Regular Session - April 28, 1993
2835
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9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 April 28, 1993
11 1:45 p.m.
12
13
14 REGULAR SESSION
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18 SENATOR NICHOLAS A. SPANO, Acting President
19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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2836
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The
3 Senate will come to order.
4 All please rise for the Pledge of
5 Allegiance.
6 (Whereupon the Senate joined in
7 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. )
8 In the absence of clergy, let us
9 please bow our heads for a moment of silence.
10 (Whereupon there was a moment of
11 silence. )
12 Reading of the Journal.
13 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
14 Tuesday, April 27. The Senate met pursuant to
15 adjournment. Senator Mega in the chair upon
16 designation of the Temporary President. The
17 Journal of Monday, April 26, was read and
18 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
19 Hearing no objection, the Journal
20 stands approved as read.
21 Presentation of petitions.
22 Messages from the Assembly.
23 Messages from the Governor.
2837
1 Secretary will read. Don't want
2 to read it yet? Okay.
3 Reports of standing committees.
4 Reports of select committees.
5 Communications and reports from
6 state officers.
7 Motions and resolutions.
8 Secretary will read.
9 Senator Padavan.
10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President,
11 on page 24, I offer the following amendments to
12 Calendar 429, Senate Print Number 116, and
13 request that said bill retain its place on the
14 Third Reading Calendar.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without
16 objection.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
19 Gold.
20 SENATOR GOLD: How are you, sir?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Fine,
22 sir.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Good. Mr.
2838
1 President. On behalf of Senator Halperin, who
2 is right now engaged in other important matters
3 of state, yes, I move to discharge the following
4 bill from its respective committee and ask that
5 it be recommitted to that committee with
6 instructions to strike the enacting clause:
7 Senate Print 3967.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without
9 objection.
10 Senator Maltese.
11 SENATOR MALTESE: On behalf of
12 Senator Holland, please star Calendar Number
13 441, Senate Print 464.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
15 is starred at the request of the sponsor.
16 Senator Kuhl.
17 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. Calendar
18 Number 395, Mr. President, which is on the
19 starred calendar, I would like to remove the
20 sponsor star.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Remove
22 the sponsor star on Calendar 395, so moved.
23 Any other motions and
2839
1 resolutions?
2 Secretary will read.
3 THE SECRETARY: On page 13 of
4 today's calendar, Senator Daly moves to
5 discharge the Committee on Environmental
6 Conservation from Assembly Bill Number 583 and
7 substitute it for the identical Calendar Number
8 577.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
10 Substitution ordered.
11 Senator Present, we're ready to
12 begin the calendar.
13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
14 let's take up the non-controversial calendar.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
16 Secretary will read.
17 THE SECRETARY: On page 26,
18 Calendar Number 462, by Senator Volker, Senate
19 Bill Number 3907, Criminal Procedure Law and the
20 Penal Law -
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
22 for the day.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it
2840
1 aside for the day.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 465, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 643,
4 Administrative Code of the city.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it
7 aside.
8 THE SECRETARY: 466, by Senator
9 Bruno, Senate Bill Number 3021.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it
12 aside.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senate Bill -
14 Calendar Number 467, by Senator Hannon, Senate
15 Bill Number 3169, Real Property Law, in relation
16 to the sale of mobile homes.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
18 last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2841
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
3 is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 468, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 3170,
6 Real Property Law.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
8 last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
16 is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 469, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 3173,
19 Real Property Law and the Private Housing
20 Finance Law.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
22 last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2842
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
3 roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
7 is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 472, by Senator Goodman, Senate Bill Number
10 2801, Education Law, in relation to providing
11 state aid.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
13 last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
21 is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 473, by Senator Marino.
2843
1 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it
3 aside.
4 (Whereupon, Senator Marino
5 entered the chamber. )
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino's
7 bill.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Will the record
9 note that I'm only doing my job, and it was
10 other people who asked me just in case Senator
11 Marino hears about this.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 474, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill 3970, an
14 act to amend the Education Law.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
16 last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
20 roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
2844
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 477, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 3382,
4 Mental Hygiene Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
6 last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
14 is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 478, by Senator Spano.
17 SENATOR SMITH: Lay it aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it
19 aside for the day.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 479, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 3670,
22 an act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Local
2845
1 fiscal impact note is at the desk.
2 Read the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
10 is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 485, by Senator Larkin.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
15 Gold.
16 SENATOR GOLD: On behalf of
17 Senator Oppenheimer, who has discussed this with
18 Assemblywoman Nolan, can we lay this aside
19 temporarily.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it
21 aside.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 498, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 4595,
2846
1 proposing an amendment to the constitution.
2 SENATOR GOLD: On behalf of
3 everybody but me lay it aside.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it
5 aside.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 558, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 4596.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay it
10 aside.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 570, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate
13 Bill Number 4651, an act to amend Chapter 79 of
14 the Laws of 1989 amending the Correction Law.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
16 Present.
17 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
18 is there a message of n ecessity at the desk?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes,
20 there is.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: I move we
22 accept the message.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the
2847
1 motion. All those in favor, signify by saying
2 aye.
3 ((Response of "Aye.")
4 Those opposed, nay.
5 (There was no response. )
6 The motion is accepted.
7 Read the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
15 is passed.
16 Senator Present, that completes
17 the non-controversial calendar.
18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
19 Would you call up Calendar 485, have the last
20 section read, and take a roll call for a couple
21 members who would like to leave.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Calendar
23 485. The Secretary will read.
2848
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 485, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 4597,
3 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and
4 the Transportation Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
6 last section.
7 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
8 would you recognize Senator Maltese first.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
13 Tully.
14 SENATOR TULLY: Aue, Mr.
15 President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
17 Seward.
18 SENATOR SEWARD: I vote aye.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Withdraw
20 the roll call. Lay the bill aside.
21 Senator Present.
22 SENATOR PRESENT: Now go back to
23 the controversial calendar.
2849
1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
2 Jones.
3 SENATOR JONES: Yes. I would
4 like unanimous consent to be recorded as a no on
5 474, please.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Calendar
7 474, the record will so indicate.
8 Senator Kuhl?
9 (There was no response. )
10 Secretary will read
11 controversial.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you call
13 up 498, please. I'm sorry.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Calendar
15 498. The Secretary will read.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 498, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 4595,
18 proposing an amendment to the constitution.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on. I
20 understand that Senator Connor has an amendment
21 on this bill, and I'm trying to get him to the
22 chamber.
23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
2850
1 will you lay that bill aside temporarily.
2 And I think Senator Kuhl has a
3 privileged resolution.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay
5 aside 498.
6 Senator Kuhl.
7 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr.
8 President. Is there a privileged resolution at
9 the desk sponsored by Senator Sears?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes,
11 there is, Senator.
12 SENATOR KUHL: If there is, I
13 would like to move its adoption and ask the
14 clerk to read the title of the resolution.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
16 Secretary will read the title of the resolution.
17 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
18 Resolution, by Senator Sears, paying tribute to
19 Gail Wolanin Young upon the occasion of her
20 designation for special honor as Town Clerk of
21 the Year by New York State Town Clerks
22 Association, Incorporated.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the
2851
1 resolution. All those in favor, aye.
2 (Response of "Aye.")
3 Those opposed, nay.
4 (There was no response. )
5 The resolution is adopted.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
8 Gold.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Perhaps we
10 could take care of another piece of business,
11 too. Senator Oppenheimer has a resolution; and
12 if I could yield to Senator Oppenheimer, perhaps
13 we could do that.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
15 Present.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you
17 recognize Senator Oppenheimer.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
19 Oppenheimer.
20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you
21 very much. We have -- the title of the
22 resolution, I believe, is "Take Our Daughters To
23 Work" resolution. I would appreciate if you
2852
1 would read 1040.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The
3 resolution is at the desk, Senator Oppenheimer.
4 Secretary will read the title of the resolution.
5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you.
6 Read the title, and then if you would be good
7 enough to read the rest of it.
8 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
9 Resolution, by Senator Oppenheimer, Resolution
10 Number 1040, recognizing and celebrating the
11 first annual "Take Our Daughters To Work Day" in
12 the State of New York.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the
14 resolution. All those -
15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: If you
16 would be good enough to read it.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: You
18 would like it to be read in total?
19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Please.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes,
21 Senator. Secretary will read the entire
22 resolution.
23 THE SECRETARY: Whereas, April
2853
1 28, 1993, marks the occasion of a nationwide
2 endeavor to "Take Our Daughters To Work," a
3 program designed to enhance the self-worth of
4 girls today and acquaint employers with the work
5 force of tomorrow.
6 Girls from all over New York have
7 come to the State Legislature in Albany to
8 participate in "Take Our Daughters To Work" with
9 Senators, Assembly members and legislative
10 staff, an effort designed to help young women
11 envision their role as government policy makers
12 of the future.
13 New research commissioned by the
14 American Association of University Women shows
15 that at the age of 9 most girls are confident,
16 assertive, and feel positive about themselves,
17 but fewer than a third of the girls will
18 maintain a self-assured attitude through high
19 school.
20 The Ms. Foundation for Women has
21 demonstrated the insight and determination to
22 actively respond to this disconcerting data by
23 founding an annual "Take Our Daughters To Work"
2854
1 program as part of their National Girls
2 Initiative.
3 Education and career
4 opportunities for girls have expanded over the
5 years, but girls and women still receive mixed
6 messages about their role in modern society and
7 continue to be subjected to gender bias in the
8 classroom and the workplace.
9 By the year 2000, it is estimated
10 that women will fill two of every three
11 positions available in the workplace, and it is
12 therefore beneficial to both employers and
13 future employees that we begin to prepare young
14 girls for the prominent roles they will assume.
15 Women are drastically under
16 represented in elective government. The
17 Legislature's participation in "Take Our
18 Daughters To Work" will help to expose girls to
19 the full range of opportunities available to
20 them as they consider career choices.
21 In 1992, a record number of women
22 were elected to the United States Congress and
23 the New York State Legislature, providing girls
2855
1 with more women role models in political careers
2 than ever before in our nation's history. The
3 young participants in "Take Our Daughters To
4 Work" represent the next generation of leaders
5 who will take us even further in our efforts to
6 perfect representative democracy in this country
7 by increasing the number of women in government
8 to reflect the 51 percent of the population
9 which is female.
10 Now, therefore be it resolved,
11 that this legislative body pause in its
12 deliberation to recognize and celebrate the
13 first annual "Take Our Daughters To Work Day" to
14 encourage girls to recognize their self-worth
15 and inspire them to live up to the highest
16 standards of personal achievement and public
17 involvement.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
19 Oppenheimer.
20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr.
21 President. I just very briefly want to welcome
22 all the young women, the young ladies that have
23 come to the New York State Legislature to
2856
1 participate in "Take Our Daughters To Work
2 Day".
3 It is a very exciting day for
4 those of us in the Legislature, and I hope it
5 will be for all of you. We had an extraordinary
6 number of young people come and join us today.
7 We actually had almost a mob scene, and it was
8 absolutely delightful to see all these young
9 women interested in government, asking questions
10 about government and participating with us.
11 And we want these young women to
12 know that we look forward to them considering
13 government as one of their many options as they
14 look around at the work world and the work force
15 that they will be a part of in the next decade
16 or fifteen years, and that we hope they will
17 consider government as an option. It is an
18 exciting field and we need women's voices in
19 government just as surely as we need men's
20 voices. And so we are not looking to exclude
21 men merely to add women and to have a population
22 in this chamber that is representative, after
23 all, of what the population of the real world
2857
1 is.
2 We encourage you in your
3 endeavors and look forward to listening to you,
4 hearing what you think, hearing what you feel,
5 so that we can act upon those issues that are
6 important to you and that eventually you will
7 want to join us in this arena.
8 We thank you all for coming.
9 It's been a very exciting day for us.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
11 Mendez.
12 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President.
13 I feel very, very happy with the project today
14 that we are all celebrating through the
15 resolution that has been introduced. I was not
16 blessed with having any children, daughters, but
17 I was blessed in having two staff members of
18 mine that they have two wonderful girls that
19 they have been participating today.
20 I really must acknowledge the
21 graciousness of Senator Libous when I took my
22 two girls today to a committee meeting, Mara
23 Teresos stand up and Risa Clark, stand up. They
2858
1 went to the committee meeting. They asked
2 questions on two bills, all my colleagues there
3 celebrated their enthusiasm in doing some work
4 today in our government.
5 So I am very pleased and most
6 appreciative. Among all these wonderful girls
7 here we might end up, who knows, some day having
8 a woman President. And at least I know of one
9 little girl who told me that she wants to be a
10 Senator which she never thought that she would
11 want to be ever, and one other girl said that,
12 yes, it wouldn't be bad to be President some
13 day.
14 So this is a wonderful activity,
15 and we are all celebrating it, and we thank the
16 girls for participating and taking this whole
17 day with great seriousness.
18 Thank you, Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
20 Dollinger.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
22 President. Thank you.
23 On this day that we take our
2859
1 daughters to work, I'm proud to recognize my
2 daughter who is in the chamber who I brought to
3 work today. She will die of embarrassment when
4 I say it, but she's the young lady up there with
5 the blond hair.
6 (Laughter)
7 I guess there are many of them up
8 there with blond hair. She's the one, Senator
9 Gold, with the extremely red face in the front
10 row.
11 And, Mr. President, I think the
12 message to my daughter and I hope to every one's
13 daughter that's in this chamber today is that I
14 want you all to think of a day in the year 2018,
15 25 years from now, when we'll be celebrating the
16 25th anniversary of the "Take Your Daughter To
17 Work," and it's my hope that all of the young
18 women here today will be able to bring their
19 daughters back to this chamber.
20 Because I want all of you to know
21 that there is a seat down here, there is a seat
22 in government, there is a part of government
23 that the people of your generation will need
2860
1 your insight and your abilities. It's my hope
2 that you will all take a seat down here; that
3 our community and our state will again be a
4 leader in the movement to make women more a part
5 of our political community.
6 And I have only one concluding
7 thought for my daughter. Please, Maureen, don't
8 primary your father for the seat.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
10 Jones.
11 SENATOR JONES: I would just like
12 to say I didn't bring my own daughter today
13 because they are already grown and in the work
14 force, but I'm very proud that I did bring a
15 very dear friend from home, and I'm also lucky
16 enough to have a young lady from Albany.
17 I probably more than anyone here
18 represents a generation that those opportunities
19 were not available for young women, and it's
20 quite unusual at this age in life I did get this
21 opportunity. So I am very thrilled to be here
22 today and take part for this the first time and
23 see so many young people that know today that
2861
1 those doors are open for them, and it's theirs
2 for the asking.
3 So I'm thrilled to be here and
4 I'm very happy to see so many young girls
5 hopefully looking toward a career to be here in
6 the years to come.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
8 Hoffmann.
9 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Like many of
10 the other parents in this chamber, I take a
11 singular pleasure in knowing that on this one
12 day we are sharing our work experience with
13 young people and letting you know what it is
14 that we do on a regular basis. But we want you
15 to understand that it is not always easy, and
16 those of you who have parents who work outside
17 of the home, be they mothers or fathers, this is
18 a good opportunity for you to start assessing
19 how you will manage these two sometimes
20 competing plans in your future.
21 I'm a mother and I'm proud of
22 being a mother, and that's the most meaningful
23 job that I have, but I'm also extremely proud to
2862
1 represent 297,000 people in the 48th Senate
2 District. The message for each one of you is
3 that you can be both of those roles if you
4 decide to be some time in the future, and you
5 should be equally happy doing each of them, and
6 our job is to help make it meaningful and
7 stimulating and supportive as a society for you
8 to be successful in each of those capacities.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the
10 resolution.
11 Senator Marchi.
12 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President, I
13 was sorely tempted to vote against this
14 resolution as it was being read because it
15 proscribed or it rooted itself to prescriptive
16 mandates tied into statistical norms, and I
17 don't think you should do that when you are
18 talking about human beings.
19 But all of the comments that were
20 made after in a by those who got up and
21 testified and spoke to the issue of an open
22 society and the availability to all of our
23 people to realize their potential, I thought
2863
1 this was a highly redemptive factor.
2 So I'm voting for your remarks,
3 Suzi -- Senator. I'm voting for the remarks
4 that placed everything that was contained in the
5 resolution itself in perspective but not
6 necessarily every single i and t that was dotted
7 and crossed in the resolution itself.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the
9 resolution. All those in favor signify by
10 saying aye.
11 (Response of "Aye.")
12 Those opposed, nay.
13 (There was no response. )
14 The resolution is adopted.
15 I might add on behalf of all of
16 the Senators and on behalf of Senator Marino,
17 the Majority Leader, we would like to welcome
18 all of our guests here today, especially all of
19 the young women who took part in the "Take Your
20 Daughter To Work" program.
21 Welcome to the state capitol, and
22 we hope you enjoyed your experience.
23 (Applause. )
2864
1 Senator Tully.
2 SENATOR TULLY: Yes. Mr.
3 President. On page 21, I offer the following
4 amendments to Calendar Number 287, Senate Print
5 Number 724A, and ask that said bill retain its
6 place on the Third Reading Calendar.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without
8 objection.
9 Senator Dollinger.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
11 President. Just as a point of clarification,
12 474 was voted on and approved?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: 474 was
14 passed previously today.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Can I have
16 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
17 on that bill, Mr. President?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without
19 objection.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
22 Present.
23 SENATOR PRESENT: May we take up
2865
1 Calendar 498, please?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
3 Secretary will read Calendar 498.
4 THE SECRETARY: On page 29,
5 Calendar Number 498, by Senator Marino, Senate
6 Bill Number 4595, proposing amendment to the
7 constitution.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
9 Connor.
10 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
11 President. I call up my amendment, waive its
12 reading and ask to explain it.
13 I think the best way to approach
14 this is to first point out what the proposed
15 Constitutional Amendment by the Majority would
16 do and how it would operate and then to show the
17 difference in the way -
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Connor,
19 will you yield for a second?
20 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
22 Skelos.
23 SENATOR SKELOS: I realize that
2866
1 this is Senator Marino's bill and I'm not
2 Senator Marino. He has asked me to perhaps
3 explain what's before the Senate today. If you
4 would like to explain your amendment, that's
5 fine. But I think as to the concurrent
6 resolution, I think it would be more
7 appropriate, on behalf of Senator Marino, if I
8 explain it.
9 SENATOR CONNOR: I will contrast
10 it is what I want to do.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, I haven't
12 explained it yet, so it's difficult -
13 SENATOR CONNOR: How about if I
14 withdraw my amendment and ask for an explanation
15 of the bill, and thin offer my amendment.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: That would be
17 fine. That would be fine. Thank you very much,
18 Senator Connor.
19 Mr. President, this is a
20 concurrent resolution amending Section 1 of
21 Article V of the State Constitution, in relation
22 to filling a vacancy in the office of
23 Comptroller and/or the Attorney General.
2867
1 The three main components of this
2 proposal are that prior to April 1 of the last
3 year of the term, the Governor must within ten
4 days of the vacancy make proclamation of a
5 special election to be held not less than 30
6 days nor more than 40 days from the date of the
7 proclamation. After April 1, the Legislature by
8 concurrent resolution would appoint a person to
9 fill such office for the remainder of the term
10 of that office. That's by concurrent
11 resolutions of the two houses.
12 If a vacancy should occur at any
13 time other than after April 1 of the last year
14 of such unexpired term and a special election
15 would fall within 60 days of the next general
16 election, the election to fill the vacancy for
17 such unexpired term will be held at the time of
18 that general election.
19 Now, two occurrences have
20 occurred in the past six months or so which have
21 documented the need for Senator Marino's
22 concurrent resolution.
23 Number 1, we have the immediate
2868
1 resignation of Ned Regan as Comptroller and,
2 number 2, we had a situation where last November
3 if Bob Abrams had been successful in his
4 election bid for the United States Senate
5 against Senator D'Amato, there would have been a
6 vacancy there also.
7 At the present time, the State
8 Constitution does not allow for direct input by
9 the public in the replacement of a state
10 Comptroller or Attorney General when a vacancy
11 occurs. In place of a vote of the people, the
12 current provisions call for the creation of a
13 legislative superhouse consisting of 211 state
14 legislators to fill such vacancy.
15 In behalf of the Majority and
16 Senator Marino, it's our position that this
17 vacancy would be better filled by a vote of the
18 people of the State of New York.
19 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you. Mr.
20 President.
21 (Whereupon Senator Libous was in
22 the chair. )
23 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
2869
1 Connor.
2 SENATOR CONNOR: I now call up my
3 amendment, waive its reading and ask to explain
4 it.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Okay.
6 Senator Connor on the amendment.
7 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
8 President.
9 I think Senator Skelos fairly
10 described what this amendment would do as far as
11 it goes, but I think it's important to look at
12 the practical way it would operate. And let me
13 say, I got here initially through a special
14 election. I know the special election process,
15 and there have been a variety of suggestions
16 over the years to change it as it applies to
17 members of Congress or legislators.
18 The one overriding policy
19 consideration with respect to those bodies to
20 have a quick election, 30 to 40 days from
21 proclamation, is of course that if you don't
22 fill a legislative representative seat the
23 people of that district lose their input in
2870
1 government. They lose their voice and vote.
2 In the case of the Comptroller or
3 the Attorney General, we are dealing with people
4 who don't have that same representative
5 function. No discrete section of the state
6 loses its voice if the vacancy persists for a
7 couple months or is filled on an interim basis.
8 I applaud the idea of the people
9 choosing their representatives. Indeed, as I
10 was preparing to come to Albany on Sunday night,
11 my wife said to me, "What are your next two
12 weeks like in Albany?" I said, "I think they'll
13 be preoccupied with this Comptroller's race."
14 There are hearings the Democrats are having this
15 week. She said, "Hearings? Since when do
16 candidates go to hearings? When is the
17 election?"
18 Now, I should point out that one
19 of the candidates is a near neighbor and a near
20 lifetime friend of ours, and my wife was
21 certainly well aware of all the people who put
22 their names forward, several of them being
23 personal friends.
2871
1 I thought, "Gee." She said, "You
2 mean the people don't get to vote? Just you
3 folks in the Legislature?" And that quite
4 disturbed her. I understand why.
5 Now, look. For the present go
6 around, the constitution is the constitution.
7 We certainly can't change it on short notice.
8 It takes the vote of the people after two
9 successive Legislatures have spoken.
10 And I don't think the fact that
11 we have this constitution in any way impugns the
12 legitimacy of whomever gets elected. One of the
13 greatest Attorney Generals in my opinion in the
14 state of New York, Louie Lefkowitz, was elected
15 through this process and subsequently won
16 numerous other elections.
17 But this resolution the Majority
18 has brought out does point out there is probably
19 a better way, but I think my amendment shows an
20 even better way, a way that gives voice to all
21 of the people.
22 What's wrong with a special
23 election on 30 to 40 days' notice? Well, how do
2872
1 you select the candidates? Well, the five
2 political parties, Democrat, Republican,
3 Liberal, Conservative, Right to Life Party, all
4 get to put a candidate on the ballot through
5 their party rules; in other words, their party
6 leaders sit down in a room and decide here's the
7 candidate that gets on the ballot.
8 I call to mind the horse trading
9 involved in that within a major party and
10 perhaps for the minor party lines. That's
11 politics. You can't take politics out of the
12 process when you set it up and empower the party
13 bosses and the party leaders to pick the
14 candidates.
15 What are the alternatives? Can
16 there be an independent candidate who petitions
17 to get on the ballot? Well, think about it.
18 You are proclaiming the election on a 40- to
19 60-day basis. The Election Law provisions would
20 give an independent candidate somewhere between
21 eight and ten days to get all the signatures
22 around the state. Remember, a hundred from half
23 of the counties around the state? I think we
2873
1 have lowered it to 10,000, perhaps 15,000 now
2 signatures -- 10,000 signatures. But in a
3 special election it's usually even a greater
4 task.
5 And, frankly, I have been
6 involved in campaigns, many campaigns that had
7 to petition statewide, either for a primary or
8 as independent candidates. It is a mammoth
9 undertaking. It cannot be done in eight to ten
10 days. You can't do it physically. It would
11 never work.
12 So the Majority's proposal says
13 we'll have a special election, and the only
14 candidates on the ballot are the ones the party
15 bosses pick. And while theoretically an
16 independent could run, it's physically
17 impossible to get enough signatures to survive
18 our draconian, archaic Election Law, which was
19 only in minor ways made easier by the so-called
20 "reform legislation" of 1992.
21 So that what you are saying here
22 is we shouldn't let the 211 elected
23 representatives of the people pick. We should
2874
1 let the party bosses put forth anywhere from two
2 to five names, and then have a hurry-up
3 statewide special election.
4 Now, Mr. President, I have seen
5 special elections for virtually every office
6 from Assembly to Congress. They are messy
7 affairs in the sense that they are hurry-up
8 affairs. They are three-week, four-week
9 campaigns. It's difficult to get a message
10 out. It's expensive to get a message out. And
11 if you are talking about a statewide campaign,
12 incredibly expensive.
13 And what's the result of all the
14 efforts? I have seen tens of thousands of
15 dollars, in excess of hundreds of thousands of
16 dollars spent to try and get a political message
17 out in a special election and encourage voters
18 to turn out. And what happens? Oh, you get
19 turnouts of anywhere from 10 to 15 to 20 percent
20 of the voters if you're lucky.
21 I'm not ashamed to say because I
22 won, but I won this seat initially with 2500
23 votes, and that was five times the number of
2875
1 votes my only opponent, the Republican, got.
2 Three thousand people out of the then 278,000 or
3 282,000 people in my district voted in a special
4 election and I campaigned and my opponent
5 campaigned.
6 The fact of the matter is -- and
7 we have all seen special elections. Turnout is
8 low. Who knows they are supposed to come out in
9 the snow in February to vote on a Tuesday or a
10 Thursday? In my own case, it was Valentine's
11 Day. Who knew they were supposed to go vote
12 then? Who cared? Voters have to focus on
13 orderly elections to get a turnout. It has to
14 be an anticipated date. Everybody knows some
15 time in November there is an election. They
16 don't know there could be one in April or
17 January or December or July. This proposal
18 could well result in a special election in mid
19 summer some time. When people are away on
20 vacations, who's focusing on elections.
21 And it's all a hurry-up. It
22 could be as short as 30 days, 30 days, barely
23 enough time for the political bosses to meet in
2876
1 the smoke-filled rooms to pick the candidates.
2 No time for independent voices to come forward.
3 No time for people unbeholding to the political
4 system to get their name on the ballot and make
5 their case to the voters. They'll never make
6 their case to the voters because I can't imagine
7 anybody making the ballot statewide in eight to
8 ten days. It cannot be done under our present
9 Election Law, I assure you.
10 But a good idea to let the voters
11 have a voice. Not just a good idea, a wonderful
12 idea. A true democratic with a small "d" idea.
13 What does my amendment do? My
14 amendment says, Look, vacancies get created.
15 People die, people resign, people get removed
16 from office. You can't predict when that will
17 happen. You cannot predict it. You do have to
18 fill the vacancies without a doubt.
19 Now, what's my amendment say?
20 Let's do it in an orderly way which gives true
21 voice to the public. Let's have primaries for
22 the political parties. Left the rank and file
23 turn out and vote after the case has been made
2877
1 by the parties' aspirants and pick the parties'
2 candidates. And then let's have an election on
3 election day, in November, that Tuesday in
4 November when people are accustomed to voting,
5 when people turn out, when in many places it's a
6 holiday. People have off from work. They have
7 time to vote. The campaign gets in high gear in
8 September and October when people are finished
9 with the frivolities and relaxation of summer
10 and can focus on the issues. That's the better
11 way. That's how you get four or five million
12 New Yorkers out to vote, or more, hopefully, if
13 we do the right thing about voter registration
14 and making it easier for people to participate
15 in the process. You have a statewide special
16 election and you are going to find out that
17 500,000 to a million people may vote. Why the
18 loser last time for Comptroller got over two
19 million votes.
20 So the fact of the matter is my
21 amendment says the following. When there is a
22 vacancy that occurs in a timely fashion to have
23 a primary -- and the courts and the Election Law
2878
1 deal with that. It would be a vacancy that
2 occurred before the end of the regular petition
3 process, a vacancy that occurred as of some time
4 in July. You would have primaries in the
5 parties if you had more than one candidate.
6 Under our statewide system, you have a party
7 convention that could put someone on the ballot
8 for the primary, put more than one person on the
9 ballot -- anyone who got more than 25 percent on
10 any ballot, as we know. That's worked. That's
11 put a lot of people, at least in the Democratic
12 Party. It's produced four-way primaries because
13 of the desire to let the rank and file, the
14 public, vote. Anyone who didn't like the party
15 convention can go out and petition and get on
16 the ballot for the primary. They'd have time to
17 do it. Anyone who didn't like the parties and
18 said, "Phew on your parties; I don't want
19 anything to do with you; I'm an independent
20 voice," would have time to go out during the
21 regular accustomed independent petition
22 process. They would have several weeks to get
23 those signatures from all over the state. The
2879
1 100 ballot signatures from half of the
2 Congressional districts, to get that petition
3 effort coordinated, get in the petitions, do
4 what you have to do with it, make sure the
5 information is complete and file them. There
6 would be time for that for independent
7 candidates, for party candidates to challenge
8 the party leadership, all of these people would
9 have a right to get on the primary or the
10 general election ballot, and the people would
11 decide and as many voters as we can expect to
12 turn out would decide. Not some flukey 12
13 percent turnout in a snowstorm in January, but
14 at least, hopefully, the kind of turnouts we've
15 been seeing, which abysmal though they are in
16 the 60 percent range, are certainly better than
17 12 percent.
18 That's why I am against the
19 principal amendment because it's a step in the
20 wrong direction. It won't encourage voter
21 participation. My amendment will. Now, what do
22 you do in the meantime? Of necessity, the
23 Majority's proposal and my amendment recognizes
2880
1 that vacancies sometimes occur at inconvenient
2 times. We have all seen regrettable unfortunate
3 incidents of candidates dying on election day or
4 the day before or whatever. These things
5 happen. We can't predict this, and we do have
6 to have government go on in an orderly fashion
7 before we can have time to schedule the
8 appropriate elections.
9 The Majority says, Well, let's -
10 you know, in the meantime until we can get this
11 special election going, let's have a resolution
12 from each house agree on a candidate.
13 Now, I understand well the
14 frustrations of being in the Minority. I have
15 dealt with that for fifteen years. And under
16 this presently constituted Legislature with the
17 super legislature that Senator Skelos rightly
18 points out is the body our constitution says is
19 supposed to fill the vacancy -- I agree totally
20 with that -- the Majority in this house is in
21 the Minority, and it's frustrating. Believe me,
22 it's frustrating. But that's the system today.
23 To say, well, what we should do
2881
1 is treat it like it's a bill and it has to have
2 the concurrence -- the person to be elected must
3 have the concurrence of each house separately is
4 not practical when there is divided government.
5 What do you do then? Negotiate over who is
6 going to be Attorney General or Comptroller for
7 months and months and months? Treat it like the
8 budget? Treat it like the budget, who knows
9 what deadlines will be missed if history is any
10 precedent. That's not practical.
11 The one thing that any
12 constitutional scholar or government, political
13 science scholar will say about elections, about
14 filling vacancies, about continuity in
15 government, is that you want a process that has
16 a certainty of result. There is a premium on
17 that. You want a result. You might not like
18 the result. But having a result is far better
19 than having no government, the office unfilled,
20 drift, chaos, destruction of morale in whatever
21 executive branch you're dealing with.
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
2882
1 Nozzolio, why do you rise?
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
3 will the Senator yield?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
5 Connor, will you yield?
6 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly, Mr.
7 President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: He will
9 yield.
10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator
11 Connor, does your amendment impact the election
12 that's taking place, the selection that's taking
13 place now for the Comptroller?
14 SENATOR CONNOR: No, no,
15 absolutely not.
16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: As I
17 understand it, Senator, then your measure has
18 nothing whatsoever to do with the current
19 selection of the Comptroller?
20 SENATOR CONNOR: Correct. Just
21 as the Majority proposal -
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
23 President.
2883
1 SENATOR CONNOR: -- has nothing
2 to do with the current selection.
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
4 President.
5 SENATOR CONNOR: I think what
6 both the Minority and the Majority in this house
7 is seeing is that we're not satisfied in the
8 modern day with the way the existing
9 constitutional formula operates. So the
10 Majority has a proposal to change it. I have
11 what I think is a better proposal to change it
12 that will enfranchise more voters, that won't
13 just buck the real -- the real decision to party
14 bosses. I don't think that's a step in the
15 right direction. That's a step in the wrong
16 direction for all the faults and flaws, for all
17 the imperfections of the present system, at
18 least 211 known democratically, with a small
19 "d", elected representatives will make the
20 choice, will answer for it to the voters.
21 Under the Majority proposal, not
22 so well-known party leaders will, in effect,
23 make the choice. Oh, there will be a special
2884
1 election, and there will probably be two
2 contenders, but each of them will have arrived
3 there through a closed process and any
4 independent voice would be shut out.
5 Under the present system, we hear
6 from everybody. Whether an independent who
7 wanted to run, we could hear from that person.
8 They could state their case. So I'm not
9 defending the present system. I'm just saying
10 it's, in some ways, better than what you are
11 proposing.
12 But my amendment is the best way
13 to go. Let's have a system where these
14 vacancies are filled decisively by a joint
15 session of the Legislature. Why? The compelling
16 argument for that is, when you have divided
17 government between the houses, you get a result
18 that way. You don't get month after month of
19 horse trading, jockeying, and indecision and
20 missed deadlines and vacuum in whatever office
21 you are talking about. You get a decisive
22 result, but it's only for the short-term because
23 that person only fills the office
2885
1 until the next primary and general election
2 cycle. Then the people speak and the people
3 decide.
4 So I say, in sum, to characterize
5 the difference between the amendment and the
6 Majority's proposal is, this amendment lets the
7 people decide, not the party bosses. The
8 Majority would enfranchise the political back
9 room. That's the practical effect of it.
10 Therefore, Mr. President, I urge the amendment.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Voice
12 vote on the amendment.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
15 Gold.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Do you want to
17 speak, sir?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
19 Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Go ahead,
21 Senator Gold.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
23 Gold, you have the floor.
2886
1 SENATOR GOLD: It seems to me
2 that this is something that we have already been
3 through, Senator Connor. Do you remember,
4 Senator Connor, back in I think it was 1957 when
5 the Assembly was controlled by Democrats,
6 Senator Connor, and the Senate was controlled by
7 Democrats, and this issue came up with the
8 Attorney General, and the Republicans offered
9 these and the majority Democrats in both houses
10 voted this down and elected the Democrat Louie
11 Lefkowitz. Do you remember that?
12 Oh, I apologize. I apologize.
13 It wasn't Democrats. It was Republicans. Of
14 course. Now I remember.
15 Senator Skelos, I admire you. I
16 admire Senator Marino. But this is absurd. You
17 know it's absurd. When you had the dice in your
18 hand and you had control of both houses, there
19 weren't these amendments being offered. You
20 didn't give one care about what the people of
21 the state of New York thought. You couldn't
22 have cared less. Your party -
23 I won't yield right now. Your
2887
1 party stood up here. You met in your caucuses
2 and you elected Louie Lefkowitz.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
4 Skelos, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
6 Is it correct that under rule 6, section 9 (c)
7 of the rules of the Senate that no
8 constitutional amendment may be amended when
9 advanced to third reading.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: That is
11 correct, Senator Skelos.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very
13 much.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
15 Gold.
16 SENATOR GOLD: In 1957, when a
17 fellow who I really do think is terrific, Louie
18 Lefkowitz, was elected, there was no screaming.
19 I mean let's put it where it's at. You know,
20 you had both houses, you had the Governor, and
21 you couldn't care what the people said. As a
22 matter of fact, I remember when I first came to
23 the Senate from my 18-month stint in the
2888
1 Assembly, and I started to read all of our
2 powers, and I said, my God, this is a wonderful,
3 we're like the United States Senate; we get to
4 rule on confirmations by the Governor just like
5 the U. S. Senate does with the President; that's
6 exciting. And then we got to the first
7 confirmation, and the thing went -- it was the
8 fastest thing you had ever seen. Nobody paid
9 any attention to anything. And I raised the
10 issue. I said, Gentlemen, ladies, why don't we
11 take this seriously? The constitution gives us
12 this power. But, of course, when I came here,
13 the Republicans controlled the Senate and a
14 fellow by the name of Nelson Rockefeller was the
15 Governor, and you weren't too concerned.
16 Then I guess a year or so went
17 by, and the people decided that it ought to be
18 -- Hugh Carey was the Governor. I remember
19 somebody on that side -- and I won't embarrass
20 the person -- came over, put their arm around my
21 shoulder and said, "Do you something, Manny, do
22 you know that idea you had about us really
23 taking seriously the confirmation process?
2889
1 We're going to do that."
2 And it's fascinating. Didn't
3 bother you who Republican governors sent up.
4 Now, we got Democratic governors, you are going
5 to put a microscope to it, and I think that's
6 right. By the way, I think that's right.
7 But let's call it what it is
8 today. There is a process. I have a statement
9 here from a man I admire, Senator Ralph J.
10 Marino. But I mean, come on, will you? I mean
11 this is a statement -- I assume you want the
12 press to read it. Is there anybody in the press
13 corps that doesn't know that the reason this
14 statement came out is because you can't win in a
15 joint session? Is there anybody here who
16 forgets so quickly that Warren Anmderson, I
17 believe it was, wanted to go to court over the
18 Regents because, when you put the two houses
19 together, all of a sudden the Majority in this
20 house felt that it had lost its dignity because
21 you felt you were going to lose the vote? The
22 one thing you can do is count. I admire that.
23 But that's all we're talking about here.
2890
1 If there is any degrading of the
2 system, what it is, it is the failure of the
3 Republican Party in the Assembly and the Senate
4 to just own up to the fact that you can't win
5 the vote. That's all. You can't do it.
6 There was an agreement to hold
7 these hearings. All of a sudden, I'm reading
8 here now that the Democrats have concluded their
9 hearings. Those were hearings that were agreed
10 upon by all four legislative leaders, and then
11 Assemblyman Rappleyea decided he wanted to pick
12 up his marbles and go home. So then Senator
13 Marino said, well, if Rappleyea isn't going to
14 be there, then it ought to be just the
15 Majority. This is chicken, whatever. This is
16 silly stuff. It really is.
17 We have to select a Comptroller.
18 I didn't tell Regan to leave. I didn't tell him
19 to leave. Obviously, you didn't tell him to
20 leave, but he is leaving. And we have to fill
21 the position, and the way we're going to do it
22 is very simple. It's the way that has been set
23 out by the constitution which your party never
2891
1 sought to amend.
2 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
4 Daly, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR DALY: Senator Gold
6 yield?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
8 Gold, do you yield to Senator Daly?
9 SENATOR GOLD: Be a pleasure, I
10 hope.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: He said
12 it would be a pleasure.
13 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
14 Will the Senator tell me, does he -- does he -
15 I should say is he talking about this particular
16 selection of a Comptroller because this bill
17 does not refer to that particular selection of a
18 Comptroller. It refers to a future selection of
19 a Comptroller.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
21 Gold, do you care to respond to that question?
22 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. If you have
23 remember the question you could put it with the
2892
1 answer. I understand what you are doing,
2 Senator Daly. This is all part of a process to
3 try to convince the public that in some way that
4 will happen, perhaps next week or whatever, is
5 in some way devious, is in some way not
6 considering their opinions, et cetera, et
7 cetera. Senator Marino says in this statement
8 here that until there is a vote of the people
9 expressing their choice, et cetera. Well, is he
10 talking about this one, Senator Daly? I'll ask
11 you. There is no process for us to go to the
12 people. We have laws. And the interesting
13 thing is until a couple days ago, I didn't see
14 Senator Marino or any member of this house
15 clamoring to redo the process for the simple
16 reason that -- yes, Senator, do you want me to
17 yield?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
19 Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: I had introduced
21 with Senator Nozzolio and with a number of my
22 other colleagues this or very equivalent
23 legislation. The -- approximately or within a
2893
1 couple days after Ned Regan's announced
2 resignation, I also sent the legislation to
3 Speaker Weprin, asking him to join us in the
4 process of changing the constitution. Not
5 necessarily did it have to be exactly the way I
6 had drafted the legislation but to join me in
7 changing the constitution, and he did not even
8 extend the courtesy of a reply. Perhaps now
9 with Senator Marino being the lead sponsor on
10 this, he will extend the courtesy of a reply
11 that we do amend the constitution for situations
12 that may arise in the future.
13 Now, we understand that this
14 concurrent resolution will not affect the
15 present selection of the Comptroller. We
16 understand that. I think the press understands
17 it. I think everybody understands it. All it's
18 doing is changing the constitution should this
19 situation occur in the future and allowing the
20 people to make determination whether they want
21 the constitution changed. That's what this
22 does.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator
2894
1 yield to a question?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
3 Skelos, that I believe was a point of
4 information. And now Senator Gold is asking if
5 you will yield to a question?
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Absolutely.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you,
8 Senator. So, Senator, you are saying, and I
9 think rightfully so, since we all know that a
10 constitutional amendment has to pass two
11 separate legislatures, that this particular bill
12 we are on now has no application for this
13 process. Is that correct?
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Well, it
15 doesn't -
16 SENATOR GOLD: For this election
17 for Comptroller now.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: For this
19 election, nor does Senator Connor's amendment.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, for this
21 Comptroller election now.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Nor does Senator
23 Connor's amendment.
2895
1 SENATOR GOLD: Right. Will you
2 yield to another question?
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Sure.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Yes, he
5 will.
6 SENATOR GOLD: And as I
7 understand it from your comments earlier, the
8 process we're involved in now for the election
9 of a Comptroller is a simple process, which you
10 ask us to change for the future, but it's a
11 simple process whereby the two houses of the
12 Legislature, as one body, will select a
13 Comptroller. Is that correct?
14 SENATOR SKELOS: You are defining
15 it as simple.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, but that's
17 the process; correct?
18 SENATOR SKELOS: The process is
19 in the constitution. You are defining it as a
20 simple process.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Will you
22 tell me, is it more complicated than that, sir,
23 under existing law?
2896
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Pardon me?
2 SENATOR GOLD: Is it more
3 complicated than that under existing law?
4 SENATOR SKELOS: It's exactly
5 what you're saying. The two houses get together
6 and elect a -- 211 legislators will make their
7 preference known.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very
9 much. To conclude my remarks, Mr. President.
10 I understand that the proposal in
11 front of us is for future elections, and I don't
12 have to go into the merits of the two choices,
13 because I think Senator Connor in his expertise
14 has explained very clearly why the amendment
15 that he offered is preferable.
16 But I will conclude my remarks in
17 the same vein I started them, Senator Skelos.
18 There isn't a doubt in my mind -- isn't a doubt
19 in my mind that while the ballgame was loaded
20 in your favor, or so you thought, there wasn't
21 the slightest concern on the Republican Party
22 for the wishes of the people or to get input
23 from the people.
2897
1 It is a new awakening. A new
2 awakening. A new math, and you understand the
3 problems you have with that math that all of a
4 sudden want you to change the process, and
5 everybody understands that.
6 I support the amendment.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
8 First of all -
9 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
10 Skelos.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: In terms of
12 1957, I think John Marchi perhaps was the only
13 Senator here in this legislative body and I dare
14 say in the Assembly. 1957, I think at the age
15 of 9 the last thing I was thinking about was who
16 is going to be the Attorney General. I was
17 perhaps thinking about how my Little League
18 baseball team was going to do, that type of
19 thing. But I don't think many of us in this
20 room were deeply involved in the selection of a
21 successor Attorney General.
22 The point is we recognize that
23 there has to be a change in the constitution to
2898
1 give the people the right to vote. Now, in
2 Senator Connor's amendment, one thing I would
3 like to point out and I -- I dare -- I would
4 never compare my expertise in election law to
5 Senator Connor's. But in the amendment, you
6 mention that a person to fill such actual or
7 prospective vacancy for a term which shall begin
8 on the first day of the vacancy. Now, if a
9 person has passed away and the successor
10 Attorney General under your amendment is
11 selected 45 days, let's say, down the road, your
12 amendment -- and if the constitution were
13 amended -- would bind that appointee to whatever
14 actions occurred during that period of time
15 because his term of office would begin on the
16 date of the vacancy.
17 So I don't even know how you can
18 say somebody's term of office can begin before
19 they are even appointed to that office. That's
20 like saying if you come in in a special
21 election, you are going to go back 45 days and
22 your term of office, your pension benefits, your
23 health benefits, are all going to be
2899
1 retroactive. So I think that's a defect in the
2 drafting of the legislation.
3 I also believe that as I
4 mentioned, under the rules of the Senate, this
5 type of amendment cannot be offered, although
6 I'm not going to ask the president to so rule
7 because I think it deserves a real airing
8 today. But I know that when people -- Senator
9 Connor mentioned that the Senate races, people
10 need a voice up here; you should have special
11 elections. And I agree with him. But the
12 Comptroller of the state of New York under
13 current law is the trustee of a $56 billion
14 trust fund, and the retirees of this state, the
15 local municipalities of this state, deserve to
16 have the voice that they want through a
17 democratic process protecting that fund.
18 The same thing with the Attorney
19 General. He is or she is the chief law
20 enforcement officer of the state of New York,
21 and the people have the right to select that
22 person by vote. And I think sometimes we under
23 estimate the intelligence of the public by
2900
1 saying, "Who cares? They won't come out and
2 vote." Well, I think there are an awful lot of
3 retirees in this state that would come out and
4 vote if there is a vacancy in the office of the
5 Comptroller to make sure that their rights are
6 being protected.
7 In terms of signatures and
8 independent candidacies, that certainly can be
9 handled by changing the Election Law. And I
10 know certain questions that were raised will be
11 brought up by Senator Nozzolio in the next piece
12 of legislation that will be before the house.
13 And, you know, Senator Connor, nobody knows
14 better than you that if the people want to get
15 signatures -- look at what Mr. Perot did in this
16 state in such a short period of time. How many
17 signatures did he get, 100,000 signatures? How
18 many did he get, in what period of time?
19 SENATOR CONNOR: I will yield.
20 The number 93,189 filed comes to mind. I don't
21 know why. But the fact is he had a long period
22 of time, though, Senator. He had the five-week
23 period there.
2901
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Can we not
2 provide for independent candidacies? Can't we
3 change the Election Law? Once we give the
4 people the basic right to vote, can't we under
5 the Election Law then make the changes?
6 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, the
7 problem is if the Governor were to call an
8 election on 30 day's notice, those independent
9 petitions would be due about ten days
10 thereafter. So as a practical matter to print
11 them and all, you would have about six days to
12 get them all over the state. I don't think that
13 practically can be done. It takes time to
14 deliver the petitions to people, to organize
15 petition carriers, and to get the petitions back
16 at some central place in this state.
17 So the real problem there is -- I
18 don't care, you would have to lower it to 50
19 signatures. Sure, if you did that, more than
20 one independent candidate would undoubtedly
21 run. But with the present kinds of requirements
22 of distribution between half of the
23 Congressional districts in this state, that you
2902
1 couldn't do in that period of time, Senator.
2 (Whereupon, Senator Spano was in
3 the chair. )
4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
5 Daly.
6 SENATOR DALY: I have been asked
7 to withhold my remarks until the amendment is
8 defeated. I will speak on the main bill.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The
10 question is on the amendment.
11 Senator Present.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
13 Before you call for the vote, I would like to
14 note that this amendment violates rule 6,
15 section 9 (c) of our rules of the house, and
16 we're not objecting to that, and there has been
17 no one objecting. Please call the roll on the
18 amendment.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: On the
20 amendment, all those in favor signify by saying
21 aye.
22 Senator Dollinger, do you wish to
23 be heard?
2903
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: May I speak
2 on the amendment, on Senator Connor's amendment?
3 Can I, Mr. President?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
5 Dollinger.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
7 President. I guess as a student of
8 constitutional law, I'm always a bit troubled
9 when we go about amending the constitution
10 simply because of loss of political power for a
11 particular part of government, and I think we're
12 in a dangerous territory when we change our
13 constitution based on the vagaries of changes in
14 political power and the distribution of
15 political power under a constitutional document.
16 And what I see happening here -
17 and I agree with both my colleagues, Senator
18 Connor and Senator Gold. What we see is a shift
19 in the political power created under the
20 constitution; that because the majority in this
21 house will not be in the majority in a joint
22 session to elect a new Comptroller, there is
23 suddenly a hue and cry that we ought to go back
2904
1 and change the underlying constitutional
2 document.
3 Well, one of the questions I
4 asked in the Judiciary Committee's deliberation
5 on this document was whether there was any dis
6 cussion in the 19609s when a constitutional con
7 vention was held in this state, a constitutional
8 convention that was created pursuant to a prior
9 constitution in which the issue of reshaping
10 this state in its form of government was dis
11 cussed, whether during that constitutional
12 convention there was a discussion and a consid
13 eration given to changing the power that is held
14 by the Legislature by joint session in appoint
15 ing vacancies to fill vacancies in either the
16 Comptroller or the Attorney General's office. I
17 thought it would be very instructive for this
18 body to look at the dispassionate deliberations
19 of that constitutional convention, when they
20 considered changing the whole structure of
21 government, to look at what they dealt with and
22 how they dealt with the problem of vacancies
23 occurring in the Attorney General and in the
2905
1 Comptroller's office. I thought that discussion
2 would be extremely helpful to us in this
3 process.
4 I haven't seen it yet. I had
5 hoped that we would have it available today.
6 I'm going to continue to try to look for it just
7 for enlightenment, but I had hoped that it would
8 provide us with some guidance; that that
9 discussion would tell us what the considerations
10 were, the debate about whether or not the
11 secrecy and the short time frames that are
12 presented in the majority proposal here, whether
13 they would have a real practical impact, as
14 Senator Connor predicts, on the ability of
15 someone to actually run for these offices or
16 whether we would in fact have -- and this is the
17 critical point I just want to touch on briefly.
18 When Senator Connor said it would
19 be just like the budget, it brought back to my
20 mind my message from three weeks ago, which is,
21 quite simply, it will be done in the smoke
22 filled rooms. It will be done in the rooms of a
23 Democratic convention or a Democratic conference
2906
1 or a Republican conference or any of the other
2 major parties. It will all be done by five
3 people sitting there blowing the smoke away.
4 There won't be any people involved in that.
5 They will be given access to the ballot, and
6 we'll have a hurry-up election that I think, as
7 Senator Connor practically predicts, will draw
8 less than ten percent.
9 That's the way to elect anybody,
10 we ought to scrap that whole process. But it
11 seems to me that we are making a significant -
12 in my judgment, a significant mistake when we
13 change our constitution because of shift in
14 political power.
15 Let's look at this issue in
16 broader detail. And if you do look at it in
17 broader detail, you will see that Senator
18 Connor's amendment which provides for an
19 election in November following the primary
20 process gives all the people the opportunity to
21 be heard just as they were heard in the election
22 of everyone in this chamber. They will get real
23 opportunity to have a candidate elected at a
2907
1 time when there will be a significant turnout.
2 I will close with one final
3 thought. Senator Connor said that the cost of a
4 special election -- if there is no other reason,
5 don't do it because of the cost. Our estimate
6 is that the cost of holding a general election
7 statewide is about $20 million. It will be $20
8 million that we would tack on in ten days to get
9 15 percent of the voters to turn out.
10 Let's do it in November. Let's
11 take the amendment. Do it when the people's
12 voice will be heard in abundance, and I think
13 that's the proper way to do it. The amendment
14 is the proper way to give the people a real say
15 in this process. Don't let it be done by
16 secrecy and surprise.
17 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
19 Daly.
20 SENATOR DALY: On the amendment.
21 I would like to speak on the amendment, Mr.
22 President.
23 And in answer to comments made by
2908
1 several of my colleagues on the other side of
2 the aisle, first of all, the last comment, that
3 this is a shift in political power, it seems to
4 me if you check history, the Democratic Party
5 has controlled the Governor's office in this
6 state for the last 20 years. They have also
7 controlled the Assembly for 20 years.
8 I don't see this as an immediate
9 shift, this proposal by Senator Marino and
10 Senator Skelos, to be a -- caused by a shift in
11 political power. That's a ridiculous
12 accusation.
13 Senator Gold said that this
14 proposal is absurd, that having the people vote
15 on such a proposal is absurd. You know, when
16 you look at the situation, literally, what we
17 have in New York State right now is a
18 disenfranchisement of a political party.
19 Literally.
20 Senator Connor says be practical,
21 be practical. Does anyone over there want to
22 tell me right now that there is any chance at
23 all that a Republican will be appointed to the
2909
1 Comptroller's office? So, literally, under the
2 present -
3 I will not yield at this time,
4 Mr. President.
5 Literally, practically, de facto,
6 under the present system. And get this. In a
7 state where the people have chosen to select a
8 Republican Comptroller, perhaps to
9 counterbalance a Democratic Governor, for the
10 last 12 years; that a Republican will not even
11 be considered for this office.
12 And what does this proposal deal
13 with? It does not even deal with this
14 situation. It doesn't deal with what's going
15 on. We know that's done. We know that there is
16 going to be a person selected by the Democratic
17 members of the Senate and the Assembly who will
18 be a Democrat. We know that. We accept it.
19 What's wrong? A new awakening.
20 If this is a new awakening, then we need more.
21 What's wrong with proposing to the people of
22 this state? And that's what this does. We gave
23 the people of the state a choice. We're saying
2910
1 we don't like the existing situation. In our
2 judgment, we feel it should be changed. Now,
3 the people will speak, not the Legislature. If
4 the people don't like this idea, they will turn
5 it down.
6 But we don't like the existing
7 situation. We think the constitution should be
8 changed, and we would be derelict in our duty if
9 we did not make the proposal. Call it a new
10 awakening. Maybe we should have done it twenty
11 years ago. I'm not going to argue that point.
12 I think perhaps we should have. But we're doing
13 it now, and it should be considered now on its
14 merits.
15 You know, you go off so a tangent
16 and try to hide the real purpose of this bill by
17 talking about it in the context of the existing
18 situation. We don't want to talk about it that
19 way because it doesn't fit. We know. We know
20 the Comptroller will be selected by the
21 Democratic majority in the Assembly combined
22 with the Democratic minority in Senate. That's
23 a given. That's gone.
2911
1 What we're saying is we don't
2 think it's right. We see a state where the
3 Comptroller, as I said before, is of one party
4 while the Governor is of the opposition party,
5 and this has existed for three straight
6 elections. Maybe the people are telling us
7 something. Maybe they are telling us we want
8 ballots. We want a member of one party in the
9 executive office and a member of the other party
10 in the Comptroller's office. Come to think of
11 it, that's the way it was probably back now
12 almost 30 years, when Comptroller Levitt was the
13 Comptroller, was a Democrat when Comptroller
14 Levitt was in office, and, of course, we had the
15 Republican Governors.
16 So let's not play games with
17 this. Let's look at it in the language of the
18 proposal. Basically, giving of the people of
19 the state a choice, a choice for a change in the
20 constitution, one that we feel they deserve, one
21 that we feel is needed.
22 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
2912
1 Connor.
2 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes, to close on
3 the amendment. First of all, I would like to
4 thank the Majority Leader and the Deputy
5 Majority Leader because I think the point of
6 this amendment isn't to score points but to have
7 a discussion, and I think it was helpful.
8 As I said initially, I recounted
9 how shocked my wife was that she doesn't have a
10 vote in this process. I agree that the people
11 voting is a better way, and I certainly agree
12 the constitution is the constitution, and we
13 have a present provision that we have to abide
14 by. And I certainly don't -- you know, I don't
15 really care how a political party or its
16 adherents come to see the light or not. History
17 is history.
18 But the fact is that I think my
19 idea is a better idea. I have no pride of
20 authorship, and I would urge the Majority
21 Leader, as we all acknowledge -- and I
22 understand the political drama to bring this out
23 now this week. But the fact is, to do a real
2913
1 constitutional amendment, we're talking about a
2 process that goes over the next three years at
3 least. And I would urge the Majority Leader to
4 take a look at this amendment if it doesn't pass
5 here as a better way.
6 Because I think the special
7 election idea which comes to mind right away,
8 "Oh, a special election is better," has the
9 pitfall of the party leaders really picking the
10 candidates. It would allow a handful of party
11 leaders to sit down and have no contest, to
12 horse trade. They do that in some places over
13 judgeships and what have you. Suddenly you
14 would have -- what good is a special election, I
15 ask you, if the only candidate on the ballot has
16 three or four party cross endorsements? That
17 could happen under this amendment. Then the hue
18 and cry would be a real hue and cry, and it
19 wouldn't just be involved with winners and
20 losers. And that's the possibility that could
21 happen with the majority's proposal as it's
22 written now.
23 Also, the interim selection
2914
1 basis, I understand why institutionally the
2 Senate wants to say, Look, we want to have our
3 own vote. Let the Assembly have their own
4 vote. But, institutionally, on that interim
5 basis if the house were divided under political
6 control, you would get no result, and win or
7 lose, a result in a democracy is very important
8 because, you know, government goes on.
9 I think my proposal of an
10 election at the next cycle for all the reasons I
11 have outlined and, as Senator Dollinger pointed
12 out, the dollar figure. Think about it, $20
13 million -- $20 million. I have seen special
14 elections for Assembly and for Senate that cost
15 the board of elections in the city of New York
16 -- for example, indeed I suspect with 3,000
17 voters in my own election, an Assembly District
18 special election costs about $100,000. That's
19 what it costs to run. You get 700 people to
20 vote. I mean is it really cost effective? Does
21 democracy compel that we hold elections where
22 the cost per voter is a couple thousand dollars
23 when we know that the state in its programs
2915
1 there's a drastic need for money? I mean think
2 about how many mouths you can feed. Think about
3 how many senior centers you can support, how
4 many meals can be provided, et cetera. How the
5 schools cry out for that money. I don't think
6 we can really justify holding a state election
7 costing a thousand dollars a vote or something.
8 That would be absurd.
9 And I remind you that $20 million
10 is not a cost to the state. It's a cost to
11 those localities. You go back and tell your
12 county board of elections they should have to
13 spend an unanticipated two or three thousand
14 dollars in moderate-sized counties. You go back
15 to Long Island and tell your board of elections,
16 Oh, gee, Nassau County, it's going to cost you a
17 couple million dollars to run this special
18 election, or Suffolk County. Tell the city of
19 New York, It's going to cost you $4 million or
20 $5 million; we're having a special election.
21 We're having a big party. This
22 proposal would have the state force the
23 localities to throw a big party, and nobody was
2916
1 going to attend. I just think my proposal is a
2 better way. It doesn't cost money. It lets the
3 people decide. It doesn't let the party bosses
4 have a stranglehold on who gets to be on the
5 ballot, and it's the most democratic.
6 But, again, I have no provide of
7 authorship. I understand today's political
8 drama, but I also hope the Majority is serious,
9 as is the Minority, in going forward, looking to
10 the future to change the constitutional
11 provisions. And I offer this idea as perhaps a
12 better way. If it doesn't pass today, I urge
13 you to think about it because there is plenty of
14 time to address this problem.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Question
16 is on the amendment.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote.
18 SENATOR PRESENT: Party vote in
19 the negative.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
21 Secretary call the party line vote.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 23, nays 34,
2917
1 party vote.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The
3 amendment is defeated.
4 On the resolution. Secretary
5 will call the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I
8 would like to explain my vote.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
10 Skelos to explain his vote.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: I have enjoyed
12 the discussion that occurred today between
13 Senator Connor and myself and other members of
14 the Legislature because it does point to the
15 need of a constitutional amendment.
16 You know, there were certain
17 comments that were made about the cost of
18 holding the special election. Where Senator
19 Dollinger came up with the 20 million, I don't
20 know. We can discuss it afterward, especially
21 since Speaker Weprin indicated that it would
22 cost perhaps $10 million statewide which, even
23 that, we feel is quite a bit inflated.
2918
1 But I also believe it is an
2 elitist statement when you say something to the
3 effect of it's too much cost for people to
4 vote. We have thousands and thousands of
5 individuals who gave up their lives in the
6 Second World War and other wars to make sure
7 that we had the right to vote. And perhaps to
8 some that seems a bit corny, but I truly believe
9 that, and I think what's important today -- and
10 quite honestly, all my friends on the other side
11 of the aisle should be voting for this because
12 so often I hear them on the other side talking
13 about election reform and this reform and that.
14 And here we have a basic right to vote, and they
15 are voting against it.
16 Perhaps they should send a
17 message to Speaker Weprin that he should lay his
18 cards on the table and let us know if he
19 believes that the people in the future should
20 have the right to vote when a vacancy occurs in
21 the position of Attorney General or Comptroller
22 of this state and start serious discussions with
23 Senator Marino about reforming and changing the
2919
1 state constitution so that the people can vote
2 in the state of New York.
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President,
4 I rise to explain my vote.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
6 Stavisky to explain his vote.
7 SENATOR STAVISKY: I wish to make
8 it very clear that in voting against the measure
9 before us, I am not voting against the people's
10 right to participate. If we truly wish to have
11 the right of the people to participate, then by
12 all means let us provide for a fair system of
13 primary election in advance of a special
14 election.
15 There is a lot wrong with special
16 elections when party leaders by themselves
17 decide who should be the party designee. If you
18 really want to have public participation, then
19 give us something that guarantees the right of a
20 primary in each party, the right of independent
21 candidacy and then a special election or a
22 general election as the case might be.
23 Having explained my vote, I am
2920
1 not voting against public participation. I'm
2 voting against this closed door back-room form
3 of party politics in selecting a Comptroller and
4 an Attorney General.
5 I wish to be recorded in the
6 negative.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
8 Stavisky in the negative.
9 Senator Connor to explain his
10 vote.
11 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes, Mr.
12 President. Just to explain my vote. And I
13 don't want to get into the numbers. We can do
14 this any time. But let me give you one
15 example. It takes approximately 100,000
16 election inspectors, half from the Republican
17 Party, half from the Democratic Party, paid by
18 the localities, to run a statewide election.
19 They get somewhere between $65 and $89 for a
20 very long day from 5:30 in the morning until
21 9:30 or 10:00 o'clock at night. At that
22 pittance of a pay -- that pittance of a pay,
23 that works out to about $8 million right there.
2921
1 You haven't talked about printing ballot costs.
2 You haven't talked about putting machine
3 mechanics and so on, all the other things that
4 go into conducting an election.
5 So I suggest to you the figure of
6 $20 million is relatively accurate. And it's
7 not putting a price tag on voting, Senator
8 Skelos. It's merely talking about the most
9 efficient way to spend that $20 million to have
10 an election. All have to agree, the most
11 efficient way would be to spend that $20 million
12 on an election occasion where four or five mil
13 lion people will vote instead of 250- to 300,000
14 voters will vote. We're talking about spending
15 that $20 million in the best way to guarantee
16 the most people possible the right to vote.
17 And I think that what we're
18 talking about here -- it's not a dollars figure.
19 It's what's the best way to enfranchise the most
20 voters with that money. And therefore, I
21 certainly -- and in voting no on this, it's only
22 because I think I really believe there is a
23 better way, and there's a back-door trap in the
2922
1 Majority's proposal; and that is, the party
2 bosses will pick the candidates not the people.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
4 Connor in the negative. Announce the results.
5 THE SECRETARY: Those reported in
6 the negative on Calendar Number 498 are Senators
7 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Galiber, Gold,
8 Leichter, Markowitz, Masiello, Mendez,
9 Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Onorato, Santiago,
10 Smith, Solomon, Stachowski, Stavisky. Ayes 40,
11 nays 17.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The
13 resolution is adopted.
14 Senator Santiago.
15 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Had I been in
16 the chamber yesterday, I would have voted no on
17 Calendar Numbers 452, 456 and 460.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The
19 record will so indicate.
20 Senator Present.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
22 May we take up Calendar 5358, please.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
2923
1 Secretary will read Calendar 558.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 558, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 4596,
4 an act to amend the Public Officers Law and the
5 Election Law.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
7 Nozzolio.
8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: On behalf of
9 Senator Marino, I would like to offer this
10 legislation and explain it for our
11 colleagues.
12 My colleagues, now that the
13 constitutional arguments have been joined,
14 raised, debated and put aside for another day,
15 it's time for us to address the issue at hand,
16 the selection of this Comptroller, this year,
17 this time. The arguments that we heard
18 discussed on the last bill and amendment deal
19 with the constitutional changes to choose the
20 Comptroller upon a vacancy, but we know those
21 constitutional changes can't occur for a number
22 of years.
23 What we are offering is to open
2924
1 up the process today, to open up the process for
2 the current selection of the next Comptroller.
3 Our bill amends the Public Officers Law and the
4 Election Law to include the people of New York
5 in the selection process. Our bill requires the
6 Governor to call for a non-binding referendum of
7 preference within ten days after there is an
8 announced vacancy.
9 Our bills, those offered this
10 afternoon, those offered earlier this week,
11 continue our effort to lift the veil of secrecy
12 that has surrounded this process. The high
13 stakes lobbying that we have seen behind closed
14 doors in choosing the next Comptroller has only
15 served to weaken our people's faith in
16 government. I think this debate today is a good
17 debate of these issues. However, I think
18 putting a price tag on the democratic process is
19 another way to weaken our people's faith in that
20 democratic process.
21 It is time we bring the selection
22 process for this Comptroller not the next
23 Comptroller -- the people have a right to vote
2925
1 on the selection of this Comptroller, as Mrs.
2 Connor would like to see; that I believe, as we
3 believe, that it's time that the people have
4 this right.
5 I was in first grade when Senator
6 Gold referenced the 1957 selection. Senator
7 Skelos and I at that point were not consulted on
8 how that process would reach the people in the
9 best possible way. We know this bill reaches
10 the people. It reaches the people directly. It
11 reaches the people not the party bosses as may
12 be suggested in the selection process tainted by
13 that selection, by that process.
14 This guarantees that the petition
15 process prevails and that those who seek the
16 office of Comptroller would be able to get on
17 the ballot in a non-binding referendum and allow
18 the selection of the Comptroller to take place
19 as that referendum process is governed by our
20 Election Law.
21 That Senator Daly eloquently
22 stated the need for independence in the
23 selection of a Comptroller. The people have
2926
1 demonstrated that need for independence in
2 their, I believe, not by accidental choice of
3 choosing a Comptroller of the other political
4 party as the Governor. That independence was an
5 independence that has become a deep tradition in
6 New York State. The reason that we need an
7 independent Comptroller to be an independent
8 watchdog of what happens both in the Governor's
9 dealings, in the legislators' dealings and in
10 the conduct of the fiscal affairs of local
11 government. We need an independent watchdog.
12 The people of this state have recognized the
13 need for an independent watchdog.
14 Unfortunately, what is happening
15 by this process, a process where the foxes
16 decide who the guardian of the chicken coop will
17 be, we have not a watchdog selected but a lap
18 dog selected, a lap dog that can be a puppet of
19 the Governor, controlled by a majority of the
20 legislators and, in effect, not that independent
21 voice that the people have established in a
22 longstanding tradition of New York.
23 Our bill recognizes this need to
2927
1 have the people of this state have an active
2 voice in the selection of the next Comptroller.
3 The constitutional oddities, for one reason or
4 another, need to be changed. And that debate
5 was crystalized over the last bill, but let's
6 get to brass tacks. Let's get to the selection
7 process today, and let's not hide behind the
8 veil of the constitution.
9 That is a process that, in
10 effect, would have the selection of the
11 Comptroller chosen by the people, the selection
12 of the Comptroller this time chosen by the
13 people.
14 And as such, Mr. President, I
15 advance the bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
17 Gold.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, I will yield
19 to Senator Connor.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
21 Connor.
22 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you,
23 Senator.
2928
1 Mr. President, you know, there is
2 something missing in this newborn Republican
3 drive for reform and I thought, what is it?
4 What is it? The bills apply to Attorney
5 General. They apply to vacancies in the office
6 of Comptroller. And then I thought, aha!
7 Governor and Lieutenant Governor, when there is
8 a vacancy in the office of Lieutenant Governor.
9 And Governor Cuomo a number of years ago
10 proposed a constitutional amendment to deal with
11 that. He proposed that. What does the law say?
12 The Majority Leader acts as Lieutenant Governor
13 in the absence of Governor, he acts as
14 Governor. And should the vacancy occur in the
15 governorship, the Majority Leader of the Senate
16 becomes the Governor without a vote from the
17 people. Without a vote from the people. I
18 think these bills should go back to the drafting
19 boards. I think the majority in this house
20 forgot to include Lieutenant Governor and
21 Governor. I think that they should be included.
22 And I'm ashamed to say in my
23 amendment which was defeated and when I
2929
1 introduce it as a separate bill to amend the
2 constitution, I'm going to include those
3 offices. Governor Cuomo wanted to include
4 them. If you recall after Lieutenant Governor
5 DelBello resigned, Senator Anderson served ably
6 and well as the acting Lieutenant Governor,
7 acted as Governor, on occasions.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Will you yield?
9 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: The amendment
11 that you proposed before, did that include
12 Lieutenant Governor?
13 SENATOR CONNOR: That's why I
14 just confessed.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: You just thought
16 of it?
17 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, I made
18 an error. I hastily prepared the amendment, and
19 I give you -- I bet Senator Marino didn't think
20 of it in his own amendment, in his own
21 constitutional amendment, and I'll bet he wants
22 to go back and amend that, and I won't say there
23 is -- everybody will understand.
2930
1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
2 Nozzolio.
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr.
4 President. Will Senator Connor yield?
5 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly, Mr.
6 President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
8 Connor yields.
9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator
10 Connor, are you trying to tell us something? Do
11 you know some inside information about an
12 imminent resignation of maybe the Governor or
13 Lieutenant Governor?
14 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly not.
15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Is there a
16 scoop that you would like to share with us?
17 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly not,
18 Mr. President. But even our Governor is
19 mortal. Everybody is, on a serious note, and
20 vacancies do occur. I don't dispute that.
21 The point is, as we all pointed
22 out, we are not dealing with current events. We
23 are planning for the future of the state in
2931
1 light of current events and history, the history
2 of Attorney General Lefkowitz' selection, the
3 history of the vacancy in the office of
4 Comptroller, and I allude to the past not so
5 long ago vacancy in the office of Lieutenant
6 Governor. These things happen for a variety of
7 reasons.
8 And what I'm saying, Mr.
9 President, is while we're dealing with it let's
10 deal with it all. Let's let the people decide
11 when there is a vacancy in the office of
12 Lieutenant Governor. Let the people decide who
13 ought to be the new Lieutenant Governor. Let's
14 let the people decide should multiple vacancies
15 in the office of Governor and Lieutenant
16 Governor occur at the same time. Let the people
17 decide who the new Governor is. Why should
18 this body pick a governor? If together with our
19 colleagues, the 150 colleagues in the Assembly,
20 the majority says we shouldn't pick a
21 Comptroller or Attorney General, I submit to you
22 that the 61 Senators here should never be in the
23 position of picking a Governor or a Lieutenant
2932
1 Governor. Let the people decide. And I realize
2 it slipped all of our minds, and I'm sure the
3 majority will seek proposals very soon from them
4 to deal with this anomaly, this inconsistency in
5 their approach.
6 Now to Senator Nozzolio's bill in
7 particular. Senator Nozzolio said that his bill
8 wouldn't involve the party bosses. The fact of
9 the matter is -
10 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
11 Skelos.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
13 Just to clarify. Are you calling for the
14 special election of a Governor as against the
15 Lieutenant Governor ascending to that position?
16 SENATOR CONNOR: No. What I'm
17 saying is in the case of a vacancy of a
18 Lieutenant Governorship or should -- hey, we all
19 work in the same building. People fly in
20 airplanes. What I'm saying is should there be a
21 simultaneous vacancy in the offices of
22 Lieutenant Governor and Governor, I think the
23 people ought to elect a new Governor and
2933
1 Lieutenant Governor rather than have legislative
2 leaders ascend to these powers, and that's no
3 reflection on any -- as I say, certainly Senator
4 Anderson and certainly the Majority Leader or
5 the Speaker, you know, obviously are leaders of
6 our state, but they are not elected by the
7 people to those offices, and I don't think the
8 people of one particular Assembly District or
9 Senate District ought to, in effect, be electing
10 the Governor or Lieutenant Governor.
11 But as to Senator Nozzolio's
12 bill, he said he took the party bosses out.
13 Well, Mr. President, his preference vote -- his
14 bill says that nominations of candidates for the
15 referendum of preference shall be made in
16 accordance with the provisions of the Election
17 Law that applied to special election, and I'm
18 telling you those provisions say that when there
19 is a special election the party rules pick the
20 candidates -- the party rules, the party bosses.
21 Sure, the Republican Party will
22 have a state convention. The Democratic Party
23 will have a state convention. And all those
2934
1 well-known state committee members, household
2 words, will meet and will pick household names,
3 will pick the major party candidates. I suggest
4 that if you look at the rules, and I have looked
5 at them, of some -- of the other three parties,
6 you will find their conventions are much
7 smaller, made up of a handful of executive
8 members, and they will pick candidates, too, or
9 maybe they will trade to give their line to
10 other candidates, but the bosses will decide who
11 is on the ballot under Senator Nozzolio's
12 provision.
13 Again, an independent will have
14 to struggle in a short time period to get
15 sufficient signatures to get on the ballot. And
16 dissonant voices, voices in the Republican Party
17 or the Democratic Party that don't meet the
18 approbation of the party bosses will be frozen
19 out, frozen out of the process.
20 Now, this is the first time I
21 have seen the majority ever come out with a
22 preference for the voters, and I think I should
23 revive a proposal that I sponsored at the
2935
1 suggestion of Governor Cuomo a number of years
2 ago, in a limited initiative proposal that said
3 when the Legislature refuses to act on voting on
4 important pieces of legislation -- not votes it
5 down -- let's say assault weapons or something
6 -- refuses to bring it to the floor to vote it
7 down. Hey, if you don't want it, vote it down.
8 But refuses to let something come to the floor
9 for a debate and a vote, that upon the petition
10 of a large number of New York voters, it will go
11 on the ballot. It will be initiative. The
12 Legislature will have to vote on it. Not pass
13 it.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
15 Nozzolio.
16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr.
17 President. Will Senator Connor yield?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
19 Connor yields.
20 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly, Mr.
21 President.
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you,
23 Senator Connor. Senator Connor, you are very
2936
1 skilled in knowledge of election law, and that I
2 would like to beg on that expertise to ask you
3 this question about the number of signatures
4 required for statewide candidate in the last
5 presidential cycle. That I know you -
6 SENATOR CONNOR: We lowered it,
7 Senator. We lowered it to 10,000 from 20,000.
8 But it still remains -- actually, it's 50 from
9 each Congressional -
10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: So it was
11 20,000 lowered to 10,000 during a contracted
12 time period. Do you recall what that time
13 period was?
14 SENATOR CONNOR: The petitioning
15 period for president was, my recollection, July
16 -- the date in July that Bill Clinton was
17 nominated by the Democratic Convention. I think
18 that was in the 20s, 20-something of July. And
19 the last day to file petitions my recollection
20 is was August 27. So that there was a four-week
21 petition period.
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm informed
23 that the party petition process -
2937
1 SENATOR CONNOR: Oh, I thought
2 you meant independent. I'm talking independent.
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I was talking
4 party petition process.
5 SENATOR CONNOR: Well, party
6 petition process was more truncated, and the
7 numbers of requirements were cut in half.
8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm informed,
9 Senator, that the party petition process was a
10 statewide 18-day period. Is that what you
11 recollect?
12 SENATOR CONNOR: That's correct,
13 Senator. I'd also point out that no one got on
14 the ballot that way. The party conventions put
15 them all on the ballot. No one got on the
16 ballot last year statewide -- Mr. Sharpton was
17 put on by the state convention, Elizabeth
18 Holtzman was put on by the state convention as
19 was former Congresswoman Ferraro and Attorney
20 General Abrams. So nobody had to use it. Thank
21 God, in that truncated period, no one had to use
22 it.
23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, if
2938
1 you will continue to yield. Then the only
2 candidate that had to use the statewide petition
3 process to get on the ballot as a presidential
4 candidate was Ross Perot, is that correct?
5 SENATOR CONNOR: That's not
6 correct. There were other independent
7 presidential candidates. There was a New
8 Alliance Party candidate. My recollection is
9 there were three other independent candidates.
10 But that petitioning period was not truncated.
11 The number of signatures were cut; but if it was
12 truncated, it was by a number of days. They
13 still had at least a four and a half-week to
14 five-week time period to get on the ballot.
15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: But they ended
16 up -- did each of those candidates that you
17 mentioned, each of them got on the ballot?
18 SENATOR CONNOR: Some of the
19 other people we never heard of were challenging
20 each others' petition. And to tell you the
21 truth, Senator, I don't know. I think one was
22 successful in knocking somebody else off.
23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, my
2939
1 point in rising was to -- in reaction to your
2 comments about the party bosses having exclusive
3 control over who was going to be on this
4 non-binding referendum. That out bill has a
5 5,000 signature requirement, so that anyone who
6 does not receive the designations from their
7 respective parties then can circulate petitions
8 and get -- upon 5,000 signatures qualify for the
9 ballot over a 10-day period. Now, I guess what
10 I'm trying to -
11 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, I will
12 concede that that can be done, but you still
13 maintain the requirements of distribution among
14 Congressional candidates which is another and
15 different obstacle, and I -- it can be done, but
16 that makes it more difficult. If you just say a
17 straight 5,000, I say that's a snap.
18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: But 50
19 signatures for half the Congressional districts,
20 how difficult is that in all practicality?
21 SENATOR CONNOR: Well, you can
22 theoretically comply with it from Westchester to
23 Long Island, theoretically, but that's just more
2940
1 difficult because it's harder in some
2 Congressional districts than others.
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Our point,
4 Senator, it's a point you raise, and I think
5 it's a critical one in this process, that we're
6 not trying to make it so onerous that no one
7 else can get on the ballot, and I guess you
8 conceded that point.
9 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, I will
10 concede it's better than the present law as to
11 independents. But let me point out that the
12 party candidates would still be selected without
13 benefit of primary by the party bosses. Should
14 they want to contest that, they would have to
15 run independent, break with their party, form a
16 new independent body or party, and run that
17 way. And secondly, that the party nominations
18 still -- you know, you don't have primary in
19 here. You don't have petitions. You couldn't
20 petition.
21 For example, under the present
22 law when you go to a party convention, state
23 convention, if you get 25 percent of the vote on
2941
1 any ballot you are on the primary ballot. Under
2 this provision, you could go to the party
3 convention, get 49 percent of the vote, the
4 other guy gets 51 percent, the other person is
5 the candidate of the party, and you are out
6 because you don't have any provision for a
7 primary in here, Senator. There is no primary
8 under your bill.
9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr.
10 President. Will Senator continue to yield?
11 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly,
12 Senator.
13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: But, Senator,
14 aren't you begging the question here? We're
15 talking about not a regular election; we're
16 talking about, by its very nature, a special
17 election and an election that doesn't take into
18 consideration the political calendar because
19 it's urgent. It needs to have a vacancy
20 filled. It's not something where we have a
21 normal process. It's an abnormal process. And
22 what we're trying to do is bring people into
23 that process.
2942
1 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, on the
2 bill. I think that in copying the special
3 election time frame and procedure, you still end
4 up with the only candidates the people get to
5 have an effective say, absent a write-in or an
6 independent campaign, are the major party
7 candidates picked by the party bosses.
8 Now, Senator Daly said before,
9 "Oh, there's no Republicans in this process."
10 Nobody ran. Nobody stepped forward and said, "I
11 have better ideas than these other people.
12 Despite my party label, I'm putting them
13 forth." No one did that.
14 Now, I'm not suggesting it would
15 or would not have mattered. That's the
16 democratic system, the contention between ideas,
17 the debate, the conflict between people of
18 different political philosophies. That's what
19 it's all about.
20 Nobody chose to take on that
21 battle even if it looked like a loser. Nobody
22 wanted to make the case for the Republican Party
23 in this raise, and that's unfortunate.
2943
1 And I know how your party feels.
2 You are going to miss Ned Regan, staunch
3 independent Republican Party loyalist that he
4 was. And I understand those frustrations.
5 But the fact of the matter is
6 none of these bills -- I think the partisan
7 overtures are shown by the fact that none of
8 them include Lieutenant Governor or Governor
9 vacancies. Why not?
10 And I have to tell you, a
11 preference vote, can you really imagine under
12 this bill, the candidates? Okay. The party
13 bosses select a Democrat, and the party bosses
14 select a Republican. Maybe there's a couple
15 other people running. Statewide preference
16 vote, 30- to 40-day campaign, got to cost $2
17 million. Got to cost a major candidate $2
18 million to go on the media, if not more, and
19 make their case.
20 They are going to do it in a
21 beauty contest that's not binding? I can't
22 believe any serious candidate would do that, go
23 into a non-binding beauty contest, spend all
2944
1 that money, make their case, win whatever it is
2 they win, and then not get selected by the
3 Legislature. I find that difficult to believe.
4 And I don't want to go back home to Mrs. Connor
5 tonight and say, "Oh, you are going to get to
6 vote; but if I don't like the outcome, I can
7 ignore it."
8 How are you going to tell the
9 voters that? Oh, they can do anything they want
10 anyway. And you think you are going to get a
11 turnout in that election? You think you are
12 going to get a voter turnout in that election?
13 Come on, folks, come out and tell us what's on
14 your mind, but we don't have to follow it.
15 Unfortunately, the voters in this
16 state are all too often, whether you are dealing
17 with assault weapons or civil rights for certain
18 groups or a variety of anti-bias violence, a
19 variety of issues. The voters of this state are
20 inured to faith in the Legislature. All too
21 often, they have spoken in a variety of ways, if
22 you read the polls. They don't even get a vote
23 here. So now they are going to believe that,
2945
1 aha! we are listening.
2 I agree this bill gives them a
3 voice, but it doesn't make anybody listen. It
4 allows the voters a shot in the void, but we
5 don't have to follow it. And then what's it
6 say? We're going to come back and have
7 concurrent resolutions. Oh, the two houses have
8 to agree again. I see. They will have to
9 agree. But you will say, "Come on, the two
10 houses aren't going to ignore the voice of the
11 people."
12 Well, I suggest to you that when
13 the winner got 4 percent of the registered
14 voters in this state and the loser 3-1/2 percent
15 of the registered voters in the state because
16 only 7 or 8 percent turned out in this
17 non-binding preference that cost the state $20
18 million to run, I suggest to you, Mr. President,
19 we will be back to another budget process. The
20 Speaker and the Majority Leader meeting and
21 battling over what's going on. "Gee, is that
22 really a mandate? The guy got 3 percent of the
23 vote, and we're supposed to vote for him?"
2946
1 So I think that this -- I mean I
2 understand the political impetus behind this. I
3 just don't think it's practical. I think we
4 ought to dig in. What is it, effective
5 immediately? Oh, stop the process and we'll have
6 a preference vote. Why don't you just
7 commission a Gallup poll? I mean I don't
8 understand how this is legitimate.
9 And the fact of the matter is,
10 Mr. President, it's not going to happen. I
11 think that what we ought to do in a non-partisan
12 spirit, a bipartisan spirit in this Capitol, is
13 get together and, between Senator Marino's
14 constitutional proposal, the one I have
15 suggested, work out something that deals with
16 the problems, the practicalities, and insures in
17 the future the voters will have a real voice, a
18 determinative voice on vacancies with Attorney
19 General, Comptroller, and on vacancies in
20 Lieutenant Governor or simultaneous Governor and
21 Lieutenant Governor vacancies. I think we ought
22 to address all four statewide offices that way.
23 Thank you, Mr. President.
2947
1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
2 Daly.
3 SENATOR DALY: In listening to
4 Senator Connor, I guess I can best sum up what I
5 understand of his comments that the people
6 should be deprived of the right to vote because
7 they choose not to vote. I don't like that.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
9 Dollinger.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
11 President. I guess I'm amazed at all of this
12 idea of a non-binding preference. Senator Daly
13 just said, "deprived of the right to vote." As
14 I understand this proposal this is a whole new
15 right to vote. This is a right to vote for
16 something that doesn't mean anything.
17 This is the cruelest hoax you can
18 ask the voters of this state to be asked, which
19 is, we want your vote for Mike Nozzolio to be
20 the next Comptroller, but you know what? It
21 doesn't count.
22 I'd suggest to Senator Nozzolio
23 that Senator Connor's point about turnouts in
2948
1 special elections, "Go to the voters and tell
2 them that they've got ten days; they've got a
3 special election; the preferences all going to
4 be lined up by the party bosses, and, oh, by the
5 way, your vote doesn't count," I will put a
6 package of White hot dogs from Rochester, New
7 York, on the fact that you are not going to get
8 15 percent of the people to vote in that
9 referendum, in a non-binding referendum.
10 This bill creates the most
11 expensive poll in the history of New York State,
12 a non-binding poll that's going to cost $20
13 million that will have no effect on the final
14 vote.
15 The last thing I can't believe,
16 Mr. President, is I'm familiar with a nonbinding
17 special referendum. In fact, my recollection is
18 that a country with no history of democracy just
19 embarked on a non-binding referendum. It's
20 called Russia. People who have no experience
21 with democracy, don't have a 200-year tradition
22 of democracy, just had a non-binding referendum.
23 They're trying to go to us -
2949
1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr.
2 President. Will Senator Dollinger yield?
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As soon as I
4 finish this thought, Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
6 refuses to yield at this time.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Here's the
8 Soviet Union marching down the road to
9 democracy, trying to follow us down the path of
10 democracy, to give their voters the right for
11 meaningful votes, and all of a sudden this
12 proposal says, "Oh-oh, we're going to borrow the
13 Soviet model, have a non-binding referendum,
14 where your vote doesn't mean anything but we
15 want you to come out and vote."
16 I can't believe that we would
17 stand the concept of voting on its head by
18 telling, cruelly and deceptively, the voters of
19 this state that, "Guess what? We want you to
20 vote, but it doesn't mean anything." The last
21 thing we need is Russian democracy in New York
22 State.
23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr.
2950
1 President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
3 Nozzolio.
4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Couldn't quite
5 tell. Has Senator Dollinger finished his
6 thought yet?
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I have, Mr.
8 President. I'll be glad to yield.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
10 Dollinger yields.
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
12 President. Thank you, Senator.
13 Senator, are you saying that if
14 there was a referendum statewide on the
15 selection of a new Comptroller and that there
16 became a candidate who was selected in a
17 non-binding referendum that you would ignore the
18 wishes of those who voted in this referendum and
19 vote contrary to their wishes?
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd simply
21 point out, Mr. President, that depending on how
22 the voters voted in my district, if they were a
23 vote apart, the 340 people that voted in the
2951
1 election, I could sit down and say, "Gee, only
2 30 people out of the 300,000 that I represent
3 actually voted. I have the ability to vote as I
4 think the majority of my constituents would."
5 Which, frankly, Mr. President, is the way I
6 think that I'm hopefully casting every ballot in
7 this chamber. Because I don't ask them for a
8 non-binding preference on every issue that we
9 have come up. I haven't asked them for a
10 referendum on this.
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, how
12 can you assume that only 30 people consider this
13 issue of a trustee of $56 billion of pension
14 fund, that how can you assume that those people
15 in your district or across the state are not
16 interested in this issue? Maybe you are not
17 interested in this issue, Senator, but I think
18 that many people across the state are interested
19 in who the trustee of their pension funds is to
20 be.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
22 President. In response to Senator Nozzolio's
23 question, it seems to me -- seems to me that if
2952
1 15 percent of the people vote in that election,
2 any member of this chamber could sit down and
3 say, "What do the other 85 percent of the people
4 in my district want me to do?"
5 That's what we all do in this
6 process. We try to figure out how as
7 representatives of people, the people in our
8 district would like to see us cast ballots. So
9 if 15 percent, which is my guess of how many
10 people would show up in a totally revolutionary
11 new form of balloting in this state called the
12 non-binding referendum, which the bottom line is
13 your vote doesn't really mean anything, I would
14 be in the same situation. I would say, "What of
15 the other 85 percent who didn't vote, how would
16 they want me to vote?"
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Would Senator
18 Dollinger continue to yield?
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I might say
20 -- again, Mr. President, just let me finish the
21 thought. I might say, "Gee, 7 percent of the
22 people in my district voted for a Democrat and
23 6.9 percent voted for a Republican, but that's
2953
1 only 13 percent of the total people I
2 represent. I'm frankly in the same decision
3 making posture that I would be on any other
4 issue in front of this chamber. So I don't
5 think it changes my calculations, Mr.
6 President. I would listen to the people, try to
7 figure out what their will is.
8 But this is no way to do it, in a
9 low-voter-turnout, non-binding referendum that
10 we're importing from some place else.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
12 Present.
13 SENATOR PRESENT: May I interrupt
14 this discussion on this bill, ask that it be
15 laid aside just for a short moment. Call up
16 Calendar 485, read the last section and take a
17 roll call.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Lay this
19 bill aside. Secretary will read Calendar 485.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 485, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 4597,
22 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and
23 the Transportation Law.
2954
1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
2 last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 SENATOR PRESENT: Call Senator
6 Trunzo.
7 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
8 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator Lack.
9 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator
11 Johnson.
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
13 SENATOR PRESENT: And Senator
14 LaValle.
15 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
16 SENATOR GOLD: And Senator
17 Hoffmann.
18 SENATOR PRESENT: And Senator
19 Hoffmann.
20 SENATOR HOFFMANN: No.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: And Senator
22 Libous.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
2955
1 Libous.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: No.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
4 Leichter.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: No.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
7 Solomon.
8 SENATOR SOLOMON: No.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Just
10 slow it down a second and let the Secretary
11 catch up.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky.
13 SENATOR STAVISKY: No.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nolan.
15 SENATOR NOLAN: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Markowitz. Oh.
18 (There was no response. )
19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Withdraw
20 the bill.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Do you have
22 Senator Jones?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: No,
2956
1 she's going to stay. Okay. Back to Calendar
2 558.
3 Excuse me, Senator Present. Can
4 we have some order in the chamber, please.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
6 President.
7 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator
8 Leichter.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
10 Leichter.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: I thought the
12 clerk had called my name, and I voted "No" on
13 Senator Larkin's bill.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Thank
16 you. We have that, Senator Leichter.
17 We have withdrawn 485. We're
18 back on Calendar 558. Senator Dollinger has
19 completed his comments and next on the list is
20 Senator Leichter.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
22 President. I first want to thank Senator
23 Nozzoli -- Nozzolio, I'm sorry -- because he
2957
1 proved a proposition that he stated earlier. He
2 acknowledged Senator Connor's wisdom and skill
3 in this area. And then by your questions and by
4 your answers, you established that proposition,
5 Senator, and I thank you for that.
6 But I want to disassociate myself
7 from one thing that Senator Connor said. He
8 said, you know, the Governor is mortal, and I
9 think, you know, that could lead to the
10 dangerous inference that the doctrine of
11 gubernatorial infallibility no longer applies,
12 and I wouldn't want to annoy any occupant of the
13 second floor even though he is known for his
14 good even temper.
15 But, in all seriousness, this is
16 the sort of debate that we love, and everybody
17 else yawns and laughs. Because it's pretty
18 clear, you know, the games that everybody is
19 playing, and so on. So let me join the fun.
20 But the one thing I get from this
21 which I enjoy is this suddenly new-found
22 populism by my friends of the Majority where,
23 "Let the public know; let the public be heard;
2958
1 let the public be involved." You know, and
2 that's what we on this side of the aisle have
3 been saying when it comes to the legislative
4 budget. I had tears in my eyes when I heard
5 Senator Skelos talk about the people who went
6 off to war who gave their lives to their
7 country, and they came back and now, as Senator
8 Skelos said, "You don't want to let them vote."
9 Well, Senator, how about letting those same
10 veterans, those same people who fought for
11 democratic ideals, know how their money is being
12 spent?
13 So I love the idea of populism.
14 I love the idea of letting the public be
15 involved and known and be heard and so on, and I
16 just hope that new found populism that we see,
17 which was obviously prompted by a sudden
18 political reality, would also carry over to some
19 other areas where I think the public ought to be
20 involved and the public ought to be heard.
21 Having said that, I think that -
22 as I pointed out, I think Senator Connor made
23 eminent good sense. I hope, though, out of this
2959
1 discussion would come changes in the
2 constitution. Because we all agree that this is
3 not a good process for choosing a Comptroller or
4 choosing an Attorney General. We need a process
5 also for choosing a Lieutenant Governor should
6 the Lieutenant Governor leave office before the
7 end of his term, and I think we can put together
8 a fair, sensible system.
9 Having said this, let the fun
10 continue. Thank you.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
12 Solomon.
13 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, thank you,
14 Mr. President. Will Senator Nozzolio yield,
15 please?
16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly.
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Senator,
18 I'm sure you've done a lot of research -- since
19 the last time we had a vacancy was about 35
20 years ago -- on this legislation. Can you tell
21 me what other states in this country have
22 non-binding referendum on any other issues?
23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Senator,
2960
1 I would be glad to tell you that we as a nation
2 have been electing a president of the United
3 States for now about 200-plus years in
4 establishing what we know as the electoral
5 college and the electoral votes; that I
6 certainly will be sure never to elect Senator
7 Dollinger a member of that college because we've
8 had a tradition in this country of the electors
9 being selected not the direct election of the
10 President of the United States.
11 We stopped, Senator, at that
12 review. We believed that if it was good enough
13 to select a President of the United States
14 through this process that it was also good
15 enough to select a Comptroller, as well.
16 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay. Senator,
17 will you yield for another question?
18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly,
19 Senator.
20 SENATOR SOLOMON: But we do elect
21 electors that elect a President of the United
22 States, do we not? Do we elect electors to elect
23 the President of the United States?
2961
1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes.
2 SENATOR SOLOMON: I see. And
3 Senator, that's in the federal constitution,
4 correct?
5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Senator.
6 But my point is -
7 SENATOR SOLOMON: I see.
8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: -- and I'm not
9 trying to be glib.
10 SENATOR SOLOMON: I see.
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes. Yes.
12 The answer is yes. We also, though -- my point,
13 Senator Solomon, was that we are choosing a
14 non-binding referendum process. The electors
15 are not bound by our federal constitution to
16 follow the popular vote chosen in the
17 presidential election.
18 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, just
19 one more question on elector. But before I get
20 back to the electors, let me ask you a
21 question. Is there any other state that has a
22 non-binding referendum on any other usual issue
23 in the United States that you are aware of?
2962
1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I
2 have not done the research to give you an
3 adequate answer to that question.
4 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay. Senator,
5 if you will yield again. Do you know of any
6 other countries that have non-binding elections?
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I stopped with
8 the United States of America, Senator, in my
9 research.
10 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay. All
11 right. Senator, just one other question. Are
12 you aware of whether or not the electors that
13 are elected in the national election in this
14 state sign a document pledging their allegiance
15 to specific candidates to vote for those
16 candidates?
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: No, Senator,
18 I'm not familiar with such a provision.
19 SENATOR SOLOMON: On the bill.
20 Thank you, Senator.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
22 Solomon on the bill.
23 SENATOR SOLOMON: I'm glad there
2963
1 was so much research done on this legislation by
2 the Majority. In fact, Senator, if you had read
3 the newspaper, Russia which recently entered
4 democracy or alleged democracy had non-binding
5 referendums last week. It was on the front page
6 of the New York Times this week and last week.
7 And I dare say that I don't
8 believe there is a jurisdiction within this
9 country that has a non-binding referendum. And
10 if you would go back and look at the way the
11 presidents are elected, they are not elected by
12 non-binding referendum. They have electors who
13 elect the President of the United States. And
14 basically, what happens is, if I'm correct,
15 those electors make a pledge to support that
16 candidate.
17 And what I'm saying here is we
18 have a process, I don't know where you really
19 picked this out of the air, but, yes, nonbinding
20 referenda happened to actually have an existence
21 in some foreign countries. There is no
22 jurisdiction in this country that has -- no
23 locality and no state has that procedure. And I
2964
1 really think you just picked it out of the air.
2 Thank you.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
4 Volker.
5 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
6 I just want to say very quickly I'll tell you
7 one of the places where this idea came from. It
8 came from the Governor of this state. And I'll
9 tell you how. Governor Cuomo had been urging us
10 for years to do a non-binding referendum on the
11 death penalty. It just dawned on me when I was
12 listening to what you said here.
13 You know, we really, as I under
14 stand it, could put a non-binding referendum on
15 the ballot. We don't need a constitutional
16 amendment to do that, and I believe some states
17 have done it, have done it in the past for
18 various reasons.
19 Frankly, I rejected the idea when
20 it was suggested to me by Governor Cuomo and
21 some of his people because my thought at the
22 time was that on an issue, a political issue or
23 an issue such as this where it was pretty clear
2965
1 where the people stood, the issue of having a
2 campaign across the state discussing an issue
3 that was discussed in this Legislature and that
4 has been debated over the years and one which,
5 by the way, I was certain I could win but which
6 he realized that the Governor who is a great
7 debater and who had the ability to command
8 television and radio and media way above
9 anything that I could do or anything of us in
10 this Legislature, because of course what he says
11 is believed by the media far more than any of
12 us. I think there is one difference in this and
13 that is that the issue of a Comptroller and the
14 issue of who should be a Comptroller is a whole
15 different kind of issue.
16 I would be the first to admit to
17 you that I have some question about this sort of
18 thing, but I would say to you this, that the
19 process -- I'm told that the only time -- I'm
20 not completely sure about this. I'm told the
21 only time that this process was ever run to its
22 complete zenith -- that is, in the Lefkowitz
23 case, as I understand, there was eventually some
2966
1 sort of an agreement and so forth. But the only
2 time was Millard Fillmore, who was from Buffalo,
3 and it was a little before anybody's father or
4 grandfather's time in this house.
5 I would think that one of the
6 things that my good friend Ned Regan has done
7 for us is to make us take a look at some of
8 these provisions in the state constitution. And
9 we don't need a constitutional convention and
10 all sorts of other things to deal with these
11 kinds of issues, certainly not an issue that
12 hasn't been an issue for 100 and some years or
13 whatever.
14 But I think that, you know,
15 Senator, I suppose that you can castigate the
16 idea of a non-binding referendum, but as I point
17 out, a lot of other people of suggested it for
18 various reasons. And since this issue has come
19 to the forefront now, the issue of how we would
20 appoint or elect a Comptroller, I think it's
21 certainly something that we should look into and
22 certainly something worthwhile to debate.
23 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President.
2967
1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
2 Connor.
3 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President,
4 just one thing. You know, I would remind
5 Senator Nozzolio that after the electoral
6 college is elected, you know they don't all meet
7 and say, "Well, Bill Clinton won the popular
8 vote; we're all voting for Bill Clinton."
9 That's not what they do.
10 The Republican electors come in
11 and say, "Even though Bill Clinton was the
12 preference of a majority of Americans, we're
13 voting for George Bush," and of course the
14 Democratic electors come in and say, you know,
15 "We're voting for Clinton." They have the cover
16 of saying he is the choice of the American
17 people, and then he gets more votes, and nobody
18 says to the Republican electors, "You did
19 wrong. You weren't supposed to -- the people
20 wanted Bill Clinton." It's not a non-binding
21 preference. It's not an apt analogy.
22 But the apt analogy, Mr.
23 President, is that the electors go in and
2968
1 generally, almost universally, vote for the
2 person that won their state. And I suggest to
3 you if we had this preference, members would
4 come in subsequent to it and vote for the person
5 who won their district. And is that non
6 representative? No. They would say, "That is
7 democracy; the majority of the voters in my
8 district in the preference poll voted for so and
9 so, and that's who I'm voting for."
10 And it doesn't take a political
11 genius to realize in the present Legislature
12 that the most likely result is that the
13 Democratic candidate would win the districts of
14 Democratic members of the Assembly and the
15 Senate and the Republican candidate is most
16 likely to win the preference vote in the
17 districts represented by Republican members of
18 the Assembly and the Senate. And then we would
19 be back here and what's -- we now have to have
20 one of these joint resolutions? We'd be back to
21 gridlock.
22 We would have spent $20 million
23 on a preference, and I venture to say not a half
2969
1 a dozen members would do other than reflect the
2 preference vote in their district, and we end up
3 having spent $20 million on a statewide
4 preference vote and we'd be back here, the
5 Senate voting for the Republican candidate, the
6 Assembly voting for the Democratic candidate,
7 and no Comptroller.
8 To me, that's taking political
9 theatre a little far. Were we to have a system
10 like that, it wouldn't work. It wouldn't elect
11 a Comptroller. It wouldn't guide us on how to
12 elect a Comptroller. It would only guide
13 individual members on how to cast their votes,
14 and it may be that the handful whose district
15 voted for the opposite party person and they may
16 switch, but the net result will be -- would have
17 been if you had this preference that the
18 Republican Senate would vote for the Republican,
19 the Democratic Assembly would vote for the
20 Democrat. And you would have gridlock not an
21 answer. It's just not an answer. It's a press
22 release. It's not an answer.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
2970
1 Gold.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
3 President. Will Senator Nozzolio yield to a
4 question?
5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly, Mr.
6 President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
8 yields.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I
10 listened to your comments -- questions to
11 Senator Dollinger, and it made me wonder just
12 how you envisioned this working in your
13 situation. This is a non-binding vote. Now, if
14 the vote in your Senate district went one way
15 but somebody else had the majority in the state,
16 what would you do? What would you do?
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm a
18 representative of people. As such, I would look
19 to those citizens who cast their election
20 ballots in my district and vote the will of my
21 district. The point is, Senator Gold, to give
22 the people a say. It's not to decide -- we
23 still have judgment factors, but we want the
2971
1 people to have a say. But right now, the people
2 have no say and that our intention is only to
3 give that say to those people.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator
5 yield to a question?
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly,
7 Senator.
8 SENATOR GOLD: In other words,
9 would you in the way you feel about the exercise
10 of your office feel that you would be bound by
11 what happened in this referendum, even though
12 the language of it says it's not binding?
13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, we
14 could debate Edmund Burke all afternoon, but the
15 fact is we're trying to give the people a say in
16 this process.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Well, thank
18 you, Senator.
19 Mr. President, on the bill. I'm
20 glad you said what you said because I realize,
21 Senator Nozzolio, I am somebody who has great
22 empathy for you, because I came over from the
23 Assembly, and it took a while to get used to
2972
1 this house.
2 I understand your comments about
3 Senator Dollinger, but I really don't understand
4 those comments. Senator Dollinger gave you an
5 answer which was perhaps a little more lucid
6 than yours but in the same line. If it's not
7 binding, it's not binding. You consider it.
8 And I don't think there was one word in Senator
9 Dollinger's remarks where he indicated anything
10 other than a great respect for his constituents.
11 Now, Senator Nozzolio -
12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator Gold
13 yield?
14 SENATOR GOLD: Of course.
15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator Gold,
16 I don't know if you were here to hear the entire
17 commentary by my colleague from Rochester. But
18 what I took umbrage of Senator's remarks were
19 that he suggested only 30 people would vote in
20 such a referendum in his district. Now, I think
21 that flies in the face of respecting the fact
22 that the people in his district, as in all our
23 districts, are interested in these issues, and
2973
1 that that is why I rose, and that is why I made
2 the comment I made.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you,
4 Senator.
5 Mr. President. As is quite
6 obvious at the end of April, having watched
7 Senator Dollinger perform his duties for four
8 months, he doesn't need any help from me in
9 taking care of himself. But that's not what he
10 said. I mean the point that he was making,
11 Senator Nozzolio, is simple.
12 If you have 100 percent of the
13 voting population in your district is X and in
14 this particular referendum just a fraction of
15 those people vote, I mean are you going to take
16 that as the total voice of your population? And
17 Senator Dollinger's remark was a very valid
18 one. It shows one of the faults of this
19 particular bill.
20 The other question I have for
21 you, Senator Nozzolio, which I'm not asking you
22 but I'm throwing it out there, is if you're so
23 concerned about the population why don't you put
2974
1 in a bill which really creates an election? This
2 non-binding business is just -- really creates
3 an absurdity.
4 Some quick comments. Somebody
5 used the expression that somebody over here was
6 going to hide behind the veil of the
7 constitution. Do you realize what a comment
8 that is? There is not one person in this house
9 that didn't raise his or her hand and swear to
10 uphold the constitution. I'm not hiding behind
11 it. I'm protecting it with every fiber in my
12 body. And if the constitution sets up a
13 process, I'm going to live by that process.
14 Comments were made, and I
15 understand now -- by the way, this is always an
16 education to be here. Senator Spano was 4 years
17 old in 1957. You were in the first grade. I
18 was -- look, I admit I'm getting older. I was
19 graduating Cornell and one year into law
20 school. You know, I'm glad we're learning about
21 each other. Senator Marchi was here making sure
22 the place still stayed. And I'm glad about all
23 of that.
2975
1 But, you know, it's very funny.
2 When you talk about being concerned about the
3 back door deals and all these terrible oops-da,
4 the stuff that happens in politics, that's what
5 you're talking about is 1957. And that's why
6 even though you were in the first grade you were
7 ashamed and, as I graduated from Cornell as a
8 government major, I was ashamed. And that's why
9 the Speaker and your Majority Leader and other
10 leaders said let's do it differently this year.
11 Now, I'm pretty sure that in 1957
12 there were no hearings. These hearings are
13 wonderful. There aren't hearings because the
14 constitution or the legislation says to do it.
15 There's hearings because a Speaker, who is
16 really -- what is the legislative word? -
17 mensch, wants the process out in the open, and
18 he wants people to hear from these people before
19 any election takes place. And at these hearings
20 Republicans as well as Democrats had an
21 opportunity to ask embarrassing questions, any
22 kind of question of these candidates, and that's
23 a process that no Republican Legislature ever
2976
1 did before when they had a majority in both
2 houses, and it's a process that was initiated
3 and agreed to by four leaders. It should have
4 been carried out.
5 As a matter of fact, when your
6 leadership and Rappleyea backed out of that
7 agreement, the Speaker and the Minority Leader
8 of this house even said, you know, "We're going
9 to hold the hearings, come in. Nobody is going
10 to tell you you don't have a seat, that you
11 can't be there to ask questions."
12 So the fact that you chose not to
13 participate doesn't mean it's a back-room
14 process. This is the most open process for an
15 election of this type that has ever happened in
16 the history of this state. It's interesting
17 that at this point you complain about it. The
18 closed processes you didn't complain about.
19 The bottom line here is that
20 while many people in this chamber and in other
21 chambers, in the other house, have suggested
22 that we ought to take a look at this, there is
23 nothing wrong with that. Maybe we should take a
2977
1 look at it. But the bottom line is that I don't
2 want this debate to close without some
3 recognition on the record that Manfred
4 Ohrenstein and Saul Weprin, together, are
5 responsible for the most open process of this
6 type in our history of our state and I, for one,
7 am very, very proud of them. Doesn't mean I
8 won't go to bat for a change. Doesn't mean that
9 the comments made by Senator Connor are not
10 articulate and bright and ought to be listened
11 to, because they are. And yours are not bad,
12 either.
13 But the point is that this
14 process is something we should be very proud
15 of. I'm voting against this bill today because
16 I think it is an answer to nothing, but I wanted
17 the record to indicate.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
19 Nozzolio to close.
20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm very proud
21 of this legislation, Senator Marino's and this
22 conference's attempt to make a bad process much
23 better. What this is all about, ladies and
2978
1 gentlemen, is giving the people a say.
2 You're sidetracking it, members
3 of the Minority. You are trying to obscure the
4 issue by suggesting that this referendum as a
5 non-binding referendum is a referendum without
6 merit. You are saying that even though people
7 would have a say under this process that their
8 say is still no good.
9 I challenge you to look at this
10 process as a non-binding one only because it's
11 the best we could do under the legal strictures
12 that we're confronted with. The state
13 constitution would not allow us in this bill to
14 state it to be a binding referendum. I dare say
15 if the measure had stated it was a binding
16 referendum, you would be up and charging that it
17 was against the constitution and, therefore,
18 would not be applicable.
19 We took that constitutional
20 argument away. We balanced the constitutional
21 argument and the non-binding nature of this
22 referendum as being half a loaf but better than
23 no loaf, allowing people the right to have a say
2979
1 in the process versus forbidding them to have
2 any say in a process that I believe has not
3 improved at all since 1957, when it was last
4 used.
5 We want the people to have a
6 voice in the selection of a new Comptroller. We
7 want that Comptroller to be independent of this
8 body, of the Assembly, of the Governor. The fox
9 should not be deciding who the guardian of the
10 chicken coop is to be. We believe the people
11 should have that say.
12 I will close by saying that Boss
13 Tweed would certainly approve of the way the
14 Democrats are selecting our next Comptroller.
15 It's time to diminish the influence of the power
16 brokers' influence on these decisions which are
17 made behind closed doors, and let the people
18 have the say in who the Comptroller is to be.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
20 last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
2980
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
4 Dollinger to explain his vote.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just rise
6 to explain my vote. I join in the sentiments
7 expressed earlier by my colleague, Senator Gold,
8 with respect to the openness of this process. I
9 only point out to my colleagues on the other
10 side of the aisle, does it sound familiar when
11 you talk about a process that you are not heard
12 on? Does it sound familiar when we talk about
13 change, and it goes unheard? Does it sound
14 familiar when someone says we're trying to draw
15 attention to the fact that this is not an open
16 and public process and that the people are being
17 excluded like Senator McArdle did in his quote
18 in the New York Times? Does it sound like
19 Senator McArdle? Senator McArdle seems to speak
20 on behalf of most of the house most of the
21 time.
22 But I just point out to all of
23 you that when we talk on this side about opening
2981
1 up the process, about opening up the Senate,
2 about disclosing mail, about itemizing budgets,
3 about quarterly reports, so that the people will
4 have some accountability from us, seems to fall
5 on deaf ears on the other side of the aisle.
6 Now the same complaint comes back
7 to us, because something has changed. Because
8 suddenly the members of this conference have the
9 ability to stand in the majority with our
10 colleagues in the Assembly.
11 I would suggest as Senator Connor
12 has and Senator Gold has that maybe we drop all
13 this at some point in the future and talk about
14 real change and real reform so that the
15 sentiments that Senator Nozzolio expressed about
16 accountability and listening to the people that
17 it will be the norm in this house and not the
18 exception.
19 I vote no.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Announce
21 the results.
22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
23 the negative on Calendar Number 558 are Senators
2982
1 Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gold, Hoffmann,
2 Jones, Leichter, Markowitz, Masiello, Mendez,
3 Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Onorato, Stachowski and
4 Stavisky. Ayes 42, nays 15. Also Senator
5 Galiber recorded in the negative.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
7 is passed.
8 Senator Present.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
10 May we take up Calendar 485, please.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
12 Secretary will read Calendar 485.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 485, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 4597,
15 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and
16 the Transportation Law, in relation to railroad
17 real property.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
19 last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This
21 act shall take effect immediately.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
23 roll.
2983
1 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2 SENATOR GOLD: Slow roll call.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
4 Dollinger, would you like to withdraw the roll
5 call?
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, Mr.
7 President. Could I just have a question -
8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
9 Dollinger.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- perhaps to
11 the sponsor? As I understand it, the community
12 enhancement board will review the plans that are
13 submitted by the railroads in this case.
14 SENATOR LARKIN: Not by the
15 railroad. Local governments will submit plans.
16 Local government will be a participant in this
17 process and the board will review it, Senator.
18 And in the event that the railroads do not do
19 the enhancement program as they had projected,
20 they will not be entitled to the tax exemption
21 for the coming year.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just for my
23 edification, Senator, could you tell me where
2984
1 that is in the bill? I know it talks on page 9
2 of the bill that the board may approve, and then
3 it says it shall not approve, but just where in
4 the bill does it say that the tax exemption
5 shall not be granted?
6 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator, the
7 powers of the board are on page 5, and they
8 start on line 9. And the enhancement program
9 starts on page 60, line 8 and goes all the way
10 through.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will
12 continue to search for it, Mr. President, but
13 I'm just intrigued by what happens if the plan
14 was disapproved and where the language was that
15 said that.
16 SENATOR LARKIN: Over a cup of
17 coffee in Rochester in the morning, I'll show it
18 to you.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I'll
20 continue to look while we perhaps discuss it
21 further, if that's -
22 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
23 last section.
2985
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Slow roll call.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Slow
5 roll call has been requested. Secretary will
6 call the roll.
7 Sergeant at arms, please get the
8 members in the chamber for a slow roll call.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush
10 excused. Senator Bruno.
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
13 SENATOR CONNOR: Aye.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook.
15 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Daly.
17 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator
19 DeFrancisco.
20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator
22 Dollinger.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No.
2986
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
2 SENATOR ESPADA: No.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley
4 excused. Senator Galiber.
5 SENATOR GALIBER: No.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
7 SENATOR GOLD: No.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator
9 Gonzalez.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Goodman.
12 (There was no response. )
13 Senator Halperin.
14 (There was no response. )
15 Senator Hannon.
16 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann
18 voting in the negative earlier today. Senator
19 Holland.
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson
22 voting in the affirmative earlier today.
23 Senator Jones.
2987
1 SENATOR JONES: To explain my
2 vote.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
4 Jones to explain her vote.
5 SENATOR JONES: First, I want to
6 thank Senator Larkin, because it does represent
7 an effort to help the situation for the local
8 government. Certainly, letting the tax
9 abatement stand would not have been any help.
10 However, I just can't feel at
11 this point that it's enough. We keep talking
12 about our local government, the needs they
13 have. We cut back on revenue sharing. We have
14 concerns about school aid. The railroads have
15 become very profitable since that ceiling law
16 was first established. And I think if we want
17 to give the railroads a tax break that it's up
18 to the state to do it and not stick our local
19 governments with another issue where they could
20 have raised a little extra tax money.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: How do
22 you vote, Senator?
23 SENATOR JONES: No.
2988
1 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
2 Jones in the negative.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
4 SENATOR KUHL: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack
6 voting in the affirmative earlier today.
7 Senator Larkin.
8 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle
10 voting in the affirmative earlier today.
11 Senator Leichter voting in the
12 negative earlier today.
13 Senator Levy.
14 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous
16 voting in the affirmative earlier today.
17 Senator Maltese -- excuse me.
18 Senator Libous voting in the negative earlier
19 today. Senator Maltese voting in the
20 affirmative earlier today.
21 Senator Marchi.
22 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino.
2989
1 (Indicating "Aye." )
2 THE SECRETARY: Aye. Senator
3 Markowitz.
4 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Masiello.
6 SENATOR MASIELLO: No.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mega.
8 SENATOR MEGA: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator
12 Montgomery.
13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nolan
15 voting in the negative earlier today. Senator
16 Nozzolio.
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator
19 Ohrenstein.
20 (Indicating no. )
21 THE SECRETARY: No. Senator
22 Onorato.
23 SENATOR ONORATO: No.
2990
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Oppenheimer.
3 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Pataki.
7 SENATOR PATAKI: Aye.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator
9 Paterson.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Present.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
14 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Santiago.
17 (There was no response. )
18 Senator Sears.
19 SENATOR SEARS: Yes.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward
21 voting in the affirmative earlier today.
22 Senator Sheffer.
23 SENATOR SHEFFER: Yes.
2991
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
4 (There was no response. )
5 Senator Solomon voting in the
6 negative earlier today. Senator Spano.
7 SENATOR SPANO: Yes.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator
9 Stachowski.
10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford.
12 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky
14 voting in the negative earlier today. Senator
15 Trunzo voting in the affirmative earlier today.
16 Senator Tully voting in the affirmative earlier
17 today.
18 Senator Velella.
19 (There was no response. )
20 Senator Volker.
21 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon
23 excused. Senator Wright.
2992
1 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
3 Secretary will call the absentees.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Gonzalez.
6 (There was no response. )
7 Senator Goodman.
8 (There was no response. )
9 Senator Halperin.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Paterson.
12 (There was no response. )
13 Senator Santiago.
14 (There was no response. )
15 Senator Smith.
16 (There was no response. )
17 Senator Velella.
18 (There was no response. )
19 Ayes 32, nays 19.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
21 is passed.
22 Senator Galiber.
23 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President.
2993
1 I was not in the chamber yesterday, and I would
2 like to make a statement for the record, with
3 your permission. Yesterday, I was out of the
4 chamber; and if I were here, I would like to be
5 recorded for the record that I would have voted
6 in the negative on Bills Number 452, 455, 457
7 and 460.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Without
9 objection, the record will so indicate.
10 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senator
13 Present.
14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
15 I wish to call up a Rules bill, Senate Print
16 4651, which is now at the desk.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
18 Secretary will read.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 570, Senate Bill Number 4651, by the Committee
21 on Rules, amends Chapter 79 of the Laws of 1990
22 -- 1989, amending the Correction Law.
23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
2994
1 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this
2 bill passed and ask that it being restored to
3 Third Reading.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The
5 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
6 (The Secretary called the roll on
7 reconsideration. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
10 is before the house.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
12 I now move to discharge the Committee on Crime
13 Victims and Crime and Correction from Assembly
14 Bill 7691 and substitute it for this identical
15 bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:
17 Substitution ordered, without objection.
18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
19 Is there a message of n ecessity at the desk on
20 this bill?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Yes, we
22 have a message at the desk.
23 SENATOR PRESENT: I move we
2995
1 accept the message.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: All
3 those in favor of accepting the message, signify
4 by saying aye.
5 (Response of "Aye.")
6 Those opposed, nay.
7 (There was no response. )
8 The message is accepted.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
10 May we have its third reading now.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Read the
12 last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Call the
16 roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll. )
18 THE SECRETARY: Unanimous.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: The bill
20 is passed.
21 Senator Present.
22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
23 There being no further business, I move we
2996
1 adjourn until Monday, May 3rd, at 2:30 p.m.,
2 intervening days to be legislative days.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO: Senate
4 will stand adjourned until Monday at 2:30,
5 intervening days to be legislative days.
6 (Whereupon, at 4:23 p.m., the
7 Senate adjourned. )
8
9
10
11