1 1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES 2 ------------------------------------------------------ 3 JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING 4 In the Matter of the 2022-2023 EXECUTIVE BUDGET 5 ON HOUSING 6 ------------------------------------------------------ 7 Virtual Hearing Conducted Online via Zoom 8 January 31, 2022 9 4:06 p.m. 10 PRESIDING: 11 Senator Liz Krueger 12 Chair, Senate Finance Committee 13 Assemblywoman Helene E. Weinstein Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee 14 PRESENT: 15 Senator Thomas F. O'Mara 16 Senate Finance Committee (RM) 17 Assemblyman Edward P. Ra Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM) 18 Assemblyman Steven Cymbrowitz 19 Chair, Assembly Housing Committee 20 Senator Brian Kavanagh Chair, Senate Housing Committee 21 Assemblyman Harvey Epstein 22 Senator Pete Harckham 23 Assemblyman Michael J. Fitzpatrick 24 2 1 2022-2023 Executive Budget Housing 2 1-31-22 3 PRESENT: (Continued) 4 Assemblyman Colin Schmitt 5 Senator Brad Hoylman 6 Senator Julia Salazar 7 Senator John Liu 8 Assemblywoman Yuh-Line Niou 9 Senator Robert Jackson 10 Senator Diane J. Savino 11 Assemblywoman Linda B. Rosenthal 12 Assemblywoman Alicia Hyndman 13 Senator Pamela Helming 14 Assemblywoman Chantel Jackson 15 Senator James Tedisco 16 Assemblyman Harry B. Bronson 17 Senator Zellnor Myrie 18 Assemblywoman Latoya Joyner 19 Assemblywoman Dr. Anna R. Kelles 20 Assemblyman Jonathan Rivera 21 Assemblywoman Latrice Walker 22 Assemblyman Mike Lawler 23 Senator Jabari Brisport 24 Assemblywoman Rodneyse Bichotte Hermelyn 3 1 2022-2023 Executive Budget Housing 2 1-31-22 3 PRESENT: (Continued) 4 Assemblyman Demond Meeks 5 Assemblyman Chris Burdick 6 Senator John W. Mannion 7 Assemblywoman Rebecca A. Seawright 8 Senator Phil Boyle 9 Assemblywoman Maritza Davila 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 4 1 2022-2023 Executive Budget Housing 2 1-31-22 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 RuthAnne Visnauskas Commissioner & CEO 6 New York State Homes and Community Renewal 10 18 7 Barika Williams 8 Executive Director Association for Neighborhood 9 and Housing Development (ANHD) -and- 10 Erin Burns-Maine Chief of Staff and 11 VP of Policy Community Preservation Corporation 12 -and- Rachel Fee 13 Executive Director New York Housing Conference 14 -and- Mary Robinson 15 CEO Habitat for Humanity of NYS 16 -and- Baaba Halm 17 VP and NY Market Leader Enterprise Community Partners 146 165 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 5 1 2022-2023 Executive Budget Housing 2 1-31-22 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont. 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Fannie Lou Diane Member Leader 6 Neighbors Together -and- 7 Karen Blondel President 8 Red Hook West Tenant Association -and- 9 Kassi Keith Leader 10 VOCAL-NY -and- 11 Pablo Estupiņan Director 12 Community Action for Safe Apartments (CASA) 181 198 13 Christie Peale 14 CEO/Executive Director Center for NYC Neighborhoods 15 -and- Jay Flemma 16 Senior Foreclosure Defense Attorney 17 Legal Aid Society of Mid-New York 18 -and- Jeremy Bunyaner 19 Staff Attorney CAMBA Legal Services 20 -and- Malika Conner 21 Director of Organizing Right to Counsel Coalition 215 230 22 23 24 6 1 2022-2023 Executive Budget Housing 2 1-31-22 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont. 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Michael Borges Executive Director 6 Rural Housing Coalition of New York 7 -and- Blair W. Sebastian 8 Director New York State Rural Advocates 9 -and- Athena Bernkopf 10 Project Director East Harlem/El Barrio 11 Community Land Trust -and- 12 Elise Goldin Campaign Organizer 13 New Economy Project New York City Community 14 Land Initiative -and- 15 Mark Streb Executive Director 16 Neighborhood Preservation Coalition of NYS 17 -and- Joseph Condon 18 General Counsel Community Housing 19 Improvement Program 241 263 20 21 22 23 24 7 1 2022-2023 Executive Budget Housing 2 1-31-22 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont. 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Ben Anderson Director of Economic Mobility 6 and Health Policy Children's Defense Fund-New York 7 -and- Sonal Jessel 8 Director of Policy Lead Free Kids New York 9 -and- Paul Webster 10 Director of Programs Clean and Healthy New York 279 290 11 Elaine Gross 12 President ERASE Racism 13 -and- Katherine Leitch 14 Senior Policy Analyst Citizens Housing and 15 Planning Council -and- 16 Samuel Stein Housing Policy Analyst 17 Community Service Society 297 306 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 8 1 2022-2023 Executive Budget Housing 2 1-31-22 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont. 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Casey Berkovitz Coalition Coordinator 6 ADU New York -and- 7 Sally Santangelo Executive Director 8 CNY Fair Housing -and- 9 Marlene Zarfes Executive Director 10 Westchester Residential Opportunities 11 -and- Ryan Chavez 12 Program Director Cypress Hills Local 13 Development Corporation -and- 14 Timothy Foley CEO 15 Building and Realty Institute of Westchester and the 16 Mid-Hudson Region 312 329 17 William J. Simmons President 18 NYS Public Housing Authorities Directors Association 19 -and- Elise Levy 20 Tenant Organizer and Advocate Housing Conservation Coordinators 21 -and- Christine Hughes 22 Tenant Leader Affordable Housing Leaders Group 23 Housing Conservation Coordinators 351 359 24 9 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Good afternoon. 2 I'm Helene Weinstein, chair of the Assembly 3 Ways and Means Committee and cochair of 4 today's hearing. 5 Today we begin the fourth in a series 6 of hearings conducted by the joint fiscal 7 committees of the Legislature regarding the 8 Governor's proposed budget for fiscal year 9 2022-2023, and today is the hearing regarding 10 Housing. 11 I'll introduce the members of the 12 Assembly who are here. Then I'll turn it 13 over to Senator Krueger, the cochair of 14 today's hearing, the chair of the Finance 15 Committee, to introduce her colleagues, and 16 we will have our ranking members introduce 17 their colleagues. 18 And just to remind witnesses -- 19 actually, Commissioner, you'll have 20 10 minutes to make a presentation. We 21 already have circulated your testimony, so 22 feel free to not use all the 10 minutes. And 23 then there will be -- we'll go to the chairs 24 for 10 minutes, up to 10 minutes each, to 10 1 ask -- 2 (Zoom interruption.) 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Make sure 4 you're muted if you're not speaking. So 5 Senator Krueger and I should be the only ones 6 unmuted. 7 The other witnesses, once we leave the 8 governmental witnesses, the witnesses will, 9 as I mentioned to my colleagues, mostly be in 10 panels, and each witness will have three 11 minutes to make a presentation and then 12 members will have three minutes to ask a 13 question of the panel. 14 And just keep an eye on the clock. 15 The time sometimes goes faster than you think 16 it does. 17 So I think with that, as long as 18 everybody adheres to our guidelines, I want 19 to introduce the New York State Homes and 20 Community Renewal Commissioner RuthAnne 21 Visnauskas, who is the commissioner and CEO. 22 And RuthAnne, the floor is yours for 23 10 minutes. 24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Thank you. 11 1 Good afternoon, Chairs Krueger, Weinstein, 2 Kavanagh, Cymbrowitz, and distinguished 3 members of the Legislature. 4 My name is RuthAnne Visnauskas, and 5 I'm commissioner and CEO of New York State 6 Homes and Community Renewal. I'm honored to 7 testify before you today on the housing 8 portion of Governor Kathy Hochul's Executive 9 Budget proposal for the 2022-2023 state 10 fiscal year. 11 The Executive Budget lays out a 12 comprehensive and thoughtful blueprint for 13 addressing New York's housing and 14 homelessness crisis. It recognizes housing 15 access as critical to the state's economic 16 recovery efforts and commitment to social 17 justice, and it addresses longstanding 18 systemic inequities and brings us closer to 19 our goals of achieving a cleaner, greener 20 climate and closing the gap in digital 21 connectivity for lower-income families. 22 The centerpiece of the Governor's 23 budget for housing is a new $25 billion 24 five-year Housing Plan designed to build on 12 1 our current plan with the preservation or 2 construction of another 100,000 affordable 3 homes, including 10,000 supportive 4 apartments. The new plan will serve low- and 5 moderate-income renters and homeowners; 6 preserve and protect the existing housing 7 stock; support individuals, families, 8 seniors, and people with special needs; 9 invest in manufactured homes and parks across 10 the state; and assist those experiencing 11 homelessness and housing insecurity. 12 We are at the finish line of the 13 state's first affordable Housing Plan and, as 14 we close out this fiscal year in March, we 15 are confident that we will meet that first 16 goal. This is a shared success, and I could 17 not be prouder of my team and all of our 18 partners. 19 As we look ahead, the elements of the 20 new Housing Plan will be shaped by our 21 accomplishments as well as the many 22 conversations we have had with our partners 23 across the state this past summer and fall. 24 To be sure, the path to another 100,000 13 1 affordable homes will be guided by the events 2 and lessons of the last two years. 3 More specifically, our aim will be to 4 address the community health disparities 5 exposed during the pandemic, erase the 6 redlines that still block people of color 7 from homeownership and housing choice, expand 8 housing access and supply in historically 9 underinvested areas, support statewide goals 10 for clean energy and green jobs, and bridge 11 the digital divide. 12 The new Housing Plan expands resources 13 for electrification and weatherization that 14 benefit our health, safety and environment, 15 helping us achieve the state's essential 16 climate goals. We've also included a pilot 17 program to spur innovation in affordable 18 housing governance and construction methods. 19 To accomplish all of this, we will 20 once again rely on your support and 21 partnership to help us cement New York's 22 reputation as an innovative leader in 23 compassionate, thoughtful and purpose-driven 24 affordable housing and community development. 14 1 However, these investments alone cannot 2 address the root cause of our housing 3 shortage. Governor Hochul's Executive Budget 4 includes several proposals to help the state 5 boost its overall housing supply and 6 affordable housing supply by easing or 7 removing restrictive land-use regulations 8 that are barriers to housing production. To 9 this end, we're proposing some strong, 10 commonsense changes. 11 The Governor's budget will encourage 12 increasing our housing supply by requiring 13 localities to allow accessory dwelling units 14 in single-family neighborhoods; requiring 15 localities to allow multifamily development 16 opportunities in transit-rich areas; removing 17 the state's cap on residential density in 18 high-density neighborhoods in New York City; 19 and easing restrictions on the conversion of 20 hotels and commercial buildings into housing. 21 But these actions are not enough. 22 Providing equal and fair access to housing is 23 just as important as building new homes and 24 apartments. As part of our mission to reduce 15 1 housing insecurity, our social justice agenda 2 will help improve access to housing for 3 people who have been involved in the criminal 4 justice system or have negative credit 5 histories. We will combat housing 6 discrimination statewide by expanding the 7 state's fair housing testing program, 8 particularly in counties not previously 9 served by local fair housing organizations 10 but where suspected systemic discrimination 11 exists. 12 And we will seek to reduce unjust 13 evictions by making free legal counsel 14 available to low- and middle-income tenants 15 in eviction proceedings. This proposal, the 16 Eviction Prevention Legal Assistance Program, 17 will provide renters a measure of protection 18 from the economic, physical and emotional 19 harm that comes from being displaced. With 20 proper access to legal representation, we 21 know that more than 80 percent of tenants are 22 able to remain in their homes. 23 We believe that our plan and proposals 24 offer rational alternatives to the status 16 1 quo. They're rooted in justice and fairness 2 and, most important, compassion for all 3 New Yorkers, whatever their ability, income 4 or history. We're excited for the 5 opportunity to continue to create 6 high-quality affordable housing opportunities 7 that build strong and healthy communities. 8 And on behalf of the New Yorkers we 9 serve, I am truly grateful for the 10 Legislature's support, and I ask for your 11 continued commitment to securing the 12 resources and advancing the legislation we 13 need to make a real difference in peoples' 14 lives and to meet the needs of our diverse 15 communities. 16 Thank you. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you, 18 Commissioner. 19 I was so -- we were so anxious to hear 20 from you that I totally forgot to introduce 21 my colleagues who are here with us today. So 22 let me -- we kept you waiting so long, we 23 just wanted to let you get started. 24 So I wanted to just take a moment to 17 1 introduce the Assemblymembers, and then 2 Senator Krueger will introduce the Senators. 3 So we have with us our Assembly chair, 4 Assemblyman Cymbrowitz; Assemblyman Bronson; 5 Assemblyman Burdick; Assemblyman Epstein; 6 Assemblywoman Hyndman; Assemblywoman Jackson; 7 Assemblywoman Joyner; Assemblywoman Kelles; 8 Assemblyman Meeks; Assemblywoman Niou; 9 Assemblyman Rivera; Assemblywoman Rosenthal; 10 and Assemblywoman Seawright. 11 Assemblyman Ra, do you want to 12 introduce your colleagues who are here? 13 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Sure. Hi. We are 14 joined by Assemblyman Fitzpatrick, our ranker 15 on Housing, and Assemblyman Lawler. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 17 Senator Krueger, would you please 18 introduce your colleagues. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 20 I see Senator Robert Jackson, 21 Senator Leroy Comrie, of course our Housing 22 Chair Brian Kavanagh, Senator John Mannion, 23 Senator Zellnor Myrie, Senator Pam Helming, 24 Senator John Liu, Senator Pete Harckham. And 18 1 that's just the question askers so far. 2 We also have Senator Phil Boyle, 3 Senator Julia Salazar, Senator Diane Savino, 4 Senator Jim Tedisco, Senator Jabari Brisport, 5 Senator Brad Hoylman. 6 I think I've got us all, both sides. 7 Thank you. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. So then 9 now we will go to our Assembly Housing chair, 10 Assemblyman Steven Cymbrowitz, for 11 10 minutes, please, on the clock. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN CYMBROWITZ: Thank you 13 very much. Thank you, Chairs Weinstein, 14 Krueger. I want to shout out to my colleague 15 Senator Kavanagh. We always say hello at 16 these hearings. 17 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Hello, 18 Assemblymember. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN CYMBROWITZ: Welcome, 20 Commissioner Visnauskas. I want to 21 personally thank you for being such a strong 22 advocate for the five-year plan, and want to 23 congratulate you for all you've accomplished 24 in the previous five-year plan. I know that 19 1 we're heading toward the finish line of doing 2 that, and look forward to the next five 3 years. 4 I wanted to spend a little time 5 talking about homeownership. That's a major 6 issue that we have found, traveling around 7 the state, that there are so many people who 8 are renting and they could pay for a mortgage 9 with those dollars that they're paying for 10 rent, and we need to help them. 11 Can we talk a little bit about -- I 12 know that in the 2021-'22 budget we included 13 $539 million for the Homeowner Assistance 14 Fund that just began taking applications 15 January 3rd. You know, I was wondering if 16 you have any updates on this process, and 17 then talk about the allocation in this year's 18 housing plan that includes $400 million for 19 homeownership projects. 20 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure, I 21 would be happy to talk about both those 22 things, thank you. 23 So for the Housing Assistance Fund we 24 were -- we worked very hard to get our 20 1 application into Treasury, we were very 2 excited to be first in the country to be 3 approved. We started our marketing right 4 around Thanksgiving so people would have a 5 sort of nice long period of time to 6 understand the program and their eligibility 7 and get their documents in order. And as you 8 said, we opened January 3rd. 9 We anticipated being open for at least 10 30 days, and we're just about at that 30-day 11 mark. We have a little over 20,000 12 applications received and completed. And we 13 are not quite at our, you know, full sort of 14 spend, so we will stay open and keep 15 evaluating. 16 You know, the process with the 17 mortgages involves us reaching out to the 18 banks and making sure that homeowners have 19 been offered every program and opportunity 20 that the banks can provide for homeowners for 21 their mortgages, so it's going to take us a 22 little longer to sort of do that 23 back-and-forth. 24 But we feel very good about the 21 1 program. We have a very high percentage of 2 socially disadvantaged applicants, which was 3 one of our sort of key features of this, is 4 making sure we are getting to people that 5 don't traditionally get access to 6 governmental programs. 7 So we will remain in communication 8 with the Legislature and with the public 9 about how we're doing on the applications, 10 but so far so good on that front. 11 On the homeownership in the Housing 12 Plan, we -- there are sort of two sides to 13 the homeownership with sort of the supply 14 side and the demand side. 15 So on the demand side we have our 16 SONYMA platform that provides mortgages to 17 first-time homebuyers, and we have made a lot 18 of changes there on the demand side to make 19 sure that we are increasing our down payment 20 assistance. We rolled out -- and I talked 21 about this last year -- a program called Give 22 Us Credit to make sure that people weren't 23 being denied who had historically been denied 24 for credit reasons for mortgages. And we 22 1 have shifted very much to the supply side of 2 that. 3 And as you can see in the Housing 4 Plan, with the $400 million we want to both 5 keep going on existing programs like 6 Legacy Cities, which we launched last year, 7 which utilizes vacant properties in upstate 8 cities to rehabilitate them for 9 homeownership, but also making sure that 10 we're getting a production of new 11 one-to-four-family homes, condos, co-ops, 12 sort of whatever the right homeownership 13 option may be across the state, to get at -- 14 as you said, there may be people who have 15 income to pay, but they can't find an 16 affordable house to buy. So we are really 17 hoping to make a dent in that as we look at 18 this next five-year plan with the 19 homeownership dollars. 20 ASSEMBLYMAN CYMBROWITZ: Can you talk 21 about the strategies that you're going to be 22 employing in order to reach the people who 23 really need that assistance? 24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we try to 23 1 be very data-driven in what we do. When we 2 launched Give Us Credit last year, we looked 3 around the state and looked at places where 4 we saw homeowners of color getting denied at 5 twice the rate as white homeowners, holding 6 constant for income, and made sure that we 7 from a marketing and outreach and grassroots 8 perspective were very heavily in those areas. 9 And that will hold true going forward. 10 We really try to make sure that we are 11 utilizing our network of organizations around 12 the state, whether that's legal service 13 providers or nonprofit housing providers, to 14 make sure that people are aware, especially 15 those who are, you know, often least likely 16 to have access to or sort of know about 17 government programs, to make sure that 18 they're the ones who can avail themselves of 19 these opportunities. 20 ASSEMBLYMAN CYMBROWITZ: Moving on to 21 public housing. Public housing authorities 22 outside the city were identified in this 23 proposed budget to receive additional 24 funding. Can you discuss why NYCHA was 24 1 excluded and not provided any new funding? 2 And if you can talk about -- I know 3 we've discussed in the past the Preservation 4 Trust and the importance -- the fact that 5 there will not be any Build It Back Better 6 money coming and that the only way that NYCHA 7 can be saved is through the Preservation 8 Trust. 9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would say 10 I haven't given up completely on Build It 11 Back Better. I am still advocating and 12 hopeful that there will be not just funding 13 for public housing authorities, of which a 14 large share of that would go to NYCHA, but 15 also many of the other things that were in 16 Build Back Better for housing. So we're 17 going to keep fighting on that front to try 18 to get those things. 19 In terms of the budget for NYCHA, you 20 know, at the time that the budget was getting 21 pulled together, Build Back Better was 22 really -- you know, still seemed somewhat -- 23 very much alive, with the potential for 24 $40 billion to come to NYCHA. So I think 25 1 that's one of the reasons why you don't see 2 capital for NYCHA. 3 We do have capital in for 4 rest-of-state. We were very thankful to get 5 an additional slug of capital last year, and 6 we haven't spent all of that, and now we've 7 put a new ask in for another five years. 8 We are still working with many, many 9 wonderful public housing authorities around 10 the state. I was just up in Schenectady in 11 December looking at what they have done to 12 transform their public housing stock. And so 13 there's a lot of great work still to be done. 14 So we're really excited and looking forward 15 to working with the rest-of-state housing 16 authorities on their renovation plans. 17 I think as relates to the trust, you 18 know, the trust is a complicated document. 19 And NYCHA is complicated, given its sort of 20 federal, city and state sort of multiparty 21 interested parties there. I think that we 22 have tried to advocate that NYCHA needs as 23 many tools as it can get. There are, you 24 know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of 26 1 residents at NYCHA who are in much need of 2 vital repairs. And as many people know, the 3 proposal around the trust would allow NYCHA 4 to access much, much more revenue from the 5 federal government that would allow it to 6 make capital repairs at scale. 7 So we have been working with the city 8 administration and the new administration, 9 and so I think those conversations around the 10 trust will continue. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN CYMBROWITZ: Do you think 12 there's any chance that the Governor might 13 put the trust into her 30-day amendment? 14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I can't 15 speak to that. But we are certainly working 16 with the city and talking with them to better 17 understand what they need in the trust 18 legislation. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN CYMBROWITZ: In the 20 remaining time, could you just talk about the 21 change of use in New York City of certain 22 buildings and talk about additional building 23 density in New York City? How would that 24 produce more affordable housing? 27 1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So New York 2 City has not kept up with its housing supply 3 relative to population growth and job growth. 4 There are some estimates that say that the 5 city needs to build another 500,000 units of 6 housing by 2030. And at the scale at which 7 housing is produced, market-rate and 8 affordable housing is produced today, we 9 would not get there. It's a two-or-three- 10 times-fold production. 11 So we've tried to put forward in the 12 budget this year a series of solutions for 13 that, and that includes helping developers 14 convert commercial or hotels into housing. 15 That includes lifting the FAR cap to allow 16 the city to have a little more discretion 17 over where residential development is in the 18 city; that includes a tax exemption. All of 19 these tools will allow us to grow in a way 20 that will alleviate housing affordability, 21 alleviate overcrowding, and we think those 22 are important policy issues as we go forward. 23 ASSEMBLYMAN CYMBROWITZ: Thank you 24 very much. 28 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I'll move it 2 over to the Senate, but first I see that 3 Assemblywoman Maritza Davila has joined us, 4 and Assemblywoman Latrice Walker. 5 So now we go to Senator Krueger for 6 their Housing chair. 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. We're 8 going to hand it over to Senator Brian 9 Kavanagh for 10 minutes. Thank you. 10 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you very 11 much, Senator Krueger. And let me just begin 12 by thanking both Senator Krueger and 13 Assemblymember Weinstein for your marathon of 14 chairing these hearings and leading in this 15 process. 16 And also just to note, you know, our 17 own Finance staff -- Dave Frazier and Chris 18 Friend and Michael Sherman, as well as our 19 counsel staff, Nic Rangel and Nayram Gasu, 20 who have done a lot of work in preparation 21 for this, as well as Hally Chu, who is the 22 housing director on my staff. 23 And, you know, also just -- I'll 24 return the shout-out for Assemblymember 29 1 Cymbrowitz. We've worked very closely on a 2 lot of these issues for a very long time. 3 He's a terrific partner and of course taught 4 me everything I know about housing when I was 5 a young Assemblymember on his Housing 6 Committee. 7 And also my ranker in the Senate, 8 Pam Helming, whom we'll hear from shortly, 9 and the rankers on the other side, Mike 10 Fitzpatrick and Ed Ra, who I also had a lot 11 of opportunity to interact with over many 12 years in the Assembly on all of these issues. 13 So it's good to see everybody. 14 And thank you, Commissioner, for your 15 testimony today and also for your leadership 16 in the last few years. It's been really I 17 think a very productive time in housing in 18 New York, and we're looking forward to, you 19 know, an even more productive time with a 20 very substantial five-year plan. 21 Can you just begin with -- just give 22 us -- you sort of highlighted a few aspects 23 of the five-year plan. Can you just talk a 24 little bit about how this plan differs from 30 1 the preceding five years? 2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure. 3 So, you know, in many ways our sort of 4 production is limited by federal resources. 5 Sort of the backbone of our work is the 6 volume cap and the 9 percent tax credits that 7 we get from the federal government, and we 8 had been very hopeful for the second half of 9 last year that there would be a Build Back 10 Better bill that would allow for the 11 expansion of both those things. You know, 12 such as it is, we are where we are, and 13 that's not exactly on the table, although we 14 will keep, as I said, sort of advocating and 15 working for that. 16 So what you see in our new plan is 17 sort of maintaining a lot of the programs 18 that, you know, as you all will recall, when 19 we did this five years ago, we didn't really 20 have a series of programs and a five-year 21 plan. And so we have gotten the industry 22 across the state I think somewhat acclimated 23 to a series of programs around new 24 construction, supportive housing, senior 31 1 housing, renovating our Mitchell-Lama housing 2 and our public housing in a series of 3 programs. So we really thought it was 4 important to maintain those. 5 We have increased funding for many of 6 those programs for a variety of reasons. In 7 the original plan we did have some sort of 8 additional dollars sort of from previous 9 times. So we had sort of more than the 10 2.5 billion that we started with at the 11 beginning of the last five years. 12 But we've made a couple of changes. 13 One is that in order to align with the CLCPA, 14 we have sort of embedded electrification into 15 our new construction and will be rolling it 16 into all of our preservation work too, which 17 will come -- sort of follow a little bit 18 after our new construction. But so our costs 19 went up as a result of that, and you will see 20 that in here. 21 We also added a sort of new focused 22 line item specifically to electrify the 23 existing housing stock to make sure that 24 low-income tenants and buildings in 32 1 low-income communities don't get left behind 2 as we go to a sort of carbon-neutral housing 3 stock. 4 So I think those are two sort of 5 fundamental things. 6 In addition to that, as the 7 Assemblymember had mentioned, we have a much 8 bigger investment into homeownership 9 programs. I think that, you know, you don't 10 have to look very far in the housing policy 11 world to read about the racial wealth gap in 12 homeownership. And so we are very much 13 leaning into that with a series of -- with 14 this funding that will allow us to really get 15 at supply side housing production, affordable 16 housing production. 17 So I think those are probably some of 18 the highlights I would call out. 19 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I appreciate that. 20 That's a helpful review. 21 I'm going to talk about a few of those 22 issues, but I want to go back to something 23 that Assemblymember Cymbrowitz talked about, 24 that public housing, especially the NYCHA 33 1 commitment -- we have seen, I think, you 2 know, some inadequate investments in capital 3 from all sides in NYCHA. But this bill 4 doesn't have any. And, you know, Steve asked 5 you, like, you know, is there some assumption 6 that we might get Build Back Better. You 7 said you were still hopeful. I'm hopeful as 8 well. 9 But is there -- assuming we get to 10 March 31st and we don't have Build Back 11 Better dollars for NYCHA, would it be 12 appropriate for us to be rethinking what 13 we're enacting this year to ensure that there 14 is significant capital for NYCHA? 15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: As you all 16 probably know from asking me in years past, 17 the money that's in the Housing Budget for 18 NYCHA is subject to an agreement largely 19 between NYCHA and DASNY as to how those funds 20 get spent and the scope of work. And often 21 you all ask me for sort of an update on that, 22 which I usually provide sort of a light 23 update but I'm often sort of -- I'm not 24 really -- we are not really directive of 34 1 those funds or involved in those capital 2 funds. 3 So I wouldn't sort of put my thumb on 4 the scales to say whether it's appropriate or 5 not. As you would say, it's been -- there 6 has been funding for NYCHA in the past. I 7 think the scale of obviously the $40 billion 8 coming from the federal government is the 9 scale on which NYCHA's needs are, which are, 10 you know, much different than what we would 11 be able to provide at the state level. 12 But -- and as I said, I think we 13 remain open and optimistic to push the 14 federal government to really provide NYCHA 15 with the level of funding that it needs, 16 rather than have it go another generation 17 without that. 18 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. I'm not 19 going to belabor this now, but just to say, 20 for the record, I mean the notion of DASNY 21 being involved in that was I think a 22 particular predisposition of the prior 23 governor. So I think we should be revisiting 24 this question of whether, you know, our 35 1 housing agency can consider the housing needs 2 of New York City residents as well -- you 3 know, public housing residents as well as 4 those outside the city. 5 On the electrification, recognizing 6 that most of the -- I guess most of the 7 adjustments are about increases in costs for 8 development, how much money is in this budget 9 for retrofitting existing buildings for 10 electrification? 11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we tried 12 to build into our programs -- you know, one 13 of the I think challenges for owners trying 14 to do this work is having to go in silos to 15 multiple different agencies and get access to 16 funding. 17 So we built into our -- on both our 18 new construction and our multifamily 19 preservation program, assumptions that came 20 out of the CLCPA work which we've spent the 21 better part of two years doing, to make sure 22 that we can, you know, pay for those either 23 electric-ready or actual electrification, 24 depending on sort of the building stock and 36 1 the technology available, within these 2 existing funds. 3 So I don't have an exact sort of 4 number, but we worked on this -- built sort 5 of the budget with those costs included. 6 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Could your staff 7 try -- could somebody try to take a look at 8 the budget and figure out how -- like 9 presumably various things were increased by 10 various percentages. It would be helpful, I 11 think, given -- we know there's a massive 12 scale, but I think it would be helpful to 13 know how much we're investing in that work. 14 And as you know, I think there's 15 also -- you know, there's a proposal for a 16 requirement of electrified buildings in the 17 future in the private sector as well. And I 18 have the Electric Building Act I've been 19 working on with Assemblymember Gallagher and 20 others. But I'd like to focus on that as 21 this process is unfolding. 22 The City of New York estimates that 23 when tenants are represented and they have 24 legal services during eviction proceedings, 37 1 they are very likely to remain in their 2 home -- about 84 percent, I think, is the 3 number there. Is that -- given that this 4 budget is appropriating additional money for 5 legal representation -- first of all, I guess 6 it's $35 million in the budget. Is that -- 7 how much legal representation might that 8 provide? And is -- what is your assessment 9 of how much -- could we replicate the 10 success -- that rate in New York City in 11 upstate communities if we were to provide 12 adequate funding for legal representation? 13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So this is 14 something that is very important to the 15 Governor in the budget. And as many people 16 saw, there was $25 million actually that came 17 out of the ERAP funding sort of as a seed for 18 this. And so we looked at some data for 19 rest-of-state around evictions and around 20 costs, and there's sort of a variety of 21 estimates about what the demand and the costs 22 might be. 23 So this is a sort of projection. I 24 don't think we really, you know, know what 38 1 the full uptake will be. But we're very 2 committed to getting this out the door, you 3 know, as a test to then see sort of what the 4 real demand in uptake will be. 5 But we -- you know, we agree with you 6 that the percent success rate in New York 7 City certainly merits us doing this in the 8 rest of the state and giving people access. 9 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Just to be clear, 10 you're not projecting that this meets the 11 whole cost of legal representation statewide, 12 is that fair? 13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't 14 think we know -- when we looked, we found 15 many estimates that were very wide in their 16 numbers. So I think we don't really know. 17 And this is an attempt to put a number in the 18 budget and evaluate. 19 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. Again, I 20 think as we continue negotiations, I think 21 we'd like to get a sense of how that -- you 22 know, how widespread -- how available legal 23 representation that would -- how available 24 that would make legal representation in 39 1 various jurisdictions. 2 Just one quick question. There is 3 funding for Neighborhood and Rural 4 Preservation programs that I think are 5 straight-lined against last year's adopted 6 budget, which is an improvement, because it 7 includes some legislative adds that I think 8 we put in last year. 9 There is still no money for the 10 coalitions, for the Neighborhood and Rural 11 Preservation Coalitions respectively. I 12 think in the past we've sought to make sure 13 they had funding to administer their 14 centralized services. 15 Is that -- I mean, does the Executive 16 Budget reflect some skepticism of the value 17 of that, or is it sort of an oversight or 18 just -- 19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think that 20 we had thought that the coalitions were 21 included in that. So maybe we can just get 22 back to you on that. 23 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. Our staff 24 analysis has said they're not, so we would 40 1 appreciate that question. 2 And I think I will come back for 3 another round of questions if our chairs will 4 permit me, but my time is up now. So thank 5 you for -- 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Your time is up 7 now, so we'll talk about that later. Thank 8 you, Brian. 9 Chair Weinstein. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: The Housing 11 ranker, Assemblyman Fitzpatrick, for five 12 minutes. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN FITZPATRICK: Yes, thank 14 you, Madam Chair. Welcome, Commissioner. 15 Great to see everybody. 16 Commissioner, just let me ask you, 17 with regard to the regulated housing stock, 18 do you have any concern about its future 19 condition, you know, given that there was a 20 rather drastic reduction in the number of 21 MCIs? 22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We have not 23 seen a large uptick in complaints. So, you 24 know, I think it depends on what you use as 41 1 your metric for the housing stock. But at 2 this time we aren't concerned that there's 3 been an adverse impact on the housing stock. 4 As we can see in, you know, data. 5 ASSEMBLYMAN FITZPATRICK: I see. All 6 right. Do you have any statistics on the 7 number of individual apartment improvements 8 undertaken by owners in 2022 and 2021? 9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We have a 10 couple of thousand IAIs that have been 11 uploaded into the public database that was 12 included as part of the HSTPA legislation. I 13 don't know the exact number from this year, 14 but I'd be happy to follow up and get that to 15 you. 16 ASSEMBLYMAN FITZPATRICK: Okay, thank 17 you. 18 And then what is the number of 19 harassment complaints filed in '19, '20 and 20 '21 and the number of owners who were found 21 guilty? 22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't have 23 those off the top of my head, but I'd be 24 happy to follow up with those as well. 42 1 ASSEMBLYMAN FITZPATRICK: Okay -- 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Just a 3 clarification. You meant 2019 and 2020 -- 4 ASSEMBLYMAN FITZPATRICK: Yeah, 2019, 5 2020. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You said 1920, 7 and I thought that was a bit of a stretch -- 8 ASSEMBLYMAN FITZPATRICK: I meant 9 2019, sorry. 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN FITZPATRICK: Great. 12 And, Commissioner, with regard to the 13 accessory dwelling units, what was the 14 rationale in frankly removing local control 15 and local zoning and interfering with local 16 zoning here? What is the rationale of the 17 Governor in doing this? 18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So as I 19 mentioned a little bit earlier, there is -- 20 we are not keeping pace with our housing 21 production based on our population growth and 22 our job growth. And so there's a real demand 23 for housing, especially in downstate -- 24 Long Island, New York City, Westchester, 43 1 Hudson Valley. You know, there's an 2 affordability issue. Many people are doubled 3 up. You could argue that many people in our 4 homeless shelter system are there for purely 5 economic reasons because they can't afford 6 housing. 7 And so accessory dwelling units is a 8 way for there to be the creation of 9 additional housing supply. You know, it can 10 be affordable, but it could just be 11 additional housing supply. It allows seniors 12 to either receive additional income in -- you 13 know, perhaps if they're on a fixed income 14 and in a place where taxes are going up, it 15 would allow them to move into an accessory 16 dwelling unit, allow their family to move 17 into the larger home, especially at a time 18 where I think there's a lot of 19 intergenerational care, whether it's for a 20 parent or for a child and the families have 21 gotten -- sort of spreading among the 22 generations for that type of support. 23 And so we see accessory dwelling units 24 as giving homeowners the opportunity to have 44 1 more choice in where they live, to have more 2 affordability options, potentially to have 3 income options, at a time when we really are 4 in need of more housing supply. 5 ASSEMBLYMAN FITZPATRICK: Well, let me 6 ask you, you have situations where you have 7 quarter-acre zoning -- I know in Suffolk 8 County, for example, all development is 9 guided by the health code. You know, we live 10 above an aquifer, so overburdening that 11 aquifer and, you know, increased density. 12 We're already -- I mean, a number of 13 communities on Long Island are doing pretty 14 good work around the transit-oriented 15 development model. And, you know, our 16 limitations are sewers. We could use more 17 sewer money to develop that. And that is 18 becoming a more popular option. Downtown 19 redevelopment, second- and third-floor 20 apartments above stores along Main Streets. 21 But, you know, people -- regardless of 22 where they come from, they move out to the 23 suburbs to live in a single-family home. 24 And, you know, in my years on the town 45 1 council in Smithtown we were always having 2 problems with basement apartments, illegal 3 apartments and absentee landlords that were 4 becoming a huge problem in suburban areas. 5 And I think the way -- from what I've 6 read so far, we may have those problems 7 again, in spite of the fact that there's a 8 one-year requirement to live there. If 9 that's not monitored very closely, I think 10 that will be gamed, and we're going to have 11 some real problems in the suburbs. And I'm 12 not crazy about this proposal, and I think it 13 needs to be thought through. 14 Do you have any comment? 15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think I 16 would say two things. One is I don't think 17 anybody wants illegal apartments, so I think 18 providing sort of a framework for this allows 19 those apartments to be legal where people are 20 adding basement apartments or attic 21 apartments or whatever that may be. 22 And we put in the bill, you know, to 23 be somewhat responsive to that issue, that 24 municipalities can obviously take into 46 1 consideration health and safety issues as 2 they create their own sort of zoning to allow 3 the accessory dwelling units. 4 So we understand that there are 5 obviously health and safety issues, whether 6 it's sewers or flood plain issues, and that 7 those should be taken into account. 8 ASSEMBLYMAN FITZPATRICK: Okay. My 9 time is up. Thank you, Commissioner. 10 Thank you, Madam Chair. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We'll go to 12 Senator Krueger. 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very 14 much. Senator Pam Helming for five minutes, 15 the ranker on Housing. 16 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you, Senator 17 Krueger. 18 Commissioner, it's great to see you 19 again. Happy New Year. 20 And as always, I want to take a moment 21 and recognize both you and your incredible 22 team. I mean, you're just doing tremendous 23 things around the entire state and for that 24 I'm truly appreciative. And while I know, 47 1 you know, we may not always agree on policy, 2 I think there's a lot that we can join 3 together on to do better for residents of New 4 York State. 5 So I wanted to talk a little bit -- an 6 example of that, I think, is the five-year 7 Housing Plan. I think it's absolutely 8 remarkable. But I'm curious, how are we 9 going to ensure that that funding is shared 10 with our suburban, rural and upstate -- how 11 is it going to be used to address our upstate 12 housing needs, that they're equally 13 considered? 14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we have 15 a -- I would say two things. 16 One is we -- as Senator Kavanagh 17 mentioned, I think funding of our rural 18 preservation organizations is key to that, 19 because they really are our eyes and ears on 20 the ground that help make sure people are 21 aware of our programs and can access them. 22 And whether that is, you know, 23 preserving an existing rural multifamily 24 building, of which there are many in the 48 1 state, whether it's a manufactured home 2 park -- and we have, in the last five years, 3 as you know, rolled out a series of programs 4 to make sure that people can have access to 5 mortgages, to make sure that people can get 6 new homes and to make sure that there's 7 funding for parks and for infrastructure and 8 really trying to shore up that part of our 9 housing stock which is often very rural. 10 So we've sort of tried, through a 11 series of our programs, to make sure, whether 12 it's, you know, public housing or 13 preservation or multifamily or on the 14 single-family side, that we will be getting 15 to those rural housing needs as much as we'll 16 be getting to the urban ones. 17 SENATOR HELMING: I appreciate that. 18 And I'll be taking a closer look too to see 19 how it breaks down, to make sure that it does 20 feel that in upstate we're getting our fair 21 share. 22 I will tell you I was happy last year 23 that the HONDA language, we were able to get 24 that changed, right, so that it excluded 49 1 areas outside of New York City -- but then 2 extremely disappointed to hear that the only 3 projects funded were within New York City, 4 and that there's language that exists to 5 direct the additional funding to New York 6 City properties. 7 Just changing subjects for a minute, 8 we've -- this has been mentioned. The 9 Executive Budget includes a proposal for 10 35 million to be appropriated to support 11 legal representation for eviction cases 12 outside of New York City. 13 During your opening remarks, and I 14 think during Senator Kavanagh's questioning, 15 it was my understanding that this funding 16 will be earmarked solely for tenants. Is 17 that accurate? 18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: The funding 19 will go to legal service providers, to the 20 organizations themselves, so that they will 21 be able to provide legal representation for 22 tenants. 23 SENATOR HELMING: Is there any 24 financial assistance that's available to our 50 1 home providers, especially our small 2 mom-and-pop property owners? 3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: That's a 4 fair -- that's a fair question, and I think 5 we would be happy to work with you on that. 6 SENATOR HELMING: So at this point the 7 answer is no, though, right? 8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't 9 think as drafted. I think it's intended to 10 provide legal representation for tenants who, 11 you know, in most cases are often not even 12 aware that they can have access to legal 13 representation or that they should get it and 14 that their outcomes might be better. Most of 15 these cases are often found in the case of 16 the landlord, so I think the need was seen as 17 on the tenant side to make sure they could 18 have fair standing in court. 19 But, you know, it's a fair comment, I 20 think, about smaller landlords, and we could 21 talk about that. 22 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you. 23 So we all know, we've all heard from 24 them, that the housing providers throughout 51 1 the state, especially the mom-and-pops that I 2 mentioned, they're really struggling to 3 continue to operate because of the 4 significant rental arrears. And I know 5 there's an effort being made to try and 6 secure additional federal dollars. But 7 what's going to happen if we're unable to do 8 that? Is the state prepared to step up and 9 cover these rental arrears for the small 10 mom-and-pop property owners? 11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So my 12 understanding -- and this is more in the 13 purview of OTDA than it is for HCR, is that 14 there's some funding in the budget that I 15 think can be potentially targeted towards the 16 rental arrears programs should there not be 17 enough funding that comes through at the 18 federal level. 19 SENATOR HELMING: Okay. And just real 20 quickly, the Executive Budget proposes 21 $77 million for areas specifically impacted 22 by Hurricanes Sandy, Irene and Lee. Is there 23 any funding that you're aware of for the 24 communities along Lake Ontario that have just 52 1 been devastated by flooding that could be 2 attributed to not only rain events but the 3 implementation of Plan 2014? 4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So the 5 funding that's in the budget for the 6 Governor's Office for Storm Recovery is, as 7 you said, for Irene, Sandy and Lee, and is 8 meant to complete a series of existing 9 community reconstruction and small sort of 10 infrastructure projects. 11 I think we are happy to, as we have in 12 the past, sort of work with you on funding as 13 other needs come up for the shoreline 14 communities. You know, we have the large 15 effort from a couple of years ago working on 16 all those infrastructure projects. But 17 happy, I think, to reconnect on those with 18 you. 19 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 21 Assemblywoman. 22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 23 Assemblywoman Joyner. 24 First I just want to acknowledge 53 1 Assemblywoman Rodneyse Bichotte Hermelyn 2 joined us earlier. 3 Assemblywoman Joyner, for three 4 minutes. 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JOYNER: Thank you. 6 Good afternoon, Commissioner. I have 7 two issues. I'll just state them up front 8 and then allow you time to address them. 9 A huge crisis is unfolding in my 10 district, in the Highbridge section of my 11 district, where an owner applied to HCR to 12 deregulate six buildings that will impact 13 over 500 tenants. The owner argues these 14 buildings should no longer be rent-stabilized 15 because the J-51 tax credits will expire. 16 What is DHCR committed to doing to 17 prevent this owner from being released from 18 his regulatory agreement? And just my 19 position, on the record, is we have an 20 affordable housing crisis and I urge the 21 agency to take all necessary efforts to 22 maintain these buildings within the 23 rent-stabilized program. That's the first 24 issue. 54 1 The second issue is with regards to 2 Findlay Houses, a senior Mitchell-Lama 3 building at 1175 Findlay Avenue. In 2018 the 4 building received a Housing Finance Agency 5 subsidy loan and was also awarded funds 6 through the Preventive Troubled Asset Program 7 to help with security upgrades and emergency 8 electric repairs. 9 The building has not seen a dime of 10 this money. What is the timeline for the 11 release of this money, and what efforts can 12 be made to expedite this process? 13 Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I'm happy to 15 answer those. 16 On your first question, I am aware of 17 that case. It is, I believe, subject to some 18 litigation, and so I'm not sure that I can 19 provide -- sort of comment specifically on it 20 other than to share your concern that we 21 are -- will certainly be very focused on 22 making sure that there's not a negative 23 impact to the tenants there. And happy to 24 follow up with you directly on that one also. 55 1 On Findlay House -- Findlay House has 2 been a challenging building for us for the 3 whole time I've been at the state, partially 4 because it had a somewhat absent owner. So 5 we are in sort of the final part of a process 6 to bring in a new owner for that building, 7 and that owner will -- while we had allocated 8 some sort of temporary funding for that, what 9 we really want to do in that building is 10 really a comprehensive renovation, like we 11 would for any project we would touch, rather 12 than sort of fixing only small, incremental 13 things. 14 So we are very much looking forward to 15 a new owner taking that on this year, very 16 shortly, and working with them to do a large 17 refinance of the whole building and give it 18 all the investment that it really needs. 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JOYNER: Okay. Well, 20 you know, time is of the essence, right? So 21 we look forward to revisiting these issues 22 and prioritizing the unfinished work that is 23 desperately needed at buildings such as 24 Findlay House. Thank you. 56 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 2 Back to the Senate. 3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Thank you 4 very much. 5 Senator Robert Jackson for three 6 minutes. 7 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you, 8 Madam Chair. 9 Commissioner, good afternoon. We've 10 been in this since 11 o'clock, and 11 continuous. But a couple of questions. 12 So can you tell me -- there's been -- 13 a lot of criticism on the 421-a has been that 14 the tax bracket -- the tax break provided to 15 developers is worth far more than the 16 affordable housing it produces, because the 17 program subsidizes the entire building, not 18 just affordable units. 19 What would Governor Hochul's proposed 20 new program change this dynamic -- how is it 21 going to change it? My understanding is that 22 there is no tax incentive whatsoever. So 23 shed some light on that, if you don't mind. 24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Happy to. 57 1 So we -- as I said before, New York 2 City and the state as a whole needs more 3 housing supply. And the lack of housing 4 supply is what we experience when we see 5 people doubled up, when we see people not 6 able to find affordable housing. We need 7 more housing. 8 So we believe that the tax incentive 9 is -- we've moved it to a new section of law 10 to sort of separate it from all the old parts 11 of 421-a. It's now in 485-w. We feel like 12 it's a critical tool to get housing produced 13 in the City of New York, rental housing. I 14 think in the absence of a tax incentive that 15 requires affordable housing, we would have 16 all market-rate housing. So we feel that the 17 tax incentive does a couple of things better 18 than the program did before. 19 Number one, we've lowered the 20 affordability in the program. So previously 21 many developers had taken the option where 22 units were at 130 percent of AMI, so we have 23 dropped that to 90 AMI and 80 AMI, which is a 24 very significant reduction both in the 58 1 household incomes it serves but also in the 2 rents that it creates. 3 And we have made that affordability 4 for all buildings that are 30 units or 5 greater permanent. 6 So this is affordable housing that can 7 get built in neighborhoods that stays there 8 forever. It doesn't expire when the tax 9 exemption expires, it doesn't expire when the 10 regulatory agreement expires. It gets built 11 into the fabric. And we think it's 12 important, as the city grows, to make sure we 13 get real affordability in all those 14 neighborhoods. 15 SENATOR JACKSON: Do you think that 16 this change that she's proposing, is it going 17 to cost the taxpayers more in tax credits or 18 is it going to cost less? And is it going to 19 build more affordable housing for the people 20 that really need it? 21 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We think 22 that it will cost less. We have taken 23 portions of the tax exemption from the prior 24 program and reduced them, so now the benefit 59 1 is less than it was. For a subset of the 2 buildings, it will cost less. 3 And we think that dropping the 4 affordability, again, from sort of 120, 130 5 down to 80 or 90 is more meaningful 6 affordability. You know, a 130 AMI apartment 7 for a single person is someone who makes 8 $107,000 a year. This would drop that -- 9 this is at the upper end -- to someone who 10 makes more like $65,000 a year and that's at 11 80 AMI. So at 40 AMI, it's half of that, and 12 someone who makes $33,000 a year. 13 So we think those affordability levels 14 in the city are affordable and are important. 15 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. My time 16 is up. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 18 Assemblyman Lawler, three minutes. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER: Thank you, 20 Chairwoman. 21 And Commissioner, thanks for joining 22 us. I want to thank you and your staff for 23 working with me recently to address the 24 dispute between the federal government and 60 1 the state over the Rockland County Homes for 2 Heroes. I think that's an important project 3 to move forward and build housing for our 4 veterans. 5 I am, however, deeply concerned about 6 the ADU legislation that is included in the 7 Governor's budget. I have heard from all of 8 my municipalities in opposition to this, 9 bipartisan opposition. And it is something 10 that I think will end single-family zoning 11 throughout New York State and seriously 12 impede upon local control, which is a 13 constitutional right of local municipalities. 14 I represent Southern Rockland County. 15 Rockland County is predominantly 16 single-family residential neighborhoods. We 17 do have multifamily housing, we do have 18 accessory dwelling units. But it is based on 19 the decisions of our local elected officials, 20 our planning boards, our zoning boards. And 21 local control is essential for our state. 22 And I think anything that would impede upon 23 that, in a one-size-fits-all approach to 24 housing, is problematic. 61 1 Especially -- I understand the 2 challenges New York City faces. But if 3 New York City wants to implement ADUs, by 4 right, they can do that. They can do that 5 already. They can do that by their own City 6 Council and they can do that through the 7 Mayor. 8 But to force local municipalities in 9 New York State to allow, by right, accessory 10 dwelling units, will create a lot of problems 11 in our municipalities. Rockland County, 12 two-thirds of our land is developed, a third 13 of our land is parkland. We have 340,000 14 residents and growing. Allowing ADUs will 15 explode the population almost overnight. 16 We have serious concerns about the 17 impact it will have on roads, bridges, gas 18 pipelines, power lines, water mains, sewer 19 lines, train tracks, which are already 20 overburdened and in serious need of financial 21 support. 22 We will have a dramatic increase in 23 traffic and street parking, which is 24 prohibited throughout most of Rockland 62 1 County, especially in the winter with the 2 snow plows. And I have serious concerns 3 about the impact for our first responders. 4 Proposals that are out there limit the 5 ability of municipalities to require multiple 6 exterior access doors, reduce the required 7 ceiling height in basement units, and limit 8 the side and rear setbacks. This will also 9 have a significant impact on SEQRA at a time 10 that we're trying to combat climate change. 11 I strongly encourage the Governor to 12 remove this from her budget -- and, if not, 13 to allow for a local opt-out. If you want to 14 incentivize ADUs, by all means. But to 15 promote a one-size-fits-all plan is 16 irresponsible and will lead to the 17 elimination of local control of zoning. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I guess that 19 hands it back over to the Senate. Thank you. 20 Senator Leroy Comrie. Are you there, 21 Leroy? 22 (No response.) 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: All right, in the 24 absence of Leroy Comrie, I will go back to 63 1 him, but I'm jumping to Senator John Mannion. 2 SENATOR MANNION: Thank you, Senator 3 Krueger. 4 A couple of quick questions here, 5 Commissioner. And I know this might be a 6 little bit out of your world, but I know that 7 this is a major issue in my district and 8 others. 9 So has there been any assistance or 10 coordination with OTDA to move along ERAP 11 applications? Because tenants and landlords 12 in my district have indicated that they're 13 waiting months for a decision when it comes 14 to the applications. 15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I know that 16 OTDA and their brand-new commissioner are 17 very focused on getting those applications 18 approved. 19 I don't have an update sort of on 20 their numbers or anything; I'm sure they can 21 supply that at their hearing. But I know 22 that the commissioner is laser-focused on 23 that. 24 SENATOR MANNION: I appreciate that 64 1 and understand, of course. 2 A different question is, do you know 3 how much can you -- do you have any numbers 4 or estimates on how much the state and the 5 city spend on affordable housing each year, 6 spending on affordable housing? 7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: That's a 8 great question. I think it probably depends 9 on how you think about that. Obviously the 10 projects that we finance are sort of highly 11 structured and involve both, you know, 12 federal funds, state funds, a lot of 13 private-sector funds raised through tax 14 credit equity, and private bank funds. 15 So I think it depends on the spend, 16 depends sort of on spends, a little bit on 17 whose dollars you mean. And as you know, the 18 state has a large Housing Plan, as does the 19 city, but many municipalities around the 20 state also spend a significant amount of 21 their resources. 22 So I don't have an exact number but 23 would be happy to talk more about that. 24 SENATOR MANNION: And understanding 65 1 that and appreciate your answer, knowing 2 that, you know, I was not going to get a 3 number there, most likely. 4 If you talk about the public dollars 5 versus private-sector development dollars, 6 can you without those specific numbers just 7 speak with your, you know, level of expertise 8 and professionalism about how do they compare 9 in the State of New York as far as public 10 versus private for affordable housing? 11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think this 12 would hold true for the city as well, that we 13 all leverage at least three times, if not 14 more, public dollars to private dollars. 15 SENATOR MANNION: I appreciate that. 16 Thank you for that information. 17 And appreciate your work today, 18 Senator Krueger and Assemblymember Weinstein. 19 Thank you. 20 Thank you, Commissioner. 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 22 Assemblywoman. 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 24 Epstein, three minutes. 66 1 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, 2 Chair. 3 And thank you, Commissioner, for all 4 your work. And really I just want to applaud 5 your efforts on the accessory dwelling unit 6 language. I think it's an important step to 7 deal with our affordable housing crisis. 8 And I know I only have three minutes, 9 but if we could just quickly -- I'd love to 10 talk maybe more offline about the 421-a 11 substitute program you put in. I have some 12 real reservations about it. I don't think it 13 gets us along the affordability path, and it 14 costs a lot of money. So I don't think 15 it's -- while I understand this is a program 16 that the Governor's proposed, I don't think 17 it's actually a good substitute for 421-a. 18 I'm wondering if there's going to be 19 an opportunity to have a back and forth, 20 because I think we need a better plan, if we 21 have any plan at all. 22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Sure, I'd be 23 happy to continue talking about that. 24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Great. And I 67 1 notice you didn't put Good Cause in the 2 budget. And obviously Good Cause is an 3 important policy position because it protects 4 tenants. You know, obviously rent increases 5 can continue to happen. I'm wondering is 6 there any chance to talk more about 7 Good Cause in the context of the budget, 8 especially with a 30-day amendment? 9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I think we 10 feel that we've put together a, you know, 11 sort of robust series of tools to address 12 evictions, to address increasing our 13 preservation efforts to make sure we're 14 investing in the housing stock, creating new 15 housing stock. As I mentioned, the Eviction 16 Prevention Legal assistance we think is a 17 great tool for upstate. We still have the 18 Tenants Safe Harbor in place for people who 19 are impacted. 20 So I think we feel that we have a good 21 set of policies here. But obviously we're 22 always open to working with the Legislature. 23 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Well, great. 24 I'm looking forward to those conversations as 68 1 well. 2 I appreciate you putting in 3 electrification of the housing stock. I 4 wondered, in that language, are you going to 5 require mandatory charging infrastructure 6 putting in place as well? 7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: For cars? 8 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: For cars. If -- 9 yeah, where there's parking lots. We're 10 going to need places for people to charge 11 their vehicles, and I'm wondering if part of 12 that requirement will be some mandatory 13 electrification for charging stations. 14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah, 15 Assemblyman, we've started to see those in 16 many of our upstate budgets where we have 17 more parking. I don't think it's a 18 requirement at the moment in our design 19 guidelines, but we are working on a series of 20 revisions based on the CLCPA recommendations, 21 so happy to talk more about that. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Good. I'd love 23 to see you put those in if possible. 24 I know Assemblymember Cymbrowitz and 69 1 Senator Kavanagh talked about funding for 2 NYCHA, and I know there's nothing in the 3 budget. I would encourage you to go back to 4 the Governor's office. We need money for 5 NYCHA, whether we get money from Build Back 6 Better -- which I hope we do, and I know 7 we're all going to push for that. 8 We need to support our public housing, 9 and as you know, this is something we're 10 deeply committed to. I hope we can get a 11 commitment at least from the Governor's 12 office to do something for public housing 13 this year that isn't just focusing on a 14 Preservation Trust. 15 And then finally, in my last few 16 minutes, you know, we have the condo/co-op 17 tax abatement that's expiring this year. And 18 so especially on the higher end, we're giving 19 away a lot of money for higher-income people 20 that we could use for other sources. And I'm 21 wondering if there's been any conversations 22 about kicking that back so at least the 23 higher-end people who are getting $35,000, 24 $40,000 a year in tax abatement, we can 70 1 recapture that money for public housing or 2 other affordable housing programs. 3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I'm not sure 4 that has come into our office as an ask, 5 although it may be in a -- 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We're going 7 to -- 8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: But happy to 9 talk about that. 10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Okay, thank you. 11 Thank you, Chair. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We sent it back 13 to the Senate. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 15 State Senator Leroy Comrie is next. 16 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you, Madam 17 Chair. 18 Good afternoon, Commissioner. I 19 wanted to ask you about the DHR and whether 20 or not their computer technology has been 21 improved at all, because we are getting a lot 22 of complaints about the inability of folks on 23 all sides to get a real update on whether or 24 not their complaints have been registered or 71 1 their complaints are being followed through 2 on. 3 And could you give us a sense of where 4 we are with upgrading the technology at DHR? 5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. So we 6 have this very large transformation project. 7 We had previously been working with a vendor, 8 that vendor is no longer working with us, and 9 now we're working directly with ITS. ITS 10 obviously has been -- during the course of 11 the COVID pandemic had a lot of technology 12 platforms that they've been rolling out for a 13 variety of pandemic-related needs. But we 14 continue to work with them. 15 I -- in the intervening year we have 16 added parts of the system to come online 17 around the Tenant Protection Unit and some 18 legal tracking pieces of it, but we are not 19 fully there yet on the whole. And we don't 20 have an exact timeline today for you, but I'm 21 happy to follow up on that. 22 SENATOR COMRIE: Thank you. Have you 23 been able to fully expand the Tenant 24 Protection Unit with the dollars that you 72 1 were given last year? Or are you still 2 looking for -- 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senator Comrie, 4 I think you're unmuted. 5 SENATOR COMRIE: I'm unmuted. Hello, 6 can you hear me? 7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Oh, okay. No, 9 sorry. Okay, it was hard to hear. Thank 10 you. 11 SENATOR COMRIE: I'm sorry, I'll talk 12 louder. 13 Have you been able to fully staff up 14 the Tenant Protection Unit now with the 15 dollars? 16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, we have 17 25 staffers in that division. The head of 18 the unit, Greg Fewer, actually just recently 19 retired, and we are in the process of 20 bringing on a new head for that. So -- but 21 we are at full staff. 22 SENATOR COMRIE: Okay. Also I 23 represent a lot of homeowners, and I'm going 24 to actually follow Senator Helming in her 73 1 request that we do more for homeowners to 2 make sure that they can get some relief, that 3 we do some tax credits and some tax relief 4 for homeowners. 5 And also that we consider doing a 6 program for homeowners, small homeowners that 7 can't get to court because they're trying to 8 work four jobs to maintain their homes, 9 especially since they haven't gotten any 10 relief for arrears in two years. 11 And I would hope that the Governor's 12 office seriously looks at some programs where 13 we do more for homeowners in this budget, 14 especially since we're doing so much more for 15 non-homeowners in the budget, and so we need 16 some equality. Thank you. 17 I'll end my time. Thank you, Madam 18 Chair. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 20 Assembly. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We next go to 22 Assemblywoman Hyndman, I believe. 23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you, 24 Chair Weinstein. 74 1 I have a couple of questions regarding 2 the amount of -- how long does it take to 3 process the MCIs that your office receives? 4 And the reason why I'm asking that is because 5 there's a huge amount of tenants that live in 6 the Zara buildings in Queens who have been 7 complaining that every time they get an 8 increase that it's because the owners are 9 telling them it's an MCI. So that's my first 10 question. 11 And is it self-reporting, and how do 12 you investigate the validity of an MCI? And 13 also when it comes to the accessory dwelling 14 units, you know, in Southeast Queens we have 15 a large homeownership of black homeowners. 16 And this has been talk amongst the civic 17 associations, is that while we want to make 18 sure that everyone has housing, just like my 19 colleagues maybe in Nassau and Suffolk and 20 upstate, when you talk about in single-family 21 neighborhoods, there is a lot of pushback on 22 changing the quality of life and so forth. 23 We have a lot of basement apartments, we want 24 them to be legal apartments but what we don't 75 1 want to see is an influx of backyards 2 becoming multifamily spaces. 3 And the same as it would be here, we'd 4 be worried about people would move after a 5 year once they realize they can get income 6 for that. 7 So those are my two questions. 8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Okay. I 9 think I'll take the MCI one first. We take 10 the case processing of MCIs very seriously. 11 It's not something we -- you know, we process 12 it and review all the materials. Owners are 13 required to submit receipts and documents, 14 and so -- and there is a fair amount of back 15 and forth. The tenants are noticed. 16 And so I would be happy to sort of 17 follow up on the Zara buildings or any others 18 on the MCIs there. But we certainly do, you 19 know, process those and take that seriously. 20 On the accessory dwelling units, what 21 we have aimed to do with the proposed 22 legislation in New York City is to give 23 New York City some tools to create a pathway 24 of amnesty for owners so that they can bring 76 1 those illegal apartments into compliance and 2 make sure that they are safe, without people 3 being penalized for having them in the first 4 place or for either owners or tenants being 5 afraid to even acknowledge that they live 6 there. 7 So what we tried to do there is really 8 less about creating new accessory dwelling 9 units and really trying to give the city some 10 tools to take the ones that we know are 11 there, but which are somewhat in the shadows 12 by an actual sort of housing count for the 13 city, and give them the ability to bring them 14 into safety. 15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: So since I 16 have 24 seconds left, with the amnesty for 17 owners, is there any money provided with 18 that? 19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So the city 20 had had a program, I think maybe last year, 21 that -- 22 (Overtalk.) 23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Yeah, mm-hmm. 24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: -- and we 77 1 have put in the state budget, in HCR's 2 capital budget, $85 million that could be for 3 accessory dwelling units, you know, as we see 4 sort of where the needs are for that. So we 5 do have a funding source there. 6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. Thank 7 you, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yup. 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 10 Senator Zellnor Myrie. 11 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you, Chair 12 Krueger. 13 And thank you, Commissioner. Thank 14 you for working with our office on the 15 Homeowner Assistance Fund. We've held a 16 number of events, and the office has been 17 very helpful to us, and we hope that we can 18 continue that partnership. 19 I want to first associate myself with 20 the comments made by my colleagues as relates 21 to 421-a. You know, I am not fully convinced 22 that the replacement proposed by the budget 23 really extends true affordability, 24 particularly for neighborhoods like the ones 78 1 that I represent. And so I would urge us to 2 reconsider that. 3 And also urge our policymakers to 4 consider that our property tax system in 5 New York City is very jacked up -- I think 6 that's the legal term -- and that makes it I 7 think necessary for us to subsidize 8 affordable housing the way that we do. 9 My one question is on the $50 million 10 that is proposed by the Governor for 11 affordable homeownership opportunities that 12 prioritizes residential control. It doesn't 13 specify what that looks like. A number of us 14 have proposals -- I have a proposal, the 15 Tenant Opportunity to Purchase Act, that is a 16 specific type of residential control 17 providing opportunities particularly for 18 Black and brown folks in our communities that 19 have not had a path to homeownership. 20 I'm wondering if this is what is 21 envisioned in the budget. If not, is it 22 CLTs, is it some mix of TOPA, CLTs? And if 23 you could just talk to us more about that. 24 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So what we 79 1 tried to do in the budget was sort of carve 2 out a little bit of space and dollars to be 3 able to fund sort of specifically kind of all 4 the -- you know, whether it's a CLT model or 5 a limited equity co-op model or something 6 like that, to allow folks to bring us those 7 projects and to sort of have a set-aside of 8 dollars to look at governance, look at 9 permanent affordability, be able to do some 10 of those projects. 11 So I think it's, you know, a little 12 bit of all of the above. We envision it as a 13 new construction, as a new creation, a 14 program. But I think we're going to be 15 pretty open from a -- assuming it gets passed 16 in the budget, be pretty open to what we get. 17 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you very much. 18 I cede the rest of my time. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 20 Assembly. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go next to 22 Assemblywoman Jackson. 23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Thank you, 24 Chair. 80 1 Thank you, Commissioner. I just have 2 a few quick questions. 3 When it comes to Black homeownership 4 and brown homeownership, we know that the 5 numbers have been down historically and we 6 would love to see -- I just wanted to know 7 what support are we giving to people to own 8 their home, finally. 9 When it comes to NYCHA, I have to 10 listen to my residents. They do not trust 11 the trust. So we need to know what kind of 12 funding, if any, or what kind of help, 13 assistance can we offer NYCHA at this point. 14 Mitchell-Lama makes it easy for young people 15 and people who are middle-to-lower income to 16 own a home. And so I would love to know what 17 if anything we are doing for our 18 Mitchell-Lamas. 19 And if you have any idea on short-term 20 rentals in the city so that people can find 21 another way of creating income for themselves 22 in the city. 23 So Black homeownership, NYCHA funding, 24 Mitchell-Lamas, and short-term rentals. 81 1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Okay. I'll 2 try my best here. 3 So on NYCHA, you know, I understood 4 we -- there are -- you know, we believe that 5 we want to give NYCHA as many tools as we can 6 to be successful. And so we are just 7 continuing to work with the city 8 administration on the trust. 9 I think as it relates to short-term 10 rentals and income for people -- and I don't 11 know if this is what you mean, but I think we 12 are hopeful that with the accessory dwelling 13 legislation in the city that that will allow 14 people to take units that are not legal and 15 make them legal and make them safe for 16 tenants who live there, because we do 17 understand that obviously that provides 18 income for the homeowners who have those 19 accessory dwelling units, the basement 20 apartments or the attic apartments. 21 And then I think on Black 22 homeownership and Mitchell-Lama -- obviously 23 we have a fixed amount of Mitchell-Lamas in 24 the city right now, and we work very hard to 82 1 make sure that they can stay in the program, 2 that they can stay in good repair. 3 I do think that what Senator Myrie was 4 just asking, about this effort that we have 5 around putting some funding aside for new 6 models of homeownership like a Mitchell-Lama 7 structure or a limited equity in a co-op 8 structure, we're really excited to start 9 doing more of those and really want to get at 10 the supply side of this and make sure that 11 there are houses for people to buy that are 12 affordable. 13 And we have tried -- as I talked about 14 a little bit before, we launched last year 15 the Give Us Credit program, which looked at 16 places where we saw Black homeowners getting 17 rejected at double the rate of white 18 homeowners, holding constant for income 19 around the state. And we've gone into all 20 those, about 33 places around the state, and 21 we are making sure that people are aware of 22 our SONYMA mortgage program, we are making 23 sure that people understand what their 24 opportunities are, they have financial 83 1 literacy, and really trying to -- you know, 2 the Black homeownership rate in New York is 3 no better than it is in the rest of the 4 country, and it's not good. 5 And so we are hopeful that a series of 6 tools both on the mortgage side as well as on 7 the supply side will help make a dent in 8 that. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 We go to the Senate. Perfect timing. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 12 Senator Pete Harckham. 13 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you very 14 much, Madam Chair. 15 Commissioner, it is always great to 16 see you. Thank you for your testimony. I 17 want to thank you and the Governor for the 18 $85 million in the capital plan to support 19 accessory dwelling units. That's a big step 20 forward for making them safe and bringing 21 them out of the shadows. 22 I don't want to talk about ADUs, but 23 I'm going to talk about ADUs for a second, in 24 that there is a tremendous amount of 84 1 misinformation. Some of it's purposeful, and 2 that's fine, it's an election year. But if 3 people really want to know about the ADU 4 bills, please, call my office, call me, call 5 Assemblyman Epstein. We address many, many, 6 many concerns of the municipalities in the A 7 print. So please give us a call if you 8 really want to have a fact-based conversation 9 about ADUs. 10 What I want to talk to you about, 11 Commissioner -- we had spoken about this 12 briefly -- we need to find a way in our 13 capital plan to do something around recovery 14 housing. Part of our substance use disorder 15 crisis is people come out of treatment and 16 they have nowhere to go to in their early 17 recovery. They're either going back to 18 dangerous environments, they're going to 19 shelters, or they're going to badly 20 unregulated, unsafe environments. 21 So, you know, OASAS is not in the 22 housing business, you're not in the recovery 23 business, but we need to find a way to marry 24 the two of you because we lose so many people 85 1 to relapse and overdose in those early phases 2 of recovery because they don't have safe and 3 stable housing. 4 So I just wanted to put that plug in 5 your ear. I know we've briefly spoken about 6 it. But if that's something you can put on 7 your work list, I'd greatly appreciate it. 8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, happy 9 to. We understand it's a real issue around 10 the state. 11 SENATOR HARCKHAM: All right, 12 terrific. Thanks so much. 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 14 Assembly. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 16 Assemblywoman Rosenthal. 17 Linda, are you here? She might have 18 needed to step away. 19 So is Assemblywoman Seawright -- I see 20 Rebecca. Why don't you go ahead, and we'll 21 find Rosenthal. 22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT: Okay, thank 23 you, Chairwoman. 24 Thank you, Commissioner, for your 86 1 testimony. 2 I have Roosevelt Island in my 3 district, and I'm starting to receive more 4 and more letters from constituents in 5 Westview. As you know, it went through a 6 conversion from a modified Mitchell-Lama with 7 an offering plan to purchase. And some of 8 the tenants have expressed a desire to 9 purchase and are being told due to succession 10 rights they're not allowed to, even though 11 their name is on the purchasing agreement. 12 So if we could have someone from your 13 office work with the tenants to review these 14 claims that I'm getting, that would be 15 helpful. 16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, happy 17 to. 18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT: And then 19 also with -- it's been reported that 20 landlords are asking for 50, 60, 70 percent 21 increases post-pandemic and that people are 22 moving out because they can't afford to rent. 23 How many New Yorkers are displaced 24 each year due to rent hikes, would you say? 87 1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I don't know 2 that there's a good data source for 3 displacement, but certainly I'm happy to sort 4 of talk more about that. 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: And on 7 Westview, happy to follow up. As you know, 8 we spent many, many, many hours negotiating 9 that to try to get a good outcome, so we're 10 happy to follow up and make sure we get what 11 we all fought for. 12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT: Great. 13 Appreciate your attention to it. Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah, 15 mm-hmm. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Back to the 17 Senate. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Hoylman. 19 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Hi. Thank you, 20 Madam Chair. Good to see you, Commissioner. 21 Commissioner, just wanted to thank you 22 for your -- thank you for the support of 23 transit-oriented development and accessory 24 dwelling units. 88 1 I note in the Governor's State of the 2 State that there's a pilot program to create 3 affordable homeownership projects that 4 prioritize resident control and permanent 5 affordability. She mentions it, you know, 6 comparing it to Mitchell-Lama and limited 7 equity co-ops, shared equity housing and 8 community land trusts. It's all very 9 exciting. Especially for my district, where 10 we have development possibilities around 11 Penn Station and the former Bayview Prison 12 for Women. 13 Could you shed some more light on what 14 that might look like in the final budget? I 15 see it under the $5.2 billion proposal for 16 creation of a five-year Housing Plan. Is 17 that what the Governor referenced to -- in 18 terms of a new Mitchell-Lama program? 19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So the -- 20 we, as I said before, sort of tried to make 21 some space and some -- both sort of in the 22 verbiage, but also attaching money would be 23 within our homeownership -- we have sort of a 24 new funding line this year, or a funding line 89 1 that's much bigger than it had been 2 previously, to provide for homeownership. 3 And so our thought is to keep it 4 fairly flexible and to be able to go out with 5 sort of a request for proposals that people 6 could bring us, whether it's, you know, a CLT 7 or a limited equity co-op or whatever the 8 version of that that the affordable housing 9 community brings sort of based on location. 10 So we're fairly flexible on that. I 11 think we're looking for, you know, creative 12 ideas and great projects that we can fund. 13 SENATOR HOYLMAN: And will that be 14 through an RFP? And when is that likely to 15 be issued? 16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Well, we 17 need the budget to pass. So as soon as we do 18 that, we would -- you know, as a series of -- 19 I think as we roll out different programs 20 after the budget passes, we would, you know, 21 put this at the top of our list of things 22 that we would try to get out in an RFP and 23 give people a couple of months to pull some 24 responses together, and then we would review 90 1 them and then award and sort of in a regular 2 sort of RFP timing. 3 So we think it could happen fairly 4 quickly. 5 SENATOR HOYLMAN: And is this a direct 6 investment in housing or does it involve a 7 tax credit model? 8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I mean I 9 think we would be open to, you know, what 10 people bring us. Most of our tax credit 11 models are rooted in rentals, you know, 12 whether it's 9 percent or 4 percent. So I 13 think for our homeownership program we're 14 probably going to be doing something that's 15 not tax credits but that doesn't diminish its 16 ability to get done in any way. I think we 17 would look at the proposals that people bring 18 us. 19 SENATOR HOYLMAN: Good. Thank you. 20 I'm excited for the sites in my district. 21 Thank you so much. 22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman 23 Rosenthal, we found you. 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Yes. Thank 91 1 you. I was on two Zooms simultaneously. 2 It's not a good strategy. Anyway, thank you. 3 Hello, Commissioner. How are you? I 4 have some questions. The first question has 5 to do with 421-a. What about if all the tax 6 credit funding we will -- tax credit revenue 7 we will lose over the years just be set 8 aside, just let us give tax credits on the 9 affordable. Or let us do the building, let 10 us do the construction, and it will save 11 billions of dollars that have been lost. 12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would say 13 a couple of things. Obviously market 14 developers are going to build sites in the 15 city. 16 We saw, in the last version of the 17 program, that 60 to 70 percent of the 18 buildings that were built through 421-a were 19 less than 50 units and many of them were less 20 than 30 units. So there's a lot of outer 21 borough construction that happens by the 22 market. 23 We think it's important that 24 affordability get included in those 92 1 developments as they get built. In the 2 absence of the tax exemption, those, you 3 know, 8,000 or 10,000 units a year that get 4 built would be 100 percent market rate and we 5 wouldn't have any affordability. So the tax 6 exemption -- 7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay, but 8 why -- why don't we directly finance 9 construction of new affordable housing or 10 HAVP or another Section 8-type voucher? And 11 I also don't want to lose time, so that's one 12 question. 13 My other important question is who 14 oversees 421-a? There seems to be no 15 enforcement. Landlords get away with not 16 renting out units, still getting their tax 17 credits. It's really -- HPD says HCR, HCR 18 says HPD. There's no coordination, it seems, 19 and we are losing out. Landlords harass 20 people out, they don't rent out the units 21 properly, and there's no supervision of 421-a 22 as far as a lot of us can see. 23 My other question is, what happened to 24 the TPU? Is that -- I haven't heard those 93 1 three letters in a long time. And are 2 they -- how are they operating? 3 And I know someone asked you about 4 Good Cause. It's been implemented in a 5 handful of counties, and it does seem to be 6 something that is protective of tenants while 7 allowing landlords to increase the rent. 8 And I would love to see more advocacy 9 coming out of your shop in terms of 10 protecting tenants, because the Safe Harbor 11 Act is not enough. And it won't be 12 long-term. 13 So those are my three basic areas. 14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I would say, 15 on Good Cause, we feel that we've put 16 together a series of programs and policy 17 tools in the budget to address evictions and 18 to address affordable housing production. 19 I think on the -- having mentioned 20 TPU, you probably were on your other Zoom. 21 Senator Comrie asked me about the Tenant 22 Protection Unit, which is fully staffed and 23 has -- recently the head of the TPU retired, 24 and we are just about to bring on a new 94 1 person. So they are alive and well. 2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Okay. Okay, 3 good. 4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: And I would 5 say on 421-a, to your question about why 6 can't we just subsidize all those units, I 7 think the question is that -- or the issue 8 would be that those buildings would get 9 built, they would just get built as a 10 100 percent market-rate building and we would 11 lose the opportunity to get affordability 12 into neighborhoods around the city as it gets 13 built. 14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: No, no, not 15 have them -- not have them build it. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 17 Thank you -- 18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL: Well, we can 19 talk more offline. But also, who supervises 20 421-a? 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We're going to 22 turn it back to the Senate now. 23 Senator Krueger. 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, I'm afraid 95 1 Linda asked way too many questions to be fit 2 into that. 3 Senator Boyle. 4 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you, Madam 5 Chair. Thank you, Commissioner. 6 Just two quick questions, one 7 regarding the reduction in the registration 8 of rental units, regulated rental units 9 between 2020 and 2021. It basically went 10 down from about 950,000 to 886,000. Do you 11 know what accounted for that reduction? 12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I'm sorry, 13 it's a little bit hard to hear you. Oh, 14 there you go. Now I can see you too. 15 We -- no, I'm happy to sort of follow 16 up with you. We can go through some of the 17 data on the registrations. You know, we are 18 very active with our registration initiative 19 to make sure that we are looking at units 20 that aren't getting registered year over 21 year, and are pretty proactive there. So 22 happy to follow up with you on that. 23 SENATOR BOYLE: Okay, wonderful. 24 And the only other thing is more of a 96 1 comment than a question. But accessory 2 dwelling units, in my area, are going over 3 like a lead balloon. I associate myself with 4 Assemblyman Lawler's idea. If they're going 5 to be a carrot program, fine. You know, but 6 leave it up to the localities. My phone has 7 literally been ringing off the hook. The 8 localities are very concerned about losing 9 their constitutionally guaranteed 10 jurisdiction. 11 And not to say it's not a decent idea 12 down the road, but we need to do it very 13 carefully. And a one-size-fits-all statewide 14 mandate would not be a good thing. But 15 that's -- we can continue that discussion. 16 Thank you, Commissioner. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 18 We go to Assemblyman Burdick. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you. 20 And first, Commissioner, thank you for 21 the great work that you're doing and moving 22 ahead with the five-year capital plan. 23 I'll get all of my questions out at 24 once, and if you're unable to get to all of 97 1 the answers, perhaps if they could be 2 provided later. 3 I commend you on pressing for the new 4 five-year capital plan for 100,000 affordable 5 housing units. Wondering whether higher 6 goals and funding levels might be possible if 7 Build Back Better comes through, perhaps the 8 30-day amendment. 9 Also delighted to see the 60 million 10 for the small building program. Would like 11 to get a sense of how many units that might 12 create and how the funds would be 13 distributed. 14 I also wanted to heartily agree with 15 Senator Harckham regarding the need for 16 housing for those recovering from addiction. 17 And related to that, I'd like to ask about 18 transitional housing, which we discussed at 19 the committee's hearing last year on the 20 five-year capital plan. And would you 21 support a dedicated funding stream for 22 transitional housing for those released from 23 our correctional facilities, like the 24 dedicated funding stream for supportive 98 1 housing? 2 Legal representation for eviction 3 cases program, I'm cosponsor of the Assembly 4 bill and delighted to see that being created. 5 I understand from answers you gave before 6 that the funds will be distributed to legal 7 services providers. Wondering if we could 8 get a listing. 9 And finally, you mentioned people with 10 special needs. May I assume that this 11 includes people with disabilities? 12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: That was a 13 lot. 14 (Laughter.) 15 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes, we -- 16 what I heard last, maybe going in reverse 17 order, yes, we do a lot of work with OPWDD, 18 who serves a highly special-needs population, 19 as well as some of the other state agencies, 20 and continue really great partnerships with 21 those agencies to integrate those populations 22 into the housing we do. 23 Yes, on legal representation, I 24 think -- happy to follow up with you on the 99 1 organizations. 2 On transitional housing, since this 3 had come up before I think I would say this 4 is probably really something for HCR and OTDA 5 and the Office of Criminal Justice Services 6 to work on together. 7 We, you know, primarily are creators 8 of permanent housing, not regulators of 9 permanent housing, and I think much of the 10 transitional housing may be a little bit more 11 in the purview of OTDA. But we can work on 12 breaking down some sort of silos and I think 13 work between HCR and OTDA and OC -- I forget 14 their acronym -- on that issue. It's an 15 important one, and we understand the -- we 16 have tried to incorporate a lot of policy 17 changes for people who have been involved in 18 the criminal justice system into our 19 programs, so we're certainly sensitive to 20 that issue. 21 Thank you on small buildings. Happy 22 to circle back with you on our production 23 there. 24 And I can't remember what your Housing 100 1 Plan question was, because -- 2 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: The last one was 3 if there's money from Build Back Better, 4 would you do a 30-day amendment? 5 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Oh, yes, 6 sorry. Yes, certainly. We were really 7 hopeful for that for a while, and it didn't 8 happen. But the two changes, both the 9 expansion of the 9 percent credit and the -- 10 what's called the reduction of the 50 percent 11 test, would be very big policy changes or 12 tools for us to expand our production. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you so 14 much. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 Back to the Senate. 17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I 18 think it's down to me in the Senate. 19 Hi, Commissioner. Thank you for all 20 your work and the work of your agency. 21 So many questions. Let's see. And I 22 actually get 10 minutes, but hopefully won't 23 use them all. 24 Going to supportive housing, which 101 1 many people brought up, I think there's been 2 a frustration during the Cuomo administration 3 that there were promises for more supportive 4 than we actually saw ever getting built. Are 5 we going to speed up the process by which 6 money can go out the door to help these 7 buildings get either retrofitted or built and 8 open? 9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we 10 committed during the first five years to 11 6,000 units. We've fully financed 6,000 12 units and a little more. Those were both 13 ESSHI units as well as, you know, old, like, 14 New York/New York III contracts and things 15 rolling up. 16 So I think for us and OTDA, through 17 their HHAP program, I think we would be happy 18 to come back to you to say we feel like 19 we've -- that the -- as part of the 20, we 20 did the first six. We are now, in this 21 Housing Plan, committed to 7,000 over the 22 course of the five years and are adding to 23 that, at the request of advocates, 24 additionally 3,000 units of preservation, 102 1 because obviously we can't be losing existing 2 supportive housing and just be building new. 3 So we will be, at their request -- which we 4 agree with the goal, obviously -- having a 5 10,000 unit total goal for this five-year 6 Housing Plan of the combination of the new. 7 So we are, you know, sort of all-in on 8 supportive housing and understand the great 9 need there. 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. Because 11 every community, you know, needs a 12 special-needs -- mentally ill, substance 13 abusing, people coming out of prison, 14 everybody. So great. 15 I am not a fan of 421-a -- that's not 16 news to you -- so I'm not a fan of this 17 version either. But I just want to 18 double-check. One of my concerns has -- you 19 do address by bringing down the affordability 20 definition of AMI to something closer to what 21 people can actually pay. 22 My concern is that -- I think it was 23 Linda Rosenthal's earlier point -- no one's 24 really cross-checking, and everybody who's 103 1 like big in real estate is smart enough to 2 game the system. So what I see in my 3 district, and I think it's true on the West 4 Side of Manhattan, you buy up a block but you 5 don't buy it up as big developer ABC, you get 6 front people to buy up each little building. 7 Then suddenly one day it's a giant 8 development announced for 421-a. And so then 9 it's a 421-a building that has fewer, 10 less-affordable units than the number of 11 units that existed when you had half a dozen 12 small buildings on that block. 13 And I talk about that as gaming the 14 system because then they also claim that 15 they're using mandatory affordable 16 inclusionary zoning and they're double-gaming 17 it that way. 18 So why should we keep spending 19 taxpayer dollars and just keep getting gamed 20 by people in real estate who are apparently 21 smarter at this than we are? And can we 22 protect ourselves? I don't see anything in 23 the new program that would protect us from 24 those two storylines. 104 1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I mean, I 2 think in those cases you're getting overall 3 more housing than you may have started with 4 even if your affordability is going down, 5 although I don't know the specifics of 6 different -- of those different -- of sites. 7 I think we have tried here to -- and 8 developers are going to build in the city, 9 and we need more housing in the city, so we 10 need people to be building. We are, you 11 know, as I mentioned before, very behind on 12 our production relative to our population 13 growth and job growth. 14 So we think that the production of 15 rental housing is important. As I said, we 16 have reduced the AMIs, which we think is an 17 improvement. We have made the affordability 18 permanent so that it's not expiring at the 19 end of 35 years or at the end of a regulatory 20 agreement. We think that's important. We 21 are -- we have added some additional 22 reporting into the bill to get us some more 23 transparency around the program. 24 So we think it's an important 105 1 production tool so that we don't have a city 2 where only condos and market-rate rentals are 3 built. 4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So I like very 5 much people using the term "Mitchell-Lama" as 6 if it's a new program to be started again, 7 because that would be nice. 8 But one of the things we learned about 9 Mitchell-Lama, we can't let you out of it 10 25 years later. And we can't let the 11 Mitchell-Lama cooperatives lose their 12 affordability because people see it as voting 13 themselves out and then getting a pile of 14 gold at the end of the time frame that 15 they've lived there. 16 So can you assure me that those two 17 protections will be built into this program? 18 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Into our 19 pilot for -- yeah, I mean, we're -- for the 20 pilot specifically, we're looking for, you 21 know, innovative governance structure. So 22 like, as we sort of said, around whether 23 that's land trusts or around limited equity 24 co-ops or things which would be sort of 106 1 aligned with the Mitchell-Lama. 2 And they are going to be permanently 3 affordable, sort of is the way we've 4 constructed that pilot. So I think that will 5 solve some of those, you know, problems that 6 are in all housing that has an exit time for 7 its affordability. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. In the 9 Governor's proposal for the transit-oriented 10 building, how come she doesn't talk about any 11 affordability requirements for that kind of 12 housing? 13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So I think 14 there we are trying to break down, you know, 15 single-family zoning in areas that are 16 transit-rich and where there's a lot of 17 investment. So I don't think it precludes 18 localities from including that themselves. 19 It was really an effort to just get at the 20 supply side of housing as a first step. 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Although if I 22 listen to some of my suburban colleagues and 23 their concerns about accessory housing, I 24 think they would be better off supporting 107 1 transit-oriented development by their train 2 stations where you're starting from scratch, 3 so you're not violating anybody's believed 4 control, and affordable housing near rail 5 stations, so that you don't need cars to get 6 into New York City for jobs, is a wonderful 7 model. 8 So I would just encourage you to think 9 about factoring in affordability there. 10 FAR 12. FAR 10 has created a monster 11 in Manhattan -- East Side, West Side, bottom 12 of Manhattan, everything south of 96th 13 Street. We have super-talls that are 14 1100 feet competing with super-talls going up 15 to them that are 1300 feet. The density 16 situation is beyond comprehension. There is 17 no place to walk on the sidewalks. There is 18 no sun or light, there are no park spaces. 19 Why the hell would we want to give anybody 20 more FAR unless you say, You can't use it in 21 the densely-overdeveloped areas of Manhattan? 22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So the 23 proposal here is really to give the city 24 control over that. As you know, the 108 1 restriction lives in the state MDL and the 2 city can't change that. So -- and the -- you 3 know, my understanding is the new 4 administration is supportive of creative ways 5 to get more housing built in the city to deal 6 with the affordability crisis and the 7 overcrowding crisis that we have. 8 So this doesn't change the zoning as 9 much as it gives the city control over where 10 it chooses to increase residential density 11 across the city. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So just for the 13 record, I didn't trust the last 14 administration on this issue, and I don't 15 trust the new administration on this issue 16 either. Everybody keeps seeming to say, 17 Fine, we don't care if Manhattan Island 18 becomes Dubai or Singapore. Those of us who 19 live there do care whether it becomes Dubai 20 or Singapore, and we don't want to be living 21 in those cities. 22 So I'm going to continue to argue 23 strenuously against just an open-ended FAR 24 expansion. 109 1 Last point. So you answered a 2 question before about the NYCHA Trust, about 3 you're still looking at it. I understand 4 that there are tenants who are worried. But 5 I am far more worried that we're never going 6 to see the money to rebuild NYCHA the way we 7 need to. Build It Back Better is like all of 8 our dream mantras -- but do we think there's 9 going to be 40 billion for public housing for 10 New York City? I'm too cynical and too old 11 for that. 12 Can you help me understand what we 13 have to make sure is in there for us to be 14 comfortable as a state that we're not selling 15 NYCHA down the river in some unexpected way 16 if we support the trust? Because I actually 17 think it is the right thing to do at this 18 point in history. 19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I mean, it's 20 complex to do in a minute and 21 seconds. 21 But for sure, I think NYCHA has spent an 22 enormous amount of time trying to build in 23 protections for the underlying land, for 24 control, for should anything go wrong and the 110 1 ability to cure. You know, in the case of 2 RAD where the buildings were in fact 3 transferred to a private entity, this gets 4 rid of that. Right? The NYCHA trust is a 5 public entity, and so it maintains public 6 control. 7 So I think that NYCHA has tried to 8 work very hard to get those assurances. 9 Obviously they are complex and as you had -- 10 in the legislative text, you know, you can 11 see sort of the complexity there. But I do 12 think it's something that needs to be on the 13 table. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Thank you 15 very much. 16 Assemblywoman, thank you. And the 17 Senate is done. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We go to 19 Assemblywoman Walker. Assemblywoman Walker, 20 are you here? 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Yup. Hi. 22 Sorry about that. Okay. A lot happening at 23 the same time, as we can all imagine. 24 So thank you so much for your 111 1 testimony. I just wanted to ask about -- 2 with the supportive housing, we've been 3 talking about transitional housing for 4 reentry housing. I did see something in the 5 budget, it was $2.5 million increase, but 6 only for housing for 90 days. 7 We do have a pilot project that we're 8 working on with -- in my district. Also in 9 Syracuse there was a project. So I was just 10 wondering what the budget's commitment was to 11 reentry housing there. 12 With the Affordable Housing 13 Corporation, we had an increase from $40,000 14 to $75,000, which was just signed into law by 15 Governor Hochul, a subsidy for -- 40,000 to 16 75,000 that was subsidy for each unit. 17 I was wondering, did we put the money 18 in the budget in order to support that 19 increase from 40,000 to 75,000? 20 I do want to submit comments for -- 21 that many of my colleagues have made about 22 public housing. Of course I have 29 NYCHA 23 developments in my district, so I would 24 rather take the trust out of the budget, 112 1 because there are a lot of other issues that 2 we should be dealing with in there that maybe 3 we need to talk about on another level. So 4 if we can pull that out and deal with that 5 post-budget, I would appreciate it. 6 And -- I think that was it for me. So 7 reentry housing, affordable housing program 8 increase in the subsidy, public housing. And 9 then also I will submit my comments to those 10 who spoke about the problems with 421-a and 11 if we can deal with those outside of the 12 budget as well. 13 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So on AHC, 14 we do not do a budget increase to accommodate 15 that, but can continue to work on that 16 through the budget process. 17 I think on the NYCHA Trust, you know, 18 I hear you, obviously it's a complicated 19 proposal and not -- it doesn't have 20 widespread support across the Legislature. 21 It does obviously provide resources to NYCHA 22 that they otherwise can't access, which we 23 all know is important. But happy to continue 24 talking about that. 113 1 On reentry, I'm not totally sure what 2 the funding there was, although we do have 3 funding -- we made two big policy changes 4 which actually no one has asked so much about 5 yet, so if I could take a second on that -- 6 which was to require landlords that you can't 7 just reject people for their criminal justice 8 history or their credit history. Those are 9 two things that largely impact people of 10 color, they largely impact domestic violence 11 survivors, and we want landlords to not be 12 able to just bright-line reject people for 13 those. 14 So we've put some funding in the 15 budget to make sure that people are aware 16 that landlords have to sort of consider them 17 as a whole person and not just based on a 18 student or medical debt or a criminal history 19 that may have happened a very long time ago. 20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Awesome. I 21 just would like for the state to be their 22 landlord, and let's do some reentry housing. 23 And then of course we can discuss Ella 24 McQueen, which was a former juvenile 114 1 detention facility, in terms of it being in 2 your capital plan. 3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Okay. Yes, 4 happy to work with that. 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We have Senator 7 Kavanagh for his second round, three minutes. 8 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. I would be 9 willing to go after the remaining 10 Assemblymembers. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, I did not see 12 Senator Brisport. Pardon me, Senator 13 Brisport. Excuse me. 14 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I'm happy to go 15 after him too. 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, thank you. 17 And Senator O'Mara. Everybody is 18 jumping in. All right. 19 So let's call Senator Brisport, just 20 because I saw him first, and then we'll go to 21 Senator O'Mara next round. Thank you. 22 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you, 23 Senator Krueger. And thank you, 24 Commissioner, for taking part in this 115 1 marathon. 2 My first question is about NYCHA, just 3 because I'm just noticing -- and it's been 4 said before, there is a removal of 5 $200 million in capital funding for NYCHA. 6 There is also, in this proposal, $2.2 billion 7 in tax credits for homeowners. And to me, 8 this budget proposal reads as a shift in 9 priorities and funding from public tenants to 10 private homeowners. 11 So it's been said before, you know, 12 many of my colleagues agree, we don't think 13 Build Back Better is coming. 14 I'm curious, if the Senate Legislature 15 includes state funding for NYCHA in our 16 one-house budgets, will you or the Governor 17 oppose that in three-way negotiations? Would 18 you oppose state funding of NYCHA? 19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I can't 20 speak for what the Governor will do. But as 21 you all heard her say in her very first days 22 in office, she is very focused on NYCHA. 23 I would just clarify that we didn't 24 remove funding for NYCHA. That funding is 116 1 still there and available for them to use. 2 This is funding for, you know, capital 3 repairs that has been appropriated over 4 different periods of time and is subject to 5 NYCHA and DASNY sort of working out an MOU 6 for how that money is spent, and largely it's 7 on boilers and elevators and very much needed 8 capital repair. 9 So that money is still there and 10 available, it just wasn't -- wasn't -- there 11 is not additional new funding this year. But 12 certainly open to continuing that discussion. 13 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you. 14 And then my second question is about 15 the new -- you know, the 421-a remix. 16 Specifically, Option C, which is the 17 homeownership option for the buyers who make 18 up to 130 percent of AMI. I just want to 19 note that the majority of people in New York 20 City make less than 130 percent of AMI, and I 21 was curious if there was thought given to 22 what neighborhoods you think developers might 23 target for this Option C. 24 And is there any fear that this 117 1 Option C would subsidize the construction and 2 purchase of wealthy and expensive condos in 3 poorer neighborhoods? 4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So I think 5 the goal with this -- and it doesn't 6 necessarily come through in the statute -- 7 was really to drive at the production of 8 affordable homeownership opportunities in the 9 City of New York. There had been a 10 homeownership program, but in the last 11 edition of the program it was not 12 means-tested. And this is really meant to 13 get at 100 percent affordable buildings, 14 regulated by regulatory agreements either 15 with the State of New York or the City of 16 New York, that are 100 percent affordable. 17 You know, a three-family household at 18 130 AMI makes maybe $140,000. Households at 19 that income are largely, you know, shut out, 20 for the most part, of market-rate 21 homeownership. And I think the average sale 22 of a Brooklyn home is $750,000; in Manhattan 23 I think it was a million or maybe even more. 24 And so housing opportunities at $400,000 or 118 1 $500,000 just really don't exist. 2 So this is really meant to be a 3 city/state-financed, 100 percent affordable 4 homeownership option, really to get at some 5 of the racial wealth gap issues that we have 6 in the city, and we have them in the state as 7 well, and is driving at sort of a truly 8 affordable housing option. 9 So it may not come across that way in 10 the statute, but that is the intent. And the 11 130 is really sort of an up-to, and obviously 12 it can provide housing for people less than 13 that as well. 14 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 16 Assemblywoman Niou. 17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Hello, 18 Commissioner. Thank you for joining us 19 today. I just -- I had a couple of 20 questions. I want to echo also my 21 colleagues' sentiments on public housing. 22 And, you know, we should be funding public 23 housing more and not actually stopping the 24 funding. And we should be actually adding 119 1 more to the pot, not taking the pot away. 2 Right? So I think we have to make sure that 3 we are continuing to fund public housing. 4 And I also agree with my other 5 colleague, Latrice, who had talked about, you 6 know, taking the trust out of the budget 7 discussions, because I think it's really 8 important that we actually do not end public 9 housing as we know it. 10 So I also wanted to ask a question. 11 You know, how many affordable housing units 12 do you think we require to meet the needs of 13 the state? And how close does the Governor's 14 plan of creating only 100,000 units close 15 that gap, I guess? 16 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So there 17 have been, you know, several studies that 18 have been done that say that New York City 19 and New York State need to -- have a housing 20 gap of upwards of 500,000 units over the next 21 five to 10 years. That is a doubling or 22 tripling of the production of what New York 23 State does in New York City, what New York 24 City does in New York City, and what the 120 1 private market does in New York City. 2 So I think the need for housing 3 generally is very great, and obviously the 4 need for affordable housing goes hand in 5 glove for that, and that's why we have a -- 6 not only a $4 billion capital ask for the 7 Housing Plan, but also a series of 8 supply-side tools to get at -- we just need 9 more housing in general. 10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Okay. So it's a 11 pretty large difference: 500,000 and 100,000 12 are a really big difference. 13 But we also didn't see -- I wanted to 14 ask about HONDA as a mechanism for that 15 investment. There was no increase in funding 16 about the initial $100 million invested in 17 the last budget into the HONDA program, so I 18 wanted to ask you about that. 19 And then I also wanted to see if you 20 could answer whether -- so HSTPA actually 21 passed in 2019, and DHCR has yet produce an 22 audit report of 25 percent of MCI 23 applications. When can we actually expect 24 that report? 121 1 So those two questions. 2 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I will check 3 on the audit report. Governor Hochul is very 4 committed to all of the agencies getting all 5 of our reports out in a timely fashion, so I 6 don't know about that one exactly, but I'm 7 happy to circle back with you. 8 On HONDA, we -- until about a week 9 ago, we hadn't gotten any applications for 10 the funding program that we put to match with 11 the HONDA legislation. Just about a week ago 12 we had a nonprofit send us a proposal, which 13 we're meeting with them on next week. But we 14 didn't put any additional money in the 15 program because we haven't gotten anyone 16 asking for any money for it. 17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Okay. I will 18 take that back to our {inaudible} -- people 19 are saying that they are -- there's a huge 20 need for it. And it's because there's no 21 funding, so it's the cycle. 22 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yeah. We 23 have a term sheet and a program that we put 24 up. And people, you know, definitely can go 122 1 through you to get to me or they can call me 2 directly. You know, we're happy to talk to 3 people about projects that could use that 4 funding. 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Okay, thank you. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 7 To the Senate. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 9 Senator Tom O'Mara. 10 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you, Senator 11 Krueger. 12 Thank you, Commissioner, for the 13 amount of time you're putting in with us here 14 this evening. 15 A couple of quick questions, I hope. 16 The Executive Budget has an appropriation for 17 $77 million for the Office of Storm Recovery 18 for areas of the state impacted by Hurricanes 19 Irene, Lee and Sandy. Can you give a little 20 detail on what that is for? And if you can 21 then comment on why there isn't anything in 22 there for the impacts to those upstate from 23 Tropical Storm Fred this summer who FEMA has 24 denied individual assistance to. 123 1 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So as you 2 may recall, the Governor's Office of Storm 3 Recovery got about $4 billion for Irene, 4 Sandy and Lee that was both for housing -- 5 which was for the majority of the funding in 6 the early part of the program; we don't see 7 very much past those storms -- and then for a 8 series of infrastructure and what are called 9 community reconstruction projects. 10 Early on in the program there was more 11 money shifted into housing that had been -- 12 there had been commitments made around 13 infrastructure and community reconstruction 14 projects. So that $77 million is meant to 15 fulfill the commitment from a couple of years 16 ago, a sort of a fixed set of community 17 reconstruction projects. 18 I would note also -- I'm sure your 19 district may not have been impacted by 20 Hurricane Ida, but we are expecting 21 additional federal funds to come for that to 22 the Governor's Office of Storm Recovery. 23 As it relates to Hurricane Fred, you 24 know, the money that we usually get is 124 1 long-term reconstruction and recovery money, 2 not sort of the FEMA dollars. So I'm not as 3 familiar with that. But happy to follow up 4 on it. 5 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. Thanks. 6 In the time I have left, with 7 New York's Green New Deal -- and we're in a 8 year of review now on what actions the state 9 is going to take through the Climate Action 10 Council. What analysis has DHCR done in 11 regards to converting its housing to 12 electric? What's the feasibility of that, 13 the cost of that, and who's going to pay it? 14 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So there was 15 a fair amount of work done in the CLCPA 16 process. I chaired the Energy Efficiency and 17 Housing Panel, and there was a series of 18 consultants that looked at the housing stock, 19 looked at costs for conversion, looked at 20 technology available for conversion. 21 There's not necessarily in -- sort of 22 the New York City-built environment for 23 electrification of all big buildings; we're 24 sort of not there yet. But what we have done 125 1 in the Housing Plan is include in our 2 baseline programs funding so that our new 3 construction can be electric so that our 4 preservation projects can be, if not electric 5 today, if they can be electric-ready so that 6 as we transition off the grid, they are ready 7 at that time, whether that's weatherization 8 or whatever type of work that they need to 9 do. 10 So we are very much trying to align 11 our work with that, based on a lot of work 12 that was done by a series of consultants that 13 underpinned the CLCPA recommendations. 14 SENATOR O'MARA: What do you mean by 15 "with regards to larger buildings, we're not 16 really there yet"? 17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: My 18 understanding is that you can't electrify, 19 for example, like a domestic hot water for a 20 40-story building yet, that the technology 21 isn't there. So we are -- so I think the 22 city itself also has put in Local Law 97 to 23 get new construction to switch to electric, I 24 think by 2027. So I think that's giving some 126 1 time for the technology to sort of catch up 2 for some of the larger built environment. 3 But I think for the majority it's 4 certainly the things that we finance at HCR 5 that are commonly, you know, 15 stories or 6 less, we feel confident that we can switch 7 our new construction to electric in almost 8 all of our projects across the state. 9 SENATOR O'MARA: For new, but not 10 existing? 11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: And for 12 preservation I think it's a little more 13 complicated, and not every building can sort 14 of immediately get off of fossil fuel and 15 electrify. Whether that means they have to 16 do -- you know, they have to be well-sealed, 17 so whether that's windows or weatherization, 18 that we can't just sort of electrify without 19 that work. So we're going to phase that in 20 over the next couple of years. 21 But, you know, we're very focused on 22 it. 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I'm 24 sorry, I have to cut you off, Tom. Thank 127 1 you. 2 Assembly. 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 4 Schmitt. 5 ASSEMBLYMAN SCHMITT: Thank you. 6 Commissioner, thanks for your time. 7 I was wondering, I was -- I saw that 8 the Office of Rent Administration's overall 9 budget has increased to I believe over 10 18 million this year. Is there a specific 11 reason that's such a steep increase? 12 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So the 13 majority of that, about 15 million of it, is 14 really a transfer from ITS into HCR's budget, 15 for technology -- for our technology project. 16 ASSEMBLYMAN SCHMITT: Could you just 17 explain that to me, what is the technology 18 project specifically? 19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Oh, sure. 20 So our operating system is very old 21 and we have been in a very protracted process 22 where we are transitioning off of our old 23 system into a new processing system, and so 24 ITS is -- and we have previously been working 128 1 with a vendor who we're not anymore, we're 2 now working directly with ITS. 3 So this is funding that would go 4 towards the scoping and the build of that 5 technology. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN SCHMITT: And so you 7 expect it to be a one-off expense? 8 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yes. Yes. 9 So this is meant to cover that expense. It's 10 not a recurring expense. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN SCHMITT: And I hear from 12 a lot of my small property owners, a lot of 13 the folks in my district that might own a 14 building, they might own a few units in the 15 Hudson Valley and upstate. And most of what 16 they're dealing with is, you know, 17 nonpayment, nonpayment proceedings if it's 18 reached that point. 19 And obviously we've seen some 20 suggestions or some efforts have been made 21 about how we can combat this additional 22 request for federal funding, et cetera, et 23 cetera. But what if that doesn't come 24 through, what if some of the proposals just 129 1 don't work out? What is the last fallback 2 for these taxpayers? Is there -- where can 3 they look if everything else fails? They're 4 very concerned. What is their final 5 fallback? 6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I mean, as 7 it relates to the rental assistance, you 8 know, as you know, that's being run out of 9 OTDA, so my information on that is a little 10 bit limited. 11 I do understand, as you may have seen 12 in the budget, that there is $2 billion that 13 is being reserved to, you know, potentially 14 go towards that rental assistance. And I 15 think the Governor -- I've heard her say 16 this, and I'm sure you have too, she is very 17 sympathetic to small landlords and small 18 business owners who are suffering a lot from 19 this. I think there had been maybe some 20 initial programs at ESD for landlords, and we 21 had had some initially too, but I think at 22 this time there is that. 23 The $2 billion is there sort of as a 24 placeholder to address -- should their money 130 1 not come from the federal government for 2 rental arrears. 3 ASSEMBLYMAN SCHMITT: Thank you. 4 Thank you, Chairs. 5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Let's 6 see. 7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, we have 9 Brian Kavanagh. But do you still want to 10 wait for the last Assemblymember before you 11 go, Brian? 12 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Yeah, I think 13 people should have their first round first, 14 so. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Back to 16 you, Assemblymember. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman 18 Bichotte Hermelyn, who will be followed by 19 Assemblywoman Kelles, to be followed by 20 Assemblyman Meeks. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE HERMELYN: 22 Thank you so much. Thank you, Commissioner, 23 for being here and for your testimony. 24 I have a couple of -- well, three 131 1 questions. So I will state my questions 2 first. My office has been working with a lot 3 of constituents regarding the ERAP program, 4 and some of the questions that arise was for 5 the remaining funds, how are the remaining 6 applications being selected? Is it on a 7 first come, first served basis? 8 We have an issue with language access. 9 We have a high need for Haitian Creole, Urdu 10 and Spanish. And we also have a high need to 11 get someone on the phone, who can be live, 12 versus an automated customer service process. 13 That's an issue, as well as the elders who 14 are trying to apply, they don't have access 15 to the online process. And so very similar 16 to SCRIE, is there a way that there can be a 17 paper process that we can help them? 18 So that's question number one around 19 the ERAP, LRAP program. 20 Question number two is around the 21 Tenant Protection Unit. I did see, under the 22 state appropriations section, there was about 23 5.5 million allocated. Typically, over the 24 course of the years, I think it was like 132 1 $10 million and up. I wanted to know why the 2 decrease in the Tenant Protection Unit. And 3 I agree with my colleagues, we're not talking 4 much about it. 5 And the last question is around the 6 421-a replacement, which I still need to get 7 my hands around. The Affordable 8 Neighborhoods for New York tax incentive 9 programs -- like my colleagues, I do have 10 some concerns about how this program is being 11 put together. But on top of everything that 12 was said about it, there was still no talks 13 about minority and women business 14 enterprise participation and goals -- 15 nothing. And again, that's a concern. 16 Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So I'll go 18 in reverse order. Or, I'm sorry, I'll go in 19 your order. 20 On ERAP, I don't have too much to 21 offer on ERAP. The OTDA is taking the lead 22 on that, which I'm sure you know, and they 23 have a new commissioner who just started a 24 couple of weeks ago. And I know he is very, 133 1 very focused on getting a lot of the issues 2 and a lot of backlog addressed. 3 So, you know, I'm sure that's 4 something that he can speak to more than I 5 can. 6 On the Tenant Protection Unit, so we 7 have been at 5.5 million for a couple of 8 years. I think for maybe a while before that 9 it had been coupled in with the overall ORA 10 budget. But 5.5 for us is full funding for 11 the 25 staff for TPU. So it isn't a 12 reduction of where we've been since the unit 13 really started. 14 And on 421-a, I think that's a fair 15 question on MWBEs and something we'd be happy 16 to talk more about with you. 17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE HERMELYN: 18 Thank you. 19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 20 Assemblywoman Kelles. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Hi, and good 22 afternoon, Commissioner. 23 I want to start by saying I deeply 24 appreciate the strategies outlines and 134 1 appreciate the focus on building more 2 affordable housing. That's so important. 3 But I did want to add that I'm concerned by 4 the lack of focus on keeping existing tenants 5 in place and creating short-term 6 stabilization so that as the programs you 7 mentioned in the budget roll out, they reach 8 the very people we're trying to reach. Sort 9 of that triage. 10 And I think Good Cause really does 11 create that. It still allows landlords to 12 raise rents significantly and evict tenants 13 if they break other stipulations of the 14 lease. And I would also add that states like 15 New Jersey have had this since 1974, and 16 they've had a really positive experience. So 17 it's not like there's not a precedent set. 18 I'd love to see it reconsidered for 19 the 30 days. So I just wanted to make that 20 note. 21 And I wanted to skip over and say 22 thank you so much for including the ADUs. I 23 think this is really important. And just to 24 address some of the concerns that have been 135 1 raised by some of the questioners here, the 2 language actually does include the precaution 3 for safety issues, health/safety issues, that 4 limitations can be created if septic capacity 5 shows that, is one. And the other is that 6 there are restrictions on requiring extra 7 parking, so the consideration of like hugely 8 increasing traffic. 9 So I wanted to thank you, and I really 10 do think the details address that. 11 So I have just one question. The 12 Governor mentioned 50 million for a Tenant 13 Opportunity to Purchase Act sort of 14 component. But from what I'm seeing, it 15 looks more like a community land bank program 16 that would still require financing through a 17 private banking system and not necessarily 18 enable existing tenants to purchase their 19 homes through a government assistance 20 program, which is more what we think of as 21 TOPA. 22 So could you talk a little bit more 23 about how you're hoping this will improve 24 tenants' ability to stay in place and protect 136 1 them if they aren't able to access those 2 private banking programs? 3 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So the -- 4 it's a little bit of a different strategy, I 5 think. But happy to talk a little bit more 6 about it with you. 7 But the $50 million that we are 8 looking at within our homeownership program 9 is really driving folks to bring us proposals 10 for homeownership projects on community land 11 trust-owned land and land bank-owned land, or 12 -- and is structured as permanently 13 affordable, more community control and sort 14 of a change in governance, whether that's a 15 limited equity co-op or some other type of 16 structure that people want to propose to us. 17 So we're really trying to drive with 18 that actually sort of new construction of 19 sort of alternative models around permanent, 20 you know, change in governance for 21 homeownership. But I think happy to talk 22 more about existing tenants and what 23 opportunities there might be there. 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Yeah, I think 137 1 these two pieces, I want to just, you know, 2 really emphasize allowing for a more 3 TOPA-focused, which would -- a grant program, 4 a government program specifically, one. And 5 then Good Cause. It would be great to see 6 both of those. I really think it rounds out 7 the package that you have. 8 So thank you so much. 9 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Thanks. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And Assemblyman 11 Meeks. Desmond, you're on. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: You're going to 13 have to stop giving me that S. It's Demond. 14 Thank you, Chair. No S. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I need new 16 glasses. 17 (Laughter.) 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Start the time 19 over again, please. I really do need new 20 glasses. 21 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: So thank you all. 22 Thank you, Commissioner. 23 I have a question regarding HONDA. As 24 it relates to the funding, it's my 138 1 understanding that it applies -- there's 2 resources for New York City. Are there 3 additional resources for upstate cities? 4 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So the 5 legislation that was -- the appropriation 6 that was passed last year came with a series 7 of sort of stipulations that was just for 8 New York City, so we created a term sheet to 9 be able to spend that money in New York City 10 in accordance with the language in the 11 appropriation, which was very specific about 12 what it could be used for. 13 In terms of upstate and people being 14 able to convert hotels or office buildings, 15 you know, folks can come -- no one has come 16 and asked us just generally for resources on 17 that. I think if there are folks maybe in 18 your district who have sites that they may be 19 thinking of doing that with, I would just 20 encourage them to come talk to us and let us 21 figure out if we can find a way to do that. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Okay. And also as 23 it relates to some of the development that's 24 taking place throughout the state, I know 139 1 we've had our share in Rochester from DASNY. 2 Just wondering, are there things in place to 3 assure -- or can we put something in place to 4 assure that individuals from these zip codes 5 in these particular communities have an 6 opportunity to generate wealth from building 7 the project, as opposed to, Hey, here's more 8 low-income housing, you can live here, but 9 you don't have an opportunity to generate 10 wealth by building. 11 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: You mean by 12 being part of the development team that does 13 the projects? 14 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Absolutely, yes. 15 Or -- or the opportunity to be a laborer, you 16 know, for the development. 17 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: So we have a 18 30 percent requirement of our spend to go to 19 MWBEs, and we take that very seriously. And 20 we have year over year been very successful 21 on the development side of getting that met. 22 We also work fairly closely, and will 23 continue to, with our partners at ESD to make 24 sure people can get access to the 140 1 certification program and so that people are 2 aware of how to find MWBEs by trade. 3 So we're very focused on that and 4 would be happy to talk more about ways to do 5 it even more and be better about it. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Thank you. 7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 8 So I think we're -- the Assembly is 9 finished, and we go back to the Senate for, I 10 guess, Senator Kavanagh. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank 12 you. For the closing round for Senator Brian 13 Kavanagh. 14 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you. 15 Just a couple of quick questions -- 16 hopefully quick. You had this exchange with 17 Assemblywoman Walker about the Affordable 18 Housing Corporation. I think, you know, the 19 Governor signed in December the bill that 20 increased the per unit allocation for that. 21 A lot of us expected that that would come 22 with a comparable increase in the overall 23 program. 24 Can you tell us -- you know, can you 141 1 get back to us about what it would take to 2 have that increase not result in a 3 diminishment of the units? How much money 4 would we have to put in to keep that program 5 at the same rate? That would be helpful. 6 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: Yup. 7 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Second, just -- 8 you've had a couple of questions where you've 9 had to say, Well, that's OTDA -- recognizing 10 that a lot of the housing stock is across 11 different agencies, and we will have a Social 12 Services hearing on Wednesday. 13 But I think a lot of the concern stems 14 from the fact that there are different 15 agencies -- beyond ERAP there are different 16 agencies involved in providing housing, both 17 subsidies like the rental assistance subsidy, 18 and then also permanent housing. There are 19 actually some capital programs in OTDA's 20 budget. 21 I think that -- just a general 22 question. Is there any assessment that the 23 state overall can offer as -- to the extent 24 this budget overall is providing substantial 142 1 spending on housing, how big a dent does it 2 make in our critical needs, given the fact 3 that we have 90-some-odd-thousand homeless 4 people at any given moment, and the fact that 5 we have, you know, very serious underfunding 6 and undermaintenance of the housing we have? 7 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: I mean, I 8 think there's -- someone else said this, I 9 don't know who it was, that you can't really 10 like build your way out of, you know, a lot 11 of these issues. 12 But I think what we're trying to do 13 here is really create -- and I think that's 14 true for the state housing agency and for the 15 New York City housing agency, I think we feel 16 like we keep building -- you know, we've had 17 decades of Housing Plan investment and 18 there's still an affordability crisis and we 19 really need additional tools, which is sort 20 of what we've tried to put together here, 21 whether it's hotel and commercial conversions 22 or -- I know these are not all popular, but 23 either TOD or ADU or 12 FAR. And 421-a 24 really is trying to put together a really big 143 1 strategy to say we really need production of 2 housing at a really big scale, we need to be 3 bigger than we are now. Doing, you know, 4 20,000 units or so a year in New York City is 5 not going to cut it if we want to maintain 6 population growth and job growth. 7 And frankly it limits our economics 8 and our ability to grow regionally. It 9 creates, you know, a shortage, it creates 10 overcrowding, it creates racial segregation. 11 Like there's just a lot embedded in our lack 12 of sort of supply in housing. So -- 13 SENATOR KAVANAGH: As our housing 14 commissioner -- I'm sorry to interrupt -- I 15 mean, the rental subsidies and eviction 16 prevention subsidies are -- should be a 17 significant tool, right, even though they're 18 not necessarily in your bailiwick. 19 COMMISSIONER VISNAUSKAS: We need 20 those things too. You know, we were hoping, 21 should Build Back better have been passed, 22 that we were going to get upwards of 20,000 23 more vouchers in the State of New York, which 24 would have been amazing. 144 1 So, you know, I think we feel like 2 there is no one single solution to this 3 problem. 4 SENATOR KAVANAGH: To be continued. I 5 am going to ask that we -- you know, as this 6 budget process unfolds, that we try to have a 7 conversation across agencies and across 8 silos. And, you know, we're also having a 9 separate hearing in two days, so it's not 10 just the Executive. But I think we all need 11 to get together and figure out what the 12 overall impact of these programs is. 13 But thank you so much for your 14 testimony today. And thank you, Chairs, for 15 indulging me. 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So you're 18 finished, Senator Krueger? 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We're finished, 20 yes. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So are we. 22 So RuthAnne, thank you for being here 23 with us and spending so much time. 24 We're now, colleagues, going to move 145 1 to the public portion of this hearing. 2 You'll notice that we have the witness list 3 grouped in panels with individuals who are 4 going to basically address similar issues in 5 each panel. 6 Just a reminder, the witnesses have 7 three minutes to present their testimony. 8 When all the witnesses in the panel have 9 finished, any members who wish to ask a 10 question of the panel would have three 11 minutes to ask one question. 12 And I would just encourage people to 13 be mindful of the fact that we do have a lot 14 of public witnesses. We've tried to have as 15 many as possible. We know it's going to be a 16 late night. We appreciate people staying 17 with us. But I will in advance thank all of 18 the people who are about to come before us to 19 speak for all of the good work they do in the 20 community. So there's -- and I'll say that 21 on behalf of all of the members, so there's 22 not a need for everybody individually to 23 thank the people for the work they do in the 24 neighborhood. 146 1 And that being said, we'll call 2 Panel A. If I skip a name off the witness 3 list, that means they've -- since the time 4 the witness list was prepared, they have 5 determined that they would just submit their 6 testimony and don't wish to testify in 7 person. 8 So we have the association for -- I 9 think we have to let them into the hearing. 10 Ashley has to let them into the hearing. 11 THE MODERATOR: I believe that all of 12 Panel A that we have is in. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I see them, 14 they're on page 2 of the Zoom. Hi. Hi, all. 15 So we have, from the Association for 16 Neighborhood and Housing Development, Barika 17 Williams, executive director; from the 18 Community Preservation Corporation, Erin 19 Burns-Maine, chief of staff; from the 20 New York Housing Conference, Rachel Fee, 21 executive director; and from Habitat for 22 Humanity of New York State, Mary Robinson, 23 chief executive officer. 24 If you can go in that order, and be 147 1 mindful of the three-minute time clock. We 2 have distributed your testimony to all of the 3 members of the committees who are 4 participating today. So to the best you can, 5 summarize your testimony, and I think we can 6 have a meaningful dialogue going forward. So 7 if we -- 8 THE MODERATOR: We also -- I'm sorry 9 to interrupt -- have Baaba Halm. I'm not 10 sure -- she can tell us her organization that 11 she's from. She was a last-minute addition 12 to the witness list. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Is that 14 Enterprise? 15 MS. HALM: Yes. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, yes, 17 there was a retyping of the -- you were left 18 off initially when the witness list went out. 19 Okay. So if we can go in that order 20 and start with Association for Neighborhood 21 and Housing Development, please, three 22 minutes. 23 MS. WILLIAMS: Hello, everybody, good 24 evening. My name is Barika Williams. I'm 148 1 the executive director at the Association for 2 Neighborhood and Housing Development, or 3 ANHD. 4 I just want to do a quick thank you to 5 all the chairs for the opportunity to testify 6 and for everybody, all of you all, especially 7 for sticking with all of us through this long 8 evening to really testify on the 9 housing-related proposals in the Governor's 10 FY '22-'23 Executive Budget. 11 I'm not going to go through my full 12 and very long testimony that covers a number 13 of areas and different topics. I'm going to 14 try to -- I couldn't catch all of the 15 commissioner's testimony, but I'm going to 16 try to hit certain parts that I think were 17 either questioned or things that maybe you 18 all raised that would I think need to be 19 addressed. 20 So first off I want to thank the 21 Senate and Assembly for your ongoing support 22 of ANHD's Displacement Alert Project, DAP, 23 which during COVID really helped communities 24 and you all, elected officials and your 149 1 staff, monitor hotspots of where tenants were 2 at the highest risk of eviction and really do 3 outreach to New Yorkers to keep them in their 4 homes. 5 Many community members and some of 6 your staff really used this as walking sheets 7 to try to address the threats that we were 8 seeing on the ground. And because of your 9 support and investment, we had the tools 10 ready to go to do this analysis. And for the 11 first time, advocates and government partners 12 can now view eviction cases filed in their 13 districts at an individual building level 14 throughout New York City. 15 So this has become an incredibly 16 powerful tool, and we hope that you will 17 continue to support us with a budget 18 allocation of $150,000 so that we can 19 continue operating this, as we know we are 20 going into a critical time when it comes to 21 the threats of eviction and displacement. 22 I'm going to touch on TOPA and CLT, 23 because that has come up a few times, and 24 just to ask for clarification, maybe for you 150 1 all to try to get a little bit more clarity 2 for us as well. ANHD supports the passage of 3 the TOPA bill and for the community land 4 trust acquisition fund legislation. 5 And it seems like from the 6 commissioner's response, the proposed budget 7 includes a $50 million pilot program that 8 could be used across both of those, 9 potentially. I think that sounds incredibly 10 disappointing from our point of view. These 11 are two different programs, both of which 12 deserve funding and dedicated funding and 13 support in order for them to move forward and 14 actually have a real chance. 15 And then lastly I will quickly hit 16 421-a, which many folks highlighted. And we 17 obviously want to see the end of 421-a, are 18 not in support of the revised 421-a, the 19 remake to 485-w in the Governor's proposal. 20 There's a number of significant concerns and 21 questions here, one of which fundamentally 22 is, you know, how many affordable housing 23 units, homelessness vouchers, et cetera, 24 could we be using and creating with 151 1 $1.5 billion a year, which is what 421-a 2 costs us. 3 We fundamentally feel like the current 4 proposal keeps in place many of the flaws of 5 the original 421-a program and that we should 6 be using this for affordable housing dollars, 7 not to subsidize market-rate rents. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. We 9 move on to Community Preservation 10 Corporation. 11 MS. BURNS-MAINE: Hi, good evening. 12 Thank you, Senator Krueger, Assemblymember 13 Weinstein, Housing Chairs Cymbrowitz and 14 Kavanagh, and other distinguished members of 15 the New York State Legislature for the 16 opportunity to speak today. 17 My name is Erin Burns-Maine. I'm 18 chief of staff and vice president of policy 19 for the Community Preservation Corporation. 20 There is a housing crisis. Our 21 testimony submitted includes some of the 22 data, and we heard much of it already today. 23 The core of the solution to this housing 24 crisis is simple: Build and preserve as much 152 1 quality affordable housing as possible. The 2 Governor's budget takes important steps 3 towards this goal, and CPC looks forward to 4 continuing to work with the state to build 5 and preserve New York's housing stock. 6 Small buildings -- and I'm going to 7 talk a bit about small buildings today -- 8 those with less than 50 units account for 9 70 percent of the affordable housing in New 10 York State. They are a critical source of 11 quality affordable housing stock and are a 12 great resource for our neighborhoods. To 13 date, CPC has invested $47 million through 14 HCR's Small Buildings Participation Loan 15 Program, creating 172 new affordable units. 16 And we applaud the continued investment into 17 this important program in the Executive 18 Budget. 19 Small rental building owners have been 20 disproportionately impacted by the pandemic. 21 A recent survey of our building owners that 22 we compared against a larger data set of 23 larger buildings across the city showed that 24 small buildings had higher rates of tenants 153 1 in significant arrears. And those tenants 2 are actually less likely to have applied for 3 rent relief through the ERAP program than 4 those in large buildings. 5 The Landlord Rental Assistance 6 Program, which was created by the state and 7 funded for $100 million in FY '22, was much 8 more accessible to small landlords and 9 affordable housing providers, effectively 10 preventing evictions and keeping landlords 11 and tenants out of court. That initial pot 12 of money was spent far too quickly. I think 13 it was out for about six weeks, which is 14 indicative of the need. We would really like 15 to see another allocation of funding into 16 this pool to again keep tenants and building 17 owners out of court. Those who are facing 18 pandemic-related hardships we would like to 19 see preventing evictions, prioritizing a 20 streamlined accessible program like LRAP. 21 With the Affordable Neighborhoods for 22 All New Yorkers legislation, the 23 administration does recognize the critical 24 role that small affordable rental buildings 154 1 play as a backbone in our communities, and 2 the unique challenges that are faced in 3 funding those developments. We're glad to 4 see affordability requirements for buildings 5 with 30 or fewer units that really balances 6 the financing needs of small buildings with 7 the goal of requiring deeper affordability to 8 our households. 9 More broadly, we cannot address the 10 affordable housing crisis without land use. 11 The new Transit-Oriented Development Act is a 12 step in the right direction. 13 And lastly, as we wrap up, any budget 14 passed by the state cannot overlook the 15 urgent needs of the New York City Housing 16 Authority residents. We would urge the state 17 both to consider a significant allocation of 18 capital, $1.5 billion, as well as legislative 19 solutions and fixes like the public trust or 20 any other legislative solutions that NYCHA 21 can meet. We believe NYCHA needs all the 22 tools in the toolbox. 23 Thank you for your time. 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 155 1 Now we move on to the New York Housing 2 Conference. 3 MS. FEE: Good evening. My name is 4 Rachel Fee. I'm executive director of the 5 New York Housing Conference, an affordable 6 housing policy and advocacy organization. 7 Thank you for the opportunity to comment 8 today. 9 We are encouraged by Governor Hochul's 10 $4.5 billion Housing Plan, which aligns with 11 many of the recommendations we issued in a 12 December report in coalition with 16 partner 13 organizations. But it does fall short of the 14 6 billion in new funding we seek, plus an 15 additional 1.5 billion annually for NYCHA. 16 The Housing Plan represents only 17 7.5 percent of the total $92 billion in the 18 state's capital budget for housing. That 19 means it's less than transportation, higher 20 education, economic development, parks and 21 environmental capital. We believe that 22 affordable housing must be a priority. 23 We are generally supportive of the 24 proposed programming, but the next five-year 156 1 Housing Plan must come with improved 2 transparency and require public reporting 3 posted on the New York State Homes and 4 Community Renewal website. We hope the 5 enacted budget requires this basic reporting 6 requirement. 7 We also recommend the following to be 8 included in the enacted budget. A portion of 9 the 2 billion in pandemic relief reserves 10 should be used to supplement ERAP, and the 11 Housing Access Voucher Program should be 12 taken up as a long-term solution. We support 13 the Governor's proposal for legal assistance 14 across the state. 15 For public housing, we believe the 16 city and state must partner on a long-term 17 funding strategy to pay for NYCHA's 18 $40 billion capital repairs, and the state 19 should allocate a million of 1.5 billion this 20 year, as I previously mentioned. We also 21 hope to see an increase in public housing 22 developments outside of New York City in the 23 enacted budget. 24 Regarding fair housing, we support the 157 1 Eliminating Barriers to Accessing Housing in 2 New York program, and we believe an 3 additional 1 million is needed to fund fair 4 housing programs. 5 Regarding senior housing, we recommend 6 the creation of an independent senior 7 affordable housing assistance program to 8 offer a service coordinator model in 9 congregate senior housing. 10 We recognize that with this funding 11 increase across programs, HCR must be 12 adequately staffed and funded. 13 We commend the Governor on her land 14 use proposals and enthusiastically support 15 the Transit-Oriented Development Act of 2022, 16 the Creating Housing Opportunities Through 17 Building Conversion Act, accessory dwelling 18 unit legislation, the repeal of the 12 FAR 19 cap in New York City. 20 And we also support recent legislation 21 by Senator May -- that's S7635 -- which would 22 enhance the state's ability to encourage 23 affordable housing production with the 24 creation of a housing appeals board. 158 1 Throughout the state, exclusionary zoning is 2 a common barrier to the supply shortage we 3 face. 4 We'd also like to see the state take 5 advantage of its own assets and utilize 6 state-owned land to create housing 7 opportunities, and we believe that should be 8 part of this conversation to add to 9 New York's housing stock. 10 I look forward to any questions. 11 Thank you. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. We 13 move on to Habitat for Humanity of New York 14 State, three minutes. 15 MS. ROBINSON: Good evening. On 16 behalf of Habitat for Humanity's 17 40 affiliates throughout New York, thank you 18 for the opportunity to speak today and share 19 the need for greater investment in 20 homeownership opportunities for low-income 21 New Yorkers. 22 Habitat for Humanity affiliates work 23 in urban and rural areas, upstate and 24 downstate, building and rehabilitating homes 159 1 for low-income residents, ensuring homebuyers 2 pay no more than 30 percent of their income 3 for their homes. We build homes in part 4 using volunteer labor and public donations, 5 but with rising costs, these funds are not 6 enough to meet the need. Each home 7 represents long-term housing stability for a 8 hardworking family. Homeownership is often 9 left out in discussions of affordable 10 housing, and we are grateful that the 11 proposed budget includes such a significant 12 investment in it. 13 The primary state-financed source that 14 our affiliates in New York utilize is the 15 Affordable Housing Corporation. Since its 16 establishment in 1985, AHC's budget has only 17 increased from $25 million to $26 million per 18 year -- but construction costs have 19 skyrocketed. 20 Last month Governor Hochul signed a 21 bill that will increase AHC's maximum 22 per-unit allocation. We are thankful for all 23 your support in updating these funding 24 levels, but without a corresponding increase 160 1 in allocations to the program, this bill will 2 produce fewer subsidized homes for those in 3 need. We are requesting an overall budget 4 increase for the Affordable Housing 5 Corporation from 26 million to 50 million. 6 And while AHC is the primary 7 state-funding program we have used, we 8 support adding additional programs for 9 acquisition and construction to promote our 10 work in affordable housing throughout the 11 state. 12 Also we would like to see funding 13 devoted towards lead and asbestos abatement. 14 Our aging housing stock has presented an 15 opportunity for us to rehabilitate vacant, 16 abandoned homes. Unfortunately the 17 remediation costs make many of the projects 18 impossible for us to take on. Additional 19 funding will help put more New Yorkers into 20 safe, stable, affordable homes, and aid in 21 increasing the property tax revenue for 22 municipalities. 23 Finally, we support efforts to keep 24 homes affordable and promote sustainable, 161 1 permanent, affordable homeownership 2 opportunities. These include a community 3 land trust tax relief bill that will provide 4 fair and stable tax treatment for homes on 5 CLTs, and an accessory homes enabling act 6 that will provide the right for homeowners to 7 build accessory dwelling units on their 8 properties, including an exemption of new 9 ADUs from the Multiple Dwelling Law. And the 10 400 million in additional capital base 11 sources for ownership, but we'd love to see 12 more details on how that will be allocated. 13 Thank you again for the opportunity to 14 testify and for your consideration of Habitat 15 for Humanity's positions. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Enterprise 17 Community Partners next. 18 MS. HALM: Thank you. 19 Good evening. My name is Baaba Halm, 20 and I am the vice president and market leader 21 for the New York office of Enterprise 22 Community Partners. Thank you for the 23 opportunity to testify today. 24 We also thank the Governor for 162 1 prioritizing housing in her capital budget. 2 Today we join our partners to ask that 3 the Governor and Legislature work together to 4 fully address New York's housing needs. New 5 York State is in the midst of the worst 6 homelessness crisis since the Great 7 Depression. When the state's eviction 8 moratorium expired on January 15th, 9 New Yorkers faced over 180,000 nonpayment 10 eviction cases across the state. 11 The Housing Access Voucher Program 12 would provide a long-term rental voucher to 13 families that are homeless or at risk of 14 homelessness, and would be available to 15 undocumented New Yorkers. It is critical 16 that the state direct 1 billion for this 17 program. 18 We also ask that short-term emergency 19 solutions, like ERAP and LRAP, be funded to 20 support households still recovering from the 21 economic effects of COVID. 22 We applaud the state for passing a 23 package of fair housing bills into law last 24 year. We are further encouraged by the fair 163 1 housing components of the Governor's 2 Executive Budget, including funding for fair 3 housing testing. 4 Enterprise administers the Eliminating 5 Barriers to Housing in New York program, in 6 partnership with the State Attorney General, 7 which enhances the work of fair housing 8 organizations across the state. This work is 9 critically important, but it will disappear 10 without more funding. We call for the state 11 to allocate 15 million, 3 million annually 12 for the next five years, to continue this 13 program. 14 We appreciate the Governor's proposal 15 to prohibit landlords from automatically 16 rejecting applicants with justice 17 involvement. We suggest strengthening this 18 language, including more strong, detailed 19 enforcement mechanisms. 20 We were excited to see the Governor's 21 proposed mechanisms to fight exclusionary 22 zoning in our Housing Plan, and to see the 23 legislation introduced by Senator May to 24 streamline the approval of affordable housing 164 1 in communities with a dearth of it. We look 2 forward to working with the state to further 3 refine these initiatives. 4 And on rural housing, our position is 5 that the state must also create funding 6 streams to meet the needs of small rental 7 housing in rural areas, vital sources of 8 affordable housing. We appreciate the 9 Governor's Housing Plan, which makes 10 reference to preserving rural rental 11 properties and making them more accessible. 12 We look forward to seeing details on how this 13 will be achieved. 14 And on NYCHA, we agree with the other 15 advocates that it's important to acknowledge 16 the significant omission of NYCHA in the 17 five-year Housing Plan. Recent developments 18 in Washington make it clear that we cannot 19 wait for the federal government to intervene 20 and support this critical affordable housing 21 stock. We call on the state and the city to 22 establish a long-term capital plan for public 23 housing, with each providing at least 24 1.5 billion annually. 165 1 And as a member of the Coalition for 2 Affordable Homes, we join the coalition in 3 calling for increased funding for the 4 Homeowner Protection Program, community land 5 trust acquisition funding, the Affordable 6 Housing Corporation, and a CLT taxation 7 exemption. 8 Thank you for the opportunity to 9 testify today. We look forward to our 10 continued work together. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. And 12 if the panel can just wait to be able to 13 answer questions. 14 Senator Krueger, I believe you have a 15 Senator with a question. 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I do. I have 17 Senator Robert Jackson. 18 SENATOR JACKSON: Panel members -- 19 panel members, let me thank you for coming in 20 and giving testimony. It's clearly 21 important. 22 I know, but I'm asking the question, 23 how many of you do not favor the Governor's 24 421-a changes that she laid out in her 166 1 budget? Can you just raise your hand, if you 2 don't mind? And if you have no position, 3 don't raise your hand. But -- okay, so -- 4 mm-hmm. 5 And as far as NYCHA, I've heard you, 6 Baaba, I guess all of you agree the Governor 7 should have addressed NYCHA in the five-year 8 Housing Plan, is that correct? Please raise 9 your hand if you agree with what I just said. 10 Okay. 11 Well, I want to say to all of you that 12 when I look at the 31st Senatorial District 13 that I represent, from Marble Hill, Inwood, 14 West Harlem, going all the way down to 15 Chelsea at 26th Street, a very gerrymandered 16 district 13 miles long, I'm told that I have 17 the most rent-regulated units in the entire 18 state. 19 What about Good Cause Eviction? If 20 you favor that, please raise your hand -- 21 when I say "you," you or your organization -- 22 if you do. Okay. All right. 23 Well, let me thank all of you for 24 coming in. I appreciate your testimony. It 167 1 helps me to focus on the organizations that 2 you represent and what your issues and 3 concerns are. But I would think that all of 4 you -- and I'm going to ask you by raising 5 your hand -- want to make sure that the State 6 of New York increases the amount of building 7 affordable housing so everyone will have a 8 home. If you agree with that, please raise 9 your hand. Okay, I would assume that's what 10 we want. 11 So thank you, Madam Chair, that's 12 enough that I have. And I know that we're 13 trying to move along, so just trying to be 14 very straight to the point. Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 We're going to go to Assemblyman Cymbrowitz 17 for a question. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN CYMBROWITZ: Thank you, 19 Chair. 20 Good evening, everybody. I want to 21 throw out one question to everyone. Based on 22 working with not-for-profits for the last 23 five -- let's just say the last five years, 24 because of the capital plan that we had, how 168 1 easy or difficult was it to work with HCR? 2 And based on the next five-year plan, 3 what changes would you want to see so that 4 the money can get out easier to 5 not-for-profits? 6 MS. HALM: I can start first. 7 HCR has been a great partner among our 8 partner networks, and they have reported 9 that, you know, that HCR is a good partner to 10 work with. So that that -- it doesn't seem 11 to be the agency that is necessarily behind 12 issues and problems. 13 One of the issues that the nonprofits 14 have reported to us is about the increasing 15 insurance premiums and that it is difficult 16 to do business in this state and that there 17 are escalating costs, operating costs and 18 insurance costs, and that that is a challenge 19 that they certainly want HCR and other 20 agencies to help partner to solve around. 21 MS. BURNS-MAINE: I think I would echo 22 that from Baaba. As folks know, CBC is a 23 partner to HCR. We've made incredible 24 process both through the Legacy Cities 169 1 Program, the Participation Loan Program. 2 We've been able to deploy capital quite 3 quickly. We're always standing at the ready 4 if there are things that folks want to figure 5 out and troubleshoot in order to make them 6 more efficient. But we've been really happy 7 with the partnership of HCR and the 8 leadership there. 9 I would also echo what you heard from 10 Baaba, that I think some of the concerns that 11 we're hearing from not-for-profit developers 12 are the increased costs for capital 13 construction, supply chain issues, insurance 14 premiums. The costs go up, things are taking 15 longer. And those are things I think are 16 even more universal than just even in 17 New York that folks are dealing with. 18 MS. ROBINSON: I won't repeat what has 19 just been said, but I agree with everything 20 they said. 21 I want to share our primary 22 interaction with HCR is through the AHC 23 program, and HCR has been an incredible 24 partner to Habitat for Humanity. 170 1 We also utilize the SONYMA loan 2 program, and they have a Habitat product that 3 we utilize which has also been fantastic. 4 You know, our only hope is that we can 5 get our applications reviewed faster. And I 6 think -- I think that's an issue across state 7 agencies, not unique to HCR. So we're really 8 grateful for their partnership. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: I would likewise echo 10 what others have said. 11 I think the one clarification I would 12 make, Chair Cymbrowitz, which speaks to also 13 a question that I think Assemblymember 14 Bichotte asked earlier, is that not all of 15 the five-year Housing Plan utilizes 16 non-for-profit developers specifically. It's 17 not clear what percentage goes to for-profit 18 versus nonprofit developers, and that may 19 vary also in different parts of the state. 20 And likewise, you know, some questions 21 and concerns that I know many in downstate 22 but also in parts of upstate have raised is 23 what share of the projects are going to MWBE 24 developers. And we often see this 171 1 specifically because we often have nonprofits 2 being led by a person of color partnering 3 with an MWBE as a joint venture, but that's 4 not necessarily projects that always get 5 prioritized or moved through the pipeline. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 7 We move on to the Senate. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry, I lost my 9 mute button for a second. 10 Senator Brian Kavanagh, Housing chair. 11 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thanks very much. 12 And I want to thank everyone on this 13 panel for your testimony today, but also each 14 of you have been very important resources as 15 we've tried to grapple with the housing 16 crisis in the last couple of years and, more 17 broadly, housing policy over many years -- 18 you know, from the fair housing stuff we did 19 to all of our attempts to fund these programs 20 adequately. So I appreciate everybody here. 21 Just -- several of you testified that 22 we should do $1.5 billion additional, and I 23 think that's an annual figure for public 24 housing in New York for NYCHA. So just is 172 1 there -- the administration has said, well, 2 you know, we're still hopeful we're going to 3 see something from the federal government. 4 Is it -- it's just effectively none of you 5 are buying the notion that the state should 6 wait and see, and that we should in this 7 capital plan address that need in a serious 8 way. Is that a fair summary? 9 MS. BURNS-MAINE: I can only speak for 10 my position, but on behalf of CPC I think 11 that is a concern, that if we were to have 12 seen a significant infusion of capital, it 13 would have happened under, you know, a 14 Democratic White House with control of the 15 House and Senate wanting to invest a 16 significant amount of money into public 17 infrastructure. And for a glimmering moment 18 $80 billion for public housing capital 19 nationally was included. 20 Unfortunately, it does not seem 21 like -- I mean, the bill is stalled 22 indefinitely. I have not heard much hopeful 23 things about it. 24 I think my concern and our concern for 173 1 NYCHA residents is that they have been 2 waiting already too long. We are all 3 familiar with the conditions that are 4 impacting NYCHA residents' health and safety 5 on a day-to-day basis. And the fear is we 6 cannot continue to wait. These programs take 7 a long time even just to deploy the money to 8 get things moving. 9 So it's our position that NYCHA should 10 be given all the tools possible from the city 11 and state. At this point it feels like as 12 New Yorkers we need to start talking about 13 how, not if, just given the way conditions 14 have deteriorated. And I don't think that it 15 is responsible for us to keep holding out 16 hope for the money at the federal level. 17 MS. FEE: And to build on Erin's 18 comments, so New York Housing Conference put 19 out recommendations for the next five-year 20 Housing Plan, and in coalition with 16 21 organizations we all agreed that absent 22 federal funding, the city and state should 23 work together, and we would like to see each 24 level of government allocate $1.5 billion 174 1 annually. 2 And I would just say that that 3 long-term strategy and agreement between city 4 and state is equally as important as the 5 funding this year. NYCHA shouldn't just be 6 getting one-off funding, not knowing what to 7 expect year after year. There is urgency and 8 we know what their needs are and we really 9 call on the Governor and the Legislature to 10 work together with Mayor Adams to establish a 11 long-term funding plan. 12 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I think as you 13 know, I agree. We can talk about what the 14 number is, but it is very important. 15 One quick question. Mary Robinson, 16 you mentioned lead and asbestos abatement 17 funding. Do you have a number on that? I 18 think I didn't see one in the testimony. Is 19 there a proposed amount for -- 20 MS. ROBINSON: So we've looked into 21 what costs we would have, and we have come up 22 with 12 to 15 million. 23 I know there's been previous funds 24 through the Attorney General's office and -- 175 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We will have 2 some people later on testifying about the 3 lead issues who may have some more 4 information for the members. 5 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay, good. So 6 just, Mary, if you do have any follow-up, if 7 you could let us know. But thank you. 8 MS. ROBINSON: Yeah, absolutely. 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 10 Assembly. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 12 Assemblyman Epstein. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, 14 Chair. Thank you, panelists, for being here. 15 Just on -- since we were talking about 16 NYCHA, just to stay on that topic for a 17 second. So are you all supporting not just 18 capital money but operating money for NYCHA 19 from the state coffers? I know, Rachel, you 20 just mentioned capital, right? 21 MS. FEE: So I -- I mean, I would 22 really like to see what the city is asking 23 for in terms of -- you know, I know that 24 NYCHA is suffering a shortfall, and we'd like 176 1 to see some funds out of ERAP or whatever 2 funding is available to make up their 3 operating deficit due to tenant loss of 4 income this year. 5 But, you know, I think it would be 6 good for -- before, you know, we put together 7 a position around operating funds to fully 8 understand what they're looking for and also 9 how that fits in with a long-term strategy to 10 finance capital repairs. It should really go 11 hand in hand. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you. 13 And then, Barika, can you mention 14 Good Cause as a tool in the tool belt? You 15 know, I just want to underscore how important 16 it is. I think we're talking about, what, 17 4 million households across the state that 18 this Good Cause would impact, is that right? 19 MS. WILLIAMS: I believe that's right. 20 And I know a group of -- a panel will come 21 later. But I also think it's important and 22 somebody highlighted earlier this is 23 something that has been in place since the 24 '70s just across the river in New Jersey, is 177 1 in place in multiple other states and 2 counties, and is an opportunity for us to 3 stabilize and also to really address a key 4 piece in what is a complicated and complex 5 housing tool belt. But this piece is clearly 6 needed in order to secure some necessary 7 housing protections across the state. 8 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Finally, I only 9 have a minute left, but there's two more 10 topics I want to raise and people can answer 11 them, just really on ADUs. You know, we saw 12 a good plan from the Governor. You know, we 13 have legislation in the Assembly and the 14 Senate driven by the leadership of Senator 15 Harckham. I'm wondering where -- I know I've 16 seen most of you plan to support ADU. I'm 17 wondering how you respond to some of the 18 criticism we've heard tonight. And if people 19 can be quick, because I do want to talk about 20 421-a too, if possible. 21 MS. FEE: I understand that localities 22 want to maintain local control of zoning. 23 But local control of zoning has also led to 24 our current crisis in exclusionary zoning 178 1 across the state. 2 So, you know, I do think input from 3 localities across the state is really 4 important in crafting legislation, and their 5 concerns are really important. But I do 6 think we are falling behind other states in 7 really unlocking housing opportunities by 8 using state authority. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: I know I'm out 10 of time so I can't really talk about 421-a, 11 but I just really want to reemphasize the 12 need for ending the -- not going forward with 13 the Preservation Trust as well. 14 Thank you all, and thank you, Chairs. 15 I'm sorry I couldn't get all the responses 16 from everyone here. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate. 18 Oh, you do not have anyone, right? So 19 I think we will go to Assemblyman Burdick. 20 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you, 21 Chairs. And thank you, panelists, for your 22 advocacy and your testimony. 23 Barika Williams, I want to thank you 24 for pressing for passage of the Housing 179 1 Access Voucher Program, the codification of 2 the five-year capital plans, and other of 3 those proposals in there. 4 Erin Burns-Maine, we've worked 5 together before, and I want to commend you 6 for the work you do. 7 I'm wondering whether you have any 8 programs for housing for returning citizens 9 from our correctional facilities, and how can 10 we partner with HCR on that, given that the 11 commissioner has stated that permanent 12 housing is really their mission, rather than 13 transitional? However she did say, in 14 response to my questions, that she would and 15 was willing to circle back with me on that. 16 And perhaps CPC and others can be involved. 17 MS. BURNS-MAINE: So I'd be happy to 18 start. So thank you so much for that 19 question. 20 We agree that housing is kind of the 21 platform, the jumping-off place for 22 everything else, especially for folks 23 returning home from incarceration settings. 24 While we would need to look specifically at 180 1 the program of what we have financed in our 2 portfolio, which we would be happy to do, we 3 stand at the ready to partner with the state, 4 with others, on any sort of program that 5 would help create housing opportunities for 6 folks who need to get back on their feet. 7 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: That's super. 8 Thank you. Perhaps offline we can have 9 further conversation. 10 A question for Rachel Fee. What did 11 you have in mind when you stated that the 12 state use of state-owned land should be 13 considered to create housing opportunities? 14 Do you have any specific agencies or 15 properties? And how might we pursue that? 16 MS. FEE: So I think it would be great 17 if we had a survey of state-owned land, you 18 know, and maybe a review process where the 19 state housing agency has some sort of role in 20 identifying state-owned land that is suitable 21 for housing, before any disposition happens. 22 And also an evaluation of those 23 opportunities across the state. I think we 24 saw with the Brooklyn initiative under the 181 1 last Housing Plan a really great use of 2 underutilized state-owned land on a hospital 3 site, and I think there are more 4 opportunities like that across the state. 5 And it would reduce costs for producing 6 affordable housing if we can use public land. 7 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: This too I'd be 8 delighted to pursue this offline with you and 9 to see whether there's something that can be 10 developed with HCR. 11 MS. FEE: Great. Thank you. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you. 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 15 So this -- we thank all the panelists 16 for being with us today, and thank you for 17 your input and the work you do in the 18 communities. 19 So next we're going to have Panel B: 20 Neighbors Together, Fannie Lou Diane, leader; 21 Red Hook West Tenant Association, Karen 22 Blondel, president; VOCAL-NY, Kassi Keith, 23 VOCAL-NY homeless union leader; 24 CASA-Community Action for Safe Apartments, 182 1 Pablo Estupiņan, director. 2 You can go in that order. 3 MS. DIANE: Good evening. My name is 4 Fannie Lou Diane, and I'm a member leader 5 here at Neighbors Together in Brooklyn, and 6 also a member of Housing Justice for All. 7 I want to thank the Legislature for the 8 opportunity to testify today. 9 I am testifying today to highlight the 10 dire need for the New York State Assembly to 11 address the housing and homelessness crisis 12 by passing critical legislation that will 13 move us out of the cycle of short-term 14 responses and into long-term investments and 15 safe, stable affordable housing for all 16 New Yorkers. 17 It is interesting that many of the 18 members who have spoken today have 19 intersected my organization, have intersected 20 at some point. But I would be remiss if I 21 didn't mention the human aspect, which is why 22 I'm here today. 23 I myself understand all too well the 24 struggle that many low-income and homeless 183 1 New Yorkers are facing. In 2019, I was 2 illegally evicted by my landlord who refused 3 to remediate toxic black mold, several mice 4 infestations, and three bedbug infestations. 5 The constant exposure to toxins and rodents 6 made me severely ill, and after fighting and 7 beating cancer, my health remains severely 8 impacted to this day. 9 There is a human element to these 10 policies. People's lives hang in the 11 balance. As you look at the real checks and 12 balances, I urge you not to just think about 13 the budget cost but the human cost. How will 14 the policies that you vote on today impact 15 the lives of people that you are called to 16 serve? Will we end up as collateral damage 17 in a flawed system? 18 The eviction moratorium ended on 19 January 15 of this month, and now over 20 200,000 households face eviction. The 21 state's failure to act represents a total 22 abdication of responsibility to protect 23 tenants and address the homelessness crisis. 24 It is unacceptable, and COVID showed us how 184 1 many households were on the brink of 2 homelessness. 3 And even with ERAP funding, many 4 households will still be remaining in debt. 5 So without better policies in place, severely 6 rent-burdened households will continue to 7 struggle and can easily end up cycling in and 8 out of homelessness. 9 In this year's budget the state must 10 move from emergency responses to COVID to 11 investing in permanent, forward-looking 12 protection for low-income households and 13 homeless New Yorkers -- such as Good Cause 14 Eviction and the Housing Access Voucher 15 program. 16 If Good Cause Eviction were law when I 17 was living in my old apartment, I would be 18 able to fight against the dangerous living 19 conditions in my building and have them 20 remediated instead of being illegally evicted 21 and homeless for the past two and a half 22 years. I would have probably been on my path 23 to pursue a Ph.D., I would have probably been 24 on my path on my career, but here we are now. 185 1 I'm struggling to find a place to live and 2 spend all my energy fighting to keep my head 3 above water. 4 In order to rehouse people who are 5 already homeless, and to address the problem 6 from the other end, the state must pass the 7 Housing Access Voucher Program. If the 8 Housing Access Voucher Program were law when 9 I was illegally evicted, I would have been 10 given a voucher and I would have been able to 11 find an apartment with fair market rent. 12 In order to address current housing 13 disparities and create an equitable and just 14 housing system statewide, any budget put 15 forward in New York State must include the 16 Good Cause Eviction, the Housing Access 17 Voucher program, and additional money for the 18 Housing Our Neighbors with Dignity Act, 19 HONDA. That has to be statewide. 20 We are asking, for each program, for 21 at least a billion dollars in funding to make 22 sure that this runs smoothly and adequately 23 for all New Yorkers. Governor Hochul's 24 budget unfortunately rebrands an already 186 1 broken system. I and millions of other 2 low-income New Yorkers need New York State to 3 finally start investing in long-term 4 solutions that provide equitable and just 5 housing for all. 6 Housing should be a human right. 7 Good, clean, safe, and affordable housing 8 should just be the standard, and not the 9 option. 10 Thank you again. My name is Fannie 11 Lou Diane. And I've got more of these things 12 I've talked about referenced in my testimony 13 that was submitted. Thank you. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for 15 being with us today. 16 Next, Karen Blondel, Red Hook West 17 Tenant Association. 18 MS. BLONDEL: Good evening, New York 19 State Senate and Assembly members. Greetings 20 to the chairs, Chair Cymbrowitz, my 21 Assemblymember, Marcela Mitaynes, and my 22 State Senator, Jabari Brisport. I also want 23 to thank Rachel Fee and others for supporting 24 public housing. 187 1 I am the only public housing resident 2 making a statement on this call. I live in 3 Red Hook Housing, but I'm also a Harvard LOEB 4 Fellow with the GSD. So I am doing this from 5 Massachusetts at this time. 6 I want to acknowledge that I speak for 7 myself as a resident but also for many other 8 residents, as well as the authentic community 9 organizers and organizations who are our 10 allies in Red Hook and beyond. As the newly 11 elected president of Red Hook West Resident 12 Association and the cofounder of the Public 13 Housing Civic Association, I'm here to speak 14 about the ERAP, the Emergency Rental 15 Assistance Program, that was not shared 16 equitably with NYCHA residents. 17 The federal government approved this 18 national pandemic relief fund and tasked 19 New York State with equitably disbursing it 20 to all in need. I even recall our current 21 Governor of New York State, Governor Hochul, 22 promising to fix nearly two decades of 23 ongoing crisis in New York City public 24 housing while being interviewed by the 188 1 Gothamist on August 27, 2021. 2 How could the legislation regarding 3 who gets ERAP leave residents from NYCHA 4 completely out? The way the resources and 5 information was trickled down in fragments to 6 my community is unacceptable. That's why we 7 have Resident Council, CCOP, and other 8 organizations. 9 And with that being said, the 10 additional cost on public housing residents 11 has been residual cost-burdened -- not just 12 the rate, but the things that you have to 13 also pay for like transportation. We had to 14 pivot to buying things online, service fees 15 for deliveries, all kinds of things like 16 that. 17 I'm keenly aware, as the only public 18 housing resident and newly elected president 19 of Red Hook West, that speaking today does 20 not cover all of the issues that me and some 21 of my allies have. And for that, I 22 apologize, because I would love to talk about 23 capital and operational costs and who this 24 DASNY organization is that I'm just hearing 189 1 about. 2 The difference between low-income 3 housing and affordable housing in New York 4 City is the dense concentration we have of 5 low-income public housing in New York City. 6 It may be different upstate, but in New York 7 we have over 600,000 people living in public 8 housing. 9 The actual cost burden has not been 10 just about rent, but about residual cost 11 burdens of living through a global pandemic. 12 And for New York State to make decisions that 13 leave the most vulnerable population out of 14 emergency rental resources, information, and 15 amenities in a time of crisis is shameful. 16 It's shameful. It is unacceptable for 17 New York State to once again leave NYCHA out 18 of a critical resource. 19 And I heard the commissioner, who is 20 not on here anymore -- because I have been on 21 this call since 2:00, before it even 22 started -- but I heard her try to give hope 23 about the Build It Back {sic} program, about 24 the infrastructure bill. We've been going 190 1 through this since the Compromise of 1877. 2 Enough is enough. We need NYCHA 3 funding, and at a minimum we need to make 4 sure that the State Senate and our Assembly 5 use zeal, zeal in trying to make sure that 6 public housing residents are not evicted 7 after this moratorium stops. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 9 MS. BLONDEL: I will close by saying 10 it is because of state legislation that 11 public housing residents are being excluded 12 from ERAP. We demand our state government to 13 be accountable and creative in regards to 14 making sure all residents of public housing 15 are served in any investments or prioritizing 16 in the state budget in public housing to fill 17 the ERAP gap and address operational and 18 capital needs. 19 The rest of this I have submitted -- 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thanks. Right. 21 I was about to say, Ms. Blondel, that all the 22 testimony -- both your testimony as well as 23 there have been a number of people who have 24 submitted testimony who did not wish -- 191 1 MS. BLONDEL: But I shouldn't be 2 rushed when I'm the only public housing 3 resident. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: You're not 5 being rushed. Everybody has the same amount 6 of time. And a lot of us, myself included, 7 represent -- 8 MS. BLONDEL: Why, when I'm the only 9 representative from my community on this 10 call -- 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- public 12 housing developments, and we work closely 13 with our residents associations. 14 So next we go to VOCAL-NY. 15 MS. KEITH: Thank you. My name is 16 Kassi Keith. I'm the leader with VOCAL-NY. 17 Thank you for taking my testimony today. 18 I have been living in the DHS shelter 19 system since February of 2019. I have been 20 placed in the Kings Hotel since September of 21 2021. In those 35 months the city and state 22 of New York have paid nearly $140,000 to keep 23 me in a shelter that offers no service, no 24 real service. 192 1 As of right now, there is no program 2 in place that can help me get out of the 3 shelter system because, despite being a 4 resident of this city for over 36 years and 5 having over 30 years of work experience, I'm 6 still not able to become a citizen of this 7 country. 8 It is baffling to me that shelters 9 cost almost $4,000 a month, even though basic 10 services are not being provided to clients. 11 We have been served frozen dinners and canned 12 food every day. We end up getting sicker 13 because of the food. Myself and others are 14 constantly going to the emergency room due to 15 chest pains, elevated blood pressure, low or 16 high blood sugar, because the food is not 17 healthy and we cannot cook healthy meals for 18 ourselves. 19 My current hotel room gets flooded 20 every time we have a heavy rain -- four times 21 since I have moved in. They won't fix the 22 window, which allows the rain to come into my 23 room. They won't change the carpet or 24 deep-clean either. Therefore I'm forced to 193 1 live in a room filled with mold. 2 When donations come in, residents are 3 the last to see them. Staff take whatever 4 they want and leave us the rest. 5 I joined VOCAL-NY to fight for the 6 Housing Access Voucher Program, which would 7 be the only rental subsidy program available 8 to folks in my situation. If funded at 9 $1 billion, it would allow everyone in the 10 shelter system to access a market-rate 11 voucher and ultimately save the state money 12 as people left the shelter. 13 With the Housing Voucher Program, I 14 could get an apartment of my own where I 15 could cook my own food, come and go as I 16 please, and have guests whenever I wanted to. 17 This means I could focus on getting my mental 18 and physical health in order and get back to 19 work. 20 Not only would the state save money on 21 the monthly cost of shelter, but I could also 22 participate fully in my community without 23 being forced to transfer from one shelter or 24 hotel to another. I could put down real 194 1 roots and contribute to the economy and civic 2 life of this state in even greater ways, all 3 for less than the cost of keeping me in 4 temporary shelters. 5 If the state cannot get the Housing 6 Access Voucher Program passed this year, it 7 will force me to spend another year in a 8 costly shelter that provides food that is 9 harmful to my health and offers me no way 10 out. I can't get into permanent shelter, 11 into permanent housing. Shelter residents 12 have suffered greatly over this pandemic, and 13 we are out of patience. We must prioritize 14 passing and funding HAVP. We must prioritize 15 and dignify -- the dignity and the safety of 16 people like me. 17 It's inhumane to keep people in the 18 shelter system indefinitely with no way out. 19 Passing the housing budget program is a moral 20 issue. Lawmakers have the power to give us 21 back our dignity, our lives, and restore our 22 American dream to contribute to the growth of 23 this unique and great country. 24 Thank you. 195 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you, 2 Ms. Keith. 3 So now we go to CASA. 4 MR. ESTUPIŅAN: Good evening, 5 Assemblymembers and Senators, as well as the 6 chairs. Thank you for the opportunity to 7 testify tonight. 8 My name is Pablo Estupiņan. I'm the 9 director of CASA in the Southwest Bronx. 10 We're a grassroots, member-led tenant 11 organization representing over 2,000 members. 12 Our work is really organizing buildings, and 13 we also work with local, city, and state 14 campaigns, with members of the Right to 15 Counsel NYC Coalition as well as Housing 16 Justice for All. 17 So while we're here in support of and 18 in solidarity with what folks have mentioned 19 around the Housing Access Voucher Program and 20 Good Cause, there's two things I wanted to 21 testify in favor of today. 22 The first is the passing of statewide 23 Right to Counsel legislation. Thank you to 24 all our sponsors who are here tonight. We 196 1 already know that in New York City that Right 2 to Counsel has been a game changer. In the 3 last three years, over 80 percent of tenants 4 represented don't get evicted, which proves 5 our point around evictions aren't always 6 about money -- they're about power. 7 At CASA we do believe that no one 8 should ever be evicted. So some of you will 9 see us launch an Eviction-Free Bronx campaign 10 tomorrow morning, along with an Eviction 11 Defense Network. We knew the day would come 12 where there would be no moratorium and that 13 we needed to support our neighbors to stop 14 evictions and, as it's been well documented, 15 the cycle of displacement and what happens 16 when people are evicted. 17 I know this is a budget hearing, so 18 what I wanted to testify in favor of is that 19 we are, at Right to Counsel, working on a 20 cost-estimate analysis. It should be out 21 soon, in a couple of weeks in the coming 22 months, and so our initial research shows 23 that it would cost at least 500 million to 24 implement Right to Counsel in the state. So 197 1 that's already including New York City, which 2 is almost 200 million a year already, and 3 that's already funded through HRA. So it 4 would be an additional support for upstate 5 tenants. 6 And while we applaud -- we acknowledge 7 the increased $35 million in funding for 8 legal service providers -- but we know that 9 that doesn't go far enough. And we estimate 10 that 45,000 to 50,000 people would be served 11 annually through Right to Counsel. 12 The second thing I wanted to really 13 make sure I testify about is ERAP. We need 14 additional funding, so we are advocating for 15 2 billion. So a lot of our CASA members -- 16 we are in the poorest urban congressional 17 district. If our members can't afford to 18 live where we organize, there's nowhere for 19 them to go in the city, right? 20 And so I wanted to share with you all, 21 we did outreach to over 75 buildings over the 22 summer. We have helped hundreds of people 23 apply. And still the reality of our members 24 is we're not in a different place from what 198 1 we started in. Even those that got help 2 didn't get the full amount. Those that did 3 get some amount, that got it covered, are now 4 in months of arrears. And there are many 5 people who didn't know about it, which is why 6 we spent our resources to go out there and 7 and get the word out. 8 So I just wanted to highlight those 9 two really in particular, that as y'all might 10 know, one in four eviction cases filed in the 11 pandemic are in the Bronx. So we really hope 12 that folks in power really think about the 13 Bronx. We're often ignored and not talked 14 about, or ever get the resources we need. 15 Thank you. And that concludes my 16 testimony. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for 18 being with us tonight. 19 We will go first to Assemblyman 20 Epstein and then to the Senate. 21 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, 22 Chair. 23 And I really want to thank the 24 panelists, Fannie Lou Diane, Karen Blondel, 199 1 and Kassi Keith. Thank you for all your 2 really -- your stories that are really 3 impactful. I'm glad we're here to listen to 4 them and to stand with you, because we have a 5 housing crisis that we need to manage. So 6 thank you. 7 I just want -- a couple things. One 8 is just there's a couple of pieces we're 9 trying to push forward here, as you know: 10 Not extending the 421-a program, because it's 11 giving away billions of dollars; getting 12 accessory dwelling unit legislation to allow 13 more affordable housing; really talking about 14 HONDA and turning -- converting old hotels 15 into real housing, to the additional 16 protections for unstabilized tenants and 17 Good Cause. The last one is really having a 18 real commitment to funding public housing. 19 I wanted to make sure that we're all 20 on the same page. These are priorities for 21 all your organizations and things that you're 22 talking about. Oh also, I forgot Chair 23 Kavanagh-Cymbrowitz's bill, about a real 24 rental assistance program in our state. 200 1 I want to know if people who are 2 feeling -- if this is what this panel is 3 really pushing for. I want to know if 4 there's anything we're missing. 5 MS. BLONDEL: I'm pushing for funding 6 for public housing. I've been tracking the 7 infrastructure bill, the Build It Back bill. 8 I worked with my congresswoman and 9 (inaudible) from Red Hook, when it went from 10 one bill to the other. 11 I am a Black woman living in public 12 housing, and I'm also in Harvard, and I'm 13 here to really figure out why do we keep 14 being treated like second-class citizens 15 here? Especially because New York City is a 16 sanctuary city, I would think that at least 17 they would think about the bare minimum of 18 stabilizing public housing. 19 And I just want to say for the record, 20 I know the difference between the blueprint 21 and privatization. I actually teach it. And 22 I'm in favor of the blueprint. Since 23 everybody else came with their comment, as a 24 public housing resident, I am in favor of the 201 1 blueprint. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And thank you. 3 And so would you be in favor of the blueprint 4 versus federal and state funding? Would 5 you -- I just -- there's concern around, you 6 know, moving away from Section 9 to 7 Section 8, and the protections that Section 9 8 provides. 9 MS. BLONDEL: Right. So with the 10 blueprint, we stay Section 9? I would be 11 okay -- yeah. The blueprint keeps things 12 Section 9. Privatization turns things into 13 Section 8. 14 I even have students who have done 15 eviction maps that show that the increase in 16 evictions in public housing is in the RAD 17 conversions. Okay? 18 Now, I want to say just one more thing 19 about Red Hook. We received half a billion 20 dollars in Sandy recovery on the outside. We 21 are like a Hudson Yard with all kinds of 22 things going on right outside my front door 23 throughout the whole campus, including the 24 cutting down of 500 trees. We can't go from 202 1 that to privatization that will next wrap the 2 building and the actual tenant up in the 3 building to get the job done. 4 With the blueprint we are guaranteed, 5 going line by line, where we have a lot of 6 residents who are over 65, and they would be 7 still housed on that campus. It just makes 8 better sense that we can control whether or 9 not the work is being done properly. 10 And we also need to maintain a bigger 11 workforce. Meaning the City Council just 12 testified less than six months ago that 13 New York City Housing Authority is only 14 spending 6 percent of its budget, while the 15 average other agencies in New York City spend 16 60 percent. That calls for an increase -- 17 all hands on deck, almost like a World War II 18 movement where we get everybody up and 19 working. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 21 MS. DIANE: And just to echo what 22 Sister Karen said, she mentioned about RAD 23 and how evictions are happening. We have to 24 think about also those folks who are already 203 1 homeless, who were already dealing with this 2 way before COVID. 3 And so we're not talking -- we need to 4 be talking solutions since yesterday, okay? 5 Because it's an important -- I mean, since 6 the state failed to enact more protection for 7 folks for the eviction moratorium, we now 8 leave open at least a space for 1.6 million 9 people to be evicted. That's horrible. 10 You know, so I totally agree with what 11 Sister Karen said, I totally agree with what 12 Brother Pablo said. You know, we are 13 reacting and trying to respond to a need that 14 should have been addressed a long time ago, 15 years ago, that is really deeply racist, 16 systematically gendered as well, and all 17 these other different issues that we all know 18 about. We could sit here and talk about this 19 stuff for hours. We all know what we need to 20 do. 21 We need to have right to counsel, 22 which I didn't have when I was being evicted, 23 which would have definitely helped me. Good 24 Cause Eviction, it's going to be a good thing 204 1 for everyone, even including folks in 2 NYCHA -- as someone who grew up in NYCHA. 3 So, you know -- and banning winter evictions. 4 People are being evicted now. It's 5 egregious. It is traumatic. I can't express 6 how horrible an eviction is and how long it 7 takes to recuperate. Mine was in 2019. I'm 8 still dealing with the ramifications of that. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for 10 your responses. 11 We now move on to the Senate. I 12 believe Senator Kavanagh was first. 13 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. Thanks. I 14 will be quick. 15 Just to say, first of all, thank you 16 to this panel. I'm really glad that you're 17 prioritizing these things. We have been 18 pushing hard for several of them for several 19 years now. We originally introduced the 20 Housing Access Voucher bill in February of 21 2020, about three weeks before we ever heard 22 of COVID -- or at least I didn't think it was 23 something here -- and the Senate last year in 24 our one-house budget put $200 million into 205 1 getting that program started. So we are very 2 committed to it, and many of us -- and I'm 3 glad there's such active support. 4 I do want to acknowledge something 5 that Karen Blondel said, which is that there 6 are about half a million public housing 7 residents in the state. It is very difficult 8 to get all the perspectives and all the 9 representatives into these hearings, and I -- 10 you know, the chairs and the staff do work 11 hard at that, but I think it is an 12 unfortunate thing today that we have just one 13 public housing resident testifying in all of 14 these panels. 15 And we will, and certainly in my 16 district -- you know, Senator Krueger has had 17 a community-oriented town hall on the budget 18 that we all do in Manhattan every year, and I 19 think that we will make sure that we have 20 other opportunities for public housing 21 residents and others to express their point 22 of view. But it's -- you know, it is 23 something that -- and thank you for carrying 24 the perspective of half a million people 206 1 today, because that's not something anybody 2 should expect of you. 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Excuse me, 4 Senator. It's just -- I don't know if we 5 want to stop the clock, we'll just give him 6 some extra time. 7 I just wanted to point out that we did 8 not have other public housing residents or 9 officers of public housing request to testify 10 at this hearing, so we're actually very 11 grateful that Ms. Blondel is here with us 12 today. We wanted to make sure she had an 13 opportunity to be here, and I would agree 14 with you that we will be having other 15 meetings, it's not just -- the budget is not 16 the only place where we get to interact with 17 housing advocates. 18 Can we add a couple minutes back to 19 Senator Kavanagh's time, please? You can go 20 on, and we'll -- 21 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you for that 22 clarification. And I was not suggesting that 23 there was any active effort to exclude. I 24 think there were some tenant leaders who kind 207 1 of found out -- maybe missed deadlines to 2 submit requests to testify and then found out 3 at the last minute. 4 But I know there are many people out 5 there that are watching and are concerned 6 that the perspective of public housing 7 residents are fully addressed in our budget 8 negotiations. 9 But again, as I said, I wasn't 10 suggesting that anybody -- in either house, 11 the Legislature or anybody on the staff, was 12 trying to prevent that perspective from being 13 presented here. So I think I actually 14 will -- I think I will actually stop there. 15 The clock is out, and I know it's late. But 16 thank you. 17 And just one to Pablo: No one forgets 18 the Bronx as long as CASA is in the house. So 19 we appreciate all of your advocacy and effort 20 to us as chairs and certainly to my Bronx 21 colleagues as well. Thank you. 22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We now go to 23 Assemblywoman Niou. 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Hello. Thank you 208 1 so much for being patient tonight. It's 2 already 7:00, but I just wanted to say thank 3 you for waiting and testifying. It's been a 4 long night. 5 President Blondel, have officials 6 running the ERAP program been able to give 7 you any estimates of when they will process 8 NYCHA applications? 9 MS. BLONDEL: So no, they haven't. I'm 10 also talking from a leadership and a person 11 who lives in public housing who, during the 12 pandemic, I had to pivot -- yes, I still had 13 work and worked through the pandemic. I 14 actually worked harder, because I gave out a 15 million pounds of produce -- not only in 16 Red Hook, but beyond, into Sunset, into 17 Gowanus, and at times even into the Bronx. 18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Thank you for 19 doing that. 20 MS. BLONDEL: But I also found out 21 about ERAP two days before the deadline for 22 my own -- personal. And at that point, 23 public housing still wasn't aware, in 24 numbers, of it. So I put my own application 209 1 in because I said I don't know how long this 2 pandemic is going to last, I don't know how 3 long I'm going to have a job, and I need to 4 safeguard myself. 5 I got a letter about a week ago -- 6 well, about a month ago, that said, hey, 7 we're running out of funds, so you might not 8 get this money. But it leaves public housing 9 in limbo. And at the same time while I'm 10 able to recover, my residents and other 11 people in public housing have already been 12 turned down by HRA because the ERAP doesn't 13 really say you're not going to get it. It's 14 almost like -- 15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Have you had any 16 success in getting in contact with them, or 17 have they been unresponsive? 18 MS. BLONDEL: I would have to get back 19 to you on that when I speak to our residents 20 this week. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Okay. And right 22 now, I've heard from a lot of my own 23 residents and my own -- residents in NYCHA 24 and, you know, right now a lot of folks are 210 1 very worried about evictions when it comes to 2 folks in NYCHA. And do you think that a 3 large number of folks would end up homeless 4 if they're not able to get into this program? 5 MS. BLONDEL: I sure hope not. First 6 of all, let's not forget that 6 million 7 people migrated to New York City, and that 8 was before urban renewal. A lot of those 9 families, including myself, have been 10 veal-penned in public housing for 30, 11 40 years. It's not that we don't want to go 12 anyplace else, but we've been veal-penned 13 there. 14 And let me explain to you. I'm quite 15 happy to stay in that little place, 16 especially because I'm going to be a senior 17 soon, but not if it can't be stabilized. It 18 needs to be stabilized. 19 I see the same pipes from 1939, rises, 20 chase walls, all kind of plumbing and 21 electrical wires. I paid a 30-year mortgage 22 in my apartment in regards to my rent, yet I 23 have no equity, and nobody took care of the 24 building. That's not right. I should be 211 1 able to age in place in Red Hook, even if 2 it's in public housing. So something has to 3 be done. 4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Thank you. 5 MS. BLONDEL: You're welcome. Thank 6 you. 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, we have 8 Senator Brisport. Is that all right, Helene? 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes. Sure. 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 11 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you, 12 Madam Chair. 13 Ms. Blondel, I really loved your 14 testimony, and it is truly an honor and a 15 pleasure to represent you in the State 16 Senate. So I have a simple question for you, 17 and also Ms. Fannie Lou, because I think I 18 heard you say you grew up in public housing. 19 So I'm going to run some numbers real 20 quick and then ask you just simple questions. 21 So my office got a response from OTDA a few 22 days ago saying that they had -- as of 23 November 14th, when the portal was closed, 24 they had received about 27,000 applications 212 1 from NYCHA, with estimated payments totalling 2 about $102 million. 3 And I want to remind everyone 4 watching, listening, that in the original 5 ERAP program when we first made it, the State 6 Legislature allocated around $100 million for 7 private landlords who might be excluded from 8 the program. And when we extended it, we 9 added an additional $150 million, for a total 10 of $250 million for private landlords. 11 So my question for Ms. Karen and 12 Ms. Fannie Lou: How does it make you feel 13 knowing that we were able to find money at 14 first, and then again, for private landlords 15 to the tune of $250 million and are still not 16 allocating anything for NYCHA, which is 17 pushed to the end of line, and now the 18 program is out of money? Do you think that's 19 fair? 20 MS. BLONDEL: That is absolutely not 21 fair. Even when you had quoted that number 22 versus how much money was given out, 23 102 million to stabilize 27,000 units or 24 families in public housing -- when we know we 213 1 have over 600,000 to a million people living 2 in public housing -- it's a small drop in the 3 bucket. 4 I'm sure, because it's agency to 5 agency, you guys can negotiate some type of 6 payment in lieu of taxes that covers the rent 7 of those 27,000 people. You know, that's 8 number one. 9 How does it makes me feel? It makes 10 me feel like I'm being treated like a 11 second-class or third-class citizen in my own 12 country, in the country that I love. In a 13 country -- in a city, one of the very few 14 cities that I would feel comfortable 15 migrating to in 2022 as a Black American 16 woman. Do you understand that? 17 So this is where my fight comes from. 18 From living in Red Hook, from holding that 19 small space -- I don't care if we only have 20 500 square feet of space, but we want to 21 maintain that area because of all of the 22 things that are going on, from global 23 pandemics to all kinds of antiquated rules 24 around zoning. Like we have to have a safe 214 1 place for our people, too. 2 So I will stop right there. Thank 3 you. 4 MS. DIANE: I will get back on what 5 Karen said. It makes me really angry, but it 6 also makes me angry that there are 200,000 7 people who are experiencing homelessness 8 right now. The fact that 90,000 single 9 people are experiencing homelessness right 10 now, right, and we're not even talking about 11 that. 12 Yes, NYCHA needs to be funded. They 13 need to fund NYCHA. But we also need to fund 14 those people who are currently living in 15 shelters right now or are too afraid to go to 16 shelters because the shelter system is 17 horrible. We haven't even talked about that. 18 And the fact that why can't people 19 move into their homes in a timely manner? 20 Like for myself, I've been waiting for 21 months -- thank you to Assemblywoman 22 Rosenthal for helping. But I'm still waiting 23 to get into an apartment that I was accepted 24 into since last November, which makes no 215 1 sense. 2 So this is an issue -- you know, we 3 need to fund NYCHA, we need to fund programs 4 to help those who are homeless -- houseless, 5 I'd rather called them houseless -- and not 6 look at it as a handout but a hand up. That's 7 what we need. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 9 Senator Krueger? 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No, I think we're 11 done in the Senate, thank you. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So I want to 13 thank this panel for being here and sharing 14 your experiences with us and staying with us. 15 We still have a number of people. Feel free 16 to continue to send comments and further 17 remarks on issues that may have come up 18 during some of this discussion that you would 19 like us to consider. 20 Now we're going to move on to Panel C: 21 Center for New York City Neighborhoods, 22 Christie Peale, CEO/executive director; the 23 Legal Aid Society of Mid-New York, Jay 24 Flemma; CAMBA Legal Services, Jeremy 216 1 Bunyaner, staff attorney; Right to Counsel 2 Coalition, Malika Conner, director of 3 organizing. 4 They can go in that order, starting 5 with Center for New York City Neighborhoods. 6 MS. PEALE: Good evening. My name is 7 Christie Peale, and I would like to thank 8 Chair Krueger, Chair Weinstein, and the 9 members and committee staff for holding 10 today's hearing on the fiscal year '23 11 Executive Budget proposals regarding housing. 12 And I just want to start by 13 acknowledging that the Governor's proposed 14 budget really does commit a historic -- 15 (Noises in background.) 16 MS. PEALE: I'm sorry for the honking. 17 -- amount of state funding to support 18 home ownership opportunities for low- and 19 moderate-income families statewide. 20 The center's mission is to promote and 21 protect affordable home ownership in New York 22 so that all families are able to live in 23 strong and thriving communities. We meet the 24 diverse needs of homeowners across the state 217 1 by offering free, high-quality housing 2 services and direct financial assistance to 3 families in need. 4 As I mentioned, this budget proposal 5 is notable in its increased and dedicated 6 support for home ownership. I'm really 7 excited that there are initiatives in here 8 that are going to help families stay in their 9 homes, and also there are opportunities to 10 create new home ownership units across the 11 state. We need both, and in particular to 12 address the racial home ownership and the 13 racial wealth gap that exists in New York and 14 across the country between Black and Latinx 15 New Yorkers and the state's white residents. 16 Obviously this results from decades 17 of, you know, racist and discriminatory 18 practices in home lending, zoning, urban 19 renewal, as mentioned by Ms. Blondel, home 20 selling -- and we really need to both help 21 folks keep their homes and also make sure 22 they're actively creating more units. We're 23 not just helping people compete for those 24 units, but we need a much greater supply of 218 1 home ownership opportunities that are 2 specifically targeted at low- and 3 moderate-income families. 4 So I'm real excited to explore how the 5 400 million in capital can do that. There 6 is -- as we've heard tonight, the demand for 7 affordable homes exists in every city and 8 town nnd municipality across the state. So 9 we need both tailored solutions that meet the 10 individual needs of each community and 11 scalable solutions that allow us to really 12 achieve solutions at scale. 13 So in addition to supporting the 14 capital request in the budget, we think -- 15 oh, my gosh, I'm almost out of time -- AHC 16 money should be in there. I really also need 17 to talk about the Homeowner Protection 18 Program. We are hoping that the Senate and 19 the Assembly will accept the Governor's 20 20 million allocation as well as increase it 21 to 35 million for this year. 22 With the foreclosure moratorium 23 expiring, we expect to see a huge number of 24 families at risk of foreclosure this year and 219 1 next. So we're also planning a $40 million 2 ask for next year. So there's just a huge 3 demand for that. 4 And then the other issue I wanted to 5 mention was the state's 50 million CLT 6 allocation, which we're a strong supporter 7 of, and the Tenant Opportunity to Purchase 8 Act, Senate 3157. We're hoping that some of 9 the funding in the 400 million capital pot 10 would be available for this pilot. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 12 Legal Aid Society? 13 MR. FLEMMA: Good evening, everyone. 14 I'm Jay Flemma. I'm the senior foreclosure 15 defense attorney for Legal Aid Society in 16 Mid-New York. I cover 13 of our 15 counties. 17 This is actually my third time getting 18 to give testimony to all you good folks. In 19 2017, I rang the original alarm for the need 20 for the money for funding foreclosure 21 attorneys, and you responded admirably. 22 Thank you. 23 Last year, I not only asked for the 24 contribution again, but I also brought you up 220 1 to speed on what I was seeing on the ground 2 and in particular how the pandemic both 3 accelerated and aggravated the factors for a 4 crisis and a potential collapse of the real 5 estate system. Senator Kavanagh was kind 6 enough to call attention to my testimony and 7 to ask others to look more deeply into it. 8 I'm now reporting back to you on what 9 I have seen over the course of the last year. 10 I will stand on my written testimony with 11 regards to the financial ask. But I would 12 like you all to know that despite the 13 moratorium and the pause in cases handled in 14 court, my caseload did not change. I had as 15 many cases come in as I closed. 16 On top of that, from September of last 17 year until today, my caseload has doubled, 18 and we are only two weeks into the end of 19 moratorium. 20 The causes I see for this are the 21 confusion with regards to homeowners on what 22 rules apply to them and what waterfalls apply 23 for them when they're going to be able to try 24 to modify their loans coming out of COVID. 221 1 Tax forclosures also -- while they stopped 2 them, there were still many questions, there 3 were a lot of issues to ascertain. 4 But there are three other forces that 5 are gravely pressuring the system. One is 6 scammers. Every day I do battle with We Buy 7 Ugly Houses, and in particular people who 8 abuse it by using predatory tactics on 9 vulnerable people like the sick, the elderly, 10 and those in financial crisis. 11 I have to deal with rogue foreclosure 12 mills, first deliberately overcharging costs 13 that they know they can't defend, while at 14 the same time bringing a cottage industry of 15 cases that bring back formerly dead cases 16 that were dismissed by statutes of 17 limitations. 18 You'll be receiving some bills on that 19 that would be very important to pass, and in 20 particular, I want to thank the Empire 21 Justice Center and Attorney Jay Inwald. They 22 are polestars by which I set my sails. I 23 encourage you also to be very careful in 24 analyzing what they have to say, because it's 222 1 important. 2 Finally, Senator (sic) Lawler had 3 brought up the important point that private 4 ownership of residential property is the 5 lifeblood of the American dream. Be aware 6 that the globalist forces are trying to take 7 that away from us. Pay very careful 8 attention to what's coming out of Davos and 9 the World Economic Forum. They want to see a 10 massive transfer of residential personal 11 property in America to corporations and the 12 government. 13 Thank you for your time. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 15 Now for CAMBA. 16 MR. BUNYANER: Thank you, Chairs. 17 My name is Jeremy Bunyaner. I'm a 18 staff attorney at CAMBA Legal Services. At 19 CAMBA we serve tenants in Brooklyn and 20 Staten Island who are behind on their rent or 21 otherwise facing eviction. 22 As a member of the Right to Counsel 23 Coalition, we are here to testify to the fact 24 that Right to Counsel -- RTC -- works. Prior 223 1 to the adoption of the RTC program by 2 New York City in 2017, our housing unit met 3 with many more tenants then we had funding to 4 serve. And even after triaging and using our 5 limited financial resources efficiently, we 6 would regularly have to turn people away. 7 With Right to Counsel, our housing 8 unit has expanded dramatically. Our capacity 9 to serve our communities is much closer to 10 being commensurate with need. 11 Based on our experience with New York 12 City's RTC program, it is our view that the 13 proposed $35 million in increased funding for 14 legal services providers throughout upstate 15 New York does not go far enough to address 16 the housing and eviction crisis facing 17 tenants across New York State. Further, we 18 strongly recommend that the statewide Right 19 to Council bill, sponsored by Rachel May and 20 Latoya Joyner, be passed so that these 21 essential tenant rights are enshrined in law 22 rather than implemented piecemeal through the 23 graces of the Governor. 24 Our communities deserve more than just 224 1 funding, and that funding needs to be 2 adequate. The Legislature has passed many 3 laws over the years to help tenants, but 4 without a true right to counsel, tenants 5 often are not able to use those laws as they 6 were intended. Every tenant facing eviction 7 across New York State needs a lawyer -- and, 8 in many cases, the support of a community 9 organizer to fight their case. The current 10 proposal will not come close to doing that. 11 Something that is little understood is 12 that in nonpayment proceedings in New York, 13 the primary remedy a landlord seeks is not 14 evicting the tenant but rather being made 15 financially whole. Eviction defense 16 attorneys help ensure this happens when 17 possible. That means that landlords benefit 18 from Right to Counsel programs. An RTC 19 program ensures that the legal process moves 20 more smoothly to address the actual issues 21 and provide remedies that are fair to all. 22 This is part of why the seven cities 23 that now have a right to counsel have seen up 24 to a 77 percent reduction in evictions. 225 1 Everyone has benefited. Even tenants with 2 the most hopeless cases benefit from the 3 assistance of counsel. Last summer I met 4 with Ms. Walker. That's not her real name. 5 She was facing a no-grounds holdover action 6 seeking to evict her from an illegal unit. 7 Her legal rights are limited. Prior to 8 New York City's RTC program, we would have 9 never taken her case. But I'm really glad we 10 did. 11 What having the program meant to 12 Ms. Walker was having someone able to explain 13 the legal system to her, someone to help her 14 understand which issues mattered in terms of 15 her housing stability and which issues did 16 not, and, most importantly, having someone 17 knowledgeable who could negotiate with her 18 landlord's attorney so that we could come to 19 a settlement. 20 Having the program spared judicial 21 resources. It gave Ms. Walker some control 22 over her fate despite her terrible situation. 23 This is the least that people deserve. 24 Currently New York is failing to meet that 226 1 standard. Thirty-five million dollars is not 2 enough to meet the needs of New Yorkers 3 facing eviction. New York needs a Right to 4 Counsel statewide law and funding of at least 5 $500 million. 6 Thank you for the opportunity to 7 testify. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 9 And following now, the Right to 10 Counsel Coalition, Malika Conner, director of 11 organizing. 12 MS. CONNER: Yes, thank you, and good 13 evening. And thank you to the chairs for the 14 opportunity to testify today. 15 My name is Malika Conner. I'm the 16 director of organizing for the Right to 17 Counsel Coalition, which won the campaign to 18 establish a right to counsel for tenants 19 facing eviction in New York City. And we're 20 currently working in coalition to build a 21 statewide movement for the right to counsel 22 and transform the courts from the eviction 23 machine that they have come to be to a place 24 that holds landlords accountable, upholds 227 1 tenants' rights, and enables tenants to 2 remain in their homes. 3 We and members of the Our Housing 4 Courts Must Change campaign collectively 5 represent tens of thousands of tenants across 6 New York State. And we're honored to be 7 working on permanent and transformative 8 solutions to New York's eviction crisis. Our 9 statewide Right to Counsel legislation, as my 10 colleague Jeremy mentioned, that was 11 introduced by Senator Rachel May and 12 Assemblymember Latoya Joyner last year, would 13 really ensure that every tenant in New York 14 State has the right to a lawyer when facing 15 eviction. 16 It would cover every tenant across the 17 state regardless of income. It would cover 18 any legal proceeding that could result in a 19 tenant losing their home. It requires that 20 tenants be represented throughout their 21 entire case, not just when they show up in 22 court, so they would get quality legal 23 counsel, legal advice, and assistance. 24 And then it also requires the state to 228 1 work with nonprofit legal services 2 organizations to provide the right to counsel 3 and with community-based groups to provide 4 tenants' rights education and tenant 5 organizing. 6 While we are encouraged by Governor 7 Hochul's recognition of the success of 8 New York City's right to counsel law in the 9 2022 State of the State, and her proposed 10 Eviction Prevention Legal Assistance Program 11 to provide funding for free legal assistance 12 to upstate renters facing eviction with 13 incomes at or below 200 percent of the 14 federal poverty line, it does not go far 15 enough to protect tenants. 16 As Jeremy mentioned, it does not 17 establish the right to counsel that tenants 18 across the state need. Nor does it help 19 downstate tenants in New York City and the 20 surrounding areas of Long Island and 21 Westchester that need it. 22 And the $35 million included in the 23 Governor's Executive Budget simply doesn't 24 meet the needs of tenants throughout upstate 229 1 New York as well, or the rest of the state 2 that is still reeling from the economic and 3 public health crises caused by the pandemic, 4 let alone does it address the housing and 5 eviction crisis that has devastated New York 6 communities for decades. 7 So to be clear, right, every tenant 8 facing eviction across New York State needs a 9 lawyer and the support of a community 10 organizer to fight their case. And the 11 current proposal unfortunately does not come 12 close to doing that. 13 So what we really need is a true right 14 to counsel for tenants facing eviction. And 15 what that means is the right to a lawyer and 16 the amount of money to realistically pay for 17 it. Right? So we're proposing that it would 18 cost at least $500 million -- that's a 19 conservative estimate. We're working on more 20 official cost study. And, you know, it would 21 also not necessarily need to be put toward 22 the program right away, it could potentially 23 be phased in over a series of years. 24 I think it's also important to note, 230 1 too, that between 70,000 and 85,000 tenants 2 outside of New York City are expected to face 3 eviction each year. And we estimate that 4 between 45,000 and 50,000 will be served 5 annually through an eviction right to 6 counsel. So there is a tremendous 7 opportunity to support and help tenants and 8 fight evictions through a true right to 9 counsel that is funded appropriately. 10 I know I'm out of time, so thank you 11 for the opportunity to speak, and -- 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 13 We're going to go to questions. 14 Before we go to the Senate, I know that 15 the -- those in the legal service community 16 know that beyond a specific right to counsel 17 funding, that we do -- we do fund over -- 18 through the court system, over $100 million 19 from the Legislature to the court system for 20 legal services. Many of those organizations 21 serve -- do help with eviction services, as 22 well as through the IOLA program. There's 23 many legal service providers throughout the 24 state that provide eviction services. 231 1 So the number may even be -- what's 2 needed may even be lower than, you know, that 3 sort of big number that may scare some 4 people. So, you know, I appreciate your work 5 to try and get a true number that will also 6 take into account services that are already 7 being provided so we can see what we would 8 need to really expand and fully cover 9 everybody. 10 Because we all agree, who have been 11 fighting for civil legal service funding, 12 that a lawyer makes a difference when you're 13 in court. You get a much better result, and 14 you get to stay in your house and your home. 15 So now we will go to Senator Krueger 16 for the Senate. 17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very 18 much, Helene. 19 And thank you for raising that point. 20 I was also going to raise that point and also 21 highlight one of the things we learned from 22 New York City: Right to Counsel is -- 23 sometimes you actually don't have enough 24 counsel. And so you have to go out and make 232 1 sure that you actually do have counsel who 2 actually know about housing law. Because 3 being a terrific lawyer does not mean you are 4 terrific lawyer in every field of law, and 5 housing law is particularly quirky, if that's 6 the word to use, in New York. 7 But with that, I want to hand it to 8 Senator Jackson, who did have his hand up. 9 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you, 10 Madam Chair. 11 And good afternoon, Panel C members. 12 Thank you for staying in. Obviously, people 13 that are representing tenants and homeowners 14 in court will appreciate that. 15 I have a question put forward by one 16 of our colleagues, Cordelle Cleare, who was 17 just recently elected as a Senator to replace 18 Brian Benjamin, the Lieutenant Governor. And 19 she's not on the Housing Committee, so she 20 can't ask the question. But she wanted to 21 know, have you experienced during the 22 pandemic where tenants who were living with, 23 let's say, their parents and their parents 24 died, as a result of COVID or whatever, and 233 1 landlords are fighting them for succession 2 rights and they may not have all of the 3 appropriate documentation, things like that? 4 So have you experienced an increase in 5 trying to evict people that may be the sons 6 or relatives of someone that passed away 7 within the past two years? Somebody help me 8 out and answer. 9 MR. BUNYANER: Well, I have not 10 personally received any cases dealing with 11 that exact situation. That is something that 12 I have heard about, and it is something that 13 I think we are going to see more and more 14 because of the moratorium and the ways 15 specifically to work cases through the legal 16 system quicker. 17 Some cases that might plainly be a 18 succession matter, really, where instead it's 19 framed as nuisance holdovers or such other 20 cases -- and I think in the months to come we 21 are going to see a lot more of just more 22 cases being brought of, you know, that are a 23 little more truthful than what's actually the 24 facts at hand. 234 1 SENATOR JACKSON: Anybody else can 2 respond to that? If you don't mind. If you 3 can. 4 MR. FLEMMA: In the foreclosure 5 setting, Senator, I do see a lot of pushback 6 from servicers where there is a question of 7 Surrogate's Court involvement or 8 administrators for executors. It gets very 9 complicated, and there is lot more hoops to 10 jump through. 11 And I am just as concerned also with 12 the trend that I am seeing of foreclosure 13 mills resurrecting long-dead, dismissed, 14 statute of limitations cases frivolously. It 15 is a cottage industry, and it is a serious 16 pandemic right now. They are trying to 17 confuse judges, and they are trying to steal 18 back houses they lost long ago and oppose 19 these homeowners three, four, five years 20 along, suddenly. They thought they were 21 done, they thought it was over, they thought 22 they had a house free and clear, and now they 23 have got to fend off this litigation. 24 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay. But for 235 1 renters in New York City, if you had two 2 years you lived with your parents and you 3 have the documentation, your driver's license 4 and everything like that, and your name, and 5 you can prove that you lived here -- 6 neighbors know that you lived there, so forth 7 and so on, that would seem like a 8 cut-and-dried case. Why would they even try 9 to do that? But you're right, they will try 10 everything they can to knock you out of the 11 box. 12 So I want to thank you. My time is 13 up, and this is long hearing. I appreciate 14 you being here, let me say that. Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 We will go to Assemblyman Epstein. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, 18 Chair. And I want to thank the panelists. 19 As a former civil legal services 20 lawyer who practiced housing law for way 21 longer than I want to say publically, I 22 really appreciate you all being here. And I 23 just wanted to kind of just for a moment just 24 talk about the right to counsel for a second. 236 1 And what do you think that the 2 investment would do to the housing stock and 3 the eviction numbers? How would the right to 4 counsel change the existing structure that we 5 have? And that's really to any panelist. 6 But you know, we only have three minutes, so 7 we don't get a lot of responses. 8 MS. CONNER: Sure. I think first and 9 foremost, you know, right to counsel -- at 10 least in New York City and other places 11 across the country -- has been proven to be 12 one of the most effective ways to stop 13 displacement. Right? 14 So in New York City in particular, 15 84 percent of tenants who have a Right to 16 Counsel lawyer win their case and are able to 17 stay in their homes. So I think that in and 18 of itself, preventing displacement, 19 preventing unreasonable or illegal rent 20 hikes, things of that nature, would 21 definitely contribute to, you know, helping 22 to keep folks in their homes and preserve the 23 existing stock. 24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: So, I mean, I 237 1 just want to build on that. It is not just 2 that, right, because the cost of shelters 3 are -- you know, we heard from the last 4 panel -- $4,000 a month. And you know, 5 $100,000 for her to live in a shelter and the 6 right to counsel, like you are saying -- if 7 we were successful eight out of 10 cases, we 8 are just saving the government money on -- 9 well, do we have good data that shows that 10 investment in this will save us money in the 11 long term? 12 MS. CONNER: Yes. So I have to say 13 two things. One, we are working on a cost 14 study to -- you know, as I mentioned, we have 15 a preliminary number that I mentioned today. 16 We will have a cost study that we can share 17 publicly with folks in coming weeks. And, 18 you know, we do know from the New York City 19 study and from studies of Right to Counsel 20 across the country that Right to Counsel does 21 save significant public dollars in terms of 22 emergency shelter costs, transitional 23 housing, and rehousing. 24 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Malika, I know I 238 1 only have 30 seconds left, so I want to -- if 2 you can just talk to the homeowner side. I 3 know we need more money for ERAP as well, 4 that's really clear. Just on the 5 homeowner -- so we heard earlier from the 6 commissioner, she talked about not all the 7 money being spent for the homeowner 8 assistance funds we've put together. 9 What else do we need to be doing for 10 homeowners to ensure that there are enough 11 resources to keep people in their homes as 12 well as providing legal counsel to them? 13 Christie or Jay, maybe. 14 MS. PEALE: Yes. I was a little 15 rushed, so I didn't mention that half of the 16 groups in the Homeowner Protection Program 17 across the state are housing counselors and 18 they provide a lot of really essential, you 19 know, budget advice, help with the Homeowner 20 Assistance Fund application, modification 21 help, and they work very closely with the 22 legal services groups like CAMBA and Legal 23 Aid Society of Mid-Hudson. 24 So I think that combination of housing 239 1 counseling and legal services is really -- it 2 is pretty unique across the country. 3 Actually, New York State's a model. And it 4 has been really effective at not just helping 5 with issues like scams but, as Jay mentioned, 6 working on a lot of these really complex and 7 persistent issues. 8 Especially, you know, we are really, 9 as I mentioned, incredibly concerned about 10 the number of homeowners who are going to 11 start to get 90-day notices starting on 12 April 15th. Right on Tax Day, the first 13 90-day notices will start to come out 14 indicating that the foreclosure moratorium is 15 over. So, you know, we are really worried 16 about the stress and the trauma that's going 17 to create for a huge number of families 18 across the state. And the HOPP program is 19 the first line of defense for homeowners 20 across the income spectrum, right? 21 So a lot of our resources in New York 22 City and across the state are 23 income-restricted. HOPP will serve anybody 24 who comes in the door. And we know that 240 1 COVID has rendered a lot of, you know, 2 previously more moderate- or middle-income 3 families in a much more precarious financial 4 state. 5 So thanks for the question, 6 Assemblymember. We really appreciate your 7 support. We are very, very grateful for 8 everything that the Assembly and the Senate 9 have done in the past, and it is just 10 incredible to be in the Executive Budget for 11 the first time ever. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MS. PEALE: Thank you for all of the 14 excitement. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 MS. PEALE: But I really am anxious to 17 find ways to increase that support, because 18 we think next year is going to be a bear of a 19 year. 20 MR. FLEMMA: If I may quickly add, 21 Assemblywoman Weinstein, we are grateful for 22 the money. The other things that we need 23 are please keep your eyes open for the 24 consumer protection bills that are coming 241 1 down the line, the bills that are coming down 2 regarding the statute of limitations, and 3 especially keep your eyes peeled on what the 4 World Economic Forum and Davos have planned 5 for American residential private home 6 ownership. It is chilling. 7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you, and 8 I know post-budget we'll be -- we will 9 continue to be in touch with many of the 10 people in this panel to make sure that we 11 properly fund legal services and protect 12 homeowners and tenants alike. 13 I want to say thank you to this panel. 14 We are going to move on to Panel D. 15 Senator Krueger, did you want to -- 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I was thanking 17 everyone. Thank you. 18 MS. PEALE: Thank you. 19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we are going 20 to move on to Panel D: Rural Housing 21 Coalition of New York, Michael Borges, 22 executive director; New York State Rural 23 Advocates, Blair Sebastian, director; East 24 Harlem/El Barrio Community Land Trust, Athena 242 1 Bernkopf, project director; New Economy 2 Project/New York City Community Land 3 Initiative, Elise Goldin, campaign organizer; 4 Neighborhood Preservation Coalition, Mark 5 Streb, executive director; and Community 6 Housing Improvement Program, Joseph Condon, 7 general counsel. 8 Hopefully all of those people are 9 here, and if we could just start going in the 10 order that I introduced you. 11 Rural Housing Coalition of New York. 12 MR. BORGES: Thank you, Chairwoman 13 Weinstein, and thank you for allowing me to 14 speak to you tonight. I appreciate all of 15 the committee members for sticking around 16 this late. 17 Again, I am Mike Borges, executive 18 director of the Rural Housing Coalition of 19 New York. The coalition represents 20 affordable housing and community development 21 organizations that serve rural communities 22 throughout the state. 23 The Rural Housing Coalition was 24 pleased that the Executive Budget included 243 1 funding for a new five-year capital housing 2 plan. The plan lacks certain details on how 3 these funds could be utilized in rural 4 communities, and we are disappointed that the 5 current housing programs, particularly those 6 that serve rural communities, were either 7 flat-funded or omitted from the 8 Executive Budget. 9 Many of the housing programs heavily 10 utilized by the rural preservation companies, 11 the local nonprofit entities that are the 12 boots on the ground in rural communities 13 which enable the state to deliver and 14 implement its housing initiatives, are 15 flat-funded again in the Executive Budget, 16 programs like New York Main Street, Housing 17 Trust Fund, HOPE/RESTORE, et cetera, 18 et cetera. Without the rural preservation 19 companies, there would be no one helping 20 seniors with fixing leaking roofs, or 21 installing a ramp for disabled veterans, or 22 rehabbing and constructing new affordable 23 housing in rural communities. 24 In addition, funding for the Rural 244 1 Housing and Neighborhood Coalitions were left 2 out of the Executive Budget. I was 3 encouraged by Senator Kavanagh's earlier 4 questions to the commissioner and her 5 response that this funding would be under 6 review, and we are hopeful that the 7 Legislature will increase funding for the 8 preservation programs, since we are only 9 asking for a modest $840,000 increase in the 10 Rural Preservation Program in a year with the 11 state anticipating at least a $6 billion 12 surplus. 13 Funding for preservation programs has 14 not increased in over a decade. Meanwhile, 15 our labor and material costs have increased 16 by 24 percent since 2011. We are also asking 17 for a modest increase in the RESTORE/Access 18 to Home program, which provides emergency 19 home repairs to low-income seniors and 20 accessibility modifications to the homes of 21 disabled individuals. This program is 22 currently funded at $1 million, and we are 23 seeking again a very small $2 million 24 increase to offset rising costs and materials 245 1 and labor, which I have just outlined. 2 To put this in perspective, according 3 to the latest U.S. Census, there are 4 approximately 1.2 million New Yorkers with an 5 ambulatory disability, which is meaning they 6 have a problem walking. In addition, current 7 law limits administrative set-aside to 8 7.5 percent of the grant. We are seeking a 9 modest increase to 10 percent to administer 10 this very labor-intensive and time-consuming 11 service. 12 The coalition also requests that small 13 rental development initiatives, SRDIs, 14 originally established and funded in 2017 15 with excess federal funds, be restarted again 16 with state support to fill the need for 17 affordable rental housing in rural 18 communities. We are seeking $20 million for 19 this program in order to encourage 20 private-sector investment in the development 21 of rural affordable rental housing that is 22 sorely needed by the residents as well by 23 economic development agencies seeking to 24 attract new employers and their workers to 246 1 these communities. 2 Thank you very much for your time. 3 CHAIR WEINSTEIN: Next, New York State 4 Rural Advocates. 5 MR. SEBASTIAN: Good evening, 6 everyone, and thank you for the opportunity 7 to present a brief overview of our housing 8 budget here today. 9 New York State Rural Advocates has 10 submitted detailed written testimony, so I 11 would like to take the occasion just to touch 12 on a couple of issues. 13 Recent U.S. Census data makes it clear 14 that rural New York had a pretty tough decade 15 between 2010 and 2020. The region lost 16 population, we lost employers, and we lost 17 housing stock. Our analysis of census data 18 finds that 20 of our state's most rural 19 communities -- counties -- lost a net total 20 of 15,600 housing units during the period. 21 We think this all suggests a couple of 22 fairly straightforward housing policy 23 responses. First, we need to protect and 24 preserve rural New York's most viable 247 1 remaining housing stock. Remembering that 2 three-quarters of the housing units in rural 3 New York are in the hands of owner-occupants, 4 our preservation strategies must respond to 5 the homeowner sector. 6 Our full testimony discusses two 7 underfunded programs that address exactly 8 this problem. The Affordable Housing 9 Corporation, AHC, is one of New York's big 10 three housing programs, along with the 11 Housing Trust Fund and the Homeless Housing 12 Assistance Program. 13 Rural preservation companies and other 14 rural not-for-profits use AHC to undertake 15 owner-occupied programs that provide both 16 financial and technical assistance to remedy 17 structural problems, to correct health and 18 safety issues, and to enhance energy 19 efficiency, thereby extending the useful life 20 of these homes. 21 The emergency repair program for 22 seniors known as HOPE/RESTORE also preserves 23 the existing housing stock while protecting 24 the health and well-being of low-income 248 1 seniors. A second policy response would have 2 us undertake a new construction program to 3 replace deteriorated housing units and to 4 begin expanding the inventory of modest 5 single homes available in rural markets. 6 Again, AHC program is the tool. Rural 7 preservation companies, Habitat for Humanity 8 chapters, and a host of other not-for-profits 9 can use AHC to write down the costs of newly 10 constructed single-family homes and to fund 11 the acquisition and rehabilitation of 12 existing homes to make them affordable to 13 first-time homebuyers. 14 With the changes to AHC recently 15 signed into law by the Governor, we expect 16 the new construction side of the AHC program 17 will have great potential for growth, but 18 that won't happen without additional 19 resources. 20 Governor Hochul has proposed a flat 21 fund at near 1985 levels, AHC at near 22 1985 levels, and she has not included the 23 program or anything similar in the proposed 24 five-year capital plan. We urge you to 249 1 provide the AHC program with $50 million in 2 the 2023 budget. 3 HOPE/RESTORE is also flat-funded at 4 1.4 million, and in order so that emergency 5 senior repairs service can be made available 6 statewide, we suggest that HOPE/RESTORE be 7 funded at $3 million. 8 Affordable rural housing is 9 complicated stuff. We urge you to read 10 balance of our testimony, and thank you for 11 the time tonight. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We can go on 13 next to East Harlem, Athena Bernkopf. 14 MS. BERNKOPF: Yes. Good evening, 15 Senators and Assemblymembers and committee 16 chairs. Thank you for opportunity to speak 17 today. 18 I am Athena Bernkopf. I'm the project 19 director of the East Harlem/El Barrio 20 Community Land Trust. And I also represent 21 East Harlem/El Barrio CLT on the coordinating 22 committee of the New York City Community Land 23 Initiative, which my colleague Elise will be 24 speaking on more later today, or this 250 1 evening. 2 I am here to urge you all to 3 prioritize Community Land Trust and other 4 shared-equity models in the state's capital 5 budget. The East Harlem/El Barrio CLT works 6 to develop and preserve community-controlled, 7 truly and permanently affordable housing and 8 commercial green and cultural spaces in 9 Harlem and El Barrio that provide -- that 10 prioritize households with extremely low to 11 low incomes. 12 And as a strategy to ensure permanent 13 affordability, East Harlem/El Barrio CLT will 14 own land and lease it to buildings on that 15 land as well as develop a resident-controlled 16 mutual housing association. 17 I went into this a little bit in the 18 testimony, the written testimony that I 19 provided, but I do want to reiterate that in 20 November of 2020, East Harlem/El Barrio CLT 21 closed on our first parcels of land. And 22 with that came four formerly city-owned 23 residential properties that -- many of which 24 were in terrible condition, which we are 251 1 currently rehabilitating and, after rehab 2 will be done, will create 38 residential 3 units, all of which will be set at rents that 4 are below market rate and protected for the 5 long term through a 99-year ground lease 6 between the mutual housing association and 7 the community land trust. 8 We also have three community and 9 commercial facilities that will be rented 10 also at below market rate, and we are also 11 supporting the all Black and brown 12 working-class community members that are 13 residents of the buildings now with training 14 to prepare them to step into the boards of 15 the mutual housing association and the 16 community land trust. 17 So I say all that to say that 18 community land trusts and mutual housing 19 associations have incredible potential for 20 creating and sustaining the affordable 21 housing that we all know is desperately 22 needed, as everyone has been saying tonight. 23 And so it is with this impact in mind that we 24 urge you all to pass, first, Tenant 252 1 Opportunity to Purchase legislation, knowing 2 that it would give residents across the state 3 an opportunity for resident control of their 4 housing. 5 We also find it really hopeful that 6 our state officials are looking seriously at 7 resident-controlled housing structures with a 8 five-year capital plan and a proposed pilot 9 program. But we must be clear that the 10 $50 million that is set aside or proposed are 11 nowhere near enough. The expenses related to 12 East Harlem/El Barrios projects just this 13 past year alone account for at least a third 14 of that amount, with just a single project 15 which only creates 38 units -- which are 16 essential to housing and community, but 17 doesn't address the crisis that everybody has 18 been talking about. 19 So we are also -- we're echoing calls 20 that the amounts that have been set aside for 21 acquisition and development costs be 22 increased significantly to actually cover the 23 real costs of developing and acquiring 24 housing that can be resident-controlled. 253 1 And we also want to reiterate that it 2 can't just focus on homeownership. The 3 majority of New York City residents are 4 renters, and so are significant proportions 5 of New Yorkers across the state. And so we 6 need to uplift rental properties and rental 7 structures that are community-controlled and 8 to support specifically the low-income 9 community members that are most vulnerable to 10 the housing crisis across the state and 11 beyond. 12 So that's my testimony for tonight. 13 Thank you all, and I am looking forward to 14 working with you all over the coming year. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 Next we go to New Economy Project. 17 MS. GOLDIN: Hi. Good evening. 18 Thanks for the opportunity to testify. My 19 testimony is going to be very parallel to 20 Athena Bernkopf's testimony, so I'm excited 21 to stress all of the points that they just 22 made. 23 So yes, my name is Elise Goldin. I'm 24 the Community Land Trust campaign organizer 254 1 at New Economy Project. And just to give you 2 some background, New Economy Project works to 3 build an economy that works for all, rooted 4 in racial and social justice, cooperation, 5 neighborhood equity and ecological 6 sustainability. 7 And the New Economy Project is one of 8 the cofounders of the New York City Community 9 Land Initiative, which is a coalition 10 advocating for community land trusts, or 11 CLTs, to preserve and create deeply 12 affordable housing, combat displacement, and 13 stabilize neighborhoods. 14 And as Athena said, again, what CLTs 15 are, for those of you who are not as 16 familiar, CLTs are nonprofits that own and 17 steward land in the community's interest, and 18 they often -- it separates the land and 19 what's on top of the land. And the CLTs are 20 able to lease that land for affordable 21 housing development or other community needs 22 through 99-year ground leases. And that 23 could include creating HDFC co-ops, it could 24 include homeownership opportunities or 255 1 whatever the community puts forth. 2 So in terms of our budget requests, 3 New Economy Project and NYCCLI were really 4 excited about the $50 million pilot program 5 that is supporting community-controlled, 6 permanently affordable housing. And we want 7 to stress that this pilot program should be 8 used not only to support homeownership 9 opportunities, but also rental opportunities 10 and other community-controlled housing 11 structures. 12 We also want to request the creation 13 of a CLT acquisition fund, starting with 14 $50 million to support CLTs being able to 15 acquire land and take it off the speculative 16 market. 17 And finally, we want to really urge 18 the passage of TOPA, Tenant Opportunity to 19 Purchase Act, which would again allow tenants 20 the first right of refusal, when their 21 building goes up for sale, to either become 22 the owners or to have some sort of control in 23 the ownership structure of their building or 24 appoint that to a third-party entity like a 256 1 CLT to preserve it as permanently affordable 2 and for the residents. 3 And finally -- and I am running out of 4 time -- I wanted to just say that we also 5 support Good Cause Eviction and a state Right 6 to Counsel as well. 7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. And 8 now we will move on to Neighborhood 9 Preservation Coalition. 10 MR. STREB: Good evening. My name is 11 Mark Streb, executive director of the 12 Neighborhood Preservation Coalition. Thank 13 you for the opportunity to speak. 14 The Neighborhood Preservation 15 Coalition consists of more than 130 local, 16 boots-on-the-ground not-for-profits who work 17 every day to help make consistent, safe, and 18 affordable housing a reality for 19 low-to-moderate-income residents across the 20 state. These groups are called Neighborhood 21 Preservation Companies, or NPCs. 22 The Neighborhood Preservation Program 23 was created by the forward-thinking 24 Legislature to provide resources to these 257 1 NPCs. NPCs around the state provide a 2 variety of services, including eviction 3 protection, homelessness prevention, 4 workforce training, youth and senior citizen 5 programs, and much, much more. 6 The COVID pandemic has only 7 exacerbated the incredible need for these 8 services. These groups have stepped up to 9 the plate and have done more than ever 10 before. The Neighborhood Preservation 11 Coalition was formed to provide technical 12 assistance, training in relevant subjects, 13 and to give NPCs a unified voice. 14 They actually named my budget 15 testimony this year "Disappointment and 16 Optimism." We feel disappointment because 17 the Executive Budget proposal maintains a 18 flat funding amount of 12.8 million for the 19 Neighborhood Preservation Program. Funding 20 for this program has remained flat for many 21 years with, inflation and everyday costs of 22 doing business increasing at an annual basis. 23 Flat funding equates to a cut in funding. We 24 request funding of 14.5 million for the 258 1 Neighborhood Preservation Program. 2 We feel disappointments because the 3 Executive Budget proposal failed to include 4 funding for the Neighborhood Preservation 5 Coalition. Again, thanks to the support of 6 the forward-thinking Legislature, we have 7 traditionally been funded in the final 8 budget. Unfortunately, our level of funding 9 has been stagnant at 150,000 for two 10 decades -- 20 years -- even though the 11 services provided seem to grow. 12 We therefore respectfully request an 13 increase of 250,000. This desperately needed 14 funding will allow us to maintain and 15 increase the resources we provide our 16 130 members across New York State. 17 We feel optimism because 18 Governor Hochul's housing plan will create 19 and preserve 100,000 affordable homes, 20 including 10,000 homes with support services 21 for vulnerable populations. We feel optimism 22 because the Executive Budget also funds 23 crucial preservation efforts with 450 million 24 for multifamily preservation; 20 million for 259 1 the Homeowner Protection Program; 26 million 2 for the Affordable Housing Corporation; and 3 400 million for affordable home capital. 4 In closing, we request that the 5 Neighborhood Preservation Program be funded 6 at 14.5 million and the Neighborhood 7 Preservation Coalition at 250,000. 8 Thank you very much. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 And now, Community Housing Improvement 11 Program. 12 MR. CONDON: Thank you, and thank you 13 for the opportunity to testify tonight. 14 My name is Joseph Condon. I'm 15 providing this testimony on behalf of the 16 Community Housing Improvement Program. CHIP 17 is an advocacy organization. Our members are 18 mostly owners and operators of small and 19 mid-sized rental buildings throughout the 20 five boroughs. 21 Despite being owners and operators of 22 rental housing, we consider ourselves to be 23 true housing advocates, because we want a 24 housing policy that works for everyone. We 260 1 advocate for policies that lead to a better 2 marketplace of housing options for all. And 3 we want real solutions for the tenants who 4 can't afford to pay their rent, and that's 5 the most pressing issue facing renters and 6 housing providers today: The large amount of 7 rental debt that has been accrued over the 8 last few years, and the significant need for 9 rent assistance to cover that debt. 10 Although ERAP has helped many, there 11 are still about 135,000 applications that 12 cannot be paid out because of the lack of 13 funding. And based on the current average 14 payout, an additional $1.7 billion would be 15 necessary just to handle the current 16 application load. 17 But what is not well known is that 18 there are many renters out there with arrears 19 who did not apply for ERAP. Based upon a 20 survey of our membership, it seems that about 21 half of all tenants in arrears have not 22 applied for ERAP. Statewide, that would 23 translate to about 200,000 renter households, 24 and in New York City alone that equates to 261 1 about 132,000 renter households. To cover 2 them, an additional 2.5 billion would be 3 required, and that would resolve rental debt 4 for this category of renters. 5 In total, about $4.2 billion is 6 necessary to address all pre-2022 7 pandemic-related arrears. We believe this 8 renouncing of tenant debt should be a 9 priority for this body and for the state 10 budget negotiations. 11 But that number is really just a 12 current snapshot, because there is no time 13 limit on when arrears can be accrued for the 14 ERAP program. A tenant could lose their job, 15 stop paying rent next month, and still be 16 covered by ERAP. Even further, a tenant who 17 received ERAP may still be facing job loss or 18 income loss and be unable to pay rent moving 19 forward. 20 Based on our surveys, repeat tenants 21 like that make up a significant portion of 22 all rental arrears in housing. So a separate 23 program is really needed to assist renters 24 facing financial hardship or limited income 262 1 to pay future rents. And while the price tag 2 of pandemic-related assistance appears 3 significant, the long-term benefits of 4 providing that relief are even greater. 5 The reason we are so focused on 6 addressing rental arrears and future rent 7 burdens is because research shows that rent 8 subsidies and cash assistance are the most 9 effective policy responses to ameliorate high 10 housing costs, low incomes, and income 11 inequality. 12 There is a compelling body of evidence 13 that increasingly shows that structural 14 interventions, like access to long-term 15 housing subsidies, improve future housing 16 stability. And income support policies 17 designed to reduce poverty also reduce the 18 risk of homelessness. 19 And for those renters who are 20 experiencing significant rent increases in 21 rents due to neighborhood changes, rent 22 assistance can prevent displacement there as 23 well. Research also shows that vouchers help 24 low-income households remain in neighborhoods 263 1 as they gentrify. 2 Thank you for the opportunity to 3 testify and to all of the Assemblymembers and 4 Senators who stayed on this late. 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 6 And we are going to go first to 7 Assemblywoman Hyndman. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you. 9 Thank you for all of your testimony. 10 My questions are going to be just 11 directed at Joseph Condon. 12 So your owners, the small owners, 13 would you say the majority of them are people 14 that own less than four units? 15 MR. CONDON: No. They would be people 16 who own typically list than 30 units, I would 17 say. Less than 50 units, somewhere in that 18 range. 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Oh, okay. So 20 one of the things that I have gotten a lot of 21 reports on is that for some of these 22 properties where there is a large amount of 23 arrears in rent, that investors are buying 24 some these properties. Have any your smaller 264 1 owners experienced this? 2 MR. CONDON: We have -- we have owners 3 who experienced this, yes, almost on a daily 4 basis. There are investment companies, 5 brokers reaching out to them asking them if 6 they are ready to sell. And I think you will 7 see it a lot in the smaller buildings. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: The smaller 9 buildings. What kind of outreach -- how does 10 one find your organization? Because up until 11 recently I had never heard about it. Because 12 we have some -- quite a few buildings that 13 are owned or have been in the family, like 14 your testimony says, and now that they 15 haven't been able to receive any rent -- and 16 not because their tenants haven't applied. 17 They have applied, like you said, and they 18 have not been processed for ERAP. And a lot 19 of them are still waiting, or what they 20 received is far less than what they had hoped 21 to receive. 22 So what kind of outreach do you do to 23 get people involved in your organization? 24 MR. CONDON: We sort of just do 265 1 educational events, mostly, teaching people 2 how to manage property and run properties 3 efficiently. 4 I would be happy to have a follow-up 5 conversation with you, Assemblymember, and 6 reach out -- find out who those property 7 owners are and reach out and, you know, 8 provide some assistance. 9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Do you see a 10 lot more women buying properties now? 11 MR. CONDON: I can't say that I see a 12 lot more women buying properties. I can say 13 that just as far as our organization is 14 concerned, we do have a lot of females who 15 are involved in the management or the 16 principal ownership of the properties. But I 17 can't speak to who is coming into the market. 18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: And my last 19 question is, for those tenants who could have 20 applied but did not apply for ERAP, why do 21 you think that is? 22 MR. CONDON: Either a lack of 23 knowledge of the program or a lack of -- I 24 think that's probably it. Lack of knowledge. 266 1 And, you know, there probably were 2 some tenants who couldn't apply because of 3 technological issues as well. You know, 4 that's probably a small portion of the people 5 who didn't apply. I would say that most of 6 the larger portion is people who just didn't 7 know about the program. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. Thank 9 you very much. That's my time. 10 Thank you, Chair Weinstein. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senator 12 Krueger? 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I see 14 Brian Kavanagh, our Housing chair. 15 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you very 16 much. 17 I will be brief, other than just to 18 note, in response to the Neighborhood 19 Preservation Coalition testimony for, you 20 know, a lot going on today, but just to note 21 that I asked specifically about one of the 22 issues that he raised. I asked the 23 commissioner why was there no money for the 24 coalitions themselves, and the commissioner 267 1 said she believed there was. So we -- our 2 analysis suggested that that was excluded 3 too. 4 But we will be following up. And, you 5 know, we'll also be talking about the 6 increase that you're proposing here today. 7 And just -- I'm just going to make an 8 observation. Which is CHIP, as was noted, is 9 an organization of landlords, property 10 owners. But just to say it is -- first of 11 all, I appreciate your coming here and 12 testifying today. 13 And it is also refreshing that we are 14 hearing, you know, strong support for rental 15 subsidy programs. That's actually been true 16 throughout our negotiations around the 17 Emergency Rental Assistance Program. And 18 just to say the advocacy that needs to happen 19 now going forward, around making sure that we 20 get adequate funding from the federal and the 21 state budget to cover those arrears -- you 22 know, we heard very strong testimony from 23 tenant organizations earlier to that effect. 24 And we have the Housing Access Voucher 268 1 Program, which is meant to be a permanent 2 program for that purpose. And again, that is 3 a top priority of many of the tenant 4 organizations. 5 So although I don't want to gloss over 6 often major policy differences -- and I know 7 they exist -- but just to say it is a good 8 moment that we have landlords and tenants 9 pushing for solutions that really will help. 10 I'm sorry, I'm just going to make that 11 observation, but let me yield the rest of my 12 time at this late hour back to my colleagues. 13 MR. CONDON: Thank you, Senator. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 15 So we go to Assemblyman Epstein. 16 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, 17 Chair. And I want thank all the panelists. 18 I really -- I think the conversations 19 around community land trust are something 20 that is really -- we are far behind the eight 21 ball, so I really would appreciate you all 22 advancing these conversations. 23 I am wondering, besides money, are 24 there structural changes that we and the 269 1 state need to do to allow CLTs to function on 2 a higher level? Or what are things we need 3 to do, you know, to do some things better? I 4 know it is a big bill we are trying to push, 5 but are there other things that you're 6 seeing, financial or not, that we're missing 7 out on? 8 MS. BERNKOPF: I can start us off with 9 that. 10 I think one of the reasons why we need 11 so much funding is specifically the 12 acquisition process. Right? A lot of 13 folks -- East Harlem/El Barrio actually 14 looked at publicly owned land with the 15 expectation that that might be easier to 16 access and easier to transfer into collective 17 community ownership. That being said, what 18 it did leave us with was incredible 19 development and rehabilitation expenses. 20 Right? 21 And so I wonder what would be possible 22 if we -- if community groups were given 23 access to properties that weren't 24 deteriorated or neglected or in terrible 270 1 condition, and were in solid condition and 2 given a smoother pathway to transition from 3 private, speculative ownership to community 4 control. 5 And so I think TOPA is one, like, 6 really clear pathway for that to be possible, 7 but I don't think it's the only one. And at 8 the city level we've also been working on a 9 Public Land for Public Good campaign that's 10 looking at prioritizing community land trusts 11 in disbursement of city-owned land. And it 12 creates another pathway for the transfer of 13 land into community stewardship and 14 ownership. 15 And I think that's a really concrete 16 way to make things easier for a community 17 land trust to expand and reach the scale that 18 we're going for, right? Because individual 19 properties here and there are not going to 20 radically change the housing landscape and 21 address the housing crisis that we're all 22 trying to really work at the root causes of. 23 We need something that will bring us to 24 scale. 271 1 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you. 2 And so, Joseph, if I could just -- 3 sorry, Elise, I was going to -- if I can, to 4 Joseph, just -- I heard you about, great, 5 that we're all on the same page about rent 6 arrears for residential tenants. And I just 7 wanted to make sure where you are on the rent 8 arrears for commercial tenants as well. 9 What are we hearing from small 10 property owners? Are they seeing some of 11 their commercial tenants really in crisis as 12 well, and do we need to be doing something 13 specifically to support that? 14 MR. CONDON: There is still a 15 significant lack of commercial properties 16 being able to either reoccupy those 17 storefronts or make good on those arrears. 18 So, you know, for those properties 19 where they do have those storefronts or 20 restaurants or whatever the ground floor 21 commercial space is, those typically make up 22 a significant portion of the -- of the budget 23 for that building. And yeah, I'd say there 24 still is probably a significant concern 272 1 there. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Yeah, happy to 3 talk offline more about that as well, to both 4 the CLT folks and to the CHIP about kind of 5 how we can help the small property owners and 6 the commercial tenants. 7 And thank you, Chair. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I don't believe 9 there's other Senators, so we're going to -- 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No. We want to 11 thank this panel very much. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Oh, no, we do 13 have some other Assemblymembers. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, excuse me. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we're going 16 to have to go first to Assemblyman Burdick 17 and then Assemblywoman Niou. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you. 19 And I appreciate all of the testimony 20 provided and certainly support the advocacy 21 for increasing funding for Neighborhood 22 Preservation Programs and other 23 community-based efforts. 24 There was some mention, if I heard it 273 1 correctly, that there could be more access to 2 state-owned land. And this came up earlier 3 in the hearing, and I'm wondering if anyone 4 can expand on that. When I asked that 5 question earlier, the reply was that whenever 6 there is a disposition of any state land, 7 before that's done, there should first be an 8 evaluation of whether or not there may be 9 opportunities for affordable housing. 10 And I'm just wondering if you could 11 comment on that and how you think the 12 Legislature could go forward in this budget 13 to try to promote that. 14 I invite any of you who may be 15 familiar with it. Elise, you're unmuting, so 16 I assume that you -- 17 MS. GOLDIN: Yeah. You know, I'm not 18 familiar with the state process of getting -- 19 kind of disposing of state land. You know, 20 like Athena said, we are working in the city, 21 in New York City, to try to adjust the city 22 charter to say that when the city gets rid of 23 publicly owned land that there should be a 24 first -- like a prioritization process of 274 1 CLTs and then -- 2 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Right. And 3 could I ask any of the non-city people 4 whether they might have any thoughts on this 5 as well? 6 MR. STREB: In general, any 7 opportunity to have land that the state owns 8 that we could use for housing just drives 9 down the costs of the housing structure. 10 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Right. 11 MR. STREB: So from that aspect, yes. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Well, that's 13 good. I think that offline I would like to 14 work with the advocates for this. 15 Thanks very much. 16 MS. GOLDIN: Yes. I also will just 17 say I know that there is a fight right now at 18 5 World Trade Center, that I believe is a 19 state-controlled site, where there is a 20 proposal for housing to be built. You know, 21 a very small portion might be, you know, 22 affordable in some sense. But there is a 23 fight to put that in a community trust and 24 have it be in the hands of people who are 275 1 going to make sure that it is 100 percent 2 affordable for community members. 3 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Great. 4 Thank you. 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 6 Assemblywoman Niou. 7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: I am just really 8 glad that Elise brought that up, because I am 9 a huge supporter of trying to make the 10 5 World Trade Center affordable housing. 11 And I also wanted to mention -- you 12 were talking about community land trusts 13 being established citywide. Are there any 14 land trusts currently serving tenants, or are 15 they all still under development? 16 MS. BERNKOPF: I just want to clarify 17 the question. Do you mean if there any 18 community land trusts that currently have 19 established housing that are renting and 20 operating with residents in them? 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Yes. 22 MS. BERNKOPF: Yes, there are. 23 Definitely at the city level there is 24 Cooper Square, that has been in operation 276 1 since at least the '90s and has achieved 2 truly deep, affordable levels of the -- of 3 course, when it started out, it was -- 4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: I love 5 Cooper Square. 6 MS. BERNKOPF: Right. 7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Give them props, 8 of course. 9 MS. BERNKOPF: At the state level 10 there are community land trusts, but I'm less 11 familiar with where they're at in terms of 12 residents. I don't know if Elise or others 13 here have information on that. 14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: On the state end. 15 MS. BERNKOPF: Right. 16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: She's having a 17 hard think. 18 MS. GOLDIN: I am having a hard think, 19 yeah. 20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Yeah. So I just 21 like kind of want to ask like what are some 22 of the biggest obstacles for folks trying to 23 establish these land trusts? And is it just 24 a question of capital, or do we have other 277 1 difficulties like acquiring properties and 2 getting them developed? 3 I know that like, for example, in 4 Chinatown we're very interested in 5 establishing a community land trust, but 6 there is -- there is, you know, a property 7 issue as in like certain, you know, things 8 that are going on that are a little bit more 9 difficult like for certain places. So would 10 love to kind of just see if I could pick your 11 brains on that. 12 MS. BERNKOPF: Unless, Elise, you're 13 ready to go. I know we're running out of 14 time. 15 I know there's always the "what do we 16 do besides money" question, but honestly it 17 usually comes back to the money. 18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: So it is capital. 19 MS. BERNKOPF: Yeah, it's either are 20 we able to access any property at all, right, 21 either at low cost or -- and in our 22 situation, the city did transfer us their 23 properties for $1 apiece. But again, they 24 were in really bad condition to the point 278 1 that we're investing at least, you know, 2 $13 million just in the rehab of four 3 buildings alone. And that's 38 residential 4 units. The scale is not comparative to the 5 need that we have across the city, much less 6 the state. 7 Even beyond just the general capital 8 needs, there's the training that really is 9 crucial to be able to prepare residents 10 themselves to do the meaningful management 11 and collective ownership part of it. You 12 don't just give someone a property and say, 13 Here, now you've got your home, it's yours 14 now, and flourish. It doesn't really work 15 that way. 16 We need resources, we need training 17 and ongoing support for the maintenance of 18 the property so they don't just become 19 another deteriorated property in another 20 decade or so that needs the support that we 21 invested in the first place. 22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Thank you for 23 that. 24 MS. GOLDIN: Yeah, and I think -- I 279 1 think creating policies like TOPA, that 2 creates really a right for tenants to be able 3 to take over their property and have that be 4 an established right, is really important. 5 And I just wanted to also add that the 6 City Roots CLT is an upstate group that has 7 tenants on their community land trust. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Great. Thank 9 you. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 11 This ends the questions for this 12 panel. 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I think it does, 14 yes. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I want to thank 16 you all for being here with us today. 17 And we're going to move on to Panel E: 18 Children's Defense Fund-New York, Ben 19 Anderson, director of economic mobility and 20 health policy; Lead Free Kids New York, Sonal 21 Jessel, director of policy; Clean and Healthy 22 New York, Paul Webster, director of programs. 23 And if we can go in that order, 24 starting with Children's Defense Fund. 280 1 MR. ANDERSON: Good evening. Thank 2 you. My name is Ben Anderson. Again, I'm 3 the director of economic mobility and health 4 policy at the Children's Defense 5 Fund-New York. I want to thank the chairs 6 for the opportunity to speak this evening. 7 As most folks know, Children's Defense 8 Fund grew out of the civil rights movement, 9 and our work is at the intersection of racial 10 justice and child advocacy. And I'm here 11 today to talk to you about childhood lead 12 exposure and the need for more funding in the 13 state budget. 14 New York has more children with 15 elevated blood lead levels than any other 16 state in the U.S. There are some communities 17 in New York where the rate of exposure is 18 five to six times higher than Flint, 19 Michigan, at the peak of its lead crisis. 20 Some of these communities are in pockets of 21 the Bronx, Brooklyn, and others are 22 concentrated in Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, 23 Utica, and Albany. The impacted communities 24 and impacted children are disproportionately 281 1 Black and Latinx. And to give you a sense of 2 the scale of the problem we're facing 3 statewide, roughly 28,000 children are born 4 every year who will suffer from childhood 5 lead exposure. That's about 12 percent of 6 all births in New York each year. 7 Now, I won't go into detail this 8 evening about the health impacts but will 9 briefly say that we're talking about 10 completely preventable but irreversible harm 11 to the brain. Year after year, children 12 continue to suffer because the system we have 13 now is primarily one that waits until 14 children show up at the doctor with high lead 15 levels before anyone will do anything to 16 eliminate the hazard in the child's housing. 17 So in effect, we are treating these 18 children like canaries in a coal mine instead 19 of going out and proactively finding and 20 fixing lead hazards. 21 In New York the total lifetime 22 economic burden of this system is roughly 23 $6.4 billion for children born in 2019 alone. 24 For these reasons, Lead Free Kids New York 282 1 and the Children's Defense Fund are 2 advocating for a $1 billion funding package 3 that will set New York on a path to eliminate 4 childhood lead exposure. 5 The funding package includes support 6 for many different state agencies, and I will 7 focus just a little bit on the funding for 8 HCR. Specifically, the package includes 9 $500 million for HCR to work with communities 10 to find and fix lead hazards. This means 11 providing grants to the lowest-income 12 homeowners and landlords to do the work. 13 I'll go ahead and stop there and pass 14 it on to my other panelists. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 We'll move on to Lead Free Kids 17 New York. 18 MS. JESSEL: Thank you. Good evening. 19 Thank you to the chairs for the opportunity 20 to testify regarding the New York State 21 budget on housing. 22 My name is Sonal Jessel. I'm the 23 director of policy at WE ACT for 24 Environmental Justice. I have my master's in 283 1 public health from Columbia University. 2 WE ACT was established in 1988 and has 3 been involved in the fight against lead 4 poisoning since then. Today I'm here as a 5 leader of the Lead Free Kids New York 6 Coalition, which is a coalition of experts 7 and advocates committed to preventing and 8 eradicating lead poisoning in New York State. 9 We are asking New York State to commit 10 $1 billion to fund sweeping lead poison 11 prevention efforts. Particularly, we're 12 asking for a budget allocation of $500 13 million through HCR. 14 Lead poisoning leads to severe 15 behavioral and developmental issues. There 16 is no safe level of lead. The American 17 Academy of Pediatrics even says that lead 18 below the allowed concentrations we currently 19 have in New York State is a causal risk 20 factor for diminished intellectual and 21 academic abilities and neurobehavioral 22 disorders like ADHD, for example. 23 There are no truly effective 24 treatments to reverse the damage of lead 284 1 poisoning. Lead-based paint in buildings is 2 our most significant source of lead in the 3 state. According to Columbia University, 4 there are about 5.3 million housing units in 5 New York State that contain possible 6 lead-based paint hazards. 7 New York State has thousands of 8 children with elevated blood lead levels, and 9 this is because New York State has the oldest 10 housing stock in the country. That's the 11 primary driver. For decades, our state's 12 decisionmakers have been sitting on a lead 13 poisoning crisis without any major sweeping 14 statewide action. 15 Childhood lead poisoning 16 disproportionately impacts children of color 17 across the state: Black/African-American, 18 number one; Latinx and Asian children also 19 have very high rates of lead poisoning. And 20 this is due to the lack of adequate resources 21 and support given to communities to upgrade 22 or remediate old buildings and a lack of good 23 enforcement for landlords to remediate lead 24 hazards in their buildings. 285 1 So we're asking for 500 million from 2 housing this year, through HCR. We're asking 3 for 50 million of that to be put aside for 4 HCR administrative needs, but the other 5 450 million going to programs to directly 6 assist low-income property owners and 7 landlords across the state to remediate lead 8 hazards in their properties. 9 We have calculated -- with inflation, 10 supply chain costs, labor costs -- that it's 11 about $33,000 to remediate a home, on 12 average. So with $450 million in funding, we 13 can fund 15,000 lead-free units across the 14 state, which would be sweeping. 15 And we know that lead exposure happens 16 when a house is a repeat offender, so when a 17 family moves out, being lead poisoned, 18 another family moves in, gets lead poisoned, 19 and it continues the cycle. So remediating a 20 house completely would help multiple families 21 that live in that home over a long period of 22 time. 23 So thank you very much for your time. 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. I 286 1 do not believe that we have questions. I 2 think the three of you have really presented 3 the situation that we're facing in our 4 housing regarding lead and the impact on 5 children very well. And -- 6 THE MODERATOR: Assemblywoman, there 7 is one more panelist, Paul Webster. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes. Paul 9 Webster is here with us. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry. 11 They did such a good job. 12 (Laughter.) 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I don't know 14 what they left for you to talk about, Paul. 15 SENATOR KAVANAGH: For the record, 16 that's also why I hadn't raised my hand yet. 17 (Laughter.) 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Go ahead. 19 Give us some more information. Give us 20 something new. 21 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, thank you so much 22 to the chairs, Senator, Assemblywoman, and 23 the Housing chairs as well. 24 I'm Paul Webster, policy director for 287 1 Clean and Healthy New York. And Clean and 2 Healthy is one of the core organizations 3 that's in the Lead Free Kids New York 4 Coalition and the Just Green Partnership. 5 You know, we have dozens of environmental 6 health, environmental justice organizations 7 that are part of our group and about 80 8 organizations representing more than a 9 million New Yorkers. 10 And as you've heard from my other 11 colleagues, the doctors and scientists tell 12 us that there's no safe level of lead in our 13 bodies, yet New York State has the 14 unfortunate distinction of having the highest 15 percentage of children in the nation with 16 elevated blood lead levels driven by 17 something we're a leader in, and that's our 18 aging housing stock. 19 As Sonal mentioned earlier, there are 20 more than 5.3 million homes in New York State 21 that were built prior to lead being 22 prohibited in 1978. And of these homes, 23 roughly 630,000 of them have children 24 present. As a result, New York faces 288 1 increased impairment to these children in 2 their ability to think, learn, and 3 concentrate. Lead poisoning can affect 4 nearly every organ in our bodies, and recent 5 research shows that adult exposure also can 6 lead to heart disease. 7 Renovating and repairing poorly 8 maintained housing is the best way to protect 9 New York's children from the irreversible 10 damage that is caused by the ingestion of 11 lead. A half century after New York State 12 banned the sale of lead paint in 1971, 13 New York State still, again, leads the nation 14 in the number of children with lead poisoning 15 and, again, lead-impacted housing. 16 And that's why our coalition proposed 17 a $1 billion investment in New York State's 18 lead poisoning elimination project, and of 19 which we noted $500 million for lead 20 renovation and repair within the budget of 21 DHCR and several other agencies. I mean, 22 we're very happy that the Governor proposed 23 record funding in the housing and the 24 environmental and other budgets, but really 289 1 not enough was done to combat the scourge of 2 primary lead poisoning, which is from poorly 3 maintained housing. 4 If you live in 20 zip codes in 5 New York State -- six in Erie County, five in 6 Monroe County, three in Onondaga County and 7 Syracuse, two in Utica and then in Albany, 8 Middletown, Newburgh and White Plains -- 9 those 20 zip codes account for 40 percent of 10 New York State's childhood lead poisoning. 11 And that comes from, again, housing that has 12 not been maintained. 13 And this bold development of 14 $500 million will really go a short way in 15 addressing the problem. As Sonal noted, 16 there are more than 15,000 houses that would 17 be impacted by this $500 million investment, 18 but we have 5.3 million houses with lead 19 present. So this will be a start, but we 20 still have a long way to go and there needs 21 to be continued and consistent investment in 22 eliminating lead-based hazards in New York 23 State. 24 And with our surplus this year and 290 1 close to $28 billion in surpluses identified 2 by Governor Kathy Hochul over the next five 3 years, this is the time to start making that 4 investment in eliminating the problem of lead 5 poisoning. 6 And I'll stop there. Thank you. 7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 8 Thank you, Mr. Webster. 9 We'll go to the Assembly. 10 Assemblywoman Niou. 11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: First and 12 foremost, thank you for staying so late. 13 It's already almost 9:00, so I appreciate all 14 of your time. 15 I especially appreciate your panel's 16 testimony on this issue with lead blood 17 levels in our children. As we know, economic 18 and ecological segregation is very real, and 19 I think that children of color are more 20 impacted more often. And it only takes like 21 less than a small fingernail of lead 22 ingestion to be able to cause permanent, you 23 know, brain damage and other kinds of growth 24 issues in children. 291 1 You noted that average blood levels 2 are higher in children of color, Director 3 Anderson. And how much of that is 4 attributable to our current public housing 5 stock? And what can we -- you know, I guess, 6 what can you tell us specifically about the 7 lead situation in our public housing right 8 now? And how far would funding go -- this 9 funding go toward tackling lead in our homes? 10 And how much more would be necessary in order 11 to make sure that our public housing units 12 are actually safe for our kids? 13 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, really great 14 questions. 15 You know, I think the issue of lead in 16 public housing is really one of equity 17 because of the disproportionate harms and 18 hazards that exist there and how many of 19 those tenants have been treated over time. 20 Just in terms of what we know about 21 the children that we've been able to identify 22 with elevated blood levels, of the children 23 identified we see many more of them and a 24 much higher percentage of them outside of the 292 1 public housing system. 2 But again, I think just speaking as to 3 equity issues, I think it's important to 4 focus in that space. And we know in New York 5 City, for example, I think work that Sonal 6 has been a part of -- that there's been 7 efforts to improve conditions with respect to 8 lead hazards there. 9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: So what has the 10 percentage been? If you're saying it's 11 mostly outside of public housing. 12 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, I -- 13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: What have the 14 largest numbers been? 15 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, I don't want to 16 guess. But I can get that information for 17 you after the hearing. 18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NIOU: Okay. That would 19 be very much appreciated. Thank you so much. 20 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. You're welcome. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 22 We go to the Senate. 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 24 I believe we have Senator Brian 293 1 Kavanagh. 2 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Yeah. I'll try to 3 be -- first of all, thank you for being here 4 and testifying. We actually had a bit of a 5 beginning of a conversation about lead and 6 asbestos earlier, and Chair Weinstein 7 suggested we await this panel. So I 8 appreciate -- this is great testimony we have 9 tonight. 10 And I've had the opportunity to speak 11 with each of you about these issues recently. 12 And, you know, we're working on lead 13 solutions as well as, you know, the funding 14 needs tonight. 15 But just for clarity, you know, my 16 Assembly colleague was talking about the 17 distinction between public housing versus 18 private housing. And, you know, because 19 there was so much justified attention to what 20 went on in New York City public housing, I 21 think there is a perception out there that 22 this is a public housing issue and that it's 23 a New York City issue. 24 You know, you mentioned a moment ago 294 1 that there are zip codes where this is 2 particularly concentrated. Can you just talk 3 about the geographic distribution of this 4 problem around the state? Like what -- which 5 parts of the state are most affected and, you 6 know, where are the highest levels? 7 MR. WEBSTER: Sure. Thank you, 8 Senator. 9 We have to recall that 85 percent of 10 New York State's total housing was built 11 before 1978, so the sensitivity to lead 12 poisoning and the lead threat that's present 13 in our houses is every district. But when we 14 talk about the zip codes where childhood lead 15 poisoning is highest, it's in Erie County, 16 Monroe County, Onondaga, Oneida, Albany, 17 Orange, Westchester -- those are the counties 18 where the top 20 zip codes that account for 19 about 40 percent of the state's childhood 20 lead poisoning come from, those 20 zip codes. 21 SENATOR KAVANAGH: And just for 22 clarity, these are -- this is based on data 23 where children, very young children's blood 24 levels are tested at hospitals, and that data 295 1 is aggregated by the Department of Health. 2 So these are cases -- and you're saying on a 3 per capita basis, those places are 4 experiencing very high levels of lead 5 poisoning. 6 MR. WEBSTER: Yes. 7 SENATOR KAVANAGH: Okay. I think it's 8 just important to note that we have a big 9 problem in New York City as well, but I think 10 it's important for people to recognize this 11 is not just a New York City issue but, in 12 fact, very much a New York State -- it's a 13 statewide issue that affects all of us. 14 Because I think that it's going to be 15 important that we get, you know, as broad a 16 consensus as possible to put the kind of 17 resources we're talking about. And, as you 18 know, we had a hearing of the Housing and 19 Health Committees in the Senate on this issue 20 as well. So, you know, we had a lot of great 21 testimony from your organizations and others, 22 and we'll continue to do so. But again, just 23 to say I join you in, you know, fighting to 24 get some real funding in this budget. 296 1 So thank you for your testimony and 2 for all of your advocacy in dealing with this 3 really heart-wrenching issue. Thank you. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 5 We go to Assemblyman Burdick. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you, 7 Chair Weinstein. 8 And just a quick question for 9 Mr. Webster. You just mentioned that there 10 are 20 zip codes, which include Westchester 11 County. Can you tell me which zip codes in 12 Westchester? 13 MR. WEBSTER: It was the 10701. It 14 was in White Plains, was the -- 15 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: White Plains. 16 MR. WEBSTER: Yup. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Okay. And just 18 that one zip code in Westchester? 19 MR. WEBSTER: It was just that one 20 that made the list of the top 20. 21 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: The top 20. 22 MR. WEBSTER: But again, the 23 sensitivity to lead poisoning is prevalent in 24 every district because of the age of our 297 1 housing stock across the state. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you so 3 much. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 5 Now I'm going to thank the panel, all 6 three of you, for being here with us. I'm 7 sure there will be some follow-up 8 communications with you as we move forward. 9 So next I'm going to call Panel F: 10 ERASE Racism, Elaine Gross, president; 11 Citizens Housing and Planning Council, 12 Katherine Leitch, senior policy analyst; 13 Community Service Society, Samuel Stein, 14 housing policy analyst. 15 And we can go in that order. Thank 16 you so much. 17 MS. GROSS: Good evening, 18 Assemblymembers and Senators. My name is 19 Elaine Gross, and I'm the president of ERASE 20 Racism, a Long Island-based civil rights 21 organization. And part of our work includes 22 working for housing and education. 23 So my testimony is related to the 24 creation of accessory dwelling units. Our 298 1 organization supports the creation of ADUs 2 because we see it as having the potential for 3 some public good because of their potential 4 to increase affordable housing stock. 5 However, there are some issues with 6 the legislation as it appears in the 7 Governor's budget. There are three concerns 8 which I will speak about, and basically I 9 fear that these concerns mean that the ADUs 10 are not going to be accessible to all 11 New Yorkers. 12 So first, the bill must clearly state 13 that ADUs shall abide by fair housing and 14 tenant protection laws. There's abundant 15 evidence, including from the ERASE Racism 16 housing discrimination lawsuits, that 17 individuals are still denied rental housing 18 because they are Black, with our lawsuits, 19 but also because of protected 20 characteristics, other protected 21 characteristics -- race, source of income, 22 et cetera. 23 In addition, the ADU bill must require 24 that the ADUs are held to standards related 299 1 to habitability and all tenant protections. 2 The second issue I raise is that the 3 ADU units shall not be exempt from the -- 4 what's called the Mrs. Murphy exemption, and 5 members of the public should be made aware of 6 these units. 7 Units that are not being used by 8 family members shall be made known to the 9 general public. This can be accomplished via 10 a state-maintained online registry that is 11 free to the listing owner or at low cost, 12 and/or the owners could be required to 13 publicly advertise vacancies on, again, 14 regional online rental sites. Unless 15 availability is made publicly known 16 immediately to the region, access will be 17 severely limited and it will fall along the 18 same lines as housing discrimination. 19 The third and final area that I'll 20 mention tonight is that the ADU units that 21 are built with monetary help from the state, 22 whether it's a loan or a grant, shall be 23 required to maintain below-market rates to 24 preserve affordability. There is a Senate 300 1 bill which states that, states this. In 2 fact, it talks about keeping the rents below 3 market rate for at least 15 to 30 years. 4 The Governor's version does not have 5 the same provision, and it should. 6 So with these additional protections, 7 ERASE Racism can support this bill. Thank 8 you for allowing me to provide this 9 testimony. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for 11 being here with us today. 12 Citizens Housing and Planning Council. 13 MS. LEITCH: Thank you for the 14 opportunity to testify. My name is Kate 15 Leitch, and I am a senior policy analyst at 16 the Citizens Housing and Planning Council. 17 CHPC is a nonprofit think tank that has been 18 dedicated to addressing the city's housing 19 and planning needs for over 80 years. 20 CHPC has spent well over a decade 21 researching ADUs and basement conversions, 22 which play an essential but overlooked role 23 in New York City's housing stock. In all 24 facets of our ADU work, we have seen time and 301 1 again that ceiling height, parking minimums, 2 and other unnecessarily stringent and 3 outdated municipal and state regulations 4 often make it impossible for homeowners to 5 create a legal accessory unit. 6 This is a problem for both occupant 7 safety and housing supply. The proposed ADU 8 act makes important strides towards reducing 9 these barriers. Creating a practical path 10 for homeowners to add a legal second unit 11 will make certain that apartments have 12 appropriate egress, bedrooms have emergency 13 escape and rescue windows, and occupants have 14 adequate lights and ventilation. 15 As an issue of supply, ADUs allow 16 localities to increase housing without 17 significant changes to neighborhood height 18 and bulk. ADUs expand housing choice, 19 they're inherently more affordable, and they 20 improve access to neighborhoods for 21 communities who have historically been 22 excluded. 23 For two-family homeowners, the state's 24 Multiple Dwelling Law can impose almost 302 1 impossible hurdles. As written, the ADU act 2 grants New York City the authority to relieve 3 parts of the MDL, but only in circumstances 4 where an owner is trying to legalize an 5 existing unit. This is an extremely 6 important tool to protect the tens of 7 thousands of New Yorkers currently living 8 without leasehold rights. But we strongly 9 encourage the Legislature to expand that 10 authority to cover the creation of all 11 accessory units. 12 As for the concerns about the impact 13 of ADU legislation on density, there are some 14 people who believe that there isn't enough 15 interest. There are some people who worry 16 about a population explosion. And yet others 17 somehow believe it could be both. 18 Thoughtful and considerate 19 implementation will ensure that it's none of 20 these. The state has established a very 21 thoughtful framework and asks localities to 22 incorporate the ADU program in ways that are 23 appropriate to the locality. ADUs present 24 the Legislature with a rare opportunity where 303 1 it can help both homeowners and renters, 2 seniors aging in place, and first-time 3 homebuyers, recent immigrants, and 4 multigenerational families. 5 ADU policy promotes private property 6 rights and fights segregation. It solves 7 barriers in the MDL and local zoning. We 8 emphatically urge the Legislature to adopt 9 this bill. Thank you. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. And 11 now, Community Service Society, please. 12 MR. STEIN: Thanks so much for the 13 opportunity to testify, and thanks for 14 sticking it out the entire session. I know 15 it's been a long day. 16 My name is Sam Stein, and I'm senior 17 policy analyst at the Community Service 18 Society, a leading nonprofit organization 19 that promotes economic opportunity for 20 New Yorkers. In our written testimony we 21 elaborate on the following key priorities for 22 the upcoming budget, which I will summarize 23 here. 24 First, end and prevent homelessness 304 1 through the following means: Prevent 2 eviction and displacement by creating a 3 statewide Right to Counsel to guard against 4 illegal evictions; pass Good Cause Eviction 5 protections to stop no-fault evictions, and 6 ban winter evictions, as cities like Seattle 7 have done already; pass the Housing Access 8 Voucher Program, a state-funded voucher that 9 would operate much like Section 8. 10 The commitment of $1 billion towards 11 this program would aid almost 85,000 families 12 or individuals in either exiting or 13 preventing homelessness. The Housing Our 14 Neighbors With Dignity Act passed last year, 15 and it should be expanded to make sure it's 16 available across the state. And we should 17 revisit language included in earlier versions 18 of the bill regarding land use and 19 certificates of occupancy that would make it 20 more useful. 21 The Governor's Executive Budget 22 included a bill that would bar housing 23 discrimination based on conviction history, 24 which is extremely important, but it included 305 1 two large carveouts that would decisively 2 undermine the bill's intent and impact. 3 Second, we call on the state to fund 4 social housing conversions and development. 5 Governor Hochul's Executive Budget proposes a 6 $50 million social housing pilot program as 7 part of her larger home ownership initiative, 8 as well as $120 million to reinvest in 9 Mitchell-Lama housing. These are important 10 steps. 11 Another would be the Tenant 12 Opportunity to Purchase Act. Under TOPA, 13 when rental buildings go up for sale, tenants 14 would have a right of first refusal to either 15 buy the building and turn it into a limited 16 equity cooperative, or designate a preferred 17 buyer to steward the building. 18 Third, preserve and protect NYCHA. We 19 are deeply disappointed that no commitment 20 was made to the New York City Housing 21 Authority in the Governor's budget. The 22 authority faces a $40 billion capital backlog 23 as well as operating shortfalls that force it 24 to use a portion of its inadequate federal 306 1 capital funds to fill the gap. The state 2 should make a long-term capital commitment of 3 $1.5 billion annually to restore NYCHA'S 4 infrastructure, a commitment that we will 5 also press the city to match. 6 Finally, recouping lost tax revenue by 7 ending the 421-a tax exemption by either 8 allowing it to expire in June or abolishing 9 it sooner. 10 Thank you again for the opportunity to 11 offer comments and for doing this all day 12 long. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for 14 being here with us today. 15 So we had some questions for this 16 panel. We'll start first with Assemblyman 17 Epstein. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, 19 Chair. 20 To Ms. Gross, I really appreciate your 21 comments on accessory dwelling units. Can 22 you comment about how not having an ADU law 23 impacts communities on Long Island that you 24 work in? 307 1 MS. GROSS: Of not having the law? 2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Yeah, how not 3 having the law in place. 4 MS. GROSS: Yeah. Right. 5 So, you know, we -- first of all, we 6 have a lot of ADUs. They're just illegal. 7 And, you know, there's -- you know, people 8 kind of close their eyes and whatever. So 9 that's one thing. 10 The other thing is there are some 11 300,000 Long Islanders who are 12 housing-cost-burdened. That means they pay 13 over 30 percent of their income on housing. 14 And the highest percentage of those 15 households fall in the lowest income 16 category. 17 So I didn't speak to this point, but I 18 think it's important that there is a low 19 income and a -- what do they call it -- a low 20 income and moderate income program that would 21 help homeowners because it could help them to 22 make units legal, or build new units, 23 et cetera. I think that would be very 24 important because there are certainly 308 1 homeowners of color kind of holding on, 2 trying to hold on, and this would be very 3 helpful. 4 So I think that we have such an 5 affordable housing problem here, and it is 6 a -- it's a statewide problem. That's why 7 we're having this discussion at the state 8 level. But sometimes people on Long Island, 9 again, with blinders, think that we don't 10 have a problem out here. But we do. 11 Thank you for your time. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you. 13 And to Ms. Leitch and Mr. Stein, I 14 just wanted to hear your sense -- I know you 15 mentioned ADUs. I just want to make sure 16 that -- where you both are. And if we have 17 time, Mr. Stein, can you tell me what the 18 state should be doing for public housing? 19 MR. STEIN: I can start, or you can? 20 Okay. 21 Well, we support the ADU legislation. 22 It's an extremely important element of 23 housing policy. We want to, you know, fight 24 to ensure that it has the strongest possible 309 1 protections for tenants and low-income folks, 2 whether they're the homeowner or the tenant. 3 But we absolutely support it. 4 In terms of public housing, we're 5 calling for a $1.5 billion annual commitment, 6 and we'll be doing the same from the -- 7 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Capital or 8 operating or both? 9 MR. STEIN: Certainly capital is a 10 priority, but the operating is essential 11 because we're just pulling out of the capital 12 budget to fund the operating deficit. 13 Kate, do you want a chance? 14 MS. LEITCH: Sure. CHPC is an ardent 15 supporter of the ADU legislation for both 16 housing supply and for occupant safety. It 17 is an essential source of income for modest-, 18 low-, and moderate-income homeowners. It 19 allows people aging in place to remain there 20 with a home health aide, with the help of 21 extended family, with the extra income. 22 So from a housing supply side, it is 23 essential. But with the housing crisis, 24 unless we can provide a safe and affordable 310 1 alternative, we're going to have people 2 turning to these informal units unless we can 3 make them accessible and legal. And if we 4 can provide a streamlined pathway to 5 legalization that prioritizes essential 6 safety requirements, we will go far in 7 improving the safety of thousands, tens of 8 thousands of New Yorkers living in these 9 units right now. 10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you very 11 much. 12 I think my time expired. So Chair 13 Krueger, I turn it back to you. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank 15 you very much. 16 And I'm going to turn it over to Pete 17 Harckham. 18 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you very 19 much, Madam Chair. 20 Good evening, everybody. Thank you to 21 our panelists for sticking it out. I greatly 22 appreciate it. 23 And I really want to thank you for 24 your unvarnished testimony on ADUs. There's 311 1 so much disinformation, and the other side is 2 just, you know, a lot of dog whistles. I've 3 been around affordable housing for 20 years, 4 and everyone becomes a traffic expert and 5 everyone becomes a wetlands and a steep slope 6 expert. And so I want to thank you for that. 7 And Elaine, I want to thank you about 8 talking about this as an equity issue, 9 because we know the greatest barrier to 10 equality is zip code. It determines 11 everything. And the fact that we have an 12 opportunity to allow folks to have housing 13 options in zip codes of opportunity is not 14 being discussed enough about this bill or 15 about the opposition to this bill. 16 So I want to thank you for bringing 17 that up. I think it's central to the 18 conversation, and it hasn't been to this 19 point. So I want to thank you all. 20 MS. GROSS: Absolutely. Thank you. 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you, 22 Senator Harckham. 23 I think it's back to you, 24 Assemblywoman. 312 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And we have no 2 further questions, so I want to thank all the 3 members of this panel for your participation. 4 And we are going to move on to 5 Panel G: ADU New York, Casey Berkovitz, 6 coalition coordinator; CNY Fair Housing, 7 Inc., Sally Santangelo, executive director; 8 Westchester Residential Opportunities, Inc., 9 Marlene Zarfes, executive director; 10 Cypress Hills Local Development Corporation, 11 Ryan Chavez, program director; Building and 12 Realty Institute of Westchester, Timothy 13 Foley, CEO. 14 So if we can go in that order, 15 starting with Casey Berkovitz. 16 MR. BERKOVITZ: Hi, there. Good 17 evening. Thank you for the opportunity to 18 testify and for your patience today. I know 19 it's been a long day, and it's still going. 20 I'd like to focus on the opportunity 21 that this year's budget presents to legalize 22 ADUs across New York. For the past 23 year-plus, I've been working with a coalition 24 of advocates from across the state, some of 313 1 whom you've already heard from, some of whom 2 you're about to hear from, as well as 3 Senator Harckham and Assemblymember Epstein 4 and a number of other cosponsors in the 5 Legislature on Assembly Bill 4854 and Senate 6 Bill 4547 that would also legalize ADUs. 7 I especially want to thank Senator 8 Harckham and Assemblymember Epstein and 9 others for their engagement with 10 stakeholders, both to help craft the bill and 11 then to make amendments that resulted in the 12 A print that's in the Legislature and that 13 some of the language of the Governor's 14 Executive Budget matches as well. They've 15 been very responsive to feedback, both 16 friendly and unfriendly, on the proposal, and 17 I really appreciate it. 18 So by legalizing ADUs like backyard 19 cottages, garage conversions, in-law units, 20 basement apartments, we can create extra 21 income for homeowners, we can create safe and 22 affordable housing for tenants, we can give 23 seniors the ability to age in place, and we 24 can foster healthy and more diverse 314 1 communities. It's such a win/win policy that 2 our coalition of folks who are supporting 3 this legislation is really everybody you can 4 think of from tenants' rights activists to 5 community development organizations to 6 homebuilders, industry groups, fair housing 7 groups, other folks you've heard from, senior 8 advocates, all sorts of folks -- and I'm sure 9 I'm forgetting some. 10 ADUs are an important resource for 11 both homeowners and tenants. On the 12 homeowner side, over one in four homeowners 13 in the State of New York are cost-burdened, 14 and an ADU can be an important source of 15 income for these folks. On the tenant side, 16 ADUs are an affordable rental unit, but it's 17 also key to ensuring that rental housing is 18 safe. Legalization is truly the only path to 19 ensure that the possibly hundreds of 20 thousands of folks in informal ADUs have a 21 path to legalization and safety. 22 I want to clarify that even with 23 legalized ADUs there's still plenty of local 24 control. Local governments write their own 315 1 zoning codes, they can maintain their local 2 character. What legalization would do is it 3 would set a quote, unquote, floor to ensure 4 that people have housing choices in their 5 communities. 6 All of that said, there are a couple 7 of improvements that I believe you are in a 8 position to make to the Governor's Executive 9 Budget proposal. 10 First and foremost, there will need to 11 be a more wide-ranging exemption from the 12 Multiple Dwelling Law. This was mentioned 13 previously, and I think will be elaborated 14 on. But as written, it essentially makes it 15 impossible for duplexes to add an ADU, and 16 that's a critical exclusion that we hope 17 you'll fix. 18 Secondly, as Elaine said, ADU 19 legalization is a critical step forward for 20 affirmatively further fair housing, but we 21 need to be sure that ADUs are covered under 22 the Human Rights Law. And I've included 23 language to that end in my written testimony, 24 and I'm happy to work with all of you to 316 1 address those changes. 2 Thank you very much. 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. CNY 4 Fair Housing. 5 MS. SANTANGELO: Good evening, 6 everyone, and thank you for the opportunity 7 to testify today. 8 My name is Sally Santangelo, and I'm 9 the executive director of CNY Fair Housing. 10 We are a nonprofit fair housing organization 11 located in Syracuse and serving 17 counties 12 of central and upstate New York. 13 And we work to eliminate housing 14 discrimination by investigating complaints of 15 discrimination, conducting undercover 16 testing, providing counseling, advocacy and 17 legal representation to victims of 18 discrimination, educating the community on 19 fair housing rights, and lastly by providing 20 technical assistance to municipalities to 21 improve housing access. 22 And I want to focus my comments on a 23 couple of issues. First, you know, we want 24 to express our support for the legalization 317 1 of ADUs. And to address the affordable 2 housing crisis that is facing New Yorkers, we 3 need to increase the supply of housing. And 4 this is a great first step in expanding the 5 types of housing that can be built in 6 communities that have historically limited 7 housing opportunity. 8 I think this will help in particular 9 in providing housing across the state, 10 including in smaller upstate communities 11 where we have slower housing markets and 12 don't often have the demand for larger-scale 13 housing developments, yet still face 14 affordable housing needs. 15 Also upstate has a high proportion of 16 retired homeowners on fixed incomes, and ADUs 17 can be an important lifeline that will allow 18 them to stay in their homes. 19 However, we do think that it is 20 essential that all housing in New York is 21 open to all New Yorkers, and currently under 22 the Governor's budget proposal ADUs would be 23 exempt, as has been mentioned, from state 24 anti-discrimination protections through the 318 1 owner-occupied Mrs. Murphy exemption. 2 Meaning people could still be denied due to 3 disability, religion and other protected 4 bases. 5 We ask that ADU legalization include 6 fair housing protections so that New Yorkers 7 who are already facing limited opportunity 8 and housing options are not shut out of these 9 new opportunities. 10 And then second I'd like to comment on 11 the proposed expansion of the state's fair 12 housing testing program. We were thrilled to 13 see dedicated funding in the budget for a 14 fair housing testing program. Over the past 15 two years the six private fair housing 16 organizations in New York, of which we are 17 one of, have been working on a pilot program, 18 the EBHNY program, that's been funded through 19 the Attorney General's office. And it's 20 allowed us to expand our service area and 21 increase staff, and gave us the capacity to 22 investigate state-protected classes like 23 source of income that our HUD funding hadn't 24 previously allowed. 319 1 And so we do -- are excited to see 2 continued funding for fair housing testing. 3 We do ask that the amount of funding be 4 increased from $2 million to $3 million to 5 help us maintain capacity that we've built 6 under the EBHNY program. And we'd also like 7 to see sustained funding for fair housing 8 testing so we can maintain the capacity we've 9 built to do this work. 10 Lastly, just briefly, I'd like to 11 mention our support for both Good Cause 12 Eviction and the state right to counsel bill 13 as well. 14 Thank you for your time today. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 Next, Westchester Residential 17 Opportunities, Inc. 18 MS. ZARFES: Good evening. I'm 19 Marlene Zarfes. I'm the executive director 20 of Westchester Residential Opportunities, 21 also known as WRO. 22 WRO is a HUD-certified housing 23 counseling agency, and we're also one of only 24 six qualified fair housing organizations 320 1 throughout New York State. We were founded 2 over 50 years ago, and our mission is to 3 promote equal, affordable and accessible 4 housing for all residents of our region. Our 5 region includes Westchester, but has now 6 expanded to the Lower Hudson Valley. 7 Given our mission, we're strong 8 supporters of legalizing accessory dwelling 9 units, or ADUs, throughout the state. We've 10 been working as part of a coalition in 11 support of the Harckham-Epstein bill 12 legalizing ADUs with some of the people who 13 you've already heard from this evening. 14 We appreciate the Governor's proposed 15 Accessory Dwelling Unit Act to promote the 16 creation of ADUs. In fact, the Governor's 17 proposal is quite similar to the bill that 18 we've been supporting. 19 However, there's a defect in the act 20 as proposed that would allow perpetuation of 21 discrimination. This defect can be easily 22 remedied. As written, the owner of an ADU 23 created under this legislation would be 24 allowed to refuse to rent or sell or offer 321 1 different terms and conditions in renting the 2 ADU based on any New York State protected 3 class. 4 So if I own an ADU, I can refuse to 5 sell, rent or lease or I can offer different 6 terms or conditions to someone because maybe 7 they have children or because they're 8 disabled, or based on their national origin 9 or their race. This is known as the 10 Mrs. Murphy exemption to the Human Rights 11 Law, and essentially this is legalized 12 discrimination. 13 It's WRO's position that ADUs must be 14 explicitly excluded from such legalized 15 discrimination. The defect can be remedied 16 simply by amending the act to provide that 17 ADUs created under the act will not be 18 subject to the Mrs. Murphy exemption. 19 So we strongly urge the change in the 20 legislative text so the benefit to be 21 realized by promoting ADUs and the 22 anticipated increase in affordable housing 23 will not be limited by discrimination. 24 Thank you all for your attention and 322 1 the opportunity to show our support for the 2 Governor's proposal to promote ADUs with the 3 slight change in text that will prevent 4 discrimination under the act. 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 6 And now we go to Cypress Hills Local 7 Development Corporation, Ryan Chavez. 8 MR. CHAVEZ: Well, good evening, 9 committee chairs and members. Thank you so 10 much for the opportunity to speak today. 11 My name is Ryan Chavez, director of 12 the basement apartment conversion pilot 13 program at Cypress Hills Local Development 14 Corporation. Founded in 1983, CHLDC is a 15 nonprofit community development organization 16 and settlement house based in East New York, 17 Brooklyn. 18 I am here to speak in support of the 19 2022 Executive Budget as it relates to 20 accessory dwelling units. Three years ago 21 New York City, in partnership with CHLDC, 22 launched the East New York Basement 23 Conversion Pilot Program, which aimed to 24 provide small homeowners in East New York 323 1 with financial and technical assistance to 2 convert their basements into safe and 3 affordable rental units. 4 We'd like to take a moment just to 5 thank Assemblymember Epstein in his former 6 role at the Urban Justice Center, for his 7 efforts in supporting and convincing the city 8 that a pilot program was in fact feasible. 9 Basement legalization has been 10 embraced overwhelmingly by the East New York 11 community as a strategy to both preserve 12 homeownership and create much-needed 13 affordable housing. And the hope was that 14 this pilot could help identify challenges and 15 workarounds when it came to accessory 16 dwelling unit creations, and lay the 17 foundation for a citywide basement conversion 18 program. 19 Through our ongoing work in East New 20 York we've identified three key challenges in 21 implementation that this state policy would 22 directly alleviate. First, parking 23 requirements. Roughly a quarter of 24 properties assessed in the pilot were deemed 324 1 ineligible, due to their inability to 2 accommodate additional off-street parking. 3 As such, we fully support this policy's 4 prohibition of parking requirements for 5 certain ADUs. 6 Second, ceiling height. Most 7 properties assessed in East New York did not 8 meet the 7-foot-6 ceiling height requirement. 9 To achieve this minimum height would require 10 excavation, which is both expensive and 11 risky. For that reason, we fully support the 12 establishment of a 7-foot ceiling height 13 minimum. 14 Third, the Multiple Dwelling Law. The 15 MDL is a state-level law imposing rigorous 16 housing standards on New York City 17 residential properties with three or more 18 units. So for a two-family home looking to 19 add a basement unit, for instance, this would 20 reclassify them as a multiple dwelling, 21 forcing them to comply with the new 22 regulations, often so onerous as to render 23 the conversion impossible. 24 As such, we support the requirement 325 1 that properties participating in a New York 2 City ADU amnesty program be exempt from the 3 MDL. 4 That said, it is concerning that this 5 MDL exemption is limited only to such an 6 amnesty program. In practice, this opens the 7 door to formalizing existing ADUs but keeps 8 the door closed on new ADU creation. We 9 strongly believe this MDL exemption must be 10 extended to include all two-family properties 11 in New York City, whether they have an ADU 12 now or hope to develop one in the future. 13 For these reasons I reiterate our 14 organization's support for including ADU 15 policy in the Executive Budget, and thank you 16 once again for the opportunity. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next we hear 18 from the Building and Realty Institute of 19 Westchester. 20 MR. FOLEY: Thank you, and good 21 evening. My name is Tim Foley, and I'm the 22 CEO of the Building and Realty Institute of 23 Westchester. 24 I want to express my appreciation to 326 1 the chairs and to the hearty souls within the 2 Legislature for continuing to remain engaged 3 at this late hour on these important issues. 4 We submitted much longer written 5 testimony on the provisions in the Executive 6 Budget dealing with transit-oriented 7 development and accessory dwelling units, so 8 I'll just quickly summarize. 9 Some members of the Legislature may 10 mistakenly assume that these proposals would 11 be deeply unpopular and rejected by the 12 suburban communities that would be most 13 affected, but I'm here to tell you it's not 14 true. Many of us in fact want them within 15 our hometowns. Why? Well, study after study 16 shows that allowing for walkable, mixed-use 17 and multifamily housing close to public 18 transit greatly assists us in reducing our 19 carbon footprint and revitalizing our local 20 downtown areas. It boosts our local economy 21 and is a potential game-changer for young 22 people and families who now work in 23 Westchester but have trouble finding housing 24 in their price range. 327 1 It leads to less dependence on cars, 2 more use of public transit, more walkable and 3 revitalized downtown centers, more 4 educational opportunities for children, and 5 provides a reliable source of funding and 6 ridership to the Metro-North Railroad that so 7 many Westchester residents rely on. 8 Let me take a moment to say what these 9 policies would not do. They would not end 10 single-family zoning. The house next to 11 Grandma's won't be replaced by a 10-story 12 apartment building. They would neither 13 dramatically alter the demand nor the supply 14 of single detached homes, bulky McMansions, 15 or mid-to-high-rise multistory apartment 16 buildings. 17 These proposals to allow for ADUs and 18 the building of 25 units per acre within a 19 10-minute walk of transit stations would be 20 most likely to yield a mixture of duplexes, 21 triplexes, townhouses, bungalow courtyards 22 and other in-context homes of all shapes and 23 sizes that would be the same approximate 24 height and scale as existing housing within 328 1 these neighborhoods. 2 These are also not foreign to suburban 3 New York communities today. I personally 4 live within half a mile of the Scarsdale 5 Metro-North Station. When my wife or I used 6 to commute to New York City, on our 10-minute 7 walk home we would pass by a small downtown 8 area with shops, some of which have small 9 apartments above them, we would pass by 10 senior-restricted housing, we'd pass by some 11 townhouse-style condominiums and a four-story 12 apartment building. And about two blocks 13 away from us is a single detached house with 14 an in-law suite -- in other words, an 15 accessory dwelling unit. 16 So let me say this again: I live in 17 Scarsdale. My property values have not at 18 all declined by the close proximity of these 19 homes with different shapes and sizes to 20 mine. Nor is the school district any less 21 desirable. And communities within 22 Westchester that have passed ADU ordinances 23 have not seen their populations explode 24 overnight. 329 1 In conclusion, we believe that not 2 only is state action warranted on these 3 proposals, it's long past overdue. 4 Thank you. 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 6 We do have a number of questions for 7 this panel, and we'll start with 8 Assemblyman Ra, ranker on Ways and Means. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair. 10 Just with regard to the accessory 11 dwelling units, we've heard a lot about this 12 today and, look, I -- you know, I get the 13 advocacy behind it. But, you know, I do take 14 exception to some of what was said with 15 regard to -- that it does preserve plenty of 16 local zoning. I mean, basically what it says 17 is you can make certain requirements, and 18 then goes through all the restrictions that 19 are on the local government with regard to 20 all of those different requirements. 21 You know, and particularly when you 22 get into lot coverage, you know, where I am 23 in Western Nassau County, these are very 24 small lots. 330 1 So I do have a lot of concerns with 2 this proposal, and frankly I've heard a lot 3 from my local governments, already very 4 concerned with these proposals. So I'm just 5 wondering, you know, if somebody wants to 6 enlighten me as to what you really think that 7 we're still allowing local governments to do 8 with regard to this. I mean, we've seen a 9 lot with the transit development -- 10 transit-oriented development on Long Island, 11 our villages have put up, you know, a lot of 12 little zones around train stations, it's 13 worked out well. 14 But, you know, I have a problem with 15 the state coming in and completely, you know, 16 putting handcuffs on the local government 17 when it comes to local zoning. 18 I guess that wasn't really a question 19 but, you know, I think -- 20 (Laughter.) 21 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: I have great, great 22 concerns with this proposal. And I think if 23 we think it's going to be so popular with the 24 local governments, then, you know, put some 331 1 type of opt-out or something. And if it's so 2 popular with the local governments, their 3 residents will be clamoring for them to opt 4 in to the proposal. 5 So I guess I don't really have a 6 question, but I do appreciate everybody's, 7 you know, insights from their experiences in 8 different parts of the state. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you, 10 Assemblyman. We'll send it to the Senate. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 12 Senator Pete Harckham. 13 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you, 14 Madam Chair. And thank you to everybody who 15 testified, and thank you all for your 16 collaboration on the bill. 17 I just want to comment on the prior 18 speaker. The build-out that someone is 19 allowed in this bill is only to the allowable 20 building envelope. So it's no additional 21 build-out. So if you're allowed to build out 22 3,000 feet and you're at 3,000 feet, you 23 can't build out anymore. It has to be within 24 that footprint. 332 1 So the notion that this is going to 2 expand footprints is from the prior version. 3 And that's what I was referring to on the 4 last panel; there's a lot of misinformation 5 about this bill from the last bill. 6 So I turn to Casey. And Casey, I 7 thank you for, you know, keeping all the 8 balls in the air on this. Maybe you could 9 take us through what some of those changes we 10 made at the request of local governments from 11 suburban and rural areas. 12 MR. BERKOVITZ: Sure, I would be happy 13 to. And thank you again for all of your work 14 with us as advocates and stakeholders to make 15 these changes. And I know you've certainly 16 heard from plenty of local governments in 17 your district along the way. 18 The biggest change you mentioned, 19 which is that localities are allowed to limit 20 accessory homes to the allowable envelope, in 21 addition to some of the kind of more 22 number-based dimensional stuff. 23 There's also homeowner occupancy, that 24 there was a change made so that local 333 1 governments can craft their own homeowner 2 occupancy rules, whether that's requiring 3 that a homeowner lives in the primary or the 4 accessory unit, whether they choose not to 5 require that, whether they put a length of 6 time requirement on it, that sort of thing. 7 And then, similarly, this is not quite 8 flexibility on the local side, but some of 9 the changes regarding kind of how this all is 10 enforced, changed both between the 11 Legislature's versions and then the Executive 12 Budget as well, that the kind of enforcement 13 and legal mechanism for noncompliance 14 changed, and I think is probably slightly 15 more amenable to local governments. 16 I would be happy to share a full 17 rundown of all of these changes with any of 18 your offices if you're interested. I don't 19 want to take up too much time here. 20 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you, Casey. 21 In my last 40 seconds I would also 22 point out one of the other limitations, the 23 natural limitation, has to do with county 24 health departments and septics, which many of 334 1 the suburban and rural are. It's based on 2 bedroom count. So if you're already at your 3 maximum bedroom count, this bill will not 4 overrule the county health department as far 5 as what you can do with that septic system. 6 So we've added a lot of protections 7 for local governments based on what they 8 requested. And again, I would just urge 9 colleagues from both sides of the aisle to 10 please read the A print that was submitted by 11 Assemblyman Epstein and myself in December. 12 It's much, much different than the version 13 from a year ago. 14 Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you, 16 Senator. 17 We go to Assemblyman Epstein. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, 19 Chair. And I want to thank the panelists for 20 all your work to get us here. 21 And Tim, it's good to see you back. 22 I'm sure you missed being on this side of the 23 Assembly. 24 So tell me why a suburban builders 335 1 association would be supporting this. What's 2 the logic to it, and how did you get there? 3 MR. FOLEY: Well, so in 2019 4 Westchester County released a housing needs 5 assessment which was very much, in our minds, 6 a call to arms, because it really painted in 7 stark relief exactly how bad the housing 8 shortage is here in Westchester County. It's 9 similar in many other counties within the 10 greater New York City area. 11 But it found that we needed at least 12 11,703 new units of housing just to meet 13 present-day demand in 2019. And one of the 14 areas that the housing needs assessment 15 specifically pointed to as being an easy step 16 to start to fill some of the gap was 17 accessory dwelling units. 18 We represent homebuilders, we 19 represent remodelers. There was a natural 20 link-up and a natural interest because many 21 of them have expressed some frustration with 22 where a homeowner, for the sake of their 23 property and their own financial situation, 24 would like to see an ADU built within their 336 1 property -- maybe it's a retired couple, 2 maybe it's someone who's looking for some 3 extra income -- but found that the process of 4 dealing with their local municipality was 5 very, very cumbersome for something that 6 would not dramatically affect their 7 neighbors. 8 And so it was a natural fit for us to 9 engage in advocacy on this issue. 10 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And so -- and 11 Marlene, just to talk more about where the 12 Westchester Residential Opportunities 13 association comes from, so why Westchester? 14 Why is this something you're putting your 15 time and energy on at 9:30 on a Monday night, 16 and why does it matter? 17 MS. ZARFES: Basically what Tim just 18 said. I mean, that housing needs assessment 19 really woke everybody up. To need more than 20 11,000 units back in '19 -- we needed to do 21 something. And that was one of the 22 recommendations in that report. 23 So, I mean, we see all the time that 24 there's not enough inventory, and we just 337 1 strongly believe that ADUs are going to help 2 a great deal. And as long as we have that 3 Mrs. Murphy exemption in there, we think it 4 will be really helpful to Westchester and the 5 rest of our community. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thanks. I know 7 I'm almost out of time. 8 Casey, what can you do to help just 9 give information to people who have questions 10 or a way for them to outreach to you, to 11 follow up? Just because, you know, obviously 12 as Senator Harckham just said, there's an 13 A version, there's a lot of changes. And I 14 know we don't have a lot of time to talk 15 through this. 16 MR. BERKOVITZ: Absolutely. Well, the 17 easiest is email, casey.berkowitz@gmail.com. 18 Happy to -- I have a written document that 19 has a comparison of all these versions I'd be 20 happy to share. Same, feel free to reach out 21 to Senator Harckham or Assemblymember 22 Epstein's offices, and they're happy to put 23 me in touch as well. And similarly happy to 24 answer any questions about any of the kind of 338 1 minutiae of the details of the bill. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, 3 Chair. I see my time has elapsed. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Can I pass it to 6 the Senate? 7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: The Senate, 8 yes. 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. Julia 10 Salazar has been waiting patiently. 11 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you, Chair. 12 I actually just have a question for 13 Ryan. So I am not a property owner, but I am 14 currently sitting above an ADU in East 15 New York. So your testimony and your work 16 hit close to home for me. 17 I wanted to ask you, are there 18 specific lessons that -- maybe observations 19 about barriers that you have seen in the 20 success of -- or limited success of the pilot 21 program in East New York that you've taken 22 away from the work that you've done that you 23 should share with us that hopefully could 24 inform a state ADU proposal? 339 1 MR. CHAVEZ: Absolutely. Thank you, 2 Senator, for the question. 3 I mean, I'll first begin by saying 4 that the interest in this program was 5 absolutely overwhelming in East New York. We 6 had people lining up around the block when 7 this program was first launched. 8 I will say that the most -- you know, 9 the most significant barriers that we came up 10 against are really these technical sort of 11 physical barriers that are sort of built into 12 the minutiae of codes and regulations. Just 13 things that make it much tougher for 14 homeowners to actually get the approvals or 15 to get a plan for conversion that is 16 cost-feasible. Right? 17 So I mean on one hand we certainly 18 need financial assistance to help low- and 19 moderate-income homeowners to cover the cost 20 of conversion, but we also need the 21 flexibility in the codes and regulations to 22 keep costs down. So things like parking 23 requirements, things like the Multiple 24 Dwelling Law, things like ceiling heights -- 340 1 these are things that either get in the way 2 of homeowners actually participating or just 3 drive the cost beyond anything that an 4 everyday homeowner in a place like 5 East New York can afford. 6 So the demand is there, the interest 7 is there beyond any doubt. It's really the 8 devil is in the details in terms of designing 9 a program in such a way that it makes it 10 accessible to homeowners, both in terms of 11 the financial resources but also 12 cost-effective in terms of driving down that 13 cost of conversion. 14 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you, Ryan. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 16 Assembly? 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes, we still 18 have two Assemblymembers. So we'll start 19 first with Anna Kelles and then Chris 20 Burdick. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you all 22 so much for these testimonials. Some really 23 important things have been brought up. I 24 just wanted to add a couple of things and 341 1 thoughts I have, and then some questions. 2 I wanted to elevate one thing that has 3 been brought up consistently about it being 4 extremely important for people on a fixed 5 income. In fact, the AARP has some amazing 6 reports out on the benefit of ADUs, and there 7 have been some really interesting reports 8 also about the reduction in sprawl because of 9 allowing for ADUs. 10 But I think, you know, the most 11 important thing that I've seen in the 12 research is that the ADUs allow for the 13 small-scale infill so that affordable housing 14 isn't happening exclusively by the 15 large-scale developers with high amounts of 16 cement and steel, which have huge GHG 17 emissions. And these are built more out of 18 wood products, for example, which is actually 19 a carbon sink. So the environmental impact 20 is significantly different. 21 So I just wanted to add those pieces 22 to what I'm hearing here today. 23 And the one question that I did have 24 actually was for Sally. I think you also 342 1 represent my district area. And what has 2 been -- what have been the main barriers that 3 you've seen in our area, which is Central 4 New York, to allowing for and supporting and 5 promoting ADUs. 6 MS. SANTANGELO: I think it's 7 important to note first that opposition by 8 local governments does not mean opposition by 9 residents. I think, you know, most people -- 10 this isn't really something that they've 11 really thought through that much, but I think 12 there's -- I think a lot of fear, unfounded 13 fear that it's -- you know, that it's going 14 to mean a complete loss of local control. 15 And, you know, we do see -- you know, 16 we still see a lot of housing opposed for a 17 lot of the same kind of historic reasons that 18 we have, the idea of a threat to neighborhood 19 character. And I think ADUs are no different 20 than that same idea. But most of the housing 21 opposition, the opposition we see to the 22 construction of affordable housing in 23 neighborhoods or the loosening of zoning 24 still often is about the type of people that 343 1 will move into the area. That's the reality. 2 That's what most of the comments end up 3 coming down to being about. 4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I find it 5 really interesting because the opposition, 6 the people who oppose this bill are often 7 talking about a decline in the New York State 8 population, and yet the people who are 9 leaving are, you know, younger professionals 10 who cannot afford the property taxes. And 11 this allows for infill and it allows for a 12 form of income that would allow them to be 13 homeowners, really countering the very issue. 14 So it's kind of counterintuitive to 15 oppose -- both want, you know, to counter the 16 decline in population and then oppose this 17 legislation at the same time. 18 So thank you so much. That was very 19 helpful. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 21 Assemblyman Burdick. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you. 23 And thank you, panelists, for your 24 perseverance. And I have a question that I 344 1 think would be posed to both Casey Berkowitz 2 as well as Timothy Foley. 3 And -- well, first to Casey Berkowitz, 4 I would be very interested in seeing the 5 comparison that you've done on the various 6 versions. I am in a district -- actually, 7 part of Westchester County -- in which quite 8 a few of the municipalities in Westchester 9 County in fact have adopted quite some time 10 ago, including my hometown of Bedford, 11 accessory use laws that have been successful 12 and been in place. And I think that one of 13 the concerns is that this would preempt those 14 and could invalidate them. 15 And I would like to see whether you 16 and other advocates may be amenable to 17 grandfathering those existing ADU laws, which 18 at least in Westchester County have passed 19 muster with a federal monitor to a housing 20 settlement agreement which I'm sure that you 21 are familiar with. 22 And I have heard from many of my 23 municipal governments that said, you know, we 24 have these laws and, you know, we don't see 345 1 the purpose in upending them. And I'd like 2 you to speak to that, if you would. 3 And I don't know, Timothy, whether 4 you're familiar with that too, but I think 5 that it could go a long way, at least in 6 Westchester County, if those were to be 7 grandfathered. Because they work. 8 MR. BERKOVITZ: Sure. Well, first of 9 all, thank you for your patience as well. 10 You've been here quite a long time as well, 11 I'm sure. 12 I will say if they are working -- and 13 I'm not intimately familiar with the details 14 of all of them -- they wouldn't be turned 15 over, you know, if they fit the broad 16 parameters laid out in -- 17 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Yeah, I'm sorry 18 to interrupt you. I don't have much time. 19 The problem is that you have no way of 20 vetting that. There's no mechanism by which 21 it states that this passes muster. Instead, 22 there could be litigation, there could be -- 23 having come out of local government, that 24 they have to turn this over to their 346 1 attorneys: Does this work, does this not? 2 You know, resulting in public hearings and 3 expense. 4 I just think that you really ought to 5 give some consideration on how it could be 6 streamlined and how there could be a way in 7 which they could say: Yours works, and 8 that's set. Rather than having them go 9 through that expense and what could be, you 10 know, difficult mechanics of it in their 11 municipalities. 12 MR. BERKOVITZ: So the bill in the 13 Legislature includes a process like that 14 through DHCR for approval of local 15 ordinances. I can't speak for the 16 Executive Chamber, but that language is 17 available if that's what you'd like to use. 18 MR. FOLEY: And if I could chime in as 19 well, the Epstein-Harckham bill -- I mean, 20 that's exactly why that provision is there, 21 so that existing ordinances can be reviewed 22 and told whether they pass muster or not. 23 Casey is right, that provision is not 24 currently in the Executive Budget. But 347 1 obviously, you know, most of the folks who 2 have spoken in support of ADUs have spoken in 3 support of that bill within the Legislature, 4 and we would certainly be in favor of it 5 being added back in. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. I 7 want to thank -- we have no more -- 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Actually, I'm 9 sorry, I do have two questions, Helene. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry, 11 go ahead, Senator. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: That's okay. Hi. 13 I've been trying to just quietly listen to 14 everyone. And my friends Harvey and Pete 15 will tell me later: Just ask us, don't 16 interrupt the flow. 17 But for I think both Casey and Ryan, 18 my concern is around the language or what it 19 needs to be to protect people in multifamily 20 dwellings. Because the stories I hear are 21 the concerns about basement units with one 22 egress, carbon monoxide from the boilers, 23 concerns about in some of the, again, wood -- 24 what we call non-fire-proof houses that are 348 1 designed to be two-family but sometimes can 2 already be six-family, with faulty wiring 3 because it was never wired for six units. 4 Just assure me that we're going to 5 make sure we've got the correct health and 6 safety standards in place that, even in 7 amnesty, you don't get a walk from those 8 issues. 9 MR. CHAVEZ: Well, thank you, Senator. 10 I can address maybe one or two of those 11 points. 12 I think from our point of view, you 13 know, we sort of see ourselves as at the 14 vanguard of safety advocacy. I mean, we're 15 as much concerned around the safety of 16 basement apartments as anybody else. I think 17 what such a policy, a statewide program like 18 this would do would be to allow us to 19 actually be able to sort of identify -- to 20 those basement apartments that may not be 21 habitable, right, and to identify those that 22 are maybe just shy of habitable that just 23 need a little bit of upgrade and retrofits to 24 meet basic health and safety codes. 349 1 So, you know, we are pro-safety. We 2 want to identify those that are safe and 3 those that are not. 4 And to the question around, you know, 5 wood-frame properties, my understanding is 6 that a wood-frame property could never be a 7 legal multiple dwelling. And I don't think 8 there's anything in the legislation either 9 put forward by the Legislature or the 10 Governor's office that would change that. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So you were 12 saying anything that's over two units is 13 defined as multi-dwelling, and you want to 14 allow them to at least go to three. But 15 there certainly are homes, one- and 16 two-family homes in the five boroughs that 17 are wood, not brick, that are already more 18 units than that. 19 So I'm just a little confused how 20 those would be defined. 21 MR. CHAVEZ: Yeah. My understanding 22 is that wood-frame properties just by statute 23 are -- you know, they're as of right not 24 allowed to be multiple dwellings. 350 1 Now, if there are existing properties, 2 right, that were built before the Multiple 3 Dwelling Law was established, you know, 4 that's one story. But I don't think anything 5 that's being proposed in this policy under 6 discussion now would facilitate the creation 7 of wood-framed multiple dwellings. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So thank you for 9 that. 10 So does that mean they would 11 potentially be ADU-eligible but not a 12 multifamily dwelling under the law? Just 13 clarify for me. 14 MR. CHAVEZ: Sure. 15 So, I mean, when I advocate for 16 exemptions from the Multiple Dwelling Law for 17 two-family properties, that is separate and 18 aside from the question of wood frame. 19 I mean, under existing law wood 20 frames, you know, would not be -- would not 21 be exempt under that law. That same 22 regulation would still apply. 23 But there are plenty of, you know, 24 brick -- you know, masonry two-family homes 351 1 that as of now cannot add a third unit 2 without having to comply with the rest of the 3 Multiple Dwelling Law, which is very, very 4 onerous. 5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Got it. Thank 6 you very much. 7 Thank you, Helene Weinstein. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. So we 9 are going to move on to our last panel for 10 today. This is Panel H, if you're keeping 11 score. New York State Public Housing 12 Authorities Directors Association, Bill 13 Simmons, president; Cooper Square Committee, 14 Elda Luisi, tenant; Housing Conservation 15 Coordinators, Elise Levy, tenant organizer 16 and advocate; Affordable Housing Leaders 17 Group/Housing Conservation Coordinators, 18 Christine Hughes, tenant leader. 19 So if we can have those panelists here 20 and go on and speak in that order, starting 21 with Bill Simmons. 22 MR. SIMMONS: Good evening, everyone, 23 and thank you for the opportunity to present. 24 My name is Bill Simmons, president of the 352 1 New York State Public Housing Authorities 2 Executive Directors Association, and the 3 executive director for the Syracuse Housing 4 Authority. 5 It's a pleasure for NYSPHADA to be 6 back before you, before the committee, and 7 thank you, the Legislature, for all of your 8 support. 9 As you know, for the past several 10 years NYSPHADA has been advocating for more 11 funding for New York State public housing 12 authorities throughout the Division of 13 Housing and Community Renewal. And we are 14 very grateful to the state for all the 15 assistance that the state has provided over 16 the last two years. 17 Last year the Legislature set aside 18 $125 million for public housing authorities 19 in upstate New York, and this afforded many 20 housing authorities the opportunity to 21 modernize their facilities. 22 Over the last two years NYSPHADA 23 members have accessed roughly $200 million to 24 help close deals for our members, including 353 1 several rental assistance demonstration 2 programs and others. 3 Governor Kathy Hochul has set aside 4 approximately $150 million for public housing 5 authorities outside of New York City, and we 6 respectfully ask the Legislature and the 7 Executive for $200,000 {sic}. 8 We are also here today to ask for help 9 for our state public housing authorities. 10 Mr. Chairman, as you know, we requested in 11 last year's budget that the state set aside 12 $554,000 for state-run public housing 13 authorities that never received COVID relief 14 funding. Mr. Chairman, we appreciate your 15 and Senator Kavanagh's support for this 16 effort, and we again ask that you include 17 this in the upcoming budget. 18 Finally, we ask the Legislature to 19 prioritize public housing authorities in the 20 Emergency Rental Assistance funding. As you 21 know, state law -- Senate Bill 2506 and 22 Assembly Bill 3006 currently single out 23 public housing authorities as last in line 24 for eligible funding. We ask that the 354 1 Legislature amend this bill to remove such 2 language and provide public housing 3 authorities with the ability to apply for 4 this much needed funding in a timely and 5 efficient manner. 6 I am honored to represent NYSPHADA 7 today and look forward to answering any 8 questions that the committees may have. 9 Thank you. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 11 Next, Cooper Square Committee. 12 THE MODERATOR: They will be 13 submitting written testimony. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. Thank 15 you. 16 So now we go to -- actually, I believe 17 we probably have -- the Cooper Square 18 Committee's testimony was circulated earlier 19 to members. 20 Housing Conservation Coordinators, 21 Elise Levy. 22 MS. LEVY: Hi, good evening, and thank 23 you for having me. My name is Elise Levy, 24 and I'm a tenant organizer and advocate with 355 1 Housing Conservation Coordinators. 2 In our catchment area, which is 3 Manhattan's West Side, we have a really high 4 concentration of 421-a units, so our 5 neighborhood is essentially a case study in 6 the remarkable failure of this program. 7 In our work with residents of the 8 affordable housing units in these buildings, 9 we see the same issues repeated over and 10 over. Tenants are experiencing unequal 11 treatment, receiving misinformation, and 12 being harassed. 13 An extremely common issue that we see 14 is tenants receiving misleading lease riders 15 that lead them to believe that their 16 protections are expiring, which causes people 17 to self-evict. So we're urging the 18 Legislature to pass legislation that will 19 fine landlords for providing such 20 misinformation. 21 And we also ask that all existing 22 affordable 421-a units remain rent-stabilized 23 in perpetuity. If the Legislature does not 24 take action, we expect to see thousands of 356 1 tenants self-evicting or being forced to move 2 out just over the next few years as these 3 programs continue to expire, particularly in 4 our neighborhood. So we need real, 5 permanent, affordable housing where people do 6 not have to worry if their affordability of 7 their unit is going to expire. 8 Further, we ask for an end to this 9 program as a whole. There's no reason to 10 renew 421-a or to replace it with a program 11 that is 421-a by another name. It's simply a 12 handout to developers. So we really need to 13 be investing in real, permanent, affordable 14 housing instead of wasting billions of 15 dollars on a program that primarily benefits 16 landlords. 17 So we demand that this legislative 18 reform to the program -- we demand 19 legislative reforms to the program to protect 20 existing tenants and to not renew the program 21 moving forward. And further, we ask that the 22 Legislature pass Good Cause Eviction to keep 23 the housing we have affordable and allow 24 people to remain in their homes. 357 1 Thank you. 2 (Pause.) 3 SENATOR JACKSON: Chair Weinstein? 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Is she not 5 here? Is Christine here? Oh, okay, yes. 6 MS. HUGHES: I think you were muted. 7 Okay. Hi, thank you so much. Last but not 8 least. 9 Hi, I'm Christine Hughes, and I'm a 10 tenant. I'm a 421-a tenant at West 54th 11 Street and 8th Avenue. I also have a 12 progressive illness. I'm disabled and 13 housebound, and I'm in my hospital bed at 14 home right now. 15 And certainly a home is everything to 16 me, and I feel for every person I've heard 17 testify all day here. I'm so grateful for 18 your time and to be heard. 19 Let's see. I just want to talk about 20 a few experiences I've had as a 421-a tenant, 21 such as eviction threats for years. And then 22 I decided I'll pay six-month rent chunks at a 23 time. It still takes me 30 to 40 days to get 24 my landlord to even deposit my rent check. I 358 1 often have to get legal help to do that. 2 There's a constant turnover of staff, 3 so no one is accountable. When the 421-a 4 tenants first moved into this building, we 5 were treated wonderfully. And as time goes 6 on, not so. 7 Also -- I have notes here -- losing 8 our private documents. At one point the 9 landlord lost all of our 421-a private 10 documents and then suddenly hired an outside 11 agency to do the annual recertification and 12 actually had the nerve to ask us to resubmit 13 all the documents he had lost. 14 So finally receiving -- as Elise just 15 said from HCC, receiving misleading, false 16 renewal leases stating that at my expiration 17 date I would be charged full market value. 18 The panic you can imagine, my being seriously 19 ill. 20 And I guess what I'm here for is I'm 21 hoping to get your support for a bill that we 22 tried to pass like a year or two ago, 23 Bill A641/S76, and it's to make passing off 24 illegal, misleading -- well, misleading lease 359 1 riders illegal. 2 And there's another bill that I'm just 3 as interested in, that's A8899, and what that 4 does is it protects all 421-a tenants. 5 Because this is the time for 421-a and 421-a 6 tenants. And if we must renew this program 7 that feels grossly unfair as far as housing 8 justice for all, could we at least protect 9 its tenants? 10 And I am humbly grateful to be heard 11 today and to hear all of the stories. I've 12 been listening all day. I feel really 13 grateful to have such wonderful New York 14 reps. And thank you for your time. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for 16 being our last witness. 17 We do have some questions of the 18 panel, so we'll start with Assemblyman Harvey 19 Epstein. 20 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you, 21 Chair. 22 And to you, Elise Levy, I just wanted 23 to hear the volume of expiring leases for 24 421-a you're seeing. And, you know, what's 360 1 happening for those tenants who are in those 2 expiring buildings? 3 And then, you know, thinking through 4 what the solutions might be, I do think what 5 Ms. Hughes was talking about, we need to 6 figure out a way to protect those tenants who 7 are in their home. 8 MS. LEVY: Yeah. I don't know an 9 exact number off the top of my head, and I 10 don't want to say one that's not accurate, 11 but I do believe it to be in the thousands. 12 And what we are seeing is, you know, 13 folks leaving when they get notices saying 14 that their affordability is going to expire. 15 Which, you know, for some folks they may be 16 losing stabilization. For others, they 17 actually may not. And there's just a real -- 18 real lack of clarity. You know, if you go 19 for a different agency, you might hear a 20 different thing than another agency. 21 So it's very confusing for tenants. 22 It's very confusing for everyone, frankly. 23 And so we see, you know, a lot of folks who 24 say they were going to self-evict before they 361 1 came to us. If they're not coming to us or 2 another neighborhood organization, I assume 3 that they are self-evicting. 4 And, you know, unless we have some 5 sweeping legislation -- or not even sweeping, 6 just legislation that would stop 7 misinformation, it's hard to reach everyone. 8 Unless we kind of make sure that that 9 information is being disseminated in some 10 kind of mass way. 11 I think the other thing that would be 12 really crucial is to actually ensure that all 13 units that are affordable, that are in the 14 affordable allotment, are stabilized in 15 perpetuity. That just kind of clarifies the 16 issue. If none of them are losing 17 stabilization, then there's no question. 18 And frankly, you know, we've put 19 billions of dollars into this program, so we 20 should be able to have permanent affordable 21 housing from it. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you very 23 much. 24 And Mr. Simmons, how much money, 362 1 capital, operating money do you need from the 2 state for the public housing authorities 3 across the state? 4 MR. SIMMONS: Yeah, Assemblyman 5 Epstein, I'm glad you asked that question 6 because I needed to clarify. I think I said 7 200,000, and it's 200 million. We pretty 8 much used that much last time. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And that's 10 capital or that's operating? 11 MR. SIMMONS: For capital. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: And how about 13 operating funds? Do you guys run an 14 operating deficit? I know in the city NYCHA 15 has operating deficits, and I just wanted to 16 make sure where we are statewide as well. 17 MR. SIMMONS: Well, yeah, we're 18 running operating deficits especially since 19 the eviction moratorium. And that's why we 20 often talk about making sure that public 21 housing authorities are not at the bottom of 22 the trough. 23 Many of us have run up a number of 24 arrears. And so if there's going to be 363 1 another allotment of ERAP dollars, we want to 2 make sure that we will be able to access 3 those dollars in a fair and equitable way. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you. 5 Thank you, Chair. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 7 We're going to send it to the Senate. 8 It actually looks like there's several 9 Senators, so why don't you -- 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes. I see 11 Senator Julia Salazar. 12 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you. I 13 actually -- I just have a question for 14 Mr. Simmons, but I did want to say, you know, 15 and I really appreciate your testimony, Elise 16 and Christine as well. Thank you for sharing 17 your experiences with the failures and the 18 abuses of the 421-a program. It's really 19 harrowing. 20 But my question for Mr. Simmons. My 21 understanding is that HUD currently doesn't 22 require and certainly the state doesn't 23 require that housing authorities submit a 24 physical needs assessment, even though, you 364 1 know, I personally think a physical needs 2 assessment at least periodically would really 3 help us in evaluating the scope of capital 4 repairs and the needs of public housing 5 across the state. 6 I just wanted to ask you, you know, 7 what do you think about the idea of having 8 housing authorities submit a physical needs 9 assessment in a reasonable -- you know, let's 10 say every five years to the state, so that we 11 could really understand and there would be 12 some transparency in understanding what the 13 financial needs are? 14 MR. SIMMONS: So just one information 15 correction, Senator. And that is HUD does 16 require housing authorities to go through a 17 physical inspection every year or every two 18 years depending upon what your score was the 19 previous year. 20 So if you scored 80 or above, you may 21 not be inspected for another two years. But 22 if anywhere in the 70s and 60s were your 23 standard, it would be every year. And if you 24 were below that, in failure, they would be on 365 1 your door with a corrective action plan. 2 So the federal government does 3 require -- does conduct independent physical 4 inspections on all the properties. We 5 haven't had any in the last two years because 6 there were a number of COVID waivers. But 7 the federal government does inspect. 8 As we move towards the rental 9 assistance demonstration program, which uses 10 quite a bit of the state and tax credit 11 dollars, then HCR and the tax credit equity 12 providers come in every year and do their 13 physical audit to protect their interest. 14 But the -- just for correction, HUD 15 does require a physical inspection of every 16 property at least once a year by independent 17 inspectors. 18 SENATOR SALAZAR: I certainly 19 understand that. My question is actually 20 more about a physical needs assessment. So 21 really just understanding the scope of 22 capital repairs and improvements that the 23 housing authorities feel that you need. 24 Basically to -- so that we can understand 366 1 exactly what the needs are for the respective 2 housing authorities across the state. 3 MR. SIMMONS: Yeah, so I think that 4 that's something that we could undertake for 5 all of our housing authorities. 6 What tends to happen is that when a 7 housing authority -- one of the requirements, 8 when we started to approach the state for 9 dollars to preserve public housing, aides to 10 the Department of Housing and Urban 11 Renewal -- Urban Development -- HCR decided 12 that -- they said, "Look, Bill, the housing 13 authorities have to approach their properties 14 in a holistic way, and you have to really get 15 into this RAD program where you're maximizing 16 your leverage to state dollars to address all 17 your physical needs." 18 So what tends to happen, once -- based 19 on that leveraging and that approach taken by 20 HCR, when a housing authority decides that 21 they're going to go into RAD and leverage the 22 federal, state and private dollars, a 23 physical inspection -- a physical needs is 24 required at that time. 367 1 And so you have that physical needs as 2 a requirement before you can apply for the 3 dollars. And ideally, once you bring all 4 of -- once you address all of your physical 5 needs on your property in a holistic way, 6 theoretically those improvements, like your 7 roof, your furnace, your windows, should last 8 you the life of the warranty, which is 20, 9 30 years out before the housing authority 10 should be coming back to the state or the 11 federal governmental for additional dollars. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I'm 13 sorry, I have to cut you off, Senator 14 Salazar. Thank you. 15 Assemblywoman. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We do not have 17 any other Assemblymembers. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Then I'm 19 going to turn it over to Senator Jackson. 20 SENATOR JACKSON: Hi. Last but not 21 least. Let me just say I thank you, Bill, 22 for -- Christine, you were a breath of fresh 23 air coming down the home stretch. So I thank 24 you for listening to you. 368 1 And I looked at the address, 2 Christine, where you live at, and I said, 3 whose district is that? Because my district 4 is 13 miles of Manhattan on the west side, 5 basically from up in Inwood all the way down 6 to Chelsea. And I said no, that's my 7 colleague's district. But basically it's all 8 of our district to try to make sure that we 9 protect the people. 10 And so I'm just happy that I stayed to 11 the end to hear this. I'm looking at the 12 bill right now that Linda Rosenthal had 13 introduced, and I will be talking to her 14 tomorrow morning about this and being 15 supportive. 16 I do want to hear a little bit more 17 about, you know, if in fact 421-a is totally 18 out, and I do not believe that the developers 19 will build affordable housing, that means the 20 government is going to have to build 21 affordable housing. But as someone said to 22 me, the billions of dollars in tax 23 incentives, we should use that in building 24 affordable -- good affordable housing for the 369 1 people of our city that need it. 2 So I just called in to say thank you 3 and continue advocating for the people that 4 rightfully deserve the services that were 5 provided. 6 Thank you, Madam Chair. 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you, Robert 8 Jackson. 9 And I also, I just want to say for the 10 three New York City people on this panel, and 11 for everyone listening, never self-evict in 12 New York City. We have right to counsel. 13 You have no idea whether you have legal 14 protections under something that you've never 15 even heard of before. 16 So please, please, please don't let 17 anyone you know self-evict. First go find 18 yourself a legal services attorney or another 19 community group who's doing housing law, and 20 really, really, really have them check for 21 you. 22 And now I think Senator Brian Kavanagh 23 also has his hand up, Madam Chair. 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes. Brian, we 370 1 need you to unmute. 2 SENATOR KAVANAGH: I thought I was 3 silent eloquence there. 4 (Laughter.) 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: It was, but we 6 still like to hear from you. 7 (Laughter.) 8 SENATOR KAVANAGH: So I'm going to 9 keep this brief because it's after 10 p.m. 10 But Elise Levy, I would like to follow 11 up on this issue of misinformation being 12 provided to 421-a tenants. But rather than 13 kind of do a series of questions with my 14 three minutes now, I'll just -- I think, if I 15 may, just may have our Housing Committee 16 director reach out to you. 17 But -- and otherwise, just thank you 18 to the panel for all of your testimony and 19 for your stamina to be with us still at 20 10 p.m. Thanks. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I think the 23 Senate is closed. Thank you. 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. So I too 371 1 want to, on behalf of Senator Krueger and 2 myself, thank all of our colleagues who have 3 been with us, many from early today. 4 I want to thank all of the witnesses, 5 those from this last panel as well as 6 everybody who's testified before us, and the 7 many people who submitted testimony and 8 chose -- submitted written testimony and 9 chose not to testify virtually. But that 10 testimony will be available to everybody. 11 Right before I close this hearing, I 12 want to remind people listening and our 13 colleagues, tomorrow at 9:30 a.m., we will 14 see you -- just under 12 hours -- we will be 15 seeing you for the Environmental Conservation 16 & Energy Hearing. We'll be starting with the 17 energy portion first tomorrow. 18 And all the members and Senators 19 should be getting -- or should have gotten 20 already the texts -- those who are eligible 21 and come from the relevant committees should 22 have already gotten and been sent the witness 23 list as well as all the testimony, so you can 24 read up to help form your questions for 372 1 tomorrow. And with that -- 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Spend the night 3 reading up for tomorrow. Good idea, Helene. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Definitely. 5 Definitely. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Or try a little 7 sleep and then come back at 9:30 in the 8 morning. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: It will help 10 you. It may help you sleep. 11 So with that, I want to officially 12 close today's meeting. Again, thank you all 13 for participating. 14 (Overtalk.) 15 ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN: Thank you. 16 Thank you, Chairs Krueger and Weinstein. 17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 18 (Whereupon, at 10:08 p.m., the budget 19 hearing concluded.) 20 21 22 23 24