Regular Session - March 31, 1993
1950
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 March 31,1993
10 12:50 p.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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1951
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate
3 will come to order. Senators will please find
4 their seats.
5 If you will please rise with me
6 for the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.
7 (Whereupon, the Senate joined in
8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. )
9 Today, in the absence of clergy,
10 we will bow our heads for a moment of silent
11 prayer.
12 (Whereupon, there was a moment of
13 silence. )
14 The Secretary will begin by
15 reading the Journal.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Gold.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. I just got a
20 call that said that they didn't think the bells
21 are actually ringing in the LOB. If there's a
22 mechanical problem, that I don't know.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes,
1952
1 that has been a problem. We've had it fixed.
2 As a matter of fact, it has been fixed for about
3 an hour. The communication system was broken
4 over on some of the floors, not all of them.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 Secretary will begin by reading the Journal.
8 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
9 Tuesday, March 30. The Senate met pursuant to
10 adjournment. Senator Farley in the chair upon
11 designation of the Temporary President. The
12 Journal of Monday, March 29, was read and
13 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing
15 no objection, the Journal will stand approved as
16 read.
17 The order of business:
18 Presentation of petitions.
19 Messages from the Assembly.
20 Messages from the Governor.
21 Reports of standing committees.
22 Reports of select committees.
23 Communications and reports from
1953
1 state officers.
2 Motions and resolutions.
3 We have a substitution. Is that
4 your pleasure?
5 The Secretary will read a
6 substitution.
7 THE SECRETARY: On page 6 of
8 today's calendar, Senator Wright moves to
9 discharge the Committee on Consumer Protection
10 from Assembly Bill Number 1959 and substitute it
11 for the identical Calendar Number 354.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
13 Substitution is ordered.
14 Are there any motions on the
15 floor?
16 (There was no response. )
17 Senator Present, what is your
18 pleasure?
19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
20 Let's go to the non-controversial calendar.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
22 Non-controversial. The Secretary will read.
23 THE SECRETARY: On page 11,
1954
1 Calendar Number 184, by Senator Marino, Senate
2 Bill Number 1892A, an act to authorize the city
3 of Glen Cove, county of Nassau, to discontinue
4 the use of and to sell certain park lands.
5 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
6 for the day.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
8 that bill aside for the day. Continue on.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 314, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Bill Number
11 3513, an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law,
12 in relation to veterans' exemption.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
14 the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
16 act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
18 the roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll. )
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
22 bill is passed.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1955
1 329, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 2642,
2 an act to amend the Tax Law.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
4 the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
8 the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
12 bill is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 337, Assembly Budget Bill, Assembly Bill Number
15 1350A.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
17 temporarily.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
19 that bill aside temporarily.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 360, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3222,
22 an act to amend the County Law, in relation to
23 appointment, promotion, and retention of
1956
1 appointees of a county sheriff.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it aside.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
4 aside.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Present, what is your pleasure now?
7 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's go to the
8 controversial.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
10 Controversial.
11 (Whereupon, there was a pause in
12 the proceedings.)
13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
14 Can we take up Calendar 360?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 360.
16 Controversial.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 360, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3222,
19 an act to amend the County Law.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Dollinger.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
23 President. If the sponsor would just yield to
1957
1 one question?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm
3 sure he will.
4 Senator Daly.
5 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, as I
7 understand this bill, this bill with respect to
8 Monroe County would permit the sheriff to
9 continue the practice that he has had in the
10 past of hiring and retaining and promoting
11 deputy sheriffs. Is that correct?
12 SENATOR DALY: Yes, it is,
13 Senator, as long as he is -- he must realize he
14 is subject to the state constitutional
15 requirement for merit and fitness. Yes,
16 correct.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So this would
18 permit him to continue that operation. It is
19 also my understanding, Senator, that the Monroe
20 County sheriff is in favor of this bill,
21 although there has been no bill memorandum and
22 support memorandum from him. Is that also
23 correct?
1958
1 SENATOR DALY: Yes, he is.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
4 the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
8 the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
12 bill is passed.
13 Senator Present.
14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
15 I think there will be times during the day when
16 I think I will ask that we stand at ease. This
17 is one of those times.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm
19 sure there will be times when we have to stand
20 at ease. The Senate will stand easy.
21 (Whereupon, the Senate was at
22 ease. )
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
1959
1 Present.
2 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
3 Would you recognize Senator Kuhl, please.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I
5 recognize Senator Kuhl.
6 SENATOR KUHL: Mr. President. I
7 would like to announce a meeting of the Senate
8 Committee on Agriculture in the Senate Majority
9 Conference Room, Room 332, at 1:30 this
10 afternoon.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
12 Senate Agriculture Committee under the direction
13 of Senator Kuhl will be meeting in 332 at 1:30.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Present, do we have any other?
16 SENATOR PRESENT: That's the only
17 announcement at this time.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We will
19 continued to stand at ease.
20 (Whereupon, at 1:02 p.m., the
21 Senate was at ease.)
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
23 Present.
1960
1 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you
2 recognize Senator Holland, please.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
4 Holland.
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Thank you, Mr.
6 President. There will be an immediate meeting
7 of the Social Services Committee of the Senate
8 in the Majority Conference Room.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
10 Committee on Social Services will be meeting in
11 the Majority Conference Room immediately.
12 (Whereupon, the Senate continued
13 at ease. )
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1961
1 ....At 3:48 p.m.....
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3 Present.
4 SENATOR PRESENT: I'd like to
5 announce that there will be an immediate -- no,
6 at four o'clock there will be a Finance
7 Committee meeting in Room 332. Following a
8 report from the Finance Committee, we will come
9 back here and go into session.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
11 will be a meeting at four o'clock, which is in
12 12 minutes, in Room 332. Following the Finance
13 Committee meeting, there will be -- the Senate
14 will come back into session.
15 SENATOR PRESENT: Thank you.
16 (The Senate recessed from 3:48
17 p.m. to 4:31 p.m.)
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
19 Present.
20 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
21 can we return to reports of committees?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We
23 certainly may. The Secretary will read a report
1962
1 of a standing committee.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
3 from the Committee on Finance, reports the
4 following bill directly for third reading:
5 Senate Bill Number 651-A, Senate Budget Bill, an
6 act making appropriations for the support of
7 government and to amend the Legislative Law, in
8 relation to the appointment of Secretaries of
9 the Finance and Ways and Means Committees, and
10 certain committee resignations -- redesigna
11 tions, excuse me.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Present.
15 SENATOR PRESENT: May the bill
16 have its third reading now.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 bill will have its third reading now. The
19 Secretary will read the title.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 380, Senate Bill Number 651-A, an act making an
22 appropriation -- making appropriations for the
23 support of government.
1963
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I don't
3 think we'll read the last section.
4 Senator Leichter.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Mr.
6 President, I believe there's some amendments
7 that have been given to the desk.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
9 are amendments, aren't there, Mr. Secretary?
10 Hold on just a minute. We're looking for the
11 amendments.
12 Senator Leichter, your amendments
13 are here.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, excuse
15 me. Just one second.
16 Mr. President, the first
17 amendment that we're going to bring up is an
18 amendment that I am sponsoring, and I'll waive
19 the reading and -- and -
20 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Present.
23 SENATOR PRESENT: I understand
1964
1 copies of this amendment have not been served.
2 Can we hold that until they are served?
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, and I
4 apologize to you for that.
5 SENATOR PRESENT: And I accept
6 your apology.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
8 aside. Lay the amendment aside temporarily, Mr.
9 Secretary.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
11 President. Yes, yeah. Mr. President. We can
12 hold -- we can hold the amendments at this time
13 and we can go into -- once again, I have
14 occasion to thank the acting Majority Leader for
15 his courtesy and cooperation. I believe that
16 the amendment has now been properly served, and
17 I'd like to move the amendment.
18 I don't know how they're
19 identified, but it's an amendment that I am
20 making, relating to the legislative budget since
21 I think you have four amendments there. This is
22 amendment to -
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I
1965
1 thought we had three, but maybe you had four.
2 We identify it as the Leichter amendment.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: The Leichter
4 amendment. Fine, thank you. It's a good iden
5 ification for this amendment. This is the
6 amendment that calls for an itemized legislative
7 budget. I'm not going to spend much time on it
8 because we've -- we've done this a couple
9 times. We promised you, you're going to have a
10 chance to do it again. I think you know the
11 reasons for it.
12 It's very clear when we look at
13 this particular budget, the legislative budget,
14 that it says to the people of the state of New
15 York that the Legislature can do pretty much as
16 if damn pleases, and that the rules that apply
17 to other branches of government and to other
18 agencies don't apply to the Legislature.
19 We think it's wrong. We think
20 that we're dealing here with public money and
21 that the public has a right to know how its
22 money is going to be spent and that we have an
23 obligation as legislators when we vote on a
1966
1 budget to understand what the appropriations
2 are.
3 Now, nobody can maintain with a
4 straight face that this is an itemized budget,
5 as I understand it, as required by the legis...
6 by the Constitution, and certainly as is
7 required by good budgeting and proper
8 practices.
9 I wouldn't spend any time talking
10 about it, except I have the feeling that we'll
11 be -- that we're gaining some converts. It was
12 called to my attention that there was a bill
13 introduced by Senator DeFrancisco and Senator
14 Pataki and Senator Nozzoli', which actually
15 calls for an itemized budget pretty much along
16 the lines of my amendment and the bill that I
17 put in and have put in these many years, and
18 that we had a motion to discharge on and, in
19 fact, somebody would say that they have taken my
20 bill, which I'm delighted. I couldn't think of
21 better sponsors for it, and I'm delighted, if
22 anybody from the Majority would take the idea of
23 an itemized legislative budget and took it and
1967
1 saw that it actually became reality.
2 Now, the one difficulty I had
3 with that bill is that it calls for an itemized
4 budget beginning, I believe it's as of January
5 the 1st, 1995. I don't know why we need to wait
6 until January 1, 1995. Is it going to take two
7 years to put together an itemized budget?
8 Now, let me just say I hope
9 that's not a reflection on somebody -- what
10 somebody thinks of Steve Sloan and how quickly
11 he can put together an itemized budget. I've
12 always found that he works quickly and
13 efficiently, and I think that, if he was asked
14 to do it, he could come up with an itemized
15 budget in two days, not two years.
16 So I would say to my three
17 colleagues on the other side of the aisle that
18 they ought to join us now and say, We want an
19 itemized budget, and there's no reason or excuse
20 for delaying this. I don't think that anybody
21 should say, Well, I'm in favor of an itemized
22 budget some time in the future. If you want an
23 itemized budget, the time is now. There's no
1968
1 excuse for our not having an itemized budget at
2 this time, and my amendment requires that we
3 have an itemized budget not in 1995, not in 1994
4 -- now! Starting with the year 1993, fiscal
5 year 1993-1994.
6 So, Mr. President, I move the
7 amendment.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
9 amendment, all in favor say aye.
10 Yes, Senator Gold.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator
12 Stafford yield to a question?
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Stafford.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, there are
17 people in the -- in the government who are
18 looking this year for some guidance as to what
19 to do in the future, and I'd like to ask the
20 questions because they're not here to ask them
21 and, as the chairman of the Finance Committee, I
22 know you can be of great help to them.
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: I've always
1969
1 tried to be a great help to anyone I could.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Well, if
3 next year the Motor Vehicle Department submits
4 its budget to the Legislature in the form that
5 we have submitted our budget in terms of the
6 lumping together of numbers, will that be
7 sufficient for the submission of their budget to
8 us?
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I'd have
10 to see exactly what they did.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. That's what
12 they're going to do, Senator. Their budget is
13 going to be as itemized or as lack of
14 itemization as we have in our budget this year.
15 Is that acceptable?
16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Of course,
17 they would not have the requirement that public
18 records be maintained. It would be -- you would
19 have to take every case on its merits and again
20 I'd have to see what they say.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Well, I'm telling
22 you what they say, Senator. Their budget -
23 well, let me ask you, if the Senator will yield
1970
1 to one other question.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3 Stafford, would you yield to one other question?
4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you are
6 familiar with the Motor Vehicle Department
7 budget as it was submitted this year, isn't that
8 correct?
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I think
10 that any of us find that we have to spend a lot
11 of time on any of the budgets, that we want to
12 be fairly familiar. I have reviewed it.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Well,
14 Senator, you're familiar with it, your
15 committee, the committee you chair, which is
16 next to the Rules Committee, I guess the most
17 powerful committee we have, your committee -
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, you and
19 I know -
20 SENATOR GOLD: -- took that
21 budget, and you held hearings on it and you're
22 familiar with the budget, aren't you?
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, first, I
1971
1 don't know whether you talk about any of us
2 being powerful, I think it's -- when you think
3 you're powerful, you get into difficulty.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, I
5 appreciate your making those comments, but I'm
6 going to stick with it if you don't mind.
7 Senator, you held hearings, did
8 you not, on the Motor Vehicle Department budget?
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: No, we did
10 not.
11 SENATOR GOLD: You did not. O.K.
12 What are some of the budgets that you held
13 hearings on, Senator?
14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, now,
15 let's try -- I was going to say Environmental
16 Conservation, but we didn't, correct? Transpor
17 tation.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Well, let's take
19 Corrections. Are you familiar with the
20 Correction Department budget?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Now,
22 Senator Gold, I'm going to ask that you refer
23 your questions through the Chair.
1972
1 SENATOR GOLD: Your point is well
2 taken.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
4 is not going to be a colloquy between the two of
5 you.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Point is well
7 taken, Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You
9 don't have to yield any further.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator
11 yield to a question?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Stafford, are you willing to yield to another
14 question?
15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yeah.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you're
17 familiar with the Corrections Department budget
18 as it was submitted to the Legislature; is that
19 correct?
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I've reviewed
21 the budget.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Asking on
23 behalf of the Commissioner, who is not here
1973
1 today. Did they overwork, I mean did they use
2 too many staff people; did they calculate their
3 numbers and break them down too much; would it
4 have been easier for the Legislature if their
5 budget was, let's say, 25 percent of the size
6 that they submitted it and less detailed as our
7 budget? Did they overdo it?
8 SENATOR STAFFORD: I don't think
9 they overdid it. I think it's really difficult
10 for anybody to read a budget. I might add it's
11 the Governor who submits it.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. We -- Mr.
13 President, I -- thank you.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Gold.
16 SENATOR GOLD: You say it's the
17 Governor but, as you know, Senator, the
18 department prepares the budget, submits it to
19 the Executive. They probably do some
20 negotiation, and it comes up here. And my -- my
21 question, Senator is, has -- is that budget more
22 detailed than is required by law?
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: I don't think
1974
1 it's more detailed.
2 SENATOR GOLD: You don't think
3 so. You think that it is in -- when I say "more
4 detailed than required by law," what I'm saying
5 is, could that department have complied with
6 existing constitutional law and submitted a
7 budget which was, let's say, 50 percent of the
8 size or 25 percent of the size and much less
9 detailed? Could they have done that?
10 SENATOR STAFFORD: I'd have to
11 see when they submitted. I couldn't do that.
12 SENATOR GOLD: All right, Mr.
13 President. On the bill.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
15 bill, Senator Gold.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, on the
17 amendment, I'm sorry.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Well,
19 yes.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr.
21 President.
22 I certainly appreciate skill. I
23 think Senator Marchi had extraordinary skill in
1975
1 not answering questions when he held that
2 position. I think Senator Stafford follows in a
3 fine tradition of Finance chairmen who will not
4 answer questions, and I don't blame him. I
5 mean, after all, a gentleman of Senator
6 Stafford's stature does not run for public
7 office to be embarrassed and, obviously, the
8 answers would be embarrassing, and the reason
9 they'd be embarrassing is very simple:
10 There is nobody in the executive
11 branch of government that is going out of its
12 way in order to go two and three and four times
13 further in the preparation of a budget document
14 than the law requires. They comply with the
15 law, and that is why there is that detail, and
16 the simple fact is that we do not comply with
17 the law and, without mentioning names, I
18 understand that there was a philosophical
19 discussion among members of the Majority last
20 night and a question whether certain tactics
21 should stay the same or be changed, and I guess
22 one of the positions that was raised is why
23 should we change it? We -- and I'm paraphrasing
1976
1 now -- we violate the law; we do this; we do
2 that, but it works.
3 The press either doesn't
4 understand it, which is my belief, or doesn't
5 care, which would be much too callous of me to
6 say, and they believe that an editorial here and
7 there once a year gives them religion, which it
8 obviously doesn't -- by the way, it's
9 interesting. Does anybody from New York City
10 who does not read the New York Times know that
11 there were things happening in Russia last week
12 end? You wouldn't know it from the New York
13 newspapers because the biggest thing that
14 happened in New York, according to the New York
15 newspapers, was Mia and Woody. Interesting!
16 And these are the people we're relying on to
17 help us get reform.
18 At any rate, maybe you're right.
19 Maybe the reason that, year after year, you get
20 away with the fact that you violate the
21 Constitution is because the press talks out of
22 both sides of its mouth. You get an editorial
23 here and there, but day in and day out they
1977
1 allow you to violate that Constitution.
2 Even so, we take an oath to
3 defend the Constitution, not to comply with what
4 the press will let us get away with and, if
5 we're going to comply with the Constitution, we
6 ought to tell the people what we are doing with
7 their money, and the first way to do that is to
8 support Senator Leichter's amendment and the
9 fight which he has so gallantly carried on all
10 of these years.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
12 amendment, all in favor say aye.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
14 President.
15 (Response of "Aye.")
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
17 Opposed, nay.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Oh, I'm
20 sorry. Senator Dollinger.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
22 Mr. President.
23 Just on the amendment, my views
1978
1 on the issue of itemized budget are probably
2 well known to my colleagues. I'll just add one
3 other little tidbit that maybe illustrates the
4 need for an itemized budget in this house.
5 Yesterday, unbeknownst to me, someone found in
6 the Government Operations portion of the budget
7 a $500,000 allocation for a LASER lab in the
8 city of Rochester. I didn't know it was there;
9 I guess maybe I should have done some more home
10 work but at least someone could find it, tell me
11 that it was there, and tell me that that might
12 be a reason I should support the budget.
13 I guess someone else -- and I've
14 read a newspaper account that someone went
15 through and found out that the Boy and Girl
16 Scouts in Nassau County are also going to get
17 money out of that budget, because there was a
18 line item in this that said that they would get
19 money in the budget.
20 It seems to me that at least we
21 have the specificity in other budgets that we
22 lack in this one, and I'd just point out to my
23 colleagues that, before we cast any stones at
1979
1 anyone else in this government about how we
2 spend money, about how we close facilities,
3 about how we do all the things that are going to
4 happen in this budget process, that before we
5 cast any of those stones, we should look in our
6 own house and find that we don't even have any
7 pebbles; we don't have any -- any of the
8 weapons, anything to throw because we haven't
9 itemized our own budget, and I think it's a task
10 that, as we look to the rest of this budget, we
11 can't even itemize our own and find out where
12 the money goes, how it's used on a line item
13 basis.
14 We're -- if what we're doing by
15 passing this legislative budget is setting a
16 standard for how we're going to deal with the
17 rest of the budgeting in this state, my
18 colleagues, I'm afraid we're falling far short
19 of any reasonable accounting principle or any
20 reasonable budget principle, and it seems to me
21 that we lose our credibility in pursuing the
22 budget process further by not holding ourselves
23 to a higher standard.
1980
1 I'm in favor of the amendment,
2 Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
4 amendment.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote in the
6 affirmative.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party
8 vote. Call the roll on a party vote.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays 35,
11 party vote.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
13 amendment is not accepted.
14 Senator Halperin.
15 SENATOR HALPERIN: Mr.
16 President. Yes, there should be an amendment at
17 the desk that I have introduced.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: It's my
19 understanding there is an amendment here at the
20 desk.
21 SENATOR HALPERIN: I waive its
22 reading and will explain it and, once again,
23 since Senator Leichter was so brief in his
1981
1 explanation, I somehow feel compelled to be
2 brief in mine not because this is not an
3 extraordinarily important issue but because we
4 have been through it before and, unfortunately,
5 we have not been successful with promoting the
6 idea of quarterly reports.
7 As I've indicated in the past,
8 it's not a novel idea and, in fact, it's sort of
9 the next step after having a -- an itemized
10 budget that we should know how we're actually
11 expending the monies that we have appropriated,
12 but even if we don't have the degree of
13 specificity that we ought to have in an itemized
14 budget, at the very least we should have the
15 ability to determine after the fact how money
16 has been spent, and that's the very purpose of
17 this particular amendment.
18 Now, the idea, as I indicated, is
19 not a unique idea. I hold in my hand a book of
20 some several thousand pages, I believe. They're
21 very detailed explanations of how members of the
22 United States Senate have expended the public
23 monies that have been given over to them, and
1982
1 you can actually look in this book and find out
2 to such a degree, which by the way my amendment
3 would not even require, repairs to printers on
4 different dates, one costing $65 or $95, or you
5 can get individual vouchers for travel. All of
6 this is listed on a quarterly basis in this
7 report of the Secretary of the Senate.
8 Don't worry, Mr. Sloan, this is
9 the Secretary of a different Senate, but it
10 would be nice if you wouldn't have to be quite
11 as big as this, but it would be nice if the
12 Senate of the state of New York had a similar
13 report.
14 Now, not only is this done by our
15 national legislature -- and, by the way, I would
16 point out that the House of Representatives has
17 a similar disclosure requirement -- but there
18 are other states in this country that have
19 reports that really get to be a lot more
20 specific than what we have -- where we have
21 nothing specific at all, and I hold in my hand
22 the Wisconsin State Senate Fiscal Year 1993
23 Monthly Expenditure Report. So they not only
1983
1 report on a quarterly basis, they do it on a
2 monthly basis.
3 Similarly, the House of
4 Representatives of Georgia has a report done on
5 a quarterly basis. It does not have the same
6 degree of specificity as does the Congressional
7 reports, but it certainly gives the public an
8 opportunity to understand a lot more how their
9 money is being spent.
10 So we're not coming up with any
11 radical ideas here. New York is really supposed
12 to be a leader. I believe that our Legislature
13 probably spends more than most, if not all
14 legislatures in this country, and that's not
15 necessarily bad, but people should understand
16 how we're spending that money and whether
17 they're getting their money's worth. They're
18 not going to know that if the existing
19 circumstances continue where people just really
20 have very little access to the ways in which we
21 spend our money.
22 So I am once again offering this
23 amendment. I would hope that this particular
1984
1 time the members of this house would see the
2 wisdom of it. I know that we seem to be getting
3 some positive responses from members on the
4 other side of the aisle, but these positive
5 responses are usually accompanied by an excuse
6 as to why we can't vote for this at this time,
7 and so on, if it's not a bill; it's only an
8 amendment. It's only a motion to discharge.
9 I think the time is now to vote
10 for this. I -- I'm quite certain that, if the
11 budget were to be amended to include this
12 proposal, that the Governor would provide a
13 message of necessity so that we could pass this
14 budget by the end of the day and we could do it
15 in a way that we could all be more proud of.
16 So I urge that all the members of
17 this house join with me in voting for this
18 particular amendment.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
20 amendment.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote in the
22 affirmative.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party
1985
1 vote. Call the roll on party vote.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays 35,
4 party vote.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
6 amendment is not accepted.
7 SENATOR JONES: Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 Jones.
10 SENATOR JONES: Yes, Mr.
11 President. I believe you have another amendment
12 up there.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, we
14 do, Senator Jones.
15 SENATOR JONES: O.K. I will be as
16 brief as my colleagues. In fact, mine is very
17 simple and very brief. It deals, as you well
18 know, with mailings, and two questions are
19 answered, how many and when, and I read a quote
20 today in the Syracuse Herald-Journal where I was
21 happy to note that the Republican Senate is
22 looking at this because "they feel that this is
23 just nothing but a distraction." And I agree.
1986
1 That's why I think it is just so
2 simple that we put it into law, and that takes
3 away the option of anyone out there, for us to
4 criticize each other, for the press to criticize
5 us or any of the citizen groups that have grown
6 up in the past few years that are running around
7 trying to count pieces of mail.
8 I personally would have a much
9 higher level of comfort if I knew it's in the
10 law. I can send out my newsletter and inform my
11 constituents just as it's meant to do because
12 there's very important things going on around
13 here we want the public to know, but I would
14 personally have a much higher level of comfort
15 around this if I knew how many I had, that I was
16 sending them out, did not have to be concerned
17 about what people thought about that. I could
18 run for reelection and not have anyone saying I
19 did something wrong or something illegal.
20 This mailing is a good tool. We
21 need the tool, but we just need to put it down
22 in black and white what we're doing with it and
23 that, I think, will relieve all of us of being
1987
1 concerned about this and certainly take away the
2 distraction, because I agree it is.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
4 amendment.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote in the
6 affirmative.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party
8 vote. Call the roll on party vote.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays 35,
11 party vote.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
13 amendment is not accepted.
14 Senator Dollinger.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
16 President, I believe there's also another
17 amendment in front of the -- up at the podium
18 that deals with the Freedom of Information Act
19 and its applicability to the budget.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes,
21 there is, Senator Dollinger.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the
23 amendment, Mr. President.
1988
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
2 amendment, Senator Dollinger.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This will
4 probably also sound like the old broken record
5 that my colleague from Monroe County has men
6 tioned which seems to have that little annoying
7 skip in it, and keeps repeating the same thing
8 again and again and again.
9 Let me give it a new twist, an
10 Oliver Twist. I guess I feel a little bit like
11 I'm working the work of the "artful dodger"
12 poised at the pocket of the taxpayer just about
13 to put his little fingers into the taxpayers'
14 back pocket and just about to lift the $170
15 million out of his wallet and all the while when
16 someone turns and and says, "What are you doing
17 there," the answer is, "Oh, I'm just taking your
18 money but I'm not going to tell you what I'm
19 going to go do with it."
20 It seems to me that the Freedom
21 of Information Act is designed to tell the
22 artful dodgers of the world that you just can't
23 take the taxpayers' money, walk away with it and
1989
1 not account to them and tell them what it is
2 you're going to spend it on, whether it be mail,
3 whether it be staff, whether it be personnel and
4 committees and commissions and all the other
5 things that are included in the lump sums in
6 this very ambiguous budget document.
7 My suggestion is that the
8 taxpayers of this state can no longer tolerate
9 the "artful dodger" approach to spending their
10 money. Put the "artful dodger" back in the 19th
11 Century where he belongs. Give him a nice
12 Dickensonian funeral, and open up the gates,
13 open up, turn some light on in this government.
14 Let's set a model for everyone in state
15 government by letting the Freedom of Information
16 Act apply to this body and this Legislature and
17 consign the "artful dodger" theory of taxing
18 people and not telling them how you spend their
19 money to the 19th Century where it belongs.
20 In favor of the amendment, Mr.
21 President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
23 amendment.
1990
1 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote in the
2 affirmative.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party
4 vote in the affirmative.
5 SENATOR PRESENT: Party vote in
6 the negative.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party
8 vote in the negative. Call the roll on a party
9 vote.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays 35,
12 party vote.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
14 amendment is not accepted.
15 Senator Leichter.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
17 President, on the bill. I wonder if Senator
18 Stafford would be so kind as to yield.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Stafford, would you yield?
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, am I
22 correct that the appropriations for the Senate
23 for the year 1993-1994 begin on line 12 and
1991
1 extend to the bottom of page 4; they begin on
2 page 2, line 12, and extend to the bottom of
3 page 4, line 46; is that correct?
4 SENATOR STAFFORD: What page is
5 it?
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: We look at
7 page 2 and we see line 11 says "the Senate" and
8 then the text begins on line 12 -
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: I got it. I
10 got it.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- and
12 continues for the rest of that page, and then we
13 have page 3 and it continues all the way to the
14 bottom of page 4 which, on line 46, has a final
15 figure. Is that correct?
16 SENATOR STAFFORD: It appears to
17 be the situation, yes.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right. And
19 within those pages of -- roughly two and a half
20 pages, an appropriation of $62,845,000 -- I'm
21 sorry, let me state that again, $62,845,094 is
22 dealt with; is that correct?
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: That's right.
1992
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: And, Senator,
2 as I take a look at the general language on page
3 2 beginning on line 12, and I want to read some
4 of the language, it says: The Temporary
5 President of the Senate or his designate may
6 authorize expenditures to be made from
7 appropriations or reappropriations herein made
8 to the Senate Finance Committee or to the
9 allocable portion of an appropriation or
10 reappropriation so made to a legislative
11 counsel, commission or task force.
12 Am I right in understanding that
13 that gives the Temporary President the power to
14 allocate so much of that $62 million as Mr. -
15 Mr. President.
16 SENATOR STAFFORD: We try to -
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me just
18 finish my question. -- the Finance Committee as
19 well as to other commissions and councils, is
20 that correct?
21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Would you ask
22 the question again, please?
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right.
1993
1 That -- that language I read gives the Temporary
2 President the unfettered power, the discretion,
3 to allocate money as he desires between
4 commissions, councils, as well as the Finance
5 Committee?
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
7 I would just point out to my colleague, who is
8 also a part-time constituent of mine, that -
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Happily so.
10 SENATOR STAFFORD: -- that he and
11 I have been here in the Legislature a while, and
12 I would point out that you get people elected
13 from various Senate Districts, various Assembly
14 Districts and part of what -- by the way, what
15 you're saying is true for the Speaker too, Mr.
16 President, and I would just point out that when
17 you have a group of people like this that are
18 really individually elected, hold office, you
19 have to have a situation where you have a
20 leader, and that's what you do, you elect a
21 leader, and your leader has to make many
22 decisions.
23 I will point out to you, Senator,
1994
1 that, of course, things change -- change. When
2 I first came to the Senate, I didn't like the
3 seniority system. It's interesting how my
4 attitude has changed through the years, and you
5 have to have a system whereby you have a leader,
6 and decisions are made.
7 Now, I would point this out, but
8 we're different than most people, you included,
9 all of us. We get elected. Then we elect a
10 leader. We have to respond to the people. The
11 leader has to respond to us. I think there is
12 an accountability, and I think there has to be
13 flexibility when you have either 61 Senators or
14 150 Assemblymen.
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
16 take it, then, the answer to my question is yes
17 and that you explain it on the basis of -- that
18 democracy can't really function and work in a
19 legislative body such as this, but that we need
20 an autocracy, somebody with the divine right of
21 leadership.
22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
1995
1 Stafford.
2 SENATOR STAFFORD: This is why,
3 very often, Senator Leichter and myself differ,
4 even when we're at the Essex County Fair, when
5 he's bringing his vegetables. He hasn't got
6 into animals yet. And I shared with him what I
7 thought was a definition of democracy and I,
8 frankly, think it is, so obviously we disagree
9 on what that means.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, is it
11 your definition of democracy that a legislative
12 leader, granted who's elected by his fellow
13 legislators, should be given the power to
14 allocate $62 million as he wishes without there
15 being any explanation in the budget, any guide,
16 any standard as to how that allocation is to be
17 made or, after the allocation is made, that
18 there is to be any public accounting or release
19 of information which sets forth the basis of the
20 allocation; is that your definition of
21 democracy?
22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, once
23 again, your -- the length of your questions
1996
1 sometimes confuses me, and I would only say
2 again that, if we're going to have an effective
3 government, we have to have a leader. He or she
4 has to make the decisions and, as far as
5 accountability, why, there are public records
6 obviously in the Legislature and there are
7 public records in the Comptroller's office.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator,
9 talking about public records, if we could just
10 focus on that for a moment, if you would be kind
11 enough to continue to yield.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Stafford, do you wish to continue to yield?
14 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He
16 continues to yield.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Could
18 you define what public records there are which
19 would allow me to determine how many mailings
20 were sent out by the Senate Republicans, how
21 many newsletters each member of the Majority
22 sent out -
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Everything -
1997
1 publishing isn't, you know, specified. As far
2 as mailings, I think we've had many, many
3 discussions on that.
4 I find it very interesting. We
5 seem to talk about mailings being so secret.
6 How can they be secret when they go out? That's
7 what I haven't figured out? I don't send
8 mailings myself, not many.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. -- Senator
10 Stafford, if I live in Manhattan as I do, I
11 don't get the mailings from Senator Tully or
12 from Senator Goodman. Do I have, under your
13 view of democracy, do I have a right to know how
14 many mailings are sent out by Senator Tully?
15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, you don't
16 want to know what I would do. Well, excuse me.
17 My definition of democracy is obviously
18 different than yours but, you know very well,
19 when you want to talk practically here, you want
20 to talk sense, which I try to do, you know that
21 you can find out any mailing that goes out
22 anywhere. In fact, I'll bring you a very
23 interesting mailing I got last fall, if you want
1998
1 to talk about mailings.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, could
3 you tell me how I can find out the number of
4 mailings and the amount that was spent by
5 Senator Tully and by Senator Goodman in the year
6 1992? Could you tell me that information?
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: If there are
8 two individuals -
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me just
10 finish, Senator. If I could just finish.
11 Excuse me.
12 Is that information available
13 and, if so, would you tell me where I can get
14 that information?
15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, if there
16 are two individual Senators that can take care
17 of themselves, it's Senator Tully and Senator
18 Goodman. I suggest you ask them.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
20 think we're dealing here with a budget. I think
21 when we have a budget, you don't say to people,
22 Well, if you want to find out how much is being
23 spent by the Department of Social Services, go
1999
1 ask the Commissioner, if you can find the
2 Commissioner, if the Commissioner is willing to
3 answer.
4 I'm asking you, under your
5 definition of democracy, do I, as a member of
6 this body, have a right to know the allocations
7 for mailings of other members of this body and,
8 specifically, if I'm interested, as I am, in
9 Senator Tully's mailings and Senator Goodman's
10 mailings.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
12 Leichter, I've been very patient, and this
13 conversation that is going on between you and
14 Senator Stafford is -- is very interesting, but
15 unfortunately, you're supposed to address the
16 questions through the Chair, and Senator
17 Stafford has been very patient in trying to
18 answer all of these questions, and, Senator
19 Stafford, do you care to yield to that question?
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: Would you ask
21 the question again, please?
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, sure.
23 I'm sorry, Mr. President, and then I will direct
2000
1 it through you.
2 The question I'm addressing to
3 Senator Stafford is, can I find out the mailings
4 of individual members and, if so, where can I
5 find -- get that information?
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Listen. Mr.
7 President, I know that Senator Leichter is a
8 good lawyer. Where did you go to law school?
9 Where did you go to law school?
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: What?
11 Harvard.
12 SENATOR STAFFORD: He went to
13 Harvard. He really understands the practice of
14 law. Do you know that it would be entirely in
15 error and in poor taste now for me to be talking
16 about something that I believe is being
17 adjudicated?
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I -
19 well -- I -- I'm sort of non-plused by your
20 answer because I don't know what in the
21 litigation possibly prevents you in discussing
22 the budget for the year 1993-1994 and how much
23 information is disclosed, from revealing if,
2001
1 indeed, that information is available how many
2 mailings individual members sent out and how
3 many mailings were, for that matter, sent out in
4 the year 1992 if we want to make a comparison.
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, you're
6 asking about other legislators now.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Fine. If you
8 -- if you want me to, I believe the lawsuit
9 refers to Senator Tully, right? Let's talk
10 about -- let's talk about Senator Goodman.
11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Go ahead.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Can I find out
13 -- Senator, under your definition of the -
14 under your definition of democracy, can I find
15 out the mailings that were sent out by Senator
16 Goodman and what the total cost was for those
17 mailings?
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Senator, in
19 our system, you know it and I know it, we are
20 responsible, we have to make sure that we're
21 responsible to the people. We conduct our
22 majority, we conduct our majority and exactly
23 what's available and what each person does or
2002
1 does not do isn't specified in many areas.
2 Now, I understand exactly what
3 you are concerned about, and I suggest that in a
4 legislative budget, again, we have a majority.
5 We have the minority. There are many areas
6 where there's documentation and really, really
7 as far as mailings, as I've said, I don't think
8 anyone would have any difficulty finding out,
9 you know, what mailings go out.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator,
11 I think you and I both know that indeed the in
12 formation that I request is not available. It's
13 for that very reason that there's a lawsuit and
14 it's the refusal of the Majority to make that
15 information available which has created the
16 lawsuit, created the bad publicity for the
17 Senate and particularly for the -- for the
18 Majority, and I think you will have to concede
19 that it is not possible, not only for a
20 non-member but even for a member of the Senate
21 to get that information.
22 Indeed, if a Senate -- if a
23 Senator wanted to know the cost of the mailings
2003
1 that that Senator sent out, he'd be unable to
2 get that information; isn't that a fact?
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Not
4 necessarily.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Not
6 necessarily. Senator, we had an example here,
7 Senator Hoffmann said that she asked for
8 information and she was refused that
9 information.
10 Senator, let me ask you -- we'll
11 get away from mailing.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Stafford, would you yield to another question, I
14 presume?
15 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you.
17 You continue to yield, Senator.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes,
19 he's agreed to yield.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: I appreciate
21 that, good. Could you tell us -- could you tell
22 us, Senator, whether it's -- in this appropria
23 tion that we're talking about there are any
2004
1 contracts to be entered into with outside
2 consultants?
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think
4 through the year there often are contracts.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Could you tell
6 us the amount that is to be spent on that in
7 comparison to the amount that was spent in the
8 year 1992-1993?
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: De minimus.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I -
11 I don't know what de minimus means. It means a
12 lot of different things to people.
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Very small,
14 very small.
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, "very
16 small" in a $62 million budget may be 3 or 4 or
17 $5 million. Can you tell us the exact figure?
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: No, it's very
19 small.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
21 think that's hardly a figure. Are you
22 suggesting, Senator, that we -- that we budget
23 and that we have budget bills that instead of
2005
1 giving figures, we use big amounts, small
2 amounts, modest amounts; we're appropriating
3 modest amounts, de minimus amounts?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
5 Leichter, again, you know, we keep slipping into
6 this cross-examination and -- that you are
7 directing at this conversation between you and
8 Senator Stafford. It is beyond the rules of the
9 Senate and it is -- I'm trying to be as patient
10 with you as I can, and Senator Stafford has been
11 very patient but, again, I'm going to ask you
12 that you direct specific questions through the
13 Chair.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you.
15 SENATOR STAFFORD: The number of
16 contracts, it appears, would be two small
17 contracts that are on file.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: And what is
19 the amounts of those?
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I can get you
21 the amounts of those. I'll get you those
22 amounts.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Can you
2006
1 tell me, Senator, how much is being appropriated
2 here for furniture?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
4 Stafford, do you care to yield?
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, again,
6 you know, for these very specific items I'm sure
7 the Senator could get that information. I don't
8 have that exact information.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
10 does Senator Stafford continue to yield? Would
11 the Senator be so good as to advise me where one
12 can get that information?
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I would
14 say -- I would say actually, I would start at
15 the various offices, the Comptroller's office,
16 the offices here in the Senate.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
18 if Senator Stafford will continue to yield.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Stafford, I presume you're going to yield.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would you
22 suggest that after I start with the
23 Comptroller's office, I go to the offices of the
2007
1 61 members and ask each of them -
2 SENATOR STAFFORD: I didn't say
3 that, no.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, can I
5 go to the Secretary of the Senate and ask the
6 Secretary how much is being spent on furniture?
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think we
8 probably -- if we wanted to get that
9 information, I think we could get it.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
11 if Senator Stafford will continue to yield.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Stafford, would you yield for another question?
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm trying to
15 analyze your question. You said "if we wanted
16 to". I don't know who "we" is. I want to get
17 the information. If I go to the Secretary of
18 the Senate and say, Please tell me how much is
19 being appropriated for furniture in this budget
20 of $62 million, can I get that information?
21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, first,
22 you say you don't know who "we" is. That's
23 myself, you, and our colleagues; you understand
2008
1 that?
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Now -- now I
3 do.
4 SENATOR STAFFORD: And I'm saying
5 if you wanted to get the information you needed,
6 there are offices we could get that
7 information. I'll be glad to take you there.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry. I
9 didn't catch your last words.
10 SENATOR STAFFORD: I said that,
11 if you are serious and need this information,
12 I'm sure I can take you to where we can find
13 it.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right.
15 Mr. President, if Senator Stafford will continue
16 to yield.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Stafford.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: But as
20 chairman of Finance at this moment, when we're
21 asked to vote on the bill, you can't give me the
22 information or tell me exactly where I can get
23 it; is that correct?
2009
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: You know, Mr.
2 President, you know, this is really -- I suppose
3 people are frustrated for various reasons, but
4 obviously we have to depend on our staff; we
5 have to depend on the people who work for us.
6 Nobody's able to have the ability to stand up
7 and say exactly, Here's what we're purchasing,
8 here's what we did here.
9 I would say again, and I
10 certainly have all due regard for Senator
11 Leichter, I point out to him that we have the
12 debate usually at the end of the session, on a
13 certain subject every year, but all of this
14 information is available, and we can get any
15 specifics that we want to get from our
16 colleagues and staff, and I assure you I would
17 get any information that he needed.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I -
19 if Senator Stafford will continue to yield one
20 or two more questions, please.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Stafford, will you continue to yield?
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
2010
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, can
2 you tell me how much is allocated to each of the
3 standing committees of the Senate?
4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, each -
5 each year it varies, Mr. President, and again, I
6 don't apologize and never have for having a
7 situation where you elect a leader. When the
8 leader has to make many decisions, many would
9 think that we should be able to come here to
10 Albany and, 61 Senators, do what he or she want
11 to do. If we did that, we'd be like certain
12 other bodies, the one which was referred to
13 earlier today, but again we do have a situation
14 where the leader, together with the chairman of
15 the committee, work out those details and it's
16 done in a way that we get things done, and I
17 would suggest that the other house here in our
18 New York State Legislature is not that much
19 different.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
21 if Senator Stafford will continue to yield.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
23 Leichter.
2011
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, no
2 one on this side of the aisle is in any way
3 defending practices that we consider wrong in
4 the Senate if they're being also done by the
5 Assembly, and they are, and we're as critical of
6 the Assembly which is run by Democrats as we are
7 of the Senate which is run by Republicans.
8 It is our position that we have a
9 right to know certain information on the budget
10 that we're being asked to vote on, and I'm
11 trying to see whether that information is
12 available to us before we are asked to vote an
13 appropriation of $62 million.
14 How can we determine the validity
15 of this appropriation, if you or anyone else who
16 wishes to explain this bill or stand up and
17 defend this bill cannot answer questions of
18 where that money is going for?
19 Let me ask you, we can't find out
20 information about contracts. We can't find out
21 the amounts for furniture. Let me ask you about
22 employ... and we can't find out what allocations
23 are being made to committees. Senator, can you
2012
1 tell us the salary schedule for members employed
2 by the Majority; is that set forth anywhere?
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, again,
4 Senator, you have been here a number of years.
5 I believe you served in the Assembly also, and I
6 think that you know that every employee and his
7 or her records are public.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, how
9 many employees are scheduled to be hired by the
10 Majority under this appropriation?
11 SENATOR STAFFORD: That's, once
12 again, as I go back, what I explained earlier,
13 you know, we could have a situation where we all
14 did what we wanted, what he or she wanted to do
15 but once again, you know, that goes back to the
16 question earlier, that is determined working
17 with the Senator, with the chairman and the
18 leader's office.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, Mr.
20 President, on the bill.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
22 bill.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: First, I want
2013
1 to thank my good friend and my -- he's not only
2 my summer Senator, because I occasionally also
3 go up to a wonderful vacation home that I'm
4 fortunate to have in Essex County during winter
5 time and he's always most courteous, most
6 cordial, most helpful, and I appreciate that
7 he's stood up on the floor. It's not a -- I
8 think a task that anybody would happily do
9 because the fact of the matter is that Senator
10 Stafford -- and he's a terrific chairman of
11 Finance, but he labors under the same disability
12 that everybody in this house, which is that
13 we're being asked to vote on an appropriation
14 for the Senate of $62 million, and we're asked
15 to vote an appropriation of the Assembly for $75
16 million, and we're being asked to vote for some
17 other appropriations, joint Senate/Assembly
18 appropriations; then we're being asked to vote
19 for reappropriations for various legislative
20 commissions. Total bill that the public has to
21 pay of about $167 million, and I submit that the
22 basic principle of democracy and proper
23 government, Senator Stafford, is that you have
2014
1 to understand what you're voting for. But if
2 you can't get the information, if every question
3 that you ask about how is money being spent is
4 met with, "Well, why don't you ask the
5 Comptroller," and "I'll try to find out some
6 office where you can get that information," and
7 "Well, Senator Tully's people know how much
8 mail he sends out," Senator, I submit that does
9 not give us as members the information that we
10 need to cast intelligent votes.
11 Now, in part you and I went
12 through a charade, and we went through that
13 charade with Senator Tarky Lombardi when he was
14 the chairman and Senator Marchi when he was the
15 chairman, because you and I know what we're
16 talking about and every member here knows what
17 we're talking about, even those good new members
18 who joined us for the first time in January of
19 this year who are in their first term, that we
20 have a budget that's a fraud. It's a disgrace.
21 To appropriate this amount of money and not to
22 itemize, to -- in two and a half pages for the
23 Senate, to dispose of 68 million or $62 million
2015
1 without any itemization or only the broadest
2 categories, 3,000 -- three and a half million
3 dollars for mailings, which interestingly is the
4 same amount every year and as we've shown and
5 it's not been refuted, you hoard that money in
6 non-election years and then in election years,
7 suddenly the spigot on mailings for Republican
8 incumbents opens and, if I'm wrong, all that you
9 have to do is, Steve Sloan tomorrow can come to
10 me and say "Leichter, look, here's what we did.
11 You were wrong."
12 I'll get up on this floor; I
13 won't do it in Macy's window, but on this floor
14 I'll apologize. I'll say, "Gee, that
15 information was available and it was supplied."
16 Instead, what do we get when we come out with
17 these figures? We get statements by Mr. McArdle,
18 and so on, "Oh, these guys are all wrong."
19 Well, if we're all wrong, open up
20 the books. But the first thing you have to do
21 is, before you ask us to vote on this sort of a
22 budget, before any of you vote on this sort of a
23 budget, you have to disclose how the money is
2016
1 being spent, and there's absolutely nothing as
2 far as the proper working of the legislative
3 body, which requires that you give to one person
4 this unfettered discretion and power to move
5 monies around, to spend money as he or she
6 wishes.
7 In fact, if you take a look what
8 other legislative bodies do, our staff here did
9 a very interesting comparison. The New York
10 State Legislature appropriates per page
11 $4,839,000. We can appropriate that on one
12 page. In fact, it seems to me that that figure
13 is low, but let's accept that figure.
14 In comparison, the Buffalo City
15 Council, they need -- they need one page just to
16 appropriate $92,000. That takes a full page.
17 The Erie City Council, they need a full page for
18 $268,000. Nassau County Board, it takes them
19 one page of a budget bill to appropriate some
20 $464,000, and so it goes on.
21 It's only the New York State
22 Legislature that has these broad lump sum
23 categorizations, this power to the Majority
2017
1 Leader, or in the Assembly to the Speaker and
2 let me say, while we're critical of the
3 Assembly, at least the Assembly is now disclos
4 ing information about mailings and that's an
5 important step forward.
6 Let me -- let me say that, and it
7 was well expressed earlier by Senator Gold, your
8 attitude is, Listen, we can proceed with this
9 undemocratic procedure. We can violate every
10 form of good budgeting because we can get away
11 with it. Don't tell us to do something that's
12 right if we can get away with it. I don't think
13 there's a single member here, and I know you all
14 and I've respect for you all, and you're all
15 decent people and you're intelligent people and
16 you've come here with a goal of serving the
17 public who would say to me, Leichter, I really
18 believe this is the way you got to budget for a
19 Legislature. It's the only way you can do it.
20 You're wrong, Leichter. You all know that this
21 is not the way to do it. You don't believe it's
22 the way to do it, and in point of fact you can
23 come out with an itemized budget and you can
2018
1 maintain those powers that you have and you will
2 elect more Republicans than were elected as
3 Democrats.
4 You run this house. You can pass
5 any budget that you want to. You can maintain
6 those perq's that you think are important, those
7 advantages and benefits and still have an
8 itemized budget. Or are you ashamed of what
9 you're doing and unwilling to let the public
10 know, and even let your fellow members know and
11 this includes members of the Majority who don't
12 know how the legislative appropriations are
13 going to be spent?
14 Sometimes I think that the only
15 people more cynical than -- I don't want to say
16 that we're cynical, but at times we do cynical
17 things; this is a cynical budget. I'm sorry to
18 use those expressions, but I guess maybe the
19 only more cynical people here than those who put
20 forth this sort of a budget and then try to
21 defend it, are -- are the press.
22 You know, they'll go crazy if
23 they find that some state agency misspent
2019
1 $50,000 and maybe they should, because the
2 public money ought to be protected. But here
3 $168 million is appropriated in a few pages,
4 lump sum categories. Everybody knows it's a
5 fraud; it's a hoax; it's disgraceful, but you
6 can't get any attention paid to this issue.
7 So we're going to keep on, on
8 this floor, I shouldn't say maybe that there's
9 no attention paid to it because there have been
10 some stories and there have been some editorials
11 on it, and I think that the public is beginning
12 to understand and we're going to do everything
13 that we possibly can to make the public
14 understand this, not because we're looking for
15 some political advantage.
16 Yes, I think there's a political
17 advantage for us, but that's not what we're
18 interested in. We're interested as members of
19 this body who revere this body that we should
20 not submit this sort of a budget, that we should
21 not ask members to vote on appropriations of
22 hundreds of millions of dollars or tens of
23 millions of dollars or even if it was a million
2020
1 dollars or even if it was one dollar, without
2 our understanding what we're voting for and
3 without the public being able to look at a
4 document and say this is how that money is going
5 to be spent. They spent it correctly or they
6 spent it incorrectly.
7 We're not above the law. We
8 should abide by the same principle that we apply
9 to the Executive Budget, to the judicial
10 budget. Take a look at the judicial budgets, in
11 the same bill, and there we have a fair degree
12 of itemization.
13 I just want to say people who
14 say, Well, we can't vote this down because after
15 all, you know, we have to take care of the
16 judiciary and so on, we could easily receive
17 this budget. We could easily have this
18 legislative budget rewritten, put before us on a
19 message of necessity and pass it.
20 I assure you government would not
21 come to a standstill if you had to wait a couple
22 days while this budget was being itemized.
23 That's what we ought to be doing. We should not
2021
1 pass a budget in this form.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3 Jones.
4 SENATOR JONES: Yes, Mr.
5 President.
6 Would Senator Stafford yield to a
7 question, please?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 Stafford, would you yield to a question from
10 Senator Jones?
11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
12 SENATOR JONES: And mine is a
13 very simple one. You mentioned before that you
14 have to rely on your staff. Well, as you know,
15 being a new person here, I have to rely more on
16 many of you. Before we spoke about the mailings
17 I had people calculate if we all sent four what
18 it would have come to, and it would have been a
19 saving of three and a half to 4 million, but I
20 guess now I'm confused.
21 Last year, the expenditure was
22 3,652,000 roughly, but this year I see you only
23 have in here 3,500,000, so perhaps you've
2022
1 already taken the cut that I've been talking
2 about.
3 Could you tell me, does this
4 represent a cut from last year and what is your
5 present year for that item?
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, first I
7 want to commend you on your first year and you
8 have a great future ahead of you. I've enjoyed
9 the -- I enjoyed it.
10 SENATOR JONES: But you can't
11 answer my question.
12 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would also
13 say, as far as the figures you're talking about,
14 I'm talking about -- I don't have them before
15 me. If the number is less, if the number is less
16 than the year before that would be a cut.
17 SENATOR JONES: Would the Senator
18 yield to another question?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would
20 you yield to another question?
21 SENATOR JONES: Well, then, in
22 other words, I heard you say get the numbers
23 from the Comptroller, so these did come from the
2023
1 Comptroller, so I assume this 6 million must be
2 correct.
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: I -
4 SENATOR JONES: For last year.
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: If that number
6 came from the Comptroller, I'd have to look at
7 it before I -
8 SENATOR JONES: Let's assume that
9 is correct, so if I could find last year's
10 budget, I would probably find this item, this
11 amount as opposed to the 3 million that's here
12 this year.
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: How much is
14 this amount?
15 SENATOR JONES: This is
16 3,300,000.
17 SENATOR STAFFORD: And what's the
18 one before?
19 SENATOR JONES: Last year you
20 spent 6 million, almost, five hundred thousand?
21 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would have
22 to look at the figures with you. I'm a bit
23 familiar with this, and I'm not sure you have
2024
1 the correct figure.
2 SENATOR JONES: Well, Mr.
3 President, another question.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
5 Jones.
6 SENATOR JONES: As you know, I'm
7 not familiar at all with last year, Senator, so
8 I'm just trying to learn here, you know, so
9 maybe if someone does have that, if I could see
10 what the number is last year.
11 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Dollinger.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
15 President, will Senator Stafford yield to a
16 question.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Stafford?
19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, as I
21 understand the Finance Committee budget involves
22 -- the legislative portion of this is about 167
23 million plus some minor change; is that correct?
2025
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: I'd have to
2 look; I believe so, yes.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And it's my
4 further understanding that that 167 million is
5 the amount that the Legislature would be
6 expected to spend between April 1st, tomorrow I
7 guess it is, and a year from today; is that
8 correct?
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I'll
10 explain what a fiscal year is. That starts with
11 April 1st and it goes to March 31st; that's what
12 those figures are.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So we're on
14 the current day of the last fiscal year and
15 we'll start a new one tomorrow.
16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Pardon me?
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We're on the
18 last day today -
19 SENATOR STAFFORD: What's the
20 date?
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: March 31st.
22 SENATOR STAFFORD: So you see?
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So we start a
2026
1 new fiscal year tomorrow.
2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Again -
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you,
4 Mr. President. Would you yield to another
5 question?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would
7 you yield to another question?
8 SENATOR STAFFORD: I didn't
9 answer the first question.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll wait for
11 the answer to the first question. I'm waiting
12 for the first question.
13 What I'm trying to find out is
14 the first -- the 167 million and change, it's my
15 understanding that's the budgeted amount for the
16 next fiscal year that we start tomorrow; is that
17 correct?
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, what it
19 is, it starts on April 1st, tomorrow, and it
20 goes to March 31st of 1994.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Oh, O.K. And
22 that's what we anticipate that this Legislature
23 will spend, correct?
2027
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: We're
2 budgeting it. You always -- you anticipate
3 everything you budget?
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I'm
5 simply trying to find out what that number
6 represents. I'm trying to -- that's what we
7 intend to spend.
8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, it
9 represents the budget.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's the
11 budgeted amount, what we anticipate to spend;
12 isn't that correct?
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes. The word
14 "anticipated" I'm not sure is the exact correct
15 word. It's the budget for the 1993-1994 fiscal
16 year.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But that's
18 what we anticipate spending; isn't that correct?
19 SENATOR STAFFORD: It's budgeted
20 and then, of course, it could be up, it could be
21 down; you never know.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, that's,
23 I guess, my question but that's -- that's what
2028
1 we sat down and said, that's what we need to run
2 the Legislature in the '93 and '94 years; isn't
3 that correct? That's what I assume the Finance
4 Committee is referring to, through you, Mr.
5 President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes,
7 Senator Stafford.
8 SENATOR STAFFORD: I was
9 referring to what?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I
11 wasn't sure of the question.
12 (Talking over.)
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, it was
14 167 million, Mr. President, through you, that we
15 expect to spend in the next fiscal year; am I
16 correct or incorrect?
17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Don't you see
18 a budget more or less as a guide? Don't you
19 find it that way? Do you have a budget in your
20 business, you know?
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll accept
22 it, Mr. President, but that's our guide for the
23 next year is 167 million; isn't that correct?
2029
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: And change,
2 wouldn't you say?
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And change,
4 isn't that correct?
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Pardon me?
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't that
7 correct, that's what the anticipated expenses
8 are?
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: We're back to
10 "anticipated" now.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, strike
12 that, Mr. President, budgeted expenses.
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Guideline.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No. We're
15 just voting on a guideline; is that correct,
16 through you, Mr. President?
17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Didn't get it.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
19 Stafford, I guess he's yielding. Are you
20 yielding?
21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Oh, by all
22 means.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He says
2030
1 that's a guideline.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think we've
3 established that, Mr. President. What I want to
4 ask is, and the point of my question is, if our
5 guideline is 167 million, and that's what we
6 budgeted for -
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Right.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- why do we
9 need $55 million of reappropriations over the
10 top of that?
11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, you'll
12 find -- you'll find that in -- really budgeting
13 is a science. It's a science, and I assure you
14 that I'm not as much of a scientist as I should
15 be and, when you start talking about soft money
16 and hard money and reappropriations, it's quite
17 confusing, but then I think I can help you.
18 Usually a reappropriation is
19 something that was not spent, so it's funds are
20 there, but if you're going to be able to use
21 them in the next fiscal year -- remember, fiscal
22 year now was April 1st to March 31st, if you're
23 going to be able to use those funds, they have
2031
1 to be re-appropriated because, see they were
2 appropriated once; so reappropriated means they
3 are being appropriated again. They weren't
4 used.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Let me
6 just ask another question through -
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Stafford, would you yield to another question
9 from Senator Dollinger?
10 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, are
12 you familiar with the Legislative Commission on
13 the Modernization and Simplification of the Tax
14 Administration and the Tax Law?
15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And do you
17 know how much they were budgeted for in 1992 and
18 '93?
19 SENATOR STAFFORD: I don't have
20 that right in front of me. I believe that
21 was -
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I
23 can tell you.
2032
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He's
2 still answering.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me,
4 Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Are you
6 finished with your answer?
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: He's finished
9 with his answer?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He's
11 finished with his answer.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, just
13 for my colleagues' edification, I would say that
14 figure from the budget document was $404,000 in
15 the budget year and, in addition, it's budgeted
16 at 404,000 in the current or in the future
17 fiscal year. I shouldn't say "budgeted",
18 perhaps "guided", Mr. President; is that the
19 term we've agreed on?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I only
21 just direct who's got the floor.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K., Mr.
23 President.
2033
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Again, I hate
2 to confuse anyone because it's so easy for me to
3 be confused, but this is an Assembly commission
4 so it's -- the details really would come from
5 the Assembly.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I guess
7 my question is -- my further question is, Mr.
8 President, they were budgeted for 104... 404,000
9 but this year we're going to reappropriate
10 $594,000. Where does all the extra money come
11 from, through you, Mr. President. To the
12 chairman of the Finance Committee?
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, that's
14 certainly good news. I don't know, I don't know
15 how often -- we often hear that, but obviously
16 what it would be, it would be funds not being
17 spent over the years, so you actually end up
18 with more, and whoever is involved in this
19 commission, all of them are to be commended.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
21 President, just -- so my question to the
22 chairman of the Finance Committee is, if they
23 aren't spending money and we haven't -- we've
2034
1 given them a guideline to spend some more but
2 they didn't spend what we gave them last year,
3 why should we continue them in existence and
4 just not give that money back to the taxpayers
5 so we can make them as happy as we are?
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: I urge, Mr.
7 President, I urge my colleague to come to some
8 of the Senate budget hearings, or Senate and
9 Assembly budget hearings next year. Maybe you
10 did, maybe you did this year, but budgeting is
11 not an exact science. We don't know exactly
12 what's going to happen in one year. You can
13 have three years where you don't use too much,
14 then you might be in a position where you needed
15 more. I assure you, if we find too many of
16 these, the money will be used very quickly.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
18 President, one more question to my colleague.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Stafford, I'm sure, will yield.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator,
22 you've been certainly in this Legislature far
23 longer than I have, and my -- my question is, if
2035
1 there were a state agency that you found had
2 been appropriated or excuse me, guided for a
3 certain dollar amount and then you found out
4 that it only spent two-thirds of that amount,
5 wouldn't your natural reaction, based on your
6 experience in this Legislature, be to cut the
7 agency back one-third since it could only spend
8 two-thirds of the total amount you budgeted it
9 for in the first place?
10 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, once
11 again, it would depend on -- Mr. President, it
12 would depend on the facts. It would depend on
13 what their responsibility has been, what it's
14 going to be. You know, it's very easy, very
15 easy. I found myself doing it, and I still do
16 it, you know, you see something, you say this is
17 ridiculous, doesn't make any sense. Very often
18 when you look into it, you see why the money
19 wasn't spent in the last couple of years, but
20 why there may be a need for the money next year,
21 and I have to share with you that the people
22 that work with these numbers in the budget,
23 Division of the Budget, and the -- and in the
2036
1 Legislature, and in anywhere in government, you
2 were in local government I believe, local
3 government?
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I was.
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Right. You
6 found the same thing. You never know exactly,
7 you know, what the next year is going to bring,
8 and I suppose that, if I found an agency that
9 had a -- had a billion dollars left over, I
10 think I probably would say let's use it.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, Mr.
12 President, one other question through you.
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: It was my last
14 question.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Be my last
16 question, Mr. Chairman.
17 To use the same analogy on the
18 state budget, we're about to give or someone is
19 about to give Governor Cuomo and the executive
20 branch and the entire state government about $60
21 billion dollars or so, give or take some change,
22 worth of authorization to spend money in the
23 next fiscal year as you've described it, or I
2037
1 should say guidelines to spend that; is that
2 correct?
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Now, wait a
4 minute; say that again.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, the
6 budget battle that we're about to have, the
7 budget discussion that we're about to have, the
8 total spending budget number, the total
9 authorized spending level would be somewhere in
10 the neighborhood of $60 million -- $60 billion;
11 isn't that correct?
12 SENATOR STAFFORD: It's the
13 vicinity.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If Governor
15 Cuomo came back and said, Gosh, I only spent 40
16 billion of that and next year I want to
17 reappropriate 20 billion, one-third of my total
18 amount, is it safe to say, Mr. Chairman, that
19 you as the chairman of the Finance Committee
20 would recommend that the following year the
21 guideline or the budget be reduced to the amount
22 he actually spent, rather than that guideline
23 number of 60 billion? Wouldn't you drop the
2038
1 budget to 40 billion, and say this is money not
2 spent and give it back to the taxpayers?
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: I suggest you
4 go down to Governor Cuomo and try to get any
5 money back. I'll tell you, it's such -
6 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President,
7 a point of information.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 Galiber, why do you rise?
10 SENATOR GALIBER: Is there a time
11 limit on this? I try -- I've been opposed to
12 cameras in the courtroom and CNN coming in, but
13 is there a two-hour time limit?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes,
15 there is a two-hour time limit.
16 SENATOR GALIBER: Can you tell me
17 how much time we have left?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: What
19 time did this start?
20 SENATOR GOLD: Started at 5:30.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In deference
22 to -
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: This
2039
1 stimulating debate started at 4:36.
2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
3 I have been very, very -- tried to be very, very
4 patient and I will continue to be, and I'll
5 stand and ask questions, as long as anyone wants
6 to -- or answer questions as long as anyone
7 wants to -- answer questions as long as anyone
8 wants to ask them, but I suggest that Senator
9 Galiber's point drives home a very sensible
10 point.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
12 President, with that guidance from my two
13 colleagues, I'll discontinue my questioning and
14 I'd just like to to be heard on the bill for a
15 brief point.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
17 bill, Senator Dollinger.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It seems to
19 me that the reason why I highlighted the
20 Commission on Modernization and Simplification
21 of the Tax Law is that we are about to violate a
22 very modern and simple principle of taxing, and
23 that is, when you don't need it don't tax for
2040
1 it.
2 We're about to reappropriate 55
3 billion -- million dollars over the top of a
4 $167 million budget. Anyone who thinks we're
5 reducing legislative expenses, at least in the
6 guideline principles of budgeting that I'm
7 familiar with, is sorely mistaken. How we can
8 justify this tax study commission which we
9 appropriate, budget or guideline 404,000 for and
10 they turn back into the state treasury as a
11 reappropriation $594,000 and we don't examine
12 what they did, how they did it, what they spent,
13 what they spent it for, without itemized budget
14 ing, without the kinds of reforms that we're
15 talking about, we can't make any sense of this
16 document.
17 I'd just submit that much like
18 the artful dodgers I mentioned a minute ago,
19 we're about to take money from the taxpayers and
20 not account for it again.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
22 bill? Read the last section.
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
2041
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold
2 on.
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President,
4 on behalf of the Majority Leader, can we lay
5 this bill aside? And may we have any reports of
6 standing committees?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay the
8 bill aside temporarily and a report of a
9 standing committee will be read.
10 The clock stopped.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman,
12 from the Committee on Investigations, Taxation
13 and Government Operations -
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Galiber -- go ahead, I'm sorry.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman,
17 from the Committee on Investigations, Taxation
18 and Government Operations, reports the following
19 bill directly for third reading: Senate Bill
20 Number 4064, by Senator Lack, an act to amend
21 the Tax Law and Chapter 713 of the Laws of 1992
22 amending the tax law, relating to Suffolk County
23 sales and use taxes.
2042
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
2 objection, that bill is reported directly to
3 third reading.
4 Senator Padavan.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
6 a point of order.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Leichter, what's your point of order?
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Point of
10 order. When was there a meeting of the
11 Committee on Taxation and Investigations at
12 which those two bills were acted on?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 -- do we -
15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator Goodman
16 is out of the chamber.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'll
18 have to ask the acting Majority Leader.
19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator Goodman
20 is not in the chamber at this moment in time,
21 but we'll certainly try to reach out to him and
22 get an answer to that question.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: As soon
2043
1 as we can reach Senator Goodman, we'll try to
2 get you an answer, Senator Leichter.
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: We can hold
4 that report.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
6 Senator, just a moment, we have a slip at the
7 desk with the votes of each member if you would
8 be interested in that, and if I might, it was
9 unanimously voted on by Senator Goodman, Senator
10 Marchi, Senator Trunzo, Senator Maltese, Senator
11 Skelos, Senator DeFrancisco, Senator Nozzolio,
12 Senator Stavisky, Senator Onorato, Senator
13 Mendez, Senator Smith and Senator Waldon. It
14 was 12 to nothing. You might ask one of the
15 other members.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: I accept the
17 bills; I asked when there was a meeting of the
18 committee.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That's
20 all the desk has is the vote of the -
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'm sure it
22 would be a valid vote of the committee; I would
23 accept the committee report as read.
2044
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
2 report has been accepted.
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
5 Padavan still has the floor.
6 Senator Seward.
7 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, if we could
8 return to motions, on behalf of Senator Daly, on
9 page 15, I offer the following amendments to
10 Calendar Number 331, Senate Print Number 3370-A
11 and ask that the bill retain its place on the
12 Third Reading Calendar.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
14 amendments are received. The bill will retain
15 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
16 Senator Present.
17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
18 I move that we recess subject to the call of the
19 Majority Leader. I will advise all members to
20 keep in contact with their respective offices or
21 with the Senate telephone -
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
23 Senate will stand in recess. Senators are to
2045
1 remain in contact with the -- with their offices
2 and -- or with the Senate telephone operators.
3 Senate stands in recess unless there's any other
4 motions or business.
5 (The Senate recessed from 5:55
6 p.m. until 11:04 p.m.)
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Present. Senate will come to order.
9 Senator Present.
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
11 will you see if you can get a little order in
12 this chamber, please.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Let's
14 have some order in the chamber, please. The
15 conversations -- that's about as much as we'll
16 get, I guess.
17 Senator Present, what's your
18 pleasure?
19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
20 I'd like unanimous consent to suspend the rules
21 and advance from the Second Report Calendar
22 Calendar Number 359, Senate Bill 3986 out of its
23 regular order to third reading.
2046
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
2 Secretary will read. Without objection, we're
3 going to -- that bill is advanced.
4 Senator Present, there's a
5 committee report here at the desk.
6 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's hear the
7 committee report.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
9 Secretary will read the committee report.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
11 from the Committee on Finance, reports the
12 following bill directly for third reading.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold on
14 a minute. All right. We'll try and be a little
15 patient. It's late. There's a committee report
16 and I would ask that there be a little bit of
17 order in this chamber.
18 Secretary will read the committee
19 report.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
21 from the Committee on Finance, reports the
22 following bill directly for third reading:
23 Senate Bill Number 4245, by the Committee on
2047
1 Rules, an act to provide for payments to
2 municipalities and to providers of medical
3 services under the medical assistance program
4 and income maintenance program and making an
5 appropriation therefor, directly to third
6 reading.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
8 objection, directly to third reading.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
10 I ask that that bill have its third reading at
11 this time. Is there a message of necessity at
12 the desk?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
14 a message of necessity here at the desk. Yes,
15 Senator.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: I move that we
17 accept the message.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All in
19 favor of accepting the message, say aye.
20 (Response of "Aye.")
21 Those opposed nay.
22 (There was no response. )
23 You can read the last section.
2048
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
4 the roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll. )
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes -- ayes 56,
7 nays 4, Senators Holland, Maltese, Padavan and
8 Velella recorded in the negative.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
10 bill is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Also Senator
12 DeFrancisco in the negative.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
14 bill is passed.
15 Senator Present, what's your
16 pleasure?
17 SENATOR PRESENT: It came that
18 time that I mentioned earlier in the afternoon
19 it's time to stand at ease for a while. We're
20 going to stand at ease.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
22 Senate will stand at ease.
23 (The Senate stood at ease from
2049
1 11:08 p.m. to 11:49 p.m.)
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3 Present. Senate will come to order.
4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
5 in behalf of Senator Levy, I'd like to announce
6 there will be a Republican Conference at 12:00
7 o'clock in 332. That's midnight.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Are we
9 going to continue to stand at ease?
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Do as they
11 like, Conference at 12:00.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
13 will be a 12:00 o'clock midnight conference in
14 Room 332 of the Republican Majority. The Senate
15 will stand at ease.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Gold.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, on behalf
19 of -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold
21 on.
22 SENATOR GOLD: On behalf of
23 Senator Mendez, I'd like to announce a
2050
1 Democratic Conference at 11:59.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 Democratic Conference will be meeting in their
4 conference room at a minute before midnight.
5 (The Senate stood at ease from
6 11:50 p.m. until 12:30 a.m.)
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
8 Senate will come to order. Let's have a little
9 order, so we can hear Senator Present.
10 Senator Present.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Call up
12 Calendar Number 337.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
14 Secretary will read 337.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 337, Assembly Budget Bill, Assembly Print Number
17 1350-A, State Operations Budget Bill.
18 SENATOR PRESENT: I move we
19 accept the message of necessity that's at the
20 desk.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All in
22 favor of accepting the message of necessity, say
23 aye.
2051
1 (Response of "Aye.")
2 Those opposed nay.
3 (There was no response. )
4 The message is accepted. You can
5 read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
9 the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 4,
12 Senators Dollinger, Jones, Leichter and Pataki
13 recorded in the negative.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
15 bill is passed.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Present.
19 SENATOR PRESENT: Take up
20 Calendar 380, please.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 380,
22 Secretary will read it.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2052
1 380, Senator Stafford moves to discharge the
2 Committee on Finance from Assembly Bill Number
3 1351-A and substitute it for the identical
4 Senate Bill 651-A.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
6 Substitution is ordered.
7 You can read the last section.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Where is a
9 calendar? Could you just read the title of this
10 bill, please.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
12 Secretary will read the title of the bill for
13 Senator Leichter.
14 THE SECRETARY: Assembly Bill
15 Number 1351-A, Assembly Budget Bill, an act
16 making appropriations for the support of
17 government and to amend the Legislative Law, in
18 relation to the appointment of Secretaries of
19 the Finance and Ways and Means Committees and
20 certain committee redesignations, Legislature
21 and Judiciary Budget.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You can
23 read the last section.
2053
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
4 the roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll. )
6 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
7 the negative on Calendar Number 380 are Senators
8 DeFrancisco, Dollinger, Jones, Leichter, Pataki
9 and Stachowski. Ayes 55, nays 6.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
11 bill is passed.
12 Senator Present, that completes
13 our agenda for this evening.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
16 Gold.
17 SENATOR GOLD: How did Senator
18 Marino and I vote on that last one?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We
20 voted in the affirmative.
21 SENATOR GOLD: You're O.K.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
23 Present.
2054
1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
2 in behalf of Senator Levy, I'd like to announce
3 there will -- there'll be a Majority Conference
4 tomorrow at 11:30, promptly at 11:30.
5 There being no further business,
6 I -
7 SENATOR MENDEZ: Democratic
8 Conference at 11:30, promptly, tomorrow.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Well done.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
11 will be a Republican Conference at 11:30 prompt
12 in 332, and Senator Mendez says the Democratic
13 Conference will also be prompt at 11:30 in their
14 conference room.
15 Senator Present, do you have
16 anything else for us?
17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
18 there being no further business, I move that we
19 adjourn to the call of the Chair tomorrow
20 following the conferences.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
22 Senate will stand adjourned tomorrow at the call
23 of the Majority Leader at -- after our
2055
1 conferences.
2 (Whereupon at 12:34 a.m., the
3 Senate adjourned.)
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