Regular Session - April 14, 1994

                                                                 
2532

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         8                       ALBANY, NEW YORK

         9                        April 14, 1994

        10                          1:43 p.m.

        11

        12

        13                       REGULAR SESSION

        14

        15

        16

        17       LT. NICHOLAS A. SPANO, Acting President

        18       STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary

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        20

        21

        22

        23











                                                             
2533

         1                      P R O C E E D I N G S

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The

         3       Senate will come to order.

         4                      All please rise for the Pledge of

         5       Allegiance to the flag.

         6                      (The assemblage repeated the

         7       Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

         8                      In the absence of clergy, may we

         9       please bow our heads in a moment of silence.

        10                      Reading of the Journal.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  In Senate,

        12       Wednesday, April 13th.  The Senate met pursuant

        13       to adjournment, Senator Farley in the Chair upon

        14       designation of the Temporary President.  The

        15       Journal of Tuesday, April 12th, was read and

        16       approved.  On motion, Senate adjourned.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Hearing

        18       no objection, the Journal stands approved as

        19       read.

        20                      Petitions; messages; motions.

        21       Senator Libous.

        22                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Mr. President,

        23       on behalf of my colleague, Senator Lack, on page











                                                             
2534

         1       14, I offer the following amendments to Calendar

         2       Number 503, Senate Print Number 3599, and ask

         3       that said bill retain its place on the Third

         4       Reading Calendar.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Without

         6       objection.

         7                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr. President.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         9       Goodman.

        10                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr. President,

        11       I was away from the chamber on Senate business

        12       when the votes on Calendar Number 354 and 396

        13       were taken.  I'd like to have the records

        14       reflect that had I been in the chamber at the

        15       time of those votes, I would have been recorded

        16       in the negative on those two bills.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Without

        18       objection, the record will so indicate.

        19                      Any other motions, resolutions?

        20                      Senator Present.

        21                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Let's take up

        22       the non-controversial calendar, please.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:











                                                             
2535

         1       Secretary will read the non-controversial

         2       calendar.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 11,

         4       Calendar Number 434, by Senator Levy.

         5                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Lay that bill

         6       aside for the day.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Laid

         8       aside for the day.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 15,

        10       Calendar Number 569, by Senator Larkin, Senate

        11       Bill Number 7557.

        12                      SENATOR GOLD:  Can we have a day

        13       on this?

        14                      SENATOR LARKIN:  You may have a

        15       day.

        16                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay it aside.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Laid

        18       aside for the day.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       570, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Bill Number

        21       4102-A, an act to amend the Agriculture and

        22       Markets Law and the Town Law.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Read the











                                                             
2536

         1       last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         3       act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

         5       roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

         9       is passed.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       571, by Senator Cook, Senate Bill Number 4753,

        12       an act to amend the Agriculture and Markets

        13       Law.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Read the

        15       last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

        19       roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

        23       is passed.











                                                             
2537

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       573, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 7545,

         3       Agriculture and Markets Law, and the

         4       Environmental Conservation Law.

         5                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay it aside.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Laid

         7       aside.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       574, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 7546,

        10       Agriculture and Markets Law.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Read the

        12       last section.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        14       act shall take effect immediately.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

        16       roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

        20       is passed.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       575, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 7547,

        23       an act to amend the Agriculture and Markets











                                                             
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         1       Law.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Read the

         3       last section.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         5       act shall take effect immediately.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

         7       roll.

         8                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 44.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

        11       is passed.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       576, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 7548,

        14       Agriculture and Markets Law, in relation to

        15       including livestock management in the integrated

        16       pest management program.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Read the

        18       last section.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        20       act shall take effect immediately.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

        22       roll.

        23                      (The Secretary called the roll. )











                                                             
2539

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 44.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

         3       is passed.

         4                      Senator Present, that concludes

         5       the non-controversial calendar.

         6                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         7       can we take up Calendar 573.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:

         9       Secretary will read Calendar 573.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       573, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Bill Number 7545,

        12       an act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law,

        13       and the Environmental Conservation Law.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        15        -- Senator Gold.

        16                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yeah, if you will

        17       bear with me just one second, please.  Mr.

        18       President.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        20       Gold, on the bill.

        21                      SENATOR GOLD:  Would Senator Kuhl

        22       yield to one question?

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator











                                                             
2540

         1       Kuhl, would you yield?

         2                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yes.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Sponsor

         4       yields.

         5                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yeah.  This is a

         6       plan identical to the bill we passed last year

         7       and vetoed by the Governor.

         8                      SENATOR KUHL:  That's correct.

         9                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President, on

        10       the bill.

        11                      We did pass this last year with

        12       only one dissent.  I notice that there were -

        13       there were some letters dated just a couple days

        14       ago in opposition, one from Oneida-Herkimer

        15       Solid Waste Authority which was sent to Senator

        16       Hoffmann, and one from the Onondaga County

        17       Resource Recovery Agency, again to Senator

        18       Hoffmann, and -- but aside from that, I don't

        19       seem to have anything else that's on the bill

        20       aside from the veto message.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Read the

        22       last section.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This











                                                             
2541

         1       act shall take effect immediately.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

         3       roll.

         4                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42, nays 3,

         6       Senators Espada, Gold and Leichter recorded in

         7       the negative.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

         9       is passed.

        10                      Senator Present.

        11                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        12       there comes that time when we stand at ease.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The

        14       Senate will stand at ease.

        15                      (The Senate stood at ease from

        16       1:51 to 2:50 p.m.)

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        18       Present.

        19                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        20       can we call up Calendar Number 552, please.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senate

        22       will come to order.  Secretary will read

        23       Calendar Number 552.











                                                             
2542

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 15,

         2       Calendar Number 552, by Senator Tully, Senate

         3       Bill Number 6775-A, an act to amend the Public

         4       Health Law.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         6       Gold.

         7                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President, if

         8       my distinguished colleague from Nassau would

         9       just give a brief explanation since it was an

        10       add on, at least to alert people as to which

        11       bill we're dealing with.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        13       Tully.

        14                      SENATOR TULLY:  Thank you, Mr.

        15       President.

        16                      This bill provides that there

        17       will be direct medical intervention at the most

        18       effective point in preventing HIV transmission

        19       to a child, the first prenatal visit during

        20       which the pregnant woman is counseled on HIV and

        21       offered HIV testing.

        22                      The amendments would add new

        23       requirements that, at the first prenatal visit











                                                             
2543

         1       and upon delivery for those who have had no

         2       prenatal care, every new mother would be

         3       informed, one, that a sample of the infant's

         4       blood as currently required by the state DOH may

         5       be tested for HIV along with other congenital

         6       diseases; two, that the HIV antibody test while

         7       used for health research purposes is not

         8       medically valid for a diagnosis of HIV infection

         9       in her own child, and three, medically

        10       appropriate tests will be conducted upon a

        11       mother's request in order to accurately

        12       determine and inform her of her HIV status or of

        13       that of her infant.

        14                      Basically, Mr. President, the

        15       current purpose of the existing study is to see

        16       if the mother has the HIV virus.  It does not

        17       test the baby, and the test is not done on every

        18       baby.  In 1988, they missed 10,500 babies

        19       because they couldn't get enough blood.  The

        20       current test is not a diagnostic test approved

        21       by the FDA but is a research test to acquire

        22       data.

        23                      This, Mr. President, will act to











                                                             
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         1       preserve the health of all of the infants in

         2       this state who were born with AIDS, roughly

         3       amounting to 1900 in this state out of the

         4       300,000 babies born each year.  Of that 1900,

         5       roughly 250 to 450 will be HIV-infected and

         6       that's approximately one HIV-infected baby born

         7       every day.  These infants could be prevented

         8       from receiving HIV from their mothers with this

         9       legislation, and I urge all my colleagues to

        10       join me in its support.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        12       Gold.

        13                      SENATOR GOLD:  Thank you, Mr.

        14       President.

        15                      Mr. President, there are certain

        16       catch words that are very politically sensitive

        17       today, as we all know, and I was watching

        18       television last night, and I saw some AIDS

        19       activists disrupting a town hall meeting of

        20       Mayor Giuliani.  We know that we've had

        21       incidents in this chamber, and I know that there

        22       isn't one person in government who isn't

        23       sensitive to the fact that AIDS and HIV and this











                                                             
2545

         1       whole issue is something that threatens

         2       everybody in our society, and we ought to be

         3       doing something about it.

         4                      Having said that, Senator Tully,

         5       I think there are certain things that ought to

         6       be out here.  First of all, there is a bill

         7       sponsored in this house, I believe by Senator

         8       Velella, and sponsored in the Assembly by

         9       Assemblywoman Mettie Mayersohn, which deals with

        10       the subject of testing and deals with the issue

        11       of whether or not, if a child has the HIV virus,

        12       it should be told to the mother whether

        13       treatment should be happening.

        14                      This is an issue that is debated

        15       as to whether or not, what is it, AZT, ATZ, does

        16       what its advocates say it does or whether or not

        17       it is more dangerous to give it to infants than

        18       not give it.  There was a television program I

        19       saw about a week ago where there was medical

        20       testimony being given which suggested that HIV

        21       alone doesn't even cause AIDS.  There was

        22       testimony given to the fact that, or the

        23       allegation that there have been people who have











                                                             
2546

         1       had AIDS who have been cured -- the word "cure"

         2       was used -- by a process that is being used and

         3       tested in Europe, but obviously it's always more

         4       difficult in America to get certain things

         5       tested.

         6                      Now, I say all of that, Senator

         7       Tully, because I'm distressed that we're

         8       debating your bill for only one reason.  I have

         9       no problem saying in public what I say behind

        10       your back, Senator Tully.  I think that this

        11       bill is a sincere effort on your part to deal

        12       with an issue, but I think that Assemblywoman

        13       Mayersohn and Senator Velella are just as

        14       sincerely involved in this, and I think that

        15       perhaps there ought to be some way of putting

        16       these bills together or having some middle

        17       ground.

        18                      The suggestion, I think, has been

        19       made, at least in the political rhetoric, that

        20       your bill is in some way a different answer to

        21       the problem of Assemblyman -- Assemblywoman

        22       Mayersohn.  She does not believe that.  She

        23       believes that it's -- that there is ground that











                                                             
2547

         1       is missing, so I really feel that it's a shame

         2       that we're debating it this way.  It's just too

         3       significant an issue to be, I believe,

         4       politicized, and I'm not suggesting you're doing

         5       that, Senator Tully.  I don't, you know, charge

         6       you with any -- anything other than good faith.

         7                      SENATOR TULLY:  Perhaps I can

         8       explain it to you a little better than I did

         9       before.

        10                      SENATOR GOLD:  If you're asking

        11       me to yield, it would be an honor.

        12                      SENATOR TULLY:  Thank you very

        13       much, Senator Gold.

        14                      This bill is not a compromise

        15       bill to any other piece of legislation pending

        16       in this state.  This bill stands on its own.  It

        17       does not deal with testing as other pieces of

        18       legislation do after the fact.  This bill is the

        19       first time in the AIDS epidemic that we can do

        20       something to prevent children from being born

        21       with HIV.

        22                      We're dealing here with the

        23       virus.  We're not dealing with the HIV antibody











                                                             
2548

         1       which some other legislation may discuss which

         2       deals with a research test which only tells one

         3       thing.  It says that the infant that they've

         4       tested, if they test all the infants -- and they

         5       don't -- it says if that infant is tested that

         6       there is an antibody which reflects that the

         7       mother may have an HIV antibody, in no way does

         8       it indicate that she has the virus and in no way

         9       does it tell you anything about the infant.

        10                      My legislation deals with the

        11       infant.  It's what you might call a "baby

        12       bill".  It's done during the course of

        13       pregnancy.  It has no relation whatsoever to any

        14       other piece of legislation, and I'm sure,

        15       Senator Gold, that you know that this bill is

        16       supported by just about every organization that

        17       deals with this very vital subject.  I can name

        18       them for you if that's significant to you, but I

        19       think you have them.  It would probably take

        20       another 15 minutes to name all of the

        21       organizations that support this piece of

        22       legislation.

        23                      Of greater significance is the











                                                             
2549

         1       fact that this legislation came out after the

         2       results of the federal AZT study whereas the

         3       other piece of legislation was in before it.

         4       This bill deals specifically with the health of

         5       the infants that could be born and possibly have

         6       contracted the AIDS virus, and it provides with

         7       the mother's consent that they can be tested for

         8       the virus, not for an antibody which means

         9       nothing other than the fact that maybe the

        10       mother could contract AIDS.

        11                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Mr.

        12       President.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        14       Oppenheimer.

        15                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  This is a

        16       bill that I strongly support, and that is sup

        17       ported by -- by many groups, most specifically

        18       the AIDS Council.

        19                      The importance of this bill is

        20       that the counseling and information on the

        21       benefits of HIV testing and of early treatment

        22       can reduce the risk of transmission to the new

        23       born.  There has been rather astounding results











                                                             
2550

         1       announced a couple of weeks ago from Washington

         2       that showed that in those cases -- and this was

         3       from the U. S. Center for Disease Control and

         4       Prevention -- that in those cases where they

         5       actually treated the affected HIV-positive

         6       woman, that in those cases using AZT during the

         7       pregnancy, if -- it is actually reducing the

         8       incidence of HIV, the transmission to the new

         9       borns at an absolutely astonishing rate of 67.5

        10       percent.

        11                      This is very new.  Until so

        12       recently we didn't realize this was possible or

        13       conceivable, but it is such exciting news, and

        14       we feel that women will voluntarily enter this

        15       program to have the testing done during their

        16       pregnancies, and that we are not only saving the

        17       lives of the children; we will be saving the

        18       state money and this is a win/win, and as

        19       Senator Tully, who has put this bill before us

        20       and done an excellent job, has already said,

        21       this is supported by just about every group

        22       involved in this issue in the state and indeed

        23       in the country.











                                                             
2551

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Read the

         2       last -- Senator?

         3                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Mr. President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         5       Velella.

         6                      SENATOR VELELLA:  I commend

         7       Senator Tully for putting together what I think

         8       is a good first step to addressing some of the

         9       problems that we're facing on the issue of

        10       testing for AIDS.  It's a good first step, but

        11       there's more that needs to be done, in my

        12       opinion.

        13                      This bill will make available

        14       counseling, will make available testing, and it

        15       probably will save some lives of children who

        16       would be exposed or who will develop the

        17       full-blown AIDS disease.

        18                      Right now, in New York State,

        19       under the current law, we test every baby that

        20       is born anonymously for AIDS.  That means that

        21       their blood is drawn, they're tested and they're

        22       tested for the virus, and that result is kept

        23       confidential.  It's called "blind testing".  The











                                                             
2552

         1       mother, no one, finds out if that test comes

         2       back positive for the virus and it's very

         3       important that -- I make it a very important

         4       issue that I have a bill that will reveal to the

         5       mother the results of that test.

         6                      And why do I think it's

         7       important?  It's important because there are

         8       three very basic things that will happen: One,

         9       if a child has the virus, in many cases they

        10       will reject it within the first several months

        11       of life unless that mother breast-feeds the

        12       child and reintroduces it through the breast

        13       feeding process, and there's medical evidence to

        14       show that that can happen.

        15                      Secondly, a child who has the

        16       virus should be treated in a different way.

        17       Their innoculation program is modified because

        18       they have this virus.  It doesn't make sense to

        19       shoot a live polio vaccine into a child that may

        20       be developing full-blown AIDS or may have that

        21       virus.  So a weakened form of the vaccine is put

        22       into place.

        23                      And thirdly, within that first











                                                             
2553

         1       month of life, that child should be receiving

         2       certain antibiotics so that they will not

         3       develop the pneumonia associated with children

         4       who have AIDS.  Those are three very important

         5       reasons why a parent should be made very much

         6       aware of the fact that the test has come back

         7       positive.

         8                      Communicable diseases are not

         9       strange to this Legislature.  Long before any of

        10       us were here, they were dealing with those types

        11       of diseases, whether it be tuberculosis,

        12       syphilis, venereal diseases, the various

        13       diseases that are communicable, and we've put

        14       some very good health law policies on the books

        15       and let's take a look at how we deal with other

        16       communicable diseases as opposed to AIDS,

        17       because I submit to you, we have a special

        18       category for AIDS.

        19                      AIDS is the first politically

        20       protected disease known to man.  When we talk

        21       about AIDS, everything else goes out the

        22       window.  All reason goes out the window.  We

        23       have to do the politically correct thing.  I











                                                             
2554

         1       submit that we have done some of the things for

         2       other diseases that we ought to be doing for

         3       AIDS.

         4                      Let's take a look at section 2308

         5       of the Public Health Law.  Every physician

         6       attending a pregnant woman in this state shall,

         7       not may, shall in the case of every pregnant

         8       woman so attended, take or cause to be taken a

         9       sample of blood from such woman at the time of

        10       first examination and submit such sample to an

        11       approved laboratory for standard serological

        12       tests for syphilis.

        13                      Section 2500, at the same time a

        14       blood sample is taken for a test for syphilis,

        15       every physician or authorized practitioner

        16       attending a pregnant woman in this state shall,

        17       in addition, submit or cause to be submitted

        18       such sample to an approved laboratory for a

        19       standard serological test for Hepatitis B.

        20                      Two major diseases, communicable

        21       diseases, mandated by law.  You must take blood

        22       and test for these and let the people know they

        23       have it, not for AIDS.  Even for tuberculosis,











                                                             
2555

         1       the Commissioner shall have full power and

         2       authority to make or cause to be made such

         3       laboratory tests or X-ray examinations as, in

         4       his judgment, may be desirable to detect

         5       tuberculosis.

         6                      We even provide in the law that

         7       if they're -- someone is suspected of these

         8       diseases, they may be detained until the results

         9       are known but not for AIDS.  That's treated

        10       specially.

        11                      Article 27 of the Public Health

        12       Law devotes 39 pages to what we can't do about

        13       AIDS and only two pages to diabetes, burn care,

        14       birth defects, hypertension and a battery of

        15       other diseases.  But 39 pages on what we can't

        16       do about AIDS.

        17                      Why?  Once again, I submit

        18       because it's the only politically protected

        19       disease.  I heard Senator Waldon the other day

        20       talk in this chamber when we discussed the

        21       fingerprinting bill, that some minority people

        22       and some poor people would be intimidated by

        23       fingerprinting, they might not seek out the help











                                                             
2556

         1       that they're entitled to because they were

         2       intimidated by the process.  Right now, if you

         3       ask someone for their voluntary consent, you'd

         4       have to have them fill out this form which is

         5       the most intimidating thing I've seen:  Pages of

         6       explanations telling you that you're likely to

         7       be discriminated against if this test comes back

         8       positive, in your housing, your employment or

         9       other means of discrimination may be employed

        10       against you.

        11                      That's what you ask a woman to

        12       sign when she takes the voluntary test for

        13       AIDS.  Every other disease is this simple form.

        14       You just list the test.  The doctor gives his

        15       consent, advises that he's explained the test,

        16       what the -- what the repercussions would be and

        17       the person signs the form.  Not for AIDS.  We

        18       have this form, because we have to politically

        19       protect it.

        20                      This voluntary program is falling

        21       flat on its face.  Let me tell you what's

        22       happening in 26 hospitals, targeted hospitals.

        23       All of our voluntary programs in hospitals like











                                                             
2557

         1       Albany Medical Center, Bellevue, Beth Israel,

         2       Bronx-Lebanon, Bronx Municipal, Brookdale, Coney

         3       Island, Harlem, Kings County Memorial, Lutheran

         4       Medical, Mount Sinai, Nassau County Medical

         5       Center, New York hospital, North Central Bronx,

         6       Presbyterian, Central Bronx, and on and on, 24

         7       of the top targeted hospitals from July 1, 1993

         8       to September 30, 1993, the voluntary testing

         9       program with all the counseling that we've put

        10       in with good intentions, all the advice by the

        11       professionals yielded 36 positive HIV tests.

        12                      In those same hospitals at the

        13       same time, the same period of time in those

        14       hospitals, the blind testing, the testing of

        15       every baby born in that hospital showed us that

        16       there were 226 babies born in that hospital that

        17       tested positive, only 36 of which positive tests

        18       were the result of our positive -- of our

        19       voluntary program for administering the test.

        20                      That means that 84.1 percent of

        21       those babies went home with a positive reaction

        22       and not knowing that they would have the

        23       possibility of developing full-blown AIDS, going











                                                             
2558

         1       back home and possibly being breast-fed by their

         2       mothers and reintroducing the virus, going on a

         3       regular innoculation schedule when they should

         4       be on a special one and going on a program that

         5       would not protect them against the dangerous

         6       pneumonia that they could develop.

         7                      Probably the only thing wrong

         8       with my bill is, I think it makes too much

         9       common sense.  It says that, if we test a baby

        10       as we're doing now, the mother ought to be

        11       told.  The adoptive parents ought to be told or

        12       the foster parents.  It maintains all the other

        13       protections, all the other requirements for

        14       confidentiality, but I think that we are being

        15       negligent and being very narrow-minded when we

        16       yield to certain political pressures that make

        17       this a politically protected disease.

        18                      Senator Tully, I commend you on

        19       your bill.  It goes a long way for taking a

        20       first step, but I'm hopeful that we'll see some

        21       more steps taken in the near future, and I urge

        22       your committee to look at it more carefully.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator











                                                             
2559

         1       Gold.

         2                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yeah.  Would

         3       Senator Tully -- Senator Velella yield to a

         4       question?

         5                      SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         7       Velella yields.

         8                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator, these

         9       questions are not by way of hostile debate.

        10       They're by way of trying to just get some in

        11       formation out on the floor.  Do you know what

        12       the percentages are of these newborn babies that

        13        -- who, if not treated in any way, cure

        14       themselves within the first 18 months? I'm told

        15       that if there -

        16                      SENATOR VELELLA:  I think it

        17       would probably be more than the majority.

        18                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yeah, it's a

        19       substantial number, isn't that right?

        20                      SENATOR VELELLA:  It's a

        21       substantial number.  I think it's within about

        22       the first eight months, is it, about the first

        23       eight months.  Suzi, you can answer yourself if











                                                             
2560

         1       you like.

         2                      SENATOR GOLD:  I don't know.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         4       Oppenheimer, do you wish to be recognized?

         5                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Thank you,

         6       Mr. President.  Within the first five to six

         7       months, the vast majority, 65 to 75 percent.

         8                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Well, a

         9       substantial or vast amount will reject these

        10       antibodies on their own natural progression.

        11       They reject the birth mother's antibodies unless

        12       they're reintroduced through breast-feeding.

        13                      SENATOR GOLD:  Will Senator

        14       Velella yield to another question?

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        16       Velella yields.

        17                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator, I

        18       understand the concept of Senator Tully's bill

        19       and don't have any problem with it, but I'm

        20       curious, if today we have these hospitals doing

        21       pilot programs and they are unsuccessful, I

        22       think your figure was 84 percent of the time -

        23                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Well, at those











                                                             
2561

         1       those targeted hospitals.

         2                      SENATOR GOLD:  -- in convincing

         3       people to participate in what seems to me to be

         4       a similar kind of consent to the Tully bill,

         5       what makes us think then that the Tully bill,

         6       even very well motivated, will work if people

         7       are going to turn it down?  What are we doing

         8       wrong now in the educational and hospital, and

         9       so on, studies?

        10                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Well, there has

        11       been some degree of substantial success in

        12       Harlem Hospital, although it's not the success

        13       that I would have liked to see.  Senator Tully's

        14       bill -- and he can explain it himself I'm sure

        15        -- encourages a wider use of this, a more

        16       aggressive use of this -- of this testing

        17       process, and perhaps he can better explain his

        18       own, but it will encourage -- and let me tell

        19       you, either bill alone, I feel, is inadequate.

        20                      Certainly we want to encourage

        21       the prenatal testing because that's where the

        22       latest medical results are showing the most

        23       impact can be had with AZT treatment, but there











                                                             
2562

         1       is still a gap after the baby is born that I am

         2       trying to plug.  This goes the longest way

         3       possible to doing the prenatal treatment.

         4                      My bill addresses the post-birth

         5       system that I think is definitely lacking and

         6       needs the follow-up punch.  Either bill on their

         7       own isn't enough, in my opinion.

         8                      SENATOR GOLD:  And will you

         9       yield, Senator, to one last question?

        10                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

        11                      SENATOR GOLD:  There was a

        12       comment made, and I think it was a part of the

        13       television show that I'm referring to, which

        14       distressed me, and I'm not sure whether it's

        15       accurate, and I'm not sure whether you know

        16       whether it's accurate or not.

        17                      The comment was made that AZT

        18       itself is very dangerous, that you've got to

        19       wear gloves to handle it.  It's got all these

        20       poison notations on it, and the implication was

        21       made, I think it was more than an implication, I

        22       think the statement was made that in treating

        23       the unborn fetuses or the mother during











                                                             
2563

         1       pregnancy, that that itself was causing deaths

         2       to the fetuses.

         3                      Now, I've never heard that.

         4                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Senator, I've

         5       never heard that; I've never heard it.

         6                      SENATOR GOLD:  I've never heard

         7       that, and I do not believe it to be the fact,

         8       but I'm wondering whether you know anything

         9       about that accusation.

        10                      SENATOR VELELLA:  I've never

        11       heard it, but let me tell you, once again when

        12       discussing this issue, there is a lot of

        13       political emotion here.  There were some wild

        14       charges around about Senator Tully's bill, wild

        15       charges around about what's going to happen with

        16       my bill, and this certainly, in my mind, unless

        17       I see something different, and I've tried to

        18       read up as much as I can is one of those wild

        19       charges made.  It has no substance.

        20                      What do those wild charges mean?

        21       What is it going to do?  It's sort of like

        22       saying when a person has cancer and goes into

        23       chemotherapy, you're introducing poisons into











                                                             
2564

         1       their system and they're going to have very

         2       negative reactions, but you're saving their life

         3       probably in the long run.  That's the only

         4       analogy I can see.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         6       Jones.

         7                      SENATOR JONES:  First of all, I

         8       would like to say I don't disagree with many of

         9       the points that Senator Velella just made.  If

        10       we lived in an ideal world, it would be treated

        11       as a communicable disease as any other, and we

        12       wouldn't be be having this discussion.

        13                      But nevertheless I want to

        14       commend Senator Tully for this bill that he has

        15       before us today, and I'm glad you mentioned

        16       Harlem Hospital because I personally have had

        17       the opportunity because of my own experience

        18       with emergency medicine, to visit there and to

        19       meet with Dr. Cooper and to look at the results

        20       that they have had there with voluntary

        21       agreement by the mothers to testing, and so it

        22       is successful there, and I guess I would have to

        23       say we need to look at what they're doing











                                                             
2565

         1       differently than the hospitals that we're

         2       talking about that aren't successful.

         3                      But I think the point that that

         4       has changed is the study that has said AZT will

         5       help prenatally.  Prevention, no matter what

         6       we're talking about, whether it be disease or

         7       education, is certainly the way we want to go.

         8       We've learned that we can operate on babies in

         9       the uterus.  We can change blood supplies, so if

        10       we can indeed use this and prevent these babies

        11       from being born with the HIV, then I certainly

        12       think we need to put as much effort as possible

        13       there.

        14                      I don't think voting for this

        15       bill really has any bearing on whether or not

        16       you, at some other time, would support Senator

        17       Velella's bill, but I think this is an excellent

        18       bill, and I commend you, Senator Tully, and I

        19       certainly am very supportive of it and your

        20       efforts.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        22       Paterson.

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,











                                                             
2566

         1       I think it's kind of a well established fact at

         2       this point that only 12 percent of those people

         3       who are treated for chemotherapy, of certain

         4       types of cancer, are actually able to survive

         5       and at the same time 15 percent of the people

         6       who are treated actually contract other forms of

         7       cancer.  And so I point that out to try to state

         8       that when we're looking at cures or proposed

         9       treatments for different viruses, that we really

        10       have to look at the fact that many -- much of

        11       our information is coming from a source that is

        12       certainly too close to many of the companies

        13       that profit off of these types of ventures for

        14       there to be a real and just survey.

        15                      So even this most recent study

        16       that demonstrates that AZT has been helpful in

        17       treating cases where the mother tested positive

        18       for the HIV virus and that it was effective in

        19       the treatment such that the child was born

        20       testing negative for the HIV virus is something

        21       that may be a step in the right direction, but I

        22       think in many respects is being regarded as an

        23       absolute fact when it was a study that only











                                                             
2567

         1       tested 900 women and could, in many ways, be

         2       challenged by other medical evidence.

         3                      I'm not saying that the study is

         4       wrong.  I'm just saying that every time there is

         5       any kind of a study that demonstrates the

         6       slightest bit of improvement in conditions for

         7       people who have become victims of the HIV virus,

         8       there is national publication over these types

         9       of issues when, in fact, there are people

        10       walking around and the New York City Department

        11       of Retrobiology, the Bureau of Immunology, has

        12       tested people who now test HIV-negative who at

        13       times tested HIV-positive; and so I'm saying I

        14       would think that if that were the case that

        15       there would be national headlines about who

        16       these people are, but that the objection may be

        17       to the type of treatment that they have

        18       preferred, not AZT, DDI or DDC.

        19                      I challenge anyone in this

        20       chamber to demonstrate to me any person who has

        21       been treated with AZT for a period lasting over

        22       three and a half years who has not suffered

        23       immeasurable damage to their immune system.











                                                             
2568

         1       Well, why wouldn't that be the case?  We're

         2       treating an immuno-depressant virus with an

         3       immuno-acute drug, and so in my opinion all AZT

         4       does is it elevates the T-cell count of the

         5       individual who is afflicted which, in many

         6       cases, delays what is the impending fatality but

         7       has never been shown and has never really ever

         8       purported by anyone to have demonstrated any

         9       kind of curing.

        10                      So when we start talking about

        11       what we can do for people who have contracted

        12       the HIV virus, Senator Velella is correct that

        13       in cases where the baby sero-converts from

        14       HIV-positive to HIV-negative within 18 months,

        15       which I think some of the statistics run as high

        16       as 65 percent of those babies doing that, the

        17       breast-feeding of the child would certainly

        18       contribute to a fatal medical situation because,

        19       as Senator Velella very eloquently pointed out,

        20       the mother is reinfecting her own child.

        21                      So that would be a very strong

        22       argument for this information becoming

        23       available.  But when we start talking about











                                                             
2569

         1       needing to test so that we can start to provide

         2       medical treatment, I find that to be in some

         3       respects hypocritical if we are not going to

         4       take a hard look at what those treatment -

         5       proposed treatments may be and how in many

         6       respects, we have taken AZT which was actually a

         7       drug that was found not to be a good cure for

         8       cancer, that was put into effect in the shortest

         9       period of time that the American Medical

        10       Association ever validated any such substance

        11       and has now been operating as the main drug to

        12       treat people with the HIV virus for over eight

        13       and a half years that we have not really looked

        14       into any other kind of treatment and anyone who

        15       suggests any other kind of treatment is treated

        16       like a pariah, and I think throughout history we

        17       have found that there are men and women who took

        18       first steps down new roads armed with nothing

        19       but their own vision, and we're having that

        20       problem today.

        21                      There have been too many periods

        22       in history that every new invention was de

        23       nounced and every new opinion was in many ways











                                                             
2570

         1       thwarted because we as a society were not even

         2       interested in treating diseases but rather

         3       created political implications to what the

         4       diseases were, and we had that problem earlier

         5       this century with tuberculosis.

         6                      So while I will vote for this

         7       bill and would even consider Senator Velella's

         8       bill, I think that it is for all of the zeal and

         9       the energy that I'm hearing here today for

        10       talking about how to test people, how can we

        11       really test people when the reason that we're

        12       getting such a low response to voluntary

        13       testing, Senator Velella, I would suggest is

        14       because people believe, and it is probably true

        15       at this point that we do not know a cure for the

        16       HIV virus, so in some respects other than the

        17       fact that you would be reinfecting other people,

        18       there is almost no positive reason to actually

        19       know whether you have it or whether you do not

        20       have it.

        21                      But what we can possibly do

        22       through this discussion is to start talking

        23       about giving opportunities to many of the health











                                                             
2571

         1       care investigators which the federal government

         2       sponsors and has 945 of them right now, to

         3       really start looking into whether or not we can

         4       work at trying to eradicate this problem, what

         5       has become a tragic problem in this society.

         6                      But I would suggest that I have

         7       been in contact with researchers on this subject

         8       who have said that they would like to try to

         9       treat people who are in AIDS hospices, who are

        10       in obviously a situation where even our own

        11       medical communities feel that they have been

        12       rendered in such a state that they cannot be

        13       helped by any cure that we know of, and perhaps

        14       try some other remedies.

        15                      I am not suggesting that there is

        16       anybody in this country that knows a cure.  I am

        17       only proposing that our scope of investigation

        18       has not been wide enough, and you would think

        19       that it would be just the reverse when we

        20       realize that we now have 300,000 cases

        21       documented in this state, that we have 52,000

        22       cases documented in New York and half of them

        23       were documented after 1990, meaning all the











                                                             
2572

         1       cases up to 1990 were doubled in the last four

         2       years.

         3                      I think it is a significant issue

         4       that compels us to act.  I'm happy that both

         5       Senators have presented what would be their

         6       initial approaches to how to treat it, but if we

         7       are going to stand on principle in these

         8       discussions, let's start discussing the

         9       principle of how we have, in many ways, been

        10       bamboozled into thinking that there are only a

        11       couple of treatments for this virus and

        12       impending disease when there are other

        13       treatments that cannot get a public hearing.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        15       Tully.

        16                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Excuse me.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        18       Velella.

        19                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Would Senator

        20       Paterson yield to a question?

        21                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Sure.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        23       Paterson, would you yield?











                                                             
2573

         1                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Senator

         2       Paterson, would you agree with me and I agree

         3       with a lot that you said, that regardless of the

         4       modality of treatment or the choices available,

         5       the first step is in ascertaining out whether a

         6       person does or does not have AIDS and letting

         7       them know whether they have the disease and that

         8       they should then be trying to seek out the best

         9       available attention.

        10                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Without

        11       question, Senator.

        12                      SENATOR VELELLA:  And that either

        13       one of these bills both try to do that.  That's

        14       what I wanted to point out.  Thank you.

        15                      SENATOR PATERSON:  I am in

        16       complete agreement with that, Senator.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        18       Tully.

        19                      SENATOR TULLY:  Yes, Mr.

        20       President.

        21                      I had not intended to prolong the

        22       debate because I felt that this subject was so

        23       significant and the support was so unanimous











                                                             
2574

         1       that we wouldn't have to go into it once I made

         2       the initial statement that I made at the opening

         3       of my remarks, that this was not a compromise

         4       bill.

         5                      It is definitely not a compromise

         6       bill.  It is one that comes from the Health

         7       Committee, from the chairman of the Health

         8       Committee, and after a great deal of research,

         9       and I now will indicate those who support the

        10       bill because those who support the bill are far

        11       more knowledgeable than I am or any of those who

        12       spoke in this chamber today.

        13                      Supported by the Hospital

        14       Association of the state of New York; the

        15       American College of Obstetricians and

        16       Gynecologists; the New York State Nurses'

        17       Association, the American College of Nurse

        18       Midwives; the New York City Health and Hospitals

        19       Corporation; the Nassau-Suffolk Hospital

        20       Council, the Bellevue Hospital Community Board,

        21       the League of Women Voters; Family Planning

        22       Advocates; the Community Family Planning

        23       Council; Statewide Youth Advocacy; the Center











                                                             
2575

         1       for Reproductive Law and Policy; the Federation

         2       of Protestant Welfare Agencies; Positively

         3       Pediatrics, a local organization for parents of

         4       children with AIDS; the National Association of

         5       Social Workers, the New York State AIDS Advisory

         6       Council; the AIDS Council of Northeastern New

         7       York; the Nassau County HIV Commission, the New

         8       York AIDS Coalition; the Long Island Association

         9       for AIDS Care; the Rochester Area Task Force on

        10       AIDS; the Central New York HIV Care Network; the

        11       Black Leadership Commission on AIDS; Gay Men's

        12       Health Crisis, and the following groups of

        13       national physicians in favor of mandatory

        14       counseling and against mandatory testing:  The

        15       American Academy of Pediatrics; the American

        16       Medical Association, the American Public Health

        17       Association, and the National Academy of

        18       Sciences Institute of Medicine.

        19                      These people, as I said, have had

        20       dealings with this monstrous problem.  They're

        21       far more knowledgeable.  I think they know

        22       whether a bill is, as some people have said,

        23       politically correct, and they know that this











                                                             
2576

         1       bill is medically correct.  It's the thing to

         2       do.  I'm not speaking of any other legislation.

         3       I speak of mine only, but there is misin

         4       formation that's been given today.

         5                      Senator Velella indicated that

         6       the babies are tested for the virus under the

         7       research tests today.  They are not tested for

         8       the virus.  They're tested for antibodies.  He

         9       also said that it was possible for the child to

        10       reject the virus.  That's absolutely medically

        11       impossible.  If you have the virus, you die,

        12       period, case closed.  That's basic understanding

        13       of the issue.

        14                      There's never been a case of an

        15       AIDS child contracting polio.  Harlem Hospital

        16       has one hundred percent, not 99, one hundred

        17       percent, it's identification of infected

        18       infants.  75 to 80 percent of those who test

        19       positive in this particular situation with the

        20       current testing are fine.

        21                      AZT is definitely, Senator Gold,

        22       extremely toxic, but it's the only game in

        23       town.  It's the only thing that helps those who











                                                             
2577

         1       are infected today.  More importantly, and to be

         2       understood with respect to this legislation

         3       which does what it should do early, it precludes

         4       HIV, the antibodies.  It precludes the situation

         5       of the virus and transmission by breast

         6       feeding.

         7                      Under some thinking, people would

         8       say, well, we'll let you know whether or not it

         9       can be transmitted by breast-feeding, but 30

        10       days later, that's too late.  It's already too

        11       late.

        12                      This is a baby saving bill.  It's

        13       not merely an identification situation after

        14       birth.  It's very significant that the fact is

        15       that there are tests for the virus.  They

        16       haven't been mentioned today.  It's the PCR

        17       test, and it's usually given one month after

        18       birth defects if the virus is in the blood, not

        19       an antibody, but the virus.

        20                      This bill is timely.  It's

        21       important.  It has no reference to any other

        22       legislation.  It's unanimously supported.  There

        23       is no known opposition to the bill, and I











                                                             
2578

         1       believe it should be passed.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         3       Stavisky.

         4                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Mr. President,

         5       I'd like to ask Senator Velella if he would

         6       yield for a question and then -

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         8       Velella yields.

         9                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  And then

        10       Senator Tully.

        11                      Senator Velella, is it your

        12       opinion that, if this legislation passes, that

        13       it will preclude the likelihood that subsequent

        14       legislation will be sought in this session or in

        15        -- or shortly thereafter in the form of

        16       universal testing for babies to determine

        17       whether they are infected with the AIDS virus?

        18                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Senator, it's

        19       my understanding and, Senator Tully, in his

        20       giving the names, he could have added my name

        21       with those supporting the legislation.  I will

        22       support this legislation and on its merits it is

        23       a good first step, as I said in my opening











                                                             
2579

         1       remarks.  I don't believe it precludes other

         2       legislation.  No bill on this floor precludes

         3       legislation following up or changing or

         4       enhancing a bill.  That's why we have chapter

         5       amendments some time.

         6                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Just to

         7       continue, Senator Velella.  As you know, Senator

         8       Velella, your legislation and Assemblywoman

         9       Mayersohn's companion bill have had widespread

        10       support from the advocates who believe that the

        11       child cannot give informed consent, that the

        12       baby needs to be protected and universal testing

        13       of the baby is the only way that you can deal

        14       with what is a human tragedy of enormous

        15       proportions.

        16                      Do you feel that, in any sense,

        17       that the momentum for your legislation will be

        18       undercut by the adoption of this bill?

        19                      SENATOR VELELLA:  No, Senator, I

        20       don't and as a matter of fact, I think this

        21       legislation has, in some degree, given me an

        22       opportunity to provide some impetus for our

        23       legislation and will increase the awareness of











                                                             
2580

         1       the house and the members of the Senate and the

         2       Assembly hopefully, that there are some follow

         3       up provisions that some members think will

         4       strengthen this provision.

         5                      I do want to, while I'm on my

         6       feet, apologize for misspeaking.  I am not as

         7       familiar with the terminology as perhaps some of

         8       my colleagues.  I used the word "virus" rather

         9       than "antibody", so I meant to say "antibody".

        10                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.  I

        11       have no further question of Senator Tully.  I

        12       think Senator Velella has expressed the position

        13       sufficiently.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        15       Paterson.

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Will Senator

        17       Tully yield for a question?

        18                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Yes, I will,

        19       Mr. President.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        21       yields.

        22                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator, I

        23       think that there are often people who have a











                                                             
2581

         1       bunch of outrageous ideas who probably profiteer

         2       on diseases such as this, and it's outstanding

         3       that some of the consumer advocates in this

         4       state, certainly the new public advocate of New

         5       York, Mark Green when he was consumer protection

         6       commissioner, for exposing these people for the

         7       charlatans that they are, but at the same time,

         8       I was a little disappointed to hear you say that

         9       AZT is the only game in town when, in fact, I

        10       don't know of a person that ever had -- was

        11       diagnosed to have full-blown AIDS or even was

        12       diagnosed as having the HIV virus that ever

        13       survived after being treated with AZT which is

        14       not only a highly toxic drug but actually

        15       exacerbates the same virus that it's treating,

        16       and so while I think I understood what you were

        17       trying to say, I was just going to ask you if

        18       you would rephrase it because it certainly

        19       promotes a feeling that this is a drug that does

        20       anything other than perhaps delay an inevitable

        21       circumstance, but in delaying the inevitable

        22       circumstance, it has been perpetuated on society

        23       to such a degree that it is almost impossible to











                                                             
2582

         1       discuss any other alternqtive to an extent that,

         2       if anyone even suggests one as opposed to the,

         3       quote, "only game in town," it then becomes

         4       incumbent on these individuals to perhaps have

         5       their medical license challenged or, in fact, be

         6       exposed themselves as if they are charlatans

         7       when, in fact, they are researchers who are

         8       trying very hard, as we all are, to find

         9       something that will hopefully reverse this

        10       deadly illness.

        11                      And so I just submit to you that

        12       the discussion of AZT is one that has been

        13       promoted to a higher level at a point when

        14       consumers have been charged outrageous amounts

        15       to receive AZT, when a number of pharmaceutical

        16       companies have profiteered very immeasurably for

        17       a drug that has not yet cured one person and

        18       which is -- which is pretty much understood to

        19       be something that only influences the T-cell

        20       count in the body.

        21                      SENATOR TULLY:  Thank you,

        22       Senator.

        23                      Mr. President.











                                                             
2583

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         2       Tully.

         3                      SENATOR TULLY:  I stand by the

         4       statement that it's the only game in town

         5       because I was making reference to the fact that

         6       this AZT dramatically reduces transmission of

         7       HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, from infected

         8       mothers to their newborns.

         9                      Now, this is not my statement.

        10       This is the statement of Dr. Harold W. Jaffe, an

        11       epidemiologist and the top scientist on HIV at

        12       the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

        13       in Atlanta.  He clearly stated that AZT and the

        14       testing of the federal test is the first

        15       indication that mother-to-child transmission of

        16       HIV can be decreased, if not prevented, and it

        17       will provide a real impetus for identifying more

        18       HIV-infected women during pregnancies so that

        19       they could consider the benefit of AZT treatment

        20       to themselves and their children, and that is

        21       the impetus of this legislation.  Do it early

        22       on.  Don't do it after it's too late.  Do it for

        23       medically necessary purposes, period.











                                                             
2584

         1                      SENATOR GOLD:  Last section.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Read the

         3       last section.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         5       act shall take effect on the first day of the

         6       first month following the 90th day after it

         7       shall have become a law.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

         9       roll.  Senator Gold to explain his vote.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        12       Gold.

        13                      SENATOR GOLD:  Thank you, Mr.

        14       President.

        15                      I unquestionably am going to

        16       support the bill, Senator Tully, and I also want

        17       to take the opportunity to congratulate Senator

        18       Velella and Assemblywoman Mayersohn because this

        19       is an issue that really is overwhelming.  We

        20       should be doing things about it, and thank God

        21       we have a Nettie Mayersohn and you, Senator

        22       Tully and Senator Velella, to work on it.

        23                      But I want to say one last











                                                             
2585

         1       thing.  Senator Paterson, I heard every word you

         2       said, and I'm glad you're saying it.  I really

         3       am.  I think there are a lot of things being

         4       said on both sides which are questionable.  I'm

         5       not a doctor, and I don't see any doctors around

         6       in the room, but there's no doubt in my mind,

         7       Senator Paterson, that there are many times in

         8       this country where people are killed because

         9       that is good for somebody's economics and maybe

        10       we'll get to a point in history where that won't

        11       happen.

        12                      I unquestionably believe that

        13       there are things available called alternative

        14       medicine and other ideas in the medical

        15       profession which are not under any label, that

        16       could save lives and which aren't allowed to be

        17       processed properly, because it doesn't fit into

        18       certain political and financial schemes.

        19                      So Senator Padavan -- Paterson,

        20       I'm glad you said what you said.  I vote for the

        21       bill.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        23       Stavisky to explain his vote.











                                                             
2586

         1                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Mr. President,

         2       I rise to explain my vote on the following

         3       basis: Informed consent is an excellent concept,

         4       but no one can give informed consent for an

         5       infant.  That infant, once born, has the right

         6       to medical care and treatment that any other

         7       living human being possesses, and it seems to me

         8       that, because of ideology, sometimes selfish

         9       ideology, we are failing to consider the

        10       ramifications of this tragic disease and the

        11       inability of an infant to give informed

        12       consent.

        13                      What if the mother, after all the

        14       counseling, still fails to give that informed

        15       consent in behalf of the child in behalf of

        16       testing?  What then?  This legislation goes part

        17       of the way, but I could not in good conscience

        18       vote for this bill with the feeling that it is

        19       the last word by this Legislature on this issue,

        20       and I urge Senator Tully and his colleagues on

        21       the Health Committee to consider the

        22       ramifications of universal and routine testing

        23       after birth in addition to the legislation that











                                                             
2587

         1       we are passing today.  The two together will

         2       make a package that perhaps will provide some

         3       partial remedy to this great tragedy.

         4                      I vote in the affirmative.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         6       Stavisky in the affirmative.

         7                      Senator Paterson.

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

         9       I just would like to advise my colleagues that I

        10       would say the same thing that Senator Tully

        11       said, had I been provided that information, and

        12       I think that that is correct, that is what the

        13       study said, and Senator Tully is known as an

        14       outstanding health care advocate and there have

        15       to be some issues that we discuss in this

        16       chamber where we rely on the facts that are

        17       produced from studies and maybe this is a

        18       cynical remark, Senator Tully, but it's

        19       interesting to me that nine years after they

        20       started using AZT, they finally found a study

        21       that said that it does something for -- that

        22       somebody can find something positive about it

        23       because the drug has been under such criticism,











                                                             
2588

         1       and finally that criticism is coming to

         2       fruition.

         3                      I'm not going to accuse anyone of

         4       falsifying a study, but what I'm going to say

         5       that reality has a way of following perception.

         6       People want to believe it so they believe it, so

         7       rather than referring you to any documents that

         8       I can produce right now to discredit the study,

         9       I would just refer you to Hans Christian

        10       Anderson who wrote The Emperor's New Clothes,

        11       and what I'm saying is very much like what

        12       Senator Gold is saying, that the ideas of

        13       alternative therapy have been so preempted and

        14       so diminished and so discredited that we don't

        15       even discuss them.

        16                      The fact is that a couple years,

        17       a few years ago, the Kenyan government said that

        18       they had a cure or a proposal for the HIV virus

        19       known as Chemeron, and a number of African

        20       American leaders went to Kenya to look into this

        21       treatment.  The fact is that the treatment

        22       really doesn't help anybody that has the HIV

        23       virus any more than AZT does, but it became very











                                                             
2589

         1       popular in the black community to talk about

         2       this because it would have been so wonderful had

         3       the Kenya government and Kenya researchers come

         4       up with a cure that would have helped this

         5       virus.  But the mistake that many leaders in the

         6       African-American community made was because it

         7       seemed so wonderful that there had been this

         8       proposal they latched onto the cure because it

         9       was fashionable and it would have sounded very

        10       great if that had been the cure.  But meanwhile

        11       the medical evidence, time after time, was

        12       demonstrating that Chemeron was not a cure for

        13       the HIV virus, and it should never be an issue

        14       of race.  It should never be an issue of class,

        15       and those who supported it now wish they hadn't

        16       because they got behind something that had not

        17       been medically tested.

        18                      All I'm saying to my colleagues

        19       today is that we have been for so long enduring

        20       this drug that still has not cured one person

        21       and they finally found one study that an

        22       epidemiologist who is of great credential stands

        23       behind and all of a sudden now, we may have 15











                                                             
2590

         1       studies that show that that's not the case, but

         2       no one will listen to it because we've already

         3       institutionalized it, and what I'm saying is

         4       that that's what happened to AZT and DDI in the

         5       first place.  They became institutionalized

         6       because somebody came up with a study that the

         7       American Medical Association approved so quickly

         8       that it would make your head spin.

         9                      So all I'm asking everyone here

        10       is to keep your minds open to possible cures and

        11       I vote in support of this bill.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        13       Paterson in the affirmative.  Results.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

        16       is passed.

        17                      Senator Present.

        18                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        19       would you call Senator Volker, please.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        21       Volker.

        22                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Mr. President,

        23       I'd like to call a meeting of -- immediate











                                                             
2591

         1       meeting of the Codes Committee in Room 332 for

         2       the purpose of reporting one bill which is a

         3       group of extenders that have run out or are

         4       about to run out on the 15th of April.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:

         6       Immediate meeting of the Codes Committee, Room

         7       332.

         8                      Senator Present.

         9                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        10       can we return to reports of standing

        11       committees.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:

        13       Secretary will read.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

        15       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        16       following bills directly for third reading:

        17                      Senate Bill Number 7671, by

        18       Senator Stafford, an act to amend the State

        19       Finance Law and the Public Authorities Law, in

        20       relation to making technical corrections

        21       relating to certain professional contracts.

        22                      Also Senate Bill Number -- Senate

        23       Bill Number 7682, by the Committee on Rules, an











                                                             
2592

         1       act making an appropriation for the payment of

         2       debt service obligations to the local

         3       government.

         4                      Senate Bill Number 7681, by the

         5       Committee on Rules, an act to provide for

         6       payments to municipalities.

         7                      Senate Bill Number 7684, by the

         8       Committee on Rules, an act making an

         9       appropriation for the support of government.

        10                      Also Senate Bill Number 7683, by

        11       the Committee on Rules, an act making an

        12       appropriation for the support of government.

        13                      All bills reported directly for

        14       third reading.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Without

        16       objection, third reading.

        17                      Senator Present.

        18                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        19       will you call up Calendar 578.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:

        21       Secretary will read Calendar 578.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       578, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate











                                                             
2593

         1       Bill Number 7681, an act to provide for payments

         2       to municipalities.

         3                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         4       I understand there's two messages at the desk

         5       applying to this bill, and I move we accept

         6       them.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  All

         8       those in favor of accepting the message, signify

         9       by saying aye.

        10                      (Response of "Aye.")

        11                      Opposed nay.

        12                      (There was no response. )

        13                      The message is accepted.  Read

        14       the last section.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        16       act shall take effect immediately.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

        18       roll.

        19                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50, nays

        21       one, Senator Maltese recorded in the negative.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

        23       is passed.











                                                             
2594

         1                      Senator Present.

         2                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Will you call

         3       up Calendar 579.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:

         5       Secretary will read Calendar 579.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       579, by the Senate Committee on rules, Senate

         8       Bill Number 7682, an act making an appropriation

         9       for the payment of debt service applications.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        11       Present.

        12                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        13       I understand there's a message of necessity and

        14       a message of -- making the appropriation at the

        15       desk.  I move that we accept them.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  All

        17       those in favor of accepting the message?

        18                      (Response of "Aye.")

        19                      Opposed nay.

        20                      (There was no response. )

        21                      The message is accepted.

        22                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Last section.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Read the











                                                             
2595

         1       last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         3       act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

         5       roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

         9       is passed.

        10                      Senator Present.

        11                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        12       can we call up Calendar 580, please.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:

        14       Secretary will read Calendar 580.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        16       580, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate

        17       Bill Number 7683, an act making appropriation

        18       for the support of government.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

        20       Present.

        21                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        22       I understand there's a message of necessity and

        23       a message making the appropriation at the desk.











                                                             
2596

         1       I move we accept it.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  All

         3       those in favor of accepting the message?

         4                      (Response of "Aye.")

         5                      Those opposed nay.

         6                      (There was no response. )

         7                      The message is accepted.  Read

         8       the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        10       act shall take effect immediately.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

        12       roll.

        13                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

        16       is passed.

        17                      Senator Present.

        18                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        19       can we call up Calendar 581, please.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:

        21       Secretary will read Calendar 581.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       581, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate











                                                             
2597

         1       Bill Number 7684, an act making appropriation

         2       for the support of government.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senator

         4       Present.

         5                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         6       I move that we accept the message of necessity

         7       and the message making the appropriation which

         8       is at the desk.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  All

        10       those in favor of accepting the message signify

        11       by saying aye.

        12                      (Response of "Aye.")

        13                      Opposed nay.

        14                      (There was no response. )

        15                      The message is accepted.  Read

        16       the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        18       act shall take effect immediately.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

        20       roll.

        21                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill











                                                             
2598

         1       is passed.

         2                      Senator Present.

         3                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         4       I move that we stand at ease awaiting a report

         5       of the Codes Committee.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senate

         7       will stand at ease.

         8                      (The Senate stood at ease from

         9       3:46 p.m. to 4:20 p.m.)

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Senate

        11       will come to order.  Senator Present.

        12                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        13       can we return to reports of standing

        14       committees.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:

        16       Secretary will read reports of standing

        17       committees.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Volker,

        19       from the Committee on Codes, reports the

        20       following bill directly for third reading:

        21       Senate Bill Number 7693, by the Committee on

        22       Rules, an act to amend Chapter 261 of the Laws

        23       of 1987.











                                                             
2599

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Without

         2       objection, third reading.

         3                      Senator Present.

         4                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         5       I understand there's a message of necessity at

         6       the desk.  I move we accept the message.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  All

         8       those in favor of accepting the message?

         9                      (Response of "Aye.")

        10                      Opposed nay.

        11                      (There was no response. )

        12                      The message is accepted.  Read

        13       the last section.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        15       act shall take effect immediately.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Call the

        17       roll.

        18                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

        21       is -

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Excuse me.  Ayes

        23       50, nays one, Senator Pataki recorded in the











                                                             
2600

         1       negative.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The bill

         3       is passed.

         4                      Senator Present.

         5                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Is there any

         6       housekeeping or -

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  Any

         8       housekeeping, motions, resolutions?

         9                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Desk is clear?

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  We're

        11       all clear, Senator Present.

        12                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        13       there being no further business, I move that we

        14       adjourn until Monday, April 18th, at 3:00 p.m.,

        15       intervening days to be legislative days.  I

        16       would also like to advise the members that they

        17       are subject to a call of the Majority Leader for

        18       session upon 24 hours notice.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT SPANO:  The

        20       Senate will stand adjourned until Monday, 3:00

        21       p.m., being subject to call of the Majority

        22       Leader on 24 hours notice.

        23                      (Whereupon at 4:24 p.m., the











                                                             
2601

         1       Senate adjourned. )

         2

         3

         4

         5

         6

         7

         8