Regular Session - April 4, 1995
3855
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 April 4, 1995
10 10:05 a.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 SENATOR JOHN A. DeFRANCISCO, Acting President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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3856
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3 The Senate will come to order. Would everyone
4 please rise and repeat with me the Pledge of
5 Allegiance.
6 (The assemblage repeated the
7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. )
8 In the absence of clergy, may we
9 bow our heads in a moment of silence.
10 (A moment of silence was
11 observed. )
12 Reading of the Journal.
13 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
14 Monday, April 3rd. The Senate met pursuant to
15 adjournment, Senator Kuhl in the Chair upon
16 designation of the Temporary President. Prayer
17 by the Reverend Father Peter Young, Blessed
18 Sacrament Church, Bolton Landing. The Journal
19 of Sunday, April 2nd, was read and approved. On
20 motion, Senate adjourned.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
22 Without objection, the Journal stands approved
23 as read.
3857
1 Presentation of petitions.
2 Messages from the Assembly.
3 Messages from the Governor.
4 Reports of standing committees.
5 Reports of select committees.
6 Communications and reports from
7 state officers.
8 Motions and resolutions.
9 Senator Bruno.
10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, on
11 page 26, I'm going to offer the following
12 amendments to Calendar Number 360, Print Number
13 3957-A, and ask that that bill retain its place
14 on the Third Reading Calendar.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
16 Amendments received.
17 SENATOR BRUNO: And, Mr.
18 President, I'd like to, at this time, call up
19 Calendar Number 360. I believe the bills have
20 to be distributed, and I recognize, Mr.
21 President -- would you recognize Senator Spano.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 Senator Spano.
3858
1 SENATOR SPANO: Mr. President,
2 just an announcement for the members of the
3 Senate Labor Committee that the meeting
4 previously scheduled for 11:00 o'clock in Room
5 509 in the LOB, will be called at 10:45 in Room
6 123 of the Capitol. It's 10:45 is the Senate
7 Labor Committee to consider confirmation of two
8 appointments from the Governor.
9 Thank you.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
11 The Secretary will read Senate Print 3957-B.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 360, Budget Bill, Senate Print 3957-B, an act
14 making an appropriation for the support of
15 government.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
17 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, is
18 there a message of necessity at the desk?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
20 Yes, there is.
21 SENATOR BRUNO: I move we accept
22 the message, Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3859
1 All in favor of accepting the message signify by
2 saying aye.
3 (Response of "Aye.")
4 Opposed nay.
5 (There was no response. )
6 The message is accepted.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
9 Senator Gold.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I'm told
11 that the bills are being distributed but, in all
12 fairness, there's nobody distributing the bill.
13 I just want to see the bill if that's not -
14 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
15 can we stand at ease in a few minutes while we
16 distribute the bill.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 The Senate will stand at ease. The bill is now
19 being distributed.
20 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
21 hopefully, Calendar Number 360 has been
22 distributed, and people in the chamber have had
23 a chance to review that bill, and I think at
3860
1 this time we should take it up.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3 Senator Bruno, Senator Paterson, before we went
4 in recess, requested an explanation.
5 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
6 President.
7 We had this bill before us last
8 night, and some question was raised on the floor
9 that appeared to be very appropriate. We've had
10 some conversations just by way of bringing
11 everyone up to speed with the Comptroller's
12 office, with the Speaker, and there was enough
13 confusion in the language in this bill that the
14 Comptroller's office had indicated it would take
15 them several days if not weeks to make a
16 judgment on which people should be paid and
17 which weren't authorized to be paid.
18 So hearing that, the Speaker and
19 I had agreed that it would serve no purpose to
20 create that unnecessary delay in paychecks, so
21 we laid the bill aside.
22 Through the night, thanks to some
23 good work on the part of staff people and some
3861
1 of the others that were assisting us here, we
2 have cleaned up the language in the form of the
3 amendment that's there at the desk, with an "A"
4 and "B" version, and that language does this:
5 It very -- well, first of all,
6 part of the confusion was the bill talked about
7 the executive branch and the executive branch
8 includes some 2,000, 2100 people, executive
9 branch. Oh, thank you, I'm used to dealing with
10 small numbers here, it's the whole 200,000 that
11 are in the executive branch, that work for the
12 state agencies; so, of course, that would create
13 a lot of confusion because it was contradictory
14 in language. So that word "branch" that created
15 most of the problems has been changed to
16 "Executive Chamber," which has about 200 people
17 in it. So from branch 200,000 to chamber 200.
18 The additional confusion was that
19 the Governor, apparently it wasn't his intent,
20 could pick and choose who'd be paid and who
21 wouldn't be in the Executive Chamber. That was
22 never his intent. He last evening agreed to be
23 very specific. The only people in the Executive
3862
1 Chamber that will be paid are those that must be
2 paid according to the Fair Labor Standards Act,
3 federal legislation beyond his control. He has
4 provided a list with this to the Comptroller,
5 and I just talked to the Comptroller and that
6 list is very specific by name as the people who
7 do not qualify to be paid under the Fair Labor
8 Standards Act, and they will not be paid, by
9 name.
10 So it's very easy for the
11 Comptroller to look at the list and compare it
12 to those that would be exempt and paid. The
13 Comptroller's office is apparently satisfied
14 that this cleans it up. The 1,000, 2,000, 3,000
15 people that were mentioned last night in the
16 chamber and out of the chamber along with some
17 of the labor unions like PEF, and there was some
18 confusion about some of the CSEA people, all of
19 those people are now covered and will be paid by
20 the change in the language, and we confirmed
21 that this morning before we came in by talking
22 to the leadership at CSEA, at PEF, and they now
23 support this legislation and they are asking us
3863
1 here in the chamber to do this before 12:00 so
2 that the payroll can go forward.
3 So, Mr. President, having worked
4 through the night, I would appreciate the
5 support of my colleagues, and I thank my
6 colleagues on this side of the aisle as well as
7 this side of the aisle for their patience, for
8 their indulgence, for their support and for the
9 very constructive criticism that you made of
10 this procedure and this legislation last night,
11 and I hope that you will concur that we have
12 corrected the questionable language and that
13 this bill now should go forward so that we can
14 go on with the rest of the business of the day
15 which will probably take us through 8:00 or 9:00
16 o'clock tonight.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: I
18 have, Senator Paterson.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
20 I'm seeking a point of clarification. I wonder
21 if the Majority Leader would be so kind as to
22 yield for a few questions.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3864
1 Senator Bruno, would you yield to questions from
2 Senator Solomon -- Senator Paterson.
3 SENATOR BRUNO: Excuse me. Mr.
4 President, just give me about 30 seconds if you
5 will and I'll answer.
6 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, my
7 apologies. Senator?
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Through you,
9 Mr. President, Senator Bruno, therefore, under
10 this bill all employees of state agencies get
11 paid, is that correct?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
13 Senator Bruno.
14 SENATOR BRUNO: That is correct,
15 Mr. President. That's my understanding.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: And Mr.
17 President, if Senator Bruno will yield for
18 another question. Senator Bruno, that means all
19 commissioners will get paid.
20 SENATOR BRUNO: That is correct,
21 Mr. President.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Now, as we
23 move to the Executive Chamber, as I read this
3865
1 bill, the Governor's secretary then will
2 designate who is and is not complying with the
3 federal Fair Labor Standards Act, and then we
4 will know who gets paid in the Executive
5 Chamber; is that correct?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
7 Senator Bruno.
8 SENATOR BRUNO: Yeah, Mr.
9 President. Yes. That is quite an accurate
10 reflection but, for clarification, he doesn't
11 make judgments. He simply executes the letter
12 of the intent of the law by doing the
13 comparisons of who is disqualified under the
14 Fair Labor Standards Act so he is doing the
15 paperwork. He is not making any judgments on
16 which people get paid. That is done by the
17 letter of this appropriation.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
19 Senator Paterson.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
21 we thank Senator Bruno for that answer, but that
22 brings us right back to the question that I
23 asked last night which is who makes the
3866
1 decision? In other words, it's not who signs the
2 letter. In other words, at some point in the
3 legislation Senator Bruno just informed us that
4 there's a list. So what I want to know is, I've
5 never seen the list. The Comptroller, I
6 understand, has seen the list, but the
7 Comptroller is not voting here today. All of
8 us, as Senators in this chamber, are voting and
9 we would like to know who is on -
10 SENATOR BRUNO: There's the
11 list.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: This is the
13 list. All right. Senator Bruno, now that I
14 have the list, it appears that the Governor's
15 secretaries and support staff get paid under the
16 list; is that not correct?
17 SENATOR BRUNO: That would depend
18 on whether or not they come under the Fair Labor
19 Standards Act, federal legislation. If they do,
20 yes, they will get paid. If they don't, no,
21 they will not get paid.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
23 apparently they do conform with the regulations
3867
1 of the federal Fair Labor Standards Act and so
2 apparently they are going to get paid.
3 SENATOR BRUNO: Well, Senator, I
4 think you're making an accurate reflection of
5 the situation.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
7 through you. Senator Bruno, do you think a
8 paralegal would be subject to the federal Fair
9 Labor Standards Act?
10 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
11 that would depend on whether or not they are
12 presently within the framework of that law.
13 That is not a judgment that we can make on the
14 floor here, and that is not a judgment that's
15 affected by the legislation before us or by any
16 judgments that will be made on the second
17 floor.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
19 Senator Paterson.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr.
21 President, I'm not making a judgment; I'm
22 reading the list. I'm reading the list that was
23 just provided to me, and my information is that
3868
1 paralegals will be paid under this federal Fair
2 Labor Standards Act.
3 My next question is -- my next
4 question has not come to me yet.
5 SENATOR BRUNO: It will, I'm sure
6 it will, Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
8 Has it come to you, Senator Paterson?
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr.
10 President. As I said before, I really don't
11 mind being the puppet. It's when they let the
12 strings show.
13 Mr. President, will the
14 Governor's legislative assistants be paid or
15 would Senator Bruno know that answer?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
17 Senator Bruno.
18 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, I'm looking
19 at the list just as you are, Senator, and I can
20 only make the same judgments that you could make
21 and it's my understanding that the people on the
22 list do not come under the Fair Labor Standards
23 Act, so they will not be paid. Those that are
3869
1 not in the list come under the act and they will
2 be paid, and again, that is beyond the judgment
3 of this legislation or the secretary to the
4 Governor.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
6 that is my whole point. I think that this
7 chamber should be making a judgment right now,
8 particularly in such a highly charged atmosphere
9 where a governor at the State of the State
10 message said on January the 5th, if I'm correct,
11 and his point was that if we don't pass the
12 budget on time, "you won't get paid and neither
13 will I." He's fond of quoting himself and
14 reciting that mantra that "you won't get paid
15 and neither will I."
16 From then, if we just reflect
17 historically he went forward to say that he
18 wasn't going to pay anybody in state
19 government. Finding that that wasn't a
20 particularly good idea, he backed away from that
21 and then the next we heard, we didn't know what
22 -- who was going to get paid for a while, and
23 then we heard that it was the Governor, the
3870
1 legislators and staff that were not going to get
2 paid. Then we went through two bills last night
3 and we've now arrived on a -- at a third bill
4 today, and what the third bill is basically
5 stating is that some of the Governor's staff
6 will get paid, but some -- but none of the
7 legislative staff.
8 My problem with this whole thing,
9 and it goes really to federal law and really to
10 our founding Constitution through our state
11 Constitution, is that we -- our forefathers
12 thought about these types of issues years ago
13 and they were very clear on a separation of
14 powers between the legislative and the executive
15 branch. They did not want for either branch to
16 be put in an unfair bargaining position through
17 pressure exerted by anyone from the other
18 branch.
19 What the Governor has done is, he
20 has realized that many of his support staff who
21 are often ballyhooed and parodied in the press,
22 are actually some hard working people. They
23 stay up late. They help prepare these pieces of
3871
1 legislation such as the one we're looking at
2 right now. They are loyal, they are interested,
3 they are hard working, and yet some are
4 apparently more valuable than others because
5 none of the corresponding members of the
6 legislative staff are going to be paid, but yet
7 the executive staff is going to be paid.
8 I think this is an absolute
9 outrage, and the reason it's an outrage is
10 because if we're going to make a decision that
11 the budget not passing on time engenders in us
12 some responsibility, then we have to be
13 scrupulously fair as to who shares in that
14 responsibility, not a situation where the
15 Legislature can't make a judgment after reading
16 a bill or the secretary to the Governor will
17 make the decision or the Comptroller will
18 interpret some decision.
19 It's all extremely confusing. I
20 don't understand it. I don't think anybody here
21 understands it, and so my question is, why are
22 we voting for it? Wouldn't the simpler way to
23 do it -- wouldn't the simpler way to do it just
3872
1 be everybody gets paid except those who are in
2 the decision-making process, the Legislature,
3 Assembly members, Senators, the Lt. Governor and
4 the Governor?
5 Now, I do not understand how
6 interns who work for the Legislature who make
7 $104 a week are not getting paid when budget
8 directors and commissioners and budget analysts
9 who make 104,000 a year, at least, are getting
10 paid. The interns aren't making the decisions
11 that will end the negotiations to pass this
12 budget. The secretaries aren't making those
13 decisions. Some are going to get paid, some are
14 not going to get paid? What's the
15 discrimination? Who do you work for? Who do
16 you work for?
17 And in my opinion, it is
18 disingenuous to have any piece of legislation on
19 the floor right now that pays workers of equal
20 value in a disproportional way by paying some
21 and not paying others.
22 It's not only unfair; it really
23 leaves a lugubrious cloud over the budget
3873
1 negotiations themselves. Last night we had a
2 circumstance where union members were possibly
3 eligible not to be paid, so today we've adjusted
4 the language and we're back to non-union staff
5 members, some will get paid and some will not
6 get paid.
7 The point that's overriding this
8 entire issue that really is more important as to
9 who gets paid on April 5th and who does not,
10 involves really the fairness of the budget
11 negotiating process itself. When the budget was
12 not passed on April 1st, we are now being asked
13 to look at this process as if failure to agree
14 somehow ranks as failure to pass the budget and
15 the inability to agree is something that is
16 mutual. None of us agree, and as much as we may
17 continue to rail against each other in the media
18 and say it's the Speaker's fault or some people
19 feel it's the Governor's fault, it's really all
20 of our fault, and so if the Governor wants to
21 make good on his promise from the State of the
22 State mission -- message, then let him do that.
23 Then let the Governor not get paid; we, the
3874
1 Legislature, will not get paid, but why are we
2 taking it out on employees who don't participate
3 in the budget process?
4 And then to go beyond that as
5 we're doing in this piece of legislation and
6 making it so confusing that on three occasions
7 this Legislature cannot really figure out who is
8 the broad supervisory power that will make the
9 decision as to who is going to get paid and who
10 is not going to get paid is, in my opinion,
11 practicing what I call the politics of
12 confusion. It's seeking a goal and achieving it
13 by creating such an issue that it obfuscates any
14 understanding on an issue, and I'm opposed to
15 passing any legislation that is void for
16 vagueness as this bill is, and it isn't just
17 vague. It's real.
18 Some people are going to get paid
19 tomorrow, and some people are not and it is
20 totally outrageous to be taking individuals who
21 work with equal work and equal value and pay
22 them differently depending on what chamber they
23 work in. This is absolutely outrageous, and
3875
1 it's a disingenuous act because, if you're going
2 to say it, then why don't you just say it in the
3 bill?
4 It says something about the
5 federal Fair Labor Standards Act, and then the
6 secretary of the Governor and then a lot of
7 dicta that isn't in the bill that we're being
8 asked to understand.
9 It's unfair not only to those of
10 us who are voting on it, I think it's unfair to
11 the advocates who try to get up and explain it,
12 people who I have a great deal of respect for,
13 people who give their word around here and their
14 word is always true, and now we are being asked
15 out of some kind of loyalty, to pass a piece of
16 legislation that is inherently disloyal.
17 The inertia inherent in this
18 legislation is incomprehensible and that on
19 itself makes the legislation, in my opinion,
20 void.
21 Other than that, Mr. President, I
22 really don't know what to say. This is the
23 third time that we've had this legislation in
3876
1 the last 12 hours. It still doesn't make any
2 sense. This is the third attempt that the
3 Governor has put out a piece of legislation
4 where he could have just made it very simple;
5 and so I just assume that somewhere in this
6 favored land, a band is playing and somewhere
7 hearts are light, but not here in the Senate
8 chamber because, again, we have in a sense
9 practiced a legislative discrimination by our
10 desire to, for some reason, confuse an issue and
11 issue paychecks to some and not to others, but
12 they all worked hard and they all worked between
13 March 8th and March 22nd which was in the
14 1994-95 budget year, and it is my opinion that
15 the only honorable thing to do, the only moral
16 imperative that we should be adhering to is to
17 pay those who worked and earned their salaries.
18 The fact that the media doesn't
19 have any consideration for them, the fact that
20 they're considered to be hacks and they're
21 considered to be cronies and they're considered
22 to be political appointees may be fine, but if
23 no one else wants to support them, I support
3877
1 them. They work very hard; they earn their
2 salaries. Many of them work session; many of
3 them work seasonally, some of them working while
4 they're going to school. Some of them are
5 interns. Some of them are here to learn about
6 the legislative process. We've really taught
7 them a lesson, a lesson in futility, Mr.
8 President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
10 Senator Solomon.
11 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr.
12 President.
13 Senator Bruno yield, please?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
15 Senator Bruno, would you yield?
16 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
17 President.
18 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, in
19 your opinion, could it have been relatively easy
20 for the Governor to left out -- leave out
21 commissioners, so commissioners wouldn't have
22 been paid?
23 SENATOR BRUNO: Well, Senator,
3878
1 Mr. President, what is happening here through
2 this legislation is just the Governor following
3 through on what he had made very clear from the
4 time that he took office and that was in
5 January, and he stated at the time if we did not
6 do a budget by April 1st legis... he wouldn't
7 get paid and legislators wouldn't get paid and
8 people that are in the process would not get
9 paid.
10 So commissioners are not in the
11 Legislature. They are in the executive branch.
12 So having said that, they are not in the
13 legislative process. The legislator -- the
14 legislators and their employees are in the
15 process as is the executive and the employees in
16 the Executive Chamber, so this legislation is
17 directed specifically at those involved in
18 whatever way in the legislative process. So the
19 commissioners are in the executive branch, not
20 in the process of making laws.
21 So the Governor's following
22 through, as he had indicated he would, and
23 that's why those people are not included.
3879
1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
2 Senator Solomon.
3 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you.
4 Mr. President, the -- if Senator
5 Galiber will yield for a question. Senator,
6 during the Finance hearings -
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
8 Excuse me. This is a little bit out of order.
9 He doesn't have the floor.
10 SENATOR SOLOMON: I have the
11 floor. I have the floor.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
13 Senator Galiber, would you yield to the
14 question?
15 SENATOR GALIBER: Gladly, Mr.
16 President.
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: During the
18 Finance hearings, don't the commissioners come
19 and defend their budgets and make requests for
20 dollars?
21 SENATOR GALIBER: That's
22 correct.
23 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you,
3880
1 Senator.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3 Senator Solomon.
4 SENATOR SOLOMON: I was just
5 curious, I thought the commissioners had
6 something to do with the formulation of the
7 budget which relates to formulation of the
8 amounts of money they're asking for which
9 relates to the amounts that the Governor puts
10 into the budget.
11 On the bill. I find it very
12 interesting that such esteemed commissioners as
13 Bernadette Castro has to receive her salary
14 where a secretary that I have working for me
15 that earns far less than Bernadette Castro, that
16 never opened sofas as a little girl, that
17 doesn't have a trust fund, is not going to
18 receive her salary. I think if the Governor
19 really wanted to hold to his promises, he'd
20 talked about shutting down state government to
21 closing state government. I think that to be
22 fair, at the very least, all commissioners and
23 political appointees should not be getting paid
3881
1 in this situation.
2 Just to say political appointees
3 executive branch, I don't believe that the
4 support staff of legislators, someone who I'm
5 making a loan to so that they can pay their rent
6 this month that works on my staff, should go
7 without their pay while political appointees,
8 many of them besides Commissioner of Parks, I'm
9 sure we have someone such as the person in
10 charge of UDC who can afford not to be paid by
11 the state, are political appointees and directly
12 involved in the political process through their
13 agencies or were in their agency requests.
14 I think what we're doing here
15 today, what the Governor is doing is for
16 something, maybe the Governor has got a little
17 bird at this time, and you know what, if we
18 don't pay these legislative employees, they will
19 bother the legislators to the degree where the
20 legislator is going to fold and agree to a
21 budget.
22 It's a ridiculous scenario and
23 it's a ridiculous concept and what it's telling
3882
1 me here today is "I want to take care of my
2 political employees, but the support staff of
3 legislators, they participate in the process.
4 My commissioners don't participate in the
5 process. My unit heads in Division of Budget
6 don't participate in the process," but the
7 secretary for Senator Solomon, Senator Bruno,
8 Senator Galiber, anyone here has more partici
9 pation in the process than a commissioner? Or
10 more participation in the process than a
11 secretary in the Governor's office?
12 There's no logic in that, and I
13 think what's being done is that we are singling
14 out legislative employees quite unfairly in this
15 bill, and I don't think it would have been that
16 difficult for the Governor's office to draft a
17 piece of legislation which would have directed
18 it at us as legislators, and I think commission
19 ers should have had it directed at them.
20 I certainly don't believe support
21 staff, frankly, in either house and even in the
22 Executive Chamber should be denied their checks,
23 but what I think is very unfair where we're
3883
1 picking out one chamber and you work in the
2 Executive Chamber you're different. You're a
3 commissioner, you're different.
4 Let's have a level playing field
5 as is often cited in this house, and I think
6 that's one of the problems we have with this
7 bill and obviously we saw that there are some
8 problems in the drafting process on the second
9 floor.
10 Thank you.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
12 Senator Nozzolio, why do you rise?
13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
14 will Senator Solomon yield?
15 SENATOR SOLOMON: No.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
17 Senator Solomon will not yield.
18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Is there a
19 list?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
21 Senator Leichter.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
23 my colleagues, this is such bad government.
3884
1 This is so irrational. It is so illogical; this
2 is so unproductive. I tell you what's
3 happening. We have been hoisted on our own
4 petard or maybe, to put it more accurately,
5 we've been hoisted on our own pandering.
6 What is the rationale? I've been
7 trying to go over in my mind, what is the
8 rationale that legislators and their staff or
9 the Governor and his staff should not be paid
10 because we don't have a budget by April 1st?
11 Now, let me say, if there are
12 members here who've been sunning themselves in
13 Bermuda this last month instead of working on
14 the budget, I don't think they should get paid.
15 But as I look around, I don't see anybody with a
16 tan, and I look around and I see people who I
17 know have been here, everybody working, been
18 working extremely hard. I take a look at the
19 staff, maybe -- maybe Abe Lackman and John Quirk
20 were off playing golf in California. If that
21 was the case, there was somebody that looks just
22 like them that's been here 18 hours a day
23 working trying to pass a budget.
3885
1 Why shouldn't that person get
2 paid? What is the theory that you -- if you
3 don't pass the budget by April 1st you don't get
4 paid? Is it because Governor Pataki has not
5 agreed with Assembly Speaker Silver? Therefore,
6 he shouldn't get paid? Or is it because the
7 Assembly Speaker hasn't agreed with the Majority
8 Leader? Or is it because the Majority Leader
9 doesn't see the budget the way I see it, that,
10 therefore, he shouldn't get paid?
11 We have some very serious
12 differences, philosophical, ideological,
13 political, regional, that relate to the budget.
14 We're fighting these out. You people believe we
15 have need to cut taxes. We think this is not
16 the time to cut taxes or at least that's my
17 view. You want to direct the tax cuts toward
18 the wealthy. I think that's a mistake. I don't
19 think that we should take the safety net away
20 from needy people. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe
21 you're right, maybe somewhere in between there's
22 a -- there's a rational answer, but these are
23 honest differences. Because you don't agree
3886
1 with me, you don't get paid; I don't get paid
2 because I don't agree with you, and that makes
3 absolutely no sense, and it's particularly harsh
4 when it falls on the legislative staff, and I
5 know that argument has been made very
6 effectively, and I know that you all agree
7 because I've talked to you in the cloak room and
8 I think you feel as badly as I do about the fact
9 that hard working staff members who have no
10 responsibility whatsoever for the budget are not
11 going to get paid. It really is a hardship on
12 them. It's unfair and it does nothing to move
13 the process along.
14 The real difficulty we have as we
15 know is that we have a very short window within
16 which to pass the budget. Unfortunately, our
17 Constitution provides for budgets by April 1st;
18 the Governor doesn't come up with his budget
19 proposal until February 1st, and there's a
20 30-day period. It's really a very, very short
21 time, as we know.
22 But I think we've been working
23 extremely hard this year and the idea that -
3887
1 well, it isn't enough with your heart you've got
2 to agree. Well, wait a second. Agree with
3 what? Do the people in Senator Nozzolio's
4 district say that he shouldn't get paid unless
5 he agrees with what the people in my district
6 want; or is it the other way about? I mean as
7 you examine it, you realize what nonsense this
8 is.
9 Now, this made a great applause
10 line in the Governor's State of the State.
11 Maybe it was good campaign fodder but, when you
12 come down to the practical aspects of this, you
13 realize how senseless it is and it's for that
14 reason that last night in some confusion the
15 Majority Leader had to pull back a bill and even
16 now the bill that we have, the Governor has the
17 absolute discretion to pick who he wants and who
18 he doesn't want. He submitted a list today. He
19 can change that list tomorrow. There's a
20 complete, absolute authority in the secretary to
21 the Governor to submit whatever list he wants
22 to, so even within that aspect or from that
23 perspective, there's no balance. There's no
3888
1 logic.
2 Now, if you want to say those who
3 are responsible -- well, who's responsible?
4 Leichter, what do you have to do with the
5 budget? Very little. Maybe -- maybe the bill
6 just ought to provide the Majority members of
7 the two houses don't get paid. Well, that isn't
8 fair because, with all due respect to my hard
9 working and bright colleagues, I don't know how
10 much all of you have to do with the budget.
11 Well, maybe -- maybe it just ought to be the
12 Majority Leader. Well, maybe the chairman of
13 the Finance Committee.
14 But what are we -- but what are
15 we trying to do? Is it -- is it to put a gun to
16 their head? You know, in other aspects if you
17 say to somebody "I will pay you if you do
18 certain things as a legislator," you know what
19 happened? You end up indicted. You end up in
20 jail.
21 Well, in a sense, this is what -
22 what is happening here, and let me tell you,
23 this only slows up the budget process, and I'll
3889
1 tell you why. Once you pass something like that
2 and as legislators, we can't get paid, are you
3 going to rush to pass a budget? I'll tell you,
4 if you do you're going to go back to your
5 district and you know what people are going to
6 say. Ah, you voted for that lousy budget so you
7 could get paid. And without doubt, people are
8 going to be saying that, people who don't agree
9 with the budget, and we know when this budget is
10 passed, there isn't going to be anybody in this
11 state that's going to like it. So they'll say,
12 Ah, you voted for it to get paid. So, my
13 friends, we really are going down a very
14 perilous and a very foolish path.
15 Now, I know that this pandering
16 didn't start with this governor. There was a
17 previous governor who was good at those things,
18 who first made that suggestion that we shouldn't
19 get paid, but you know one thing about Governor
20 Cuomo, he was very smart. He knew it didn't
21 work, so he would throw out the idea. He
22 threatened in February, but he wouldn't do
23 anything in April.
3890
1 This governor, unfortunately, has
2 shown that he takes his campaign rhetoric as
3 dogma and he's now trying to do something which
4 is really going to blow up in his face, which
5 doesn't make sense, and which I think under
6 mines democratic government.
7 Now, is this a principle now
8 we're going to establish in all legislation? If
9 you don't do it by a certain time, if you don't
10 do it in a certain way, you're not going to get
11 paid. That's terrible. In fact, if you take a
12 look at the Constitution, it tries to protect
13 public officials from that sort of pressure.
14 You can't decrease their salary during their
15 term of office, because precisely you don't want
16 to put that sort of pressure on them.
17 I think part of this is, I'm
18 sorry to say, is this anti-government,
19 anti-politician. Every politician is lousy.
20 Government is lousy. These people aren't doing
21 their job. Nonsense! We're working very hard
22 trying to pass a very difficult budget at a very
23 financially tough time in this state and there
3891
1 are real differences, and it takes time to work
2 out those differences and to rush to do it is
3 certainly of no benefit to the people of this
4 state.
5 It's true there may be a certain
6 cost to the people of this state in interest and
7 I think we're all aware of it, and we want to
8 pass the budget, and I know nobody wants to pass
9 a budget more than Senator Bruno. But, Senator,
10 if the issue is just this is such a -- an
11 offense against the public that you're not going
12 to get paid, then take Assemblyman -- Assembly
13 Speaker Silver's ideas, pass that budget, or are
14 you going to -
15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
16 Excuse me, Senator. Excuse me one moment.
17 Senator Stafford, why do you rise?
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
19 I stated on the floor here the other day that I
20 never interrupted a person on this floor. This
21 is the first time, but I'm sure my colleague
22 from the City will understand. We've announced
23 a Finance Committee meeting as scheduled in 332,
3892
1 at 11:00 a.m. Thank you.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: A
3 meeting of the Senate Finance Committee in Room
4 332 at 11:00 a.m.
5 Senator Leichter.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
8 May I interrupt you one more time. Senator
9 Levy, why do you rise?
10 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, Mr.
11 President. There will be an immediate meeting
12 of the Transportation Committee because one of
13 the nominees that we have has to clear
14 Transportation to go to Finance so that that
15 nominee can be taken up today.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
17 And where will that be?
18 SENATOR LEVY: In Room 123.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: In
20 Room 123, there will be an immediate meeting of
21 the Transportation Committee.
22 Senator Leichter.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
3893
1 President.
2 I just end up and implore the
3 Governor, all members of this Legislature,
4 include myself, include the Minority in this
5 house, the Minority in the other house, let's
6 stop pandering. Let's stop giving the voters a
7 sort of red meat issue. Let's not pay the
8 legislators. It's nonsense. It doesn't move
9 forward the process. It disgraces the
10 democratic ideal that we're committed to. It's
11 wrong, as we've seen. It doesn't work. We
12 shouldn't be doing this.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
14 Senator Gold.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
16 President.
17 First, I'd like to make an
18 observation, Senator Bruno. I think that this
19 is important, and I know the committee meetings
20 are important, but I mean it might be a
21 situation where you are assuming a fast roll
22 call and not a quorum call. I think that the
23 committee meetings should be put off for a
3894
1 period of time and people ought to be involved.
2 That's only my opinion.
3 Senator Paterson and Senator
4 Leichter, I think really have done very well but
5 there's a couple of little points I would like
6 to refer to.
7 First of all, Senator Bruno, I
8 think the record ought to be straightened out as
9 far as you're concerned, and no one on your side
10 wants to do it, so I'll do it. I think this
11 Governor has been very, very lucky to have a
12 Majority Leader as loyal as you and for a
13 Majority Con Conference to be
as loyal as you've
14 been. As the New York News pointed out one day,
15 your members have had to cast some very, very
16 difficult votes against things they might want,
17 et cetera, and you've been towing the line.
18 And, Senator Bruno, I don't sit in on these
19 private meetings, but I know you for a long time
20 and I can not believe that you in your heart -
21 and I don't expect you to answer this because
22 you're loyal, and I respect that -- but I can't
23 believe that you in your heart would have drawn
3895
1 this bill this way if it was up to you. I can't
2 believe it. I can believe that you would have
3 said the Legislature doesn't get paid. I can't
4 believe, Senator Bruno, in your heart you would
5 have done this the way it was done, so I want
6 you to know from my point of view, I take you
7 personally off the hook, Senator Bruno, and I
8 may be wrong, but I'm entitled to my judgment.
9 I think the concept of not paying
10 the April 5th payment where we put people on a
11 lag payroll, we borrow their money and then
12 don't pay them for work done just can never be
13 justified. Another point I'd like to make, I
14 didn't like the concept of this from the
15 original print, from the "A" print and I
16 certainly am not thrilled with the "B" print,
17 but from the point of view of some people, it
18 was easier to oppose the "A" print yesterday
19 because we were told that the unions were
20 against it.
21 Now, I hear the unions would like
22 to get their money. I just want to say
23 something. CSEA and PEF are groups that should
3896
1 unquestionably be respected. They do great work
2 and the unions do great work for their people
3 but the fact is that they have filed memorandums
4 in opposition to parts of this budget and the
5 parts that they have filed in opposition to are
6 still in the budget, and I'm saying you can't
7 always have it both ways.
8 There are college presidents who
9 say one thing in their role of a college
10 president and then go to a meeting with a
11 legislator the next day or two and say something
12 different because they're with a different
13 group. We've had bankers do that. We've had
14 people all over the state and, ladies and
15 gentlemen, you can't have it both ways. You
16 just can't do that.
17 Now, one point I would like to
18 make which hasn't been raised. As far as the
19 Governor is concerned, the Governor says, "I
20 won't get paid and you won't get paid." That
21 isn't really true. It's not true unless I've
22 missed one thing.
23 There is a receptionist who works
3897
1 for Senator Bruno who has to go out and buy
2 food. Now, is the Governor going to be eating
3 at the Mansion? Are we paying for his food or
4 is he going to put himself on a moratorium and
5 buy his own food until we get a paycheck? There
6 is a secretary and there's a staff person who
7 drives to work, drives to work and pays for
8 parking and they need the money for gas for the
9 car and to pay for the parking. Is George
10 Pataki, our Governor, going to put himself on a
11 moratorium and not use the state car and, if he
12 does, pay for the gas and use his own car during
13 this period of time?
14 If he says that, I could respect
15 it. There's somebody who works for Senator
16 Bruno who rents and, for the month of April, has
17 to pay rent. I would like to know whether
18 Governor Pataki is moving out of the Mansion
19 into a hotel or into an apartment to pay rent
20 during the period of this moratorium, because
21 the truth of the matter is, if he doesn't, then
22 don't tell me he's not getting paid. He's
23 living rent-free with a car and a driver and gas
3898
1 and food, and that's a lot more than the staff
2 people who work for him and the Legislature who
3 are not getting paid.
4 I don't understand why the
5 Attorney General is not getting paid. What does
6 he have to do with the budget? I mean the
7 Attorney General took an office, he says he
8 wants to concentrate more on criminal work,
9 assumedly that's his business, but what does he
10 have to do with this? Carl McCall has nothing
11 to do with the budget process. So the answer
12 is, this is filled with irrationality.
13 I made a comment a few minutes
14 ago that Senator Paterson and Senator Leichter
15 have really done a wonderful job, and they have,
16 and I'll stop here except to say one thing in
17 closing.
18 Every one of you knows that after
19 you criticize the heck out of this bill, the
20 political thing to do is to vote yes because
21 there's 200,000 people waiting to get paid, et
22 cetera, et cetera, and if you're worried about
23 that, I suggest you do it.
3899
1 I will vote no and I'll vote no
2 for one reason, the same reason that I would
3 vote no on the original print and the "A"
4 print. It is childish. It is suggesting that
5 legislators put their own pocketbook before
6 their constituents' pocketbook. It is a form of
7 harassment of the worst kind and it is bad, bad
8 government.
9 Thank you.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
11 Senator Dollinger.
12 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I yield the
14 floor to Senator Waldon.
15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
16 much, Senator Dollinger.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Senator Waldon.
19 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President,
20 my colleagues, I would like to ask a few
21 questions of the learned Senator from Rensselaer
22 if he would allow me to do that, Senator Bruno.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3900
1 Senator Bruno, would you yield to a question?
2 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
3 President.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Bruno,
5 have you had any conversations this date with
6 Comptroller Carl McCall?
7 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, I have,
8 Senator.
9 SENATOR WALDON: Can you tell us
10 in very -- no, don't do that. Mr. President, if
11 I may continue.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
13 Senator Waldon.
14 SENATOR WALDON: Did the
15 Comptroller in any way indicate to you that he
16 may still be empowered to issue checks despite
17 what we're doing here today?
18 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
19 I'm not clear, issue checks to whom?
20 SENATOR WALDON: Issue all checks
21 that are due come tomorrow to all the personnel
22 of the state of New York?
23 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
3901
1 President. The Comptroller indicated to me this
2 morning that he was prepared to issue checks to
3 all state employees.
4 SENATOR WALDON: If I may
5 continue, Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
7 Senator Waldon.
8 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President,
9 is there anything -- I mean Senator Bruno, I
10 apologize for that faux pas. Is there anything
11 in this legislation, this proposal that we're
12 considering, which takes away the money that
13 would be available to pay all state personnel?
14 SENATOR BRUNO: No, Mr.
15 President, to my knowledge, there isn't.
16 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
17 much, Mr. President, Senator Bruno. I'm not
18 finished.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
20 Senator Waldon.
21 SENATOR WALDON: On the bill. My
22 colleagues, to this point here in the debate
23 we've spoken about the mean-spiritedness and the
3902
1 confusion surrounding this issue whether we can
2 pay, whether we can not pay.
3 It is my understanding that the
4 Comptroller has the absolute authority to issue
5 the checks tomorrow to all people. Therefore,
6 the secretaries, et cetera, in each of our
7 offices will be paid. However, there may be a
8 move by my learned colleagues on the other side
9 of the aisle to stop those checks somehow, and
10 let me just say that if someone, perhaps a Steve
11 Sloan, were to do something that is contrary to
12 law, then he may be personally liable and may,
13 in fact, be criminally liable for that action.
14 I think what we're proving here
15 today is that this is an exercise in futility.
16 I'm also told that even our learned Majority
17 Leader, if he involves himself in this process
18 of stopping the checks, may be somehow
19 personally liable or criminally liable, and
20 we're talking about a lot of money, more money
21 than I have in my petty cash, and I would
22 suggest that we not do that.
23 I would now like to tell you two
3903
1 little quick stories, and I will sit.
2 When I was in the sixth grade at
3 P.S. 70 in Brooklyn, there was a great snow in
4 1948. Just before the snow, Billy Lee moved
5 from New Orleans to New York. Billy Lee was an
6 extremely quiet, freckle-faced kid who didn't
7 bother anyone, and we had a guy named Gilbert
8 Zigler who was in the CRMD class. He was two
9 years holder than us; he had been left back
10 twice. He was the bully at P.S. 70 and one day
11 leaving class from P.S. 70, Billy Pickens, my
12 dearest friend Donny Pankin, who died last year,
13 myself John Lagoff, Carl Lagoff, and others were
14 stopped by Zigler and intimidated and told that
15 he was going to whip our you know whats again,
16 and Billy Lee said, "I don't think you ought to
17 do that," and Zigler didn't know Billy Lee, and
18 so Zigler pursued his quest to whip somebody's
19 you know what.
20 With that, Billy Lee picked him
21 up and in the mound of snow that was taller than
22 I was when I was 11 years of age, Billy Lee
23 began to stuff Gilbert Zigler in the snow head
3904
1 first, and each time in his very southern drawl,
2 he said, "You had enough?" "You had enough?" And
3 finally Zigler said, "I had enough," and once we
4 realized that the local bully was nothing but a
5 coward, all of us began to kick Gilbert Sigler's
6 you know what.
7 The point I'm making is that this
8 is a bully tactic. The least of us -- and the
9 Bible says that we should not take advantage of
10 the least of us -- the least of us is being hurt
11 by this act that we're about to do if we do it,
12 and I'm so glad that there is an opportunity to
13 go around, to circumvent this act so that the
14 people will get their checks tomorrow. But I
15 think we, as a legislative body, are on thin ice
16 because, if we allow this bully tactic, what we
17 are really doing is abrogating our power as
18 legislators and we are, in effect, creating a
19 dictatorship. Dictatorships are not only at the
20 national level. Dictatorships can be at the
21 state level and we are giving away our power and
22 our authority to the second floor.
23 I don't want to be a part of a
3905
1 dictatorship. I know that power as Lord Atkins
2 said, Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts
3 absolutely. I don't think that's what we want
4 to do. I thought we -- I think that we wish to
5 exercise our power, our authority, our
6 obligation and our mandate on behalf of the
7 people that we serve.
8 So I say let us do what we have
9 to do. Let us pay the secretaries. Let us pay
10 the elevator operators. Let us pay those 355-B
11 persons who cannot take care of themselves but
12 if we do it, and let us stop this gradual move
13 towards a dictatorship which is the wrong thing
14 to do in this state, and let's stop the bully
15 efforts from the second floor.
16 Thank you, Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Senator Dollinger.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
20 Mr. President.
21 Mr. President, I rise against
22 this -- this whole concept. I think Senator
23 Waldon, Senator Gold, Senator Paterson, Senator
3906
1 Leichter have all expressed many of the views
2 that I share.
3 I have two other issues, one that
4 I want to follow up from Senator Waldon, but the
5 first one is that perhaps if the Majority Leader
6 would just yield to one question if he would.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
8 Senator Bruno, would you yield to a question?
9 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
10 President.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
12 President, through you, is it the intention of
13 this legislation that the federal Fair Labor
14 Standard Act guidelines and rules and regulation
15 would apply to all the employees of the
16 executive branch that the Governor has to
17 indicate one way or the other will be paid? And
18 that's the standard he's using; isn't that
19 correct?
20 SENATOR BRUNO: That's my
21 understanding, Senator.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Mr.
23 President.
3907
1 SENATOR BRUNO: The Executive
2 Chamber, not the executive branch.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct.
4 Well, in the -- well, nobody else in the
5 executive branch is going to lose their pay.
6 SENATOR BRUNO: That's my
7 understanding, Mr. President.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Mr.
9 President, on the bill.
10 I'd call everybody's attention to
11 a little case called the Matter of the State of
12 New York Coalition of Public Employers against
13 the New York State Department of Labor, and what
14 it says is that you cannot -- it's
15 unconstitutional to incorporate federal rules
16 and regulations into a state statute because it
17 violates section 8 of Article IV of the New York
18 State Constitution which provides that no rule
19 or regulation made by any state department or
20 officer shall be effective until it is filed in
21 the office of the Department of State.
22 So here we are creating a whole
23 series of rules and regulations which are going
3908
1 to determine who gets paid in the executive
2 branch, and we're using an incorporation
3 principle that violates our own Constitution.
4 Well, what the heck? Why not violate the
5 Constitution? We seem to have done everything
6 else this week.
7 It also seems to me, Mr.
8 President, that there's one thing that strikes
9 me as extremely different about this debate
10 today versus this debate a year ago. What would
11 have happened a year ago if the second floor had
12 said, "I want to exercise the power to decide
13 who gets paid in my department, but I don't want
14 any legislative leader from either the Senate or
15 the Assembly to decide who gets paid in their
16 house."
17 Well, I dare say, I remember the
18 first year I was here I got into a little
19 argument with Senator Marino who walked in and
20 talked about the tradition of this house, the
21 importance of this house, the importance that
22 this house be respected, the important tradition
23 of the Senate which we have all upheld for more
3909
1 than 200 years, and we were talking at that time
2 about the confirmation and the election of a
3 Comptroller in this state, and I was lectured by
4 Senator Marino about the prerogatives of this
5 house and the importance of recognizing the
6 power of this house.
7 Well, it seems to me, Mr.
8 Majority Leader, with all due respect, we are
9 now giving away -- giving away the power to
10 control who gets paid in this house. The second
11 floor is going to decide who gets paid in the
12 executive branch, the executive office, I should
13 say, and you don't have the power to make that
14 same decision here.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
16 would the Senator yield to a question?
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd be glad
18 to, Mr. President, if it clarifies the
19 position.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
21 Senator Dollinger, would you yield to a
22 question?
23 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you,
3910
1 Senator. I'd appreciate if you'd stay with the
2 facts. I understand political rhetoric; I
3 understand posturing; I understand pandering to
4 the public, I understand all of those things,
5 Senator, but stay with the facts. I stated very
6 clearly and the legislation states very clearly
7 that the Executive Chamber employees that will
8 be paid are paid only because they qualify to be
9 paid under the national -- the federal Fair
10 Labor Standards Act. We, in the Legislature, do
11 not have any employees, none that would qualify
12 in that regard, so your comments are
13 inappropriate, inaccurate, and I'd appreciate
14 your staying with the truth.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again, Mr.
16 President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Senator Dollinger.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: With all due
20 respect to the Majority Leader, what bothers me
21 is that you've allowed the Governor to say,
22 "I've got fair labor standards act employees.
23 I've got to pay them. Therefore, I'm going to
3911
1 pay them," instead of saying, Gee, you know, we
2 have employees who have the same needs as those
3 who are covered by the Fair Labor Standard Act
4 in the executive office. They have the same
5 need for a pay check as the employees on the
6 second floor. They have the same kinds of
7 mortgages as the people who work on the second
8 floor. They have the same kind of need for food
9 as the people on the second floor and yet this
10 body today is going to let the second floor pay
11 for certain of its employees, while we can't pay
12 for ours.
13 Now, I understand rhetoric but it
14 seems to me we give away the power of this
15 house; we give away the power of this Senate and
16 I dare say that a year ago, had this Senate
17 Majority negotiated with Mario Cuomo about this,
18 there wouldn't be a member on that side of the
19 aisle who would have tolerated for a second
20 Mario Cuomo deciding who gets paid on the second
21 floor, while no one on the third floor can get
22 paid.
23 It's inconceivable to me that
3912
1 this Majority would have allowed that, but yet
2 because this Governor is a Republican it's now
3 going to be allowed. I just don't understand
4 how that inconsistency can be so palpable and
5 yet not drive the Majority of this house to cut
6 a different deal with the Governor.
7 Last thing, Mr. President, I have
8 an amendment before the house which I believe
9 has been served up to the desk. I'd ask that it
10 be brought before the house, that we waive its
11 reading and that I be permitted a brief
12 opportunity to explain it.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
14 The amendment is at the desk and the reading of
15 the amendment is waived. You wish to make an
16 explanation?
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I do, Mr.
18 President. I'll be brief.
19 This amendment, Mr. President,
20 does what I think the Governor believes the
21 people of this state want. This amendment says
22 very, very simple, we have 211 people that work
23 on the third floor. Those 211 people all have
3913
1 some say in the budget, as Senator Leichter
2 said. We may not have a lot of voice in that
3 budget, but we have a voice in that budget. We
4 have a constitutional responsibility to pass a
5 budget on time. That constitutional responsi
6 bility does not extend to our staff. They
7 weren't elected. They weren't given the power
8 by the people to create a budget. We were given
9 that power, 211 people, and what this amendment
10 says that those 211 people shouldn't be paid
11 because the constitutional deadline hasn't been
12 met.
13 But what it also says is that in
14 the Legislature, the people who work for us, who
15 have the same needs as the people on the second
16 floor, the same mortgages, the same family
17 obligations, the same obligations to their
18 children to pay tuition, to pay for their books,
19 to provide their shelter, their heat and
20 everything else, that they will be paid just as
21 on the second floor the Governor can decide.
22 This bill says that the
23 Legislature, legislators, the responsibility,
3914
1 the constitutional obligation rests with us, not
2 with them. Let's get over this tactic of
3 bullying, as Senator Waldon expressed it. Let's
4 get beyond that. Let's deal with ourselves in a
5 way that may be politically popular but let's
6 not punish the people that work for us.
7 This bill will do that. It will
8 require that no elected official that works on
9 the third floor would be paid. No elected
10 official that works on the second floor would be
11 paid. That's the safe way to do it. That's the
12 fair way to do it. That meets the goal that the
13 Governor wants and ascribes the punishment to
14 fit the criminal, the punishment that is the
15 loss of pay will fit those of us who haven't
16 fulfilled our constitutional obligation.
17 I would recommend to everyone in
18 this chamber that they seriously consider this
19 amendment. Let's pay the people who work for
20 us. We can take our own medicine.
21 I'd move the amendment, Mr.
22 President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3915
1 The question is on the amendment. All those in
2 favor of the amendment signify by saying aye.
3 (Response of "Aye.")
4 Opposed nay.
5 (Response of "Nay." )
6 The amendment fails.
7 Senator Paterson, on the bill.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
9 I think finally, a ray of light has shown in
10 this chamber. Senator Waldon, I think, his
11 remarks were very instructive, and I think we
12 should listen to what he said.
13 He said that the Comptroller, and
14 this is in his questioning, has the appropria
15 tion to pay the legislative staff. There's
16 nothing in this legislation that takes the
17 finances away from the Comptroller, and so with
18 the Comptroller having the authority and the
19 money, the Comptroller will pay the legislative
20 staff.
21 I cannot explain the confusion
22 but I can understand what Senator Waldon said.
23 I think that is most instructive. I think we
3916
1 all need to listen to it. Therefore, it's my
2 understanding that the legislative staff, the
3 Executive Chamber, anyone else will get paid and
4 that's only appropriate. They worked and they
5 got paid. It's real simple after all of this
6 complicated diatribe, they worked and they got
7 paid.
8 In addition to that, this
9 particular paycheck for the calendar week March
10 8th through the second week ending March 22nd,
11 so this goes back to 1994-1995 and so there's
12 ethics, there's reason, there's morality and
13 finally there's sanity once we went through that
14 question that Senator Waldon raised, and the
15 very gracious response by the Majority Leader.
16 The Majority Leader feels that
17 we're all working a little hard on this issue,
18 but I guess that's how we could pass the
19 budget. We work hard, we struggle and
20 eventually we come to an understanding. I think
21 they call that the Socratic method, and through
22 that method, we've reached an understanding here
23 today, and that is that the Comptroller has the
3917
1 financial appropriation. He has the resources
2 to pay the staff. He has indicated that he will
3 pay the staff, and let me say that all of you
4 deserve it, and you will be paid. If you are
5 not, you go back and insist that you get paid
6 and if you aren't paid, you tell them that I
7 said so.
8 Thank you, Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
10 The Secretary will read the last section.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll
12 call, Mr. President.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll
16 call.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Slow roll call. Are there five members present
19 that desire a slow roll call? I see four. Call
20 the roll. Please call -
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
22 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, I'd like to
23 be -
3918
1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
2 Senator Abate to explain her vote.
3 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I vote
4 reluctantly yes because it's an opportunity to
5 lessen the pain to workers throughout the state,
6 but this bill to me represents stupidity at its
7 worst and bribery at its best. It weakens the
8 notions of good government.
9 Who is responsible and who should
10 be accountable are the elected officials, all
11 that's in this room, not our secretaries,
12 receptionists, people who work in our district
13 office who have nothing to do with passing a
14 budget.
15 I am disappointed in this
16 Governor. He should be providing the kind of
17 leadership that's needed to bring about a
18 budget, to bring about compromise leadership
19 that brings both parties together for a fruitful
20 end. What we see here again, I hate to use the
21 word stupidity, something that's counterprod
22 uctive. Again this is another day that every
23 one in this chamber, whether you're Republican
3919
1 or Democratic, should feel regret at the notion
2 of having to pass this bill so that we lessen
3 the pain for many workers.
4 Again, why are we here? Why can't
5 we take the high road? Why can't we be
6 efficient, effective and do something that makes
7 sense? Nothing in this bill is common sense. We
8 are better than this bill.
9 Thank you.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
11 Senator Abate, how do you vote?
12 SENATOR ABATE: Reluctantly yes.
13 I guess that's yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
15 Senator Abate votes yes. Continue the roll.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
17 SENATOR BABBUSH: Yes.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno.
19 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
21 (There was no response. )
22 Senator Cook.
23 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
3920
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 DeFrancisco.
3 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
5 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Dollinger.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
9 President, to explain my vote.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
11 Senator Dollinger to explain his vote.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
13 President, I'm disappointed that the
14 20-year-long effort by this house to maintain
15 the balance of power between the Legislature and
16 the executive branch seems to be disappearing
17 with this vote, that what we are doing is
18 enabling the executive branch to do something
19 that the Legislature will not be permitted to do
20 for its own employees.
21 I can't find the rationale why
22 100,000 employees in the state work force will
23 get paid and the people that work for me
3921
1 including my $7800 a year secretary will not. I
2 believe we are taking a step backward in the
3 balance of power. I believe we are sacrificing
4 it to the second floor. If there were a way I
5 could vote against this bill, believe me, I
6 would. I will not, however, punish the 200,000
7 people who are working today for this state by
8 voting against this bill, but mark my words this
9 is the wrong direction for this body to take and
10 we are making a constitutional mistake, a
11 legislative mistake, and a public policy
12 mistake.
13 I would still vote aye.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
15 Continue the roll.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
17 President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
19 Senator Paterson, why do you rise?
20 SENATOR PATERSON: I wasn't sure
21 if I was hearing -- I wasn't sure if I was
22 hearing bells ringing. Now I'm not sure why I'm
23 hearing them.
3922
1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
2 Continue the roll.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
4 (There was no response. )
5 Senator Farley.
6 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber.
8 (There was no response. )
9 Senator Gold.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, may
11 I briefly explain my vote.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
13 Senator Gold to explain his vote.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Dollinger,
15 I understand that this is the wrong way to go,
16 but reluctantly many people are voting for it.
17 I don't believe in that. I believe that if this
18 Senate were running the Russian government in
19 the 1800s we'd all be speaking French today
20 because they wouldn't have the guts to do what
21 they did and go out there and meet the enemy and
22 burn fields if you have to.
23 The way that you get 200,000
3923
1 people paid is by doing the right thing, the
2 right thinking working for a budget. We've all
3 been working for a budget, but you don't say
4 that a piece of legislation is philosophically
5 wrong, philosophically offensive, and then vote
6 for it.
7 But I'll make one last deal. If
8 the Governor doesn't get paid, then, this bill
9 is O.K., but the bill's a fraud because he does
10 get paid because when I get paid and my staff
11 gets paid, we use that money for housing, for
12 food and for other things, and as long as the
13 Governor is getting his housing free, he's
14 getting his food free, he's getting his car
15 free, he's getting his gas free, he's being
16 paid. So he doesn't have some money right now
17 to send to the savings banks and to do whatever
18 he does with his money, it's not for me to say.
19 But if you had a bill that put every state
20 worker in the same situation as the Governor,
21 that's O.K. That's O.K. It's a fraud. It's
22 wrong, and we ought to have the guts to say it's
23 wrong.
3924
1 I vote no.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3 Continue the roll.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Gonzalez.
6 (There was no response. )
7 Senator Goodman.
8 (There was no response. )
9 Senator Hannon.
10 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock.
12 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Hoffmann.
15 (There was no response. )
16 Senator Holland.
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
19 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones.
21 SENATOR JONES: Explain my vote.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 Senator Jones to explain her vote.
3925
1 SENATOR JONES: I listened to
2 everything my colleague just said, and I agree
3 with him and I'm ashamed to be standing up here
4 and having in any way to support this bill, but
5 I -- I can't support it without offering a few
6 things.
7 It's very interesting to me that
8 I offered a bill the last two years to not pay
9 legislators if the budget wasn't passed. I
10 thought that was a fine idea. Funny, I didn't
11 get anybody else that wanted to go along with me
12 or sign onto my bill or support it in the last
13 two years. So it's very interesting to me that
14 now this year we're going to take the stand.
15 Well, I firmly believe that we
16 should not get paid. We made this choice to go
17 through an election and to do whatever we did to
18 get here, and I'm positive many of us are
19 sitting here today saying "why," but
20 nevertheless we did, so we deserve not to be
21 paid.
22 But I'm sorry, I can't accept
23 this story about the political hacks. When I
3926
1 was elected to this office, I got over 200
2 applications to work for me, none of whom I of
3 heard of. They weren't political people. They
4 were college graduates who were looking for a
5 job, and that's who's working for me today,
6 people who were looking for a job. And let me
7 tell you something, I was one of those people
8 all my life that supported a family of four and
9 if that paycheck didn't come on Friday, it was a
10 serious problem, and I have people working for
11 me that it is today, and I'm ashamed that we're
12 standing here saying that these people are going
13 to be punished for whoever's inefficiency who is
14 responsible for this, this year, last year and I
15 understand the last 17 years; so I can't stand
16 still and let thousands of others go without
17 money, so I'll support this, but I think
18 everybody ought to be ashamed that we are not
19 saying, Don't pay us, but for heaven's sake, pay
20 the person who has to pay their rent and didn't
21 choose to work run for election and be a public
22 official.
23 I'll vote yes.
3927
1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
2 Senator Jones yes. Please continue the roll.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
4 SENATOR KRUGER: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
6 SENATOR KUHL: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
8 SENATOR LACK: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
10 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
14 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Leichter.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
18 President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
20 Senator Leichter to explain his vote.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: To explain my
22 vote. There was an important debate in the
23 House of Representatives last week and a very
3928
1 similar measure and a very conservative
2 Republican, the chairman of the Judiciary
3 Committee, Congressman Henry Hyde, got up and
4 made a great speech and one of the things he
5 said, "I don't want to be part of dumbing down
6 democracy," and that's what we're doing here
7 now.
8 It's the cheap, it's these
9 mechanical, it's the simplistic notion whether
10 it's term limits or don't pay legislators if
11 they don't pass a particular bill or a budget in
12 time, all you're doing is eroding democracy. My
13 good friend and colleague, Mary Ellen Jones,
14 talked about inefficiencies. You know what the
15 synonym for in efficiencies are? It's
16 democracy.
17 We've been engaged in a real
18 tough political battle here representing
19 different viewpoints and how this budget ought
20 to be put together, but we have worked, we've
21 worked hard. The notion and the idea that we
22 are not going to be paid, but even worse that
23 the staff is not going to be paid, that they're
3929
1 being held hostage, I think it's a disgrace. I
2 think probably Senator Gold is doing the right
3 thing, but I cannot, I cannot vote to deny
4 perfectly innocent state workers some 200,000 of
5 them, the ability to be paid since the Governor
6 has said that he's not going to sign a bill
7 which would only -- which would provide that
8 only legislators and the Governor and statewide
9 officials not get paid, which if you got to
10 throw some red meat to the voters after you've
11 riled them up with all these speeches, O.K., do
12 it that way, but since the only way that you're
13 going to get these state employees paid is to
14 vote for or pass a bill like this, I'm going to
15 vote for it, but I really feel that I have been
16 part of a dumbing down of democracy.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Senator Leichter, how do you vote?
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: After this, I
20 don't know myself. No, I -- is it how I'd like
21 to vote or how I'm going to vote? I'm sorry, Mr.
22 President. I vote in the affirmative.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3930
1 Continue the roll.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
3 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
5 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator
9 Marcellino.
10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
12 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Markowitz.
15 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Mr.
16 President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Senator Markowitz to explain his vote.
19 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: If -- I think
20 if the truth be told, state workers will know
21 that if so many of them didn't live in Senator
22 Bruno's district or Senator Farley, the chances
23 are the Republican Majority would cut them off
3931
1 just like they're cutting off our state -- our
2 legislative workers. Not a question about that
3 in my mind, not a question about it. So I know
4 that when push comes to shove and the pressure
5 is on, even conservative legislators in the
6 Republican Party will respond to votes. That's
7 for sure.
8 That's refreshing in a way, but
9 the truth is that I believe that the great
10 majority of Republican legislators here in this
11 chamber know that what we're doing is wrong once
12 you've been convinced to walk lockstep with your
13 Governor so that you appear to be on the same
14 team with your Governor, but I think it's
15 important that as legislators, there were times
16 when we Democrats on this side disagree with our
17 Governor and did not always vote with Governor
18 Cuomo or Governor Carey, and that's true. There
19 were times when this conference did not step
20 together with our Democratic Governor, and there
21 are times when I think it's important in order
22 to mature Governor Pataki, that you also ought
23 not step with him when he's wrong, and this is
3932
1 wrong.
2 Now, Senator Spano, I read in the
3 paper and heard on the radio that he'll be
4 cooking for his staff. I hope he has a lot of
5 room for a lot of other staff members here, many
6 of whom legislators here don't know how to cook,
7 and so to penalize, we're ready, Senator Spano,
8 we're ready, Senator Spano. I don't know how
9 you cook, whether you're good or not, but since
10 you're treating, we'll join you.
11 The bottom line is that to take
12 it out on our staffs you know, every one of you
13 know it's wrong. You know it's wrong, and you
14 haven't got the chutzpah, you haven't got
15 whatever it is to get up and say, "I'm not
16 accepting this." Shame, shame, shame! I have no
17 choice but to vote yes on this because the state
18 workers, because of state workers, because of
19 state workers. I don't want it on my
20 conscience, but what you're doing, what you're
21 forcing us to do for yourselves and for us is
22 wrong.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3933
1 Senator, how do you vote?
2 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
4 Senator Bruno.
5 SENATOR BRUNO: How did the
6 Senator vote?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: He
8 voted yes.
9 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: For the state
10 workers.
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Oh, thank you.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz.
13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Montgomery.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
19 Senator Montgomery to explain her vote.
20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
21 President, to explain my vote briefly.
22 I've been a member of a union and
23 I've supported union workers, employees, across
3934
1 the state and in the city of New York, and so I
2 really have a commitment to the whole notion of
3 organized labor. I believe in it, and I support
4 it. However, there was a point in time in this
5 nation, when if there were a problem with a
6 small group of employees, nothing would
7 function, because there was a kind of cohesive
8 ness, a kind of commitment to unity and strength
9 of the total that the unions projected that they
10 represented, and that they did.
11 And so I feel really, I feel very
12 mixed feelings, I want to support the fact that
13 any person who is a member of any union who is
14 working for the state gets paid but at the same
15 time I am ashamed of the fact that we did not
16 have the same kind of unity and strength that
17 protects all of the workers, and I am going to
18 vote no, not because I am not supportive of
19 organized labor, not because I am not supportive
20 of the unions that work for the state, but
21 because what I am is my staff. My staff works
22 sometimes 24 hours. If we have to go 24 hours,
23 we go 24 hours.
3935
1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
2 Excuse me, Senator, could I interrupt?
3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I vote no.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5 Excuse me. Senator Montgomery votes no. Please
6 continue the roll.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
8 SENATOR NANULA: Explain my
9 vote.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
11 Senator Nanula to explain his vote.
12 SENATOR NANULA: Senator Jones in
13 her comments in her explanation indicated she
14 was a supporter of the union workers but you
15 supported no pay for legislators for late
16 budgets. Well, Senator, you were equivocal
17 about that in your vote. As a matter of fact,
18 as one Senator last year, I not only introduced
19 legislation but beyond that gave back my pay,
20 $7900 of net pay, as a means of standing up in
21 regards to the legislation to not pay
22 legislators. It's my opinion that certainly if
23 we can't get a budget done on time, we should
3936
1 suspend our pay.
2 What I also wanted to comment on
3 though, is my really -- my severe concern for
4 lack of a better expression, over the concept
5 behind not paying staff. I am really confused.
6 I asked Senator Stafford in the Finance
7 Committee meeting yesterday, what is the
8 purpose, what's the rationale? I certainly
9 wasn't satisfied with his answer. I can
10 understand a logical rationale. I can
11 understand not paying legislators but not paying
12 staff? The last time I looked I was the person
13 casting a vote, not a staff member, not my
14 secretary in my district office who makes
15 $18,000 a year and who is a single mother and
16 who lives paycheck to paycheck. I don't recall
17 her sitting in this chamber voting on
18 legislation.
19 I think it's unfair. I don't
20 think there's a basis of logic and if there's no
21 basis of logic, in my opinion, there must be
22 another basis, and I don't think we should bring
23 politics into this chamber, and I don't think we
3937
1 should allow politics to affect people who are
2 working hard for the betterment of this state.
3 But for other reasons that I've
4 discussed, I vote yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
6 Continue the roll, please.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Nozzolio.
9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr.
10 President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
12 Senator Nozzolio to explain his vote.
13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
14 President, my colleagues.
15 This is not a question of pay.
16 This is a question of budget. Senator Waldon,
17 Senator Dollinger, sanctimonious quotations of
18 objections to violations of obscure case law or
19 other regulatory matters. Look at the state
20 Constitution, ladies and gentlemen. It says
21 April 1st there is to be a budget. This is not
22 April 1st. It's not April 2nd. It's not April
23 3rd. It's April 4th, and we have no budget.
3938
1 Read the Speaker's lips, No New Budget.
2 The Governor agreed to a budget.
3 The Senate passed a budget. The Assembly has
4 done nothing. Unlike Governor Cuomo who we had
5 to sue to bring the budget bills to the
6 Legislature on time, Governor Pataki obeyed the
7 law and by February 1st submitted the budget
8 with the budget bills. He urged us all in his
9 State of the State address to pass the budget on
10 time. Four months, three months ago today on
11 January 4th, you were all in the chamber, you
12 all heard the Governor. He said we need to pass
13 the budget on time.
14 Ladies and gentlemen, save the
15 sanctimonious tongue lashing not for this bill
16 but for the fact we have no budget. Take your
17 energies, walk down the hall, tell the Assembly
18 to pass a budget. You passed a budget. We
19 passed a budget, the Assembly refuses to pass a
20 budget.
21 That's what this issue is about.
22 It's not about pay. It's about complying with
23 the state Constitution. It's about doing our
3939
1 job. It's about passing the budget on April 1st
2 on time.
3 Mr. President, I vote aye.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5 Please continue the roll.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
8 Senator Onorato to explain his vote.
9 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President,
10 to explain my vote.
11 I've heard all of the arguments
12 here about why what we're doing here is wrong
13 and I'm a firm believer as a former secretary
14 treasurer of the bricklayers' union, I fight for
15 the rights of all people, whether we're union or
16 non-union, and our country has been formed on
17 the basis that you convict only the guilty. You
18 never, never want to harm the innocent and, in
19 this particular case, the three amendments that
20 were presented were articles of fairness to
21 address only the guilty, and I find that my
22 staff are not guilty of any process of this
23 budget.
3940
1 I, therefore, vote no because
2 they are being deprived of their pay and they
3 are not guilty of that act.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5 Senator Onorato votes no. Please continue the
6 roll.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Oppenheimer.
9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Well, I am
10 going to vote yes.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
12 Senator Oppenheimer to explain her vote.
13 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Oh, thank
14 you, Mr. President.
15 I am going to vote yes, but I
16 can't decide if I'm very bright or very stupid
17 because I can not understand why we are doing
18 this. We are the people that have not passed
19 the budget; we are the ones that should forego
20 our salaries. I do not understand what my
21 secretary in the district office who knows
22 nothing about or very little about what I'm
23 doing up here because she's dealing with
3941
1 constituent problems, what she has to do with
2 the casting of my vote.
3 I would like to respond just
4 briefly to what Senator Nozzolio said. He's
5 sounding sanctimonious now because he's saying
6 we're sounding sanctimonious. The fact is I
7 think there's a rewriting of history here
8 because for ten years at least since I've been
9 up here, the fact is the Majority in this house
10 did hold up the Democratic Governor's budget and
11 they passed as late as two months, even more,
12 two and a half months late, so I think this is
13 the opposition simply trying to persuade and
14 find some middle ground here and, as you might
15 have been wrong in the last ten years and
16 perhaps you could say we are wrong today, but we
17 are trying our hardest with this Pataki budget
18 which, in my opinion, is a very ill-conceived
19 budget that has created enormous division and
20 dislocation amongst the citizens of our state as
21 well as amongst us.
22 There are huge philosophic
23 differences with this budget and unless we all
3942
1 sit down and try and find some middle ground, we
2 are never going to have a budget.
3 But I am forced to vote yes even
4 though I feel this is a very, very unfortunate
5 business we're at.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
7 Continue the roll, please.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator
11 Paterson.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Explain my
13 vote.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
15 Senator Paterson to explain his vote.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
17 I'd like to give kudos to Senator Montgomery and
18 Senator Gold who actually voted against this
19 piece of legislation and to all of my Democratic
20 colleagues who have gotten up and raised some
21 important issues. However, as important as
22 these issues are, let's just remember that we're
23 really talking in a sense of symbolism because
3943
1 we're talking about what was attempted but what
2 was not achieved.
3 To be specific, the Comptroller
4 of the state of New York says that he has the
5 appropriations to pay the legislative staff and
6 he will pay the legislative staff since that
7 comes under his authority. Any attempt to deny
8 the Comptroller that authority and to deny
9 legislative staff their pay checks tomorrow will
10 incur personal and civil liability on the part
11 of anybody who would try to thwart that actual
12 process, so let's just make that point very
13 clear. There may have been an attempt not to
14 pay people, but it wasn't right. It was out of
15 line, and, at this point any further attempt
16 would be illegal and those who want to go
17 forward if they choose to will incur whatever
18 liability comes to them because of taking that
19 -- that step.
20 So the staff will be paid.
21 Otherwise this legislation allows for all
22 employees of state agencies to be paid. So just
23 to summarize, this legislation is an
3944
1 appropriation to allow state agencies to be paid
2 and where the legislative staff is concerned,
3 the Comptroller has the authority and will
4 exercise the authority because we have given the
5 Comptroller the appropriation to pay the staff
6 on April the 5th as scheduled. That is really
7 the final determination and, therefore, I will
8 vote for the bill.
9 Now, on the attempt and what it
10 symbolizes and what was attempted here, it's
11 horrible. It's outrageous, but we've been over
12 that. Basically we're not going to hold anybody
13 here who wants to vote for this bill and allow
14 for 200,000 people to be paid, responsible for
15 the fact that some people are irresponsible.
16 Again, in summation, this bill
17 allows for the payment of all state agency
18 employees. Where the legislative staff is
19 concerned, the Comptroller will exercise his
20 authority with the appropriation that we gave
21 him and will pay the legislative staff. As a
22 matter of fact, Mr. President, I think we can
23 discontinue the roll call and go on to something
3945
1 else, because this matter is now settled.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3 How do you vote, Senator Paterson?
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, I vote for
5 the bill, Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
7 Please continue the roll.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
11 SENATOR RATH: Aye.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
13 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator
15 Santiago.
16 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Yes.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears.
18 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
20 SENATOR SEWARD: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
3946
1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
2 Senator Smith to explain her vote.
3 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President, I
4 actually stand to pay tribute to my staff who
5 will not be getting paid because they have the
6 backbone to tell me that I should vote for this
7 bill because of the state workers that are
8 involved, because they did not want to see them
9 in the same predicament that they will be in,
10 unable to buy gasoline, unable to buy food,
11 unable to pay for the day care for their
12 children.
13 It's a sad day for we are forced
14 to take one worker and pit them against another
15 and I will reluctantly vote yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
17 Senator Smith votes yes. Please continue the
18 roll.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon.
20 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr.
21 President, to explain my vote.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 Senator Solomon to explain his vote.
3947
1 SENATOR SOLOMON: As I said
2 earlier, I think it's inherently unfair not to
3 pay the legislative employees in view of the
4 fact that we're paying high paid commissioners,
5 assistant commissioners and a lot of other
6 political appointees. However, I don't believe
7 that you vote against a piece of legislation
8 which could end up resulting in even greater
9 harm to a larger percent and, in effect, a large
10 part of the state work force, because I can tell
11 you now, many of the legislative employees here
12 in Albany, because of the coverage, the
13 landlords, maybe some of the banks will
14 understand the plight they're going to be in.
15 Unfortunately, in New York City, this is not
16 getting the same amount of coverage as it is
17 here in Albany, and those people are not going
18 to be fortunate enough to understand when the
19 employee says, "I didn't get paid but I'm going
20 to get paid."
21 And just as the same situation I
22 would not want to see that happen to all the
23 state workers, tens of thousands of state
3948
1 workers downstate trying to deal with their
2 landlord, with their bank, et cetera, tell them,
3 "Well, I'm going to get paid but I'm not
4 getting paid until this budget is passed."
5 So I'm going to vote yes for this
6 bill only under the theory that we will do less
7 harm to a larger number of people, but I just
8 hope that a lot of my colleagues are generous
9 enough also to offer to make loans to those
10 employees that might need them at no interest
11 because that's basically what's happening.
12 We're putting some people really
13 with their backs against their wall, whether it
14 be single mothers who have to pay for day care,
15 or people that have to pay for their food bills
16 or that have got a kid in college. So I'm going
17 to vote for this bill, but I hope that there's
18 enough sympathy on the part of the employees
19 here to come up with some method or mechanism to
20 help their individual staff members and see how
21 generous they are to them in a time of need.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 Senator Solomon, how do you vote?
3949
1 SENATOR SOLOMON: In the
2 affirmative.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
4 Please continue the roll.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
6 SENATOR SPANO: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Stachowski.
9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explain my
10 vote.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
12 Senator Stachowski to explain his vote.
13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I don't want
14 to see the state workers not get paid and, for
15 that reason, I'm going to vote for this, but I
16 got to comment on Senator Nozzolio's remarks.
17 As long as I've been here, it's always seemed to
18 me that to pass a budget, you have to bring all
19 three parties to the table, come out with an
20 agreement and pass it, and just because one
21 party won't agree to your system, you can't turn
22 around and say, well, that party is responsible
23 for us not passing the budget when, in fact,
3950
1 it's the Governor's job. Regardless of who the
2 Governor is, whether he's a Democrat or a
3 Republican, he's supposed to lead the state.
4 He's supposed to find a way to bring those
5 parties together, to come out with a document
6 that everyone can vote for or against, but will
7 be on the floor in both houses, the same
8 document, and then a budget will be passed.
9 Anything less means the Governor
10 is a failure on this particular issue. The
11 Governor has failed to get a budget passed in
12 spite of his promises, and now he sends up a pay
13 bill that, if you're -- like in my case, I'm the
14 ranking member of the Labor Committee, I can't
15 vote against a bill that pays the state workers,
16 but he sends up a bill that says I'm going to
17 pay all the workers that work in the Executive
18 Chamber, but any secretary that happens to have
19 the misfortune of working for the Legislature,
20 no matter how pressed she'll become, no matter
21 if she's going to lose her car, lose her
22 apartment, whatever happens to that family,
23 well, that's too bad because the Assembly didn't
3951
1 pass the budget. Something's wrong with that
2 message.
3 I'm sorry that the Governor is
4 not being fair, I'm sorry that the Governor
5 couldn't get a budget passed, that he couldn't
6 bring the parties together, that part way
7 through the last week of coming to a budget
8 deadline he decided to go ahead with one-house
9 bills and say, "I'm in agreement with the
10 Senate," when he knew darned well that it wasn't
11 a budget, it wasn't real, and we wasted a week
12 where we should have been still trying to
13 negotiate because that's the charge he has, and
14 that's the charge the leaders have to negotiate
15 the budget, put one on the floor that we can all
16 either vote for or against, so, unfortunately, I
17 vote for this bill, but I just feel terrible for
18 all the employees, particularly the employees of
19 the people on the other side of the aisle who
20 probably worked very hard not only in passing
21 the one-house budget but in getting Governor
22 Pataki elected.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3952
1 Senator Stachowski, how do you vote?
2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Vote yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
4 Please continue the roll.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford.
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
8 Senator Stafford to explain his vote.
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you. I
10 think that we cannot emphasize enough what has
11 been said here about us not having a budget.
12 Believe it or not, the professionals can sit
13 down and really put a budget together if people
14 cooperate and people are willing to share
15 information so that they can get the various
16 numbers and work from there.
17 Mr. President, this has not been
18 done, and this is why we have this bill today to
19 pay the state workers and there are some very
20 serious aspects in this bill. But it's also
21 very serious that we don't have a budget and the
22 people throughout the state are saying we send
23 them there, and we can put people on the moon
3953
1 but we can't get a budget and I think, Mr.
2 President, we have to emphasize that the
3 Majority of the other house has refused to
4 cooperate again to provide the numbers, the in
5 formation necessary to sit down and to put a
6 sensible budget together.
7 I vote yes, but I also implore, I
8 request that all, including the Majority in the
9 other house, sit down seriously and begin
10 working toward putting together a budget that
11 the people in this state deserve.
12 Thank you.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
14 Senator Stafford in the affirmative. Please
15 continue the roll.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Stavisky.
18 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr.
19 President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
21 Senator Stavisky to explain his vote.
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: How quickly we
23 change the script based upon who the governor
3954
1 is. Some of you are old enough to remember 1992
2 when there was another occupant of the
3 governor's office. His name was Mario Cuomo.
4 He had a plane ready to go to New Hampshire to
5 declare his candidacy, and this house would not
6 let Mario Cuomo have a budget on time for fear
7 that he might run for President of the United
8 States.
9 He apparently was not
10 invincible. We proved it in the 1994 election,
11 but I don't believe that history should be
12 written solely on the basis of who is the
13 occupant of the second floor. If the Governor
14 was responsible in 1992 for the failure to
15 produce a budget, and I think the failure was
16 really in this house, then that responsibility
17 should carry over to 1995 regardless of the
18 change in the occupancy of the Governor's
19 office.
20 Again, on the issue of merit, are
21 Senate interns, called Senate assistants, stud
22 ents, to be denied their compensation? They
23 receive the magnificent sum of $2500 for the
3955
1 entire session, and we are denying the interns
2 who work in our offices the right to be compen
3 sated for food money while they get $2500 for
4 the entire session.
5 If you want to have a standard,
6 why not policy-makers and those earning in
7 excess of $53,000? Why not make that the cut
8 off point for all of the categories that are
9 listed in this bill that are excluded from this
10 bill. But you are now taking food money from
11 the Senate assistants, for students and others
12 who are not paid the sums that are given to the
13 Governor and some of his staff.
14 I notice again the absence of the
15 Lt. Governor. Her salary should definitely not
16 be paid, and I was so impressed with the way
17 that Randy Kuhl ran the Senate in her absence
18 that I would be prepared to support Senator Kuhl
19 for Lt. Governor or abolish the office and make
20 him a permanent presiding officer (applause) or
21 you, sir. That's where you can economize.
22 Where is the Lt. Governor? She
23 hasn't been seen. We want a "Wanted" poster put
3956
1 up or maybe a "Missing" poster put up with her
2 picture and her name. But I think this is
3 foolish. This is petty. This is partisan.
4 This is mean-spirited. If you want to find the
5 responsibility, continue it downstairs to the
6 second floor.
7 I vote aye on this bill.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
9 Please continue the roll.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo.
11 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
13 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
15 SENATOR VELELLA: Explain my
16 vote.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Senator Velella to explain his vote.
19 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator
20 Stavisky, again, I've got to answer you. Don't
21 worry about the Lt. Governor. She is merely
22 keeping the schedule that Stan Lundine had, left
23 over when he left here. You know, that house
3957
1 hold name, that name that knew what he was doing
2 at all times. You remember Stan Lundine. She's
3 just following the commitment that he had made
4 and left over when he left office.
5 But let me talk a little about
6 history. You talk about rewriting history.
7 That's what we're doing here today, when during
8 the great Cuomo years, the years that led us to
9 where we are now, when we have two parts of the
10 puzzle firmly committed saying where they would
11 spend the money, how they would raise the money
12 and agreeing on exactly what would be done.
13 We've showed our hand, we've put our cards on
14 the table, and I just heard the Governor saying
15 to Shelly, What did you want to sit at the table
16 and bargain? How much money do you want to
17 spend? Where do you want to spend it? And the
18 Speaker still refuses until today to tell the
19 Governor, to tell this house how, when and where
20 he wants to spend the money.
21 How do you bargain with somebody
22 who just totally refuses to even tell you what
23 they want? It's impossible to deal with someone
3958
1 like that. We've got an impossible Speaker.
2 We've produced a budget. Two out of the three
3 parties are ready to go. The third party
4 refuses to negotiate and even tell us what his
5 dream wish is, just to start the negotiation.
6 How can you possibly deal with
7 someone like that and try to blame the
8 Governor? The Governor is right. He has
9 prepared a budget. It's been accepted by one of
10 these houses. We put our cards on the table.
11 Never before in the history of Mario Cuomo that
12 I can remember was that done. The Assembly
13 didn't pass his budget and say, We are
14 completely agreed; now you go ahead, Senate.
15 We've always had the burden of trying to get
16 together with the Governor where the houses
17 didn't agree with him, his own houses, so don't
18 say we're rewriting history. You're the one
19 rewriting history. We have two parts of the
20 puzzle solved. The third party won't even put
21 their request on the table. I vote aye.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 Please continue the roll.
3959
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
2 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
4 SENATOR WALDON: To explain my
5 vote.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
7 Senator Waldon to explain his vote.
8 SENATOR WALDON: Mirror, mirror
9 on the wall, on this issue. Who would prove to
10 be the baddest of them all? I believe it is not
11 the second floor who would be Superman or even
12 our house nor the lower house or today some
13 Kryptonite was thrown out in the path of this
14 process. I believe the true Superman will be
15 the Honorable Carl McCall, because tomorrow he
16 will issue the checks and he will ensure that
17 the little people are able to buy the bread and
18 the victuals for their families, pay their rent
19 and all other necessities of life.
20 It is most unfortunate that some
21 of my colleagues have tried to paint a picture
22 where it seems that we on this side of the aisle
23 are stonewalling this process, are being
3960
1 sanctimonious. There are no sacred cows here.
2 We're all part of this process because we chose
3 to be. I believe that the mean-spiritedness
4 being shown by this Governor will haunt him
5 forever, that his legacy was that he was a bully
6 of the middle and the small and those who are
7 not able to defend themselves.
8 There's a bigger law than the law
9 which will allow Carl McCall to pay everyone
10 tomorrow, and that is the moral imperative and
11 those of us who are Christian readily recognize
12 the phrase which says "that which you do to the
13 least of My brethren you also do unto Me." And
14 so I think that the moral imperative says that
15 we must move forward. We must stop beating up
16 and grinding down and grinding out the little
17 people; we must stop feeding the rich with the
18 poor in this process. We must ensure that
19 everyone gets a fair shake.
20 Because of the fact that I
21 totally support the union structure, I'm going
22 to vote yes on this bill, but I want to
23 admonish, as did Montgomery, I wish to admonish
3961
1 the union structure they should not have gone
2 forward for themselves unless every single
3 individual impacted by this process would be
4 paid.
5 However, this is a fait accompli,
6 because we all know that everyone tomorrow will
7 be paid. In fact, I believe -- I believe there
8 was sufficient intelligence on the second floor
9 to know that, if the appropriations were left in
10 the bill, that everyone would be paid and
11 therefore, space could be saved in terms of the
12 newspapers and the media that, Yes, everybody
13 was paid. I did what I thought I had to do, but
14 in the final analysis the process took over and
15 that is see why I wasn't able to maintain things
16 as I promised that they would be maintained.
17 Those of us who are adults and
18 sophisticated understand what's really going
19 down here, and it's really O.K. It's O.K. It's
20 part of the blue smoke and mirrors that is
21 politics. Today the champion is us, the people
22 of the state of New York; tomorrow the champion
23 will be Carl McCall.
3962
1 I vote yes because he will pay
2 everybody tomorrow.
3 Thank you, Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5 Senator Waldon in the affirmative. Continue the
6 roll.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright.
8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
10 Please call the absentees.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
12 (Affirmative indication. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
14 (There was no response. )
15 Senator Galiber.
16 SENATOR GALIBER: To explain my
17 vote.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
19 Senator Galiber to explain his vote. I'm
20 sorry.
21 SENATOR GALIBER: Yes, Mr.
22 President. It's my understanding that part of
23 this process is that in theory that staff, our
3963
1 staff, will influence us and that's why they're
2 not being paid. I had a meeting with my staff
3 and they decided that someone had to stand up
4 for all the staff here in Albany that is not
5 getting paid. The unions are going to get paid
6 one way or the other.
7 My vote is in the negative. The
8 staff worked so very hard for us.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
10 Senator Galiber in the negative. Continue the
11 roll.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator
13 Gonzalez.
14 (There was no response. )
15 Senator Goodman.
16 (There was no response. )
17 Senator Hoffmann.
18 (There was no response. )
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
20 Results.
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53, nays 4.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 The bill is passed.
3964
1 Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
3 would you call up Calendar 361, Senate 3958.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5 The Secretary will read.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 361, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print
8 3958, an act making an appropriation for the
9 support of government.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
11 is there a message of necessity and
12 appropriation at the desk?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
14 Yes, there is.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: I move we
16 accept.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 All in favor of accepting the message of
19 necessity please signify by saying aye.
20 (Response of "Aye".)
21 Opposed, nay.
22 (There was no response.)
23 The message is accepted.
3965
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Last section.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3 Please read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
7 Call the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
11 The bill is passed.
12 Senator Skelos -- excuse me.
13 Senator Stafford, why do you
14 rise?
15 SENATOR STAFFORD: With Senator
16 Skelos' permission, could I please remind the
17 Finance members that we are in a meeting and
18 come right back in, please. We have six
19 nominees.
20 Thank you.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
22 There will be an immediate meeting of the
23 Finance Committee in Room 332.
3966
1 Senator -
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
3 would you recognize Senator Volker, please?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5 Senator Volker.
6 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President,
7 with the permission of the Majority Leader, the
8 Codes meeting that was -- excuse me -- scheduled
9 for noon in 708 will be held at approximately
10 12:30 or as soon as the Finance meeting is done
11 over here at the conference room. It will be in
12 Room 708 and will be at 12:30 or as soon
13 thereafter as we can do it after the Finance
14 meeting is done.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
16 Codes Committee meeting in 708 immediately after
17 the Finance Committee meeting or 12:30,
18 whichever is earlier.
19 Senator Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you
21 recognize Senator Mendez?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 Okay. Senator Skelos yields to Senator Mendez.
3967
1 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you.
2 There will be a Minority
3 Conference at 1:00 o'clock.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5 There will be a Minority Conference at 1:00 p.m.
6 Senator Cook.
7 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, we
8 will be having an Education Committee meeting at
9 1:00 o'clock.
10 Mr. President, I think
11 considering the fact the Minority has a
12 conference, out of courtesy to them, we'll delay
13 the Education Committee until later in the day.
14 I'll call it off the floor.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
16 All right. The Education Committee will be
17 called later in the day off the floor.
18 Senator Skelos.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr.
20 President. A reminder that there is a Finance
21 Committee meeting now, that Codes will follow
22 them in Senator Volker's conference room in the
23 LOB and the Senate will stand in recess until
3968
1 1:30 p.m. sharp.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3 Senator Seward -- okay.
4 The Senate is in recess until
5 1:30 p.m. sharp.
6 (Whereupon, at 12:11 p.m., the
7 Senate recessed.)
8 (The Senate reconvened at 2:00
9 p.m.)
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Senate will come to order.
12 The Chair recognizes Senator
13 Skelos.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr.
15 President. Is there a Resolution Calendar?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
17 a Resolution Calendar.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: I move that we
19 adopt the Resolution Calendar in its entirety.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 motion is to adopt the Resolution Calendar. All
22 those in favor signify by saying aye.
23 (Response of "Aye".)
3969
1 Opposed, nay.
2 (There was no response.)
3 The Resolution Calendar is
4 adopted.
5 Senator Skelos.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr.
7 President. At this time may we return to
8 reports of standing committees and, I believe
9 there's a Finance Committee report at the desk.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We will
11 return to reports of standing committees. The
12 Secretary will read the Finance report.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
14 from the Committee on Finance, reports the
15 following nomination: John A. Johnson of
16 Buffalo, Director of the Division For Youth.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Skelos.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please
20 recognize Senator Stafford.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
22 recognizes Senator Stafford.
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr.
3970
1 President.
2 We have a very fine nominee. We
3 were all most impressed and I have the pleasure
4 to yield to some fine Senators. I believe
5 Senator Nozzolio first and we'll have some other
6 Senators.
7 Thank you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
9 recognizes Senator Nozzolio.
10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 Mr. President, my colleagues, I
13 am very pleased to put forward for considera
14 tion, for confirmation by this house as a report
15 from the Senate Crime Victims, Crime and
16 Corrections Committee and the Senate Children
17 and Families Committee, along with the Senate
18 Finance Committee, Governor's Pataki's
19 nomination of John Johnson as Director for the
20 New York State Division For Youth; that Mr.
21 Johnson is extremely qualified in many diverse
22 areas.
23 He has a great management con
3971
1 sultant background, has worked for implementa
2 tion of anti-drug and resident initiative action
3 plans for the Department of Housing and Urban
4 Development. He has worked with young people
5 throughout his career in a variety of positions
6 and comes extremely well recommended.
7 I think that before I yield to
8 Senator Rath who would like to speak on this
9 nomination, I would like to say that Mr. Johnson
10 impressed our committee with his energy, his
11 enthusiasm and his interest in working in a very
12 difficult problem area in the criminal justice
13 system, and that's with young people.
14 Mr. President, I would now like
15 to yield to Senator Rath.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Rath, excuse me for just an interruption.
18 The Chair recognizes Senator Cook
19 for an announcement.
20 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I
21 would like to announce the Education Committee
22 will meet immediately in Room 124.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
3972
1 will be an immediate meeting of the Education
2 Committee in Room 124, Room 124.
3 The Chair recognizes Senator Rath
4 on the nomination.
5 SENATOR RATH: Thank you, Mr.
6 President, my colleagues.
7 It gives me a great deal of
8 pleasure to rise in support of the nomination of
9 John Johnson for the position of Commissioner of
10 the Department of Youth.
11 Many of the years that I was in
12 the Erie County Legislature, John Johnson served
13 as the Director of the Erie County Department of
14 Youth Services and prior to that, he served as
15 Director of the Erie County Department of
16 Criminal Justice Services. I had many occasions
17 to work with John and to know of the work that
18 he was doing.
19 Some of the questions that were
20 asked in the Finance Committee today dealt with
21 what kinds of programs that such -- or was John
22 going to be able to manage in relation to the
23 kinds of resources that there were for him, and
3973
1 resources to us usually transfers into dollars.
2 Well, in Erie County we didn't have much more
3 money than New York State has, and so -
4 although the dollars are, of course, a great
5 deal more here, comparatively, we worked out a
6 very, very tight budget in Erie County, and John
7 was well-known for the coalitions that he
8 developed: Collaborative efforts with municipal
9 youth bureaus, recreation departments, private
10 not-for-profit agencies, United Way, Catholic
11 Charities, Department of Social Services, on
12 down the line.
13 John found a way to get the job
14 done one way or another. If the dollars weren't
15 in his budget to get it done, he went around the
16 problem and went to one of the community
17 agencies that was going to make it possible for
18 him to get that job done for the young people
19 that he had in his charge.
20 John focuses primarily on
21 possibilities rather than on problems and he has
22 a very forceful and, I would say, stern concern
23 for how the young people in the facilities
3974
1 behave.
2 He said this afternoon in the
3 Finance Committee that the young people who had
4 found themselves under the care of his
5 department -- and in one of the facilities
6 because they had been involved in gangs and that
7 they expected those gangs were going to
8 continue, through their time in the facility
9 John was very clear that that's not going to be
10 allowed and someone made it a simile to the bad
11 apple spoiling all the barrel, John's comment
12 was "We're not going to allow for that. The bad
13 apples will be removed because the good young
14 people who are trying to get a handle on their
15 life and get a grip on what they're doing cannot
16 be poisoned and spoiled by one or two very bad
17 apples." As I said, I have a great deal of
18 pleasure in rising in support of this
19 nomination. I look forward to working with him.
20 And in conclusion, let me say
21 that John worked with both sides of the aisle in
22 Erie County. He'll work with both sides of the
23 aisle here as well as everyone else out there in
3975
1 the community. He's looking to go help the
2 young people.
3 Thank you.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
5 recognizes Senator Saland on the nomination.
6 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr.
7 President.
8 Mr. President, I can't profess
9 that I have known Mr. Johnson as long or as well
10 as our colleague, Senator Rath. My contact with
11 him has been of rather recent vintage, and I
12 consider myself fortunate to have had the
13 opportunity to meet with him, first privately
14 and then in the course of a number of meetings
15 in my capacity as the chairman of the Children
16 and Families Committee and as recently as a few
17 -- a couple of hours ago as a member of the
18 Finance Committee, and I must tell you, he's
19 impressed me as a very capable and dedicated
20 individual, one who certainly appears to be
21 rather bright and personable and with having
22 said all of those wonderful things, I sort of
23 question why he would want to be the head of DFY
3976
1 given its somewhat rather troubled history over
2 the course of the past several years, but I look
3 to him as being a source of remedying some of
4 the checkered events that have seemed to have
5 plagued the Division for Youth over, as I said,
6 some several years now. I think it's time for a
7 new approach. I think it's time for a strong
8 personality, one who, I believe, is both
9 sensitive to the needs of our young people and
10 yet, at the same time, understands that at times
11 there will be the need to perhaps resort to
12 means that the prior DFY officialdom would have
13 looked askance at. Namely, there are those who
14 have to be taken out of the population when
15 their misconduct warrants it.
16 I wish him nothing but the best.
17 I feel that we will have the opportunity to work
18 well together and look forward to resolving some
19 of the very same issues that I'm sure are number
20 one on his agenda.
21 The Governor has made a superb
22 appointment, and I think he will serve the
23 people of the state of New York as well as he
3977
1 has served in his various other capacities in
2 the federal government and in Erie County
3 government.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
5 recognizes Senator Nozzolio to close on the
6 confirmation.
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
8 President.
9 As was well stated by Senator
10 Rath and Senator Saland, we have an excellent
11 nominee here. I look to him to do great things
12 with a very troubled society and a troubled
13 agency in the sense that we need to, as Governor
14 Pataki said, be firm enough, fair enough, strong
15 enough, but ensure that we don't lose those
16 children along the way in placing them in a
17 setting -- in settings that would not be
18 appropriate.
19 Mr. President, it's an honor for
20 me to move the nomination of John Johnson.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 question is on the confirmation of John A.
23 Johnson as Director of the Division For Youth.
3978
1 All those in favor signify by saying aye.
2 (Response of "Aye".)
3 Opposed, nay.
4 (There was no response.)
5 The nominee is confirmed.
6 John Johnson, congratulations.
7 (Applause.)
8 And good luck.
9 The Secretary will read.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
11 from the Committee on Finance, offers the
12 following nomination: Charles A. Gargano, of
13 New York City, member of the Port Authority of
14 New York and New Jersey.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
16 would recognize Senator Stafford on the
17 nomination.
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would
19 incorporate the remarks of the people on this
20 side of the aisle when the ambassador was up for
21 nomination for the office of -- or as the
22 Commissioner/Director of the Department of
23 Economic Development. He's a fine nominee.
3979
1 He'll do an excellent job. I move his
2 nomination.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
4 recognizes Senator Levy on the nomination.
5 SENATOR LEVY: Thank you very
6 much, Mr. President.
7 Oh, I'm sorry, on the -- on the
8 Kalikow nomination.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 question is on the nomination of Charles A.
11 Gargano of Bay Shore to be a member of the Port
12 Authority of New York and New Jersey. All those
13 in favor of the nomination signify by saying
14 aye.
15 (Response of "Aye".)
16 Opposed, nay.
17 (There was no response.)
18 The confirmation is confirmed.
19 The Secretary will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
21 from the Committee on Finance, offers the
22 following nomination: Peter S. Kalikow, of New
23 York City, member of the Port Authority of New
3980
1 York and New Jersey.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
3 recognizes Senator Levy.
4 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. Thank you
5 very much, Mr. President.
6 Briefly, because Peter Kalikow's
7 name was before this Senate in late June to
8 become a member of the MTA Board.
9 Let me say that the hopes of
10 myself and so many others in this chamber that
11 we were going to have a new breed of members of
12 the MTA Board, types of leaders like Peter
13 Kalikow who had a hands-on involvement in every
14 phase of the operation of the MTA Board, were
15 realized with his appointment and his going on
16 the MTA Board because he has fulfilled that hope
17 and that expectation. He has been involved in
18 every single aspect of the operation of the MTA
19 Board and we came to the very, very important
20 issue of the merger of the Transit Authority
21 Police Department into the New York City Police
22 Department, though he and David Mack and other
23 members of the board opposed the transfer of
3981
1 that police department into the New York City
2 Police Department -
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Levy, excuse me just a minute.
5 Senator Paterson, why do you
6 rise?
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
8 I'm very sorry to interrupt Senator Levy, but do
9 we have a quorum here?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary informs me we do have a quorum,
12 Senator Paterson.
13 SENATOR CONNOR: Request a quorum
14 call. Ask for a quorum call.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: May we have a
16 quorum call, Mr. President?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The clerk
18 will call the roll.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
20 (There was no response.)
21 Senator Babbush.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Bruno.
3982
1 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
3 (Affirmative indication.)
4 Senator Cook.
5 (There was no response.)
6 Senator DeFrancisco.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator DiCarlo.
9 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator
11 Dollinger.
12 (There was no response.)
13 Senator Espada.
14 SENATOR ESPADA: Here.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
16 SENATOR FARLEY: Here.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Gold.
20 (There was no response.)
21 Senator Gonzalez.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Goodman, excused.
3983
1 Senator Hannon.
2 SENATOR HANNON: Here.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock.
4 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Here.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Holland.
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
10 (There was no response.)
11 Senator Jones.
12 (There was no response.)
13 Senator Kruger.
14 (There was no response.)
15 Senator Kuhl.
16 SENATOR KUHL: Present.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Larkin.
20 SENATOR LARKIN: Here.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Leibell.
3984
1 SENATOR LEIBELL: Here.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Levy.
5 SENATOR LEVY: Present.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Maltese.
9 SENATOR MALTESE: Present.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator
11 Marcellino.
12 (There was no response.)
13 Senator Marchi.
14 SENATOR MARCHI: Here.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Markowitz.
17 (There was no response.)
18 Senator Maziarz.
19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Here.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
21 (There was no response.)
22 Senator Marcellino.
23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Here.
3985
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Montgomery.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Nanula.
5 (There was no response.)
6 Senator Nozzolio.
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Present.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
9 (There was no response.)
10 Senator Oppenheimer.
11 (There was no response.)
12 Senator Padavan.
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Here.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Paterson.
15 (Affirmative indication.)
16 Senator Present.
17 SENATOR PRESENT: Here.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
19 SENATOR RATH: Here.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
21 SENATOR SALAND: Here.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago.
23 (There was no response.)
3986
1 Senator Sears.
2 (There was no response.)
3 Senator Seward.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Skelos.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Here.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
8 (There was no response.)
9 Senator Solomon.
10 (There was no response.)
11 Senator Spano.
12 SENATOR SPANO: Present.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Stachowski.
15 (There was no response.)
16 Senator Stafford.
17 (There was no response.)
18 Senator Trunzo.
19 SENATOR TRUNZO: Here.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Paterson, there are 31 members at that point
22 that are present. The quorum is present.
23 Continue on the confirmation.
3987
1 Senator Levy, you had the floor.
2 SENATOR LEVY: Thank you very
3 much, Mr. President.
4 I was saying -- at the time that
5 Senator Paterson asked for the quorum call, I
6 was talking really about the job that Peter
7 Kalikow did to ease the merger of the Transit
8 Authority Police Department into the New York
9 City Police Department, and I know that he is
10 continuing to provide hands-on oversight to
11 ensure on a continuing basis that the effort,
12 the successful effort to combat violent and
13 other crime in our subways and in our buses
14 within the jurisdiction of the Transit Authority
15 continues at the level of success that we have
16 had in the past five years.
17 Peter Kalikow's hallmark and his
18 tradition is one of being able to get people to
19 work together and, as I said at the meeting of
20 the Finance Committee, he reminds me so much -
21 and I was an admirer of the job that was done by
22 Dick Ravitch as the chair of the MTA and many,
23 many of the qualities that Dick had that moved
3988
1 that authority forward to really a high
2 watermark of success that it had during Dick's
3 tenure certainly have been demonstrated by Peter
4 Kalikow.
5 Let me say, Mr. President, that
6 we all know Peter Kalikow to be a successful
7 business person. We are cognizant of the
8 outstanding job that he did as the publisher of
9 the New York Post, and I know that he will do a
10 fine job as a member of the Port Authority,
11 because there's a common thread between serving
12 on the Port Authority, being involved and being
13 a leader in transportation with the MTA and
14 transportation on the regional New York, New
15 York State, New York City and New Jersey bases
16 that is the jurisdiction of the Port Authority.
17 The Governor is to be commended
18 for this outstanding appointment, and it's my
19 privilege, Mr. President, to move the
20 confirmation of this nomination.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 question is on the confirmation.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
3989
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Gold.
3 SENATOR GOLD: I just want to -
4 I'm sorry. I was in a conference and I just
5 wanted to get up to speed. We are now on the
6 confirmation of Mr. Kalikow, is that it?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That's
8 correct, Senator Gold.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. I would
10 like to speak on this.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
12 recognizes Senator Gold on the confirmation.
13 SENATOR GOLD: In discussing the
14 confirmation, I want to, first of all, address
15 my comments directly to Mr. Kalikow.
16 Mr. Kalikow, you, fortunately or
17 unfortunately, have spent most of your life in
18 the business world where time is money, where
19 decisions are always important, where time is
20 always important and unfortunately for you
21 today, there's a process under way which, by the
22 way, will end, I think, with your successful
23 confirmation because you deserve that, but you
3990
1 are unfortunately in the midst of something
2 which is a little different than the business
3 world.
4 So I would say to you that, for
5 the time being, if you just sit back and relax.
6 There's no doubt in my mind based upon your
7 resume and your work in the community that you
8 will be confirmed, but it just might not happen
9 in a minute or maybe a few minutes or maybe an
10 hour.
11 Peter S. Kalikow is an individual
12 who really has lived a -- not only an interest
13 ing life, but a life which is very admirable in
14 many, many ways. Lives in Manhattan, lost to
15 Queens -- you should be in Queens, good place -
16 and we're being asked today to confirm him to
17 the Port of New York and New Jersey Authority, a
18 job, by the way, which the Governor has given
19 code POT-1177. His work number, I won't give
20 you, because I assume if he goes to the Port
21 Authority, there might be a different number for
22 some of that time.
23 The gentleman whose place he is
3991
1 taking is a former state Senator, someone I had
2 the honor of serving with, Basil Paterson. I
3 think some of you may remember him, a very, very
4 distinguished colleague, and I can understand
5 that the Governor would want to put in people
6 who the Governor chose but, in all candor and
7 with no disrespect to Mr. Kalikow at all, I
8 think Basil Paterson was doing a terrific job.
9 I think he did a terrific job while he was a
10 member of the Senate. I'm trying to remember
11 exactly which seat he sat in, but I don't
12 remember.
13 This appointment, I guess, comes
14 under Section 6405 of the Unconsolidated Laws
15 which is, of course, very important. I don't
16 know whether the record has really set out the
17 history of Mr. Kalikow. I know that Senator
18 Levy has said some very nice things from the
19 heart, and I know Senator Levy knows Mr. Kalikow
20 and those remarks are very important, but I want
21 to make sure we don't miss anything.
22 Peter S. Kalikow has been the
23 president of H. -- God bless you -- H.J. Kalikow
3992
1 & Co., Inc., one of New York City's leading real
2 estate companies for 21 years. Currently a
3 board member of the Metropolitan Transit
4 Authority, Mr. Kalikow is a former owner and
5 publisher of the New York Post -- but I may vote
6 for you anyway -- a major award winning daily
7 city pap... I didn't write this. This is what
8 is in the resume ...which he purchased in 1988
9 and sold recently.
10 Mr. Kalikow began his career in
11 real estate in 1967 and became president of H.J.
12 Kalikow Co., Inc., in 1977 -- I guess that's
13 about six years later -- upon the election of
14 his father, Harold J. Kalikow, as chairman of
15 the board. I assume that's chairman of the
16 board of H.J. Kalikow & Co.
17 Following his father's passing in
18 1982, Mr. Kalikow assumed the responsibility of
19 all the Kalikow holdings, and I might put in at
20 this point that that's a very huge responsi
21 bility, and certainly very time consuming and
22 educational and admirable.
23 Peter Kalikow -- and I guess
3993
1 that's the same as Peter S. Kalikow, which is
2 what they said in the first paragraph -- is the
3 third generation to preside over the family's
4 real estate companies. For over 75 years, the
5 company has been widely recognized for its
6 precision, organization and professional
7 operation. Its products are buildings which are
8 widely architecturally dramatic in appearance,
9 yet efficient in operation and function.
10 Mr. Kalikow is an active partici
11 pant in every major real estate association and
12 has served as director of many organizations.
13 He is also extremely active in civic affairs and
14 numerous religious and philanthropic efforts.
15 Many awards attest to his efforts, generosity
16 and participation in these causes, and I'm going
17 to get to that in a while and that is not an
18 overstatement. I mean, this man and his family
19 have done some wonderful, wonderful things of a
20 philanthropic nature, and I'm going to discuss
21 those. What a lot of people have the
22 wherewithal and the capacity to do and they
23 don't do, Peter Kalikow does, and I'm proud of
3994
1 him for that.
2 In his industry, Mr. Kalikow was
3 co-chair of the Board of Governors of the
4 association -- Associated Builders and owners of
5 the Greater New York which gave him the Young
6 Master Builder Award in 1980 and the Golden
7 Circle Award in 1981. In addition, Mr. Kalikow
8 serves as director of the Rent Stabilization
9 Association, the Real Estate Board of New York
10 and the Realty Foundation of New York.
11 In his philanthropic efforts,
12 Peter Kalikow is a governor of the New York
13 Hospital-Cornell Medical Center, as well as the
14 chairman of its pediatric development com
15 mittee. His efforts and personal contributions
16 established the new out-patient pediatric and
17 ambulatory care center named in honor of his
18 parents, Harold and Juliet Kalikow, at the New
19 York Hospital-Cornell Medical Center.
20 Mr. Kalikow is a member of the
21 Society of Fellows for the National Jewish
22 Hospital Research Center in Denver. He
23 continues to serve on the board of directors of
3995
1 the Jewish National Fund and is also on the New
2 York Holocaust Memorial Commission.
3 And, by the way, Mr. Kalikow, as
4 you look down on this chamber, you should take
5 some pride in the fact that about a year ago, we
6 passed my law which now mandates that the
7 holocaust and the evils of genocide and slavery
8 are now taught it every school in this state,
9 and New York is -- I think became the fifth or
10 sixth in line nationally to do that.
11 I have to divert for a minute. I
12 know that you were drawn into a business that
13 your family had been in. I don't know whether
14 many people know this story, but since we have
15 time, I know you're going to want to hear it.
16 I have a daughter -- the Lord
17 only gave me one, but I adore her, and she has
18 been in the press business, so to speak,
19 free-lance writer for a music magazine and, lo
20 and behold, about some time last year she
21 decided to get involved in politics. Where that
22 came from, I don't know, but she has been the
23 press person for a California assemblyman by the
3996
1 name of Richard Katz -- no, no, she's smarter
2 than that -- and apparently Richard Katz was the
3 sponsor of the California law and, in a
4 conversation with my daughter, she says, "Dad, I
5 don't -- you paid for my education. You helped
6 along the way. I ought to give you something in
7 return", and she gave me this wonderful idea of
8 Richard Katz that we ought to be teaching the
9 holocaust in the schools. So we brought it to
10 New York, and with the help of everyone in this
11 chamber and Governor Pataki who was a Senator
12 and, as everybody knows, a lot of my colleagues
13 on the other side of the aisle do not like to
14 vote for mandates, particularly in the
15 educational field, and with my great gratitude
16 and certainly to the honor and respect of my
17 colleagues, they felt that this was one area
18 where a mandate made sense. And so the law that
19 Assemblyman Katz passed in California, and which
20 had previously been voted on in the state of
21 Illinois, was voted on here and we joined New
22 Jersey and Florida to make it the law. I
23 thought you would be interested because of your
3997
1 work with the Holocaust Memorial Commission.
2 Mr. Kalikow is also a founder of
3 the Long Island Jewish Hillside Medical Center
4 and the Albert Einstein College of Medicine of
5 Yeshiva University.
6 In 1976, Mr. Kalikow and his
7 father were honored as Man of the Year by the
8 UJA Federation as a tribute to their hard work.
9 In 1979, they were given the Norman Tishman
10 Award by the Anti-defamation League of the B'nai
11 B'rith, a very extraordinary organization which,
12 by the way, helps everybody. I think the work
13 of ADL in contributing to our society is just
14 very important and very extraordinary. Anti
15 Semitism and hatred are not only in other parts
16 of the world, unfortunately; we do have those
17 problems here, and I'm told, Mr. Kalikow, that I
18 ought to read faster. At any rate, I could go
19 on and on, and I'm told it's now unnecessary.
20 So with that, Mr. President, I
21 want to tell you that I do admire Mr. Kalikow.
22 I appreciate your patience, sir. You are -
23 running a business as you do, you are certainly
3998
1 smart enough to know what is going on here, and
2 I appreciate your patience.
3 With that, Mr. President, I would
4 just suggest it's a good nomination. I'm going
5 to vote for it.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 question is on the confirmation of Peter S.
8 Kalikow of New York City as a member of the Port
9 Authority of New York and New Jersey. All those
10 in favor signify by saying aye.
11 (Response of "Aye".)
12 Opposed, nay.
13 (There was no response.)
14 The nominee is confirmed.
15 Peter Kalikow who is with us
16 today, congratulations. Good luck in your
17 appointment, sir.
18 (Applause.)
19 The Secretary will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
21 from the Committee on Finance, reports the
22 following nomination: Peter W. Delaney of
23 Peekskill, Commissioner of General Services.
3999
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
2 recognizes Senator Stafford.
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr.
4 President.
5 It is a pleasure to yield to
6 Senator Leibell for this very fine nomination.
7 Senator Leibell.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
9 recognizes Senator Leibell.
10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 I'm very pleased to once again
13 have the opportunity to rise on a nomination
14 that has been submitted to us by our governor,
15 George Pataki, for our consideration and
16 support.
17 Over the last few weeks, we have
18 seen the Governor submit to us, and as was
19 exhibited here already today, so many well
20 qualified men and women who are coming forward
21 and giving of themselves to join us in the
22 public sector.
23 I'm very pleased today to have
4000
1 the opportunity to speak on behalf of Peter
2 Delaney who's been nominated by the Governor to
3 what is certainly one of our most critical and
4 important positions, that of Commissioner of our
5 Office of General Services.
6 This is a particularly critical
7 and important position as we, like the rest of
8 the nation, talk about -- we talk about stream
9 lining and changing government.
10 We are talking about a department
11 that has, I think it's fair to say, absolutely
12 huge responsibilities and handles a great deal
13 of the public's money.
14 We're very fortunate that, with
15 Peter Delaney, we have someone who is before us
16 today who comes with a combination, the sort of
17 combination that the Governor has been seeking
18 in some many of these nominations, a combination
19 of both public and private experience.
20 Although I have had the good
21 fortune to know Peter Delaney for many years, I,
22 quite frankly, until I had the chance to chat
23 with him and see his resume, was not aware of
4001
1 exactly how involved he has been.
2 He has been involved, of course,
3 with many civic and community groups which iden
4 tifies him as someone who is more than a private
5 and public servant, but someone who cares
6 greatly in all aspects about the communities in
7 which he has lived.
8 But in the private sector he has
9 been a successful businessman, someone who is
10 intimately involved with the role of an
11 entrepreneur and, in particular, such businesses
12 as real estate and marketing. Beyond that, he
13 also brings to us a very, very extensive
14 resume. In fact, it would be hard to think of
15 anyone who could have a resume more suited for a
16 particular position than this nominee does.
17 He has served as administrator of
18 the Westchester County Department of General
19 Services where he has been responsible for
20 directing and managing all the divisions and
21 functions of that very large department,
22 including their bureau of purchase and supplies,
23 information systems, electronic data processing,
4002
1 telecommunications, building management,
2 leasing, automotive services and fleet
3 management and radio communication; responsible
4 for directing there a staff of approximately 300
5 people with an annual operating budget in excess
6 of $50 million and a capital budget of $100
7 million. That's exactly the sort of
8 qualifications we're looking for for this
9 position.
10 He has served as general manager
11 of the Westchester County Center. For those of
12 my colleagues who are from Westchester County,
13 you would, of course, be aware of this
14 facility. It is a large facility that dominates
15 the public life of our county. There he's been
16 responsible for the managment and administration
17 of that facility.
18 He has served also as -- in the
19 Westchester County Executive's Office as
20 assistant to the County Executive and also in
21 the Westchester County Office of Economic
22 Development where he was an economic development
23 specialist and program administrator.
4003
1 We are very fortunate to have
2 Peter Delaney here before us today. As I noted,
3 I have had the good fortune to know him and to
4 be someone who has admired his work throughout
5 his years in public and private service -- both
6 sectors.
7 Mr. President, I have great honor
8 to move today the nomination of Peter Delaney.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
10 recognizes Senator Farley on the nomination.
11 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
12 President.
13 I'm pleased to get up to second
14 the nomination of Peter Delaney for Commissioner
15 of OGS and to congratulate the Governor on this
16 appointment.
17 You know, this is one of the more
18 difficult jobs in state government, one that
19 affects my district particularly, and Senator
20 Hoblock's. Peter Delaney is eminently
21 qualified. I think we can all attest to that,
22 and we're very fortunate to have somebody that
23 is willing to serve New York State with his
4004
1 background.
2 I'm pleased to second this
3 nomination and to wish him well, and we've had
4 some great commissioners in this office and I'm
5 confident that Peter Delaney will be one of the
6 best that's ever served as Commissioner of OGS.
7 I wish you well, Peter.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
9 recognizes Senator Nozzolio on the nomination.
10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 I rise as my colleagues have to
13 support this nomination and echo the comments
14 particularly of Senator Leibell. I believe this
15 is an excellent appointment and that I remain
16 continually impressed with Mr. Delaney's
17 interest and activity in making New York State
18 government more cost-effective and more
19 efficient.
20 I'd share with my colleagues
21 already his approach to looking at the way the
22 state has been doing its business and saying,
23 yes, as every family has had to find more
4005
1 economies of scale, have had to show how each
2 expenditure needs to be stretched. This
3 gentleman -- this appointment in Mr. Delaney is
4 an excellent example of how we can do things
5 better.
6 I was extremely pleased with,
7 before he even got on the job, his attention to
8 looking at ways that we could move some of state
9 services that had heretofore been sacrosanct as
10 only provided by the state to look to the
11 potentials to privatize some of those entities
12 to save the taxpayers money and put more to work
13 in the private sector than in the public sector.
14 I applaud the Governor's
15 nomination. I think it's an excellent,
16 excellent opportunity that we will see great
17 things from this commissioner and I applaud his
18 appointment and urge his confirmation.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
20 recognizes Senator Leichter on the confirmation.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
22 we've had a tradition in the Office of General
23 Service of having highly qualified commissioners
4006
1 who run the agency in a very non-partisan way,
2 and I'm thinking of John Egan, one of the
3 superior public officials that I've ever met,
4 also John Hudacs, most recently General Adams.
5 I've had an opportunity to look into some of the
6 background into Mr. Delaney. I've had a chance
7 to ask him some questions and, frankly, I have
8 have confidence that Mr. Delaney, in background
9 and outlook and approach in what he has done so
10 far, is going to carry on that non-partisan
11 tradition of service to all the people of the
12 state of New York, to run what is essentially a
13 housekeeping operation rather than to run what
14 is a political operation.
15 Mr. Delaney, as you've heard, was
16 the Commissioner of General Services for the
17 county of Westchester. There was quite a bit of
18 controversy about his functioning in that -- in
19 that position. There were a number of things
20 that came up which gave a lot of concern to
21 county legislators of both parties, and he was
22 severely criticized for some of the things that
23 he did.
4007
1 One of them, which has particular
2 relevance to us, was the leasing of some
3 property in a building that had been abandoned,
4 entering into a lease in such a way -- a
5 structure so that at least initially he avoided
6 the approval of the county legislature which,
7 apparently, was inclined not to give that
8 approval. So instead of making the lease for
9 the full term that was really intended, he made
10 it a five-year term with three five-year
11 renewals and then moved a number of state -
12 county employees into that facility. There's a
13 dispute as to whether that saved money for the
14 county or increased the cost to the county. A
15 number of people think that it increased the
16 cost to the county, but I think it has special
17 relevance because we now see that same situation
18 developing, not a perfect parallel, but there
19 are certainly some similarities in the
20 acquisition of the buildings of IBM, moving
21 state employees down into those facilities.
22 As you know, questions have been
23 raised about whether there are environmental
4008
1 hazards. Questions have been raised about
2 whether this is cost-effective. That, to me,
3 indicates a somewhat insensitivity to what I
4 would like to think would be the emphasis on the
5 public benefit rather than maybe some political
6 advantage.
7 Also questions were raised about
8 the very large increase in the space that was
9 leased and purchased by Westchester County while
10 Mr. Delaney was a Commissioner of General
11 Services.
12 Now, let me say in fairness to
13 him and his answer to me when I raised that
14 issue with him was that there had been a
15 significant increase in the Westchester County
16 work force in the early '80s, and that when he
17 came in, there was just a strong need for
18 additional space to accommodate workers that had
19 already been hired, but the figures show that in
20 1985, the county owned or leased 437,000 square
21 feet of office space for 4,809 workers. By
22 1994, it had 978,000 square feet, more than
23 doubled, while the work force had grown by only
4009
1 a couple of hundred workers during that period.
2 What I'm most concerned about,
3 though, is that Mr. Delaney, while he was
4 Commissioner of General Services -- or I should
5 specify after having been Commissioner of
6 General Services and having taken a leave of
7 absence to run the campaign of the county
8 executive, was involved in soliciting or at
9 least in speaking to people about campaign
10 contributions, people who had leased office
11 space to the county of Westchester and had
12 negotiated that with Mr. Delaney.
13 A New York Times article referred
14 to the fact that he has been criticized for
15 awarding lucrative leases to Republican
16 contributors. His answer to the question when I
17 asked him whether that was so certainly did not
18 satisfy me that it was not.
19 I don't think it's efficient for
20 somebody who is a commissioner, who is in a
21 position to purchase goods or enter in the
22 leases or buy property to say, "Yeah, I
23 solicited but at that time I had taken a leave
4010
1 of absence." I just don't think that's
2 satisfactory.
3 I asked him whether he would
4 abstain from fund-raising as the Commissioner of
5 General Services of the state of New York. He
6 refused to say that he would do so; made it very
7 clear that he felt that he could still go out
8 and raise money. I just think that's a terrible
9 mistake.
10 This office with its potential
11 for pressuring people or making people feel that
12 they need to contribute has to be run in a
13 completely non-partisan manner, and just as I
14 was very concerned with Mr. Gargano's refusal
15 when I asked him the same question considering
16 his position in the Urban Development
17 Corporation, that he would issue fund-raising,
18 neither would Mr. Delaney and, from my mind,
19 that affects his fitness for this particular
20 office.
21 I will also point out that we've
22 seen a number of people hired by the Office of
23 General Services who seem to have been hired
4011
1 primarily for their political background, and I
2 must tell you that my impression is of this
3 administration, when you take a look at their
4 hiring, when you take a look at who's been put
5 in particular positions, that it is highly
6 partisan, highly political, highly geared to the
7 potential of fund-raising for campaigns,
8 certainly not, I think, what we would expect
9 and, frankly, what I -- I know the people of the
10 state of New York would like to see that -- a
11 government that is run solely with the interests
12 of the people in mind and not for political
13 advantage or gain.
14 So I'm going to oppose this
15 nomination. I just don't feel comfortable that
16 Mr. Delaney has made those commitments to how
17 he's going to run this operation that can give
18 us the sense of security and comfort that he
19 will carry on the tradition of OGS that I
20 referred to.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
22 recognizes Senator Larkin on the confirmation.
23 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, I
4012
1 rise to support the nomination of Peter Delaney
2 as the Commissioner of the Office of General
3 Services.
4 I take issue with some of my
5 colleagues that would like to stand here today
6 and start to nitpick and find all of the things
7 that, for some reason or other, they don't want
8 to support the nomination. You know, it's a
9 tough job.
10 I remember when we stood here and
11 nominated General Bob Adams, some people on the
12 other side of the aisle even said, "What does he
13 know about the Office of General Services; he's
14 only been a General." What does Peter Delaney
15 know about being in the Office of General
16 Services? He's been there. It's a tough job.
17 That's why the Governor picked a tough man to do
18 it. You know, they make the most of a little
19 insignificant -- somebody took a leave of
20 absence. I remember issues right here in this
21 house and in the other house and on the second
22 floor, Franz, where they took leaves of
23 absence. I never saw headlines about what was
4013
1 wrong or what was right.
2 We've got an individual who's
3 been given a task to take this operation and
4 make it the best at the least cost to the
5 taxpayers of this state, and he's going to do
6 it.
7 We saw earlier here a member of
8 the opposition put a stalling tactic so we could
9 get members in this chamber so they could harass
10 the nominee, and that's exactly what it's going
11 to be.
12 But time and time again, you
13 scratch and scratch. You don't look at the
14 qualifications. How bad can we make him look in
15 the eyes of somebody in the media that's
16 upstairs; never taken the opportunity to look at
17 the accomplishments.
18 You know, I think it's a cheap
19 shot that, for 20 years, you people have had the
20 second floor and had the grandiose opportunities
21 of hiring and firing who you wanted, and now we
22 have a new administration that's hiring people
23 qualified, totally committed and are willing to
4014
1 tackle the tough jobs. You're not interested in
2 that. That doesn't make headlines. What makes
3 headlines is when you can try to get up and chop
4 them down.
5 I want to tell you, I thank Peter
6 for accepting the challenge and I look forward
7 to working with him and the people of the state
8 of New York will be a lot better off with
9 Commissioner Delaney.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
11 recognizes Senator Hoblock on the confirmation.
12 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Thank you, Mr.
13 President.
14 I rise as well in support of this
15 nomination. As has been said by so many, this
16 is not an easy job, Commissioner of the Office
17 of General Services. It's a big responsibility.
18 I have not known Mr. Delaney that
19 long, but in the few weeks that we have been
20 dealing with one another, I found him to be not
21 only receptive, but qualified in many of the
22 areas which he's going to administer over the
23 next three and a half years.
4015
1 I look forward to -- because we
2 have a number of issues that concern my district
3 as well as other districts throughout this state
4 and, although Mr. Delaney and I may have some
5 disagreement, I think that his professionalism
6 and attitude in coming to the table and trying
7 to work through many of these issues are going
8 to benefit all of us, and I look forward to
9 continuing that dialogue and making sure that we
10 resolve these issues for the best interests of
11 all.
12 So I support this nomination. I
13 applaud the Governor on his choice and I look
14 forward to working with the commissioner to
15 ensure that we do what is best.
16 Thank you, Commissioner.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
18 recognizes Senator Dollinger on the nomination.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
20 Mr. President.
21 I didn't have an opportunity to
22 be at the Finance Committee. I talked with a
23 couple of my colleagues that have, and I rise
4016
1 because I'm going to vote against Mr. Delaney,
2 and I want to respond to Senator Larkin and
3 perhaps explain why.
4 I won't deny that Mr. Delaney has
5 been in the chair of running the Office of
6 General Services in one of our largest counties
7 in this state. What bothers me is not whether
8 he's done it, but the question of what judgment
9 he's exercised with that, and only one issue
10 concerns me, only one, and I've asked Senator
11 Leichter who was at the Finance Committee,
12 apparently asked Mr. Delaney about the issue of
13 whether or not when he was doing the property
14 leasing, the five-year -- the three five-year
15 leases to avoid the legislative approval, what
16 Mr. Delaney's response was.
17 The New York Times article that
18 I'm referring to says, "Mr. Delaney acknowledged
19 that he had tried to avoid a vote by the
20 Legislature on the leases", and that's what
21 bothers me most, is that we're now about to
22 appoint someone to OGS who proudly acknowledges,
23 "Quite frankly, we were trying to get things
4017
1 done", he said. "We knew we needed 12 votes to
2 pass the leases. Quite frankly, we weren't sure
3 we would have it."
4 Under those circumstances, what
5 he did is he basically went around the back of
6 the Legislature and I don't know how we in the
7 Senate could have someone who's going to work
8 for OGS who has in his -- exercise of his
9 judgment decided that he would go around the
10 Legislature. I would note at least again based
11 upon the New York Times article and based on
12 what I've heard from the Finance Committee, that
13 both Republicans and Democrats in Westchester
14 County criticized him for doing that, and it
15 seems to me that one of the issues we can do is
16 look at the judgment that people exercise in
17 positions.
18 They may have qualifications.
19 They may have dealt with the numbers. They may
20 have dealt with the information, but the
21 question is, what kind of judgment did they
22 exhibit? And I don't think it's a cheap shot to
23 question someone who's going to be in charge of
4018
1 OGS having exercised judgment on a prior
2 occasion when the consequence of that judgment
3 was to avoid the elected representatives who are
4 charged with the responsibility for determining
5 where the people's money is spent.
6 I'm troubled by the fact that
7 someone would have appeared to crow about the
8 fact that he found a way around legislative
9 approval. That bothers me. I think that's, in
10 my judgment, an exercise of judgment on the part
11 of Mr. Delaney that is -- raises a question
12 about his fitness for this office, and I don't
13 believe that we, who believe that this
14 Legislature should have the final say on that
15 spending, should confirm someone who has already
16 acknowledged that he was able to get around the
17 Westchester County Legislature when it came to
18 leasing properties.
19 I would only point out with
20 respect to Senator Leichter's comment that the
21 newspaper article that I'm relying on which does
22 talk about the leasing of those buildings talks
23 about a pattern that seems to have some
4019
1 familiarity to the IBM deal that we discussed
2 earlier in this session, and that's the issue of
3 whether or not the deal that was made for IBM is
4 available to everybody or whether there was some
5 kind of cozy relationship between IBM, Mr.
6 Delaney and this administration. I won't
7 comment about that. I don't know about that,
8 but certainly what I can read in this newspaper
9 article suggests that what happened with respect
10 to the leasing in Westchester County bears some
11 resemblance to what's happened to IBM.
12 However, while that raises a
13 question in my mind, from my point of view, the
14 exercise of judgment in avoiding legislative
15 approval for the spending of taxpayer funds is a
16 reason to vote against Mr. Delaney, and I will
17 do so on that basis.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
19 recognizes Senator Libous on the confirmation.
20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
21 President.
22 I, too, rise to support the
23 confirmation of Peter Delaney, and the last few
4020
1 confimations, I guess, since January 1st in this
2 chamber, I find quite interesting. It's kind of
3 like a political campaign.
4 We refer to newspaper articles
5 and we try to reinterpret them as we often do in
6 mail literature or maybe in a television ad, but
7 I have to say in all due respect -- and I do
8 have respect for both Senator Leichter and
9 Senator Dollinger, Mr. President -- that if the
10 rules have changed here after 20 years, I didn't
11 get a copy of a new rule book, and I would like
12 one.
13 You know, these are political
14 appointments, there's no question about it, but
15 in the case of Peter Delaney, you are looking at
16 an individual who is qualified, an individual
17 that's going to take the Office of General
18 Services and bring it into the 21st Century with
19 technology.
20 You know, the word was mentioned
21 as "care taker" and, in my opinion, that's what
22 OGS has been, under the former administrators,
23 nothing but a care taker agency, one where their
4021
1 computer operations are something that, I think
2 we would all be embarrassed to look at because
3 in some cases it doesn't exist.
4 When we took at the technology -
5 and, you know, Senator Dollinger, you mentioned
6 in the article, Mr. President, that the commis
7 sioner made a decision without going through
8 elected officials. In the first six years I
9 served here, every commissioner that served
10 never called me before they made a decision, so
11 they avoided the elected officials in this
12 chamber, at least on this side of the aisle for
13 the last six years.
14 We have an opportunity to take
15 the Office of General Services and bring it into
16 the 21st Century with an individual who is
17 qualified, who's intelligent. He's articulate,
18 and he brings the management style that this
19 state needs, a management style that is going to
20 turn this state around, and it's something that
21 we have been lacking and it's something that's
22 quite obvious as we look through the various
23 departments in this state.
4022
1 Mr. President, I think that after
2 the hearings that took place last week, I know
3 that I spoke to both Republicans and Democrats,
4 both sides of the aisle, some who at one point
5 were very concerned, very upset with Mr.
6 Delaney. Once that hearing was over, I heard
7 conversations from both sides of the aisle that
8 this guy knows what he's doing. This guy's got
9 a handle on what's going on and this guy is
10 going to take this state and the office of OGS
11 into the 21st Century.
12 Mr. President, it is without
13 hesitation and with great pride I second the
14 nomination.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Velella.
17 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President,
18 I can understand how some of my colleagues,
19 looking from the West Side of Manhattan up
20 toward Westchester County or looking from
21 Rochester down toward Westchester County, might
22 misunderstand what was going on in Westchester
23 County.
4023
1 Let me explain to you that, while
2 you were looking down from Rochester and trying
3 to evaluate what happened while you weren't in
4 Westchester County and while you were trying to
5 evaluate what was happening in Senate Finance
6 while you were in your committee -- in your
7 party caucus, you got a wrong message from
8 Senator Leichter.
9 The response was not "I went
10 around the Legislature." The response was "On
11 three different renewals, the Legislature had to
12 vote and pass on the propriety of that lease."
13 So there was a vote and it did have to be
14 submitted to the Legislature and that's what the
15 candidate had indicated, but that's not
16 important because it seems to me that every time
17 somebody comes up for confirmation who may have
18 played a part in somebody's campaign that
19 happened to have been a Republican, the rhetoric
20 on that side of the aisle goes up and we start
21 talking about campaign contributions, and we
22 start talking about how much money they raised
23 for a candidate.
4024
1 You know, Mario Cuomo was no
2 slouch when it came to that. His commissioners
3 did a pretty good job and I commend them, as
4 long as they didn't break the law. If you want
5 to change that process, put in a bill and change
6 the law. If you want to go to public financing,
7 fine. Put the bill in, let it be decided by
8 both houses and if it flies, great, but let's
9 not try to give people who have worked hard, who
10 have earned the great reputation in government,
11 bad names because they followed the law and
12 they're doing something that is perfectly legal,
13 perfectly ethical and perfectly proper. If
14 somebody was in a position and they made a
15 contribution, fine.
16 Mr. Delaney went through a very
17 meticulous explanation of how he left office,
18 took a leave of absence; worked as a campaign
19 manager. There are people in this house, and
20 there is evidence of members in this house who
21 haven't gone through those very careful
22 considerations. There have been some very
23 serious problems with members in-house that I
4025
1 need not mention about people working on
2 campaigns while they're still on public
3 payrolls, not Mr. Delaney. He didn't go on the
4 public payroll. He got off the public payroll.
5 He did take a position as a campaign manager and
6 he did keep the law and he did not break or
7 violate any ethical standards. All of this
8 innuendo is something that is not worthy of the
9 Senate. These are cheap shots. They don't
10 deserve to be made in this chamber.
11 I vote in the affirmative.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
13 recognizes Senator Wright on the nomination.
14 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I
15 rise to second the nomination also of Mr.
16 Delaney, and I reflect that I might, in fact,
17 have a county government bias, having also spent
18 my time managing county government, but I think
19 Commissioner Delaney is going to bring us from
20 that county experience some of the management
21 capabilities that our state agencies so
22 desperately need. He's going to bring us a work
23 ethic that's inherent and necessary to changing
4026
1 the directions of these agencies.
2 He's going to, I believe,
3 epitomize what we've been talking about since
4 January, and that's a smaller, more efficient,
5 more effective state government.
6 We're already seeing it. He
7 takes a very hands-on approach to how he's
8 managing that agency. He's starting to
9 consolidate. He's unified and consolidated
10 administrative positions, taking two and three
11 units and putting them together under one
12 individual. I think those are all steps in the
13 right direction in terms of changing how we're
14 going to govern our state agencies, how they're
15 going to service us in the direction that we're
16 going to take.
17 He's also demonstrated he's
18 willing to make the hard decisions, the tough
19 choices that we all have to face. I think
20 perhaps some of those -- those of us who are
21 serving in this Legislature to learn from Mr.
22 Delaney's choice in making those hard decisions
23 in moving ahead.
4027
1 I think it sets an example for
2 what we expect out of this administration. He
3 brings us credentials to this job. I think the
4 Governor should be recognized in Mr. Delaney for
5 moving ahead in OGS.
6 As a result, I vote aye.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
8 recognizes Senator Gold on the confirmation.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you.
10 Mr. President, I just want to
11 clear one situation. Senator Velella is a real
12 pro and I don't know whether he's teaching
13 Skelos or Skelos is teaching him; it doesn't
14 matter but it's interesting, whenever there's an
15 issue raised on an individual with specificity
16 dealing with their conduct in another office and
17 the issue of what they will do in office, you
18 people yell and scream about things which have
19 nothing to do with anything and it's all
20 political, and what I think you do is you add
21 credibility to the situation.
22 We, on this side, are in the same
23 position that you have been in the past.
4028
1 There's a Governor who we did not vote for, but
2 who is the Governor, and entitled to that
3 respect, and we have voted time and time again,
4 to confirm people who are ardent Republican
5 operatives, to positions, and they had a right
6 to be ardent Republican operatives, and if
7 they're qualified, they're entitled to that
8 position.
9 Now, the bottom line is that in
10 those few circumstances where there have been
11 problems, the problems have not been of the
12 nature of their campaign involvement, although
13 Senator Leichter has pointed out that, in his
14 opinion, maybe we should change the law, and
15 when Senator Velella says, "Put in a bill",
16 Senator, the bills are in. You people won't put
17 them out. The macho Republicans in this house
18 have such problems with their own ego that they
19 think that if they take a Democratic bill some
20 place, it is somehow diminishing them in the
21 legislative process. I think it's an absurd
22 attitude but you people seem to get your kicks
23 that way.
4029
1 What can I tell you? We certain
2 ly have put them -- the bills in. Senator
3 Leichter has certainly put them in, but the
4 bottom line is that there are nominees today -
5 I cannot believe that Peter Kalikow has not put
6 up significant money for your party and, from my
7 point of view, that's okay. He's qualified for
8 the job, and I don't have a problem supporting
9 him.
10 There have been other people.
11 There's a Mr. Johnson today. I looked at his
12 resume and, from my point of view, I don't think
13 the man's background has been under Democrats.
14 It's been under Republicans, and I find him to
15 be very well qualified, and I have to assume
16 that in his politics, he's worked very, very
17 hard for Republicans. That just isn't the
18 issue.
19 The issues that were raised by
20 Senator Dollinger and and the issues that were
21 raised principally by Senator Leichter deal with
22 their reactions to Mr. Delaney's work in public
23 life, and whether you agree with it or not, they
4030
1 are certainly entitled and, you know, I keep
2 seeing in my own mind a Republican majority in
3 the United States Senate in Washington going
4 through these resumes if they came down from
5 Bill Clinton and these people being destroyed
6 because that's what the junior, whatever he is
7 from New York, would do and that's what some of
8 the others would do and they would say, "Wait,
9 this isn't party politics. We are now the
10 representatives of the people." But you people
11 won't do it because -- what's the expression,
12 lockstep, somebody keeps saying; you're so in
13 lockstep? So if somebody raising an issue with
14 an individual, let's stop the nonsense because
15 -- and accuse those members on our side who
16 raise those issues of playing politics. It has
17 nothing to do with politics.
18 Governor Pataki has offered us
19 some very fine nominees, and those nominees are
20 being congratulated by my side of the aisle as
21 well as your side of the aisle, but we are
22 allowed to have disagreements without this
23 gibberish about the politics, and there were
4031
1 situations on our side -- because I want to tell
2 you something, if you ever opened up the books,
3 which you have been afraid to do for years, we
4 would really find out where the millions and
5 millions of dollars of taxpayer money went down
6 the drain in your campaigns.
7 So, yes, there was a public
8 situation; we all know about it, but I'm
9 prepared to have a public debate and have you
10 open the books for the last seven years.
11 Now, let's stop that. Mr.
12 Delaney comes before us with experience, and you
13 may admire that experience and some other people
14 may question it, and that's all that this debate
15 is really about.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
17 recognizes Senator Spano to close.
18 SENATOR SPANO: Thank you, Mr.
19 President.
20 You know, when you look at Pete
21 Delaney and you try to get a phrase to describe
22 him and you talk to the people in Westchester
23 County who have worked with him and for him and
4032
1 the people he's worked for, they will tell you
2 that he's a guy who just knows how to get things
3 done.
4 And I recognize that he has taken
5 the position as Commissioner of General Services
6 for the state of New York. He's taken a $6,000
7 pay cut, by the way. We still haven't figured
8 out why he wants to do that and come up here and
9 put up with us and take this abuse and make
10 $6,000 less a year, but he's a real brass tacks
11 guy, and if you talk to the county executive of
12 Westchester County, when there came a time when
13 there may have been a problem in Westchester
14 County government, it was Pete Delaney who was
15 dispatched to handle that problem.
16 When the county's premiere
17 entertainment facility, the county center, when
18 things were lacking in terms of a reconstruction
19 of that program, it was Pete Delaney who was
20 sent there and put it together, and he has been
21 credited for his work in moving that
22 entertainment center on track as they underwent
23 some major renovations.
4033
1 To give you an idea of just to
2 what level of detail he'll go to, when they had
3 the opening night and they had Liza Minnelli
4 there, he had everything planned. He had
5 everything in place, including the -- which
6 color M & Ms that Liza Minnelli wanted in her
7 dressing room, and that tells you the level of
8 detail that he goes to. He's a guy who detests
9 the bureaucracy. He hates red tape, who feels
10 that he wants to take the Office of General
11 Services and move it forward and has appointed
12 quality managers to work as members of his team.
13 He has answered the questions
14 that were raised by Senator Leichter with
15 respect to contracts in Westchester County. He
16 answered those questions very well during the
17 Finance hearings. Those are all questions that
18 have been on the public record, have been
19 debated, not only in the county Legislature, but
20 in the newspapers as well, and when you look at
21 all of the record, both his personal record, his
22 work record as a member of a very strong family
23 with roots in Westchester County -- and I -
4034
1 Senator Leichter, while you remainuncomfort
2 able, I am very comfortable in supporting the
3 nomination of Peter Delaney as the office -
4 Commissioner of the Office of General Services,
5 say that I commend the Governor for sending
6 someone to us who understands the system; who
7 has served as a commissioner; who has put
8 together the type of innovative ways to
9 streamline county government and keep our costs
10 down as he has done in Westchester County; and
11 it's my pleasure, in addition to all of that, to
12 call him a friend.
13 Mr. President, I move the
14 nomination.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 question is on the confirmation of Peter W.
17 Delaney of Peekskill as Commissioner of General
18 Services. All those in favor signify by saying
19 aye.
20 (Response of "Aye".)
21 Opposed, nay.
22 (There was no response.)
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
4035
1 I would just explain my vote very briefly.
2 After yielding to all these fine people who have
3 said so many good things, I have to say, I just
4 want to make it very clear so there isn't any
5 question, I'm not being critical, just factual.
6 Please don't tell me that the
7 commissioners in the previous administration
8 were not involved in the political process.
9 They were and, as a matter of fact, if they
10 aren't, I suspect there's something -- something
11 wrong.
12 Now, about avoiding the
13 Legislature, Senator, this is an example of one
14 man's floor being another man's ceiling. That's
15 what an old farmer told me up in the Canadian
16 border. In other words, we look at things
17 differently.
18 You can look at it but you kept
19 it out of politics. You had the lease, it could
20 be renewed, but it didn't have to get involved
21 in politics. It was a business venture, and
22 they saved money doing it.
23 And finally, I would only say
4036
1 this, that when we can get a professional such
2 as Peter Delaney as has been stated so well by
3 Senator Spano and all, we are indeed most
4 fortunate.
5 Thank you, Mr. President.
6 SENATOR LACK: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Lack.
9 SENATOR LACK: I, too, rise to
10 explain my vote, Mr. President. Not only am I
11 happy to vote for Commissioner Delaney this
12 afternoon but, Senator Gold, I want to thank you
13 because you have taught me a political lesson
14 this afternoon, and that is that in my 17
15 sessions here, I realize, not you all but it's
16 we who have made a mistake for these 17 years,
17 and that is all the time that I was here under
18 Governors Carey and Cuomo when all these
19 appointments came through that I thought that we
20 had the responsibility when we, the Senate
21 Majority, the Republicans, put that nominee on
22 the floor to support that nominee and, indeed,
23 we did, and the Governor sent it down.
4037
1 I didn't realize 'til I learned
2 the political lesson you taught me this
3 afternoon that, what I should have been doing
4 for these 17 sessions, as you have, is I should
5 have been playing politics. I should have been
6 standing up and finding every innuendo and twist
7 that I could make with respect to somebody's
8 character and standing up and complaining about
9 it on the floor so I could show that I was in
10 the responsible Minority when there was a
11 Democratic governor.
12 I'm proud, Mr. President, to vote
13 for Commissioner Delaney and I thank Senator
14 Gold for the political lesson I learned.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Gold to explain his vote.
18 SENATOR GOLD: You couldn't leave
19 me alone. I was minding my own business.
20 Senator Lack, the political
21 lesson I'm trying to give you is that we have a
22 responsibility not to the party but to the
23 people, and I'm shocked -- shocked, Senator
4038
1 Lack, to learn from you today that you believe
2 in your recollection that Governor Cuomo was
3 sending us people for appointment with resumes
4 that had federal corruption investigations -
5 and, by the way, this is not Mr. Delaney, I'm
6 sorry -- but federal corruption investigations,
7 partners who are being indicted that they didn't
8 know about, et cetera, et cetera, and you guys
9 just close your eyes to that? Baloney, you
10 closed your eyes to that! You didn't see it,
11 and if you think that your concept of party
12 loyalty means that you have to shut your eyes to
13 questions of corruption and wrongdoing in
14 people's background in public life, then I'm
15 telling you and my political final words to you,
16 Senator Lack, you don't know what you're talking
17 about, and the truth is you wouldn't do it,
18 because I know you and you're an honest,
19 honorable man and if, in fact, those items were
20 in resumes, Senator Lack, you would have been
21 doing what you think is right.
22 And the last thing I'll say is
23 just a reminder, I've told you this before.
4039
1 When I first came to this Senate in the early
2 1600s, Nelson Rockefeller was the governor and I
3 suggested, you know, guys and gals, in the
4 United States Senate, they do confirmations.
5 They take it very seriously. We ought to
6 investigate or whatever, and you fellows and
7 gals at that time said to me, "Don't worry about
8 it. Don't worry about it", and then lo and
9 behold Hugh Carey got elected and some of you
10 came over to me and said, "You know that old
11 idea you had of real investigations? It makes
12 sense."
13 Thank you. I vote maybe.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Mendez to explain her vote.
16 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, I
17 was not planning to speak on any of the nominees
18 today because I really feel that all of them are
19 highly qualified, but I really want to mention
20 the following:
21 In the case of Mr. Delaney, after
22 intense but fair prosecutorial questions, he
23 answered all those questions dealing with ethics
4040
1 in the most truthful and honest fashion. I am
2 totally convinced that the man is highly
3 qualified for the job and, just for the record,
4 I want to state the following:
5 When asked as to whether or not
6 he had diverted -- has diverted influence of the
7 local board of county executives, he explained
8 the situation very clearly, and that was, number
9 one, originally, he made a lease for a space.
10 Eventually that lease ended up saving money for
11 the county, but what was most fascinating is
12 that at the time after the first five years of
13 the lease, it was, in fact, the board managers
14 who voted to renew it and they did so another
15 five years afterwards.
16 In fact, the papers, the local
17 papers at the time, did comment on it -- they
18 did comment on the excellent job that he had
19 done on that.
20 So that to me, that was a moot
21 question. Everything had been answered
22 properly, and I am -- I do very gladly stand up
23 here to support his nomination and to vote for
4041
1 it.
2 Thank you.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Dollinger to explain his vote.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
6 President, I just have to comment on the
7 colloquy between Senator Lack and Senator Gold
8 in explaining my vote.
9 I come to this chamber not as a
10 member of the Finance Committee. I didn't
11 participate in the interview of Mr. Delaney.
12 I'm trying to go on the best available
13 information that I can get from my colleagues,
14 and I'm disappointed that we don't have the
15 approach that Senator Gold talked about.
16 I don't know why we wouldn't have
17 a hearing not just on Mr. Delaney -- I've said
18 this before with respect to other nominees, some
19 of which I voted for, some of which I voted
20 against -- in which the issue of judgment which
21 is my particular issue in this case, where that
22 could be explored at length, where there could
23 be witnesses, such as the chairman of the
4042
1 Westchester County Legislature at the time. We
2 could quiz him on his view of Mr. Delaney's
3 actions today as to whether they were
4 appropriate then. We could find out from the
5 developers what the deal looked like. We would
6 get a lot of additional information, put a bunch
7 of people under oath; have a little fact finding
8 to find out what the truth was, then I would be
9 making a much more informed judgment.
10 However, here today exercising my
11 constitutional prerogatives, based on the
12 information available to me, I still have some
13 questions about Mr. Delaney's judgment in this
14 particular case with respect to whether or not
15 he circumvented the legislative power. That's
16 what disturbs me most. I think it ought to
17 disturb everybody in this chamber.
18 Everyone in here complains about
19 those regulators who get out of control because
20 we give them a little bit of power and then they
21 eventually go out and use the power to do
22 something we don't like. That seems to be the
23 same pattern that could be present in this
4043
1 nominee and perhaps the evidence in Westchester
2 County is that, on one prior occasion, he did
3 so. So every time you lecture me about the
4 regulators or the agencies being out of control,
5 this may be one of the ways that it starts.
6 I will be voting in the negative,
7 Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Leichter to explain his vote.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
11 I want to apologize to Senator Mendez.
12 Senator, I want to apologize to
13 you because I was sitting next to you in Finance
14 and I must have rattled the paper so hard and
15 you probably didn't hear Mr. Delaney's answer.
16 The fact is that the lease for
17 this building was never approved by the county
18 Legislature. It was entered into as a 20-year
19 lease in the guise of five years which did not
20 need approval and the -- that was in 1951 or
21 1952. The renewals do have to be approved but
22 they've never come before the county Legislature
23 because the five years aren't up.
4044
1 But for all of the reasons that I
2 stated and Senator Dollinger stated and also for
3 the reasons Senator Mendez has stated, Mr.
4 President, would you please vote me in the
5 negative.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 nominee, Peter W. Delaney, is confirmed as the
8 Commissioner of General Services.
9 We're very pleased to have
10 Commissioner Delaney and his wife Mary with us
11 here in the chamber.
12 Commissioner, good luck.
13 (Applause.)
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Secretary will read.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
17 from the Committee on Finance, reports the
18 following nomination: Robert L. King, of
19 Pittsford, Director of Regulatory and Management
20 Assistance.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
22 recognizes Senator Stafford.
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr.
4045
1 President.
2 I would just like to say again
3 today that we have before us five of the finest
4 nominees that you could have. I've been here
5 awhile. I was here before Senator Gold. I
6 assure you that I have never seen better
7 nominees than we have coming before us today,
8 Robert King who we are considering at the
9 moment, but John Johnson, I -- and Ambassador
10 Gargano and Peter Kalikow and Peter Delaney we
11 just confirmed.
12 I think the Governor is to be
13 commended. This bodes well for the state. We
14 have professionals, and on the gentleman that
15 we're considering right at this moment, he comes
16 here so well recommended. He had a fine career
17 in the Legislature. He's been a county
18 executive, that will all be explained, but he
19 has a responsibility and he intends on carrying
20 it out and making a real difference in this
21 state.
22 And with that, for a more
23 articulate delivery, I would yield to Senator
4046
1 Nozzolio.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
3 recognizes Senator Nozzolio on the confirmation.
4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
5 President, and thank you, Senator Stafford.
6 Senator, I can never improve on
7 your articulation, but I certainly am pleased to
8 stand before my colleagues and discuss the
9 appointment of the Director for Regulatory and
10 Management Assistance.
11 Certainly, I have a great deal of
12 praise for the Governor for making this appoint
13 ment. From a very personal standpoint, I think
14 that Bob King has demonstrated through his years
15 of service and government to be one of the
16 finest public servants anyone could ever hope to
17 be.
18 Ten years ago I was serving in
19 the New York State Assembly, and working with a
20 couple of my good friends and colleagues who
21 have gone on to other endeavors, then
22 Assemblyman Bill Paxon and Assemblyman Dick
23 Wesley, Bill now a Congressman and Dick now a
4047
1 member of the Appellate Division of the Supreme
2 Court, the three of us went to Rochester to
3 encourage another young aggressive type to seek
4 office and run for the New York State Assembly,
5 and that young man was Bob King.
6 We were extremely impressed then,
7 continue to be impressed with Bob's thorough
8 ness. It was a tough sell to get him to run for
9 state office, but after he decided in weighing
10 the situation that he could best throw his
11 energies into what was happening at the state
12 level and we are very pleased that he did.
13 After throwing his hat in the
14 ring and being elected to the New York State
15 Assembly, he served with great distinction and
16 honor in that body, worked very hard on a number
17 of economic and other reform issues to make
18 government work again. Bob was, I believe, more
19 than any of us in that house, one who looked to
20 channel a new direction to state government.
21 He decided in 1991 to seek the
22 office of County Executive of Monroe County.
23 That was a difficult task and Monroe was faced
4048
1 with many problems, and Bob decided to pursue
2 that position and the voters of Monroe County
3 graced him with the office of County Executive
4 of Monroe, and there Bob continued his efforts
5 to reform government at all levels.
6 He became nationally recognized
7 as a county executive who cared and who moved
8 for change, who not only talked about change but
9 was pursuing change through the revolution at
10 the local government level of making government
11 more responsive and providing a new direction
12 for the way our governments in New York were
13 headed.
14 This effort was certainly
15 recognized by a number of people statewide and
16 nationally, and one of those individuals who
17 recognized Bob's talents very early on and who
18 encouraged him to leave the county executive
19 office, which I have often said is a loss to
20 Monroe County, but nonetheless, a gain to the
21 state of New York, in the selection of Bob King
22 as director in this new capacity of regulatory
23 reform.
4049
1 Bob has already, prior to
2 confirmation, crisscrossed the state, met with
3 business leaders, met with government leaders in
4 trying to unshackle the shackles that we have
5 seen placed on government and on business and on
6 those units of state government that have
7 heretofore not been equal partners as we would
8 like them to be.
9 Bob has set a course already to
10 make business and to make government a partner
11 again with the state of New York and he is to be
12 applauded for that effort and congratulated for
13 that effort.
14 Mr. President, I could go on.
15 There are others who wish to speak on this
16 nomination, but I can say very sincerely as one
17 who has stood with Bob King in our days in the
18 crucible in the New York State Assembly,
19 generating many ideas for government reform, now
20 Bob King has a great opportunity to put many of
21 those concepts into action as he already has
22 demonstrated.
23 It is with great pride and a
4050
1 tremendous privilege to move Bob King's
2 nomination for Director for Regulatory and
3 Management Assistance.
4 Thank you, Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
6 recognizes Senator Rath on the confirmation.
7 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President and
8 my colleagues, I rise also to second the
9 nomination of Bob King as the Director of
10 Regulatory Reform in New York State. This is
11 getting to be a habit, Bob. Every week there
12 are two or three meetings where we meet and I'm
13 seconding the nomination and I'm getting very
14 used to this. I think this may be my last
15 opportunity, but it's not the last that we're
16 going to see of each other because of what you
17 do, we'll be doing, and what I will continue to
18 do with the Administrative Regulations Review
19 Commission.
20 Let me start my remarks by giving
21 you a quote of one of our more famous people
22 today, Bob King and he said, quote, "I told the
23 Governor I would measure my success by how many
4051
1 new jobs are becoming available in New York
2 State as a result of our efforts."
3 I don't think I have to explain
4 that, but let me just paraphrase it a little
5 bit. The documentation of how "constricting" -
6 that's a Bob King word -- and "intrusive",
7 another Bob King word, regulations have become
8 on the businesses of the state of New York, it
9 is legion, the information that has been
10 developed in the quick three months that Bob
11 King has been here and in office for only two
12 and a half months, maybe, his efforts to date
13 have uncovered some of the examples that we have
14 been looking for, the clear-cut messages that we
15 need to send back to business to tell them this
16 isn't reasonable. You are having intrusive and
17 constricting regulations. Tie your hands from
18 expanding your business or maintaining, indeed,
19 your business in New York State.
20 Those of you in the Finance
21 Committee heard the wonderful one -- the
22 wonderful example today about the bakery
23 regulations when Bob talked about that and what
4052
1 a simple solution came about or is in the
2 process of coming about brought to my mind the
3 fact that New York State regulatory reform
4 headed up by Bob King at the request of Governor
5 Pataki and supported by all the members of this
6 house in one form or another, is the right place
7 at the right time. It is a national agenda
8 item. It's on the agenda of every state that
9 has business interests at heart and we in New
10 York State are going to be on the cutting edge
11 of how to translate federal policy to the state
12 and back to the businesses who so much need our
13 help.
14 Let me give you a number. New
15 York State now employs 1800 people in regulatory
16 jobs, just 48, however, in the offices that help
17 citizens and businesses deal with regulators.
18 I think we have to talk about
19 that, Bob. I think that's something both you
20 and I are very interested in as well as the
21 reform of the State Administrative Procedures
22 Act, another item that is in desperate need of
23 reform.
4053
1 And again, let me give you
2 another Bob King quote. I love this one. This
3 one just came off the Rochester Times Union.
4 You may be one of the more quotable people in
5 this government, Bob. Quote -- and here's one
6 -- Senator LaValle is not here. There is some
7 other Long Island types that will appreciate
8 this one. Quote, "if you live on the south side
9 of Long Island and you own property, at the end
10 of the winter, often the sand will blow up on to
11 your porches. Well, the Department of
12 Environmental Conservation now requires that you
13 get a permit to return the sand to the beach."
14 How dumb is that? Well,
15 obviously that's pretty dumb and that's one I'm
16 going to quote over and over again, Bob, because
17 I think that's the kind of thing we're bringing
18 to light and it's the kind of relief people all
19 around New York State need. This is one that
20 the home owners will be very gratified if they
21 don't have to go down and get a permit in order
22 to sweep their porches and get those sand dunes
23 out in front of their cottage, instead of in
4054
1 front of their front door.
2 As I close my remarks, let me say
3 first of all how delighted I am that the
4 Governor has appointed you with your kind of
5 experience in the New York State Assembly, your
6 experience in western New York, because we do
7 count Monroe County as western New York, and as
8 a county executive, and because as a county
9 legislator I know how tough the regulations are
10 that counties have to deal with and you know
11 that firsthand having been a county executive,
12 and government very often acts like some
13 extraterrestrial power, not an institution that
14 exists to serve us. The bureaucracy almost
15 never deals with real life problems in a way
16 that reflect an understanding of the situation.
17 We seem to have achieved the
18 worst of both worlds, a system of regulation
19 that goes too far while it does too little.
20 Hail to our new chief of
21 Regulatory Affairs. Good luck and Godspeed on
22 what will be a wonderful adventure.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
4055
1 recognizes Senator Jones on the confirmation.
2 SENATOR JONES: I rise today for
3 two reasons: First of all, to let you know when
4 someone good comes along, even a Democrat
5 recognizes it and also to speak about Bob King.
6 Even though we come from opposite
7 sides of the aisle, you know, I can't help but
8 stand and let you know that I recognize that Bob
9 King definetly did a lot for Monroe County.
10 He identified early on that a
11 healthy business climate is healthy for a
12 community and he worked very hard at fostering
13 that and making sure that business did grow in
14 Monroe County and they were recognized as being
15 important to the community.
16 He certainly has spent a lot of
17 time talking about mandates and over-regulation
18 and fees, so I think he's the perfect person to
19 handle this kind of job at the state level and
20 bring some of the expertise and some of the
21 things he did in Monroe County so the rest of
22 the state can benefit from him.
23 I think if you hear TQM forever
4056
1 and ever in Monroe County, it will always be
2 synonymous with the name Bob King, and I also
3 have to add, Bob, just as an aside, Bob is
4 probably the only elected official who got stuck
5 with a serious deficit as happened this year in
6 government, and I will be honest and tell you it
7 was by someone on my side, even though I wasn't
8 involved, and he not only was able to pay it
9 off, he convinced the community that they were
10 dying to be taxed to help him do it.
11 So there aren't many public
12 officials, Bob, that could pull that off like
13 you did, and I give you a lot of credit for
14 that.
15 I also liked what he said today
16 about Workmen's Comp'. We all know that that's
17 one of the biggest regulations that are going to
18 have to be looked at and dealt with and Bob made
19 it very clear that he intends to include not
20 only business and government but labor as well
21 in this debate while we try to come up with a
22 system that not only helps business but also
23 helps the people that are in most need of the
4057
1 Workmen's Comp' themselves.
2 So I just want to stand today and
3 commend the Governor for choosing Bob. I agree
4 with Senator Nozzolio. It is a loss to Monroe
5 County, and I will share with you what I said
6 today at Finance. If you had any doubt about
7 the good judgment Bob has, just look at the fact
8 that he's here and not back in Monroe County
9 facing the $5 million deficit we're about to
10 send him.
11 So I just want to say good luck,
12 Bob, and I know you'll do a good job.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Dollinger on the confirmation.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
16 President, I rise in support of this nominee.
17 I guess I would add as evidence
18 of Mr. King's good judgment, he's not down here
19 on the floor not getting paid. He's instead
20 going to be paid in his position as the
21 regulatory policeman for New York State so that
22 may be further evidence of his good judgment.
23 I'll be blunt with everybody
4058
1 here. I've never voted for Bob King before.
2 Bob ran for county executive. I strongly
3 supported his opponent in the losing effort
4 against Bob King. I was on the county
5 Legislature when Bob was the county executive.
6 I did my best as I've tried at times in this
7 chamber to give everyone a little bit of agita.
8 I tried to give Bob a little bit of it as well.
9 However, through all of that, I
10 have recognized Bob's intelligence and Bob's
11 skills, and I think he brings those skills. He
12 certainly brings a knowledge of government and
13 significantly not only government generally in
14 New York State, but the relationship between
15 elected officials and the bureaucracy and the
16 importance of that. I think Bob King knows
17 that, understands it, understands how it works
18 and I think that's important.
19 I would conclude, however, one of
20 my concerns for Bob is that, in this environment
21 in which everybody is pledging to cut the
22 regulatory power of state agencies, I'm fearful
23 that we had a bill before that would give, as
4059
1 you know, the counselor to the Governor, the
2 Governor's counsel, the ability to review all
3 the regulations which would seem to cut Mr. King
4 out of the equation.
5 I hope we will have the good
6 sense to reconsider that bill and perhaps pass a
7 two-house bill that vests the entire regulatory
8 authority in a single person. That way we would
9 have a system in which one person will be
10 responsible.
11 Again, at this point I'm relying
12 on my colleague, Senator Jones, who said that
13 Mr. King was willing to be judged by how many
14 new jobs he brings to New York State. I think
15 that's a laudable goal. What I would hate to
16 have happen is have several people try to
17 control the regulatory environment, have divided
18 responsibility and if new jobs didn't appear,
19 then have Mr. King be blamed when it would
20 actually be several people rather than his
21 efforts.
22 So I think we need to give him
23 clear direction. I think this Governor has
4060
1 given him clear direction. My hope is we will
2 give him equally clear direction, that the bill
3 that we talked about for regulatory reform, we
4 will rethink and we will give him the power that
5 he needs to make these changes.
6 But don't make any doubt about
7 it. Bob King has been a good public servant
8 and, Bob, I'm now batting 500 because, though I
9 voted against you once before, I'm voting with
10 you today.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Libous on the confirmation.
13 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
14 President.
15 I don't know, after hearing
16 Senator Dollinger's comments, I may reconsider
17 my vote here, but I can't do that.
18 Mr. President, I too rise to
19 support the nomination of Bob King. I can
20 honestly say that I don't know Bob King as well
21 as maybe some of the other members of this
22 chamber, but I have had the pleasure of knowing
23 him in my time in the Senate while he served as
4061
1 an Assemblyman, but I'll tell you a story that
2 comes to mind.
3 A couple years ago a group of us
4 went to Rochester and Bob had just taken over as
5 the county executive and a friend of mine was
6 with the newspaper and we had some time to chat
7 a little bit. This friend of mine I know is
8 probably not someone who is a very strong
9 Republican, probably very much on the other side
10 of the aisle. I asked him "How is the county
11 executive doing? " And he said, "I like Bob
12 King's approach. He brings a balanced
13 approach. He's willing to listen to people and
14 he's actually moving things along so that we can
15 get things done. We've had some tough times in
16 this county."
17 I think he brings that same
18 approach to this position and, Bob, I can say
19 that, if you can help to untangle this spider
20 web of bureaucracy and regulation that has
21 hampered business for the last 20 years, then I
22 think we will honor you in another way at some
23 time down the road.
4062
1 But, Mr. President, it is
2 certainly a pleasure for me to stand before this
3 body and to second the nomination of Mr. King.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Leibell on the confirmation.
6 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
7 President, if I could just briefly comment.
8 After all these other speakers, I
9 also would like to lend my support. Probably
10 like a couple of other members in this chamber,
11 I have had the good fortune and honor to serve
12 with Bob King in the other house, in the state
13 Assembly, and I can tell you those years we
14 served there together, it was certainly for me a
15 great pleasure.
16 I know I can tell you with 100
17 degrees of certainty that Bob will bring to this
18 position all the dedication and zeal that can be
19 imagined. He was in our conference and in the
20 Assembly, a great leader. He spoke out on tough
21 issues during very difficulty times.
22 I've heard Bob speak a number of
23 times about TQM and quality management. Well, I
4063
1 think Bob will be the quality that will be
2 brought to TQM in New York State government.
3 I'm very pleased to support my
4 old friend and colleague.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Wright on the confirmation.
7 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr.
8 President.
9 I, too, rise to support the
10 nominee. If Senator Dollinger was still in the
11 room, I would assure him that, if Bob King were
12 on this floor, he'd be calling for less
13 spending, less taxes and a budget on time, and
14 it's the kind of individuals like Bob King that
15 we're missing sometimes.
16 As the sponsor of the legislation
17 that created ORMA, the Office of Regulatory
18 Management Assistance, I'm very pleased to have
19 Bob King serve as the head of that office. I
20 think he brings the necessary background and
21 experience that we're looking for to head that
22 office.
23 He understands the business
4064
1 community. He has demonstrated his ability to
2 work successfully with the business community,
3 but he has also demonstrated his understanding
4 of public trust and public responsibilities and
5 he's blended that very well in achieving the
6 balances that are necessary to successfully
7 manage county government, to successfully meet
8 the needs of the business community and the
9 people of Monroe County.
10 I think Bob King brings us the
11 kind of background and experience necessary to
12 ensure the balance that's so essential to
13 bringing regulatory reform to this state. I
14 applaud the Governor in his nomination. I'm
15 very pleased to see Bob King seek and receive
16 this office.
17 Thank you.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 DeFrancisco on the confirmation.
20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I rise to
21 speak on behalf of the nominee. I believe that
22 we have here a situation that, I think, few of
23 us would have taken up.
4065
1 Bob King, a very dedicated,
2 bright and articulate county executive of Monroe
3 County was asked to come into this administra
4 tion and do probably one of the most difficult
5 jobs that is in the administration, get through
6 the morass of regulations and try to make this a
7 more user-friendly state. He still has a bright
8 political future but was willing to sacrifice
9 that because he's a true believer in what has to
10 be done in the state, and there's not many of us
11 here, I think, that would have taken that step,
12 and we've got to congratulate the Governor on
13 making this nomination and, more importantly,
14 the nominee in being willing to sacrifice
15 himself for the good of this state and sacrifice
16 his political career for the good of all of us,
17 because it's so important that we have more true
18 believers in this state in what is needed to
19 turn the direction of this state to the
20 direction it should have been for the last 20
21 years.
22 Those are the reasons I'm voting
23 to support Mr. King, but I learned of three
4066
1 other reasons on the floor today;
2 Reason number one, Senator
3 Dollinger voted against him for his last
4 election;
5 Reason Number two, Senator
6 Dollinger supported the other candidate against
7 Bob King, and;
8 Thirdly, as a county legislator,
9 Senator Dollinger tried to give Bob King agita
10 as he's given many of us, so we can truly, truly
11 feel very close to Bob King because we've all
12 experienced that same agita on this floor every
13 day of every session.
14 So I congratulate the Governor
15 and wish Bob King the greatest success.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Johnson, on the confirmation.
18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
19 I spent a few years as many of you know as
20 chairman of the Environmental Conservation
21 Committee in this house, trying to get some
22 sanity in environmental regulations without much
23 success.
4067
1 Mr. President, it's kind of
2 interesting, I have in my hand a letter from a
3 vice-president of Environmental Affairs, Inter
4 national Paper Company, by the name of Thomas C.
5 Jorling. He just testified that he has become
6 aware that there are too many regulations and
7 the massive statutory authorization has been
8 enacted, the ream of implementing regulations
9 that have been promulgated, extensive and
10 elaborate guidance has been issued and judicial
11 decisions have been interpreted extensively, all
12 of this in a cyclical pattern, media by media,
13 we reach a point where the complexity is so
14 great the understanding exceeds the capacity of
15 a human mind, on and on and on, so he would like
16 to test the theory, being a vice-president of
17 International Paper, that you can have rational
18 regulation and economic process that do go hand
19 in hand.
20 It's wonderful and enlightening
21 on the part of Commissioner -- former
22 Commissioner Jorling. I think if he were here
23 and a convert now, we wouldn't need Bob King
4068
1 but, of course, we do need Bob King because all
2 the regulatory impediments that have been out
3 there and established and enshrined for years
4 and somebody's got to dig into it and throw it
5 out. That isn't necessary. You take away those
6 things which impede progress and don't provide
7 any environmental protection.
8 I'm very happy that Bob King is
9 in the position he is, and I can just testify
10 that the problem we had dealing with bakeries
11 that existed for a year and a half or more which
12 I couldn't resolve with the previous
13 administration and their commissioner, is on
14 it's way to being resolved by the action of Bob
15 King, and that's only one thing he's done.
16 There are a lot of other regulations.
17 Mr. President, I would just like
18 to say that Bob King is going to have to lead us
19 into a new era of rationality and regulation and
20 progress and economy of our state, and I very
21 wholeheartedly support his nomination.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Maziarz to close debate on the confirmation.
4069
1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr.
2 President.
3 I, too, rise in support of the
4 nomination of Bob King for the Director of
5 Regulatory Management Assistance.
6 For the first 12 weeks of this
7 year, Mr. President, I had the occasion to spend
8 an awful lot of time in western Monroe County
9 talking to business leaders, town supervisors,
10 elected officials, school district personnel,
11 and one name that continually came up in
12 conversation and always spoken about with a high
13 degree of respect and administration was the
14 name of their county executive, Bob King.
15 I believe firmly that the Govern
16 or has make an absolutely great appointment in
17 Bob King. When I was campaigning, I stopped at
18 a small business in the down of Gates in Monroe
19 County and I asked the gentleman there how busi
20 ness was, and he said, "Business is profitable
21 until I get my Workers' Comp' bill every
22 quarter", and I know that Bob King has a great
23 task ahead of him and, although I don't know Bob
4070
1 personally, haven't known him personally for a
2 very long time, everyone that I talked to, par
3 ticularly one person that I hold in the highest
4 degree of respect, my predecessor John Daly,
5 once told me that 20 years from now when people
6 are going to be reviewing the Pataki administra
7 tion and Pataki appointments, the best appoint
8 ment that the Governor makes, aside from his
9 Commissioner of Transportation, would be Bob
10 King as the Director of Regulatory and Manage
11 ment Assistance.
12 Mr. President, I move the
13 nomination of Bob King.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 question is on the confirmation of Robert L.
16 King, of Pittsford, New York, as Director of
17 Regulatory and Management Assistance. All those
18 in favor signify by saying aye.
19 (Response of "Aye".)
20 Opposed, nay.
21 (There was no response.)
22 The confirmation -- the
23 nomination is confirmed.
4071
1 We're happy to be joined by
2 Robert King. Bob, it's nice to have you here.
3 Good luck.
4 (Applause.)
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Skelos.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator
8 Leichter.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. May I
10 have unanimous consent? I want to be recorded
11 on a vote and ask just 15-20 seconds just to
12 explain why I'm doing it. I want to be recorded
13 on the negative on a confirmation we did
14 earlier, Mr. Gargano, for the Port Authority,
15 because it came to my attention after the vote
16 that Mr. Gargano, to qualify for this position,
17 changed his registration or registered in New
18 York City on March 27 of this year, seemingly
19 from what we would call a "voter's residence,"
20 not his true residence which just on a
21 confirmation a month ago he had told us was Dix
22 Hills. I question the bona fides of what he did
23 and whether he is really qualified under the
4072
1 statute for this position.
2 Therefore, I ask to be voted in
3 the negative.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 record will so reflect, Senator Leichter.
6 Senator Skelos.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, could -
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I want to
9 follow Senator Leichter and also be recorded in
10 the negative.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Without
12 objection.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Dollinger, the record will reflect that you
15 would have voted in the negative or you voted in
16 the negative on the confirmation of Charles
17 Gargano.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, thank
19 you, Mr. President. My views on that candidate
20 are well-known.
21 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
22 As you know, Mr. President, the Finance
23 Committee -- when Mr. Gargano's credentials were
4073
1 presented, that he indicated clearly on the
2 credentials that there was an address in New
3 York City as well as an address in Suffolk
4 County. Do you know that, Mr. President?
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very
6 much, Senator.
7 Can we proceed to the
8 noncontroversial calendar.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
10 will call the noncontroversial calendar.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Oh, I'm sorry,
12 Mr. President, one minute.
13 Senator Volker?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
15 recognizes Senator Volker.
16 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President.
17 I would like to call a meeting of the Codes
18 Committee as soon as possible in Room 332, the
19 conference room down the hall. 332, meeting of
20 the Codes Committee.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
22 will be an immediate meeting of the Codes
23 Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room
4074
1 332.
2 Senator Skelos.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
4 Can we take up the noncontroversial calendar?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
6 will read the noncontroversial calendar.
7 THE SECRETARY: On page number 9,
8 Calendar 122, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 429,
9 an act in relation to authorizing the
10 Commissioner of Transportation and others to
11 develop and implement a unified statewide
12 system.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
14 last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
16 act shall take effect on the 90th day.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
18 roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll.)
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
22 is passed.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4075
1 165, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 2496, an
2 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
3 relation to and for the purpose of enabling the
4 Dormitory Authority to construct and finance
5 dormitories.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
7 last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
15 is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 184, by Senator Velella, Senate Print -
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
20 bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 193, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1847, an
23 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in
4076
1 relation to providing an exemption for capital
2 construction costs.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
4 will read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
12 is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 214, by Senator LaValle.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
17 bill aside.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 236, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 1851, an
20 act to amend the Penal Law and the Criminal
21 Procedure Law, in relation to forgery and
22 illegal possession of vehicle identification
23 numbers.
4077
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for
2 the day.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
4 bill aside for the day.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 237, by Member of the Assembly Eve, Assembly
7 Print 2659, an act to amend the Civil Practice
8 Law and Rules, in relation to the personal
9 property exempt from application to the
10 satisfaction of money judgments.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
12 will read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
14 act shall take effect on the first day of
15 September.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll.)
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
20 the results.
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58, nays 1.
22 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
4078
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 259, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 2244, an
4 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation to
5 limiting time allowances for good behavior for
6 sexual offender.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for
8 the day.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
10 bill aside for the day.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 287, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 3441, an act
13 to allow police officers of the Town of
14 Saugerties to be covered under the provisions of
15 Section 384(d) of the Retirement and Social
16 Security Law.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
19 home rule message at the desk. Lay the bill
20 aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 304, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 380, an act
23 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
4079
1 relation to making it a felony to operate a
2 school bus while under the influence of alcohol
3 or drugs.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
5 will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
7 act shall take effect on the first day of
8 November.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Skelos, that completes the noncontroversial
17 calendar.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
19 Could we proceed to the controversial calendar.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
21 will read.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 184, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2704A, an
4080
1 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation
2 to disclosure of confidential HIV-related
3 information.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Velella, an explanation has been asked for by
7 Senator Paterson on Calendar Number 184.
8 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, this
9 bill is one which has received a great deal of
10 publicity. It's a bill which I'm sponsoring
11 along with Assemblywoman Mayersohn over in the
12 Assembly, and it's become known as the "Baby
13 AIDS Bill."
14 Basically, what it does is, under
15 current law, every baby that's born in New York
16 State is tested for the presence of the AIDS
17 antibody. The results of those tests are
18 blinded. That means that nobody finds out who
19 the individual was. What this bill, in essence,
20 will do is say that when that test is taken by
21 the state, the results are given to the Health
22 Department and the mother or caregiver for that
23 child is notified if there is a positive
4081
1 result.
2 There are various reasons which I
3 am sure many of you will ask during the course
4 of the debate on this bill. I don't want to
5 prolong the introduction to it. Very simply,
6 that is the essence of the bill, to let the
7 parent or the prime caregiver know the result of
8 the test.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Paterson.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
12 President. This is an extremely controversial
13 issue. The sponsors of bill, both Senator
14 Velella and Assemblywoman Mayersohn, the sponsor
15 in the Assembly -- although this is not the
16 exact bill -- have worked very hard on this
17 particular issue. They have been quite forth
18 coming about information. We had a conference
19 about this bill, some of the members of the
20 Minority, and we were happy to have Senator
21 Velella's counsel in that meeting along with
22 representatives from Senator Goodman's office.
23 Senator Marcellino on his third day in the
4082
1 Senate came himself, and it was really a
2 revolutionary concept, one that just came to
3 me.
4 In discussing this bill, there
5 are a number of correlative issues; and,
6 therefore, Mr. President, would Senator Velella
7 be willing to yield for a few questions.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Velella, do you yield to Senator Paterson?
10 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Senator yields.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
14 Velella, my first question is, just generally,
15 what will the disclosure impact fee be of this
16 particular bill? There are about 1800 cases of
17 women who tested positive at the birth of their
18 children; and as a result of a mandatory
19 testing, what number do you think that may rise
20 to.
21 SENATOR VELELLA: I couldn't
22 project what the number might be, Senator, but
23 the result would be, I believe, that we would
4083
1 have an excellent chance of prolonging the lives
2 of some young newborns, providing some services
3 for them so that their life would be a little
4 bit more comfortable, and possibly keeping them
5 alive long enough to the point where we might
6 find some kind of cure to deal with their
7 affliction. That's what I think would be the
8 ultimate result.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
10 much, Senator Velella.
11 Mr. President, through you,
12 Senator Velella.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Velella, do you continue to yield?
15 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Senator continues to yield.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: I notice in
19 this year's budget that there is no increase in
20 the general funding for treating the AIDS
21 disease, the HIV virus and some of the ancillary
22 diseases and medical care problems that are
23 caused by it. So if there is a significant
4084
1 increase, I am just suggesting that the
2 disclosure does not relate to the prevention or
3 to the treatment; and so what I'm just asking
4 you is how do you propose that we can increase
5 the treatment when we may not have the
6 resources?
7 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, the
8 best response I can give to you -- and I would
9 assume that you are talking about the budget
10 that the Governor and the Senate have put into
11 place, because I don't know of any other budget
12 that's around town that we might be looking at,
13 so I would have to take a look at our budget;
14 and I would say that the earlier detection would
15 allow us to do things like put those young
16 people who have been identified on drugs that
17 will be strong antibiotics to prevent the
18 pneumonias that cause the serious problems and
19 complications that in the long run cost us a lot
20 more money to administer. Once the disease has
21 manifested itself and once it has certainly
22 become evident in the child, the expenses are
23 much higher.
4085
1 So that we would be able to
2 identify these young people early on in their
3 stage before they develop the pneumonias, before
4 they develop all the afflictions that come along
5 with the disease and prevent a lot of the
6 expense, so it probably would save money if we
7 passed this bill. It should be, at worst, cost
8 neutral or slightly expensive, but I think in
9 the long run it will save us money because of
10 the high cost of administering to all the needs
11 of these young people when they get the
12 full-blown AIDS virus.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
14 Senator Velella, I am maintaining decorum here
15 but I don't know how you can say that we would
16 ever save money when you admit that what we're
17 doing is we're prolonging a virus. Let's be
18 clear on one point, Senator. If we prolong the
19 virus, we are incurring greater expenses
20 because, even when we prolong life, those heavy
21 costs, as you mentioned, that come toward the
22 end of life in treating the AIDS disease are
23 still there; and so the prolonging of life is
4086
1 not in any way going to decrease the expense.
2 The only way we could decrease
3 the expense, Senator, would be if we could
4 actually find a cure to the disease.
5 So what I'm -- I'm asking if you
6 are in support of additions to the budget to
7 fund what would be really a great task on the
8 part of our society to undertake this?
9 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, maybe
10 my explanation to you wasn't clear. What I'm
11 trying to say is that by early identification
12 and by treatments with antibiotics, strong anti
13 biotics, we prevent a lot of the pneumonias that
14 develop. Those pneumonias will develop if we
15 didn't know that the child had the AIDS virus,
16 that the child had the disease, and would cost a
17 substantial amount of money to treat those
18 maladies that would fall upon them without the
19 necessary antibiotic treatment.
20 By early identification, giving
21 that antibiotic treatment, we will be able to
22 prevent a lot of the expensive illness that
23 develops around AIDS. Absolutely the ultimate
4087
1 point, the final point, where the terminal facet
2 of the illness takes place, would be revenue
3 neutral, but certainly we would be able to
4 eliminate a lot of the expensive medical
5 attention that's necessary if we could prevent
6 some of these pneumonias which cause
7 complications.
8 If you had attended, and I don't
9 know if you did, some of the press conferences
10 that we held with some of these young people who
11 did not know they had AIDS, came home from the
12 hospital with their parent or with a legal
13 guardian or foster parent and found out only
14 after the pneumonias took place and after they
15 were in the hospital, you would see the
16 deformities and the maladies that befell them
17 that cost a lot of money to administer to.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Would Senator
19 Velella continue to yield?
20 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 continues to yield.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Now, Senator,
4088
1 point of clarification. The federal standard
2 through the CDC, as far as I understand it, is
3 that you don't start treating the infant with
4 Bactrim until after they receive the -- until
5 after they receive -- until after they have
6 actually gotten pneumonia.
7 SENATOR VELELLA: My
8 understanding -- and, again, I would stand
9 corrected if you have some medical information,
10 but my information is that one of the reasons
11 why you want to identify the presence of the
12 antibody early on or as early as possible after
13 birth -- and I might add in my explanation, my
14 bill addresses after the child is born. This
15 does not address something I think is needed in
16 this state, something we may see before the end
17 of this session, testing upon the finding out
18 that a woman is pregnant. That would be
19 something that I believe we might address later
20 on. But I believe that you will find that the
21 three reasons, and I cited this last year when
22 we discussed the Tully bill at that time, was
23 the possibility of reinfection through breast
4089
1 feeding by the mother, the need for a change in
2 inoculation schedule because of the weakened
3 condition of the child and its immune system,
4 and the third reason was the introduction and
5 treatment with antibiotics to prevent
6 pneumonias. Now, that I have gotten from many
7 medical sources, and I would assume that some
8 medical sources might differ, but I have gotten
9 that from some very reliable sources.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Paterson.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I
13 have here a portion of the federal clinical
14 practice guidelines for the treatment of HIV and
15 it says that the treating -- the treatment for
16 pneumocystis (PCP) pneumonia begins after the
17 baby has already contracted pneumonia, and the
18 reason that that is the case, Senator -
19 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, would
20 you yield to a question? You don't treat
21 something -- you don't treat something until
22 it's occurred, but there is a prevention mode
23 that is used. There is a difference between
4090
1 prevention and treatment once the thing is
2 diagnosed. You are talking about treatment. I
3 agree, you don't treat something until it
4 manifests itself.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Velella, I didn't hear the question, but -
7 SENATOR VELELLA: Is that
8 correct?
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Is that
10 correct?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Paterson, you have the floor.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Let me put it
14 this way, Senator. No.
15 In other words, I don't believe
16 it is correct, and let me explain to you why
17 this is the case. Fifteen to twenty-five
18 percent of the babies that are born testing
19 positive for the HIV virus sero convert. They
20 are born with the antibodies of the mother and
21 they inevitably develop their own immune
22 systems. So one of the real problems here -
23 and I'm not -- I'm not saying this either to
4091
1 advocate or to oppose your legislation. We are
2 just talking about facts here.
3 I'm saying this to point out that
4 just the result of the test leading to a
5 positive definition does not necessarily mean
6 that the infant is going to contract AIDS
7 through the HIV virus, so the reason that the
8 CDC has a federal standard for when to introduce
9 Bactrim is not as a prevention. It's really as
10 something that takes place when there is some
11 physical evidence that the virus is taking
12 effect. Now, as you know, there is a test in
13 which women who are in the sixth and seventh
14 month of pregnancy are being treated with AZT,
15 and this apparently is a preventive measure
16 because fewer babies are born testing positive
17 after that.
18 But the actual test, the one that
19 is advocated for in this bill, does not
20 necessarily tell us what the future is going to
21 lie for that particular newborn; and the danger
22 is -- from the past few years, is that there was
23 a time when we started treating newborns
4092
1 instantly with AZT, not Bactrim; and what we
2 really did was we destroyed the developing
3 immune systems in those babies, and those babies
4 succumbed. So, in other words, to just get a
5 positive test and then start treating the baby
6 with Bactrim is not necessarily a preventative
7 measure. It is, in fact, something that could
8 actually exacerbate the problem, and so that's
9 why I would answer your question, "No," not to
10 say the Bactrim can be very effective after the
11 baby has contracted pneumonia but that, at least
12 in the time period that we are discussing, it is
13 somewhat dangerous to start creating this type
14 of treatment before we really know that there is
15 a problem.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Stavisky, if Senator Paterson is through.
18 Senator Paterson, are you
19 through?
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Will Senator
21 Velella yield to a question?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Stavisky, just a minute.
4093
1 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Senator.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Stavisky. Senator Stavisky. I may have cut
4 Senator Paterson off unintentionally.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: I'm sorry.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson.
8 SENATOR STAVISKY: I would rise
9 for the purpose of asking Senator Paterson if he
10 would yield.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Senator yields.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
15 I know a lot of people want to speak on this
16 bill, and certainly nobody is going to be cut
17 off, but perhaps we can have a list established
18 so that it's known by the members, so some won't
19 wonder why somebody was called before me or
20 after me. So if members wish to speak, so we
21 can also manage the process today, if they could
22 indicate to the President that they do want to
23 speak, he will establish a list and we can move
4094
1 forward on the bill.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Paterson had the floor, Senator Stavisky. I
4 thought he was done. That's why I recognized
5 you because you are next on the list.
6 Senator Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
8 President. I just want to make sure, if Senator
9 Stavisky was beginning his questioning, I would
10 ask him to let me complete mine; but if it was
11 just a point on this particular issue that
12 anybody would like to raise, I would certainly
13 welcome it.
14 Senator Velella, if you would
15 continue to yield?
16 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, I yield.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 yields, Senator Paterson.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: One of the
20 hospitals in my district, Harlem Hospital,
21 Senator Stavisky, has been gradually having beds
22 decertified; and what I'm asking is would there
23 be a reregistration of beds, in other words, to
4095
1 increase the number of beds being used by the
2 hospital as a result of this crisis in which 56
3 percent of the victims, the mothers who are
4 giving birth to newborns and then testing HIV
5 positive, these individuals? What I'm worried
6 about preliminarily to even our discussion as to
7 the treatments which we've been discussing is
8 whether or not there is going to be additional
9 care for these individuals?
10 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, with
11 all due respect, and you know I do hold you in a
12 lot of personal high respect, I think that's
13 kind of a silly question to ask me.
14 What we're talking about here is
15 identifying something that's in a child that's
16 born. If we close our eyes, it's not going away
17 we're going to have to deal with that problem
18 today or tomorrow. You know, it's the old
19 question of pay me now or pay me later.
20 What I'm saying to you is the
21 earlier we detect it, the earlier we deal with
22 it, the better we are. So what I'm trying to
23 say is whatever beds are out there, whatever
4096
1 dollars are out there, they are going to be out
2 there. We will have to marshal our assets to
3 deal with the problem as it develops the best we
4 can, but, certainly, it's inexcusable to close
5 our eyes to the problem and say, "We don't need
6 more beds, we don't need more money, because the
7 problem doesn't exist. We can't identify these
8 kids; we can't give them the treatment anyway.
9 We will have to marshal our
10 assets, make them work wherever we can, and do
11 the best we can. But not knowing is the worst
12 excuse.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
14 Senator.
15 Mr. President. I don't know if
16 this is a silly question, but haven't we closed
17 our eyes to the mothers? I don't see anything
18 in this legislation that would treat the mothers
19 now that they have tested positive for the HIV
20 virus.
21 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, I
22 guess we might have a difference of opinion
23 there. I think we're doing a tremendous service
4097
1 to the mother when we let her know the realities
2 of what her condition is, what she might be
3 spreading to a child, what she might be
4 spreading to a person that she lives with, what
5 she might be spreading to another child that's
6 home that hadn't been infected. I think there
7 is a tremendous amount of advantage that we're
8 giving to that mother, letting her know her
9 condition and maybe we just might save a child
10 along the way.
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Padavan, why do you rise?
14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator
15 Paterson yield for a question?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Padavan?
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Without a
19 doubt.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 yields without a doubt.
22 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, are
23 you aware of the fact that for statistical
4098
1 purposes babies are already tested for HIV?
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I am, Mr.
3 President.
4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Are you also
5 aware that in many cases the baby if breast fed
6 will be more likely to be susceptible to HIV
7 manifesting itself in a very serious problem as
8 opposed if they are not breast fed? Are you
9 aware of that connection?
10 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm aware of
11 the connection between breast feeding and
12 contracting the HIV virus, yes, I am, Senator.
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Now, therefore,
14 my question, Senator, and this is the end of it,
15 does it not make sense for that mother to be
16 notified of the result of the test, and I
17 understand there's about 1800 or maybe even more
18 than that annually in New York City alone,
19 irrespective of the number because, frankly, if
20 it's even one, it's important. But does it not
21 make sense to advise that mother so that at
22 least that one precaution would be taken? We
23 would say to her that, in effect, "We strongly
4099
1 suggest to you, based on this test data, that
2 you not breast feed your child. It may mean the
3 difference between life and death of the baby.
4 Doesn't that make sense?
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
6 unfortunately, I don't think that's actually
7 what happens in these particular situations.
8 The determination, Senator Padavan, of whether
9 or not the mother is going to breast feed can
10 not come as a result of a test, if you
11 understand me. It has to come as a result of
12 counseling.
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
14 Will the Senator yield just for clarification?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Padavan?
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Absolutely.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 yields.
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: If the law does
21 not require that the issue of HIV testing of the
22 mother is such that we mandate this
23 communication, then the counseling, which I have
4100
1 no problem with -- I think there ought to be
2 extensive counseling, but we're talking here
3 about the mandate of identifying the
4 circumstance. If we don't first deal with the
5 mandate, then the things that follow -- in this
6 case, the breast feeding -- I think is very,
7 very critical.
8 I don't take quarrel with many of
9 the things you said previously, but I think it's
10 intrinsic to the initiative here that we in the
11 course of mandating that parent be notified
12 about a half a dozen other serious problems that
13 are identified in the maternity ward if they
14 should occur, many that were adopted by this
15 Legislature over a period of years, and we would
16 be adding one more, that if the mother is so
17 notified along with a statement of fact, "You
18 should not breast feed because you compound the
19 problem, place the child's life in danger." One
20 must follow the other. You can't have one
21 without the other. Isn't that true?
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
23 President. I will look at you, but Senator
4101
1 Padavan should know that I'm thinking of him.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Paterson, excuse me just a minute.
4 Senator Mendez, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will Senator
6 Paterson yield for a question?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Mendez?
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, but I
10 have to answer Senator Padavan first. I have a
11 list.
12 (Laughter.)
13 Mr. President. I think the point
14 at which Senator Padavan and I are missing each
15 other is that the test itself takes two or three
16 weeks to finalize a determination of whether the
17 mother is HIV positive. If the mother is not
18 breast feeding -- if she's not breast feeding,
19 she can't start two or three weeks into the life
20 of the newborn. If she is already breast
21 feeding, then she has been breast feeding this
22 child for two or three weeks, and there is no
23 relevant medical data, Senator Padavan, that
4102
1 there will be any change based on continued
2 breast feeding, although we can assume and it
3 would be correct for her to stop breast feeding.
4 So what I'm saying is that this
5 bill is talking about the testing of newborns.
6 Now, if we had a bill talking about testing of
7 women while they were pregnant, that would be a
8 different story. But this bill is relating to
9 the testing of newborns.
10 And so I'm submitting, Mr.
11 President, that the issue of breast feeding is
12 really not a related issue in this particular
13 case other than the fact that Senator Padavan is
14 in favor of the counseling prenatally to
15 encourage high-risk women that they should not
16 breast feed because breast feeding is a way in
17 which the virus is transferred from the mother
18 to the child, and that is actually our current
19 policy.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Now,
21 Senator Paterson, do you yield to Senator
22 Mendez?
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, without
4103
1 a doubt. If I yielded to Senator Padavan, I
2 would have to yield to Senator Mendez.
3 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you.
4 Thank you. I know, Senator Paterson, that all
5 your life you have been fighting, like many
6 American citizens do throughout our democracy -
7 you have been fighting to eliminate double
8 standards; right? So, in 1983, when the issue
9 came forth pertaining to people receiving blood
10 transfusions, and many individuals,
11 unfortunately, did in fact -- were infected with
12 HIV, with the HIV virus, through transmission,
13 the issue became a very controversial one, but,
14 eventually, the need to know whether or not you,
15 an adult, that has received a blood transfusion
16 that contained the HIV virus was resolved by
17 letting that adult know. Do you think that in
18 the case of babies born with the mother's
19 antibody and 10 or 25 percent of them with the
20 HI-Virus that this baby should be treated
21 differently? They should receive a double
22 standard -- should apply to them a double
23 standard?
4104
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
2 President. It's not that the 10 to 15 to 25
3 percent of the babies are born with the HIV
4 virus. It's that a significantly higher number
5 of them test positive when they are born, but
6 they all don't have the HIV virus. So that's
7 the difference between this test and one of
8 blood transfusions in 1983. In other words,
9 what I'm saying is, what I think we're missing
10 here is some of the same treatments that we're
11 using for the HIV virus -- and this is why I
12 think we have some polls out where everyone is
13 saying that they're for this, but what everyone
14 is really saying is that we're for the
15 protection of babies. That isn't just 80
16 percent -
17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator
18 Paterson.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Paterson, do you continue to yield to Senator
21 Mendez?
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr.
23 President.
4105
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 continues to yield.
3 SENATOR MENDEZ: Getting back to
4 double standards, Senator Paterson, doctors in
5 New York State, do advise the lover of an
6 individual found to be infected with HIV. The
7 doctors are allowed, in fact, they must, in New
8 York State to alert the lover of a person that
9 was found to be infected with HIV. Why can't
10 the mother of a child that was born either with
11 the mother's serum or with the HIV virus, why
12 shouldn't that mother be told? Is it one
13 standard for adults and another standard for
14 babies?
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
16 President. First of all, doctors advise that.
17 That is not mandated. There is no standard for
18 adults. There is no mandated disclosure of an
19 HIV test as it stands right now. So even if it
20 was the case, it wouldn't be a double standard;
21 it wouldn't be inconsistent with what we're
22 doing now.
23 Now, as far as the babies are
4106
1 concerned when we are really testing -- when
2 we're testing the newborns is we're testing the
3 mother. We are really not testing the baby
4 because we don't know whether or not the baby is
5 infected with the HIV virus. We know that there
6 is a possibility that the baby is infected with
7 the HIV virus if, in fact, the mother has the
8 HIV virus.
9 Now, to just continue the point
10 where I was just a moment ago, before Senator
11 Mendez wanted to ask me another question.
12 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will the Senator
13 yield for one more question?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Will you
15 yield, Senator Paterson, for one last question
16 from Senator Mendez?
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr.
18 President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 yields.
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you,
22 Senator Paterson. Do you know, Senator
23 Paterson, that there is in New York State
4107
1 mandatory testing of both parents and infants
2 with notification for the Tay-Sachs disease and
3 for sickle cell anemia? Did you know that?
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes. There
5 are actually seven diseases where they're
6 mandatory testing.
7 SENATOR MENDEZ: For these two
8 diseases, for these two illnesses, parents and
9 babies are mandated to be tested, and they are
10 mandated to receive the results of those tests.
11 Why in the world couldn't the
12 results of a baby's test that is being conducted
13 at the present time, why should those results
14 not be given to the mother?
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
16 President. Senator Mendez named two of the
17 diseases that are -
18 SENATOR MENDEZ: There are
19 seven.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, and there
21 are actually seven; and in those cases, there is
22 a mandatory requirement that there be
23 notification. So the question is why would the
4108
1 same health departments that have allowed for
2 there to be mandatory revelation of those tests
3 suddenly oppose it with the HIV virus? And it
4 goes back to a point that I was starting to take
5 up with Senator Velella, and so I wish that he
6 would be free to join in at this point, and
7 Senator Mendez, if she would like.
8 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President,
9 I'm free.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank
11 you, Senator Velella, for informing us of that.
12 Senator Paterson, Senator Velella
13 says he free.
14 You may continue, Senator
15 Paterson. You have the floor.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: The issue that
17 I'm rising is effective intervention. That is
18 what I was talking about when I was saying we
19 have polls now that show that 80 percent of the
20 population is actually in favor of mandatory
21 testing and the results of informed consent -
22 you know, the passing of that information.
23 What I'm saying is, and it's
4109
1 tragic to stand here and say this, and I think
2 it's something that we're all feeling the pain
3 of is that we don't have an effective
4 intervention; and in the case of newborns, we
5 did intervene. We treated babies years ago with
6 AZT, and those babies succumbed. Those babies
7 died because we didn't know at the time that we
8 were treating an immunodepressant virus with an
9 immune suppressant drug.
10 And what I'm saying is that AZT
11 exacerbates the virus. There is no one on this
12 planet that's been treated with AZT for a period
13 of four years that hasn't suffered significant
14 dismantling of their immune systems. Now, in
15 the cases of newborns, they have started to use
16 Bactrim, which is really a drug that does not
17 have any real history. We don't know what the
18 effect of it is.
19 What we're doing today in some
20 respects -- it doesn't matter whether we pass
21 this bill or we don't pass this bill, but we are
22 institutionalizing a treatment that has failed.
23 Any doctor will tell you that. That's why a
4110
1 significant number of medical associations are
2 opposing this bill today. That's the point that
3 we're actually missing.
4 If we had a cure, there would be
5 no question. I would vote for this bill. We
6 wouldn't be having this debate, but we don't
7 have a cure; and when Senator Velella said a few
8 moments ago that maybe one of the babies will be
9 cured, there is no cure. Nobody knows one.
10 But what we have -- and this goes
11 for children and adults -- is the systematized
12 treating of the HIV virus with drugs such as
13 AZT, DDI, and DDC, which only exacerbate the
14 virus. They prolong life, but they actually
15 attack the immune system at a greater rate; in
16 other words, there are more people who
17 experience sudden death with the drugs that
18 treat the HIV virus than actually succumb on a
19 long-term basis. It's just that the average of
20 people who are treated with the drugs live
21 longer, and that is positive in the sense that
22 we can extend life.
23 But when you have a situation as
4111
1 you have with newborns, where they originally
2 test positive but they sero convert, 65, 70, 75
3 percent of them, in the first eighteen months of
4 their lives, what you now have is a situation
5 where if we start treating the babies at birth
6 and we don't know whether or not they're going
7 to get the virus, we're going to kill them.
8 That's what it really comes down to.
9 Now, we're not doing this by
10 intent. Everybody here is trying to accomplish
11 the same thing, but it has been a perpetuation
12 of misinformation that, in my opinion, Mr.
13 President, has caused us as a society to take so
14 long to really start to try to find the cures,
15 and this is a mistake we -
16 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator yield?
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Excuse me?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Paterson. Senator Velella, why do you rise?
20 SENATOR VELELLA: Would Senator
21 Patterson yield?
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Absolutely.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4112
1 Paterson yields, Senator Velella.
2 SENATOR VELELLA: Where in this
3 bill do you see any requirement that a positive
4 hit or positive test on a newborn infant
5 requires administering of AZT?
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, not at
7 all. None.
8 SENATOR VELELLA: Okay.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: In fact, I'm
10 saying that's what we used to do, but I'm
11 saying -
12 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator,
13 would it not be wise, if you'd yield to another
14 question -- Senator yield to another question?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Paterson, do you yield to another question from
17 Senator Velella?
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr.
19 President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Senator yields.
22 SENATOR VELELLA: Would you agree
23 with me, Senator, that the medical decision of
4113
1 the treatment of a positively identified child
2 would be best left to the medical societies and
3 the medical professionals than to this
4 legislative body to try and mandate any kind of
5 medical treatment, but yet identifying them so
6 that the medical community can deal with the
7 problem with the best available technology would
8 be the smartest thing to do?
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
10 President. First of all, the overwhelming
11 number of the medical societies oppose this
12 bill.
13 SENATOR VELELLA: Point of
14 order. Let's state the truth. Let's not
15 misstate it.
16 There is no -- there is no memo
17 from the New York State Medical Society opposing
18 this bill. There was a memo last year
19 supporting Senator Tully's bill but not opposing
20 our bill. I have seen none. I spoke to the
21 Medical Society yesterday. They have taken no
22 position on this bill. They do support the
23 Tully bill. They do not oppose this bill.
4114
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
2 President. I stand corrected if I said the New
3 York County Medical Society.
4 SENATOR VELELLA: Upstate.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: I didn't say
6 any medical society.
7 SENATOR VELELLA: Oh.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: I just said I
9 felt that the majority of them oppose this
10 bill. But, Senator Velella, you are correct.
11 There is no mandated treatment as a result of
12 the passage of this bill.
13 In fact, there is no care at all
14 that is necessarily prescribed in this
15 particular bill, and what I'm trying to point
16 out to you is that the determination, that
17 moment in time that exists when we test, that
18 result, what I'm saying is if it were an adult,
19 it would be one thing. It's very clear about
20 what happens to the mother, but the HIV
21 positive/negative rating of the child is
22 something that is an inertia inherent. It is
23 not static. And I'm just saying that an
4115
1 immediate treatment upon the diagnosis could be
2 a very harmful thing.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Maltese, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President.
6 Would the Senator yield for a question?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Maltese?
9 SENATOR PATERSON: As a matter of
10 fact, Mr. President, I would like you to record
11 at the desk that I am permanently available for
12 questions. Somehow I thought this was Senator
13 Velella's bill, but I will -
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: A very
15 popular guy today.
16 Senator Maltese, Senator Paterson
17 yields.
18 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President.
19 Was it Senator Paterson's position that since
20 there was a lengthy period of time between the
21 time of the baby's birth and the time of the
22 diagnosis that, therefore, it was futile to
23 inform the mother that since she would have
4116
1 already -- that since that time was lengthy and
2 she would have already started breast feeding
3 that there was no benefit to the child to advise
4 the mother of the results of this test?
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
6 Maltese, what I was just saying is by the time
7 the test results are in, the best feeding is now
8 into its third week and so the test is actually
9 late.
10 And, again, in answering your
11 question, I'm not giving on that particular
12 answer any suggestion to you as to which way to
13 vote on this bill. I'm just pointing out to you
14 that if, let's say, the bill had asked for
15 babies to -- I mean for the mothers to be tested
16 during their pregnancy, that would be a little
17 different. If a mother tests positive at five
18 months, for instance, then you can start
19 treating her with AZT which has been very
20 effective. These kinds of drugs are very
21 effective in short-term, extremely dangerous
22 medical situations, and so, yes, it would be.
23 But this bill addresses newborns,
4117
1 and I'm just saying, Senator Maltese, that we're
2 into our third week of breast feeding before we
3 find out that result.
4 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President.
5 I yield to Senator Paterson's obvious knowledge
6 of this bill, the treatment, and other medical
7 situations connected with this bill, but I am
8 advised that there are treatments, and one is
9 called PCR that is a test -- I'm sorry, not
10 treatments, but a test that the results can be
11 provided within days or hours.
12 In addition, I am advised that
13 right now the reason that some of the tests take
14 such an inordinate period of time is because
15 there is no reason for speed since the mother is
16 not advised at any rate; but that if there was a
17 rationale behind expediting the tests, the test
18 would be made much more expeditiously and
19 possibly be more helpful to the child.
20 So my question, Senator Paterson,
21 is that if a test can be made expeditiously and
22 if the result of that test can be given to the
23 mother and if the mother then can make an
4118
1 informed decision as to whether to breast feed
2 the child and if, further, that if the further
3 breast feeding of that child would harm or
4 increase the risk to that child, would you then
5 support this bill? If that can be shown to you,
6 that chain of facts can be shown to you, would
7 you then support this bill on the theory that
8 you would save some lives and you would lengthen
9 possibly the lives of other infants until a more
10 effective cure can be found?
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
12 to Senator Maltese. My point of view on this
13 bill does not turn on this particular issue. I
14 was just pointing this out to you as a matter of
15 what I thought was fact.
16 Now, the ELISA test has to come
17 first even if the PCR test -- the one that
18 you're talking to, which is a biomolecular test,
19 that comes later. The PCR test to which you
20 were referring is an extremely expensive test,
21 Senator Maltese, and to conduct it is going to
22 really involve a vast expenditure of money, and
23 that was why earlier in the questioning I asked
4119
1 Senator Velella about the care. My concern,
2 Senator Maltese, is that we will now have a way
3 of identifying who has HIV; and as a result of
4 identifying these individuals, we can cause
5 problems, abandoned babies, for instance, when
6 the mothers know that the babies are born
7 positive for the HIV virus, a number of problems
8 that would inure based on the fact that you are
9 taking people and making them find out that they
10 have a disease that may be actually incurable.
11 But in answer to your -
12 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Just quickly
14 in answer to your question, if we could -- if we
15 could actually effect that, Senator Maltese, I
16 think that would be a good thing, to get the
17 test so we have the test a couple of days ahead;
18 and you are absolutely right, that would
19 increase the opportunity of survival because you
20 have now increased the time that it takes the
21 mother.
22 But just one last point. Any
23 woman who is in any risk situation, long before
4120
1 any test, is advised not to breast feed.
2 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
3 through you.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Maltese, excuse me just a minute.
6 Senator Skelos, why do you rise?
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Perhaps when
8 Senator Maltese and Senator Paterson finish, at
9 that time -- and this is in consultation with
10 the Minority -- I understand that we have the
11 rare occasion of Senator Dollinger offering up
12 an amendment; that we should take up that
13 amendment and debate the amendment and perhaps
14 the bill at the same time since they are inter
15 related, if there is no objection.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: If the
17 Majority Leader chooses, Mr. President, let me
18 yield at this time and let Senator Dollinger put
19 in his amendment.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair
21 would note that there are at this point seven
22 speakers who have indicated that they would like
23 to speak on this bill, and Senator Dollinger is
4121
1 at the end of that list, but with the consent of
2 the Minority and the Majority Leader, we will
3 recognize Senator Dollinger at this point for
4 the purpose of offering an amendment.
5 Senator Dollinger.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
7 also, if we could, on behalf of Senator
8 Stafford, there will be an immediate meeting of
9 the Finance Committee in Room 332 of the Capitol
10 followed by a meeting of the Rules Committee.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
12 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
13 Committee in the Majority conference room, Room
14 332, to be followed by a Rules Committee
15 meeting.
16 Senator Dollinger, for the
17 purpose of offering up an amendment.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
19 Mr. President, and I want to thank my colleagues
20 for allowing me to do this out of line, the
21 Deputy Majority Leader as well as the Deputy
22 Minority Leader.
23 Mr. President. I believe there
4122
1 is an amendment at the desk. I ask that it be
2 called up. I waive its reading and ask for an
3 opportunity to make an explanation.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Dollinger, the amendment is at the desk. The
6 reading of it is waived, and you are provided
7 the opportunity at this time to explain the
8 amendment.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
10 President. This amendment is the supposed
11 Tully-Silver bill that was done last year, I
12 believe unanimously approved in this house.
13 This bill differs from the bill that is before
14 the house today.
15 Strike that, then. I thought it
16 was unanimously approved in this house, but I
17 may be mistaken. Let me just explain the bill.
18 The purpose of this bill is to
19 require mandatory counseling of all women before
20 they deliver their child. I would commend -- in
21 the context of this amendment, let me commend
22 Senator Velella, Assemblywoman Mayersohn and
23 others who brought this issue to the fore.
4123
1 I think this is not only one of
2 the most interesting issues, but is a
3 fascinating discussion of science, a fascinating
4 discussion of public policy in the context of
5 science, and one that certainly is worthy of
6 debate.
7 But let me emphasize the benefit
8 of this bill for every woman in the State of New
9 York. A lot of the discussion that has gone on
10 previously with Senator Paterson, Senator
11 Mendez, Senator Maltese and Senator Velella, has
12 all dealt on the issue of what happens after the
13 child is born. The wisdom of this bill is that
14 this bill turns our attention and turns the
15 attention of the people of this state to the
16 most critical time when we can actually stop the
17 transmission of this disease, when we can stop
18 it, and the way to stop it is to identify women
19 who are HIV positive.
20 This bill would require mandatory
21 counseling to inform them of the benefits of HIV
22 testing and to tell them if they take the test
23 and find out that they are HIV positive, we have
4124
1 something that can substantially reduce the
2 incidence of HIV being passed to your child, and
3 it's called AZT. It can be taken during the
4 period of pregnancy, and the evidence is
5 dramatic. It reduces the rate of infection from
6 approximately 25 percent of women who pass it on
7 to their children to approximately 8 percent of
8 women who pass it onto their children.
9 Seventeen percent of the women in
10 this state who would pass HIV on to their
11 children will find that they don't do it because
12 they took the test before they delivered and
13 because they took AZT during the period of their
14 pregnancy. That holds the greatest promise for
15 reducing the transmission of this infection.
16 What this bill does is this bill
17 says it will be the policy of this state to
18 require that women get counseling to take the
19 test, take the test when it really matters, when
20 we can stop the prevention -- when we can stop
21 the spread of the disease.
22 One of the issues that Senator
23 Paterson spoke about is how do we deal with the
4125
1 issue of breast feeding? What could happen is a
2 child could be born to an HIV positive mother.
3 The test results would come back three weeks
4 later and advise the mother that the child has
5 the antibodies. In three-quarters of the cases,
6 that child will not develop HIV. In one-quarter
7 of the cases, they will. But the great danger
8 is, and I acknowledge this is a danger -- is
9 that during the breast feeding period, there is
10 some medical evidence that suggests that a
11 mother could pass HIV from her own system into
12 that of her child by breast feeding.
13 But what's the one way we can
14 tell a woman not to breast feed her child, do
15 not do it at all? Test her while she's
16 pregnant.
17 If you test her while she's
18 pregnant and it turns out she is HIV positive,
19 then what we have to do is simply say to her,
20 "Listen, when your child is born -- when your
21 child is born, take AZT." That will reduce the
22 chance of passing the infection to 8 percent.
23 Then what we do is to simply say to her, "We are
4126
1 going to advise you that if you breast feed your
2 child, you could increase the incidence from 8
3 percent to some unknown number," which ideally
4 medical knowledge will tell us -
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
6 me, Senator Dollinger. Senator Marcellino, why
7 do you rise?
8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I would ask,
9 Mr. President, if Senator will yield for a
10 question?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Dollinger, do you yield for a question?
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In a moment,
14 Mr. President. I will just finish explaining
15 the other details of bill. I will be glad -- I
16 believe there are others. Senator Velella has
17 that look of a question about him.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 will yield in a moment.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator Gold
21 does, as well.
22 Let me tell you what this bill
23 also does. Not only does it require that there
4127
1 be counseling, not only does it require that
2 medical care be given to the provider -- medical
3 information be given to the provider as well as
4 the mother so there would be complete disclosure
5 of information prior to the test once the woman
6 decided to take the test.
7 It also requires that a pregnant
8 or postpartum woman receiving HIV-related
9 counseling be presented with a form for
10 signature and that of a health care provider
11 acknowledging receipt of the required
12 counseling.
13 It would direct the Commissioner
14 of Health to engage in a series of services to
15 help with the problem of HIV-positive children,
16 and I think it sets up a series of additional
17 protections to monitor the system and find out
18 how well it performs.
19 This was a bill that in my
20 recollection passed this house unanimously as an
21 indication of the sentiments of this chamber
22 about how to deal with the problem. I don't
23 know that anything about HIV has changed in the
4128
1 last eight months that dictates we would
2 suddenly do a reversal of form and instead go to
3 mandatory testing after birth rather than
4 mandatory counseling before birth.
5 I will now respond to Senator
6 Marcellino's question.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Marcellino, Senator now yields.
9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
10 President. I would like a clarification of
11 exactly what this amendment would do to this
12 particular bill. Would it eliminate the
13 provisions of this particular situation and
14 substitute the previous one?
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, the
16 purpose of the amendment, through you, Mr.
17 President, is to take the current bill on the
18 floor and to substitute in toto the bill that we
19 approved last year and strike out the remaining
20 portions of the bill that is on the table -- on
21 the floor today.
22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
4129
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Gold, why do you rise?
3 SENATOR GOLD: I was going to ask
4 the gentleman to yield.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Dollinger, do you yield to Senator Gold?
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll be glad
8 to yield to Senator Gold.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 yields.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Dollinger,
12 if I understand it, just so I get it right, your
13 bill is one which gets in there early, tries to
14 give counseling, encouragement, et cetera, et
15 cetera, but the testing is basically voluntary.
16 Is that correct?
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's
18 correct.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Dollinger,
20 if you will yield to one more question.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes.
22 SENATOR GOLD: You asked what
23 changed from last year to this year. Isn't it a
4130
1 fact that the one thing that changed is that
2 last year we couldn't get the Mayersohn-Velella
3 bill on the floor, and this year we've got it?
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
5 President, through you to Senator Gold. I don't
6 know. I don't know. I know that we had this
7 bill on the floor, and we voted on this bill,
8 and I don't know why the Mayersohn-Velella bill
9 wasn't on the floor last year, although,
10 frankly, with the sponsor here, I don't know why
11 it wasn't on the floor.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, if you
13 will yield to a question.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Dollinger?
16 SENATOR GOLD: My recollection -
17 and I could be wrong, but my recollection is
18 that there were many of us, including me, who
19 believe that as a minimum the Mayersohn-Velella
20 bill should be on the floor, entitled to a
21 hearing. There was a lot of negotiating back
22 and forth, and I believe that Senator Tully, who
23 had a bill which mirrors your amendment, was
4131
1 able to bring his bill out; and I know from my
2 point of view -- I may have even made these
3 remarks on the floor -- while I would have
4 preferred to vote for the Mayersohn-Velella
5 bill, if we're not going to take that up and
6 we're not going to do it, I wasn't going to vote
7 against this bill or your amendment because it
8 was a program that might help and might save
9 lives.
10 But I'm just saying to you that
11 it seems to me -- and you tell me if I'm wrong
12 -- there is a substantial difference between
13 last year and this year in that this year we
14 have the chance, if there are 31 votes, to pass
15 the Mayersohn-Velella, Velella-Mayersohn bill.
16 That is, it seems to me, a major difference.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is that -
18 SENATOR GOLD: Forget the
19 question. When it is my chance, I would like to
20 speak.
21 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Maltese, why do you rise?
4132
1 SENATOR MALTESE: Would the
2 Senator yield for a question?
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, I will,
4 Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 yields.
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
8 through you. I have listened as Senator
9 Paterson has given us a fairly extensive and
10 apparently very knowledgeable exposition of the
11 detrimental effect of AZT, and now you have
12 risen and indicated that one of the benefits of
13 the counseling incorporated within the confines
14 of your bill is that you would be able to
15 administer AZT much earlier and that it has very
16 beneficial effects.
17 My question, Mr. President, is
18 has Senator Dollinger's medical experts
19 consulted with Senator Paterson's medical
20 experts and have they come to a conclusion as to
21 the efficacy of AZT?
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
23 President. Just in response to Senator Maltese,
4133
1 I believe that the experts are right in both
2 cases, because what I believe the experts I was
3 talking about is as a result of a study in which
4 pregnant women took AZT in the last trimester of
5 their pregnancy and what they found was that the
6 transmission from mother to child, the rate of
7 transmission, dropped from 25 percent to about 8
8 percent.
9 What I believe Senator Paterson
10 is making reference to is once the child is born
11 and once the child begins to be treated with AZT
12 as a child that that affects -- and I won't
13 speak for Senator Paterson, but my recollection
14 of what he said was that when you treat the
15 child with AZT, it has an effect on the immune
16 system.
17 I think that in this instance,
18 the predelivery treatment of the mother with AZT
19 has a very significant impact on reducing
20 transmission. The postpartum treatment of the
21 child, I believe -- and I will let Senator
22 Paterson speak for himself -- I believe that the
23 evidence is that that does have a potentially
4134
1 compromising effect on the immune system. But I
2 don't know that. I'll leave Senator Paterson
3 with his science.
4 But I believe in this instance,
5 in direct response to your question, the science
6 is correct in both instances.
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
8 then, through you. Your bill, like Senator
9 Velella's bill, does not mandate or even
10 recommend any course of treatment, AZT or any
11 other course of treatment. It simply indicates
12 that there are opportunities for this course of
13 treatment that would be enhanced for prenatal
14 attention by virtue of enacting your bill?
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Correct, Mr.
16 President. What this bill says is that if you
17 really want to stop transmission -- and, believe
18 me, Senator Velella, Assemblywoman Mayersohn, I
19 think have done this state a tremendous service
20 by bringing this issue up and by proposing a
21 solution. We may disagree, but I don't for a
22 second -- even though I'm making this proposed
23 substitution, I don't want to infer or have
4135
1 anyone suggest that Senator Velella,
2 Assemblywoman Mayersohn, and the people who
3 support this bill, aren't concerned about the
4 transmission problem, because I hear it loud and
5 clear that they are.
6 But the issue becomes how do you
7 stop transmission, and I believe the science
8 says that the best way to do that, to stop
9 transmission -- the issue of dealing with the
10 child who has this disease after birth is
11 another issue. But to reduce the transmission,
12 I believe the science is on the nose and
13 suggests that if you have the test earlier, if
14 you create mandatory counseling that says: You
15 have exposed yourself to potentially high risk.
16 You ought to have this test because if you have
17 it now, you can actually prevent the
18 transmission. You can take AZT which reduces
19 the incidence, and then we will tell you -- we
20 will tell you not to breast feed the child so
21 that we don't back our way into the disease
22 after birth, which is the other danger.
23 That's why I think this bill, as
4136
1 far as mandatory counseling before delivery, is
2 a better approach.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
4 me, Senator Dollinger.
5 Senator Rath, why do you rise?
6 SENATOR RATH: Will Senator
7 Dollinger yield for a question.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll be glad
9 to, Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 yields to Senator Rath.
12 SENATOR RATH: Yes, through you,
13 Mr. President. Senator Dollinger, you just
14 indicated that when someone had been a high
15 risk, had led let's say a high-risk kind of
16 lifestyle, that with counseling it would be
17 recommended that they should take this test.
18 But I think if we go back to a year ago, it was
19 late and it was at night, and there were two
20 bills that were being talked about. The
21 finances of being able to do both bills was one
22 of the questions at that time; and although
23 finances were talked about very early on in the
4137
1 debate today, no one has talked lately about
2 whether we would be able to afford both bills if
3 both bills should pass; and it's my recollection
4 that last year nothing passed because it wasn't
5 decided as to where the money would be best
6 spent, whether it would be best spent in
7 counseling someone who might indeed decide not
8 to take the test even though they admitted to a
9 high-risk lifestyle or whether the money should
10 go to the Mayersohn-Velella effort for the
11 testing. Can you answer the question as to
12 whether there have been dollar attachments to
13 the amendment or if you are aware as to where
14 the emphasis might go dollarswise.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. Through
16 you, Mr. President. I raised the issue in the
17 Senate Health Committee and have had discussions
18 with Senator Hannon's staff. I should also
19 commend Senator Hannon because he's been very
20 forthright in the debate over this bill and
21 providing information about it.
22 What happened, it's my
23 understanding -- and I'll preface everything by
4138
1 saying this is my understanding -- there was
2 $5 million in the state budget for prenatal
3 services. That money was originally designed
4 under the prior version of the Velella-Mayersohn
5 bill. The language in the Public Health Law -
6 I believe it's the Public Health Law -- was
7 changed. What it originally said was that the
8 $5 million goes for mandatory counseling for
9 counseling before birth and also for treatment
10 after birth.
11 In the first version of this
12 bill, the mandatory counseling provision was
13 struck out and only provided that the $5 million
14 could be used for services after birth. My
15 understanding now in the revised edition and the
16 current amendment which is before the floor is
17 that that deletion of a portion of the $5
18 million for mandatory counseling has now been
19 eliminated. We fall back to the current
20 language in law which says it can be either used
21 for counseling or for postpartum treatment.
22 And, again, I think it's a good
23 addition to this bill. I think it's the right
4139
1 thing to do.
2 But the second issue is where is
3 the $5 million? In my consultation with Senator
4 Hannon's staff, they said that the $5 million
5 has already been spent. It is already
6 encumbered under the state budget, and my
7 understanding, further, is that there is no
8 reappropriation. In the current draft of the
9 budget that sits approved by this house, there
10 is no reappropriation of $5 million for those
11 particular services.
12 Now, I see Senator Velella
13 looking around. I can easily stand corrected,
14 but my understanding is there is no additional
15 $5 million.
16 The second consideration about
17 finances is who is going to pay for the test?
18 My understanding is -- through Senator Hannon's
19 staff is that the federal government currently
20 pays for the cost of the test, and what happens
21 is the test is provided here in Albany. What
22 the federal government has told us -- and,
23 again, I owe this to Senator Hannon's staff.
4140
1 Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. But what I
2 was told was that if the test becomes unblinded,
3 the federal government will no longer pay for
4 the cost of the test. That would mean that the
5 cost of the test would now have to be paid for
6 by the State of New York.
7 I should add -- and I would have
8 to again look to Senator Velella for
9 clarification, but the test isn't really all
10 that expensive. I mean the test is probably a
11 couple of million dollars to actually conduct
12 the test. I don't know that, but it's not a
13 sizeable number, Senator.
14 And the issue when the first
15 draft of this bill came out with respect to
16 finances was, should we put all that money, that
17 $5 million, into treatment after, for the
18 babies, or should we put it in mandatory
19 counseling beforehand?
20 I have continued to favor and
21 with this amendment I favor that any money we're
22 going to spend under that portion of the primary
23 care focus in NYPHRM, which was a part of
4141
1 NYPHRM, that we focus our attention on mandatory
2 counseling because of the scientific as well as
3 disease transmission prevention benefit that we
4 get downstream. My position is, and I believe
5 this amendment addresses that, is that our money
6 should go to that effort.
7 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President.
8 When it's appropriate to speak on the amendment,
9 I will speak. There may be other people that
10 want to.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I do have
12 a list. There are eight -- nine people who are
13 wishing to speak. Chair would also note that
14 this debate started at 4:00 o'clock, so we're an
15 hour into the debate. I would hope that the
16 nine members would keep that in mind. There are
17 many of their colleagues who wish to speak on
18 the bill.
19 Next person on the list is
20 Senator Stavisky.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Paterson.
4142
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Don't we have
2 to move the amendment before we go through the
3 list?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We can do
5 it any way you'd like, Senator Paterson, with
6 the consent of the Majority Leader.
7 I thought that the agreement was
8 between the two of you that, in fact, we would
9 propose the amendment so that the entire issue
10 could be taken through the course of the
11 afternoon, so that the debate could be raging on
12 both of them, not necessarily on the amendment
13 or on the original bill.
14 Now, if your understanding was
15 different than that, please correct me. But the
16 chair would simply say I would entertain
17 discussion on both the amendments and the bill
18 in accordance with the list of people that we
19 have in that order.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: All right.
21 Well, in that case, Mr. President, I yield to
22 Senator Stavisky.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4143
1 Stavisky, on the bill or the amendment.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: I learned my
3 lesson about an hour ago. Don't be a nice guy
4 when you are asked to yield the floor, because I
5 was the first one on that list and suddenly a
6 whole series of people got on the list ahead of
7 the first list that was prepared. So much for
8 that. I won't raise the issue again.
9 There were 278,000 live births in
10 New York State last year.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Stavisky, before you get into your point, may I
13 interrupt and recognize the Acting Majority
14 Leader for an announcement?
15 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr.
16 President. There will be an immediate meeting
17 of the Rules Committee.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
19 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
20 Committee in the conference room or the Majority
21 room, 332.
22 Thank you for your indulgence,
23 Senator Stavisky.
4144
1 Senator Stavisky.
2 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr.
3 President. We keep having announcements. We
4 might be able to hold the Senate session in the
5 telephone booth and all of us will fit in
6 there.
7 I think that in the discussion of
8 counseling, understand that last year alone,
9 there were 278,000 live births in New York
10 State, and I am not certain how effective
11 counseling would be and how much would be spent
12 on reaching the 278,000 people involved here.
13 Also, there is no mandatory
14 testing in the amendment. The amendment speaks
15 about mandatory counseling for those people who
16 agree to the test, and that approach has
17 unfortunately not succeeded thus far in
18 encouraging a lot of people to take the
19 voluntary test.
20 It seems to me that the issue
21 could be best handled if we were to put aside
22 the names of the sponsors and have something
23 which would call for mandatory testing of the
4145
1 babies which is the present law coupled with
2 counseling of mothers in the prenatal stage; and
3 in that way, the best of both worlds would
4 perhaps be accomplished.
5 We have not answered the question
6 as to why in the absence of a cure for AIDS we
7 are prepared to spend money, and I believe we
8 should, for research, counseling and treatment
9 of those people who do have AIDS, and we are not
10 prepared to give the same protection and
11 guarantee for babies who can not speak for
12 themselves, and I think that that is a fallacy
13 in the objections to this original bill
14 introduced by Senator Velella and Assemblywoman
15 Nettie Mayersohn.
16 If you want to merge the two
17 bills in a single piece of legislation, I would
18 gladly support the merger and, in fact, proposed
19 an amendment to the bill that was on the floor
20 in the Legislature, in the Senate, on the last
21 night to accomplish that, but it was never
22 called. We can not deny on the basis of age
23 resources, research, treatment or assistance, to
4146
1 anyone in New York State who is at risk. It is
2 unconscionable to deny to children, to babies,
3 strategies that might prolong their lives and
4 might have the advantage of enabling them to
5 live long enough in order to be saved from
6 death.
7 We presently mandate testing of
8 all babies in hospitals. That's not a new
9 mandate. That is the existing law. Why should
10 we not tell the mothers who have a right to know
11 that the baby who has already been tested
12 pursuant to existing law has shown HIV positive
13 in that currently mandated test? If you can
14 answer that question, then I believe the
15 Velella-Mayersohn bill should be defeated, but I
16 see no rational answer to that question. A
17 mother has a right to know. The baby can not
18 get up there and say, "I want you to protect
19 me." If the baby lives long enough, maybe the
20 baby will be able to make that statement.
21 It is our hope that perhaps by
22 suggesting -- not compelling -- suggesting that
23 mothers whose babies have tested HIV positive
4147
1 should not continue breast feeding, and there is
2 nothing written in stone that the results of the
3 test have to take a full month before the
4 results are made known to the mother. That's
5 what the basic bill is about.
6 What you would do in substituting
7 the amendment, Senator Dollinger, is to
8 eviscerate that protection which would indicate
9 not in a blind test but in a revealed result
10 only to the mother or the guardian, not
11 circulated anywhere else, what has happened with
12 that test; otherwise, why spend the money for
13 the testing if you are not going to share the
14 results with anybody, particularly the mother of
15 that infant.
16 It is sometimes politically
17 correct to take certain stands, and I suspect
18 that political correctness is behind the
19 opposition to the Mayersohn-Velella bill.
20 Political correctness that suggests that we must
21 not tinker with the confidentiality. Nobody
22 wants to tinker with the confidentiality, but a
23 mother has a right to know, and a mother has a
4148
1 right to make an informed decision, not a
2 decision in the dark.
3 We don't have a cure, a
4 definitive cure for AIDS. Does that mean we
5 should spend no more money in the State of New
6 York in order to produce a cure for everybody?
7 Nobody is suggesting that we cut off funds for
8 AIDS research and treatment to adults. Why are
9 we denying the very same guarantee to an infant
10 who can not advocate the cause for himself or
11 herself.
12 I think that we are sometimes
13 blinded by the ideological cross-currents in
14 this state. There are groups that are
15 advocating defeat of the Mayersohn-Velella bill
16 because they fear it would compromise the
17 confidentiality. Make that confidentiality as
18 strict as possible, because I'm with you on that
19 issue. It's nobody else's business, but it is
20 the business of the mother and the doctor, both
21 of whom should be informed if the baby has
22 tested HIV positive and if the resumption of
23 breast feeding would further endanger the safety
4149
1 and life of that child, then caution the mother,
2 counsel the mother. I'm using your own
3 language, that that might be the best way to
4 deal with the situation.
5 I hope that the advocates on both
6 sides of this issue will come together on an
7 agreement on prenatal counseling and for release
8 of the information on a mandatory testing of a
9 baby which is the law right now. Come together
10 with a combined piece of legislation. Let it be
11 known as the Silver-Velella-Mayersohn-and-Tully
12 bill, and those of us who want to join in it,
13 I'm sure will be given the courtesy of
14 co-sponsorship.
15 But let it not be an ideological
16 bloodbath, which is what I fear is occurring,
17 and nobody has mentioned beneath the surface
18 there are groups that are advocating defeat of
19 the bill before us because they are fearful of
20 compromising confidentiality on other issues.
21 Do not compromise
22 confidentiality. Encourage counseling of the
23 mother, and reveal the results of the baby AIDS
4150
1 test to those who have a right to know, the
2 mother and the physician or the guardian. I
3 hope, for the time being, your amendment which
4 wipes out the guts of the Velella-Mayersohn bill
5 -- I hope for the time being your amendment is
6 defeated so that we can get a comprehensive
7 amendment that would deal with both sides of the
8 issue; therefore, I'm asking for the defeat of
9 the amendment, and I'm supporting the passage of
10 the original bill.
11 Thank you.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair
13 would recognize Senator Marcellino.
14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
15 President. I would like to thank Senator
16 Velella and Assemblywoman Mayersohn and Senator
17 Paterson for their concerns; Senator Paterson,
18 who held a hearing in his office which I was
19 privileged to attend on my -- he was absolutely
20 correct -- on my third day here, and these two
21 people for their courage in the face of some
22 staunch opposition to bringing this bill to the
23 floor of this chamber.
4151
1 Since I have been a Senator, the
2 level of this debate on this particular measure
3 I think is probably the highest I have heard,
4 and I truly believe that's one of the reasons I
5 came here and that's one of the reasons I'm
6 enjoying today. I think I've enjoyed today more
7 than just about any time in the past two and a
8 half weeks, so I thank you for that.
9 There is an old saying,
10 "Ignorance is bliss." In this case I think
11 ignorance is death. We can't afford it. And I
12 would urge Senator Dollinger, whose amendment I
13 believe is well-intentioned, to withdraw it
14 rather than have this chamber have to vote it
15 down, because I think, as Senator Stavisky just
16 said, it does take the guts from this particular
17 bill, and I think this is a good bill.
18 We have to do what we have to
19 do. The mother is entitled to know. And I
20 agree -- confidentiality. Maintain it. Hold
21 it. The mother, the doctor, they should be the
22 ones to determine that. But if she never is
23 told, she will never know; and the nature of the
4152
1 person who is at risk is that they will never
2 inquire, and they will never take an opportunity
3 to be part of the situation, and they will never
4 take the opportunity to get the proper
5 counseling. You are not going to get them in
6 unless you have the information; and if you have
7 it, reveal it to that person so that she can be
8 informed and make a decision that will perhaps
9 save her life; and if she's breast feeding, she
10 will stop. I mean it certainly is known that if
11 she's been breast feeding up to a period of time
12 and she's told she has HIV, she will stop. She
13 should be advised to stop. So what if it's
14 three weeks? What if she breast feeds for the
15 next six months? Isn't that worse?
16 The idea is to give the informed
17 decision-making authority and power to the
18 person who should be making the decision, the
19 mother. This bill provides that. I think this
20 bill will ultimately save lives and ultimately
21 save money and prevent an awful lot of human
22 tragedy.
23 So I urge you, sir, please
4153
1 withdraw that amendment because I don't think
2 it's going to work out, and I really do think it
3 will do more harm than good, and I would join in
4 Senator Stavisky's call that we should perhaps
5 put these two things together in a more
6 appropriate measure and recombine it and do the
7 right thing with respect to counseling because I
8 do think that's a most important part of it.
9 I also suggest defeat of the
10 amendment if it's not withdrawn and support for
11 the bill.
12 Thank you, Mr. President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
14 recognizes Senator Rath.
15 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Mr.
16 Chairman. Mr. President. I am speaking on the
17 full bill combined with the amendment. Last
18 year, as a freshman here, this was probably one
19 of the most defining moments in my first year in
20 the Senate as a co-sponsor of the Tully bill and
21 not on the Velella-Mayersohn bill, which I would
22 have been on, but somehow I wasn't and felt
23 badly that I wasn't. I was on the other bill.
4154
1 And I, in the late -- in the dark
2 of the night as this issue was coming down, I
3 got off of one bill and threw my support to the
4 other bill because, as it was explained then and
5 as the issue still is before us, I don't think
6 we have an awful lot of choice when it comes
7 down to common sense.
8 I won't belabor the issue.
9 Senator Marcellino has done a good job of
10 speaking of it. Senator Stavisky has come to
11 the same point, Senator Maltese much of the same
12 point. We don't have a choice right now. But
13 in a perfect world, yes, we should have
14 counseling early.
15 Yes, in a perfect world, I would
16 think that if there were dollars that everyone
17 who was pregnant should be tested early. I
18 don't think we're going to see that perfect
19 world very soon. Yet the point Senator
20 Marcellino made was my point, when I knew I
21 needed to stand up and speak on the bill. If a
22 woman is breast feeding for one, two, or three
23 weeks, I think that the numbers and the
4155
1 percentages that we saw at the press conference
2 that Senator Velella and Assemblywoman Mayersohn
3 held several weeks ago, the doctors reported
4 that there are dramatic percentage drops in the
5 possibility of the child actually coming to
6 full-blown HIV if the mother stops breast
7 feeding or, indeed, never breast feeds in the
8 first point.
9 I thought someone made the point
10 earlier, Well, couldn't we speed up these tests
11 that are done on the newborn so that we can know
12 within two or three days or four days? Then,
13 maybe the mothers would never breast feed. I
14 think maybe three or four or five days maybe
15 could go by before people had to make a
16 committed decision.
17 And so I think we have a lot of
18 things at play here, the most important of which
19 -- and back to Senator Paterson's early
20 comments -- everyone wants to support more
21 children being saved. I mean that's the bottom
22 line, that we want to save the lives of
23 children. I believe that the Velella-Mayersohn
4156
1 bill does that presently, and we need to be
2 working towards more enlightened legislation to
3 make sure that more babies will be saved and
4 that more mothers, hopefully, as the scientific
5 world moves along, will also be able to be saved
6 when some sort of a solution is found to this
7 horrible circumstance.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
9 recognizes Senator Mendez.
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: On the
11 amendment? I will -
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Either
13 one, Senator.
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Is this on the
15 amendment?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Either on
17 the amendment or on the bill.
18 SENATOR MENDEZ: Okay. We're
19 dealing here today with a very simple bill.
20 That bill states that whenever a newborn child
21 is born and tested as they are being tested
22 today, the mother should be advised. We choose
23 -- we choose here in New York State to insure
4157
1 that if an adult is given a transfusion and has
2 reason to believe that that blood was -- had the
3 HIV virus, she or he had the option, that adult
4 must be told and is told that the blood
5 transfusion gave her or him the dreaded
6 disease. We are dealing here with cases of
7 doctors in New York State. They go right away
8 in a minute whenever they find out that an adult
9 man or woman is found infected with the HIV,
10 then that doctor calls the lover of that man or
11 woman and advises her or him that the lover is
12 infected with HIV. Again we're talking here
13 about adults.
14 And the reason behind all the
15 opposition to this bill stems from nothing else
16 like from a paranoia that the issue of
17 confidentiality will be, in fact, violated. So
18 then, some people take the attitude, because
19 that child is going to die anyhow, we don't have
20 to do anything for that child.
21 I take a different view. I think
22 it's -- to expect these women, 54 percent of
23 women that are giving birth nowadays to HIV
4158
1 children are African-Americans, about 30 or up
2 percentage are Hispanics. Some Puerto Ricans
3 must be included there. Many of these women are
4 marginal women, women who don't even know -- who
5 don't even know what safe sex is, either because
6 some of them to support a drug habit have become
7 prostitutes or because, if they are just poor
8 and the information hasn't gotten to them, they
9 submit to the lover or their husbands who happen
10 to be infected and then they become infected and
11 pregnant. So these women will not be the kind
12 that will be going for counseling because she
13 will not be suspecting in the least that, in
14 fact, she is infected by that virus.
15 There are a lot of prominent
16 doctors nowadays that they are advising -- very
17 seriously advising the need to unblind these
18 tests. We all should keep in mind that there is
19 not one single human right that is absolute in
20 nature. We all believe in human rights and the
21 freedom of each individual but we should be very
22 careful and think that my right -- when my right
23 stops here because your right, Mr. President,
4159
1 starts where mine leaves.
2 So to be so blinded by feelings
3 of paranoia to the point of thinking we don't
4 have to do anything for those babies because
5 they are going to die anyhow, I think that is a
6 very callous attitude to take.
7 With this bill, the pediatricians
8 will be able to take care of the medical needs
9 of the child because in pediatric medicine new
10 things have come about. Because of this bill,
11 the mother because she just realizes that her
12 child might be affected with the HIV virus or
13 has the antibody, she might be more prone to go
14 and seek help, and there is help out there.
15 So I really believe that we here
16 all want the best and we want to legislate
17 legislation that is fair, legislation that is
18 just, legislation that is compassionate. So
19 this is the time that we have to really forget
20 about private interests and think about a group
21 of women in New York State who are marginized
22 and have been marginized for many, many years
23 and that, through this bill, we will be able to
4160
1 do something for her and her child.
2 I will be voting yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
4 recognizes Senator Espada on the bill or on the
5 amendment.
6 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr.
7 President. With your permission on both, but
8 will my friend and colleague from the Bronx
9 yield to a question? Senator Velella?
10 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly.
11 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you. The
12 question is, the issue of universal counseling
13 and testing is not something that you are
14 adverse to, is it?
15 SENATOR VELELLA: No. Matter of
16 fact, I'm glad that you are asking that because
17 I just want to clear up something. The bill
18 that Senator Dollinger is offering as a
19 substitute to my bill was on our Third Reading
20 Calendar at the end of session last year. It
21 was not voted on. One which was very much
22 similar to it was voted on earlier in the
23 session, the Tully bill. That was pretty much
4161
1 aligned with this. This was a modified bill
2 that had some technical changes to it.
3 But I voted for that bill then.
4 If Senator Dollinger -- and I sometimes what to
5 rethink my position, because I agree with him on
6 this, and he may want to change his. If he were
7 offering this at the right time and the right
8 place, I would be supporting it. Unfortunately,
9 he's got his times crossed again and it's not
10 going to work today.
11 But this bill is something that
12 is being worked on. I have had conversations
13 with the new Health Commissioner who wants to do
14 a testing program and a mandatory counseling
15 program. Senator Tully continues to be deeply
16 involved in bringing this bill out, polishing it
17 up, making it a better bill. Senator Hannon is
18 working on it. There are a battery of people
19 working on it and I assume over in the Assembly
20 also.
21 We will see a better counseling
22 bill this session, hopefully we will, regarding
23 HIV virus or a bill that will give us the
4162
1 opportunity to vote for that, but that may be a
2 side bill. We will see a counseling bill like
3 this, and, yes, I do support the concept. It is
4 just where this bill fails and where the people
5 fall through the cracks that this bill will be
6 -- when they don't get the counseling and they
7 don't realize the necessity to be tested. My
8 bill will be the safety net to catch them and
9 save those lives that otherwise will fall
10 through the cracks with this bill.
11 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you,
12 Senator Velella. On the bill, Mr. President. I
13 have spent better than seventeen years directly
14 involved in the provision of primary care
15 services to a community that is medically
16 indigent and that is, by many, many standards in
17 terms of its infant mortality rate, Third World
18 in terms of the quality of that service and, of
19 course, other services as well.
20 Since 1987, about 12,000 women
21 have given -- 12,000 HIV-positive women have
22 given birth in this state. Six thousand of them
23 have been undiagnosed. This bill will not
4163
1 remedy the flawed health care system that I have
2 served in for seventeen years. This bill will
3 not improve access to primary prenatal care
4 services that I referenced earlier. In fact,
5 one of my political problems with this bill is
6 not where the various interest groups sit on one
7 side or the other of this issue. My political
8 problem is with respect to the inherent
9 contradictions and hypocrisy of a political
10 system, whether it's Democrat or Republican in
11 nature, that would at once vote to have unwed
12 mothers and their babies not receive Medicaid or
13 cash -- public assistance cash benefits -- we
14 will at once do that, but also sing the praises
15 of, "My dear baby, let's be kind to babies; we
16 all love babies," when in fact we are so very,
17 very bad to them and their mothers at times when
18 we can be also supportive.
19 And so it is to that body
20 politic, it is to that hypocrisy that I have a
21 great deal of problems. But certainly in terms
22 of the issue of those 6,000 undiagnosed women
23 losing in the cruelest, worst scenario some
4164
1 privacy rights, while it is a very difficult
2 decision, while in medicine we believe in
3 informed consent, when you weigh in the balance,
4 you have to come out on the side of the child,
5 and I think most mothers and we as a society
6 must do that.
7 The political correctness issue
8 has been dealt with, and I just for a moment
9 would like to touch on the fact that, you know,
10 discrimination is not a political correctness
11 issue. Persecution of people with HIV and AIDS
12 is not an issue of political correctness, and
13 the alienation that comes with being diagnosed.
14 Many of my doctors that worked for me are afraid
15 to deal with someone who has the HIV virus.
16 When you go to the hospital to visit someone,
17 people will whisper in the corridors saying,
18 "Room X Y Z, be careful, there is an HIV
19 positive individual there." So we are not only
20 rampant with infection and with ignorance, but
21 we also have these discriminatory policies that
22 are in effect, de facto, even with very strong
23 confidentiality laws.
4165
1 So I don't take very lightly this
2 whole issue of political correctness and the
3 political interests that are fearful of losing
4 some of their rights and being persecuted. I
5 think that they have a right to that; and, quite
6 honestly, I think they have reason for concern
7 not so much because of this bill but because of
8 the attitudes in society that we can't just turn
9 our back on after passage of this bill and
10 others like it that will come before us.
11 So this bill, while it unblinds,
12 it doesn't unbungle things a bit, and it
13 certainly doesn't provide for a clear vision of
14 the problem. But on its face, it is the right
15 thing to do, and I would vote in favor of it.
16 Thank you.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Maltese.
19 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President.
20 Earlier, it was said by one of my distinguished
21 Senate colleagues that since he came here, a
22 relatively short time ago, he was impressed by
23 the level of debate here on this particular
4166
1 legislation. I have been here somewhat more
2 than six years and I would like to say that I
3 firmly believe that this is if not the most
4 important legislation that we have discussed
5 than certainly one of the most important pieces
6 of legislation.
7 This should be the most basic
8 decision for all of us here. This is a decision
9 that can only be argued against on extraneous,
10 superficial grounds. We here in this house hear
11 very often about hypocrisy when we're discussing
12 abortion or death penalties or matters of
13 conscience. This is definitely a matter of
14 utmost concern and certainly a matter of
15 conscience. This is talking not about very
16 ambiguous medical terminology or methods of
17 medical treatment going deeply into various and
18 varied methods of treatment and the efficacy of
19 those methods of treatment. This is talking
20 about saving babies lives. This speaks of
21 making available to mothers, those most vitally
22 concerned with the welfare of their children,
23 and their physicians, the results of a test that
4167
1 has been mandated, a blind test that has been
2 mandated; and we in the Legislature are standing
3 in the way of making this test result available
4 to the mother and those most vitally concerned.
5 A few weeks ago, I was at a press
6 conference with a mother who had not been aware
7 that she had transmitted AIDS to her infant and
8 imagine the horror, the dismay of this mother to
9 know that had she been advised earlier she could
10 have, by voluntarily ceasing breast feeding,
11 improved the chances of her child and -- nay,
12 not improved, made almost impossible the
13 transmission of AIDS to her child.
14 We have facts and figures that
15 are undisputed in this house or anywhere else
16 that 75 percent of the children, the newborns of
17 these infected mothers, will not contract the
18 disease if and only if their mothers do not
19 continue breast feeding over a protracted period
20 of time. My good colleague, Senator Paterson,
21 speaks of early detection, delay in detection.
22 The truth of the matter is that as expeditiously
23 as we can get that information to the parents,
4168
1 we should do so; and those and the parent, the
2 mother, should immediately cease breast
3 feeding. But the truth of the matter is that
4 many of those mothers are not aware that they
5 can even transmit or continue to transmit this
6 deadly virus to their infant.
7 So we are faced with parents,
8 mothers, who not only must bear the burden of
9 knowing that they themselves are infected and
10 very, very likely to perish before their
11 children grow up, but they also must face the
12 horror of knowing that they may have by breast
13 feeding, perhaps an act that is synonymous with
14 mother love, that they are sentencing their
15 children, giving their children a virtual death
16 penalty, a death verdict, transmitted by the
17 mother to her own newborn.
18 Mr. President. The logic of this
19 bill speaks for itself, but I suggest to any who
20 would oppose this bill visit a hospital in
21 Queens as I have, Elmhurst General Hospital, in
22 connection with a foster grandparent program,
23 speak to volunteers as I have, like a lady from
4169
1 Ridgewood, Clara Mannheim. They volunteer as
2 foster grandparents, and that sounds very, very
3 salutary. It sounds like a wonderful program,
4 but it's more than that. I take my hat off and
5 I admire every foster grandparent that goes to
6 that hospital annex, because what do these
7 mostly ladies do?
8 They provide love and affection
9 to newborn infants who are absolutely,
10 positively doomed to perish within a short
11 period of time. These children are AIDS babies
12 who either have been abandoned by their parents
13 or their parents or their mother has died either
14 in childbirth or shortly thereafter. Most of
15 them are born with terrible afflictions, blind,
16 misformed, without arms, without legs, and they
17 don't have mother love, and what these grand
18 parents do is they hold them, they nurture them,
19 they caress them for their relatively short
20 lives, which in most cases is for a relatively
21 few months. They give them mother love. That's
22 what they give them, and then, when the child
23 dies as most of them do, they go on to another
4170
1 child and do the same thing.
2 And no person, no human being
3 could go there and not be emotionally affected
4 to watch these foster grandmothers, in most
5 cases, as I say, although there are some men
6 that are hardy enough to do it, because it is
7 very, very difficult to do. Picture, if you
8 will, a foster grandparent holding a little
9 infant, lavishing affection on it, perhaps
10 blind, misformed, and tears running down her
11 eyes at the very same time she's doing it
12 because she's knows that this child is going to
13 perish in a relatively short time; and despite
14 the disadvantages, the emotional heartache of
15 fastening on to one child, most of these foster
16 parents stay with one child most of the time
17 until the child dies.
18 Now, these are AIDS babies.
19 These are children doomed to die, but there are
20 other babies that we can prevent dying by our
21 actions in this house and in the Assembly.
22 Mr. President. There is
23 absolutely no doubt that this legislation will
4171
1 save lives, will save newborn lives and save the
2 destruction of lives for parents, mothers and
3 fathers, who unintentionally doom their own
4 children to a certain death. We must act. I
5 urge the passage of this legislation and I urge
6 it as expeditiously as possible.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
8 recognizes Senator Abate on the bill or the
9 amendment.
10 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, on the bill
11 and the amendment. If I had more time, Senator
12 Velella, I would like to ask you a number of
13 questions, but I know that the time is limited,
14 and it is very difficult, and I have thought a
15 long time about not only what my position on the
16 bill is but how I would characterize my
17 position, and this debate is very similar to the
18 death penalty. Many people feel a great deal of
19 anger, a great deal of emotion around this
20 issue, and it's an issue that is very popular
21 among many people.
22 So what I'm trying to do is cause
23 a debate that is thoughtful to reach the
4172
1 rational side of people's minds, and maybe if
2 you would take a moment just to listen to how I
3 progressed to my position.
4 When I first heard about this
5 bill a year ago, my initial reaction was, "Of
6 course, I favor it." I was a mother and I
7 viewed myself all the women in the world would
8 react the way I react as a mother. There is
9 little I wouldn't do to protect my child; and in
10 the course of my making my decision, I was told
11 if you are pro children, if you care about women
12 and children getting into treatment, that you
13 must favor this bill. If you don't favor the
14 bill, you are un-American.
15 What I have heard today, which is
16 interesting, if I oppose the bill and these are
17 the words from the floor, I must be irrational.
18 I'm superficial. I'm stupid, uncaring,
19 paranoid. I'm politically correct.
20 Although I don't necessarily
21 think I'm politically correct. I think if I
22 oppose this bill, I'm unpopular; and through the
23 course of this debate, until I reached the
4173
1 decision, I called a number of medical
2 providers. I called the Commissioner of Health,
3 and I said I need to understand. Am I looking
4 at this bill simplistically? Is this bill more
5 complicated? Is the rhetoric true?
6 And I spent a lot of time talking
7 to medical providers, the Commissioner of
8 Health, and the majority -- and we can debate
9 how many people are on either side, but it's
10 clear the majority of people who are in the
11 business of caring and providing medical
12 services are opposed to this bill.
13 So then I had to ask, "Why?" I
14 mean I'm just -- I was at that time Commissioner
15 of Correction. I had no idea other than the
16 limited health services we provided at
17 Correction. I had to understand why these
18 individuals were firmly against the bill.
19 And I now understand at least in
20 my mind more clearly. We all have the same
21 goals, whether you are for or against the bill.
22 We all support that women and children need to
23 be tested. We want them to be tested and
4174
1 encourage them to be tested, and we want them to
2 be in treatment and we want to do everything
3 possible to prevent the transmission of AIDS.
4 What we disagree about here today
5 is how do we get women tested? How do we get
6 them information that they can act upon in a
7 rational way, and how can we prevent
8 unnecessarily the transmission of AIDS?
9 So I have now decided that I can
10 not support the bill, and I think the reason why
11 it's so confusing is that we say that women who
12 have the right to know should know. Well, right
13 now, women who want to know know. Let me repeat
14 that again. Women who want to know about the
15 condition of themselves or their babies can get
16 that information. Women who want to be tested
17 today can be tested. Let me repeat that again.
18 Women who want to be tested can be tested
19 today. That's very important.
20 So I believe that mandatory
21 counseling makes sense because it's about
22 informed consent. It's about developing a
23 relationship between the provider and the
4175
1 patient that's cooperative, and I believe when
2 women are adequately informed they will do the
3 right thing. So why are we doing mandatory
4 testing? Because, let's get in the real world,
5 there are a subset of women that don't want to
6 know or don't understand the health care system,
7 and these are women who are isolated,
8 alienated. Many of them, when they leave the
9 hospital, abandon their children, are substance
10 abusers.
11 So mandatory testing? Why do we
12 think if we test the women who now know that
13 they can be tested can get this information, why
14 do we think mandatory testing will bring this
15 subset of women closer to treatment and that
16 they care for their babies? I don't think
17 that's the reality.
18 I think the profile of the woman
19 we are trying to reach through mandatory testing
20 will benefit the most through mandatory
21 counseling. I can only draw upon my own
22 experience, and I think all of us reach
23 decisions based on those experiences. We ran a
4176
1 program at Rikers Island. It was a nursery
2 program, and I was overwhelmed, and these were a
3 subset of women who could keep their babies
4 while they are in jail, and I looked at the
5 women and how they cared their children. They
6 spent -- up all night playing and reading to
7 their children and nurturing their child, and I
8 would say to the women, "It's remarkable how you
9 care about your child; it must be your first
10 child." And time and time again, the women
11 would say, "No, this is not my first child.
12 It's my seventh child and this is the first time
13 because I went to Rikers Island and I got into
14 this program, I learned about nutrition, I
15 learned about health care, I learned about
16 AIDS. I've never gone to a doctor before. I
17 never went to primary care. I never went to a
18 dentist."
19 I heard that from hundreds and
20 hundreds of women. So the profile of the woman
21 we're talking about -- and I say get into the
22 real world. It's not Senator Rath, it's not
23 Senator Mendez, it's not Senator Smith, it's not
4177
1 Senator Abate. These are women that need to be
2 reached through prenatal care and education, and
3 there is no evidence that shows me. If there
4 was evidence that could show to me that we could
5 draw these women into the health care system
6 through mandatory testing, I would support this
7 bill.
8 Unfortunately, this bill feels
9 good. It sounds good. I don't believe
10 notification should replace prevention and
11 treatment. This is too little, too late, and I
12 don't believe notification is health care.
13 Health care is a program, is a policy. It's a
14 process that brings women closer to treatment,
15 brings their children into treatment, gives them
16 the capacity to care for their child under the
17 umbrella of a health care system.
18 This bill does not do that; and
19 for these reasons I can not support it. I think
20 we must again reexamine mandatory counseling.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
22 recognizes Senator Gold on the bill and on the
23 amendment.
4178
1 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very
2 much. Senator Abate, I will concede to you that
3 I didn't hear every remark that was made, and I
4 was a little shocked to hear that you could
5 interpret remarks made on this floor as
6 suggesting that you were dumb or superficial or
7 whatever. I think if those remarks were made I
8 think we all owe you an apology or if people
9 should feel that way.
10 I think your remarks, which I
11 don't happen to agree with your conclusion, are
12 as sincere as the remarks of anybody else, and
13 this is a debate that's been characterized in
14 many different ways. I can not believe that
15 anybody that stands up today has anything but
16 sincere feelings.
17 When you say the majority in this
18 business are opposed, Senator, I didn't do that
19 kind of a count, but I can imagine a lot of
20 reasons why you asked why. I can think of a lot
21 of reasons why, and I say to myself, "Out there
22 today is the kind of dogma that kills." People
23 get worried about certain kinds of principles,
4179
1 and I always say to myself, "You ought to come
2 out with the right result." If you are
3 following a set of guidelines or rules and it
4 leads you to the wrong result, I don't know the
5 purpose of these rules and guidelines; and I
6 appreciate confidentiality and I respect the
7 medical profession.
8 But if concepts of
9 confidentiality tell you that as between a woman
10 and her natural instincts to want to take care
11 of her child we have to come in between that and
12 for some reason that makes very good logic the
13 child dies, I don't understand the logic -- I
14 don't understand it. You say that women who
15 want to know know. Senator, you are a good
16 lawyer. We have a lot of situations in the law
17 where guardians are appointed for children not
18 because their parents don't love them but
19 because something happens and we say, "Well, in
20 this case, why don't we have a guardian for the
21 kids."
22 I don't know, maybe if this
23 doesn't become the law, we're going to have to
4180
1 start setting up guardians before kids are born,
2 and I can imagine that when we start getting
3 into that, the abortion questions and
4 nonabortion questions, what that's all going to
5 raise.
6 But a woman doesn't want to know.
7 A woman is scared. There are women, Senator
8 Abate, who believe in the concept of natural
9 childbirth, and there are women who say, "I want
10 to have a kid in the worst way; I want them to
11 take me and knock me out and tell me in an hour
12 or two after that I got a boy or a girl. I
13 don't know want to know."
14 Women are entitled not to want to
15 know about a lot of things, but what we're
16 talking about is the child. The child that is
17 born and is a human being at some point.
18 Now, I don't disagree with the
19 concept of counseling. I think education is
20 terrific, and I'm not going to repeat everything
21 Senator Stavisky said because I thought today
22 was brilliant. He really laid it out
23 beautifully.
4181
1 We are not against counseling;
2 and if you can talk people into doing the right
3 thing and learning, that's fine. I don't have
4 any problem with that.
5 And when it comes to AIDS
6 funding, I think we're all crazy, all of us are
7 crazy. We don't put enough money into it, and
8 you may not want to put money into it because
9 you think it's one group or another in society
10 and to heck with them. I think we're all nuts
11 to have this kind of an epidemic and not be
12 putting serious money into it.
13 But when all is said and done,
14 when all is said and done, there is one question
15 that just can't be answered; and that is, you
16 have information that can help a child to live
17 and you don't want to use it in that way, and I
18 have tried to find some logic for that, and,
19 believe me, I don't want to do the wrong thing
20 legislatively any more than anyone here does,
21 and we are going to cast votes today, 61 if
22 we're all here, and not one of those votes is
23 going to be cast by a Senator who wants to do
4182
1 the wrong thing. We're all trying to do the
2 right thing.
3 So I say to myself, you know,
4 there ought to be counseling, and we ought to be
5 reaching out, and I agree with Senator Abate.
6 It's not this particular community. It may be
7 that community over there. Well, let's reach
8 in. Let's give them everything, and now we have
9 done everything. We have done mandatory
10 counseling; we've done everything; and then some
11 little tyke gets born and testing shows that HIV
12 is there, and we are going to say, "Tough", "Too
13 bad", "Not our fault; the mandatory testing was
14 there. Your mother didn't want to know. Your
15 mother doesn't want to know today." I can't
16 understand that. I can't understand it, and I
17 don't believe it.
18 I don't believe that if a woman,
19 a decent, loving mother believed that I had
20 information which might hurt her but could help
21 her kid, I can't believe she wouldn't want to
22 know that information. But we're being told you
23 can't give it.
4183
1 And I tell you, Senator
2 Dollinger, I don't think your idea is a bad one,
3 and I won't repeat what was said over here and
4 what was said from the gentleman from Nassau
5 County. If we had both bills, I could vote for
6 both bills. But I'm not going to take this
7 opportunity and sabotage it, because this is
8 just too important.
9 As a matter of fact it's
10 interesting. We live in a world where we get a
11 new education every day. The way we treat our
12 staffs, sexual harassment, et cetera, et cetera,
13 it's all new sensitivities. We're all very
14 sensitive now to things called child abuse.
15 What could be more abusive to a child than for a
16 parent to ignore a health problem. We would all
17 go bananas if we knew -- if a parent knew that a
18 child was laying in the other room with fever
19 and the parent went out to a card game.
20 Well, why isn't it child abuse,
21 philosophically, for us to deny legislation
22 which says if you have information which can
23 help a child to live you pass it on to the
4184
1 parent. You don't take an ad in the New York
2 Times. You certainly don't take it in the
3 Post. You don't make it public but as between
4 the parent and the child, in a sensitive way.
5 You know, there used to be that
6 old joke, and the bottom line of it is you'd
7 walk into the ward, there's five women, and
8 you'd say, "Who here -- raise your hand if you
9 have a child that doesn't have AIDS. Un-uh, not
10 so fast, Mrs. Brown."
11 I mean I'm not talking about
12 being a bull in a china shop. We're talking
13 about sensitivity. But how you as a doctor,
14 nurse, lab technician, have in your possession
15 information which if it was transmitted to a
16 mother -- and this is a real case -- these
17 aren't statistics. This isn't philosophy, deep
18 philosophy. This is the real world. You've got
19 information in your hand; and if I give it, I
20 may help. I think it may help. And if I don't
21 give it, I know it can't help. Maybe that kid
22 will get better, maybe that kid won't get
23 better. Maybe the mother will breast feed,
4185
1 maybe the mother won't.
2 But I have the shot. It's only a
3 shot at helping. How do you not take it? I
4 don't understand it. How do you not take it?
5 I respect the people who oppose
6 this bill. I respect their medical expertise.
7 I respect their right to come to a conclusion,
8 and they may be as intelligent or more
9 intelligent as the people who are in favor of
10 the bill. I don't think that's the issue. I
11 think when all is said and done, I go back to a
12 case I had as a young lawyer and the courts
13 ruled a certain way. It was against me, and I
14 took it on appeal, and the judge in that case,
15 the Appellate Judge said, "You can look at all
16 the technicalities you want in the law, but you
17 can't find a technicality that justifies doing
18 the wrong thing." Thank God I was on the right
19 side. It got reversed.
20 But you can't do it today,
21 either. How do you look at a technicality? How
22 do you look at a medical principle, and how do
23 you develop principles that lead you to the
4186
1 wrong conclusion, a conclusion that can
2 jeopardize a young baby?
3 So with my deepest respect -
4 deepest respect, sincerest respect for those
5 people who will disagree with me, I'm going to
6 cast a proud vote for this bill. I think that
7 Senator Velella has no problem handling himself,
8 but I think the toughest guy in town is Nettie
9 Mayersohn; and, thankfully, she's in a fight,
10 she sticks in the fight, and she took a lot of
11 abuse, and a lot of other people would have
12 quit. But if you know Nettie Mayersohn, you
13 know she doesn't quit; and if you know Guy
14 Velella, you know he doesn't quit.
15 And so we are on the floor today
16 with an opportunity to do simply a decent
17 thing. Is it the best thing, Senator
18 Dollinger? I don't know. Is it the only
19 thing? Probably not. But it's something that I
20 think will save lives, and I think that's enough
21 of a reason to vote for it.
22 Thank you.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4187
1 Oppenheimer.
2 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you,
3 Mr. President. I believe someone earlier -- one
4 of my colleagues -- said that -- something about
5 political correctness and the popularity of this
6 bill and this issue, and I look at the people
7 who are opposing mandatory disclosure, and I do
8 not think that these people are people that are
9 very, you know, involved with political
10 correctness. I don't think they are
11 particularly involved in civil liberties. You
12 know, names like the American College of
13 Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American
14 Medical Association, the New York State Nurses
15 Association, the American Public Health
16 Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics,
17 the National Association of Social Workers, you
18 know, these aren't people that I think care very
19 much except for public health and the health of
20 children and mothers, and I tell you the truth I
21 look to authorities when it comes to an issue
22 which I'm not particularly knowledgeable about,
23 and I think none of us in this chamber are
4188
1 anywhere as knowledgeable as these people I've
2 mentioned, and these are pretty much national
3 positions. Sometimes New York State positions,
4 but mostly national positions, and it looks to
5 me like just about every major medical provider
6 in the United States is opposed to this.
7 And I really don't have the kind
8 of information that they have. I know I believe
9 very strongly in the voluntary counseling and
10 testing. I think it is essential that there be
11 this counseling if we're going to have
12 behavioral changes and changes to health care
13 and nutritional care and education and
14 involvement with the baby; and these mothers,
15 for the most part, have not demonstrated, at
16 least the mothers that I believe we are talking
17 about, have not demonstrated interests in either
18 the health care, the nutritional care -- if they
19 had, I think they would have gotten involved in
20 the health care system well before this point
21 where we are dealing with a baby. They should
22 have been getting some kind of care prior, and
23 they would have probably asked before the baby
4189
1 was born to have themselves tested so that they
2 could take the best care possible of the baby.
3 I think if this -- the bill that
4 we call the Tully bill from last year, the
5 counseling bill, if that had come forth first, I
6 think many of us would have found it easier to
7 support this bill because then it would have
8 been those mothers that didn't avail themselves
9 of the counseling; and, therefore, those
10 reprobate mothers, "Well, this is what we have
11 to tell you at this point."
12 But I think we would have felt
13 much more comfortable with the Tully bill before
14 us, and we could say, yes, we support the
15 counseling. We support the advice that has to
16 go into changing behavioral attitudes and
17 methods and policies that just don't seem to be
18 apparent in most of the -- you know, the mothers
19 that we're going to be dealing with in this
20 issue.
21 I think the attention is taken
22 away from where the focus ought to be. The
23 focus ought to be to grab that mother and say,
4190
1 "You have to know about this. This is
2 mandatory counseling and this is what you have
3 to know and if you know this, then this is the
4 action you should take." I think it is really
5 too late to be dealing with the baby.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
7 would recognize Senator Paterson to close for
8 the Minority.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
10 President. Without Senator Velella's efforts,
11 we wouldn't be discussing this entire issue
12 today, so I again compliment him on the work
13 that he has done.
14 I heard in this discussion a lot
15 of conversation about confidentiality.
16 Confidentiality is not an issue in this
17 discussion because we as a society have already
18 addressed the issue of confidentiality because
19 there are seven diseases that we do require
20 mandatory testing and mandatory information that
21 is shared with those who are tested, with the
22 mothers of children who are born with these
23 different diseases.
4191
1 So this is not a question of
2 confidentiality. This is a question of
3 consent. If an individual does not want to be
4 informed on this particular issue, what we are
5 saying to them is that you have to be informed.
6 You must be informed because it is public policy
7 that the value of your knowing is more important
8 than your own privacy. That's something we can
9 do. We do that in the case of seven diseases
10 that Senator Mendez pointed out when she was
11 speaking.
12 But the problem with this
13 particular bill and the problem I have been
14 hearing in the discussion all afternoon is the
15 problem of treatment. At the point that we
16 become aware that an infant is tested positive
17 for the HIV virus, we have continued through
18 this discussion to ignore the fact that 70 to 85
19 percent of these infants will never contract the
20 AIDS disease. The overwhelming majority of them
21 will not develop AIDS.
22 So the discussion even of the
23 treatment is somewhat irrelevant because as we
4192
1 discussed earlier our federal regulations
2 through the CDC say, for instance, in the area
3 of treatment by the use of Bactrim we don't use
4 Bactrim until the pneumocystis PCP, the
5 pneumonia, kicks in.
6 So, now we have a mother and this
7 mother is informed that she has the HIV virus.
8 What are we going to do? What is our
9 treatment? What is anybody here suggesting be
10 our treatment at that point?
11 The reality is that in the case
12 of infants because there is not a static
13 situation, because there is a change in their
14 condition -- in four out of five cases, they are
15 not going to develop the virus -- we can't
16 treat them with any drugs. We used to treat
17 them with AZT. We lost all of those babies.
18 Nobody seems to want to address
19 that issue. But if we're really talking about
20 saving babies, we sure in the late '80s did not
21 do that. So, now, what is it that we as a
22 society gain from knowing that the women who
23 happen to test positive for the HIV virus and
4193
1 have infants who are testing positive, what is
2 the value of us knowing that information?
3 I don't -
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Mendez, why do you rise?
6 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will Senator
7 Paterson yield for a question.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Paterson, will you yield? Senator yields.
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: You are saying
11 that the percentage of the babies born, we never
12 develop what actually they are born with is the
13 mother's antibody, and what you are saying that
14 because of the -- of the possibility of infec
15 tion, assuming all those that just have the
16 antibodies of the disease and those are the
17 ones, 12 to 25 percent, that are born with the
18 AIDS virus. You're assuming that all of them
19 will be treated with one of those two drugs, so
20 if this bill doesn't go through then, and we
21 know that you don't want babies to be treated
22 with those drugs, then are you assuming -- are
23 you stating then, let those that are -- that are
4194
1 O.K., leave them like that, the other 12 or 25
2 percent let them die. They're going to die any
3 way. Is that the assumption?
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
5 Mendez, that's not an assumption. Those 12
6 percent of those babies are going to die unfor
7 tunately, and it's tragic to say this. They are
8 going to die at a point whether we treat them or
9 not.
10 I'm not saying we shouldn't treat
11 them, but I'm saying that they are going to
12 succumb; that is correct.
13 SENATOR MENDEZ: Then it becomes
14 -- there are new things that are being
15 developed that could, in fact, make it possible
16 for those children who have the virus to be
17 treated, so -- so I'm losing my trend of -- of
18 thought. They will be -- those will be -- those
19 will be treated.
20 Oh, I'm so sorry, I had a loss of
21 memory, because this -- this subject matter, in
22 my mind, I find that it is -
23 SENATOR PATERSON: You have a
4195
1 worthy assistant here, Senator Velella, and he's
2 saying in the future -
3 SENATOR MENDEZ: I want to
4 apologize. It's just that this issue is so
5 important to me.
6 You're also saying that these
7 women, who are marginal women, women who behave
8 differently than middle class women who,
9 whenever we have a little problem, any money so
10 they go to the therapist or they go to the
11 psychiatrist, to discuss their feelings about A
12 or B or C, but this, the experiential world of
13 these marginal women is totally different. So
14 if we think that we're going to have these women
15 go for counseling, when we -- when they don't
16 know what is at stake and they know that their
17 babies were born with the antibodies or the HIV
18 factor, then they will have a motivation to go
19 for help.
20 Then they will go; then we will
21 be able to help them first practice safe sex so
22 they wouldn't give the -- the horrible disease
23 to anybody else and, secondly, to understand the
4196
1 things that have to be done so that their babies
2 would have a better life. After all, with all
3 the things that have come about in the treatment
4 of AIDS, thank God, people are living longer.
5 Why can't a child that is born
6 with AIDS couldn't be helped to live longer?
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
8 President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Paterson.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: First of all,
12 what Senator Mendez is advocating is a mandatory
13 testing period, and that's what I'm afraid we
14 get to.
15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Mendez, why do you rise?
18 SENATOR MENDEZ: I think that I
19 haven't been very articulate, because I -- I
20 just heard my esteemed colleague saying that I
21 am advocating mandatory testing. I am not
22 advocating mandatory testing.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: O.K.
4197
1 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mandatory
2 testing exists. All these children are being
3 tested for the AIDS virus, all of them.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Mendez.
6 SENATOR MENDEZ: The only
7 question is, should the mother know or should we
8 as a public policy keep it away from her? In
9 doing so, we are condemning her to -- not to get
10 treatment for herself. In doing so we are
11 condemning that child to an earlier death, and I
12 think that that is a very callous public
13 policy.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Paterson to continue to close.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr.
17 President.
18 When we are advising people that
19 because they have the HIV virus that we now have
20 tested them and are now advising them to
21 practice safe sex, that is not related to what
22 this bill does. That's why I thought that that
23 was an argument for just general mandatory
4198
1 testing.
2 What this legislation does, and
3 even the sponsor of the legislation is not
4 advocating that there be any penalty that the
5 woman would suffer from learning that she has
6 the HIV virus. What I understood this
7 legislation to be serving was the children, so I
8 think we need to focus on the issue of the
9 children.
10 Now, the length of time that
11 people are living for those who have contracted
12 the HIV virus has never in any study been
13 related to the drugs that they receive. It's
14 been related really to the longevity of the
15 existence of the virus itself.
16 But on the issue of children,
17 what I'm saying is that we cannot in a sense
18 have a preventive hit in this particular
19 situation because since we don't know who the
20 young newborns are who are going to sero-convert
21 and who is not going to sero-convert because we
22 don't know who that is, we can't start entering
23 into the kinds of treatment.
4199
1 The preventive treatments have
2 been effective, and this goes back to a question
3 that Senator Maltese asked earlier, when the
4 woman is actually pregnant, but when the new
5 born actually comes onto the planet, past
6 experience treating the newborn with immuno
7 suppressant drugs has been fatal, and so when -
8 Senator Mendez?
9 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will the Senator
10 yield to just one more little question?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator,
12 do you yield to one little question?
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I -
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Senator does.
16 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator
17 Paterson, all the kids are born, 75 or 80
18 percent of them with the -- with the -- the
19 antibodies and 10 to 25 percent with the HI
20 virus. You are saying that nobody knows which
21 of those children have the virus versus which of
22 the children will -- you know, will grow out of
23 the virus. But what they do know is that
4200
1 children from three months to six months of age
2 -- of age, three months to six months, they
3 develop the pneumonia that is characteristic
4 ally associated with AIDS.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, those -
6 SENATOR MENDEZ: So that we have
7 between the three months and the six-month
8 period that will be the time in which the
9 children will develop either that kind of
10 pneumonia or any of those other parasitic
11 inflammations that take advantage of the
12 immunological, so that I felt that I had to
13 remind you of that.
14 You are so concerned that all the
15 kids are going to be given AZT or all the kids
16 are going to be given the other drug that you're
17 talking about, O.K.?
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr.
19 President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Paterson.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Mendez
23 has actually explained the reason why I contend
4201
1 that this bill should be defeated. She just
2 explained it herself. Maybe inadvertently, but
3 she just explained it.
4 She said at the time that the
5 children are born, no one knows the difference
6 between those who have the HIV virus and those
7 who are going to sero-convert but, as Senator
8 Mendez said, between three and six months those
9 that have the HIV virus will develop the
10 characteristic pneumonia. That's when you know
11 they have it. That's when you start treating
12 them with Bactrim, and that's why the test, the
13 mandatory nature of the test does not
14 necessarily need an absolute conclusion that the
15 mother be aware, because in the cases where the
16 young people, the newborns are going to go on
17 and develop the HIV virus, you will know that,
18 in the majority of cases from three to six
19 months, and that's exactly why at the time you
20 conduct a test for newborns, there is absolutely
21 no reason that the mothers being informed has to
22 be involved, and I thank Senator Mendez for
23 bringing that to our attention.
4202
1 Now, if I can close on the bill,
2 Mr. President, I would just like to say that one
3 of the reasons that I have a problem with this
4 bill is that we haven't discussed all day, just
5 involves the treatment itself and this is the
6 treatment not only for the children but for the
7 adults. 75 percent of the children won't have
8 the HIV virus, but one thing we haven't
9 discussed today, that means that three out of
10 every four people that have the HIV virus are
11 going to be the mothers, and there isn't
12 anything that I see, no funding, no increase in
13 registration of hospital beds in communities
14 that need this, nothing is being -- is going
15 with this bill that is going to really treat the
16 real problem, which is the number of people that
17 have the HIV virus.
18 And one other point. The
19 research on this particular virus, in my
20 opinion, has been stagnated and has been
21 obfuscated. Last year, after the debate, I was
22 confronted by one of the advocates for the
23 passing of this legislation, and they described
4203
1 some remarks that Senator Gold made on the floor
2 and some remarks that I made on the floor as
3 being bizarre about the alternative therapies
4 the people are using to treat the HIV virus.
5 Unfortunately, one of the issues
6 that's come up today, and I -- it doesn't matter
7 to me, everyone has to vote your conscience,
8 whether you vote for the bill. Senator Gold is
9 for the bill, but he's also for a much more
10 concentrated, much more extended research on the
11 legislation. But there has been a tendency in
12 the debate today to institutionalize the
13 treatment, in other words, to actually believe
14 that the treatment has had positive effects.
15 The only positive effect that any
16 study has really demonstrated hereto, one is
17 that if you treat the pregnant woman with AZT
18 you can diminish the number of newborns who test
19 positive for the HIV virus, so that's something
20 we should do.
21 Now, technically, what the
22 sponsors might have done is to have moved the
23 test back at the time that the women were
4204
1 actually pregnant. The second thing is that the
2 drugs we're using now, drugs like DDI and DDC,
3 are actually prolonging the lives of the
4 individuals who have it, but they are also
5 making them higher risks for a -- an earlier
6 death. In other words, the average time is
7 longer, but because these drugs exacerbate the
8 virus, many of these people are dying younger
9 than they would have; and so what I'm saying is,
10 this time period, the newborn, the test at birth
11 does not have the value that the very good
12 hearted people, sponsors and those who've
13 debated the bill, think that it actually does
14 and what it's doing, it is allowing all of us to
15 leave this chamber feeling reassured that modern
16 medicine is making every attempt to treat this
17 virus, when I contend that that is not
18 happening.
19 We are treating it with a bunch
20 of prescription drugs. AZT which was actually
21 used as a drug for cancer, chemotherapy, treats
22 and assists 12 percent of the patients, but 15
23 percent of them develop a new cancer. It's
4205
1 taking a giant step backwards, and what I'm
2 saying is we need a Galileo. We need a
3 Columbus. We need a Copernicus. We need the
4 kind of research and the kind of funding -
5 Velella? We need a Velella too.
6 We need people who are fighting
7 to try to find a cure for this virus. What I
8 like most about this bill and this discussion is
9 the fact that we're addressing this whole issue
10 in terms of this bill, I honestly feel that
11 we're rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic,
12 that we are not actually able, through the
13 information that we get from these tests, to
14 really help the victims whether we disclose it
15 to the mother or not and, if we find something
16 that is really tangible, something that's really
17 effective, our law has already covered that. We
18 will mandatorily inform the mother, but until
19 then, what we're saying is you have to take the
20 test. We have to tell you the results.
21 We'll tell you that it's going to
22 be confidential and then, in the meantime, if
23 you do have the HIV virus, we'll keep an eye on
4206
1 your child to see if they develop it because
2 there's no real treatment we can give at that
3 time. There's no real treatment we can give at
4 that time and at the same time what will we do
5 for you? Well, according to this year's budget,
6 not a whole lot in terms of the area of funding
7 and that is the reason, Mr. President, I feel
8 that I would want to oppose this bill.
9 But I would close just by
10 reminding all of us that those inventors, those
11 individuals who brought knowledge onto the face
12 of this earth, were always opposed by the
13 societies that they lived in. Thousands of
14 years ago or whenever it was that the first
15 person invented fire, I think they were probably
16 burned at the stake because they taught their
17 brothers and sisters to light, but they offered
18 the world a gift that had never been perceived
19 before and forever lifted darkness from the face
20 of the earth.
21 But throughout the centuries, the
22 great creators, the scientists, the inventors,
23 were opposed. Every new thought was denounced;
4207
1 every new idea was opposed. Fortunately, those
2 creative men and women went ahead. They fought,
3 they suffered and they paid, but they won and
4 they won by bringing forth onto our society and
5 other societies new knowledge and new
6 information.
7 We are not going to find that
8 knowledge by spending most of our time deciding
9 whether or not we're going to deny consent. We
10 are going to find that knowledge by pouring as
11 many resources as we can into AIDS research
12 before, as a society, this cancer envelops us
13 all through the ancillary diseases that we're
14 finding out, cryptosporidium in our water and
15 certainly tuberculosis, the affectation of AIDS
16 and a whole lot of other very serious diseases
17 that are being spawned by this menace.
18 That's where I think our
19 concentration must lie, and that's why I'm so
20 happy that Senator Velella is working on this
21 legislation because it gave us an opportunity to
22 discuss it today.
23 Thank you very much.
4208
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
2 recognizes Senator Velella to close debate.
3 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Mr.
4 President. I have probably six pages of notes
5 that I'd like to refer to, but I realize that
6 we're already over the limit and that we are -
7 we have additional work ahead of us tonight, so
8 I'm going to sum up as quickly as I possibly
9 can.
10 Let me say that I've heard a lot
11 of misstatements of fact here tonight and this
12 bill in no way, Senator Paterson, even begins to
13 deal with the issue of treatment. Obviously you
14 have some very strong feelings about what drugs
15 should be used, what techniques should be used,
16 what doctors have told you, what should be done,
17 what shouldn't be done.
18 All this bill says is that we're
19 going to let someone know that that baby that
20 was born has the potential of developing the
21 AIDS virus, and we're going to try to deal with
22 that and do the best we can for that child.
23 Now, that doesn't mean that we're
4209
1 going to give it AZT. It doesn't mean that
2 we're going to do anything else except take the
3 same precautions that the Centers for Disease
4 Control is now writing the protocols for to
5 start early treatment with -- with antibiotics
6 to prevent those pneumonias that I was talking
7 about. Atlanta is telling us that they are on
8 the verge of successfully putting together a
9 program where that prevention can be used, not
10 to save the life maybe, not to make that life
11 very much longer, but to let that infant have a
12 little more comfort level. It may be that extra
13 antibiotic; it may be a pain killer at some
14 point, but we want to make that child live out
15 its life to its fullest and in the most
16 comfortable fashion, hoping that around the
17 corner there is a cure for this disease.
18 Now, this is a very strange
19 disease, and last year I mentioned it and I
20 mention it again. It's the only politically
21 protected disease known to man. 39 pages in the
22 Health Law telling us what we cannot do about
23 people who have AIDS, nothing about what we can
4210
1 do.
2 Let's start turning the things
3 around. Let's start talking about what we can
4 do. We can look at reality. People won't
5 forget anything that we're doing up here and
6 understand the political battles that we fight,
7 whether we have budgets, whether we don't have
8 budgets. There's a side -- there's an argument
9 on each side, but when we put our heads in the
10 sand and deny reality, that's inexcusable. When
11 we cause innocent babies to suffer and to lose
12 their lives because we refuse to look at things
13 in a realistic way and give political protection
14 to one disease. If you have syphilis, you're
15 tested for that when you get -- when you're
16 pregnant. You have a battery of other
17 diseases. If you have tuberculosis, we can take
18 you and physically restrain you and hold you in
19 a room and isolate you because the good of the
20 people is to protect against that contagious
21 disease.
22 This is a contagious disease. We
23 have to fight it. We have to stop the ability
4211
1 of this disease to spread amongst our society,
2 and the way you do that is by letting people
3 know what the facts of life are about this
4 disease. If you have it, you have to deal with
5 it. You have to prevent other people from
6 getting it. There are going to be a battery of
7 bills that will be coming to the floor on these
8 issues, the issues of whether ambulance workers
9 have a right to have people tested that have -
10 that they have had an exchange of fluids with.
11 The issue of a woman who is raped, does she have
12 the right to know whether or not that man that
13 has raped her had the AIDS virus and has
14 possibly passed it on to her?
15 But this is probably the most
16 basic issue, an innocent life, a baby that is
17 born that may be able to be helped and may be
18 very possibly in the near future may be able to
19 be saved, but yet we, the Legislature, put our
20 heads in the sand.
21 Now, there's another issue and
22 I'll be quick on this because I know we're
23 running over, the issue of the amendment.
4212
1 Senator Dollinger, I -- you were out of the room
2 but I told you I support fully the concept of
3 counseling, but again the wrong time and the
4 wrong place. There's going to be a bill out on
5 the floor, the Health Department, Senator Tully,
6 Senator Hannon, various people from both houses,
7 both sides of the aisle, are working out a
8 realistic counseling bill, a mandatory
9 counseling bill. All of us are for that. This
10 is the safety net.
11 Suzi Oppenheimer basically said,
12 and I just jotted it down, Suzi, that you take
13 the woman and you say, if you know this, this is
14 what you must do. My bill says, when you take
15 the woman and you say if you know this, this is
16 what you must do, and if she says no, my bill
17 takes over. It saves her child in spite of
18 her. That's what we're trying to do. We want
19 to convince her to take the test. We want to
20 convince her to do all of the things that are
21 necessary, but when she says no, that child that
22 is now a born human being, alive outside of her
23 own body, has a right to the best medical
4213
1 treatment to make its life comfortable, to make
2 its life as long, to extend its life as long as
3 possible.
4 That is all this bill does. It
5 does nothing more. It gives those innocent
6 babies a chance. Senator Gold says it does, a
7 shot. Is it the answer to the problem? No, but
8 we'd better wake up in this state if we're going
9 to deal with this disease and realize that we
10 can't afford to politically protect diseases.
11 It's got to be treated like every other
12 contagious disease. The people that have it
13 have to be treated and have to be dealt with so
14 that they do not spread that disease to other
15 people whether it be their own family or
16 strangers. That's the way we traditionally have
17 dealt with every other contagious disease from
18 tuberculosis on down the line. We've dealt with
19 it effectively and efficiently for the good of
20 the people of this state, and we ought to deal
21 with this disease the same way. No political
22 protection, no special treatment. No 39 pages
23 in the laws of this state telling us what we
4214
1 can't do about AIDS, but yet no other disease
2 has that same volume of prohibitions.
3 I think what we have to do is
4 defeat this amendment. I call for its defeat
5 and pass the bill, Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 question is on the amendment. A vote in the
8 affirmative is a vote for the amendment. A vote
9 in the negative is a vote against the
10 amendment. All those in favor of the amendment
11 signify by saying aye.
12 (Response of "Aye.")
13 Opposed nay.
14 (Response of "Nay.")
15 The amendment fails.
16 Secretary will read the last
17 section of the bill.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
19 act shall take effect September 1st, 1995.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4215
1 Tully to explain his vote.
2 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr.
3 President.
4 I first want to commend the
5 efforts of all of those who are working to
6 combat the tragedy of HIV and in the case of
7 this particular bill, the transmission of HIV
8 from mothers to children.
9 During my tenure as the Senate
10 Health Committee chairman, I was privileged to
11 sponsor a landmark law to address the serious
12 maternal and child health care problems in this
13 state, plus the frightening epidemic of HIV. I
14 know as well or perhaps better than anyone in
15 this chamber of the severity and complexity of
16 these issues and of the need to support those
17 seeking solutions.
18 Last April, this house
19 unanimously passed legislation that I sponsored
20 to address maternal HIV transmission. That
21 approach required that HIV counseling,
22 appropriate testing with consent and treatment
23 be made a basic standard of prenatal care for
4216
1 all women in this state.
2 That legislation built on the
3 maternal and child HIV initiative included in
4 the NYPHRM V law that we sponsored the previous
5 December. It was further based on the new
6 research results showing an approximate 70
7 percent reduction in risk of maternal to child
8 HIV transmission by administering AZT to
9 pregnant women infected with the virus.
10 It had the support of the state
11 and regional hospital associations, the state
12 Medical Society, the state College of
13 Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the state
14 Nurses' Association and countless other
15 organizations and experts involved in public
16 health, maternal and child health and HIV
17 prevention and treatment.
18 Comments originally made by the
19 state Health Commissioner, Dr. DeBuono, during
20 and after her confirmation proceedings,
21 suggested that she too supported the approach
22 that we took last year. Candidly, I expect
23 based on those and other comments that we would
4217
1 be working jointly towards that end. However,
2 now that the Senate Health Committee voted last
3 month to send us this alternate approach before
4 us today for a vote, the commissioner is
5 apparently now willing to consider it as well.
6 On the bill, Mr. President, I
7 share the concerns that have been expressed that
8 this bill is not the best step for New York
9 infants or women or for the public health at
10 large. The reasons are numerous, have been
11 repeatedly stated and are evident in the many
12 memoranda that have been filed. I know of few
13 other issues that this house has deliberated
14 which have been so complicated and, unfor
15 tunately so broadly misunderstood, especially as
16 reported by the media.
17 Let the record show that I
18 continue to recommend the approach passed
19 unanimously by this house last year or one
20 similar to that. Minimally I would have
21 preferred to have been reviewing for this vote
22 today a bill that had three-way agreement.
23 However, this is not clearly what is before us
4218
1 at this time. I understand the Assembly has not
2 yet agreed to the bill on this floor and that
3 further negotiations are expected; so I'm
4 assuming that this issue in revised form would
5 be revisited for more definitive action as the
6 session continues, and I intend to work towards
7 that end with Senator Velella and the Assembly
8 sponsor, Assemblywoman Mayersohn.
9 While I continue to share the
10 many concerns that have been expressed, I feel
11 that the even greater tragedy would be to allow
12 the issue to continue to languish without
13 resolution. I will, therefore, vote in favor of
14 this bill in order that deliberations might be
15 escalated and an effective state response be
16 developed without further delay.
17 I vote aye.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Tully in the affirmative.
20 Just for -- ladies and gentlemen,
21 we are on a fast roll call. Could I ask all of
22 you who have voted against this to again raise
23 your hand. I'll continue to take explanations.
4219
1 Senator Leichter to explain his
2 vote.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
4 I must say this is about as difficult and as
5 complicated an issue as I have faced in my many
6 years here, because I think the initial logical
7 response is to say, Well, of course you ought to
8 tell the mother, and initially, I think when
9 Assemblywoman Mayersohn approached me on this
10 and let me -- let me pay observance to her and
11 acknowledge how hard she has worked on this
12 issue and how committed she is to it, and also
13 Senator Velella.
14 But if you -- if you then go and
15 speak to the health professionals, the people
16 who are working with a very difficult
17 population, you'd begin to understand or at
18 least to see the arguments against it, and I
19 think what so often happens, we certainly do it
20 in the field of criminal law. We apply the
21 logic that we would apply, that the people that
22 we're trying to reach unfortunately are outside
23 of the mainstream of behavior and there's real
4220
1 concern that they're going to, instead of
2 responding, are in fact, going to take action
3 that's going to be not in the interest of the
4 child or the interest of the mother, and I must
5 assume that it's for this reason.
6 I take a look at the
7 organizations against it. I mean these are not
8 ideologues, these are organizations that work
9 each and every day to combat the AIDS epidemic,
10 whose job, whose function, whose purpose, whose
11 commitment, whose mission is to save lives, to
12 save lives of children: The Medical Society,
13 the American College of Obstetricians and
14 Gynecologists, the American Medical Association,
15 the Hospital Association, doctors and our
16 medical centers.
17 This is not their self
18 interest. I think Senator Tully and others have
19 said it here, that the real answer is the
20 mandatory counseling during pregnancy, and I'm
21 also concerned that by passing this bill we're
22 going to close up shop and we're going to say
23 we've taken care of the issue.
4221
1 Senator Velella says no, we're
2 going to come before you. We're going to have a
3 counseling bill. Why weren't all these bills
4 put out together, if we're looking for a
5 comprehensive unified approach that should have
6 been done.
7 So for these reasons, Mr.
8 President, and following the advice of
9 organizations that I think know much more about
10 this problem and what needs to be done than we
11 do in spite of of all our good facility and all
12 our desire to deal effectively with the problem,
13 I'm voting in the negative.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Leichter in the negative.
16 Senator Jones to explain her
17 vote.
18 SENATOR JONES: Yes. I've
19 listened very carefully today and as I did last
20 year to all the debate and the discussion on
21 this, and I think as I mentioned before I had
22 the opportunity even to visit Harlem Hospital
23 last year and, after talking to the doctors and
4222
1 everybody there, I came away thoroughly
2 convinced that this is not the right way to go,
3 that this bill is the wrong approach, and I
4 truthfully haven't changed my mind on that.
5 Senator Tully is correct in what
6 he's saying, but two things came across to me
7 today. One was a word my colleague on this side
8 said when he used the word "minimum," and you
9 also heard Senator Velella say "fall through the
10 cracks." Confidentiality is clearly not an
11 issue to me. The issue is the spread of the
12 disease for which as of today there is no cure
13 no matter what we want to say about it.
14 The problem is we're putting the
15 cart before the horse. I totally agree that the
16 right approach is to get the woman prenatally,
17 do everything you can, and I think Senator
18 Velella is really saying the same thing because
19 when you get to the end here and you've got this
20 small group of women who refuse or didn't take
21 advantage of that, then clearly we need to step
22 in and do something for that child.
23 So I think it's unfortunate that
4223
1 we didn't put the right thing first which was to
2 use every means we could to get at this woman
3 during pregnancy.
4 I hope that you're -- you're
5 right when you say it will come back and we'll
6 put these two pieces together, because to me
7 what we're voting on today, and I admit it's no
8 reason to vote against it, but what we're voting
9 on is the end of the line, and we miss all the
10 steps up to there. So I'm hoping -- I will
11 support the bill, but I certainly hope that
12 Senator Tully's approach will be incorporated in
13 this, and this will be the end of the line for
14 those women who, for whatever reason, aren't
15 willing to take what we're offering in
16 counseling, treatment prior to the pregnancy,
17 and the child will in the end get whaatever help
18 it may need.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Jones in the affirmative.
21 Senator Dollinger to explain his
22 vote.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
4224
1 President, I think this is the most difficult
2 issue I've been called to vote on in my three
3 years in this chamber.
4 Let me start by saying Senator
5 Velella and I have sparred a number of times on
6 this floor about all kinds of things, but I want
7 to commend him for his closing argument.
8 I think the bottom line,
9 unfortunately, comes down to something very
10 simple and may be it ties in with what Senator
11 Tully said as well, in his well chosen remarks.
12 How do we save babies? That's what we want to
13 do. How do we save 'em? And the problem is, at
14 least as I see it, the science of this is that
15 if you test after birth and the test is
16 positive, you can't save the baby. You can't.
17 If the baby develops HIV, unfortunately, in our
18 current world of science, the baby is going to
19 die.
20 There are all kinds of things we
21 could do for that child, we should do for that
22 child, and I agree with Senator Velella, we're
23 not -- this bill doesn't involve the treatment
4225
1 of that child. Please let's get the appropriate
2 treatment, the best life sustaining treatment
3 that we can to that child.
4 But the inescapable fact is, if
5 you want to save lives, the mother should take
6 AZT during her pregnancy and the way to best
7 accomplish that is to require that she undergo
8 mandatory counseling. I agree with Senator
9 Velella, I agree with Senator Abate and others,
10 some women are going to fall through the
11 cracks.
12 That is a tragedy, and I hope
13 that, when this bill comes back as I know
14 Senator Velella, as I've heard him say it and as
15 I've heard Senator Tully say it, that there will
16 be a focus to try our darnedest to get them into
17 test as quickly as we can. I see that as your
18 intent, Senator Velella, and Assemblywoman
19 Mayersohn, but under the current way the bill is
20 focused, it's all focused after the fact and
21 we've got to push that focus before the fact,
22 and I look forward to voting on a bill and hope
23 working it out with the Health Committee or with
4226
1 anyone who will invite me to participate to make
2 that as much counseling, as much focus as we can
3 when we can save the baby, when we can take AZT
4 during pregnancy and advise the woman the minute
5 the child is born, don't breast feed the baby.
6 Then we're in a position where we can actually
7 save lives.
8 Mr. President, as I said, this is
9 the most difficult vote I've taken. I sometimes
10 sit here and wonder what is the right thing to
11 do. Some little thing inside me says that the
12 balance is ever so slight.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do
14 you vote, Senator Dollinger?
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The right
16 thing to do is to vote in the negative.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Dollinger in the negative.
19 Senator Paterson to explain his
20 vote.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
22 I think the jury has spoken; the advocates have
23 spoken, and I think I did accept the decision,
4227
1 and we'll go forward and try to concentrate on
2 the real menace which is the virus which it says
3 16 years ago we never even heard of this, and
4 now it's the leading killer of a number of
5 different age groups.
6 I just wanted to throw in the
7 record that I have in my hand Section 13.5 of
8 the AACPR guidelines for the treatment of HIV.
9 This is the management overview. There are two
10 sections that apply to children. One involves
11 counting the CD4 cells, and the other involves a
12 CT scan and continued monitoring every three
13 months.
14 There is nothing in here that
15 suggests that there be any treatment with
16 antibiotics to prevent Pneumocystis CP pneumonia
17 as Senator Velella suggests. Antibiotics are
18 very dangerous for people to be taken when you
19 don't know whether or not they're sick, and I
20 would suggest, based on past experience now that
21 we are going to have this bill which may become
22 law, that we not treat anyone who we do not know
23 is infected.
4228
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Paterson in the negative.
3 Senator Saland to explain his
4 vote.
5 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Mr.
6 President.
7 We're not engaging here in an
8 intellectual or existential exercise. This is
9 very real life, and the lives at risk have no
10 say in the matter. The lives at risk are
11 infants. The lives at risk did not ask to come
12 into this world, with the potential for an
13 absolutely God-awful affliction.
14 We have a duty. That duty is to
15 try in some fashion to avoid benignly neglecting
16 and compounding their situation. Senator
17 Velella has provided us with a vehicle. He has
18 provided us with what I think is the right
19 vehicle. He has provided us with the means by
20 which we can say that this exercise, this blind
21 testing taken no further, is almost tantamount
22 to saying that the mother of a child is engaged
23 in Russian roulette, Russian roulette to the
4229
1 extent that there are a number of infants who
2 can be spared becoming AIDS-infected if, in
3 fact, their risk is reduced by their not breast
4 feeding, some of whom, who are in fact HIV
5 positive and subsequently demonstrate the
6 presence of AIDS, can be, through proper
7 treatment, able to sustain a normal life
8 according to the CDC, can live for as many as
9 ten years sustained during the course of that
10 normal life by medical assistance, and who's to
11 say that in that intervening period we do not
12 have the ability through the very same sources,
13 through the very same inventors referred to, of
14 the magnitude referred to by Senator Paterson,
15 to, in fact, come up with some type of a cure.
16 Why do we want to condemn the
17 infant to a life that will either be compounded
18 by the worst kind of deprivation or, in fact,
19 shortened by something akin to a death sentence?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do
21 you vote, Senator Saland?
22 SENATOR SALAND: I vote in the
23 affirmative.
4230
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Saland in the affirmative.
3 Senator Marcellino to explain his
4 vote.
5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: This bill
6 gives us the ability to provide some light on a
7 very difficult issue. What I'm hearing is akin
8 to the old joke about the old man who marries
9 the young woman. If she dies, she dies.
10 The opponents of this legislation
11 are saying by wishful thinking we're going to
12 hope that women will take part in voluntary
13 testing and voluntary counseling and that, by
14 merely telling them that you may, possibly,
15 could, maybe because you might get something if
16 you did the wrong thing, we hope they're going
17 to do the right thing and if they don't, we're
18 O.K., because, after all, we gave them the
19 opportunity and they simply didn't do anything.
20 In the meantime, they could go
21 on, engage in unsafe sex and spread this disease
22 all over the place and we're doing nothing about
23 it because somebody says it's not a good idea or
4231
1 it might be dangerous.
2 I suggest that Senator Velella
3 and Assemblyman Mayersohn's bill is the way to
4 go, and I hope in the future we can take my
5 learned colleague, Mike Tully's, legislation and
6 incorporate it and make one really good positive
7 bill on this situation.
8 I vote aye.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Marcellino in the affirmative. Secretary will
11 announce the results.
12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
13 the negative on Calendar Number 184 are Senators
14 Abate, Connor, Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery,
15 Oppenheimer, Paterson, Santiago. Ayes 49, nays
16 9.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
18 is passed.
19 Senator Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I
21 believe there is a report of -- if we can return
22 to reports of standing committees and I believe
23 there is a report from the Rules Committee.
4232
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
2 a report of the Rules Committee at the desk. We
3 will return to reports of standing committees,
4 ask the Secretary to read.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
6 from the Committee on Rules, offers up the
7 following bills directly for third reading:
8 Senate Bill 3781, by Senator
9 Marchi and DiCarlo, an act to incorporate the
10 city of Staten Island, to enact a charter for
11 the city of Staten Island, to provide a period
12 of transition prior to the establishment of the
13 city of Staten Island.
14 Also Print Number 4,000, by the
15 Committee on Rules, an act to amend the Private
16 Housing Finance Law, in relation to the state's
17 involvement in the national Affordable Housing
18 Act Program.
19 Both bills directly for third
20 reading.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we adopt
22 the report.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is
4233
1 to accept the report. All those in favor
2 signify by saying aye.
3 (Response of "Aye.")
4 Opposed nay.
5 (There was no response.)
6 The report is adopted.
7 Senator Skelos.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. May we
9 please take up Calendar Number 362, S. 4,000.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
11 will read Calendar Number 362.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 362, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print
14 Number 4,000, an act to amend the Private
15 Housing Finance Law, in relation to the state's
16 involvement in the national Affordable Housing
17 Act Program.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
21 is there a message of necessity and appropria
22 tion at the desk?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4234
1 Skelos, there is a message of appropriation and
2 necessity.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is
5 to accept the messages. All those in favor
6 signify by saying aye.
7 (Response of "Aye.")
8 Opposed nay.
9 (There was no response. )
10 The message is accepted.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
12 could we read the last section and call the roll
13 for the purposes of Senator Gold voting.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
15 will read the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 20. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll. )
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Gold, how do you vote?
23 SENATOR GOLD: Negative.
4235
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Gold in the negative. The roll call is
3 withdrawn. The bill is before the house for
4 debate.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by,
8 I believe, Senator Leichter.
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
10 if I was to make a simple explanation here,
11 which I'm sure is what everyone wants, this bill
12 includes the Article 7 bills which, in effect,
13 implement the budget.
14 Now, I could go from subject to
15 subject, but I know everyone has -- has the
16 outline. By no means am I making light of the
17 importance of this legislation, but I think
18 probably it would serve our purpose best and we
19 would get most -- get the most out of it, and we
20 would have a more constructive discussion if we
21 asked for anyone to talk to specific points and
22 we have experts that will be more than happy to
23 share their knowledge with us.
4236
1 I think Senator Montgomery had a
2 question.
3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I had an
4 answer to my question.
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Let me just,
7 if I may then, just very briefly, on the bill.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Leichter, on the bill.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: I gather that
11 what the Majority has done is put everything,
12 including the kitchen sink into this one bill,
13 what was originally about 20 or 30 Chapter 7
14 bills -- 59. And while, as I understand it from
15 my colleagues on this side of the aisle,
16 certainly some of these we would support, having
17 it as an omnibus bill makes it difficult for us
18 to support the bill.
19 So I believe at least some of us
20 are going to vote in the negative. While there
21 are specific provisions in here that we would
22 support, probably not the best way to approach
23 it, but I also am told this is a one-house bill,
4237
1 and will probably be revisited in maybe a more
2 manageable form at some future time.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Paterson.
5 SENATOR STAFFORD: I might just
6 point out in just a second that this is about 60
7 of the 93 bills that were sent up, and I would
8 point out that through the years that you and I
9 have been here, this isn't the first year that
10 these have been put together. So go ahead.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Paterson.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
14 just briefly, in this bill it appears upon
15 information and belief that there is no Keno in
16 this bill, which is $115 million of the
17 projected amount of money that we would have to
18 spend. In addition, the $110 million revenue
19 from the pension grab, the raid on the pension
20 system, isn't in here.
21 There's no explanation of a
22 school aid formula in this particular bill, and
23 there's no real award of the SUNY and CUNY
4238
1 tuition in this particular legislation.
2 This bill came out today. We,
3 the Minority, haven't had a chance to conference
4 it. We really haven't had a chance to fully
5 examine it. It's the conglomeration of 59
6 Article 7 bills, so it's very difficult, and I
7 recommend a no vote. It is during the day, but
8 it is kind of a voting in the dark sort of
9 process, and all of these issues will have to be
10 agreed upon later between the Governor and the
11 Senate who agree on this, but also with the
12 Assembly, with the Speaker, and including those
13 issues that really are not agreed upon even in
14 this bill because the bill doesn't reveal them.
15 Thank you.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
17 will read the last section.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll
19 call, Mr. President.
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would point
21 out -
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Stafford.
4239
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Before we get
2 to the roll call, Mr. President, I would point
3 out that there are a number of issues that still
4 have to be settled. We mentioned Quick Draw.
5 There's a difference of opinion. That will be
6 discussed.
7 I would point out that I remember
8 being here at a time when -- Mr. President, I
9 know I'm boring, but if we could have just a
10 speck of order.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You raise
12 a very good point, Senator Stafford. Senator
13 Stafford has the floor. I ask the members and
14 the staff to please take their seats and please
15 listen to the debate.
16 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would just
17 point out that, in the past, it has not been -
18 it has not been or it has been the practice
19 often to pass various bills and then there would
20 be additional bills, and I'm sure there still
21 will be additional.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
23 will read the last section.
4240
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 20. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
4 roll. Go ahead; call the role.
5 Slow roll call requested. Call
6 the roll slowly.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
8 (There was no response. )
9 Senator Babbush.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Bruno.
12 (Affirmative indication. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Aye.
14 Senator Connor.
15 SENATOR CONNOR: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook.
17 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator
19 DeFrancisco.
20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
22 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
4241
1 Dollinger.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
3 President, to explain my vote.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Dollinger, to explain his vote.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And I'll be
7 very brief, Mr. President.
8 The last time I was asked to vote
9 on one of these big huge budgets, lo and behold,
10 it had all kinds of things tucked in it, all
11 kinds of language, and I had the experience of
12 being accused on television of being voting in
13 favor of rapists, all kinds of nefarious things
14 I didn't know anything about, because it was
15 tucked into this budget.
16 So what I'd like to do is just
17 exempt a couple things that I would favor: The
18 provision that deals with the testing of
19 convicted rapists, oh, I don't have a problem
20 with that; some of the criminal justice things
21 that are also included in this with respect to
22 work release. I'm not against those things
23 either.
4242
1 I'm against this overall bill
2 because about 550 pages adopt the budget that we
3 passed that I voted against. So I hope I'm not
4 stepping in a favorite and familiar trap of my
5 colleagues on the other side of the aisle in
6 their television ads, but let it be known that
7 there are parts of this bill that I favor and
8 parts that I'm opposed to.
9 Overall I'm going to vote no.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Dollinger in the negative. Secretary continue
12 to call the roll.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
14 SENATOR ESPADA: No.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
16 (There was no response. )
17 Senator Galiber excused.
18 Senator Gold voting in the
19 negative earlier today.
20 Senator Gonzalez.
21 SENATOR GONZALEZ: No.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman
23 excused.
4243
1 Senator Hannon.
2 (There was no response. )
3 Senator Hoblock.
4 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann
6 excused.
7 Senator Holland.
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones.
12 SENATOR JONES: Explain my vote.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Jones to explain her vote.
15 SENATOR JONES: I'm making the
16 supposition, since the budget wasn't real, that
17 this document that goes with it also must not
18 be, but I will have to echo what my colleague on
19 the other side of the aisle certainly doesn't
20 mean it if it says here on page 187 or something
21 that I haven't read yet, that you or that I do
22 believe in letting rapists go free or any such
23 thing, I'm not in favor of that.
4244
1 So when it's real, I'll think
2 about voting for it.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Jones in the negative.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
6 SENATOR KRUGER: No.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
8 SENATOR KUHL: Aye.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
10 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
12 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
14 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
16 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator
18 Leichter.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: No.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
21 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
4245
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
2 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator
4 Marcellino.
5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
7 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator
9 Markowitz.
10 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz.
12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Montgomery.
17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
19 SENATOR NANULA: No.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator
21 Nozzolio.
22 (There was no response. )
23 Senator Onorato.
4246
1 SENATOR ONORATO: No.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator
3 Oppenheimer.
4 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Paterson.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: No.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
13 SENATOR RATH: Aye.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
15 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Santiago.
18 (There was no response. )
19 Senator Sears. Senator Sears.
20 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
22 SENATOR SEWARD: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
4247
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
3 SENATOR SMITH: No.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon.
5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President,
6 to explain my vote.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Solomon, to explain his vote.
9 SENATOR SOLOMON: We've been in
10 this chamber for a long time today and really
11 instead of debating this bill, I'd just like to
12 highlight a couple of points about why I'm going
13 to vote against it.
14 Among other reasons, it takes
15 $220 million away from the Mass Transit
16 Operating Funds which the MTA was planning to
17 use in 1996-97. The net result will be a fare
18 increase for the MTA region, in addition to the
19 New York City subway and bus fares. In addition
20 there is no TAP schedule that that tells us what
21 will happen with the money for TAP.
22 And what additionally concerns me
23 is what again is going to happen to those people
4248
1 in New York City, the home health care
2 recipients, regarding a schedule that has been
3 implemented in this piece of legislation which,
4 in fact, is very unfair, where the average
5 number of hours received by those recipients is
6 154 hours a month. This is basically going to
7 tell the localities, Well, we're not going to
8 pay you for that 40 percent of that 154 hours.
9 We are, in fact, going to cut it down so you'll
10 get a certain percentage up to 80 and then
11 you'll get a reduced percentage up to 120 hours
12 and then after the 120 hours those last 30 hours
13 nothing.
14 As I said, this is a bill that's
15 probably going to result in a fair increase in
16 New York City and down the line and it's
17 inherently an unfair piece of legislation.
18 That's why I'm going to vote no.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Solomon in the negative. Secretary will
21 continue to call the roll.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
23 SENATOR SPANO: Aye.
4249
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Stachowski.
3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Stafford.
6 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Stavisky.
9 SENATOR STAVISKY: No.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo.
11 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
13 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
15 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
17 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
19 (There was no response. )
20 Senator Wright.
21 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
23 will call the absentees.
4250
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
2 SENATOR ABATE: No.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Farley.
6 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon.
8 SENATOR HANNON: Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Hannon to explain his vote.
11 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Mr.
12 President.
13 There has been a considerable
14 amount of work, time, effort and that by members
15 of the Senate collectively and the Majority to
16 take what was a dramatic and drastic and far too
17 draconian proposals that have come up from the
18 second floor in terms of the budget with regard
19 to the Medicaid cuts and certainly there will be
20 people in every part of the state who said, I
21 wish this would happen or that had happened to
22 make things better.
23 But we have tried throughout all
4251
1 parts of the health care system to alleviate
2 what would have been much more dramatic pain,
3 nursing homes, hospitals, home health care and
4 we have provided a restoration, long-term care
5 program, the nursing home without walls.
6 We have restored many items that
7 people had thought ought to be restored and we
8 have recast the personal care provisions so that
9 all of the localities not only in cutting down
10 the unnecessarily costly hours but keeping those
11 savings if they achieve certain goals.
12 Along with that, we have provided
13 some incentive, a long overdue enactment which
14 we're seeking of provision of funding long-term
15 care. We do that by virtue of a tax deduction.
16 We also provide stability to hold in place the
17 entire health care system by extending the
18 NYPHRM system for another year.
19 There are significant changes we
20 have made to the Article 7 bill that we received
21 and we would hope that we would receive -- we
22 would receive everybody's approval of this.
23 Thank you. I vote yes.
4252
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Hannon in the affirmative. Secretary will
3 continue to call the absentees.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Nozzolio.
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Santiago.
9 (There was no response. )
10 Senator Waldon.
11 (There was no response. )
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
13 the results.
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 35, nays
15 21.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 Senator Skelos.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
20 is there any housekeeping?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We do
22 have some housekeeping.
23 Senator LaValle.
4253
1 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President,
2 on page 26, I offer the following amendments to
3 Calendar Number 347 -- 341, Senate Print Number
4 3569, and ask that said bill retain its place on
5 the Third Reading Calendar.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
7 Amendments to Calendar Number 341 are received
8 and accepted. Bill will retain its place on the
9 Third Reading Calendar.
10 Senator Bruno.
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
12 I'd like to announce a Republican Conference at
13 10:00 a.m. tomorrow, Wednesday morning, in Room
14 332, and Mr. President, there being no further
15 business to come before the Senate, I move we
16 stand adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, at
17 11:00 a.m.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
19 will be a Republican Majority Conference in the
20 Majority Conference Room, Wednesday at 10:00
21 a.m. sharp.
22 Without objection, the Senate
23 stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, at
4254
1 11:00 a.m.
2 (Whereupon, at 7:05 p.m., the
3 Senate adjourned.)
4
5
6
7