Regular Session - March 28, 1995
2583
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 March 28, 1995
10 3:01 p.m.
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12
13 REGULAR SESSION
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16
17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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2584
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senate will come to order. Ask the members to
4 find their places. I would ask all of the
5 members of the gallery, the members of the
6 Legislature, rise and join with me in saying the
7 Pledge of Allegiance.
8 (The assemblage repeated the
9 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
10 We're very pleased today to be
11 joined by Dr. Roger Ellison of the Mountainside
12 Bible Chapel in Schroon Lake to deliver the
13 prayer.
14 Dr. Ellison.
15 DR. ROGER ELLISON: Let us pray
16 together. Dear Lord, we call upon You at this
17 time to invite Your presence here in this
18 place. You tell us in Your word that these who
19 are before me are men and women who are
20 appointed at Your hand. They are ministers of
21 God. And so, Lord, I pray for them today, the
22 decisions that they must make, the things that
23 pull them in so many directions. Give O God,
2585
1 Your wisdom and may the decisions that are made
2 by this assembly be that which would honor You,
3 which would enable Your people to follow You.
4 Lord, we pray that in every need,
5 personal and public, that are possessed by these
6 dear men and women, that You might be very near,
7 meet those needs today. We pray it in the name
8 of our precious Savior who loved us and gave
9 himself for us in Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Reading
11 of the Journal.
12 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
13 Monday, March 27th. The Senate met pursuant to
14 adjournment, Senator Kuhl in the Chair. The
15 Journal of Sunday, March 26th, was read and
16 approved. On motion, the Senate adjourned.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing
18 no objection, the Journal stands approved as
19 read.
20 Presentation of petitions.
21 Messages from the Assembly.
22 Messages from the Governor.
23 Reports of standing committees.
2586
1 Reports of select committees.
2 Communications and reports from
3 state officers.
4 Motions and resolutions.
5 The Chair recognizes Senator
6 Cook.
7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, on
8 page 8, I offer the following amendments to
9 Calendar 108, Senate Print 1538, and ask that
10 said bill be recommitted to the Committee on
11 Education.
12 And on behalf of Senator Maltese,
13 please place a sponsor's star on Calendar Number
14 278.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor's
16 star will be placed on Calendar Number 278.
17 The Chair recognizes Senator
18 Bruno.
19 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
20 would like at this time to call an immediate
21 meeting of the Finance Committee in Room 332.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
23 will be an immediate meeting of the Finance
2587
1 Committee in Room 332, Majority Conference
2 Room.
3 The Chair recognizes Senator
4 Bruno.
5 SENATOR BRUNO: And, Mr.
6 President, at this time I would ask that we move
7 to adopt the Resolution Calendar.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 motion is to adopt the Resolution Calendar. All
10 those in favor signify by saying aye.
11 (Response of "Aye".)
12 Opposed, nay.
13 (There was no response.)
14 The resolution is adopted.
15 Senator Bruno.
16 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, at
17 this time, can we take up the non-controversial
18 calendar?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will read the non-controversial
21 calendar.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 205, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Bill 601, an
2588
1 act to amend the Navigation Law, in relation to
2 public hearings prior to adoption of local laws
3 regulating vessels.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay it
5 aside.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 210, by Senator Stafford, Senate Bill 624, an
8 act to amend the County Law, in relation to
9 authorizing the county of Franklin to appoint
10 three public defenders.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
13 bill aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 214, by Senator LaValle, Senate Bill 1368, an
16 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to
17 expending from fire district revenue amounts.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
20 bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 215, by Senator Larkin, Senate Bill 2090-A, an
23 act to amend -
2589
1 SENATOR LARKIN: Lay it aside for
2 the day.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
4 bill aside for the day.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 217, by Senator Present, Senate Bill 1930, an
7 act to amend the State Administrative Procedure
8 Act.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
11 bill aside.
12 Senator Bruno, that completes the
13 non-controversial calendar.
14 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
15 can we now take up the controversial calendar?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Secretary will read the controversial calendar.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 205, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 601, an
20 act to amend the Navigation Law, in relation to
21 public hearings prior to the adoption of local
22 laws.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation,
2590
1 please.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Nozzolio, an explanation has been asked for by
4 Senator Paterson.
5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: This measure
6 is designed to provide additional notice to
7 those individuals and to provide public hearings
8 when a local law is adopted which would, in some
9 way, change those laws of nagivation in
10 particular areas.
11 I represent a large coastline of
12 Lake Ontario and, from time to time, there are
13 requests from local governments to change laws
14 governing the bays and harbors of my district.
15 What this bill does is that -
16 sets a requirement that -- rather than a local
17 government just deciding without having public
18 input, that prior to the adoption of a law
19 regarding a vessel, that they do go out and seek
20 that input and have the benefit of public
21 scrutiny before they engage in official
22 conduct.
23 This measure passed the Senate
2591
1 last year 51 to zero and we're hopeful that it
2 will pass the Senate again this year and seek
3 action in the Assembly.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
5 recognizes Senator Paterson.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
7 would Senator Nozzolio yield for a question?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Nozzolio, do you yield to Senator Paterson for a
10 question?
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Senator yields.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
15 Nozzolio, the required length of time for
16 posting of notices for village zoning issues, as
17 I understand, is ten days, and it's a pretty
18 important issue for a village to involve itself
19 in. The notice of time that varies on the
20 dissolution of villages is 10 to 20 days. So it
21 seems to me that you have an excessive length of
22 time for notification in your particular bill.
23 Can you explain to me why you arrived at that
2592
1 amount?
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I would be
3 glad to, Senator. I know you're most familiar
4 with metropolitan regions of the state, very
5 intensely populated regions that have a great
6 number of rules and regulations on their books.
7 I tend to come from an area of the state that
8 doesn't have as many complex rules and
9 regulations. Many areas in my district have not
10 adopted specific zoning yet. What we're saying
11 is that when -- we're getting to a point where
12 vessels in the use of nagivational waterways is
13 something a little bit different and we're
14 suggesting that that difference be recognized
15 with additional public input.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
17 recognizes Senator Paterson.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Would the
19 Senator yield for another question, please?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Nozzolio, do you yield for another question?
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2593
1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Has there been
3 a great number of complaints from local
4 governments about local governments setting
5 their own regulations when it came to vessels?
6 Is this something that we really need in light
7 of just a general interest, and even in Governor
8 Pataki's state-of-the-state message, he starts
9 talking about short-circuiting government. Can
10 you explain what the need is that met the
11 threshold that caused you to feel that we needed
12 to change the law?
13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Whenever you
14 have changes in nagivation, those changes are -
15 can only be enhanced by having the people that
16 are most affected know about them. What we're
17 only suggesting here, Mr. Paterson -- Senator
18 Paterson, is that when there are laws regarding
19 the speed of vessel operation anchoring other
20 safety law changes -- it's not just the land use
21 that we're talking about, it's also speed
22 limiting and other questions of vessel operation
23 -- that we believe there needs to be more
2594
1 review, more input, and that when there is a
2 restriction on the navigable water that was
3 heretofore not made, we think that to welcome
4 public comment makes sense.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Secretary -
7 Senator Dollinger.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, Mr.
9 President. Would the sponsor yield for a
10 question?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Nozzolio, do you yield to Senator Dollinger?
13 The Senator yields.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I understand,
15 and I appreciate the explanation of this bill.
16 I think there's some very good things about it
17 that will provide additional notice, but my
18 question is this bill is really a form of
19 mandate, isn't it, to local governments to do
20 something? Aren't we telling them to do
21 something that they don't currently do?
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: We're
23 suggesting that local governments, when dealing
2595
1 with an issue of nagivation, extend a public
2 hearing process so that those who will be most
3 impacted would be most familiar with the
4 suggested change.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But we're
6 telling them they must hold a hearing. We're
7 mandating that they hold a hearing. We're
8 mandating that they hold -- they require notice,
9 and we're mandating where they put that notice.
10 I guess my question, again through you, Mr.
11 President, if the sponsor would continue to
12 yield is -
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield?
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I know that
16 this Legislature -
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Dollinger -- excuse me. Senator Nozzolio, do
19 you continue to yield?
20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
21 President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Senator continues to yield, Senator Dollinger.
2596
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I know that
2 the Majority in this body has consistently
3 passed all three -- I believe all three years
4 that I have been here, that we would not pass
5 unfunded mandates on to local government, and I
6 think I've supported that. I think it's been
7 supported by the Majority. I think it's been
8 supported by members of the Democratic side, but
9 yet it appears as though we're passing a mandate
10 here that doesn't have any funds attached to
11 it. Local communities will have to pay for this
12 notice. They'll have to pay to hold the
13 hearing. They'll have to pay for the
14 administrative time, the help that's going to be
15 needed at this, and my question is, is this a
16 good mandate that should be unfunded or should
17 we put some funds attached to this? Through
18 you, Mr. President.
19 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
20 I'm not sure whether or not the Senator was a
21 member of this body last year and voted for this
22 measure, but the likelihood is that he was. I
23 would suggest that notice, when there is a law
2597
1 change, is a requirement that is in this case,
2 one, based on public safety, and that through
3 personal experience in communities that have
4 changed the Navigation Law, the expense of
5 properly administering that change has been a
6 costly experience that we believe could actually
7 be reducing in -- reduced in cost if proper
8 notice was provided.
9 So, my colleague, I would dare
10 suggest this measure, if implemented, would
11 actually save local governments cost because it
12 would provide adequate notice to those most
13 affected by the law that I should hasten to add
14 is to be changed not by a mandate from this
15 body, but by the local government's own
16 request.
17 It's the local government that's
18 asking the opportunity to change the speed
19 limit. It's the local government that may be
20 asking to change the Moorings Law, the other
21 laws that may impact on the nagivation of
22 vessels. It's the local governments that are
23 asking for this authority. It's the local
2598
1 governments that are making the decision that
2 the laws need to be changed. We're suggesting
3 to the local government, if you make that step,
4 if you take that step and wanted to change the
5 law, that at the very least you need to get
6 input from the public before changing the law.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through
8 you, Mr. President, if Senator Nozzolio would
9 yield to just one more question.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Nozzolio, would you yield to just one more
12 question? The Senator yields to one more
13 question.
14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: If the Senator
15 promises this is the last question, I would be
16 happy to yield.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Absolutely.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He's
19 happy to yield, Senator Dollinger.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there
21 anything in current law which prohibits the
22 local communities from holding this hearing
23 themselves and paying for the cost themselves
2599
1 without this legislation?
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Not to my
3 knowledge.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Mr.
5 President, on the bill.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Dollinger on the bill.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I guess
9 sitting in this chamber for the last three
10 years, two and a half years, I have become more
11 sensitive to the issue of unfunded mandates.
12 I've heard members of the other
13 side of the aisle talk about things we require
14 local governments to do that they could do
15 themselves, things that we require them to pay
16 for that they could decide to pay for
17 themselves, and I've heard lots of discussion in
18 this chamber, I think, from both sides of the
19 aisle in which people have said, "We shouldn't
20 require local governments to do that. They can
21 do that all by themselves", and most
22 importantly, if we're going to require them to
23 do something, we ought to pay for it ourselves.
2600
1 We ought to put funds attached to it so that we
2 don't run into the problem, the one thing we
3 don't want to give our local communities,
4 unfunded mandates, that you have to do something
5 but yet we don't have to pay for it. We're
6 going to tell you to do it but you pay for it.
7 I've heard the litany in this
8 chamber of all of those instances in which we
9 tell local communities, "Do it but don't ask us
10 for the money to support it." Maybe it's the
11 enlightenment that comes from sitting in this
12 chamber for the last two and a half years, but
13 it seems to me that this bill fits that exact
14 description.
15 My question to the Majority in
16 this chamber is, do you believe that we should
17 have no unfunded mandates? If you do, you have
18 to vote against this bill, or instead, do you
19 believe there are some good unfunded mandates,
20 and this is one of those good ones, and that
21 there's some bad unfunded mandates that it's
22 okay to vote against? It seems to me that what
23 I'm looking for is maybe a little tiny strand of
2601
1 consistency in this body's approach to the
2 concept of unfunded mandates.
3 If you vote for this, you're
4 voting for an unfunded mandate. You might as
5 well recognize it. I guess I've learned enough
6 in this chamber that I'm going to vote against
7 this unfunded mandate, and if local communities,
8 when they're changing the Nagivation Law -- I
9 agree with Senator Nozzolio, there ought to be
10 widespread publication of that. That's a
11 decision that can be made entirely by local
12 communities. Let them make it. Don't tell them
13 "You've got to make it. You've got to hold a
14 public hearing. You've got to spend your time
15 and effort. You've got to spend overtime.
16 You've got to spend publication cost, but we're
17 not going to pay for it." That's the prima
18 facie definition of an unfunded mandate. I'm
19 not going to vote for this one.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
21 recognizes Senator Paterson.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
23 would the sponsor yield for one more question?
2602
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Paterson, can I interrupt you for just a
3 moment?
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Sure.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 DeFrancisco, is there something you would like
7 to announce?
8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Mr.
9 President, on behalf of the Majority Leader, I
10 would like to call a Rules Committee meeting, an
11 immediate Rules Committee meeting in Room 332 of
12 this building.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
14 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
15 Committee in Room 332 immediately.
16 Thank you, Senator Paterson.
17 Senator Paterson, you have the floor.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
19 much, Mr. President.
20 I was inquiring as to whether the
21 sponsor would yield for another question.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Nozzolio, do you yield to Senator Paterson?
2603
1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator yields.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, if we
5 take into account what Senator Dollinger is
6 saying, and we now want to explain to Senator
7 Dollinger why in a sense there is a supervening
8 cause that makes us create the demand that we
9 are in this legislation of local governments, my
10 question to you is who is really benefiting from
11 the adoption of this law?
12 The New York State Conference of
13 Mayors and Municipal Officials is opposed to
14 it. I think they think that this is burdensome
15 for local government. They say it's
16 unwarranted, it's unnecessary. In other words,
17 I don't understand who this legislation serves.
18 Maybe you can explain that to me.
19 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: This
20 legislation, my colleagues, is designed to save
21 local governments money, to make their jobs more
22 cost-effective. Unlike Senator Dollinger's
23 characterization, this is not a requirement on
2604
1 every local government. This is simply a
2 suggestion, a requirement, to those local
3 governments that are changing the Navigation
4 Law, that come to this body and ask this body
5 for the authorization oftentimes to change a
6 speed limit on a lake; to change a speed limit
7 on a bay; to change the Mooring Laws. The local
8 government is initiating this process. We're
9 saying to the local government, "If you want to
10 initiate this process, then you must ensure that
11 public input is first established." That is a
12 threshold predicate for the opportunity to
13 change the law.
14 The local government doesn't have
15 to engage in changing the law unless it wants
16 to. This is purely a voluntary situation. It's
17 purely a voluntary action by the local
18 government. To suggest otherwise is a coating
19 of this issue with a taint that, I believe, is
20 motivated more on other grounds than on the four
21 squared grounds of this legislation.
22 This legislation simply says
23 that, if the local government takes the
2605
1 initiative to change the law, we want to
2 establish some assurances that the public has
3 been given proper opportunity to present input.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Paterson, you still have the floor.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
7 President. Thank you, Senator Nozzolio, for the
8 answer.
9 I'm not disagreeing with you,
10 Senator. What I am suggesting is that, you're
11 right, it does not make a requirement of local
12 governments, but what happens is that when local
13 governments make an attempt to regulate vessels
14 in a certain way, then there is the attachment
15 that these, I think, rather strict demands, as I
16 pointed out earlier, stricter than, in some
17 cases, the dissolution of a village, in some
18 cases some very important things, and this
19 pertains to the rules about vessels, and what I
20 just am not understanding is why is it that if
21 we're going to be this strict -- what was it
22 that caused us to want to be this way? Not the
23 local governments. They seem to be opposed to.
2606
1 Is it public safety? In other words, I'm just
2 trying to find an answer as to why we have to do
3 something that, in some cases we have quintupled
4 the time of notific... the written notification
5 is 60 days under your bill.
6 So I'm just trying to ask, what
7 was it that caused us to, in effect, for want of
8 a better expression, to come down this hard on
9 the local governments?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Paterson, are you asking Senator Nozzolio to
12 yield to the question?
13 SENATOR PATERSON: That's a
14 question for the Senator.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Nozzolio.
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
18 I yielded to Senator Paterson's last question
19 four questions ago. I'll stand by my previous
20 answer.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Paterson, you have the floor.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Then it was -
2607
1 if Senator Nozzolio would yield to a new
2 question. Would you like me to find a new
3 question, Senator?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Nozzolio, do you yield to a question from
6 Senator Paterson?
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I
8 will continue to yield.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 Senator yields.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
12 What constitutes a vessel? In
13 other words, how large is the ship before it's a
14 vessel?
15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I believe
16 that's defined in the Navigation Law, Senator.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: I know that.
18 I just assumed that you read the Navigation Law
19 before you wrote the bill. I just wanted to
20 know.
21 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I don't have
22 that information in front of me, Senator.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: All right.
2608
1 Well, then -
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: It's a
3 definition that's in the Navigation Law that
4 governments have the authority to regulate the
5 operation of vessels, that's boats, could be
6 rowboats, could be powerboats, it could be ocean
7 liners. It runs the gamut, Senator.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: So it's not
9 the size of the ship; it's the motion of the
10 ocean, I guess.
11 Senator, the reason I was asking
12 the question was I wanted to know how many
13 individuals; what size of -- of the public is
14 actually affected by this legislation?
15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Anyone,
16 Senator, that uses the navigable waterway that
17 happens to be subject to changes by those local
18 governments who wish to change the law
19 regulating vessel nagivation within their
20 jurisdiction.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
22 much, Senator.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2609
1 Secretary will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect on the 100th day.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Paterson to explain his vote.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Actually, Mr.
10 President, I would like to ask for a slow roll
11 call on this issue.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are there
13 five Senators in the chamber who are desirous to
14 have a slow roll call?
15 Seeing five, the Secretary will
16 call the roll slowly.
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
19 recognizes Senator Nozzolio.
20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Star the bill.
21 ACTING PRESDIENT KUHL: The roll
22 call is withdrawn. The star is placed at the
23 request of the sponsor on the bill.
2610
1 The Secretary will continue to
2 call the controversial calendar.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 210, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 624, an
5 act to amend the County Law, in relation to
6 authorizing the county of Franklin to appoint up
7 to three public defenders.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Stafford, an explanation of Calendar Number 210
10 has been asked for by Senator Paterson.
11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr.
12 President.
13 I will attempt to explain what
14 appears to be a complicated situation in a rural
15 county which isn't complicated.
16 The problem now is they have one
17 public defender, one office, a number of
18 attorneys, and they have cases where they need
19 to have public defender-type people on both
20 sides. Due to the fact they're in that office,
21 they can't represent both sides in that office
22 even though there are two different attorneys
23 and, therefore, they have to go out and get an
2611
1 assigned attorney. It costs a lot more money,
2 and it's a real problem.
3 What this will do -- and it's a
4 pilot project, and I'm quite proud that some of
5 us thought this up together. Franklin County is
6 a very, as I say, rural, and it is a long, so to
7 speak, county, narrow. We can have three
8 separate public defender offices. Therefore, if
9 they do have cases where they have to have a
10 public defender on each side, they will be able
11 to use a public defender from another office to
12 come in. It's just like another law firm, just
13 like another law firm. It will save a great
14 deal of money, and I think it's good common
15 sense.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Abate.
18 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Would
19 Senator Stafford yield to a question?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Abate -- Senator Stafford, do you yield to
22 Senator Abate?
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
2612
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Senator yields.
3 SENATOR ABATE: I agree with your
4 conclusion that it is admirable that what's
5 being considered through this bill is an
6 expansion of the public defender's office from
7 one office to three to allow them to handle
8 conflict cases when there are co-defendants, or
9 when one attorney may represent the victim and
10 cannot represent the defendant. There are a
11 number of conflicts, and I certainly understand
12 the need to have separate public defender's
13 offices.
14 My question is, however, under
15 County Law, though, it prohibits the sharing of
16 resources from one office to another. How do
17 you suggest that the two newly formed offices
18 will be able to operate without a new
19 appropriation since they cannot share resources;
20 they cannot share the one investigator; they
21 cannot share the library; they can't share
22 administrative staff?
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Good
2613
1 question. I might add -- this is just my own
2 personal opinion -- I think that's some common
3 sense that we should put into the County Law, so
4 maybe we can work together so we don't even have
5 the issue, but this is different because of the
6 separate appropriations; it is two different
7 offices. Each office is taking their
8 responsibility, his or her responsibility just
9 as each department does in their county. I
10 answered that question in the beginning.
11 SENATOR ABATE: Is there a way
12 that you would consider amending it and not
13 amending it through the County Law but through
14 an executive budget bill so that we can allow
15 for the appropriation of these two newly formed
16 offices?
17 SENATOR STAFFORD: I certainly
18 will consider -- I think it's a very interesting
19 suggestion. Due to the fact this is a pilot
20 project, I really would like to try to do this
21 and get it -- get it into law. I think probably
22 law might be better than the budget.
23 SENATOR ABATE: M-m h-m-m. But I
2614
1 -- would the Senator yield to another question?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Abate -- Senator Stafford, do you yield to
4 another question? The Senator yields.
5 SENATOR ABATE: My concern is
6 that any time a county would have a problem such
7 as this, would we want to intervene in 62
8 counties to resolve this problem; and wouldn't
9 we be better off doing it through Executive
10 Law?
11 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, of
12 course, I would say that I'm sure if you had
13 this problem in your area, you would be
14 intervening just like I'm intervening. I think
15 overall we should probably revise the law. I
16 would go toward the County Law.
17 SENATOR ABATE: I have one last
18 question if the Senator would yield.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Stafford, do you yield to one last question from
21 Senator Abate?
22 (Senator Staffords nods head.)
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2615
1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR ABATE: I'm told the
3 Office of Court Administration objects to this,
4 opposes this bill. Do you know why?
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: I guess right
6 now they are not evidencing opposition. They
7 opposed it last year. I say this with all of
8 the good humor and good will that I can muster,
9 because like you, I have some very good friends
10 involved in the Office of Court Administration,
11 but we find ourselves, quite often, not agreeing
12 completely when you get the rural courts.
13 SENATOR ABATE: On the bill.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Abate on the bill.
16 SENATOR ABATE: Although I will
17 probably support this bill, I hope that Senator
18 Stafford will look to amend this bill in the
19 future, because my concern is, although the
20 intentions are good and there is a need because
21 of ethical rules to establish three separate
22 public defender offices, without appropriation,
23 now the county I'm told has three part-time
2616
1 attorneys and one investigator and
2 administrative staff for only one office. So,
3 in essence, we're encumbering the delivery of
4 defense services through this bill in the short
5 term if it's not followed by an appropriate
6 appropriation bill.
7 So, Senator Stafford, I would be
8 willing to work with you and your staff to see
9 that we have adequate follow-up to this piece of
10 legislation.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
12 recognizes Senator Paterson.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
14 would Senator Stafford yield for a question?
15 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Stafford, will you yield? The Senator yields.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
19 Stafford, in the Governor's veto message from
20 last year, the previous governor, they pointed
21 out that the Public Defenders Association had
22 some implementary problems with this particular
23 bill, some related to the 18-b panel that it
2617
1 sort of compromises the value of 18-b. I wanted
2 to know, since that time last year, have you
3 talked to the Public Defenders Association? Do
4 you have an idea what it is that disturbs them
5 so much about this legislation?
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Of course, any
7 good organization -- we're interested in a
8 statewide program and statewide funding. I've
9 worked with the defenders. It's an excellent
10 organization. This is a pilot program. The -
11 as far as the veto message goes, again, we
12 thought at the time that -- that the Governor
13 was getting some very poor advice, and I guess
14 that was proven right.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Paterson.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
18 Senator.
19 I'm just a little unclear. The
20 advice that he got was not the best advice
21 because of what?
22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Senator, the
23 way we want to do it and do something sensible
2618
1 to have a program where they have three separate
2 entities, save the county money and not
3 necessarily be interested in just building a
4 statewide organization that I've supported and
5 you have.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: That's right,
7 Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: The -- if
11 Senator Stafford would yield for just another
12 question.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Stafford, do you yield for another question from
15 Senator Paterson? The Senator yields.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Is there
17 equity in the three separate offices that would
18 be set up? In other words, have we researched
19 this enough to know that there -- if Senator
20 Stafford can hear me -
21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: There is, and
2619
1 you being a good lawyer, you're pointing out, if
2 you're going to have three separate law firms,
3 you have to have three separate law firms all
4 with the same power, all being a, as I say,
5 individual entity, and this is what we have
6 here.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Paterson, do you wish to continue to have the
9 floor?
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. Thank
11 you, Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Paterson, excuse the interruption just a
14 minute.
15 Ladies and gentlemen, it's
16 getting kind of noisy in here, and it's a little
17 difficult when you have some soft-spoken people
18 trying to answer questions and ask questions, so
19 if we could just kind of keep it down. I know
20 it's a very busy day. We've got a lot of work
21 ahead of us. Just keep it down so we can show a
22 little respect for the members who have the
23 floor.
2620
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
2 President.
3 A point well taken. I'm glad you
4 advised us of that. If Senator Stafford would
5 continue to yield.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Senator continues to yield.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: I just have
9 this question when it comes to the savings to
10 the county. I didn't really feel that the
11 public defender's office's real nature was to
12 save the county money, Senator Stafford. I
13 thought what we are really doing in these types
14 of situations is to fulfill our constitutional
15 protections to individuals who are in the legal
16 predicament that they're in and to provide legal
17 counsel to the indigent.
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: That's right.
19 I agree with you. When I was chairman of Codes,
20 I worked very closely with the public defenders,
21 and I think that they are -- where they are
22 right now is because of hard work by your
23 father, you, myself, and many others, and I am a
2621
1 supporter of the public defenders, and that's
2 the way it should be in this country.
3 This, I only pointed out, was
4 that the county, rather than having to go out
5 and get a separate assigned counsel, would use
6 someone who is paid a yearly salary and,
7 therefore, you wouldn't have these additional
8 costs. That's all.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Okay. Mr.
10 President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Paterson.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
14 Senator Stafford served in the
15 Senate not only with me but also with my father
16 so he can see the diminished capacity as it
17 passes down through my family.
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: That's not
19 true.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: I just have
21 one other question, subpoena -- no, that's not
22 it, Mr. President.
23 My question to Senator Stafford
2622
1 is that there is a reporting requirement
2 inherent in this piece of legislation, and my
3 final question, Senator, is that we notice in
4 the reporting requirement that it does not
5 include the Minority Leader of this Senate. Do
6 you think that in the future you could amend
7 this bill to provide that?
8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Certainly, I
9 don't -- I remember -- I'm trying to think out
10 loud here, the Minority Leader of the Assembly
11 or Senate is not in it, but I certainly would
12 consider a chapter amendment.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
14 That's very gracious, Senator,
15 and thank you for answering my question.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
17 any other Senator wishing to speak on this
18 bill?
19 Senator Waldon.
20 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
21 much, Mr. President.
22 Would the good Senator Stafford
23 from the great north country suffer -- Warren
2623
1 County, Washington, Essex, Clinton and Franklin
2 and Hamilton -- suffer a question or two?
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Stafford yields.
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Every once in
7 a while my bills gets these good brilliant
8 minds. I consider you one of them.
9 Thank you.
10 SENATOR WALDON: I appreciate
11 your generosity, Senator. I'm glad that you
12 would think of anyone in this chamber equal to
13 such a high calling as to be brilliant.
14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Not everyone.
15 SENATOR WALDON: Not everyone?
16 Well, I appreciate that too.
17 Senator, would you please advise
18 us of the fiscal impact? You may have done that
19 while I was out of the chamber and I apologize
20 for my ignorance. What is the fiscal impact of
21 the creation of these new offices?
22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Senator, to
23 the state, none, and as we explained earlier, as
2624
1 far as the separate budgets from each county
2 attorney's position and then when you added them
3 up for the county, we suggest it will be less.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Okay. I thank
5 you for that.
6 Would the Senator yield to
7 another question?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Stafford, do you yield to another question? The
10 Senator yields.
11 SENATOR WALDON: I again
12 apologize for my ignorance. I tried to quickly
13 read the bill as you were speaking with the
14 learned Senator from the very nice town of
15 Harlem, David Paterson, in regard to the types
16 of people who will be defended by this
17 defender's office. Is it only the criminal
18 element?
19 SENATOR STAFFORD: Excellent
20 question. No. Also, you would have -- some
21 Family Court proceedings would be involved
22 here. Good question.
23 SENATOR WALDON: So this would be
2625
1 a rather universal office in terms of taking
2 care of the needs of all of the people?
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Right.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Okay. Thank you
5 very much, Mr. President. Thank very much,
6 Senator.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
10 act shall take effect -
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll
12 call.
13 THE SECRETARY: -- immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll slowly. Are there five Senators wishing to
16 have a slow roll call?
17 Seeing five, call the roll
18 slowly.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
20 SENATOR ABATE: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Bruno.
2626
1 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
3 (Affirmative indication.)
4 THE SECRETARY: Yes.
5 Senator Cook.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator DeFrancisco.
8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
10 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator
12 Dollinger.
13 (There was no response.)
14 Senator Espada.
15 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
17 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber.
19 (There was no response.)
20 Senator Gold.
21 (There was no response.)
22 Senator Gonzalez.
23 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Yes.
2627
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gonzalez.
2 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Yes.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman.
4 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon.
6 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock.
8 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann.
10 (There was no response.)
11 Senator Holland.
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones.
16 SENATOR JONES: Yes.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Kuhl.
20 SENATOR KUHL: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Larkin.
2628
1 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
3 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
9 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
13 (There was no response.)
14 Senator Marcellino.
15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
17 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator
19 Markowitz.
20 (There was no response.)
21 Senator Maziarz.
22 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
2629
1 (There was no response.)
2 Senator Mendez.
3 (There was no response.)
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Montgomery.
6 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes.
7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
9 SENATOR NANULA: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio.
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
13 SENATOR ONORATO: Aye.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator
15 Oppenheimer.
16 (There was no response.)
17 Senator Padavan.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Paterson.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
22 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
2630
1 SENATOR RATH: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
3 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago.
5 (There was no response.)
6 Senator Sears.
7 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
9 SENATOR SEWARD: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
13 (There was no response.)
14 Senator Solomon.
15 (There was no response.)
16 Senator Spano.
17 (There was no response.)
18 Senator Stachowski.
19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford.
21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky.
23 (There was no response.)
2631
1 Senator Trunzo.
2 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Velella.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Volker.
8 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
10 SENATOR WALDON: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright.
12 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 Secretary will call the absentees.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush,
16 excused.
17 Senator Cook.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Dollinger.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Gold.
2632
1 (There was no response.)
2 Senator Hoffmann.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Kruger.
5 SENATOR KRUGER: Yes.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
7 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
9 (There was no response.)
10 Senator Markowitz.
11 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator
13 Oppenheimer.
14 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago.
16 (There was no response.)
17 Senator Smith.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Solomon.
20 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Stavisky.
2633
1 (There was no response.)
2 Senator Tully.
3 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
5 SENATOR VELELLA: Aye.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
7 the results when tabulated.
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50, nays
9 zero.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: A close
11 vote. The bill is passed.
12 Calendar Number 214, by Senator
13 LaValle -
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
15 recognizes Senator Bruno.
16 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
17 can we return to reports of standing
18 committees? I believe there's a report from the
19 Rules Committee. Can we move its adoption at
20 this time?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll
22 return to reports of standing committees. The
23 Secretary will read.
2634
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
2 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
3 following bills: Senate Print 1552-A, an act
4 making appropriations for the legal requirements
5 of the state debt service and lease purchase
6 payments.
7 Senate Print 1826-B, budget bill,
8 an act to amend the Social Services Law, in
9 relation to eliminating reimbursement to Social
10 Services districts for brokers' fees, finders'
11 fees and rental security deposits.
12 Senate Print 3682, by Senator
13 Bruno, an act to amend the State Administrative
14 Procedure Act, in relation to agency review of
15 existing rules and their effectiveness.
16 Senate Print 3683, by Senator
17 Bruno, an act to amend the Environmental
18 Conservation Law, the State Administrative
19 Procedure act, the Public Health Law and the
20 State Finance Law, in relation to enacting the
21 Environmental Regulatory Reform Act of 1995.
22 All bills ordered directly for
23 third reading.
2635
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
2 recognizes Senator Bruno. Motion to accept the
3 third reading -- the reports of standing
4 committees and Rules report, Senator Bruno?
5 SENATOR BRUNO: Move to accept
6 the report, Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All those
8 in favor signify by saying aye.
9 The Chair recognizes Senator
10 Paterson.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
12 regrettably, I object to the acceptance of this
13 particular report. This report has a lot of
14 reforms in it that it proposes, and since we're
15 speaking of reforms, I think that one of the
16 issues that we wanted to reform, all of us as a
17 government, as a state Senate, is the process by
18 which we make decisions.
19 We are in the week in which we
20 would hopefully pass the budget on April 1st,
21 and with that seasonable period approaching us,
22 there are some very specific items in which I
23 think we have to be scrupulously fair to each
2636
1 other's opportunity to address certain issues.
2 The Rules report that we are
3 about to accept, from what I understand of it,
4 contains four bills that will direct very much
5 the progress of our citizenry within the next
6 fiscal year, 1995-96. However, with these four
7 reports or four bills included in one report, we
8 are going to make a lot of social and economic
9 reforms; reforms of which our conference was
10 unfamiliar until roughly the past few days.
11 There have been no hearings on
12 these bills. There's been no proper use of the
13 committee process on these bills. We do have a
14 process -- there's nothing wrong with the
15 process of reporting the bills to the Finance
16 Committee, the Finance Committee then voting on
17 it and then reporting it to the Rules Committee
18 and then reporting it to the floor, and we can
19 use the broad supervisory power of the Senate to
20 do that in emergency situations, but these are
21 issues that we all know very well and that we
22 will be presumably debating, discussing and
23 dialoguing about in this particular process.
2637
1 I don't understand how we can do
2 that without a proper and a fair period of time
3 to analyze all of these bills, and I wanted to
4 get up at this time and express that sentiment
5 and move to oppose the Rules report, Mr.
6 President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is
8 to -- Senator Leichter.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, Mr.
10 President. I think that Senator Paterson made a
11 very persuasive point. I want to say that I'm
12 particularly distressed as the ranking Minority
13 member of the Environmental Conservation
14 Committee that a bill which is so important to
15 the environment did not get a chance to be
16 considered by that committee.
17 Mr. President, I'm sorry to say
18 that we're establishing a very bad precedent of
19 bypassing committees on important measures.
20 Earlier this session we had the bill reimposing
21 capital punishment that did not go to the Codes
22 Committee. Now, eventually another bill was
23 fashioned which did come before the committee.
2638
1 Now we have two substantive bills
2 dealing with regulations that affect each and
3 every person in the state, and I think that
4 we're going to show you that it affects people
5 in a very deleterious, harmful manner. That
6 ought to be considered.
7 Senator Bruno, if you want to get
8 rid of committees, let's just get rid of
9 committees, but to have committees there sort of
10 as supernumeraries, you know, send them
11 unimportant bills, but if there's something
12 important, you rush it out to the floor; you
13 ignore members who have some expertise in these
14 areas who can contribute to the committees. I
15 think it's un... I think it's unfortunate.
16 There's no reason these bills have to be rushed
17 to the floor for vote at this time. And I would
18 hope very much that on reconsideration, that we
19 would not accept the motion to move these to
20 third reading and that we would follow our
21 procedures.
22 I just want to point out, you can
23 trample on procedures because your ideas -- we
2639
1 can always trample on the Minority, but when you
2 trample on procedures, you not only trample on
3 this Minority, but you trample on the tradition
4 on the integrity of the Senate. You trample on
5 protections that exist for the public. That's
6 why we have committees. That's why we hold
7 discussions. That's why we deliberate. That's
8 why sometimes we have hearings so that there is
9 a process so that what eventually comes out of
10 this chamber is passed by the Assembly, goes to
11 the Governor, is a considered measure. We are
12 foregoing that protection to the public and I
13 think it's regrettable and should not be done.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
15 recognizes Senator Bruno.
16 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
17 was hoping that we might avoid this kind of
18 rhetoric that we're about to engage in for the
19 next maximum of one half hour on this
20 resolution.
21 We all know that we are starting
22 a budget process here. We all know that there
23 are rules and regulations that this Senate
2640
1 abides by, and we all know that the rules and
2 regulations establish a procedure to move
3 legislation to the floor when necessary, when
4 appropriate, exactly through the procedure that
5 is established by the rules and reg's of this
6 house.
7 This is not extraordinary, Mr.
8 President. This is ordinary procedure under the
9 circumstances that we find ourselves in today.
10 We have two messages of necessity from the
11 Governor who thinks what we're doing is
12 important, and he represents not one district,
13 but the entire state of New York.
14 So we can engage in rhetoric. We
15 can engage in a procedure to delay the Senate
16 moving forward in passing a budget. I only
17 wish, Senators, that you might have been able to
18 relate to the Speaker of the Assembly, a
19 colleague of yours, to engage in meaningful
20 discussions that would have allowed us to move
21 these bills with three-way agreement rather than
22 two-way agreement. That would have been
23 preferable.
2641
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
2 SENATOR BRUNO: And we are still
3 waiting -- we are still hoping that the Speaker
4 will engage in meaningful discussion.
5 So I am standing, Mr. President,
6 so that we establish very clearly that we are
7 following the rules and regulations of this
8 house and nothing else, and at the same time, I
9 am very pleased, Senator, that you want to
10 follow the procedures that are the regulations
11 and rules of this house because I totally agree
12 with you, Senator, and I will remind you, Mr.
13 President, that any bill that comes before the
14 floor, the maximum for debate including
15 amendments is two hours, and there will be two
16 minutes to explain your vote. And on a motion
17 such as this one, we have one half hour debate
18 on that side and one half hour debate on this
19 side. And we can stay here and listen to the
20 delays for whatever the appropriate hours are,
21 but I'll ask you, Mr. President, to be diligent
22 in helping us abide by the rules of the Senate.
23 We are not a mob. We're not a
2642
1 mob. We don't make up rules as we go along. We
2 don't make up rules to suit ourselves. We don't
3 make up rules when we think they're appropriate.
4 We follow the rules established by this body
5 that goes back decades, and that's the rule that
6 gets this bill before this house.
7 Mr. President, I only say this to
8 remind my very, very distinguished colleague,
9 Mr. Leichter, that I see the Senator is still on
10 his feet and apparently has something to say.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Before
12 Senator Leichter, Senator Waldon.
13 SENATOR WALDON: I have a
14 question also, Senator Leichter.
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Ask your
16 question.
17 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
18 much. I appreciate your deference.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Bruno, do you yield to a question from Senator
21 Waldon? The Senator yields.
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
23 President.
2643
1 SENATOR WALDON: The
2 distinguished Leader of the Senate from
3 Rensselaer and Saratoga County, I too am aware
4 of rules and procedures, and in reviewing the
5 material -- excuse me -- contained in Budget
6 Bill Number 91, I believe is the designation
7 which deals with income maintenance, I became
8 aware or reflected upon Article 17 of the
9 Constitution. Are you familiar with that
10 article, Senator Bruno?
11 SENATOR BRUNO: I am not
12 intimately aware of it, Senator, but I would
13 appreciate you making me more familiar with it,
14 if you would.
15 SENATOR WALDON: I'll try in my
16 fumbling way, Senator, to do that. I am not
17 overly familiar, but my staff did remind me that
18 it says that there's an obligation of the state
19 to take care of the indigent. That's the basic
20 tenet of that portion of Article 17 that I would
21 appreciate your addressing, because in the bill
22 which is part of the package that you've asked
23 us to accept, we are going to do -- if passed as
2644
1 it is written, do some extraordinary things
2 which, in my opinion, would violate the
3 Constitution of our state, and if we're going to
4 conform to procedures, then I would beg that we
5 also conform to the Constitution of the state of
6 New York.
7 Would we, by now changing the
8 manner which we take care of the indigent in
9 this state, not be in violation of the
10 Constitution of the state of New York? Mr.
11 President, if I may through you, ask that
12 question of the learned Senator.
13 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, thank
14 you.
15 My very learned colleague,
16 Senator Holland, was whispering in this ear
17 while I was listening to you with this ear, and
18 he says that that same article indicates that it
19 is up to the Legislature to change the rules as
20 they deem appropriate, and that's what this bill
21 on the floor will do if you, Senator, in your
22 wisdom, allow us to proceed to discuss the
23 merits of the bill rather than a procedural
2645
1 question on getting the bill to the floor.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Well, Mr.
3 President, if I may. I assure you, Senator,
4 that this is -
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Waldon, are you asking Senator Bruno to yield?
7 SENATOR WALDON: Yes. Would he
8 continue to yield?
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Bruno, do you continue to yield?
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
12 President.
13 SENATOR WALDON: I assure you,
14 Senator Bruno, this is not a cavalier act on my
15 part. It's a genuine interest. I am very
16 sensitive to the Constitution of this state.
17 I'm also sensitive to our needs as a Legislature
18 to take care of the needs of those who are at
19 least able to take care of themselves.
20 So I would ask, could you as a
21 leader of our body, have an official decision
22 rendered in regard to what the true intent of
23 the Constitution is regarding Article 17,
2646
1 because I have such a great variance in my
2 understanding with the learned Senator, Senator
3 Holland from Rockland and Orange Counties, so
4 that I would be totally edified as well as all
5 of our 59 colleagues, your 59 colleagues and my
6 59 -- 59 colleagues which make you and I 61. Is
7 that possible?
8 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, it is
9 not practical. I would like to accommodate
10 you. If it was within my power, I would, but I
11 really think that that is a matter that could
12 only be decided in the courts because we feel
13 that we are proceeding within the range that the
14 Constitution affords us.
15 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President,
16 in closing. I thank very much the learned
17 Senator -
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Waldon, are you asking Senator Bruno -
20 SENATOR WALDON: I'm going to sit
21 down.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'm going
23 to suggest, Senator Waldon, that you then sit
2647
1 down because Senator Bruno had the floor and
2 Senator Dollinger was next on the list. So if
3 you would like to speak, I would be happy to do
4 that, but we're trying to follow the rules of
5 procedure here.
6 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
7 much, Mr. President.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Paterson, why do you rise?
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
12 I thought that Senator Leichter was next in
13 line. I'm not sure.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you
15 asking Senator Bruno to yield, Senator Leichter?
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: I sought to,
17 Mr. President. I then yield to -- my
18 distinguished colleague from Queens had a
19 pressing question that I -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Would you
21 like to -
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- instead of
23 side bar, I would just like to ask Senator Bruno
2648
1 a question.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Bruno, do you yield to Senator Leichter?
4 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
5 President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Senator yields.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, let
9 me first say, I'm delighted to be part of "Camp
10 Bruno" but, Senator, you made a point about the
11 budget and we need to pass the budget, and so
12 on, and I want to make it very clear that no -
13 nothing that I said or Senator Paterson said at
14 all questioned two of the bills which happened
15 to be budget bills, whether we liked the bills
16 or not. We're going to comment on that, but we
17 did not object to moving those to third reading,
18 but there were two bills here, Senator, that are
19 being sponsored by you, 3682 and 3683. Those
20 are not Article 7 bills. Those are not budget
21 bills; isn't that a fact, Senator Bruno?
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, I, with
23 great pleasure, inform you that those two bills
2649
1 were introduced last Thursday, and they are aged
2 and they are appropriately before this house
3 without cutting any corners at all, and I'm
4 surprised that you haven't been staying up
5 nights studying those bills so that you would
6 have known they were introduced last Thursday.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
8 don't think you understood my question.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Leichter, are you asking Senator Bruno to
11 continue to yield?
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Bruno, do you continue to yield?
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: If my good
16 friend, Senator Bruno, would yield.
17 Senator, I don't question the
18 fact that these bills are aged. That wasn't the
19 point I made at all. The point that we made,
20 Senator, is that we have committees, and from
21 your very answer, it does seem to me as you
22 forget in times that there are committees.
23 The point that I made, sir, was
2650
1 that these bills ought to go to committees, and
2 since they affect particularly the environment
3 where I am the ranking member -- we have a
4 wonderful chairman in Senator Tully, what -- the
5 point that I made and Senator Paterson I thought
6 made it very well beforehand is that we have
7 procedures. The procedures we're talking about
8 is the committees system and these bills ought
9 to go through committees, and they need not be
10 passed by April 1. They're not part of the
11 budget, and that's the point we're making,
12 Senator Bruno.
13 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you very
14 much, Senator Leichter, for the point that
15 you've just made. I appreciate your making that
16 point.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Paterson, why do you rise?
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
20 on this motion -- I'm sorry. Senator Dollinger
21 is before me?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Dollinger -- I have a list going, Senator
2651
1 Paterson. Senator Dollinger would be the next
2 scheduled -
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Then I gladly
4 yield.
5 Thank you, Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
7 recognizes Senator Dollinger on the motion.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
9 Mr. President.
10 To the Temporary President of the
11 Senate, I agree as a lawyer that we are
12 operating within the rules. I understand that
13 there are rules that allow the Senate to
14 consider this. I think at least from my
15 perspective in objecting to the Rules Committee
16 report is not because the rules aren't
17 necessarily being followed in their black letter
18 form, but the spirit which guides bringing the
19 two bills, the Administrative Procedure Act and
20 the EnCon bills to the floor today, and I agree
21 with you that these are very important bills.
22 I would simply say to the man on
23 the second floor, these were obviously very
2652
1 important bills in January when we sat here and
2 did license plate bills, and they were very
3 important bills in February when we sat here and
4 did all kinds of resolutions and minor changes
5 and technical changes and extenders. They were
6 very important in February. They were very
7 important for the first 27 days of March, and we
8 sat here and we did four bills of calendar and
9 we took $89 from the people of the state of New
10 York to come in and do the peoples' business,
11 and we passed, I think, every one-house bill
12 that we have passed in the time that I've been
13 here.
14 Yet these important matters were
15 sitting down on the second floor, important
16 changes in the Administrative Procedure Act,
17 equally important changes, if not devastating
18 changes in the Environmental Conservation Law.
19 These were at the top of the Governor's agenda,
20 and we did nothing.
21 We did nothing until today when
22 the Governor, I think, because perhaps some
23 people outside walking around this building have
2653
1 carried a message that he doesn't like, have
2 brought it right to this Capitol that says,
3 "Gee, Governor, you're a question of the polls,
4 Governor. You might be looking at the polls."
5 Maybe the second floor might be looking at the
6 polls, and that might explain why today the
7 second floor decides, in conjunction with the
8 Senate Majority, to bring two very significant
9 bills to the floor, get them before us Thursday
10 night just under the wire, just to get the three
11 days worth of aging, allow them to go over the
12 weekend which seems to be a continuing pattern
13 in this house. I know we ran into that with
14 respect to the death penalty. The same exact
15 process was followed, all within the rules, but
16 we didn't have a chance for the Environmental
17 Conservation Committee to sit down and wrestle
18 with these, what I think will be historic
19 changes in that bill. We didn't allow the
20 Senate Finance Committee or subcommittees of the
21 Senate Finance Committee to consider the
22 extensive changes in the Administrative
23 Procedure Act.
2654
1 I think what -- the purpose of
2 doing this today may be for a post-vote press
3 conference and not for the substance of these
4 bills. But I guess I'm disappointed. I was
5 talking to Senator Leibell who reminded me of
6 his military service and brought back an old
7 military term that seems to have meaning to me
8 today.
9 Remember the old military term
10 about "hurry up and wait"? Well, it seems here
11 in the Senate we have just the opposite
12 approach. We wait, we wait, we wait, and then
13 all of a sudden we have to hurry up. Well, I
14 guess we're in the hurry-up phase part to what
15 may be historic changes to the Administrative
16 Procedure Act and the Environmental Conservation
17 Act.
18 I have only one solace as I sit
19 here objecting to this report, and that is
20 because I know, at least I understand from the
21 leadership on this side, that these bills aren't
22 agreed to. That this is simply a one-house
23 bill, and when I go back home tonight, I can
2655
1 say, "Gee, I did a lot of one-house bills in
2 January. I did a lot of one-house bills in
3 February. I did a lot of one-house bills in
4 March", and sure enough, I came to March 28th,
5 three days before the budget deadline, I'm now
6 about to do three or four more one-house bills.
7 It seems to me that's what this is all about.
8 I'm disappointed, although as I
9 acknowledged to the Temporary President, we're
10 within the rules. It seems to me we would be
11 better off to operate in the spirit of governing
12 and if we did that, I wouldn't be standing here
13 complaining about even though we're within the
14 rules, it doesn't seem to me we're in the spirit
15 of trying to achieve a compromise that will make
16 changes in this state's law, and we can have a
17 legitimate debate about whether those changes
18 are beneficial or not. We're going to be denied
19 that opportunity today because we're going to do
20 it in a one-house fashion, and it's too bad that
21 we seem to wait and then all of a sudden hurry
22 up.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
2656
1 recognizes Senator Connor.
2 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
3 President.
4 Mr. President, I think it's clear
5 that what the Majority is doing here is within
6 the rules and the rules do permit it. The fact
7 that the rules permit it, though, doesn't mean
8 it's the right thing to do or the wise thing to
9 do. For example, the rules of the Senate I
10 think quite wisely provide for a shortcut in
11 urgent situations where bills can come directly
12 from the Rules Committee to third reading, bills
13 that have to be enacted.
14 Traditionally, that's the way it
15 was unwisely used in all-night sessions at the
16 end of the session just to pump out
17 legislation. We didn't like it, but we all
18 wanted to go home, and we knew it was the end of
19 session, so it was the only way to get the bill
20 out here.
21 In this case, just because the
22 rules permit it, it doesn't mean it's the best
23 way to go. We have important bills here dealing
2657
1 with administrative regulations and with the
2 Environmental Conservation Law, and I feel badly
3 for the very fine chairs we have of committees
4 who deal with those areas. We have a committee
5 system here. We have committee staff. Indeed,
6 we take extra compensation for being committee
7 chairs, the Ranking Minority members on
8 committees; and, in fact, we find that this kind
9 of procedure makes it appear like perhaps we're
10 not earning our keep because we have a
11 committee, for example, that deals with
12 Environmental Conservation matters and one of
13 the most important and sweeping changes in that
14 law doesn't even come before the committee,
15 doesn't even get considered by the committee
16 much less, frankly, with legislation this
17 sweeping. I'm sure it would be quite
18 appropriate -- I believe it would be appropriate
19 for such a committee to hold a public hearing.
20 Let the public come in. Let interested groups
21 come in and say, "Now that you have an omnibus
22 kind of bill, lots of old ideas, a few new
23 ideas, here's what we think of the package."
2658
1 What's wrong with that? What's
2 the hurry? Surely, we're not ending the session
3 this week. Surely, there is no rush. So while
4 the rules permit it, it's just not wise to do
5 under these circumstances. Why short circuit
6 the committees when there is time to do
7 otherwise? Why do it in a hurry-up fashion when
8 there's time to do it the right way, the best
9 way?
10 And I know the rules say a lot of
11 things. The one thing I would point out is the
12 rules do not say debate is limited to two
13 hours. They don't say that. In the history of
14 the Senate, they never said that. They have
15 never said debate on a matter is limited to two
16 hours. What the rules say is no motion to cut
17 off debate can be made or entertained until two
18 hours have elapsed. The rules don't try and
19 limit debate. They guarantee to the members at
20 least two hours. If any member or group of
21 members wish to use the two hours, the rules
22 guarantee a two-hour debate, but there is no
23 requirement that anyone move to cut off debate
2659
1 at that time, and we've had a long tradition in
2 this house on very, very important legislation
3 of allowing debates to run longer as long as
4 they haven't become repetitious, as long as we
5 don't have the same members standing up
6 repeatedly, and as long as we're hearing from
7 all of our members about something important.
8 So I do want to set the record
9 straight, Mr. President, on that. There is no
10 limit of two hours in the rules. There is a
11 guarantee of at least two hours debate in our
12 rules.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 motion is to accept the Rules report. All those
15 in favor, signify by saying aye.
16 (Response of "Aye.")
17 Those opposed, nay.
18 (Response of "Nay.")
19 The motion is adopted. The bills
20 are ordered directly to third reading.
21 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno.
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. I
23 would now like to call up Calendar Number 288.
2660
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
2 will read.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 288, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1826B, an act to
5 amend the Social Services Law, in relation to
6 eliminating reimbursement to social services
7 districts for brokers fees.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Bruno.
10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President.
11 Is there a message of necessity from the
12 Governor at the desk?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Bruno, there is.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. I
16 now move that we accept the message of
17 necessity.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
19 motion is to accept the message of necessity.
20 All those in favor, signify by saying aye.
21 (Response of "Aye.")
22 Opposed, nay.
23 (Response of "Nay.")
2661
1 The message is accepted.
2 Senator Paterson, did I
3 understand you wanted an explanation of the
4 bill?
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I did.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Stafford. The chair recognizes Senator Stafford
8 to explain the bill.
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Senator
10 Holland, who -
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Stafford, excuse me just one moment. I'm trying
13 to get Senator Bruno's attention behind you.
14 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President and
15 Senator Stafford, forgive me for the
16 interruption, but I am notified that we should
17 call a joint meeting of Crime and Corrections
18 and Children and Family Committees in Room 332
19 immediately.
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: There will be
21 an immediate meeting, a joint meeting of the
22 Crime and Corrections Committee and the Children
23 and Families Committee in the Majority
2662
1 Conference Room, Room 332.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank
3 you, Senator Stafford, for that interruption.
4 Senator Stafford for an
5 explanation.
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr.
7 President. Senator Bruno a few moments ago
8 referred to Senator Holland as a learned
9 colleague. He is, and he will be giving us an
10 explanation and will discuss the bill that we
11 are about to take up.
12 Mr. President. I would ask if I
13 could please just emphasize and summarize what
14 we are attempting to do as we begin our budget
15 process our Majority Leader, Senator Bruno,
16 referred to today.
17 We are going to be taking steps
18 to make sure -- to make sure that we have a
19 state that is viable, that is alive. We have an
20 economic engine in this state, and that is our
21 economy; and if we continue to take away from
22 the economic engine so that it no longer
23 produces, we are not going to have the funds to
2663
1 carry out some of the very, very needed services
2 and functions that our budget will support.
3 And, Mr. President, we all know,
4 but I think we have to be -- we have to
5 emphazise today, we have a $5 billion deficit.
6 We have to work with that and, Mr. President,
7 each year for the past years we've had a deficit
8 of $5 billion. We will learn from Senator
9 Holland and others during these days, exactly
10 where that deficit has come from and how we
11 intend to deal with it.
12 We have had three-way
13 negotiations, Senator Bruno, the Governor, and
14 the Speaker, and I assure you -- I assure you
15 that we have a situation where, in those
16 negotiations, we're going to have to understand,
17 and the Governor does and Senator Bruno does,
18 that we can't have business as usual, and I
19 assure you, we will not.
20 In the next few days, many of us
21 will say to ourselves, "Things aren't as easy as
22 they were. We don't have really the funds that
23 we did have," and that is exactly right and that
2664
1 is what we're going to have to correct, but we
2 have a budget here that we're going to pass,
3 that we agreed with the Governor on, and we're
4 doing our work. This is very serious.
5 For too many years we've had
6 irresponsibility, and this agreed-upon position
7 takes us away from that irresponsibility and
8 makes us realize that we're going to have to be
9 with other states compatible and we're going to
10 have to have business in our state rather than
11 having it leave. We will then be able to
12 provide the services that are so needed in our
13 state.
14 And with that, Mr. President, for
15 the bill that we will consider, I refer to
16 Senator Joseph Holland.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
18 recognizes Senator Holland to continue the
19 explanation.
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Thank you, Mr.
21 President.
22 First thing I would like to make
23 clear is this is just a welfare reform bill. It
2665
1 does not include Medicaid.
2 Without cost-containment, state
3 spending for welfare in 1995-96 is projected to
4 be close to $2.5 billion. This welfare reform
5 proposal would reduce state welfare spending
6 based on projected costs by approximately 16
7 percent to $2.1 billion. The savings for the
8 state is projected to be approximately $359
9 million and the savings to local property
10 taxpayers about $280 million.
11 Public criticism of welfare is
12 widespread. This bill will remedy many of the
13 most significant problems in the public
14 assistance system, such as welfare dependency
15 and the incentive not to work rather than to
16 work.
17 Welfare rolls have increased by
18 about 30 percent since 1980 and currently nearly
19 one in ten New Yorkers receive public
20 assistance. Clearly, something is wrong. Today
21 we have before us a bill that will eliminate
22 dependency and promote self-sufficiency. We
23 would do this through the following measures:
2666
1 Workfare. Workfare will save
2 millions and encourage personal responsibility.
3 Westchester has saved -- Westchester County has
4 saved $30 million and cut their rolls by 30
5 percent since they went into Workfare.
6 Time limits. 60 days per year
7 for employable home relief recipients without
8 children. Only 19 other states provide any type
9 of general assistance to able-bodied
10 individuals. Nine states do not provide any
11 type of general assistance, whether it be
12 handicapped or aging, et cetera.
13 One of the states that supports
14 -- to provide support to the able-bodied -
15 other states that support -- provide support to
16 the able-bodied, the great majority place a time
17 limit on how long these individuals can receive
18 assistance. By limiting the duration of the
19 assistance to 60 days, 85,000 recipients would
20 leave the rolls as of 1 June 1995, saving
21 approximately $163 million.
22 Finger imaging and other fraud
23 and abuse proposals. Through statewide finger
2667
1 imaging for applicants for all types of welfare
2 benefits and stricter fraud and abuse sanctions
3 and penalties, New York State will be able to
4 target our scarce resources to those who are
5 truly in need. Even after the cuts in home
6 relief and AFDC are taken into account, New York
7 will remain one of the most generous states in
8 the nation in taking care of our needy.
9 New York -- New York has by far
10 the largest general assistance case load of any
11 state in this nation. Even with grant
12 reductions, New York will still offer the fourth
13 most generous benefits for able-bodied single
14 home relief recipients and will remain in the
15 top ten for the largest AFDC grants.
16 New York has a history and a
17 Constitution that requires us to provide support
18 for those in need. We can, however, no longer
19 afford to be as generous as we have in the past
20 without expecting anything in return.
21 This bill ensures that New York
22 State will continue to provide the necessary
23 support for those who are in need. It
2668
1 transforms the welfare system into a means of
2 temporary support for those who have the ability
3 to become self-sufficient. It promotes those on
4 welfare to act as responsible and productive
5 members of society, and it does not shirk the
6 state's responsibility to care for those who
7 cannot care for themselves.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
11 I have an amendment to this bill that's at the
12 desk. I would waive its reading and be willing
13 to explain it.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
15 objection, the reading of the amendment is
16 waived.
17 The Chair recognizes Senator
18 Paterson to explain the amendment.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
20 in this amendment, one of the measures in a
21 sense freezes the state participation in the
22 cost of living assessment that the federal
23 government gives to the in-community living
2669
1 elderly, disabled and the blind. The freeze
2 will constitute approximately $13.
3 So, in other words, what we are
4 saying to those elderly and -- who live in the
5 community is that we are going to freeze the
6 amount of money that the state participates in
7 the supplemental cost of living assessment and
8 deny them that $13.
9 Now, at the end of the last
10 session, we passed three pieces of legislation,
11 in fact, that pertain to adult care facilities,
12 and these adult care facilities will get through
13 the operator the actual finances such that those
14 seniors and those who are in need will, if they
15 are in a facility, receive the supplemental
16 value. However, for those who are living at
17 home, for those who may have the additional
18 encumbrance of being at home, the fact that
19 they're home does not always mean that they are
20 that much independent; it just means that they
21 meet a threshold by which they can stay at
22 home. They will not get an extra $13 a month.
23 I think that this measure is
2670
1 especially punitive. It's especially unfair,
2 rising to a level that we can almost describe it
3 as being unjust. There is certainly a lot of
4 reform that we have to investigate in our social
5 service system, but this is certainly not one of
6 them. I don't think there really is anybody in
7 this chamber that would like to deny to the
8 frail, elderly, the massively disabled, those
9 who are visually impaired and totally blind, the
10 meager amounts that the state matches the
11 federal government, $13 a month. $13 a month.
12 It's about $2.30 a day, and I don't understand
13 why we would want to take that money out of the
14 pockets of our seniors, people whose tax dollars
15 provide the broad revenue base that the state
16 has derived for years, and it just doesn't make
17 any sense.
18 And so I'm offering this
19 amendment in the hope that my colleagues will
20 recognize that this is just one piece that's in
21 the legislation that shouldn't be there. It's
22 egregious, and it is something that we should
23 address. We can address it right here on this
2671
1 floor right now. There is a lot of good that
2 this bill may do. We can debate the rest of it,
3 but this particular section denying people who
4 are massively impaired at times, even though
5 they're living at home, they can't come up here
6 to lobby today to let you know how they feel.
7 Hopefully, you will listen to my
8 words and understand that they can't afford to
9 lose that $13 a day. It will create a
10 detrimental effect on them. It will inure to a
11 very negative situation if they are asked to
12 endure this freeze which will manufacture a
13 cutback of $13 per month. I guess I have been
14 saying a day. I really mean $13 a month.
15 And so I submit this amendment in
16 the hope that my colleagues will consider it and
17 perhaps will, after discussion and dialogue
18 which we still have in this chamber, will
19 consider that we should not -- we should not
20 unfund this cost of living assessment which is
21 about three percent that the federal government
22 provides, that the state has always matched,
23 that will not add up to a lot of money. Your
2672
1 relatives, our friends need it very badly.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 question is on the amendment. All those in
4 favor of the amendment.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Party vote in
6 the affirmative.
7 SENATOR BRUNO: Party vote in the
8 negative.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Secretary will read the party line vote.
14 Announce the results.
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38, nays -
16 nays 36, ayes 23.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 amendment is failed.
19 Senator Espada.
20 SENATOR ESPADA: I move in order
21 to ask a number of questions of Mr. -- of
22 Senator Holland's overview of the Senate bills
23 before us.
2673
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: It will
2 be in -- Senator Leichter was prior to you on
3 the list.
4 Senator Leichter.
5 SENATOR ESPADA: May I be placed
6 on the list?
7 Thank you.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
9 the biggest myth and the biggest falser of this
10 Capitol is that the bill that we're considering
11 is welfare reform. It is not. This is
12 scapegoating the poor and that's what this is.
13 It's an effort to blame the poor for the
14 financial difficulties that this state is in.
15 And that's wrong. It's unfair, unjust. It's
16 easy to scapegoat. It's easy to talk about a
17 failed system, but it's another thing, Senator
18 Holland, to come up with a fair response, and
19 this bill clearly and definitely is not. Yes,
20 welfare is unpopular and, yes, welfare has
21 certainly not been an answer for society at
22 large for the people on welfare, and I think we
23 know some of the things that need to be done,
2674
1 and we ought to know why you're not doing them.
2 The things that need to be done
3 is to provide jobs and to train people to have
4 these jobs. This bill does none of that. This
5 bill pure and simply slashes benefits for the
6 very vulnerable, fragile population, and not
7 helping society, this bill will only add to the
8 problems that we have in urban areas, in rural
9 areas throughout the state because you're going
10 to worsen the condition of poor people. You're
11 going to create more homelessness.
12 I just would focus on one aspect
13 of the bill and my colleagues will ask me
14 certain aspects, the provision after 60 days you
15 will cut off benefits for people on home
16 relief. The Governor originally proposed 90
17 days. We thought that was harsh. Yours is pure
18 and simply heartless saying after 60 days that's
19 it.
20 Let's take a look at the Michigan
21 experience, and we have the dubious benefit in
22 this state of having the budget director of
23 Michigan now using her slash and scorch
2675
1 techniques here in this state.
2 The Ford Foundation made a study
3 of what happened in Michigan where they had a
4 90-day cut-off on home relief. What they found
5 is that most of the former relief clients are in
6 precarious shape, but most are trying to work.
7 Only a small fraction can find or hold a regular
8 job. Those considered, quote, "young and
9 able-bodied", unquote, are doing better than
10 others but they are hardly thriving, and a
11 surprisingly small number, about a quarter, are
12 young and able-bodied. The great majority are
13 elderly, disabled or ill, and while Governor
14 Engler tried to discredit this report, the
15 Department of Social Services of Michigan later
16 said that "We don't think the report is
17 flawed." That's an actual quote.
18 Now, the mix of population in
19 this state of the people on home relief is no
20 different. Most are elderly. Most are sick.
21 Most are not able to go out and get jobs, and
22 even for those who can get jobs, there are
23 precious few jobs in this state. We have a
2676
1 fairly high level of unemployment in this state,
2 and we have a particularly high level of
3 unemployment or lack of jobs for people without
4 skills.
5 You want to come in with a bill
6 that provides for -- serious training for those
7 who can work, that provides for jobs creation, I
8 think you'll find a lot of support on this side
9 of the aisle, but I think it's unfortunate to
10 get up as Senator Stafford did and say, "We've
11 got a $5 billion budget gap" and then start
12 talking about welfare as if welfare is the cause
13 of this budget gap. The fact is that the
14 benefits that we pay people on social
15 assistance, particularly Aid For Dependent
16 Children, has decreased in the last few years by
17 17 percent. We have, in effect, slashed
18 benefits in this state by failing to keep up
19 with inflation, and if we have more people now
20 on welfare than we had in the late '70s or the
21 beginning of the decade of the '80s, it's
22 because of national programs during the Reagan
23 and Bush years which have put us in recession
2677
1 for a good portion of those years which has not
2 created the sort of economic client -- climate
3 that would allow people to have jobs and to
4 prosper.
5 In this state, we've seen that
6 where jobs are created -- real jobs are created,
7 that people will respond to them, but what I
8 would like to see is that effort of creating
9 jobs, of helping people and not what we find in
10 this bill.
11 And let me say, Senator Holland,
12 there are provisions in this bill that I can
13 support, very few of them. I think the
14 provision that you take away a license from a
15 father who refuses to pay child support, I can
16 support that. I can support finger imaging, and
17 many of us have supported finger imaging, but
18 the key elements of this bill is a punitive,
19 harsh effort to cut benefits for people who are
20 in dire need. It does really nothing
21 significant for our budget deficit, and it's
22 only going to add to the burden that cities such
23 as mine have, New York City, who are going to
2678
1 have to take care of all the additional homeless
2 that are going to be created by your bill and,
3 by the way, in Michigan, they found out the
4 homeless situation in Detroit became much worse
5 and Detroit was further burdened by having to
6 take care of these homeless as my city will be.
7 We've had now for some months,
8 you know, government by sloganeering. We've had
9 these promises of down-sizing government, of
10 cutting taxes, of jump starting the economy, but
11 when we take a look at the specific proposals,
12 what we see are these harsh, punitive cuts on
13 people who certainly are not responsible for the
14 financial problem that we -- that we have in
15 this state and they are going to sorely beset
16 and greatly hurt and be damaged by this sort of
17 an approach.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
19 recognizes Senator Espada.
20 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr.
21 President.
22 Would Senator Holland yield to -
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2679
1 Holland, do you yield to Senator Espada?
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Senator is happy to yield.
5 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you very
6 much, Mr. President, Senator Holland.
7 Just to get a baseline of what
8 we're talking about, because I too fear the
9 sloganizing and the kind of campaign rhetoric
10 that replaces really responsible debate here.
11 So, to the facts, how many ADC
12 recipients do we have in our state?
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: One second. In
14 1994, 1,263,278. That was 1994.
15 SENATOR ESPADA: How many of -
16 if I may, through you, Mr. President -- how many
17 of those are children?
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Are there
19 children on here? November 1994, children,
20 819,283.
21 SENATOR ESPADA: And again
22 through you, Mr. President, how long does the
23 average ADC recipient continue on the case loads
2680
1 continuously?
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: The average is
3 about two years but many are on much longer than
4 that, and you know that, Senator.
5 SENATOR ESPADA: I'm sorry?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: The average is
7 about two years, but many of them are on much
8 longer than that.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: And of the 8-,
10 almost 900,000 children -
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: 819,000.
12 SENATOR ESPADA: Pardon?
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: 819,000. It's
14 not almost 900,000.
15 SENATOR ESPADA: We'll take your
16 figure because we're dealing with facts. How
17 many women are in the total of 1.3 million -
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: I couldn't tell
19 you.
20 SENATOR ESPADA: -- now that
21 we've established children?
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Many of them
23 are single women families, and there are 449,000
2681
1 adults. I don't know how many are men and how
2 many are women.
3 SENATOR ESPADA: You don't know
4 how many women we're talking about?
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know
6 whether the families are dual families or
7 single-parent families; I can't tell you, but
8 there are 449,000 adults.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: Would you say
10 that -- that most of those -- if I may, Mr.
11 President, most of those qualify for this
12 program because there is no male around?
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. Most do.
14 SENATOR ESPADA: So I don't want
15 to invent things here, but we do want to have
16 conservative estimates. Would you say that, of
17 those 400,000 or so, the great majority are
18 women?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'll give you
20 that, yes, sir.
21 SENATOR ESPADA: And would you
22 also conclude, Senator Holland, that when we
23 talk about welfare in this state and attach
2682
1 welfare dependency to the budget deficits, that
2 that really isn't an honest or even factual
3 statement because, in fact, we are -- by your
4 facts, we're dealing with children, babies and
5 women who care for those children who are on ADC
6 rolls.
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know
8 what the point of your question is, Senator.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: Just factual
10 questions. Would you conclude on the basis of
11 your facts that when we talk about budget
12 deficits, getting people off the dole, people
13 who have been on average two years, women and
14 children, that we're not really talking about
15 jobs and people who could otherwise be employed
16 in our private sector, that, in fact, we're
17 talking about babies, children, for the most
18 part?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm talking
20 about families. I'm talking about families, and
21 I think we've done the wrong thing with families
22 in this state for the last 40 years. I think
23 we've ruined family values. We've ruined the
2683
1 work ethic. We don't encourage kids to go to
2 school in your city, and I went there with you.
3 The graduation rate in four years of high school
4 is only 43 percent, and that's been four years
5 and nothing is done about it.
6 So we're not on the right track,
7 Senator. You can talk about the 900- -- 819,000
8 children. We want to protect those children and
9 we have not been doing that for 40 years.
10 Instead, we have been breaking up families,
11 encouraging fathers not to stay with their
12 families, and we want to turn that around, and I
13 think it's way past time to turn that around.
14 SENATOR ESPADA: Through you, Mr.
15 President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Espada, are you asking Senator Holland to
18 yield?
19 Senator Holland, do you continue
20 to yield?
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Senator yields.
2684
1 SENATOR ESPADA: I think this can
2 be very fruitful because, in fact, I agree with
3 your analysis. In fact, I agree that some of
4 these negative outcomes have to be changed.
5 It's your conclusion, sir, and even more so the
6 premise that guides your analysis that I differ
7 with. And we were just in -- you know, by way
8 of this colloquy and the process of really
9 destroying once and for all this myth, that what
10 we're really talking about is some guys that are
11 driving Cadillacs or some women that are wearing
12 mink coats. We're dealing with the facts, and I
13 thought that maybe with your indulgence we could
14 continue talking about the facts, but I think
15 we'll get a clearer picture of what we're
16 talking about and, in fact, get to some of those
17 results that you and I want.
18 Just -- just one other -- just
19 one other question that I think is really
20 germane and key to this whole debate is the
21 issue of employability. How, sir, do you
22 determine in your legislation or even in your
23 perceptions and your analyses what is an
2685
1 employable person, and how is that determined?
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: You want the
3 definition of "employable"?
4 SENATOR ESPADA: I'll take yours.
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's not mine.
6 It's from the Federal Jobs Program, I believe.
7 "A person shall be deemed employable if they
8 are not unemployed due to one or more of the
9 following:
10 (A) A person who is ill or
11 incapacitated or 60 years of age or older;
12 (B) A child under 16 years of age
13 or under 19 and attending full-time or secondary
14 vocational or technical school;
15 (C) A person whose presence in
16 the home is required because of the illness or
17 incapacity of another member of the household;
18 (D) A parent or other relative
19 personally providing care for a child under six
20 years of age -- I certainly would look at that
21 one, and;
22 (E) A parent or other relative or
23 child under three years of age;
2686
1 (F) A pregnant woman that has
2 been medically verified that the child is to be
3 born in the month in which such participation
4 would otherwise be required or within the
5 six-month period immediately following such
6 months.
7 I would certainly look at that
8 one too, but that's the definition.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: You just defined
10 "employability", sir?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Employable,
12 yes; definition of "employable".
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Espada, are you asking Senator Holland to
15 continue to yield?
16 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes, I am.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Holland, do you continue to yield?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Senator yields.
22 SENATOR ESPADA: And how many of
23 the current home relief recipients are
2687
1 employable?
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm sorry. I
3 missed the first part of it.
4 SENATOR ESPADA: How many of the
5 home relief recipients are employable using your
6 definition, sir?
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: From the
8 experience of the county of Westchester and
9 their Workfare program, approximately 35 to 40
10 percent of the able-bodied recipients are
11 employable.
12 SENATOR ESPADA: And how is that
13 determined, sir, if I may?
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: It was done
15 actually by fact in Westchester County. They
16 have it on the computer by how many people came
17 to their Workfare program.
18 SENATOR ESPADA: To be
19 recertified for benefits or as a result of -
20 what participation are you referring to, sir?
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm talking
22 about the Workfare program that was implemented
23 in the county of Westchester in 1989, and they
2688
1 put in the computer all of the people and what
2 their qualifications were. They found that
3 approximately 35 percent of the home relief
4 recipients are employable, 35 to 40 percent.
5 SENATOR ESPADA: Are you familiar
6 with -
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Espada, are you asking again for Senator Holland
9 to continue to yield?
10 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes, I am.
11 Are you familiar, sir, with some
12 of the assessments and evaluations that have
13 been done of the jobs programs that you borrowed
14 the definition of "employable" from,
15 "employability" from? Are you familiar with
16 some of those?
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know,
18 Senator.
19 SENATOR ESPADA: If you would
20 allow me.
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
22 SENATOR ESPADA: The most salient
23 point that comes out of a thorough analysis that
2689
1 was conducted of those programs indicates that
2 the people on home relief or, for that matter,
3 on ADC, that participated in these job searches
4 and in these various programs after they went
5 through them -- I'll give you the statewide
6 total -- the percentage of those individuals
7 that actually ended up in an employment
8 situation is 7.4 percent statewide. The
9 percentage of those individuals that were
10 sanctioned were 17.2 percent. New York City,
11 the statewide -- the rest of the state, similar
12 numbers. Upstate, more sanctions; less jobs
13 downstate.
14 But it doesn't change the point
15 drastically, the point being that this seems -
16 these programs that you talk about, whether they
17 be in Westchester County or other variations of
18 that, seem to be sanction mills because they
19 don't, in fact, put people back to work. In
20 fact, by the statistics I just read to you and
21 I'll share, if you'd like, they really don't put
22 people back to work.
23 Are you interested at all, sir,
2690
1 in why that is the case?
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: I couldn't
3 agree with you more, Senator. I think you're
4 absolutely right. I think the programs that we
5 have operated in this nation and in this state
6 have not put people back to work, and the
7 American Works Program and many of the other
8 programs are -- are a much better way. Jobs
9 First is a much better way rather than putting
10 people on the dole, trying to get them a job.
11 We have an example here in Albany
12 County that Senator Hoblock can tell you about,
13 where a man was on the dole for 35 years and
14 never, never given a job or found a job by the
15 Department of Social Services in the county of
16 Albany, and when American Works came in, they
17 got him a job and he's still with that job after
18 four months so that they got paid.
19 There is no question that the
20 system was not working, still is not working and
21 that's what we're trying to correct, and I think
22 that people would feel much better about
23 themselves if we can find them a job, and we
2691
1 haven't.
2 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President,
3 if I may.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Holland, do you continue to yield?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Senator continues to yield.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: I think in a
10 critical point, I think we agree then that
11 people that go out of their way and participate
12 with these programs -- those that don't
13 participate get sanctioned and that seems to be
14 working. Those people that go through it don't
15 seem to end up with a job, yet through some of
16 your legislation or through your conferences
17 legislation, we have these automatic cut-off
18 periods.
19 And my question to you is do you
20 think we're sending the right moral signal, the
21 right -- the right -- not only moral signal, but
22 the right workable and practicable solution to
23 the problem. If, in fact, people are trying to
2692
1 get jobs; if, in fact, they're participating
2 with our various work participation programs and
3 sanctions, then why would you just cut them off
4 and make believe like on the 61st day somebody
5 is going to take care of their needs? Doesn't
6 that violate the state's Constitution, the
7 provisions that were cited by my colleague?
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I
9 believe that the taxpayers of this state have
10 been violated for years. I believe that we have
11 encouraged people to stay on home relief,
12 able-bodied people such as yourself to stay on
13 home relief, and I think that's the wrong thing
14 to do. I think we are breaking down society. I
15 think that's the wrong message to give, and I
16 think it has to be turned around.
17 And I'm saying -- we're saying to
18 the people now, it is individual
19 responsibility. You have to take care of
20 yourself. It's a temporary -- Medicaid and
21 welfare is a temporary situation. We want to
22 help you just as our Constitution says, if you
23 need help for a short period of time, but we
2693
1 don't want you or two or three generations to
2 stay on this program, that is all, and our
3 training programs have not been working and, in
4 fact, there are, I think like 160 federal
5 training programs. I don't know how many there
6 are in the state of New York.
7 And people are being stolen from
8 left and right. I don't know whether you saw a
9 small article in the paper, Senator, recently.
10 The FBI did a study on the fraud and abuse in
11 the Medicaid and welfare system nationally, and
12 their figure was $44 billion. Now, if New York
13 State takes 20 percent of the Medicaid costs, of
14 the long-term costs, then who -- when we had our
15 hearings many -- four years ago and we were told
16 that there was $2 billion of fraud and abuse in
17 this system, in this state, there is so much
18 stealing it's unbelievable, and we have to turn
19 it around.
20 SENATOR ESPADA: Point of
21 information, Mr. President, on this -- this is
22 the kind of stuff we hear all the time, these
23 assertions of -- about fraud and abuse. You
2694
1 know, we have a trillion dollar federal budget,
2 a little over -- I'll give you whatever highest
3 number you want. You want a billion, you want
4 two billion, you want -- ten percent -- two
5 percent of that goes to that kind of thing. How
6 you come up with $50 billion in fraud, I'll
7 never know.
8 But with your permission, if we
9 could just -- you indicated you visited my
10 district, and indeed you did, and let me just
11 say that that's more than most of your
12 colleagues will ever accomplish. That's most -
13 more reality that will visit -- that will be
14 visited upon them in terms of what we're talking
15 about than they'll ever get, so to that, kudos
16 to you; but let me introduce you, because it was
17 in Newsday, to Elisa Arguello, and she has two
18 children, teenagers, some of them -- who are
19 seventeen and six. Some of them will be subject
20 -- in fact, both of them, I guess, will be
21 subject to your LearnFare legislation.
22 AFDC grant, $577. This is
23 current welfare income we're talking about.
2695
1 Food stamps, $241; child support allowance, $50,
2 and that is sporadic. The total income to this
3 woman who is raising her children in our
4 district, $868 per month.
5 Current expenses. She pays $740
6 rent; phone is $50; utility is 40; food 140;
7 household supplies $15; shoes and clothing $10;
8 transportation $7.50, for a total in expenses -
9 mind you, she takes in 868 in income -- her
10 expenses are $1,002.50.
11 Does any of that sound like fraud
12 and abuse? Does any of that make sense to cut
13 by 15 or 25 percent?
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, you
15 are absolutely right. Most of the clients are
16 in need of assistance and they don't steal,
17 absolutely right. We are giving that woman an
18 additional possibility with the waiver of
19 earning an additional $200 and which will be set
20 aside and not affect her grant at all, in fact
21 20 percent of everything she earns above that.
22 Don't you know there are many
23 hard-working families in your district who are
2696
1 not on Medicare and welfare who don't make it
2 every month, either, who still struggle and work
3 three jobs. That's all we're saying to you.
4 Everybody is struggling. Our taxpayers are
5 struggling, and we have to turn this system
6 around. It's not working. It's not fair to the
7 hard-working -- which is most of your district
8 -- the hard-working people down there who are
9 struggling and don't make it every month.
10 SENATOR ESPADA: I think, Mr.
11 President, if I may.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you
13 asking Senator Holland to yield again?
14 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes, sir.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 yields.
17 SENATOR ESPADA: Senator, I'm
18 deeply heartened by that comment, but you know
19 when times are bad -- and you indicate they are
20 bad and I agree they are bad -- they are bad for
21 working-class folks and they are bad for poor
22 folks that can only wish, as we've indicated
23 here, that they could have a job.
2697
1 So let's just deal with the
2 realities. The realities are that these
3 working-class people are hurting and we have
4 certain amendments. The amendments here will
5 restore $13 per month to somebody who is blind
6 and can't get out of their apartment.
7 How on earth in the name of
8 frugality, in the name of austerity budgets, in
9 the name of anything sacred could you justify
10 our Constitution, the 1938 amendment, into being
11 to stop this kind of thing you are trying to
12 promulgate here today?
13 The constitutional amendment in
14 essence, and this is its essence, not verbatim,
15 was adopted to ensure that the poor do not go
16 without food, clothing, shelter and other
17 essentials. We can not penalize the poor. We
18 can not scapegoat the poor because somehow you
19 and I have not done a good enough job of
20 providing jobs so that the working-class people,
21 the able-bodied working people can have the kind
22 of economic security that they deserve.
23 You know, there is this whole
2698
1 premise to your argument that, somehow, because
2 working people, whoever they may be, don't have
3 it as good as they should, that economic
4 security, the ability to put their kids through
5 school, that somehow we have to lower our
6 standards, that somebody is going to have to pay
7 for this, and that it has to be those people on
8 public assistance.
9 I will give you some other
10 alternatives. I only wish you would study some
11 of the other options that we have at our
12 disposal because the big tax breaks that the
13 same newspaper covered just a day ago had some
14 of these women that want to be hard-working
15 people going to Republic National Bank. They
16 got $6.4 million from Guiliani. They said they
17 were going to save 2400 jobs and, in fact, laid
18 off hundreds of people after they got our
19 millions, the taxpayers' money, the ones that
20 you and I are sworn to protect.
21 Viacom International, 15 million
22 they got. They said, "Give us the millions,
23 we're going to create 4,000 jobs." They laid
2699
1 off people. I could go on and on.
2 This job seeker, Janet Montalbo,
3 went to each and every one of those corporate
4 welfare recipients and she could not get a job
5 even though they promised you and I that they
6 would deliver on that promise. Is there any of
7 your legislation here to stem that kind of
8 rip-off in our system?
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I have
10 to go back to when you and I visited your area,
11 and I have to go back to education, particularly
12 in the City of New York, and where some of the
13 schools we visited the graduation rate in four
14 years was 2 and 3 percent, in my area it's 95-98
15 percent.
16 So I sent for the report from the
17 city, and it averages 43 percent graduation from
18 your high schools in four years. If you don't
19 have an educated work force, people are not
20 going to come in and bring jobs in the area in
21 the first place, and that's the first problem
22 that the City of New York has.
23 But going back to the overall
2700
1 problem, what we're trying to do here is we're
2 trying to reduce the size of this government.
3 We're trying to reduce the taxes that this
4 government imposes on its individuals and
5 corporations. We have lost 600,000 jobs in the
6 last five years, and I know you are sick to
7 death of hearing that, but that's an absolute
8 fact; and unless we can stop these taxes, unless
9 we can encourage more business and industry to
10 come back here, unless we can educate
11 generations of the kids in the City of New York,
12 then it's not going to turn around. We are just
13 not doing it right.
14 Let me tell you about SSI. You
15 talked about SSI. Oh, one other thing before I
16 talk about SSI.
17 We spend the most money of
18 anybody in this nation and probably in the world
19 on social services and Medicaid; and after we do
20 these cuts, where do we go from number 1 in
21 spending? We will still be number 1 in
22 spending. We won't have lost anything. We are
23 very generous and try to protect our people. I
2701
1 don't want to be ripped off, but people who need
2 help we like to help.
3 SSI -- the federal government
4 gives to each individual on SSI in the 50 states
5 $446. Utah adds an additional one, so they get
6 $447. We add $86, so the individuals get $532.
7 There are 25 states, Senator, who give
8 absolutely nothing. And going from fourth place
9 at $432 when the rest of the world gets a $13
10 increase, we will go to sixth place. We're not
11 losing here. We're not losing here. We're not
12 cutting a great deal. We are asking everybody
13 to help us because we have a $5 billion deficit,
14 and we're asking everybody to help us because we
15 have to turn around this government and this tax
16 picture.
17 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you.
18 Mr. President, I would like to
19 continue just for a little longer. I know some
20 of my colleagues want to get in on this debate.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Holland, do you continue to yield?
23 SENATOR ESPADA: If Senator
2702
1 Holland will continue to yield.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Espada, please indulge me for just one moment.
4 The chair recognizes Senator
5 Skelos.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you. Mr.
7 President. On behalf of Senator Seward, there
8 will be an immediate meeting of the Energy
9 Committee in Room 332.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
11 will be an immediate meeting of the Energy
12 Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room
13 332.
14 Thank you, Senator Espada.
15 Senator Holland continues to yield.
16 SENATOR ESPADA: I just want to
17 respond to some of the points Senator Holland
18 asserted. One of them was, again, back to the
19 visit to my district and the educational system
20 in my district and the results of what's
21 happening there.
22 You visited two systems. You
23 visited a system that really had as its class
2703
1 really the best that we have in my district, and
2 that is a sad commentary in terms of outcomes.
3 But we need to understand that reality before
4 you and I conclude anything negative about the
5 people who are struggling through that system.
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: We visited
7 Adlai Stevenson High School which has about 4500
8 kids. The class we visited was the cream of the
9 crop, no question, and they'll do well under any
10 circumstances. They'll carry themselves.
11 SENATOR ESPADA: Repeat that
12 number, because I think it will astonish some
13 people in your district.
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: 4500.
15 SENATOR ESPADA: They have 4500
16 kids in one building.
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. That's
18 not unusual, I don't think. It happens in the
19 rest of the state. Then we visited another
20 school, I'm sure you're going to talk about,
21 too, where there were only six in the class and
22 maybe four instructors.
23 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes. But with
2704
1 respect to the educational realities in my
2 district what the youngsters that I presented to
3 you were telling you and what was most
4 unfortunate about that whole lesson was you just
5 didn't get it, my respected Senator. You just
6 didn't get it, because what they were saying was
7 that they would have liked to have finished in
8 four years, but that it was that issue with the
9 HIV mom or it was that issue of that part-time
10 job or it was that issue with the gun toting
11 people out in the front. It was the issues of
12 them getting a little more cooperation from the
13 police. A little had to do with the kind of
14 commitment that teachers were making to them.
15 They visited upon you a reality about their
16 homes and their neighborhoods; and yet,
17 throughout all of that, they were determined to
18 continue through their school experience and
19 graduate.
20 And wouldn't you agree that under
21 all that adversity, who really cares if at the
22 end of that you don't have a dropout but in fact
23 you have a high school graduate going on to
2705
1 college? So why do we continue to look at that
2 when in fact if your statistical analysis would
3 be kind of more longitudinal in nature, you
4 would see that they do finish. They stay on a
5 couple of more years than they do in your
6 district; but, boy, should we reward that kind
7 of determination with something more than the
8 kind of penalties you want to impose to
9 learnfare, because, in fact, these kids stayed
10 on there. They wanted to stay on there.
11 Their mothers didn't deserve any
12 sanction for their perseverance. What they were
13 asking you is to understand that their mom
14 didn't have a dad in their home, that their mom
15 maybe had a dad or an abusing husband or
16 somebody else that had to intercede on mom's
17 behalf, I mean a host of problems that add up to
18 a real reality that for some reason you either
19 got or you choose to dismiss in your analysis
20 and your recommendation and in fact in your
21 legislation. These kids were telling you that
22 they want to finish, that they can finish with
23 more assistance.
2706
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm sorry,
2 Senator, I don't buy that totally. I know that
3 the higher percentages finish in two or three
4 years, but it's still not a decent percentage as
5 far as I'm concerned. I still think your school
6 system is not delivering to the kids down there
7 the benefits that it should be delivering, and I
8 think that's the first step that the City of New
9 York and you should be straightening up is
10 getting education to those kids.
11 If you don't think that we have
12 the same problems in all of our districts, you
13 are absolutely wrong. There is no abuse in our
14 districts? There's no single parents in our
15 districts? Absolutely, Senator. They have the
16 same thing. They stay with it a little longer.
17 They stay with the kids, and that's what you
18 have to do -- or we have to do, not you. We
19 have to do.
20 We have to rebuild the family
21 which will stay with those kids, and the kids
22 have to stay at home even though they are
23 pregnant and delivering kids rather than putting
2707
1 them up in houses on the outside and paying for
2 that and blowing the family apart, and we have
3 to encourage them to go to school. Even if it's
4 taking $25 a month away from them, we want them
5 to go to school. It's not the $25. It's the
6 education that they and their families need to
7 support them later on in life and support their
8 families.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President.
10 On the bill, if I may.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Espada.
13 SENATOR ESPADA: First, I want to
14 thank Senator Holland for responding as he did
15 to my questions.
16 I think today we move beyond the
17 kind of meanness, the kind of effort to
18 criminalize our ability to assist people in
19 need. We move beyond taking away school
20 lunches. We move beyond taking away child
21 care. We shred the safety net. We are really
22 talking about calculated cruelty.
23 In this exchange, I think if most
2708
1 of New York State could have witnessed this,
2 they would have seen -- or they would have
3 witnessed that there is no answer to Elisa
4 Aguello. She wants a job.
5 There is this whole notion -- in
6 fact, it's true -- that we have lost 600,000
7 jobs, but we don't talk about that there was an
8 equal increase in the AFDC and HR rolls because
9 of the kind of economic conditions. That kind
10 of economic adversity visits the poorest in our
11 state before it visits anybody else, and that's
12 the reality we're talking about.
13 You know, what are the solutions
14 that are being proposed? Slash it. Slash the
15 AFDC budget by 25 percent. But Ms. Elisa
16 Aguello right now she has a deficit of over $200
17 per month and she's trying her best. When she
18 did get a job, our current policy that none of
19 this legislation really addresses would have
20 penalized her after four months if she had
21 stayed on the job. Her income with a job would
22 have been $869.12. Her expenses with a job
23 would have been $897.
2709
1 We have not figured out a way to
2 make work actually pay off for people who want
3 to work. Instead, what we do is we do things in
4 the name of cost containment like this kind of
5 cap that we want to put on the rent shelter
6 allowance which really interferes with a court
7 case now in progress in Manhattan and really
8 violates not only the spirit but the letter of
9 the constitutional amendment referenced
10 earlier. But, in fact, it replaces the kind of
11 allowance with a subsidy to landlords, $3,000 to
12 $5,000 to a welfare hotel or to a homeless
13 shelter.
14 Is that the kind of relief that
15 taxpayers went to the polls for when they wanted
16 change? No. I think what they wanted was to
17 put everybody back to work, to lend a hand to
18 people who were really trying. They never meant
19 to be as cruel, they never meant to do the kinds
20 of things that make absolutely no sense. They
21 never meant to be as indecent as we make them
22 out to be.
23 They, in fact, want us to be
2710
1 responsible. And, as indicated by Senator
2 Paterson, I think folks are reading the polls,
3 and all they can come back to is, since they
4 can't create jobs, since they want to give
5 corporate welfare to the business sector, since
6 they want to give tax relief to businesses that
7 don't create jobs and to the wealthy, there is
8 always the welfare poor that you can bash, and
9 that's what we will be doing here today.
10 I thank you, Mr. President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
12 recognizes Senator Waldon.
13 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
14 much, Mr. President. If the learned gentleman
15 from Rockland and Orange Counties will indulge
16 me and respond to some questions, I would
17 greatly appreciate it.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Holland, do you yield to Senator Waldon?
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 yields.
23 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
2711
1 much, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator
2 Holland.
3 Senator Holland, I want to talk
4 about workfare, but I need to take a circuitous
5 route to that if you will permit me. Are you
6 aware of a $950 million business surcharge
7 relief that's in this budget as proposed by
8 Governor Pataki?
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: No.
10 SENATOR WALDON: You're not?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: No.
12 SENATOR WALDON: Are you aware of
13 a $440 million relief to G.E.?
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's not in the
15 welfare area, is it, sir?
16 SENATOR WALDON: I beg your
17 pardon?
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's not in the
19 welfare area, is it, sir?
20 SENATOR WALDON: No, no, but I'm
21 getting to that.
22 SENATOR WALDON: My colleague
23 Senator Oppenheimer said it is listed under AFDC
2712
1 "aid for dependent corporations." If that's
2 her aid, I applaud it. I accept it. I thank
3 you, Senator Oppenheimer.
4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Not
5 specifically, no, Senator.
6 SENATOR WALDON: You are not
7 aware of either of those situations?
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: No.
9 SENATOR WALDON: Are you aware of
10 a $720 million personal income tax which
11 benefits a very small percentage of people at
12 the top, somewhere around 5 or 6 percent? -- 6
13 percent.
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: I am aware, and
15 you are incorrect.
16 SENATOR WALDON: I beg your
17 pardon?
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: I am aware of
19 that, sir, but it's a percentage breakdown. The
20 first 24 percent don't pay anything. The rest,
21 it's a percentage breakdown which is similar,
22 but it certainly is financially better if the
23 percentage is same for a $200,000 earner than it
2713
1 is for a $30,000 earner.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Okay. I'll ask
3 a question, if I may continue?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Does
5 Senator Holland continue to yield?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 yields.
9 SENATOR WALDON: I apologize. I
10 really do, Mr. President. I did not mean to not
11 go through you.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'm
13 feeling slighted, Senator Waldon. I just -- I
14 like to interject every now and then.
15 Senator Holland continues to
16 yield.
17 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Holland,
18 are you aware of a $158 million hit on the City
19 University of New York under this proposed
20 budget?
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
22 SENATOR WALDON: Now we're going
23 to get close to Robin Hood's barn. Are you
2714
1 aware that if that goes through as proposed that
2 not only will a number of students have to leave
3 the City University system but professors and
4 other employees of the City University system
5 will lose their jobs?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: I think there
7 needs to be some culling out in the system, yes.
8 SENATOR WALDON: Okay. Mr.
9 President. If I may continue?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Holland, do you continue to yield?
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 continues to yield.
15 SENATOR WALDON: My learned
16 colleague, are you aware of 295 million or
17 thereabouts reduction in funding for the State
18 University of New York?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
20 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President.
21 If I may continue?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Holland, do you continue to yield?
2715
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, are you
3 aware that if these two cuts remain and if these
4 two systems are negatively and disparately
5 impacted as those cuts will be forced to happen
6 that about 40,000 students will leave the City
7 University and State University system?
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Sir, I don't
9 buy that at all. I believe that the system
10 needs to be culled out. I think the Governor is
11 asking everybody that we need some help in
12 culling out and improving the management. I
13 have no doubt there are some people in that
14 system, whether they be in administration or
15 whether they be in the teaching aspects, that
16 should leave right now. Are you aware, Senator,
17 that it costs us about $11,000 per student to go
18 to the State University system and other states
19 don't spend that much.
20 We spend a lot of money on the
21 higher education portion of this budget, and I'm
22 sure Senator LaValle can do a better job at this
23 than I am doing, but there needs to be some
2716
1 culling out. And all we're asking of the higher
2 education people is: We're cutting. The
3 federal government is cutting. We're asking you
4 to look at it and cut too.
5 We're not asking you to close
6 eight campuses. We're not asking you to not
7 educate the kids, because we want them
8 educated. We want you to be realistic like
9 we're trying to be and the federal government is
10 trying to be and the other people are, because
11 the taxpayers are saying to us, "You have to
12 cut."
13 SENATOR WALDON: If I may?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Holland, do you continue to yield?
16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
17 SENATOR WALDON: I'm not going to
18 be long, I assure you.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 continues to yield.
21 SENATOR WALDON: I appreciate -
22 Mr. President. Please advise the Senator I do
23 appreciate his indulgence. Sometimes I'm slower
2717
1 than other times. I'm 58 now; these things
2 happen.
3 If I may, Senator Holland, are
4 you aware of a $1.2 billion Medicaid hit that's
5 contained in this budget, which really equals
6 $4.8 billion? And are you also aware, if you
7 are aware of that figure, of the number of home
8 health care providers and other hospital-type
9 medical-type employees who will lose their jobs
10 if the budget remains as proposed?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir, I am,
12 and I would probably agree with you in some of
13 the instances that we have to make some
14 adjustments. I'm sure that when and if we get
15 together with the Assembly we will make some of
16 those adjustments.
17 SENATOR WALDON: I'm getting
18 close to conclusion.
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 continues to yield.
22 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
23 much, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator
2718
1 Holland.
2 Senator Holland, the people who
3 will lose their jobs under these figures that
4 I've shared with you, some which you agree with
5 and others not, and I can appreciate that, will
6 those who have no training because there is no
7 proviso for training under your workfare
8 proposal, will those who come out of that system
9 and who will be asked to find jobs, will they
10 replace the union employees who will lose their
11 jobs as the result of these budget cuts that
12 we've just discussed.
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I really don't
14 know the answer to the question, Senator. I'm
15 told there is a part of the workfare law that
16 protects unions and that union people cannot be
17 displaced by other individuals.
18 SENATOR WALDON: Last question,
19 Mr. President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Holland, do you yield to one last question?
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2719
1 yields.
2 SENATOR WALDON: I was glad to
3 hear you say that, because I'm now going to ask
4 you, are you aware that in the City of New York
5 that people who are under the aegis of workfare
6 as characterized in the City of New York have
7 replaced painters who were unionized painters in
8 the City of New York and are now working as
9 painters -- I may have mischaracterized where
10 they came from. They are work release people
11 who have replaced painters in the City of New
12 York. Are you aware of that?
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm not aware
14 of that, but my understanding is that the unions
15 have met with the Mayor and they have worked out
16 their agreements in the area, but I'm not aware
17 of that specific case.
18 SENATOR WALDON: I thank you, Mr.
19 President. I thank Senator Holland. That is
20 not my knowledge base, Senator Holland, but I
21 thank you for your thoughts on it.
22 Thank you, Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
2720
1 recognizes Senator Abate.
2 SENATOR ABATE: Would Senator
3 Holland yield to a question?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Holland, would you yield to Senator Abate?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Mr.
7 President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 yields.
10 SENATOR ABATE: While I have a
11 number of concerns around the welfare reform
12 proposal, I, too, believe it's ill-conceived and
13 will not produce the results that you think it
14 will. It will force more and more people into
15 more expensive institutions. They are going to
16 be forced into jails and prisons, into homeless
17 shelters. An arbitrary cutoff that tells an
18 individual they must get a job when no job is
19 available, they must get training and no
20 training is available, to me is unrealistic.
21 But there is one provision that I
22 think is particularly flawed; and that is the
23 provision that talks about requiring minors, in
2721
1 particular, pregnant teenagers under 18 who
2 would normally receive aid to dependent
3 children, saying to them that they must go home
4 unless -- under your provisions, you enunciated
5 some exceptions.
6 And my question is, are you aware
7 that only one percent of mothers on welfare are
8 teenagers under 18? And my question is, if
9 that's the case and my statistic is true, why
10 are you targeting pregnant teenagers under 18
11 because the majority of them who are pregnant
12 aren't on welfare?
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know
14 about your percentage, Senator, but assuming
15 it's correct or near that, our only point is
16 regardless of how many people it is that we
17 believe -- I believe that that young lady,
18 pregnant or not, if at all possible should stay
19 with her family, and I don't believe the state
20 should take over and set her up and pay for her
21 in an apartment where she has no adult
22 supervision. I just think that's the wrong
23 thing to do.
2722
1 SENATOR ABATE: Will the Senator
2 yield to another question?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Holland, do you yield to another question?
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 yields.
8 SENATOR ABATE: So then my
9 understanding of the goal of this bill is to
10 save dollars?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, as a
12 secondary thing it is to save dollars.
13 Primarily, I think, the best advantage is to
14 keep young people at home and to have the young
15 mother with her baby under the care and guidance
16 of her parents or guardians or whatever. I
17 would prefer to have her with her husband; but
18 that failing, parents are second.
19 SENATOR ABATE: Would the Senator
20 yield to another -
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Holland, do you yield to another question?
23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
2723
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 yields.
3 SENATOR ABATE: In an ideal
4 world, that may be the case, but would you
5 acknowledge that many young teenagers and, in
6 fact, the teenagers that you are talking about
7 that are on welfare and not living at home, many
8 of them come from dysfunctional families and the
9 majority of them have been either sexually
10 abused or assaulted.
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: I wouldn't -
12 no. No. I don't know that, and I'm sure you
13 don't know that, either. We're not taking those
14 people and putting them back in the house. We
15 don't want them if that's the situation, but I
16 still feel that it's not only in the City of New
17 York. It's in your district. It's in my
18 district that those things may happen. I still
19 feel that they are better with the family if at
20 all possible.
21 SENATOR ABATE: Do you -- will
22 the Senator yield to another?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2724
1 Holland, do you continue to yield to Senator
2 Abate?
3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 yields.
6 SENATOR ABATE: Do you concede
7 that the ultimate outcome will be that these
8 young teenagers will not return home? They will
9 stay on the street, and their children will be
10 at risk, or many of them may even seek
11 abortions. Do you see that the two other
12 alternatives may occur as a result of this
13 legislation?
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Anything can
15 happen, Senator. Do you think we have done the
16 right thing for the last 40 years? Do you think
17 we have encouraged families to stay together?
18 Do you think we've encouraged fathers to stay
19 with their children? We haven't done the right
20 thing, and we're trying to move this back into
21 more family values, more supervision, and it
22 just makes more sense to me that way. I don't
23 know any other way to explain my position.
2725
1 SENATOR ABATE: Can I respond?
2 Was that a question?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You have
4 the floor, Senator Abate.
5 SENATOR ABATE: I think the issue
6 is not around family values. The issue is
7 around education and showing young women through
8 education, through counseling to parenting
9 skills, to help them be productive and
10 functioning individuals.
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Fine.
12 SENATOR ABATE: As you said
13 before, the key to our economy, the key to
14 economic and human productivity, is education;
15 and this bill completely avoids seeking what I
16 think is the appropriate remedy.
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't think
18 so, Senator. I feel that if they're home with
19 their parents, maybe they have a babysitter
20 built in. I don't say it takes education away
21 from young women because they are home rather
22 than living in an apartment by themselves with a
23 child. I think they have a better opportunity
2726
1 of education if they are home with their parents
2 and their young child or their guardians rather
3 than by themselves.
4 SENATOR ABATE: Would the Senator
5 yield to another question?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Holland, do you yield to another question?
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 yields.
11 SENATOR ABATE: There is another
12 part. There is a part that talks about
13 unmarried persons on home relief who are under
14 21, saying that they will lose their benefits
15 unless they return home. But that individual
16 wouldn't be eligible for home relief unless they
17 were able to show that their parent or guardian
18 was not willing to support them in the first
19 place. So I don't understand how this
20 legislation would work in reality.
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm sorry. I
22 missed the end of the question.
23 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. In order
2727
1 for an individual to be eligible for home relief
2 they must show that their guardian and parents
3 do not want to support them, and yet this
4 legislation would force them back to that very
5 environment where those parents and guardians
6 don't want them.
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't think
8 it does that, does it?
9 If the parent does not want them
10 in the household, they are not forced back into
11 the house.
12 SENATOR ABATE: Pardon me?
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: If the parent
14 does not want them in the household, they are
15 not forced back into the house.
16 SENATOR ABATE: And that is -- I
17 don't see that in the legislation.
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's my
19 understanding, Senator. I will be glad to back
20 you up on it if you have any questions when it
21 actually happens.
22 SENATOR ABATE: I will have to
23 look at that.
2728
1 On the bill.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Abate on the bill.
4 SENATOR ABATE: I believe that
5 instead of reuniting families, which is, Senator
6 Holland, the goal that you conceive this bill
7 will produce, instead this bill will force young
8 teenage women -- and we're talking about a very
9 small percentage of them -- who are pregnant not
10 back to their families but putting their
11 children at risk; that these young women will -
12 instead of going to their homes will go to the
13 street. They will lose that financial benefit
14 and that the children will be raised on the
15 street and we will have to pay for these
16 individuals in shelters, so we will be putting
17 the young woman at risk as well as the young
18 child.
19 I think we have to get in the
20 real world. When we talk about picket fences
21 and we talk about babysitters and we talk about
22 functioning families and mothers and fathers who
23 care about their teenage daughters, we are not
2729
1 talking about a huge subset of population from
2 the city that I have come from, and that's New
3 York City. And if we're going to make a
4 difference, it is not through a punitive effort
5 such as this. That will not drive young women
6 back to their homes because the profile of this
7 young woman is one who does not want to go back
8 to the home because she's been subject to abuse
9 in that home. And even though there's an
10 exception that says that if the person can show
11 that she has been abused she could still be
12 entitled to benefits, this is the very
13 individual who does not want to go back to
14 social services, does not want to engage in a
15 hearing, does not want to confront their parents
16 around this abuse and neglect.
17 So what will happen in reality is
18 that the young woman will choose not to take the
19 benefits, will choose not to go home. She will
20 either remain on the street and maybe seek an
21 abortion, but, more likely, the woman will stay
22 with that child; because if you look at the
23 studies -- and I have worked with so many women
2730
1 at risk -- they have children not because they
2 want financial incentives. They have children
3 because of the need to have an identity. They
4 want to be needed. They want to be loved, and
5 they don't feel that they have another life
6 other than to raise a child.
7 So what we have to present to
8 young women are options, not punitive options
9 such as this that will put young children at
10 risk. Why -- and we should ask ourselves -- is
11 the New York State Catholic Conference against
12 this bill, and I would like to read two
13 statements. Their rationale is teen mothers are
14 not treated effectively under the current
15 system. Every effort must be made to assist
16 these young women in obtaining the requisite
17 education, training, child care and living
18 arrangements to enable them to escape a cycle of
19 poverty and welfare and to lead productive
20 lives. Forcing young mothers to live with their
21 families without evaluation and careful
22 provision for care and services will likely
23 subject them to abuse, and so what I'm
2731
1 suggesting -- this is again a bill that suggests
2 that the reality is maybe the reality in some of
3 our communities, but is not the profile of the
4 women that we are talking about. It does not
5 meet the realities of the women; and, again,
6 we're only talking about a small fraction of
7 teenage mothers under 18 on welfare. We must
8 look at their realities. Why did they leave
9 home in the first place? Why will they not seek
10 a hearing under the social services agency? Why
11 did they get pregnant in the first place? It's
12 well beyond the fact that they may receive some
13 financial assistance.
14 Until we get to the understanding
15 of why young women get pregnant, this bill is
16 superfluous. It will produce a negative impact
17 on young women and their children, and I hope,
18 Senator Holland, you will reconsider this piece
19 of legislation.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
21 would interrupt the debate to recognize Senator
22 Skelos.
23 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr.
2732
1 President. At this time would you recognize
2 Senator Solomon for purposes of voting?
3 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
5 will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 88. This
7 action shall take effect July 1, 1995.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Solomon, how do you vote?
13 SENATOR SOLOMON: No.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Solomon will be recorded in the negative. The
16 roll call is withdrawn.
17 Chair recognizes Senator
18 DeFrancisco.
19 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: On the
20 bill.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 DeFrancisco on the bill.
23 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: One of the
2733
1 arguments that is raised over and over again
2 about this particular bill, at least it's been
3 this afternoon, is that people want jobs. They
4 don't want to be on social services. They don't
5 want to be dependent on others for their support
6 or for the support of their family. I agree
7 with that argument. That's an excellent
8 argument, and I think that no one intentionally
9 wants to be dependent on anybody else, or nobody
10 wants to have the state take on their
11 responsibilities; or if there are some, it's
12 very few.
13 But in order for people who truly
14 want to have a future, want to have some
15 opportunity to raise a family, to take care of
16 themselves, there has to be jobs out there that
17 are real jobs, jobs that people are proud to go
18 to and that they can make a living wage; and if
19 we haven't seen what's happened in this state
20 over the last several years in the economic
21 climate as relates to other areas, then I think
22 we're not looking very closely.
23 There are a lot of individuals in
2734
1 low paying jobs that are struggling to make ends
2 meet and struggling so they don't have to start
3 a cycle of dependency; and what we have to do, I
4 believe, is make their futures and the futures
5 of those individuals on the border of being
6 pushed into a cycle of dependency to earn a
7 decent living; and the only way to do that that
8 I know of is to provide an economic climate that
9 creates jobs; and the only way to do that is to
10 make this state more responsible in how it
11 spends its money so that there aren't taxes,
12 fees, regulations and all these problems that
13 are devastating to job creation.
14 My area of the state has been
15 losing jobs substantially over time. Every day
16 of the week it seems there is another 100 jobs
17 going elsewhere; and what are we doing for our
18 citizens at that point but creating more despair
19 and more hopelessness and bringing more people
20 into that cycle, and I think we've got to stop,
21 and I think that's what this last election was
22 all about. You got to stop. You got to change
23 the direction. Give that young person an
2735
1 opportunity not to be dependent, to be the best
2 thing that that person can be.
3 Now, even if all of these cuts
4 that have been labeled to be so drastic occur,
5 we will still have the most generous social
6 services program in the entire country. So we
7 are in a situation where we are still
8 understanding the needs of people who truly need
9 help but we're trying to turn the corner, and I
10 think it's extremely important that we do that.
11 Education has been mentioned time
12 and time again as the answer; but if anyone has
13 really studied the budgets over the last five
14 years, five years ago 28 percent of every state
15 dollar was spent on education; 28 percent was
16 spend on social services. Last year, it was a
17 disgrace; 21 percent of all dollars spent on
18 education and 39 percent on social services -
19 39 percent. By the year 2000 if we kept that
20 direction going, half of our budget would be
21 spent on social services.
22 Now, I don't think anybody on
23 either side of the aisle is saying we're not
2736
1 concerned about that mother who is a teen or
2 that pregnant child, and no one is saying that
3 we're not concerned about those individuals
4 living on a fixed income or that need
5 assistance, but we've got to cut the cost of
6 this system that has gone totally out of control
7 for there to be any money for anything else
8 that's needed in this budget, especially
9 education.
10 The thing that I think is
11 extremely important that hasn't really been
12 emphasized is that this cannot be looked at in a
13 vacuum, because the Governor, at least in his
14 budget and I suspect we will do the same thing
15 and have done the same thing, has indicated that
16 we will provide more spendable income for those
17 people trying to get off of the cycle of
18 dependency by raising the earned income tax
19 credit if that becomes part of the budget.
20 Also, the Governor has proposed,
21 and I think it makes a lot of sense, those
22 individuals who are starting to lose some
23 benefits, let them save more, let them keep more
2737
1 if they are working. They don't lose benefits
2 up to $200 of earned income now rather than the
3 20 or 30 that they were allowed before, and 20
4 percent above that is kept; in other words, an
5 incentive to say it's better to be off of the
6 system and we're going to try to help you do
7 that, so I don't think we can look at this in a
8 vacuum.
9 Everyone here wants to make sure
10 that those who truly can not help themselves are
11 provided for, but we can just not continue doing
12 what we're doing. Business as usual is
13 destroying the economic climate of this state,
14 and I think it's essential that we move in this
15 direction; and for that reason and for the
16 reasons I have given, I'm going to support this
17 bill and urge those who may not be sure which
18 way they are going to go to give these thoughts
19 some serious consideration, because I think it's
20 essential for all of those individuals who want
21 opportunity and want the ability to have a good
22 paying job in this state, the direction of the
23 state has to change, and I support this bill.
2738
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
2 recognizes Senator Oppenheimer on the bill.
3 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you,
4 Mr. President. I would just like to speak on
5 the bill. As the chair of the Senate Democratic
6 Task Force on Women's Issues, I feel I want to
7 speak to the effect that these cuts have on
8 women and children; and as a resident of
9 Westchester County, I would like to read for the
10 record some words that were written by the
11 county executive of Westchester County, who as
12 we know is a Republican and, indeed, had run
13 against Governor Cuomo about four years ago.
14 Governor Pataki's war on the poor
15 is also a war on women and children. It's a war
16 against the most invisible amongst us, poor
17 women and children, elderly women and sick
18 women. The fact is that the cuts to home relief
19 households severely affect women, especially
20 older women. As the population ages, it becomes
21 increasingly more female as we all know. Of the
22 57,000 home relief recipients over the age of
23 50, over 31,000 of them are women.
2739
1 This budget is planning to
2 restrict home relief and Medicaid for employable
3 adults to 90 days and make this provision
4 retroactive to June of '94 which would
5 immediately cut 85,000 needy people from the
6 rolls. Now, most people don't realize that 40
7 percent of those needy people are women.
8 The Governor is also proposing to
9 reduce basic aid for AFDC families by 15
10 percent, and the Governor is pushing for a major
11 expansion of workfare. Actually, workfare has
12 been part of the welfare system in New York
13 State for fifteen years now.
14 There are already waiting lists
15 across New York State of women who want to work
16 and indeed have found jobs but are waiting for
17 child care -- a subject I speak a lot about. If
18 this budget is passed, some of those placements
19 may be used for workfare instead of allowing
20 these women to access these real jobs that they
21 have won but are unable to take because they do
22 not have child care. Child care is where we
23 should be putting our emphasis.
2740
1 The two biggest obstacles to
2 women getting off welfare is the lack of child
3 care and the lack of jobs. The overwhelming
4 majority of welfare recipients, however, are
5 single mothers with children. That's 87 percent
6 of our welfare recipients, and they live in
7 pretty dismal circumstances. Statewide, one in
8 five of our children in this state live in
9 poverty. Nearly half of all people fed by food
10 pantries are children. Two-thirds of the adults
11 who utilize our food pantries are women. We are
12 talking about serious, serious impacts to women
13 and children and also to another topic that I
14 have brought to this floor often, the victims of
15 domestic violence.
16 Battered women fleeing their
17 abusers will be classified as home relief
18 recipients. This budget destroys the little
19 support that exists for battered women. The
20 three-month limit ensures that women who lose
21 their home relief have no choice but to return
22 for financial support to that batterer. This
23 reverses all the moves that we have tried to
2741
1 make in the last year to assist the battered
2 woman.
3 Now, I would like to speak just
4 for a moment on the plight in Westchester; and,
5 here, I would like to just take a few quotes out
6 of a letter that was written to George Pataki by
7 the county executive of Westchester County,
8 Andrew O'Rourke. This was written in early
9 March. Much has been said about the great
10 success in Westchester County of some workfare
11 programs. I would like to point out another
12 area where this will be very damaging.
13 "Certain proposals in the
14 executive budget concern us," and this is a
15 quote from Andrew O'Rourke's letter, "because
16 they may well have the unintended consequence of
17 producing new costs in the area of homeless
18 services. Our analysis shows that they may do
19 so to a degree that will more than offset the
20 projected savings they are designed to produce."
21 Now, I have spoken on this floor
22 many times about the size of the homeless
23 population in Westchester County, which per
2742
1 capita is the highest in our state, and here is
2 our county executive supporting that contention
3 as well as talking about what these cuts will
4 mean to our county.
5 I will go back to quoting him on
6 rent supplementation, "Specifically, I am
7 referring to the planned elimination of
8 supplemental rent payments currently made to
9 recipients under the Jiggets, Strong and Love
10 cases." The Love case is the one that affects
11 Westchester County. "In Westchester, we have
12 452 households currently receiving monthly rent
13 supplements averaging $300 as the result of the
14 Love litigation. However, it is nearly certain
15 that all of these families are likely to become
16 homeless soon after the supplement is
17 eliminated. For each family of three that
18 becomes homeless, there is an additional monthly
19 cost of about $3400 that is beyond the benefits
20 provided to a family were they living in
21 permanent housing."
22 Another area that's mentioned is
23 the basic grant reduction of 15 percent, and
2743
1 this is another unintended cost increase as seen
2 by the county executive in Westchester, and I'll
3 quote him here. "In Westchester County, 64
4 percent of families living in private
5 unsubsidized housing are paying rent above the
6 maximum shelter allowance. In most cases, these
7 families are using a portion of their basic
8 grant to supplement the shelter allowance.
9 Reducing the basic grant by any amount will only
10 compound the difficult choice these families
11 already face between rent on the one hand and
12 food, clothing and utility expenses on the
13 other. Our greatest concern is that for some of
14 these families given Westchester's limited
15 market in low-cost rental housing homelessness
16 will result."
17 And I will give just one example
18 and then I think I will, yes, conclude.
19 Should only five percent of the
20 families in private, unsubsidized housing pay
21 more than the maximum shelter allowance for rent
22 -- that would be 281 households -- should they
23 become homeless, the county and state shares of
2744
1 the additional cost would be $2.9 million each
2 -- each family. Again, there are currently no
3 resources to house this number of newly homeless
4 families in Westchester other than commercial
5 hotels and motels; and, as you know, we have
6 been making good progress in Westchester County
7 bringing our homeless families back into our
8 county from other counties because there was
9 opposition raised in other counties to us
10 housing our homeless outside our county.
11 This budget, this proposed
12 change, will cause dire, dire consequences in
13 Westchester County, and we have to factor that
14 in. I'm sure it is not only in Westchester
15 county.
16 Thank you.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
18 recognizes Senator Skelos.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr.
20 President. I just wanted to remind my
21 colleagues that the debate began at 3:15, and
22 it's up to -- if a member wishes, at 5:15 there
23 could be a motion to close debate at that time.
2745
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
2 would also recognize the fact that there have
3 been six Senators who have designated to the
4 chair that they wish to be recognized to speak
5 on the bill.
6 Next Senator is Senator
7 Montgomery.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you,
9 Mr. President. I would like to ask if Senator
10 Holland would yield for a couple of questions?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Holland, would you yield to Senator Montgomery?
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 yields.
16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator
17 Holland, I'm sorry we have such time
18 constraints. I would like to ask you a lot of
19 questions, but I will consider my other
20 colleagues. I want to just ask if you have any
21 idea about the job-readiness of the AFDC/HR
22 participants at this point in time? Is there
23 any indication from either the state or the
2746
1 city, the locality, as to what percentage and
2 based on their own definition of job readiness?
3 SENATOR HOLLAND: On the home
4 relief side, we're only talking about the
5 employable people, people who are able to work,
6 single employable people.
7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I'm trying
8 to get some sense of what percent that is.
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: What
10 percentage?
11 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes.
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: In the home
13 relief area about 35 to 40 percent of the home
14 relief people.
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: And the AFDC
16 is it about the same? Is it more or less?
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: The AFDC people
18 can stay on the rolls. It's the home relief
19 that we're giving the 60-day requirement to.
20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: But you do
21 have a percentage of AFDC that are employable?
22 They may have children that are in school or out
23 of the house and you are assuming that they are
2747
1 also employable?
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, but we are
3 not forcing them out.
4 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: That's still
5 voluntary.
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. Home
7 relief is a different story.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right.
9 Thank you.
10 Senator Holland, if you would
11 continue to yield. At one part of the
12 legislation that refers to employment, you
13 indicate or the bill says that we will require
14 not-for-profit entities and other entities that
15 contract with the state, not-for-profit concerns
16 that contract with the state would be required
17 to accept -
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Oh, yes. Yes.
19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Are you
20 aware that there is legislation to require
21 similarly that any for-profit corporation that
22 contracts with the state should accept a
23 percentage of welfare recipients?
2748
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: I did not know.
2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: There is
3 legislation. Would you be interested in
4 sponsoring that, Senator Holland? Is that
5 something you would like to see happen?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: I would be
7 interested in looking at it.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Pardon me?
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: I would be
10 interested in looking at it.
11 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: There is
12 legislation. I can certainly get that to you.
13 It would help us.
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Okay.
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I would
16 certainly like to see that kind of legislation.
17 I am sure that you would also.
18 Now, Senator Holland -
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Holland, would you continue to yield?
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: -- would you
23 continue to yield?
2749
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 yields, Senator Montgomery.
3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I'm not
4 clear. I was trying to analyze this for myself,
5 but I couldn't quite figure out how we are
6 treating now the whole issue of training. I see
7 that you have a section in here that deals with
8 training, the institutions that you would accept
9 as training. Under what circumstances would an
10 AFDC recipient, for instance, be eligible to
11 select an institution of higher education as an
12 option? And would that person in addition to
13 being enrolled in a college, for instance, would
14 that person also have to meet the requirements
15 for the jobs, for the work, the work
16 requirements?
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: There are no
18 changes in this bill for AFDC recipients
19 training at all.
20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: For work
21 requirements?
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: No. Mostly
23 home relief, Senator.
2750
1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: That was not
2 my understanding, Senator. But, all right. Let
3 me just pursue. So that, it is your assumption
4 that any person -- because there is one section
5 in the legislation that speaks to seeking a
6 waiver for AFDC.
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm sorry,
8 Senator, I'm listening to somebody else. Let me
9 go back to your last question. The training
10 programs that are in existence go on. They are
11 not deleted in any way, shape or form.
12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Excuse me.
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: The last
14 question -
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes.
16 SENATOR HOLLAND: -- training for
17 AFDC, the training programs that are in
18 existence go on. There is no deletion of those
19 training programs, if that answers your
20 question.
21 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: The second
22 part to the question is, would those
23 participants, those people who are participating
2751
1 in a training program, for instance, they are
2 enrolled in a community college or a two-year
3 college, et cetera, are they now also going to
4 be required to meet the standards in here that
5 are set for workfare? You have a workfare
6 section that seems to cover those people.
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So in other
9 words, they can be in training but they also
10 still have to have at least five face to face
11 contacts -
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: -- with five
14 different employers every week.
15 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Else they
17 will be cutoff.
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. Thank
20 you for that clarification. Just one last
21 question.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Holland, do you continue to yield?
2752
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 continues to yield.
4 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: If you will
5 continue to yield. The bill speaks to fraud
6 control, and I know you have been working on
7 this issue a long time. I am certainly very
8 interested in it.
9 Providers. How does it cover
10 providers, you know, stores that are involved in
11 this kind of fraud, in collusion with a
12 participant, a welfare recipient, you know, any
13 provider that also must apparently have some
14 role in this activity in order for it to take
15 place?
16 SENATOR HOLLAND: A
17 recommendation of the District Attorney of New
18 York County, Morgenthau, Food Stamp Fraud Act
19 raises the penalties for illegal food stamp
20 transactions and factors into the penalties the
21 values of such transactions which would
22 definitely have impact on store owners who
23 illegally deal in food stamps.
2753
1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: And any
2 other provider that participates in collusion
3 with a participant?
4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So the
6 penalties fall equally on providers and
7 recipients.
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes. Depending
9 upon the value.
10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. Thank
11 you, Senator Holland.
12 Mr. President. I would like to
13 speak briefly to the bill.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Montgomery on the bill.
16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you.
17 Mr. President, as you know, I'm opposed to many
18 of the provisions in this bill, but mainly
19 because I agree on one level with Senator
20 Holland that work and the opportunity to work is
21 preferable to living in a state of dependence,
22 so that is my basic philosophy, and I am happy
23 that we want to reform this system, which I
2754
1 agree fosters dependence.
2 But, unfortunately, the direction
3 in which we're going does not lead to
4 independence, it seems to me, because while
5 we're talking about sending people out to find
6 -- to seek employment, we have not been able to
7 address the issue that you yourself have raised,
8 Senator Holland. Mr. President. Senator
9 Holland has raised this issue himself, that we
10 have lost -- we have lost over a half million
11 jobs in the last ten years; and, in particular,
12 we have lost those jobs in the areas where
13 people that we're talking about here would be
14 very likely to be able to work and earn a fair
15 income. So we have lost those job
16 opportunities. We have not been able to replace
17 them; and, hopefully, we will. Hopefully, we
18 are moving in that direction, but I certainly
19 have not heard it, and we certainly have not
20 spoken about that before we talk about throwing
21 people off of welfare because they can't find a
22 job in two months.
23 And at the same time, this budget
2755
1 that we are putting out while we don't have the
2 job market, we haven't created it, we're not
3 moving in that direction, we are eliminating all
4 of the avenues to allow people an opportunity to
5 get themselves prepared for other kinds of jobs,
6 the jobs in the service sector, where we are
7 moving more to service sector jobs but we are
8 not allowing people to prepare themselves. For
9 instance, we want to punish the children,
10 teenagers and their mothers, if they miss school
11 because we say we want to encourage them to stay
12 in school, but for what purpose?
13 And we are cutting out SEEK. We
14 are cutting out college Discovery. We are
15 cutting out HEOP. We are cutting out EOP. The
16 Liberty Scholarship is gone. The Liberty
17 Partnership has been possibly eliminated because
18 it's been block granted, I understand, and cut
19 by 60 percent. I don't see -- I don't see the
20 avenue for shifting from dependence to
21 independence. I don't see the invitation and
22 the support from us to people that we're saying,
23 "If you don't find a job, you will be cut off
2756
1 in 60 days," but we are not offering any other
2 opportunity.
3 So it sounds like this
4 legislation offers people not hope but death.
5 Now, I know that's a very strong way of putting
6 it, Senator Holland, and I had hoped that we
7 would have been able to debate this and discuss
8 it and come to some agreement between both
9 houses, both sides of the aisle, and what have
10 you, because I think we all want ultimately the
11 same thing. But this legislation is essentially
12 punishing people for being poor, and that
13 certainly I don't want. I think a lot of us in
14 this room don't want, but that's what it does.
15 And I really don't believe that
16 the people in the State of New York are prepared
17 to agree that in order to reach this goal of
18 having people become independent that we will
19 punish them, cut their legs off, throw their
20 children away, and give up, throw up our hands
21 and say, "There is nothing more that we can do
22 because they couldn't find a job that didn't
23 exist and we were not in a position to create
2757
1 the job, and so that's it. We're finished.
2 We've done what we're supposed to do."
3 I don't think the people in the
4 State of New York are prepared to do that. I
5 think this sends the wrong message to everybody
6 even people who want to see welfare reform
7 happen. I think that this is the wrong way to
8 do it, and the public is going to see through
9 this fraud soon enough.
10 I'm against this. I would vote
11 no, Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair
13 would interrupt the debate at this time for
14 recognizing Senator Skelos.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: With the consent
16 of the Minority, I ask that the last section be
17 read for several members to vote at this time.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
19 will read the last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 88. This
21 act shall take effect July 1.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
23 roll.
2758
1 (The Secretary called the roll.)
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you
3 recognize Senator Hoblock.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Hoblock, how do you vote?
6 SENATOR HOBLOCK: In the
7 affirmative.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Hoblock in the affirmative.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you
11 recognize Senator Santiago.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Santiago, how do you vote?
14 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you
17 recognize Senator Gonzalez.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Gonzalez, how do you vote?
20 SENATOR GONZALEZ: In the
21 negative.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Gonzalez in the negative.
2759
1 Roll call is withdrawn. Debate
2 will continue. Chair would recognize Senator
3 Markowitz.
4 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Thank you
5 very much, Mr. President.
6 Senator Holland, the words coming
7 from you and some of your colleagues not only
8 here in New York State but certainly in
9 Washington, government, in my opinion, that's
10 turning its back on those greatest in need, and
11 this really defines to me the differences, and
12 that is that I think we judge a society by the
13 compassion that it provides for those in need.
14 And I believe that the steps
15 we're about to take this afternoon -- and I'm
16 sure that you and your colleagues have a lot
17 more in store both here in the state and in
18 Washington -- concern me greatly.
19 You know, I remember growing up
20 in the '50s and certainly most of us can
21 remember "Ozzie and Harriet," "Leave It To
22 Beaver," "Father Knows Best" among other shows.
23 That was the viewpoint of a lot of Americans
2760
1 about their society, although people of color
2 would argue that the 1950s were not the greatest
3 days in their lives, believe me, nor -- nor was
4 it an ideal life for those of us like me,
5 Senator Holland, that grew up on welfare and on
6 Social Security with my mother living in public
7 housing.
8 Forgive me if I'm a tax and
9 spender. Tax from those who can afford it, or
10 should afford it, because we are our brother's
11 keeper, and spend for those that genuinely need
12 it. Yes, I will believe that from the day I was
13 born until the day the Lord calls me.
14 And I mean that, because I am a
15 product, and my family, of the benevolence, of
16 the care, and of the compassion. Although it
17 wasn't dramatic in those days, at least society
18 gave a helping hand.
19 Now, it is true that in today's
20 society we have to take steps to cut back on
21 abuse. Democrats and Republicans agree alike,
22 we have to cut back on abuse. But life in the
23 1990s, Senator Holland, is not life in the 1950s
2761
1 and '40s and '60s, when you were a younger man
2 and certainly when I was a younger man. Believe
3 me, it's nothing like that at all.
4 I think a visit into Senator
5 Montgomery's area, Senator Waldon's, my area,
6 even the east side of Manhattan, would begin to
7 show you a dramatic difference in lifestyles.
8 The society has changed dramatically. Not
9 everyone, Senator Holland, is successful or has
10 the tools to be successful or was given the
11 blessings, were given the blessings by the
12 proper direction of society, family, to strive
13 and succeed.
14 The problem here is that most of
15 us are living in terms of our income
16 significantly above the people we serve in the
17 state in general. How can any of you be
18 sensitive to those that don't have when most of
19 us eat in some of the fanciest restaurants that
20 Albany has, and when we're not here we eat in
21 the fanciest restaurants in whatever communities
22 we live in, in this state? Some of you have
23 beautiful summer homes. How can you possibly
2762
1 relate to the deprivation and despair that too
2 many people in our society have? And you think
3 that by taking away monies and assistance will
4 help them break out of a cycle of dependency and
5 poverty, and suddenly they'll pick themselves up
6 by their shoes and tighten their boots, make
7 their bed the right way and become all of the
8 successes that you and I would want to see in
9 this society? How I wish, Senator Holland, we
10 could do that. How I wish. How I wish.
11 But the reality is it's not about
12 to happen. And so what does a compassionate
13 society do? In my opinion, rather than talk
14 about decreasing services, we ought to be
15 intensifying services for those genuinely in
16 need, to provide the kind of day care services
17 and job training, to provide the kind of
18 assistance that make people independent, not by
19 throwing them off of assistance but by giving
20 them a helping hand.
21 One other thing, Senator, the
22 thing I fear most and you don't see it yet where
23 you live, the gap between the haves and the
2763
1 have-nots is growing, Senator. It's growing.
2 It's not decreasing. It's widening. Let me
3 just tell you, not everyone is as level-headed
4 as you are here, or any of our colleagues here.
5 When that gap, when a society's gap between the
6 haves and have-nots continues to widen, then
7 more and more people in our society say, "Hey,
8 this is not my game and, therefore, I don't have
9 to play by the rules of this game."
10 And I hope and pray, Senator
11 Holland, that the steps that you are about to
12 take this afternoon, this Senate, and what's
13 happening in Washington, as well, will not bring
14 my greatest fear of real problems even more
15 dramatic than our society has experienced over
16 the last number of years.
17 Now, I applaud any efforts to cut
18 back on welfare fraud. Who disagrees here? No
19 one should receive public assistance that are
20 lying, thieving, abusing, for sure, and I agree
21 that we should take every step to make sure that
22 public assistance goes into the hands of those
23 that truly need it. No one disagrees here.
2764
1 But as a society, sir, I got to
2 tell you something. Someone who is making
3 $250,000 a year or 300,000, I have crocodile
4 tears, Senator. We have an obligation in this
5 society for one another. I'm sorry. Maybe this
6 is where we disagree, but I believe we have an
7 obligation in society to help those greatest in
8 need in this society. Only by uplifting and
9 providing for those in greatest need will our
10 lives become even better. I really believe
11 that, Senator, and I'm very concerned that the
12 step we're about to take this afternoon leads us
13 down to a road that I shudder to think. I pray
14 not my greatest fears to be realized in society.
15 I'm certainly not going to be
16 supporting this bill. Of course, I will be
17 opposed to it. But, Senator, I hope if -- I
18 know that a good number of my colleagues that
19 are Republicans are not necessarily insensitive
20 people or uncaring people. I accept that. I
21 accept that, even though I know that business
22 and business interests are very important to
23 you; nonetheless, there has to be a way that
2765
1 business interests and the needs of the public
2 that is in need -- there has to be a marriage of
3 that. There has to be a way that we can
4 co-exist in this society together and in
5 harmony.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
7 recognizes Senator Dollinger.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
9 President. I will be very brief. I was among
10 the homeless last night, so I'm tired, and my
11 colleagues have spoken eloquently about the
12 problems that these cuts create.
13 I will just make three quick
14 comments. One, Senator DeFrancisco talked about
15 the rising cost of social services. He is
16 correct. Those costs have gone up
17 significantly. The biggest cost, of course,
18 that has gone up is the one that isn't even
19 addressed here, and that's long-term care for
20 our elderly population. That is the one that's
21 keeping double-digit increases that's driving
22 significant social service dollars not only out
23 of our state coffers but out of our local
2766
1 governments, out of our property taxes. But it
2 seems to me that's the kind of mythology that we
3 often play with. It sounds very fancy to say
4 only 20 percent of our budget goes to education
5 and 37 percent now goes to social services, but
6 what we don't do is identify what that 37
7 percent is, and how much of it goes to the
8 elderly that we all agree we want to help.
9 I am also struck, I guess, by the
10 workfare proposal which talks about requiring
11 AFDC recipients and HR recipients to go to
12 workfare to try to get a job. I think that's
13 applaudable. I think what's interesting is that
14 my understanding is that the savings that come
15 out of this bill will be used for
16 administration, which is appropriate, and also
17 to increase the emergency shelter allowance, so
18 that there are more shelters. Why? Because we
19 know that when we cut HR recipients off after
20 two months, we know that if we require workfare,
21 we're going to lose people in the system. They
22 are simply going to become homeless. They'll
23 simply be living in Patakiville like I did last
2767
1 night.
2 What's the last thing that
3 bothers me most about this; and, Senator
4 Holland, I actually applaud your looking into
5 this issue, and I think that the Majority in
6 this house has done a number of interesting
7 things in the last four or five budgets that
8 have tried to cure the problem with chronic
9 welfare dependency. There are good things
10 happening, the Jobs First Program. There are
11 good things that this Majority, this house can
12 take credit for, because I think it's
13 demonstrated the kind of sensitive, caring
14 compassionate, but firm, approach that's
15 necessary to cure this problem, but it doesn't
16 happen overnight.
17 The problem I have, and it's best
18 epitomized by the proposal that minors live at
19 home. I know we had this debate. I asked a
20 number of questions last time. What troubles me
21 most about it is that what this will do is the
22 one thing that I thought the Majority did not
23 want to do, which is, this will bring government
2768
1 into every single AFDC household in this state,
2 because the very first thing that will happen is
3 someone will say, "My father doesn't want me to
4 live there. I don't have to go back." And the
5 next thing that the social service department
6 will say is, "Get a letter from your father or
7 your mother that says they don't want you back,"
8 and somebody is going to forge that. Some
9 parent is going to say, "Sure, I will take them
10 back if you give me their benefit," and we're
11 going to put tremendous stresses on families,
12 and some poor Family Court judge or some even
13 poorer social service hearing officer is going
14 to have to decide whether this family really
15 wants the child back in the home. What happens
16 if it's just one parent? The father says, "Yes,
17 I want them back," but the mother says, "No, no,
18 no, I don't want my daughter back," or "I don't
19 want my son back." What's the hearing officer
20 to do? He's now got one parent saying one
21 thing, one parent saying another. Is some
22 social service hearing officer going to sit down
23 and say, "I'm the Solomon"? "I can cut this
2769
1 family in half. I will have the child come home
2 the days that the father is home but not the
3 days that the mother is home." That's what
4 we're talking about if we try to enforce this
5 kind of system.
6 I hate to say it, but the vision
7 that drives this bill, it seems to me, is
8 inconsistent with the population we're trying to
9 serve. Senator Markowitz, Senator Montgomery,
10 Senator Abate, people who -- Senator Espada who
11 spoke eloquently on this bill, Senator Waldon,
12 represent people, many people, who need AFDC
13 payments; yet their voice says, "Don't do
14 this." Don't do it because it's not the right
15 thing to do.
16 Let's take the longer path, the
17 harder path of the Jobs First Program and the
18 programs that we've got underway that are
19 working. Do it that way. Don't do it in this
20 draconian approach. Listen to the people who
21 represent significant numbers of people on AFDC,
22 as I do in the city of Rochester, and every
23 voice I get from the population I was elected to
2770
1 serve is, "This is the wrong way to do it." It
2 may fit everybody's political agenda, but it
3 won't fit the people agenda in this state.
4 We're doing a number of good
5 things. Let's continue to do those. Let's
6 forget trying to create a family police
7 department so that we can enforce workfare and
8 learnfare and homefare and requiring that the
9 government get involved in everybody's family to
10 try to keep it together. Let's figure out a
11 more compassionate system that achieves that
12 goal without intruding government into
13 everyone's lives. Seems to me that should be
14 something we can all agree on.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
16 recognizes Senator Skelos.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
18 I believe on the list we have Senator Marchi and
19 then Senator Jones. In consultation with
20 Senator Paterson, I believe they will be the
21 last two speakers, and then there will be a slow
22 roll call, I understand; and then perhaps at
23 that time if somebody wants to explain their
2771
1 vote, they can, because we're right about at
2 that two-hour limit.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
4 recognizes Senator Marchi on the bill.
5 SENATOR MARCHI: Thank you, Mr.
6 President. My expectations on the bill that
7 will finally be or the legislation that will be
8 finally enacted, or the budget that's going to
9 be finally enacted, will not assume the form
10 that it was presented but, in great part, it
11 represents a very strong effort on the part of
12 the Governor and on the part of many people, I
13 think, to face certain harsh realities on terms
14 that will not leave New York behind any other
15 state in the union in terms of a disposition and
16 a commitment to meeting human need.
17 I think this is implicit. I
18 believe that the budget that we pass will not be
19 inconsistent with what I'm saying here now, but
20 that will be the case, in my estimation.
21 But there are changes taking
22 place. Go back to the '30s when we had
23 tremendous depression, and there were great
2772
1 pessimistic estimates made of the American
2 people and their ability to produce and their
3 work ethic. We had 10 million unemployed going
4 into World War II, with about 50 million
5 employable people, which was a very high
6 percentage. If we were to translate it now -- I
7 mean we're nowheres near that.
8 Nevertheless, we fought a war
9 around the world, and we were responsible for
10 the logistical miracle that America
11 represented. We outproduced all the other
12 nations of the world combined in securing
13 victory and rehabilitating the world after the
14 war was over with the Marshall Plan and the
15 other instrumentalities that restored, at least
16 in the free world, a higher standard of living.
17 What are we faced with now? I'm
18 not sure about Washington and what their
19 intentions are. Some of you may be enchanted
20 with Democratic rule down in Washington. Others
21 will say that it's the Republicans. I think the
22 jury is still out. Frankly, when it gets down
23 to our level, we see that although they control
2773
1 immigration, for instance, they will not accept
2 the responsibility for caring for the people
3 that may need help, may need assistance, and
4 this falls very heavily on those states that
5 have demonstrated -- and I make no apologies for
6 it. I think it's to our credit that we have
7 been sensitive to human need. But there is no
8 effort to meet us in that struggle, Titanic
9 struggle so that even legal immigrants don't
10 receive any assistance from the federal
11 government for the first three years of their
12 stay.
13 We go on to the invidious
14 comparisons that are taking place within the
15 states. We don't have a national view, and this
16 is a new, I think, an added factor, that we can
17 throw into this equation because many of the
18 things that have been said here today on both
19 sides of the aisle are not inconsistent, but we
20 live in a country where there are 50
21 jurisdictions. Maybe three have home relief.
22 The other 47 don't.
23 I read today in the Orange
2774
1 County, California, experience with I guess
2 derivative suits and unwise investments, where
3 Avery Willis, an executive with Scott Worldwide
4 Paper Company said, "Cuts in social services
5 might offer a benefit in disguise in persuading
6 the counties growing number of poor people to
7 move." "That's a crude way to talk about it,
8 but it's real," Mr. Willis said, "Let them go
9 live in New York." Now we don't have a national
10 view of human need. We have Mr. Willis telling
11 us, "move to New York".
12 It is not a discredit on our part
13 that we have been sensitive to that appeal.
14 Several years ago, I read about some nuns in New
15 Jersey who paid the way to people who were in
16 need of help, medical assistance, and they paid
17 their way into New York because New York would
18 take care of them. We simply have to come to
19 grips with reality. We have to ease the harsher
20 impacts that appear obvious to many of us; but
21 at the same time, there is an urgent need that
22 we recognize the problem for the dimensions that
23 it has. What is going to happen with the rising
2775
1 -- you know, I'm one of them -- rising age
2 median, median age in the United States, broad
3 phalanxes of people going into the 70s and the
4 80s, 90s, all needing assistance? Many of them
5 will need assistance desperately.
6 We have to -- we have to have a
7 national view. We have to have a more common
8 concept of human dignity and our willingness and
9 commitment to meet that. I think what the
10 Governor is attempting to do here is to husband
11 our resources with some imagination; and with
12 the help of the legislative process, I think
13 that we will produce an orientation that will be
14 healthful, and I think that process is going to
15 take place.
16 What we are doing in evolving a
17 budget, we are evolving a document that is the
18 expression of the Legislature and the Executive;
19 and I think the Governor has taken that very
20 much to heart. I believe that he is not
21 insensitive to these things. These things have
22 to be brought out. The Assembly -- the Assembly
23 should be passing some legislation if they
2776
1 represent some of the views that have been
2 expressed here today. Let's have it all out.
3 Let's put it all out on the table so that we can
4 reason intelligently.
5 I think that the Majority -- and
6 I hope that some of you may feel the same way
7 because you don't govern by brut force in
8 saying, "We won and you lost." We all have to
9 win, and we all have to be able to support a
10 policy that finally emerges. Even the Court of
11 Appeals, Judge Kaye, the presiding justice in
12 the Court of Appeals, in writing a unanimous
13 decision in the Lovelace case, and this is in
14 response to Senator Waldon's plea, which I was
15 certainly sensitive to. There's been a change
16 even in the Court of Appeals. They say that if
17 you are going to challenge a legislative act as
18 being unreasonable, then you must prove beyond a
19 reasonable doubt that it's unreasonable. Now,
20 that's -- you know, you are almost treating it
21 as we treat crimes. This is pretty strong
22 medicine that the Court of Appeals has arrived
23 at, but it is an indication of the circumstances
2777
1 in which we live in.
2 So I think that -- don't feel
3 anybody who has gotten up and said things -
4 because there isn't anyone who didn't stand up
5 and say things that didn't strike a responsive
6 cord with me, and I think that is a shared
7 feeling, but this is a new orientation which I
8 hope, and which I believe will be the case, will
9 still leave us as the state that's most
10 sensitive to the human condition. We will do it
11 with greater prudence with the desire and the
12 stimulus that we hope will produce a more
13 wholesome attitude, and I don't want to draw
14 invidious comparisons about the person who's
15 making 250,000. I'm not making it. I don't
16 think very many of us are making it, but we also
17 need an entrepreneurial atmosphere that will add
18 to our jobs, add to the economic -- and will
19 give a stimulus to the economic engine that we
20 have and provide the jobs so that there will be
21 an abundance, there will be an abundance upon
22 which we can make more enlightened, more
23 compassionate decisions.
2778
1 But we can't do it at the rate
2 and the pace that we are going now. If we have
3 40 percent of the unemployment and all the other
4 states are beginning to rise and they say, "Send
5 them to New York if we have a problem," we don't
6 want to accept that. We don't want to accept
7 Washington telling us that they are not going to
8 share some of the burden that we are carrying so
9 manfully -- or personally. How do I say that
10 politically correct? We can't do that.
11 And states like Florida, states
12 like California, they are in the same boat.
13 They are in the same boat. So that let's not be
14 too cruel with each other. Let's be enlightened
15 and understand the circumstances in which we
16 live, and I feel that -- I feel that the step
17 that is being taken today in the composite of
18 companion effort, because we seem to be the only
19 ones that are legislating. I don't hear of any
20 action going on down the hall. Maybe there is.
21 But the last time I checked, there wasn't any.
22 I believe that we will fashion a document that
23 will preserve our preeminence in terms of a
2779
1 desire to meet human need and at the same time
2 begin to turn this picture around, begin to turn
3 this picture around, so that we create the
4 premises for a more abundant society.
5 And for these reasons, I'm going
6 to vote yes, Mr. President, and we will come by
7 this issue again, I'm sure, and I believe that
8 out of all of this a growing consensus will grow
9 that will benefit this state.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
11 recognizes Senator Jones to close debate.
12 SENATOR JONES: Well, I would
13 leave that to my leader. But I do have a
14 question.
15 I would like to just focus for a
16 second on the learnfare piece, because, as you
17 know my background, that's probably the piece
18 I'm most interested in. I myself had a bill
19 last year because I do know there is a problem
20 in the system and, of course, if I find the
21 solution, it's not acceptable; but, last year,
22 it came to my attention that we had over 200
23 children in Rochester schools who were receiving
2780
1 public assistance, not attending school except
2 once in 21 days, signing up so that the school
3 was verifying they were there, then leaving and
4 collecting benefits. I put in a bill to try to
5 match that up because education is important to
6 me, and you either are getting one or you're
7 working. To me, that seems simple.
8 But let me just ask Senator
9 Holland a question about his learnfare piece
10 that's in here that has been brought to my
11 attention. Would you yield for a question,
12 Senator, through you?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Holland, do you yield to Senator Jones?
15 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, ma'am.
16 Yes.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 yields.
19 SENATOR JONES: I've been
20 speaking to some social workers about this
21 issue, how we get the children in school and the
22 issue of taking money away from the parents.
23 Would it be correct to say -- first of all,
2781
1 Senator, you are familiar with what a PINS
2 petition is?
3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
4 SENATOR JONES: Would it be
5 correct to say that if I'm the user of this
6 system -- and I believe every one of us sitting
7 here, this is who we want to get at, the user,
8 the person who really doesn't care about the
9 issue or the poverty, the user. Would it be
10 correct to say if I were one of these people and
11 I have a child who doesn't go to school, all I
12 have to do is go get a PINS petition and my
13 money is fine, and then the court or somebody
14 else will take over the problem of the child?
15 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's probably
16 true. Is that true?
17 It may be true, but they don't
18 think it's that easy to get a PINS petition.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Does
20 Senator continue to yield?
21 Senator continues to yield.
22 SENATOR JONES: I have been told
23 by the social workers in our community that this
2782
1 could very well be an issue. In fact, it's
2 becoming too easy to get a PINS petition. So I
3 guess what I would ask you, Senator, would you
4 be willing to take a look at that?
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Sure.
6 SENATOR JONES: Because if your
7 intent is in school and a penalty there, then I
8 would hate to see a loophole for those who might
9 want to use that.
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Absolutely.
11 SENATOR JONES: Okay. Then on
12 the bill.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Jones on the bill.
15 SENATOR JONES: I guess Senator
16 Marchi, probably, as he does very often always
17 crystallizes things for me in my own mind. I
18 really believe that all of us sitting here
19 clearly have a heart and we all have a brain.
20 Unfortunately, at times, politics seems to
21 prevent us from using one or sometimes both. I
22 would like to tell you what I think of this
23 whole bill.
2783
1 I supported many of the things,
2 and I continue to support some of the things
3 that are in this bill, but I would just
4 challenge us to look at some other issues that I
5 think are within this that we could fix and I
6 don't see this bill addressing.
7 For instance, job training. It's
8 ridiculous to say, "Go to work," if you're not
9 going to give somebody job training. But do you
10 know what we're doing with job training? And I
11 spent a lot of time looking at this. In the
12 city of Rochester, we put 100 people, let's say,
13 in a program to become a policeman. We tell
14 them, "Sign up here and you are all going to be
15 a policeman." Guess what? They're not going to
16 be a policeman because there aren't jobs to be a
17 policeman. We've got all kinds of programs out
18 there. Data processing, that's real popular
19 today. If you learn to use a computer, you're
20 all set. We're deluding people with many of
21 these training programs. It's not true.
22 They're not going to get a job.
23 I know people that are unemployed
2784
1 who have signed up for $2,000 programs that
2 we're paying for in data processing, who were
3 engineers, and are told, "There aren't any
4 jobs." But they did it.
5 So I would challenge you. Let's
6 start looking at these job training programs to
7 be sure that there are jobs out there, and that
8 there is a pot of gold at the end of this
9 rainbow we're telling people.
10 And then the drug treatment, all
11 of us want people to be cured of drugs today.
12 Certainly that's a goal. That's a goal that
13 would solve many of the problems that we're
14 trying to deal with in this bill. But do you
15 know what I'm told about that. We have people
16 seven, eight times joining drug treatment
17 programs purely to continue on the home relief,
18 and, out there, we have serious people who
19 desperately want to get cured of a drug
20 addiction and can't get in the programs. I
21 hope, Senator, there is a way to find these
22 people and deal with them because I think they
23 are part of the issue out there.
2785
1 I'm thrilled with your issue with
2 the child support. Bearing children takes two,
3 and for some reason today in society we keep
4 ignoring that, but I'm one of those people that
5 thank God for three jobs kept me from having to
6 collect welfare. But let me tell you, I'm very
7 supportive of whatever you have to do to find
8 the man responsible and see that he takes his
9 responsibility if he's not willing to.
10 The fraud in the system, I was
11 working with our own district attorney on this
12 issue and I would have loved to work with
13 Senator Holland, but we keep working in a vacuum
14 around here, and sometimes we don't even know
15 what each other is doing. But I think that's an
16 excellent -- we definitely have to get those
17 people, and I've heard everybody say that. I've
18 heard the people on this side of the aisle say
19 it and I've heard you say it.
20 And then I would challenge you to
21 find the good things, and let's capitalize on
22 them. We have always made welfare an all-or
23 nothing system. In Rochester, we have this CAT
2786
1 program that has had excellent results, where we
2 say to a woman, "You got to go to work, but
3 we'll still help you with a piece of the day
4 care; we'll still help you with the health
5 care," which an entry level job is not going to
6 give her, and it works. We do those pieces
7 until they get to the point where they can
8 work. But we've always made it, "We'll give you
9 everything or we'll give you nothing." Well,
10 then, what is the point? Where is the incentive
11 to go to work? We're not providing it.
12 I went and visited another group
13 in Rochester called Service Corps, where they
14 were having people come in, many of them people
15 that had been in prison. They were paying them
16 $85 a week or they had to be in training. They
17 could get -- but do you know what? They were
18 working. They were painting public buildings.
19 This winter and last winter, when we had a bad
20 one, they went out and shoveled every single
21 fire hydrant in the city of Rochester to earn
22 that money, and they took pride in what they
23 were doing. That's working.
2787
1 So I guess rather than a
2 punishment approach, I would really rather we
3 look at some of these good things, fix some of
4 the well meaning things that we put in there
5 that haven't worked, and let's remove those, and
6 let's try to look at the good things.
7 I will support you in some of the
8 things you are thinking of because I think, as
9 Senator Marchi said, we all know this will not
10 become the law, what we are looking at today. I
11 certainly support the concept, and I would love
12 the opportunity, you know, to work with some of
13 you on fixing some of these things, because if
14 we don't fix them, then the people you heard
15 Senator Markowitz talk about and Senator
16 Montgomery, those are the people that are going
17 to get hurt if we are not careful, and I really
18 believe in my heart that there isn't one of us
19 sitting here that do want to hurt those people
20 who need us.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
22 will read the last section.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll
2788
1 call.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Slow roll
3 call has been requested. Five Senators please
4 stand who request it.
5 Seeing five Senators stand,
6 Secretary will call the roll slowly.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 88. This
8 act shall take effect July 1, 1995.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
10 will call the roll slowly. Call the roll
11 slowly.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
13 SENATOR ABATE: No.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
15 (There was no response.)
16 Excused.
17 Senator Bruno.
18 (Affirmative indication. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Aye.
20 Senator Connor.
21 SENATOR GALIBER: Senator, suffer
22 a point of information? Mr. President, is the
23 bell ringing?
2789
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I don't
2 know. Is the bell ringing? The bells are
3 ringing.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
5 (Negative indication. )
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor in
7 the negative.
8 Senator Cook.
9 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator
11 DeFrancisco.
12 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
14 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Dollinger.
17 (There was no response. )
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
19 SENATOR ESPADA: Explain my
20 vote.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Espada to explain his vote.
23 SENATOR ESPADA: Mr. President,
2790
1 today we here adopt the Republican welfare law.
2 I think the premise, the guiding premise, the
3 legislative initiatives before us don't take us
4 in any measure to the kind of result that we
5 want. We make poor people presumptively
6 criminal through many of these initiatives while
7 leaving the Wall Street panhandlers alone. It's
8 O.K. to give out to them; after all, they're
9 elbowing their way to the welfare lines and, in
10 fact, are in front of the welfare lines these
11 days.
12 I think until we tackle that
13 problem, until we strip away this whole nonsense
14 that it's O.K. if you abridge; it's O.K. if you
15 promise jobs if you don't deliver; it's O.K. if
16 you can afford to have $1,000 fund raisers and
17 give, then you won't be cast as some kind of
18 pariah of the society.
19 My people, 50 percent of the
20 population that I represent can't make it to
21 those fund raisers. They send your humble
22 servant up here, and so we try to do our best.
23 We're against the tide. We understand that, but
2791
1 bad times are no excuse to be cruel. Bad times
2 are no excuse to be irresponsible and bad times
3 do not give us the right to violate the
4 Constitution of this state which very clearly,
5 very clearly says that we shall provide for the
6 needy. It doesn't give us the kind of
7 legislative discretion. It is not a legis
8 lative grace to deprive these people of their
9 basic human rights.
10 I vote no.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Espada in the negative.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Farley to explain his vote.
16 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
17 President.
18 Let me just say I'm proud of this
19 side of the aisle, I'm proud of my party passing
20 a budget on time. We're doing our constitution
21 al duty. We're supposed to have a budget by
22 April 1st. This is the start of it. All I can
23 hope is that the Assembly will also start
2792
1 passing a budget this week so that we can, for
2 the first time in almost memory in 10 or 11
3 years, that we could have a budget by April
4 1st.
5 I vote aye.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Farley in the affirmative.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber.
9 SENATOR GALIBER: No.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
11 (There was no response. )
12 Senator Gonzalez voting in the
13 affirmative earlier today.
14 Senator Goodman.
15 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon.
17 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock
19 voting in the affirmative earlier today.
20 Senator Hoffmann.
21 SENATOR HOFFMANN: May I have my
22 name called?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2793
1 Hoffmann to explain her vote.
2 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr.
3 President.
4 As is so often the case with
5 negotiated measures of this sort, there are
6 provisions within this bill that I support and I
7 know my constituents support. There are other
8 provisions with which I am most dissatisfied and
9 I fear that we will be revisiting them in the
10 not too distant future.
11 One of those provisions is the
12 oft-debated in this house LearnFare measure. If
13 I had my opportunity to vote against that
14 provision and support most of the others in this
15 bill today, I would be much happier casting a
16 yes vote, but I will reluctantly cast my vote in
17 the affirmative but not before I state my very
18 -- my very strong sense of abhorrence for a
19 bill that has as one of its components a measure
20 that would penalize poor families by taking food
21 off the table because one student is errant or
22 truant in school.
23 I would hope that all of my
2794
1 colleagues will watch as closely as I will to
2 see how this measure plays out in Onondaga,
3 Madison and Oneida Counties. It is simply not
4 possible in all families for the custodial
5 parents to ensure that every student in his or
6 her custody is attending school at all times and
7 when a student is delinquent, irresponsible or
8 simply not attending school, what possible
9 justice is there in taking food off the table
10 for the rest of the family by diminishing that
11 family's welfare grant?
12 Having said that, there are so
13 many other provisions in this bill that are
14 overdue and an important adventure or experiment
15 in addressing the outstanding problems of Med...
16 of welfare abuse in this country for so many
17 years, that I feel it's an important step to
18 undertake. But the license provision for the
19 parents or non-custodial parents should generate
20 an enormous amount of revenue to this state,
21 should generate an enormous amount of revenue
22 that the families who need it first, and we will
23 be watching closely to see that this is, in
2795
1 fact, carried out and that it does, in fact,
2 enrich the quality of lives of those children
3 who are -- by the provision of these support
4 payments right now.
5 So this is not the beginning, it
6 is not the end of the debate. The bill is going
7 into effect. It's certainly going to have some
8 modifications in the years ahead. I will
9 reluctantly vote yes for an experiment.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Hoffmann in the affirmative.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland.
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
15 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones.
17 SENATOR JONES: Explain my vote.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Jones to explain her vote.
20 SENATOR JONES: Again, just to
21 reiterate what I said before. I'm very
22 comfortable that this will not become the law
23 but I definitely support the concept and I
2796
1 certainly am not going to vote yes because of
2 something I think it's to be proud of. I just
3 think it's something that signifies there is a
4 problem and the problem needs fixing.
5 When the bill comes back again, I
6 hope, Senator Holland, you will have looked at
7 some of the things that I suggested and perhaps
8 we can get something that will certainly take
9 care of those who are using the system, but
10 continue to do what we want to do for the needy
11 out here in this state.
12 I vote yes.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Jones in the affirmative.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
16 SENATOR KRUGER: Yes.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
18 SENATOR KUHL: Aye.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
20 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
22 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
2797
1 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Leichter.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Leichter to explain his vote.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: To explain my
9 vote.
10 Two rationales have been given
11 for this bill. One is the state is in a
12 financial crisis. Welfare costs are out of
13 control. We need to do something to rein it in
14 because, after all, we've got, as my friend
15 Senator Stafford said, a $5 billion budget.
16 That's false. It's false in this
17 sense, because that deficit exists in large
18 measure because you, the Republican Majority and
19 the Governor, wanted to give a tax cut that will
20 go essentially to wealthy people. So you're
21 taking money from poor people, people in need,
22 infirm, the elderly, children, and you're giving
23 this in tax cuts to people who are essentially
2798
1 well off.
2 The second rationale is the
3 welfare system is broken and it doesn't work,
4 and so on, and I think we all agree that it's a
5 system that has problems. It's a system that
6 certainly hasn't brought people in the main
7 stream but this bill doesn't address that
8 problem because, as I pointed out, it is
9 essentially punitive.
10 It doesn't have provisions in
11 there for effective training. There's no
12 overall plan or program for job creation which
13 is really what is needed. We have in this
14 country really a large number of people that are
15 outside of the -- of the bounds or the main
16 stream of this society that need to be helped to
17 be brought in.
18 I agree, just throwing money at
19 them is no answer, but certainly their basic
20 needs have to be met and what we're dealing with
21 is essentially economic problems and unless we
22 deal with those economic problems and we need to
23 deal with them on a national/international
2799
1 basis, we're not going to be able to solve the
2 problems of a growing number of people who
3 cannot find jobs in this society.
4 This bill in no way addresses
5 this. It ends up being, as I say, a heartless
6 bill. I vote in the negative.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Leichter in the negative.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
10 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
12 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
14 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Marcellino.
17 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
19 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator
21 Markowitz.
22 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz.
2800
1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
3 SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Montgomery.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Montgomery to explain her vote.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
9 President.
10 Briefly, I just want to remind my
11 colleagues that right now in New York City I
12 believe there are some 15- to 20,000 people who
13 are attending one of the SUNY campuses who are
14 on welfare and that says to me that there -
15 these are people who really want to get off of
16 welfare and to go to work. Since there is some
17 opportunity for them to do that now, small,
18 small window as it is, they make supreme
19 sacrifices and somehow they manage the B.S. in
20 college and preparing themselves. Many of them
21 bring their children to college with them
22 because there is a college campus child care and
23 so they can be in school, their children can be
2801
1 in day care and when they want -- once they
2 leave, it has been proven in no uncertain terms
3 that they will never, ever have to go back on
4 welfare, and they will earn a respectful decent
5 income and have as the reports that we have now
6 of people who have been able to go into higher
7 education based on some of the opportunity
8 programs that we've provided, they are
9 contributing tremendously to the economy of this
10 state, especially New York City, but all
11 throughout the state in terms of the earnings
12 that they have, the taxes that they pay back and
13 the tremendous contribution that they have made
14 to our state in many areas.
15 So it is pennywise and pound
16 foolish to cut off opportunity, and I am afraid
17 that this legislation really cuts off
18 opportunity. It does not encourage people to be
19 on the path of independence. So I am voting
20 against it because I believe in people having an
21 opportunity to work and earn a decent income and
22 until we do that, I am unalterably opposed to
23 punishing people, especially since obviously,
2802
1 based on your own statistics, Senator Holland's
2 own statistics, a third of the people who are on
3 public assistance are children. Two-thirds of
4 them are children.
5 And so, Mr. President, I am
6 voting against this legislation, but I want to
7 be on record that I am for welfare reform, but
8 I'm opposed to this kind of punishment of poor
9 people.
10 I vote no.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Montgomery in the negative.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
14 SENATOR NANULA: Explain my vote.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Nanula to explain his vote.
17 SENATOR NANULA: In my estimation
18 what we're really seeing here today is another
19 example of what I believe this administration
20 and this form of policy is representing and
21 that's cuts in a vacuum.
22 I stood in front of this
23 Legislature before in this chamber many times
2803
1 and referenced the fact that I think virtually
2 everyone here can agree that we do need to
3 figure out ways to do more with less. We do
4 need to figure out ways to reinvent government,
5 to cut waste, to cut the tax burden, the
6 regulatory burden on businesses, on agencies, on
7 municipalities. I think we could all agree on
8 that.
9 But when we get beyond the
10 philosophy to the method of accomplishing that
11 is where we run into problems and where I feel
12 there are fundamental differences in approach
13 certainly on either side of the aisle. This,
14 again, in my opinion is one specific example.
15 We're talking about cuts. We're talking about
16 cuts to those who are poor. We're talking about
17 cuts to women, cuts to children.
18 In doing so, we're also
19 discussing or at least those on the opposite
20 side of the aisle the fact that we need to
21 stimulate a better environment for business.
22 Well, I believe these cuts are being made in a
23 vacuum, that instead of developing programs that
2804
1 are solution oriented, whether it be revolved
2 around health care that's affordable or day care
3 or education, all of which by the way are
4 looking also to be cut this year, we're instead
5 saying, Let's instead have people fend for
6 themselves.
7 Where are the jobs? Where is the
8 economic vitality? I feel it's irresponsible.
9 I don't see a responsible plan being developed
10 here, one that really is going to go after the
11 poorer aspects and developments that are going
12 to make New York State a better place for all of
13 us to live.
14 I do feel that we need reform
15 especially in regards to welfare, but until we
16 develop a system and a plan that addresses the
17 real causes, this type of legislation is only
18 going to hurt those who are currently really in
19 need most of government.
20 I vote no.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Nanula in the negative.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2805
1 Nozzolio.
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
3 I ask permission to be excused from voting to
4 explain my vote.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Nozzolio to explain his vote.
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
8 my colleagues, we can no longer afford either
9 economically or ethically to continue supporting
10 a bloated welfare system which acts as a
11 disincentive to work, encourages a life of
12 public assistance, with dependency from
13 generation to generation.
14 What was constructed many, many
15 decades ago as a safety net has been turned into
16 a hammock by some and, as the Governor described
17 a few months ago, a bureaucracy created that has
18 entangled those who want to get out of a
19 dependency. He characterized it, I think,
20 appropriately as a spider web.
21 What we're trying to do is make
22 it a trampoline to get people off of public
23 assistance and to reduce the financial and human
2806
1 costs of welfare. In order to do that, Mr.
2 President, we must empower people to become
3 self-sufficient and provide an atmosphere where
4 they're going to be encouraged to enjoy the
5 dignity and freedom associated with working for
6 a weekly paycheck.
7 I did not hear any of my
8 colleagues who opposed this measure talk about
9 one of its very essential components, and that
10 is the objective of eliminating once and for all
11 the "deadbeat dad" syndrome that we have in this
12 state. We heard much rhetoric about children
13 but none about supporting this provision which
14 eliminates the right that an individual in this
15 state enjoys to drive a car or gain a
16 professional license if they are a "deadbeat
17 dad". Make no mistake about it, you are voting
18 against a major reform to stop "deadbeat dads"
19 in this state.
20 We have a choice this year. We
21 can either take action which is necessary to
22 break the cycle of welfare or we can continue to
23 spend excessively without any regard to reform a
2807
1 system that ends up accomplishing very little if
2 nothing.
3 Mr. President, my colleagues,
4 this measure needs to be adopted. It needs to
5 be adopted quickly. It needs to be adopted to
6 bring freedom and independence once and for all
7 to the people of this state.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do
9 you vote, Senator Nozzolio?
10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I support this
11 measure. Aye.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Nozzolio in the affirmative.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Onorato to explain his vote.
17 SENATOR ONORATO: To explain my
18 vote, Mr. President.
19 I reluctantly intend to support
20 this measure only because I feel it is a very
21 first step towards reforming of welfare, and I
22 also believe that we're not going far enough by
23 not including corporate welfare. You know, it's
2808
1 one thing to continually pick on the poor and
2 not look at some of the welfare benefits that
3 we're giving some of our richest industries in
4 the state.
5 I think we've got to take a
6 little closer look at their welfare benefits and
7 if we're going to share the pain, let's do it
8 across the board because I think the people of
9 New York State would have a much better
10 understanding if everybody was able to share the
11 pain equally because right now the way we're
12 presenting it is that New York State Legislature
13 is presenting cuts for the welfare, cuts for the
14 social services for the middle class, and cuts
15 in taxes for the most wealthiest people of the
16 state.
17 Again, I know this is a one-house
18 bill. Perhaps it will be the spurring motion
19 that will be needed for the Assembly to pass
20 their version of welfare reform and then
21 hopefully both of our houses will get together
22 and come up with a much more compassionate bill
23 that will benefit the entire state.
2809
1 So I, therefore, vote yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Onorato in the affirmative.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Oppenheimer.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Oppenheimer to explain her vote.
8 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Explain my
9 vote, please.
10 It's funny, I can't decide if I
11 should reluctantly vote yes or reluctantly vote
12 no. This bill has a lot that's good in it and
13 it has a lot that's terrible in it.
14 I think Senator Nozzolio was just
15 talking about empowerment and I feel empowerment
16 is to provide for the needs that folks have to
17 get themselves out of the poverty cycle and into
18 the mainstream and that, first and foremost in
19 my mind, is providing them with child care
20 because without child care nothing can happen,
21 and with education and training so that they can
22 get jobs and then, of course, most importantly,
23 jobs. We need to have jobs that these people
2810
1 that will be educated and trained for them will
2 fill.
3 Of course, all of us support
4 going after the "deadbeat dads", but I think I
5 have to listen to my County Executive when he
6 says, and we know it to be true, that the
7 subsidies received for shelter or just the cut
8 back in the general allowance will cause
9 considerably more homelessness and in our case
10 at least I know in my county a goodly number of
11 our -- our homeless people, maybe 15 percent are
12 working but the working poor cannot afford to
13 live in our county without this subsidy.
14 So I think I have to respond to
15 that, and I have to say that cutting the subsidy
16 is certainly not the way to go when we have the
17 Jiggets and the Lovelace case saying that we are
18 not providing presently enough allowance for
19 people to go out and purchase shelter.
20 So I will be voting no even
21 though there are many things I support, and I
22 would like to see a resolution between the two
23 houses that is a little more realistic.
2811
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Oppenheimer in the negative.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator
6 Paterson.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Paterson to explain his vote.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
10 we have a piece of legislation here that
11 establishes a residency requirement around the
12 state. There have been several United States
13 Supreme Court decisions that have ruled that a
14 residency requirement interferes with the
15 interstate travel of an individual.
16 We have a requirement that has
17 also been struck down by courts, that that
18 person even if they are a legal resident who was
19 on any form of public assistance arose from a
20 residence outside this country and then moved to
21 New York, that we're going to deny them any kind
22 of service for six months. That's been struck
23 down.
2812
1 We have benefit limitations of 60
2 days for home relief. That is going to violate,
3 we feel, Article XVII of the Constitution as
4 Senator Waldon pointed out, where we are
5 required to help the indigent. We can not do
6 what they did in Michigan based on our New York
7 State Constitution.
8 We have benefit reductions that
9 fly in the face of several court decisions that
10 we've already had. We have the Jiggets
11 decision, the Lovelace case, and so I think if
12 we really want to find some workable, sensible
13 achievable ways to reform welfare, we've got to
14 stop putting out bills that are in some respects
15 unconstitutional, in other respects fly in the
16 face of our court decisions. In other respects
17 we are replacing statutes with what were agency
18 provisos that are unconstitutional and I think
19 that it is a shame that we are doing all this
20 just to scapegoat individuals who, for the most
21 part, are poor and are needy and need our
22 service. That's what government's credo is.
23 That's what government is supposed to do, to
2813
1 help people who can not help themselves.
2 The reform aspects of this bill
3 are good. I believe Senator Leichter and
4 Senator Hoffmann talked about what it does for
5 "deadbeat dads" to set the record straight and
6 also if we're going to talk about "deadbeat
7 dads" and we're going to talk about reform then
8 let's start piercing the corporate veil for
9 those fathers who shield themselves by being
10 married to women who own businesses. They are
11 listed as not making a dime. It's -- there's no
12 way to go after them. This bill does not
13 address it, and it's my opinion that they are
14 responsible for a great deal of the money that
15 is not paid to their children where they are
16 acting irresponsibly, and acting in an
17 irresponsible way.
18 Otherwise, I think there are a
19 lot of reforms that we should actually address
20 in all kinds of pieces of legislation, those
21 that are apt, that stop thievery and cheating
22 and the things that Senator Markowitz and
23 Senator Espada described earlier that are good,
2814
1 but for the most part to spend this amount of
2 time on really what are going to be revenue
3 raisers that are not in any way equalling the
4 amount of money that has put us in deficit at
5 this time, makes me unfortunately feel that it
6 is more of a political agenda and not a true
7 reform.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do
9 you vote?
10 SENATOR PATERSON: And I vote no,
11 and I have a phone call anyway.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Paterson in the negative.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
15 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
17 SENATOR RATH: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
19 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago
21 voting in the negative earlier today.
22 Senator Sears.
23 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
2815
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
2 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Smith to explain her vote.
8 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President, I
9 too support true welfare reform, but even our
10 colleagues who have voted in the affirmative on
11 this particular bill have noticed that it is a
12 sham. It's time that we stop deceiving the
13 people of the state of New York because soon
14 they're going to wake up and realize that the
15 charade that's been played upon them, and I will
16 not be a part of it.
17 Therefore, I vote no.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Smith in the negative.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon
21 voting in the negative earlier today.
22 Senator Spano.
23 SENATOR SPANO: Aye.
2816
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Stachowski.
3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Stafford.
6 (There was no response. )
7 Senator Stavisky.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Stavisky to explain his vote.
10 SENATOR STAVISKY: I am
11 disappointed and distressed that we appear to be
12 heading toward the adoption of a series of
13 one-house bills which will make a sham, as has
14 been pointed out and a shame of a budget-making
15 process in this state.
16 We know that we have to arrive at
17 negotiated agreement but why are we behaving
18 like the participants in the baseball strike, if
19 you want to call it the baseball lockout?
20 Haven't we learned that the art of government is
21 the art of the attainable, and that there are
22 compromises and agreements that have to be
23 reached between the two houses.
2817
1 Yes, I would like to join in
2 meaningful legislation to eliminate those who
3 abuse the welfare system and should not be
4 receiving payments because they file multiple
5 claims. Yes, I think we should be rounding up
6 deadbeat parents of either sex, because I don't
7 want to be sexist about this, who fail to accept
8 their responsibility towards the children they
9 have brought into the world. Yes, I think we
10 should be prepared to go after those
11 corporations that bleed us for money and then
12 fail to fulfill their obligations with regard to
13 the creation of economic opportunities and jobs
14 in New York State, and then blithely move out of
15 the state of New York in the hopes that they can
16 take the tax abatements and the money with
17 them.
18 When we have dealt with all of
19 these things fairly and when we agree that the
20 purpose of welfare reform is to make it possible
21 for people to go to work -- where are the day
22 care programs that are not being provided by
23 various levels of government? Where is the
2818
1 training opportunities for jobs that do exist,
2 not for jobs that don't exist? Where are the
3 opportunities to find jobs when the private
4 sector and the public sector seem bent upon
5 creating unemployment rather than job
6 opportunity.
7 Those people out of work may
8 replace the people on welfare whom we're trying
9 to get off welfare and that doesn't seem like a
10 very rational approach. I believe in honesty in
11 government, but what we are doing today is a
12 dishonest exercise in political gamesmanship and
13 it's no better on the Assembly side because I'd
14 be delivering the same speech if I were still
15 serving there.
16 We've got to come together.
17 We've got to agree upon what we can together
18 pass and then do it as a Legislature and not
19 like quibbling, quarreling one-house bill
20 advocates which I'm afraid the public will
21 perceive.
22 I think the Legislature is
23 capable of much more constructive decision
2819
1 making than I have seen this week. I vote in
2 the negative on this bill.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Stavisky in the negative.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo.
6 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
8 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
10 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
12 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Waldon to explain his vote.
16 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President,
17 my colleagues, on an island in a harbor in the
18 city of New York stands a great lady. On a
19 tablet under her arm in words and substance is
20 said, Send me your tired, your poor, your
21 huddled masses yearning to be free.
22 Philosophically that statement
23 says that this state, this great Empire State,
2820
1 is a place of inclusion. We welcome diverse
2 peoples from around the globe to come here, to
3 find sustenance and security and safety and the
4 good life.
5 I'm worried, even though this is
6 but a one-house bill, by the signal that it
7 sends that we're no longer about inclusion, that
8 we're no longer about welcome and welcoming to
9 those who are different from us, that we are
10 becoming a place which will not be remembered as
11 the Empire State but may be characterized as the
12 "vampire state" because when you take from the
13 poor and feed the rich you are sucking the blood
14 of those who are least able to fend for them
15 selves, and I find that troublesome, meddlesome
16 and worrisome.
17 I believe that we can do better.
18 I believe that the corporate structures who show
19 a profit margin of $4 billion do not need AFDC
20 from this legislative body, aid for dependent
21 corporations. I believe that that money is
22 better spent if we give it to the mother as
23 characterized by my esteemed colleague, Senator
2821
1 Espada, who has two children, who is struggling
2 to make ends meet but that they only are allowed
3 to receive less than a thousand dollars per
4 month, which throws her life into a state of
5 chaos.
6 I believe it is tacky for us as a
7 legislative body to support measures which will
8 cause people such pain and suffering. I think
9 that we ought to stop feeding the rich with the
10 poor. I think we ought to turn ourselves around
11 in terms of the philosophy which says that we
12 are now becoming the "vampire state" and return
13 to the time when we were in true fashion the
14 Empire State.
15 I beseech my colleagues to
16 recognize that we are better. We are better.
17 We are better than this, and I vote in the no.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Waldon in the negative.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright.
21 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
23 will call the absentees.
2822
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Dollinger.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
4 President, explain my vote.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Dollinger to explain his vote.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll drop
8 back to the -- I guess the principle that we've
9 all talked about here, remember the TQM
10 principle, and what that says is you go to your
11 customers to find out how to change something
12 and, frankly, I don't know what your customers
13 are saying, but the people that are recipients
14 of AFDC and HR in my community don't come to me
15 and say, you know, "It's a great solution, Work
16 Fare, give me WorkFare. Give me LearnFare.
17 Make me live at home with my parents, that's the
18 way to get me off public assistance." They
19 don't say that to me.
20 They say, Give me some training,
21 get me into college, let me get to the HEOP
22 program which is now disappearing. Let me get
23 to the training programs. Those are now
2823
1 disappearing. Give me child care. Those are
2 now disappearing. All those things that those
3 customers tell me that they want in order to be
4 able to get real opportunity is now being taken
5 away.
6 Instead, this vision of what is
7 best for them is being imposed on them. There
8 could be no greater departure from the TQM
9 process. If we really believe in TQM, listen to
10 our customers, listen to the people that we all
11 acknowledge want to get off dependency. There
12 is a way to do it. Listen to them. This is not
13 what they are telling us to do.
14 I vote no.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Dollinger in the negative.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
18 (There was no response. )
19 Senator Stafford.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Stafford to explain his rote.
22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
23 I just very briefly would like to compliment
2824
1 Senator Holland and his staff and other staff
2 people of the Senate who worked on this bill.
3 I would only again say, my
4 friends, this is a different -- difference in
5 philosophy. We're saying beginning -- before we
6 start any budget bills at all, we simply have
7 got to put this state in line with other states
8 if we're going to keep the economic engine
9 running, and this bill takes those steps.
10 We think it is necessary. We
11 think it's fair. It's equitable and, if we
12 don't do this, take actions such as we're taking
13 here today and become more in line with the
14 other states of this nation, we're going to be
15 in real serious, serious trouble.
16 I vote aye.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Stafford in the affirmative.
19 Announce the results.
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41, nays
21 18.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
23 is passed.
2825
1 The Chair recognizes Senator
2 Skelos.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr.
4 President, would you recognize Senator Holland.
5 I believe he has some housekeeping.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Holland.
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President,
9 on page 11, I offer the following amendments for
10 Senator Velella, Calendar Number 184, Senate
11 Print Number 2704, and ask that said bill retain
12 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
14 Amendments are received and adopted; bill will
15 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
16 Senator Maltese.
17 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
18 referring to Calendar Number 210, Senate Bill
19 624, I wish the record to indicate that had I
20 been in the house I would have voted aye. I was
21 detained elsewhere on Senate business.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Maltese, the record will reflect that had you
2826
1 been in the chamber when the roll call was taken
2 on Calendar Number 210, you would have voted in
3 the affirmative.
4 Senator Skelos.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
6 at this time would you please call up Calendar
7 Number 291.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
9 will read Calendar Number 291.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 291, Budget Bill, Senate Print 1552-A, an act
12 making appropriations for the legal requirements
13 of the state debt service.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
15 will read the last section. Excuse me, Senator
16 Skelos.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a
18 message of necessity at the desk?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
20 a message of necessity at the desk.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I
22 move to accept the message.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is
2827
1 to accept the message. All those in favor
2 signify by saying aye.
3 (Response of "Aye.")
4 Opposed nay.
5 (There was no response. )
6 The message is accepted.
7 Secretary will read the last
8 section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
15 the results when tabulated.
16 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
17 the negative on Calendar Number 291 are Senators
18 Dollinger, Jones and Montgomery. Ayes -
19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Not -
20 THE SECRETARY: Excuse me. Those
21 recorded in the negative are Senators Dollinger
22 and Jones. Ayes 58, nays 2.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2828
1 is passed.
2 Senator Skelos.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
4 is there any other housekeeping?
5 Please recognize Senator
6 Hoffmann.
7 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. President,
8 I was out of the chamber at the time the vote
9 was taken on Calendar 210. Had I been present
10 at that time, I would have voted in the
11 affirmative. I would like the record to so
12 reflect.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 calendar will reflect, Senator Hoffmann, that
15 had you been in the chamber when the roll call
16 was taken on Calendar Number 210 that you would
17 have voted in the affirmative.
18 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Skelos, I'm informed by the Secretary that there
21 is no housekeeping at the desk.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
23 there being no further business, I move that we
2829
1 adjourn until tomorrow, Wednesday, at 10:00
2 a.m.,sharp.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate
4 will stand adjourned until tomorrow, 10:00 a.m.,
5 sharp.
6 (Whereupon at 6:11 p.m., the
7 Senate adjourned.)
8
9
10