Regular Session - June 15, 1993
4835
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9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 June 15, 1993
11 3:39 p.m.
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14 REGULAR SESSION
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18 LT. GOVERNOR STAN LUNDINE, President
19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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4836
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE PRESIDENT: Senate will come
3 to order. Senators will find their places.
4 All rise and repeat the Pledge of
5 Allegiance with me.
6 (Whereupon, the Senate joined in
7 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. )
8 Please be seated.
9 In the absence of clergy, may we
10 bow our heads in a moment of silence.
11 (Whereupon, there was a moment of
12 silence. )
13 Secretary will read the Journal.
14 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
15 Monday, June 14. The Senate met pursuant to
16 adjournment. Senator Farley in the chair upon
17 designation of the Temporary President. The
18 Journal of Sunday, June 13, was read and
19 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Hearing no
21 objection, the Journal stands approved as read.
22 Presentation of petitions.
23 Messages from the Assembly.
4837
1 Messages from the Governor.
2 Reports of standing committees.
3 Secretary will read.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino,
5 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
6 following bills directly for third reading:
7 Senate Bill Number 1313, by
8 Senator Levy, an act to amend the Penal Law.
9 1622, by Senator Goodman, an act
10 to amend the Social Services Law.
11 2057, by Senator Velella, an act
12 to amend the Executive Law and the Social
13 Services Law.
14 2686, by Senator Seward, an act
15 to amend the Real Property Tax Law.
16 2820, by Senator Hannon,
17 Retirement and Social Security Law.
18 2918A, by Senator Cook, an act to
19 amend the Town Law, the Village Law, and the
20 General City Law.
21 2956B, by Senator Pataki,
22 authorize the town of Amenia, Dutchess County,
23 to sell certain lands.
4838
1 3024, by Senator Cook, an act to
2 amend the Local Finance Law.
3 3265, by Senator Maltese, Social
4 Services Law.
5 3575A, by Senator Volker,
6 Retirement and Social Security Law.
7 3576A, by Senator Volker,
8 Retirement and Social Security Law.
9 3735A, by Senator Levy,
10 permitting transfer of credible service.
11 3737, by Senator Levy, to allow
12 Ricciardelli retroactive membership in Tier I.
13 3837B, by Senator Sears, amends
14 Chapter 711 of the Laws of 1992.
15 4295, by Senator Mega, an act to
16 amend the Penal Law.
17 4305A, by Senator Mega, an act to
18 amend the Penal Law.
19 4384A, by Senator Libous, an act
20 to amend the Mental Hygiene Law.
21 4600A, by Senator Bruno,
22 concurrent resolution, proposing amendment to
23 the Constitution.
4839
1 4603, by Senator Gonzalez, city
2 of New York to reconvey its interest in certain
3 real property.
4 4630, by Senator Johnson,
5 retirement credit to Anthony A. Tafuri.
6 4684, by Senator Levy, in
7 relation to affording retirement credit to
8 certain employees.
9 4829, by Senator Volker, Criminal
10 Procedure Law.
11 4890A, by Senator Libous, amends
12 Chapter 113 of the Laws of 1992.
13 4891, by Senator Libous, an act
14 to amend the Penal Law.
15 5007, by Senator Nozzolio, for
16 Tier I status for Allen Ingalis.
17 5229, by Senator Seward, Public
18 Service Law.
19 5270, by Senator Saland,
20 Executive Law.
21 5359A, by Senator Levy, payment
22 of transportation aid to the Roosevelt Union
23 Free School District.
4840
1 5436, by Senator Levy, Vehicle
2 and Traffic Law.
3 5437, by Senator Levy,
4 authorizing the assessor of the town of Babylon
5 to exempt from real property taxes.
6 5499, by Senator Saland, Social
7 Services Law, criminal screening of children day
8 care provided, reported with amendments.
9 5500, by Senator Saland, Family
10 Court Act.
11 5501, by Senator Saland, Domestic
12 Relations Law.
13 5540, by Senator Johnson,
14 Retirement and Social Security Law.
15 5584, by Senator Saland, Social
16 Services Law.
17 5601A, by Senator Tully, Public
18 Health Law.
19 5605, by Senator Tully, Public
20 Health Law.
21 5680, by Senator Libous, Mental
22 Hygiene Law.
23 5781, by Senator Montgomery, city
4841
1 of New York to reconvey its interest in certain
2 real property.
3 5799, by Senator Smith, authorize
4 the city of New York to reconvey its interest in
5 certain real property.
6 5806, by Senator Bruno, an act to
7 amend the Tax Law.
8 5812, by Senator Libous, an act
9 to amend the Tax Law.
10 5827, by Senator Espada,
11 authorize the city of New York to reconvey its
12 interest in certain real property.
13 5832, by Senator Velella,
14 Insurance Law.
15 5836, by Senator Spano, County
16 Law.
17 And 5842, by Senator Sears, an
18 act to amend the Local Finance Law.
19 All bills reported directly for
20 third reading.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Third reading.
22 Reports of select committees.
23 Communications and reports from
4842
1 state officers.
2 Motions and resolutions.
3 Senator Present.
4 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
5 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar on
6 our desks.
7 THE PRESIDENT: On the Resolution
8 Calendar. All those in favor, say aye.
9 (Response of "Aye.")
10 Opposed, nay.
11 (There was no response. )
12 The ayes have it. The
13 resolutions are adopted.
14 Senator Saland.
15 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, I
16 wish to call up my bill, Print Number 3383,
17 recalled from the Assembly and which is now at
18 the desk.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will
20 read.
21 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
22 Saland, Senate Bill Number 3383, an act to amend
23 the Social Services Law and the Executive Law.
4843
1 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, I
2 move to reconsider the vote by which this bill
3 passed the house.
4 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
5 will call the roll on reconsideration.
6 (The Secretary called the roll on
7 reconsideration. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42.
9 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
10 before the house.
11 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President.
12 I offer the following amendments.
13 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
14 received.
15 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, I
16 also wish to call up my bill, Number 3105B, also
17 recalled from the Assembly.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will
19 read.
20 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
21 Saland, Senate Bill Number 3105B, an act to
22 amend the General Business Law.
23 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, I
4844
1 move to reconsider the vote by which this bill
2 was passed.
3 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
4 will call the roll on reconsideration.
5 (The Secretary called the roll on
6 reconsideration. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42.
8 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
9 before the house.
10 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President, I
11 offer the following amendments.
12 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
13 received.
14 Senator Johnson.
15 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
16 I move to amend Senate Bill Number 4375B, by
17 striking out the amendments made on May 25,
18 1993, and restoring it to its previous Print
19 Number 4375A.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Without
21 objection, so ordered.
22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
23 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Johnson.
4845
1 SENATOR JOHNSON: Also, Mr.
2 President, I wish to call up Calendar Number
3 438, Assembly Print Number 4009.
4 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will
5 read.
6 THE SECRETARY: An act to amend
7 the Environmental Conservation Law, in relation
8 to state solid waste management.
9 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
10 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this
11 Assembly bill was substituted for my bill,
12 Senate Print Number 3534, on April 21.
13 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
14 will call the roll on reconsideration.
15 (The Secretary called the roll on
16 reconsideration. )
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42.
18 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
19 before the house.
20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
21 I now move that Assembly Bill Number 4009 be
22 recommitted to the Committee on Environmental
23 Conservation and my Senate bill be restored to
4846
1 the order of Third Reading Calendar.
2 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered.
3 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
4 I now offer the following amendments.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
6 received.
7 Senator Wright.
8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President.
9 On behalf of Senator Sears, I wish to call up
10 bill Print Number 4208, recalled from the
11 Assembly which is now at the desk.
12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Sears,
13 Senate Bill Number 4208, an act to amend the
14 Agriculture and Markets Law.
15 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I
16 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
17 bill was passed.
18 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
19 will call the roll on reconsideration.
20 (The Secretary called the roll on
21 reconsideration. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42.
23 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
4847
1 before the house.
2 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I
3 now offer the following amendments.
4 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
5 received.
6 You have another one, Senator
7 Wright?
8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Yes, Mr.
9 President. I would request that the sponsor
10 star be removed from Calendar Number 1000, Print
11 Number 4277.
12 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered.
13 Senator Kuhl.
14 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr.
15 President. On behalf of Senator Skelos, I would
16 like to place a sponsor star on Calendar Number
17 1103, Senate Print 5804.
18 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered.
19 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will
21 read.
22 THE SECRETARY: On page 21,
23 Senator Libous moves to discharge the Committee
4848
1 on Rules from Assembly Bill Number 7085A, and
2 substitute it for the identical Third Reading
3 896.
4 On page 26, Senator Padavan moves
5 to discharge the Committee on Rules from
6 Assembly Bill Number 5084A, and substitute it
7 for the identical Third Reading 1072.
8 On page 27, Senator Farley moves
9 to discharge the Committee on Finance from
10 Assembly Bill Number 1742A and substitute it for
11 the identical Third Reading 1076.
12 On page 29, Senator Cook moves to
13 discharge the Committee on Rules from Assembly
14 Bill Number 8122 and substitute it for the
15 identical Third Reading 1095.
16 On page 37, Senator Seward moves
17 to discharge the Committee on rules from
18 Assembly Bill Number 7815 and substitute it for
19 the identical Third Reading 445.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Substitutions
21 ordered.
22 Senator Present, are you ready to
23 proceed with the calendar?
4849
1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
2 will you stand at ease for a few moments.
3 THE PRESIDENT: Senate will stand
4 at ease.
5 (Whereupon, at 4:00 p.m., the
6 Senate was at ease. )
7 (Whereupon, at 4:01 p.m., Senate
8 reconvened. )
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
10 I think we're ready to proceed.
11 THE SECRETARY: On page 4 of the
12 calendar, Calendar Number 163, by Senator
13 Padavan, Senate Bill Number 245A, an act to
14 amend the Executive Law.
15 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
16 section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47.
22 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
23 passed.
4850
1 THE SECRETARY: On page 11,
2 Calendar Number 615, by Senator Bruno, Senate
3 Bill Number 4615A, an act to amend the Executive
4 Law.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
6 section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
13 passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 616, by Senator Bruno, Senate Bill Number 4616A,
16 an act to amend the Economic Development Law.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside for
19 Senator Leichter, please.
20 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
21 aside.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 617, by Senator Bruno, Senate Bill Number 4617A,
4851
1 State Administrative Procedure Act.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
3 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
4 aside.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside for
6 Senator Leichter.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 639, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number
9 4237A, relating to state aid to the North Warren
10 Central School District.
11 THE PRESIDENT: There is a local
12 fiscal impact note at the desk.
13 Read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll. )
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
19 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
20 passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 677, by Senator levy, Senate Bill Number 69C, an
23 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.
4852
1 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
2 section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45, nays 3,
8 Senators Farley, Johnson and Sheffer recorded in
9 the negative. Excuse me. Those recorded in the
10 negative are Senators Farley, Johnson and
11 Seward. Ayes 45, nays 3.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
13 passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 717, by Senator Bruno, Senate Bill Number 2700,
16 an act to amend the Business Corporation Law.
17 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
18 section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
4853
1 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
2 passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 763, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 4804,
5 an act to amend the Railroad Law.
6 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
7 section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
13 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
14 passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 799, by Senator Johnson.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
18 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
19 aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 896, substituted earlier today, by member of the
22 Assembly Murtaugh, Assembly Bill Number 7085A,
23 an act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law.
4854
1 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
2 section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
8 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
9 passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1013, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number
12 736, an act to amend the Social Services Law.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
14 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
15 aside.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1033, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number 4873,
18 to authorize Christina Greenhouse to apply for
19 optional retirement benefits.
20 THE PRESIDENT: There is a home
21 rule message at the desk.
22 Read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4855
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48, nays 2,
5 Senators Gold and Leichter recorded in the
6 negative.
7 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
8 passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 1036, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number
11 5018A, to require the Office of Mental Health
12 and the Office of Mental Retardation and
13 Developmental Disabilities to submit
14 recommendations.
15 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
16 section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50.
22 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
23 passed.
4856
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 1044, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number
3 5472, State Administrative Procedure Act.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
5 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
6 aside.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 1050, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 5750,
9 an act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside for
11 Senator Galiber, please.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
13 aside.
14 Let's have some order in the
15 chamber. It's hard to hear.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1059, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 5890,
18 in relation to authorizing the village of
19 Monticello to issue serial bonds.
20 THE PRESIDENT: There is no home
21 rule message at the desk. We will lay this bill
22 aside.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4857
1 1060, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number 281,
2 authorizing the county of Nassau to accept an
3 application for real property tax.
4 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
5 section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50.
11 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
12 passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 1061, by Senator Jones, Senate Bill Number 1264,
15 authorizing and directing the Comptroller of the
16 state to grant a hearing.
17 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
18 section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50.
4858
1 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
2 passed.
3 (Applause)
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 1062, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 1392,
6 an act to amend the Insurance Law.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
8 section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52.
14 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
15 passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1063, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number
18 1598, an act to amend the Real Property Tax
19 Law.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
21 section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
23 act shall take effect immediately.
4859
1 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51, nays 1,
4 Senator Pataki recorded in the negative.
5 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
6 passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 1064, by Senator Sheffer, Senate Bill Number
9 1724A, Environmental Conservation Law.
10 SENATOR SHEFFER: Lay it aside
11 for the day, please.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
13 aside for the day.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1065, by Senator Bruno, Senate Bill Number 1744,
17 an act to amend the Executive Law.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
19 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
20 aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 1066, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 1846,
23 an act to amend the New York State Urban
4860
1 Development Corporation Act.
2 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
3 section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52.
9 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
10 passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 1067, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number
13 1933, an act to amend the Public Health Law, in
14 relation to the Senator Tarky Lombardi Nursing
15 Home.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
17 section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
21 just to explain my vote briefly.
22 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Skelos.
23 SENATOR SKELOS: During his
4861
1 tenure as a state Senator, I know Senator
2 Lombardi loved being chairman of the Health
3 Committee; and under his leadership with that
4 committee, he passed many innovative programs
5 such as the Nursing Home Without Walls program.
6 So I think it's a fitting tribute
7 to his career as Senator that we name this
8 program after him, and I vote in the
9 affirmative.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
11 section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53.
17 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
18 passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1069, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number -
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
22 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
23 aside.
4862
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 1070, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number
3 2495A, an act to authorize the town of Lansing,
4 Tompkins County, to use certain land.
5 THE PRESIDENT: There is a home
6 rule message at the desk.
7 Read the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53.
13 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
14 passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1072, substituted earlier today, by member of
17 the Assembly McLaughlin, Assembly Bill Number
18 5084A, Alcoholic Beverage Control Law.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
20 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
21 aside.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 10 -
4863
1 SENATOR GOLD: Hold one second,
2 Mr. President.
3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Gold.
4 SENATOR GOLD: On Assemblyman
5 McLaughlin's bill, 1072, do you want to read the
6 last section.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
8 section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Gold.
15 SENATOR GOLD: I ask unanimous
16 consent to abstain from voting on the bill.
17 THE PRESIDENT: Without
18 objection, so ordered.
19 Call the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50, nays 2,
22 Senators DeFrancisco and Sears recorded in the
23 negative.
4864
1 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
2 passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 1076, substituted earlier today, by member of
5 the Assembly Brodski, Assembly Bill Number
6 1742A, New York State Printing and Public
7 Documents Law.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
9 section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53.
15 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
16 passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 1077, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill Number
19 3755, Education Law, in relation to
20 transportation of students.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
22 section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4865
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52, nays 1,
5 Senator Daly recorded in the negative.
6 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
7 passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Excuse me, also
9 Senator Jones recorded in the negative.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1078, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number
12 3827, an act to amend the General Municipal
13 Law.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
15 section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll. )
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53.
21 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
22 passed.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
4866
1 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Gold.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Mr.
3 President. If Calendar Number 1062 has not left
4 the house, I understand that Senator Solomon
5 would like that laid aside.
6 Yes, thank you. On his behalf, I
7 would like to move to reconsider the vote by
8 which the bill was passed.
9 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
10 will call the roll on reconsideration.
11 (The Secretary called the roll on
12 reconsideration. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
14 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
15 before the house.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Lay the bill
17 aside.
18 THE SECRETARY: The bill is laid
19 aside. That was 1062, right?
20 SENATOR GOLD: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 1079, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number
23 3931, an act to amend the Public authorities
4867
1 Law.
2 THE PRESIDENT: There is a home
3 rule message at the desk.
4 Read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Have some order
11 in the house, please. The bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 1080, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Bill Number
14 4016, an act to amend the Town Law and the
15 Public Officers Law.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
17 section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
23 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
4868
1 passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1082, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number
4 4182, Retirement and Social Security Law.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
6 section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
13 passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 1083, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 4455A,
16 an act to amend the General City Law, in
17 relation to plumbing inspectors.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
19 section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
21 act shall take effect immediately.
22 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4869
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
2 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
3 passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 1085, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number
6 4604, New York City Civil Court Act.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
8 section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
14 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
15 passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1087, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill Number
18 4727, relating to the transfer of certain
19 service credits.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
21 section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
23 act shall take effect immediately.
4870
1 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53, nays 2,
4 Senators Galiber and Gold recorded in the
5 negative.
6 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
7 passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 1088, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill Number
10 4853, an act to amend the Environmental
11 Conservation Law.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
13 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
14 aside.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1089, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 4901,
17 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
19 section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
21 act shall take effect immediately.
22 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4871
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53, nays 2.
2 Senators Gold and Leichter recorded in the
3 negative. Also Senator Galiber recorded in the
4 negative.
5 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
6 passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 1090, by Senator Hannon, Senate Bill Number
9 4907A, an act to amend the Public Officers Law.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
11 section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
17 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
18 passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1091, by Senator Velella.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
22 for the day.
23 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
4872
1 aside for the day.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1092, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill Number
4 5093, Environmental Conservation Law.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
6 section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediate immediately.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
13 passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 1093, by Senator Libous, Senate Bill Number
16 5134, authorize the county legislature of the
17 county of Tioga to dissolve the Tioga County
18 Solid Waste District.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
20 section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
4873
1 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
3 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
4 passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 1094, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 5200,
7 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
8 Law.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
10 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
11 aside.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 1095, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly
14 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 8122,
15 an act to amend the Education Law.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
17 section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
23 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
4874
1 passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1096, by Senator Padavan, Senate Bill Number
4 5446, an act to amend the Penal Law and the
5 Administrative Code of the city of New York.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
7 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
8 aside.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 1097, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number
11 5735, an act to amend the General Municipal
12 Law.
13 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
14 section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
16 act shall take effect immediately.
17 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
20 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
21 passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 1098, by Senator Seward, Senate Bill Number
4875
1 5767, an act to continue the existence of the
2 village of Croton Industrial Development
3 Agency.
4 THE PRESIDENT: There is a home
5 rule message at the desk.
6 Read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
13 passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Excuse me. Ayes
15 57, nays 1, Senator Leichter recorded in the
16 negative.
17 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
18 passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1099, by Senator Sheffer, Senate Bill Number
21 5771, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic
22 Law, in relation to the period of snowmobile
23 registration.
4876
1 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
2 section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
8 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
9 passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1100, by Senator Levy, Senate Bill Number 5786,
12 amends Chapter -
13 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside.
14 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
15 aside.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1104, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number
18 5792, an act to amend the Village Law.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
20 section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
4877
1 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
3 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
4 passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 1105, by Senator Marino.
7 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside.
8 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
9 aside.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1106, by Senator Marino.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside.
13 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
14 aside.
15 That completes action on the
16 non-controversial calendar.
17 Senator Maltese.
18 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
19 may I ask unanimous consent to be recorded in
20 the negative on Calendar Number 677.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Without
22 objection, so ordered.
23 Senator Skelos.
4878
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
2 please place a sponsor star on Calendar Number
3 1068.
4 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
5 starred.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Leichter.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: May I have
9 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
10 on Calendar 1097, please.
11 THE PRESIDENT: Without
12 objection, so ordered.
13 Senator Bruno.
14 Senator Leichter, on 1097, to be
15 recorded in the negative.
16 Senator Bruno.
17 SENATOR BRUNO: I request
18 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
19 on Senate 69-C, Calendar Number 677.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Without
21 objection, so ordered.
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, Mr.
23 President.
4879
1 (Whereupon, Senator Padavan was
2 in the chair.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
4 Senator Farley.
5 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President,
6 may we return to motions for a moment?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
8 Motions and resolutions.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Mr.
10 President, on page 7, I offer the following
11 amendments to Calendar 322, Senate Print 2730,
12 and I ask that this bill retain its place on the
13 Third Reading Calendar.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
15 Amendments accepted, and the bill retains its
16 place on the calendar.
17 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
18 myself again, on the starred calendar, on page
19 35, I offer the following amendments to Calendar
20 204, Senate Print 992-A, and ask that that bill
21 retain its place.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
23 Amendments accepted. The bill retains its place
4880
1 on the calendar.
2 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
3 Senator Cook, on page 38, I offer the following
4 amendments to Calendar 633, Senate Print 3203-A,
5 and I ask that that bill retain its place on the
6 Third Reading Calendar.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: So
8 ordered.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
11 Senator Present. Senate will resume to its
12 business. We are on the controversial
13 calendar.
14 The Secretary will read.
15 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
16 will you call up Calendar 799, please.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: 799.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 799, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
20 4139A, Environmental Conservation Law.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
23 Explanation, Senator Johnson. 799, Senator.
4881
1 SENATOR JOHNSON: We have a
2 request for an explanation?
3 This bill expands upon a
4 regulation established to protect surf clams by
5 protecting their cousins, the ocean quahogs, in
6 the same manner by limiting the daily catch to
7 14 cages per vessel.
8 This is supported by the Marine
9 Resources Advisory Council at Stony Brook
10 University and the concerned industry members.
11 The only ones who might not like it are several
12 large Jersey boats who are coming into our
13 waters and taking this resource.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator yield to a
15 question?
16 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
17 SENATOR GOLD: I want to ask this
18 one quietly unless it sounds like I'm not too
19 bright; but what is a quahog?
20 SENATOR JOHNSON: It is the first
21 cousin of a surf clam.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Is that by
23 marriage?
4882
1 SENATOR JOHNSON: Quahog was the
2 Indian name for clam, actually. But now they
3 are differentiated. If you know Latin, I can
4 tell you have all the differentiation, but
5 essentially they're cousins, and they go into
6 soups and chowders and things of that nature.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Will Senator
8 yield to one more question?
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Will
10 the Senator yield?
11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
12 SENATOR GOLD: I have a piece of
13 correspondence which says that the Department of
14 Environmental Conservation opposes this as
15 unnecessary. Have you seen the memo on that?
16 SENATOR JOHNSON: No, matter of
17 fact -
18 SENATOR GOLD: I haven't either.
19 SENATOR JOHNSON: -- I haven't,
20 no. Thank you, Senator.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Read
22 the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4883
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll. )
5 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
6 Results.
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58, nays 1,
8 Senator LaValle recorded in the negative.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: The
10 bill is passed.
11 Senator Present.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Call up
13 Calendar 1044, please.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
15 Calendar Number 1044.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1044, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number
18 5472, an act to amend the State Administrative
19 Procedure Act.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
22 Explanation, Senator Wright.
23 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President,
4884
1 the bill restricts the circumstances under which
2 a state agency can adopt a rule on an emergency
3 basis.
4 We've had a number of continuing
5 instances where the disclosure and publication
6 requirements under the State Administrative
7 Procedure Act have been avoided utilizing the
8 emergency rulemaking, and we believe that's
9 being done excessively.
10 We believe this bill addresses
11 the original legislative intent, and by
12 inserting the language "imminent danger" speaks
13 to that particular issue.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
15 would Senator Wright yield?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
17 Senator, will you yield?
18 SENATOR WRIGHT: Yes, I will.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Senator,
20 can you give us some examples of instances where
21 the emergency rulemaking power was abused, in
22 your view?
23 SENATOR WRIGHT: Yes. For
4885
1 example, with the Department of Social Services,
2 they promulgated rules as it relates to personal
3 care services under emergency provisions and
4 ultimately, they received a letter of
5 non-compliance from the Office of Business
6 Permits and Regulatory Assistance. Not only did
7 they not use the State Administrative Procedures
8 Act so that people could comment on it during
9 the 45-day period but they also exceeded, in
10 establishing reimbursement rates, their
11 authority under statute by imposing late fees
12 and a number of additional definitions that were
13 never authorized in statute.
14 So it was not, number 1, an
15 emergency; and, number 2, they took the
16 opportunity without full disclosure and
17 publication to really exceed their legislative
18 intent.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: When was that,
20 Senator Wright?
21 SENATOR WRIGHT: That was March
22 of 1993. So that's a recent example that we
23 wanted to utilize.
4886
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: You say that
2 that particular rule was issued under the
3 emergency power under Section 202, Subdivision
4 6?
5 SENATOR WRIGHT: Yes, it was
6 proposed on an emergency basis.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I'm
8 not aware of this particular instance, although
9 I certainly accept your characterization. But
10 I'm not aware that we've had a problem where
11 this has occurred on an ongoing basis so as to
12 necessitate a change in the law.
13 You have given us one example.
14 There may well be others, but considering the
15 fact that there are hundreds of rules that are
16 issued under this particular provision, I just
17 don't see that we've had a problem that requires
18 us to so drastically change this law.
19 Can you give us any reason other
20 than maybe some general animosity to rulemaking?
21 SENATOR WRIGHT: I can relate a
22 series of additional examples, but I won't
23 belabor the point with them. What I can reflect
4887
1 is that, if you look at the number of rules that
2 have been adopted under the emergency
3 proceedings last year alone, it is some 25
4 percent of all the rules adopted. So we're
5 exceeding 25 percent, and again this year to
6 date, we're exceeding last year's efforts and
7 we'll actually exceed 25 percent of all the
8 rules by those agencies being adopted under
9 emergency procedures.
10 I'm not convinced and I believe
11 my colleagues would not be convinced. If you
12 take the time to look at all of those instances,
13 you will see that they are utilizing a very
14 broad definition of emergency.
15 And, in fact, many of those
16 examples relate to fees that do not have any
17 particular impact on the public health, welfare
18 or safety in this state. So I think there is a
19 rather broad interpretation, and that's our
20 reason for providing a more strict definition
21 that would result in greater immediacy to the
22 emergency.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, is it
4888
1 not a fact that many of the instances where the
2 state agencies have to resort to the emergency
3 power was because of fedeeral requirements? They
4 were forced to do that because either a federal
5 law or a federal agency that had superior power
6 in that field required that that be done. Isn't
7 that the case?
8 SENATOR WRIGHT: That's not the
9 majority of instances. There are a few
10 exceptions to that. But under other legislation
11 that we previously debated, and this house has
12 passed, we would address that particular
13 difficulty by having adopted those federal
14 standards as minimums.
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
16 on the bill.
17 I thank Senator Wright for his
18 explanation, but I think what we see here is the
19 general antagonism by many members of the
20 Majority to rulemaking powers that exist out of
21 necessity in state administrative agencies. We
22 happen to live in an increasingly complex
23 society where much of the fine tuning of
4889
1 statutory direction and mandate must be done by
2 agency.
3 I'm not saying it's always done
4 well or always done properly. I'm not saying
5 that there haven't been instances where
6 emergency rules have been issued where you and
7 I, Senator Wright, may agree that it should not
8 have been done, but what you have done is to so
9 narrow the power of agencies to issue these
10 emergency rules because you keep on putting in
11 the words "imminent danger".
12 What's an imminent danger? That
13 people are going to be killed? That property is
14 going to be destroyed? There are many instances
15 where we need these agencies to act because one
16 example I gave it's required by the federal
17 government. Another one is because it would
18 carry out legislative purpose and intent to get
19 something that needs to be done immediately.
20 You are trying to hamstring
21 government, and we saw what happens when you go
22 into blind deregulation, and this is what the
23 basic theory here is. We had blind deregulation
4890
1 in the Reagan years. It ended up with the
2 biggest scandal that we've ever seen, the $500
3 billion S and L scandal. I'm not saying this is
4 going to lead to that sort of a problem, but I'm
5 saying that blind deregulation, trying to
6 cripple government, keeping agencies from doing
7 what they need to do to protect the public or
8 help the public, is not in the public interest.
9 I'm not aware that there have
10 been any real problems with agencies exceeding
11 their powers by resorting to emergency
12 rulemaking. You have given an example. You are
13 correct on that example. I'm sure there are
14 others. But there isn't a pattern of abuse.
15 There isn't a broad area of problem that
16 requires this sort of overreaction by the
17 Legislature.
18 And I say again that you have
19 defined this so narrowly, the word "imminent
20 danger". Again what is an imminent danger?
21 Imminent danger is a catastrophe. That's the
22 only instance you are going to allow these state
23 agencies to act. I really think that's unwise,
4891
1 Senator.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Read
3 the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
10 Results.
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 3,
12 Senators Galiber, Gold and Leichter recorded in
13 the negative.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: The
15 bill is passed. Senator Present.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
17 call up Calendar 1050.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: 1050.
19 Secretary will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1050, by Senator Spano, Senate Bill Number 5750,
22 an act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law.
23 SENATOR GALIBER: Explanation.
4892
1 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
2 Explanation. Senator Spano.
3 SENATOR SPANO: Mr. President, as
4 most of the members are aware, we went through a
5 very difficult period during the last budget
6 process, which ultimately resulted in an
7 agreement to close several of the psychiatric
8 centers in the state. The Governor had
9 presented us with an accelerated closure plan.
10 We were able to reach an agreement with respect
11 to Kings Park to hold it off for a year, Harlem
12 Valley to hold off for seven months, and to make
13 the decision to close the Gowanda Psychiatric
14 Center.
15 What this bill does, very simply,
16 is to amend the Mental Hygiene Law and delete
17 Gowanda Psychiatric Center from the list of the
18 hospitals that are named in that section of the
19 Mental Hygiene Law.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
21 Senator Galiber.
22 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, do you
23 have any -
4893
1 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Will
2 the Senator yield?
3 SENATOR GALIBER: I'm sorry.
4 Will you yield, Senator?
5 SENATOR SPANO: Sure.
6 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, do you
7 have any independent knowledge as to what will
8 happen after this closure of Gowanda?
9 SENATOR SPANO: I know that
10 currently part of Gowanda is currently a
11 prison. There have been some discussions about
12 the possibility of public corrections putting
13 additional prison space over there at that
14 facility, but at this point we haven't heard
15 anything concrete about that at all.
16 The reason that we have this bill
17 before us, Senator Galiber, is that there are
18 currently twelve patients at this facility
19 costing us approximately $1 million a year, and
20 we feel that it would make sense to close it.
21 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator -- will
22 you yield for a question, Senator?
23 SENATOR SPANO: Sure.
4894
1 SENATOR GALIBER: Or a statement
2 with a question form, anyway?
3 I know of your sensitivity in
4 terms of closing these centers out. Would your
5 position have been, if possible in the real
6 world, to keep this open? Would you be in
7 agreement to keep it open for the purposes that
8 it was needed for?
9 SENATOR SPANO: For the purposes
10 of a psychiatric center?
11 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes.
12 SENATOR SPANO: What we tried to
13 do -- you know, we have Chapter 322 of the Laws
14 of '91 that call for a comprehensive closure
15 plan. There were a number of different
16 facilities in the Buffalo Psychiatric Center
17 catchment area that were open and improved, at
18 the Orleans General Hospital, WCA of Jamestown,
19 Lakeshore Hospital, and some others, that
20 handled the overflow or handled the people who
21 were being discharged from Gowanda. So it
22 doesn't make sense at this point at all for us
23 to try to keep that facility open serving people
4895
1 who suffer from a psychiatric disorder.
2 So no, Senator, I could not in
3 good faith suggest that we keep that facility
4 open now, especially when they have already run
5 down the census and its expectation of closing
6 it.
7 SENATOR GALIBER: The money, if
8 the top administrative persons -- I understand
9 that a lot of this is heavy with administrative
10 cost, that million dollars to service some
11 twelve or fifteen patients. That money, if and
12 when Gowanda is in fact closed, will that money
13 go into any area of your concern, which would be
14 community based centers, at all?
15 SENATOR SPANO: As a part of the
16 budget negotiations, there was no money at all
17 put into the mental health budget to operate
18 Gowanda in the future. So the $1 million that
19 they would have to spend to keep Gowanda open if
20 we failed to enact this bill would have to come
21 out of existing funds of the Office of Mental
22 Health, because we didn't put any additional
23 money in there at all.
4896
1 There is no mechanism at this
2 point for us to take or capture that million
3 dollars that is going to be spent at Gowanda and
4 reinvest it into the community, but I would
5 expect that before we end this session, Senator,
6 we will have a bill to that effect.
7 SENATOR GALIBER: Okay. One
8 other question.
9 At the present time, you said,
10 part of Gowanda that is a prison population now
11 or part of it is a -- does DOCS have any
12 responsibility for any part of Gowanda now?
13 SENATOR SPANO: The Collins
14 Correctional Facility is currently collocated on
15 that site, yes, and Department of Corrections
16 has the responsibility for maintenance at that
17 site.
18 SENATOR GALIBER: Would the
19 Senator yield for another question?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN: Will
21 the Senator yield?
22 SENATOR SPANO: Sure.
23 SENATOR GALIBER: Do you know
4897
1 what the prison population is there at the
2 present time?
3 SENATOR SPANO: I really don't
4 know.
5 SENATOR GALIBER: Does anybody
6 who might find it in their new Senatorial
7 District know?
8 SENATOR SPANO: There are 1130
9 inmates at Collins, Senator.
10 SENATOR GALIBER: How many?
11 SENATOR SPANO: 1130.
12 SENATOR GALIBER: 1130. Thank
13 you, Senator.
14 On the bill, Mr. President.
15 Mr. President, I know of Senator
16 Spano's deep concern in this particular area, so
17 at first blush I was concerned about the closing
18 of any of these centers as he was.
19 The next issue -- I have no
20 objection, of course, to the bill. It just
21 gives an opportunity for me to again speak on
22 the possibility, the horrendous possibilities on
23 the one hand of opening up an additional prison.
4898
1 We have been building prisons in
2 this state for so many, many years, and there
3 has been almost a screeching halt to it, an
4 outcry, a hue and outcry, if you will, from the
5 public that we do not need any more prisons.
6 Then on the other side we find
7 that we still have prison overcrowdedness, and
8 we have tried on this side of the aisle with
9 some on your side of the aisle to say prison
10 overcrowdedness can be solved, if you will. We
11 need merely to look to alternatives to
12 incarceration.
13 When we introduce pieces of
14 legislation which would have that kind of impact
15 which would relieve the prisons, if you will, of
16 double bunking and all the horror stories that
17 we hear coming out of these prisons, the notion
18 is rejected, rejected by some over there and
19 some over here, because of some ten years of
20 getting tough on crime and that if there were in
21 fact any reversal at this point in time it might
22 very well be interpreted as being soft on crime,
23 and certainly that is not the case.
4899
1 So here we are at a point in time
2 when we have a situation where we have double
3 bunking, and certainly they are busting out at
4 the seams in our correctional institutions, but
5 we can resolve this another way, because those
6 of us -- by merely passing some pieces of
7 legislation, some of the programs that have come
8 up from the second floor, some that have come
9 from the Codes Committee, some that are in
10 various committees right now. All we need is a
11 few votes and we can relieve that prison
12 population.
13 The danger, Mr. President, as I
14 see it, and most of us do, when we build these
15 prisons they become, of course, an economic
16 development plan for that particular area, and
17 we understand that, and we accept it. But, as
18 such, once we build them, we have to fill them
19 up. And when we start filling them up, we start
20 doing crazy things, mandating more sentences,
21 enhancing, if you will, which is the same thing,
22 to fill those prisons up.
23 I say that we do not need any
4900
1 more prisons. I fear, very frankly -- and I say
2 fear and mean just that -- fear that when this
3 hospital is closed that so many inmates at the
4 present time as part of that development that we
5 will quickly see the monies that should be
6 directed to community centers and treatment
7 centers that you and I both want to see in
8 neighborhoods where folks, who are part of that
9 system unfortunately, can be closer to home in
10 smaller areas, those dollars and cents will not
11 be used, Senator, for that purpose.
12 In my best judgment, it will be
13 used to build some more prisons and create some
14 more economic development, and we do not need -
15 we need the economic development, but we do not
16 need any more prisons.
17 And I'm not sure how the new
18 Senator who has gotten that reapportionment
19 feels about whether we should or should not
20 have, or does he have -
21 Would Senator Volker yield?
22 SENATOR VOLKER: You want me to
23 yield?
4901
1 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes, as awkward
2 as this is to put you in this, I know that you
3 are prepared, of course.
4 Do you, Senator Volker, have any
5 indication that when Gowanda closes that it will
6 then be converted into a prison or -
7 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, first
8 -- I'm sorry.
9 SENATOR GALIBER: It's okay.
10 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, first
11 of all, as was said, there is a collocation
12 here. There is also a collocation of districts
13 here. The Gowanda Psychiatric Center actually
14 straddles Senator Present's and my district.
15 There is some question, in fact,
16 as to how much or part of the present building
17 site that we're talking about, in other words
18 the Gowanda Psychiatric Center, whether it's in
19 Senator Present's district or mine. It sort of
20 straddles the district. Collins Correctional is
21 definitely now in my district, but that's
22 adjacent to the present building that you are
23 talking about.
4902
1 Senator, the problem here is -
2 there's a multitude of problems. First of all,
3 if this bill passes, very honestly, unless the
4 Assembly's attitude changes nothing is going to
5 happen, because the Assembly got itself all
6 wound up on the issue of correctional facilities
7 some time ago when we were still trying to
8 negotiate a way out of the problem that we're in
9 in both probation and in overcrowding in the
10 prison system and said that they would agree to
11 close the Gowanda Psychiatric Center unless a
12 rider were put on that said it could not be a
13 correction facility.
14 Well, the Senate's position and
15 the Governor's position, frankly, as far as I
16 know is that's not the way to solve this
17 problem.
18 So the answer I guess is that
19 assuming that this bill the way it is now became
20 law and the Gowanda Psychiatric Center were
21 closed down, nothing as a direct result would
22 happen from there, that it would not become a
23 correction facility. Nothing would happen
4903
1 unless there were some further action.
2 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator yield
3 for one other question?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PADAVAN:
5 Senator yield?
6 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes, I will,
7 Senator.
8 SENATOR GALIBER: SINCE it's a
9 straddled district AND you share this with a
10 colleague of yours and mine -
11 SENATOR VOLKER: Right.
12 SENATOR GALIBER: -- would you be
13 in favor of Gowanda becoming a correctional
14 institution?
15 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, the
16 situation we have in the prison system is nearly
17 critical. We have at the present time
18 increasing numbers of double bunking inmates,
19 and the result of that is a very dangerous
20 situation within the system.
21 We also happen to have something
22 like 6500 inmates who were on work release in a
23 myriad of programs that we have been trying over
4904
1 the past few years to provide some diversion.
2 Senator, one of my problems with some of the
3 things that had been said by some of the
4 Assembly people about how we can solve this
5 prison problem is that we're not asking for
6 building of new prisons, although let me point
7 out that there was agreement a number of years
8 ago -- and I can list the prisons -- for five
9 new prisons which we have never built. Gowanda,
10 by the way, was not one of those.
11 There was an agreement which has
12 never been implemented, for various reasons,
13 which would have relieved the prison
14 overcrowding, would have allowed us to do a lot
15 of additional programming, by the way, Senator,
16 and, then, at the same time try to do some
17 diversion programs some of which, Senator, have
18 turned out to be semi-fiascos.
19 The problems with some of those
20 diversion programs is they haven't worked, for
21 various reasons, and my problem with the issue
22 of some of these programs being used this year
23 is they are very speculative.
4905
1 The reason Gowanda seems so
2 attractive at this time is simply because it
3 would provide an avenue, a place. We don't need
4 to build a prison. It's there. A facility is
5 about to be shut down. The people are being
6 excessed. By the way, it was done grudgingly,
7 Senator Masiello, Senator Present, myself, a
8 number of us, along with Senator Spano, tried to
9 work out -- Senator Stachowski -- I'm sorry,
10 Senator. I'm sorry -- tried to work out this
11 issue with Mental Hygiene. We did not succeed
12 very well for a long time, and that's why it's
13 been dragged out. They are the real reason we
14 are still trying to work this issue out,
15 mainly.
16 But the problem here is, Senator,
17 the reason that Tom Coughlin believes that
18 Mental Hygiene should be converted to a
19 correctional facility, the reason the Governor
20 believes it, and the reason that we have acceded
21 to that given the nature of the situation is it
22 would provide an immediate ability to bring down
23 the numbers of people in our system and avoid
4906
1 some of the problems.
2 At the same time, Senator, we're
3 more than willing to talk about and have been
4 willing to talk about diversion programs, not
5 let-them-out programs, not second felony
6 offender that says, "Well, these are not
7 non-violent inmates even though they may have
8 eight or nine felonies behind them for violent
9 crimes, but they're really not violent people."
10 We can't accept that, Senator, and that is a big
11 part of our problem.
12 So the answer, Senator, is I wish
13 there were another way. On the other hand, I
14 think if the Assembly is going to deal with its
15 responsibility, then it seems to me they will
16 either have to agree to build a prison or they
17 will have to agree, logically, to allow a place
18 like Gowanda to become a correctional facility.
19 SENATOR GALIBER: Great answer.
20 Mr. President, on the bill.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
22 bill.
23 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator Volker,
4907
1 as usual when we debate bills, a good debater
2 can take either side of the issue and do it
3 effectively. Senator Volker has been consistent
4 through the years in some instances dramatizing,
5 if you will, the conditions in our prisons.
6 But, Senator, there are alternatives, and there
7 are very, very easy alternatives.
8 We have pieces of legislation for
9 merit good time, good time off the minimum,
10 which doesn't cut them loose, Senator. It
11 doesn't let them out of jail. Good time off the
12 minimum really puts them before the system
13 earlier.
14 We also have in our prisons not
15 those violent criminals that you make mention.
16 They are there, and I dare say that I've often
17 said and mean it sincerely that there are some
18 of the crimes that are committed by some of
19 those persons incarcerated should never, never
20 see the light of day, and I believe that.
21 But I'm not talking about those
22 extreme cases. I'm talking about the cases that
23 there are some folks in under the Rockefeller
4908
1 laws, A-1, A-2, A-3 categories where we have to
2 take another look, if you will.
3 Mr. President, I can't hear
4 myself, even.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Let's
6 have some order in the house, please.
7 SENATOR GALIBER: The programs in
8 the A-1, A-2 category that I mentioned before,
9 Senator, you're aware and I think you supported
10 those of us who said, "Listen, Governor
11 Rockefeller, you've gone too far." We reviewed
12 the A-2 and A-3 categories, and there was a
13 presumption that the A-1 categories were the big
14 timers and, therefore, we reviewed them, let
15 some of them out and some of them are still
16 there in those categories.
17 So we ask for legislation which
18 would say those persons as we review the cases,
19 not violent crimes -- in some instances never
20 been arrested before -- we have legislation
21 which suggests if we up the amount that there
22 may be a number of persons that could be let
23 out, keeping in mind that public safety -- and
4909
1 those of us who advocate alternatives, Senator
2 Volker, are primarily concerned. Sometimes you
3 don't believe us, not you personally, it's not
4 believed as we debate it that public safety
5 becomes paramount when we introduce this
6 legislation or a lot of it.
7 When they diverse the program as
8 you mentioned before, you mention the failures,
9 but there are successes built into it. When we
10 talk about the predicate felon category -- there
11 is a predicate felon category. If we give the
12 flexibility to the district attorneys or to the
13 judges, does it mean we're soft on crime? Does
14 it mean that we're letting the prison population
15 out? The answer is absolutely not.
16 Senator, I dare say that if
17 between the crime victims committee and your
18 committees there are enough pieces of
19 legislation to relieve the overcrowdedness in
20 our prison system without putting the public in
21 jeopardy keeping in mind public safety. We have
22 the laws there, and you know it as well as I do.
23 I respect your position. We
4910
1 respect each other's position, I would like to
2 think. But the fact of the matter is there is
3 an easier, safe way without spending additional
4 monies to relieve the congestion in our
5 prisons. Building more prisons, we can not
6 build ourselves by building prisons out of this
7 crisis that we have, can't do it. It's utterly
8 impossible.
9 So I'm in favor of this piece of
10 legislation and wanted the record to reflect my
11 deep concerns about looking at alternatives to
12 relieving the congestion in our prisons.
13 Listen to what the Commissioner
14 says. The Commissioner is in favor of giving
15 good time off the minimum. He is in favor of
16 it. If we give him the responsibility, we
17 should listen to him or get rid of him as a
18 Commissioner. He has a number of programs that
19 he favors. But when he comes to the legislative
20 branch of government and says, Legislative
21 Branch, I need some help. I want to relieve the
22 congestion in our prisons. Help me do that by
23 passing these pieces of legislation. And you
4911
1 can pass these without being branded, if you
2 will, soft on crime -- soft on crime which seems
3 to be the criteria. The harsher penalties, you
4 know it and I know it, if we look at the
5 statistics, all the penalties, all the
6 enhancements, all the mandated sentences, we
7 still find today the same problem that we had
8 before. We have not deterred any crime, and
9 certainly you and I understand that should be
10 and is the end of criminal justice.
11 So I wanted it just reflected for
12 the record. I know there is an alternative.
13 All we need to do is take the bull by the horns,
14 so to speak, and look at those alternatives to
15 relieve the congestion in our prisons.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Stachowski.
18 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Will Senator
19 Spano yield to a question?
20 SENATOR SPANO: Yes.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Spano, will you yield?
23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Senator, if
4912
1 this bill passes and eventually is signed, does
2 that mean then that OMB can no longer justify
3 having the director of Gowanda still on full
4 salary and the top five or ten positions that
5 they transferred over to Buffalo Psych' Center
6 and have those people there while they are
7 cutting hands-on service people?
8 When they need to do cuts in
9 their department, they cut like nurses, et
10 cetera, but still maintain those top level
11 employees from the Gowanda Psych' Center on the
12 payroll at the same salary as when Gowanda Psych
13 Center was fully operative and, even though
14 there's that little unit left, those people are
15 still there. Does this mean that they'll
16 finally be gone, or will they find another
17 reason to keep them at the same salary instead
18 of putting this money either into community
19 services or hands-on nursing type hirees?
20 SENATOR SPANO: As I said to
21 Senator Galiber, Senator, there is no
22 appropriation in the Mental Health budget for
23 any continuation of staff at the Gowanda
4913
1 Psychiatric Center. They will be maintaining
2 some presence in the town of Collins, but
3 whatever staff members they choose to bring over
4 to the staff of Buffalo Psychiatric Center that
5 would have to -- their salaries would have to be
6 taken out of the current appropriation for the
7 Buffalo Psychiatric Center.
8 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Could I ask
9 another question?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
11 Spano, will you yield for another question?
12 SENATOR SPANO: Sure.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He will
14 yield.
15 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I understand
16 that part, Senator, but as you know from the
17 hearings on the budget when we asked the
18 Commissioner that very question of whether those
19 people were on full salary at those levels, he
20 justified it by saying that although there was
21 not much service left, those people were still
22 necessary because Gowanda was technically still
23 open, which was very interesting, and I would
4914
1 believe that they would still find a way to keep
2 those people on.
3 And will we have any assurance
4 that they won't be doing that or that at least
5 they'll have the decency to give them different
6 titles?
7 SENATOR SPANO: I can only
8 express to you my opinion. My opinion
9 or my hope would be that the high level
10 positions that currently exist at Gowanda that
11 those positions would be eliminated, those are
12 administrative positions; that if it's no longer
13 going to operate as a psychiatric hospital that
14 they do not need a director, a full-time
15 director.
16 But as you full well know, we do
17 not dictate the policies of the Office of Mental
18 Health, and it will have to remain to be seen.
19 I will tell you, Senator, that we will closely
20 monitor the activities of the Office of Mental
21 Health in that area.
22 I know that you and the members
23 of the western New York delegation have been
4915
1 very sensitive to that issue and, frankly, very
2 helpful in the closure of this facility and
3 additional community programs. And as the
4 chairman of this committee, I will work closely
5 with you to make sure that if anything does
6 happen out there like that where we are seeing
7 direct care workers being eliminated from their
8 jobs while administrators are kept on, we'll
9 spring to action on your behalf.
10 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you
11 very much.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Volker.
14 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President,
15 very quickly. Let me just say I understand what
16 Senator Galiber is saying. I think that his
17 mention of the support of Tom Coughlin for some
18 of these programs is kind of interesting.
19 Tom Coughlin, Corrections
20 Commissioner, actually is the guy who proposed
21 that Gowanda be converted to a correction
22 facility. It was not the Senate that proposed
23 that. It was Tom Coughlin.
4916
1 I also point out something to my
2 colleagues, and we have been trying to point
3 this out to the Assembly. I happen to believe
4 that if this issue is not resolved, if the issue
5 of prison overcrowding is not resolved, that we
6 will be back here before very long for a special
7 session of the Legislature because my guess is
8 that the situation will only get worse.
9 And the sad part of the situation
10 is that we probably are only looking at a window
11 of about a year because with the tremendous drop
12 in arrests out of New York City that has
13 occurred over the last several years, almost
14 certainly the number of inmates in about a year
15 is going to begin to fall off a cliff, and we
16 should have some relaxation in our prison
17 system.
18 But the tragedy of it is that
19 some people in the Assembly have decided -- and
20 I think they really don't understand the prison
21 problem. The Senate has always been willing to
22 talk about real transition programs and real
23 programs to attempt to allow alternatives to
4917
1 incarceration. But we have to -- it's
2 absolutely imperative that we protect the public
3 safety, and we think that the best way to do
4 that is to make sure that not too many of these
5 inmates are allowed to run through these
6 programs and that we actually make sure that
7 there is capacity to take care of the inmates in
8 the facilities that we have.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
10 the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
14 the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 61.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 bill is passed.
19 Senator Present.
20 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
21 may we call up Calendar 1106.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1106.
23 The Secretary will read it.
4918
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 1106, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number
3 5869, an act to amend the Tax Law.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Ex
6 planation has been asked for, Senator Stafford.
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr.
8 President. Here in the Majority, Mr. President,
9 we're very pleased to submit for the
10 consideration of our body, and we plan passage,
11 really a program which is going to be economic
12 recovery. That's what it's all about.
13 Mr. President, in this state, we
14 have lost jobs seven and a half times more than
15 the average state. We simply have to do
16 something about our tax structure. I know if we
17 were an island and we didn't have to consider
18 other states and we weren't in competition, Mr.
19 President, we could maybe do as we would like
20 and live with some of the taxes which we are
21 going to remove.
22 I know, Mr. President, none of us
23 want to have people in need. None of us do not
4919
1 want to see education not supported, but I would
2 submit that unless we have the economy, unless
3 we have the business, unless we have the jobs to
4 support this state, and to support our programs,
5 we're going to continue in that direction of
6 losing jobs seven and a half times more than the
7 average for other states.
8 What does this bill do, Mr.
9 President? I will go down and briefly explain.
10 The surcharge and amnesty. We
11 reduce the current 15 percent corporate
12 surcharge to 12 1/2 percent for tax years
13 beginning in 1993 and create a three-month tax
14 amnesty period during the current fiscal year.
15 Mr. President, corporation after
16 corporation will be relieved by this 2-1/2
17 percent, corporations and businesses that can't
18 afford to pay what they are paying now. The
19 business simply won't support it.
20 And as far as amnesty is
21 concerned, I will submit, Mr. President -- and
22 we have suggested this in previous years, as you
23 know -- this program will be more than
4920
1 successful. Past amnesty programs have been.
2 Billions and billions of dollars in the state
3 and in the city, New York City, $40 billion.
4 Think of it, $40 billion. I would suggest that
5 we have shown and we'll be able to show what the
6 past programs have made available, and it is
7 most important in our opinion that we have this
8 amnesty.
9 People will pay. Frankly, we all
10 pay taxes. And I submit it's on anyone's mind
11 whether they be a business person or an
12 individual when they realize and they know that
13 they do owe, and people will come and pay.
14 1993, for New York City alone,
15 legal activity, $39 billion, $40 billion not
16 taxed. Not taxed. That's a lot of money. And
17 in the United States -- United States -- just to
18 point out how large it is, it is $641 billion.
19 I believe that's more than half a trillion.
20 When I came here -- just to bore
21 you a bit. When I came here -- doesn't make any
22 difference how long ago but when I did, the
23 budget was $4.4 billion. $4.4 billion. And
4921
1 when it got to 10 we thought that's the ends of
2 the world. We've seen how it has grown.
3 But think of the tax we'd have on
4 that $39 billion, and much of it would come in.
5 I submit it just does not make sense not to have
6 a three-month program.
7 Another proposal in the
8 legislation, the BTU and clean air exemption.
9 It exempts businesses and individuals from
10 increases to utilities' gross receipts tax which
11 would result from the proposed federal BTU tax
12 or the Clean Air Act. In other words, it's
13 uncoupled from the federal legislation. And
14 that would be $75 million we suggest, and we're
15 talking about the amnesty program for '93-94
16 saving $230 million.
17 A 5 percent hotel reduction. I
18 live in a tourist area. I realize the concerns
19 for the hotel and motel tax, and it's most, most
20 -- well, let me put it this way. For all of us
21 who have these, including the City, all of us
22 who have hotels and motels, this has been a real
23 concern.
4922
1 In this program, we would suggest
2 the state hotel tax rate is cut in half, and the
3 corresponding reduction is provided for in the
4 New York City hotel tax to promote tourism. In
5 other words, a 5 percent reduction, which I
6 think will be helpful. And that's $70 million.
7 Also, we would suggest operating
8 losses. Currently, net operating losses for
9 corporations in New York cannot be taken against
10 minimum taxes as they can in other states and
11 for federal purposes. This provision will aid
12 companies which suffered losses during the
13 recession to recover faster and reinvest in jobs
14 and equipment. And any of your friends or
15 professionals who have been hit by this
16 recession knows how important and how helpful
17 this will be. That's 60 million.
18 Next is the PBT and commercial
19 heat exemption. This provision expands current
20 residential heating exemptions to cover all
21 commercial heating purposes including hospitals
22 and not-for-profits. How many of you have been
23 contacted by your hospitals or not-for-profit
4923
1 organizations? And think, in effect, of a gross
2 receipts tax which is almost impossible in many
3 cases. That would be $50 million.
4 Also, Mr. President, the highway
5 use tax Thruway exemption. This restores a
6 previous exemption from highway use tax for
7 miles traveled on the Thruway. We feel we're
8 losing a great deal of traffic, and this would
9 save us -- or we would have $10 million by
10 having more truck activity here in the state.
11 Another provision, the taxpayer
12 bill of rights cost recovery and interest. The
13 state will have to pay interest if it fails to
14 send refunds on a more timely basis. In
15 addition, taxpayers would be authorized to
16 recover costs expended to adjudicate cases where
17 the Tax Department is found to have been
18 wrongfully interpreting the law.
19 And I would make one point here,
20 Mr. President. I don't mean to overdo this
21 because it wasn't long ago that I was standing
22 on the floor here defending our public servants,
23 and I will defend many, many people who work in
4924
1 the Tax Department, but we do have too many
2 instances where people come to us. And they
3 make the person who is paying who they are
4 trying to get the money from feel like
5 second-class citizens. And I think we should
6 make sure that this is not the case, and if the
7 Tax Department is wrong, let them pay the legal
8 fee. Maybe they will be a bit more careful, and
9 some who are just completely irresponsible and
10 don't treat people as they should, maybe we
11 should go even further.
12 The fuel tax refunds. It allows
13 a refund for the PBT on carriers rather than
14 just a credit, so you would get the cash. And
15 that would be 2 million.
16 Corporate filing fee. It would
17 reduce the $50 statements of filing fee enacted
18 in 1992 to $5, an amount sufficient to fund the
19 system for updating corporate addresses. And,
20 Mr. President, how many of us here in this body
21 have had friends of ours or ourselves have been
22 involved in the business community and realize
23 that the $50 statement is not that easy for
4925
1 many, many people; and that would save $1
2 million.
3 Bad debt credit, bad debt credit,
4 excuse me, allows a credit tax to pass through
5 but cannot be -- allows a credit for tax which
6 has been passed through but cannot be
7 collected.
8 PBT manufacturer's exemption:
9 Changes current entitlement to up-scale
10 exemption. The fact is, what this is, this is
11 very, very important to manufacturing because
12 the petroleum or the energy that goes into the
13 product you do not have to pay tax on because
14 that's part of the product, the sheet of paper,
15 and that would be very helpful to many of our
16 businesses.
17 The alcoholic beverage
18 enforcement, our industry is supporting measures
19 to increase enforcement of the alcoholic
20 beverage tax. The provisions are consistent
21 with cigarette and motor fuel taxes, and we
22 think this will be most helpful not only to the
23 people who are in business legally selling the
4926
1 product, but also provides more income.
2 Mr. President, I know that this
3 is not easy. It's very easy for all of us to
4 want to have services. How many of us, all of
5 us as Senators, we've got to have this for our
6 district, we've got to have this for our
7 district, but, Mr. President, I've learned -
8 and this is where I feel Senator Marino is right
9 and all those who are supporting this bill and
10 have their name on this bill -- that we have to
11 have an economy which is viable, which is
12 strong, which is growing, to produce the funds
13 in order for us to have this state and the state
14 services because, if we don't, if we don't,
15 well, we know what happens. We have zero.
16 So, I would suggest that this is
17 a good jump start for our economy, and I
18 certainly would urge its passage.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Gold.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator
23 Stafford yield to a question?
4927
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3 Stafford, will you yield?
4 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, first of
6 all, I want to understand the numbers. I
7 understand the philosophy, now I want to
8 understand the numbers.
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
10 SENATOR GOLD: You have a number
11 of provisions in this which are going to give
12 certain benefits, but as you know, we start out
13 with a balanced budget, so it's got to add up
14 somewhere. Now, do I understand that all of
15 these benefits will be funded by money that will
16 come in from the amnesty program?
17 SENATOR STAFFORD: No question
18 about it, the amnesty program, and there are a
19 couple other instances where fuel comes in, but
20 it's amnesty.
21 SENATOR GOLD: All right. And
22 would you just tell me how much you're
23 calculating the amnesty to be worth?
4928
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, you
2 know, it's interesting, and I will share that
3 figure with you, but when we come to these
4 numbers, I found out a number of years ago that
5 medicine is not an exact science, and I'll share
6 it with you, the people that make these
7 projections is not exact. It is what they
8 propose, what they think it will be. I know
9 there's a difference of opinion on how much it
10 will be. I myself looked at it. We've looked
11 at what past programs have supplied, and the
12 annual savings, so to speak, say the -- would be
13 actually -- want to make sure I give you the
14 exact right figure as long as I have it -- $230
15 million.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, all right.
17 So if the gentleman will yield to one more
18 question.
19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Sure.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, in other
21 words, your calculation, your best estimate -
22 and I understand that it could be a little bit
23 -- could be a little less, but the philosophy
4929
1 upon which your bill is based is that we will
2 have this 230 million and, therefore, we should
3 do something with it, and your bill says what to
4 do with it; is that correct?
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: I think that's
6 fair.
7 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Thank
8 you, sir.
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I
11 have served an amendment. I would offer the
12 amendment, waive its reading and ask an
13 opportunity to explain it.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
15 Amendment is here.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I
17 want to thank Senator Stafford for putting me in
18 this very comfortable position.
19 Senator Stafford, you say that we
20 have an opportunity under an amnesty program to
21 bring in $230 million. Well, 1986, we had an
22 amnesty, people figured 75 million. I
23 understand we took in 400 million. Based upon
4930
1 your figures of $40 billion, who knows what it
2 will bring in. So, Senator, I'm happy with your
3 number. The only difference between Republicans
4 and Democrats, Senator, is my amendment and your
5 amendment.
6 My amendment says, if we're going
7 to make this kind of money from amnesty, let's
8 give it to the people, the people we promised it
9 to. In 1987, we promised them certain cuts. My
10 amendment will give them those cuts.
11 The Republican philosophy is a
12 simple philosophy, and I appreciate the fact
13 that you make it simple because then we can
14 explain it to everyone. Your philosophy is
15 quote, what's good for General Bull Moose is
16 good for the U. S. A. If you got a dollar give
17 it to business and, believe me, it will trickle
18 down some day, and the guy that's starving some
19 day there will be money for him and food for
20 him.
21 We don't believe in that. Your
22 bill, Senator, worries about corporate franchise
23 taxes, and I do too, and you want to cut them.
4931
1 The first chance you get you talk about filing
2 reductions for statements and addresses of
3 directors. You worried about $50 to $5.
4 They have corporate activity; new
5 people are coming in, new blood, and you're
6 worried about $45. You got to worry about that?
7 I'm more worried about people who are trying to
8 put bread and milk on their table and, more
9 importantly than that, I'm worried about the
10 honor of this chamber.
11 I know, when I was concerned in
12 1987, as was Senator Bruno, that we give people
13 a tax reduction and that we bring these rates
14 down, I took it seriously. I assumed your side
15 took it seriously. I've read a lot of the
16 campaign literature.
17 I know that it wasn't the fault
18 of any Republican in this chamber that you were
19 forced to vote for $5 billion in new taxes over
20 a two-year period of time. I know you didn't
21 want to do it. Mario Cuomo, with that huge
22 strength of character in office, made you do it
23 or maybe it was Fred Ohrenstein, I don't know,
4932
1 but somebody made you do it because you
2 certainly wouldn't have voted for 5 billion
3 bucks on your own.
4 And now there's an opportunity
5 with an amnesty program that you say, Senator
6 Stafford, and I know you say it honestly because
7 you're an honest man, I believe it's worth $230
8 million, and the first ones you want to give it
9 to the corporations.
10 I want to give it to your
11 citizens and my citizens. I think we owe that to
12 them. We told them we would do it. We weren't
13 able to do it, so you people said. We weren't
14 able to do it. Not only that, you increased
15 their taxes. Here, if you are right, Senator
16 Stafford, and I got news for you, I don't want
17 to argue right now whether you're right or not.
18 You tell me there's $230 million; I'm content to
19 take your number, only I want to do something
20 differently, and I'm urging my colleagues to
21 vote for this amendment so that we have this
22 opportunity to keep faith with the general
23 public.
4933
1 I'm not concerned about business
2 running away from New York if we lower the
3 income tax rates. How many times have I heard
4 that argument? You know, I know that there's a
5 wall here and that when you talk we hear but
6 when we talk you don't seem to hear, but I
7 listen to what you say. I want to learn every
8 day of my life, and you people have told us more
9 than once that, if we can hold down income tax
10 rates, we will attract people to New York.
11 Well, I'm giving you the
12 opportunity to do it. I think holding down
13 income tax rates is more important than whether
14 or not some corporation files a statement for 50
15 bucks or five bucks. I think that's more
16 important, and I think, when we take a vote
17 today, there's going to be a lot of people on
18 this side of the aisle who are going to be proud
19 to cast their vote for my amendment which will
20 be keeping faith with the public.
21 Senator, I even think you may be
22 low on your figure. Maybe we can get the 300
23 million, 400 million, I don't know. Some people
4934
1 are going to be skeptical, because I know that
2 the last time we did this, I think there was
3 some statement that said to the public, you
4 better pay now or we'll never do it again.
5 Maybe we said that with a big wink, I don't
6 know, but the point is, Senator, if you want to
7 do it and the purpose of your doing it is to
8 give the money back to all of our people, those
9 people in your area, the people in Syracuse, the
10 people in Schenectady, the people in Nassau
11 County, then I'm willing to take a look at it.
12 Lastly, let me say something. My
13 distinguished colleague from Queens County,
14 Senator Padavan, put out a press release. I
15 think it was yesterday that I was delighted to
16 see. Press release that said that he is opposed
17 as am I, to the expansion of the United States
18 Tennis Association in Queens, one reason being
19 we don't see the lease and it looks like it's a
20 bad financial situation.
21 So, yes, there's an issue of use
22 of park land, but there's also an issue of what
23 are you getting, and where, and where is it
4935
1 coming from?
2 Senator, that's the problem with
3 your bill. I'm not going to argue with you
4 right now over the amnesty. If you think the
5 amnesty can raise that money and we could give
6 it back to the taxpayers, I would seriously
7 consider the amnesty. If you're talking about
8 amnesty because all you're going to do is give
9 some favored packages around that -- to some of
10 the the big corporations, then that affects the
11 issue as to whether or not this is the right
12 time for amnesty and whether we go for it.
13 So having said that, I would
14 seriously hope that we can pass this amendment,
15 have the bill back in a couple days and very
16 proudly on a bipartisan basis, announce that we
17 are keeping faith and giving the taxpayer cut.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
19 Stafford.
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
21 very briefly, I would just suggest that I
22 believe this would take about $700 million if we
23 were -
4936
1 SENATOR GOLD: Is that a
2 question?
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: It's not a
4 question.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Not a
6 question.
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: But I'll ask
8 you. Go ahead.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, my
10 amendment would take care of half the year
11 period and brings us down to about 300 million,
12 and I think having talked to my experts, the
13 difference between my 230 million and your 300
14 million is just as sound, I think it's based on
15 the same sand -- I mean the same concrete that
16 you built on.
17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, both our
18 gall is divided into two parts.
19 SENATOR GOLD: I think so.
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would
21 suggest this, that, you know, the business
22 community or the business operation in this
23 state, if you want to say it's a locomotive and
4937
1 it's the engines that keep that locomotive
2 running, and those engines are the businesses
3 and, you know, I really think we do have a
4 difference. $100, five to $50, that doesn't
5 sound like any money at all, but for many, many
6 people it is. We would be more than happy, be
7 more than happy to see reductions in some other
8 taxes.
9 But this today is to get a jump
10 start to get the businesses running to make it
11 possible to do business in New York State, to
12 have this state business-friendly. We think it's
13 many, many steps in the right direction. So, of
14 course, I would ask that the amendment be
15 defeated.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
17 amendment, all in favor say aye.
18 (Response of "Aye.")
19 Those opposed nay.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote in the
21 affirmative.
22 SENATOR PRESENT: Party vote in
23 the negative.
4938
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
2 the roll on a party vote.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays
5 35. Party vote.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
7 Halperin.
8 SENATOR HALPERIN: Yes, Mr.
9 President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
11 amendment is defeated.
12 SENATOR HALPERIN: Mr. President,
13 there are two amendments at the desk that I have
14 submitted.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We have
16 those amendments, Senator Halperin. Go ahead.
17 SENATOR HALPERIN: I waive their
18 reading and will explain them.
19 The first amendment, Mr.
20 President, would implement on the one hand the
21 portion of the legislation that is before us on
22 the floor which is the petroleum business tax
23 elimination.
4939
1 The second portion of the
2 amendment does something different than what is
3 proposed in your legislation, Senator Stafford,
4 and let me state, as I know Senator Gold alluded
5 to, that there's some very real questions about
6 how much this amnesty proposal of yours will
7 generate, and I intend to deal with that issue
8 after these amendments are dealt with and when
9 we talk about this bill.
10 However, for the purpose of this
11 amendment, I will accept the fact that the
12 amnesty might generate something and that it
13 would be enough at least to cover the cost of
14 these amendments which total only $50 million
15 and not the number that you come up with, which
16 I personally believe is highly unrealistic.
17 The second portion of this
18 amendment, and what I'm suggesting we do, is to
19 reduce the alternative minimum tax from five
20 percent to three percent effective this year and
21 the amendment would -- which was originally
22 encompassed in legislation we passed in 1987,
23 recognizes a very serious problem, but as we did
4940
1 with so many other proposals of phasing out or
2 lowering taxes, we delayed that, and so we now
3 have businesses that are struggling to survive
4 in this economy. We know how difficult it is.
5 We know how they're fighting on a day-to-day
6 basis to remain alive; and yet our tax policy
7 taxes them not on their profits but rather on an
8 alternative minimum base, which is simply a way
9 of getting at their money without looking at
10 whether or not they're coming out ahead at the
11 end of the year.
12 We are, in fact, destroying
13 businesses when we impose this tax upon them,
14 because by definition the tax is imposed only
15 upon businesses that are not making profits.
16 Now, some of those businesses
17 may, in fact, eventually show a profit and
18 they're going through a phase now that they are
19 benefiting from certain deductions that are
20 available to them, but others and many others of
21 those businesses are truly on the brink of going
22 under, and this tax can push them under.
23 So all that I'm suggesting is
4941
1 that we give them a modicum of relief. I'm not
2 even suggesting that we eliminate the
3 alternative minimum tax, but simply that we
4 reduce it from five percent to three percent.
5 I offer this amendment and hope
6 that it passes.
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Question.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We have
9 both. Do you want to call up both -- both
10 amendments, Senator Halperin?
11 SENATOR HALPERIN: I'd like to do
12 them separately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: O.K. On
14 the amendment, party vote?
15 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote, may be
16 an exception.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Party
18 vote with exceptions?
19 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on, please.
20 Hold on.
21 Yeah, party vote.
22 SENATOR PRESENT: Party vote in
23 the negative.
4942
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
2 the roll on a party vote.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 26, nays 35,
5 party vote.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 amendment is defeated.
8 Did you want to speak, Senator
9 Daly?
10 SENATOR HALPERIN: Mr. President,
11 I have another amendment.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Halperin has another amendment.
14 SENATOR HALPERIN: Nothing stops
15 me.
16 The second amendment, Mr.
17 President, would simply implement legislation
18 which has been introduced in this house by
19 Senators Sheffer, DeFrancisco, Farley, Hannon,
20 Holland, Kuhl, Larkin, LaValle, Levy, Marchi,
21 Nozzolio, Padavan, Pataki, Seward and Trunzo,
22 which would phase out the hotel tax which is
23 imposed on rooms which are priced at more than
4943
1 $100 per night, phase it out so that by -- on
2 April 1st of 1994, it would go from five percent
3 down to three percent.
4 On April 1st of 1995, it would go
5 down from three percent to one percent, and on
6 April 1st of 1996, it would be totally phased
7 out.
8 Now, if you want to talk about
9 killing the goose that laid the golden egg, we
10 certainly did that when we passed this hotel
11 tax. Since the inception of the tax in 1990, the
12 hotel industry has reported a loss of $255.9
13 million in hotel room revenues in New York City
14 alone. The reduction elsewhere in the state for
15 those hotels priced at $100 or more is about 7
16 percent of the New York City impact in total.
17 I note that this loss can be
18 partly attributed to the national recession and
19 the decline in tourism business activity, but
20 that according to testimony which we heard, most
21 of this is due to this -- to the total impact of
22 the hotel taxes, and in New York City that
23 impact is 22 percent, a 22 percent tax when you
4944
1 add on the state tax and the various local
2 taxes. That is just killing -- killing the
3 industry in New York City.
4 Based upon hotel industry
5 statements cited above, state and local
6 governments in 1992 lost approximately $158.2
7 million in other taxes, all in order to collect
8 $63.8 million from the hotel tax.
9 Now, that's just simply
10 ridiculous. The total net loss for New York
11 State amounted to $94.4 million in 1992 and will
12 increase to $99.1 million by 1996 if the tax
13 remains intact.
14 From the tax's inception until
15 1996, New York State and its local governments
16 will lose close to a billion dollars in other
17 taxes in order to collect less than a half a
18 billion dollars from the five percent hotel
19 tax. Therefore, the projected tax loss from
20 other sources and from the tax's inception to
21 1996 would be just about a half a billion
22 dollars.
23 Now, as I said, this makes no
4945
1 sense. Many parts of this state, New York City
2 and many other areas of the state, that rely
3 upon the recreation industry, skiing industry,
4 have tourist attractions are being clobbered by
5 this tax. They are forced either to try to keep
6 their hotel rates below $100 a night, which also
7 means that they can't realize the amount of
8 profit that they would ordinarily anticipate, or
9 by raising it over $100, and inviting the
10 application of this tax, they simply become
11 non-competitive with other areas in this
12 country; and at a time when our economy is
13 hurting so very much, this just doesn't make any
14 sense.
15 So I am strongly suggesting that
16 we adopt this proposal. I know that there's a
17 hotel tax proposal in the omnibus bill that
18 you're presenting, but I point out very simply
19 that this is the bill that the Assembly has
20 indicated that it will pass. This is the bill
21 that I believe 16 of your members support and
22 that I know many of the members on this side of
23 the aisle support, if not all the members on
4946
1 this side of the aisle, and I think that in
2 order to bring about immediately relief -
3 immediate relief to help lift the boycott that's
4 been imposed by the convention industry on the
5 city of New York, that we should move forward
6 with legislation that we know will pass and
7 which will also, by the way, provide greater
8 relief because whereas your proposal stops at
9 two and a half percent, our proposal phases down
10 all the way to zero percent and does so at a
11 time when many conventions are now planning. We
12 all know that these conventions do not pick -
13 decide overnight that they want to hold a
14 convention somewhere. They often plan two or
15 three years ahead. If they see that we are
16 serious about reducing this tax, then they will
17 begin to plan their conventions in New York,
18 something that all too many conventions are not
19 now doing.
20 So I urge the immediate passage
21 of this legislation, and we know it will pass in
22 the Assembly, and I believe the Governor will
23 sign it into law, and then we can begin to
4947
1 rebuild the tourism industry in this state.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3 Markowitz.
4 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Thank you
5 very much.
6 First off, Senator Halperin, I
7 want to commend you for your sensitivity to this
8 important issue, your concern about the economy
9 of New York City, something you've always
10 exhibited all the years of public service, and
11 the residents of New York City are grateful for
12 your continuing efforts on their behalf.
13 I had a question and that is, you
14 mentioned a number of Republicans on that bill,
15 am I right? May I ask you a question?
16 SENATOR HALPERIN: Yes.
17 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: There were a
18 number of Republican sponsors on a bill very,
19 very similar to this. What -- what would be
20 your opinion on all of our colleagues if they
21 voted against your amendments, what would one -
22 what conclusion could we draw, in your opinion,
23 if they voted against this legislation, this
4948
1 amendment, that is?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
3 Halperin, will you yield to that question from
4 Senator Markowitz?
5 SENATOR HALPERIN: Well, I -- I
6 don't know. I guess someone might consider that
7 they weren't -- they're not serious about the
8 bill.
9 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
11 Daly, why do you rise?
12 SENATOR DALY: Would I be out of
13 order?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: No, not
15 at all.
16 SENATOR DALY: I'd like to answer
17 that question.
18 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Senator, I'm
19 not yielding.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Markowitz will not yield to your question.
22 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: On the
23 amendment. You'll have all the time you need to
4949
1 go into his further explanation, I'm sure.
2 The -- bill is very important,
3 this amendment, to the hotel industry and, you
4 know, it's not just about conventions. It's
5 about restaurants; it's about retail stores.
6 It's about everything else that makes New York
7 City New York, and it's important to the state
8 of New York especially in terms of revenues that
9 this state so desperately needs for all of the
10 good work we have done and we hope to do in the
11 future.
12 This is a tax that we voted on
13 and the Legislature, just like any other
14 institution, business, corporation or any other
15 facet of life, occasionally makes mistakes. We
16 make less mistakes perhaps than most other
17 groups, but when we make a mistake sometimes
18 it's a big one. And on this issue there's no
19 question that we have hurt our hotel industry
20 and I am very hopeful as I look around the
21 chamber to our respected colleagues, all of whom
22 or many of whom have put their name to a very
23 similar piece of legislation, that this
4950
1 particular amendment really has the opportunity
2 to pass the New York State Assembly and can
3 become law, can become law this session, and I
4 hope that you will rise to the occasion and vote
5 with us on this particular amendment, and I'm
6 confident -- am I right, Senator? I'm confident
7 -- I'm looking at Senator Present; he's got a
8 smile on his face, and he's going to be the
9 first one to vote in the affirmative for Senator
10 Halperin's foresight and superb amendment for
11 the benefit of New York City.
12 Thank you.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Dollinger.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll pass and
16 talk on the main bill.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
18 amendment.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Party vote.
20 SENATOR PRESENT: Party vote in
21 the negative.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
23 the roll on a party vote with exceptions.
4951
1 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 25, nays 36,
3 party vote with exception.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
5 amendment is not accepted.
6 Senator Leichter, why do you -
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
8 President, on the bill. Is there another
9 amendment?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I have
11 a list here on the bill, and Senator Daly was
12 the first one, and I'll make you the second
13 one.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Then
16 we'll get Senator Halperin and Senator
17 Dollinger.
18 Senator Daly, you have the
19 floor.
20 SENATOR DALY: Thank you, Mr.
21 President.
22 Let me answer the question if I
23 can, why would my colleagues on this side, if I
4952
1 can be presumptuous enough to answer, why they
2 would not only co-sponsor the bill that you
3 mentioned, but today support this bill is
4 because, you know, every -- that bill is an
5 excellent bill.
6 I agree, Mr. President, that bill
7 is a good bill. This is a better bill. It's
8 the better bill, and if my colleagues on the
9 other side would look, they would see those same
10 names that appear on the bill that Senator
11 Halperin was -- is discussing, on this bill and,
12 you know, Mr. President, I always wonder why do
13 we always seem to forget where it all begins?
14 And the purpose of this bill today and this move
15 today, in my opinion, is most appropriate, most
16 fitting and very timely.
17 Where does it all begin? Senator
18 Gold says he wants to help all the people. We,
19 with this legislation, want to help the people
20 who need the help the most, the unemployed.
21 That's the major thrust of this bill, Mr.
22 President, is to provide more job opportunities
23 in New York State and, my God, how timely it
4953
1 is. Haven't we read in the paper where, in this
2 recession we've gone through, New York State
3 lost more jobs, more jobs by far, than any other
4 state. Doesn't that tell us something? Doesn't
5 that tell us where our priorities should be,
6 that our priorities should be right there,
7 protecting that goose that lays the golden egg?
8 I would submit, Mr. President,
9 that there's not one dollar generated in this
10 state unless it comes from the private sector.
11 Other sectors don't generate any money. We
12 spend it. What is more important to a citizen
13 in this state than the opportunity to make a
14 good living and raise his family? This bill will
15 help us do that. This bill is not only going to
16 help industry in the monetary sense.
17 Symbolically, it's going to
18 indicate that New York State realizes -
19 realizes what's most important at this time.
20 And I would again repeat, New York State has
21 lost more jobs than any other state. We have to
22 do something about it. How do we stop it? How
23 do we try to change New York's climate so that
4954
1 we encourage business and industry to expand in
2 this state and to build?
3 The bill before you, my
4 colleagues, is the best way of doing it. We
5 have a limited amount of money that we can gain
6 through the amnesty. We want to use that money
7 to provide more job opportunities in this state,
8 and I am a strong supporter of reducing the
9 property -- the personal income tax when we
10 can. I think that this reduction is more
11 important right now, because this bill again,
12 through this bill, we're trying to help those
13 people who need help right now, and I seem to
14 believe and I'm sure you will agree, that those
15 people who are out on the streets looking for
16 jobs are the people we should apply ourselves
17 to, and we do with this legislation.
18 I also submit that this
19 legislation does reduce the hotel tax and
20 rightly so, another good thing, but again let's
21 just look at the major purpose of this bill;
22 that is to improve the business climate so that
23 there are more job opportunities for the people
4955
1 who need those jobs, and I personally can't
2 think of anything more important that we can do
3 for the people of the state than provide those
4 additional job opportunities.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Halperin, then Leichter. I'm sorry, that's the
7 order I put them down in, and then Senator
8 Dollinger.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'll yield to
10 my friend.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You all
12 stand up at the same time, and I try to grab the
13 -
14 SENATOR HALPERIN: I'm sure,
15 Senator Leichter -- I thank you for permitting
16 me to speak now. I'm certain that, given your
17 depth of knowledge and profound understanding of
18 the issue, that there's no way that I will even
19 be able to cover a fraction of what you will
20 cover when you speak. So -
21 I'd like to address myself to
22 this amnesty issue. Certainly I'd love to
23 reduce all the taxes that you are suggesting to
4956
1 be reduced in your bill, but I have to remind
2 you of something that may be a little
3 disturbing. We've already passed the budget.
4 We've already decided how many revenues or how
5 much revenue we can expect this year and how
6 much we think we're going to have to spend, and
7 what this really is, is coming back after the
8 fact and now, through the guise of saying we're
9 going to be getting some money that I don't
10 think we're going to get, that we're now going
11 to be able to do some things that may have or
12 may not have been done as part of an overall
13 budget process.
14 So you're trying to renegotiate
15 the budget, but I don't think you really have a
16 basis for doing it without throwing the budget
17 completely out of kilter. So my mind, it's no
18 way that this amnesty would produce the $230
19 million that you want to spend. It just won't
20 happen.
21 If we look, if we go back and we
22 compare this situation this year with what we
23 did in 1986, we'll find many significant
4957
1 differences. Back in 1986 there was -- and, by
2 the way, remember then we did it as part of the
3 budget -- we had an appropriation in the budget
4 to publicize the amnesty program. If we had not
5 publicized the amnesty program, it simply
6 wouldn't have worked. There is no such
7 appropriation in your bill, and I don't think
8 that assuming that -- I'm going to get to some
9 other weaknesses -- assuming there's any chance
10 of it working, it's not going to work if we
11 don't publicize it. There is no provision, once
12 again, for publicizing it. Also back in 1986,
13 part of the advertising, part of the hype of the
14 amnesty program, was that "the laws are getting
15 tougher. If you don't settle up now, you're
16 going to suffer."
17 Now, one of two things have
18 happened: Either we convince people about that
19 and so that your estimates of what amnesty will
20 produce are completely off because people are so
21 convinced that the laws are tougher, that they
22 are, in fact, paying their taxes, or they're
23 really not very frightened about the toughness
4958
1 of the laws, so we had better come up with a new
2 threat which you're simply not coming up with
3 because that threat, coupled with the ability to
4 promote it to the public, is what caused people
5 and corporations to come in and pay their
6 taxes. It wasn't their good will. These people
7 were not paying their taxes, and that's how we
8 convinced them to do it.
9 Also, unlike the 1986 bill, you
10 are including corporate giants in this amnesty
11 program. First of all, these are people that
12 should be paying, everyone should be paying
13 their taxes, they certainly should, but the Tax
14 Department already heavily audits these
15 corporations. It is highly unlikely that you're
16 going to be able to generate the kinds of monies
17 that you expect simply by including these big
18 corporations, because they're already the focal
19 point of tremendous efforts by our Tax
20 Department, and if they're not -- if that's
21 inadequate, if that's what your view is, then
22 you should have put more money into the state
23 Department of Taxation and Finance to go after
4959
1 these corporations because they're relatively
2 easy targets to get to. You don't need an
3 amnesty to reward Daddy Warbucks for not paying
4 his taxes all these years.
5 Also, let's -- so for those
6 reasons, I just don't think that their amnesty
7 is going to produce the dollars that you say
8 they're going to produce. But I want to make
9 another point. Even if it were to be
10 successful, I think it's the wrong thing to do.
11 Back in 1986, we said that this was once-in-a
12 lifetime -- a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to
13 come in and settle up and that from here on in,
14 the state of New York is not going to play games
15 with tax cheats, but here we go again.
16 I mean I hate to think that my
17 lifetime would be as short as a period from 1986
18 until now. Thank God it hasn't been that
19 short. I don't know what "once in a lifetime"
20 means, but certainly not eight years. That is
21 -- that's not a lifetime and yet here we go
22 again trying to reward people who cheated on
23 their taxes.
4960
1 We come into this chamber with
2 all kinds of bills, and I vote for them, to
3 toughen up on the laws for people who commit
4 this kind of crime and that kind of crime, and
5 now what we're doing is we're letting people off
6 the hook and we're letting people off the hook
7 the way this bill is drafted who are not going
8 to have to pay their taxes, some of them in a
9 very short period of time because we're letting
10 people off the hook who have already been
11 identified as tax cheats, who have already been
12 audited, who have already been identified as and
13 who already are in the process and will soon
14 have to pay not only their taxes and their
15 interest, as this bill provides, but penalties,
16 so that it would be cutting off the opportunity
17 to gain the money that will be coming in on the
18 penalties, and I think we're just going to be
19 demoralizing the Tax Department and undermining
20 our credibility when we say we want to get tough
21 with tax cheats.
22 So for all of these reasons, I
23 cannot go along with this amnesty. This amnesty
4961
1 is based on amnesia. We simply don't remember
2 what we did a few years ago and how we made
3 promises, and I really believe that what we're
4 -- what you're doing here by presenting this
5 bill with the guise of this amnesty that simply
6 won't work is, as usual, political posturing,
7 but generally when you are accepting a political
8 posture, you should be able to stand up tall.
9 This political posturing is more in the nature
10 of a hunchback.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
12 DeFrancisco, why do you rise?
13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Will
14 Senator Halperin yield for a moment?
15 SENATOR HALPERIN: In just a
16 moment. I'm just finishing up with my
17 allusions, Richard III.
18 So if you want to politically
19 posture, do something that you can stand up
20 straight with. Don't politically posture
21 something that you should sort of bend over and
22 hide from.
23 This is not the way to go. As
4962
1 much as I'd love to vote for this bill, say I
2 eliminate all these taxes in good faith, I don't
3 think we can be doing that. If the -- if the
4 raters of New York State see this thing and
5 believe that it could ever pass, we'd be having
6 all kinds of problems with our bonds again.
7 We'd be going back to where we tried to leave a
8 decade, two decades ago, and it's not what we
9 have should be doing.
10 We should be having a responsible
11 budget, not trying to backtrack now in order to
12 curry favor with certain groups in the state,
13 however much we might want to do that. And now
14 I'd be happy to yield.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
16 DeFrancisco, Senator Halperin will yield.
17 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator
18 Halperin, you earlier raised two amendments to
19 the package or bills or the bill that's
20 presently before the Senate, correct?
21 SENATOR HALPERIN: Correct.
22 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Was that
23 done in good faith?
4963
1 SENATOR HALPERIN: I'll -- I'll
2 leave that to your judgment. I will say -
3 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, the
4 question -
5 SENATOR HALPERIN: I will say
6 this: If you remember what I said before, I
7 presented those bills. I said, if you wish to
8 assume that the amnesty will produce those
9 dollars, then, I would like to see these
10 particular tax reductions implemented.
11 I also pointed out that the two
12 of them together is valued at $50 million, not
13 $230 million.
14 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: But will
15 you yield again for another question?
16 SENATOR HALPERIN: Yes.
17 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: But if your
18 amendments passed, would you support the amended
19 version of this bill?
20 SENATOR HALPERIN: If my
21 amendments had passed, would I support -- yes.
22 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Well, then,
23 is it fair to say that you don't have any deep
4964
1 seated hatred for the concept of a tax amnesty
2 program which would reward people who have been
3 cheating this community for years and the horror
4 that would be caused the Tax Department?
5 SENATOR HALPERIN: Well, if it
6 was properly structured, it would be better, but
7 I also pointed out that I -- I do have problems
8 with the tax amnesty program. I meant if I -
9 if I were to have the tax amnesty program once
10 again these bills come up and we don't have the
11 opportunity to do exactly what we wanted and if
12 I thought the amendment would pass, I -- that I
13 would gladly have put forward a tax amnesty
14 program that, number one, would not have applied
15 to the large corporations as -- which is the way
16 we handled it before, would not have let anybody
17 off the hook that is, that have already been
18 identified as -- as being tax cheats and already
19 in the pipeline, so to speak, and then I could
20 have gone along with it, although I still have
21 problems with the notion of letting people off
22 after we say we're never going to do it again.
23 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: O.K.
4965
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
2 Leichter, who was kind enough to yield to
3 Senator Halperin.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you very
5 much, Mr. President.
6 I think it's sad, in fact I think
7 it's appalling while we go through this exercise
8 in "Fantasy Land" that rent control and rent
9 stabilization are expiring and while this little
10 game is being played ostensibly for the benefit
11 of the people of the state of New York, when I
12 think any sane person knows that, one, this
13 program is going nowhere and, secondly, it
14 shouldn't go anywhere except into the waste
15 basket, that what needs to be done to address
16 the concerns of millions of New Yorkers who
17 might find themselves without the protection of
18 rent control, that that issue is not before us
19 and I can only say shame to the Republican
20 Majority for their refusal to address the issue
21 of rent regulation and rent control.
22 Now, if you didn't want to go
23 along with Senator Goodman's bill, a member of
4966
1 the Majority, a respected member I'm sure, to
2 make rent control permanent, you could have gone
3 and extended it for two years, or if you wanted
4 to put up what I think is a foolish bill,
5 frankly, which would have provided for elements
6 of decontrol by Senator Bruno, bring that bill
7 up. But by failing to do anything, you are
8 dooming rent control and for the first time
9 since, I believe, 1942 or 1943, there will be no
10 protection for people in this state, in New York
11 City, in Albany, in Buffalo, in Nassau County,
12 in Westchester, who need this protection. They
13 will not have it, and the failure to do this
14 lies squarely with the Republican Majority.
15 And instead of dealing with an
16 immediate need, we're engaged in playing around
17 with funny money, because that's all it is. The
18 amnesty, by no stretch of the imagination, could
19 conceivably raise the monies that you're talking
20 about, and if it did, it would be perfectly
21 foolish to proceed on the tax reductions that
22 you put forward.
23 Senator Daly speaks, and I'm sure
4967
1 sincerely, about the need to do something about
2 the state's economy. I don't know whether what
3 is said, frankly, what is more unfortunate or
4 what is more distressing than Senator Daly
5 believes this or that we have before us a
6 cynical piece of political propaganda because
7 that every study shows that corporate taxes are
8 not a key decision by corporations of where to
9 locate, whether to expand. They are not a major
10 loss to business. That's just simply so, it is
11 a fact. That has been studied time and time
12 again. Taxes are about the fifth or sixth
13 consideration as far as corporations making a
14 decision where they want to carry on business.
15 Secondly, the corporate taxes in
16 this state as a percentage of the revenue raised
17 happen to be much lower now than they were some
18 years ago. Senator Stafford called to our
19 attention that since he's been here -- and I
20 don't know whether he wanted to claim that there
21 was some correlation -- that the budget has gone
22 up dramatically. But, Senator Stafford, when
23 you first came here, a much larger portion of
4968
1 our revenue came from the corporate tax.
2 Now, there are many reasons why
3 this state has lost jobs, and I'm not suggesting
4 that we don't need some sort of a policy, but
5 the main problems that we've had outside of the
6 recessionary factor, which is worldwide and over
7 which we have very little consideration, is lots
8 of manufacturing jobs, which we can not bring
9 back in any appreciable extent.
10 The job loss that this state has
11 had falls mainly in that area and our response
12 has to be to find those new industries, those
13 new job creations, businesses, which are going
14 to help us grow our economy and what this
15 probably means is investing in those areas where
16 we have an advantage over other states and where
17 we have the potential of bringing in
18 businesses.
19 I suggest one to you is the whole
20 biomedical area. We have wonderful medical
21 institutions in this state. They may not be as
22 strong financially as they once were, but they,
23 together with universities, are the basis by
4969
1 which we could attract some of these
2 industries. So that, if you had money available
3 you would want to put it there instead of an
4 across-the-board reduction in corporate taxes
5 which are not going to create jobs.
6 I don't know why I take your
7 program seriously, because I don't think it's a
8 serious program and, as I think Senator Halperin
9 has pointed out, it is based on funny money and
10 maybe sometimes it's fun to discuss these things
11 even though we know we're engaged in a bit of
12 unreality, but I think what makes it
13 particularly dis... or what makes it distressing
14 today is the fact that we're doing it when there
15 is such pressing business that needs to be
16 addressed, and that is the matter of rent
17 control and rent stabilization.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
19 Dollinger.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
21 Mr. President.
22 I'm just going to tell a brief
23 little story about elected officials coming of
4970
1 age in the era of Houdini economics. I've
2 learned a little lesson about New York State,
3 and it's been a wonderful, wonderful
4 experience. I feel like I'm at a sideshow at a
5 carnival.
6 When I came here, the first thing
7 that I did is that I met one of the magicians,
8 and the magician showed me his hat, turned over
9 the hat and said, "See, there's nothing in
10 there. I've spent all the money in the budget,
11 I've got to cut money, I've got to cut some
12 programs, but look at the top hat and you'll see
13 there's nothing in there."
14 Then he put the top hat back on
15 the table and, sure enough, about two and a half
16 months later, Mr. President, he was joined by a
17 couple other magicians. They waved this little
18 wand and all of a sudden one of them put their
19 hand in the thing and pulled out this rabbit, an
20 800 million, 650 million, $700 million rabbit,
21 and he said, "Look what we found, $700 million
22 worth of rabbit," and he handed it to the other
23 magician is, and they felt the rabbit and it,
4971
1 you know, feels like a rabbit, looks like a
2 rabbit; my gosh, it is a rabbit, and said to the
3 61 people in this body, We've got a live rabbit;
4 what are we going to do with it? We can do a lot
5 of things with it. We could cut it up. We
6 could spend money. We could, of course, give a
7 business tax cut. We could do all the things
8 that the chairman of the Finance Committee now
9 suggests that we do. We could have done all
10 those things with that live rabbit.
11 Well, instead, we sort of cut all
12 the rabbit up and gave money to Little Leagues,
13 we gave money to all these other programs, many
14 good programs, many programs that I question,
15 but, sure enough, we carved up that little
16 rabbit and we parcelled it all around and there
17 was no rabbit for a business tax cut.
18 So I figure that was the
19 decision, right? Lo and behold, I find out this
20 week that one of the magicians appears back on
21 the stage, waves his hand over that little top
22 hat which, of course, we were told was empty,
23 you know, we were shown that little empty
4972
1 top-hat so they fan it to the audience. Sure
2 enough, now one of the magicians taps it three
3 times, reaches into that heretofore empty hat,
4 pulls out this big huge rabbit that says "tax
5 amnesty". Got a big huge rabbit here. It looks
6 like a rabbit. He hands it around to some of
7 the other people on the and they all go, "What
8 rabbit? I haven't seen that rabbit. Must
9 be the reincarnation of Harvey. He's come
10 back."
11 Sure enough, there's a rabbit
12 that someone sees but, frankly, my cynical
13 colleagues, Mr. President, on this side of the
14 aisle say to me, "There's no rabbit there.
15 That's just a figment of someone's imagina
16 tion." Well, you know, I have to agree with the
17 chairman of the Finance Committee, I see a
18 rabbit there, and I like the idea of taking that
19 rabbit and cuttin' it up into a business tax
20 cut.
21 I'm willing to buy the
22 proposition Harvey's come back. You got me.
23 I'm going to vote in favor of this, but my
4973
1 cynical colleagues over here who have been here
2 for several more years, I'm starting to think
3 something's wrong. Maybe I'm being hoodwinked.
4 I see it, but all my colleagues don't. Maybe
5 something's going on that if I am here for
6 another term or another three or four terms or
7 as long as Senator Leichter, maybe I'll stand
8 there and say, "There's no rabbit there." Maybe
9 it's just because I'm a newcomer that I happen
10 to see a rabbit.
11 Maybe when I get more cynical,
12 maybe when I've been around here longer, I'll
13 just say this was a political ploy. I'm not
14 prepared to do that. You got me; I see Harvey.
15 I'm willing to spend -- I'm willing to spend
16 him, but that little tiny voice in the back of
17 my head that says, Gee, maybe when you grow up
18 you'll realize that this is just Houdini
19 economics. Maybe that's -- well, it's not quite
20 taken over yet, but you got me. I see Harvey.
21 I'm willing to spend the money. I'm willing to
22 give us a business tax cut.
23 Some may say I'm grandstanding.
4974
1 Maybe, but, as I said, I can only hope that a
2 little bit more maturity in this chamber will
3 give me further enlightenment, maybe make me a
4 true adult. Maybe when I look at Harvey next
5 time, I won't see anything there as some of my
6 colleagues do now.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
8 Gold, why do you rise? Do you see Harvey?
9 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator
10 Dollinger yield to a question?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
12 Dollinger, Senator Gold would like to know if
13 you would yield to a question.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
15 President, Senator Gold is interrupting my
16 fantasy, so I'm -
17 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
18 Dollinger will not be interrupted.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I've made my
20 point.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, yes. By
22 coincidence last night, I happened to be
23 watching Hans Christian Andersen, and I just
4975
1 happened to have come from the King's palace,
2 and you want to buy this suit of clothes?
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
4 President, I'll just conclude. I -
5 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Thank
6 you, Senator Dollinger.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm prepared
8 -- I'm prepared to go with this, and you've
9 convinced me.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
11 Stachowski.
12 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Just briefly
13 on the bill, and I'm probably also going to vote
14 for this because, if they say the money is
15 there, then I hope the money is there. But I do
16 have a question. It's a rhetorical kind of
17 question.
18 Basically, on what Senator Daly
19 said, where he talked about that this bill is
20 the big bonus for the many unemployed men and
21 women, working men and women, in New York State
22 and I just hope John Daly is right on this
23 particular instance, because I would hate to
4976
1 think that we're going to do this business cut
2 and that particularly the manufacturers who come
3 to us all the time and say, you know, We have to
4 have all these cuts; we're getting heavily
5 penalized by the tax system, why manufacturers
6 are leaving the state, and I would hate to think
7 that they are going to use any kind of money
8 that they gain by this bill if this bill would
9 ever pass this house and then eventually the
10 Assembly and signed by the Governor, and use
11 that money not to hire the unemployed men and
12 women but to use it as the seed money for the
13 new factories that they're planning on building
14 when the NAFTA agreement possibly is passed by
15 the United States with Canada and Mexico, and
16 they use that money to create new factories in
17 Mexico because the people working there who are
18 unemployed, agricultural people that used to
19 have subsidized jobs on the farm, that are now
20 looking to the plants where they can make all of
21 the 59 cents a hour or dollar eventually if
22 things keep getting better for them, and that
23 the end result will be that this bill will have
4977
1 caused the seed money to move the plants and
2 move existing plants, and what we will have done
3 is given them the impetus to lose more jobs in
4 the state of New York, and I hope that's not the
5 case and not that I'm saying that our fine
6 manufacturers in New York would want to do that,
7 but there's people that are in industries that
8 never before talked about things like that and
9 in particular the garment industry and everybody
10 knows about the threat to the auto industries,
11 and I know that the NAFTA has nothing to do with
12 the legislation we're doing.
13 However, when we are worried so
14 much about the manufacturers, and the high costs
15 that they have of doing business in New York and
16 the fact that they already say when they move
17 not because they left for North Carolina, for
18 example, because there was a sweetheart deal and
19 no unions there and they pay less for the
20 employees and they got all kinds of tax breaks
21 that that had nothing to do with it, and not
22 because they go to other states for the same
23 reason where there is not organized labor and
4978
1 now they have this whole new right arm area of
2 Mexico where they'll have to pay very little
3 labor, there's no environmental enforcement and
4 that there's no worker protection kinds of
5 things, not that they would take advantage of
6 that and at the same time maximize their profits
7 in New York, and then tell us when they move
8 it's because we don't get enough easement from
9 New York. Now that they want to make more
10 profits.
11 I just hope that that's not the
12 real reason that business is looking for all
13 this and that, hopefully, we are helping the
14 unemployed men and women in the state of New
15 York.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
17 Nozzolio.
18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
19 I rise for two reasons. The first is to ask
20 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
21 on Calendar Number 677, and the second is to be
22 heard on the bill.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: All
4979
1 right. We'll do that without objection, but
2 please speak on the bill.
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
4 President.
5 I was intrigued by Senator
6 Dollinger's metaphor, but concerned that,
7 although brevity and levity are factors in this
8 chamber that are often welcomed, the fact is
9 that this is an extremely serious situation.
10 Ask anyone who's lost a job in this state over
11 the last year.
12 When I was growing up in the
13 1950s, New York State had one out of every three
14 jobs was in manufacturing. Today it's one of
15 every eight. During the current national
16 recession, New York lost almost 40 percent of
17 the entire manufacturing jobs lost in this
18 nation. In 1992 alone, New York lost over
19 44,000 manufacturing jobs. That is very
20 serious. There is nothing more serious that
21 could be debated in this chamber than this issue
22 of revitalizing New York's economy.
23 That we have a crisis that exudes
4980
1 all proportion; that we have today a million
2 manufacturing jobs in New York; that's the same
3 number of manufacturing jobs that we had when
4 Roosevelt was President of the United States.
5 That's Theodore Roosevelt, not Franklin
6 Roosevelt.
7 This is a serious situation in
8 the area that Senator Dollinger, Senator Jones
9 and I represent, along with Senator Daly, and
10 that's the Rochester/Monroe County area which,
11 once considered the strongest area in the state
12 for manufacturing, has lost 37,000 jobs since
13 1980. That's more people than reside in the
14 county that I reside in, Seneca.
15 My colleagues, of all the reforms
16 that are discussed, of all the issues debated,
17 there are none more serious than this. We need
18 to revitalize our economy. This program jump
19 starts New York's economy along with the bill
20 debated next regarding regulatory reform. We
21 need these together. There were many reasons
22 why -
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
4981
1 President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
3 Leichter, why do you rise?
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will Senator
5 Nozzoli' yield?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Senator
7 Nozzolio, do you yield to Senator Leichter?
8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm always
9 happy to yield to Senator Leichter, although I
10 would like to correct him that there is an "o"
11 on the end of my name and it's been missing the
12 last five or six debates. I know you would like
13 to call me by my right name, or maybe you
14 wouldn't. But Senator Nozzolio is my name.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT LIBOUS: Does
16 that mean you won't yield to Senator Leichter?
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, I will.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry. I
19 have a name that's often mispronounced too, and
20 I try not to be sensitive to this because I've
21 done this also to Senator Kuhl. All right.
22 That was a joke. But -- but we -
23 Senator, you're absolutely right,
4982
1 the loss of manufacturing jobs, you're
2 absolutely right that it's an extremely serious
3 matter, that deserves a serious response, and
4 I'm -- I don't need you to answer that because I
5 know you agree that it needs a serious
6 response.
7 I just want to know from you, do
8 you think that reducing the business tax
9 surcharge from 15 percent to 12.5 percent which,
10 according to my figures, would yield $135
11 million, assuming that they are -- that that's
12 going to bring back all these manufacturing
13 jobs?
14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: It's certainly
15 a start in the right direction, Senator, and I
16 believe that it not only is a step in the right
17 direction, but it sends a very clear signal to
18 those who are forecasting, right now in
19 companies across this state, there are people
20 called business planners, and those business
21 planners are deciding whether or not to locate
22 additional jobs in New York as the economy
23 nationally rebounds or to move those jobs to
4983
1 other states.
2 We need to send a good signal to
3 those business forecasters, Senator, and I think
4 that not only the dollars saved put into the
5 economy but also the signal is very important
6 and, remember, we're also extending the business
7 petroleum tax exemption through this measure
8 which adds another $38 million into the pockets
9 of those who are making these decisions that
10 could be worth another good signal, another
11 addition to this revitalization.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
13 if the good Senator would yield to another
14 question?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would
16 you yield again?
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, could
19 you explain that if the corporate tax is such a
20 factor in the loss of manufacturing jobs that
21 this relatively minor reduction is going to be
22 this great signal and is going to jump start the
23 economy and all the other exciting metaphors you
4984
1 -- and adjectives that you used, why during a
2 time when the corporate tax was declining, and
3 it declined significantly until the surcharge
4 was put on; it declined in real terms, it also
5 declined and continues to decline as a portion
6 of the total state revenue, why was it during
7 that period of decline that we were losing most
8 of our manufacturing jobs which was in the early
9 part of the -- really starting in the middle
10 '70s and continuing into the 1980s?
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, we
12 are being watched in this chamber by the
13 manufacturing and business community of this
14 state. They see Albany, particularly over the
15 last five years, create an environment that was
16 not conducive for expansion. As our economy
17 rebounds nationally, we have to ensure that New
18 York rebounds with it and that I believe that
19 those forecasters now, as they look to the next
20 five years, are looking to a revitalized economy
21 throughout our nation, and that New York must
22 comply, must comply with that rebound.
23 We cannot be against the trend,
4985
1 Senator, and that's -- I believe that by your
2 question, you are stating that to do nothing is
3 the appropriate path? I hope you're not
4 suggesting that, Senator, but it seems like you
5 are. It seems as as though you're saying to do
6 nothing is better than doing something; to send
7 no signal to business is better than sending a
8 positive signal to business. To me, Senator,
9 that's miscast.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
11 just a final -
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: One
13 final question.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Sir, I'm
15 suggesting that doing something that I consider
16 foolish is, indeed, the wrong thing to do and if
17 you had listened to my comments before, Senator,
18 I pointed out some of the things that we could
19 be doing and some of the industries that we
20 could be helping, some of the jobs that we could
21 be creating. It also would be creating more
22 jobs and helping some of our small businesses in
23 export, but it is clear that New York State will
4986
1 not be able to recapture the manufacturing
2 activity that it had in the 1950s and 1940s and
3 it's perfectly senseless to try to talk as if
4 that was something that was in hand. It's not
5 in hand for us, and it's not in hand for most of
6 the Northeast and probably for that matter it's
7 probably not in hand for major portions of the
8 United States.
9 I would -- I would suggest,
10 Senator, that we deal with reality instead of
11 with slogans, and I think then maybe we could -
12 we could begin to address the economic malaise
13 in this state which I submit to you that this
14 bill does not do.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
16 Nozzolio, you have the floor.
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you,
18 Senator.
19 Senator, to surrender regardless
20 of whether you believe manufacturing has a
21 future in this state, and I believe it does -
22 talk to those manufacturers, particularly the
23 upstate area, who are looking to expand, who
4987
1 have developed new product, good product, who
2 have good resources, who have a good work force,
3 the only thing they need is to be able to
4 convince their forecasters that New York does
5 mean business again.
6 That's why I support this
7 measure, Mr. President. I think it is the
8 absolute essential reform that this house, this
9 Legislature, this government could enact. I
10 applaud it. I'm supporting it.
11 This, along with the bureaucratic
12 reform which, in my view, will end the "radar
13 trap" mentality that bureaucracy has had in this
14 state for too long, are the one-two punch needed
15 to be enacted this session.
16 Thank you very much.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Daly.
19 SENATOR DALY: Yes, briefly, Mr.
20 President.
21 I just feel bad that one of my
22 colleagues from Monroe County seems -- is so
23 concerned and so uncomfortable. I wouldn't like
4988
1 to see that continue.
2 The rabbit problem: I really
3 believe that the rabbits multiplied too fast and
4 Senator Dollinger missed one because the rabbit
5 amnesty was there all the time. He couldn't see
6 it. It sat right in the middle of a negotiating
7 table in the budget. We've been talking amnesty
8 now for six months. We knew it was there.
9 Unfortunately the Assembly and the Governor
10 wouldn't talk to us, and this is our way of
11 raising the question again, and a very
12 legitimate way.
13 Thank you, Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Jones.
16 SENATOR JONES: Yes. To speak on
17 the bill.
18 I'm left with a few questions, I
19 guess, on this bill but, you know, kind of more
20 rhetorical questions than anything. Since I'm
21 the new person here, I guess I'm left wondering
22 where these terrible taxes came from that
23 obviously have been harmful to business, and my
4989
1 second question that I keep asking myself is,
2 why didn't we fix them during budget time?
3 Obviously I can't take the blame,
4 and I'm surely not going to assess it either.
5 My -- Senator Daly just mentioned it was there,
6 the amnesty was there all the time; we couldn't
7 see it. That's correct because we weren't in on
8 the budget negotiations. I didn't see it, but
9 nevertheless, all those things aside, I really
10 applaud your efforts because I agree with
11 Senator Nozzolio, I certainly have had the
12 business people at our door, I know our own
13 Eastman Kodak had to make a further announcement
14 today of further cutbacks. They're selling off
15 one of their businesses. So no one has to tell
16 me what upstate New York is suffering in the
17 manufacturing line.
18 I certainly am not privy to how
19 the numbers are multiplied or added around here
20 because it is a mystery how money keeps turning
21 up, but I'm going to make the assumption that,
22 as my colleague did, that they're correct, and I
23 really hope we're not just sending a signal. I
4990
1 really want to send a real relief package that
2 is going to boost the economy of this state. So
3 I'm hoping that is what we're doing today, and I
4 also am going to say at this point, I will look
5 forward to working with all of you next year at
6 budget time, since I'm of the opinion this is a
7 one-time thing and we will certainly have to
8 make some significant cuts next year if we're
9 going to be able to send out a balanced budget
10 and maintain these relief tax -- tax relief
11 packages that we're giving today.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Stafford to close.
14 Was there somebody else? I'm
15 sorry.
16 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Onorato.
19 SENATOR ONORATO: I just wonder
20 if the sponsor would yield to a question.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Stafford, would you yield?
23 SENATOR ONORATO: It isn't often
4991
1 that we have an opportunity to vote on some tax
2 reductions and give some business relief to our
3 state. I was just wondering, your assumptions
4 are that we'll generate $230 million from the
5 tax amnesty. We know positively that you've got
6 $230 million worth of tax cuts and tax relief.
7 Do we have a failsafe mechanism like, you know,
8 when we go to the track and we make a bet on a
9 horse we know we're betting against someone
10 else's money, and we know if we bet on a
11 two-to-one shot we're going to get two-to-one
12 return on our money. But here you're assuming
13 $230 million in amnesty funds that will come
14 in. If we do not generate the $230 million, is
15 there a failsafe mechanism in here to ensure
16 that we don't come back with a $200 million
17 deficit after providing $230 million worth of
18 tax relief?
19 SENATOR STAFFORD: That's an
20 excellent question. I mentioned earlier,
21 Senator, that I found a number of years ago
22 that, as I said, science is not -- or medicine
23 is not an exact science, and I assure you all of
4992
1 these proposals and projections that we're given
2 every year by the various offices, whether it's
3 legislative, executive or other, they're not
4 final; we're not sure and all we do is try to do
5 the best we can in making these projections.
6 I certainly would not stand here
7 if I did not think we could get $230 million.
8 We're not certain that our projections last year
9 were exactly right.
10 SENATOR ONORATO: Well, I just
11 felt that perhaps it would make more sense to
12 predicate the tax relief based upon the monies
13 that were generated from the tax amnesty. Once
14 we have the monies in the pot, then we know
15 exactly how much we can give.
16 SENATOR STAFFORD: I see your
17 point.
18 SENATOR ONORATO: I think that
19 would make a lot more sense.
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: Possible,
21 excuse me. Also when you said that you have a
22 two-to-one that you always double your money,
23 that's not always been the case with me.
4993
1 I would share this with you
2 also. I would share -
3 SENATOR ONORATO: You should have
4 a better betting system.
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: You're much
6 better than I.
7 I would suggest, if we could do
8 that with the whole budget as a matter of fact.
9 We don't know exactly what their projections are
10 or what the exact number is, there's no question
11 about it, but you can believe it or not, you can
12 get people that are very, very expert and they
13 will give you three different numbers and we
14 actually have a word for that in the budget and
15 to -- and I would say, as far as Senator James
16 Stewart is concerned -- I'm talking about Harvey
17 -- wait until he's been here long enough and he
18 starts to hear a carrot make a noise, then he
19 really knows there's a problem.
20 But I say on a very serious note,
21 on a very serious note, these are steps in the
22 right direction, and I think, again, Senator
23 Marino and all the sponsors and all who have
4994
1 worked on this proposal are to be complimented.
2 This is a direction we have to go, and I'll
3 finally say this because it's been said too many
4 times today, we have to support and get the
5 business engine going in this state. We have to
6 work toward that end and, if we don't, all is
7 for nought.
8 That's why this bill is good, and
9 I certainly hope that it prevails.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
11 the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 41. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
15 the roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll. )
17 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
18 may I explain my vote.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Libous to explain his vote.
21 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
22 President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
4995
1 hands of those that are going down.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
3 President.
4 You know, it's interesting, last
5 week I had the pleasure of touring several
6 manufacturing businesses in my district along
7 with Senator Seward, and at each stop we talked
8 about this proposal, and many of the business
9 owners said to us, Why would anybody be against
10 this proposal? It's good for business. It's
11 good for the state's economy. It's going to
12 create jobs. It's going to get things started
13 again. Why would a legislator want to vote
14 against this proposal?
15 I wish those people were here
16 today because I couldn't explain it on that
17 day. There should be no reason why anyone in
18 this chamber doesn't support this legislation.
19 You know, I heard throughout the debate how we
20 have to -- we have to move forward, and then I
21 heard a little bit about history and how we
22 tried the tax amnesty and we tried a number of
23 different things.
4996
1 The bottom line is business is
2 hurting in this state. We have to do something
3 to create jobs. This proposal is a start in
4 that direction. We've got to become
5 business-friendly in this state. That's a term
6 I hear all the time in talking to my businesses
7 and for those of you who don't believe that just
8 a slight rollback to 12.5 percent is important,
9 it sends a positive message. And I heard
10 somebody say, Well, that's just a slogan. Well,
11 sometimes slogans work and I think this
12 legislation is excellent.
13 It is a message to business. It
14 is a message that every legislator should vote
15 aye for and send to business because we want to
16 do one thing, and that's put people back to work
17 in this state. So we can talk about the past;
18 we can listen to history and you can tell me how
19 nothing ever works and how these proposals
20 didn't work before. We've got to try to do
21 something.
22 I urge you to vote with me and
23 vote yes on this proposal.
4997
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
2 Bruno to explain his vote.
3 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
4 would just stand and remind my colleagues that
5 have been speaking in opposition to this package
6 that they ought to refresh themselves on their
7 leader in this country when he repeatedly said,
8 "It's the economy, Stupid."
9 Remember that, ladies and
10 gentlemen, as you vote against a tax package/
11 regulatory reform package that is intended to
12 help fix the economy. So just remember what
13 your leader trooped around this country saying,
14 "It's the economy, Stupid," as you vote against
15 this package. You take that message back to
16 your constituency that you had an opportunity to
17 do something about the economy and you rejected
18 it, and hopefully those same people will reflect
19 on that a year from this November.
20 I vote yes.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Halperin to explain his vote, then Senator
23 Stachowski.
4998
1 SENATOR HALPERIN: I'd like to
2 make it very clear. I'm not against these tax
3 cuts. I believe that they would be helpful in
4 stimulating business but, as good as they might
5 be, we will be doing more harm to ourselves if
6 we begin again to go down the slippery slope of
7 fiscal irresponsibility.
8 If you were really so committed
9 about these tax cuts, then why didn't you bring
10 them up as part of the regular budget along with
11 spending cuts, spending from some of the
12 programs you like? Because that was too
13 difficult.
14 So now you come ahead with a
15 bogus amnesty program that, even if it did work
16 -- and it won't work -- but even if it did
17 work, all this does it's another one-shot. It's
18 another $230 million we'll have to find next
19 year, and I'm sure I've heard a lot of criticism
20 from the Republican Party against the mayor of
21 the city of New York and the City Council and
22 the Republican members of the City Council who
23 all voted against the irresponsible city budget
4999
1 that was balanced on one-shots and how terrible
2 that was.
3 Well, what do you think you're
4 doin' here? This is a one-shot. Next year
5 you're going to have to find, assuming this
6 thing works which I doubt, I think you're going
7 to have to find a way to pay back the deficit,
8 the shortfall, from last year and you'd have to
9 find out how to make the one-shots up for next
10 year.
11 It's not going to work. It's
12 just not going to work. It's irresponsible.
13 The rating agencies are going to clobber us if
14 they ever thought this was serious and that
15 would hurt us more and hurt the businesses more
16 in this state than your proposal would help.
17 So if you want to do this, come
18 up with a balanced budget and do it as part of a
19 balanced budget, not in this irresponsible
20 manner.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Stachowski.
23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I'm just
5000
1 rising to vote yes on this bill. I just hope
2 that hopefully it works out as proposed that we
3 can stimulate business, and I'm sure Senator
4 Bruno is just reminding us about all these
5 taxes, all of which he voted for and that we're
6 finally going to take these off of business and
7 continue the economy growing.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
9 Results.
10 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
11 the negative on Calendar Number 1106 are
12 Senators Connor, Espada, Gold, Halperin,
13 Leichter, Markowitz, Mendez, Montgomery,
14 Ohrenstein, Smith and Waldon, also Santiago.
15 Ayes 49, nays 12.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
17 bill is passed.
18 Senator Sears.
19 SENATOR SEARS: Mr. President, on
20 page 12, Calendar Number 677, Print Number 69-C,
21 could you record me in the negative, please.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
23 objection.
5001
1 Senator Libous.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
3 can we return to motions for a second?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We
5 certainly can, I guess. It's up to Senator
6 Present.
7 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
8 President, and Senator Present.
9 Mr. President, I wish to call up
10 my bill, Print Number 3815-B, recalled from the
11 Assembly which is now at the desk.
12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
13 Libous, Senate Bill Number 3815-B, an act to
14 amend the General Business Law.
15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
16 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
17 bill was passed.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
19 the roll on reconsideration.
20 (The Secretary called the roll on
21 reconsideration. )
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is
23 before the house. Senator Libous.
5002
1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
2 now offer up the following amendments.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
4 Amendments are received. Bill will retain its
5 place.
6 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
7 have one more motion.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
9 Certainly.
10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
11 on behalf of Senator Kuhl, I wish to call up his
12 bill, Senate Print Number 2667-A, recalled from
13 the Assembly, which is now at the desk.
14 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Kuhl,
15 Senate Bill 2667-A, an act to amend the
16 Navigation Law.
17 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
18 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
19 bill was passed.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
21 the roll on reconsideration.
22 (The Secretary called the roll on
23 reconsideration. )
5003
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 61.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
3 now hand up the following amendments.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
5 Amendments are received, the bill will retain
6 its place.
7 Senator Present.
8 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
9 we call up Calendar Number 1105, please.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1105, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number
12 5868, an act to amend the Executive Law.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Bruno.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, we
16 have an opportunity in this chamber late this
17 afternoon, early this evening, to do something
18 for the people of this state that my colleagues
19 who have commented were right, we didn't do
20 earlier in this year. But you, again, will
21 recall -- and I didn't make it up -- and reflect
22 on, better late than never. I didn't make it
23 up; I read that somewhere. I heard that
5004
1 somewhere.
2 Now, Senator Leichner, I am
3 absolutely amazed, as I sat here and, believe
4 me, I had all I could do to stay in my chair
5 when you talk about business not minding paying
6 taxes in this state, and that it is not
7 expressive and oppressive, but that issue
8 temporarily has been dealt with, thanks to the
9 Majority in this house, and a few of your
10 colleagues who have great wisdom to join us.
11 We dealt with that issue, but
12 there are two parts to what has created the
13 problems that we suffer in our economy in this
14 state. One is the high taxation and the other
15 is the excessive regulation of businesses in
16 this state.
17 Senator Marino, in his wisdom,
18 has seen fit to provide the leadership with the
19 Majority in this house, hopefully with many of
20 our colleagues on your side of the aisle, to try
21 and do something to move the economy forward in
22 this state, to create jobs, to help businesses
23 create profits so that they can expand their
5005
1 businesses.
2 The objective of this package, if
3 it has escaped you, is to do something
4 specifically with some of the harshest taxes
5 that we have to levy on the people of this state
6 and remove them, and at the same time recognize
7 that the over-regulation that is smothering
8 businesses must be faced.
9 If you're not aware, and I've
10 heard the statistics mentioned by Senator Daly
11 and so many of the others here, just focus on
12 the fact, Senator Leichner, and I have to look
13 at you and talk specifically to you because of
14 the observations and comments that you were
15 making.
16 43 percent of all of the jobs
17 lost in this country came from New York State
18 until the last three or four years. Does anyone
19 in this chamber think that that's an accident;
20 that that just happens? Does anybody here think
21 that? We must take the responsibility, we in
22 this chamber, for having done some things wrong,
23 led by the chief executive of this state, our
5006
1 Governor, led by our Governor.
2 So while you take great pleasure
3 in talking about the tax packages that we voted
4 for, bear in mind that it's your Governor, our
5 Governor, that proposed these budget and these
6 tax packages to cover the spending that he also
7 proposed.
8 Excessive taxes, excessive
9 regulation, 43 percent of all the jobs lost in
10 this country come from New York State. For the
11 first time this year since 1906, we have less
12 than a million manufacturing jobs in New York
13 State. Since 1906. Senators will say, what are
14 you goin' to do about it? Manufacturing jobs are
15 gone from New York State, and they're gone
16 forover, quote/unquote.
17 Well, that's just a lot of
18 nonsense. That's all it is. If we have the
19 guts to do what has to be done, Senator Marino
20 and the Republican Majority in this house is
21 leading the way and showing the way. If you've
22 got the guts to join, we can do something to
23 turn this economy around.
5007
1 The Governor has said we will lag
2 the rest of the country in the recovery. Why?
3 Why must we lag the rest of the country? We in
4 this house should refuse to accept that. We
5 should lead the way. We have a package that
6 does away with much of the over-regulation that
7 is smothering, suffocating, stifling business in
8 this state, creating the 650,000 jobs lost in
9 the last several years.
10 Now, maybe we can't do all that
11 we'd like to do in tax relief, but, Senator,
12 examine this program; maybe you can support
13 lifting the costs of these regulations that
14 stifle business, smother business, drive them
15 out of the state, drive them out of business,
16 create the unemployment that we have suffered
17 from in this state.
18 I'm not going to go through
19 specifically all parts of this legislation
20 because I have a feeling a few of you stayed up
21 late last night studying this legislation and
22 are prepared to address some of the specifics.
23 I know Senator Mendez was probably up until 3:00
5008
1 or so, reviewing this legislation, and I know
2 many of you were studying it. Senator Leichner
3 is still studying.
4 Generally, we talk about doing
5 something about fees that are passed on to the
6 consumers in this state. We're saying things
7 that are so practical, like if you paid a fee
8 for a permit to the state, presently you pay 100
9 percent of the fee. It might be six months, it
10 might be a year, it might be never when you get
11 that permit. What we say in this legislation,
12 when you apply for a permit you pay one-third of
13 the cost; you in business, keep the rest of the
14 money. When you get the permit or if it's
15 denied and there is a cost associated, you pay
16 the other two-thirds. Just practical common
17 sense. When you get the goods delivered, that's
18 when you pay, not what we're doing now.
19 We're talking about things like
20 getting rid of that "southern sheriff radar"
21 mentality of trapping people as they go through
22 their town to fine them. We're talking about
23 taking the fines that the agencies like to levy,
5009
1 because by levying fines they fund their own
2 agencies, just totally unfair to business,
3 non-productive. We're talking about taking
4 those fines, putting them into the general
5 fund.
6 We're talking about sensible
7 things like improving the IDA in the way they
8 function. We're talking about sensible things
9 like negotiated rule-making, negotiated
10 regulations. Very simply, if an agency is going
11 to regulate a business or a profession, they
12 must indicate so publicly and then give that
13 profession or industry a chance to put together
14 a committee with an independent arbitrator
15 appointed by the Office of Business Permits and
16 Regulatory Assistance, an independent arbitrator
17 that would participate in the process of
18 rule-making as an agency is going to regulate a
19 business or a profession. Just sensible, giving
20 people input.
21 We're talking about the hundreds
22 of economic development programs in this state
23 that don't work. We're talking about getting
5010
1 the private sector involved in helping them
2 establish goals and objectives and then
3 reporting those goals and objectives back to the
4 Legislature and whether or not they're met.
5 We're talking about trying to
6 make those programs more efficient, but let
7 private sector people have an opportunity to
8 refine these literally hundreds of programs,
9 some of them meaningless, that aren't working.
10 If they were, we wouldn't lead the country in
11 job loss, if they were working, so let's try and
12 fix them, since they're apparently broke.
13 We're talking about setting up an
14 independent agent within several of the state
15 agencies that impact business the most, like Ag
16 and Markets, labor, EnCon. This independent
17 agent would be responsible to the Office of
18 Business Permits, not to the agency, and that
19 individual would be there within the agency to
20 make sure that the agency is responsive, to try
21 and refine the work of that agency to be
22 available for businesses that reach that
23 individual to help cut through the red tape in
5011
1 that agency. Common sense. You would wonder
2 why it's not done now.
3 I could go down with a litany of
4 other regulations that are stifling businesses
5 that we have an opportunity now to do something
6 about. Senator Wright had an idea that is in
7 legislative form that's incorporated here that
8 talks about establishing an office of
9 administration, which is designed to take the
10 agency bugs out of the business.
11 We talked about prohibiting
12 agencies from promulgating new regulations that
13 suffocate and smother businesses. That's what
14 we're talking about in this package, very
15 comprehensive.
16 I've given you ten minutes worth
17 of some of the highlights, not even all of
18 them. Look at it closely, study it and
19 recognize that what we're trying to do in this
20 house is serious business. We're trying to help
21 create jobs for people in this state that
22 desperately look to us for leadership.
23 So join with us in this effort to
5012
1 help this economy recover, create jobs in this
2 state, get people off of welfare and
3 unemployment. You have an opportunity to do
4 that, and I hope you will take advantage of it.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Stavisky was first. I'm sorry, Senator
7 Leichter.
8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President,
9 I wonder if Senator Bruno would yield for just
10 one question.
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Senator.
12 SENATOR STAVISKY: I note that in
13 a summary of the provisions of this bill, the
14 removal of enforcement fines as a revenue
15 source, am I correct in stating that?
16 SENATOR BRUNO: In that they
17 would go directly to the agency, not necessarily
18 removal of the fines. The fines would go into
19 the General fund.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: O.K. Let me
21 ask you this question: Does this provision apply
22 to the penalties provision of the Taylor Law
23 which, as you know, requires that for every day
5013
1 that a public employee is striking, there is a
2 two-for-one strike penalty, and not only is
3 there one day withdrawn from the worker's
4 salary, but two days are withdrawn and very
5 frequently, the employers -- in this case
6 government, local government, state government,
7 the school districts --have, in fact, used the
8 strike penalties, the two-for-one penalties, as
9 a means of funding even the small settlement
10 that may finally be arrived at.
11 In order to be fair to labor, to
12 employees as well as to the employers, does your
13 bill address that unfair provision contained in
14 the Taylor Law?
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, it applies
16 to the Taylor Law if the fines would accrue to
17 the state. It applies to all state agencies.
18 All fines collected would go into the general
19 fund.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: What about
21 subdivisions of the state like school districts?
22 SENATOR BRUNO: It does not
23 address subdivisions.
5014
1 SENATOR STAVISKY: Or a county.
2 So a county or a school district, under the
3 provision of the law that we passed, a state law
4 known as the Taylor Law, which was supposed to
5 remove the unfair provisions of the
6 Condon-Wadlin Law -- I remember that debate in
7 the middle of the night in 1967 --so this
8 proposal for fairness doesn't provide fairness
9 for employees, only for employers, am I right?
10 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, your -
11 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yes or no.
12 SENATOR BRUNO: You're talking
13 about the Taylor Law, you're talking about
14 school districts, you're talking about
15 municipalities. I am answering your question as
16 forthrightly as I can. Does not apply to
17 municipalities or school districts. It applies
18 to all state agencies, and fines that are levied
19 by state agencies. Can't be any clearer than
20 that, Senator.
21 You want to speak on the Taylor
22 Law, be my guest'. I'll sit and I'll listen to
23 you.
5015
1 SENATOR STAVISKY: I'll be very
2 happy to, Senator Bruno.
3 It appears that we are fair in
4 one direction. It appears that we are unfair in
5 one direction, and we in the state of New York
6 and I don't -- I don't recall that you were a
7 member of the Legislature at that time, I think
8 you were a staff member, we in the state of New
9 York imposed a set of ground rules not only with
10 regard to state government employment but with
11 regard to local government employment, counties,
12 municipalities, school districts, and we said
13 that, if someone goes out on strike because
14 there was no negotiation, because only one side
15 was willing to negotiate, that there will be a
16 penalty provision, a two-for-one penalty
17 provision under the -- under the law that we in
18 the state adopted, and what you're saying here
19 in this interest of fairness -- and I listened
20 to you very closely, Senator Bruno -- you said
21 that we would remove the enforcement fines as a
22 revenue source.
23 Senator Bruno, if you're serious
5016
1 about this, you ought to apply -- you ought to
2 apply the same standard to another law that we
3 approved in the state of New York during a
4 Republican governor, with help obviously from
5 two houses of the Legislature, and we ought to
6 make it fair for employees as well as employers,
7 and that's where I think you are not dealing
8 equitably with both sides of the negotiating
9 table, and sometimes there is no negotiation and
10 as Assemblyman Rossetti said during that night,
11 he said it better than anybody else, he didn't
12 say labor is not a commodity, which is what the
13 constitution says, he said, "You see these
14 hands? You can't make them work against their
15 will." And he opposed the Taylor Law because of
16 that use of the penalties provision as a revenue
17 source, as a revenue source, exactly what you
18 claim you'd like to eliminate here but are not.
19 So I say there are some flaws in
20 your approach. It's not even-handed.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
23 Leichter.
5017
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Senator
2 Bruno has put forward this bill as the economic
3 universal solvent. About the only things you
4 told us this bill wouldn't cure, Senator, I
5 guess you just forgot it, was in-grown toe
6 nails. Except for that, this -- oh, this bill
7 is going to make everything the -- the New York
8 State will prosper and the economy, and we're so
9 grateful for the brilliant leadership of Senator
10 Marino and the Majority. And the thing I find
11 interesting is, because I'm very fond of Senator
12 Marino and my Republican friends, but you're
13 slow on the learning curve, and it became clear
14 to me, Senator, when I heard you talk in
15 explaining your vote on the previous great bill
16 that we had, the one that restores manufacturing
17 in this state to 1950 levels, when you said,
18 "It's the economy, Stupid," and it's usual the
19 Republicans are always too late in understanding
20 it.
21 Yes, it was the economy, Senator,
22 but there was --and it wasn't that George Bush,
23 your candidate, didn't speak about the economy.
5018
1 He did; but he talked about the economy in ways
2 that people understood that he needed a reality
3 check and, Senator, frankly, you need a reality
4 check, and this bill, if it were subjected to a
5 reality check, would not make it.
6 Frankly, this bill sort of
7 reminds me of the town dump. It has every idea
8 that hasn't done anything, you know, you throw
9 away, and sometimes in the town dump you find a
10 few things that shouldn't have been thrown away
11 and indeed there are provisions in this bill
12 that, if it were broken out in separate bills,
13 I'm sure would gain substantial support from
14 members of this side of the aisle, that maybe I
15 would support too.
16 But overall, this bill is founded
17 and based on anecdotal evidence, a failure to
18 understand what the real thrust of the economy
19 is in this state, a point that, Senator Bruno,
20 you got up before and -- and you're wrong.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Bruno, why do you rise?
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Can I just
5019
1 finish this sentence, and then I'll yield.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He
3 won't yield.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: You said 43
5 percent of all the jobs lost in this country
6 come from New York State. 43 percent of the
7 manufacturing jobs, that's a big difference,
8 it's significant, but it's a big difference.
9 Senator, we're dealing here with
10 people's lives, we're dealing with something
11 that's very real, which is economic problems in
12 this state, that we can probably affect to a
13 very minimal degree and to that effect -- to
14 that extent, we ought to do it, but we ought to
15 do it with something serious.
16 I'll yield.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Bruno.
19 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you, Mr.
20 President.
21 Senator, there is always an
22 excuse by you, your Governor, not to cut taxes
23 when they're proposed, not to cut regulations,
5020
1 always an excuse, always.
2 Now, I wrote like to ask you,
3 Senator, what part of these regulations that
4 we're trying to remove or trying to improve do
5 you think are silly or a waste of our time and
6 effort? Name one here that you don't think
7 would be productive if we enacted into law, just
8 one.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator,
10 fine. Let me -- let me first point out, and I
11 think it was stated by Senator Stachowski, but
12 it deserves to be reminded and I mean you
13 castigate the Governor on all of these terrible
14 ideas; you're voting with him. We voted against
15 these taxes.
16 I think the Governor has made
17 some mistakes. The fact that he's from my
18 party, I can say he's made a mistake. The fact
19 was that it was the Republican Party and the
20 Republican Governor, Nelson Rockefeller, that
21 jacked up the taxes in this state, that had
22 out-of-control spending.
23 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator -
5021
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: That had
2 out-of-control spending; so let me just say
3 this, certainly on the bill, I'll tell you some
4 things.
5 First of all, you set up and you
6 people love to do this, you know, you talk,
7 we're going to reduce the administrative
8 burden. The first thing you do is you set up
9 about four or five or six or seven boards that
10 didn't exist before and then when somebody says,
11 But wait, isn't is that going to cost money? Oh,
12 no, no, no, no, that, we're -- we don't have to
13 fund them.
14 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, could
15 you just share with me one thing, share with me
16 what specifically you think -
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: I just told
18 you. Secondly, you have an incentive -- you
19 have an incentive tax program here; we have
20 tried that. It was a colossal failure, Senator,
21 and I can continue going. Unlike Senator
22 Mendez, who stayed up all night studying this, I
23 thought I had something better to do. I went to
5022
1 sleep, and frankly, if I had read this, it would
2 have put me to sleep very quickly.
3 SENATOR BRUNO: (Inaudible).
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: But the
5 proposal -- the proposal for DEC, that's one of
6 the real bugaboos that you people hate. So what
7 are you going to do with DEC? You're going to
8 impose controls by putting in people through a
9 legislative process.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Will
11 you yield to that question from Senator
12 Leichter?
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: I was
14 answering him.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I can't
17 tell -- just a moment. Let's have a little
18 order here. I can't tell who has got the floor
19 or who is asking questions or who is answering
20 them.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, maybe
22 you've been up too late studying this. I've got
23 the floor.
5023
1 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
2 who has the floor?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I think
4 Senator Leichter does at the moment, Senator
5 Bruno.
6 SENATOR BRUNO: Then, Mr.
7 President, would you ask the good Senator in his
8 good grace if he would answer my question
9 without going on with all of this filibuster and
10 all of this rhetoric and foolishness? Just give
11 me one specific.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Just a
13 moment. Senator Leichter, will you yield? Just
14 a moment. Senator Leichter, will you yield to a
15 question from Senator Bruno?
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Yes.
17 Senator, I -
18 SENATOR BRUNO: Just answer the
19 question.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, as I
21 mentioned before, specifically on page 24, as I
22 said, the industrial and commercial incentive
23 board, I think that's a mistake. We've had that
5024
1 in the city of New York. We found that it was
2 not particularly effective.
3 Secondly, you have, I think, the
4 New York State Private Industry Review Council.
5 Senator, I question the value or the benefit of
6 that. I saw that you seek to impose some
7 constraints on the DEC. I find that that is
8 unwise and, as you yourself said, there are
9 other agencies where you seek to intermingle
10 legislative and executive functions as a means
11 of impeding those executive agencies in carrying
12 out their functions. Those are some of the
13 things that I find wrong with -- with this
14 particular bill.
15 Senator, I think there are
16 improvements that we can certainly make in our
17 administrative procedures. I have no question
18 but that, in some instances, it has been
19 difficult for businesses to do some of the
20 things that they want to do, and in some
21 instances, Senator, we had to do that, because
22 we were under federal mandate regarding clean
23 water, clean air.
5025
1 We also have a responsibility,
2 Senator, for the physical health of the people
3 of the state of New York, and that requires that
4 when it comes to wetlands and when it comes to
5 other environmental areas that the Department of
6 Environmental Conservation has to make rules,
7 has to take actions relating to pesticides and
8 -- and so on.
9 But what I find particularly
10 distressing, Senator, and there I just think you
11 completely lost the message about "It's the
12 economy, Stupid." Didn't say, it's the economy
13 stupid, and that anything you do is O.K.
14 Anything you may do may be very stupid, Senator,
15 and the point is to take a look at what the
16 problems are of the state of New York. To a
17 large extent, it isn't because of the Governor;
18 isn't even because you voted for all those
19 taxes, Senator Bruno.
20 It's because we're in a world
21 recession, and that is the basic problem that we
22 have. It's also that we -- the nature of the
23 economy is changed; manufacturing has declined,
5026
1 and there's no way we can bring it back. We
2 know that the key factors for businesses are
3 such things as the cost of doing business.
4 Do you have a well-trained work
5 force? Our work force is not nearly as well
6 trained as it used to be. One of the reasons is
7 because of the cutbacks that we have had in CUNY
8 and the community colleges, and so on. That's
9 the first thing businesses look for.
10 They look at the cost of
11 utilities, transportation. There are studies,
12 Senator, which show that these factors are so
13 much more important to businesses than taxes.
14 Taxes, yes. Taxes certainly is a cost of doing
15 business, but it's relative to these other
16 items, it's a much -- it's a much smaller cost.
17 So I just want to point out
18 that -
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Bruno, why do you rise?
21 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
22 would Senator Leichner yield to one more
23 question?
5027
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would
2 you yield?
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, yes.
4 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, do you
5 know that the National Federation of Independent
6 Businesses did a survey two years ago, '91, and
7 the survey showed that 72 percent of all the
8 business in New York State, small businesses
9 especially, felt that government was hostile to
10 their business, and that 49 percent of them said
11 they'd leave the state if they could.
12 Do you know also, Senator, that
13 The Business Council, this very day, wrote a
14 report, testified to a lot of the things we're
15 talking about here and how critical this package
16 is, this package to move forward, and do you
17 know that The Business Council in March this
18 year did a survey and that 79 percent of the
19 business people surveyed said New York State is
20 a very, very difficult state to do business in,
21 more difficult than any other state, almost 80
22 percent of all businesses.
23 My question is, Senator, do you
5028
1 go on with business as usual or do we recognize
2 these things and try and do something about it
3 as we are here today? That's my question,
4 Senator. Do we do something about it?
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, and
6 my answer to you is, do something that is
7 intelligent. Do something that I think, to the
8 limited extent that we can affect the economy,
9 because clearly if you have a world economic
10 recession and you have a national recession
11 particularly severe in New York and in the
12 Northeast, no state has the power to pull itself
13 up by the bootstraps.
14 I think there are things that we
15 could do that make some difference. I tried to
16 point out before, and I'm not going to repeat
17 what some of those things are dealing with
18 exports and -- and trying to bring in biomedical
19 industries, and so on, which I think we can do
20 to a much greater extent than we've done,
21 Senator.
22 But I think that here and there,
23 you could find ways to make doing business in
5029
1 this state better, but the major things that I
2 try to point out to you, a well-trained work
3 force, utility costs, transportation costs,
4 these factors I don't see that any of them have
5 been addressed by the package of bills that you
6 put forward.
7 You start out, you get a sum of
8 money, you give a tax deduction which, frankly,
9 is almost meaningless as far as job creation
10 and, therefore, denies the opportunity even if
11 your money wasn't funny money, it was monopoly
12 money, but let's say it was real money,
13 something that came out of the federal mint, you
14 wouldn't use it that way, then you come up with
15 what you claim is great regulatory administra
16 tion reform where you create more boards than we
17 had. We end up with more administrative boards
18 under your plan than we started out with. You
19 have all sorts of tax exemptions, tax abatement
20 programs, and you stifle some of the agencies in
21 doing what they need to do to protect the people
22 of the state of New York.
23 You're going to make the quality
5030
1 of life worse, and that is essentially why
2 people say, I'd like to do business somewhere
3 else than in New York State.
4 I think we can do better than
5 this. I think we've got to do better than this,
6 but I think we'll only do better than this when
7 we -- when we get away from sloganeering, from
8 the shibboleths, when we start looking at what
9 the real concerns are that we must have in this
10 -- in this state, what the real needs are.
11 There are things that require our
12 attention. This package of bills, frankly,
13 doesn't do it.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 DeFrancisco.
16 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I think the
17 only way the quality of life in this state is
18 going to be made better for more people is if
19 people can work and, although it probably need
20 not be said, but listening to some of the debate
21 I think probably it should be said that in order
22 to create jobs, businesses have to make money,
23 and I don't think there's anything inherently
5031
1 wrong with that concept.
2 To make money, it's got to be a
3 situation in the state that is friendly to
4 business so that the businesses can operate
5 without impediments to doing business. Can you
6 imagine, and I want to refer to one part of this
7 bill because I started drafting some legislation
8 on it myself, and that's the bill, the part of
9 the bill that says agencies are no longer going
10 to be able to fine and assess people to put it
11 back in their department, rather it's going to
12 go into the general revenue, general fund and
13 there's nothing to do with the Taylor Law.
14 The Taylor Law has nothing to do
15 with this. It's where the money goes in. It
16 doesn't go to the agency any more, it goes
17 directly to the general fund, wherever it comes
18 from.
19 Could you imagine being able to
20 start a business where you have absolutely no
21 overhead whatsoever because the state's going to
22 pay for it? They'll pay your payroll for an
23 agency and, if you need more people or you need
5032
1 more money, then all you got to do is go out and
2 look for problems and find somebody and, if you
3 don't want to find them, you could create
4 another assessment and if you don't really want
5 to get to that particular problem that day, just
6 hold off that permit application and we'll wait
7 until we get some more people after we find
8 another company.
9 I mean it's absolutely amazing
10 that we would be in a position in this state to
11 allow agencies to be the arbiters of the fines
12 that they impose that are -- go back into their
13 own system to pay for their own salaries. It's
14 absolutely unbelieveable and what this bill
15 does, one component of the bill does, is it
16 says, We're not going to allow that any more.
17 You're going to have to live on your own merit
18 if you're an agency and you're going to have to
19 fight with everybody else for funds out of the
20 general fund, and then maybe when you need some
21 money out of the general fund, there will be a
22 tax base from which to get money, and that's a
23 tax base that is collected from businesses that
5033
1 stay here when the business climate is more
2 friendly than it is right now.
3 And it's not a question of being
4 for people or for business. It's a question of
5 creating jobs in this community, and that's the
6 only way it's going to happen.
7 You know, there may be other ways
8 to do this and more intelligent ways to do this,
9 but before you criticize something as not being
10 intelligent, it might be a good idea to read the
11 bill first, rather than to go to sleep because
12 the bill is too long or too complicated.
13 But the fact of the matter is,
14 this is one plan and one group of ideas that
15 will at least deserve a chance of success. You
16 know, the Governor could do a lot of this by a
17 stroke of the pen. He's the executive. He
18 chooses not to.
19 The fact is, we can do something
20 if this passes the Assembly as well. It may not
21 be the best plan or the absolutely perfect plan
22 but it sure is a step in the right direction and
23 I would urge all of us, because this doesn't
5034
1 cost us anything. In fact, it's going to save
2 us money. It will save us money if we're
3 eliminating the incentives for agencies to go
4 out and create business. We might not need some
5 of the people in those agencies. This could
6 save money. It's not going to cost us money.
7 So I would urge all of us to
8 support this. Just because it's not your idea
9 doesn't mean it's not a good idea, and we're, on
10 both sides of the aisle, guilty of that
11 fallacy.
12 You know, it's a good idea. I
13 think it should be supported by everyone and
14 once again, it will send a message that the
15 business -- to the business community that we're
16 trying up here to do something to make things
17 better. When you're making your decisions now,
18 as to whether to stay here or expand, look to
19 the Senate today and realize that we're trying
20 to turn the corner rather than saying it's not
21 intelligent; it's not a good idea, with no basis
22 behind it.
23 So I urge everyone to unanimously
5035
1 support this legislation, to send a strong
2 message to the other body of this government for
3 which you have a majority on the other side of
4 the aisle, because they're going to have to pass
5 on this as well.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
7 Wright.
8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President,
9 I'd like to speak to the issues of regulatory
10 reform that are contained in this bill. In my
11 district, I don't have the luxury of large
12 financial institutions or real estate
13 institutions or the banking community or the
14 insurance community.
15 I have manufacturing, and I have
16 agriculture and when I have the opportunity to
17 speak with individuals in that manufacturing
18 community and the paper industry, they tell me
19 regulation is one of their primary concerns of
20 doing business in this state, and then when I
21 talk to the small dairy farmer, he tells me the
22 same thing, regulations are their concern in
23 terms of doing business and maintaining their
5036
1 farms in this -- in this state, and I came to
2 this Legislature with that as an item on my
3 agenda, to address and to deal with, and I tried
4 to do that in the course of the last five months
5 and I was encouraged to hear the Governor in his
6 State of the State message speak to the need for
7 regulatory reform.
8 I, in turn, have been encouraged
9 throughout the legislative session with the
10 cooperation and assistance of my Assembly
11 counterpart in developing legislation that would
12 change the regulatory process and diminish the
13 impact of regulations on businesses as well as
14 our local governments.
15 So I think, in fact we believe,
16 there is a consensus among both our houses and
17 within the administration that we need to
18 address regulatory reform. This bill does it.
19 We're not talking as was implied earlier about
20 totally deregulating things. There are some who
21 may advocate that. I've never advocated that on
22 this floor.
23 What we're talking about is
5037
1 reducing over-regulation. The pendulum has
2 swung too far. We need to achieve balance. We
3 need to restore balance to the regulatory rule
4 making process. This bill speaks to that
5 specifically. It has specific provisions that
6 will restore that balance. To ensure that
7 there's fairness, to ensure that there's
8 impartiality, that it's not simply the agencies
9 determining the rules, serving as the umpire,
10 making all the decisions but the regulated
11 communities, be they manufacturing, be they
12 local governments, be they the dairy farmers,
13 have the means to participate, and we have a
14 more level playing field as we develop those
15 regulatory controls, because if you look at this
16 bill, you'll see specific examples of how we can
17 open up that process to better participation.
18 We have a provision that talks
19 about changing the adjudication of contract
20 disputes, so it's not the agency negotiating the
21 contract, it's not the same agency overseeing
22 the contract. It's not the same agency hearing
23 the disputes, and it's not the same agency
5038
1 making the decision and then hearing appeal. In
2 fact, we take it outside and we use the standard
3 business technique of using the American
4 Arbitration Association. So there's an
5 impartiality, a fairness. The state's interests
6 are protected, but so is our business community.
7 We have a provision that provides
8 for negotiated rulemaking, as Senator Bruno
9 spoke to. Again, that process does not diminish
10 the interest of the state. It simply opens the
11 doors. It allows those individuals who are
12 going to be regulated to participate. It allows
13 those individuals who are going to incur the
14 costs of those additional regulations to
15 participate. It provides some protection and
16 some balance. It does not deregulate. It
17 reduces the overregulations. It opens the door.
18 It provides balance.
19 And the third provision does the
20 same as the establishment of the independent
21 hearing examiners. Anyone who has been involved
22 in an administrative hearing realizes that that
23 hearing examiner serves in the agency, serves
5039
1 that commissioner. This sets up again
2 independence. It does not diminish the process,
3 does not change the process, does not in any
4 fashion compromise the state's interest. It
5 merely says there will be an independent and
6 impartial hearing examiner to oversee these
7 issues.
8 And we even allow that that
9 should be a demonstration, that we'll evaluate
10 that and we'll come back and we'll fine tune it
11 if it needs it. But we all recognize, and even
12 the Governor acknowledges, there is the
13 appearance of bias and, therefore, it needs to
14 be remedied and addressed.
15 Those are but three examples. I
16 won't belabor the balance of the bill. There
17 are numerous other examples. But those three
18 speak to restoring the balance in the state,
19 reducing the overregulation, opening the doors
20 so that individuals can participate in the
21 process, not at the expense of the state, but at
22 the expense of the public interest, but clearly
23 in the public's interest to open those doors.
5040
1 I think if we accomplish that, we
2 will not only be addressing the needs of our
3 business community and our local governments.
4 We will be addressing the needs of the people in
5 this state.
6 Thank you, Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Espada.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes, Mr.
10 President. Will Senator Bruno yield for a
11 question, please?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Bruno, will you yield?
14 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes.
15 SENATOR ESPADA: There is a
16 provision in this legislative bill that proposes
17 or designates fifteen additional economic
18 development zones. The question would be, where
19 and/or by what criteria would these zones be
20 developed and designated?
21 SENATOR BRUNO: As you know, we
22 have a whole process that presently takes place
23 creating the economic development zones, and the
5041
1 objective is to help depressed, suppressed areas
2 in the state to revitalize their economy.
3 So all we're really doing is
4 expanding an existing program that has worked
5 well in other areas of the state, just expanding
6 it to other distressed areas.
7 That criteria can be established
8 along the same lines that exist, or it will be
9 subject to negotiation as we implement
10 specifically the legislation to fund and do
11 whatever is necessary. So it simply expands an
12 existing program that in some areas has worked
13 well to create jobs.
14 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President.
15 On the bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
17 bill. Senator Espada.
18 SENATOR ESPADA: I think it a
19 unique advantage that before coming to the state
20 Senate and entering governmental life that I did
21 have a small business, that -- or two in my
22 lifetime that has dealt with state government,
23 with city government, and regulations that seek
5042
1 to regulate those businesses.
2 I have been involved in human
3 service delivery and have interfaced with
4 governmental agencies both on a statewide basis
5 and on a local basis.
6 And I know it's not popular to
7 break rank. Indeed, it's not the kind of thing
8 I like to do, but the fact of the matter is that
9 I recognize that there is a solid line of
10 demarcation that sometimes prohibits some good
11 things from happening.
12 This package, as it were, does
13 have some provisions that ordinarily if they
14 stood on their own I could not support. Does
15 this package promote economic recovery? I don't
16 know. Is it worth a chance? You betcha. It has
17 to be given a chance. We have to, as we say in
18 the street, move off the dime, get on with
19 something, initiate something, and then we can
20 judge the results.
21 I find in reading this, and I
22 have, there is some things I don't quite
23 understand. There's some problems. Like I
5043
1 would have liked some specificity and
2 designation of certain zones. I would have
3 liked to not go for something that would not
4 give state agencies the right, on occasion, on a
5 rare occasion I would argue, to exceed federal
6 requirements.
7 But as a whole, if we are to make
8 some progress, I would argue that on the whole,
9 regulatory reform, the burdensome hand of
10 government would bring relief to business and to
11 others that do business with this state.
12 I would support this particular
13 legislative piece.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Saland.
16 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr.
17 President.
18 A bit earlier, I heard Senator
19 Leichter in some of his comments, and I heard
20 him make reference to the fact that what we need
21 here in New York is the ability, I believe he
22 stated, in part, to have an educated work force.
23 And if I can somehow or another
5044
1 narrow this down somewhat selfishly to the area
2 that I represent in the mid-Hudson, Dutchess
3 County and Columbia County, I can assure you
4 that there is no area that has a greater
5 educated, skilled work force anywhere within
6 this state or, for that matter, anywhere within
7 the nation.
8 We find ourselves, however,
9 plagued, plagued now by recent events,
10 principally the downsizing of IBM which has seen
11 the loss of some 6,000 jobs in my immediate
12 area, a very significant loss of jobs in a
13 relatively short period of time. Needless to
14 say, that's at the very least destabilizing.
15 It's extraordinarily traumatic.
16 I don't think we ought to be
17 wringing our hands in despair and waiting for
18 the federal government to do something. Because
19 what we have seen basically down in Washington,
20 at least most recently, is the inability to act,
21 in effect the kind of a paralysis that can only
22 ensure a deeper and more troublesome economy.
23 I think we have to take it upon
5045
1 ourselves, notwithstanding the fact that we're
2 one of 50 states, to do the best we can for our
3 state with what it is that we have the ability
4 to work with. Within the confines of our
5 borders, we have to do something to become more
6 competitive.
7 I, for one, would certainly find
8 it impossible under any standard not to be
9 supportive of this omnibus measure, a measure
10 which includes a tremendous amount of regulatory
11 relief, a measure which by any standard
12 certainly would make New York more competitive.
13 And, really, that's what we're talking about is
14 making New York more competitive.
15 We don't have the ability to
16 serve as a national legislature. We're here as
17 a state legislature, part of the state
18 Legislature. Our duty, our obligation is to try
19 and make our state more competitive, for a very
20 simple reason. Competition is what lures jobs.
21 Competition is what makes our people have bread
22 on their table, money in their pocket, money
23 that they spend that, in turn, winds up filling
5046
1 the coffers of this state by way of revenue.
2 To ignore regulatory relief, to
3 bad mouth regulatory relief is sheer folly. It
4 bears no relationship to reality and borders on
5 sheer lunacy. What is wrong with cutting down
6 the types of paperwork that we have to contend
7 with and our businesses have to contend with?
8 What is wrong with establishing independent
9 hearing officers? What is wrong with giving the
10 businesses that you wish to regulate greater say
11 in the process by which they are being
12 regulated?
13 It makes sense. We have moved
14 ourselves out of the market. We have done it to
15 ourselves. We have let it happen. We're now
16 trying to do a correction here. There's no
17 reason why we shouldn't all embrace this
18 correction.
19 Let's not wait for Washington.
20 Let's not wait for the sky to fall. Let's not
21 be a bunch of Chicken Littles. Let's try and
22 grab opportunity from what is a bad situation
23 and make the best of it.
5047
1 This bill and the bill that we
2 did a bit earlier, which contained a tax cut
3 package, certainly at the very least the cut in
4 the corporate franchise tax, sends a marvelous
5 message to the business community that we're
6 serious. This, in turn, delivers that message
7 even more forcefully, and I think is an enormous
8 step in the right direction, in the direction of
9 competition, economic development and the
10 restoration of New York's economy.
11 Thank you, Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
13 the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 130.
15 This act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
17 the roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 61.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
21 bill is passed unanimously.
22 (Laughter. )
23 Senator Present, what's your
5048
1 pleasure?
2 Yes, Senator Galiber. Why do you
3 rise?
4 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President,
5 can I have unanimous consent to be voted in the
6 negative on 1106.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
8 objection.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: May I have
12 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
13 on Calendar 1105. Was it 1105 we just did?
14 1105, yes.
15 SENATOR GOLD: 1105, yes. Are
16 you in the negative?
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Negatives?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Okay.
20 Shall we reopen the roll, Senator Present?
21 What's your pleasure?
22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
23 I think that it would be easier.
5049
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Just a
2 moment. I can not hear the -
3 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
4 I think it would be easier or either according
5 to those -
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Just a
7 moment. I cannot hear.
8 Senator Present. Do you wish to
9 reopen the roll?
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Reopen the
11 roll, yes.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Those in the
13 negative.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
15 Negatives raise their hand. 1105. This is the
16 bill that just passed.
17 Senator Bruno explained Senator
18 Marino's bill, which is 1105. It just passed.
19 It passed unanimously a moment ago.
20 (Laughter)
21 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
22 the negative on Calendar Number 1105 are
23 Senators Connor, Galiber, Gold, Leichter,
5050
1 Ohrenstein and Stavisky. Ayes 55, nays 6.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 bill is passed.
4 Senator Levy.
5 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, Mr.
6 President. I would like to remove the sponsor
7 stars from Calendars 765, 890, and 892.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
9 stars are removed at the request of the sponsor.
10 Senator Hoffmann.
11 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr.
12 President. I would like to request unanimous
13 consent to be recorded in the negative on
14 Calendar Number 677.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 677,
16 Senator Hoffmann will be in the negative.
17 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Are
20 there any other housekeeping orders?
21 (There was no response. )
22 Senator Present.
23 SENATOR PRESENT: I believe you
5051
1 have a message from the Governor at the desk.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We do
3 have a message from the Governor.
4 Secretary will read it,
5 concerning Senator Johnson's bill.
6 THE SECRETARY: The Governor
7 returned without executive approval Senate Bill
8 Number 1326, Veto Number 5, by Senator Johnson,
9 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
10 Law, in relation to water quality standards in
11 Long Island Sound.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
13 bill will be laid aside and put on the table.
14 Senator Present.
15 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
16 May I ask that we stand at ease for a few
17 moments.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We will
19 stand at ease.
20 SENATOR LEVY: Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Levy.
23 SENATOR LEVY: Mr. President, I
5052
1 inadvertently removed the star from 765. There
2 is no home rule message on it.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Leave
4 the star on 765 at the request of the sponsor.
5 The bill is starred.
6 (Whereupon, at 7:38 p.m., Senate
7 was at ease. )
8 (Whereupon, at 7:59 p.m., Senate
9 reconvened. )
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senate
11 will come to order.
12 Senator Present.
13 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
14 we're going to continue to stand at ease. I
15 would like all the members to call the Senate
16 operator at 10:00 o'clock, at which time
17 hopefully you will be advised as to what holds
18 for the future.
19 Before we go into complete
20 recess, I think Senator DeFrancisco has
21 something he would like to say.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
23 DeFrancisco.
5053
1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Request
2 unanimous consent to vote in the negative on
3 677.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 677,
5 Senator DeFrancisco will be in the negative.
6 SENATOR MEGA: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Mega.
9 SENATOR MEGA: Mr. President, may
10 I star one of my bills?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: If we
12 can get some order you can. Could I ask that
13 the conversations be held down for a moment.
14 Senator Mega.
15 SENATOR MEGA: Page 18, would you
16 place a sponsor star on Calendar 824, Senate
17 Print 3769-A.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: We got
19 it.
20 SENATOR MEGA: Thank you.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
22 bill is starred.
23 Senator Present.
5054
1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
2 would you repeat what I said.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I will.
4 SENATOR PRESENT: We'll continue
5 to stand at ease.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 Senate is not adjourned. The Senate will be
8 standing at ease. Check with the Senate
9 operator at 10:00 o'clock tonight to find out
10 what our orders are.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Good.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Be
13 ready to return. The Senate will stand at ease.
14 (A Rules Committee meeting was
15 announced. )
16 (Whereupon, at 8:00 p.m., Senate
17 was at ease. )
18 (Whereupon, at 11:54 p.m., Senate
19 reconvened. )
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
21 Senators will please take their seats.
22 Senator Marino.
23 SENATOR MARINO: Mr. President.
5055
1 Would you return to reports of standing
2 committees, please.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
4 Secretary will read the report of the standing
5 Committee on Rules.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino,
7 from the Committee on rules, reports the
8 following bill directly for third reading.
9 Senate Bill Number 5923, by the
10 Committee on Rules, an act to amend Chapter 576
11 of the Laws of 1974, amending the Emergency
12 Housing Rent Control Law.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
14 objection, the bill is reported to third
15 reading.
16 SENATOR MARINO: Call up 1153
17 please, Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
19 Secretary will read 1153.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1153. Senator Marino moves to discharge the
22 Committee on Rules from Assembly Bill Number
23 8516 and substitute it for the identical
5056
1 Calendar Number 1153.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
3 Substitution is ordered.
4 SENATOR MARINO: Is there a
5 message at the desk, Mr. President?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
7 is a message at the desk, Senator.
8 SENATOR MARINO: I move we accept
9 it.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All in
11 favor of accepting the message, say aye.
12 (Response of "Aye.")
13 Those opposed, nay.
14 (There was no response. )
15 The message is accepted.
16 SENATOR MARINO: Mr. President.
17 I have just received a call from the Speaker,
18 who said I have his personal commitment that he
19 will discuss everything having to do with
20 vacancy decontrol, luxury decontrol, the entire
21 question of rent control and rent stabilization
22 with no conditions attached.
23 On that basis, I accept the
5057
1 Speaker's word, would strongly recommend we pass
2 this legislation.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
4 the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
8 the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 61.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
12 bill is passed.
13 SENATOR MARINO: Thank you, Mr.
14 President. There being no further business I
15 move we adjourn -
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold
17 on. Move we -
18 SENATOR MARINO: I move we
19 adjourn until tomorrow at 11:30.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
21 Senate stands adjourned.
22 (Whereupon, at 11:59 p.m., Senate
23 adjourned. )