Regular Session - April 3, 1995
3737
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 April 3, 1995
10 3:00 p.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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3738
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senate will come to order. Ask the Senators to
4 find their places. Ask everyone in the chamber
5 to rise with me and repeat the Pledge of
6 Allegiance to the Flag.
7 (The assemblage repeated the
8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
9 Once again we're very pleased to
10 have the Reverend Peter G. Young of the Blessed
11 Sacrament Church of Bolton Landing with us to
12 deliver the invocation.
13 Reverend Young.
14 REVEREND PETER YOUNG: Thank you,
15 Senator.
16 Let us pray. Dear God, we pray
17 for all New York State people, that their wealth
18 and their power might become a force for peace
19 rather than conflict, a source of hope rather
20 than discontent, an age into friendship rather
21 than enmity. May the actions of all of those in
22 the Senate be an example for this sharing of
23 Your love. We ask You this now and forever.
3739
1 Amen.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Reading
3 of the Journal.
4 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
5 Sunday, April 2nd. The Senate met pursuant to
6 adjournment, Senator Hoblock in the Chair. The
7 Journal of Saturday, April 1st, was read and
8 approved. On motion, the Senate adjourned.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing
10 no objection, the Journal stands approved as
11 read.
12 Presentation of petitions.
13 Messages from the Assembly.
14 Messages from the Governor.
15 Reports of standing committees.
16 Reports of select committees.
17 Communications and reports from
18 state officers.
19 Motions and resolutions.
20 Senator Bruno, we have a
21 substitution at the desk if you would like to
22 take that at this time.
23 SENATOR BRUNO: Please make the
3740
1 substitution, Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Secretary will read.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland
5 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules,
6 Assembly Bill Number 6084-C and substitute it
7 for the identical Calendar Number 352.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 substitution is ordered.
10 Senator Bruno, that brings us to
11 the calendar.
12 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
13 can we at this time take up the non
14 controversial calendar?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the non-controversial
17 calendar.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 60, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 773, an act to
20 amend the Penal Law, in relation to including
21 the theft of dogs and cats.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside,
23 please.
3741
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
2 bill aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 124, by Senator Levy, Senate Print Number 972,
5 an act in relation to requiring the Department
6 of Motor Vehicles to include certain
7 information.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Secretary will read the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
13 roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 184, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2704-A, an
20 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation
21 to the disclosure of confidential HIV-related
22 information.
23 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside for
3742
1 the day at the request of the sponsor.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay it
3 aside for the day.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 185, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 3323-A, an
6 act to amend Chapter 426 of the Laws of 1983
7 amending the Public Health Law.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
9 bill aside.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 230, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 210-C, an
12 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
13 indecent material.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
16 bill aside.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 235, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1728, an
19 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
20 chemical agents and chemical agent weapons.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
23 bill aside.
3743
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 257, by Senator Skelos, Senate Bill 519, an act
3 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to the
4 powers and duties of the Crime Victims Board.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Secretary will read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 258, by Senator Saland, Senate Bill 2110, an act
17 to amend the Executive Law and the Social
18 Services Law, in relation to making reports of
19 child abuse available to probation services.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Secretary will read the last section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
23 act shall take effect on the 90th day.
3744
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll.)
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
6 is passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 261, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 2818, an
9 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation to
10 charging taxes on sales.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
16 roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
20 is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 352, substituted earlier today by Member of the
23 Assembly Schimminger, Assembly Print 6084-C, an
3745
1 act to amend the Finance Law, the Banking Law
2 and Chapter 705 of the Laws of 1993.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
5 bill aside.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 353, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print
8 3955 -
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside
10 for the day.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
12 bill aside for the day.
13 Senator Bruno, that completes the
14 non-controversial calendar.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
16 can we now take up the controversial calendar?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Secretary will read the controversial calendar.
19 THE SECRETARY: On page number 8,
20 Calendar Number 60, by Senator Levy, Senate
21 Print 773, an act to amend the Penal Law, in
22 relation to including the theft of dogs and
23 cats.
3746
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Levy, an explanation has been asked for by
4 Senator Paterson.
5 SENATOR LEVY: Senator Paterson,
6 for the past four or five years, this bill has
7 been before this house, and I'm very, very
8 disappointed that the Assembly has not moved
9 forward to pass this bill and to make it the law
10 of the state of New York.
11 What this bill does, and what it
12 really tries to address is if you or I own a dog
13 or a cat, and it's a pedigree, and our dog or
14 cat is stolen, that would be a felony because
15 the pet is a pedigree. For people that love
16 their dogs or love their cats, and for most
17 people that own -- own those types of pets, the
18 pet is a member of their family. If the pet is
19 not a pedigree and the pet is stolen, the dog or
20 cat, then it wouldn't be a felony.
21 This bill addresses that
22 problem. And let me say to you that, since
23 we've had this bill before this house this past
3747
1 summer on Long Island and here upstate, there
2 were petnapping rings that were stealing dogs
3 and cats that weren't pedigrees. If this bill
4 had been in place when the perpetrators were
5 apprehended they would appropriately be charged
6 with a felony.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Paterson.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
10 President.
11 Would Senator Levy yield for a
12 question?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Levy, do you yield for a question by Senator
15 Paterson?
16 SENATOR LEVY: Yes.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Senator yields.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: First of all,
20 Senator Levy, I appreciate that you continue to
21 bring the bill before the house and you believe
22 that it should be a law in spite of whatever the
23 Assembly has done. Sometimes I think that
3748
1 Senators and Assembly members are criticized for
2 doing that, and I think that's perfectly
3 understandable.
4 My question relates to the bill
5 itself. Do you have any statistics from the
6 Department of Criminal Justice Services or the
7 FBI that would enlighten me as to how serious a
8 problem this might be?
9 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. Before I
10 first introduced this bill, there was a study
11 that was done by a member of the police
12 department in the city of Rochester on
13 petnapping rings, and that probably goes back
14 more than five or six years ago where there were
15 rings operating, not only in this state, but
16 other parts of the country that were stealing
17 dogs -- dog meat is a delicacy in the Far East
18 and that's what the pets were being used for.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
22 if Senator Levy would continue to yield.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3749
1 Levy, do you yield to another question?
2 SENATOR LEVY: Certainly.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Senator yields.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: I have two
6 other questions, Senator Levy. The first one is
7 do you think this legislation is out of line
8 with a number of valuable properties that
9 individuals might have, things that have a
10 sensitive nature to -- to people and because of
11 the fact that it has that high value, there's a
12 tendency when it -- if it's stolen to want to
13 specialize a law and attach it to the particular
14 situation. Would making this crime of thievery
15 of a pet take the value of a pet out of standard
16 with what the other important items to other
17 individuals?
18 SENATOR LEVY: Senator Paterson,
19 let me answer the question the same way I've
20 answered it each year that someone on your side
21 of the aisle has raised that question during the
22 debate.
23 Senator, if you or somebody else
3750
1 feels that there is an object that you would
2 like -- you would like to have defined in the
3 Penal Law as a felony, you know the process as
4 well as I do. If you choose to do so, you
5 introduce a bill, and then if the appropriate
6 committee that has jurisdiction over the bill
7 agrees with you, it will come out here on to the
8 floor and you and I will discuss it.
9 As it -- as it is as a matter of
10 fact, Senator, today, if somebody steals a
11 pedigree dog or a pedigree cat, that is a
12 felony. And all we are trying to do with this
13 piece of legislation is to equate the pedigree
14 and non-pedigree pets so they are treated the
15 same way.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Paterson.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Finally,
19 through you, Mr. President, to Senator Levy.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Levy, do you yield to one more question?
22 SENATOR LEVY: Certainly.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3751
1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: My question,
3 Senator Levy, is related to just the issue of an
4 individual who might come in contact with an
5 animal who might, for instance, think the animal
6 is starving or something, who takes the animal
7 into their possession not knowing that the
8 animal belongs to someone else; don't they
9 become liable under this statute?
10 SENATOR LEVY: Senator, you know
11 that in any loss in a statute, there has to be a
12 specific intent to steal, and unless the people
13 are able to prove that beyond a reasonable
14 doubt, there would be no violation of law.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
16 President.
17 That satisfies my -
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
19 recognizes Senator Waldon.
20 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
21 much, Mr. President, my colleagues.
22 Would the good Senator yield for
23 just a couple of brief questions?
3752
1 SENATOR LEVY: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator yields, Senator Waldon.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, the
5 information that you received from the Rochester
6 study, did it cite the places where the dogs or
7 cats were stolen from? By that, I mean, were
8 they primarily stolen from the homes of the
9 owners? Were they stolen on the street or from
10 the pet shops; is there any information in that
11 regard?
12 SENATOR LEVY: Senator, my
13 recollection of the study was that it was not in
14 that great detail.
15 SENATOR WALDON: May I again?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Levy, do you yield?
18 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, certainly,
19 Senator.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Senator continues to yield.
22 SENATOR WALDON: Is there any
23 information in regard to situations where there
3753
1 was not an indication of specific intent to
2 steal the cat or dog but the possession of the
3 cat or dog resulted in unlawful possession of
4 stolen property?
5 SENATOR LEVY: Senator, this bill
6 only deals with making the theft of the dog or
7 cat where the value does not exceed $1,000 a
8 felony. It does not deal with receiving stolen
9 property.
10 SENATOR WALDON: I apologize, Mr.
11 President.
12 I meant to state the study that
13 you are aware of, did it have any information
14 regarding stolen property?
15 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. What the
16 study indicated was that the motivation for
17 rings of persons that were stealing pets was for
18 the purpose of shipping those pets to the Far
19 East so that they could be utilized for food
20 because dog meat is a delicacy, according to the
21 study in the Far East.
22 SENATOR WALDON: Last question,
23 Mr. President, if I may ask.
3754
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Senator continues to yield.
3 SENATOR WALDON: I promise.
4 Is there any information in that
5 study or other studies which identifies the ring
6 or rings to the degree that the police now know
7 who they are, where they are and can move
8 against the ring itself?
9 SENATOR LEVY: Senator, this
10 study was done six or seven or eight years ago
11 and, to my knowledge, there has been no study
12 that has been done since that date updating the
13 information or that police officer who's now
14 retired.
15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
16 much, Mr. President.
17 Thank you very much, Senator
18 Levy.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
22 act shall take effect on the 1st day of
23 November.
3755
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll.)
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
5 the results when tabulated.
6 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
7 the negative on Calendar Number 60 are Senators
8 Abate, Babbush, Mendez, Montgomery, Saland and
9 Waldon. Ayes 47, nays 6.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 The Secretary will continue -
13 THE SECRETARY: Also, Senator
14 Gold.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will continue the controversial
17 calendar.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 185, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 3323-A, an
20 act to amend Chapter 426 of the Laws of 1983,
21 amending the Public Health Law, relating to
22 professional misconduct proceedings.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
3756
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Hannon, an explanation has been asked for by
3 Senator Paterson.
4 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Mr.
5 President.
6 This is a three-year extension of
7 the demonstration program for the Committee on
8 Physicians Health of the Medical Society to
9 allow impaired physicians who have not harmed
10 patients to be able to obtain referrals for
11 treatment and to allow for intervention in order
12 to help physicians who are troubled. It's done
13 through a mechanism that is not part of the
14 disciplinary process.
15 There is currently also some
16 mechanisms that are part of the disciplinary
17 process. And for that reason, the study that's
18 required for this additional period, once an
19 investigation report as to the elements of
20 duplication, any reasons to continue that.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
22 recognizes Senator Paterson.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
3757
1 Senator Dollinger has an amendment that I
2 believe is at the desk. I would ask, Mr.
3 President, that you recognize him at this time.
4 SENATOR HANNON: Mr. President.
5 Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Hannon.
8 SENATOR HANNON: I don't believe
9 the amendment is in order. Doesn't it have to
10 be served on the committee Chair before it's
11 offered? It's already been offered so it's too
12 late.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Hannon, the amendment is just being handed up.
15 The service is being attempted at this moment.
16 Senator Hannon, you have been
17 served now, I understand, with the amendment?
18 SENATOR HANNON: I'll withdraw my
19 objection. My point is one of a larger one than
20 technicalities which is simply, if you really
21 intend the amendment to serve a purpose to try
22 to accomplish a change in the direction of the
23 legislation, one ought to bring it forward so
3758
1 that we can have time to do something about it
2 and do something before we've already engaged in
3 discussions with the other house and come to an
4 agreement.
5 This bill is a three-year
6 extension. It's been agreed to by the other
7 house and it's necessary because the program
8 needs to continue. This is the first day of
9 business and -- of the new period of time that
10 it's needed and if we don't do it today, it
11 could lapse.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Dollinger, the amendment is at the desk.
14 Senator Paterson indicated you wanted to offer
15 it up at this point. Is that the situation?
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, Mr.
17 President. I call it up; I would waive its
18 reading and just ask for a brief explanation, an
19 opportunity to -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 amendment is before the house. The reading is
22 waived, and the Chair recognizes Senator
23 Dollinger for the purpose of explaining the
3759
1 amendment.
2 Senator Dollinger.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
4 President, I want to address Senator Hannon's
5 point about the amendment. I had suggested in
6 committee when we did this that we might make an
7 amendment to make this permanent.
8 Unfortunately, I didn't find that
9 it was going to be on the active list until I
10 got here at about noon today, and I would have
11 done this in shorter order had I known that it
12 was going to be on the active list today.
13 So I apologize to the chairman if
14 it appears as though it's -- it's appearing on
15 the docket without proper notice or without
16 extensive discussion, but I did raise, I
17 believe, the issue in committee that it might be
18 subject to an amendment to make it permanent.
19 This is a program that I know the chairman of
20 the Health Committee supports. It's been around
21 since 1983. It's one that seems to have had a
22 great deal of success. We don't change the
23 requirements that there be an evaluation of the
3760
1 program. We'd simply under this amendment make
2 it permanent and not have this go on as it has
3 in the past on the basis of a renewal at some
4 determinate period of a number of years.
5 I think this is a good program.
6 I think it's worthy of becoming permanent, Mr.
7 President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 question is on the amendment.
10 Senator Hannon on the amendment.
11 SENATOR HANNON: Three things:
12 Senator Dollinger, I know you're well inten
13 tioned, but if you think back to the last
14 committee, this was not the bill. We talked
15 about rural health demonstration extension. We
16 talked about school days clinic demonstration.
17 Those are the ones we talked about for
18 extensions, not this. When it comes to this,
19 there is a good reason to continue this as a
20 demonstration program.
21 Currently in the Department of
22 Health as part of the disciplinary process,
23 there are requirements of individuals who are
3761
1 subject to that program to go through
2 intervention and treatments.
3 This is non-disciplinary as a
4 program. This takes -- tries to take it out and
5 remove the disciplinary from the intervention so
6 that we can go for a cure without mixing up the
7 two. There is actually an overlap so that some
8 individuals, because of the different way the
9 statutes are constructed, are going through the
10 disciplinary process and the supervision by DOH
11 and they're going through this program. We want
12 to figure out a way to disengage it and
13 hopefully make this at some point, this program,
14 permanent.
15 That's why I amended the bill to
16 require that the study include the effects of
17 such duplication so we might get a clearer
18 picture, and I might remind you that a whole
19 disciplinary process for physicians has recently
20 been shifted to DOH from SED, so that is
21 somewhat of a new process for them also. So
22 that I would argue with you that there is a
23 solid reason not to accept your amendment, to
3762
1 continue forward with this demonstration
2 program.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 question is on the amendment. All those in
5 favor signfiy by saying aye.
6 (Response of "Aye".)
7 Opposed, nay.
8 (Response of "Nay".)
9 The amendment is lost.
10 On the bill, the Secretary will
11 read the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
18 the results.
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
21 is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 230, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 210-C, an
3763
1 act to amend Penal Law, in relation to
2 disseminating indecent material to minors
3 through any computer communication system.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Sears, an explanation has been asked for by
7 Senator Paterson.
8 SENATOR SEARS: Yes. Thank you
9 very much, Mr. President.
10 The bill has two aims: To meet a
11 deficiency in current law concerning contact
12 between pedophiles and their youthful victims
13 via computer modem or online service, and also
14 to provide a prosecutorial tool and punishment
15 sufficient to the crime.
16 Now, how does this bill
17 accomplish these goals? By making it a Class E
18 felony punishable by one to four years in prison
19 for anyone to initiate or engage in sexually
20 explicit communications with a minor via
21 computer modem or online services and, by making
22 it a Class D felony, punishable by one to seven
23 years in prison for anyone to use these
3764
1 communications to invite, induce or compel a
2 minor into taking certain sexually explicit
3 actions, such as the taking of photographs, and
4 that's a brief explanation of the bill.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
6 recognizes Senator Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: There are,
8 actually as Senator Sears pointed out, Mr.
9 President, two sections of the bill and, first
10 of all, I think that he really has filled a
11 loophole in the law with this legislation by
12 making it a crime to use the computer modem as a
13 method in which pedophiles or law breakers can
14 use, as Senator Mendez has pointed out many
15 times, that procedure to induce minors into
16 seeing sexually explicit material.
17 My question, if Senator Sears
18 will yield for a question -
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Sears, do you yield to Senator Paterson?
21 SENATOR SEARS: Yeah.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Senator yields.
3765
1 SENATOR PATERSON: My question
2 relates to the dissemination label in the bill,
3 being that you go on later in the bill to point
4 out that, if you induce or engage a minor into
5 this activity, it would seem to me that that
6 would actually -- the definition of that would
7 be more endangering the welfare of a child, and
8 I just wondered why you still wrote the bill
9 claiming that this crime is reached by the
10 dissemination when you actually, very
11 thoughtfully, have amended the bill to make it
12 such now that there's an affirmative defense,
13 that of lack of knowledge, where the
14 disseminating party doesn't know that it's going
15 to a minor. So, in other words, there has to be
16 some intent, some active engagement. Once it
17 becomes that, what I'm saying is isn't that
18 endangering the welfare of a child?
19 SENATOR SEARS: It certainly is.
20 That's -- the purpose of the bill is to tell
21 these pedophiles that, if they're going to
22 endanger the welfare of child, instead of being
23 just a misdemeanor, which is the present law,
3766
1 now we're going to make it a Class D and Class E
2 felony for something more serious than that. So
3 there's no question about it is for the purpose
4 of stopping this endangering the welfare of a
5 child.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
7 Senator Sears.
8 On the bill.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Paterson on the bill.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: I actually
12 agreed with the bill. I was just trying to
13 point out that, I think that it should not have
14 been in the dissemination section; I think it
15 should have been in endangering the welfare of a
16 child, but it's certainly needed legislation and
17 we thank Senator Sears for introducing it.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
19 Secretary will read the last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
21 act shall take effect on the 1st day of
22 November.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
3767
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
5 is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 235, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1728, an
8 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
9 chemical agents and chemical agent weapons.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Johnson, an explanation has been asked for by
13 Senator Paterson.
14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
15 this is a bill which we've had before us many
16 times. It authorizes the possession of a state
17 police approved chemical weapon for
18 self-defense.
19 When I first wrote this bill up
20 eight or nine years ago, we were one of three
21 states which did not permit the possession of a
22 chemical spray for self-defense. Since then, we
23 have been stuck in this time warp where it's not
3768
1 nice to defend yourself. Other states have seen
2 the light and now every state and including the
3 District of Columbia, permits people to possess
4 mace or pepper spray or whatever is approved in
5 their state, for self-defense.
6 It's kind of interesting, Mr.
7 President, last year when we debated it, I read
8 the story about this lady who was attacked in
9 the parking lot, attempted to be attacked and
10 raped, and how she defended herself with a can
11 of mace and escaped and was not a victim.
12 That is impossible in this
13 state. In this state you would be a victim or
14 else you would be a law breaker carrying mace in
15 violation of the law.
16 Now, any state which tells you
17 you're not allowed to have anything to protect
18 yourself that -- just like, "Well, it's that
19 kind of a society and somebody's got to be a
20 statistic and this might be your turn, but don't
21 ever try to defend yourself." You're not
22 allowed to have a handgun, obviously, or any
23 other type of weapon so you can't even have a
3769
1 can of spray to protect yourself. Any
2 government which has that message is an immoral
3 goverment which does not care for the -- for the
4 safety and -- health and safety of their
5 citizens, and I think it's a terrible message
6 and it's time to turn that around, Mr.
7 President.
8 So my bill says state police
9 approved mace can be bought by anyone who meets
10 a standard for buying a firearm, essentially;
11 you're not a criminal; you're not a mental case,
12 and so on, and so on, and it's about time that
13 this happened, Mr. President, and the bill is
14 before us and I would urge everyone to vote in
15 the affirmative.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Paterson.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
19 would Senator Johnson yield for a question?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Johnson, do you yield to a question?
22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3770
1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
3 Johnson, Mayor Giuliani of the city of New York
4 is certainly a strong law enforcement advocate,
5 former United States Attorney for the Southern
6 District; he has a concern about this
7 Legislation as do many others.
8 Just two weeks ago there was an
9 incident in which 70 school children, teachers
10 and the principal were taken to the hospital
11 after mace was sprayed in a school in New York
12 City.
13 Two weeks ago there was a similar
14 incident in a New York City subway in which a
15 number of individuals were injured by the
16 effects of the use of a can of mace.
17 There is a warning that was
18 issued in 1993 by the federal government to law
19 enforcement authorities about the dangers of
20 mace and this was a warning that was issued to
21 law enforcement authorities who are already
22 trained in the use of mace. And so as a
23 self-defense weapon, I'm sure that it would be
3771
1 effective.
2 My question, though, is would the
3 congestion of a lot of our cities and the
4 ability to use -- this sword cuts both ways. It
5 can be used as a self-defense mechanism. It can
6 also be used to promote violence and commit
7 crimes, and my question to you, Senator Johnson,
8 is given that fact, that we may just be in a
9 sense sanctioning another violent weapon, do you
10 think it's a good thing for us to be passing
11 this bill?
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: The question is
13 if we make it legal for people to purchase this,
14 would that stop people who acquired it illegally
15 who aren't qualified using it in the commission
16 of a crime or worse, would that stop those
17 people? The answer is no, Mr. President, it
18 will not. It doesn't stop people who aren't
19 entitled to have weapons, pistols, et cetera.
20 People who don't have a license, it doesn't stop
21 them from getting it. So people will have this
22 and misuse it on occasion. We're not concerned
23 about those people. That's a job for law
3772
1 enforcement.
2 This bill says that, if you do
3 have it and you use it illegally or you commit a
4 crime with it or you attack a policeman with it,
5 you get very serious penalties, including felony
6 charges for misuse of it. So we are really
7 protecting people against misuse by guaranteeing
8 that those who misuse it will be penalized in
9 strict accordance with the law, but what we're
10 saying is there's a lot of innocent, honest
11 people out there who have no other way to defend
12 themselves.
13 You might be interested, Mr.
14 President, to know that this is being bought
15 all across the country now, as I said, and more
16 than 50 percent of the people who buy this are
17 ladies between of the age of 18 and 35.
18 Three-quarters of the all the purchasers are
19 ladies. A big majority of that -- of that
20 cohort are professional women who decide that
21 they're not going to take their chances in this
22 society and they're going to have a way to
23 defend themselves and they're buying it, legal
3773
1 or illegal. We know that. All we're saying is
2 let's make it legal. Why should a person be
3 criminal because they have mace in their
4 pocketbook.
5 And, Mr. President, I have heard
6 of cases, and you have too, where people you
7 know perhaps, or people have come to you said,
8 "Gee, I had it in my pocketbook when the
9 policeman stopped me. I gave him my license and
10 he saw that and he said, 'You know, that's a
11 violation of law. We're going to charge you for
12 possessing.' I only want to have it to protect
13 myself because, you know, it's kind of a violent
14 society out there. 'Well, it's against the law
15 When they change the law, you can have it.'"
16 Another person was going out to
17 an airplane, got pulled aside because they found
18 mace. "What are you going to do with this
19 stuff?" "Well, I just have to protect myself."
20 Oh, you're not allowed to protect yourself in
21 the state of New York. Time to change that, Mr.
22 President. That's all I can tell you.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3774
1 Paterson.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
3 I understand what Senator Johnson is saying.
4 That wasn't really the question I was asking
5 him. The issue that I'm addressing, Senator
6 Johnson, is whether or not there are going to be
7 more incidents of people using this item as a
8 self-defense mechanism or whether there are
9 going to be more incidents of people who now can
10 openly carry the can of mace using it to commit
11 violence on other people. That's what my
12 question is.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Johnson to respond.
15 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
16 the bill says there are penalties for misusing
17 this, as you well know, and that any person
18 who's going to purchase this must purchase it
19 and swear that they haven't been convicted of
20 any felony, that they don't have any dis
21 abilities, that they don't have any mental
22 problems. Essentially the same type of
23 questions will be required to be answered by
3775
1 people who buy this as people who buy rifles and
2 shotguns right now except, of course, they
3 wouldn't require a license for this.
4 Misuse of it is in the law. It's
5 really addressed and, quite frankly, Mr.
6 President, it's always easy to conjure up a
7 boogie man somewhere who's going to do terrible
8 things with the freedom that we give them in
9 this country but, you know, it hasn't happened
10 in the other states.
11 There's a glaring example of
12 somebody who brought it to school; they thought
13 it was fun, okay. People bring handguns to
14 school every day in New York City, Mr.
15 President. I'm not legalizing that and I'm not
16 legalizing children -- these people, first of
17 all, have to be over 18; they probably wouldn't
18 even be in school -- to carry mace with them.
19 We're not legalizing children, we're not
20 legalizing criminals to carry it. We're just
21 saying that the honest, self-respecting people
22 in this state should be able to defend
23 themselves in some non-lethal manner as you can
3776
1 do in all the other states, and I haven't heard
2 a good reason against it.
3 Giuliani's memo is the same memo
4 that Dinkins said, "Congratulations". They
5 think we should have fewer weapons on the
6 street. So do I, Mr. President, but I think
7 there should be fewer weapons, lethal or
8 non-lethal, in the hands of criminals and more
9 in the hands of honest people, Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Paterson.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
13 President.
14 I think the confusion over the
15 use of mace lies in the definition of it as a
16 non-lethal weapon. It is a non-lethal weapon,
17 but it still is a very serious, harmful weapon,
18 and the fact that it is defined as a non-lethal
19 weapon is what often leads us to believe that
20 there would not be a use that could cause very
21 serious damage to individuals, particularly
22 individuals with serious upper respiratory
23 problems as is the case with mace.
3777
1 So what I'm trying to point out
2 and just putting these issues out here is not
3 the attempt to create a boogie man, because
4 there is already widespread use of this by
5 individuals who feel they need to protect
6 themselves; they're not going to go as far as
7 carrying a gun, which is a deadly weapon. They
8 want to do something that will disarm an
9 attacker to give them an opportunity to get
10 away.
11 All I'm saying is because it is a
12 product that can cause rather serious bodily
13 harm, perhaps there should be some kind of
14 training. In other words, if somebody want to
15 use it, then we might have a registry and let
16 them go through a brief training session since
17 the law enforcement officials that use it right
18 now are trained in how to administer mace and
19 then, in my opinion, I wouldn't have any problem
20 with it, and that's what I feel on the bill, Mr.
21 President, but if Senator Johnson would yield to
22 another question; I wonder how he feels about
23 it.
3778
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Johnson, would you yield to Senator Paterson?
3 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr.
4 President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Senator yields, Senator Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: That's my
8 question, Senator Johnson. Would you support
9 the mandatory training of individuals who would
10 purchase the product?
11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
12 our previous bill over the years had mandatory
13 training. No other states require that. To my
14 knowledge, presently, it seemed to be very
15 cumbersome and interfered with an opportunity to
16 buy it because people who couldn't take the
17 training course, therefore, couldn't defend
18 themselves. That was seen as a -- not
19 necessarily helpful but really probably would
20 inhibit most people who need it or feel they
21 need it from getting the protection. So it
22 isn't required, Mr. President.
23 All I would say is that we all
3779
1 know the example of Bernie Goetz. We know the
2 example of other people who have purchased
3 weapons or had weapons illegally to carry with
4 them when they go to the City because they felt
5 threatened and they've used those guns on people
6 who have threatened them. In fact, there was a
7 case last year where one man shot a couple of
8 hoodlums in a subway train and the police said,
9 "Turn yourself in. We know you didn't do
10 anything wrong. You tried to defend these
11 people but come into the police station and
12 we'll talk about it", and there was a hue and
13 cry throughout the City, "Don't turn yourself
14 in. Don't surrender. Don't tell the cops
15 anything. You did the right thing." And I
16 don't think they ever found that man.
17 Now, do we need that kind of
18 thing? Do we need people carrying guns to
19 defend themselves and other people when you can
20 do it with a weapon which isn't serious? And
21 you say people could get hurt with mace, but
22 I'll tell you, if I'm going to get shot or I'm
23 going to get maced, I would rather get maced if
3780
1 it's all the same to you, Mr. Paterson -
2 Senator Paterson. I think it's much safer than
3 people resorting to illegal weapons and shooting
4 bullets in crowded places.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
8 Senator Johnson.
9 I'll take that into
10 consideration.
11 I think that -- on the bill, Mr.
12 President. I think Senator Johnson has really
13 addressed an issue that so often has been the
14 case in public policy debates which is that
15 there may be a law that prevents people from
16 using something, but there is a human need and
17 people are using it anyway.
18 Often there has been legislation
19 that can't get out of committee in this chamber
20 right now about some of those situations, but
21 this is just as important as any of those, and
22 there are people who honestly are not carrying
23 the cans of mace to try to harm anyone. They
3781
1 would use it in self-defense. I think Senator
2 Johnson has addressed a serious issue.
3 All I'm saying about the issue is
4 that this is still an extremely deadly weapon.
5 It is not deadly in the sense that it can cause
6 death, although it did in one case a few years
7 ago, but it is one that can cause serious bodily
8 harm.
9 As I pointed out earlier, two
10 weeks ago, 70 people were sent to a hospital off
11 of one spray of the substance, and if you look
12 at the alternative that Senator Johnson once had
13 in his legislation, I think that would be a
14 better way to go, and that would be to follow
15 the directive of the federal government in 1993
16 and to examine the fact that law enforcement
17 authorities don't just pass out the cans of mace
18 when you become a licensed law enforcement
19 officer. What they do is they offer some kind
20 of training, and that same training, as
21 cumbersome as it might would, I think, not only
22 allows for individuals to know how to use the
23 can -- the can of mace without injuring the
3782
1 wrong parties, but a point I really haven't
2 heard addressed before, it might help people to
3 learn how to use the device in order to actually
4 sustain the disarming of their adversary which
5 is something that is not automatically
6 accomplished. Just by the fact that a woman is
7 carrying a can in her pocketbook does not
8 necessarily mean that because she's attacked in
9 a frightening situation that she would
10 necessarily know how to use it. So it not only
11 might be a public safety benefit, but it also
12 might be a valuable tool for an individual who
13 might use the weapon in conflict to actually
14 learn.
15 Thank you, Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
17 recognizes Senator Farley.
18 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
19 President.
20 You know, what so many of us
21 often do, we send out a questionnaire on an
22 issue. I sent out a question on mace -- the use
23 of mace, and let me tell you, I have never
3783
1 received such mail in my life, bushel baskets
2 full of it, and almost exclusively from women
3 who urge that we legalize mace.
4 I've never seen an issue that was
5 so significant in my district, and I never
6 expected anything like that, and within that
7 mail, there was all kinds of people that were
8 actually saying they were carrying it in their
9 purse and they were going to continue to carry
10 it in their purse whether it was legal or not.
11 I think this is a very popular
12 issue, particularly among women, and I'm a
13 sponsor of this bill and I'm pleased to support
14 it and, I think, again, if anything was needed,
15 it was to bring us in line with the rest of the
16 nation and allow women in this state to carry
17 mace and to be able to use it to protect
18 themselves.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
20 recognizes Senator Volker.
21 Senator Gold, why do you rise? I
22 have you on the list, Senator.
23 SENATOR GOLD: I was just
3784
1 stretching my legs.
2 SENATOR VOLKER: Let me just say
3 a couple of things. First of all, I don't know
4 about this incident in New York City. I think I
5 did read something about it. I suspect it
6 wasn't mace at all, and I can assure anybody
7 that -- and I've used mace in years past, and it
8 takes a heck of a lot more than one little spray
9 to deal with problems as apparently happened in
10 the classroom.
11 The next thing is let me tell you
12 about training of police officers for mace.
13 Maybe they do some sort of training today. I
14 went to the police academy and they handed you
15 this canister and said, "You shoot it right at
16 the dog or right at the person's eyes." That
17 was the training. It was really huge training,
18 I can tell you.
19 The truth is the interesting part
20 of this bill is there was some opposition to it
21 also because a lot of the stuff that's coming
22 into this state, virtually all of which is
23 illegal, is -- gets through individuals and
3785
1 companies who do not want to deal with the State
2 Police. They would much rather deal with some
3 of the local people. For instance, they would
4 probably much rather have the city of New York
5 authorize it or whatever or some local agency.
6 There is an argument, in fact,
7 that this bill, once it is passed and hopefully
8 it will be this year that the Assembly will do
9 it, will have an inhibiting factor as far as the
10 various kinds of toxic materials that are being
11 distributed around in the guise of mace because
12 the State Police will set up the rules and
13 regulations for this type of mace, so to speak,
14 because a lot of the stuff that's being passed
15 around as mace is not mace at all. It's pepper
16 spray and various kinds of things.
17 I would remind everybody that a
18 few years ago when this bill was on the floor,
19 one of the co-sponsors of this bill, who is not
20 here now, opened up her purse and pointed out
21 that she had a canister of mace and a half a
22 dozen staff people who were in the chamber here
23 also pointed out that they had canisters of mace
3786
1 that they carried. The problem here is we're
2 being a little silly. A good deal, as we say,
3 of the known world is using some sort of
4 chemical agents in their possession. The
5 problem with trying to do training is that you
6 really don't need a lot of training to do -- to
7 use these sort of things. If you get it from
8 any kind of a reputable source, you get
9 instructions on it, which is about the best you
10 can probably hope for, but more that than, the
11 interesting thing is, if Senator Johnson's bill
12 passes, you would be able to have a better
13 control over what kind of material is
14 distributed in this state because, frankly, even
15 -- even though it's going to legalize mace, it
16 will not legalize some of the things that are
17 being used today, some of which, by the way, are
18 items that probably can do more damage really
19 than mace because they're not the kind of proper
20 things that should be used and it will actually
21 serve, I think, not only to legalize the use of
22 these -- these chemicals, but will also, in some
23 cases, help to find the right kind of chemicals
3787
1 that can be used by people who are seeking
2 self-defense.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Gold.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you.
6 I was going to ask Senator Farley
7 a question. I know he had all of that mail. I
8 was wondering how many of the -- he's opening
9 the rest of it -- I was wondering how many of
10 the people that wrote to him used the subways
11 every day?
12 I really have a little bit of a
13 problem with the concept of people running
14 through our New York City subways with "legal",
15 quotes-unquotes, mace, in their pockets, and the
16 civil liability and the lawsuits that are going
17 to come out of somebody saying that they were
18 protecting their purse and this and that, and it
19 wasn't their fault that the mace went by
20 somebody's eye and ear and hit three ladies that
21 were standing behind them.
22 I also wonder what kind of a
23 protection it is when you have it in your purse
3788
1 and somebody mugs you as they do, not by walking
2 up to you with a sign from 300 feet away saying,
3 "I'm coming to mug you", but from the rear and
4 grab your pocketbook, break the strap and
5 they're off and running, and I don't know how
6 mace works when it's not in your hand and it's
7 in the pocketbook and the fellow is running away
8 with it.
9 And as far as the question of
10 inhibition, Senator Volker made the comment that
11 we're doing it anyway, and if we have a statute,
12 that will inhibit, in some way, what gets sold
13 and not sold.
14 Senator Volker, I could wager
15 you, if that was legal, a dinner in the finest
16 restaurants of New York, the loser pays, that if
17 you come down to the city, we can walk around
18 and within seven or eight minutes of any place
19 you want to go, except if it's in the middle of
20 the park, we can buy mace. I mean, they sell it
21 out in the open right now. So why do you think
22 that if we had a statute, and the statute said
23 it's got to be approved by the State Police,
3789
1 they're going to stop selling what they're
2 selling now? They're selling it now and it's
3 illegal. It can't be any more illegal than
4 being illegal, and they're selling it, but I
5 think that the arguments in favor of this bill
6 really fall apart. The only thing you can say
7 is that somebody wants it and, gee, if they want
8 it and they're going to carry it, why don't we
9 do it, which is an interesting philosophy,
10 because I can tell you, there are things that
11 you wouldn't put on the books that people want.
12 There are things on the books that we've called
13 illegal that everybody does, and it's such a
14 terrible taboo that you won't even take it off
15 the statues to make it legal but everybody is
16 doing it anyway, and it's just not an answer.
17 It's legislation that people want to do it.
18 The law enforcement community in
19 New York City, as I understand it, says, "Don't
20 do it." The mayor says, "Don't do it." And I
21 don't see why we're rushing to do it. In
22 upstate New York, if that is some kind of a
23 problem -- if you can tell me that in upstate
3790
1 New York there are instances every day where
2 women are saving themselves because they -- they
3 rip out that mace and are able to protect
4 themselves, I might look at that, but it's all
5 -- it's all a big myth. It really is a big
6 myth.
7 On the one hand you're saying
8 that everybody is carrying it, and I remember
9 the Senator you're talking about and, since it
10 is illegal in this state, we shouldn't mention
11 Mary by name but -- I mean, I don't remember her
12 saying, "I not only carry it, but I want to tell
13 you on a Friday night and such and such and
14 such, I took that out and it saved me." I don't
15 know all the instances of people being saved.
16 It's a myth.
17 It's the same myth, by the way,
18 that the shotgun manufacturers use when they
19 sell these shotguns with a little handle and
20 they tell them how wonderful home protectors
21 they are, and if I said would you support
22 legislation that has people report when they use
23 it so we can get all the statistics on all the
3791
1 people that have saved their lives with it,
2 they're opposed to that because it's a myth.
3 It's a sales myth.
4 I think it's enough for me not
5 being an enforcement professional that the mayor
6 of my city who is, if nothing else, certainly
7 someone with enforcement background, says it's
8 the wrong way to go for the subways and the
9 streets of my city.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
11 recognizes Senator DiCarlo.
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Johnson.
15 SENATOR JOHNSON: After Senator
16 DiCarlo.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 DiCarlo.
19 SENATOR DiCARLO: Thank you, Mr.
20 President.
21 I would like to commend Senator
22 Johnson for the bill of which I am a
23 co-sponsor. I also happen to represent Brooklyn
3792
1 and Staten Island, portions of both counties. I
2 also happen to be a supporter of the mayor as I
3 have always been, but we're not always right on
4 every issue, and I disagree with my mayor on
5 this issue about mace.
6 I stand in support of it and, as
7 Senator Farley has said, I have gotten a lot of
8 mail on this subject, and most of the mail I get
9 on this subject comes from women from my
10 district who want the right to carry mace to
11 defend themselves, especially in New York City
12 -- especially in New York City where the women
13 find themselves more often than not the victims
14 of crime and attacks.
15 Now, I don't see why there's such
16 an argument about this, and it's said that we
17 shouldn't allow them to carry it, especially on
18 the subways in New York City, but the women in
19 my district want the right to carry mace. The
20 women in my district, by and large, are not the
21 ones committing the crimes in New York City, and
22 I support this legislation, not only for the
23 women who want to carry it, but for the fathers
3793
1 and the mothers who have daughters who have to
2 go through some of our streets in New York City,
3 and even if it just makes them feel safer, I
4 support it.
5 So I support this legislation for
6 the residents of my district who happen to live
7 in New York City and I urge its passage.
8 Thank you.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Johnson.
11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
12 Mr. President, I would like to correct a couple
13 of misstatements that were made here, I'm sure
14 innocently by people who are arguing on the
15 other side of this issue.
16 I would like you to know that the
17 New York City PBA supports this bill, Suffolk
18 County Police Department, New York Federation of
19 Police, New York State Association of Chiefs of
20 Police, communications workers, teamsters union,
21 SUNY Buffalo, public safety, New York City
22 Transit PBA, International Chiefs of Police
23 Association and the Police Conference of New
3794
1 York which formerly opposed it has withdrawn
2 their opposition and, in fact, Ed Guzdek,
3 president of the Police Conference in New York
4 in a statement here released to a newspaper on
5 March 2nd, 1995 said his group, which represents
6 214 police unions, tried for years to block
7 legislation. Opposition was finally withdrawn
8 last year after amendments ensured that
9 distribution of the sprays would be regulated
10 and greater penalties would be imposed if used
11 against an officer. So we really don't have a
12 lot of opposition from the police, as far as I
13 know.
14 We have very strong support from
15 a lot of newspapers, including the New York
16 Daily News, New York Newsday, Schenectady
17 papers, other papers upstate and, of course, New
18 York Post columnist Amy Pagnozzi, Ray Kerrison
19 who said -- like anybody -- "Anybody who doesn't
20 vote for this bill", they said "like are kind of
21 slow to catch on what's going on in our
22 society."
23 And a couple of other quotes in
3795
1 this article were kind of interesting. This was
2 a discussion, a young lady in the Academy of
3 Self-defense in New Rochelle said that carrying
4 it is illegal and she knows it but she said that
5 doesn't worry her. "I would rather face the
6 judge on that than be on a slab somewhere", she
7 said.
8 Another kind of interesting quote
9 from another person at that academy, Tommy May,
10 the owner of the academy said that it's against
11 the law. He said, "I've gotten my students mace
12 and pepper spray for years." He said, "It's
13 against the law but it's also against the law to
14 get raped, robbed and attacked." So he felt
15 that -- not to worry about it.
16 Mr. President, people are talking
17 about illegal sprays being sold now. If this
18 bill becomes law, there will be legal sprays
19 which can be bought as opposed to there's no
20 legal sprays now. These legal sprays will have
21 the imprimatur of the State Police in coopera
22 tion with the Department of Correctional
23 Services, Department of Health, and they're
3796
1 going to help develop standards of legal agents
2 that are going to be bought in this state.
3 Therefore, not only will we not worry because
4 now they can enforce against illegal products,
5 which right now obviously there's nothing else
6 but illegal products out there.
7 The other argument, I think,
8 would be that persons now say -- we said a lot
9 of young professional women are buying it, other
10 people, but there are a lot of people who are so
11 law abiding that they wouldn't think to buy it
12 because they know it's illegal and they're
13 becoming then unable to get something to protect
14 themselves because they're so law abiding and
15 very likely to become a victim of a crime. If
16 there's a legal product out there, that problem
17 wouldn't exist.
18 You know, I -- I really tell
19 everyone I've had this bill for a long time, and
20 here's a letter, May 31st, 1989 sent to me by
21 John J. Poklemba, Director of Criminal Justice
22 Services for Mario Cuomo, and this got me so
23 mad, I don't even like to mention it, but I have
3797
1 to mention it again. One of the things he says
2 here which turned me off, it should turn
3 everybody off.
4 He says, "Furthermore, although
5 these chemicals pose far less risk of serious
6 injury than firearms, their inappropriate use
7 can be quite hazardous to the user and on
8 occasion cause physical injury to would-be
9 assailants."
10 Okay. Give me a break.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the last section.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Leichter.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah. Mr.
17 President, I think Senators Gold and Paterson
18 make some strong arguments, but I must tell you
19 on balance, I agree with Senator Johnson.
20 I've come to the view that we're
21 probably better off if we legalize and control
22 mace than if we don't, and I know I used to
23 argue against this bill a couple of years ago.
3798
1 I've given it a lot of thought, and I think that
2 maybe one of the reasons that people sort of
3 instinctively may be against this bill as the
4 mayor of New York is, is because I think we tend
5 to analogize it too much to the use of
6 handguns.
7 It really is a different
8 substance, and I appreciate that there's a
9 balancing involved. I also understand there's a
10 certain risk of misuse, and when Senator Gold
11 says somebody in the subway may use it
12 inappropriately or use it maliciously and then
13 claim he or she were defending themselves -- and
14 there is that risk, but I think if you balance
15 this against the many people, particularly
16 women, who do feel a need to protect themselves
17 and understanding and realizing that this is a
18 non-lethal substance and, indeed, as Senator
19 Johnson, I think, rightly points out, if it is
20 under the supervision and control of the State
21 Police, we will actually be able to avoid having
22 the more dangerous type of chemical used. I
23 assume the State Police will use the sort of
3799
1 strength that will disable somebody without
2 causing any physical harm.
3 So I think having in mind the
4 fact, unfortunately, that in our society there
5 is a need to protect oneself, and this is a way
6 of doing it really in a non-lethal way, I'm
7 going to support this bill.
8 Senator Johnson, your persuasion
9 was very strong.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary will read the last question.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
13 act shall take effect on the 1st day of
14 November.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
16 roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
19 the results when tabulated.
20 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
21 the negative on Calendar Number 235 are Senators
22 Abate, Connor, Gold, Smith and Senator Waldon.
23 Ayes 52, nays 5.
3800
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is passed.
3 Senator Galiber.
4 SENATOR GALIBER: Mr. President,
5 may I have unanimous consent to be recorded in
6 the negative on Calendar Number 60, Bill 773?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
8 objection, Senator Galiber will be recorded in
9 the negative on Calendar Number 60.
10 Senator Leichter.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
12 may I also have unanimous consent to be voted in
13 the negative on Calendar Number 60?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
15 objection, Senator Leichter will be recorded in
16 the negative on Calendar Number 60.
17 The Secretary will continue to
18 call the controversial calendar.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 352, by Member of the Assembly Schimminger,
21 substituted earlier today, Assembly Print
22 6084-C, an act to amend the State Finance Law,
23 the Banking Law and Chapter 705 of the Laws of
3801
1 1993.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Saland, an explanation has been asked for by
5 Senator Paterson.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
7 President.
8 Mr. President, this is a
9 three-year extender of New York State's Link
10 Deposit Program. It's been a very highly
11 successful program, created some 8,000 jobs over
12 the course of the past couple of years since its
13 inception at a relatively nominal cost, some
14 $750,000. That's arrived at basically by
15 determining the difference between what the
16 amount of the monies deposited by the state. To
17 date it's been limited to commercial banks. The
18 state agrees to take two or three points less,
19 two or three percent less on its loans provided
20 that the lender will use those dollars for
21 economic development in the respective regions
22 in which those banks are located.
23 As I said, the law to date has
3802
1 been extremely successful. The legislation
2 initially was introduced by Senator Bruno.
3 Senator Farley and I have worked rather closely
4 since last year on trying to expand this bill to
5 include the thrifts. Thrifts are included in
6 this bill for the first time. The bill
7 basically is intended to deal with relatively
8 small -- smaller loans and it's the type of
9 program that will comport well with the existing
10 commercials that are currently available in this
11 program.
12 I believe that there is no
13 opposition to this bill. It represents the
14 culmination of a number of months of
15 negotiations between ourselves, the Assembly and
16 the Governor and, as part and parcel of those
17 negotiations, I would like to thank my staff in
18 the person of Darrin Ocke and Senator Farley's
19 staff in the person of Peter Edman.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Paterson.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr.
23 President. No, there's no opposition to this
3803
1 bill, Senator Saland. I just had a question -
2 in fact, I haven't opposed any of these bills
3 that I have asked questions on today.
4 I'm just trying to stimulate
5 discussion so that when I get paid this week, I
6 can feel that I earned my salary.
7 Would Senator Saland yield for a
8 question?
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Saland, do you yield to Senator Paterson?
11 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr.
12 President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 Senator yields.
15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Point of
16 information.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
18 doesn't recognize Senator Libous. (Laughter).
19 The Senator yields, Senator
20 Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
22 Saland, is there a turf battle between the
23 savings banks and savings and loans and the
3804
1 credit unions, because I noticed that, in trying
2 to ameliorate the problem of -- there have
3 already been 169 instances where the bill has
4 proved very successful, but only six in New York
5 City and only two in the North Country. I was
6 wondering why you did not extend the legislation
7 to include the credit unions?
8 SENATOR SALAND: Well, I wouldn't
9 call it a turf battle. I would say that, given
10 the nature of the loans that have been made
11 under this program, you're basically talking
12 about -- I won't call it definition, but by
13 practice in the industry what are considered to
14 be smaller loans. The cap, I believe, is $1.5
15 million. The commercial banking industry was
16 very much involved, particularly the smaller
17 independent banks, in putting this program
18 together.
19 Well, with some of the things
20 we've done in the banking industry over the
21 course of the past decade or so, there certainly
22 has been a greater access to these types of
23 programs among thrifts, savings and loans, than
3805
1 had previously existed, and we believe that this
2 is certainly consistent with what we have been
3 doing over the course of the past decade, and
4 this is an expansion which, in some areas of our
5 state, is particularly important because,
6 particularly in upstate communities, there seems
7 to be many of those communities in which the
8 principal lender, the one providing commercial
9 loans, are savings institutions and to date,
10 credit unions really haven't been in the
11 commercial loan business. They may make loans
12 to some of their depositors that are in the
13 nature of commercial loans but they're doing it
14 generally on an individual basis.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Paterson.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
18 much, Senator Saland.
19 On the bill, Mr. President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Paterson on the bill.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: I think that
23 if credit unions would expand the type of loan
3806
1 service that would be extremely helpful in a lot
2 of communities around the state, certainly in
3 the one that I represent. Credit unions are
4 extremely instrumental in issuing loans and if
5 public monies were invested at a low rate of
6 interest in those areas, it would be helpful. I
7 hope in the future that that will be considered.
8 That concludes my remarks, Mr.
9 President. You can yield to Senator Libous now
10 if he'd like to talk. (Laughter).
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He's on a
12 long list.
13 Senator Galiber.
14 SENATOR GALIBER: Would the
15 Senator yield for two just two questions?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Saland, do you yield to Senator Galiber?
18 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr.
19 President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Senator yields.
22 SENATOR GALIBER: One of Senator
23 Paterson's -
3807
1 SENATOR SALAND: Senator -- is
2 that list so long that we might not get to
3 Senator Libous, Mr. President?
4 SENATOR GALIBER: I will try to
5 stop him another way. I'm not getting paid next
6 week, okay? Maybe that'll stop him, but I'm not
7 quite sure.
8 Senator, this has been an ongoing
9 war, so to speak, quote "turf battle" or no, the
10 commercials and the thrifts or the savings, and
11 at one time we recall that they were interested
12 in doing a little insurance and a little -- a
13 couple of other things somewhere.
14 Could you tell me the economic
15 value that you mentioned before -- and I'll tell
16 you why before you answer the question. Those
17 of us who have been around for a while can
18 recall when the thrifts would show us on TV, a
19 big safe, and the safe would open up and there
20 was our community, and they were telling us what
21 they were doing for our community and, as it
22 developed in the community that I live in, it
23 was doing absolutely nothing. So for that
3808
1 reason, I would like you to tell me what they
2 have been doing up to date from an economic
3 standpoint, and I'm going to vote no on the
4 bill, not because it doesn't have good merit.
5 It's just by way of a small way of saying it's a
6 negative vote because I think they can really do
7 something in communities such as I represent and
8 they can do it with the credit unions, and it's
9 not a new thought because the credit unions for
10 some time have been trying to get into the
11 business of doing some of the things that the
12 commercials and the thrifts are doing.
13 So if I can get an explanation
14 for that, Senator, that's good.
15 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you,
16 Senator.
17 And I would certainly be more
18 than happy to delve into the issue of expansion
19 of authority of commercial -- I'm sorry -- of
20 credit unions, although I don't believe this is
21 the forum for it, and I'm sure Senator Farley
22 would be more than happy to discuss that with
23 you at greater length, I'm sure within the
3809
1 context of greater reforms, there will be
2 consideration given to the interest of credit
3 unions into expanding, in effect, their
4 services.
5 What I mentioned in my earlier
6 comments was that this program to date has
7 proven to be a successful program. It is
8 certainly one of those successful public/
9 private ventures where the state, through the
10 medium of providing -- depositing monies in
11 local banks, agreeing to accept less interest,
12 two to three points less interest than they
13 would receive as the then prevailing rate,
14 provided those institutions will use those
15 dollars for economic development programs has
16 basically helped spawn jobs, has helped create
17 economic development, and the figures I
18 mentioned in my earlier comments were somewhere
19 in the area of some 8,000 jobs over the two-year
20 period, and the expense associated with it is
21 approximately $750,000, which nets out to less
22 than $90 a job, if you want to look at it that
23 way. So it has been a successful program and,
3810
1 as I mentioned again with -- with the
2 backgrounds of the thrifts and dealing with the
3 commercial loans and being, in effect -
4 providing many of these same services under some
5 of the very same responsibilities, being
6 regulated like a bank, not as a credit union, we
7 felt that this would be an appropriate expansion
8 at this time.
9 SENATOR GALIBER: I'm sorry.
10 Could I ask just one more?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Saland, do you yield to one more question?
13 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Mr.
14 President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Senator yields.
17 SENATOR GALIBER: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 Senator Paterson mentioned 169
20 as a figure. I'm not sure that's where -- we
21 have proof that this has been working. Would
22 that be a fair number?
23 SENATOR SALAND: I couldn't
3811
1 verify. I would be more than happy to provide
2 you with that information.
3 SENATOR GALIBER: Not really.
4 169- is irrelevant. The question I would like
5 to ask is how many has the city of New York been
6 the beneficiary? And I keep throwing these
7 questions at you because we had the experience
8 where we bailed the thrifts out some time ago,
9 and they were in bad shape, one bank in the city
10 of New York, Manhattan, and I think in Senator
11 Paterson district's, Freedom National. They
12 didn't see fit to save that one bank that we
13 have in Senator Paterson's district, and I
14 thought perhaps you could tell me whether this
15 new concept is beneficial with the 8,000 jobs -
16 I'm happy to see that -- whether there's been
17 any primary beneficiary to the city of New York
18 in general, to Manhattan and Bronx in
19 particular.
20 SENATOR SALAND: I don't know if
21 I could break it down for you by borough,
22 Senator Galiber, but to date, it's been somewhat
23 under-utilized in the City. Through December
3812
1 30th of this past year, there had been some six
2 of these link deposit loans produced in the
3 City.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
12 the results when tabulated.
13 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President,
14 to explain my vote.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
16 recognizes Senator Farley to explain his vote.
17 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 I just want to applaud Senator
20 Saland for working on this piece of legislation
21 which I support and which I'm a sponsor of.
22 This does provide, Senator
23 Galiber, some economic opportunity. I think
3813
1 more will be done. It puts a very large part of
2 the banking industry into this link deposit
3 program to provide for some economic development
4 and I think it's positive. It's an example of
5 the banking industry working together, the
6 thrift industry and the commercial bankers,
7 historically -- and you have been here long
8 enough to remember when they didn't go to the
9 same party, but they are working together on
10 this, I think to the benefit of all people in
11 New York State.
12 Are credit unions part of this?
13 No, they're not. There's problems with that.
14 We're going to be working on that. Credit union
15 powers are something that are going to have to
16 be addressed, but there's a lot of factors that
17 will go into that, but this is a good bill. I
18 urge its passage and I'm pleased to support it.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Farley in the affirmative. Announce the
21 results.
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays 1.
23 Senator Galiber recorded in the negative.
3814
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is passed.
3 The Chair would note that
4 completes the controversial calendar and also
5 the Chair would note that it's been rather noisy
6 in here today and I'm sure it's because of the
7 buzz of all of you in welcoming our client,
8 Howard Babbush, back to the chamber, and I would
9 like to join in that.
10 Howard, we're glad that you've
11 recovered well enough to be with us today. Nice
12 to have you here.
13 (Applause.)
14 Senator Skelos.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. Mr.
16 President, it's wonderful that we ended up in a
17 timely fashion of the controversial calendar.
18 That's the good news.
19 The not-so-good news is that
20 we're -- there will be a meeting of the Finance
21 Committee at 5:45 p.m. this evening, followed by
22 a meeting of the Rules Committee in the Majority
23 Conference Room and then there will be session
3815
1 at 6:00 p.m. to take up the emergency pay bill
2 and the social security payment bill at that
3 time.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
5 will be an immediate -
6 SENATOR SKELOS: If Senator
7 Stafford releases them -- okay.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Acting Majority Leader has indicated there will
10 be a Senate Finance Committee meeting at 5:45 in
11 Room 332, the Majority Conference Room, to be
12 followed immediately by a Rules Committee, and
13 that the Senate will come to order again at 6:00
14 p.m. for the purpose of taking up two emergency
15 pay bills.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. Now, is
17 there any housekeeping at the time?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We have a
19 substitution at the desk, Senator Skelos. Take
20 that up at this time. Ask the Secretary to
21 read.
22 THE SECRETARY: On page number
23 12, Senator Lack moves to discharge from the
3816
1 Committee on Investigations, Assembly Print 3764
2 and substitute it for its identical bill,
3 Calendar Number 147.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 substitution is ordered.
6 Senator Skelos.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any
8 other housekeeping at this time? If not, the
9 Senate will stand in recess until 6:00 p.m.,
10 Finance Committee meeting at 5:45, followed by
11 Rules Committee in Room 332 of the Capitol.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Senate stands in recess until 6:00 p.m.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
16 recognizes Senator Skelos.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: There's no
18 Majority conference at this time, no Majority
19 conference.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No
21 Majority conference is scheduled at this time.
22 (Whereupon, at 4:14 p.m., the
23 Senate recessed.)
3817
1 (The Senate reconvened at 6:53
2 p.m.)
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
4 at this time would recognize Senator Skelos for
5 an announcement.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr.
7 President. There will be an immediate
8 conference of the Majority in Room 332 of the
9 Capitol, and it's anticipated that the Senate
10 will reconvene at approximately 8:00 p.m.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
12 will be an immediate meeting of the Majority
13 Conference in the Majority Conference Room, Room
14 332. At this time, it's anticipated that the
15 reconvening of the Senate will be at approx
16 imately 8:00 p.m.
17 (Whereupon at 6:54 p.m., the
18 Senate recessed.)
19 (The Senate reconvened at 8:15
20 p.m.)
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Senate will come to order.
23 The Chair recognizes Senator
3818
1 Bruno.
2 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
3 can we return to reports of standing committees?
4 I believe there's a report from the Rules
5 Committee at the desk.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
7 a report at the desk, Senator Bruno. We will
8 return to reports of standing committees; ask
9 the Secretary to read.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
11 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
12 following bills directly to third reading:
13 Senate Print 3957, Budget Bill, an act making an
14 appropriation for the support of government.
15 Senate Bill 3958, by the
16 Committee on Rules, an act making an
17 appropriation for the support of government.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Bruno.
20 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
21 move we adopt the report of the Rules Committee.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 motion is to adopt the report of the Rules
3819
1 Committee. All those in favor signify by saying
2 aye.
3 (Response of "Aye".)
4 Opposed, nay.
5 (There was no response.)
6 The report is adopted.
7 Senator Bruno.
8 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
9 offer up the following amendments to Calendar
10 Number 360, Senate Print 3957-A, and ask that
11 the bill retain its place on the Third Reading
12 Calendar.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
14 objection, the amendments are received and
15 adopted. The bill will retain its place on the
16 Third Reading Calendar.
17 Senator Bruno.
18 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
19 can we call up Calendar Number 360 at this
20 time?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Secretary will read Calendar Number 360.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3820
1 360, Budget Bill, Senate Print 3957-A, an act
2 making an appropriation for the support of
3 government.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Bruno.
6 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, is
7 there a message of necessity and appropriation
8 at the desk?
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Bruno, I am informed by the Secretary that there
11 is a message of necessity and appropriation at
12 the desk.
13 SENATOR BRUNO: I move we accept
14 the message, Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 motion is to accept the message of necessity and
17 appropriation at the desk. All those in favor
18 signify by saying aye.
19 (Response of "Aye".)
20 Opposed, nay.
21 (There was no response.)
22 The message is accepted.
23 The Secretary will read the last
3821
1 section.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Bruno, an explanation has been asked for by
5 Senator Paterson.
6 SENATOR BRUNO: This, Mr.
7 President, is the bill that allows all public
8 employees to be paid with the exception of
9 legislative employees and executive employees
10 other than those that must be paid according to
11 the national Fair Labor Standards Act.
12 Senator Stafford, the chair of
13 Finance, may have something to add to that
14 explanation.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Stafford, you would like to expound on the
17 explanation?
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: It is
19 impossible to improve upon the explanation.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Paterson.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Would Senator
23 Bruno yield for a question?
3822
1 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
2 President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Bruno yields for a question.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Bruno,
6 who is going to make the determination of who is
7 covered by the Federal Fair Labor Standards
8 Act?
9 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, the
10 original version of this bill had left part of
11 that decision up to the Governor, but we had a
12 discussion with the Governor and with others and
13 have offered up an amendment that now, in the
14 enabling legislation today and tonight, makes
15 that decision so there is no decision to be
16 made. It will be part of the legislation that
17 is before us. We changed the original bill
18 through this amendment.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator
22 Bruno, for instance, would public employees all
23 be covered by the Federal Fair Labor Standards
3823
1 Act?
2 SENATOR BRUNO: All the -- all
3 the public employees that work for the state
4 will be paid according to this enabling
5 legislation, all.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
9 it's my understanding that that's not true.
10 Now, of course, it's my understanding based on
11 the fact that this amendment has just been
12 offered up and so it's -- it's certainly our
13 feeling from just a perusal of the records of
14 employees that there will be at least 1,000
15 employees of the Public Employees Federation,
16 for instance, that union that are excluded from
17 the legislation.
18 So, in other words, going back to
19 my original question, who is going to make the
20 determination as to who can get paid and who
21 can't get paid? If we see the first piece of
22 legislation -- what I'm asking is that, in the
23 amendment, it's not clear and I'm just wondering
3824
1 if you can make that clear for us.
2 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. I think and
3 believe that the legislation before us very
4 clearly states that those employees that are
5 covered under the Fair Labor Standards Act that
6 work for the state will be paid.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: If Senator
11 Bruno would yield for another question.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Bruno, do you yield to another question?
14 (Senator Bruno nods head.)
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Bruno,
16 what we are having right here in this dialogue
17 is a disagreement of the like that could exist
18 theoretically in the next couple of days in
19 terms of who is actually eligible and who is not
20 eligible. And so in situations like that, there
21 has to be a broad supervisory power that renders
22 a decision as to who actually gets paid and who
23 doesn't get paid, and the reason I asked the
3825
1 question is because we are hoping that, as
2 difficult a situation as this may be, that at
3 least there will be a fairer standard that will
4 override the determination of who gets paid and
5 who doesn't.
6 We have a Constitution that
7 certainly speaks to this issue and it speaks to
8 the separation of powers between the executive
9 and legislative branch, and in this particular
10 situation, I'm trying to protect against that
11 constitutional protection being violated; and so
12 what I'm trying to figure out is who is going to
13 decide who would fall under the Fair Labor
14 Standards Act and who would not?
15 SENATOR BRUNO: It's my
16 understanding that the normal procedure in this
17 state, if there is any controversy at all, that
18 that decision would first be made by the
19 Comptroller of New York State and the
20 Comptroller would make a judgment based on this
21 enabling legislation as to who would get paid
22 and who wouldn't get paid, and if people weren't
23 satisfied with the Comptroller's judgments, then
3826
1 I would guess they would have recourse through
2 the courts.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Paterson.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
6 a voice in my ear said "explanation is
7 satisfactory", but the voice sounded remarkably
8 distinctly like that of Senator Bruno, but what
9 I am continuing to ask is are we going to put
10 the Comptroller of the state of New York in the
11 position of having to rule on what is actually a
12 federal standard when we are passing the
13 legislation here at -- well, it's some time
14 before the UCLA-Arkansas game and it's two days
15 before the paychecks are supposedly to be
16 released. And so what I'm saying is that this
17 is remarkably ambiguous at a time when, just two
18 hours ago, we had another piece of legislation
19 which the Majority Leader points out needed to
20 be amended, and that piece of legislation would
21 have given that authority to the Secretary of
22 the Governor.
23 At this point, it leaves it very
3827
1 open as to which staff members are going to be
2 policy making and which are not. And, of
3 course, that's going to create a situation where
4 there's an imbalance in the actual payment of
5 different parties based on who they work for
6 and, in my opinion, if we're all going to go
7 through this process that the Governor has
8 promised us we would go through were we not to
9 pass the budget on April 1st as he stated in his
10 state-of-the-state message on January the 5th,
11 then we should go through it equally.
12 Now, the legislators, that's not
13 a problem. We understand the Governor's
14 concern. We passed budgets late on occasion in
15 the past, and we should endure the hardship, but
16 we're talking about staff members trickling down
17 as low as interns that we're not going to pay,
18 interns who make $110 a week. And so, I think
19 it should be very clear and it should be
20 scrupulously in detail that we would come to a
21 decision before we pass this legislation as to
22 exactly who is going to make the determination
23 of the federal standard of what complies with
3828
1 the Federal Labor Standards Act, and that's why
2 I'm continuing to just try to arrive at a firm
3 determination as to what that standard will be.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Bruno.
6 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator, if I
7 might.
8 Mr. President, Senator Paterson
9 raises some very legitimate concerns and some
10 very legitimate questions. We just received
11 this legislation, have been reviewing it with
12 counsels as you have. An amendment was
13 prepared. I would -- and I respect the
14 questions that you are raising and I am not sure
15 that we can accurately reflect the intent.
16 So, Mr. President, I would ask my
17 colleagues on that side of the aisle to go along
18 with my colleagues on this side of the aisle in
19 that I am going to describe broadly what is in
20 this legislation and what the intent is again.
21 And I will assure my colleagues in this chamber
22 that it is critical that this get done tonight
23 so that the work force can be paid. We're told
3829
1 by the Comptroller's office that the process
2 must take place starting tonight or people will
3 miss paychecks on Wednesday, but I want to
4 assure you, Senator, and the rest of my
5 colleagues that if -- we will review this
6 through the night and in the morning and, if
7 there are omissions in this bill, we will
8 correct them tomorrow in this chamber so that we
9 don't hold up the paychecks of the state work
10 force, and I'm sure that there isn't anyone in
11 here that wants to accomplish that.
12 So, Mr. President, what this
13 legislation does, it purports to allow all state
14 employees to be paid on payday this Wednesday
15 with the exclusion of the executive employees
16 and the executive branch and the legislative -
17 Legislature employees with the exception of
18 those that are lined in specifically such as the
19 messengers in both houses who are among some of
20 them disabled who work here, nurses, librarians
21 and any other employees that must be paid
22 according to the Fair Labor Standard Act, and
23 that's the amendment that we have posed. Only
3830
1 those people will be paid. Others in the
2 executive branch and in this Legislature will
3 not be paid.
4 Mr. President, that's the
5 understanding that we have of the bill before us
6 with the amendment that we have posed. I will
7 repeat again, if corrections are necessary
8 because there are some omissions or commissions
9 other than what we are stating here for the
10 record -- this is being recorded -- for the
11 public record, we will work to correct it by
12 statute in separate chapter tomorrow.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Paterson.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
16 we are in a situation right now where a number
17 of employees, whether they be government
18 employees or the staff members of elected
19 officials who nobody seems to want to defend or
20 even the interns of elected officials are put in
21 the precarious position of not knowing when
22 their paychecks are coming.
23 Now, one thing we don't disagree
3831
1 on; they all worked, and this particular check
2 does not relate to any time after April 1st. It
3 relates to the dates March 8th to March 22nd,
4 dates that were worked, dates that existed in
5 the 1994-1995 fiscal year, and so speaking
6 personally, I don't see any reason that anybody
7 should not be paid, but being that there are a
8 number of individuals who will not be paid and
9 excluding the legislators, because we understand
10 that we didn't pass the budget on April 1st; it
11 was our constitutional duty and we'll bear the
12 burden, but we're now talking about staff
13 members. They don't have a vote in this house,
14 and we're now talking about public employees who
15 aren't even staff who the Governor said just a
16 few weeks ago, promised he would not suspend
17 their paychecks, although he originally said he
18 was going to do that.
19 So I'm saying, in this confusion,
20 the one thing that I can rely on is that the
21 Majority Leader has not run this particular
22 house in a fashion where there has been any
23 doubt, and if he offers his word, obviously I
3832
1 take his word that he really intends to make
2 sure that if there are any errors they would be
3 corrected. He has run this -- these sessions on
4 time every day until just now, and so I would
5 assume that there is some confusion on this, and
6 I don't want to be in any way antagonistic to
7 the fact that this is a difficult situation.
8 The paychecks are due Wednesday and I understand
9 but, Senator, how are you expecting us to vote
10 for a piece of legislation that we don't know
11 tomorrow may have been a very bad vote and a
12 number of individuals may not get paid on
13 Wednesday and they will be knocking down our
14 doors asking why we voted for the legislation.
15 So, although I understand the
16 discrepancies in the whole situation, I cannot
17 understand why we have to vote on this piece of
18 legislation right now when it is eminently clear
19 we don't know who the broad supervisory power
20 that would render the decision as to who would
21 comply with the Federal Labor Standards Act and
22 we probably don't even know which employees are
23 eligible and which are not in the first place if
3833
1 you look just at the face of this bill.
2 And so my question is why the
3 cursory nature of the need to have this
4 legislation implemented at this time? Why don't
5 we just wait until tomorrow, because I don't see
6 how many of us in good conscience can vote for
7 this bill with the situation as it stands right
8 now where we are making a decision in the dark.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Bruno.
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
12 hear my colleague and, again, I respect what the
13 good Senator has to say.
14 If there's confusion in the
15 legislation, I am suggesting again, the
16 legislation speaks for itself. The Comptroller
17 of this state has the responsibility to
18 interpret the legislation as relates to what
19 we're doing here tonight, and the Comptroller of
20 this state has 20 -- 30 attorneys whose work it
21 is to deal with these issues, and they will make
22 judgments. Our counsels have been conferring
23 with them, and we are told very emphatically
3834
1 that, if we don't do this bill tonight, people
2 will not get paid, a number of them, on
3 Wednesday, and those that already have the
4 automatic deposits, that will not happen because
5 we didn't do this by 4:00 o'clock today. So
6 there's going to be a great inconvenience to
7 tens of thousands of people in this state. So
8 the only way to avoid the inconvenience to a
9 couple hundred thousand people out there is to
10 do this bill tonight.
11 We will work with the
12 Comptroller's office with an interpretation to
13 make sure that what we are saying for the record
14 is -- as this legislation intends is what is
15 actually enacted. Whatever corrections need to
16 take place, we'll be prepared to take up
17 tomorrow when we're in session.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Paterson.
20 SENATOR BRUNO: And, Mr.
21 President, we can, you know, debate this for the
22 two hours and I'm not sure that -
23 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm not trying
3835
1 to debate this for two hours. In fact, I only
2 have one other question, just one last question,
3 as Lieutenant Colombo would say.
4 Senator Bruno, I've got to ask
5 you this. The Comptroller could have
6 theoretically decided he was going to issue
7 these checks anyway. He could have decided
8 that, but the checks have to be co-signed
9 through the department of the treasury. The
10 Comptroller didn't have the authority over the
11 department of the treasury to determine whether
12 or not those checks would be co-signed. And so
13 under that same rule that governed the
14 Comptroller on the checks that are coming out
15 for all employees of the state of New York, I
16 submit to you that, if the Comptroller rendered
17 a decision based on the federal Labor Standards
18 Act, that the department of the treasury didn't
19 have to adhere to it. And so I'm just
20 suggesting to you that I don't know that it's
21 certain because it doesn't say that in the
22 amendment to this bill, that the Comptroller has
23 that authority. So I'm just going to ask one
3836
1 last time. I'm going to sit down. I will not
2 get back up. I just want to know whether -
3 where we are deriving the Comptroller's
4 authority other than the broad authority he's
5 given in the Constitution which, in my opinion,
6 would not apply in this case.
7 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, my
8 very learned counsel informs me that, whether or
9 not the Comptroller has the authority to do
10 anything dealing with allowing state work force
11 to be processed and paid, is a question that may
12 end up getting answered only in the courts if we
13 don't do this enabling legislation.
14 Since our year ended March 31st,
15 April 1st starts a brand new year, and we have
16 to give the Comptroller the authorization to do
17 this appropriation because there is an
18 appropriation with this bill and that can only
19 happen through the Legislature, both houses,
20 signed by the Governor to allow it to happen.
21 If that doesn't happen, the question -- it's
22 questionable on whether the Comptroller can take
23 any action.
3837
1 And I didn't want to mention this
2 before because I don't want to prolong the
3 debate, Mr. President, but we, in this house,
4 had hoped that this whole conversation would be
5 unnecessary and that's why we passed the budget
6 by March 31st and had the Assembly saw fit to
7 pass the budget by March 31st, this conversation
8 -- and I don't say this in any way other than
9 as a matter of fact, this conversation would be
10 unnecessary but -- thank you, Senator.
11 I think my colleagues agreed
12 that, had we had a budget in place, then we
13 wouldn't have to be even discussing this, and I
14 feel very proudly, Mr. President, that it's
15 necessary for us to be making judgments and
16 distinctions on what public employees get paid
17 because it creates pain for a lot of people, and
18 that's not anything that any of us want to
19 inflict on anyone. I'm well aware of that, and
20 we want to do our best to avoid it, and the best
21 way to avoid it is to get a budget in place in
22 in state because, if that should happen by some
23 miracle tomorrow, then, guess what?
3838
1 Legislators get paid and
2 legislative staffs get paid and the executives
3 get paid in this state. All we have to do is
4 get a budget in place. We passed a budget, and
5 it would be nice if it could happen in the other
6 house. And I say that, Mr. President, only
7 because we are trying to move the process
8 forward.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Gold. Senator Connor, I have a list going.
11 Senator Connor, why do you rise?
12 SENATOR GOLD: Certainly, with
13 all due respect, I would yield to Senator
14 Connor.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
16 recognizes Senator Connor.
17 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 When I see this legislation and
20 hear the discussion and I know the interest, the
21 other one -- I think I know the other one, but
22 if anyone in this house, as I read this, I'm
23 sure that on the second floor of the Governor's
3839
1 office, secretaries, clerical personnel will be
2 paid for the work they did in March. We'll be
3 paid on Wednesday but, as I understand this,
4 it's my information that virtually no one who
5 works for the Legislature is covered by the Fair
6 Labor Standards Act.
7 So, therefore, secretaries,
8 clerical personnel who work for the Legislature
9 will not be paid on Wednesday for the work they
10 did for the two weeks in March which is the pay
11 period to be compensated on Wednesday; and I say
12 why? What did they have to do with passing the
13 budget?
14 I look at this list the Governor
15 submitted to the Comptroller, of this staff that
16 won't be paid and missing from here, going to be
17 paid are the unit chiefs in the Division of the
18 Budget, 104-, $105,000 a year, unit chiefs in
19 the Division of the Budget. I hope they have
20 something to do with the budget process for that
21 kind of money, and I ask my colleagues, they
22 will be paid on Wednesday? But your intern
23 won't? They will be paid on Wednesday 104,000,
3840
1 to be a division chief in the Division of the
2 Budget, a unit chief. I think they're called
3 assistant or deputy budget directors. They can
4 be paid on Wednesday, but your secretary won't?
5 Not only are people being
6 punished here but it's really hard to understand
7 why they are being punished. Oh, legislators,
8 the Governor, Lt. Governor, elected officials,
9 no problem. Don't pay us. Don't pay us until
10 there's a budget. That's our responsibility.
11 But what are we saying here? That your
12 receptionist tells you how to vote on a budget,
13 when to do it and what do you put in it? That
14 they're responsible somehow, more responsible
15 than the receptionist in the Governor's office,
16 more responsible than the unit heads in the
17 Division of the Budget who makes 104,000 a
18 year.
19 I have people in my district
20 office, and we all do, who make -- I'm sure we
21 all have people make less than $20,000 a year.
22 Their job, constituent services, they worry
23 about helping people wade through the bureau
3841
1 cracy; they go to community meetings. They
2 don't live in Albany, and they don't get paid
3 Wednesday and they say to the landlord, "I
4 didn't get paid." You know, important as these
5 issues are, they're not going to be blasted all
6 over the front page downstate. Upstate, in the
7 Albany area, everybody will know, and I
8 certainly hope landlords, lenders, people who
9 have mortgages, car loans in this capital region
10 will understand when someone says, "I work for
11 the Legislature." They'll understand, I hope
12 that, "Oh, I know you're not getting paid for a
13 couple weeks, but you will get paid."
14 That's not true for everybody
15 where somebody who works for the Legislature
16 lives. Go explain to somebody who is a landlord
17 in Brooklyn or Queens that, "Oh, I work for the
18 Legislature, I didn't get paid." Their first
19 reaction will be, "You don't have a job?" They
20 won't understand what this little game going on
21 of scapegoating clerks and secretaries for
22 something the Governor and the legislators
23 failed to do in a timely fashion.
3842
1 This legislation makes absolutely
2 no sense. Why would you pay someone who works
3 in the Division of the Budget and earns 104,000
4 a year and not pay an intern that earns $110 a
5 week?
6 There's no rationale for this.
7 It's purely punitive. If there were a
8 rationale, a consistency, it would make sense.
9 If it denied pay to legislators only and elected
10 officials, I'd vote for it in a minute, but
11 that just makes no sense to pick on people
12 who have absolutely nothing to do with the
13 budget.
14 And now I'm told in this new
15 amended version, and the reason that I won't
16 vote for this, because as unjust as it was to
17 legislative employees, low level legislative
18 employees, I was prepared to vote for this to
19 see that our work force was paid and that those
20 who are represented in collective bargaining are
21 paid, and now I'm told, Oh, commissioners will
22 be paid under this, but commissioners will be
23 paid 104-, $105,000 a year, they'll get paid,
3843
1 but now I'm told that over a thousand employees
2 who are represented in collective bargaining by
3 PEF are not covered, for a variety of technical
4 reasons, by the Fair Labor Standard Act and they
5 won't be paid under this.
6 This isn't legislation. This is
7 a piece a garbled up mess. This is a lashing
8 out at I don't know what. It's certainly not
9 thought out. For a governor who's threatened
10 the public employees and the legislative
11 employees of this state for the last two or
12 three months with the loss of their paychecks,
13 who's had all that time to threaten, and his
14 budget director has all that time to threaten
15 and plan and plot and worry the workers, to now
16 come out with legislation that doesn't make any
17 sense is the best that can be said about it and
18 I appreciate what Senator Bruno wants to do.
19 The best that can be said about it is maybe
20 tomorrow we'll correct this because it doesn't
21 seem well thought out; maybe there's a problem.
22 That's not good enough from that
23 second floor. They've had weeks to threaten,
3844
1 make campaign speeches, point fingers, and now
2 they can't even come up with a piece of
3 legislation that aims at the correct people that
4 they ought to be aiming at if you're willing to
5 subscribe to their punitive notions anyway.
6 This legislation is unworthy of a
7 vote in this chamber.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
9 recognizes Senator Gold.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 The one thing that this piece of
13 legislation does say is that the Governor lost,
14 because the Governor said, "If you don't have a
15 budget on time, I'm closing down the state." And
16 what happened? The state is not closing down,
17 not under either of these bills, the first and
18 the second because somebody said, "Oh, Governor,
19 I know you said it. It was a good tag line,
20 good tag line but, Governor, you can't do it,"
21 and they explained why.
22 Then they came up with the first
23 bill, and there was -- they weren't closing down
3845
1 the state exactly, but we're going to come close
2 and somebody said, "Governor, you can't do that"
3 and, Senator Bruno, you're left with something
4 that you say you're unsure of but, as Senator
5 Connor said, you could have been very sure.
6 Everybody gets paid in the state
7 except the Governor, Lt. Governor and the
8 Legislature. That's pretty clear. Of course,
9 that's a tag line also, and that's ridiculous,
10 because everybody knows that we are going to get
11 paid. The Constitution says it, so it's a good
12 tag line, but it really doesn't mean too much,
13 and the biggest disappointment to me is that the
14 Governor, who I respect, really is acting like a
15 kindergartener because that's what this is.
16 The Governor says that we should
17 put our pockets in front of our constituent
18 pockets, and I for one won't do it. But that's
19 what this says. It says, whether I like the
20 budget or I don't like a budget, I've got to
21 vote for something by March 31st or I won't get
22 paid even, if my constituents get decimated, and
23 I say, "Governor, I ain't goin' to do it."
3846
1 That's not what I got elected to do.
2 Of course, Senator Bruno, I also
3 don't understand the philosophy because I'm a
4 part of this house and this house passed a
5 budget. Well, why are we not paying the people
6 who work in this house? We passed a budget. Of
7 course, the fact that the budget was not passed
8 on time is the fault of George Pataki, and I'll
9 tell you why. I'm glad you asked. When the
10 other budgets didn't come in on time and we had
11 a Democratic governor and a Democratic Assembly
12 and the Republican Senate, it was never the
13 fault of the Republican Senate that the budget
14 didn't come on time, never, never. It was
15 always the fault of the governor and the
16 Assembly because the governor was a Democrat and
17 the Assembly was Democratic.
18 So why is this year all of a
19 sudden that it's not the fault, I mean take the
20 logic. The Governor and the Senate. Not
21 Shelly's fault, not Assembly's fault. It
22 happens to now be the same position you fellows
23 were, you fellows and girls -- pardon me, ladies
3847
1 -- for a number of years, so it's obvious
2 taking the Republican philosophy of this house
3 for years and years, it is your fault and George
4 Pataki's fault that the Governor -- that the
5 budget didn't get passed.
6 Of course, this is -- I don't
7 know, by the way, whether the cooks in the
8 mansion get paid because, if they don't get paid
9 I guess the Governor could really put pressure
10 on us and fast until the budget got passed. But
11 I don't know whether we're going to see that.
12 The bottom line is that this is
13 really just silliness. I'm sure it will have
14 some appeal to some unemployable guys at the New
15 York Daily News to write for their editorial
16 page, and who like slogans as much as other
17 people, but in the real world this is childish,
18 absolutely childish.
19 You don't want to make payments
20 and you're talking about delaying payments. The
21 money is going to come. Is this a symbol? It is
22 not a symbol and worst of all, worst of all,
23 once you get past the childishness of it, you
3848
1 come in with a defective bill. I've -- we've
2 had our conference. I've been talking to people
3 in the hall. There isn't a doubt in the world
4 that, if there was a piece of paper which says
5 until the budget is passed, members of the
6 Legislature, the Governor, the Lt. Governor will
7 not get paid, I don't even think you'd have a
8 debate. I don't think you'd have a debate, but
9 I can't believe, Senator Bruno, having known you
10 for a long, long time, that in some way the
11 Sergeant-at-Arms is at fault for George Pataki
12 not bringing in a budget or your receptionist
13 who is a lovely lady apparently sabotaged the
14 state, and you're not paying that woman until we
15 get a budget.
16 Well, this side of the aisle, I
17 hope, would have done better during the budget
18 process, and I'm glad that Senator Connor said
19 what he said about how his vote would go because
20 I'm going to vote with my leader. I think it's
21 childish. There will be some people out there
22 who say, Oh, my God, you know, at least vote to
23 pay those people who can get paid. Let's at
3849
1 least get somebody. I say nonsense. If you
2 people can't even draw a bill to be able to tell
3 people who's covered and not covered and you
4 have to say the Comptroller has counsel, he's
5 got 20 counsels, let them figure it out, you
6 wouldn't dare put in a piece of legislation like
7 that.
8 Is that the way you give rule
9 making authority to the agencies? Come to think
10 of it, you don't like the agency rule-making,
11 that's what you must have been doing for 20
12 years. The bill is an embarrassment. It's not
13 only a political embarrassment showing that the
14 Governor couldn't deliver on the budget and
15 couldn't even deliver on his threats to stop the
16 state, it's a drafting political embarrassment
17 and not only shouldn't people vote for it, they
18 should be ashamed that we're even dealing with
19 it.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
21 recognizes Senator Solomon.
22 Senator Paterson, why do you
23 rise?
3850
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
2 if Senator Solomon would yield for just one
3 moment.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Paterson.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
7 I wasn't going to get up, but I -- something
8 just came to me, and I was wondering if Senator
9 Bruno could yield for this one last question.
10 He's on the phone. Oh, Senator Gold will -
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Bruno, would you yield to Senator Paterson for
13 one last question?
14 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
15 President. Trying to find out whether dinner
16 was ready or not, Mr. President. I'm only
17 kidding.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Bruno,
19 are you aware that the Civil Service Employees
20 Association has now asked the Assembly not to
21 act on this bill this evening?
22 SENATOR BRUNO: No, Mr.
23 President, I'm not aware of that. Senator
3851
1 Paterson aware of that?
2 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm aware that
3 they have asked the Assembly that.
4 SENATOR BRUNO: What did the
5 Assembly say, Senator? Maybe you could share
6 that with us. Because I just tried to reach the
7 Speaker; he is not in his office; he's not in
8 the chamber; he's in his car. I wasn't able to
9 reach him. Maybe you can tell us that.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: I don't know,
11 I thought maybe I should raise it, because I
12 don't see this situation arising out of a
13 problem that involves any sort of antithetical
14 feeling between the Majority and Minority in
15 this house. I think that Senator Bruno, by even
16 assisting in putting forth this amendment, is
17 trying to ameliorate this particular situation
18 and so I just wanted to raise at this time that
19 it is not clear that one of the houses will even
20 act on this bill this evening, and so without
21 that -- with that information, I thought we
22 might want to consider whether or not it would
23 be good to take a vote right now, and I think
3852
1 Senator Gold's points are well taken that this
2 bill as it stands now is, confusing as it is, is
3 really not a good idea. That's putting the best
4 face on it and embarrassment would be putting
5 more than an accurate face on it, but I don't
6 think it arose from any dissension within this
7 house, and I think as a body, we should consider
8 waiting until tomorrow if we find out that the
9 Assembly is not going to, because people work -
10 people are entitled to be paid, and it's my
11 opinion, Mr. President, that people should be
12 paid, all but the legislators, all but those who
13 have a decision-making capacity, but what I am
14 just rising at this time, Mr. President, is to
15 advise the Majority Leader that there has been a
16 request by the Civil Service Employees
17 Association to hold this bill until it is
18 scrupulously checked and without fault.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
20 recognizes Senator Bruno.
21 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
22 apologize for the delay. I just talked to the
23 Speaker, and the Speaker -- we are going to lay
3853
1 this bill aside and adjourn at the appropriate
2 moment until tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m., and
3 I say that because there is a question about the
4 wording that's here and apparently the counsels
5 have been talking to the Comptroller's office
6 and the Comptroller indicates that it could be
7 days before they could make a determination and
8 if that's the case, public employees would not
9 be paid, and we would like to avoid that
10 circumstance, so that being the case, I would
11 lay the bill aside, Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
13 is laid aside.
14 SENATOR BRUNO: And there being
15 no further business -- oh, we have one more
16 piece of business, Mr. President, and that is
17 Calendar Number -- we will lay that bill aside
18 as well, 361, Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar
20 Number 361 is laid aside also.
21 Senator Bruno.
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
23 there being no further business to come before
3854
1 the Senate, I move we stand adjourned until
2 10:00 a.m., tomorrow morning.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
4 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until
5 tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m.
6 (Whereupon at 8:59 p.m., the
7 Senate adjourned.)
8
9
10
11
12
13
14