Joint Legislative Public Hearing on 2018-2019 Executive Budget Proposal: Topic Environmental Conservation Testimonies

12 Senator Catharine M. Young
Chair, Senate Finance Committee
13
Assemblywoman Helene E. Weinstein
14 Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee

15 PRESENT:

16 Senator Liz Krueger
Senate Finance Committee (RM)
17
Assemblyman Robert Oaks
18 Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)

19 Senator Thomas F. O'Mara
Chair, Senate Committee on
20 Environmental Conservation

21 Assemblyman Steve Englebright
Chair, Assembly Committee on
22 Environmental Conservation

23 Senator Patricia A. Ritchie
Chair, Senate Committee on Agriculture
24

1 2018-2019 Executive Budget
Environmental Conservation
2 2-27-18

3 PRESENT: (Continued)

4 Assemblyman William Magee
Chair, Assembly Committee on
5 Agriculture

6 Assemblyman Daniel J. O'Donnell
Chair, Assembly Committee on
7 Tourism, Parks, Arts and
Sports Development
8
Assemblyman Michael J. Cusick
9 Chair, Assembly Committee on Energy

10 Senator Diane J. Savino
Vice Chair, Senate Finance Committee
11
Senator Elizabeth O'C. Little
12
Assemblywoman Patricia Fahy
13
Assemblyman Robert Carroll
14
Senator Pamela Helming
15
Senator Brad Hoylman
16
Assemblyman Dan Stec
17
Senator Elaine Phillips
18
Assemblyman Steven Otis
19
Assemblywoman Addie Jenne
20
Assemblywoman Didi Barrett
21
Senator John E. Brooks
22
Assemblywoman Barbara S. Lifton
23
Assemblywoman Deborah J. Glick
24

1 2018-2019 Executive Budget
Environmental Conservation
2 2-27-18

3 PRESENT: (Continued)

4 Senator Todd Kaminsky

5 Assemblywoman Carrie Woerner

6 Assemblyman Fred W. Thiele, Jr.

7 Assemblyman Walter T. Mosley

8 Assemblyman Clifford W. Crouch

9 Assemblywoman Crystal D. Peoples-Stokes

10 Assemblyman William Colton

11 Assemblywoman Christine Pellegrino

12 Assemblywoman Jaime R. Williams

13 Assemblyman Ken Blankenbush

14

15

16

17 LIST OF SPEAKERS

18 STATEMENT QUESTIONS

19 Basil Seggos
Acting Commissioner
20 NYS Department of
Environmental Conservation 9 19
21
Rose Harvey
22 Commissioner
NYS Office of Parks, Recreation
23 and Historic Preservation 186 193

24

1 2018-2019 Executive Budget
Environmental Conservation
2 2-27-18

3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued

4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS

5 Richard A. Ball
Commissioner
6 NYS Department of Agriculture
and Markets 236 241
7
John B. Rhodes
8 Chair
NYS Public Service Commission 303 309
9
Alicia Barton
10 President & CEO
NYSERDA 398 403
11
Gil Quiniones
12 President & CEO
New York Power Authority 452 459
13
Samantha Levy
14 Policy Manager
American Farmland Trust 499 504
15
Jessica Ottney Mahar
16 Director of Policy
The Nature Conservancy
17 in New York 506

18 Michael Burger
Director of Conservation
19 and Science
Audubon New York 513
20
Robert Carpenter
21 Administrative Director
Long Island Farm Bureau 519 525
22

23

24

1 2018-2019 Executive Budget
Environmental Conservation
2 2-27-18

3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued

4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS

5 Drew Cavanagh
Director
6 Forest Rangers Superior
Officers Association
7 Art Perryman
Board Member
8 Jason DeAngelis
Board Member
9 PBA of New York State 531

10 Conor Bambrick
Director of Air and
11 Energy Program
Environmental Advocates
12 of New York 542

13 Patrick McClellan
State Policy Director
14 New York League of Conservation
Voters 548 552
15
Erin Tobin
16 Vice President for Policy
and Preservation
17 Preservation League of NYS 554

18 Alison Jenkins
Parks Program Director
19 Parks & Trails New York 559

20 Kevin Chlad
Director, Government Relations
21 The Adirondack Council 565

22 John Bartow
Executive Director
23 Empire State Forest Products
Association 572
24

1 2018-2019 Executive Budget
Environmental Conservation
2 2-27-18

3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued

4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS

5 Neil Woodworth
Executive Director and
6 Counsel
Adirondack Mountain Club 577
7
James Dukett
8 Program Manager
Adirondack Lake Survey Corp. 582
9
Erik Kulleseid
10 Executive Director
Alliance for NYS Parks
11 Senior Vice President
Open Space Institute 586
12
John v.H. Halsey
13 President
Peconic Land Trust 591 594
14
Evelyn Powers
15 Senior Manager
Interstate Environmental
16 Commission 597

17 Mark Dunlea
Chairperson
18 Green Education and
Legal Fund 605
19
Libby Post
20 Executive Director
NYS Animal Protection
21 Federation 612

22 Geoff Baldwin
President
23 New York Water Environment
Association 614
24

1 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: I can't believe how

2 quiet it is in here.

3 (Laughter.)

4 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: This has never

5 happened in the history of hearings, so I

6 congratulate everybody.

7 (Laughter.)

8 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Good morning. I'm

9 Senator Catharine Young, and I am chair of

10 the Senate Standing Committee on Finance.

11 I'd like to welcome my colleagues,

12 especially Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein,

13 who is chair of the Ways and Means Committee

14 in the Assembly.

15 And I'll start by introducing some of

16 our colleagues who have joined us today. So

17 we have Senator Liz Krueger, who is ranking

18 member of the Finance Committee. We've got

19 Senator Tom O'Mara, chair of the Senate

20 Standing Committee on Environmental

21 Conservation. Senator Todd Kaminsky, ranking

22 member of EnCon. Senator John Brooks,

23 Senator Brad Hoylman, Senator Elaine

24 Phillips, and Senator Pam Helming.

1 Did I miss anyone?

2 Okay, Assembly?

3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We're joined by

4 Assemblyman Englebright, chair of our EnCon

5 Committee; Assemblyman Cusick, chair of our

6 Energy Committee; Assemblyman O'Donnell,

7 chair of our Tourism Committee; Assemblyman

8 Otis, Assemblywoman Lifton, Assemblyman

9 Mosley, Assemblywoman Woerner, Assemblywoman

10 Barrett, Assemblywoman Glick, Assemblyman

11 Carroll, and Assemblyman Thiele.

12 And our ranker, Bob Oaks.

13 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS: Yes, we've also

14 been joined by Assemblyman Crouch and

15 Assemblyman Stec.

16 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

17 The length of the hearing typically is

18 related to the number of pages of speakers

19 that we have. Today we have a three-pager.

20 So I would remind the speakers to summarize

21 as best as you can. Don't read your

22 testimony. And we also remind the members to

23 stay within the time limits.

24 Pursuant to the State Constitution and

1 Legislative Law, the fiscal committees of the

2 State Legislature are authorized to hold

3 hearings on the Executive Budget. Today's

4 hearing, the final of 13, will be limited to

5 a discussion of the Governor's proposed

6 budget for the Department of Environmental

7 Conservation, the Office of Parks, Recreation

8 and Historic Preservation, the Department of

9 Agriculture and Markets, the New York State

10 Energy Research and Development Authority,

11 and the New York Power Authority.

12 Following each presentation there will

13 be some time allowed for questions from the

14 chairs of the fiscal committees and other

15 legislators.

16 I'd like to welcome Basil Seggos,

17 commissioner of the Department of

18 Environmental Conservation. And he will be

19 followed by the commissioner of the Office of

20 Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation,

21 Rose Harvey.

22 So welcome, Commissioner. Glad to

23 have you here today.

24 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Great to be here

1 today. Thank you. Good morning, Chairwoman

2 Young, Chairwoman Weinstein --

3 (Interruption from protestors in

4 audience.)

5 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Are you on the

6 speakers list?

7 (Protestors continue.)

8 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you. Please

9 take a seat. I'd like to let people know, we

10 do have a process where people are allowed to

11 speak, but you need to go through the

12 process.

13 (Protestors continue.)

14 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: I apologize,

15 Commissioner, for that rude interruption.

16 And we do have a process where

17 speakers and citizens are allowed to speak.

18 That's what today is about. As I said, we

19 have three pages of people who are speaking

20 today. And I would encourage people to

21 follow the process, because it's a disservice

22 to everyone who is here to speak.

23 So Commissioner?

24 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you,

1 Chairwoman Young, Chairwoman Weinstein and

2 members of the legislative fiscal and

3 environmental conservation committees. I'm

4 Basil Seggos, commissioner of the DEC. And

5 on behalf of DEC's nearly 3,000 dedicated

6 professionals, thank you for the opportunity

7 to discuss the Governor's environmental

8 priorities for states fiscal year 2018-2019.

9 With me this year are Chief of Staff

10 Julie Tighe and Deputy Commissioner for

11 Administration Jeff Stefanko.

12 The past year has seen a dramatic

13 retreat from environmental protection at the

14 federal level. Washington is leading an

15 attack on the environment and science, and it

16 is jeopardizing the great gains we have made

17 as a nation over the last 40 years. New

18 York, by contrast, has set a high bar in

19 environmental leadership. Protecting our air,

20 water, and natural resources is critical not

21 just for safeguarding human health, but for

22 securing New York's economic future.

23 Thanks to the Legislature, our many

24 partners in advocacy, local government and

1 business, and Governor Cuomo's unwavering

2 commitment to the environment, New York is

3 providing national leadership on some of the

4 most pressing issues of our time.

5 While Washington works to decimate

6 federal funding for the environment, New York

7 is investing billions to expand renewable

8 energy, to strengthen clean water

9 infrastructure, and complete resiliency

10 projects across the state. While Washington

11 denies the existence of climate change and

12 works to scrap the Clean Power Plan, New York

13 cofounded the bipartisan U.S. Climate

14 Alliance and is committed to meeting our

15 share of the emissions targets. While

16 Washington rolls back water and air

17 protections, New York is regulating emerging

18 contaminants, suing the federal government

19 for upwind ozone emissions, and holding

20 polluters accountable.

21 2017 was another extraordinary year at

22 DEC. We continued our aggressive response to

23 water contamination, most notably in Hoosick

24 Falls, Petersburgh, Newburgh, and across

1 Long Island. In Newburgh alone, we spent

2 nearly $50 million in response to the

3 Department of Defense's PFOS contamination

4 and have recently completed construction of a

5 massive water filtration plant which will

6 protect the city's drinking water.

7 Having stepped in when the federal

8 government has failed to do so, it is now

9 their responsibility to reimburse the state

10 for our efforts to protect public health.

11 And our jointly created Drinking Water

12 Quality Council is developing drinking water

13 standards for emerging contaminants such as

14 PFCs and 1,4-dioxane.

15 Our first responders worked to protect

16 life and property across the state and

17 beyond. Forest Rangers conducted 346 rescue

18 missions. Environmental Conservation

19 Officers responded to more than 26,000 calls,

20 issued over 22,000 tickets, and conducted

21 dozens of investigations into environmental

22 crimes. We responded to record flooding on

23 Lake Ontario, and helped those outside our

24 borders impacted by fires and hurricanes,

1 including in Puerto Rico, Florida, Texas,

2 Montana, and California.

3 Working with you, we secured

4 generationally significant funding to protect

5 water through the $2.5 billion Clean Water

6 Infrastructure Act. In year one alone, we

7 provided $255 million in new grants and

8 $527 million in low-cost financing from the

9 EFC to help local governments fund 169

10 projects. And these are transformational

11 projects in communities.

12 We dedicated another $87 million just

13 for water quality protection, including land

14 acquisition and salt storage. And we just

15 announced $15 million for the first year of

16 the septic system replacement program to

17 support projects in 31 counties across the

18 state.

19 We launched a community air monitoring

20 program in the South End of Albany to

21 identify opportunities to reduce air

22 pollution at the Ezra Prentice Homes. We

23 will soon be expanding this model to other

24 communities across the state.

1 We're fighting for a complete cleanup

2 of GE's PCBs in the Hudson River. EPA must

3 ensure that the dredging project is

4 protective of human health and the

5 environment. Our own data has shown that the

6 job is far from done, and the Governor and

7 Attorney General have pledged to sue the EPA

8 if they deem the dredging project complete.

9 The Governor's 2018-2019 budget

10 continues his strong environmental legacy.

11 This year marks the 25th anniversary of the

12 Environmental Protection Fund, a

13 transformational program. The budget again

14 proposes a $300 million EPF, the third year

15 in a row at this record level.

16 Investments from the EPF protect water

17 sources, help forests and farms remain

18 resilient, monitor air pollution in urban

19 neighborhoods, provide access to public lands

20 for fishing and hunting, address

21 environmental concerns, help businesses

22 become more sustainable, and battle invasive

23 species -- all while supporting thousands of

24 jobs and billions of dollars in economic

1 activity.

2 The budget continues the $100 million

3 a year Superfund program, which among many

4 things will allow us to continue to address

5 the Grumman plume in Long Island and dozens

6 of other priority sites around the state.

7 The budget also continues the Clean Water

8 Infrastructure Act to help our communities

9 upgrade aging infrastructure, and it also

10 prioritizes a $20 million investment for the

11 Niagara Falls wastewater treatment plant.

12 The budget advances the Governor's

13 $65 million program to combat harmful algal

14 blooms, or HABs. These are becoming more

15 frequent and intense, so we're launching an

16 initiative to aggressively combat HABs that

17 threaten drinking water and recreation on our

18 upstate lakes and waterways.

19 New York set the most aggressive

20 climate change goals in the country -- a

21 40 percent reduction in greenhouse gas

22 emissions by 2030, and an 80 percent

23 reduction by 2050. The Clean Energy Standard

24 requires us to obtain 50 percent of our

1 energy from renewables by 2030. And we're

2 conducting an in-depth study with NYSERDA on

3 how to reach 100 percent renewables. Our

4 sister agencies are making record investments

5 in clean energy programs.

6 And at DEC, we will be expanding our

7 RGGI to include "peaker" power plants, and

8 shortly we will be proposing regulations to

9 end the use of coal as a power source in New

10 York.

11 DEC is also working with NYSERDA and

12 DOT on a transformational plan to reduce

13 emissions from the transportation sector, the

14 largest source of greenhouse gas emissions.

15 Armed with the best ideas from business,

16 local government, and advocates, DEC will be

17 investing $127 million in the Volkswagen

18 settlement proceeds in ways that will

19 accelerate that transformation.

20 The budget proposes an organic waste

21 recycling program to keep food scraps out of

22 landfills and divert food to those in need.

23 And we want to modernize the forest tax law

24 to protect privately owned forestland and

1 open space and promote the wood products

2 industry.

3 Lastly, this budget continues

4 Adventure NY, a multiyear campaign to connect

5 more New Yorkers and visitors to the great

6 outdoors. In its first year, Adventure NY

7 had notable ribbon cuttings and

8 groundbreakings across the state, such as at

9 the Five Rivers center, the Salmon River fish

10 hatchery, Frontier Town, and many other

11 locations in the Catskills, Adirondacks, and

12 statewide.

13 To support these initiatives, DEC's

14 budget for the coming year recommends state

15 operations appropriations of $447.8 million

16 and a capital budget totaling $796.4 million.

17 The budget maintains DEC staffing levels at

18 2,945 employees. This commitment will enable

19 DEC to continue building a stronger, more

20 resilient state.

21 Every day, DEC is on the front lines

22 of protecting public health and the

23 environment. While Washington is polarized

24 on so many issues, here in New York our

1 strong partnerships and our commitment to

2 results are cause for optimism. I know we

3 will succeed because with you, over the last

4 seven years, we have been doing just that.

5 Once more, I'd like to thank the

6 members of the committee for your time today,

7 and I'd be happy to answer your questions.

8 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you,

9 Commissioner, for that.

10 So the Executive Budget proposes to

11 maintain spending for the Environmental

12 Protection Fund at $300 million, but there

13 are some changes. So I'd like to ask for

14 your input on those changes.

15 First of all, within the solid waste

16 account, there is $300,000 in additional

17 funds for the pesticide database. So what

18 exactly is the purpose of those funds? How

19 would those be used?

20 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: The pesticide

21 database actually is currently six different

22 databases, and we need to transition that

23 into a single database. So we anticipate

24 spending that additional $300,000 in effect

1 to synchronize the six databases. Keep the

2 program going, but make it more efficient

3 through a better IT system.

4 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: I know there's been

5 an issue in the past about pesticides not

6 being approved quickly by the state, even

7 though they may be safer than ones that

8 already are being used. Would this help

9 streamline that process?

10 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: It will help

11 streamline the process. I think the more

13 less time we spend managing information

14 between lots of different databases. It will

15 make us more efficient. So I anticipate that

16 will help us, yes.

17 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: I

18 actually want to point out that we've already

19 gone through a process where we've leaned

20 that program, and we have not heard

21 complaints of late at all about registration

22 issues here in New York, because we've

23 greatly reduced the amount of time it takes

24 us to undertake those reviews.

1 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Good. Thank you.

2 There also is a million dollars in

3 additional funds for environmental justice,

4 community impact and job training grants.

5 Could you tell us about that?

6 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, the

7 Governor last year announced a commitment to

8 enhancing job creation, particularly in the

9 environmental justice sector. The EPF is a

10 powerful tool for that.

11 This year we propose to expand that,

12 adding job training capabilities within

13 environmental justice communities. It's a

14 million extra dollars over where we were last

15 year on this.

16 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay, thank you.

17 The natural resources damages program

18 is being cut by $1.2 million. With the

19 significant number of flooding incidents,

20 does that seem like the right thing to do at

21 this time?

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, the

23 natural resource damage account really is

24 designed to support natural resource damage

1 assessments, which is a function of

2 contaminated site assessments. We have been

3 spending money out of that account at a

4 pretty healthy clip over the last few years,

5 largely to explore the damages associated

6 with the GE PCBs damages in the Hudson River.

7 We propose a reduction in that line this year

8 because we are nearing the very end of the

9 19-year assessment of damages.

10 NRD funds cannot be spent on damages

11 associated with, you know, severe weather,

12 extreme storms, flooding. It's really

13 dedicated to assessing damages based on

14 contamination.

15 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay, thank you.

16 There also is a -- and this is a

17 separate account. This is Parks and

18 Recreation. So there's a decrease of

19 $2.5 billion for zoos, botanical gardens and

20 aquariums. It's pretty huge. Why is that in

21 there?

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, the EPF --

23 the Governor has made a commitment to the EPF

24 to remain at $300 million indefinitely. Many

1 of the lines change year to year. The ZBGA

2 line, just for reference, was at I think $9

3 million back in 2010. We boosted up to 15,

4 we pulled it back to 12. It's not a

5 reflection of our commitment to zoos and

6 botanical gardens, merely that we're moving

7 dollars around to achieve -- to support

8 various projects within other lines.

9 So I would expect this to change year

10 to year, but our commitment remains strong to

11 zoos.

12 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you. I

13 apologize, there was a typo on my sheet, so

14 it's not billion, it's million. I thought

15 that was wrong.

16 Within the Open Space account, there's

17 an additional $3.6 million for the oceans and

18 Great Lakes initiative. And why do we have

19 this increase in there?

20 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: So we're doing a

21 few things through oceans and Great Lakes.

22 The Governor announced last year a shellfish

23 initiative. We are launching a few new

24 shellfish sites within our coastal waters.

1 Some of the funds will be used to boost that

2 program.

3 We're also looking at combating HABs

4 across a wide region. Harmful algal blooms,

5 as you know, as I mentioned in my testimony,

6 has expanded as a problem here in New York,

7 partly because -- well, we're looking now,

8 but the climate may be making conditions

9 worse. Those funds from the oceans and Great

10 Lakes line will enable us to address these

11 problems at a series of waterways across the

12 state.

13 In addition, we have a 10-year Ocean

14 Action Plan that we set a few years ago,

15 about two years ago, the first 10-year Ocean

16 Action Plan. Some of the projects we've

17 identified under that plan need funding, and

18 that's what these funds would go towards.

19 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

20 And also I'd like to ask about the

21 climate change account. So there's a

22 $400,000 allocation for the Cornell Soil

23 Health Program that has been eliminated. And

24 with the current focus on climate resiliency

1 and adapting to extreme climate events, this

2 seems like it may not be the appropriate time

3 to eliminate this line. So what is the

4 justification for the decrease?

5 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I would

6 recommend humbly that you raise that with the

7 Ag & Markets commissioner, Commissioner Ball,

8 when he is up here. That's obviously an

9 important program, it has been an important

10 program for us, but he's more equipped to

11 answer the change.

12 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay. Thank you.

13 Just switching over to the food waste

14 section. And the Executive proposes language

15 to require high-volume food waste generators

16 to divert excess food to food banks, animal

17 feed operations, anaerobic digesters, or

18 other composting and organics recycling

19 facilities.

20 So we've heard a lot of feedback from

21 different businesses such as supermarkets,

22 restaurants, higher education institutions,

23 hotels, food processors, correctional

24 facilities, sports or entertainment venues,

1 hospitals and other healthcare facilities.

2 And this proposal would be implemented at the

3 same time the minimum wage is being

4 increased. And the Governor in his State of

5 the State proposed public hearings to examine

6 industries and evaluate the possibility of

7 ending minimum-wage credits in the state.

8 Do you have any concern that this may

9 put too much pressure on the food and

10 restaurant industry, especially in the

11 upstate regions of the state?

12 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, the

13 program that we proposed here, the organics

14 recycling program, has several very important

15 benefits. First, we throw away about 40

16 percent of our food. Right? That ends up

17 largely in landfills. Much of that can be

18 and should be diverted towards those who are

19 hungry.

20 When it ends up in landfills, when

21 food ends up in landfills, it not only takes

22 up space in a landfill, it is a powerful

23 greenhouse gas and can have negative impacts

24 on our environment.

1 The program we proposed, and have been

2 working on this now for several years, takes

3 into account the concerns we heard last year

4 from the regulated industry. We heard that

5 they want more flexibility in the program, we

6 heard that they had concerns about the cost

7 of the program up-front. So what we have put

8 forward is a three-year phase-in, with

9 investments up-front to help the industry get

10 off its feet.

11 I believe and I think we believe as an

12 agency that if this is done right -- I think

13 the legislation will do it correctly -- if

14 this is done right, we will end up saving

15 businesses money. NYSERDA has done a study

16 detailing the benefits of enhanced organics

17 collection, which demonstrates that once the

18 collection industry is up and running, they

19 can save as much -- the businesses can save

20 as much as half over their current tipping

21 fees.

22 Mind you, businesses like restaurants,

23 like supermarkets have to dispose of that

24 waste anyway. We want to do it in such a way

1 that their costs are less and there's a

2 benefit to the food that doesn't go eaten.

3 Part of that is through anaerobic digestion,

4 some of it can be diversion towards those in

5 need, those who are hungry, basically keeping

6 as much of it out of landfills -- and we've

7 proposed several programs to help offset some

8 of the up-front costs of that over the coming

9 years.

10 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: And I agree with

11 the concept to better manage food waste, I'm

12 just concerned about the mandates. And you

13 said this would be phased in over three

14 years?

15 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: It would be

16 phased in over three years. So the mandate

17 wouldn't come until 2021.

18 And we've also created a waiver

19 system. So an institution has to produce

20 greater than two tons per week of waste, so

21 that's the first criteria. The second

22 criteria is they need to be within 40 miles

23 of a collection facility. If they are not

24 within 40 miles of a collection facility, or

1 for whatever reason if the costs of getting

2 that food waste to the collection facility

3 are greater than the benefits to them, then

4 they can apply to us for a waiver, and we can

5 issue those year after year.

6 So we anticipate the program itself

7 ramping up over three years and then

8 providing fail-safes to businesses so that

9 they're not unduly burdened over that time.

10 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay, thank you.

11 Have you talked to other states?

12 Because in Vermont the Legislature there is

13 looking to roll back the 2020 organics

14 diversion mandate that that state put into

15 place. So are you talking to other states

16 about how they've experimented with this and

17 what the outcomes are?

18 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We have talked

19 to other states. We've talked to Vermont,

20 Massachusetts, and a few other states that

21 have mandates.

22 I'm going to have Julie answer some of

23 the work that we've done on our outreach.

24 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: So with

1 Vermont, Vermont is actually phasing in so

2 that it gets down -- it started at the

3 2-tons-per-week generator, and it's been

4 gradually ramping down to one ton per week,

5 to 500,000 pounds per week, until ultimately

6 we get to the individuals.

7 So we are not looking at that kind of

8 a phase-in the way Vermont is. So I'm not

9 aware that they're actually looking at

10 phasing out the 2 tons per week. That's been

11 moving along fairly well, from what I

12 understand from our discussions with them.

13 And certainly in Massachusetts we're

14 also seeing great progress on that front.

15 And folks from Massachusetts participated in

16 stakeholder meetings that we held through the

17 fall with folks, as we made some adjustments

18 and talked to stakeholders about how we would

19 be implementing some of these programs, to

20 provide assurances based on their experience

21 there.

22 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

23 I'll come back. But we've been joined

24 by Senator Savino and Senator Betty Little.

1 Assembly?

2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been

3 joined by our Ag chair, Assemblyman Magee, by

4 Assemblywoman Fahy, and Assemblyman Colton.

5 And to our EnCon chair, Assemblyman

6 Englebright, for some questions.

7 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

8 very much.

9 Good morning.

10 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Good morning.

11 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: I have a

12 couple of questions.

13 The Conservation Fund, your Executive

14 Budget shifts funding for Environmental

15 Conservation Officers out of the Conservation

16 Fund into the General Fund. Why? Why is

17 this necessary?

18 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, we want to

19 keep the Conservation Fund in a good

20 financial place.

21 Maybe, Jeff, do you want to handle

22 some of the concepts behind the shift?

23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER STEFANKO: Sure.

24 There's a structural deficit currently in the

1 Conservation Fund with revenues not equaling

2 expenditures and meeting the costs of the

3 fund, which increase every year due to

4 contractual increases, fringe benefit

5 increases every year.

6 So we're shifting costs over to make

7 sure the fund stays solvent.

8 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: I want

9 to emphasize it doesn't reflect any reduction

10 in our commitment to our Fish and Wildlife

11 Program. This happens, you know, reasonably

12 commonly.

13 In general, the expenses associated

14 with those programs always have exceeded what

15 the Conservation Fund supports. And it's

16 always been supported by other funds,

17 including federal funds and the General Fund.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Okay, thank

19 you.

20 Regarding your staffing, the staffing

21 level currently is 2,945 full-time

22 equivalents. Just a few years ago, the

23 number was closer to 4,000. Yet the

24 responsibilities of the agency increase each

1 year. So do you need more personnel?

2 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, you're

3 right that we took a cut in the late 2000s.

4 Since the Governor's been in office,

5 staffing levels have slightly increased at

6 DEC. I think if you look at where we are as

7 a state this year from our budgetary

8 perspective, with a nearly $4.5 billion

9 deficit, the fact that DEC is being given a

10 constant staffing level is encouraging. It's

11 a reflection of the Governor's commitment to

12 the environment, a reflection of the

13 Governor's commitment to my agency.

14 And I will tell you this. Since I've

15 been in this chair now for two and a half

16 years, I have felt our burdens increase.

17 Right? We have over this period experienced

18 an enormous awakening in New York,

19 nationally, on water infrastructure. We are

20 seeing the impacts of climate change. We now

21 have, in my view, a hostile administration in

22 Washington on environmental issues.

23 Everything that is -- from our core

24 mission to some of these expanding issues, we

1 have been able to meet the challenges that

2 have come to us. And I credit my staff for a

3 few things. First of all, their creativity,

4 their willingness to work hard, and their

5 willingness to break down barriers between

6 divisions, barriers between agencies. That

7 was a big thing when the Governor first took

8 office back in 2011, was breaking down the

9 silos between the agencies. And I think we

10 did that very well. What came next was

11 breaking down the barriers within agencies.

12 And based on the priorities I've set

13 for the agency, particularly on things like

14 drinking water, contaminated sites and the

15 like, we've found ways to become faster, more

16 efficient, more aggressive, leaning forward,

17 sending the message out that the cop is on

18 the beat, we're holding polluters

19 accountable.

20 And finding ways to work really well

21 with our partners at the Department of Health

22 and other agencies, frankly. We have a very

23 robust rapid response team on some of the

24 issues that arise in the papers that you read

1 about.

2 And we're becoming more efficient

3 internally. We're just -- we're using our IT

4 infrastructure smarter, we're finding ways to

5 lean processes.

6 So as an agency, I feel like we're in

7 a very strong position right now to meet any

8 challenge that comes to us, and I'm confident

9 we can carry that out.

10 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: One of the

11 concerns I have relating to staffing is a

12 very specific one. It's my understanding

13 that the Region 1 land specialist, who was so

14 very helpful to our citizens who had been

15 traumatized and had suffered so many property

16 damages due to Superstorm Sandy, as well as

17 our ongoing land acquisition needs in an area

18 where open space is diminishing dramatically,

19 that that position is about to become vacant.

20 So I would just ask you to make a note

21 of how important that is and attempt to

22 refill it rather than leave it vacant, in

23 order to maintain our maintenance of effort.

24 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Certainly will.

1 I completely agree with you, it's a very

2 important area to protect land down there,

3 not just for the sake of setting aside land,

4 but also for the resiliency purposes. So I

5 agree.

6 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: The

7 resiliency as well. Thank you for making

8 that notation.

9 One of the concerns I have regarding

10 the maintenance of effort is the spending

11 levels. Last year we were advertised as

12 having $300 million in the EPF; $217 million,

13 however, was proposed to be spent. That's in

14 the current fiscal year. And for next year,

15 again, the large type says: Look, see, we

16 still have $300 million committed -- but the

17 actual spending level is projected to be

18 $232 million.

19 Is this a reflection of your ability

20 to maintain effort with fewer and fewer

21 resources? What are we looking at? And is

22 this indeed related to staffing?

23 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Right. I --

24 just to be clear, we expect to spend more

1 than what we've spent so far. We obviously

2 have a few months left in the fiscal year, a

3 month and a half left in the fiscal year, so

4 we anticipate spending a great deal more than

5 the books currently reflect.

6 I would say that spending it in some

7 cases takes time. It is a contracting

8 process, particularly when we're making

9 grants. Pushing that money out the door is a

10 top priority for me, that those monies -- a

11 dollar in the EPF is $7 in the community.

12 The Governor has encouraged me to do all we

13 can to make those dollars quickly available.

14 I have no reason to believe that the pace of

15 spending won't continue to grow and meet the

16 $300 million expectation over the next few

17 years.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: We have a

19 concern -- you heard Senator Young speak to

20 the ZBGA reduction of $2.5 million that's in

21 this proposed budget. Land acquisition is

22 also projected to be cut $6 million, from $36

23 million last year. And I'm led to believe

24 they're not making land anymore, so this is a

1 serious concern.

2 And I just want to mention that on

3 both of these programs, the benefits are

4 dramatic and permanent. The ZBGA program is

5 the gateway or the portal for most of the

6 families and children in the state to learn

7 about the environment and to gain an

8 appreciation for wildlife in a structured

9 learning environment. So cutting that is to

10 essentially cut the constituency for your

11 agency.

12 So I would just caution you, as you

13 think about this and we go into negotiations,

14 that you're hearing this from both sides of

15 this podium. And it's a concern that I hope

16 you have a chance to reflect on as we perhaps

17 have an opportunity to modify and improve the

18 budget as it might look in its final form.

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Can I make a

20 point about land acquisition?

21 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Surely.

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Okay. So I want

23 to assure the body here that we remain

24 steadfastly committed to land acquisition.

1 We match up land acquisition to

2 dollars based on the Open Space Plan, which

3 has statewide focus. And we approach

4 projects in land acquisition based on what's

5 achievable in a given year and what we know

6 we can get through in terms of contracting,

7 OAG and comptroller review.

8 Those numbers will fluctuate year to

9 year, based on that plan. So $30 million

10 EPF, it may look like a cut -- we were at 35,

11 36 last year -- but we also have this year a

12 $10 million Pittman-Robertson money which we

13 intend to push out. And through the Clean

14 Water Infrastructure Act, last year we spent

15 $15 million on land acquisition. So we're

16 actually well over $50 million in terms of

17 land acquisition, which is much more than

18 what the EPF has provided to us over the last

19 few years.

20 I just want to reassure you that we

21 remain committed to it. There are different

22 mechanisms to get those dollars into

23 projects. But as a grand total, as a

24 reflection of the agency's commitment, that

1 remains very strong.

2 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

3 I have a concern that is a whole

4 ecosystem issue that meets with economic

5 concerns. Recently you received a letter

6 from three of our colleagues -- Senator

7 LaValle, Assemblyman Thiele, and

8 Assemblyman Palumbo sent you a letter asking

9 regarding the Oysterponds Shellfish Company

10 in Southold asking for an evaluation -- a

11 reevaluation of what appears to be a closure

12 of an area that has become enormously

13 productive.

14 On a whole ecosystem scale, our

15 shellfish of course is an initiative that the

16 Governor has rightly focused on and begun

17 making discretionary investments into. And

18 it just seems incongruous to me for a shadow

19 to fall over this very successful

20 shellfishing operation.

21 My three colleagues have pointed the

22 way toward a solution for this, which would

23 be to change the sampling station. I don't

24 want to get into the weeds on this here

1 today, but I do want to mention how important

2 I think their communication to you is and ask

3 that we have an opportunity to reevaluate and

4 perhaps discuss this further, not just you

5 and I but with the other members who signed

6 the letter. Would that be possible?

7 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Absolutely.

8 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Okay, thank

9 you.

10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

11 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: But I -- sorry,

12 I just wanted to make one point on that.

13 We're obviously -- in terms of the

14 water quality itself, we want the shellfish

15 industry to remain vibrant in New York State.

16 It needs to remain vibrant, obviously, in

17 areas where the water quality can support it.

18 And we have some concerns about the water

19 quality in Orient Harbor, being able to --

20 the testing being able to justify keeping the

21 beds open.

22 But I absolutely will continue to work

23 with you and your fellow members on it. We

24 want to find a solution to it. Sometimes

1 getting a new sampling point can take time.

2 The FDA requires a three-year period. But I

3 get your point, and I certainly have

4 understood and appreciate the position that

5 the oyster farmer's in.

6 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

7 very much.

8 Let me return the microphone to the

9 chair.

10 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

11 Senator O'Mara.

12 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you,

13 Chairwoman.

14 Good morning, Mr. Seggos,

15 Commissioner.

16 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Senator.

17 SENATOR O'MARA: Thanks for being

18 here. Appreciate your input on this. Got a

19 few issues I'd like to cover here.

20 First, the budget calls for many

21 deferrals of tax credits in a variety of

22 areas, and the environmental conservation

23 budget is not exempted from that. We're

24 proposing to delay tax credits on brownfield

1 projects, on electric vehicle charging

2 stations, just to name a couple.

3 How are we going to move forward with

4 these programs without these credits? I

5 think I have a great deal -- I know I have a

6 great deal of concern, and I think a lot of

7 my colleagues do, on the impact in general

8 with these deferrals to New York State's

9 credibility as a whole.

10 Whether it's to an economic

11 development project or brownfields cleanup

12 projects, we're hurting our credibility with

13 these deferrals. We did it years ago with

14 the Empire Zone program. It took a long time

15 to recover from that.

16 What's your reaction to that concern?

17 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, I

18 appreciate your input on that.

19 So we obviously have to find a way to

20 balance a significant budget. We have a

21 budget deficit. And the thought on the

22 deferrals is while this is an issue at Tax &

23 Finance, not specifically at DEC, it

24 obviously touches an important DEC program.

1 The deferrals are meant to be

2 short-term in nature. Over a certain

3 threshold, the tax credits that are

4 attainable by the developer will be deferred

5 for three years.

6 The brownfields tax credit pool, as a

7 percentage of the total pot of deferments, is

8 about 15 percent, so it is a significant

9 number. And we have to find ways to reduce

10 spending over these three years.

11 I hear your point. We will ensure

12 that we share that with Tax & Finance and the

13 Division of Budget. But I am -- I'm not in

14 any way concerned that the program itself is

15 somehow weakened. We've done, thanks to your

16 help and the help of this body, great work in

17 reauthorizing the brownfields tax credit

18 program. That's been running very

19 successfully. The reforms have worked, I

20 believe they are working. We're seeing

21 better numbers out of that. We certainly

22 will continue that work on our end and look

23 to address any of the concerns that the

24 Legislature has on that.

1 SENATOR O'MARA: So a project, a

2 current brownfield project that's underway

3 right now, the developer is going to have to

4 wait three years to get their tax credits

5 under this proposal, correct?

6 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Only over the $2

7 million. If they -- the $2 million

8 threshold. So if there are tax credits over

9 $2 million, then they'd have to wait for

10 three years for those particular credits.

11 Everything under $2 million is --

12 SENATOR O'MARA: After that three

13 years, when will they be paid out?

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: They're paid out

15 over I believe it's the course of a two or

16 three-year period, right?

17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER TIGHE: A

18 three-year period.

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Yeah, a

20 three-year period. So it's a three-year wait

21 and then a three-year payout. Over

22 $2 million.

23 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: And

24 that's per taxpayer. Which oftentimes with

1 the brownfields program, it's LLCs who are

2 participating, so it may not be an individual

3 corporation, but it would be a number of

4 taxpayers who that would be divided amongst.

5 It's $2 million per taxpayer, is my

6 understanding.

7 SENATOR O'MARA: That's the threshold,

8 $2 million per taxpayer? So if there's

9 multiple individuals in an LLC --

10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER TIGHE: I believe

11 so.

12 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: That's right, I

13 think so, yes.

14 SENATOR O'MARA: If there's 10

15 individuals, it's a $20 million threshold?

16 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: I

17 believe so. But we'd have to confirm that

18 with Tax & Finance.

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We'll talk to

20 Tax & Finance for that.

21 SENATOR O'MARA: Yeah, could you get

22 back to me on that, please?

23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER TIGHE: Yeah.

24 SENATOR O'MARA: With regards to the

1 electric vehicle chargers, the state put in a

2 pretty aggressive program to install 2,000

3 chargers by 2020. We had a goal in the state

4 to have 3,000 installed by the beginning of

5 this year. It was 1300 chargers short,

6 nearly 50 percent short.

7 How do we achieve our goals in this

8 important area by deferring these credits

9 that will further delay implementation of

10 these charging stations?

11 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Senator, I might

12 ask you to raise that with NYSERDA. I am not

13 familiar with the details on that particular

14 deferral.

15 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. I will do

16 that.

17 The next area I'd like to get into is

18 the harmful algal blooms and the decision by

19 the department and the administration to

20 choose 12 lakes. Obviously, when you choose

21 12 lakes out of the many lakes that we have,

22 there are many more lakes that are

23 disgruntled and unhappy about not being

24 chosen.

1 Being a representative from the

2 Finger Lakes, you know, we're very concerned

3 about the work that's been ongoing by groups

4 around every one of the lakes in regard to

5 this. Cayuga Lake was chosen; Seneca Lake,

6 Keuka Lake, Canandaigua Lake were not chosen.

7 We had a conference on this a week ago,

8 myself with Julie and Venetia from the

9 Governor's office.

10 But I'm still unclear on how that

11 selection process went. Why was one body of

12 water chosen over another? Just Seneca as an

13 example, the largest of the Finger Lakes,

14 has -- you know, Seneca Lake Pure Waters

15 Association has done tremendous work in this

16 regard. There's a Finger Lakes Regional

17 Watershed Alliance. There's a Finger Lakes

18 Institute. There's a Federation of Lake

19 Associations.

20 You know, why was Seneca Lake left off

21 of this?

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, I want to

23 disabuse you of the premise that Seneca Lake

24 was left off the radar screen. Okay?

1 The Governor came up with this very

2 ambitious plan to dedicate enhanced resources

3 to 12 priority water bodies. And what we

4 tried to do in selecting these 12 water

5 bodies was look regionally and try to pick 12

6 that are in some way, shape or form different

7 from one another. Because providing a

8 long-term solution to those 12 lakes

9 inherently requires us to go out and do

10 science -- enhanced testing of the lakes,

11 watershed characterization -- and develop

12 almost a type of lake with the types of

13 problems that impact it and determine how

14 those kinds of problems are creating blooms

15 on the lake.

16 Every single lake we have found --

17 there's about 150 lakes in New York State --

18 lakes and rivers that have been impacted by

19 algal blooms, they're all different in a way.

20 There's some different causes. Some are in

21 nutrient-rich watersheds. Some have been

22 whacked by massive storms, like last summer

23 on Skaneateles Lake. Several lakes, we would

24 fear for them becoming impacted by HABs, like

1 Lake George.

2 So we try to take representative

3 samples of types of lakes, apply enhanced

4 science, and do some sort of no-regrets

5 spending on those lakes to fix problems,

6 while at the same -- and that's the

7 $65 million proposal -- while at the same

8 time remaining as aggressive as we have been

9 on all of the other lakes that have had

10 problems, including, in particular, the

11 Finger Lakes, the ones you mentioned.

12 We had created a couple of years ago,

13 right after I started, the Finger Lakes Water

14 Hub, which we launched specifically because

15 of the HABs problem, that looks at all of the

16 Finger Lakes all at once. We have enhanced

17 monitoring now going on in all the Finger

18 Lakes as a result of that. We're boosting

19 monitoring stations. And we're helping

20 community groups on those lakes. You

21 mentioned Seneca Lake Pure Waters

22 Association. There are other community

23 groups on other lakes, various land trusts.

24 We're helping them get to the point of

1 developing long-term plans, if long-term

2 plans don't exist, and also compete for

3 funding.

4 The Clean Water Infrastructure Act

5 that you all helped us enact last year has

6 given us resources that we never had. We've

7 had the EPF, which has been very helpful.

8 The Clean Water Infrastructure Act on the

9 land acquisition line is enabling us to spend

10 money all across the state on waterways that

11 are impacted, like the ones you mentioned.

12 So I fully expect that work to

13 continue aggressively. We will not be taking

14 our eyes off the ball on Seneca Lake or Keuka

15 or any of the other ones that are impacted.

16 And if something happens in those lakes, we

17 will parachute in and attempt to fix the

18 problems.

19 And I will say that lakes that are

20 impacted by HABs are probably going to be in

21 a very good place to compete for the state

22 funding that we have available. But we'll

23 continue to work with your office on anything

24 that comes up.

1 SENATOR O'MARA: What was the source

2 of that 65 million?

3 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: It's a

4 combination of EPF and Clean Water

5 Infrastructure Act funding.

6 SENATOR O'MARA: And so the lakes

7 that -- well, before I get to that, the

8 12 lakes that you're studying now, what's

9 your timeline on process? When do you think

10 you're going to be through this -- at least

11 the planning stage and going to implement

12 things and hopefully see some results of

13 what's worked and what hasn't?

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: It's funny you

15 mention that. Right now the Governor is in

16 New Paltz convening a HAB summit that I would

17 otherwise be at but for today's fun here in

18 Albany.

19 SENATOR O'MARA: You'd rather be

20 there.

21 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I would much

22 rather be there, of course.

23 (Laughter.)

24 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: He of

1 course would rather be here before you,

2 Senator.

3 (Laughter.)

4 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We're doing four

5 HAB summits in a very short period of time.

6 So the first one today, the next one is in

7 Syracuse focusing on -- that's the 5th or

8 6th, I believe, focusing on the Finger Lakes,

9 then we go west, Western New York, and then

10 North Country.

11 All of those summits are designed to

12 bring actual experts to the table, not just

13 talk but experts, to give us their

14 perspectives on how to fix problems --

15 understanding that each lake is different,

16 how do you fix the lake. We'll convene those

17 summits, get expert reports done and actually

18 projects underway hopefully this year, this

19 summer. So it's designed to be a fast

20 process, and we want to be ready for the

21 summer's HABs problems.

22 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. Thank you.

23 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

24 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

1 Assembly?

2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman

3 Lifton.

4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Thank you very

5 much.

6 Good morning, Mr. Seggos.

7 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Good morning.

8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Do I ask you or

9 NYSERDA about tracking progress on climate

10 goals?

11 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Tracking

12 progress on our emissions targets? I would

13 encourage you to talk to NYSERDA about that.

14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Okay, I will do

15 that.

16 Let me pick up quickly on the HAB

17 issue. I guess we're going to have to decide

18 on pronunciation. You're saying HABs; out in

19 the boonies out where I live, we're saying

20 H-A-Bs. We're going to have to figure that

21 one out.

22 So you've answered some of my

23 questions. The proposal said that there will

24 be half a million dollars for the study of

1 each lake. Obviously, some lakes are very,

2 very large, some are smaller. Some have very

3 complex, huge watersheds and so on.

4 So presumably, having some set amount

5 is not going to really work in terms of --

6 and I presume some lakes already have data.

7 I'm told some lakes, they have a lot of data

8 because of these groups that have been doing

9 work and monitoring soil and water and other

10 things, and some have very little. So how is

11 that money actually going to go in terms of

12 studying -- is it going to be -- it doesn't

13 make sense to me to have half a million

14 dollars for each lake.

15 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: It's up to half

16 a million dollars for each lake.

17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Okay.

18 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I think you're

19 right to observe some lakes are better

20 positioned than others. We've done enormous

21 testing on some of the Finger Lakes; some of

22 that data has been generated for years.

23 There are parts of Lake Champlain where we

24 see problems where there's not as good an

1 understanding of causes where we might need

2 to spend more money. We obviously wouldn't

3 spend $500,000 on the entire Lake Champlain.

4 But those monies are designed to be

5 available quickly. The testing, sampling and

6 planning being done quickly, gathering

7 information as quickly as possible, so that

8 we have a good scientific picture of the root

9 causes of problems on these lakes.

10 Again, as you and I have spoken about,

11 there may be -- some of the reasons may range

12 from ag to failing septic systems, failing

13 wastewater treatment plants, and stormwater

14 problems. And some of the storms that,

15 again, we saw last summer -- that one storm

16 that came through on the July 4th weekend

17 that came through the Mohawk Valley probably

18 was the cause for the huge bloom we saw on

19 Skaneateles Lake, which had never seen a

20 bloom like this.

21 So again, it's, you know, getting the

22 science in the right place, doing the correct

23 testing up-front if necessary, and ultimately

24 having that inform the ultimate plan itself.

1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Everyone seems

2 to agree that it's a very complicated

3 problem.

4 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: It is.

5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: And it's been

6 sort of festering and growing every year. So

7 I think we need to be very careful to make

8 sure we get these studies right, maybe not

9 rush that process, but make sure we do it

10 very well to make sure, as we attack these

11 problems, that we're doing it in the right

12 way and not throwing good money after bad.

13 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Agreed.

14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: I'm assuming,

15 too, that $65 million is just for a shot at

16 this; this is going to be a much bigger

17 problem over time. Is that a multiyear

18 funding amount? Are we going to be looking

19 at this every year in terms of new funding

20 for this?

21 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, we -- we

22 certainly anticipate this first year I'd say

23 maybe $11 million of it going towards science

24 and the bulk of it towards these projects

1 that are designed to fix some of the

2 problems. That's year one.

3 Beyond year one, the Governor has made

4 a commitment through the EPF to keep the EPF

5 at $300 million. We now have a multiyear

6 commitment on the Clean Water Infrastructure

7 Act. Again, those buckets of money are going

8 to be the tools with which we fix the

9 problems that we see.

10 So I think you will see an awareness

11 this year, hopefully unlike we've had in the

12 past, and a sense of how we can fix problems,

13 and an ability to replicate that elsewhere.

14 So a -- Skaneateles Lake is similar to X lake

15 over here, so we have effectively a similar

16 model that we can employ.

17 And those funds being available in

18 future years will -- you know, we'll have

19 next year a discussion about what the next

20 big proposal is, but I expect that the EPF

21 and Clean Water Infrastructure Act are going

22 to be held constant, and I think those will

23 be sources of funds to fix problems.

24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Another thing I

1 read in the proposal on HABs is that maybe

2 there's an intention to try to do remedies

3 through voluntary best practices. I think

4 there's some concern. Do we have reason to

5 think that voluntary best practices really

6 work and are successful, or are we going to

7 need law and regulation to try to tackle some

8 of these issues.

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, all

10 options are on the table for us on this.

11 Creating new laws, new regulations would take

12 time. Obviously, talking about new laws, we

13 would need to work with you on that, figure

14 out what the needs are.

15 I mean, voluntary compliance, in my

16 view, is powerful. I think farmers -- just

17 taking farmers for an example -- want to do

18 right by the environment.

19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: It hasn't been

20 working so well so far in terms of soil and

21 water, trying to get farmers to change their

22 habits around --

23 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, I think

24 the resources, frankly, that we've given them

1 -- sorry.

2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: I'm sorry.

3 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: The resources

4 we've given them over the last few years

5 through the EPF, with the Clean Water

6 Infrastructure Act, helping to reduce runoff,

7 doing land acquisition, buffer streams,

8 stream buffer areas --

9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: We think that's

10 working? We think that's working?

11 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I believe it is

12 going to work. This is just year one of the

13 Clean Water Infrastructure Act program.

14 It's going to take time. And we want them to

15 come into the system. We want them to see

16 the reasons for entering the system, but also

17 to see that there are funds available for the

18 upkeep of their properties.

19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON: Thank you,

20 Commissioner.

21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

22 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

23 Senator Kaminsky.

24 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: And if I could

1 just clarify one thing, just so it's not

2 lost. The $55 million that we're talking

3 about for projects is not just the 12 water

4 bodies that we're working on, it's all of the

5 water bodies that are impacted by HABs.

6 Sorry. Senator?

7 SENATOR O'MARA: Could you repeat that

8 again?

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: The $55 million

10 that we're proposing for the HABs initiative

11 is not just for the 12 water bodies that are

12 part of this priority program. We're going

13 to spend money, obviously, on studying those

14 12 water bodies up-front. But the ultimate

15 implementation money, $55 million, is

16 available to HABs-impacted waterways.

17 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

18 Senator Kaminsky.

19 SENATOR KAMINSKY: Thank you.

20 Good morning, Commissioner.

21 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Senator.

22 SENATOR KAMINSKY: Some very

23 interesting news on the 1,4-dioxane front in

24 the last day.

1 Really, first of all, overall, very

2 pleased with how the state has jumped on this

3 problem. I think we see nationwide what

4 happens when contaminants go ignored for far

5 too long. And I certainly think relying on

6 Washington is not an option here.

7 But there are some challenges posed as

8 well. I just want to show you an article on

9 Page A2 of Newsday today that I'm holding up,

10 it talks about billions of dollars of funding

11 needed in order to get the proper technology

12 where it should go.

13 So I'm happy we're in a place where

14 we're going to be setting maximum limits.

15 I'm happy we're getting to a place where we

16 have the technology. But I want to know your

17 thoughts on how we are able to implement

18 this, where the funding may come from, and

19 whether there's a plan to triage it or roll

20 it out in a manner that you think is going to

21 be most efficacious.

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Senator, the

23 Drinking Water Council met yesterday. You're

24 referencing the meeting they had when they

1 discussed a range of possible MCLs for

2 1,4-dioxane. They didn't set the MCL; that

3 will come shortly. As I understand, we will

4 be recommending to the health commissioner a

5 particular level.

6 The good thing about the council that

7 it involves not just state officials but, in

8 particular, some of the water providers and

9 local officials down in Long Island and

10 elsewhere.

11 We don't know where we're going to be

12 when they come out with a number, but we know

13 that there are drinking water sources that we

14 would want to protect with this new enhanced

15 technology. And you're referencing some of

16 the potential costs of that. I don't know

17 where we will be on it. We'll be there --

18 probably in the next couple of months, we'll

19 see a recommended level. And then we're

20 going to have to have a discussion about how

21 we get to installing these AOP systems in

22 communities where they are needed.

23 Thankfully, it looks like the number

24 of sites that are potentially drinking water

1 sites that are potentially impacted may be

2 lower. But until the number is set, we're

3 not going to know what the full universe is.

4 SENATOR KAMINSKY: Okay. Well, I look

5 forward to continuing that conversation. I

6 know Senator Phillips and I have worked

7 really hard on this issue and certainly think

8 this would be a very good use of state

9 funding down the road, as opposed to having

10 ratepayers have to really be hit with this.

11 Costs on Long Island, of course, are

12 extremely high, and water has been pretty

13 controversial this year in light of what

14 people have been paying. So I look forward

15 to that conversation.

16 I want to shift over to Bay Park,

17 another area that I'm really glad the

18 administration is focused on. It's critical

19 for the Western Bays. And I'd like to know

20 where we are and what else has to happen in

21 order to get Bay Park over the finish line

22 and get Long Beach attached to it.

23 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, we were at

24 that great event back in I think it was

1 December down on Long Island where the

2 Governor announced that we had signed a

3 consent order with Nassau County for them to

4 modernize their system by effectively

5 connecting an outfall to an existing plant,

6 the Cedar Creek plant.

7 We're working overtime now with Nassau

8 County officials to develop what is a

9 somewhat complicated plan of construction

10 over the next couple of years, how we get

11 wastewater through rights-of-ways, through

12 the existing tunnel and over to the Cedar

13 Creek outfall. It's an engineering

14 challenge.

15 We have the county on the hook now for

16 it. We have county funding, we've got state

17 funding, we have some federal funding as

18 well. I expect this is going to absorb an

19 enormous amount of our time over the coming

20 years as we get this done, but it will be a

21 game-changer in Long Island for water

22 quality.

23 SENATOR KAMINSKY: Okay. And you're

24 committed to seeing the funding through to

1 get the project done.

2 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Absolutely, yes.

3 SENATOR KAMINSKY: Well, I look

4 forward to the day I can send my sewage into

5 Senator Brooks's district, so I appreciate

6 it.

7 (Laughter.)

8 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: He looks happy.

9 SENATOR BROOKS: It's nice to get a

10 gift from him every once in a while.

11 (Laughter.)

12 SENATOR KAMINSKY: I too would like to

13 add my voice to Senator O'Mara's, Chairman

14 O'Mara's, on the brownfield credit issue.

15 You know, I think I feel like we're changing

16 the rules mid-game on a lot of people who

17 have signed up to participate in this worthy

18 program. I think certain projects -- I've

19 heard from developers personally who are

20 going to be in jeopardy day one. So I'd like

21 for us to consider how we can make up for the

22 deficit without endangering any of those

23 projects or the existing program. And I hope

24 you can take a look at that.

1 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you. I

2 will.

3 SENATOR KAMINSKY: Thank you.

4 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

6 Assemblywoman Woerner.

7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you,

8 Ms. Chairman.

9 And thank you, Commissioner. I have

10 just a couple of questions.

11 So first I want to thank you for your

12 leadership on the PCB cleanup.

13 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: It's great.

15 The testing that you all did and the

16 leadership you're showing on really holding

17 GE's feet to the fire is terrific, and I

18 appreciate that.

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

20 Likewise. Thank you.

21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you.

22 With respect to the diversion of food

23 scraps to landfills in 2021, one of the

24 challenges we have with digesters is that

1 NYSERDA's incentives have expired for the

2 development of additional digesters upstate,

3 and the PSC has up to this point been not

4 willing to set an economic rate for the power

5 produced by the digesters. And from your

6 earlier remarks, it's clear that you

7 recognize that digesters are a linchpin

8 technology in the success of this program.

9 So I'm just wondering if you have been

10 in conversations with NYSERDA and the PSC

11 about rectifying the energy side of this

12 equation to make sure that this program is

13 successful.

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We have been in

15 conversations with our sister agencies on

16 this. We do see an important role for

17 digesters to play, ultimately not just with

18 their food waste but many other issues

19 throughout the state on farms.

20 So we'll be working with them on this.

21 And there are certain things that we can do

22 as well at the DEC to facilitate digesters.

23 We've proposed some changes through SEQRA to

24 facilitate the creation of projects that may

1 reduce some of the burden of getting projects

2 through the pipeline.

3 At the same time, we're sensitive to

4 the environmental justice populations who

5 don't want digesters at sewage plants,

6 because that means potentially more trucks

7 through streets, city streets. So it's a bit

8 of a difficult balance.

9 On the SEQRA side, we see a -- the

10 State Environmental Quality Review Act,

11 SEQRA, we see an opportunity to get something

12 done through that. But we'll be talking to

13 NYSERDA and DPS, certainly.

14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Great. Thank

15 you very much.

16 The 480-a change in the forestry

17 regulations, can you articulate a little bit

18 more about how those changes that have been

19 proposed will provide for the small private

20 landowner that does their own, you know,

21 modest amount of forestry and logging?

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Sure. And I'll

23 have Julie pinch-hit for me as well. This is

24 one of her babies.

1 So we've been doing stakeholder

2 outreach on this for the better part of three

3 or maybe four years, talking to the universe

4 of people and individuals that would be

5 impacted by changes in forest tax credit law.

6 A significant number, millions and millions

7 of acres of land -- I think it's like 19

8 million acres of land -- is held --

9 forestland is held in private hands. And

10 there are extraordinary climate benefits to

11 well-managed forests.

12 We want to keep the current tax credit

13 program, make sure that it remains

14 attractive, but also move to the next phase

15 where it can become slightly more efficient

16 but also more attractive to the landowners

17 themselves by reducing the burdens on them.

18 This is currently a stumpage tax

19 that's paid out, a 6 percent stumpage tax.

20 We would propose to eliminate that. We would

21 propose to give landowners the opportunity --

22 who may not have large tracts of land -- drop

23 it from 50 acres currently down to 25. That

24 would give more participants the chance to

1 come into the program, and also give credit

2 where credit is due to open space.

3 Some of the land, forest and open

4 space land on certain tracts, we frankly

5 would want to keep both of those types of

6 habitats vibrant on land, on properties. And

7 up to 50 percent of a landowner's

8 participation could be through open space

9 preservation.

10 So it's an important -- it would be an

11 important change. The benefits to the

12 landowners would be significant, because

13 you're increasing the ability for the

14 landowner to, from a forest certified

15 perspective, sustainable harvestry, bringing

16 that wood off the land while at the same time

17 keeping local governments whole. That would

18 be something we would work on, because this

19 wouldn't take effect until next year. Local

20 governments we would seek to make whole

21 through our budget next year.

22 Julie, I want to give her credit for

23 this. Julie and my entire team, and

24 certainly all the stakeholders, have done an

1 enormous job tackling this somewhat complex

2 but really attractive program. And we've

3 been very optimistic about its chances of

4 succeeding here in New York based on some of

5 the feedback we've gotten.

6 Want to add anything, Julie?

7 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: I think

8 one of the ideas which form the new 480-b, as

9 the program is called, is allowing a straight

10 certification program, which we recognize

11 would now probably be the larger forest

12 owners, your Lyme types of organizations.

13 And we would recognize all the work they're

14 doing to have their land certified by

15 providing them with a continued large credit

16 of 70 percent.

17 But we would also make a program

18 that's less burdensome than 480-a is now,

19 which requires very proscribed cutting

20 associated with that by providing a

21 40 percent reduction in property taxes, but

22 also offering different avenues for them to

23 enter the program. You know, it's limited to

24 a minimum of 10 acres of work that would need

1 to be done on the property, whether that's a

2 timber cut -- which we think would probably

3 be the most attractive way in, it's the only

4 practice that we allow that would make money

5 for the property owner. Other things could

6 be wetlands restoration or habitat management

7 or a thinning of a property, which you need

8 to do to maintain a healthy forest.

9 So we've provided a bunch of different

10 avenues for them to come in and make it

11 easier. We're also offering an off-ramp for

12 people who don't want to be in 480 anymore,

13 because we know that that's one of the

14 criticisms of the program. We want to help

15 promote it.

16 We've coupled that -- I think one of

17 the things that we're really trying to do is

18 we're coupling that with two proposed grant

19 programs. Both are proposed to be funded by

20 the Environmental Protection Fund, one to

21 support forestry management practices on

22 property which are similar to a federal EQIP

23 program, which in the State of New York

24 almost all of those funds go to the

1 agricultural community, which will help

2 really provide the support for the landowners

3 to implement those practices.

4 The other would also be to support

5 forestry by communities. The State of

6 New York has a very active timber management

7 program on our unconstitutionally protected

8 lands, I guess our lands not protected by the

9 constitution. And, you know, we'd like to

10 see that help support local governments who

11 want to do something similar, where you can

12 have a sustainable timber harvest of your

13 property that will help provide jobs for the

14 forest products industry while maintaining

15 forestland.

16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Great. Thank

17 you very much.

18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

19 Senate?

20 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you. Our

21 next speaker is Senator Pamela Helming.

22 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you,

23 Senator Young.

24 Commissioner, thank you so much for

1 being here today.

2 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Senator, thank

3 you.

4 SENATOR HELMING: The first thing I

5 want to say is thank you to your office,

6 including Julie, for spending a considerable

7 amount of time with me during the past year.

8 Most of our conversations, our meetings have

9 centered around three issues in the Finger

10 Lakes region. One is solid waste management,

11 two is protection of our very precious lakes,

12 and the third has to do with Lake Ontario and

13 the implementation of Plan 2014 and the

14 subsequent flooding that occurred.

15 So I just wanted to start by quickly

16 going back to the harmful algal blooms. It

17 seems that every time I do have a

18 conversations with representatives from the

19 DEC, the information changes slightly, so I

20 just want to confirm.

21 There's $65 million that's been set

22 aside for this most recent program,

23 $10 million of that being used to host these

24 four listening sessions, whatever you want to

1 call them, steering committee meetings, the

2 hiring of the experts. Is that correct?

3 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Just to be

4 clear, it's not $10 million for the summits,

5 it's $10 million for any science or planning

6 that's needed on all those lakes.

7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER TIGHE: And that

8 actually includes the pilot programs that

9 will be associated with this, which are both

10 for treatment system treatments that can be

11 done as well as monitoring. And that

12 includes the, quote, $500,000 a lake that's

13 been identified associated with each of those

14 action plans.

15 SENATOR HELMING: Okay, thanks for

16 that clarification. So that leaves

17 $55 million. And my understanding from your

18 recent testimony is that that money will be

19 available through grants to any and all

20 lakes. Is that correct?

21 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Impacted by

22 HABs.

23 SENATOR HELMING: Impacted by HABs.

24 But my question is, we now have

1 identified 12 priority lakes. Lakes like

2 Canandaigua Lake, Seneca Lake and Keuka Lake

3 that aren't on those priority lists, will

4 they score the same? What is your plan for

5 ranking the grant applications? Will

6 priority lakes be given preference over the

7 other lakes?

8 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, we

9 certainly want to find a way to give added

10 priority to the lakes that are impacted by

11 HABs. I think we will be able to pull it

12 off. We're working on the language right now

13 that would pass muster with the comptroller's

14 and AG's reviews of that program, make sure

15 that it comports with state law.

16 But for us, it is a fairly

17 straightforward objective. We need to get

18 money to fix the problem, the Governor has

19 made that very clear, and we need to make

20 that available as widely as possible.

21 Again, going back to what I had

22 mentioned earlier, we have -- in an almost

23 uncoordinated way over the last few years, we

24 have been spending money on HABs problems

1 through grant applications that come in,

2 projects that we undertake, Ag & Markets

3 spending money on farms, EFC funding, various

4 municipal wastewater upgrades, stormwater

5 upgrades. So it was all, in effect, being

6 done.

7 The purpose of the initiative now is

8 to harness all of that effort into one place

9 and give priority -- on the HAB side, give

10 priority to lakes that have problems

11 currently.

12 SENATOR HELMING: So for instance,

13 Seneca Lake, I think they've had more

14 documented harmful algal blooms, the toxic

15 algal blooms, than any other lake. So if

16 they apply for a grant, are they considered a

17 priority because they have HABs? Or are they

18 not -- will they not be given --

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, they would

20 be. I mean, they would be considered a

21 priority lake. If there's a HAB that's

22 impacting recreation or water quality,

23 drinking water quality -- it would need to be

24 those two things, not a theoretical problem

1 on a lake that isn't, you know, used by a

2 recreational group or a source of drinking

3 water. And those would be the criteria that

4 we think would help the lake score well.

5 Seneca Lake is obviously not only a

6 critical Finger Lake from a tourism

7 perspective, but is also a source of drinking

8 water. So I would think that would score

9 well.

10 SENATOR HELMING: Absolutely. And

11 that sets up my comment about my frustration

12 that Keuka Lake, Canandaigua Lake and Seneca

13 Lake were left off that priority list of 12.

14 If you rank -- well, I've spoken to

15 your office on numerous occasions about how

16 the lakes were selected and ranked. And in

17 every instance, it's my feeling that

18 especially Canandaigua and Seneca Lake, that

19 do provide drinking water to hundreds of

20 thousands of people, are the economic drivers

21 of those communities, that they should have

22 absolutely, without question, been included

23 in the 12 priority lakes.

24 I just want to go quickly to these

1 listening sessions that are being conducted

2 too. I think it would have been beneficial

3 to all if the meetings were open to the

4 public. That's the morning portion, where

5 the discussions will occur with the experts.

6 By closing out, by shutting out the public

7 and other experts who'd like to be there just

8 to listen in, I think that is a detriment to

9 finding solutions or involving the public.

10 And when we're spending taxpayers'

11 dollars, it's just my general feeling that we

12 should be more transparent and these meetings

13 should be open to everyone.

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Okay, just so

15 you -- obviously there's a morning and

16 evening session. The concept of the morning

17 session is to get expert testimony. For lack

18 of a better word, it's a bit wonkier than the

19 average meeting, discussing loadings and more

20 the scientific, complicated issues.

21 But we wanted to have a public

22 component also, and that is the evening

23 session. But I take your point.

24 SENATOR HELMING: So just along those

1 lines, then, Senator O'Mara mentioned several

2 organizations specific just to Seneca Lake

3 that have experts on them that aren't invited

4 or cannot participate or be a listener, just

5 sit in the audience and listen to those

6 discussions. They could learn something from

7 those discussions and take them back to their

8 organizations. So that's a miss. That's a

9 miss, and that's my opinion on that.

10 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: I think

11 there may be some -- I mean, I'm not sure

12 about Seneca Pure Waters, but I definitely

13 know the Finger Lakes Institute and some of

14 these other organizations that were mentioned

15 have been invited, and some are in fact on

16 the steering committees.

17 So there are steering committees

18 associated with each individual lake. And

19 then on top of that, we've invited other

20 people to participate in these sessions where

21 there's going to be working groups where they

22 really sort of get into the meat and sort of

23 figure out how to best to proceed as they

24 develop those action plans. And then on top

1 of that, we have the open-to-the-public

2 session that the commissioner mentioned.

3 So there are -- I mean, to my

4 understanding, and I've definitely looked at

5 this, the Finger Lakes Institute, definitely

6 invited. If there's other organizations you

7 want us to make sure are invited to some of

8 these sessions, since obviously the only one

9 we've actually held is happening right now in

10 New Paltz, we would be happy to look at

11 those.

12 SENATOR HELMING: And Julie, you and I

13 have had this discussion. I think that those

14 meetings should be open to whoever would like

15 to attend. I don't think the public should

16 be limited to 6 to 8 p.m. at night.

17 But moving on from there and on to

18 solid waste management in the Finger Lakes

19 region. I mean, we all agree, we're all on

20 the same page that it is critically important

21 that we protect our natural resources,

22 especially our water bodies.

23 In my Senate district, are you aware

24 of the waste incinerator that's been proposed

1 for Romulus, New York?

2 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I am aware of

3 the proposal, yes. We have not received an

4 application on that, though.

5 SENATOR HELMING: But have you had

6 meetings with the representatives from the

7 incinerator?

8 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I have not. My

9 office may have. Typically when we get these

10 kinds of applications coming our way, there's

11 a preapplication meeting. And I know that

12 there was a large community hearing, if you

13 will, down in the Romulus area on this.

14 SENATOR HELMING: Right. So the

15 application was submitted locally. It's

16 since been pulled and now has gone to

17 Article 10. And my question is now that the

18 application will be reviewed under the

19 Article 10 requirements, does that negate the

20 need for a solid waste management permit?

21 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I would have to

22 get back to you with an answer on that. I --

23 the interplay between Article 10 and --

24 typically, you know, years ago this would

1 have been a SEQRA process. Now that it's an

2 energy-generating station, we'd have to

3 determine -- I believe DEC's permits would

4 still remain in effect, we would still have

5 to issue permits, to a degree.

6 But we'll get back to you with an

7 answer on that.

8 SENATOR HELMING: Okay. I have

9 received responses from your office, but it's

10 that no, there are no solid waste management

11 permits that would be required. SEQRA will

12 not be required; that's a whole other

13 process. Which is my concern. Again --

14 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: But to

15 clarify, to clarify, the general requirements

16 associated with the permits that DEC issues

17 normally, as an individual permit, are

18 generally incorporated into Article 10.

19 So for example, if there are permits

20 associated -- you know, if there are air

21 permit requirements associated with that,

22 those would be folded into the Article 10

23 component, generally speaking, unless there's

24 a federal permit associated with that. But

1 we can confirm on all of those particular

2 details.

3 SENATOR HELMING: Okay.

4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER TIGHE: But

5 generally speaking, that's handled within the

6 Article 10 process.

7 SENATOR HELMING: And I think it is

8 critically important that the DEC be involved

9 every step of the way. This has the

10 potential to have a huge negative impact on

11 our lakes. This proposal, the waste

12 incinerator is proposed to be 3.5 miles from

13 Seneca Lake.

14 And also, something that I found

15 interesting was that the largest source of

16 greenhouse gases, what I heard from your

17 testimony, Commissioner, comes from

18 transportation.

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Correct.

20 SENATOR HELMING: This waste

21 incinerator project alone is proposing an

22 additional 260 trucks on the road. So think

23 of the emissions from that. And it's not

24 solving a local issue. We have two landfills

1 within less than 20 miles of this proposed

2 incinerator, so we don't have a need locally

3 for the incinerator. The waste is going to

4 be trucked in from downstate, from out of

5 state. It's -- it has -- it's just wrong.

6 We take more than our fair share of waste in

7 the Finger Lakes area. We don't need a waste

8 incinerator program.

9 But one of the questions I have for

10 you is, does the DEC consider the energy

11 generated from waste incinerators clean

12 energy?

13 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Do we consider

14 the energy generated at waste incinerators

15 clean energy?

16 SENATOR HELMING: Mm-hmm.

17 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Senator, I -- I

18 mean, it's a theoretical question. What's

19 clean energy, in my mind, is windmills, solar

20 power, hydro. I mean, those are the big

21 categories. Waste energy, in my mind, is --

22 you know, is an older technology.

23 We see lots of proposals that come to

24 us, I'm aware of many types of technologies

1 that they claim to be renewable. My biggest

2 concerns, whenever I hear of a project, are

3 is there an appropriate recycling system in

4 place before this type of a system is

5 proposed? Are there no other alternatives?

6 You know, we have a system to review these

7 projects as they come to us. This one hasn't

8 come to us yet. And I know it has generated

9 an enormous amount of public interest and

10 opposition, and we'll give it a fair shake.

11 But our perspective on renewable

12 resources is that, you know, the other

13 technologies is where the state will put

14 emphasis. And we'll fairly and justly

15 process permit applications when they arrive

16 at our agency.

17 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you, Senator

18 Helming. It sounds like you have some very

19 compelling local issues. So if you want to

20 come back for Round Two after the other

21 members have spoken, that would be fine.

22 And I want to let members know that.

23 If you have a lot of questions, there is a

24 chance for another round. But we want to get

1 to everybody and let them have a chance to

2 ask their questions during the first round.

3 The Assembly?

4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman

5 Croci -- Crouch.

6 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: Thank you,

7 Chairwoman.

8 Commissioner, thank you for being

9 here.

10 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Assemblyman.

11 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: A question, acres

12 of wetland -- how many acres of wetland does

13 DEC own across the state?

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Acres of

15 wetlands? It's got to be tens to hundreds of

16 thousands, I would think.

17 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: You have a

18 program for mosquito management, like to

19 guard against West Nile virus?

20 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I know that was

21 an issue back in the mid-2000s, the West Nile

22 virus. There was a debate at the time about

23 spraying into wetlands.

24 We have -- you know, our objective is

1 to -- with West Nile is to support our

2 officials at DOH. When questions come up

3 about wetlands -- you know, are there

4 applications that need to be made to us for

5 spraying of insecticides -- we would take

6 those as they come to us. I have not

7 received those types of questions from the

8 DOH over the last couple of years.

9 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: DEC is proposing

10 that farmers that cover their -- hold a tarp

11 down on their silage piles, that they have to

12 cut or bore all the tires. And that's,

13 number one, a very labor-intensive, very

14 costly endeavor.

15 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Right.

16 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: It also could be

17 dangerous, because the tires have wires in

18 them and could deem that they're no longer

19 basically effective, could be puncturing

20 holes in the tarp.

21 So in consideration of, you know,

22 numbers of the acres of wetlands across the

23 state that we don't necessarily do anything

24 with unless it's a spotty problem, it seems

1 like this is kind of a small chump change way

2 of trying to attack the West Nile problem and

3 putting the burden of labor and cost on the

4 farmers that use these tires.

5 And I just, you know, wonder if

6 there's some other way that we can look at

7 this with some type of a program and certain

8 times of the year or whatever. Basically,

9 you know, a very little amount of water can

10 be contained in a tire if it's on a pile

11 because it's usually on a slope or whatever.

12 And with three days of good hot, sunny

13 weather, that water is basically evaporated

14 anyway, so the problem seems to dissipate.

15 Just your thoughts on an alternative

16 possibility.

17 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, I will

18 tell you this was a small component of a

19 large undertaking, the Part 360 revisions

20 that we did this year.

21 We've been in contact, heard loud and

22 clear from the farming community of their

23 concerns. I believe you sent me a letter on

24 this as well.

1 So our staff has been in touch with

2 the Farm Bureau to find ways in which to push

3 the requirements off for a period of time to

4 give us the chance to understand how best to

5 perhaps modify the requirement.

6 I'll give my staff credit for finding

7 ways in which to reduce the threat of

8 mosquito-borne illnesses. But I think we

9 understand the problems associated with

10 tires, that tires are important to the

11 farming community. I see them myself out

12 there on tops of piles holding down plastic.

13 But the steel-belted nature of them

14 makes boring through them and cutting them

15 difficult and sometimes hazardous. So we

16 intend to continue working on this over the

17 next year with the farming community to see

18 if there's a path forward that makes sense

19 for them and for us.

20 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: Okay. Thank you

21 for looking into that. And I would encourage

22 you to hold off and look for other

23 alternatives. It seems to be going after the

24 West Nile problem with sort of a fly swatter

1 approach, if that's -- if you don't have a

2 lot of other avenues on some of the wetlands

3 that we've encouraged. And over the years,

4 you know, DEC has welcomed the opportunity to

5 create more wetlands, so we've exacerbated

6 the problem in other ways, I believe.

7 I'm always asking a question on our

8 state woodland management. I still get

9 comments from some local loggers about trees

10 are dying in some of the state forests, good

11 quality trees. And of course we've got the

12 issue with the ash borer killing the ash

13 trees now. I'm always asking, you know, are

14 we increasing the number of foresters out

15 there that we can -- and are we marketing

16 more aggressively some of our state forest

17 products? And certainly the state at this

18 point in time could use the revenue.

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Right. I think

20 the answer to those is yes. I mean, we have

21 done good work in the last few years to

22 increase sales of timber from state-owned

23 lands, I think $7 million a year for the past

24 two years. It's a record. Last three years,

1 right. It's a record.

2 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: Good.

3 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: So our lands and

4 forest division that runs these cuts does the

5 assessments, working with the forestry

6 certifying bodies. They've been working very

7 well, they've become more streamlined. And

8 frankly I think the acceptance of the need to

9 do sustainable cuts has become more

10 widespread statewide. And we've shown that

11 we can do this in a way that protects the

12 environment but gives the timber industry a

13 chance to survive in the state.

14 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: I know some of

15 the sale of timber was rather dormant for a

16 few years, so it takes a while to get caught

17 back up. But I do appreciate your efforts

18 and your support on that.

19 One other thing, in my district or

20 just outside of my district is the Rogers

21 Environmental Center. And I just want to

22 tell you how much I support that. I would

23 like to see DEC more involved in the

24 operation of that. The Friends of Rogers

1 have done a great job, as you know, of

2 keeping the mission there.

3 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Right.

4 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: My understanding

5 is that just recently DEC put a ton of money

6 into the environmental center not too far

7 from here, and certainly we'd like to be on

8 the slate for a good slug of money into the

9 Rogers Environmental Center in Sherburne. So

10 I just wanted to get that on the record, and

11 hopefully you'll support that.

12 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Okay, thank you.

13 I'll look into it.

14 ASSEMBLYMAN CROUCH: Thank you.

15 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Yup.

16 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

17 Our next speaker is Senator Elaine

18 Phillips.

19 SENATOR PHILLIPS: Good morning.

20 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Good morning.

21 SENATOR PHILLIPS: First,

22 Commissioner, thank you. Thank you for

23 coming today. I also want to thank you and

24 Julie and Senator O'Mara for meeting with me

1 last week on the Jamaica Wells issue.

2 I just would like to reiterate that

3 the Lloyd Aquifer is vulnerable and one of

4 our most valuable resources that we have on

5 Long Island. So in your analysis and thought

6 process of what kind of conditions will be on

7 the repermitting, please, those wells should

8 be excluded from the repermitting process.

9 And any repermitting, needless to say, as we

10 discussed, should factor in USGS study

11 results.

12 I want to talk a little bit about

13 dioxane also, and I thank Senator Kaminsky

14 for bringing it up. We are pleased that the

15 Department of Health has approved the first

16 use of the technology with the Suffolk County

17 Water District. But I'd like to remind the

18 DEC that the highest levels of dioxane that

19 have been identified so far are in Nassau

20 County, and specifically in my Senate

21 district.

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Right.

23 SENATOR PHILLIPS: So I'm asking you,

24 how will the funding come through, or what is

1 the DEC's thoughts on funding? Will it be

2 direct funding? Will the DEC stay involved?

3 You know, as much as we'd like to know, that

4 what works in Suffolk County doesn't always

5 work in Nassau County. So will the DEC stay

6 involved in what the process will be?

7 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Senator,

8 absolutely, we will remain involved. We are

9 in this with the Department of Health, side

10 by side. Our role would be largely on the

11 track-down side -- what are the sources of

12 contamination, how do we abate those sources.

13 The Department of Health would then determine

14 what treatment technology is needed, if there

15 is treatment technology needed, and would run

16 much of the funding through their funding

17 schemes. And they have a stake in both the

18 Clean Water Infrastructure Act and the State

19 Revolving Loan Fund.

20 But we work seamlessly on a situation

21 like this where you have contamination that's

22 impacting the drinking water supply. We will

23 absolutely remain involved in this. This is

24 going to become a big part of what we do as

1 an agency, dioxane, PFCs, emerging

2 contaminants. It will be a core of our

3 mission now for the foreseeable future.

4 SENATOR PHILLIPS: I'd like to just

5 say a competitive situation is not the

6 appropriate way to handle this. It really

7 has to be with your expertise of identifying

8 the most vulnerable spots.

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Understand.

10 Understood.

11 SENATOR PHILLIPS: The last question I

12 have is WaterTraq. Due to some efforts and

13 support by my conference, we were able to

14 fund WaterTraq. It is being administered by

15 LICAP. And I'd like to know what the DEC's

16 thoughts are on the results. Is there any

17 type of additional or better utilization we

18 should be having that's been useful? And is

19 there ways we can enhance it if necessary?

20 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Senator, perhaps

21 you could talk a bit more about it. I'm not

22 familiar with WaterTraq.

23 SENATOR PHILLIPS: So WaterTraq -- and

24 we can do this as a follow-up. WaterTraq was

1 a system -- what we were informed of last

2 year, or what I was informed of last year, is

3 the water districts are collecting data, but

4 there was no way to share the different data

5 with each other. So WaterTraq was a system

6 that again, I want to thank my conference for

7 helping me fund it, that we provided to all

8 the water districts on Long Island in order

9 for them to communicate.

10 In my understanding, the data that's

11 coming from it really will help model, you

12 know --

13 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Absolutely. I'm

14 sorry, I hadn't heard the name WaterTraq

15 before, but I actually am familiar with the

16 system you're talking about. Stan Carey had

17 briefed us on it, and we're in regular

18 communication with him about this.

19 They are doing extraordinary work,

20 too, bringing data together. And ultimately

21 our goal is to fold that data into the larger

22 USGS study, get a sense of -- which we're

23 doing now, thanks to your help on that, we're

24 doing to paint a picture of the flows,

1 groundwater flow model, basically the major

2 groundwater flow model for all of Long

3 Island. And then layer into that all that we

4 know about Superfund locations and the flows

5 from Superfund locations, and what the water

6 districts know. And they probably know as

7 much as anybody about the conditions down

8 there.

9 So it's been enormously successful.

10 And we're going to continue folding that

11 information into the state's overall studies.

12 SENATOR PHILLIPS: Thank you.

13 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

15 Assemblywoman Fahy.

16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Thank

17 you, Madam Chair.

18 Good to see you here, Commissioner,

19 and your team.

20 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Good to see you

21 as well.

22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: I've got just a

23 couple of questions, but just a couple of

24 comments in advance. One, I really

100

1 appreciate your comments about the states

2 really have to lead on so many of these

3 issues given what you said is a hostile

4 administration. And I just want to echo your

5 words, because I couldn't agree more.

6 I really commend you for some of the

7 work you're doing on water quality, which

8 is -- I think one of the biggest achievements

9 we had last year was increasing those funds,

10 as well as the air quality -- your initiative

11 in South End. I live here in Albany; while

12 that's not my district, I've been following

13 that closely and very much appreciate your

14 efforts to get on top of that. As well as

15 your proposed efforts on the food waste and

16 the composting -- a huge issue here in

17 Albany, where we have a landfill that is set

18 to be done or to be out of use in five years.

19 Along that same line, just a couple of

20 things I'd like to urge your consideration.

21 Earlier in this hearing the brownfields tax

22 credits were brought up. And I too share

23 those concerns that Senator O'Mara raised

24 about extending those tax credits and

101

1 decoupling them from what the feds are doing.

2 But I think it's really important that

3 we maintain those, including on the big

4 projects, like the Tobin First Prize right

5 here off Route 90.

6 Another area I would be remiss in not

7 mentioning is the staffing issue that

8 Assemblyman Englebright brought up. And I

9 hear you, and again I understand that you are

10 under the same constraints that the rest of

11 the state is, and so I'm pleased that

12 staffing is remaining steady. But I know it

13 is a continuing issue of concern.

14 The last one to urge your

15 consideration of is we've had a lot of

16 meetings on Sheridan Hollow, had some very

17 productive meetings with the New York Power

18 Authority, and want to make sure that you

19 will be involved and possibly take the lead

20 on the proposals there for what had been the

21 microgrid but moving toward more renewable

22 energy in that Sheridan Hollow area.

23 So two questions. One I think is just

24 a brief one, and I've talked a few times to I

102

1 think you and your team. The VW settlement,

2 the $127 million, I know you've had lots of

3 proposals for that, and that's the one since

4 last summer I've been watching. I personally

5 think if we were to give those to buses, our

6 public transportation buses, buses especially

7 in our inner cities that may go up and down a

8 road 20 times, electrifying -- converting

9 those into electric vehicles I think would go

10 a long way.

11 Can you tell us -- you mentioned it in

12 your testimony -- can you tell us what the

13 timing will be there and if you are

14 considering public transit? And then I have

15 one other quick question.

16 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Sure.

17 Timing-wise, we started early on public

18 outreach. Some states waited until the

19 special master triggered the program; we

20 started actually last summer on this. So

21 we've gotten enormous feedback. Buses are

22 absolutely in our sights. I mean, there are

23 a number of authorities statewide, from MTA,

24 CDTA, Niagara Frontier, and everything in

103

1 between. Many of them, if not all of them,

2 want to modernize their fleets. We want to

3 support that. And I want to make sure that

4 the $127 million that we have here is going

5 to go out to truly transformational projects

6 to reduce the burden of emissions,

7 particularly in urban neighborhoods -- that's

8 where you see a lot of these buses -- to

9 reduce NOx emissions in urban neighborhoods.

10 And I want to see us do what we can to

11 leverage those dollars, right, using, you

12 know, Green Bank, other sources of funding

13 that we have at the state level, make that

14 money go farther.

15 So the timing on it, again, because we

16 started early, I expect that within the next

17 couple of months we will be able to make some

18 announcements on that. We're not done with

19 the work and the analysis yet, but I'm

20 optimistic that this will be done fairly

21 shortly.

22 There's a 10-year spend-out on the

23 money. My view of it is I want to see the

24 money applied as aggressively as possible

104

1 up-front to make the biggest change possible

2 up-front. But if there are ways in which to

3 leverage more dollars by stretching it out

4 over time, that's also a conversation we have

5 to have.

6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Okay, thank you.

7 And thanks for your consideration on public

8 transit. I think it will go a long way.

9 Last quick question, plastic bags. I

10 saw the report and the stat that jumped out

11 for me is that just in New York State, that

12 we are using 23 billion plastic bags,

13 single-use plastic bags each year. It's

14 rather stunning to me. I do think we need

15 change here.

16 I know you did the report, I know

17 Chairman Englebright does have a proposal at

18 this point. Can you talk about next steps

19 and where we are going? I know you put a few

20 options on the table, but I'm worried we're

21 not being aggressive enough.

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: So I want to

23 thank the task force members, including

24 Assemblyman Englebright and Senator O'Mara

105

1 for their work over the year. We produced an

2 87-page report which detailed really seven

3 options. I wouldn't count the eighth option,

4 which is a no-action option, as a real

5 option.

6 Everyone on the committee, on this

7 task force, was in alignment that something

8 needed to be done. The Governor sent the

9 message last year that there's 23 billion

10 bags, most of them end up in landfills or

11 waterways or streets. You know, you've all

12 seen the bag blowing around on the street

13 scape. Something has to be done about it. I

14 think people are making decisions already on

15 their own, but it clearly isn't making enough

16 of a difference.

17 So the options that we explored range

18 from bans to fees all the way to education.

19 To fix the problem, something will need to be

20 done across the board. We'll need to bring

21 in all the potential solutions involving

22 customer awareness as well as looking at bans

23 and fees.

24 But the report was meant to be

106

1 objective. We didn't achieve consensus

2 within the task force as to what path should

3 be achieved and what particular

4 recommendations should be sent up, so the

5 report was objective on its face. And I

6 think it will be helpful on its face, because

7 it was exhaustive. I give my staff an

8 enormous amount of credit for plowing through

9 dozens and dozens of instances around the

10 world where various solutions have been put

11 in place. And I think we've, you know,

12 delivered that to both the Governor and the

13 Legislature for their consideration. I know

14 that Senator Krueger has introduced

15 something, and we certainly look forward to

16 working with Senator Krueger and Assemblyman

17 Englebright to address the problem.

18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY: Thank you. Thank

19 you, Madam Chair.

20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

21 Senate?

22 SENATOR O'MARA: Senator Brooks.

23 SENATOR BROOKS: Thank you.

24 Commissioner, it's good to see you

107

1 again.

2 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Likewise.

3 SENATOR BROOKS: The Bethpage plume, a

4 couple of questions. I wonder if you can

5 give us an update of where we stand on that,

6 the timeline of where we're at, and how we're

7 doing as far as the construction of the

8 pumping wells, how you feel about the

9 funding, what cooperation or lack of

10 cooperation are we getting from Grumman

11 itself. And then finally, are we still

12 confident that we can contain the plume where

13 it is now and remediate the area?

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, on that

15 last point, thanks to some great work by some

16 staff on my team and really solid scientific

17 engineering consultancy from one of our

18 outfits on the outside, I think for the first

19 time we believe that containing the plume is

20 feasible.

21 We were in the county last year down

22 in Bethpage near Massapequa, drilling some of

23 the first wells. All of that data that we

24 generated from the wells we drilled last

108

1 year, we put together into a model which

2 shows that containment is possible. I think

3 many, many years ago people didn't think we'd

4 be able to contain a plume as big as, you

5 know, four miles by two miles. But I think

6 what we're seeing now is it's scientifically

7 possible. So the next question is how do we

8 do it.

9 That's what we're in the middle of

10 right now. So we have, you know, a very

11 complicated landscape, literally. I mean,

12 hundreds and hundreds of homes, not much open

13 space, enormous groundwater questions in the

14 entire island that we need to integrate our

15 understanding of how the water is flowing

16 through that area with the objective of

17 keeping saltwater from intruding into the

18 water table.

19 It's a very delicate balance. But

20 again, we think that it is possible now to do

21 that.

22 We have been talking with -- and the

23 governor's certainly set the tone on this.

24 We've been talking with the water districts,

109

1 we have been talking with the polluters

2 themselves, that's Grumman and the Navy. I

3 would say, to one of your questions, that we

4 are getting responses to questions. I don't

5 believe we have perfect fidelity on where we

6 need them to be on stepping up.

7 But what the Governor has made clear

8 is that the state will step up when the

9 polluters refuse to. In this instance, our

10 objective is to enhance the treatment of the

11 plume, contain it, and turn around a water

12 table that's cleaner for the next generation.

13 SENATOR BROOKS: Okay. So the -- when

14 we spoke, at least I was left with the

15 impression that we were absolutely confident

16 we could contain that. And in your response,

17 I think it's probable. Where are we?

18 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I think we can

19 do it. I think we can do it. And we will be

20 sinking wells this year on that. The

21 Governor laid that out in his pre-State of

22 the State trip that we did down to Bethpage,

23 and made it clear that we're on an aggressive

24 path to begin putting wells into the ground

110

1 to enhance that treatment, to enhance the

2 containment possibility.

3 So I think we're optimistic as an

4 agency. And I think the only real question

5 is going to be who we get to pay for it and

6 when. But we're going to push the project

7 forward and ensure that ultimately the

8 polluters are on the hook for it.

9 SENATOR BROOKS: Okay. So right now

10 you are confident, regardless of what you

11 need from a funding standpoint, that's going

12 to be available.

13 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Correct. I am.

14 SENATOR BROOKS: Okay. Thank you.

15 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

17 Assemblyman Stec.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: Thank you,

19 Chairwoman.

20 Commissioner, thanks for coming here

21 today for your testimony.

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you, sir.

23 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: I'd also like to

24 take this opportunity to thank you and the

111

1 DEC for all you do across the state on so

2 many issues that are important. And in

3 particular, you and your staff for the great

4 legislative work that we've done together

5 with local government and environmental

6 groups over the past several years,

7 including -- not limited to -- a few

8 constitutional amendments.

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Right.

10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER TIGHE: That's

11 three.

12 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: With that, though,

13 I want to make sure we continue to work

14 together in this collaborative method moving

15 forward. I think that a lot of the issues

16 that we face are going to be best dealt with

17 with local government and environmental

18 groups and stakeholders in general all on the

19 same page.

20 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Agreed.

21 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: And there's a

22 couple of things in the budget that concern

23 me a little bit about rocking that boat or

24 damaging or taking a step back from the

112

1 forward progress that we're making -- and two

2 in particular that I'll ask together, because

3 they really go to the heart of keeping local

4 government whole financially, from a fiscal

5 standpoint.

6 One certainly is the PILOT. Local

7 governments and environmental groups

8 essentially all are gravely concerned with

9 this, and I guess my question would be, you

10 know, where does DEC stand on this? Do you

11 see value in this, knowing that local

12 government has veto over future land

13 purchases in the Adirondacks and the

14 Catskills? And, you know, is this really

15 building on that good faith and collaborative

16 successes that we've had?

17 And related to the PILOT, I know

18 Assemblywoman Woerner brought up 480-a and

19 480-b. And I'm curious -- I'm not sure I

20 heard the answer to this question and your

21 response to her, but the cost to local

22 government and is that going to be addressed

23 and taken care of? Because I know that local

24 government is very concerned about that.

113

1 And I think the good news here is that

2 we're talking about a relatively small

3 financial impact to the state. But these

4 are -- you know, there's a state value to

5 this program. And so, you know, I think the

6 local government perspective in the

7 Adirondacks is the state and not local

8 government should be the one to bear the

9 costs of that.

10 So those two things for starters,

11 please.

12 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Sure. Well, on

13 the PILOT, this is a proposal of Tax &

14 Finance to change the way in which

15 assessments are made from year to year on

16 state-owned lands. And I've been assured

17 that the proposal itself will not change the

18 amount of money that's going from the state

19 into local government. I know this is an

20 efficiency initiative at Tax & Finance. It's

21 very important for the state, obviously, to

22 remain more efficient and to spend less time

23 on staff time, more time actually, you know,

24 implementing programs.

114

1 So I've been assured -- certainly have

2 seen the concerns raised directly to me and

3 in the papers, and I know that the budget

4 director has indicated certainly with this

5 program a willingness to ensure that it

6 doesn't have unintended consequences, and DEC

7 will be at the table for those discussions.

8 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: And 480-a and -b?

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: 480-a and -b,

10 the program itself that we're proposing

11 wouldn't take effect until next year. So the

12 impacts to local government wouldn't take

13 effect until next year and beyond.

14 But what we're setting up through this

15 program is a commitment to effectively keep

16 municipalities whole on this. We would do

17 that through our budget, ways in which we'd

18 have to work that out, you know, with the

19 Legislature next year and ultimately work it

20 out through the Executive Budget next year.

21 But the impacts would not be felt until

22 2019 and beyond.

23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER TIGHE: And the

24 proposal includes a reimbursement formula

115

1 that would be -- we're proposing to codify

2 that in the State Finance Law for how that

3 would work for municipalities impacted by

4 1 percent or more.

5 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: Well, again, I

6 would just reiterate, on behalf of the

7 hundred-some-odd local governments in the

8 Adirondacks, I think to a town there's grave

9 concern over what these formulas may or may

10 not look like and whether or not they will or

11 will not be stuck to going forward. Which is

12 why you're getting the calls and letters and

13 emails from local governments about these two

14 programs.

15 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Sure. Sure.

16 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: The other question

17 that I wanted to ask I think really goes --

18 I'll build off what Chairman Englebright

19 brought up, is, you know, in my words,

20 getting the funding out the door. Or is

21 there a mismatch between the amount of work

22 you're being asked to do and the funding and

23 staffing that is available to you?

24 And specifically, ranger staffing is

116

1 always a question, especially as we acquire

2 more lands. And then infrastructure, the

3 maintenance of effort from an infrastructure

4 standpoint, specifically on our lakes, the

5 properties that -- the boat launches that DEC

6 owns and maintains on the various lakes,

7 including Lake George and Lake Champlain, and

8 one specific one that I'm going to make an

9 appeal for -- this is making me go on for far

10 too long -- but there's a boat launch in

11 Saranac Lake that has a bathroom that really

12 could use a little TLC.

13 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Okay.

14 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: You know, and

15 there's some lingering issues with the State

16 Land Master Plan update, the numerous unit

17 management plans that have been kicking

18 around in dire need of updates going back

19 years. There's a backlog of UMP work that's

20 holding up good work that everyone wants to

21 do, they recognize it. But the paper trail

22 hasn't caught up, and there's no end in sight

23 as to how quickly that paper trail will catch

24 up.

117

1 And along those lines, the last part

2 of this, you know, is the SEQR process, a lot

3 of complaints over just the burdensome nature

4 of the SEQR process. And has anything been

5 done, I guess, on SEQR, SLMP and UMPs to put

6 those resources there so that we can catch up

7 and, you know, update our SEQR and certainly

8 our UMPs?

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Okay, there's a

10 lot in there.

11 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: I only have five

12 minutes.

13 (Laughter.)

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Let me see if I

15 can do it quickly.

16 So infrastructure, NY Works has been

17 in effect since 2011. And we had a big boost

18 last year in NY Works, which the Governor set

19 forth his Adventure NY. We mixed that up

20 with some of the stewardship monies in the

21 EPF and have launched an initiative to

22 restore some of our infrastructure.

23 I will agree with you that there are

24 many locations around the state, DEC

118

1 facilities -- the same thing happened with

2 Parks facilities -- where there was literally

3 decades of neglect. And when we came in six,

4 seven years ago, we found that we had a real

5 infrastructure burden. We've been slowly

6 chipping away at that. There are some

7 locations around the state, unlike Saranac

8 boat launch and the restroom there --

9 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: Don't forget that

10 one. Saranac Lake and the bathroom.

11 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: That's now

12 seared in my memory.

13 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: Because the

14 Governor uses that bathroom.

15 (Laughter.)

16 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: All right.

17 That's all you had to say. That's all you

18 say.

19 (Laughter.)

20 UNIDENTIFIED MALE PANELIST: I'm not

21 going to ask you how you know that.

22 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: I know these

23 things. I have my ways. We'll leave it at

24 that.

119

1 (Laughter.)

2 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: So we have

3 developed a master list. I brought on

4 somebody to specifically do these projects --

5 basically to hone our list, prioritize it,

6 and begin spending that money accordingly.

7 So that the first year of Adventure NY was

8 designed to do that.

9 We're continuing that this year and

10 we're continuing it for the foreseeable

11 future. We're seeing record tourism now in

12 the Adirondacks and Catskills. We want to

13 see people come and want to come back, and

14 part of it is giving them a good experience

15 when they're there. So key to that is

16 infrastructure.

17 So you have my commitment to look at

18 the Saranac Lake bathrooms and certainly push

19 forth the Adventure NY package.

20 Ranger levels, we hear certainly quite

21 a bit about that. You know, our Rangers have

22 done, since I've been in state government and

23 many, many years prior to that, they do

24 incredible work. I know you have a personal

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1 connection to the Ranger force.

2 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: Yes. Yes, I do.

3 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I can't say

4 enough about what they do. And since I've

5 been in office, I have made it my priority to

6 give them everything that they need, both the

7 Rangers and the Environmental Conservation

8 Officers. They're on the front lines doing

9 some of the most heroic and dangerous work.

10 And so I think there's a couple of

11 things. We just graduated the second class,

12 back-to-back classes. That hasn't happened

13 probably in 10 or 15 years that we've had

14 back-to-back classes. There was a large cut

15 in force, the rangers and ECOs, back in the

16 mid-to-late 2000s. So we're starting to

17 restore those numbers. Actually, our ranger

18 numbers are at the highest level in a couple

19 of decades. So we're starting to rebuild

20 that force. Same thing on the ECO side.

21 Record tourism. We get that people

22 are going more intensively to some of these

23 corridors, like the Route 73 corridor. It's

24 triggering more rescues. We have an

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1 obligation to spread the traffic out of it,

2 there's some benefits to that so you're not

3 impacting the resources as much where it is,

4 you're putting people into other areas of the

5 park. It also helps the hamlets in the

6 communities that need that benefit. And

7 using our partners out there to do some of

8 the maintenance work and keep our rangers and

9 ECOs focused on their core mission.

10 So I certainly have a commitment to

11 working with both forces to ensure they have

12 the right numbers, get the next academy going

13 when we can, and continue rebuilding the

14 force.

15 UMPs, completely agree with you.

16 There's UMPs that have been sitting on

17 shelves for years. We started to look into

18 those under my predecessor, Commissioner

19 Martens, have begun to do that in earnest

20 over the last few years as well. Going to

21 put those UMPs into action, because there are

22 real needs in communities, and find ways in

23 which to turn around projects more quickly.

24 Several of the big projects that we're

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1 doing up in the Adirondacks right now are

2 gaining lots of attention. All of that

3 relies on being able to look at UMPs and do

4 quick turnaround on UMPs and working with APA

5 on SLMP issues.

6 So I don't know if I got everything in

7 there. SEQR, obviously we've done SEQR

8 amendments, attempting to streamline SEQR

9 through collaborative outreach. And that

10 obviously is its own beast, but we've made

11 some progress on that, and we'll be getting

12 out final regs shortly.

13 ASSEMBLYMAN STEC: Thanks,

14 Commissioner. Thanks, all.

15 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

16 SENATOR O'MARA: Senator Krueger.

17 SENATOR KRUEGER: Hi. Is it still

18 morning? I think so.

19 SENATOR O'MARA: Nope.

20 SENATOR KRUEGER: No, good afternoon.

21 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Good afternoon.

22 SENATOR KRUEGER: Good afternoon.

23 So many questions. So you already

24 answered one of my questions about plastic

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1 bags with Pat Fahy. But I just want to

2 highlight how important it would be for the

3 Governor to pick a proposal, any proposal --

4 yes, perhaps the bill Assemblymember

5 Englebright and I introduced yesterday, or

6 something else. But we need to either come

7 up with a statewide plan or make it clear the

8 localities can go forward -- specifically,

9 New York City, who we stopped from going

10 forward and said we'll come up with a

11 statewide plan.

12 So the report was very helpful, but we

13 have to actually operationalize somehow. And

14 I think leadership from the Governor's office

15 would make a huge difference in helping us

16 move forward down one of the roads.

17 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Understood.

18 I'll pass it along.

19 SENATOR KRUEGER: Thank you.

20 We're behind what New Jersey is

21 announcing it's planning on doing with

22 offshore wind targets. Can we realistically

23 move up our agenda?

24 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, I would

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1 say that we're actually way ahead of

2 New Jersey on this. We started this process

3 several years ago to -- this is -- again, I'm

4 going to refer you to NYSERDA to answer much

5 of this, because they have the most expertise

6 on it.

7 But we started this process with

8 offshore wind when I was in the chamber, so

9 2012-2013, starting the process of

10 characterizing our offshore wind assets, the

11 sensitive resources, you know, working with

12 the federal government to determine what

13 areas were appropriate for offshore wind.

14 The Governor put in a very aggressive

15 commitment this year. We intend to honor

16 that commitment over the next two years --

17 800 megawatts, I believe it is. You may have

18 to get some of the clarification from NYSERDA

19 on this. But we very much see offshore wind

20 as a huge part of certainly our downstate,

21 statewide energy picture over the coming

22 years.

23 And that's in part why we've been so

24 vocal in our opposition to offshore oil

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1 drilling, based on some of the concerns in

2 compatibility with those two programs.

3 SENATOR KRUEGER: So, you know, I will

4 follow up with NYSERDA. Thank you.

5 And you talked about this partly, but

6 if the EPF and the federal government

7 dramatically reduce the monies that we are

8 receiving from them going through your

9 agency, I think particularly around staffing

10 patterns, what are we cutting to make sure

11 that we still have the staff to do your

12 primary functions?

13 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, listen,

14 I'm not going to mince words. I'm very

15 concerned about what the EPA is proposing.

16 We have a potential 23 percent cut to federal

17 budgets to an agency that we rely on here in

18 New York.

19 It's not just that DEC relies on the

20 EPA, it's that the state itself relies on the

21 EPA. We have, you know, years, decades of

22 programs that the EPA has carried out

23 directly in New York State with their own

24 employees doing their own very important

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1 work. And we've been working very closely

2 with them over that period. We have not seen

3 a proposed cut like this, with the likelihood

4 of success, frankly ever -- at least not in

5 my lifetime.

6 So we're very, very concerned about

7 what's happening at the federal level. I

8 know that the Congressional delegation that

9 we're working with is also very concerned. I

10 mean, they're talking about lining out

11 certain programs like the Great Lakes

12 Restoration Initiative or Long Island Sound.

13 I mean, it's sort of an all-out assault on

14 that budget.

15 We also get money directly from the

16 EPA at DEC. We get EPA money at DEC for the

17 implementation, the carrying out of federal

18 environmental laws -- Clean Air Act, Clean

19 Water Act, and certain other programs. So

20 the prospect of a cut is concerning to us for

21 very obvious reasons, because that would have

22 a ripple effect on our staffing.

23 You know, thankfully the Governor is

24 pushing back against the overall budget, but

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1 certainly on the cuts to the EPA, he's put

2 out some statements about that. And I intend

3 to spend some of my time this spring down in

4 D.C. ensuring that our federal partners

5 understand that cuts from the EPA will be

6 real problems here in New York.

7 SENATOR KRUEGER: But what is our Plan

8 B in our state budget if --

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, Plan B is

10 to fight back. And Plan A is the Governor

11 has given us a good budget this year. Right?

12 We have a -- in spite of a very significant

13 $4.4 billion deficit, the Governor has held

14 DEC to a constant staffing level. He's

15 actually increased some of our resources over

16 the last two years through the EPF, through

17 the Clean Water Infrastructure Act,

18 continuation of the State Superfund. And

19 we've been given resources now to carry out

20 programs and do things that we were never

21 able to do as an agency.

22 So I think as a starting point, we're

23 in very good shape. Plan B is to fight back.

24 Plan C is I'll talk to you later, we'll

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1 figure out what happens if the federal

2 government actually reaches this cut.

3 I will be honest with you, I am

4 optimistic that wisdom will prevail on a

5 potential cut to the EPA. I don't believe

6 it's going to happen because so many people

7 now recognize that the EPA is doing real work

8 that translates into jobs, real economic

9 activity, and protection of natural

10 resources. So hopefully we won't have to

11 have that Plan C conversation. But we're

12 going to spend an enormous amount of work

13 pushing back on a bad idea.

14 SENATOR KRUEGER: My time is up. But

15 can you estimate, if you did get the

16 23 percent cut from the EPA, what percentage

17 of your staff would be cut?

18 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I don't know if

19 I can give you a specific number, but it

20 would be in the dozens at least.

21 SENATOR KRUEGER: Thank you.

22 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS: Assemblyman Otis.

23 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you,

24 Commissioner. I wanted to thank you and DEC

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1 and EFC for the great work on the Water

2 Infrastructure Improvement Act and talk a

3 little about some of the dynamics of that

4 going forward. But the implementation has

5 been great. In the three years of the

6 Municipal Water Grant Program, there have

7 been 300 different communities have gotten

8 funding, amounting to over $500 million,

9 which is huge.

10 The need -- and I thank you and the

11 Governor for staying steadfast in this budget

12 with the program. The need is enormous. One

13 of the great advocates for the program in the

14 Hudson Valley has been the Construction

15 Industry Council of Westchester and the

16 Hudson River area. And they have done

17 reports along the way tracking the need.

18 And so their estimate -- and they have

19 submitted written testimony for this hearing

20 today -- their estimate going forward in that

21 the need in the Hudson Valley is going to be

22 somewhere above $640 million in new projects

23 in the next five years. And I would estimate

24 that that number is probably low, because

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1 there are a number of communities that

2 haven't really done up the engineering to

3 know where they need to go.

4 So the program is going to be with us

5 at least until 2022, and that represents what

6 a great commitment this has been. But I'm

7 interested in your thoughts about what you're

8 hearing on the demand side statewide. And

9 just asking you to keep with it, and thank

10 you for that, but also to look for

11 opportunities to even continue to grow this

12 in future years even beyond the big numbers

13 that we have now. It's been -- one of the

14 big successes of it has also been that many

15 communities that weren't doing their water

16 projects at all, because of the grants, now

17 with the revolving loan fund piece, can come

18 and do both. And we've seen a lot of new

19 communities come and do projects that were

20 not in the game at all.

21 So your comments on those questions.

22 But thank you and thank EFC and everybody at

23 the staff level, both agencies.

24 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: And thank you

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1 for your advocacy on this. I mean, it's been

2 great to work with you on this over the last

3 few years.

4 Without a doubt, we've changed the

5 playing field in the last three years,

6 between the Water Infrastructure Improvement

7 Act and the Clean Water Infrastructure Act.

8 Those two, transformational. I mean, call

9 them generationally transformational, because

10 they are. It's not just the dollars that

11 we're putting into those programs, it's their

12 ability to leverage other dollars.

13 So you mentioned the $500 million that

14 we've spent in three years. That's actually

15 leveraged over $2 billion in projects.

16 That's a significant number. We've all heard

17 the statewide estimate. I think you put a

18 lot of stock in the exact nature of it,

19 because it is such a large number. But it is

20 a big number, multiple billion dollars,

21 30-some-billion dollars of need.

22 I think we all agree that there's that

23 need. But what we're finding now is that

24 these programs are working very well, we're

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1 spending the money, we're getting the money

2 out the door very quickly. The interest in

3 the programs is extraordinary. And now the

4 interest, as you mentioned, in the Clean

5 Water Revolving Fund. Whereas we set much of

6 that money aside for lack of interest over

7 many, many years, now the grant program is

8 encouraging people to go and take those low-

9 or no-interest loans. So that helps us do

10 that leveraging that we were never able to do

11 in the past. It makes the programs more

12 attractive. And I credit all of you,

13 frankly, for pushing that through last year,

14 the Clean Water Infrastructure Act. It will

15 be with us through 2022, as you mentioned.

16 And it gives us a chance to begin addressing

17 that backlog.

18 The problem with it all is

19 obviously -- you start back in the '70s when

20 the federal government put a huge chunk of

21 money, grant money, in for the construction

22 of these plants. Then they walked away, and

23 it became a maintenance issue for the towns

24 to keep up with the need. And it was always

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1 difficult for towns to, in some cases, take

2 these loans out, the municipalities, because

3 the rates were high or they just couldn't

4 afford it in their bottom lines.

5 I think we're starting to change that.

6 We're starting to see the implications of

7 maintaining drinking water, clean water in

8 the right way, in the sense that it protects

9 things like tourism assets, Niagara Falls

10 being a perfect example of that where you had

11 disinvestment for many years and the state

12 now having to step in and fix the problem, to

13 protect a -- not just aquatic resources, but

14 a real tourism economy.

15 So we're making good efforts, I think,

16 on that. And I think, you know, the great

17 Ross Pepe and the work that they're doing in

18 the Hudson Valley -- you know, we work very

19 closely with them and rely on their input as

20 well as many other advocates within the state

21 to ensure that there's a -- spending is going

22 on, the public understands what we're doing,

23 it's not just the visible infrastructure,

24 it's critical infrastructure.

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1 And by the way, we'll be taking that

2 message to the federal government, because we

3 need to protect the Clean Water and Drinking

4 Water Revolving Funds for the foreseeable

5 future.

6 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Well, thank you for

7 the good work. And I represent the Long

8 Island Sound portion of Westchester County,

9 those communities are using the program and

10 getting projects done. So thank you very

11 much.

12 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Great. Thank

13 you.

14 SENATOR O'MARA: Senator Betty Little.

15 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you.

16 And thank you, Commissioner, and also

17 thank your staff and everyone under your

18 leadership who works very well with us in the

19 Legislature, I believe. So I thank you very

20 much for all your efforts.

21 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you,

22 Senator.

23 SENATOR LITTLE: A couple of things.

24 Invasive species has been a program I've

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1 worked on since I got here, because of all

2 the lakes in the Adirondacks and the

3 North Country. I think we've made great

4 progress on the preventative side and put a

5 lot of money into that, with both washing

6 stations and the brochures and education

7 programs. Very, very important.

8 But on actual eradication, we still

9 have a lot of lakes that need help in getting

10 their eradication programs going. Even if

11 it's a partial participation, at one time

12 they could apply for funding, a municipality

13 or a lake association, and get some help to

14 remove the milfoil or the zebra mussels or

15 whatever they had. And I know that -- I just

16 want to bring to your attention and see if

17 there's anything that we're going to be doing

18 with that this year.

19 And before I leave invasives, of the

20 12 lakes, two are in my district, Lake George

21 and Lake Champlain. And I think what we do

22 learn on these 12 lakes are going to benefit

23 all the other lakes, and there's thousands in

24 New York State.

136

1 But it's more than just the HABs. And

2 I went out to the announcement, and I

3 understand that even invasive stormwater

4 runoff, anything that's going to affect the

5 water quality, is something that's going to

6 be looked at. Is that correct?

7 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: That's correct.

8 Every waterway will have different

9 problems associated with it, some of which

10 trigger HABs. So that's why you really need

11 an all-in approach. And it's almost a

12 no-regrets approach, right? If you're

13 controlling a stormwater problem that maybe

14 the source of or the trigger for HABs, well,

15 you're fixing a stormwater problem. Or if

16 it's spending money on a berm at a farm,

17 that's good news no matter what.

18 We need to ensure that we're matching

19 up the science with what we understand about

20 HABs, and it's all -- it's, again, different

21 on every lake. And sometimes we don't

22 entirely understand up-front what's causing

23 them. But our intent is to go out there and

24 put money towards projects that make sense

137

1 from a water quality perspective. We want to

2 tie it as closely as possible to HABs,

3 because we want to stop the HABs, but

4 investments in watershed protection pay off

5 for many, many reasons, and we intend to keep

6 that program going aggressively.

7 SENATOR LITTLE: Okay. And are we

8 going to do anything with the money for

9 invasives for eradication, maybe for local

10 governments and lakes associations again?

11 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: So I have always

12 been sympathetic to the request for

13 eradication money. I mean, in a perfect

14 universe, the best money is spent on

15 prevention because it becomes much more

16 expensive after the fact. But when you have

17 a waterway that's been impacted, you have to

18 do something about it.

19 So I am sympathetic to it. And I

20 think last year we had a conversation about

21 this. And I can get back to you with the

22 exact monies that we may have spent towards

23 eradication, unless Julie has that on hand.

24 But I'm comfortable pushing, you know, a

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1 balance of money towards eradication efforts

2 while keeping the prevention monies whole.

3 I know we've done some great work this

4 year, there's now a boost in the EPF to help

5 put the boat washing detection station with

6 the DOT, and that should make a big

7 difference to the Adirondacks.

8 SENATOR LITTLE: Absolutely.

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thanks for your

10 work on that.

11 SENATOR LITTLE: And I'm looking

12 forward to all that and working on the lake

13 initiative.

14 And the Forest Rangers were

15 mentioned -- or forest products. But I can't

16 mention forests without talking about the

17 Forest Rangers and thanking them for their

18 extraordinary work, as well as your

19 Environmental Conservation people in the

20 Adirondacks. They've had some huge searches

21 this year -- overnight searches, cold, nasty

22 conditions -- and been very, very effective.

23 So thank them.

24 One of the things -- you know, the

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1 480-a program was something that in 2004 I

2 was finally able to get some money for the

3 local governments. And for those who don't

4 understand, when you put your land in this

5 program, you get a reduction in assessment.

6 But therefore the local municipality loses

7 some of their land and tax value.

8 So this -- we did get that money, and

9 it did go into the AIM eventually, although

10 there's still a separate one for schools.

11 But that's my major concern about this

12 one, is how we work the money to the local

13 governments. And I know you went from

14 80 percent to 70 percent, I assume it's to do

15 less money, make it less costly. But on the

16 25-acre, I assume you're going to get a lot

17 more participants. And the only question

18 is -- two things there. You call for

19 certified foresters. Is that going to lead

20 to licensing of foresters, or how are you

21 doing that?

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: The certified

23 foresters, we would seek to incentivize the

24 program and ensure that the cuts being done

140

1 were being done in a sustainable manner. The

2 monies that -- some of the money we'd be

3 making available would go towards helping

4 landowners with the certifications of the

5 groups of landowners, that they effectively

6 would be able to benefit from pooling

7 resources on this.

8 But that's the objective. We want to

9 ensure that the cuts are being done

10 sustainably. I have no doubt that the

11 program itself will increase. Because of the

12 changes to the law, there will be more

13 interest in it. The fact that we have a mix

14 of both forest and open space as well will be

15 attractive. And I think the work of the

16 forest products industry to advise us on this

17 to this point shows us that there's some real

18 need and the chance to turn around some real

19 benefits for the state as a whole.

20 SENATOR LITTLE: Yeah. And the only

21 other question was the DEC approval of any

22 plan, timbering plan. Some of them are down

23 to 10 acres, 25 acres. Do you have enough

24 staff for doing all of that?

141

1 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We certainly

2 have enough staff to carry out the program,

3 there's no question about it. And --

4 SENATOR LITTLE: Is it going to take

5 time to get those approvals or -- there's

6 some concern from those involved.

7 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We certainly

8 want to run a program that is not burdensome

9 to the landowner. We're proposing something

10 because we think it will generate interest in

11 it, and it will generate real benefits for

12 the state. And we wouldn't be putting it

13 forward if we didn't think we could carry it

14 out.

15 This is going to be an important

16 aspect of the overall forestry picture in

17 New York State, given how much land is now in

18 private hands and given how the current

19 program has not fulfilled all the

20 expectations, perhaps, that we would have

21 wanted 10 or 15 years ago.

22 But from a staffing perspective, you

23 know, we're ready to carry this out. It's

24 going to take effect next year. But we've

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1 been in the planning phase of this, frankly,

2 for three years.

3 SENATOR LITTLE: Is the approval just

4 an approval to make them eligible to get into

5 the program, or is it for everything going

6 forward?

7 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Want to say

8 something about the approval process?

9 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER TIGHE: So we

10 have two new programs that we're proposing.

11 One is the certification. That's the

12 70 percent that you reference. In those

13 cases, right now we don't have the ability to

14 just, okay, you're certified by, say, SFI or

15 FSE, and okay, you've checked the box, we're

16 going to give you this credit for that.

17 Under this new construct, that's what we're

18 proposing, that if you have one of those

19 approved -- and it's not limited to those

20 two, but it's whatever is approved and set

21 forth in regulations, then those would meet

22 that.

23 So -- and we're anticipating that

24 right now, this would be more of those larger

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1 owners -- your Lyme Timber, your Finch Pruyn,

2 your International Paper. Those kind of

3 landowners are already certified, or many of

4 them are -- DEC-certified, by the way.

5 SENATOR LITTLE: It's the smaller

6 landowners that we're hearing from.

7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER TIGHE: Yeah. And

8 we've left open the opportunity for them to

9 do group certification, which doesn't exist

10 right now but we think that this could help

11 create that.

12 Secondly, there's a program that would

13 allow for a forest management program to come

14 in. That's actually a 40 percent reduction

15 in taxes, as opposed to the 70 percent,

16 recognizing that there would be less

17 obligations on the landowner. Some of it

18 would be, you know, forest timber harvests;

19 others could be different types of activities

20 related to wetlands restoration or invasive

21 species management that has to be done on at

22 least 10 acres of land.

23 And we are trying to do that in a way

24 that's more streamlined than the current

144

1 480-a program. And as a result of this, the

2 objective of the Division of Lands and

3 Forests is to spend less time on paperwork

4 and more time out in the field working with

5 the landowners to make sure that those

6 forests are being managed sustainably.

7 SENATOR LITTLE: Right. My only

8 concern is I wouldn't want to see, where they

9 have to have this DEC approval, a long

10 waiting period and losing a whole season

11 because of the waiting period.

12 But I look forward to working with you

13 on it.

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Us too.

15 SENATOR LITTLE: Thank you.

16 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

17 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

19 Assemblyman Thiele.

20 ASSEMBLYMAN THIELE: Thank you.

21 And first let me just thank you,

22 Commissioner, for your access and your

23 commitment to your job as commissioner of

24 environmental conservation. Greatly

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1 appreciate the outreach that you've had with

2 the Legislature.

3 You know, in fact on Saturday night

4 I'm in the movies with my wife, and I get a

5 text from Julie on something that I had asked

6 her about earlier in the week, and I had to

7 explain for a minute why I was getting a text

8 from a woman named Julie on a Saturday night.

9 (Laughter.)

10 ASSEMBLYMAN THIELE: But I showed her

11 the text.

12 (Laughter.)

13 ASSEMBLYMAN THIELE: And Commissioner,

14 I appreciate you coming out to eastern

15 Long Island. Senator LaValle and I both

16 appreciate you coming out to meet with our

17 commercial fishermen. We have two of the

18 largest commercial fishing ports in the

19 state. And your attention to that issue has

20 been, you know, much appreciated across the

21 East End of Long Island.

22 And that really gets to my first

23 question. You know, out of that meeting, one

24 of the things came out of it, there's a

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1 concern about New York State not getting its

2 fair share of the various quotas that are

3 allocated by the federal government. And the

4 Governor I think has recognized that also and

5 basically has directed the state to petition

6 the federal government for a fair share of

7 that quota, or to sue if the federal

8 government does not respond.

9 You know, since we met in November,

10 can you just update us as to what the status

11 of those efforts are?

12 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: So when we met

13 in November -- and thank you for having me

14 out there. Actually, it was a great meeting.

15 I learned quite a bit about the industry.

16 We were expecting a decision from the

17 federal government in December on quotas.

18 We've been hammering them for several years

19 about this, and we were expecting them to at

20 least make a determination. I couldn't say

21 that I was optimistic that New York would

22 somehow get a better share; we've been on the

23 receiving end of a fairly hostile allocation

24 that's gone on now for many years. The

147

1 Governor has spoken out about this.

2 What they have done is effectively

3 punted the decision all the way until maybe

4 September or October of this year. So what

5 should have been done in December is now not

6 going to be done until almost a year later.

7 That puts us in a bit of a bind from a

8 litigation perspective, because you need to

9 challenge an agency action that's a final

10 action. So my question to my legal team now

11 is what can we do in the interim, you know,

12 short of litigation, to force the

13 government's hand.

14 I think we have a fantastic case to

15 make. I mean, the numbers themselves, on

16 their face, are arresting. You know,

17 New York gets less than 10 percent of the

18 share, and you have states like -- you know,

19 smaller states where fishing isn't as

20 important or isn't as vibrant get a much

21 larger share. And there's a variety of

22 reasons we've arrived at this point, but we

23 have to get out of this point.

24 So if we petition over the next few

148

1 months based on the existing status, will the

2 federal government turn that around?

3 Possibly. But I think ultimately the force

4 of our arguments are going to be heard in the

5 court of law, as the Governor has said. We

6 intend to see that forward.

7 ASSEMBLYMAN THIELE: Okay. My second

8 question relates to something we've talked

9 about, and it has to do with the $2.5 billion

10 water infrastructure improvement and a

11 particular application. And I've got the

12 East Hampton Press here; they give out gold

13 stars and dunce caps from time to time.

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Uh-oh.

15 ASSEMBLYMAN THIELE: Yeah. And I get

16 both from time to time myself. And so did

17 you. The -- you got a gold star for all the

18 efforts and the funding on the southern pine

19 beetle. And thank you, it really has made a

20 difference, particularly in the Town of East

21 Hampton.

22 But the dunce cap to the DEC was for

23 rejecting a $1.75 million grant to replace

24 the Springs School's ancient septic system

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1 solely because of the agency's own spelling

2 mistake. The grant would have cleaned up

3 Accabonac Harbor, but the DEC searched for

4 Accabonac using the old English spelling, as

5 opposed to the modern spelling on the list of

6 compromised water bodies, and failed to find

7 the harbor and rejected the application.

8 So that discharge continues to

9 threaten the harbor today. That was one

10 expensive "K." My question -- and I think it

11 relates to whether or not, with all the

12 increased responsibilities, whether you need

13 more staff to implement this program. You

14 know, the DEC -- I think the story about

15 spelling is an apocryphal story. I doubt

16 that that's true. But the fact of the matter

17 is that the Springs School District was told

18 that Accabonac Harbor was not an impaired

19 water body, it was not on the Suffolk County

20 Subwatersheds Plan.

21 And, you know, one Saturday -- you

22 know, I work on the weekends too, Julie. One

23 Sunday morning I was on the DEC website and

24 quickly found that Accabonac Harbor is an

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1 impaired water body, and I went to the

2 Suffolk County website and found out that

3 indeed Accabonac Harbor is on the Suffolk

4 County Subwatersheds Plan.

5 You know, there's great support on

6 Long Island for water quality and water

7 quality updates, but when something like this

8 happens, you know, it creates a concern with

9 regard to whether or not we're going to be

10 setting the right priorities for water

11 quality.

12 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: So you brought

13 us the Springs School issue several weeks

14 ago. We've been talking internally about how

15 that might be addressed. And then we still

16 have a few days until the vote, which I think

17 is the 6th, correct?

18 ASSEMBLYMAN THIELE: Right.

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: So I think more

20 to come on that particular point. I mean, I

21 ultimately want to address that problem, I

22 want to fix it, and understand that if we

23 don't get it kicked back into a competitive

24 process, you know, for the next round -- no

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1 question that the Clean Water Infrastructure

2 Act is as important in Long Island as it is

3 anywhere. The septic problems and the

4 nitrogen problems on Long Island, the impacts

5 to the environment down there are

6 significant. We've been down there many

7 times with the Governor where he's seen some

8 of the problems himself, and we've dedicated

9 money towards fixing those.

10 So you have my commitment to at least

11 try to fix the Springs School problem. I

12 told you that, and I definitely will try to

13 do it until the very last minute.

14 And in terms of staffing, I'll say it

15 again, I think we've been given more

16 resources than ever to manage this program to

17 manage clean water. We're doing it

18 extraordinarily well. Are we perfect all the

19 time? No. That's why we have an iterative

20 process. And we want to ensure that the

21 grants that we want to make available towards

22 fixing problems are being made quickly and

23 being given out as broadly as possible to fix

24 problems; in particularly, the priority water

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1 problems like the one you referenced.

2 ASSEMBLYMAN THIELE: And I will be

3 sure to tell the East Hampton Press that your

4 office has been in constant contact with my

5 office and with Senator LaValle's office

6 trying to address the Springs issue. And I

7 do appreciate the attention and the focus

8 that you put into that, and it's greatly

9 appreciated. Thank you.

10 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

12 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

13 Senator O'Mara.

14 SENATOR O'MARA: Yes, thank you,

15 Commissioner. I just would be remiss, as I

16 didn't the first time around, to thank you

17 and your staff, particularly Julie and Ken,

18 for the great relationship that we have and

19 working relationship over the years that I've

20 been chairman and you've been commissioner.

21 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you. I'll

22 echo that. Thank you.

23 SENATOR O'MARA: And now I'll move on

24 to tough questions again.

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1 (Laughter.)

2 SENATOR O'MARA: I want to echo the

3 concerns of Assemblyman Englebright and a few

4 others on the staffing issues at DEC and the

5 significant length of time it seems to take

6 the department to make decisions on a

7 multitude of issues. It continues to be a

8 concern over the years, and I don't see the

9 department pushing hard enough to shorten

10 time frames on the decision-making process.

11 What is going on in that regard?

12 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Is there a

13 specific example that you have in mind,

14 Senator?

15 SENATOR O'MARA: Well, there's

16 several, but one pending one that's in its

17 eighth or ninth year now is the underground

18 gas storage in Watkins Glen. And the length

19 of time that process goes on is neither good

20 for the industry or the community. It's

21 extremely problematic, an extremely divisive

22 issue. Dragging it out doesn't help anybody.

23 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: That matter has

24 been now with our Hearings Division for some

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1 time. The administrative law judge in that,

2 as you probably are aware, made a

3 determination back in October, perhaps, that

4 there were no issues for adjudication. I

5 can't get into the details of that, but now

6 that issue is on appeal. Ultimately, I'm the

7 final decisionmaker on that. When the

8 appeals process is exhausted, that comes to

9 me.

10 So I know we've spoken about this the

11 last two budget hearings prior to this in a

12 row. I would just say on that particular

13 project, it's now nearing the point where a

14 determination can be made because it's gone

15 through the hearing phase, appeals are

16 underway, and we've gotten appeals from over

17 several dozen parties. And then once that's

18 finally on my desk, I'll be making a

19 determination on that.

20 SENATOR O'MARA: But that particular

21 incident was I think about five years before

22 it went to an issues conference. Which is

23 way too long to determine whether an issues

24 conference is needed. And then the

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1 administrative law judge got it and didn't

2 give you a decision for two and a half years.

3 That's unconscionable delays in these

4 processes.

5 What control do you have over the

6 administrative law judge panels that are out

7 there? And can judges like this that take

8 this long be removed from that panel?

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, listen, I

10 mean on a contentious issue like this, a big

11 issue where you have dozens of parties that

12 are involved and multiple aspects of a

13 project that are under consideration, they

14 take time inherently to understand. You're

15 reviewing not only, you know, complicated

16 submissions from applicants but submissions

17 from within the agency itself.

18 I can push our staff in many ways, and

19 I am doing that on many other projects. This

20 one is in a different place. I was eager to

21 get this one through hearings and get a

22 decision on this. I think what you saw was a

23 result of an enormous amount of work that

24 went on behind the scenes. And there are

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1 many other issues like it where, you know,

2 complicated decisions come before the agency

3 and they go into hearings, and the hearings

4 office is making determinations.

5 I'll tell you that the hearings office

6 is actually pumping out decisions at a much

7 higher level than when I first came in. I've

8 been signing orders on a very frequent basis.

9 Some of the more contentious ones take more

10 time. But I've been encouraging them to move

11 quickly.

12 I don't think we're at the point where

13 we need to talk about changing gears within

14 hearings. I think we have, you know, several

15 major cases that are under review. And I

16 want to give my staff the chance to

17 thoroughly review those. I want to give my

18 law judges the chance to thoroughly consider

19 those and not unduly prejudice the outcomes.

20 But when it's fully in my control, if

21 it's in the control of the staff, that's

22 something I think we can move more swiftly

23 when the legal process isn't in play.

24 SENATOR O'MARA: It's these delays

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1 that don't necessarily -- well, not

2 necessarily, they don't at all lay out the

3 welcome mat for industry in this state.

4 And the Governor's Open for Business

5 slogan is not helped by these types of

6 delays, either within DEC or anywhere else in

7 the state that's out of your control, the

8 department's.

9 But it's everywhere. And I go back

10 to, again, it hurts our credibility of what

11 we're trying to do economically in this state

12 when things can't get done.

13 On just a couple of other smaller

14 matters. We talked a couple of years in a

15 row about the status of vehicles for

16 Environmental Conservation Officers. I know

17 we talked about it at length last year. And

18 I think we ended up getting fewer vehicles

19 last year than the year before.

20 Where are we now, and what are you

21 planning on for this year?

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We got more

23 vehicles last year than we did the year prior

24 to that. We have about a comparable number

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1 this year that we're dedicating to the ECOs

2 and Rangers.

3 I think we've actually gotten over the

4 hump. There was the years of disinvestment

5 in 2008 to '10, or maybe 2007 to '10, where

6 the state wasn't buying vehicles. Because of

7 that chunk of years where you had a void, you

8 had older vehicles coming into service and

9 being used longer, and we had to catch up to

10 it.

11 We're not a hundred percent there on

12 the ECOs and Rangers, but we're making a real

13 dent in it. I know it because I go to a lot

14 of the rescues and incidents that they have,

15 and I'm seeing far more newer vehicles than

16 the older ones that sort of typified the

17 agency back in 2010, 2011. And I think it's,

18 you know, something that in two or three

19 years we'll be past that time because the

20 useful life of those old vehicles will

21 frankly be behind us.

22 But it's been one of my -- one of my

23 commitments was the commitment to the forces

24 when I first came in that I would seek to

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1 modernize the fleets as quickly as possible.

2 We've gotten a dispensation from the Budget

3 Division to do so. And we'll continue to do

4 that and get us into sort of a carrying

5 capacity moving forward once we reach that

6 point.

7 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. And

8 that's certainly a priority for myself and

9 many others, for the safety and frankly just

10 the appearance of the department.

11 Are there any classes pending for

12 EnCon Officers or Forest Rangers at this

13 point?

14 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Nothing pending.

15 We just finished the second back-to-back

16 class in August, and we're talking right now

17 internally about timing the scheduling of the

18 next class. But it's my intent to push that

19 forward as quickly as possible.

20 SENATOR O'MARA: How many came out of

21 the last back-to-back classes?

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We had about 50

23 graduate last time, maybe 55 the class

24 before. I'd have to look at the exact

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1 numbers. It's ECOs and rangers. So what

2 we're trying to do is make up for the years

3 where there wasn't any -- no classes were

4 being held. Again, the same time period, the

5 late 2000s, during the fiscal crisis. And

6 then, you know, make up and then also match

7 for retirements. The force in certain

8 respects is aging. We want to make sure that

9 we're bringing in enough new classes to cover

10 retirements and attrition. And that

11 hopefully will happen in the next year or so.

12 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you.

13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

14 Assemblyman Colton.

15 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Yes, thank you,

16 Commissioner. I also appreciate your raising

17 in your comments the issue of climate change

18 and the urgency of it, which I think is at a

19 crisis stage and it's going to become even

20 more of a crisis as we deal with policies

21 coming from Washington, D.C.

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Agreed.

23 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: As you pointed

24 out, New York has a goal currently of

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1 50 percent renewable energy by 2030. Can you

2 tell us where we are at this point in that?

3 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Yes, I think one

4 of the -- maybe Senator Krueger raised a

5 similar question. And I'd encourage you to

6 raise that with NYSERDA today. They track

7 more of the compliance towards those targets

8 than DEC does.

9 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: I will,

10 definitely.

11 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

12 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: There's a study

13 you are conducting with NYSERDA regarding how

14 to reach 100 percent renewable. And a

15 report, I assume, will be coming out. Do we

16 have any idea as to when that report will be

17 released to the public?

18 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We're in the

19 late stages of that report now, working with

20 NYSERDA. Expect to release it to the public

21 at some point probably this spring.

22 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Okay. The

23 Governor announced that solar power in

24 New York has increased more than

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1 1,000 percent from 2011 to 2017, and there

2 was more than $2.8 billion in private

3 investment in New York's economy.

4 Do we know what is the percentage of

5 the state's electricity currently coming from

6 solar?

7 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I don't know the

8 percentage. I'm not sure we at DEC know

9 that. Certainly NYSERDA and/or DPS would

10 have a better sense of the percentages.

11 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Because according

12 to U.S. Energy Information Administration

13 Sources, they estimate about 3 percent for

14 wind and solar energy at the current time,

15 which is certainly -- a lot more needs to be

16 done.

17 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Okay.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Also, the

19 administration has talked about the state

20 generating about a quarter of its electricity

21 from renewables. And a large portion of that

22 comes from hydro-generated electricity. Do

23 you know of any hydro-generated electricity

24 projects that have come online within, say,

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1 the last year?

2 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I don't

3 personally know of any new ones that have

4 come online in the last year. I know there's

5 a mix of hydro upstate in the Mohawk and

6 Hudson Valleys, Great Sacandaga. The largest

7 source of hydropower in New York is the

8 Robert Moses Dam, Moses-Saunders Dam up on

9 the St. Lawrence River. It produces an

10 enormous amount of hydro for the state. I

11 believe there's also hydro coming in from --

12 or at least proposed to come in from Quebec.

13 So hydro is an important component of it.

14 I think probably NYSERDA would have a

15 better sense of the actual timing -- or NYPA,

16 for that matter, coming on today as well --

17 the actual timing of various projects that

18 are either under development or when they

19 came into effect.

20 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: I also would

21 agree with your comments that it is going to

22 be absolutely essential for all state

23 agencies to work together and have a plan

24 that will generate reaching the goals that we

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1 set and the benchmarks to see how we're

2 coming along the line to do that.

3 I think that, you know, that needs to

4 be something that I hope we'll see comes

5 about, because I think this is a crisis that

6 we simply cannot ignore in the future. I

7 think it's going to have disastrous impacts

8 upon us.

9 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I agree with

10 you.

11 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Also, it was

12 mentioned by the Senator about the Seneca

13 Lake incinerator project. And first of all,

14 I think that certainly, you know, that is not

15 something that would be described as

16 renewable energy. I think that we should not

17 include that in when we consider renewable

18 energy.

19 Also, I had a project in my own

20 district where an incinerator operated

21 without a permit for some 30 years in the

22 past -- this was in the '70s and the '80s and

23 the '90s -- and with 18 consent orders. And

24 I think DEC in those past administrations

165

1 miserably failed to protect the people in

2 this regard. And I think we're still,

3 50 years later, feeling the consequences of

4 the disaster of those actions.

5 So I think DEC must be very vigilant

6 in terms of making sure that every permit

7 that is required is issued and that there be

8 a real transparency in terms of the

9 procedures and the proceedings, whether it's

10 SEQRA or some other procedure, that the

11 public must be included. And there must be a

12 real transparency. Because what happened in

13 my community illustrates the disastrous

14 results when DEC fails to do that kind of

15 protection.

16 So I certainly would be interested in,

17 you know, what happens in Seneca Lake. That

18 is -- I think, you know, has a tremendous

19 impact on our community.

20 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: You have my

21 commitment to a transparent and vigilant

22 process.

23 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Thank you.

24 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Certainly we are

166

1 required to do that, and we should be doing

2 that.

3 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Thank you.

4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

5 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate?

7 SENATOR KRUEGER: Senator Pam Helming.

8 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you, Senator.

9 Commissioner, thanks again.

10 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Senator.

11 SENATOR HELMING: To the Assemblyman,

12 thank you for your comments and your support

13 regarding Seneca Lake.

14 Just a quick comment on that. So the

15 Article 10 process strips any local

16 decision-making. What it does is it takes it

17 out of the locals' hands and it puts it into

18 the hands of five state agencies, the leaders

19 of those agencies, I believe, and two town

20 representatives.

21 But really what I wanted to get on to

22 was the third topic on my list today, and

23 that is Plan 2014 and the devastating

24 flooding that occurred along the southern

167

1 shores of Lake Ontario this past year. And I

2 want to thank the DEC because you were there

3 helping us during the flooding doing whatever

4 we could to protect.

5 But, Commissioner, I go back to your

6 words that prevention is always the best

7 measure. And along those lines, I'm

8 wondering what type of funding or

9 resources are in this year's budget to help

10 develop resiliency plans for those folks who

11 live or own businesses along the southern

12 shore of Lake Ontario.

13 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, Senator, I

14 agree with you, it's a major issue. Planning

15 for resiliency and carrying that out, mindful

16 of the likelihood of future flooding events,

17 is really important.

18 I mean, we're working very closely

19 with the Department of State, spending monies

20 largely through the EPF on resiliency

21 projects, and have been doing that for

22 several years. There's certain limitations

23 as to how those monies can be spent. EPF

24 money, for example, can't be spent on private

168

1 property. So, you know, when we're talking

2 about resiliency through the EPF, we're

3 talking largely about making municipal or

4 state-owned facilities more resilient. That

5 doesn't help the people in low-lying areas

6 who were subject to flooding.

7 So one of the things that the Governor

8 did several weeks ago was write a letter to

9 the Army Corps regarding the need to take

10 advanced measures on Lake Ontario. It's a

11 program called the Advance Measure Program --

12 I know you're familiar with -- so that the

13 Army Corps can use some of its resources and

14 dollars to put up temporary structures in the

15 event of flooding. Things like dams, levies.

16 When I say temporary, it might be slightly

17 longer than a year or two, even three,

18 because it can last for a longer period of

19 time.

20 So we're encouraging the federal

21 government to step up, spend their money,

22 dedicate their resources to fix those

23 problems. I have a meeting coming up shortly

24 with the colonel in charge of the coastline,

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1 Lake Ontario coastline.

2 The other projects that we have going

3 on on the lake -- you know, we have studies

4 underway not just on Lake Ontario but

5 elsewhere in the Hudson Valley and

6 Mohawk River that have fully characterized

7 the watershed and its impacts and how you can

8 then go spend dollars quickly on those.

9 They're meant to fast-track spending. You

10 see that in the Mohawk Valley. I know that's

11 not your district, but, you know, the MMI

12 studies that we did there facilitated very

13 quick investment on the Sauquoit Creek, where

14 you had a big flash flood last summer. So

15 had we not done those studies, we would have

16 been behind the 8 ball.

17 So my intent is to bring that to Lake

18 Ontario as well, the shoreline there, ensure

19 we understand that --

20 SENATOR HELMING: When? Can you give

21 me some timeline? And also because I don't

22 want to get cut off, I'm going to ask a

23 couple more questions and maybe you could

24 answer it all together.

170

1 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Okay. Okay.

2 SENATOR HELMING: Do the DEC and the

3 Governor have an official position on Plan

4 2014? And how does the DEC feel about the

5 first year of implementation of this plan?

6 Has it been successful, in the DEC's mind, as

7 far as from an environmental impact?

8 Because what I want to just share with

9 you is I stood out there for months, I

10 watched that flooding come up the shore, I

11 watched when it started to recede. And when

12 you talk about environmental impacts and lake

13 quality and protecting lakes, the stuff that

14 was washed back into that lake -- the oils,

15 the toxins, everything from that flooding --

16 it was just devastating. And I'm wondering

17 how the DEC measures the impact to the lake

18 as a result of flooding.

19 Also, when you look at low-lying

20 communities like Sodus Point, I believe in

21 the Edgemere Drive area in Greece, and also

22 in Cayuga County, maybe in the Fair Haven

23 area -- these low-lying areas, their flood

24 threshold is say around 240 feet. The

171

1 trigger point for releasing water, according

2 to Plan 2014, is higher than that.

3 So I'm not a scientist, but common

4 sense tells you that they can always

5 anticipate flooding. And the IJC confirmed

6 that during a public hearing that Senator

7 O'Mara, Assemblyman Bob Oaks, and several

8 other of my colleagues, we held this summer.

9 They acknowledged that we're going to have

10 this flooding, and they put the onus back

11 onto the state DEC, saying that you should be

12 responsible for resiliency plans and

13 protecting your communities.

14 So what are we doing to protect our

15 communities? How are we getting the message

16 out there? What's being done right now,

17 since the water levels are so high and we're

18 going to flood again?

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Right. Well,

20 I'll tell you this. Water levels are above

21 average right now --

22 SENATOR HELMING: Just like last year.

23 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: -- not just in

24 Lake Ontario, but in the entire basin. In my

172

1 view, and in the view of our scientists,

2 likely it's the natural water cycle. There

3 may be more water in the basin, for whatever

4 reason. There's been more snow in the last

5 five or 10 years. So we're dealing with a

6 natural condition.

7 Last year I believe most of the

8 problems we saw were related to that

9 precipitation, some of that runoff.

10 Nonetheless, when we have that much water in

11 the basin, we need to act quickly to release

12 water. I'm happy to report that not only has

13 NYPA increased -- and they'll be able to

14 testify to this later today. Not only have

15 they increased water levels recently in the

16 last few weeks to accelerate water going over

17 the Moses-Saunders Dam to keep the water

18 levels down in the lake, they may I believe

19 today have just increased water levels again

20 and may do so again in the coming weeks.

21 This is -- I would call it a slightly

22 more responsive IJC than we saw last year.

23 My staff met with them three weeks ago. One

24 of the demands that we had was we need you to

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1 start releasing water the minute you see a

2 potential problem coming. And what we've

3 seen since that meeting in fact is three

4 commitments, two or three commitments to

5 reduce water levels by increasing water

6 flows.

7 So today's action is encouraging,

8 unlike last year, when you had extreme

9 flooding in Montreal which really prevented

10 us from letting more water out. That was due

11 in part to the Ottawa River being also very

12 high in flows. You don't have that condition

13 this year. So we have the ability and

14 there's more capacity downstream for us to

15 take action now.

16 And I've been encouraged certainly at

17 least to this point by the IJC's willingness

18 to entertain that and give directives to NYPA

19 to begin increasing those flows. So we don't

20 believe, you know, that this summer will be a

21 repeat of last year's. But right now the

22 data we're seeing is instructing us to do as

23 much as we can to abate that, and I think we

24 are at that point right now.

174

1 SENATOR HELMING: Commissioner, so is

2 that a yes or a no to do the DEC or Governor

3 have an official position on Plan 2014?

4 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: No. So as you

5 may know, Plan 2014 was a federal decision.

6 SENATOR HELMING: Yes.

7 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I spoke a number

8 of times with the federal government,

9 including the White House on a couple of

10 occasions, encouraging them that if they did

11 the program, that they had to merge the

12 program with funding for mitigation.

13 They didn't coordinate with us on the

14 release of the plan itself, and ultimately

15 they came out with a plan that had no

16 mitigation funding along with it. That was a

17 major failure of the IJC, it was a major

18 failure of the prior administration. They

19 should have listened to what we were saying.

20 Regardless of whether or not the water levels

21 were going to be as high as they were, it

22 would have been prudent government to just

23 get the money out there for mitigation

24 projects, because we knew that Plan 2014

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1 would lead to higher highs and lower lows and

2 more damage, and that more investment would

3 have to happen. Instead, they shifted the

4 burden to the state and all of you to come up

5 with the money for those projects.

6 SENATOR HELMING: But reading through

7 the book that, Julie, you gave me in the

8 elevator, the latest publication from the

9 IJC -- you said it came from Lana Pollack --

10 in there I was shocked to see that in

11 New York State -- the IJC held 13 listening

12 sessions. Only two of them were in New York

13 State, and they were way over in Buffalo.

14 And I didn't see in there, but maybe I

15 missed it -- or maybe it is in there -- did

16 New York State officially take that position

17 that you just explained? Was that ever put

18 in writing to the IJC?

19 And also, again, does the DEC consider

20 this first year of the implementation of

21 Plan 2014 as a success? I remember last year

22 I think a similar question was asked by

23 Senator O'Mara on Plan 2014, and I thought

24 the answer had something to do with "this is

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1 necessary to increase wetlands."

2 And my concern is, how do you balance

3 the need to increase wetlands against the

4 detriment to destroying people's homes, their

5 property, and small businesses that have been

6 around for decades?

7 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Mm-hmm. Well,

8 listen, I mean I -- full disclosure, my

9 in-laws have a couple of properties on the

10 river that were heavily impacted last year,

11 so I'm aware of the damage firsthand that

12 resulted from the high water levels.

13 You know, we -- we're at the point

14 where we look back over 10 years of how this

15 Plan 2014, which used to be called Plan BB7,

16 how that came to be. I think there were

17 admirable reasons for some of it being

18 introduced, because, you know, the creation

19 of wetlands generates more business for

20 hunting and fishing and boating and

21 everything else.

22 At the same time, there were and have

23 been concerns raised about the increased

24 damages. And, you know, the meetings that

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1 were held, the stakeholder meetings predated

2 me, I don't think I was in the chamber for --

3 when some of those meetings were happening.

4 Much of the early work on this, when New York

5 State was heavily involved, predates the

6 Cuomo administration. That took place

7 largely in the past administration.

8 But fast forward, do I think Plan 2014

9 has been a success? It's hard to say

10 Plan 2014 has been a success when you had

11 such a high water level in year one. It's

12 probably almost the worst year that they

13 could have launched Plan 2014, because

14 everyone will have connected the conditions

15 we saw, which were natural conditions, with

16 the plan itself -- and the inability,

17 frankly, of the IJC to quickly pivot, quickly

18 make decisions and remain transparent and

19 remain sympathetic to the needs of homeowners

20 over shipping interests and other interests.

21 So I don't think year one was a

22 success by any stretch. We've told that to

23 the IJC. I had them in my office telling

24 them that. The letter that we sent to them

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1 demanded more accountability and transparency

2 this year, and faster decision-making.

3 Ultimately, it's the federal government

4 decision to proceed with Plan 2014 or not.

5 Until they make a different determination,

6 it's our job as a state to ensure they're

7 letting water out quickly, regularly, and

8 protecting homeowners and the lakeshore.

9 SENATOR HELMING: Right now the

10 Governor is attacking the federal government

11 on every single issue. I'd like to see some

12 pressure put on the federal government about

13 Plan 2014 and getting that changed.

14 I mean, again, it all goes back to

15 those higher highs and those lower lows. We

16 know as a fact even normal weather conditions

17 are going to result in flooding in some of

18 our communities.

19 Thank you.

20 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

21 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

22 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS: Hi, Commissioner.

23 One, I want to say thank you very much

24 for the cooperative and immensely helpful

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1 efforts by DEC during the flooding last

2 spring, summer, fall of Lake Ontario, because

3 so many people were needing immediate help.

4 And I know your permitting process, you know,

5 you did probably 10 times as many as you

6 would normally do in a season. And so thank

7 you for that.

8 I think once we've gotten beyond that

9 flood stage, though, I would say that we're

10 slower to respond, and obviously you moving

11 more to your normal process of, you know,

12 looking at things. But I do have the concern

13 that we are about where we were a year ago.

14 And there are people trying to do some

15 resiliency projects, but we're not getting

16 fast enough the approvals from DEC.

17 So some to comments perhaps that

18 Senator O'Mara talked to in a general sense,

19 but clearly we're seeing that now as a

20 possibility for this coming year again. And

21 so just that concern of responding to those.

22 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: We certainly

23 learned a great deal last year about our

24 capabilities. And I think we issued

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1 something like 3,000 or 4,000 permits within

2 48 hours of receipt, which is an

3 extraordinarily undertaking. We shifted many

4 of our permitting folks from other regions,

5 we actually surged them into lakeshore areas.

6 We had opened up some permitting offices, we

7 were, you know, literally right at the

8 lakeshore proximate to people's homes.

9 So we learned quite a bit about our

10 capabilities, our ability to turn around

11 permits quickly -- again, 3,000 or 4,000, I

12 don't have the exact number offhand, 3,000 or

13 4,000 permits that we got out there, and have

14 begun to coordinate internally in preparation

15 for the next summer, for the next potential

16 event. And I'm hoping that we're not going

17 to see another return to last year. But

18 we'll be ready again to run those permits

19 through.

20 And I think if there are individual

21 resiliency projects that aren't getting the

22 attention they need in this interim period,

23 people should just pick up the phone and call

24 me -- call us. And I'm eager to see these

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1 projects move forward as quickly as possible.

2 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS: One of the

3 things -- I know Senator Helming just talked

4 about somewhat Plan 2014, obviously. I guess

5 one of the things that I would look at is one

6 of the weaknesses of it. You just talked

7 about going to greater outflow, which is a

8 positive, I applaud that, whatever. But my

9 understanding is that's about 9 inches below

10 a trigger level which would normally say "get

11 going."

12 And so that seems to be, in my sense,

13 an inherent problem with the plan, is that

14 the way the trigger levels have been done, it

15 anticipates -- or expects there will be

16 flooding and doesn't anticipate the ability.

17 And so I like what, you know, is being

18 done, but again my concern would be that the

19 plan itself, if we aren't doing, you know,

20 your type of advocacy and others at this

21 point, that the plan would allow us to be

22 back to or at least have the greater threat

23 of the flooding that we --

24 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Well, I'll tell

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1 you, I mean, the plan may need to be modified

2 in certain ways. I mean, there may need to

3 be greater safeguards for trigger levels.

4 And I think that's a conversation that we

5 would be willing to have. I've got

6 Great Lakes staff who know this issue very

7 well and are willing to get involved and

8 address trigger levels.

9 You know, I agree with you -- I mean,

10 we're spending an enormous amount of time

11 advocating for action now. I mean, NYPA is

12 very aggressive on this as well. The

13 Governor is aggressive on it. We're all

14 aggressive on it. But I think that

15 ultimately it has to run itself. And after

16 year one, let's see what year two brings us.

17 If we're not seeing the right kinds of

18 responses, then I think we're going to need

19 to at least get some more flexibility from

20 the federal government.

21 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS: I'm sure you'll

22 have some eager legislators from that area to

23 work with you on that.

24 Jumping, actually, to another point

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1 that's been brought up, the proposed

2 incinerator in the Finger Lakes. You said

3 that you haven't received it yet. When you

4 get it, you'll give it your normal fair

5 hearing.

6 I know the concern is obviously

7 there's been a lot of opposition at the local

8 level. The company I believe started out

9 going the local route for approval; seeing

10 that that wasn't going to be likely, moved to

11 the Article 10 process. And, you know, the

12 major concern, I know Article 10 allows some

13 input, but decision-making is not -- is taken

14 out of the hands of the local area.

15 Just hope that, you know, the local

16 input will be taken extremely seriously. And

17 I think others have laid out some of the

18 concerns with that.

19 I guess I just have a general comment.

20 Do we know, since Article 10 became law, how

21 many projects have been approved in the

22 state?

23 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: I couldn't give

24 you the exact statistic offhand. I know the

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1 first wind project is just getting through

2 Article 10 right now. I'm not aware of

3 another incinerator project that has come

4 into Article 10. I'd have to get you

5 statistics on that. Some of my successors

6 today might be able to answer that more

7 specifically. But it's probably a relatively

8 low number.

9 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS: Thank you,

10 Commissioner.

11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Commissioner, I

12 know you've addressed some of the components

13 of the Clean Water Infrastructure Act of last

14 year, and I just had a question about one of

15 the components. It also -- the act includes

16 $200 million for projects in the New York

17 City watershed. And I want to know if you

18 could share with us what projects are under

19 consideration, and what's the timeline for

20 these projects?

21 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: So we're working

22 very closely with New York City DEP on this.

23 I'd have to give you a follow-up on that as

24 to where each of the projects is in the

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1 pipeline.

2 But we have been, frankly, talking

3 with DEP for the better part of 25 years on

4 projects in the watershed, in the memorandum

5 of understanding that really charted out the

6 upstate -- the protection of the reservoir

7 system and the filtration avoidance

8 determination. We want those projects to

9 ultimately support that effort. There are

10 other major projects within the five boroughs

11 helping them comply with the consent orders

12 that we have on the books on wastewater

13 discharges, green infrastructure.

14 But I can give you a follow-up email

15 as to exactly where all those projects are.

16 I'd be happy to.

17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

18 Thank you for being here today.

19 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you.

20 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay. I think that

21 we're done with the questioning. So we

22 really appreciate you, Commissioner, for

23 being here today.

24 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Thank you,

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1 Senator.

2 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: And thank you, and

3 look forward to continuing to work with you.

4 COMMISSIONER SEGGOS: Likewise. Good

5 to see you all. Thanks.

6 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

7 Our next speaker is Commissioner Rose

8 Harvey, from the New York State Office of

9 Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation.

10 (Discussion off the record.)

11 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Careful,

12 Commissioner.

13 Welcome.

14 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Thank you.

15 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Look forward to

16 your testimony.

17 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: It was a quick

18 transition.

19 Good morning. Good morning,

20 Chairwoman Young, Chairwoman Weinstein,

21 Senator Funke and Assemblyman O'Donnell, and

22 all the distinguished members of the State

23 Legislature. Thanks for inviting me to give

24 this testimony.

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1 As commissioner of Parks, Recreation

2 and Historic Preservation, I oversee

3 New York's outstanding system of 250

4 individual state parks, historic sites, boat

5 launches and recreational trails. And I'm

6 also very fortunate to lead an incredibly

7 talented, dedicated and hardworking staff who

8 take great pride in caring for their

9 properties and providing meaningful

10 experiences to all our visitors.

11 We New Yorkers are united in the

12 belief that public parkland deeply benefits

13 ourselves, our society, our community, our

14 state. Parks are our common ground. They're

15 the lands, the refuges, the open space, the

16 history that belong to all of us and benefit

17 all of us.

18 The park system had a very robust year

19 in 2017. Despite a very rainy peak season

20 and extensive flooding along Lake Ontario, we

21 welcomed more than 71 million visitors,

22 continuing the system's steady increase in

23 attendance since 2011 -- 14 million, a total

24 23 percent increase. Also a recent economic

188

1 impact study commissioned by Parks & Trails

2 New York showed that our system annually

3 supports $5 billion in output and sales,

4 54,000 private-sector jobs, and more than

5 $2.8 billion in additional state GDP. And

6 that's an increase from previous studies.

7 That is, every dollar spent by or on behalf

8 of State Parks generates $9 in sales

9 statewide.

10 The 2018-'19 Executive Budget provides

11 for excellent stewardship for the lands and

12 the historic sites entrusted to our care,

13 while maintaining the fiscal discipline

14 needed in uncertain times. It provides level

15 funding for agency operations and programs,

16 continues our baseline $90 million annual

17 capital appropriation, and maintains the

18 Environmental Protection Fund at its historic

19 high.

20 The capital allocation will continue

21 through our NY Parks 2020 initiative, and

22 will continue to reverse decades of decline

23 and neglect in our parks and transform and

24 modernize them for the 21st century. Since

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1 the Governor launched this initiative, this

2 $900 million multiyear investment, with your

3 huge support -- and we're very thankful for

4 that -- we have initiated more than 700

5 improvement projects across the state, with

6 more than 60 percent directed at rebuilding

7 deteriorated infrastructure, reopening

8 formerly closed facilities, rehabilitating

9 underused facilities and structures, and

10 weaving in resiliency throughout that and

11 emphasizing stewardship projects.

12 As well, in partnership with the

13 National Park Service and the City of

14 New York, it's our intention to open a new

15 State Park in Jamaica Bay in Brooklyn,

16 hopefully in 2019, as part of the Governor's

17 Vital Brooklyn initiative.

18 In the first preliminary phase, the

19 state will invest up to $15 million to open

20 the site to the public, creating 3.5 miles of

21 waterfront paths and trails and new places

22 for biking, hiking, kayaking and fishing for

23 communities that have very little parkland.

24 In fully funding the EPF, the

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1 Executive Budget will enhance and is

2 crucially important to the stewardship of our

3 state's natural and cultural resources, and

4 it will help us connect more people to the

5 environment.

6 Schools in every part of the state are

7 taking advantage of the Connect Kids to Parks

8 grant program, which provides particularly

9 Title 1 school districts free educational

10 field trips to our parks, our historic sites,

11 and DEC environmental centers. State Parks

12 now reaches 250,000 schoolchildren annually

13 in its education program, and that's up from

14 75,000 in 2011.

15 Our Division for Historic Preservation

16 continues to lead the nation in its

17 preservation programming. This past year we

18 added over 1,500 properties to the National

19 Register of Historic Places, which in turn

20 brings and is a gateway to protections and

21 preservation initiatives for these sites that

22 are so important to our state history.

23 Last year the State Historic

24 Preservation Office reviewed 18,000

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1 submissions for potential impacts to cultural

2 resources, and we dropped our review time

3 down to an average of 10 days, and that is

4 with our new digital CRIS system.

5 Governor Cuomo's 2013 enhancements to

6 the State Historic Rehabilitation Tax Credit

7 Program, with really strong support from the

8 Legislature, helped trigger $3.6 billion in

9 investment in historic commercial properties,

10 with over two-thirds of those upstate. We're

11 also proud to announce that this year alone,

12 New York State once again led the nation with

13 a record $1.2 billion in tax credit

14 investments in our state.

15 Despite their success, the state

16 historic tax credits were diminished in the

17 overhaul of the federal tax code. With our

18 program tied directly to the federal program,

19 we're currently evaluating opportunities to

20 decouple the state program so it operates

21 independently, reauthorize the program to

22 restore investor confidence, and examine

23 enhancements that would maintain investment

24 in the state and mitigate against the

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1 negative impact the federal tax reform

2 process has created in all states.

3 Last January, Governor Cuomo announced

4 the creation of the Empire State Trail, a

5 750-mile bicycling and walking trail spanning

6 New York State. It will connect to and

7 connect together the state's very special and

8 unique natural and cultural resources. And

9 as well, it will promote safe, healthy

10 outdoor recreation, enhance community

11 vitality, and support tourism-based economic

12 development.

13 Considerable progress has been made,

14 including release of the Empire State Trail

15 Plan and a detailed design guide. Parks is

16 in construction of 30 miles right now that

17 will soon be finished, and engineering

18 designs are in process for more than 60 trail

19 projects.

20 As well, the Governor has announced a

21 $50 million commitment to complete the

22 Hudson River Park, and that will be in

23 partnership with New York City.

24 So thank you. Thank you again for

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1 your commitment to our magnificent state park

2 system and all our historic preservation

3 programs. Thank you for the dollars invested

4 into this system to help provide a safe place

5 to be active and healthy, and also to learn

6 how to be healthy and active -- to build mind

7 and muscle, to strengthen social bonds, and

8 to gain a greater understanding of our

9 natural and our cultural and our historic

10 heritage. These dollars are an investment in

11 New York's health, and they're an investment

12 in New York's economy, and they're an

13 investment in our communities.

14 So thank you again very, very much for

15 all that you do, and I welcome your

16 questions. I hope I welcome your questions.

17 (Laughter.)

18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

19 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you,

20 Commissioner, for that.

21 I do have a couple of questions. So

22 the Executive Budget recommends a net

23 decrease of $8 million, for a total of

24 $200.7 million in total capital funding for

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1 the parks. And so in recent years the Office

2 of Parks has received a significant amount in

3 capital funding, including $92.5 million

4 proposed for this coming fiscal year.

5 Can you provide a list of the projects

6 planned over the next fiscal year? And we

7 ask this question every year, and it's very

8 difficult to get the list. So it would be

9 very helpful if you could get that for us.

10 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: We can,

11 absolutely. We're in, you know, the process.

12 It's a multiyear, many-phase program; we're

13 in the third phase. We're working out all of

14 the particulars. And we can and will.

15 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: When will we get

16 the list?

17 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: We're working on

18 it right now, and we'll get it to you as soon

19 as -- very soon, I'm sure.

20 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: And see, that -- in

21 all due respect, Commissioner, that's the

22 problem that we have every year, is that

23 we're putting a budget together, we're being

24 asked to vote on a budget, and yet we don't

195

1 have the detail on how the money would be

2 spent. And when we do get a list, it's far

3 beyond when the budget is passed, typically.

4 So why can't we get a list before the

5 budget is passed on the projects?

6 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: We are -- I

7 mean, first is we're making sure that, you

8 know, we've got the right list and, you know,

9 some projects are phased and so forth and so

10 on. But then we'll give it to the

11 administration. And we're very close, so I'm

12 very optimistic that you will get it very

13 soon.

14 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Before the budget

15 is passed?

16 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: I -- I will give

17 it -- we hope so. We hope so.

18 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay. Can you give

19 us an update, a detailed update on the status

20 of the Empire State Trail?

21 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: It's -- it's --

22 we've got the route and we've had many public

23 meetings about that, talked to a lot of

24 communities. We actually, in creating the

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1 route, also talked to many communities in

2 terms of choosing it. We have the design.

3 And we are in construction on 30 miles now,

4 that's Parks. And there -- we have gained

5 control of a 31-mile private property which

6 was really crucial, and we've got 60

7 engineering projects going in design. And as

8 you know, some of it will be by DOT, some of

9 it will be by NYPA, some by the Hudson River

10 Greenway, and some by Parks. So that we can

11 be very efficient and the agencies that own

12 the land can do the construction.

13 So it's moving. It's moving well.

14 And we have great local support.

15 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay, thank you.

16 You and I had a good conversation

17 recently about Zoar Valley, which is in

18 Western New York, and it's a very wild area.

19 And every year we have tragedies that occur

20 there, people get lost, people fall in the

21 gorge and get killed, we've had incidents

22 where, you know, someone at the top has

23 thrown logs over the side, hit someone in the

24 head below and killed them.

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1 And the most recent very tragic

2 incident dealt with a young couple who took

3 their two young children there, and the

4 parents fell to their deaths.

5 The Parks Police has joined in with

6 the DEC, local law enforcement, the

7 State Troopers over the years to patrol

8 sporadically Zoar Valley. But I believe that

9 the state could do many things to make it a

10 safer area. We can't legislate common sense,

11 and sometimes some of the things that happen

12 there seem to lack common sense, and that's

13 the cause. But at the same time I think we

14 need to do more.

15 And as you know, I was looking at

16 putting in legislation to make it a state

17 park. I know that probably isn't realistic.

18 But I want to draw attention to the fact that

19 we have Zoar Valley. So could you comment on

20 that and some of the safety issues that we

21 see there? And what would the parks role be,

22 in addition to the DEC, in helping address

23 those safety issues?

24 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: We're very happy

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1 to work with DEC. DEC operates and manages

2 it, but we work very closely together, and we

3 will sit down with Basil and all of his staff

4 and think about how we can support each

5 other. Both agencies are -- we support each

6 other all the time, in the ways that are most

7 efficient, and we'd be very happy to work

8 with them.

9 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman

11 O'Donnell, chair of Tourism.

12 ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL: Good

13 morning -- good afternoon. I just want to

14 thank you for your responsiveness to me and

15 my office -- {mic turned on}. Oh, here it

16 goes. I want to thank you for your

17 responsiveness.

18 I have a few short questions. The

19 first one will have to do with staffing.

20 There are 14 additional FTEs in this budget,

21 but there had been a decrease of 500 FTEs

22 over the last decade. And so my question

23 both is is 14 enough, and where will they go,

24 those 14?

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1 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Those 14 are

2 actually on a federal grant, and will

3 primarily work on historic preservation

4 issues.

5 And we could always, everybody could

6 always use more staff, but we are working

7 very efficiently and we have introduced -- I

8 guess necessity is the mother of invention

9 and efficiency. We're trying to reduce our

10 costs through automation, so that frees up

11 more staff to do other things. We're

12 lowering our energy costs. We're increasing

13 the number of partnerships that we have with

14 many local groups and concessionaires. You

15 know, if we have restaurants, they'll run the

16 restaurants.

17 And we just did a deal with Major

18 League Baseball at Roberto Clemente State

19 Park, where they're going to run, for seven

20 years, an academy of tutoring in baseball and

21 softball for young boys and girls.

22 So we're leveraging our resources.

23 And we are becoming more efficient.

24 ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL: Okay. As you

200

1 know, I was not a big fan of the trails that

2 we provided $200 million last year for. My

3 issue is primarily the ones from Albany to

4 Buffalo are primarily state-owned or

5 local-government-owned properties, but the

6 ones between Albany and New York City are

7 not. And so I know that you are acquiring

8 right-of-ways. Do you have to pay for the

9 right-of-way?

10 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: No. In fact,

11 when we looked at -- last year we spent a lot

12 of time in the field trying to find a route

13 from New York City to Albany that would use

14 existing municipal trails. And with the

15 exception of the one large long linear

16 property that we acquired, almost all of it

17 is publicly owned in one way or the other.

18 We really tried to minimize private

19 ownership. And for the 31 miles that we

20 acquired, we got a donation. We kind of

21 worked on it before we announced the route.

22 So there will be some small

23 connections, but a very small part of the

24 trail. And then the trail is about

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1 70 percent off-road, but then where there

2 weren't obvious off-road connections -- and

3 that's actually more from Albany to Canada --

4 it's on-road using existing state bike

5 trails.

6 So we've minimized that. So a very --

7 it will be a de minimis amount of the cost

8 for land acquisition.

9 ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL: So if it's

10 possible, I would like you to inform me if

11 any public funds are expended to obtain a

12 right-of-way, and who is the recipient of

13 that funding.

14 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: I would be happy

15 to.

16 ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL: Okay.

17 Let me talk about the Connect for Kids

18 program. As you know, I represent a very

19 urban environment. And kids in New York City

20 tend to be more disconnected from the great

21 outdoors than, you know, people in the

22 North Country like my husband. So the

23 question is is how are you doing outreach in

24 the urban environments to ensure that both

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1 the schools and the teachers and the people

2 involved know of this program? And, you

3 know, it's a lot harder -- if you live in

4 Glens Falls, to get access to a state park is

5 pretty easy. If you live in Harlem, other

6 than Riverbank State Park, which I'm not

7 going to address with you, there's not really

8 that access.

9 So how is that working and where is it

10 working in the City of New York?

11 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: So first of all,

12 we have targeted inner city communities. And

13 we've targeted those communities that have

14 the least amount of open space -- high

15 poverty, obesity, asthma, diabetes, health

16 issues related to either a sedentary

17 lifestyle or just not getting out into parks.

18 So with respect to that, we also

19 improved all our nature centers or our

20 community centers that are nearer those

21 communities, and then we launched

22 Connect Kids. And when we launched

23 Connect Kids, we made busing available for

24 those schools that couldn't take public

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1 transportation or, you know, it wouldn't

2 work. And in the second year of this, we

3 have 60,000 additional kids now coming to all

4 those improved nature centers or recreational

5 centers. And we also -- those are the ones

6 that we staff. So that the teachers know

7 that there's somebody there that will give

8 the programming, so they'll be encouraged.

9 And we're now opening it up to summer camps.

10 In New York City, we have the Taconic

11 Outdoor Education Center. Now, that's a long

12 distance; it's probably 35 minutes north,

13 45 minutes north of the city. But we have

14 two overnight programs. And we have about

15 10,000 kids, most of them from New York City,

16 that go and use that.

17 We also have Riverbank and Roberto

18 Clemente that are in the heart of the city.

19 We're working actually with buses, with the

20 bus system, to get better bus service. But

21 actually at Riverbank, the bus stops in

22 Riverbank now for the kids, which is good and

23 bad in some ways.

24 So we are doing everything possible to

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1 create the programs, create the atmosphere

2 and then provide the access. And anything

3 you all can do -- and we do send this to your

4 offices, the applications and the programs --

5 would be great, you know, to promote it.

6 Because you all make it happen --

7 ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL: Well, the

8 second floor is not really noted for

9 cooperation with Assemblymembers. But I

10 would encourage you to do that, because the

11 local people know where and how and who the

12 people are. And I'm not sure that most of my

13 colleagues are fully aware that this program

14 exists. So I would encourage you to do that.

15 Now let me talk a little bit about the

16 Governor's budget speech, where he allocated

17 $50 million to finish the Hudson River Park

18 thing. And it was almost laughable, the idea

19 that $50 million would complete that park.

20 Do you actually believe that?

21 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: I do. But I

22 don't believe it's just the $50 million. If

23 you look at what is going to start this year

24 at the Hudson River Park, you're going to see

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1 close to $500 million of work that's going

2 on with money that was previously allocated

3 and is now coming forward. You've got the

4 $50 million, and we are looking for a

5 partnership with New York City as well.

6 And finally, there are some of the

7 places where an RFP and a private developer

8 could work as well.

9 So I think the combination of all of

10 that really will result in the build-out of

11 the Hudson River Park.

12 ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL: Well, many

13 people who live adjacent to it simply think

14 that's not enough. And I'm not in a position

15 to wager or say whether it is or it isn't,

16 but it's a commonly held belief that that

17 statement of the Governor was -- let's just

18 say hyperbole. Okay?

19 So we're committed, we remain

20 committed to finish that project, and it's

21 very important to the Assembly. I want to

22 make sure that we actually get to do that.

23 My last question has to do with

24 Jamaica Bay State Park. I was a little

206

1 surprised to learn that this money is being

2 allocated for land that we don't own. And I

3 was informed by you and your staff that

4 that's actually not uncommon, that there are

5 places where the state spends money where we

6 don't actually own the land.

7 So I would like to know where those

8 places are. And, you know, I can tell you

9 when we try to allocate capital money for

10 things in our districts, if it's not owned,

11 you can't get any money. So I'm trying to

12 wrap my head around the idea, as much as this

13 seems to be a beautiful place, to spend

14 $15 million on land that we don't own.

15 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: We will

16 essentially get control of it. And it's

17 owned by the federal government. And we will

18 enter into an agreement whereby we have

19 control over it, and then ultimately a lease.

20 And we have done this with quite a

21 few -- I mean, Four Freedoms State Park is a,

22 you know, lease over land that's owned by the

23 city. Buffalo Harbor is -- actually the new

24 state park is also a lease; the property is

207

1 owned and operated by a subsidiary of ESD.

2 So we have -- we definitely have quite a few

3 case examples of it and --

4 ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL: Well, can you

5 get me a list of them so I can read them and

6 understand them a little better?

7 And my real question has to do with

8 the expenditure of money before or after

9 getting control. So if we're going to expend

10 this money, is the time that we expend the

11 money, is that after we've been given control

12 or are we expending the money and then they

13 give us control?

14 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: No. We're

15 working on deals right now to get control.

16 ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL: Okay. Could I

17 please get copies or information about that

18 process?

19 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yes.

20 ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL: And once

21 again, I wasn't really on the record; I just

22 want to thank you for being so accessible to

23 me and my staff. I very much appreciate it.

24 Thank you.

208

1 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: And thank you

2 for all that you've done.

3 SENATOR O'MARA: Senator Krueger.

4 SENATOR KRUEGER: Good afternoon,

5 Commissioner. Nice to see you.

6 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Good morning --

7 afternoon.

8 SENATOR KRUEGER: So you talked about

9 the 14 additional FTEs from the federal

10 grants being used for historic preservation.

11 But our notes from Department of Budget is

12 that they would be used for land and water

13 conservation and the Great Lakes restoration.

14 Are there two different 14 FTE assignments?

15 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: No. Actually --

16 I don't want to admit this publicly -- I'm

17 probably wrong. I thought they were. I'll

18 check and I'll get back.

19 SENATOR KRUEGER: Okay, thank you.

20 But following up on the historic

21 properties -- and you talked about in your

22 testimony the fact that the Governor's budget

23 intends to defer the tax credits on historic

24 property rehab. I know that goes through the

209

1 Tax Department, not you, but you referenced

2 the program in your testimony. So I'm

3 wondering whether you are hearing, as at

4 least some of us are, that this deferral for

5 several years of the tax credit would cause

6 an enormous amount of problems out there in

7 communities.

8 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: The five-year on

9 the federal tax credit would dramatically

10 change also the state program, because we

11 mirror or attach to it.

12 So we are -- all of the tax credits

13 and tax programs are all rolled together

14 right now, but we have been working with

15 Tax & Finance and, you know, suggesting

16 provisions that would help ameliorate some of

17 the reductions of the benefits caused by the

18 federal program.

19 And also our state tax credits expire

20 at the end of 2019, so it's the right time to

21 start considering all of this to give

22 investors assurance that it will go forward.

23 SENATOR KRUEGER: So you think you

24 have some ideas on how to fix this program?

210

1 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Well, the Parks,

2 Recreation and Historic Preservation do. And

3 they -- again, all the tax provisions are

4 together, but they definitely have our ideas.

5 SENATOR KRUEGER: Jumping to another

6 urban park, the Hudson River Park in

7 Manhattan -- it's not technically in my

8 district, it's across the road, so to speak.

9 So the Governor talked about $50 million to

10 help build out the remainder of the park. I

11 believe he talked about that 77 percent is

12 complete, with 23 percent remaining. I think

13 the park's trustees say 30 percent remaining,

14 and they believe they need $200 million.

15 But can you tell me what you're

16 planning to do with the new $50 million

17 commitment to the Hudson River Park?

18 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Pier 97, which

19 is a very high priority for the community

20 board, who has contacted us, will be the

21 single largest expenditure. And then

22 Morton-Clarkston, bulkhead. And 66A, a

23 repair there. Some environmental

24 improvements, reefs and pilings being used as

211

1 habitat. And then a pedestrian walkway up

2 around 97, 98, which is on the upland portion

3 of it. Those are the first thoughts on how

4 it would be used.

5 SENATOR KRUEGER: And does that go

6 through the process of the trustees deciding

7 what they prioritize or --

8 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yes. Yes.

9 SENATOR KRUEGER: -- does the state

10 decide?

11 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yes, absolutely,

12 it will -- and it already has. I mean, we've

13 been working closely with them.

14 SENATOR KRUEGER: What do you see --

15 at one point in time there was some giant

16 amount for capital money needed by the parks?

17 Where are we now on that giant amount versus

18 what we're doing?

19 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: We are -- it's

20 amazingly positive. We -- the Governor in

21 2012 made $900 million available, much of

22 that through the baseline of $90 million per

23 year. And we have spent, or it's in

24 construction, about $700 million. And you're

212

1 really feeling it and you're really seeing

2 it.

3 And we are focused on that platform of

4 the infrastructure, but also we had so many

5 boarded-up buildings and closed facilities,

6 and we're opening them up and then also

7 providing new buildings. We're connecting

8 the parks so that we can automate, so we can

9 bring it back into the 21st -- bring it

10 forward to the 21st century.

11 SENATOR KRUEGER: I'm out of time, but

12 define "automating" parks?

13 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Well -- no, no,

14 fear not.

15 (Laughter.)

16 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: It's -- if you

17 think about Parks 2020, it's to restore its

18 historic and its natural grandeur, but

19 modernize it and make it more relevant.

20 So with respect to automating, we're

21 an all-cash system, so we can't -- we don't

22 know who's coming, who's not coming. So it's

23 to have point of sale. We're not connected,

24 you know, just electric. Just to use

213

1 computers, connecting them, so that we can

2 come into the 21st century. And also attract

3 concessions, you know, along the way.

4 So it's -- we have pay and display.

5 When you come into our parks, you had to wait

6 in line for cash. So now our Empire

7 Passports that you can acquire have an RFID

8 chip so you can just go insert it and get

9 into our parks. So they're more accessible,

10 they're more easy.

11 So -- but first and foremost is the

12 land, the oceans, the forests, the history,

13 the architecture, all of that.

14 SENATOR KRUEGER: Thank you very much.

15 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS: Assemblyman

16 Englebright.

17 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Good

18 morning, Commissioner.

19 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Good morning.

20 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Or it's

21 actually afternoon.

22 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: I know, I

23 can't --

24 (Laughter.)

214

1 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: So I'm very

2 intrigued about the Jamaica Bay State Park.

3 As you know, when Robert Moses built the

4 circumferential parkway in 1938, he cut off

5 most of the city from this extraordinary

6 resource. And it was only later that first

7 New York City and then the federal government

8 started to get involved. But State Parks has

9 never been involved. How did this come

10 about? Where is it? How large is the

11 parcel? And who initiated this, was it from

12 the feds or was it from your office?

13 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: No, it's really

14 Governor Cuomo in his Vital Brooklyn

15 initiative. And in that initiative we work

16 to provide better healthcare, affordable

17 housing and open space. And we're, through

18 partnerships with the city, providing

19 probably 10 acres of small 1-acre parcels in

20 the neighborhoods where everybody lives,

21 plays and works.

22 But the Governor was really interested

23 in providing a real open space, a real park

24 for Brooklyn, because there really isn't.

215

1 The amount of vacant space was just small

2 pieces.

3 So it is in the northeast section of

4 Jamaica Bay. And it's right across from

5 Kennedy. It's 408 acres. And it's owned by

6 the federal government because they acquired

7 it as just one of the parcels for Jamaica Bay

8 Recreational Area. It is a landfill that was

9 formally capped and run and operated by

10 New York City. And it was one of the few --

11 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Is this the

12 Fountain Avenue landfill?

13 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yeah, Penn and

14 Fountain.

15 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Okay.

16 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: And it's

17 beautiful. And it was capped in a visionary

18 way where they anticipated that this could be

19 a park in the future back in the '90s, and so

20 they capped it with a level of fill that's

21 cleaner than any landfill anywhere in the

22 country. And they didn't put the methane

23 pipes, they have manholes. And it's

24 extraordinary. It's got 3.5 miles of

216

1 shorefront, and it's fenced off.

2 And we have a really great partnership

3 with the city, who is thrilled at this

4 thought, as we do with the federal -- with

5 the National Park Service, though they have

6 a, you know, long process. So everybody is

7 for it. There's a community. All of the

8 community had always wanted it to be a park.

9 So the challenge will just be going through

10 the processes to get it going.

11 And DEC actually regulated the

12 landfill, and they've been at our side with

13 all of that. Department of Health has been

14 at our side, reviewed everything. It's a

15 real clean slate of, you know, health. It

16 would be a -- really one of the first of its

17 kind, and it would contribute mightily to

18 those communities.

19 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: I

20 congratulate you for being bold. This is a

21 huge portion of our New York City population

22 that has been denied meaningful access except

23 for a few occasions and circumstances. But

24 we'll follow this with great interest.

217

1 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: It may take a

2 little time to work it, yeah.

3 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Of course it

4 will take time.

5 But it's a fascinating new chapter in

6 State Parks history, as Jamaica Bay was for

7 the National Parks. When Gateway was

8 invented, there was a great deal of

9 controversy. And we don't need to go over it

10 again now, but given that there had been such

11 controversy, it's complimentary to your

12 agency and to the Governor to be bold enough

13 to step in this direction. So I just want to

14 compliment you there.

15 Speaking of new directions, we had a

16 resident curator program that we've talked

17 about in the past and that you were in the

18 process of implementing with new legislative

19 authorization. How is that doing?

20 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: It's a great

21 program. And it's -- we still -- we had

22 three possible candidates for it and put out

23 an RFP. We didn't get any responses,

24 partially because two of the houses were

218

1 pretty far gone, and so it required quite a

2 bit of investment. And the notion of this

3 program is of a 40-year lease in return for

4 rehabilitating old and historic houses.

5 So we may try it again. We went out

6 with the Susan B. Anthony. We didn't get any

7 responses. Thanks to Assemblywoman Woerner

8 and Senator Betty Little, they've given us

9 each 150, and we're going to put in 150, and

10 we're going to fix it up and then go back out

11 to see if we get it at a level where somebody

12 would invest to finish it.

13 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: So it's a

14 work in progress. That's encouraging also.

15 Let me just say that the Empire State

16 Trail is an interesting initiative also on a

17 grand scale. My concern is it had left out

18 Long Island. I just want to ask you again to

19 try to factor Long Island into it as you

20 flesh out that program. We have a

21 significant portion of the state's population

22 that could be served by bringing the trail

23 into the coastal New York area, not just down

24 the Hudson Valley.

219

1 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: And know that we

2 are. And we're busily also creating quite a

3 few bike trials from Jones Beach up to

4 Captree, all the way beyond, working with

5 DOT. And we're going to look. You know,

6 this is phase one. Long Island will be phase

7 two.

8 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Okay. I'll

9 hold you to that.

10 The Zoos, Botanical Gardens and

11 Aquariums Program is basically a partnership

12 program with the private not-for-profit parks

13 of the state. My urgent request is that you

14 use your voice as part of the cabinet to help

15 bring us back to the level that we had at the

16 last -- in the current year, in the last

17 budget. So we're $2.5 million shy of that

18 presently. You don't need to respond, but

19 please take that request back and see if you

20 can help, as we go into the negotiations, to

21 open the door toward restoring that level of

22 funding.

23 Finally, the 1500 new listings in the

24 National Register. You're the State Historic

220

1 Preservation Officer, you oversee that.

2 Congratulations, that's wonderful.

3 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: And I reflect it

4 back to our amazing Historic Preservation

5 Bureau.

6 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Which is a

7 national model. So thank you for the good

8 work that you do.

9 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you,

10 Commissioner, for being here today, for your

11 testimony, and for the good working

12 relationship that many of us have with your

13 office.

14 A couple of questions of local concern

15 to me. We've worked for several years now on

16 Sampson State Park. Can you give us an

17 update? Is there any money in the budget

18 this year for improvements to that marina

19 facility there?

20 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yes. We -- that

21 marina is, as you know, in a serious state of

22 disrepair. So we did do a second RFP, and

23 we're going to put up to $2.5 million in

24 infrastructure improvements. And we did get

221

1 a bid. And we're hoping that that would work

2 out and then that the bidder would finish it

3 and basically completely refurbish it, and

4 also some cabins in the area.

5 And we have not yet taken it through

6 the Comptroller and the Attorney General for

7 their approval, but we're working on it.

8 SENATOR O'MARA: When do you expect

9 that part of the process to start?

10 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: We're trying to

11 move this. So probably -- I'm hoping by the

12 fall we'll get in, and maybe sooner.

13 SENATOR O'MARA: Well, is that going

14 to require any special legislation for the

15 length of the lease involved there? Have we

16 done that already?

17 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: No. I mean yes.

18 The -- I do believe we need a 40-year lease

19 on the Seneca Lake, because it's two, it's

20 been packaged, Sampson and Seneca. And I do

21 believe that legislation has been introduced

22 or will be introduced. So we do need that

23 for this bid to go forward.

24 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. I'll look for

222

1 that and work on that together with you.

2 Seemingly a lot of progress at Watkins

3 Glen State Park over the last two years. And

4 our status is supposed to be opening this

5 spring. Can you give us a final update on

6 where we are there?

7 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yes. I'm so

8 excited, we're going to open this spring.

9 We've completely redone the traffic and the

10 circulation with the town, moved all the --

11 bought five houses, tiny little houses, and

12 put the parking across the street. We've

13 entirely greened the entrance. We're going

14 to reopen the old Indian trail that is pretty

15 famous. We are going into partnership with

16 the Tourism Bureau, and they're going to

17 actually have an office there. And we're

18 also going to -- with a little extra money

19 that we're trying to actually fund raise for,

20 we will also fix that concession stand so

21 that we can have better concession.

22 So it's magnificent. So I hope all of

23 you are there when we open. It's been a

24 long, long multifaceted project.

223

1 SENATOR O'MARA: A multiyear process,

2 but glad it's coming to an end and it's on

3 schedule.

4 You mentioned in your opening remarks

5 about the rainy season we had, in particular

6 the flooding along Lake Ontario. And that

7 obviously is an area of questioning we were

8 on earlier. But can you summarize for us the

9 impacts to the state parks along the shore of

10 Lake Ontario because of the flooding of last

11 year? In particular, you know, on the

12 eastern end where it affected Fair Haven,

13 Mexico Point, Chimney Bluffs -- which is a

14 very unique area, and I'm not sure what the

15 extent of damage might have been there -- and

16 then, in particular, Sandy Island Beach, on

17 the eastern shore at Sandy Pond, because I

18 personally witnessed the devastation there of

19 about -- of the entire beach being taken out

20 in roughly an 8-foot sheer drop-off from what

21 used to be beach right down to the water

22 level.

23 So what efforts are being undertaken

24 at the Sandy Island Beach, in addition to

224

1 those others?

2 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: So when you

3 think about it and you think about how many

4 parks we have along the lake, we're the first

5 line of defense. And so it's good that we

6 take most of the brunt of it, because often

7 we're in front of any of the homes. And we

8 took most of the brunt. And we've invested

9 about $2 million to fix up, to restore. And

10 also, at Fort Niagara, that too was -- all

11 the break wall was damaged.

12 And so -- and we will invest more.

13 And they're, you know, back in shape. We've

14 lost -- you know, it waxes and wanes with the

15 water levels, you know, some of the amount of

16 sand. But we're -- and then we opened all of

17 them or most of them last summer, and we're

18 ready to open this summer.

19 And as well, we're mindful of where we

20 are in front of some of the communities, so

21 we've built up some dunes to protect them as

22 well if there is, you know, future flooding.

23 SENATOR O'MARA: The $2 million you

24 mentioned, was that just at Sandy Island or

225

1 was that --

2 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: That was both

3 the Fort and Sandy Island. And then small --

4 smaller repairs to docks and boat launches

5 and so forth and so on throughout.

6 SENATOR O'MARA: Are there additional

7 repairs or infrastructure repairs or

8 waterfront repairs needed throughout this

9 next season?

10 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: There -- I mean,

11 you know, a lot we did with our own people,

12 who are pretty good at holding together this

13 park system. But there are probably some

14 small ones, but I think -- but I will

15 check -- in terms of, you know, this covers

16 the magnitude of the damage. But I'll check.

17 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you.

18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman

19 Woerner.

20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you.

21 Thank you, Commissioner, for your

22 testimony here.

23 I'd like to start by just saying thank

24 you so much for the investment in the

226

1 Peerless Pool and for your continued support

2 of the Susan B. Anthony House, both projects

3 that I think will make a real difference in

4 my district.

5 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: And thank you

6 for your help on them.

7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: It's a

8 partnership, yes.

9 I want to talk about the historic

10 preservation tax credits. Saratoga Springs,

11 which I represent, is in many ways the city

12 that tax credits and historic preservation

13 really saved. And so I'm -- the credits, as

14 you know, expire next year and there's about,

15 as I understand it, about $6 billion in

16 projects currently in the pipeline. And

17 there's some concern that the -- that if we

18 don't take the step to assure the

19 continuation of this program in advance of

20 the expiration, that that will introduce

21 uncertainty into the development process and

22 those will -- those projects will start to

23 evaporate.

24 Can you reflect a little bit on that?

227

1 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: There always is

2 concern. Certainty will, you know, help

3 investors go forward. And so that -- we all

4 know that, and that's what has to be figured

5 in to any bill that goes forward.

6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Terrific.

7 New York is the leader in the nation

8 in attracting outside investment for

9 rehabilitation tax credit programs, which is

10 a tremendous economic development,

11 particularly for upstate. What else could we

12 do with these tax credit programs to make it

13 an even more attractive program for investors

14 to invest in upstate New York rehabilitation

15 projects?

16 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: I think the

17 three biggest is extend for five years.

18 Decouple from the federal program so it just

19 stands on its own.

20 Also is tinkering a bit with the

21 census tracts. Because, you know, the

22 investment's tied to the census tracts, the

23 census just came in. And some will fall out,

24 some won't. And it's to at least give people

228

1 time if they're going to fall out, and it's

2 based on the median income.

3 Then there's transferability, which is

4 enabling investors to transfer the credits.

5 That adds more flexibility and also could

6 bring not-for-profits that could do the work

7 into the mix.

8 There's also -- but here you're

9 getting into, you know, costs. But obviously

10 our current state historic tax credits are

11 20 percent, you know, capped at 5 million.

12 Maybe in some of those smaller projects, to

13 encourage people to go forward, you could,

14 you know, raise the rate for smaller ones.

15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Right.

16 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: There are a lot

17 of small things that you could do that would

18 enhance it, but obviously also the cost is --

19 needs to be figured in.

20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Right. So on

21 that point, if we were to extend the tax

22 credits at this point for another five years,

23 which I think takes it out to 2025, decouple

24 it from the federal program, tweak the census

229

1 tracts a little bit, and add transferability,

2 that doesn't have a fiscal impact in the

3 current -- in the coming fiscal year or even

4 out the next couple fiscal years, does it?

5 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: It does not have

6 any significant fiscal impact. Nothing new.

7 Assuming that the program goes forward, no.

8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: So this would

9 be a way to create economic activity,

10 economic development, particularly in our

11 older upstate cities without having to add

12 additional burden to the state budget.

13 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yes. Yes. No

14 new costs, yeah. No -- I should say no --

15 you know, I'm sure there's some costs, but no

16 significant new costs.

17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Terrific.

18 Thank you very much.

19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman

20 Jenne.

21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Yes, thank you.

22 How are you this morning -- afternoon,

23 sorry.

24 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Good, yeah.

230

1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: I just wanted to

2 touch on the flooding that we had last

3 spring. And, you know, while I represent

4 mainly the St. Lawrence River, we were

5 impacted as well. And I just wanted to make

6 sure that all repairs of damage to those

7 parks along the St. Lawrence River had been

8 adequately addressed.

9 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yes, they have

10 been.

11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Okay. And as --

12 you know, one of our biggest problems was

13 that our docks were underwater, and I

14 wondered if repairs had been made to raise

15 docks or to put in floating docks in places

16 where, you know, standard docks are expected

17 to be flooded again this year. I expect

18 water levels will be higher than normal for

19 the -- forever. And that, you know, we'll be

20 making those types of plans as well.

21 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: With all of our

22 capital improvements that's what we're trying

23 to do, is to, you know, look at rising water

24 and any, you know, climate change, whatever

231

1 it may be, and think about adjusting for the

2 future.

3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Okay. Has there

4 been any thought put into advertising dollars

5 to try to help bolster those communities that

6 have been impacted by the flooding and maybe

7 we've seen patrons go away? Are we able to

8 tap any of those kind of advertising dollars

9 to try to help the communities that suffered

10 last year and are likely to suffer again this

11 year?

12 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: We tap in

13 mightily to I Love New York. And we should

14 talk to them, that's a good idea --

15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Yeah, it would

16 be cool if the Thousand Islands region could

17 get a shout-out, because we oftentimes get

18 the short end of the stick in terms of

19 advertising dollars to begin with. While we

20 don't have the state's population base, we

21 certainly do host the state during the summer

22 months --

23 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: You do, yes.

24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: And so it would

232

1 be great to make sure everyone knows we're

2 open for business in the Thousand Islands

3 region as well.

4 In terms of the investment in trails,

5 my area hosts a lot of bikers as well,

6 cyclists. And it would be great if we were

7 included in phase 2 -- certainly, if not

8 phase 2, phase 3 of investments in our trail

9 systems. Our chambers of commerce in our

10 area try to market our existing trail

11 systems, but if we could be included in the

12 state's, you know, I guess trails maps and

13 systems, that would be great as well.

14 I had some firefighters ask me the

15 other day what was going on with the rumors

16 they heard that as a benefit to try to

17 attract and retain volunteer firefighters,

18 that they would be entitled to some sort of

19 state park pass. I really hadn't heard much

20 about that. And so since you're sitting

21 here -- I don't know if that's on your radar

22 or if anyone has brought that up to your

23 attention, that there seems to be rumors

24 throughout the volunteer firefighter service

233

1 that that may be in the works.

2 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: That what is in

3 the works?

4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: That if you're a

5 volunteer firefighter, that you might be

6 entitled to certain state park passes?

7 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: I don't know

8 about it. I'll look into it.

9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Well, I just

10 heard about it as well, so we're learning

11 about it at the same time. And, you know, if

12 there was the ability to do something like

13 that, that would certainly be wonderful for

14 the few fire volunteers that we have left, to

15 support them.

16 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yes.

17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: And it was

18 mentioned by one of my colleagues, you know,

19 that sometimes we're able to support capital

20 projects in our districts. You know, I tried

21 to support a local land conservancy that was

22 creating a trail system, a multi-use, fully

23 accessible trail system. And oftentimes

24 those types of organizations are good

234

1 partners around our state park systems.

2 And I was shocked to find out that

3 even though land conservancies are listed as

4 an entity that, as members of the

5 Legislature, we can try to support with

6 capital dollars -- that the concept that I

7 would have multicounty land conservancies and

8 them be outside the jurisdiction of a local

9 government -- are ineligible to receive those

10 capital funds.

11 And so as we're trying to in the

12 Legislature partner with recreational and,

13 you know, green space organizations

14 throughout the state, that if you're not just

15 a little zoo somewhere, that you're not, you

16 know, considered eligible. So --

17 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: I think actually

18 land conservancies are eligible for our

19 municipal grants.

20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Well, DASNY

21 doesn't feel that way. They rejected me like

22 two weeks ago. So there seems to maybe be

23 some communication issues. If that could get

24 resolved -- this is my first opportunity to

235

1 bring it up -- that they didn't seem to think

2 that my land conservancy was eligible.

3 So we run into those problems, and

4 it's quite upsetting that we can't be fuller

5 partners here in the Legislature with our

6 efforts to protect green space and have the

7 public be -- have access to it.

8 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: So we will get

9 right back to you --

10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Thank you.

11 Appreciate it.

12 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: -- because I do

13 know that you are eligible for our -- or they

14 are, not-for-profits are.

15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: The list gets

16 smaller and smaller each year of eligible

17 entities. So it's -- when you have the rug

18 pulled out from underneath you, it's quite

19 upsetting, so ...

20 Thank you.

21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. I

22 think that's it for questions from the

23 members.

24 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Thank you very

236

1 much.

2 SENATOR KRUEGER: Thank you.

3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thanks for all

4 your support. You can have a slower exit

5 than your entrance.

6 COMMISSIONER HARVEY: Yeah.

7 (Laughter.)

8 SENATOR O'MARA: Next up is our

9 Agriculture and Markets commissioner,

10 Richard Ball.

11 Commissioner?

12 COMMISSIONER BALL: Good afternoon.

13 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you for being

14 here.

15 COMMISSIONER BALL: It's a pleasure to

16 be here.

17 SENATOR O'MARA: You may proceed.

18 COMMISSIONER BALL: Yes, thank you.

19 Chairwoman Weinstein, Assemblyman

20 Magee, members of the agricultural committees

21 and elected officials, I am happy to offer my

22 testimony on the 2018-2019 Executive Budget

23 for the Department of Agriculture and

24 Markets.

237

1 The Executive Budget recommends

2 $162 million for the department. This will

3 allow us to maintain our core functions while

4 advancing key initiatives that support the

5 agricultural industry and grow our food and

6 beverage sectors.

7 Even with federal uncertainty, we have

8 one of the strongest grower communities in

9 the nation. Our nearly 36,000 farms not only

10 increased production in 2017 for several

11 commodities, but also implemented major

12 environmental protections. With the

13 Governor's support and partnerships with all

14 of you, we have a great foundation to build

15 on our progress.

16 I am very proud of our support of the

17 Governor's No Student Goes Hungry initiative.

18 A big part of that effort is doubling funding

19 for our Farm-to-School program, which ensures

20 healthy local food access to our young

21 people. The Executive Budget provides even

22 greater resources, allowing us to expand our

23 reach to hundreds of thousands of additional

24 students.

238

1 The Governor has also proposed a

2 significant increase in reimbursements for

3 schools that source at least 30 percent of

4 their food from New York farms. That will

5 have a big impact on our schools, our

6 children, and our farmers.

7 Thanks to the record funding for

8 agricultural education that you approved last

9 year, thousands of students now have access

10 to in-class edible gardens and hands-on

11 agricultural lessons. In addition,

12 84 schools were awarded grants to start or

13 advance agricultural education programs

14 across the state.

15 The New York State Grown & Certified

16 program now has more than 100 producers

17 participating, who together operate nearly

18 50,000 acres. In addition, nine major dairy

19 processors also represent nearly 1,400

20 New York dairy farms. We have expanded the

21 program to include many new commodities and

22 partnered with several large retailers to

23 showcase these products in stores.

24 The Governor's Taste NY program

239

1 continues to grow as well. Sales topped

2 $16 million last year, and we are on track to

3 do even better in 2018. The Executive Budget

4 further expands opportunities to connect

5 local entrepreneurs with consumers and to

6 increase the visibility of their products in

7 major transportation hubs.

8 Our Industrial Hemp program boasts

9 over 2,000 acres dedicated to innovative

10 research. Tomorrow, we are hosting an

11 Industrial Hemp Research Forum, connecting

12 researchers, academics, businesses, and

13 processors to improve and broaden the

14 program. In addition, a $2 million

15 investment in seed certification and breeding

16 will support the development of unique hemp

17 varieties best suited for New York's growing

18 conditions.

19 We also look forward to hosting two

20 new summits, one focused on wood products and

21 the other focused on Concord grapes. The

22 goal is to bring stakeholders together to

23 identify challenges and to develop solutions

24 to support these commodities.

240

1 Investments in the Great New York

2 State Fair led to new attendance records and

3 more sales of New York milk, maple and

4 potatoes than ever before. Construction of

5 the new 136,000-square-foot Expo Center is

6 underway and on track to be completed for

7 this year's State Fair.

8 Protecting the environment remains a

9 top priority of the Governor's. This year's

10 EPF includes $20 million for farmland

11 protection, $17 million for agricultural

12 water quality projects, and $10 million for

13 our Soil and Water Conservation Districts.

14 From preserving our natural resources

15 to supporting economic development through

16 the promotion of our high-quality

17 agricultural products, the Executive Budget

18 moves our ag industry forward. I understand

19 developing the final state budget is a

20 collaboration with you, the Legislature, and

21 we look forward to hearing your priorities as

22 well.

23 Thank you.

24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

241

1 We're going to go to the Assembly's

2 Agriculture chair, Assemblyman Magee, for

3 some questions.

4 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: Commissioner, good

5 to see you again --

6 COMMISSIONER BALL: Good to see you,

7 sir.

8 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: -- be with you

9 again as we talk about issues important to

10 agriculture in the state, our number-one

11 industry. So welcome this afternoon.

12 Commissioner, I've got a couple of

13 questions here. The concentrated animal

14 feeding operations, CAFOs, the Clean Water

15 Infrastructure Act of 2017 included

16 $50 million for concentrated animal feeding

17 operations. What is the status of that

18 funding, and what steps has the department

19 taken to ensure that this funding is directed

20 towards financially vulnerable operations?

21 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you for the

22 question.

23 We're actually in a very good place

24 there. As you know, we have $50 million to

242

1 work with. We're going to roll that out in

2 three different phases. The first phase was

3 rolled out last fall, and we made awards in

4 December. We'll do another rollout in the

5 second round this spring, and we'll do a

6 third round later this summer -- late summer,

7 early fall.

8 So I believe in the first round we had

9 a little over almost $30 million that went

10 out into the program. We did review all the

11 applications that came in. As you know,

12 hardship and financial concerns were a part

13 of the application process. But it was very

14 well-executed, and happy to say a pretty good

15 start to a great program.

16 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: Another area, the

17 Executive proposal would decrease Aid to

18 Localities funding for the department by

19 $11.48 million from the 2017-2018 level.

20 What effect will these reductions have on

21 many programs being cut, like the Farm

22 Viability Institute, Cornell Veterinary

23 Diagnostic Lab, and rabies and pro-dairy

24 programs and the state's apple growers?

243

1 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you for

2 that.

3 Well, as you know, this is a process.

4 I was very pleased to see that in the

5 Governor's proposed budget, it's virtually

6 identical to our budget last year. I fully

7 respect the process, and I understand the

8 budget is -- the Executive Budget is the

9 Governor's opportunity to lay out his

10 priorities. And then as we go through the

11 process, you as the Legislature, representing

12 constituents with varying degrees of

13 importance in your own community, have an

14 opportunity to weigh in. And we fully look

15 forward to working with you to, you know, do

16 just that.

17 So those dollars that you mentioned

18 represent the legislative adds for last year.

19 Look forward to working with you on that

20 process.

21 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: Okay. And now, in

22 another area, the market orders. The

23 Executive proposes permanently transferring

24 the administration of agriculture and dairy

244

1 marketing orders to Empire State Development

2 Corporation. Has the department received

3 complaints from the marketing order boards

4 related to the administration of their farms?

5 COMMISSIONER BALL: I think there was

6 last year, before we undertook this, there

7 was some apprehension. But I have to say

8 that the transition has been relatively

9 seamless. There's been some conversations

10 with ESD, and President Zemsky and I are

11 talking fairly frequently about this. And he

12 in no way wants to step on our toes. And

13 they're the money folks. We're still

14 involved in all the programmatic efforts of

15 all the marketing orders. And I would say

16 it's been a good move.

17 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: Another area was

18 the migrant workers childcare program.

19 Funding for the childcare for migrant workers

20 was reduced by $1 million last year. What

21 impact will this reduction have on the

22 program?

23 COMMISSIONER BALL: Actually, again,

24 that was a legislative add. I have actually

245

1 met with ABCD migrant daycare center

2 yesterday. I encouraged them to invite our

3 national congress, before they debate the

4 immigration bill or DACA, to come visit one

5 of our centers. And I recommended Batavia.

6 And that it might take the edge off some of

7 the conversations that are going on around

8 the guest worker and immigration challenges.

9 It's a wonderful program, and I

10 certainly hope that you all look at it

11 finally, and I look forward to working with

12 you on that.

13 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: Okay. Now, in

14 another area, the local fairs and animal

15 shelters.

16 The state fiscal year 2017-2018

17 enacted budget included capital funding for

18 local fairs and for animal shelters. Have

19 these funds be been released? Why does the

20 Executive proposal eliminate this funding?

21 COMMISSIONER BALL: Actually, the

22 funds have been released. They're out. The

23 county fairs, this is the second year they've

24 gotten the funding. And all we're hearing is

246

1 that it's working very well and they'd like

2 more.

3 We also -- the animal shelter/

4 companion animal money went out today.

5 Awards have been made. There was $5 million

6 that we had to disburse, and I think

7 $13 million worth of requests came into us.

8 So clearly it was a sensitive subject, and

9 one that's much appreciated and

10 oversubscribed.

11 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: By the way of your

12 comments, I recently visited the State Fair,

13 and that is really going to be a great

14 facility there with all this capital work

15 that's being done on the fair.

16 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you.

17 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: Food safety, the

18 Executive proposal includes $2.6 million to

19 modernize the food safety inspection system.

20 Can you please describe how this funding will

21 be utilized? Are revenues from penalties

22 expected to increase?

23 COMMISSIONER BALL: We do not

24 anticipate increasing penalties at all.

247

1 You know, over the past several years

2 we have been careful with our budget and had

3 flat budgets. So we look to have Lean

4 programs that analyze the way we do things,

5 the way we service the industry.

6 And typically a Lean program brings us

7 to an IT solution. And in this case with our

8 food safety people, this new IT solution will

9 allow us to save one man-hour for one

10 inspector every single day. So it's going to

11 make us a lot more efficient and able to

12 serve our industry in a much better way.

13 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: And one last

14 question about ag educators.

15 The department has stated that it

16 plans to double the number of ag educators.

17 What is the current status of this? And

18 funding for this program was cut by $113,000.

19 Is the department concerned about its ability

20 to increase the number of ag educators?

21 COMMISSIONER BALL: I feel okay about

22 the funding. We had -- last year's was a

23 record amount of money, which was quite a bit

24 more than the year before. And this year's

248

1 funding is still more than two years ago. So

2 I think we're in good shape there.

3 The initial shot of money helped us

4 jump-start that program. We have 28 more ag

5 teachers in place than we did last year, and

6 we trained over 105 people, sent them to

7 advanced learning conferences, et cetera, and

8 another 15 to different kinds of training.

9 So I think we're well on our way to achieving

10 our goal of doubling the number of ag

11 teachers.

12 ASSEMBLYMAN MAGEE: Very good. That's

13 all the questions I have. And again, thank

14 you, Commissioner, for all you do for the

15 agriculture community.

16 COMMISSIONER BALL: It's great to work

17 with you. Thank you, sir.

18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

19 Senate?

20 SENATOR O'MARA: Senator Ritchie.

21 SENATOR RITCHIE: Thank you.

22 COMMISSIONER BALL: Good to see you.

23 SENATOR RITCHIE: You too,

24 Commissioner.

249

1 I'd like to just start off by saying

2 how much I appreciate the working

3 relationship that we have and the

4 relationship that we have with your office.

5 It certainly makes discussing issues so much

6 easier. You've been very attentive. So I

7 want to start off by saying that.

8 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you.

9 SENATOR RITCHIE: And then I'll get

10 into following up on Assemblyman Magee's

11 question. Every year when the budget comes

12 out, the critical programs for the

13 agriculture industry are continually cut

14 back. And in the eight years that I've been

15 here, it leaves very little room for us to

16 expand on some of the priorities that we have

17 in the Senate. Because by the time we fill

18 back in the local assistance programs, the

19 price tag is so extensive it makes it

20 difficult.

21 That being said, I believe those

22 programs are critically important to the

23 industry. So can you just kind of explain

24 how the Executive gets to the number when it

250

1 comes to local assistance programs?

2 COMMISSIONER BALL: Sure. Thank you

3 for that. I appreciable your concern on the

4 subject.

5 You know, as I mentioned with

6 Assemblyman Magee, I've come to recognize

7 that this is a process. You know, this is --

8 since my role as commissioner began, I'm now

9 in my fifth year, the budget -- I have a lot

10 of respect for the budget and the process

11 that we get into. Facing a budget deficit

12 this year like we did with a $4 billion

13 deficit before we got started -- and who

14 knows what the total bill will be at the end

15 of Washington's implementation of the Tax Cut

16 and Jobs Act. We looked at our budget this

17 year, and the Governor gave us basically a

18 level budget as last year. He has come in

19 with his Executive Budget the same as last

20 year.

21 You all represent parts of our state,

22 industries, and the needs change out there in

23 the marketplace and in your country, and the

24 opportunity to discuss all the legislative

251

1 adds is a process. And I respect that, and I

2 certainly look forward to working with you on

3 it, and I understand your concern there.

4 SENATOR RITCHIE: Can you tell me

5 under -- it's under the ESD budget -- what

6 the $27.3 million is for Grown and Certified?

7 COMMISSIONER BALL: Grown and

8 Certified, that really includes an awful lot

9 in there, because that includes an awful lot

10 of soil and water work as well. It's kind of

11 lumped together. It's a conglomeration of

12 several different funding sources that

13 actually lead and help a producer to become

14 grown and certified.

15 So there's funding in there for good

16 agricultural practices training -- that is

17 helping food safety training on the farm,

18 reimbursements for the costs of doing that.

19 There's funding in there for some of our soil

20 and water work with regards to our

21 agricultural environmental management plans,

22 our AEM plans, and the soil and water work

23 that gets done across the state in each

24 county. It's not really marketing money,

252

1 that's really money to support our farmers

2 doing a better job in the environment and a

3 better job with food safety.

4 SENATOR RITCHIE: The 27.3, is that an

5 increase from last year or is that a new

6 allocation?

7 COMMISSIONER BALL: No, that's just

8 the sum total of those projects with soil and

9 water. There is $1 million more in there for

10 our soil and water districts than there was

11 last year.

12 SENATOR RITCHIE: Then I'll move on to

13 Cornell. You know, one of the things we

14 always talk about is how lucky we are in

15 New York State because of Cornell and the

16 critical research that they provide farmers

17 across the state. They're kind of our -- I

18 would say our shining star or our ace in the

19 hole.

20 So can you tell me if you believe

21 Cornell is getting funded to the level that

22 it should be? I continually hear that the

23 buildings and the labs there need to be

24 upgraded, and there's an issue with staffing

253

1 levels. I just want to make sure that we're

2 holding Cornell's funding level to the level

3 where they can continue to help our farmers

4 compete across the country.

5 COMMISSIONER BALL: Sure. Great

6 question. And I have to say it's great to

7 have the partnership we have with Cornell and

8 our cooperative extension system.

9 I have to tell you, a few years ago I

10 was asked to do a little homework for the

11 Governor and look at who has the best

12 agricultural extension program in the country

13 and how we might improve. And it came back

14 to New York State has the best cooperative

15 extension system in the country.

16 Certainly we value that partnership.

17 And I have to say that you participated --

18 last fall we did some farm bill listening

19 sessions, and we identified research, ongoing

20 research for agriculture as a priority in

21 those sessions. I heard that in every

22 session we held. The United States is

23 currently being outspent by two countries

24 two-to-one in the realm of research in

254

1 agriculture: Brazil and China. So we need

2 to keep up the work here that we do. And

3 it's been much more challenging for Cornell

4 to compete with those federal dollars as well

5 as all the other dollars that are out there.

6 I think in New York we're doing the

7 best we can. We certainly have -- I don't

8 think we've ever had a better relationship

9 with our partners at Cornell than we have

10 today, and we value that. Is there more

11 funding to be had for them? There's always a

12 need. We were able to help with the nematode

13 lab for potatoes, we found some funding there

14 through USDA, et cetera, et cetera. So we

15 work just as hard as they do to try to find

16 more funding.

17 SENATOR RITCHIE: And moving on to the

18 capital funding for our agricultural fairs.

19 I know when you said there's still more need

20 there, that's what I hear pretty much from

21 all of them.

22 But one of the issues that I have

23 heard repeatedly for a lot of our small

24 county fairs, the resources they were

255

1 requesting were for water and sewer issues.

2 And apparently, however, as the statute was

3 drafted, it excluded bathrooms if they

4 weren't attached to the actual ag building.

5 So can we find a way to address that?

6 COMMISSIONER BALL: I think that's a

7 great suggestion, because water at facilities

8 at our state -- at all our fairs is pretty

9 important.

10 SENATOR RITCHIE: Right. And then my

11 last question is really a question that has

12 to do with a federal issue, but it's

13 something that's extremely important here in

14 New York State to the industry.

15 Our dairy farmers are really facing

16 some tough times. Year after year, the milk

17 prices are down substantially. A lot of the

18 dairy farmers are just barely hanging on. Is

19 there anything at the state level that can be

20 done to help the dairy industry?

21 COMMISSIONER BALL: Yes, thank you for

22 that. Our dairy industry is really in a very

23 precarious state today. You know, typically

24 in dairy we've seen a cycle, a three-year

256

1 cycle of ups and downs that everybody kind of

2 got familiar with and comfortable with and

3 learned to work around. But we've had a

4 prolonged -- rather than a stab, I would say

5 a long scrape over the last three years for

6 the dairy industry. And originally

7 predictions for this year looked a little

8 better, but just in the last couple of months

9 it's looking like more of the same.

10 It is very challenging. We have got a

11 list of things that we're working on. We put

12 resource guides together for our farms. As

13 you know, the challenge here isn't so much

14 something that we're doing wrong in

15 New York -- because this is not just a

16 New York problem, not just a Northeast

17 problem, not just a United States problem,

18 it's actually a global challenge as we see

19 exports drop.

20 I was at the Ag Outlook Conference in

21 Cornell just a couple of weeks ago, and

22 looking back over the last 30 years, whenever

23 we've seen a drop in dairy exports we've seen

24 a corresponding drop in milk pricing. And

257

1 over the last almost four years now, we've

2 seen a 3 percent drop in our exports.

3 There's a lot of factors at work here -- the

4 value of our dollar with regards to other

5 nations, what kind of year Australia and

6 New Zealand and the European Union had, how

7 much milk China is buying.

8 All of these things are factors. And

9 of course it's hard to ignore the fact that

10 25 percent of our dairy exports go to Mexico,

11 and we're now engaged in conversations with

12 Mexico and Canada about trade. All these

13 things are kind of coming together.

14 What we can do in New York State --

15 and we are doing everything we can. We stay

16 in touch with our co-ops on a regular basis.

17 I pulled together the Milk Marketing Advisory

18 Committee -- which is our co-ops, our

19 processors, it's our farmers, it's

20 Farm Bureau, it's Cornell, it's even our

21 customers -- and we talk about the issue.

22 And one of the brightest things that we

23 identified in our last meeting was that we

24 need more capacity in the state, what we call

258

1 a balancing plan, things to take fluid milk

2 and turn it into shelf-stable products like

3 dry powder, the cheeses, et cetera.

4 So we identified that as our priority,

5 we went after that, we worked very closely

6 with our partners at Empire State Development

7 and we invested last year in a number of new

8 plants and rehabbing old plants to make them

9 more modern and help us increase that

10 capacity.

11 So there's a lot of things we're

12 working on. I am confident that we're going

13 to be okay in the long term, because we still

14 make the best milk in the country right here

15 in New York. The North Country in particular

16 is famous for the quality of cheese and the

17 quantity and quality of milk that we can

18 produce. And we still have the biggest and

19 the most marvelous marketplace at our

20 doorstep.

21 So we've got a whole list of things

22 that we need to do to help our farmers. But

23 thank you for that question.

24 SENATOR RITCHIE: Thank you,

259

1 Commissioner.

2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

3 Assemblywoman Jenne.

4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Thank you. Good

5 afternoon, Commissioner.

6 COMMISSIONER BALL: Good afternoon.

7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: First, I will

8 begin by saying although like my colleagues,

9 you know, we're always upset to see our local

10 projects get cut out of the ag budget, I will

11 tell you I was thrilled to see the Governor

12 make such a strong commitment to Farm to

13 School in this year's proposal. It is an

14 issue that, as you know, is near and dear to

15 my heart, and I've been working in my region

16 to pilot a Farm to School program. And so

17 I've got a lot of lessons learned that I hope

18 I will be able to share as this program moves

19 along.

20 But I have found that it has had a

21 tremendous impact on our farmers, on their

22 financial bottom line. And while they're

23 certainly not used to doing business,

24 necessarily, with institutional buyers in my

260

1 area, they are really rising to the challenge

2 of, you know, figuring out to how sell at

3 just more than a farmer's market. And our

4 children are also literally eating it up.

5 They are eating salads, and they weren't

6 before. I even have folks that raise beef

7 making the hamburgers that are all-beef

8 hamburger patties right from -- you know, as

9 fresh as can be.

10 So it has been wonderful. And I

11 expect that this Farm to School program, even

12 this mild investment that's proposed, will

13 have such ripple effects in the rural economy

14 that we'll kick ourselves for not doing it

15 sooner.

16 Now I would like to dive a little bit

17 into that program. I believe that the

18 proposal includes the purchase of New York

19 dairy products as eligible for the Farm to

20 School increased reimbursement rate. Is that

21 correct?

22 COMMISSIONER BALL: That's correct.

23 That's correct.

24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: I was shocked to

261

1 learn that school districts in my region are

2 actually getting their cartons of milk from

3 New England dairy producers, that it's being

4 imported into the state. And I didn't know

5 if you folks had any idea how much of the

6 milk that's being served in our New York

7 cafeterias are coming from out of state.

8 COMMISSIONER BALL: Very little.

9 We've actually looked at that pretty closely.

10 We are an ex-exporter of milk into

11 New England. Obviously some of our

12 processing plants -- for example, Agri-Mark,

13 they have plants in New York, they also have

14 plants in Vermont and Springfield,

15 Massachusetts. And so milk goes back and

16 forth.

17 But the net amount of milk goes out of

18 New York State. It may go to a plant on the

19 border, be processed, packaged, and then come

20 back in. There's a little bit up there on

21 the border. Pennsylvania, the same kind of

22 story going on there. But we're pretty good

23 at milk in New York.

24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: I questioned the

262

1 specific area because I was unsure if the

2 Farm to School program would assist our dairy

3 farmers by creating more demand or if we

4 figured that it wouldn't really change the

5 price of milk, that we wouldn't see that much

6 more New York milk being in demand and kind

7 of sopped up the excess supply that's out

8 there.

9 COMMISSIONER BALL: I certainly think

10 it's going to help, because it's going to

11 make the whole school budget for food in the

12 cafeterias work a lot better.

13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Oh, yeah. I'm

14 just talking about the price of milk in

15 general the farmers are getting, as you

16 mentioned before, has been just crushing for

17 them. And so it's usually a case of supply

18 and demand. And, you know, I just wasn't

19 sure if we thought that there would be an

20 uptick in New York-processed, you know, milk

21 purchases.

22 So this is a good segue for me to talk

23 in more depth about dairy. And with the SALT

24 cap in place, my biggest concern about the

263

1 SALT cap in my district is the impact it's

2 going to have on my dairy farmers. And not

3 because they're going to have any income,

4 it's going to be because they pay a ton of

5 property taxes that are going to take them

6 over the SALT cap.

7 And I wonder if we have a backup plan

8 for if we aren't able to agree, during this

9 budget process, on a solution for the loss of

10 the SALT deduction for our farmers, who don't

11 have cash hanging around to pay higher

12 property -- or, you know, any higher taxes at

13 all.

14 COMMISSIONER BALL: Right. We've

15 looked at this pretty closely. There's two

16 things at play here, not just the property

17 tax. Which if they're even a sole

18 proprietorship or an LLC, they would still

19 qualify for that as a business expense.

20 The bigger concern right now is

21 Section 199 in the federal code, which has to

22 do with income flowing through a cooperative.

23 Which of course, you know, 99 percent of our

24 dairy farmers backlog belong to a

264

1 cooperative. That got fixed along the way

2 somewhat. It actually got over-fixed and

3 included some unintended cooperatives, large

4 businesses that weren't dairy farmers paying

5 into a cooperative.

6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: No, that wasn't

7 unintended, I'm sure.

8 COMMISSIONER BALL: Well, yes, I'm

9 sure it was something. But that's being

10 worked on as we speak, and we weigh in on

11 that, and hopefully it will wind up righted

12 and again in a good place. So I don't think

13 that's going to be the blow to our dairy

14 farmers that's anticipated.

15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: And finally, I

16 just -- you know, as we're looking at options

17 on the table for supporting our dairy

18 industry, I'll just remind you of my thoughts

19 on a premium payment for meeting very high

20 quality measures. When we talk about our

21 exports being down, I think a component of

22 that is that the United States has failed to

23 adopt higher quality measures like the

24 European Union has, and so we are not seen as

265

1 attractive compared to those other places

2 that have higher quality standards.

3 And I've briefed you on my proposal to

4 have an up to $3-per-hundredweight premium

5 payment that would help us with exports and

6 also help to stabilize the dairy industry

7 that is on the brink, which is the basis for

8 most of the economy of upstate New York, and

9 that it's time to think more boldly.

10 Thank you.

11 COMMISSIONER BALL: Oh, gosh, thank

12 you. Appreciate it.

13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

14 Senator O'Mara.

15 SENATOR O'MARA: Yes, Commissioner --

16 COMMISSIONER BALL: Yes, sir.

17 SENATOR O'MARA: -- thank you.

18 Just a quick comment on the

19 $10-plus million of various ag programs that

20 get cut out of the budget this year, and last

21 year was more than that. And we go through

22 this charade every year in the budget of

23 cutting it out, putting it back in. We waste

24 a lot of time and effort for programs that

266

1 are very valuable to our agriculture

2 community. And I would just stress to the

3 Executive that it frankly is a waste of all

4 of our time, year in and year out, having to

5 go through all that.

6 On the State Fair, $50 million in

7 capital reappropriations, can you tell us

8 where we are, what remains to be done, and

9 how much is expended of that $50 million?

10 COMMISSIONER BALL: It's all

11 allocated. The building, they're working on

12 it today as we speak. If you drive by the

13 Syracuse State Fair on 690, you'll see steel

14 going up. They actually worked on it all

15 winter, even on those days when I couldn't

16 see a hundred yards in front of me to the

17 next car, they were out there pounding

18 footings into the ground. And steel is being

19 erected as we speak, and they anticipate

20 being done with the Expo building, 136,000

21 square feet, by the start of this year's

22 State Fair. And this will be the largest

23 Expo Center between Cleveland and Boston,

24 that's north of New York City.

267

1 So I think that's going to be a great

2 addition to the fair, not just for those 13

3 days we operate, but throughout the season.

4 SENATOR O'MARA: Where is the gondola

5 project?

6 COMMISSIONER BALL: You know, when we

7 put together the transformation of the fair,

8 the first workgroup, and you got to walk

9 around with me and the Governor there and we

10 talked about doing more, and then there was

11 the second transformation project that was

12 underway -- and the gondola was certainly a

13 part of those discussions. It was a rather

14 extensive wish list. But the funding that we

15 had to do, we decided the best thing to do

16 with it was go after this Expo building.

17 So we currently don't have funding for

18 a gondola. We did put into the fair last

19 year a skyway, which was borne by the company

20 that operates the midway. And so you can

21 take a skyway ride from one end of the fair

22 over to the west end, which has been a big

23 hit.

24 SENATOR O'MARA: But not over to the

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1 amphitheater.

2 COMMISSIONER BALL: Not over to the

3 amphitheater or the orange lot.

4 SENATOR O'MARA: So the gondola plans

5 are off the table for now?

6 COMMISSIONER BALL: Well, they're

7 sitting on the corner there waiting for

8 funding.

9 (Laughter.)

10 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. That's

11 where they should stay.

12 On hemp, I want to commend you, the

13 department, the Governor for the incredible

14 work that you've done to build a hemp

15 industry here in New York State. It's been

16 very important to me, and it's been a

17 pleasure to work with you and your department

18 and the Governor's office on that over the

19 past few years, together with

20 Assemblywoman Lupardo.

21 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you.

22 SENATOR O'MARA: You mentioned in your

23 opening remarks you now have over 2,000 acres

24 of land. Is it actively being farmed for

269

1 hemp this coming year, or what's the makeup

2 of that, and status?

3 COMMISSIONER BALL: Okay, the 2,000

4 acres refer to the amount of the research

5 project for hemp that we had planted last

6 year in New York State, literally from

7 Lake Erie across the state down to Long

8 Island. It was the biggest research project

9 I think Cornell and Morrisville had ever

10 stood up, and it was very successful in spite

11 of a very challenging growing season.

12 This year, new year, new

13 opportunity -- we have somewhere around over

14 106 growers that are interested in

15 participating in the hemp research. It will

16 add up to more than 2,000 acres this year. I

17 don't know exactly, but the sum total is

18 already exceeding 2,000 acres, so. I think

19 we're going to keep that research growing.

20 You learn a lot on a bad year, as you do on a

21 good year. And so excited about the

22 prospects there.

23 I would add that we'll be at Cornell

24 this week for a hemp research forum where we

270

1 get the best and brightest together and talk

2 about what we've learned and what we have yet

3 to learn as we go forward.

4 So I think between that and the

5 investment in processing capacity by Empire

6 State Development in hemp, that's going to

7 really be the answer.

8 SENATOR O'MARA: Again, on the topic

9 of Cornell, to echo Senator Ritchie's

10 comments, Cornell being in my district, the

11 relationship that we have in the state with

12 Cornell is phenomenal. The work that they

13 do, in conjunction with you and Ag & Markets

14 in so many other areas of the state, is

15 fantastic.

16 So I do want to commend Cornell for

17 their very active involvement in this. I

18 only wish that the forum wasn't the night of

19 a session day when we're here in Albany. But

20 I'm sure I'll have somebody there.

21 What is the plan -- or how many

22 licenses are issued now for growers and/or

23 processors in the state, and is there any

24 limit? Or where do you see where we're going

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1 to end up in the number of licenses being

2 issued?

3 COMMISSIONER BALL: I think the number

4 of permits we have is 106. And Jeff is

5 showing me here that the number of acres that

6 are currently planned for next year is 2700,

7 just to get back to that.

8 For processors, I believe there are 26

9 that are currently registered with the

10 department with an interest in processing

11 hemp in New York State.

12 SENATOR O'MARA: How is the work going

13 to match up the growers with the processors?

14 Because we certainly have farmers across the

15 state that are interested in this burgeoning

16 industry, but concerned about making an

17 investment to get into a new crop without

18 really having the industry there to sell to.

19 You know, it's the old chicken-and-egg

20 scenario.

21 COMMISSIONER BALL: Sure.

22 SENATOR O'MARA: So where are we in

23 those efforts?

24 COMMISSIONER BALL: Yeah. It

272

1 certainly starts with the customer, and not

2 with what you like to grow.

3 That's part of our mission, and to do

4 that, we put together a hemp workgroup that

5 came out of the summit you and I were at. We

6 invited all the people that are interested in

7 the business to be a part of that workgroup.

8 They're a very bright, very high-energy, very

9 scientific and very forward-thinking group of

10 people.

11 But within the first meeting, I

12 realized we needed a second workgroup just to

13 deal with a different type of hemp, because

14 certainly it depends on who your customer is.

15 And matching that processor to the grower who

16 can grow what they need is so important,

17 which is what we're doing with these

18 workgroups.

19 We have hemp that's grown for fiber,

20 that's grown for manufacturing, that's grown

21 for paper or cloth, and then we have hemp

22 that's probably grown to a much more

23 sophisticated level with regard to CBDs and

24 the seed and the quality of oils that can be

273

1 extracted, with nutrition and possibly

2 pharmaceutical benefits.

3 So it starts with who the processor is

4 and connecting them with a grower that can

5 grow that specific type, that specific

6 quality of product. Very different from

7 biofiber to pharmaceutical, as you can

8 imagine. But that's what we're matching up

9 now.

10 SENATOR O'MARA: Very good. I again

11 commend you and your staff's efforts and the

12 entire department on these efforts. I've got

13 a few more questions, but I'll come back for

14 a second round.

15 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you.

16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman

17 Blankenbush.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN BLANKENBUSH: Thank you.

19 Welcome, Commissioner. Assemblyman

20 Magee and Senator Ritchie asked most of the

21 questions that were on my list. I'm not

22 going to repeat those questions. But I just

23 want to reflect a little bit on the Senator's

24 comments about how every year that I've been

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1 down here with her, that the Executive takes

2 that money away from Ag & Markets and ag

3 communities.

4 So I'm not going to repeat any of

5 that, just to tell you that I'm concerned. I

6 think we've talked in my office about that,

7 actually. So hopefully we can get those back

8 in.

9 So the only real question that I have

10 is out in the western United States, the

11 Salmonella Dublin disease for the cattle, the

12 herd, I'm hearing that there's some coming

13 into New York now, that some herds of cattle

14 have had that or are starting to have that

15 disease. Have you heard that, or --

16 COMMISSIONER BALL: No, I have not.

17 And we have probably the best state vet in

18 the country here, Dr. David Smith. And

19 usually when I see him walking towards me in

20 the office, I know something's up, and I have

21 not seen him.

22 So I'm not aware of that. I'll

23 certainly flag that for him.

24 ASSEMBLYMAN BLANKENBUSH: Okay. I've

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1 just gotten some type of emails and stuff of

2 concern that -- it's all in the western

3 section of the United States, or a lot of it,

4 but now I'm getting some of our dairy people

5 are concerned about that disease entering

6 into the State of New York, and I just wanted

7 to ask that question if you've heard that.

8 COMMISSIONER BALL: I would say that

9 when I was in Washington a couple of weeks

10 ago, one of the things we advocated for and

11 would be part of the farm bill at USDA is the

12 ability to have funding set aside for

13 livestock issues as they come up.

14 As you know, a couple of years ago we

15 had the largest outbreak of avian influenza

16 that the United States has ever seen. It was

17 the most devastating and costly event that

18 USDA had ever dealt with. And the money had

19 to be found to do that. And so as we have in

20 the plant world funding in the government's

21 budget to deal with plant outbreaks, we need

22 to follow through and do the same thing for

23 livestock.

24 ASSEMBLYMAN BLANKENBUSH: So I guess

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1 the farmers that have contacted me, I should

2 wait to see what the department has found out

3 on that question that I have there?

4 COMMISSIONER BALL: Please contact us,

5 and we'll talk about that.

6 ASSEMBLYMAN BLANKENBUSH: Okay.

7 The last thing is that we're going

8 into the maple season, and the next time I

9 see you will be tapping. But a lot of the

10 maple people are talking that we're probably

11 going to be untapping by the time you and I

12 get to VBS down there.

13 COMMISSIONER BALL: Well, it is an

14 unusual weather pattern that we're in, but

15 the sap is flowing and we've already begun.

16 I'll have a brace and bit in my hand, and

17 I'll be ready.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN BLANKENBUSH: Thank you

19 very much. That's all the questions I have.

20 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you so much.

21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

22 SENATOR O'MARA: Senator Helming.

23 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you.

24 COMMISSIONER BALL: Good to see you,

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1 Senator.

2 SENATOR HELMING: It's nice to see

3 you, Commissioner. Thank you for being here.

4 My first question this morning is in

5 regards to anaerobic digesters. As you know,

6 and I think most everyone here, anaerobic

7 digesters help to reduce methane gas

8 emissions and nutrient contamination of

9 nearby sources, which is so critically

10 important in my region where I represent four

11 of the Finger Lakes areas.

12 These digesters also help New York

13 meet greenhouse gas emission reduction goals

14 under the State Energy Plan. And

15 furthermore, the state has already

16 significantly invested in its farm waste

17 generating equipment, customer generators,

18 and any closures would undo this substantial

19 investment.

20 I've toured a couple of farms with

21 digesters on site, and they seem to be at the

22 stage where the digesters are at the point

23 where they need upgrades. And I'm just

24 wondering what your thoughts are on the

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1 future viability of the existing digesters,

2 and what if anything is being done to ensure

3 their financial security.

4 COMMISSIONER BALL: Well, thank you

5 for that.

6 We talk pretty regularly with the

7 methane digester group, largely dairy

8 farmers, although there are some community

9 operations as well. I think it's a valuable

10 source of energy that we need to be aware of

11 and pay attention to.

12 As you know, digesters are very

13 expensive to install, very expensive to

14 maintain. And that return in the price has

15 not really given them enough flexibility to

16 maintain the equipment or consider expanding.

17 This is a conversation that we're

18 having ongoing with the Public Service

19 Commission as well as NYSERDA. And you're

20 going to have the new commissioner at NYSERDA

21 shortly -- a great individual, and we've

22 talked about this quite a bit.

23 I think we're getting there.

24 Particularly in my mind as we look forward to

279

1 becoming energy-independent here, and we look

2 at the possible sources of energy that we

3 have in the state, the CAFO manure storage

4 funding came up a little while ago. And I

5 think if we're creative about that, we will

6 see that, you know, potentially we have a

7 couple of hundred storage facilities for

8 energy around our state. And I think it's

9 something that needs to be included in our

10 thinking, and I certainly appreciate your

11 work in this sphere, and we'll work with you.

12 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you. I will

13 be sure to ask NYSERDA further about the

14 digesters.

15 But, you know, we're -- the digesters

16 that I was referring to, the ones that I

17 visited, were on dairy farms. And as we just

18 heard from a number of my colleagues, that

19 there is this increasing pressure on dairy

20 farmers, because of the milk prices just --

21 and as you said, the global economy is not

22 good.

23 And my concern is what are we doing to

24 help the farmers who are under all of this

280

1 stress? Is there anything from a mental

2 health perspective or -- what is New York

3 State doing? And has any money been

4 allocated in the budget for FarmNet?

5 COMMISSIONER BALL: FarmNet's been a

6 great partner in New York agriculture for

7 many years. And actually we've been engaged

8 in conversations with them. One of our

9 larger co-ops in the state actually sent a

10 letter to all its members cautioning about

11 mental stress and even suicide, the word was

12 mentioned.

13 We have seen that happen in the past

14 historically, in rare -- fortunately --

15 situations where farmers have taken their own

16 lives because of the stress on the industry.

17 So we talk regularly with FarmNet. I

18 have their brochure right here in my packet,

19 with a magnet to go on a refrigerator. We're

20 handing it out to all our farmers. We have

21 put together -- it was destined to be a

22 one-pager; it's actually a three-pager that

23 FarmNet put together for us to give to all

24 our inspectors, whether they be dairy

281

1 inspectors or plant or whatever type of

2 inspector, nutrition people who are visiting

3 the dairy farms to sell them feed, so they

4 can read and understand and know what to

5 watch for.

6 As you know, when a farmer gets to

7 FarmNet, they've made the right call and

8 they're going to get the right care. But the

9 farmers that don't call FarmNet are the ones

10 that we worry about. And so, again, we've

11 added this to our list of things we do as the

12 agency when we visit farms.

13 We're also working very hard to deal

14 with some of the underlying issues -- the

15 safety net that isn't there for them in the

16 farm bill, the MPP program, which failed them

17 miserably. So there's a fix for that. We're

18 analyzing that very carefully and seeing if

19 it makes sense for our farmers.

20 We're also on a call this week to talk

21 about price loss coverage protection for our

22 farmers. We're looking at all the options

23 there. And basically, you know, I don't buy

24 milk and I don't sell milk and I don't set

282

1 the price of milk. We can help make

2 connections, we can help look for new

3 markets. And we've worked very hard with our

4 grown and certified program, for example, to

5 expand that market, to expand the reach of

6 that market, and to get a higher-value dollar

7 for the dairy. So --

8 SENATOR HELMING: I'd just like to

9 redirect for a moment here.

10 COMMISSIONER BALL: Yes.

11 SENATOR HELMING: So I applaud you and

12 your agency for sharing the information about

13 FarmNet with the farmers out there. But why

14 is it year after year that there is no

15 funding in the Governor's budget for FarmNet?

16 And as Senator O'Mara talked about

17 earlier, it's kind of like a game we play.

18 The Governor puts nothing in for this

19 critically important program, which you just

20 acknowledged, you know, how important it is,

21 and then the Legislature has to go and battle

22 back for the money.

23 This should be an automatic -- this is

24 extremely important for the farmers.

283

1 COMMISSIONER BALL: The Governor put

2 $384,000 into that budget. And over the

3 years, traditionally, the balance of their

4 funding has come from the Legislature.

5 I agree that it's a critical program,

6 especially in a year like this one.

7 SENATOR HELMING: Can I ask another

8 one?

9 SENATOR O'MARA: Next round, Senator,

10 please.

11 SENATOR HELMING: Okay. Thank you.

12 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you.

13 SENATOR O'MARA: Senator Krueger.

14 SENATOR KRUEGER: Good afternoon. Oh,

15 there's no more Assemblymembers? Okay.

16 Hi, Commissioner. When you first took

17 over, we had a number of discussions about

18 expanding ways to bring New York State

19 agriculture into New York City markets,

20 wholesale sales as well as retail and

21 restaurants, and including the need to

22 improve the Hunts Point Market and ensure

23 that there were adequate locations to have

24 direct marketing from New York State farmers

284

1 to the wholesalers or the trucks that were

2 coming to pick up there.

3 Where are we today?

4 COMMISSIONER BALL: Well, I wish I

5 could say we're done, but we've made a good

6 beginning on that. We've got a lot of things

7 going on, actually.

8 We have regular conversations with the

9 Hunts Point people, and we've come together

10 under the umbrella of food safety and helping

11 them be ready for the Food Safety

12 Modernization Act that congress has passed.

13 But more to your point, with the

14 New York Grown & Certified Program, when we

15 rolled that out last year, I was able to be

16 with the Governor announcing the beginning of

17 that program in Hunts Point, in the South

18 Bronx, where we dedicated funding for a new

19 food hub there, to be that loading dock, to

20 be that cross-dock opportunity to get

21 New York Grown & Certified, New York

22 products, to the neighborhoods that need it

23 most.

24 We allocated $15 million to begin the

285

1 work on the building, partnering with the

2 Greenmarket Co. and GrowNYC. The plans are

3 being drawn, the land has been found.

4 They're drawing up the building plans now.

5 New York City is a partner on the land there.

6 And we're looking forward to breaking ground

7 later this year and actually getting that

8 building up and operating.

9 This will be able to facilitate not

10 just getting it into the various marketplaces

11 but specifically getting the food box program

12 supported in some of those neighborhoods that

13 have not traditionally had access to New York

14 food products.

15 SENATOR KRUEGER: And the state had

16 also supported the creation of a couple of --

17 there's a term, and I'm now blanking, but the

18 farmers would bring their food into a

19 centralized location and then it would get

20 sold to New York City institutional food

21 locations and it would -- that location they

22 brought the food to would put it together and

23 truck it for them the final miles down to the

24 city.

286

1 COMMISSIONER BALL: Right. Food hub,

2 yeah.

3 SENATOR KRUEGER: And so there was one

4 in the Hudson Valley I visited, and I'm

5 blanking on the name.

6 COMMISSIONER BALL: Yup.

7 SENATOR KRUEGER: So have those been

8 successful, and have we expanded on that at

9 all?

10 COMMISSIONER BALL: Yeah, we are.

11 There's a tremendous interest in food hubs.

12 Again, it really starts with the customer

13 first, and then you locate a food hub.

14 Truly, the Hunts Point Market is a

15 food hub. Terminal markets around the state

16 are food hubs already. But there are some

17 that need tweaking, need improvement, need a

18 new location and new thinking. But in this

19 case, particularly the one in the South Bronx

20 that we're looking at, we're calling it a

21 Greenmarket Food Hub. That is the

22 destination and the gathering point.

23 Corresponding things need to happen

24 upstate as well because, okay, we've got a

287

1 distribution point, but how do we have a

2 collection point upstate? And so that work

3 is ongoing, connecting the dots, where do we

4 have the capacity in New York State

5 agricultural communities to produce the stuff

6 that we need for that food hub. So that

7 relationship building is all critical.

8 SENATOR KRUEGER: Changing topics.

9 But parallel to my colleagues' questions

10 about hemp and the potential for a growing

11 hemp market in New York State, the Governor

12 has now announced that he's asking Department

13 of Health to take the lead on a study of the

14 impact of adult-use recreational marijuana in

15 New York, parallel to many states around the

16 country and a growing number of our

17 neighboring states.

18 Have they asked you to look at the

19 impact on our agricultural sector if we had

20 an additional product to be grown and sold in

21 New York?

22 COMMISSIONER BALL: I have not been

23 asked. I have had many conversations with

24 the commissioner of health about some of the

288

1 technical aspects of -- and cultural aspects

2 of growing the crop. But that's really

3 Department of Health.

4 And I do know that those institutions,

5 those businesses that we have in the state,

6 very tightly regulated, all indoors, very

7 high-security, and under his purview.

8 SENATOR KRUEGER: Although if we went

9 into a nonmedical model, which is what the

10 Governor has asked him to look at, I think

11 we're really talking more about broader

12 agricultural economics of a new product. And

13 my colleague just asked me to ask about the

14 weather conditions in New York. Is the

15 assumption that it would all need to be an

16 indoor or hydroponic model, or that there

17 would be outdoor farming potential?

18 COMMISSIONER BALL: My understanding

19 in talking with some of my colleagues in

20 other states -- you know, Colorado, for

21 example -- is that it's generally an indoor,

22 secured model, greenhouse-grown.

23 But I think we're at the stage the

24 Governor has asked people to look at it,

289

1 study it, and come back with an answer.

2 Pretty early on in the process, from what I

3 understand.

4 SENATOR KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank

5 you.

6 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you. Oh,

7 gosh, thank you.

8 SENATOR O'MARA: Commissioner, just a

9 couple more questions.

10 Commissioner Seggos from the DEC kind

11 of punted on a question regarding the soil

12 health program in New York. And that's one

13 of the many programs that's been -- I forget

14 whether that was cut completely or just

15 reduced in the Executive Budget.

16 That, to me, has been a very important

17 issue for agriculture in New York. I know

18 I've spoken to you several times about that.

19 And can you explain the rationale for the

20 reduction in that program?

21 COMMISSIONER BALL: Dr. David Wolfe

22 put together that proposal with Cornell.

23 He's a friend. It's an excellent program.

24 And soil health, as we've talked about a lot,

290

1 is the new buzz word in agriculture.

2 And that came into the budget not

3 through the Executive Budget, but through the

4 legislative process at the very tail end of

5 negotiations last year. And I would

6 encourage looking at that again. The

7 Governor did not include that in his budget;

8 it was an add by the Legislature. But I

9 think it's a worthwhile program.

10 SENATOR O'MARA: But the Governor

11 doesn't think it's worthwhile enough to put

12 into his budget?

13 COMMISSIONER BALL: I think he wanted

14 to know what you thought about it.

15 SENATOR O'MARA: And I've asked you

16 what you thought about it. It's been a good

17 program, right?

18 COMMISSIONER BALL: It's been a great

19 program.

20 SENATOR O'MARA: The soil health, we

21 deal with a lot of issues with runoff and

22 nonpoint source pollution. Soil health

23 certainly plays a significant role in that,

24 doesn't it?

291

1 COMMISSIONER BALL: Of course, yeah.

2 SENATOR O'MARA: And in the Finger

3 Lakes, where we have steep slopes running

4 into our lakes and waterways, and the harmful

5 algae blooms that we're dealing with that are

6 contributed to by this runoff, it seems to me

7 that the soil health program would be an

8 integral part of what are extensive efforts

9 going underway by the state right now with

10 regards to HABs, and in fact a summit going

11 on in the Hudson Valley today, and three or

12 four more scheduled around the state.

13 So would you agree that soil health is

14 an important aspect of this whole HAB issue

15 that we're dealing with?

16 COMMISSIONER BALL: I would. And

17 actually I was with the Governor this morning

18 in New Paltz for that very first HAB summit,

19 and I look forward to being at the one in

20 Western New York and central New York as

21 well.

22 Clearly we have to look from 30,000

23 feet down at what the issue is, and there's

24 concerns about the agriculture, but there's

292

1 concerns with homeowners and septic systems,

2 there's concerns with weather, climate

3 changes, there's concerns with municipal

4 processing systems. There's a lot that goes

5 into this.

6 And clearly -- I think correctly --

7 the Governor has identified that we need a

8 new level of thinking and study and expertise

9 and looking at this issue if we're going to,

10 you know, solve it. Because there isn't just

11 one thing that is the issue here.

12 Certainly on our farms the work that

13 we do with nonpoint, the work that we do with

14 the CAFO storages, the work that we do with

15 all our soil and water programs -- and again,

16 we've added a million dollars there, and

17 we've added climate resiliency funds -- all

18 of these together can help improve that

19 situation in our watersheds that are

20 sensitive.

21 So I would encourage you to look

22 closely at it as well, and look forward to

23 personally working with you on it.

24 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. And I

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1 agree with you completely about the many

2 aspects involved. And I didn't mean to imply

3 that soil health was the only one of them or

4 even the main one of them. But it's

5 certainly a part of it. So I appreciate your

6 interest in that and continued efforts in

7 that regard.

8 Senator Helming.

9 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you.

10 So talking about soil protection, one

11 of the programs that I think is incredibly

12 valuable to New York State is the FPIG, which

13 is the Farmland Protection Implementation

14 Grant program. I've seen that successfully

15 implemented in many areas across New York

16 State. And what I'm wondering is, are all

17 the funds under the FPIG program approved in

18 last year's budget currently encumbered?

19 COMMISSIONER BALL: I don't believe

20 they're totally encumbered. There's always

21 some that come in under budget, or a little

22 over or something. We have a backlog of

23 funding there. But that goes back to 2009,

24 when there was no funding and lots of

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1 projects. And so we've been dealing with

2 that backlog I think pretty effectively.

3 But yeah, we're spending the money

4 pretty well. In the last four years, we've

5 had stakeholder meetings, we've brought in

6 all the players there -- the land trusts, the

7 municipalities, our team -- and sat at the

8 same table and talked about the process, how

9 we can facilitate the process and make it

10 work faster.

11 And we've gotten it down to -- back in

12 those early days, it took over four years to,

13 you know, go from having funding to getting a

14 project done. We've cut the time in half.

15 I'm going to make my team very nervous now

16 and say last year we did two projects in

17 Saratoga County in a year. That's our goal,

18 is to get it down so that the money comes in

19 and the money goes out as fast as possible.

20 So I think we're doing a pretty good

21 job. We're gaining on it all the time. The

22 Governor is committed to it, he's put it back

23 in the budget again this year. And this year

24 we've added some grants to help on the land

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1 trust side, on the municipalities side, then

2 do inventories on available land and start

3 looking ahead so that the process can be, in

4 fact, much smoother, much faster.

5 SENATOR HELMING: Can we increase the

6 number of applications that the regional land

7 trust and/or the municipalities can submit?

8 I think right now are they capped at six per

9 region, or six applications in general?

10 COMMISSIONER BALL: You know, we can

11 certainly look at that. My response to them

12 about that is that the jam-up there doesn't

13 occur at Ag & Markets, it's largely in the

14 field at the land trust and the municipality

15 level.

16 These agreements involve conservation

17 easements that are fairly complicated, and it

18 takes a great amount of education on the end

19 of the farmer and the land trust, the

20 municipality. And for us, we've streamlined

21 our process down pretty well. What's been

22 taking a lot of the time is the capacity in

23 the community, get the farmers ready --

24 because things change on a farm. And you can

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1 think about if a farm has an idea to have an

2 easement and get that influx, there's -- if

3 it takes a long time, family dynamics change,

4 et cetera.

5 So we see the real bottleneck

6 happening at that end. But I'm willing to

7 turn the volume up on the machine, or the

8 speed up on the machine, but I think we've

9 spent the last couple of years making sure

10 the machine is running properly and that we

11 get the bugs worked out before we try to turn

12 up the speed on it.

13 SENATOR HELMING: Okay. Another

14 question, as long as no one's watching the

15 time.

16 (Laughter.)

17 SENATOR O'MARA: You've got a minute

18 and 44 seconds.

19 SENATOR HELMING: Farm brewery

20 license. I recently hosted a farm brewery

21 roundtable to discuss the New York Grown

22 thresholds under the program. And I want to

23 thank you for the department's participation.

24 Along with NYSDAM, we had representatives

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1 from the State Liquor Authority, Farm Bureau,

2 Cornell, the Brewers Association, as well as

3 growers and brewers from across New York

4 State. It was an absolutely wonderful,

5 wonderful roundtable, a lot of positive

6 response.

7 But I just wanted to share with you a

8 couple of things that came out of that

9 meeting.

10 COMMISSIONER BALL: Sure.

11 SENATOR HELMING: One, it became very

12 clear to me that in New York State we need to

13 grow a variety of hops that will stand out in

14 the market and also increase the value of our

15 New York hops. And I think that relates back

16 to some of the comments Senators have made

17 about the need to fund different Cornell

18 research and other types of research.

19 Another issue that was addressed, it

20 was stressed over and over again by the

21 participants at the event, was that there's

22 so much excitement -- at the Governor's

23 level, at the state level -- about the craft

24 brewery industry, but that when it comes to

298

1 putting, you know, money where your mouth is,

2 that the funding is low. That when it comes

3 to funding for hops and barley research, the

4 Governor puts in $40,000 every year.

5 And one of the producers who was at

6 the roundtable pointed out to us that one of

7 their hop storage bins on their farm alone

8 might cost $40,000.

9 And it's my understanding that the

10 Legislature is the primary funder of research

11 programs relating to hops and barley that

12 support the farm brewery license program.

13 Why is that? And it seems like this is going

14 back to a question that Senator O'Mara asked

15 earlier. You know, why do we play these

16 games? Why not put the money in up-front for

17 these important programs?

18 COMMISSIONER BALL: Well, again, and

19 I -- you know, not to belabor the point, but

20 it is a process, the budget. It's not just a

21 one-and-done kind of thing. You know, this

22 input is very helpful and frankly very

23 beneficial.

24 But I have to say that, you know, the

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1 Governor has held three craft beverage

2 summits, you know. Every one of them has

3 been tremendously successful. And every one

4 of them -- working with our partners at ESD

5 and our partners at the State Liquor

6 Authority, we've made regulations easier,

7 we've applied a different look, we've added

8 marketing efforts, we have funded, you know,

9 efforts at Cornell to get new varieties that

10 we're going to need. We are investing in

11 virus-free plant stock here; that's a new

12 initiative that we need back, because there

13 was so much excitement that some of the

14 growers got ahead of us and brought in, for

15 example, hop root stock from other areas. Lo

16 and behold, it had some virus into it. And

17 you don't see that until five years, six

18 years down the road.

19 So making sure that we have good stock

20 material. When you make an investment in

21 hops, it's a pretty significant investment

22 and it takes a long time before you get a

23 return on it.

24 So we're doing a lot of those things.

300

1 But I think we need to remember it's a joint

2 project here between the two of us. You're

3 out there talking with the growers; we've got

4 a craft beverage workgroup that we work with

5 on a regular basis. And where there's a

6 need, we're ready to step up. So we look

7 forward to that. I'm so glad you put

8 together that roundtable.

9 SENATOR HELMING: So just a question,

10 then, to follow up quickly. Do you think

11 there's adequate funding in the budget right

12 now for hops and barley research programs?

13 COMMISSIONER BALL: I think we need to

14 know what we need to know. I think we're

15 going to need to -- and I don't mean to be

16 silly about that -- but, you know, clearly

17 meet with Cornell on a regular basis.

18 We needed new varieties of rye to go

19 along with the hops. But we've already got

20 things in place, they've got good researchers

21 there. And some of it takes time. For

22 example, with the barley question, I spoke

23 with the Governor about barley not too long

24 ago. We need more barley. We need this

301

1 quality of barley. Well, it took Cornell

2 three years to really evaluate some of the

3 new varieties they were looking at, and they

4 weren't going to be ready to release a

5 recommendation until they had seen it three

6 times in a row and then were comfortable. So

7 some of this takes walking before we start

8 running.

9 But clearly it's an industry that's

10 grown 150 percent since 2012. I don't think

11 we've seen the end of it. And, you know, I

12 can see more funding needed as we go forward.

13 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you.

14 I have one more.

15 SENATOR O'MARA: You've got one more

16 question?

17 SENATOR HELMING: One more.

18 SENATOR O'MARA: That's the last one.

19 SENATOR HELMING: Okay. Cut me off

20 after this one.

21 Commissioner, have you heard about the

22 waste incinerator that's proposed for

23 Romulus, New York? It's about 3.5 miles off

24 of Seneca Lake. It's in the heart of the

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1 Finger Lakes wine and craft brewery area.

2 COMMISSIONER BALL: I have not.

3 SENATOR HELMING: Okay. Well, maybe

4 at some point you and I can get together and

5 we can talk about it.

6 COMMISSIONER BALL: Sure.

7 SENATOR HELMING: It's my

8 understanding that someone from your agency

9 will sit on the board that will be making a

10 decision on whether or not this incinerator

11 project should be approved for this area. I

12 could go on and on about my feelings of the

13 impact that this incinerator will have on our

14 agricultural industry -- not even to mention

15 on our clean drinking water in Cayuga Lake

16 and Seneca Lake. But maybe that's a

17 discussion that we can have offline.

18 COMMISSIONER BALL: Let's do that.

19 SENATOR HELMING: I just wanted to

20 bring it to your attention.

21 COMMISSIONER BALL: Sure, happy to do

22 that.

23 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you.

24 COMMISSIONER BALL: Thank you.

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1 SENATOR O'MARA: I think we're done,

2 Commissioner. Thank you for your

3 participation. Thank you for your

4 common-sense approach to many of these

5 matters and your passion for the issues that

6 you're involved with. You're really doing a

7 great job; keep up the good work.

8 COMMISSIONER BALL: Well, thank you.

9 I have to thank all of you for your continued

10 interest in agriculture and your support of

11 our food system. It's much appreciated.

12 SENATOR HELMING: Thank you.

13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

14 Next we have the New York State Public

15 Service Commission, represented by John B.

16 Rhodes, chair.

17 Feel free to begin.

18 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Am I on?

19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: You should be.

20 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS: Yes.

21 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Okay, thank you.

22 Sorry.

23 Good afternoon, Chair Young, Chair

24 Weinstein, and other distinguished members.

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1 My name is John Rhodes. I'm the CEO of the

2 Department of Public Service and chair of the

3 Public Service Commission. And with me today

4 is Executive Deputy Tom Congdon.

5 The department ensures safe, reliable,

6 and affordable access to energy,

7 telecommunications, and private water

8 services, and advises the commission on

9 issues ranging from setting rates and

10 protecting consumers to siting infrastructure

11 and reviewing utility mergers.

12 Our top priorities this year include

13 continuing Governor Cuomo's progressive plan

14 to modernize our utility systems and to

15 ensure affordable energy for our most

16 vulnerable citizens.

17 Some key points. Reforming the Energy

18 Vision. We will drive towards an

19 increasingly clean, reliable, affordable and

20 consumer-oriented energy system, by

21 harnessing markets, innovation, and smarter

22 investment.

23 We have the Clean Energy Standard,

24 which is a key element of REV and the state's

305

1 commitment to assuring that 50 percent of all

2 electricity consumed comes from renewable

3 energy resources by 2030, with requirements

4 on energy providers to procure increasing

5 amounts of renewable energy and zero-emission

6 resources.

7 We have low-income protections, where

8 the commission will advance its Energy

9 Affordability Policy, which seeks to limit

10 home energy costs -- energy burden, as we

11 call it -- for the approximately 2.3 million

12 low-income New Yorkers to no more than

13 6 percent of household income, on average.

14 We have system reliability and

15 resiliency. The reliability of our electric

16 and natural gas systems remains a primary and

17 essential focus. Our staff monitors utility

18 performance closely, investigates reliability

19 concerns, and advances cost-effective

20 investment in new monitoring and control

21 technologies.

22 In safety, this year we will further

23 strengthen our oversight of utility

24 practices, especially those related to

306

1 customer safety and to the replacement of

2 leak-prone natural gas pipes.

3 Our regulatory jurisdiction extends

4 over investor-owned utilities, including six

5 major electric/gas utilities, five major gas

6 utilities, three major water companies, as

7 well as small telephone companies, hundreds

8 of water companies, municipal electric

9 utilities, cable companies, power generators,

10 and energy service companies. The department

11 provides regulatory oversight and review of

12 electric service operation on Long Island --

13 the department, as opposed to the commission.

14 In this year, the commission expects

15 to decide several major rate cases. This

16 important review will be informed by the

17 cost-benefit analysis framework that the

18 commission established to ensure a clear and

19 transparent assessment of the benefit and

20 cost of utility investments. In addition to

21 rate case reviews, the commission instituted

22 a proceeding to ensure large tax savings for

23 utilities due to federal tax law changes are

24 captured for customer benefit in New York.

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1 We will build on the state's success

2 in driving record investment in renewable

3 energy development by supporting Governor

4 Cuomo’s call to expand energy efficiency

5 programs and deploy 1,500 megawatts of energy

6 storage -- the largest commitment per capita

7 by any state --- by 2025, saving billions of

8 dollars in energy costs.

9 Further, we will work with NYSERDA to

10 obtain at least 2,400 megawatts of offshore

11 wind power, which includes issuing a

12 procurement for 800 megawatts by the end of

13 this year. In terms of developing new energy

14 resources, there are currently 24 wind and

15 solar proposals, totaling 3,900 megawatts,

16 pending before the Board on Electric

17 Generation Siting and the Environment, also

18 known as the Siting Board, which is a board

19 that I chair.

20 It's critical that these projects are

21 appropriately sited, and that we account for

22 potential environmental and community

23 impacts. Our thorough siting process ensures

24 local communities are heard and that negative

308

1 impacts are addressed.

2 In the telecom sector, we will

3 accelerate infrastructure modernization and

4 oversee investment in broadband buildout to

5 help achieve Governor Cuomo's vision for

6 universally available high-speed broadband.

7 The commission uses its enforcement

8 powers to ensure regulatory success. Last

9 year, we held Charter to its commitment to

10 expand broadband service to 145,000 unserved

11 or underserved homes. When Charter missed

12 its first-year broadband buildout milestone,

13 we obtained a $13 million settlement to put

14 the company on track.

15 In the electric sector, the commission

16 investigated the utility response to the

17 March 2017 Rochester-area windstorm, and a

18 penalty proceeding is now underway.

19 In this fiscal year, reforming the

20 ESCO market remains a priority. We have

21 heard complaints from many consumers and

22 their representatives about ESCOs grossly

23 overcharging and using deceptive marketing

24 practices. We will continue the reform, and

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1 we will put an end to bad-acting ESCOS.

2 The fiscal year '18-'19 Executive

3 Budget continues support of $89.6 million for

4 operations, which includes $81.1 million in

5 18—a utility funds, $3 million for cable TV,

6 and $5.5 million for federal funds.

7 Additionally, $5.8 million is included for

8 intervenor funding, for a total All-Funds

9 appropriation of $95.4 million.

10 The full-time equivalent position

11 count remains the same at 520, and we are

12 positioned to deliver our core mission and

13 meet the Governor's ambitious agenda.

14 This concludes my remarks, and I

15 welcome your questions.

16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

17 We'll go first to the Assembly Energy

18 chair, Assemblyman Cusick.

19 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Thank you. Thank

20 you, Chairwoman.

21 Chairman, thank you for being here. I

22 wanted to ask some questions on the Clean

23 Energy Standard. I know in 2016 the 50

24 percent renewable by 2030 was adopted. Could

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1 you tell me in 2018 where we are, where

2 New York State is in the percentage of energy

3 generated in New York State by renewables?

4 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Can I offer

5 estimates for 2017?

6 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Sure. Whatever

7 you have.

8 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So the NYISO,

9 the New York Independent System Operator,

10 keeps the bible -- they now call it the Gold

11 Book. And if you look at those figures and

12 update them for known capacity additions,

13 total renewables are about 24 percent,

14 perhaps a little bit higher. The bulk of

15 those are hydro resources.

16 I expect you're asking also

17 specifically about wind and solar.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Yes.

19 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Solar is

20 probably running at about 1 percent, with

21 installed capacity growing at a very nice

22 healthy rate. And wind is at about -- in the

23 high 3 percents, I would say. Again, with

24 NYSERDA in the midst -- and you should talk

311

1 to the president of NYSERDA -- of really a

2 nation-leading procurement of clean-energy

3 resources, which include both wind and solar.

4 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Now, are these

5 numbers that you are comfortable with? Or

6 are these numbers that we predicted we'd be

7 on target?

8 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: They are on the

9 track that we need to be on in order to get

10 to our goal. I'll confess we're making life

11 a little bit easier for ourselves by moving

12 the finish line in a little closer. We have

13 in the State Energy Plan a very forceful

14 energy-efficiency set of initiatives, and I

15 think you know that the Governor in the State

16 of the State announced that he wanted us and

17 our sister agencies, including NYSERDA and

18 the New York Power Authority, to examine all

19 options to be even stronger on that.

20 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: So there are

21 incremental targets in place that -- to

22 ensure that we are on target to get to that

23 goal?

24 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's right.

312

1 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Okay. And you're

2 comfortable that we're on that track to get

3 there?

4 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We're not on

5 cruise control, we're paying a lot of

6 attention. But yes, we're confident we'll

7 get there.

8 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Great.

9 I'd like to switch over to the Indian

10 Point Closure Task Force. I have a question

11 on what's the status of the task force study

12 evaluating future reuse of the land? I know

13 that there was a deadline of April 30th.

14 It's fast approaching. So I wanted to see if

15 you could give us a little sneak peek of it.

16 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So this is one

17 of the few topics where my executive deputy

18 is especially deeply involved. So Tom,

19 perhaps you can answer?

20 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CONGDON: Hi,

21 Assemblyman. Thank you for the question.

22 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Absolutely.

23 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CONGDON: The Indian

24 Point Task Force, which I chair, has met

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1 three times. We've had very productive

2 meetings in the community, the Town of

3 Cortlandt.

4 And we did bring on a consultant

5 through a NYSERDA RFP to conduct that reuse

6 study that you've mentioned. The

7 consultant's name is D.L. English. They are

8 hard at work to complete the reuse study by

9 the deadline of April 30. They made a public

10 presentation to the task force at a recent

11 meeting and showed a lot of progress.

12 I think that the information that they

13 provide us will be helpful to the task force

14 and the local communities to know what

15 potential future options may exist, short

16 term and long term.

17 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Okay. And how

18 much replacement power is currently in

19 service?

20 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CONGDON: On the

21 replacement power front, as you may know, the

22 New York Independent System Operator

23 performed a feasibility assessment. They do

24 this for every power plant that closes.

314

1 And so they did an analysis of

2 Indian Point coming offline on the schedule

3 that was outlined in the settlement

4 agreement. And they look at both what the

5 projected demand is going to be on the system

6 as well as what resources they expect will be

7 online at the date that closure is occurring.

8 And they have a pretty high threshold

9 at the NYISO in terms of which resources to

10 include in the baseline. It's not enough,

11 for example, for a project simply to be

12 permitted. They've got to be showing the

13 NYISO that they're well underway in

14 construction for them to be counted in their

15 modeling analysis.

16 And so based on the resources that are

17 in service, the existing resources, as well

18 as resources that are sufficiently underway

19 in construction, and comparing that against

20 projected demand --

21 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: How many are in

22 that second category you just mentioned?

23 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CONGDON: Over 17,

24 1800 megawatts.

315

1 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Okay.

2 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CONGDON: In

3 construction, is what you're referring to?

4 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Yes. Yeah.

5 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CONGDON: And also we

6 should note that, you know, the Public

7 Service Commission had an Indian Point

8 closure proceeding that it commenced in 2013,

9 and approved transmission upgrades of around

10 600 megawatts, as well as demand response and

11 energy-efficiency improvements in the area to

12 help tamp down demand.

13 And so through a combination of all of

14 those resources, the NYISO concluded that

15 there is no reliability need for Indian Point

16 beyond the closure date in the settlement

17 agreement.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Okay. The task

19 force was also charged with assessing

20 retaining opportunities for the jobs that are

21 affected. How many programs have been

22 identified?

23 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CONGDON: There are

24 several existing programs. NYSERDA has

316

1 supported training programs for the renewable

2 energy sector. These will be detailed in the

3 task force report due in April. I know there

4 are several programs that will be included.

5 But more importantly, Department of

6 Labor is meeting with every individual

7 employee of the plant and determining for

8 each employee what the best track will be,

9 whether they want to participate in

10 retraining programs, whether there are other

11 employment opportunities within Entergy to

12 stay at the plant post-closure or at other

13 plants in the state or at other utilities in

14 the state.

15 And so there will be a detailed

16 employment plan for each individual wishing

17 to participate in that process.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: So there are

19 plans to keep some employees through the

20 decommissioning process?

21 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CONGDON: That will

22 be determined.

23 There will be a number of employees

24 that will have to stay on post-closure even

317

1 before decommissioning, just for the safe

2 transition of the fuel from the spent fuel

3 pools into dry cask storage.

4 So for the sort of transition between

5 closure and decommissioning, they will need

6 to maintain a certain number of staff both in

7 operations and in security. And that's

8 important -- even after decommissioning, they

9 will need to maintain a security force on the

10 site.

11 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Now, minus the

12 security force, how many jobs are we talking

13 about?

14 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CONGDON: The total

15 employees are approximately a thousand. And

16 there will be a gradual phase-out over the

17 years post-closure of those positions. And

18 like I said, a portion of those will be

19 necessary to be on-site for the transition

20 and for security.

21 There's a large percentage of the

22 employees who will be retirement-eligible at

23 that time. So they, I think, at Entergy

24 expect that there will be -- a certain amount

318

1 of the reductions will be achieved through

2 retirement.

3 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Okay, thank you.

4 Thank you.

5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

6 SENATOR O'MARA: Chairman, good

7 afternoon.

8 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Senator.

9 SENATOR O'MARA: Thanks for being

10 here.

11 A few questions on the Clean Energy

12 Fund, rather than the Clean Energy Standard.

13 How much has been collected so far under the

14 new rates imposed for the Clean Energy Fund

15 that are being paid by ratepayers on their

16 bills?

17 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Senator, I'll

18 have to get back to you on that. What I can

19 tell you is that the Clean Energy Fund, when

20 it was put in place I believe in February of

21 last year, both immediately started with a

22 collection reduction of I believe $85 million

23 from the prior year, and instituted basically

24 a pay-as-you-go model where, you know, the

319

1 collections would keep pace with the amount

2 needed to make the commitments that NYSERDA

3 was making.

4 So I'd have to get back to you on the

5 numbers, but the design of the Clean Energy

6 Fund was both to reduce collections and to

7 moderate the timing of those collections to

8 when those were actually needed to make

9 commitments.

10 SENATOR O'MARA: And is it correct

11 that the Clean Energy Fund, those fees being

12 collected were a replacement of all the other

13 fees that were on the bills, such as the 18A

14 fees, the RGGI fees, all these things that

15 are on there? Because we've got one line

16 item on there now for all this?

17 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: The Clean Energy

18 Fund collections really are a consolidation

19 of several other collections. There's kind

20 of an alphabet soup of EEPS and SBC and SBC2.

21 So it is a consolidation of those.

22 But it does not include the items that

23 you mentioned, 18A, which is on the bill, nor

24 does it include RGGI, which is a separate

320

1 financial path.

2 SENATOR O'MARA: So you really can't

3 tell me how much has been collected in the

4 Clean Energy Fund since last February?

5 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I'll have to get

6 back to you, because I know what we

7 authorized and I know we told -- I'm sorry,

8 the Public Service Commission at the time

9 told me, when I was at NYSERDA, to manage the

10 funding so as not to take it before it was

11 needed. And so it's -- there's a matter of

12 timing. I'll just have to get back to you on

13 where we stand on that.

14 SENATOR O'MARA: How much was in

15 reserves at the time the transition was made

16 to the Clean Energy Fund last February?

17 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I don't know.

18 I'll get back to you on that.

19 We shared the number with this

20 committee over the years. It was a larger

21 number than we liked, and is part of the

22 rationale behind the pay-as-you-go model we

23 implemented.

24 SENATOR O'MARA: I'm somewhat at a

321

1 loss that you don't have answers to these

2 pretty basic questions, coming here to

3 testify at our budget hearing today.

4 Can you tell me where the Clean Energy

5 Fund -- where are they being expended

6 throughout the last year?

7 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So the Clean

8 Energy Fund has four -- and the president of

9 NYSERDA is here. The Clean Energy Fund has

10 four portfolios, I believe they call them.

11 So there is NY-Sun, which is a billion-dollar

12 commitment to achieve 3 gigawatts of solar

13 deployment in the state. So that accounts

14 for about a billion of the Clean Energy

15 Fund's total.

16 There's capitalization of --

17 completion of the capitalization of the Green

18 Bank to the tune of about $840 million or

19 $850 million that is being drawn down as the

20 Green Bank is making its financial

21 commitments.

22 There's about $700 million to be spent

23 over 10 years on research and innovation.

24 And that is about the pace that it's going

322

1 on. And then there's about $2.7 billion,

2 again over 10 years, on something called

3 market development, which is principally

4 energy efficiency, although that's also the

5 vehicle for funding things that have been

6 talked about here today, like anaerobic

7 digesters and the like. So these energy

8 efficiency plus farm digestion setups account

9 for half of the spend of the Clean Energy

10 Fund.

11 SENATOR O'MARA: Was that market

12 development, was that $2.7 billion?

13 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Yes, over 10

14 years.

15 SENATOR O'MARA: With a B.

16 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Yes.

17 SENATOR O'MARA: Can you provide us

18 with specific breakdowns of each of those

19 portfolios you mentioned, as to where exactly

20 those resources are going?

21 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We can. And I

22 know that NYSERDA provides detailed reports

23 to both houses, I believe on a six-monthly

24 basis. But yes, we can certainly get you

323

1 that.

2 SENATOR O'MARA: Let me switch to

3 the -- I believe it's Part F, or the fees for

4 the infrastructure for running cables, fiber

5 optics, along rights-of-way.

6 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: This is a

7 Thruway Authority proposal or --

8 SENATOR O'MARA: Oh, is this DOT?

9 Okay, that's transportation. That's not

10 anything that PSC is overlooking?

11 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: No.

12 SENATOR O'MARA: All right. That's it

13 for now.

14 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Thank you,

15 Senator.

16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman

17 Englebright.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you

19 very much, gentlemen.

20 I'm concerned about the issues

21 relating to solar, and most particularly to

22 the way that solar is envisioned for the

23 future in order to meet the state's renewable

24 energy goals. There is a successful program

324

1 that's been helping to propel the small-scale

2 solar forward to the point where we now have

3 a measurable amount of solar on a statewide

4 basis with the net metering. Much of that is

5 on individual buildings and is located, you

6 know, really in a distributed model, as

7 opposed to a concentrated-site model. It has

8 created thousands of jobs of installers and

9 has been increasing welcomed by the general

10 public.

11 Now we have new regulations coming

12 down from the Public Service Commission which

13 have caused great concern to many of those

14 who are in this industry because these

15 regulations are confusing and have the

16 functional effect of causing what had been a

17 predictable incentive in the marketplace for

18 unpredictability. That has, in turn, brought

19 about a measurable, palpable

20 disincentivization within the marketplace to

21 continue to go in the direction of solar for

22 small-scale or distributed solar.

23 And some have suggested that net

24 metering is succeeding to register in the

325

1 market in such a way that it's a threat to

2 large-scale single-site energy providers, and

3 that they are behind this, this confusing set

4 of new expectations.

5 And so I wonder, what's your

6 perspective? Because it's coming from your

7 agency.

8 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So my view is

9 that I think solar remains a success. I

10 believe we have got about 1 gigawatt, 1,000

11 megawatts, installed in the state, and we

12 have about that much again in the pipeline

13 that is under development.

14 And for the first time -- and again, I

15 encourage you to talk to my colleague the

16 president of NYSERDA -- we have received

17 large -- the state has received, under their

18 solicitation, it's a very exciting

19 development, large-scale solar proposals,

20 some of which are quite competitive. So the

21 market momentum is continuing.

22 With respect to the issues that you

23 raise, the net metering does remain in place

24 for residential consumers -- rooftop solar.

326

1 For the next level up, which until last week

2 was up to 2 megawatts, there's been a

3 transition away from net metering to

4 something called value stack, which is --

5 it's a formula with a lot of terms in it, but

6 it's not that complicated for those who are

7 in the business and who can make it their

8 business to understand these things.

9 And particularly in a shared solar

10 model, it's fairly clear that the projects

11 are coming along unabated. And in the past

12 few months, while this has been going on,

13 we've had over a hundred of these community

14 solar projects move along, pay a hundred

15 percent of their development costs and

16 account for more than a third of the

17 pipeline.

18 And I made a little point about until

19 last week the size was up to 2 megawatts.

20 The commission ruled that we would increase

21 the cap for that mechanism to 5 megawatts,

22 which is a move that is welcomed by solar

23 developers. They like the idea. I'll be

24 frank; we did it to protect consumers,

327

1 because it reduces costs in a way that's

2 beneficial to our strategies and good for

3 ratepayers all around.

4 So there's complexity involved, but

5 we're making progress. The numbers in terms

6 of what's getting built and what's getting

7 invested in are extremely encouraging. And

8 despite the complexity of the process, the

9 developers still consider New York one of the

10 top states. And when they think about

11 regulatory stability, which is often a factor

12 for them, we compare very favorably to some

13 states in the Southwest where there's been

14 quite a bit of turmoil, and that's just not

15 something we have.

16 So if the objective is to get stuff

17 built, stuff that we want, that's happening.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Well,

19 "stuff" needs a little clarification.

20 Getting stuff built really should not be the

21 goal. The goal should be to reduce our

22 carbon footprint and to do it in a way that

23 has the maximum benefit for long-term

24 stability --

328

1 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's right,

2 sir.

3 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: -- and

4 maximum utilization of technology.

5 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's correct,

6 sir.

7 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: I am very

8 concerned, within that context, that I don't

9 see much coming from your agency regarding

10 the use -- maybe I just missed it, but I

11 don't see much regarding the marriage between

12 small-scale solar and geothermal on a

13 building-by-building basis, and instead I

14 hear you saying with excitement that

15 large-scale solar is --

16 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Sir, we're --

17 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: -- is

18 increasing, when in fact -- if I could just

19 finish -- it should, it seems to me, be

20 small-scale solar that should be increasing.

21 And I am concerned that if we come

22 back and look at this emphasis that's coming

23 from your agency toward large-scale solar to

24 essentially replace or be a part of

329

1 large-scale corporate investments made in the

2 past for single-site energy provision, that

3 this is a misdirection and not the best use

4 of the technology.

5 Something like two-thirds of our

6 energy footprint statewide is in heating and

7 cooling. Why are we not trying to develop

8 on-site single-building and small-scale for

9 attached buildings, the use of the latent

10 heating groundwater driven by solar pushing a

11 small motor? Rather than to have a

12 substitute power plant that is essentially

13 using solar technology and is being pushed by

14 investors who are really not so interested in

15 the appropriate goals of reducing the

16 reliance and dependency on large single-site

17 investment, but instead to have a distributed

18 investment?

19 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Let me correct

20 an impression. When I said that the pipeline

21 that we have this year, that's going to get

22 built within months, is more than double what

23 we already have installed, that pipeline was

24 all smaller-scale. In addition, we're seeing

330

1 good news on the larger-scale, which I think

2 is good news for the state.

3 So we are absolutely encouraging of,

4 both in design of our policies and programs

5 and in the effects that are happening in the

6 market, of rooftop solar and of solar

7 on-premises that makes sense for customers.

8 And we are absolutely convinced that

9 distributed solutions -- and solar is the

10 pioneer of distributed solutions -- are

11 really good for our energy and climate

12 system.

13 And I will agree with you that

14 geothermal as a solution to -- basically for

15 renewable heating and cooling, is a

16 technology whose time has come, and it is

17 here and now, and it's not too soon.

18 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: No, it's not

19 too soon. And it will have a dramatic

20 impact. I'm just looking forward 20 years

21 from now. I hope that we have in fact a

22 distributed model that is the main model --

23 we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

24 We can have some large-scale sites. As you

331

1 rightly point out, those are -- they have a

2 place. But the emphasis that comes from your

3 agency will help drive the long-term

4 percentage of what we see as either

5 distributed or large-scale single-site.

6 And I'm hoping that you will help push

7 and allow what was happening because, quite

8 frankly, the net metering approach wasn't

9 broken, and you're fixing something that

10 wasn't broken with your new complex

11 regulations.

12 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: You can count on

13 our commitment to distributed, sir.

14 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

16 SENATOR O'MARA: Senator Krueger.

17 SENATOR KRUEGER: Good afternoon.

18 So going back to the REV questions, so

19 the state's made a commitment to reach 50

20 percent renewable energy by 2030. California

21 says it can do it by 2020.

22 So two questions. One, are we on

23 target to meet 50 percent renewable energy by

24 2030? And what could we do to get there

332

1 sooner?

2 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: First question,

3 yes, as I -- it's the same answer I gave to

4 Assemblyman Cusick. We are on track to get

5 there.

6 To get there sooner, we're going to

7 rely on and bet on some technology progress.

8 And the way the world is working these days

9 is that pretty much every aspect of clean

10 energy technology is getting cheaper and more

11 cost-effective. You think you're watching

12 television prices come down, but -- and it's

13 good news across the board.

14 The two that offer the most promise --

15 and again, I'm going to put my colleague on

16 the spot, but offshore wind has seen a cost

17 decline in the last two years of 50 percent.

18 Costs have come down by half, which is

19 remarkable and extremely promising. And when

20 coupled with just the fact that New York

21 State is beautifully located with a terrific

22 resource, offshore downstate, that's very

23 encouraging and should help us get to our

24 goals in some combination of faster, cheaper

333

1 and higher certainty.

2 And the other technology -- which is

3 not strictly about renewables, but you can

4 see as I mention it that it is very

5 renewable-enabling -- is storage. And it's

6 an absolute requirement, as you have more

7 renewables come onto the system, that you

8 have a way to store that energy for smarter,

9 later, more helpful to the system, more

10 useful when consumers need it use of that

11 energy.

12 And that too is seeing cost declines

13 as well as really terrific, you know,

14 advances in software that just make the

15 solutions more useful. And that's coming in

16 all sizes, including the kind of sizes that

17 we care most about for the energy system.

18 SENATOR KRUEGER: So I'm going to bet

19 with you that we could do it sooner and we

20 could do it cheaper, because I read the

21 reports coming out from around the world and

22 go, oh, it's happening so quickly, and prices

23 are coming down and people are being able to

24 scale up with new sustainable energy.

334

1 So if that's true -- and I'm very

2 optimistic that it is -- why are we at the

3 same time massively expanding our natural gas

4 infrastructure in New York State, when that

5 doesn't fall under the category of clean and

6 sustainable energy?

7 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Well, I'm going

8 to dispute the characterization that we're

9 massively expanding our natural gas

10 infrastructure. We're taking a measured

11 approach to the expansion of the

12 infrastructure that we have a say over, which

13 is really the distribution of an

14 infrastructure, and where it makes economic

15 sense and where it provides environmental

16 benefit by displacing even other fuel, fossil

17 fuels which are worse actors, it's good for

18 New Yorkers, and it can make sense as part of

19 the integrated plan.

20 Our bet with you, which we make with

21 some confidence, is that the renewable

22 technologies, the cleaner technologies are

23 just going to get cheaper and better. And as

24 you create more of those options, then you

335

1 can steer the portfolio. And so it's a

2 measured approach. We do it in those cases

3 where it makes sense. And I can just see the

4 fundamental economics diminishing in the

5 realms where it's going to make sense over

6 time.

7 SENATOR KRUEGER: And I said massive

8 expansion because I believe the Albany Times

9 Union today had an editorial talking about a

10 report that came out I think while we were

11 sitting in this room, with 23 new natural gas

12 infrastructure projects on the table by the

13 Cuomo administration. So that sounded like a

14 lot to me.

15 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That may be --

16 those probably are not of the ones that come

17 before us if they're pipelines and the like.

18 To the extent that they're generation

19 projects, they will come before the Siting

20 Board. The Siting Board, of course -- I

21 shouldn't say of course -- is very directly

22 concerned with environmental and community

23 impacts as well as cost-effectiveness and our

24 policy alignment.

336

1 SENATOR KRUEGER: Change of topic. So

2 over the last few months, many of us have

3 been following the story of a very bad FCC

4 decision killing net neutrality standards

5 that were put into effect by the Obama

6 administration. There's lawsuits, the

7 Governor has a commitment to trying to keep

8 us in net neutrality in New York, and has put

9 out an executive order saying agencies and

10 municipalities can't enter internet

11 contracts -- excuse me, they can't enter

12 contracts with service providers who don't

13 respect net neutrality.

14 But what can we do to protect private

15 consumers and their right to net neutrality

16 within New York State?

17 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Well, I believe

18 that the intent of the executive order is not

19 just to protect those state entity consumers

20 but to use the power of an important and

21 meaningful customer in order to persuade, as

22 you can in our market economy, providers that

23 these are the standards, you know, that they

24 should stick to.

337

1 So those policies are for all

2 consumers, to the benefit of all consumers,

3 and to protect them against the erosion of

4 net neutrality.

5 SENATOR KRUEGER: And this shows my

6 lack of understanding, but I was in

7 discussions just yesterday morning with city

8 colleagues in New York City government about

9 frustrations around the failure of

10 Charter/Spectrum to deliver on their

11 commitments for internet service through the

12 franchise agreement with the city, and the

13 discussion about what the city couldn't do

14 about it because of the FCC superseding.

15 And I'm just curious, do we think the

16 state, through the PSC or through some other

17 role that the state might have about

18 franchises throughout the state except for

19 New York City, could use their power somehow

20 to ensure that if you don't follow our

21 definition of net neutrality, you're just not

22 getting contracts to franchise or do anything

23 anywhere in our state?

24 And again, it was a badly worded

338

1 question, but hopefully you understand.

2 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Sure. So when

3 the commission approved Charter's acquisition

4 of Time Warner Cable, which I believe was

5 about two years ago, that approval was

6 conditioned upon some commitments by the

7 company. And although, as a standard

8 regulatory matter, the commission does not

9 have great regulatory jurisdiction over cable

10 and broadband companies, we do have

11 enforcement power over contractual

12 commitments, settlement commitments that

13 companies make to us.

14 And so we are very mindful of holding

15 in this case Charter -- but honestly, we hold

16 every company to the standard of keeping

17 their commitments. And in this case we're

18 especially focused on the broadband buildout,

19 which is an upstate endeavor. But to the

20 extent that they are falling short on

21 commitments on other dimensions, including

22 fulfillment of their franchise agreement

23 conditions, and to the extent that they are

24 falling short in other parts of the state,

339

1 not just upstate, we are going to be

2 extremely attentive and are going to use --

3 we're going to be hawks on making them keep

4 their commitment.

5 SENATOR KRUEGER: So I might do some

6 matchmaking between you and the City of

7 New York on this issue. I think that the

8 Attorney General is also suing on some of the

9 issues, so --

10 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I believe that's

11 the case.

12 SENATOR KRUEGER: Yes. All right.

13 Thank you very much. My time is up.

14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman

15 Jenne.

16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Thank you.

17 Good afternoon.

18 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Hi.

19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: I'm going to

20 probably -- a little wide-ranging things

21 here.

22 You mentioned that the Governor

23 desires to capture the windfall that the

24 utilities are going to have from the federal

340

1 tax plan. Is that correct?

2 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: The commission

3 is pursuing a proceeding to capture that

4 windfall for the benefit of New York

5 customers, yes.

6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Okay, perfect.

7 So that benefit is where I'd like to zero in

8 on. And I just wonder if those specific

9 benefits have been identified or if there

10 will just be an offset on the bill. You

11 know, a -- or how do we plan to deliver that

12 benefit?

13 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So there are

14 options available to us. One of the things

15 about my job is that when we open a

16 proceeding, I can't really comment on it in

17 great detail. I'm discovering it. But I

18 think I can listen to suggestions.

19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Okay. Well, you

20 know, as -- you know, as important as it is

21 to try to keep our bills low in the short

22 term, I also think it's important for us to

23 maybe try to tackle some issues that have

24 plagued the state for quite some time. And

341

1 while I know that it was referenced that in

2 2013 we made some investments in upgrading

3 transmission, I would argue that I still have

4 difficulty getting the energy that's produced

5 in my region of the state to other regions of

6 the state that would really like our power

7 that we generate.

8 And so I think it would benefit all of

9 the state, both the power-producing,

10 generating parts of the state and those that

11 need more energy, if we would invest more

12 into upgrading transmission so that the

13 energy can flow freely throughout the state.

14 That also leads me into the siting

15 issues. And, you know, one of my colleagues

16 talked extensively about having these big

17 generating facilities and should we be

18 looking more at distributive types of

19 generation, although the big facilities do

20 have their place.

21 Well, I have these facilities that

22 have their place, but we're bringing in,

23 proposed in the pipeline, these renewables

24 that because of the problems with

342

1 transmission are closing down existing

2 generating facilities. Specifically I have

3 biomass facilities that are closing down

4 because they can't make it, even though

5 they're green energy, because they can't sell

6 their power into more lucrative markets

7 because of problems with transmission -- yet

8 I've got 10 wind power facilities either in

9 the queue or in development at some level.

10 And that doesn't even touch what you're

11 talking about in terms of the solar

12 proliferation and how great those things are.

13 And so, you know, I'm from farm

14 country, so we're putting the cart before the

15 horse because we can't get the power out of

16 my area. And why are we allowing existing

17 sited generation that now is part of our

18 landscape to shut down so that we can throw

19 even more money per megawatt at just a

20 different type of green energy generation?

21 So I just -- I have concerns that our

22 goal is laudable but we're really screwing up

23 the on-the-ground details.

24 I'll add into this issue I guess a

343

1 question. I've heard rumors that Fort Drum

2 is going to be given a seat on the siting

3 board for these projects that are in close

4 proximity. What is the status of those

5 discussions, as I understand that they're

6 emanating from the Governor's office -- has

7 Fort Drum been given a spot on the board for

8 these projects that are near them? And if

9 so, is it a voting position or anything of

10 that nature, or are they just going to be

11 able to nod or go back and forth?

12 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: The proposal to

13 give I believe the Department of Defense a

14 seat on the board is something I read about

15 this morning, and it was news to me. So --

16 it was Senator Ritchie's proposal, as I read

17 it. But --

18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: I'll just say

19 that proposal emanates from something I think

20 that came out of -- came from the Governor

21 directly. It is something that was told to

22 us as local legislators would happen, it

23 wouldn't necessitate the need for legislative

24 action. You know, we can differ about what

344

1 needs to happen, but that was something that

2 was communicated to us, as local

3 representatives, that would happen.

4 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So I have to

5 defer to you, you're aware of facts that I

6 don't know.

7 But let me talk about -- if I can

8 respond a little bit to the larger question,

9 which is, you know, we -- we absolutely

10 believe that Fort Drum, the base, and the

11 Department of Defense -- and however they

12 want to tag-team that between them -- deserve

13 an important hearing when it comes to siting

14 these projects. And we've been in discussion

15 with both -- with senior officials at the

16 Department of Defense and at the base and

17 have done the best we can to explain our

18 Article 10 process, the one that governs the

19 work of the Siting Board that I mentioned.

20 And they have been very clear that they

21 believe that the Siting Board as it is set up

22 gives them the right venue to make their

23 concerns heard and to hear -- to have those

24 concerns be accommodated in a way that makes

345

1 most sense for all the considerations that

2 have to be balanced.

3 So in the larger picture, the

4 Article 10 process needs to -- and I think is

5 designed to -- find a way to include those

6 concerns and get them handled, mitigated,

7 reflected in whatever way that's needed.

8 You mentioned other kinds of

9 renewables, I assume you're talking about --

10 you mentioned biomass and --

11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: Yes. And, you

12 know, hydro is near and dear to my heart as

13 well.

14 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Yes. And we've

15 -- we issued late last fall a maintenance

16 tier order that specifically gives those

17 facilities that are in economic need a

18 pathway to getting the missing money met so

19 they can stay in operation. And it's our

20 understanding that some of the facilities

21 that you're referring to are in fact, you

22 know, moving forward to take advantage of

23 that. It's our understanding that for their

24 own business reasons, some of the biomass

346

1 projects are making other decisions.

2 And then you mentioned transmission as

3 a -- I forget what words you used, but to me

4 it sounded like unbottling this resource.

5 And absolutely that needs to happen, and it

6 needs to happen in a smart and thoughtful

7 way. Again, siting rears its head as an

8 issue with transmission lines. But --

9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: I'd rather have

10 a power line than a 5-mile line of tankers or

11 barges lined up in the Hudson.

12 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Understood. So

13 not to -- only to say this is a process that

14 needs to be worked. But the Governor has

15 laid down some markers, and we're near

16 completion of the Energy Highway with the

17 AC transmission when that unfolds later this

18 year. And we're looking ahead.

19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: All right, I

20 just think --

21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

22 We'll move on to the Senate.

23 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Thank you.

24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: I'll come back.

347

1 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay, good.

2 So there was -- Senator O'Mara started

3 the discussion about the Clean Energy

4 Standard and REV. And as far as the CES

5 goes, the Clean Energy Standard, as you know,

6 this system was put in place without the

7 input of the Legislature. And the CES,

8 however, is largely funded by ratepayers,

9 slash, taxpayers. So can you tell us, give

10 us an accounting of how much has been

11 collected from the taxpayers since the CES

12 was put in place?

13 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I will get that

14 to you. I believe you're talking both about

15 the Clean Energy Fund, with an F, which I

16 think was Senator O'Mara's focus -- but we

17 could also talk about the billing tax

18 associated with the Clean Energy Standard.

19 We'll get you an accounting of that

20 information.

21 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay. Could you

22 ballpark it, guesstimate how much?

23 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: The Clean Energy

24 Fund had authorizations last year of 500 --

348

1 in the high 500s of authorized. As I

2 explained --

3 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: 500 million?

4 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Yes. And as I

5 explained to Senator O'Mara, under the

6 pay-as-you-go construct that was adopted,

7 what was actually collected was considerably

8 less, so that's what I have to get to you.

9 And that number is coming down steadily each

10 year. And so we can get you both the

11 authorized numbers as those come down, as

12 well as the collection numbers.

13 And the Clean Energy Standard is --

14 it's hard to do just now, and I say this

15 because the first major action under the

16 Clean Energy Standard is a significant

17 procurement that is near completion with

18 NYSERDA, and I'm not privy to the numbers

19 that they will ultimately release. But as

20 soon as those become available, and hopefully

21 they'll be completing their work soon, we can

22 certainly share with you the consequences --

23 the impact on ratepayers of that as well.

24 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: And so just to

349

1 clarify, that money came directly out of

2 ratepayers.

3 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's right.

4 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay. Thank you.

5 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Or will come.

6 But yes.

7 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay. And you said

8 it's being worked on right now as far as

9 accounting for it. When will that be ready?

10 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I'm sorry, we

11 can get you the accounting for the Clean

12 Energy Fund by the end of the week.

13 To the extent that we're talking about

14 the renewable procurement, which is the

15 Clean Energy Standard -- I'm sorry to be so

16 fussy -- NYSERDA has work to do to complete

17 its procurement and decide how much of what

18 it's actually going to do. Once that work is

19 complete, we'll be in a position to quickly

20 turn around an estimate of ratepayer impact

21 for you.

22 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay. So thank you

23 for that answer.

24 So we're talking about more -- much

350

1 more than $500 million in additional costs to

2 ratepayers in New York State. Can you please

3 provide us with an accounting of exactly how

4 that money will be used that the ratepayers,

5 the taxpayers have given the state?

6 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Yes. That is in

7 fact laid out in the Clean Energy Fund, and

8 it is laid out in reports that again the

9 Senate and the Assembly asked for from

10 NYSERDA I believe two years ago and you've

11 been receiving on a six-monthly basis since

12 then. But we can certainly get you the

13 latest accounting.

14 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Now, the Green Bank

15 is part of the Clean Energy Fund, correct?

16 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's right.

17 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay. So Part EE

18 of the Governor's proposal authorizes NYSERDA

19 to obtain revenue from a special assessment

20 on gas and electric companies not to exceed

21 $19.7 million for certain projects, including

22 NYSERDA's Energy Policy and Planning Program,

23 which involves the Green Bank.

24 As you know, the Green Bank is a

351

1 state-run investment bank funded by NYSERDA

2 using funds from utility customers. And it

3 is one part of the state's 10-year,

4 $5 billion Clean Energy Fund.

5 So how many people does the Green Bank

6 employ, where are their offices, and how is

7 the staff organized?

8 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I'm going to

9 suggest that you direct those questions to

10 the president of NYSERDA, who's right behind

11 me.

12 I could give you estimates that I'm

13 familiar with as of -- I could give you the

14 numbers that I'm familiar with as of seven

15 months ago, but ...

16 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay, so you don't

17 have direct knowledge of those, even though

18 they're part of the Clean Energy Fund?

19 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Well, you're

20 asking relative -- I believe the number of

21 the staff is probably in the 17 or 18 range.

22 The offices are in NYSERDA's offices in New

23 York City. And I'm sorry, I forget the third

24 element you asked about.

352

1 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay, so I will

2 follow up on that.

3 But back to the Clean Energy Standard,

4 taxpayers were promised that they would see

5 savings in their utility bills, which was

6 even built into the annual investment plan

7 report that was issued on June 30th of 2017.

8 Can you say when they will start to see these

9 savings?

10 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We're already

11 starting to see savings. A good example of

12 that is the Brooklyn-Queens Demand Management

13 Project in Brooklyn and Queens in the city,

14 where under REV, the commission -- the

15 department worked with Con Ed to develop an

16 approach to make smarter investments which I

17 believe have already resulted in cost savings

18 of 97 or so million dollars.

19 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: So is there a place

20 where this is quantified? Is there some kind

21 of report that the Legislature can look at

22 regarding this?

23 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We can get that

24 to you.

353

1 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: That would be

2 helpful.

3 And then can you point on a consumer's

4 bill, is there a section on the bill where

5 you can show that the consumers are being

6 charged for this cost? Because as you know,

7 there are other taxes and fees and so on,

8 charges on a consumer's bill, that are

9 outlined. But I don't believe that the CES

10 costs are outlined on the bills. Is that the

11 case?

12 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I'm sorry, Clean

13 Energy Standard or Fund?

14 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: I apologize. Fund.

15 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Those I believe

16 are outlined. But I will confirm. But let

17 me get back to you.

18 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Yes, I would like

19 to see that. Because it's my understanding

20 that it's not outlined.

21 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I'll make sure

22 to get the facts to you.

23 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Okay, thank you.

24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman

354

1 Colton.

2 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: (Inaudible.)

3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Mic.

4 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: I think it's on

5 now, yes.

6 Earlier you had indicated that about a

7 quarter, or 24 percent, estimated about

8 24 percent renewable energy was of the

9 electricity in New York, and that -- did you

10 say solar was about 1 percent?

11 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I did.

12 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: And 3 percent

13 wind.

14 What are the other percentages --

15 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: It's principally

16 hydro.

17 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Okay, so

18 probably -- basically hydro.

19 Now, in terms of hydro, do you have

20 oversight over projects that develop with

21 hydro-generated electricity?

22 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: It's -- it's a

23 mixed story. There are larger hydro

24 facilities that tend to be operated by the

355

1 New York Power Authority. There are smaller

2 facilities that are of the magnitude that

3 Assemblywoman Jenne was speaking about that

4 go up to 10 megawatts or so, that we do have

5 jurisdiction over. And we provide various

6 policy and program supports to.

7 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Have you -- are

8 you aware of any hydro-generated projects

9 that have been -- basically come online in

10 the last year or so?

11 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: There are

12 possibly some upgrades that have expanded

13 capacity, but I'm not aware of any -- I'm not

14 sure what the right word is -- greenfield.

15 But, you know, from-scratch projects.

16 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: So would you

17 believe that most of the increase in

18 renewables -- which we're going to have to do

19 to reach the goal and even exceed the goal,

20 we would hope -- would have to come from

21 non-hydro sources? Or what would be your

22 expectation?

23 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: My expectations

24 are that solar and wind, including the

356

1 offshore flavor of wind, are going to be --

2 it's a near certainty that those will be the

3 principal pillars of that achievement.

4 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: And are there any

5 initiatives that we can use in order to

6 increase the amount of wind and solar so that

7 we can continue to move towards the goal and,

8 as I said, hopefully reach it sooner and

9 greater?

10 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We believe that

11 the package of policies and initiatives that

12 we have -- well, we're sure that the package

13 of initiatives that we have is the best that

14 we can come up with as we understand it

15 today.

16 So those principally are, where

17 appropriate, support funding for certain

18 projects -- the Clean Energy Standard and

19 NY-Sun are examples of that. They are

20 policies that recognize the reality that in

21 some places, distributed solutions like solar

22 actually add value to the grid. And if you

23 add value to the grid, maybe you should get

24 paid for some of that value you add, which

357

1 would make the project more investable.

2 So that's at the heart of REV that

3 we're working on. And locational as well as

4 the idea that if the solar is producing at

5 the time of day when it's most needed --

6 facing west, so afternoon peak, that same

7 thing.

8 We are working to get and may keep our

9 siting policies focused on appropriate

10 siting. There are places that are suitable

11 for these renewables. There are places that

12 are less suitable for these renewables.

13 There are places where there's -- where the

14 community concerns and sentiments are deeply

15 in favor of these renewables, and there are

16 other places where those are not the case.

17 All those considerations need to be

18 accommodated.

19 And then as Congressman Jenne --

20 excuse me, Assemblywoman Jenne pointed out --

21 I didn't say that.

22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JENNE: (Inaudible.)

23 (Laughter.)

24 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Sorry. Making

358

1 sure that we have, again, an appropriately

2 sited transmission system that gets the

3 energy from where it makes sense to produce

4 it to where it wants to be consumed, that we

5 have those as well.

6 So those are the main ingredients.

7 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: My time is about

8 up, but I just wanted to say that I agree

9 with the chair of the Environmental Committee

10 in terms of the concern about individual

11 solar projects and net metering and so forth

12 as it affects them.

13 Thank you.

14 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Senator O'Mara.

15 SENATOR O'MARA: Yes, Chairman,

16 following up on the Clean Energy Standard.

17 And you responded to a few questions that we

18 are on target to meet those percentages going

19 forward?

20 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Yes, I did.

21 SENATOR O'MARA: And the investment in

22 the clean energy, where has that been coming

23 from?

24 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Historically

359

1 it's come from a few buckets, and going

2 forward it's coming from a few buckets.

3 There's a little bit of time shift. But

4 historically there is a Renewable Portfolio

5 Standard, which --

6 SENATOR O'MARA: Those -- I think you

7 misinterpreted my question. Those are

8 sources of funds that you're helping assist

9 these projects with. What industry, what

10 companies are making the investments and

11 undertaking these clean energy projects?

12 They're not state-owned and -developed

13 projects; correct?

14 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Some of them in

15 fact are state-owned companies. All of them,

16 by definition -- these are construction

17 projects, effectively, and construction is a

18 local activity. And the job generation

19 associated with these projects is local job

20 generation. In some cases, there is

21 meaningful -- the meaningful job generation

22 is you build it and then it's there; in other

23 cases --

24 SENATOR O'MARA: Yeah, but -- but who

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1 owns it when it's built?

2 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: The developer

3 owns it. In some cases --

4 SENATOR O'MARA: Can you break down

5 who the types of developers are -- private

6 industry, private marketplace, government,

7 utilities?

8 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: The developers

9 are all private companies. From time to time

10 the resource is owned by the property owner,

11 because that's a model that exists. To the

12 extent that that property owner is a

13 government entity, such as a school, then

14 they own it. But by and large those property

15 owners with solar, generally, on their

16 premises are private entities as well. Or

17 not-for-profits such as other schools.

18 SENATOR O'MARA: Right, okay.

19 So we're meeting our goals and

20 standards with private investment into

21 these --

22 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's the

23 design, and that's what's happening.

24 SENATOR O'MARA: And we're doing that.

361

1 So can you tell me why we need to authorize

2 NYPA to construct their own renewable energy

3 facilities?

4 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I think that's a

5 question best posed to NYPA.

6 SENATOR O'MARA: Is that -- you're

7 working with the Clean Energy Standard, and

8 certainly those projects are going to factor

9 into that. You're saying you're not involved

10 with that at all?

11 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We -- we

12 administer the Clean Energy Standard, and we

13 have designed and work with NYSERDA to help

14 them design aspects of it that, you know,

15 welcome all developers that make sense.

16 SENATOR O'MARA: But if we're meeting

17 our goals with private marketplace

18 investment, then why does a governmental

19 entity have to get involved in the process?

20 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I think you'd

21 have to ask NYPA what the business case is.

22 And I'm sure they have one if it's their

23 proposal.

24 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. Of our

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1 renewable energy that we have -- I forgot

2 what percentage you said. What percentage

3 are we at now of our whole renewable

4 portfolio in the state?

5 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I -- if you'll

6 accept an estimate, I'd say we're at about 28

7 or 29.

8 SENATOR O'MARA: And how much of that

9 is hydro?

10 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: About 24.

11 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. So 4 percent

12 is solar and wind at this point?

13 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: And I believe

14 that it's approximately 3 percent wind and 1

15 percent solar.

16 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. So we've got a

17 large percentage to make up with wind and

18 solar.

19 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's correct.

20 SENATOR O'MARA: Because there's

21 really not a whole lot of expandable hydro at

22 this point.

23 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We believe there

24 is -- as a matter of geographic potential,

363

1 there is some hydro. And certainly we're

2 willing to accept all good resources. But

3 you're right, the emphasis -- the weight, if

4 you will, will be on solar and wind.

5 SENATOR O'MARA: And we're about

6 1 percent solar right now?

7 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's right.

8 SENATOR O'MARA: And how much do you

9 think you can expand that with rooftop solar?

10 What's the goal there?

11 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We're -- we're

12 more convinced that the economics favor

13 ground-mounted solar than rooftop solar.

14 Ground-mounted as in a field at the facility.

15 The numbers are just better, and

16 that's a more appealing investment, since as

17 you pointed out, we're trying to harness the

18 private investor. And as I mentioned, we

19 have some hopes that there's the emergence of

20 viable, investable large-scale solar as well.

21 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. One of the

22 state's largest investments in economic

23 development is Solar City in Buffalo. Their

24 focus is rooftop solar, is my understanding.

364

1 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I believe that

2 the plant in Buffalo makes panels. The

3 panels -- I don't know how else to say this

4 -- don't care where they go. The panels can

5 go ground-mounted or they can go rooftop.

6 I believe that there's a separate

7 division of Solar City -- not the panel

8 manufacture, but let's make a business of

9 selling these things -- that is focused on

10 rooftops, and I believe they also have a very

11 active business in ground-mounted.

12 SENATOR O'MARA: Well, I believe

13 they're developing panels that will take the

14 place of shingles on a roof, that would be

15 your entire roof surface.

16 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's -- that's

17 -- that notion of what they call built-in

18 photovoltaic is an exciting development. I

19 don't think it's quite ready -- it's not

20 ready for prime time in the market just yet.

21 SENATOR O'MARA: As far as

22 ground-mounted, in your experience and what

23 you're seeing in your work on the Clean

24 Energy Standard, what is the economical size

365

1 of a solar field, acreage-wise, to be

2 cost-effective?

3 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: It varies, of

4 course. But we've seen -- I think it's --

5 the bottom end is probably a megawatt, which

6 is probably around 7 acres. And then it goes

7 up to 5 now, with our new cap.

8 SENATOR O'MARA: Up to 5?

9 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Excuse me, up to

10 5 megawatts, 35 acres. But I think that's

11 the range for ground-mounted.

12 That said, there clearly are use

13 cases, if you will, where you can do that at

14 a smaller level. For comparison, a megawatt

15 is about 200 rooftops.

16 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. One thing I've

17 always been perplexed about with the --

18 particularly the Solar City project, where

19 it's a business that we've funded largely in

20 New York State to encourage people to put

21 rooftop solar on their homes --

22 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I beg your

23 pardon?

24 SENATOR O'MARA: They want to

366

1 encourage people to put solar on their

2 rooftops, correct? Wherever, whether it's

3 acreage in a field --

4 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Yeah.

5 SENATOR O'MARA: But I'm perplexed by

6 the fact that they built a 23-acre facility

7 with a 23-acre rooftop and they don't have

8 one solar panel on it. Can you explain that?

9 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I can't, sir.

10 SENATOR O'MARA: Well, neither can I.

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

13 Assemblyman Carroll.

14 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Thank you, Chair

15 Weinstein.

16 Good afternoon. I would like to go

17 back to our questioning around switching from

18 net metering to VDER for residential use.

19 I'm highly concerned that as we switch, as we

20 approach the 2020 deadline when the switch

21 would happen, that there would be a net

22 chilling effect by both financiers of

23 residential solar projects and the consumers

24 of that product, because they can't figure

367

1 out what they will actually get out of their

2 solar panel on their roof, on their

3 residential roof.

4 So I was wondering, is the PSC

5 considering a floor for value put back into

6 the -- for energy put back into the system?

7 So that when people invest in these projects,

8 when individual consumers invest in these

9 projects, they understand at least at a

10 minimum how much they will get back out of

11 system?

12 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So I think

13 it's -- thank you, Assemblyman. I think it's

14 too early to say we're actively considering

15 that specific option or any other option.

16 What we do know is that a rate design,

17 if you will, that's too complicated for

18 people to understand is almost certainly

19 guaranteed to have a chilling effect. So

20 that will not make sense, and that will not

21 be what we do.

22 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Then what do you

23 say to the folks who have installed these

24 panels, who have looked at the current VDER

368

1 model who say that the current VDER model is

2 too hard to understand around a dinner table

3 when someone is thinking of whether to invest

4 in one of these systems?

5 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We need to come

6 up with -- you say dinner table, but, you

7 know, our term is kitchen table -- a kitchen

8 table answer that someone can say yes to

9 with, you know, ordinary intelligent

10 questions and get an answer and say yes or no

11 in 20 minutes. That's I think the model; we

12 need to get there.

13 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: And going back

14 to what you have said to some of my other

15 colleagues, is the PSC interested in fully

16 investing in making sure that residential

17 solar use is a priority? Or is the PSC's

18 priority solely based on large solar projects

19 in open fields?

20 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: The PSC's

21 interest is driving what's right for New

22 Yorkers. And there are -- it's complicated,

23 but quite simply, the closer the resource,

24 the panel, is to the customer, the more value

369

1 it provides. And if you have, you know,

2 panels on a roof, 5 kilowatts at one extreme

3 and 50 megawatts in a field outside Syracuse

4 300 miles away, they provide vastly different

5 amounts of value to the system in terms of

6 how they respond to the local energy needs

7 and the reliance on pipeline and investments.

8 That's the engineer wonk side.

9 And consumers get to vote. And

10 there's something that's -- that's -- that

11 they say yes to that's panels on their roof.

12 And so yes, we're absolutely attentive to

13 that sector.

14 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: So what is the

15 PSC -- what measures is the PSC prepared to

16 make so that that environmental value that I

17 think you're talking about -- you know, in my

18 district in Brooklyn, there are no open

19 fields, but what I do know is that there are

20 solar power panel companies in Brooklyn right

21 now that every set of solar panels that they

22 put on a roof in Brooklyn, they're taking

23 another home off the grid. And if we get

24 smart battery technology and smart policy,

370

1 that those homes -- and if we get a

2 collection of homes on a block -- will not

3 only be able to generate energy for

4 themselves but their neighbors.

5 And how is the PSC going to make sure

6 that as we go into this VDER model that that

7 kind of capture is valued at the appropriate

8 rate? Because I think that's what folks are

9 afraid of, that we're not going to get the

10 appropriate rate, that net metering currently

11 we at least have a standard that we can wrap

12 our hands around and that if we go into 2020

13 without understanding that, we're going to

14 chill the kind of ingenuity and momentum

15 that's going on in New York City, where

16 75 percent of our greenhouse emissions are

17 from buildings.

18 And we need to take as many of these

19 homes off the grid, I think, as possible over

20 the next number of years so we hit that

21 standard of 50 percent renewable energy by

22 2030.

23 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So I agree that

24 that needs to be the standard. I commit that

371

1 that's what we'll be trying to do. I can't

2 commit that we're going to solve the lack of

3 open space in Brooklyn problem, but we have

4 to have our policies that work in the world

5 as we have it. So absolutely.

6 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Thank you.

7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman

8 Cusick for a second.

9 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Thank you.

10 Just quickly, I want to just ask a

11 follow-up on Senator Young's questions on the

12 Clean Energy Standard. Could you also

13 provide the Assembly Energy Committee with

14 those numbers on the ratepayers, the impact

15 on the ratepayers?

16 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I'd assumed that

17 I'd done that. But for avoidance of doubt,

18 yes.

19 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Well, I have

20 found, sir, I never assume anything around

21 here.

22 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Well, then, in

23 the spirit of redundancy, yes, I commit to

24 that.

372

1 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Yes. And I --

2 that was part of my questioning. The other

3 question I had was concerning the ESCOs.

4 You mentioned in your testimony that

5 reforming the ESCO market remains a priority.

6 Could you just give us a little detail on

7 that? Or is there a report on what you have

8 found regarding ESCOs in the last year, and

9 what there have been in clamping down on some

10 of the bad practices and the bad actors in

11 the ESCO field?

12 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So there was an

13 initial investigation of the impact of the

14 bad practices or the questionable practices,

15 if you will, of the ESCOs. And I believe

16 that that investigation yielded a number that

17 customers in the state had overpaid by a

18 little north of $800 million. And that

19 specifically low-income, a more vulnerable

20 set of New Yorkers, had overpaid by

21 $96 million.

22 There is litigation going on in this

23 case which is yielding a fair amount of

24 testimony, which generally on our side tends

373

1 to amplify and validate those numbers. And

2 we are pursuing that litigation, and it

3 restricts my ability to make comments, but --

4 to comment too much. But obviously our

5 mission is to be protective of New York and

6 avoid these practices and avoid those

7 consequences.

8 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Okay. And could

9 you get back to us, though, on what

10 specifically the PSC has implemented to cut

11 down on these bad practices?

12 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So there's the

13 litigation that's going on as a general

14 matter. And then specifically with respect

15 to -- I mentioned low-income customers as a

16 set of New Yorkers of special concern. We

17 have issued a prohibition against ESCOs

18 serving low-income customers unless they can

19 demonstrate to our satisfaction that they can

20 guarantee no excess costs in their contract

21 compared to utility service.

22 And I believe that we now have six or

23 seven ESCOs that have come forward through

24 our process and been able to demonstrate the

374

1 ability to guarantee savings or at least no

2 cost increase. And so they are -- they're

3 back in business on that basis of guaranteed

4 savings to low-income customers.

5 ASSEMBLYMAN CUSICK: Okay. I'll

6 follow up with you on this issue offline.

7 Thank you.

8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman

9 Englebright for a second.

10 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

11 We've been discussing siting matters

12 in varying ways, so I just wanted to follow

13 up with a couple of siting-related questions.

14 As you know, Secretary Ryan Zinke has

15 recently suggested, actually put forward a

16 new policy for offshore oil and gas

17 exploration on all the coasts of our nation

18 except for Florida. This we had a hearing on

19 last Wednesday, and we heard from various

20 testifiers regarding the impact that this

21 would have on our plans for offshore wind.

22 It was made perfectly clear to us from the

23 testimony that there was a direct conflict

24 between these two offshore uses and that the

375

1 negative impact on our need to be able to

2 rely upon offshore wind as a source of

3 renewables could be compromised.

4 Have your offices weighed in on this

5 at all? And are you planning --

6 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I'd like to

7 defer on this one to my sister agency

8 NYSERDA, which is in the lead on most aspects

9 of offshore wind, and in particular is most

10 engaged with the federal agencies that are

11 central to this, the Bureau of Ocean Energy

12 Management being the principal one, which is,

13 as you point out -- which is part of the

14 Department of Interior, which is where

15 Secretary Zinke resides. But it's certainly

16 a problematic announcement.

17 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: He's at the

18 Department of Interior, actually.

19 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Yes.

20 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: I believe

21 that NYSERDA has, in conjunction with DEC,

22 submitted their opinion. But it would seem

23 to me be appropriate for your agency to

24 consider weighing in in a rather forceful

376

1 way, given that your goals and worthy

2 long-term aspirations to carry out the

3 Governor's very thoughtful proposals

4 regarding renewables could be terribly

5 compromised.

6 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: So with no

7 disrespect to the eloquence of DEC and

8 NYSERDA, we'll take that on.

9 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: I appreciate

10 it. Thank you.

11 My second question relating to siting.

12 Senator O'Mara I think made a very thoughtful

13 observation that I think it was a 23-acre

14 site should have had some renewable energy

15 built into it, and that he observed that

16 there was none and was dismayed at that.

17 I would like to weigh in with a

18 request that springboards from the same kind

19 of feeling that I identify with my colleague

20 from the Senate. We have a situation on

21 Long Island now where there is a solar

22 proposal going into the Pine Barrens, to

23 knock down parts of the oldest forest in the

24 state to put up something between 60 and

377

1 100 acres of ground-mounted solar.

2 And the supervisor of the Town of

3 Brookhaven has offered to use already scarred

4 land at the landfill of the town, and the

5 missing piece here would really, it seems to

6 me, be the state. We have a state interest

7 clearly in the Pine Barrens region, and here

8 we have Supervisor Romaine offering part of

9 the landfill as an alternate site. It would

10 be very useful if the State of New York would

11 support the supervisor and offer some state

12 siting as an alternative to knocking down

13 primitive forest.

14 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Understood.

15 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: So I look

16 around and I see the 800-acre campus at the

17 State University of New York at Stony Brook

18 with zero solar or wind. I see the State

19 Office Building in Hauppauge with zero solar

20 or wind. I see all of the DOT highway yards

21 with zero solar or wind. I see almost a

22 hundred miles of Long Island Railroad-MTA

23 right-of-way with almost zero solar or wind.

24 And I kind of wonder why we're not seeing the

378

1 Public Service Commission helping to advance

2 the possibility of siting on these state

3 properties and at the very least setting an

4 example of and demonstrating the enthusiasm

5 for renewable energy by making use of the

6 state's own resources.

7 Would your agency be willing to assist

8 in inventorying and helping to advance the

9 use of these state properties?

10 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Yes.

11 ASSEMBLYMAN ENGLEBRIGHT: Thank you.

12 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: Senator O'Mara.

13 SENATOR O'MARA: To change the subject

14 a little bit, on the issue of storage,

15 through your programs has the state or has

16 the Public Service Commission been investing

17 in storage projects?

18 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: The Public

19 Service Commission has encouraged a fair

20 amount of solar activity to date. It comes

21 mostly in two forms. There's a set of work

22 that's going on at NYSERDA in order to

23 advance storage and its deployability. And,

24 you know, some of it's really groundbreaking

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1 and important work -- for instance, dealing

2 with safety concerns that the FDNY has about

3 solar in or near buildings.

4 And the other main set of activities

5 to date has been utilities coming forward

6 with proposals, innovative proposals, to

7 deploy solar as a --

8 SENATOR O'MARA: Solar?

9 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Excuse me,

10 storage. I beg your pardon.

11 SENATOR O'MARA: Storage, okay.

12 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: -- as a way of

13 proving that it can work as it should on

14 paper in terms of the energy functionality

15 and the reinforcement of grid systems.

16 And as the Governor announced in his

17 State of the State when he put forward a goal

18 of 1,500 megawatts of storage in the state by

19 2025, we are committed to a process to arrive

20 by the end of the year with an order to

21 figure out the mechanics of how that will

22 happen. And we're doing that jointly --

23 SENATOR O'MARA: And that will be

24 funded by the Clean Energy Fund?

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1 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Sorry?

2 SENATOR O'MARA: Will that be funded

3 by the Clean Energy Fund?

4 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Well, maybe.

5 The -- there's -- our anticipation is that a

6 lot of it will not require what we call

7 missing money. That if we do it right, in

8 the right place, with the right rules, it

9 will be the cost-effective solution and will

10 be investable without Clean Energy Fund

11 monies.

12 So that's path one. And we're going

13 to work that path as hard as possible.

14 SENATOR O'MARA: Will those types of

15 projects -- I mean, they're ultimately going

16 to be paid by the ratepayers in some

17 fashion --

18 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Sure. But if

19 they substitute for copper or substations or

20 some other utility investment that's required

21 for reliability and service, it's exactly the

22 kind of investment that you ought to be

23 demanding that we ensure that the utilities

24 make. If it's a smarter investment, we ought

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1 to go make them do it.

2 SENATOR O'MARA: Yes. And the

3 renewable system won't work without that.

4 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: That's right.

5 It's essential for the renewable system, it's

6 essential for the resiliency challenges that

7 I'm afraid we're going to face, and it's

8 essential for making affordable the grid

9 modernization that we have. Because we've

10 got an aging infrastructure that needs to be

11 updated, and doing it the same old way is a

12 daunting, daunting bill.

13 SENATOR O'MARA: Who is doing the

14 reviewing of projects, proposals for

15 feasibility, effectiveness, reliability,

16 meeting the needs of the consumers, and

17 making determinations of where you're going

18 to invest the Clean Energy Fund? Are these

19 decisions and reviews all being done in-house

20 by the Public Service Commission? Or are you

21 relying upon outside consultants for some of

22 this work?

23 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: The Clean Energy

24 Fund looks in the first place to NYSERDA to

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1 develop its programs to those very standards

2 of feasibility and cost-effectiveness.

3 The Public Service Commission reviews

4 the strategies and reviews the programs for

5 compliance with exactly those points.

6 NYSERDA and also the Department of Public

7 Service have an active stakeholder

8 market-facing set of work that -- so would

9 this make sense, would you buy this, would

10 you do this? For instance, you know, if you

11 want to do something in a building, you

12 should talk to the real estate industry.

13 That kind of work.

14 We use consultants from time to time

15 in the spirit of getting work done,

16 generating analysis that confirms this

17 cost-effective or that technical feasibility.

18 But not -- not in a decision-making mode.

19 SENATOR O'MARA: Okay. So the

20 decision-making would be made based upon the

21 commission's review or the --

22 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: Initiated by

23 NYSERDA, yes.

24 SENATOR O'MARA: -- of -- of what was

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1 produced by consultants?

2 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: And informed by

3 stakeholder process.

4 SENATOR O'MARA: Is there available

5 information on the consultants being

6 utilized, how much they're being paid and the

7 availability of their contracts?

8 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: We can get you

9 that. Or NYSERDA can get you that.

10 SENATOR O'MARA: We would like that.

11 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I understand

12 that.

13 SENATOR O'MARA: I've got a couple

14 more questions. You want to skip to somebody

15 else?

16 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG: No, why don't you

17 finish up, Senator.

18 SENATOR O'MARA: And it was raised a

19 little bit earlier about natural gas

20 infrastructure and the massive amount of

21 infrastructure buildout that the Public

22 Service Commission has been involved in, I

23 believe was what it was called.

24 And I would say it's just the opposite

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1 of that, that the commission has worked in

2 fact together with the Department of

3 Environmental Conservation to block every

4 pipeline project that's been proposed

5 recently, effectively cutting off

6 free-flowing, cheaper natural gas both to

7 New York State and to the entire New England

8 region.

9 That's concerning to me because while

10 we talk about the Clean Energy Standard and

11 getting to 50 percent of our electricity

12 demands by 2050, our heating supply is

13 95 percent or more fossil-fuel-based. How

14 are we going to meet those needs going

15 forward without infrastructure improvements

16 for natural gas?

17 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: I don't want to

18 sound like I'm ducking, but the commission

19 has a very limited role in permitting of

20 natural gas transmission, the larger-scale

21 work.

22 That is the Department of

23 Environmental Conservation. I'll observe

24 that it's my observation that they do a

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1 serious and careful job of considering

2 economic, community, environmental impacts

3 when they consider those options.

4 We have infrastructure roles with

5 respect to distribution, kind of the

6 smaller-scale stuff that kind of reaches to a

7 home. And we too have a serious and careful

8 process that evaluates those on the merits.

9 In general, we recognize as you do

10 that natural gas has a strong economic

11 argument for its existence; that's why it's

12 popular. But we also know that there are

13 geothermal solutions that can provide heating

14 and cooling in a more renewable manner. And

15 I don't think you've heard me use the

16 expression "non-wires alternatives," but in

17 electricity that's the expression we use to

18 say instead of laying copper and building a

19 substation, can you do something else with

20 storage or demand management and the like.

21 Some of our utilities are now

22 approaching us with non-pipe solutions,

23 whereby via energy efficiency or storage or

24 peak shifting, they're able to achieve the

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1 supply that they need without necessarily

2 counting on additional transmission.

3 So it's going to take all of the

4 above, and obviously we're paying a lot of

5 attention to it.

6 SENATOR O'MARA: What is the Clean

7 Energy Standard's goals for reducing fossil

8 fuels in our heating, for our heating supply?

9 PSC CHAIRMAN RHODES: It's only very

10 indirect. The Clean Energy Standard is

11 really about electricity. And there's some

12 but not very much electric heat that goes on.

13 If you're talking about cooling,

14 obviously air-conditioning is a significant

15 electric load, and the Clean Energy Standard

16 is about that. But the bulk of heating comes

17 from, if you'll pardon the expression,

18 non-electric fuels. So natural gas and

19&n