Public Hearing - February 10, 2021

                                                                       1

 1  BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE
    AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES
 2  -----------------------------------------------------

 3          JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING

 4             In the Matter of the
          2021-2022 EXECUTIVE BUDGET ON
 5              PUBLIC PROTECTION 
    
 6  -----------------------------------------------------

 7                              Virtual Hearing 
                                Held via Zoom 
 8  
                                February 10, 2021
 9                              9:40 a.m.
    
10  
    PRESIDING:
11
              Senator Liz Krueger 
12            Chair, Senate Finance Committee
    
13            Assemblywoman Helene E. Weinstein
              Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee
14  
    PRESENT:
15
              Senator Thomas F. O'Mara 
16            Senate Finance Committee (RM)
    
17            Assemblyman Edward P. Ra 
              Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)
18  
              Senator Brad Hoylman
19            Chair, Senate Committee on Judiciary
    
20            Assemblyman Charles D. Lavine 
              Chair, Assembly Committee on Judiciary
21  
              Senator Jamaal T. Bailey
22            Chair, Senate Committee on Codes
    
23            Assemblyman Jeffrey Dinowitz
              Chair, Assembly Committee on Codes
24  
    

                                                                   2

 1  2021-2022 Executive Budget
    Public Protection
 2  2-10-21
    
 3  PRESENT:  (Continued)
    
 4            Senator Julia Salazar
              Chair, Senate Committee on Crime Victims, 
 5             Crime and Correction
    
 6            Assemblyman David I. Weprin 
              Chair, Assembly Committee on Correction
 7  
              Senator John E. Brooks
 8            Chair, Senate Committee on Veterans, 
               Homeland Security and Military Affairs
 9  
              Assemblyman Kenneth P. Zebrowski
10            Chair, Assembly Committee on Governmental 
                Operations
11  
              Senator Diane J. Savino
12            Chair, Senate Committee on Internet and
                Technology
13  
              Senator Gustavo Rivera 
14  
              Assemblyman Harry B. Bronson
15  
              Senator Pete Harckham
16  
              Assemblyman Edward C. Braunstein
17  
              Assemblywoman Deborah J. Glick
18  
              Senator Andrew Gounardes
19  
              Assemblyman Erik M. Dilan
20  
              Assemblywoman Jenifer Rajkumar
21  
              Assemblyman Phil Steck
22  
              Assemblywoman Dr. Anna R. Kelles
23  
              Senator James Tedisco
24  
    

                                                                   3

 1  2021-2022 Executive Budget
    Public Protection
 2  2-10-21 
    
 3  PRESENT:  (Continued)
    
 4            Senator Anna M. Kaplan
    
 5            Assemblywoman Karen McMahon 
    
 6            Assemblyman Demond Meeks
    
 7            Assemblyman Ron Kim 
    
 8            Assemblyman Philip A. Palmesano
    
 9            Senator Todd Kaminsky
    
10            Assemblyman Andy Goodell
    
11            Assemblywoman Catalina Cruz
    
12            Assemblyman Mike Lawler
    
13            Senator Kevin Thomas
    
14            Assemblyman Michael Tannousis
    
15            Assemblywoman Patricia Fahy
    
16            Assemblyman Harvey Epstein 
    
17            Assemblyman Anthony H. Palumbo
    
18            Senator George M. Borrello
    
19            Assemblywoman Rebecca Seawright
    
20            Assemblywoman Latoya Joyner
    
21            Senator John C. Liu
    
22            Assemblyman Michael Reilly
    
23            Assemblywoman Alicia Hyndman
    
24            Assemblywoman Carmen N. De La Rosa
    

                                                                   4

 1  2021-2022 Executive Budget
    Public Protection
 2  2-10-21 
    
 3  PRESENT:  (Continued)
    
 4            Senator Jeremy A. Cooney
    
 5            Assemblywoman Marjorie Byrnes
    
 6            Assemblyman Angelo J. Morinello
    
 7            Assemblywoman Latrice Walker
    
 8            Assemblyman Daniel J. O'Donnell
    
 9            Assemblyman Chris Burdick
    
10            Assemblyman Mark Walczyk
    
11            Assemblyman Jake Ashby
    
12            Senator Elijah Reichlin-Melnick
    
13            Assemblyman Kevin M. Byrne
    
14            Assemblywoman Linda B. Rosenthal
    
15            Assemblyman Jeffrion L. Aubry
    
16  
    
17  

18

19

20

21

22

23

24


                                                                   5

 1  2021-2022 Executive Budget
    Public Protection
 2  2-10-21 
    
 3                      LIST OF SPEAKERS
    
 4                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  Honorable Lawrence K. Marks
    Chief Administrative Judge 
 6  NYS Office of Court
     Administration                           15        26                    
 7  
    Robert H. Tembeckjian
 8  Administrator and Counsel
    New York State Commission on 
 9   Judicial Conduct                        133       140
    
10  William J. Leahy
    Director
11  New York State Office of
     Indigent Legal Services                 159       165             
12  
    Patrick A. Murphy 
13  Commissioner 
    NYS Division of Homeland Security
14   and Emergency Services                  180       185
    
15  Angelo Riddick
    Interim CIO and Director
16  NYS Office of Information
     Technology Services                     229       236
17  
    Michael C. Green
18  Executive Deputy Commissioner
    NYS Division of Criminal 
19   Justice Services                        267       274       
    
20  Anthony J. Annucci 
    Acting Commissioner 
21  NYS Department of Corrections
     and Community Supervision               355       362
22  
    Kevin P. Bruen 
23  Acting Superintendent
    NYS Division of State Police             455       460
24  
    

                                                                   6

 1  2021-2022 Executive Budget
    Public Protection
 2  2-10-21
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued 
    
 4                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  Kristin Brown
    President and CEO
 6  Empire Justice Center
         -and-
 7  Laura Abel
    Senior Policy Counsel
 8  Lawyers Alliance for New York
         -and-
 9  Molly Clifford 
    Interim Executive Director
10  NY Legal Services Coalition            504             
    
11  Dr. David Sandman
    President and CEO
12  New York State Health Foundation
         -and-
13  Coco Culhane
    Executive Director
14  Veteran Advocacy Project
         -and-
15  Shane Correia
    Deputy Director of Strategic 
16   Partnerships
    Center for Court Innovation             
17       -and-
    William C. Silverman
18  Chair
    Fund for Modern Courts
19       -and-
    Joan Gerhardt
20  Director of Public Policy
     and Advocacy
21  New York State Coalition
     Against Domestic Violence             513       530
22  
    
23

24


                                                                   7

 1  2021-2022 Executive Budget
    Public Protection
 2  2-10-21
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued 
    
 4                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  Manuel M. Vilar
    Vice President & CAO
 6  Police Benevolent Association 
     of New York State
 7       -and-
    Timothy M. Dymond
 8  President
    New York State Police Investigators 
 9   Association
         -and-
10  Richard Wells
    President
11  Police Conference of New York State
         -and-
12  Michael O'Meara
    President
13  New York State Association of 
     Police Benevolent Associations
14       -and-
    Thomas H. Mungeer
15  President
    New York State Troopers Police 
16   Benevolent Association                  532       549
    
17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24


                                                                   8

 1  2021-2022 Executive Budget
    Public Protection
 2  2-10-21
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued 
    
 4                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  J. Anthony Jordan 
    Washington County District Attorney
 6       -on behalf of-
    District Attorneys Association
 7   of the State of New York              
         -and-
 8  Susan C. Bryant
    Executive Director
 9  NYS Defenders Association               
         -and-
10  Laurette Mulry
    President
11  Chief Defenders Assn. of NY 
         -and-
12  Audrey Sample
    Founder and Group Lead
13  Students Demand Action Rochester
         -and-
14  Regina Ritcey
    Executive Director
15  NYS Dispute Resolution Assn.            568       586
    
16  Elizabeth Gaynes
    CEO and President 
17  The Osborne Association
         -and-
18  Shayna Kessler
    Senior Planner
19  Vera Institute of Justice
         -and-
20  Yonah Zeitz
    Policy Coordinator
21  Katal Center for Equity, 
     Health and Justice
22       -and-
    Barry Graubart
23  Deputy Chapter Leader
    Moms Demand Action for 
24   Gun Sense in America, 
     New York Chapter                       596

                                                                   9

 1  2021-2022 Executive Budget
    Public Protection
 2  2-10-21
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued 
    
 4                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  Sarah Bertozzi
    Managing Attorney and Director
 6  of Immigration Legal Services
    Journey's End Refugee Services
 7       -and-
    Terry Lawson
 8  Executive Director
    UnLocal
 9       -and-
    Elena Sassower
10  Director
    Center for Judicial 
11   Accountability                         611
    
12  
    
13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24


                                                                   10

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Good morning.  

 2           I'm Senator Liz Krueger, chair of the Senate 

 3           Finance Committee.  And I'm joined today by 

 4           many people but most importantly my cochair 

 5           of today's budget hearing from Ways and 

 6           Means, Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein.

 7                  Today is the joint legislative hearing 

 8           for fiscal year 2021-2022 on 

 9           Public Protection, issued within the 

10           Executive Budget.

11                  It's Wednesday, February 10th, around 

12           9:40 in the morning.  Check back at 9:40 

13           tonight -- we'll still be here, I'm going to 

14           tell you, because today will be a very long 

15           hearing because there are so many different 

16           overlapping agencies within the rubric of 

17           public protection.

18                  These hearings are conducted pursuant 

19           to the New York State Constitution and 

20           Legislative Law.

21                  Today the Senate Finance Committee and 

22           Assembly Ways and Means Committee will hear 

23           testimony concerning the Governor's proposed 

24           budget for the Judiciary, the State 


                                                                   11

 1           Commission on Judicial Conduct, the Office of 

 2           Indigent Legal Services, New York State 

 3           Division of Homeland Security & Emergency 

 4           Services, New York State Office of 

 5           Information Technology, New York State 

 6           Division of Criminal Justice Services, the 

 7           State Department of Corrections and Community 

 8           Supervision, and the State Division of State 

 9           Police.

10                  Following each testimony there will be 

11           time for questions from the chairs and 

12           rankers and other legislators.  Following the 

13           eight representatives from state government, 

14           we will move to testimony from the public who 

15           has asked to testify here today.

16                  All testimony is available online and 

17           can be read by each and every legislator and 

18           everyone in the public.

19                  If you asked to testify but you were 

20           turned down because it was too crowded, you 

21           are still welcome to submit testimony even 

22           past today's date.  And for those of you who 

23           are just listening in and want to read along, 

24           you should have access to quite a bit of the 


                                                                   12

 1           testimony online already.

 2                  I'm now going to introduce members of 

 3           the Senate, and Helene will introduce members 

 4           of the Assembly.  Following, we'll have 

 5           introductions by the Senate -- 

 6                  (Zoom interruption.)

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Oh, somebody 

 8           please mute yourself if you're not me talking 

 9           at the moment.

10                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Sorry.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  That's okay.  

12           Thank you.  That's another rule for these 

13           hearings:  Remember to mute yourself if 

14           you're not the one who's supposed to be 

15           actually speaking.

16                  We have so many Senators here today, 

17           but Jamaal Bailey, John Brooks, Julia 

18           Salazar, Brad Hoylman.  I'm just going 

19           through the -- Gustavo Rivera, Pete Harckham, 

20           Diane Savino, Anna Kaplan, John Liu.  

21                  Let's pass it to Tom O'Mara, the 

22           ranker, to name his members who are here 

23           today.

24                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Good morning.  Thank 


                                                                   13

 1           you, Senator Krueger.

 2                  We are joined on the Minority side by 

 3           Senator Jim Tedisco.  I'm sure others will be 

 4           joining as we progress throughout the day.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 6                  And now I'll pass it over to 

 7           Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein to introduce 

 8           Assemblymembers.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

10                  We are joined by Assemblyman Lavine, 

11           chair of our Judiciary Committee; Assemblyman 

12           Dinowitz, chair of our Codes Committee; 

13           Assemblyman Zebrowski, chair of our Gov Ops 

14           Committee.  And members of those committees:  

15           Members Braunstein, Bronson, Dilan, Epstein, 

16           Hyndman, Joyner, Kelles, McMahon, Meeks, 

17           Rajkumar, Seawright, Steck.  And we probably 

18           will have additional members joining us as 

19           the hearing continues.

20                  Let me turn it over -- let me just 

21           have Assemblyman Ra, the ranker on Ways and 

22           Means, introduce his colleagues.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, Chair.

24                  We are joined this morning by 


                                                                   14

 1           Assemblyman Mike Lawler, the ranker on our 

 2           Gov Ops Committee; Assemblyman Morinello, 

 3           who's the ranker on our Codes Committee; 

 4           Assemblywoman Byrnes; Assemblyman Walczyk; 

 5           Assemblymen Goodell, Reilly and Tannousis.

 6                  SENATOR O'MARA:  If I may add, Senator 

 7           Krueger, I understand that we're also trying 

 8           to be joined by Senator Palumbo.  I think 

 9           he's in the waiting room awaiting admission.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  So one of 

11           the moderators please let the Senator in.  

12           They'll figure that out.  Thank you, Tom.

13                  All right, continuing along, I'm just 

14           going to list out the testifiers for today, 

15           and then we'll just call up each one.  Just 

16           know when they start to testify, right before 

17           they start, we'll announce who the chairs of 

18           the relevant committees are for that specific 

19           testifier, because the rules of the road 

20           changed slightly.  

21                  Our guests have 10 minutes to do their 

22           presentations.  Chairs have 10 minutes, if 

23           it's appropriate for the committee, to ask 

24           and get answered their questions.  Rankers or 


                                                                   15

 1           chairs of other committees related to this 

 2           hearing get five minutes to ask and get 

 3           answered their questions.  Other members get 

 4           three minutes to ask and answer.

 5                  Only the relevant chair for that 

 6           committee gets a second-round possibility, if 

 7           they need it, at the end.

 8                  I'll go over this a few times today.  

 9           But so, for example, our first testifier will 

10           be Lawrence Marks, chief administrative judge 

11           of the Office of Court Administration, and 

12           the relevant committee is Judiciary, so 

13           Chairs Hoylman and Lavine will go first and 

14           have the first 10-minute opportunities.  And 

15           then their rankers have five minutes.  The 

16           flow -- you'll figure out the flow as the day 

17           goes along, and I'll continue to explain.

18                  So again, we have Chief Administrative 

19           Judge Lawrence Marks.  And I'm going to 

20           introduce the others as we go along.

21                  Good morning, Judge.

22                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Good 

23           morning, Senator Krueger.  And good morning, 

24           everyone.  It's good to see everyone.  And 


                                                                   16

 1           thank you.  

 2                  I'm Lawrence Marks.  I'm chief 

 3           administrative judge of the Unified Court 

 4           System, and I'm pleased to appear this 

 5           morning to discuss the Judiciary's budget.  

 6                  So for the upcoming fiscal year, which 

 7           as you know is fiscal year 2022, we are 

 8           asking for the same level of appropriations 

 9           we received for the current fiscal year.  

10           However, our spending plan has changed from 

11           the one presented to you a year ago.

12                  For fiscal year 2021, spending under 

13           the Judiciary has been reduced by 

14           $291 million.  That's a 10 percent reduction.  

15           In the fiscal year 2022, the Judiciary State 

16           Operating Spending Plan assumes continuation 

17           of this reduced spending level of 2.25 

18           billion.

19                  And I will address this shortly, but 

20           first I'd like to put our budget submission 

21           in its proper context by briefly summarizing 

22           for you the Judiciary's experience over the 

23           past year.  And this experience, of course, 

24           could not have been anticipated in February 


                                                                   17

 1           2020 when I last appeared before you to 

 2           report on our budget.

 3                  Since that time, New York's Judiciary, 

 4           along with the rest of the state, has faced 

 5           multiple challenges as a result of the 

 6           COVID-19 pandemic.  These challenges include 

 7           the unprecedented task of keeping the courts 

 8           operating consistent with a rapidly evolving 

 9           understanding of public health needs.

10                  Back in March as the extent of the 

11           pandemic first became apparent and as the 

12           state began instituting aggressive measures 

13           to protect the community, the Judiciary took 

14           the first of several critical steps affecting 

15           court operations.  While determined to keep 

16           the courts open for business, we initially 

17           limited our operations to essential and 

18           emergency applications only.  Over the next 

19           few weeks, however, we put into effect a 

20           program of virtual court operations to permit 

21           the widest possible delivery of justice 

22           services to litigants and lawyers.  This made 

23           it possible and continues to make it possible 

24           for judges and staff to safely conference 


                                                                   18

 1           cases in all of our courts across the state, 

 2           to the point where more than 20,000 cases a 

 3           week are now conferenced to produce 

 4           settlements, referrals to virtual alternative 

 5           dispute resolution, and decisions on motions.

 6                  Virtual court operations now also make 

 7           it possible to conduct hundreds of 

 8           evidentiary hearings and bench trials each 

 9           week.

10                  As we took these steps to institute 

11           and expand a virtual court system, we were 

12           also planning for the resumption of in-person 

13           proceedings.  Closely adhering to applicable 

14           public health protocols, we instituted a 

15           range of safety measures to protect the 

16           health of all who enter and work in the 

17           courthouses.  This permitted us to resume 

18           certain in-person proceedings during the 

19           summer and fall months, including, among 

20           other things, impaneling of grand juries in 

21           all of the state's counties, and some civil 

22           and criminal jury trials.  

23                  With the resurgence of the virus since 

24           the holiday season, we have had to curtail 


                                                                   19

 1           many of these in-person proceedings, but we 

 2           are ready to resume them in the days ahead 

 3           once public health authorities make clear 

 4           that it is safe to do so.

 5                  So now, just going back to the budget, 

 6           the projected multi-billion-dollar deficit 

 7           the state faces as a result of the pandemic 

 8           has had a major impact on the Judiciary.  

 9           Last spring the Governor, in his revised 

10           financial plan, urged the Judiciary to reduce 

11           its current fiscal year spending by 

12           10 percent.  Notably, that amount was then 

13           deducted from the financial plan.  As a 

14           result, and as a responsible partner in state 

15           government, we went ahead and reduced our 

16           spending by that amount.

17                  A spending reduction of this 

18           magnitude -- a reduction significantly larger 

19           than the reduction we absorbed in 2011 when 

20           the state faced its last budget crisis -- is 

21           an enormously challenging task for the court 

22           system.  Our annual budget is overwhelmingly 

23           made up of personnel costs, with roughly 90 

24           percent of the budget going to salaries of 


                                                                   20

 1           judges and nonjudicial staff, along with 

 2           health, pension and other fringe benefit 

 3           costs.  

 4                  So it follows that any effort to 

 5           substantially reduce our spending must entail 

 6           reductions in personnel costs.  

 7                  In making these reductions, there were 

 8           no easy choices.  Like much of state 

 9           government, the Judiciary has been living for 

10           years with very-limited-growth budgets.  

11           Although in many respects we are faced with a 

12           need to provide more services than a decade 

13           ago, our annual budgetary allocation has only 

14           marginally increased since then.  This has 

15           left us with little budgetary flexibility 

16           when there is a need, as now, to economize.

17                  Also complicating our effort has been 

18           the fact that coping with the pandemic and 

19           keeping the courts open as much as possible 

20           for virtual and in in-person proceedings has 

21           necessitated substantial expenditures for 

22           technology, enhanced court cleaning, PPE and 

23           courthouse retrofits.  In addition, overtime 

24           costs have increased for our technology and 


                                                                   21

 1           public safety staff.

 2                  Early on we took a necessary first 

 3           step:  We instituted a strict hiring freeze.  

 4           And so far this fiscal year more than 

 5           730 positions that were lost to attrition 

 6           remain vacant.  While this has cost no one 

 7           their job, its impact on court operations 

 8           cannot be overstated.  Our nonjudicial 

 9           workforce is the lifeblood of the court 

10           system.  With no end in sight for the hiring 

11           freeze, the Judiciary staffing level now 

12           stands below 15,000 employees across the 

13           state.  This is 2,200 fewer employees than we 

14           had 12 years ago, a 13 percent reduction in 

15           our workforce.  

16                  If the hiring freeze must remain in 

17           effect much longer, we can expect a 

18           diminished staffing level not seen by the 

19           courts in several decades.

20                  While the Chief Judge's Excellence 

21           Initiative in recent years has helped the 

22           courts become more efficient than ever 

23           before, our short staffing will make it 

24           increasingly difficult to conduct the 


                                                                   22

 1           Judiciary's work in effective and timely 

 2           manner.  

 3                  Particularly post-pandemic, when 

 4           things return to a more normal course of 

 5           business, this can have particular 

 6           consequences for operations in courts that 

 7           primarily serve economically disadvantaged 

 8           litigants, including Family Court and Housing 

 9           Court.

10                  Among the other hard choices we made 

11           this year was the decision not to certificate 

12           most of the Supreme Court justices who, 

13           having reached 70 and older, were seeking to 

14           remain in judicial service.  Obviously this 

15           was a very difficult decision, and toward the 

16           end of 2020 some of you asked that we 

17           reconsider it.  In fact, some of the justices 

18           impacted by this decision have sued to have 

19           the decision overturned in the courts.

20                  As difficult as this decision may have 

21           been, we had no choice.  By not certificating 

22           these justices, the Judiciary will save 

23           $55 million over two calendar years.  The 

24           grim alternative for us, in order to find 


                                                                   23

 1           comparable savings elsewhere in the budget, 

 2           would be to lay off 325 or more nonjudicial 

 3           employees -- and again, that's in addition to 

 4           the 730-plus positions left open so far 

 5           through the hiring freeze.  This was simply 

 6           unacceptable, both operationally and morally.

 7                  First, as we learned from our 

 8           experience in 2011 when the need for fiscal 

 9           austerity required layoffs of several hundred 

10           employees, such a reduction can have a 

11           crippling effect on court operations.  And as 

12           I have noted, this effect will be felt most 

13           in courts that primarily serve economically 

14           disadvantaged litigants, who rely heavily on 

15           advice and direction from court staff to be 

16           able to navigate the court process.

17                  Second, because of the way civil 

18           service rules apply to layoffs, requiring 

19           layoffs now would fall most heavily on 

20           younger court employees not eligible to 

21           collect their pensions and strand them 

22           without income in what is a very difficult 

23           job market.

24                  The remaining austerity steps we've 


                                                                   24

 1           taken include limitations on nonpersonal 

 2           service spending.  And I won't go through 

 3           that; they're listed in my written testimony 

 4           that you have.

 5                  So as we approach the start of the 

 6           2022 fiscal year, some have suggested that we 

 7           should make more optimistic assumptions that 

 8           before long the federal government will 

 9           provide financial assistance to New York and 

10           other states, and that assistance will cut 

11           New York's large deficit and enable agencies 

12           of government, including the Judiciary, to 

13           ease up on their austerity measures.  We 

14           certainly hope they are right, but we cannot 

15           base our plan on their hopes.

16                  For this reason, we've submitted a 

17           flat spending plan that maintains the 

18           reductions implemented this fiscal year.  

19           However, our budget seeks the same level of 

20           appropriations that was approved for the 

21           current fiscal year.  So if the state's 

22           fiscal situation does improve in the days 

23           ahead and the Judiciary is able to share in 

24           the benefits of that, we will have the 


                                                                   25

 1           spending authority to meet all or at least 

 2           more of our needs.  But if that situation 

 3           does not improve, we are prepared to continue 

 4           operating under the spending reductions we 

 5           have imposed during the current year.

 6                  Our overarching goals will be to keep 

 7           all courts open and to avoid layoffs of 

 8           nonjudicial personnel.  The present hiring 

 9           freeze will remain in place, as will the 

10           reductions in various Judiciary programs, but 

11           we will fulfill our constitutional mandate 

12           notwithstanding these cutbacks.

13                  And so just if I could conclude, I 

14           want to emphasize that now more than ever, as 

15           the state works to manage an enormous fiscal 

16           deficit while fighting the worst public 

17           health threat in our lifetime, the courts 

18           remain dedicated to ensuring the fair and 

19           prompt administration of justice.  

20                  The budget we have submitted will, if 

21           approved, enable us to continue our mission 

22           regardless of what's in store for us in the 

23           days ahead.  If it turns out that the state's 

24           present fiscal crisis requires that we 


                                                                   26

 1           continue to operate within a reduced spending 

 2           level, we can do so under this budget.  If 

 3           instead the state's fiscal condition 

 4           improves, this budget will permit us to 

 5           resume more normal operations.  

 6                  Thank you for your attention, and of 

 7           course I'm happy to answer any questions.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 9           much.

10                  The first to question will be chair of 

11           the Judiciary Committee in the Senate, 

12           Senator Brad Hoylman.

13                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you, Chair 

14           Krueger and Chair Weinstein.  Thank you for 

15           all of your work on these hearings.  

16                  And it's good to see you, Judge.  I 

17           appreciate the difficult circumstances under 

18           which you and your colleagues are operating.

19                  And let me just say from the outset 

20           I'm concerned about the fact that a separate, 

21           coequal branch of government is imposing 

22           austerity measures -- I'm not talking about 

23           the Legislature, I'm talking about the 

24           Judiciary -- because I don't think the 


                                                                   27

 1           austerity and the meting out of justice go 

 2           hand in hand.  But that's my editorializing 

 3           as I open this hearing.  

 4                  I wanted to ask you specifically about 

 5           what public health guidance you're following 

 6           in terms of opening in-person proceedings, as 

 7           you mentioned in your testimony.  Frankly, 

 8           I'm concerned about the health and well-being 

 9           of many of our judges.  And correct me if I'm 

10           wrong, most of those judges are not getting 

11           vaccinated unless they're eligible otherwise.

12                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  That's 

13           correct.  Judges are not among the categories 

14           of groups eligible for testing under the 

15           phases that have been implemented so far.  

16           And we've strongly urged the executive branch 

17           to include judges and render them eligible 

18           for the vaccine, because that's critically 

19           important to eventually resuming to more 

20           normal operations.

21                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you.  And as 

22           you mentioned, your budget request keeps the 

23           All Funds operations appropriations flat at 

24           2.4, 2.5 billion.  And as you note, last year 


                                                                   28

 1           you cut your budget by 300 million.  If we 

 2           approve your budget as requested this year, 

 3           so you're going to cut your budget again?  Is 

 4           that what I'm hearing?

 5                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  No, we will 

 6           maintain the 10 percent reduction that we 

 7           experienced this fiscal year.

 8                  So it's -- what we're seeking -- I 

 9           mean, obviously, like everything, this is a 

10           little more complicated this year.  We're 

11           seeking the same amount of cash as we have in 

12           the current fiscal year, factoring in the 

13           10 percent reduction this fiscal year, but 

14           our appropriation level is significantly 

15           higher.  It's what was approved by the 

16           Legislature last year.  It represents a 

17           2 percent increase over the year before that.  

18                  And the reason why we want to maintain 

19           that higher appropriation level is that if 

20           there is federal aid forthcoming and New York 

21           receives federal aid and the Judiciary 

22           benefits from that, we will be able to 

23           receive and spend more money up to that 

24           higher appropriation level.


                                                                   29

 1                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  So what does that 

 2           mean for civil legal services?  You know, 

 3           obviously a very important function to make 

 4           certain that the most underserved have legal 

 5           representation, particularly during these 

 6           difficult times.

 7                  Can you commit, Judge, to keeping that 

 8           100 million in funding for civil legal 

 9           services intact and not cutting it moving 

10           forward?  

11                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, what 

12           we did, as part of the 10 percent 

13           reduction -- the 100 million is in two parts.  

14           Fifteen million of that is a pass-through in 

15           our budget that we suballocate to the IOLA 

16           fund, which uses that money in awarding 

17           grants to legal services organizations.

18                  That was untouched, and that 

19           15 million has been passed through this 

20           fiscal year to IOLA.  And that will -- if our 

21           budget is approved, that will continue in the 

22           upcoming fiscal year.

23                  What we did reduce by 10 percent was 

24           the remaining $85 million, which is money 


                                                                   30

 1           that we award in grants to approximately 

 2           80 civil legal services organizations.  We 

 3           did, in this 10 percent cut, reduce that 

 4           85 million by 10 percent, by $8.5 million.  

 5                  And because we're seeking a flat 

 6           budget, we've put in for a flat budget for 

 7           the upcoming fiscal year, that lower level of 

 8           money in grants for civil legal services 

 9           organizations would continue, it would be 

10           $8.5 million left in the upcoming fiscal 

11           year, unless we get more money in our budget.

12                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Well, Judge, I don't 

13           have to tell you, as a representative -- and 

14           I bet everyone who's on this Zoom would 

15           agree -- we want you to spend the 

16           100 million.  We want our constituents 

17           represented in court.  I would urge you to 

18           spend that, Judge.  It's just so crucial, 

19           particularly given the complicated legal 

20           factors now at play for so many folks who are 

21           seeking legal representation.

22                  How about the -- OCA's contract with 

23           Housing Court Answers?  Are we looking at a 

24           23 percent reduction there, as I understand 


                                                                   31

 1           it?

 2                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  That's news 

 3           to me.  I can check that.  But Housing Court 

 4           Answers is one of the 80 or so organizations 

 5           that receive grants out of the 85 million.  

 6           They would have -- I'll have to check this, 

 7           and I will get back to you on this.  But they 

 8           should not have been reduced more than the 10 

 9           percent reduction that was imposed across the 

10           board.  

11                  But I will check that.

12                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  And -- thank you.  

13           We'll follow up with you on that.

14                  And obviously an issue that rankles a 

15           lot of the members of the judiciary is the -- 

16           is one you touched on, the certification of 

17           judges.  Because, you know, we believe -- I 

18           think, again, many of my colleagues agree -- 

19           that this is penny-wise, pound-foolish to 

20           decertify these 46 judges that had reached 

21           the constitutional retirement age of 70.

22                  Just -- I wanted to point out 

23           something, Judge.  Article 6 of the 

24           Constitution and the statute governing the 


                                                                   32

 1           certification process requires that the 

 2           services of judges be "necessary to expedite 

 3           the business of the court" and that "he or 

 4           she is mentally and physically able and 

 5           competent to perform the duties of the 

 6           office."

 7                  Is it your contention that these 

 8           46 judges have failed to satisfy this 

 9           two-prong test?

10                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  That is our 

11           position.  

12                  And that's based on the much broader 

13           interpretation of the language in the 

14           Constitution that courts have applied in how 

15           they've interpreted that language over the 

16           years, including Court of Appeals decisions, 

17           including a relatively recent Court of 

18           Appeals decision in 2017.  That that language 

19           has always been interpreted far more broadly 

20           than how it literally reads, and with very 

21           good reason.  And I could go into that if we 

22           have the time.  

23                  But so -- and as I mentioned in my 

24           opening remarks, this issue is now in 


                                                                   33

 1           litigation.  In fact, the case was argued 

 2           before the appellate division just yesterday 

 3           morning.  So I don't want to get into too 

 4           much of a discussion about it because I'm a 

 5           named defendant in that lawsuit.

 6                  But we strongly believe that there was 

 7           -- that this is entirely legal, it was 

 8           appropriate as a matter of good public policy 

 9           and good fiscal policy.  It was an extremely 

10           difficult decision, don't get me wrong about 

11           that, but that it was entirely legal and we 

12           expect to prevail once the lawsuits are 

13           resolved in the courts.

14                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  If you get 

15           additional funding through federal aid, for 

16           example, will you bring those judges back?

17                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, 

18           that's a good question.  Because there's some 

19           dispute about whether that would be 

20           authorized under the provision in the 

21           Constitution, because those judges are 

22           retired now from the court system.

23                  But to answer your question, because 

24           of the litigation I can't really -- basically 


                                                                   34

 1           you're saying can we settle the case if there 

 2           was money forthcoming.  That's something that 

 3           could be discussed, but I'd rather not do 

 4           that in this venue.

 5                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  And may I ask, 

 6           Judge, how is the refusal to certificate 

 7           these judges going to impact the nonjudicial 

 8           employees that work with and for those 

 9           judges?

10                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  You mean 

11           their personal staff?  

12                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Yes.

13                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  We -- we -- 

14           this is unfortunately not widely understood 

15           and known, but that was about 90 or so 

16           personal appointees of these judges who 

17           weren't certificated.  For those who wanted 

18           to continue employment in the court system, 

19           we have placed all of them with other judges 

20           and a few in other positions in the court 

21           system.

22                  So they've been saved, those who have 

23           asked to continue.  Some retired themselves, 

24           voluntarily, but those who wanted to stay on 


                                                                   35

 1           we've placed with other judges in other 

 2           positions in the court system, fortunately.

 3                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you.  And my 

 4           time is up, Chair.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 6           much, Chair.

 7                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you, Judge.

 8                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.  

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Assemblywoman.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Before we go to 

11           our chair of Judiciary, we've been joined by 

12           Corrections Chair Assemblyman Weprin, 

13           Assemblywoman De La Rosa, Assemblywoman 

14           Glick, Assemblywoman Cruz, Assemblywoman Fahy 

15           and Assemblyman Burdick.  

16                  So now we go to Charles Lavine, the 

17           chair of our Judiciary Committee, for 

18           10 minutes.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And just a 

20           reminder, as Chuck is starting to talk -- 

21           sorry -- if you want to be on the questioning 

22           list, you have to raise your hand, which is 

23           at the bottom of your screen in the center.  

24           Thank you.  


                                                                   36

 1                  Sorry, Assemblymember Lavine.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  I accept your 

 3           apology, and thank you, Chair Krueger.  And 

 4           thank you, Chair Weinstein.

 5                  It certainly seems to me that at a 

 6           time of savage and unprecedented attacks on 

 7           our institutions of government, today's 

 8           hearing takes on unprecedented significance.

 9                  In his classic book On Tyranny, 

10           Professor Timothy Snyder teaches us that in 

11           times of great civil crisis our institutions 

12           of government, such as our courts, cannot 

13           protect us, the citizens, unless we protect 

14           them as well.

15                  So with that in mind, good morning, 

16           Your Honor.  It's always a pleasure to see 

17           you.  And please convey my gratitude to our 

18           judges, our administrative staff, and 

19           everyone who works in our courthouses.  

20           Including court officers, court reporters, 

21           and those who have the challenging task of 

22           cleansing and sanitizing our courthouses as 

23           well.

24                  So on this subject of the 


                                                                   37

 1           non-certificated judges, we anticipate -- 

 2           meaning the courts anticipate -- that there 

 3           will be approximately 55 million in 

 4           savings -- over the course of this year and 

 5           next year?

 6                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, it's 

 7           over the course of this calendar year and the 

 8           next calendar year, because the terms of 

 9           certificated judges are not coterminous with 

10           our fiscal year.

11                  So the savings would be in the last 

12           three months of this fiscal year, the full 12 

13           months of the upcoming fiscal year, and nine 

14           months of the fiscal year after that.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  So does that 

16           amount of money, that 55 million, 

17           approximately, does that also include judges 

18           who this year will reach the age of 70 and 

19           may request to be recertificated or 

20           certificated, whatever the word is?  And does 

21           it also include the judges who had been given 

22           certificates to continue past 70 whose 

23           two-year term will expire this year?

24                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  No, the 55 


                                                                   38

 1           million pertains only to the 46 judges who 

 2           were not certificated to start the beginning 

 3           of this calendar year, January 1, 2021.  

 4                  The judges who are currently 

 5           certificated and those whose certification -- 

 6           you know, you're right, it's difficult to 

 7           pronounce.  Those who would be up for 

 8           recertification, recertification at the end 

 9           of this calendar year are not impacted by the 

10           decision that was made this fall.

11                  And hopefully later this year the 

12           administrative board of the courts will be 

13           able to certificate and recertificate all or 

14           most of those judges.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  So there's a 

16           movement to make permanent virtual or remote 

17           arraignments in our criminal courts. 

18                  Do you have any particular view on 

19           whether that would be beneficial or 

20           detrimental to the concerns of due process?

21                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, you 

22           know, we've been -- out of necessity -- 

23           forced to convert to virtual proceedings 

24           throughout the court system, including for 


                                                                   39

 1           criminal arraignments.  The -- it's been 

 2           successful.  It was obviously done for health 

 3           and safety reasons, and a lot of this 

 4           experiment, if you will, with virtual court 

 5           proceedings I believe will continue 

 6           post-pandemic, post-vaccination.

 7                  But whether that makes sense for 

 8           arraignments is something we would have to 

 9           look at.  We'd be interested in the views of 

10           our judges, how they feel about that.  We'd 

11           be interested in the views of the district 

12           attorneys, we would be interested in the 

13           views, of course, of the criminal defense 

14           bar, we'd be interested in the Legislature's 

15           view on that.  That's something we'd have to 

16           look at.

17                  It has been very successful.  Tens of 

18           thousands of arraignments -- everyone who's 

19           been arrested in this state has been 

20           arraigned, the vast percentage of which have 

21           received arraignments within 24 hours.  It's 

22           been all virtual since the last week in 

23           March.  So it's been successful.

24                  Whether it makes sense to continue 


                                                                   40

 1           that is something we would have to look at at 

 2           the appropriate time.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  So as an old 

 4           public defender from many years ago, I might 

 5           simply add that something is really missing 

 6           in terms of due process and in terms of 

 7           interaction, basic interaction with those who 

 8           are charged with crimes where there is this 

 9           lack of personal immediacy between defense 

10           counsel, even prosecutors and those accused, 

11           and the judges and those accused as well.

12                  But that's my two cents, as someone 

13           who's been --

14                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  I think 

15           that's --

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  -- defense 

17           counsel in the past.

18                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Interested 

19           in hearing about, you know -- 

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you.

21                  So we're going to end up with 

22           substantial case backlogs in our courts as we 

23           come to terms with how to best protect 

24           ourselves in the COVID crisis.  Do you think 


                                                                   41

 1           that there are going to be changes in law 

 2           that will be required in order to help 

 3           address those backlogs?

 4                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:   

 5           Absolutely.  You know, one of the things we 

 6           need to do to address backlogs -- I mean, 

 7           there's a series of things that we're going 

 8           to need to do, and we are doing, which 

 9           follows up on the Chief Judge's Excellence 

10           Initiative, which was four years in the 

11           making a year ago when we began to experience 

12           the pandemic -- and was a very successful 

13           initiative, dramatically successful in some 

14           courts, in reducing delays and reducing 

15           backlogs and resolving older cases.

16                  So we know how to do this.  And it's 

17           by looking at the data and sharing the data 

18           and focusing on older cases.  And 

19           importantly -- and this has happened to some 

20           extent during the pandemic -- being able to 

21           move resources around, judges and staff, to 

22           address backlogs in the most efficient way.  

23                  So to answer your question, yeah, I 

24           think that the most helpful and important 


                                                                   42

 1           thing that the Legislature could do was to 

 2           revisit the chief judge's proposal that was 

 3           made last year to consolidate the trial 

 4           courts.  

 5                  I don't want to go into a long 

 6           discussion about this today, but as you know, 

 7           we have 11 separate and distinct trial courts 

 8           in the state.  It's far more than any other 

 9           state in the country.  It's a complicated, 

10           redundant, byzantine process.  It makes it 

11           much more difficult to administer the courts.

12                  So if there was one thing in 

13           particular that the Legislature should do, in 

14           our opinion it would be to revisit that 

15           proposal and pass it -- or at least, since 

16           it's a constitutional amendment, see to first 

17           passage of our proposal this legislative 

18           year.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you, Judge.

20                  Finally, the events of January 6th are 

21           fresh on our minds and will forever be seared 

22           on the mind and the heart of our nation.  

23           We've never seen anything like this before.  

24           Our courthouses represent our government.  


                                                                   43

 1           Throughout the entire State of New York -- I 

 2           don't even know how many courthouses we have.  

 3           I bet we have more than a hundred courthouses 

 4           --

 5                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Over 300.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Over 300.  See, I 

 7           wasn't even close.  Close enough for 

 8           government work, as they say, but not close 

 9           enough.

10                  What steps are anticipated to be taken 

11           in order to provide protection to those 

12           representatives -- those courthouses which 

13           are so representative of our governmental 

14           authority?

15                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  It's an 

16           excellent question.  And in fact we did take 

17           steps last month and, you know, we continue 

18           to be on alert for the problem that you 

19           raise.

20                  Our public safety command, our 

21           leadership of our court officer command, are 

22           in regular contact with law enforcement, FBI 

23           and other law enforcement, State Police, with 

24           regard to credible threats, you know, to 


                                                                   44

 1           government buildings in the state, including 

 2           courthouses.  So we -- and I don't want to 

 3           get into too much detail about what we do if 

 4           there is a credible threat, but we have 

 5           measures in place and provide additional 

 6           resources where that's necessary when we 

 7           learn of a credible threat or a possible 

 8           credible threat.

 9                  So it's something we're very mindful 

10           of.  It's a very real issue, as you point 

11           out.  And we do have protocols in place to 

12           protect the courthouses, you know, if and 

13           whenever that's necessary.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you so very 

15           much, Your Honor.

16                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  I yield my seven 

18           seconds.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

20                  Assembly, I'm going to pass it back to 

21           the Senate, if it's all right with you.

22                  And our next speaker is our chair of 

23           Codes, Jamaal Bailey, for five minutes.

24                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Thank you.  Five 


                                                                   45

 1           minutes and seven seconds, as time was 

 2           yielded by Chair Lavine.

 3                  Good morning, Madam Chair, good 

 4           morning, Madam Chair Weinstein.  Liz, I'm 

 5           very sad that we won't have budget pizza 

 6           today.

 7                  Judge Marks, good to see you.

 8                  I'm going to jump right into it.  This 

 9           is my fifth budget hearing, and in each of 

10           the times we've had a conversation at the 

11           budget we've spoken about diversity, not just 

12           within the ranks of OCA via the LEO Program, 

13           which is great, but also diversifying the 

14           bench.

15                  And one of the things that Senator 

16           Hoylman wasn't able to touch on was the 

17           effect that it had on diversity within the 

18           ranks of the bench in the Borough of the 

19           Bronx and also Queens.  Many of the judges 

20           that we are losing as a result of OCA's plan, 

21           the decertification plan, are people of 

22           color.  And as individuals of color are 

23           disproportionately affected by the justice 

24           system, we are disproportionately not 


                                                                   46

 1           represented within the ranks of the 

 2           judiciary.

 3                  I'm asking, were bar associations such 

 4           as the MBBA, Dominican Bar Association, PRBA 

 5           or community organizations, were they -- did 

 6           you have conversations with them when this 

 7           was taking place?

 8                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  No, 

 9           frankly, we didn't.  It was a strict 

10           budgetary decision.  We felt it was a 

11           necessary and unavoidable and difficult 

12           budgetary decision.  And it was not discussed 

13           with bar associations or other groups.

14                  I could say fortunately -- look, 

15           you're absolutely right, and we've talked 

16           about this in the past.  The judiciary can 

17           be -- should be more diverse, has to be more 

18           diverse.  It has become more diverse over 

19           time, but a lot of work left to do on that.  

20           But I would say fortunately, of the 46 judges 

21           who were not certificated, there were only 

22           six judges of color.  So -- and again, I'm 

23           not minimizing that; that's six judges of 

24           color fewer that we have now than we did in 


                                                                   47

 1           December.  But fortunately it was not a 

 2           larger number than that or a larger 

 3           percentage.

 4                  And I think if -- and these judges by 

 5           definition are all 70 or older.  But if for 

 6           some reason a younger group or bloc of judges 

 7           left the court system, it would be far more 

 8           likely that proportionally that younger bloc 

 9           of judges would be more diverse and would 

10           include more judges of color than this group 

11           of 46 judges.

12                  But again, I don't want to disagree 

13           with you or argue with you on that point, 

14           because losing six judges of color is losing 

15           six judges of color.  It's not a good 

16           situation.

17                  SENATOR BAILEY:  And I would say those 

18           six of 46, yes, in the aggregate that may not 

19           be as much of a percentage.  But again, if 

20           you hyper-local focus on the Bronx, we have a 

21           much larger percentage of judges of color 

22           that we've lost within a borough that has a 

23           majority minority population.  So I would ask 

24           that we keep these things in mind, always 


                                                                   48

 1           based upon context.

 2                  The next question I have is related to 

 3           pretrials.  Under the pretrial reforms that 

 4           we've -- that we were able to pass, the great 

 5           pretrial reforms that we were able to pass, 

 6           there are some reports that are due in of 

 7           November of '21 and January of '22.  Are you 

 8           having data collection issues with those, or 

 9           do you anticipate that they would be 

10           completed on time?

11                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Yeah, I 

12           believe the first one is due early July of 

13           this year.  And we're hard at work on that.  

14           We're working hand in hand with the Division 

15           of Criminal Justice Services, and I know you 

16           have the DCJS commissioner, Mike Green, 

17           testifying a little later this morning.

18                  So we are hard at work on that, have 

19           been for months, and expect to meet the 

20           statutory deadlines.

21                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  So again, with 

22           the -- and again, funding, right, funding 

23           issues as related to the discovery reform 

24           that the Governor has put in the budget, has 


                                                                   49

 1           OCA taken a position on the amount of money?  

 2           Is it sufficient, should there be less, 

 3           should there be more?

 4                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  I think 

 5           you're talking about funding for prosecutor 

 6           offices?

 7                  SENATOR BAILEY:  The discovery reform, 

 8           yes.

 9                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Yeah.  We 

10           haven't taken a formal position on that.  But 

11           I can tell you from my own understanding of 

12           this, and background and experience, that the 

13           new legislation does impose substantial 

14           additional burdens on district attorneys.  So 

15           if they're asking for additional funding, I 

16           would offer that that's something that the 

17           Legislature should look at seriously.

18                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  I would add my 

19           voice to the chorus of Chairman Lavine about 

20           the in-person appearances being critical to, 

21           I think, the -- to the integrity of our 

22           justice system, as related to the Article VII 

23           proposal.

24                  And if there's time for a second 


                                                                   50

 1           round, I will come back.  But I yield my 

 2           seven seconds, Madam Chair.  Thank you.

 3                  Thank you, Judge.

 4                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So we now go to 

 6           Assemblyman Dinowitz for five minutes.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Good morning.  

 8           Five minutes and seven seconds.

 9                  Good morning, Judge Marks.  It's good 

10           to see you.

11                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Good 

12           morning.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  I'm glad you're 

14           here today.  I think it's regrettable that 

15           it's under these circumstances with the 

16           horrible budget that you have to deal with.  

17                  I wish -- I wish OCA had participated 

18           in the hearing that the Assembly had a few 

19           months ago on the budget, because one of the 

20           things I think is important is that when a 

21           decision is made, it should at least bring in 

22           some of the stakeholders, the Legislature -- 

23           because, after all, the Legislature has the 

24           authority to review, modify and approve 


                                                                   51

 1           budgets.  But not only the Legislature, but 

 2           other stakeholders -- bar associations, the 

 3           New York State Trial Lawyer, defenders 

 4           associations, civil legal services -- all the 

 5           stakeholders that are really impacted by 

 6           these very crucial decisions.

 7                  So I would hope that on important 

 8           decisions like that, in the future, that 

 9           those things would be taken into account.

10                  And I just wanted to say that the 

11           46 judges, eight of them are from the Bronx.  

12           We comprise, in the Bronx, 7 percent of the 

13           state's population, yet 17 percent of the 

14           judges that are being eliminated were working 

15           in the Bronx -- the borough, the county that 

16           is probably in the greatest need of every 

17           county in the state.

18                  And of the minority judges that you've 

19           referred to, people of color, of the six 

20           judges, three of them are from the Bronx, 50 

21           percent.  That's also a big problem, I think.

22                  And the Borough of Queens, I think 

23           they lost six judges.  That's a very high 

24           number.  And the impact of this decision is 


                                                                   52

 1           not evenly distributed throughout the state, 

 2           but in fact certain areas -- and I will say, 

 3           again, particularly the Bronx is most heavily 

 4           impacted {audio out} -- civil court judges, 

 5           criminal court judges to become acting 

 6           supremes, but that means that you're emptying 

 7           out the civil court and the criminal court, 

 8           which I think is another problem that you're 

 9           going to face.

10                  But let me ask you this question.  The 

11           cost of -- that you're going to save by 

12           eliminating a judge -- a judge makes a 

13           salary, but that judge will then start 

14           collecting pensions at a much earlier stage.  

15           And the cost of the pension is very 

16           significant.  Now, I realize the pensions 

17           don't come out of OCA's money, but it comes 

18           out of the taxpayers' money one way or the 

19           other at some point or another.

20                  So given the fact that you're not 

21           really saving money by -- or at least not a 

22           significant amount of money by firing these 

23           judges, how do you really justify that?

24                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, it's 


                                                                   53

 1           true that the -- if you look at it from an 

 2           overall state perspective, I believe there's 

 3           still a savings for the state as a whole, but 

 4           not the full 55 million.  

 5                  But the fact of the matter is, I mean, 

 6           our responsibility is to balance our budget 

 7           and operate within the money that's allocated 

 8           to us.  And there's no question that there's 

 9           a $55 million savings to the Judiciary, which 

10           of course is our primary concern.

11                  Assemblyman Dinowitz, could I just 

12           respond very quickly to the -- what you said 

13           about the Bronx and losing those judges?  

14           It's seven judges.  Two were in the Criminal 

15           Term, five were in the Civil Term Supreme 

16           Court.  We through reassignments -- we 

17           haven't waited.  And we haven't even done 

18           this by taking judges out of, as you said, 

19           robbing the lower court, the lower criminal, 

20           lower civil courts.

21                  We've taken judges -- Supreme Court 

22           justices and two Court of Claims judges who 

23           were appointed by the Governor last summer, 

24           and the five judges that the Civil Term lost 


                                                                   54

 1           in Bronx Supreme Court -- because we are very 

 2           concerned about that, as you are, and please 

 3           believe me when I say that, because Bronx is 

 4           a court that's struggled with backlogs 

 5           historically over the years.  

 6                  We have held the Civil Term of Bronx 

 7           Supreme Court harmless with respect to the 

 8           five judges in the Civil Term who were not 

 9           certificated by moving five other judges into 

10           Supreme Court.  And the administrative judge 

11           of that court is very pleased that we were 

12           able to do that, and is not complaining about 

13           judicial resources -- at least for now.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Oh, I'm sure 

15           the complaints will be coming in the near 

16           future.  

17                  But, you know, I understand what you 

18           said about you're worried about the Judiciary 

19           Budget, and rightly so.  But we as 

20           legislators have to look at the whole 

21           picture, and the whole picture is that 

22           ultimately the taxpayers really are not 

23           saving much money at all, but yet we're 

24           concerned about how that's going to affect 


                                                                   55

 1           how justice is dispensed in every county in 

 2           the state.  

 3                  And my time is up.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So we go to the 

 6           Senate now.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 8           much.

 9                  We're next going to Senator Tom 

10           O'Mara.

11                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you, Chairwoman 

12           Krueger.  

13                  Good morning, Chief Judge.  Thank you 

14           for being with us today.

15                  I want to first thank 

16           Assemblyman Lavine for his opening quote 

17           regarding tyranny, and the protection of our 

18           government organizations.  And that's 

19           certainly never been made clearer than the 

20           61-day siege of our federal courthouse in 

21           Portland and the several-week siege of a 

22           police precinct in Seattle.

23                  What is the court system doing, 

24           Your Honor, to prevent something like that 


                                                                   56

 1           happening here in New York State?

 2                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  That's an 

 3           interesting question.  It's not one that's 

 4           occurred to me, whether the judiciary has a 

 5           role in protecting attacks and assaults on 

 6           other governmental buildings.  I mean, other 

 7           than if that occurs and people are arrested 

 8           and they're charged with crimes, the 

 9           judiciary will adjudicate those cases.

10                  But other than that --

11                  SENATOR O'MARA:  I guess I'm talking 

12           in particular, what efforts are being made to 

13           protect courthouses in particular, since it 

14           was a federal courthouse in Portland that was 

15           under siege for 61 days.

16                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Yeah, as I 

17           noted before, we have protocols in place to 

18           deal with credible threats to our more than 

19           300 courthouses throughout the state.  And 

20           we've instituted those protocols at different 

21           times when there has been a credible threat.  

22           And we are confident that we would be able to 

23           protect our courthouses if they were under 

24           assault.  In anything remotely like what 


                                                                   57

 1           happened in Washington, we would be able to 

 2           protect -- we would be ready for that in the 

 3           courthouses.

 4                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you.  I hope we 

 5           are, because we certainly do not want to see 

 6           that here -- anywhere, but especially here in 

 7           New York State.

 8                  Moving on to virtual appearances, I'm 

 9           drawing a blank on the section of law right 

10           now, but we've been working on it in our 

11           judicial district on virtual criminal court 

12           appearances.  Some counties in the state 

13           are -- had the ability to do virtual 

14           appearances even before this pandemic, I 

15           believe.  Now others are allowed to do them 

16           while this pandemic is continuing.

17                  What are your thoughts on expanding 

18           that type of virtual appearance activity to 

19           these other counties that haven't been able 

20           to do it before?  Because I think, from what 

21           I've been seeing, it has been very 

22           successful, certainly in criminal cases with 

23           the transporting of inmates back and forth.  

24           And these appearances aren't for the purposes 


                                                                   58

 1           of sentencing or live testimony of witnesses 

 2           at hearings and things, but for the more 

 3           run-of-the-mill control dates and things.

 4                  What's your thoughts on expanding that 

 5           to these other counties that won't be able to 

 6           continue that when the pandemic ends?

 7                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Yeah, I 

 8           think under one of the Governor's executive 

 9           orders it's permitted across the state, video 

10           court appearances and routine proceedings in 

11           criminal cases.

12                  I agree, it has been very successful 

13           across the state.  We would be supportive 

14           that -- the provision in the Criminal 

15           Procedure Law, I believe it's Article 182, 

16           allows for this in a limited number of 

17           counties.  As I said, the Governor's 

18           executive order allows it -- you know, for 

19           now, at least -- across the state.  So we 

20           would be fully supportive of legislation that 

21           would expand the current provision in the 

22           Criminal Procedure Law to all 62 counties of 

23           the state.

24                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Great.  Thank you 


                                                                   59

 1           very much.

 2                  Can you just briefly, in the minute 

 3           that's left here -- you've talked a little 

 4           bit about backlog, and we certainly have had 

 5           backlog in our court systems at both civil 

 6           and criminal levels for some time.

 7                  How has the pandemic to this point 

 8           exacerbated that backlog?  And when this 

 9           pandemic ends and we get back to fully 

10           functioning courtrooms, how long is it going 

11           to take us to dig out?

12                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Backlogs 

13           have grown, not necessarily across the board.  

14           In fact, in Supreme Court, civil cases in 

15           Supreme Court, the backlog interestingly has 

16           not skyrocketed.  It's been fairly modest.  

17           And I think that's because virtual 

18           proceedings have worked so well in Supreme 

19           Court where, in the overwhelming number of 

20           cases, the litigants are represented by 

21           counsel.  So when that's the case, as 

22           compared to courts that handle a large 

23           proportion of their cases are -- involve 

24           self-represented litigants, who are not 


                                                                   60

 1           always as able to navigate the technology to 

 2           participate virtually.

 3                  So -- but we do have backlogs that 

 4           have grown.  Look, the court system has 

 5           always had backlogs.  That's been the key 

 6           focus of Judge DiFiore in her tenure as chief 

 7           judge, is to attack backlogs and make the 

 8           courts more efficient and eliminate delays.  

 9           We have made tremendous success in that, as I 

10           noted before, but we're really going to have 

11           to redouble our efforts post-pandemic and, 

12           you know, focus intensively on the older 

13           cases, collect a lot of data -- because a lot 

14           of this is data-driven -- and share that data 

15           with our administrative judges and our 

16           rank-and-file judges.  

17                  In high-volume counties, assign 

18           dedicated judges just to focus on trying to 

19           resolve the older cases; make greater use of 

20           alternative dispute resolution; and be more 

21           creative and flexible in how we move and 

22           assign our judicial and nonjudicial 

23           resources -- among other steps we're going to 

24           have to take to address what are going to be 


                                                                   61

 1           very substantial backlogs.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 3                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you, 

 4           Your Honor.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, Tom.  

 6                  I'm passing it back to the Assembly.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go now for 

 8           three minutes to Assemblywoman Rajkumar.

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR:  Thank you, 

10           Chairman Weinstein.  Thank you to our 

11           Assembly Judiciary chair, Chuck Lavine.  

12                  And thank you, Chief Judge Marks, for 

13           your time and your testimony today and for 

14           your efforts to maintain the integrity of our 

15           justice system during the very many 

16           challenges presented by this pandemic.

17                  I have three quick questions for you 

18           this morning, and my first question is about 

19           the discovery reform.  How is the discovery 

20           reform that we enacted last year working out 

21           now in the New York State courts?  I know 

22           that prosecutors must disclose their evidence 

23           earlier and that discovery is more enhanced.  

24           How are the district attorneys adjusting?


                                                                   62

 1                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well -- I'm 

 2           sorry.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR:  Yeah, I 

 4           thought -- let me just get my three questions 

 5           out and then I look forward to your answers.

 6                  So I just wanted to know how it's 

 7           playing out in our courts. 

 8                  And my second question will be no 

 9           surprise; I want to ask how the Office of 

10           Court Administration is managing layoffs 

11           generally during the pandemic.  

12                  And I know, as was mentioned here 

13           several times, OCA was forced to lay off at 

14           least 325 court employees, 92 non-judicial 

15           chamber staff, and then of course compelled 

16           those 49 judges to retire.  So can you just 

17           speak in more detail about how you're 

18           managing the layoffs generally, giving us 

19           insight into your strategy and thinking as a 

20           manager as you run OCA.  

21                  And then, relatedly, given that we do 

22           not have enough court personnel, can you talk 

23           about the steps that OCA is taking to deal 

24           with the backlogs in the courts and the 


                                                                   63

 1           overworked staff?  Thank you.

 2                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Okay.  Just 

 3           quickly on discovery, the Governor's 

 4           executive order stayed or suspended the -- 

 5           you know, the swifter timetables that were 

 6           part of the discovery reform that was passed 

 7           by the Legislature.  

 8                  So it's premature -- I think most DA's 

 9           offices are trying to comply because they -- 

10           you know, at some time the executive order 

11           will be lifted and the full extent of the 

12           legislation will take effect again.  So I 

13           think a lot of the DA's offices -- it would 

14           be a good question for them, better for them 

15           than to me.  But that they're complying 

16           nonetheless or, you know, gathering the 

17           information that they're going to need 

18           because the day of reckoning will come when 

19           the executive order is lifted and the reform 

20           takes full effect again.

21                  As for layoffs, we have not had to 

22           institute layoffs.  And that was the primary 

23           -- our primary goal and what led to the 

24           decision not to certificate -- recertificate 


                                                                   64

 1           the 46 Supreme Court justices, because it was 

 2           an either/or proposition.  Either we saved 

 3           the money from not certificating the Supreme 

 4           Court justices or we laid off over 300 

 5           employees.  And we made the difficult 

 6           decision that it made more sense, as 

 7           difficult as it was, to not certificate the 

 8           judges rather than to lay off the employees.

 9                  And that was motivated by operational 

10           reasons, where we felt we could not afford to 

11           lose more employees on top of the attrition 

12           that's resulted from our strict hiring 

13           freeze.  And it was also, we felt, the humane 

14           decision, given that if there were layoffs it 

15           would be disproportionately younger employees 

16           with lesser seniority who would not be 

17           eligible for pensions and would have great 

18           difficulty finding other employment, you 

19           know, in this economic situation.

20                  So I hope that answers your questions.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR:  So when you 

22           say -- I know my time is up, but when you say 

23           there's no layoffs, I mean, it was reported 

24           in the Daily News that there was 300 layoffs.  


                                                                   65

 1           Can you clarify for me what you mean?

 2                  THE MODERATOR:  Time has expired.

 3                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Yeah -- 

 4           well, it's important.  There were no layoffs.  

 5           We avoided -- if the 46 judges had been 

 6           certificated, that would have translated into 

 7           and compelled us to lay off 325 employees.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Judge -- Judge, 

 9           we're going to go back to the Senate now.  

10           Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

12           much.

13                  We next go to Senator Gounardes, from 

14           Brooklyn.

15                  THE MODERATOR:  I do not see him in 

16           here, Senator Krueger.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  All right, we'll 

18           circle back to him.

19                  Senator Kevin Thomas.

20                  Kevin, are you there?  There you are.

21                  SENATOR THOMAS:  Can you hear me?

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yes.

23                  SENATOR THOMAS:  All right, excellent, 

24           excellent, excellent.


                                                                   66

 1                  Thank you, Chairwoman Krueger, and 

 2           thank you, Judge Marks.  

 3                  I just want to take this opportunity 

 4           to say how disappointed I am with New York 

 5           City Courts and their handling of COVID.  

 6           There are several issues which I would like 

 7           to address, but I will focus my time on two 

 8           things.

 9                  First, the need for cleaning at the 

10           courthouses.  I remember talking about this 

11           earlier on, but I specifically mention the 

12           Bronx Supreme Court.  Every other day a court 

13           employee tests positive with COVID, but 

14           proper cleaning is not done in the areas 

15           where the employee worked.  And there are set 

16           guidelines for worker safety, and I don't 

17           think the courts are following that.

18                  Second, it's nearly impossible for 

19           litigants to get their court file.  You know, 

20           this kind of delay is resulting in litigants 

21           not being able to fight their cases.  This is 

22           a violation of due process.

23                  I'm sure, again, this is not the first 

24           time you're hearing about these issues, and I 


                                                                   67

 1           cannot believe this is not rectified.  Are 

 2           you putting pressure on supervising judges at 

 3           these courts to fix these problems?

 4                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Okay, just 

 5           going to the first issue with court cleaning.  

 6           And you and I have talked about this, and 

 7           I've looked into it every time we've talked 

 8           about it, and there's no question in my mind 

 9           that there is extensive cleaning going on 

10           when -- particularly when a court employee is 

11           reported that they've tested positive for the 

12           virus, there's extensive cleaning going on.  

13           It's done by, in New York City -- the DCAS 

14           agency is, as you know -- maybe not everyone 

15           knows our courthouses are not owned by the 

16           state court system or maintained by the state 

17           court system, they're owned and maintained by 

18           local government, New York City -- and 

19           outside the city, the county governments.

20                  And there is no question in my mind -- 

21           and we really have to get to the bottom of 

22           this.  It might be helpful if we knew who -- 

23           if we had specific information where people 

24           believe that cleaning is not being done.  


                                                                   68

 1           Because I've talked to many people about this 

 2           within the Office of Court Administration, 

 3           and we've talked to people within DCAS, the 

 4           responsible agency in New York State 

 5           government, and there is extensive cleaning 

 6           going on.  Not just regular cleaning -- which 

 7           is elevated over the regular cleaning that's 

 8           done in normal times, and that was done 

 9           pre-pandemic -- but particularly when someone 

10           -- we learn that an employee or someone else 

11           has been in the building or has been in a 

12           courtroom who subsequently tests positive, 

13           there's very extensive state-of-the-art 

14           cleaning going on in those situations.

15                  So I'm not -- I'm not disputing what 

16           you're hearing, but we -- you and I have to 

17           talk further and get specific information 

18           about where we think there have been 

19           problems.  And I can promise you, you know, 

20           we will look into them.  And if there are 

21           problems, we will address them. 

22                  But -- but what I'm being told by 

23           everyone involved in this is that -- what I 

24           already knew is that we have very extensive 


                                                                   69

 1           cleaning protocols in place in all of our 

 2           courthouses throughout the state.

 3                  As to your second question, if I could 

 4           quickly, about getting files, we spoke about 

 5           this as well, Senator Thomas.  I looked into 

 6           it.  It is in fact a problem.  It's a 

 7           function mainly of limited and reduced 

 8           staffing in the courthouses.  But you've 

 9           identified a legitimate problem, it's a 

10           problem we need to address.  The ultimate 

11           answer is to do more scanning so that we have 

12           fewer or no paper records and everything is 

13           digital and online and accessible to 

14           lawyers -- and the public, for that matter.  

15           And that's something, you know, we will work 

16           on.  That's not a simple thing to do across 

17           the board, but New York City Civil Court, 

18           where you've identified the problem, does not 

19           have efiling -- 

20                  (Zoom interruption.)

21                  SENATOR THOMAS:  Will you mute, 

22           please.

23                  Judge, I know we are running out of 

24           time.  But in the meantime, what are 


                                                                   70

 1           litigants supposed to do when they've filed 

 2           their --

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  No, sorry, you've 

 4           already run out of time.  So you can follow 

 5           up with him in writing or afterwards, all 

 6           right?

 7                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  We'll talk 

 8           further.

 9                  SENATOR THOMAS:  All right.  Thank 

10           you, Judge.

11                  Thank you, Chair. 

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

14           Assemblyman Epstein, three minutes.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you, Chair 

16           Weinstein.  

17                  And good to see you, Judge.

18                  Just -- I wanted to second the point 

19           about the money for legal services.  I think 

20           the cuts are going to be catastrophic for 

21           millions of New Yorkers.  I hope you 

22           reconsider the 10 percent cut, because Judge 

23           Lippman worked very hard to get to $100 

24           million, and it hasn't budged since then.  We 


                                                                   71

 1           want the number to go up, not down, during a 

 2           pandemic, and I hope you figure out a way to 

 3           just support additional funding.

 4                  On diversity of the bench, you know, I 

 5           know there's a huge issue with the lack of 

 6           diversity of the bench.  And I'm wondering -- 

 7           you know, a report came out last year saying 

 8           there's more diversity in judges that are 

 9           elected than appointed.  And I'm wondering 

10           about how you feel about moving towards more 

11           of an elected bench where that will allow 

12           more diversity in our judicial system.

13                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS: 

14           Institutionally, we don't have a position on 

15           that.  I mean, we have great elected judges, 

16           we have great appointed judges.  We really 

17           can't take a position and get -- that's a 

18           politically charged issue, an issue for the 

19           Legislature, not for the court system.

20                  I will tell you, though, that the 

21           one --

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Judge, just -- 

23           it isn't really, because the court makes 

24           appointments, you make Housing Court 


                                                                   72

 1           appointments, you make a lot of appointments 

 2           that has made the bench less diverse, 

 3           according to reports that we've gotten.

 4                  So we really want the court to be a 

 5           partner in this, and we make sure that the 

 6           bench reflects New York's population, and 

 7           right now it's not doing that.

 8                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  We appoint 

 9           Housing Court judges -- it's actually my 

10           appointment, based on a qualification process 

11           by a statutory advisory council.  And half of 

12           our Housing Court judges are people of color.

13                  So I don't know that there's any 

14           category of judgeships that's as diverse as 

15           our Housing Court judges, who we appoint 

16           ourselves.

17                  Acting Supreme Court justices, which 

18           you might be thinking of, I agree, we can do 

19           a better job of diversifying the ranks of our 

20           acting Supreme Court justices.  And we will 

21           make every effort to do that.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you, I 

23           appreciate that.

24                  You know, I just wanted to see how -- 


                                                                   73

 1           you know, we passed making sure that ICE was 

 2           no longer in the court system.  I wanted to 

 3           make sure there wasn't any implications for 

 4           that.  

 5                  I know I have less than a minute left, 

 6           so just before you answer that, I want to 

 7           just echo my colleagues about -- around 

 8           arraignments, how important it is for 

 9           in-person conversations between a lawyer and 

10           their client.  I've been a lawyer for over 25 

11           years in New York, and I can tell you that, 

12           you know, you can't really get the same thing 

13           on Zoom as you can in person.  And I think 

14           especially people in criminal proceedings 

15           really need to have that face-to-face time.

16                  And if you could also ask -- answer 

17           about the declaration form for commercial and 

18           residential tenants, what are you hearing in 

19           the court system, you know, about that.  And 

20           I'll give you the time you have to answer 

21           those two quick questions.

22                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Okay.

23                  With the declarations, about a half a 

24           million were sent out by our office.  We have 


                                                                   74

 1           not gotten a lot of feedback yet, how that's 

 2           working.  There have been -- and I can get 

 3           you, I don't have it at my fingertips, but I 

 4           can get you the number.  And it's a 

 5           fast-moving target because it increases every 

 6           day, but -- the return of signed 

 7           declarations.  But I can get you numbers on 

 8           that.

 9                  But the important news is we did get 

10           out all of them several weeks ago.  The form 

11           that -- the manual form that's sent out is in 

12           English and Spanish.  But I think it's six or 

13           seven most commonly spoken languages other 

14           than English.  The form is accessible on our 

15           website, and that's noted in different 

16           languages on the hard copy form that we sent 

17           out.

18                  So we're optimistic that this will 

19           work out very well.  And -- but more 

20           information to come.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

23           We'll go to the Senate, but before that I 

24           just want to introduce some members who have 


                                                                   75

 1           joined us since we began:  Assemblyman 

 2           O'Donnell, Assemblyman Kim, Assemblyman 

 3           Byrne, Assemblyman Ashby and 

 4           Assemblyman Palmesano.

 5                  Now to the Senate.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 7                  I was going to call on Senator John 

 8           Brooks -- ah, here he is in his chair.  

 9           Perfect timing.  Senator John Brooks, chair 

10           of Homeland Security and Veterans, 

11           five minutes.

12                  You need to de-mute.  Unmute yourself, 

13           John.

14                  SENATOR BROOKS:  Yeah, it wasn't 

15           cooperating.  Thank you, Madam Chair, I 

16           appreciate it.

17                  Judge, we appreciate you being with us 

18           today.  

19                  I want to just move maybe to a 

20           brighter note for just a moment and ask if 

21           you would comment on the Veterans Treatment 

22           Courts, the expansion of the program, the 

23           success we're seeing, where you think that 

24           can go, and how you see or don't see the 


                                                                   76

 1           acceptance of other neighboring counties 

 2           accepting to participate in the program.

 3                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  The 

 4           Veterans Courts are terrific.  We've expanded 

 5           them.  We have 37 Veterans Treatment Courts 

 6           throughout the state, and that's not enough, 

 7           we need more in the remaining counties.  We 

 8           have an office that's dedicated within the 

 9           Office of Court Administration to assisting 

10           localities with problem-solving courts, 

11           including the Veterans Courts.

12                  And, I mean, I've never heard a word 

13           of criticism, or at least as to the concept 

14           of a Veterans Court, on either side of the 

15           aisle or anyone, any stakeholder in the 

16           justice system in this state, I've never 

17           heard anything other than positive comments 

18           and response about Veterans Courts.  And 

19           we're fully committed to them.  

20                  And as I said, we're not stopping at 

21           37.  Maybe when I come back next year to 

22           testify it will be 62, or much closer to 62.

23                  SENATOR BROOKS:  That sounds good.  

24           And I agree, I think that's a great tool and 


                                                                   77

 1           great success.  And I thank you, and I yield 

 2           back my time.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 4           much.

 5                  Assembly.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes, we go to 

 7           Assemblyman Goodell, three minutes.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN GOODELL:  Thank you very 

 9           much, Chairman.

10                  Chairman, can you hear me?

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN GOODELL:  Thank you very 

13           much, Chairman, and thank you very much to 

14           Judge Marks.

15                  As you noted earlier in your testimony 

16           that Judiciary curtailed many in-person 

17           proceedings earlier this year, and of course 

18           that's creating even more backlogs.  And as 

19           you acknowledged in earlier testimony, the 

20           backlog is substantial and growing.  Of 

21           course one of the largest and most 

22           significant backlogs is in the Housing Court, 

23           because we haven't had any evictions now -- 

24           it looks like it will be over a year. 


                                                                   78

 1                  My question, though, is at the same 

 2           time that the court system is closing down 

 3           in-person proceedings and creating more 

 4           backlog, virtually every private-sector 

 5           business has been reopening.  And the court 

 6           system itself has been giving several 

 7           decisions striking down regulations that keep 

 8           the private sector closed.

 9                  So my question is why are the courts 

10           closing to in-person proceedings while the 

11           private sector is doing everything it can to 

12           open?  And isn't the closing of the courts to 

13           in-person proceedings merely exacerbating the 

14           already horrific backlog that exists in 

15           Housing Court and some of our other courts?

16                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, with 

17           all due respect, I think the analogy to 

18           business organizations, you know, may not be 

19           a sound one.  

20                  Courts are different in many respects 

21           from most private organizations in that we 

22           have tens of thousands -- in normal times we 

23           have tens of thousands of people coming into 

24           our buildings every day.  And, you know, to 


                                                                   79

 1           suggest that we should go back to -- now, 

 2           coming out of a second resurgence, that we 

 3           should go back to normal in-person operations 

 4           is just contrary to the advice of every 

 5           public health expert we've talked to, 

 6           including our own public health expert.

 7                  And, you know, we haven't -- we did 

 8           very early on in the pandemic, in late March 

 9           and April and part of May, shut down all 

10           in-person operations, and we were conducting 

11           business entirely virtually.  And then we -- 

12           in the spring, the later spring, we started 

13           to expand in-person operations.  We brought 

14           back, among other in-person operations, grand 

15           juries and criminal and civil jury trials, 

16           along with other in-person operations.

17                  But we -- with the onset of the second 

18           resurgence, we did cut that back again.  We 

19           have not suspended grand juries.  Every 

20           county in the state continues to have at 

21           least one functioning grand jury.  And, you 

22           know, when we're advised by the experts that 

23           it's safe to resume jury trials, we will do 

24           that.  In fact, we've been talking about that 


                                                                   80

 1           recently.  

 2                  And if things go well -- and we can't 

 3           predict the future with this pandemic, but if 

 4           things continue to improve, we will resume 

 5           jury trials, which are clearly a critical 

 6           part of the justice system, both on the 

 7           criminal and civil side.  We can't have a 

 8           fully functioning court system without jury 

 9           trials.  To some extent it's what drives the 

10           court system, because although as you all 

11           know a very small percentage of cases 

12           actually go to trial, the opportunity to try 

13           a case is what drives settlements and pleas 

14           and other dispositions.

15                  So we're entirely guided by public 

16           health experts and what they're saying, what 

17           they're advising us.  And hopefully we will 

18           be able to resume more in-person proceedings.  

19           We haven't suspended all of them, but 

20           hopefully we'll be able to resume more and 

21           continue that and return things as close to 

22           normal before everyone is vaccinated as best 

23           we can.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN GOODELL:  Thank you, 


                                                                   81

 1           Judge.  I do note that I sent you some 

 2           questions back in November of last year 

 3           relating to the budget.  I hope and trust 

 4           you'll be providing me with a response to 

 5           those?

 6                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Sure.  I 

 7           can call you or respond in writing or both.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN GOODELL:  Thank you very 

 9           much, Judge.

10                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  We 

12           go to Assemblywoman Joyner, three minutes.

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN JOYNER:  Okay, thank 

14           you.  Good morning, everyone.

15                  I want to just say fantastic job by 

16           our chairs who are running all of these 

17           hearings.  Thank you so much.

18                  Good seeing you again, Judge Marks.

19                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Good to see 

20           you.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN JOYNER:  I have a couple 

22           of questions.  As you know, this pandemic has 

23           placed a strain and an unprecedented backlog 

24           on the New York State court system.  And, you 


                                                                   82

 1           know, I want to echo the concerns that my 

 2           Bronx colleagues have brought up of, you 

 3           know, it's concerning that OCA didn't consult 

 4           with the Legislature or with the Governor's 

 5           office, with key stakeholders, trial lawyers, 

 6           bar associations.  It's very concerning 

 7           because, you know, we're all partners in this 

 8           whole thing, and it would be helpful that, 

 9           you know, we can all be included in the 

10           discussions to help make sure that the court 

11           system is running smoothly for all litigants.

12                  So my first question is, did OCA 

13           conduct any study on the impact of 

14           eliminating these 46 judges from the court 

15           system and its impact on the backlog of the 

16           court system?

17                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  No, we 

18           conducted no formal study.  But the decision 

19           was based on our long and in-depth experience 

20           in administering and managing the courts.  

21                  And the judges -- by definition, the 

22           judges who were not certificated are judges 

23           who sit in the Supreme Court.  And we felt 

24           that the alternative -- if the judges were 


                                                                   83

 1           certificated, we would have to lay off 

 2           employees.  That would have impacted 

 3           disproportionately on courts that have large 

 4           numbers of self-represented litigants who of 

 5           necessity have to rely on court staff -- 

 6           court officers, court clerks, help desk 

 7           employees -- for advice and direction on how 

 8           to navigate the court system.

 9                  And we felt that -- not that this was 

10           a simple decision or an easy decision.  It 

11           wasn't.  Don't misunderstand me -- but that 

12           given the two bad choices, the worst choice 

13           would have been to certificate the judges and 

14           have to lay off hundreds of employees.

15                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN JOYNER:  Well, I hope 

16           that there will be a follow-up and a review 

17           of the impact of this.  

18                  And I have 30 seconds left, but you 

19           and I worked very closely on making sure we 

20           had a Legal Hand site in the Bronx.  It has 

21           closed, unfortunately.  It would be great to 

22           figure out how we can revamp that and revive 

23           that.  

24                  And then we've also worked on the 


                                                                   84

 1           language access problem in the Housing Court.  

 2           Are there any plans from OCA to expand this 

 3           in other courts?

 4                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  The simple 

 5           answer is yes.  We need to do more with 

 6           language access.  It's a very challenging 

 7           area.  It can involve more resources.  We 

 8           don't have a lot more resources.  

 9                  But the simple answer to your question 

10           is yes, language access initiatives can be 

11           expanded to other courts, and that's 

12           something we will look at.

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN JOYNER:  Thank you.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

15                  We're going to go -- I believe the 

16           Senate does not have any other --

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Correct.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Okay, so we're 

19           going to go now to Assemblywoman Seawright, 

20           three minutes.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT:  Thank you, 

22           Chair Weinstein, and Judge Marks for your 

23           testimony today.  

24                  I just have a couple of questions.  


                                                                   85

 1           Under Judge DiFiore's proposed simplification 

 2           plan, certain courts like Family Court and 

 3           Surrogate's Court would join the Supreme 

 4           Court.  Family Court facilities have 

 5           designated areas that Supreme Courts lack, 

 6           like childcare and a help desk for litigants 

 7           who are unrepresented.  How will OCA take 

 8           this into account?

 9                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  We would 

10           take it fully into account.  Under the 

11           proposal, Family Court -- we would have a 

12           consolidated Supreme Court, which would 

13           include Family Court, but we would have 

14           divisions within the Supreme Court, including 

15           a Family Law Division.  

16                  So sort of the unique layout in 

17           resources that Family Courts have now would 

18           continue.  I mean, those facilities obviously 

19           would continue to be used and the design of 

20           those facilities would continue to support 

21           the way that the cases would be handled, 

22           although they would be Supreme Court cases, 

23           not Family Court cases, under our proposal.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT:  Okay, thank 


                                                                   86

 1           you.

 2                  The pandemic has reduced the ability 

 3           of OCA to host events, trainings, in-person 

 4           conferences, saving money in your budget.  

 5           Have you put a dollar amount on how much has 

 6           been saved from all of these in-person 

 7           trainings and hotel stays for your senior OCA 

 8           officials now that don't travel?

 9                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  We can 

10           calculate that number.  I don't have it with 

11           me at the moment, but we will get you that 

12           number.

13                  So there's been -- we've done a lot of 

14           training, though, I just want to emphasize 

15           that.  It's been online primarily for health 

16           reasons, but it's also had the benefit of 

17           saving us some money.  And I will get you 

18           that number.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN SEAWRIGHT:  Okay, thank 

20           you.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So now we go to 

22           Assemblywoman Fahy.

23                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you, Judge.  

24           I know this -- a couple of questions have 


                                                                   87

 1           been asked already, but I just want to go 

 2           back to a couple of them.

 3                  One, I just want to reiterate my 

 4           sharing of the concerns with the courts being 

 5           closed for the access.  And certainly I've 

 6           seen a lot of concerns raised about that 

 7           we're not processing those who are accused 

 8           and -- so very concerned about, you know, 

 9           what is needed with technology and what have 

10           you.  But I also -- in order to keep them 

11           open and keep them full functioning as well 

12           as to address the backlog.  

13                  But my question, though, is also on 

14           the retirements.  What is the plan to reduce 

15           the number of elected Civil Court judges by 

16           appointing them to the Supreme Court?  And 

17           I'll get back to the retirements.

18                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Just -- if 

19           I understand your question, you mean what is 

20           the plan for designating lower court judges 

21           as acting Supreme Court justices who can then 

22           sit in Supreme Court and handle Supreme Court 

23           cases?  Is that your question?

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Yes, reduce -- 


                                                                   88

 1           yes, to reduce the number of elected 

 2           Civil Court judges by appointing them to the 

 3           Supreme Court.  How do you plan to reduce 

 4           that?

 5                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  And are you 

 6           --

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  As well as, you 

 8           know -- as well as -- I'll combine it with 

 9           the next one, which is to increase the number 

10           of Court of Claims judges, the plan to 

11           increase the Court of Claims judges appointed 

12           to the Supreme Court.  So however you want to 

13           broadly address that.

14                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, Court 

15           of Claims is entirely the province of the 

16           Governor.  And there are Court of Claims 

17           vacancies.  And, you know, those nominations 

18           and appointments are usually made at the end 

19           of the legislative session.

20                  So I'm not aware that there's been any 

21           discussion yet about that.  But there will 

22           be, you know, later in the spring, I would 

23           think.

24                  In terms of elevating lower court 


                                                                   89

 1           judges, Civil Court judges to Supreme Court, 

 2           we have not done that yet this year.  That's 

 3           usually done at the beginning of every 

 4           calendar year when we go through and rethink 

 5           all judicial assignments throughout the 

 6           state.  We haven't done that this year at 

 7           all.  We haven't appointed new acting Supreme 

 8           Court justices with judges from the lower 

 9           courts.  We will do that if we determine that 

10           it's needed.  

11                  But I think, as someone suggested a 

12           while before, it's kind of a zero-sum game.  

13           Because if you take judges out of the lower 

14           courts and you put them in Supreme Court, 

15           you've helped Supreme Court but you've robbed 

16           the lower court.  So it's kind of an art, not 

17           a science, I would say.  

18                  But it's an option that we have, and 

19           it's a critical option that will help us 

20           attack backlogs as we go forward, 

21           particularly post-pandemic.

22                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Okay.  Just 

23           overall, just want to share the concerns on 

24           the retirements, especially the diversity 


                                                                   90

 1           among the retirements.

 2                  Thank you so much, Judge, and I think 

 3           I've used my time.  Thank you, Chair.

 4                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go now to 

 6           Assemblyman Lawler.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Thank you, 

 8           chairwoman.

 9                  Judge, thank you for joining us this 

10           morning, appreciate your testimony.  

11                  I want to focus in on the 

12           Ninth Judicial District, which is where I 

13           live; Rockland County is part of that 

14           district.  Currently, there are 40 judges 

15           within that judicial district -- 29 of them 

16           come from Westchester, 11 of them come from 

17           the other four counties:  Rockland, Orange, 

18           Putnam and Dutchess.

19                  So roughly 72.5 percent of the judges 

20           that are elected come from Westchester 

21           County.  Westchester makes up about 47 

22           percent of the total population of the 

23           judicial district; the other four counties 

24           make up about 53 percent.


                                                                   91

 1                  I have put legislation in to create a 

 2           new judicial district to ensure that there is 

 3           adequate representation for the other 

 4           counties within this judicial district.  

 5           Clearly, you know -- and obviously that is in 

 6           part a political problem, where these judges 

 7           are being elected from.  But clearly the 

 8           other four counties are not getting equal 

 9           representation.

10                  I'm just curious if you have any 

11           comment as to whether or not it might make 

12           sense to create a new judicial district to 

13           ensure equal representation within those 

14           other four counties.

15                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, 

16           remember, we do have authority within a 

17           judicial district to move judges around.  So 

18           there are judges who are either elected from 

19           Westchester or reside in Westchester who sit 

20           in other counties.  And we sort of every 

21           year -- and throughout the year, for that 

22           matter -- look at that to make sure that the 

23           assignments are consistent with the caseloads 

24           and the backlogs within all the counties of a 


                                                                   92

 1           judicial district.

 2                  But in terms of creating another 

 3           judicial district, that's something we could 

 4           look at.  And happy to talk to you about that 

 5           to see if that makes sense and, you know, 

 6           meets the district -- wisely meets the 

 7           district -- the needs and the circumstances 

 8           of the district.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  I appreciate 

10           that, and I very much look forward to 

11           speaking with you about that.  I think the 

12           caseload will show that the other four 

13           counties certainly are on par with 

14           Westchester, and certainly there is a need 

15           for more judges to be sitting in those other 

16           counties.

17                  In the time I have left, I would also 

18           just ask, currently, do you know how many 

19           judges from the 9th J.D. have been assigned 

20           to the Bronx or other judicial districts 

21           outside of the 9th J.D.?

22                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  I do not 

23           believe any have been assigned to other 

24           judicial districts.  But there are some 


                                                                   93

 1           judges who are assigned to the Bronx, that's 

 2           correct.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay.  And the 

 4           reason for that is based on caseload?  Or 

 5           what's -- what's the reason why they are not 

 6           serving the people they were elected to 

 7           serve?

 8                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  It's based 

 9           entirely on caseload and the caseload needs 

10           and backlogs in the Bronx.  

11                  And the judges who have been 

12           reassigned -- and these are not permanent 

13           reassignments.  They're usually temporary 

14           reassignments.  It could be a year, it could 

15           be less than a year, it could be longer than 

16           a year.  But they're temporary assignments, 

17           and it's strictly based on need.  And it's 

18           with the cooperation and participation of the 

19           individual judges, you know, who have agreed 

20           to a temporary reassignment.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay, I'd like to 

23           follow up with you on that.  Thank you.

24                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Sure.


                                                                   94

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 2                  We go to Assemblywoman Kelles.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Good morning, 

 4           Judge Marks.  It's nice to e-meet you, for 

 5           starters.  And thank you to both the --

 6                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Good 

 7           morning.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Good morning.

 9                  Thank you to both chairwomen for their 

10           endurance, if nothing else, through these 

11           meetings.

12                  I have one question related to a 

13           comment earlier about the impact of the 

14           discovery reform on district attorney 

15           offices.  I just wanted to share a bit of 

16           information.  I know in one of my counties 

17           they've had to hire a third investigator and 

18           an additional paralegal.  They've had to add 

19           their own dedicated wireless network due to 

20           the bandwidth they're using.  And they have 

21           also had to send a lot of the labs out to 

22           private labs because of a backlog at the 

23           state labs, and those are, you know, multiple 

24           times more expensive.  


                                                                   95

 1                  So I'm curious what data you're 

 2           looking at that shows that there's no real 

 3           impact on costs.  I certainly think that 

 4           discovery reform was -- I personally think it 

 5           was a great idea, but the cost impact and the 

 6           lack of funding is concerning.

 7                  So I wanted to hear your response to 

 8           that and if there's any data or connection or 

 9           communication with the district attorneys on 

10           that point.

11                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Yeah, I 

12           think I said that I agreed that there -- the 

13           new legislation imposes significant new 

14           burdens on district attorneys' offices, and 

15           it may well -- they might well benefit and 

16           make a good case for additional resources.

17                  I -- I haven't studied that particular 

18           issue myself, but I think there's no question 

19           the new law imposes significant new burdens 

20           on the DAs, and we certainly -- it's not 

21           really our issue.  We're more concerned and 

22           focused on additional burdens on the court 

23           system and whether we would require more 

24           resources as a result of this new legislation 


                                                                   96

 1           or any new legislation.

 2                  But we certainly would be sympathetic 

 3           to district attorneys' pleas for additional 

 4           resources to help them better comply with the 

 5           new discovery law.

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  And I'm 

 7           curious, in other comments on -- we had many 

 8           questions before; some of the points I'm very 

 9           much in support of about funding concerns for 

10           the 46 judges of course as well.  And I'm 

11           curious if there's any data on -- being 

12           collected on the time to arraignments that 

13           we're seeing.  Is that being tracked?  And 

14           can that be shared in response to the loss of 

15           the 46 judges?

16                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, these 

17           46 judges did not sit in the arraignment 

18           parts in the lower courts.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  But it can 

20           create a backlog, correct?

21                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  I -- well, 

22           I'm not so sure about that.  I don't know if 

23           I agree with that in terms of the -- we have 

24           enough judges to staff the arraignment parts.  


                                                                   97

 1           There really haven't been delays in 

 2           arraignment.  There's a mandate from an old 

 3           Court of Appeals decision which says that 

 4           people who are arrested for crimes and held 

 5           in custody and brought to court for 

 6           arraignment should presumptively be arraigned 

 7           within 24 hours.

 8                  And we do have data on that, and we do 

 9           track that regularly.  And we believe that 

10           the 24-hour rule is being complied with, 

11           particularly in New York City, where 

12           compliance with that rule has been a 

13           challenging issue for the courts and the 

14           whole criminal justice system for many, many 

15           years.  Arrests are down now, and the 

16           compliance for a speedy arraignment, if you 

17           will, has been good, from all the numbers 

18           that I've seen.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  It would be 

20           wonderful --

21                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

22           Thank you, Judge.  

23                  We're going to move on now to 

24           Assemblyman O'Donnell.


                                                                   98

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL:  Thank you very 

 2           much, Chair.

 3                  I've not been here for all of it; I 

 4           was conducting a committee meeting.  But I 

 5           want to make sure that you are hearing us.  

 6           Many of us are disturbed -- I'm outraged 

 7           about your decision to not certify some of 

 8           the judges who are available to be 

 9           recertified.  I'm disturbed because in my 

10           days when I was a mere Legal Aid lawyer, I 

11           would be accused of judge shopping if I 

12           hand-picked who could and who could not get 

13           certified.

14                  Additionally, just before you 

15           decertified those people, you put three new 

16           Court of Claims judges in.  Can you explain 

17           the rationale for creating three new 

18           judgeships when you're telling the most 

19           talented and experienced judges they can't 

20           stay on the bench?

21                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, we 

22           don't appoint Court of Claims judges.  The 

23           Governor does that.  So that was not our 

24           decision and never would be our decision.


                                                                   99

 1                  In terms of the --

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL:  Do you play 

 3           any role in who gets those jobs, sir?

 4                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  

 5           Occasionally we're asked for information if 

 6           there are judges who are under consideration, 

 7           as opposed to lawyers off the street.  

 8           Occasionally we're asked for information -- 

 9           caseloads and information on judges who are 

10           seeking nomination and apartment appointment 

11           to the Court of Claims.

12                  But in the end, that's the Governor's 

13           decision, not our decision.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL:  So you're 

15           suggesting to {inaudible} that you made a 

16           money decision about the careers of these 

17           extraordinary jurists and then the Governor 

18           in the next moment put three new people on 

19           the bench and you didn't know?

20                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, I 

21           think the timing of it was the reverse.  I 

22           could be wrong about this, but I believe the 

23           Governor made -- I think it was four Court of 

24           Claims appointments in June, you know, when 


                                                                   100

 1           those appointments are normally made, and the 

 2           decision about whether to certificate the 

 3           retired Supreme Court justices was made in 

 4           late September.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL:  Well, I could 

 6           hardly believe that the financial problems 

 7           that you bring up didn't exist in June but 

 8           did exist in September.

 9                  Having said that, I'm concerned about 

10           the courts that are open, and I'm 

11           particularly concerned about the judges who 

12           are asked to staff them.  Can you assure me 

13           that all judges who are staffing in-person 

14           courtrooms in the City of New York are 

15           getting access to COVID vaccine?

16                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  I can't 

17           assure you of that.  We have urged the State 

18           Health Department to include judges among the 

19           groups of people that are eligible for the 

20           vaccine.  We think it's incomprehensible that 

21           judges are not included on the eligibility 

22           list, and hopefully that happens soon.  I 

23           couldn't agree with you more on that one.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL:  Well, I can 


                                                                   101

 1           assure you it is not happening currently, and 

 2           I can assure you that the other employees of 

 3           the court system who stand next to the judges 

 4           are in fact getting the shot, but the judges 

 5           are not.

 6                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  You're 

 7           absolutely correct about that.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL:  Well, what can 

 9           you do about that, Judge?

10                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  We -- we -- 

11           the executive branch determines who is 

12           eligible.  We can't decide that on our own.  

13           We can interpret the guidelines, the language 

14           of the guidelines, and we have interpreted 

15           the language of the guidelines as applying to 

16           our staff.  But the language of the 

17           guidelines does not apply to judges, and 

18           we've urged -- believe me, we have urged the 

19           Health Department, the Governor's office to 

20           include judges among the categories of people 

21           and groups that are eligible and will 

22           continue to urge them to do that.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN O'DONNELL:  Well, I would 


                                                                   102

 1           certainly --

 2                  (Overtalk.)

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  The time is -- 

 4           we're a minute over.  Thank you.  Thank you, 

 5           Assemblyman.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you, Madam 

 7           Chair.  And thank you, Your Honor, for your 

 8           presentation.

 9                  I have two questions.  The first comes 

10           from one of the town judges in my district, 

11           who asks about the sufficiency of funding for 

12           the local courts for dealing with COVID-19.  

13           If you could address that.

14                  And the second question stems from my 

15           experience in local government regarding 

16           specialized courts.  And for example, in 

17           Westchester County there are specialized 

18           parts in several areas, including foreclosure 

19           settlement and environmental claims.  And my 

20           experience is they work well, and I'm 

21           wondering whether OCA is looking at 

22           establishing other specialized courts and, if 

23           so, what areas do you feel may be considered?

24                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Just going 


                                                                   103

 1           to your first question, the town and village 

 2           courts are part of the unified court system, 

 3           but they're not funded by the state, they're 

 4           funded by -- unlike all the other courts in 

 5           the state, the county courts, the family 

 6           courts, the surrogate's courts, the city 

 7           courts, the Supreme Court -- the town and 

 8           village courts are locally funded. 

 9                  And although we do have a grant 

10           program that we've had in place for years -- 

11           there's several million dollars in the grant 

12           program.  That would be continued in our 

13           proposed budget.  But we -- we don't have the 

14           money in our budget to fund the town and 

15           village courts in terms of PPE and 

16           retrofitting of courthouses.  

17                  We do have this grant program that 

18           they could take advantage of, but ultimately 

19           that's something the Legislature might want 

20           to look at, because the town and village 

21           courts are an important part of the court 

22           system.  They -- well over a million people 

23           go through the town and village courts -- it 

24           may be 2 million people -- year in and year 


                                                                   104

 1           out.  And we can't reopen the rest of the 

 2           court system to full in-person proceedings 

 3           and not do that for the town and village 

 4           courts.  

 5                  So it's something that the Legislature 

 6           should look at in terms of supporting those 

 7           courts.

 8                  As for problem-solving courts, we are 

 9           fully committed to our problem-solving 

10           courts.  There are hundreds of 

11           problem-solving courts throughout the State 

12           of New York.  We're committed to creating 

13           more.  I mean, they're all successful, they 

14           all address their own unique and specific 

15           problems.  And to answer your question, we're 

16           fully committed to our existing 

17           problem-solving courts and we're committed to 

18           expanding them to additional jurisdictions.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you.

20                  I do know that the town and village 

21           courts are supported locally, having been a 

22           supervisor of a town.  And I certainly will 

23           pursue that suggestion about the Legislature 

24           looking at supplemental funding.  


                                                                   105

 1                  Thank you very much.

 2                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We now go to 

 4           Assemblyman Byrne, three minutes.

 5                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  You're muted.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman -- 

 7           yeah, please.  

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN BYRNE:  Thank you.  Can 

 9           you hear me now?  Are we good?

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yes.

12                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Yes.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN BYRNE:  Okay.  Thank you, 

14           Chair.  And thank you, Judge Marks.

15                  My question is relating to the 

16           Drug Treatment Courts General Fund.  My 

17           understanding is that it's from 

18           $15.8 million, and it's being decreased by 

19           nearly half a million.  My question is, how 

20           does that affect the county drug treatment 

21           courts in the 9th Judicial District?  

22           Specifically, I represent Westchester and 

23           Putnam, but Putnam County's drug treatment 

24           court program has been lauded across the 


                                                                   106

 1           state and even somewhat nationally.  And I 

 2           know while we met often in the Legislature, 

 3           we may act in silos and say, This is my 

 4           county.

 5                  It's important to note that many of 

 6           the people that benefit from the 

 7           Putnam County Drug Treatment Court Program do 

 8           not live in Putnam County.  I would suggest 

 9           potentially even the majority of them may be 

10           from all over the state.  Putnam and 

11           Westchester are both part of the federally 

12           designated High-Intensity Drug Trafficking 

13           Area.  And in Putnam, unlike many other 

14           counties, we actually take on felonies, 

15           misdemeanors and alcohol-related offenses in 

16           the Drug Treatment Court Program, including 

17           DWIs, which I think is unique.  And it's been 

18           largely credited as a success to help give 

19           these people positive pathways to recovery, 

20           even making our roads safer.  

21                  But I'm concerned about that decrease, 

22           and I'd like to just hear from you, sir, as 

23           to how those state dollars flow through the 

24           9th Judicial District into our local county 


                                                                   107

 1           drug treatment courts.

 2                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, it's 

 3           a very important court.  We're fully 

 4           committed to it.  Its operations are 

 5           continuing.

 6                  I wouldn't be overly concerned about 

 7           that, that the budget shows a modest reduced 

 8           funding.  That may be the result of 

 9           attrition, it may be a single position will 

10           continue to be vacant under our hiring 

11           freeze.  And if that turns out to be a 

12           problem, if that's a critical position in 

13           that court's operations, we will move staff 

14           around to address that.  

15                  But I would not be overly concerned 

16           about that -- the impact on that court.  We 

17           will make every effort to ensure that it 

18           continues to be an effective and productive 

19           court.

20                  And if you're hearing anything to the 

21           contrary, you know, please let me know and 

22           we'll address it.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN BYRNE:  Thank you, Judge.  

24           I just want to make sure that they get the 


                                                                   108

 1           resources that they need, because the 

 2           benefits go way beyond just the people in 

 3           Putnam County, even residents from 

 4           Connecticut that come by.  So I think there 

 5           definitely is a state obligation to support 

 6           this type of program.  

 7                  And in Putnam County we were blessed 

 8           with a judge named James Reitz for many 

 9           years, who sadly suffered a heart attack 

10           while he was serving on the bench -- the man 

11           actually got an Emmy for his promotion of the 

12           Drug Treatment Court Program.  And it's now 

13           being managed by Judge Joe Spofford.  They do 

14           a tremendous job, but I just want to make 

15           sure they get the resources and support they 

16           need.

17                  Thank you, Judge.

18                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

20                  We go to the Senate now.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yes, thank you.

22                  We've been joined by Senator Palumbo 

23           and Senator Todd Kaminsky, and 

24           Senator Palumbo has some questions.


                                                                   109

 1                  SENATOR PALUMBO:  Thank you, 

 2           Madam Chairwoman.  

 3                  Judge Marks, good to see you again.

 4                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Good to see 

 5           you.

 6                  SENATOR PALUMBO:  How are you?

 7                  And I know I had to run down to the 

 8           floor for a little bit, so I'm sorry if I'm a 

 9           bit repetitive, but I just have two quick 

10           questions regarding the certification.

11                  Of those 46 judges -- I guess it was 

12           39 Supreme and seven Appellate Division -- 

13           were any of those judges removed due to 

14           either mental or physical incapacity?

15                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  No.

16                  SENATOR PALUMBO:  Okay.  And is there 

17           any sort of a process regarding whether or 

18           not that would have been evaluated at all?

19                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Oh, 

20           absolutely.  That's required under the 

21           provision in the Constitution.

22                  And under our rules, for a judge to be 

23           certificated, they have to undergo an 

24           independent medical -- physical and mental 


                                                                   110

 1           examination.  We contract with physician 

 2           firms who conduct those examinations, and 

 3           that's a critically important part of the 

 4           process.

 5                  SENATOR PALUMBO:  Sure.  So none of 

 6           those judges failed that aspect of their 

 7           recertification.

 8                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  That's 

 9           correct.  They might not all have completed 

10           the exam at the time that the decision was 

11           made, but I'm not aware that any judge had 

12           failed the independent medical examination.

13                  SENATOR PALUMBO:  Thank you.

14                  And of course in light of the backlog, 

15           they were not removed due to a smaller 

16           caseload -- or I think we can all agree on 

17           that issue as well, correct?

18                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  No, it was 

19           entirely about the extremely difficult budget 

20           situation.

21                  SENATOR PALUMBO:  It was purely 

22           financial, I would say, I guess.  

23                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Correct.

24                  SENATOR PALUMBO:  Okay.  Thank you.


                                                                   111

 1                  And now just to move on to the 

 2           evictions.  There were some administrative 

 3           orders, now we have legislatively allowed 

 4           someone to file a document that says that 

 5           they've been impacted by COVID or they're 

 6           having a tough time obtaining additional or 

 7           other means -- or other housing.  

 8                  My question, Your Honor, is in the -- 

 9           when this expires on May 1st, if there are 

10           additional administrative orders, I had some 

11           real concerns in my district where we had 

12           multi-millionaires from Manhattan living out 

13           on the East End of Long Island and refused in 

14           residential situations to relinquish their 

15           tenancy, indicating that it was because they 

16           didn't feel like going back to New York City. 

17                  So the real -- my question is, in the 

18           event that there are any further 

19           administrative orders, would you be willing 

20           to consider that it's only upon proof of 

21           COVID, of being impacted by COVID, that these 

22           folks would be able to stay and there would 

23           be a moratorium on those evictions?

24                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, we 


                                                                   112

 1           did have several -- there were executive 

 2           orders issues by the Governor, there were 

 3           several administrative orders issued by the 

 4           court system, signed by me.  And then there's 

 5           been at least two pieces of legislation that 

 6           were enacted, the most recent one in late 

 7           December and then the Safe Harbor Act earlier 

 8           in the year.

 9                  So we -- at this point I don't 

10           anticipate there will be any further 

11           administrative orders.  I mean, we're always 

12           concerned about the health and risks of large 

13           numbers of litigants and members of the 

14           public coming into the courthouses during the 

15           pandemic, and that's been an evolving -- 

16           obviously an evolving background to all of 

17           this.  But at the moment there's very 

18           detailed legislation on the books, we're 

19           complying with it, and at the moment we see 

20           no need for any further administrative 

21           orders.

22                  SENATOR PALUMBO:  Terrific.  Thank 

23           you, Your Honor.  I appreciate your time.

24                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.


                                                                   113

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 2                  Assembly.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

 4           Assemblyman Reilly, three minutes.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Thank you, 

 6           Madam Chair.  Thank you, Chief Judge Marks.

 7                  I was actually -- wanted to ask a 

 8           question about Mental Health Court here in 

 9           Staten Island.  Currently for misdemeanor 

10           cases we can't have them referred to 

11           Mental Health Treatment Court.  And I was 

12           wondering if there was -- if you could touch 

13           on that, and if there's an ability for us to 

14           open up the opportunity.  We can for felony 

15           cases, but at this time I think it would be 

16           great if we could open that up for 

17           misdemeanor cases as well.

18                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  That's an 

19           interesting question.  I'm not aware of that.  

20           That on its face doesn't seem to make sense.  

21           If felony cases are being referred to Mental 

22           Health Court, why not misdemeanors?

23                  I will have to take a look at that and 

24           I'll get back to you.  But you certainly -- 


                                                                   114

 1           you raise a very interesting question.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Okay, thank you.  

 3           I really appreciate that.  

 4                  And I yield the rest of my time.  

 5           Thank you.

 6                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Great, thank 

 8           you.  We now go to Assemblywoman McMahon.

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON:  Thank you, 

10           Madam Chair.

11                  And good morning, Judge Marks.  How 

12           are you?

13                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Good 

14           morning.

15                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON:  I just have a 

16           couple of questions.

17                  Regarding the certification of the 

18           judges over age 70, did I understand your 

19           testimony correctly that the plan is to 

20           follow the normal certification process for 

21           judges who will be turning 70 this coming 

22           year?

23                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  In judges 

24           who will be up for further recertification.  


                                                                   115

 1                  That is our hope.  You know, there are 

 2           too many question marks about the economy, 

 3           about our budget, about our operational 

 4           needs.  But certainly our hope is later this 

 5           year that judges will -- the judges who are 

 6           up for certification or recertification will 

 7           be able to be approved.  But I can't predict, 

 8           and I certainly can't guarantee that.  There 

 9           are too many variables.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON:  I understand.  

11                  And just one other question.  Do you 

12           know when the last time assigned-counsel 

13           rates were adjusted in the state?

14                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  I believe 

15           it was -- I don't know why I remember this, 

16           but I believe it was 2003 enacted by the 

17           Legislature, taking effect in 2004.  I could 

18           be off a year.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON:  Has OCA had a 

20           recent examination of those fees to look at 

21           maybe the appropriateness of adjusting them 

22           again?

23                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Yeah, they 

24           need to be adjusted.  It's been many, many 


                                                                   116

 1           years.  

 2                  We strongly advocated for raising the 

 3           assigned-counsel rates, the assigned-counsel 

 4           fees.  The Chief Judge has been vocal on 

 5           this.  Obviously at the moment there are, you 

 6           know, serious fiscal challenges.  But there's 

 7           no question, after what I believe is 16, 

 8           17 years without an increase, it's time for 

 9           an increase.  Very important.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN McMAHON:  Thank you very 

11           much.  Appreciate --

12                  (Zoom interruption.)

13                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We now go to 

14           Assemblyman Walczyk, three minutes.  

15           Thank you.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Your Honor, 

17           thanks so much for the time.  Wonderful to 

18           see you.

19                  District attorneys have a staggering 

20           backlog of cases in some cases.  What is the 

21           Office of Court Administration doing to 

22           ensure that speedy trial or speedy 

23           presentment aren't the reason that these 

24           cases are dismissed at the end of all of 


                                                                   117

 1           this?

 2                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Well, 

 3           we've -- we've -- at the moment, for 

 4           pre-indictment of felonies, the Governor's 

 5           executive order has suspended the speedy 

 6           trial statute, because that's in recognition 

 7           of the difficulty of presenting a backlog of 

 8           unindicted felonies to grand juries.

 9                  But what we've done is we brought back 

10           grand juries over the summer -- in July 

11           outside New York City, in August inside 

12           New York City.  And since then we've 

13           continued grand juries.  Every county in the 

14           state has at least one.  Some of the more 

15           populous counties have more than one, 

16           particularly in New York City.

17                  So we're trying to facilitate the 

18           easing of the backlogs by providing -- and, 

19           you know, it's very impressive that people 

20           are coming in to serve on grand juries.  You 

21           know, we weren't sure if we would get people 

22           to come in and serve, and it's been kind of 

23           remarkable that basically in the very similar 

24           numbers to people in pre-pandemic times, 


                                                                   118

 1           people are coming in and serving on grand 

 2           juries.  So they're doing their public 

 3           service, performing their civic duty.

 4                  So we also have -- particularly in New 

 5           York City, we've made an effort to designate 

 6           judges to conference unindicted felony cases 

 7           to try to resolve them.  And actually 

 8           that's -- we started doing that early in the 

 9           new year, last month, and there have been 

10           thousands of cases that have been resolved 

11           without the need to present those cases to 

12           the grand jury.

13                  So this is going to take a lot of 

14           work, but it's a top priority for us.  And, 

15           you know, we'll get through it.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Your Honor, one 

17           more.

18                  Your weekly address referred to 

19           electronic court systems as evolving into a, 

20           quote, unquote, better normal.  I was just 

21           wondering if you could explain to the members 

22           of the various committees that are 

23           represented what you meant by that.  And what 

24           health metrics are you following to return to 


                                                                   119

 1           in-person?  What can, you know, locals look 

 2           to for those metrics in anticipation that 

 3           they will return to some of their normal 

 4           operations?

 5                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  By the way, 

 6           the weekly remarks are from Chief Judge 

 7           DiFiore, not from me.

 8                  But in terms of virtual proceedings, 

 9           our view on virtual proceedings -- you know, 

10           we've tracked this very carefully, we've 

11           examined how it's worked.  In most instances 

12           it's worked very well.  But we're of the 

13           opinion that it's not the answer to all 

14           proceedings.  We don't think that, for 

15           example, grand jury proceedings or civil or 

16           criminal jury trial proceedings are ideally 

17           suited for a virtual presentation.

18                  But there are many other, particularly 

19           routine proceedings in civil courts where 

20           it's not necessary to drag people into court, 

21           that it's good for the lawyers, it's good for 

22           their clients, it's good for the court 

23           system.  It will -- it's more -- it can be 

24           more efficient and it can promote public 


                                                                   120

 1           health and safety.  

 2                  So it -- we're relying heavily on 

 3           virtual proceedings now, and they will have 

 4           an important role post-pandemic.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Thanks for the 

 6           time, Your Honor and Chairwoman.

 7                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 9                  We now go to Assemblyman Ra for 

10           five minutes, ranker on Ways and Means.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, Chair.

12                  Thank you, Judge Marks.

13                  So I just wanted to go back to -- you 

14           know, obviously there's been plenty said by 

15           my colleagues regarding the recertification 

16           of the judges and, you know, backlogs and all 

17           of that stuff.  

18                  But just with regard to those 

19           individuals, one of the things that came up 

20           when we had a hearing back in the fall was 

21           about, you know, the implication of not just 

22           not having, you know, the judges to handle 

23           the caseload, but the judges' staff, and, you 

24           know, having those folks that are there that 


                                                                   121

 1           help process cases, help write opinions, help 

 2           do all that type of stuff. 

 3                  And I know that, you know, basically 

 4           by law judges that are in-office are entitled 

 5           to have their staff to help them with their 

 6           caseload.  So I'm just wondering, what is the 

 7           status with regard to that in terms of the 

 8           employee head count within the agency?  Are 

 9           -- is there lacking of staff for judges, you 

10           know, through retirements and that?  Or are 

11           they able to hire people so that they have 

12           adequate staffing in each courtroom?

13                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  The 

14           Supreme Court justices have a -- it's in the 

15           Judiciary Law, they have a statutory 

16           entitlement to two personal appointments, a 

17           law clerk or a secretary.  And in some 

18           instances they don't hire a secretary, 

19           they'll hire a junior law clerk, if you will, 

20           someone recently out of law school.

21                  So the judges who were not 

22           certificated, the 46, had staff.  We 

23           committed to finding positions for that 

24           staff.  Some of those people decided to 


                                                                   122

 1           separate from service, retire or find a job 

 2           elsewhere.  But those who wanted to remain in 

 3           the court system we have found jobs for, 

 4           mostly with new judges coming in, 

 5           particularly new Supreme Court justices 

 6           coming in.  Although they're entitled to hire 

 7           the people they want, we got extensive -- a 

 8           tremendous amount of cooperation from 

 9           incoming Supreme Court justices to pick up 

10           the staff of the judges who were not 

11           certificated.  So in terms of those 

12           employees, they have all been placed.

13                  But generally, our staffing levels 

14           elsewhere in the court system -- not the 

15           personal staff of judges, but court officers, 

16           court clerks, court reporters, court 

17           interpreters, back-office staff -- we're down 

18           employees.  You know, I tried to address that 

19           in my opening remarks.  

20                  And, you know, we have a hard hiring 

21           freeze.  We're forced to do that to meet the 

22           bottom line.  You know, we haven't gotten 

23           significant increases in our budget.  Over 

24           the last decade they've been, you know, 


                                                                   123

 1           marginal increases.  So staffing was down to 

 2           begin with, and the last year has exacerbated 

 3           that situation.

 4                  So, you know, I'm not going to suggest 

 5           otherwise to you.  It's a real challenge for 

 6           us that we're going to have to -- we're going 

 7           to have to figure out.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.  Thank you for 

 9           that.

10                  And the other question, just more 

11           globally in terms of the budget of the 

12           department.  You know, there was a comment 

13           from the Budget Director, you know, that they 

14           didn't direct the agency necessarily what to 

15           do with their budget.  But obviously there's 

16           a, you know, $300 million figure out there of 

17           reducing costs.  

18                  So is that -- can you clarify that?  

19           Was that coming from the administration and 

20           the Department of Budget, or is that an 

21           internal measure to come up with that number 

22           to cut the budget by?

23                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  No, I'm 

24           glad you asked that.  It's an important 


                                                                   124

 1           question.  

 2                  We -- in late April when the Governor 

 3           issued and the Budget Director issued their 

 4           revised financial plan for the state, how 

 5           much revenue the state has and so on and so 

 6           forth, in the narrative of the revised budget 

 7           plan they urged and assumed that the court 

 8           system would reduce its spending by 

 9           10 percent. 

10                  And then they took a second step, they 

11           deducted that amount of money, the 10 percent 

12           from our budget, they deducted that from the 

13           revised financial plan.

14                  So, you know, given that, and given 

15           that we always try to act as a responsible 

16           partner in state government, we went ahead 

17           and proceeded to develop a plan to reduce our 

18           spending by 10 percent.  And so that's what 

19           we did.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, 

21           Judge Marks.  Thank you, Chairs.

22                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Thank you.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

24                  We go to Assemblywoman Byrnes.


                                                                   125

 1                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  Thank you.  

 2           Thank you, Madam Chair.  And thank you, 

 3           Chief Administrative Judge Marks. 

 4                  My question is based off of what was 

 5           just indicated, sir, when you spoke with 

 6           Assemblymember Ra.  You indicated that every 

 7           judge has the right to two personal 

 8           appointees.  My understanding, though, is 

 9           that in -- that there is also a hiring freeze 

10           on law clerks and secretaries to judges.  So 

11           my -- again, my understanding is that some 

12           judges are potentially going without 

13           secretaries, without law clerks because what 

14           would normally be their personal appointee 

15           positions are currently not fillable.

16                  So is it accurate to say that judges 

17           do have two appointees?

18                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Let me be 

19           clear about this.  The Supreme Court justices 

20           have a legal entitlement to two personal 

21           appointees.  The other judges do not.

22                  The practice has been, over the years, 

23           that other judges are entitled to hire one 

24           and in some cases two staff people.  And, you 


                                                                   126

 1           know, we've been able to support that in the 

 2           budget for years.

 3                  This year Supreme Court justices, 

 4           because there's a statutory entitlement, you 

 5           know, they have been able to fill vacancies 

 6           and hire their two people -- and have two 

 7           people work out of their chambers.

 8                  With the other judges who do not have 

 9           the statutory entitlement to -- for a 

10           personal appointment or personal 

11           appointments, we've said that every judge 

12           needs the assistance of an attorney, that a 

13           judge cannot do his or her job without the 

14           assistance of an attorney.  But what we've 

15           tried to do is where judges have a vacancy, 

16           someone has left and they don't have the 

17           assistance of an attorney -- not 

18           Supreme Court justices, but the other types 

19           of judges -- we've tried to get them to hire 

20           someone from within the court system, so that 

21           it's not someone off the street, increasing 

22           our employment level with the cost that that 

23           entails.

24                  We've tried to work with them, and 


                                                                   127

 1           it's been very successful, and the judges 

 2           deserve credit for this.  They understand the 

 3           fiscal situation.  And I would say 

 4           overwhelmingly when a non-Supreme Court 

 5           justice --

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  Sir, I 

 7           apologize.  Oh, my God, I've never 

 8           interrupted a judge before, but I only have 

 9           30 seconds left.

10                  I was the court attorney to an acting 

11           Supreme Court judge.  Are the acting Supreme 

12           Court judges who fulfill, in multi-bench 

13           rural areas -- they can't rely on somebody 

14           else to borrow a court attorney or a law 

15           clerk from.  You know, are they allowed to 

16           have the two personal appointees?  Or even as 

17           acting Supreme Court judges, are they locked 

18           into whatever they're allowed to have in the 

19           hiring freeze?

20                  Thank you, sir.

21                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Again, 

22           they're not legally entitled to that, but 

23           we've said as a policy matter every judge is 

24           entitled at least to the services of an 


                                                                   128

 1           attorney, and we've -- I believe we've done 

 2           that and we've felt -- there may be a rare 

 3           exception to this, but we've been able to 

 4           accommodate every judge in the state to 

 5           ensure that they have the assistance of an 

 6           attorney.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  Thank you, sir.  

 8           My apologies for interrupting you.

 9                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  No problem 

10           at all.  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

12                  Judge Marks, so I just have a very 

13           brief -- some very brief -- more comments, I 

14           think, than questions.

15                  I was very concerned to hear your 

16           response to Senator Hoylman about the cuts to 

17           civil legal services, the 10 percent cut.  As 

18           you know, I worked over the years with 

19           Judge Lippman to get us to that 100 million 

20           mark, which today even if things were 

21           perfect, would not be enough funding.  And 

22           with increased problems due to the pandemic, 

23           I would assume we've only seen an increase in 

24           need.


                                                                   129

 1                  So at the time you did the 

 2           10 percent cut, the Executive was withholding 

 3           20 percent from local assistance programs.  

 4           Since the Executive's budget has come out, 

 5           that has been reduced to just 5 percent of 

 6           the local assistance budgets of -- community 

 7           budgets.  So I was wondering if, in light of 

 8           the change in the Executive's position to 

 9           just withhold 5 percent, if you would be -- 

10           rethink the 10 percent and see what can be 

11           done to restore those -- make sure that those 

12           programs get fully funded.

13                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  I can 

14           commit to you that we will look carefully at 

15           that.  It might require extending our hiring 

16           freeze longer.  That's one of the options.  

17           We don't have a lot of options.  But I 

18           promise you we will look at that very 

19           carefully.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  And the 

21           question, has any -- have any of the stimulus 

22           pandemic fundings from Washington included -- 

23           any of the federal programs included any 

24           funds for legal services to assist people in 


                                                                   130

 1           terms of their staving off eviction or 

 2           mortgage foreclosure?

 3                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  Not that 

 4           I'm aware of.  The funding I'm aware of is 

 5           for -- are you talking about in the big -- 

 6           you know, what's described as the 

 7           $1.9 trillion package or the --

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes.  Well, 

 9           both the December -- the one passed in 

10           December and the proposed -- I mean, I -- I 

11           should know the answer to the question.  I 

12           don't.  But why don't we -- why don't we both 

13           examine whether there's any potential for 

14           legal services funding to assist people 

15           impacted by COVID-19.

16                  CHIEF ADMIN. JUDGE MARKS:  No, we 

17           should do that, I agree.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you, 

19           Judge.

20                  Back to the Senate.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

22                  Judge, I also don't have any questions 

23           today.  I want to thank you for your time 

24           with us and re-emphasize my Senate 


                                                                   131

 1           colleagues' agreement with the Assembly.  We 

 2           can't afford to cut legal services at this 

 3           time.  I'm not saying we can afford to cut 

 4           anything else in our court system.

 5                  But I think you have explained fairly 

 6           clearly that for the problems you're seeing 

 7           you feel like you have your arms around the 

 8           criminal justice side of the court system.  

 9           Arraignments have continued, courts have 

10           continued, there's been actually a decrease 

11           in the number of arrests coming into the 

12           courts.

13                  But we've also talked about at some 

14           point these moratoriums on evictions and 

15           foreclosures and debt and utilities are all 

16           going to come due.  And I think it's going to 

17           be an explosion throughout the court system 

18           to try to figure out how you deal with a 

19           volume you've probably never seen before.

20                  So I don't want to ask you how you're 

21           going to deal with that volume; I'm going to 

22           say to you, you need every tool in your 

23           arsenal probably to be increased, certainly 

24           not decreased, to try to get through that 


                                                                   132

 1           tsunami when it happens.  

 2                  So again, I will urge you, explore how 

 3           you have the resources, how you have your 

 4           specialized courts, have your specialized 

 5           courtrooms within your specialized courts, if 

 6           it's New York City, so that you're up and 

 7           ready for more foreclosures when those start 

 8           to happen, you're up and ready for the 

 9           residential evictions which we hope won't 

10           happen, the commercial evictions, which we 

11           also hope won't happen.  But we know it's all 

12           there, it's all building up.

13                  With that, we want to thank you very 

14           much for your time and we want to excuse 

15           you -- not that anybody's done with the 

16           courts, but we're done with you here today 

17           with us.  So thank you very much for your 

18           time.

19                  And I'm going to call up our next 

20           testifier, who is Robert Tembeckjian of the 

21           New York State Commission on Judicial 

22           Conduct.

23                  And for people who track these things, 

24           this is also under the rubric of the 


                                                                   133

 1           Judiciary Committee, with Senator Hoylman and 

 2           Assemblyman Lavine having 10 minutes, other 

 3           relevant chairs and rankers having five 

 4           minutes.

 5                  So, Robert, are you with us?  I think 

 6           you're there, but you're muted.  Take your 

 7           mute button -- oh, there we are.

 8                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Gotcha, 

 9           okay.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Great.  So good 

11           morning, or good afternoon, I'm not sure -- 

12           oh, still morning.

13                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Still 

14           morning.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Still morning.

16                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Which is a 

17           rarity.  But thank you very much.  

18                  I look forward to seeing many of you 

19           in person when we're allowed to do that 

20           again, and particularly the new Assembly 

21           Judiciary chair, Mr. Lavine.  I look forward 

22           to working with you as I have in the past 

23           with Assemblywoman Weinstein and Assemblyman 

24           Dinowitz, your predecessors in that role.


                                                                   134

 1                  As you know, the Commission on 

 2           Judicial Conduct is the state agency created 

 3           in the Constitution, independent of the court 

 4           system, to investigate and, where 

 5           appropriate, to discipline judges throughout 

 6           the New York State Unified Court System for 

 7           misconduct -- ethical misconduct as 

 8           promulgated in the rules on judicial conduct.

 9                  Like all of government and society, 

10           2020 presented some very unique challenges 

11           for us.  We are a small agency, and we're 

12           able to adapt rather well to the challenges 

13           presented to us by the coronavirus pandemic.  

14           On a budget of $6 million a year, we are 

15           responsible for overseeing the ethics 

16           enforcement on nearly 3500 judges throughout 

17           the Unified Court System.  And somehow, under 

18           the unique circumstances presented to us this 

19           year, we managed to shift our operations in 

20           early March from in-person to remote and 

21           almost entirely virtual.  

22                  We instituted video platforms so that 

23           we have been taking depositions and 

24           conducting hearings as well as interviews 


                                                                   135

 1           remotely, by video.  We have been 

 2           communicating through email and through 

 3           electronic use of faxes and the postal system 

 4           and, where necessary, private carriers.  And 

 5           our 11 commission members, who as you know 

 6           are appointed by various appointing 

 7           authorities -- some by the Governor, some by 

 8           the Chief Judge, and some by the leaders of 

 9           the State Legislature -- have been conducting 

10           all of our business remotely.  

11                  And the result was that in 2020, we 

12           publicly disciplined 24 judges throughout 

13           New York State, which is a greater number 

14           than in any year over the past decade.  And 

15           we were able to do it by essentially going 

16           into overdrive, as we adapted to the 

17           challenges of switching from in-person to 

18           video.  

19                  And although I vigorously agree with 

20           those who have presented the view that 

21           in-person proceedings, particularly our due 

22           process and deposition proceedings, are 

23           invaluable and really irreplaceable, under 

24           the unique circumstances presented to us this 


                                                                   136

 1           year we were able to manage.  

 2                  And I suspect that when we do return 

 3           to whatever the new normal will be, that 

 4           while we expect to return to in-office, 

 5           in-person operations to a great extent, we 

 6           will probably benefit from having pioneered 

 7           this year the uses of technology for remote 

 8           proceedings so that, where necessary, 

 9           witnesses who are in remote parts of the 

10           state or even in other states, who are 

11           physically challenged, who may be suffering 

12           from some infirmity that makes it difficult 

13           for them to reach one of our offices, we'll 

14           be able to communicate with them as you and I 

15           are communicating now by video.

16                  With all of that said, this year, 

17           rather uniquely, I am not asking for more 

18           money than the Governor's Executive Budget is 

19           proposing, which is the same dollar amount 

20           that we had last year.  

21                  As you know, we've been challenged for 

22           a number of years by the decision in the 

23           Executive Budget to keep the commission's 

24           appropriation flat.  And four times in the 


                                                                   137

 1           last 10 years the Legislature has increased 

 2           our appropriation, recognizing that the work 

 3           we do is essential, it is a constitutional 

 4           responsibility and obligation.  And to make 

 5           up for the fact that our staff has decreased 

 6           over the last decade from 51 full-time 

 7           employees to 39 -- while our caseload has 

 8           increased -- you have come through, time and 

 9           again, to supplement what the Executive has 

10           recommended.

11                  Because of the special challenges and 

12           strains and stresses on the state's finances 

13           this year because of the coronavirus 

14           pandemic, we submit a budget to you that asks 

15           for the same dollar amount as we had last 

16           year.  And in discussing it with the 

17           Governor's representatives, I'm happy to say 

18           that they agreed that that would be 

19           appropriate for us -- with a commitment, to 

20           the greatest extent possible, for us not to 

21           spend all of the money that is appropriated 

22           to us.  

23                  And as some of you know because I've 

24           sought your help in between these annual 


                                                                   138

 1           events, we sometimes disagree with the 

 2           Division of Budget on how our appropriations 

 3           should be spent or allocated during the year.  

 4           We have sometimes taken the position that 

 5           they can implement a cash ceiling on our 

 6           budget, as they do with executive agencies 

 7           that report to the Governor.  

 8                  But because we do not report to the 

 9           Governor, because we are constitutionally 

10           independent, our position has always been 

11           what the Legislature appropriates is what we 

12           spend, responsibly keeping it under the full 

13           figure to do our part, particularly in 

14           stressful times such as these.  

15                  And I'm pleased to be able to say this 

16           year, at least, that the Executive and the 

17           commission are on the same page, and I 

18           certainly hope that the Legislature would 

19           agree.  Not that I would object if you 

20           somehow managed to find additional funding to 

21           provide for us this year so that we can 

22           continue the regeneration of our staff, which 

23           you supported and found the funding for in 

24           previous years.  


                                                                   139

 1                  But given the state of affairs that we 

 2           all find ourselves in, we are committed to 

 3           making do with, again, a flat budget and 

 4           having demonstrated our adaptability in this 

 5           electronic age to the benefits of IT, we 

 6           think we can manage to do it.

 7                  I certainly hope to stem the tide of 

 8           departing staff who we cannot replace, which 

 9           typically is the way we save money over the 

10           years -- our expenses go up, our 

11           responsibilities increase as our caseload 

12           increases, and the only real place that we 

13           can find any savings is in not replacing or 

14           in deferring the replacement of staff that 

15           depart.  It slows us down, but we do the best 

16           we can.

17                  That said, I'm happy to respond to any 

18           questions that you might have, either on our 

19           performance this year, on the funding that 

20           we're requesting, or what we project for the 

21           coming year.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  Thank 

23           you very much.  

24                  I don't see hands, but I'm just going 


                                                                   140

 1           to double-check.  Does our chair of Assembly 

 2           Judiciary or Senate Judiciary have any 

 3           questions?

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Yes, I do.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Chuck.  

 7           Mr. Lavine.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  All right, 

 9           thanks.

10                  Mr. Tembeckjian, good to see you 

11           again, and I look forward to working with 

12           you.  I want you to know that I spent 

13           five years as cochair of the New York State 

14           Legislative Ethics Commission, and I also had 

15           so much fun in the five years that I served 

16           as chair of the Assembly Ethics Committee.  

17           So I have some special sense of understanding 

18           about what you do and how critically 

19           important it is.

20                  So let me ask you a couple of 

21           questions -- not so much dealing with the 

22           budgetary issue itself, although I hear what 

23           you're saying about your budget -- but a 

24           couple more granular questions.  


                                                                   141

 1                  So there is a -- you have -- there are 

 2           11 commission members, correct?

 3                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Yes, 

 4           correct.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Do you need a 

 6           majority of those commission members to be 

 7           able to institute an investigation?

 8                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  No.  There 

 9           are certain quorum requirements to impose 

10           discipline:  We need the participation of 

11           eight and the concurrence of six, no matter 

12           how many are in the room.  To authorize an 

13           investigation, we need the concurrence of a 

14           majority of those who are present for the 

15           meeting and the vote.

16                  But I would say that unlike other 

17           entities where the staff has the opportunity 

18           to screen complaints, although we analyze and 

19           summarize all of the complaints that we 

20           receive -- and last year that was 1500, down 

21           a little bit from the previous years, but 

22           with the courts having been closed for much 

23           of the year it's obvious why that number was 

24           down a little bit.


                                                                   142

 1                  But every commission member sees every 

 2           complaint that we get, even if it's not 

 3           against a judge, even if it's a 

 4           non-jurisdictional against a police officer, 

 5           a lawyer -- every one of our commission 

 6           members see every one of the complaints that 

 7           we get, and they all vote on them.  They have 

 8           the opportunity to hold for full discussion 

 9           if they wish, but there is an opportunity for 

10           each of them to see every complaint, and they 

11           all vote on them.  

12                  So it's fair to say that in my entire 

13           tenure, which is over 40 years at this, every 

14           investigation has had at least a majority of 

15           members voting, whether or not they were all 

16           in the room at the time.  Six out of the 11 

17           have authorized everything we do.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Very good.  And 

19           how are investigations initiated?  Must they 

20           come through complaints, or do you have the 

21           inherent authority or innate authority to be 

22           able to investigate on your own even about a 

23           complaint?

24                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  The 


                                                                   143

 1           statute under which we operate, Article 2A of 

 2           the Judiciary Law, provides for both.  We can 

 3           investigate complaints that we receive, 

 4           written complaints from anyone, or the 

 5           commission has the authority in statute to 

 6           initiate an investigation on its own motion.  

 7                  And in fact we do that on any number 

 8           of occasions during the year, based on 

 9           information that comes to our attention not 

10           through a complainant but through a newspaper 

11           article, through interviews or information 

12           that we come across while we are conducting 

13           ongoing investigations.  

14                  Sometimes anonymous complaints, where 

15           the individual for whatever reason is 

16           concerned about revealing himself or herself.  

17           If there is sufficiently detailed information 

18           in an anonymous complaint, we will take that 

19           as an opportunity to initiate the 

20           investigation on our own motion.

21                  But then again, that must be by a 

22           majority of the 11 commission members.  I 

23           don't have the authority to do that on my 

24           own.


                                                                   144

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  And with respect 

 2           to the non-jurisdictional complaints -- that 

 3           would be, for example, complaints against law 

 4           enforcement officers or complaints against 

 5           lawyers --

 6                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Yes.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  -- what does the 

 8           commission do with those complaints?

 9                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  We have 

10           statutory authority to refer them to 

11           appropriate entities or authorities, but we 

12           don't refer them automatically.  We will 

13           review each one of them to determine whether 

14           or not there appears to be some merit to the 

15           complaint, at which point we will give it the 

16           imprimatur of the commission and refer it.  

17                  We do not refer frivolous complaints.  

18           As you might imagine, we do get some of those 

19           every year.  And rather than burden some 

20           other entity -- and create a false hope to 

21           the complainant that someone else may be 

22           acting on their frivolous complaint, we will 

23           by majority vote of the commission decide not 

24           to do that, but we in writing explain to 


                                                                   145

 1           every complainant the reasons for our action, 

 2           including to those complaints that we choose 

 3           not to refer by indicating that it didn't 

 4           really involve misconduct against a judge and 

 5           there didn't seem to be a legitimate basis 

 6           for us to refer it elsewhere, but they 

 7           certainly could if they wished.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  And you mentioned 

 9           you now have 39 employees, you're down from 

10           51 not too terribly long ago.  Is that 

11           39 employees total?  Does that include 

12           lawyers, investigators, plus clerical staff?

13                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Yes, 

14           that's everything.  That's our entire -- our 

15           entire staff is 39 full-time employees, and 

16           we have two part-time staff who are retirees 

17           that we asked to -- if they could manage to 

18           give us two days a week to help us through 

19           some of the difficulties created by our staff 

20           having been reduced, essentially by 

21           24 percent over a decade.  Which is a pretty 

22           big hit.

23                  And it's why, in previous years, I've 

24           asked the Legislature to supplement the 


                                                                   146

 1           budget request that the Executive has put in 

 2           for us.  

 3                  As you know, because we're not an 

 4           executive agency and because there would be a 

 5           tremendous conflict for the court system to 

 6           control our budget, our budget is submitted 

 7           to the Legislature in the Executive Budget.  

 8           But unlike, you know, the typical agency 

 9           head, if I disagree with the Executive 

10           recommendation, I can come and tell you that, 

11           and my reasons for it, without fear of having 

12           no job when I get back to the office.

13                  (Laughter.)

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Mr. Tembeckjian, 

15           it's been a pleasure speaking with you.  I'm 

16           looking forward to working with you.  And 

17           thank you.  And please thank the members of 

18           the commission as well for working so hard to 

19           guarantee -- well I should say work toward, 

20           would be a better way to say it, the 

21           integrity of our judiciary system.  Thanks so 

22           much.

23                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Thank you 

24           very much.


                                                                   147

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  I yield whatever 

 2           time I have left.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 4                  On behalf of myself and the Senate, I 

 5           also want to thank you for the work of your 

 6           commission.  You know, I'm not an attorney, 

 7           but I've been here in the Legislature now -- 

 8           this is my 19th year, and it is so obvious to 

 9           me that democracies cannot stand if people 

10           lose faith in their judicial system.  You 

11           know, you have mistakes that happen up here 

12           with the Legislature and with local 

13           governments and with individual situations, 

14           and most of the time you figure it out 

15           without attempting coups on the U.S. Capitol.  

16           Most of the time.

17                  But if people don't believe that 

18           they're going to get, quote, unquote, a fair 

19           shake from judges in our court system, then 

20           almost anything we try to do here, or pass 

21           laws that make sense, you know, cannot work.

22                  So you know that I have been a fan of 

23           your office and have tried to ensure that we 

24           do get you some more funding and get the 


                                                                   148

 1           money released for you.  My question, because 

 2           it's another issue that I don't think we ever 

 3           get to in this state -- again, like I said, 

 4           I'm not a lawyer -- I am astounded we have 

 5           judges who are not lawyers.  Is that a higher 

 6           percentage of complaints that you see, a 

 7           disproportionate number of complaints that 

 8           come from courts where the actual judges have 

 9           no law school training?

10                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Certainly 

11           the percentage of public disciplines that we 

12           have imposed over the years has been higher 

13           for the town and village courts than the 

14           full-time courts.  And within the town and 

15           village courts, which are the only ones that 

16           can be presided over by a nonlawyer, the vast 

17           majority of those disciplines have involved 

18           individuals who are not lawyers.

19                  They make up about 60 percent of the 

20           overall judiciary, but they constitute 

21           70 percent of our disciplines overall.  

22           That's about 890 public disciplines over the 

23           last 40 years.  It's not to say that there is 

24           misconduct that a nonlawyer judge can commit 


                                                                   149

 1           that a lawyer judge can't commit, but the 

 2           numbers certainly do bear out your 

 3           impression, Senator Krueger, that the 

 4           majority of disciplines involves the 

 5           part-time town and village courts, the large 

 6           majority of those comprised of individuals 

 7           who are not attorneys.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Well, thank you 

 9           for confirming what I feared was the 

10           storyline.

11                  So to be more controversial, because a 

12           lot of people in the Legislature don't -- or 

13           haven't been thrilled with the idea of a 

14           parallel type of commission for district 

15           attorneys, although we did pass one, get it 

16           into law, then it blew up in our faces with a 

17           court case.  Do you think that a commission 

18           like yours can work for overseeing and 

19           ensuring the legitimacy of the decisions made 

20           by DAs around the state?  

21                  Is there a reason we should look at 

22           you as a model for them?  Because if we're 

23           going to do something, apparently we have to 

24           go back to square one.


                                                                   150

 1                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Well, I do 

 2           think that the commission is a model for 

 3           ethics reform at all levels of state 

 4           government.  And as you and I have discussed 

 5           individually, the Judicial Conduct Commission 

 6           is the model for a very interesting and I 

 7           think meritorious constitutional amendment 

 8           for redesigning JCOPE and applying our model 

 9           to the executive and legislative branches.

10                  Whether or not individually 

11           identifying one category of public official, 

12           such as district attorneys, makes sense is -- 

13           I think it's a legislative issue, and it's as 

14           much a political question as it is an ethics 

15           question.  If the Legislature were to decide 

16           that such an entity would be appropriate, as 

17           you did previously by legislation, I would 

18           recommend that the approach be via 

19           constitutional amendment, as you've already 

20           considered for the executive and the 

21           legislative branches.

22                  There is a mechanism within the 

23           existing grievance committees which are 

24           supervised by the appellate divisions, to 


                                                                   151

 1           discipline attorneys, including district 

 2           attorneys.  But having decided as a public 

 3           policy matter that it was a good thing, I 

 4           would recommend us as the constitutional 

 5           model as opposed to the legislative model.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  That will 

 7           take me another 18 years, but thank you for 

 8           that.

 9                  (Laughter.)

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I have a series 

11           of constitutional amendments that 

12           unfortunately don't seem to be going anyplace 

13           too fast.  But I appreciate that.

14                  Assembly, do you have any other 

15           questions?  Because we have one more Senator 

16           who does.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We do not have 

18           anyone.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  All right, then 

20           I'm going to call on our Judiciary chair, 

21           Brad Hoylman, who just rejoined us from 

22           another event.

23                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Hi.  Nice to see you 

24           again.


                                                                   152

 1                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Nice to 

 2           see you too.

 3                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  I'm glad we were 

 4           able to successfully fight for your funding 

 5           that you requested, and I appreciate how it's 

 6           been utilized since then.  

 7                  Are there any trend lines that you see 

 8           in the cases you've been handling that 

 9           require any legislative action on our part?

10                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  I don't 

11           think so.  I'm happy to say that the 

12           incidence of inappropriate demeanor appeared 

13           to be diminishing, which suggests to me that 

14           judges over time have become more sensitive 

15           to even the appearance of probity while on 

16           the bench.

17                  I also think that after 40 years of 

18           vigorous enforcement by the commission, there 

19           has been a salutary effect on the judiciary 

20           overall.  We are invited now annually to make 

21           presentations to newly appointed and newly 

22           elected judges.  Various judicial 

23           associations invite us to give annual 

24           presentations to their events.  And I think 


                                                                   153

 1           that overall we're seeing that there is a 

 2           greater appreciation and sensitivity by the 

 3           judiciary to its ethical obligations.

 4                  And I certainly wouldn't want to 

 5           suggest that because we had 24 public 

 6           disciplines this year that we are overseeing 

 7           a judiciary run amok -- quite the contrary.  

 8           Our experience is that the vast majority of 

 9           complaints that we receive are not 

10           substantiated, that the judiciary is 

11           comprised, generally speaking, of individuals 

12           who are highly capable, competent, dedicated 

13           and increasingly sensitive to their ethical 

14           obligations.

15                  So I don't think so.  There is a bill 

16           that Assemblyman Steck has introduced, which 

17           he has periodically, about mandating 

18           punishment for those judges who are 

19           exceedingly tardy in deciding pending 

20           matters.  But we have demonstrated -- there 

21           is a rule, an existing rule, that requires 

22           judges to dispose of the business of the 

23           courts efficiently as well as fairly, and we 

24           have disciplined judges publicly for delays 


                                                                   154

 1           in failing to decide cases on a timely basis.  

 2           And that's the only legislative issue that 

 3           I'm aware of at the moment that would 

 4           directly --

 5                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you.

 6                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  -- act 

 7           upon us.

 8                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you.

 9                  With the additional 300,000 that we 

10           were able to secure for the commission, how 

11           many additional cases have you been able to 

12           resolve due to that funding?

13                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Well, our 

14           pending cases at year-end actually declined 

15           by 23 percent.  We went from 231 pending two 

16           years ago to 177 now.

17                  Part of that is because even with a 

18           diminishing staff we had fewer incoming 

19           complaints this year, so that we were able to 

20           devote our existing resources a little more 

21           effectively toward pending matters.

22                  But there's no question that the 

23           300,000 from two years ago really was a major 

24           boost to us.  And it permitted, among other 


                                                                   155

 1           things, for us to be positioned to have the 

 2           physical resources -- the computers, the IT 

 3           network and so forth -- that enabled us to 

 4           adapt to an all-remote and electronic model 

 5           in March once the coronavirus pandemic 

 6           really hit.

 7                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Has it resulted in 

 8           additional staff?  Would you say that it's 

 9           improved the quality of investigations and 

10           hearings?

11                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  We 

12           certainly -- we certainly have been able to 

13           conduct more thorough investigations.  The 

14           overall impact on staff, however, has not 

15           been realized.  We're still at our lowest 

16           staffing point in 15 years.  We dropped from 

17           51 to 39 full-time employees.  And as I 

18           mentioned to Chairman Lavine, I was able, 

19           fortunately, to persuade two of our retirees 

20           to give us two days a week so that we can 

21           have the benefit of their experience and 

22           participation in our matters.

23                  But we are still terribly 

24           understaffed.  Had -- had our budget 


                                                                   156

 1           maintained the standard 2 percent annual 

 2           growth over the last 10, 15 years, our budget 

 3           today would be 6.7 million.  But it's 6 

 4           million, almost even -- 6,029,000.

 5                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  So I -- just to be 

 6           clear, the additional money that we secured 

 7           has gone into equipment and other types of 

 8           support, not staffing.

 9                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Yes, 

10           mandated -- mandated financial obligations 

11           that increased every year.  Raises for the 

12           existing staff that we -- that we still have, 

13           the increased costs of doing business, 

14           increased rent and so forth.

15                  That 300,000, as you recall, was 

16           intended as the first of a two-year bump to 

17           get us -- our staffing levels back up as 

18           well, but when the coronavirus hit last year 

19           we were forced to live with the flat 

20           $6 million recommendation, which we're 

21           proposing to do again this year.

22                  But the consequences of living on the 

23           same dollar amount year after year is 

24           essentially regressive financing, because our 


                                                                   157

 1           costs go up and in order to meet those rising 

 2           costs with the same dollar amount, we have to 

 3           cut something.  And although we did have 

 4           41 full-time staff at the start of the last 

 5           fiscal year, the two who departed for other 

 6           jobs we did not replace because we just -- we 

 7           just were too tight financially.

 8                  That would not have been the case if 

 9           the second year of your two-year program had 

10           gone into effect.  We'd have more staff now 

11           than we do.

12                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  And will you be able 

13           to hire more staff moving forward, or are you 

14           still in a triage mode?

15                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  No, not 

16           this year.  Not with another year of flat 

17           budgeting.

18                  It is my hope that if any one of our 

19           39 existing full-time employees leaves, that 

20           we'll be able to replace them, but we won't 

21           really be able to tell until we see the 

22           overall effect of this flat budget for yet 

23           another year, as we progress.  I'm hoping 

24           that we stay at 39.  We do not anticipate 


                                                                   158

 1           increasing unless you somehow miraculously 

 2           find some extra money to give us.  And as I 

 3           said just before you rejoined, although we're 

 4           asking out of a sense of civic responsibility 

 5           and duty for the same dollar amount this year 

 6           as last year, I certainly wouldn't object if 

 7           you managed to find some more for us.

 8                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you.

 9                  Thank you, Madam Chair.

10                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

12                  Any other Assemblymembers' light on, 

13           Helene?

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  No, we have no 

15           members.

16                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  All right.  Then 

17           I want to thank you very much for being with 

18           us today --

19                  ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:  Thank you, 

20           as always.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  -- I want to 

22           dismiss you to continue to work, and I want 

23           to call up William Leahy, New York State 

24           Office of Indigent Legal Services, and remind 


                                                                   159

 1           legislators that for this guest, 

 2           Jamaal Bailey and Jeff Dinowitz are the two 

 3           chairs of committees for the first 

 4           opportunities to question after testimony.

 5                  Good afternoon.

 6                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Good afternoon, 

 7           Chair.  How are you?

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I am fine, I am 

 9           fine.  How are you doing?

10                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  I'm doing well.  And 

11           thank you for the invitation and the 

12           advantageous placement.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Well, we're just 

14           screaming through this hearing -- okay, 

15           that's a lie.  It is 12:30 and you are number 

16           three of I think 31 today.

17                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Well, I want to speak 

18           to you, if I may, and your cochair and the 

19           chairs of the relevant committees, of course, 

20           and the other members -- essentially it's a 

21           tale of two constitutional responsibilities.  

22           And there's one tremendous success story for 

23           which we thank everyone far and wide, and 

24           then there's one of seriously 


                                                                   160

 1           unconstitutional stature and crying out for 

 2           attention.

 3                  So of course I speak of the public 

 4           criminal defense reforms that go back to the 

 5           Kaye Commission and the creation of my office 

 6           in 2010 and the settlement of the 

 7           Hurrell-Harring lawsuit and then the 

 8           enactment of Executive Law 832(4) in 2017 to 

 9           extend the benefits of that settlement to the 

10           entire state.  That is going very, very well.  

11           And it's going well because it is supported 

12           at all levels of government and throughout 

13           the legal community.  The Governor has lived 

14           up to his commitment, including in the 

15           Executive Budget that you're reviewing now.  

16           We support that request.  That's the fourth 

17           year of the planned five-year journey 

18           accounted for in the state's long-range 

19           fiscal plan to put the state for the very 

20           first time in a state of constitutional 

21           compliance with respect to its Gideon 

22           obligation.  And of course that's shorthand 

23           for its Sixth Amendment responsibility to 

24           provide the effective assistance of counsel.


                                                                   161

 1                  That's going well I think because our 

 2           office is functioning well.  We -- even in a 

 3           year in which we've had to shift from a lot 

 4           of in-person meetings to a lot of remote 

 5           meetings, we are continuing to work very 

 6           effectively with each and every county and 

 7           New York City.  We have the support of a 

 8           tremendous board, which supports us every 

 9           step of the way.  We've had support from the 

10           Governor, the Legislature, the 140 or 150 or 

11           so providers of mandated representation all 

12           throughout the state, all the counties, the 

13           State Bar, NYSAC, the Chief Defenders 

14           Association, the State Defenders Association.  

15           All of these entities are vital partners, and 

16           it's going very well.

17                  And I'll cite you quickly to the 

18           bullets that we put in on page 3 of our 

19           written testimony and the -- we selected four 

20           of the many reports we have filed over the 

21           years.  And Footnotes 2 and 3, with respect 

22           to the five counties under the lawsuit 

23           settlement, which is still extant -- we still 

24           meet every other month with the parties, the 


                                                                   162

 1           Governor's counsel and the plaintiffs' 

 2           counsel in the Hurrell-Harring lawsuit and in 

 3           the statewide effort, where we are, as I say, 

 4           entering Year 4 of the five years to get us 

 5           to a state of constitutional compliance.

 6                  There are a few things that we need in 

 7           order to sustain that progress.  We are -- as 

 8           is everyone -- under the state hiring freeze.  

 9           We need specifically right now our two data 

10           officers that we've been waiting on since 

11           last March.  We need NYSDA to be funded, 

12           because NYSDA provides the training and the 

13           computer backup, the data backup and the 

14           advice and support for lawyers.  And I know 

15           that Susan Bryant will be speaking much later 

16           to you, and we support her testimony.

17                  And we also need, with respect to the 

18           Article VII issue about the so-called virtual 

19           arraignment bill, we need no backing down 

20           from the requirement of in-person 

21           representation at arraignment, which is a 

22           core component of the Hurrell-Harring 

23           settlement and a core component of Executive 

24           Law 832(4).  


                                                                   163

 1                  Now, that's the good side of the 

 2           ledger.  I want to hold up for you and see if 

 3           I can -- yeah, it can be seen.  The Chief 

 4           Judge's Commission on Parental Legal 

 5           Representation Report in 2019 set out a 

 6           blueprint for parental representation reform 

 7           in New York.  And parental representation is 

 8           every bit as required under the state law and 

 9           the State Constitution as criminal defense 

10           representation is.  It simply has not, to 

11           date, accumulated sufficient political and 

12           fiscal support.  

13                  We are doing -- and I cite you to 

14           Appendix B at the end of our written 

15           testimony -- we're doing a lot.  We have 

16           already acted on the commission's 

17           recommendation to expand the eligibility for 

18           counsel standards to Family Court.  That was 

19           approved by our board in December, we're 

20           finalizing the actual document.  It will 

21           probably be out within a week or so.  

22                  We are taking to our board at the 

23           April meeting, in compliance with the 

24           commission's recommendation, caseload 


                                                                   164

 1           standards.  Now, those will have to be 

 2           subject to state funding, of course, because 

 3           when you reduce caseloads and you provide 

 4           lawyers with appropriate caseloads, it's a 

 5           significant fiscal lift.  And so those 

 6           caseload standards, we will ask them not to 

 7           be self-executing but to be contingent on 

 8           available state funding.  

 9                  In terms of what you ask for at a time 

10           of crisis, I guess I want to say that you 

11           can't waste a crisis.  Nor can the state wait 

12           any longer to fix the unconstitutional state 

13           of affairs with respect to parental 

14           representation.  We have to get started, and 

15           we have to get started now.

16                  And of course our request, our ask, if 

17           you will, is for the $5 million in aid to 

18           localities.  We spoke with you all about it 

19           last year, and it's certainly a high agency 

20           priority.  It is our fundamental priority 

21           this year.  

22                  But we also ask you, outside the 

23           budget, and as the legislative session goes 

24           along, take a very serious look at the 


                                                                   165

 1           parental commission's recommendations.  It's 

 2           not rocket science.  Control caseloads, 

 3           provide appropriate state funding, provide 

 4           appropriate state guidance and 

 5           infrastructure.  Do exactly what we are doing 

 6           on the criminal defense side.  We know how to 

 7           do it, we have done it, we are doing it.  

 8                  And so let's get started.  That's my 

 9           plea on parental representation, and let's 

10           not wait any longer.

11                  So that's my opening statement, and 

12           I'm happy and eager, in fact, to have a 

13           conversation and answer questions.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Senator Brad 

15           Hoylman, chair of -- oh, you know what, 

16           wrong.  Excuse me, Senator Hoylman.

17                  It's actually Senator Jamaal Bailey, 

18           as the chair of Codes.

19                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Thank you, 

20           Madam Chair.  And Director Leahy, Bill, good 

21           to e-see you today.

22                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Good to see you.

23                  SENATOR BAILEY:  As you often do with 

24           this testimony -- and your testimony 


                                                                   166

 1           generally answers questions that I was going 

 2           to ask.  Right?  You always do a good job of 

 3           that every year.  

 4                  But I guess I just wanted to double 

 5           down and also share my agreement with you 

 6           about the Article VII as related to the 

 7           arraignments and how it would negatively 

 8           affect the work that you've been trying to do 

 9           as related to the Hurrell-Harring settlement.  

10           And I just wanted to give you an opportunity 

11           to expound upon that if you wanted to.

12                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Sure.  You have my 

13           video, so you can see I'm a man of a certain 

14           age today.  But way back in the day, you 

15           know, I was a public defender in the trenches 

16           in and around Boston, and I can tell you 

17           there is no more meaningful stage of a 

18           criminal proceeding than the arraignment when 

19           the public defender, who no client has ever 

20           chosen, goes into the dock, talks to a 

21           complete stranger, is a complete stranger and 

22           goes out to appear before a judge to plead 

23           for that client's release.  

24                  And so, you know, virtual appearances 


                                                                   167

 1           in the cause of court efficiency are a 

 2           wonderful thing for unnecessary, unessential 

 3           appearances.  They should have no application 

 4           to the arraignment.  The work of a public 

 5           defender, the work to build the trust of the 

 6           client, the work to begin the process of 

 7           having confidential communication really be 

 8           meaningful communication, it starts there.  

 9           It can't be done remotely.  It has to be done 

10           in-person, person to person.  That's from 

11           personal experience.  And I was very 

12           gratified, during Judge Marks' testimony, at 

13           the number of members, Assemblypeople and 

14           Senators, who spoke to that.

15                  So -- and it's embedded in the 

16           settlement and in the law.  So we'd be 

17           rolling back -- at a time when we're talking 

18           about greater protection for minority 

19           defendants and people in minority communities 

20           and poor people, to tear away the ability to 

21           have a personal connection with your lawyer 

22           at arraignment?  It's unthinkable.  And it -- 

23           and there's nothing wrong, you know, with 

24           extending the 25 counties to the whole state:  


                                                                   168

 1           Just take arraignments out of it.  Take 

 2           arraignments out of it.  

 3                  And I commend to all of you the 

 4           written testimony and the future oral 

 5           testimony of Susan Bryant and Laurette Mulry 

 6           representing NYSDA and the Chief Defenders.  

 7           They'll be up much later, and they'll be 

 8           speaking to this.  I read their statements, 

 9           and they're excellent.

10                  Also, we have a statement -- I think 

11           we've sent it to you already, Senator, but 

12           I'll share it with all of the members -- back 

13           on December 2nd, our notification about 

14           virtual arraignments.  Because we've been 

15           hearing the drumbeat for a while:  Gee, 

16           that's so convenient, it's so easy, it works 

17           so well for everybody.  It doesn't work for 

18           due process, it doesn't work for effectuating 

19           the right to counsel, it cannot happen with 

20           respect to arraignments.

21                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Again -- thank you 

22           for that.  And again, I echo those same 

23           sentiments.

24                  You were speaking about, I guess, the 


                                                                   169

 1           rates for assigned counsel.  And I know that 

 2           we are in a fiscal crisis like we've never 

 3           seen before as result of this pandemic that 

 4           we've never seen before.  But I just wanted 

 5           you to touch on the importance of the 

 6           increase of the rates despite us not having 

 7           -- you know, where we may not have the fiscal 

 8           wherewithal to do it right now.

 9                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Yeah, you know, it's 

10           interesting Judge Marks mentioned 2003-2004.  

11           The very same year, 2004, back in 

12           Massachusetts, my agency sued the state 

13           because counsel rates hadn't been raised in 

14           about 20 years.  And we won a constitutional 

15           decision.  I was lead counsel on the case; 

16           I've shared that with some of the people 

17           here.

18                  And so last year we worked with the 

19           association that was seeking the increased 

20           rates, and we were pairing it -- it is one of 

21           the six recommendations of the Commission on 

22           Parental Legal Representation.  And as Judge 

23           Marks said, the Chief Judge has been out 

24           front about this.  Because sooner or later, 


                                                                   170

 1           lawyers just aren't going to be coming into 

 2           court at these rates because they're not 

 3           going to be able to make even a minimal 

 4           living on it.

 5                  So absolutely, it's -- there's a 

 6           reason why it's in there as one of the six 

 7           recommendations of the Commission on Parental 

 8           Legal Representation, and it's something that 

 9           is a component of a constitutional, as 

10           opposed to an unconstitutional system of 

11           providing mandated representation.

12                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Certainly.  And I 

13           guess the final question or the statement I 

14           would have about parental representation -- 

15           and we've spoken about this at length with 

16           you as well as my former dean, Angela Burton.  

17                  I guess the question is like yes, this 

18           is the -- obviously especially in times like 

19           these when people that can ill afford to 

20           not -- who cannot afford to have inadequate 

21           representation, however inartful that sounded 

22           as I stated it -- we need to make sure that 

23           there's some sort of oversight.  

24                  And I look forward to working with you 


                                                                   171

 1           so that we can have these -- so we can do 

 2           something like along the lines of what you 

 3           said.  If we have statewide representation 

 4           defense-wise, we should be having it on a 

 5           parental level.  And if you can, I guess, 

 6           expound upon that as my final question and 

 7           statement.

 8                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Absolutely.  And the 

 9           issues, you know, are exactly identical.  I 

10           made reference earlier to how the criminal 

11           justice system has its largest impact on poor 

12           and minority communities.  It is certainly 

13           exactly the same reality with respect to the 

14           child welfare system.

15                  And so it's really, you know, not 

16           simply a matter of constitutional law or 

17           noncompliance with statutory law, it's just 

18           plain socially destructive not to have 

19           effective representation in that arena where 

20           families are torn apart and decisions are 

21           made about, you know, whether the parent and 

22           the child stayed together.

23                  So -- and so the thing it takes, and 

24           what we've learned from the criminal defense 


                                                                   172

 1           reforms, yes, it takes a lot of money, it's 

 2           true.  But it takes more.  It takes two more 

 3           things.  

 4                  It takes an expertise from a state 

 5           entity, so that you don't have, like, you 

 6           know, let's say a wealthy county which 

 7           provides good representation and poorer 

 8           counties that do not.  

 9                  And the second thing it needs is the 

10           spirit of collaboration and cooperation, 

11           which I like to think has been a hallmark of 

12           our agency, and certainly should be under -- 

13           whether it would be ILS or whether it would 

14           be a new state agency.  I know the commission 

15           presented both alternatives.  That would be a 

16           legislative decision and a gubernatorial 

17           decision.

18                  But we certainly have a very strong 

19           interest in parental representation, as I 

20           think our actions have shown, and we'd love 

21           the opportunity to engage in discussions, 

22           both pre-budget and post-budget, with the 

23           Legislature about how to get that fixed.

24                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Yeah, I would 


                                                                   173

 1           certainly agree with you that we need --

 2                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  And I'm not ignoring 

 3           the Executive here.  I talk to the Executive 

 4           all the time, and they know how we feel about 

 5           that as well.

 6                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Sure.  And I would 

 7           certainly echo the sentiments that we need 

 8           some sort of uniformity in ensuring that 

 9           all -- everyone, from downstate to upstate 

10           and everywhere in between, has adequate 

11           representation, especially at a critical age.  

12           Especially when we are seeing on the news the 

13           younger people are being criminalized, the 

14           younger people -- and it's important to 

15           ensure that there is representation.  And not 

16           just representation, there are ways for 

17           diversion at that age.

18                  So I will yield the rest of my time, 

19           Director Leahy.  And again, as always, I 

20           thank you for your work and for your 

21           testimony.

22                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Thank you, Senator.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

24                  Assembly.


                                                                   174

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to our 

 2           Codes chair, Assemblyman Dinowitz.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Good -- not 

 4           morning, good afternoon.  How are you?

 5                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Good afternoon, 

 6           Chair.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  So I'm glad the 

 8           issue of virtual arraignments was raised.  I 

 9           have concerns, a number of my colleagues have 

10           concerns as well.  And I think it's good that 

11           we can do some things virtually, save time, 

12           save travel, save money.  But we do have a 

13           tremendous concern on that issue.

14                  And I think as we get more and more 

15           used to doing things like we are today, it 

16           becomes easier to do other things the same 

17           way, virtually, and I'm afraid ultimately 

18           that is going to infringe upon the rights of 

19           a lot of people.  So it's really a big 

20           concern, and I think we have to address it.  

21           I think we have to look at that in terms of 

22           the proposal by the Governor on virtual 

23           arraignments.

24                  But I wanted to ask you about 


                                                                   175

 1           immigration proceedings.  There's a huge need 

 2           for representation in immigration 

 3           proceedings, especially when we're dealing 

 4           with possible deportation.  Can you describe 

 5           how your office has been involved in 

 6           establishing and improving representation in 

 7           immigration-related proceedings for persons 

 8           who are unable to afford counsel?  Which I 

 9           imagine is a very significant percentage of 

10           the people involved in such proceedings.

11                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Yes.  Of course.

12                  For starters, you know, at the moment 

13           there is not a mandated statutory or 

14           constitutional right to representation in 

15           these hearings.  I know New York has done a 

16           lot to provide representation through grants 

17           administered, I think, through the Department 

18           of State.  

19                  But what our role in that is we -- we 

20           are very proud that under our office, and 

21           with the support of the Legislature, we have 

22           got the first -- we are the -- New York is 

23           the first state, I believe still the only 

24           state that has a statewide network of 


                                                                   176

 1           regional immigration assistance centers.  And 

 2           what those centers do, under grants that we 

 3           administer, is they ensure that every lawyer 

 4           representing every client in the state -- 

 5           publicly funded lawyer in the State of 

 6           New York -- is providing proper advice with 

 7           respect to the immigration consequences of 

 8           criminal and Family Court proceedings.

 9                  We've just entered into our second 

10           three-year set of contracts.  We've got six 

11           offices all around the state.  They have a 

12           network, they work with one another on 

13           listservs.  

14                  And so while we don't provide or don't 

15           fund direct representation, we do fund 

16           support that makes sure that lawyers aren't 

17           inadvertently making mistakes that disserve 

18           their clients' interest with respect to 

19           immigration consequences.

20                  If I could go back to your first 

21           reference to virtual arraignments also, 

22           Chair, there's -- because it reminded me that 

23           there is a -- there is a measure that really 

24           should be undertaken, and that is the 


                                                                   177

 1           existing statute that provides for 

 2           centralized arraignments.  One of the big 

 3           problems in upstate New York, as we all know, 

 4           is the distance, the sheer number of courts 

 5           and the distance, the physical distance 

 6           between courts.  

 7                  And a number of counties, under the 

 8           legislation that was put into place about 

 9           four or five years ago -- that OCA, with the 

10           support of the counties, with the support of 

11           my office, have been creating these 

12           centralized arraignments.  And you heard 

13           Judge Marks talk about, you know, no one 

14           should wait more than 24 hours.  Well, the 

15           way these courts are operating, no one waits 

16           more than 12 hours, because they have a 

17           morning session and an evening session.  I 

18           think there are about 15 to 20 counties now 

19           that already have these courts up and 

20           running.  

21                  There would have been more but for the 

22           pandemic.  A lot of plans got waylaid and 

23           delayed.

24                  So that's really the way to go in 


                                                                   178

 1           terms of the future of arraignments in the 

 2           State of New York.  They shouldn't be all 

 3           over 12 or 1300 village courts all over, you 

 4           know, on every highway and byway.  They 

 5           should be in these centralized arraignment 

 6           settings, and they should be in person, with 

 7           in-person representation.  That's the 

 8           ultimate solution.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  As a result of 

10           the pandemic, I believe there must be a huge 

11           backlog everywhere on everything.  Could you 

12           just give your feeling on how we can sort of 

13           dig out from all of that and how long it 

14           might take?

15                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Well, we -- yes.  We 

16           stayed true -- and I have to repeat my credit 

17           to the Executive and to the Governor for 

18           staying true in this budget.  We stayed true 

19           to the long-term goal.  Because should this 

20           funding continue to flow as it has continued 

21           to flow, we know that we will be able to 

22           assist the providers and the counties in 

23           weathering all the storms.

24                  And you're right, there is going to be 


                                                                   179

 1           a backflow of -- particularly in the upstate, 

 2           the town or village courts.  A lot of them 

 3           closed down for a very long time, some of 

 4           them still.  Some of them reopening and then 

 5           reclosing again.  And the discovery.  Not 

 6           much attention has been paid today to the 

 7           impact of the defense of the discovery.  The 

 8           district attorney has the responsibility to 

 9           assemble the data; it's voluminous -- videos, 

10           you know, videocams and everything.  But then 

11           the defense gets it and they have to analyze 

12           it all.  So a tremendous additional burden, 

13           both in technology and in attorney and staff 

14           time.

15                  And as long as we stay true to the 

16           reforms that have been already put into 

17           statute and have already been funded, 

18           consistently, year to year -- including 

19           during this pandemic -- we will stay on 

20           course and we will be able to continue to 

21           make the public defense system in New York 

22           something to be proud of instead of something 

23           to be embarrassed about, as it was for so 

24           long.


                                                                   180

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Okay, thank you 

 2           very much.  That's all I have.

 3                  DIRECTOR LEAHY:  Thank you.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 5                  Any other members have --

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  No Assembly.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  All right.  Then 

 8           we're going to thank Mr. Leahy for being here 

 9           with us today, and we are going to move along 

10           to Patrick Murphy, New York State Division of 

11           Homeland Security and Emergency Services.

12                  And the two lead questioners will be 

13           Senator Brooks and Assemblymember Zebrowski.

14                  Good afternoon.

15                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Good 

16           afternoon.  So jump right in?

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Please.  Yes, 

18           please.

19                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  All right.  

20           So really brief opening comments here on the 

21           front side.  

22                  But first of all, good afternoon to 

23           everyone.  Thanks, Chairwoman Krueger, 

24           Chairwoman Weinstein, and the distinguished 


                                                                   181

 1           members of the joint committee.

 2                  I'm Pat Murphy, commissioner of 

 3           Homeland Security and Emergency Services.  

 4           I'm proud to share what the agency has been 

 5           working on and will provide an overview of 

 6           the Executive Budget as it relates to this 

 7           work that's been done.

 8                  The staff at the Division of Homeland 

 9           Security and Emergency Services have worked 

10           tirelessly over the past year to not only 

11           fulfill our day-to-day responsibilities but 

12           also assist the state's COVID-19 response and 

13           recovery efforts.  

14                  The Executive Budget provides the 

15           resources the division needs to accomplish 

16           our mission and enhance public safety, 

17           including the addition of COVID-related 

18           operations.

19                  The total agency appropriation in the 

20           Executive Budget is 4.97 billion, which 

21           includes a 3.4 billion increase from last 

22           year.  This increase reflects additional 

23           appropriation authority to allow the division 

24           to administer federal aid to state agencies, 


                                                                   182

 1           local and county governments and eligible 

 2           non-profit organizations.  

 3                  This federal aid is available as a 

 4           result of the Governor's March 2020 request 

 5           for the first-ever Major Disaster Declaration 

 6           for a public health emergency, which was 

 7           promptly granted by the federal government.  

 8           This declaration allowed for the construction 

 9           of alternative care facilities, including the 

10           Javits Medical Center, and provides 

11           reimbursement for many of the state's 

12           response operations, including COVID testing 

13           and vaccination sites.  

14                  The division partnered closely with 

15           the Division of Budget and continues to work 

16           with our federal partners to ensure New York 

17           receives reimbursement for all eligible 

18           activities.  

19                  Throughout the Governor's response to 

20           the pandemic, the division has helped 

21           coordinate efforts to address numerous 

22           challenges presented by the public health 

23           crisis.  The state's Emergency Operation 

24           Center has been activated since last February 


                                                                   183

 1           to support the state's response and recovery 

 2           efforts.  The division staff supported the 

 3           state's COVID testing and mass vaccination 

 4           sites, serving in leadership, safety, and 

 5           logistics roles.  

 6                  Additionally, division staff work with 

 7           our partners in the National Guard and have 

 8           undertaken the task of procuring and 

 9           assembling test kits, which in turn have been 

10           distributed to state test sites, local 

11           governments and school districts.  The 

12           division also works with the National Guard 

13           to oversee the logistics for the receipt, 

14           storage and distribution of personal 

15           protective equipment and other resources 

16           needed to combat the pandemic.  

17                  Furthermore, division staff assisted 

18           other agencies to perform critical response 

19           functions, including the New York State 

20           Department of Labor's unemployment insurance 

21           mission, the Department of Health's call 

22           center mission and, most recently, the 

23           vaccination hotline. I'm proud of this 

24           service and would like to note over 90 


                                                                   184

 1           percent of the division’s staff were directly 

 2           engaged in COVID missions.  

 3                  The division's Office of Fire 

 4           Prevention and Control was integral to the 

 5           state's COVID response efforts.  Office of 

 6           Fire Prevention and Control staff have served 

 7           at field hospitals, state testing and 

 8           vaccination sites, as well as in the State 

 9           Liquor Authority's safety missions and the 

10           Department of Health's pilot project for the 

11           Bills -- opening the Bills game to 

12           spectators.  The Office of Fire Prevention 

13           and Control ensured the state's new efforts 

14           were not only efficient, but also safe for 

15           all involved.  

16                  While COVID has been the main focus of 

17           the division over this past year, we 

18           continued to execute our core missions, as 

19           discussed in our more thorough submitted 

20           testimony.  It is not possible to cover all 

21           the great work the division has done during 

22           my testimony, but I appreciate the 

23           opportunity to appear before you today to 

24           further discuss the agency's efforts to 


                                                                   185

 1           maintain daily operations while serving the 

 2           state's COVID-19 response.

 3                  I look forward to the continued 

 4           partnership with you and others, and hope to 

 5           answer any questions you have.  And I do 

 6           appreciate being with you today.  

 7                  Thank you.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 9           much.  And you did it in five minutes, so you 

10           get extra points from us today also.  Thank 

11           you very much, Commissioner.

12                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  All right, 

13           thank you.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  The first 

15           questioner I believe will be Senator John 

16           Brooks.  Are you here, John?

17                  THE MODERATOR:  I'm asking him to 

18           unmute.

19                  SENATOR BROOKS:  We were having some 

20           trouble getting -- the video's not on, but 

21           with the --

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Very good.

23                  SENATOR BROOKS:  Thank you, Chairman, 

24           and good afternoon, Commissioner.


                                                                   186

 1                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Hi, 

 2           Senator.

 3                  SENATOR BROOKS:  Hope it's quiet, not 

 4           much to do.

 5                  (Laughter.)

 6                  SENATOR BROOKS:  I'll tell you.

 7                  I got a couple of questions.  Some of 

 8           the questions from a homeland security issue 

 9           I'm going to save for our briefing when we do 

10           that so that we can get a little more deeper 

11           discussion.

12                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Sure.

13                  SENATOR BROOKS:  Obviously this past 

14           year -- I mean, every playing field you're 

15           on, something was happening.  And I think you 

16           did a great job.  But I'm curious to 

17           understand how much assistance did you get or 

18           how much interference did you get from the 

19           federal government as the pandemic was 

20           beginning to take shape?  

21                  And to my understanding in the past, 

22           the management of PPE and other things has 

23           always been done more through the federal 

24           government.  So the fact that suddenly you 


                                                                   187

 1           had to secure all of this equipment -- how 

 2           much assistance did you get from the federal 

 3           government, how much direction did you get 

 4           from the federal government?

 5                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Right.  So 

 6           I think, to begin with, FEMA and the pieces 

 7           of the federal government that we've worked 

 8           with -- Health & Human Services, along with 

 9           CDC -- have been pretty good partners for us 

10           at our level in terms of providing additional 

11           guidance where needed, and then also some 

12           resourcing that was limited on the front 

13           side.

14                  I think because New York was kind of 

15           at the epicenter on the beginning of the 

16           pandemic, we received additional resources 

17           that other states may not have.  We pressed 

18           hard to get resources that became very 

19           limited quickly, and then transitioned fairly 

20           fast over to procuring what we could because 

21           of the intensity of the infections and the 

22           rise in infections that we had over time.

23                  So we did not have all the resources 

24           that we really wanted on the -- in the early 


                                                                   188

 1           days of this, back in February and March, 

 2           April of last year, but quickly found ways to 

 3           start to increase those supplies.  But by no 

 4           means were we able to provide our partners at 

 5           the county level and municipality level the 

 6           resources that they would have liked to have 

 7           from the front.

 8                  But now we're in much better shape 

 9           today.

10                  SENATOR BROOKS:  Okay, that is good to 

11           hear.  And certainly as additional vaccines 

12           are -- come into play, that's an assist too.  

13           But of course we are seeing the virus move in 

14           a number of directions, so there's a lot 

15           there.

16                  You know, as -- and last year we had a 

17           presidential campaign where there was a great 

18           deal of concern on what was happening in the 

19           internet and cyber-related issues.  Can you 

20           give us your impression of where we are right 

21           now as a state, how secure are we?  And did 

22           you see any activity on the internet that was 

23           directed towards our state?

24                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So if -- 


                                                                   189

 1           you're asking specifically towards the 

 2           election, sir?  Or ransomware that is being 

 3           initiated across a larger audience?  Was it 

 4           specifically to the election?

 5                  SENATOR BROOKS:  The election and as 

 6           we led up to the events in January that the 

 7           Congress is meeting on now.  How aware were 

 8           you of activity that involved citizens of 

 9           this state?

10                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So to the 

11           extent of knowing individuals or others that 

12           would have caused harm or damage to our 

13           systems or to other infrastructure, not 

14           specific to the individuals.  

15                  To the more overall perspective on 

16           where we were with elections and election 

17           security, there was a full-out state effort, 

18           multiple agencies aligned with the Board of 

19           Elections and ITS, our team, our cyber team 

20           involved in that as well, monitoring systems.  

21           And from our perspective, at no time was the 

22           state in jeopardy from having a fair and full 

23           election.

24                  The activities that followed that 


                                                                   190

 1           later, even, in D.C., the law enforcement 

 2           agencies that we work with, that we 

 3           collaborate with, were very swift in action 

 4           where they had known targets and took action 

 5           on those.

 6                  And so I feel fairly comfortable at 

 7           this point where we are with the knowledge of 

 8           those who would cause us harm and the action 

 9           taken.

10                  SENATOR BROOKS:  Okay, good.

11                  I think some of that stuff when we get 

12           together, maybe we want to talk a little bit 

13           more about what you think might need to be 

14           done yet and, you know, where we stand in 

15           terms of, you know, what's coming from the 

16           homeland as opposed to overseas.

17                  With regards to the pandemic, from 

18           three rows back, would it be fair to say that 

19           the national leadership actually was coming 

20           from New York State as this rolled out, under 

21           the direction of how this pandemic was being 

22           responded to and mitigated in terms of masks 

23           and social distancing?  We were at the front 

24           end, driving that bus, as opposed to getting 


                                                                   191

 1           direction from Washington?

 2                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  I would 

 3           say yes to your question, sir.  And really in 

 4           terms of -- as I talk to my counterparts 

 5           around the country, having a position that's 

 6           uniformly applied across areas where it's 

 7           needed was a benefit to -- and an envied 

 8           position by many of those that I work with in 

 9           other states.  Clear guidance, decisions, 

10           timely decisions are important in trying to 

11           manage the pandemic.  

12                  And I think to your point, yes, I 

13           think the state showed very well, as we look 

14           at -- in comparison to others.

15                  SENATOR BROOKS:  With the change of 

16           administration, is the communications you 

17           receive now, and the direction, better than 

18           it was before?

19                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Well, I 

20           think -- you know, what I would say is that 

21           most of my communications are at the FEMA 

22           level, the FEMA administrator at the time and 

23           the current acting administrator in Region 2.  

24           For -- in my lane, I would say that our 


                                                                   192

 1           communications were good across the board.  

 2           The ability to respond to our requests I 

 3           think maybe were a little more restricted at 

 4           one point, but the communications were open 

 5           -- the administrator, Pete Gaynor, was -- had 

 6           no problem calling me and I had no problem 

 7           calling him in terms of resourcing or 

 8           discussing the state's needs.

 9                  SENATOR BROOKS:  Okay, good.

10                  Just one last question.  I know from 

11           my background, obviously we develop a lot of 

12           plans for different events, from hurricanes 

13           to the rest.  I'll assume that we had a 

14           pandemic plan in place.  How dramatically did 

15           you have to change that?

16                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Well, 

17           there was a plan in place.  And much of that 

18           revolved around county activity and support 

19           from communities to be able to execute on the 

20           plan.

21                  The plan was not necessarily resourced 

22           at the local level to the degree that it 

23           could have been.  We know that given the 

24           magnitude of the event that we went through, 


                                                                   193

 1           the federal government wasn't prepared to be 

 2           able to support us as well, to the degree 

 3           that we needed that support.

 4                  So did -- to -- did we have to deviate 

 5           from the plan?  Absolutely.  Nobody 

 6           envisioned, when we wrote that plan, that 

 7           every corner of the state would be affected 

 8           to the degree it is.  And over a period of 

 9           time, as it's rolled out, to literally a year 

10           ago when we stood up the Operations Center.

11                  SENATOR BROOKS:  Thank you.  I just -- 

12           I want to congratulate you for what you and 

13           your people did.  It was almost an impossible 

14           situation.  And as much as people could have 

15           envisioned what a pandemic was going to do, 

16           this one was way beyond anybody's practical 

17           thinking.  

18                  So I think you've done a great job.  I 

19           look forward to meeting with you next month 

20           on some of the other issues.  But I just want 

21           to say thank you very much.  And I got done 

22           early this time, so I yield my seven seconds 

23           back.  Thank you.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  


                                                                   194

 1                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Thank you, 

 2           Senator Brooks.  Thanks for your partnership 

 3           all the time.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 5                  Assemblymember?

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes.  

 7           Assemblyman Zebrowski is debating a bill, so 

 8           we'll go to Assemblyman Byrne first, three 

 9           minutes.  Thank you.  

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN BYRNE:  Mr. Commissioner, 

11           I've just got to --

12                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Hello, 

13           sir.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN BYRNE:  I am dealing with 

15           two different laptops, for session and for 

16           this budget hearing.  

17                  So thank you, appreciate your time and 

18           your testimony.

19                  I really have just one specific 

20           question.  A couple of years ago, actually, 

21           my Senator that represents portions of Putnam 

22           and Westchester and I wrote to the Governor's 

23           office about the Securing Communities Against 

24           Hate Crimes Grant Program.  We were 


                                                                   195

 1           advocating that it could be expanded.  It was 

 2           particularly for houses of worship, in light 

 3           of what we've seen across the country and the 

 4           globe, but also right here in New York to 

 5           some extent.  

 6                  And I was encouraged that -- I think 

 7           it was last year or the year prior, there was 

 8           an expansion not only with increased funding, 

 9           but it also added eligibility for nonprofit 

10           community centers.  

11                  And I was just looking for some 

12           clarification as to would that include houses 

13           of worship.  And is that something that the 

14           state and the agency are looking to make sure 

15           is a part of that program?

16                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So the 

17           answer is -- the easy answer to your question 

18           is so that the aperture has opened up so that 

19           there are other applicants that can apply for 

20           those grants.  

21                  With that open aperture, there were 

22           literally, in the last round of applications, 

23           over double the number that applied.  We were 

24           over 350 applications that we continue to 


                                                                   196

 1           sort through and look at the needs.  And so 

 2           it's -- we adhere to whatever the legislation 

 3           is that provides that funding, and we 

 4           continue to move out on it.

 5                  So I think your advocacy has expanded 

 6           that eligible pool, and I think we're in a 

 7           good place right now.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN BYRNE:  Thank you.  I 

 9           bring that up because I know there's been 

10           --in the past I've had many conversations 

11           with some of the local temples in my 

12           district, mainly in Putnam County.  And 

13           Westchester and New York City are able to 

14           access some federal funds and support, but 

15           Putnam was ineligible because the proximity 

16           to the urban community wasn't close enough.

17                  However, some of the information that 

18           was missed in the federal program was many of 

19           the members of their congregation were from 

20           Westchester, they just happened to be located 

21           in Putnam.  

22                  So the state program offered them an 

23           alternative mechanism to try to get support 

24           and funding for things like cameras when 


                                                                   197

 1           there's been a rise of, you know, antisemitic 

 2           graffiti or there's accusations.  So I wanted 

 3           to make sure that houses of worship were 

 4           included and continue to be viewed.  

 5                  So thank you, Mr. Commissioner.  I 

 6           appreciate your time and your testimony this 

 7           afternoon.

 8                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Thank you, 

 9           sir.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

11                  Back to the Senate.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

13                  Our next questioner will be Senator 

14           Todd Kaminsky.

15                  SENATOR KAMINSKY:  Thank you so much.  

16           Good afternoon, Commissioner.  Thank you, 

17           Senator Krueger.

18                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  

19           (Inaudible.)

20                  SENATOR KAMINSKY:  Commissioner, with 

21           respect to cybersecurity and preventing 

22           problems, so far in my district alone I've 

23           had a Rockville Centre School District being 

24           taken ransom, where payment had to be made 


                                                                   198

 1           for data recovery, and then the City of Long 

 2           Beach just had a hacking incident where, 

 3           thank God, there was no ransom, but their 

 4           systems were taken down for over a week.  You 

 5           couldn't even call into City Hall. 

 6                  And my question is, is New York going 

 7           to have some overall, over-arcing vision as 

 8           to how to deal with cybersecurity on a local 

 9           level?  Is there some audit being done of our 

10           local municipalities or villages or schools?  

11           Are there tools to give them resources to 

12           help them beef up?

13                  You know, normally when the state 

14           wants to undertake an initiative, let's say 

15           making its electric fleet -- its buses become 

16           electric, it will put money up for studies, 

17           it will award you incentives if you do well.  

18           Is there an over-arcing program to help our 

19           local institutions, especially those that are 

20           in control of large amounts of money, 

21           protected from cyber hacking?

22                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So 

23           currently we have a number of things that 

24           we're doing with the area, whether it be in 


                                                                   199

 1           school districts or in communities or even 

 2           those that touch the state network, to be 

 3           able to secure our own -- our infrastructure.  

 4                  With those things come a number of 

 5           opportunities.  We do assessments.  With the 

 6           limited staff that we have, we're not able to 

 7           get to 3,000 different districts, but we are 

 8           able to work with those that have needs.  We 

 9           do education.  In your district, I believe -- 

10           and through some of your advocacy we've 

11           reached out to a number of organizations and 

12           provided assistance in the way of best 

13           practices, how to go about securing the 

14           network using other partners, that type of 

15           thing.

16                  So that assistance and advice have 

17           been the keys to the work that we've done.  

18           We have started to move towards and used some 

19           federal dollars as well to be able to do some 

20           cyber grants as we move forward.  In the 

21           school districts, we still rely heavily on 

22           State Education to manage that piece of it.  

23           But when it comes to the local 

24           municipalities, even nonprofits that you 


                                                                   200

 1           would work with that, if requested, we would 

 2           be able to reach out to them and support them 

 3           as well.

 4                  SENATOR KAMINSKY:  All right, thanks, 

 5           Commissioner.  Let me just get one question 

 6           in before I go.  And I'd love to continue to 

 7           work with you to beef that up.

 8                  But on the Securing Communities 

 9           Against Hate, hoping you could expand it for 

10           cyber as well.  We had a private religious 

11           institution hacked, awful antisemitic stuff 

12           on there.  They would love to take some of 

13           that funding and, instead of putting physical 

14           gates or cameras in some cases, be able to 

15           put in some cyber solutions as well, but 

16           right now that's ineligible.

17                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Yeah.  And 

18           so just a quick answer to your question, sir, 

19           would be as -- whatever the legislation is 

20           that guides those hate crime grants, we will 

21           follow that.  And if it designates monies for 

22           cyber, then we would be more than happy to 

23           work with those institutions to do that.

24                  SENATOR KAMINSKY:  All right, I will 


                                                                   201

 1           get to working on that.

 2                  Thank you, Senator Krueger.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 4                  Assembly.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes, we go to 

 6           Assemblyman Walczyk, three minutes.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Commissioner, 

 8           thanks so much for taking the time.

 9                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  

10           (Inaudible.)

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Wonderful to see 

12           you once again.

13                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Yes, sir.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Obviously a lot 

15           of the questions in this hearing for you so 

16           far today have been fixed on the pandemic, 

17           and I feel like our executive branch's nose 

18           sometimes is just fixed solely on the 

19           COVID-19 pandemic.  You said 90 percent of 

20           your staff has been fully dedicated to this.  

21                  That's a little bit of a concern to 

22           me.  I know that that's a huge focus right 

23           now and a public health concern moving 

24           forward, but there's other things going on as 


                                                                   202

 1           well.  So I'm just going to -- this question 

 2           is big, very important to me, should be 

 3           important to everyone globally and also 

 4           especially to everyone in this -- in these 

 5           two legislative bodies.  

 6                  Back in 2013 there was a train 

 7           derailment in Quebec.  That resulted in an 

 8           executive order by this Governor in 2014 that 

 9           directed your department to prepare for train 

10           derailments, work with locals on emergency 

11           preparedness, and get ready for what we knew 

12           was going to be more oil carried by rail 

13           freight coming out of, you know, the upper 

14           United States and especially out of Canada.

15                  Now that we see the XL Pipeline has 

16           been cancelled by the federal government, we 

17           anticipate that more oil once again will be 

18           pushed onto freight rail, onto ships that go 

19           through the St. Lawrence Seaway and other 

20           areas, and possibly even -- hearing from some 

21           Canadians -- onto trucks. 

22                  So I was just wondering if you -- does 

23           this budget provide for any additional funds 

24           for you to be able to deal with that possible 


                                                                   203

 1           future disaster, and can you talk a little 

 2           bit about what your department is doing and 

 3           will do to get prepared for that?

 4                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So I think 

 5           the first thing is, you know, in our 

 6           responsibilities as it relates to 

 7           hazardous -- {Zoom interruption} -- hazardous 

 8           material handling and response to, we 

 9           continue to work with our partners with the 

10           Office of Fire Prevention and Control and 

11           Emergency Management staff to best address 

12           the needs of the local governments, the 

13           counties where these trains and hazardous 

14           material would be shipped through.

15                  And so we put in place things like 

16           firefighting equipment that would be used in 

17           a hazardous material handling situation.  

18           We've continued to do training -- not as much 

19           in-person right now because of the pandemic, 

20           but we'll get back to it -- to address that.

21                  But the specifics of our involvement 

22           beyond that, other than in consultation with 

23           the communities and those that are making 

24           decisions is pretty much limited to that at 


                                                                   204

 1           this point.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Commissioner, 

 3           are there adequate resources for your 

 4           department in this budget to be able to 

 5           handle an oil spill on the St. Lawrence 

 6           River, for example?

 7                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Okay, so 

 8           the oil spill itself, where we would respond 

 9           -- we are not responsible for the oil spill 

10           piece of that.  That would be Environmental 

11           Conservation and the other partners that 

12           would actually respond to the spill itself.

13                  So we will organize agencies to be 

14           able to apply to it.  That is our mission.  

15           But I would defer to those that actually have 

16           responsibility.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Thanks, 

18           Commissioner.

19                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Thank you, 

20           sir.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

22                  To the Senate.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

24                  Next, Senator Diane Savino.


                                                                   205

 1                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you, 

 2           Senator Krueger.

 3                  Commissioner, it's good to see you 

 4           again.

 5                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Thank you.

 6                  SENATOR SAVINO:  I want to go back to 

 7           the thread that Senator Kaminsky started, but 

 8           actually broaden it out a little.

 9                  You know, as you know, under your 

10           portfolio -- in your portfolio is the issue 

11           of cybersecurity.  And quite honestly, I 

12           don't think that you have enough authority 

13           across the state.  We have seen because so 

14           much of cybersecurity issues are dealt with 

15           at the local level by local governments, 

16           we're seeing breaches everywhere.

17                  Just last week the Albany County 

18           District Attorney announced that many of the 

19           cases that are pending before him may have to 

20           be dismissed because of a hack in the Albany 

21           County DA's office.  That threatens criminal 

22           justice investigations.

23                  Yesterday the New York Times reported 

24           an incredibly dangerous situation in Florida 


                                                                   206

 1           where hackers were able to access a water 

 2           treatment plant and potentially poison the 

 3           water down there.

 4                  So we're seeing all of these things 

 5           happening in other states, in our counties, 

 6           in our school districts, in our healthcare 

 7           centers, and one of the big threads along 

 8           there is we allow localities -- towns and 

 9           villages -- to deal with the purchase of 

10           software and handle their own cybersecurity 

11           purchases on their own.

12                  I think, and you and I have had this 

13           conversation, this is the opposite way to go, 

14           particularly in this time.  So I would say 

15           that we need to now open up this conversation 

16           about right-sizing the way this state 

17           addresses issues of cybersecurity and 

18           technology purchases and not allow localities 

19           to handle this, but to allow it to be driven 

20           from the state down, because the risks are 

21           far too high.

22                  Would you agree with that?

23                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So one of 

24           the things that we've talked about -- and 


                                                                   207

 1           thanks for continuing the conversation, I 

 2           know you're passionate about this -- is that 

 3           to be able to -- in contracts, for example, 

 4           to be able to dictate in a contract that 

 5           would be worked either through Office of 

 6           General Services or some other mechanism that 

 7           required some level of cybersecurity or the 

 8           awareness or implementation of those kinds of 

 9           efforts, would be something that we would 

10           advocate for, to be able to do it at a more 

11           broad level. 

12                  I think providing guidance, as we have 

13           for other things that is more directive in 

14           nature, is okay, but I will leave that up to 

15           the legislators --

16                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Not to interrupt you, 

17           but guidance doesn't seem to be working, 

18           because I think the problem is the localities 

19           are forced to make decisions based upon 

20           financial reasons, as opposed to the best 

21           practices.  

22                  And I think it's time for the 

23           Legislature to kind of get involved in this 

24           and -- because the risks are far too high.  


                                                                   208

 1           Whether it's ransomware attacks on school 

 2           districts, whether it's, you know, invading 

 3           the district attorney's office and 

 4           threatening the people's justice, or 

 5           potentially poisoning our water supply -- or 

 6           our election systems -- we can no longer 

 7           stand by and allow towns and villages to 

 8           purchase equipment at the lowest responsible 

 9           bidder because that's what the law requires 

10           them to do, potentially creating all sorts of 

11           risks to the population.

12                  So thank you for the work you're 

13           doing, and I look forward to working with you 

14           in the future on this.

15                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Thanks for 

16           your partnership, Senator.

17                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

19                  Assembly.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

21           Assemblyman Reilly.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Thank you, 

23           Madam Chair.  

24                  Good afternoon, Commissioner.


                                                                   209

 1                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Hello, 

 2           sir.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  {Inaudible.}  

 4           Great to see you again. 

 5                  I have a couple of questions, too 

 6           time-consuming for me.

 7                  In the Executive proposal there's a 

 8           decrease of $600,000 to the Red Cross for 

 9           their response preparedness.  Do -- is -- do 

10           you think that will have a negative impact on 

11           being able to get volunteers for our blood 

12           supply?  Because just recently I know that 

13           there was a push, especially in downstate, if 

14           you could touch on that.

15                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Sure.

16                  And so, you know, at our agency we 

17           just had the Red Cross in drawing blood here 

18           about two weeks ago.  And I was able to 

19           provide a donation myself.

20                  So -- but to get to the point about 

21           the money to begin with, the Executive Budget 

22           this year is exactly the same as it was last 

23           year, and the add-on dollars that you see 

24           that look different were the add-on dollars 


                                                                   210

 1           from the Legislature to increase that number.  

 2           And so the Executive Budget itself, in the 

 3           going-in position, is exactly what it was a 

 4           year ago. 

 5                  To your point about will it affect the 

 6           Red Cross's ability to draw blood, get 

 7           critical services, Red Cross does a great 

 8           job.  And they are our absolute partners.  We 

 9           keep a liaison in our Operations Center with 

10           us routinely because of their partnership.  

11           And I think it's the best thing for New York 

12           to have a strong Red Cross in our camp.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Okay.  The second 

14           question I had is in relation to the 

15           Interoperable Communications Program.  Can 

16           you tell me what that money is going to fund?  

17           If you can just give us just a brief 

18           overview, and maybe just one specific program 

19           that you might know of.

20                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So it 

21           really works with a couple of different 

22           areas.  

23                  First of all, upgrades to radios and 

24           communication networks.  Our goal is to more 


                                                                   211

 1           regionalize that effort so that we have 

 2           interoperability across regions of the state.  

 3           I think we've made great strides in the 

 4           activity up to this point.  

 5                  But it could be radio upgrades, it 

 6           could be system upgrades, it can be towers 

 7           that are needed in certain areas depending on 

 8           how that county or region has applied for 

 9           those grants.  But those are the big things 

10           right now.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Commissioner, 

12           I've only got 10 seconds left, but I just 

13           wanted to ask, is there any exclusions in 

14           regards to applying for the grant, in the 

15           population, that would prohibit maybe 

16           New York City from obtaining those grant 

17           funds?

18                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So we 

19           focus on -- we focus on those that have the 

20           least amount of funding to begin with, or the 

21           more challenged funding areas.  And that's 

22           why we see primarily those grant dollars 

23           going up in Central New York or up in 

24           St. Lawrence Country, in those areas.


                                                                   212

 1                  But it's not specifically excluding 

 2           anybody, it's really based on the resources 

 3           available.  Yes, sir.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Thank you.  Thank 

 5           you, Madam Chairs.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 7                  Okay, I have a couple of brief 

 8           questions for you, Commissioner.

 9                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Yes, 

10           ma'am.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

12                  So it was asked before, but I'm a 

13           little confused.  So the Governor put another 

14           $4 billion of federal money into homeland 

15           security.  That's from the December money 

16           from the federal government, is that correct, 

17           or is that from earlier money?

18                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  No, so -- 

19           so what I was trying to represent, and maybe 

20           I just didn't state it very well, was that we 

21           now have the appropriations authority so that 

22           as we receive the federal dollars for the -- 

23           for reimbursement for funding to the 

24           localities to be able to execute under this 


                                                                   213

 1           pandemic -- so we have that expanded 

 2           authority to receive and distribute those 

 3           dollars, is really where we're at with that.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  So when the 

 5           Governor makes his speeches and talks about 

 6           $6 billion from the feds would be the worst, 

 7           $15 billion from the feds would be the best, 

 8           he means then $4 billion of it will be 

 9           sitting in your department if he gets it.

10                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So I can't 

11           -- I don't -- I'm not familiar enough with 

12           the request from the Governor.  I know the 

13           numbers, because I've heard them.  But really 

14           what we're looking at is are those projects 

15           that the municipalities or the jurisdictions 

16           will apply for those grant dollars, the 

17           federal government will come in and reimburse 

18           for those activities.  It could be -- you 

19           know, if it's vaccines, for example, and it's 

20           100 percent reimbursable for those expenses 

21           associated with the vaccine, well, that money 

22           would be pulled into that account and then 

23           redistributed.  And that's what that 

24           authority is.


                                                                   214

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  So you do have a 

 2           master list of what kinds of things this 

 3           money could be spent on?

 4                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So 

 5           whatever the eligible criteria is for those 

 6           as -- is right.  I'm -- if I understand your 

 7           question right, we think that that number 

 8           gives us the latitude to work within the 

 9           disasters that we currently have for New 

10           York.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I think my 

12           confusion is we in the Legislature tend to 

13           think of Aid to Localities as a category of 

14           budget spending that actually isn't related 

15           to emergencies.  It's how we pay for all 

16           kinds of things in our counties and towns and 

17           cities.  So it's a little confusing to see $4 

18           billion of what we think of as oh, yeah, we 

19           do owe our Aid to Localities a lot of money.  

20                  But that's not what this would be 

21           about.  This is --

22                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  No.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  -- new categories 

24           that fit into approved federal activities.


                                                                   215

 1                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Correct.  

 2           So it's -- it's monies that would be 

 3           associated with the pandemic.  Or it could be 

 4           associated with the Halloween flooding in 

 5           Herkimer County where we had that disaster 

 6           that was declared.  Or Isaias, where we had 

 7           the strong winds and we had another federally 

 8           declared disaster.  As part of that, those 

 9           funding -- that funding stream would come in 

10           so that it would be redistributed.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  All right, 

12           I'm going to go further into it, but not with 

13           you today.  Thank you very much.

14                  My second question, I believe the new 

15           head of the Defense Department at the 

16           Pentagon announced his concern that there 

17           were active-duty military personnel and 

18           others in law enforcement who participated in 

19           the January 6th situation at the federal 

20           level.  

21                  And I am wondering whether we in 

22           New York State are doing anything -- he 

23           talked about a new system of training, 

24           educating and sorting through whether we do 


                                                                   216

 1           have white supremacists or home-grown 

 2           terrorists in our own systems of security.  

 3           And I'm wondering whether you are looking at 

 4           that and thinking through do we need to do 

 5           something parallel here in New York State.

 6                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So we 

 7           continue to look at -- whether they wear a 

 8           uniform or not -- working with our law 

 9           enforcement partners and the counterterrorism 

10           zones as well as the New York Intel Center, 

11           and identifying those that would surface as 

12           either a white supremacist or nefarious 

13           actors in some way.  Again, whether they wear 

14           a uniform or not.

15                  I'm not able to speak to the -- what 

16           General Shields would be working on with the 

17           National Guard; at this point I'm two years 

18           removed from that.  If they've got a program 

19           that's coming through the Department of 

20           Defense to do screening or other assessments, 

21           I'm just not able to speak to that at this 

22           point.

23                  But from our perspective, from 

24           Homeland Security's perspective, law 


                                                                   217

 1           enforcement partners continue to look at 

 2           those that would cause us harm.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 4                  Assembly.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to our 

 6           chair of Gov Ops, Assemblyman Zebrowski.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Thanks, Chair 

 8           Weinstein.  

 9                  And good afternoon, commissioner, 

10           great to see you.  Thanks for being with us 

11           today.  And like my colleagues, let me thank 

12           you and all the men and women who work under 

13           you for all the work and how, you know, 

14           during this difficult time you've found ways 

15           to help out in a variety of ways, you know, 

16           looking at and listening to your testimony 

17           today.

18                  I know Senator Brooks I think touched 

19           on it earlier, but I just sort of wanted to 

20           ask -- piggyback on his comments and ask you 

21           a little bit directly too.  So certainly, as 

22           he sort of mentioned, you know, over the past 

23           year, January 6th, it certainly seems a lot 

24           of New Yorkers think extremism, domestic 


                                                                   218

 1           terrorism is on the rise.  

 2                  And I know that -- and I'm not asking 

 3           you to sort of comment publicly on things 

 4           that are sensitive.  But what can you say 

 5           publicly to New Yorkers about these threats, 

 6           about your analysis of these threats, about 

 7           the rise of the threats and where we are now, 

 8           about our ability to proactively prevent 

 9           possible incidents of violence in the future?  

10                  And then specifically, because this is 

11           a budget hearing, you know, tie it towards 

12           our resources, both this year and in future 

13           years.  Do we have enough resources for you 

14           to be proactively doing what needs to be done 

15           to protect all the various corners of New 

16           York State?

17                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  What I 

18           would say is that those that have direct 

19           responsibility for gathering information, 

20           those that are authorized to gather 

21           information on citizens and continue to do 

22           analysis, we routinely partner with those 

23           folks.  The New York State Police and the 

24           Intel Center have collaborated with the other 


                                                                   219

 1           agencies throughout the state to be able to 

 2           track certain individuals that would 

 3           otherwise want to cause us harm.

 4                  And without going into specifics of 

 5           how that's done or who it is, I think that 

 6           the citizenry of New York should be fairly 

 7           comfortable that we have a system in place to 

 8           be able to take a look at this and to act on 

 9           those people that would otherwise cause us 

10           harm, again.

11                  So from that perspective, I think, you 

12           know, we are -- we're in a good place.  Could 

13           we use more resources over time to better 

14           identify people and track them or groups of 

15           people that would cause us harm or cause 

16           citizens harm?  Absolutely.  I mean, it goes 

17           anywhere from something as basic as license 

18           plate readers that have yielded some 

19           incredible intelligence for us that would 

20           help prevent something from happening, to 

21           something as simple as the "See Something, 

22           Say Something" Program and the tip lines that 

23           we have that are relatively inexpensive but, 

24           if the population has confidence in us that 


                                                                   220

 1           we will act on those things -- which we do, 

 2           which our law enforcement partners do -- 

 3           again, I think those in New York should feel 

 4           comfortable that there's a constant 

 5           unwavering eye looking for those that would 

 6           harm us.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Thank you, 

 8           Commissioner.  And I know that to be true, 

 9           and I appreciate, over the years, you and 

10           your team's collaboration with the Assembly 

11           and with the Senate.  

12                  And I would just end with saying that 

13           as, you know, we're certainly in troubling 

14           times and I know we have a joint commitment 

15           to protect all the people of New York State.  

16           And, you know, I just want to express our 

17           commitment, you know, for myself but I think 

18           for most if not all of my colleagues, that 

19           we'll work together and are willing to work 

20           together to sort of identify those resource 

21           needs over the course of the year -- not just 

22           during these budget hearings like today -- 

23           but so that we're looking outward several 

24           years and proactively to address all the 


                                                                   221

 1           safety concerns of New Yorkers.  And really, 

 2           thank you for all that you've done and your 

 3           team has done.

 4                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Thank you, 

 5           sir.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 7                  Senate, do you have anybody else?  We 

 8           still have people.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  No, I don't 

10           believe we do.

11                  THE MODERATOR:  Senator Brooks has his 

12           hand up.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Oh.  No, but he 

14           took it down for me, actually.  He just 

15           didn't know he took it down.

16                  (Laughter.)

17                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman 

18           Lavine for five minutes.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you so 

20           much.  And thank you, Commissioner.

21                  Scott Beigel is a New Yorker, and he 

22           was a teacher at the Marjorie Stoneman 

23           Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, 

24           when he was murdered almost three years ago 


                                                                   222

 1           protecting his students, and he did protect 

 2           his students.

 3                  The Senate today is scheduled to vote 

 4           on the Scott J. Beigel Unfinished Receiver 

 5           Act, which would make it unlawful for anyone 

 6           not a licensed gun dealer to possess the 

 7           component parts to do-it-yourself homemade 

 8           weapons, which are easily purchasable online.  

 9           And the FBI has reported that between 2010 

10           and 2020 there's been a proliferation of the 

11           manufacture, the home manufacture of these 

12           weapons.  And as of 2020, there had been over 

13           2500 arrests, federal arrests for their 

14           possession.

15                  In recent months some of the militant 

16           rightist movements have had their members 

17           arrested for committing crimes and possession 

18           of these homemade weapons.  They don't want 

19           the government knowing what kind of weapons 

20           they have got.  After all, the government is 

21           the enemy, unfortunately.  But this is the 

22           world that we live in.

23                  Can you tell me, has the Division of 

24           Homeland Security begun to yet focus on the 


                                                                   223

 1           threat posed by the homemade do-it-yourself 

 2           manufacture of these sophisticated tactical 

 3           weapons?

 4                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So there's 

 5           really two things that the division does that 

 6           I think fall into the category of taking a 

 7           look at this type of thing.  

 8                  There's really -- the first one is 

 9           probably the most direct, and that is with 

10           our Red-Teaming, where we would go out to a 

11           business establishment that may have 

12           component parts, not only for building a 

13           weapon but also for potentially bomb-making 

14           material.  And then we work with the 

15           "See Something, Say Something" Program to get 

16           additional eyes or sensors, if you will, in 

17           the community to be able to do that.

18                  So we go out and do a series of 

19           educational opportunities in a particular 

20           area, in conjunction with the 

21           counterterrorism zone, local law enforcement.  

22           If that component parts and pieces would be 

23           part of a business there, we will go in then 

24           later and then sample that organization to 


                                                                   224

 1           see if they're tracking who sells it, if 

 2           somebody buys those parts and pieces that 

 3           there's an unknown reason why they would buy 

 4           them and it would otherwise be used for 

 5           something else.

 6                  So through the Red-Teaming, I think we 

 7           touch it.  What we also do is through our 

 8           infrastructure vulnerability, we take a look 

 9           at some of that infrastructure that 

10           potentially could be at risk.

11                  But I would tell you that in more 

12           specific terms, it would be our law 

13           enforcement partners -- really State Police 

14           in this case, or others -- that would be 

15           looking into something more in-depth, like a 

16           mail order or somebody giving us an 

17           indication that they would be -- somebody 

18           that they know would be purchasing items that 

19           they would have something nefarious in mind 

20           with those.

21                  So I think not directly touching on 

22           what you're asking, sir, but that is our 

23           involvement in it.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you, 


                                                                   225

 1           Commissioner.  Thank you for all you and your 

 2           division does.  And thank you for addressing 

 3           this burgeoning and imminent threat to the 

 4           safety of our citizens. 

 5                  Take good care.  Thank you.

 6                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Thank you, 

 7           sir.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 9                  So now we go to our final Assembly 

10           questioner, Assemblymember Lawler.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Thank you,  

12           Chairwoman.  

13                  Commissioner, thanks for joining us 

14           this morning.  I apologize for -- I've been 

15           going between screens for session and the 

16           budget hearing.  So if I ask a question that 

17           you already answered, if you can indulge me, 

18           I'd appreciate it.

19                  With respect to the FEMA 

20           reimbursements, what expenditures by local 

21           governments are considered eligible for this 

22           reimbursement?  And does this include FEMA 

23           funding or CARES Act funding or both?  

24                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  So I think 


                                                                   226

 1           the answer is both, in terms of what is 

 2           eligible for purchasing.

 3                  Our agency is not managing the 

 4           CARES Act dollars.  What we will do is work 

 5           with municipalities as to what those eligible 

 6           costs are.  Some of them are still being 

 7           defined right now -- in other words, 

 8           cleaning, for example, or sanitizing, as well 

 9           as some of the PPE that was purchased over 

10           time.  Because we had a period of 

11           eligibility, then a period of ineligibility, 

12           and now we're back to something that looks 

13           more like 100 percent reimbursement.  So we 

14           are currently working with FEMA to best 

15           identify what those eligible costs are.

16                  But in the end, sanitation, as it 

17           relates to infection, personal protective 

18           equipment of a variety of types.  Some of it 

19           may be durable medical supplies in the end 

20           that would be reimbursed.  And then right 

21           now, as of I think it's the 21st of January, 

22           a hundred percent on vaccination costs.  In 

23           other words, resources used by the county or 

24           the municipality to administer vaccines, 


                                                                   227

 1           pretty much all of those costs to be able to 

 2           bring people into a particular site, to be 

 3           able to provide them the vaccine, to provide 

 4           them the medical supplies that support the 

 5           administration of the vaccines, those types 

 6           of things.

 7                  Did I get to your question there, sir?  

 8           It's fairly broad to answer.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Yup.  I 

10           appreciate it.  

11                  Shifting gears completely away from 

12           that, my last question is about obviously 

13           some of the violence and extremism that we've 

14           witnessed in our country both, you know, last 

15           summer with some of the riots, and certainly 

16           on January 6th down at the Capitol.

17                  When you're looking into some of this, 

18           are you looking to see if there are 

19           organizations or entities that are paying 

20           people to go to protest, paying people to be 

21           part of this violence in any way and helping 

22           kind of organize?  Because in some of these 

23           cases it certainly seems very organized.  And 

24           I'm just curious if that's something you've 


                                                                   228

 1           looked into as part of ensuring the public 

 2           safety here.  

 3                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Okay.  So 

 4           our agency specifically does not look into 

 5           that.

 6                  But I can tell you from being part of 

 7           the community of interest in this case -- 

 8           again, I would refer back to the State 

 9           Police, our federal partners that sit in the 

10           New York Intel Center, they do analysis on 

11           the flow of money that comes in support of a 

12           number of activities.  So that is a component 

13           of the activity that goes on.  

14                  And I can assure you that behind a 

15           closed door we could probably talk a little 

16           bit more about those activities as they 

17           relate to that.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  I appreciate 

19           that.  And I know my time is up.  I would 

20           just say the -- I think that's something we 

21           need to look at and go after those that are 

22           paying people to actually go agitate and 

23           organize in that manner.

24                  So thank you.


                                                                   229

 1                  DHSES COMMISSIONER MURPHY:  Thank you.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So, Senator 

 4           Krueger, we are finished on the Assembly 

 5           side.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And we are 

 7           finished on the Senate side.

 8                  So, Commissioner, I want to thank you 

 9           very much for being here with us today.  And 

10           continue with your good work on our behalf, 

11           even though we often don't know all the 

12           things you are doing with your division.

13                  Our next up, the New York State Office 

14           of Information Technology Services, Angelo 

15           "Tony" Riddick, interim CIO and director.  

16                  Are you with us?  

17                  THE MODERATOR:  He was.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Hello.  Does 

19           anyone on staff know whether --

20                  (Overtalk.)

21                  THE MODERATOR:  Yeah, he was just 

22           here.  We will --

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  We've lost 

24           him; we will find him.


                                                                   230

 1                  And for those of you tracking the day, 

 2           we've completed four of our eight government 

 3           representatives, just to give you a flavor 

 4           for the length of this hearing.

 5                  SENATOR RIVERA:  By the way, it's more 

 6           than a little ironic that it is the chief 

 7           information officer that had technical 

 8           issues.  Just sayin'.

 9                  (Laughter.)

10                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  You know, that 

11           happens all the time.  

12                  Good afternoon.  Can you hear me?

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yes, we can hear 

14           you.  Hi, how are you?

15                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  I'm fine, thank 

16           you.  I just looked at my team and said, that 

17           had to happen right at the nick of time.  So 

18           my apologies.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  That's okay.  

20           Everybody has a little bit of technology 

21           problems, it's true, it's true.

22                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Especially the 

23           chief information officer.  

24                  Thank you, Chairs Krueger and 


                                                                   231

 1           Weinstein and distinguished members of --

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Wait, wait, wait.  

 3           One second.  Somebody's not on mute.  Please 

 4           put yourself on mute.  We don't want to hear 

 5           your phone conversations.  Thank you.

 6                  Okay, please keep going.

 7                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Thank you, 

 8           Chairs Krueger and Weinstein, and 

 9           distinguished members of the Senate and 

10           Assembly, for your leadership, experience and 

11           service to New York.  My name is Angelo 

12           Riddick, and I am grateful to be joining you 

13           to discuss the work and mission of the 

14           State's Office of Information Technology 

15           Services.  

16                  Before starting as the State CIO in 

17           December, I was blessed to have a 30-year 

18           military career, much of it specializing in 

19           information technology.  Most recently I 

20           served as the CIO of the United States Virgin 

21           Islands. 

22                  Let me start by first saying thank you 

23           to Governor Cuomo for the opportunity.

24                  Over much of the last year, the agency 


                                                                   232

 1           I now lead has been at the forefront of the 

 2           state's COVID response.  We helped tens of 

 3           thousands of state employees in their 

 4           transition from office to remote work with 

 5           laptops, phones, video conferencing tools, 

 6           and secure access to the state's network.  

 7           This work allowed our client agencies to 

 8           continue meeting the needs of New Yorkers 

 9           during the global pandemic.

10                  We rapidly built and deployed new 

11           applications like the Facility Entry 

12           Screening app, which has allowed state 

13           employees to begin safely returning to their 

14           offices.  Eighty state entities now use this 

15           tool to protect their most precious 

16           resource -- our people.  

17                  We created the state's COVID-19 

18           dashboard and Nourish New York app, expanded 

19           remote hearings and virtual waiting rooms, 

20           and improved the digital experience for 

21           millions of New Yorkers in search of state 

22           services.  

23                  At the Governor's direction, we 

24           managed the state's successful Tech SWAT 


                                                                   233

 1           program, a partnership with leading 

 2           technology companies that allowed us to surge 

 3           resources and meet unprecedented demand.  

 4           Tech volunteers donated 25,000 pro bono hours 

 5           and saved taxpayers $14 million.  

 6                  The work now being done by ITS is 

 7           consistent with the Governor's "Build Back 

 8           Better" directive.  When it comes to 

 9           technology, our challenge is always to build 

10           back smarter, more agile, more modern, and 

11           more secure for the future.  

12                  Despite new and unexpected challenges 

13           caused by the COVID pandemic, our $861 

14           million Executive Budget allocation is 

15           virtually unchanged from last year.  However, 

16           like most agencies, we are doing more with 

17           less.  ITS has accelerated modernization 

18           efforts, enhanced the digital offerings of 

19           many state agencies, and we continue to 

20           decommission legacy systems.  

21                  We are now fully engaged with the 

22           vaccine distribution sites around the state, 

23           providing 24/7 technical support and 

24           assisting with other COVID-19-related 


                                                                   234

 1           IT challenges.  Meanwhile, our security team 

 2           is working around the clock to protect the 

 3           state's infrastructure from a growing number 

 4           of cyber threats.  

 5                  In cooperation with partner agencies 

 6           like DHSES, our security experts are often 

 7           engaged to support state and local government 

 8           entities, hospitals and schools as they work 

 9           to navigate threats to their own 

10           environments.  

11                  The much-publicized SolarWinds hack 

12           has impacted many federal agencies.  And 

13           while our forensic review has indicated no 

14           unusual activity within our systems to date, 

15           New York, as always, remains on high alert.  

16                  Due to the challenges and complexities 

17           brought on by COVID, we live in a very 

18           different world than the one we resided in 

19           just a year ago.  Under the Governor's 

20           leadership, I am proud to say that we have 

21           adapted to these challenges and continue to 

22           position New York as a leader and innovator.  

23           The Executive Budget will enable us to 

24           deliver timely and cost-effective solutions 


                                                                   235

 1           for more than 40 Executive agencies and the 

 2           New Yorkers they serve.  

 3                  Technology has been an ally during the 

 4           pandemic.  It's allowed teachers to continue 

 5           to educate our children, helped many 

 6           businesses evolve and remain open, allowed 

 7           New Yorkers to seek real-time medical advice 

 8           from highly-skilled doctors and nurses, 

 9           ensured the integrity of state and federal 

10           elections, and kept us connected to our 

11           families when we needed them the most.  

12           Investing in our technology infrastructure is 

13           more important today than it has ever been.  

14                  I am truly honored to serve the state 

15           of New York.  As CIO, my goal is to 

16           seamlessly integrate the people, processes, 

17           products and policy to serve our citizens in 

18           a better, smarter and more cost-effective 

19           way.  

20                  I thank you for your time, and I'm 

21           happy to answer any questions you may have. 

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

23           much, Commissioner.  

24                  I don't see the Senate chair yet, so 


                                                                   236

 1           I'm going to move along to Assembly Chair 

 2           Zebrowski for the first set of questions.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Thank you.  

 4                  And thanks for being with us here 

 5           today.

 6                  I've got a couple of questions.  And I 

 7           think the first one is definitely in your 

 8           purview, and the second one may not be, so 

 9           perhaps you could point me in the right 

10           direction, because I don't know who else I 

11           would ask about it.

12                  First, so the budget once again 

13           includes a proposal to have almost like a 

14           design-build system, right, for comprehensive 

15           technology service contracts.  So maybe you 

16           could talk a little bit about, you know, what 

17           problems are you trying to solve?  What does 

18           this give you the ability to do?  How do you 

19           currently sort of like internally produce, 

20           you know, technology products, and how do you 

21           currently procure technology products, and 

22           how would this improve that process?  

23                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Of course IT 

24           procurement is a touchy subject.  And thanks 


                                                                   237

 1           for asking that question.  I'm very familiar 

 2           with the process, I've read on the proposal.  

 3           And what this proposal will allow us to do is 

 4           possibly use one vendor from cradle to grave 

 5           in terms of project management, architecting, 

 6           and executing the project itself. 

 7                  Under the old infrastructure -- and 

 8           I've used it in many cases before -- the 

 9           procurement process forces an entity to look 

10           at several vendors throughout the life cycle 

11           of the project.  Meaning that you may have 

12           one architect, you may have one builder, and 

13           you may have one quality-control executor.

14                  It's complicated when you add too many 

15           cooks in the kitchen.  What this bill 

16           proposes to do is to allow us of course to 

17           use the standard procurement processes that 

18           we use in the State of New York but in many 

19           cases we can procure a vendor to do the job 

20           from its architectural phase and concept 

21           phase through the build phase and finally 

22           through the quality-control phase before 

23           deployment.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Okay.  So it's 


                                                                   238

 1           not necessarily like a cost-saving measure as 

 2           much as it's -- you know, given the nature of 

 3           these contracts, this would make them -- this 

 4           type of procurement process would make it 

 5           more efficient and more -- I'm searching for 

 6           the right word; maybe you can give it to me.  

 7           Is that essentially what you're saying? 

 8                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  I think you used 

 9           the perfect word, sir.  

10                  Efficiencies are what we want to 

11           capitalize on, and this proposal will allow 

12           us to be more proficient, especially in 

13           big-contract procurement programs.  

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Okay.  all 

15           right.  Thank you for that info.  

16                  The second thing.  So there's a part 

17           of the budget that would permit agencies to 

18           share voluntarily provided citizen data as 

19           long as the sharing is consistent with state 

20           and federal law and preexisting privacy 

21           practices.  

22                  So this is the part where I'm not a 

23           hundred percent sure if this would be under 

24           your purview or not.  But assuming it is, 


                                                                   239

 1           could you give me a sense of what you're -- 

 2           what is the state trying to do and how our 

 3           current laws don't allow it?  

 4                  Because, you know, in our sort of 

 5           analysis, I'm not sure that we don't think 

 6           that, you know, you're able to do some sort 

 7           of interagency sharing if you're looking to 

 8           give people the ability to, you know, sort 

 9           of, I don't know, one-stop shop, if you will.  

10           But, you know, sign into one state agency and 

11           have their information be shareable with 

12           other agencies.  I can see how that, you 

13           know, would be helpful to New Yorkers.  

14                  Is that what you're trying to get at?

15                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  I see your 

16           perspective and I absolutely agree, that if 

17           we have one giant database and we could 

18           segment that database to allow information to 

19           be shared on a need-to-know and need-to-share 

20           basis, we'd be in an optimum environment.  

21                  However, that's not always possible.  

22           Agencies develop requirements.  We configure 

23           databases and data streaming based on those 

24           requirements using the policies and 


                                                                   240

 1           regulations that they are governed by.  We 

 2           don't set those policies.  However, we do 

 3           work with agencies to understand those 

 4           requirements and secure that data as much as 

 5           we can.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  So maybe you 

 7           could allay the fears of myself and some of 

 8           my colleagues, okay?  

 9                  So what they would be afraid of if we 

10           adopt this in the budget is that, you know, 

11           we are contributing to what is a 

12           proliferation of the selling of people's 

13           individual data, resulting in perhaps a host 

14           of, you know, harmful or otherwise invasive 

15           things happening in their lives.

16                  So will this provision -- will you be 

17           selling data?  Will this -- when you say it 

18           will be voluntarily provided, will it truly 

19           be voluntary?  Will people know what they're 

20           doing or when they're signing up for 

21           something on the DMV or on, you know, some 

22           other state agency, maybe they're getting a 

23           fishing license or something, you know, will 

24           they just be checking a box that, you know, 


                                                                   241

 1           they have to check anyway and then therefore 

 2           their information is going to be shared more 

 3           now than it was in the past?  

 4                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  I can definitely 

 5           respect your inquiry about the risk of 

 6           sharing data.  I can assure you that ITS will 

 7           not be in the business of selling data, and 

 8           data sharing will be based on requirements 

 9           that are established by organizations that we 

10           support.  

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Okay.  So you 

12           can definitively say it's not to sell the 

13           data.

14                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Absolutely.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Okay.  And, 

16           you know, I know it says consistent with 

17           state and federal law.  Well, you know, that 

18           doesn't give me a whole lot of assurance 

19           because, you know, a whole lot of data's 

20           being shared right now and certainly it has 

21           to be consistent with state and federal law.

22                  So I can take from your comments today 

23           that it's not to sell, it's not to sort of 

24           like share with outside entities that are not 


                                                                   242

 1           related to state agency function, and that 

 2           this is merely to allow the state agencies to 

 3           exist and share data within each other for 

 4           the benefit of New York citizens in terms of 

 5           just utilizing state resources?  

 6                  I know I had a lot there, but am I -- 

 7           can you say yes to that?  Can you confirm?  

 8                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  I can say 

 9           absolutely yes to that.  

10                  And again, ITS is not in the business 

11           of selling data.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Okay.  All 

13           right.  I appreciate your answers today.  

14           And, you know, for both these items I would 

15           just say, you know, they definitely are 

16           complicated.  You know, we want to understand 

17           it.  You know, I want to understand it both 

18           as a chair and our staffs want to understand 

19           it, and we want to be able to -- a lot of the 

20           members of the Assembly, probably some 

21           Senators too -- I won't speak for the other 

22           house -- you know, have questions about this 

23           stuff.  

24                  So as we go forward, perhaps we could 


                                                                   243

 1           set up a communication channel between now 

 2           and when we adopt the budget that if we have 

 3           additional questions, we can ask you.  We'd 

 4           appreciate that.

 5                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Well, thank you 

 6           for your questions.  I look forward to 

 7           working with you in the future.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Thank you.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senate?  

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Senator Diane 

12           Savino.

13                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you.  Thank 

14           you.  

15                  Nice to meet you, Commissioner 

16           Riddick.  I saw in your testimony that you 

17           said that you were pleased to be able to join 

18           the team in December.  At the end of this 

19           year I'll ask you if you continue to feel 

20           that way, having been here for a year 

21           (laughing).  

22                  As you know, New York State, like a 

23           lot of large states, is probably years behind 

24           where it should be with respect to its 


                                                                   244

 1           internet technology infrastructure.  Ten 

 2           years ago, as a member of the Senate, I wrote 

 3           and passed a law that we adopted to allow for 

 4           the insourcing of information technology and 

 5           the development of an IT -- what we like to 

 6           call our own Geek Squad.  

 7                  Ten years later, the state has yet to 

 8           fully implement that.  We've not been able to 

 9           accomplish that.  How do we recruit and 

10           retain information technology experts who 

11           want to stay in the government workforce?  

12           And it probably couldn't have come at a worse 

13           time when the pandemic hit and we had to then 

14           send almost all of our workforce home to find 

15           ways to service the population, whether it 

16           was adapting our legacy systems, whether it 

17           was the unemployment system, our public 

18           assistance systems, and be able to have 

19           people work remotely, provide them the 

20           equipment, and do all that and then find ways 

21           to secure them.  

22                  So you have your work cut out for you.  

23           I know in the Governor's budget he is 

24           proposing a couple of issues that -- I'm 


                                                                   245

 1           happy to hear you explained the issue of the 

 2           comprehensive technology contracts, or kind 

 3           of the design-build for technology.  But I 

 4           want to ask you a question that I asked your 

 5           predecessor who testified previously from 

 6           Homeland Security.  

 7                  One of the big challenges we're seeing 

 8           across the state are ransomware attacks, 

 9           whether it be in our district attorney's 

10           offices, our school districts, local 

11           governments, or even in our own offices.  And 

12           some of it I believe is because we're 

13           allowing local governments, right down to 

14           towns and villages, to handle the issue of 

15           technology purchases and software purchases.

16                  Do you think, though, that this 

17           approach of this comprehensive technology 

18           contract is something that would help to 

19           prevent that type of cybersecurity risks?  

20                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  I think it will 

21           definitely create efficiencies.  And thanks 

22           so much for the question.  But what you did 

23           is you tapped on my philosophy of using 

24           people, processes and policy.


                                                                   246

 1                  As we work with local entities, as we 

 2           work with organizations, it's important that 

 3           we provide the guidance that they need.  Now, 

 4           one size fits all doesn't work for 

 5           cybersecurity.  I've always said, since my 

 6           days in academia, teaching at the National 

 7           Defense University, that the best we can do 

 8           in cyber is stay one town ahead of the posse.  

 9                  It's the people's job who work in ITS 

10           and all the various agencies to lean forward 

11           and make sure that we're paying attention to 

12           what's happening out there in the wild.  We 

13           have to improve our processes as well.  We 

14           have to make sure that we identify 

15           efficiencies.  And one of the processes that 

16           we have to implement and stay glued to is our 

17           ability to do the professional reading, to 

18           find out what's happening out there.  

19                  And with regards to policy, I'm a 

20           policy man.  I think that we should have 

21           inward-facing policies and outward-facing 

22           policies for the use of our technologies.  

23                  These three things implemented in the 

24           right strategy will help us to secure our 


                                                                   247

 1           network and keep our data safe and our people 

 2           secure.

 3                  However, it takes an effort, it takes 

 4           teamwork, and I'm going to be behind that a 

 5           hundred percent.  Cybersecurity is something 

 6           that I'm emphatic about.  And again, I 

 7           emphasize that we can only stay one town 

 8           ahead of the posse.  If we can get two or 

 9           three, that will be great.  But they're 

10           always nipping at our heels.

11                  SENATOR SAVINO:  I certainly look 

12           forward to working with you.  

13                  Have you had a chance to analyze some 

14           of these legacy systems that we've had in 

15           place, whether it's the old welfare 

16           management system or particularly with 

17           respect to our public assistance programs?  

18           They're horrible.

19                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Oh, absolutely.  

20           I've definitely looked at WMS, the Welfare 

21           Management System, and I've looked at its 

22           successor, the Integrated Eligibility System.  

23           Eventually in 2024 the goal is to deliver the 

24           Integrated Eligibility System, which should 


                                                                   248

 1           clean some of the problems that we've had 

 2           with WMS.  

 3                  However, at the same time, it's like 

 4           fixing a tire with the car rolling.  We 

 5           cannot discount that we still have to use WMS 

 6           until its life cycle is over with.  So we're 

 7           paying attention to that, we're trying to fix 

 8           the holes, we're trying to fix gaps.  We're 

 9           trying to keep the clients and the customers 

10           satisfied there.

11                  And yes, I've looked at legacy systems 

12           as well.  I appreciate that question.  I met 

13           with the DMV; I know that they're working 

14           with an antiquated system.  But they're 

15           leaning forward as well, and we're looking at 

16           solutions that they can move to to make their 

17           technology up-to-date, more efficient and 

18           more effective.  And eventually it will save 

19           us money.

20                  SENATOR SAVINO:  I definitely look 

21           forward to it.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, Diane.  

23           No more, sorry.

24                  SENATOR SAVINO:  That's okay.


                                                                   249

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So we go to 

 3           Assemblyman Ra, five minutes.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, Chair.

 5                  Good afternoon.  Thank you -- thank 

 6           you for being here.  My colleague got into a 

 7           little bit of what I wanted to, but I just 

 8           want to circle back to that Part FF in the 

 9           budget bill that deals with this kind of 

10           design-build-type concept for awarding 

11           contracts.  And you did give, you know, an 

12           idea of what you're looking for.

13                  I just -- I don't know if you can 

14           maybe give like an example of a type of, you 

15           know, situation that it would help the 

16           department with.  I know that, you know, 

17           there's -- in the past there's been a major 

18           bidding of IT contracts.  And I know that the 

19           state just put off a contract that was due to 

20           be rebid and extended the existing one.

21                  So I'm just looking for, would this 

22           potentially be in place of that type of 

23           contract?

24                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Well, I think I 


                                                                   250

 1           heard you say you wanted an example, and I'm 

 2           very willing to give you an example.  And 

 3           it's a great segue from what I just talked 

 4           about in legacy systems.  

 5                  If we designed a project to upgrade 

 6           all of the mainframe systems that we have in 

 7           an area -- let's just say an area like Empire 

 8           Plaza.  In the procurement process we will 

 9           look to a vendor that could come in and do an 

10           architectural design, provide the resources 

11           that we need to replace that system -- say, 

12           with a client server-based system or a 

13           software solution that's in the Cloud -- and 

14           that person could work on the architectural 

15           design of the facility itself.  

16                  Rather than work on a contract that 

17           would hire three or four vendors to do 

18           multifaceted pieces of that work, this will 

19           allow us to do a procurement proposal that 

20           would allow a vendor to make a bid to do all 

21           of the work themselves.  That creates 

22           efficiency and reduces conflict, and it 

23           speeds up the project from cradle to grave.  

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.  And could you 


                                                                   251

 1           just -- you know, obviously we've seen in so 

 2           many ways in the last year that some of our 

 3           IT infrastructure, you know, needed to be 

 4           upgraded to handle things.  So certainly I 

 5           understand where you're coming from with 

 6           regard to that.  

 7                  But I know this is a proposal that has 

 8           come up in the past and I guess not made it 

 9           past the finish line.

10                  So do you think that, you know, the 

11           circumstances have changed in part because of 

12           some of the issues we've dealt with that 

13           makes this the right time to go with this 

14           type of approach?

15                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  You know, I 

16           think what we're going through with the surge 

17           in COVID and the resources that we have to 

18           use and to tackle, I think it's a great 

19           opportunity to identify those efficiencies 

20           and perhaps use the next project as an 

21           example of the clarity, of the efficiency 

22           that that proposal lends itself to.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.  Well, thank 

24           you for that.  


                                                                   252

 1                  It is a -- it's an interesting budget 

 2           from a technology standpoint.  Certainly, you 

 3           know, there's these types of proposals.  

 4           There's things I know that aren't directly 

 5           related to your department.  But, you know, 

 6           you have the broadband proposal; you know, 

 7           you have obviously the data accountability 

 8           and transparency piece.  

 9                  And I just hope that when we get into 

10           some of these areas that are just so 

11           technical, that we can make sure we're 

12           getting the input from our business 

13           community, from people in the state, and 

14           certainly from experts in these areas to make 

15           sure that, you know, we come up with the best 

16           system we want.  We always want the best.  We 

17           always want to be the leader in the things 

18           we're doing.  

19                  So I thank you for your answers.

20                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Thank you so 

21           much.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

23                  We go back to the Senate now.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  


                                                                   253

 1                  Senator Kevin Thomas.

 2                  SENATOR THOMAS:   Hi.  Thank you, 

 3           Chair.  And thank you, Commissioner, for 

 4           being here to testify.

 5                  I'm sure you're aware that the 

 6           Governor introduced the Data Accountability 

 7           and Protection Act; my colleague in the 

 8           Assembly just brought that up.  How familiar 

 9           is the Office of Information Technology 

10           Services with privacy and cybersecurity 

11           standards and best practices?  

12                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  You know, I have 

13           all the confidence -- and thank you for 

14           asking that question.  

15                  In my cyber team and the individuals 

16           that work at the executive level in ITS, 

17           they've done a heck of a job of bringing me 

18           up to speed with the questions that I should 

19           anticipate here.  Not only that, in my 

20           orientation they provided me with the 

21           information that I needed to talk about 

22           things like data privacy, data security and 

23           all of those relative subjects.  I've got to 

24           tell you, it was a baptism by fire.  I'm 


                                                                   254

 1           still working.  I can't necessarily answer 

 2           all the questions.  But feel free to ask me 

 3           something specific and I'll give you the best 

 4           shot at it that I can.  I'll defer to my team 

 5           at a later time and get back with you later 

 6           if I can't satisfy your requirement here.

 7                  SENATOR THOMAS:   Sure.  All right, 

 8           I'll ask you one question because of my time. 

 9                  The Governor's proposal gives primary 

10           enforcement to the Department of State.  For 

11           context here, the Office of the Attorney 

12           General has actively prosecuted privacy 

13           violations for a decade.  The Department of 

14           Financial Services, who was given a small 

15           enforcement role in the Governor's proposal, 

16           has also actively regulated cybersecurity 

17           since 2017.  

18                  What experience does the Department of 

19           State have in privacy and cybersecurity to 

20           justify their role as primary enforcer?  

21                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Respectfully, 

22           Senator, I think that's a great question but 

23           I'm going to have to defer to my colleagues.  

24           If I get a satisfactory answer, I'll make 


                                                                   255

 1           sure to circle back with you.

 2                  SENATOR THOMAS:  All right.  

 3           Chairwoman, I will yield my time.  

 4                  Thank you so much, Commissioner.

 5                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Thank you.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 7                  Assembly?

 8                  THE MODERATOR:  Chair, you're muted.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We do not have 

10           any other Assembly members.  

11                  So back to the Senate.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  I 

13           didn't realize I was on mute.

14                  Okay.  Senator Tom O'Mara.

15                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you, 

16           Chairwoman.  

17                  And thank you for being with us today 

18           to testify.  Appreciate your time and your 

19           commitment, which I'm sure it's been a brutal 

20           year from your position in dealing with the 

21           crises that we've had, particularly the 

22           difficulties in unemployment and how that was 

23           handled.

24                  Can you outline for us what's the 


                                                                   256

 1           status of the computer upgrades for the 

 2           Department of Labor?  That we really got 

 3           caught with our pants down this year with 

 4           regards to handling unemployment claims, and 

 5           my understanding is that was a -- I don't 

 6           know how old of a system, but I heard it was 

 7           DOS-based.  

 8                  So where are we in regard to that 

 9           agency in particular?

10                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Thanks for that 

11           question, Senator O'Mara.

12                  I don't have a specific answer to 

13           that.  I can tell you what I've done working 

14           with the department up to date.  But in terms 

15           of a deployment for a new computer system or 

16           an upgrade, I don't have that specific 

17           answer.  

18                  However, I will make sure that my team 

19           and I work on that and we'll get back to you 

20           at a later date.

21                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Okay.  Yeah, please 

22           do.

23                  And do you have a sense of the various 

24           agencies and departments across the state -- 


                                                                   257

 1           I mean, where we could find ourselves very 

 2           embarrassed and uncapable because of our 

 3           outdated systems?  And just what kind of 

 4           outlook you have for the state's overall 

 5           upgrading of all its various systems.  

 6                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Absolutely.  As 

 7           a part of my orientation -- I think that's a 

 8           great question.  

 9                  As a part of my orientation, I wanted 

10           my CTO, my chief technology officer, and all 

11           around him to brief me on where we are with 

12           modernization.  The modernization efforts 

13           that are in place I'm very satisfied with.  

14                  I want to improve on the process, 

15           however, of how we develop an RFP, how we 

16           look at bids, how we look at vendors who, you 

17           know, make bids for those RFPs.  And make 

18           sure that we're use proper process and 

19           project planning.

20                  Recently I went over with my chief 

21           portfolio officer the process that we use to 

22           take a project from cradle to grave.

23                  With regards to looking at those 

24           systems, what I want to do is implement a few 


                                                                   258

 1           processes like a control board, to eliminate 

 2           the dialogue that it takes to understand what 

 3           requirements are as we move forward with 

 4           satisfying an upgrade and find efficiencies 

 5           to move that process through to 

 6           implementation.

 7                  So yes, we've looked at the legacy 

 8           systems.  It's going to be a challenge, but 

 9           it's not something we can't overcome with 

10           identifying efficiencies and looking at the 

11           latest, greatest leading-edge technology.

12                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you for that 

13           answer.  And I'm glad to hear that you're on 

14           top of this and reviewing these so we don't 

15           have these situations in the future.

16                  And I think we need to make a stronger 

17           commitment from the state budgetary process 

18           to make these upgrades.  I think we go too 

19           long in between upgrades of various systems, 

20           but -- and the technologies change so fast.

21                  Can you generally outline for me what 

22           the -- what your or your office's, the 

23           state's strategy is in regard to the Cloud 

24           technology that's out there?  Are we 


                                                                   259

 1           utilizing it fully?  Are you comfortable with 

 2           the safety and security of it?

 3                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  You know -- and 

 4           I think, again, that's a great question, 

 5           because I've had those challenges before.  

 6           Should we go to the Cloud or should we use a 

 7           local-based system to store?  Now, understand 

 8           that the data centers that we have are really 

 9           virtual clouds for the data that we store.  

10           When we need to resort to a vendor to use 

11           their Cloud resources -- say, AWS, Amazon Web 

12           Services, or Google services -- we'll 

13           definitely look for efficiencies and we'll 

14           always factor in security as we make a 

15           prudent decision to move to those platforms.

16                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Well, thank you very 

17           much.  Appreciate your time and your answers, 

18           and good luck in making the changes that need 

19           to be made.  Appreciate it.

20                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Thank you very 

21           much.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Helene, do you 

23           have Assembly anyone?

24                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We do not.


                                                                   260

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  So we 

 2           actually have one more Senator.  But before I 

 3           go to him -- and that's Brad Hoylman -- I do 

 4           want to clarify for the record that Diane 

 5           Savino is the chair of our new Committee on 

 6           Information and Technology, or some better 

 7           name than that.  And I think you heard from 

 8           Kevin Thomas, from Consumer Affairs.  

 9                  These are both crucially important 

10           committees for going down the road and 

11           looking at the endless questions that now 

12           confront us because we live in a world where, 

13           you know, that bad movie, the machines have 

14           taken over, but we're not exactly sure what 

15           they're doing and we need to make sure 

16           they're doing what we need them to do and not 

17           doing all the other things they can do.

18                  So I encourage you to continue your 

19           work with those of those committee chairs and 

20           their equivalent Assembly chairs.

21                  With that, Senator Brad Hoylman to 

22           close for the Senate.

23                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you.

24                  Nice to see you.  Thank you for being 


                                                                   261

 1           here, Commissioner.

 2                  I wanted to ask you a question -- it's 

 3           been brought to my attention from 

 4           constituents that New York State agency 

 5           websites do generally not offer users an easy 

 6           way to translate the text of the websites 

 7           into different languages.  

 8                  There is one notable exception, which 

 9           is the state's COVID-19 vaccine eligibility 

10           website, which features a drop-down menu 

11           allowing users to translate into Spanish, 

12           Chinese, Russian, Haitian Creole, Bengali or 

13           Korean.  It's a wonderful feature.  I 

14           actually wish more websites incorporated it.  

15                  In 2011 the Governor issued an 

16           executive order to ensure that state agencies 

17           established language access plans.  What role 

18           does the Office of Information Technology 

19           Services play in helping state agencies 

20           comply with Governor Cuomo's executive order?  

21           It was EO26.

22                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Senator, great 

23           question.  Our role with agencies is to make 

24           sure that we clarify requirements, that we 


                                                                   262

 1           work with those requirements and we deploy 

 2           the systems based on those requirements.  

 3                  I think it takes a double 

 4           collaborative effort.  When our team sits 

 5           down with an agency -- say, to build a 

 6           website or to deploy a new piece of equipment 

 7           or upgrade -- it's important that we 

 8           understand what those requirements are.  

 9                  I am not necessarily familiar with the 

10           language challenge we have here, but I've 

11           made a note and I'm going to have my web team 

12           take a look at these websites to make sure 

13           that we're working with these agencies to 

14           meet all of those requirements, be it 

15           language, be it Section 8, whatever we're 

16           required to do.  

17                  It's my job to make sure we do it 

18           effectively and efficiently, but it's 

19           important that we collaborate.  So 

20           collaboration is a part of that process that 

21           I want to improve as a team leader.

22                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Well, thank you, I 

23           appreciate that.

24                  I recently introduced legislation with 


                                                                   263

 1           Assemblymember Yuh-Line Niou that would 

 2           require New York State agency websites to 

 3           incorporate language translation technology 

 4           within 90 days.  Do you think that's 

 5           feasible?

 6                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  I'll have to 

 7           look at what that process involved.  I think 

 8           it's feasible.  I know there are some tools 

 9           out there that we can link to to make that 

10           more realistic, where we don't have to do the 

11           heavy lifting and write all the codes.

12                  So I'll get with my staff to find out 

13           exactly how we define that requirement from 

14           the agencies, take a look at your proposal, 

15           and do it efficiently and effectively and to 

16           standard.

17                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you very much.  

18           Much appreciate it.  

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

20                  And we have been joined by one 

21           additional Senator desperate to ask you a 

22           question, Gustavo Rivera, chair of the 

23           Health Committee.

24                  SENATOR RIVERA:  Thank you.  It will 


                                                                   264

 1           be quick.  

 2                  Hello, sir.  These are -- sorry that 

 3           I'm a little dark, but the sun is right 

 4           behind me right now.  

 5                  The questions all relate to our 

 6           corrections system, and specifically I wanted 

 7           to see if you could give us any sense 

 8           about -- whether it's medical records, 

 9           updating medical records software, parole 

10           records, obviously you could -- I don't have 

11           to tell you how much easier either of these 

12           things, whether it's providing medical care 

13           or securing medical care and the parole 

14           process, how easier it would be if there was 

15           a more modernized information system for both 

16           of these things.  And also any updates that 

17           you can give us on potentially expanding 

18           broadband for prisons across the state.  

19                  So anything you can tell us about how 

20           these things interact with corrections and 

21           information technology.

22                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Senator, 

23           unfortunately -- and thanks for the 

24           question -- I don't have any ideas that I can 


                                                                   265

 1           express right now.  I'll have to look into 

 2           that challenge and get back with you, if 

 3           you'll allow me, because we're going to have 

 4           to do an analysis.  I'm not familiar with the 

 5           situation.  I'm familiar with all of the 

 6           requirements -- the HIPAA requirements, 

 7           medical records and all of those things.  But 

 8           as it relates to the correction system, I've 

 9           not yet been read in.  I will make that a 

10           priority.

11                  SENATOR RIVERA:  And I would really 

12           appreciate it that you do.  I mean, again, 

13           whether it's on the -- I went to one parole 

14           board many years ago as an observer, and 

15           seeing a stack like literally this high off 

16           the desk of just paper, paper, paper for 

17           folks who were being seen that day.  I mean, 

18           that obviously does not speak -- it was years 

19           ago, so I'm hoping -- and apparently that is 

20           still the case.

21                  So whether it's related to parole, 

22           whether it's related to the medical systems 

23           like -- and whether it's related to broadband 

24           at prisons and also looking more specifically 


                                                                   266

 1           into the tablets that are provided for 

 2           incarcerated people.  And considering that 

 3           they're kind of like a money pit, apparently.  

 4           It's like a private company that just kind of 

 5           abuses it, the service that they're 

 6           providing, I would just appreciate that -- 

 7           you know, I'm glad that you're on the record 

 8           as not being aware of stuff but wanting to 

 9           learn more about it, and I would really 

10           appreciate if you would get back to us on it.

11                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Absolutely.  

12           Thank you very much.

13                  SENATOR RIVERA:  Thank you, sir.

14                  Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  All 

16           right.  With that, I think we are going to 

17           say thank you very much.  Welcome for joining 

18           us here in New York State in December.  And 

19           plan on staying a while, because apparently 

20           we have a long list of things for you to do.

21                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Absolutely.  

22           Thank you so much.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

24                  INTERIM CIO RIDDICK:  Thank you.  


                                                                   267

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Our next speaker 

 2           is Michael Green, executive deputy 

 3           commissioner, New York State Division of 

 4           Criminal Justice Services.  

 5                  And the chairs are Bailey and 

 6           Dinowitz, from Codes.

 7                  Welcome.

 8                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Good 

 9           afternoon.  Thank you for having me.

10                  Good afternoon, Chairwoman Krueger, 

11           Chair Weinstein, and distinguished members of 

12           the Legislature.  I am Mike Green, head of 

13           the Division of Criminal Justice Services.  

14           And again, thank you for inviting me to 

15           appear before you today.

16                  New York State is the second-safest 

17           large state in the nation, ranking just 

18           behind Pennsylvania.  While final crime 

19           numbers for 2020 are not yet complete, 

20           preliminary data shows that the total number 

21           of crimes reported will be similar to the 

22           historic low reported in 2019.  

23                  The COVID-19 global pandemic has 

24           placed extraordinary pressure on all 


                                                                   268

 1           New Yorkers.  The communities of color, 

 2           already facing a disproportionate share of 

 3           poverty and violence, have borne the brunt of 

 4           the virus's devastating impact.  Although 

 5           total crime did not increase during this 

 6           period, our state's largest cities 

 7           experienced a sharp rise in shooting and gun 

 8           deaths in 2020, a trend seen in large cities 

 9           across the country.  

10                  The 20 police departments 

11           participating in our GIVE, or Gun-Involved 

12           Violence Elimination initiative, reported a 

13           75 percent increase in shootings and an 

14           82 percent increase in gun homicides.  

15           Similar increases were also seen in New York 

16           City.

17                  Staff supported through GIVE, the SNUG 

18           Street Outreach program, and the 

19           Crime Analysis Center network are working 

20           tirelessly to address these increases through 

21           effective, evidence-based strategies, and 

22           have adapted their approach in light of the 

23           pandemic.  An innovative partnership with the 

24           State Office of Victim Services has allowed 


                                                                   269

 1           DCJS to establish a comprehensive social work 

 2           program within our SNUG sites.  

 3                  Through this $2.3 million investment 

 4           of federal funding, licensed social workers 

 5           and case managers are helping individuals and 

 6           families address long-term trauma resulting 

 7           from ongoing exposure to community violence.  

 8                  Last year, the killing of George Floyd 

 9           by a Minneapolis police officer ignited a 

10           renewed focus on social justice and racial 

11           inequality around the country.  In response, 

12           Governor Cuomo issued Executive Order 203, 

13           which requires local police agencies to 

14           engage community stakeholders in a 

15           collaborative process to reform and reinvent 

16           how they protect and serve their communities.  

17           This process must be open and transparent, 

18           and local governments must ratify or adopt 

19           such plans by local law or resolution by 

20           April 1st.  

21                  Strengthening police-community 

22           relationships and improving the fairness and 

23           effectiveness of the criminal justice system 

24           are foundations of DCJS's work.  In 


                                                                   270

 1           partnership with the Municipal Police 

 2           Training Council, the agency has developed 

 3           model policies to address critical issues, 

 4           such as body-worn cameras and use of force, 

 5           and recently completed a comprehensive update 

 6           of the basic training required for municipal 

 7           police recruits.  The 700-hour training now 

 8           includes procedural justice and implicit 

 9           bias, and emphasizes decision-making, 

10           communication and de-escalation skills.  

11                  DCJS has also partnered with the 

12           Office of Mental Health to revise and expand 

13           course components to improve outcomes for 

14           individuals with mental illness and enhance 

15           collaboration between police officers and 

16           crisis intervention services.  In addition, 

17           the agency worked with national experts to 

18           develop Principled Policing training, a 

19           comprehensive course focusing on procedural 

20           justice and implicit bias that is available 

21           to all police personnel.  

22                  DCJS also publishes comprehensive data 

23           on arrests, case outcomes and sentencing by 

24           race and ethnicity, so New Yorkers can see 


                                                                   271

 1           how the criminal justice system is operating 

 2           in their communities.  

 3                  Legislation enacted in 2019 allowed 

 4           DCJS to seal 3.2 million New York State 

 5           criminal records for arrests that resulted in 

 6           low-level convictions and arrests over five 

 7           years old that had no corresponding 

 8           dispositions.  As a result of this work, 

 9           nearly 800,000 individuals now have a clean 

10           record, with no New York State criminal 

11           history barring them from obtaining 

12           employment, housing or professional licenses.  

13                  Governor Cuomo's proposed budget also 

14           aims to strengthen the police profession, 

15           which further builds upon our work.  His 

16           comprehensive proposal establishes minimum 

17           hiring standards for police, subjects police 

18           agencies to the same training standards, 

19           enhances the police accreditation process, 

20           and strengthens the process for decertifying 

21           training certificates for officers who are 

22           terminated for engaging in serious 

23           misconduct.  

24                  The proposed Executive Budget also 


                                                                   272

 1           will allow DCJS to continue supporting the 

 2           criminal justice system across the state and 

 3           evidence-based programs that have received 

 4           national attention and distinguish New York 

 5           as a leader in effective public safety 

 6           policy.  

 7                  Most recently, the Giffords Law Center 

 8           to Prevent Gun Violence highlighted our 

 9           investment of federal funding in SNUG in a 

10           report advocating for changes in federal 

11           funding to better address community violence.  

12           The Pew Charitable Trusts showcased our 

13           Criminal Justice Knowledge Bank and Research 

14           Consortium, created to promote and expand the 

15           use of research and evidence by criminal 

16           justice professionals. 

17                  This budget also includes commonsense 

18           legislative changes:  Adding a new domestic 

19           violence misdemeanor to flag convictions that 

20           make individuals ineligible to purchase 

21           firearms; closing a federal loophole by 

22           prohibiting the purchase or acquisition of a 

23           rifle, shotgun, or firearm by any person who 

24           is subject of an active arrest warrant for a 


                                                                   273

 1           felony or misdemeanor offense; and requiring 

 2           law enforcement agencies to share firearm and 

 3           ballistic evidence through NIBIN and the 

 4           ATF's eTrace program, two important tools to 

 5           fight the increase in gun violence.  

 6                  Public safety is our highest priority.  

 7           This 2021-2022 Executive Budget proposal will 

 8           allow DCJS to continue its support for 

 9           programs and initiatives that promote 

10           fairness, respect and transparency in the 

11           state's criminal justice system, and help 

12           keep New Yorkers safe.  Your support of our 

13           work will allow the state to address gun 

14           violence, sustain its historic reductions in 

15           crime, and continue to reduce the number of 

16           individuals who enter the criminal justice 

17           system.  

18                  Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

19           with you today.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  You're muted, 

21           Senator Krueger.  

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  You know, if you 

23           move around, you can't get your unmute off.  

24           I apologize, everyone.


                                                                   274

 1                  And our chairs again for this speaker 

 2           are Senator Bailey and Assemblymember 

 3           Dinowitz.  So I'm going to give Senator 

 4           Bailey the first 10 minutes.  

 5                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Thank you, 

 6           Madam Chair.  

 7                  Executive Deputy Commissioner, thank 

 8           you for your testimony.

 9                  I'll jump right into it.  Obviously 

10           you mentioned George Floyd and policing, and 

11           it's obviously been something at the 

12           forefront of many of our minds, if not all of 

13           our minds, in the Legislature and not.

14                  And the protest that came about as a 

15           result of the murder, and I'll say the murder 

16           of George Floyd, resulted in what many of us 

17           believe to be significant violations related 

18           to use of force and kettling.  Does DCJS have 

19           any comment about use of force?  Because you 

20           mentioned it in some of your testimony 

21           before.  

22                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Well, I 

23           wouldn't comment on any specific cases 

24           because DCJS as a statutory agency doesn't 


                                                                   275

 1           have a role, for example, in disciplinary 

 2           process.

 3                  I can say generally that DCJS, working 

 4           with our partners and specifically the 

 5           Municipal Police Training Council, are very 

 6           focused on these issues.  I mentioned in our 

 7           testimony that we just finished a 

 8           comprehensive overhaul of the training that 

 9           basic recruits go through, the minimum 

10           standards.  It's now a 700-hour course.  You 

11           know, I think, frankly -- I'm obviously 

12           biased, but I think it's cutting-edge 

13           curriculum and incorporates things like 

14           explicit bias, procedural justice.  

15                  When it comes to use of force, 

16           throughout the entire training it emphasizes 

17           communication, it emphasizes deescalation, it 

18           emphasizes things like legitimacy.  

19                  You know, so throughout the training, 

20           throughout our work in the Principled 

21           Policing curriculum that I referred to, we've 

22           trained over 400 trainers.  That's a 

23           curriculum developed with national experts to 

24           really emphasize legitimacy, procedural 


                                                                   276

 1           justice, implicit bias.  Those 400 trainers 

 2           have now trained over 3,000 police officers.  

 3           We anticipate that that number will snowball 

 4           as we get more and more trainers out there.  

 5                  So we share your concerns for these 

 6           issues, and while we're not involved in the 

 7           adjudication or discipline of individual 

 8           incidents, we are working every day with our 

 9           local partners to really enhance the training 

10           and skill sets that are available.

11                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Understood.  So no 

12           opinion on controversial procedures such as 

13           kettling or the use of irritants when 

14           individuals, you know, were protesting?  

15                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Again, 

16           no, I'm not in a position to pass on 

17           individual incidents.  

18                  I'll just say that in general we're 

19           working very hard to -- you know, I think, 

20           given what you've described, our overall view 

21           in terms of the role that we would like to 

22           see for police in the community and the type 

23           of interaction we'd like to see between 

24           police and community has a lot of common 


                                                                   277

 1           ground.  And we're working very hard through 

 2           our platform, you know, with regard to 

 3           training to make sure that that viewpoint is 

 4           pushed out and emphasized.

 5                  SENATOR BAILEY:  That's fair.

 6                  So to the point of the Governor's plan 

 7           to make sure that there's some sort of a -- 

 8           that we have the reform by April 1st, have 

 9           any agencies submitted their plan yet?  

10                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Yes.  I 

11           don't have an exact number, but we are 

12           receiving plans and they're coming in faster 

13           every week.  

14                  In addition, we've done outreach -- 

15           and when I say "we," collectively, the 

16           administration -- to both municipalities and 

17           police agencies across the state.  We've 

18           offered assistance.  You know, I got an email 

19           just this morning from a police agency asking 

20           for assistance.  

21                  So, you know, we know that agencies 

22           and municipalities are actively engaged in 

23           this process.  We've received plans.  I know 

24           other municipalities have posted draft plans 


                                                                   278

 1           for comment on websites.  So it's a process 

 2           that, you know, folks across the state appear 

 3           to be very engaged in.

 4                  SENATOR BAILEY:  So for those who 

 5           haven't, and if they have an issue with that, 

 6           from my understanding that if they don't 

 7           submit it by April 1st there would be a 

 8           monitor that will be placed.  Would that be 

 9           accurate?

10                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So 

11           there's two pieces.  With the executive 

12           order, the executive order itself indicated 

13           that if a municipality fails to submit a plan 

14           that's been ratified or approved by the 

15           governing body by April 1st, there could be 

16           budgetary consequences, that funding could be 

17           withheld.  

18                  In addition, in the Governor's Article 

19           VII bills submitted with the budget, there is 

20           a proposal to allow for the appointment of a 

21           monitor for a police department or from a 

22           locality that has not submitted a plan.  That 

23           monitor would be appointed by the Attorney 

24           General, in consultation with the Governor, 


                                                                   279

 1           as I understand the proposed legislation.

 2                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  So with the 

 3           monitor, would you have any information about 

 4           the role and the duty of that monitor, the 

 5           extent of the monitoring period?

 6                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Nothing 

 7           beyond what's in the legislation itself, in 

 8           that it would be a monitor appointed by the 

 9           Attorney General, presumably working with the 

10           Attorney General {sic}.

11                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  Because as it 

12           is right now, it's rather nebulous.  And I 

13           was hoping that we could have a little more 

14           guidance about the nature of what the monitor 

15           would do.  

16                  But let's say that, you know, 

17           everybody puts their plans in, and that's 

18           great.  Are there plans to ensure that these 

19           departments comply with what has been -- with 

20           the plans that have been submitted?  And if 

21           so, what are those plans to ensure 

22           compliance?

23                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So far, 

24           according to either the executive order or 


                                                                   280

 1           legislation, there is no role that's dictated 

 2           for DCJS in terms of compliance.

 3                  That said, you know, we are very 

 4           dedicated and are working every day to try 

 5           and promote the work of fostering and 

 6           legitimizing police-community relations.  As 

 7           I've said, we've incorporated and are 

 8           incorporating it into our training.  I just 

 9           recorded a video yesterday that's going out 

10           to all law enforcement agencies across the 

11           state encouraging them to engage with us on 

12           work around legitimacy.  

13                  You know, so it's something that's 

14           built into our fabric.  We're pushing this 

15           and working with law enforcement on it every 

16           day.

17                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Certainly.  And I 

18           share your desire to ensure that we continue 

19           to do everything we can to bridge the gap 

20           between community and police relations.  

21                  And I think some of my colleagues in 

22           the Senate will speak more about uniformity, 

23           and I'll allow them to expound upon their own 

24           ideas.  But I wanted to switch briefly to gun 


                                                                   281

 1           violence.  And you mentioned gun violence is 

 2           a scourge in our communities and it's up at 

 3           astronomical rates.  

 4                  We have legislation that would qualify 

 5           gun violence as a public health issue.  Has 

 6           DCJS considered that?  And have there been 

 7           conversations between DCJS and the Department 

 8           of Health as that's related?

 9                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  We have 

10           not specifically weighed in on that piece of 

11           legislation.  

12                  But I can tell you that we at DCJS 

13           have viewed gun violence as a public health 

14           issue, you know, certainly since I've been at 

15           DCJS.  And I think there's no better 

16           reflection of that than the project I 

17           mentioned where we've partnered with the 

18           Office of Victim Services and used 

19           $2.3 million in funding to provide social 

20           workers and case managers, not only to 11 of 

21           the SNUG programs across the state so that 

22           they are embedded within the SNUG programs 

23           and working hand in hand with the outreach 

24           workers, but also in four of the major trauma 


                                                                   282

 1           centers across the state -- Erie Medical 

 2           Center, Upstate Medical Center in Syracuse, 

 3           Albany Medical Center, and Jacobi.  

 4                  That program also embeds SNUG social 

 5           workers in the medical centers so that you 

 6           have a direct connection between folks who go 

 7           into the medical centers and the SNUG 

 8           program, you know, in a warm hand-off to make 

 9           sure that folks aren't lost in the process.  

10                  So, you know, we truly do view gun 

11           violence as a public health problem, and 

12           we're looking for and pushing comprehensive 

13           and holistic solutions that align with that 

14           view.

15                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Undoubtedly.  And the 

16           SUV program is just outside of my district.  

17           Pastor Jay Gooding and the folks at SUV, 

18           Stand Up to Violence, do a phenomenal job, as 

19           does the SNUG program in the City of 

20           Mount Vernon and throughout the state.  

21                  So to that point, $4.9 million for 

22           SNUG.  I'd like to see SNUG or programs like 

23           that replicated upstate, in the Hudson Valley 

24           as well.  Do you believe that $4.9 million is 


                                                                   283

 1           adequate for SNUG funding?  

 2                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  These 

 3           are tough questions, and I think I've said 

 4           this for the last several years.  Because as 

 5           you know, the problems that our communities 

 6           face are huge.  And if there were an 

 7           unlimited pot of money, you know, we could 

 8           find good use for, you know, all of the 

 9           resources.  

10                  But I think if you look 

11           historically -- you know, when I started at 

12           DCJS the funding for SNUG I believe was 

13           somewhere between $1 million and $2 million.  

14           You know, and with your assistance it's now 

15           grown to almost $5 million.  In addition, 

16           we've been able to leverage the $2.3 million 

17           in the Office of Victim Services.  So in 

18           total, our support for the SNUG organizations 

19           across the state exceed $7 million -- I think 

20           it's about $7.2 million.

21                  So, you know, while there's always 

22           room for more, I think that's a tremendous 

23           investment that all of you have made in those 

24           programs.  The programs have grown.  We've 


                                                                   284

 1           been able to increase the number of programs 

 2           across the state.  We're now up to 12 SNUG 

 3           programs.  We've been able to increase the 

 4           size of the programs.  In cities with very 

 5           high rates of shootings like Buffalo, 

 6           Syracuse, Rochester, we've been able to 

 7           basically double the number of staff working 

 8           in those SNUG programs in addition to the 

 9           staff we've been able to put in by adding the 

10           social work component.

11                  So I agree that these are incredibly 

12           important programs.  You know, and I think 

13           that the growth in the programs and the 

14           growth in the level of investment, the fact 

15           that we now invest $7.2 million -- and, 

16           frankly, the fact that the Giffords Law 

17           Center, you know, twice now has held our 

18           funding and support of the SNUG programs out 

19           as a national example represents the fact 

20           that we really are doing good work in this 

21           area.

22                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Thank you, 

23           Commissioner.  I implore you to continue 

24           expanding it.  


                                                                   285

 1                  And Madam Chair, if I may, I'll come 

 2           back for a second round if questions aren't 

 3           already asked.  

 4                  Thank you for your testimony, 

 5           Commissioner.

 6                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Thank 

 7           you, Senator.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 9           much.  

10                  Assembly?  

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to our 

12           Codes chair, Assemblyman Dinowitz.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Thank you.  

14                  I want to get back to the police 

15           monitor, because I've looked at it and to me 

16           it's very vague.  It says the monitor will be 

17           appointed by the AG, in consultation with the 

18           Governor, to oversee, in quotes, the 

19           operations of the police agency if they fail 

20           to comply with Executive Order 203.  

21                  What exactly does "oversee" mean?

22                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  My 

23           understanding is that the focus of the 

24           executive order is to get police departments 


                                                                   286

 1           and communities to engage in a collaborative 

 2           process and develop a plan where departments 

 3           and communities can build on and enhance the 

 4           relationships.  

 5                  The monitor would be appointed if 

 6           jurisdictions do not engage in and complete 

 7           that process -- or could be appointed if they 

 8           don't.

 9                  So it's my understanding that the 

10           focus of the monitorship would be around 

11           making sure that that process is in place, is 

12           moving along and that communities and police 

13           departments are working together to really 

14           enhance police-community relationships and 

15           move police community relations forward.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  So it says that 

17           the AG must consult with the Governor on the 

18           appointment of the monitor.  Who exactly is 

19           really appointing the monitor?  Is it the AG 

20           or is it the Governor?

21                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Again, I 

22           can just go by the language of the proposed 

23           regulation.  As you just indicated, it's the 

24           AG that does the appointing and it's done in 


                                                                   287

 1           consultation with the Governor.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Right.  All I 

 3           can go by is the language also, and the 

 4           language is just not that clear.

 5                  Would the monitor be expected to 

 6           report to the Budget Director in terms of 

 7           possible withholding of funds?

 8                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  As I 

 9           understand it, those two are separate.  The 

10           withholding of funds is in the executive 

11           order, so that's already in place.  

12                  The monitor is a proposal.  You know, 

13           so whether or not the monitor ultimately is 

14           passed, the funding lever exists, and I 

15           anticipate the Division of Budget would be 

16           looking at that independent of the monitor.

17                  Now, that said, you know, if there's a 

18           monitor appointed and the monitor reports on 

19           information that's relevant, I would 

20           certainly assume that the Division of Budget 

21           would consider all relevant information 

22           around both the process, the progress the 

23           jurisdiction is making on the process, and 

24           the police-community relations in the 


                                                                   288

 1           jurisdiction in making their decisions.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Okay.  I want 

 3           to switch gears.  I want to talk about police 

 4           reform proposals.  

 5                  The proposal says it would require law 

 6           enforcement officers to comply with 

 7           background check standards that include a 

 8           criminal history check, a mental health exam, 

 9           prior employment and review of previous 

10           police officer misconduct.  

11                  What background check standards are 

12           law enforcement agents currently required to 

13           comply with in relation to hiring new police 

14           officers?

15                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  There 

16           are no comprehensive uniform state standards 

17           in terms of background checks right now.  

18           Many departments have robust standards, you 

19           know, but there's 550-something police 

20           departments, give or take, in the state.  

21                  To give you a good example, right now 

22           a criminal history, a fingerprint-based 

23           criminal history background check is not a 

24           state legal requirement in the hiring process 


                                                                   289

 1           of police officers.

 2                  You know, I think most departments do 

 3           it.  Accredited police departments have to do 

 4           it, because it's built into the standard 

 5           there.  But accreditation is voluntary.

 6                  So what this proposal would do would 

 7           be to task the municipal police training 

 8           council with developing comprehensive 

 9           standards that agencies have to abide by.  

10           And then, you know, by law agencies would 

11           have to abide by those minimum standards in 

12           hiring.  They would include things like, as 

13           you indicated, criminal history background 

14           check, mental health, physical health, moral 

15           fitness.  And among other things, require 

16           that check to include looking into whether or 

17           not that officer has been terminated for 

18           cause from other departments in the past.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  How is 

20           information relating to police officer 

21           misconduct currently reported?  I mean, is 

22           there like a central database so that it 

23           could easily be checked if somebody is 

24           applying for a job anywhere in the state?


                                                                   290

 1                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So 

 2           currently DCJS keeps a registry of police 

 3           officers and peace officers.  And there is a 

 4           requirement, some grounded in statute, some 

 5           grounded in regulation, that departments 

 6           report to DCJS when a police officer is 

 7           removed for cause.  

 8                  Unfortunately, that process is not 

 9           currently as tight as it should be.  And for 

10           example if a -- and we have real-life 

11           examples where this happened:  An officer was 

12           convicted after a jury trial of assault, 

13           unlawful imprisonment, and falsifying his 

14           police report in connection with the assault 

15           on a citizen while he was working as a police 

16           officer.

17                  That was reported to us as a straight 

18           resignation, and it was reported that the 

19           officer had resigned the day before the jury 

20           verdict took place.

21                  Right now, under current law, DCJS is 

22           bound by whatever is reported to us.  So even 

23           though we knew that that officer had been 

24           convicted by a jury in a court of this state 


                                                                   291

 1           of those crimes while working as a police 

 2           officer, it went on the registry as a 

 3           straight resignation and not a removal for 

 4           cause.  

 5                  This proposal would tighten up that 

 6           process so that in situations like that, you 

 7           know, where an officer (A) has left the 

 8           department and (B) it's clear from reliable 

 9           evidence, like a certificate of conviction, 

10           that that removal was for serious misconduct, 

11           the officer's training certificate could be 

12           invalidated and the officer would be barred 

13           from obtaining a new training certificate.

14                  That's another, you know, current -- I 

15           hate to use "loophole," but for lack of a 

16           better word.  In cases where it's properly 

17           reported to us that an officer has been 

18           removed for cause right now, that officer's 

19           training certificate -- again, by law and 

20           regulation -- is invalidated, but there is 

21           nothing to stop the officer from going back 

22           through the academy, obtaining a new training 

23           certificate, and being rehired by another 

24           department.


                                                                   292

 1                  This proposal that the Governor has 

 2           put forward would bar officers who have been 

 3           removed for cause and had their training 

 4           certificate invalidated from obtaining a new 

 5           one.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  The Governor's 

 7           proposals will create more work, presumably.  

 8           Is DCJS equipped to handle the potential 

 9           influx of extra work that the Governor's 

10           proposal is talking about here?

11                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  It will 

12           create more work.  You know, obviously we 

13           have plenty of work already.

14                  There are provisions in the budget for 

15           six -- or for up to six additional positions 

16           at DCJS, as needed, to handle the extra 

17           workload.  

18                  And we certainly are ready and 

19           prepared, you know, to implement these 

20           proposals if passed and enacted into law.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  So this might 

22           be a little more specific question.  Under 

23           the proposal, the commissioner would be 

24           authorized to consider reliable hearsay 


                                                                   293

 1           evidence of misconduct in making a 

 2           determination to update the central registry 

 3           of police and peace officers in relation to 

 4           an officer who is no longer in service.

 5                  How is "reliable hearsay evidence" 

 6           defined in this proposal?  

 7                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  It's not 

 8           defined in the proposal.  

 9                  But I can tell you from my 

10           interpretation, my experience -- the example 

11           I gave you where we learn that a police 

12           officer is convicted in a New York State 

13           court of assault, unlawful imprisonment, 

14           falsifying a report, we get a certificate of 

15           conviction from that court affirming that in 

16           fact that officer was convicted.  You know, 

17           to me, that's reliable hearsay.

18                  Another piece of this proposal 

19           requires the Attorney General -- and under 

20           the new Attorney General powers that take 

21           effect April 1st of this year that you all 

22           enacted last year that give them the power to 

23           investigate misconduct by police officers, if 

24           the Attorney General -- this proposal 


                                                                   294

 1           requires the Attorney General's Office to 

 2           report the findings of those investigations 

 3           to DCJS.  If the Attorney General made 

 4           findings of serious misconduct by a police 

 5           officer and that police officer was removed, 

 6           a formal communication from the Attorney 

 7           General's Office regarding their process and 

 8           their findings, again, to me, would be 

 9           something that would fall under the rubric of 

10           reliable hearsay.  

11                  So it's that type of information 

12           that's envisioned -- a certificate of 

13           conviction from a court, a formal 

14           communication from the Attorney General's 

15           Office.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Okay, I have 45 

17           seconds.  I'm going to ask you a very quick 

18           question.  This may seem out of left field -- 

19           or right field.

20                  Suppose it was determined that a 

21           police officer of New York State took part in 

22           the coup attempt in D.C. earlier this month.  

23           Is there a ramification for that, that could 

24           be certain?


                                                                   295

 1                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So the 

 2           initial responsibility for that lies with the 

 3           individual departments that employ the 

 4           officers.  They have disciplinary processes.  

 5           Some of them have been negotiated through 

 6           collective bargaining.  

 7                  These provisions kick in for officers 

 8           who have been removed for cause.  So the 

 9           first part of that is remove.  So if an 

10           officer were removed for participating in 

11           that event and the removal involved serious 

12           misconduct, then yes, this proposal could be 

13           implicated.  

14                  But the first part would lie with the 

15           department in terms of the removal.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Okay.  Thank 

17           you very much.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

19                  Back to the Senate, I believe.  

20                  Senator Savino.

21                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you, 

22           Senator Krueger.

23                  Commissioner, I will be brief because 

24           I only have three minutes.  


                                                                   296

 1                  I notice in your testimony you 

 2           referenced this new training, that in 

 3           partnership with the Municipal Police 

 4           Training Council that you have developed this 

 5           700-hour training that now includes 

 6           procedural justice and implicit bias, 

 7           et cetera.  

 8                  Is this basic training for entry-level 

 9           officers, or is it mandatory, is it going to 

10           be required?  Or is it just offered to the 

11           localities?  

12                  Because I've done some research and I 

13           introduced a bill yesterday that -- and I 

14           found out that, you know, New York State has 

15           over 500 police departments.  Some have 

16           statewide jurisdiction, as you know -- like 

17           the New York State Police, the MTA -- and 

18           most of them are small villages and town 

19           departments.  

20                  All 62 counties and the City of 

21           New York have multiple departments within 

22           their boundaries, with possible overlapping 

23           jurisdictions.  But there's no mandatory 

24           statewide minimum training standards.  So 


                                                                   297

 1           I've introduced a bill that would actually 

 2           replace the Municipal Training Council with 

 3           another structure and develop a statewide 

 4           mandatory training council to develop these 

 5           types of trainings.  

 6                  So can you describe to me what you 

 7           guys have worked on?  And would this be a 

 8           requirement for every department, for every 

 9           police officer, with continuing training 

10           through the course of their career?  Because 

11           from what I've found is that many cops go for 

12           their initial training when they're hired and 

13           oftentimes don't have continuing training 

14           during the course of their career, whether 

15           it's in firearms training or it could even be 

16           implicit bias training or conflict 

17           resolution.

18                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So the 

19           700-hour curriculum that I referred to by 

20           statute applies to municipal police 

21           departments.  And currently -- you know, for 

22           example, the State Police is not a municipal 

23           police department, it's a state department.

24                  There's also an exception under 


                                                                   298

 1           current law that exempts departments in 

 2           cities of over a million, so with regard to 

 3           NYPD.  The Governor's proposal would 

 4           eliminate that language, so NYPD would be 

 5           covered and almost all of the 550 

 6           municipal -- well, all of the 550 or more 

 7           municipal police departments would be 

 8           covered.

 9                  That training is the basic training 

10           that every new officer who is hired has to 

11           undergo.  So right now that minimum 700-hour 

12           basic training applies to all municipal 

13           police departments, with the exception of 

14           NYPD.  Under the Governor's proposal, it 

15           would also apply to NYPD.

16                  Departments are free to train above 

17           that standard if they want, but they have to 

18           at least train to that standard.

19                  SENATOR SAVINO:  And this would be for 

20           new officers?  

21                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  That's 

22           for new officers.  

23                  With regard to continuing education 

24           for existing officers, the New York State 


                                                                   299

 1           Accreditation Program -- and that's a 

 2           voluntary accreditation.  About 60 percent of 

 3           the officers in the state outside of New York 

 4           City work for accredited programs.  Any 

 5           accredited agency, those officers have to 

 6           have 21 hours per year of continuing 

 7           education in order for the department to 

 8           maintain their accreditation.  

 9                  But there is no legislated state 

10           standard for continuing education right now, 

11           with the exception of a supervisor's course.  

12           There's a legal requirement for municipal 

13           police departments that anyone being promoted 

14           into a supervisory role will take the basic 

15           course for supervisors, which is also a 

16           curriculum set by the Municipal Police 

17           Training Council.

18                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you.  My time's 

19           up.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

21                  Assembly.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

23           Assemblywoman Walker.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  Good afternoon, 


                                                                   300

 1           and thank you so much.  

 2                  I have two -- two questions.  I do 

 3           want to associate my comments with my 

 4           colleagues in the Senate who have spoken 

 5           before, as well as our chairman.

 6                  But one of the things that I 

 7           noticed -- again, to follow up on Senator 

 8           Bailey's notion with respect to SNUG and Cure 

 9           Violence programs.  So I was combing through 

10           to attempt to find where there is an 

11           association of the rise in gun violence -- 

12           and I see that you said there's a 75 percent 

13           uptick in shootings and an 85 percent uptick 

14           in gun-related homicides.  

15                  However, the budget request or item 

16           for SNUG-related resources stayed at 

17           4.9 million, which does not work with the 

18           rash of gun violence that we've been working 

19           on.

20                  So I just wanted your thoughts on the 

21           idea of maybe being able to push for more 

22           resources as commensurate with the rising 

23           crime that we've been experiencing.  

24                  And also just had a quick question 


                                                                   301

 1           about marijuana arrests, incarceration and 

 2           people who are presently on parole.  Is that 

 3           information kept with the Division of 

 4           Criminal Justice Services as it relates to -- 

 5           as designated by race in terms of the impact 

 6           of marijuana arrests, incarceration and 

 7           parole?

 8                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So two 

 9           questions, if I understand, and I'll try and 

10           answer both of them.  And thank you for the 

11           questions.  I appreciate them.

12                  First, as to funding, you know, I 

13           think (A), you know, as I mentioned before, 

14           you have to keep the historical context in 

15           mind here.  And I think we've greatly 

16           increased the funding for programs like SNUG 

17           over time.  You know, with the Office of 

18           Victim Services investment we're up to $7.2 

19           million in funding for our SNUG programs.  

20                  If you look at states across the 

21           country, I think that level of funding dwarfs 

22           what most other states do.  And I think 

23           that's why we've been recognized nationally 

24           for our investment in these programs.


                                                                   302

 1                  I think that as important as spending 

 2           money on programs is making sure that we're 

 3           spending that money smartly.  And DCJS has 

 4           been very focused on using, for example, 

 5           Byrne JAG funding and other funding to 

 6           augment the money in the budget for those 

 7           programs.  And so in addition to the money we 

 8           provide for municipalities, we spend money 

 9           out of things like Byrne JAG to provide 

10           training, to provide technical assistance, to 

11           provide support.  

12                  And we've managed to incorporate into 

13           the DCJS budget over the years money for a 

14           statewide director for the SNUG program, 

15           money for a statewide training director.  We 

16           have a statewide director for the social work 

17           program.  We've written our own training 

18           programs for both the social work and other 

19           side.  So the investment is growing.  

20                  In addition, there's $5 million that 

21           can be used out of the discovery and pretrial 

22           funding at least proposed for this 

23           coming-year budget to address gun violence.

24                  In terms of the marijuana, we have 


                                                                   303

 1           statistics on our website broken down by race 

 2           and ethnicity.  If you want specific 

 3           information with regard to marijuana by race 

 4           and ethnicity, we do have that, if you reach 

 5           out to our office we'd be happy to get it for 

 6           you.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  Awesome.  So 

 8           please do send it to me.  But also please put 

 9           it and associate all of that with respect to 

10           any conversations regarding the taxation of 

11           marijuana here in the state.  Because of 

12           course my district, and particularly 

13           communities of color all across the state 

14           have been overly policed and overly affected 

15           by marijuana arrests, incarceration and 

16           parole.

17                  Thank you.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you, 

19           Assemblywoman.  

20                  Back to the Senate.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

22                  We've been joined by Senator Cooney, 

23           but our next Senator to ask questions is 

24           Senator Reichlin-Melnick.


                                                                   304

 1                  SENATOR REICHLIN-MELNICK:   Thank you, 

 2           Madam Chair.  

 3                  So, Commissioner, thanks for joining 

 4           us today.  I wanted to ask you a little bit 

 5           about the Securing Communities Against Hate 

 6           Crimes grant program.  This is a program 

 7           since 2017 that has provided funds to improve 

 8           security at religious organizations, 

 9           including nonprofit daycare centers, 

10           community centers and residential and day 

11           camps, and protect them from hate crimes.

12                  So the current 2020-2021 budget that 

13           we're on now included $25 million for these 

14           grants, but I understand that there has not 

15           been a request for proposals put out yet by 

16           DCJS.  Do you know when DCJS is planning to 

17           put out an RFP?  

18                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I 

19           believe you're correct in terms of the 

20           timeline and the information.  We've been 

21           working with the Division of Budget and 

22           Homeland Security.  It's my understanding 

23           that Homeland Security is still working on 

24           the prior round of funding.  You know, and 


                                                                   305

 1           when that's complete and done, we'll be 

 2           prepared to move forward with the next year's 

 3           funding.

 4                  SENATOR REICHLIN-MELNICK:  And so with 

 5           regard to those funds from 2019 and '20, do 

 6           you know if that was fully expanded?  Have 

 7           those contracts been paid out?  Or it sounds 

 8           like they're still in the works.  

 9                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  That is 

10           Homeland Security.  2021 is the first year it 

11           was moved to DCJS.  Just -- it's my 

12           understanding they're still actively working 

13           on that round of funding.  But I'd have to 

14           defer any other questions to Commissioner 

15           Murphy.

16                  SENATOR REICHLIN-MELNICK:  Okay.  I 

17           appreciate that.  I mean, this is just 

18           because we're seeing this sort of rising tide 

19           of right-wing extremism in the country, and 

20           so there are a lot of places of worship 

21           especially that may feel threatened.  And I 

22           think it is important that we get the money 

23           out the door if we've got worthwhile 

24           recipients here who need these funds to help 


                                                                   306

 1           keep their -- you know, their congregations 

 2           safe and help keep schools safe and other 

 3           places like that from violence.

 4                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  You 

 5           know, I certainly appreciate your concern and 

 6           can assure you that we have been working on 

 7           this since the budget passed last year, and 

 8           are working closely with Homeland Security.  

 9           You know, so as soon as it's ready, we'll be 

10           ready to go.

11                  SENATOR REICHLIN-MELNICK:  Do you know 

12           why the program was shifted from Homeland 

13           Security over to DCJS?  

14                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I do 

15           not.  

16                  It's my understanding that the 

17           appropriation may have changed slightly, it 

18           may have expanded slightly to include 

19           additional grantees.  So, you know, it's 

20           possible there's some thinking that DCJS, you 

21           know, had more expertise with regard to those 

22           grantees.  But I can't say for sure why it 

23           shifted.

24                  SENATOR REICHLIN-MELNICK:   And I 


                                                                   307

 1           guess I also just finally want to note I'm 

 2           quite concerned because I understand in the 

 3           current budget proposal from the Governor 

 4           there is not additional funding provided for 

 5           this for the next budget year, and that 

 6           concerns me.  

 7                  I just want to know if you have any 

 8           idea why -- why are we cutting back on 

 9           funding, again at a time when there are more 

10           threats and the FBI and federal Department of 

11           Justice are identifying rising threats to 

12           minority and religious communities with 

13           extremist actions?  

14                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Well, I 

15           can't directly address the question.  

16                  I do know that this funding has been 

17           made available for many years.  I think this 

18           might be the fifth -- last year's money may 

19           have been the fifth year, if I'm not 

20           mistaken.  So there have been significant 

21           amounts of funds made available, but I can't 

22           directly answer.

23                  SENATOR REICHLIN-MELNICK:   All right.  

24           Thank you very much for your time.


                                                                   308

 1                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Thank 

 2           you.  

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 4                  Assembly.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

 6           Assemblyman Reilly.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Thank you, 

 8           Madam Chair.  

 9                  Good afternoon, Deputy Commissioner.  

10           Thank you so much for your testimony.  

11                  I actually wanted to raise a couple of 

12           questions.  I'm just going to read them off 

13           to you, and hopefully you can comment on 

14           them.  

15                  The first has to be about Raise the 

16           Age.  I was wondering if there's any data 

17           that DCJS has in regards to Raise the Age and 

18           the impact of cases that have gone to Family 

19           Court.  

20                  And I didn't get a chance to mention 

21           this under the -- with the Court 

22           Administration earlier, but I was hoping that 

23           maybe you can nudge this a little too.  It's 

24           in regards to that question.  We were waiting 


                                                                   309

 1           for Staten Island to get upgrades to our 

 2           Family Court building, and I think this would 

 3           be -- there was supposed to be some funding 

 4           that's been in place since 2017, and it 

 5           hasn't been allocated yet and it hasn't moved 

 6           forward.  So I'm hoping that you can nudge a 

 7           little on that.

 8                  And the second part that I wanted to 

 9           ask about was about the legalization of -- 

10           the potential legalization of marijuana.

11                  With my prior experience in the NYPD, 

12           one of the concerns -- two of the concerns 

13           that I really have is the driving while 

14           impaired, and I know that there's no real 

15           testing right now.  So I'm hoping that we can 

16           incorporate a DRE-type program.  And I know 

17           that it's very expensive to train those 

18           officers.  

19                  Just to put it into perspective for my 

20           colleagues and anyone that's listening, New 

21           York City has 35,000 police officers, 

22           approximately, and there's only 16 DREs, drug 

23           recognition experts, covering the whole city.  

24           But that's for anyone that's actually under 


                                                                   310

 1           arrest for driving while under the influence.  

 2           So then the testing would be done afterwards.  

 3                  I'm looking for something that would 

 4           be more along the lines of on-the-street 

 5           recognition.  You know, the NYPD has a 

 6           program operated by Sergeant Schneider and 

 7           Police Officer Kessler from their highway 

 8           unit that does a modified DRE program, it's a 

 9           four-hour class that I think would really 

10           help.  If we are really going to potentially 

11           legalize adult-use marijuana, it should be 

12           done in a responsible way, and that's part of 

13           the issue.

14                  Some of the other things that I have 

15           concerns about is the black-market trade on 

16           the street.  One of the first homicides that 

17           I dealt with as a rookie sergeant in East 

18           Flatbush was a young 16-year-old man who was 

19           shot in the chest and succumbed to his 

20           injuries.  I was leaning over him as he 

21           passed, and I found out that -- later on that 

22           it was in connection to a weed location, a 

23           marijuana location, a fight over turf.  

24                  So these are the things that we really 


                                                                   311

 1           have to address and have -- and be mindful 

 2           of.

 3                  The other thing is under-21 driving 

 4           with marijuana, hopefully that we can 

 5           coordinate with the Department of Motor 

 6           Vehicles to ensure that anyone under 21 that 

 7           operates a vehicle while under the influence 

 8           will have an administrative hearing and 

 9           potentially lose their license for a 

10           suspension, like they do with alcohol.  

11                  So thank you so much for listening.  

12           And if you can get back to me with those 

13           answers, because I think my time is up.

14                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I will 

15           do that.  And we do share a common 

16           background; I spent 22 years prosecuting 

17           homicide cases.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Thank you, sir. 

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Back to the 

20           Senate.  Do you have anyone else?  

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  We do.  Thank 

22           you, Assemblymember.

23                  We have Tom O'Mara, the ranker on 

24           Finance.


                                                                   312

 1                  THE MODERATOR:  I'm not sure if he's 

 2           with us right now.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Oh.  Okay.  Then 

 4           I'm going to jump to me.  

 5                  I only have a couple of questions for 

 6           you.

 7                  So obviously you know that down in New 

 8           York City, where I'm from and many of us are 

 9           from, there's been quite a bit of 

10           disagreement about different policies of NYPD 

11           and reform of police and even getting our 

12           arms around what you do when something bad 

13           happens.  So apparently there's a new 

14           proposal about implementing new policies with 

15           the Civilian Complaint Review Board.  And I'm 

16           curious whether you've had a chance to review 

17           that and what your opinion is.

18                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  It's my 

19           understanding, if I'm understanding your 

20           question right, those are local proposals 

21           dealing with City Council.  You know, and 

22           while I have reviewed them, you know, it's 

23           not something I can weigh in on.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  But you 


                                                                   313

 1           would agree this is a continuing hot topic 

 2           for everyone who's running for mayor or City 

 3           Council or DA in the city.

 4                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I think 

 5           not only is it a hot topic, but there's 

 6           research that's been established for over 30 

 7           years now, the main body of it coming from 

 8           Tracey Meares and Tom Tyler out of Yale, that 

 9           if you don't have legitimacy and you don't 

10           have trust between police departments and law 

11           enforcement and, frankly, the criminal 

12           justice system and the communities that they 

13           serve, you're not going to make significant 

14           headway with regard to crime.

15                  So, you know, it's just -- it's 

16           just -- it's a crucial issue.  If we want to 

17           have safe communities, it's something we need 

18           to focus on.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I agree with you.  

20           Thank you.

21                  So for about 18 years now, I've been 

22           voting against every peace officer bill that 

23           comes before me in the Senate, mostly because 

24           I can't figure out what the heck everyone 


                                                                   314

 1           thinks the training and the qualifications 

 2           for these people would be.  I just know that 

 3           the end of the sentence is always:  If you 

 4           figure out how to get them to be a peace 

 5           officer, then they'll have a gun.

 6                  So in your new envisionment of 

 7           700 hours of training instructing a police 

 8           officer anywhere in the State of New York, 

 9           where would peace officers fit in this world?  

10           Or do they?  

11                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  There 

12           are separate minimum training standards for 

13           peace officers.  And I don't know the exact 

14           hours, but it is not 700.  You know, it's 

15           many hundreds of hours less than that.  

16                  And it's my recollection that there 

17           are two separate training standards for peace 

18           officers, one for peace officers and then a 

19           second one for peace officers who wish to 

20           carry firearms, and that training program has 

21           minimum standards above and beyond the peace 

22           officer program.  But that's a separate 

23           program that's not as rigorous as the 

24           700-hour curriculum for police officers.


                                                                   315

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And do you have 

 2           concerns about people with less training 

 3           somehow having what's perceived as police 

 4           authority and the ability to carry a gun?  I 

 5           know with some of the bills over the years 

 6           it's been the right to chase, in a car, 

 7           suspects; the right to search and seize 

 8           without warrants, et cetera, et cetera.  

 9                  I mean, isn't it sort of -- doesn't it 

10           surprise you that we would have all these 

11           different standards for all these different 

12           people all over the state?

13                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I think 

14           your question, you know, really focuses on 

15           the issue, and that is that people need to be 

16           aware of when you give someone peace officer 

17           powers, it means one thing, and there's a 

18           certain minimum level of training that goes 

19           along with that.  And when you give someone 

20           police officer powers, it means something 

21           different.  And there is additional 

22           responsibilities and powers that go with it, 

23           and there's additional training.  

24                  And to your point, yes, I think we 


                                                                   316

 1           need to be very thoughtful about who we're 

 2           giving peace officer powers to and who we're 

 3           giving police officer powers to, because 

 4           those powers, you know, are significant, 

 5           they're different, there's different levels 

 6           of training.  And, you know, I think you're 

 7           right to focus on that.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 9                  Assembly.  

10                  (No response.)

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Maybe not.  Let's 

12           see, where did Helene go?

13                  THE MODERATOR:  I do believe we have 

14           Assemblymember Ra up next on her list.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you so 

16           much.

17                  (Overtalk.)

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you for being 

19           here today.  I just had a few questions going 

20           back to -- you mentioned in your opening 

21           remarks something that I think we're familiar 

22           with.  Many of the large cities in the state 

23           have had, you know, really remarkable 

24           increases in murders, in gun crimes, in 


                                                                   317

 1           shootings.  You know, and it's alarming.  

 2                  And I'm just wondering if you have, 

 3           you know, any thoughts as to what may be 

 4           causing that, given that, you know, we 

 5           have -- overall, you mentioned crime being 

 6           down, we had months of last year where people 

 7           were largely, you know, in their homes 

 8           because of the pandemic.  Yet we see these -- 

 9           you know, these data points, and they are 

10           very alarming.

11                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So I 

12           don't know that I can opine directly on 

13           what's causing it, but I think I can share 

14           some relevant data points, I hope.

15                  First of all, I think it's very 

16           important to keep this in context.  While 

17           shootings and gun-related homicides are up 

18           and homicides are up, the last three years 

19           have been historic lows.  We topped out at 

20           about 2600 homicides a year in New York State 

21           in the early '90s; the last three years we 

22           had less than 600 a year, we had about 550 a 

23           year.  

24                  So when we say they're up, they're up 


                                                                   318

 1           against our all-time historic low.  I think 

 2           we're going to come in somewhere between 800 

 3           and 840 homicides for the year when we 

 4           collect the chart, which is a terrible 

 5           increase from our historic low last year, but 

 6           still substantially below, you know, what we 

 7           were experiencing in the early '90s, you 

 8           know, when I was a line prosecutor 

 9           prosecuting homicide cases.

10                  So I just think it's important, first 

11           of all, to keep the historical perspective.

12                  You know, secondly, when we look at 

13           what's happening, overall crime in 2020, 

14           reported indexed crime is about flat.  The 

15           one place we're seeing -- well, places we're 

16           seeing increases is violent -- crime is about 

17           flat, but firearm-related crime is up, 

18           shootings are up, and firearm-related 

19           homicides are up.  

20                  So when you look at, you know, what's 

21           driving that, one important thing I think is 

22           to look across the country.  It's not just 

23           New York State that's experiencing this.  We 

24           see similar numbers in major cities across 


                                                                   319

 1           the country.

 2                  And then secondly, you know, when you 

 3           look at, again, what's driving it, is it -- 

 4           you know, people ask is it the reforms we 

 5           passed, is it, you know, something else.  

 6           We're not seeing it -- you know, bail reform, 

 7           for example, really focused on misdemeanors 

 8           and nonviolent felonies.  It made the biggest 

 9           change there.  We're not seeing any movement 

10           in that regard.  We're just seeing it in the 

11           firearm-related crime.  

12                  And so I think looking at things like 

13           COVID and the impact of COVID, looking at 

14           George Floyd and the issues around racial 

15           equality, to me, you know, that correlation 

16           at this point seems to be stronger.  But I 

17           think we're going to need more time, frankly, 

18           to look at that over time and really draw any 

19           solid conclusions.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Yeah, and I -- I 

21           mean, I think -- you know, I'm sure you 

22           recall last year at this hearing there was a 

23           lot of talk about bail reform and things like 

24           that, and we were fairly early in the year 


                                                                   320

 1           and there were some statistics out there that 

 2           were showing an uptick, and kind of it was 

 3           like, okay, well, let's wait and see when we 

 4           have full data.  Obviously the world has 

 5           changed in tremendous ways since then with 

 6           the pandemic and a lot of other things that 

 7           have gone on.

 8                  So thank you for that answer.  It is 

 9           alarming, those numbers in and of themselves.  

10           And then when you add to it some of the 

11           proposals in this budget that are reducing 

12           crime prevention and reduction programs.  And 

13           certainly this potential for municipalities 

14           to lose money for policing, you know, is a 

15           concern, given these alarming increases.

16                  The one other thing I wanted to ask 

17           you about -- I don't know if you could shed 

18           any light on this within the department, but 

19           one of the things we talked about a lot in 

20           the regard of the criminal justice reforms 

21           was discovery last year.  And if you know 

22           anything about how -- you know, there was 

23           this funding that was put in, and what is 

24           going on with that and whether the funding is 


                                                                   321

 1           going out the door or was subject to any of 

 2           the withholdings that went on to try to 

 3           balance the budget due to the revenue 

 4           shortfalls.

 5                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Sure.  

 6           So just to clarify, DCJS local assistance 

 7           funding has not been cut.  In fact, DCJS 

 8           local assistance funding has been increased, 

 9           and the increase is due to that discovery 

10           fund that you've referred to.  But our other 

11           programs have remained flat, you know, in the 

12           face of cuts elsewhere.

13                  In terms of the discovery funding, 

14           1.75 million of that was awarded to the 

15           New York Prosecutors Training Institute to 

16           support their DEMS system, which all the 

17           prosecutor's offices across the state can use 

18           for discovery.  And award notices went out to 

19           the 57 counties outside of New York City just 

20           recently, giving them their award allocation 

21           to support both discovery reform and pretrial 

22           services.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.


                                                                   322

 1                  Senator Brad Hoylman.

 2                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you, 

 3           Madam Chair.

 4                  Nice to see you, Commissioner.

 5                  In 2020 we passed the Police STAT Act, 

 6           the Police Statistics and Transparency Act, 

 7           which among other things is going to require 

 8           law enforcement, every law enforcement 

 9           department in New York State to promptly 

10           report any arrest-related deaths to DCJS, 

11           disaggregated by county, and including 

12           demographic information about the race, 

13           ethnicity, age and gender of the individuals 

14           who die in arrest-related deaths.

15                  Prior to the passage of this, DCJS, 

16           according to your website, identified the 

17           majority of the arrest-related deaths in 

18           New York through reviews of news articles.  

19                  The law enforcement reporting 

20           requirements took effect in December.  Have 

21           you seen compliance with the law so far?

22                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  We have 

23           seen compliance.  This reporting is kind of 

24           going parallel with the use of force 


                                                                   323

 1           reporting that has kicked in as a result of 

 2           the new legislation.  And we are getting data 

 3           and reports from law enforcement agencies 

 4           with regard to both of those.

 5                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you.

 6                  And under the law, DCJS is going to be 

 7           required to annually report that data to the 

 8           Legislature and to make the data available to 

 9           the public on your website, updated monthly.  

10           Is DCJS prepared from a technology standpoint 

11           to make that data available on your website?  

12           And if so, when can we expect it to be 

13           available?

14                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Yes.  

15           We're actually working right now on trying 

16           to -- I guess for lack of a better term -- 

17           clean the data.  We're working with 

18           departments to make sure it's reliable, make 

19           sure, for example, incidents weren't 

20           double-reported.  

21                  But we do anticipate that by March 

22           that data will be up on the website.

23                  SENATOR HOYLMAN:  Thank you so much.  

24           That's good news.


                                                                   324

 1                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Thank 

 2           you.  It's good to see you.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Great.  Thank 

 4           you.  We -- yes, Helene.  

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes, we go to 

 6           Assemblyman Tannousis.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Hi, 

 8           Commissioner.  Thank you so much for joining 

 9           us.  

10                  The one question I wanted to ask you 

11           is can you -- will you be able to tell us how 

12           many individuals in New York State are 

13           incarcerated because of marijuana-related 

14           offenses?

15                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I cannot 

16           give you that figure off the top of my head.  

17           You know, there's both inmates in the State 

18           Department of Corrections, there's 

19           incarceration in local jail facilities.  So, 

20           you know, I couldn't give you a figure.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Would you be 

22           able to look into that for us as regards to 

23           the state, obviously, state detentional 

24           facilities?  


                                                                   325

 1                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  As to 

 2           the state facilities -- and I don't want to 

 3           put him on the spot, but I would suggest that 

 4           Commissioner Annucci from DOCCS might be in a 

 5           better position to give you information on 

 6           who's in DOCCS right now.  But we can 

 7           certainly work with Commissioner Annucci to 

 8           get any information that would answer that 

 9           question to you.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Thank you.  

11           Thank you very much obviously.  I appreciate 

12           that, because obviously we're -- this is an 

13           issue -- recreational marijuana is an issue 

14           that's coming up, and obviously we want to 

15           have those facts and figures so we can make 

16           that determination adequately.

17                  So thank you very much for your time.

18                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Thank 

19           you.  

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So next we have 

21           Assemblyman Palmesano.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Yes, thank 

23           you, Commissioner.  I have a few questions 

24           for you.


                                                                   326

 1                  First, we've had a lot of talk about 

 2           bail reform and the concerns that many of us 

 3           have raised on that issue.  Do you keep 

 4           statistics -- in regards to that, do you keep 

 5           statistics on the number of individuals who 

 6           commit crimes who have been released without 

 7           having to post bail or have some type of 

 8           pretrial supervision assigned to them?

 9                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So the 

10           data that we are keeping in connection with 

11           OCA is what was required in the statute.  The 

12           statute set out requirements for what OCA and 

13           DCJS need to collect.  And as Judge Marks 

14           testified to earlier, by statute OCA's first 

15           report on that data is due in July of this 

16           year.  DCJS's first report is due in January 

17           of next year, and we've been working hand in 

18           hand with OCA and fully anticipate that both 

19           entities will meet those deadlines.  In fact, 

20           I think -- you know, what I anticipate you'll 

21           find is that we'll be posting the same data 

22           on both the OCA and DCJS websites that 

23           satisfy all of the requirements in that 

24           statute.


                                                                   327

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  All right.  

 2                  I think one of the other issues, along 

 3           with that, is will that also hopefully 

 4           include individuals who are released on 

 5           pretrial supervision on their own 

 6           recognizance, that status as far as people 

 7           who didn't show up for their trial hearings?  

 8           Will that possibly be part of those numbers?

 9                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Yeah, I 

10           would have to go back and look at the statute 

11           and see exactly what the reporting 

12           requirements are. 

13                  But I can assure you that everything 

14           that the Legislature put in that statute in 

15           terms of reporting requirements, we will have 

16           and will have posted publicly.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  All right, 

18           thank you.  I have a couple of other 

19           questions.

20                  Relative to the New York State Police 

21           Reinvention and Collaboration, we obviously 

22           understand that departments who fail to 

23           comply with this order risk losing state 

24           funding, as well as there's a proposed 


                                                                   328

 1           directive which requires monitors to be 

 2           installed to oversee the operations of these 

 3           departments at their own expense.

 4                  Do we know, to date, how many 

 5           departments fall under this order and how 

 6           many departments have not complied with this 

 7           order as of yet?

 8                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I 

 9           believe it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 

10           550 departments that fall under the order.  

11           That's a rough number, but close.

12                  We've been in communication and I've 

13           yet to have any department tell me "We're not 

14           going to make it."  You know, we're working 

15           with departments.  As I indicated, just this 

16           morning I got a question, you know.  So our 

17           goal is to help all departments, and we hope 

18           there's no department that doesn't have a 

19           plan in with their municipality by April 1st.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Thank you.

21                  And as far as withholding of the 

22           funding, could this also apply to federal 

23           grants that flow through the state?

24                  And I guess the other -- well, on top 


                                                                   329

 1           of that, with the violent crime that we're 

 2           seeing that's happening right now in our 

 3           communities, is it a really good idea for us 

 4           to be withholding any funding or threatening 

 5           to withhold any funding that could help 

 6           protect our local communities?

 7                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So in 

 8           terms of the details of what funding, I would 

 9           have to defer to the Division of Budget, 

10           since they're the entity that's named in the 

11           order, you know, in terms of the funding end 

12           of this.

13                  As I said, our goal is to make sure 

14           that we work with departments and that no 

15           department falls into that category.

16                  You know, in terms of our major urban 

17           centers where we're seeing the increase in 

18           shootings, you know, my understanding from 

19           our communications with them is that all of 

20           those municipalities are working hard on this 

21           and are on track to be done, you know, by the 

22           April 1st date.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Okay.  Thank 

24           you.


                                                                   330

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay, Assembly 

 2           continuing. 

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

 4           Kelles.  Thank you.

 5                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  It's amazing 

 6           the technology is still -- I can't seem to 

 7           put the video on.  I'm being asked, but --

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  There you go.

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Lovely.  

10           Wonderful.  

11                  Thank you so much for this 

12           presentation and the long explanation of all 

13           of these.  

14                  I'm new, so I apologize if this 

15           question is very basic, but I was going 

16           through and looking at the local assistance 

17           reductions and eliminations, and I'm pretty 

18           sure that the Prisoner Legal Services and the 

19           New York State Defender programs are in that.  

20           I know you worked closely with those.  

21                  I'm just wondering how those programs 

22           are going, if we have any data of the impact 

23           of those programs.  Any information would be 

24           great to hear.  


                                                                   331

 1                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I don't 

 2           have data offhand on how those programs are 

 3           working.  They are both programs that have 

 4           received funding through DCJS.

 5                  I'm sorry, you said the Defenders 

 6           Association and Prisoner Legal Services?  

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Yup.

 8                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So the 

 9           Defenders Association, in the Governor's 

10           proposed budget there's a $1,030,000 

11           allocation.  The Prisoner Legal Services, 

12           there's a $2.2 million allocation.  

13                  It's my understanding that both of 

14           those sums are the same as in the Governor's 

15           budget from last year, that they haven't been 

16           increased or increased in terms of the 

17           Governor's budget proposal.

18                  And again, while I don't have data, 

19           you know, we have -- we've been working with 

20           both of those entities for the nine years 

21           that I've been at DCJS now.  You know, and a 

22           very good working relationship with them in 

23           terms of the funding end of things.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  That's 


                                                                   332

 1           wonderful.  Can you describe maybe some of 

 2           the other programs -- this was an elimination 

 3           of $16 million in the General Fund that 

 4           provided grants to localities and nonprofits, 

 5           so I was curious what other programs might be 

 6           in that category.

 7                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Again, 

 8           as to the Governor's proposed budget, my 

 9           understanding is that there are no items that 

10           the Governor proposed last year that were 

11           enacted as part of his proposal that were 

12           cut.

13                  You know, all of our funding -- for 

14           example, the aid to probation, we give about 

15           $25 million in funding to alternative to 

16           incarceration programs, about $44 million in 

17           funding to probation departments, about 

18           $14 million in funding to gun violence 

19           elimination efforts.  As we indicated, a 

20           total of about $7 million to SNUG.

21                  All of those local assistance that 

22           were part of the Governor's proposed budget 

23           or the Executive Budget last year, it's my 

24           understanding that those are all fully funded 


                                                                   333

 1           in the Governor's proposal this year.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  And two really 

 3           quick questions.  

 4                  I heard a conversation about SNUG 

 5           earlier.  I'd love to hear about plans of 

 6           expanding extensively upstate.  

 7                  And the other is, has there been any 

 8           state support or discussion about promoting 

 9           Law Enforcement Assisted Diversion programs, 

10           or LEAD programs?  

11                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So with 

12           regard to SNUG, we currently support SNUG 

13           programs in Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, 

14           Albany, Troy, Poughkeepsie, Yonkers, 

15           Mount Vernon, one in Hempstead, one in 

16           Suffolk, and one in Newburgh.  So we are very 

17           heavily involved in upstate New York with 

18           SNUG programs.

19                  In terms of LEAD, we did work with 

20           Albany in their attempts at running a LEAD 

21           program.  We did pay for a research component 

22           to that program for several years so we could 

23           get feedback from a data perspective.  

24                  You know, it's not something -- at 


                                                                   334

 1           least in the way it's operated here in 

 2           New York so far, I haven't seen data showing 

 3           that it's had the type of impact that I think 

 4           you or I would have wanted it to have.  You 

 5           know, so we have not invested heavily in LEAD 

 6           to this point.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Thank you.

 8                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  We -- 

 9           that being said, you know, I certainly agree 

10           with the idea of trying to find ways to keep 

11           people who don't belong in the criminal 

12           justice system out of the system and connect 

13           them to support systems, you know, that could 

14           be far more helpful.

15                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Thank you so 

16           much.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

18                  Assembly continuing?

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes.  

20                  We go to Assemblymember Rajkumar.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR:  Thank you, 

22           Chair Weinstein, Judiciary Chairman Lavine.  

23                  And thank you, Deputy Commissioner 

24           Green, for your testimony this afternoon.  


                                                                   335

 1                  I want to use my three minutes to 

 2           engage you on issues of underrepresented 

 3           immigrant communities and their interaction 

 4           with the justice system, specifically around 

 5           hate crimes.

 6                  My first question is on hate crimes 

 7           against a particular subset, South Asian- 

 8           American immigrants.  South Asian immigrants 

 9           here in my district in South Queens -- and 

10           around the state and the country -- have been 

11           targeted for hate crimes.  These include hate 

12           crimes against Sikh Americans, who wear the 

13           traditional turban, and Bengali Americans.

14                  Do you anticipate any items in the 

15           budget that will combat hate crimes against 

16           this specific underrepresented immigrant 

17           group?  

18                  I see the Governor's 2021 budget 

19           includes $2 million in support of the 

20           Hate Crimes Task Force, first established in 

21           2018.  And in fact before I was an 

22           Assemblywoman, I worked as director of 

23           immigration affairs for the state and I 

24           remember when that task force was created.  


                                                                   336

 1                  Do you foresee or is it possible to 

 2           explore possibilities for that task force to 

 3           engage South Asian communities?  And you 

 4           mentioned the Governor's Executive Order 203 

 5           requiring the local police to engage 

 6           community leaders in a process to reform the 

 7           police and how they serve their communities.  

 8                  So what are your thoughts on how to 

 9           engage immigrant communities in that process, 

10           and where might the opportunities lie for 

11           collaboration?

12                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So 

13           first, thank you for the question.  

14                  I think there is data to support your 

15           concern.  While generally speaking in 2020 we 

16           did not see an increase -- in fact, overall 

17           we saw, you know, slight decreases in hate 

18           crimes.  In New York City -- you know, and 

19           the data is preliminary at this point, but we 

20           did see a rise in hate crimes specifically 

21           targeted against Asian populations.  

22           Upstate -- and again, very preliminary 

23           data -- we saw a rise in hate crimes targeted 

24           against Blacks.  So I think there is a basis, 


                                                                   337

 1           clearly, for your concern.

 2                  In terms of the Governor's budget, the 

 3           Governor's budget continues to provide the 

 4           funding to DCJS that we need to work with the 

 5           Municipal Police Training Council and our 

 6           local partners on training around these 

 7           issues.

 8                  As part of the revamp of the basic 

 9           course that I talked about, we worked with 

10           the Anti-Defamation League, we worked with 

11           others to really beef up the hate crimes 

12           training section so that every new recruit 

13           will have an up-to-date and thorough hate 

14           crimes training component.  

15                  And that component that's in there can 

16           also be used by individual departments as an 

17           in-service training on hate crime, if they 

18           want it.  

19                  So we continue to be engaged with our 

20           partners in terms of training around hate 

21           crime and trying to support entities.

22                  And then the last piece of your 

23           question, certainly it's envisioned when -- 

24           under the Governor's executive order when 


                                                                   338

 1           departments and municipalities are asked to 

 2           engage with communities, that immigrant 

 3           communities would be included in that 

 4           engagement.

 5                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN RAJKUMAR:  Thank you.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 7                  Next to Senator Jeremy Cooney.

 8                  SENATOR COONEY:   Thank you, 

 9           Madam Chair.  

10                  And hello, Commissioner, it's good to 

11           see you.

12                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Good to 

13           see you again.

14                  SENATOR COONEY:   Long time no see.  

15                  As someone who's from Rochester and of 

16           course served as our district attorney, 

17           you're well familiar with some of the 

18           challenges and issues we face in Rochester 

19           with policing, specifically in Black and 

20           brown communities, many of which I represent 

21           in the 56th Senate District.

22                  My question to you is going to be 

23           framed in the lens of our new Senate 

24           Committee on Cities 2, which is focused on 


                                                                   339

 1           upstate New York cities, specifically the 

 2           Big 5.  And when it comes to diversity in law 

 3           enforcement, both in policing and in the 

 4           district attorney's office, it's something I 

 5           know that is not unique to Rochester, 

 6           certainly, in struggling with -- but I do 

 7           wonder if you have some experience, based on 

 8           your time not only in Rochester but in the 

 9           State of New York, talking with other states 

10           across the country, on how they have been 

11           successful with diversifying our law 

12           enforcement divisions.  

13                  Because I believe truly that if we 

14           want to have a more just system that works 

15           equally for everyone, I believe that law 

16           enforcement should reflect the communities in 

17           which they serve.

18                  And I would appreciate your thoughts 

19           and any examples or specific opportunities 

20           that we could do some more research on.

21                  Thank you.

22                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I 

23           certainly agree -- you know, thank you for 

24           the question.  You know, we definitely want 


                                                                   340

 1           police departments -- as we do all of our 

 2           other institutions -- to reflect the 

 3           communities that they serve.  And frankly I 

 4           think they would be better -- you know, any 

 5           institution is better at doing their job and 

 6           better able to serve the community if they 

 7           are.

 8                  We are working, continue to work with 

 9           groups like the IACP and others to make sure 

10           that we are up on, you know, what others 

11           around the country are doing.

12                  As you know, this is a very 

13           challenging topic and not one that there's an 

14           easy solution to.  You know, you mentioned 

15           the Rochester Police Department.  You know 

16           they have been under a court order out of 

17           federal court for years around this issue, 

18           and yet it still remains a very difficult 

19           issue.

20                  You know, the Governor's proposal, 

21           among other things, does look to standardize 

22           hiring practices and require the Municipal 

23           Police Training Council to do work and put 

24           guidelines around standardized training 


                                                                   341

 1           practices.  And if that's passed, we 

 2           certainly envision that one part of that work 

 3           would be to make sure that whose hiring 

 4           practices take into account the desire to 

 5           have diverse police departments and are 

 6           reflective of that goal.  

 7                  You know, so I think in the terms of 

 8           the Governor's budget proposal and current 

 9           work, those would be the highlights I'd point 

10           out.

11                  SENATOR COONEY:  Commissioner, I 

12           appreciate that.  And I do have a bill that 

13           I've entered into the Senate which would 

14           specifically work with the Big 5 cities and 

15           address a long-time question about police 

16           residency and, you know, begin to have those 

17           conversations.  

18                  Because I do believe that making sure 

19           that dollars are staying in the communities 

20           and that people feel invested in those who 

21           they are protecting really does matter.  

22                  So we'll take a look at what you have 

23           in the budget, and I appreciate your time 

24           today, Commissioner.


                                                                   342

 1                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Thank 

 2           you.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 5                  So we go to Assemblyman Braunstein, 

 6           and after that will be Assemblywoman Byrnes.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Are you there, 

 8           Ed?  Put your mute off.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN:  Okay, thank 

10           you.  Sorry about that.

11                  Forgive me if someone asked you this 

12           question earlier, Commissioner; we've been 

13           going back and forth with different things 

14           today.

15                  My question is about Executive Order 

16           203, the Police Reform and Reinvention 

17           Collaborative plan with the localities.  I 

18           guess I have two questions.  My first 

19           question is, it requires localities to submit 

20           and -- to put together a plan and then 

21           certify it and then submit it to your agency.

22                  Once the plan is submitted, is there 

23           any kind of evaluation after that to see that 

24           it's acceptable?  Or has the locality met its 


                                                                   343

 1           obligation just simply by submitting a 

 2           certified plan?

 3                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I'll 

 4           have to go back and look at the executive 

 5           order again.  But my recollection is it 

 6           required the submission to the Division of 

 7           Budget.  

 8                  You know, certainly that said, you 

 9           know, we intend to review all the plans.  

10           But, you know, at least as of now my 

11           understanding is if the plan has properly 

12           been ratified by the local municipality or 

13           governing body, you know, that that satisfies 

14           the requirements.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN:  Because it 

16           doesn't really speak to it in the executive 

17           order.  And my question is if a locality -- 

18           let's say the City of New York submits a 

19           plan, you know, it's certified, it's put 

20           together.  Is there an opportunity later for 

21           the Division of Budget to withhold funding 

22           based on, you know, some kind of subjective 

23           evaluation of the plan that they don't agree 

24           with?


                                                                   344

 1                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  And 

 2           that's something you'd have to direct to the 

 3           Division of Budget.  I can't speak to that, 

 4           I'm sorry.  

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN:  And do we 

 6           know what kind of funding could be withheld 

 7           from a locality if they don't meet the 

 8           requirements?

 9                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Again, 

10           that's something the Division of Budget would 

11           have to speak on.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN:  Okay.  Have 

13           you had conversations with the City of 

14           New York about their plan and how they're 

15           moving?  

16                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I 

17           personally have not had conversation with the 

18           City of New York.  But I know -- you know, 

19           it's a collective process between DCJS, the 

20           deputy secretary's office, the Budget 

21           Division and others.  You know, and 

22           collectively we've spoken with every 

23           jurisdiction.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN BRAUNSTEIN:  Okay.  All 


                                                                   345

 1           right.  Thank you.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  (Muted.)

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  Thank you.  

 4           Assemblywoman Marge Byrnes.  

 5                  Mike Green, how are you, sir?  

 6                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Fine, 

 7           how are you?  Long time no see.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  I was going to 

 9           say the same thing.  

10                  I have one question for you.  It may 

11           spring to a couple others, but we only have 

12           2 minutes and 45 seconds, so -- but look, we 

13           all hope and expect that our police 

14           departments are going to be submitting plans 

15           that meet all of the new procedures by the 

16           deadline that's been established.

17                  My question is if a police department 

18           submits and operates under a plan that they 

19           think in good faith satisfies the objectives 

20           of the state and what they believe satisfies 

21           the requirements, but yet later on down the 

22           line the state for any reason believes that 

23           their plan is inadequate, are they still 

24           going to be penalized?  As long as they're 


                                                                   346

 1           operating in good faith and doing their best.

 2                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  

 3           Ultimately it's the Budget Director who's 

 4           going to make those determinations, and I 

 5           can't speak for the Budget Director.  

 6                  But what I can say is the intent here 

 7           was to simply try and make sure that police 

 8           departments, municipalities and communities 

 9           engage with each other in an effort to move 

10           relationships between police departments and 

11           communities forward.

12                  And certainly I would hope to the 

13           extent that municipalities and police 

14           departments have done that in good faith, you 

15           know, I wouldn't expect that there would be 

16           any consequences for that.

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  I trust there's 

18           some expectation that because our communities 

19           can be so different -- from a village I live 

20           in that only has 2200 people and basically 

21           two full-time officers, to a larger 

22           municipality -- that they deal with such 

23           different types of complaints and people that 

24           live within the communities that I would hope 


                                                                   347

 1           those types of factors are taken into 

 2           consideration as plans are evaluated.

 3                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  And I 

 4           believe that that's the reason why the 

 5           executive order was crafted as it is, to have 

 6           the approval process being done by the local 

 7           governing body.  

 8                  So that in the village you talked 

 9           about, there's a village board made up of 

10           folks who are representative of your village, 

11           and they can pass on whether or not that plan 

12           is appropriate for the village -- which may 

13           be very different than the City of Rochester, 

14           who has a city council who can pass on 

15           Rochester's plan.

16                  So, you know, my understanding is that 

17           the executive order was crafted that way, to 

18           take into account the exact things that you 

19           raised there.

20                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  All right.  And 

21           then, again, my only fear -- which I hope 

22           doesn't become borne out -- is that somebody 

23           will play armchair quarterback and decide 

24           that plans that are approved ultimately 


                                                                   348

 1           aren't satisfactory.  And I'd hate to see for 

 2           any reverberations on the back end when they 

 3           are operating in good faith.

 4                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  No, 

 5           thank you.  I understand and appreciate the 

 6           concern.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  Thank you, sir.  

 8           Take care.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

10                  Back to the Senate to close -- yes?

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We have no 

12           more.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  You have no more.  

14           That's what I thought, thank you.

15                  Okay, to close for the Senate the 

16           chair of our Codes Committee, second round, 

17           five minutes, Jamaal Bailey.

18                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Thank you.  Thank 

19           you, Madam Chair.  

20                  And Commissioner Green, again, this 

21           won't be long at all.  This is just related 

22           to the Article VII proposal about the 

23           creation of the crime of -- the new domestic 

24           violence crime created in this new 


                                                                   349

 1           Article VII.        

 2                  I just wanted to know DCJS's opinion 

 3           on this, and will it help to -- I guess I -- 

 4           I guess I'll -- let me take a couple of steps 

 5           back, right?  

 6                  During this pandemic we've obviously 

 7           seen an increase in stats related to domestic 

 8           violence.  I just wanted to know will this 

 9           Article VII, in your opinion, in the opinion 

10           of DCJS, help to stem the tide of some of 

11           these domestic violence-related offenses.

12                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So if 

13           the proposal you're talking about is the one 

14           to create new crime, a misdemeanor crime of 

15           domestic violence --

16                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Correct.

17                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  The 

18           intent is that certain convictions for crimes 

19           of domestic violence are supposed to result 

20           in a disqualifier for someone purchasing a 

21           gun.  

22                  Currently, though, in order for that 

23           process to take effect, in addition to 

24           someone being charged with a crime, the 


                                                                   350

 1           district attorney has to file a certificate 

 2           alleging that it's a crime of domestic 

 3           violence.  In addition to adjudicating the 

 4           criminal case, the court has to hold a 

 5           separate hearing to determine whether or not 

 6           it's a crime of domestic violence.  And then 

 7           if in fact a finding is made, not only does 

 8           the conviction have to be transmitted to 

 9           DCJS, but the results of that separate 

10           hearing have to come to DCJS.  

11                  And if for any reason any of those 

12           things don't happen -- the DA doesn't file 

13           the certificate, the court doesn't do the 

14           hearing, the result doesn't get transmitted 

15           to DCJS -- someone with a qualifying domestic 

16           violence conviction can still go out and 

17           purchase a gun.  

18                  This is an attempt to close that 

19           loophole.  It will not criminalize any new 

20           conduct.  So anything that's criminalized 

21           under this proposal would already be a 

22           criminal offense.  It will simply eliminate 

23           the need for filing that separate 

24           certificate, having a separate hearing, and 


                                                                   351

 1           having two pieces of information conveyed to 

 2           DCJS instead of one.

 3                  When this new crime is charged, the 

 4           element will be the existing underlying crime 

 5           plus the domestic relationship.  It can all 

 6           be heard and adjudicated within the course of 

 7           that single case, and if there's a 

 8           conviction, that gets sent to DCJS and 

 9           there's an automatic disqualifier.

10                  So, you know, our understanding right 

11           now is that there are more qualifying 

12           convictions than orders that we're receiving.  

13           So there's basically a disconnect there.  And 

14           this would close that disconnect and keep 

15           convicted domestic abusers who shouldn't have 

16           guns from being able to buy guns.

17                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  And thank you 

18           for that answer.

19                  And just my final question, to close.  

20           To your knowledge, have you had -- have there 

21           been conversations with advocacy groups as 

22           related to domestic violence in the 

23           formulation of this proposal?

24                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  I think 


                                                                   352

 1           yes, there have been conversations.  

 2                  I think there have also been 

 3           conversations around some of the broader 

 4           proposals like expanding the scope of the 

 5           Office for the Prevention of Domestic 

 6           Violence to include gender-based violence.  

 7           There have been conversations around 

 8           streamlining the application process for 

 9           resources for not-for-profits, you know, that 

10           go to different state agencies, so there 

11           would be a more common platform for that 

12           application.  

13                  So in general, yes, I think both the 

14           Office for the Prevention of Domestic 

15           Violence and the administration generally 

16           have been very engaged with the domestic 

17           violence advocacy community here around these 

18           proposals.

19                  SENATOR BAILEY:  And my final, final 

20           question -- you know, sometimes -- I'm sorry, 

21           I'm an attorney too.  

22                  (Laughter.)

23                  SENATOR BAILEY:  So as related to 

24           sealing -- you spoke about the sealing of 


                                                                   353

 1           convictions.  There are some bills being 

 2           proposed -- we'd like to greatly expand our 

 3           sealing statutes and actually give us actual 

 4           expungement in New York State.  Does DCJS 

 5           have an opinion on either the legislation or 

 6           the concept of expansion of sealing?

 7                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  So for 

 8           the sealing that we've done, as I indicated, 

 9           we sealed about 3.2 million records that was 

10           marijuana -- low-level marijuana convictions, 

11           low-level historical offenses like disorderly 

12           conduct, and things open for more than five 

13           years.  That left 800,000 people with clean 

14           records.  

15                  You know, those types of things we 

16           support.  Currently we're working on the 

17           legislation that was just passed and signed 

18           into law which will seal convictions for 

19           loitering for purposes of prostitution.  So 

20           we're engaged right now in making sure we 

21           carry that out.  

22                  And so those types of sealing or 

23           expungement that you referred to we certainly 

24           support, you know, and are working very hard 


                                                                   354

 1           to make sure we carry out everything that's 

 2           enacted.

 3                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Excellent, thank you.  

 4           You know, New Yorkers deserve to have a clean 

 5           slate to be able to move forward.  

 6                  And I thank you for your time and for 

 7           your attention to these questions.  Thank 

 8           you, Commissioner.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

10           much.

11                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  You too.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I think at this 

13           point we are done with you for today.  Thank 

14           you for spending your couple of hours with us 

15           helping us to understand your agency and 

16           budget.

17                  EX. DEP. COMMISSIONER GREEN:  Well, 

18           thank you.  It's always a pleasure to see 

19           everyone, and appreciate all of your support.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

21                  And our next commissioner -- excuse 

22           me, acting commissioner -- Anthony Annucci, 

23           New York State Department of Corrections and 

24           Community Supervision.  


                                                                   355

 1                  And just before he starts, the chairs 

 2           for this commissioner are Senator Julia 

 3           Salazar and Assemblymember Weprin.  And the 

 4           rankers are Senator Akshar and I believe 

 5           Assemblymember -- the ranker is a 

 6           replacement, am I correct?

 7                  THE MODERATOR:  Yes.  That will be 

 8           Assemblyman Palmesano.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Correct, for 

10           five minutes.  Thank you.  

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  Okay, 

12           when we get there, good.

13                  And then I believe people saw the note 

14           that Assemblymember Weinstein needs to run 

15           out for something else, and so I'll be 

16           shifting back and forth between the Assembly 

17           and the Senate.  

18                  So please raise your hand if you have 

19           a question.  And when I get your name wrong, 

20           Assemblymembers, I apologize.  You can blame 

21           me later.

22                  So with that, Acting Commissioner 

23           Annucci, who I think has been here in Albany 

24           as long as I have but is still an acting 


                                                                   356

 1           commissioner, right?

 2                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  That is 

 3           correct.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Welcome.

 5                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Thank 

 6           you.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Ten minutes on 

 8           the clock.

 9                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Thank 

10           you, Senator.  

11                  Good afternoon, Chairwoman Krueger, 

12           Chairwoman Weinstein, and other distinguished 

13           chairs and members of the Legislature.  I am 

14           Anthony J. Annucci, acting commissioner for 

15           the Department of Corrections and Community 

16           Supervision.  It is my honor to discuss some 

17           of the highlights of Governor Cuomo's 

18           Executive Budget plan.

19                  Since the Governor took office, the 

20           incarcerated population, now under 33,200, 

21           has decreased by more than 22,000, marking 

22           the lowest total since 1984, and representing 

23           a 54 percent decline since its all-time high 

24           in 1999 of 72,773.  More significantly, the 


                                                                   357

 1           total population reduction since January 1, 

 2           2020, exceeds 11,000.  Even with these 

 3           drastic reductions in incarceration, New York 

 4           proudly remains one of the safest large 

 5           states in the country.  

 6                  With this significant reduction in 

 7           population since 2011, the state has safely 

 8           eliminated excess capacity through the 

 9           closing of 18 correctional facilities without 

10           laying off workers, while achieving 

11           $292 million of savings for taxpayers.  This 

12           year's closure process is underway with the 

13           transfer of staff to vacant positions at 

14           other facilities or offices, while the 

15           incarcerated population is transitioned into 

16           vacant beds elsewhere.  

17                  Based on the continued decline of the 

18           incarcerated population, we anticipate 

19           additional facility closures in the upcoming 

20           two fiscal years.  

21                  Over the past year, COVID-19 has 

22           plagued our nation and state.  The department 

23           was not spared from the effects of COVID-19.  

24           Accordingly, last March I convened a 


                                                                   358

 1           multidisciplinary COVID-19 Task Force to 

 2           guide our comprehensive response.  

 3                  During this pandemic there have been 

 4           many heroes along the way.  Our essential 

 5           workers, including corrections and community 

 6           supervision staff, came to work every day and 

 7           consistently carried out their professional 

 8           duties in an exemplary manner, oftentimes 

 9           going above and beyond their traditional 

10           responsibilities.  I am very proud of the 

11           dedication and sacrifice staff have displayed 

12           throughout the duration of the COVID-19 

13           public health emergency and thank them for 

14           their continued great work.  

15                  Incarcerated individuals also helped 

16           to support and protect fellow New Yorkers 

17           with the production of nearly 11 million 

18           bottles of hand sanitizer of various sizes, 

19           over 89,000 protective gowns, and almost 

20           2 million face masks.  

21                  As the Governor has pointed out, our 

22           path forward is to continue testing and 

23           vaccinations.  We have begun the process of 

24           vaccinating our staff and the incarcerated 


                                                                   359

 1           individuals in the system who are 65 and 

 2           older, consistent with statewide guidance for 

 3           that age group.  

 4                  Under the direction of Governor Cuomo, 

 5           the department has also leveraged existing 

 6           laws that allowed for the early release of 

 7           3,555 nonviolent, non-sex offenders, which 

 8           included 791 low-level parole violators from 

 9           local custody.  The department decommissioned 

10           over 3,000 top bunks, greatly reducing 

11           density within dorm settings, and followed 

12           CDC and DOH guidance to help reduce the 

13           spread of COVID-19.  We also modified 

14           policies and procedures in community 

15           supervision that have drastically reduced the 

16           issuance of technical warrants.  

17                  Despite the pandemic, there were many 

18           accomplishments in 2020.  Last year, the 

19           Governor successfully advanced legislation to 

20           remove all individuals under the age of 18 

21           from DOCCS, and to send adolescent offenders 

22           to the Office of Children and Family 

23           Services.  This transition was successfully 

24           completed.  


                                                                   360

 1                  In 2019, the Governor, along with the 

 2           leaders of both houses, jointly agreed to 

 3           further overhaul segregated confinement 

 4           through administrative action.  DOCCS issued 

 5           and adopted regulations after a thorough 

 6           review of the public comments.  Leveraging 

 7           the $69 million capital funding allocation, 

 8           the necessary infrastructure upgrades to 

 9           develop residential rehabilitation units are 

10           underway, with several becoming operational 

11           later this fiscal year.  

12                  The regulations further restrict the 

13           number of infractions that can result in a 

14           disciplinary confinement sanction, among 

15           other things.  When fully implemented, these 

16           reforms will restrict the use of segregation 

17           for vulnerable populations and cap the amount 

18           of time someone can spend in segregation.  

19                  Through the ongoing reforms, I am 

20           confident we will successfully provide 

21           incarcerated individuals with the services 

22           and treatment they need, while continuing to 

23           keep staff, the population and visitors safe.  

24                  Lastly, the Board of Parole, in 


                                                                   361

 1           consultation with the department, adopted 

 2           regulations that improved the standard 

 3           conditions of supervision, and modified the 

 4           parole revocation process, advancing both 

 5           alternatives to incarceration options and 

 6           shorter periods for reincarceration when 

 7           necessary.  

 8                  In conclusion, while we will continue 

 9           to tackle the many challenges posed by 

10           COVID-19, we will simultaneously explore 

11           additional means to further leverage 

12           technology for the delivery of programs and 

13           the advancement of safety, both inside our 

14           facilities and within our communities.  We 

15           cannot ignore the overall safety of our staff 

16           and the security of our facilities and 

17           offices.  They remain a top priority for the 

18           department.   Our professional, well-trained 

19           and dedicated workforce, who perform their 

20           responsibilities in a highly commendable 

21           manner, often under dangerous and difficult 

22           circumstances, will continue to be our best 

23           resource as we meet our mission.  

24                  The Governor's budget positions the 


                                                                   362

 1           department for success, while continuing to 

 2           address the dramatic decline in the 

 3           population, to the benefit of the entire 

 4           agency, as well as the taxpayer.  

 5                  Thank you, and I will be happy to 

 6           answer any questions.

 7                  (Pause.)

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Our first 

 9           questioner will be Senator Julia Salazar, the 

10           new chair of Crime, Crime Victims and 

11           Corrections.

12                  SENATOR SALAZAR:  Thank you, Chair.

13                  And thank you very much, Commissioner, 

14           for joining us today and taking the time to 

15           testify.

16                  I wanted to begin by asking you about 

17           racial disparities in parole denials and in 

18           solitary confinement.  There was a New York 

19           Times investigation in 2016 that documented 

20           pretty astounding racial bias in New York's 

21           prisons, particularly bias in the use of 

22           solitary confinement and in parole denials 

23           that had prompted the Governor at the time to 

24           announce an investigation.  


                                                                   363

 1                  Recently in December, the Times Union 

 2           issued a report showing that these same 

 3           racial disparities in parole denials and 

 4           solitary confinement had actually increased 

 5           since the 2016 report.  Now we're in 2021, 

 6           it's been more than four years since the 

 7           Governor initially announced that there would 

 8           be an investigation.  

 9                  Would you be able to inform us why 

10           findings haven't been issued from such an 

11           investigation and any other action that's 

12           been taken since then specifically to address 

13           the Parole Board's racially disparate release 

14           rates?  

15                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Senator, 

16           first of all, thank you for that question.  

17                  Let me begin by saying I have been 

18           around since 1984, 36 years plus.  And in my 

19           entire tenure with the state, as with this 

20           agency, this is the most diverse Parole Board 

21           that we have.  And I know the chairwoman very 

22           well.  She's a person of integrity and 

23           character.  I know at least 11 members are 

24           considered to be minority.  I know she is 


                                                                   364

 1           very active in initiatives with me.  She is 

 2           the cochair of my Commissioner's Diversity 

 3           Management Advisory Council, which is 

 4           dedicated to increasing diversity throughout 

 5           the ranks of our agency.  I know that she is 

 6           very engaged, and I know that if you're going 

 7           to do any type of study, you have to be able 

 8           to compare apples to apples and oranges to 

 9           oranges.  

10                  In order for you to ascertain whether 

11           or not there's any potential racial 

12           difference in decision-making, you have to 

13           have the full array of information before 

14           you.  For example, you have to know whether 

15           or not someone has been incarcerated five or 

16           six times versus someone who's incarcerated 

17           for the first time on a burglary in the third 

18           degree conviction.  That is not ascertainable 

19           from the information that may be available on 

20           a website.

21                  One of the smartest laws we never 

22           passed in this state is "three strikes and 

23           you're in," so people can get repeatedly 

24           convicted as second felony offenders.  


                                                                   365

 1                  You also need to have access to a 

 2           whole host of information that the Parole 

 3           Board looks at which is not available on any 

 4           public website.  For example, what did the 

 5           district attorney say, what did the defense 

 6           attorney say, what did the sentencing judge 

 7           say in response to solicitation records.  

 8           What is the record while incarcerated?  What 

 9           is the disciplinary record?  What did the 

10           crime victim submit?  

11                  So all of these factors are taken into 

12           consideration and considered.  And therefore, 

13           you would really have to have a very, very 

14           carefully constructed research project that 

15           had access to a lot of different records in 

16           order to ascertain whether there is any 

17           potential racial impact.

18                  And I will point out that one reason 

19           why our population is going down is that the 

20           Parole Board has significantly increased the 

21           rate at which people are released.  This is 

22           well before COVID.  In calendar years 2019 

23           and 2018 combined, right -- which was 

24           pre-COVID -- our population declined by 


                                                                   366

 1           basically 6,000.  So we've had that going on.  

 2                  Then with respect to what we're doing 

 3           in the disciplinary system, I have initiated 

 4           a number of different training initiatives 

 5           throughout our agency.  Staff are mandated to 

 6           take implicit bias, racial stereotyping and 

 7           many other things.

 8                  I also have commissioned my research 

 9           units to generate two different types of 

10           comprehensive reports, one of which looks at 

11           the assignments at each facility and the 

12           racial breakdown at each facility.  And that 

13           comes in to my deputy commissioner for 

14           program services, and where we need to be 

15           better at assigning particular jobs, the jobs 

16           at each facility have to be balanced 

17           according to the racial population at each 

18           facility.  

19                  I also get a quarterly report from my 

20           research unit on overall statistical 

21           indicators of various types at a 5,000-foot 

22           level.  And where corrective action is 

23           required, we do -- instruct the appropriate 

24           deputy commissioner to follow up.  So we are 


                                                                   367

 1           very much married to the concept of diversity 

 2           and inclusion and fairness for everybody.

 3                  SENATOR SALAZAR:  Thank you, 

 4           Commissioner.  

 5                  I want to preface this by saying that 

 6           I may need to cut you off, and I apologize.  

 7           I mean no offense.  If I cut you off, it is 

 8           only because my time is limited.

 9                  I want to talk a little bit about 

10           solitary confinement.  In November, just a 

11           few months ago, the Partnership for the 

12           Public Good released a report demonstrating 

13           that if the HALT Solitary Confinement Act 

14           were implemented, it would actually yield 

15           New York State a net savings of $132 million 

16           each year.  I mention this because we 

17           previously heard from the current 

18           administration that contrary to this, the 

19           Executive claims there would be a fiscal cost 

20           to implementing these same changes that are 

21           outlined in the -- changes to the use of 

22           solitary confinement and the length of time.

23                  My question is, in your capacity do 

24           you have an assessment of the HALT bill or on 


                                                                   368

 1           its proposed limits to the use of solitary 

 2           confinement and whether it would in fact have 

 3           a fiscal impact or cost or savings to the 

 4           state?

 5                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Senator, 

 6           normally -- I can't comment on pending 

 7           legislation, but there are several things 

 8           that I can point out.  

 9                  First, I have firsthand experience of 

10           what it's like to be confined in a special 

11           housing unit cell in a maximum security 

12           prison.  I did it almost as an undercover 

13           operation back in December.  We selected a 

14           facility; the superintendent was simply told 

15           be prepared for two high-level, high-profile 

16           individuals.  Myself and my executive deputy 

17           commissioner, we went in dressed in inmate 

18           uniforms, and we stayed there for 24 hours.  

19           So I got to see firsthand all the different 

20           actions, interactions that are there with all 

21           the different staff, from being screened by 

22           the nurse, from the counselor that comes by, 

23           having the tablet, listening through 

24           headphones in the exercise pen, the whole 


                                                                   369

 1           nine yards.  And I can go into a lot further 

 2           detail.  

 3                  But the big thing is that we would 

 4           have to spend a lot of money to transfer 

 5           people after 15 days to RRUs, which are being 

 6           constructed as we speak.  That movement can 

 7           be very costly and very disruptive.  It's 

 8           disruptive to an incarcerated individual to 

 9           suddenly have to leave the facility.  If you 

10           are somebody that commits an infraction 

11           that's somewhat serious but not so serious 

12           that the hearing officer wants to impose a 

13           30-day SHU sentence, you would have to be 

14           moved after 16 days.  

15                  But leaving him at that facility, when 

16           he comes out he could resume where he was, 

17           including being back in a college program, if 

18           that is where he was.

19                  So there's a lot of costs that are 

20           involved with any type of proposal that is 

21           there.  And I'd love the opportunity to 

22           really lay out in detail all of the reforms 

23           that we've done, all the existing alternative 

24           units that we spent a lot of money on, and 


                                                                   370

 1           where we will be with the RRUs, including 

 2           tablets where you can speak to your family 

 3           for up to six hours a day from a segregated 

 4           confinement cell.  That is a privilege that 

 5           you don't get in general confinement.

 6                  SENATOR SALAZAR:  Thank you.

 7                  I want to ask more about COVID-19 in 

 8           DOCCS.  Given that jails and prisons are 

 9           congregate settings -- and I appreciate that 

10           you mentioned in your testimony that density 

11           has been reduced, but I think we can probably 

12           agree that DOCCS facilities are congregate 

13           settings -- when can we expect all of the 

14           people, not just based on their age, but all 

15           people who are currently incarcerated to 

16           become eligible for receiving the COVID-19 

17           vaccine?  And when they are granted 

18           eligibility, is there a plan by DOCCS or DOH 

19           for rolling out vaccinations?

20                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Well, 

21           Senator, we have been in partnership with DOH 

22           since the very start of this pandemic, and 

23           they have guided every step that we have 

24           taken, including how we would roll out 


                                                                   371

 1           vaccinations.  And it's a lot of work to do 

 2           that.  We have 27 teams of people that were 

 3           assembled, ready to go to the facilities.  We 

 4           have OSI staff that are ready to transport 

 5           the vaccine.  We had to survey all of the 

 6           staff to see who would be interested.  We had 

 7           to deal with the medical people in 1-a, the 

 8           correctional staff, including community 

 9           supervision staff, in 1-b.  We had to find 

10           where the elderly are, 65 and older.  And 

11           then we had to transport the vaccines.  

12                  And in order for us to get as many 

13           people to accept the vaccine who are 

14           incarcerated, instead of giving them 

15           information for them to just read, I had a 

16           member of my executive team and a health 

17           services person directly interview them and 

18           try and convince them to accept the vaccine.  

19           And so far, close to 80 percent have accepted 

20           the vaccine.  

21                  We will have injected 4,000 vaccines 

22           this week.  We will continue with that.  We 

23           are next tackling the vulnerable population 

24           of a little over 3,000 medical problems that 


                                                                   372

 1           we will get to.  I can't give you a date when 

 2           everybody will be vaccinated.  I can tell you 

 3           that as a matter of public health -- public 

 4           protection and public health go hand in hand, 

 5           so it's in everybody's interest to get there 

 6           as soon as possible.  I think the news that 

 7           Johnson & Johnson has now been approved for 

 8           vaccinations is a big, big step that will 

 9           help all New Yorkers.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, 

11           Commissioner.  And Chair, I have to cut you 

12           off.  Chair, you're entitled to five minutes 

13           for a second round of cleanup at the end.

14                  With that, I'm turning it over to the 

15           chair of Corrections for the Assembly, 

16           Assemblymember Weprin.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Thank you, 

18           Chair Krueger, thank you, Chair Weinstein, 

19           for your leadership and patience during all 

20           these long hearings.

21                  I just want to follow up just on what 

22           Senator Salazar brought up, because I just 

23           want to let you know, Commissioner, that 

24           Commissioner Zucker, the State Health 


                                                                   373

 1           Commissioner, told the Democratic Conference, 

 2           I think it could have been a month ago, that 

 3           the intention was to inoculate with the 

 4           vaccines everybody in the congregate setting, 

 5           because it really applies to -- correctional 

 6           officers, correctional employees, as well as 

 7           incarcerated individuals are all part of that 

 8           congregate setting.  And he did say that the 

 9           intention was to inoculate everyone, not just 

10           those over 65.

11                  So I just wanted to point that out and 

12           I hope you'll get to that.  Because just like 

13           nursing homes, there has been a huge spread 

14           to the whole system, as you know better than 

15           most.

16                  A couple of questions.  A couple of 

17           things you already touched on, so I will try 

18           not to be repetitive.  But I know you're 

19           planning on closing Gowanda, Clinton and 

20           Watertown; you announced that in December.  

21           What steps are being taken, if any, to 

22           minimize the impact on the local economies, 

23           and what's happening to the staff and inmates 

24           currently at these facilities?


                                                                   374

 1                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Well, 

 2           one step at a time.  The first thing is to 

 3           actually close the facilities.  And they'll 

 4           close by March 31st.

 5                  My number-one immediate priority is to 

 6           make sure that every one of the staff members 

 7           at those three facilities have opportunities 

 8           for employment elsewhere within our system.  

 9           So I've dispatched our human resource staff, 

10           director of personnel, to meet personally 

11           with all of the staff that are affected at 

12           the different facilities, as well as the 

13           unions, and to carefully explain to them what 

14           their rights and options are.  

15                  So we're going to be moving a number of 

16           them in about two weeks, and then we'll continue 

17           after that.  We're also gradually moving the 

18           incarcerated population out of there as well.  

19           That is a process that is much less complicated 

20           because we have thousands and thousands of 

21           vacancies throughout our entire system.  

22                  Ultimately, when the facilities are 

23           closed, we will maintain them at least in a 

24           fashion that they can be reused when and if 


                                                                   375

 1           another purpose comes about.  So we work with 

 2           ESD, and if at some point one of them can be sold 

 3           or used for a different purpose, we'll allow 

 4           people to be brought on-site, we'll maintain them 

 5           so that the infrastructure is preserved, and 

 6           perhaps one of them may be sold or there may be 

 7           an alternate purpose.

 8                  So we are always mindful of trying to do 

 9           our best to leave the community with other 

10           options.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  I appreciate 

12           that, Commissioner.  And I appreciate the 

13           working relationship we've had for the last 

14           five years.  

15                  I'd love to hear about your undercover 

16           experience offline; I don't want to 

17           monopolize the time of this particular 

18           hearing.  But I'll discuss that with you at a 

19           later date.

20                  Something that came up in our 

21           Democratic conference as we were going over 

22           the budget the other day was the $5 million 

23           for the Correctional Services Commissary 

24           addition.  Can you give us a little more 


                                                                   376

 1           detail on that?  Because that came up in --

 2                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Yeah, 

 3           basically that's a dry appropriation that's 

 4           funded by the population themselves.  And 

 5           because each facility has its own independent 

 6           commissary account, and because with things 

 7           like loss of visitation more money is coming 

 8           in from family members for them to be able to 

 9           spend on things through the JPay account, 

10           et cetera, we needed to raise the 

11           appropriation so that we wouldn't have 

12           anybody that wouldn't be able to spend.  

13                  So that was something we increased I 

14           think a couple of years ago, and now we're 

15           raising it another 5 million.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Okay.  I have a 

17           number of issues to cover, so I'm going to 

18           try to go through them quickly.

19                  As you know, I've been a huge 

20           supporter -- and I think you have as well -- 

21           for higher education in facilities.  And 

22           obviously we're a little bit more limited 

23           during this COVID-19, but hopefully that will 

24           change.


                                                                   377

 1                  As you probably know, I have a 

 2           proposal for educational release, and I 

 3           think that's something that you might 

 4           support.  Has there been any discussion about 

 5           adding college programs and possibly having 

 6           the educational release?  And with the recent 

 7           bill in Washington which basically, you know, 

 8           provided additional TAP coverage for 

 9           incarcerated individuals, I think that makes 

10           it even easier or, you know, more likely that 

11           we can expand some of these prison programs.  

12                  Can you just elaborate on that and how 

13           the TAP could help that?

14                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Okay.  

15           Very quickly, Assemblyman, yes, thank you.  I 

16           really appreciate your support for higher 

17           education.  I strongly believe in education 

18           for a lot of different reasons, primarily 

19           because it's transformative.  We have totally 

20           different people once they get through 

21           education.

22                  We presently have about 21 different 

23           outside colleges delivering services at 

24           30 different facilities.  And we always would 


                                                                   378

 1           love to expand and include more.  There's 

 2           about 15,000 individuals in our system that 

 3           have high school diplomas already, so they 

 4           could move on to higher education if 

 5           possible.

 6                  I was very pleased to see the 

 7           Pell Grant restored at the federal level.  I 

 8           can tell you that the documentary that was 

 9           made in our facilities, "College in Prison," 

10           the Ken Burns documentary, four hours, that 

11           helped significantly.  It showcased to the 

12           whole country the power of higher education 

13           behind bars in our system, and I think it was 

14           a big factor in why Congress restored 

15           Pell Grant funding.

16                  As for your pending legislation, 

17           Assemblyman, I can't really comment on that.  

18           But obviously anything that furthers the 

19           linkages -- and if that's educational release 

20           that allows people to continue their 

21           education with colleges in the communities 

22           where they live, that's fine.  We support 

23           anything that builds on secondary education 

24           in our institutions.


                                                                   379

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Thank you.  

 2                  And just following up on the 

 3           Parole Board and the diversity of the 

 4           Parole Board, when I first came on as chair 

 5           about five years ago, there were I think only 

 6           somewhere between 10 and 12 parole 

 7           commissioners.  And we've obviously expanded 

 8           that.  We expanded, allowing it to go up to 

 9           19 parole -- I agree with you that the 

10           diversity has expanded, and I know you and I 

11           have been part of that process.

12                  My question for you is, how many 

13           vacancies do we have now?  And I know we can 

14           go up to 19, and we really should try to fill 

15           all of those spots.  How many vacancies are 

16           there now?  And I know the board is much more 

17           diverse.  And I actually had recommended one 

18           of my Corrections staffers, Tana Agostini, 

19           and she was one of those, and I think the 

20           state was the beneficiary, you know, of her 

21           service.  

22                  And if you could just kind of just 

23           elaborate on how many vacancies we have right 

24           now.


                                                                   380

 1                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Sure.  

 2           We have 16 members of the board right now.  

 3                  And one thing I'll just remind you 

 4           about -- one is the population obviously has 

 5           dramatically declined.  When you go down 

 6           11,000 in a little more than a year, that's a 

 7           significant decline.

 8                  The second thing is a significant 

 9           proportion of individuals incarcerated are 

10           serving determinate sentences, which means 

11           they don't get released by action of the 

12           Parole Board, they don't get interviewed 

13           before Parole, they're released at their date 

14           by operation of law.  And so anybody with a 

15           drug offense or serving time for a VFO or a 

16           sex offense is serving a determinate 

17           sentence.  They will not appear before a 

18           Parole Board for potential release.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Okay, thank you.  

20           My time is running out.  I have a bunch of 

21           questions, and I will reserve the right to 

22           come back for the second time as chair.

23                  But you talked about the reduction in 

24           overall prison population, significantly, 


                                                                   381

 1           over the last few years.  I just want to ask 

 2           about double bunking.  Is there still double 

 3           bunking, meaning two to a cell, two residents 

 4           to a cell currently in use?  And if so, why, 

 5           since the prison population has been 

 6           significantly reduced.

 7                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Well, 

 8           first, for those double cells that had been 

 9           in operation when we were very overcrowded 

10           and we had to convert a number of single 

11           cells in 16 of our maximum-security 

12           facilities -- they've all been taken down, 

13           with very few exceptions.  There's a very 

14           limited number in Auburn; I doubt if they're 

15           filled right now.  And there's a very limited 

16           number, I think, in Downstate.  And I think 

17           the others -- that would be it.  So those 

18           have been taken down.

19                  But then you have the double cells 

20           that were constructed as double cells at 

21           places like Five Points and Upstate 

22           Correctional Facility, in our S blocks.  Now, 

23           to the extent that there are instances where 

24           some of them will be two in a cell, yes, that 


                                                                   382

 1           still exists.  But it has been significantly 

 2           decreased with the significant reduction in 

 3           the population.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Thank you.  I'm 

 5           running out of time, so I'll come back.  And 

 6           let me just ask one more question --

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Quickly.  You're 

 8           not going to have any time to get an answer.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Okay.  Well, you 

10           know what, it's been a pleasure working with 

11           you these last five years.  

12                  I'll come back for the five minutes 

13           for some of my other questions.  How's that, 

14           Chair?  

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  That's perfect.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Thank you.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

18                  And our next questioner is 

19           Jamaal Bailey for five minutes, chair of the 

20           Codes Committee.

21                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Thank you, 

22           Madam Chair.  

23                  Acting Commissioner, good to see you.  

24                  Chair Salazar mentioned a lot of the 


                                                                   383

 1           conversation that I wanted to do, and she 

 2           touched on it, and I think she'll touch on 

 3           more of it in her second round, as related to 

 4           the response as related to COVID.

 5                  But I wanted to double down on what 

 6           Assemblymember Weprin was talking about as 

 7           related to education for individuals who are 

 8           currently incarcerated.  You mentioned the 

 9           documentary related to the Bard Prison 

10           Initiative and the restoration of the 

11           Pell Grant at the federal level, which is 

12           great news.

13                  I was wondering, are there steps that 

14           we can take, in your opinion, that we can do 

15           to further put pressure on getting TAP back 

16           for individuals who are incarcerated?

17                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  That's a 

18           difficult question, Senator.

19                  Obviously we're in an enormous 

20           situation with the budget.  I mean, we all 

21           have heard the reports; we know what it's 

22           done.  I think the Budget Director is very 

23           hard-pressed to find additional funds for 

24           anything without cutting something else.  


                                                                   384

 1                  I think for the most part, if you want 

 2           to show support, at least, we'd love to have 

 3           you at our college graduations.  Come and 

 4           help give support to the population.  It's 

 5           really an uplifting event when we have 

 6           graduations and men and women are dressed up 

 7           in caps and gowns and the family members are 

 8           in the audience.  And we've gotten some named 

 9           speakers, people like Whoopi Goldberg and 

10           Bill Whittaker from "60 Minutes" and Cardinal 

11           Dolan.  

12                  So come to a college graduation and 

13           really see what the end result is from 

14           College Behind Bars.  It's very uplifting.

15                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Certainly.  If we're 

16           really talking about actual rehabilitation, 

17           this is a huge step in that direction towards 

18           incarcerated individuals being able to resume 

19           normalcy once they are no longer 

20           incarcerated.

21                  But I guess the next question I would 

22           have is related to individuals who are 

23           working while incarcerated.  Generally, 

24           what's the average hourly rate in number of 


                                                                   385

 1           hours that an incarcerated individual would 

 2           work each week?

 3                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It 

 4           depends, Senator.  It depends upon a 

 5           particular grade.  The highest-graded worker 

 6           can make probably a little more than a dollar 

 7           a day if he's in a high-earning correctional 

 8           industry job.  But it all depends upon the 

 9           particular job.  

10                  And I'm very sensitive to the wages 

11           issue.  I think it's an important 

12           conversation to have.  And it's one of the 

13           things that in order to try and at least help 

14           offset the low wages, we keep the population 

15           harmless as best we can with things like 

16           having very, very low rates for telephone 

17           calls, for secure messages on our tablets.  

18           We make sure the vendor keeps us among the 

19           lowest in the country.  We'll never charge 

20           sales tax for anything.  We did supply the 

21           tablets free of charge to them.  We're never 

22           going to ask for a copay for medical care.

23                  So while we're dealing with this 

24           period when we may be restricted, because of 


                                                                   386

 1           budget constraints, from raising wages, I'm 

 2           very sensitive to it and am trying to at 

 3           least have other things to take their place.

 4                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  And generally 

 5           speaking, how much does DOCCS spend paying 

 6           people that work in prisons, generally 

 7           overall?

 8                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  By an 

 9           hourly wage?  

10                  SENATOR BAILEY:  No, in total.  Like 

11           what is DOCCS's outlay like for paying 

12           individuals who are incarcerated that work in 

13           prisons?  

14                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  (Aside.) 

15           Do we know?  

16                  Yeah, we'll get back to you, Senator.  

17           I just don't have that off the top of my 

18           head.

19                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Sure.  No problem.  

20           As my time is running low, I want to talk 

21           about medication-assisted treatment.  I'm the 

22           sponsor of a bill to expand that.  And as you 

23           know, I think it's critical, especially with 

24           us being in an opioid crisis, still within 


                                                                   387

 1           the throes of an opioid crisis.  How many 

 2           facilities again in the state provide MAT 

 3           currently?

 4                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Oh, it's 

 5           about seven or eight at this point.  We were 

 6           really building our capacity until obviously 

 7           COVID really put a damper on everything.  We 

 8           have methadone and buprenorphine at a number 

 9           of facilities -- off the top of my head, it's 

10           Bedford, it's Downstate, I think Elmira, 

11           Marcy.  

12                  We have Vivitrol at a number of 

13           facilities.  And we also have naloxone, which 

14           obviously is important for overcoming 

15           overdoses.  And it's part of transitional 

16           services, and any individual being released 

17           who will willingly accept the kit, we'll give 

18           it to them and hopefully they can potentially 

19           save a life in the community.

20                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Sure.  So I guess my 

21           final question is related to segregated 

22           confinement.  And I know Senator Salazar 

23           spoke incredibly well on that earlier, and I 

24           would echo those sentiments that we should do 


                                                                   388

 1           anything we can to reduce that.

 2                  But as it is right now, what are the 

 3           total number of infractions that are issued 

 4           for people violating rules each year?  And 

 5           then what's the result of being placed in the 

 6           SHU after those violation results?

 7                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Okay.  

 8           So basically like the Penal Law, our 

 9           disciplinary system has three tiers -- 

10           Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3.  And I can give you 

11           the total number of -- {Zoom glitch} -- for 

12           each one.  You can't go to SHU for a Tier 2, 

13           and a Tier 1 is almost like a violation -- 

14           you get punished, but you don't get any kind 

15           of record that could come back and haunt you.  

16                  Tier 3 is the one where you can get a 

17           recommended loss of good time, keeplock 

18           confinement or segregated confinement.  

19                  But we have significantly modified the 

20           offenses that could result in a Tier 3 

21           outcome.  So we've moved a number down to 

22           Tier 2.  And in fact, a snapshot on 

23           January 1st of this year, compared to a year 

24           ago, there's something like 400-and-some-odd 


                                                                   389

 1           less people in SHU.  So we are clearly moving 

 2           away from that direction.  

 3                  There's a number of things that we had 

 4           agreed to with the NYCLU settlement 

 5           agreement, including the requirement that we 

 6           tier at the lowest level, that the review 

 7           lieutenant reviews that and makes sure it's 

 8           the least tier for the particular act of 

 9           misbehavior that's involved.  Many other 

10           things that we do that have really 

11           ameliorated who goes to SHU or -- and how 

12           long they stay there.  And keeplock as well.

13                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Well, I see that my 

14           time is up, and thank you, Chair, for the 

15           opportunity.  

16                  And thank you, Acting Commissioner.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Sorry.  I was on 

18           mute.  If you would, Commissioner, get me and 

19           Helene the information you were just 

20           describing, the charts showing the Tiers 1, 

21           2, 3, what the categories are that actually 

22           fall into a 3, and the numbers of people now 

23           going to the SHUs under these new rules.  I 

24           think everyone will be very interested in 


                                                                   390

 1           seeing the data.  Okay?  

 2                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Sure.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 4                  And next we have Assemblymember 

 5           Palmesano, who is serving as the ranker for 

 6           today and gets five minutes.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Thank you, 

 8           Commissioner, for being here.  

 9                  I want to kind of get at talking about 

10           the prison closures a little bit.  That's 

11           something of great concern to myself and a 

12           number of my colleagues.  

13                  Certainly I've seen -- you know, the 

14           Governor has taken a lot of credit, proud of 

15           the number of prisons he's closed in his 

16           tenure.  I believe with the three recently 

17           announced, that would be 20 facilities.  But 

18           what he seems to fail to do is to take 

19           responsibility for the dangerous powder-keg 

20           environment these closures and some of his 

21           other policies have created in these 

22           correctional facilities, like restricting the 

23           use of special housing units -- and I call 

24           them special housing units, not solitary 


                                                                   391

 1           confinement.

 2                  Even by DOCCS' own website, 

 3           inmate-on-staff assaults are up over 

 4           38 percent over the past five years.  

 5           Inmate-on-inmate assaults are over a thousand 

 6           per year over the past five years -- I think 

 7           it's a 31 percent increase since 2015.  So 

 8           we're really jamming more and more inmates 

 9           into fewer facilities, especially in this age 

10           of COVID.

11                  The other area I want to just talk 

12           about really is this whole fast-tracking of 

13           these prison closures, 90 days.  I really 

14           believe, as a number of my colleagues do, 

15           this is really a lack of respect to these 

16           families and communities who have been 

17           totally disrupted by these closures, and it's 

18           really adding insult to injury.  No time for 

19           planning or preparation.  And so this is like 

20           seven prisons that will be closed within a 

21           90-day period over these past two budgets.  

22           It's difficult enough.  It's not enough time 

23           for a family to plan for moving, to relocate 

24           for schools and homes.  It's just not 


                                                                   392

 1           appropriate.  And especially in this era of 

 2           COVID.  

 3                  We really should be rejecting any 

 4           measure to close a facility within 90 days.  

 5           The statute calls for one year.  

 6                  But I do want to talk about the prison 

 7           closure.  I know in this budget he's talked 

 8           about a two-year period.  That creates more 

 9           uncertainty.  So have you identified how many 

10           prisons you might be looking at as far as for 

11           closure -- mediums, maximums, you know, 

12           number of beds?  You know, how many prisons 

13           are you talking about, do you have any idea 

14           right now?

15                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  We're 

16           basically looking at closing the equivalent 

17           of prisons that would amount to 1800 beds.  

18           In that neighborhood, Assemblyman.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Would that 

20           involve mediums, maximums, both?  

21                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  We 

22           haven't made a final decision yet.  There are 

23           a lot of different factors that we look at.  

24                  Let me just back up one second, if I 


                                                                   393

 1           may.  It's the toughest decision to do, to 

 2           close --

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  I understand.

 4                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  I do not 

 5           underestimate the impact on the staff or the 

 6           surrounding communities.  But --

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  I know you 

 8           understand that, but I just -- it's still a 

 9           concern.  Because I guess even in this age of 

10           COVID, what practical matter does it mean to 

11           jam more and more inmates into fewer 

12           facilities and lesser space?  

13                  I do want to talk about the issue of 

14           violence.  I mean, how high is the violence 

15           in our facilities?  We already talked about 

16           38 percent.  And the contraband numbers, you 

17           know, the drug numbers, drugs getting into 

18           our facilities, over 4,000 incidents in each 

19           of the past five years, before the 

20           administration in DOCCS is going to implement 

21           meaningful reforms instead of taking away 

22           resources like the ability to use special 

23           housing units.  

24                  I mean, where is the Secure Vendor 


                                                                   394

 1           Program?  Several years ago that was a 

 2           program you had in place -- that started out 

 3           and you canceled it abruptly -- to help 

 4           screen these drugs getting into our 

 5           facilities.  I have not been made aware of 

 6           any new facility or program that you're 

 7           utilizing to deal with the screening of these 

 8           programs.  Where does that stand?  What about 

 9           the use of K-9 units at every facility?  

10           Where does that stand?  

11                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Well, 

12           you asked a lot of things.  Let me try and 

13           answer them one by one.

14                  First, 75 percent of the assaults 

15           happen in maximum-security facilities.  We 

16           haven't touched maximum-security facilities.  

17           The facilities that are closing are medium.  

18                  Second, we have thousands and 

19           thousands of vacant beds throughout.  You 

20           can't possibly say that we're jamming people 

21           when we're closing facilities.

22                  Third, the Secure Vendor Package 

23           Program is something that's very important 

24           that I want to get back to.  I had to stop it 


                                                                   395

 1           when we got hit with COVID.  We learned from 

 2           the first misstep, and I'll take full 

 3           responsibility for that.  We've met with the 

 4           advocates, we've met with the unions, they've 

 5           given us positive feedback.  We've gotten 

 6           feedback from the superintendents.  

 7                  I do want to get back to that.  The 

 8           presence of drugs is a significant concern.  

 9           It's a health risk both for the population 

10           and for staff.  I think ultimately getting to 

11           that will put us on the right track and help 

12           reduce drugs.

13                  But in the meanwhile, our staff are 

14           fantastic, in our package rooms, in 

15           discovering contraband that's secreted within 

16           cans of vegetables and fruits and things of 

17           that nature.

18                  So I can't agree that closure somehow 

19           is linked to violence at all.  There's no 

20           connection whatsoever to that.  Because we 

21           are at a level that we haven't seen since 

22           1984.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  One last quick 

24           question.  Who is supervising -- 


                                                                   396

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  No, sorry, you 

 2           can't throw up a question and an answer in 

 3           two seconds.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Thank you.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  It was a good 

 6           stab, though.  I like that.

 7                  (Laughter.)

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Thank you.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Sorry, my job is 

10           to be mean here today.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Fine.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Senator Borrello 

13           next.

14                  SENATOR BORRELLO:  Yes, thank you, 

15           Madam Chair.  

16                  Thank you, Commissioner.

17                  I represent the 57th Senate District, 

18           and Gowanda is in my district.  I have -- 

19           just wanted to bring up a couple of concerns.  

20                  First of all, thank you for being 

21           here.  

22                  But there have been four requests put 

23           in by the Gowanda Area Redevelopment 

24           Corporation, and they've gotten a bit of the 


                                                                   397

 1           runaround.  And I understand sometimes the 

 2           request is made to the wrong agency, but 

 3           DOCCS did receive a request -- you know, 

 4           you're claiming $89 million in savings for 

 5           closing these three facilities, so the 

 6           request was made to see those savings and 

 7           exactly where those savings are.  And somehow 

 8           they were notified that in order to produce 

 9           that, it's going to take now until April 2nd.  

10           This is a request that went in in January.  

11                  So my question to you is if you made 

12           the determination to close these facilities 

13           based on savings, then how could that data 

14           be -- take three months to procure and 

15           deliver to this FOIL request when that should 

16           have been what you used to make the 

17           determination?  Shouldn't you just be able to 

18           pretty much instantly turn that over?  Why 

19           would it take so long to show what savings 

20           would be made?  

21                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Senator, 

22           I'll have to look into exactly what the 

23           response to that FOIL request -- you said it 

24           was a FOIL request submitted by --


                                                                   398

 1                  (Overtalk.)

 2                  SENATOR BORRELLO:  I'm sorry, it's the 

 3           Gowanda Area Redevelopment Corporation.  And 

 4           it's been in to you since January 25th -- I'm 

 5           sorry, the first response was from 

 6           January 25th, and they're saying April 2nd.

 7                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Okay.  

 8           Okay.  I will look into that.

 9                  But basically the closure is all 

10           personnel that ultimately are relocating to 

11           other vacant positions throughout the system.  

12           So that, for example, the closures going 

13           forward are projected to reduce our overall 

14           budget fill level by 800 positions.

15                  And so when you factor into that all 

16           the costs -- the fuel costs of maintaining a 

17           correctional facility, the sewage treatment, 

18           all those other costs -- they're complicated, 

19           but you come up with a number that basically 

20           says this is how we get to 89.  

21                  I don't know why they've said until 

22           April, but I'll follow up on that.

23                  SENATOR BORRELLO:  Yeah, because it 

24           was literally, you know, two days after the 


                                                                   399

 1           prison is going to close, which is my 

 2           concern.  

 3                  But let me also add that there's other 

 4           factors there too.  You may not be aware, and 

 5           I don't expect you to be aware of this, but 

 6           the Collins' facility heat system is supplied 

 7           from the Gowanda facility.  I don't know if 

 8           you're aware of that or not.  So when you 

 9           start talking about savings based on labor, 

10           that's one thing.  But you're going to have 

11           to maintain that facility in some manner.  

12           And also there was a brand-new infirmary, I'm 

13           told, at Gowanda, that there's going to be 

14           upgrades needed to Collins.  

15                  So, you know, I'm a businessperson 

16           and, you know, you can't just look at one 

17           side of the equation.  The other side is 

18           what's it going to take to maintain that 

19           facility or quote, unquote, mothball it and 

20           still have it there so that it can be used to 

21           supply heat to the Collins facility.  

22                  So I'm just curious what that final 

23           number really looks like.

24                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  We'll 


                                                                   400

 1           get back to you on that, Senator.  We are 

 2           relocating an infirmary at the Collins, but I 

 3           think it may be backwards about where the 

 4           heat is coming from as well.  So I'll get a 

 5           final answer for you on that.

 6                  SENATOR BORRELLO:  Thank you.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 8                  Next up, Assemblymember Mark Walczyk, 

 9           three minutes.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Thank you, 

11           Chairwoman.  Appreciate it.  

12                  Acting Commissioner, you said you were 

13           very proud of the corrections officers that 

14           work for you and how they've acted during the 

15           pandemic.  I appreciate that sentiment.  I 

16           certainly am.

17                  How did you come to announce prison 

18           closures for those COs and for their families 

19           four days before Christmas?

20                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  If 

21           you're asking why that particular timing, 

22           Assemblyman, it was not an easy decision to 

23           make.  We were balancing a number of things.  

24           Had COVID never happened, we probably would 


                                                                   401

 1           have announced June 1st, July 1st the latest.  

 2           COVID happened; that complicated everything.  

 3                  And we're balancing, obviously, the 

 4           decrease in the population, which is 

 5           happening at a very rapid pace, something -- 

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  I'm sorry, I 

 7           only get three minutes, so I hate to cut you 

 8           off there.  But Chairmen Weprin brought this 

 9           up in his question.  He was talking about 

10           Watertown Correctional and the correctional 

11           facilities that you're shutting down here, 

12           which the Governor has the prerogative to do 

13           through you.  

14                  You said in planning here, the first 

15           thing you have to do is close the facility.  

16           I would disagree.  I think your job, whether 

17           acting commissioner or commissioner, would be 

18           to create a reasonable plan for prison 

19           closure and communicate that plan.  Your next 

20           would be to take care of the employees that 

21           are under your department.  And then the 

22           following would be to take care of the 

23           inmates and make sure that everybody is 

24           safely done there.  


                                                                   402

 1                  Leaders plan.  So the next phase is 

 2           not close the facility and then figure out 

 3           what happens next.  

 4                  But I wanted to talk to you about 

 5           safety and staffing of facilities, since you 

 6           brought that up as well.  You said safety of 

 7           staff and facilities is of paramount 

 8           importance.  Is urinalysis a key component of 

 9           that?  

10                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Yes, we 

11           look at everything.  We look at how things 

12           are working at the facility, we look at the 

13           infrastructure, we look at the capital, we 

14           look at the proximity to other facilities 

15           where we can move staff.  Most of all, we 

16           look at the actual infrastructure of the 

17           facility itself and what the costs are --

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  You may recall, 

19           Commissioner, back in September, on 

20           September 1st, a number of us legislators 

21           penned a letter to you asking that you 

22           reinstate the urinalysis program because of 

23           the danger that drugs in our facilities pose 

24           to both COs and inmates.  


                                                                   403

 1                  You took two months to respond, and in 

 2           your response on October 28th of last year 

 3           you said you were working as expeditiously as 

 4           possible -- those were your words in that 

 5           letter.  Your staff then in last December 

 6           said that the urinalysis program would start 

 7           in January, which would be last month.  

 8                  Do you have a urinalysis program that 

 9           is running in all of your facilities now?  

10                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  We have 

11           an urinalysis program that's an interim 

12           measure with a vendor that can -- if there's 

13           reasonable suspicion to believe that someone 

14           has taken drugs, we will have that test done 

15           for this interim period.

16                  We have selected two new vendors, one 

17           an outside lab, one a supplier of the tests.  

18           We have sent out distribution of the kits to 

19           every facility.  We are ready to implement.  

20           It will probably be done -- I'm almost sure 

21           it will be done before the end of this month.

22                  So understand that when you're dealing 

23           with things like COVID and vaccinations and 

24           relocating staff, to stick to a schedule is 


                                                                   404

 1           not the easiest thing.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN WALCZYK:  Obviously I 

 3           would love more time, Commissioner, but mine 

 4           has expired.  You'll be hearing from me soon.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 6           much.

 7                  The next questioner is Latrice Walker.  

 8                  Are you still with us, Latrice?  

 9           Perhaps not.  

10                  Oh, there she is.  Hello.

11                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  All right.  So 

12           thank you.  Thank you so much for your 

13           testimony this afternoon.

14                  I have of course -- I want to 

15           associate my comments with my colleagues who 

16           spoke to you about solitary confinement.  

17           Particularly I was told, when I first got 

18           elected, that 25,000 people were going to be 

19           returning home to my district between 2015 

20           and 2020.  And so I'm pretty much about at 

21           Year 5 now, and the level of support that is 

22           needed for so many individuals who have gone 

23           through such volatile incarceration 

24           conditions is -- it definitely feeds the 


                                                                   405

 1           supportive housing community within my 

 2           neighborhood, and a lot of folks are really 

 3           left without a lot of supportive services.  

 4                  And so I really think that the 

 5           detrimental effect that this type of housing 

 6           unit has had on our communities has been 

 7           troublesome.  So I would like for you to take 

 8           a look at that.  

 9                  Of course I also associate myself with 

10           comments with respect to elder parole and 

11           releasing people who have paid their debt to 

12           society and are behind bars.

13                  But I had an opportunity to visit the 

14           Queensboro facility recently, and I think 

15           that that type of facility is really 

16           necessary for most people who are 

17           transitioning out of the upstate criminal 

18           justice system.  But I've noticed that a lot 

19           of facilities were closing down, including 

20           Arthur Kill and a few other facilities in 

21           New York City.  But I know -- I think 

22           Edgecombe is still there.  

23                  What do you think about maybe allowing 

24           some reentry services to be utilized for -- 


                                                                   406

 1           in order to help people to facilitate their 

 2           reentry back into our communities?  

 3                  I also want to just say that this -- 

 4           the pay situation with respect to the 

 5           tablets, I think I'd like to discuss that 

 6           with you.  Because during COVID, as you know, 

 7           that was some of the only solace that many 

 8           people who are incarcerated sort of had as 

 9           they went through that whole process.  And 

10           having it be based on, you know, people 

11           sending them money or a pay schedule seems to 

12           have been problematic.  So I want to talk to 

13           you about that.

14                  But -- and as well as, of course, that 

15           by vaccination, as we've seen happen in the 

16           federal court system.  

17                  But I did want to hear -- and also 

18           about your thoughts on voting rights of 

19           people who are presently on parole and what 

20           the process and procedure is with respect to 

21           providing voter registration cards, 

22           et cetera, and registering those people to 

23           vote as they're walking out of your doors.  

24           In a nutshell.


                                                                   407

 1                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  You have 

 2           a lot there --

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  Well, we can 

 4           follow up later on in the 20 seconds that you 

 5           have left.

 6                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  

 7           (Laughing.)  Okay, a lot there.  

 8                  First of all, the whole reason or a 

 9           big reason why the Governor merged our former 

10           agency and the Division of Parole is he 

11           wanted a seamless transition, he wanted 

12           people to have a smooth hand-off when going 

13           from an institution to the community.  And he 

14           felt putting us all under one agency has 

15           really helped further that, because we -- all 

16           staff, we can prepare better, we have 

17           transitional services, we can identify 

18           housing, we give people Social Security 

19           cards, birth certificates, they get free 

20           access to their rap sheet to prepare for job 

21           interviews, et cetera.  

22                  The fundamental purpose of the 

23           Penal Law changed to include reintegration as 

24           a fundamental purpose.  The Governor created 


                                                                   408

 1           the Reentry Council to focus on those issues 

 2           and to remove obstacles.  We have staff that 

 3           are called reentry managers that are devoted 

 4           to hooking up free services.  We have reentry 

 5           councils at a number of different counties, 

 6           and I'm sure in your county as well, where we 

 7           work with the local officials to hook up 

 8           individuals with services.  

 9                  The Governor has issued pardons to 

10           thousands and thousands -- I can get you the 

11           total number of individuals -- to make them 

12           immediately eligible to vote.  So before they 

13           even walk out the door, I give to them 

14           information -- well, at least those that are 

15           maxing out -- on the importance of voting and 

16           how to register to vote.  If they get the 

17           pardon when they report to the parole office, 

18           they're given that information, they're 

19           explained how to register to vote.  

20                  You already passed a statute back in 

21           2009, I think it's 75 of the Correction Law 

22           that says if someone is maxing out, that's 

23           when they're immediately eligible to vote.  

24           So we give them that information on 


                                                                   409

 1           registering, the importance of voting.  And 

 2           then if they're on parole and they're about 

 3           to get discharged, we give it to them.  But 

 4           before that even happens, with the Governor 

 5           giving pardons to so many, they're eligible 

 6           to vote, they're informed of that, and they 

 7           have written materials to explain that to 

 8           them.

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  Thank you.  

10           I'll follow back up with you on some of my 

11           other questions, but I did want to highlight 

12           reentry housing is so very important.  And I 

13           could totally use your help on facilitating 

14           that.

15                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Sure.

16                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

17                  We've been joined by Senator Pete 

18           Harckham, and it's his time to ask questions.

19                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Thank you very 

20           much, Madam Chair.  

21                  Commissioner, thank you for your 

22           testimony.  

23                  I want to align my comments with those 

24           of Senator Bailey.  I chair the Committee on 


                                                                   410

 1           Alcoholism and Substance Abuse and cochair 

 2           the Senate Task Force on Opioids.  And we 

 3           know from families, from treatment advocates, 

 4           from recovery advocates that there are scores 

 5           and scores and scores of our inmates who are 

 6           not getting the treatment they need.  

 7                  I know you've made some strides, but 

 8           inmates coming out of incarceration without 

 9           medication-assisted treatment are among the 

10           highest risk for overdose death because they 

11           still have the cravings, and when they come 

12           out and they use, their body no longer has 

13           the tolerance, and we end up losing a lot of 

14           them.  It's also one of the number-one 

15           reasons for recidivism.  

16                  So, you know, I implore you to work 

17           with us.  I know you've done some things.  

18           But whether it's Senator Bailey's bill or we 

19           do it, you know, in-house through the 

20           process, we really need to do more because we 

21           know there are scores and scores of people 

22           who are incarcerated who are not getting the 

23           treatment that they so desperately need.

24                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  I 


                                                                   411

 1           totally agree with you in terms of the 

 2           importance of MAT.  We've expanded that.  We 

 3           have a wonderful partnership with OASAS.  We 

 4           have an application in to try and become the 

 5           first corrections-based certified OTP.  That 

 6           is something that I think could really expand 

 7           treatment.  

 8                  Right now we have an initiative where 

 9           somebody who's already on MAT, namely 

10           methadone and buprenorphine, and their 

11           sentence is two years or less, they can come 

12           into our system and be maintained on that and 

13           then continue it in the community.  

14                  But COVID obviously put a huge damper 

15           on everything.  So I look forward to, when 

16           COVID's in the rear-view mirror and we can 

17           build upon the good work that we've already 

18           done and expand upon it, including MAT.

19                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  All right.  I look 

20           forward to offline working closely with you 

21           on this, because I think it's an important 

22           step that we need to take.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

24           much, Senator.


                                                                   412

 1                  Next from the Assembly, Linda 

 2           Rosenthal.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL:  Hi.  Hi, 

 4           Commissioner.  Good to see you.

 5                  Last year we went over the MAT in 

 6           prisons, when I was chair of the Committee on 

 7           Alcoholism and Drug Abuse -- now I'm 

 8           Social Services chair -- and I asked you 

 9           questions about the availability of MAT in 

10           prisons and jails.  And the bill that 

11           Senator Harckham referenced of 

12           Senator Bailey, I have the Assembly version.

13                  Last time I think you said there were 

14           maybe six prisons statewide that had a MAT 

15           program.  How many do you have right now?

16                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It's 

17           more than that.  And at one time it also 

18           included PDPs for the Vivitrol.  

19                  And I can't -- I can't think of them 

20           all.  I don't want to give you 

21           misinformation, Assemblywoman, so let me 

22           count.  But it's at least eight, from my 

23           recollection.  

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL:  But how many 


                                                                   413

 1           prisons are there?  

 2                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Right 

 3           now there are 52, but two are closing, plus 

 4           the Clinton Annex.

 5                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL:  Okay.  So 

 6           that's really quite a -- you know, not a 

 7           great ratio when we have the tools to make 

 8           sure that people can recover from addiction 

 9           when they're ready to.  

10                  And I see that the Governor cut the 

11           funding for jail-based MAT by a tremendous 

12           amount, by 50 percent, saying that, you know, 

13           people have been let out of jails and prisons 

14           so there's not such a need.  

15                  What's your view on that?

16                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Well, 

17           the reality is that the population is 

18           significantly reduced at the jail level and 

19           at the state level.  

20                  When you look at our population and 

21           you measure basically a one-year decline in 

22           five figures, that's astounding.  It took 

23           from 1981 to 1999 to increase by 50,000.  In 

24           three years, we've decreased by 17,000.  


                                                                   414

 1                  So that has ramifications for a lot of 

 2           different things, including what your 

 3           ultimate needs will be for all kinds of 

 4           things, like mentally ill inmates and --

 5                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL:  I 

 6           understand.  I understand.  But we've really 

 7           not made much progress since last year, and 

 8           that's shameful, because people will die -- 

 9           people who leave will die because of the 

10           overdose effect when you're -- you understand 

11           all that.  

12                  And I think that the state really 

13           needs to prioritize that because we have 

14           solutions, we have treatments, we have a 

15           toolkit, and we're just not using it.

16                  I'd like to ask you about women's 

17           health in prisons.  Women who are 

18           incarcerated have complained about a lack of 

19           access to healthcare services, prenatal care, 

20           trauma-informed care, and many other aspects.  

21                  Are the staff in your facilities 

22           provided any particular training on the 

23           health needs for women, particularly those 

24           who are pregnant?  


                                                                   415

 1                  And before you answer, I'd like to say 

 2           I echo my colleagues' views on the vaccines, 

 3           elder parole and all of that.  Thank you.

 4                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  So 

 5           obviously for the women we have many 

 6           different programs, many relationships with 

 7           outside volunteers that come in, and 

 8           specially trained healthcare staff to meet 

 9           all of their needs.

10                  I was very adamant that I don't want 

11           in any way, shape, manner or form, for any of 

12           our female population to feel neglected.  So 

13           if you go to Bedford Hills or you go to 

14           Taconic, you can see the nursery, you can see 

15           the children's center, you can see the RMU, 

16           the regional medical unit that we have to 

17           care for prenatal and post-birth and many 

18           other things that we do for them.

19                  I'd like you to just come and see for 

20           yourself what we do.  But it is very, very 

21           important --

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you -- 

23                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL:  I 

24           certainly -- certainly would.  One last -- 


                                                                   416

 1           one last -- 

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  No, no, no, 

 3           you're way past zero.  Sorry.

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL:  I see zero.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Look at the 

 6           clock.  Look at the clock.  Sorry.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL:  I see zero.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Nope, I know 

 9           you're past zero.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROSENTHAL:  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Assemblymember 

12           Byrnes.

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  Thank you very 

14           much, Chair.  

15                  And I also want to thank the acting 

16           commissioner for being here and being so 

17           gracious with answering a lot of questions, 

18           and there's more to come.

19                  I want to go in a little different 

20           route.  I want to talk a little bit about the 

21           pause on -- and the moratorium on having 

22           state-ready prisoners sent from our local 

23           county jails to state facilities.  

24                  The reason I want to talk about this, 


                                                                   417

 1           Commissioner, is because it has a big impact 

 2           on our counties, both financially -- in 

 3           Steuben County, it's about 2500 a day.  And 

 4           so we have a significant cost factor and 

 5           also, at least in one case, we have an 

 6           inmate that's ready, that is parole-eligible 

 7           but he can't be reviewed until he gets to 

 8           state prison.  They can't review him while 

 9           he's sitting in the jail, and he could 

10           potentially be home now.

11                  Right now, just in Steuben County, 

12           there's 147 total inmates.  Twenty-five -- 

13           17 percent -- are state-ready.  In 

14           Broome County, 414 total inmates, 76 are 

15           state-ready.  That's 20 percent of their 

16           total capacity.

17                  So my question, sir, is when you look 

18           at the impact of the cost of the moratorium 

19           on the counties, compounded by the fact that 

20           we could actually have inmates that could be 

21           released if they could just get transferred 

22           to prison to be processed out -- and also, 

23           sir, you've been talking at length about all 

24           the vacancies in the state prison system, 


                                                                   418

 1           which don't exist in our county jails -- when 

 2           we take all of these factors into 

 3           consideration, sir, with the deepest respect, 

 4           would you agree with me that this moratorium 

 5           should be immediately lifted and at the very 

 6           least the moratorium should be immediately 

 7           lifted on a regional basis in areas like ours 

 8           that do not have COVID concerns with 

 9           transfers to state prison?

10                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  

11           Assemblywoman, I take your concerns very 

12           seriously.  We did not take this step lightly 

13           to stop intake.  We're reviewing it every day 

14           with a view toward trying to reinstate it as 

15           soon as possible.

16                  The challenge with accepting 

17           state-readies means that we have to start 

18           movement throughout the entire system.  You 

19           can't just accept people into reception 

20           centers and leave them there.  You have to -- 

21           it's like an assembly line; you go from 

22           reception centers to general confinement 

23           facilities, and that starts the movement 

24           among all 52 facilities.  


                                                                   419

 1                  So for the period that we had these 

 2           spikes, which happen predictably, right after 

 3           Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's and 

 4           those holidays, we needed to stabilize the 

 5           system.  We are seeing good results now.  The 

 6           numbers are coming down.  So we're going to 

 7           meet very shortly to discuss this.  But I'm 

 8           sensitive --

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BYRNES:  Will the 

10           moratorium not be extended?  Can you promise 

11           it will not be extended anymore?  

12                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  I can 

13           promise that we're going to give it very, 

14           very careful consideration, Assemblywoman.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

16                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It's a 

17           difficult issue.

18                  The one thing I can tell you is 

19           everybody gets reimbursed, either actual cost 

20           or $100, for every state-ready that's not 

21           accepted within ten days of declaration of 

22           state-ready.  There's additional funding 

23           that's in our budget to try and make the 

24           counties whole for that.


                                                                   420

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you both.

 2                  Next, Assemblymember Burdick.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you to the 

 4           chairs and also to Deputy -- to Acting 

 5           Commissioner Annucci.  

 6                  And I want to thank you for your good 

 7           work and the partnership that you have with 

 8           the Town of Bedford in my district and work 

 9           that you're doing on the early release 

10           program and so forth.

11                  I do want to align myself with my 

12           colleagues who would like to see an expansion 

13           of early release and to get on a path to 

14           terminating solitary confinement.  

15                  That takes me to a question that 

16           Chair Weprin had raised about the impact on 

17           local economies of closures.  And actually in 

18           Bedford there's, as you know, a shared 

19           service between the Town of Bedford and the 

20           department in which the department is a 

21           customer of the water and sewer district.  

22           And the closure of either of those facilities 

23           would have a devastating impact.

24                  The question is whether there's any 


                                                                   421

 1           plan for closure and whether there might be 

 2           some carve-out of the 90 days with respect to 

 3           that which -- that could be the only one in 

 4           the state that has that kind of arrangement.  

 5                  And another question I have, really 

 6           unrelated, is that I'd like to get 

 7           direction -- and we could do this offline -- 

 8           on who I could work with in terms of plans 

 9           for solar and electric vehicle charging 

10           installations.  

11                  So if you could address those, that 

12           would be terrific.

13                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  So, 

14           Assemblyman, it's good to see you.  We 

15           welcome you to your new position.  We have a 

16           long working relationship with Bedford and 

17           the local officials, and you were one of 

18           them, and we value that relationship very 

19           much.  

20                  It's a slippery slope for you to ask 

21           me whether or not any of our 52 facilities -- 

22           soon to be 50 facilities -- can be off the 

23           table for closure.  Because if I answer your 

24           question, then somebody else is going to ask 


                                                                   422

 1           a similar question about their facility, and 

 2           it's just something I can't do.  

 3                  But I can tell you that we only have 

 4           one maximum-security facility for women in 

 5           the state, and that's where most of the 

 6           programs are.  So if there are ever a set of 

 7           circumstances where we would even consider 

 8           that, there would be a lot that we would have 

 9           to factor into.

10                  The other issue is there's a lot of 

11           issues, a lot of initiatives that we're doing 

12           for the environment and clean energy.  We 

13           have a whole arrangement with NYPA to put in 

14           electrical panels on our vacant property.  

15           And the idea that you suggest may be 

16           worthwhile; it depends upon the logistics.  

17           But one of our engineers in our facilities 

18           planning would be the person that you could 

19           have a liaison with to even discuss the 

20           logistics of whether that could be doable or 

21           not at various facilities.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Is that 

23           Keith Rupert that I'd be working with?  

24                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  He's one 


                                                                   423

 1           of them.  But he works under a deputy 

 2           commissioner, so it would be both.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you so 

 4           much.  And again, thank you for the very 

 5           positive collaboration and partnership.

 6                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Sure.  

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 8           much.

 9                  Our next questioner is Assemblymember 

10           Harvey Epstein.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you, 

12           Commissioner.  Appreciate your time.

13                  I know a lot of -- some of my comments 

14           my colleagues already mentioned to you, about 

15           solitary confinement and how the HALT bill 

16           will save money.  I hope you will consider, 

17           you know, that savings, because that's a 

18           really critical thing.  It helps people to 

19           get out of prison and will save us money.  

20                  The vaccinations for inmates, we do -- 

21           we were given a commitment that it would 

22           happen at the same time as other folks in the 

23           prison system, and I hope that still goes 

24           forward.


                                                                   424

 1                  I was at Green Haven just earlier this 

 2           week, and I'll say that there were -- you 

 3           know, there were floods in the -- by where 

 4           the cells were, leaks, there were safety 

 5           issues.  You mentioned school programs, Bard 

 6           has a program there.  But with 1600 inmates, 

 7           only 30 are enrolled in the Bard program.

 8                  You know, I -- dozens and dozens of 

 9           inmates wanted to join the school program, 

10           but they have no access to it.  There's a 

11           technical school program, you know, that's 

12           about 200 students.  But the college program, 

13           which is advancement, where people can get a 

14           college degree and the recidivism rates are 

15           so low, we didn't see that.

16                  So I'm wondering, you know, just in 

17           Green Haven alone, you know, that -- the 

18           facilities need some work.  We would want 

19           more money to our prison system on capital, 

20           to redo our solitary units and move forward.  

21           I saw you were redoing a solitary cell there, 

22           but not in a new way to avoid solitary 

23           confinement.  

24                  Can we get your committee to look at 


                                                                   425

 1           solitary cells and redo them in a way that's 

 2           more humane and not in violation of the U.N. 

 3           rules around solitary confinement?

 4                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Well, I 

 5           can't make specific commitments about how we 

 6           spend capital.  

 7                  What I can tell you is I experienced 

 8           it myself.  All of the things that we're 

 9           doing is moving in the direction of making 

10           the conditions more humane as we build our 

11           RRUs.  

12                  The existing programs that are 

13           alternatives to SHU at Mid-State and at 

14           Lakeview and the step-down to the community 

15           at Wende all are designed to provide 

16           out-of-cell structured treatment and 

17           programming.  So the earphones that you can 

18           listen to the radio on, the tablet that you 

19           can make phone calls on, while we're moving 

20           to ultimately get the RRUs are ways that we 

21           are ameliorating.  

22                  One thing everybody should keep in 

23           mind:  The very purpose of this is 

24           separation.  If we lose the ability to 


                                                                   426

 1           separate those --

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Commissioner, I 

 3           only have a few seconds left, so I've got 

 4           to -- if I can just follow up on that issue.  

 5           You know, we've talked a lot to the inmates 

 6           who have limited access on the JPay system.  

 7           I'm wondering if we can get access to them, 

 8           maybe they could be -- we could get a tablet 

 9           and they could be just emailing our offices 

10           so we could follow up.  Would that be 

11           something you'd be open to?

12                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  I'm 

13           sorry, you want access to what?  

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  The tablets, 

15           JPay, so inmates could email our offices 

16           directly and communicate with us without 

17           having additional costs associated with that.  

18                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  I 

19           believe there's a way that they could send 

20           you an email, but they'd still have to pay 

21           for the stamp.  But I'll double-check on it.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Yeah, if there's 

23           a way to make it more accessible for us.

24                  And I know -- and on a second point, 


                                                                   427

 1           the early release time, and the costs 

 2           associated with inmates.  And I know I've run 

 3           out of time --

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  You have run out 

 5           of time, Harvey.  You can -- everyone can 

 6           submit their questions to Helene and I and 

 7           we'll write the commissioner or -- we're 

 8           asking him if he'll send us back -- or you 

 9           can write him separately or follow up with 

10           him separately.  

11                  But we've got to keep going.  I'm an 

12           equal-opportunity mean -- whatever.  

13           Moderator.  

14                  Okay.  Next is Carmen De La Rosa.

15                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN DE LA ROSA:  

16           Commissioner, thank you for being here and 

17           for coming before us.  

18                  I want to also echo the sentiments of 

19           many of my colleagues here.  I'm the main 

20           sponsor of the Elder Parole Law here in the 

21           Assembly.  And we know, because you said even 

22           in your last budget hearing, that at 55 

23           people who are in prison are considered 

24           seniors because of the conditions they live 


                                                                   428

 1           under.  

 2                  My question is more towards the 

 3           medical necessities, that these people who 

 4           are either terminal or have very high 

 5           critical needs, medical needs, what is the 

 6           cost associated with providing some of the 

 7           services that they require across the system?  

 8                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  I can't 

 9           give you the specific dollar figure, but you 

10           are correct, the older you get in prison, the 

11           more costly level of medical care you are 

12           required to receive.  And we do have 

13           arrangements with outside hospitals; if 

14           somebody needs hospitalization, they go on a 

15           secure ward until they're better.  They may 

16           recover in one of our regional medical units.  

17                  But clearly people -- the older they 

18           get, if they have hypertension, high blood 

19           pressure, some of them may have cancer -- 

20           whatever, it is we have to provide the 

21           treatment and we will do that.

22                  The medical parole issue is another 

23           important one.  And it is something that I 

24           try and prioritize whenever I get an 


                                                                   429

 1           application.  But read the statute in terms 

 2           of who's eligible and who's not -- there's a 

 3           hurdle that has to be overcome.  It can't 

 4           just be for somebody that's terminal; they 

 5           have to be so infirm that they can't 

 6           potentially pose a danger to society.  Which 

 7           is a high hurdle.

 8                  So I know people want a lot more 

 9           medical paroles, but there is the law that we 

10           have to abide by in that area.

11                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN DE LA ROSA:  Certainly.  

12                  And I did visit Fishkill Correctional 

13           Facility two weeks ago, and I saw their 

14           infirmary, state-of-the-art machines to deal 

15           with dialysis and infirm people.  

16                  But I also did walk through the wing 

17           where the developmentally disabled people 

18           were, as well as people who were on their 

19           deathbed.  These people do not pose a threat 

20           at all.  They can't even walk.  So I just 

21           want to bring that to your attention.  

22                  But I also wanted to ask you about the 

23           cost of something like dialysis machines, for 

24           example, for the department.  What does 


                                                                   430

 1           something like that cost you all a year?  

 2                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It's not 

 3           cheap.  Dialysis is expensive, and we have 

 4           them at several facilities.  But it is not 

 5           cheap by any means.  

 6                  One thing I will caution is that some 

 7           of these individuals that are infirm, like in 

 8           the unit for the cognitively impaired, it's 

 9           not easy, when it does come for them to be 

10           released, to find a nursing home that would 

11           accept them.  That is a very difficult chore 

12           for us.

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN DE LA ROSA:  That was 

14           actually my follow-up question.  

15                  Can you explain the biggest hurdle to 

16           finding housing for these people right now?

17                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  If some 

18           of them are sex offenders, it's very, very 

19           difficult to find nursing homes that would 

20           accept them.  And some of them, if they have 

21           no place, if they have no family, then your 

22           only option is a homeless shelter.  

23                  One of the things I prioritize is the 

24           use -- the work of social workers to 


                                                                   431

 1           reconnect people with their families.  In 

 2           Adirondack, where we have some elderly people 

 3           right now, we have social workers that are 

 4           reconnecting them with family that they've 

 5           been disconnected with for many, many years.  

 6                  When you reconnect with family, you 

 7           potentially have a home to go to when it's 

 8           time for your release.  So that's a priority 

 9           that we're pushing.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN DE LA ROSA:  Thank you.  

11           I'll come back for a second round later.  

12           Thank you.  

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And you won't, 

14           unfortunately; we're only allowing chairs to 

15           have a second round.  But you can follow up 

16           with the commissioner in a variety of ways.

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN DE LA ROSA:  I will.  

18           Thank you.  

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

20           much.  

21                  Next is Assemblymember Ra.  

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  

23                  Good afternoon.  I just wanted to 

24           first start with -- my colleague 


                                                                   432

 1           Mr. Palmesano had a question at the end that 

 2           he tried to sneak in, but he was foiled by 

 3           the chair -- 

 4                  (Laughter.)

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  -- so I wanted to ask 

 6           it for him.  It was regarding the youth that 

 7           were transferred from DOCCS facilities to 

 8           OCFS secure facilities last year pursuant to 

 9           last year's budget.  And who is supervising 

10           those youth?

11                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  OCFS, 

12           that agency.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.  And so they're 

14           supervised by their staff within the --

15                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Right.  

16           Right.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.  Thank you.

18                  The other questions we just had were 

19           regarding staffing at your facilities.  I 

20           mean, obviously I know of many entities 

21           throughout the state, especially in, you 

22           know, your type of facilities, that had to 

23           deal with staff quarantines due to exposures 

24           and all that type of stuff.


                                                                   433

 1                  How have you found that during this 

 2           almost year now with COVID -- do you have 

 3           enough correction officers to cover when 

 4           there were absences due to COVID or 

 5           quarantines?

 6                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It was a 

 7           big challenge at times.  It depended upon the 

 8           specific facility when we had high numbers.

 9                  I've been having regular phone calls 

10           with my superintendents, and we do monitor 

11           carefully.  We have a plan to go to 12-hour 

12           schedules if we reach a point where there's 

13           too many staff that are quarantined.  I mean, 

14           obviously the things that we've stopped -- 

15           visitation stopped, medical that's not an 

16           emergency, deathbed funeral -- deathbed 

17           visits, et cetera -- has allowed staff to be 

18           present to do other responsibilities.  

19                  But it has been a big challenge.  And 

20           again, I'm just so grateful for the staff 

21           helping pull us through this very challenging 

22           time.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.  And are there 

24           any plans at this point to run academy 


                                                                   434

 1           classes in the very near future?

 2                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  We do 

 3           foresee that we will have a need for a couple 

 4           of classes down the road in the upcoming 

 5           fiscal year.  And we do foresee parole 

 6           classes as well, a couple.  We don't have 

 7           them yet scheduled, but there clearly is a 

 8           need given the rate of attrition, which is 

 9           about 54 or 58 a pay period, of correctional 

10           staff.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.  And one other 

12           thing I wanted to ask about.  So years 

13           past -- and it's been a few years now, but 

14           DOCCS used to issue an annual report on 

15           recidivism.  And I believe it would take a 

16           few years of rolling data.  And my 

17           understanding is there hasn't been one 

18           released, I think, since 2012.  

19                  Are there any plans on releasing 

20           updated stats with regard to recidivism?

21                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  The 

22           three-year study I think is what you're 

23           referring to.  Let me check with our research 

24           unit when the next one is going to come out, 


                                                                   435

 1           and we'll get back to you.  

 2                  I can tell you that they have been 

 3           working tirelessly to keep accurate 

 4           statistical numbers on daily rates at every 

 5           one of our facilities -- how many tests are 

 6           performed, how many positive, how many 

 7           recovered, et cetera.  So they have been 

 8           doing extraordinary work so we can have 

 9           real-time data and put it on our website.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.  Thank you.  

11           We're definitely, you know, interested in 

12           those reports.  I think -- I think they're 

13           important for the Legislature to look at when 

14           we're making, you know, decisions in all 

15           different types of things.  

16                  So thank you, Acting Commissioner.

17                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Sure.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

19           Assemblymember Tannousis.  I apologize if I 

20           pronounced that wrong.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Hi, 

22           Commissioner, how are you?  Thank you for 

23           being here today.  

24                  I asked this question of the prior 


                                                                   436

 1           speaker, and he mentioned that you may be 

 2           able to help us better.  Would you be able to 

 3           tell us how many inmates in the state system 

 4           are there because of a marijuana-related 

 5           offense?  

 6                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Yeah, we 

 7           ran this analysis on December 12th of last 

 8           year -- someone else had asked the 

 9           question -- and there was a total of 21 whose 

10           most serious crime of commitment was a 

11           marijuana offense.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Out of how 

13           many inmates in the entire New York State?  

14                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Today we 

15           have 33,100 something, I think.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  So it's 

17           21 individuals from 33,000 New York State 

18           inmates are there for a marijuana-related 

19           offense.

20                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  The top 

21           offense is a marijuana offense, yes.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Thank you very 

23           much.  And thank you for your service.

24                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Thank 


                                                                   437

 1           you, Assemblyman.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  You're ceding 

 3           back your time?

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Yes, thank 

 5           you.  

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 7                  And Assemblymember Anna Kelles.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Hi, thank you.

 9                  I have a few questions.  One -- I'm 

10           just going to jump right into them for the 

11           lack of time.  So it was so good to meet you.  

12                  First question, to clarify something 

13           that was brought up earlier with respect to 

14           solitary.  So recognizing that people in 

15           prison are already being moved anyway because 

16           they're being moved into solitary, I'm trying 

17           to understand the opposition with the 

18           financial justification.  If they're already 

19           being moved into these facilities and out of 

20           them into the solitary, and you are already 

21           building the rehabilitation units, I'm trying 

22           to understand where the expense is that you 

23           were talking about.  

24                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  The 


                                                                   438

 1           expense is primarily in additional staffing 

 2           that are going to have to transport them on 

 3           Day 16 -- if that's the day that we have to 

 4           move them, under the bill -- to a distant 

 5           RRU.  

 6                  Whereas there will be shorter 

 7           sentences, like 30 days, and they can stay 

 8           where they are.  Plus you have to pack up all 

 9           their property and transport it with them to 

10           another distant RRU.  If they can stay where 

11           they are, the property can remain there.  It 

12           will still be packed up, but not have to be 

13           moved to a distant facility.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  I'm sorry, just 

15           to understand --

16                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Most of 

17           that expense --

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  You have to 

19           transfer them anyway, correct, when you bring 

20           them out of solitary.  I'm just trying to 

21           understand.  I mean, you would transfer them 

22           anyway when they're coming out of solitary, 

23           so the timing of having --

24                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  We're 


                                                                   439

 1           not transferring them to another facility.  

 2           They could -- their cell could even be 

 3           remaining there for them to be back into that 

 4           same cell.

 5                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  And another 

 6           question -- thank you.  How many people leave 

 7           the prison system, do you know or keep track 

 8           of, and go into the homeless shelter system?  

 9                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It's not 

10           a low number.  I can get it for you.  But it 

11           is not a low number.  And --

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Yeah, that 

13           would be really wonderful to get that.  I'm 

14           curious, is there any program in place to 

15           coordinate with DSS potentially to work with 

16           people before they leave the system, to get 

17           them into services?

18                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Yes.  

19                  Well, first of all, let me back up.  

20           We work four months prior to a release date 

21           with the individual, trying to get them into 

22           approvable housing.  

23                  If they come up to the release date 

24           and we can't find them, we coordinate with 


                                                                   440

 1           the local DSS, we give them notification so 

 2           that they're aware on this day, this 

 3           individual is coming out and he will require 

 4           some type of services.

 5                  We also have, you know, contracts with 

 6           housing -- limited, but we do have the 

 7           ability for housing.

 8                  We also have relationships with two 

 9           entities, CEO and PLS as well.  They've 

10           secured funding, stipends to give to 

11           individuals who are released into certain 

12           areas, like the Bronx or Manhattan or other 

13           parts of the state so that they can help pay 

14           for some type of housing when they get there.  

15                  So there's a lot of different things 

16           that are out there.  But even before COVID, 

17           it was a big challenge.  It's only that much 

18           more difficult now.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Yeah, that data 

20           would be great.  Thank you so much.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

22                  Okay, we're going to our final two 

23           chairs for their second five-minute rounds.  

24           First, Chair Julia Salazar.


                                                                   441

 1                  SENATOR SALAZAR:  Thank you, Chair.

 2                  Commissioner, if I may follow up on 

 3           Senator Bailey's question regarding Tier 3 

 4           violations, could you briefly define what is 

 5           no longer defined to be a Tier 3 violation?

 6                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  We just 

 7           published the regulations on that.  There's a 

 8           number of them that are no longer Tier 3.  I 

 9           don't have them off the top of my head, but I 

10           certainly can pull that information together 

11           and get it to you.

12                  SENATOR SALAZAR:  Excellent.  Thank 

13           you.

14                  And I wanted to ask, when DOCCS 

15           reports or records the number of people who 

16           are currently held in special housing units 

17           in state facilities, does that include people 

18           who are kept in keeplock in their own cells, 

19           meaning, you know, people who are confined 

20           for 17 hours or more for disciplinary 

21           purposes?  And if it doesn't, could you tell 

22           me how many people are currently kept in 

23           keeplock or for the disciplinary purposes in 

24           their general population cells?  


                                                                   442

 1                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Yeah, if 

 2           you're in keeplock in your own cell, you're 

 3           not in SHU.  We do keep track of that 

 4           population.  We do have separate amenities 

 5           for them and, as you mentioned, five hours 

 6           time out of cell to still go to programming, 

 7           et cetera.  

 8                  It is possible that you could be 

 9           serving a keeplock sentence in an SHU cell, 

10           in which case other things kick in and you 

11           will earn an earlier release.  You get more 

12           credit if you're serving keeplock in an 

13           SHU cell.  

14                  So I will get you, if you want, the 

15           total-number breakdown as of a particular 

16           date.

17                  SENATOR SALAZAR:  Thank you.  

18                  And I wanted to go back to COVID-19 

19           regulations.  

20                  Actually, how many people who are 

21           incarcerated have applied for medical parole 

22           since the pandemic struck last March, 

23           approximately?  

24                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It's a 


                                                                   443

 1           high number.  I don't remember it off the top 

 2           of my head, but it is a high number that have 

 3           applied.

 4                  But remember, a lot of people applied 

 5           because they felt, I am at risk because I 

 6           have asthma or I'm a smoker or whatever it 

 7           is.  And that's not a ground under the 

 8           statute the way it's written, 259R and S in 

 9           the Executive Law, of the standard you have 

10           to meet.  You actually have to have a 

11           condition that's either terminal or so 

12           debilitating that you can't reasonably pose a 

13           risk to the public.

14                  And we've had a bad experience, even 

15           someone in a wheelchair who ended up in a 

16           nursing home was able to sexually molest 

17           another patient in that nursing home, even 

18           though when they were with us, it took them 

19           half an hour to go 30 feet in their 

20           wheelchair.

21                  SENATOR SALAZAR:  So I guess the 

22           question is, more broadly, how many people 

23           have been released from prisons in New York 

24           specifically for COVID-19-related reasons, 


                                                                   444

 1           including medical parole?  

 2                  It sounds like you don't have the 

 3           number exactly.  Actually, you know what, 

 4           I'll just ask you:  What was the rationale 

 5           for the COVID-19-related release eligibility 

 6           that DOCCS had set up being limited to people 

 7           who were within 90 days of their release 

 8           date, limited to those who were convicted of 

 9           nonviolent crimes?  What was the rationale 

10           for that eligibility?

11                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It was a 

12           balancing of public health and public safety.  

13                  These were individuals that were 

14           scheduled to be released within 90 days, so 

15           we created the legal means for that to happen 

16           by transferring their legal status to a 

17           residential treatment facility.  And then on 

18           that basis, they physically were allowed to 

19           go home, if they had one, they had approved 

20           housing.  We didn't want to just release them 

21           into the homeless shelter.  

22                  So they were non-sex -- nonviolent 

23           individuals and less risk to the public.  But 

24           achieving less density while they were still 


                                                                   445

 1           in the correctional system.

 2                  SENATOR SALAZAR:  And for the 

 3           COVID-19-related release mechanism that DOCCS 

 4           had initially set up last April, I understand 

 5           it was limited to people aged 55 and older, 

 6           in addition to the previously mentioned 

 7           criteria.  

 8                  What was the rationale for that age 

 9           criteria initially?  Is 55 the age at which 

10           DOCCS defines people as aging or elders in 

11           prison?

12                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It's 

13           something, you know, that researchers have 

14           basically said it's -- it's a good measure.  

15                  The 65 and older in a community 

16           translates to 55 and older in prison for two 

17           reasons.  One, a lot of the cohort that are 

18           incarcerated have neglected their health 

19           concerns.  Many of them are smokers, many of 

20           them drinkers, maybe they use drugs, 

21           whatever.  When they come to us, they're 

22           already, you know, at a disadvantage.  

23                  Prison is stressful, that can also 

24           exacerbate things.  So 55 and older is a 


                                                                   446

 1           decent benchmark to look at and consider 

 2           people to be, you know, a senior cohort, so 

 3           to speak.

 4                  SENATOR SALAZAR:  Thank you, 

 5           Commissioner.  That's my time.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 7                  So since I'm only north of 55, I'm not 

 8           sure how I'm feeling about this discussion, 

 9           but we'll leave that alone for now.

10                  I am going to allow Assemblymember 

11           Aubry, who snuck in with his hand very late 

12           in the game, to jump in for three minutes 

13           before I go to Assemblymember Weprin to 

14           close.

15                  Hello, Assemblymember Aubry.  You're 

16           not -- you're muted.  I feel you're driving 

17           and you have no voice.  There you go.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN AUBRY:  I have a voice 

19           now.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN AUBRY:  Good.

22                  Commissioner, good to see you.  I 

23           think you've got to be the longest acting 

24           commissioner that I've ever heard of in the 


                                                                   447

 1           state system.  And I know there's no Tony 

 2           Award, there won't be an Emmy, but it's good 

 3           to see you.  Glad that you're still around.

 4                  I have two questions.  One, what is 

 5           the current budget for the prison industry 

 6           component of the corrections system?

 7                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  You 

 8           know, I have that number, but I just haven't 

 9           memorized it.  It's a separate appropriation 

10           in our budget.  But I can get you that 

11           number, Assemblyman.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN AUBRY:  Okay.  That would 

13           be helpful.  

14                  And the second, the rules that were 

15           agreed to, or the agreement made by the 

16           leaders two years ago with the Governor in 

17           regard to the maintenance of SHU took a very 

18           long time to get approved.  Is there any 

19           reason why it took so long?

20                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  The 

21           rules were studied for quite some time.  And, 

22           you know, we had to get public comments from 

23           people.  There was just a lot of different 

24           complications to consider them.  


                                                                   448

 1                  But they've been adopted.  They 

 2           definitely changed things in dramatic ways.  

 3           And we'd love to be able to explain to staff 

 4           everything that has been done to get us to 

 5           where we are today, everything that will be 

 6           done to get us to where we are, you know, as 

 7           the RRUs come on board and all the different 

 8           amenities that you can get as conditions of 

 9           confinement.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN AUBRY:  The -- those rules 

11           also now have been adopted for localities.  

12           Is there any assistance that is going to be 

13           provided through the Executive Budget for 

14           those localities to implement the same rules?

15                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  I -- I 

16           can't speak to the localities, Assemblyman.  

17           I'm unaware of, you know, whatever 

18           arrangements have been made and what role an 

19           entity like the State Commission of 

20           Correction might play vis-a-vis them.  I 

21           don't have any firsthand knowledge of that.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN AUBRY:  Okay.  Thank you 

23           very much.  Sorry to hold you up.

24                  Thank you, Senator, for -- 


                                                                   449

 1                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  This is 

 2           my Academy Award, by the way (holding up 

 3           Oscar statuette).

 4                  (Laughter.)

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN AUBRY:  I could never 

 6           trust you to keep straight, you know?  

 7                  Take care, my man.

 8                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Good 

 9           seeing you, Assemblyman.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN AUBRY:  Good to see you 

11           too.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, 

13           Assemblymember.  

14                  And now to close, chair of the 

15           committee, Assemblymember Weprin.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Thank you, 

17           Senator Krueger.  

18                  And thank you, Commissioner, for being 

19           patient through these many hours of 

20           testimony.

21                  I understand -- I have a bill that 

22           just passed out of committee, it seems like a 

23           long time ago but it was actually this 

24           morning.  And it would basically give you 


                                                                   450

 1           more authority to release inmates to home 

 2           confinement, similar to the federal system.  

 3                  And I know you've pointed out that 

 4           medical parole, you know, is not necessarily 

 5           the end-all and it's not solving some of the 

 6           problems.  So the question I have for you is, 

 7           is that something you would support?  And 

 8           we're hoping to -- you know, to have that in 

 9           place.

10                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  

11           Assemblyman, I love the working relationship 

12           you and I have, and the mutual respect, but 

13           as you know, I can't comment on pending 

14           legislation, so I will not be able to give 

15           you any feedback on that.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Okay.  I'm going 

17           to just ask a couple of questions about aging 

18           in prison, because I know that's been coming 

19           up and I know there's strong support for some 

20           form of an elder parole bill, which has been 

21           around for a long time.

22                  How many people 55 years or older are 

23           currently in DOCCS custody?  And I know 

24           you're obviously focusing on 65 for the 


                                                                   451

 1           vaccine.  But can you give us some kind of a 

 2           figure on how many we now have over 55?

 3                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  I might 

 4           be able to.  I have someone in my office 

 5           trying to look that up very quickly.  

 6                  I know it was slightly more than a 

 7           thousand who are 65 and older.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  So 55 is much 

 9           higher, obviously.

10                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Yeah, 

11           no, it is much higher.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  What would be the 

13           average cost of incarcerating an older 

14           person, and how does that compare to a 

15           younger person?  Because I know there are a 

16           lot of medical issues associated.  And as you 

17           pointed out at a prior hearing a number of 

18           years ago, that people age much quicker in 

19           prison and 55 is really -- in the outside 

20           world is equivalent to someone much older.

21                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  The 

22           answer to your earlier question, it's about 

23           5,000 individuals that are 55 and older in 

24           our system.


                                                                   452

 1                  And I believe someone else previously 

 2           asked the difference in the cost.  It's -- 

 3           there is a higher cost for individuals that 

 4           are older, their medical needs are 

 5           exacerbated.  But I can't give you a dollar 

 6           figure.  It would be something very hard to 

 7           quantify, really, when you look at the 

 8           different units that we have and the dialysis 

 9           and the regional medical units and the unit 

10           for the cognitively impaired.  

11                  I will tell you, though, that we are 

12           trying to institute good programming for them 

13           to make them feel at ease and make them still 

14           feel important.  We may, you know, start a 

15           feline program at Adirondack and a college 

16           program.  You're never too old to go to 

17           college.  So, you know, we do try and keep 

18           them feeling useful and important and having 

19           value.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Okay.  Thank you, 

21           Commissioner.

22                  I know the issue of tracking deaths in 

23           prison -- you know, and illness as well -- 

24           has been a current issue.  Let me ask you a 


                                                                   453

 1           question.  If an inmate serving a DOCCS 

 2           sentence dies in a hospital or ambulance, how 

 3           is that death classified?  

 4                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  It's 

 5           counted as a DOCCS death.  It will require an 

 6           autopsy to be performed by the coroner.  

 7           Every DOCCS death, a facility death is by a 

 8           coroner.  In fact, the Correction Law 

 9           specifies that when we send people to outside 

10           hospitals, they are legally still in our care 

11           and custody.  We just enforce appropriate 

12           security measures.  

13                  So every single individual, if they're 

14           in the ambulance on their way, they're in an 

15           outside hospital, whatever they are, they're 

16           counted as a death of a correctional 

17           facility, an autopsy is required, we 

18           reimburse the locality for the cost of the 

19           autopsy.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Good.  I'm happy 

21           to hear that, because that has been an issue, 

22           as you know, with nursing homes.  And 

23           certainly, you know, we would consider that a 

24           death as well from a correctional facility.


                                                                   454

 1                  I've got 30 seconds.  Let me just ask, 

 2           of -- let me see what I didn't cover.  How 

 3           often are inmates tested for COVID?  Or is it 

 4           only symptom-related and requests?

 5                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  No, we 

 6           basically tested the entire system.  We 

 7           started with those that were displaying 

 8           symptoms.  We expanded that for asymptomatic, 

 9           then we expanded it to those in quarantine.  

10           Then we did certain cohorts like the seniors.  

11           And then we finally did the entire system.  

12                  And right now we continue to test 

13           anybody that's displaying symptoms or in 

14           quarantine, including asymptomatic.  And now 

15           we also superimposed on top of that a 

16           randomized selection, depending upon the size 

17           of the population at a particular facility.  

18           We go to different housing units, and various 

19           people are selected randomly so that we can 

20           get real feedback as to the presence of COVID 

21           in our system.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN:  Okay.  Thank you, 

23           Commissioner.  

24                  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I think my 


                                                                   455

 1           time has expired.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yes, it has.  

 3                  And Commissioner, not really, but your 

 4           time has expired with us.  So thank you very 

 5           much for being here with us, and I guess for 

 6           being the longest living acting commissioner 

 7           in New York State.

 8                  ACTING COMMISSIONER ANNUCCI:  Thank 

 9           you very much.  It was my pleasure.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

11                  All right, and now we're going to call 

12           up our eighth government representative for 

13           today's hearing, and that is -- and I see 

14           that he's here patiently waiting -- 

15           Acting Superintendent Kevin Bruen, New York 

16           State Division of State Police.

17                  Hello, Acting Commissioner -- Acting 

18           Superintendent, excuse me.  

19                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Yes, 

20           thank you very much.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

22                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Thank 

23           you, Chairs Krueger and Weinstein and 

24           distinguished members of the joint committee, 


                                                                   456

 1           for the opportunity to discuss 

 2           Governor Cuomo's Executive Budget for the 

 3           Division of State Police.  

 4                  I am Kevin Bruen, acting 

 5           superintendent.  I've served the agency in 

 6           various capacities for 17 years and as acting 

 7           superintendent since November 2020.  I am 

 8           truly honored to lead the dedicated sworn and 

 9           civilian members of this great agency.  

10                  I would like to thank the Legislature 

11           for recognizing our critical mission -- to 

12           protect and serve all New Yorkers.  Your 

13           support has enabled the State Police to earn 

14           its reputation as one of the top law 

15           enforcement agencies in the nation.  

16                  For more than 100 years, the 

17           State Police has consistently provided a high 

18           level of professional public service.  We 

19           learn and adapt to the needs of a constantly 

20           changing society, and we strive for 

21           continuous improvement in every aspect of our 

22           work.  

23                  Our mission priorities include 

24           improving highway safety; providing 


                                                                   457

 1           professional police services and 

 2           investigative support; detecting and 

 3           preventing terrorism; and preparing for and 

 4           responding to emergencies and disasters.  

 5                  2020 brought several challenges to 

 6           New York, none more so than the COVID-19 

 7           pandemic.  I am proud that our Troopers have 

 8           worked continuously for the state as we have 

 9           played and continue to play a significant 

10           role in the state's response, including the 

11           transportation of thousands of test samples 

12           from across the state to the Wadsworth 

13           Laboratory in Albany; assisting in 

14           establishing, operating and securing state 

15           COVID testing sites and vaccination sites; 

16           and supporting other state and local agencies 

17           in enforcement operations to help stem the 

18           spread of the virus.  

19                  As you know, the State Police is 

20           unique in that we are the only full-service 

21           New York law enforcement agency with 

22           statewide jurisdiction.  In response to 

23           emergencies or natural disasters, the 

24           State Police has the ability to deploy large 


                                                                   458

 1           numbers of professionally trained police 

 2           officers throughout the state and beyond on 

 3           short notice.  For instance, last summer, 

 4           following the death of George Floyd in 

 5           Minneapolis, our Troopers were deployed 

 6           throughout New York, at the request of 

 7           numerous local and city police agencies, to 

 8           assist with efforts to ensure public safety.  

 9                  Over the past year, the Governor and 

10           the Legislature have enacted several police 

11           reforms, including a new body-worn camera 

12           program directed at the State Police.  Since 

13           its passage in June, we have worked 

14           diligently to implement this program.  

15                  The Governor and the State Police 

16           recognize the dynamic nature of terrorism and 

17           extremism of all types around the world and 

18           domestically.  Our role in the state's 

19           counterterrorism efforts help provide a wide 

20           range of initiatives and capabilities, 

21           enabling New York to remain one of the safest 

22           states in the country.  

23                  New York City remains a top terrorist 

24           target, and our expanded presence in the 


                                                                   459

 1           city -- primarily at mass transit hubs and 

 2           bridge and tunnel crossings -- has enhanced 

 3           the collective efforts of the state and our 

 4           partner agencies to detect, deter and respond 

 5           to terrorism.  

 6                  Disaster preparedness is a top 

 7           priority of the Governor, and we continue to 

 8           partner with the Division of Homeland 

 9           Security and Emergency Services to improve 

10           response readiness.  This partnership has 

11           enabled the State Police to better coordinate 

12           with state agencies and provide local support 

13           to communities following significant events.  

14                  Illegal drug use, in particular the 

15           availability of heroin, opioids and synthetic 

16           drugs such as fentanyl, along with the toll 

17           they inflict, remains a critical public 

18           safety issue.  Building on the resources and 

19           training provided over the past few years, 

20           the State Police will continue to 

21           aggressively investigate drug-related 

22           offenses, particularly criminal trafficking, 

23           as well as assist local police agencies with 

24           their investigations whenever requested.  


                                                                   460

 1                  Our highest priority continues to be 

 2           the safety of the public and our Troopers who 

 3           protect them.  With your support, the 

 4           Executive Budget continues to provide our 

 5           Troopers with the necessary equipment, 

 6           training and other valuable resources to 

 7           achieve the best levels of safety as they 

 8           carry out their duties.  

 9                  Again, I am exceedingly honored to 

10           represent the nearly 6,000 dedicated men and 

11           women of the Division of State Police that 

12           serve and protect the people of this great 

13           state.  They do so selflessly, with 

14           tremendous pride, and at times with great 

15           personal sacrifice.  

16                  I thank you for your support on behalf 

17           of the State Police, and I welcome any 

18           questions. 

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

20           much.

21                  Our first questioner will be 

22           Senator Jamaal Bailey, chair of Codes, 

23           five minutes.

24                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Thank you, 


                                                                   461

 1           Madam Chair.

 2                  Thank you, Acting Superintendent, for 

 3           your leadership and for your testimony.  I 

 4           guess I just want to get into the 

 5           conversation about the body cameras.

 6                  So what is the exact amount of body 

 7           cameras that will be provided in this 

 8           contract?

 9                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  I'll 

10           have to get you the exact number.  

11                  The number is going to be sufficient 

12           to cover the Troopers on patrol who will need 

13           to have them, as well as backups should they 

14           go down, and they need to be recharged and 

15           the data needs to be uploaded.  So we have to 

16           have a certain number to cover that.

17                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  And I guess 

18           that was my next question.  

19                  So on patrol, is it -- so they would 

20           be given to individuals who are actively on 

21           patrol at that time?  And would they be 

22           switched out from member to member?  Would 

23           they be permanently assigned, or how would 

24           the body cameras be assigned?


                                                                   462

 1                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  The body 

 2           cameras are assigned to the members, 

 3           partially because they need to be recharged.  

 4                  The shift lasts 12 hours.  The data 

 5           they collect needs to be uploaded.  The 

 6           upload speeds -- as you can imagine, the 

 7           connectivity is better in some places than it 

 8           is at others.  

 9                  So there will be enough body cameras 

10           so that an individual going out on patrol 

11           will have one.

12                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  Undoubtedly 

13           highlighting the need for more broadband 

14           around the state, especially in the upstate 

15           regions.

16                  So the access to that body camera 

17           footage, would that be limited to that -- 

18           again, that individual officer, or would that 

19           be available to other folks, such as 

20           superiors or other officers?

21                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Well, 

22           it's going to be available to other officers, 

23           other Troopers, investigators.  It may be 

24           available for other purposes as well.


                                                                   463

 1                  There will be audits to make someone 

 2           that the Troopers are engaging the cameras 

 3           when they should be.  It will -- the data can 

 4           be uploaded and associated -- in association 

 5           with a criminal case and provided to the 

 6           district attorney and ultimately the defense.  

 7                  It will be stored and it could be used 

 8           and FOILed should someone want that body 

 9           camera footage for an auto accident or 

10           something that they deem necessary.

11                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  And if an 

12           officer is found not to have properly engaged 

13           the body camera, are there going to be 

14           disciplinary procedures?  If so, what would 

15           they be?

16                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Well, 

17           you can't specify exactly what the result of 

18           a particular disciplinary procedure would be.  

19                  But I have to tell you, the State 

20           Police, we have a rule for everything, or it 

21           feels like it sometimes.  And if you are 

22           given a piece of equipment and we have rules 

23           that say you need to engage it under specific 

24           circumstances and you don't do it, you will 


                                                                   464

 1           get supervisory attention and it can 

 2           escalate, depending on what happens.

 3                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Okay.  I mean, that's 

 4           the -- well, I guess I want to ask one more 

 5           policy-related question that I asked 

 6           Commissioner Greene from DCJS.  And you may 

 7           have a similar answer, but I figure I'll ask 

 8           it of the State Police superintendent.  

 9                  Any position on the use of kettling or 

10           certain irritants during protests?  Is there 

11           a position that the State Police has on that?

12                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  The 

13           position that we have is that the interaction 

14           with mass demonstrations and protests are 

15           delicate, and they need to be handled with 

16           planning, they need to be handled with 

17           training, they need to be handled with 

18           express supervision.

19                  I wasn't familiar with the term 

20           "kettling" until I heard you use it.  And, 

21           you know, I'm now aware of it.  We don't use 

22           that practice in specific because as I 

23           understand it, that practice would force 

24           people into an area where they can't get out 


                                                                   465

 1           of, and we simply don't do that.

 2                  But the fact of the matter is that 

 3           those -- what starts out as a peaceful 

 4           protest can turn difficult, and we have to 

 5           have the rules of engagement and the 

 6           operational plan that we have set out before 

 7           we engage with the public.  So before 

 8           anything happens, we need to lay those things 

 9           out.  

10                  We do have a highly trained, specific 

11           unit that will often do this sort of work, 

12           and we have a very explicit, you know, manual 

13           that governs their action, that lays out -- 

14           this is people's First Amendment rights.  

15           People's First Amendment rights need to be 

16           respected and ensured that they can carry on 

17           peaceful protests.

18                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Well, let me thank 

19           you for your testimony, and let me also say 

20           thank you to the women and men who serve our 

21           state.  We appreciate the sacrifice that they 

22           make for our state.

23                  And on a personal level, I appreciate 

24           you opening up the gym to us on Tuesday 


                                                                   466

 1           nights during better times on Washington 

 2           Avenue so that some members and I, we can 

 3           play basketball.  So I just --

 4                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Any 

 5           time, Senator.  Just don't ask me to play.

 6                  (Laughter.)

 7                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Listen, when we're 

 8           back, you have the keys, literally and 

 9           figuratively, so --

10                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  I'll 

11           open the door, but I'm not playing.

12                  (Laughter.)

13                  SENATOR BAILEY:  I appreciate you.  

14           Thank you very much.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Now we jump to 

16           what really Jamaal Bailey cares about, so 

17           thank you --

18                  SENATOR BAILEY:  Basketball and 

19           policy, you know.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I know, I know, 

21           it's a good mix.

22                  Assemblymember Dinowitz.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Thank you.  

24                  So when New York passed the SAFE Act, 


                                                                   467

 1           it unfortunately ended its own attempt at 

 2           creating a database to connect and submit all 

 3           ballistic evidence of weapons sold in 

 4           New York.  

 5                  Do you know, when will the state 

 6           create its ammunition database to track sales 

 7           to residents who may be assembling deadly 

 8           stores of ammunition, as mandated by the 

 9           SAFE Act?  Because it's kind of been a long 

10           time already.

11                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  I think 

12           you're referring to the NIBIN system, which 

13           was shut down, which was -- collected 

14           expended brass when a gun was sold, and the 

15           creation of the -- and that was true, that 

16           was shut down.  I don't believe anyone uses 

17           it anymore.

18                  And you're talking about the recurring 

19           issue of the ammunition database --

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Yes.

21                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  -- to 

22           check whether someone is lawfully able to 

23           purchase ammunition.

24                  That continues to be an IT issue, and 


                                                                   468

 1           it continues to be not in a current position 

 2           to be deployed effectively.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Okay.  I would 

 4           just urge that we try to address that issue.

 5                  Two years ago the Legislature enacted 

 6           a law that allows law enforcement to remove 

 7           firearms from people charged with domestic 

 8           violence offenses, and it also allows courts 

 9           to revoke or suspend their firearms licenses.

10                  This information is then reported to 

11           the State Police and DCJS, presumably for 

12           inclusion in the statewide license and record 

13           database established by the SAFE Act.

14                  Now, from what I understand, this 

15           license and record database, like the 

16           ammunition database, is still not operational 

17           seven years later.  Is that true?  I 

18           understand it's true, but I just want to 

19           double-check that.  Is that the case?

20                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  No, I 

21           understand that is an ongoing effort as far 

22           as that part of it is going.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Ongoing to 

24           establish it or that it's already working?


                                                                   469

 1                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  No, it's 

 2           an ongoing effort to make it operational.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Right.  It's -- 

 4           okay.  I mean, it's been a couple of years 

 5           already --

 6                  (Overtalk.)

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  I'm sorry, go 

 8           on.

 9                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  The 

10           challenges are significant due to the nature 

11           of the way and the length of time that we've 

12           had the pistol permit database and pistol 

13           permit records.  They are on many different 

14           platforms, and that data has to be cleaned 

15           up.

16                  In addition, we have the ongoing 

17           reregistration and registration of the 

18           assault weapons and the pistol permits.

19                  But I understand your concern.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Do you have a 

21           timetable at this point, or is it pretty much 

22           open-ended?

23                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  I don't 

24           have a timetable, but I can get one.


                                                                   470

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  I'd appreciate 

 2           it.

 3                  And what about the ammunition 

 4           database?  Do we -- I mean, that's a pretty 

 5           long delay.  Do we have a timetable for that?

 6                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  I don't, 

 7           but I can follow up with IT.  It's largely an 

 8           IT program at this point.  It's, you know, a 

 9           heavy lift to work that out.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ:  Okay.  Thank 

11           you very much.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay, thank you.  

13                  Senator O'Mara has popped into the 

14           scene.  Hello, ranker on Finance.

15                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Hello, Chairwoman.  

16           I've been here all along, just been quiet. 

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I know, but we 

18           haven't heard from you all day, so I was a 

19           little worried about you.

20                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Superintendent, thank 

21           you for being here today and thank you for 

22           your long and really great role and career in 

23           law enforcement with the New York State 

24           Police.


                                                                   471

 1                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Yes, 

 2           sir.

 3                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Can you kind of 

 4           describe for us, with the prospect of the 

 5           legalization of recreational marijuana, 

 6           what -- first of all, how is enforcement 

 7           going to be handled with that, since we don't 

 8           have a Breathalyzer-type test for that?  And 

 9           what additional resources is the State Police 

10           going to need in regards to impaired driving 

11           while intoxicated under the influence of 

12           marijuana?  

13                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  So we 

14           enforce driving while impaired right now.  We 

15           do successfully, and it largely is not going 

16           to change.  It will change in one significant 

17           way with the Governor's program bill, and 

18           that is it will allow us to take saliva like 

19           a breath test.  

20                  There is a test at the lab that is 

21           ready to go, and I have spoken with my 

22           toxicology people and they feel that they can 

23           handle the test and the increase, if there is 

24           some increased number of tests.  


                                                                   472

 1                  But the approach to intoxicated 

 2           driving is going to remain the same.  We 

 3           teach at the academy right now every person 

 4           graduating as a Trooper from the New York 

 5           State Police Academy is what's known as an 

 6           ARIDE.  An ARIDE is not a DRE, but it's an 

 7           enhanced detection training program.  It's a 

 8           two-day course in the detection of 

 9           drug-influenced driving.  

10                  Also, within the year we're going to 

11           have every Trooper trained as an ARIDE.  So 

12           we're going to have that in our back pocket 

13           as well.  

14                  But the core policing mission will 

15           remain the same:  Observations of erratic 

16           driving, pulling someone over, gathering 

17           evidence by paying attention, engaging the 

18           driver in conversation and observing the 

19           driver's behavior, gathering the evidence of 

20           impairment, getting the saliva sample and 

21           having it sent down to the lab to determine 

22           whether --

23                  SENATOR O'MARA:  On the saliva 

24           sample -- I'm not familiar with that -- is 


                                                                   473

 1           that going to indicate like a blood alcohol 

 2           level, the THC blood level?

 3                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  That's a 

 4           good question, and I asked it myself 

 5           recently.  And the answer is no, it's not.  

 6           What it's going to do is detect the presence 

 7           of THC.  The challenges with THC in 

 8           determining, based on a particular level 

 9           impairment, remain.  That's an ongoing 

10           scientific kind of discussion.  

11                  That's why the Trooper's observation 

12           of impairment is critical:  Do you have 

13           marijuana in your system, and did it impair 

14           your driving?  

15                  SENATOR O'MARA:  I think that's going 

16           to be problematic, since THC stays in your 

17           blood system far longer than alcohol does.  

18           So I would think that would be unfair 

19           evidence in many cases, perhaps, for somebody 

20           that is not under the influence but may have 

21           smoked marijuana 10 days before.

22                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Well, 

23           you've hit upon the exact issue.  And that is 

24           why I said it's two pieces.  One, do you have 


                                                                   474

 1           marijuana in your system?  And were you -- is 

 2           there evidence of impairment, sufficient 

 3           evidence of impairment, beyond a reasonable 

 4           doubt or probable cause, depending on the 

 5           place you're at.  That's the standard we have 

 6           now.  And that's the standard we've had for 

 7           years.  

 8                  Is there evidence you've taken 

 9           marijuana, and can the police -- the Trooper, 

10           county sheriff, or a city police officer -- 

11           by evidence or testimony or other things 

12           indicate that your driving was impaired?  

13                  SENATOR O'MARA:  What will the policy 

14           of the New York State Police be regarding 

15           marijuana use of State Troopers?  

16                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  They 

17           will not be able to use recreational 

18           marijuana.

19                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Okay.  Thank you.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

21                  Next up is Assemblymember Chuck 

22           Lavine.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you.  

24                  And thank you, Acting Superintendent.  


                                                                   475

 1                  Two things I'd like to discuss.  First 

 2           of all, following the brutal assault on the 

 3           United States Capitol on January 6th, when I 

 4           learned that the State Police were going to 

 5           be watching our State Capitol, that gave me 

 6           great comfort.  So thank you, and please 

 7           thank the members of the State Police for 

 8           that.

 9                  Secondly, Scott Beigel was a 

10           New Yorker.  I don't know whether his name is 

11           offhand familiar to you, but being a 

12           New Yorker didn't --

13                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Sure.  

14           Marjory Stoneman, I think.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Yes.  Yes.  

16                  But being a New Yorker didn't make him 

17           a hero, but protecting his students at 

18           Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School nearly 

19           three years ago in Parkland, Florida, and 

20           saving them, during which he was murdered -- 

21           he was a hero.  

22                  So the State Senate today passed the 

23           Scott J. Beigel Unfinished Receiver Act, 

24           making it illegal in the State of New York 


                                                                   476

 1           for nonlicensed gunsmiths to possess the 

 2           component parts that are used to make 

 3           do-it-yourself ghost guns, and making it 

 4           illegal to sell those.

 5                  Now, we have seen people arrested in 

 6           New York State -- on Long Island, in 

 7           Port Washington, in Orange County, in 

 8           Syracuse.  And in 2020, in Syracuse, the 

 9           police confiscated 25 ghost guns.  And the 

10           list goes on and on and on.  And the FBI 

11           instructs us that between 2010 and 2020, 

12           there were more than 2500 arrests for ghost 

13           guns.

14                  So a question I have for you -- and 

15           let me just set it up this way.  The District 

16           of Columbia and other states are considering 

17           making the possession and sale of the 

18           component parts of these do-it-yourself 

19           sophisticated tactical weapons illegal.

20                  The question I have for you is, is 

21           this a cause for concern?  Is the ready and 

22           easy ability to build these weapons from 

23           purchases online, in the open source market, 

24           is that a cause for concern for those of us 


                                                                   477

 1           in the State of New York?

 2                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Without 

 3           commenting on potential legislation, 

 4           nonserialized guns, untraceable guns, are a 

 5           concern.  

 6                  If you had asked me that question five 

 7           years ago, even two or three years ago, I 

 8           would have said they're not prevalent in 

 9           New York.  One, two, three, four, five cases 

10           a year.  And I would have said they largely 

11           appear in Western -- meaning Western United 

12           States, in gang-related kind of contexts.  

13                  But that is not true in 2020.  We've 

14           seen a substantial jump, upstate and in 

15           New York City, of the use and recovery of 

16           ghost guns.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you, 

18           Acting Commissioner.  And please give our 

19           warmest regards and gratitude to the men and 

20           women of our State Police.  Thank you.

21                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Thank 

22           you.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

24           much.  


                                                                   478

 1                  We have Assemblymember -- well, 

 2           actually, since he's a ranker, let's do 

 3           Assemblymember Lawler for five minutes, 

 4           ranker on Government Ops.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Thank you.  

 6                  Appreciate your time today.

 7                  Just following up on the cannabis 

 8           legalization, currently there's only one 

 9           state that puts a cap on the potency of 

10           marijuana and the THC levels, and that's the 

11           state of Vermont.  

12                  Do you believe that as we debate the 

13           issues surrounding this that we should have a 

14           cap on the potency of marijuana if it is in 

15           fact legalized?  

16                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Yeah, 

17           I -- thank you for the question, but I'm not 

18           going to comment on pending legislation.  We 

19           leave it to you guys.  And if it's signed 

20           into law, we'll enforce it.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay.  Following 

22           up on my colleague's questions related to 

23           trying to determine someone's THC level, you 

24           know, obviously an oral swab, if that is in 


                                                                   479

 1           fact the case that we're going to go down 

 2           that road, how long does that take to get a 

 3           result on that?

 4                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Well, 

 5           there's two things -- well, three.  First, we 

 6           don't have a test that will determine the 

 7           level or concentration of the THC in the 

 8           bloodstream.  It's that two-part test I said:  

 9           Presence and then we have to independently 

10           verify it, right?  

11                  The other thing is that there's two 

12           oral swabs.  One's a roadside test, like a 

13           prescreen device in an alcohol case, you 

14           know, where the Trooper could have a small 

15           handheld thing.  That's been experimented 

16           with.  

17                  And the test I'm referring to is a 

18           forensically valid test.  It would be a test 

19           that would be gathered at the -- either 

20           roadside or at the station and then 

21           transported to the lab, and the test would be 

22           run there.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay.  And do you 

24           know, generally speaking, how long it takes 


                                                                   480

 1           to get a result on that test?

 2                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  I don't.  

 3           I suspect that it depends on the volume in a 

 4           particular time frame.  And that may effect 

 5           how the Trooper proceeded at that point, in 

 6           terms of whether somebody was arrested and 

 7           charged or done something else with.

 8                  But clearly, if the Trooper has taken 

 9           a sample like that, the person was exhibiting 

10           substantial impairment, otherwise they 

11           wouldn't have been asked for a sample.  So 

12           there would be actions that had to be taken 

13           roadside to ensure safety, among other 

14           things. 

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay.  So 

16           generally speaking, they -- at that moment 

17           they would treat it as they would a DWI?  

18                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  They 

19           would treat it as a DWAI.  The test that I'm 

20           talking about is forensically valid, meaning 

21           it's like a blood test.  So it's at that 

22           level of precision.

23                  Now, again, it's not measuring level, 

24           but it's measuring presence.  So it would be 


                                                                   481

 1           something that could -- they would have to 

 2           have sufficient probable cause to charge DWAI 

 3           drugs.  

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay.  Totally 

 5           switching gears, the last legislative session 

 6           this body repealed 50-a of the Civil Rights 

 7           Law.  You're familiar with that?  

 8                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Yes.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay.  This is 

10           more of a comment than a question, because 

11           I'm sure you're probably not going to want to 

12           opine on this.  

13                  But the -- are you aware that under 

14           the rules of the New York State Assembly, 

15           Rule 8, that the members of the State 

16           Assembly exempt themselves specifically from 

17           being subject to FOIL?

18                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  I have 

19           not made a particular study of the rules of 

20           the Assembly, no.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay.  Just so -- 

22           I'm putting this out there for you to be 

23           aware.  You know, obviously there's a clear 

24           hypocrisy between what this body has chosen 


                                                                   482

 1           to do with respect to the officers who serve 

 2           under your command and their personnel files 

 3           and making them subject to FOIL while 

 4           expressly exempting themselves.  

 5                  So I just wanted you to be aware of 

 6           that.  And happy to send you Rule 8 of the 

 7           rules of the New York State Assembly so you 

 8           can see that at some point.

 9                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Thank 

10           you.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay, I have no 

12           further questions.  Thank you, sir.

13                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Thank 

14           you.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

16                  I'm sorry, I'm going to ask you a 

17           question just in follow-up on the marijuana.  

18                  So it's my understanding that New York 

19           State Police can pull you over for appearing 

20           to be driving dangerously right now, they can 

21           give you field sobriety tests, they can take 

22           away your right to drive your car, and they 

23           can do follow-up with chemical tests that may 

24           or may not be available, depending on what 


                                                                   483

 1           you have in your system.  Because obviously 

 2           you could have alcohol in your system, you 

 3           could have marijuana, you could have -- I 

 4           guess I'll say hundreds if not thousands of 

 5           prescription drugs.

 6                  So that's correct, that your police 

 7           have the authority to do that now?

 8                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Yes.  

 9                  I would only say that we don't have 

10           the authority to take away anyone's right to 

11           drive.  But temporarily we would have the 

12           right to take you -- stop you from driving 

13           while we conduct an investigation.

14                  (Zoom interruption.)

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, yes.  

16           I wanted to be clear about that. 

17                  Okay, I think they went back on mute.  

18           Thank you.

19                  Next we have Assemblymember Tannousis.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Thank you.  

21                  Thank you very much.  Thank you, 

22           Superintendent, for being here.

23                  I just wanted to follow up in regards 

24           to Senator O'Mara's questions regarding the 


                                                                   484

 1           possibility of passing the recreational 

 2           marijuana.

 3                  I found myself as a prosecutor a few 

 4           years back prosecuting these cases that I 

 5           found that cases that were solely based on 

 6           the testimony of police officers were 

 7           substantially weaker compared to those cases 

 8           that, for example, driving while intoxicated, 

 9           where an individual -- a portable breath test 

10           was conducted, then they would be taken to an 

11           IDTU room where they blow on an Intoxilyzer.  

12           And we had a whole scientific machine that we 

13           were able to bring forth in court to show 

14           that the person was driving while 

15           intoxicated.  

16                  Are you somewhat concerned that if 

17           recreational marijuana is passed this year, 

18           that the cases that are brought forth by 

19           arrests by your Troopers will not be quite as 

20           strong as those cases of prosecuting driving 

21           while intoxicated?  Because in that case 

22           there is an actual scientific machine, the 

23           defense attorney could attack the machine, he 

24           could talk about procedure -- where in this 


                                                                   485

 1           situation, a State Trooper is testifying 

 2           about his observations, a State Trooper 

 3           without any type of test is basically going 

 4           to be testifying on assumptions.  

 5                  So are you concerned about that?

 6                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Well, 

 7           you're lucky --

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  And -- I'm 

 9           sorry to interrupt you -- just as a follow-up 

10           question, when will that machine be 

11           available, the machine that you were telling 

12           us about?  

13                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  So it's 

14           available now.  We have it.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Ah, okay.  

16           Thank you.  If you could answer the first 

17           part --   

18                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  And 

19           you're lucky you're not here at the academy 

20           calling it a machine, because they would make 

21           you run laps.  It's an instrument.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  God knows I 

23           could use the laps, by the way.  

24                  (Laughter.)


                                                                   486

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Are you 

 2           concerned at all, Superintendent, about that?

 3                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  You 

 4           know, the -- I -- the -- one of the things 

 5           that's going to address it -- first of all, I 

 6           expect New York State Troopers, and it's been 

 7           my experience that they do this, to conduct 

 8           careful investigations and to testify clearly 

 9           and accurately to the point where a jury 

10           would trust what it is they're saying and 

11           the -- let the chips fall where they may.

12                  But it is an artifact of body cameras 

13           that I don't know as anyone's thought about 

14           it clearly, but an activation of a body 

15           camera -- if someone is behaving in such a 

16           way that mirrors what the Trooper saw and is 

17           describing and her body camera footage plays 

18           that back, a juror and juries presumably will 

19           have an even higher degree of reliability 

20           about their testimony.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  But it's not 

22           as strong as an Intoxilyzer, though, correct?

23                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  You 

24           know, I don't -- I disagree with that.  You 


                                                                   487

 1           know, I think the Intoxilyzer and the 

 2           instruments that we have are fantastic.  

 3                  I think that the testimony, properly 

 4           done, the evidence gathered, observations 

 5           from the vehicle, observations from the car, 

 6           things that are recovered from the car, other 

 7           witnesses, can build very strong cases.  

 8                  And quite frankly, this is the 

 9           environment we're at now with DWAI cases.  

10           And, you know, I haven't seen any significant 

11           issues.  I know what you're saying, that 

12           we're not going to end up with a particular 

13           threshold.  But we have the -- if the 

14           legislation is passed, we have the 

15           instrument, we'll have the methods to collect 

16           it, and we'll have the forensically valid 

17           results.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN TANNOUSIS:  Thank you for 

19           your time.

20                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Thank 

21           you, sir.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

23                  Assemblymember Latrice Walker.

24                  Are you there, Latrice?  I don't think 


                                                                   488

 1           so.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  I'm here, but 

 3           of course there's -- we have conference going 

 4           on as well as a number of other things, so I 

 5           apologize for toggling back and forth.  

 6                  But thank you very much for your 

 7           testimony today, Mr. Superintendent.  I have 

 8           a really quick question.

 9                  So there was a budget request for 

10           body-worn cameras for the State Police.  

11           However, the request didn't match I believe 

12           what had been previously stated was the need 

13           for the State Police in order to get that 

14           done.  

15                  And so how much is the request this 

16           year?  And what is the difference between 

17           what you indicated in the past was required 

18           and what is being proposed in this year's 

19           Executive Budget?

20                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Well, 

21           I'm not exactly familiar with the prior 

22           request.  I know we have made requests and 

23           wanted to pilot body cameras particularly in 

24           some of the more extreme environments, in the 


                                                                   489

 1           mountains and other things.  

 2                  But based on the passage of the law in 

 3           June, which had very specific activation 

 4           requirements, we ended up having to get -- 

 5           essentially, only one product met that need.  

 6           So that might account for what you're seeing.  

 7                  It's my understanding that the cost is 

 8           roughly about $8 million a year.

 9                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  Okay.  All 

10           right, no problem.  

11                  So what we did see was a request in 

12           the past for about $15 million, but it looks 

13           like there's about $7 million in this year's 

14           budget.

15                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Yeah, 

16           and these are recurring costs, yeah.  

17                  Again, because the law was passed with 

18           very specific requirements, there was really 

19           only one product on the market that would 

20           meet the needs.  And that then dictated kind 

21           of everything else from there.

22                  That comes with -- you know, it meets 

23           our needs and it meets the requirements of 

24           the statute in terms of activation, signal 


                                                                   490

 1           activation.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  Okay.  All 

 3           right.  Well, just wanted to -- so you're 

 4           saying it's only going to cost you $8 million 

 5           in order to fully implement state body-worn 

 6           cameras for this year -- and my face is 

 7           moving on the Jeopardy --

 8                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  That's 

 9           all right.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  -- the 

11           Hollywood Squares board.

12                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Yup, 

13           that's my understanding of the costs of 

14           cameras.  There are additional costs for 

15           personnel and other things, but that is the 

16           cost of cameras.

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  So there is an 

18           additional cost.  But is that being taken 

19           into account for -- with respect to the 

20           budget request that you've put in?

21                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Yes.

22                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER:  Okay.  All 

23           right, awesome.  Thank you.

24                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Thank 


                                                                   491

 1           you.  

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 3                  I see we've been joined by the chair 

 4           of Government Ops, Ken Zebrowski.  And it's 

 5           been a busy day for everyone.  

 6                  Please give him 10 minutes on the 

 7           clock, thank you.  

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Thanks, 

 9           Chair Krueger, and I won't need the 

10           10 minutes.

11                  Let me just say, Superintendent, thank 

12           you and please thank your officers for all 

13           the work that they have been doing during 

14           these difficult times.  I know they're out on 

15           the roads, they're in our communities.  

16           When -- you know, when this pandemic started, 

17           by no means did their jobs stop.  They had to 

18           figure things out at times where we had 

19           absolutely no idea how this was being 

20           transmitted, where it was being transmitted.  

21           They had to do their jobs.  

22                  So, you know, will you please express 

23           our gratitude for all their hard work and 

24           what they do in protecting us every day.


                                                                   492

 1                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  I will.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  I just wanted 

 3           to reiterate a little bit on the body cam 

 4           question.  And my understanding is that it's 

 5           a multiyear request.  Certainly I believe 

 6           we're funding one year, this year, of 

 7           $8 million.  But I believe it was a five-year 

 8           request or estimate of about 8 million a year 

 9           for five years, which is a significant amount 

10           of money.

11                  So my understanding is that that would 

12           cover the total cost for not just, I think, 

13           the 3,000 or so cameras now but, you know, 

14           all the logistical and other hardware, 

15           software things that go through it for the 

16           next period.  Is that your understanding?  

17                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Yeah, 

18           that is my understanding.  That is my -- all 

19           the products associated with the camera and 

20           support with the camera.

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN ZEBROWSKI:  Okay.  All 

22           right.  We appreciate that.  

23                  And, you know, certainly I'd love to 

24           keep in touch with you for both, you know, 


                                                                   493

 1           the rollout of this program as to how you 

 2           think it's going, you know, is there 

 3           sufficient funding, does it provide your 

 4           officers with the proper support, you know, 

 5           so that they can do their job and, you know, 

 6           further on, obviously, with a host of other 

 7           issues.  Just wanted to say that, you know, 

 8           we're there for you for continued 

 9           collaboration going forward.  So thank you.

10                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Thank 

11           you.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay, thank you.  

13           And Assemblymember Mike Reilly.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Thank you, 

15           Madam Chair.  

16                  Thank you, Superintendent, for your 

17           testimony.

18                  A couple of things I wanted to ask 

19           about was I know you mentioned the ARIDE 

20           training.  New York City Police Department is 

21           doing an offshoot of the DRE program, which 

22           is like a four-hour class.  Do you think 

23           there's a possibility of the ARIDE training 

24           being administered to local police 


                                                                   494

 1           departments throughout the state to help with 

 2           the legalization of marijuana if it moves 

 3           forward?  Because I know the DRE program is 

 4           expensive.  And, you know, many times it 

 5           takes the patrol officers away from their 

 6           duties for some time because of the extent of 

 7           the training.  

 8                  Could you tell me how much that 

 9           training is, the DRE program, and if it's 

10           feasible for ARIDE?  

11                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Well, 

12           the ARIDE program -- in order to be qualified 

13           for the DRE program, you have to be an ARIDE.  

14           And as I said before in testimony, that every 

15           new New York State Trooper is qualified as an 

16           ARIDE as they come through the academy.  And 

17           by the end of the year we'll have the entire 

18           road Trooper force trained as ARIDEs.  

19                  DREs are akin to, as you know, you 

20           know, a test.  It's a very extensive 

21           training, medically based and all the rest of 

22           it.  There is only so much bandwidth that -- 

23           there's only so much bandwidth at the 

24           training academies that will do this.  At one 


                                                                   495

 1           point there were only two.  I think there's 

 2           plans that they'll add two more online.  But 

 3           there's only so many slots.  I think New York 

 4           City has about -- between 12 and 16.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Yeah, 16.

 6                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  And I 

 7           have about 110.  My goal is -- and it will 

 8           take time -- is to make that number, that 

 9           fixed number of DREs closer to 200.  

10                  But we have, you know, resources and 

11           ways of dealing with the issue up-front.  And 

12           I'm certain that other departments will be -- 

13           and other agencies will be looking at ARIDE 

14           training.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Thank you, 

16           Superintendent.  

17                  So I also wanted to touch on fentanyl 

18           analogs.  I know that we have some 

19           legislation that's in to allow the Department 

20           of Health commissioner to add any necessary 

21           analogs.  Do you think that would help with 

22           investigations?  

23                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  You 

24           know, I don't comment on pending legislation, 


                                                                   496

 1           but fentanyl is extremely serious and 

 2           extremely dangerous.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  And I wanted to 

 4           touch on one last thing about the -- I know 

 5           my colleague earlier mentioned ghost guns.  

 6                  When that legislation came up, I 

 7           raised one issue, that unfortunately the 

 8           possession of a ghost gun right now would be 

 9           an E felony.  And, you know -- as you know, 

10           if you have a firearm with an untraceable 

11           serial number, it's a D felony.

12                  Do you think that it would help with 

13           investigations if it was a D felony for a 

14           ghost gun?  Because as we know, as an 

15           E felony, with bail reform it currently is 

16           eligible for a desk appearance ticket.

17                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Well, I 

18           hate to repeat myself and say I'm not going 

19           to comment on pending legislation, but I'm 

20           going to do that.

21                  I am going to say the ghost gun 

22           situation has me concerned.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN REILLY:  Thank you, 

24           Mr. Superintendent.  I appreciate it.  


                                                                   497

 1                  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, Mike.  

 3                  I think our last Assemblymember, or 

 4           the last hand I see up, is Chris Burdick.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you, I 

 6           appreciate it.  

 7                  And thank you for the testimony.  And 

 8           I also echo the words of Ken Zebrowski to 

 9           thank you and your officers for the heroic 

10           work that you've done during the pandemic.  

11           We greatly appreciate it.

12                  There's been a great deal of 

13           discussion in this line of questioning 

14           regarding enforcement issues in the event of 

15           the possible legalization of recreational 

16           marijuana.  I echo the concern on training 

17           for local police departments and do hope that 

18           there can be coordination in that regard.  I 

19           think that would be very helpful.  

20                  I had a question regarding if you 

21           happen to know whether any of the funds that 

22           would be raised from this, in taxes and fees, 

23           would be going to any kind of drug 

24           prevention, drug abuse prevention programs?  


                                                                   498

 1           It may not be your wheelhouse, and I can 

 2           check elsewhere.

 3                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  It is 

 4           not my wheelhouse.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Okay.  A 

 6           different question is the question regarding 

 7           enforcement.  

 8                  Have you folks looked at what's going 

 9           on in other states with respect to whether or 

10           not the measures that they use, the 

11           instrumentation that you described, have been 

12           effective in getting dangerous drivers off 

13           the road?  Do you feel confident that you're 

14           going to be able to do that effectively?.

15                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  We've 

16           looked at data from other states on a wide 

17           range of issues about legalization.  I have 

18           contacted and had conversations with my 

19           opposite numbers in other states.  

20                  And I keep going back to the fact that 

21           we do this already, we do this job already.  

22           We make arrests for impaired operation based 

23           on the use and THC intoxication.  We do it.  

24           And I feel like I have every confidence in my 


                                                                   499

 1           Troopers that they'll be able to do this.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  That's very 

 3           helpful to know, and reassuring.

 4                  Thank you very much.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 6                  So it is my wheelhouse, since I am the 

 7           lead sponsor of the MRTA bill in the Senate 

 8           that Crystal Peoples-Stokes carries in the 

 9           Assembly.  

10                  And so the answer is that in our bill 

11           we hope that up to 25 percent of the revenues 

12           from legalized adult recreational use of 

13           marijuana would go towards drug treatment for 

14           serious, dangerous drug addictions and 

15           education to discourage people, particularly 

16           young people, from using drugs.  Chris, so 

17           that's the answer to that.

18                  I also want to thank the acting 

19           superintendent.  I am very confident his 

20           State Troopers are perfectly capable of 

21           handling impaired driver stops, because as he 

22           just said, they do it every day.  

23                  You know, there's a lot of things 

24           people can have opinions about with 


                                                                   500

 1           marijuana, but the one we really need to 

 2           agree on, it's already here.  It may not be 

 3           legal, but it's already here and being used 

 4           more than pretty much any other drug in the 

 5           State of New York, so many of these questions 

 6           aren't really new questions.

 7                  I do have one final question for you, 

 8           Superintendent.  So in the last year, the 

 9           pandemic has changed almost everything in our 

10           lives.  What are the State Police doing in my 

11           city nowadays?  What do you have them doing?  

12                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  In 

13           New York City?

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yes, sir, I'm 

15           from New York City.

16                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  We 

17           provide a number of roles and do a number of 

18           missions in New York City -- our presence, 

19           obviously, at the transportation hubs, the 

20           train stations, the bridges and tunnels.  We 

21           are also at the airports.  

22                  We have investigators that follow -- 

23           that are on the Hate Crimes Task Force in the 

24           city.  We have investigators assigned to the 


                                                                   501

 1           Joint Terrorism Task Force and investigators 

 2           that work closely with the Drug Enforcement 

 3           Agency on very large narcotics cases, just to 

 4           name a few of the missions.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And so you still 

 6           believe that the number of State Troopers 

 7           assigned to New York City is a justified use 

 8           of your budget costs?

 9                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  

10           Absolutely.  It gives us flexibility to do 

11           things, act in certain missions that are 

12           specific, and flexibility to act.  I feel it 

13           is justified.

14                  I have to tell you also it has been a 

15           particular benefit with recruiting minority 

16           members.  The folks in the city are able to 

17           see the Troopers doing their work in the 

18           great uniform, looking great, and they can 

19           picture themselves doing the job.  And it's 

20           been a true benefit to us.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  That's very good 

22           news.

23                  On behalf of us all, thank you for 

24           your work, thank you for your members' work.  


                                                                   502

 1           And we are going to excuse you for the day.

 2                  ACTING SUPERINTENDENT BRUEN:  Thank 

 3           you.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 5                  And because it is now 6:10 and we 

 6           started at 9:30 this morning, I am allowing 

 7           myself a three-minute nature visit.  And 

 8           everybody should just either also explore 

 9           nature for three minutes, or whatever you 

10           like.  Just don't go anywhere, because it's a 

11           very fast three minutes.  Thank you.

12                  (A brief recess was taken from 6:11 to 

13           6:14 p.m.)

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  We are now 

15           starting the part of the hearing where people 

16           who have asked to testify will be called up 

17           in panels.  You'll have three minutes, each 

18           person on the panel.  Then people who want to 

19           ask you questions, whether they are chairs or 

20           not, only get three minutes in total to ask 

21           the panel questions and get answers. 

22                  So I like to describe this part as 

23           speed dating.  But it's also important to 

24           know that when you hear a question from a 


                                                                   503

 1           legislator, you know you want to follow up 

 2           with them afterwards because you know you 

 3           have more information for them than you can 

 4           possibly give them in this ridiculously short 

 5           period of time.

 6                  For people who did not get to sign up 

 7           to testify because they asked too late and 

 8           there were no more slots left -- and I 

 9           apologize, we had to turn a lot of people 

10           down -- you can still submit your testimony, 

11           it will still go to all of us, it will still 

12           be up for the public to view.

13                  And I always advise the testifiers, if 

14           you think you're going to read your 

15           testimony, that will be a mistake.  You only 

16           have three minutes.  You want to highlight 

17           the most important part of your testimony as 

18           far as what you're prioritizing in 

19           relationship to the state budget this year.

20                  The one thing I can say with 

21           confidence is we are all readers.  All the 

22           legislators actually can read, and so we have 

23           full testimony in front of us or on our desks 

24           or in our computers or all of the above.


                                                                   504

 1                  So having said that as the rules of 

 2           the road for the rest of this hearing, I'll 

 3           now introduce our first three panelists.  And 

 4           they will do it perfectly, and then everybody 

 5           will know what I was talking about.

 6                  So we have Kristin Brown, from the 

 7           Empire Justice Center; we have Laura Abel, 

 8           from the Lawyers Alliance for New York; and 

 9           we have the New York Legal Services 

10           Coalition, Molly Clifford.

11                  Hello, good evening.  Kristin, you get 

12           to go first.

13                  MS. BROWN:  Thank you.  Thank you so 

14           much.

15                  Good evening, my name is Kristin 

16           Brown.  I'm the president and CEO of Empire 

17           Justice Center.  We're a statewide legal 

18           services and advocacy organization for 

19           low-income New Yorkers outside of New York 

20           City.

21                  For my time today I'm going to 

22           highlight two trends and focus on the 

23           importance of your continued support for 

24           allocation of the Legal Services Assistance 


                                                                   505

 1           Fund.

 2                  We can all agree that COVID has really 

 3           revealed deep structural inequities in our 

 4           society and made existing problems more acute 

 5           and complex for people in low-income 

 6           communities.  In the area of legal services, 

 7           we find problems such as unemployment, 

 8           eviction, lack of benefits, intimate partner 

 9           violence, and removal proceedings that may 

10           have been navigated separately through 

11           different attorneys and organizations, are 

12           now melded by the pandemic into a single 

13           landscape, often with an attorney as the main 

14           person who's triaging services and providing 

15           advice in a number of different areas.  And 

16           this is a shift that we have had to navigate 

17           to meet the needs of our clients.

18                  A second noticeable trend is the 

19           digital divide.  Reliance on technology has 

20           created very deep disparities between people 

21           who have tech skills and resources and those 

22           who don't.  For example, during nursing home 

23           fair hearings and foreclosure proceedings, 

24           our clients often lack computers, technical 


                                                                   506

 1           skills and reliable internet access to take 

 2           advantage of virtual hearings.

 3                  For Empire Justice attorneys, the 

 4           pandemic has made it harder to collect 

 5           evidentiary proof, maintain attorney-client 

 6           privilege in the virtual setting, and have 

 7           sidebar negotiations.

 8                  A Chief Judge's permanent commission 

 9           is studying how to -- examining the digital 

10           divide, and this is something we urge the 

11           Legislature to look at.

12                  These trends are just part of the 

13           urgent need to fund civil legal services to 

14           help low-income communities cope with the 

15           pandemic and navigate structural 

16           complexities.  For Empire Justice, the JCLS 

17           and Legal Services Assistance Fund money 

18           allows us to provide representation to 

19           immigrants, individuals who are unemployed, 

20           and families with special-needs students, 

21           among others, and to provide training and 

22           technical assistance for students as well as 

23           frequently answer questions for folks.  We've 

24           had over 9,000 people access our Unemployment 


                                                                   507

 1           Frequently Asked Questions.

 2                  To support this work, we urge you to 

 3           support the Legal Services Assistance Fund, 

 4           including domestic violence legal services at 

 5           last year's levels.

 6                  I also want to highlight that in spite 

 7           of your much-appreciated support last year, 

 8           none of the LSAF or domestic violence funding 

 9           for the current year, which goes to provide 

10           services all across the state, has been paid 

11           to providers.  Nothing.

12                  We understand this is a very 

13           challenging time for most people, and there's 

14           a budget deficit.  But the LSAF funds have 

15           their own revenue source, they don't come out 

16           of the General Fund, and they do play a 

17           crucial role in providing -- pursuing life's 

18           basic necessities for low-income New Yorkers.

19                  So we look forward to working with you 

20           all to make sure that this crucial funding is 

21           available for both this year's LSAF and the 

22           one to come.

23                  Thank you for your time.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.


                                                                   508

 1                  Next, Laura Abel.

 2                  MS. ABEL:  Thank you.  Thank you for 

 3           this time.  And I will be brief.

 4                  I'm Laura Abel.  I'm senior policy 

 5           counsel with Lawyers Alliance for New York.  

 6           We are a nonprofit law office that provides 

 7           business and transactional legal assistance 

 8           to the nonprofits that serve low-income 

 9           communities in New York City.  

10                  Last year, in the last days of budget 

11           negotiations as the pandemic was closing 

12           everything down, an unfunded administrative 

13           burden on thousands of charities was inserted 

14           into the Public Protection and Good 

15           Government Article VII bill.  The apparent 

16           goal of that provision was to track the flow 

17           of resources from 501(c)(3) public charities 

18           to 501(c)(4) social welfare organizations 

19           that engage in a lot of lobbying or in 

20           certain types of issue advocacy.  

21                  But perhaps unintentionally, the bill 

22           swept way, way too broadly.  As a result, 

23           thousands of charities that have nothing to 

24           do with social welfare organizations have a 


                                                                   509

 1           new, completely unnecessary bureaucratic 

 2           hurdle this year.  They have to take the 

 3           annual financial reports that they already 

 4           file with the Charities Bureau and file them 

 5           again with the Department of State.  They 

 6           have to pay a second filing fee and deal with 

 7           the Department of State's different and 

 8           earlier filing deadline.  But perhaps most 

 9           importantly, they have to worry about a 

10           potential threat to the privacy of their 

11           major donors.  

12                  The Charities Bureau has decades of 

13           experience and careful procedures in place to 

14           protect the privacy of people who contribute 

15           to these purely nonpolitical charitable 

16           organizations.  The Department of State 

17           doesn't.

18                  This year's one-house bills should fix 

19           last year's overstepping, they should eliminate 

20           the dual filing requirement, they should 

21           implement measures to protect privacy.  In my 

22           written testimony I've pointed you to an 

23           Assembly bill that has language that could fit 

24           very easily in the one-house bills.  


                                                                   510

 1                  Thank you.  

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 3                  And Molly.

 4                  MS. CLIFFORD:  Thank you.  

 5                  I'm Molly Clifford, and I'm the 

 6           interim executive director of the New York 

 7           Legal Services Coalition.  We're a nonprofit 

 8           consisting of 49 civil legal services 

 9           providers.  Collectively we serve every 

10           New York State county and provide 

11           high-quality legal services to hundreds of 

12           thousands of low-income families in New York 

13           every year.

14                  Civil legal services address a 

15           fundamental gap in access to justice:  The 

16           gap between low- and moderate-income 

17           households in need of legal aid and the 

18           number who can be helped by our providers.  

19           For decades that gap remained at a troubling 

20           80 percent.  Thanks to ongoing support from 

21           the Legislature, state agencies and the 

22           Judiciary, CLS providers in New York have 

23           narrowed that chasm to approximately 

24           60 percent.  


                                                                   511

 1                  While this is a positive trend, there 

 2           are certainly significant needs that remain, 

 3           made worse by the pandemic, particularly 

 4           among low-income New Yorkers and communities 

 5           of color.  

 6                  At the coronavirus peak, our network 

 7           effectively pivoted their workforces to meet 

 8           heightened demand to ensure New York's 

 9           families hit disproportionately hard by the 

10           pandemic have a sense of stability during 

11           this time of crisis.  Amidst these staffing 

12           demands, staff continues to work within our 

13           many practice areas, including domestic 

14           violence, eviction, foreclosure and 

15           immigration matters.  

16                  Some matters, especially economic and 

17           housing stability, are being exacerbated by 

18           the pandemic and will affect families 

19           throughout 2021 and beyond.  We're 

20           particularly concerned about the eviction and 

21           foreclosure moratoria, which upon expiration 

22           will bring a tidal wave of evictions and 

23           result in sharp increases in homelessness in 

24           the communities we serve.  


                                                                   512

 1                  We stand ready to meet these new and 

 2           shifting demands, and appreciate the joint 

 3           efforts of the Legislature and OCA to support 

 4           legal services funding.  We respectfully ask 

 5           for continued state support in two key areas:  

 6           Restore and increase funding for civil legal 

 7           services through the Legal Services 

 8           Assistance Fund, and restore 10 percent for 

 9           civil legal services programs in the 

10           Judiciary Budget, including $85 million to 

11           help bridge the gap and continuing the 

12           15 million supplemental appropriation for the 

13           IOLA to fund its grantees.

14                  The JCLS program is by far the largest 

15           source of support for our members.  On 

16           average, our members' budgets consist of over 

17           50 percent in state funding, and JCLS 

18           comprises nearly half of that amount.  It is 

19           especially important because it gives our 

20           providers the flexibility to allocate funds 

21           to the most substantive needs in their own 

22           communities.

23                  The JCLS program has been reduced by 

24           10 percent, and we caution that the resulting 


                                                                   513

 1           cuts will be borne by our most underserved 

 2           and marginalized communities.  We appreciate 

 3           that local assistance reductions are being 

 4           reduced to 5 percent under the Governor's 

 5           budget.  Should sufficient federal funding be 

 6           realized, we urge that these amounts and 

 7           Judiciary funding be restored in full.  

 8                  Thank you very much.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

10           much.

11                  Any questions?  I don't see any hands 

12           up.

13                  We're going to move quickly, so if you 

14           don't put your hand up -- nope?  All right.  

15           Thank you very much, ladies.  Appreciate your 

16           being with us tonight.  Thank you.  

17                  Next panel:  New York State Health 

18           Foundation; Veterans Advocacy Project; Center 

19           for Court Innovation; Fund for Modern Courts; 

20           and the New York State Coalition Against 

21           Domestic Violence.  Sometimes I was 

22           stretching a little when combining into 

23           panels, but I did my best to be thematic.

24                  David Sandman, from New York State 


                                                                   514

 1           Health Foundation.  Nope, you're on mute.  

 2           See if you can get your mute off.  There we 

 3           go.  All right -- 

 4                  DR. SANDMAN:  Thank you, Madam Chair, 

 5           for the Zoom advice.  Thanks for the 

 6           opportunity to testify before this hearing.  

 7                  I'm Dr. David Sandman, the president 

 8           and CEO of the New York State Health 

 9           Foundation, and I am here today to speak on 

10           behalf of creating universal access to 

11           veterans treatment courts, or VTCs, for every 

12           veteran in New York who needs one.  And a 

13           simple transfer policy that is proposed in 

14           the Executive Budget would make universal 

15           access a reality.

16                  VTCs provide an alternative to 

17           incarceration for veterans who encounter the 

18           criminal justice system and who have a mental 

19           health and/or substance use issue.  They 

20           provide treatment and services instead of 

21           jail.  And I've provided details in my 

22           written testimony about the history and 

23           benefits of VTCs and why a transfer policy is 

24           needed.  


                                                                   515

 1                  I'll use my brief time today to tell 

 2           you about a veteran whose name is Nick.  He 

 3           comes from Western New York.  Nick is a 

 4           Marine sergeant who joined the military after 

 5           the 9/11 attacks.  He did two difficult 

 6           combat tours in Afghanistan, and when he came 

 7           home he felt isolated, had a hard time 

 8           readjusting.  He was drinking heavily, became 

 9           addicted to drugs.  He ended up homeless, 

10           living in his car in a Walmart parking lot.  

11           And when he was found, he was arrested for 

12           narcotics possession.  

13                  Nick was not a danger to anyone 

14           besides himself.  He didn't need jail, he 

15           needed treatment.  And Nick's mom had heard 

16           about the Monroe County Veterans Treatment 

17           Court.  

18                  As Nick puts it, the judge was the 

19           first authority figure he'd ever encountered 

20           since leaving the military who showed him 

21           respect.  She thanked him for his service, 

22           she helped him to get out of jail, got him 

23           into treatment, and Nick says that it saved 

24           his life.  


                                                                   516

 1                  He graduated from the VTC, and today 

 2           Nick is thriving, has a family, completed his 

 3           education, and himself works in government 

 4           service now.

 5                  The evidence is clear:  VTCs work.  

 6           Research shows that they are associated with 

 7           lower rates of recidivism, they have positive 

 8           impacts on alcohol and drug use, mental 

 9           health, housing stability, employment and 

10           interpersonal relationships.  

11                  There's lots of vets like Nick out 

12           there.  Not all their stories are successful 

13           because, depending on where you live, you 

14           might not have access to a VTC.  Only about 

15           half of the state's counties have one.  And 

16           the transfer policy proposal proposed in the 

17           budget will fix this.  It will allow a case 

18           to be moved from a county without a VTC to a 

19           neighboring county with one.

20                  It's simple, effective, it means the 

21           vets won't languish in a justice system 

22           that's not equipped to deal with their 

23           challenges.  It's a point of pride -- the 

24           first VTC in the nation was started about a 


                                                                   517

 1           decade ago, in Buffalo, New York.  As their 

 2           birthplace, it's only right that we should 

 3           have the largest and best system in the 

 4           nation.  And a transfer policy will allow 

 5           New York to become the national beacon and 

 6           remain the beacon for Veterans Treatment 

 7           Courts.  

 8                  Thank you.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

10           much, Doctor.

11                  Next, Veterans Advocacy Project, Coco 

12           Culhane.

13                  MS. CULHANE:  Hi.  Thank you.  

14                  I'm executive director of Veteran 

15           Advocacy Project.  And David's a tough act to 

16           follow.  I want to echo everything he has 

17           said.  And I was thrilled today to hear how 

18           much support there is for Veteran Treatment 

19           Courts.  

20                  And, you know, if there's a theme to 

21           my testimony here, it would be to leave no 

22           one behind.  You know, one person is not more 

23           worthy of redemption or recovery because of 

24           the county they live in.  So a transfer 


                                                                   518

 1           policy is an easy way to increase access to 

 2           justice.

 3                  My organization specializes in working 

 4           with veterans with less-than-honorable 

 5           discharges.  And I just wanted to also say 

 6           that the support services for these courts -- 

 7           the peer mentors, all of the different 

 8           components that come together -- are so 

 9           important because there's a very high ratio 

10           of veterans with less-than-honorable 

11           discharges in Veterans Treatment Court, and 

12           they can't access the VA.  

13                  So we're talking about a population 

14           that is extremely vulnerable.  Often they 

15           have been discharged less than honorably due 

16           to symptoms of posttraumatic stress or 

17           traumatic brain injury, such as 

18           self-medication, getting into fights, things 

19           like that.  And when they get out, they're 

20           seen as having a criminal record and they -- 

21           you know, having a less-than-honorable 

22           discharge is the second-highest predictor of 

23           homelessness.  If you've been discharged for 

24           misconduct you are almost three times as 


                                                                   519

 1           likely to die by suicide than other veterans, 

 2           which is already at way too high of a rate.  

 3                  So we're talking about a really 

 4           vulnerable population that's essentially been 

 5           failed by the military justice system and is 

 6           now entering the civilian one.  And Veteran 

 7           Treatment Courts are so important and so 

 8           vital.  

 9                  My organization works with several.  

10           We're so lucky in New York City to have I 

11           think six or seven courts now.  The thing is, 

12           we can -- it's easy to forget -- we have so 

13           many resources in the city it's easy to 

14           forget that veterans around the state really 

15           don't have those options.  

16                  And in particular, you know, even in 

17           New York City, these veterans can't work with 

18           the VJOs, the veterans justice outreach 

19           social workers who are such a vital piece of 

20           connecting these veterans to treatment.

21                  So again, just -- that's why these 

22           support services, all of the different 

23           players that come together to make Veteran 

24           Treatment Courts what they are, are so 


                                                                   520

 1           important.  And I hope that the Legislature 

 2           will support those programs that are working 

 3           with all the veterans, because everybody does 

 4           deserve that second chance.

 5                  Thanks.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 7           much.

 8                  Next, the Center for Court Innovation.

 9                  MR. CORREIA:  Good evening.  My name 

10           is Shane Correia, and I work at the Center 

11           for Court Innovation.

12                  Based on the amount of time, I'll dive 

13           right into the areas that our upstate and 

14           downstate programs and research seem 

15           well-suited to contribute to public discourse 

16           on.

17                  In the first topic, reducing 

18           unnecessary incarceration, last week we 

19           released a fact sheet on the impact of bail 

20           reform in New York State, exploring popular 

21           opinions, what the data says, and what we 

22           know from operating pretrial diversion 

23           programs.  We hope that this will be useful 

24           in exploring the issue through facts.


                                                                   521

 1                  For example, in response to attempts 

 2           to tie gun violence to bail reform, we 

 3           provide an analysis that shows that of the 

 4           528 shootings through June 20th in New York, 

 5           only one was released due to bail reform.  

 6                  The second topic is the shrinking 

 7           footprint of police.  During the summer calls 

 8           for police reform, we released a document 

 9           spanning six areas of practice we operate 

10           programs in that can help shrink the 

11           footprint of police.  

12                  As an example, we suggest supporting 

13           families when they appear in other parts of 

14           the justice system.  In our Strong Starts 

15           program that supports children under three in 

16           child neglect cases with a clinical 

17           coordinator, we have data that shows that 

18           50 percent of those parents were previously 

19           the subject child of a prior neglect 

20           proceeding with their own caregiver.

21                  The goal of me sharing this example of 

22           shrinking the footprint of police is because 

23           it seems slightly off-center for police 

24           responses, and yet a criminal arrest can 


                                                                   522

 1           trigger a child neglect proceeding and have 

 2           intergenerational impacts if not sufficiently 

 3           addressed.  Meaningfully helping them at this 

 4           point of their needs can have a profound 

 5           long-term impact.

 6                  The third topic is housing as a 

 7           justice issue.  Many New Yorkers are 

 8           anticipating a crush of Housing Court cases 

 9           when current protections end.  It's important 

10           to understand the spectrum of effective 

11           models for protecting tenants.  

12                  Models such as housing resource 

13           centers can help residents stay in their 

14           homes for issues like avoiding default 

15           judgements for non-appearance or lapsed 

16           annual certification for public housing.  

17           These are both issues that require legal 

18           information, not necessarily legal 

19           representation to keep New Yorkers housed.

20                  Finally, on the topic of anti-gun 

21           violence, we want to add research to the 

22           calls for increased access to gun violence 

23           prevention programs.  Over the summer we 

24           released a report entitled "Gotta Make Your 


                                                                   523

 1           Own Heaven," where we utilized participatory 

 2           research with credible individuals within the 

 3           communities we serve to examine why youth are 

 4           carrying guns.

 5                  One finding is that a lack of safety 

 6           from other youth and police are motivating 

 7           gun possession.  

 8                  We hope that the state can continue to 

 9           support programs like ours that are asked to 

10           create a sense of safety in environments that 

11           are more expansive than the funded catchment 

12           areas that we operate in.

13                  Thank you for giving me the 

14           opportunity to sprint through this overview 

15           of how we believe our research and 

16           programming can help to continue the sense of 

17           public safety and trust in New York.  

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

19           much.

20                  Our next is Fund for Modern Courts.

21                  MR. SILVERMAN:  Good evening, and 

22           thank you.  My name is Bill Silverman.  I am 

23           the chair of the Fund for Modern Courts.  I'm 

24           also a partner at Proskauer, where I have the 


                                                                   524

 1           privilege of running their pro bono program.  

 2                  Modern Courts is an independent, 

 3           nonpartisan, statewide court reform 

 4           organization.  And I'd like to emphasize two 

 5           main points tonight.  

 6                  First, the 10 percent spending cuts 

 7           that have been imposed on the court system 

 8           have in fact affected access to justice.  We 

 9           are seeing significant cuts in staffing based 

10           on the hiring freeze.  We're seeing cuts to 

11           legal services organizations at a time when 

12           the need is getting much worse, much greater.  

13           And we're seeing, obviously, the separation 

14           of the 46 senior judges.  

15                  Those cuts could not have come at a 

16           worse time, at a time when COVID-19 is 

17           affecting the most vulnerable among us.  

18           Those cuts are occurring at a time when the 

19           court system is already underresourced.  As 

20           we all know, in 2011 the court endured a 

21           multi-million-dollar -- $170 million in cuts.  

22                  Given the growing backlog of cases, 

23           the central role that the courts play in 

24           access to justice, we believe that the budget 


                                                                   525

 1           should be approved, and we'd also like to see 

 2           the 10 percent cuts restored at some point.  

 3                  I want to briefly address the issue of 

 4           backlogs, because I think it raises a 

 5           question of fairness and equity during COVID.  

 6           We're not seeing massive backlogs in the 

 7           Supreme Court, where people are generally 

 8           represented and where proceedings are 

 9           virtual.  We're seeing backlogs in the 

10           Family Court.  We're seeing backlogs in the 

11           Housing Court.  These are courts that serve 

12           poor people.  

13                  The backlogs are affecting people of 

14           limited means.  They're affecting people of 

15           color.  And they're affecting them 

16           disproportionately during a time of crisis, 

17           and that's unacceptable.

18                  So this leads me to the second point 

19           that I want to make today, which is that we 

20           need to restructure the court system.  Having 

21           11 separate and distinct trial courts in the 

22           best of times is completely inefficient.  

23           Having them now, during a time of crisis, 

24           makes it very difficult for the court system 


                                                                   526

 1           to consolidate resources.  It makes it 

 2           difficult for them to reassign judges.  It 

 3           makes it difficult for them to get resources 

 4           to the courts that are serving people of 

 5           limited means.

 6                  Pre-COVID I think we were making 

 7           progress, and I urge the Legislature to take 

 8           up court simplification at the earliest 

 9           possible time.  

10                  I want to thank you for this 

11           opportunity.  I also want to thank the 

12           elected officials, the people who also are 

13           testifying, and all the staff for your public 

14           service.  Thank you.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

16           much.

17                  And then the New York State Coalition 

18           Against Domestic Violence, John {sic} 

19           Gerhardt.

20                  MS. GERHARDT:  Thank you for the 

21           opportunity to speak today.  I'm Joan 

22           Gerhardt, the director of public policy --

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  (Inaudible.)

24                  MS. GERHARDT:  That's okay.


                                                                   527

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I called you John 

 2           by mistake, I apologize.

 3                  MS. GERHARDT:  That's okay (laughing).

 4                  I'm Joan Gerhardt, the director of 

 5           public policy and advocacy at the New York 

 6           State Coalition Against Domestic Violence.  

 7           NYSCADV was established nearly 45 years ago, 

 8           and we represent about 100 programs serving 

 9           thousands of domestic violence survivors and 

10           their children across the state.

11                  Rather than review our specific budget 

12           priorities, which are described in detail in 

13           our written testimony, I'd like to use my 

14           time today to give you a sense for domestic 

15           violence in New York State and the challenges 

16           presented to domestic violence survivors and 

17           service providers, both before the pandemic 

18           and now.

19                  New York consistently has the highest 

20           demand for domestic violence services in the 

21           country, despite some states being more 

22           populated.  And as has been widely reported, 

23           this demand has significantly increased 

24           during the pandemic.  Thousands of adults and 


                                                                   528

 1           children are in need of domestic violence 

 2           services in New York each day.  More 

 3           troubling, thousands of requests can't be met 

 4           because of declining or stagnant funding.

 5                  Since last March, in order to meet the 

 6           rising demand and do it safely, domestic 

 7           violence programs have spent thousands of 

 8           dollars on unbudgeted items like PPE, 

 9           cleaning supplies, noncommunal food service, 

10           and new technologies.

11                  New York's domestic violence advocates 

12           have acted heroically, staffing shelters at 

13           their own personal risk, learning to provide 

14           services to survivors in new ways that still 

15           enhance safety -- even providing crisis and 

16           trauma counseling to survivors from their own 

17           homes.

18                  And yet at the same time, domestic 

19           violence programs are getting less funding.  

20           That's because New York's antiquated per diem 

21           reimbursement system only reimburses programs 

22           when survivors are in shelter.  During the 

23           pandemic, many survivors haven't chosen to 

24           enter shelter.  Plus many shelter beds can't 


                                                                   529

 1           be used due to social distancing and 

 2           quarantine requirements.  

 3                  Add on to that the 20 percent 

 4           reduction in county contracts with local 

 5           providers, and you have a perfect storm.  

 6           It's not an exaggeration to say that 

 7           New York's domestic violence programs are 

 8           barely getting by.  They're using financial 

 9           reserves, opening lines of credit, reducing 

10           staff, just to keep the doors open and the 

11           lights on.  

12                  Domestic violence programs reported to 

13           us in November that their shelter occupancy 

14           decreased as much as 30, 40, even 55 percent.  

15           That means that the revenues New York 

16           provides to programs decreased in kind.  We 

17           estimate these losses to the statewide system 

18           to total approximately $1 million a month.  

19           That's 10 million since the pandemic began.  

20           Obviously this isn't sustainable for long.  

21                  We urge the Legislature to make 

22           emergency funding available to those domestic 

23           violence programs that can demonstrate 

24           documented losses.  The state must ensure 


                                                                   530

 1           domestic violence services remain available 

 2           and accessible to all who need them.

 3                  Thank you.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  I 

 5           really shouldn't eat my food at the same 

 6           time.  Sorry.  

 7                  Are there questions for anyone on the 

 8           panel?

 9                  I have one for the domestic violence.  

10           So the state's rules in your contracts are 

11           the bed has to be filled in order for you to 

12           be reimbursed.  So how would you -- what 

13           would you suggest we change so that the state 

14           was paying you but paying you for empty beds?  

15           That's a challenge for us.

16                  MS. GERHARDT:  Well, it shouldn't be.  

17           You know, programs have operating costs, just 

18           like any other not-for-profit.  

19                  And we're bifurcating the services 

20           right now that these programs are providing.  

21           Residential services get reimbursed through 

22           this per diem, and all the other 

23           nonresidential services that programs provide 

24           are -- you know, with contracts with the 


                                                                   531

 1           county DSSs.  

 2                  We'd like to see these services 

 3           merged -- New York State is the only state 

 4           that does it this way -- and that we provide 

 5           funding to programs for the services in 

 6           totality that they provide.  So removing it 

 7           from a per diem entirely.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 9                  I see Senator John Liu with his hand 

10           up.  I did see Senator John -- yes, there you 

11           are.

12                  SENATOR LIU:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  

13           I know they don't want me to show my -- oh, 

14           there we go.  All right, thank you very much.  

15                  I want to thank this panel for their 

16           testimony.  I just have a quick question for 

17           Mr. Silverman.  

18                  You spoke of supporting the 

19           reorganization of our state's judiciary.  And 

20           are you in support of the proposals that the 

21           Chief Justice has already made?  Is that the 

22           specific proposal and reorganization that you 

23           support?

24                  MR. SILVERMAN:  Yes, Senator, that's 


                                                                   532

 1           exactly the proposal that we support.

 2                  SENATOR LIU:  Okay.  That's very 

 3           helpful.  Thank you very much.  

 4                  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 6                  And the chair of our Judiciary 

 7           Committee in the Assembly, Chuck Lavine.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you, 

 9           Madam Chair.  

10                  This will be the best political speech 

11           of all time.  Sincere thanks to each of you 

12           for what you do.  Thank you very much.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

14                  Indeed, thank you all very much for 

15           what you do.

16                  All right, our next panel, we have the 

17           PBA of New York State, Manuel Vilar; the 

18           New York State Police Investigators 

19           Association, Timothy Dymond; the 

20           Police Conference of New York, Richard Wells; 

21           the New York State Association of PBAs, 

22           Michael O'Meara; and the New York State 

23           Troopers PBA, Thomas Mungeer.  

24                  And I will ask Manuel Vilar to start 


                                                                   533

 1           us off.  Do we have you?

 2                  VICE PRESIDENT VILAR:  There we go, I 

 3           think we're unmuted.  

 4                  Hello, Chairwomen Krueger and 

 5           Weinstein and other members of the 

 6           Public Protection Committee.  Thank you for 

 7           your continued support and interest in the 

 8           men and women of the Police Benevolent 

 9           Association of New York State.  My name is 

10           Manuel Vilar.  I'm the founding president and 

11           current vice president.  I'm also a 

12           37-year-veteran sergeant of the New York 

13           State Park Police.

14                  I'm here today to advocate for the 

15           merger of the Park Police into the New York 

16           State Police, Senate Bill 4647.  There will 

17           be a same-as in the Assembly on deck soon.  

18           The Park Police is a division of OPRHP and is 

19           currently under command and control of the 

20           Division of State Police.  

21                  New York state parks, by their very 

22           nature, are geographically challenging, 

23           beautiful, and yet dangerous places.  To 

24           perform these duties, New York State Park 


                                                                   534

 1           Police officers receive the same training as 

 2           State Troopers, plus specialized training to 

 3           be prepared to assist patrons when crimes, 

 4           accidents and other life-threatening 

 5           incidents occur.

 6                  State Park Police, with their 

 7           specialized training in snowmobiling, 

 8           high-angle rope and swiftwater rescue, to 

 9           name a few, are a critical part of New York 

10           State's response to natural disasters, 

11           weather emergencies and other catastrophic 

12           events, including the current civil unrest in 

13           multiple cities throughout New York State.

14                  During the current COVID-19 crisis, 

15           State Park Police have been at the forefront 

16           of protecting testing and vaccine sites, some 

17           located at various state parks, as well as 

18           non-state-park locations.  Several State Park 

19           Police officers, including myself, have all 

20           contracted COVID-19.  

21                  The lack of State Park Police levels 

22           is quickly reaching crisis proportion.  In 

23           the past 15 months we've seen a 15 percent 

24           reduction in staff.  In fact, since 2000, 


                                                                   535

 1           State Park Police have graduated over 500 

 2           officers, only to have 53 percent -- 255 

 3           officers -- leave for other police 

 4           departments with better pay, 20-year pension, 

 5           and disability protections.  The cost to 

 6           New York State to train all those police 

 7           officers over 16 Park Police academies, has 

 8           been roughly $80 million.

 9                  The second issue adversely impacting 

10           our members -- and not only the Park Police, 

11           but all four police forces in the PBA -- is 

12           the slow-walking by the Governor's office of 

13           the 2015-2018 binding arbitration award.  

14           This has left PBA members stuck at salary 

15           levels from 2014.  Our members have not had a 

16           raise since 2014, despite having a binding 

17           arbitration award in place.

18                  Because of State Parks' inability to 

19           operate and maintain a viable, functioning 

20           State Park Police force, for the safety of 

21           the public and our members we are requesting 

22           that the State Legislature pass the New York 

23           State Trooper-Park Police Merger Bill that we 

24           have submitted and include the Governor's 


                                                                   536

 1           program bill enacting the terms of the 

 2           2015-2018 binding arbitration award.  We 

 3           believe this would go a long way to making 

 4           state parks much safer as well as spending 

 5           tax dollars wisely.

 6                  Again, I'd like to thank you for this 

 7           opportunity to speak to you, and I'm happy to 

 8           answer any questions anyone may have.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

10           much.  Just a smidge past the three minutes.

11                  Timothy Dymond, New York State Police 

12           Investigators Association.

13                  PRESIDENT DYMOND:  Yes, ma'am.  Good 

14           afternoon, Senate and Assembly members.  My 

15           name is Tim Dymond, and I am a senior 

16           investigator with the New York State Police.  

17                  And I am the elected president of 

18           NYSPIA, the New York State Police 

19           Investigators Association.  I represent 

20           approximately 1100 investigators and senior 

21           investigators across the State of New York, 

22           and we cover all the heavies.  We handle the 

23           felonies, the murders, the rapes, the 

24           robberies, the human trafficking, the gang 


                                                                   537

 1           violence.  That's the stuff that my 

 2           membership does.

 3                  NYSPIA's members are hand-selected 

 4           from the most highly trained uniformed 

 5           Troopers and represent some of the best that 

 6           our agency has to offer.  My membership, 

 7           along with every police agency in the 

 8           country, is dealing with historic policy 

 9           change, a job expectation that seemingly 

10           changes by the day.  Our members have 

11           displayed a strength, a resilience and a 

12           compassion that I'm incredibly proud of 

13           through what has been one of the most 

14           difficult times law enforcement officers have 

15           dealt with nationwide.

16                  We as an agency have proven to be 

17           highly adaptable to the rush of current law 

18           enforcement reforms, and we continue to take 

19           a leadership role in the law enforcement 

20           community, maintaining the highest quality 

21           services to the citizens of New York.

22                  Our highest priority this year is the 

23           same as most years:  It's the replacement of 

24           retired members.  Our members are leaving at 


                                                                   538

 1           a breakneck pace.  We have approximately lost 

 2           20 percent of our senior investigators 

 3           statewide.  Those investigators supervise all 

 4           these investigative units around the state, 

 5           and losing them has caused our investigator 

 6           ranks to now be depleted.

 7                  We are now at what I would say is a 

 8           critical point where we need a class of 

 9           Troopers.  We can't have investigators if we 

10           don't hire Troopers.  

11                  Second, the automobile fleet.  I'm 

12           happy to report that our fleet has improved, 

13           and a lot of that is a testament to the work 

14           the Legislature has done on the fleet.  It is 

15           more diverse, it is younger.  The diversity 

16           of our vehicles in the field helps our 

17           undercover units to remain concealed, which, 

18           as someone that was a senior investigator in 

19           the violent gang unit, is very important to 

20           me.

21                  I have an issue in here for a UC gun 

22           program.  We're looking for support from the 

23           Legislature to provide our undercover 

24           members -- and there's about 300 of them 


                                                                   539

 1           scattered throughout New York State, in all 

 2           cities, towns and villages -- we would like 

 3           to get them a weapon that is easily concealed 

 4           so they can remain safe in the field.  If 

 5           they are made to be police, it puts them at 

 6           risk, and we want to keep them safe.

 7                  The proposed legalization of adult-use 

 8           cannabis and online gambling will generate 

 9           revenue.  It will also generate some 

10           black-market crime that we are going to have 

11           to act on.  

12                  That's a sprint through.  Thank you 

13           for listening to these important issues.  

14                  Law enforcement reform is a leading 

15           discussion topic right now in the country.  

16           As reforms are implemented, there's no 

17           question New York State Police will be looked 

18           upon to lead the charge professionally and 

19           respectfully.  If the police, Legislature and 

20           members of these communities can bridge the 

21           gap and be the glue, we can cause positive 

22           change while keeping our communities safe.

23                  Thank you.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  


                                                                   540

 1           That's certainly what we all want.

 2                  Richard Wells, Police Conference of 

 3           New York.

 4                  PRESIDENT WELLS:  Good evening, 

 5           everyone.  Richard Wells, president of the 

 6           Police Conference of New York, which is a 

 7           coalition of over 200 local PBAs throughout 

 8           the State of New York.  

 9                  My comments this evening will be kind 

10           of an expansion on Commissioner Green's 

11           testimony earlier as regards training of 

12           police officers.  We're asking that the 

13           Legislature consider establishing a statewide 

14           training curriculum for police officers, 

15           especially as regards to in-service training.

16                  Currently there are certain standards 

17           that are in existence by the Bureau of 

18           Municipal Police and the Municipal Police 

19           Training Council, minimum standards that must 

20           be met, but that's as far as it goes.

21                  In-service training is conducted 

22           sporadically throughout this state and very 

23           infrequently.  Some jurisdictions don't do it 

24           at all.  There are police officers that, 


                                                                   541

 1           after they leave the academy, go through 

 2           their entire career never receiving any 

 3           further training.  This is not good, 

 4           especially in light of the current 

 5           circumstances we find the police profession 

 6           in.  

 7                  Academy lengths differ throughout the 

 8           state.  In-service training is not done 

 9           frequently enough.  Due to changes enacted by 

10           the Legislature on use of force, retraining 

11           is necessary.  Police officers encounter 

12           violent people every day.  It is obvious that 

13           physical force, use of pepper spray, other 

14           chemical weapons or Tasers are now considered 

15           suspect and frowned upon.  

16                  Police officers are confused and 

17           bewildered on how to do their jobs.  Cops are 

18           expected to keep the peace, enforce the law 

19           and make arrests without using any 

20           substantial force, deal with violent, 

21           emotionally disturbed persons, control riots.  

22           This necessitates innovative and increased 

23           training.  

24                  Increasing the length of the academy 


                                                                   542

 1           should be considered.  In-service training 

 2           must be frequent and substantial so police 

 3           officers are current on all law changes.  

 4                  In the past, cost has always been 

 5           cited as a reason not to do in-service 

 6           training.  The Legislature should give 

 7           consideration to sufficient resources -- 

 8           applying sufficient resources to local police 

 9           departments so that they can send all of 

10           their officers to training on a regular 

11           basis.  Consideration should also be given to 

12           imposing sanctions on municipalities that 

13           fail to provide such training.  

14                  The cop on the street is held 

15           responsible for every action that he or she 

16           takes while they're working.  They, however, 

17           do not and cannot schedule their own 

18           training.  Police unions have no say in 

19           police training.  Police chiefs have budget 

20           and personnel constraints.  

21                  Adequate and meaningful training will 

22           be difficult to implement.  It will be 

23           expensive and time-consuming.  But if the 

24           goal is to have police officers adapt to the 


                                                                   543

 1           changing standards in the use of force and 

 2           laws of arrest, then it is incumbent upon the 

 3           Legislature to provide the funding and means 

 4           to accomplish it.  It cannot be an unfunded 

 5           mandate.  If it is, it will never happen.  

 6                  The bill submitted yesterday by 

 7           Senator Savino might be a good place to start 

 8           this process.  

 9                  Thank you.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

11           much.

12                  Michael O'Meara, New York State 

13           Association of PBAs.

14                  PRESIDENT O'MEARA:  Good evening.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Good evening.

16                  PRESIDENT O'MEARA:  Thank you for 

17           letting me address you.  

18                  I wanted to start to talk about 

19           training as well.  I'm Michael O'Meara.  I am 

20           the president of the New York State 

21           Association of PBAs.  It's an umbrella group 

22           that represents about 45,000 police officers 

23           in New York State.  It's the largest umbrella 

24           group of police officers in the state.


                                                                   544

 1                  Senator Savino did submit Senate Bill 

 2           4706, I believe it was yesterday.  And I 

 3           believe that's a great place to start, 

 4           because we have not had many conversations 

 5           with legislators about police reform.  

 6                  4706 proves that police reform does 

 7           not have to equate to police punishment.  

 8           Police reform can be a hand-in-hand process 

 9           that we can help accomplish in this state, 

10           and we embrace that.

11                  To expand a little bit on what Richie 

12           said and what the commissioner of DCJS said 

13           earlier, think about this.  We've expanded 

14           our program to give new police officers 

15           700 hours of training.  That's the basic 

16           minimum course.  It sounds like a lot, right?  

17           But if a young man of 21 enters the 

18           police academy -- or a young woman -- on 

19           January 1st, by the end of April they're a 

20           police officer walking around with a gun, 

21           with a mace and with a Taser.  

22                  And after they leave that police 

23           academy, they don't go back for any training 

24           whatsoever.  There's no training.  We don't 


                                                                   545

 1           go for training.  You can go -- I'm in my 

 2           31st year.  I've never put my hands on 

 3           anybody in a training aspect except when I'm 

 4           in the police academy.  When you explain that 

 5           to people, they're horrified.  They would 

 6           think that in a profession where we are 

 7           engaging the public at such a high level, 

 8           that we would have to be trained.  

 9                  Senator Bailey has a great bill in.  

10           And after our history over the last year or 

11           two, you'd think that's funny that I'm saying 

12           that.  It's a great bill, mandates that 

13           police departments have to train police 

14           officers in firing their weapon at least once 

15           a year.  Can you imagine that we have to 

16           legislate that?  Because there is -- there is 

17           no policy, there's no procedure.  So once we 

18           leave the police academy, we're out there.  

19           We're out there with the public.  We don't go 

20           back.  We don't get retrained.  

21                  We don't hire people -- police in 

22           police unions, you know, we don't hire 

23           people, we don't train people, we don't 

24           deploy people, we don't equip people, we 


                                                                   546

 1           don't investigate people.  We just represent 

 2           police officers because we have a duty of 

 3           fair representation.  And somehow that makes 

 4           us evil in some aspects.

 5                  But all I'm telling -- and thank you 

 6           for letting me speak -- is that we need to 

 7           have some budgetary money for in-service 

 8           training for police officers that's mandated, 

 9           mandated.  That police officers should be 

10           trained at a high level, not just four months 

11           when they're in their 20s and then just go 

12           out and do the job.

13                  So I appreciate Senator Savino's bill, 

14           and I appreciate you letting me speak.  Thank 

15           you.  And have a good night; I hope it ends 

16           quickly for you.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

18                  And the last panelist, Thomas Mungeer, 

19           New York State Troopers PBA.

20                  PRESIDENT MUNGEER:  Thank you.  

21           Madam Chair, members of the committee, I 

22           appreciate this opportunity.  

23                  This is actually my 12th time 

24           addressing this committee in my time as 


                                                                   547

 1           president of the Troopers PBA.  I represent 

 2           6,000 active and retired Troopers, the 

 3           uniformed Troopers that you see on the side 

 4           of the road.  

 5                  This is almost like the movie 

 6           Groundhog Day.  When I first started doing 

 7           this job back in 2009, in 2010 I addressed 

 8           this committee that we hadn't had an academy 

 9           class.  And we went three and a half years 

10           without an academy class, and our levels of 

11           manpower got dangerously low.  And we had to 

12           start cutting services for the public.

13                  Well, we -- our last class, the last 

14           Trooper we hired was in 2019.  Last year we 

15           did not have a class.  And this year there is 

16           no money budgeted for a class.  So I'm 

17           offering a cautionary tale that I'd hate to 

18           see us go down that road where we were a 

19           little over a decade ago, with our manpower 

20           levels dwindling to dangerous levels.  

21                  And again, this is not the time to cut 

22           police services in our statewide capacity.  I 

23           know that my superintendent had testified 

24           earlier today the different duties that we 


                                                                   548

 1           have, and more duties are going to be heaped 

 2           upon us with the legalization of marijuana 

 3           and so forth.

 4                  Right now I could use 300 Troopers.  I 

 5           need a class of at least 250 to get them up 

 6           and going.  And it takes 18 months to train a 

 7           Trooper and get them onto the roads so they 

 8           can ride by themselves.  So we have to 

 9           actually do this somewhat quickly.  And 

10           again, I'd hate to be in this situation this 

11           time next year testifying before you when my 

12           manpower levels have dwindled even further.

13                  I'll echo my counterparts with the 

14           training.  In the New York State Police we do 

15           have in-service.  We have a vigorous 

16           in-service training program.  And I believe 

17           it is good to use that as a model to bring 

18           all other police officers in the state up to 

19           that level with yearly training, and to also 

20           enact the different policies, the different 

21           law changes, the different training 

22           techniques that are out there.  All police 

23           officers should have a yearly refresher in 

24           order to do this.  


                                                                   549

 1                  And again, the New York State Police 

 2           has a vigorous in-service training program.  

 3           It works.  I believe that the State Police 

 4           operates at an extremely high level, you 

 5           know, for training purposes.  And again, I 

 6           saw Senator Savino's bill, very interesting.  

 7           And I think she's on the right track.  And 

 8           let's get through this next year all 

 9           together, working as a team.  

10                  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

12                  And Senator Savino's had her hand up, 

13           and we all keep talking about her, so I think 

14           I'll call on her first.  

15                  Are you there, Diane?

16                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Yes.  Thank you, 

17           Senator Krueger.  Am I unmuted?  Yes, I think 

18           so.  Okay.  

19                  First I want to thank the panel for 

20           testifying and sharing their experiences.  I 

21           also want to thank them for actually I guess 

22           writing the memo in support of my 

23           legislation.  But in all honesty, I do 

24           appreciate them, because they helped me 


                                                                   550

 1           understand better just how difficult the 

 2           police reform process will be in New York 

 3           State.  

 4                  When the Governor last year tasked 

 5           each and every locality and each department 

 6           with coming up with ways to make our police 

 7           better and to reform their practices, one of 

 8           the things that became glaringly evident is 

 9           that we did not have a standard across the 

10           state.  As Tommy Mungeer spoke, the State 

11           Police have the highest standards and they 

12           train regularly, but it became very clear 

13           very quickly that that was a rare instance 

14           across the state, including the largest 

15           police department in the state, which is the 

16           NYPD.  So my legislation that we introduced 

17           yesterday answers that.  

18                  And we also heard earlier tonight the 

19           commissioner of DCJS talk about how they've 

20           proposed a new training curriculum of 

21           700 extra hours, but it's not mandated, it's 

22           not required.  And as we heard from Richie 

23           Wells, if we don't mandate it and require it 

24           and we don't provide funding, it will not 


                                                                   551

 1           happen.  

 2                  We all have an interest in better 

 3           police and better police practices.  Every 

 4           one of us wants that.  And I think if we 

 5           follow the bill that I introduced -- and we 

 6           can even improve upon it, working together -- 

 7           we'll wind up with exactly what we want.  

 8           Everyone wants better police.

 9                  So I want to thank everyone for 

10           helping me draft the bill.  And I want to 

11           thank you guys for the work that you're doing 

12           keeping us safe, and keep yourselves safe.

13                  Thank you.  

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

15                  And we have been rejoined by Helene 

16           Weinstein, who didn't --

17                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  So 

18           we have --

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  -- she had 

20           another big assignment for the Assembly.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So we have a 

22           number of Assemblymembers with questions or 

23           comments.  So we go first to Assemblyman 

24           Lavine, then Lawler, then Ra, then Palmesano, 


                                                                   552

 1           in that order.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you, 

 3           Chair Weinstein.

 4                  And I want to thank each of you, and 

 5           please thank your membership for protecting 

 6           us all.

 7                  I have a quick question, a follow-up 

 8           question for President Dymond.  So we want 

 9           more compact firearms for undercover 

10           officers.  Do you have a sense of how many of 

11           these firearms are going to be needed, what 

12           kind, and how much would that cost?

13                  PRESIDENT DYMOND:  Yes, sir, and I 

14           appreciate the question and the interest in 

15           that topic.  

16                  So we're looking for a subcompact 

17           weapon for approximately 300 members.  We're 

18           looking at an estimated cost of around 

19           $150,000.  Which, you know, it is a -- it's a 

20           big number, but if it keeps our undercover 

21           members safe and concealed, I think it's a 

22           very worthy way to spend those funds.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Do you have a 

24           particular make or model in mind?


                                                                   553

 1                  PRESIDENT DYMOND:  We are taking a 

 2           look at a bunch of different makes and 

 3           models.  The biggest concern for me is that 

 4           it's something that is subcompact, easily 

 5           concealed in the waistband or pocket, and the 

 6           most important thing is it doesn't look like 

 7           the same weapon that our uniformed 

 8           State Troopers wear and our suit-and-tie 

 9           investigators wear.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE:  Thank you very 

11           much.  Thank you all.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senate, I 

13           believe you have a Senator?

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Senator John Liu, 

15           thank you.

16                  SENATOR LIU:  Hello?

17                  (Zoom interruption.)

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Somebody's going 

19           to have to put their mute on --

20                  SENATOR LIU:  I don't know if you can 

21           hear me, Madam Chair, but -- Madam Chair?

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yes.

23                  SENATOR LIU:  Oh, okay.  Thank you 

24           very much.  


                                                                   554

 1                  I appreciate this panel's input.  I do 

 2           appreciate the comments about the police 

 3           reform that has taken place, not only in 

 4           New York but across the country, and attempts 

 5           at more police reform.  I think the comments 

 6           have been constructive.  I think Senator 

 7           Savino already spoke with many of us rather 

 8           eloquently, and I understand that you all 

 9           pretty much universally support her bill, so 

10           that's helpful.  And I also appreciate the 

11           support mentioned for Senator Bailey.

12                  I do want to say something, though.  

13           One of the comments was that, you know, we 

14           need to train our police -- which is 

15           definitely true -- train them and not always 

16           look to punish.  

17                  I would only add that it's -- that I 

18           don't think there's a universal intent to 

19           punish officers, but asking for 

20           accountability is not synonymous with 

21           punishing.  So, you know, I would ask that 

22           you are tremendous leaders in law enforcement 

23           here in New York State, and you have a voice 

24           far beyond as well.  So accountability is not 


                                                                   555

 1           the same as punishment.  

 2                  And with that, I really do want to 

 3           thank these gentlemen and their members for 

 4           the work that they do.  The work is vital.  

 5           At the same time, in government we need to 

 6           fine-tune what responsibilities in government 

 7           should be carried out by which agencies.

 8                  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 9                  If any of the gentlemen would like to 

10           respond, I'm all ears.  But that's all I have 

11           to say, Madam Chair.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, 

13           Senator Liu.  

14                  If any of them would like to respond, 

15           they have -- oh, nope, they lost their one 

16           minute on the clock.  They could have had one 

17           minute.

18                  SENATOR LIU:  My office is always open 

19           to you.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  Thank you.

21                  Assembly.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

23                  We go to Assemblyman Lawler, please.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Thank you, Madam 


                                                                   556

 1           Chairwoman.

 2                  And thank you to everybody.  I'm 

 3           actually proud to represent one of our 

 4           esteemed panelists here in the State 

 5           Assembly.

 6                  I think one of the things that's 

 7           critically important as we move forward with 

 8           any potential reforms is obviously that law 

 9           enforcement is included in the discussion.  I 

10           think what is evidently clear over the last 

11           few years is that law enforcement really 

12           hasn't been part of the discussion on some of 

13           these criminal justice reforms that came down 

14           the pike.

15                  One thing I just want to point out to 

16           all of you, which you may or may not be aware 

17           of, is that last year obviously the 

18           Legislature repealed 50-a of the Civil Rights 

19           Law, which impacted obviously the personnel 

20           files for many of your members.  One thing 

21           you should be aware of is that under the 

22           rules of the New York State Assembly, Rule 8, 

23           this body exempts itself from being subject 

24           to FOIL.


                                                                   557

 1                  So just so you're aware of kind of the 

 2           hypocrisy of some of the bills that get 

 3           passed.  So when we talk about accountability 

 4           and not punishment, that actually does seem 

 5           like punishment and not really accountability 

 6           when we're not holding ourselves to the same 

 7           standards that we hold your members to.

 8                  With respect to marijuana 

 9           legalization, I have a quick question for 

10           you.  There's only one state -- of the states 

11           that have in fact legalized marijuana, 

12           there's only one state that has capped the 

13           potency of marijuana.  Do any of you have an 

14           opinion on whether or not you think we -- if 

15           we do end up legalizing recreational use of 

16           marijuana, that we should cap the potency of 

17           it?

18                  PRESIDENT MUNGEER:  Well, I'll just 

19           say that you should -- you know, whatever 

20           laws that this esteemed body passes, we're 

21           tasked to enforce.  So if you do decide to 

22           cap it, we'll act accordingly in our 

23           enforcement acts out on the road.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Okay.


                                                                   558

 1                  With respect to in-service training, I 

 2           agree it's critically important.  I know 

 3           where I live down in Rockland County, we have 

 4           great in-service training for all of our 

 5           officers who work in our various police 

 6           departments within our municipalities.

 7                  So I absolutely agree with your 

 8           comments that, you know, in-service training 

 9           is critical, and providing the funding for 

10           that, especially as we make some of these 

11           criminal justice reforms, to make sure that 

12           all of your members have the necessary and 

13           adequate training that they need to do their 

14           jobs, you know, responsibly and so that, you 

15           know, they can enforce the law and uphold 

16           standards.

17                  The academy class, I think that's a 

18           critically important point.  I know last year 

19           the Rockland County police exam was canceled.  

20           So I certainly agree with your assessment for 

21           the State Police and all of our police 

22           departments that we need to in fact get these 

23           police exams and classes on the books and get 

24           the funding for it, because I think one thing 


                                                                   559

 1           we've seen is a lot of people have retired as 

 2           a result of some of these reforms, so we 

 3           definitely desperately need to fill some of 

 4           these positions.  So I appreciate your 

 5           comments on that.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 7                  The last Assembly -- no, I see two 

 8           Assemblymembers more.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes.  So we go 

10           to Assemblyman Ra and then Assemblyman 

11           Palmesano.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, Chairs.

13                  Panelists, thank you all.  Thank you 

14           to all of your members for their service 

15           during -- you know, the last year has 

16           obviously been, between COVID and a lot of 

17           the unrest and things we saw last year -- you 

18           know, and they kept being out there each and 

19           every day to keep the public safe.  So thank 

20           you to each and every one of your members.

21                  I was just wondering if -- you know, 

22           in particular maybe for Mr. O'Meara and -- 

23           regarding this proposal in the budget that 

24           deals with the Governor's executive order 


                                                                   560

 1           that requires, you know, changes at the local 

 2           level with the potential of funding being 

 3           withheld and the potential of a monitor being 

 4           put in to oversee a local department.  

 5                  How have -- you know, from the 

 6           departments that are members of your 

 7           organization, I'm sure there are some that 

 8           probably have already put in plans and others 

 9           that are going through that process.  I'm 

10           just wondering if you have any perspective on 

11           how that is going.

12                  PRESIDENT O'MEARA:  Yeah, we've had a 

13           lot of perspective on it from our member 

14           associations.  A lot of the police unions 

15           actually were not even represented on a lot 

16           of those panels, so ...  

17                  But my take on that is that it's going 

18           to be these numerous, numerous reports from 

19           all over every corner of New York State that 

20           are all going to be different.  But last year 

21           we passed a bill that the Attorney General of 

22           New York State is the single person that 

23           looks into police misconduct.  

24                  So you have 40 to 50, I believe, 


                                                                   561

 1           police academies in New York State.  

 2           Everybody learns something different.  We 

 3           keep on changing laws.  And like we said, 

 4           we're not trained up to the laws, we're just 

 5           told about the laws.  And now we're going to 

 6           have these commissions from all over the 

 7           state coming up with ideas and plans on how 

 8           the profession of policing is going to 

 9           change.  And, you know, that's okay.  I mean, 

10           we have to -- we have to, you know, learn to 

11           adapt and move on.  But we don't get 

12           training.  

13                  You know, they did the compression 

14           bill in New York City and the plan is to show 

15           a video on how police officers who learned to 

16           take people down and, you know, go on their 

17           back or sit on them -- they learn this in the 

18           academy -- we're going to show them a 

19           videotape now to teach them to not do it.

20                  So, you know, if that's the case -- 

21           you know, I watched a lot of karate movies 

22           when I was a kid.  I should be a black belt, 

23           but I'm not.  

24                  You know, you've got to -- you have to 


                                                                   562

 1           go through training.  You have to go through 

 2           training.  You can't just -- you know, you 

 3           can't be handed a piece of paper or shown a 

 4           video.  You know, this is -- as you all know, 

 5           this is serious business.  And we all know 

 6           that too.  You know, we represent police.  

 7                  So we have to treat it seriously, we 

 8           have to allocate the funds, and we have to 

 9           train our police officers to match what these 

10           commissions are going to come up with.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman 

13           Palmesano.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Yes --

15                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Phil, you're 

16           muted?

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Muted.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Oh.  Sorry 

19           about that.

20                  Good evening, gentlemen.  I don't have 

21           any questions for you tonight, just a few 

22           comments, if I may.

23                  First I just wanted to say -- take 

24           this opportunity to say thank you to you and 


                                                                   563

 1           your members for your selfless dedication, 

 2           commitment, service and sacrifice to protect 

 3           us and keep us safe.

 4                  You know, each and every day you and 

 5           your members leave your house and say goodbye 

 6           to your spouse and/or kids, not knowing 

 7           whether you're going to return home safely.  

 8           Although unfortunately some of the policies 

 9           coming out of Albany the past couple of years 

10           certainly doesn't reflect this appreciation, 

11           I just want you to know, on behalf of myself, 

12           my family, my community and certainly a 

13           number of my colleagues in the Legislature, 

14           how very truly grateful we all are to you for 

15           all that you do, have done, and will continue 

16           to do for all of us.

17                  So on that note, I just want to say 

18           thank you, God bless you, and please be safe.

19                  Thank you.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

21                  We go to Assemblyman Chris Burdick.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you, 

23           Madam Chair.

24                  And I want to thank you all for your 


                                                                   564

 1           testimony.  And I also want to echo the 

 2           thanks that have been expressed for your 

 3           service to the state and to keeping us safe.

 4                  There has been a good deal of concern 

 5           and discussion regarding the potential 

 6           legalization of recreational marijuana.  And 

 7           this afternoon there was a very enlightening 

 8           discussion with Acting Superintendent 

 9           Kevin Bruen of the New York State Division of 

10           State Police, and there was a fair deal of 

11           discussion regarding how will we be coping 

12           with driving under the influence of 

13           marijuana.  

14                  And I think that for some, that's 

15           regarded as something new, something untried.  

16           But one of the things that became clear, that 

17           the comment that was "This is nothing new.  

18           We're already enforcing.  It doesn't have to 

19           be legalized in order for us to enforce 

20           this."  They're already looking for those who 

21           are driving under the influence, testing for 

22           THC and so forth.  

23                  And I'm wondering if you could comment 

24           on that.  I don't know which panelist would 


                                                                   565

 1           feel best in addressing it, but I'd like to 

 2           get your take on it and your feeling about 

 3           the preparedness to go forward should 

 4           recreational marijuana be legalized.

 5                  PRESIDENT MUNGEER:  I'll take that, 

 6           Tom Mungeer from the Troopers.

 7                  I am a drug recognition expert, and -- 

 8           but that beside, we do that, police officers, 

 9           every day they go out there.  The charge is 

10           DWAI, drugs.  And it's based on a police 

11           officer's observations on how somebody 

12           drives.  You know, whether somebody's under 

13           the influence of alcohol or some other 

14           substance, your initial stop is based on the 

15           observation of how somebody operates that 

16           vehicle.  And then our investigation then 

17           continues through there. 

18                  So just because marijuana is going to 

19           be legalized, it doesn't change the way we 

20           investigate and do business.  We're out there 

21           anyway.

22                  Will more people be under the 

23           influence?  I guess that remains to be seen.  

24           I do believe we need more funding for drug 


                                                                   566

 1           recognition experts throughout the state.  

 2                  And I think it also comes back -- and 

 3           this segues back to the training, that police 

 4           officers should --

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  I just have a 

 6           couple of seconds left.  So you feel fairly 

 7           confident that you'll be prepared for this 

 8           should this occur?

 9                  PRESIDENT MUNGEER:  Absolutely.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you so 

11           much.  I appreciate it.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you to 

13           the panel for all of the work your members 

14           do.  I've worked with many of you over the 

15           years.  

16                  And I'll go back to the Senate; I 

17           believe we have no more members who want to 

18           speak.

19                  (Pause.)

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I was on mute, I 

21           apologize.

22                  I just want to let everyone know that 

23           we are very open to working with all of you 

24           on additional changes we can and should be 


                                                                   567

 1           making in New York, and I really appreciated 

 2           your honesty about the fact that this has 

 3           been tough times for you, and this has been 

 4           tough times for a lot of communities as we 

 5           evaluate the need to learn to talk to each 

 6           other and to get things right.

 7                  And it sounds like you all think we 

 8           need improved training.  I come from New York 

 9           City, just for the record; they're not doing 

10           anything once you graduate the first time.  

11           Our NYPD training academy, I describe it as a 

12           combination of a trip to Star Wars and 

13           Harvard at the same time.  So they're not 

14           letting anybody go back and continue their 

15           training once they've graduated.  That's 

16           extremely disturbing.  Because I think we 

17           could probably provide the facilities for the 

18           entire state at that campus.

19                  So again, thank you very much for your 

20           work and for your being with us tonight.

21                  And our next panel, for those who are 

22           keeping track, Panel D:  The District 

23           Attorneys Association of the State of 

24           New York, Anthony Jordan, from Washington 


                                                                   568

 1           County; representing the Defenders 

 2           Association, Susan Bryant; the Chief 

 3           Defenders Association, Laurette Mulry; a 

 4           group called Students Demand Action, 

 5           Audrey Sample, student leader; and the 

 6           New York State Dispute Resolution 

 7           Association, Regina Ritcey. 

 8                  I'll start with the District Attorneys 

 9           Association, if you're here.

10                  WASHINGTON COUNTY DA JORDAN:  I am.

11                  Chairwomen Weinstein and Krueger, 

12           thank you for letting us speak with you this 

13           evening on behalf of the DAs Association.  On 

14           behalf of our president, Sandra Doorley, she 

15           sends her regrets, but she was not able to 

16           get out of a prior commitment.  

17                  When we've been looking at this year's 

18           Executive Budget, but certainly in following 

19           the discussions in the Legislature, there are 

20           some areas in the criminal justice system 

21           that certainly continue to remain in very 

22           sharp focus.  A few of the areas that I think 

23           matter certainly to our organization, but I 

24           suspect to many on this current panel, 


                                                                   569

 1           include pre-arrest and judicial diversion.  

 2           These provide great opportunities, both for 

 3           the accused -- but my experience is they do a 

 4           great amount of good toward reducing 

 5           recidivism.

 6                  Certainly as we look at the 

 7           legislation to add greater access to mental 

 8           health and Veterans Court, that is a great 

 9           and important initiative.

10                  I think what we find, though, as we 

11           look at these, the implementation of these 

12           initiatives, there's a significant resource 

13           gap in the state.  And I think as we look at 

14           bringing about these programs, I would ask 

15           that you consider those issues so that the 

16           accused can have access to these diversion 

17           programs and then DA's offices can certainly 

18           make them available.

19                  Certainly discovery and the changes 

20           that came about as part of the 2019-2020 

21           budget brought about a change to the criminal 

22           justice system unlike any,  I suspect, in the 

23           last generation.  Our offices spent months 

24           working together, collaboratively, to -- I 


                                                                   570

 1           won't use the full three minutes.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yeah, I'm not 

 3           sure what happened with the clock.  It was 

 4           our fault, so just --

 5                  WASHINGTON COUNTY DA JORDAN:  No, no.

 6                  But, you know, we spent a great deal 

 7           of time trying to come up with how to comply 

 8           with the spirit of the law.  And certainly 

 9           none of this would have been possible without 

10           that collaborative effort amongst the offices 

11           and the contribution of NYPTI, which is the 

12           New York Prosecutor Training Institute.  

13                  Their programs, their case management 

14           system, but most importantly the digital 

15           evidence management system that they helped 

16           develop has made our ability to turn over 

17           voluminous, you know, amounts of discovery in 

18           a very rapid period of time possible.  So we 

19           would ask that you certainly continue to look 

20           to fund their efforts.  

21                  But also, much of the burden of 

22           discovery fell squarely on the backs of the 

23           localities on very tight budgets.  And there 

24           was not a commensurate amount of support for 


                                                                   571

 1           the localities.  And we would just ask, so 

 2           that we can all continue to comply with not 

 3           just the letter of the law, but truly the 

 4           spirit of the law, what is it for and what is 

 5           the goal, to look to provide that type of 

 6           funding.

 7                  I know there's been a lot of talk 

 8           about body-worn cameras for the State Police.  

 9           And what a significant step forward in 

10           continued transparency and accountability.  

11           But body-worn cameras are great, but they are 

12           very expensive -- not only the expenses that 

13           we heard Acting Commissioner Bruen mention 

14           for State Police to purchase, but the cost to 

15           the localities to review, to store and to 

16           deliver the body-worn cameras.  In much of 

17           the state, public defender's offices are also 

18           part of county government, and so there's 

19           going to be duplicative storage of all of 

20           that data.

21                  So we would just ask not only do you 

22           look for funding toward the State Police 

23           side, but also for our localities again in 

24           that area.


                                                                   572

 1                  And I'll wrap up sort of quickly here.  

 2           A lot of talk about decriminalizing 

 3           marijuana, a lot of focus on driving.  But 

 4           there are other public safety and public 

 5           health issues that, as you explore this, we 

 6           would just encourage the continued discussion 

 7           with all of the experts, as I know you will, 

 8           but also include our offices, because we are 

 9           on the front line of trying to move these 

10           cases through the system.

11                  And then lastly, you know, DAASNY, 

12           we're here, we're ready, we want to work with 

13           you to try to bring about these important 

14           initiatives.  And certainly would look to 

15           help explore the resource gaps that we see 

16           that exist throughout the state.

17                  So thank you very much.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

19                  Next is New York State Defenders 

20           Association.

21                  MS. BRYANT:  Hi, good evening, Chairs 

22           Krueger and Weinstein and the rest of the 

23           members that have stayed on.  I appreciate 

24           your time and the opportunity to testify.


                                                                   573

 1                  In fact, this is earlier testifying 

 2           than ever before, so I greatly appreciate 

 3           that.

 4                  My name is Susan Bryant.  I'm the 

 5           executive director of the New York State 

 6           Defenders Association.  And I'm proud to talk 

 7           to you today about the work of the Defenders 

 8           Association and to ask for your ongoing 

 9           support.

10                  So NYSDA is a nonprofit organization 

11           that provides a wide range of services to 

12           public defenders around the state who 

13           represent individuals in criminal and family 

14           court proceedings.  So we are really the 

15           counterpart to NYPTI, which my previous 

16           panelist spoke about.  And we've been funded 

17           by New York State since the early '80s to do 

18           this work as the public defense backup 

19           center.  

20                  And for five years we've also run a 

21           Veterans Defense Program, which you heard 

22           about yesterday, many of you, from our deputy 

23           director, Roy Diehl.  

24                  So the key issue I wanted to bring up 


                                                                   574

 1           with you is your support and funding for the 

 2           state defenders association's ongoing work, 

 3           as well as in the current state fiscal year.  

 4           So we are asking the Legislature, both the 

 5           Senate and the Assembly, to add an additional 

 6           $1,059,000 to NYSDA's budget in the upcoming 

 7           state fiscal year because the Executive in 

 8           the proposed budget, as has happened in the 

 9           past many years, has proposed half of the 

10           money that we need in order to maintain our 

11           base operations.

12                  So we are also asking for -- to make 

13           sure that we receive a reappropriation for 

14           the million-fifty-nine-thousand legislative 

15           add from last year, which has not been put to 

16           contract and we have not been able to seek 

17           reimbursement for.  I know we're in the same 

18           situation as many others, and appreciate your 

19           support with regard to that.

20                  As you heard from Bill Leahy earlier 

21           today, the director of the Indigent Legal 

22           Services Office, NYSDA's work is critical to 

23           public defense and improving the quality of 

24           representation.  In the past year we've taken 


                                                                   575

 1           responsibility to educate and train defenders 

 2           on the existing laws as well as many new laws 

 3           which we are grateful to the Legislature for 

 4           passing, including bail, discovery, speedy 

 5           trial reform, Domestic Violence Survivors' 

 6           Justice Act, the Driver's License Suspension 

 7           Reform Act, Raise the Age.  All of those 

 8           things we provide training on.

 9                  We also run a case management system 

10           that's similar to NYPTI's, which is in 

11           91 sites in 53 counties, and we're expanding 

12           that to help with the discovery process.  

13                  And also, for Family Court, we support 

14           the ILS request for 5 million additional 

15           dollars, because families, particularly Black 

16           and brown families, are disproportionately 

17           involved in our family regulatory system and 

18           they really need quality representation, and 

19           the state really needs to step up in that 

20           regard.

21                  We also support the Indigent Parolee 

22           Program appropriation of $600,000 and a 

23           reappropriation of that funding.

24                  Thank you so much for your time, and I 


                                                                   576

 1           look forward to speaking further on these 

 2           issues.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 4                  Next is Laurette Mulry, Chief 

 5           Defenders Association of New York.

 6                  MS. MULRY:  Thank you and good 

 7           evening.  As you said, my name is Laurette 

 8           Mulry.  I'm the president of the chief 

 9           defenders association of New York, which is 

10           an association of public defenders and chiefs 

11           of Legal Aid Societies and assigned counsel 

12           plans across New York State.  Collectively we 

13           oversee programs that provide the mandated 

14           service of indigent criminal and family 

15           defense in over 300,000 cases annually.

16                  I would like to thank Senator Krueger 

17           and Assemblymember Weinstein and this 

18           venerable Legislature for the opportunity to 

19           present on the limited topic of the Public 

20           Protection Article VII bill Part J, which 

21           allows for the expansion of electronic court 

22           appearances.  

23                  On behalf of the public defense 

24           community, I would like to state 


                                                                   577

 1           unequivocally our unified opposition to 

 2           virtual appearances at critical stages of 

 3           court proceedings, most notably at first 

 4           court appearance or the arraignment stage.

 5                  When New York paused back in March due 

 6           to the COVID crisis, our court system never 

 7           faltered and continued operations in a 

 8           virtual format.  And we understood this and 

 9           were grateful for it, because it protected 

10           public health and safety and continues to do 

11           so to this day.

12                  However, once the exigency of this 

13           pandemic subsides, in-person arraignments 

14           must be restored to our hallowed court system 

15           to assure due process, to allow public access 

16           to the courts, and to prevent further racial 

17           and digital divide within our justice system.  

18           Virtual arraignments deprive the accused of 

19           effective assistance of counsel, which of 

20           course is predicated upon building trust with 

21           our clients, which is very difficult to do on 

22           a computer screen.  

23                  Furthermore, due process would require 

24           that a person being held before a court to 


                                                                   578

 1           answer charges should actually have the right 

 2           to be present in court, right, for a judge to 

 3           look them in the eye to be able to assess 

 4           their credibility, demeanor and humanity.  

 5           Indeed, New York State has already made a 

 6           commitment to, and I quote, ensuring that 

 7           each criminal defendant is represented by 

 8           counsel in person at his or her arraignment.  

 9           This is language that comes directly from the 

10           Hurrell-Harring settlement agreement to which 

11           New York State and five counties are parties.

12                  This commitment was further extended 

13           to the entire state by virtue of the 

14           Executive Law in 2017.  Therefore, in 

15           New York, client and counsel are legally 

16           mandated to appear in person at the 

17           arraignment stage.  

18                  Virtual arraignments produce harsher 

19           results for the accused.  Studies have shown 

20           that bail outcomes of virtual arraignments 

21           were over 50 percent higher than when done in 

22           person.  This may be attributable to the 

23           inherent dehumanization of defendants 

24           appearing in a virtual setting.  


                                                                   579

 1                  Virtual arraignments further broaden 

 2           the justice gap for those who are poor who 

 3           lack resources like computers or smartphones 

 4           or wifi.  This digital divide threatens 

 5           access to justice and may disproportionately 

 6           affect communities of color, further 

 7           perpetuating a racial divide in our court 

 8           system as well.

 9                  Virtual arraignments are less 

10           efficient.  The ability to speak to clients 

11           is limited, the processing of paperwork is 

12           hampered, and definitely technology issues 

13           abound.  Each case takes much longer, and 

14           arraignment calendars often go well into the 

15           early morning hours in many places.  

16                  Furthermore, public access to the 

17           court is denied.  Family members and friends 

18           who ordinarily could vouch for our 

19           clients and assure a contact, supervision or 

20           place to live in the community are not 

21           present.

22                  Virtual arraignments have come at a 

23           huge cost for our clients in terms of their 

24           constitutional rights.  The true majesty of 


                                                                   580

 1           our court system, which preserves these 

 2           rights and should do so equally for all, must 

 3           return to in-person arraignments in 

 4           post-pandemic New York, and we respectfully 

 5           ask for your assistance in this matter going 

 6           forward.

 7                  Thank you for the opportunity to 

 8           speak.  Sorry I went over.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

10                  Everybody's doing very well at this 

11           time frame.  It's okay.

12                  Next we have Audrey Sample, Students 

13           Demand Action.

14                  MS. SAMPLE:  Hello.  Thank you for 

15           having me today.

16                  My name is Audrey Sample, and I am the 

17           founder and group lead for Students Demand 

18           Action Rochester.  I joined the movement to 

19           end gun violence as a teenager, shortly after 

20           my beloved, medically fragile sister passed 

21           away at home, surrounded by family.  

22                  In the aftermath of her death from the 

23           flu, well-meaning friends told me, "There is 

24           no worse way to lose a child."  These remarks 


                                                                   581

 1           always struck me as inaccurate, because I 

 2           know there are families who lose children 

 3           without a peaceful goodbye.  

 4                  Grief connects you with everyone who 

 5           has ever lost someone.  I know the hollowness 

 6           of waking up each morning knowing the person 

 7           you love most in this world is dead -- and 

 8           yet I cannot imagine how much more 

 9           complicated my relationship with grief would 

10           be if my sister's death could have been 

11           prevented by greater access to community 

12           resources or sensible legislation.  

13                  I urge you to include S1049, the 

14           Community Violence Intervention and 

15           Prevention Act, in the budget.  I have a 

16           responsibility to help prevent other young 

17           people from knowing this hollowness, and you, 

18           as a legislature, do too.

19                  Despite some of the strongest gun laws 

20           in the country -- which have had a 

21           significant impact -- New York still 

22           struggles with gun violence.  In New York, on 

23           average, 370 people die by firearm homicide 

24           and 1,522 people are wounded by gun assault 


                                                                   582

 1           or shooting by police.  

 2                  We need investment in community-led 

 3           safety initiatives.  If we want to end gun 

 4           violence, we need access to resources that 

 5           are not dependent on a survivor's level of 

 6           comfort with police.  Currently, victims who 

 7           report to the police receive services at 

 8           higher rates.  From 2000 to 2009, 14 percent 

 9           of victims who reported to the police 

10           received services, while only 4 percent of 

11           victims who did not report received services. 

12                  Violence intervention programs 

13           successfully reduce violence by implementing 

14           alternative public safety measures that are 

15           locally driven, informed by data, and often 

16           don't require police involvement.  

17                  The Federal Victims of Crime Act 

18           funding has been underutilized in supporting 

19           gun violence survivors.  S1049 allows 

20           New York to address its gun violence epidemic 

21           via trauma and community-informed programs.  

22                  We must act now to prevent gun 

23           violence.  We owe this to survivors; we owe 

24           this to New Yorkers.  


                                                                   583

 1                  Thank you, and please let me know if 

 2           you have any questions.  

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 4           much.  I'm sorry for your family's loss.  

 5                  Regina Ritcey, New York State Dispute 

 6           Resolution Association.

 7                  MS. RITCEY:  Thank you.  

 8                  Good evening, Madam Chair and 

 9           honorable members of the committee.  Thank 

10           you for the opportunity to be with you here 

11           this evening.  

12                  My name is Regina Ritcey.  I'm the 

13           executive director of the New York State 

14           Dispute Resolution Association, and I'm here 

15           this evening on behalf of NYSDRA, the New 

16           York State Dispute Resolution Association, 

17           and the statewide network of Community 

18           Dispute Resolution Centers, or CDRCs.  CDRCs 

19           help people address and resolve conflict in 

20           their lives, improving lives and 

21           strengthening communities.  

22                  The CDRCs are actually a network of 

23           20 independent nonprofit organizations which 

24           provide remediation and related dispute 


                                                                   584

 1           resolution services.  The 20 independent CDRC 

 2           centers serve every one of New York State's 

 3           62 counties.  

 4                  Funded in part by OCA, the Office of 

 5           Court Administration, independent funding, 

 6           contracts and grants, CDRCs match OCA funding 

 7           nearly dollar for dollar through grants, 

 8           contracts and other fee-based services.  

 9                  The New York State Dispute Resolution 

10           Association is the membership association of 

11           the CDRCs and their mediators.  We support 

12           the work that they do.  The centers actually 

13           are staffed by a dedicated group of staff 

14           members.  The work itself, the mediation 

15           work, is primarily, though, done by pro bono 

16           volunteers, community members who are 

17           professionally trained to provide mediation 

18           and other services.  Nearly all of the work 

19           that they do is provided at no charge to the 

20           participants.  

21                  Conflict in our lives is not new, but 

22           as New Yorkers struggle to adjust to the 

23           disruptions of COVID, conflict has been 

24           exacerbated and housing conflicts, family 


                                                                   585

 1           conflicts, conflicts with neighbors and any 

 2           part of our society have really just been 

 3           exacerbated.  And the need for conflict 

 4           resolution has just grown.  

 5                  The CDRCs offer an 

 6           effective alternative to the courts and are 

 7           actually an important part of the Chief 

 8           Judge's Excellence Initiative.  The CDRCs 

 9           work in concert with the courts to handle 

10           cases that are referred out and also receive 

11           self-referrals and referrals from other 

12           organizations.  They handle housing, family 

13           matters, and many other situations where 

14           conflict is disruptive and impacts people's 

15           lives.  

16                  The CDRCs have been hard-hit by cuts 

17           in 2011, and the funding since that time was 

18           never fully restored.  I'm here today to ask 

19           you to support the funding for the centers.  

20           I stand with the civil legal services in 

21           asking to have the 10 percent recent cuts 

22           restored, and also to help prevent any 

23           further cuts.  

24                  We're also asking for the preservation 


                                                                   586

 1           of the $10 million in the DCJS Aid to 

 2           Localities budget.  

 3                  By funding the effective dispute 

 4           resolution services of the CDRCs, you can 

 5           have a positive impact on the lives of 

 6           New Yorkers.  Thank you.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 8                  Do I see any hands up?  I do.  I see 

 9           Jeremy Cooney from the Senate's hand up.

10                  Hello, Jeremy.

11                  SENATOR COONEY:   Hello, Madam Chair.  

12           It's good to see you.  It's getting darker 

13           outside, but we're all still here, and I'm 

14           glad we are.  

15                  I want to direct my question to 

16           Ms. Sample from Students Demand Action.  

17           Audrey, it's great to see you here, and thank 

18           you for hanging around with us tonight.  I'm 

19           so grateful for the work that you do in 

20           Greater Rochester specifically around 

21           communities of color.  I've seen you out 

22           doing that work over the past several years. 

23                  You know as much as I do that 

24           Rochester still struggles with gun violence.  


                                                                   587

 1           We had a quadruple shooting last week in my 

 2           district on Lyell Avenue.  This continues to 

 3           be an issue for us, and we're very concerned 

 4           about it.  But I want to direct my question 

 5           really about the healing that you noted 

 6           before, specifically for survivors of gun 

 7           violence.  

 8                  Where are we missing the mark as a 

 9           state?  Where could we do better, whether 

10           it's a program that is happening in other 

11           parts of the country that Students Demand 

12           knows -- but where could we be offering more 

13           resources to survivors of gun violence who 

14           are dealing with the trauma that we're seeing 

15           right in our hometown of Rochester?  

16                  Thank you.

17                  MS. SAMPLE:  Thank you, 

18           Senator Cooney.  

19                  Well, as I noted before, I feel really 

20           passionately that in New York as a whole, but 

21           in our cities specifically, where so many 

22           Black and brown people do not feel safe with 

23           the police -- and, you know, white people as 

24           well -- that we need resources that don't 


                                                                   588

 1           rely on them contacting law enforcement if 

 2           that's something that they don't feel 

 3           comfortable with.  

 4                  And so one of the most popular 

 5           violence intervention program models is 

 6           called Street Outreach, which provides both 

 7           immediate crisis response services and 

 8           long-term stabilization support to 

 9           individuals and communities affected by gun  

10           violence.  A 2017 evaluation of a Street 

11           Outreach model known as Cure Violence 

12           implemented in the South Bronx found that its 

13           street outreach efforts were associated with 

14           a 37 percent decline in gun violence injuries 

15           and a 63 percent decline in shooting 

16           victimizations, while a similar neighborhood 

17           without such a program did not experience the 

18           same rates of reduction.

19                  So I think that, you know, we really 

20           need innovative solutions and we need 

21           creativity and people with, you know, 

22           compassionate hearts and, again, creative 

23           minds to come to the table on this.  And I'm 

24           happy that you have continued -- that you 


                                                                   589

 1           fought with us from the beginning and then 

 2           continue to fight with us, and I really hope 

 3           that the Legislature can include this in the 

 4           budget.

 5                  SENATOR COONEY:   I thank you.  And 

 6           with compassion and creativity, we can 

 7           accomplish a lot.  And I know that Students 

 8           Demand Action will do just that.  

 9                  So thank you for all the work that 

10           you're doing.

11                  Thank you.  I yield my time.  

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

13                  Assembly.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

15           Assemblyman Ra.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, Chair.  

17                  Good to see you, Mr. Jordan.  I just 

18           had a quick question for you.

19                  So I had asked DCJS earlier today 

20           about the $40 million that was appropriated 

21           last year for the Discovery Compensation 

22           Fund, and he did tell me that I guess some -- 

23           there was some amount, I guess 1.75 million 

24           that had been spent on this DEMS system.  I 


                                                                   590

 1           was just wondering if you are aware of any 

 2           funding going out the door, you know, 

 3           directly to local DA's departments.

 4                  WASHINGTON COUNTY DA JORDAN:  So late 

 5           yesterday afternoon we actually received an 

 6           email from DCJS.  And what they've done is 

 7           they've structured the award by -- I think 

 8           they used some formula of arraignments and 

 9           maybe county size.  But it's not exclusively 

10           for discovery, and it's not exclusively for 

11           DA offices.  

12                  So what they've done is it looks like 

13           they've bundled together pretrial services 

14           so -- to address release under supervision or 

15           release with conditions, to fund that, also 

16           providing funding for the sheriff's 

17           department, local PDs, and then the 

18           DA offices.

19                  My understanding, although it's very 

20           early, but in terms of trying to understand 

21           how it's going to get rolled out, it looks 

22           like in counties with county executives the 

23           notice may have gone to the county executive.  

24           So that is -- you know, it could create 


                                                                   591

 1           "where is the money going to go, how is it 

 2           going to be used."

 3                  So certainly some is better than none, 

 4           as we often tell our kids.  But I think it's 

 5           a -- if it's a one-shot, it might -- it helps 

 6           address some of the costs that our county has 

 7           incurred.  But certainly the amount that we 

 8           were seeing that we expect if we're able to 

 9           complete all of the grant application process 

10           would be about what probably is necessary 

11           each year going forward.  

12                  So hopefully it's not a one-time deal.  

13           And it wasn't just for discovery.  And it 

14           goes far beyond just DA offices.  So it will 

15           be interesting to see how all that works out.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.

17                  WASHINGTON COUNTY DA JORDAN:  Good to 

18           see you as well, Assemblyman.

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

21                  Back to the Senate.  

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Actually, we 

23           thought we had a Senator, but we lost them.  

24           So I'll give it right back to the Assembly.


                                                                   592

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Okay.  Then we 

 2           have Assemblyman Lawler, I believe is the 

 3           last member we have.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Thank you, 

 5           Chairwoman.  

 6                  Tony, it's good to see you.  I'm sure 

 7           you --

 8                  WASHINGTON COUNTY DA JORDAN:  -- 

 9           {inaudible} on this side.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  That's right.  

11           I'm sure you miss these budget hearings.

12                  So I just wanted to ask quickly -- I 

13           know in your comments you had mentioned 

14           really about the cost for some of these 

15           criminal justice reforms that came down on 

16           the district attorneys', you know, offices.  

17                  So I just want to give you another 

18           moment to expand on some of the unfunded 

19           mandates as part of these criminal justice 

20           reforms and the need for funding in the state 

21           budget.  So that's one.  

22                  And then, second, I just wanted to get 

23           your comment with respect to the legalization 

24           of recreational use of marijuana.  Of all the 


                                                                   593

 1           states that have so far legalized marijuana, 

 2           there's only one state that has capped the 

 3           potency of marijuana, and that's the State of 

 4           Vermont.  

 5                  So I was just curious if you had a 

 6           comment with respect to whether or not, as 

 7           New York State looks to pass the legalization 

 8           of marijuana, whether or not you think there 

 9           should be a cap on the potency of marijuana.

10                  WASHINGTON COUNTY DA JORDAN:  Sure.  I 

11           think with funding, I think there -- it's a 

12           noble effort and it was an important change 

13           in terms of really rearranging completely how 

14           discovery happens in criminal cases.  

15                  But to make sure it actually works and 

16           works well, I think the state should look at 

17           funding for all affected agencies.  So a lot 

18           of the funding has focused on the defense 

19           side, which is important, but I guess they 

20           should also focus on our ability to turn that 

21           discovery around and get it reviewed.  And 

22           it's only -- body-worn cameras is going to 

23           have a significant impact on those costs.  

24           With --


                                                                   594

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Especially on the 

 2           IT side of it.

 3                  WASHINGTON COUNTY DA JORDAN:  Well, in 

 4           body time.  You have to review the 

 5           body-camera footage because you have to make 

 6           sure there's nothing on there that shouldn't 

 7           be made public.  You know, you could have 

 8           kids in compromising situations, Social 

 9           Security numbers.  You know, it's not even 

10           related to the case.  

11                  So there -- and you can't substitute 

12           reviewing body camera footage with a 

13           computer.  And as I speak, if I were the 

14           Public Defenders Association, they're saying 

15           the same thing, right, because their people 

16           have to review this footage now.  So it goes 

17           both ways.

18                  With marijuana, I would really 

19           encourage -- we had a great presentation from 

20           folks from Colorado, and they talked about 

21           many of their experiences.  And I think those 

22           can be very instructive.  Potency certainly 

23           would be a concern as -- just as a person.  

24           But it's also the deliverables, how is it 


                                                                   595

 1           going to be deliverable.  Is it edibles, is 

 2           it candies?  It's things that we've often 

 3           struggled with in the cigarette world, right, 

 4           with not making it attractive to kids.  

 5                  So I think those would be some of the 

 6           same public health and safety concerns we 

 7           would have.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  And on those 

 9           edibles, the potency is about 98 percent.  So 

10           that's -- that's why I asked specifically 

11           about capping the potency.

12                  Thank you.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Anyone else?

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  No, we have no 

15           one else, Senator.  

16                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  All right.  

17                  I just have to say that Assemblymember 

18           Lawler and I have to sit down separately and 

19           discuss my marijuana bill, because I think 

20           he's getting a bunch of the issues slightly 

21           off.  But we're not going to do that at 

22           tonight's panel.  But let's make a date to 

23           talk about this.  Thank you.  

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN LAWLER:  Happily, Liz.  


                                                                   596

 1           Happily.  

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 3                  All right, the next panel, the Osborne 

 4           Association, Elizabeth Gaynes; the Vera 

 5           Institute of Justice, Shayna Kessler; the 

 6           Katal Center for Equity, Health and Justice, 

 7           Yonah Zeitz; and Moms Demand Action for Gun 

 8           Sense in America, Barry Graubart.  

 9                  And everybody here?  Let's start with 

10           the Osborne Association.

11                  MS. GAYNES:  Hi.  Thanks for having 

12           me.  I'm Liz Gaynes, from Osborne.  We are a 

13           90-year-old nonprofit that works in 

14           30 prisons, Rikers Island jails, New York 

15           City, Newburgh and Buffalo.  

16                  And I want to be in that conversation 

17           about cannabis that you guys are going to 

18           have.  And hold on to your idea and don't 

19           compromise.  It's not just about where the 

20           money goes, it's also making sure that it's 

21           not Big Pharma and Big Cannabis that takes 

22           over but that our communities get the 

23           licenses to produce, process and sell.

24                  But that's really not why I came.


                                                                   597

 1                  It's been a brutal year.  The 

 2           nonprofit sector has really stepped up.  And 

 3           I know that it's easy to thank police for 

 4           their service and sacrifice, but I'd like to 

 5           also thank the front-line people in public 

 6           safety who have been doing this work.  It's 

 7           mostly -- it's not been done with state 

 8           money.  The CEO raised money for a private 

 9           stimulus package for people coming home.  We 

10           raise thousands of dollars from private 

11           donations to give people coming home 

12           smartphones and reentry kits so that they 

13           could come home in this time of COVID.  

14                  We've even had to raise private money 

15           to do our work with policing.  We're working 

16           with the Buffalo Police Department and NYPD 

17           on training specifically around policies and 

18           protocols of what happens when you arrest a 

19           parent in front of a child.

20                  With all the talk about police 

21           training, it's a great idea, but the issue is 

22           police-community relations.  And the training 

23           needs to include, as Buffalo and NYPD have 

24           included us, members of the community to be 


                                                                   598

 1           part of that training.

 2                  Obviously the Rochester Police need 

 3           some work responding to children and people 

 4           with mental illness.  But it's broader than 

 5           that.  And so your investment in police 

 6           training, including the community, will 

 7           contribute to raise equity as well.

 8                  Look, the DOCCS population has gone 

 9           down dramatically, but one group that's 

10           persistently and sadly stuck because of the 

11           persistent and perpetual punishment of people 

12           sentenced for violent offenses decades ago.  

13           Parole reforms are on your agenda, and I hope 

14           we get them this year.  Elder parole, fair 

15           and timely parole bills are critical to 

16           offering opportunity for long-term 

17           incarcerated individuals.  They have a 

18           recidivism rate that's about zero.  They 

19           often committed their crimes as adolescents.  

20           Yet they're excluded from the early release 

21           DOCCS executive order.  They're excluded from 

22           work release.  They're excluded from 

23           educational release, although they are highly 

24           represented in the prison college group.  And 


                                                                   599

 1           the community would benefit from them.  I 

 2           hire as many as I can.  

 3                  I hope you'll pass legislation for 

 4           parole reforms, prison reforms, sentencing 

 5           reforms and other campaigns.  We're part of 

 6           parole justice, justice roadmap, and HALT.  

 7                  We also have some budget requests we 

 8           don't have time for -- Senator Kennedy has 

 9           funded our work in Buffalo, and our elder 

10           parole reentry program for Adirondack and the 

11           8,000 older adults who are incarcerated.

12                  I'm out of time, but not out of 

13           energy.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  All right.  Thank 

15           you.

16                  Our next testifier, Vera Institute of 

17           Justice.

18                  MS. KESSLER:  Thank you very much.  

19           Good evening.  Thank you so much for your 

20           time.  

21                  My name is Shayna Kessler.  I'm a 

22           senior planner with the Vera Institute of 

23           Justice.  I'm pleased to testify today in 

24           support of an increased commitment to the 


                                                                   600

 1           Liberty Defense Project, or LDP, which funds 

 2           the New York Immigrant Family Unity Project, 

 3           or NYIFUP.  

 4                  Governor Cuomo included $10 million in 

 5           his fiscal year '22 Executive Budget for LDP, 

 6           and today I'm asking you to support this 

 7           critically important work with an additional 

 8           $5.3 million investment, for a total of $15.3 

 9           million in FY '22.  This would support a 

10           $6.5 million allocation to NYIFUP.

11                  The Vera Institute leads national 

12           efforts to advance universal representation 

13           so that everyone at risk of deportation can 

14           have access to a lawyer.  In spite of 

15           extremely high stakes, immigrants are not 

16           guaranteed a lawyer if they can't afford to 

17           hire one.  With New York's investment, 

18           though, NYIFUP became the country's first and 

19           only statewide universal representation 

20           system for detained immigrants, providing a 

21           beacon of hope for those torn from their 

22           homes by immigration enforcement.

23                  This investment in NYIFUP brings 

24           critical benefits to our state, especially 


                                                                   601

 1           during the pandemic.  One in three New York 

 2           children has an immigrant parent, and more 

 3           than one-quarter of the state's workforce is 

 4           foreign-born.  During the pandemic, 

 5           immigrants are responsible for work that 

 6           sustains our economy and safeguards public 

 7           health.  

 8                  With immigrants three and a half times 

 9           more likely to obtain release from detention 

10           with a lawyer, and 10 times more likely to 

11           prove their right to remain in the United 

12           States, NYIFUP has reunited families, 

13           promoted economic stability, and maintained 

14           confidence that New York stands with 

15           immigrants in this difficult time.

16                  While the Biden administration is 

17           making promising changes reversing the brutal 

18           anti-immigrant harm of the past four years, 

19           paving the way forward will only be possible 

20           with legal advocacy.  NYIFUP presents a 

21           powerful example to Washington of an 

22           immigration policy that centers human 

23           dignity.

24                  It is also critical to addressing 


                                                                   602

 1           systemic racial injustice by interrupting the 

 2           arrest to deportation pipeline that leads to 

 3           racial profiling and the criminalization of 

 4           communities of color.  More than 40 

 5           jurisdictions have followed New York's lead 

 6           by funding deportation defense.  They 

 7           recognize that investing in representation 

 8           for immigrants safeguards health and 

 9           stability during this challenging time.

10                  There's also overwhelming public 

11           support for the work.  A poll found that 

12           93 percent of New Yorkers support 

13           government-funded lawyers for people in 

14           immigration court.  The $10 million for LDP 

15           and in the Governor's budget is a welcome 

16           start, but to keep the program strong we urge 

17           the Senate and Assembly to fund LDP at 

18           $15.3 million, which would enable a 

19           $6.5 million allocation to NYIFUP.

20                  Thank you very much for your time.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

22           much.  

23                  Katal Center for Equity, Health and 

24           Justice.


                                                                   603

 1                  MR. ZEITZ:  Yes, good evening.  And 

 2           thank you, Senator Krueger and 

 3           Assemblymember Weinstein for inviting our 

 4           testimony this evening.  

 5                  My name is Yonah Zeitz, and I'm the 

 6           policy coordinator at the Katal Center for 

 7           Equity, Health and Justice.  And we're a 

 8           community-based organization that focuses on 

 9           ending mass incarceration and building 

10           community power.  

11                  And for tonight's testimony I will be 

12           talking about the parole system and in 

13           particular the problem of reincarcerating 

14           people for technical violations of parole.  

15                  This issue is unjust, and it 

16           exacerbates racial inequity within our 

17           justice system, and it provides no 

18           commensurate gains to public safety.  And in 

19           particular for this hearing, it comes at an 

20           immense fiscal cost.  

21                  And so the Katal Center, along with 

22           the Less Is More Campaign, has been working 

23           to pass the Less Is More Act, which would 

24           address this issue and should be included in 


                                                                   604

 1           this year's budget.  

 2                  And so what exactly is a technical 

 3           parole violation?  It's anything from missing 

 4           an appointment with a parole officer to 

 5           failing an alcohol or drug test.  And so 

 6           these are not new criminal offenses, but yet 

 7           New York reincarcerates more people for these 

 8           type of noncriminal technical violations of 

 9           parole than any other state in the nation.  

10           This is a failure in terms of our public 

11           policy.  

12                  And so right now there are currently 

13           5,000 New Yorkers that are incarcerated in 

14           jails and prisons for these type of 

15           noncriminal technical parole violations.  And 

16           so that means about 4,000 people in state 

17           prisons are incarcerated for these 

18           violations, and that makes up about 

19           12 percent of the entire prison population 

20           and about one-third of all new admissions to 

21           state prisons.  And so this is one of the 

22           main driving forces of mass incarceration in 

23           the state.  

24                  And the racial disparities are quite 


                                                                   605

 1           stark.  Black and Latino people are 

 2           incarcerated at much higher rates for these 

 3           technical violations than white people.

 4                  And along with, you know, the human 

 5           and racial aspect of this bill, it also comes 

 6           at an immense fiscal cost.  New York is -- we 

 7           spend over $600 million annually at the jail 

 8           and prison level, incarcerating people for 

 9           noncriminal technical violations of parole.  

10                  And so at the state level the 

11           nonpartisan Council on State Governments 

12           issued a report stating that New York State 

13           spends about $369 million annually 

14           incarcerating people at the state prison 

15           level for technical violations of parole.  

16                  And then at the county level, the 

17           counties are responsible for the full costs 

18           of incarcerating people in the jails as 

19           they're awaiting alleged violations.  And so 

20           in New York City alone, that was about 

21           $300 million a year.  

22                  And so the Less Is More Act would fix 

23           this issue.  And so the bill is currently in 

24           the New York Legislature and it's being 


                                                                   606

 1           sponsored by Senator Brian Benjamin, and it 

 2           actually just moved out of the Senate Crimes, 

 3           Crime Victims and Corrections Committee.  So 

 4           thank you, Senator Salazar, for helping make 

 5           that happen.  And so we're hoping that this 

 6           bill can be included in the budget.

 7                  And also it's worth noting that we 

 8           have broad support for this bill.  So there 

 9           are over 230 groups, faith leaders and other 

10           organizations, that support this bill, along 

11           with some broad support from public safety 

12           officials.  So we have over seven DAs signed 

13           on in support of this bill.  We have county 

14           sheriffs.  We also have some former probation 

15           and parole officers that support this bill.  

16                  And so let's get -- we want to get 

17           this done in this budget year.  And so thank 

18           you for the time, and I'd be happy to answer 

19           any questions.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

21                  And our last speaker for this panel, 

22           Barry Graubart from Moms Demand Action for 

23           Gun Sense in America.

24                  MR. GRAUBART:  Hi, my name is Barry 


                                                                   607

 1           Graubart, and I'm the deputy chapter leader 

 2           for the New York Chapter for Moms Demand 

 3           Action for Gun Sense in America.  

 4                  In that role, I work with numerous 

 5           survivors of gun violence from across the 

 6           state on a daily basis.  So thank you, 

 7           Chairs Krueger and Weinstein, for inviting us 

 8           to testify on this critical issue.  

 9                  And I'm urging you today to include 

10           Bill S1049, Senator Myrie's Community 

11           Violence Intervention Program Act, in the 

12           budget.  We know that in New York, gun 

13           homicides disproportionately impact Black and 

14           brown families living in neighborhoods shaped 

15           by long-term underinvestment.  Adequate 

16           funding is critical to providing these key 

17           services to victims of gun violence.  

18                  A few things that we do know about 

19           access to these victims services.  So on 

20           average, fewer than one in ten victims of 

21           serious violent crimes receive assistance 

22           from a victims services agency.  Victims of 

23           serious intimate partner violence are three 

24           times more likely than other victims of 


                                                                   608

 1           serious crimes to receive those services.  

 2           And in our Black and brown communities, we 

 3           know that crime victims are less likely to 

 4           report their crimes to the police, and as a 

 5           result we know that a large percentage of 

 6           victims of serious crimes in these 

 7           neighborhoods are just not receiving the 

 8           services they require.

 9                  Instead, a patchwork of small 

10           community-based organizations try to fill the 

11           gaps where they can, but clearly it's not 

12           enough.

13                  What's the cost to this failure?  

14           Well, you know, the data shows us that using 

15           VOCA funds to resource community-based 

16           services to gun violence victims allows us to 

17           interrupt these cycles of violence.  And 

18           funding community-based organizations is the 

19           best way to increase access to these 

20           services.  

21                  Community-based organizations are 

22           small, they're often founded by a gun 

23           violence survivor, and they're staffed by 

24           volunteers.  These organizations are amazing, 


                                                                   609

 1           but they operate on shoestring budgets and 

 2           they really could increase their service 

 3           provision and their impact through increased 

 4           funding.

 5                  So in conclusion, I just want to say 

 6           VOCA victim assistance grants, they're a 

 7           plentiful and largely untapped funding source 

 8           for gun violence victims services like 

 9           hospital-based violence intervention, street 

10           outreach programs, trauma recovery centers, 

11           and more.  States, cities and community-based 

12           organizations have a unique opportunity to 

13           drive VOCA victim assistance funding to these 

14           and other gun violence victims services.  

15           New York has struggled to utilize these funds 

16           due to unnecessary constraints which make it 

17           harder for these small organizations to 

18           participate.

19                  The CVIP bill, S1049, is really an 

20           important step toward removing those 

21           constraints and delivering on the vision for 

22           gun violence prevention that I think we all 

23           strive for.

24                  In my last 20 seconds, I want to just 


                                                                   610

 1           thank -- I know Senator Hoylman is in the 

 2           room.  I want to thank Senator Hoylman and 

 3           all of the Senate for passing two critical 

 4           bills today on banning ghost guns, S13 and 

 5           S14.  Chuck Lavine is also -- we'll get to 

 6           the Assembly -- and has been a big -- like 

 7           both of those bills are named for gun 

 8           violence survivors, to honor them, who I know 

 9           very well.  

10                  So thank you all.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

12           much.  

13                  Any hands up?  Then we're going to 

14           thank you all -- oh, sorry, Helene.  

15                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  No, just -- we 

16           don't have anyone.

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Oh, okay.  I 

18           didn't want to cut you off.  

19                  And really it's just the hour that is 

20           keeping us all from following through with 

21           you tonight.  But thank you very much for 

22           your testimony and for being with us here 

23           tonight.

24                  All right, our next panel, which is 


                                                                   611

 1           actually our last panel for this evening, 

 2           Journey's End Refugee Services, Sarah 

 3           Bertozzi; UnLocal, Terry Lawson; and 

 4           Center for Judicial Accountability, 

 5           Elena Sassower.  

 6                  Starting with Sarah.  Are you here, 

 7           Sarah?  Does any staff see whether she 

 8           checked in?  

 9                  THE MODERATOR:  Oh, she's here.

10                  MS. BERTOZZI:  Can you hear me?

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Oh, there you 

12           are.  Now we can hear you.  Hi there.

13                  MS. BERTOZZI:  Sorry about that.  Hi, 

14           thank you.  Good evening.  

15                  My name is Sarah Bertozzi, and I'm the 

16           managing attorney of the Immigration Legal 

17           Services Program at Journey's End Refugee 

18           Services.  And my testimony also supports 

19           funding for immigration legal services in the 

20           New York State budget.  

21                  Our legal department maintains offices 

22           in Buffalo, Rochester and Binghamton, where 

23           we provide immigration legal services, access 

24           to which is one of the most critical needs of 


                                                                   612

 1           immigrants in New York State.

 2                  Immigrants of all statuses require 

 3           legal assistance on their immigration 

 4           matters, including refugees, asylees, asylum 

 5           seekers, DACA recipients, green card holders, 

 6           and even naturalized U.S. citizens.  And 

 7           their ability to access and navigate our 

 8           federal immigration system is also dependent 

 9           on immigration attorneys that represent them 

10           before USCIS, which is U.S. Citizenship and 

11           Immigration Services, and immigration court.  

12                  Specifically, immigration attorneys 

13           fight civil detention and deportation for 

14           asylum seekers seeking safety in the U.S.  

15           They apply for green cards and naturalization 

16           to secure and advance immigration status.  

17           They obtain work authorization to seek lawful 

18           and meaningful employment.  And they petition 

19           to reunite families that have been separated 

20           by violence, conflict and war.

21                  These needs are great and are critical 

22           to a safe, healthy, productive and meaningful 

23           adjustment to life in the U.S.  However, due 

24           to a lack of resources, particularly in 


                                                                   613

 1           underserved areas like upstate New York, 

 2           there are not enough immigration legal 

 3           service providers to adequately meet these 

 4           needs.  

 5                  And immigration cases are primarily 

 6           successful with the representation of an 

 7           attorney who can assist in the navigation of 

 8           this turbulent field of law.  Seventy-eight 

 9           percent of immigrants with lawyers win their 

10           cases, versus 15 percent who do not have 

11           legal help.  And consequences of denied cases 

12           are severe.  They can include prolonged 

13           family separation, even deportation to 

14           dangerous countries.

15                  In response to these significant 

16           challenges, New York State has made a 

17           substantial investment in immigration legal 

18           services, in 2012 with the creation of the 

19           Office for New Americans, or ONA, and in 2018 

20           with the launch of the Liberty Defense 

21           Project, or LDP.  ONA and LDP provide funding 

22           for nonprofit immigration legal service 

23           providers to meet these needs, and our legal 

24           department could not operate without this 


                                                                   614

 1           funding.  

 2                  However, each of our offices maintains 

 3           a waitlist.  In Western New York we're the 

 4           only refugee resettlement agency that has 

 5           attorneys working on these cases.  And in the 

 6           Southern Tier and Finger Lakes regions, 

 7           access to representation on immigration legal 

 8           cases is a rare opportunity.

 9                  So consequently we are advocating for 

10           the maintenance and expansion of ONA and LDP 

11           funding in the New York State budget.  We are 

12           specifically asking for increased funding for 

13           LDP to 15.3 million from its current 

14           10 million, and an increased budget for ONA 

15           to 9.1 million from its current 6.4 million, 

16           maintenance of which will allow us to keep 

17           our commitment to clients with open cases.  

18           And expanded funding allow us to help even 

19           more immigrant New Yorkers.  

20                  Thank you for your time.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

22                  Our next testifier, Terry Lawson, from 

23           UnLocal.

24                  MS. LAWSON:  Thank you for this 


                                                                   615

 1           opportunity to testify at today's hearing.  

 2           My name is Terry Lawson, and I am the new 

 3           executive director of UnLocal, a 

 4           community-centered nonprofit that provides 

 5           direct community education, outreach, and 

 6           legal representation to New York City's 

 7           undocumented immigrant communities.  

 8                  I would like to begin by discussing 

 9           the work of UnLocal in the context of a 

10           recent case of ours that has been in the 

11           news.  

12                  Javier Castillo Maradiaga is a 

13           27-year-old Bronx resident who came here with 

14           his family when he was 7 years old.  He was 

15           referred to UnLocal because we are one of 

16           founding partners of the Rapid Response Legal 

17           Collaborative, which is funded in part by 

18           ONA.  In December 2019, Javier was unlawfully 

19           transferred from NYC Department of 

20           Corrections custody to ICE, in violation of 

21           New York City's Detainer Laws.  

22                  Though Javier's criminal charges were 

23           subsequently dismissed and sealed, he remains 

24           in ICE detention and has been nearly deported 


                                                                   616

 1           three times since President Biden's 

 2           inauguration.  

 3                  To stop Javier's deportation, in the 

 4           span of just two weeks UnLocal has filed two 

 5           requests for a stay of removal, one with ICE 

 6           and one with the Board of Immigration 

 7           Appeals, a motion to reopen his removal 

 8           proceedings, a habeas petition, a motion for 

 9           a preliminary injunction, and a memorandum of 

10           law with the Southern District of New York.  

11           We have held four press conferences, an 

12           online community gathering, and have gathered 

13           over 6000 signatures in a public petition.  

14           We have also engaged with legislators and 

15           elected officials at every level.  

16                  Before coming to UnLocal, Javier's 

17           family spent over $20,000 in private legal 

18           fees to fight their immigration cases.  

19           Javier's mother has told me about how her 

20           family was taken advantage of by unscrupulous 

21           providers and how hard it was for them to 

22           find free, high-quality legal representation. 

23                  Their case came to our attention via 

24           the Rapid Response Legal Collaborative just 


                                                                   617

 1           days before Javier was transferred to 

 2           Louisiana.  

 3                  If the events of the past two weeks 

 4           have taught us anything, they have taught us 

 5           that while the Trump administration is no 

 6           longer in power, this work is far from over. 

 7           Deportation flights are still taking off, and 

 8           UnLocal and immigration advocates across this 

 9           city are working tirelessly alongside 

10           immigrant New Yorkers to ensure that they 

11           remain here with their families.  

12                  Javier is DACA-eligible, his siblings 

13           have DACA, his parents have TPS, and we 

14           continue to work harder than we have before 

15           to provide immigrant New Yorkers like Javier 

16           and his family with free, high-quality legal 

17           services.  

18                  We appreciate the Legislature and 

19           OCA's support of civil legal services.  And 

20           as Javier's case demonstrates, the need for 

21           this funding continues, particularly as 

22           immigrant communities battle the effects of 

23           COVID.  

24                  Thank you so much for this hearing and 


                                                                   618

 1           for outlasting your federal counterparts by 

 2           several hours today.  So thank you so much.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 4           much.  

 5                  And our last testifier for this 

 6           evening, Elena Sassoir -- Sassoher, excuse 

 7           me.  Sassower.  I know how to say it, I'm 

 8           just a little tired, excuse me.  

 9                  Unmute yourself, we can't hear you.  

10           There you go.

11                  MS. SASSOWER:  My name is Elena 

12           Sassower, and I am director and cofounder of 

13           the nonpartisan, nonprofit citizens 

14           organization Center for Judicial 

15           Accountability.  Our website is 

16           www.judgewatch.org.  And from its prominent 

17           center panel entitled "Comparing New York's 

18           Legislature Before and After its Fraudulent 

19           Pay Raise," you can find the evidentiary 

20           substantiation of this testimony.

21                  As you know -- because I've stated it 

22           repeatedly -- our foremost public protection 

23           is the New York State Constitution, which by 

24           Article VII lays out the manner in which the 


                                                                   619

 1           State Budget is to be fashioned and enacted.  

 2           This year, as in past years, the budget is 

 3           off the constitutional rails, and I long ago 

 4           and repeatedly furnished you with proof and, 

 5           in the absence of your response, sued you in 

 6           two citizen taxpayer actions, the second 

 7           encompassing the first, laying out the 

 8           unconstitutionality of the Judiciary Budget, 

 9           the Legislative Budget and the whole of the 

10           Executive Budget, and of the force-of-law 

11           commission scheme by which you gave pay 

12           raises to judges and, as a consequence, to 

13           district attorneys via commission reports 

14           that are false instruments.

15                  You have had no legitimate defense to 

16           either lawsuit, and so your attorney, the 

17           New York State Attorney General, himself a 

18           defendant, corrupted the judicial process 

19           with litigation fraud and was rewarded with 

20           fraudulent decisions.  This also enabled you 

21           to utilize the same force-of-law scheme to 

22           procure your committee-based pay raises for 

23           yourselves, and for the Attorney General, the 

24           Comptroller, the Governor and the Lieutenant 


                                                                   620

 1           Governor, also by a report that is a false 

 2           instrument.

 3                  The foregoing is the subject of 

 4           62 fully documented grand jury public 

 5           corruption complaints against you that I've 

 6           filed with New York's 62 district attorneys, 

 7           including Washington County DA Jordan, who 

 8           has just testified at this hearing.

 9                  In the event you are not knowledgeable 

10           of those 62 complaints, the most important 

11           being the complaint filed with Albany County 

12           DA Soares, all 62 are accessible from CJA's 

13           webpage for my testimony and this Public 

14           Protection Budget Hearing.  That is where you 

15           will also find other relevant complaints such 

16           as against the first witness at this hearing, 

17           Chief Administrative Judge Marks, and 

18           New York's Court of Appeals judges who 

19           certified and approved the Judiciary's 

20           slush-fund budget filed with the Commission 

21           on Judicial Conduct, whose administrator, 

22           Robert Tembeckjian, was your second witness.

23                  I am available to meet with the 

24           Legislature to discuss the foregoing, 


                                                                   621

 1           including the specifics relating to the 

 2           fiscal year 2022 budget, and to testify under 

 3           oath.  Thank you.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 5                  Any questions?  I don't see hands 

 6           raised.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  No questions 

 8           from the Assembly.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay, and no 

10           questions from the Senate.  

11                  So I want to officially call this 

12           hearing over.  

13                  I want to thank you all for 

14           participating throughout the day and evening.  

15           We learned a lot, and we absorbed a lot.  And 

16           again, anyone who's still listening and who 

17           thought, Why am I not there testifying, the 

18           answer is you can still submit testimony and 

19           it will go up online and we can review it in 

20           the context of all of our work on the budget.

21                  So I want to thank my colleague Helene 

22           Weinstein and all my colleagues for making it 

23           through with us today.  

24                  And tomorrow morning at 9:30, we start 


                                                                   622

 1           the Local Government Budget Hearing, am I 

 2           right, Helene?  

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes, correct, 

 4           9:30 we start.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  There you go.  So 

 6           tune in tomorrow:  Same people, different 

 7           topics.  

 8                  Thank you so much.  Get home safe.  

 9                  (Whereupon, at 8:11 p.m., the budget 

10           hearing concluded.)

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