Regular Session - May 10, 1993
3362
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9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 May 10, 1993
11 3:08 p.m.
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14 REGULAR SESSION
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18 SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President
19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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3363
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate
3 will come to order. Senators will please find
4 their seats.
5 Rise with me for the Pledge of
6 Allegiance to the Flag.
7 (Whereupon the Senate joined in
8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. )
9 If you will please bow your heads
10 for a moment of silent prayer.
11 (Whereupon there was a moment of
12 silence. )
13 Secretary will begin by reading
14 the Journal.
15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
16 Friday, May 7. The Senate met pursuant to
17 adjournment. Senator Bruno in the chair upon
18 designation of the Temporary President. The
19 Journal of Thursday, May 6, was read and
20 approved. On motion Senate adjourned.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hearing
22 no objection, the Journal will stand approved as
23 read.
3364
1 The order of business:
2 Presentation of petitions.
3 Messages from the Assembly.
4 Messages from the Governor.
5 Reports of standing committees.
6 Reports of select committees.
7 Communications and reports from
8 state officers.
9 Motions and resolutions.
10 Senator Libous.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Thank
12 you, Mr. President. On page 37, I offer the
13 following amendments to Calendar Number 581,
14 Senate Print 4294, and ask that the bill retain
15 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
17 objection.
18 Senator Daly.
19 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President. On
20 behalf of Senator Sears, I wish to call up his
21 bill, Number 3452A, recalled from the Assembly,
22 which is now at the desk.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
3365
1 Secretary will read Senator Sears' bill.
2 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Sears,
3 Senate Bill Number 3452A, an act to amend the
4 Agriculture and Markets Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Daly.
7 SENATOR DALY: I now move to
8 reconsider the vote by which that bill passed.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
10 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
11 (The Secretary called the roll on
12 reconsideration. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
15 bill is before the house.
16 Senator Daly.
17 SENATOR DALY: I now offer the
18 following amendments.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
20 amendments are received. The bill will retain
21 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
22 Are there any other motions on
23 the floor?
3366
1 Senator Saland.
2 SENATOR SALAND: I would like to
3 star Calendar 424, on page 22, Bill Number
4 4332. And I would like to remove the star from
5 Calendar 516. That's Senate 3642.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is
7 starred at the request of the sponsor, and the
8 star is removed.
9 Senator Volker.
10 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
11 Can I make an inquiry? Has there been any new
12 Court of Appeals decision inhibiting our ability
13 to handle the session since I left the LOB?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I don't
15 recall.
16 SENATOR VOLKER: Thank you.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Present, we have some substitutions. Secretary
19 will read the substitutions.
20 THE SECRETARY: On page 5 of
21 today's calendar, Senator Hannon moves to
22 discharge the Committee on Housing and Community
23 Development from Assembly Bill Number 1762 and
3367
1 substitute it for the identical Calendar Number
2 690.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
4 Substitutions ordered.
5 THE SECRETARY: On page 30,
6 Senator LaValle moves to discharge the Committee
7 on Higher Education from Assembly Bill Number
8 7119 and substitute it for the identical
9 Calendar Number 594.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
11 Substitution is ordered.
12 Senator Present, what's your
13 pleasure?
14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
15 Let's go to non-controversial calendar, please.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
17 Non-controversial, the Secretary will read.
18 THE SECRETARY: On page 21,
19 Calendar Number 346, by Senator Skelos, Senate
20 Bill Number 3860A.
21 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
22 aside.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
3368
1 aside.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 395, by Senator Kuhl.
4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
5 aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
7 aside.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 436, by Senator Libous.
10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
11 aside.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
13 aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 499, by Senator -
16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
17 aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
19 aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 505, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number
22 1422B, Economic Development Law.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
3369
1 the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
5 the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
9 bill is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 530, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 3765,
12 an act to amend the Labor Law.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
14 the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
16 act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
18 the roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll. )
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
22 bill is passed.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3370
1 531, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 3766A,
2 Workers' Compensation Law.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
4 the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
8 the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
12 bill is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 536, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 1282,
15 an act to amend Chapter 668 of the Laws of
16 1977.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
22 the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3371
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39.
2 I'm sorry. Ayes 38, nays 1,
3 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
5 bill is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 530.
8 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
9 aside.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
11 aside.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
13 for the day.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
15 aside for the day.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 566.
18 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
19 for the day, please.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
21 that aside for the day.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 568, by Senator Cook.
3372
1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
2 aside.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
4 aside.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 571, by Senator Mega, Senate Bill Number 2089,
7 Executive Law and the Criminal Procedure Law.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
9 the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
13 the roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll. )
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
17 bill is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: 573, by Senator
19 Marino, Senate Bill Number -
20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
21 aside.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
23 aside.
3373
1 THE SECRETARY: 574, by Senator
2 Johnson, Senate Bill Number 1961, Environmental
3 Conservation Law.
4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
5 aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
7 aside.
8 SENATOR JOHNSON: For the day.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: For the
10 day.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 594, substituted earlier today, by member of the
13 Assembly McEneny, Assembly Bill Number 7119,
14 amends Chapter 132 of the laws of 1990,
15 authorizing the State University of New York to
16 contract for research development.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
22 the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3374
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 bill is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: 595, by Senator
5 Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 2667, an act to amend
6 the Navigation Law.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
8 the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
12 the roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
16 bill is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: 602, by Senator
18 Velella.
19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
20 aside.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
22 aside.
23 THE SECRETARY: 603, by Senator
3375
1 Velella, Senate Bill Number 4504, an act to
2 amend the Insurance Law.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
4 the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
8 the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
12 bill is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 604, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number
15 439A, Retirement and Social Security Law.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
17 the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
21 the roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
3376
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
2 bill is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 605, by Senator Padavan.
5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
6 aside.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
8 aside.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 606, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 2742,
11 Retirement and Social Security Law.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
14 aside.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 607, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 3511,
17 Retirement and Social Security Law.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
20 aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 609, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 4649,
23 Education Law, in relation to employer
3377
1 contributions.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
3 the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
11 bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 612, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 3589,
14 an act to amend the Public Authorities Law.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
16 the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
20 the roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
3378
1 bill is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 614.
4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay it
5 aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
7 aside.
8 Senator Present, that's the first
9 time through.
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
11 Let's take up the controversial calendar.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
13 Controversial. Secretary will read.
14 THE SECRETARY: On page 21.
15 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
16 temporarily.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
18 aside temporarily.
19 THE SECRETARY: Page 22, Calendar
20 Number 395, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number
21 3414A, an act to amend the Agriculture and
22 Markets Law.
23 SENATOR KUHL: Lay it aside until
3379
1 tomorrow, please.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
3 aside for the day.
4 SENATOR KUHL: Read the last
5 section.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
7 the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
11 the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41, nays 1.
14 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
16 bill is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 436, by Senator Libous, Senate Bill Number 1526,
19 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
20 Law.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
23 Explanation has been asked for, Senator Libous.
3380
1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
2 President. This bill will allow Sunday hunting
3 for three Sundays during the year from November
4 22nd to December 14th in the counties of Broome,
5 Cayuga, Chenango, Cortland, Madison, Onondaga,
6 Oswego, Tioga, and Tompkins Counties.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
8 the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
12 the roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator yield
15 to one question?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Libous?
18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, I will,
19 Senator.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 yields.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Senator, as
23 you know, this is supported by DEC.
3381
1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes.
2 SENATOR GOLD: And it is opposed
3 by SPCA, Sierra Club, et cetera, some of the
4 church councils. This would allow three
5 Sundays, is that it?
6 SENATOR LIBOUS: It's not every
7 Sunday. It would only require that there be
8 Sunday hunting during the season which will run,
9 this year, 1993, between November 22nd and
10 December 14th.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Would you yield to
12 one other question?
13 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, sir.
14 SENATOR GOLD: I'm not a hunter,
15 but why is it that we have a law today that
16 prohibits people from hunting on any Sunday?
17 What is the argument?
18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Well, it's funny
19 you asked that question, Senator, because Mr.
20 President, what we did is a little research.
21 And, you know, Sunday hunting is allowed in most
22 of the state to the east of us. Unfortunately,
23 it is not allowed in this region and to the
3382
1 west.
2 But we did a little bit of
3 research, and we believe that basically at the
4 turn of the century, in the Southern Tier
5 particularly -- and this is DEC Region Number 7
6 -- it was exclusively farmed at that time, and
7 it really didn't have an adequate habitat for
8 deer. And, subsequently, the deer herds moved
9 in, into the Adirondacks and up from
10 Pennsylvania. And then in the late '20s, the
11 depression hit, and the agriculture bottomed
12 out, and that left many farmers with no choices
13 but to sell their land to the state.
14 And as time went on, we found
15 that the deer hunting became -- actually, I
16 guess the deer herd became aggressively
17 collecting in this area. And then, basically,
18 from what we can tell, there was no purpose at
19 that time. We recognize now, though, there is a
20 need for increasing it for three days during the
21 regular big game season, because there is a lot
22 of herd. They need to manage the herd and
23 control it.
3383
1 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Senator, if
2 you'll yield to one more question?
3 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, Mr.
4 President. I'll do so.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Is there any
6 reason why we don't allow hunters to hunt every
7 Sunday? I mean we have a hunting season. Let
8 them hunt seven days a week.
9 SENATOR LIBOUS: Actually, Mr.
10 President, they can hunt every Sunday, but they
11 can't hunt big game at the present time. They
12 can hunt squirrel and other types of animals
13 right now every Sunday.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
15 the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
19 the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
22 the negative on Calendar Number 436 are Senators
23 Galiber, LaValle, Maltese, Nozzolio, Onorato,
3384
1 Padavan and Present. Ayes 39, nays 7.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 bill is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 499, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number 1644,
6 proposing amendment to the constitution.
7 SENATOR HALPERIN: Explanation.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
9 Explanation. Senator Larkin.
10 Lay it aside temporarily. Oh, I
11 didn't see you there, Senator Larkin. Sorry.
12 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President.
13 This is the second passage of this
14 Constitutional Amendment. It passed unanimous
15 last year. This resolution authorizes the
16 Constitutional Amendment to allow local
17 governments to issue bonds with level or
18 declining debt service and to issue zero coupon
19 bonds provided contributions are made to a
20 sinking fund to cover any interest which is not
21 paid annually or included in leveling or
22 declining debt service. This would be the
23 second passage of this bill.
3385
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
2 resolution. Call the roll on the resolution.
3 (The Secretary called the roll on
4 the resolution. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45, nays 2.
6 Senators Galiber and Gold recorded in the
7 negative.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
9 resolution is adopted.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 568, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 4156,
12 an act authorizing the Commissioner of General
13 Services to sell and convey certain land in the
14 town of Ulster.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
16 the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
20 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Cook.
23 SENATOR COOK: Is there some
3386
1 problem with the bill?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3 Halperin, why do you rise?
4 SENATOR HALPERIN: Could you
5 please -- I would like to have the vote
6 reconsidered by which Calendar Number 499 just
7 passed.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Well -
9 I guess we can.
10 Senator Present, is that
11 agreeable with you?
12 Call the roll on reconsideration
13 on the resolution that just passed by Senator
14 Larkin.
15 (The Secretary called the roll on
16 reconsideration. )
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 resolution is before the house.
19 SENATOR HALPERIN: Would Senator
20 Larkin please provide an explanation?
21 Oh, he did? Sorry.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He did
23 already.
3387
1 SENATOR LARKIN: I already did.
2 SENATOR HALPERIN: Well, Senator,
3 could you then yield to a question?
4 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes.
5 SENATOR HALPERIN: As I
6 understand -
7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President.
8 Point of order. Another bill has been called
9 and I thought we were awaiting the Minority
10 Leader on that.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you are
12 absolutely correct. It doesn't always mean much
13 here. Senator Cook, first of all, could you let
14 me have one day on your bill, aside from
15 everything else?
16 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Just a
18 moment. I want to get some order in where we
19 are going in the proceeding. Senator Halperin
20 asked for reconsideration of a resolution that
21 just passed. Out of courtesy, there seemed to
22 be no objection and we reconsidered the
23 resolution it is before the house.
3388
1 Senator Halperin, did you have a
2 question that you wanted to ask Senator Larkin?
3 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
5 Gold.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Mr.
7 President, what happened was exactly accurate.
8 Senator Cook's bill was on the floor. We asked
9 for a moment. If we can just straighten that
10 out, I'm sure we will be back on the same place
11 in a second. Senator Cook has graciously agreed
12 to give us one day on his bill. So if we can
13 just do that and lay it aside for the day and
14 come right back here, I think we will show due
15 respect for Senator Cook.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We will
17 lay Senator Cook's bill aside for the day.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
19 President.
20 We're currently on Senator
21 Larkin's resolution.
22 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr.
23 President.
3389
1 SENATOR HALPERIN: Mr.
2 President. Would Senator Larkin yield to a
3 question, please?
4 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr.
5 President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
7 Larkin.
8 SENATOR HALPERIN: I understand
9 the purpose of this bill, which is I think is
10 laudable. The bill, of course, affects the
11 entire state, and I'm particularly concerned
12 about the impact upon an existing procedure
13 within the city of New York and existing policy
14 as relates to zero coupon bonds. Now, as I
15 understand it, this bill would require a reserve
16 to be established for zero coupon bonds. Is
17 that accurate?
18 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, sir.
19 SENATOR HALPERIN: And that
20 presently it's my understanding that the city of
21 New York issues zero coupon bonds in such a
22 manner as to have an equal amount, more or less,
23 coming due on an annual basis. Is that
3390
1 correct?
2 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes.
3 SENATOR HALPERIN: So, then, the
4 concern that's been expressed to me by
5 representatives of the City is that since they
6 have a payment schedule that does not result in
7 what one might refer to as ballooning but,
8 rather, in a level payment schedule as it is,
9 based upon the due dates and the issuance dates
10 of the bonds that what this might do is to cause
11 money to be set aside that would otherwise be
12 able to be used for the needs of the budget,
13 which I think we all recognize are very severe
14 in the city of New York, and might not really
15 provide any great protection because the way
16 that the bonds are issued already is being done
17 in a responsible manner.
18 Have you dealt with this issue?
19 Have you considered this question?
20 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, we did look
21 at it. Last year, it was brought up in a milder
22 fashion by the city of New York. They never
23 followed through on what they wanted to do until
3391
1 a couple of days ago.
2 But, as you just mentioned, this
3 doesn't only affect the city of New York. This
4 affects the entire state of New York; and
5 without this, the rest of the state cannot do
6 anything. The Association of Counties, the
7 Conference of Mayors, Association of Towns and
8 School Districts are all supportive of this
9 because it gives a level playing field with the
10 zero coupon bonds.
11 The compelling reason that the
12 city of New York gave when they gave the outline
13 of the three factors of how they were doing it,
14 in my opinion the difference is not as great as
15 they make it out to be.
16 SENATOR HALPERIN: Well, then
17 finally, Senator, if you'll just -
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
19 Senator, will you yield to another question?
20 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, sir.
21 SENATOR HALPERIN: Senator, you
22 said when this bill passed last year, the City
23 raised some issues and it was not until two
3392
1 weeks ago that you heard from them again?
2 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator, it was
3 just about a week ago when the city of New York
4 finally realized that this was going to happen.
5 Since January, everybody knew that this was the
6 second year for passage of this bill, and nobody
7 in the city of New York contacted me. Until
8 this came on the Third Reading Calendar was the
9 first time that the city of New York contacted
10 us.
11 We, at the request of Senator
12 Goodman, laid it aside, and we have had nothing
13 further except for their one memo. They didn't
14 come up. They didn't say we would like to see
15 this done; we would like to see that done. If
16 they have such a great interest, I just don't
17 think a memo to say, "A memo in opposition."
18 What do you have to offer?
19 Why should the rest of the state
20 be held hostage for the city of New York? I
21 don't think New York City should be held hostage
22 for the rest of the state.
23 SENATOR HALPERIN: Senator
3393
1 Larkin, if you will yield to another question?
2 Has this bill passed the Assembly yet?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
4 Larkin.
5 SENATOR LARKIN: No.
6 SENATOR HALPERIN: Thank you very
7 much, Senator.
8 On the bill.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
10 bill. That's on the resolution.
11 SENATOR HALPERIN: On the
12 resolution, excuse me.
13 I do have some concern about the
14 impact this might have, as I described to you.
15 I understand that the amount of money involved
16 is not that great, although I think at this
17 point in time the City of New York can use every
18 dollar it has. However, given the fact that the
19 Assembly has not yet acted on the bill and that
20 apparently, according to what you said, the City
21 has not acted expeditiously, maybe the passage
22 of this bill will cause them to raise the issue
23 with the appropriate degree of urgency in the
3394
1 Assembly so that we can try to deal with the
2 problem that the City has brought forth to me.
3 But, on the other hand, I wouldn't want to stand
4 in the way of the rest of the state being able
5 to enter into the bond market in ways that may
6 be very important to them. So I will vote for
7 this legislation, but I would hope that some
8 kind of compromise can be worked out to try to
9 deal with the problem the City has.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On
11 Senator Larkin's resolution, will the Secretary
12 call the roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49, nays 2,
15 Senators Galiber and Gold recorded in the
16 negative.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 resolutions adopted.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 573, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number 3588,
21 Executive Law, in relation to discretionary
22 release on parole.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3395
1 Galiber.
2 SENATOR GALIBER: Can we have an
3 explanation?
4 SENATOR VOLKER: I know I'm not
5 as handsome or as erudite as Senator Marino, but
6 I will certainly try to answer if I can. Yes,
7 Senator.
8 SENATOR GALIBER: I just asked
9 for an explanation on it.
10 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure.
11 SENATOR GALIBER: Or maybe I can
12 ask a couple of questions.
13 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure.
14 SENATOR GALIBER: With your
15 background and we have -
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Galiber, I'm going to ask you to talk into the
18 mike even though he's at your back, and then you
19 can turn around and listen to his answer.
20 SENATOR GALIBER: All right. Mr.
21 President. Senator Volker's background would
22 suggest that he is aware of a problem that this
23 creates. The Parole Board at the present time
3396
1 takes into consideration all these factors that
2 are now covered by this bill not the second
3 go-round but first go-round.
4 So, Mr. President, I ask the
5 sponsor or my colleague who is giving an
6 explanation, what is the need for this? And do
7 you agree at the present time the long-termers
8 in particular that the Parole Board looks at
9 factors, factors that look at how they would
10 react and how dangerous to the community they
11 would be?
12 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I think
13 the genesis of this bill, and I know it very
14 well, we try to monitor as much as possible -
15 and keep in mind, Senator Marino, prior to being
16 Majority Leader, in his younger days was
17 chairman of Crime and Corrections, as you well
18 know. It seems to me that you, Senator, were
19 ranking and on that committee and very, very
20 active.
21 SENATOR GALIBER: In my other
22 life.
23 SENATOR VOLKER: In your other
3397
1 life. And I have to remember we were all
2 together, as the saying goes, in many trying
3 times in those days. But if you look back at
4 what has happened here and look at what is
5 happening in the parole system over the last few
6 years, my characterization of this bill is maybe
7 something like a nudge. What's been really
8 happening here is on the second -- on the
9 reconsideration, it appears almost as if the
10 Parole Board has been just without any question
11 letting people out, and there seems to me -- and
12 there have been some people, by the way, asking
13 us in their zeal to let people out of prison.
14 And, by the way, Senator, I assume you realize
15 that although I know that the head of the Parole
16 Board has taken some steps to try to stem the
17 tide a little bit that the number of people
18 being paroled today is probably at an all time
19 high without question.
20 We are paroling people or sending
21 them to work release or sending them into
22 various programs at a rate that is way beyond
23 anything that we have done in the past. It is
3398
1 something that we do not generally talk about.
2 Certainly, some states that have these varied
3 programs that some people have been trying to
4 get us to do are doing people in greater numbers
5 because the law is so open-ended that it's
6 allowing them to do it. But make no mistake
7 about it. We are paroling an enormous amount of
8 people in this state right now.
9 On reconsideration, there seems
10 to be an attitude developing and among some
11 parole people that they should really not look
12 at the file almost. Just let them out. In
13 fact, as you and I well know, Senator, there has
14 been a proposal for virtual automatic parole on
15 second consideration, which we have rejected
16 over the years.
17 What we're trying to do here -
18 what Senator Marino is trying to do here and the
19 language, "reasonable possibility", is language
20 that, as I say, is strong enough and yet not
21 very strong intending to say to a Parole Board
22 member: You must look at the file; and if there
23 is any indication that something that person did
3399
1 could make him a danger to the community, then
2 that consideration should be made at the time
3 that his reconsideration is taken up as far as
4 parole is concerned. It gives that parole
5 member, Parole Board member, the ability and the
6 legal ability to make a decision that it's
7 arguable maybe he or she could not make now.
8 And that's what this bill really is.
9 I don't think that Senator Marino
10 envisions, and I certainly don't, that this is
11 going to mean that all sorts of people are going
12 to be held on second consideration that maybe
13 weren't before, but I think it may give a little
14 more authority to the Parole Board, and also
15 maybe a little message to the Parole Board, that
16 they had better be a little more diligent in
17 taking a look at some of the inmates who are
18 being let out on parole in the street.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Galiber.
21 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator. Mr.
22 President. Will Senator yield for a question?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm
3400
1 sure he will. Senator Volker.
2 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, do we
3 have any memo in opposition or in favor of this
4 piece of legislation from the parole
5 commissioner or from the board?
6 SENATOR VOLKER: To my knowledge,
7 Senator, I do not know of a memo in favor or
8 against, and I suspect that there is none either
9 for or against.
10 Of course, Senator, in all due
11 respect, it probably is a little unlikely that
12 the Parole Board -- they might put one out
13 against one of my bills but probably less likely
14 to put one out against Senator Marino's bill,
15 frankly, although I have heard nothing from the
16 Parole Board in objection to this bill, to be
17 very honest with you.
18 SENATOR GALIBER: Will the
19 Senator yield for another question?
20 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm
22 sure he will.
23 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, do you
3401
1 feel this is redundant, this bill? You
2 mentioned earlier that at the present time the
3 Parole Board is looking, I believe, very
4 carefully at the files. I think perhaps the
5 category that we make reference to or you imply
6 this could be applicable to the young persons on
7 the earned eligibility, those who are not in the
8 long-term category. Are those the ones this is
9 directed at, if you know?
10 SENATOR VOLKER: No, Senator.
11 Let me just say this to you. If you look at the
12 history of this bill, in one sense, I guess,
13 maybe I had thought in the past that it might be
14 a bit redundant, because this bill has not been
15 released from my committee in the past. I don't
16 remember now whether this year this bill is in,
17 but a similar bill was in my committee. It may
18 have been in Crime and Corrections this year. I
19 just don't remember. I didn't really look at
20 it. I think maybe this is in Crime and
21 Corrections, but a similar bill.
22 But, very honestly, Senator, we
23 have been looking at the numbers, the parole
3402
1 numbers, and I think really what this bill is
2 designed to do is maybe as a reminder to the
3 Parole Board that you have to be very, very
4 careful when you are dealing with some of the
5 serious people that we have in our system.
6 You know, Senator, we don't have
7 -- we have only a handful of non-violent people
8 in our system, and most of those people are DWI
9 people who -- we have a lot of people who are
10 DWI. I have been looking at that lately because
11 we have been criticized because we're not
12 putting people away for driving while
13 intoxicated. Well, I have news for a lot of
14 people. We are. And I would suspect we're
15 probably putting more people away for driving
16 while intoxicated today than -- I'm just
17 guessing, but I've got to believe more than any
18 state in the Union, because most of the
19 so-called non-violent inmates that we have in
20 our system appear to be driving while
21 intoxicated people.
22 But, on the other hand, we have a
23 system that is -- although it is filled, we also
3403
1 have a lot of inmates applying for parole who
2 have violent backgrounds. And I think it seemed
3 to Senator Marino that it was appropriate to put
4 legislation in of this nature to remind the
5 Parole Board members that they should be looking
6 at the background of the people who they are
7 reconsidering for parole, and that it is still
8 their duty and their ability to hold those
9 people if it seems that they could create some
10 sort of danger to the community.
11 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, one
12 other question.
13 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure.
14 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator -
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
16 Volker, will you yield for one more question?
17 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly.
18 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, do you
19 know of any particular incident in Senator
20 Marino's district that would motivate this kind
21 of legislation, isolated situation? Usually
22 that's what happens in cases like this.
23 SENATOR VOLKER: I really can't,
3404
1 Senator, but I will say this. I think you are
2 aware that there have been a number of incidents
3 in the last year involving people on parole who
4 have committed subsequent crimes, some pretty
5 heavy crimes. I really couldn't say to you that
6 they were reconsidered people. I really
7 couldn't. And I don't know, Senator Marino
8 might be able to tell you that, but I just don't
9 know if there was any specific incident.
10 SENATOR GALIBER: All right.
11 Thank you, Senator.
12 Mr. President, on the bill.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
14 bill. Senator Galiber.
15 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President.
16 Parole has been a very ticklish situation for
17 many, many years for some of us, not necessarily
18 those who would suggest that there are some
19 legislators who are coddling inmates and want to
20 open up the flood gates and let them out.
21 That's not so. But what has happened in the
22 past and will happen in the future if this piece
23 of legislation goes through, it will pour salt,
3405
1 if you will, on an already open wound.
2 That second go-round when a
3 person is turned down the first go-round, that
4 person is not in the small category of one to
5 three or three to six. Those persons are turned
6 down who are long-termers, and you are adding
7 to, giving to the Parole Board something that
8 they don't even want, very frankly, and that is,
9 there is enough pressure put on the Parole Board
10 now for those long-terms who have been in jail
11 for some 15 or 20 years, and they keep going
12 back after every two years, and they take into
13 consideration the nature of the crime which is a
14 kind of a catch-all phrase, and they send them
15 back.
16 This piece of legislation is not
17 wanted even by the Parole Board, very frankly.
18 They feel that they have adequate space to do
19 this if they want to in the first instance. All
20 this really does is add another tool onto the
21 parole commissioner's list of instruments that
22 they have to use to satisfy a political climate,
23 a political climate. They have persons in jail,
3406
1 some of whom are 60, 70, 75 years of age. Can't
2 even walk over, if you will, the barbed wire.
3 They can't even walk over, and they are being
4 turned back on a day-to-day basis.
5 I had a matter last week before
6 the Appellate Division, Senator Volker. A young
7 man who -- an old man now, because he spent some
8 20 years in jail on an allegation that he shot
9 and killed a police officer out of uniform. He
10 killed a person who happened to be a police
11 officer. And the theory is they keep sending
12 him back, and the parole commissioner says
13 never. As long as he has been found guilty of
14 killing a police officer, we will never let him
15 out. Bad statement. Didn't really mean to say
16 it that way, but it came up in the discussion
17 last Friday.
18 What has happened here is that
19 there are pressures being applied to the Parole
20 Board to take those long-termers, most of whom
21 don't create any problems any more -- don't even
22 create any problems any more. They are part of,
23 if you will -- almost part of the administration
3407
1 in our prison system. Trustees, almost like a
2 para-person. Para -- not paralegals but para
3 professionals, almost, in a way of speaking.
4 So, Mr. President, this piece of
5 legislation adds another weight to the Parole
6 Board. I don't think they want it. I
7 personally believe, and I don't know for a fact,
8 that this was a case, an isolated case that
9 might have happened in Senator Marino's
10 Senatorial District. We all do this. We have a
11 knee-jerk reaction. Something happens in our
12 district, and we come in and we throw in a piece
13 of legislation.
14 But there are prisoners now that
15 come before the Parole Board -- and as I said
16 last Friday, because this person has
17 persistently said, "I didn't do it," they hold
18 it against him. So between the nature of the
19 crime and the seriousness and whether they go
20 back in the community, this is merely a
21 redundant piece of legislation. Dangerous only
22 in the sense that it gives those persons who are
23 on the parole commission who react, if you will,
3408
1 to the public and react to political pressure
2 another tool to deal with.
3 This is not needed. It's a bad
4 piece of legislation. I vote no.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
6 the last section of Senator Marino's bill.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays 3.
13 Senators Galiber, Gold and Leichter recorded in
14 the negative.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is
16 passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 602, by Senator Velella.
19 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
21 that bill aside.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 605, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number
3409
1 1854, Administrative Code of the city of New
2 York.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on one
4 second.
5 Explanation.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
7 Explanation. Senator Padavan.
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
9 This legislation would amend the Administrative
10 Code and the Retirement and Social Security Law
11 to include district attorney investigators in
12 the current 20-year retirement system that all
13 policemen in the city of New York, and many
14 statewide, are in. Within the City, they are
15 the only policemen who are not in that pension
16 system, and this law would allow them to be so.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Halperin.
19 SENATOR HALPERIN: Would Senator
20 Padavan yield to a question?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Padavan.
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
3410
1 SENATOR HALPERIN: I know there
2 are a number of bills pending which would enable
3 -- and I think we've already done it for the
4 correction officers -- enable various union
5 members to buy into similar benefits; but they,
6 as I said, have to buy into it. In this case,
7 these investigators are being elevated to a -- I
8 don't know if you call it a higher tier or
9 certainly being given greater benefits without
10 buying into it.
11 I understand there is a major
12 bill that may be coming down pretty soon as
13 relates to the Transit Workers Union where, once
14 again, they are willing to buy into the better
15 benefits. I'm concerned about establishing a
16 precedent with this legislation that might be
17 very, very costly to the City and the state as
18 time goes on by re-opening this. But on the
19 other hand, you mentioned that there were no
20 police anywhere in the city that have -
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: That are not in
22 the pension system.
23 SENATOR HALPERIN: That are not
3411
1 in that?
2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, these are
3 the only ones left.
4 SENATOR HALPERIN: They don't
5 have to pay for it? So these would be the only
6 police officers?
7 SENATOR PADAVAN: There are 173
8 of them who currently are not in that system.
9 Every other police officer in the city of New
10 York in any of the components.
11 SENATOR HALPERIN: Every new
12 employee of the police department goes into the
13 same system that this bill would pus these
14 individuals into.
15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. Section
16 13-225 of the retirement system. They are all
17 in it.
18 SENATOR HALPERIN: Okay. Thank
19 you, Senator.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Leichter.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
23 President. If Senator Padavan would yield, I
3412
1 would just like to follow up on Senator
2 Halperin's question, which is -
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
5 Padavan.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Are these
7 investigators police officers?
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do they go
10 through the police academy?
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: I can't answer
12 that part of it, but they are police officers.
13 They function as police officers. I'm sure as a
14 practicing attorney, you know what they do for
15 the district attorney.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: No, I don't.
17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, they
18 function as police officers within the D.A.'s
19 office under his direction, meaning they
20 investigate, they make arrests. They do all the
21 things that any police detective would do
22 outside the D.A.'s office. It presents all of
23 the difficulties as well as dangers of that type
3413
1 of position.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: And I just
3 want to understand how they are hired and how
4 they are trained. Do they come up through the
5 regular police process? You said that you don't
6 believe they go to the academy, but do they come
7 off the police list? Do they take the exam for
8 the police department?
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: I believe they
10 do. See, these people have been in this office,
11 in this position, for many years, so I can't
12 tell you as a matter of fact what list they got
13 off of. They may have been a police officer and
14 transferred to the D.A.'s office. I understand
15 many of them -- how many, I don't know, but some
16 fall into that category. They have may have
17 been a transit police officer, a housing police
18 officer, an NYPD police officer, and transferred
19 into the D.A.'s office. They could have been a
20 member of the State Police. They could have
21 been a state trooper. There are a variety of
22 ways they could have gotten to this position,
23 but they are obviously all trained for it, and
3414
1 they are all New York City police officers.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
3 President. Would Senator Padavan yield to a
4 question?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Padavan.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if,
8 indeed, they were regular police officers and
9 then transferred, wouldn't their pension
10 benefits continue?
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Not
12 necessarily. No, because they move -- the
13 answer to your question is the pension benefits
14 are with the position not from where they came
15 from. The current position that we are seeking
16 to change does not provide for a 20-year pension
17 system.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if
19 you would be good enough to continue to yield.
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Sure.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah. I can
22 not argue with your answer, because I'm really
23 not knowledgeable in this area, but it is my
3415
1 belief that once you are in the police pension
2 system and you transfer into one of these
3 positions in the district attorney's office,
4 it's hard for me to believe that you wouldn't
5 continue to be covered.
6 Senator Padavan, do you know
7 historically why these people if, as you say,
8 they are in all manner and means tantamount to
9 being police officers who are not covered in the
10 police pension system?
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Historically,
12 no, I don't.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Leichter.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Briefly on the
17 bill.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
19 bill.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: My concern is,
21 and I gather it must have been Senator
22 Halperin's concern because he asked questions
23 that I thought were pertinent, is that while I
3416
1 think all of us want to be as generous as we
2 possibly can be with public employees and
3 certainly those who go and risk their lives and
4 we appreciate how important the service is, but
5 one of the things that we find is there becomes
6 a greater and greater pension burden on the city
7 of New York and on local governments as a result
8 of the action that we take.
9 And we're being asked please
10 reduce expenditures. Many of you on the other
11 side of the aisle get up and you rail about big
12 expenditures. Well, one of the biggest
13 expenditures is all of these pension benefits
14 that we give. And I'm just frankly unsure,
15 Senator, whether this is a meritorious
16 something. That it was a mistake; it was
17 overlooked; it should be done; we're rectifying
18 a wrong; or whether we are giving the sort of a
19 benefit, Senator, that we would like to give if
20 we could be very generous but that we can't be
21 that free with public monies. I'm not sure I
22 know the answer to that, but I am concerned.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
3417
1 the last section.
2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
3 Just one second.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
5 Padavan.
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: You're right,
7 Senator. Obviously, we have to be concerned
8 about the fiscal impact of everything we do
9 here. The fiscal information we received is
10 that this would cost 500,000 a year. That comes
11 from the appropriate fiscal authorities that
12 gives us that kind of information. So we are
13 talking about $500,000 that the city of New York
14 would have to provide annually with regard to
15 these individuals that it does not at this
16 moment in time provide.
17 However, Senator, I think we have
18 to look a little bit beyond that. I would think
19 if I were a district attorney in the city of New
20 York dealing with some -- I guess just virtually
21 every county -- some very serious issues in
22 terms of criminality and I need people working
23 for me who are the best that are available to
3418
1 have with me doing this kind of work, I would
2 not want to feel that I got someone in that
3 position who is not as capable with the
4 background and experience that someone seeking a
5 similar if not identical position in one of the
6 other police components that serves the people
7 of the city of New York.
8 What I am suggesting to you in
9 terms of future recruitment, if not dealing with
10 the equity of the current situation -- and,
11 frankly, I would not have sponsored this bill if
12 I did not feel there is an inequality here. But
13 looking even beyond that in terms of the
14 economics that you have raised, I think it's
15 important that the district attorneys be on the
16 same playing field as every other law
17 enforcement component in the city of New York in
18 terms of the kind of individuals that they have
19 working for them in a police capacity. And
20 pension systems are obviously one of the
21 considerations that lead people to seek law
22 enforcement as a career. And so I think you
23 have to look at it not in terms of only the
3419
1 $500,000 but the performance level down the
2 road.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
5 Gold.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Padavan
7 yield to a question?
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
10 Padavan.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, first of
12 all, you said that the district attorneys should
13 not be disadvantaged. Have the District
14 Attorneys Association filed a memo in support of
15 this?
16 SENATOR PADAVAN: The District
17 Attorneys Association have not filed any memo at
18 all, to my knowledge. If you have one, I'd be
19 happy if you shared it with me, but I have not
20 received from them any communication. But I
21 would suspect that past history being any gauge
22 that if they had some opposition to this bill,
23 they would let me know.
3420
1 As a matter of fact, last
2 Wednesday I received a call from our district
3 attorney in Queens County on another bill that
4 hopefully we will be dealing with in the near
5 future involving pension systems that he called
6 up about. So I'm sure that if he had a problem
7 with this bill, although I didn't ask him to be
8 accurate, he would have told me.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Will the gentleman
10 yield to another question?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
12 Padavan.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Senator
14 Padavan. Isn't this bill in actuality -- since
15 the city of New York is the municipality
16 involved and they oppose it, isn't this really
17 nothing more than a mandate on local government
18 that is unfunded?
19 SENATOR PADAVAN: It's a mandate,
20 but I don't believe it's unfunded.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Are we giving them
22 the money?
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: We gave them
3421
1 authorization, Senator. It's called "Safe
2 Streets Safe Cities."
3 SENATOR GOLD: Right. Are we
4 giving them the money for this?
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: It's 2.4
6 billion.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you.
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Part of that
9 money, if I may answer you fully -
10 SENATOR GOLD: Sure. Of course.
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Part of those
12 funds earmarked in the "Safe Streets Safe
13 Cities" plan are to go to district attorneys to
14 enhance their capability and capacity to
15 function more effectively within the criminal
16 justice system in the city of New York.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Will
18 the Senator yield to one more question?
19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Padavan.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, we gave
23 them the money to do what they want to do. Now
3422
1 we're telling them what to do. Isn't that a
2 mandate unless we fund it?
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, every
4 pension bill that we deal with in this house
5 historically or any time in the future that goes
6 beyond state pensions for any locality, whether
7 it's correcting someone's oversight or
8 correcting a mistake or whatever, is a mandate
9 on that local government. And in the course of
10 the session, as you know, we deal with scores of
11 that type of legislation.
12 To that extent, it is a mandate,
13 but it's one that falls within our
14 jurisdiction. Local government cannot, even if
15 they wanted to, enact this legislation. The
16 district attorneys whom I feel personally -
17 it's a personal opinion -- support this
18 legislation, although they have not, I repeat,
19 sent a memo. And for that reason, we have to do
20 it if anybody is going to do it.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. On the
22 bill, Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
3423
1 bill.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Padavan, I
3 don't think in all the years I have listened to
4 you that I've ever thought you were more wrong.
5 You say that every pension is a mandate.
6 Senator, that just isn't so. We get requests up
7 here day in and day out where there are
8 negotiated conditions for pension from various
9 groups and municipalities, and they need us to
10 pass the legislation, so we pass it at their
11 request.
12 Senator, I'm getting a little
13 tired of hearing people who have Rs-C or just
14 plain Rs behind their title, indicating their
15 political party, talking about not giving
16 unfunded mandates to localities. And day after
17 day in this chamber, we get one from one of you
18 or another of you. And that's what this is.
19 The city of New York is in
20 financial condition similar to most governments
21 around this country, and they are doing a
22 budget. We say the district attorneys would
23 want it. Well, they haven't asked for it. This
3424
1 is not a D.A.'s bill. Believe me, the district
2 attorneys negotiate with the City and they
3 negotiate with the state very, very well. And
4 there is nobody who respects the D.A.s more than
5 I, but we're taking that negotiation process and
6 we're violating it.
7 There is no memo in support.
8 There is a memo in opposition. They are not
9 involved in this. And, Senator, we know where
10 the bill came from.
11 Now, in the memo from the city of
12 New York, it talks about participants making
13 certain contributions, other groups that have
14 had similar legislation by negotiation or
15 whatever, and there is a way of funding it. And
16 this bill is absolutely a mandate, an unfunded
17 mandate. It's that in Albany, it's that in
18 Syracuse, it's that in New York City. It's an
19 unfunded Republican mandate on the locality.
20 That's what it is.
21 Somebody made the comment that -
22 I think it was you, Senator Padavan, that we
23 want to be generous. We're being generous with
3425
1 other people's money. If you want to be
2 generous with your money, be generous with your
3 money. But it's a lot of nerve to take a
4 locality and tell them that they are going to be
5 generous, and then say that we don't mandate.
6 The $500,000 a year may not be a
7 lot of money, but it's New York City's 500,000.
8 It's not our 500,000. That's the bottom line.
9 If the Republicans in this house want to put up
10 500,000 a year so that the New York City
11 district attorneys can get, quotes, "better
12 people", unquotes, as Senator Padavan is
13 indicating, I tell you that many of us from New
14 York City would be delighted to receive that
15 money.
16 But if you are not giving us the
17 money, just call this what it is. This is a
18 Republican-sponsored, nonfunded mandate on a
19 locality. And we got one day, and each day that
20 they are on the floor we're going to call them
21 and we're going to start making a scrapbook, and
22 then at the end of the session whoever wins the
23 lottery, the last Republican to stand up and
3426
1 talk about how they are against nonfunded local
2 mandates, we'll let you read the scrapbook.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
4 Padavan.
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Just a matter
6 of information for those who may not be aware of
7 it. This bill is sponsored in the Assembly by
8 16 Democrats from the city of New York.
9 So I would, therefore, take issue
10 with any categorization that it is a Republican,
11 quote, mandate. If it's a mandate -- and it is
12 -- it's a bipartisan mandate for the reasons
13 that I articulated in response to questions from
14 Senator Leichter and others.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Gold.
18 SENATOR GOLD: I said it's a
19 Republican mandate for one reason. We happen to
20 be in a house where the Majority are
21 Republicans, and it's convenient for them to
22 take credit when they want it and not when they
23 don't want it. You participate in, quotes,
3427
1 bipartisan taxes to the extent of $5 billion in
2 two years, and then you say it's always the
3 other house doing it.
4 Senator Padavan, if there were 16
5 Democratic Assemblymen who want to impose a
6 nonfunded mandate on the city of New York,
7 that's their business. I don't think you should
8 touch it, because that's not what I hear out of
9 your party all the time.
10 Now, if you want to touch it and
11 you agree with that as a philosophy then let's
12 start talking about what party owns or doesn't
13 own the protection of local governments
14 throughout this state.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
16 the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
20 the roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
23 the negative on Calendar Number 605 are Senators
3428
1 Daly, Farley, Galiber, Gold and Leichter. Ayes
2 50, nays 5.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
4 bill is passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 606, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 2742,
7 an act to amend the Retirement and Social
8 Security Law.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
11 Leichter.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
13 on the bill.
14 I'm going to vote for this bill.
15 This is a general pension extender, and there's
16 a lot of things in there that ought to be
17 extended.
18 But let me just tell you one of
19 the things that is in there which I wish was not
20 in there and which certainly makes the point how
21 this Legislature has added to the cost of
22 localities, has given some pension benefits that
23 are totally wrong. They are unconscionable.
3429
1 This one is the heart bill that goes to police
2 officers -- maybe it's also included in here for
3 firemen -- which has been shown to be such an
4 abuse benefit that we've given, where police
5 officers are entitled to retirement by claiming
6 that there is some heart disease that they have
7 that is deemed to be related to their
8 occupation; and, therefore, they retire without
9 a greater pension.
10 Just last week, Newsday had a
11 series showing some of the abuses. One of them
12 was a police surgeon who was allowed to retire
13 on two-thirds benefit. Not that he was in any
14 fire fight that may have caused some heart
15 strain. He did what my surgeon does. He
16 operates on people. Certainly not a reason to
17 give that person a greater benefit.
18 Nevertheless, he got it. We've had all sorts of
19 numerous cases where police officials who sat
20 behind the desk were entitled to retire by
21 claiming that there was some impairment of their
22 heart.
23 But even those officers who are
3430
1 out there walking the beat and God knows, we owe
2 them so much. But if we're going to give them
3 money, give it to them on a proper, rightful
4 basis. To do it on the basis that there is some
5 stress and strain on their heart which shows up
6 in heart disease is medically unfounded. Study
7 after study has shown that that is not the case,
8 that we don't consider whether the people who
9 have some heart ailment when they retire,
10 whether it's genetic, did it run in their
11 family, were they smokers, did they do other
12 things that may have caused that condition. To
13 attribute by law that there is some relationship
14 between the service of a police officer or the
15 services of a fireman is just wrong.
16 And it's cost the people of this
17 state, because I gather this is a statewide bill
18 -- I know that Senator Cook had a bill that
19 would have given the benefits for volunteer
20 firefighters. But certainly in the city of New
21 York, it's cost millions and millions of
22 dollars. You know, you get up -- particularly
23 those on the other side of the aisle -- and
3431
1 you, at times, talk about how the City squanders
2 its monies, and those of you who come from the
3 City demand that you get better services. Well,
4 one of the reasons the city doesn't have money
5 is because of these pension benefits.
6 I guess I have the reputation
7 here of being a big spender, of being friendly
8 with labor and so on. I'm proud to be friendly
9 with labor, but I think these pensions are just
10 absolutely wrong. They are unjustified.
11 Now, this bill, as I said, has a
12 lot of provisions in there that I think we have
13 to extend, but at least we ought to know that we
14 gave away an awful lot of money without any
15 reason, without any basis. I guess partly it's
16 because we do appreciate the work of police
17 officers, and I guess partly it's because we
18 appreciate the political power of police
19 organizations. It's unfortunate.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Volker.
22 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
23 I guess I got to. I normally don't respond to
3432
1 New York City legislation; but, Senator Leichter
2 -- Senator Leichter, you know, I have listened
3 to this dissertation on pensions, and I have to
4 kind of chuckle a little bit.
5 Senator, New York City police
6 officers are probably -- not probably -- have
7 without question one of the most dangerous jobs
8 in the world. The rate over the years of police
9 officers in this country killed or injured, New
10 York City has been at the top or near the top
11 for years. Now, thankfully, that has declined
12 somewhat. It's Los Angeles. Actually, the
13 numbers haven't declined. It's just that Los
14 Angeles has now taken over as the capital city
15 of maimings and killings and so forth.
16 The reason they're not at the top
17 of the list is because they have so many people,
18 so they do it on a per capita basis. But on an
19 actual base, they have really taken over the
20 market, so to speak.
21 But, Senator, I always am amazed
22 when I listen to these protestations about
23 spending in the city of New York. Senator, I
3433
1 will guarantee you that I will take one program
2 that the city of New York puts on every year,
3 and it will more than pay for all of the
4 pensions for the city police and firemen in the
5 city of New York. I will guarantee you that
6 each year, whatever mayor it is, offers up a new
7 program that's going to save the city of New
8 York and then comes back and says it's terrible
9 that we are forced to pay our police and firemen
10 these outrageous pensions and if we could just
11 somehow save that money.
12 But keep in mind, Senator, we
13 don't negotiate pensions for the city of New
14 York, and we don't negotiate pay. They do it
15 themselves, and they are the first ones to brag
16 about the police and firemen in the city of New
17 York and then oftentimes complain about what it
18 costs.
19 Senator, it ain't cheap to
20 protect the city of New York as policemen or
21 firemen. It isn't cheap at all, and I know you
22 understand that, Senator. But I'm only going to
23 tell you that one of the things I think that
3434
1 really aggravates me about some of the things
2 that I hear out of the city is that I know they
3 appreciate the actions of police and firemen,
4 but sometimes I wonder if they realize that
5 there is a price to be paid, and that price to
6 be paid is that they have to have adequate and
7 decent pensions for those people because
8 certainly they aren't paid enough to justify
9 those people being on the streets of New York.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
11 Leichter.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
13 Volker, don't do that. Don't do that. What you
14 did was wrong. Because you gave the impression
15 that in some respect I was unwilling to
16 recognize the work that police officers did or
17 was unwilling to see that they are paid or
18 unwilling to give them an adequate pension.
19 That was not my argument. You want to give them
20 a larger pension? That's fine, put it up
21 front. You want to give them more pay? Put it
22 up front. But don't do it through a phony
23 argument that in some respects these people
3435
1 suffer strain on their heart which results in
2 heart ailments.
3 That's my argument. My argument
4 is that that is medically unfounded. I didn't
5 say that they shouldn't get good pensions, and I
6 didn't say they shouldn't get good pay. I'm
7 saying that we shouldn't do it where the
8 Legislature makes a medical judgment that all
9 medical experts say is nonsense and that we have
10 seen abused.
11 And let me ask you. You have
12 risen, so I will ask you. Do you think a police
13 surgeon should be allowed to retire on a greater
14 pension claiming that he has heart disorder
15 because of the work that he did as a surgeon?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Volker, do you yield to this question?
18 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President,
19 sure I yield. Senator, I'm not aware that a
20 police surgeon did that. That may be true.
21 But Senator, I'm going to
22 respond by saying to you there is ample
23 evidence. One of the things that really
3436
1 aggravates me, Senator, is there is ample
2 evidence that law enforcement officers have a
3 far higher rate, heart rate. It's the New York
4 Times editorial board that doesn't want to
5 believe some of the doctors who say they have a
6 much higher heart rate and didn't give a damn
7 sometimes, I think, about some of the medical
8 evidence that says those people do have a much
9 higher rate.
10 And Senator, there is ample
11 evidence over the years that police officers do
12 have a far higher rate and that, in fact, in
13 some ways it may save the city of New York money
14 not to have to go through the litigation
15 involved in trying to redetermine some of the
16 heart cases that they have in the police
17 department and the fire department.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
19 President. Let me just point out -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Leichter.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- Senator
23 Volker, that the leading heart experts, and I
3437
1 studied the documentation on this. The leading
2 heart experts, Dr. Dudley from Texas and so on,
3 say there is absolutely no proof that the work
4 of a police officer or, for that matter, the
5 work of a fireman, which I guess physically is
6 much more strenuous, will cause heart ailments,
7 and you can't show me one credible medical
8 report that shows that's the case.
9 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
11 Volker.
12 SENATOR VOLKER: Will Senator
13 Leichter yield to a question?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Leichter, will you yield?
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes.
17 SENATOR VOLKER: Who was Dr.
18 Dudley hired by?
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: I don't know.
20 SENATOR VOLKER: Wasn't he hired
21 by the Conference of Mayors, the city of New
22 York, to make a determination on heart
23 ailments?
3438
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
2 don't know if that's the case or not. He is a
3 very respected doctor. Experts usually get paid
4 for giving expert advice, but I don't think that
5 means that their findings are wrong or should be
6 disbelieved, and I assume that the medical
7 report that you are going to bring forth was
8 paid for by the PBA.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
10 the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
14 the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 bill is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 607, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 3511,
21 Retirement and Social Security Law.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
23 the last section.
3439
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
4 the roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll. )
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
8 bill is passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 614, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number 4108,
11 State Administrative Procedure Act.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Leichter asked for an explanation.
15 Senator Wright.
16 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President.
17 The act would amend the State Administrative
18 Procedure Act to change an optional publication
19 of a regulatory agenda to a mandatory
20 publication requirement for six state agencies,
21 the six largest, most frequent producers of
22 regulations or revisions thereto.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will Senator
3440
1 Wright yield to a question, please?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3 Wright, would you yield to Senator Leichter?
4 SENATOR WRIGHT: I will, Mr.
5 President.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, my
7 notes on this bill show that a similar bill that
8 we passed last year was vetoed by the Governor.
9 SENATOR WRIGHT: That is correct,
10 Senator. It is not reflected in the memorandum
11 of support. That is inadvertently deleted in
12 its preparation. But, in fact, it did pass both
13 houses and was rejected by the Governor.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is this the
15 identical bill that was vetoed by the Governor?
16 SENATOR WRIGHT: Yes, it is.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do you know
18 what the Governor's objection was to the bill
19 that we passed last year?
20 SENATOR WRIGHT: In his message,
21 the Governor related that he felt that it was
22 overly burdensome to the agencies involved to
23 prepare the regulatory agendas. I, in turn,
3441
1 don't share that feeling that it's burdensome to
2 those agencies but, in fact, feel that the
3 burden is being placed upon the small businesses
4 and local governments being adversely affected
5 by the regulations; and, therefore, we need to
6 provide greater public information and vehicle
7 for participation.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Good. I agree
9 with you.
10 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
12 the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
16 the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll. )
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
20 bill is passed.
21 Senator Present, that is it.
22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
23 there being no further business, I move we
3442
1 adjourn until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate
3 will stand adjourned until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m.
4 (Whereupon, at 4:22 p.m., the
5 Senate adjourned. )