Regular Session - June 14, 1994
4863
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 June 14, 1994
10 3:59 p.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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4864
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senate will come to order, members take their
4 seats. Staff find their places. Ask all the
5 visitors in the gallery to rise and join with us
6 in saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.
7 (The assemblage repeated the
8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
9 We're pleased to be joined by the
10 Reverend Peter G. Young of the Blessed Sacrament
11 Church in Bolton Landing for the prayer.
12 REVEREND PETER G. YOUNG: Thank
13 you, Senator. Let us pray. Almighty and
14 eternal God, may Your grace enkindle in all of
15 us a love for the many unfortunate people whom
16 poverty and misery reduce to a condition of life
17 unworthy of human beings. Arouse in the hearts
18 of those who call You Father a hunger and a
19 thirst for social justice and for fraternal
20 charity in deeds and in truth. Grant us, O
21 Lord, in this chamber of the Senate of New York
22 State peace in our days and peace to all of
23 those in New York, for their families and for
4865
1 all of those that, again, are eager to be Your
2 people. Now and forever. Amen.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank
4 you, Father.
5 Reading of the Journal.
6 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
7 Monday, June 13th. The Senate met pursuant to
8 adjournment, Senator Farley in the Chair upon
9 designation of the Temporary President. Prayer
10 by Rabbi M. Mitchell Serels of New Rochelle.
11 The Journal of Friday, June 10th, was read and
12 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing
14 no objection, the Journal stands approved as
15 read.
16 Presentation of petitions.
17 Messages from the Assembly.
18 Messages from the Governor.
19 Reports of standing committees.
20 Secretary will read.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marino,
22 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
23 following bills directly for third reading:
4866
1 Senate Bill Number 5312-B, by
2 Senator Hannon, an act to amend Chapter 915 of
3 the Laws of 1982;
4 Senate Bill Number 1362, by
5 Senator Marchi, an act to amend the Judiciary
6 Law;
7 1425, by Senator LaValle, an act
8 to amend the Town Law;
9 1426, by Senator LaValle, an act
10 to amend the Town Law;
11 2068, by Senator Kuhl, an act to
12 amend -- authorize the county of Yates to convey
13 certain lands;
14 3463-A, by Senator Trunzo, Real
15 Property Tax Law;
16 4136, by Senator DeFrancisco, an
17 act to amend the Tax Law;
18 4386, by Senator Cook, an act to
19 amend the Tax Law;
20 4822, by Senator Stafford, an act
21 to amend the Town Law;
22 5799-A, by Senator Smith,
23 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its
4867
1 interest in certain real property;
2 5933, by Senator Daly,
3 disposition of surplus monies of the East Gates
4 Water District;
5 6692, by Senator Connor, city of
6 New York to reconvey its interest in certain
7 real property;
8 6849-A, by Senator Gold, New York
9 City reconvey its interest in certain real
10 property;
11 6863-A, by Senator Wright, sale
12 of certain state lands in the town of Ellisburg,
13 Jefferson County;
14 6879, by Senator LaValle, General
15 Municipal Law;
16 6909, by Senator Pataki,
17 legalize, ratify and confirm the town of
18 Dutchess;
19 6961, by Senator Holland, General
20 Municipal Law;
21 7052, by Senator Rath, State
22 Administrative Procedure Act, in relation to
23 regulatory flexibility;
4868
1 7128, by Senator Pataki, an act
2 to amend the Town Law;
3 7142, by Senator Rath, State
4 Administrative Procedure Act;
5 7737-A, by Senator Seward, Real
6 Property Tax Law;
7 7749-A, by Senator Velella, an
8 act to amend Chapter 285 of the Laws of 1891;
9 7772, by Senator Stafford,
10 Commissioner of General Services to convey
11 certain land in Clinton County;
12 7776, by Senator Rath, State
13 Administrative Procedure Act;
14 7800, by Senator Present, Real
15 Property Tax Law;
16 7948, by Senator Wright,
17 Commissioner of General Services to convey real
18 property in St. Lawrence Psychiatric Center;
19 7975, by Senator Libous, an act
20 to amend the Tax Law;
21 8002-A, by Senator Rath, State
22 Administrative Procedure Act;
23 8167, by Senator Skelos, town of
4869
1 Hempstead to lease certain park lands;
2 8180, by Senator Tully, authorize
3 the village of Westbury to discontinue the use
4 of and sell certain park lands, reported with
5 amendments;
6 And 8547, by Senator Tully,
7 authorizing an assessor of the county of Nassau
8 to accept an application for exemption of real
9 property taxes.
10 All bills reported directly for
11 third reading.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All bills
13 reported directly to third reading.
14 Reports of select committees.
15 Communications and reports from
16 state officers.
17 Motions and resolutions.
18 Senator Skelos.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
20 on page number 27, I offer the following
21 amendments to Calendar Number 967, Senate Print
22 6733-A, and ask that said bill retain its place
23 on the Third Reading Calendar.
4870
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
2 Amendments are received and adopted.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: And also, Mr.
4 President, on page number 36, I offer the
5 following amendments to Calendar Number 429,
6 Senate Print Number 6522, and ask that said bill
7 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
9 Amendments are received and adopted.
10 Senator Spano.
11 SENATOR SPANO: Mr. President, on
12 behalf of Senator Volker, on page 13, I offer
13 the following amendments to Calendar Number 633,
14 Senate Print 1507, and ask that the bill retain
15 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
17 Amendments are received and adopted.
18 SENATOR SPANO: On behalf of
19 Senator Libous, I wish to call up his bill,
20 Print Number 7812-A recalled from the Assembly
21 which is now at the desk.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
23 will read.
4871
1 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
2 Libous, Senate Bill Number 7182-A, an act to
3 amend the Highway Law, in relation to
4 designating a portion of state highway system as
5 the 27th Division Memorial Highway.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 SENATOR SPANO: Move to
9 reconsider the vote by which the bill was
10 passed.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the
12 motion to reconsider the vote by which the bill
13 was passed, the Clerk will call the roll on
14 reconsideration.
15 (The Secretary called the roll on
16 reconsideration. )
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
18 SENATOR SPANO: Offer the
19 following amendments.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
21 Amendments received and adopted.
22 SENATOR SPANO: On behalf of
23 Senator LaValle, on page 37 of the starred
4872
1 calendar, offer the following amendments to
2 Calendar 539, Senate Print 6882, ask that the
3 bill retain its place on the Third Reading
4 Calendar.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
6 Amendments are received and adopted.
7 SENATOR SPANO: Thank you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Present.
10 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
11 I move that we adopt the Resolution Calendar.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Gold.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Could we lay aside
16 temporarily on the Resolution Calendar 3993 by
17 Senator Stafford, and Senator Kuhl has a Resolu
18 tion 3961, which I just really want to ask if
19 you'll open it up for -- oh, there you are, open
20 it up for co-sponsorship.
21 SENATOR KUHL: That's fine.
22 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Thank
23 you. Put me on it.
4873
1 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
2 with the exception of 3993, we adopt the
3 Resolution Calendar.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is
5 to accept the Resolution Calendar, to adopt the
6 Resolution Calendar with the exception of
7 Resolution 3993. All those in favor signify by
8 saying aye.
9 (Response of "Aye.")
10 Opposed nay.
11 (There was no response. )
12 The Resolution Calendar is
13 adopted with the exception of 3993.
14 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
15 I believe I have a privileged resolution at the
16 desk. May I have the title read and act upon it
17 now.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
19 will read the title of the privileged
20 resolution.
21 THE SECRETARY: Legislative
22 Resolution, by Senator Present, joining the
23 Westfield Chamber of Commerce in saluting
4874
1 Welch's.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the
3 motion to accept the resolution, all those in
4 favor signify by saying aye.
5 (Response of "Aye.")
6 Opposed nay.
7 (There was no response.)
8 The resolution is adopted.
9 Senator Present, that brings us
10 to the calendar.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Let's take the
12 non-controversial calendar.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
14 will read the non-controversial calendar.
15 THE SECRETARY: On page 4,
16 Calendar Number 199, by Senator Skelos, Senate
17 Bill Number 6552-A, an act to amend the
18 Correction Law.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside,
20 please.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
22 bill aside.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4875
1 291, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill Number 29-C,
2 an act to amend the Penal Law.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
4 last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
12 is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 400, by member of the Assembly Brodsky, Assembly
15 Bill Number 9628-A, Environmental Conservation
16 Law, in relation to the state Superfund
17 Management Board.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
19 last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
21 act shall take effect immediately.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
23 roll.
4876
1 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
4 is passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 475, by Senator Volker, Senate Bill Number
7 6416-B, incorporate the Twin District Volunteer
8 Firefighters Benevolent Association.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
10 last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
18 is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 478, by Senator Saland.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay it aside
22 for the day, please.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
4877
1 bill aside for the day.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 555, by Senator Holland, Senate Bill Number
4 6633-B, an act to amend the Public Health Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
6 last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 563, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
17 7386, proposing an amendment to the
18 Constitution.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
20 last -
21 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
23 bill -- lay the resolution aside.
4878
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 720, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
3 7382.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
6 bill aside.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 721, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
9 7383, Environmental Conservation Law.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
11 last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll. )
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
19 is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 722, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
22 7384, Environmental Conservation Law.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
4879
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
2 bill aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 723, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
5 7385, Environmental Conservation Law.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
8 bill aside.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 828, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
11 3917-A, Environmental Conservation Law.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
13 last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
21 is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 896, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 7743-A,
4880
1 an act to amend the State Administrative
2 Procedure Act.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
4 last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
12 is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 898, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 7999,
15 an act to amend the State Administrative
16 Procedure Act.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
18 last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4881
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
3 is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 900, by Senator Rath, Senate Bill Number 8005-A,
6 State Administrative Procedure Act.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
8 last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 941, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
19 7174-A, Environmental Conservation Law.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
21 last section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
23 act shall take effect immediately.
4882
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
6 is passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 943, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7784,
9 Environmental Conservation Law.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay aside.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
12 bill aside.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 945, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7786,
15 Environmental Conservation Law.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
17 last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
4883
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 946, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7...
5 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
7 bill aside.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 1040, by Senator Johnson, Senate -
10 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
12 bill aside.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 1121, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number -
15 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside,
16 please.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
18 bill aside.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1160, reported directly for third reading
21 earlier today, Senate Bill Number 5312-B, by
22 Senator Hannon, an act to amend Chapter 915 of
23 the Laws of 1982 amending the Public Authorities
4884
1 Law.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
3 will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 Senator Present, that completes
13 the non-controversial calendar. What's your
14 pleasure?
15 SENATOR PRESENT: The
16 controversial calendar, please.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
18 will read the controversial calendar.
19 THE SECRETARY: On page 4,
20 Calendar Number 199, by Senator Skelos, Senate
21 Bill Number 6552-A, an act to amend the
22 Correction Law, in relation to enacting the sex
23 offender registration act.
4885
1 SENATOR GOLD: Could we have one
2 day on this, please?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Skelos, Senator Gold is asking for one day? Lay
5 the bill aside for the day.
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Stafford.
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: We had one
10 bill laid aside that -- or excuse me, one
11 resolution laid aside today, and it's the
12 resolution designating the report of the fiscal
13 committees on the Executive Budget, in effect
14 the official intent of the Legislature. I just
15 wondered if it -
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll
17 return to motions and resolutions. We'll ask
18 the Secretary to read Resolution 3993.
19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Hold on. I -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Stafford.
22 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would thank
23 the Deputy Majority Leader for the opportunity
4886
1 to present the resolution, but why don't we lay
2 it aside again.
3 SENATOR PRESENT: Lay the
4 resolution aside.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
6 resolution aside.
7 The Clerk will continue the
8 controversial calendar calling Calendar Number
9 563.
10 THE SECRETARY: On page 11,
11 Calendar Number 563, by Senator Johnson, Senate
12 Bill Number 7386, proposing an amendment to the
13 Constitution, in relation to legislative review
14 of rules and regulations.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Johnson, Senator Gold has asked for an
18 explanation.
19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
20 last fall a series of hearings were held by the
21 Senate Environmental Conservation Committee, the
22 Legislative Commission on Toxic Substances and
23 Hazardous Waste, the Legislative Commission on
4887
1 Waste Management and the Administrative
2 Regulations Review Commission.
3 During those hearings, the
4 information was presented to us repetitively
5 that regulations were enacted by departments, in
6 this case the Department of Environmental
7 Conservation. There's no doubt this same type
8 of over-regulation is taking place in other
9 agencies. We do have the Administrative
10 Regulations Review Commission to oversee
11 regulations which come out and make
12 recommendations, but they can't roll back those
13 recommendations.
14 This would give us the same power
15 as a legislative body which now resides in the
16 bodies of two adjoining states, Connecticut and
17 New Jersey, where if they find that a department
18 has issued regulations for which there is no
19 statutory authority, they would be able to bring
20 it up in both houses and vote to negate that
21 regulation if that were the case.
22 It's a Constitutional Amendment
23 and it gives a little bit of the power back to
4888
1 the legislators which we thought we had. We
2 thought the laws were made by the people's
3 representatives in concert with the will of the
4 people, and we find out the laws are made by the
5 bureaucracy.
6 This gives a chance to correct
7 those instances where the regulations go beyond
8 the intent of the law.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Gold.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Will the
12 Senator yield to a question?
13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 yields.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I want to
17 understand this and, as you know, I certainly
18 support the concept of legislative oversight. I
19 don't have a problem with that, but right now we
20 pass a law, we give an agency the authority to
21 do rule making and regulations, and that law is
22 not only passed by the Legislature; it must be
23 signed into law by the Governor.
4889
1 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's correct.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Now, under this
3 proposal, can the Legislature act to void
4 regulations now without the Governor?
5 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's
6 correct.
7 SENATOR GOLD: You're saying
8 "correct", and my distinguished colleague
9 Senator Present is shaking his head no. Under
10 your proposal, if it was an amendment to the
11 Constitution -- yes. Senator Present is
12 changing his opinion.
13 SENATOR JOHNSON: I think my
14 answer is correct, Senator, that essentially -
15 SENATOR GOLD: I think you're
16 right.
17 SENATOR JOHNSON: -- the
18 Legislature -- the Governor doesn't sign
19 regulations, he doesn't sign onto regulations.
20 If we feel a department has gone too far, we can
21 negate those regulations to bring the
22 regulations in accordance with the law that's
23 been already passed and signed by the Governor.
4890
1 SENATOR GOLD: Senator yield to a
2 question?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Gold.
5 Senator Johnson, do you continue
6 to yield?
7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 yields.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, right now
11 if we believe that there is a regulation and we
12 believe that that regulation is not in
13 accordance with the legislation that we passed
14 and was signed into law by the Governor, we can
15 change our law; we can clarify a law, and we can
16 pass a new law then which is signed by the
17 Governor. Isn't that in line with what the
18 process is today where the law takes its initial
19 effect because the Legislature and the Governor
20 work together on that?
21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, the -
22 I think the question is whether the Legislature
23 can play a productive role in the making of the
4891
1 laws or whether we'll have some general
2 authority assumed by the bureaucracy which makes
3 regulations which -- with which we may not
4 concur, but with which the executive branch has
5 no problem and, therefore, we have no way to
6 correct those regulations.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, will you
8 answer one last question? If your resolution
9 becomes part of the Constitution, how, in
10 effect, will it work? Would each house vote
11 separately? Will we have joint meetings? Can
12 either house void a regulation acting alone?
13 SENATOR JOHNSON: No, both houses
14 have to adopt by majority, have to adjudicate
15 this regulation.
16 SENATOR GOLD: By sort of a
17 concurrent resolution or something?
18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Apparently.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Dollinger.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Dollinger.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
23 President, will the sponsor yield to a
4892
1 question?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Johnson, do you yield to Senator Dollinger?
4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Johnson yields, Senator Dollinger.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, if
8 we disagree with a regulation promulgated by an
9 agency, don't we have the power through the
10 budget to cut off the funds to achieve the goals
11 of that regulatory authority?
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: While we do
13 have two houses and we do have a Governor, and
14 everyone plays a role, and if the Governor has
15 no problem with the improper assumption of
16 authority by his own agency, I'm sure he's not
17 going to take their budgetary funds away.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But
19 certainly, again through you, Mr. President, if
20 the sponsor will continue to yield.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Johnson, do you continue to yield? Senator
23 Johnson yields.
4893
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But certainly
2 through the budget process, when all these
3 issues about how we spend our money in this
4 state are resolved, we as the Legislature and
5 certainly the other side of the aisle as the
6 majority in this house speaking on behalf of
7 this house in those negotiations, have the
8 ability to say to the Governor, We think that
9 these regulators are doing something that
10 disagrees with their original intent, and we
11 don't want to fund them any more. We could cut
12 those funds out of the budget, could we not?
13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I
14 don't have to tell you that a budget is a
15 process of negotiation, and it's -- I want X and
16 you want Y and she wants Z, and we each get what
17 we want, but we don't eliminate what other
18 people think should be in there, and that's a
19 problem, and I think if -- if the bureaucracy
20 has no problem, the second floor has no problem
21 with their agencies and what they're doing,
22 they're not going to be effective in helping us
23 regain what we feel is the legislative
4894
1 initiative.
2 I mean I don't have to tell you,
3 Senator Dollinger, because you know it, you've
4 gone up many times and apologized for things
5 that happen up here. You said, I don't want you
6 to say that, I want you to say we have the
7 authority to change it, I'll get my majority in
8 my house and the other house to eliminate that
9 regulation. We don't have to ask the Governor
10 or the bureaucracy to give us back our powers
11 and not impose things on our people which we
12 didn't intend to be imposed upon them.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But we have
14 -- again through you Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Johnson, do you continue to yield?
17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Johnson continues to yield.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We currently
21 have the legislative power in conjunction with
22 the Governor to accomplish what you want to
23 accomplish in this Constitutional Amendment;
4895
1 isn't that correct?
2 SENATOR JOHNSON: Theoretically.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Any time that
4 a regulation is promulgated that this
5 Legislature feels is inconsistent with our
6 intent, our legislative intent is expressed in
7 statute approved by both houses and signed by
8 the Governor, if we think the regulators were
9 wrong we can go back and simply take the power
10 to make that regulation away from them, can't
11 we?
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: You asking me
13 to yield to another question, Senator?
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, I did
15 ask you to yield.
16 SENATOR JOHNSON: What was that
17 question again, Senator? Would you rephrase it?
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again,
19 through you, Mr. President. We currently have
20 the legislative power which is the power that
21 we, in this house, exercise in conjunction with
22 the Assembly and with the Governor, all three
23 players have to be a part of the exercise of the
4896
1 legislative power, but we have the power if an
2 agency promulgates a regulation, to simply take
3 that power away by changing the underlying
4 statute with which we gave them the original
5 authority. Isn't that correct?
6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I
7 don't think you listened to my previous answer.
8 My previous answer is that you can't do that
9 unless the Governor concurs in the legislative
10 opinion. If not, he will not sign it, so if his
11 agencies make regulations going beyond the
12 intent of the law which he wanted but he
13 couldn't get in legislation but he's getting it
14 now by regulation, we have no power to take that
15 away unless the Governor agrees that he gave too
16 much freedom to his bureaucracy and he
17 personally tells them to back off. So if he
18 agrees with what they're doing because they went
19 beyond our intent but not beyond the Governor's
20 intent, perhaps then he'll let them get away
21 with it, and we'll not be able to stop it. So
22 he gets two bites of the apple, and we don't
23 think he should. We would like to get another
4897
1 bite of it for ourselves.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again,
3 through you, Mr. President, and just so I
4 understand the term, it takes three coordinated
5 powers to create the law which creates this
6 legislation, but under this amendment it would
7 take only two to take it away.
8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, as I
9 said, we're the Legislature. We're closest to
10 the people. When people complain to us of their
11 problems, and we can't say we'd like to change
12 that, we think they went beyond their authority
13 but the Governor won't sign a bill diminishing
14 the power of the agency, then we're powerless.
15 We're restoring the power which
16 we should have, to see that regulations concur
17 with the laws that we passed, and if a majority
18 in each house agree, we will have that power
19 restored, which I think we should do.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K., Mr.
21 President. On the bill.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Dollinger on the bill.
4898
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
2 President, I look at this bill as a very
3 fundamental restructuring of the constitutional
4 powers of this state.
5 I think Senator Johnson properly
6 points out that it takes three players to put a
7 law into effect: The majority in this house,
8 the majority in the other house and the
9 signature of the Governor who, although he acts
10 as the executive with the power in the agencies,
11 he's also law making as well as we are because
12 without his signature, unless two-thirds of this
13 body overrules his veto, we can't pass
14 legislation.
15 So what it takes is three people
16 to make rules, but what this bill would say is
17 that only two people can change the rules, and
18 it seems to me we have budgetary authority. We
19 can control by extending, limiting spending,
20 taking people out of the budget, taking
21 inspectors, taking regulators out of the
22 budget. We've got the power to do that.
23 One thing I point out, although I
4899
1 agree with Senator Johnson that the Senate and
2 Assembly are close to the people and are
3 responsive to the people, certainly whoever
4 lives on the second floor is also responsible to
5 the people. They have the same responsiveness
6 that we do, at least theoretically, I think as
7 Senator Johnson put it, and we have -- they have
8 an obligation to respond to the people as much
9 as we do.
10 I think this is a very, very
11 dangerous concept to take a constitutionally
12 enshrined balance of powers and turn them
13 topsy-turvy because we may, on specific
14 instances, disagree with the way agencies
15 exercise the broad authority that we gave them.
16 If we want to take that broad power away, we've
17 clearly got the ability to do it. We do it the
18 same way we do everything else, through a
19 conjunction of the Assembly, the Senate and the
20 Governor.
21 I don't think we should tinker
22 with our constitutional system, and the balance
23 of power inherent in that system simply because
4900
1 there's a complaint that we're over-regulating.
2 If we're over-regulating, let's do our own home
3 work. Let's go back, figure out where we're
4 regulating too much, and let's collectively, the
5 same way we created the power to regulate, let's
6 take it away.
7 When that happens, Senator
8 Johnson, I would join you because I also agree
9 that there are excesses in our -- excesses in
10 our regulatory power exercised by the agencies,
11 but I'm not going to tinker with our
12 constitutional systems to try to rectify that.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Gold.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you.
16 Mr. President, for the first five
17 minutes reading my remarks, I want to repeat
18 what Senator Dollinger said, because I think
19 he's right on target, and now I can be very,
20 very brief.
21 It seems to me that, when I see
22 legislation like this, it's not because it's
23 motivated by any evil, because Senator Johnson
4901
1 couldn't do that, wouldn't know how to do that,
2 but it's a recognition that we just do not do
3 our job. That's what it really is all about.
4 If we take a look at some of the
5 things we have said, not anybody else, but what
6 we have said over the last years, we've said we
7 give too much power by regulation to the
8 agencies and, therefore, our own Administrative
9 Regulations Review Commission is going to review
10 every piece of legislation and determine whether
11 or not the granting of power is done properly,
12 and Senator Present used to do that. Senator
13 Present was the chair of that committee and we
14 used to ask, and we used to get reports and the
15 Administrative Regulations Review Commission
16 would take a look and say, No, we like the way
17 this power is being granted.
18 Now, we go to step two. When the
19 Administrative Regulations Review Committee and
20 then Commission was established, it was envis
21 ioned that we, as part of legislative oversight,
22 would take a look at what's going -- at what
23 goes on and go from there and really have
4902
1 legislative oversight.
2 Now, I'm not now going to get
3 involved in name calling. I think, while
4 Senator Present chaired the committee, he did a
5 phenomenal job and an enormous amount of work
6 was done, and I think all of the chairpersons
7 get credit, but maybe that committee should be
8 four times the size. Maybe it should be that
9 every one of the committee chairs in their own
10 substantive area ought to be examining regula
11 tions, when all of a sudden now in 1994 we're
12 going to wake up and say that we in some way
13 have been asleep at the switch and, therefore,
14 we're going to change the Constitution of the
15 state of New York to change the law-making
16 process of the state of New York because that's
17 what you're doing. You're telling every
18 governor from here on in that, well, we'll agree
19 on the laws, but when it comes to their
20 application on a day-by-day basis, Governor,
21 you're out of it, and it's just an absurdity and
22 we're not suggesting there shouldn't be
23 legislative oversight. We have that.
4903
1 I don't know what this straw was,
2 Senator Johnson, that breaks the camel's back in
3 your mind. Maybe it's Environmental Conserva
4 tion. Maybe it's in Motor Vehicle, I don't
5 know, but whatever it is, we can deal with those
6 regulations through our committee, deal with the
7 agency or put in a statute that amends the grant
8 of authority and then the Legislature and the
9 Governor, in a proper law-making manner will
10 take on that job and get it done.
11 But the concept of putting in a
12 change to the Constitution, I mean we are, in my
13 opinion, belittling the Constitution and what
14 it's supposed to be versus statute law with the
15 concept, and making, as Senator Dollinger has so
16 aptly described, an enormous change in the
17 philosophy of our laws.
18 I certainly am going to vote
19 against it, and I would urge others to vote
20 against it.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question
22 is on the resolution. All those in favor
23 signify by saying aye.
4904
1 (Response of "Aye.")
2 Opposed nay.
3 SENATOR GOLD: In the
4 negative.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Clerk
6 will call the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
9 the results.
10 Senator Mendez to explain her
11 vote.
12 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes, Mr.
13 President, to explain my vote.
14 Ordinarily I would have supported
15 -- would have voted against this resolution.
16 However, a case in point is the Department of
17 Conservation of the state of New York. It has
18 shown consistently its horrendous amount of
19 environmental racism in terms of projects that
20 should have been re-examined and critically
21 analyzed before establishing, whether it is
22 medical incinerators or what have you in
23 minority districts in the city of New York.
4905
1 Therefore, I think that, if this
2 resolution goes through, after next year's
3 approval here in the Legislature, that at least
4 we would have an opportunity to, in fact, review
5 those regulations put forth by some of the
6 agencies and do something about it.
7 Thank you, Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Mendez, how do you vote, in the negative?
10 Announce the results.
11 Senator Mendez, are you -
12 Senator Mendez, in the affirmative or in the
13 negative?
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: No, no, no, I
15 vote yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Mendez in the affirmative.
18 Clerk will announce the results.
19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
20 the negative on Calendar Number 3563 are
21 Senators Dollinger, Galiber, Gold, Kruger,
22 Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein,
23 Onorato, Smith and Stachowski. Ayes 44, nays
4906
1 11.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 resolution is adopted.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 720, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
6 7382, an act to amend the Environmental
7 Conservation Law, in relation to action on
8 permit applications.
9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Explanation.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Johnson, explanation has been asked by both
13 Senator Leichter and Senator Oppenheimer.
14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
15 one of the findings of our hearings was that
16 permits were delayed not only for months but
17 sometimes for years, applications for permits
18 duly submitted legally -- for legally advanced
19 projects under the state Department of
20 Environmental Conservation.
21 They would send back a permit and
22 say, We need more information in answer to this
23 question, and then a month or two later or six
4907
1 months later, you get it back, there's some
2 other question they want answered.
3 Under the Uniform Procedures Act,
4 there's a time limit when these have to be
5 processed, but there's no limit; they can
6 indefinitely send these applications back and
7 forth causing great inconvenience to business,
8 discouragement to people to expand their
9 businesses, inability to resolve problems
10 expeditiously, costing businesses a lot of money
11 and costing a lot of jobs in the state of New
12 York.
13 All we're saying here is when the
14 DEC receives an application, they should examine
15 it, say what's wrong with it, what is incomplete
16 and what's got to be answered, additional ques
17 tions, give all this information to the appli
18 cant at one time so he can resubmit it with
19 everything that's required and get the thing
20 processed.
21 It's simple as that, and it's
22 something that almost goes without saying, but
23 it has not been the procedure of the Department
4908
1 of Environmental Conservation.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
3 recognizes Senator Leichter.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
5 my colleagues, on the bill. You know, we're
6 dealing here with the safety and health of
7 people. We all have these examples before us of
8 people of this state that have been injured,
9 damaged and in some instances killed, whether
10 it's Love Canal, whether it's other toxic dump
11 sites, or other dangerous pollutants that may be
12 used and come into the atmosphere.
13 We have a Department of
14 Environmental Conservation, and they're charged
15 with trying to protect the public. Do they
16 always do the right thing? No. Do they always
17 do a good job? No. Do they always do it
18 expeditiously? No. But there are ways to try to
19 make that department function better, but one
20 way not to -- to -- that is not going to work,
21 it's not going to make that department function
22 more efficiently, and that is going to have the
23 effect of hurting the people that we're supposed
4909
1 to be helping and saving them from environmental
2 harm. So cripple the department and unfortun
3 ately, Senator Johnson -- and he's done some
4 very good work on environmental matters; I serve
5 on his committee, I'm the ranking member; he's a
6 lovely chairman to work with, but there are
7 certain blind spots. I'm sorry to say so,
8 Senator Johnson, and to take this power of the
9 department to approve or deny permits and to say
10 that, if a permit is initially not denied but is
11 returned because more information is needed,
12 that then you can not ask for any additional
13 information just doesn't make sense because it
14 may well be that, let's say, on the permit
15 application there are 12 questions. The
16 applicant failed to answer question number 9 so
17 you say, Please answer question number 9. By
18 virtue of the answer to question number 9, you
19 may find that you need additional information.
20 Oh, we didn't realize that this particular
21 condition existed. Therefore, will you please
22 tell us this information. Under Senator
23 Johnson's bill, they couldn't do that.
4910
1 Now, that just doesn't make sense
2 to try to make these blanket prescriptions, so I
3 -- I beg of you, Senator Johnson -- well, I'm
4 not going to beg. I suggest to you, Senator
5 Johnson and my colleagues, this is an ill
6 advised bill. It's again, where you see a prob
7 lem and, instead of trying to -- trying to limit
8 the problem, trying to deal with it, you come up
9 with a sort of a shot gun approach which almost
10 obliterates the power of the department to act
11 knowledgably and intelligently on applications.
12 And what are those applications?
13 They're looking at how we can protect the public
14 from harm. That's really what that department
15 does. So don't cripple their power because, if
16 you cripple their power, you are going to create
17 harm, injury and maybe even loss of life to the
18 people of this state.
19 It's an ill-advised bill.
20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr.
21 President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
23 recognizes Senator Oppenheimer.
4911
1 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I actually
2 don't want to reiterate what's been said. I
3 think that the point that Senator Johnson made
4 about the delay in processing is -- is very
5 often accurate, and I think we're sending in a
6 bulldozer here where a shovel could -- could do
7 the job.
8 Perhaps there might be some way
9 we could lay down greater time limits than we
10 currently have, but the primary way of regulat
11 ing activities in this state in construction
12 projects is through the permit process and often
13 the first permit doesn't contain all the
14 information that's really needed, and so then
15 the second permit application comes in and
16 because there's not enough detail, DEC sees that
17 other questions must be asked and to simply
18 cripple it and say that they can't continue to
19 ask questions is to open us up to, I think, a
20 lot of liability, and I think really cripple our
21 Department of Environmental Conservation which,
22 after all, is there to protect all of us.
23 So I think it's imperative that
4912
1 the DEC be given the authority that it -- power
2 to maintain its authority, and I think this
3 should be rejected out of hand.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Dollinger, on the -
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe
7 Senator Mendez was first.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Mendez.
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you. Mr.
11 President, again DEC has had the power to
12 protect all -- every citizen and neighborhood in
13 the city and the state of New York. It has
14 chosen to really practice environmental racism
15 as it is putting the city of New York through
16 dirt in the streets and I think this bill -
17 Senator Johnson's bill will not, in fact, tie
18 the hand of that agency to proceed and do and
19 protect the people of this state of New York.
20 I want to mention that, if there
21 is one agency in the state of New York that
22 shows the most horrible record in terms of
23 having any one member of my -- of the minority,
4913
1 of any one minority, in a top policy position
2 that it's horrible what is occurring at that
3 time. Not one Puerto Rican, not one African
4 American, not one Asian, nobody, no
5 representation at all of any one of these groups
6 has been found at the present time in DEC.
7 So no wonder it's the policy
8 reflects the attitude that this agency has had
9 towards some minority neighborhoods in the city
10 of New York.
11 I think this is a good bill. It
12 will not tie the hands of the bureaucrats in the
13 agency, and it might enlighten them a bit to the
14 effect that they have to be more sensitive to
15 the needs of all the different communities in
16 the state of New York.
17 I will be voting yes.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
19 recognizes Senator Dollinger.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
21 President, will the sponsor yield for a
22 question?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4914
1 Johnson, do you yield to Senator Dollinger?
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator,
3 what's the practical consequence of this
4 proposed change in the law? What -- what
5 actually happens if there's a first return that
6 they need more information, and then the DEC
7 determines after reviewing the information
8 supplied that additional information is required
9 in their judgment? Your bill, as I understand
10 it, would say that they couldn't write the
11 applicant back and say, We need more information
12 and so they're now left with a -- they realize
13 they need more information but they can't ask
14 for it. What's the consequence of that? Is
15 that your interpretation of the bill? And
16 then -
17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, let me
18 tell you what might happen, Senator, if it were
19 an enlightened agency we're dealing with, let me
20 tell you what will happen. They will go over
21 their application, see what information they
22 need. They will put all the questions, all the
23 requisite information, blanks or in whatever
4915
1 form that they need: These are the things that
2 we need, A, B, C, D, et cetera. That would be
3 completed by the applicant, would be processed
4 within the 90 days provided for under the
5 Uniform Procedures Act and the permit would
6 either be issued or denied based on that, but
7 they could not deny it any further for
8 incomplete -- so they wouldn't have to reject it
9 for incompleteness and have that 90 days running
10 over and over, which they've done in the past.
11 So the agency would get on the
12 ball and do a proper job. That's all that this
13 is really intended to do, have them do their job
14 right the first time.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again,
16 through you, Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Johnson, again, do you continue to yield?
19 Senator Johnson yields.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What is the
21 effect -- what is the effect if a bureaucrat
22 makes a mistake in reviewing the application the
23 first time, sends out information that he needs
4916
1 more data and then realizes that he should have
2 asked more questions that he didn't ask the
3 first time around. If that happens, if they
4 drop the ball, to use your analogy, what then
5 happens? You now have the DEC having
6 significant questions for which it cannot ask
7 the applicant for additional information. Do
8 they deny the permit? Do they approve the
9 permit? What do they do?
10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, right now
11 -- right now they can do what they please and
12 it's not a happy thing for the regulated
13 community. It's not a happy thing for the
14 citizens of our state, for the simple reason
15 that there's something that should be done or
16 corrected or a new process to be permitted and
17 the department fools around for six months or a
18 year and six months. The people in the
19 community are endangered as well as the business
20 being impeded in their activities and everyone
21 is endangered because the DEC is not doing their
22 job. They should do their job right.
23 As far as the person, I'm sure he
4917
1 wouldn't be named Richard Dollinger, but what
2 ever his name would be, if he doesn't do his job
3 well, he'd get a different job in short order or
4 he would have a new boss or something like that,
5 and the agency would run effectively and
6 efficiently.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again,
8 through you, Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Johnson, do you continue to yield? Senator
11 Johnson yields.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The DEC makes
13 a mistake, it ends up with insufficient informa
14 tion to make a decision. Under your statute, if
15 it becomes law, they can't ask the applicant to
16 provide more. What does DEC then do if they
17 deny the permit because they don't have the
18 additional information? We'll go to court and I
19 would assume what the courts would do. They'd
20 say, O.K., DEC, you need more. We're going to
21 give you more. Or would they say the DEC
22 doesn't need any more and we're going to require
23 the DEC to issue the permit even though in the
4918
1 regulator's judgment, they don't have enough
2 information to do it?
3 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I
4 think the agency has to figure out how they're
5 going to handle the situation. The simple fact
6 is that we can't go on like this delaying for
7 years issuance of permits costing a lot of
8 money, interfering with jobs. I mean one of the
9 principal things we've heard at our hearings
10 were all the jobs lost in this state, all the
11 expansion not taking place in the state, all the
12 factories will be out of this state because of
13 the activities of the DEC.
14 I'm not here to beat on them.
15 I'm here to correct their operation, and this is
16 one method to correct their operation, and I
17 might say that a lot of people understand and
18 agree with this, the Council of Mayors, Business
19 Council, county association, all agree that this
20 is one of the major problems that we have in the
21 state, and they've got to correct it so they've
22 got to do their job in the first place. Got to
23 make the application properly, they've got to do
4919
1 their job properly, say what's wrong with it and
2 give the applicant an opportunity to respond to
3 it.
4 So this is going to be good for
5 the business environment, the environmental
6 environment I would say, the healthy environment
7 of this state, to get this act straightened up
8 but the DEC can't do it without help. If they
9 ask for more money, if they don't have enough
10 computers, if they don't have the people, they
11 should get the experts to carry on, but they
12 should not be permitted to carry on as they have
13 in the past.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
15 President, on the bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Dollinger on the bill.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I guess I've
19 been persuaded in the course of the discussion
20 that what this bill really does is create
21 further litigation and further problems because
22 I appreciate -- Senator Johnson, let me start
23 off by saying I appreciate the intent behind
4920
1 this bill. I've represented litigants prior to
2 coming to this chamber, in permit applications
3 before DEC and we, frankly, were run around the
4 mulberry bush on a number of occasions many
5 different times, and it's not a capital project
6 that's tied up, it's not a happy process when
7 you're told that you didn't answer question
8 number 10 properly, we need more information to
9 do it.
10 But it seems to me that the
11 consequence of this is that you take a
12 bureaucratic mistake or bureaucratic
13 intransigence, the very thing you're trying to
14 overcome, and what you do is you create an error
15 that suddenly becomes either a denial of a
16 permit prematurely when additional information
17 is necessary or the granting of the permit
18 without sufficient information to justify, and I
19 think that's only going to -- going to generate
20 additional gobs of litigation. It will be a
21 wonderful thing for my profession because
22 lawyers will be contesting the issuance of these
23 permits when they haven't -- the applicants have
4921
1 been -- can't get a second batch of information
2 to DEC or, for that matter, DEC can't ask for
3 it.
4 I think you're going to see a ton
5 of litigation when these permits are either
6 issued based on insufficient information or
7 denied based on insufficient information and the
8 one thing we ought to be doing in our
9 protection, our shared concern for protecting
10 the environment is to make sure that DEC
11 operates with all the information.
12 I agree with one thing you said
13 Senator completely, and that is the person who
14 continually makes that mistake ought to find
15 another job, but that's a responsibility that
16 rests with the Commissioner of DEC, with his
17 deputy commissioner, with the second floor and
18 the person who's primarily responsible for those
19 executive agencies.
20 I share the frustration. I wish
21 I could share the optimism that this was a
22 solution. Senator.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4922
1 Secretary will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
8 the results.
9 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
10 the negative on Calendar Number 720 are Senators
11 Connor, Dollinger, Galiber, Gold, Goodman,
12 Kruger, Markowitz, Montgomery, Ohrenstein,
13 Oppenheimer and Smith. Ayes 45, nays 11.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
15 is passed.
16 Secretary will read the
17 controversial calendar.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 722, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
20 7384, an act to amend the Environmental
21 Conservation Law.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4923
1 Johnson, Senator Gold has asked for an
2 explanation.
3 SENATOR JOHNSON: This is, I
4 don't believe, a controversial bill. I don't
5 believe it would have any negatives at all.
6 Just to reassure my friends on
7 the other side of the aisle, the DEC has the
8 opportunity now when a permit is being issued to
9 request financial security, and there's no
10 limitations on the type of financial security,
11 recently they've been asking for -
12 SENATOR GOLD: Last section.
13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator
14 Leichter wanted to hear the explanation. I'll
15 have to tell him privately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
17 will read the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
4924
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 723, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
5 7385, Environmental Conservation Law.
6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:
7 Explanation.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Johnson, Senator Oppenheimer has asked for an
10 explanation.
11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator
12 Oppenheimer, this -- this is a real bill. You
13 can fight over this one.
14 This is another recommendation
15 that came out of our hearings and what it says,
16 Senator, is that neither Section 3-0301 or
17 19-0301 of the Environmental Conservation Law
18 shall be the basis of formulating of any
19 regulations. In other words, these are general
20 grants of power, not specific legislative
21 enactments, and should not be used as the basis
22 of legislation, but particular laws passed by
23 both bodies and signed by the Governor shall be
4925
1 the only basis for making those type of
2 regulations.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
4 will read the last section.
5 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Oh, may I
6 be recognized?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
8 will recognize Senator Oppenheimer.
9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: This is a
10 very, very damaging bill. What this bill would
11 prevent the DEC from promulgating their own
12 rules and regulations under the general
13 authority. They have a general grant of powers
14 under Title 3, General Functions, Powers, Duties
15 and Jurisdiction, and what this bill would say
16 is that they can't promulgate their own powers
17 and their own regulations and the rules and in
18 no way does it look to anticipate the myriad of
19 very unique environmental problems that come
20 along continuously. There are just countless
21 problems that we can't see in advance and beyond
22 that this is so damaging because this totally
23 tries to rearrange the functioning of the levels
4926
1 of government, the different, not levels, the
2 different departments of government.
3 It is giving to the Legislature
4 the powers that reside in the executive branch.
5 It would just totally reverse our historic
6 balance of powers because if this -- if these
7 general powers were not granted to the DEC, then
8 every problem that came along, environmentally
9 would have to be handled by the Legislature and
10 we would have to pass a different bill on every
11 issue that would come up, and many of them are
12 highly technical, highly specific, and we don't
13 have the kind of expertise to deal with that, so
14 I mean this -- this is really a very poor bill,
15 and -- and it should be noted that the EPL has
16 given it its absolute worst, it strongly opposes
17 this bill, and has three smoke stacks to prove
18 it.
19 So I'll be voting in the
20 negative.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
22 recognizes Senator Dollinger.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll yield
4927
1 the floor to Senator Connor, Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Connor.
4 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you.
5 Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator.
6 Mr. President, this bill seems to
7 be an outcry against modern government. You
8 look at it historically, the concept of rule
9 making or regulation-making developed as a
10 rather progressive, and I don't say liberal or
11 conservative, a progressive means of dealing
12 with complicated problems toward the end of the
13 last century.
14 Interestingly enough, on the
15 federal level, rule-making powers were first
16 challenged in cases involving the Department of
17 the Interior in the 1880s.
18 Harking back to public
19 administration, I remember a case involving a
20 guy named Gifford or this or that, and the
21 Department of the Interior. The need for it, of
22 course, was that it's fine for the legislative
23 body to set policy in an area such as the
4928
1 environment, protection of natural resources,
2 but we couldn't possibly -- couldn't possibly
3 deal with and enact such comprehensive detailed
4 regulations as would be necessary to deal with
5 particular -- particular substances, where the
6 need for localized regulations dealing with
7 every beach, every environmental problem in
8 different parts of the state, every unique
9 situation on a beach or a forest or a woodland.
10 We have to leave it to the experts to do this.
11 Now, that doesn't mean we give
12 up -- the legislative body gives up its
13 sovereign power to intervene to reverse
14 regulations which have caused problems or which
15 seem not to be consistent with the public policy
16 elucidated in the legislation, but this bill
17 would say it's just an outcry. Some people
18 don't like some of the regulations.
19 Do they get to be cumbersome?
20 They're as cumbersome, Mr. President, as would
21 be a bill -- a bill dealing with all these
22 problems in very specific ways would, I dare
23 say, be a couple feet thick -- would prove just
4929
1 as cumbersome for people who have to work in the
2 areas to deal with as lengthy regulations may
3 be, and I think the -- the whole concept of
4 public administration requires that the
5 executive be delegated this quasi-regulatory,
6 quasi-legislative power to deal with specific
7 problems that come up. Else this Legislature,
8 if we were going to do the job across the board,
9 not just in the area of the environment, would
10 have to sit 12 hours a day, 300 days a year to
11 do an adequate job of addressing every problem.
12 My colleagues, do we really,
13 really want to have to have a bill every time
14 there's a particular problem, every time there's
15 a need for a specific regulation with respect to
16 a pond or a lake or a substance being used that
17 affects the environment? Of course, we don't.
18 This is just simple naysaying. It's turning a
19 blind eye to the last hundred years of devel
20 opment of modern government administration.
21 That's not to say there aren't
22 problems. That's not to say there aren't
23 bureaucracies that not only are fun to take
4930
1 pokes at, but that perhaps need to be brought
2 back to the line from time to time. But
3 remember, courts exist to do that. This
4 Legislature is the ultimate resort. To just
5 wipe out the ability of a department to make
6 regulations based on a legislative grant of
7 authority is simply not a reasonable way to deal
8 with whatever problems have arisen pursuant to
9 these regulations.
10 So I would urge a no vote. This
11 is -- we can't govern our state; we can't
12 protect our environment by harkening back to
13 18th Century governmental systems that simply
14 can't work in the modern day.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Dollinger.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will the
18 sponsor yield for a question, Mr. President?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Johnson, do you yield?
21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 yields.
4931
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I do
2 know that you held a series of hearings, and I
3 think the Environmental Conservation Committee
4 did some real solid work in gathering informa
5 tion about the tendency to over-regulate in the
6 environmental context as well as others. But
7 could you just point out to me -- I have a copy
8 of the section of the law that you would like to
9 amend, Article 3 -- Section 3-0301, which is the
10 general function powers and duties of the
11 commissioner. Can you tell me which of these
12 powers the commissioner or his regulations have
13 exceeded? Where specifically has the
14 commissioner gone -- can you give me one
15 example, two examples of where it was doing
16 something that it wasn't specifically authorized
17 to do by law because these are very, very broad
18 powers: Coordinate, develop policies relating
19 to the environment of the state and the regions
20 thereof, it's extremely broad power, and I would
21 point out to you that these powers were given in
22 1974, I assume, by a majority of this body. I
23 assume that the members who were here in 1974
4932
1 all voted in favor of these very broad powers.
2 So could you just -- is it
3 possible you can specify which one of these
4 powers are too broad, which is exceeded?
5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, you
6 know, we passed a lot of bills in this house in
7 recent years to protect the air, protect the
8 water, protect the fisheries, fresh water
9 wetlands, marine wetlands, we've done any number
10 of laws here, and including pollution prevention
11 laws, I can't tell you how many, recycling
12 laws. Since you've been here you've helped to
13 vote on a lot of those laws.
14 We've given a specific grant of
15 authority in every case for the regulations
16 which flow from those laws. Now, if there's
17 something among these general powers and duties
18 of the department which would permit, for
19 example, a multi-media regulation procedure
20 which has now come forth from the department
21 essentially demanding that every business do an
22 audit at their place every three months, keep
23 records, submit it, we didn't give them the
4933
1 authority to do it, but they say under this they
2 could do anything they really please. They can
3 make any regulation they choose, but they come
4 to us for grant of authority in specific cases
5 because they know that's the best way to do it,
6 with the support of the people and the people's
7 representatives for the funds to do those
8 programs, but when they don't get it or they
9 can't get it from the Legislature they just go
10 off on their own and make these regulations.
11 This multi-media regulation is the one recently
12 enacted by or recently put in place by the
13 department without authority, which again is
14 harassing businesses, and I might tell you that
15 some of the comments we got, and here's one
16 comment supporting this legislation: New York
17 regulatory policies are among the most rigid in
18 the nation. Ridiculous environmental rules! A
19 recent survey taken of small businesses shows
20 that a hundred percent believe New York State is
21 hostile to business, and many cite excessive
22 regulation, overzealous regulators for these.
23 So what we're saying here is, if
4934
1 you got a specific grant of authority in a
2 specific field signed by the Governor, all the
3 i's dotted and the t's crossed, you can make the
4 regulation, but you can't use a general grant of
5 authority to establish an agency to make
6 regulations when you can not get the Legislature
7 to do it for you. That's 3-0301, and the same
8 thing with 19-0301.
9 We were having a very interesting
10 discussion on air quality, and you know the
11 California car and the LEV and the ZEV and all
12 the things the Governor did here trying to make
13 it more difficult and more expensive in this
14 state without any benefit to the air quality,
15 and I say that, I have said it before, and this
16 house passed a New York State clean air bill by
17 a two-to-one margin; it had almost two-to-one
18 sponsors in the other house. It should have
19 been considered. The department refused to
20 consider it, refused to discuss it, refused to
21 negotiate another bill, and they said, Well,
22 under 19-0301 we realize we don't want air
23 pollution; it's a general grant of authority for
4935
1 air quality regulation; therefore, we can do it,
2 we don't have to ask the Legislature, and they
3 did it, to the detriment of our economy and not
4 to the betterment of our environment, I would
5 say, so these are the reasons we can't let them
6 use a general grant of authority that they can't
7 get specific grants of authority through this
8 government which is established to make the laws
9 in this state in behalf of the people they
10 represent.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again,
12 through you, Mr. President, if the Senator will
13 continue to yield.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Dollinger -- Senator Johnson, you continue to
16 yield?
17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Sure.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 yields.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one
21 other question. Section 3-0301, the first power
22 that's given to the commissioner is to develop,
23 coordinate policies and programs related to the
4936
1 state and the environment of the regions
2 thereof.
3 Your legislation is tantamount to
4 repealing that, is it not?
5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, I didn't
6 understand your question. What did you say the
7 power is?
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The first
9 power in Section 1, subdivision (a), small "a",
10 right there on the page -- I think you've got it
11 right there; it's page 22 of the Environmental
12 Conservation Law. Doesn't your legislation
13 repeal that broad grant of authority to the
14 commissioner?
15 SENATOR JOHNSON: If you're
16 asking me if I'm opposed to them planning and
17 coordinating or whatever, I'm not. I'm against
18 them imposing things on people with -- with no
19 authority to do so.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But here's my
21 question.
22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Without any
23 recompense for the people that have to do all
4937
1 the work that they want done.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right, but
3 your bill says that you can't impose a
4 regulation unless it's not otherwise directed by
5 law.
6 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's right.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Under that
8 portion of the statute, aren't we directing that
9 they do all those things?
10 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Daly, why do you rise?
13 SENATOR DALY: Will Senator
14 Dollinger yield?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Johnson, do you yield to Senator Daly?
17 SENATOR JOHNSON: I will.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Daly.
20 SENATOR DALY: Do you see that in
21 that section of law, it says plan and develop,
22 it does not say set policy, and that's the
23 point. The point we're making is the recent
4938
1 administration of DEC has taken unto itself to
2 write the said policy in the state. We don't
3 think they have that right. This does not give
4 them the power to set policy.
5 What Senator Johnson's bill deals
6 with is the setting of policy, not the coordin
7 ating, not the planning, not the developing, but
8 the setting of policy.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
10 President, if Senator Daly will yield to a
11 question in response?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Daly, do you yield to a question from Senator
14 Dollinger.
15 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Daly yields, Senator Dollinger.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Since I've
19 gotten this copy of the bill, I've seen the text
20 of the current law, but in section (d) it says
21 it can promote, coordinate management of water,
22 land, fish, wildlife for their protection -
23 SENATOR DALY: Yes, and -
4939
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And then at
2 the tail end, it says in connection with any
3 license, permit, order, certification or any
4 other similar action or promulgating any
5 other -
6 SENATOR DALY: You leave out the
7 middle where it says consistent with the
8 environmental policy -
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The
10 environmental policy of the state and taking
11 into consideration the cumulative impact of the
12 policy in effecting any determination -- any
13 determination in connection with any licenses.
14 The point I'm making, Senator,
15 isn't that a very broad grant of authority in
16 that section, and doesn't this -- aren't those
17 regulations at least according to DEC consistent
18 with law?
19 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President, in
20 answer to Senator Dollinger, I'll go back and
21 read the middle part of section (b) whether it
22 says consistent with the environmental policy of
23 the state. This -- the Legislature had the
4940
1 power to set policy by Constitution. The DEC
2 does not.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I agree with
4 you.
5 SENATOR DALY: Our point is this,
6 Senator, that DEC has been setting policy. I'll
7 point to Part 378, Part 325, the California Air
8 Emission Act and a few others in a minute, where
9 they have literally taken away from the
10 Legislature the right to set policy for the
11 state. We have take very strong exception to
12 this, and this bill simply says, Uh-uh.
13 While I'm up here, I might as
14 well go on if you don't mind.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I don't,
16 Senator. Go ahead.
17 SENATOR DALY: Let's go back to
18 Part 378 which was recently promulgated by DEC.
19 Where did they get the power to promulgate 378?
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
21 President, if I could just ask a question. I'm
22 not familiar with Part 378, sir.
23 SENATOR DALY: Well, let me just
4941
1 say that's the reduction of hazardous waste. It
2 was a bill we passed in both houses, signed into
3 law in 1990, and the intent of this bill, the
4 intent of this bill was to set a policy that
5 companies in this state would plan the reduction
6 of the hazardous wastes they generate. That was
7 it.
8 The companies had to submit to
9 DEC a plan of how they're going to reduce that
10 hazardous waste that they generate. Lo and
11 behold, DEC got a hold of the -- the bill, the
12 law, when it came down from the Governor,
13 developed rules and regulations that went far
14 beyond hazardous waste generation. It went
15 multi-media. It went into air emissions; it
16 went into water emissions.
17 It was a -- just some violation
18 of the very intent of the bill, and I know,
19 Senator, because I carried the bill, and I
20 didn't pass that bill here in this house nor did
21 my staff draft that bill to allow DEC to go
22 crazy and take that bill -- take that bill that
23 we passed, and it was signed into law and use it
4942
1 as a slingshot to jump into every other area of
2 hazardous waste in this state.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
4 President, will Senator Daly yield to a
5 question?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Daly, do you yield to Senator Dollinger?
8 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Daly yields.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I
12 understand your frustration at passing a bill
13 and then finding that the bureaucrats changed
14 the intent of that bill.
15 SENATOR DALY: This is as a
16 result of that frustration.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct, but
18 don't we have the ability in that specific in
19 stance to rein in DEC by changing the text of
20 your very own statute. Couldn't we do that
21 collectively?
22 SENATOR DALY: Certainly we could
23 do that but, very frankly, Mr. President, what
4943
1 we're trying to do with this bill is not make
2 that necessary. I take exception to the fact
3 that the head -- the present commissioner of DEC
4 thinks he has the right to set policy in this
5 state, this marvelous feeling.
6 What we're trying to do is a
7 matter of principle, and this particular legis
8 lation that we're dealing with right now tells
9 the commissioner, You do not have the right to
10 set policy. The Legislature sets the policy,
11 and you implement it. That's the purpose of the
12 bill.
13 I could go, as I said -- let me
14 read some more of the other actions they took if
15 I can find it, and I'm sure I can. Let me tell
16 you some of the other regulations they promul
17 gated that, in our opinion, really violated the
18 intent of the legislation they used to
19 promulgate the rules.
20 I said Part 378 just talked about
21 that multi-media; Part 357, Part 325, pesticide
22 notification regulations, the court threw it
23 out. Court said you went way out. Court said,
4944
1 You set policy, and the court said, You can't do
2 that, and that was thrown out.
3 The California low emission
4 vehicle regulations, and the proposed fresh
5 water wetlands regulations several years ago
6 that drove everybody crazy, they backed off.
7 Mr. President, the intent of this
8 legislation is to stop this, to stop it. DEC
9 does not have the right to set policy. Only the
10 Legislature has the right to set policy, and
11 that's all Senator Johnson is trying to do.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And Mr.
13 President, on the bill.
14 I agree with -
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Dollinger on the bill.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I agree with
18 Senator Daly that the repository for the power
19 to set policy ought to be in this Legislature.
20 I'd simply point out that we gave part of that
21 power away, in my opinion, in Section 1 (a) of
22 the statute in which we said -
23 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
4945
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- you said
2 that -
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Daly, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR DALY: Because I want to
6 point out we're trying to change it.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I'm
8 simply -
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Dollinger, on the bill.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What I'm
12 simply trying to point out as part of this
13 debate is that I don't think this bill does
14 that, because I don't think, unless you repeal
15 the paragraph, Section 1, which says it shall be
16 the responsibility of the department, in
17 accordance with existing provisions and
18 limitations as may elsewhere be set forth in
19 law, that is, we have the ability to set the
20 policy.
21 We constructed the outer
22 perimeter of DEC's authority. I agree with
23 Senator Daly that we should. I believe we have
4946
1 in specific instances, and I believe we should
2 continue to do so, but we did set or outline the
3 perimeter in the following way:
4 It shall be the responsibility of
5 this department, in accordance with existing
6 provisions and limitations as they may elsewhere
7 be set forth in law, by and through the commis
8 sioner, to carry out the environmental policy of
9 this state set by us, set forth in Section
10 1-0101, which is the section that deals
11 specifically and announces the legislative
12 intent to regulate the environment for the
13 benefit of the public, and then this paragraph
14 says, In doing so, the commissioner shall have
15 the power to coordinate and develop policies,
16 planning, programs related to the environment of
17 the state and regions thereof.
18 I suggest and I submit, Senator
19 Johnson and Senator Daly, that what this bill
20 does, this bill says nothing in this section
21 shall be deemed sufficient as the sole basis for
22 the promulgation of any rule or regulation not
23 otherwise directed by law.
4947
1 They are directed by law to
2 coordinate and develop policies and if the
3 purpose of this legislation is to overturn that
4 branch -- that broad grant of authority, it's
5 not going to be accomplished because unless you
6 repeal section (a) and change the text of that
7 statute, you're still going to have a broad
8 grant of authority to the department. You're
9 not going to solve the problem.
10 I understand the intent with
11 which this moves forward, but this just doesn't
12 do the job that you want it to do. There's
13 another way to do it, be right up front. Do it,
14 repeal Section 1, revoke the grant of authority
15 and then you can put DEC in the box in which you
16 want to try to put them in. This doesn't put
17 them into this box. In my opinion, it won't
18 accomplish anything. It will simply generate a
19 ton of litigation over what it means, how it
20 should be construed.
21 I'd simply point out that we
22 already have, under current law, a provision
23 that prevents DEC from exceeding its authority.
4948
1 It's challenged on a case-by-case basis.
2 Unfortunately, the reason why the Conference of
3 Mayors and Municipal Officials writes a memo in
4 opposition is because they say it's exceeded its
5 mandate by producing -- promulgating numerous
6 regulations which are contrary to legislative
7 intent.
8 The reason why they say that is
9 because every time they go to court, the DEC
10 stands up and says, No, we're not violating
11 legislative intent because the Legislature in
12 its broad grant of powers said we develop and
13 coordinate policies to protect the environment.
14 It's such a broad grant given by this
15 Legislature in 1947, the courts have said, Do
16 whatever you want, DEC; the Legislature gave you
17 the power to do whatever you want.
18 I just think that this
19 legislation, while well-intentioned, won't
20 accomplish the goal that its sponsor has
21 articulated. If we want to put DEC in a box,
22 let's do it. Repeal those sections; take away
23 the broad grant of authority explicitly. Let's
4949
1 do it right if we're going to get this done.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
3 recognizes Senator Galiber.
4 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, Mr.
5 President.
6 I had not intended to speak on
7 this, but I think that there's a need to explain
8 some of my negative votes, and they were
9 negative votes notwithstanding the fact that we
10 are heading in the same direction and we want to
11 accomplish the same thing. Those of you, some
12 have to go to your history books because you
13 weren't here then, but I was, when EnCon as it
14 was known before was a dumping ground; when we
15 couldn't find any place for anyone politically
16 we put them in EnCon. And then we changed the
17 initials and they there started our problem.
18 And under the broad powers what we did, Senator,
19 was to give to a person, I think the name
20 Diamond was the man, Diamond wrote the rules and
21 regulations based on the broad power that we
22 gave him and, as a result, we have cultured, if
23 you will, a sense of arrogance, a total
4950
1 disregard for the legislative branch of
2 government, and we have within our collective
3 power the opportunity to vitiate that arrogance
4 that I made reference to before.
5 Now, I serve on your committee
6 also with a sense of pride and dignity. I have
7 been trying very -- very, I think it was about
8 last year, about a year ago, asked that we have
9 a cumulative impact statement on the environ
10 ment, something we could have done collectively,
11 and what happened was that the state and
12 national level, they delegated that
13 responsibility down to the state and the state
14 gave it to local government.
15 We have entities out there that
16 have the authority to pass on anything they wish
17 to pass on. We have an opportunity here to put
18 a screeching halt to it. Let's not say we're
19 going to show you. Let's prove it to them.
20 Let's take their power, let's pass legislation,
21 and we would have no problem whatsoever with DEC
22 in the areas of concern.
23 We have a permit process. You
4951
1 heard Senator Mendez mention about the
2 environmental racism in hiring of people.
3 That's only a by-product of the arrogance that
4 they have in that agency.
5 We asked them down in Bronx
6 County in a radius of about five miles,
7 similarly to prevent what you brought to our
8 attention with Love Canal, many, many years
9 ago. We're saying, if you want to put something
10 in that's for a community, you should have a
11 cumulative impact statement.
12 What will this additional
13 licensing process do to this community? They
14 say we don't have to do that. Local government
15 can give their approval. State government can
16 give their approval and the fed's who sit back
17 and say, "I gave it off to the state," and some
18 of us say they should never have delegated that
19 responsibility over to the state, and the state
20 should not have given concurrent jurisdiction to
21 local government.
22 So what do we have? We have a
23 situation where we are back with a piece of
4952
1 legislation and say, We're going to spank you on
2 your wrist and we're going to say to it that if
3 you don't fulfill the application then we're
4 going to say once is enough. We have some
5 objections afterward, you're going to have to
6 comply with them.
7 Let me give you another approach
8 to that. We want an environmental impact
9 statement down in the South Bronx. They did not
10 notify the public of hearings. They left out
11 some information. We asked them to correct it.
12 Under the legislation which I would have liked
13 to have voted yes for, I voted no, because in
14 that instance the community is out of the ball
15 park. You have added on to the arrogance, if
16 you will. You have added on to this attitude
17 that the commissioner has, not personally, but
18 we built this monster, we created this ogre by
19 inactivity as far as this legislative body is
20 concerned.
21 Why in God's name can't we do it
22 simply by saying we pass a piece of legislation
23 that takes away your broad powers. You no
4953
1 longer have those powers. We are going to
2 designate what you can do and, when you need
3 something else, you have to come back to us so
4 that there won't be any ambiguity at all, none
5 whatsoever, in those crazy rules and regulations
6 that Diamond promulgated many, many years ago.
7 It's a simple process. We have a
8 confused administration as far as DEC and the
9 environment is concerned. Washington is out of
10 the ball park. The state is out of the -- in
11 the ball park. They point to local government
12 when they need to. They use it as a sword or a
13 shield. Either they hide behind the fed's or
14 they cut you up with regulations from the fed's
15 or from local government.
16 So what Senator Dollinger is
17 saying, and many of us on this side, some who
18 voted, Senator, against your legislation today,
19 is a very easy way to do it, very easy way to do
20 it. We have -- this is an issue that has no
21 partisan ramifications. DEC, we created this
22 horrible, horrible, horrible monster and we're
23 living with it, whether you're upstate,
4954
1 downstate or wherever you are.
2 Why don't we stop saying, We're
3 going to spank you on the wrist and say, we are
4 going to take your powers away from you because
5 you have misused -- you have misused what the
6 legislative intent really was. We trusted you,
7 we trusted you as an agency with the will and
8 concern of the people out there. We gave you
9 broad powers. You have abused those powers.
10 And in doing so, we're now going to take them
11 away from you.
12 It calls for a simple piece of
13 legislation, Senator, simple piece of
14 legislation, because those middle management
15 people, with especially -- especially we have a
16 wonderful opportunity. We have a new
17 commissioner coming in. You're going to hold
18 some hearings, to your credit, and I don't know
19 whether that new commissioner has been
20 contaminated to the point where, what can we do
21 about it?
22 What we can do about it is say,
23 Commissioner, we know there are some middle
4955
1 management people in all state and local
2 government agencies. They are contaminated,
3 they outlive commissioners. They outlive
4 legislators. They outlive governors. They are
5 there; they're part of the structure and one way
6 that we can change attitudes is either get rid
7 of them or change the law, and we have a golden
8 opportunity to change the law.
9 Let's take the broad powers
10 away.
11 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
12 SENATOR GALIBER: Because you
13 want, Senator, you want what I want. You want
14 what we all want. Why are we piddling with this
15 notion about the broad powers? And you gave
16 those to people with a stout heart, good
17 intentions, good will people. DEC doesn't have
18 any of those characteristics.
19 Why are we playing with them? Why
20 don't we just repeal -- why don't we take away
21 those broad powers and give them designated
22 powers as they or we see fit, not they see fit,
23 we do, because we are the government force, the
4956
1 legislative branch of government.
2 SENATOR DALY: Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Daly, I'm so overwhelmed by Senator Galiber's
5 presentation, could we just pause for a minute
6 for me to re-collect my thoughts.
7 SENATOR DALY: I would like to
8 ask him to yield to a question.
9 SENATOR GALIBER: I would.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Just
11 pause just a minute.
12 Senator Daly, we're now prepared
13 to take every word of your question down. If
14 you would like to ask Senator Galiber to yield?
15 Senator Galiber, do you yield?
16 SENATOR GALIBER: What if I don't
17 yield, Mr. President?
18 SENATOR DALY: Well, I'll ask
19 Senator Dollinger to yield.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Dollinger, will you yield to Senator Daly?
22 SENATOR DALY: They both can
23 answer this question, Mr. President. I'm sure
4957
1 you can work this out, but I gather from
2 listening to Senator Dollinger and Senator
3 Galiber, they don't think we've gone far
4 enough. I'm delighted to hear that they feel
5 the intent of this bill -- its good intent, and
6 it's something that we should put in law.
7 Now, if they're saying we haven't
8 gone far enough and that they want to submit
9 legislation which will repeal the power section,
10 I will be delighted to work with them so that -
11 and I want to know if I interpret it properly
12 what they said.
13 Are they willing to accept the
14 intent -- are they willing to go further and
15 repeal the power section or rewrite the entire
16 power section?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Galiber to respond?
19 SENATOR GALIBER: I would like,
20 yes, if I may, Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Galiber.
23 SENATOR GALIBER: It's an
4958
1 excellent question. I thought you would never
2 ask it.
3 The only slight change I would
4 like to make is this: I'm a Democrat on this
5 side of the aisle with a couple of votes over
6 here. If you are really sincere, and I suspect
7 that the mere fact that you would ask a Democrat
8 to sponsor this bill questions seriously your
9 sincerity in terms of whether you want this
10 passed or not.
11 Now, if you want it for the
12 record, you have it as far as I'm concerned. In
13 your heart's heart, you know that I'm right and
14 Senator Johnson knows that I'm right and, more
15 important, I know that both of you are right. I
16 am merely saying, rather than nitpick, why don't
17 we rather than single out certain sections, all
18 we really have to do is take away, abolish if
19 you will, vitiate if you will, that broad power
20 that we granted to them because they don't know
21 how to use the broad power.
22 A lot of us abuse it. Sometimes
23 you on the other side, because they're broad
4959
1 powers that you abuse it, we say with tongue in
2 cheek, some days we need it on other days. This
3 is an instance where we can simply take away
4 their broad powers and then we can list you on
5 all those pieces of legislation.
6 You've been too nice to me
7 Senator, you've been too nice. Don't start
8 picking away because they don't understand
9 signals. Bite off one moment and we can pass
10 your bill and say maybe these guys down there,
11 guys and dolls, are serious. We ought to
12 straighten up our act and we're going to take
13 away some more powers, and we don't want that,
14 so we're going to straighten it out and it ain't
15 going to happen with them. It ain't going to
16 happen by this bill.
17 Let's go about the business the
18 right way. Please put the bill in. I don't
19 even have a bill to star this year. I wish I
20 had one to star. I wish I had one to star, but
21 you put one in, I certainly can muster up some
22 support on this side of the aisle.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
4960
1 will read the last section.
2 Senator Dollinger.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
4 President, I'll be extremely brief.
5 I just want to follow up the
6 answer that Senator Daly or Senator Galiber gave
7 to Senator Daly and highlight the issue of
8 institutional arrogance which I think is the
9 point of my colleague's comments.
10 Every year since 1974 when we
11 passed this bill, we have amended this section
12 of the law and every time we've done it we've
13 given more power to the Department of
14 Environmental Conservation. No wonder the
15 bureaucrats in the Department of Environmental
16 Conservation are used to exercising extremely
17 broad and unchecked powers and they look to the
18 Legislature for the last 18 years, and I think
19 it's every year since 1974 we've amended this
20 statute to just increase the scope of their
21 power.
22 The arrogance which may have
23 started off in a small little embryo is now a
4961
1 full grown walking around living thing and if
2 we're going to get it back, if we're going to
3 get this agency under control, if we're going to
4 avoid the problems that Senator Johnson and
5 Senator Daly detailed in the regulators over
6 stepping their legislative permission, it seems
7 to me we've got to do a lot more than simply
8 pass this bill which I think will be easily
9 misconstrued and not accomplish the goal.
10 But whatever beast we put into
11 existence in 1974 we have been feeding it since
12 then and now it has grown to Gargantuan size so
13 that simply trying to put the beast back in the
14 cage through this legislation I don't think will
15 accomplish the goal. We've got more work to
16 do. It's a good effort. I just don't think it
17 does the job.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Now the
19 Secretary will read the last section.
20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Johnson to close debate.
23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, I'd like
4962
1 to conclude by saying that we're not opposed to
2 the department making regulations in accordance
3 with specific grants of authority. We're saying
4 this general power functions and duties of the
5 department should not be the basis of any
6 regulation. Simple as that.
7 As far as the comments about we
8 pass laws every year, yes, we pass laws about
9 fish, we pass laws about solid waste recycling,
10 we have no problem with regulations being
11 drafted under that, but under this general grant
12 of authority should not be the basis of any
13 regulations, so we are essentially vitiating the
14 general power by saying they can not use it
15 without a further grant of authority.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
17 will read the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
4963
1 the results.
2 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
3 the negative on Calendar Number 723 are Senators
4 Babbush, Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Galiber,
5 Gold, Goodman, Jones, Kruger, Leichter, Levy,
6 Markowitz, Ohrenstein, Onorato, Oppenheimer,
7 Smith and Stachowski. Ayes 41, nays 17.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
9 is passed.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Leichter.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: May I have
14 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
15 on Calendar 720?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
17 objection, Senator Leichter will be recorded in
18 the negative on Calendar Number 720.
19 Secretary will continue to read
20 the controversial calendar.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 943, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7784,
23 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
4964
1 Law.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
3 will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 946, by Senator Daly, Senate Bill Number 7787,
14 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
15 Law and the State Finance Law.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Daly, Senator Leichter has asked for an
19 explanation.
20 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
21 Mr. President, by title, we call
22 this bill the Voluntary Remediation Act -
23 hopefully it will be an act -- and the purpose
4965
1 have this legislation, Mr. President, is to
2 speed up the clean-up of hazardous, contaminated
3 sites in this state.
4 Basically, what this legislation
5 does, it allows a company or an individual to
6 approach the Department of Environmental
7 Conservation and say, "I think I have a
8 contamination problem here, I want to clean it
9 up." They work with DEC, and DEC reviews the
10 remediation process, the remediation work that's
11 being done, then approves it. After that, when
12 it's completed, the party gets a notice of
13 completion and also a guarantee, a covenant, not
14 to sue.
15 As we know, Mr. President, we
16 have many, many sites in this state that could
17 well be hazardous, well over 700, and unfortun
18 ately the process is too slow. We still have,
19 and we've been doing this now for 15 years, Mr.
20 President, and we still have as many sites today
21 on the list as we had 15 years ago. As one
22 comes off, another goes on.
23 What has happened, Mr. President,
4966
1 is that companies are -- do not want at times to
2 bring to the attention of the DEC that they
3 might have a problem because then they are
4 eligible for the penalties that DEC has the
5 right to place on them.
6 As we also know, Mr. President,
7 the Superfund monies could be running out by the
8 end of the decade. We want to get more and more
9 people from the private sector in to work with
10 us in the cleaning up of the sites, their sites,
11 and I think this is good legislation.
12 One of the things I want to point
13 out, particularly is this legislation, under the
14 lender liability bill which this house had the
15 wisdom to pass just earlier today is particular
16 ly -- I should say particularly concerns what is
17 happening in our cities and what's happening in
18 our inner cities where we have a property being
19 deserted, so many of which are contaminated
20 which, because of the existing laws, which again
21 hopefully we're going to change it because we
22 passed earlier today the lender liability bill
23 which would hold a bank responsible and,
4967
1 therefore, banks are not lending money for those
2 properties in the inner city, companies want to
3 go in and use those properties, use that
4 property. They can work out a voluntary
5 remediation program with DEC. They can work out
6 a loan -- can't function without money. You
7 have to have someone who is willing to invest
8 money in that property and, if we continue to
9 hold banks liable, then banks will not invest.
10 What I'm saying, my colleagues,
11 is that this bill and the lender liability bill
12 is particularly aimed -- will be a particular
13 help, I should say, to our inner cities in
14 developing properties within the inner cities
15 and otherwise would be deserted and companies
16 will go out to virgin land where there is no
17 chance of contamination and that's where we need
18 businesses. That's where we need jobs, and I
19 think both of these bills will help us in
20 addition to the primary thrust of the
21 legislation helping to clean up contaminated or
22 hazardous sites.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
4968
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Leichter.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
4 Daly would be so good as to yield.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Daly, do you yield?
7 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Daly yields.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator,
11 before getting into the substance of the bill, I
12 just want to be sure that I heard or understood
13 correctly something I heard in your peroration.
14 Did you say this bill will create jobs?
15 SENATOR DALY: I said this bill
16 will help create jobs. Yes, Mr. President, I
17 said it.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Leichter.
20 SENATOR DALY: Particularly, Mr.
21 President, in places where we need them the
22 most, the inner cities.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry,
4969
1 Senator. Maybe I'm missing something.
2 SENATOR DALY: The inner cities.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: I know it's
4 the mantra to get up on any sort of bill and
5 say, This will create jobs, but how will this
6 create jobs and particularly in the inner
7 cities?
8 SENATOR DALY: What's happening
9 now, Mr. President, is properties are being
10 deserted in the inner -- properties are being
11 deserted in the inner cities. No developer, no
12 development wants to go in.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Are we on Bill
14 946, Senator?
15 SENATOR DALY: We are on 946,
16 Senator, and I think if you'll accept the points
17 that I'm trying to make in answer to your
18 question, I'm saying the voluntary remediation
19 bill will help encourage entrepreneurs,
20 companies, to go in to inner city properties and
21 clean them up so they can be used for the
22 development of jobs.
23 At the present time, because of
4970
1 the -- the existing law and DEC's power over
2 that company, companies will not do that. They
3 will not go in and, if they're going to start a
4 company or expand a company, they're not going
5 to go into the inner city, pick up land that
6 could be or will be contaminated. They're going
7 to go out to the rural areas where there is
8 virgin land and they don't have to worry.
9 Now, if they can go in, they want
10 this property. If they can make an arrangement
11 with the Department of Environmental
12 Conservation for a voluntary remediation of that
13 property, as this bill allows, which you can't
14 do right now, then that property can be cleaned
15 up by the people who want to start that
16 business, or expand it, and thus create jobs.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you.
18 Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Leichter.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: I did want
22 Senator Daly to yield, but before I deal with
23 the substantive merits of the bill, I may end up
4971
1 supporting the bill.
2 I think it has some good ideas in
3 it, Senator, but I would not, frankly, sell this
4 bill on the basis that this is going to really
5 create jobs in the inner cities. I mean I just
6 don't think that's -- that's a realistic sales
7 point for this bill. As I said, it almost seems
8 like any bill we have, you get up and say, it
9 will create jobs. You sit down because you -
10 you've said everything about the bill that is
11 needed to convince your colleagues to vote for
12 it.
13 I think if all the bills that you
14 guys are claiming are going to create jobs
15 actually did what you said, there wouldn't be a
16 single unemployed person in New York and most
17 people would have to work twice.
18 Senator, I don't think the
19 difficulty of the problem that we have in the
20 inner city relates to the difficulty of cleaning
21 up contaminated sites. Obviously there are a
22 lot of problems, difficulties, that we have
23 relating to creating of a better economic
4972
1 climate in the inner city, but I -- I don't
2 think that this bill has any bearing on that
3 whatsoever, but having said that, I think there
4 may be a definite value, Senator, for having
5 what I would call sort of a fast track way of
6 cleaning up sites that maybe don't have too much
7 of a contamination problem that maybe it makes
8 sense to do it in what you say voluntary, sort
9 of a quasi-voluntary way because you've got to
10 -- you've got to get the permission of the
11 department before you can do that, and it's in
12 relation to that, Senator, that I have a
13 question that I wanted to ask you if you would
14 be good enough to yield.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Daly, do you yield?
17 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Daly yields.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: The department
21 has stated that it strongly opposes this, and
22 again it's that one liner, and I think it's
23 appalling, it's outrageous that a state
4973
1 department would not have the decency and show
2 enough respect for the Legislature to try to
3 explain what its position is. Unfortunately, we
4 have to deal with this, but one of our staff
5 people checked with the department.
6 One point they made which may
7 have some merit and that's what my question
8 relates to, is that you require the department
9 within 30 days after an application is made for
10 voluntary remediation to respond, and I
11 understand the department felt that that was an
12 unreasonable period of time. I don't want to
13 give them a long period of time. I understand
14 your -- your purpose is let's get the thing done
15 quickly, but would you comment on that? Is 30
16 days possibly unreasonable?
17 SENATOR DALY: No, it isn't
18 because really, 30 days is just to determine the
19 eligibility. That's all the 30-day period is
20 used for. The means to clean up the site, that
21 comes later, but also, Senator, I might add that
22 DEC never spoke to me about it, never sent me a
23 memo on the bill. I didn't know they had that
4974
1 objection, but I really feel that, if that's
2 their only objection, the fact that -- that they
3 have -- they have to do within -- within 30
4 days, they have to do that, I -- hunh! I don't
5 think it's much of an objection, Senator.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let
7 me ask you if you would be kind enough to
8 continue to yield.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Daly, you continue to yield?
11 SENATOR DALY: Certainly.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Daly yields.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: You have a
15 provision in here which says an affected person
16 who implements a voluntary remedial program
17 pursuant to this title shall not be held liable
18 for claims concerning matters addressed in such
19 remedial program or certificate of completion.
20 Does that mean that, if the
21 remediation is done in a negligent or careless
22 manner, that the affected person cannot be held
23 responsible?
4975
1 SENATOR DALY: Not if it's done
2 in a negligent manner, no, Senator.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well -
4 SENATOR DALY: Counsel just said,
5 you know, the program is approved by DEC before
6 they do it. DEC approves the program, the
7 remediation program. So nothing goes on,
8 nothing is done to that site unless DEC signs
9 off.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. If
11 he doesn't -
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Daly, you continue to yield?
14 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Daly continues to yield.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 If the person does it in
20 accordance with the remediation plan, what
21 you're saying is that, at that point, he can not
22 be held liable.
23 SENATOR DALY: That's right.
4976
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: So that the
2 department, in effect, is almost a guarantor,
3 not in the sense that you could sue the
4 department although maybe you could.
5 SENATOR DALY: Well -
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: I just wonder,
7 Senator, whether that's really giving too great
8 an exemption to -- to an affected person.
9 SENATOR DALY: Well, that's the
10 carrot, Senator; that's exactly it. That's the
11 carrot that we have in this legislation to
12 encourage companies to come forward and say,
13 "Listen, I have a contamination problem, I have
14 a hazardous waste problem, I want to clean it up
15 now. You tell me how to do it, you approve the
16 plan, I'll do it because I want to come back in
17 here and keep this plant moving, I mean open. I
18 want to put some new jobs in here," getting back
19 to the jobs, Senator.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Senator.
21 SENATOR DALY: And I'm not going
22 to do it, let's face it, if I'm not going to get
23 protection from DEC then I'm not going to do
4977
1 it. I'm not going to put my money into that.
2 You have to have some final point when a person
3 feels I've done what I had to do and now I'm
4 safe. The reality of that Damocles sword
5 hanging over my head constantly is going to make
6 me hesitate and, very frankly, is going to make
7 me say, No, I'm not going to do it here; I'm
8 going to move out of the city and out to the
9 country or wherever.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, then
11 let me, if I may, go back to the question of the
12 timing by which DEC has to act. You say the 30
13 days are only to determine the eligibility.
14 SENATOR DALY: Yes.
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: How much time
16 will they have to really consider the voluntary
17 remediation program so that the department can
18 indeed be assured that that remediation program
19 will deal effectively with the problem?
20 SENATOR DALY: What you would do,
21 Senator, in that case there would be an
22 agreement signed between DEC and the company or
23 individual cleaning up the site. That's an
4978
1 individual contract that would be signed by
2 DEC.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. And what
4 you're saying, there's no time.
5 SENATOR DALY: The legislation
6 does not have any time in it. We think that's
7 wise. We think that's wise. We think DEC and
8 the company or the individual should sit down
9 and work out a time frame.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Mr.
11 President.
12 SENATOR DALY: Just not to let it
13 drag.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I thank the
15 good Senator.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Leichter, on the bill.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. I thank
19 my good friend for his explanation.
20 I understand that this is
21 certainly an effort to try to get some of these
22 sites cleaned up in a more expeditious manner.
23 Absent really an explanation by the department
4979
1 of its opposition and no other memorandum, and
2 understanding the concerns that Senator Daly
3 has, I'm going to support the bill.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
5 will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays 1,
12 Senator Galiber recorded in the negative.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 Senator Stavisky.
16 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President,
17 without objection, I should like to be recorded
18 in the negative on Calendar 720, Calendar 723
19 and also 563. Thank you.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
21 objection, Senator Stavisky will be recorded in
22 the negative on Calendars Number 563, 720 and
23 723.
4980
1 Senator Espada.
2 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President,
3 I, too, seek unanimous consent to be recorded in
4 the negative on Calendar Number 563 and 720.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
6 objection, Senator Espada will be recorded in
7 the negative on Calendar Number 563 and Calendar
8 Number 720.
9 Senator Montgomery.
10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
11 President. I would like to unanimous consent to
12 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number
13 723.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
15 objection, Senator Montgomery will be recorded
16 in the negative on Calendar Number 723.
17 Secretary will continue to call
18 the controversial calendar.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1040, by Senator Johnson, Senate Bill Number
21 7387-A, an act to amend the State Administrative
22 Procedure Act.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
4981
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Gold.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. We're going
4 to want an explanation. We're going to want an
5 explanation, and there may be some debate on
6 this, but I have some members who have to go to
7 a function. Is it possible to open the roll
8 call and allow Senator Mendez to vote on this?
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
11 will read the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Negative.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Montgomery?
20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Not me.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Mendez.
23 SENATOR MENDEZ: Negative.
4982
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Mendez, yes, no, negative? Senator Mendez in
3 the negative.
4 Secretary will withdraw the roll
5 call. Senator Gold, do you wish an explanation
6 on this bill? No?
7 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Johnson, Senator Gold is asking an explanation.
10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
11 this -- this measure will provide that all
12 agencies secure an estimate of the accuracy of
13 their cost to agencies and to business from the
14 Department of Economic Development.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
20 roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Hold on. Hold
23 on. Hold on. Hold it a minute.
4983
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Gold.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Please hold just a
4 minute.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
6 Johnson, if you would yield.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Withdraw
8 the roll call. Senator Johnson, Senator
9 Leichter is asking you to yield. Do you yield?
10 Senator Johnson, do you yield?
11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Johnson yields, Senator Leichter.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do I
15 understand that this bill will give the
16 Department of Economic Development the power to
17 review regulatory impact statements by other
18 agencies?
19 SENATOR JOHNSON: The economic
20 impact of the regulation, yes, by other
21 agencies, yes; that's correct.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: And can the
23 department overrule the determination by another
4984
1 state agency that it wishes to proceed with a
2 regulation?
3 SENATOR JOHNSON: No, I don't
4 think it can do that, Senator. All they can say
5 is that we think this is going to cost business
6 so many dollars and that would be part of the
7 memorandum that goes with the bill.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator,
9 if -
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Johnson, do you continue to yield?
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you would
13 continue to yield.
14 Can I draw your attention,
15 Senator, to page 2, line 29, where it says to
16 review, comment upon, amend and approve the
17 regulatory impact statement. Doesn't that imply
18 that it also has the power, one, to disapprove,
19 certainly clearly states that it can amend the
20 regulation.
21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Senator,
22 we're answering questions here, and, yes, that's
23 what it says, Senator, that they would have to
4985
1 approve the figures submitted by the other
2 agency, that they would be correct in that.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, then
4 it's correct to say that you're really making
5 Department of Economic Development a super
6 agency that has the right to pass on the work of
7 any other agency insofar as it involves
8 regulatory impact statements?
9 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, we're
10 not really affecting the law. We're affecting
11 the appraisal of what the economic impact of
12 that role would be upon the regulated
13 businesses. We feel in the past we haven't got
14 the full story from a lot of the agencies who
15 minimized the impact or almost said it's de
16 minimus when really it's a substantial impact on
17 the regulated members of our community.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let
19 me ask you this question.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Johnson, do you continue to yield?
22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4986
1 Johnson yields.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is there
3 anything which precludes the Department of
4 Economic Development in passing on the
5 regulatory impact statement of another agency?
6 SENATOR JOHNSON: We haven't had
7 any impact, any comments from them. In very few
8 cases have we had any comments at all.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
10 wonder if you could comment on this concern of
11 mine, and that is that by requiring the
12 department to approve the regulatory impact
13 statement of every other agency, are we just
14 adding another delay? I know we've had a number
15 of concerns expressed today in the debate on the
16 bills about the lengthy regulatory process. Now
17 you're adding just another layer.
18 Doesn't that have the effect of
19 further hindering an expeditious resolution of
20 regulatory procedure?
21 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I
22 don't know what to say. I think I agree with
23 Senator Galiber in the previous discussion here
4987
1 where we ought to just go back and take some of
2 these laws completely off the books and start
3 over again but, Senator, we're not prepared to
4 do that right now, so what we're trying to do is
5 introduce some sensitivity to the impact on the
6 regulated community because, as I mentioned
7 earlier, the loss of jobs and businesses leaving
8 our state and people fleeing almost from this
9 regulatory behemoth which is overcoming all of
10 them.
11 What we want to know what this is
12 going to cost and maybe the department would, or
13 the agency that's subject here to this
14 requirement would look twice and make sure they
15 got the proper estimate before we send out the
16 new -- the new regulations, and so forth, so I
17 think that's the problem.
18 It's -- get the Administrative
19 Procedure Act to give us some straight figures
20 from a department which is concerned with the
21 state of our economy in the state of New York.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Mr.
23 President, one more question if Senator Johnson
4988
1 would yield.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Johnson, do you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Johnson? Senator Johnson yields.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I see
8 there's no appropriation, although we're now
9 giving a much broader responsibility to the
10 Department of Economic Development. You're at
11 least -- you're conceding that there will be
12 some fiscal implications. You say, Well, it's
13 minimal, but, Senator, it bothers me and I
14 raised it today in committee. I raised it on
15 the floor yesterday with Senator Bruno. I've
16 raised it in many other instances, the -- what I
17 think is an unfortunate habit that's developing
18 particularly on the part of the majority to
19 impose mandates on state agencies and never
20 provide the financing, the funding for it. It's
21 -- it's -- it must be clear to you and certain
22 ly is to me, should be clear to everybody that,
23 if you're not going to require the department to
4989
1 review all of these regulatory impact
2 statements, you want them to make a thorough
3 review, they're going to be dealing in an area
4 where, by the way, they're not particularly
5 familiar, whether it's the economy or health or
6 other areas. Now this department has suddenly
7 become a super-department and has to make
8 determinations. They may have to make a
9 determination as to some regulation affecting
10 hospitals. This is a form of economic
11 development and the department has to now, under
12 your legislation, review the economic impact.
13 They're going to have to hire
14 people for that. They're going to have to make
15 studies. Not only will it delay it, it will
16 cost money. How are they going to do this
17 without being given some additional
18 appropriation?
19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, Senator,
20 I don't know. I think the agency has not
21 objected to the bill. They haven't put out a
22 memo in opposition. That doesn't mean they
23 approve it, but they probably know themselves
4990
1 that we've got to get a better handle on what
2 we're doing here.
3 We're finding, even on the
4 federal level, the federal Congressmen are
5 demanding or taking a pledge that we'll put no
6 more mandates on state and local government.
7 Yet every regulation is a mandate on some
8 regulated person or some agency or something,
9 and these things go on continuously.
10 I think if this should become law
11 then I think DED would have to figure out how
12 they're going to do it, reassign personnel, some
13 things that are not necessary, maybe -- maybe an
14 agency in Malaysia to promote business in New
15 York, maybe that's not necessary. Maybe they
16 could close that office up and bring those
17 people back here and see that we stick to our
18 knitting and keep the business and jobs in the
19 state of New York by not imposing onerous
20 regulations which cost a lot of money.
21 We have an economic crisis in
22 this state. I don't need to tell you, Senator,
23 you know it. Just the other day, we celebrated
4991
1 the fact that our revenues went up 2.4 percent.
2 New Jersey's tax revenues went up 9.7 percent,
3 so we're not doing everything great. We're
4 lucky that the economy came back a little bit.
5 We've got to do a lot more things
6 to have a healthy economy in this state, and one
7 of the things we're needing to do is to know
8 what we're doing in terms of rules and
9 regulations, Senator.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
11 on the bill.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Leichter, on the bill.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
15 Johnson, I agree we have to do things, but I
16 think we have to do intelligent things. I don't
17 know whether we have to run off in every
18 direction; I don't know whether that's
19 particularly helpful, Senator.
20 Let me say I have a number of
21 problems with this bill, but let me try to deal
22 with this underlying basis, Senator. You talk
23 about the economy; Senator Daly talks about the
4992
1 job creation, and so on. We appreciate that we
2 have a problem in this state. Much of it is due
3 to national and by and large economic forces
4 over which we have extremely little control, and
5 there's very little that we can do, frankly,
6 that's going to make enormous changes in the
7 economy. I think we can affect it in the
8 margin.
9 There was an article in the paper
10 the other day, it certainly should be no
11 surprise to anybody that this great tax bill
12 that we have passed is probably going to have a
13 minimal effect in any effect on job creation.
14 So, Senator, to put forward these bills as
15 Senator Daly did, you know, this is a great job
16 creation bill humbug, or that this bill is
17 really going to avoid the expenses and the
18 burdens that are now imposed on corporations by
19 unwise regulations.
20 So putting that aside, it may
21 make sense under certain circumstances to do
22 some of the things you propose. I thought
23 Senator Daly's bill made sense just from the
4993
1 viewpoint of trying to clean up some
2 contaminated sites, but I don't think it's -
3 and if it makes sense, Senator, to do this, to
4 give that department this power to review every
5 regulatory impact statement, then you've got to
6 give them the money to do it.
7 I mean this Republican idea that
8 you can increase government functions, because
9 this is an increase of a function, that you can
10 cut taxes, and do all of this and that all of
11 this can be done without in any way affecting
12 the expenditures of government, just -- just
13 really makes no sense whatsoever.
14 You clearly can't do that. If
15 this makes sense, then, I think you ought to
16 have the fortitude, if I may put it that way, of
17 putting in an appropriation and, if anybody then
18 says, Oh, my God, you increased government
19 spending, you said, Yeah, I did it, because it
20 provides a government function which is very
21 important, that -- that it just seems to me
22 that, unless you do this, I don't know how we
23 can take any of this legislation seriously.
4994
1 But I think that even with an
2 appropriation, this bill would give me a lot of
3 problems because I submit to you that this
4 department is not in a position to understand
5 the economic impact of regulations that are made
6 by other state agencies. In some instances
7 maybe, in other instances, I think in the health
8 field, I just don't think that they could do
9 that. I think in transportation, I can see many
10 areas where the Department of Transportation has
11 a much better understanding of the economic
12 impact than the Department of Economic
13 Development. Doesn't have the people with the
14 background in these areas. They don't have the
15 knowledge and all that you're requiring in
16 imposing on that department that they study anew
17 and afresh determinations that have been made by
18 other departments.
19 I have no objection to that
20 department, if it looks at a regulation and
21 says, We think there's an error here for the
22 Department of Economic Development to contact
23 whether it's Transportation, DEC or Health or
4995
1 whoever put out this regulation, say, We have
2 some question, but they have that power now, but
3 to require that in every instance they review
4 the regulatory impact statement, that they
5 approve it, delays the procedure, makes it more
6 expensive, and will involve the department in
7 areas where it's totally untrained.
8 So far from speeding up the
9 process, making, if you will, the state more
10 business friendly, I think you're going to delay
11 the enactment of regulations that may, in fact,
12 be beneficial to business. You're going to
13 impose unnecessary work on a department that,
14 frankly, may not be qualified to do this.
15 I don't see this a help at all.
16 I think this is a -- this is a hindrance, and I
17 -- I think it's a mistake to enact this
18 legislation.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Dollinger.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
22 Mr. President.
23 I share most of the comments that
4996
1 Senator Leichter made. I haven't quite figured
2 out how I'll vote on this bill, but I guess I
3 was reminded in sitting here it ties in with the
4 point that we talked about earlier about
5 institutional arrogance, and it's unfortunate,
6 but I get this little image in my head.
7 I have a 15-year-old son, and I
8 keep thinking, Gee, you know, wasn't it nice
9 when he was a little tiny kid. But what
10 happened is I kept feeding him and feeding him
11 and he grew up and, my gosh, now he's about two
12 inches shorter than I am and about three months
13 ago, he and I had a little wrestling match in my
14 living room, watched by my other children and my
15 wife, in which, frankly, he just about beat the
16 daylights out of me.
17 In some of ways, it's similar to
18 what we go through here. We create a nice
19 little agency. We want to give them a nice
20 little thing to do, but we keep feeding them
21 responsibility. We have fed the Department of
22 Environmental Conservation, by lending them
23 broad powers every year for the last 16 years;
4997
1 just feed them more and more and suddenly when
2 we look at them they're growing outside the box.
3 They're big and strong and they can beat up
4 their old man.
5 Well, we're the old men; we're
6 the old man. If we're going to take control
7 over these agencies, we have the power. Unlike
8 myself, I'll just continue to watch my son get
9 bigger and bigger and eventually he will be able
10 to beat me up, and that will be settled. But we
11 still have the power to do it. We can do it on
12 a case-by-case basis.
13 I share a lot of Senator
14 Leichter's concerns, and I'm, frankly, not sure
15 even as I stand here how I'm going to vote, but
16 recognize that we're feeding the Department of
17 Economic Development by giving them a huge grant
18 of authority, an enormous grant of authority.
19 They can overturn, amend and, where necessary,
20 approve every single regulation enacted by every
21 single department in this state.
22 I agree with Senator Leichter, I
23 do think it's a bit hypocritical to do that and
4998
1 in your fiscal note accompanying the -- the
2 bill, you say possible savings from reduced
3 state regulatory burdens. I think the first
4 thing that Mr. Tese will do is ask us for a
5 couple hundred employees so that he'll be able
6 to do what we've told him to do, and next thing
7 you know it will not only be DEC that is outside
8 the box and taking power that we don't want, but
9 it will be DED that is doing exactly the same
10 thing.
11 I caution my colleagues before we
12 do this.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
14 will read the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
16 act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
18 roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll. )
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
21 the results.
22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
23 the negative on Calendar Number 1040 are
4999
1 Senators Espada, Galiber, Gold, Leichter,
2 Mendez, Montgomery, Ohrenstein and Oppenheimer.
3 Ayes 50, nays 8.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
5 is passed.
6 Secretary will continue to call
7 the controversial calendar.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 1121, by Senator Wright, Senate Bill Number
10 6941, an act to amend the Executive Law and the
11 State Administrative Procedure Act.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
13 will read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
21 is passed.
22 SENATOR PADAVAN: Any
23 housekeeping, Mr. President?
5000
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, we
2 have some housekeeping.
3 Senator Libous.
4 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
5 on behalf of Senator Skelos, I wish to call up
6 his bill, Senate Print Number 2272-A recalled
7 from the Assembly which is now at the desk.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
9 will read.
10 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
11 Skelos, Senate Bill Number 2272-A, an act to
12 amend the Real Property Tax Law.
13 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
14 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
15 bill was passed.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: On the
17 motion to reconsider the vote by which the bill
18 was passed, Secretary will read the roll on
19 reconsideration.
20 (The Secretary called the roll on
21 reconsideration. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President.
5001
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Libous.
3 SENATOR LIBOUS: I now offer up
4 the following amendments.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
6 Amendments are received and adopted.
7 Senator Libous.
8 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
9 have one more. On behalf of Senator Skelos, I
10 wish to call up his bill, Print Number 7129-A
11 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the
12 desk.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
14 will read.
15 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
16 Skelos, Senate Bill Number 7129-A, Economic
17 Development Law.
18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
19 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
20 bill was passed.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll on reconsideration.
23 (The Secretary called the roll on
5002
1 reconsideration. )
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
3 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
4 now offer up the following amendments.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
6 Amendments are received and adopted.
7 Senator Wright.
8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I
9 wish to call up my bill, Print Number 6861-A,
10 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the
11 desk.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
13 will read.
14 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
15 Wright, Senate Bill Number 6861-A, authorize the
16 city of Ogdensburg School District to finance
17 the projected accumulated deficit.
18 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I
19 now move to reconsider vote by which this bill
20 was passed.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
22 will call the roll on reconsideration.
23 (The Secretary called the roll on
5003
1 reconsideration. )
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
3 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I
4 now offer the following amendments.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
6 Amendments are received and adopted.
7 Senator Wright.
8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President,
9 on behalf of Senator LaValle, on page number 42,
10 I offer the following amendments to Calendar
11 Number 1067, Senate Print Number 8063, and ask
12 that said bill retain its place on the Third
13 Reading Calendar.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
15 Amendments are received and adopted. Bill will
16 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
17 Senator Stafford.
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr.
19 President.
20 I would announce that tomorrow
21 during the session, we will be announcing a
22 meeting of the Committee on Finance in Room 332,
23 time to be announced.
5004
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
2 will be a meeting of the Senate Committee on
3 Finance tomorrow during session to be called
4 from the floor, time to be announced at that
5 time.
6 Senator Goodman.
7 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President,
8 I'd like to remind members and staff that
9 tomorrow evening is our annual night at Saratoga
10 Performing Arts Center. There will be a
11 performance of Madama Butterfly given by the New
12 York City Opera. This is a gala spring event
13 which all members and staff have been invited
14 to. Those who have been invited know they
15 have. We look forward to welcoming you both for
16 dinner and for a delightful performance, and I
17 want to be certain that everybody makes it a
18 point to come and to bring some bug repellant
19 with them.
20 Thank you very much.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank you
22 for the reminder, Senator Goodman.
23 Senator Padavan, that completes
5005
1 the housekeeping.
2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President,
3 there being no further business, I move that we
4 adjourn until tomorrow at 11:00 a.m.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow at 11:00
7 a.m.
8 (Whereupon at 6:11 p.m., the
9 Senate adjourned.)
10
11
12
13
14
15