Regular Session - April 19, 1993
2443
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9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 April 19, 1993
11 3:17 p.m.
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14 REGULAR SESSION
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18 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President
19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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2444
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate
3 will come to order. Senators will please find
4 their seats.
5 If you will please rise with me
6 for the Pledge of Allegiance.
7 (Whereupon, the Senate joined in
8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. )
9 Today, in the absence of clergy,
10 we will bow our heads for a moment of silent
11 prayer.
12 (Whereupon, there was a moment of
13 silence. )
14 Secretary will begin by reading
15 the Journal.
16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
17 Friday, April 16. The Senate met pursuant to
18 adjournment. Senator Bruno in the chair upon
19 designation of the Temporary President. The
20 Journal of Wednesday, April 14, was read and
21 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing
23 no objection, the Journal will stand approved as
2445
1 read.
2 The order of business.
3 Presentation of petitions.
4 Messages from the Assembly.
5 Messages from the Governor.
6 We have a message from the
7 Governor. The Secretary will read this message
8 to Senator Volker and others.
9 THE SECRETARY: The Governor
10 returned without executive approval Senate Bill
11 Number 200, Veto Number 1, an act to amend the
12 Penal Law, the Criminal Procedure Law, Judiciary
13 Law and the County Law, in relation to the
14 imposition of the death penalty in certain
15 additional instances and establishing a
16 procedure therefor.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay the
18 bill on the table, the veto. Lay the vetoed
19 bill on the table.
20 Reports of standing committees.
21 Reports of select committees.
22 Communications and reports from
23 state officers.
2446
1 Motions and resolutions.
2 Senator Johnson, first, I guess.
3 SENATOR JOHNSON: On behalf of
4 Senator Cook, I move to commit Senate Print
5 Number 2834, Calendar Number 352, to third
6 reading -- I guess now in third reading to the
7 Committee on Finance.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
9 bill is recommitted to Finance.
10 Senator Nozzolio.
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes. Mr.
12 President. I move that the following bills be
13 discharged from their respective committees and
14 be recommended with instructions to strike the
15 enacting clause: Senate Print Number 3992.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
17 objection.
18 Senator Wright.
19 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President.
20 On behalf of Senator Mega, on page number 5, I
21 offer the following amendments to Calendar
22 Number 133, Senate Print Number 1939, and ask
23 that the bill retain its place on the Third
2447
1 Reading Calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 bill will retain its place on the Third Reading
4 Calendar. Amendments are received.
5 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President.
6 On behalf of Senator Farley, on page number 15,
7 I offer the following amendments to Calendar
8 Number 370, Senate Print Number 2726, and ask
9 that said bill retain its place on the Third
10 Reading Calendar.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
12 Amendments received. The bill will retain its
13 place.
14 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President.
15 On behalf of Senator Sears, on page number 12, I
16 offer the following amendments to Calendar
17 Number 339, Senate Print Number 3452, and ask
18 that the bill retain its place on the Third
19 Reading Calendar.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
21 objection, the bill will retain its place.
22 Senator Stachowski.
23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr.
2448
1 President. I move that the following bill be
2 discharged from its committee and be recommitted
3 with instructions to strike the enacting clause:
4 Senate Print 754.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is
6 recommitted and enacting clause will be struck.
7 Are there any other motions on
8 the floor?
9 Senator Present.
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
11 Let's take up the non-controversial calendar,
12 please.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
14 Non-controversial. The Secretary will read.
15 THE SECRETARY: On page 5,
16 Calendar Number 90, by Senator DeFrancisco,
17 Senate Bill Number 1921A, an act to amend the
18 Highway Law, in relation to designating a
19 portion of the state highway system as the
20 Veterans of Foreign Wars Memorial Highway.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
22 the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2449
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 bill is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: On page 11,
9 Calendar Number 334, by Senator Saland.
10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
11 aside.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay that
13 bill aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 343, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
16 1357, an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY Read the
18 last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
22 the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2450
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 bill is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 344, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
6 1703, an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law,
7 in relation to providing an exemption for
8 capital construction costs.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
10 the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
14 the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 bill is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 345, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 1985,
21 an act to amend the Executive Law, in relation
22 to authorizing the state office for the aging to
23 establish a social model.
2451
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
2 the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
6 the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
10 bill is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 347, by Senator -
13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
14 aside.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
16 that bill aside.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 349, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 1964,
19 authorize the payment of transportation aid to
20 Newburgh Enlarged City School District.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
22 is a local fiscal impact note here at the desk.
23 Read the last section.
2452
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
4 the roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll. )
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
8 bill is passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 350, by Senator LaValle.
11 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
12 aside.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
14 that bill aside.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 351, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
17 2802, an act to amend the Education Law, in
18 relation to fish study grants.
19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Can we get
20 one day on this one?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Johnson?
23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
2453
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay the
2 bill aside for the day.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 353, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 3864,
5 an act to amend the -
6 SENATOR MARCHI: Lay it aside.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
8 aside.
9 SENATOR MARCHI: Last section.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
11 the last section of that bill, Senator Cook's
12 bill, 353.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
16 the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll. )
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
20 bill is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 354, by member of the Assembly Bragman, Assembly
23 Bill Number 1959, an act to amend Chapter 53 of
2454
1 the Laws of 1804.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
3 the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
11 bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 357, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number
14 3287, legalize, validate, ratify and confirm the
15 acts of the town board.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
17 the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
21 the roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
2455
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
2 bill is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 361, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 194, an
5 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
7 the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
11 the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48, excuse
14 me. Ayes 47, nays 1. Senator DeFrancisco
15 recorded in the negative.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
17 bill is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 362, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 2539A,
20 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
22 the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2456
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. Nays
6 1. Senator DeFrancisco recorded in the
7 negative.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
9 bill is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 363, by Senator Sheffer, Senate Bill Number
12 2855, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic
13 Law.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
15 the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
19 the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
23 bill is passed.
2457
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 364, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 3026,
3 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
5 the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
9 the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48. Nays
12 1. Senator Pataki recorded in the negative.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
14 bill is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 365, by Senator Stafford.
17 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
19 aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 367, by Senator Cook.
22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
23 aside.
2458
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
2 aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 368, by Senator Farley, Senate Bill Number 1595,
5 an act to amend the Banking Law and the Criminal
6 Procedure Law.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
8 the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
12 the roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
15 President. May I please be excused from voting
16 on this bill.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
18 objection, Senator Leichter abstains.
19 Call the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
23 bill is passed.
2459
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 371, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 471, an
3 act to amend the Railroad Law and the Public
4 Authorities Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
6 the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
14 bill is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 372, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 1002,
17 Vehicle and Traffic Law, prohibiting disposition
18 of DWI offenses.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
20 the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
2460
1 the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
5 bill is passed.
6 No, there's some negatives here.
7 THE SECRETARY: Excuse me.
8 Calendar 372: Ayes 49. Nays 1. Senator
9 DeFrancisco recorded in the negative.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
11 bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 375, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 2076,
14 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
16 the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
20 the roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
2461
1 bill is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 376, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 2715,
4 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
6 the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
14 bill is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 378, by Senator Daly.
17 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
18 aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
20 that bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 379, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number
23 3691, Social Services Law.
2462
1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
2 aside.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
4 aside.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 382, by Senator Holland.
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Star the bill.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Star
9 the bill at the request of the sponsor.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 384, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 3583,
12 an act to amend the Education Law, in relation
13 to making certain -
14 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
15 aside.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
17 aside.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 385, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number -
20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
21 aside.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
23 aside.
2463
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 386, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 3109,
3 an act to amend the Education Law, in relation
4 to increasing penalties for violations.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
7 aside.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 388, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 3515A.
10 SENATOR SMITH: Lay it aside.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
12 aside.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 389, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number
15 3721, Education Law, in relation to enacting the
16 Higher Education Community Service Act.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
22 the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2464
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 bill is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 390, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number
6 1051, Agriculture and Markets Law, in relation
7 to the sale and licensure of farm products.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
9 the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
13 the roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll. )
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
17 bill is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 391, by Senator Present.
20 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
21 for the day.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
23 aside for the day.
2465
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 392, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number
3 2610, Agriculture and Markets Law.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
5 the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
9 the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
13 bill is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 393, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3182,
16 Agriculture and Markets Law.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
22 the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2466
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
2 aside. Withdraw the roll call.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 394, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3336,
5 Agriculture and Markets Law.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
7 the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
11 the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
15 bill is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 395, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3414,
18 Agriculture and Markets Law.
19 SENATOR KUHL: Lay it aside for
20 the day, please.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
22 aside for today.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2467
1 413, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Bill
2 Number 4363, an act to amend the Public Health
3 Law.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
6 aside.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
8 aside.
9 Senator Present, that's the first
10 time -
11 Senator Daly, why do you rise?
12 SENATOR DALY: On page 19,
13 Calendar Number 91 -- I'm sorry, Calendar Number
14 93, Senate Bill Number 1106A, would you remove
15 the star from that bill, please.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Star is
17 removed at the request of the sponsor.
18 Senator Present.
19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
20 would you recognize Senator Skelos, please.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We can
22 do that.
23 Senator Skelos.
2468
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
2 is there a privileged resolution at the desk?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
4 is one.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: I would like to
6 have it read in its entirety.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
8 Secretary will read Senator Skelos' resolution
9 in its entirety.
10 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
11 Resolution, commemorating the 50th Anniversary
12 of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising upon the occasion
13 of the observance of Yom-Hashoah-the Day of
14 Remembrance.
15 Whereas, it is the sense of this
16 Legislative Body to commemorate the 50th
17 Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
18 On April 19, 1943, on the eve of
19 Passover, a band of 700 fighters, some as young
20 as teenagers, took on the Third Reich.
21 For 27 days, this cadre of
22 resistance fighters fought the German Army with
23 pistols and homemade bombs.
2469
1 The genesis of the resistance had
2 been fueled by the German occupation of Warsaw
3 in 1940; they walled off a mile and a half of
4 the city in which nearly a half million Jews
5 from Warsaw and Central Poland were forced to
6 live.
7 Impossible living standards
8 brought about disease; starvation was a daily
9 reality that caused thousands of deaths.
10 During the next three years,
11 resettlement had sent 350,000 Jews to a human
12 extermination camp in Treblinka.
13 Despite the odds against them,
14 the resistance fighters vowed to not die on
15 their knees; they refused to succumb to Nazi
16 tyrrany marking the first instance of an
17 uprising by an urban population in German
18 occupied Europe.
19 The only means by which the
20 Germans could stop the uprising was to burn the
21 ghetto to the ground, building by building.
22 In the hearts and minds of the
23 survivors, the Warsaw Ghetto lives.
2470
1 Upon the occasion of the 50th
2 Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, it is
3 the sense of this Legislative Body to recognize
4 the courage and bravery of those who struggled
5 for freedom in the Warsaw Ghetto.
6 For those who will not learn from
7 the lessons of history, there is no hope; their
8 end is most assuredly assigned; the world which
9 they seek to undo is irrevocably anchored in the
10 heroism of the Jewish people; this is the source
11 of Jewish resistance to the reactionary area
12 forces of oppression, the unquenchable yearning
13 to be free, a determination so indigenous to
14 those traditions of religious and cultural
15 identification which define the Jewish
16 heritage.
17 The desire for freedom, for
18 self-determination, upon the part of the Jewish
19 people, touches the hearts of all; it transcends
20 the advocates of mindless retrenchment; it frays
21 and shreds the mantle of pure blind indifference
22 which so cruelly seeks to rewrite the tragic
23 history of Jewish suffering; arching across the
2471
1 great Atlantic, it strikes a resonant chord upon
2 the American bell of freedom.
3 It is the voice which this
4 Legislative Body hears, the voice of those who
5 suffered and died in the Warsaw Ghetto, whose
6 sons and daughters have so manifestly
7 contributed to the cause of America's freedom,
8 whose commitment to human dignity is so visibly
9 mirrored in the spiritual dimensions of the
10 Zionist movement.
11 Now, therefore, be it resolved,
12 that this Legislative Body pause in its
13 deliberations to commemorate the 50th
14 Anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising; and
15 be it further
16 Resolved, that a copy of this
17 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted
18 to the Jewish Community Relations Council.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Skelos.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
22 At times, it's human nature to try to blot out
23 from our memory those occurrences which are very
2472
1 negative and very horrible.
2 The purpose of this resolution is
3 not only to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of
4 the uprising in Warsaw but also to remind us as
5 legislators, to remind us as parents, to remind
6 us as human beings, that the horrible events of
7 the Holocaust did occur despite the fact that
8 there are many revisionists of history who would
9 try to say that it did not.
10 It is incumbent upon all of us to
11 remind our children, to remind our grand
12 children of the horrors of the Holocaust so that
13 it may never occur again.
14 And I would be honored if any
15 member would like to co-sponsor this resolution
16 to so indicate to the desk, and I move the
17 adoption of the resolution.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Before
20 Senator Gold speaks, could I have the names of
21 anybody or the desk have the names of people who
22 would like to co-sponsor this resolution.
23 Senator Gold? You seem to be
2473
1 standing.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Thank you,
3 Mr. President.
4 Mr. President. Too often we see
5 situations where we use words, and the words
6 have a familiar ring and they sound right, but
7 we really don't get into the words more than
8 that. I found out, for example, in hearings I
9 held on gun legislation that people nod their
10 heads in agreement, but they don't really
11 understand it. But if you show them guns and
12 talk about it, they understand it.
13 This resolution has on the bottom
14 of page 2 -- and I think Senator Skelos already
15 referred to it, but it says, "Those who will not
16 learn the lessons of history..." and then it
17 goes on.
18 We are aware that there are
19 people who are dedicated to the proposition that
20 as each year goes by they will convince more and
21 more people that the Holocaust never occurred
22 and that the atrocities of the Nazi regime never
23 occurred. They do it in very, very subtle
2474
1 ways. They will, for example, encourage
2 seminars to discuss the Holocaust. And one of
3 the questions involved in the seminar they want
4 to be, quotes, "whether it ever happened?"
5 In the back of their mind is that
6 50 years from now or 100 years from now someone
7 will see that brochure and say, "You see, way
8 back in the 1990s, they were even questioning
9 whether it even occurred."
10 I read the paper today, and there
11 was an article about what is happening in
12 another part of the world today and how tyrrany
13 in that part of the world is already mirroring
14 what happened in the Holocaust. It spoke of
15 rape alleys where Moslem young women are taken
16 by the invaders and brutalized six, seven times
17 a night. And as I read those stories, while it
18 was not Jewish women involved, Moslem women,
19 unfortunately, the mirroring of the situations
20 was all too evident.
21 It is very uncomfortable for me,
22 and I'm sure for many people in this chamber and
23 certainly for millions of people in the world,
2475
1 to view some of the programs that are repeated
2 so often on television which show the World War
3 II closing years and the aftermath when they
4 discovered -- not only discovered, but they were
5 actually there with the photographic evidence
6 and cameras of what happened in the Holocaust.
7 And I want to congratulate
8 Senator Skelos and everyone who is involved with
9 this resolution because you've got to keep
10 telling it and you've got to repeat it and, just
11 as all of us who have our own various religious
12 beliefs know, that much of religion is the
13 repetition of history and the study of history.
14 So, for example, on the Passover night, the
15 service, the Passover Seder, we review the
16 history; and during the most religious days in
17 the Jewish calendar, we read of the history of
18 tortures to people; and those same types of
19 tortures have been showered upon, not by choice,
20 Christians, Moslems, people of all faiths and
21 all walks of life.
22 And as uncomfortable as it is,
23 there is no excuse to ever stop repeating the
2476
1 tales and telling the stories, lest we by
2 neglect give in to those in our society who are
3 waiting for the day when they can increase
4 credibility to the spurious and disgusting
5 argument that these horrible events never took
6 place. The memorials, the services, the
7 parades, the events of the last few days and of
8 this week which, once again, highlight these
9 atrocities are very important.
10 And I'm delighted that this house
11 is joining with people throughout the world to
12 stand up against this type of inhumane treatment
13 of human beings. I'm delighted to be a
14 co-sponsor. And as one of my colleagues, years
15 ago -- may he rest in piece -- in the Assembly
16 said, I not only, Senator Skelos, accept your
17 words, I accept your English. It is a well
18 written resolution, and I'm proud that we are
19 passing it today.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
21 resolution. All those in favor, aye.
22 (Response of "Aye.")
23 Those opposed, nay.
2477
1 (There was no response. )
2 The resolution is unanimously
3 adopted.
4 Senator Present.
5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
6 Would you recognize Senator Tully, please.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, I
8 will.
9 Senator Tully.
10 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr.
11 President. You have a resolution before you
12 dealing with a Mr. Alfredo Kraus?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, we
14 do.
15 SENATOR TULLY: May I ask it be
16 read, please.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 Secretary will read the resolution. In its
19 entirety, Senator Tully, or the title?
20 SENATOR TULLY: The title,
21 please.
22 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
23 Resolution, by Senators Tully, Goodman, and
2478
1 others, commending opera tenor Alfredo Kraus
2 upon the occasion of his 27th season at the
3 Metropolitan Opera in New York City, to be
4 commemorated at a reception on April 19, 1993.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Tully.
7 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
8 President. Throughout the month of April, the
9 distinguished opera tenor Alfredo Kraus will be
10 performing at the Metropolitan Opera in New York
11 City. Mr. Kraus, a gifted lyrical tenor, has
12 been endowed with a rich and intense, warm voice
13 which has established him as a monument in the
14 opera world for nearly 36 years.
15 However, we honor Mr. Kraus for
16 more than simply his unparalleled singing
17 ability. We honor him for his long and
18 sustained commitment to inspiring appreciation
19 for opera as an art in the general public. More
20 importantly, however, we honor him for his work
21 with aspiring young performers whom Mr. Kraus
22 teaches and advises.
23 This evening Alfredo Kraus will
2479
1 be celebrated at a reception in his honor in New
2 York City, and I hope that all of my colleagues
3 will join with me and Senator Goodman in
4 welcoming him to New York for his 27th season at
5 the Metropolitan Opera.
6 Thank you, Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
8 resolution. All those in favor, say aye.
9 (Response of "Aye.")
10 Those opposed, nay.
11 (There was no response. )
12 The resolution is adopted.
13 Senator Present.
14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
15 Can we take up the controversial calendar,
16 please.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
18 Secretary will read the controversial calendar.
19 THE SECRETARY: On page 11,
20 Calendar Number 334, by Senator Saland, Senate
21 Bill Number 796, an act to amend the General
22 Business Law.
23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation.
2480
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
2 aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 347, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 47,
5 an act to authorize the Salvation Army Eastern
6 Territory School for Officers Training to change
7 its name to the Salvation Army Training College.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
9 Explanation has been asked for. Lay it aside.
10 Hold it up just a minute.
11 Senator Present.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay that bill
13 aside, temporarily.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
15 aside temporarily.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 350, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number
18 2672, an act to amend the Education Law, in
19 relation to the apportionment of aid to certain
20 reorganized school districts.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
22 Explanation. Senator LaValle.
23 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President.
2481
1 This legislation would add to the law dealing
2 with school district reorganization, a school
3 district that reorganizes -- a union free school
4 district that reorganizes with a nonoperating
5 school district. Most specifically, this
6 legislation deals with the situation in which
7 the South Manor School District, which is a
8 union free school district, reorganized with the
9 West Manor School District that sent about 50
10 students, after a vote by both the South Manor
11 School District and the West Manor School
12 District, understanding -- people having an
13 understanding that there would be incentive aid,
14 reorganization incentive aid, once such
15 reorganization took place.
16 Unfortunately, they found out
17 that the law did not specifically provide for a
18 non-operating school district; and, thereby, the
19 South Manor School District, the newly
20 reorganized district, is denied reorganization
21 aid.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
2482
1 Leichter.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Briefly on the
3 bill. We debated this last year. But I'm
4 troubled with the idea where people proceed
5 under a totally false assumption, which Senator
6 LaValle concedes was the case here, and we
7 should thereupon change the law because they
8 received wrong advice; they didn't understand
9 what was happening. I mean this is different
10 than where you have a single individual who may
11 not have been told what his or her rights were
12 under a pension system, and I think we have all
13 had a little problem with that.
14 But here, as I understand it, and
15 correct me, Senator LaValle, if I'm wrong,
16 people voted to consolidate not being aware of
17 the fact that they were not entitled to the
18 consolidation aid for the law just didn't
19 provide for it.
20 There must have been hundreds of
21 people. There must have been counsels. There
22 must have been other people who were advising
23 them, and the information may have been wrong.
2483
1 You say it was wrong. But are we as a
2 Legislature, are we as a state when somebody
3 gets up and makes a totally false statement and
4 says, "If you do this, you are going to get
5 state aid," and it's wrong, then people may
6 listen to that individual, they may do this act,
7 they find out they are not entitled to state
8 aid, we have to change the law? I'm troubled by
9 that, Senator.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
11 LaValle.
12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President.
13 On the bill. This legislation was filed because
14 individuals voted in good faith in what they
15 believed was a situation that a newly
16 reorganized district accepting 50 students from
17 the West Manor School District would yield
18 reorganization incentive aid. As a matter of
19 fact, and I think members here are well aware
20 that, today, there have been studies and calls
21 for reorganization of school districts
22 throughout this state. And in Suffolk County,
23 people use as almost a battle cry, "Remember the
2484
1 Alamo," "Remember the Maine," "Remember what
2 happened in South Manor," where two school
3 districts and the people in good faith voted to
4 reorganize and they got stiffed because someone
5 in reading the law said, Well, it could go
6 either way and if we only put in a provision to
7 clearly define that a nonoperating district
8 reorganizing with a union free school district
9 would receive incentive aid, then we can allow
10 this to happen. That was an interpretation by
11 the Department.
12 So I think it is very, very
13 unfair at a time when we're trying to get school
14 districts to reorganize, when we are trying to
15 get people to go the extra mile and bring school
16 districts together -- and let me tell you,
17 Senator Leichter, while today or at the time the
18 vote was taken we were talking about 50
19 students, this area -- had we not had the
20 reorganization to take place, this area is wide
21 open for development and that school district
22 would have gone from being a nonoperating school
23 district with 50 students to a school district
2485
1 with hundreds of students, and they would have
2 been forced into a situation to build buildings,
3 hire teachers, and we would have been moving in
4 just the direction we do not want to go.
5 So I think that this legislation
6 -- we passed it last year. This year,
7 Assemblyman DiNapoli and Assemblyman Sawicki in
8 the other house have sponsored this, and I'm
9 hopeful that we can pass this and get the
10 Governor to sign it not only because it will
11 provide the incentive aid that people thought
12 would be coming to the newly reorganized
13 district but because it sends the right signal
14 that the state will meet its commitments to the
15 people when they hold a vote to take a
16 particular action.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
19 Leichter.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will Senator
21 LaValle yield?
22 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, he
2486
1 will.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
3 just want to clarify something. I said I will
4 accept your statement that people misunderstood
5 what the law was. Did anybody contact the
6 Department of Education and say, "If we do this,
7 will we be entitled to this consolidation aid?"
8 Did they get wrong information from the
9 Department of Education? If they did, I would
10 change my view, but did anybody ask the
11 Department?
12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as I
13 recall, this was not done -- this vote -- on a
14 whim and fancy of two districts, and we have had
15 discussions with the Department. I believe that
16 the Department probably is taking no position,
17 but I do not believe they are opposed to this
18 legislation.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, Senator,
20 my question is that when you come before us and
21 say, "Listen, hundreds of people made a mistake;
22 they didn't understand what the law was," what
23 did they do to try to understand the law? Who
2487
1 told them that you are going to get this aid? If
2 it was a government official, then, Senator,
3 maybe we're obligated. But if some guy gets up
4 on a stump and makes a perfectly ridiculous
5 statement, and we then have to change the law, I
6 don't see that.
7 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator,
8 without first-hand knowledge, it is very
9 difficult to say who said what. But let me say
10 -- and just this very day, I had a meeting, my
11 office, school district, and people from the
12 Department. And the reason we had that meeting
13 today -- it's a separate matter -- is because
14 someone in the Department had said something and
15 the school district believed that it had the
16 authority to move ahead. The South Manor/West
17 Manor situation meets that test, and I told my
18 school districts unless you get it in writing
19 from the Department, unless you get it in
20 writing, it is just someone giving you their
21 view. And they may say, Well, I think it's all
22 right. I think it's aidable. But when we move
23 ahead, the counsel's office may have a different
2488
1 view. And I can tell you, and people who have
2 dealt with the Department will know, that an
3 assistant commissioner or a bureau chief will
4 give an approval where someone higher up or in
5 the counsel's office will say, "I'm sorry, you
6 gave the school district the wrong point of
7 view."
8 And that's really what I am
9 saying. I am saying that they understood the
10 Department to say that they were going to
11 receive incentive aid.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator,
13 as I understand what you just said before is you
14 have no proof, no knowledge, that anybody of the
15 Department ever said to them, You are going to
16 receive this aid. Furthermore, I agree with the
17 advice that you gave your constituents in a
18 totally separate situation, which is, get it in
19 writing.
20 But let me ask you something. If
21 we vote this bill, and it is passed by the
22 Assembly and it is signed into law, what is
23 going to be the cost of the consolidation aid
2489
1 that is going to have to be paid out of the
2 treasury of the state.
3 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as you
4 know, incentive aid is paid both on operating
5 aid and also for any -- any building aid that
6 might come due. And for the '93-94 school year,
7 the operating aid that would be generated would
8 be 612,000, and the building aid would be
9 16,000, and then this would increase to about a
10 million dollars in operating aid thereafter and
11 about $27,000 in building aid thereafter for -
12 for a period of five years, a period of five
13 years.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: So we're
15 talking roughly -
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Leichter.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You two
20 are having a very nice conversation, and we
21 appreciated that. But if you could, direct your
22 questions through the chair.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think your
2490
1 point is well taken, Mr. President. I'm sorry.
2 I wonder if Senator LaValle will yield to
3 another question.
4 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I will.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: So we're
6 talking somewhere, as I get it, of about 6
7 million to $7 million, a total of both operating
8 and capital construction aid. Senator, if that
9 money is paid to this school district, will that
10 not take money from other school districts under
11 the formula?
12 SENATOR LAVALLE: No, Senator.
13 Because one of the things that we do annually
14 with the state aid formula is that there are
15 provisions, as you see from this bill, that deal
16 with reorganization aid. We set aside within
17 the formula amounts of money in what we estimate
18 will be from possible reorganizations that will
19 take place across the state. So we don't put
20 zero in the account. We have to allocate some
21 monies for reorganization incentive aid.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
23 Leichter.
2491
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
2 President. Let me just point in reference to
3 the last question I asked Senator LaValle and
4 his answer that this is retroactive. It's sort
5 of like an ex post facto law, if you will, and
6 we certainly haven't put anything in
7 contemplation of a district that already
8 consolidated under the old law where they
9 weren't entitled to any money. So I think it
10 may very well impact on your individual school
11 districts.
12 But I revert again to the
13 question I raised which really troubles me and
14 leads me to vote against this bill, where there
15 is no credible proof whatsoever that any state
16 official misled these school districts, where
17 there is no proof that they made prudent
18 inquiries as to whether they were going to be
19 entitled to the consolidation aid. And while
20 Senator LaValle -- and I'm sure that he states
21 accurately his knowledge that people voted on
22 the mistake of law, do we now have to change the
23 law and saddle the state with a burden of $7
2492
1 million?
2 Now, maybe the law should have
3 been changed before. Maybe this school district
4 and other school districts should have been
5 entitled to avail themselves of consolidation
6 incentive. But that was not the law. I mean I
7 think there's a basic principal involved here
8 that goes beyond the school district wanting to
9 do a nice favor for Senator LaValle's
10 constituents. He would look good. I'm sure he
11 looks good there already because he is an
12 excellent legislator, but I think you have a
13 real problem if you proceed on this basis and
14 change the law retroactively.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
16 the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
20 the roll. Oh, before you call the roll, there
21 is a local fiscal impact note here at the desk.
22 You can call the roll. Go ahead.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2493
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52. Nays
2 3. Senators Leichter, Onorato and Solomon
3 recorded in the negative.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
5 bill is passed.
6 Senator Present.
7 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
8 Can we return to Calendar 347, Senator Holland's
9 bill that was temporarily laid aside, earlier.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Sure.
11 Senator Holland -- we'll call up 347, Mr.
12 Secretary.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 347, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 47,
15 authorize the Salvation Army Eastern Territory
16 School for Officers Training to change its name.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
19 Gold.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator
21 yield to one question?
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, there is
2494
1 a memo, as you know, from the state Education
2 Department, and they claim that their concern is
3 the word "college"; that they wouldn't object to
4 "institute" or some other type of word being
5 used, and I just would like your comments on
6 their memo.
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: There are two
8 business schools that are called colleges,
9 Senator. They are the Jamestown Business
10 College and the Albany Business College. There
11 are 22 Salvation Army schools throughout the
12 world, and just the four in the United States
13 are not called colleges. The four Salvation
14 schools are in Georgia, California, Illinois and
15 Suffern, New York, in my district.
16 They were called colleges until
17 1956 when the state requested that they not be
18 called colleges any more. I would just ask that
19 this bill be passed.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
22 the last section.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President.
2495
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Oh,
2 does somebody want to speak on this?
3 Senator Stavisky.
4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Will the
5 Senator please yield for a question?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Sure.
7 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator, what
8 are the standards and requirements that an
9 institution of higher learning needs in order to
10 be incorporated as a college that this
11 institution fails to meet? Simple question.
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I
13 don't know. This school does not meet it, you
14 are absolutely correct. But this is just a
15 conformity situation. As I said, there are 22
16 throughout the world. We would just like to
17 make this be done also. We're not asking for
18 anything. They're not asking for anything from
19 the state or the federal government.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: I have no
21 objection providing that there is not a
22 misleading of the public, the consumers, the
23 students who go to an institution known as a
2496
1 college, and are given at least a reasonable
2 assurance by the standards imposed by the state
3 Education Department that it meets the
4 requirements for being called a college;
5 otherwise, we can pick out many wonderful places
6 in the state of New York. Poof! You're a
7 college. And I don't think we should have poof
8 you're-a-college legislation if they fail to
9 meet requirements. What about faculty
10 standards? What about library standards? What
11 about the resources that are needed?
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, this
13 is a training school to train officers of the
14 Salvation Army. It's basically a religious
15 institution training school. It's not a regular
16 college, not intended to be, does not pretend to
17 be, and will accept no students other than the
18 ones that are provided for the Salvation Army.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
20 the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
2497
1 the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55, nays 1.
4 Senator Jones recorded in the negative.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
6 bill is passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 365, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number
9 1536, an act to amend the Correction Law.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
12 temporarily.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
14 aside temporarily.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 367, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2754,
17 an act to amend the Correction Law and the Civil
18 Practice Law and Rules.
19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
21 Explanation. Senator Cook.
22 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President.
23 The bottom line on this bill is that it
2498
1 basically treats the college education provided
2 to inmates in correctional facilities as a
3 college loan and requires that those persons who
4 have benefited from that service that's provided
5 while they're in prison, once they are released,
6 should repay that loan not unlike every other
7 student in the state who requires a loan for
8 attending college and who has to pay for it once
9 they're graduated. The bill provides a 10-year
10 repayment period, which I think is in line with
11 most other kinds of college loans, and I think
12 it's only a reasonable thing to do.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Stavisky.
15 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr.
16 President. I want to commend Senator Cook,
17 because this legislation at least recognizes the
18 opportunity for someone who is incarcerated to
19 receive some instruction and, therefore,
20 hopefully to begin the process of rehabilitation
21 after release from the correctional facility,
22 and I think it's a much better bill than the
23 legislation which would simply deny to anyone in
2499
1 the correctional facility the opportunity for
2 retraining. So I want to commend the sponsor on
3 this forward looking step.
4 There is only a problem with
5 regard to the reality of the repayment
6 schedule. I am not certain that I could
7 guarantee or anyone in this room could guarantee
8 that an individual recently discharged from a
9 correctional institution would be given a salary
10 sufficient to guarantee the repayment within six
11 months after release from a correctional
12 facility, presumably for the commission of a
13 felony.
14 I wish that society were as
15 enlightened as the Senator assumes with the
16 sponsorship of this piece of legislation, but I
17 don't think a lot of people will be rushing up
18 to an ex-inmate and say, "Look, take this high
19 salaried job; we want to hire you immediately
20 after your release."
21 The chances are, Senator, that
22 notwithstanding your desire to see them begin
23 repaying the cost, there will not be that
2500
1 opportunity, and then they will be in default
2 for failing to repay the tuition or to start
3 repaying the tuition within six months.
4 On the one hand, your legislation
5 wants to offer them hope that they can be
6 prepared for a better way of life; and that part
7 of the legislation, that assumption in the
8 legislation is excellent. But what you give
9 with one hand, you take back prematurely with
10 the other by stating that within six months
11 there must be a repayment of this legislation.
12 And that part of it, I think, for a sponsor who
13 is a realist, who is a practical legislator, and
14 who knows with regard to your constituents how
15 they struggle to prepare a budget. And
16 sometimes in rural areas, they may be cash
17 poor. They may not have the money. A farmer
18 may not have the money to begin repayment of a
19 loan. And, surely, the same standard applies to
20 someone who was recently discharged from a
21 correctional facility.
22 I think, Senator, your timetable
23 is wrong. I think your decent impulse should be
2501
1 commended. But in its present form, this
2 legislation should not be supported.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
4 Dollinger.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
6 President. Will the sponsor yield to a couple
7 questions?
8 SENATOR COOK: Sure.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
10 Cook.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you,
12 Mr. President. Senator Cook, do you know what
13 the total amount of funds that are expended
14 under this provision of the Correction and Civil
15 Service -- I assume it's the Correction Law. Do
16 you know how much is expended in tuition
17 payments to colleges for the education of
18 inmates?
19 SENATOR COOK: Well, one of the
20 interesting things, Senator, at this point is
21 that that seems to be a very fuzzy issue because
22 the Corrections Department doesn't seem to have
23 real good numbers on it. Some of the money
2502
1 comes through the university system.
2 Apparently, most of it through Higher Education
3 Corporation. I -- well, I will leave it at
4 that.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As a
6 follow-up. Again, Mr. President, if the sponsor
7 will yield to another question.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 Cook, would you yield again?
10 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What I'm
12 really trying to figure out, Senator Cook, is
13 what is the average expenditure on behalf of an
14 inmate so I would get some sense of what kind of
15 liability an inmate would face after the payment
16 period begins. Do you know?
17 SENATOR COOK: Well, Senator,
18 considering that the tuition at a state
19 universities about -- what? It's $2,000 a year
20 now. 2500, is it, Senator LaValle, per year?
21 You are talking about a four-year degree. You
22 are talking about $10,000. Recognizing the
23 inmate is already getting free room and board
2503
1 because they are in a state institution that
2 what we're really talking about there is a
3 reimbursement for the education costs.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just again,
5 one question, Mr. President, through you for the
6 sponsor.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Cook.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So I
10 understand this, Senator Cook, what is the
11 consequence of defaulting on that loan?
12 SENATOR COOK: Well, the same
13 consequence as there is for any other student,
14 Senator. They would be subject to civil follow
15 up, lawsuit presumably, to recover the money the
16 same as somebody who made a college loan through
17 a bank or anybody else and defaulted on the
18 repayment. Then whoever the money is owed to
19 goes after them and tries to recover it civilly.
20 That's the means through which it's done.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
22 President, on the bill.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
2504
1 bill, Senator Dollinger.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I, I guess,
3 join Senator Stavisky. I think this is an
4 interesting idea and certainly one I understand
5 the purpose of which. I think it's a laudable
6 one. I'm not quite so sure how it's going to
7 work in practice.
8 I think that facing an inmate
9 with a $10,000 bill because of their college
10 education that they have taken advantage of
11 during their period of their incarceration puts
12 a significant disincentive for them to go to
13 college, to take advantage of those courses, if
14 we're simply going to charge it back.
15 There are enough problems, it
16 seems to me, with those who are attempting to
17 get back into the flow of society after release
18 from incarceration; and to put a $10,000
19 assessment against them or loan against them to
20 require that they repay it, otherwise they are
21 going to be subject to a judgment -- they are
22 probably not going to have a lot of assets -- it
23 seems to me the practicality of this, to agree
2505
1 with Senator Stavisky, is that you end up
2 saddling someone with a substantial loan and
3 then not having the assets to levy against or to
4 move against in the event there is a default. I
5 think that that may create a significant
6 disincentive to inmates attempting to get an
7 education during the period of their
8 incarceration.
9 When you combine that with, as
10 the sponsor has said, a fuzzy understanding of
11 the cost, I'm not so sure we can put that fuzzy
12 number into a loan and I'm not so sure we can
13 quantify exactly what the cost is here.
14 So I think it's a good idea. I
15 think it perhaps needs some further refinement.
16 I'm going to vote against it at this state. But
17 I'm willing to look, if this doesn't pass, at
18 other innovations along this line that would
19 require maybe some flat fee to be charged
20 against the inmate, maybe using some other form
21 of income that they generate during the period
22 of incarceration as a way to begin to paying it
23 off.
2506
1 I think it's a good idea. It
2 moves in the right direction. I just see too
3 many practical problems, Mr. President, at this
4 time.
5 Thank you.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
7 Stachowski.
8 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr.
9 President. I would just like to comment on the
10 bill that last year an identical bill passed
11 45-14, and Senator Connor, Galiber, Gold,
12 Halperin, Korman, Leichter, Mendez, Montgomery,
13 Ohrenstein, Paterson, Smith, Stavisky, Waldon,
14 and Weinstein voted in the negative.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You can
16 read the last section.
17 Oh, Senator Cook, before we go -
18 I'm sorry. Senator Nozzolio is
19 next.
20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
21 President.
22 Mr. Cook, I rise to support your
23 bill that I ask this body not to only recognize
2507
1 the wisdom of its sponsor but to pass it by
2 acclamation; that just turn around and speak to
3 one of those college students who may be
4 watching the proceedings today. And during
5 their tenure in college, particularly upper
6 classmen who have seen in this four- or
7 five-year period the Regents Scholarship
8 eliminated, TAP tuition assistance significantly
9 reduced, and at the same time SUNY tuition
10 rising rapidly, not to mention what has happened
11 at our private schools; that those law-abiding
12 scholastically excellent citizens of our state
13 have found it more and more difficult and have
14 found college education a goal that becomes
15 harder and harder to realize.
16 At the same token, we have prison
17 inmates in this state who are getting two and
18 three not undergraduate degree but graduate
19 degrees at taxpayers' expense.
20 Ladies and gentlemen, my
21 colleagues, Mr. President. There is a measure
22 whose time has long since come. There are those
23 of us who may favor even the elimination of
2508
1 these programs until such time as our students
2 at SUNY can continue to have laboratory
3 equipment financed by the state, that tuition
4 increases wouldn't continue to escalate, that
5 Regents Scholarships would be reinstated. Then
6 after those objectives are achieved, we can talk
7 about free college education to prison inmates.
8 Unfortunately, Mr. President, we
9 don't have that luxury; nonetheless, Senator
10 Cook has taken a giant step in the right
11 direction, and I applaud him for this measure.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Cook, and then Senator Paterson.
14 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. I
15 would just like to indicate that there really
16 isn't any great mystery about how to compute the
17 cost because every college has a schedule of
18 credit hour charges, and part-time students are
19 charged on that basis, so it's not at all
20 difficult to compute that on an individual
21 basis, although coming up with that kind of
22 global number, since it doesn't exist, is more
23 difficult.
2509
1 To state the obvious perhaps,
2 however -- and I think Senator Nozzolio already
3 has stated that. I think that there are very
4 few college students in this state who given the
5 opportunity to obtain a college loan for the
6 value of whatever the tuition would be so long
7 as they were given free room and board, as are
8 the people who are residing in the prisons,
9 there are few people who wouldn't leap at that
10 opportunity. And I just think that to continue
11 to provide this free education to inmates within
12 the prison system and to require the rest of the
13 population to go through all of the struggle
14 that they go through and that their families go
15 through right now to pay for those educations, I
16 think that that defies logic.
17 And this bill simply tries to put
18 everybody on somewhat of a level playing field.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
22 President. When we are living in a state that
23 as of a study in 1987 demonstrates that the
2510
1 eight least-funded school districts produced the
2 eight school districts that had the highest
3 dropout rate and also the poorest attendance
4 rate, I think that we can establish that there
5 is a definite correlation between education in
6 this state and the likelihood of those to drop
7 out of the school system, not to drop out to get
8 jobs or to drop out to other endeavors but to
9 drop out to the streets and wind up being
10 incarcerated in our institutions.
11 I would like the record to
12 reflect that in the '70s there was a celebrated
13 case, the State versus Cero, and the objective
14 and the dicta in the decision in that case ruled
15 that our institutions, our correctional
16 institutions in this state were not
17 rehabilitating; they were only incarcerating.
18 And so I would suggest that the
19 education that we provide in prisons is
20 something that is one that is aimed in the
21 direction of ameliorating the problems that
22 those who have had the misfortune of being
23 incarcerated have, which is generally that they
2511
1 are undereducated and that they have sought
2 crime as a solution to problems where there were
3 definitely other solutions.
4 So while I don't think that we
5 are apt to forgive those who have committed
6 crimes against society, at that point that they
7 are being incarcerated I don't understand why we
8 would not want to encourage them to create an
9 opportunity for themselves when they leave, so
10 we don't have to spend hundreds of millions of
11 dollars right now incarcerating 60,000 people in
12 this state.
13 In 1970, there were 12,385 who
14 were in the New York State prison system. That
15 figure has quintupled in 23 years. So it would
16 seem to me that we would be finding some
17 alternatives to simple incarceration; and
18 perhaps as we extend sentences, which most of
19 our laws tend to do now, we are only taking
20 people away from their communities for longer
21 periods of time, away from their family roots,
22 away from the minimum training and skills
23 necessary for a person to operate in society.
2512
1 So I would suggest that
2 instilling a burden of giving someone the bill
3 for their education makes the same sense as
4 giving them a bill for their room and board and
5 asking them to pay that back when they leave our
6 prison system. So I urge all my colleagues to
7 vote against this legislation. I don't think it
8 would do any good if it was passed. It would
9 only add to the encumbrances of those who have
10 already paid their debt to society; and if we
11 are going to waive an additional debt that they
12 while in incarceration did seek an education to
13 try to give themselves a chance in society when
14 they got out, I for one would be willing to
15 forgive that debt lest we be paying for their
16 incarceration again when they commit further
17 crimes against our society.
18 For those college students who
19 have the difficulties of meeting tuition, of not
20 being able to afford college even with TAP, that
21 is a separate situation. And I think we should
22 all be fighting, if necessary, to create the
23 minimum standards that would be required for
2513
1 people to pay for their college education. But
2 for those who are in prison, I think we should
3 actually encourage them to do something so that
4 when they get out of prison we don't have to see
5 them back in those confines again.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
7 Lack.
8 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Mr.
9 President. I just wanted to make sure that I
10 was hearing from my colleagues on the other side
11 of the aisle what I thought I was hearing, and I
12 think Senator Paterson and Senator Dollinger
13 indeed set that forward; that if you pay taxes
14 in the state and you send your children to
15 college and you take loans out and you don't pay
16 that you can be forced into bankruptcy, and
17 that's okay. But if you are incarcerated and
18 you're in prison and you don't get a free
19 education, that's okay. But if you're
20 incarcerated and you're in prison and you are
21 asked to pay for your education the same way
22 that any of us in this chamber have to pay for
23 the education of our children, that's not okay
2514
1 to ask somebody to pay that cost back.
2 Mr. President. If that's what
3 the colleagues on the other side of the aisle
4 believe, I hope each and every one of them vote
5 against this bill.
6 Thank you.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 Leichter.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will Senator
11 Lack yield, please?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Lack, will you yield?
14 SENATOR LACK: Yes.
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, do
16 you believe that the inmate should pay for
17 educational courses that they receive or
18 training courses they receive or vocational
19 courses they receive other than college
20 education?
21 SENATOR LACK: No, Senator, I
22 don't. I think there's a logical cut-off point,
23 and I would think higher education would
2515
1 certainly be that. I have no problem whatsoever
2 with vocational programs or training programs or
3 to learn a skill or a trade once you are no
4 longer incarcerated. But, Senator, I have a
5 very large problem with someone receiving a free
6 higher education courtesy of the state of New
7 York for someone who has broken society's rules
8 and has gotten incarcerated to begin with.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: If the Senator
10 would yield?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
12 Lack, would you yield again to another
13 question?
14 SENATOR LACK: Yes.
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Are you saying
16 supplying costs for vocational training even
17 though it would be a cost that ordinarily we
18 would have to pay for for our children, let's
19 say a secretarial course or a computer course or
20 something of that sort, that you wouldn't make
21 them pay; but you feel that once -- once it
22 becomes past high school, once it doesn't
23 involve a vocational course, then it becomes to
2516
1 you this matter of great and clear principle?
2 SENATOR LACK: For the very
3 simple reason, Senator, if you'd read Senator
4 Cook's bill you'd know why. Senator Cook's
5 bill talks about the payment of tuition
6 for college courses, which I assume and that's
7 what I think Senator Cook meant, which are
8 offered, and again I will assume, by some system
9 connected to the State University of New York or
10 Empire State College for which there is an
11 identifiable cost that would exist within the
12 correction system, and a cost allocation has to
13 be paid by the Corrections Department probably
14 to some agency of government or, indeed, to some
15 private school apparatus, as well.
16 The vocational education programs
17 that you are talking about which already exist
18 within the correctional system are part of the
19 correctional system and part of society's charge
20 to try to rehabilitate someone who is an inmate
21 in our correctional system, and for that I have
22 no problem for it.
23 I do have a problem when you want
2517
1 to extend it, and I assume your colleagues on
2 your side of the aisle want to extend that, to a
3 free public higher education while you are
4 incarcerated as an inmate in one of our state
5 penitentiaries. I think that's wrong. We don't
6 happen to have a university system -- somebody
7 correct me if I'm wrong. We don't happen to
8 have a state correctional university system that
9 is part of our prison system. If you want to
10 sponsor a bill to establish one, by all means.
11 Please put it in, and let's see what happens to
12 it.
13 Senator Cook is referring to
14 costs, charges, money, that has to be paid by
15 the state Corrections Department, I would assume
16 raised by taxes upon all the citizens of this
17 state that go out of the corrections system to
18 some public or I guess even possible private
19 university for which tuition has been paid on
20 behalf of an inmate. That is a lot different
21 than inhouse vocational and education programs
22 that are part of the correctional system.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
2518
1 Stavisky.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: There is one
3 provision of this bill that almost defies
4 explanation, and that is the provision that the
5 repayment shall begin with one of two
6 possibilities, either after discharge from the
7 correctional facility, six months, or six months
8 after the completion of the educational
9 program. Where will that prisoner still in
10 prison get the money? I know "whichever is
11 later." I understand that. But there is that
12 little klinker of language that you begin the
13 repayment as one option six months after the
14 completion of the educational program even if
15 you are still in prison.
16 What are we starting, a new
17 system of debtors prison? We're going to have a
18 separate compartment of the correctional
19 facility for debtors prison by those prisoners
20 who are not only there for the purpose of being
21 in prison for the crimes for which they were
22 committed but now, perhaps, for failure while
23 they are still in jail to repay.
2519
1 I think the philosophy is flawed,
2 and I do not see any volunteers. I want someone
3 to sign a sheet saying we will hire ex-inmates
4 within six months after their discharge. We
5 will have the clerk prepare a list of those who
6 from the entire Capital District, not just the
7 Legislature, are volunteering to perform this
8 act of mercy. Do I hear volunteers? I have not
9 heard anyone rushing forward to make that
10 offer.
11 The alternative, by putting
12 pressure, maybe that while the education has
13 been provided to try to change the ex-convict's
14 way of life, the only place they may be able to
15 get the money to repay the tuition is by going
16 back to a life of crime, and that surely defeats
17 the whole purpose of a well-intended
18 legislation. I keep complimenting the sponsor
19 for recognizing that education may help someone
20 begin a new life.
21 But in order to meet the
22 requirements of this legislation and to start
23 repaying six months after you are out of prison
2520
1 even if you don't have a job, you go back to
2 reaching for the gun, you go back to a life of
3 crime. Do you look for your ex-felon friends
4 and ask them to start up a new gang?
5 I don't think that that is in the
6 best interests of a law-abiding society.
7 Because there are no options. You are either
8 hired to do a job, a legal job, or you are
9 affluent which means you stashed away money that
10 was not returned, and I assume the authorities
11 are pretty good at finding money that's been
12 stashed away; or if you haven't stashed away any
13 money, you start going back to a life of crime
14 to meet this lawful obligation that is proposed
15 in this legislation.
16 It is fatally flawed. And,
17 really, you can accomplish the same result by
18 recognizing reality which this bill does not.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Waldon.
21 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
22 much, Mr. President. On the bill.
23 Sometimes our shortsightedness in
2521
1 this chamber boggles my imagination. Those of
2 you who have gone into the prisons understand
3 that it is a place where there must be
4 cooperation between the prisoners, the guards
5 and the administration. And if you don't have
6 it, you create danger for the administration,
7 for the guards, and for the prisoners.
8 One of the things that the
9 superintendent of a prison will do, if at all
10 possible, is to create activities to keep the
11 prisoners busy. Because idle hands are the
12 devil's playground. Someone goes through the
13 vocational phase of training and he now aspires
14 to do something else to fill the 15 or 20 years
15 he has left on his sentence with meaningful
16 activity. And then we, as a legislative body,
17 are so myopic and so tunnel-visioned that we are
18 going to charge him, the person who is capable
19 of going into an educational situation and
20 bettering his mind for that improvement.
21 What you are going to do is cause
22 that prisoner to really be mean-spirited and
23 cause him to go against the system, and you're
2522
1 going to create another thorn in the side of the
2 administration and the guards who must have a
3 compatible relationship with the prisoners in
4 order for the system to proceed.
5 So from a very practical point of
6 view, I would encourage us to defeat this.
7 Because I'm sure someone like Tom Coughlin and
8 those who administer DOCS for our state don't
9 want problems which we create.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
11 Mega.
12 SENATOR MEGA: Mr. President. I
13 have listened to the debate as all of us that
14 are seated here, and I guess what's discouraging
15 about a debate on a bill such as this nature is
16 that we all want the same thing. It's how we go
17 about trying to get these things done,
18 particularly as far as our prisons are
19 concerned, as far as our young people are
20 concerned, the education and so on.
21 For whatever it is worth, we know
22 that this is a one-house bill. It will never
23 see the light of day in the other house, and
2523
1 maybe there should be some discussion on whether
2 or not we could do something like this. Because
3 I heard Senator Stavisky say a couple of times
4 that it is laudable that Senator Cook was trying
5 to do something on this issue.
6 The sad part about it is, you
7 know, by the time 85 to 90 percent of these
8 young men and women get into our prison system,
9 it is too late to do anything for them. The
10 problem has started at the very beginning, where
11 the foundation is supposed to have been laid,
12 where they are supposed to have gotten a proper
13 elementary school education and the sense of
14 values that we all talk about. That's where
15 it's all done at the very beginning.
16 And I have the opportunity now,
17 like some of you, to speak not only as a
18 legislator and as father but as a grandfather,
19 where you are given a second chance to look at
20 youngsters when they are developing.
21 You know, when youngsters are
22 developing when we're parents, we miss a lot
23 because we're so busy trying to make a living or
2524
1 doing the kinds of things that we do as young
2 parents. But now as a grandparent you zero in
3 and you say, "My! At the age of 2, at the age
4 of 3, at the age of 4, at the age of 5, how
5 smart this youngster is, how much this youngster
6 has absorbed." And that's where we are in
7 trouble.
8 Many of our young people are
9 destroyed before they ever get into the
10 educational system, before they ever get that
11 foundation that we are supposed to give them,
12 and now they go on to whatever life they go
13 onto, and they wind up in the prison system, and
14 now we are talking about higher education.
15 And we give everybody secondary
16 education. They're entitled to it, primary and
17 secondary. And now we're giving prisoners
18 higher education. Fine. There's nothing wrong
19 with that. We want to do that. We want to try
20 and make them productive. We want them to go
21 back into society so that they don't continue on
22 the ways of crime, and we're trying to instill
23 some values.
2525
1 So what is so terrible if we say
2 to the prisoner, "Hey, we have given you an
3 education; now, hopefully you'll get back...."
4 And, Senator Stavisky, I wish we could do what
5 you indicated, but in the real world we know
6 that doesn't happen. And if we can give them
7 that sense of value and say: Now you are going
8 out. Hopefully, you are going to make it, and
9 maybe you can pay back for what we have given to
10 you.
11 I don't see anything wrong with
12 trying to do that, and maybe we could do it
13 better, but I don't see anything wrong with the
14 process. Let me refer to page 2, line 50. It
15 says, "If any borrower dies or becomes
16 permanently and totally disabled, to the extent
17 that the borrower receives Social Security
18 disability benefits under the federal Social
19 Security Act prior to the repayment of the loan
20 in full, any unpaid principal balance of the
21 loan shall be discharged." I don't know if any
22 other loan would indicate that this be so. It's
23 possible that all loans that are made may have
2526
1 something like that in there. But we were
2 trying to make this something that makes sense.
3 And then I'll refer to page 3,
4 "The Department shall adopt rules and
5 regulations consistent with law to effectuate
6 the provisions of this section." I would hope
7 that they would adopt rules and regulations that
8 would make some sense so that this process is
9 not counterproductive.
10 And sometimes I think when we
11 talk about prisoners' rights and trying to help
12 prisoners, it sort of becomes a political
13 issue. It shouldn't be a political issue.
14 Because I know, as I started saying, that we
15 want the same thing on both sides of the aisle.
16 We want the system to work. We want to try to
17 make it better. But let's try to work together
18 to do that, and I think that's where things go
19 amiss in this process.
20 Again, I don't see anything wrong
21 with the bill. Could we make some adjustments?
22 Yes, we could. If the Assembly was serious
23 about doing something, they could negotiate it
2527
1 and try to make the kind of adjustments that
2 could make everybody vote for this bill.
3 But based on what we have now, I
4 don't see anything so terribly wrong in voting
5 and supporting this bill.
6 Thank you, Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Espada.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr.
10 President.
11 Senator Mega is a practical and
12 reasonable legislator. And haven't quite
13 reached the point where I can enjoy his other
14 status of being a good grandfather, but I can
15 tell you that I share the empathy. I share that
16 sense of pay-back to society for what society
17 has given to you. Whether you are in an inner
18 city neighborhood or whether you are in prison
19 serving your time, you need to pay back.
20 But you broadened this argument
21 -- I think appropriately so -- to other areas,
22 and I differ with you on that we want the same
23 thing. You know, we study what people say, we
2528
1 study legislation, we study its aims, we seek to
2 see what its repercussions will be. None of us
3 can really guarantee results, but we try to look
4 into that crystal ball and see what -- you know,
5 what our actions will cause out there.
6 And I can tell you that what
7 actions we have taken here in these chambers
8 year in and year out; where this year, in 1993,
9 we have recognized a poverty index in school aid
10 distribution. And I ask what about those
11 primary grades, those secondary grades where our
12 children that Mr. Paterson -- Senator Paterson
13 refers to, eight or nine school districts that
14 make up the population of these prisons, should
15 they seek a rebate? Should they seek redress for
16 being in a classroom with 40 other children or
17 being in an annex where they don't even have
18 public toilets?
19 I think that when we weigh this
20 whole issue of investment and outcome and when
21 we look at what these same kids who are then
22 adults who live in prisons with no toilets in a
23 10 by 10 with somebody else, again still over
2529
1 crowded, and somehow, incredibly, they find the
2 internal fortitude, the desire, the ambition, to
3 gain a college education and we take all of that
4 effort, we take all of this balancing of
5 equities, and we come out with, "You owe us
6 $10,000; you better pay back in six months," or
7 else what? Or else you give them more prison
8 time?
9 I mean what is the outcome that
10 we seek. And that's where I tend to disagree
11 that we want the same things. Because on this
12 side of the aisle, we want a solution to the
13 problem. This legislation and the comments in
14 support of it don't seem to seek that kind of
15 solution out. I wish it would. Because then I
16 think it wouldn't be a one-house bill, and I'm
17 sure that many of us on this side would lead a
18 march to the other house demanding a real
19 solution to this problem. It just isn't found
20 in this legislation.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Paterson.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr.
2530
1 President, I was making some notes before when
2 Senator Lack and Senator Mega were speaking and
3 I did have some comments, but I see that Senator
4 Espada has come up here and taken those notes
5 from my desk, and it leaves me with very little
6 else to add.
7 But what I would like to say is
8 that for those individuals who are the parents
9 of children who have gone through the public
10 school systems or private systems and have
11 expended a great deal of resources, who spent a
12 lot of money in tuition and have suffered for
13 that fact, I think that is something that we
14 have to address. It is something that we are
15 certainly trying to address on both sides of the
16 aisle.
17 But we are talking about people
18 who are serving a sentence in our state prisons
19 for a crime that they have committed against
20 society. In addition to the fact that we are
21 looking to deter them from committing these
22 crimes again and we are also seeking retribution
23 for the value of the crime that they committed,
2531
1 we are hoping to rehabilitate them so that we
2 don't have to have as a society their problem
3 again. And I don't see how this problem is
4 being solved at any point by giving them a bill
5 for whatever education they receive while they
6 are in the prison system.
7 From 1977 to 1983, there were
8 165,000 jobs created in New York City. Only
9 40,000 of those jobs went to New York City
10 residents. Between 1985 and 1990, the number of
11 jobs held by New York State residents rose by
12 5.3 percent but -- the number of jobs created in
13 the state rose, but the number of jobs held by
14 state residents decreased by the same fashion.
15 The reason is because it doesn't take a high
16 school education to conduct most business in the
17 state any more. It takes a college education.
18 The United States Army estimates
19 that you have to be in the mid-year of your 12th
20 year, in other words, your senior high school
21 year, in order to discharge all the functions
22 necessary as a member of the United States Army
23 or the Navy or the Air Force or the machines.
2532
1 So the point is that perhaps there is not a
2 necessity to let individuals receive what would
3 be an advantage while they are in our penal
4 system, but at the same time the minimum
5 training and skills required to do a job are
6 going to need in the 1990s a college education.
7 But somehow, we are going to not
8 allow that to happen unless the individual
9 agrees to pay this debt back starting from six
10 months after they are discharged from a
11 penitentiary. And somehow, they are supposed to
12 get a job with a criminal record on their resume
13 and pay back the money that they accrued
14 receiving the education. I don't think that is
15 workable. I don't think it is sensible, and I
16 don't think it is achievable.
17 And the fact is that if people
18 could receive a college education and start
19 employment in our society, I am willing to
20 overlook the expense that the state created to
21 try to give them that education. To speak
22 otherwise, to speak in such a scrupulous, abject
23 concentration on fairness makes me wonder why
2533
1 every school pupil in this state doesn't receive
2 the equal amount of money for educational
3 purposes. It should not be our interest or our
4 aim to fund school districts this dis
5 proportionately and then be this dissatisfied
6 when we see the results.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Dollinger.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
10 President, I'll be brief. I was heard on the
11 bill earlier.
12 I just want to dovetail with the
13 comment that my colleague, Senator Paterson,
14 mentioned.
15 We've heard talk about
16 comparisons between people that pay college
17 tuitions in this state and the financing that we
18 currently have for those who are inmates who
19 seek college education.
20 Mr. President. I have worked
21 with inmates in the state prison system. I have
22 represented them in civil rights actions. I've
23 represented them in the context of disputes
2534
1 involving their correctional activities. I,
2 frankly, met a number of inmates who acquired
3 education during their period that they were
4 incarcerated.
5 My experience is two-fold, Mr.
6 President. One, the education that they get
7 puts them in a position where they can come out
8 the door of a prison and begin the slow process
9 of trying to make something with their lives.
10 My experience is that a year or two years after
11 leaving the doors of our prison system, they are
12 not in a position to pay back a $10,000 loan.
13 They don't have an asset. They don't have the
14 income stream. They are trying to use their
15 income stream to pay for housing, to pay for
16 shelter, to pay for food, so that they've got a
17 way to make ends meet. The last thing they want
18 to do is have to pay $10,000 back to the state
19 of New York.
20 I also suggest, Mr. President,
21 that as a practical matter, the workability of
22 this is that no inmate is going to sit down and
23 say, "Okay, I'll go to college and I'll sign a
2535
1 loan agreement to pay it back." It's just not
2 going to happen. If you told them, "Sign this
3 document; we will give you a college education,
4 it's going to cost $10,000," my experience
5 suggests that their reaction will be, "I'm not
6 going to do that. I don't want to incur that
7 liability. When I get out of prison, I got to
8 pay back $10,000."
9 Who is going to counsel them on
10 signing these promissory notes payable to the
11 state of New York? My opinion based on my
12 experience in the prison system of this state
13 and its inmates is, if you put this restriction
14 into effect, you might as well scrap the college
15 education program. Because I just don't see
16 that inmates in this situation are going to put
17 their name on the dotted line to pay back money
18 that they don't have then, that they are not
19 going to get until some significant period of
20 time after they get out of incarceration.
21 I think this all ties back, Mr.
22 President, with the concept of the workability
23 of this bill. I see the purpose. I see the
2536
1 intent. I think it's laudable. I join Senator
2 Stavisky. I understand what Senator Cook is
3 trying to do. But in this particular instance
4 this physical bill is not going to work, and
5 we've got to find something better that will
6 work. That's the objective criteria that we
7 ought to use in trying to achieve a laudable
8 balancing of the interests of the state in being
9 repaid this money and interest of the inmate in
10 having a chance at re-establishing his life
11 after incarceration.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Montgomery.
14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr.
15 President, would Senator Cook yield for a
16 question?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Cook, would you yield to Senator Montgomery?
19 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you.
21 Senator Cook, you indicate in your memo of
22 support that there would be no fiscal
23 implications or "significant savings to the
2537
1 state, no fiscal implications to the
2 localities." But at this point in time, you are
3 unable to say, to have any further estimate of
4 the savings than that? You say significant.
5 SENATOR COOK: The Corrections
6 Department doesn't seem to have precise numbers
7 as to how many people are involved and how many
8 hours they are taking in a given time. So I
9 really can't give you a specific amount money.
10 And I really -- to -- if I see
11 may -
12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Sure.
13 SENATOR COOK: You know, the
14 point of this bill is not -- nobody is
15 contending we are going to save the state a ton
16 of money. What we are trying to simply say is
17 -- you are trying to teach people to be
18 responsible citizens, then let them be
19 responsible. If they want a college education,
20 they do what everybody else does. They take out
21 a loan and they pay it back.
22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right.
23 I just wanted to clarify that this is basically
2538
1 a philosophical statement with regard to your
2 wish for prisoners to be responsible citizens.
3 Now, I notice in the legislation,
4 Senator Cook, if you would yield for one further
5 clarification for me.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
7 Cook.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: On page 3,
9 Section 2 D, under "repayment," am I looking at
10 the correct version of the bill? It says that
11 repayment of a loan -- could you explain to me
12 what happens? How that works? What happens if
13 one does not pay back the loan?
14 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President.
15 The same thing happens if my son defaults on his
16 college loan.
17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So they get
18 a bad credit rating.
19 SENATOR COOK: Exactly.
20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: And they
21 can't borrow any further?
22 SENATOR COOK: Exactly.
23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right.
2539
1 Mr. President, briefly on the legislation.
2 I think that certainly it's
3 admirable that Senator Cook feels very strongly
4 and continues to bring this legislation back
5 year after year. We note that it has died every
6 year since, well, '91, '92, '89, '88. So there
7 is consistency. Senator Cook continues to bring
8 it forth. But for all of the reasons that many
9 of our colleagues have indicated, it's certainly
10 not legislation that I'm not sure even Senator
11 Cook believes will work. Certainly, we don't
12 believe -- a number of us don't believe that it
13 will work.
14 And I personally think that it is
15 not a message that is going to incur any
16 significant advantage for us as far as the
17 constituency is concerned. We now have 60,000
18 people incarcerated in the state of New York. I
19 don't know how many of those people are in there
20 for ten years or more, but it is my
21 understanding that the majority of them will be
22 coming back into the communities anyway within
23 two to five years. So those are the ones that
2540
1 certainly I am very interested in because they
2 come back into my district and the districts of
3 many of us in this room, and I would like to
4 know what we can do for those.
5 I am certainly not opposed to
6 educating people in prison so that when they do
7 come back, whenever, three years, two years,
8 five years or ten, that they bring something
9 with them from a system where many of them have
10 spent the most vital years of their lives.
11 So, Senator Cook, I admire your
12 tenacity and your consistency, but I certainly
13 hope that again this legislation is defeated.
14 Thank you, Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
16 the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
18 act shall take effect on the first day of
19 January next succeeding the date on which it
20 shall have become a law.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Daly to explain his vote.
23 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. I
2541
1 find it difficult to accept the premise that
2 those who are receiving a college education
3 while incarcerated for a crime are worthy of
4 better treatment by the state and from the state
5 than those good citizens who have not been a
6 burden to society.
7 I vote yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 DeFrancisco.
10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I would
11 like to explain my vote.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 DeFrancisco to explain his vote.
14 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I don't
15 think anybody in this room would want to deprive
16 anyone from a college education whether they are
17 in prison or not. And unbelievably, although it
18 may be unbelievable to some people in this room,
19 whether you are in prison going to college or
20 whether you are out of prison going to college,
21 there is no guarantee when you get done with
22 college that you are going to get a job, and
23 that's true whether you are incarcerated or
2542
1 you're not.
2 There's many people who don't
3 want to face an $8,000 to $10,000 bill each year
4 to go to college, and they make a decision not
5 to do that, and that decision can be made not to
6 do it, but to incur that kind of bill, whether
7 you are in prison or whether you are not. And
8 there are many out of prison that make that
9 choice.
10 In addition, many people who go
11 on and take college loans out don't get the
12 opportunity to pay them back because they can't
13 get a job, and they are sued, and that is true
14 whether you are in prison or you're not if this
15 bill is passed. And if you don't pay the bill
16 and you are sued, you have a bad credit rating.
17 That's whether you're in prison if this bill
18 passes, or not.
19 So I think, basically, all this
20 bill does, despite all the rhetoric is it
21 basically says we're going to treat everybody
22 the same way. You'll have the same decision
23 about a college education and the same
2543
1 responsibilities whether you are in prison or
2 not.
3 And I vote yes.
4 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Connor to explain his vote.
7 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes, to explain
8 my vote. Mr. President, I'm voting no. But
9 something Senator DeFrancisco said just clicked
10 when he got up and said I don't think there is
11 anyone in this room that would deny anyone a
12 college education whether they are incarcerated
13 or not. Senator, you're new. Just wait. There
14 is a bill we see every year from one of your
15 colleagues over there that would forbid any
16 prisoner incarcerated in a state prison from
17 taking any college credit courses. So you are
18 wrong, but you'll see.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
20 Results.
21 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
22 the negative on Calendar Number 367 are Senators
23 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gold, Halperin,
2544
1 Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein,
2 Paterson, Smith, Stavisky and Waldon. Ayes 44,
3 nays 13.
4 (Whereupon, Senator Daly was in
5 the chair.)
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill
7 is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 378, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3204.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Lay it
11 aside.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 379, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number
14 3691, an act to amend the Social Services Law.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the
16 last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the
20 roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill
2545
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 384, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 2583,
4 an act to amend the Education Law.
5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY:
7 Explanation.
8 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President.
9 This bill is a bill which would prohibit the
10 expenditure of TAP monies on behalf of somebody
11 who is incarcerated on an indeterminate sentence
12 in our correction system.
13 The intention of the bill,
14 basically, is to make those monies available to
15 other students, other people who are not behind
16 the walls, people who are on the other side of
17 the walls who are struggling and unable to
18 obtain a college education at this time.
19 Mr. President. I'll respond to
20 any questions anybody may have.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
22 Stachowski.
23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr.
2546
1 President. I'd just like to point out that a
2 similar bill passed last year, 44 to 11, and
3 Senators Connor, Galiber, Gold, Halperin,
4 Korman, Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery,
5 Ohrenstein, Paterson, and Smith voted in the
6 negative.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the
8 last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
15 the negative on Calendar Number 384 are Senators
16 Connor, Espada, Gold, Halperin, Leichter,
17 Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Paterson,
18 Smith, Stavisky and Waldon. Ayes 45, nays 12.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill
20 is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 385, by Senator Daly.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Lay it
2547
1 aside.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 386, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 3109.
4 SENATOR KUHL: Lay it aside.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Lay it
6 aside.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 388, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 3515-A,
9 an act to amend the Education Law.
10 SENATOR SMITH: Explanation.
11 SENATOR KUHL: Lay it aside.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Lay the
13 bill aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 393, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3182,
16 Agriculture and Markets Law.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the
18 last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2548
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays 1.
2 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill
4 is passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 413, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate
7 Bill Number 4363, an act to amend the Public
8 Health Law.
9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY:
11 Explanation.
12 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
13 President. This bill relates to health reform
14 and hospitals serving low income and Medicaid
15 patients. It extends to December 31, 1993, the
16 current Supplementary Low Income Patient
17 Adjustment, also known as SLIPA, retroactive to
18 April 1 of '93, and also provides for a transfer
19 of $18 million in unallocated reserve balances
20 from the bad debt and charity care regional and
21 statewide pools to be allocated $8 million for
22 the SLIPA payment and $10 million for additional
23 hospital payments and health reforms pursuant to
2549
1 NYPHRM V.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
4 Leichter.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
6 would Senator Tully yield?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
8 Tully.
9 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
10 President.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, we
12 instituted in this Legislature, and you were
13 very helpful in that effort, a program called
14 SLIPA -- I can't tell you what the exact name
15 is.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Supplementary Low
17 Income Patient Adjustment.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right. And
19 this was to take care of hospitals that had a
20 very high proportion of Medicaid patients and I
21 guess also persons who are unable to pay their
22 medical bills, but I guess it was really based
23 on Medicaid, and I know I have two such
2550
1 hospitals in my district, Presbyterian and
2 Roosevelt St. Luke's. Great hospitals and
3 provide wonderful service to the whole state,
4 but who have in their immediate community many
5 people in need of medical care and unable to pay
6 for it and, therefore, eligible for Medicaid
7 which had been a terrific burden for the
8 hospital.
9 Now, Senator, you have come up
10 with this bill which adds, in addition to SLIPA,
11 a large sum of money for additional assistance
12 to hospitals, and this has created a problem
13 with the Assembly. The Assembly hasn't gone
14 along. The money isn't in the budget for it.
15 How are we going to resolve this?
16 Because, Senator, aren't we hurting those very
17 same hospitals? I mentioned two of them. There
18 are other great hospitals that are being
19 seriously damaged by our inability to reach a
20 consensus on continuing the SLIPA program.
21 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
22 President. Senator Leichter, you raise a very,
23 very significant question. In the budget
2551
1 negotiations that were just concluded, as you
2 know, the Senate put this bill forward which had
3 absolutely no effect on the budget but would
4 have resolved the problems that you have
5 discussed as well as provided the needed money
6 for the hospitals for the development of NYPHRM
7 V legislation.
8 There is no question that the
9 hospitals in our state, besides the SLIPA
10 hospitals -- and as you know, you alluded
11 earlier, there are some 33 hospitals, 16
12 voluntary and 17 public, which get SLIPA
13 funding. This does not refer to the public
14 hospitals only to the voluntary hospitals.
15 Because the public hospitals are otherwise
16 covered separate and apart from this
17 legislation.
18 When this matter was placed on
19 the table, the Assembly took it off the table.
20 And in its place, they put in a bill providing
21 for SLIPA. But, along the lines of what the
22 Governor has done thus far in respect to health
23 reform, it sounded very good, but it had no
2552
1 provision for money. The only money that was
2 allocated for any of the institutions that you
3 have referred to, and some of them are wonderful
4 institutions like Columbia Presbyterian, was the
5 money that was contained in this proposal, in
6 this bill, and the proposal we advanced in the
7 negotiation, in the budget negotiation, and the
8 Assembly took it off the table.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
10 Leichter.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would Senator
12 Tully yield for another question?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Will you
14 yield, Senator?
15 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, I will.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator,
17 I think it is a fact that if we continued SLIPA
18 that the money is available because it gets paid
19 out of the bad debt and charity pool, does it
20 not?
21 SENATOR TULLY: The Assembly
22 bill, Senator Leichter, made no provision for
23 taking it from the bad debt and charity care
2553
1 pool. The Assembly proposal was merely a
2 provision for SLIPA but with no money, no
3 funding. It was, to me, a gesture, a symbolic
4 gesture, if you will, of saying to the
5 hospitals, We understand your problem but we're
6 not putting any money in.
7 Candidly, my understanding is
8 that's coming from the second floor and not from
9 the Assembly.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I -
11 if you will yield again, Senator Tully. And I
12 must tell you I have not seen the Assembly
13 bill. I talked to some of the people in the
14 Assembly. I talked to some of the
15 representatives of the hospitals. I don't think
16 that those people would do a symbolic act.
17 Certainly, the lobbyists are very clear that
18 they need money for these institutions.
19 I mean if the sole problem is,
20 Senator, that you think by their merely
21 continuing the SLIPA program without identifying
22 that the program will continue to be paid as it
23 has been up to now out of bad debt and charity,
2554
1 I assume that change can readily be made. But I
2 think it's fair, is it not, that the reason that
3 the Assembly did not go along with your bill is
4 because you have now added a large sum of money
5 for the NYPHRM reimbursement.
6 Maybe we ought to do that. It
7 may not be a bad idea. But until that issue
8 gets worked out, I think it's unfortunate to tie
9 it to the SLIPA program because the result is
10 that we have a stalemate. We have a deadlock on
11 this issue, gridlock, if you will. And,
12 meantime, these hospitals, good hospitals whose
13 need you recognize, are not receiving monies
14 that they desperately need.
15 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
16 President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
18 Tully.
19 SENATOR TULLY: Senator Leichter,
20 the money for SLIPA, up until this proposal,
21 never came out of the bad debt and charity care
22 pool. It always came out of the general fund
23 out of the budget. And our Governor in his
2555
1 infinite wisdom in describing his budget did not
2 make any allocation for SLIPA hospitals.
3 We are only talking about the
4 period from April until December 31st. It was
5 only a requirement of a little less than $8
6 million. $8 million is the figure we have in
7 the budget. It was seven-point-some-odd million
8 dollars. That would have been an easy thing for
9 the Governor to have included in his budget if
10 he so chose. He did not so choose and led us to
11 believe that he was going to have a health
12 reform message at a later date providing for
13 this type situation. And when we got the health
14 reform message, it had a lot of wonderful
15 comments and statements in it and promises of
16 reform, but it provided nothing in the funding
17 area.
18 It's because of that that we had
19 to make the recommendation to take it from the
20 bad debt and charity care pool help the
21 hospitals. Because in the interim, so you
22 should understand, the hospitals have a gun
23 appointed at their head by the federal
2556
1 government. It's an enormous gun.
2 Because in the deficit proposals,
3 in the major presidential proposals of our
4 President Clinton, our New York hospitals for
5 the period from 1994 until 1998, he is
6 describing additional cuts from 5.1 billion to
7 5.7 billion for the hospitals in New York
8 State. This is the sword of Damocles hanging
9 over their head.
10 Now, this is something that has
11 to be rectified and rectified immediately. The
12 impasse, the blockage, if you will, came from
13 the other side, from the Assembly, which always
14 put that money in the budget. But this year I
15 have a feeling they were directed: We're not
16 going to get it in as an "add" on your part
17 because the second floor doesn't want it.
18 We now have a bill that puts it
19 in, puts the money in, puts the funding source
20 for it, and also provides for what the President
21 has done and the gun he has pointed at our
22 hospitals in this state.
23 I might say parenthetically that
2557
1 when you ask what the hospitals think about, I
2 just quote a portion of a letter received from
3 the Presbyterian Hospital, the one you referred
4 to, dated April 8, 1993. And they say
5 specifically in this letter, "Now we have to
6 deal with the painful consequences of the
7 Assembly's failure to negotiate a solution."
8 And that's right in their letter, and they know
9 it and I know it, and I'm telling you so you'll
10 know it.
11 Really, it's a shame that the
12 Assembly chose not to put money in the budget
13 for this particular situation. We think the
14 only way to do it is through this particular
15 bill.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
18 Leichter.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Just
20 briefly on the bill.
21 Senator Tully, I don't know, you
22 know, with this finger pointing going back and
23 forth who is right and who is wrong. All I know
2558
1 is that as far as the public is concerned, as
2 far as the consumers of health care are
3 concerned, as far as the providers of health
4 care are concerned, they are looking to this
5 Legislature, they are looking to this government
6 to come up with a solution.
7 And the sort of battles that go
8 on here, often turf battles -- and I don't mean
9 to imply in any sense that you are not dedicated
10 to trying to do what needs to be done to help
11 our hospitals. But the fact is that this is an
12 internal battle which is causing grievous harm.
13 We have these hospitals. I
14 mentioned two of them, great teaching
15 hospitals. There are -- I think you mentioned
16 30 or something like that, all of them trying to
17 provide service to people who need medical care
18 and who can not pay for it or receiving Medicaid
19 and, therefore, the institutions are not fully
20 compensated.
21 We have seen these hospitals go
22 into a virtual state of insolvency. We had a
23 situation where some of these hospitals were
2559
1 unable to buy medical supplies because the
2 vendors wouldn't provide them with credit any
3 longer.
4 We have an obligation to resolve
5 this issue. It's a terribly important program.
6 I'm going to support the bill because I would
7 love to see more money in there for all
8 hospitals. But, Senator, I think that there is
9 an obligation on the part of all of us, and
10 certainly our colleagues in the Assembly too,
11 and the second floor, to resolve this issue and
12 to resolve it quickly.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
14 Mega.
15 SENATOR MEGA: Will Senator Tully
16 yield?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
18 Tully, will you yield?
19 SENATOR TULLY: I will, Mr.
20 President.
21 SENATOR MEGA: Senator Tully,
22 will this bill help the hospitals that need
23 SLIPA funding such as Luther Medical Center in
2560
1 my district and the hospitals that were
2 mentioned by Senator Leichter?
3 SENATOR TULLY: It will, Mr.
4 President, including Brooklyn Hospital, as well.
5 SENATOR MEGA: Thank you.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the
7 last section.
8 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Will
9 Senator Tully yield for a question?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
11 Tully, will you yield to a question?
12 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
13 President.
14 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'm confus
15 ed about something and maybe you can
16 help me out.
17 SENATOR TULLY: Senator, I have
18 difficulty hearing you.
19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'll talk
20 up. Is the problem that the monies going into
21 bad debt and charity pool that is spread much
22 more broadly is objected to by the assembly and,
23 therefore, the monies for SLIPA, which are
2561
1 separate from bad debt and charity, are being
2 held up because the bad debt and charity pool
3 shouldn't be so broad in their opinion?
4 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
6 Tully.
7 SENATOR TULLY: To answer the
8 question, it's as simple as this, Senator
9 Oppenheimer. Traditionally, SLIPA funding has
10 been provided for in the budget. And in the
11 negotiations with our house and the Senate, we
12 have agreed with the SLIPA funding and the
13 hospitals have been funded.
14 This year, no money was provided
15 in the budget by the Governor for SLIPA funding
16 even though the bulk of it relates to hospitals
17 which deal with low income and Medicaid patients
18 primarily through the city and areas that
19 normally you would expect the Governor to
20 support.
21 No money was placed in there.
22 Therefore, the Senate looked into this, our
23 negotiators. We ascertained there was a way to
2562
1 provide the funding without affecting the
2 budget, and that was through the bad debt and
3 charity care pool based on dollars that went
4 back to 1983, dollars that already had been set
5 aside and were not attacked by the very purpose
6 for which the pool was set up. So they were
7 available.
8 What more potent use could you
9 find for those dollars than the ones that are
10 the subject of this bill. This was advanced in
11 negotiation. Advanced in negotiation with the
12 Assembly, and they took it off the table
13 completely.
14 Now, I agree completely with
15 Senator Leichter in the causes that he has
16 advanced and in all the issues that he's
17 advanced, in that, this is something that should
18 and must be done. And we have provided a method
19 to do it that doesn't affect the budget, doesn't
20 affect the taxpayers and solves the problem.
21 And I really fail to understand
22 how it wasn't resolved initially at budget
23 negotiations and why these hospitals and
2563
1 institutions have to wait and have to be on a
2 25-day lag as a result of administrative delay
3 waiting for these dollars. It shouldn't
4 happen.
5 This bill solves the problem, and
6 I urge all of my colleagues to pass it.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
8 Halperin.
9 SENATOR HALPERIN: Senator Tully,
10 would you please yield to a question?
11 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
12 President, I will.
13 SENATOR HALPERIN: Thank you,
14 Senator. The way you described this bill, you
15 are talking about it as the SLIPA bill. But
16 that is a total of $18 million appropriated out
17 of the general fund in this bill. Are you
18 saying that all of that money goes to SLIPA?
19 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
21 Tully.
22 SENATOR TULLY: When I described
23 this bill at the outset, I said this bill
2564
1 related to health reform, hospitals, and serving
2 those hospitals which serve low income and
3 Medicaid patients. The health reform portion of
4 it deals with hospitals in totality in this
5 state as well as SLIPA hospitals again.
6 So SLIPA gets a double hit. It
7 gets the first hit of the $8 million, and it
8 gets part of the $10 million that's associated
9 with the NYPHRM reform.
10 SENATOR HALPERIN: So what is
11 really happening here is that the SLIPA issue
12 has been combined with another issue, and that
13 issue provides additional funding not only to
14 what we might refer to as the SLIPA hospitals,
15 but also to other hospitals. Is that correct?
16 SENATOR TULLY: That's correct,
17 Mr. President.
18 SENATOR HALPERIN: Can you tell
19 us how much of the $18 million would go to the
20 SLIPA program?
21 SENATOR TULLY: $8 million is
22 directly allocated to the SLIPA program, and 10
23 million for additional hospital payments and
2565
1 health reform, part of which goes to SLIPA
2 hospitals, as well.
3 SENATOR HALPERIN: Of the $10
4 million can you tell us how much of that goes to
5 the SLIPA hospitals?
6 SENATOR TULLY: That, Mr.
7 President, will be part of NYPHRM and will be
8 the subject of bipartisan negotiation.
9 SENATOR HALPERIN: So, then, at
10 this point in time, we don't really know the
11 answer to that question, is that correct?
12 SENATOR TULLY: Only as a total
13 amount but not as to which amount does go to
14 each hospital.
15 SENATOR HALPERIN: Also, Senator
16 Tully, if you will be so kind as to respond to
17 another question.
18 As I heard you describe the
19 history of the budget negotiations, it was
20 something to the effect of that the Assembly
21 didn't want to go along with putting the SLIPA
22 money into the budget and that there was some
23 kind of pressure coming from the Governor not to
2566
1 do that?
2 SENATOR TULLY: That's my
3 understanding, Senator Halperin.
4 SENATOR HALPERIN: Would you say
5 that it was ever the position of the Senate
6 Republicans to put SLIPA money into the budget
7 without linking it to the additional $10 million
8 that we see it linked to in this bill?
9 SENATOR TULLY: The answer to
10 that question is no, it was not ever the Senate
11 position to do it separately. We advanced both
12 because they were both needed. Because in the
13 intervening time during which the negotiations
14 took place, the information came to the Senate
15 as to the President's proposal and the impact it
16 was going to be to the hospitals. And I might
17 tell you that the proposal we've advanced today
18 is supported by the Hospital Association of New
19 York State.
20 SENATOR HALPERIN: Thank you very
21 much, Senator.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
23 Halperin on the bill.
2567
1 SENATOR HALPERIN: On the bill.
2 Setting aside the issue of the need of the
3 hospitals of this state for additional monies
4 because, clearly, it is difficult for the
5 hospitals of this state to continue to function
6 under existing circumstances and they could use
7 more monies -- I dare say we could say the
8 schools could use more money. We could say that
9 any number of other worthy causes in this state
10 could use more money.
11 But the truth of the matter is
12 that the SLIPA issue, as I understand it, was
13 attempted to be addressed by the Assembly in the
14 budget as a separate issue. And to try to
15 somehow say that the Assembly backed off funding
16 SLIPA through the general fund is perhaps
17 revisionist history which is not something we
18 should be dealing with on the same day as we
19 passed a resolution commemorating the Holocaust,
20 because we are constantly fighting the revision
21 of history. And yes, here we see what I started
22 to hear but I'm glad we cleared it up, some
23 revisionist history. Because it was always, as
2568
1 I understand it, the position of the Assembly
2 and the desire of the Assembly to include the $8
3 million.
4 As a matter of fact, I think,
5 according to some of the proponents of the SLIPA
6 program, that $7 million would probably do the
7 trick, and yet it was always the position of the
8 Senate Majority, as I understand it, to link the
9 two as you seem to be demonstrating in this
10 bill.
11 The problem is not that we would
12 not want to give more money to hospitals but
13 that we obviously have a lack of money in the
14 budget, that this money is not provided for in
15 the fiscal plan, and that what we really should
16 be doing is looking for a source of funding
17 which, as you indicated, has been proposed to be
18 the bad debt and charity pool, and then we will
19 know that we have a source of money to pay for
20 SLIPA.
21 Whether or not we should be
22 trying to provide additional monies through
23 NYPHRM when you can't even tell us how that
2569
1 money will be distributed to hospitals, I think
2 is a separate issue. Maybe there are those of
3 us who would be convinced that if we did have
4 additional monies we could provide it to the
5 hospitals through the NYPHRM formula.
6 But I just want to make it clear
7 that we are doing more in this -- even though
8 you did allude to it in your opening
9 statement -- that we're doing more in this bill
10 than simply providing money to the SLIPA
11 program.
12 Nevertheless, in an effort to try
13 to keep this process moving, if the passage of
14 this what I dare say will be a one-house bill
15 will help to focus on the issue, then
16 understanding what we're doing, and not thinking
17 it's only for SLIPA, not thinking that the
18 Assembly wouldn't go along with perhaps $7
19 million for SLIPA, then I will vote for this
20 legislation as well. But I think that we
21 really should be joining together, both houses
22 with the Governor, in coming up with something
23 we can all live with and that will be funded.
2570
1 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
2 Solomon.
3 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President.
4 Will Senator Tully yield please.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
6 Tully, would you yield?
7 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
8 President.
9 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator,
10 Senator Halperin in his question just asked you
11 about the percentage that would go to SLIPA
12 hospitals from the $10 million additional, in
13 addition to the addition to the eight, and you
14 said that would be determined by the NYPHRM
15 negotiations. But I would like to know, in
16 terms of this bill, on page 1, line 8, it says
17 through December 31, 1993. Is not that the same
18 date that NYPHRM expires?
19 SENATOR TULLY: That's correct.
20 SENATOR SOLOMON: So can't we
21 determine what percentage of money that $10
22 million would be able to go to SLIPA based upon
23 the current formula of NYPHRM?
2571
1 SENATOR TULLY: That part is no
2 difficulty, Mr. President, because that part
3 refers to existing SLIPA allocation which is
4 done by formula in the Public Health Law which
5 is the existing NYPHRM IV statute.
6 SENATOR SOLOMON: Correct. So of
7 that ten million, roughly, what additional sum
8 to the best of your knowledge, would go towards
9 SLIPA hospitals?
10 SENATOR TULLY: There are three
11 separate portions to this particular bill,
12 Senator, and let me break them down for you.
13 Section 1 extends SLIPA from
14 March 31 to December 31.
15 Section 2 provides for the
16 transfer to Medicaid, if you will, the medical
17 assistance program, general fund, of $18 million
18 from the undistributed balance of the bad debt
19 and charity care pools.
20 Now section 3 appropriates the
21 $18 million dollars to the Department of Social
22 Services Medicaid program to provide $8 million
23 in additional SLIPA payments and $10 million for
2572
1 additional reimbursement to the hospitals and
2 health-related services pursuant to a chapter of
3 the laws of 1993 affecting general hospital
4 reimbursement. That chapter will be NYPHRM V.
5 So it does not relate to the existing one.
6 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay. We have
7 to pass NYPHRM V.
8 Thank you, Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
10 Espada.
11 SENATOR ESPADA: Will Senator
12 Tully yield to a question, please?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator,
14 will you yield to a question?
15 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
16 President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
18 Tully yields.
19 SENATOR ESPADA: The discussion I
20 think has been fruitful in that now I understand
21 this breakout of the eight and ten. Because
22 certainly with respect to SLIPA and the $8
23 million, I would certainly support that. I
2573
1 don't think that any abrupt change in
2 reimbursement mechanisms is fair to anyone.
3 However, there are those of us
4 that look to NYPHRM V as perhaps affording us
5 some real opportunity to change the course of
6 health care at least as it relates to deficit
7 financing and the provision of quality primary
8 care at the local neighborhood level.
9 I ask you by separating out this
10 $10 million and calling it health care reform,
11 have we not limited ourselves in our ability to
12 think through how best to deliver primary care,
13 neighborhood-based care which is now, when it's
14 provided at the hospital emergency room and
15 out-patient clinics, a much more costly venture
16 than we would all want. Perhaps you can address
17 yourself to that point, please.
18 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
19 President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
21 Tully.
22 SENATOR TULLY: Senator Espada,
23 you raise a very, very good point.
2574
1 The fact of the matter is that
2 the $10 million, in addition, that's generated
3 for NYPHRM is directed directly in that area to
4 prevention to primary care. As you know, there
5 will be a proposal coming from the executive I
6 expect within the next week or two dealing with
7 NYPHRM. Within that same framework of time or
8 somewhere nearby, he will have the proposal of
9 the Council on Health Care Financing which will
10 deal with NYPHRM, as well.
11 Both of those will not be too
12 disparate in the sense that they will be dealing
13 with health care reform as you've suggested,
14 pointing the gun at primary care and pointing
15 the gun at prevention. Because that's the goal
16 we have to attack, together with quality of care
17 and affordability.
18 All of that will be encompassed
19 within NYPHRM dealing with health care reform
20 which it never really did before because NYPHRM
21 was dealing strictly with hospital financing and
22 hospital funding. And this time, it's going to
23 be a little different.
2575
1 SENATOR ESPADA: If I may, Mr.
2 President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
4 Espada on the bill.
5 SENATOR ESPADA: No, a follow-up
6 question.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Will you
8 yield again?
9 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, I will, Mr.
10 President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
12 will yield.
13 SENATOR ESPADA: Just so I can be
14 totally comfortable with this. Can I take that
15 to mean that in your platform, in your health
16 care reform proposals, that you will see an
17 opportunity for diagnostic and treatment
18 centers, other non-traditional non-hospital
19 providers, to share in what is now bad debt and
20 charity pool deficit financing? Can I take
21 that?
22 SENATOR TULLY: The answer to
23 that question is yes, Mr. President.
2576
1 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you very
2 much.
3 SENATOR TULLY: You're welcome,
4 Senator Espada.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Read the
6 last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: The bill
14 is passed.
15 Senator Stafford.
16 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr.
17 President. I wish to call up my bill, Print
18 Number 3287.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Secretary
20 will read.
21 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
22 Stafford, Senate Bill Number 3287, legalize,
23 validate, ratify and confirm the acts of the
2577
1 town board, county of Clinton.
2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr.
3 President. I now move to reconsider the vote by
4 which this bill was passed.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll on
8 reconsideration. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: It is
11 restored to third reading.
12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr.
13 President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senator
15 Present.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
17 There being no further business, I move that we
18 adjourn until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DALY: Senate
20 stands adjourned until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m.
21 (Whereupon, at 5:33 p.m., the
22 Senate adjourned. )
23