Regular Session - April 1, 1993
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9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 April 1, 1993
11 7:53 p.m.
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14 REGULAR SESSION
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18 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President
19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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2057
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate
3 will come to order. Senators will find their
4 seats.
5 Please rise with me for the
6 Pledge of Allegiance to the flag.
7 (Whereupon, the Senate joined in
8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. )
9 Today, in the absence of visiting
10 clergy, we will bow our heads for a moment of
11 silence.
12 (Whereupon, there was a moment of
13 silence. )
14 Secretary will begin by reading
15 the Journal.
16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
17 Wednesday, March 31. The Senate met pursuant to
18 adjournment. Senator Farley in the Chair upon
19 designation of the Temporary President. The
20 Journal of Tuesday, March 30, was read and
21 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing
23 no objection, the journal will stand approved as
2058
1 read.
2 The order of business:
3 Presentation of petitions.
4 Messages from the Assembly.
5 Messages from the Governor.
6 Reports of standing committees.
7 Reports of select committees.
8 Communications and reports from
9 state officers.
10 Motions and resolutions.
11 Senator Libous.
12 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
13 President. I would like to offer up the
14 following privileged resolution and ask it be
15 read.
16 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
17 resolution, by Senator Libous, recognizing the
18 month of April 1993 as Alcoholism Awareness
19 Month in the state of New York.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Libous.
22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President.
23 I know the hour is late, and I won't take a long
2059
1 time but I just -- I think this is important
2 enough to make a couple of comments. As
3 chairman of the Senate Committee on Alcoholism
4 and Drug Abuse, I just want to point out that
5 April is Alcoholism Awareness Month, and I think
6 it is something that all of my colleagues in
7 this chamber should be very much aware of.
8 Just to cite a couple of examples
9 and some statistics, about 1.4 million New York
10 citizens suffer directly from the effects of
11 alcoholism.
12 And I just want to share a couple
13 of other points with you that I think are very
14 important: That 50 percent of all homicides and
15 forcible rapes in New York State, 70 percent of
16 all robberies, 65 percent of all child abuse
17 cases, and 70 percent of all series assaults
18 have alcohol that are dealing with those types
19 of assaults that affect American citizens and
20 particularly the citizens of New York State.
21 Alcoholism is a severe problem
22 that we do have. By making April Alcoholism
23 Awareness Month, I hope that all of my
2060
1 colleagues in this chamber will go forth and at
2 least keeping in their mind the fact that
3 alcoholism is something that we need to continue
4 to fight, something that we need to continue to
5 look at, whether it deals with alcohol and
6 driving, drunken driving, or these statistics
7 that I shared with you.
8 The other point that I want to
9 make before closing is that a recent survey of
10 high school students in grades 7 through 12 is
11 telling us that 11 percent call themselves
12 hooked on alcohol. Mr. President, I find that
13 and those statistics to be somewhat alarming,
14 and I ask for adoption of this resolution.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Gold.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Mr.
19 President. Will the Senator be kind enough to
20 open it up for co-sponsorship? I know there are
21 people who are interested.
22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Absolutely. I
23 would open that up for all my colleagues for
2061
1 co-sponsorship.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Please
3 approach the desk or let them know that you
4 would like to co-sponsor this alcoholism
5 resolution.
6 SENATOR LIBOUS: Could we include
7 all members unless someone does not wish to be
8 co-sponsor.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That's
10 strictly up to the Acting Majority Leader.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Certainly.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
13 objection, Senator Ohrenstein, do you want all
14 members on it?
15 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: No. Just
16 those who wish to.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Just
18 those. Senator Present, do you want all the
19 Republican members on it?
20 SENATOR PRESENT: All those who
21 want -- or deny that they don't want.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All
23 Republicans are going to be on it. Democrats
2062
1 approach the -- let the desk know if you wish to
2 be a sponsor.
3 On the resolution. All in favor,
4 say aye.
5 (Response of "Aye.")
6 Those opposed, nay.
7 (There was no response. )
8 The resolution is adopted.
9 Senator Holland.
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President.
11 Can you star my bill, S. 48 -
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold
13 on. I can't even hear you.
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President.
15 Can you star my bill, S. 48, Calendar 381,
16 please.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 bill is starred at the request of the sponsor.
19 Senator Kuhl.
20 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr.
21 President. On page 17, I offer the following
22 amendments to Calendar Number 273, Senate Print
23 2452, and ask that said bill retain its place on
2063
1 the Third Reading Calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 amendments are received. The bill will retain
4 its place.
5 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
7 Johnson.
8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
9 On page 17, I would like to place a sponsor star
10 on Calendar Number 260, Print Number 3140.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
12 bill is starred at the request of the sponsor.
13 Are there any other motions on
14 the floor?
15 Senator Present, we go to you.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
17 let's take up the non-controversial calendar.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Non
19 controversial calendar. Secretary will read
20 it.
21 THE SECRETARY: On page 12,
22 Calendar Number 63, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill
23 Number 191, an act to amend the Vehicle
2064
1 and Traffic Law.
2 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Lay it
3 aside.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
5 that bill aside.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 146, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number
8 2135A, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic
9 Law.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
11 the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
15 the roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll. )
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52, nays
18 one, Senator Holland recorded in the negative.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
20 bill is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 277, by Senator Levy.
23 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Lay it
2065
1 aside.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
3 aside.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 359, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate
6 Bill Number 3986, an act to amend Chapter 905 of
7 the Laws of 1986, amending the General Municipal
8 Law.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
11 aside.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 396, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 4064,
14 an act to amend the Tax Law and Chapter 713 of
15 the Laws of 1992 amending the Tax Law.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
17 the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
21 the roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53.
2066
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
2 bill is passed.
3 Senator Holland.
4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Could you, Mr.
5 President, please remove that star from S.48,
6 Calendar 381, until it is on third reading.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
8 star is removed from the bill.
9 Senator Present, that concludes
10 the non-controversial.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
12 Let's take up the controversial calendar.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
14 Controversial. The Secretary will read it.
15 THE SECRETARY: On page 12,
16 Calendar Number 63, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill
17 Number 191.
18 SENATOR LEVY: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
20 that bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 277, by Senator Levy.
23 SENATOR LEVY: Lay it aside.
2067
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
2 that bill aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 359, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate
5 Bill Number 3986, an act to amend Chapter 905 of
6 the Laws of 1986, amending the General Municipal
7 Law.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
10 Explanation has been asked for.
11 SENATOR LARKIN: The purpose of
12 this bill is to extend the specific facilities
13 portion of the IDA bill for the next 3 months.
14 There are many projects that are under way, more
15 specifically in New York City and some of our
16 larger cities across the state. Failure to
17 enact this for the next three months until we do
18 something with the IDAs will cause those
19 projects to go down the tubes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Leichter.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will Senator
23 Larkin yield, please?
2068
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
2 Larkin, will you yield to Senator Leichter?
3 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. I'm not
4 mean-spirited, by the way.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator,
6 I know you're not, and while some of your bills
7 maybe don't express the best of benefit to the
8 people of the state of New York, I would never
9 accuse you personally of being mean-spirited. I
10 know you're not.
11 But I am concerned about the
12 bill, and I wonder if you will yield?
13 Senator, you mentioned that there
14 are a number of projects of a specific nature
15 which are being financed through the IDA
16 mechanism. As you know, the IDA mechanism
17 provides for the abatement or elimination of
18 sales taxes. That has a definite consequence
19 not only for the locality but also for the state
20 of New York.
21 Can you tell us what projects,
22 what the dollar value of these projects are, so
23 that we can make some estimate of what the loss
2069
1 of revenue would be for the state?
2 SENATOR LARKIN: No, I can't give
3 you the exact number, Franz, but I can just tell
4 you this much here, that one of the problems
5 with this whole IDA was the agreements between
6 both houses. And the other house was supposed
7 to take it up today or probably tomorrow. But
8 the projects that are -- some of them are in
9 being and negotiated and would be in jeopardy if
10 this wasn't extended for the 90 days.
11 This will be part of the overall
12 IDA reform bill that, hopefully, we will do
13 before we leave here this session, and the
14 purpose of this was to not disrupt those that
15 are in progress right now.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
17 President. Would Senator Larkin yield for
18 another question?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Larkin?
21 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. M-m h-m-m.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Could you just
23 tell us one of the projects?
2070
1 SENATOR LARKIN: I don't have the
2 list right here with me.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: You cannot
4 tell us just one?
5 SENATOR LARKIN: I just answered
6 you that.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, you
8 know, I -- Mr. President. I guess I'm a bit
9 concerned because we're told that there are all
10 of these important projects that may go down the
11 drain, and then Senator Larkin can't tell us
12 what these projects are.
13 Just on the bill, I would
14 certainly feel more comfortable if I could have
15 some idea of what we're talking about and if we
16 could make some assessment of what the cost is
17 to the state. IDA is a terribly expensive
18 program. It's probably a program -- I won't say
19 probably. It is a program that is badly
20 flawed. I don't know whether it makes sense to
21 extend it to governmental projects, civic
22 projects, particularly when we don't even know
23 what these projects are.
2071
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
2 the last section.
3 Senator DeFrancisco. Did you
4 want to speak to the bill or explain your vote?
5 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I could
6 speak to the bill.
7 Since she's not here, I thought
8 maybe I would express this for her. I'm
9 familiar with a project that's going on in
10 Larraine Hoffmann's district. It's in the
11 university section. It's called "The Forum,"
12 and it's a physicians' building, a substantial
13 structure that's going to be built in Syracuse.
14 They are negotiating the thing right now. I
15 have had calls, and I know Larraine's had calls,
16 that if this isn't extended that project is
17 dead. And it's a very significant project in
18 the university area. And that's why I'm very
19 interested in this bill.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
21 the last section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
23 act shall take effect immediately.
2072
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
2 the roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
6 bill is passed.
7 Senator Present, that concludes
8 the calendar.
9 (Whereupon, there was a pause in
10 the proceedings. )
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
12 Present.
13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
14 I believe that Senator Galiber has something and
15 if you will bear with him for a minute.
16 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you very
17 kindly.
18 This is a motion to discharge,
19 and I appreciate the leadership here allowing me
20 this opportunity to deal with it.
21 This motion to discharge touches
22 concerns that are very interesting.
23 Yes?
2073
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Might
2 he read -- he would like to read this motion to
3 discharge.
4 Which one is it, Senator?
5 SENATOR GALIBER: I'm sorry. I
6 think it's 1668.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Do you
8 have that?
9 THE SECRETARY: Yes.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We have
11 that.
12 SENATOR GALIBER: There's two
13 there, but in the interest of time, very
14 frankly, I could allude to the -
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Take
16 them both together?
17 SENATOR GALIBER: -- second one
18 to save some time.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Thank
20 you.
21 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
22 Galiber, Senate Bill Number 1667A, an act
23 providing for the abolition of the New York City
2074
1 Central Board of Education and transferring the
2 functions, powers and duties heretofore
3 exercised to borough boards of education as
4 herein established.
5 Also, Senate Bill Number 1668, by
6 Senator Galiber, an act in relation to excising
7 the public schools in Bronx from the New York
8 City School District and establishing a Bronx
9 Borough Board of Education and providing for the
10 repeal of such provisions upon expiration
11 thereof.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Galiber, on the motion.
14 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes, Mr.
15 President. I will incorporate both of them.
16 The principal one that I'm concerned with is the
17 one which, in effect, abolishes 110 Livingston
18 Street.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: If you
20 will, there is an awful lot of conversation
21 going on in the chamber, and it's very difficult
22 for the stenographer and for the members to hear
23 Senator Galiber.
2075
1 Senator, please continue.
2 SENATOR GALIBER: This 110
3 Livingston Street expends some $140 million each
4 year. None of that money goes directly and in
5 my best judgment indirectly to the education of
6 our youngsters.
7 Education is key to our future,
8 it's key to our present, and it has been key to
9 where we are today. We have lost an entire
10 generation of youngsters. We are not educating
11 our youngsters in the state of New York; to a
12 larger degree not in our urban centers where the
13 future of the state and the future of the nation
14 hinges.
15 In the city of New York, we have
16 some 32 school decentralization districts.
17 Senator Marchi and I were here in the 1970s when
18 school decentralization became the order of the
19 day rising out of a political situation which
20 occurred in Brooklyn, and the bill that we had
21 ultimately was a political decision that was
22 made by a body of persons with a great deal of
23 influence with the UFT. Keep in mind,
2076
1 colleagues, a political decision.
2 I had the privilege to work with
3 Senator Marchi and Congressman now, Charles
4 Rangel; David Paterson's dad, Basil; and we
5 worked desperately on this piece of legislation,
6 and at the end when we put it altogether, it was
7 so horrible that Basil Paterson and myself voted
8 against that bill because it did absolutely
9 nothing to educate the youngsters of our city.
10 That time, history has shown that
11 that no vote was a tremendous vote. Like an old
12 wine the no vote was a good vintage meaning it
13 grew with time.
14 As the result of dissatisfaction
15 and criticism and concern about the education of
16 our youngsters, we tried for years to put
17 Band-Aids on it. Last year, the year before
18 last? Time goes by so fast. Senator, was it
19 three years ago or four years ago? We created
20 the so-called Marchi Commission -- not so
21 called. Called Marchi Commission. And rightly
22 so. Because no one has been more committed to
23 education in the state of New York than Senator
2077
1 Marchi has been.
2 What grew out of that school
3 governance committee -- the commissioners that
4 served on that commission, dedicated women and
5 men. I have been honored and privileged to
6 serve on a number of temporary commissions, task
7 forces, interested commissions, but never in the
8 history of my political life as a Senator have I
9 been privileged to serve with such great men and
10 women committed to the cause of education.
11 Unfortunately, as we went through
12 the process and we heard from all aspects of our
13 educational system, we understood that it was
14 almost a given, very frankly, that school-based
15 management was a good concept. School-based
16 management. We do not want to get in a
17 quagmire, if you will -- bogged down, if you
18 will, on whether the Dade County experiment
19 worked, whether school-based management was
20 better in Chicago or Rochester or through some
21 other demonstration programs.
22 But the sign posts were all there
23 through the the entire hearing that we were not
2078
1 educating our youngsters, and we had to make our
2 school districts and school decisions closer to
3 the neighborhoods, closer to the community.
4 Almost to a commissioner, everyone agreed that's
5 what had to happen, that we had to give to
6 principals a larger responsibility of decision
7 making. We had to commingle with the principals,
8 the teachers and the parents, who were concerned
9 about educating their youngsters. Everyone
10 agreed.
11 The difficulty, of course, was
12 after we heard all this excellent testimony and
13 came to that basic conclusion, there was an in
14 consistency between the findings and the
15 conclusion. The conclusion was that we would
16 retain 110 Livingston Street. That was
17 inconsistent with all the testimony. Because we
18 realized that 110 Livingston had outgrown its
19 usefulness, if it ever had any usefulness, and
20 we had to cut away and do away with that
21 bureaucracy.
22 I wrote a minority report. And,
23 my good colleagues, listen very carefully. Some
2079
1 of you might have missed it because they stuck
2 the minority report in the middle of the
3 report. And as reports go, most of the time we
4 don't read them. But the report was a very
5 simple one. It wasn't originated with Joe
6 Galiber. It was originated, early on, in the
7 '70s where those persons who had the foresight
8 to understand that smaller, in this instance,
9 was better for our youngsters if we really and
10 truly wanted to educate them.
11 And the minority report was a
12 simple one. It said that we want to take away
13 110 Livingston Street and give to each borough
14 and to each borough president the responsibility
15 for educating our youngsters. Not very
16 complicated. We would have a simple board. We
17 would have a board with one superintendent. We
18 would have the presidents of the board -- all
19 boards in that borough on it. The mayor of the
20 city of New York would have one designated
21 person -- ran a little contrary to the spirit of
22 what happened this year. The borough president
23 would have one, and then the City Council would
2080
1 be responsible for another person.
2 Within that frame, we would have
3 a superintendent who ultimately would have the
4 responsibility of hiring, in this bill. And we
5 all know of all the horror stories that we have
6 heard throughout the decentralization period of
7 time, where clubs, political clubs, faded away;
8 the school districts and the school boards and
9 the decentralization boards became the patronage
10 dispensers in our community. Horrible things
11 happened, focusing on who gets hired, who
12 doesn't get hired, what the structure was, but
13 never focusing on the youngsters in our school
14 district.
15 Now, the Governor this year
16 started out with a notion. So I can give the
17 flavor of what we are dealing with in our city
18 -- and we focus on what happens in our city
19 because you've got to understand the population
20 that we're dealing with -- one-third of all the
21 students are in the city of New York.
22 Let me take a negative and why we
23 from time to time argue with you that we have to
2081
1 take the concerns and the societal problems of a
2 particular area in order to look to the future
3 to solve some of these problems. From a
4 negative standpoint, 75 percent of our prison
5 population comes from the city of New York; 18
6 Assembly districts, if you will, account for
7 that 75 percent. Most of our dilapidated
8 housing centers are in the city of New York.
9 Job opportunities aren't there.
10 And some would say, Senator, what
11 has that to do with education? It has everything
12 to do with education. We spend our time and our
13 effort educating, and we spend less time later
14 on and less money later on dealing with the
15 population.
16 Back, Senator, to what the
17 Governor said in his State of the State
18 Message. The Governor said, "Look, we've got
19 over 600 different formulas of education
20 throughout our state. What we'll have to do is
21 to change these formulas."
22 And this bill and education is
23 timely, because I think perhaps one of the
2082
1 reasons why we are here tonight is because we
2 haven't got the educational formula together.
3 Every year, it's the same problem, so many
4 formulas, in order to satisfy so many
5 constituencies, never with a singular view of
6 educating our youngsters.
7 The Governor said, Let's do a
8 regional notion. "Let's cut it down to 15
9 regions possibly." Whether we cut it down to 15
10 or no, the fact of the matter is how are we
11 going about the business of educating our
12 youngsters.
13 This is one single issue that
14 there should be no difference on. We may differ
15 procedurally. Because, historically, motions to
16 discharge are procedural, someone said the other
17 night. Not in my best judgment. It may be a
18 procedure to get to the substantive matter which
19 is concerning ourselves with education. So I
20 don't think we should just slough off this time,
21 if you will, and say, "This is a Democrat who
22 has the only vehicle through which to get a bill
23 moved." It's not the bill. It's the substance
2083
1 that I'm referring to. Whether the bill comes
2 from your side or my side is irrelevant.
3 The fact of the matter is we need
4 this bill more so now for all the reasons that I
5 have mentioned. And I say over and over again,
6 we certainly are not educating our youngsters
7 and they are the future, when 80 percent of the
8 urban centers are the work forces of tomorrow.
9 And we're saying, "But, Senator,
10 this is a motion to discharge. It is a
11 procedural matter." Therefore, historically, we
12 have said, "Party vote in the negative," and on
13 rare occasions when I have some of my colleagues
14 who go to war with me -- no, skirmishes, because
15 war has a permanency attached to it -
16 skirmishes with me, saying, "Senator, we're not
17 going to vote with you;" therefore, there are
18 some exceptions.
19 The fact of the matter is that
20 this piece of legislation is not authored by Joe
21 Galiber. It is just brought to the top by Joe
22 Galiber at an opportune time when we recognize
23 that we weren't doing collectively and that we
2084
1 have to move toward doing something positive
2 now, not tomorrow. The fact of the matter is
3 that this piece of legislation is needed so
4 badly.
5 There are a few reports out. You
6 should read them, because they are saying simply
7 that: School-based management, decisions closer
8 to communities, involvement with the parents,
9 involvement with the communities, advisory
10 boards or counseling boards, taking away the
11 proper power, adding on where it's needed.
12 And some have suggested if we do
13 with 110 Livingston street at all -- and I go
14 along with it, very frankly -- is that perhaps
15 we should leave them in a position where, for
16 example, if you buy pencils for five school
17 districts, then you are going to get the rate -
18 the pencils cheaper in five boroughs -
19 somewhere in that capacity, and that's all, not
20 the dumping ground for those who have failed our
21 youngsters and are rewarded by placing them in
22 an institution where they do nothing but sit
23 behind a desk, not to be an arrogant institution
2085
1 which says, "Our children be damned; our
2 membership in a union is more important."
3 And, very frankly, colleagues,
4 the reason why the first decentralization bill
5 did not pass with any teeth and strength in it,
6 if you will, was the fact that the UFT
7 intervened, and they felt threatened by this.
8 And there are those of us who are
9 born with union concepts, support unions from
10 time to time, dislike the notion that we have to
11 choose up sides between the union membership or
12 our youngsters. Should not have to be that.
13 But there has to be a give and take. And if the
14 union is not willing to cooperate with us then,
15 collectively, we should go through the process
16 of taking or destroying or cutting away, and
17 that's what we have to do.
18 The commissioners that serve with
19 me, honorable men, and not the honorable men
20 that Shakespeare talked about when Antony did a
21 number at that particular point in time, but
22 honorable men and women with good intent but the
23 inability to focus on and continually to focus
2086
1 on what is really needed.
2 The UFT again came into play, and
3 they were so strong and so powerful that they
4 were able to convince some of my colleagues that
5 this was -- and some of my colleagues, in all
6 candor and honestly, not lacking in honesty or
7 integrity but felt perhaps this was the best
8 way. My subjective view. They put a contract
9 in. It's like strong lobbying.
10 And we all understand lobbying,
11 but there comes a time -- just like they did in
12 Jersey with the rifle association -- there comes
13 a time when the people speak out, and this is
14 the time, the people in the state of New York,
15 whatever your area may be, wherever you may
16 live, wherever you may educate your youngsters
17 in a better setting, perhaps, than the city of
18 New York. It makes it a lot easier.
19 Your superintendents, as we
20 write, make monies out in Nassau or Suffolk far
21 exceeding any other place. But that's
22 irrelevant to me. That's irrelevant to me. I
23 write on it. My colleagues and I have joined in
2087
1 some reports pointing this out, but for this
2 singular purpose, it doesn't matter. If you
3 want to could do away with the save harmless
4 throughout the state, change the formula -- we
5 would like in the city of New York to give us a
6 different formula. We are educating youngsters
7 at a low rate. You know it. You know it.
8 But no, we can't change those
9 formulas. What you can do -- what you can do,
10 keep your high paid superintendents in your
11 districts, keep your educational process that
12 you have if it's good, but give us in the city
13 of New York -- and it's only the city of New
14 York -- an opportunity to educate the bulk of
15 our future in this state, the youngsters who are
16 not educated. Let's put them to work. Let's
17 keep them out of jail. Let's let them be part
18 of the growth of New York State and this great
19 country of ours.
20 So, Mr. President, I ask in a
21 simple substantive motion, not a procedural
22 motion, to allow this bill to come out of
23 committee so that we can debate it. Because,
2088
1 secretly, if I were to take a poll, there is not
2 one person within the sound of my voice would
3 vote against this notion of educating our
4 youngsters in the state of New York.
5 I so move, Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
7 Galiber -- okay.
8 Senator Padavan, and then Senator
9 Marchi. There are several who want to speak to
10 it.
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator
12 Galiber, I first want to say very forthrightly
13 that I agree with virtually if not everything
14 you said and agree with both the spirit and the
15 direction of your proposal.
16 And as you have been talking and
17 as I have been trying to listen, I also
18 requested, through your counsel, copies. And I
19 presume your presentation and your point of view
20 expressed both 1668 and 1667A. So I would like
21 to comment on both those proposals.
22 Your observations relevant to the
23 efficacy of borough boards I think has garnered
2089
1 the attention of many people in the city of New
2 York. I, for one, have been working with some
3 responsible educational leaders, Carol Gresser
4 as an example, whose a member of the Central
5 Board from Queens, members of the Association of
6 Administrators, School Board Superintendents and
7 Principals, as well as others in trying to
8 develop an outline of how the best approach to
9 achieving your objectives could be brought
10 about.
11 One of several areas that kind of
12 become, if not stumbling blocks, areas that seem
13 to require more study or, if not study,
14 solutions, are ones that I would like to ask you
15 about and see if you have given them any
16 thought, and I'm going to ask them in total so
17 you can respond. I don't want it to be a Q and
18 A. I would just like to raise some of these
19 concerns or issues or points of view with you
20 and see what you think about them.
21 One of the issues raised was
22 relevant to certain centralized functions that
23 the board of education provides today that can
2090
1 best be categorized as capital assets: School
2 buildings, modernization, renovation, the School
3 Building Construction Authority which, while
4 independent, has oversight and a direct
5 connection to the board of education currently,
6 the citywide or centralized purchasing that
7 takes place currently by the board of education
8 for things such as supplies, books, computers, a
9 myriad of items that are purchased by
10 centralized purchasing agents presumably to get
11 the best possible price that are then
12 distributed around the city. How do we break
13 that up? That was the question. That is the
14 question.
15 I'm going to try and put them
16 together, Senator, then you can respond as you
17 see fit.
18 Another question that was raised
19 is collective bargaining. Within the Board of
20 Education, we have either the obvious entity the
21 UFT that represents all of the teachers, groups
22 that represent the administrators, other unions
23 that represent clerical employees, custodial
2091
1 employees. I'm not sure how many different
2 unions there are who participate in a collective
3 bargaining process with the city of New York and
4 with the board of education. How do we break
5 that up?
6 Your bill does address the issue
7 of an orderly transference of individuals in
8 terms of the their Civil Service status from the
9 borough board to the central board. So you have
10 taken care of that part.
11 But what I don't see and maybe I
12 just didn't pick it up quickly is the collective
13 bargaining aspect of how these people are hired
14 in the first place through the Department of
15 Personnel, the hiring process, the successor
16 that now exists to the old Board of Examiners,
17 which does centralized hiring and screening of
18 various categories within the Board of
19 Education. How do we break that up in an
20 efficient productive way?
21 Now, you have structured your
22 borough boards along the following lines -- if I
23 read it, as I say I read it quickly -- each
2092
1 superintendent and three other members; one from
2 the mayor, one from the borough president and
3 one from the council members-at-large as a
4 delegation. That seems like a reasonable
5 approach. It would vary in number, of course,
6 from borough to borough. Staten Island would
7 have a smaller one reflective of its
8 configuration.
9 There is some question, however,
10 that was raised about whether or not it may be
11 desirable, since we elect community school
12 boards, as to whether or not we should also
13 elect borough boards. Now, that has problems
14 and I can understand them. Politicizing the
15 borough board in that fashion could present
16 problems, but we do elect community school
17 boards. And then the superintendent, who is not
18 elected but appointed, and the superintendents
19 as a group would obviously be the dominant
20 category on your proposed borough board. Could
21 be good, could be bad. I'm not quite sure. But
22 it is certainly something that is being raised
23 as an area of further analysis.
2093
1 So, Senator, what I would like
2 you to do, if you would, is if you would respond
3 to these concerns that have been raised to me in
4 deliberations that I have had.
5 And before I sit down, let me
6 again repeat. I thank you for bringing this
7 issue to the surface in the fashion you have
8 done so. We would have been disposed to do so,
9 as well, except all the questions that I've
10 raised and others that I've probably forgotten
11 had not yet been resolved. I think if there is
12 any problem with your motion, it is that. Not
13 with your concept, not with your idea, and not
14 with the basic thrust of it.
15 If there is a problem, it's that
16 some of these questions are still unanswered,
17 either in terms of the minds of the people whose
18 expertise we rely upon or directly in your bill.
19 Sp, Senator, if you would give us
20 the benefit of your thoughts on some of these
21 issues, I would appreciate it.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
23 Galiber, did you want to respond?
2094
1 SENATOR GALIBER: First off, I
2 wanted to thank Senator Paterson for promising
3 me that he will follow in the footsteps of his
4 dad and support this motion to discharge, and
5 I'm in appreciation for that.
6 Senator Padavan, on the questions
7 that you asked, certainly they are excellent
8 ones, and they are things that were built into
9 this piece of legislation. If it is not all
10 spelled out, the spirit of what you are talking
11 about certainly is there.
12 And I know as well as you do.
13 First off, I alluded to it -- only I used
14 erasers, if you will, as an example -- that 110
15 Livingston Street certainly can deal with the
16 capital issues that you mentioned a lot better,
17 if you will, than the separate boards. Makes
18 good sense that we follow that pattern.
19 We voted on the school
20 construction bill some two or three years ago.
21 Time is running out on some of us, passing by
22 for others, but the fact of the matter is we
23 recognized that we needed an authority, and we
2095
1 needed it badly. Because with the local
2 government and the process we went through in
3 order to build a school, it took some ten years
4 or so. So they have done a fairly good job, the
5 school construction. So I agree with you as far
6 as that aspect of it. That's an easy part of
7 the piece of legislation that I have
8 introduced.
9 As far as the collective
10 bargaining, I again alluded to it, that most of
11 us are concerned about the constituents in our
12 schools and we want to take care of that portion
13 of it. Collective bargaining in my best
14 judgment, Senator, can be done. We can ask
15 everybody to make a bit of sacrifice. No, not
16 really sacrifice. It should be deemed or looked
17 upon as a change for a better purpose. Five
18 boroughs, there is not much to ask unions to
19 negotiate with if structured right. So I feel
20 that we can do that and accomplish that end with
21 merely a notion of collective bargaining with
22 the five boroughs.
23 Because what we strive for,
2096
1 again, when we went through the school
2 governance portion of the Marchi Commission that
3 I was privileged, as I said before, to serve on,
4 that there were those who hoped that we would
5 get to the point where we would almost have a
6 different form of governance that we viewed
7 outside of the city of New York as a
8 possibility. We pay a price for our
9 collectiveness in the city of New York. We pay
10 a price for the closeness and the contiguous
11 portion, almost contiguous portion of the five
12 boroughs.
13 That's why some of us don't want
14 you to leave, Queens. Some of us don't want you
15 to leave, Staten Island. Because there is a
16 uniqueness about it, and we have the ability to
17 make that uniqueness very powerful and strong in
18 terms of movement to educate our youngsters.
19 So we could ask those who are in
20 the union. Come back from the suburbia where
21 you live. In fact, the bill calls for a
22 residency requirement in the bill. It might be
23 a klinker to some. But again, the decisions,
2097
1 the commitment, the closeness, all those things
2 that came out.
3 So, Senator, I don't think it's
4 too much of a problem to ask the union to bend a
5 little bit.
6 Point two, if they are sincere,
7 and most of them are, 99 percent. They just
8 have a different discipline. They're concerned
9 about their constituents, which is the
10 membership, but they also should be concerned -
11 whether they live in New York or no, they should
12 be concerned about the education of their
13 youngsters. Given that, I can see them coming
14 in and doing a little bit of collective
15 bargaining.
16 The funding portion of it, that
17 wasn't mentioned. The funding would come from
18 the state and the City and then from the federal
19 government into the City, and those monies would
20 be equally disbursed based upon a formula
21 through the the five boroughs.
22 The elected boards, you alluded
23 to that. We still are kind of mixed about
2098
1 that. I don't know whether we should be
2 electing the boards, but if we did, I would have
3 no serious objection to it, very frankly. And
4 if you are looking for it in the bill, Senator,
5 it's not covered in that bill, very candidly.
6 It's not covered. But it's a notion that we
7 have to consider.
8 Chicago experience. They had a
9 demonstration program in Chicago where they have
10 the school-based management formula. And what
11 they did, they took this notion to the people,
12 took this motion to the people. Maybe a
13 referendum. We have the power. If we haven't
14 the strength or the commitment here, maybe the
15 people. As they did in Chicago, they voted for
16 it. And interestingly, Senator, there was about
17 a 35 percent turnout in that election. And you
18 know the horrible statistics that we have now on
19 school board elections on turnouts? Very, very
20 small. But they were so concerned, as we should
21 be concerned, about the education of the
22 youngsters that the parents of the youngsters,
23 the people in the community, those who had gone
2099
1 through experience in life, the old folks, and
2 those who were interested in the future, came
3 out and participated.
4 So if we elect the board, the
5 thrust of having one superintendent was to get
6 away from the notion of all the administrative
7 -- I almost think, very frankly, that someone
8 wisely put that notion of school boards not
9 being elected. Because that sounds democratic
10 and it's good. But the notion of allowing
11 them -- they delegated what administrative
12 charts call nondelegable responsibilities. They
13 gave to the board the power to hire principals
14 and hire all down the line, which I don't think
15 they should have.
16 But if it came to that, Senator,
17 I have no problem, because I think it's easily
18 resolved, whether we have an election for
19 borough boards or whether we have -- I just want
20 the present system not to be in place, whatever
21 we ultimately decide. So that's still open.
22 I think the people certainly have
23 to have a vote. And I think if structured
2100
1 properly, they will come out and participate
2 whether we do it -- as we argued, do it in a
3 general election or whether we should do it on
4 the side. The notion of a proportionate
5 representation would go out the window in my
6 best judgment.
7 We adopted that -- those of us
8 who have been around long enough. John Marchi,
9 you recall. There was a nice gentleman who came
10 through some time ago with a theory of
11 proportionate representation. Nice guy. We all
12 fell in love with him. But, also, we all got
13 suckered in, and we got suckered into a system
14 of proportionate representation which is
15 horrible. We just got suckered in, being nice
16 persons.
17 Those were the good days, when we
18 were nice, gentle, kind and loving to people but
19 we got sucked in for the wrong purpose.
20 So, Senator, I think your points
21 are well taken. I think there is definitely a
22 role for 110 Livingston Street. I don't like
23 what they have been doing up to present. I want
2101
1 to vitiate most of what they have been doing
2 because they have been doing it horrible. But
3 there is a role for them. And within the frame
4 of the questions that you asked, I just used
5 erasers in one instance. I agree with you the
6 School Construction Authority has been helpful.
7 And I think that, notwithstanding that, we can
8 still move and put this out on the floor.
9 And we know the process. It's a
10 business of amending and dealing with and I was
11 encouraged, very frankly, because when I floated
12 this bill some year or two ago, I was the lone
13 person on this piece of legislation, lone
14 person. I had a good friend of mine from your
15 county who left us too soon, Altman, Irwan
16 Altman, who served as a commissioner, a tough
17 administrator, good person, committed to
18 educating our youngsters. And before the Man
19 Upstairs decided to take him from us, too soon,
20 of course, he was beginning to say, "Joe, we
21 should maybe take another look at what we were
22 doing."
23 The superintendents of -- there
2102
1 is an association for the superintendents. I
2 don't have the name for them. They are now
3 advocating us. Singer is the president. We
4 have a borough president in Manhattan, a bit
5 ambitious, wants to run. She's come up with a
6 similar plan that I have here or that we have.
7 Because we collectively believe in what this
8 bill represents. We just don't want to bring it
9 out so we'd have an opportunity to pass it.
10 Because if it comes out, we will pass it.
11 So, Senator, your questions are
12 well taken. I think we have covered most of
13 them. The elections -- certainly we want people
14 to participate. We don't want to appoint
15 people, then we get too deeply involved in
16 politics.
17 So I think that notwithstanding,
18 we have the opportunity to change the formulas a
19 bit, if needed, share the responsibility, but
20 give to the -- give to these boards what we did
21 not give in the first decentralization bill.
22 You don't have the power if you don't have
23 control over your purse strings. You just don't
2103
1 have it, and we didn't give it to our school
2 boards.
3 Someone said, Senator, maybe it's
4 good, as history has recorded, good thing we
5 didn't do it. I don't believe that. It's just
6 that they had to go hat in hand to 110
7 Livingston, "Please, may I have a little money
8 for this program; change the formula for the
9 other program." We need to vitiate all that,
10 Senator.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
12 motion. We will take the first motion. We'll
13 vote on them separately.
14 SENATOR GALIBER: The only one
15 thing I wanted to add was that I would hope that
16 you would certainly move to discharge the bill,
17 the main piece of legislation. If you feel that
18 you still want to be quagmired with an
19 antiquated system which is doing horror for our
20 youngsters, then I ask you please, as we do from
21 time to time, something for my own districts.
22 And everybody should respond to that, something
23 for my own district. Discharge the
2104
1 demonstration bill that calls on separating
2 Bronx County from all of what I have said, and
3 let's demonstrate with what's in my backyard and
4 my county which certainly touches the concerns
5 of the youngsters who are attempting to be
6 educated in my county.
7 And the bill covers, if you will,
8 also -- Senator, the high schools would be
9 involved. They would not be separate as they
10 are now.
11 So there is two motions. If the
12 first one succeeds, and I hope so for the
13 benefit of all my colleagues in the city of New
14 York, and if that fails, please do the other
15 one. It's in my backyard.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
17 motion for the bill 1668. All in favor, say
18 aye.
19 (Response of "Aye.")
20 Those opposed, nay.
21 The motion -
22 (Laughter. )
23 I don't think -
2105
1 (Laughter. )
2 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President,
3 I don't hear one nay. I mean I need this
4 cooperation from you also -
5 (Laughter. )
6 Unless silence is consent as my
7 colleague has indicated.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Gee.
9 The motion is not accepted. Senator Marchi is
10 very loud.
11 SENATOR MARCHI: I'm not going to
12 speak on the bill, but I will explain my vote.
13 Senator, when there is a bill, a
14 real bill, I trust and hope you will be on it
15 because we have discussed that.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On
17 1667A. All in favor of the motion, say aye.
18 (A loud response of "Aye." )
19 (Laughter. )
20 All opposed.
21 (A loud response of "Nay." )
22 (Laughter. )
23 The motion is not accepted.
2106
1 Senator Present.
2 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
3 there being no further business, I would like to
4 announce that there will be a Majority
5 Conference tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. in the usual
6 conference room; that we adjourn this session
7 until 1:00 p.m. Saturday, April 3, intervening
8 days being legislative days.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
10 Tomorrow, there will be a Majority Conference in
11 332 at 1:00 p.m., intervening legislative day,
12 but there will be a session day on Saturday 1:00
13 p.m.
14 Senator Ohrenstein, you have an
15 announcement.
16 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: There will
17 be a Democratic Conference at 1:00 p.m. on
18 Saturday.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
20 will be a Democratic Conference at 1:00 p.m. on
21 Saturday.
22 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: 1:15? You
23 got it.
2107
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1:15 on
2 Saturday.
3 The Senate stands adjourned.
4 (Whereupon, at 8:47 p.m., the
5 Senate adjourned. )
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