Regular Session - May 17, 1993

                                                                 
3639

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         9                       ALBANY, NEW YORK

        10                         May 17, 1993

        11                         3:07 p.m.

        12

        13

        14                       REGULAR SESSION

        15

        16

        17

        18       SENATOR HUGH T. FARLEY, Acting President

        19       STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary

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        21

        22

        23











                                                             
3640

         1                      P R O C E E D I N G S

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

         3       Senate will come to order, Senators will please

         4       find their seats.

         5                      Please rise with me for the

         6       Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.

         7                      (The assemblage repeated the

         8       Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

         9                      Today in the absence of visiting

        10       clergy, we'll bow our heads for a moment of

        11       silent prayer.

        12                      (A moment of silence was

        13       observed. )

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        15       Secretary will begin by reading the Journal.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  In Senate,

        17       Friday, May 14th.  The Senate met pursuant to

        18       adjournment, Senator Farley in the Chair upon

        19       designation of the Temporary President.  The

        20       Journal of Thursday, May 13th, was read and

        21       approved.  On motion, Senate adjourned.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Hearing

        23       no objection, the Journal will stand approved as











                                                             
3641

         1       read:

         2                      The order of business:

         3                      Presentation of petitions.

         4                      Messages from the Assembly.

         5                      Messages from the Governor.

         6                      Reports of standing committees.

         7                      Reports of select committees.

         8                      Communications and reports from

         9       state officers.

        10                      Motions and resolutions.

        11                      Senator Padavan.

        12                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Mr. President,

        13       on page 26, I offer the following amendments to

        14       Calendar Number 31, Senate Print 128,, and ask

        15       that said bill retain its place on the Third

        16       Reading Calendar.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        18       Amendments are received; bill will retain its

        19       place on the Third Reading Calendar.

        20                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  On behalf of

        21       Senator Volker, I wish to call up his Bill

        22       Number 3165, recalled from the Assembly now at

        23       the desk.











                                                             
3642

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

         2       Secretary will read Senator Volker's bill.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

         4       Volker, Senate Bill Number 3165, an act to amend

         5       the Penal Law, in relation to the definition of

         6       trade loans.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         8       Padavan.

         9                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  I now move to

        10       reconsider the vote by which the bill was

        11       passed.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        13       Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        15       reconsideration.)

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 31.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        18       bill is before the house.  Senator Padavan.

        19                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Mr. President,

        20       I now offer the following amendments.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        22       Amendments received.  The bill will retain its

        23       place.











                                                             
3643

         1                      Senator Mega.

         2                      SENATOR MEGA:  Mr. President, on

         3       behalf of Senator Cook, would you place a

         4       sponsor's star on Senate Print Number 2915,

         5       Calendar Number 832, on page 21.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Bill is

         7       starred at the request of the sponsor.

         8                      SENATOR MEGA:  On behalf of

         9       Senator Velella, I offer the following

        10       amendments to Calendar Number 713, Print Number

        11       4395, and ask that said bill retain its place on

        12       Third Reading Calendar.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Without

        14       objection.

        15                      SENATOR MEGA:  On behalf of

        16       Senator Libous, on page 44, I offer the

        17       following amendments to Calendar Number 698,

        18       Senate print 3928-A, and ask said bill retain

        19       its place on Third Reading Calendar.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Without

        21       objection.

        22                      SENATOR MEGA:  Senator Libous

        23       again, I offer the following amendments to











                                                             
3644

         1       Calendar Number 494, Senate Print Number 3517,

         2       and ask that said bill retain its place on Third

         3       Reading Calendar.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Without

         5       objection.

         6                      SENATOR MEGA:  Behalf of Senator

         7       Bruno -- the next three will be on behalf of

         8       Senator Bruno -- on page 39, I offer the

         9       following amendments to Calendar Number 615,

        10       Senate Print Number 4615, and ask that said bill

        11       retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Without

        13       objection.

        14                      SENATOR MEGA:  On page 39, I

        15       offer the following amendments to Calendar

        16       Number 616, Print Number 4616, and ask that said

        17       bill retain its place on the Third Reading

        18       Calendar.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Without

        20       objection.

        21                      SENATOR MEGA:  Page 39, I offer

        22       the following amendments to Calendar Number 617,

        23       Senate Bill Number 4617, and ask that said bill











                                                             
3645

         1       retain its place on Third Reading Calendar.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Without

         3       objection, the bills are amended.

         4                      SENATOR SPANO:  Mr. President.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         6       Spano.

         7                      SENATOR SPANO:  Mr. President,

         8       I'd just like to take a minute to make an

         9       announcement.

        10                      Over in the well, today and

        11       Wednesday is the OMH exhibition.  This is the

        12       sixth year that we have been sponsoring this

        13       exhibition with the Office of Mental Health and

        14       Assemblyman Steve Sanders, who is my colleague,

        15       who is my counterpart as chair of the Assembly

        16       Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities

        17       Committee, and I would ask that the members who

        18       are here and within earshot take a few moments

        19       to stop by, take a look at the works that are on

        20       display, all the works that are made from the

        21       hands of people who suffer from a mental

        22       illness, people who have been institutionalized,

        23       who show that they can, in fact, make a real











                                                             
3646

         1       positive contribution to our community, and I

         2       hope that the Senators who are -- who have

         3       psychiatric centers that are represented here -

         4       we have 19 psychiatric centers, many of them who

         5       are represented there -- will maybe get a chance

         6       to go down and say hello to their constituents

         7       who are there, take a look at some of the

         8       products that are being sold, everything from

         9       doughnuts to wall furniture is there.

        10                      Hope that everybody will take an

        11       opportunity over the next few days to stop by.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Thank

        13       you, Senator Spano.

        14                      SENATOR SPANO:  Thank you.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Are

        16       there any other announcements, motions on the

        17       floor?

        18                      Senator Present, I think it's

        19       your turn.

        20                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        21       I think it's time to take up the non-controvers

        22       ial calendar.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:











                                                             
3647

         1       Non-controversial, Secretary will read.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 26,

         3       Calendar Number 138, by Senator Saland, Senate

         4       Bill Number 2363-B, an act to amend the Social

         5       Services Law and the Public Health Law.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

         7       the last section.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         9       act shall take effect immediately.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

        11       the roll.

        12                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 34.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  That

        15       bill is passed.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        17       432, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2549,

        18       an act to amend the Education Law, in relation

        19       to -

        20                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

        22       aside.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number











                                                             
3648

         1       465, by -

         2                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

         4       aside.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         6       480, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 937.

         7                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Lay

         9       that bill aside.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       484, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 3600-A,

        12       an act to amend the Civil Service Law, in

        13       relation to the compensation of job titles.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

        15       the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  You can

        19       call the roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 34.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  That

        23       bill is passed.











                                                             
3649

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       538, by Senator Sears, Senate Bill Number 1547

         3       A, legalize, validate certain acts and

         4       proceedings of the town of Floyd, county of

         5       Oneida.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  There's

         7       a home rule message here at the desk.  Now, you

         8       can read the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        10       act shall take effect immediately.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

        12       the roll.

        13                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 34.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  That

        16       bill is passed.

        17                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside.  Oh,

        18       I'm sorry.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  That

        20       bill is passed.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       602.

        23                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yeah, I'm going to











                                                             
3650

         1       star that.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Lay it

         3       aside.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       608, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 4592.

         6                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Lay

         8       that aside.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       641, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 3428

        11       A, an act to amend the Family Court Act.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

        13       the last section.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        15       act shall take effect immediately.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

        17       the roll.

        18                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 35.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        21       bill is passed.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       654, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3362.











                                                             
3651

         1                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

         3       aside.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       657, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 4672,

         6       amends Chapter 483 of the Laws of 1978, amending

         7       the Public Health Law.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

         9       the last section.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        11       act shall take effect immediately.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

        13       the roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 36.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        17       bill is passed.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       658, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 4683,

        20       an act to amend the Public Health Law.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

        22       the last section.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This











                                                             
3652

         1       act shall take effect immediately.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

         3       the roll.

         4                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 36.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  That

         7       bill is passed.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       660, by Senator Daly.

        10                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside, please.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

        12       aside.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       673, by Senator Saland.

        15                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside for

        16       Senator Galiber.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

        18       aside.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       682.

        21                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

        23       aside.











                                                             
3653

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       699, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number

         3       4453-A, an act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law,

         4       the County Law, the Criminal Procedure Law.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

         6       the last section.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         8       act shall take effect immediately.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

        10       the roll.

        11                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 39.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        14       bill is passed.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        16       701, by Senator Farley, Senate Bill Number -

        17                      SENATOR GOLD:  Can I have one day

        18       on that, please?

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Lay the

        20       bill aside for the day.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       702, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 2430,

        23       an act to amend the Retirement and Social











                                                             
3654

         1       Security Law.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  There's

         3       a home rule message here at the desk.  You can

         4       read the last section.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         6       act shall take effect immediately.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

         8       the roll.

         9                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 40.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  That

        12       bill is passed.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       703, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 34 -

        15                      SENATOR GOLD:  Can we have one

        16       day on that, please?

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  What's

        18       your pleasure on that, please, Senator Kuhl?

        19                      SENATOR KUHL:  Lay aside for the

        20       day.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

        22       aside for the day.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number











                                                             
3655

         1       704, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 3739,

         2       Retirement and Social Security Law.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  There's

         4       a home rule message here at the desk.  You can

         5       read the last section.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         7       act shall take effect immediately.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

         9       the roll.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 40.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        13       bill is passed.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        15       706, by Senator Spano.

        16                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay aside.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

        18       aside.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       707, by Senator Velella, Senate Bill Number

        21       4379, Civil Service Law.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

        23       the last section.











                                                             
3656

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         2       act shall take effect immediately.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

         4       the roll.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

         8       bill is passed.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       708, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 4707,

        11       Education Law, and the Retirement and Social

        12       Security Law.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

        14       the last section.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        16       act shall take effect immediately.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

        18       the roll.

        19                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  That

        22       bill is passed.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number











                                                             
3657

         1       709, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 4942,

         2       Retirement and Social Security Law.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

         4       the last section.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         6       act shall take effect immediately.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

         8       the roll.

         9                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        12       bill is passed.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       719, by Senator Halperin, Senate Bill Number

        15       2587, an act to amend the Public Authorities

        16       Law.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

        18       the last section.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        20       act shall take effect immediately.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

        22       the roll.

        23                      (The Secretary called the roll. )











                                                             
3658

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  That

         3       bill is passed.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       720, by Senator Daly.

         6                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Lay aside.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  For the

         8       day, Senator Present?

         9                      SENATOR DALY:  For the day.

        10                      SENATOR PRESENT:  For the day.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Lay it

        12       aside for the day.

        13                      Senator Present, that's the first

        14       time through.  What's your pleasure?

        15                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        16       let's take up the controversial calendar.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        18       Controversial, the Secretary will read.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 32,

        20       Calendar Number 432, by Senator Cook, Senate

        21       Bill Number 2549, an act to amend the Education

        22       Law, in relation to annual meetings and

        23       elections.











                                                             
3659

         1                      SENATOR GOLD:  Explanation.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

         3       Explanation has been asked for.

         4                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Lay it aside

         5       temporarily.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

         7       aside temporarily.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       465, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 643

        10       A, Emergency Housing Rent Control Law.

        11                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President, I

        12       think Senator Leichter has an amendment and I

        13       don't know, Senator Hannon, I don't believe is

        14       here.  Lay it aside temporarily?

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

        16       aside.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       480, by Senator Lack, Senate Bill Number 937,

        19       Civil Service Law.

        20                      SENATOR GOLD:  Explanation.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  In relation to

        22       the duration of eligible lists.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator











                                                             
3660

         1       Lack, Senator Gold has asked for an explanation.

         2                      SENATOR LACK:  Lay it aside for

         3       the day, would you?

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

         5       aside for the day.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       602, by Senator Velella, Senate Bill Number

         8       4481, an act to amend the Insurance Law, in

         9       relation to the election of a Superintendent of

        10       Insurance.

        11                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Explanation.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

        13       aside temporarily.

        14                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President,

        15       would you recognize Senator Waldon?

        16                      SENATOR WALDON:  Mr. President,

        17       am I recognized?

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        19       Waldon.

        20                      SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you very

        21       much, Mr. President.  My colleagues, I

        22       respectfully request unanimous consent to be

        23       recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 702.











                                                             
3661

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  720?

         2                      SENATOR WALDON:  Seven-zero-two.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  702,

         4       O.K., without objection.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         6       608, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 4592,

         7       an act to amend the Civil Service Law.

         8                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Could we lay

         9       it aside.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        11       Trunzo, the request has been made to lay it

        12       aside temporarily.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       654, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3362,

        15       Chapter 198 of the Laws of 1978.

        16                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Can we get

        17       one day on that?

        18                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Lay aside.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Lay the

        20       bill aside for the day.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       660, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 3205,

        23       an act to amend the Social Services Law and the











                                                             
3662

         1       Public Health Law.

         2                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Explanation.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

         4       Explanation has been asked for, Senator Daly, by

         5       Senator Hoffmann.

         6                      SENATOR DALY:  Is this on Senate

         7       Print 3205?

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  3205.

         9                      SENATOR DALY:  Thank you.

        10                      Mr. President, let me begin my

        11       explanation of this bill -

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Before

        13       you begin, I'd like to ask for a little order in

        14       the chamber.

        15                      Senator Daly.

        16                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President, let

        17       me begin by just talking about what really

        18       precipitated this bill.  I'm holding in my hand

        19       a newspaper clipping from western New York, two

        20       newspaper clippings in fact, one which says

        21       Medicaid to Cover Birth by Woman with $160,000,

        22       another Medicaid Abuse Seen as Road to

        23       Bankruptcy.











                                                             
3663

         1                      Basically, what these newspaper

         2       stories are talking about, Mr. President, they

         3       are the PCAP program which is an exceptionally

         4       good program, as long as it covers the right

         5       people.

         6                      Now, under the existing law, any

         7       woman can qualify for PCAP, PCAP being, by the

         8       way, Mr. President, prenatal care, the birth

         9       itself and post-natal care.  Any woman can

        10       qualify for PCAP without listing -- listing the

        11       liquid assets of that -- that the family has

        12       and, in this particular case I referred to

        13       before, the family actually had $160,000 in

        14       liquid assets.

        15                      We debated this bill last year,

        16       Mr. President.  Let me begin also by commenting,

        17       this bill does not -- does not, I repeat, apply

        18       to people on Medicaid.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        20       Daly, there seems to be a lot of noise in the

        21       chamber, conversations, and so forth, and some

        22       of the Senators are having trouble hearing you.

        23       I'm going to ask that they either take their











                                                             
3664

         1       conversations out of the chamber or we'll ask

         2       them to leave the chamber.

         3                      Senator Daly.

         4                      SENATOR DALY:  Thank you, Mr.

         5       President.

         6                      The bill would mandate that any

         7       person who applies for PCAP aid would fill out

         8       the same form in exact...  and answer the same

         9       questions as required by people applying for

        10       Medicare -- Medicaid and welfare.  It's

        11       interesting that they both must fill out the

        12       same form, but those applying for PCAP do not

        13       have to answer the section called "Resources"

        14       dealing with liquid resources.

        15                      Now, what are liquid resources?

        16       The bill spells it out, Mr. President, and let

        17       me read that section to you.

        18                       "Liquid resources not to exceed

        19       $15,000", which is the limit we placed in the

        20       bill on the amount of liquid resources a person

        21       can have, "which shall be increased annually by

        22       the same percentage as the percentage increase

        23       in the federal Consumer Price Index.  Liquid











                                                             
3665

         1       resources, for the purpose of this paragraph,

         2       means cash on hand, negotiable instruments,

         3       demand deposits and time deposits within banking

         4       organizations, stocks, bonds and mutual fund

         5       shares, provided, however, such accounts

         6       designated as Individual Retirement Accounts

         7       shall not be considered liquid resources."

         8                      Now, if you interpret this bill,

         9       and I should say follow the program as this bill

        10        -- the existing law would have it, it would

        11       mean that anyone with a half a million dollars,

        12       a million dollars, in liquid resources could

        13       apply for PCAP.

        14                      Mr. President, we certainly are

        15       not trying to hurt or hinder or take away

        16       benefits from those people who require them.

        17       The point I'm making with this bill is that,

        18       one, to allow people with that amount of liquid

        19       resources literally hurts all of the programs

        20       that we have in the state for the poor, because

        21       it is -- it really destroys the credibility of

        22       our entitlement program and, when this story

        23       broke in my district, my -- my office was











                                                             
3666

         1       inundated with calls.  I received many letters,

         2       people who would complain about this and say

         3       this is an indication of why the entitlement

         4       program in the state is so bad.

         5                      Now, we've amended this bill this

         6       year, so that the last -- the bill before this

         7       house last year, we had a limit of $12,000 in

         8       liquid resources.  We've increased that amount

         9       to 15,000.  We've also added another paragraph

        10       and I'll read to you, "Notwithstanding the

        11       provisions of paragraph (b) of the subdivision,

        12       a pregnant woman shall be presumed eligible

        13       during such time as the Department of Social

        14       Services considers the exemption of available

        15       resources as provided."

        16                      So a person who is -- might be on

        17       the line, might be questionable, still will

        18       receive the prenatal care that she deserves.

        19                      In summation, Mr. President, I

        20       feel this law should be changed.  No one in this

        21       house would deny the right of the person in need

        22       to receive the benefits he or she deserves, but

        23       I submit to my colleagues that to have a











                                                             
3667

         1       loophole in the law where someone with liquid

         2       resources of 100,000, 200,000, 500,000 and on,

         3       certainly should not be subsidized by the people

         4       of the state.

         5                      We hurt the poor.  Here again, we

         6       have an example of where the poor can subsidize

         7       the rich.  No one wants to destroy or even

         8       injure the PCAP program, Mr. President.

         9       However, we don't think that the people of the

        10       state should be expected to subsidize people

        11       with large amounts of liquid resources.  We have

        12       a tough time as it is, Mr. President, taking

        13       care of the poor.  Holes in our laws such as

        14       this complicate that problem because importantly

        15       it hurts the credibility of all of our Medicaid

        16       and welfare program.

        17                      People tend to generalize and

        18       they see a loophole like this and they say,

        19       Look, that's what we're paying taxes for so that

        20       people with a half a million, in this particular

        21       case $160,000, can receive prenatal and

        22       post-natal care.

        23                      In essence, Mr. President, that











                                                             
3668

         1       is the bill and the purpose for the bill.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         3       Smith, I think was first up.

         4                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Mr. President,

         5       I wanted to ask if Senator Daly would yield for

         6       a question.

         7                      SENATOR DALY:  I certainly would

         8       yield.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        10       Smith, is that all right with you?  She was next

        11       on the list.

        12                      Senator Hoffmann.

        13                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Would Senator

        14       Daly yield for a question?

        15                      SENATOR DALY:  Yes, Mr.

        16       President.

        17                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Senator Daly,

        18       how many cases did you say had been documented

        19       of this alleged abuse in the PCAP program?

        20                      SENATOR DALY:  I did not say how

        21       many cases were documented, Senator.  Very

        22       frankly, I can't give you an exact figure, and,

        23       very frankly, it doesn't matter.  This is a











                                                             
3669

         1       matter of principle.  Even if there are only two

         2       cases in the state, no loophole such as that

         3       should continue in law.

         4                      There are -- there have been

         5       more.  We can estimate maybe a savings of up to

         6       a million dollars, again depending, California

         7       has amended its laws so that it too limits the

         8       amount, the availability of this program to

         9       those people with a large number, I should say a

        10       large amount of liquid resources.

        11                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Would Senator

        12       Daly yield for a further question?

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        14       Daly, will you yield?

        15                      SENATOR DALY:  Yes, I will.

        16                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Am I correct

        17       in understanding, then, that there are no

        18       additional documented cases beyond the one case

        19       that was the subject of a news story in your

        20       area, last year?

        21                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President, I

        22       didn't want to -- I didn't look for any more

        23       documented cases.











                                                             
3670

         1                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Mr.

         2       President.

         3                      SENATOR DALY:  The law stands as

         4       is.  I don't need cases, Mr. President, to tell

         5       me when I think a law is bad and should be

         6       changed.  Again, back to the principle, Mr.

         7       President:  Should the people of the state,

         8       those people who are earning 25,000, $30,000

         9       subsidize people with a half a million dollars,

        10       in this particular case subsidize a person with

        11       $160,000?

        12                      I think that's really a violation

        13       of the very intent of our entitlement program.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        15       Smith.

        16                      SENATOR SMITH:  Thank you, Mr.

        17       President.

        18                      Before we proceed, could you

        19       please explain to me what is the procedure for

        20       being recognized in this chamber?

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Well,

        22       generally speaking, it's the first person that I

        23       recognize that attracts my attention.  I saw











                                                             
3671

         1       your hand go up first, and then I saw Senator

         2       Hoffmann's.

         3                      SENATOR SMITH:  Is there not a

         4       procedure when you want to speak having your

         5       name listed so that you may speak?

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Yes,

         7       there is, if there's a long list.

         8                      SENATOR SMITH:  Thank you, Mr.

         9       President.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  I

        11       didn't list anybody's name per se.

        12                      SENATOR SMITH:  Excuse me.  I had

        13       asked earlier.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Yes, I

        15       understand.  I recognized you first.  Would -

        16                      SENATOR SMITH:  Mr. President,

        17       would you ask Senator Daly, if he would yield

        18       for a few questions?

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        20       Daly, will you yield to Senator Smith?

        21                      SENATOR DALY:  Yes, Mr.

        22       President.

        23                      SENATOR SMITH:  Senator Daly, I











                                                             
3672

         1       promise that this year I won't ask you when was

         2       the last time that you had a baby.

         3                      SENATOR DALY:  I think that's on

         4       the record from last year, Senator.

         5                      SENATOR SMITH:  Senator Daly, if

         6       a female has 12 children, what is the minimum

         7       under this legislation that she would be

         8       eligible to have in liquid assets?

         9                      SENATOR DALY:  Under this

        10       legislation, Mr. President, $15,000 but, Mr.

        11       President, of course, that does not apply to

        12       homes, automobile, only applies to the liquid

        13       assets that I read before from the bill.

        14                      SENATOR SMITH:  If a person has

        15       four children, what is the amount that they can

        16       have in liquid assets?

        17                      SENATOR DALY:  The bill, $15,000,

        18       Mr. President.

        19                      SENATOR SMITH:  So $15,000 in

        20       liquid assets would apply to a family of one,

        21       being a single mother, or to a person having 15

        22       children.

        23                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President, let











                                                             
3673

         1       me clarify that.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         3       Daly.

         4                      SENATOR DALY:  Under the federal

         5       PCAP law, you qualify when you're up to 185

         6       percent of the poverty -- federal poverty

         7       level.  Also the federal law itself changes,

         8       differentiates between a household with one

         9       child and a household with eight children.  I

        10       have a copy of that right here, Senator, and

        11       there would be -- when you hit 185 percent of

        12       income, for example, you would go up to

        13       $17,000.

        14                      SENATOR SMITH:  And how many -

        15                      SENATOR DALY:  I don't have it

        16       for 12.

        17                      SENATOR SMITH:  Would you yield

        18        -- would the Senator yield for another

        19       question?

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        21       Daly, you still yielding?

        22                      SENATOR DALY:  Yes, Mr.

        23       President.











                                                             
3674

         1                      SENATOR SMITH:  Senator Daly, how

         2       many people in that household for $17,000?

         3                      SENATOR DALY:  I'm sorry,

         4       Senator.  I did not hear that question.

         5                      SENATOR SMITH:  How many people

         6       would constitute a household to -- under $17,000

         7       to be eligible after $17,000?

         8                      SENATOR DALY:  How many people

         9       would constitute a household?

        10                      SENATOR SMITH:  If they had

        11       $17,000, how many people in that household?

        12                      SENATOR DALY:  That would be

        13       eight and, again, Senator, can I correct you?

        14       You said made $17,000.  This has nothing to do

        15        -- this has to do with the liquid resources

        16       they have available, does not have anything to

        17       do, for example, with their income.  That's

        18       handled separately under the federal.  We don't

        19       change that; we do not change that.  That stays

        20       as is.

        21                      Remember, this is a program

        22       subsidized by both the federal and the state.

        23       What we have is a figure for liquid assets, as I











                                                             
3675

         1       defined before, of up to $15,000.

         2                      SENATOR SMITH:  Would the Senator

         3       yield?

         4                      SENATOR DALY:  By the way, Mr.

         5       President, I might say if a person had that, was

         6       over 185 percent of the federal poverty level,

         7       they would not qualify for PCAP under the

         8       existing program.  We're not assaulting the

         9       federal guidelines or the federal standards, Mr.

        10       President.  We're dealing with that part of the

        11       law with which the state can deal and that deals

        12       with liquid resources and, again, I repeat to

        13       the Senator, you must, when you apply for

        14       Medicaid, list your liquid resources.  Isn't it

        15       interesting you don't have to list your liquid

        16       resources, your liquid assets, when you apply to

        17       PCAP?

        18                      And what we're saying, Mr.

        19       President, is to be fair that a person should be

        20       forced to list their liquid resources whether or

        21       not they're applying for Medicaid or for PCAP.

        22                      SENATOR SMITH:  Is the Senator

        23       still yielding?











                                                             
3676

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Are you

         2       still yielding, Senator Daly?

         3                      SENATOR DALY:  Yes, Senator.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Yes, he

         5       is.

         6                      SENATOR SMITH:  Senator Daly, how

         7       do we normally acquire liquid assets?

         8                      SENATOR DALY:  You acquire liquid

         9       assets by saving money, by investing, perhaps

        10       receiving it from your family.  May -- does that

        11       answer your question?

        12                      May I ask, would the Senator

        13       yield for a question?

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Would

        15       you yield, Senator Smith?

        16                      SENATOR SMITH:  Certainly.

        17                      SENATOR DALY:  Does the Senator

        18       feel that it is just and right for someone with,

        19       let us say, a half a million dollars in liquid

        20       assets and stocks and bonds to be subsidized by

        21       the people of the state for prenatal and post

        22       natal care?

        23                      SENATOR SMITH:  Senator Daly, I











                                                             
3677

         1       feel that, just because one of your constituents

         2       was able to circumvent existing law, does not

         3       mean that we should penalize all the other women

         4       of the state of New York.

         5                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         7       Daly.

         8                      SENATOR DALY:  I want to answer

         9       that.  Interestingly, the Senator did not answer

        10       my question when I asked her should someone with

        11       a half a million dollars receive the benefits of

        12       PCAP, as you can under existing law, and that's

        13       what upsets me.

        14                      SENATOR SMITH:  And -

        15                      SENATOR DALY:  I certainly don't

        16       want to take anything away from the person who

        17       needs it.  That's why I asked the question.

        18                      SENATOR SMITH:  I believe I asked

        19       him to yield for a question, and I asked -

        20                      SENATOR DALY:  And -

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  And,

        22       Senator Daly, I've forgotten who has the floor.

        23       Senator Smith, you've got it.











                                                             
3678

         1                      SENATOR SMITH:  Thank you, Mr.

         2       President.

         3                      Senator Daly, I believe that I

         4       have answered your question about your

         5       constituents and their non-compliance with the

         6       law, and I do not feel that the constituents

         7       that I represent who are honest, hard-working -

         8                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President.

         9                      SENATOR SMITH:  -- and often

        10       times on Medicaid.

        11                      SENATOR DALY:  Would the Senator

        12       yield for an important point?

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Would

        14       you yield to Senator Daly?

        15                      SENATOR DALY:  Please, Senator.

        16                      SENATOR SMITH:  I haven't heard

        17       one yet, but I'll yield.

        18                      SENATOR DALY:  Well, maybe I'll

        19       find one for you, Senator.

        20                      The point is this, Senator: You

        21       said a constituent of mine who did not comply

        22       with the law.  That's the problem; that's the

        23       problem.  She did comply with the law and,











                                                             
3679

         1       Senator, would the Senator recognize that if

         2       someone had $500,000 or a million dollars in the

         3       bank and applied for PCAP, applied for PCAP,

         4       that she would comply with the law and the state

         5       would have to recognize that?

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         7       Smith.

         8                      SENATOR SMITH:  Mr. President,

         9       may I continue now that he's given me some more

        10       questions to ask.  Will you yield?

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        12       Daly?

        13                      SENATOR DALY:  I will be happy

        14       to, yes, Mr. President.

        15                      SENATOR SMITH:  A few moments

        16       ago, you read to me the federal guidelines for

        17       PCAP; is that correct?

        18                      SENATOR DALY:  Yes, I did.

        19                      SENATOR SMITH:  And what did you

        20       indicate were the federal guidelines for PCAP?

        21                      SENATOR DALY:  185 percent of the

        22       federal poverty level.  Remember, Senator, that

        23       PCAP does not apply to anyone on Medicaid, first











                                                             
3680

         1       of all.  It only is, since people on Medicaid

         2       are already covered, this is for people who are

         3       above the Medicaid.

         4                      SENATOR SMITH:  Mr. President,

         5       would the Senator yield for another question?

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Would

         7       you yield for another question?

         8                      SENATOR DALY:  Certainly.

         9                      SENATOR SMITH:  Your constituent

        10       who circumvented the law, what was her income at

        11       that time?

        12                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President, she

        13       did not circumvent the law, and that's the

        14       problem with the law.  The law allows that.

        15       That's the point I'm making.  The law says -

        16       the law says, Mr. President, that when you apply

        17       for PCAP, you don't have to fill out that same

        18       question that you have to fill out when you

        19       apply for Medicaid.  You leave out -- you leave

        20       out liquid resources, liquid assets, so that

        21       person did not circumvent the law.  That person

        22       was fully in compliance with the law.  The

        23       county involved had to put the person on PCAP.











                                                             
3681

         1                      That's the problem.  If someone

         2       with a half a million dollars in liquid

         3       resources, liquid assets, applies to PCAP, she

         4       can -- and meets the rest of the requirements,

         5       she can not be refused.

         6                      SENATOR SMITH:  Mr. President.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         8       Smith.

         9                      SENATOR SMITH:  May I continue

        10       with my -

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  If

        12       Senator Daly is still yielding, which I think he

        13       will.

        14                      SENATOR DALY:  Certainly.

        15                      SENATOR SMITH:  Senator Daly, you

        16       said that there was a requirement under federal

        17       guidelines, did you not?

        18                      SENATOR DALY:  Yes.

        19                      SENATOR SMITH:  What were those

        20       requirements?

        21                      SENATOR DALY:  That income, as I

        22       said, they have to come within 185 percent of

        23       the federal -











                                                             
3682

         1                      SENATOR SMITH:  Well, you still

         2       haven't answered our question, Mr. -- Senator

         3       Daly.

         4                      SENATOR DALY:  What is it? I'm

         5       sorry.

         6                      SENATOR SMITH:  You keep

         7       circumventing it.

         8                      SENATOR DALY: Well, what -- would

         9       you repeat the question one more time?

        10                      SENATOR SMITH:  The question was,

        11       your constituent that circumvented the law, what

        12       was her income at the time that she received

        13       PCAP?

        14                      SENATOR DALY:  Obviously, Mr.

        15       President, her income was less than 185 percent,

        16       but what they had, Mr. President, was stocks and

        17       bonds from which they were receiving no income

        18       but which were in the bank which could have been

        19       sold, part of them could have been sold to pay

        20       for the birth of that child, and the care of

        21       that child, and I'm submitting, Mr. President,

        22       that's exactly the point of the bill, that

        23       person with that amount of money should be











                                                             
3683

         1       spending her own money or his own money for the

         2       birth of the child.

         3                      SENATOR SMITH:  Mr. President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         5       Smith.

         6                      SENATOR SMITH:  Is Senator Daly

         7       still yielding?

         8                      SENATOR DALY:  Yes.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Yes, he

        10       still yields.

        11                      SENATOR SMITH:  You stated that

        12       it is obvious.  It is not obvious, and if you

        13       are attempting to make new guidelines, then I

        14       think that we have to be a little clearer and

        15       have the evidence of what we are portraying so

        16       that we can make a clear decision, but you still

        17       have not answered the question that has been put

        18       forward.

        19                      SENATOR DALY:  May I try one more

        20       time? We're looking at two parts -- two

        21       different parts.  One says your income, how much

        22       money is your family receiving every week or

        23       every month.  That has to be under the federal











                                                             
3684

         1       guideline of no more than 185 percent of the

         2       federal poverty level.

         3                      But there's another section, Mr.

         4       President, that deals with liquid resources,

         5       liquid assets, money that you have in the bank

         6       or that you have in stocks and bonds -- I read

         7       the list before -- from which you're not

         8       receiving income at this time, but that money is

         9       there in the family.  It's sitting in stocks,

        10       bonds or whatever, not being used, and the

        11       purpose of this bill, Mr. President, is to tell

        12       those people who are -- who have that type of

        13       money, the liquid assets, they must use that

        14       money to defray the cost of prenatal care and

        15       post-natal care rather than the people of the

        16       state of New York.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        18       Smith.

        19                      SENATOR SMITH:  Mr. President, on

        20       the bill.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  On the

        22       bill.

        23                      SENATOR SMITH:  I would just like











                                                             
3685

         1       to ask that some of the comments from last year

         2       be added to this year, that nothing has changed

         3       and this is -- this bill is just as unfair to

         4       the women of the state of New York in 1993 as it

         5       was in 1992.  Thank you.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         7       Hoffmann.

         8                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Mr.

         9       President.

        10                      I want to praise Senator Daly for

        11       attempting to modify the bill that he presented

        12       last year, but I'm afraid that it does not come

        13       close to making it an acceptable piece of

        14       legislation and it embarrasses me somewhat to be

        15       in a chamber today with all of the problems that

        16       we have in the state and have something that

        17       smacks of a stereotyped element of prejudice.

        18                      I'm reminded of a song a number

        19       of years ago that was very popular on the

        20       country charts for a little while called

        21       "Welfare Cadillac".  It preyed on every

        22       conceivable stereotype about poor people and

        23       very self-righteously somebody sang about how











                                                             
3686

         1       tax money is wasted on and people who should

         2       have been out working and should not have been

         3       driving around in a Welfare Cadillac.

         4                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator

         6       Daly, why do you rise?

         7                      SENATOR DALY:  Will Senator

         8       Hoffmann yield for a question?

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Will you

        10       yield, Senator Hoffmann, to a question from

        11       Senator Daly?

        12                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  I will.

        13                      SENATOR DALY:  Going back to your

        14       comparison -

        15                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  It wasn't a

        16       comparison, I was reminded of something.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Please

        18       address your comments through the Chair.

        19                      SENATOR DALY:  Are you aware,

        20       Senator, that this doesn't apply to anyone on

        21       Medicaid, anyone on welfare, this bill?

        22                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Thank you,

        23       Senator Daly.











                                                             
3687

         1                      SENATOR DALY:  Are you aware of

         2       that?

         3                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Thank you.

         4                      SENATOR DALY:  Thank you.

         5                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  As I said, we

         6       are talking in stereotypes and we make reference

         7       to people who have allegedly taken advantage of

         8       the system and we're talking to a population

         9       where everybody feels over-taxed and over-worked

        10       and we know certainly most Americans, most New

        11       York State residents work until June or July in

        12       order to pay their taxes before they start

        13       working for themselves.

        14                      It's very easy to introduce a

        15       bill and talk about how it's going to end in

        16       abuse, but what is particularly sad about this

        17       bill and the thinking behind it is that it is

        18       aimed to end an abuse possibly based on one

        19       case, possibly based on many cases, but in

        20       attempting to curb an alleged abuse, it would

        21       create a tremendous step backward from the great

        22       strides that have been taken with a very

        23       important, necessary program.











                                                             
3688

         1                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President.

         2                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  On a national

         3       level, we have a problem in our country that

         4       puts us in line with many third world

         5       countries.

         6                      SENATOR DALY:  Will the Senator

         7       yield?

         8                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Our mortality

         9       rate is astronomically higher than it should be.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        11       Hoffmann, would you yield to a question from

        12       Senator Daly?

        13                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Yes, I'll

        14       yield.

        15                      SENATOR DALY:  Senator, my bill

        16       would say, or it does say, that if you have

        17       15,000, less than $15,000 in liquid assets you

        18       could qualify.  Can you give me a figure right

        19       now of how much -- the present law says that if

        20       you have a million dollars in liquid assets that

        21       you're not tapping at a particular time, not

        22       receiving income from, that you can qualify for

        23       PCAP.  Can you pick a figure for me, Senator,











                                                             
3689

         1       how much money should someone have in stocks and

         2       bonds so that they would not qualify for PCAP so

         3       that the prenatal care, the birth and the

         4       post-natal care would be taken care of by the

         5       family from their liquid assets?  Would you say

         6       that perhaps a family should be allowed up to a

         7       hundred thousand dollars?

         8                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Senator Daly,

         9       I am -

        10                      SENATOR DALY:  Give me a figure,

        11       give me a figure.

        12                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  You're through

        13       with your question.  I will respond to it, Mr.

        14       President.

        15                      In response to Senator Daly's

        16       question, no, I am not interested in picking a

        17       figure or discussing figures or even discussing

        18       the element of liquid assets in this issue

        19       because that is precisely the problem, as I see

        20       it.  My fear is that the introduction of this

        21       new barrier to people who are, in fact,

        22       deserving of prenatal health care, sends a

        23       terrible message for this state.











                                                             
3690

         1                      We have, as I started to say

         2       before, an infant mortality crisis in this

         3       state.  I am sorry to say that my district has

         4       one of the highest infant mortality rates in the

         5       state and, along with Senator DeFrancisco, I am

         6       very worried about the effect of any kind of

         7       barrier to prenatal health care for people who

         8       truly need it.

         9                      The issue of a means test is much

        10       more than finding out what assets are and what

        11       government's programs can address.  The issue of

        12       a means test when we are talking about prenatal

        13       health care is how a young woman -- how a young

        14       girl is going to be able to comprehend that

        15       there is a barrier and how she is going to get

        16       past that barrier in order to get health care

        17       for an unborn infant and for herself, and I

        18       believe that it is essential that we eliminate

        19       as many barriers as we can to bring the largest

        20       number of young women and girls into this net of

        21       protection.

        22                      We're now looking at ways that

        23       the state can assist funding school-based











                                                             
3691

         1       clinics to provide prenatal care for pregnant

         2       teenagers, even junior high school students in

         3       this state, who are asking for prenatal care for

         4       their infants and in order for them to get that

         5       care, there must be no barrier whatsoever.  They

         6       must know that they can easily obtain -

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         8       Present, why do you rise?

         9                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Senator

        10       Hoffmann, may I interrupt for a moment?

        11                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Certainly, Mr.

        12       President.

        13                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        14       may I have the last section of this bill read

        15       and have two people's names called so that they

        16       can vote.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        18       Secretary will read the last section of this

        19       bill.  There are two people to vote.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        21       act shall take effect immediately.

        22                      SENATOR PRESENT:  May Senator

        23       Oppenheimer's name be called?











                                                             
3692

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         2       Oppenheimer.

         3                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  I vote in

         4       the negative.  Thank you.

         5                      SENATOR PRESENT:  And Senator

         6       Marchi's name be called.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Marchi.

         8                      SENATOR MARCHI:  I vote aye.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Close

        10       the roll.

        11                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Have the roll

        12       call withdrawn.  Senator Hoffmann, thank you.

        13                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        15       Hoffmann.

        16                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  I'm not going

        17       to yield at this time, Mr. President.  I prefer

        18       not to yield, and I think I will wait and

        19       finish.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  She

        21       refuses to yield.

        22                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  I think

        23       there's been a lot of yielding going on, and I











                                                             
3693

         1       think I will stick to my train of thought and

         2       try to move things along a little bit faster.

         3                      I do agree with Senator Daly

         4       about abuses of this program.  I worry about

         5       abuses.  I worry about other things as well.

         6       One of the abuses I worry about is the

         7       tremendous absence of enforcement for child

         8       support, court-ordered child support by fathers

         9       who are not paying their fair share for the

        10       support of children they have helped bring into

        11       this world, and I wish that Senator Daly and

        12       other members of this chamber would aggressively

        13       pursue that tremendous abuse.  I understand

        14       we're owed something like a billion dollars in

        15       child support by delinquent fathers in this

        16       state.  That's the type of abuse that I think

        17       the taxpayers of my district would better

        18       understand than the potential abuse by one

        19       individual or even number of hypothetical

        20       individuals who may have had some bank accounts

        21       or may have had some stocks and bonds.

        22                      And let me point out in case some

        23       of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle











                                                             
3694

         1       have not thought of this, that very often those

         2       liquid assets that you are discussing, the

         3       liquid assets that are the basis of this bill

         4       are in the control of men.  There may, in fact,

         5       be a woman out there with a half a million

         6       dollars hypothetically in liquid assets who

         7       doesn't have a clue that there are a half a

         8       million dollars in liquid assets available to

         9       her or should be available to her, and there are

        10       probably many, many women and girls out there

        11       who don't know or don't have access to their

        12       family's financial resources, and to make a

        13       young woman or a teen-aged girl -- and I have to

        14       come back and say teen-aged girl again and again

        15       so that you grasp what it is that we are really

        16       talking about here -- we are talking about young

        17       frequently uneducated, very culture -- very

        18       often culturally deprived women, women and

        19       girls, who don't even understand the basics of

        20       medical care for themselves who have to learn

        21       what prenatal care for an infant is.

        22                      This is not your garden variety

        23       middle class family going to an obstetrician











                                                             
3695

         1       gynecologist getting ready to have a baby.  This

         2       program is for women and girls at risk and it is

         3       to give us a better start in educating and

         4       having healthy babies in this state, planned or

         5       unplanned.  Those, in fact, deserve to have the

         6       very best type of prenatal health care we can

         7       afford, and to be particularly callous about it,

         8       it is in the best financial interest of all the

         9       taxpayers of the state to see that they get that

        10       early head start on a healthy life because we

        11       know that the costs are astronomical to educate

        12       a low birth weight infant.  In fact, the

        13       American College of Obstetricians and

        14       Gynecologists, in opposing this bill, points out

        15       to us that the lifetime cost for caring for a

        16       low birth weight infant can reach $400,000.

        17       Let's bear that expense and let's ensure that

        18       some of those low birth weight infants can have

        19       a good head start on life and be meaningful,

        20       productive citizens.  Let's not prejudge them by

        21       prejudging the woman who didn't know what her

        22       family's resources were or failed to calculate

        23       correctly, and simply went to a clinic and said,











                                                             
3696

         1       "I'm pregnant; I want my baby to have the right

         2       kind of care.  I can't afford it or I don't

         3       think I can afford it.  Can a doctor see me?"

         4       Why would we punish that infant?

         5                      But that's what will happen under

         6       this bill because there are women there who will

         7       be discouraged.  There will be girls there who

         8       will simply not understand what these

         9       complicated forms mean and they simply will not

        10       go and seek that health care.

        11                      48 other states have taken

        12       aggressive action to streamline Medicaid

        13       eligibility and make the access to prenatal

        14       health care more readily available.  New York

        15       State has always had it readily available.  Why

        16       now, at a time when we still have a terrible in

        17       fant mortality rate, why now would we take a

        18       step backwards?  Why would we do something less

        19       enlightened to help stem the tide of these low

        20       infant births at a time when the rest of the

        21       country has recognized that we need to do more?

        22                      I understand the frustration

        23       about abuse of the system.  We all have to











                                                             
3697

         1       respond to that, but let's pick something that

         2       shows that we're going after the right people.

         3       Let's not pick something that is once again an

         4       example of poor bashing, an example of blaming

         5       those who can least defend themselves.

         6                      I'm not going to try to produce a

         7       dozen 14-year-old girls to come into the Capitol

         8       and explain and lobby why they need this

         9       program.  It should be self-evident why they

        10       need this program, but they are out there and we

        11       all represent them and we should all be

        12       responding to their needs, not to the abuse or

        13       the alleged abuse by one individual in one part

        14       of the state.

        15                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President,

        16       will the Senator yield?

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        18       Daly.

        19                      SENATOR DALY:  Would Senator

        20       Hoffmann yield now?

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        22       Hoffmann, would you yield to Senator Daly?

        23                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Certainly,











                                                             
3698

         1       Senator Daly.

         2                      SENATOR DALY:  Senator, are you

         3       familiar with the language on page 3 of the bill

         4       where we say a pregnant woman shall be presumed

         5       eligible during such time as the Department of

         6       Social Service considers the exemption?

         7                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  I'm familiar

         8       with most of the language of the bill, Senator

         9       Daly.

        10                      Mr. President, in response to

        11       Senator Daly's question, I would say again that

        12       it is not the language of the bill, it is not

        13       the dollar amount, it is the intent to establish

        14       a barrier that is the problem in this bill.

        15       We're dealing with a question here of semantics

        16       when Senator Daly asks me a question about do I

        17       know the language or what dollar amount would I

        18       find acceptable?

        19                      That is not the issue.  The issue

        20       here is that we should not be imposing a means

        21       test.  We should not be establishing the

        22       principle that Senator Daly has suggested be

        23       incorporated in this bill.  There's a very basic











                                                             
3699

         1       difference of opinion on that bill.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         3       Daly.

         4                      SENATOR DALY:  Mr. President,

         5       isn't it interesting that every time I ask the

         6       question, almost every time I don't get an

         7       answer.  I ask the people on the other side,

         8       give me a number, tell me how much money a

         9       person should have in resources.  I get no

        10       answer.  I have -- should someone with a half a

        11       million dollars in stocks and bonds be

        12       subsidized by the people of the state? I don't

        13       get an answer; right around the corner.

        14                      I ask people over there that have

        15       read the bill and they know that a person's

        16       covered, automatically covered until it's proven

        17       that she's not eligible.  I still don't get an

        18       answer.  As you know, Mr. President, it's very

        19       easy to become emotional about an issue like

        20       this.  We're dealing with children and you know,

        21       no one likes to feel that they're callous and

        22       uncaring but, you know, Mr. President, when you

        23       look at this particular section of law and











                                                             
3700

         1       compare it, you know, compare these people who

         2       are above the Medicaid welfare limit and see

         3       that they're treated differently and privileged,

         4       given privilege that Medicaid and welfare

         5       recipients do not have, a Medicaid and welfare

         6       recipient has to fill out that part of the form,

         7       a person whose income is above the Medicaid

         8       welfare eligibility limit does not.  So

         9       literally I see this bill as discriminating -

        10       discriminating against the poor, Mr. President.

        11                      Again, it's a matter of

        12       principle.  Should the taxpayers of this state

        13       be asked to subsidize people who have, in this

        14       particular case, $162,000, a million dollars?

        15       That's the hole.  That's the law.  The law says

        16       that, if you want people -- if you want to

        17       request PCAP, you don't have to tell the state

        18       how much you have in liquid assets.

        19                      We destroy the credibility of our

        20       entitlement programs, of our necessary Medicaid

        21       and welfare programs when we refuse to fill in

        22       holes in our law that exist.  We get complaints

        23       from the people all the time about the money











                                                             
3701

         1       we're spending on Medicaid/welfare.  They picked

         2       this up and, by God, the door is open and the

         3       screaming begins, and it hurts.  It hurts the

         4       poor people that require assistance, that

         5       deserve assistance, that should get that

         6       assistance.

         7                      All I'm saying is someone with a

         8       large amount of resources, liquid assets in this

         9       particular case, should not -- should not be

        10       subsidized, and people such as that should pay

        11       for their own.  To do otherwise again, clearly

        12       destroys the faith of the people of this state

        13       in our entitlement program, and welfare bashing

        14       begins all over.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

        16       the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        18       act shall take effect on the 60th day after it

        19       shall have become a law.

        20                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Slow roll

        21       call.

        22                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Slow roll

        23       call.











                                                             
3702

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Slow

         2       roll call.  Ring the bell.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Babbush

         4       excused.

         5                      Senator Bruno.

         6                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Yes.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Connor.

         8                      SENATOR CONNOR:  No.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Cook.

        10                      SENATOR COOK:  Yes.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Daly.

        12                      SENATOR DALY:  Yes.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        14       DeFrancisco.

        15                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  To explain

        16       my vote.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        18       DeFrancisco to explain his vote.

        19                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  I'm voting

        20       yes, and it's not because I'm callous, it's not

        21       because I'm against people getting quality

        22       health care.  I just seem to believe, have the

        23       radical thought if you have assets you should











                                                             
3703

         1       pay for your services, as opposed to having

         2       someone else pay for them, and I would think if

         3       the assets are liquid and there's $15,000, then

         4       it's not unreasonable to assume that someone,

         5       whether you're 13 years old or 50 years old,

         6       should have to pay for their own services

         7       especially when there's a presumption of eli

         8       gibility and there's immediate service.  So I'm

         9       going to vote yes for those reasons.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        11       Continue the roll.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        13       Dollinger.

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  No.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Espada

        16       excused.

        17                      Senator Farley.

        18                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Aye.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Galiber.

        20                      SENATOR GALIBER:  No.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Gold.

        22                      (There was no response. )

        23                      Senator Gonzalez.











                                                             
3704

         1                      (There was no response. )

         2                      Senator Goodman.

         3                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Yes.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         5       Halperin.

         6                      (There was no response. )

         7                      Senator Hannon.

         8                      (There was no response. )

         9                      Senator Hoffmann.

        10                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Mr. President,

        11       to explain my vote.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        13       Hoffmann to explain her vote.

        14                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  I was pleased

        15       last year that this bill was not voted along

        16       party lines, that there were, in fact, three

        17       members on the other side of the aisle,

        18       including the chair of the Health Committee,

        19       Senator Tully, who chose to vote against

        20       imposing restrictions of this sort upon the

        21       pregnant women of this state.

        22                      And so I would hope, once again,

        23       that we would have people think twice about the











                                                             
3705

         1       kind of message this sends.  The issue is not

         2       simply whether there are assets or whether or

         3       not there are assets.  The issue is that it

         4       creates a barrier, real or imagined.  If the

         5       barrier is there, and if it is going to prevent

         6       some young people, pregnant teen-age girls in

         7       particular, from obtaining prenatal health care

         8       and if it is going to create more low infant -

         9       low weight infants in this state and hurt us in

        10       terms of a higher rate of infant mortality than

        11       any civilized country should accept, then I

        12       believe it's a very bad vote, and I'm happy to

        13       vote no.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        15       Continue the roll.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Holland.

        17                      SENATOR HOLLAND:  Yes.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Johnson.

        19                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Aye.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Jones.

        21                      SENATOR JONES:  No.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Kuhl.

        23                      SENATOR KUHL:  Aye.











                                                             
3706

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Lack.

         2                      SENATOR LACK:  Aye.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Larkin.

         4                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Aye.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator LaValle.

         6                      SENATOR LAVALLE:  Aye.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         8       Leichter.

         9                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  No.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Levy.

        11                      (There was no response. )

        12                      Senator Libous.

        13                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Aye.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Maltese.

        15                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Aye.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Marchi

        17       voting in the affirmative earlier today.

        18                      Senator Marino.  Aye.

        19                      Senator Markowitz.

        20                      SENATOR MARKOWITZ:  No.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        22       Masiello.

        23                      SENATOR MASIELLO:  No.











                                                             
3707

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Mega.

         2                      SENATOR MEGA:  Yes.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Mendez.

         4                      (There was no response. )

         5                      Senator Montgomery excused.

         6                      Senator Nolan.

         7                      SENATOR NOLAN:  No.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         9       Nozzolio.

        10                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  Aye.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        12       Ohrenstein.  No.

        13                      Senator Onorato excused.

        14                      Senator Oppenheimer voting in the

        15       negative earlier today.

        16                      Senator Padavan.

        17                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Pataki.

        19                      SENATOR PATAKI:  Yes.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        21       Paterson.

        22                      SENATOR PATERSON:  No.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Present.











                                                             
3708

         1                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Aye.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Saland.

         3                      SENATOR SALAND:  Aye.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         5       Santiago.

         6                      SENATOR SANTIAGO:  No.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Sears.

         8                      (There was no response. )

         9                      Senator Seward.

        10                      SENATOR SEWARD:  Aye.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Sheffer.

        12                      SENATOR SHEFFER:  Aye.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Skelos.

        14                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Yes.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Smith.

        16                      SENATOR SMITH:  No.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Solomon.

        18                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Yes.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Spano.

        20                      SENATOR SPANO:  Aye.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Aye.

        22                      Senator Stachowski.

        23                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  No.











                                                             
3709

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         2       Stafford.

         3                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Aye.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         5       Stavisky.

         6                      (There was no response. )

         7                      Senator Trunzo.

         8                      SENATOR TRUNZO:  Yes.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Tully.

        10                      SENATOR TULLY:  No.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Velella.

        12                      (There was no response. )

        13                      Senator Volker excused.

        14                      Senator Waldon.

        15                      (Negative indication.)

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  No.

        17                      Senator Wright.

        18                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Aye.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        20       Absentees.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Gold.

        22                      (There was no response. )

        23                      Senator Gonzalez.











                                                             
3710

         1                      (There was no response. )

         2                      Senator Halperin.

         3                      (There was no response. )

         4                      Senator Hannon.

         5                      SENATOR HANNON:  Mr. President,

         6       to explain my vote.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         8       Hannon to explain his vote.

         9                      SENATOR HANNON:  I think it's

        10       necessary to measure the aims of the legislation

        11       and those people who have spoken against it, I

        12       think, have unsuccessfully tried to muddy the

        13       waters as to what the aims are.  This bill

        14       doesn't try to address problems of pregnancy,

        15       teen-age or otherwise, doesn't try to address

        16       uncollected support payments, and what it does

        17       try to do is whether or not some people who have

        18       sufficient assets are taking advantage of the

        19       system and measuring it in terms of those

        20       goals.  It doesn't address it perfectly, but it

        21       certainly addresses it perfectly enough,

        22       sufficiently enough, to support it.

        23                      For those reasons, I would vote











                                                             
3711

         1       yes.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         3       Hannon in the affirmative.

         4                      Continue the roll.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Levy.

         6                      SENATOR LEVY: Aye.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Mendez.

         8                      (There was no response. )

         9                      Senator Sears.

        10                      SENATOR SEARS:  Yes.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        12       Stavisky.

        13                      (There was no response. )

        14                      Senator Velella.

        15                      (There was no response. )

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        17       Results.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 33, nays

        19       17.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        21       bill is passed.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       673, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number 4417,











                                                             
3712

         1       an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and

         2       the Family Court Act.

         3                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Explanation.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

         5       Explanation.  Senator Saland.

         6                      SENATOR SALAND:  All right, Mr.

         7       President.  This bill would permit the crimes

         8       victims board access to sealed records for the

         9       purpose of enabling the board to properly

        10       investigate claims for crime victims

        11       compensation.

        12                      The board has determinations

        13       which it has to make which from time to time and

        14       sometimes frequently the information which they

        15       need to determine the eligibility of an

        16       applicant, a crime victim making a claim for

        17       services or payments, that information can only

        18       be obtained through records that may sometimes

        19       be sealed, and this would add the crime victims

        20       board to a list of other persons or groups that

        21       have access to such records in particular

        22       situations.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read











                                                             
3713

         1       the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         3       act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

         5       the roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         7                      SENATOR GALIBER:  May I have -

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         9       Galiber to explain his vote.

        10                      SENATOR GALIBER:  Yes, Mr.

        11       President.  Sorry I missed the debate.  I

        12       probably wouldn't be able to add much more than

        13       this but we start opening up a number of files

        14       in areas where I don't think it's necessary and

        15       the possibility once we open up the files, with

        16       all the protection we put around that open

        17       process, there's always that possibility of

        18       something leaking out.

        19                      We seal files where youthful

        20       offenders are concerned.  We seal files as far

        21       as juveniles are concerned.  Slowly but surely

        22       we've been making exceptions, and they were put

        23       there for a purpose.  As far as the victims no











                                                             
3714

         1       one's more concerned about victims than myself

         2       and others here in the chamber, but the danger

         3       some time to solve one problem we open up gates

         4       which create a number of other problems.

         5                      So I think there's not another

         6       way to do it, but I think the information that

         7       the Senator is trying to accomplish with this

         8       bill by opening up for the purpose of the victim

         9       in terms of victims' compensation could be

        10       acquired another way.

        11                      In the very beginning we have the

        12       statement of the probation reports, we have

        13       statements from the victims from the outset.

        14       There are peers report on the pleadings, peer

        15       reports on the sentencing and there are a number

        16       of other ways where we can accomplish the same

        17       thing.  I just think it's a bad practice to

        18       start opening up in areas where we've heretofore

        19       sealed for a good purpose.

        20                      I vote no.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        22       Results.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51, nays











                                                             
3715

         1       one, Senator Galiber recorded in the negative.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

         3       bill is passed.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       682, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number

         6       2399, an act to amend the Highway Law.

         7                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Could we

         8       have one day on that, please?

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        10       Stafford, what's your pleasure?

        11                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  A month!

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Lay it

        13       aside for the day.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        15       706, by Senator Spano.

        16                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Lay it aside

        17       for the day, please.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Laid

        19       aside for the day.

        20                      Senator Present that's the first

        21       time around.  What's your pleasure?

        22                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Will you drop

        23       down to 432, please.











                                                             
3716

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  432.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       432, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 2549,

         4       an act to amend the Education Law, in relation

         5       to annual meetings and elections in certain city

         6       school districts.

         7                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Explanation.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

         9       Explanation.  Senator Cook.

        10                      SENATOR COOK:  Mr. President,

        11       this bill gives to the residents of small city

        12       school districts the same opportunity to vote on

        13       school budgets as currently exists now in all

        14       the central school districts throughout the

        15       state.

        16                      The historic reasons why this is

        17        -- why different rules apply to different types

        18       of districts are somewhat obscure, but suffice

        19       it to say that when the voters changed the

        20       Constitution to remove the constitutional tax

        21       limit on small city school districts, the

        22       residents of those districts were given a

        23       promise on the part of, I think the Legislature











                                                             
3717

         1       and the Governor as well, that the law would be

         2       changed so that they would have the opportunity

         3       to vote on the budget, and this is simply an

         4       effort to make good on that obligation, and I

         5       think we owe to them.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

         7       the last section.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 18.  This

         9       act shall take effect immediately.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

        11       the roll.

        12                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 52.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        15       bill is passed.

        16                      Excuse me, Senator Nolan is in

        17       the negative.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51, nays

        19       one, Senator Nolan recorded in the negative.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        21       bill is passed.

        22                      Senator Present.

        23                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Calendar Number











                                                             
3718

         1       608, please.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  608,

         3       the Secretary will call up 608.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       608 by Senator Trunzo, Senate Bill Number 4592,

         6       an act to amend the Civil Service Law, in

         7       relation to extending the effectiveness of

         8       provisions establishing dispute resolution.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Read

        10       the last section.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        12       act shall take effect immediately.

        13                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:

        14       Explanation.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        16       Explanation has been asked for.  Senator

        17       Trunzo.

        18                      SENATOR TRUNZO:  Mr. President,

        19       this bill is a two-year extender for the binding

        20       arbitration for police and firemen.

        21                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Mr. President.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

        23       Connor.











                                                             
3719

         1                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Thank you, Mr.

         2       President.

         3                      I have an amendment at the desk

         4       that I would call up now and waive its reading

         5       and explain it.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

         7       amendment is here at the desk.  You have the

         8       floor.  Go ahead.

         9                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Thank you, Mr.

        10       President.

        11                      Mr. President, once again, we

        12       revisit arbitration for police and firefighters,

        13       a good idea, a necessary idea, necessary because

        14       certainly those are essential services that we

        15       cannot afford to have disrupted by labor

        16       disputes and really all the parties concerned

        17       have agreed that this is the way to deal with

        18       it, binding arbitration, deal with it in an

        19       objective way, make sure that we guarantee to

        20       our citizens no disruption in police or fire

        21       services.

        22                      The thing about this, Mr.

        23       President, is that year after year after year,











                                                             
3720

         1       two years after two years after two years, we

         2       see it extended, two years at a time.  Now, if

         3       it's a good idea, and I think we all agree it's

         4       a good idea, it ought to be a permanent part of

         5       the law.  In fact, Mr. President, I suggest that

         6       it's unfair and unseemly to have the concerned

         7       parties have to come back hat in hand to this

         8       Legislature every two years to get an extension

         9       of this law which really is not controversial;

        10       it's not experimental.  It has worked.  Every

        11       one agrees it's necessary and a good idea.

        12                      My amendment, Mr. President,

        13       would simply make binding arbitration for police

        14       and fire permanent.  Were there a time the

        15       people's representatives decided it wasn't a

        16       good idea, they could always repeal it.  But it

        17       just doesn't make any sense to take up the time

        18       of this Legislature every two years, to worry

        19       the representatives of the police and fire

        20       fighters that, Gee, arbitration might expire,

        21       we're in the midst of something with management

        22       in our respective area, and to have to come and

        23       say, Gee, we are going to get an extension.











                                                             
3721

         1                      I think we do this in far too

         2       many areas, Mr. President, and I think leaving

         3       aside what the reality is or isn't, I think the

         4       reality is, it's just a bad habit we have.  I

         5       think the perception is very, very bad that

         6       these groups are constantly beholding to the

         7       Legislature because if we simply sit on our

         8       hands, something like this binding arbitration

         9       would expire.

        10                      So I would urge all of my

        11       colleagues to just, once and for all, let's make

        12       it part of the permanent law.  It's a good

        13       idea.  It's a necessary idea.  Let's stop the

        14       charade every two years having to bring out a

        15       bill for a two-year extension, having to have me

        16       stand up and say, let's make it permanent and

        17       offer an amendment.

        18                      Frankly, Mr. President, it gets

        19       boring to see these kind of two-year extenders

        20       time after time, and I really think it's irre

        21       sponsible of this Legislature not to put this in

        22       the permanent law with all the management units

        23       concerned and all the representatives of police











                                                             
3722

         1       and firefighters knowing that that's the law.

         2       Let's deal with it that way.  So I urge adoption

         3       of the amendment, Mr. President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  On the

         5       amendment, all in favor say aye.

         6                      (Response of "Aye.")

         7                      Those opposed, nay.

         8                      (Response of "Nay.")

         9                      The nays have it.  The amendment

        10       is not accepted.

        11                      Read the last section of the

        12       bill.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        14       act shall take effect immediately.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Call

        16       the roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 52.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        20       bill is passed.

        21                      Senator Present.

        22                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        23       there are no housekeeping items at the desk?











                                                             
3723

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  We've

         2       got some housekeeping items.

         3                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Let's do it.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Senator

         5       Libous.

         6                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Thank you, Mr.

         7       President.

         8                      On behalf of Senator Sears, on

         9       page 50, I offer the following amendments to

        10       Calendar Number 187, Senate Print 2003, and ask

        11       that said bill retain its place on Third Reading

        12       Calendar.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:

        14       Amendments received; bill will retain its

        15       place.

        16                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Mr. President,

        17       on behalf of Senator Levy, I'd like to star

        18       Calendar 727.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  Bill is

        20       starred at the request of the sponsor.

        21                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  In behalf of

        22       myself, I'd like to star Calendar 581.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  581 is











                                                             
3724

         1       starred at the request of the sponsor.

         2                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Thank you, Mr.

         3       President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  You're

         5       welcome.

         6                      Senator Present.

         7                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         8       there being no further business, I move we

         9       adjourn until tomorrow at 3:00 p.m.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:  The

        11       Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow at 3:00

        12       p.m.

        13                      (Whereupon at 4:23 p.m., the

        14       Senate adjourned. )

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