Regular Session - April 27, 1993
2709
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 April 27, 1993
10 3:35 p.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 SENATOR CHRISTOPHER J. MEGA, Acting President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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2710
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senate
3 will come to order. Please stand for the Pledge
4 of Allegiance.
5 (Whereupon, the Senate joined in
6 the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. )
7 In the absence of clergy, may we
8 bow our heads for a moment of prayer.
9 (Whereupon, there was a moment of
10 silence. )
11 Reading of the Journal.
12 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
13 Monday, April 26. The Senate met pursuant to
14 adjournment. Senator Kuhl in the Chair upon
15 designation of the Temporary President. The
16 Journal of Sunday, April 25, was read and
17 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Hearing
19 no objection, the Journal stands approved as
20 read.
21 Presentation of petitions.
22 Messages from the Assembly.
23 Messages from the Governor.
2711
1 Reports of standing committees.
2 Secretary will read.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
4 from the Committee on Finance, reports the
5 following nominations:
6 Member of the State Medical
7 Advisory Committee to the Department of Social
8 Services, Randall D. Bloomfield, M.D., of
9 Brooklyn.
10 Member of the State Camp Safety
11 Advisory Council, Meir Frischman, of Brooklyn.
12 Member of the Small Business
13 Advisory Board, Paul Kessler of Island Park.
14 Member of the Central New York
15 Regional Transportation Authority, Robert C.
16 Sprague of Syracuse.
17 Member of the Board of Visitors
18 of the New York State Home for Veterans and
19 Their Dependents at Oxford, Lily Bishop, of
20 Brooktondale and Mary Smack of Binghamton.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: On the
22 nominations. All those in favor, aye.
23 (Response of "Aye.")
2712
1 Those opposed, nay.
2 (There was no response. )
3 The nominations are carried.
4 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
6 Daly.
7 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. On
8 page 16, I offer the following amendments to
9 Calendar Number 346, Senate 3860, and ask that
10 said bill retain its place on the Third Reading
11 Calendar. I do that for Senator Skelos.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
13 objection.
14 SENATOR DALY: On behalf of
15 Senator Levy, on page 25, I offer the following
16 amendments to Calendar Number 186, Senate Print
17 Number 2000, and ask that said bill retain its
18 place on the Third Reading Calendar.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
20 objection.
21 Senator Saland.
22 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President.
23 On page 22, Calendar Number 456, Senate 3286, I
2713
1 would like to place a sponsor star on that bill.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
3 is starred.
4 Senator Present.
5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
6 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar
7 with the exception of Resolution 1135.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: All those
9 in favor, aye.
10 (Response of "Aye.")
11 Those opposed, nay.
12 (There was no response. )
13 The Resolution Calendar is
14 adopted.
15 Senator Tully.
16 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President. I
17 believe I have a resolution at the desk, 1135.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Secretary
19 will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
21 Resolution 1135, by Senator Tully, recognizing
22 the week of May 6th through the 12th as Nurses
23 Weak in New York State and honoring the eight
2714
1 individuals selected as Regional Nurses of
2 Distinction.
3 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
4 May I have the resolution read in its entirety.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
6 objection.
7 THE SECRETARY: Whereas, the week
8 of May 6th to May 12th, 1993 is Nurses Week in
9 New York State.
10 The nurses of New York have, by
11 dedicating their lives to the health and dignity
12 of their fellow New Yorkers, contributed
13 significantly to the well-being of the citizens
14 of our state.
15 The New York State Legislature
16 developed the Nurse of Distinction Award Program
17 to pay tribute to New York State's registered
18 professional nurses for their steadfast
19 commitment in the support of the health and
20 betterment of fellow New Yorkers.
21 The outstanding achievements of
22 thousands of our state's registered professional
23 nurses have been acknowledged through the 1993
2715
1 Nurse of Distinction Award Program, and 319
2 distinctive nurses were nominated for the
3 award.
4 Eight Regional Nurses of
5 Distinction were selected by nursing peers from
6 throughout the state for their professional
7 excellence and unequivocal dedication in support
8 of the health and betterment of their fellow New
9 Yorkers.
10 Now, therefore be it resolved,
11 that this legislative body pause in its
12 deliberations to express its deep respect and
13 appreciation to all New York State's
14 distinguished nurses and to recognize the unique
15 contributions made by the eight Regional Nurses
16 of Distinction:
17 Dorothy A. Pezzoli, Department of
18 Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Northport;
19 Leah Epstein Harrison, Montefiore
20 Medical Center, Bronx;
21 Sharon Paul, Brooklyn Hospital
22 Center, Brooklyn;
23 Johanna Lee, Nyack Hospital
2716
1 Certified Home Health Agency, Valley Cottage;
2 Laurie J. Murphy, Ellis Hospital,
3 Schenectady;
4 Sondra O. Pruden, Broome County
5 Health Department, Binghamton;
6 Karen Hibbard, Highland Hospital,
7 Rochester; and
8 Marilyn R. Englert, Department of
9 Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Buffalo.
10 And, be it further resolved, that
11 this legislative body seek to encourage
12 statewide recognition of those valued nursing
13 professionals serving our communities in both
14 institutional and noninstitutional settings; and
15 Be it further resolved that this
16 legislative body pause in its deliberations to
17 acknowledge the week of May 6 through May 12,
18 1993 as Nurses Week in New York State; and
19 Be it further resolved, that
20 copies of this resolution, suitably embossed, be
21 transmitted to the eight 1993 New York State
22 Legislature Regional Nurses of Distinction with
23 our pride and gratitude.
2717
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
2 Tully.
3 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
4 President. A group of more than 400 very
5 special New Yorkers is with us here in Albany
6 today and tomorrow for the fifth New York State
7 Legislators Nurse of Distinction Conference.
8 The conference culminates the
9 Nurse of Distinction Award Program year. I have
10 been honored to be one of the legislative
11 sponsors for the program since its inception in
12 1989, and am very pleased to have been named by
13 Senate Majority Leader Marino earlier this year
14 to become the legislative coordinator.
15 Over the course of the five years
16 of the program, more than 2,000 of our state's
17 professional nurses have been recognized for the
18 important contributions they have made in
19 establishing the excellent standards of medical
20 care we share in New York State.
21 On the Senate calendar today is
22 the resolution previously read acknowledging the
23 up coming Nurses Week in New York State and all
2718
1 of the 319 nurses from throughout our state be
2 ing honored at the Nurse of Distinction
3 Conference.
4 Eight of the 319 nurses nominated
5 by their facilities for this recognition have
6 been chosen as Regional Nurses of Distinction.
7 They represent eight geographic areas of our
8 state, and I would like to introduce them to you
9 at this time.
10 From Long Island, Dorothy Pez
11 zoli, from the Northport V.A. Medical Center.
12 From Greater New York Region 1,
13 which includes Richmond, New York and Bronx
14 Counties, Leah Epstein Harrison, from Montefiore
15 Medical Center in the Bronx.
16 From Greater New York Region 2,
17 which includes Kings and Queens counties, Sharon
18 Paul, from the Brooklyn Hospital Center.
19 From the Northern Metropolitan
20 Region, Johanna Lee, from the Nyack Hospital
21 Certified Home Health Agency.
22 From the Northeastern Region,
23 Laurie Murphy, from Ellis Hospital in
2719
1 Schenectady.
2 From the Central New York Region,
3 Sondra Pruden from the Broome County Department
4 of Health in Binghamton.
5 From the Finger Lakes Region,
6 Karen Hibbard, from the Highland Hospital in
7 Rochester.
8 And from the Western New York
9 Region, Marilyn Englert from the Buffalo V.A.
10 Medical Center.
11 Congratulations to each of you
12 and our deepest thanks for the excellent work
13 you are doing to enhance the quality of life for
14 our state's residents.
15 Mr. President. At this time, I
16 would like to offer to any and all of my
17 colleagues the opportunity to join me in
18 sponsoring this resolution, and I would hope you
19 would extend the full greetings of the house to
20 our wonderful Nurses of Distinction.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Thank
22 you, Senator Tully.
23 Senator Stachowski.
2720
1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I rise
2 joining with Senator Tully in wishing all of the
3 Nurse of Distinction winners our
4 congratulations.
5 And I would like to make one
6 comment to them that I made to them out in the
7 hallway. I have always felt that nurses are
8 underpaid and in some cases underappreciated.
9 And I only hope some day the rest of us will all
10 appreciate that and we'll be able to get them
11 more money.
12 Thank you.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Thank
14 you, Senator Stachowski.
15 Any other Senator who would wish
16 to speak on the resolution?
17 The resolution is open at the
18 desk. All Senators who wish to be on the
19 resolution will indicate to the Secretary that
20 they wish to be on the resolution.
21 Senator Tully, thank you for the
22 resolution and thank you for presenting the
23 Distinguished Nurses to this body.
2721
1 And on behalf of the entire body
2 and on behalf of the Majority Leader, Senator
3 Marino, we welcome you. We congratulate you for
4 what you do. You are on the front lines of
5 health care in a service that is needed and
6 given to our constituents. So we welcome you
7 and wish that you continue to be in this
8 profession as long as you desire, and we give
9 our best wishes not only to you but to all the
10 nurses of the state that you represent, and
11 congratulations.
12 (Applause)
13 All those in favor of the
14 resolution, signify by saying aye.
15 (Response of "Aye.")
16 All those opposed, nay.
17 (There was no response. )
18 The resolution is unanimously
19 adopted.
20 Senator Present.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
22 I believe there are some reports from standing
23 committees at the desk. May we have those read,
2722
1 please.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Yes.
3 Secretary will road.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mega from
5 the Committee on Judiciary reports the following
6 bill directly for third reading:
7 Senate Bill Number 4595, by
8 Senator Marino and others, proposing an
9 amendment to the constitution in relation to
10 filling a vacancy in the office of the
11 Comptroller and Attorney General.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
13 objection, the bill is reported to Third Reading
14 Calendar.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman
16 from the Committee on Investigations, Taxation,
17 and Government Operations reports the following
18 bill directly for third reading:
19 Senate Bill Number 4596, by
20 Senator Marino and others, an act to amend the
21 Public Officers Law and the Election Law, in
22 relation to providing for a referendum of
23 preference by electors for candidates to fill
2723
1 vacancies.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
3 objection, the bill is reported to Third Reading
4 Calendar.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin
6 from the Committee on Local Government reports
7 the following bill directly for third reading:
8 Senate Bill Number 4541, by
9 Senator Spano, an act to authorize the village
10 of Tuckahoe, Westchester County, to finance a
11 deficit, its general fund, by the issuance of
12 serial bonds.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
14 objection, the bill is reported to the Third
15 Reading Calendar.
16 Motions and resolutions.
17 Secretary will read.
18 THE SECRETARY: On page 6 of
19 today's calendar, Senator Velella moves to
20 discharge the Committee on Insurance from
21 Assembly Bill Number 6187 and substitute it for
22 the identical Calendar Number 493.
23 On page 7, Senator Hannon moves
2724
1 to discharge the Committee on Insurance from
2 Assembly Bill Number 6927 and substitute it for
3 the identical Calendar Number 497.
4 On page 22, Senator Volker moves
5 to discharge the Committee on Codes from
6 Assembly Bill Number 6457 and substitute it for
7 the identical Third Reading 458.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA:
9 Substitutions ordered.
10 Senator Present, that concludes
11 the house cleaning business. We are now ready
12 for the calendar.
13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
14 Let's take up the non-controversial calendar,
15 please.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA:
17 Non-controversial calendar. The Secretary will
18 read.
19 THE SECRETARY: On page 10,
20 Calendar Number 52, by Senator Maltese, Senate
21 Bill Number 92, an act to amend the Public
22 Authorities Law, in relation to the appointment
23 of members of the New York City Water Board.
2725
1 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay it
3 aside.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 53, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 134,
6 Public Authorities Law and the State Finance
7 Law, in relation to revenues.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay it
10 aside.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 421, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 3197,
13 an act to amend the Family Court Act.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
15 last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
23 is passed.
2726
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 422, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 3759,
3 Domestic Relations Law, in relation to orders
4 for child custody and support.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
6 last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
14 is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 423, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4331,
17 Family Court Act, in relation to authorizing
18 fees for probation services in Family Court.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
21 bill aside.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 425, by Senator Babbush, Senate Bill Number 904,
2727
1 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its
2 interest in certain real property.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: There is
4 a home rule message at the desk.
5 Read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
13 is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 426, by Senator Velella, Senate Bill Number
16 1280, authorizing the city of New York to
17 reconvey its interest in certain real property.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: There is
19 a home rule message at the desk.
20 Read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
2728
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
5 is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 427, by Senator Nolan, Senate Bill Number 3438,
8 an act to amend the city charter of the city of
9 Cohoes.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
11 last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll. )
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
19 is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 428, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 3727,
22 General Municipal Law.
23 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside.
2729
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
2 bill aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 429, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 116,
5 Education Law, in relation to authorizing
6 instruction regarding child development.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
8 last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
15 Jones to explain her vote.
16 SENATOR JONES: No, Mr.
17 President. I would like to ask a question.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
19 bill aside. Withdraw the roll call and lay the
20 bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar number
22 430, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number
23 2243A, Education Law, in relation to use of
2730
1 school buildings for child care services.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
3 last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 433, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number
14 3451, Education Law, in relation to
15 reorganization incentive building aid.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
17 last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
2731
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 435, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 1098,
5 Environmental Conservation Law, in relation to
6 the definition of an inactive hazardous waste
7 disposal site.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
9 last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
13 roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll. )
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 437.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
22 bill aside.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2732
1 438, by member of the Assembly Brodsky, Assembly
2 Bill Number 4009, Environmental Conservation
3 Law.
4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Lay it aside
5 for amendment, please.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
7 bill aside for amendments.
8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Don't take it
9 up any more today.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
11 bill aside for the day.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 439, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
14 4307, Environmental Conservation Law, in
15 relation to wild life management.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
17 last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
2733
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 440, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
5 4376, Environmental Conservation Law, in
6 relation to authorizing the Department of
7 Environmental Conservation to dispose of surplus
8 products.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
10 last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
18 is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 441, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 464,
21 Social Services Law and the Tax Law, in relation
22 to evaluating employment and training programs.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
2734
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
2 Gold.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Will the sponsor
4 be kind enough to let us have a day on this,
5 please?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Lay it
8 aside for the day.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
10 bill aside for the day.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 444, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 3372,
13 an act to amend the Energy Law, the
14 Environmental Conservation Law, and the
15 Transportation Law.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
17 last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
2735
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 448, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
5 2372.
6 SENATOR HALPERIN: Lay it aside.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
9 bill aside.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 449, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 2459,
12 an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
13 unauthorized use of an emergency vehicle.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
15 last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
23 is passed.
2736
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 450, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number
3 2732A, Civil Practice Law and Rules, in relation
4 to the elimination of fees in connection with
5 service of information subpoenas.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
7 last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
15 is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 451, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2990.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
20 bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 452.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
2737
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay that
2 bill aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 453, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 3106,
5 an act to amend the Penal Law.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
7 last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
15 is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 454, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3165,
18 an act to amend the Penal Law.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
20 last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
2738
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
5 is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 455, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 3237.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
10 bill aside.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 457, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3323,
13 an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
14 including criminal sale of a controlled
15 substance.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: We're on
17 Calendar 457.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay it
20 aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 459, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number
23 3371, Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to
2739
1 including day constables of the village of South
2 Nyack.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
4 last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54, nays 2.
11 Senators Gold and Leichter recorded in the
12 negative. Also Senator Galiber recorded in the
13 negative.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
15 is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 460, by Senator Volker.
18 SENATOR ONORATO: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay it
20 aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 461, by Senator Maltese, Senate Bill Number
23 3793, Civil Rights Law.
2740
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
2 last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
10 is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 485, by Senator Larkin.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
15 bill aside.
16 Senator Present, that concludes
17 the non-controversial calendar.
18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
19 let's take up the controversial calendar,
20 please.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA:
22 Controversial calendar. Secretary will read.
23 THE SECRETARY: On page 10,
2741
1 Calendar Number 52, by Senator Maltese, Senate
2 Bill Number 92, Public Authorities Law, in
3 relation to the appointment of members of the
4 New York City Water Board.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
7 Maltese, explanation requested.
8 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
9 the purpose of this legislation is to change the
10 manner in which members of the New York City
11 Water Board are appointed.
12 The summary of the provisions:
13 The Public Authorities Law would be amended by
14 allowing five members of the Water Board to be
15 appointed by the City Council, one member to be
16 appointed by the Mayor, and one member to be
17 appointed by the president of the City Council.
18 Mr. President, the main purpose
19 of the bill would be to expand the authority of
20 the board from simply being appointees of the
21 Mayor to being appointees of the City Council,
22 and to have the Water Board as a more responsive
23 agency to the people and to remove it somewhat
2742
1 from the control of the Mayor. The Mayor would
2 still have one appointee on the Water Board.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
4 Gold.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Will Senator
6 yield to a question?
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator,
9 do you yield? Senator yields.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, the bill
11 is really pretty straightforward; but, as you
12 know, there is obviously a memo in opposition by
13 the Mayor, and I'm sure the bill is supported
14 roundly by the City Council, but in terms of
15 governance in the City, Senator, I mean why? Why
16 are we doing this?
17 The Mayor is certainly a
18 representative of the people of the city of New
19 York, and we talk about changing the board so
20 that it reflects the will of the people. I
21 don't want to put words in your mouth. Whatever
22 you said, something like that I thought. I mean
23 right now, this is a function that's being
2743
1 carried out. We have a Mayor in the City, and
2 he appoints a board.
3 Is the board acting improperly?
4 Has there been a problem? Why are we doing this
5 other than to sort of spread the wealth
6 politically to give people appointments?
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
8 in response to Senator Gold's query, there have
9 been many complaints of constituents in various
10 parts of the city of New York with relation to
11 water and sewer rates.
12 The theory behind the legislation
13 is that by making the members of the City
14 Council participate in the appointments of the
15 board, it would give the people easier access to
16 have their complaints handled. I have myself as
17 of other Senators representing constituents in
18 the City spoken to the Mayor with reference to
19 these complaints. He has been responsive to
20 some of the inquiries that I have made on behalf
21 of the constituents. At the same time I do feel
22 that with the onerous responsibility of the
23 entire city of New York to have to appeal
2744
1 directly to the Mayor on matters of this kind
2 would be circuitous, and it would facilitate the
3 decreasing of water and sewer rates in order to
4 put the City Council in a position of
5 responsibility as far as the appointment of the
6 members.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
9 Gold.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I
11 don't think this is the overwhelming issue of
12 the year, but -- and certainly, I don't think
13 that the president -- sorry, the Majority Leader
14 of the City Council, the Speaker of the City
15 Council has a greater fan in New York than me.
16 I think he is terrific, and I think that Peter
17 Vallone has taken the City Council through this
18 metamorphosis of the new charter and made it a
19 very, very viable body. I don't think that's an
20 issue at all.
21 I do think, however, that Senator
22 Maltese's arguments really do stretch it a
23 little bit. I'm delighted that Senator Maltese
2745
1 in his usual frank way, said that when there was
2 a problem and he contacted the Mayor, they were
3 responsive. But the board ought to be
4 responsive whether it is appointed by the Mayor
5 or whether they are recommendations from the
6 City Council.
7 I would imagine that many of us
8 should be embarrassed when we see over and over
9 again articles written about, "It's not what you
10 know; it's who you know," and whatever; and if
11 there is something not right, it shouldn't be a
12 question of always having to know somebody to
13 get it taken care ever.
14 We are talking now about water/
15 sewer rates. One of the concerns that the Mayor
16 raises in his memo is whether or not this is a
17 flag to the bondholders in the investment
18 community because you are dealing with issues of
19 rating.
20 Senator Maltese, I would not stay
21 awake at night if this bill passes. I won't
22 have sleepless nights one way or the other, but
23 I do think that the City Council under the
2746
1 leadership of Speaker Vallone has done very
2 important things for the City and is growing. I
3 just don't see the necessity of making this
4 particular change. I don't see where it helps
5 the City, and I just want to point out to the
6 members that there is in fact a memo in
7 opposition from the Mayor's office.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
9 Padavan.
10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President,
11 in regard to the bill before us.
12 If there is one single issue that
13 I receive a great deal of constituent input on
14 and complaints, it is relevant to the actions of
15 the Water Board in the city of New York, with
16 regard to their cavalier and almost arbitrary
17 procedure in establishing rates, mistakes that
18 are made ad nauseum.
19 Just two weeks ago, I received a
20 visit from a constituent that had in her hand a
21 bill from the Water Board for their one-family
22 home in the amount of over $10,000. It will
23 take weeks if not months to straighten that mess
2747
1 out.
2 Now, when we tell people and we
3 urge people to contact their City Council
4 because it fundamentally is a City issue, the
5 response we get back is, "The City Councilman
6 says he can't do anything about it because these
7 people are all appointed by the Mayor over which
8 they have no control."
9 Now, I don't mean to imply that
10 when we contact the Water Board they don't
11 eventually respond and do their best, hopefully,
12 not in every instance but in many instances to
13 correct the problem. But if the City Council
14 under charter revision which we authorized and
15 which the people sustained by referendum is to
16 have the authority to deal with those City
17 services, particularly with regards to fiscal
18 matters -- indebtedness, as an example. This
19 authority floats an awful lot of bonds. It's a
20 quasi-governmental agency in the sense that it
21 is an independent agency, with no control by the
22 City Council and no input.
23 We did pass a bill yesterday in
2748
1 this chamber which will allow the City Council
2 to have oversight over many of these independent
3 agencies like OTB and the Water Board and so on,
4 but that is yet to become law. The fact
5 remains, we feel the sponsors of this
6 legislation and many representatives within city
7 government, that if the makeup of this board is
8 reflective to some degree of the wishes of the
9 people in the various counties, boroughs, of the
10 City by virtue of input from the City Council,
11 then the degree of arrogance -- and on occasion
12 it is just that -- that taxpayers, homeowners,
13 business owners, feel with regard to the Water
14 Board will be somewhat diminished. Hopefully,
15 substantially diminished.
16 We have an apartment house in the
17 city of New York who are now getting water bills
18 that are greater than their property tax bills.
19 You have heard from some of them, those of you
20 in the city of New York, and they are telling us
21 they are going to have to abandon their
22 property. We say, "Well, go to the Water Board;
23 something has got to be done about this."
2749
1 "Well, we have and we get a
2 blank stare, a blank wall, no response."
3 Now, I don't suggest to you that
4 this bill alone in terms of an appointment
5 process will be the solution to all those
6 difficulties, ameliorate all those problems, but
7 I certainly think it's a step in the right
8 direction.
9 And the precedent is set. There
10 are many state boards and authorities where
11 members are there either by recommendation or
12 selection or nomination from the Legislature,
13 this Legislature, and they are confirmed by the
14 Senate. So this is not an obtuse or unusual
15 procedure or mechanism that we are suggesting
16 should be in place. There is more than enough
17 precedent for it.
18 We are hopeful that if that board
19 becomes more sympathetic, representative, and
20 responsive to the people of the city of New York
21 that that can be accomplished through this
22 mechanism. So I strongly support this bill and
23 urge all of you, particularly those outside the
2750
1 city of New York who may not be aware of the
2 kinds of problems we are experiencing to support
3 it.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
5 last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
12 the negative on Calendar Number 52 are Senators
13 Galiber, Gold, Stachowski, and Waldon. Ayes 54,
14 nays 4.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
16 is passed.
17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
19 Padavan.
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
21 With regard -- on page 18, Calendar Number 429,
22 may I have the vote by which that bill passed
23 reconsidered, please.
2751
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 429 was
2 laid aside, Senator Padavan.
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you very
4 much.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Secretary
6 will continue the calendar.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 53, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 134,
9 an act to amend the Public Authorities Law and
10 the State Finance Law.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: There is
12 a local fiscal impact statement at the desk.
13 Read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
21 is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 423, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4331,
2752
1 an act to amend the Family Court Act.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: May I ask a
3 question of the sponsor?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
5 Saland, do you yield to Senator Skelos?
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Saland,
7 it's my understanding that this bill would allow
8 local probation departments to charge fees for
9 the study in private placement adoption cases.
10 Is that correct?
11 SENATOR SALAND: Correct, on a
12 scale of $50 to a maximum of $500 based upon the
13 means of the petitioner.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Presently, can
15 the probation department -- and I really don't
16 know the answer to this -- charge fees in other
17 types of investigative matters that they
18 conduct?
19 SENATOR SALAND: Not in all, but
20 I do believe that they can in some. But I could
21 verify that for you if you'd like to put this
22 over until the end of calendar, and I can tell
23 you what those proceedings are. I do believe
2753
1 they can in some.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: That's up to
3 you. Do you want to lay it aside now?
4 SENATOR SALAND: If that's your
5 interest, I would certainly like to answer that
6 for you unequivocally.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Okay. And just
8 one other question. Under this legislation, I
9 understand that the money would go to the local
10 probation district, and it would not affect
11 their state aid in the future.
12 SENATOR SALAND: Correct.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Would this money
14 within the local probation department then have
15 to be targeted towards whatever adoption type
16 services and investigations they conduct or
17 would it just go into their general fund?
18 SENATOR SALAND: I believe as
19 it's drafted, it goes into their general fund
20 for their general use.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: So we are going
22 to now charge for their services in private
23 placement adoptions.
2754
1 SENATOR SALAND: On a sliding
2 scale, this would enable that to happen. But
3 let me lay this aside until the end of the
4 calendar so I can answer your other question.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
6 is temporarily laid aside at the request of the
7 sponsor.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 428, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 3727.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Lay the
12 bill aside.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 429, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number 116.
15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Lay that aside,
16 please.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
18 is laid aside at the request of the sponsor.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 437, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2632,
21 Environmental Conservation Law and the State
22 Finance Law.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
2755
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA:
2 Explanation requested.
3 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, can
4 we come back to that?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
6 is temporarily laid aside.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 448, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
9 2372, an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation
10 to possessing an obscene sexual performance by a
11 child.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on one
13 second. 448?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: 448,
15 Senator Johnson's bill, page 21.
16 SENATOR HALPERIN: Explanation.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA:
18 Explanation requested. Senator Johnson.
19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
20 This bill makes it illegal to knowingly possess
21 any material containing sexual performance of a
22 child under 16 years of age. Makes it a class E
23 felony.
2756
1 This bill has been with us before
2 for several years. It was passed each time.
3 Perfectly legal and constitutional and should be
4 adopted by this house.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
6 Halperin.
7 SENATOR HALPERIN: Mr.
8 President. Yes, I believe there is an amendment
9 at the desk.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Yes.
11 SENATOR HALPERIN: I waive its
12 reading, seek to explain it.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
14 Halperin to explain his amendment to Senator
15 Johnson's bill.
16 SENATOR HALPERIN: As Senator
17 Johnson just indicated this legislation has been
18 debated now for two or three years. And when
19 the issue was first raised, the point that I
20 tried to make is that when an individual
21 purchases a magazine, that individual may know
22 that there are other individuals depicted in the
23 nude in that magazine and that perhaps they are
2757
1 depicted in a pornographic manner, but in many
2 cases, there is really no way to determine the
3 age of the individuals who are being depicted.
4 Now, clearly, if the individuals being depicted
5 are of a very, very young age and are obviously
6 undeveloped children, then a purchaser of a
7 magazine would have every reason in the world to
8 understand what it was that they are
9 purchasing. But there is a certain area, a
10 certain age at which one does not know whether
11 an individual is a child or an adult, and this
12 bill is properly targeted at that age in the
13 sense in an anyone under the age of 16 would
14 serve as the basis for a conviction under this
15 bill, but one does not always know from looking
16 at at a photograph whether the individual being
17 depicted is under the age of 16 or over the age
18 of 16.
19 Now, we are not dealing here with
20 pornographers. We are not dealing here with
21 people who are purveying sexual magazines.
22 We're dealing with individuals who are
23 purchasing a magazine in many cases solely for
2758
1 their own use. And to end up throwing some of
2 these people in prison because they happened to
3 purchase a magazine that had someone under the
4 age of 16 in it when they didn't even know that,
5 to me, should not be the purpose of our criminal
6 justice system.
7 The intent behind this bill, as
8 explained in years gone by, is to discourage
9 individuals from buying child pornography. Now,
10 how do we discourage somebody from doing
11 something when they don't know what it is they
12 are doing?
13 So my bill -- or my amendment,
14 rather, which is in fact a bill but which I'm
15 offering up as an amendment, states that it is
16 up to the prosecution to prove as an element of
17 the crime that the individual who purchased the
18 magazine or whatever other material we're
19 discussing knew or should have known that the
20 individual depicted was under age.
21 The way the law is written now,
22 these individuals who are purchasing a magazine
23 have the burden thrown upon them to somehow
2759
1 prove that they did not know the age of the
2 person. Now, to subject otherwise honest
3 people, law-abiding people, to arrest and
4 indictment even if not eventual conviction is,
5 to my mind, both an injustice and a waste of our
6 criminal justice resources unless the stated
7 purpose of the legislation as offered is being
8 realized; and that is, to discourage people from
9 doing something that they know they are doing.
10 So the first thing that my bill
11 does is to make as an element of the crime the
12 knowledge of the age of the individual.
13 The second thing the bill does is
14 to create a situation where, under the first
15 offense, there will be a penalty of an "A"
16 misdemeanor, and should there be a second
17 offense within five years, then the "E" felony
18 would be applicable. I think that that's more
19 reasonable, once again, dealing with people who
20 are not producing this material, because they
21 are covered by another section of law which has
22 even harsher penalties and properly so -- I
23 voted for that bill when it came up -- or
2760
1 individuals who are selling it on an ongoing
2 basis who are also then subject to another more
3 harsh provision of law.
4 I agree that those harsh
5 provisions of law should be imposed upon those
6 who would seek to benefit from taking advantage
7 of youngsters, but that is not necessarily what
8 this bill is getting at. The way that I am
9 suggesting that the bill be amended would get at
10 that, I think would make it more acceptable to
11 the other house of this Legislature without
12 which this could not become law and has not
13 become law, and perhaps even an eventual
14 signature by the Governor.
15 So I would urge everyone in this
16 house to vote for the amendment, and I would
17 hope that it would pass and that we can send the
18 bill across to the Assembly that makes much more
19 sense than the one that is being presented to
20 us.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: On
22 Senator Halperin's amendment. All those in
23 favor, signify by saying aye.
2761
1 (Response of "Aye.")
2 All those opposed, nay.
3 (Response of nay. )
4 The nays have it. The amendment
5 is defeated.
6 On the main bill, read the last
7 section.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
10 Gold.
11 SENATOR GOLD: I don't really
12 want to repeat the debate. We had it last year
13 and Senator Halperin offered his amendment last
14 year, and Senator Connor and Galiber and myself,
15 Halperin, and Leichter, Montgomery, Ohrenstein,
16 Smith, Stavisky, and Waldon, understood the
17 problems in the bill and voted in the negative.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
19 last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
21 act shall take effect on the first day of
22 November next succeeding the date on which it
23 shall have become law.
2762
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
5 the negative on Calendar Number 448 are Senators
6 Connor, Galiber, Gold, Halperin, Leichter,
7 Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Paterson, Santiago,
8 Smith, Stavisky, and Waldon. Ayes 47, nays 12.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
10 is passed.
11 Senator Present.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
13 can we take up Calendar 423 that was laid aside
14 earlier.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Secretary
16 will recount 423.
17 Senator Leichter.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
19 President. Just before the next bill is read,
20 may I have unanimous consent to be recorded in
21 the negative on Calendar 52, which passed
22 earlier today?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
2763
1 objection.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
4 Mendez.
5 SENATOR MENDEZ: May I please be
6 recorded in the negative on Calendar 52.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
8 objection.
9 Senator Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
11 President. The same, without objection, in the
12 negative on Calendar 52. There is such a
13 crescendo building up in this chamber.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
15 objection on the crescendo.
16 Secretary will read.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 423, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4331,
19 Family Court Act, in relation to authorizing
20 fees for probation services in Family Court.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
23 Gold?
2764
1 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator
2 yield to one question?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
4 Saland, will you yield?
5 SENATOR SALAND: Yes.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: He
7 yields.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, the way I
9 understand it, this isn't anything
10 philosophical. This is just a straight issue of
11 trying to raise money for the courts or the
12 state or whatever; right?
13 SENATOR SALAND: What this is
14 doing is basically saying that instead of having
15 to -- this would enable a prospective adoptive
16 parent to have the option of doing what they do
17 currently, which is paying for an outside home
18 study perhaps through a CSW or permitting the
19 county probation department to do that, and the
20 fee would be fixed, depending upon the means of
21 the person, anywhere from $50 to $500.
22 The question that Senator Skelos
23 had asked a bit earlier in which I told him I
2765
1 thought that there were some other areas in
2 which probation had the authority to charge a
3 fee, but didn't want to tell him that
4 unequivocally until I could verify that area,
5 that area is in child custody investigations.
6 Probation has the ability to charge a fee.
7 SENATOR GOLD: So will Senator
8 yield to a question, one more question?
9 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, sir.
10 SENATOR GOLD: So it's not just a
11 strict money-making situation. As I understand
12 it now, something must be done; and if it's done
13 in one situation, the adopting parents would pay
14 for it through that situation. This is allowing
15 them to have it done through a different
16 situation and having a fee set for it. Is that
17 correct?
18 SENATOR SALAND: Correct.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
21 Skelos.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
23 I'm going to vote against this bill, only
2766
1 because I think it is wrong to be charging a
2 family that is doing something quite wonderful
3 which is the private adoption of a young child.
4 We are going to charge them a fee for this
5 service. Yet in instances where non-indigent
6 people who have perhaps violated the law and are
7 going through probation type services are not
8 charged fees. So I think it just sends in my
9 opinion a wrong message; that we should not be
10 charging a fee in the instance of a wonderful
11 social thing of private placement adoption.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Last
13 section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect on the first day of
16 October.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
18 Montgomery.
19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you.
20 Mr. President. I'm happy to join
21 Senator Skelos in opposing this bill because I
22 think, though Senator Saland may have every good
23 intention, this really is, I think, one of those
2767
1 bills this sends a very, very strong negative
2 signal to people in this state, particularly
3 like people in my district who agree to adopt
4 children, especially hard to place children.
5 I have three relatively new
6 adoption agencies that are minority agencies,
7 that the state has taken great pains to set
8 aside funding specifically in order to help
9 those organizations establish themselves and be
10 able to function, because they target a very
11 important sector of my district and that's
12 blacks and/or Hispanic parents, in particular,
13 to adopt children. And I think that this bill
14 will, in fact, penalize them for wanting to do a
15 very good social -- good and positive and
16 socially responsible action.
17 So I think this is a very bad
18 bill, and I hope that my colleagues will vote
19 against it because it is well-intentioned, but I
20 think it is ill in its outcome and in its
21 message to the people in this state.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
23 Jones.
2768
1 SENATOR JONES: Will Senator
2 Saland yield to a question, please?
3 SENATOR SALAND: Yes.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
5 Saland yields.
6 SENATOR JONES: I was confused
7 after I listened to Senator Skelos' remarks.
8 I'm of the opinion that part of the budget that
9 we passed included a large cut for the probation
10 department; and, in turn, they were given the
11 option to charge fees. Is that not correct? Did
12 I miss something?
13 SENATOR SALAND: What occurred in
14 the budget has absolutely no relationship
15 whatsoever to anything that is intended to be
16 done in this bill.
17 SENATOR JONES: Senator Skelos
18 just said that criminals, et cetera, we were not
19 able to charge fees. I was of the opinion we
20 could.
21 SENATOR SALAND: I think Senator
22 Skelos -- and I certainly can't speak for
23 Senator Skelos -- may be referring to bills that
2769
1 have been considered in this house at one time
2 or other in which Senator Skelos and others have
3 sought to enable probationers in criminal cases
4 to be charged fees, and that has not been
5 accepted either in the other house or by the
6 Governor. I am assuming that's what his
7 reference was to.
8 SENATOR JONES: Okay. Would the
9 Senator yield to another question?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
11 yields.
12 SENATOR JONES: To clarify for
13 me. This is a separate issue as far as
14 adoption, and we did not pass anything -
15 SENATOR SALAND: There's
16 absolutely nothing in the budget that dealt with
17 this topic.
18 SENATOR JONES: Not only this
19 topic but fees at all, is that what you're
20 saying?
21 SENATOR SALAND: No. No. If you
22 can recall, when the budget was adopted, the
23 Governor had attempted to zero out last year's
2770
1 $45 million appropriation. We in this house
2 were successful in restoring approximately $28
3 million of those monies, and the local probation
4 departments certainly would like to be held, in
5 effect, harmless if they could by having the
6 balance of those monies restored. That's a
7 separate issue.
8 SENATOR JONES: Okay. Thank you,
9 Senator.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Are there
11 any further questions?
12 SENATOR SALAND: I would just -
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
14 Saland, on the bill.
15 SENATOR SALAND: I just would
16 like to address Senator Montgomery's comments,
17 and I would call her attention to lines 13
18 through 15, and anybody who might have shared
19 her concerns, in which the bill provides that
20 that fee can be waived on the discretion of the
21 court when the adoption would be delayed because
22 the petitioning party lacks sufficient means to
23 pay the fee. And I would assume that would
2771
1 certainly be a consideration in the types of
2 cases that Senator Montgomery was referring to.
3 Thank you.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
5 last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect the first day of October.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
12 the negative on Calendar 423 are Senators
13 Galiber, Kuhl, Montgomery, Onorato, Pataki,
14 Paterson, Santiago, Skelos, Solomon, Stavisky
15 and Waldon. Ayes 48, nays 11.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
17 is passed.
18 Senator Present.
19 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
20 will you call up Calendar 437, Senator Cook's
21 bill, laid aside earlier.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Calendar
23 437. Secretary will read.
2772
1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
3 Gold.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. If I can
5 impose, before you do that, could you recognize
6 Senator Santiago for a moment.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
8 Santiago.
9 SENATOR SANTIAGO: I would like
10 to vote no on 52, please.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Unanimous consent
12 requested for her to be recorded in the negative
13 on Calendar Number 52.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
15 objection.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very
17 much.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Secretary
19 will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 437, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2632,
22 Environmental Conservation Law and the State
23 Finance Law.
2773
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
2 Cook. Senator Gold has requested an
3 explanation.
4 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President.
5 One of the reasons why -
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
7 Gold.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
10 Gold.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. If Senator
12 Cook would yield, I prefer not to have an
13 explanation.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
15 Cook, will you yield?
16 SENATOR COOK: Sure.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
18 Cook yields.
19 SENATOR GOLD: I want everyone to
20 know that I have a document in front of me which
21 mentions the name of this bill, 2632, and it
22 says that the Department of Environmental
23 Conservation strongly opposes the bill. Do you
2774
1 know the reasons why, Senator? I don't.
2 Last section.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
4 last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
6 act shall take effect on the first day of
7 January.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
13 is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 451, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2990,
16 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
19 Cook. Explanation requested.
20 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President.
21 This bill that many of us of discussed on
22 previous occasions is a bill that deals with a
23 very serious problem that we continue to have in
2775
1 this state, and that is the problem of persons
2 who are convicted of serious crimes where they
3 are crimes to the person, assault, murder, rape,
4 where they are subsequently charged with the
5 same crime. They may serve a period of time and
6 be subsequently charged with the same crime, and
7 they are released back on the street, and they
8 go out and they commit other crimes while they
9 are waiting for trial.
10 And we had one instance some
11 years ago where I had a hearing in Buffalo on
12 the subject, where the police department
13 actually indicated that between the time of an
14 original arrest of an individual and the time
15 when the trial was finally held that 32
16 subsequent arrests were made on the same person
17 charged for other crimes of violence.
18 This bill simply says that the
19 judge at the point when in individual is
20 arraigned shall consider the safety of the
21 public, consider the record of this individual
22 either on previous convictions or, if they
23 indeed are awaiting trial on one or more similar
2776
1 charges, that the judge does not grant bail.
2 And there are remedies available in the law for
3 the individual who is charged to try to get that
4 overturned.
5 But the real purpose of the law
6 is to say when we've got dangerous people and we
7 know that they are dangerous people that the
8 public deserves the right to be protected from
9 this type of individual being on the street.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
11 Dollinger.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
13 President, will the sponsor yield to a
14 question?
15 SENATOR COOK: Sure.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
17 Cook yields, Senator Dollinger.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One of the
19 questions that I raised on the deliberation of
20 this item is what impact this bill would have on
21 the populations in the county jails, such as of
22 the Monroe County Correctional Facility, when
23 pre-trial release is prevented in instances when
2777
1 a judge might think it was warranted.
2 My question is about how many
3 prisoners statewide do you think this would
4 affect; and what do you think the additional
5 stay in a correctional facility would be as a
6 consequence of this bill?
7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, of
8 course, we get this question asked all the time,
9 and I'm really kind of wondering why we just
10 don't establish a state prison that's not X
11 number of vacancies; and then when it gets full,
12 we don't convict anybody else of any more
13 crimes. I mean that's the logic you are using,
14 Senator.
15 The point is that's not the
16 direction we come from. We look at what the
17 need is, and we provide whatever space we have
18 to provide. Our responsibility here is to
19 protect the public, and if there has to be a
20 cost to that, so be it. That's the cost.
21 The point is these are dangerous
22 people. They are committing multiple crimes.
23 One instance which I am, unfortunately, all too
2778
1 well acquainted with, a person was actually
2 murdered by someone while that individual was
3 out on bail awaiting trial on a rape charge, and
4 that was an individual who had a previous
5 conviction of violent crime.
6 These are the kinds of people
7 that have to be kept off the street, and what
8 the cost is, I don't know. How many of them
9 there are, I don't know, any more than I know
10 how many people are going to be convicted of
11 crime in a given year. All I know is we make
12 whatever space we have to make available to make
13 it available.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
15 President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
17 Dollinger.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
20 Dollinger, on the bill.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In the Codes
22 Committee discussion about this, I supported
23 this item.
2779
1 My concern with my question to
2 Senator Cook was quite simple. Before we
3 mandate that judges don't have the discretion to
4 exercise their authority in a given instance to
5 put someone out on pre-trial release because, in
6 their judgment, they feel that given all the
7 circumstances that we currently have in the law
8 they meet the standards for pre-trial release.
9 What we're doing is taking away their discretion
10 to do that to some extent. We are limiting
11 their discretion to do that.
12 But to another extent, what we
13 are doing is we're mandating to places like
14 Monroe County that they keep more prisoners in
15 the jails. And the consequence of that, as I
16 understand it -- and I understand the purpose of
17 this legislation. I understand it's a public
18 safety purpose. But from my point of view what
19 we're doing is we're mandating that the
20 counties, once again, keep more and more people
21 in their jails.
22 That's going to have a direct
23 cost to the people that live in my county
2780
1 because it's going to require that they increase
2 their cost of public safety service. My concern
3 is that before we do mandate this, before we
4 again get accused, as Lord knows, I've only been
5 here four months, have already been accused of
6 mandating to local communities what they can and
7 cannot do, that what we are doing here is we are
8 mandating that these prisoners -- no matter what
9 other circumstances may be available, we are
10 mandating that they stay in the facilities and
11 that the taxpayers pick up the cost even though,
12 in certain instances, the judge presiding over
13 the case might determine that they qualify for
14 pre-trial release.
15 I'm simply trying to highlight to
16 the Senator that I understand the purpose. I
17 understand the need to protect the public
18 safety. We do have safeguards under the system
19 currently. But one of the effects, and all of
20 my colleagues should recognize this, that what
21 we're doing is we're telling the local
22 communities again, "We're not going to let your
23 judges let these people out," and that's going
2781
1 to have a direct financial consequence to the
2 community facilities.
3 I don't know how many people this
4 is going to affect. That's why I had hoped that
5 perhaps Senator Volker, when it was raised in
6 the Codes Committee, might have some additional
7 information as to how many people this involves.
8 But we should recognize that this is a mandate.
9 This is telling someone that they can't do
10 something that they might be otherwise inclined
11 to do, and that this is going to have a cost, a
12 real taxpayer cost associated with it.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
14 DeFrancisco.
15 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: On the
16 cost, I believe there's a finite number of cells
17 in each community, and all this bill says is
18 that these prisoners, the most dangerous, have
19 to be detained. And if it means that some other
20 prisoners who are less violent and less a threat
21 to society have to be let out under less
22 stringent grounds, then so be it. That's the
23 financial point.
2782
1 The other thing I wanted to
2 mention about the bill is that it is a good
3 bill, and it's not a unique bill for those who
4 are maybe on the fence on it, in that the
5 federal government already has this type of
6 system in place in the federal criminal justice
7 system, and it works there. There is procedural
8 safeguards. I have participated in it privately
9 in my law practice, and I think it would work in
10 the state as well, not only to promote what
11 Senator Cook mentioned but also to safeguard the
12 rights of the individual.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Last
14 section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 11. This
16 act shall take effect on the 1st day of January.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
18 roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll. )
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
21 Galiber to explain his vote.
22 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes, to explain
23 my vote.
2783
1 Mr. President. No one has
2 mentioned about what this bill really does, and
3 we start talking about preventive detention
4 never mind what it costs us, but we're dealing
5 with the constitution here. We haven't outlived
6 the embarrassment of putting 140,000 Japanese
7 Americans in barbed wire around a fence under
8 the guise of preventative detention.
9 This is a bad piece of
10 legislation. It does violence to our
11 constitution. And whether we do it on a federal
12 level or no, doesn't make it right. What we're
13 doing here are mere suspicions. Someone comes
14 in the second go-round. What happened to due
15 cause, the due process clause that we have in
16 our constitution? Somebody comes in again we
17 suspect that they might maybe do something;
18 therefore, we're going to hold them. So never
19 mind the cost of it.
20 The fact is that this piece of
21 this legislation again goes right back to some
22 basic rights that we have under the constitution
23 which took us some time to get it working. And
2784
1 slowly but surely, we have been grinding away at
2 people's basic constitutional rights and this
3 just is another extension of that.
4 This is a bad piece of
5 legislation. I vote no.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
7 Dollinger to explain his vote.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I share
9 Senator Galiber's concern. The reason why I
10 raised the cost issue is simply because it's one
11 that I think before we take any step to involve
12 constitutional issue, we all ought to know what
13 the fiscal issue will be for the local
14 communities, and I guess I'd just point out that
15 Senator DeFrancisco's point about this only
16 affecting a finite number of people is
17 inconsistent with the purpose announced in this
18 legislation, which Senator Cook says was to
19 strike at the core of one of the most serious
20 threats to public safety today, the failure to
21 recognize public safety as a criteria in
22 deciding pre-trial release matters.
23 Well, if it's such a critical
2785
1 issue as Senator Cook points out, Senator
2 DeFrancisco says it's only a finite number; it's
3 not really such a serious problem. I think
4 there's problems with this from a cost point of
5 view. When I supported it in the Codes
6 Committee, it was my hope we'd have a better
7 definition of exactly who this would affect.
8 So I think there's some technical
9 problems, and I'm going to vote no.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results.
11 Senator DeFrancisco to explain
12 his vote.
13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. I
14 didn't say that it only affects a finite number
15 of people. What I said was that there are
16 finite number of cells in a community. And what
17 this bill will do will make certain that those
18 that are most dangerous are required to be kept
19 in those cells. And if we run out of them, then
20 the people who are of less danger to society
21 will be the ones that will have to be let out on
22 the streets by the judges.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results.
2786
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
3 Leichter to explain his vote.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think you
5 can argue on the issue of how many people this
6 would affect, whether it creates a safer
7 community or not. I think to a marginal extent
8 it probably does, as it would if you went into
9 some neighborhoods and just arrested everybody.
10 I imagine you would be able to show that crime
11 would go down.
12 But there is something so basic
13 that distinguishes America from most other
14 countries in the world, and that is the
15 presumption of innocence, and you don't go to
16 jail if you are presumed innocent. And granted,
17 there are people that you will give that
18 presumption to. You will let them out and, by
19 the way, people are only let out on bail. The
20 judge is certainly there to set reasonable bail,
21 but some will go out and will commit a crime.
22 But I think that we've been led to where we
23 would tinker, not only tinker but do damage
2787
1 to what makes America great and our constitution
2 is great, which is the presumption that we
3 accord people because the one thing that we
4 don't want to do is to send an innocent person
5 to jail or keep somebody who hasn't been found
6 guilty in jail. And that's what's involved
7 here.
8 And I'm really saddened that
9 we've been brought to the point where we would
10 throw away that basic American right. And
11 that's what this bill does, and you can't
12 justify it by saying, well, it's going to create
13 safer communities.
14 You know, Mussolini justified
15 dictator ship, because he made the trains run on
16 time. There is no justification for departing
17 from basic principles of liberty.
18 Mr. President, I vote no.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Does
20 anyone else wish to explain their vote?
21 Senator Gold.
22 SENATOR GOLD: I will be brief,
23 but what I think we're doing is we're saying
2788
1 something that offends all of us, Senator Cook,
2 and I mean all of us. I'm very proud of the
3 fact that there's the word "Liberal" that's
4 associated with my name. It helps some of my
5 colleagues on the other side write it adversely
6 in the newsletters, but I'm very proud of the
7 word. But I'm still upset, Senator Cook, when I
8 read the papers, and I have read some of it this
9 week, of someone who was convicted, convicted,
10 convicted, convicted and they don't go to jail
11 and they keep walking the streets.
12 I'm offended for a number of
13 reasons. One reason is that I'm a member of the
14 Legislature and people in the community think
15 we're not doing anything. And the fact is we
16 are, and there are judges who don't follow the
17 law when it comes to sentencing. But that's not
18 the issue in this bill. If we're mad at the
19 judges who don't put people in jail when they
20 are convicted of crime, why get into a
21 completely different issue, one of preventive
22 detention, which is a terrible, I think,
23 anti-American concept. And I don't mean that
2789
1 anybody who supports this is anti-American.
2 Believe me, Senator Cook, I'm not saying that.
3 But I think, as Senator Leichter says, this just
4 flies in the face of our philosophies.
5 The one thing we should be doing
6 is making sure that these wonderful judges, who
7 are my friends and your friends and all of our
8 friends, obey the law. It's embarrassing to
9 read these things in the paper. I don't think
10 how somebody's out on the street with a car in
11 New York with 46 suspensions, and then runs over
12 a kid and he dies. I mean the judges ought to
13 enforce the law.
14 But that's not the issue of
15 preventive detention, and I think there's a
16 confusion. I vote in the negative.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results.
18 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
19 the negative on -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
21 Waldon.
22 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President.
23 I really want to -
2790
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
2 Waldon. I didn't mean to cut you off.
3 SENATOR WALDON: Yes, if I may.
4 There are two dangers I see with
5 this bill. One is that it usurps the authority
6 of the judge who should have the right to
7 exercise the genius that he or she may have when
8 someone comes before the bar of justice. We
9 would, in effect, with this piece of legislation
10 if it were to become law, replace the freedom
11 that a judge has to do what should be done in
12 the courtroom.
13 The other piece of it, though,
14 which really disturbs and distresses me is that
15 it gives credence to a creeping activity in this
16 nation in certain communities, in certain
17 inner city communities, where it is not the
18 person who has committed the crime who is
19 necessarily being arrested but someone who fits
20 the profile of a person who may have committed a
21 crime.
22 We have too many officers in this
23 country, and having been a police officer, I
2791
1 recognize what I'm saying and I'm not accusing
2 all law enforcement personnel, but there is in
3 this nation now and in New York City on occasion
4 an attitude which allows for young black males
5 and young Latino males to be unnecessarily
6 arrested simply because they fit a profile, the
7 jacket they have on, the type of sneakers they
8 may be wearing, the kind of manner in which they
9 cock the cap that they have upon their head. If
10 they should appear at a moment when some crime
11 or a suspicion of a criminal activity has
12 occurred, all too often they are arrested and
13 falsely arrested on occasion, and I think we
14 don't need to compound that mistake with this
15 mistake.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
17 Padavan to explain his vote.
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: I had not
19 planned to speak to you, but these last few
20 explanations have just prompted me to stand and
21 comment.
22 First, in reading the bill, we
23 seem to overlook the fact that the person who
2792
1 would be subject to this provision is someone
2 who has been indicted for a very serious crime,
3 murder, rape, and so on.
4 Secondly, the person in question
5 must have been convicted of a prior serious
6 felony.
7 Thirdly, the request must be made
8 by the district attorney.
9 There are a number of protective
10 components in this proposal, in this bill that
11 Senator Cook has presented to us, which fly in
12 the face of various comments that have been made
13 in the course of explaining this bill or their
14 vote. We are dealing with very dangerous
15 people, not by presumption but by prior
16 conviction. We're talking about district
17 attorneys who I believe by and large are
18 responsible individuals who, based on their
19 knowledge, feel there is a dangerous person here
20 in front of us, and we must keep this person out
21 of our communities.
22 Yes, Senator Leichter, I'm proud
23 of our constitution, but I'm not proud of the
2793
1 fact that in New York City over 2,000 people
2 were murdered last year, and that every day we
3 pick up the paper and we read about another
4 violent crime committed by someone who is out on
5 bail, out on parole, and it's not just a casual,
6 occasional occurrence. It's regular. It's
7 routine.
8 There is a delicate balance
9 between defending the constitution and defending
10 the people against violent crime. I think this
11 bill meets that criteria of balance. It is not
12 severe. It is well constructed, and it's
13 reasonable. I vote aye.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results.
15 Unless there is anyone else who wishes to
16 explain his or her vote?
17 (There was no response. )
18 Results.
19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
20 the negative on Calendar Number 451, are
21 Senators Dollinger, Galiber, Gold, Leichter,
22 Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Paterson,
23 Santiago, Smith and Waldon.
2794
1 Ayes 48, nays 11.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
3 is passed.
4 Secretary will read.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 452, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
7 3059, an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation
8 to chemical agents and chemical agent weapons.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA:
10 Explanation requested, Senator Johnson.
11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
12 Before this day is out, there will be six people
13 murdered in this state, a dozen women raped, 230
14 people assaulted, another 300 people robbed.
15 Every day more than five hundred people in this
16 state are victims of violent crime.
17 Government is set up, among other
18 purposes, to protect people and their property.
19 And the laws are in place to protect them,
20 courts and policemen and so forth are put in
21 place to protect people against these type of
22 crimes, and yet they happen every day.
23 Unless a person is willing to go
2795
1 through the procedure and is lucky enough to be
2 rewarded, I might say, by having a pistol permit
3 and having a desire to carry it, people are
4 essentially not permitted in this state to carry
5 any means of self-defense, personal
6 self-defense.
7 In 48 other states, they are
8 allowed to do that but not here. In fact, in 48
9 states plus the District of Columbia, you are
10 allowed to defend yourself by carrying mace. In
11 this state, you get arrested if you carry mace.
12 It's a violation of the law.
13 We're trying to change that.
14 We're trying to decriminalize the possession of
15 mace so that a person has a means, a non-lethal
16 means by which to defend themselves.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
19 Gold.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. My
21 notes indicate that there is an opposition from
22 the city of New York, and I do have some
23 literature from Senator Johnson which would
2796
1 indicate that the New York State Federation of
2 Police supports this. Right?
3 SENATOR JOHNSON: Many other
4 organizations, Senator, as well.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Pardon me.
6 SENATOR JOHNSON: There are quite
7 a long list of supporters, including the major
8 police organizations which support this.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Will you yield to
10 one question?
11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
12 SENATOR GOLD: I had in my notes
13 that at one point the Police Conference of the
14 state of New York was in opposition. Have they
15 taken a position this year?
16 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. They have
17 withdrawn their opposition and are now
18 supportive of this legislation.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Last
20 section.
21 Senator Hoffmann.
22 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. President.
23 I rise in support of this bill. I would like to
2797
1 thank Senator Johnson for once again bringing it
2 to our attention, and I also appreciate the hard
3 work that he has done in order to clear up some
4 misconceptions that some members of police
5 organizations had about this bill.
6 He correctly stated the
7 importance of allowing this option to people in
8 this state, particularly to women in this state
9 who would like to be defended -- be able to
10 defend themselves at all times but would prefer
11 not to carry a different type of weapon.
12 Certainly mace is an important,
13 modest deterrent in regard to other types of
14 weapons which are, in fact, legally available
15 right now. There is nothing to prevent a woman
16 who goes out jogging from carrying a butcher
17 knife or a hunting knife with her. And should
18 she want to get a pistol permit and go through
19 the arduous process, she's certainly entitled to
20 do so, and many of us who enjoy jogging in this
21 state or like to be able to feel free to wander
22 comfortably anywhere that we like to wander,
23 choose on occasion to carry some form of
2798
1 protection.
2 This is certainly a legitimate
3 form of self-defense. It is a moderate form of
4 self-defense in relation to fire power, and it
5 certainly is one that women in this state should
6 be allowed to take advantage of when we know
7 that in 48 other states people are allowed to
8 use mace.
9 So I am very happy, once again,
10 to support this bill, and I would urge all of my
11 colleagues on both sides of the aisle to vote in
12 favor of this important measure of equality.
13 Thank you, Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
15 Padavan.
16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
17 I just want to repeat something I did last time
18 -- said the last time we discussed this bill,
19 and that there are men and women in the state of
20 New York legally carrying mace. They are called
21 mailmen or mailwomen. And in talking to them,
22 obviously, they carry it to defend themselves
23 against angry dogs who may attack them as they
2799
1 are going in someone's yard, but also in many
2 communities they are happy to have it in their
3 possession because of the criminal element that
4 they might have to face.
5 So, obviously, if we are allowing
6 it by federal law in the state of New York for
7 that category of our citizens, that same right
8 and prerogative and opportunity ought to be
9 allowed for everyone else.
10 I vote aye.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Last
12 section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
14 act shall take effect on the first day of
15 November.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
17 roll.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
19 President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
21 Leichter.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'd like to
23 explain my vote. Mr. President. I have
2800
1 always -
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
3 Leichter, we'll call the roll and then we'll
4 have you explain your vote.
5 Call the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
8 Leichter to explain his vote.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
10 President. I've debated against this bill in
11 the past, but I want to say I have become
12 convinced that under present circumstances that
13 it probably is a right that we ought to give to
14 people of this state. I think, as Senator
15 Padavan said, many are using it anyhow.
16 Unfortunately, we have reached
17 the state where this sort of protection seems to
18 be not only desired, but I think can be
19 justified. Obviously, it's not as dangerous as
20 a gun and so on.
21 So I want to say, Senator
22 Johnson, it took you three, four years but you
23 convinced me.
2801
1 I'm going to vote in the
2 affirmative, Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results.
4 Senator Volker to explain his
5 vote.
6 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
7 Senator Leichter, I -- I have now
8 got a problem. I can't believe -- that since
9 you switched your vote, I better check to make
10 sure I'm voting the right way.
11 It is a momentous occasion, and I
12 congratulate you on your -- on your -- in any
13 case, since Senator Leichter is voting in the
14 affirmative, I will vote in the affirmative
15 also.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
17 Tully to explain his vote.
18 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
19 President, on the bill and to explain my vote.
20 I, too, feel as Senator Volker
21 does. I was wondering if it was the same bill,
22 but when Franz changes his mind, anything can
23 happen in this Legislature. And it's a good
2802
1 thing. It shows that the spirit of debate
2 works.
3 I see last year it passed by a
4 vote of 52 to 8, and hopefully it will pass this
5 year unanimously because I don't think there is
6 a person in this chamber that doesn't know that
7 in circumstances the way they exist today that
8 just about every woman in this state, if she
9 doesn't carry it now, will be carrying it. In
10 any event, it's not legal for them to do it, and
11 I think it's only right that we legalize
12 something that is necessary.
13 I support the bill and vote in
14 the affirmative.
15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
16 the negative on Calendar 452 are Senators
17 Connor, Mendez, Montgomery, Paterson, Smith and
18 Waldon. Ayes 53, nays 6.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
20 is passed.
21 Secretary.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 455, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 3237,
2803
1 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in
2 relation to pre-sentence investigations.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
4 last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 30. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: We're on
11 a roll call on Calendar Number 455.
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 2.
13 Senators Leichter and Ohrenstein -- ayes 56,
14 nays 3. Senators Leichter, Ohrenstein, and
15 Santiago recorded in the negative.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
17 is passed.
18 Senator Mendez, may I recognize
19 you for a clarification. You wish to be voted
20 in the positive on which vote?
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Calendar 452, I
22 want to be recorded in the positive. I believe
23 we must have mace to defend ourselves.
2804
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
2 is a yes vote on Calendar 452, Senator Johnson's
3 bill. Thank you.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 457, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3323,
6 an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
7 including criminal sale of a controlled
8 substance as a felony.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
10 last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
18 is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 460, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3639,
21 an act to amend the Penal Law.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA:
2805
1 Explanation requested.
2 Senator Stavisky, why do you
3 rise?
4 (There was no audible response. )
5 Thank you, Senator Stavisky.
6 SENATOR VOLKER: This bill is
7 what's known as the "proper cause bill." It was
8 originally sponsored by Senator Schermerhorn for
9 a number of years, and I have carried this bill
10 for several years.
11 What it basically says is -- and
12 I think we have debated this bill -- I don't
13 want to say ad nauseum. At nauseum, okay. What
14 it says is that a -- there's a presumption that
15 a person of clean, moral criminal and mental
16 record, mental character, has proper cause for
17 the issuance of a license. What it basically
18 does is, in a sense, reverse the process and
19 says that unless there is a demonstration that a
20 person has a criminal reported or has a mental
21 problem, or whatever, that they have the right
22 to be approved for a pistol license.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
2806
1 Stavisky.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr.
3 President. This is the week when the nation's
4 attention was riveted on the events in Waco,
5 Texas, and I dare say that some of the people
6 who are members of that cult and blindly
7 followed Mr. Koresh to oblivion, had no known
8 record that would have disqualified them from
9 obtaining access to weapons. As a matter of
10 fact, under the laws of the state of Texas,
11 there are very few disqualifications for
12 obtaining firearms.
13 And so what this bill proposes to
14 do is to presume that anyone walking in should
15 have access to a handgun regardless of the need,
16 and I think that we are now going on dangerous
17 terrain. I voted for the mace bill because that
18 is a limited deterrent and defensive weapon that
19 can be used without fatality. But I have no
20 understanding why this Legislature after
21 we witnessed the aberration of Waco, Texas,
22 should want to put handguns in the possession of
23 individuals who may have no need for these
2807
1 weapons and whose reliability, mental as well as
2 criminal, may not have been checked out in
3 advance of the issuance of the permit.
4 This is extremely dangerous,
5 Senator Volker. You are now no longer giving
6 mace to individuals to defend themselves. You
7 are enabling individuals such as those who
8 unfortunately perished in Waco, Texas, to be
9 armed. And what was the reason for the federal
10 government's intervention there? The feeling
11 that the cache of arms in the possession of
12 these individuals could endanger life and
13 safety. And we saw the standoff, over 50 days
14 of impasse.
15 And I'm surely not defending the
16 efforts by the federal government to rush in
17 there without consideration of the consequences,
18 nor am I condemning them. That is not the
19 purpose of this legislative debate. I am simply
20 saying the ready availability of weapons to
21 individuals who might feel that they can take
22 upon themselves that they are the law, that
23 vigilante justice is the law, that should not be
2808
1 the standard of New York State.
2 The memo from the mayor of the
3 city of New York speaks about vigilante
4 justice. It's not coming from someone not in a
5 position of responsibility. And he quotes the
6 vigorous opposition of the police commissioner
7 of the city of New York. Commissioner Kelly is
8 not a kook. Commissioner Kelly is a responsible
9 law enforcement official. The police
10 commissioner of New York City opposes this
11 legislation for a jurisdiction of more than 7
12 million people, and we do not have the right
13 here legislatively, precipitously,
14 presumptuously to say that the police
15 commissioner of the city of New York has no
16 understanding of law enforcement and the
17 protection of the citizens' lives and safety.
18 You have achieved with the
19 enactment -- hopefully, with the enactment of
20 the mace bill a measure of defense and
21 protection, but we do not have to arm people in
22 urban areas -- and I'm not talking about a rural
23 area. If you want to have a bill that applies
2809
1 to the rural sections of New York State and you
2 can prevail upon enough members of both houses
3 to support it, that's a different matter. But
4 do not mandate upon a city of 7 million against
5 the strenuous objections of a mayor and the
6 police commissioner that this arming of
7 civilians without any real cause, not simply
8 with rifles and shotguns for hunting purposes
9 but with handguns, is in the public interest.
10 Pistols are not normally used by
11 the hunters in the field, and pistols are not
12 necessarily the most reliable means of
13 self-defense nor civilians who may not be
14 trained, for civilians who may leave the pistols
15 for other members of the family to use during a
16 family argument, for civilians who may allow the
17 pistols, loaded, to be used by children in an
18 act of play.
19 There is no play when a gun is
20 discharged. There is only in an urban
21 environment in a household when someone is
22 simply careless and will say, "Oh, my God, we
23 didn't expect that to happen." Well, I'm saying
2810
1 it does happen, far too frequently for us to
2 close our eyes to it.
3 I don't think this is a respons
4 ible piece of legislation. I think you should
5 accept the support of this house on the mace
6 bill and allow that to take effect and not push
7 upon us this radical -- and I do mean radical -
8 opening the doors to gun possession by civilians
9 who should not be required to use them.
10 Look, if the police department
11 cannot protect, if the military cannot protect
12 us against violence, then why do we pay taxes?
13 Let us stop paying taxes until police
14 departments and national guards and the military
15 are able to protect our citizens domestically as
16 well as in foreign situations, but don't make of
17 civilians an armed camp squaring off against one
18 another. I hope you would reconsider the
19 sponsorship and the movement to adopt this bill
20 in this house.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
22 Volker.
23 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
2811
1 Oh, I realize that some of the so-called
2 anti-gun people are going to try to take
3 advantage of the Waco, Texas, situation, and
4 because the media has not told the whole truth,
5 as is usually the case. Senator, let me tell
6 you something. The ATF didn't go in there, and
7 the FBI didn't go in there because of handguns.
8 If you think that it was because
9 of so-called legal weapons, bazookas, rifles
10 that will shoot three miles, automatic weapons,
11 are illegal in virtually every state in the
12 Union. Clearly, the military weapons in that
13 place wouldn't be legal under any law in this
14 state and, to my knowledge, they are not even
15 legal in Texas. The illegal weapons that were
16 in that place was the reason. They didn't go in
17 because of handguns. That had nothing to do
18 with it. Nor for any guns, by the way, that the
19 average citizen uses did they go in there.
20 The reason fire trucks couldn't
21 get near the scene wasn't, I can tell you,
22 because of any weapon that are legal any place
23 in this state or in this country.
2812
1 And, Senator, you live in a city
2 that has the toughest gun laws, supposedly,
3 other than Washington, D.C., and you live in a
4 city that is riddled with crime. We understand
5 that. It's also a city, by the way, that
6 promised to raise all sorts of new police
7 officers, and didn't. And we understand you've
8 got fiscal crisis and all sorts of other
9 things.
10 But, Senator, don't try to tell
11 me that because we passed a mace bill -- a bill,
12 by the way, that we have a heck of a time
13 convincing members of the Assembly because a
14 couple people, I guess, are afraid that maybe
15 some people will use it against innocent
16 civilians, as if innocent civilians aren't being
17 killed every day by the very weapons that they
18 are refusing to allow the average citizen to
19 use. Every criminal in New York City, as
20 someone said, has a way of obtaining a gun.
21 They don't need to go through a procedure to get
22 a gun. Unfortunately, they can tend to find a
23 gun some way.
2813
1 And I realize that the media of
2 this country, in many ways, has been trying to
3 say we'd like to blame everybody else but the
4 people responsible for the problems in this
5 country, and it's very easy to blame the NRA and
6 innocent gun owners and all that stuff for the
7 problems of this country. But if we are going
8 to tackle, if we are genuinely going to tackle
9 the crime rate in this country, we've got to
10 deal with it on a more rational basis.
11 You know, we had a debate here
12 earlier on Senator Cook's bill, and I would be
13 the first to admit to you that that's a very
14 tough bill. That bill resulted from a period
15 back in the early '80s when a whole bunch of
16 people that were let out on bail on both the
17 federal and state level killed a whole bunch of
18 people. And what happens is, by the way -- and
19 some of those judges, by the way, some of the
20 things that drove us in this state -- most of
21 them that drove us were New York City judges,
22 New York City judges who left people out in the
23 street with no bail who killed people.
2814
1 Now, they don't do that any
2 more. They rarely will ever do that any more,
3 and the reason is because this Legislature and a
4 lot of people around this town, some people in
5 this chamber on both sides of the aisle, passed
6 some legislation and put so much pressure on
7 those people that they, for the most part, don't
8 do that any more.
9 Senator Cook's bill really
10 doesn't involve that many people today because
11 it rarely ever happens that people who commit
12 serious crimes are let out without very high
13 bail or, in some cases, no bail at all. But it
14 happens occasionally, and that's one of the
15 reasons why Senator Cook's bill, frankly, is
16 still around. That's a model, by the way, of a
17 federal statute. In fact, it's in law right now
18 on a federal level.
19 The only reason I point that out
20 to you -- and I understand the emotion of this
21 issue. This bill, by the way, has been around
22 for some time. In a sense, it stands as a
23 symbol of almost the outrageousness of our
2815
1 positions around here; and that is, that to say
2 that if we can only clean up the innocent people
3 having guns, somehow the criminals would not get
4 guns.
5 Now, Commissioner Kelly, by the
6 way, who I have met a number of times, is a very
7 nice fellow. He is a good policeman. He does
8 as he's told. The mayor has told him guns are
9 bad, so he thinks guns are bad. His people, by
10 the way, have been going to almost outrageous
11 actions to keep guns away from people. They
12 have been going after some of their enemies in
13 the Pistol Permit Bureau by refusing to give
14 them applications and all sorts of things.
15 Frankly, you know, as I have told
16 Commissioner Kelly's people, I think that is
17 really undignified for the police department to
18 to that. Because as many law enforcement people
19 have privately acknowledged, the drive in this
20 country for gun control has done little or
21 nothing to stem the tide of criminal conduct.
22 The real truth is what has been stemming the
23 tide is better law enforcement and in some cases
2816
1 better treatment, and we are beginning slowly is
2 to make a difference.
3 But to my knowledge, Senator,
4 there isn't one iota of evidence any place in
5 this country that gun control has done one
6 single small thing to deal with the criminal
7 element. There just isn't any evidence. And,
8 Senator, I understand your emotions on these
9 issues, and I feel it, too.
10 I feel that we should act
11 responsibly. But, Senator, I just don't think
12 that we should think for any one moment and
13 especially the Waco, Texas, situation that nut,
14 whether he had guns or not -- it was guns that
15 drove him, but not the kind of guns that we're
16 talking about here, I can assure you. The kind
17 of weapons, by the way, that killed those FBI
18 agents coming in were high-powered weapons that
19 are not covered by this legislation because they
20 are not allowed by this legislation or any other
21 legislation in this state, to my knowledge.
22 Automatic weapons are illegal,
23 not just by state law but by federal law. You
2817
1 can only get them in certain very restricted
2 situations -- and in many cases you can't get
3 them at all -- for very restricted licensing for
4 certain very restricted persons. In other
5 words, you and I couldn't get them because they
6 are not legal any place in this country.
7 That's why the media always
8 confuses semi-automatic weapons with automatic
9 weapons. The weapons that have been used, the
10 high-powered weapons used are not the kind of
11 weapons that are used, for instance, to rob
12 banks and some of these terrorists use. Those
13 are not allowed. They are illegal already. The
14 only reason I point that out -- and I should
15 point out that I'm not a gun nut, by any means.
16 I don't have all sorts of guns like many people
17 have, you must realize. To say that we can
18 solve the crime problem in New York City or any
19 city in the state by merely restricting the use
20 of innocent people to use guns, I think just
21 doesn't hold water, and it's never been proven.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
23 Gold.
2818
1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
2 The only reference I want to make to Waco,
3 Senator Volker, and I understand the way it was
4 used by Senator Stavisky, but I wasn't going to
5 bring it up, but you made me think of it
6 because, Senator, if you read the newspaper
7 stories, one of them that I read, that reference
8 to a device called the "hell fire".
9 It's a device which costs about
10 20 or $30 and, if you put it behind the trigger
11 of a semi-automatic weapon, it would allow you
12 to fire that weapon as fast as if the weapon was
13 fully automatic and, as I need to tell you, I
14 mean if the result is the same the name
15 doesn't mean anything; and they pointed out that
16 the interesting thing was they used this by
17 name.
18 I found out about the "hell fire"
19 because in doing the work I do with guns, I buy
20 some of these gun magazines to see what's
21 around, and apparently in America everybody who
22 is a gun type person knows about this, and it
23 goes on the weapon in literally minutes. I
2819
1 bought one and took it over to the State Police
2 so they could see what it looked like, and so
3 when you say that this is legal and that's legal
4 and not legal, the "hell fire" is so American,
5 through magazines, it's touted as being legal
6 because theoretically you have not converted the
7 weapon, but you can fire that weapon as quickly
8 with the "hell fire" as if it was automatic.
9 Senator, when you say New York
10 City has these rigid gun lawns but we have such
11 a terrible crime problem, let me tell you what
12 the problem is, Senator Volker. It's you. It's
13 upstate New York. It's Connecticut -- not
14 Connecticut, it's Vermont, it's Florida.
15 I mean we have a situation where
16 we are trying to regulate guns in the city, but
17 as I showed in some of the buying that I do and
18 have done, you walk across our border and in
19 literally five or ten minutes, you walk out with
20 a Mosberg shotgun, an AK-47. I mean the people
21 in Albany can sell me the AK-47 in ten minutes.
22 It was incredible. I don't know the first thing
23 about the gun, and I walk out with the AK-47 and
2820
1 two clips, et cetera, et cetera.
2 Not only that, Senator Volker,
3 you talk about buying guns in New York and,
4 yeah, you can go on the streets of New York, you
5 can go on the streets around the state and buy
6 handguns illegally for a few hundred dollars
7 but, Senator Volker, forget about that. That's
8 -- that's you and I talkin' at a cocktail
9 party.
10 You know what goes on in this
11 state? This is what goes on. These are
12 photographs I took less than three weeks ago
13 right up here in Albany at the State Police.
14 You don't have to go in the streets of New
15 York. All you have to do is go to Service
16 Merchandise, like I did, for $69 you get a shot
17 gun, you take two saw cuts and you got a weapon
18 that they're using in the 7-11s, et cetera,
19 which is as -- almost as small as a handgun.
20 This one was about 13 inches long, fits under
21 your coat. They've got a whole cadre of altered
22 weapons.
23 So, Senator, you talk about New
2821
1 York City. Don't blame us for everything. You
2 can't buy these weapons in New York City without
3 a license. You can't alter a shotgun or a rifle
4 in New York City. You can't -- you can't get
5 it. You can't get the weapon in order to alter
6 it.
7 Now, you're right, Senator
8 Volker, these guns have been altered illegally,
9 but we're talking about a criminal element any
10 way. But in New York City, you can't buy the
11 weapon in order to alter it. You've got to go
12 to Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and around the
13 state. So stop blaming New York City with its
14 gun laws. We're trying.
15 The problem is that, if you go
16 five minutes out of the city and buy all this
17 weaponry, read the advertisements in our New
18 York City newspapers, dragging people into
19 Nassau County for all the gun bargains.
20 Now, Senator, I was wondering.
21 The big hype that they -- that they have, for
22 example, the shotgun in this photograph, they
23 sell to women and they say, You don't want your
2822
1 wife to have a pistol, you know, for insurance
2 in the house. Give her one of these pistol grip
3 shotguns and she'll blow away whoever is in the
4 house.
5 I say to myself, it's terrific
6 advertising, but is anybody really doing this?
7 And the first thing I found out is, it's really
8 hard to get numbers on whether anybody really is
9 firing and protecting themselves with these
10 guns. There's a guy down in Florida whom I am
11 trying to hire as my accountant because he's
12 come up with such outrageously ridiculous
13 figures on the number of people that are using
14 guns in America, I figure maybe he can do
15 something with my budget, I don't know.
16 But I got a letter here two weeks
17 ago from the police commissioner of the city of
18 New York, and this letter really is interest
19 ing. First of all, how many times have I heard
20 on this floor that it isn't the people with the
21 licenses that commit crimes. They -- you know
22 what I mean, that they are crime-free; it's the
23 other guy.
2823
1 Well, Senator, I will acknowledge
2 that most of the people who commit crimes, the
3 overwhelming number that commit crimes are not
4 your licensees. But Senator, in 1992, 60
5 licensees were arrested to begin with, with
6 unlawful possession of weapons and 59 of them
7 were arrested committing felonies with firearms,
8 so it's not exactly like nobody who -- who gets
9 a license ever commits a crime. In terms of -
10 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
11 SENATOR GOLD: No, I won't
12 yield.
13 In terms of the numbers of
14 crimes -
15 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator.
16 SENATOR GOLD: No, I won't
17 yield.
18 Senator, in terms of the numbers
19 of crimes in New York, I will acknowledge to you
20 that 60 possessions and 59 felonies is not the
21 thing, but on the other hand let's not make the
22 silly argument on the other hand that everybody
23 who gets a gun license is exempt from committing
2824
1 crime. It is not true. It just isn't true.
2 Another figure which I think
3 would be very interesting: New York is a city of
4 millions of people, and there are a lot of guns
5 in New York City, legal guns, and a lot of
6 illegal guns. In calendar year 1992, the total
7 number of incidents where a licensee actually
8 discharged a firearm to protect themselves was
9 49. 49.
10 I mean I -- I have no problem
11 with an individual who wants to carry a gun and
12 they feel safer and, if they are a proper person
13 to have a gun, that's O.K. with me, but let's
14 put it in perspective. We don't have people all
15 over this city of New York grabbing their guns
16 to protect themselves, their houses and
17 everything else. Burglars like empty houses.
18 They don't like houses where they get shot at.
19 The problem, Senator, I think, is
20 a very obvious one, and I spoke about it on an
21 earlier bill today. I know a situation in the
22 city of New York, Senator Volker, where a man
23 was charged with actually shooting somebody, not
2825
1 having a gun, actually shooting someone. The
2 circumstances of that shooting were ridiculous,
3 impossible, and in my opinion the person should
4 not have been convicted, but the person did get
5 convicted. A judge found that the individual
6 not only had a gun but he fired it at a human
7 being, injured the human being. I don't know
8 why the guy went to trial. The sentence was
9 less than three months. Three months, Senator
10 Volker.
11 Now, if you read this law as I -
12 the strictest gun laws in the state, if you have
13 mere possession of a gun, you go to jail for a
14 year puh-puh!. Puh-puh! A year no less,
15 possession shooting somebody.
16 Senator, the problems, we know
17 the problems. They're in the courts. It is not
18 -- we're not going to solve the crime problem
19 and -- God bless you. We're not going to solve
20 the crime problem in New York by just opening
21 up the marketplace to more and more guns. I
22 mean let's at least in this chamber look each
23 other in the eye and try to have a little logic
2826
1 to what we're talking about.
2 Now, lastly, Senator Volker, I
3 want to say this: I think that there are some
4 very, very fine people who want to carry a gun
5 that never had any trouble in their lives and
6 probably should be able to get a gun a lot
7 easier than it is in the state of New York
8 today.
9 But there's another side of the
10 coin, Senator. The people who have the
11 political power in this state, the NRA, and I
12 acknowledge publicly that political power, don't
13 want to talk about anything. I have meetings
14 with them on little issues, little things like
15 having to take a class before you get a gun.
16 You have to take a class before you get a
17 driver's license. You have to take a class
18 before you get a hunting license but, if you
19 want to kill human beings in your house, then
20 you don't need a class. They'll tell me, no,
21 there's a crack in the door.
22 The day after they have a
23 meeting I'll start to get private phone calls
2827
1 and people say, You have a good idea. Well,
2 help me with it. Well, we can't come out and
3 say it. A simple thing like a waiting period
4 for rifles and shotguns. Simple. There are
5 some people out on Long Island who would be
6 alive today with a waiting period. There are
7 some students on a campus in Massachusetts who
8 would be alive today if there was a waiting
9 period.
10 So what I'm saying, Senator, is
11 there's a huge credibility gap. The NRA says to
12 everybody in -- that they have influence over,
13 that they're afraid of every little crack in the
14 door. Well, if you can't have any legitimate
15 negotiations on the one side, why should there
16 be negotiation on the other?
17 So the only thing we're left
18 with, Senator Volker, is why should we make it
19 easier to help people -- honest, legitimate
20 people, get the handguns when that same
21 organization won't help us on the other side
22 bring some meaningful easy legislation in that
23 would save lives?
2828
1 Now, Senator Volker, I admit to
2 you that some place in America, there was an
3 individual who woke up in the morning, planned
4 to do 85 other things, decided to go hunting,
5 didn't have a gun and had to get a license. But
6 that's not what happens all over the place. If
7 people are going to go hunting and they don't
8 have guns, they got a day or two. It's not so
9 terrible to say to somebody, you goin' to go
10 hunting, you'll buy your guns three days before
11 or five days.
12 None of these ideas I've spoken
13 about or other people have spoken about, the
14 Brady bill in Washington, none of these are
15 terrible, but you can't get anybody to talk
16 about them and, Senator, if the only -- if the
17 only thing they want to discuss are bills like
18 yours, there's never going to be a resolution.
19 So, Senator Volker, I said as
20 I've said so many times before, that you come to
21 this floor with a pure heart but, Senator,
22 you're going to have the honor of carrying this
23 bill for more years because the entire subject
2829
1 has to be dealt with and nobody wants to deal
2 with the entire subject.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Read the
4 last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect on the 1st day of
7 November.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
12 Montgomery to explain her vote.
13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank
14 you, Mr. President. To explain my vote.
15 I wanted to, just for the record,
16 correct Senator Volker who says accurately that
17 -- not inaccurately, I believe, excuse me, that
18 this will -- removing guns from the streets will
19 not deal with the crime issue and, while I agree
20 with that, I do not accept that fully, but even
21 if I accept the premise that removing guns will
22 not eliminate the crime problem, it certainly
23 will eliminate the problem that we have of
2830
1 children killing children, innocent bystanders
2 being killed accidentally on the streets who
3 have nothing whatsoever to do with crime,
4 children being killed in school and New York
5 City having to spend millions of dollars for
6 detectors so that students can be -- can go
7 through a metal detector before entering school,
8 and on and on.
9 So while it's not the final
10 solution, I think it is a very important issue
11 for us to resolve, and that is to remove this
12 level of violence from the streets so that
13 innocent people won't have to fear for their
14 lives, and we can deal with the other crime.
15 I'm certainly happy to work with you for many
16 years to come on that. But this, I think, we
17 can do right now.
18 And, Senator Volker, I wish you
19 would consider that as you look to expand the
20 availability of guns in this state and in the
21 City.
22 I'm voting no.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Results.
2831
1 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
2 the negative on Calendar Number 460 are Senators
3 Connor, Gold, Halperin, Jones, Leichter, Marchi,
4 Markowitz, Masiello, Montgomery, Nolan,
5 Ohrenstein, Onorato, Oppenheimer, Paterson,
6 Smith, Solomon, Stavisky and Waldon, also
7 Senator Dollinger. Ayes 40, nays 19.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: The bill
9 is passed.
10 We'll return to reports of
11 standing committees.
12 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Mr.
13 President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
15 Markowitz.
16 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Yes. With
17 the permission of the President, I'd like to
18 vote in the negative on Calendar Number 455.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
20 objection.
21 Reports of standing committee.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese,
23 from the Committee on Crime Victims, Crime and
2832
1 Corrections, reports the following bill directly
2 for third reading:
3 Senate Bill Number 4651, by the
4 Senate Committee on Rules, an act to amend
5 Chapter 79 of the Laws of 1989, amending the
6 Correction Law and other laws.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
8 objection, third reading calendar.
9 Senator Kuhl.
10 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr.
11 President. On page -- excuse me. On page 26 I
12 offer the following amendments to Calendar
13 Number 395, Senate Print 3414, and ask that said
14 bill retain its place on the Third Reading
15 Calendar.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA:
17 Amendments received and adopted. So ordered.
18 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
20 Velella.
21 SENATOR VELELLA: Yesterday I was
22 out of the chamber when Calendar Number 132,
23 Senate Print 1938, was voted on. Had I been
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1 present, I would have voted no, and I'd like the
2 record to so reflect with unanimous consent.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
4 objection, Senator Velella.
5 Senator Present.
6 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
7 can we stand at ease for a moment.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: At ease
9 for a moment.
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Or two. Or two.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Senator
13 Mendez.
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: May I be
15 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number
16 460.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MEGA: Without
18 objection.
19 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Wait a minute,
21 wait a minute.
22 (Whereupon the Senate stood at
23 ease. )
2834
1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
2 Present.
3 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes, Mr.
4 President. I'd like to announce there will be a
5 Majority Conference tomorrow at 11:00 a.m.
6 promptly. There being no further business, I
7 move we adjourn until tomorrow at 11:30.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The
9 Senate will stand adjourned until tomorrow at
10 11:30.
11 (Whereupon at 6:10 p.m., the
12 Senate adjourned. )
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