Regular Session - May 4, 1993
3040
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 May 4, 1993
11 6:19 p.m.
12
13
14 REGULAR SESSION
15
16
17
18 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President
19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
20
21
22
23
3041
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 Senate will come to order. Senators will please
4 find their seats. If you would please rise for
5 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.
6 (The assemblage repeated the
7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. )
8 This evening we're pleased to
9 have with us Bishop Muriel Grant of the Mount
10 Olivet Discipleship of Brooklyn, New York.
11 Bishop Grant.
12 BISHOP MURIEL GRANT: Let us
13 pray.
14 May the divine presence of the
15 Almighty God be with us this day, and though we
16 are yet a short distance from the genesis of
17 this administration, may He guide and bless the
18 President of these United States. Bless our
19 land with honorable industry, sound learning and
20 pure manners. Save us from violence, discord
21 and confusion, from pride and arrogance and from
22 every evil way. Defend our liberty in its
23 foundations and fashion us into one united
3042
1 people, the multitudes brought hither out of
2 many kindreds and towns, but yet one in
3 divisible under God. Most especially, O Lord,
4 we beseech Thee for our very Senate
5 representatives here assembled, Democrats and
6 Republicans, that Thou wouldst be pleased to
7 direct and prosper all their consultations for
8 the advancement of Thy glory, the good of Thy
9 church, the safety, honor and welfare of Thy
10 people that all things may be ordered and
11 settled by their endeavors upon the best and
12 surest foundations, that peace and happiness,
13 truth and justice, religion and piety may be
14 established among us for all generations.
15 These and all other necessities I
16 do humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ, our
17 most blessed Lord and Savior. Amen.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
19 Secretary will begin by reading the Journal.
20 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
21 Monday, May 3rd. The Senate met pursuant to
22 adjournment, Senator Farley in the Chair upon
23 designation of the Temporary President. Prayer
3043
1 by the Reverend Michael Martin of St. Francis
2 High School in Hamburg, New York. The Journal
3 of Friday, April 30th, was read and approved.
4 On motion, Senate adjourned.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing
6 no objection, the Journal will stand approved as
7 read.
8 The order of business:
9 Presentation of petitions.
10 Messages from the Assembly.
11 Messages from the Governor.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Gold.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Are there
16 any messages at the desk from the Assembly?
17 THE SECRETARY: I don't have any.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We have
19 none.
20 SENATOR GOLD: It's my
21 understanding, Mr. President, that the Assembly
22 yesterday, I believe it was, adopted a resolu
23 tion confirming the existence of a joint session
3044
1 tomorrow at 10:30 in the Assembly Chamber called
2 pursuant to a document signed by the Lt.
3 Governor and by the Speaker, and I was informed
4 that that was at least presented to our desk and
5 is in the house. What the Chair does with it is
6 up to the Chair, but I think that the document
7 was, in fact, filed with us.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: They're
9 not here at the desk.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 Messages from the Governor.
13 Reports of standing committees.
14 We have a report of a standing committee. We
15 have a number of nominations, Senator Present.
16 May we do them all at once?
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
18 from the Committee on Finance, reports the
19 following nominations:
20 Member of the New York State
21 Olympic Regional Development Authority: Frank
22 Leonbruno, of Bolton Landing, and Serge Lussi,
23 of Lake Placid;
3045
1 New York Convention Center
2 Operation Corporation: Gary J. Lavine, of
3 Syracuse, and Jerome Reiss, of New York City;
4 Member of the Mental Health
5 Services Council: M. Juliana Degone, of Canton;
6 Banking Member of the State
7 Banking Board: George J. Vojta, of Bronxville;
8 Member of the Board of Visitors
9 of the South Beach Psychiatric Center: Luis A.
10 Castro, of Brooklyn;
11 Member of the Board of Visitors
12 of the Creedmoor Psychiatric Center: Philip
13 Click, of Flushing, and Judy Grubin, of Jackson
14 Heights;
15 Member of the Board of Visitors
16 of the St. Lawrence Psychiatric Center: Michael
17 P. Frary, of Ogdensburg;
18 Member of the Board of Visitors
19 of the Letchworth Village Developmental
20 Disabilities Services Office: Judith Jurow, of
21 Middletown;
22 Member of the Board of Visitors
23 of the Newark Developmental Disabilities
3046
1 Services Office: Anne M. Longo, of Geneva;
2 Member of the Board of Visitors
3 of Syracuse Developmental Disabilities Services
4 Office: John P. McCrea, of Jamesville;
5 Member of the Board of Visitors
6 of the Bronx Developmental Disabilities Services
7 Office: Jack Meyers, of the Bronx;
8 Member of the Board of Visitors
9 of the Brooklyn Developmental Disabilities
10 Services: Antoinette Mizrahi, of Brooklyn;
11 Member of the Board of Visitors
12 of the Sagamore Children's Psychiatric Center:
13 Emanuel Plesent, of Dix Hills;
14 Member of the Board of Visitors
15 of the Bronx Psychiatric Center: Gladys
16 Rodriguez, of the Bronx;
17 Member of the Board of Visitors
18 of the Mohawk Valley Psychiatric Center, Flora
19 L. Sainz, of Utica;
20 Member of the Board of Visitors
21 of the Staten Island Developmental Disabilities
22 Services Office: Richard Salinardi, of Staten
23 Island;
3047
1 Member of the Board of Visitors
2 of the Capital District Psychiatric Center,
3 Reverend Jared Van Wagenen IV, of Cobleskill.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
5 confirmation -- on the confirmations, all in
6 favor say aye.
7 (Response of "Aye.")
8 Those opposed nay.
9 (There was no response. )
10 They're confirmed.
11 Next order of business is, let's
12 see, reports of select committees.
13 Communications and reports from
14 state officers.
15 Motions and resolutions. Senator
16 Maltese.
17 Senator Present.
18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
19 I believe there are two privileged resolutions
20 at the desk of our Majority Leader's. May I
21 have the titles read on them at this time,
22 please.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, we
3048
1 may. The Secretary will read the titles of the
2 privileged resolutions.
3 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
4 Resolution by Senator Marino, and others,
5 mourning the death of Reverend Lawrence J.
6 McGinley, S.J., the 26th president and president
7 emeritus of Fordham University;
8 Also legislative Resolution, by
9 Senator Marino, and others, mourning the passing
10 of Reverend James F. Finlay, S.J., 30th
11 president of Fordham University and interim
12 president of LeMoyne College.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
14 resolutions, all in favor say aye.
15 (Response of "Aye.")
16 Opposed nay.
17 (There was no response. )
18 The resolutions are adopted.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Maltese.
21 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
22 on behalf of Senator Saland, on page 15, I offer
23 the following amendments to Calendar 334, Senate
3049
1 Print 796.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
3 Amendments are received.
4 SENATOR MALTESE: And ask that
5 said bill retain its place on the Third Reading
6 Calendar.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill
8 will retain its place.
9 SENATOR MALTESE: On my behalf,
10 on page 22, I offer the following amendments to
11 Calendar Number 508, Senate Print 4518, and ask
12 that said bill retain its place on the Third
13 Reading Calendar.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
15 objection.
16 SENATOR MALTESE: On behalf of
17 Senator Farley, on page 32, I offer the
18 following amendments to Calendar Number 204,
19 Senate Print 992, and ask that said bill retain
20 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
22 Amendments are received, bill will retain its
23 place.
3050
1 Senator Libous.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Pardon me?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
4 Libous. A little slip there.
5 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
6 President.
7 SENATOR SALAND: Did you say
8 Libeth or Liveth?
9 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
10 I'd like to put a star -- a sponsor's star on my
11 bill, Calendar Number 494, and it's Senate Bill
12 3917.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
14 bill is starred at the request of the sponsor,
15 Senator Libous.
16 Senator Saland.
17 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr.
18 President. Like Senator Libeth, I would like to
19 place a sponsor's star on a bill, page 23,
20 Calendar Number 516, Senate Print 3642.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is
22 starred.
23 Senator Present.
3051
1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
2 I move we adopt the Resolution Calendar.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All
4 those in favor of adopting the Resolution
5 Calendar say aye.
6 (Response of "Aye.")
7 Those opposed nay.
8 (There was no response. )
9 The Resolution Calendar is
10 adopted. Senator Present.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you
12 recognize Senator Nozzolio, please.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Nozzolio.
15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
16 President. I have a privileged resolution at
17 the desk. If you could please read the title.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
19 Secretary will read the title of Senator
20 Nozzolio's resolution.
21 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
22 Resolution, by Senator Nozzolio, honoring Dr.
23 Anthony T. Beaudry upon his retirement as
3052
1 superintendent of schools, Moravia Central
2 School District.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
4 resolution, all in favor say aye.
5 (Response of "Aye.")
6 Those opposed nay.
7 (There was no response. )
8 The resolution is adopted.
9 Senator Present.
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you
11 recognize Senator Kuhl, please.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Kuhl.
14 SENATOR KUHL: Yes. Mr.
15 President, there's a privileged resolution, I
16 believe, at the desk in my name. I'd like to
17 move that at this time and ask the clerk to read
18 the last -- read the resolution.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
20 the title.
21 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
22 Resolution, by Senator Kuhl, memorializing
23 Governor Mario M. Cuomo to declare
3053
1 storm-stricken Schuyler County a disaster area
2 in the state of New York.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
4 resolution, all those in favor say aye.
5 (Response of "Aye.")
6 Those opposed nay.
7 (There was no response. )
8 The resolution is adopted.
9 Senator Present, we have a
10 substitution.
11 THE SECRETARY: On page 31,
12 Senator Volker moves to discharge the Committee
13 on Corporations, Authorities and Commissions
14 from Assembly Bill Number 1941-A and substitute
15 it for the identical Third Reading 1141-A.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
17 Substitution is ordered.
18 Are there any other motions?
19 Senator Present?
20 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
21 let's take up the non-controversial calendar.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
23 Non-controversial, Secretary will read.
3054
1 THE SECRETARY: On page 16,
2 Calendar Number 346, by Senator Skelos.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
5 aside.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 495, by Senator Velella, Senate Bill Number
8 3583, an act to amend the Insurance Law.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
10 the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
14 the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 bill is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 497, by member of the Assembly Gottfried,
21 Assembly Bill Number 6927, Insurance Law, in
22 relation to coverage for cervical cytology
23 screening.
3055
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
2 the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
6 the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
10 bill is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 499, by Senator Larkin.
13 SENATOR LARKIN: Lay aside for
14 the day.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
16 that bill aside for today.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 503, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 4309,
19 Judiciary Law, in relation to lawyer assistance
20 committees.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
22 the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3056
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 bill is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 509, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number 28,
10 appropriate funds to provide repayment to the
11 Warwick Valley Central School.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
13 a -
14 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
16 that bill aside.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 510, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number
19 1194, Executive Law, in relation to out-of-state
20 provider pharmacies.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
22 the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3057
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 bill is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: 512, by Senator
9 Johnson, Senate Bill Number 1700, State Finance
10 Law, relation to -
11 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
13 aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: 513, by Senator
15 Farley, Senate Bill Number 2469, New York State
16 Printing -
17 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
19 aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 515, by Senator Goodman, Senate Bill Number
22 2653, Executive Law and the State Finance Law.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
3058
1 the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
5 the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
9 bill is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 517, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
12 3659, establish a moratorium.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside,
14 please.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
16 aside.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 518, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number
19 4184, State Finance Law, in relation to
20 providing for the acceptance of bids.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
22 the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3059
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 bill is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: 519, by Senator
9 Stafford, Senate Bill Number 4265, State Finance
10 Law, in relation to certain examinations
11 performed by the Comptroller.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
13 the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
17 the roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays
20 two, Senators -- oh. Ayes 56, nays 3, Senators
21 Kuhl, Pataki and Tully recorded in the
22 negative.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3060
1 bill is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 520, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print -
4 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
6 aside.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 521, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4020,
9 authorize the payment of transportation aid to
10 Poughkeepsie City School District.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
12 the last section.
13 Hold it. There's a local fiscal
14 impact note here at the desk. You can read the
15 last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
19 the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
23 bill is passed.
3061
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 523, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2551,
3 Highway Law, in relation to definition of the
4 Southern Tier Expressway.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
6 the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
14 bill is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 527, by Senator Present, Senate Bill Number
17 2062-A, Workers' Compensation Law, in relation
18 to payment of workers' compensation insurance
19 premiums.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
21 the last section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
23 act shall take effect immediately.
3062
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
2 the roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
6 bill is passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 534, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 1065,
9 General Municipal Law and the Education Law.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
11 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. You can
12 read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
16 the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll. )
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
20 bill is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 535, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number 1150,
23 making certain findings and determinations.
3063
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
2 a home rule message here at the desk. You can
3 read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
11 bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 537, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number
14 1432.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
17 aside.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 540, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number
20 2400-A, authorize the town of Collins to lease
21 facilities.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
23 a home rule message here at the desk. You can
3064
1 read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
5 the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
9 bill is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 541, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 2449,
12 County Law, in relation to investigation of
13 death by coroners.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
15 the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
19 the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
23 bill is passed.
3065
1 THE SECRETARY: 542, by Senator
2 Present, Senate Bill Number 2537, Real Property
3 Tax Law.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
5 the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
9 the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
13 bill is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: 543, by Senator
15 Spano, Senate Bill Number 2557, General
16 Municipal Law, in relation to requiring notice
17 be given concerning a change -
18 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
20 aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: 544, by Senator
22 Cook, Senate Bill Number 2702, Real Property Tax
23 Law.
3066
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
2 the -- somebody say lay it aside? Laid aside?
3 SENATOR GOLD: Last section.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold
5 on. Read the last section on Senator Cook's
6 bill.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59, nays
13 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
15 bill is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 548, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 2957,
18 legalize, validate the issuance of certain bond
19 anticipation notes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
21 a home rule message here at the desk. You can
22 read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3067
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
3 the roll.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
6 Withdraw the roll, lay it aside.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 549, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 2959,
9 amends Chapter 676 of the Laws of 1978.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
11 the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
15 the roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll. )
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
19 bill is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 550, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 2972,
22 making certain findings and determinations with
23 respect to certain bond anticipation notes.
3068
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
2 a home rule message at the desk. You can read
3 the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
11 bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 552, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 3107,
14 an act to amend the Village Law.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
16 the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
20 the roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3069
1 bill is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: 553, by Senator
3 Bruno, Senate Bill Number 3281, establish a
4 library district in the town of North Greenbush.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
6 the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
14 bill is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 554, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3064,
17 Real Property Tax Law, in relation to small
18 claim assessment review.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
20 the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
3070
1 the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
5 bill is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: 556, by Senator
7 Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3412, Real Property Tax
8 Law.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
10 the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
14 the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59, nays
17 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
19 bill is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 557, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 3985,
22 General Municipal Law, in relation to voting
23 authority of members.
3071
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
2 the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
6 the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
10 bill is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 559, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 1813,
13 an act to amend the Tax Law.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
15 the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
19 the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
23 bill is passed.
3072
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 560, by Senator Farley, Senate Bill Number 2384,
3 an act to amend the State Law.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
5 the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 SENATOR CONNOR: Could we read
9 the title, please.
10 THE SECRETARY: An act in
11 relation to the establishment of bluebird week.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Let it fly.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
14 the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
16 act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
18 the roll.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Slow roll call.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes -
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
23 Results. What is this?
3073
1 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
2 the negative on Calendar Number 560 are Senators
3 Galiber, Leichter, Libous, Pataki, Saland,
4 Smith, Spano and Wright. Ayes 52, nays 8.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
6 bill is passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 561, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number
9 2659, an act to amend the Tax Law.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
11 the last section.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
14 aside.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 562, by Senator Present, Senate Bill Number
17 2956, an act to amend the Tax Law.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
19 the last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
21 act shall take effect immediately.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
23 the roll.
3074
1 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
4 bill is passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 563, by Senator Mega, Senate Bill Number 3004,
7 an act to amend the Tax Law.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
9 the last section. Oh. Oh, there's a local
10 fiscal impact note at the desk. You can read
11 the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
15 the roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll. )
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
19 bill is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 564, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 3410,
22 an act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control
23 Law.
3075
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
2 the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
6 the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
10 bill is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: 565, by Senator
12 Levy, Senate Bill Number 3692, an act to amend
13 Chapter 166 of the Laws of 1991.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
15 the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
19 the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll.)
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
23 bill is passed.
3076
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 567, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 4021,
3 an act to amend the Tax Law.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
5 the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
9 the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
13 bill is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: 568, by Senator
15 Cook, Senate Bill Number 4156, authorizing the
16 Commissioner of General Services to sell certain
17 land in the town of -
18 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
20 that bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: 569, by Senator
22 Cook.
23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside.
3077
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
2 aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: 573, by Senator
4 Marino, Senate Bill Number 35...
5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Laid aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
7 aside.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 577, by member of the Assembly DiNapoli,
10 Assembly Bill Number 583, Environmental
11 Conservation Law.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
13 the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
17 the roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
21 bill is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 578, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 4387.
3078
1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
3 aside.
4 That's the first time through,
5 Senator Present.
6 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
7 let's take up the controversial calendar.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
9 Controversial, Secretary will read.
10 THE SECRETARY: On page 16,
11 Calendar Number 346, by Senator Skelos, Senate
12 Bill Number 3860-A, in relation to directing the
13 Crime Victims Board.
14 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Can we have
15 a day on this bill, please?
16 SENATOR PRESENT: No objection.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
18 aside.
19 THE SECRETARY: On page 22,
20 Calendar Number 509, by Senator Holland, Senate
21 Bill Number 28, appropriate funds to provide
22 repayment to the Warwick Valley Central School.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah.
3079
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
2 a local fiscal impact note at the desk.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Will
4 Senator Holland yield to one question, please.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Holland.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I'm just
8 curious about something. We passed this last
9 year unanimously, and what I'm concerned about
10 is, is there anything in the budget or in
11 conversations which indicates that these people
12 are going to get this money? I understand you
13 want them to get it. I voted last year and if
14 it got approved in the system, I certainly
15 wasn't opposed to it. I'm not opposed to it
16 this year, but what I'm concerned about is
17 whether or not we, by passing it without any
18 real negotiation, are just misleading these
19 people in some way.
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: You're asking
21 me is the money set aside, Senator? No, it's
22 not set aside.
23 SENATOR GOLD: It is set aside.
3080
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: It is not set
2 aside, no, it is not.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Well, is there
4 anything going on right now which would lead us
5 to believe that this money will actually pass to
6 them?
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Not at this
8 point. I'm sure we can work on that. But the
9 relevant point, I think everybody agrees
10 including the school district, I mean the
11 Education Department and the Comptroller, that a
12 mistake was made. The money was taken away from
13 the schools seven years after they made the
14 handicapped renovations, and somehow the money
15 should be returned to the school, whether it's
16 done in this resolution or whether it's done in
17 the budget next year.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
19 section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
21 act shall take effect immediately.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
23 roll.
3081
1 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
4 is passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 512, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
7 1700, an act to amend the State Finance Law, in
8 relation to the purchase of American-made
9 goods.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
12 Explanation has been asked for by Senator
13 Leichter.
14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Lay it aside.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
16 bill aside.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 513, by Senator Farley, Senate Bill Number 2469,
19 an act to amend the New York State Printing and
20 Public Documents Law.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
22 section.
23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation,
3082
1 please.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
3 Explanation has been asked for. Senator
4 Farley.
5 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you. This
6 bill would save the state tax money by requiring
7 that most government documents be printed on the
8 standard 8-1/2 by 11 paper. The cost of this
9 paper is lower than the larger sizes such as the
10 legal size 14-inch paper. In addition, the cost
11 of filing, equipment, storage space should be
12 considerably less.
13 Records administration experts
14 believe that this standardization could reduce
15 paper purchases and record-filing expenditures
16 by as much as 25 percent. This bill is part of
17 an interstate cooperation effort spearheaded by
18 the Association of Records Managers and
19 Administrators. 31 states, including New York,
20 have adopted letter size paper standards in
21 their state court systems. Federal court papers
22 have been letter size paper for over a decade.
23 The bill excludes certain
3083
1 specialized forms such as maps and architectural
2 drawings, and it goes on. Also forms may be of
3 a smaller size. So the bill does not affect
4 driver's licenses, other pocket size documents.
5 The bill saves money by providing
6 that existing paper stocks may be used until the
7 supply is exhausted. The bill is sponsored and
8 supported by the Association of Record Managers,
9 the State Town Clerks Association, the National
10 Federation of Independent Businesses, by General
11 Motors Corporation, Morgan Stanley Company, the
12 Chambers of Commerce of Schenectady, Saratoga,
13 Otsego, Mount Vernon, Waddington and North
14 Syracuse. The bill is sponsored in the Assembly
15 by Assemblywoman Jenkins.
16 Last section.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Leichter.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
21 would Senator Farley yield?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He does.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
3084
1 Farley, does this bill apply to the Legislature?
2 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, I think it
3 would. That's a good question. I think it
4 would. Yes.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right.
6 It's your intent that it does apply to the
7 Legislature?
8 SENATOR FARLEY: That's as far as
9 I know. This -- just a second.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: I don't have
11 the New York State Public Printing and Documents
12 Law and I'm not sure that that necessarily
13 applies to the Legislature, but I'm pleased to
14 hear you say that you want to, in this instance
15 at least, have the Legislature be subject to the
16 same rules as everybody else.
17 I just suggest we double check
18 that point because I think it would be
19 embarrassing to find out that this great bill
20 that you've sponsored doesn't apply to your own
21 house, and I understand that's not your intent.
22 SENATOR FARLEY: That's a good
23 point. I'll check on it for sure, and my
3085
1 counsel is not here, but my best judgment is
2 that it does apply because it applies to all
3 public records.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
5 section.
6 Senator Halperin?
7 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President.
8 Would Senator Farley yield, please?
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Solomon.
11 SENATOR SOLOMON: If the desk can
12 just hold up the jackets to one of the bills, I
13 don't want to pose any problems, but might that
14 not be a problem for government functioning in
15 this state because it is not 8-1/2 by 11 and
16 that was just brought up by your comment?
17 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, this is
18 done. This bill would exclude certain
19 specialized forms such as maps and architectural
20 drawings, computer printouts, forms of different
21 sizes when an automated processing system makes
22 the size more economical and, of course, tax
23 forms.
3086
1 The bill is -- is one that has
2 been in effect in many other states. They're
3 trying to be practical here. For instance, with
4 the bill jacket, and so forth, I wouldn't say
5 that that's a piece of paper that is used as
6 necessarily as a public document, so I don't
7 know that it would apply to that.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Halperin.
10 SENATOR HALPERIN: Senator, I
11 hold in my hand a grid. It's obviously not
12 letter size. It fits a lot of information on
13 it; it's easy to use. If I couldn't use a piece
14 of paper this size to put it on, I'd probably
15 have to have two different pieces of paper to
16 put the same information on.
17 I -- I really don't understand
18 why we need a state statute telling us in
19 government that we -- that we can't use a
20 certain size of paper that might be convenient
21 to us and convenient to the public without
22 amending the law.
23 Now, obviously, you've recognized
3087
1 that it doesn't make sense to have this
2 requirement apply in certain areas, and despite
3 your vast knowledge and your insight and your
4 intellectual capacity and all of those people
5 who've worked on this bill with you, I dare say
6 that there are other examples that are going to
7 come up where it's just not going to be
8 convenient and, for that matter, economical to
9 use letter size paper, and I don't know why we
10 need a state statute telling us, micromanaging
11 us, in what we do either in the Legislature or
12 in agencies.
13 Now, if it is felt that in most
14 instances it is cost-effective to use letter
15 size paper and you would wish to mandate that
16 government use it in all circumstances unless
17 there is reasonable cause not to use it -
18 SENATOR FARLEY: I think you've
19 got reasonable cause in your hand.
20 SENATOR HALPERIN: But where does
21 the bill say that? It says, I mean I can go
22 through, you tell me where in this bill it says
23 that I'm allowed to create something for -
3088
1 SENATOR FARLEY: This is a
2 uniform piece of legislation which -- which has
3 been adopted in 30-some states. It's a piece of
4 legislation that is reasonable and it's the
5 whole purpose of it is -- you're a distinguished
6 lawyer. You know that the New York State court
7 system for the past, well, anyway the federal
8 courts have had it for over a decade and the New
9 York State court system has it now.
10 All we're trying to do is bring
11 New York State -- this is a cost saving device
12 that has been supported by everybody that -- in
13 the free world.
14 SENATOR HALPERIN: All right,
15 thank you. Well, Mr. President, on the bill. I
16 guess there's one person in the free world -
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Halperin on the bill.
19 SENATOR HALPERIN: -- at least
20 who is not convinced of the wisdom of this very
21 restrictive legislation.
22 I don't question the fact that
23 there is waste that should be eliminated, that
3089
1 in many circumstances using smaller pieces of
2 paper would be advisable and trying to
3 standardize the use of paper would be advisable,
4 but I also feel that this type of government
5 mandate is -- is uncalled for and that we could,
6 by legislation, encourage the use of
7 standardized pieces of paper without requiring
8 us to come back to the Legislature every time we
9 come up with a -- with a use of paper that isn't
10 standardized.
11 I point out again, I can't
12 imagine any advantage to trying to squeeze this
13 onto a -- it's small enough as it is, the
14 printing, to try to squeeze this onto an eight
15 and a -- an eight or an 8-1/2 by 11 piece of
16 paper. It just doesn't make sense, and it -- I
17 don't understand why we're trying to do this by
18 statute, and not everyone in the free world
19 agrees because the Office of General Services,
20 which is responsible for managing the operation
21 of state government generally, opposes this
22 legislation because they think that it will be
23 more costly to try to switch over to certain
3090
1 systems and certain circumstances and I think
2 they know what they're talking about.
3 Now, once again, if we can
4 encourage something and promote it through -
5 and require people to justify why they're not
6 going to -- to go along with a system that may
7 make sense, that's one thing, but this bill goes
8 beyond that, and I don't think it makes sense to
9 try to micromanage government through a legis...
10 through legislative fiat in this particular
11 manner.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Smith, on the bill.
14 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr.
15 President.
16 Will Senator Farley yield for
17 just two questions?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Farley, do you yield?
20 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 does.
23 SENATOR SMITH: I'm a little
3091
1 perplexed. Do you know the cost of a ream of
2 8-1/2 by 11 paper?
3 SENATOR FARLEY: No, I don't know
4 it off the top of my head.
5 SENATOR SMITH: Do you know the
6 cost of a ream of 8-1/2 by 14?
7 SENATOR FARLEY: I know that the
8 cost of 8-1/2 by 11 paper, which is standard
9 paper is cheaper than the 14-inch paper and
10 unusual size paper, and it's sold by the pound
11 incidentally.
12 SENATOR SMITH: It's sold by the
13 pound.
14 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes.
15 SENATOR SMITH: But when you buy
16 Xerox paper, you can buy it by the pound or you
17 can buy it by the ream or you can buy it by
18 weight.
19 SENATOR FARLEY: It's also by
20 weight, 16-pound paper, 20-pound paper, 25-pound
21 bond. There's all different prices.
22 SENATOR SMITH: Senator Farley,
23 is it not that a pound is the quality of the
3092
1 paper, that they rate it by?
2 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, yes.
3 SENATOR SMITH: Not by the cost.
4 I mean a ream of paper is usually five hundred
5 sheets; is that correct?
6 SENATOR FARLEY: That's correct.
7 SENATOR SMITH: Well, the last
8 time I purchased a ream, I think the difference
9 was somewhere around 50 cents, but if you -- if
10 you use a ream of 8-1/2 by 11 and you need to
11 use two sheets versus one sheet of the 8-1/2 by
12 14 to make up for the difference, wouldn't that
13 still be more costly because you'd only have the
14 advantage of using 250 sheets versus five
15 hundred sheets? So I'm at a loss. Can you tell
16 me where the savings is?
17 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, it -- this
18 is -- this legislation has been in effect and
19 the National Association of Record Managers and
20 Administrators have said that this can save as
21 much as 25 percent in the cost of paper. Do you
22 know what a blizzard of paper New York State
23 uses?
3093
1 SENATOR SMITH: Senator Farley,
2 may I make a suggestion that you buy them a new
3 calculator?
4 SENATOR PRESENT: Last section.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
6 section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
9 Farley.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Leichter.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Senator,
15 I just got the law that you're amending and
16 while I have got it just at the moment when the
17 clerk called the last section, it doesn't seem
18 to me that this law will apply to the
19 Legislature, so I just -- you might wish to, if
20 -- since your intent was to have it apply to
21 the Legislature, you may wish to lay the bill
22 aside for a day.
23 SENATOR FARLEY: I don't wish to
3094
1 do that.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: And get it
3 straightened out.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Leichter.
6 SENATOR FARLEY: As I'm reading
7 the law, it says section 3 of the New York State
8 Printing and Public Documents Law is amended.
9 Now, when you're talking about New York State
10 printing and public documents most of the public
11 documents that we use here are -- most of -- at
12 least the Legislature has public documents.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator,
14 excuse me.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Leichter, is it your intention -- may I ask you
17 to direct -
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
19 Farley.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: It's a
21 little difficult to hear, so may I ask you to
22 direct the questions you're asking the Senator
23 to yield to through the Chair, please.
3095
1 Senator Leichter.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, Senator,
3 if you would yield, please.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Farley, do you yield?
6 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, I will.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 yields.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: I call your
10 attention to Section 3 which says, the
11 Commissioner of General Services shall have
12 general supervision over the letting of all
13 contracts for public printing to be provided
14 herein. So I think that that section, and again
15 I'm reading it quickly, seems to apply to those
16 contracts let by the Commissioner of General
17 Services.
18 My understanding is that the
19 legislative branch lets its own contracts, makes
20 its own arrangement. I think they'd be sort of
21 aghast if they felt they would be -- were
22 subject to the control of the Commissioner of
23 General Services. So on a quick reading, I
3096
1 would say this is not applicable to the
2 Legislature.
3 I -- I just also wanted to say
4 that I thought Senator Halperin made some good
5 points, but if you're going to have this and as
6 you said you intended it, it should apply to the
7 Legislature. I -- I believe that it does not,
8 and you may just wish to take a look at it and
9 make sure that it does, if that's your
10 intent.
11 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, the point
12 of it is, I don't see where the Legislature is
13 excluded.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
15 section.
16 Senator Tully, why do you rise?
17 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President,
18 would Senator Farley yield to a few questions?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Farley, would you yield?
21 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, Senator
22 Tully.
23 SENATOR TULLY: Senator Farley,
3097
1 did you know that this legislation has been
2 recommended by the Albany Chapter of the
3 Association of Record Managers and
4 Administrators?
5 SENATOR FARLEY: I was aware of
6 that.
7 SENATOR TULLY: Did you know it's
8 a part of a national efforts by the Association
9 of Record Managers and Administrators to
10 eliminate legal forms?
11 SENATOR FARLEY: I was aware of
12 that.
13 SENATOR TULLY: Did you know that
14 31 states, including New York, have now adopted
15 letter size paper in their state court systems?
16 SENATOR FARLEY: That's correct.
17 SENATOR TULLY: Did you know
18 that, since 1983, the federal court papers have
19 been on letter size paper?
20 SENATOR FARLEY: That's over ten
21 years.
22 SENATOR TULLY: And I know
23 because you know all these things, you proposed
3098
1 this legislation. Thank you, Senator Farley.
2 SENATOR FARLEY: It's a great
3 piece of legislation. It's even more
4 significant than bluebird week, I tell you that.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
6 section.
7 Senator Gold.
8 SENATOR GOLD: I just want to
9 inform the house that I have a bill in one of
10 the committees and if Senator Tully would ask me
11 questions about it, I could get it out on the
12 floor too, I think.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
14 section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
16 act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
18 roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll. )
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59 -- ayes
21 58, nays 2, Senators Halperin and Leichter
22 recorded in the negative.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
3099
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 517, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
4 3659.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
6 THE SECRETARY: Establish a
7 moratorium on state regulations, establish a
8 working task force.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
11 Explanation has been asked for. Senator
12 Johnson.
13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Lay aside.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
15 bill aside.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 520, by Senator Maltese, Senate Bill Number
18 3304, Education Law, in relation to instruction
19 in the display, use and proper respect for the
20 flag.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
22 section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3100
1 act shall take effect -
2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explana
3 tion.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: An
5 explanation has been asked for by Senator
6 Montgomery.
7 Senator Maltese.
8 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes, Mr.
9 President. This bill is an act to amend the
10 Education Law in relation to instruction in
11 display, use and proper respect for the flag.
12 The bill requires the instruction
13 of the proper respect, and the way that it seeks
14 to do so is to incorporate sections 170 to 177
15 of Title 36 of the United States Code as part of
16 our Education Law.
17 The -- the present Education Law
18 does not provide for a minimum as far as what
19 instruction on proper respect shall be, and an
20 inquiry to the New York City Board of Education
21 and the New York State Department of Education
22 indicated that they do not have a set curriculum
23 as to what shall be included in said instruction
3101
1 that's presently in the Education Law.
2 Mr. President, this bill was -
3 was debated last year and passed this house by a
4 vote of 59 to 1 with one absence.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Jones.
7 SENATOR JONES: Mr. President,
8 would the sponsor yield to a question?
9 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 sponsor yields.
12 SENATOR JONES: Are you saying,
13 Senator Maltese, that you have evidence that
14 this is not occurring now in schools?
15 SENATOR MALTESE: Well, my office
16 -- no, not that -- not that -- not that it's
17 not occurring. What we have ascertained is that
18 they had no curriculum and no mandate. For
19 instance, we contacted a Mr. Bob Turta of the
20 New York City Schools Board of Education. He
21 indicated that they had no set curriculum as far
22 as the instruction and a Joann Larson of the
23 Department of Education who said that, while the
3102
1 instruction of patriotism and citizenship is
2 required, there is no specific flag or national
3 anthem instruction as indicated by the Election
4 Law.
5 SENATOR JONES: On the bill, Mr.
6 President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Jones on the bill.
9 SENATOR JONES: I would like, I
10 guess, certainly to speak in defense of the
11 teachers in Monroe County, having come from 26
12 years in the educational system. Clearly, this
13 is going on and many, many hours are devoted to
14 this, and I certainly would not be against it,
15 but I think I just need to make the point that a
16 lot of instruction goes on about the flag from
17 kindergarten on, through all of our schools and
18 if it's missing in New York City, I'm certainly
19 sorry about that.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Montgomery.
22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. Would
23 Senator Maltese yield for a question?
3103
1 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Maltese, do you yield? He does.
4 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator, I
5 note that your bill directs the state Ed.
6 Department to develop this. Did this request
7 come from state Ed., I'm just curious?
8 SENATOR MALTESE: The original
9 request for the bill? My record doesn't
10 indicate that, Senator.
11 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: O.K. I have
12 spoken to state Ed. regarding other kinds of
13 curriculum issues, and whenever they have to
14 develop a new curriculum, they generally need
15 more funding. So I'm just wondering, is there
16 any -- I don't see any funding attached to your
17 -- any fiscal indication over here at least
18 that's not on my file.
19 I don't know if you -- if this
20 requires more funding or if this -- if they will
21 just do this out of their current funds, and how
22 does this relate to the social studies
23 curriculum that they're now in the process of
3104
1 revising, the curriculum of inclusion and all of
2 that?
3 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
4 in response to Senator Montgomery's question, we
5 indicated that it would have no fiscal impact
6 since it would seem that this simply provides a
7 guide to the teachers and the school districts
8 as to what should be included in the
9 curriculum.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Montgomery.
12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr.
13 President, I have just one further question for
14 Senator Maltese.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 yields.
17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: We're now
18 talking about a curriculum that tries to
19 inculcate many different cultures and nations
20 and groups, and I'm just wondering if your flag
21 -- if you intend for this to be part of a move
22 to try to enlarge our -- our understanding of
23 other nations, other cultures? Will we be
3105
1 talking about the flag of Puerto Rico, the flag
2 of Mexico, you know, the flag as it rerelates to
3 the United Nations, and do you intend for this
4 to be more than just a very small curriculum
5 dedicated to simply the American flag or is this
6 part of a larger agenda to be included with the
7 expansion of the social studies curriculum that
8 the state Ed. is involved in?
9 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
10 I didn't have that in mind when -- originally
11 when I sponsored the bill, and it seems to me
12 that an education in social studies or history
13 or geography in some cases, knowledge of other
14 countries, is very important, like -- and
15 certainly our boards of education should include
16 such studies.
17 At the same time, I believe we
18 have an obligation to teach in our country
19 schools, the -- about the United States flag and
20 the proper respect and traditions of the United
21 States flag and about the Pledge of Allegiance
22 and the manner of delivery, the National Anthem,
23 the proper response to the Star Spangled
3106
1 Banner.
2 It seems to me that evidence
3 indicates that at many social events and sports
4 events giving the benefit of the doubt to many
5 of the people that are present at these events
6 that they do not act in a proper manner of
7 respect for our country's flag. So I guess
8 that's a round-about way of saying that I don't
9 think this would be at all harmful. I think
10 it's an important building block or foundation
11 block, but this bill addresses itself only to
12 our country's flag, but I certainly would have
13 no personal objection to an extension in any of
14 those courses to teach about the flags of other
15 countries in addition to the teaching of the
16 respect for our flag.
17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you,
18 Senator.
19 Mr. President, just briefly on
20 the bill.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Montgomery, on the bill.
23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I think that
3107
1 Senator Maltese has made an extremely important
2 note for our record of his support for teaching
3 about flags internationally, and I certainly
4 would like to offer that we include that, extend
5 the bill at some point, amend it to include that
6 -- that idea and that concept, and with that I
7 will vote for the bill because I'm certainly not
8 opposed to teaching about the American flag, but
9 I do want to make sure that we're not narrowing
10 our focus and understanding as it relates to
11 young people, but rather broadening it so that
12 they begin to have an appreciation and
13 understanding of other nations in this world.
14 Thank you, Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Smith.
17 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 Would Senator Maltese yield for a
20 question?
21 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
22 SENATOR SMITH: Senator Maltese,
23 since this is the state of New York and we're
3108
1 teaching about the American flag, will there be
2 some provisions in this curriculum to deal with
3 the placement of the state flag versus the
4 American flag?
5 SENATOR MALTESE: Well, Mr.
6 President, I believe that the U. S. Code refers
7 only to the placement of the United States flag,
8 but it does at the same time refer to, and I'll
9 use the term advisedly, subordinate flags which
10 would be flags of states, and it would refer to
11 them. So the instruction would not zero in on
12 the placement or respect for the flag of New
13 York State, but simply concentrates on the flag
14 of the United States.
15 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Dollinger.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
19 President, will the sponsor yield for a
20 question?
21 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 sponsor yields.
3109
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I
2 guess I'm intrigued by the answer that you gave
3 earlier that there is as no fiscal impact of
4 this bill. There's no anticipated fiscal
5 impact.
6 SENATOR MALTESE: There's no
7 anticipated fiscal impact, no.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. But
9 someone, as I understand it, as I read the bill
10 the Commissioner of Education is going to have
11 to revise the curriculum; isn't that correct?
12 SENATOR MALTESE: My
13 understanding is that the curriculum, Mr.
14 President, that the curriculum itself already
15 includes areas that this would fit into without
16 a revision of the curriculum, and this wording
17 would incorporate completely the wording of the
18 United States Code, so it would be available and
19 possibly to many social studies teachers in
20 history and social studies at this point would
21 already be part of their instruction.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, if the
23 speaker -- the sponsor would yield to one other
3110
1 question?
2 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He does.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is it my
5 understanding, Senator, that this is already
6 mandated by federal law; is that correct, by the
7 United States Code?
8 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. This
9 portion, as it relates to the United States
10 flag.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So all of our
12 school districts are required to do this by
13 federal law and all we're doing is duplicating
14 then the federal law, is that correct?
15 SENATOR MALTESE: I think the
16 problem is, Mr. President, that while we have
17 specifically in our Education Law the, if you
18 would, mandate to provide instruction, that
19 mandate does not include the specific
20 instruction, and I believe in the U.S. Code,
21 this would be simply a guide to follow for
22 proper respect of the flag rather than a mandate
23 on local education departments.
3111
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But is it my
2 understanding, again through you, Mr. President,
3 if the Senator would yield.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Dollinger. He will yield.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It's my
7 understanding we're taking the federal guideline
8 and turning it into a mandate because we're
9 requiring the Commissioner to do it in this
10 case.
11 SENATOR MALTESE: All we're
12 requiring the Commissioner to do is include this
13 in the instruction that he would give as a
14 curriculum guide to the teachers and local
15 school districts.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And again
17 through you, Mr. President, one other question.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 continues to yield.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What would
21 the consequence be, Senator, if the school
22 districts did not follow the curriculum
23 guideline or mandate set out by the Commissioner
3112
1 of Education?
2 SENATOR MALTESE: I -- Mr.
3 President, I don't know of any consequence. I
4 don't know that we should include this as under
5 the Penal Law or make it a misdemeanor. I don't
6 know whether I would be for that, but I do
7 believe that we in the Legislature have a duty
8 and an obligation to set certain guidelines,
9 certain norms for respect for our country's flag
10 and this is a better way than most to do it.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Dollinger.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One quick
14 comment.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the
16 bill.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I agree with
18 Senator Maltese that this is a good mandate, but
19 it's a mandate nonetheless. We're telling our
20 school districts what to do. As I see it, we're
21 ordering the Commissioner to do some more work
22 over in the Department of Education, that little
23 building across the street that many people in
3113
1 this chamber may feel is filled with too many
2 people already. We are going to tell them to do
3 more. We are going to tell our school districts
4 to do more. We're going to tell them to revise
5 the curriculum. We're going to tell them to
6 spend local taxpayer dollars to do it.
7 It may be wise in this case. I'm
8 going to vote for it. But I'm going to point
9 out that we passed a bill earlier that said no
10 more unfunded mandates. My suggestion is that
11 this is one under a guise of no fiscal impact of
12 actually having a fiscal impact. I think in
13 this case, and I agree with Senator Maltese it's
14 probably well warranted because of the important
15 civic lesson that underlies it, but don't think
16 for a second that it isn't a mandate.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Markowitz.
19 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Senator
20 Maltese, I just have a question to ask of you.
21 The American flag represents an
22 awful lot to -- to most residents of our
23 country. Does the American flag -- would you
3114
1 agree that the American flag represents the
2 collective contributions of our forebears?
3 SENATOR MALTESE: Sure.
4 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: And the flag
5 not only represents the best of our past but
6 also represents the challenge of tomorrow; I
7 think you'd probably agree with that statement?
8 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
9 Senator Markowitz waxes eloquent.
10 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Let me ask
11 you a question. With the proper instruction in
12 the classrooms and a beautiful flag, with 50
13 kids in a classroom that can hardly hear their
14 teachers, with classroom space being destroyed
15 or in a terrible condition, decrepid condition,
16 in cold classrooms with inadequate teachers,
17 inadequate supervision, with inadequate
18 supplies, do you think that the flag is being
19 presented in the best way for the learning of
20 the children under conditions that exist today
21 in the city of New York, for instance?
22 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
23 if Senator Markowitz chooses the introduction of
3115
1 this bill as a vehicle to point to the fact that
2 there are inadequacies and inequities in our
3 city of New York, in our state of New York and
4 in our educational system, I applaud it and I
5 would agree that there certainly are
6 inadequacies and certainly inequities as far as
7 our educational system is concerned.
8 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Thank you,
9 Senator, really, and I appreciate it.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Markowitz, on the bill.
12 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: I appreciate
13 Senator Maltese raising or responding to some of
14 the concerns I had. I'd like to see the same
15 passion, Senator, that I see occasionally from
16 you, flashes of your passion as it relates to
17 upholding yesterday, and I'd like to hear that
18 same passion exhibited for tomorrow, and that is
19 that while the teaching of respect for the flag
20 is certainly important, it is no more important
21 than many other issues confronting education
22 today.
23 In fact, I would tell you that I
3116
1 can think of many other issues that, if our
2 society was able to provide the kind of
3 education that the children of our city and
4 state need so desperately, in fact we owe them
5 so very, very much, that the respect for the
6 flag would be enhanced perhaps even without a
7 mandate to the various school districts to have
8 to do. It would be something that would come
9 from the heart.
10 I really believe that, something
11 that they would be eager to do, but it seems to
12 me I hope that Senator Maltese and those of you
13 who have a very similar opinion as exemplified
14 by this bill will also in the coming months on
15 the floor of the Senate talk about some of the
16 real concerns, and I mean that, Senator, the
17 real concerns and challenges facing education,
18 particularly in many of our districts throughout
19 our city and state, the real needs which this
20 bill unfortunately doesn't even begin to talk
21 about.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 DeFrancisco.
3117
1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: A couple
2 points in response to some of the questions.
3 Senator Jones mentioned that
4 Rochester does these things admirably. I just
5 want to mention that there is still a need for
6 this because we had a situation in one of the
7 high schools in Syracuse where some students
8 chose to sit for the Pledge of Allegiance to the
9 flag. Others choose to pledge, which I guess is
10 part of what the Constitution, at least the
11 interpretation of the Constitution requires.
12 However, there was some disrup
13 tion or there was a difficulty that one group
14 was in some way mocking the other group and the
15 response from the school district, or at least
16 that principal, was to suspend the Pledge of
17 Allegiance to the Flag.
18 Now, I'm not quite sure whether
19 that's the appropriate approach, so I think that
20 if we're reaffirming this by this legislation it
21 might send a message to those who might
22 otherwise take it more lightly than it should
23 be.
3118
1 As far as the flag of Puerto Rico
2 and the flag of Mexico and the flag of whomever
3 else, I think the fact of this legislation isn't
4 to teach social studies. I mean that's another
5 curriculum. This is -- happens to be the United
6 States where we all live, and I think that that
7 was the intent of it, to show respect for the
8 flag of our country. We can always educate on
9 every other country and show respect in other
10 ways and teach about other countries, but I
11 think that missed the point of this
12 legislation.
13 As far as fiscal implications,
14 with all the talents we have at the state board,
15 State Department of Education and with the very
16 few items here on this list that would have to
17 develop, be developed into a curriculum, I can't
18 imagine that there would be any fiscal
19 implication, and it would be any labor
20 whatsoever for anybody, even in this room to
21 take ten minutes out to establish a curriculum.
22 So I can't imagine where there truly is a fiscal
23 implication.
3119
1 This isn't the mandate that we're
2 trying to stop, this type of mandate. It's the
3 one that costs money. We've got plenty of
4 talent to do this type of legislation, so I rise
5 in support of it.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Connor.
9 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
10 President.
11 I'm certainly going to support
12 this legislation, Senator Maltese, but let me
13 say I -- maybe I'm old-fashioned and
14 conservative. Some of -- some subjects of
15 instruction, I think, are best done in the
16 family, by the family, and I think the kind of
17 respect and etiquette toward the flag ought to
18 be taught, even families ought to be encouraged
19 to teach their children, and I find today unlike
20 many, many years ago, many, many adults who
21 really don't, and I don't think they mean to be
22 deliberately disrespectful and certainly don't
23 have conscientious objections, but they really
3120
1 don't know what flag etiquette is.
2 I have noticed something in my
3 years in public life. Our colleagues who serve
4 in the U. S. Congress, and I'm talking about
5 various events where they start with the
6 National Anthem or the flag goes by with the
7 parade, they seem to know what the proper
8 etiquette is and it would not surprise me to
9 find out, and I don't know that when one is
10 elected to Congress as part of their orientation
11 that perhaps as the United States officials,
12 they are given some guidance on what proper flag
13 etiquette is.
14 Regrettably, in this very city of
15 Albany as well as throughout the state at
16 various public events, I find there are public
17 officials, local and state, who do not accord
18 the proper respect to the flag according to the
19 rules of etiquette with respect to the flag and
20 I always chalk that up to ignorance that perhaps
21 people don't know they're supposed to salute the
22 flag when it passes by the reviewing stand, when
23 all the elected officials and mayors and what
3121
1 have you are up there on the stand or perhaps
2 they don't know that at certain times you salute
3 the flag and not just stand at attention and
4 they don't know how to salute the flag when not
5 in a uniform, and these are all set standards
6 and I think it's admirable.
7 I suspect though, Senator
8 Maltese, that perhaps in your bill, I can not
9 imagine that the law presently mandates a daily
10 salute to the flag and pledge of allegiance and
11 I can't imagine and, you know, I've been
12 surprised before, but it's difficult for me to
13 imagine a teacher that would lead a class in the
14 salute to the flag and the recitation of the
15 pledge that wouldn't concurrently instruct the
16 students on the proper behavior doing that, and
17 I -- I don't address those who are conscientious
18 objectors. I respect their rights and I've
19 actually seen on some occasions when I think the
20 person who, because of a religious conviction,
21 refrains from saluting the flag is being far
22 more respectful in quietly sitting in place not
23 talking, not disturbing anyone else, than some
3122
1 of the people who stood but chatted with their
2 neighbor or whatever during the National Anthem
3 or during a presentation of the colors.
4 So the legislation is good, but I
5 just wish we could educate adults more. I
6 suspect that's just because there is no public
7 service effort on -- in the media to inform a
8 generation or two of adults of what the proper
9 behavior is. I really don't think, when they
10 are disrespectful, they mean to be. I think
11 it's ignorance, so perhaps some more instruction
12 in schools will be a good thing.
13 I just remind my colleagues that
14 very often people in positions such as ours in
15 our state do set the example at a parade or a
16 dinner or an event and, if we set a poor
17 example, in fact we can't expect children or
18 adults to accord the proper respect to the
19 flag.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Stachowski.
22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Would
23 Senator Connor yield to a question?
3123
1 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly,
2 Senator.
3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Senator, did
4 you know there is a gentleman whose job it is to
5 travel with a large flag that's basically kept
6 in a container the year round and he goes to a
7 number of special events each year and when he
8 goes with this large flag and they present it in
9 public, he goes through a whole speech on proper
10 etiquette on the flag and why people should
11 remain standing during the entire National
12 Anthem, and why it's so offensive when, at
13 sporting events, people start cheering part way
14 through the National Anthem, and what the
15 reasoning is for why they should wait until the
16 whole anthem is finished before they start
17 cheering? Did you -- were you aware of this?
18 SENATOR CONNOR: No, I wasn't,
19 Senator, and I think we could, taking your word
20 for the existence of such a person, I think we
21 could use dozens more.
22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: But there is
23 such a person, and he travels throughout the
3124
1 country stopping at X amount of stops through
2 out the year, and the flag when it's not
3 traveling with him, is kept stored in a very
4 magnificent wooden box, that's stored on Old
5 Ironsides in Boston and an interesting fact and
6 in honor of your passing this bill, Senator
7 Maltese, you may like to invite this gentleman
8 to either Albany or to your district and have
9 him, you know, get permission to put this large
10 flag up and go through his whole presentation so
11 that not only the children who would be
12 fortunate enough to take this class but maybe
13 some of the adults in your district that forgot
14 and maybe didn't teach their children and,
15 therefore, the need for this about saluting the
16 flag, they didn't teach them at home, so that
17 they can rekindle those memories and learn again
18 why all this etiquette and flag etiquette should
19 be done. Thank you.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Gold.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Would Senator
23 DeFrancisco yield to one question?
3125
1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Sure.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 does yield.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I really
5 didn't understand your analogy. Apparently
6 there is a school in Syracuse where there was
7 some dispute or whatever and the principal, you
8 say, suspended the pledge. Is it your
9 understanding that, if this bill becomes law,
10 that that will mandate that the principal re
11 store the pledge to the school?
12 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: No, not at
13 all, Mr. President.
14 I think the point was made by
15 Senator Jones that we already do this in schools
16 in Rochester and the proper etiquette and the
17 proper teaching is taking place and I gave that
18 as an example to show that I don't believe that
19 some teachers, at least in the district that I'm
20 in, know the proper response when there is a
21 situation pertaining to this type of event, and
22 I think that was the wrong response and had
23 there been teaching and a curriculum, maybe that
3126
1 teacher would have known the proper response.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
3 section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect on the 180th day after it
6 shall have become law.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
12 is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 537, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number
15 1432, General Municipal Law and the Town Law.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Will the
17 Senator yield to a question?
18 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
20 bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 543, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 2557,
23 an act to amend the General Municipal Law.
3127
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
2 section.
3 Explanation has been asked for.
4 Senator Spano.
5 SENATOR SPANO: Mr. President,
6 this bill amends the General Municipal Law. It
7 requires that residents -- it would give -- the
8 residents would have an opportunity to have some
9 input into the closure and into the removal and
10 relocation of a fire department or fire company
11 by requiring that a municipality in the state
12 would have to give a 60-day public notice and a
13 public hearing.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Last
15 section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59, nays one,
22 Senator DeFrancisco recorded in the negative.
23
3128
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 548, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number 2957,
5 to legalize and validate the issuance of certain
6 bond anticipation notes.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Senator yield to a
8 question?
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
10 a home rule message. Lay the bill aside.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 561, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number
13 2659, an act to amend the Tax Law.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
15 last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
23 is passed.
3129
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 568, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number -
3 (There was a pause in the
4 proceedings. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 568, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 4156.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Cook.
9 Senator Present.
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
11 for today.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
13 bill aside for the day.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 569, by Senator Cook.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
17 for the day.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay it
19 aside for the day.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 573, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 3588,
22 an act to amend the Executive Law, in relation
23 to discretionary release on parole.
3130
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
2 bill aside for the day.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 578, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 4387,
5 authorize the Commissioner of Environmental
6 Conservation to lease certain state land.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Can we have one
8 day on this?
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay it
11 aside for the day.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
13 may we stand at ease for a moment.
14 (Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the
15 Senate was at ease. )
16 (Whereupon, at 8:15 p.m., Senate
17 reconvened. )
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate
19 will come to order.
20 Senator Present.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
22 I would like to call an immediate meeting of the
23 Rules Committee in Room 433A. Room 433A,
3131
1 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
3 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
4 Committee in Room 433A. Room 433A.
5 Senate will stand at ease.
6 (Whereupon, at 8:15 p.m., the
7 Senate was at ease. )
8 (Whereupon, at 9:20 p.m., Senate
9 reconvened. )
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate
11 will come to order.
12 Senator Present.
13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
14 may we have a report from a standing committee.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We have a
16 report at the desk.
17 Secretary will read.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino,
19 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
20 following Senate resolution for immediate
21 adoption: Senate Resolution Number 1272, by
22 Senator Marino and others, declaring the
23 invitation by the Assembly to a joint session
3132
1 for the purpose of filling a vacancy in the
2 Office of State Comptroller to be without
3 foundation in law and to declare any actions
4 purported to be taken pursuant thereto to be
5 null, void and without legal effect.
6 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Explanation.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Direct to
8 third reading.
9 Explanation has been asked for.
10 Senator Marino.
11 SENATOR MARINO: Mr. President.
12 As I'm sure the members of this house can
13 attest, I have a great deal of respect for the
14 presiding officer of this house and, of course,
15 my good friend and colleague on the other side
16 of this house, the Speaker of the Assembly, but
17 what is about to happen tomorrow, at least from
18 what I have been told by the Speaker, at 10:30
19 a.m. either a session or a meeting is going to
20 take place to appoint a Comptroller of the state
21 of New York; and should that happen, that
22 session or meeting would be clearly illegal and
23 improper since it does not take into
3133
1 consideration the will of the majority of the
2 elected officials of this house.
3 Notice by the Lieutenant Governor
4 and the Speaker by themselves is insufficient as
5 a matter of law to convene any kind of a session
6 or meeting between these two houses. We raised
7 this problem during the period of
8 reapportionment, you may recall, when the
9 Lieutenant Governor took it upon himself to
10 accept process on behalf of the Majority, and
11 more will be said about that at a future date.
12 Despite all of that and despite
13 the embarrassment of having to receive in my
14 mail this notice about a meeting of my house
15 with the Assembly from Stan Lundine and Saul
16 Weprin, we contacted the Speaker and said, We
17 don't want to upset the apple cart. We want to
18 talk about this. Maybe we can do it legally.
19 Now, we understand, Mr. Speaker,
20 that you have proposed a constitutional
21 amendment to cure the defects in the present law
22 regarding how a Comptroller or Attorney General
23 would be appointed in the future, and we
3134
1 understand that you would like a board rather
2 than a sole trustee to make decisions concerning
3 the pension rights of workers in this state, and
4 we agree. We may not agree on language, but we
5 agree that something on that nature has to be
6 done, and we would like to discuss it, and we'd
7 do it now. So we'd be willing to sit down and
8 discuss these matters, these bills with you, if
9 you'll give us more time until Monday to get to
10 this, and then we would join you on a concurrent
11 resolution on this very subject.
12 The Speaker said no, he would not
13 consider it even though it was his idea and even
14 though he proposed it, on both those issues.
15 How did I know this meeting was going to take
16 place tomorrow? Because I got a call Monday
17 afternoon and was advised. Not told that we
18 would discuss it but was advised that the
19 meeting would take place at 10:30 on Wednesday
20 morning and that the Assembly was going to pass
21 a resolution to that effect.
22 This is a shabby way, Mr.
23 President, to deal with the Majority in this
3135
1 house, and I resent the fact that the presiding
2 officer of this house has again taken it upon
3 himself to speak for all of us without legal
4 authority. We have been very reasonable. We
5 have discussed and tried to make the Assembly
6 understand that the people should have a voice
7 in a matter as important as electing a
8 Comptroller for the state of New York.
9 Certainly we do it in special elections for
10 Assemblymen, for state Senators. Why not for
11 Comptrollers and Attorney Generals in this
12 state?
13 So our position is a reasonable
14 one. There is always the possibility, beyond
15 this appointment, that the Attorney General of
16 this state might decide to resign for some
17 reason and we would have to deal with that, and
18 it seemed important to us that we cure the
19 defects in the system now. We've all talked
20 about a board to deal with the $50 million in
21 pension funds. We have a four-member board, the
22 Assembly has a thirteen-member board, but we
23 have all agreed that having one single person
3136
1 make these important decisions was wrong. So to
2 suggest that we discuss a new approach seems to
3 me is reasonable.
4 To suggest, Mr. President, that
5 to give us one week from the time that a nominee
6 has been suggested to us, namely Monday, to
7 discuss these changes, these important changes
8 on behalf of the people of this state, seems
9 reasonable to me, Mr. President. We take longer
10 to discuss the nominees for board of trustees of
11 hospitals in this house, and we are discussing
12 the appointment of the Comptroller of the state
13 of New York.
14 So we feel that we've been very
15 responsible. We feel that we have set forth
16 bills that are reasonable, and we feel that it's
17 unconscionable for the Speaker to say, "It's my
18 way or no way," and that's what he's done.
19 The newspapers have been
20 reporting that it's one person making this
21 appointment, and that the Democrats have agreed
22 to a unit rule here. Whoever it is that the
23 Speaker wants that's who it's going to be, and
3137
1 it's going to be unanimous because, God forbid,
2 we permit Republicans into the process. Okay.
3 If that's the way it's going to be, we say let's
4 try to improve on a process that is flawed, that
5 you accept as flawed, that we accept as flawed,
6 for the future. And we're told, "No way."
7 Historically, I would point out
8 that four times in the history of this state a
9 Comptroller has been appointed, a statewide
10 officer has been appointed, since 1849, by
11 concurrent resolution of both houses. That does
12 not exist as we convene here this evening. We
13 do not have a concurrent resolution agreed upon
14 by both houses. We won't have at 10:30 tomorrow
15 morning; and, therefore, any meeting at 10:30
16 tomorrow morning is illegal and improper to
17 appoint a Comptroller of this great state.
18 We can cure this defect, but the
19 Speaker doesn't care to listen. And,
20 unfortunately, we have to drag the process out
21 because of his intransigence, and I regret
22 that. I would like to see an orderly process.
23 We're not permitted to have an orderly process.
3138
1 And so, Mr. President, I suggest
2 that what's best for the people of this state is
3 that the process go forward legally, that it be
4 done by concurrent resolution of both houses,
5 and that we as a house be given an opportunity
6 which we have not had -- I'll say it again -
7 which we have not had to discuss the rules for
8 such an election. Who shall be nominated? How
9 shall a vote be taken? How long can people
10 speak on such an important matter? None of
11 these matters have been discussed by the Speaker
12 and I, nor have I been given the opportunity to
13 discuss the rules for such a gathering, and all
14 we have asked is for an opportunity to discuss
15 the rules and regulations that would go into
16 such a session and the opportunity to pass
17 meaningful legislation that both houses have
18 said is needed.
19 And so we will not permit, Mr.
20 President, as a precedent the Speaker and the
21 Lieutenant Governor to get together and convene
22 a session or meeting of these houses because
23 it's illegal. It's unconstitutional. It's
3139
1 improper. It's embarrassing to this great
2 house. It's uncalled for, and it's
3 unreasonable.
4 For that reason, and all of the
5 aforesaid reasons, Mr. President, I suggest that
6 we immediately pass this resolution.
7 Thank you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Marchi on the resolution.
10 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President.
11 The opportunity to address issues that were
12 adequately spread on the record concerning
13 aspects that are associated with the
14 responsibilities that will be entrusted to the
15 successor Comptroller in a -- if this was a more
16 fortuitous opportunity offered to all of us to
17 engage in the kind of productive dialogue
18 addressing those very issues that have been
19 recognized by the Assembly already by their own
20 statements and their own positions and by the
21 general consensus that this is something that
22 should be addressed, to ask that this -- now
23 that we have this focus, this opportunity, that
3140
1 this is an ideal circumstance to present the
2 resolution, to present the full array of
3 considerations that will go with the conduct of
4 this office. It does not affect the voting
5 power of anybody. The vote will be taken and
6 the candidate -- the candidates that are
7 presented and command the majority of both
8 houses will be our next Comptroller.
9 But to seize an opportunity and
10 urge this as being a very fortunate starting
11 point for the resolution of the larger issues
12 that are involved should not be taken as a
13 lesser respect. I would say that this is a
14 finer respect and a stronger interest in
15 approaching the entire problem associated with
16 the action that is going to be undertaken, and I
17 just will review very briefly the sections of
18 this resolution.
19 Whereas,... the Legislature shall
20 provide for the filling of vacancies in the
21 Office of Comptroller and Attorney General.
22 Whereas, Public Officers Law
23 section 41 provides, "When a vacancy occurs or
3141
1 exists, other than by removal, in the Office of
2 Comptroller or Attorney General, or a
3 resignation of either such officer to take
4 effect at any future day shall have been made
5 while the Legislature is in session, the two
6 houses..." -- the two houses, Mr. President. It
7 doesn't say the members of the Legislature. It
8 says the two houses, and we all know or we
9 should know by this time that the two houses
10 consist of the Senate and the Assembly. We all
11 know that. So that we are saying in a shorthand
12 fashion two houses, the Senate and the Assembly,
13 "... by joint ballot shall appoint a person to
14 fill such actual or prospective vacancy."
15 This is the constitution of the
16 state of New York, and I'm sure that all of us
17 want to honor that obligation under the
18 constitution. I don't think there is anyone in
19 this chamber that has a feeling different than
20 what is proscribed by the Public Officers
21 Section 41.
22 Section 9 of the constitution
23 provides, "Each house shall determine the rules
3142
1 of its own proceedings."
2 How do I know if somebody comes
3 in, "The sergeant-at-arms from the Assembly said
4 come on over, we're having a meeting"? We have
5 to have an auspices under which we can attend
6 the meeting in a responsible capacity, and we
7 don't have this if anybody can just throw out a
8 resolution.
9 Now, the Lieutenant Governor, for
10 whom I have great respect, certainly is not the
11 Senate -- is not the auspices under which we can
12 respond. This has -- all of us have this
13 institutional feeling, and I'm sure if you folks
14 were in the majority you would also sustain that
15 point of view. That's why we are now -- we are
16 now considering the dignity and the
17 responsibility that each house has; and once we
18 recognize that, then we have to recognize that
19 we have to provide an auspices that is reliable,
20 that proceeds from our own organization, our own
21 structure. And we don't have it by a Lieutenant
22 Governor, not because the Lieutenant Governor is
23 a person to be demeaned. No. He is an honorable
3143
1 person, and he occupies a very important office,
2 but it is not the product of this house. The
3 product of this house is the Majority, the
4 Temporary President of the Senate, and this is
5 the structure by which we operate.
6 "Whereas, a majority vote of all
7 the members elected to the Senate adopting a
8 concurrent resolutions necessary to convene a
9 joint session or meeting of the Legislature,"
10 which has been our practice sanctioned over one
11 hundred years going right back to before the -
12 up to -- well, more than a century. We're going
13 back to the Civil War days.
14 "Such concurrent resolution has
15 not been adopted by the Senate; and.
16 "Whereas, notice by the
17 Lieutenant Governor and the Speaker of the
18 Assembly are by themselves insufficient as a
19 matter of law to convene such joint session or
20 meeting; now, therefore, be it.
21 "Resolved, that the New York
22 State Senate does hereby deem and declare the
23 invitation by the New York State Assembly to a
3144
1 joint session or meeting for the purpose of
2 filling a vacancy in the Office of State
3 Comptroller to be without foundation in law."
4 How can it be argued on any other
5 basis? Are we being invited there under the law
6 that we know, under the auspices and the
7 organization that brings us all together as one
8 family? No, we're not. And you can digress to
9 other issues, and I would hope that this is an
10 opportunity that we seize for further dialogue
11 to produce a considered responsible consensus.
12 We've done that in so many different budgets.
13 We've done that through the years, each
14 upholding our own responsibility not as a loyal
15 opposition. We have never been a loyal
16 opposition in this house. We have been part of
17 the governance of this state, and we've acted
18 concurrently. We've acted concurrently with the
19 Assembly and with the Governor as part of that
20 responsibility.
21 So we hold a coordinate
22 responsibility, and we are not in the position
23 of a loyal opposition. I was in the loyal
3145
1 opposition for one year in 1965, but we also had
2 an institutional responsibility, and it was
3 honored then as you have always honored it, and
4 hope you will honor it tonight because I believe
5 that you feel that it is right to honor it in
6 that fashion.
7 "That the New York State Senate
8 does hereby deem and declare that any session or
9 meeting held by the Assembly on May 5, 1993 for
10 the purpose of appointing a Comptroller to fill
11 a vacancy in such office, and at which fewer
12 than a majority of the members of the Senate
13 elected to attend, is without legal authority to
14 fill such vacancy or meeting; and be it further.
15 "Resolved, that any action taken
16 by such session or meeting which purports to
17 elect a person to fill a vacancy in the Office
18 of the Comptroller by a joint ballot shall be
19 null and void without legal effect, and any
20 purported acts taken by such person shall be
21 without any legal effect; and be it.
22 "Resolved, that the Secretary of
23 State is notified that any action to file any
3146
1 document naming a person elected by such session
2 or meeting recording such person as Comptroller
3 of the state of New York is null, void and
4 without legal effect; and
5 "That a copy of this resolution,
6 suitably engrossed, be transmitted to the
7 Lieutenant Governor, the Speaker of the
8 Assembly, the Clerk of the Assembly, and the
9 Secretary of State."
10 Mr. President, there is no
11 alternative to this. There is an abundant area
12 for intelligent dialogue and input on the
13 questions that -- the collateral questions that
14 are so basic to the efficient functioning of
15 that office, and which have both been recognized
16 in this house and in the other house. But
17 attendance tomorrow at this will be an act of
18 futility, of no purpose, because it is in
19 defiance of the constitution which requires two
20 houses, both houses -- both houses, Senate and
21 Assembly. And unless you have an institutional
22 presence, you do not have a valid and
23 constitutional act.
3147
1 So I would hope that we seize
2 this opportunity to reassert the responsibility
3 that we have as Senators and support in concept
4 and with our vote here tonight that we are not
5 going to be tread upon in this fashion, also
6 contemporaneously extending a hand of
7 cooperation to be seized by all of us in both
8 houses of this Capitol, at both ends of the
9 hall, seized to resolve some of these questions
10 that are collateral and so significant to the
11 efficient and effective operation of the Office
12 of Comptroller.
13 Mr. President. I move the
14 adoption of this resolution.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Ohrenstein.
17 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Would
18 Senator Marino yield?
19 SENATOR MARINO: Sure.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Marino, do you yield? Senator yields.
22 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: I'm
23 interested in your assertion that we can not
3148
1 meet in joint session or for the purpose of a
2 "joint ballot," to be more accurate, without a
3 concurrent resolution, and that it would be
4 illegal to convene without a concurrent
5 resolution. What is your authority for that
6 assertion?
7 SENATOR MARINO: As I've
8 indicated, Senator, on four occasions where
9 vacancies have existed in statewide offices in
10 New York beginning with a vacancy in I believe
11 it was 1849 -- yes -- in the office of
12 Comptroller, Millard Fillmore. You might
13 recognize that name. That was done by
14 concurrent resolution of both houses. And when
15 Louis Lefkowitz was appointed, that was done by
16 concurrent resolution of both houses. That was,
17 I believe, the latest time when a vacancy was
18 filled and two other occasions, on all
19 occasions.
20 So, historically -- since the
21 wording is a bit vague, historically, we have
22 done it by concurrent resolutions; and the fact
23 that the Speaker has passed a concurrent
3149
1 resolution indicates to me that he believes it
2 should be done by concurrent resolution. But,
3 certainly, the way you are trying to do it is to
4 get around that very fact. Every year, when we
5 meet in joint session to listen to the Governor,
6 it's done by concurrent resolution. The same
7 applies to the Board of Regents. We go over
8 there, and we meet, and it's always by some
9 action of this house. But also by an action of
10 the majority of this house. That hasn't been
11 done here. I suggest to you that historically
12 and by practice, if for no other reason, we can
13 not have a session without the concurrent
14 resolution of both houses.
15 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Well,
16 Senator Marino, are you aware that on March 11,
17 1975, the -- there was a joint session to elect
18 a Regent -
19 SENATOR MARINO: Well, that -
20 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Just -- may
21 I finish? May I finish the question?
22 SENATOR MARINO: Sure.
23 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: -- in which
3150
1 there was no concurrent resolution?
2 SENATOR MARINO: Yes, because the
3 Regents -- there is specific language regarding
4 Regents that is different, but it requires an
5 action of this house.
6 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: What is the
7 difference in the language?
8 SENATOR MARINO: The language? If
9 you will give me the section -- read the
10 section, and we'll see.
11 It says that on a certain day we
12 shall meet, Senator. It directs us to meet on a
13 certain particular day. And it says if you
14 don't meet by that day, another day will be put.
15 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: And who
16 would convene such a meeting? Who would convene
17 such a meeting?
18 SENATOR MARINO: It could be
19 anyone.
20 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Do you mean
21 the law happens by spontaneity?
22 SENATOR MARINO: The law outlines
23 the procedure.
3151
1 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: No, it
2 doesn't. It says the Legislature -- this is on
3 the Regents. It says the Legislature -- where
4 is it? "Then the two houses shall meet in joint
5 session."
6 SENATOR MARINO: That's a
7 different provision, Senator. It says anybody
8 can do it providing a proper notice is given to
9 the Legislature. It says that.
10 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: That's not
11 what the law says, Senator Marino. Senator
12 Marino, the law with regard to the Regents says
13 that the Legislature shall meet in joint session
14 at noon on the second Tuesday of such a month.
15 Okay -
16 SENATOR MARINO: I said that. It
17 gives you a specific date, yes.
18 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Yes. And
19 who calls that session to order?
20 SENATOR MARINO: Anybody, I
21 assume, can call it.
22 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: I don't -
23 well -
3152
1 SENATOR MARINO: But that's the
2 Regents, Senator. That's not the Comptroller of
3 the state of New York.
4 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Let's cite
5 a -
6 SENATOR MARINO: It doesn't apply
7 here.
8 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: -- precedent.
9 SENATOR MARINO: It does not
10 apply here.
11 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Well, that's
12 your version.
13 SENATOR MARINO: Yes, because
14 we've done it all along.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Ohrenstein.
17 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Ohrenstein. I know I'm flirting with danger
20 here, but may I ask that you center your
21 questions through the chair. Please.
22 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: You are
23 correct. You are correct.
3153
1 I still ask you the question. I
2 mean you have cited these precedents. I cite
3 another precedent. You have cited these
4 precedents. I still would like to understand
5 what -- your assertion that a joint session that
6 is called without a concurrent resolution, that
7 that makes it illegal.
8 SENATOR MARINO: It's never been
9 done any other way, Senator. Four times there
10 was a vacancy in a statewide office, and four
11 times you had concurrent resolutions. I submit,
12 therefore, that historically that's the
13 procedure that is to be followed, and I also
14 submit that the Speaker thought that when he
15 passed the concurrent resolution.
16 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: And I
17 suggest to you, Senator Marino, that the fact
18 that it was done this way doesn't mean that it
19 is a condition precedent or a legal requirement
20 that it be done that way. The only legal
21 requirement is in the law, which says that the
22 -- while the Legislature -- when a vacancy
23 occurs while we're in session, the two houses by
3154
1 joint ballot shall appoint someone to fill a
2 vacancy. It does not speak to how that joint
3 ballot occurs. It can occur by the way you
4 suggest, and it can occur in other ways. No one
5 has ever spoken to the fact that only a
6 concurrent resolution can convene the two houses
7 in joint ballot. There is no such requirement
8 in this bill. And there are other precedents,
9 particularly those with regard to the Regents,
10 where I concede to you the language is somewhat
11 different, but it is equally -- it is vague in
12 other ways; and, therefore, your assertion -
13 I'm simply challenging your assertion that a
14 concurrent resolution is the only way in which
15 we convene a joint session under Section 41 of
16 the Public Officers Law.
17 SENATOR MARINO: Senator, that's
18 your opinion and I'm sure a court will tell us
19 who's right.
20 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: And that's
21 your opinion. Okay. So then let's get on with
22 the issue.
23 Senator Marino, I listened very
3155
1 carefully to what you said before in justifying
2 this resolution, which in fact, is also somewhat
3 unprecedented. You are declaring a nullity or
4 you are attempting to declare a nullity an act
5 which hasn't even taken place. You are in
6 advance saying, "If this act takes place in this
7 way, we think it's illegal." So at best, this
8 is an expression of your version of what the law
9 is, and there are several instances in this
10 resolution which indicate that there are
11 assumptions to it, particularly the assumption
12 that there has to be a concurrent resolution,
13 that that's the foundation for this whole
14 resolution; and, therefore, if that foundation
15 is not correct, the resolution falls by its own
16 weight.
17 But let me say that this
18 resolution is really irrelevant because no
19 resolution passed by one house or a majority of
20 one house can nullify an act that is being
21 executed pursuant to the existing law. The law
22 is a bill that was passed some years ago, signed
23 by the Governor. It is now the law and it
3156
1 governs it, and that law definitely calls for a
2 joint ballot by both houses in order to fill -
3 fulfill a vacancy. It says nothing about
4 concurrent resolution. It says nothing about
5 how it is to be convened; and, therefore, I
6 would suggest to you the method of convocation
7 can be different in different instances and
8 would be equally legal.
9 The question -- the one thing
10 that is required by the law is that we meet in
11 joint session to fulfill a vacancy. That law
12 doesn't say we can only fill a vacancy in joint
13 session if there are reforms passed with regard
14 to the selection process for Comptroller or
15 reforms passed with regard to how we manage our
16 retirement system. I'll say this. At least on
17 the question of reforms on the selection process
18 for vacancy for Comptroller or Attorney General,
19 at least it is somewhat relevant to this
20 process, but it is not a condition which is
21 required by the law. As regard to the reform of
22 the trusteeship system with regard to the
23 pension fund, that has absolutely nothing to do
3157
1 with the selection of a Comptroller to fulfill a
2 vacancy.
3 We do have a law in effect now.
4 That is the law, and that is the law we are
5 compelled to abide by, and we are not -- there
6 is nothing in the law which says you don't have
7 to abide by it unless to change the law to some
8 version which you believe is correct or somebody
9 else is correct. So that is the opening
10 assumption of your statement. It is the opening
11 assumption with all due respect, -- and I have,
12 as you know, enormous respect for you personally
13 and for your leadership, but that is the
14 underlying basis for your whole challenge to
15 what is mandated by law.
16 Your press reless today and the
17 events preceding that with regard to the
18 conversations that were related to me between
19 you and your representatives and the
20 representatives of the Speaker and the Assembly
21 were that you would agree to a session next
22 Monday; you would pass a concurrent resolution
23 for a session next Monday provided the Assembly
3158
1 agreed to pass a concurrent resolution which
2 changed the law with regard to the selection of
3 a Comptroller, and the Attorney General, I
4 assume, some time in the future if that was ever
5 to occur; and that, secondly, that the Assembly
6 agree to a bill which was handed to them which
7 created a new trusteeship group or whatever you
8 call it, for the pension system.
9 That's the conditions which you
10 presented to the Assembly.
11 SENATOR MARINO: Would you
12 yield?
13 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Certainly.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Marino.
16 SENATOR MARINO: Clearly, you are
17 talking about hearsay, Senator, and I respect
18 your right to talk about hearsay.
19 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: I suggest we
20 do a lot of things around here by hearsay.
21 SENATOR MARINO: No, I respect
22 that, but I just want you to know that I believe
23 I have a closer connection with the
3159
1 conversation, and let me assure you that the
2 proposals we made were not conditions, quid pro
3 quo. They were concerns we had about the
4 present status of the way we pick a Comptroller
5 and the power we give an unelected Comptroller
6 over the lives of those people who are concerned
7 about their pensions. I shared the same
8 concerns that the Assembly had. And all we said
9 was let's sit down and see if we can work out
10 some mutually satisfactory legislation. These
11 were not conditions. These were concerns that
12 they have and we have, and we said give us a
13 chance to talk about them, and perhaps we can
14 come to some conclusion on it. Okay. We didn't
15 say you have to accept all of it, some of it, or
16 whatever and that was it.
17 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: May I quote
18 your own words?
19 SENATOR MARINO: Yes.
20 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Your words
21 are, "We have offered to pass a concurrent
22 resolution..." -
23 SENATOR MARINO: Yes.
3160
1 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: -- "... to
2 enable the Democrats to sit in joint session -
3 to enable the Democrats to sit in joint
4 session..."
5 SENATOR MARINO: Yes.
6 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: I assume it
7 would be the Legislature to sit in joint
8 session. "... and hand pick the next Comptroller
9 if they agree to reform the selection process
10 and trusteeship of the retirement system."
11 That's your statement. It was a
12 condition.
13 SENATOR MARINO: Does it say
14 "passage" there?
15 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: "If they
16 agree to reform."
17 SENATOR MARINO: Yes. To reform,
18 yes.
19 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: I don't know
20 what kind of agreements are made around here
21 without the agreement on bills that are passed.
22 SENATOR MARINO: Senator, I would
23 submit to you that, clearly, the first passage
3161
1 of a constitutional amendment doesn't do
2 anything except make a statement. That doesn't
3 reform anything. I know it, and you know it,
4 and the Assembly knows that, but we want to get
5 started in the process.
6 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Well, what
7 about your trusteeship proposal that you handed
8 to the Speaker?
9 SENATOR MARINO: Yes. The
10 difference was between four and thirteen and the
11 nature of the members, basically. In five days,
12 I can change that. We can agree or agree to
13 agree or have some dialogue. The Assembly
14 refused to talk about it, and it was their
15 original proposal. That's chutzpah, Senator, I
16 submit.
17 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: We'll see if
18 we can agree on a definition of what's chutzpah.
19 Senator Marino, with all due
20 respect, the question -
21 SENATOR MARINO: Read the last
22 paragraph. It says "consider changes."
23 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Well, you
3162
1 know, you say something different in different
2 paragraphs. And, Senator, I may even say to
3 you, you said something different on the floor
4 just before. Because on the one hand you were
5 insisting on legislation, and then you were
6 upset because you weren't privy to the rules or
7 you don't know what the rules of the joint
8 session are, that that has become a condition
9 precedent. But be that as it may.
10 Senator Marino, the question of
11 the trusteeship of the pension fund has been a
12 matter which has been discussed in this Capitol
13 for years. Indeed, the Assembly has year after
14 year passed a bill which calls for a thirteen
15 member trusteeship. But which -- which
16 trusteeship council, or whatever it is called,
17 is basically appointed by the Comptroller.
18 Their bill provides one appointment by the
19 Governor. The Comptroller is chairman of that
20 trusteeship council, and there are certain
21 requirements that public employees be
22 represented in the appointments, in the eleven
23 appointments the Comptroller makes, and that the
3163
1 Conference of Mayors and of Counties be
2 represented on this council because they have an
3 interest too, because, as you know -- it is well
4 known -- the pension fund also covers many
5 counties and many cities, and it's certainly
6 that the public employees of this state have
7 every right to deal with their pension fund
8 because it's their money.
9 The difference between the bill
10 you presented today is huge. And, by the way,
11 under that proposal that the Assembly has
12 offered to you for years, the Comptroller would
13 be the chairman of this council. He would
14 select eleven appointees of that council and he
15 would still be the -- he or she would still be
16 the custodian of the fund and administer it.
17 Under your proposal, you would substitute that
18 with a trusteeship council of which the
19 Comptroller would be the chair. There would be
20 one appointment by the Governor, one by the
21 Majority Leader of the Senate, and one by the
22 Speaker, and would remove all powers with regard
23 to investment decisions from the Comptroller and
3164
1 enshrine it in this council and would remove
2 custodial control over the retirement system
3 from the Comptroller and put it into this
4 council.
5 Senator Marino, on Monday of this
6 week after weeks and weeks of an open process
7 that was public and open -- we had public
8 hearings to which you were invited and to which
9 you originally agreed to and these were valid.
10 They were there. The press was there after
11 weeks and weeks of consideration, starting on
12 February 18 when the Comptroller indicated he
13 would resign. There was an open, public process
14 which resulted on Monday at a meeting in which
15 the members of this Legislature who are
16 Democrats were present, in which that body of
17 127 agreed to make Mr. Carl McCall the
18 Democratic nominee for Comptroller. And since,
19 meeting in joint session, the Democrats 127
20 strong have the power to make that nomination
21 stick and to make Mr. McCall the new Comptroller
22 of the state of New York, that action spoke to
23 you to tell you that we, the Democratic Party
3165
1 here, made a decision on how to fill this
2 vacancy.
3 Within 24 hours, you offer the
4 leadership of the Assembly a bill which in one
5 fell swoop would emasculate the new Comptroller
6 of the state of New York.
7 SENATOR MARINO: Senator yield?
8 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: When I
9 finish, then I will be happy to yield to you any
10 time, Senator Marino. Your bill is so different
11 from what the Assembly bill provided for years
12 and what has been under discussion that in some
13 -- and I say this respectfully to you, it was
14 in some respects an insult to the process which
15 we followed and to the man who is highly quali
16 fied and comes to this with enormous credential
17 by moving ahead and trying to do this in 24
18 hours. You didn't even give him the courtesy of
19 getting elected so that he could comment and
20 work with us on this profound change in our
21 pension system.
22 So if all of these years of
23 dialogue and debate did not change, did not come
3166
1 to a conclusion on this particular issue, how in
2 blazes could you possibly think by offering a
3 bill of the kind that you offered yesterday to
4 the Speaker would lead to some conclusion within
5 a matter of days? A bill which would have
6 created a political boondoggle of our retirement
7 system, because it is totally inappropriate that
8 the political parties represented in this
9 Legislature appoint the people who run the
10 pension system. The pension system should be
11 run by the Comptroller. And if we want to have
12 a board to advise him or even to mandate him on
13 the question of investment decisions, then it
14 has to be a board which represents the parties
15 in interest, the employees, the local government
16 units which are represented, and the state of
17 New York as represented by the Comptroller. But
18 to offer this bill, with all due respect,
19 Senator Marino, does not befit your high
20 standards.
21 That is why it was rejected
22 because there is no point in even discussing it,
23 aside from the fact that it is not relevant to
3167
1 our complying with the law which we passed years
2 ago on how to fill the vacancy at this time.
3 Now, let's talk about that. I
4 remember a couple years ago when the Governor or
5 the Lieutenant Governor asked us, begged us to
6 change the process by which the Lieutenant
7 Governor is elected, by which the succession is
8 mandated, because the Governor believed there
9 were certain flaws. Indeed, the United States
10 of America went through that process; and for a
11 long time, the Congress considered changes in
12 how to do this and finally came to an agreement
13 in a constitutional amendment which finally
14 passed. It took years.
15 We have never had a discussion
16 here until this matter arose about how we should
17 more appropriately fill the vacancies for
18 Comptroller or Lieutenant Governor or, for that
19 matter, of how we should provide for succession
20 in this state should something happen to the
21 Governor. Those are very appropriate matters
22 which require long and thoughtful discussion and
23 public hearings. Certainly on the question of
3168
1 the trusteeship council, that requires input and
2 hearings from the people who are affected by it
3 who could not possibly be consulted in the next
4 two or three days which is your time schedule.
5 So I must say to you, with all
6 due respect to you and your integrity, which is
7 without question, the proposal you made to the
8 Speaker on the question of these things -- I
9 will give you the best of motivations that you
10 want these reforms. The Speaker wants reforms,
11 we want reforms. But you are not going to get
12 them in three days on matters that have been
13 before us for years and have not been able to be
14 resolved and get them in three days because you
15 wish them so; and in the process, you tell the
16 gentleman who will likely be the new
17 Comptroller, "Well, we're going to make you
18 Comptroller, but now we're going to take it all
19 away from you," without even talking to him or
20 her and consulting them. That is not an
21 appropriate way.
22 Senator Marino, we're going to
23 have a joint session whether it's tomorrow or
3169
1 the next day or the day after that. Why must
2 you throw roadblocks into this process when the
3 result is inevitable? You have put forward a
4 desire to reform the system. We join you in
5 that desire, and we will work with you. The
6 Speaker will work with you. But don't try to
7 tell us we have to hold up this election and
8 finish a process which has now lasted close to
9 two months and put into office a new Comptroller
10 who is highly qualified, a distinguished former
11 member of this house, an ambassador to the
12 United Nations, who will bring enormous credit
13 to this state. Why do you want to sit four
14 square in the wake of that?
15 So I would suggest to you no one
16 wants to take your prerogatives away. Nobody
17 wants to mistreat or ill treat members of the
18 Majority of this house. God knows, we don't do
19 it. We can't do it even if we tried.
20 But in the same time if you're in
21 a minority in this joint session, why don't you
22 have the grace to simply say, "Okay, you guys
23 have made up your minds the way you want to go."
3170
1 No one has taken any umbrage or suggested even
2 in the slightest that the gentleman that we are
3 about to nominate and elect is not qualified, in
4 any way. On the contrary, every newspaper in
5 this state has praised him to the sky. So why
6 simply not finish it, and let's stop this
7 quibbling about positioning ourselves
8 politically or being on some kind of an ego trip
9 because you don't like the way you have been
10 treated.
11 Senator Marino, we don't like the
12 way we're treated sometimes either, but that
13 comes with the territory, and we go on and we
14 come to the sessions here. Don't think that
15 over the years from time to time there have not
16 been suggestions in my conference that we simply
17 walk out and not come to the session, and that
18 has always been vetoed by members of my
19 conference, because the Senate meets and we're
20 going to be there whether we like what's
21 happening or not. Protesting and going on some
22 kind of a strike is not the way to do it.
23 The way this body is going to be
3171
1 convened tomorrow is as legal as any other
2 process. It is being convened by the presiding
3 officer of the Senate and the presiding officer
4 of the Assembly in one unique circumstance when
5 we have a joint session. It is not interfering
6 with the prerogatives or the rules of this
7 house. And I think -- I beg you to have the
8 grace to accede to this process and to let us
9 finish to elect a Comptroller and not to
10 question the process and have this matter
11 hanging in the air for weeks and months simply
12 because you in some way felt that you were not
13 appropriately consulted. It isn't fair. It
14 isn't necessary because you will be
15 appropriately consulted, I promise you, from
16 here on in every day, every day of the week and
17 every month of the year, when we are in session
18 because nobody has an alternative to you. You
19 have the majority, and we accede to that, and
20 you are going to be making the decision.
21 On this one, you can't make the
22 decisions because you are not in the majority.
23 There is nothing shameful about that. That's
3172
1 the nature of the system which is the law. So,
2 again, as I say to you, I think your arguments
3 are specious. The scenario which you put out
4 about conditioning this on some kind of a
5 reform, it won't work. It is not credible
6 because in all the years we've been here we
7 haven't reformed this process despite intensive
8 discussion on this matter.
9 So I ask you to withdraw this
10 resolution. Come to the session tomorrow.
11 Let's elect a new Comptroller. Then we will
12 convene here and go about our business.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Ohrenstein, do you yield to Senator Marino?
15 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Sure.
16 SENATOR MARINO: Senator
17 Ohrenstein, I just wanted to correct a couple of
18 your statements because they're factually
19 incorrect. The bill that you said we just put
20 together and threw at the Speaker was written
21 and circulated last week. It was not done to
22 get Mr. McCall or anyone else. So whoever the
23 nominee was, in our opinion, should have been
3173
1 subject to this type of legislation.
2 So we have not pointed to any
3 particular person as a target for these bills.
4 We just felt that these bills were important
5 bills and should be addressed, because having a
6 vacancy in the Office of Comptroller in mid-term
7 is unusual. As you know -- you have been here a
8 long time -- it's probably never happened in
9 your time. It certainly hasn't happened in
10 mine. You, yourself, said, Senator, that
11 political parties ought not run the pension
12 system. And we feel that four people using
13 their brains perhaps might come to a different
14 conclusion than one person over the lives of
15 people who depend on a pension system and
16 especially over a person who hasn't been elected
17 by the people. You know, Ned Regan at least was
18 elected by the people, so he was accountable to
19 the people. That's what we're suggesting here.
20 We need oversight because we have an unelected
21 Comptroller under your system or under the one
22 you're trying -
23 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Under my
3174
1 system?
2 SENATOR MARINO: Under the system
3 you are trying to enforce tomorrow.
4 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: No, under
5 the system that is in law. With all due
6 respect, Senator Marino, under the law.
7 SENATOR MARINO: Under the law,
8 Senator, the Lieutenant Governor has no right to
9 convene any kind of a meeting of this house at
10 any place, at any time.
11 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Would you
12 yield?
13 SENATOR MARINO: Yes. You show
14 me the authority, Senator, and I will bow to
15 that authority.
16 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Well, if you
17 won't pass a concurrent resolution and if the
18 Lieutenant Governor doesn't have the authority,
19 how would you propose such a meeting take
20 place?
21 SENATOR MARINO: Answer my
22 question first. What is the authority of the
23 Lieutenant Governor?
3175
1 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: The
2 Lieutenant Governor is the presiding officer
3 under the constitution of the state of New
4 York. This is, as I've said a unique -- there
5 are certain unique meetings of the Legislature
6 which are provided for by law. And when the two
7 houses meet together in joint session, the
8 Lieutenant Governor has presided always, and he
9 is the presiding officer; and, therefore, he has
10 as much color of authority as you have color of
11 authority in terms of concurrent resolutions.
12 SENATOR MARINO: Senator, I don't
13 wish to debate this at any length, but I just
14 want you to know that I don't think you can cite
15 any sections of our rules that would permit the
16 Lieutenant Governor to convene any kind of a
17 session since it is not by majority vote of this
18 house. That's the only way we operate, as far
19 as I know, in this house or in the other house.
20 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: With all due
21 respect, neither can you cite any sections of
22 the law which require a concurrent resolution.
23 SENATOR MARINO: I've told you
3176
1 by -- if for no other reason, by precedent,
2 Senator, four times when it's happened. When
3 we've had vacancies, that's the way it was
4 handled. And I've submitted to you that the
5 Speaker himself thought that, by passing a
6 concurrent resolution.
7 Now, I don't think you would
8 suggest that Al Gore can convene a session of
9 the House of Representatives or the Senate or
10 any other body, and that's what you are
11 suggesting here -
12 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: I -
13 SENATOR MARINO: -- that that can
14 happen, and it can't happen. It can't happen
15 there, and it's not going to happen here. And,
16 Senator, you, I know, are anxious to uphold the
17 rules of this house. And it's important, I
18 believe and we believe on this side and you
19 should believe, that this is a bad precedent
20 that the presiding officer of this house can
21 call a session together with the other house. I
22 just think it's a bad precedent. It's illegal,
23 improper, and we must challenge that kind of a
3177
1 meeting. That's what our position is here,
2 Senator.
3 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Will the
4 Senator yield?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Ohrenstein, you have the floor, sir.
7 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Senator
8 Marino, there will be no bill within the next
9 four or five days or a week to a concurrent
10 resolution reforming the process by which
11 Comptroller and Attorney General vacancies are
12 made. There will be none, because it's going to
13 take time. And there certainly should be public
14 hearings, and the public should be consulted on
15 this issue. I think there is a lot of desire to
16 do this. It isn't going to happen in the next
17 three or four days or week.
18 There certainly, after years of
19 debate, isn't going to be a bill which both
20 houses agree on to deal with a question of the
21 trusteeship of the retirement system and a basic
22 change with regard to the two major functions,
23 which is investment decisions and the custodial
3178
1 thing which is very complicated. And certainly
2 with respect to that, there is not going to be a
3 bill unless the public employees are consulted
4 whose money this is and unless the counties are
5 consulted whose pension monies we administrate
6 or the cities of this state, with the exception
7 of the city of New York, are consulted whose
8 money is in the fund. That's not going to
9 happen in four days or in a week.
10 So are you saying to us that
11 unless these reforms take place some time in the
12 next weeks or months, we should not fill this
13 vacancy as mandated by law? Is that your
14 proposal?
15 SENATOR MARINO: Senator, what
16 you are proposing and what the Assembly is
17 proposing that the majority of your side and the
18 Assembly get together and in two days -- two
19 days, not five days, not a week -- two days
20 appoint a Comptroller. We suggested a
21 referendum. You reject that. Everybody rejects
22 that. The Assembly has rejected that.
23 You speak for the Assembly now,
3179
1 obviously, when you say that they would reject
2 four members rather than thirteen. How do you
3 know that? I don't know that. They don't want
4 to talk to me about it. So give us the
5 opportunity, is all we say, to discuss this, and
6 then we will go along with you on a concurrent
7 resolution. They won't give me that
8 opportunity. They won't even permit us to adopt
9 the rules for such a meeting.
10 Senator, that's wrong.
11 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: The rules
12 for such a meeting will be adopted by the joint
13 session as they have always been adopted by the
14 joint session. Rules of the joint session have
15 always been adopted by the joint session.
16 And, Senator Marino, forgive me,
17 but you are being somewhat disingenuous, to tell
18 us, "We won't agree to a change in the filling
19 of a vacancy by special election and so on."
20 You won't agree to a referendum. You are
21 suddenly becoming this great reformer because of
22 this vacancy. Where were you all last year, the
23 year before, ten years ago, when we had the
3180
1 chance to do this thoughtfully and properly?
2 Suddenly you want to do this.
3 Senator Marino, let me tell you
4 why I refer to the date of March 11, 1975.
5 Because on that day Senator Anderson did not
6 wish to accede to a joint session on the
7 selection of a Regent as mandated by law. The
8 Lieutenant Governor called up a concurrent
9 resolution in order to convene that session.
10 And when Senator Anderson replied, he came up
11 with the idea that a reason they didn't want to
12 go into joint session -- and I was there at that
13 time because I'm quoted extensively in these
14 debates. You would not accede to a joint
15 session unless every member of the Senate was
16 given two and a half votes. That was his
17 proposal. So suddenly on that day, he came up
18 with this ingenious reform and he expected that
19 to be adopted on that day before he would agree
20 to a joint session.
21 Well, obviously, there was no
22 such agreement, and the Lieutenant Governor
23 recessed this house. The Majority stayed in
3181
1 this house. The Minority went over into session
2 as required by law, and we elected a Regent
3 without your presence. I would suggest to you
4 that that same scenario is going to happen
5 tomorrow not because we want it that way but
6 because you haven't given us a single reason why
7 we can't meet tomorrow in joint session, adopt
8 rules, have our debates. We have never had a
9 joint session in which there was a lack of
10 debate or a lack of opportunity to nominate
11 candidates or a lack of opportunity to speak for
12 the candidates. That's a specious argument.
13 That all will be done, and we
14 will debate the rules if you disagree with the
15 rules; and I would dare say, if you have
16 amendments that are meritorious, they will be
17 adopted. You tell us that all the time when we
18 do that, and I mean that sincerely. There is
19 only one reason that you don't want to convene
20 tomorrow, and that is because of the conditions
21 you seek to effect here which are conditions
22 which are impossible to obtain.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3182
1 Waldon.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
3 much, Mr. President.
4 This is the best of times and the
5 worst of times. It's the best of times because
6 we have the opportunity in New York State to do
7 something that's quite historic. Long after the
8 state of Illinois, long after the state of South
9 Carolina, long after even the state of
10 Mississippi, we have a chance to have an
11 African-American hold statewide office.
12 The worst of times because, on
13 the eve of that historic occasion, someone has
14 muddied the waters. I'm concerned that the
15 integrity of the Senate is important. No one
16 wishes to be disrespected, treated as a
17 second-class citizen, be labeled impotent
18 politicians or not allowed to exercise the
19 mandate from the people who voted each of us to
20 come here and do the people's business. But on
21 this side of the aisle, this is almost a daily
22 experience at times.
23 My reading of the constitution
3183
1 and of the Public Officers Law disagrees with
2 that of Senator Marino. But my concerns in
3 rising, Mr. President, are not so much about the
4 big issue that he is talking about but a more
5 parochial issue, and that parochial issue is
6 about color and race.
7 And I ask the question of those
8 in this body. Some of you I've gone to dinner
9 with, we've chatted, we've gone on vacation
10 together, and I know in your heart of hearts on
11 that side of the aisle that you are not racist,
12 but what is happening here tonight sends a
13 signal to a large percentage of the people of
14 the state of New York which will be interpreted
15 as racist.
16 Let me tell you why I feel that
17 way. Why now, when Carl McCall is about to be
18 appointed the Comptroller, do we propose to take
19 away his power as the steward of the New York
20 State employees' pension system?
21 Why now do we propose that four
22 people replace the board that is in place at
23 this time or even the board that has been
3184
1 proposed in the Assembly and put the pension
2 system in charge of the most political animals
3 in Albany, the Governor, the Speaker and the
4 leader of this house, and relegate the
5 Comptroller to a subservient position?
6 To do these things proposed by my
7 colleagues on this side of the aisle sends a
8 signal to my people that we are not qualified.
9 Whether you mean to do that or not, it says to
10 someone who grew up in my shoes, in my
11 community, from my heritage, that we're not
12 qualified.
13 It says that even when the
14 process is right and lawful -- and I believe the
15 process described by the Minority Leader is
16 right and lawful -- that even though the process
17 is right and lawful, we will not abide the
18 process. We will change it to suit our personal
19 means.
20 It says no matter how
21 credentialized, how experienced politically, how
22 much support one has from white or black, Jew or
23 gentile, if you don't get your way in this
3185
1 process, the process is unacceptable and that
2 you won't play the game and that you'll take
3 your ball and bat and go home.
4 It says to all who look like me
5 in the state, who have been historically the
6 most disenfranchised people of this country,
7 that we will further disenfranchise you, and
8 this is happening in 1993.
9 My colleagues, my friends, I
10 think that this action is beneath the dignity of
11 this house. It is unacceptable; it is immoral;
12 it is not astute politically. And I would hope
13 that in your heart of hearts, in your reasoning
14 of reasons -- in your reasoning capability, that
15 you will reject this resolution and let us be
16 about the business for all of the people of the
17 state of New York, not just a few.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Gold.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
22 President.
23 First of all, I want to thank
3186
1 Senator Ohrenstein for laying out this -- these
2 issues in what I thought was a very cogent and
3 wonderful way, and I'm proud that he is our
4 spokesman.
5 Senator Waldon, I heard Senator
6 Marino, perhaps in anticipation of your
7 comments, make a remark that this bill was
8 drafted about a week ago before it was Carl
9 McCall. And I guess if one were a skeptical
10 kind of person, they might say it really wasn't
11 aimed at Carl McCall. Maybe they were afraid it
12 would be a woman. Maybe someone was afraid it
13 could have been the Borough President of the
14 Bronx.
15 The answer is that whatever the
16 thoughts were, you are exactly right, Senator
17 Waldon. You are exactly right. The timing of
18 this is terrible. The individuals involved on
19 the other side of the aisle are gentlemen of
20 good will, I'm sure. But the timing is terrible
21 in terms of the message it conveys.
22 There's been reference all
23 evening to why this two-day rush to do this act,
3187
1 and I'm flabbergasted. I mean I haven't agreed
2 with Ned Regan day in and day out, but there is
3 a gentleman, and I use that word and I mean it,
4 who on or about February 18th said, I'm going to
5 do something at the end of April. Get ready.
6 I'm going to do something. I'm not going to
7 tell you the day before and leave the state
8 afloat without a Comptroller elected in a proper
9 way. And, by the way, the constitution tells us
10 the proper way and we're going to do that.
11 Now, am I being told by 35
12 Republicans in this house that Ned Regan is a
13 liar and, therefore, we couldn't believe him
14 until the day it happened? That's outrageous.
15 It's outrageous. He did it because he had
16 respect for the state, and he wanted a process.
17 The law involved says, "Shall."
18 We can do it. And one of the gentlemen on your
19 side of the aisle said at the Rules Committee
20 meeting, "Well, it says shall, but it doesn't
21 say today." And the implication is, we could do
22 it a month, two months, maybe never.
23 Well, yes, the power to tax is
3188
1 the power to destroy. The power to say "never"
2 is the power to undercut the constitution, and
3 that is terrible, terrible logic and reasoning.
4 But more important than that,
5 with the Comptroller of your party, who gives us
6 notice in February of what he is going to do the
7 end of April, the Majority Leader of this house,
8 the Minority Leader of the Assembly agreed to a
9 process. A process -- probably the most open
10 process in the history of this state in these
11 kinds of circumstances, and then they picked up
12 their marbles and left.
13 Not only did they pick up their
14 marbles and leave, but they issued press
15 statements, criticizing the process, accusing
16 Democrats of doing things behind closed doors,
17 things that we should be ashamed of, that we
18 were abusing the system.
19 And listening very carefully to
20 everything you say, because everybody should
21 listen to everything you say, the newspapers
22 reacted, and they reacted by endorsing Carl
23 McCall because they knew what you said was
3189
1 hogwash. They know it.
2 I mean NEWSDAY, they didn't go
3 all over Long Island and New York City and say
4 that the Democrats are abusing the system, it's
5 got to be changed, it's antique, et cetera, et
6 cetera. They said, Come on, stop this
7 nonsense. Go with Carl McCall.
8 The New York Times, Mr. McCall
9 for state Comptroller. "Don't you get any kind
10 of a message from that? I can't stop you from
11 saying anything you -
12 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
13 Will the Senator yield?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Daly, why do you rise?
16 SENATOR DALY: Do you believe,
17 from the way you speak, and I think you do, that
18 the -
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
20 me, sir.
21 Senator Gold, do you yield?
22 SENATOR DALY: Does the Senator
23 yield?
3190
1 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, sir.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator yields.
4 Senator Daly.
5 SENATOR DALY: Thank you.
6 Senator, do you actually think
7 that the newspaper editorial boards that you are
8 reading right now speak ex cathedra?
9 SENATOR GOLD: Speak what?
10 SENATOR DALY: Speak from the
11 throne. They're always right.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, excuse me.
13 Excuse me. Sir -
14 SENATOR DALY: Why do you throw
15 it in our face?
16 SENATOR GOLD: I didn't plant
17 that question, did I?
18 Senator, the answer is very
19 simple. I don't put any newspaper on a
20 pedestal. I don't put anybody on a pedestal. I
21 believe in only one God.
22 But what I'm saying to you is,
23 isn't it obvious to you that people who don't
3191
1 have an interest have listened to your arguments
2 and have put them in the trash basket and have
3 understood that this process is the most open
4 process that has ever been in this history?
5 Doesn't it seem weird to you that
6 there isn't anything that says, "Hey, wait a
7 minute, you gentlemen and ladies" -- ladies,
8 referring obviously to this side of the aisle -
9 "you should pay some more attention, do some
10 other things"? None of that -- none of that
11 happened, and all of those arguments were thrown
12 out.
13 The process was always okay with
14 you, and I say "you "and I'm not going to get
15 into the argument of what was everybody doing in
16 1957. But for generations, Republicans with
17 majorities in both houses felt the process was
18 wonderful. Now it ain't your guy, and we get
19 this kind of business.
20 In this resolution -- no, excuse
21 me. In the press release, which was referred to
22 before, Senator Marino says something which I
23 regret very much that he said. He says that if
3192
1 there is a court challenge, quotes, "Such a
2 challenge will only call into question the
3 legality of the selection process, the actions
4 of anyone acting as Comptroller," and then he
5 goes, "the state's ability to borrow, "et
6 cetera, et cetera.
7 Why would you do that? I could
8 never understand why you insisted on carrying
9 budgets over six and seven weeks and affect the
10 credibility of the fiscal integrity of this
11 state. Now, for no reason you are telling us
12 that for your ego, and it says -- and I remember
13 the word was used. I think it was Senator
14 Marino. He said, "This is happening without
15 taking into consideration the will of the
16 Majority."
17 Are you using a dictionary that
18 confuses the word "will" with "ego"? In other
19 words, for your will or ego, you are going to
20 affect the credit rating of this state by
21 questioning the election of a Comptroller that
22 will have a majority of the elected people in
23 both houses, not somebody who gets in under a
3193
1 technicality because you didn't show up and
2 we're taking this, we're doing that.
3 You're suggesting in your press
4 release, Senator Marino, and I don't understand
5 it and I know you know better and I respect you,
6 but you're suggesting that you would bring a
7 lawsuit to oust someone elected by a majority of
8 both houses and you, Senator Marino, would be
9 responsible for affecting the credit rating of
10 this state?
11 SENATOR MARINO: Could I answer
12 that, please?
13 SENATOR GOLD: I'd be delighted.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Will the
15 Senator yield?
16 SENATOR MARINO: What I'm
17 suggesting, Senator, is that you and the
18 Lieutenant Governor and the Speaker would be on
19 notice that you are going to commit an illegal
20 act, and that's why it's in the press release.
21 And that's why we told you a day ahead of time,
22 so you don't do an illegal act at 10:30 a.m.
23 That's why it's in there.
3194
1 SENATOR GOLD: As I was saying,
2 Mr. President, I'm not going to argue the
3 legality of the act because I would only repeat
4 every word said by Senator Ohrenstein because he
5 laid it out beautifully. It is ridiculous if a
6 majority of the people elected in these chambers
7 are in a room at a time we all know it's going
8 to happen, and they agree on somebody -- that's
9 what the constitution requires, the law
10 requires. The person will be the selection of a
11 majority of that house. Senator Marchi said
12 time and time again, two houses, two houses.
13 Senator Marchi, the idea of writing a lot of
14 words and bills means you read to the end of the
15 sentences. The two houses get together and then
16 you have one -- one -- and it's that one that
17 votes, and each of us will have the 1/211th of
18 the vote and 127/211th is a majority.
19 So why frustrate it? What are we
20 accomplishing? We are accomplishing, Senator
21 Marino, an unrequired, unnecessary putting into
22 question the credibility of the state of New
23 York because it's a bad precedent?
3195
1 Can I tell you something about
2 precedent? We on this side of the aisle, as
3 pointed out by Senator Ohrenstein, make
4 arguments day in and day out, and then we have
5 to lose a vote with dignity. That's a precedent
6 that you ought to understand also; that when you
7 have the minority and you don't have the votes,
8 you ought to at least learn to lose it with
9 dignity. It's got to happen. That's what the
10 will of the people is all about. You can't have
11 it, by the way, both ways.
12 And another thing, Senator
13 Marchi, you said that you have never been the
14 loyal opposition; you are part of the
15 governance. Do you want to read all of the
16 campaign literature that I have seen which says
17 that you people never voted for taxes and never
18 voted for the budgets, and it's the Governor and
19 it's everybody else in the world?
20 Well, if you don't want to be
21 part of the governance on election day, then -
22 you know. Very strange. The fact of the
23 matter -
3196
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Marchi, why do you rise?
3 SENATOR MARCHI: Will Senator
4 Gold yield?
5 SENATOR GOLD: For you, Senator
6 Marchi, of course.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Gold yield? Yes, Senator does.
9 SENATOR MARCHI: I would like to
10 ask you a rhetorical question. Have I ever put
11 out any literature that I didn't vote for a tax
12 when it was needed? And haven't many of your
13 own members voted, even with your own
14 administration, the other way? I'm talking
15 about institutional -- or do we understand each
16 other? Do we understand each other?
17 We have been together through
18 thick and thin. Most of these questions are on
19 the same side, so how can you talk that way?
20 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. At
21 least he didn't call me a whited sepulcher this
22 time. I remember when you did that, and it took
23 me an hour to find out what that meant.
3197
1 SENATOR MARCHI: I like good
2 music so I would never tell you that.
3 SENATOR GOLD: You did, too.
4 I'll tell you where you did it. We held a
5 session in Room A.
6 Mr. President. The bottom line
7 is that this really is totally unnecessary. It
8 puts into question our integrity. It puts into
9 question the questions raised by Senator Waldon
10 as to this particular individual of fantastic
11 background who does not deserve being put into
12 this situation, and we just shouldn't do it. I
13 know everybody in this place, and we're better
14 than that. We really are better than that.
15 Unfortunately, if you do what
16 you're doing, I'm going to win a bet I made that
17 I wanted to lose. We shouldn't do it. We
18 should do this with dignity, get it finished,
19 and let the processes continue.
20 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Tully, why do you rise?
23 SENATOR TULLY: Point of
3198
1 information. Would you be able to enlighten us
2 as to how many speakers you have listed?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
4 has listed seven more speakers. For your
5 information also, the debate started at 9:22 if
6 that's of any interest.
7 The Chair has Senator Volker next
8 on the list. I don't see Senator Volker in the
9 room.
10 Senator Dollinger.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
12 Mr. President. I rise. I think this has been
13 an interesting debate for me, and I just want to
14 comment. I will try to be very brief. I'd just
15 like to comment on a couple quick things that
16 have been said. I understand the comments from
17 the leader of the Majority when he talks about
18 intransigence and the need to discuss process.
19 I think most of the members of
20 this house will know that I've been here since
21 day one talking about process in this, as
22 Senator Marchi put it "beloved house." I have
23 been talking about that process. Because I
3199
1 think the process that we have here of late
2 night meetings, late night budget decisions,
3 lack of access to information is all
4 inappropriate.
5 I started that discussion the day
6 I walked in. I can sympathize with the Majority
7 Leader's comment about the process, about the
8 need for process.
9 But I think the process that's
10 been followed in this case has been an exemplary
11 one. There have been public hearings, the kind
12 we should have on our legislative budgets.
13 There's been a discussion about qualifications,
14 an in-depth discussion and analysis of
15 qualifications of candidates. And I believe,
16 consistent with the representations of the
17 Minority Leader, that tomorrow when we meet in
18 joint session we will adopt rules that will give
19 fair debate, give fair opportunity to be heard,
20 and give a chance for all the members, the 211
21 members of a joint session to be able to have
22 their opinions known.
23 So I understand the complaints
3200
1 about process. My hope is that the Majority
2 Leader's comments about process will not fall on
3 deaf ears among all of our members, that we'll
4 look to the process of this institution.
5 And that turns me to my second
6 topic, the topic of the house, as Senator Marchi
7 properly points out. I recognize the importance
8 of the house, but I can't let it do one thing,
9 and that is, overwhelm my sense of obligation to
10 the people who benefit from the actions of this
11 house.
12 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
13 Will the Senator yield to a question?
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Not at this
15 time, Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 refuses to yield, Senator Daly.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It seems to
19 me that when we elevate the house and the
20 institution over the need of the public that
21 it's supposed to serve, we do our public and our
22 constituents a great disservice.
23 My hope is that we won't hold
3201
1 Carl McCall a house hostage; that we won't hold
2 him a hostage to this house and what it believes
3 is its institutional need that overwhelms the
4 needs of our constituents. Because our
5 constituents have an important need; and that is
6 the need for the transformation of political
7 power. We in this country have a long
8 constitutional history at the federal level that
9 emphasizes transitions of power. When there are
10 vacancies in the most important office in this
11 country, we don't wait a week. We don't wait
12 ten days. We don't wait two weeks.
13 Lyndon Baines Johnson was sworn
14 in as the President after the death of John
15 Kennedy in an hour. Richard Nixon resigned.
16 Gerald Ford was sworn in an hour and a half
17 later. Then what did he do? He appointed some
18 one to be Vice-President. We had a President
19 and a Vice-President of the United States who
20 had never been elected. Why? Because that's
21 what the Constitution -- that's the power that
22 the people gave the government to do.
23 In this state, in this instance,
3202
1 we have a constitution and we have statute. We
2 have a power given to us by the people and we
3 exercise this power. This body exercises that
4 power. The Senate approved a statute that said
5 that it would be filled by a meeting of the
6 houses in "joint ballot." That was the one
7 phrase that Senator Gold properly pointed out
8 that Senator Marchi when he emphasized the two
9 houses forgot the other phrase that immediately
10 follows which is, "by joint ballot." That's the
11 part you forgot.
12 That's how we took the power
13 given to us by the people in the constitution,
14 incorporated it in a statute, and that's the law
15 that we now deal with. We are law makers. We
16 must also be law abiders. Have the respect for
17 the house that passed that law, Public Officers
18 Law, and let's follow it. Respect the wish of
19 the prior house that decided that that was the
20 way to fill this vacancy. The constitution
21 demands it. A prior body adopted it, and we
22 ought to follow it.
23 I will close with one other
3203
1 thought. I recognize what this document is. I
2 recognize that this is your findings of fact and
3 conclusions of law for a judge somewhere. I
4 think it's a transparent attempt to try to tell
5 the judiciary that your opinion about what the
6 law and the constitution are is the only opinion
7 that matters. It's my suggestion to all the
8 members of this house, this resolution seeks to
9 take on even more power. What you are trying to
10 do is tell an independent judiciary how they
11 should resolve what may be a legal issue in this
12 case. I disagree with it. I think it's wrong.
13 I think it's wrong-headed.
14 And I would simply ask all of
15 you. Abide by the will of the people as
16 reflected in the constitution and the wisdom of
17 a prior house that decided this ought to be done
18 by joint ballot. Don't risk the future of this
19 state and its Comptroller, a man who is well
20 qualified and entitled to this permission.
21 Don't risk that.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
23 me, Senator.
3204
1 Senator Daly, why do you rise?
2 SENATOR DALY: I thought the
3 Senator was finishing a statement and I would
4 still like him to yield to a question.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll be
6 finished in one minute, Mr. President, and then
7 I will yield to a question.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 refuses to yield at this time, Senator Daly.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd simply
11 ask that you abide by the wishes of a prior
12 house, respect the law that we have in front of
13 us. Let's get the next Comptroller elected.
14 Let's do it the way this body, the Assembly and
15 the Governor in passing that law decided it
16 should be done. We all swore an oath to respect
17 the constitution of the United States, the state
18 of New York, and the laws of that state. Let's
19 fulfill that oath and meet tomorrow morning to
20 elect the Comptroller to fulfill that position.
21 I will yield to a question.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Dollinger yields to Senator Daly. Senator
3205
1 yields.
2 SENATOR DALY: Yes. Mr.
3 President. The Senator mentioned the powers of
4 the house, and I wondered about that. I wonder
5 what power does he think the executive branch
6 should have in dictating what this house should
7 do?
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
9 President. As I think I pointed out, there is a
10 constitution that contains the powers vested in
11 this Legislature and in the Executive. In
12 addition, we exercised that power -- this body
13 exercised that power in, I believe, 1909, and
14 then amended the statute in 1949. That's the
15 procedure under which we work.
16 SENATOR DALY: Will the Senator
17 yield for another question?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Will you
19 continue to yield?
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I will
21 continue to yield.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He does.
23 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. I
3206
1 ask does he believe that the executive branch
2 has the right to dictate to this house? In other
3 words, Mr. President, does he not believe that
4 the legislative branch, by constitution, is
5 completely separate and distinct from the
6 executive branch and that this executive branch
7 has no power whatsoever to dictate to this
8 house? Yes or no?
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The answer to
10 that question, Mr. President, I don't believe
11 that's what the constitution says. My colleague
12 the Minority Leader pointed out that the
13 presiding officer of this body is the Lieutenant
14 Governor. That is, I believe, Mr. Minority
15 Leader, either established by constitution or by
16 statute. Because of his position as the
17 presiding officer, he has certain powers and
18 abilities. In my judgment, that's the way the
19 constitution created it, and that's the way the
20 statute provides.
21 We, who are law makers, ought to
22 be law abiders and simply follow those rules
23 established by a people at an earlier time and
3207
1 by a Legislature at an earlier time.
2 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
3 That is the weirdest -- the weirdest conception
4 of the relationship established -
5 SENATOR CONNOR: Point of order,
6 Mr. President. It's not a question.
7 SENATOR DALY: It will be a
8 question.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Connor.
11 SENATOR DALY: It will be a
12 question. It will be a question.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Daly, are you asking Senator Dollinger to
15 yield?
16 SENATOR DALY: Yes, I am. I'm
17 asking a question.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Dollinger, will you continue to yield?
20 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
21 Have you ever heard -
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Daly.
3208
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No, I will
2 not, Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Dollinger refuses to yield, Senator Daly.
5 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. Am
6 I next on the agenda?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, you
8 are, I believe, Senator Daly.
9 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
10 I've heard of some pretty weird interpretations
11 of the constitution, but for someone to stand in
12 this house and tell me that the executive branch
13 has the right to dictate to this house -
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Daly. Excuse me just a minute. We have a
16 recording problem. I don't mean to interrupt
17 you.
18 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. I
19 want this on.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hold up
21 just a minute.
22 Senator Daly, the Chair
23 recognizes you. You have the floor, sir.
3209
1 SENATOR DALY: As I was saying,
2 Mr. President, this is an explanation of the
3 relationship established between the -- by the
4 constitution between the Legislature and the
5 executive branch that is absolutely incredible.
6 I don't believe that any person in this house
7 will tell me that the executive branch has the
8 right and the power to send us a note and say
9 you will meet on such and such an issue on such
10 and such a day. I take strong exception to
11 that, Mr. President. I would like to see, if I
12 may, I will give all of my colleagues on the
13 other side all the opportunities in the world to
14 present me with evidence in days to come of why
15 this holds true.
16 One other question I was going to
17 ask the Senator. When does a house become a
18 house? When does the Senate officially become
19 the Senate? When it was 25 members in
20 attendance? No, Mr. President. The Senate is
21 not the Senate, is not convened, unless it has
22 31 -- 31 members. And our constitution calls
23 for, as we said before, that both houses -- both
3210
1 houses -- will convene in joint session.
2 I read that, Mr. President, to
3 mean the Senate goes in as a house, and that's
4 what Senator Marino was trying to tell our
5 colleagues on the other side; that if we convene
6 tomorrow without the Senate as a house, unless
7 31 members of the Senate are in that other
8 house, what will be done tomorrow will not be
9 done by a joint session of both houses because
10 one house will not be there. And you can have
11 127. You can have 150 votes. But if this
12 Senate Majority is not in that other chamber,
13 you will have an illegal session.
14 I'm not finished, Mr. President,
15 because I've been insulted and I'm upset.
16 I have been accused of being a
17 racist because I stand on principle. I have
18 been accused of not acting -- of acting now, why
19 haven't I acted in ten years? But I have a
20 problem. See, I have a problem that has just
21 arisen out of the hearings, and I read the
22 hearings, Senator. And that apparition, Mr.
23 President, is something called social
3211
1 engineering.
2 I haven't had to face that too
3 much in the last ten years. I haven't heard too
4 much about it. Our present Comptroller did a
5 pretty good job of investing the people's money,
6 the pensioners' money. And I'm sorry.
7 I will not yield, Mr. President.
8 I'm sorry. That concerns me.
9 You are literally attacking one of my
10 principles. I take exception to be called a
11 racist because I have a problem with that. I
12 believe -- and I read -- I got this problem by
13 reading what was said by the people who were
14 interviewed and by Mr. McCall, for whom, by the
15 way, I have absolutely great respect. I like
16 him as a person. I respect him as a man, and
17 let no one ever take exception to that.
18 But he and I have a difference of
19 opinion, which is very important to me, because
20 I think it's more important than the selection
21 -- than the selection of the Comptroller; and
22 that is, the policy we will establish, Mr.
23 President, in the handling of those billions of
3212
1 dollars that pensioners, people have invested
2 for their future to take care of them when they
3 are old and when they retire. And why? It is
4 discriminatory. Why should they be held
5 accountable? Their money. Their money, not the
6 state's money. Why should their money be used
7 for social engineering. That's not their
8 responsibility. That's our responsibility as a
9 Legislature. That's our responsibility as an
10 entire state.
11 And so, Mr. President, that is
12 why -- that's why a new apparition -- a new -
13 we have a new awakening if I can use the Deputy
14 Minority Leader's words that he used on us the
15 other day. We're very concerned about that, and
16 that's why. That's why to us the establishment
17 of a commission to oversee the pensions is
18 important. You see, I believe that the only
19 criteria that should be used in determining how
20 the pensioners' monies are invested is the
21 safety of the investment and the return on
22 investment.
23 Now, you might disagree with me.
3213
1 I'm sure you do, and I respect you for it, but I
2 would hope you would respect me for what I
3 believe, and I take very strong, very great
4 exception, going back to my original, on being
5 literally -- literally, I think I was -- it was
6 not implied. I think it was more than implied.
7 It was used.
8 There were some cheap shots over
9 there too. Cheap shots. I'm not a racist.
10 I'll stand on my principle. This I believe in,
11 and I don't give a damn the color of a man's
12 skin, his religion, and whatever.
13 And let me go back and say,
14 because I like this man. I like Mr. McCall. I
15 have great respect for him. I might agree with
16 you he'd be a good appointment. I'm not going
17 to say that for the record. But let me tell you
18 this. I think we stand on very substantial
19 ground, Mr. President. The Senate is right.
20 I respect the integrity of this
21 house. I know you do on that side of the aisle,
22 but that integrity has been violated. The
23 executive branch has spoken ex cathedra, and it
3214
1 said from on high that you will meet. You will
2 meet.
3 I refuse to listen to the
4 executive branch, Mr. President. This is my
5 house. This is my branch, and I'm going to
6 defend it.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Gold, why do you rise?
10 SENATOR GOLD: Will the gentleman
11 yield to a question?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Daly, will you yield to a question?
14 SENATOR DALY: Yes, sir, I will.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Daly yields.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Daly, I
18 thought I heard you say that we could not have a
19 meeting unless there were a majority of the
20 members of this house present.
21 SENATOR DALY: Yes, sir, you
22 heard me say that.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Was that your
3215
1 comment?
2 SENATOR DALY: Oh, you can have a
3 meeting. You can have a meeting with no one
4 from this house present. I would sincerely
5 question the legality of that joint session in
6 this case.
7 SENATOR GOLD: If the Senator
8 will yield to a question?
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Will you
10 yield, Senator Daly?
11 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, let me
13 read you just a couple of sentences. I think
14 it's only one sentence from the court's decision
15 in Krupsak -- in Anderson versus Krupsak, 1976,
16 Court of Appeals, "to require that a majority of
17 each house be present at a joint session would
18 permit the statute to be too easily frustrated
19 particularly as here were or an originally dead
20 locked result from a political division of the
21 house."
22 Senator. Senator, forgetting the
23 issue of calling the session, won't you at least
3216
1 concede to me that if the session is called
2 properly -- get past that -- that at that point
3 we're meeting as one house and a quorum is a
4 quorum? I mean the Court of Appeals couldn't
5 have made that any clearer; otherwise, a
6 minority of the 211 votes -- and you will accede
7 to me, I'm sure, that 35 people here is a
8 minority of 211 -- would be able to frustrate
9 everything else by just not showing up?
10 SENATOR DALY: That's the end of
11 the question.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Yes.
13 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
14 The Senator uses apples and oranges, talking
15 about a completely different case. It's a
16 completely different situation dealing with the
17 Regents. It does not apply in this case, and I
18 don't believe he can legitimately use that as an
19 excuse and to tell us that if they meet tomorrow
20 without a majority of this house in attendance
21 that that will not be an illegal
22 convocation.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator yield
3217
1 to a question?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Daly, will you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 does.
7 SENATOR GOLD: I have just one
8 more question here, and then I have one other,
9 if you don't mind. Senator, I'm not getting
10 involved in how the meeting occurred with the
11 Regents or anybody else, but the court is making
12 a different ruling here. The court is saying
13 that once you are meeting at one house, no
14 matter where you come from, if you were to
15 require -- and that's what Warren Anderson
16 argued. Warren Anderson said you can not have a
17 session unless there is a majority of our house
18 that concur. And the court said no, no. Once
19 you have a session, you can't be in a position
20 where 35 people can frustrate a legally called
21 211-person session.
22 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Yes.
3218
1 SENATOR DALY: May I ask -- but
2 the contention I'm making, Mr. President, is
3 that this meeting is not legally called.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, that's
5 another issue. Another issue.
6 SENATOR DALY: Okay.
7 SENATOR GOLD: My last question,
8 Senator Daly, is simply this. You said, and I'm
9 glad you said it, that with regard to the
10 pension fund there are people whose lives depend
11 upon it, people who in their old age depend upon
12 it, and they shouldn't be concerned.
13 Doesn't it bother you, Senator,
14 having said that, that your Majority Leader is
15 trying to pass a bill which gives those people
16 nothing to say about it, that would create a
17 board where the Governor and the Comptroller and
18 two political leaders of the Legislature have
19 the appointments, and none of the labor
20 organizations or the municipalities are
21 involved? Isn't that directly contrary to your
22 philosophy?
23 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
3219
1 It's certainly not contrary to Senator Gold's
2 because he's about to select one who will not be
3 elected by the people.
4 SENATOR GOLD: It's according to
5 the constitution.
6 SENATOR DALY: I'm not finished
7 answering my question. No.
8 Mr. President, I do believe the
9 Comptroller will play a very vital role in that
10 group. I believe for this reason. But for
11 other reasons which I will not refer to at the
12 present time because they entail some other
13 problems that I see that I believe that a
14 commission so established would be in the best
15 interests of the people and do a better job in
16 protecting their interests.
17 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Will you
18 yield, Senator Daly?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Ohrenstein. Senator Daly, do you yield to
21 Senator Ohrenstein?
22 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
23 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: I certainly
3220
1 listened to your impassioned plea about your
2 principles and your deep belief, and I don't
3 question you.
4 SENATOR DALY: I have respect for
5 you, too, sir.
6 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Tell me how
7 come, then, if you have such intense need to
8 protect the pensioners, which we all agree on,
9 how come this house has never passed a bill
10 which would change the methodology by which that
11 protection is effectuated? Never.
12 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. I
13 wish we had. I wish we had.
14 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Why did you
15 wait -- forgive me. Why did you wait until we
16 came up with a candidate?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Ohrenstein.
19 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. I
20 did not wait.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Daly, will you yield to a question from Senator
23 Ohrenstein?
3221
1 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: I apologize.
2 SENATOR DALY: I did not wait.
3 If you will note, sir, go back in your mail, and
4 you will find out. You will find a notice that
5 we were trying to hold a hearing on exactly that
6 question. I have been talking about this thing
7 for quite a long time. You have to take my word
8 for that, but the fact that we tried to
9 establish hearings just for that very question
10 of questioning what criteria should be used in
11 the determination of how the people's money
12 should be invested.
13 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: May I ask
14 you to yield one more time?
15 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 yields.
18 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: I certainly
19 don't question your sincerity, and I don't
20 question that you called the hearing, and I
21 don't question that you sincerely wish to do
22 this. All I know is for all these years it
23 hasn't been done. Why do you think it's going
3222
1 to be done before we select the next Comptroller
2 pursuant to law?
3 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. As
4 I said, I thought, when I was speaking before
5 that truly the question of social engineering in
6 the use of pension funds has become -- has
7 become a major issue that was not there before.
8 This, above all, has caught my attention, and
9 certainly made me aware of something that
10 perhaps subconsciously I was aware of before,
11 but now I really am aware of a significant
12 problem that I can see occurring unless we take
13 action.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Lack, on the resolution.
16 SENATOR LACK: Thank you, Mr.
17 President. Senator Gold, I listened to your
18 recitation of the sentence in Anderson v.
19 Krupsak and, indeed, Senator Gold, you are
20 correct, particularly when you say "frustrate
21 the statute," and the issue in Anderson v.
22 Krupsak was not holding the joint session on the
23 day certain called for, for the election of the
3223
1 Regent, frustrated the statute.
2 So any member of this body or to
3 any body, I ask you what statute, with what day
4 certain is being frustrated using the Anderson
5 v. Krupsak doctrine for the election or
6 appointment of a new Comptroller of the state of
7 New York. Certainly not Public Officers Law
8 Section 41 which doesn't provide a day certain.
9 So it is totally distinguishable.
10 What do we have here? We have, I
11 assume -- and if the Senate Minority was not
12 included in the meetings, I guess it's because
13 your colleagues in the Assembly kept you out of
14 the loop. Well, if they kept you out of the
15 loop, I'm sorry. But, obviously, there were
16 some secret meetings that took place between the
17 Assembly and the Lieutenant Governor of this
18 state. Now, maybe you knew about it and maybe
19 you didn't know about it. But since I and only
20 some of my colleagues got a piece of paper that
21 was jointly signed by Speaker Weprin and
22 Lieutenant Governor Lundine, at least the two of
23 them knew they were signing the same piece of
3224
1 paper. I'll assume that all of you knew, as
2 well. Now, if that's the case -
3 You knew? Thank you. Senator
4 Ohrenstein and Senator Gold are indicating that
5 they knew.
6 Now, if that's the case, why was
7 Lieutenant Governor Lundine utilized?
8 Obviously, you picked up Anderson v. Krupsak
9 and said, "oh, look, we don't have to go to the
10 Senate Majority. We can, using Anderson v.
11 Krupsak, a case involving a Regent with a
12 statute that sets a day certain for a joint
13 session, utilize that and ignore, ignore the
14 Majority, ignore the Senate."
15 Now, I can't really blame Speaker
16 Weprin. He is Speaker of the Assembly. I don't
17 even know how much I can blame Lieutenant
18 Governor Lundine, because he is the Lieutenant
19 Governor and a member of the executive. But for
20 shame, my colleagues in the Senate Minority, if
21 you certainly wanted to not frustrate the
22 statute, Senator Gold, but frustrate the
23 institution of the Senate of the state of New
3225
1 York.
2 I listened to Senator Dollinger.
3 And I remember last week, Senator, in another
4 debate -- excuse me for not remembering the bill
5 -- that you prided yourself on being a
6 constitutional scholar. I am not, so you will
7 have to forgive me, Senator Dollinger, if I
8 don't get it all correctly.
9 But as I read Article IV, Section
10 6 of the constitution of the state of New York
11 as to the powers of the Lieutenant Governor, it
12 says, "He shall be the President of the Senate
13 but shall have only a casting vote therein."
14 Now, Senator Dollinger, since I'm not a
15 constitutional scholar and you are, I assume,
16 other than that sentence, you can point to me
17 some place in the constitution that further
18 defines the powers of the Lieutenant Governor in
19 terms of his ability to be President of the
20 Senate. I assume, Senator Dollinger, that you
21 can find, because I can not, some other section
22 in the constitution of the state of New York
23 which delineates the duties of the Lieutenant
3226
1 Governor, when he serves as President of the
2 Senate, other than what the sentence says after
3 the word, "but shall only have a casting vote
4 therein." Because as I read that, Senator, it
5 says, Lieutenant Governor, you can call yourself
6 President of the Senate. You can sit up there,
7 but the only thing you can do in this house is
8 have a casting vote therein.
9 And then, Senator Dollinger, as
10 we look at Article III, Section 9 of the
11 constitution, it says "Powers of Each House."
12 Let me read it for you, if I may. I know as a
13 constitutional scholar, you know it far better
14 than I do. But for those of us who are not, I'd
15 like to read it, anyway. "A majority of each
16 house shall constitute a quorum to do business.
17 Each house shall determine the rules of its own
18 proceedings and be the judge of election returns
19 and qualification of its own members; shall
20 choose its own officers," oh boy, "and the
21 Senate shall choose a Temporary President, and
22 the Assembly shall choose a Speaker."
23 I got a piece of paper
3227
1 yesterday. On one side was the signature block
2 of the Speaker of the New York State Assembly.
3 On the other side was the Lieutenant Governor
4 purporting to act as President of the Senate.
5 No, I won't yield right now,
6 Senator. You will get your time in a moment.
7 Purporting to act as President of
8 the Senate. I can only assume by that that
9 somebody or some bodies made a decision that
10 equates the powers of the Speaker of the New
11 York State Assembly with that of the President
12 of the New York State Senate. That, Senator, is
13 not my reading of the constitution, specifically
14 where it says the Assembly shall choose a
15 Speaker and the Senate shall choose a Temporary
16 President. Obviously, and this was last done in
17 1938 and amended in 1963, so obviously in our
18 last two constitutional conventions, both, this
19 particular section was looked at. Obviously,
20 the framers of that section of the constitution
21 were equating the Speaker of the Assembly with
22 the Temporary President of the Senate, and it's
23 those two signatures that are required to cause
3228
1 a joint meeting to both houses.
2 Obviously, since Senator
3 Ohrenstein and Senator Gold were part of the
4 papers and the meetings that were then sent to
5 every member of the house, you all would agree
6 that to have a joint meeting of the Assembly and
7 the Senate, the Senate has to be called to that
8 meeting. And I defy any of you to show me where
9 in the constitution it is the power of the
10 Lieutenant Governor of this state, acting as
11 President of the Senate but only doing a casting
12 vote therein, it gives him the power to call a
13 joint session involving this house and
14 encumbering the majority of the members of this
15 house to a meeting. Wherein, Senator Gold, if
16 it actually did take place and everybody was
17 there, conceivably there would be an arguable
18 precedent as to Anderson v. Krupsak, but it's
19 not taking place.
20 It's not taking place because
21 we're not there, and we've announced we're not
22 going. And it's not out of disrespect to Carl
23 McCall. It's out of disrespect to the manner by
3229
1 which the Democrats in the Senate and the
2 Assembly and obviously in the executive decided
3 to call the meeting. There was no announcement
4 by Speaker Weprin, "Senator Marino is refusing
5 to come to a meeting, therefore, I have to look
6 for an alternative to have a joint session in
7 order to get Carl McCall installed as
8 Comptroller of the state of New York as soon as
9 possible."
10 I have been up here all week.
11 Did I miss that press release? Did I miss that
12 statement from the Speaker in which he said we
13 can not deal with the Senate Majority Leader;
14 therefore, I have to look for alternative
15 means?
16 Senator Ohrenstein, did you call
17 the Senate Majority Leader and say, "I have been
18 informed by the Speaker that the houses cannot
19 reach agreement on when or how to have a joint
20 session; and, therefore, we are looking for
21 alternative means?"
22 Senator Gold, did you? Both of
23 you have indicated you knew about this manner by
3230
1 which this session was going to take place.
2 Did anybody bother to call the
3 Senate Majority Leader and say, "You're being
4 obstructionist; you're not acting in good faith,
5 you are not doing anything; you are not coming
6 to a joint session that we want to call on
7 Wednesday?"
8 No. No. All you did is tiptoe
9 in secrecy in to the Lieutenant Governor and
10 say, "Here, Lieutenant Governor Lundine. Sign
11 this piece of paper and we'll Xerox it, and
12 we'll send it to everybody, ha-ha-ha. They're
13 going to come to a joint session."
14 And that's what this session this
15 evening, unfortunately, at 11:15, is about
16 because of the procedures you felt like adopting
17 as you, thinking this is some kind of unicameral
18 Legislature that we're going to be called into
19 joint session without proper action involving
20 the Senate.
21 There's nobody in this Senate
22 that is objecting to a proper call for a joint
23 session. Nobody is not acknowledging. We've
3231
1 all read the newspapers. We all know how to
2 count. We've all waited with baited breath,
3 just as you have for Speaker Weprin to announce
4 his choice as Comptroller of the state of New
5 York. We understand that. We're not saying we
6 wouldn't be there. We're just saying that in
7 order to be there, you're got to agree with the
8 Senate and call a proper joint session.
9 So it's not woe be unto us that
10 we're trying to damage the credit rating of the
11 state of New York. We didn't slink into the
12 Lieutenant Governor's office and hand him a
13 piece of paper to surreptitiously sign and to be
14 secretly Xeroxed and sent to only some of the
15 members in the Majority, but not all, in this
16 house. That was not our doing. That was your
17 doing, or at least your participation in how it
18 was done.
19 We stand ready under proper call
20 and to preserve the integrity of this
21 institution, the Senate of New York, to have a
22 joint session with the Assembly and to elect the
23 next Comptroller. And we're all here and ready
3232
1 to do just that but under the procedures that
2 are proper for this house, not just for you but
3 for this house, all of us, you and us.
4 And when that happens, we're
5 happy to have a joint session. Until then,
6 you're right, there is a problem. There is a
7 problem because this resolution says, in our
8 opinion, the confirmation of a Comptroller not
9 called as to a proper call for a joint session
10 is without legal merit and is null and void; and
11 further, that actions taken by that person,
12 regardless of who he or she may be, is without
13 legal effect. And yes, that raises some very
14 serious legal questions, and I would hope
15 serious enough legal questions that Speaker
16 Weprin and Minority Leader Ohrenstein would cut
17 it out, would cut it out, and say to the
18 Temporary President, the duly elected Temporary
19 President pursuant to the constitution of the
20 state of New York of the New York State Senate,
21 "Let's have a proper joint session." Let's get
22 together. Let's have that session, and let's
23 elect, according to the rules of the joint
3233
1 session, a new Comptroller of the state of New
2 York that all of us can take pride in that it
3 was properly done, not slinking around and doing
4 it behind closed doors in secret.
5 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Tully, why do you rise?
8 SENATOR TULLY: Will Senator Lack
9 yield?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Lack, will you yield?
12 SENATOR LACK: Yes, Senator
13 Tully.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 yields.
16 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you,
17 Senator. Mr. President. Senator Lack, you are
18 familiar with the resolution before us this
19 evening?
20 SENATOR LACK: Yes, I am.
21 SENATOR TULLY: Is there anything
22 in the resolution dealing with a vacancy on the
23 Board of Regents?
3234
1 SENATOR LACK: No, Senator, there
2 is not.
3 SENATOR TULLY: Does it deal with
4 a joint session for the purpose of filling a
5 vacancy in the office of state Comptroller?
6 SENATOR LACK: Yes, pursuant to
7 Section 41 of the Public Officers Law and the
8 constitution of the state of New York.
9 SENATOR TULLY: Senator Lack, I
10 know you are familiar with the rules of the
11 Senate, are you not?
12 SENATOR LACK: Yes.
13 SENATOR TULLY: There was some
14 reference made earlier to the effect that we
15 should respect the law as members of this body.
16 Some reference was made, I take it, that we also
17 respect the rules of this house.
18 SENATOR LACK: Correct, Senator.
19 SENATOR TULLY: Are you familiar
20 with the rules of this house?
21 SENATOR LACK: Yes, I am.
22 SENATOR TULLY: Did you know,
23 Senator Lack, that you previously made reference
3235
1 to the state constitution and the powers of the
2 Lieutenant Governor in this house, and did you
3 know that in Rule I, Section 1, exactly what you
4 mentioned in the state constitution is contained
5 here in the rules of the house; that the
6 Lieutenant Governor of the state shall be
7 President of the Senate but shall only have a
8 casting vote therein? Did you know that,
9 Senator?
10 SENATOR LACK: Yes, I did,
11 Senator.
12 SENATOR TULLY: I am glad that
13 everyone else knows it now, too.
14 Thank you, Senator.
15 SENATOR LACK: Thank you,
16 Senator.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will Senator
18 Lack yield?
19 SENATOR LACK: Yes, Senator
20 Dollinger.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The provision
22 of the constitution that you cited, Senator
23 Lack, and the provision that was just read by
3236
1 Senator Tully, as I understand it, under your
2 interpretation, provides that the only thing in
3 the Senate the Lieutenant Governor can do is
4 cast a vote in the case of a tie. Is that
5 correct?
6 SENATOR LACK: That is the
7 provision I read, Article IV, Section 6.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Just
9 for my edification, and the question is, where
10 does he get the authority to preside at the
11 meetings?
12 SENATOR LACK: Excuse me?
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where does he
14 get that authority, do you know?
15 SENATOR LACK: It's in our rules
16 and which he can do as President of the Senate.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It's also
18 contained in the New York State constitution, is
19 it not?
20 SENATOR LACK: Only the -- well,
21 Senator, I quoted you the one sentence in the
22 New York State constitution. I acknowledged -
23 wait a minute, Senator, I'll finish the answer.
3237
1 I acknowledged your status as a
2 constitutional scholar and asked if you knew any
3 other sentence in the constitution that pertains
4 to the powers of the Lieutenant Governor other
5 than that sentence. Since I only know that one
6 sentence, unless you know something I don't,
7 that's the sentence.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My question
9 again, Mr. President, through you.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Do you
11 continue to yield, Senator Lack?
12 SENATOR LACK: Yes.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where does he
14 get the power to wield the gavel in this
15 chamber?
16 SENATOR LACK: From the rules
17 adopted by this house.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And they are
19 identical to the constitution, are they not?
20 SENATOR LACK: Excuse me?
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: They are
22 identical to the constitution, are they not?
23 SENATOR LACK: No, the rules are
3238
1 not identical to the constitution. The only
2 thing that's identical to the constitution is
3 the section Senator Tully just quoted to me
4 which quotes in our own rules the constitution.
5 Other than that, our rules are our rules. I
6 believe Rule II would help you.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator Lack
8 yield?
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Lack, do you continue to yield?
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You are not
12 aware of anything that further restricts any
13 power the Lieutenant Governor would have as the
14 presiding officer of this chamber, are you?
15 SENATOR LACK: Yes. The rules of
16 this chamber restrict the power of the
17 Lieutenant Governor.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again,
19 through you, Mr. President. Can you just tell
20 me what specific rule?
21 SENATOR LACK: Rule II and every
22 rule restricts the powers of the Lieutenant
23 Governor as to how he shall preside, what he
3239
1 shall do. Senator Dollinger, this could really
2 probably go on. We've had all sorts of
3 challenges. There are bodies of law based on
4 precedent and rulings by Lieutenant Governors
5 which bind them as presiding officers, et
6 cetera. There are all sorts of -- there are
7 ways in which Robert's Rules of Order when there
8 is no specific rule takes over, and it requires
9 the conduct of this house. There are all sorts
10 of rules. There were even proper dress codes
11 which existed at one time in this Senate, which
12 obviously are not followed now for which I
13 assume the Lieutenant Governor, acting as
14 President and standing up there, threw somebody
15 out of the chamber because they weren't in a
16 morning coat or something.
17 But, in any event, Senator, it's
18 all done through the rules of this chamber
19 which, by the way, Senator, is adopted by this
20 chamber.
21 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Tully, why do you rise?
3240
1 SENATOR TULLY: Will Senator Lack
2 yield?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Lack, will you yield to Senator Tully?
5 Senator yields.
6 SENATOR TULLY: Senator Lack, is
7 there anything in the rules of the Senate that
8 gives the Lieutenant Governor the right to
9 convene a joint session of the Senate and the
10 Assembly?
11 SENATOR LACK: No, Senator. In
12 my opinion that would violate Article III,
13 Section 9, of the constitution.
14 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you,
15 Senator.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Padavan, why do you rise?
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Debate began at
19 9:22. If I look at that clock, it's 11:22. I'm
20 therefore moving to close debate.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes,
23 Senator Gold, why do you rise?
3241
1 SENATOR GOLD: Just to really
2 urge Senator Padavan not to do it. Because if
3 we are really going to go that way when there is
4 just a few more people to speak, that motion is
5 going to take a slow roll call with everybody
6 explaining their vote, and it would be a lot
7 longer than just letting this important debate
8 go to a natural conclusion.
9 I don't want to do that, Senator
10 Padavan. People have spoken and have had the
11 attention of the floor, and they've done what
12 they've got to do. I would like to respect the
13 people who may be on that list who haven't done
14 it. So I'm asking you as a gentleman to
15 withdraw that request.
16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Padavan, this is a motion that's made if you
19 continue to offer it that is non-debatable. You
20 understand that.
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Exactly. And
22 what I would like to suggest, Mr. President,
23 having made the motion, that while it's true
3242
1 that during the course of a vote, members will
2 have an opportunity, Senator, to speak as they
3 obviously have the right to do. However, it's
4 not my desire to prevent anybody from being
5 heard, but I do feel that this issue has been
6 discussed fully.
7 I will withdraw my motion, but I
8 do reserve the right to present it again.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Appreciate the
10 courtesy.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
12 Continuing on the list, the next speaker that
13 the Chair has is Senator Galiber.
14 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, Mr.
15 President. I will attempt to be brief.
16 This is a sad evening and almost
17 a very sad morning for us. Senator Daly, you
18 talked about the house. There are those of us
19 here like Senator Marchi and a few others of us
20 who remember when this house was truly a home.
21 That doesn't exist any longer.
22 I'm concerned about gimmicks.
23 I'm concerned with what type of message we will
3243
1 be sending out to this great state of ours.
2 Senator, we know that this cauldron of racism
3 does, in fact, exist in this great state of
4 ours. You just pick up the papers any day, any
5 day of the week, and you can see this.
6 But can you imagine the message
7 that we are sending to New York State residents?
8 That here for the first time in the history of
9 our state, we have a man of color, with dignity
10 and distinction, a man who is a minister, a man
11 who was an ambassador, a man who shared this
12 chamber with us with dignity when it was, in
13 fact, a home, a man who was president of the
14 board of education, a man who is vice-president
15 of one of our major institutions, banking
16 institutions, in this state.
17 Troubles me, Senator Marchi,
18 troubles me, colleagues. The message that is
19 attached to it, that when this man and those who
20 believe, that work hard to make a success of
21 yourself and we will adopt you and we'll see to
22 it that you progress, we're sending a message if
23 your skin color isn't white, we're going to
3244
1 change the rules and that's what we're
2 attempting to do here, change the rules.
3 I'll leave the constitutional
4 arguments to those who are better qualified to
5 do so, but I've been here long enough to know
6 that we can use arguments as shields or swords.
7 Constitution included. We can either hide
8 behind it or we can cut you up with it, and I
9 fear that these arguments tonight will be
10 interpreted merely as just loose conversation by
11 those here in this house and the other house.
12 But to the general population, what it's going
13 to mean that this body, this institution, is
14 saying to the entire state of New York, to those
15 who slowly come through the system, that if you
16 make it we're going to change the rules.
17 That is my feeling, and racism is
18 something that we throw around from time to time
19 and like sexism and age-ism, it's tough to
20 accept and collectively this will be interpreted
21 as a racist act and racism is a pejorative
22 adjective which calls on some bad connotations.
23 It says that those of a certain race believe
3245
1 that their race is better than some other race.
2 It differs from racial discrimination. Racial
3 discrimination is a mere practice, a practice of
4 something that you do not like, and I speak to
5 you because I love most of you. I used to love
6 you all, but some have become so ugly I can't
7 find any love any longer. But most of you I
8 do.
9 I would like to sit in, if you
10 will, not tap your conversation, those who stick
11 their chest out and say "I'm not this" and "I'm
12 not that," just to sit in on your conference,
13 but not the skin color, neutral, and to hear
14 what you say about those of us on this side of
15 the aisle who are with color and when the good
16 Majority Leader -- good friend and love him -
17 suggests that this has been out for three or
18 four days, the fact that we were going to object
19 and Senator Gold hit it on the head when he said
20 that you are shrewd political persons, not
21 politicians, shrewd political persons.
22 I know how to put something out
23 if we know the count, if there's going to be two
3246
1 or three persons in that race, you can put it
2 out very easily, the message, colleagues, that
3 we're sending out is so horrible, so very
4 horrible. I sat here and listened and I was
5 going to waive, very frankly, but I was hoping
6 that something would come out in the course of
7 the discussion, of the debate, because there's
8 one or two alternatives here.
9 Either you are bitter enders, but
10 you're sore losers, as you know, because you've
11 been in the Majority so long that you don't know
12 how it feels to be in the Minority. I've been
13 here 20-some-odd years in a double minority,
14 black and a Democrat. You don't know, and I was
15 hoping that as this debate went on, that we
16 would really be able to accuse you of being
17 bitter enders. It hasn't developed that way.
18 Unfortunately, how it has
19 developed that you are sending a message out
20 with a qualified person, with all the
21 credentials and all the background who incident
22 ally happens to be black African-American.
23 You're sending out a message. When it gets into
3247
1 the position where that person gets in or she
2 gets into a position, let's change the rules.
3 Colleagues, the battle ribbons of
4 earlier wars will not win the battles of the
5 day. Things are changing, and we are negatively
6 contributing to the racism that exists in this
7 state of ours and our country, in our cities
8 where racial hatred has all of a sudden sprung
9 up again. You're ig... pardon me; you're
10 ignoring this factor, through the children that
11 are not being educated who listen to us.
12 The daughters day last week,
13 wouldn't it be shameful if those daughters that
14 we brought here last week were sitting here this
15 week? What a shame! What a shame! The old TV
16 program we see in New York, Shame on You, Shame
17 on You. Because of the message.
18 So, Senator Daly, I recall when
19 this house was a home, when this house was a
20 home, when the Earl Brydges and the ghosts of
21 Brydges and the ghosts of Zaretzki and the
22 ghosts of other leaders here floating around
23 tonight, and they're saying the same as I am
3248
1 saying. Shame on the institution, because
2 that's what this was, an institution.
3 It is no longer that. It is
4 little tricks of groups of persons, and I've
5 always said this, and I still say this,
6 individually I have not a problem with anyone on
7 that side and a few on this side. It's
8 collectively where I have the problem,
9 collectively, because collectively we do some
10 bad things.
11 So, ladies and gentlemen and
12 colleagues, this is a sad, sad day because all
13 these things that I have mentioned do exist.
14 Racism is alive and doing well. Racial
15 discrimination is still a practice and doing
16 horrible, and to hide behind some procedural
17 process, a Constitution -- when, for heaven's
18 sake, have we ever been concerned in the 25
19 years that I've been here about a Constitution?
20 We say, Let's pass it and test it. If need be,
21 we'll amend it.
22 Why is it then, colleagues, that
23 when we have a qualified person, a minister, an
3249
1 ambassador, a former colleague, a president of a
2 bank, president of a board of education, we
3 can't say, let's put him in and then let's go to
4 court. Why can't we do that? Know why?
5 Because, unfortunately, it wasn't the first
6 thought that I would believe that you were just
7 suffering because you were in the minority, you
8 won't do it because of the nature of the person
9 who is to be put in there, and that's the
10 horrible message, whether in your heart's heart,
11 you mean to do so or no, the message that you
12 are sending is a horrible, horrible message for
13 the future.
14 Please, colleagues, if this is
15 not the way you wish to go, put him in. Then go
16 to court and at least that would be following
17 the same procedure that you have talked to or
18 talked about so very long.
19 Thank you for your time.
20 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator Galiber
21 yield?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Galiber, will you yield to Senator Velella?
3250
1 SENATOR GALIBER: Colleague from
2 Westchester County any time.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 yields.
5 SENATOR VELELLA: From Bronx
6 County, Senator; let's not forget our roots.
7 SENATOR GALIBER: You're the one
8 who forgot my roots last time, not me.
9 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, I'm a
10 little surprised at what I hear you saying to
11 night and I'd like to ask you this question: Do
12 you honestly in your heart believe that the
13 colleagues you've spoken about individually on
14 this side of the aisle who occasionally have
15 helped you along and some of your other
16 colleagues on that side of the aisle actually
17 made the decision based on Carl McCall's race
18 that they were going to take this action, or do
19 you believe it would have happened either way?
20 SENATOR GALIBER: I'm saying that
21 individually I would be even further saddened if
22 we can pick out individuals, at least those who
23 are quiet about it, individuals again I'm not
3251
1 too concerned about, but collectively, because,
2 Senator, what you have really said is that some
3 of my best friends are, haven't we helped you?
4 SENATOR VELELLA: Therefore -
5 SENATOR GALIBER: Let me finish.
6 You asked a question; let me finish, and that's
7 an old lousy cliche of purposes -- persons who
8 don't understand. Some of my best friends are
9 -- I have a next door neighbor, I can eke out a
10 little love, but not when you come next door to
11 me, live down the block.
12 Whether you help me or not, it's
13 been a mutual understanding. I've tried to help
14 you; I don't mean you personally but in the
15 general sense. We don't have the votes over
16 here to help you. We don't have the votes.
17 Senator, I mean we won't get into
18 it. We went to a committee meeting today and
19 they said, Where does non-participation -- I'm
20 running off a little bit -- and they say this is
21 the last day, next week, for bills. I looked at
22 the calendar, there is not a Democratic bill
23 there in all the committees.
3252
1 You had -
2 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, that
3 was white and black Democrats, correct?
4 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator -
5 SENATOR VELELLA: White and black
6 Democrats didn't have any bills on; right?
7 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, wait
8 until I finish. I can't out-talk you.
9 SENATOR VELELLA: Yeah.
10 SENATOR GALIBER: Maybe I can,
11 yeah, but let me finish. Let me finish.
12 The fact of the matter is that
13 was all a bit off the track. But there's not a
14 participatory involvement here.
15 But back to your question.
16 Senator, I'm not talking individually. If the
17 shoe fits, wear it. Secondly, I'm your best
18 friend, but don't use me as a black, say some of
19 my best friends are, I've helped you and it
20 borders -- borders on being racist. Borders,
21 not actually but borders, comes closer to racial
22 discrimination perhaps.
23 I hope that answers your
3253
1 question, Senator.
2 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator,
3 I'm going to try to ask it a different way.
4 SENATOR GALIBER: Please do.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Do you
6 continue to yield, Senator Galiber?
7 SENATOR GALIBER: Sure.
8 SENATOR VELELLA: Do you believe
9 that the same action would have been taken by
10 the Majority in this house had Carol Bellamy
11 been the nominee, or do you really believe that
12 it's only because it's Carl McCall?
13 SENATOR GALIBER: I believe, very
14 frankly, that the procedure that you're taking
15 now could have very well have happened as far as
16 Carol Bellamy is concerned.
17 SENATOR VELELLA: Thank you,
18 Senator.
19 SENATOR GALIBER: Very welcome.
20 SENATOR VELELLA: That's the only
21 point I want to make, Senator. That's the
22 point. I appreciate that answer.
23 SENATOR GALIBER: It just becomes
3254
1 a question of intensity. I would have argued,
2 very frankly, argued the same way only from
3 another vantage point, because I'm certainly not
4 female.
5 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, how
6 about one more question, Senator?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
8 me, Senator Galiber, Senator Velella. Senator
9 Galiber, do you continue to yield?
10 SENATOR VELELLA: One last
11 question.
12 SENATOR GALIBER: No, no, no.
13 When you snap your finger, I interpret that as
14 doubting what I am and, since you snapped your
15 finger, I don't want to yield to you right now.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 refuses...
18 SENATOR VELELLA: I snapped my
19 finger?
20 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes, you snapped
21 your fingers.
22 SENATOR VELELLA: That was just a
23 thought I -
3255
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Velella, Senator Galiber.
3 SENATOR GALIBER: Oh, if that's a
4 thought, fine, Senator, go right ahead, ask the
5 question.
6 SENATOR VELELLA: No, I went like
7 that; I don't know whatever -- I think maybe -
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Galiber, gentlemen, let's get a little order
10 here.
11 SENATOR GALIBER: I can't hear
12 him.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Please,
14 through the Chair. Senator Velella.
15 SENATOR VELELLA: Would you yield?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Galiber, Senator Velella is asking if you
18 yield. Do you yield, sir?
19 SENATOR GALIBER: Oh, sure.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 yields.
22 SENATOR VELELLA: You've
23 indicated you made the speech for Carl McCall,
3256
1 and you probably would have made the same speech
2 for Carol Bellamy because she might have been
3 discriminated against by our side for other
4 prejudicial reasons in your mind.
5 How about Joey Lentol, would you
6 have made the same speech if we took that action
7 for Joey Lentol?
8 SENATOR GALIBER: I can only deal
9 in the world of reality. There were two
10 contenders. Whether I would have talked the
11 same way for Joey Lentol -
12 SENATOR VELELLA: I think my
13 point is well made, Senator. You're asking for
14 preferential treatment, in my opinion.
15 SENATOR GALIBER: Most of my
16 friends who have racial tendencies usually use
17 either "my best friends are", or your argument.
18 Any other questions?
19 Thank you for your time, Mr.
20 President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
22 recognizes Senator Leichter.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: I pass.
3257
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Leichter passes.
3 Senator Connor.
4 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you.
5 Thank you, Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank
7 you, Senator Leichter.
8 SENATOR CONNOR: I will be very,
9 very brief, but I have a few thoughts and I'll
10 try not to repeat anything that's so -- I -- I
11 feel superbly elucidated by the Minority Leader,
12 Deputy Minority Leader and my colleagues here.
13 But I'll give you a couple thoughts.
14 You say how can this Senate meet
15 anywhere without a Majority voting to do so or
16 the Temporary President acting? Well, you know,
17 we all take an oath. We swear to uphold the
18 Constitution of the state of New York and to
19 follow its laws. We read the Constitution and
20 every two years after an election, the
21 Constitution tells us we have to be up here on a
22 Wednesday early in January. We all get here.
23 We don't have a Majority Leader then. We don't
3258
1 have a Secretary of the Senate. We don't have a
2 Sergeant-of-Arms. But we arrive here and when
3 31 people show up, the Lt. Governor pounds the
4 gavel, not by leave of a Majority Leader, not by
5 leave of any other official in this Senate. He
6 stands up there, when he sees 31 members, he
7 calls the session to order because the
8 Constitution makes him the presiding officer,
9 and the Constitution says we ought to meet and
10 certainly a quorum of this body recognizes their
11 own responsibility as Senators to come to the
12 meeting, come to the session and then, when
13 we've come together in a quorum and the Lt.
14 Governor has called us to order, only after that
15 do we adopt rules, elect a Majority Leader,
16 elect a Sergeant-of-Arms, elect a Secretary and
17 have officers as a house, and for those first
18 few days in January, this Senator has -- this
19 Senate has but one officer, the Lt. Governor.
20 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Daly.
23 SENATOR CONNOR: When I'm
3259
1 finished, Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He
3 refuses to yield.
4 SENATOR CONNOR: Now, just the
5 thought, you know, before there's a Majority,
6 there's a Senate, you know. Someone said
7 earlier we've got this notice commanding us to
8 go. Well, no one in this state or in this
9 Legislature has gotten a notice commanding
10 anything since they threw out George III.
11 You got an announcement putting
12 you on notice that legislators are meeting, and
13 you know what? If less than 106 members show up,
14 I agree there's no meeting, but you all know
15 where it is. You all got a notice of the time
16 and place, just like you get from reading the
17 Constitution. Nobody sends you a letter and
18 says you got to be here in January, you know
19 that's the day, and if a quorum shows up, you
20 have a legal meeting, and I suggest to you that
21 if a quorum doesn't show up tomorrow, you don't
22 have a legal meeting. If a quorum does show up
23 you do have a legal meeting, and the fact of the
3260
1 matter is that's what the notice is, an attempt
2 to let everybody know, if enough people show up,
3 if everybody shows up we do have a meeting and
4 nobody is excluded. Every member can show up.
5 Now, we hear all this stuff.
6 Now, I've been ranking member on the Civil
7 Service and Pensions Committee for fifteen and a
8 half years now and you know last year the Rules
9 Committee, not at the behest of anyone on this
10 side of the aisle, but last year the Rules
11 Committee put in this bill -- your Rules
12 Committee; Senator Marino is the chair, I
13 believe -- put in a bill providing for a board
14 to make the investment decisions of the pension
15 fund.
16 What did you provide in your
17 bill? The Comptroller would be on it, three
18 appointees by the Governor, confirmed by the
19 Senate, who represent labor unions and three
20 appointees by the Governor, confirmed by the
21 Senate, who represent management, you know, the
22 counties, state government, the people on the
23 other side of the aisle -- other side of the
3261
1 bargaining relationship.
2 This was your bill last year,
3 your bill, and we know year after year after
4 year virtually every year of Ned Regan's reign
5 there, the Assembly passed a bill saying, Hey, a
6 sole trustee, 52-, $55 billion.
7 Let's have some collective wisdom
8 there, let's give representatives of the workers
9 whose pension money it is, and of the localities
10 and the state government who put the money in
11 there pursuant to negotiating and the pension
12 plans that we enact, let's give them all a say,
13 and then we hear in the last few days that you
14 want to entrust our workers' pensions to the
15 appointees, not by confirmation of the Senate,
16 not officers appointed by the Governor confirmed
17 by the Sen- ate, which gives a certain
18 independence to an officer, but to the
19 designees, the represent- atives of the Speaker,
20 the Majority Leader and the Governor, the three
21 people who balance our budgets every year, the
22 three people who frantically look around for a
23 couple hundred million dollars here and there,
3262
1 the people who sold bridges, highways and
2 prisons to balance the budgets.
3 My colleagues, do you really want
4 to give -- and I don't -- I don't refer to
5 Speaker Weprin or Senator Marino or Governor
6 Cuomo, institutionally. Do you want to give
7 whoever holds those three offices the right to
8 invest $55 billion in our workers' money?
9 They'll invest in prisons. They'll buy highways
10 from the state. They'll buy toll bridges from
11 the state. Ah, what a great investment, a cash
12 cow. Oh, gee, they bought the bridge for
13 several hundred million dollars; the budget is
14 balanced this year.
15 Do you really want to do that? Do
16 you think the people of this state want you to
17 do that? Do you think the workers and pension
18 participants want you to do that? Do you think
19 the unions want you to do it? You think your
20 counties trust you to do that, to give those
21 three officers with their designee, you know,
22 hire and fire him if he doesn't do what you
23 want? Do you really think there's any public
3263
1 support? Do you think there's a economist, a
2 financial manager on Wall Street, is there a
3 sane person in this state who wants to give
4 those three people $55 billion to invest?
5 It's incredible. I can't believe
6 it, and that's not an aspersion on them. They
7 have other responsibilities like balancing the
8 budget. Gee, we're a billion dollars short.
9 Just think how easy those billion and two
10 billion and three billion shortfalls would have
11 been if the people who cut up those budgets had
12 control of $55 billion dollars.
13 What did we do last year? Let's
14 see, we made the Port Authority buy a parking
15 lot from the racing, told them they had to sell
16 it or we'd fire them, and we sold some highways
17 and prisons. You think about that.
18 Senator Daly is worried about
19 whether the prudent investor standards are going
20 to apply to the incoming sole trustee. I ask
21 you, does anyone think the prudent investment
22 standard applies to this Legislature and its
23 leaders when they have to balance the budgets?
3264
1 Or the Governor?
2 Now, I -- by the way, Senator
3 Daly, I sat through those hearings and I heard
4 all the leading candidates say, repeatedly,
5 while they would have certain concerns, McBride
6 principles, South African investment, things
7 that we told the Comptroller he or she has to
8 take a look at, things that this body has told
9 them, they all said when asked questions about
10 social engineering with the pension funds, My
11 first obligation is to get a return, and they
12 said things like when people say, Well, what
13 about environment, they said, Listen, of course,
14 you have to look at that, because is it a
15 prudent investment to invest in a corporation
16 that's out there polluting the environment and
17 potentially liable for billions of dollars in
18 damages? They would look at it from the
19 standpoint is that a good investment? Are you
20 going to get -- is the money safe? Are you going
21 to get a good return on that? Not from the
22 standpoint of we're making a moral judgment and
23 shut them off because they pollute.
3265
1 You have to agree, you want to
2 invest your money in a polluter, go ahead,
3 you're not going to get much of a return down
4 the road. They all adhered, including Mr.
5 McCall, they adhered strictly to that fiduciary
6 responsibility. We're not talking about a
7 social engineer here, and anybody who sees
8 spectres of that with respect to the pension
9 money and, at the same time supports letting the
10 real social engineers, the Governor, the
11 Speaker, the Majority Leader, have control of
12 all this money, isn't thinking too clearly.
13 You know, you can say, Well, the
14 Constitution -- we agree the Constitution says
15 this is the body that does it, but there's no
16 time limit. There's no time limit. Is our
17 standard under our oath of office to uphold the
18 Constitution?
19 I mean that we uphold the
20 Constitution, but only when there's a time
21 limit? You know, we'll do our duty but only when
22 they have a date there. If they don't have a
23 date in the law, we don't have to do our duty.
3266
1 We can slink away from it. We can duck it. We
2 can stall. We can wait months and, you see,
3 you're worried, you know, but this is a bad
4 precedent.
5 What about the precedent? What
6 about the precedent of conceding that in a
7 divided Legislature, one house can refuse to
8 meet until they're good and ready? Isn't the
9 precedent then, Well, what do you want this
10 time? Three, four weeks.
11 Well, isn't that a precedent for
12 three or four months in some future Legislature
13 and isn't that a precedent for waiting a year?
14 Gee, we like the guy who's acting Comptroller
15 better than the guy the other folks might
16 elect.
17 You see, if you're worried about
18 precedent, then the only precedent you have to
19 establish is the Constitution says "shall", the
20 statute says "shall", and that means you shall
21 do it with some degree of immediacy and somebody
22 -- look, if the date was real inconvenient and
23 the Speaker or the Lt. Governor invited the
3267
1 Legislature to join, you wouldn't get a quorum.
2 If it was such a bad day, you worried about it
3 falling on a midnight, Saturday night, don't
4 worry about it, lot of people won't show up.
5 They won't have a meeting, but the Constitution
6 has to mean something, and it has to mean it
7 with some reasonable degree of immediacy.
8 You know, if it's O.K. to let the
9 office be vacant for a few weeks or months
10 whatever, then why did the people who wrote the
11 Constitution use that language, "shall appoint"
12 a comptroller? Why does the statute say that?
13 What you would urge would frustrate the very
14 purpose of the stat... of the Constitution.
15 Its very purpose is not to let
16 the vacancy go to the end of the term, not to
17 let somebody else automatically succeed to the
18 office. These things are done elsewhere in law
19 and, if the -- if the framers of the
20 Constitution and the people who enacted it -
21 the people enacted this Constitution, the voters
22 -- if they had meant to let it drift, then they
23 wouldn't have said what they said. They had to
3268
1 mean something when they said it, and we have an
2 obligation to do our best and not to let things
3 go.
4 Well, that's not very courteous
5 to this house or that's not very nice to me or
6 it's embarrassing to me, stand in the way of
7 your constitutional duties. The Majority of
8 this house has a right, if they feel they
9 haven't been adequately consulted to say, We're
10 insulted, we don't like this, you'll hear about
11 more of this later. But I don't think you have
12 a right to say, Aha! We weren't treated
13 properly. We weren't accorded the respect we're
14 entitled to, so, therefore, we don't have to do
15 our constitutional duty until somebody pays
16 proper respects to us. I don't think that's
17 right, my colleagues.
18 I understand, so you feel
19 insulted. So you're insulted. You know, I get
20 insulted as a member of the Minority,
21 institutionally insulted, constantly in this
22 place for years. I don't take the attitude,
23 well, they're insulting me so I don't have to
3269
1 show up at session and I don't have to vote on
2 things because they're insulting me and I'm not
3 going.
4 You know, you can't -- the remedy
5 for what you perceive to be the insult to you
6 that you would impose is far extreme and I don't
7 think it's permissible. We all have a duty to
8 follow the Constitution, and I think that to say
9 in the face of the Constitution which lets the
10 Lt. Governor preside, that he's strictly a
11 member of the executive, he's a hybrid. That
12 office is a hybrid and it was written that way
13 in the Constitution and that had to mean
14 something and, as I say, we come here every two
15 years, and he's the only person standing up
16 there with any authority to pound the gavel on
17 that day.
18 So I would urge all of you, I
19 think -- I think you make a terrible mistake in
20 the Majority here if you say, Well, we're not
21 going to agree this time. We're mad, so we
22 won't go to the meeting. I don't think the
23 public will accept that. I don't think the
3270
1 public that adopted and supports this
2 Constitution will view that as a legitimate
3 response to whatever you perceive to be the
4 insult to -- to the Majority in this house in
5 not being consulted one way or the other.
6 So I would urge all of you, it's
7 getting late. I have to get up in time to be at
8 the meeting at 10:30 in the morning, and I would
9 urge all of you to be there and help us adopt
10 the rules, help us elect a Comptroller. Help us
11 fulfill the collective responsibility of the
12 Legislature under the Constitution and laws to
13 make this appointment.
14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Padavan, why do you rise?
17 Senator Daly, why do you rise?
18 SENATOR DALY: I would ask
19 Senator Connor to yield to one question.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Connor, do you yield? He does, Senator Daly.
22 SENATOR DALY: Just one
23 question. Going back to your original comments
3271
1 on the powers of the Lt. Governor, Mr.
2 President, will the Senator tell me if the -- in
3 this chamber at that time, and the Lt. Governor
4 is calling to order the first time has the right
5 or the power, not the right, the power to pass
6 one bill or make one appointment outside this
7 house?
8 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, I don't
9 understand your question, frankly.
10 SENATOR DALY: Maybe he doesn't
11 want to answer it. May I repeat the question?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Continue
13 to yield.
14 SENATOR DALY: Senator was
15 talking about the power of the Lt. Governor.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Connor.
18 SENATOR DALY: I'm asking him one
19 question. On reconvening on the first day, the
20 Lt. Governor is up there and before we select
21 our Majority Leader, can this house pass one
22 bill or make one appointment?
23 SENATOR CONNOR: No, but it can
3272
1 convene when the Lt. Governor pounds the gavel.
2 The Lt. Governor has the power to preside and he
3 has a casting vote which I've researched back to
4 the 1890s; it was a fashionable term which
5 political scientists used when they wrote the
6 Meiji constitution in Japan in 1890, and
7 modernized it, they used the identical language
8 for the president.
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Padavan.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Padavan, why do you rise?
14 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'm now
15 requesting that the two-hour limit be imposed
16 and that the debate be terminated.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Padavan has made a motion to limit debate. The
19 motion is non-debatable, non-amendable. So the
20 Secretary will call the roll on the motion to
21 curtail debate. Call the question on the
22 resolution. Call the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the
3273
1 roll. ).
2 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Party vote
3 in the negative.
4 SENATOR PRESENT: Party vote in
5 the affirmative.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the
7 question of limiting debate, party vote in the
8 negative.
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 35, nays 25,
10 party vote.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 debate is ended.
13 On the resolution. All those in
14 favor signify by saying aye.
15 SENATOR HALPERIN: Mr.
16 President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Halperin, why do you rise?
19 SENATOR HALPERIN: Explain my
20 vote.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Halperin to explain his vote.
23 SENATOR HALPERIN: Thank you, Mr.
3274
1 President.
2 I had intended to speak although
3 not very much longer than I would in explaining
4 my vote, but I somehow felt that Senator
5 Leichter's, by passing his opportunity to speak,
6 left a tremendous void, and I'm not quite used
7 to it.
8 I was very interested in the
9 colloquy initiated by Senator Velella with
10 Senator Galiber, and I would, without coming to
11 a conclusion about what might have happened, I
12 think the argument that I heard Senator Velella
13 making was we would have tried to have subverted
14 this process no matter who your candidate was.
15 Well, that, to me, was the
16 message that I heard, and I tend to believe it
17 although I certainly agree with Senators
18 Galiber, Waldon and certain others who tried to
19 make it clear that a very bad message is being
20 sent out that will be interpreted in a certain
21 way.
22 But that, the point is that I
23 believe that from the beginning there was never
3275
1 an intent to permit this process to go forward
2 in the way envisioned by the Constitution and by
3 the people of this state, that there was an
4 attitude that, if we can't have our way and if
5 we can't get something out of this process,
6 we're just going to try to do anything we can to
7 upset it, and there's a doctrine in the law of
8 equity that, when you enter into a court you
9 must enter into it with clean hands. I don't
10 believe you've done this.
11 You knew two months ago or so
12 that the Comptroller was going to resign. From
13 that point on, you did nothing to move the
14 process along that could smoothly and properly
15 and lawfully bring the new Comptroller into
16 position, and that has been your strategy
17 throughout.
18 I sat through every minute of
19 every hearing of the Comptroller candidates. We
20 had an open process, a good process. You could
21 have participated and you chose not to and now
22 you're coming in here trying to raise spurious
23 legal arguments which I simply cannot agree with
3276
1 and I would just point out that the language
2 which appears in your very own resolution taken
3 from Section 41 of the Public Officers Law
4 speaks in terms -- and this has been said before
5 -- of a joint ballot. The reference to the
6 houses does not mean, in my interpretation of
7 this, that each house has to act with the
8 integrity of each house, but simply should be
9 interpreted to mean that the members of the
10 house shall -- of each house shall, by joint
11 ballot, vote and if a sufficient number of
12 members show up tomorrow morning at 10:30 and
13 take a vote, then we will duly appoint a new
14 Comptroller, a historical action which I
15 personally will be proud to participate in.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Nolan to explain his vote.
18 SENATOR NOLAN: Mr. President, I
19 find that really this whole -- this resolution
20 that was presented and we're acting upon tonight
21 is absolutely on the face of it absurd.
22 Mr. President, could we have some
23 order in the house, please.
3277
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Nolan raises a good point. May we have order in
3 the house, please.
4 SENATOR NOLAN: It's patently, on
5 the face of the resolution, illegal. It's -
6 it's wrong. The courts are going to quickly
7 deal with this. Presumably you are going to go
8 to court and you're going to lose. Very simple,
9 you're going to lose. You don't have a prayer
10 of winning.
11 But what happens if you did win?
12 What happens if, by some quirk, that you were
13 successful? The best you'd accomplish is delay
14 this happening that's going to happen tomorrow
15 for a month or two. That's the best thing that
16 you could hope for. And what are you proving by
17 that?
18 We've nominated, through a very
19 difficult process which you decided not to
20 participate in, one of the most highly qualified
21 people in the state of New York to be
22 Comptroller.
23 Senator Galiber touched on some
3278
1 of the qualifications of our former colleague,
2 Senator McCall, a true Horatio Alger story that
3 a lot of you in this chamber know Carl. Grew up
4 in poverty in the Roxbury section of Boston,
5 went to Dartmouth College on a scholarship,
6 graduated from Dartmouth, graduated from
7 divinity school as a Master's and Doctor of
8 Divinity.
9 High school teacher, a minister,
10 headed up the poverty program, anti-poverty
11 program in Brooklyn under your mayor at that
12 time, John Lindsay. One of the founders of
13 Inner City Broadcasting Corporation, today the
14 single largest minority-owned communications
15 business in the United States. Very successful
16 business person. Elected to the Senate from
17 Harlem in 1974; one of the four top people in
18 the United Nations when he served as a Deputy
19 Ambassador to the United Nations under former
20 President Carter. A Commissioner of Human
21 Rights for the state of New York, executive
22 director of Channel 13 public interest tele
23 vision station, the largest public interest
3279
1 television station in the United States. For
2 the last eight years a senior vice-president at
3 Citicorp, the largest banking institution in the
4 United States. At one time ran for two and a
5 half years, their Queens retail banking
6 division, the largest single retail banking
7 division in the Citibank retail structure, and
8 the last two years not only has served Citibank
9 on a daily basis but also as an additional task
10 having taken on the job as president of the
11 board of education of the city of New York, the
12 largest public education system in the United
13 States.
14 And you all, for political
15 reasons, are going to try and, at the best, hold
16 this man off from becoming Comptroller for a
17 month or two? The best you could accomplish.
18 For what reason? For what reason? Because you
19 are now in the minority for one of the few times
20 in the 19 years that I've been in the Senate.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator,
22 if you will excuse me, there is a rule that you
23 are on the very, very close fringe of breaking.
3280
1 That is a rule requires a Senator to cast his
2 vote, explain his vote within two minutes. Now,
3 you have now extended yourself to about three
4 and a half. I would remind you of that rule and
5 ask that you show the house the courtesy of
6 complying with that rule and cast your vote.
7 SENATOR NOLAN: All right. Just
8 like one final sentence and to urge my
9 colleagues to please have a change of heart and
10 to participate in the joint session tomorrow and
11 elect Carl McCall as the state Comptroller.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank
13 you, Senator Nolan.
14 Senator Smith to explain her
15 vote.
16 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr.
17 President.
18 Some five years ago I came to
19 this body, and I was extremely proud to be able
20 to sit with people whom I felt were fair and
21 compassionate. Tonight I'm embarrassed and I'm
22 ashamed to even think that some of you would
23 contemplate bringing forth this resolution
3281
1 because you anticipated that our nominee would
2 either be a female or an African-American. And
3 God forbid had the third place person who
4 happened to have been born in Puerto Rico was
5 our nominee.
6 I'm saddened that you would hope
7 to dilute the powers of an office based on
8 someone's sex or race or where they were born.
9 I'm really ashamed to think that any one of you
10 that I've oftentimes called my friends could
11 consider aborting a process that clearly gives
12 us the opportunity to be the shining star of all
13 the states in this United States of America.
14 And I choose to answer a question
15 that Senator Velella asked Senator Galiber: Had
16 it been Joey Lentol, I would have fought just as
17 hard for him if he had been challenged because
18 of his being Italian just as I have stood for
19 those Italians in CUNY. I abhor discrimination
20 no matter whom it's against, and I ask my
21 colleagues that I'd often called my friends to
22 please reconsider tonight what you did because
23 it will impact on the entire state of New York.
3282
1 Therefore, Mr. President, I
2 clearly vote in the negative on this
3 resolution.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Nozzolio to explain his vote.
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
7 President.
8 What's happened in this process
9 that is so heralded tonight is that, during this
10 process those participants have rejected cam
11 paign contribution and disclosure requirements.
12 They herald campaign election reform but when
13 it's time to establish real reform, that's
14 rejected.
15 This house debated at length and
16 many members on the other side of the aisle
17 rejected a referendum to get a sense of the
18 feelings of the citizens of this state, whether
19 they'd have an unelected Comptroller serve
20 virtually half a term. We wanted to see what
21 the people believed should be the next
22 Comptroller, who the people believed the next
23 Comptroller should be, and although passed in
3283
1 this house it was rejected by a joint session.
2 May I continue, Mr. Speaker -
3 Mr. President?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
5 Certainly.
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: But let's tell
7 it like it is: From the very onset of Comptrol
8 ler Regan's resignation, you have been part and
9 parcel of -- those who are rejecting this
10 resolution tonight have been part and parcel of
11 the Governor's attempt to dominate the process.
12 The final selection apparently is
13 the Governor's first choice. Only a few days
14 after the vacancy was established, the Governor
15 said who his first choice was and surprise,
16 surprise, even after this lengthy process, who
17 is the Speaker's choice? It's the same
18 individual who the Governor said from day one
19 was his choice.
20 How many mirrors and smoke can
21 you use to justify a process that's not
22 justifiable? You had the opportunity to be part
23 of a process, to be independent and you did not
3284
1 take that opportunity. You rolled over at the
2 first chance you had. You got rolled. The
3 Assembly rolled this house in its attempt and
4 you let them, you let them do that, and that's
5 why I believe this resolution is absolutely
6 essential and that's why I applaud it being
7 before this house, and I support it wholeheart
8 edly.
9 I vote aye.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 DeFrancisco to explain his vote.
12 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: This is a
13 sad, sad day in this house because what we're
14 doing here is trying to pave the way for an
15 illegal meeting which would appoint a man as
16 Comptroller.
17 Now, I know most of you
18 individually now, and I know in your hearts of
19 heart you don't mean to be sexist by this vote
20 in not selecting a woman candidate because I
21 know individually you would never do that and
22 choose a man over a woman because you're not
23 sexist. I know you're not, because I know every
3285
1 one of you individually.
2 But we have an opportunity here,
3 the majority population in this state to be
4 represented in one of the highest positions as
5 the state Comptroller, and that person could be
6 a female. We're sending a terrible message to
7 the community out there. I know we all
8 understand it. We understand it, but I fear
9 they out there, they're not going to understand
10 it.
11 This person who you could have
12 chosen was a president of the biggest city
13 council in the whole United States except for
14 L.A. She works as an investment broker now or
15 in an investment brokerage house. She's a
16 former Senator of this body, when it was a home,
17 when this house was a home, so because of that
18 and because it's an illegal meeting, I have to
19 rise and vote yes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
21 any other Senator who wishes to explain his or
22 her vote prior to Senator Marino?
23 Senator Waldon.
3286
1 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
2 much, Mr. President. I'll be very brief.
3 At least two points I want to
4 make. One, we are doing the will of the people
5 because we are here by virtue of the voting
6 which makes us a representative body. So
7 whatever we do regarding the Comptroller's
8 designation is the will of the people and to
9 characterize the action of tomorrow morning,
10 which will certainly happen otherwise, is in
11 disrespect of the votes which brought us here.
12 Lastly, you spoke of your
13 frustration, your frustration in this one time
14 since I've been here both in the Assembly and in
15 the Senate, of not being in absolute control of
16 your destiny. But think of the frustration that
17 what you're doing this evening will mean to
18 millions of African and Caribbean-Americans and
19 Latino Americans in this state.
20 No matter how you cut it, what
21 you're saying is that you're less and what
22 you're saying is, even if you have a record, as
23 does Carl McCall, you don't qualify. You're not
3287
1 equal to. You're not saying it in words and
2 substance, but you're saying it more importantly
3 by your actions and that's unfortunate. That's
4 very unfortunate, because there are people who
5 go to work every day believing that, if they put
6 their children through school, if they lead the
7 good life, if they work hard, anything is
8 possible and yet it is not so, because you
9 frustrate one of the best that we have to offer
10 and in turn frustrate all people of color in
11 this state.
12 Please be mindful of that, and I
13 encourage you to do as this African-American is
14 going to do and vote in the negative on this
15 resolution.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Ohrenstein to explain his vote.
18 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Mr.
19 President, to explain my vote briefly.
20 Unfortunately, having listened to
21 all of this, I have to conclude one thing and I
22 say this with respect to my friend, Ralph
23 Marino, and the Majority Leader of this house,
3288
1 and I think several of my colleagues have
2 pointed this out.
3 You guys have gotten into a very
4 bad habit, and that's because of the way this
5 place is run, not just the Senate, the Assembly
6 as well to a certain degree, and I've criticized
7 this on many occasions but nothing in this place
8 happens without being leveraged onto something
9 else. The hostaging that takes place here,
10 whether it's on the budget or on legislation is
11 right; that's how we operate. Everything else
12 is hinged on everything else. That's the habit
13 we're into.
14 I think it's a bad way to go.
15 I've said it before. It isn't just your fault,
16 it's the way the structure works in this
17 Legislature, and that's another issue for
18 another day.
19 But what you are doing is so
20 apparent and so patent, you can't come to -- you
21 can not bring yourselves to agree to come to a
22 meeting which you know will take place and, as
23 Senator Nolan indicated, will take place
3289
1 eventually, whether it's today, next week, or
2 three months. You can't bring yourself to go to
3 a meeting without trying to exact a price, and
4 that's what you tried to do here.
5 You tried to squeeze out some
6 bills or at least to make believe you're trying
7 to squeeze out some bills and to put the
8 Democrats in a position where they're against
9 these high principles that you're espousing
10 because they won't pass a bill today or tomorrow
11 because it may take a little time to put these
12 two very important measures that you have
13 selected as being hostage on the question of a
14 concurrent resolution.
15 That's what you're doing and I
16 think you ought to stop. This is a sui generis
17 process that happens once in a while under
18 unique historic circumstances. You know the law
19 requires that there be a joint meeting. How
20 it's called we can argue 'til we're blue in the
21 face and only some court eventually is going to
22 decide who's right or who's wrong. But the
23 color of right exists under the Constitution and
3290
1 under the law. And so I think you make just a
2 bad mistake in trying to leverage something onto
3 this concurrent resolution which you believe is
4 the only way you can call this meeting when it
5 is clear there are several other ways that are
6 perfectly legal and perfectly callable.
7 So I would just wish you would
8 think for a moment and stop it. Let's meet
9 tomorrow, do this in a decent way. Let's not
10 ring up the consequences, Senator Marino, that
11 you suggested in your own press release that
12 show the credit of the state and other things
13 are going to be impaired.
14 If that happens, the blame isn't
15 going to fall on the Democrats. The blame is
16 going to fall on all of us. The blame is going
17 to fall on the way we run the state collective
18 ly. Nobody gains by this. I don't think -- I
19 think your strategy was ill conceived. It was
20 thoughtless. We have time to withdraw from this
21 kind of silly argumentative way in which we come
22 to the conclusions, and let's finish up
23 tomorrow, let's bring this to a conclusion.
3291
1 Let's elect this very decent and highly
2 qualified individual that the Democrats -
3 individual the Democrats have elected to be
4 Comptroller and let's be done with it, and let's
5 go on with the rest of the session.
6 I ask that this resolution be
7 defeated.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Marino to conclude explanation of votes.
10 SENATOR MARINO: To be very
11 brief, Mr. President.
12 I'm sorry that we're here at this
13 hour, this late hour, because it's all
14 unnecessary. All of this could have been
15 avoided very simply by the leaders of the
16 Democrat Party showing respect, Senator
17 Dollinger. You talked about respect. I think
18 if they had shown some respect for this house
19 and this institution, this could have all been
20 avoided. But to have the Speaker tell me on
21 Monday what hour and what day we're going to
22 meet, without suggesting that I had any input in
23 the process, in fact clearly suggested that I
3292
1 had no input in the process, is a lack of
2 respect for this house.
3 For him to suggest that he's
4 going to, or you collectively are going to sum
5 up the rules of this procedure and as late as
6 this afternoon dictate what those rules would be
7 without any input on the part of this house,
8 Senator, shows a lack of respect for this
9 house.
10 I would expect more from the
11 leadership of the Democrat Party than this type
12 of posturing. I don't believe we should reward
13 arrogance, and that's what you're suggesting.
14 It's a clearly arrogant posture to tell me or
15 this house that we must arrive at 10:30
16 tomorrow. I had nothing to say about it. It
17 can't be next Monday. It must be tomorrow at
18 10:30 and, you know, if you just waited until
19 Monday, this would all go away.
20 No. Arrogantly you're going to
21 tell us that it must be at 10:30 tomorrow and
22 the Lt. Governor is going to dictate that, the
23 time and place where we're going to meet in
3293
1 contravention of every rule of this house. He's
2 done it before; he's tried to establish this
3 precedent before, illegally in my opinion, and
4 improperly. He's now trying to do it again in
5 concert with the other house, and I'm not going
6 to let it happen, because I respect the
7 integrity of this house and everybody in it. I
8 show respect. I would never do that to the
9 Speaker, to the Lt. Governor or any other person
10 elected in this state.
11 That's what this is all about.
12 It's not about Carl McCall, who everybody loves
13 as an individual. Not about him. It's about
14 the process; that's what this is all about.
15 It's about arrogance. It's about dictator
16 ship. We resent it. It's illegal; it's wrong.
17 For that reason, I vote for this
18 resolution and I'll ask for a slow roll call.
19 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: Party vote
20 in the negative.
21 SENATOR MARINO: Slow roll call.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 question is on the resolution. The question is
3294
1 on the resolution. I see five Senators standing
2 at the request of Senator Marino. A slow roll
3 call is being called. The clerk will commence
4 with the calling of the roll slowly.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush
6 excused.
7 Senator Bruno.
8 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
10 SENATOR CONNOR: No.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook.
12 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Daly.
14 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 DeFrancisco.
17 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator
19 Dollinger.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No, for the
21 second time.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
23 (There was no response.)
3295
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
2 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber.
4 SENATOR GALIBER: No.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
6 SENATOR GOLD: No.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Gonzalez.
9 (There was no response. )
10 Senator Goodman.
11 (There was no response. )
12 Senator Halperin.
13 SENATOR HALPERIN: No.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon.
15 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Hoffmann.
18 SENATOR HOFFMANN: No.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland.
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones.
3296
1 SENATOR JONES: No.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
3 SENATOR KUHL: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
5 SENATOR LACK: Mr. President, I
6 rise to explain my vote.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Lack to explain his vote.
9 SENATOR LACK: I vote in the
10 affirmative, Mr. President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Lack in the affirmative.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
14 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
16 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator
18 Leichter.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Nay.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
21 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
3297
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
2 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
4 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino.
6 SENATOR MARINO: Yes.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Markowitz.
9 (There was no response. )
10 Senator Masiello.
11 (There was no response. )
12 Senator Mega.
13 SENATOR MEGA: Yes.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
15 (There was no response. )
16 Senator Montgomery.
17 (There was no response. )
18 Senator Nolan.
19 SENATOR NOLAN: No.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator
21 Nozzolio.
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
3298
1 Ohrenstein.
2 SENATOR OHRENSTEIN: No.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
4 SENATOR ONORATO: No.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator
6 Oppenheimer.
7 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Pataki.
11 SENATOR PATAKI: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator
13 Paterson.
14 (There was no response. )
15 Senator Present.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
18 SENATOR SALAND: Yes.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator
20 Santiago.
21 (There was no response. )
22 Senator Sears.
23 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
3299
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
2 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sheffer.
4 SENATOR SHEFFER: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
8 SENATOR SMITH: No, and nay.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Spano.
12 SENATOR SPANO: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Stachowski.
15 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Stafford.
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator
20 Stavisky.
21 (There was no response. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo.
23 SENATOR TRUNZO: Aye.
3300
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
2 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
4 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
6 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
8 SENATOR WALDON: No.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright.
10 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Clerk
12 will call the absentees.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
14 (There was no response).
15 Senator Gonzalez.
16 (There was no response.)
17 Senator Goodman.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Markowitz.
20 (There was no response.)
21 Senator Masiello.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Mendez.
3301
1 (There was no response.)
2 Senator Montgomery.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Paterson.
5 (There was no response.)
6 Senator Santiago.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Solomon.
9 (There was no response.)
10 Senator Stavisky.
11 (There was no response. )
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
13 the results.
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34, nays
15 15.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 resolution is adopted.
18 Senator Marino.
19 SENATOR MARINO: Mr. President,
20 Senator Volker has an announcement.
21 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, I
22 know it's late, but I'd just like to remind
23 everybody that tomorrow at 8:00 o'clock at St.
3302
1 Mary's Church is the ecumenical memorial service
2 for deceased legislators. I'm going to -- I'm
3 going to be there at 8:00 o'clock, and I hope
4 that as many members as is possible will be
5 there and, of course, there will be the
6 traditional breakfast afterwards. This year it
7 will be at the Sign of the Tree since, for
8 various reasons, we were not able to get the
9 Green Room. So we'd appreciate anyone who can
10 be there. This ecumenical service will, thanks
11 to Senator Nolan, will have a rabbi, a
12 Protestant minister and a Catholic priest and
13 we'd like to have as many of our members there
14 as possible.
15 Thank you.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Marino.
18 SENATOR MARINO: Senator, you
19 want to -- any Senator wish to speak?
20 (There was no response.)
21 There being no further business,
22 I move we adjourn until tomorrow at 11:30.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate
3303
1 stands adjourned until Wednesday, May 5th, at
2 11:30 a.m.
3 (Whereupon, at 12:29 a.m., May 5,
4 1993, the Senate adjourned.)
5
6
7
8
9