Regular Session - March 24, 1994
1642
1 ALBANY, NEW YORK
2 March 24, 1994
3 12:01 p.m.
4
5
6 REGULAR SESSION
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10 SENATOR MICHAEL F. NOZZOLIO, Acting President
11 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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1643
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
3 Senate will come to order.
4 Please join me in saying the
5 Pledge of Allegiance.
6 (The assemblage repeated the
7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. )
8 Reverend Peter G. Young, from the
9 Blessed Sacrament Church in Bolton Landing, will
10 give the benediction.
11 REVEREND PETER G. YOUNG: Thank
12 you, Senator.
13 As a point of personal privilege,
14 I received a letter in yesterday's mail from
15 former Senator Thomas Laverne, and Thomas, a man
16 I spent night after night going out to dinner
17 with and being close to, did ask me if I would
18 ask the Senate to pray for him. He has, now,
19 terminal cancer; so if I could just ask you to
20 join with me in this prayer.
21 Almighty and eternal God, may
22 your grace enkindle in all of us a love for the
23 many unfortunate people whom poverty and misery
1644
1 reduce to a condition of life unworthy of human
2 beings. Arouse in the hearts of those who call
3 You "Father" a hunger and a thirst for social
4 justice and for fraternal charity in deeds and
5 in truth. Grant, O Lord, peace in our days,
6 peace to all of those souls and peace to Thomas
7 Laverne, who is with us in our prayer.
8 We ask You this now and forever.
9 Amen.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Thank
11 you, Father.
12 FATHER YOUNG: Thank you,
13 Senator, very much.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Reading of the Journal.
16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate
17 Wednesday, March 23rd. The Senate met pursuant
18 to adjournment, Senator Farley in the Chair upon
19 designation of the Temporary President. The
20 Journal of Tuesday, March 22nd, was read and
21 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Hearing no objection, the Journal stands
1645
1 approved as read.
2 Order of business: Presentation
3 of petitions.
4 Messages from the Assembly.
5 Messages from the Governor.
6 Reports of standing committees.
7 Reports of select committees.
8 Communications and reports from
9 Senate officers.
10 Motions and resolutions. Senator
11 Present.
12 SENATOR PRESENT: Would you
13 recognize Senator Daly, please.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Daly.
16 SENATOR DALY: There's a
17 resolution at the desk. Would the clerk read,
18 Mr. President, please, the entire resolution,
19 please.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
21 Secretary will read.
22 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Daly,
23 Legislative Resolution commending the Lockport
1646
1 Lady Lions basketball team upon the occasion of
2 winning the New York Public High School Athletic
3 Association Class A Title Championship.
4 WHEREAS, it is the sense of this
5 assembled body that those who give positive
6 definition to the profile and disposition of the
7 communities of the state of New York do so
8 profoundly strengthen our shared commitment to
9 the exercise of freedom;
10 Attendant to such concern and
11 fully in accord with its long-standing
12 traditions, it is the intent of this assembled
13 body to commend the Lockport Lady Lions
14 basketball team upon the occasion of winning the
15 New York Public High School Athletic Association
16 Class A Title Championship;
17 On Saturday, March 19, 1994, the
18 Lockport Lady Lions captured the New York Public
19 High School Athletic Association's Class A title
20 this past week end with a 53-50 victory over the
21 Mahopac Indians at Queensbury High School;
22 The Lady Lions have so clearly
23 endowed and yet enhanced that commitment to
1647
1 excellence in all endeavors which is the daily
2 manifestation of the student body, faculty and
3 administrative staff of Lockport High School;
4 The Lockport Lady Lions
5 basketball team, under head coach William Shaw,
6 assistant coaches Greg Bronson and Jim Owens,
7 the athletic director Robert Ames, mirror those
8 prerogatives of personal initiative and
9 accountability so paradigmatic of our American
10 manner. Team members are Seniors: Colleen
11 Cleary, Heather Hughes, Megan Pollow, Kristi
12 Amyotte, Maria Pita, Caryn Beshaw; Juniors:
13 Luciann Kelley, Kelly Stevens, Johanna Grimes,
14 Tina Henne-bohl, Summer States, Christina
15 Jenkins, Jacqueline Rohde; Sophomores: Geraldine
16 White, Kristin Jordan.
17 Through their long and sustained
18 commitment to excellence in scholastic
19 basketball, the Lockport Lady Lions have so
20 unselfishly advanced the spirit of united
21 purpose and shared concern which is the
22 unalterable manifestation of our American
23 experience;
1648
1 NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED,
2 that this legislative body pause in its
3 deliberations and most joyously commend the
4 Lockport Lady Lions basketball team upon the
5 occasion of the winning of the New York Public
6 High School Athletic Association Class A Title
7 Championship, fully confident that such
8 procedure mirrors our shared commitment to
9 preserve, to enhance and to yet effect the
10 patrimony of freedom which is our American
11 heritage; and
12 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that
13 copies of this resolution, suitably engrossed,
14 be transmitted to Dr. Russell Dever,
15 superintendent of schools, to John E. Essler,
16 principal, to Robert Ames, athletic director and
17 to William Shaw, head coach, Lockport High
18 School, Lockport, New York.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: On
20 the resolution, Senator Daly.
21 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I
22 have the distinct honor today of introducing to
23 my colleagues a group of young ladies of whom
1649
1 Niagara county is indeed very proud. I'd like
2 to point out that, in addition to their great
3 success this basketball season, their present
4 record is 26 and zero and, with the exception of
5 Senator Pataki, I'm sure all of us are very
6 happy to have them with us today, Mahopac High
7 School being located in Senator Pataki's
8 district.
9 I would like to point out that,
10 in this -- among this group of ladies who have
11 done so well on the basketball court, are ladies
12 who have also become members of the New York
13 State Scholar Athlete team, with averages of 90
14 percent or above, and I thought I would like to
15 bring that to the attention of my colleagues and
16 I'm sure you'll all join me in saying hello and
17 congratulations to a group of fine young ladies
18 along with their coach and their assistant
19 coach. It's great to have you with us.
20 Thank you, Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Thank
22 you, Senator Daly.
23 On behalf of the Senate, wish to
1650
1 welcome and congratulate the Lockport Lady Lions
2 basketball team upon the occasion of their
3 victories this season.
4 Question is on the resolution.
5 All those in favor?
6 (Response of "Aye." )
7 The resolution is carried.
8 The Calendar. Senator Present.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Take up the
10 non-controversial calendar, please.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
12 clerk will call the non-controversial calendar.
13 THE SECRETARY: On page 12,
14 Calendar Number 241, by the Assembly Committee
15 on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 7736, an act to
16 amend the Tax Law, in relation to criminal
17 liability of certain persons interested in tax
18 sales.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
20 section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
1651
1 the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
5 bill is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 265, by Senator Levy.
8 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside,
9 please, for the day.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
11 is laid aside for the day.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 298, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number 3385,
14 an act to amend the Penal Law and the Criminal
15 Procedure Law.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside,
17 please.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
19 is laid aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 365, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 950,
22 an act to amend the Family Court Act and the
23 Criminal Procedure Law.
1652
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
2 section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
6 the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
10 bill is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 372, by member of the Assembly Stringer,
13 Assembly Bill Number 9266.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside, please.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
16 is laid aside.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 400, by -
19 SENATOR DALY: Lay aside.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: 400
21 is laid aside.
22 SENATOR DALY: For the day.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: For
1653
1 the day.
2 SENATOR DALY: Lay it aside for
3 the day.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
5 is laid aside for the day.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 413, by Senator Marino, Senate -
8 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
10 is laid aside.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 417, by Senator Present, Senate Bill Number
13 3104-A, State Administrative Procedure Act and
14 the Executive Law.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
16 the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
20 the roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
1654
1 bill is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 418, by Senator Bruno.
4 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay aside for
5 the day, please.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
7 is laid aside for the day.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 419, by Senator Bruno, Senate Bill Number 6871,
10 requiring for the development of a plan and
11 schedule.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
13 the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside for
18 Senator Leichter.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
20 is laid aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 420, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number 7013.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
1655
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
2 is laid aside.
3 Senator Present.
4 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's take the
5 controversial calendar, please.
6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
8 Senator Johnson.
9 SENATOR JOHNSON: Without
10 objection, could we just return to motions and
11 resolutions? I have a resolution I'd like to
12 make concerning one of my bills.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
14 Senator Johnson on a resolution.
15 SENATOR JOHNSON: Calendar Number
16 286, on page 13, Senate Bill 4798, please put a
17 sponsor's star on that bill.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
19 is starred. Secretary will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: On page 13,
21 Calendar Number 298, by Senator Volker.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senate Bill
1656
1 Number 3385, an act to amend the Penal Law.
2 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
3 temporarily.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
5 is laid aside temporarily.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 372, by
7 member of the Assembly Stringer, Assembly Bill
8 Number 9266, Family Court Act, in relation to
9 service of temporary orders of protection.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
12 Senator Gold.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Would the
14 distinguished gentleman from Westchester yield
15 to a question?
16 SENATOR SPANO: Certainly.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
18 Senator Spano yields.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, this was
20 the subject of a veto last year, and I believe
21 you have made some amendments which take care of
22 part of the Governor's veto, but, if I'm reading
23 it correctly, it still doesn't take care of the
1657
1 criticism it contained that it was an unfunded
2 mandate. Am I correct about that?
3 SENATOR SPANO: The Governor last
4 year said it was an unfunded mandate which
5 strained police efforts, and that's why we added
6 the "unreasonable effort" at the end of the
7 amended bill which we feel goes a long way to
8 ameliorating the Governor's problem with the
9 bill.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Would Senator Lack
11 yield to a question?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Would
13 Senator Lack yield?
14 SENATOR GOLD: You want to go
15 home?
16 SENATOR LACK: Hey, if he can say
17 "ameliorate".
18 SENATOR GOLD: Last section. Oh,
19 Senator Dollinger.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would the
21 Senator yield to just one other question?
22 SENATOR SPANO: Yes.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator.
1658
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
2 Senator yields.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, who
4 will pay the cost of the services; is it still
5 going to be paid as it would if there were a
6 private process server or will there be no cost
7 associated with it at all?
8 SENATOR SPANO: Well, right now
9 the costs would be paid by the individual. Now,
10 if a process server is used, the same will apply
11 or if a police officer is used that would be the
12 mandate the Governor referred to.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But is there
14 any contingency in this bill for private -- the
15 beneficiary of this order to pay some costs for
16 the service, or is that going to be just picked
17 up by the -
18 SENATOR SPANO: No, there isn't.
19 There's nothing to preclude an individual from
20 using a private service, but, no, there are no
21 contingencies in there to pick up the cost.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill,
23 Mr. President.
1659
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
2 Senator Dollinger on the bill.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think this
4 is a bill that has many good qualities, and I'm
5 going to vote for it. I do, however, think the
6 Governor has a very good point when he talks
7 about the cost of service, and my hope would be
8 that the sponsor might look to some provision
9 that would require some payment for service by
10 the police officers. Otherwise, I can see that
11 we're going to be hiring additional police
12 officers in the city of Rochester to do nothing
13 but serve Family Court orders and orders of
14 protection, because they're voluminous. There
15 are lots of them that go out. It's going to be
16 very time-consuming, and my hope is that the
17 sponsor would look at some amendment for
18 attaching some provision for payment by the
19 private party at some point in the future.
20 Thank you.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
22 Senator Dollinger. Read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
1660
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
7 bill is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Going back to
9 Calendar Number 298, by Senator Volker, Senate
10 Bill Number 3385, an act to amend the Penal Law
11 and the Criminal Procedure Law.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Some
13 order in the house.
14 SENATOR VOLKER: I've been asked
15 for a short explanation, so I'm -
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Senator Volker.
18 SENATOR VOLKER: This is a
19 modified version of the "three and you're in" or
20 "three and you're out", whatever you want to
21 call it. But the difference, I think, is -- and
22 by the way, there are two other bills on the
23 calendar right now that are genuine "three and
1661
1 you're in, three and you're out" you might call
2 them, by other members.
3 The Governor, although we have
4 asked him for his three and you're in or out
5 bill, we have not yet seen it, although I'm told
6 by his people that we will.
7 What this bill basically does is,
8 we think there's a lot of confusion by members
9 of the press on this issue, because they really
10 don't understand it. One of the reasons, we
11 already have in New York second felony offender
12 or persistent violator statutes that already
13 provide very lengthy penalties for second felony
14 offenses. What this does, it builds on the
15 second felony offender statute, and when you
16 have a third felony in those kinds of classes,
17 the maximum term would be 25 years to life.
18 Basically it's the same term as a
19 life term now for murder. It does not -- let me
20 say it does not provide the life without parole
21 that several of the other bills do, but provides
22 an enhanced sentence of 25 years to life
23 building on the second felony offender statute
1662
1 and persistent violator statute.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
3 section.
4 SENATOR GALIBER: Oh, no.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
6 Senator Galiber.
7 SENATOR GALIBER: Don't want to
8 confuse a short explanation. That was just for
9 his benefit, not mine.
10 Senator, I still can't give you
11 my back. Senator, you have been involved in law
12 enforcement for so many years now, and you keep
13 telling us what you would like to show, and I
14 say that respectfully. You know that back some
15 years ago, we had the fourth offender category;
16 that's when we revised things in 1965 or '67, we
17 through in this persistent category.
18 So now we have a situation where
19 there is a predicate felon, where there is ab
20 solutely no discretion at all by the sentencing
21 judge. We have gotten to the point where we are
22 seriously, at least some of us, talking in terms
23 of changing the persistent -- the predicate
1663
1 felony category. In fact, the Governor had a
2 piece of legislation last year, and he had
3 indicated to us or sent the bill up to us. It
4 didn't get too far.
5 In between the resentencing
6 structure in 1967 and up to the present day, we
7 have a number of mandated sentences that we
8 never had before and we have created a category
9 of violent offender, felony, PFO category, which
10 were not there early on. All this is with a
11 view toward getting tough on crime, and it's
12 been clear to us by statistics that what we have
13 done is not to deter anyone and that our
14 mandatory sentences have not served us as we
15 would like to have seen them serve us, and that
16 includes myself.
17 Therefore, to add another layer
18 onto something which is "three strikes and
19 you're out" because in an election year it
20 sounds like a baseball kind of thing and
21 everybody has captured this phrase, if you will,
22 and then we as responsible legislators go about
23 the business of trying to fit in a piece of
1664
1 legislation to the "three strikes and you're
2 out" or in.
3 Senator, I think you will agree
4 with me that what we have on the books today
5 certainly has served us well and will continue
6 to do so. The categories that you mentioned, in
7 each instance we can find a possibility of 25
8 years to life. The persistent category and the
9 person that we are talking about are young folks
10 historically, and none of this is to be
11 interpreted as being soft on crime. It's just
12 that we don't need it, and we find that crimes
13 that are categorized in the major felony
14 category of offenses range from minor robberies
15 -- and you say "minor robberies," Senator, how
16 can it be a minor robbery -- pick-pocketing,
17 pushing someone, the slightest force at all,
18 could very well be in that category.
19 Should they be punished? Yes.
20 Should they be punished a second time? No
21 question about it. Should they go to life
22 imprisonment for the rest of their life? No.
23 Without parole? Not in your bill, Senator. I'm
1665
1 not sure. I think the judge and the district
2 attorney, they have that opportunity under the
3 law as it is today.
4 This may satisfy a political
5 year. It may satisfy filling in a gap to
6 justify that expression "three strikes and
7 you're in" or out, whether it comes from a
8 federal -- the federal government or state
9 government. The greatest impact, and you've
10 heard all of these arguments mainly because
11 they're in the memos in opposition and memos in
12 favor, and what we're talking about is a factor
13 later on down the line where those persons
14 historically end up by statistics it's proven
15 that the younger folks are the ones who get
16 themselves involved in these kinds of incidents
17 which we are concerned about on a predicate
18 felon category, and those felonies can be minor
19 felonies, get them to the point where they're
20 persistent as long as they come in that
21 category, and I've said over and over and over
22 again, because they are so minor in some
23 instances that we find the persons who would
1666
1 actually be impacted on, and I think, Senator
2 Daly -- Senator Volker, to your credit, you have
3 told us that you assume about 300 people
4 possibly, or it's been predicted very small
5 amount of people who are being put into our
6 institutions and that this piece of legislation
7 would work with that kind of numbers; and I say
8 no.
9 I think there's -- under the
10 present law, that we can do the same thing
11 without adding another layer. And then we've
12 always had this argument, those of us who come
13 from a different ethnic base. We haven't
14 figured out, there's got to be something wrong
15 in most of our prisons. 75 percent of our
16 prison population comes from areas of the urban
17 centers that impact on a ratio of minorities,
18 Hispanics and blacks, Latinos; disproportionate
19 to the number is the inference that we commit
20 more crime than others. That's not so.
21 What happens in our institutional
22 racism, which is still part of this system of
23 ours until we deal with it, that the sentencing
1667
1 process is just a part of it, if you will, in
2 those categories, a factor to be taken into
3 consideration.
4 So, Senator, those long-time -
5 and I'd like to close on this note, those
6 long-timers in our institutions, whether they're
7 in the persistent predicate felony category or
8 whether they have committed crimes and been
9 there for a long while, are the backbone of our
10 institutions. They're the ones who, when they
11 finally do get out, the recidivism rate is
12 slight. They run the institution.
13 We're having someone come in
14 hopefully from, I think, Cleveland or one of the
15 other states where they have a program to deal
16 with alternatives to incarcerating the folks
17 that are in there now, the older person, to see
18 whether or not we're spending too much money in
19 the category of persons who cannot even step
20 over a barbed wire, nevertheless climb over it.
21 So what this bill does is add
22 another layer, another possibility which is
23 really not needed. The judge is, at the present
1668
1 time, given the flexibility but, unfortunately,
2 we have gotten to the point where we no longer
3 trust judges, and that's not really fair or
4 justifiable because the opportunity -- giving
5 the judge an opportunity in any one of these
6 categories where the serious crimes are
7 concerned and the memo would have robberies, you
8 say, and rape we say, and the violence that
9 occurs in the street. Those things sound
10 horrible to us and they are, in fact, horrible,
11 but giving the discretion to the judge if we do
12 that, they can send that person to jail the
13 second go-round with the possibility.
14 The violence, of course, is a
15 subject matter for another discussion. Most of
16 you know my position, why we have this violence
17 in the streets. It has to do with one thing,
18 one thing alone, and that's the question of
19 drugs in the streets of our great cities. If we
20 would solve that problem, we wouldn't have all
21 the violence that we see in the last five or ten
22 years. We wouldn't have the guns on the streets
23 that create the violence. Overnight, we would
1669
1 take profits out of drugs. We would find, very
2 frankly, that most of or a large portion of
3 those guns would be off the street.
4 I ran off on a tangent because of
5 the causal factor for why and partially a moti
6 vator brings this kind ever legislation to the
7 floor. I think we can accomplish, Senator
8 Volker, what we want to accomplish and I say we,
9 by the way, assume you want to accomplish with
10 what we have on the books now. Consistent
11 category, once it's established, will do the
12 same thing that this bill will do.
13 So, Mr. President, I think that
14 we should vote against this bill and, if I can
15 look into the crystal ball, there's a couple on
16 the calendar and you want to debate it and
17 record it and say the same reason those bills
18 shouldn't pass, and whether they flow up from
19 the second floor or across the hall, the floor
20 here, they're inherently bad pieces of
21 legislation, not needed, would not solve a lot
22 of this, both sides of the aisle are concerned
23 with, and that is the crime that is running
1670
1 rampant in our villages, in our towns and
2 hamlets.
3 Thank you, Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
5 Senator Waldon.
6 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr.
7 President.
8 Would the sponsor yield to a
9 question?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Senator Volker yield?
12 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
14 Senator Volker yields.
15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
16 much, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator
17 Volker.
18 Senator, can you tell us which
19 class of people would be most affected by this
20 legislation? By that, I mean what age category
21 of people would be most covered?
22 SENATOR VOLKER: The most likely
23 -- the one thing I think I kind of disagree
1671
1 with Senator Galiber on, these would not be
2 young people. The reason is presumably,
3 assuming that the second felony offender and
4 persistent violator worked, they should have
5 been in jail for 15 or 20 years before they
6 commit their crime, and that's one of the
7 reasons, by the way, for the comparatively
8 restricted pool.
9 What we're saying is, of course,
10 somebody pointed out to me you could have a
11 crime in prison, I suppose, and there is some
12 latitude so that some of these people might be
13 only in prison for 10 to 12 years or so, but for
14 the most part they would be -- they would be
15 somewhat older because they would have been in
16 prison for quite a while under the second felony
17 offender and persistent violator statutes, that
18 is when they get to this category.
19 SENATOR WALDON: You're aware,
20 Senator Volker, that most serious crimes are
21 committed by those who are 15 to 24 years of age
22 in the state?
23 SENATOR VOLKER: Correct.
1672
1 SENATOR WALDON: Can you tell us,
2 if you have an idea, of how many persons each
3 year would come under the aegis of this
4 particular legislation in terms of a second and
5 persistent violent felony sentencing in New
6 York? Does history have a figure of those who
7 would qualify to be so sentenced?
8 SENATOR VOLKER: You talking
9 about under this bill on the third offense?
10 SENATOR WALDON: No, I'm talking
11 about what's current law.
12 SENATOR VOLKER: I'm really not
13 sure any more. I used to know the figures. I
14 would also point out that you are right about
15 one thing that there is more young -- younger
16 criminals that are appearing under this
17 category, although there always has been a
18 considerable body of older criminals, for the
19 simple reason that most of the people that are
20 sentenced under second felony offender probably
21 committed 8 or 10 or 15 or maybe 30 felonies,
22 and they were all worked out or whatever over
23 the years. You rarely get a case where these
1673
1 people commit several felonies. They have,
2 generally speaking, some of the people we've
3 looked at in the system have as many as 30
4 felonies that they were originally charged with
5 in some of these cases, and they were pled down
6 or they were forced out or whatever, because the
7 system rarely, especially in New York City -
8 and, Senator, keep in mind the reason we went to
9 the second felony offender and persistent
10 violator because the abysmal record in New York
11 City, very honestly, of sentencing.
12 The difference in sentencing in
13 New York City and upstate was -- I believe it
14 was like the difference of three to one. In
15 other words, the same person, same charge, was
16 sentenced three times what they were sentenced
17 in New York City. That was many years ago when
18 we changed the law.
19 So I think -- I really don't know
20 the exact amount, and it would be hard to give
21 it to you. I will say this to you: Given the
22 precipitous drop in arrests in New York City
23 over the last three, four years, it has dropped
1674
1 dramatically and because now we are getting as
2 many parole violators in this system now as new
3 inmates. I think -- believe that's the first
4 time that's happened in any of our memories
5 since the '80s.
6 SENATOR WALDON: May I continue,
7 Mr. President?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Will
9 the Senator -
10 SENATOR WALDON: A question.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
12 Senator Volker, will you yield?
13 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr.
14 President.
15 First of all, let me share with
16 you this information. According to the
17 Department of Corrections in New York State
18 under the proposed legislation, "three strikes
19 and you're in", we would have about 300
20 offenders so sentenced each year. Isn't there
21 law on the books, now in effect, which
22 accomplishes what you're trying to do?
23 SENATOR VOLKER: No, there really
1675
1 isn't because the second felony offender and
2 persistent violator statutes really don't cover
3 this kind of a situation. This would, in
4 effect, escalate the sentence for people who,
5 clearly, if they had committed the kinds of
6 offenses that were needed to get them
7 incarcerated under the original statute have to
8 be considered to be pretty -- most likely pretty
9 dangerous people, because they would have been
10 long-termers to start with or reasonably
11 long-termers and now commit a serious crime
12 again, so this is not just your ordinary -- your
13 ordinary criminals.
14 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
15 much, Senator Volker.
16 Mr. President, on the bill.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
18 Senator Waldon on the bill.
19 SENATOR WALDON: I believe I
20 understand what Senator Volker is attempting to
21 accomplish. However, there is adequate
22 legislative capability to do that right now. In
23 fact, one can, for burglary, a "B" felony, as a
1676
1 first offense, receive as a minimum two to six
2 years as a sentence, maximum 12-1/2 to 25;
3 second offense 6 to 12 years, maximum 12 to 25
4 and on the third offense of such a crime, the
5 person has to do 10 to life or receive a
6 sentence of 10 to life or 25 to life. So, in
7 effect, it accomplishes what this bill predicts
8 it will achieve.
9 However, I'm concerned on another
10 level similar to my learned colleague, Senator
11 Galiber. There's a federal study which shows
12 something that each of you are aware of. It's a
13 1992 study by the Joint Legislative Management
14 Committee. Let me correct that. It's a
15 nationwide study by the National Judicial Center
16 which says that, despite one being arrested for
17 the same crime under similar circumstances, if
18 the person be black, he is subject to be more
19 severely prosecuted and sentenced in 21 percent
20 of the time above those who are white. For my
21 Hispanic brothers, it is 28 percent of the
22 time.
23 This is even more shocking that
1677
1 they will receive a stiffer sentence than whites
2 who have also committed the same crime, and my
3 theory that we are warehousing people now in our
4 prison system and we will begin to warehouse
5 geriatric persons under this legislation with
6 another mandatory minimum, is what this really
7 is.
8 My concern is what happens to
9 these people who are disproportionately
10 represented from my community when they have
11 sicknesses and illnesses in their twilight
12 years. I'm not condoning criminal behavior. My
13 concern is, are we spinning our wheels in the
14 wrong direction?
15 We waste a lot of energy here.
16 Maybe it is not wasted; maybe that's an improper
17 term. We spend a lot of energy here trying to
18 determine better and more effective ways to put
19 people away. I think that it is time that we
20 begin to spend our energy finding better and
21 more effective ways to prepare children before
22 they even reach school so that the options to
23 them down the road will not be a life of crime.
1678
1 I think that we should be spending more time and
2 energy ensuring that schools have adequate
3 after-school programs and recreational programs
4 so that healthy children will not opt for the
5 "pusher" man.
6 I think that the laws on the
7 books now are far more than adequate, will
8 accomplish all that Senator Volker wants to do
9 and will, if we place this piece of legislation
10 on the books, will interfere more with whatever
11 limited judicial discretion is left. I oppose
12 in any form or fashion limiting judicial
13 discretion. I think that's something that the
14 state has done far too much and, as a result of
15 all of these concerns, Mr. President, when you
16 call the roll, I will have to vote in the
17 negative.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Senator Volker.
20 SENATOR VOLKER: Very quickly, if
21 I might just answer, Franz, because I don't want
22 my silence to -- I, frankly, feel a little
23 uncomfortable getting into some of the race
1679
1 issues. But, Senator, let me point out to you,
2 that study does not -- is not New York. The
3 study on disproportionate minorities was the
4 United States of America. That is not New
5 York. I don't know of any study that I've ever
6 seen that showed disproportionately in New York
7 State prisons. I am not aware of it, and I
8 don't think there is any.
9 Secondly, the only thing I would
10 correct you is, I don't know of any other
11 sentence other than murder that's 25 years to
12 life. In fact, this bill actually came from the
13 Office of Court Administration, and apparently
14 they, along with some other in the
15 administration, looked into this issue and
16 that's what the maximum penalty that we have in
17 this state at present is obviously 25 years to
18 life for murder.
19 What really this is doing is,
20 this is taking the third felony offender and
21 giving it a sentence that I'm told that,
22 although you could total up certainly as much
23 because obviously if it's 15 years to life, the
1680
1 fellow could spend a long time in the prison
2 system, but the minimum sentence under this
3 statute would be greater than any other minimum
4 statute affordable under the system except for
5 the crime of murder. So I think that's the
6 basic difference.
7 Let me just say that, in -- in
8 finishing up by saying this, let me point out to
9 you something about minorities and prisons. The
10 vast, vast majority of those crimes committed by
11 minorities are committed against minorities. In
12 fact, there are very few, comparatively -- as we
13 know, most crimes that are committed, contrary
14 to even some of these fallacious beliefs, are
15 committed by people of the same race and same
16 creed even in many cases; in other words, whites
17 on whites, blacks on black, and so forth. The
18 vast majority of them is that.
19 So that the one point I would try
20 to make out to you, and I think it's something
21 that we should never forget, is that although
22 minorities certainly are disproportionately in
23 our prison system, minorities also dispropor
1681
1 tionately are victims of violent crime.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
3 Senator Leichter.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
5 it seems sort of like a listless session and,
6 frankly, as I look around, I don't see so many
7 members here or that much attention. I think
8 that's unfortunate, because this is really a
9 very significant, important bill, and I do hope
10 that everybody heard very clearly and very
11 carefully what I think was the very important
12 reasons set forth against this bill by our
13 colleagues, Senator Galiber and Senator Waldon.
14 I just want to point to this one
15 fact, and that is that, since I've been here in
16 this Legislature and particularly in the last
17 ten years or so, we have increased penalties for
18 so many crimes; we even created new crimes.
19 We've seen the prison population go from where
20 it was about 15,000 some 10, 15 years ago where
21 it's now over 60,000 in state institutions and
22 yet, we all know that the problem of crime in
23 our society is worse than ever.
1682
1 I don't know at what point we're
2 going to say, Wait a second, maybe what we're
3 doing isn't working, doesn't make sense, when
4 people are going to say, Hey, let's listen to
5 Senator Galiber. Let's listen to Senator
6 Waldon, people, by the way, who come from
7 communities where they know what it is to live
8 with crime, and I don't think anybody is more
9 concerned about this issue than these two
10 colleagues of ours and when are we going to say
11 we need a new approach?
12 And yet, session after session,
13 you come here and barely a week passes that
14 there isn't a bill that increases penalties.
15 It's as if we had sort of a mindless rigid
16 commitment to a penal approach irrespective of
17 whether it works or not. Certainly nobody can
18 argue and say, Oh, but look, we've made this a
19 safer society. It isn't a safer society. It's
20 true that, in the last year or so, crime has
21 somewhat declined in New York City, crime that
22 we're talking about, violent crime and so on,
23 but I think that there are other reasons for the
1683
1 community policing and other approaches.
2 But in addition, if you take a
3 look at who you're reaching, and I think Senator
4 Waldon very effectively pointed out that the
5 person that we need to be concerned about are
6 those young people prone to violence and they're
7 not reached by this bill. All we're doing is
8 putting in jail for long periods people who are
9 so elderly and probably will become so infirm
10 that they're absolutely no threat to society.
11 The only threat they're to is to the taxpayers
12 as they linger in jail at $25,000 a year. It
13 just makes no sense. May be good politics, and
14 I'm sorry that the Governor of my party and the
15 president of my party have embraced this "three
16 strikes you're out" or "three strikes you're
17 in", a little semantical difference between
18 them, but the basic approach is still the same
19 and I think what the people of this state and
20 the people of the country want us to do is to
21 deal with the level of violence, to create safer
22 communities. Granted, they're in favor of these
23 bills because of the belief that this is going
1684
1 to do it. I think we know better. I think the
2 statistics show that this sort of policy is
3 doomed to failure.
4 I just finally want to add
5 something that Senator Waldon pointed out, and
6 that is mandatory sentences can create such
7 injustices and to deny judges the ability to
8 take a look at the individual in the context of
9 his acts and to make some decisions, that to my
10 mind has been one of the important factors of a
11 truly just criminal justice system, and it's
12 interesting that a number of federal judges have
13 -- those who are in senior status and in a
14 position to do so, have refused to take drug
15 cases because they are so limited under the new
16 federal sentencing guidelines of exercising what
17 they feel is proper and fair discretion.
18 So in this respect too, this bill
19 and this approach just robs the judicial system
20 of the ability of dealing effectively, but also
21 dealing justly with persons who have committed
22 crimes. All of us obviously are against crime.
23 There's nobody here who is for crime or wants to
1685
1 get up and say crime is good. All of us are
2 concerned about it. All of us want to deal with
3 it, but I just implore you to take a look at
4 other alternatives than just the continuous
5 penal approach and, by the way, we made it very
6 clear that these people who commit felonies -
7 felonies -- must be punished. Many must be sent
8 to jail, many must be sent to jail for a long
9 time, but what we're saying is that to require,
10 in every instance, irrespective of the age of
11 the individual, the circumstance of the crime,
12 that that penalty must be 25 years to life or if
13 the Governor ever comes out with his bill that
14 it will be life without parole, just makes no
15 sense whatsoever.
16 It's not going to create for a
17 safer society. It may create better campaign
18 slogans, but not a safer society.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Senator Gold.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
22 President. Would Senator Volker yield?
23 First of -
1686
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
2 Senator yields.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, and you'll
4 excuse me if I don't look at you but I keep
5 saying the microphone is here.
6 Senator, you indicated that there
7 were other bills in this area.
8 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
9 SENATOR GOLD: And I was
10 wondering if you could tell us what -- what is,
11 for example, the difference between your bill
12 and the Governor's bill or some other bills.
13 Why is your version a better one and why are we
14 doing this now rather than negotiating?
15 SENATOR VOLKER: As I think,
16 Senator, since you're aware, I'm not really
17 aware of what the Governor's bill is. We
18 haven't ever gotten it. If you remember, when
19 we had a meeting here about two weeks ago, maybe
20 it's two or three weeks ago, I had previous to
21 that held even reporting any of these bills out
22 and sent a letter to the Governor and suggested
23 that we would wait for the Governor's bill if he
1687
1 would contact us. If he told us, if he wanted
2 us to wait, we would wait. Frankly, I didn't
3 get a response to that, although I have been
4 told by some of the staff people that there will
5 be a bill later on this session. But, very
6 honestly, we have not seen the bill.
7 The other two bills that are on
8 the calendar, one by Senator Holland and the
9 other by Senator Saland, there are several
10 nuances to them, but one of the biggest
11 differences is that both of them have, I
12 believe, life without parole as the -- as the
13 ultimate sentence, rather than 25 years to life
14 as this bill does.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Would the Senator
16 yield to a question?
17 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Senator -- Senator yields.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, we have
21 -- we have a process. There's a legislative
22 process, and very often when legislation which
23 is more than -- than just technical or -- or I
1688
1 hate to use the word "minor" but minor -- I'll
2 use the word -- we have a process and we have
3 hearings on legislation.
4 Wouldn't this bill, Senator, or
5 this subject generally be an appropriate one
6 since it's still early in the session for a
7 hearing where people could bring forth the
8 information and arguments, as Senator Waldon and
9 Senator Galiber, some of the statistical
10 information, we could have some of the people
11 from the prison system themselves testify, and
12 et cetera, and then get a feel whether or not
13 your bill in each of its words is the most
14 perfect law in the area, if we were going with
15 that philosophy, or whether or not we shouldn't
16 have some of the amendments which take care of
17 some other concerns?
18 Wouldn't it be an appropriate
19 bill for a hearing?
20 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, the
21 problem with that is we just had hearings and
22 we've had them several times in the last few
23 years on the issue of second felony offender and
1689
1 on the issue of changing the statutes as regards
2 sentencing.
3 Really, what -- all we're doing
4 here is building on the second felony offender
5 statute, the persistent violator statute, the
6 so-called PFO statute, and I guess those issues
7 have certainly been articulated. I mean we have
8 the -- the people come in and say we shouldn't
9 have so many people in prison, and the Assembly
10 is now trying to make a case that all these
11 people who we thought were so violent for so
12 many years and committed all these crimes are
13 really not violent any more.
14 We're not exactly sure how that
15 happened, but that's the contention and those
16 people had their chance to air this out last
17 year, by the way, in New York City and in other
18 parts of the state, so I guess my -- my feeling
19 on that is that I know the position and we know
20 the position of a number in this house and
21 certainly there has been a lot of discussion on
22 this issue.
23 I just don't know what good
1690
1 additional hearings on this kind of issue would
2 accomplish. It's pretty obvious what we're
3 talking about here. We're talking about a
4 fairly small pool of people who have committed a
5 great number of crimes, serious crimes, when
6 they are finished with the prior law end up
7 being sentenced because they commit another
8 serious crime, to a very long period of time,
9 and I think that's pretty clear, and some people
10 think that's a good idea and others don't.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Well, if the
12 Senator will yield to a question.
13 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator continues to yield.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I make an
17 argument all the time, and I think that you as
18 an honorable man will agree that, when we use
19 the terrible labels, "liberal", "conservative",
20 and all of that, I define having a liberal
21 approach to criminal justice as meaning that you
22 respect people's rights in the system.
23 We don't violate the laws in
1691
1 gathering evidence, et cetera, et cetera, but if
2 somebody is convicted of a crime, and they're
3 supposed to go to jail, they go to jail. That
4 doesn't bother me at all, all right?
5 But Senator, the -- the penalty
6 for murder, which I have supported, life
7 imprisonment without any possibility of parole
8 would have obviously, at some point, very
9 elderly people in jail and I must tell you that
10 doesn't bother me. But, Senator, when we're
11 talking about some of the examples that are set
12 forth by the defenders and others of someone
13 whose third crime may be a purse snatching and
14 now the person is given years by the Almighty
15 and the person is 78 years old, I mean maybe a
16 law like yours is a good idea, but there should
17 be an escape clause past age 80 or something.
18 I don't know, but those ideas, I
19 think, could be talked out and worked out and
20 that a hearing might, in fact, be significant
21 when you're talking about, you know, this kind
22 of a change in the law.
23 SENATOR VOLKER: The Defenders
1692
1 Association should really be ashamed of
2 themselves. They know very well the only way
3 that a purse snatching could possibly be hooked
4 under this bill would be if you use a club or
5 something of that nature or a weapon as part of
6 the purse snatching. Purse snatches are not, by
7 their nature, felonies to start with unless, of
8 course, you assault someone or something of that
9 nature.
10 One of the things, I think,
11 that's really -
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
13 Senator Galiber, why do you rise?
14 SENATOR GALIBER: Would you yield
15 for a question?
16 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
18 Senator Volker continues to yield.
19 SENATOR GALIBER: Isn't it a fact
20 that -
21 SENATOR GOLD: So do I to my
22 distinguished colleague.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
1693
1 Senator Gold does as well.
2 SENATOR GALIBER: Isn't it a fact
3 that the difference between a grand larceny and
4 a robbery is whether a woman has a pocketbook
5 under her arm or a strap and force is used to
6 snap just the band which makes it a robbery as
7 opposed to a larceny?
8 SENATOR VOLKER: That's very
9 questionable, Senator.
10 SENATOR GALIBER: Questionable?
11 SENATOR VOLKER: And I'll be very
12 honest, but the question that any D. A. in New
13 York City would ever indict anybody under that
14 is virtually nil.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
16 Senator Tully, why do you rise?
17 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President,
18 will Senator Volker yield to a question from the
19 other side, allow me to ask a question?
20 SENATOR GOLD: You mean will the
21 Senator -
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Senator Gold, you are actually the one who has
1694
1 the floor; you yielded to Senator Galiber.
2 Senator Gold has the floor.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Well, I certainly
4 would not mind interrupting for my distinguished
5 colleague.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
7 Senator Tully.
8 SENATOR VOLKER: I was going to
9 ask the court reporter to read that back.
10 SENATOR TULLY: Isn't it the
11 fact, Senator Volker, that to have a robbery you
12 have to have force and fear?
13 SENATOR VOLKER: That's right.
14 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
16 Senator Gold.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Maybe we can
18 accomplish two things. If we read the last
19 section for Senator Farley and then continue.
20 Senator Volker yield to another
21 question?
22 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
1695
1 Senator Volker yield? Senator Volker continues
2 to yield.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, one of
4 the reasons I always hear discussed when we
5 discuss issues like this is the individual out
6 there with a rap sheet of 30 arrests, 15
7 felonies, this, that and the other thing and,
8 Senator, I know I get upset just like you get
9 upset.
10 Matter of fact, there was one day
11 and I mentioned this before, where I was in a
12 court in New York listening to a sentencing and
13 I got up and walked out because I was ready to
14 slug the judge because I said to myself, if we
15 get all the criticism, what's in these people's
16 minds? That's not what we voted to do.
17 But Senator, again, if we had
18 some hearings on this subject and if the problem
19 is the sentencing structure, why don't we deal
20 with that as an entire matter rather than just
21 throw out a coined expression, you know, and I
22 don't blame any coined expression on you. In
23 other words, if I can expand a little more, the
1696
1 federal system which Senator Leichter referred
2 to that some federal judges doesn't like -
3 don't like, is basically a grid system. And are
4 there inequities? I guess there are, but there's
5 also inequities today if somebody can have a rap
6 sheet of 30 crimes and they're obviously not
7 being sent away. That's an inequity situation
8 also.
9 But we have had at least two
10 commissions created by two governors to study a
11 guideline sentencing system. Recommendations
12 were made and the Legislature basically ignored
13 those recommendations and didn't go for it.
14 What I'm concerned about, Senator, and this is
15 back to my question, why don't we get more into
16 the issue of what judges are doing with
17 sentencing on the first, second, third, fourth
18 arrest than worry about a situation where people
19 get into the 40s and 50s and now may commit a
20 third felony which is far less serious than the
21 teen-ager committing that first or second
22 situation of real violence which might be more
23 serious to the victim?
1697
1 SENATOR VOLKER: I think,
2 Senator, I guess we have a basic disagreement
3 about what constitutes that third -- that third
4 arrest.
5 Senator, I think the difficulty
6 is, we are and we have had hearings over the
7 years. I don't know how many we have had over
8 the years on a number of these issues of
9 sentencing, and you're right, Senator, I went
10 through the guideline hearings. I was part of
11 them, both as chairman of the committee and
12 before that, and I think you're well aware, I
13 know you're well aware of the problems that we
14 all ran into with those, and there was -- and
15 you don't like the word "liberal" and
16 "conservative" and I don't either. Some people
17 say I'm a big liberal in some ways. You know
18 the definition of procedural liberal is you give
19 the person every chance to prove the case and
20 then you throw the book at him. That's what Joe
21 Pisani used to say was a procedural liberal, but
22 what the reports did say, they did two things,
23 one is you got to have absolutely consistent
1698
1 sentencing which means that every time a person
2 was sentenced, you had virtually the same
3 sentence for everybody in the state and
4 virtually nobody wanted that, or you had the
5 ultimate flexibility, so much flexibility, in
6 fact, that the other side didn't want that.
7 Even with some guidelines, the other side didn't
8 want that, so the problem was we were faced with
9 a situation where we could not come up with a
10 compromise that would fit the needs of all the
11 people even in this chamber, very honestly, and
12 that's honest, and I think you will agree with
13 me that that's what happened here.
14 I personally do not object to the
15 fact that we may have to start this process, I
16 think we will by the way, we'll be looking into
17 this process again, and I don't disagree with
18 that. My disagreement with you on the issue of
19 having hearings this year is that I just don't
20 think, with all the criminal justice issues that
21 are here -- and there are many, even other than
22 this issue -- that when you're talking about
23 basically 3- or 400 people and on an issue that
1699
1 we have already gone through a series of
2 hearings relating to sentencing, that this
3 justifies at this point in a very busy session
4 having hearings on these kinds of issues,
5 especially since we don't even have the
6 Governor's bill yet by the way, and although the
7 Assembly is already saying they're not going to
8 do it, but we'll see, we'll see what happens.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Senator Gold.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Let me make some
13 comments.
14 First of all, Senator Volker,
15 when you say in the course of a very busy
16 session, if I were to ask my constituents and I
17 went and asked your constituents and everybody
18 else's constituents, what do they want to come
19 out of this session, everybody's constituents
20 are going to say the same thing. They want
21 safety; they want some intelligent approach to
22 crime so, if I said to them that we couldn't
23 hold hearings on a subject this important
1700
1 because we had a busy session, they'd ask me to
2 stop smoking what they would think I'm smoking
3 or stop drinking what they think I'm drinking
4 because they would say, What else am I sending
5 you there for, and I think the environment is
6 important, but this is more important. I think
7 this is important, but this is more important.
8 So, in all fairness to you, Senator Volker,
9 busyness is not the issue.
10 Secondly, I don't want to be
11 snide about it. Busyness is not the issue
12 during the first three months of this session
13 when we do really nothing. Come on. Let's face
14 it, we're in the end of March and we're debating
15 Calendar Number 298, and I'll bet you 290 -- 290
16 of those were redigested bills that we got rid
17 of last year and whatever.
18 So we're not overly busy, and I
19 know we all spend a lot of time walking around
20 with our hands to our heads thinking about the
21 budget issues, but we could sit in some of the
22 time.
23 I believe, Senator Volker, that
1701
1 it is time to do something very seriously in
2 this area and that to me means getting away from
3 slogans, all right? This voting for your bill,
4 Senator Volker, is probably politically the
5 easiest vote anybody can ever cast. You know,
6 you have three strikes you're in. Yeah, I voted
7 for that, and then a year from now when nothing
8 is changed and people are still getting beaten
9 up by our youngsters and there are still all the
10 guns in the street and the drug problem is
11 involved, people are going to say, I don't
12 understand something. What went wrong here?
13 Now, we've had that experience.
14 It's called the Rockefeller drug laws. Now,
15 when those laws came up, and I think it was in
16 the '60s, am I correct, Senator? '70s, all
17 right. It couldn't have been too far in the
18 '70s because he was out in the early '70s, but
19 that was the end. As a matter of fact, to
20 refresh your recollection, the reason we have a
21 problem with the overcrowding in prison is
22 because Rockefeller would not concede that the
23 drug laws were going to do nothing, his drug
1702
1 laws and, therefore, his attitude was, I can't
2 pass my drug laws and build prisons because then
3 I'm actually saying that, by these harsh drug
4 laws, I'm not going to accomplish anything and
5 the bottom line is, the harshest sentencing drug
6 laws, and we've accomplished nothing when it
7 comes to containing drugs.
8 So I believe, Senator Volker, we
9 owe the people this year certainly a lot more
10 than the -- than the slogans and the -- and I
11 know this slogan is grabbed on, we hear it
12 coming out of Washington, all over the place.
13 The fact of the matter is that, if somebody
14 commits a violent crime, when they are 18 or 19,
15 even in New York City, Senator Volker, they
16 shouldn't get a slap on the wrist and go no
17 place.
18 There should be a punishment once
19 they're in prison. If we can rehabilitate, I'm
20 all for serious rehabilitation if it can be
21 done, but punishment is something that ought to
22 -- someone who ought to understand when they
23 commit a violent crime and if that person does
1703
1 it a second time under the existing laws, a
2 judge is supposed to make sure it's not only a
3 slap on the wrist, it's a hit in the head and
4 that they go to jail, and it means something and
5 under existing law, Senator, if that jerk does
6 it a third time, he is going to be old when he
7 gets out as it is.
8 That's what is supposed to
9 happen. Now, if it is not happening, then I
10 think as much as I respect our judiciary, that's
11 where we have to be looking. I don't condone,
12 Senator Volker, sentences where the one I was
13 talking about, a young man who had been in
14 trouble time and time again stole a purse from
15 an old lady, knocked her over and, through no
16 fault of the criminal, she lived and a judge
17 gave the kid six months. I was ready to pull my
18 hair out. I mean that's no message in there,
19 but I think it's a serious, serious area, and
20 the -- the people that I would like to get at
21 are those young people who we ought to be
22 putting onto some decent road either by way of
23 punishment, rehabilitation or by -- by some
1704
1 warning in a sentencing system that takes care
2 of that.
3 I've got one bill in that would
4 change the youthful offender program so that, if
5 they mess up when they get the youthful
6 offender, they might even lose that because
7 society has to be serious about this.
8 But, Senator, I think we are here
9 prematurely. We really are. I think that under
10 your leadership, under your leadership, we could
11 really take a significant look at this problem
12 and deal with the Governor and maybe get some
13 place.
14 So, Mr. President, I would, at
15 this point, move to table this bill and ask
16 Senator Volker either agree to it, do it
17 voluntarily or support the motion and after the
18 budget passes within the next three or four
19 weeks, we can sit down and direct our attention
20 to the one thing people really sent us here for
21 and some plan that will help us in the crime
22 area.
23 So, Mr. President, I do so move.
1705
1 I move that the bill at this time be tabled.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
3 Chair rules Senator Gold's motion out of order.
4 SENATOR GOLD: May I ask why,
5 Senator?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: It is
7 not proper to table a bill, Senator, until a
8 vote has -
9 SENATOR GOLD: I'm sorry. I
10 didn't hear what you said.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: It is
12 not proper to table a bill, Senator, until a
13 vote is taken on such bill or upon a veto of
14 such bill.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Mr.
16 President, if I may: I know that when a bill is
17 defeated it's offered -- a motion is often made
18 to reconsider the vote and we table that motion
19 until such time as a member may or may not want
20 to bring it up, but under parliamentary
21 procedure, I'm not aware that you cannot at any
22 time move to table an item that is before the
23 house.
1706
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
2 Senator, you may ask the sponsor to lay a bill
3 aside. However, a motion to table is out of
4 order.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Well, I'd like to
6 -- Mr. President, I would like to know under
7 what section of your rules you are referring so
8 that I may educate myself? I always like to
9 learn.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Counsel is reviewing the section for you,
12 Senator.
13 SENATOR GOLD: I appreciate
14 that.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Senator Gold.
18 SENATOR GOLD: If I may, I'm
19 looking at some rules here, and I notice that
20 under Rule VIII, which says "Reconsideration",
21 there's a reference to adjourning and to lay
22 upon the table. This obviously is not a motion
23 for reconsideration. Under Rule VII it says
1707
1 "Motions", and motion number 3 says "to lay on
2 the table".
3 I don't -- I don't see where I
4 don't have a right to make such a motion. It's
5 a motion that's specifically referred to in our
6 rules as one of our motions and it's always -
7 it's always in order.
8 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
9 Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Senator Volker.
12 SENATOR GOLD: As a matter of
13 fact, with apologies to Senator Volker for just
14 one moment. The way I get it, it says: A motion
15 to adjourn or call of Senate or to lay on the
16 table shall be decided without debate and shall
17 always be in order except as provided by Rules
18 V, VII and IX, and I don't see anything in those
19 that rules me out of order.
20 I'm sorry, Senator Volker.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
22 Senator Volker.
23 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President,
1708
1 if I may say, and I think that you and I have
2 been here, you've been here a little longer than
3 I have, and we've been here a long time, and
4 I've never heard of a motion to lay on the table
5 in the midst of a debate, and I believe that
6 there -- the rules and tradition of this house
7 is, the sponsor has control of his bill.
8 Motions to lay on the table have been as far as
9 overrides and also when a bill is defeated, we
10 have reconsidered it and laid it on the table
11 pending a further vote, but I don't think I've
12 ever heard, and I don't believe there is, I
13 think the rules provide that the sponsor has the
14 right to control his own bill. If you want to
15 oppose it, you have the right to oppose it and
16 try to defeat it if you so want to, but I think
17 we should proceed to a vote on the bill.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Mr.
19 President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
21 Senator Gold, let me repeat the ruling on your
22 motion. The Chair rules your motion out of
23 order at this time as being untimely on a motion
1709
1 to table a bill which is only proper when the
2 bill has been voted on or has been vetoed.
3 The sponsor of each bill of this
4 house controls that bill. Senator Volker has
5 the bill properly before the house. It's been
6 debated. The Senator has the authority to lay
7 his bill aside. No other member has the
8 authority at this time. So I must regretfully
9 rule your motion as untimely and out of order.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 I want to appeal the ruling of
13 the Chair and explaining my position if I may.
14 I think it's particularly important that we have
15 a gallery filled with young people so they can
16 get a real -
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
18 Senator, if you will excuse me, Senator. The
19 Senator appeals the ruling of the Chair.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Now, Mr.
21 President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: You
23 wish to be heard on the ruling, Mr. Senator?
1710
1 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Thank you so
2 much.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: On
4 the appeal, Senator Gold.
5 SENATOR GOLD: We have -- we have
6 rules the way everybody has rules, except it's
7 very interesting, because these rules are
8 provided by the Majority and they are voted for
9 and enacted by the Majority and then one would
10 begin to say that, even though the Majority
11 can't make the rules, once the rules are there,
12 they are the rules for everybody.
13 That doesn't work around here
14 because while we happen to have a very
15 distinguished Senator, not the Lieutenant
16 Governor right now but a distinguished Senator
17 acting as our presiding officer, he's a member
18 of the Majority party, the rule which I have
19 here and be glad to show everybody, says, and I
20 quote: "Motions. On questions before the Senate
21 only the following motions shall be made by a
22 Senator, and such motion shall have precedence,"
23 and it says: 1. For an adjournment; 2. For a
1711
1 call of the Senate, and number 3 is to lay on
2 the table.
3 It then says: "Under VII (b) the
4 motion to adjourn or for a call of the Senate or
5 to lay on the table shall be decided without
6 debate and shall always be in order except as
7 provided in Rule V, VII and IX," and I haven't
8 heard anybody point to those sections to tell me
9 I'm out of order.
10 So, Mr. President, I won't
11 belabor the point, it's enough to say that while
12 I always recognize the right of the Majority to
13 vote as a Majority and create the rules, I will
14 never recognize the right of the Majority to
15 spit in the face of the Minority when it relies
16 upon a rule that you created and you will not
17 deal with that rule.
18 Now, Senator Volker says that
19 he's been here a while, and he doesn't remember
20 anybody making the motion, and I will say to
21 you, Senator, that with all due respect -- and
22 I've got the greatest respect for you, never
23 question that -- but that comment isn't relevant
1712
1 because the rule provides -
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
3 Senator Gold, if you would suffer an
4 interruption. Senator Farley, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR FARLEY: Senator Gold, if
6 I may, not to ask you a question but on this
7 issue, I don't think there's any more
8 significant rule for this house than for every
9 Senator that a Senator controls his own
10 legislation.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
12 SENATOR FARLEY: He can lay it
13 aside.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
15 SENATOR GALIBER: A point of
16 order. Point of order, Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
18 Senator Farley -
19 SENATOR GOLD: The Senator is out
20 of order.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
22 Senator Gold, you were asked by Senator Farley
23 to yield. You refuse to yield?
1713
1 SENATOR GOLD: I refuse to yield
2 to a statement by Senator Farley.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
4 Senator Farley, Senator Gold refuses to yield.
5 Now, Senator Gold.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Now, I have, as
7 much as I heard from Senator Farley, I heard
8 that it's very significant that a Senator
9 control his own legislation. Senator, what's
10 significant is that we do the people's work.
11 That's what's significant and, if somebody wants
12 to, we once had this with amendments, so we
13 changed the rules. We pointed out to you that
14 it took a motion to amend a bill, and you didn't
15 like that because, if it's a motion, I could
16 debate that motion, so you went in the other
17 room, you changed the rule and I said, Fine,
18 you're the Majority. You have changed the
19 rule.
20 Now, do you want to call a recess
21 and go change the rule and eliminate the motion
22 to lay aside? I guess I can't stop you from
23 doin' that either, but the point is the rule is
1714
1 there and, when you say it's so important for a
2 Senator to control a bill, I say to you, Senator
3 Farley, that's hogwash.
4 In the United States Congress, a
5 Senator or an Assemblyman puts a piece of
6 legislation on the floor, they talk about it,
7 they amend it, they allow amendments, they will
8 go back and forth. In this place it is absurd
9 when it comes to that as a legislative body.
10 We happen to have a junior
11 Senator from the state of New York who, if he
12 was treated in Congress the way you treat the
13 Minority in this house, he wouldn't be able to
14 find a men's room, but they tell me that that is
15 a legislative body and every once in a while you
16 will hear that Senator Alphonse D'Amato passes a
17 resolution and Senator D'Amato does this or does
18 that. Why? Because Democrats in the United
19 States Congress treat him with dignity as a
20 legislative body, and they survive.
21 I got news for you. The
22 Democratic majority survived down there and they
23 still treat it like a legislative body.
1715
1 Now, this is an issue which I
2 think is the most important issue in Albany.
3 What do we do to stop crime in our districts?
4 And it deserves more than cavalier treatment.
5 It deserves serious consideration, not
6 back-of-the-hand answers like three times you're
7 in, three times you're out, and nobody has to
8 think about it.
9 It seems to me, Mr. President,
10 that there is nothing in these rules that for
11 bids us from thinking particularly about an
12 important issue and I would suggest, Senator
13 Volker, that based upon your background you have
14 a lot to contribute to this issue and you bring
15 great credibility to the table on this issue,
16 but there are other people who could come to
17 that table with points of view and credibility
18 and the bottom line of which would be perhaps a
19 breakthrough in the area. And that's what I'm
20 asking to do.
21 Is there -- if your bill passes
22 today, Senator Volker, you and I know it's going
23 nowhere. The Assembly, Senator Lack, is not
1716
1 going to deal with it right away. The Governor
2 certainly isn't going to deal with it until his
3 bill is on the table, so we go through this all
4 the time; all the time we go through this.
5 Well, we want the Senate position
6 out there in front. That's nonsense. You put
7 in your bill. Your position is out there. It's
8 on the calendar. Your position is out there.
9 It will be respected and handled and dealt with,
10 but to do what we do in this bulldog, bulldozer
11 way is just juvenile and it -- in my opinion, it
12 cuts the dignity of this house.
13 But I want to say this, Senator
14 Volker: If you want to go through with it and
15 you believe you should go ahead, I respect that
16 too and let you and your colleagues and maybe
17 some of my colleagues on this side vote not to
18 table and to take the bill up and that's
19 something I can respect, but I think, Senator
20 Volker, that maybe you should tell our
21 distinguished presiding officer that you don't
22 need his protection and you don't have to bend
23 and twist and walk the rules to protect you
1717
1 because you are very, very competent, Senator
2 Volker, and don't need protection from me, and
3 if you want to go ahead and take a vote on this
4 bill, I'm sure you have a majority on your side
5 that will do it and, therefore, to disrupt the
6 rules, to missread the rules in a situation
7 where in the last analysis you don't have to do
8 it, means you degrade the rules and degrade us
9 for no reason and that's something I will never
10 understand, and I would urge my colleagues on
11 both sides of the aisle if you respect this
12 institution, at least let's vote to uphold the
13 rule and let the chips fall where they may.
14 Thank you.
15 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Senator Daly.
18 SENATOR DALY: I yield to Senator
19 Volker.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
21 Senator Volker, why do you rise?
22 SENATOR VOLKER: Let me, first of
23 all, say that no one is hiding behind anything
1718
1 and, Senator, I really, I didn't realize how
2 sensitive this issue must be to you, very
3 honestly. I realize this is a heavily charged
4 political year but I had no idea that this was
5 such a heavily charged political issue.
6 But all that aside, no one has to
7 tell me about the seriousnessness necessary of
8 the crime issue and, Senator, let me tell you
9 something what my constituents are saying. They
10 don't want hearings; they don't want all this
11 kind of stuff. They want some action and merely
12 running around doing some more hearings, I don't
13 know if any of my constituents are really going
14 to consider to be any real action, particularly
15 when I tell them we've had hearings ad nauseum
16 on the same sort of issues over the years.
17 Now, let me just make a
18 suggestion. Personally, I think, Senator, that
19 you have what you're attempted to do, I know is
20 seized on the possibility of some wrinkle in the
21 rules that maybe you could use, and I guess I
22 understand that. I don't think, by the way,
23 that the rules are intended to allow for this
1719
1 sort of thing. I happen to agree with Senator
2 Farley that the right of a Senator, whether he's
3 a Democrat or -- he or she, or Republican or
4 whoever, to control their bills has been
5 something that we have maintained here.
6 Let me just suggest to the Chair,
7 however, in the interests of resolving this
8 issue, that we have a vote on the issue of the
9 ruling of the Chair and get -- on the motion to
10 table and get this issue resolved and then go on
11 and vote on the bill.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
13 Senator Volker?
14 Senator Stavisky.
15 SENATOR STAVISKY: In the last
16 analysis, Mr. President, I may decide to vote
17 with Senator Volker rather than Senator Gold on
18 the substance of the issue, but not on the rules
19 of procedure. Nowhere in the rules, as Senator
20 Gold articulated them, is there a limitation
21 placed upon any member of the Senate precluding
22 any member of the Senate from offering a motion
23 to table. I heard no such language. We do not
1720
1 limit the motion to table only to the sponsor.
2 Secondly, and I heard Senator
3 Gold repeat the rules of this Senate -- not any
4 other Senate, this Senate -- and there was no
5 limitation as to the time that a motion to table
6 may be made. There was nothing that said it may
7 be made only during the first minutes of
8 consideration or the last 30 seconds. If anyone
9 can find any such limitation, then Senator Gold
10 is incorrect, but hearing no limitation as to
11 the individual who may offer such a motion to
12 table or the timeliness or lack of timeliness, I
13 believe, Mr. President, that you should do the
14 unexpected and perhaps be extremely fair and
15 rule that Senator Gold's objection is
16 appropriate pursuant to our rules, and that
17 really ought to be dealt with in an objective
18 manner.
19 Sometimes consultation across the
20 aisle is worth doing and worth noting, and I
21 would hope that we would not leave this issue of
22 our rules up in the air with a misconception
23 interpreted in a way that is not to be found in
1721
1 the language of our own rules and, for that
2 reason, I hope, Mr. President, that you perhaps
3 would reconsider your interpretation of Senator
4 Gold's remarks and the rules of our chamber.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
6 Senator Daly.
7 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, I
8 would like to take exception to some of the
9 comments made by my colleagues on the other
10 side.
11 I take the reverse -- the
12 opposite approach and that the fact that we are
13 even discussing this issue at this time is -
14 this procedural issue is clearly indicative of
15 the respect that the Majority in this house has
16 for the Minority and particularly for the
17 institution. We could have closed down this
18 dialogue 15 minutes ago. It's a non-debatable
19 issue. We could have asked for a vote of the
20 appeal of the Chair, so I will take strong
21 exception to the comments made by Minority
22 colleagues that the Majority shows a disrespect
23 for them and for the rules. We do not.
1722
1 Let me say to you, if this was in
2 the Assembly where the Democratic Party is in
3 control, we wouldn't even have been discussing
4 it. It would have been shut off 15 minutes
5 ago.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Thank
7 you, Senator Daly.
8 The vote is on Senator Gold's
9 motion to appeal the ruling of the Chair, ruling
10 Senator Gold's motion to table Senator Volker's
11 bill out of order. All those in favor of
12 upholding the rule of the Chair, signify by
13 saying aye.
14 (Response of "Aye.")
15 All those opposed say nay.
16 (Response of "Nay." )
17 In the ruling, it appears the
18 ayes have it. The Chair's ruling is upheld.
19 Senator Volker.
20 SENATOR VOLKER: Last section.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
22 the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
1723
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
3 the roll.
4 SENATOR WALDON: To explain my
5 vote, Mr. President.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
8 Senator Waldon to explain his vote.
9 SENATOR WALDON: I wish to
10 respond to something that was said earlier by
11 Senator Volker to make the record rather clear.
12 He stated that the majority of the crimes
13 committed in the black community is by blacks
14 against blacks. That is true, and it is a
15 worrisome truth for anyone who serves a
16 community that has African-Americans,
17 Cuban-Americans and other minorities in that
18 community.
19 When I was a young police off
icer
20 working the streets of Manhattan, Brooklyn and
21 Queens, I was rather efficient and yet, some
22 evenings when I went home from work -- and we
23 normally worked with a task force from 6:00 p.m.
1724
1 to 2:00 a.m., my heart was heavy because I saw
2 officers empowered as I was who stretched what
3 they did in terms of the enforcement, and what I
4 specifically want to respond to in the
5 explanation of my vote is, when Senator Volker
6 said that there's a disproportionate
7 representation of African-Americans in the
8 prison system and alluded to the fact that it
9 was -- there was no injustice in the numbers
10 which are in the prisons, that is not quite
11 true.
12 Regrettably when you have an
13 arresting officer who may have a racist tendency
14 and a prosecutor who may have a racist tendency,
15 sometimes even a judge who has a racist tenden
16 cy, there will be a disproportionate representa
17 tion of blacks in the prison system, which is
18 not caused by the fact that they may have had a
19 tendency to commit crime.
20 I'll close on this note: Just
21 this past week in my district, police officers
22 were rightfully chasing a man with a gun from
23 off the premises of Beach Channel High School,
1725
1 chased him into the area of Beach Channel High
2 School and made a lawful arrest. Some students,
3 numbers of them being black, decided to take a
4 picture of what happened with a camera.
5 The officers laughed at the pris
6 oners, came back, separated the white kids from
7 the black kids, pummeled the black children,
8 breaking the ankle of one, punching a young lady
9 in her chest and injuring another young black
10 student; and I did not get this from the
11 students. I received this information from the
12 teachers and the principal and the white
13 students who were so enraged by what happened
14 that they demonstrated and marched from the
15 school to the precinct to protest the actions of
16 the police officers.
17 I support the police. I am one
18 of those who is proud to call himself a former
19 member of the police department, but what
20 happens sometimes, my brothers and sisters, is
21 that racism does creep into the criminal justice
22 system and we ought to be talking about how to
23 prevent people from ever considering crime as an
1726
1 opportunity instead of always considering better
2 and more efficient ways to incarcerate those who
3 have committed crimes, sometimes unfortunately
4 those who have not, in fact, committed a crime
5 warranting that they be apart of the criminal
6 justice system.
7 I thank you, Mr. President, for
8 listening. I thank my colleagues for under
9 standing the passion with which I speak about
10 this issue, and I must vote in the no.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
12 Senator Waldon in the negative.
13 The Secretary will announce the
14 results.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Senator Gold.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Explain my vote.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Senator Gold to explain his vote.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I
22 am in a perhaps little different position than
23 some of my colleagues, because I'm out there on
1727
1 the record. I was a member of the Morgenthau
2 Commission. I was a member of the second
3 commission appointed by a second governor, and
4 my name is on the report asking for intelligent
5 sentencing; so I don't have to deal with this as
6 a political issue.
7 I wish that we would all look at
8 it seriously, and Senator Volker said he didn't
9 know I was so sensitive, and I say, Senator
10 Volker, I am sensitive. You know, the fact that
11 I'm a Senator doesn't give me any special
12 protection. When the fellow grabbed my wife's
13 purse off her shoulder, her bag off her
14 shoulder, there wasn't a sign she could pull out
15 and say, "Wait a minute. You can't make me a
16 crime victim; I'm a Senator's wife."
17 This is ridiculous. We all live
18 in this community, but I'm going to tell you,
19 Senator Volker, I believe there should be
20 hearings and, if you as a Majority, don't want
21 to do it, then we as a Minority are going to do
22 it. I asked you to table it. Don't want to
23 table it? Fine. Don't want to deal with that.
1728
1 The governor has suggested this. The President
2 has talked about it, and I think it's something
3 that should be talked out. It's something that
4 if we had a bill in final form, I might even be
5 able to vote for, but right now today, while the
6 Governor's bill is not even out here, there's no
7 reason for me to have to say that I will vote
8 for anything that has a slogan attached to it
9 and I won't do it.
10 So, Senator, I am going to vote
11 in the negative today. I am going to tell you
12 that there are members on this side of the aisle
13 who will, in fact, put together hearings on the
14 issue of sentencing, on the three strikes you're
15 in or out, on other guideline sentencing. We
16 will invite judges; we will invite district
17 attorneys, defenders and others to come to this
18 hearing and we will take the matter seriously
19 and not as a tag line.
20 So I may, in fact, by the end of
21 this session, find a bill that deals with this
22 issue that I can support, and it may even turn
23 out, Senator Volker, that you're on the right
1729
1 track, but I think the seriousness of crime in
2 this state requires a serious look at the issue
3 and not a tag line.
4 I vote no.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
6 Senator Gold in the negative.
7 The Secretary will announce the
8 results.
9 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
10 the negative on Calendar Number 298 are Senators
11 Galiber, Gold, Leichter, Montgomery, Ohrenstein,
12 Santiago, Smith and Waldon. Ayes 49, nays 8.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
14 bill is passed.
15 The Secretary -- Secretary will
16 read.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 413, by Senator Marino, Senate Bill Number
19 3828-A, an act to amend Chapter 576 of the Laws
20 of 1975.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Explanation is asked for.
1730
1 SENATOR PRESENT: Senator LaValle
2 will explain it.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
4 Senator LaValle.
5 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President,
6 on behalf of Senator Marino, this bill would
7 authorize the Commissioner to -- Commissioner of
8 Education to contract on a -- for students who
9 are interested in pursuing a medical education,
10 that the state of New York would make contracts
11 for up to 40 students with three different
12 medical schools that are outside of our country,
13 the University of Padua, the Royal College of
14 Surgeons and St. George's University School of
15 Medicine.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
17 section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Senator Stavisky.
21 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator
22 LaValle, would you yield?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
1731
1 Senator LaValle yields.
2 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
4 Senator yields.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: In the absence
6 of this legislation, is there anything under law
7 that prohibits the Commissioner of Education
8 from recommending to us or on his own volition,
9 the addition of contracts with foreign medical
10 schools?
11 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as you
12 know, what we are doing is adding to schools
13 that statutorily we have delineated specifically
14 that the Commissioner contract with specific
15 medical schools, whether it be Saclica, Mahary
16 or other medical schools.
17 SENATOR STAVISKY: That was not
18 my question.
19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Is there
21 anything that prohibits the Commissioner of
22 Education by statute or by administration action
23 on his own volition from entering into
1732
1 additional contracts with foreign medical
2 schools?
3 SENATOR LAVALLE: I would have to
4 say, Senator, based on the legislation that I'm
5 holding in my hand that amends existing law,
6 that it appears that the contracts that the
7 Commissioner can make on behalf of New York
8 State is with specific medical schools and
9 that's delineated by statute.
10 SENATOR STAVISKY: Isn't it true,
11 Senator LaValle -- if he will continue yielding.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
13 Senator LaValle continue to yield?
14 SENATOR LAVALLE: No.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
16 Senator refuses to yield.
17 SENATOR STAVISKY: I happen to
18 know that the state of New York enters into -
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Senator Stavisky, on the bill.
21 SENATOR STAVISKY: I'm continuing
22 now -- enters into agreements with institutions
23 at all levels in the elementary and secondary
1733
1 field with regard to special education, the
2 education of disabled and handicapped children,
3 that the state of New York regularly and the
4 state Education Department regularly, without
5 any statute by the Legislature, the Commissioner
6 of Education already has the power to do this
7 and does it with regard to recognizing fine
8 programs at educational institutions that are
9 not here in the state of New York.
10 I wish that we had more fine
11 educational institutions, including medical
12 schools, in the state of New York. I wish that
13 Queens County, a county of 2 million people, had
14 a medical school of its own, not an affiliation
15 with a medical school in Manhattan over on the
16 island, but Queens County doesn't have a medical
17 school.
18 Is there anything wrong with
19 these institutions? The Commissioner of
20 Education hasn't told us that there's anything
21 right with these institutions. I have visited
22 one of the institutions and I'm not going to say
23 that I am qualified to pass upon the programs,
1734
1 but I could tell you that one of these places
2 beach barbecue seems to be the main order of the
3 day; they have marvelous beach barbecue stands.
4 I did not see an extensive clinical facility. I
5 did not see a report from the Commissioner of
6 Education of the state of New York recommending
7 the clinical facilities which I did not see, or
8 the beach barbecue which I did see.
9 There may be compelling reasons
10 why legislation like this is introduced, but
11 that doesn't mean that it's a sound educational
12 reason, and I think that the time may be near
13 for the Legislature not to intrude upon medical
14 and health decisions that should be made by
15 those who are far more qualified to evaluate -
16 to evaluate medical and health quality than the
17 members of this Legislature, notwithstanding the
18 superbly qualified sponsor of this bill or the
19 superbly qualified advocate for this bill on the
20 floor.
21 I think it's an unsound
22 practice. We're picking out institutions
23 perhaps with a waiting game, perhaps with order,
1735
1 to show that we give some recognition to
2 different parts of the world. That's not the
3 way to evaluate the soundness of an educational
4 program, and we should not do that until we have
5 sound medical recommendations from the agency to
6 which we turn for educational evaluations and,
7 for this reason, I would hope that we do not add
8 to this list until we see sound educational and
9 medical evaluations for any institution that we
10 add.
11 I do not wish to offend any of
12 the institutions or their advocates. I simply
13 want to see an objective report given to us
14 before we vote.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
16 Senator Galiber.
17 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President,
18 if Senator LaValle will yield.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Will
20 Senator LaValle yield? Senator LaValle yields.
21 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President,
22 last year on the calendar this question of
23 accreditation came up, and I'm glad to see you
1736
1 carrying the bill because if you can recall -
2 excuse my back -- that some years ago we had a
3 similar debate on why some of New York's resi
4 dents had to go to Mexico, foreign places, to be
5 admitted into their medical school and then come
6 back to New York after some two years in Mexico,
7 keep it a secret to the Mexican medical school
8 that they were making application to get back
9 into or get into a school here in New York
10 State.
11 And now we find a situation
12 where, on this piece of legislation that we're
13 asking to perhaps extend to a school or schools
14 which may or may not have accreditation, and
15 this is why I'm asking you, is -- will these
16 schools or are these schools accredited schools
17 or is it just a contract that we have to go for
18 a couple of years in those schools and come back
19 and run into the same stumbling blocks that we
20 did when those who made application to foreign
21 schools like Mexico, we had this debate I guess
22 maybe ten years ago?
23 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, we did.
1737
1 SENATOR GALIBER: Maybe even
2 longer, and you assured me that to converse with
3 us along these lines, we were able to get a
4 biomedical program started to relieve some of
5 the problems that we had. But is this an
6 accredited -- will these schools be accredited?
7 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, the -
8 and we have had numerous debates over the years,
9 both on this bill before us and others, and the
10 question, of course, comes up on accreditation.
11 The process in terms of the state Education
12 Department and our laws, many times the
13 department will require of these institutions
14 before it receives its approval and the students
15 being capable of taking that medical education
16 and then going to a clinical site, many times
17 there are bridges that need to be built.
18 It is my feeling from what I
19 know, to answer your question directly, that
20 these programs are accredited. The component
21 that is -- is the turning issue that we
22 shouldn't confuse it with, is the clinical piece
23 and that piece the students move from many times
1738
1 the foreign institution to a clinical site here
2 in the United States, but before they can do
3 that, the student has to go through several
4 steps.
5 This is a problem. It's an
6 unfortunate problem, by the way, that students
7 in your country who apply to medical colleges
8 and are the cream -- the cream of our under
9 graduate programs but get turned down two and
10 three and four times, but because of their
11 desire to be a physician, they're not going to
12 let rejection step between them and getting that
13 medical degree and practicing that they go
14 outside the country, they go outside the country
15 and it's a long and arduous course, but one that
16 we in this state have requirements, and that the
17 student has to go through that along with the
18 colleges in which they come from in order to
19 meet the clinical requirements.
20 So it's kind of a long answer,
21 but it's not a simple process. It's not a
22 simple process, and it's a shame that we don't
23 have more seats for the students in our state
1739
1 and our country.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
3 the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
7 Secretary will call the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
10 the negative on Calendar Number 413 are Senators
11 Connor, Galiber, Gold, Leichter, Mendez,
12 Montgomery, Ohrenstein, Onorato, Santiago,
13 Stachowski and Stavisky. Ayes 46, nays 11.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
15 bill is passed.
16 Senator Connor.
17 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 May I have unanimous consent to
20 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number
21 298?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Without objection.
1740
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 419, by Senator Bruno, Senate Bill Number 6871
3 in -
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
5 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
6 the development of a plan and schedule.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
8 I wonder if -
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
10 Senator Leichter, why do you rise?
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: To debate this
12 bill and to ask a question of my good friend,
13 Senator Bruno, if he would yield.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Bruno, will you yield?
16 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
17 President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Yes,
19 the Senator yields.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, first
21 let me point out what caught my attention in
22 this bill. There were two things. One is its
23 erudition, because I saw that we had a bill that
1741
1 used the word collocate, and I thought that it's
2 an unusual word; I hadn't seen it. I was a bit
3 concerned that people reading the bill would
4 understand and appreciate it and, of course, I
5 very much was impressed by the learning that you
6 show, Senator, in the drafting of this bill, but
7 I did not think that there was a word such as
8 "collocated", and I went to the dictionary and
9 indeed it is there, Senator, and I wanted to
10 acknowledge that publicly, and I am concerned,
11 however, Senator that this bill, if passed and
12 becomes law, we're going to to have all these
13 state officials that are going to be running to
14 the dictionary to find out precisely what it is
15 they're supposed to be doing. But I guess we'll
16 -- we'll just have to have them attain the high
17 level of learning and erudition that we have in
18 this chamber.
19 SENATOR BRUNO: Hopefully.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: But, Senator,
21 there is one thing that does raise some concern
22 in my mind as I read this bill, and I believe
23 that would be new law. Is it you're going to
1742
1 provide at least one employee of various state
2 agencies to be in the regional offices?
3 I think the idea of a regional
4 office is good, and maybe each of these agencies
5 ought to have somebody in the regional office
6 although I could see some instances where a
7 representative of one agency could very well
8 also do the -- the work of another agency, but
9 the question I really have for you is that if
10 we're going to have these employees, one from
11 each of the named agencies working in ten
12 offices, we're going to need some additional
13 employees, and I don't see any appropriation
14 tied into your bill.
15 Now, Senator, I know that you're
16 somebody who speaks out very often about waste
17 and cutting government expenditures, although I
18 must, in all fairness, point out and with some
19 chagrin, that I often see bills on your part
20 asking government to do this and that and
21 mandating this activity, and so on, to the state
22 agency. Here you're going to have these
23 additional employees. How are we going to pay
1743
1 for it, Senator?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
3 Senator Bruno.
4 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
5 that is a good question, and Senator, I'm very
6 pleased that you did seek a dictionary because
7 just in case anyone should have had on their
8 mind whether there is such a word, I also have
9 the Webster dictionary here, and I will not
10 relate it since you are comfortable, and what I
11 thought was, if this bill becomes law that we
12 would put this page from Webster's right along
13 as part of the memorandum of explanation.
14 But as to employees, Senator,
15 this bill very specifically calls for the
16 Commissioner of the Department of Economic
17 Development to prepare a plan to collocate
18 within their ten regional offices the help that
19 is available to the business community. Science
20 and Technology Foundation, Urban Development
21 Corp., Job Development Authority, SUNY and CUNY,
22 would be located in one of the sites within the
23 ten regional offices that already exist.
1744
1 So, Senator, this bill calls for
2 a plan to be submitted by the Commissioner and
3 the Commissioner would outline whatever they
4 determine to be the need to meet the
5 requirements of this law, and then I would guess
6 in the year '95, because this calls for a report
7 by December 31, '94, that in '95, we in our
8 wisdom would then meet whatever financial
9 requirement that there might be if we thought
10 they were appropriate.
11 We have a feeling that there are
12 enough employees now within Science and
13 Technology, UDC, JDA, that would be assigned the
14 task of informing the business community on how
15 help is available.
16 The bottom line is there's a lot
17 of help available to people in this state and
18 they don't know it and, if you in business want
19 to go to find out what help is available, you
20 have to go to eight, ten, twenty different
21 places, and small business people especially
22 don't have the time or the inclination. So what
23 we're saying is, let's get them all together in
1745
1 one office. They already exist; these ten
2 offices exist, put the people there and then you
3 as a business person go in and you talk to
4 whomever it is there that can help you.
5 We think it's reasonable. We
6 think it's the kind of thing that's needed to
7 help stimulate small business and job
8 development in this state. But it doesn't
9 appropriate money because, first, we need the
10 plan, and the plan is called for by December
11 31st, '94 and as a result of all of this good
12 planning, we will collocate throughout the state
13 in the ten regional offices.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
16 Senator Leichter.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Very, very
18 briefly, having in mind that the time, that this
19 is such a significant bill, as Senator Bruno
20 pointed out to me, and I didn't want, therefore,
21 that it would just, you know, pass quickly
22 without anybody noticing it, but the fact is
23 that this bill provides that -- the bill man
1746
1 dates on these state agencies to come up with a
2 plan that requires to have at least one employee
3 at each of the regional centers. It says "shall
4 provide".
5 It further provides that one of
6 the agencies is the City University of New
7 York. Now, I don't know where all of these ten
8 regional offices are, but I assume some of them
9 are way up in the North Country and other places
10 and, while City University may have something to
11 offer, to say that an employee of the City
12 University has got to sit up in Warrensburg, if
13 you're lucky to sit up there -- it's a beautiful
14 place -- or in Watertown, New York, another
15 beautiful place, frankly doesn't make sense,
16 Senator Bruno, and I think to require a plan, I
17 think that's fine, but to require a plan as your
18 bill does that must have ten -- that must have
19 employees of all of these agencies, including
20 the state -- the City University of New York
21 really just doesn't make sense and, of course,
22 as usual, you never put money in back of these
23 proposals.
1747
1 For that reason, I'm going to
2 vote against it. Thank you.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
4 section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
8 the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Announce the results.
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays
13 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Mendez.
16 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
18 bill is passed.
19 Senator Mendez.
20 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr.
21 President.
22 The vote on Bill Number 298
23 occurred when I was out of the chamber, and
1748
1 could I please be recorded in the negative, to
2 have unanimous consent to be recorded in the
3 negative. Also on 413, I request it yes. 298,
4 no.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
6 Without objection.
7 SENATOR MENDEZ: 413, yes.
8 THE SECRETARY: You want 413 to
9 be yes?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Without objection, the Secretary will so
12 indicate. Secretary will read.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 420, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number 7013,
15 an act to amend the State Administrative
16 Procedure Act.
17 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
19 bill is laid aside.
20 Senator Present.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
22 on behalf of Senator Marino, I offer up the
23 following committee assignment changes and ask
1749
1 that they be recorded in the Journal.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: To be
3 filed in the Journal.
4 Senator Present.
5 SENATOR PRESENT: Now, any more
6 housekeeping or nothing?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: No
8 housekeeping.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: On behalf of
10 Senator Levy, I'd like to announce a brief
11 conference of the Majority in Room 332
12 immediately following this session.
13 And, Mr. President, there being
14 no further business, I move that we adjourn
15 until Tuesday, March 29th, 3:00 p. m.,
16 intervening days to be legislative days.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
18 Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday, March
19 29th.
20 (Whereupon at 1:58 p.m., the
21 Senate adjourned. )
22
23