Regular Session - May 1, 1995
5081
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9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 May 1, 1995
11 3:04 p.m.
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14 REGULAR SESSION
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18 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President
19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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5082
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate
3 will come to order. Ask the members to find
4 their places, staff to find their places.
5 I ask everybody in the chamber to
6 please rise with me and say the Pledge of
7 Allegiance.
8 (Whereupon, the Senate and those
9 present joined in the Pledge of Allegiance to
10 the Flag.)
11 We are very pleased to have with
12 us the Rabbi Shmuel M. Butman of the Lubavitch
13 Youth Organization in Brooklyn, New York, to
14 deliver the invocation.
15 Rabbi Butman.
16 RABBI SHMUEL M. BUTMAN: Senator
17 Marchi. Ladies and gentlemen. Let us pray.
18 Dear God, by divine providence
19 this prayer is being said on the day of the
20 final recitation of the Kaddish prayer for the
21 revered leader, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson,
22 the Lubavitcher Rebbe, whose 93rd anniversary we
23 celebrated just three weeks ago on the eleventh
5083
1 day of Nissan, and you have passed a resolution
2 in honor of the Rebbe's 93rd birthday.
3 The Rebbe often told us that this
4 is the last generation of the Arab exile which
5 will soon become the first generation of
6 redemption, the Messianic era, foretold by the
7 prophets, "Nation shall not lift up sword
8 against nation," and when universal peace and
9 justice will prevail. This grand vision is
10 reflected in Psalm 94, which it is customary to
11 read daily starting from the 93rd birthday.
12 After calling for God to reveal
13 himself as judge of the world and bring a end to
14 the situation when the wicked, quote, "kill
15 widows and strangers and murder orphans," as we
16 unfortunately witnessed in the tragedy in
17 Oklahoma, the psalmist describes how God will
18 bring tranquility and justice to the world and
19 consolation to the righteous.
20 By divine providence the members
21 of this legislative body, the New York State
22 Senate, have been elected by the people of the
23 State of New York to prepare this great state
5084
1 for the Messianic area. As custodians of law,
2 of honesty, decency and morality, the Senators
3 gathered here are privileged to enact laws that
4 create a more honest, decent, law-abiding
5 society, preventing chaos from prevailing.
6 And let me share with you for
7 just a brief moment a few words of Talmudic
8 wisdom. The Talmud says, "Pray for the welfare
9 of the government; for were it not for the fear
10 of the government, people will swallow each
11 other alive." You are the government of the
12 great State of New York.
13 Furthermore, the State of New
14 York is a key state in the United States of
15 America, presently the world's only super power,
16 looked up by all other nations as a symbol of
17 success and prosperity; therefore, it is in a
18 position to beneficially influence all other
19 nations to uphold the exalted standards of
20 justice and freedom upon which this great nation
21 was founded and to which we remain eternally
22 committed.
23 It follows that this State of New
5085
1 York plays a key role in bringing the awareness
2 of these high standards to the entire world,
3 which is reflected again by divine providence in
4 the location of the United Nations headquarters
5 in this great State of New York.
6 It has become customary for me to
7 take this opportunity to place a dollar bill
8 engraved with the words "In God we trust" into
9 this charity box. A charity box reminds us that
10 our obligations are not only towards our friends
11 and neighbors that live around us, but our
12 obligation is indeed to all people throughout
13 the world.
14 Help us, dear God, to bring to
15 all citizens of the State of New York and the
16 United States and the entire world this vital
17 message of practicing charity and how it
18 prepares the world for a brighter future which
19 will reach its fullest potential in the
20 Messianic era soon to be upon us.
21 May the members of the great
22 Senate of the State of New York be worthy of the
23 great privilege that you, dear God, have
5086
1 bestowed upon them and may they be successful in
2 creating a just and peaceful society that serves
3 as a model to the entire world, preparing the
4 way for the universal justice and peace of the
5 Messianic era, and may each of these legislators
6 who serve the public of this state have much
7 success, both in their public lives and together
8 with their families in their private lives.
9 To quote from the text of our
10 Sabbath prayer, "May God reward those who
11 sincerely serve the needs of the public,
12 removing from them all sickness and sending them
13 blessings and success in all their endeavors."
14 And I know, ladies and gentlemen,
15 that we're all worried about the budget, and I
16 know that in honor of the Rebbe you will pass
17 the budget immediately, successfully.
18 Thank you very, very much.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Reading
20 of the Journal.
21 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
22 Sunday, April 30. The Senate met pursuant to
23 adjournment. Senator Farley in the chair upon
5087
1 designation of the Temporary President. The
2 Journal of Saturday, April 29, was read and
3 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing
5 no objection, the Journal stands approved as
6 read.
7 Presentation of petitions.
8 Messages from the Assembly.
9 Messages from the Governor.
10 Reports of standing committees.
11 Reports of select committees.
12 Communications and reports from
13 state officers.
14 Motions and resolutions.
15 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno.
16 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President.
17 There will be an immediate meeting of the
18 Finance Committee in Room 332, and that
19 immediately followed by a meeting of the Rules
20 Committee.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
22 will be an immediate meeting of the Senate
23 Finance Committee in the Majority Conference
5088
1 Room, Room 332. That's to be followed
2 immediately by a Rules Committee meeting.
3 Senator Bruno.
4 SENATOR BRUNO: Senator Present,
5 I believe, is looking for recognition from the
6 chair.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The chair
8 recognizes Senator Present.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
10 On behalf of Senator Trunzo, I wish to call up
11 his bill, Print 3661, recalled from the
12 Assembly, which is now at the desk.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
14 will read.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 359, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 3661, an
17 act to amend the Civil Service Law, in relation
18 to conforming to the terminology and procedures
19 with the existing practice for obtaining a guide
20 dog.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Present.
23 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
5089
1 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this
2 bill was passed.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
5 (The Secretary called the roll on
6 reconsideration.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
9 is before the house.
10 Senator Present.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: I now offer the
12 following amendments.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 amendments are received and adopted.
15 Senator Present.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
17 I wish to call up on behalf of Senator DiCarlo,
18 his bill, Print 1984, recalled from the
19 Assembly, which is now at the desk.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
21 will read.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 317, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 1984, an
5090
1 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
2 qualifications of employment.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Present.
5 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
6 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this
7 bill was passed.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
10 (The Secretary called the roll on
11 reconsideration.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is before the house.
15 Senator Present.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President.
17 I now offer the following amendments.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
19 Amendments are received and adopted.
20 Chair recognizes Senator Tully.
21 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
22 President. On behalf of Senator Skelos, on page
23 26, I offer the following amendments to Calendar
5091
1 Number 260, Senate Print Number 2337, and ask
2 that said bill retain its place on the Third
3 Reading Calendar.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
5 Amendments are received and adopted. The bill
6 will retain its place on the Third Reading
7 Calendar.
8 Senator Tully.
9 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
10 On behalf of Senator Cook, on page 34, I offer
11 the following amendments to Calendar Number 431,
12 Senate Print Number 565, and ask that said bill
13 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
15 Amendments to Calendar Number 431 are received
16 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on
17 the Third Reading Calendar.
18 Senator Tully.
19 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
20 On behalf of Senator Velella, on page 35, I
21 offer the following amendments to Calendar
22 Number 439, Senate Print Number 3453, and ask
23 that said bill retain its place on the Third
5092
1 Reading Calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
3 Amendments to Calendar Number 439 are received
4 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on
5 the Third Reading Calendar.
6 Senator Larkin.
7 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President.
8 I'd like to remove a sponsor star from Calendar
9 Number 198, Senate Bill 2655A.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor
11 star is removed from Calendar Number 198.
12 Senator Wright.
13 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President.
14 On behalf of Senator Stafford, please place a
15 sponsor star on Calendar Number 491.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar
17 Number 491 is starred at the request of the
18 sponsor.
19 Senator Wright.
20 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President.
21 On behalf of Senator Skelos, please place a
22 sponsor star on Calendars Number 564 and 588.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor
5093
1 stars placed on Calendar Number 564 and -
2 SENATOR WRIGHT: 588.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 588.
4 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr.
5 President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Bruno.
8 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President. I
9 believe there is a resolution at the desk by
10 Senator Marchi. I would ask that it be read in
11 its entirety and move for its immediate
12 adoption.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
14 will read the privileged resolution by Senator
15 Marchi in its entirety.
16 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
17 Marchi, Legislative Resolution, commemorating
18 the celebration of the anniversary of the 93rd
19 birthday of the revered Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi
20 Menachem M. Schneerson.
21 Whereas, World Jewry is now
22 celebrating the anniversary of the 93rd birthday
23 of the revered leader Rabbi Menachem M.
5094
1 Schneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe; and
2 Whereas, the Lubavitcher Rebbe,
3 over his 44 years of dedicated leadership,
4 established over 1500 Lubavitch Centers, helping
5 people of all walks of life throughout the
6 world, from Australia to Africa, from Holland to
7 Argentina, from Moscow to Jerusalem; and
8 Whereas, Rabbi Schneerson's
9 educational activities throughout the globe
10 enriched and strengthened the religious,
11 educational, cultural, moral and ethical fibers
12 of all citizens of the world; and
13 Whereas, the Rebbe proclaimed
14 that the time of redemption has arrived and
15 Moshiach is on his way; and
16 Whereas, the Lubavitcher Rebbe
17 called upon all citizens of the world to prepare
18 for the great redemption with a personal
19 commitment to increase in charity and good
20 deeds; now, therefore, be it.
21 Resolved, that this Legislative
22 Body proclaim the period from April 11, 1995,
23 corresponding to the 11th of Nissan, 5755, the
5095
1 Rebbe's 92nd birthday to July 12, 1995,
2 corresponding to the 14th day of Tammuz, as "New
3 York State 93 Days of Education", as a special
4 tribute to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem
5 M. Schneerson, Shlita; and be it further
6 Resolved, that a copy of this
7 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted
8 to the Lubavitch movement, together with sincere
9 best wishes for success in all their endeavors.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
11 recognizes Senator Marchi on the resolution.
12 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President.
13 To reexamine my own personal genesis with the
14 Rebbe and with Rabbi Butman and so many members
15 of the congregation, I go back a period of
16 perhaps 25 years ago when I had the privilege of
17 a one-on-one dialogue with him, and Rabbi Butman
18 assures me that perhaps it was one of the
19 longest periods that anyone ever enjoyed in
20 colloquy with a man of his stature and his
21 spiritual grandeur; and it was, indeed, an
22 exciting experience because he represented and
23 he represents by all those who can identify with
5096
1 the feelings that have been expressed in the
2 resolution the enormous -- the enormous
3 significance it has to mankind in terms of the
4 dignity of each and every individual.
5 The vast majority of mankind at
6 that time was pursuing animism, worshipping
7 rock, stones, the sun or the earth or whatever,
8 but we did not have a beginning of civilization
9 until the appreciation and the commitment was
10 made to the spiritual autonomy of the
11 individual. We were emancipated as men and
12 women. We were emancipated as members of that
13 great society, creatures of God, by virtue of
14 the spiritual significance, communicating from
15 the individual, a cosmos, with the singularity
16 that is not communicable except by desire and by
17 prayer, a thinking that changed the face of the
18 planet; and this call here speaks of and urges
19 the great redemptive effect that is implicit in
20 the message that is shared with us.
21 The Rebbe was a great student of
22 Maimonides, who again reexpressed the
23 Aristotelian underpinnings and philosophy and
5097
1 kept it intact and gave it its greatest voice,
2 its greatest significance. A native of Cordoba,
3 he was a precursor to those who are in the
4 scholastic tradition in the Christian religions
5 of Thomas Aquinas scholasticism, a rich -- a
6 rich cultural and spiritual resource. Mortimer
7 Adler, who was the editor of the last
8 Britannica, was a scholastic, as was Robert
9 Hutchings; and so much of our feeling in the
10 religions that are assembled here and
11 represented in various manifestations, Rabbi
12 Schneerson gave it force and effect, 1500
13 schools throughout the world carrying that
14 message of redemptive effort.
15 A man of sophistication, just in
16 talking with him and communicating with him, you
17 saw that you immediately felt the presence of
18 someone who has a greatness about him, a
19 greatness that came from God, and he shared it
20 so well with myself or countless people
21 throughout the world who were affected by his
22 message.
23 So we are pleased. It's an
5098
1 annual exercise, Rabbi Butman, but we are
2 honored every time you come here. I wish our
3 mechanics and our logistics, notwithstanding
4 budgets and other factors of life, this is
5 important. This is what is really important in
6 life. Why are we here? What is our purpose in
7 life? When we have solved that, everything else
8 seems to recede into it's proper perspective
9 because that is what counts. That is what is
10 meaningful.
11 And your presence, sir, and the
12 presence of your colleagues does us honor, and
13 your call and your exhortation for this Senate
14 and this body -- and you have had that
15 experience with the Assembly -- has to help us
16 all, and we are grateful and we thank you.
17 I ask for the passage of this
18 resolution.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 question is on the resolution all those in favor
21 signify by saying aye.
22 (Response of "Aye.")
23 Opposed, nay.
5099
1 (There was no response.)
2 The resolution is unanimously
3 adopted.
4 Senator Bruno.
5 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we open up
6 the resolution, add anyone in the chamber, and I
7 would think that would be unanimous, that would
8 like to be added to that resolution.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Bruno, if it is to be handled as we have handled
11 matters like this in the past, we will put
12 everybody on the resolution at your request
13 except for those people who do not want to be on
14 the resolution. If they would signify it to the
15 desk that they don't want to be on the
16 resolution before we conclude this session,
17 we'll handle it that way.
18 Thank you, Senator Bruno.
19 Senator Sears.
20 Chair recognizes Senator Sears.
21 SENATOR SEARS: Mr. President. I
22 wish to call up Calendar Number 499, Assembly
23 Print Number 2471A.
5100
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
2 will read.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 499, by
4 Member of the Assembly Lafayette, Assembly Print
5 2741A, an act to amend the Personal Property
6 Law, in relation to a buyer's right to cancel a
7 telephone sale.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Sears.
10 SENATOR SEARS: I now move to
11 reconsider the vote by which this Assembly bill
12 was the substituted for my bill, Senate Print
13 Number 1663A, on April the 26th, 1995.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
16 (The Secretary called the roll on
17 reconsideration.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
20 is before the house.
21 Senator Sears.
22 SENATOR SEARS: I now move that
23 Assembly Bill Number 2471A be recommitted to the
5101
1 Committee on Consumers Protection and my Senate
2 bill be restored to the order of Second Report
3 Calendar.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Assembly bill is recommitted; Senate bill is
6 substituted on Second Calendar.
7 Senator Bruno, we have two
8 substitutions at the desk if you'd like to deal
9 with those at the present time.
10 SENATOR BRUNO: Please make the
11 substitutions.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
13 will read.
14 THE SECRETARY: On page number 4,
15 Senator Maltese moves to discharge, from the
16 Committee on Elections, Assembly Bill Number
17 4959 and substitute it for the identical bill,
18 Calendar 602.
19 On page 20, Senator Volker moves
20 to discharge, from the Committee on Higher
21 Education, Assembly Bill Number 2444 and
22 substitute it for the identical Third Reading
23 Calendar 103.
5102
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
2 objection, substitutions are ordered.
3 Senator Bruno, that brings us to
4 the calendar.
5 SENATOR BRUNO: And now, Mr.
6 President, can we take up the noncontroversial
7 calendar.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
9 will read the noncontroversial calendar.
10 THE SECRETARY: On page 19,
11 Calendar Number 65, by Senator Kuhl, Senate
12 Print 1475, an act to amend the Agriculture and
13 Markets Law and the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
14 relation to exempting farm vehicles.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
17 bill aside.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 120, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 334A, an act
20 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation
21 to the recommendations made by the Metropolitan
22 Transportation Authority Inspector General.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
5103
1 will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
9 is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 156.
12 SENATOR LEVY: Lay it aside at
13 the request of the Comptroller for the day.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
15 bill aside for the day.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 199, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 1969,
18 an act to amend the Family Court Act, in
19 relation to notice provided to noncustodial
20 parent.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
22 will read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5104
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
3 roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll.)
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
7 is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 202, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2117, an
10 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation
11 to procedures for the temporary removal of a
12 child with consent.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
14 will read the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
16 act shall take effect on the 90th day.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
18 roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll.)
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
22 is passed.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5105
1 203, by Member of the Assembly Sanders, Assembly
2 Print 3749, an act to amend the Social Services
3 Law, in relation to persons required to report
4 cases of suspected child abuse or maltreatment.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
6 will read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect on the 90th day.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 244, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 1102A, an act
17 authorizing the Education Department to
18 apportion certain transportation aid to the
19 Amherst Central School District.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
21 a local fiscal impact note at the desk.
22 Secretary will read the last
23 section.
5106
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
4 roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll.)
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
8 is passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 336, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3668, an act
11 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in
12 relation to improving the agricultural districts
13 program.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
16 bill aside.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 356, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 3628, an
19 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to a
20 tax deferred annuity program under the board of
21 education retirement system.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
5107
1 bill aside.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 357, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 3653, an
4 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security
5 Law, in relation to permitting pensioners who
6 enter into a marriage following retirement.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
8 will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 377, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 3941A, an act
19 to amend the Education Law, in relation to
20 directing the Commissioner of Education to
21 include rules concerning the maximum speeds of
22 school vehicles.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
5108
1 will read the last section.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it aside.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
4 bill aside at the request of Senator Dollinger.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 389, by
6 Senator Volker, Senate Print 3179, an act to
7 amend the Penal Law, in relation to offenses
8 regarding unauthorized recordings.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
10 will read the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This
12 act shall take effect on the first day of
13 November.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
19 is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 393, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 2729, an
22 act to amend the Civil Service Law and other
23 laws, relating to service in the Merchant
5109
1 Marine.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
3 will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 16. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 397, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 3632, an act
14 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation
15 to authorizing the Dormitory Authority to
16 construct and finance all necessary and related
17 facilities for the Rosalind and Joseph Gurwin
18 Jewish Geriatric Center.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
20 will read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5110
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
5 is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 413, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4048, an act
8 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law and Chapter
9 713 of the Laws of 1988, amending the Vehicle
10 and Traffic Law, relating to the ignition inter
11 lock device program.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
13 will read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll.)
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
21 is passed.
22 Senator Bruno, that completes the
23 noncontroversial calendar.
5111
1 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President.
2 Can we now take up the controversial calendar.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
4 will read the controversial calendar.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 65, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 1475, an act
7 to amend the Agricultural and Markets Law and
8 the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation to
9 exempting farm vehicles from motor vehicle
10 financial security.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
12 Senator Kuhl, there's been a request for an
13 explanation of Senate Bill 3668 -- excuse me.
14 I'm sorry, Calendar 65.
15 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you, Mr.
16 President. This bill is really very simple in
17 the proposal. The State of New York several
18 years ago adopted what's commonly referred to as
19 "farm plate registration legislation." This
20 particular section of the law that's been in
21 existence, as I said, for several years allows
22 for those vehicles which are used by our farmers
23 on a very limited basis throughout different
5112
1 parts of the year, generally during the initial
2 planting and then during the harvesting process,
3 over a span of about three or four or five
4 months of the year within certain limited kind
5 of circumstances.
6 What we did last year was we
7 attempted to bring them into certain kinds of
8 regulations that the federal government was
9 suggesting for safety purposes, and one of the
10 portions of the bill that we adopted last year
11 was specifically to require them to provide
12 liability insurance on those vehicles which had
13 never been required before. What this bill does
14 is attempt to correct that imposition of a
15 mandate on those people out there who are really
16 not causing any particular difficulty and were,
17 for the most part, insured under general
18 liability policies to be able to go back to that
19 particular position that they found themselves
20 in prior to January of this year when the bill
21 that we had passed last year took effect.
22 What we have found is that, in
23 many cases, the insurance that is being
5113
1 required, the premium, is actually more than
2 what the vehicle is actually worth, and we're
3 also finding that there is a very difficult time
4 for many farmers to find the availability of
5 this insurance, so it puts our farmers in a
6 position where they're asked to violate the law
7 if they are going to continue to provide a
8 service and an occupation to this state.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
10 Senator Paterson.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
12 President. Would Senator Kuhl yield for a
13 question?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
15 Will you yield, Senator Kuhl?
16 SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy
17 to, Mr. President.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
19 Senator Kuhl. The New York State Trial Lawyers
20 Association has a memorandum in opposition, and
21 it is their position and their memorandum that
22 the passing of the 1994 legislation to which you
23 just referred had the explicit understanding
5114
1 that there would be a mandatory -- minimum
2 liability insurance would be quid pro quo. Is
3 that your understanding?
4 SENATOR KUHL: I'm not the
5 beneficiary of that memorandum, so I don't know
6 what they specifically said. But it was not my
7 recollection that they were involved in
8 negotiations of the bill last year, Senator, so
9 I don't know that that was one of the premises
10 under which the bill was passed.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
12 Senator.
13 Mr. President, if Senator Kuhl
14 would continue to yield.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
16 Senator Kuhl, will you continue to yield?
17 SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy
18 to, Mr. President.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Kuhl,
20 in your remarks just then -- and I may have
21 missed this, so I am really just asking for a
22 clarification -- you said that we are making
23 some corrections in this legislation to comply
5115
1 with the federal standards. The federal
2 standards, though, don't apply to removing the
3 minimum liability insurance, do they?
4 SENATOR KUHL: They do not. They
5 do not. The standards, Senator, for the benefit
6 of your information -- as I understand it, the
7 standards that were set out, primarily, were not
8 aimed at the farm vehicle exemption.
9 As a matter of fact, there is a
10 provision in the statute, as I understand it,
11 that would allow this state to totally exempt
12 farm-plated registered vehicles. That was not
13 the decision of this state to do that under the
14 former administration. So the only availability
15 to try to lessen the burden of the
16 implementation of those requirements was by
17 legislative activity which took two years for us
18 to bring about and that occurred last year.
19 One of the instances which we
20 prior thought would not cause a problem to our
21 farming community was the requirement for this
22 financial security through insurance
23 provisions. We are now finding out that that
5116
1 was not true, that that is causing tremendous
2 financial hardship to many of our farmers, and
3 there really is no basis by which we're finding
4 that there is the need for that.
5 When you look at the accident
6 rates -- and that's the reason for the federal
7 legislation was to try to cut down and make the
8 travel on our highways safer -- you find that
9 the farming community is far less susceptible to
10 having accidents, particularly as they relate to
11 the farm-plated registrations. I think the
12 average rate is something like -- of the
13 registered motor vehicle operators in this
14 state, roughly 5 percent of them on an annual
15 basis have an accident. What we found
16 statistically was something like .15 percent of
17 the farm-plated vehicles had accidents of one
18 nature or another, and most of them were less
19 than severe.
20 So that the coverage that was
21 previously provided by the general liability
22 policies that most farmers had we're finding was
23 more than sufficient and there wasn't the real
5117
1 need for a specific requirement for each one of
2 these farm-plated registered vehicles to have
3 its own separate insurance policy.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5 Senator Paterson.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
7 President. If Senator Kuhl will continue to
8 yield.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
10 Senator Kuhl, will you continue to yield?
11 SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy
12 to.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
14 Senator Paterson.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator,
16 I can understand why you wrote this
17 legislation. If by my quick calculations an
18 accident from a farm-plated vehicle being the
19 source occurs 1/34th the time that a regular
20 registered vehicle does, then I can see why you
21 would want to make the change.
22 But just so that we have an
23 understanding here, one of the comments that you
5118
1 made previously was that the -- often, the
2 insurance costs more than the vehicle itself;
3 and I just wanted to suggest, and see what you
4 thought about this, that there are plenty of
5 vehicles around the state in which the insurance
6 probably costs more than the vehicle, but I
7 don't think that the cost of the vehicle
8 necessarily relates to the insurance.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: Is
10 there a question, Senator Paterson?
11 SENATOR PATERSON: I wanted to
12 know if that was not the case.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
14 Senator Kuhl.
15 SENATOR KUHL: I really haven't
16 looked at the other areas of the state and the
17 actual value of vehicles and the cost of the
18 premiums as it relates to a comparison with the
19 farm-plated vehicles. I simply brought that up
20 because I thought that Senator Paterson has been
21 more than kind to us in the past to give us what
22 I would call very significant pieces of
23 information relative to history of the state and
5119
1 things of that nature, so I wanted him to be
2 fully informed with the factual information
3 behind this, and I thought that would be a nice
4 piece of information that he would like to know.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
6 Senator Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
8 President. I am enlightened, and if Senator
9 Kuhl would continue to yield.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
11 Senator Kuhl?
12 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, I continue to
13 yield.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I
15 think you perhaps addressed most of this issue
16 by arguing the frequency of accidents, and so I
17 can understand that -- I guess these vehicles
18 don't travel on the regular roadways that much,
19 and they occupy most of their time, actually, on
20 farmland. But there is a little bit of a
21 concern because, when they are on the regular
22 roads, they observe the regular speed limit and
23 the fact that since they travel at a slow speed
5120
1 from time to time that can actually be somewhat
2 of a hazard to other motorists.
3 From what you are saying, that
4 has not resulted in very many accidents if
5 it's .15 percent of the total number of
6 farm-plated vehicles that actually exist.
7 What I think I'm really a little
8 bit afraid of is not, perhaps, the ambit and
9 scope of the legislation that you've issued in
10 this particular case but where it might actually
11 wind up. In other words, that any kind of
12 vehicular owner that can document some way that
13 they are not as hazardous or they are not
14 operating a vehicle that's as hazardous as
15 others can now carve out in our state Insurance
16 Law somewhat of a niche, so to speak, so that
17 they can reduce their minimum insurance
18 coverage.
19 I guess all this has to end in a
20 question somewhere, Senator Kuhl; and as I
21 continue to think of one, I just wanted to ask
22 you whether you think that this is the limit of
23 the legislation, or do you think this opens the
5121
1 door for, perhaps, passage of legislation that
2 would actually impede those who become victims
3 of accidents from receiving insurance coverage?
4 SENATOR KUHL: Senator Paterson,
5 I would not be nervous about the setting of
6 precedent and then opening the door to other
7 groups coming in and asking to be relieved of
8 the financial security commitment; and I say
9 that because that has been the law in the State
10 of New York that farm-plated vehicles have not
11 had to have specific liability coverage for them
12 until we passed a bill that became effective in
13 January, just three months ago, of this year.
14 What I would say to you, just
15 statistically, Senator Paterson -- this would be
16 according to my statistics that we had for the
17 last year where all the data has been
18 accumulated -- there were something like -- just
19 slightly less than 26,000 registered farm-plated
20 vehicles. Now, these are vehicles like a big
21 old dump truck that's going to carry watermelons
22 from the field back to the farm so that they
23 then can be moved to a big 18-wheeler transport
5122
1 commercial operator that's going to take these
2 to market whether it's in New York City or
3 Chicago or Florida, wherever it happens to be.
4 There is a specific limit that these vehicles
5 have to plot out. They have to file a statement
6 as to where they travel. They are limited as to
7 the mileage from the base farm where they can
8 go.
9 And what we're looking at is a
10 way of trying to, as we have with regard to the
11 compliance -- with some of the equipment
12 compliance rules that we have -- we have
13 vehicles that, for instance, drive down into a
14 field. They get involved in the mud and in
15 getting out of the mud, all of a sudden a brake
16 light or something like that is broken away, or
17 a bumper or something like that. Well, the
18 minute they come back on the road, they're in
19 violation. But there's no way for them to get
20 back to where it's to be repaired without being
21 in violation, so the farm plate registration was
22 put into place so that there would be minor
23 kinds of variances from, say, the requirements
5123
1 that would allow them to operate, operate
2 efficiently without causing them great
3 impediment.
4 That's what this is all about.
5 As I say, I'm not worried about this bringing
6 about an onslaught of trying to vary the actual
7 financial insurance regulatory controls. See,
8 what you have to think about is from the other
9 side.
10 I know the trial lawyers would
11 like to say -- well, they'd like to have this
12 big pot of money out there that they can sue, so
13 that when they sue and they get their one-third
14 contingency fee that they know they're going to
15 get money from an insurance company. Okay.
16 Keep this thought in mind. If,
17 in fact, that insurance policy is not in place,
18 who ends up bearing the financial
19 responsibility? The farmer himself. He will,
20 if they don't carry the insurance policy -- and
21 most of them do in some general liability form.
22 If they don't have that, then what do they put
23 up for the offering if they are negligent to the
5124
1 point that they're going to have a recovery or a
2 judgment granted against them? They put up the
3 farm. Most of these people are not willing to
4 lose their farm over something like this. So
5 they will either provide the coverage or, in
6 fact, they will provide the farm as an
7 alternative.
8 Now, most of these people don't
9 go out to violate the law; and, as I said, out
10 of those 26,000 registered, there were 39
11 accidents in 1991. So it's a relatively small
12 piece of what we're dealing with here.
13 And what we're trying to do is
14 take this back to the way it was four months ago
15 and allow it to operate.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
17 Senator Paterson.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
19 much, Mr. President. I believe that Senator
20 Leichter would like to be recognized.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 Senator Leichter.
5125
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
2 Kuhl would yield, please.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
4 Senator Kuhl, do you yield?
5 SENATOR KUHL: I will be happy to
6 yield to Senator Leichter.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: I have been
8 listening very carefully to your very articulate
9 answers to the questions that Senator Paterson
10 asked, and some of the things you said just
11 piqued my interest on this bill.
12 If I understand what you're
13 saying is that many of the farmers that own
14 these farm vehicles presently carry
15 comprehensive liability insurance. Is that
16 correct?
17 SENATOR KUHL: That's my
18 understanding, Senator.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Now, if they
20 carry that insurance, doesn't that meet the
21 requirement of this law -
22 SENATOR KUHL: No.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- that they
5126
1 be insured?
2 SENATOR KUHL: No. Because it
3 says each specific farm-plated registered
4 vehicle has to have an insurance policy on it
5 not a general comprehensive. That's the mistake
6 we made, Senator.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay.
8 SENATOR KUHL: That's the mistake
9 we made that we're trying to correct through
10 this legislation.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if I
12 carry comprehensive insurance and now the law
13 requires that that is not sufficient but that
14 I've got to cover each of my vehicles, the
15 additional cost must be minimal because the
16 essential nature of the coverage really doesn't
17 change. If you carry comprehensive insurance,
18 you are engaged in an accident, I assume the
19 insurance is written in such a way that it would
20 cover that accident.
21 But now we say each vehicle has
22 to have its own insurance policy. But I would
23 assume the limits -- in fact, it's clear,
5127
1 because the limits are very minimal, as you
2 know, that the limits are certainly less than
3 what the general coverage is. All you've got to
4 do is specify each vehicle. That, to my mind,
5 can not conceivably increase the premium by very
6 much, if at all.
7 SENATOR KUHL: I'm not so sure
8 that your assumption is correct, Senator.
9 The information that I have been
10 given is that when you start to go away from the
11 general liability policy and you have a law,
12 which we adopted in this house last year, and
13 provide specifically that each farm-plated
14 registered vehicle will have its own policy, now
15 you start to deal with issues like, "Who drives
16 these vehicles?" Okay.
17 We have -- we have -- and the
18 farming community had a great deal of difficulty
19 getting help. It's been a major issue, and you
20 have, Senator, supported in the budgets that we
21 have passed programs that essentially have
22 allowed for training programs to bring new labor
23 to the farming community.
5128
1 What I'm saying to you is that
2 if, in fact, an 18-year-old, 19-year-old,
3 somebody under the age of 25, is now going to be
4 responsible for driving this tractor with a
5 wagon behind it with watermelons on it to the
6 farm from the field, all of a sudden you start
7 to get into a different kind of a
8 classification, and the experience is showing us
9 -- and, in fact, sometimes insurance is not
10 available; that's number 2, but number 1 -- that
11 the cost of providing individual insurance for
12 each one of these vehicles that's only used on a
13 limited basis is very expensive, and it's a new
14 kind of cost, a mandate -- a mandate, if you
15 will, coming from this chamber upon a lot of
16 individuals out there that is extremely costly.
17 What we're trying to do is just
18 to take us back to where we were three months
19 ago, remove this impediment to the continuation
20 of agricultural industry in this state and make
21 it as it was.
22 We have no -- we have no reason,
23 Senator, and that's what I'm saying here. This
5129
1 is why I presented the bill. This is not a
2 safety issue. That's not why it was brought
3 up. It's not a question of not having the
4 resources if there is an accident. It's a
5 question of simply imposing a mandate that has
6 no basis factually for initialing.
7 Because, again, as I reiterated
8 to Senator Paterson, if you look at the
9 comparative accident rates, this grouping of
10 registered motor vehicles compared to the
11 average motorist in this state, you will find
12 that they are I think he said 1/34th. I don't
13 know whether his math is correct or not. I
14 assume it is. I have never known him to distort
15 anything at all, and I have no reason to
16 challenge that, but it is significantly less.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
18 President. If Senator Kuhl will continue to
19 yield.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
21 Senator yield? Senator Cook, do you yield?
22 SENATOR KUHL: (There was no
23 response.)
5130
1 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: He
2 will yield.
3 SENATOR KUHL: I will be happy
4 to.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm not an
6 expert on insurance, and I see that Senator
7 Velella isn't here but Senator Solomon is, and
8 maybe they can help me.
9 But I have a lot of difficulty
10 understanding the arguments that you are
11 making. If, in fact -- and I believe that to be
12 the case -- farm vehicles are involved in
13 relatively few accidents -- and the reason for
14 that is because it's rare that they are on the
15 road. They are usually on the fields. So the
16 extent of the possible liability is rather
17 small. That certainly must be taken into
18 account by the people who rate what the premium
19 is going to be.
20 When you and I buy insurance,
21 we're asked questions: "How do you use your
22 car? Where do you drive it?" and so on. If you
23 show that you rarely drive your car, your
5131
1 insurance is going to be somewhat less.
2 Somebody like you who drives it here every week,
3 I assume that you come under a qualification -
4 or classification that imposes rather high
5 premiums on you.
6 But all of that, Senator, is also
7 taken into account when you write the general
8 liability insurance, the fact that the vehicle
9 may be driven by a 17-year-old or an 18-year-old
10 is something that is considered when they rate
11 the general liability.
12 My point is that I just can't see
13 that this particular bill imposes a much greater
14 premium on those farmers who have the general
15 liability. The concern really is that some
16 farmers do not have general liability coverage;
17 and now, under your bill, they will not have any
18 coverage whatsoever.
19 So I guess my question is, and
20 maybe -- I don't know whether Senator Solomon
21 will yield and whether my understanding or my
22 guessing I should say of insurance is correct,
23 but -
5132
1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: But
3 wouldn't -- Senator Solomon, if you would yield
4 maybe to the lucidation of both Senator Kuhl and
5 myself. But wouldn't, as a practical matter,
6 that if you have general liability insurance and
7 now along comes the state Legislature and says
8 you got to get specific insurance covering every
9 farm vehicle that you use, that the increase
10 such as it would be is mainly related to
11 administrative costs of the insurance company
12 and that, therefore, there should not be a great
13 increase in the premium?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
15 Senator Solomon, would you have yield to that
16 question?
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Mr.
18 President.
19 Senator Leichter, the answer is,
20 I think, a little more complex. I believe that
21 in most cases general liability insurance will
22 not cover motor vehicles. So the question is
23 whether or not the vehicles are even covered.
5133
1 You have to take a look at the policies, and I
2 don't know what policies are purchased and what
3 the riders are in the individual cases.
4 The other part of your question
5 is, based on experience, your rates will be
6 relatively low, based on the amount of time
7 driven, et cetera, but you have to look at the
8 general liability policy.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
10 Senator Leichter.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
12 President, just briefly on the bill.
13 I think Senator Solomon -- and
14 I'm grateful to him for explaining it -- points
15 out something that is even more serious than the
16 point that I was trying to make which dealt just
17 with the economics. He points out that general
18 liability may conceivably not cover these farm
19 vehicles which is maybe one of the reasons that
20 we passed last year's bill.
21 So that when Senator Kuhl says,
22 "Well, you really don't need the coverage for
23 the individual farm vehicles because most
5134
1 farmers are covered by general liability
2 insurance," if Senator Solomon is correct, then
3 that general liability insurance would not cover
4 these farm vehicles.
5 Now, Senator, the fact that these
6 vehicles are driven really very rarely and
7 infrequently on public highways or certainly for
8 very short distances would mean really that the
9 amount of premium would be relatively low.
10 Because, certainly, the insurance company takes
11 a look at what the usage of the vehicle is.
12 My concern and the reason I
13 oppose this bill is that we also have to provide
14 some coverage, some protection for the people
15 who are on the road; and while my experience has
16 been -- and as you know is I have a place in the
17 farm country -- that people who drive these farm
18 vehicles are very careful. They're extremely
19 courteous. They try to pull over so that they
20 don't impede traffic and so on.
21 But every once in awhile
22 accidents do occur, and we have to be concerned
23 about the people that are involved in those
5135
1 accidents or injured as a consequence of these
2 accidents through no fault of their own who are
3 probably farmers also or who are people related
4 to farmers, and we need to be concerned about
5 their protection, too.
6 So I think we were right when we
7 passed that bill last year. I think we ought to
8 require that farm vehicles be insured for the
9 protection of the overall public, and I think if
10 you look at it the cost just cannot be that
11 great. I don't think it is; and as Senator
12 Paterson pointed out, many people in this state
13 pay an insurance that is greater than the book
14 value of their car. My car has reached just
15 about that point. I hope on that occasion you
16 will put in a bill that will provide some
17 relief.
18 In all seriousness, I think we
19 need to look at the broader public, and the
20 public deserves the protection that the present
21 law gives.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 Read the last section.
5136
1 Oh, excuse me. Senator
2 Dollinger.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
4 President. Would Senator Kuhl yield to just one
5 question on this to make -- make sure I
6 understand it?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
8 Senator Kuhl, will you yield?
9 SENATOR KUHL: Absolutely.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So I
11 understand this bill, through you, Mr.
12 President.
13 This requires that before the
14 license of a farm vehicle be issued we now
15 require that they have vehicle coverage in order
16 to get the license plate? Is that what is
17 currently required by law in this state?
18 SENATOR KUHL: Procedurally,
19 Senator Dollinger, I don't know that I can
20 answer that. All I can tell you is the law
21 requires now that a farm-plated vehicle that's
22 registered that it have a specific insurance
23 policy that names that vehicle. Now, as to
5137
1 whether or not you can get a license before and
2 you have to show proof of insurance, I can't
3 tell you what the procedural aspects of that is.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The reason
5 why I asked -- on the bill, Mr. President -- the
6 actual text of the bill makes reference to the
7 fact that they are registered pursuant to
8 Section 13 -- Subdivision 13 of Section 401 of
9 the Vehicle and Traffic Law, and I assume the
10 reason why this problem came up was because they
11 were looking for renewal of licenses, and the
12 state has denied them the renewal of those
13 licenses until they present, like every other
14 motor vehicle would in this state, evidence of
15 insurance coverage for the vehicle.
16 Through you, Mr. President. That
17 wasn't really posed as a question; but if
18 Senator Kuhl has information on that, I'd
19 appreciate it.
20 SENATOR KUHL: If I may respond
21 to that statement.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
23 Senator Kuhl.
5138
1 SENATOR KUHL: I don't believe
2 that that's necessarily true, Senator
3 Dollinger. We have -- as I mentioned, in 1991,
4 there were roughly 26,000 registered farm
5 vehicles. What we have done, because this law
6 now has taken in effect in January -- I'm sure
7 that there were other registered vehicles whose
8 registration was already in effect, and now what
9 we're doing is saying to these people who have
10 registered vehicles who have not had to have
11 specific insurance policies naming those
12 vehicles that, in fact, they have to have this
13 insurance.
14 These people -- I know some of
15 them have gone out to the insurance marketplace,
16 have sought out insurance and have had great,
17 great difficulty in finding a company that would
18 write the policy. Now, in one aspect we have
19 put one segment of this society in a position
20 that they, in fact, have gone out to get
21 insurance; they can't get it; so now what do you
22 do? Do you continue utilizing that farm vehicle
23 when you know it's registered properly and has
5139
1 been except that you haven't provided the
2 insurance? Or do you take it off the road
3 because you can't get insurance -- "road" so to
4 speak, from the farm field to the farm -- and
5 not use it so that it sits there as an item, an
6 asset, which has no value?
7 That's one aspect. Certainly,
8 there are others, and also those people who have
9 newly acquired farm vehicles who are looking to
10 go out and comply to this. But I can't speak to
11 whether or not these people have been denied a
12 registration because they haven't provided the
13 actual little insurance rider that says, "I have
14 insurance".
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
16 President, on the bill. I'm going to vote
17 against this bill. I favor the concept of
18 expanding liability coverage for vehicles that
19 are out on the road. I think the one danger,
20 and Senator Kuhl, I think, hit it right on the
21 head -- I mean the dilemma is, if you don't have
22 coverage, you put your own personal assets at
23 risk if there is an accident, and one of the
5140
1 things we have done in this state through
2 mandatory insurance laws is that we don't put a
3 plaintiff, an injured party, in the position of
4 having to take your farm as a way to settle his
5 or her claim. There is liability insurance
6 available from which there is a pot of money
7 that will allow the plaintiff to be compensated
8 without putting them in a position of having to
9 take over a dairy farm or a truck farm in order
10 to recover a proper return.
11 So I generally favor the
12 expansion of mandatory motor vehicle
13 indemnification, and I also favor that with
14 respect to other operations, including dram
15 shops, so -
16 I think this is a step backward,
17 and I am going to be voting in the negative.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
19 Senator Johnson.
20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President.
21 I have been listening to this debate. I felt I
22 could contribute to it, but I didn't really want
23 to intervene, but I think it's pretty obvious
5141
1 that we need somebody who knows a little more
2 about the procedures, both with insurance and
3 farm operations, than has been evidenced here by
4 the debate so far.
5 I have operated a farm. I worked
6 on farms. I have run an insurance agency and
7 have some knowledge of the situation which we're
8 addressing here.
9 Farm comprehensive liability
10 coverage not only -- it covers all the farm
11 operations and all the equipment of the farm,
12 obviously. We see farmers going down the road,
13 towing a plow, towing a cultivator, towing some
14 sort of a harvesting machine. We know that they
15 have trucks which are part of the operation.
16 They go out in the field with a truck, load it
17 up, bring it back to the farm. They may have
18 several locations on the same road.
19 Now, all their equipment is
20 covered. Whether they're plowing or planting or
21 cultivating or harvesting, or whatever they're
22 towing down the road from one point to the
23 other, is covered under comprehensive general
5142
1 farm liability, as you can well imagine, because
2 these farmers are not total fools. They have
3 assets worth $100,000 up to a million dollars,
4 their total operation. They are not going to
5 put that at risk by not having any protection.
6 The difference is -- and, yes,
7 you can take a farm truck. You could go in and
8 you can say it's a farm truck and you just hand
9 it, give him a dollar, and they'll give you the
10 plate. They don't ask about insurance, because
11 they know it's generally covered under the
12 liability policy.
13 In fact, the farmers are very
14 concerned about protecting themselves, and the
15 only people who didn't know whether or not there
16 was insurance, perhaps, would be the trial
17 lawyers, and I see they're taking quite an
18 interest in this bill. I think it's a very
19 inappropriate interest. We shouldn't be
20 concerned about other interests who want to feed
21 off people, but we should be concerned about the
22 farm operation, and I say that if they're smart
23 enough to operate a farm they are probably smart
5143
1 enough to look out for their own interest
2 without somebody in this chamber saying you got
3 to buy liability insurance.
4 If you're going to require that
5 on the farm truck, why not on the tractor? Why
6 not on the seeder? Why not on your cow that
7 wanders in the road or your horse and somebody
8 runs into it and sues you because you have an
9 animal running loose in the street? I'm just
10 saying all those things are already covered.
11 Most people look out for that.
12 The bill last year was
13 inappropriate. I didn't take any particular
14 interest in it because -- I have a personal
15 interest. I didn't vote against it. I just let
16 it go. If that was what the sponsor thought,
17 and the Farm Bureau and other people felt it was
18 appropriate, I didn't speak on it.
19 I think I have to speak now
20 because we're just reverting back to the
21 situation where it was before, where there was
22 no problem. So we have created a problem.
23 Let's solve the problem and support this bill.
5144
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3 Senator Leichter.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
5 would Senator Johnson yield?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
7 Senator Johnson, will you yield?
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, thank
9 you for the explanation. You certainly
10 clarified one point, and you obviously disagree
11 with what Senator Solomon says; and I accept
12 what you say, that if a farmer now has general
13 liability coverage it will include all of the
14 farm vehicles, including those vehicles that we
15 are talking about. Did I understand you
16 correctly?
17 SENATOR JOHNSON: That's correct.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Will you
19 answer the question that I raised with Senator
20 Kuhl; and that is, if you have that general
21 liability insurance and now the Legislature
22 requires that you separately insure each of your
23 vehicles and you go to your insurance company
5145
1 and say, "Hey, guys, you've already insured me
2 but now you have to specify that all three of
3 these trucks that go in the fields and pick up
4 watermelon have coverage," why would that
5 increase the total amount other than the
6 administrative expenses involved for the
7 insurance company in writing maybe three
8 policies or putting riders onto the general
9 coverage that you have, the general liability
10 coverage, to indicate that each of these
11 vehicles is covered?
12 SENATOR KUHL: Probably because
13 it creates an underwriting problem. Because,
14 right now, a farm is based on the size of the
15 farm and its operation and that premium covers
16 everything. They don't ask who's driving the
17 tractor, who's planting the seeds, who's driving
18 the hay wagon back to the farm. There's no
19 information on individual drivers or operators.
20 Then, you would have to get all
21 that information. You don't even know who you
22 are going to have because they're seasonal help
23 involved in these things. There's equipment
5146
1 maybe you might borrow from a neighboring farmer
2 that's not registered. You can't -- when your
3 wagon breaks down or your tractor breaks down,
4 have you got to call your insurance company or
5 somebody and tell them, "I'm going to change a
6 wagon on my policy or change a tractor on my
7 policy"?
8 It's very cumbersome and involved
9 and it costs money to have people shuffle all
10 these papers, and the result wouldn't be any
11 different, except that you couldn't get your
12 crop in while the rain was coming down because
13 your equipment broke and you couldn't use
14 someone else's, perhaps.
15 So I'm just saying there's a lot
16 of complications involved in underwriting which
17 are not present when you underwrite a policy
18 now, which you shouldn't introduce into the
19 equation.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
21 If Senator Johnson will yield to at least one
22 more question.
23 Senator, right now, when you get
5147
1 that general liability coverage and, as you say,
2 you have to indicate the size of the farm, it
3 would seem to me you would also have to indicate
4 the number of farm vehicles that you have.
5 Isn't that the case?
6 SENATOR JOHNSON: No, it's not
7 the case. But if it were the case, it could be
8 done; but I'm saying -- you would have to
9 indicate then you get new vehicles, you take old
10 ones off. You know how farmers do. A salesman
11 gets ahold of him, "Your tractor's getting kind
12 of old, John. You need a new one. Yeah, I'll
13 give you 3,000 on this one and it's 300 a
14 month." And he'll say, "Okay. Drop it off."
15 And they'll tow your other one away, and there
16 you go.
17 So I mean it's a lot simpler
18 operation now under the insurance than it would
19 be if you have to name the equipment and the
20 drivers and everything else. That's what I'm
21 saying, Senator. Maybe they would tell you, "We
22 don't want any 17-year-olds driving." Well, the
23 17-year-olds are doing all the work on the farms
5148
1 in the summer. Then they wouldn't be able to do
2 that, for example, and don't quote me on the
3 age. It could be 18, but I'm saying you don't
4 have a steady crew all year long because you
5 plant in the spring, you harvest in the fall,
6 and the rest of the time you push the snow
7 around in your yard.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
9 Senator Leichter.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you,
11 Senator Johnson. I just want to point out
12 again, if I understood what Senator Johnson said
13 and boiling it down to its essential, it does
14 become a matter solely of administration and
15 maybe some additional work for the farmers for
16 those -- and that's probably 90 percent -- who
17 have general liability coverage, so they are
18 really not bothered by this bill except they
19 maybe have to do some additional work.
20 But the problem that we tried to
21 address last year and the hole that you are
22 going to create if you pass this bill is that
23 those farmers who don't have the general
5149
1 liability coverage then will be totally
2 uninsured, and that leaves the public at risk,
3 and that, I think, is the problem that I see
4 with this bill.
5 Additionally, as Senator
6 Dollinger points out, you know, to say to
7 people, "Well, they've always got the family
8 farm; you can go and try to execute your
9 judgment against them on the family farm," I
10 don't think that's an answer. I think the
11 public needs protection.
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, you
13 may not recall, it was not too many years ago
14 when there was no liability insurance required
15 for automobiles, and people bought coverage,
16 most responsible people -- who had something at
17 risk, that's true. Other people will have to
18 pursue the common law remedy that they've always
19 had of going to court and suing the responsible
20 person.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
22 Senator Leichter.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
5150
1 Johnson, just -- since I take it sort of that
2 was a question to me. You're right. We had no
3 liability insurance, and there were people who
4 suffered terrible injuries and damage and
5 economic loss, and they were unable to recover.
6 There were responsible people like you, Senator
7 Johnson, that always carried insurance and so
8 on; but you and I know that a certain percentage
9 of the population did not; and the same thing,
10 I'm sure, must be true about farm vehicles, and
11 I think we have an obligation to protect the
12 public; and when the costs, as I think I
13 established through my questions to you and to
14 Senator Kuhl, are relatively minor, it seems to
15 me that the balance really falls in favor of
16 protecting the public.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Senator Johnson?
19 (There was no response.)
20 Okay. Read the last section.
21 Excuse me. Senator Hoffmann.
22 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr.
23 President. I have listened with great interest,
5151
1 and there is one larger philosophical issue I
2 would ask some of my colleagues to consider
3 before casting a vote on this bill. We are
4 addressing the number 1 industry in New York
5 State, agriculture, as we take a look at this
6 bill; and regardless of the impact on individual
7 farmers, we have a responsibility in this house
8 and in the other house of the Legislature to do
9 what we can to ease some of the regulatory
10 burdens and to ease some of the financial
11 burdens on the industry of agricultural just as
12 we try to ease the burden on other industries in
13 New York State.
14 I think it's been well-documented
15 and there is great sympathy in this chamber for
16 the plight of farmers. But let's not make light
17 of that plight in this debate. Even minor
18 inconveniences can cost farmers an inordinate
19 amount of money. Even minor inconveniences can
20 slow down their ability to attend to their
21 crops, to tend to their stock, and to get on
22 with the business of farming; and I would remind
23 everyone in this chamber that we already face a
5152
1 tremendous burden by Workers' Compensation
2 premiums affecting agriculture to the extent
3 that many farmers now say they are unable to pay
4 hired help the way they have in the past. They
5 are not able to keep them on as permanent
6 employees. The hired help has to either work
7 under the table in a few cases or they are
8 working as contract labor and are relatively
9 unemployed.
10 So while we have to look at the
11 larger issue of what we're doing for this
12 industry in the state, I would ask each of you
13 to consider yourself in the same situation if
14 you were a farmer and realize that any minor
15 inconvenience, any expense, that can be lifted
16 off the shoulders of farmers is in the best
17 interest not only of those farmers but of the
18 entire state; and I would urge all of my
19 colleagues to give this bill an opportunity and
20 to please send a message that we do support
21 agriculture in the New York State Senate by
22 voting yes.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5153
1 Senator Waldon.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
3 much, Mr. President.
4 To explain my vote.
5 Traditionally, since arriving in Albany, both in
6 the Assembly and in the Senate, I have strongly
7 supported agriculture and agricultural measures
8 for a lot of reasons:
9 One, I just think we must be
10 supportive of the "bread basket" of the state
11 and perhaps the nation. Two, I learned that
12 there are many constituents in the districts
13 that I have represented who are dramatically
14 impacted by this industry, and I'm not just
15 talking about the normal food stuff, but we have
16 coach laws, we have school children, so I try to
17 be aware of and supportive of whenever
18 possible.
19 However, the greater question
20 here is what happens to someone if they are
21 injured by one of these vehicles which may stray
22 off onto a public thoroughfare or somehow the
23 operator is negligent; and it seems to me that
5154
1 it would be better to protect the person injured
2 and to not allow the owner, farmer, business
3 person to escape liability or at least to escape
4 the proper and appropriate liability by not
5 having minimal threshold level coverage on each
6 of the vehicles operating in this agricultural
7 industry.
8 And, therefore, for those
9 reasons, I must vote no.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
11 Read the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
15 Call the roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Results.
19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
20 the negative on Calendar Number 65, Senators
21 Abate, Dollinger, Jones, Kruger, Leichter, Levy,
22 Smith, Solomon, Waldon.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5155
1 The bill is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Also, Senator
3 Montgomery. Ayes 47, nays 10.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
5 The bill is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 336, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3668, an act
8 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in
9 relation to improving the Agriculturals District
10 Program.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
13 Explanation, Senator Kuhl.
14 SENATOR KUHL: Yes, Mr.
15 President. Would Senator Paterson like the
16 short explanation or the long explanation?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Senator Paterson?
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I'm
20 always so enlightened when Senator Kuhl comes
21 down from ascension and is here with us on the
22 floor with the rest of us that I'd like to hear
23 the long explanation. I know it's not popular
5156
1 here, but I'm interested.
2 SENATOR KUHL: Senator Paterson,
3 this is a bill that essentially is a technical
4 corrections bill of a bill that we passed in
5 this house that eventually became law which was
6 called the Agricultural Farm Land Protection
7 Bill. It was adopted in 1992, with the addition
8 that there's the incorporation into this bill -
9 and I should mention, by the way, that this is a
10 departmental bill that has come from the
11 Department of Agriculture and Markets -- with
12 the addition that, included in this bill, is a
13 provision of another bill that we passed a
14 couple of months ago in this house that would
15 provide that an individual farmer in this case
16 who -- under the Ag Farm Land Protection Act of
17 1992, who is conducting the practice of farming
18 in one particular aspect, and where there has
19 been a question as to whether or not that was an
20 agriculturally sound practice, and the determin
21 ation has been made by the Commissioner of the
22 Department of Agriculture and Markets that, in
23 fact, it is an agriculturally sound practice,
5157
1 and where that individually farmer -- individual
2 farmer who is carrying on that agriculturally
3 accepted farm practice is challenged in the
4 court and is successful in defending that
5 challenge to what is, again, determined to be an
6 agriculturally accepted practice, that that
7 individual would be entire -- entitled to the
8 recovery of attorneys' fees that he incurred or
9 she incurred in defending that lawsuit.
10 Now, other than that substantial
11 change in the law, the rest of the provisions,
12 for the most part, are correcnical -- or I
13 should say technical corrections.
14 That was the short explanation.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
16 Senator Paterson.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I'm sure
18 that will suffice, Mr. President, if Senator
19 Kuhl would yield for a couple of short
20 questions.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
22 Senator Kuhl, will you yield?
23 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to.
5158
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Kuhl,
2 my concern with this bill -- and I think that
3 Senator Hoffmann was very eloquent and so were
4 you earlier in talking about the plight of
5 farmers and the value of the industry and how we
6 should not in any way mock it or cajole it in
7 our debate here, and I was persuaded actually to
8 vote for Calendar 65, but this bill, Calendar
9 336, in my opinion, sets up a standard that is
10 unfair on its face.
11 While the unsuccessful plaintiff
12 is liable for the fees accrued to the defendant,
13 you don't have in your bill an unsuccessful
14 defendant having to pay the legal fees of the
15 plaintiff.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO: Is
17 there a question, Senator Paterson?
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Is that fair?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
20 Senator Kuhl.
21 SENATOR KUHL: Well, it's
22 obvious, Senator, that I proposed the bill in
23 its current form so I would have to think that
5159
1 it was fair, but I do think it's fair because
2 what you have here is two prior determinations
3 as to what is generally acceptable as to the
4 accepted farming practice.
5 You have what's out there being
6 done, and you have a challenge to the -- I
7 should say a question being made of the
8 Commissioner. The Commissioner has the result
9 -- the opportunity at his -- under the former
10 law, to ask of the opinions of several advisory
11 groups which one of them would be the College of
12 Ag and Life Sciences at Cornell which is a land
13 grant, I'm sure, institution subsidized by the
14 state of New York, and then he makes the
15 determination as to -- or she makes the
16 determination as to whether or not that's
17 generally acceptable. So what you have is you
18 have a determination that's made, and then what
19 you have is a challenge in face of that
20 determination as to what is acceptable.
21 Now, what we're saying here is
22 you have a general practice being carried out by
23 the farming community, a challenge made to that,
5160
1 a determination by a commissioner as to whether
2 that's right or wrong, and then what you have is
3 the potential misuse certainly of the court
4 system by somebody who wants to pounce upon, if
5 you will, an independent farmer who doesn't have
6 unlimited resources like some of these groups
7 that challenge the farming community, and what
8 we're simply doing is imposing a frivolous
9 lawsuit, if you will, concept here saying that,
10 "Look, if you're going to challenge this
11 decision which has been made based upon sound
12 recommendations, then you have to know if you
13 don't succeed in the courtroom, that you're
14 going to be liable for the costs that were
15 incurred by the person defending the suit."
16 This is not a novel concept, and
17 I think that this concept is already written
18 into some portions of our laws dealing with
19 frivolous lawsuits. I think there's -- in the
20 medical liability malpractice provisions and
21 concepts that we've adopted here, there is a
22 provision dealing with that.
23 So what we're doing is not
5161
1 establishing a new precedent, certainly. What
2 we're doing is trying to embark upon a process
3 that will allow our farmers, individually and
4 independently, to be able to continue their
5 occupation without the threat of multiple
6 lawsuits and certainly the cost of defending
7 them.
8 What we have seen, Senator, and
9 what we are seeing now in the course of carrying
10 on the occupation of agriculture in this state
11 is, we are seeing mounting challenges. This was
12 one of the reasons that we passed the law in
13 1992, and this was to define a line as to what
14 was acceptable and what wasn't and to define
15 criteria as to what was acceptable and what
16 wasn't, to essentially establish essentially a
17 pattern by which people can pattern their
18 behavior and their occupation. So what we're
19 saying now is "Okay. Once that's established
20 and it's determined and now you want to
21 challenge that determination then, in fact, if
22 you're wrong, you ought to bear the cost of
23 that" because on the outset, it doesn't appear
5162
1 from the requirements that lead to that decision
2 that it would be a wrongful decision.
3 Now, certainly if somebody raises
4 a question and says, "Now, this is not a
5 generally accepted farming practice is the
6 terminology" and the Commissioner says, "You're
7 absolutely right, it is not", then that practice
8 will stop certainly, and the farmer will be
9 liable for any of his actions at that point.
10 That's a liability on one side.
11 But on the other side, if, in
12 fact, you carry it to the next step and you take
13 it to a court and you fail, then that's the same
14 thing tantamount to bringing a frivolous lawsuit
15 which currently this state of New York says that
16 you will bear the expense of that. Now, we
17 don't use that terminology in this proposal, but
18 the concept is the same.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
20 Senator Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
22 President.
23 If Senator Kuhl will continue to
5163
1 yield, then I can master the negotiation of the
2 interrogatory sentence.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
4 Senator Kuhl.
5 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to
6 yield.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Kuhl,
8 I want to discuss the actions of the Commission
9 er with you in a moment, but just to get back to
10 the question that I just asked you, many of the
11 plaintiffs in these cases, if I'm not correct,
12 are actually some of the same farmers or some of
13 the same rural residents as the individuals who
14 could be the object of the lawsuit and so, what
15 I'm saying is, don't you think there needs to be
16 equal protection regardless of who's initiating
17 the lawsuit?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
19 Senator Kuhl.
20 SENATOR KUHL: Well, I think
21 there is, Senator Paterson, and we were very,
22 very, very specific in the adoption of the law
23 back in 1992 to lay out these protections. I
5164
1 don't know whether you've had any real estate
2 closings or not lately, but you remember that
3 little statement that's required to be filed
4 with the deed, and it talks about whether or not
5 there are certain kinds of things that are
6 associated with this particular type of
7 property? Well, there's a requirement now that
8 we inform people that this is an agricultural
9 district that they're buying into. There's
10 notice that's required to be given prior to the
11 conclusion of any kind of a real estate
12 purchase.
13 What we have attempted to do is
14 to eliminate exactly what we have found is
15 happening, and that is people who move into a
16 rural area, all of a sudden they find out that
17 they don't like the dust that's in the air.
18 They don't like that smell that happens to be in
19 the air when there's this fertilizing process
20 going on which happens to be the spreading of
21 manure on land that may be 150 yards away from
22 them. They don't necessarily like the noise at
23 2:00 o'clock in the morning or 3:00 o'clock in
5165
1 the morning because they moved next to a
2 vineyard where there are grapes that are being
3 harvested and there are birds that are swooping
4 down on the grapes and eating the grapes, and so
5 they use these shotguns to scare the birds away.
6 Well, I can guarantee you that
7 when we dealt with this whole concept, we dealt
8 with, okay, what is a generally accepted farming
9 practice? Well, now, if you moved in next to me
10 and I had a vineyard and I didn't like
11 necessarily having you next to me, would it be
12 generally accepted that I started to scare these
13 birds away who don't fly after dark by shooting
14 this shotgun process off at 2:00 and 3:00 and
15 4:00 in the morning? Well, no, that's not
16 acceptable.
17 But my point to you is what we
18 tried to do in this whole bill that we adopted,
19 again back in 1992, was to build up a series of
20 protections for the people that were moving into
21 the communities so that they were well aware of
22 what they were going to be faced with. So when
23 you talk about rural residents being the ones
5166
1 who are challenging, say, what is a generally
2 accepted practice, by the time they get to that
3 point where they're an owner, they know it's
4 generally accepted and they have been forewarned
5 as to what's generally accepted.
6 So these people that embark upon
7 these lawsuits that we're finding, these are the
8 new neighbors who are coming out of the metro
9 politan areas who are looking for this pristine
10 farmland, that beautiful red barn, those black
11 and white cows on green grass with flowers
12 across the roads, okay? Now, all of a sudden
13 they find out that there's a particular odor
14 that they don't agree with or there is this
15 shaking of the land or these sounds that they
16 don't understand or this dust in the air.
17 What we tried to do in the law
18 was take that out. So we have given them
19 notice, and what we're saying now is if you want
20 to question that practice and you've gone and
21 you've gotten your decision from the
22 Commissioner of Agriculture, who says, No, this
23 has been going on by years and, yes, it's
5167
1 verified by the EPA and Ag and Markets. This is
2 standard process. This is what has to happen.
3 In fact, if you then decide that, No. That's
4 not, and I'm going to put this guy out of
5 business by taking him out to the court and then
6 once if I lose there, I'm going to take him on
7 to the Appellate Division and then on to the
8 Court of Appeals and I'll take him to the
9 Supreme Court, what we're saying is, Okay. You
10 can do that, but if you lose and you try to
11 bankrupt this farmer, you're going to pay the
12 costs because you're going to provide the fees
13 that he incurred in defending the suit if he is,
14 in fact, or she is successful.
15 That's what this concept is all
16 about.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
18 Senator Paterson.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
20 before continuing, I have to allow my colleagues
21 to know that, not since Sir Walter Scott's
22 Ivanhoe have I heard a more illustrative,
23 descriptive, poignant display of the fantasy of
5168
1 the urban dweller as to the nature of farming as
2 I have just heard from Senator Kuhl. That was
3 quite effective.
4 If he would continue to yield for
5 a question -
6 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
7 Senator Kuhl.
8 SENATOR KUHL: I'd be happy to.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Kuhl,
10 I direct you to Section 308, Subsection 2, of
11 the Agriculture Law which relates to what
12 provides a nuisance and the health conditions
13 that are created from a nuisance and ask you how
14 the Commissioner of Agriculture, ruling on what
15 is a sound farm practice, can have any idea of
16 what could constitute a serious health hazard,
17 which is part of the reason that some people sue
18 others for providing a nuisance?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
20 Senator Kuhl.
21 SENATOR KUHL: That was -- excuse
22 me, Senator Paterson. That was -- you're
23 referring to Section 308?
5169
1 SENATOR PATERSON: 308-2.
2 SENATOR KUHL: Subdivision 2.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: It mentions
4 wrongful death, Senator.
5 SENATOR KUHL: What particular
6 line, do you remember, Senator Paterson?
7 SENATOR PATERSON: It says
8 basically that nothing should be construed to
9 prohibit a party from recovering for wrongful
10 death on -- on -- due to a farm -- due to a
11 nuisance.
12 SENATOR KUHL: You know where in
13 the proposed bill it is? I'm having a hard time
14 finding it, Senator. That's the only problem.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm sorry,
16 Senator. This is in the Agriculture Law, and
17 the reason I was citing it -- maybe I'll just
18 explain it.
19 The reason I was citing it is -
20 what I was saying is that the Commissioner -
21 the question I'm asking you is, how can the
22 Commissioner, who may be able to determine what
23 is a sound farming practice -- I think there
5170
1 have been a number of sound farming practices
2 that we later, due to medical information and
3 due to rulings from the state Department of
4 Health, we found out that they were injurious to
5 other parties.
6 So what I'm saying is how can we
7 leave that under the jurisdiction of the
8 Commissioner, or how does just knowing that
9 something is a sound farming practice prohibit a
10 party from recovering on a nuisance action?
11 SENATOR KUHL: I think the
12 concept is -- and I'm -- I don't have the
13 immediate recollection of all of what Section
14 308, Subdivision 2, in the Ag and Markets Law
15 says, but the concept that we have dealt with in
16 this whole proposal and adoption of the law that
17 goes back to 1992, Senator, was that there were
18 essentially migrations of urban populations that
19 were moving to the rural area, and this urbani
20 zation, if you will, of the rural area of this
21 state was causing some difficulty between the
22 neighbors who were the new neighbors, people who
23 were purchasing land, and what we thought was
5171
1 the best way to deal with this was to try to
2 define a essentially set standard.
3 Now, the initial proposal that I
4 had before not only this house but was initially
5 proposed in the Assembly, was to define
6 immediately what was a generally accepted
7 farming practice; everything. If you were a
8 chicken farmer, fine. If you were a grape
9 grower, fine. If you were a dairy farmer, fine.
10 If you grew cash crops, fine. This is what was
11 generally accepted.
12 At that time, the Department told
13 us -- told me, specifically, that that was such
14 detail, and that was such an exhaustive project
15 to do that, that they would prefer to move away
16 from that definition because it varied in
17 different parts of the state. There are all
18 kinds of different areas geographically, and all
19 of those took into consideration different
20 generally accepted farming practices.
21 So what it eventually came down
22 through -- down to, I should say, through
23 negotiation was a determination yet to be
5172
1 defined upon request, and what we did was we set
2 up a -- some advisory groups, like the College
3 of Agriculture and Life Science at Cornell who,
4 as I said, was a land grant college that we
5 support and which is one of the preeminent
6 agricultural schools in this country, if not the
7 world. We thought that, if anybody knew what
8 was generally accepted and the modern
9 technology, they certainly would, and that the
10 Commissioner would be dependent upon them for
11 their advisory opinion.
12 But the concept was, here is a
13 current, in-place occupation that's being
14 carried on, and so let's define what they're all
15 about and if there is a challenge. The idea had
16 nothing to do about anything else other than
17 what was acceptable dealing with that
18 occupation.
19 And so we have addressed solely
20 that issue, what is acceptable from an environ
21 mental standpoint, from a business standpoint,
22 from all the kinds of basis of criteria upon
23 which the Commissioner might use to define that
5173
1 term, "generally accepted farming practice".
2 Now, that's the concept. I don't
3 know as I can specifically answer your question
4 as it relates to that provision of the law
5 because I don't have that in front of me, number
6 one, and I don't have that memorized.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
8 Senator Paterson.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
10 President.
11 Again, through you, Mr.
12 President, to Senator Kuhl. I think that the
13 spirit of your legislation is quite acceptable.
14 What you're trying to do is to really put a stop
15 to spurious lawsuits and really claims that have
16 no merit from individuals who would not
17 understand that this is a standard farming
18 practice. What I'm contending is that it's the
19 method of the legislation that is most
20 objectionable, and there are two real levels to
21 that objection.
22 The first one would be that the
23 Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets is able
5174
1 to determine what is a sound farming practice,
2 but that of and in itself does not let us know
3 whether or not the claim that this practice is a
4 nuisance is or is not viable. That's something
5 that the court would actually decide; and I
6 think Senator Kuhl and I would both agree that
7 the court would actually decide the merit of the
8 claim, but now we're talking about after the
9 court action and we assume that the plaintiff is
10 defeated. We're now saying that the ruling of
11 the Commissioner would now entitle the defendant
12 to receive court costs from the plaintiff; and
13 what I'm saying, Senator Kuhl, is that there
14 must be another way to accomplish the goal of -
15 of stopping spurious lawsuits rather than to
16 vest that in the Commissioner of Agriculture and
17 Markets.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
19 Senator Kuhl.
20 SENATOR KUHL: I didn't hear the
21 question, but let me just pose this to Senator
22 Paterson, and I don't know if he intended to ask
23 me a question, but you raise a point, I think,
5175
1 about the -- splitting the actual challenge to
2 this issue, and I might remind you, Senator
3 Paterson, that certainly, if an individual
4 decides that the Commissioner's judgment is not
5 a sound one, that rather than take the
6 individual farmer to court and challenge him
7 with a nuisance lawsuit, certainly this
8 individual has the rights under Article 78 of
9 the Civil Practice Laws and Rules to challenge
10 the Commissioner's decision as to being
11 arbitrary and capricious.
12 That would not bring into play
13 the defendant farmer. He would not have to be
14 taken into court to challenge -- to be cited
15 with a nuisance. So what I'm saying to you is,
16 if you are saying there ought to be another way,
17 certainly there is because the individual who is
18 objecting to this generally accepted farming
19 practice could say, Yeah. I think the
20 Commissioner is wrong. I challenge this
21 decision, take it into court and certainly that
22 court could overrule it. If that were the case,
23 and it very well could be, then certainly now we
5176
1 have a decision that it's not a generally
2 accepted farming practice and the individual
3 farmer would have to comply with that decision.
4 But what we're saying is that it
5 is unfair to bring the individual farmer in to
6 challenge that decision, that there is another
7 alternative, and an individual can take that
8 course if they see fit.
9 I would just point that out as
10 you say there must be another way, and I'm just
11 giving it to you, there is another way for the
12 individual to challenge that decision, so that
13 it doesn't come down solely to the Commissioner
14 to make that determination. It can be
15 challenged through the court system, and you
16 know the Civil Practice Law and Rules probably
17 much better than I do, but that is a way that
18 can be done without the added expense to this
19 farmer to defend this decision that was made by
20 the Commissioner of Agriculture and Markets.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
22 Senator Paterson.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
5177
1 I want to thank Senator Kuhl for his answers
2 which were most forthright.
3 On the bill. I want to just
4 compare this bill to the one that we previously
5 passed and maybe the point that I'm trying to
6 make will be a little clearer.
7 In the previous bill, we really
8 are addressing the issue of farm-plated vehicles
9 and insurance liability, and so if we wanted to
10 do as Senator Hoffmann said and understand the
11 nature of the industry and understand that
12 sometimes even the slightest inconvenience to
13 the farmer can create a tremendous hardship to
14 the industry, I think if that's what we want to
15 do, we can do it. Senator Kuhl's bill passed.
16 I voted for it. There was some dissent and I
17 think very merited dissent on that particular
18 bill.
19 But this particular bill relates
20 to something for which the value, I think, is a
21 little higher than insurance liability. Here we
22 are talking about our civil justice system. The
23 reason that we set up our civil justice system,
5178
1 which is one that's really carved out of the
2 criminal justice system; in other words, there
3 are implied attacks on society and that's why we
4 have criminal justice and in civil justice, they
5 are really the attacks on the individual.
6 We have encouraged people who
7 feel that they are victimized in that way to
8 bring their beef, so to speak, to court, to
9 bring their arguments to an arbiter, and what we
10 have in this situation is incurring a burden on
11 the plaintiff that, if you don't win on the
12 merits of your argument and the Commissioner of
13 Agriculture and Markets says, "This is a sound
14 farming practice", then you are going to have to
15 pay the court costs, not only that you incurred,
16 but also that the party you sued or the
17 defendant incurred.
18 In my opinion, it is putting a
19 tremendous hardship on a person that wants to
20 initiate a court action, and it is discouraging
21 individuals from bringing cases to court.
22 Now, I think in our opening
23 prayer today, we got some very good advice by
5179
1 Rabbi Buttman who gave us a little Talmudic law,
2 and he said, "Please pray for government,
3 because without government, people would eat
4 each other alive", and I think that's why we
5 have a court system because, when people feel
6 they don't have any court of challenge, they
7 start to take these disputes out personally.
8 They don't feel that there's a remedy.
9 I think the value of that remedy
10 is higher than that of disputes between farmers,
11 even if it does appear to be a little unfair to
12 the farmer that the actual nuisance may be a
13 standard farming practice. I would rather that
14 that issue be settled in court and I would
15 rather that no one feel an encumbrance upon them
16 limiting them from bringing the action to
17 court.
18 That's why I can't support the
19 bill, because I feel that the rendering of a
20 decision by the Commissioner of Agricultre and
21 Markets can only define the farming practice,
22 but whether or not the farming practice is being
23 handled correctly is something that evidence,
5180
1 facts and a presiding judge or jury, I think,
2 should decide.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
4 Read the last section.
5 Oh, excuse me, Senator Dollinger.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
7 President, just briefly on the bill.
8 I am mindful both of Senator
9 Hoffmann's comments about the importance of the
10 farming industry, Senator Kuhl's comments about
11 the significance of the farming industry in this
12 state, Senator Johnson's comments about the
13 farming industry in this state. It is clearly
14 one that has an enormous effect on our economy.
15 However, while it deserves a very
16 high place in our attempt to accommodate farm
17 ers, it seems to me the one thing we shouldn't
18 do is create a privileged place in our civil
19 justice system for farmers, because what this
20 will do is that this says that in a nuisance
21 action brought against the farmer, which is the
22 equivalent of a real estate-related product
23 liability action brought against the farmer,
5181
1 we're now going to create a rule that says if
2 you bring such an action, and you lose, and even
3 if it had some merit to it, but nonetheless, a
4 court finds that the practice was a reasonable
5 business practice or reasonable farming practice
6 by a farmer, you now have to pay not only your
7 own legal fees to have brought the action, but
8 the legal fees of the defendant farmer. In
9 essence, when the defendant wins, he wins
10 everything. When the plaintiff wins, he gets
11 the relief that he was entitled to.
12 So it seems to me while farming
13 should get a high privilege or a high status in
14 our economic system and in our civil justice
15 system, we should not create a privilege for
16 farmers that we deny to everyone else, and that
17 is, when they win they get everything; when the
18 plaintiff wins next door, he only gets what he
19 or she is entitled to.
20 I think that kind of privilege in
21 the system isn't necessary in this case. It
22 raises issues about the fairness of the entire
23 system. There's no suggestion here that other
5182
1 product manufacturers would get the same
2 treatment. There's no suggestion that other
3 defendants would get the same treatment. It
4 seems to me, while we should recognize the
5 farmer's contribution, here we are creating a
6 very, very highly privileged niche for farmers
7 and one that, at least from my perspective, I
8 think is unnecessary.
9 I will be voting no, Mr.
10 President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
12 Read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This
14 act shall take effect on the 90th day.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
16 Please call the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
19 Results.
20 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
21 the negative on Calendar Number 336, Senator
22 Abate, Connor, Gold, Gonzalez, Leichter,
23 Montgomery, Onorato, Paterson, Stavisky and
5183
1 Waldon. Ayes 49, nays 10.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
3 The bill is passed.
4 Senator Nanula.
5 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President, I
6 would like to request unanimous consent to be
7 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 65.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
9 Without objection.
10 SENATOR NANULA: Thank you.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
12 President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
14 Senator Dollinger.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just a point
16 of order, Mr. President. Was I recorded in the
17 negative on the last bill? I had my hand up and
18 I wanted to make sure I was.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT DeFRANCISCO:
20 You were not, but you will be.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
22 Mr. President, just to clarify.
23 Thank you.
5184
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Secretary will continue to call the
3 controversial calendar.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 356, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print Number
6 3628, an act to amend the Education Law, in
7 relation to the Tax Deferred Annuity Program
8 under the Board of Education retirement system.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 Secretary will read the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll.)
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
18 is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 377, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 3941-A, an
21 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to
22 directing the Commissioner of Education to
23 include rules concerning the maximum speeds of
5185
1 school vehicles.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explanation,
3 Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Levy, an explanation has been asked for by
6 Senator Dollinger.
7 SENATOR LEVY: Yes. Senator
8 Dollinger, when we last discussed 65 and, as we
9 were debating the last bill, the agreed upon 65
10 bill was put on everybody's desk, and the Rules
11 Committee is going to report that bill in just a
12 few moments.
13 This bill is really a companion
14 to, quote, "65". When we had our discussion -
15 and when we get into 65, I will talk about some
16 of the -- some of the things that we have done
17 since that debate that relate to deterrence,
18 that relate to enforcement, and that relate to
19 saving lives once we go to 65 on 1135 miles of
20 Thruway and other state and interstate highways
21 in New York.
22 One of the things that we talked
23 about was protecting children who are riding on
5186
1 school buses. So after that debate, I met with
2 the Commissioner of Education, and that
3 discussion related to the Commissioner of
4 Education mandating or requiring that no school
5 bus travel on those 1135 miles in excess of 55
6 miles an hour.
7 Commissioner Sobol said that he
8 was supportive and would, in fact, take that
9 action and support this bill, but he said, given
10 a court decision by the Court of Appeals five or
11 six years ago that questioned his ability
12 through rules and regulations without legisla
13 tion to take an act like this, he asked
14 Assemblyman Bragman and myself to mandate that
15 he take the action that related to establishing
16 the maximum speed limit for school buses at 55
17 miles an hour.
18 Now, I am told this bill has been
19 introduced by Mike Bragman; it does not have a
20 number yet over in the Assembly, but it has been
21 introduced. The bill was drafted as a result of
22 conversations between -- between Mike and myself
23 and our staffs, and this bill has been reviewed
5187
1 by the Commissioner, counsel to the department,
2 and they are supportive of this piece of legis
3 lation, and it does exactly what I said it did.
4 It requires the Commissioner to set a maximum of
5 55 miles an hour for any school bus traveling
6 with children on a bus.
7 It likewise preserves the powers
8 of local school districts to be more restrictive
9 than 55 if they make a determination for their
10 school district that they don't want their buses
11 traveling, not at 65, but they don't want them
12 traveling at 55, and that's what this bill
13 does.
14 As we get into the other debate,
15 we'll talk about conversations -- conversations
16 that I had with the Superintendent of the State
17 Police and with the Commissioner of Motor
18 Vehicles in regard to what they are going to do,
19 not only with school buses, but what they're
20 going to do as it relates to trucks that weigh
21 more than 18,000 pounds and have cargos such as
22 gasoline, propane, liquefied natural gas,
23 explosives and radioactive materials, but we'll
5188
1 save that discussion for when we get into 65 and
2 we'll lay out exactly what the Superintendent is
3 going to do, what the Commissioner of Motor
4 Vehicles is going to do in regard to those
5 areas, as well as you and I and everybody else
6 operating a vehicle at 65 miles an hour on those
7 roads.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
9 President, will Senator Levy yield to one
10 question?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Levy, do you yield to Senator Dollinger?
13 SENATOR LEVY: Sure.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Senator yields.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I
17 was one of those who actually came into the last
18 debate about the 65 mile-an-hour speed limit and
19 changed my mind because of your comments about
20 the ancillary aspects of raising the speed
21 limit, one of which was school buses. I thought
22 your point was well taken, and I approached this
23 ongoing debate about the Conference Committee
5189
1 report in that same light to look at this.
2 My question is this: Was -- this
3 statute makes reference to school vehicles. The
4 same types of problems with large numbers of
5 children on larger vehicles could be present,
6 for example, buses for religious institutions,
7 churches that bus students. For example, the Al
8 Siegel Center which may have vans that have half
9 a dozen handicapped children in them.
10 My question is was any
11 consideration given to the same, I think, proper
12 consideration about lowering the speed limit for
13 vehicles carrying large numbers of children; was
14 consideration given to making it based on the
15 number of children in the vehicle rather than
16 simply the designation of a school vehicle
17 transporting pupils as the way the statute
18 currently reads?
19 SENATOR LEVY: Senator, this bill
20 deals only with the Commissioner of Education
21 and directs the Commissioner to act as it re
22 lates to school vehicles and pupils that are go
23 ing to and from school or for other educational
5190
1 purposes.
2 I think your point is well taken
3 as it relates to taking a look at children being
4 transported other than to and from school or for
5 other educational purposes, and we'll take a
6 look at that, and in indicating that we worked
7 on this bill with Senator Bragman, we also
8 worked on a bill with Senator Oppenheimer who is
9 a sponsor of the bill.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Dollinger.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
13 President, I'm going to vote in favor of this
14 bill. I would just urge the Transportation
15 Committee of this house and the other house to
16 look at that other issue of -- and I think of
17 religious institutions and institutions that are
18 transporting a large number of people may not be
19 educational institutions not under the purview
20 of Commissioner of Education, but who have the
21 same risks that are created that this bill
22 addresses with respect to school children.
23 I'm going to vote in favor of
5191
1 this. It's the right thing to do. I think it
2 should be expanded even further.
3 SENATOR LEVY: I can tell you,
4 Senator Dollinger, that -- and I said we are
5 going to hold this to 65, and I'm going to read
6 into the record part of the letter from the
7 Superintendent -- letters from the Commissioner
8 of Motor Vehicles and the Superintendent of the
9 State Police, but I can tell you that the
10 Superintendent of State Police, on those 1135
11 miles, is going to target school buses
12 transporting children. They are going to be
13 targeted as it relates to enforcement. He has
14 made that commitment, and we will make that part
15 of the 65 record.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Secretary will read the last section.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll.)
5192
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
3 is passed.
4 Senator Marcellino, that
5 concludes the controversial calendar. We have
6 several housekeeping events at the desk, if you
7 want to do that.
8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Mr.
9 President. Do the housekeeping first.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
11 Substitution. The Secretary will read.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator
13 DeFrancisco moves to discharge from the
14 Committee on Local Government, Assembly Bill
15 Number 1983-B and substitute it for the
16 identical Calendar Number 213.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 substitution is ordered.
19 The Chair recognizes Senator
20 Present.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
22 on behalf of Senator Seward, I wish to call up
23 Calendar 498, Assembly Print 1540.
5193
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Secretary will read.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 498, by member of the Assembly Luster, Senate
5 Bill Number 1540, an act to amend the General
6 Business Law.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Present.
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
10 I now move to reconsider the vote by which the
11 the Assembly bill was substituted for Senator
12 Seward's bill, Senate Print 1108, on April 26th.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 Secretary will call the roll on
15 reconsideration.
16 (The Secretary called the roll on
17 reconsideration.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Present.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
22 I now move that Assembly Bill Number 1540 be
23 recommitted to the Committee on Consumer
5194
1 Protection and that Senator Seward's Senate bill
2 be restored to the order of Second Report.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Assembly bill is recommitted. The Senate bill
5 is restored to the Second calendar -- Second
6 Reading Calendar.
7 The Chair recognizes Senator
8 Marcellino.
9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
10 President, may we return to reports of standing
11 committees? I believe there's a report up from
12 the Rules Committee at the desk.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
14 a report of the Rules Committee at the desk. We
15 will return to reports of standing committees.
16 The Secretary will read.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
18 from the Committee on Rules, hands up the
19 following bills directly for third reading:
20 Senate Print 4475, Budget Bill, an act making an
21 appropriation for the support of government.
22 Senate Print 4476, Budget Bill,
23 an act making appropriation for the support of
5195
1 government.
2 Senate Print 4477, Budget Bill,
3 an act to provide for payments to municipalities
4 and to providers of medical services.
5 Senate Print 4478, Budget Bill,
6 an act to provide for payments to vendors under
7 the Women, Infants and Children's Program.
8 Senate Print 4250, by Senator
9 Johnson and others, an act to amend the Vehicle
10 and Traffic Law, in relation to maximum speed
11 limits and providing for the repeal of such
12 provisions.
13 All bills directly for third
14 reading.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All bills
16 are ordered directly to third reading.
17 The Chair recognizes Senator
18 Marcellino.
19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
20 President, I move we adopt the report of the
21 Rules Committee.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 motion is to accept the report of the Rules
5196
1 Committee. All those in favor signify by saying
2 aye.
3 (Response of "Aye".)
4 Opposed, nay.
5 (There was no response.)
6 The report is accepted.
7 Senator Marcellino.
8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: May we take
9 up Calendar Number 612, Senate 4250?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Marcellino, we have a substitution at the desk.
12 Can we take that first?
13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, sir.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'll ask
15 the Secretary to read.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson
17 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules
18 Assembly Bill Number 7384 and substitute it for
19 the identical bill, Calendar Number 612.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 substitution is ordered.
22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: May we now
23 take up Calendar Number 612, Senate 4250.
5197
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Secretary will read Calendar Number 612.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 612, by the Rules Committee, Assembly Bill
5 Number 7384, an act to amend the Vehicle and
6 Traffic Law, in relation to maximum speed limits
7 and providing for the repeal of such provision.
8 Section 3. This act shall take
9 effect on the 1st day -
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President
11 -- Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Leichter, why do you rise?
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I heard them
15 call the last section. I was going to explain
16 my vote.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No, you
18 did not hear the last section read yet, Senator
19 Leichter.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K., in that
21 event -
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: But
23 Calendar Number 612 is in front of the chamber.
5198
1 The Secretary will now read the
2 last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
4 act shall take effect on the 1st day of August.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
9 recognizes Senator Leichter to explain his vote.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 Mr. President, I'm delighted to
13 see that this first product of the Conference
14 Committee is before us, and I think it certainly
15 speaks well to the new procedures that have been
16 established by the Senate and the Assembly, and
17 I hope that we will see many other instances
18 where differences between the two houses are
19 resolved in this fashion.
20 Having said this -- and I appre
21 ciate the work that the members of the Confer
22 ence Committee did -- my view has been that to
23 increase the speed limit, I think, is going to
5199
1 lead to more accidents, will lead to more deaths
2 and injuries and, if we increase it to 65 miles,
3 then people in this state are going to be
4 driving 75 miles.
5 So let's -- as fine a product as
6 this is in terms of the procedures of the
7 Legislature, substantively I think it's flawed
8 and I will vote against it.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Leichter in the negative.
11 Senator Abate to explain her
12 vote.
13 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I, too,
14 would like to compliment my colleagues.
15 Although I cannot support this
16 bill, I certainly support the process, and the
17 reason I cannot support the bill is for many of
18 the issues that Senator Tully raised the last
19 time.
20 The argument in favor of
21 increasing the speed limit is, well, we're doing
22 it anyway; people are already driving 65 miles
23 an hour, and it's for the convenience of
5200
1 motorists.
2 My problem is, what is in this
3 current legislation that will prevent all of us
4 to honor 65 miles an hour and not drive at 70,
5 75 and 80? And these highways were designed for
6 speed limits not to exceed 70 miles an hour and
7 because this legislation does not have increased
8 law enforcement efforts, it does not have
9 increased penalties, there's no provision for
10 large capacity trucks in terms of limiting their
11 speed travel, I believe, although there's an
12 argument for convenience, the argument against
13 it is much more powerful, and that's about
14 saving lives and decreasing fatalities and
15 without these additional law enforcement
16 provisions, I cannot support this legislation.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Abate in the negative.
19 The Chair recognizes Senator Levy
20 to explain his vote.
21 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, Mr.
22 President. Let me just make a -- very, very
23 briefly make part of this record because we are
5201
1 taking a very, very important step as it regards
2 to the actions that are going to be taken by law
3 enforcement and by the Commissioner of Motor
4 Vehicles. I'm only going to -- I'm only going
5 to read part of these communications.
6 A letter from the Superintendent
7 of the State Police says:
8 "I concur that special enforce
9 ment efforts would be appropriate with regard to
10 commercial vehicles in excess of 18,000 pounds
11 and which are engaged in the transport of
12 flammable or combustible substances, explosives
13 or radioactive materials. In addition, I
14 believe buses engaged in the business of pupil
15 transportation are worthy of special attention.
16 "I have been in the process of
17 implementing enhanced enforcement efforts with
18 regard to commercial vehicles in general. You
19 can be assured that, upon implementation of a
20 65-mile speed limit, special attention will be
21 directed towards enforcement of the new limit in
22 reference to the particular vehicles described
23 above." Signed by James W. McMahon,
5202
1 Superintendent of New York State Police.
2 And on the question of trying to
3 deter not only those vehicles, but you and I and
4 everyone else who is going to travel those 1135
5 miles, the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles wrote
6 on March 15th, "I share your concerns and will
7 have this agency work with the Governor's Traf
8 fic Safety Committee to review this important
9 matter and report their recommendations for
10 action to me." That is on the issue of points.
11 Let me say and just echo the
12 comments that have been made here, an outstand
13 ing job done by Senator Johnson, Senator Farley,
14 Senator Kuhl, Senator Oppenheimer and the
15 members of the Conference Committee. We've done
16 the most that we can do. The future course of
17 the impact of 65 on lives, injuries and acci
18 dents is up to others, the Commissioner of
19 Education, the Superintendent of State Police,
20 and the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles,
21 including the motor vehicle operators who are
22 going to be driving on those 1135 miles of
23 highway in this state where the speed limit is
5203
1 65.
2 I vote aye.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Levy in the affirmative.
5 Senator Farley to explain his
6 vote.
7 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
8 President.
9 Having been a sponsor of the 65
10 mile-an-hour speed limit for a number of years
11 and having worked with Senator Johnson on this,
12 putting our bills together, working with the
13 Assembly and with the Conference Committee, it
14 was able to bring this to fruition, and with the
15 Governor that supported it, our Majority Leader,
16 it's an example of this Legislature doing what
17 the people of the state of New York want.
18 There's overwhelming support for
19 having a reasonable speed limit. Will people
20 drive 80 miles an hour? I certainly hope not,
21 and I think they will be arrested if they do. I
22 think that this is a reasonable speed limit on
23 rural interstates. The Conference Committee
5204
1 worked well. We put together a piece of legis
2 lation which is reasonable, which affects the
3 parts of the state -- the upstate parts of the
4 state where rural interstates, and so forth,
5 exist and where people are not only now driving
6 over 55 miles an hour, but they will be able to
7 do it legally, and I think safely.
8 Again, there have been studies
9 that show that where states have raised the
10 speed limit on rural interstates, that the death
11 rate has actually gone down. Why? Because they
12 think that the people do not drive on the back
13 roads and the roads that are more dangerous and
14 then drive on the interstates which are safer at
15 65 than the back roads are at 55. I don't know
16 the rationale, but the LAVE study has showed
17 that.
18 I think this is something that
19 the people of the state of New York has wanted.
20 I commend Senator Johnson and my colleagues that
21 served on the Conference Committee and have
22 worked on this legislation for so long.
23 It's a bill that will be signed.
5205
1 It will be the law of New York State, and I
2 think it's been a long time in coming.
3 I vote aye.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Farley in the affirmative.
6 The Chair recognizes Senator
7 Mendez.
8 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, I
9 also do want to congratulate the Conference
10 Committee for an excellent job in reconciling
11 the differences between the Senate and the
12 Assembly bill.
13 I do know that states in the
14 nation do have 65 miles per hour limits. Con
15 cerning the number of fatalities, Mr. President,
16 the fact remains that those -- there are two
17 studies in that area, and one claims that deaths
18 have been reduced and the other one concluded
19 the opposite, in reviewing the data. So I
20 really believe that, although most New Yorkers
21 are traveling, at least in the Thruway, at 64.9
22 miles per hour, I really believe that in
23 increasing the speed to 65 miles per hour could
5206
1 end up in greater number of accidents and
2 deaths.
3 Therefore, I'll be consistent
4 once more and vote against this bill.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Mendez in the negative.
7 The Chair recognizes Senator
8 Gold.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, thank you.
10 As so many people have said, the
11 Conference Committee did fine work, but you can
12 only deal with what you have, and basically they
13 reconciled differences but they didn't reconcile
14 the issue.
15 Senator Farley, who I greatly
16 respect, says you give the people what they
17 want. I always thought that what the people
18 wanted, Senator Farley, was for us to use our
19 heads and think rationally about things and,
20 well, Senator Levy says we pass the law and then
21 it's it up to others. They go out and kill
22 themselves, we didn't do anything wrong; we only
23 raised the speed limit, and I just think this is
5207
1 putting our heads in the sand. It really is.
2 People say, Well, I think this
3 and I think that, but the bottom line is that
4 before we passed the 55-mile-an-hour speed limit
5 in New York State, 3100 people on the average
6 were dying on our highways. Since we passed it,
7 that has fallen in New York State down to 2300.
8 That's a big number. That really is an awfully
9 big number.
10 I'm also told that in the states
11 that have increased the speed limit, Senator
12 Farley, you are wrong, that in 1992, the death
13 tolls in those states were 17 percent higher.
14 Now, that's -- those are really just big
15 numbers.
16 I remember, and I'm sure
17 everybody here remembers here what happened on
18 the roads before it went to 55. Nobody drove
19 65. When you were doing 65 and the guy passed
20 you at 80, it didn't seem so much, and then some
21 guy passed him at 90, and we had a disaster out
22 there and it was a disaster out there for the
23 police. You would not want to be the State
5208
1 Trooper who has to bring somebody to the side of
2 the road who's doing 90, 95 miles an hour, and I
3 really do believe that, under the existing law
4 where we have it at 55 and everybody knows but
5 you're not allowed to say it out loud, that the
6 cops don't stop if you you're doing under 63 or
7 64, well, then it's 63, 64, but at 65 it becomes
8 75 and 80, and that's exactly what happens, and
9 I think that the experience that we've had has
10 shown that we have actually been able to save
11 lives, and I see no reason to go back on that.
12 I vote no.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Gold in the negative.
15 The Chair recognizes Senator
16 Stavisky to explain his vote.
17 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President,
18 we certainly should praise the participants in
19 the conference effort, but that does not
20 necessarily mean that we should agree with the
21 final work product.
22 I think this is a better bill
23 than it would have been without the conference,
5209
1 but I believe that we still have some hard
2 decisions to make.
3 There probably isn't anyone in
4 this room who has not held a breath or said a
5 prayer as a tandem trailer has passed at an
6 excessive speed, with the hope that that tandem
7 trailer will pass without swerving onto our
8 lane. We have all seen the results and heard
9 the results if we haven't witnessed them
10 ourselves, of the carnage that has occurred when
11 one of those tandem trailers has turned over,
12 often because of excessive speed and the
13 curvature of the road or the exhaustion that the
14 driver experiences.
15 What about a trucker who has a
16 schedule to make -- and that's not a mini-car;
17 that's a tandem trailer -- that individual has a
18 schedule to meet and is told, "You get that
19 delivery to this destination by this time, and
20 we don't want to hear anything else"?
21 What about those that will
22 continue to drive past the time when they should
23 pull over on the side of the road to rest? We
5210
1 cannot have a piece of paper, no matter if it is
2 signed by respected officials of state
3 government, that guarantees us that that trucker
4 will not continue to remain behind the wheel
5 long after it is no longer safe.
6 We've seen the situation too many
7 times, and when individuals who are constituents
8 of ours or members of a family of constituents
9 of ours or, God forbid, members of our own
10 families who may be injured or worse because of
11 the passage of this legislation, I do not think
12 we would be proud of this moment.
13 The insurance companies are not
14 anxious to shell out unnecessarily high settle
15 ments. The Insurance Institute for Highway
16 Safety is opposed to this legislation, and if
17 the delivery has to occur at a slightly later
18 hour, do not endanger our constituents. There
19 are too many shipments of flammable materials.
20 We can no longer be assured that toxic wastes
21 will not be passing through the highways where
22 this extra speed limit is permitted.
23 Under these circumstances, I
5211
1 don't think we should pass this. I think we
2 should have further restrictions on the types of
3 vehicles that are permitted to travel at this
4 speed and hope that the motorists are sensible
5 enough even if the vehicle is not a large one,
6 to pull over to the side of the road when there
7 is the tendency to be over-fatigued.
8 Under these circumstances, I wish
9 to be recorded in the negative.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Stavisky in the negative.
12 Senator Solomon to explain his
13 vote.
14 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr.
15 President.
16 As I debated this bill earlier
17 when it came up in the Senate before it went to
18 Conference Committee, I believe we're taking a
19 dangerous step, as a number of speakers before
20 me in explaining their vote had stated.
21 We are taking a step where, in
22 fact, increasing the speed limit has only
23 evidenced one thing in other states where it's
5212
1 been done before, an increase in the number of
2 deaths on our highways, and I just question
3 whether or not that it's worth it to allow
4 people to arrive at a destination a few minutes
5 early because that's all it translates into is a
6 few minutes earlier, where we're going to have
7 some people lose their lives.
8 I dare say you can see this,
9 trucks on the Thruway that now generally many of
10 them do over 70 miles an hour, they'll be doing
11 80 miles an hour, and I should remind you that
12 most fatalities occur in accidents between
13 trucks and passenger automobiles, and many of
14 these roads that have been designated are
15 heavily travelled roads by truck traffic.
16 So I'm going to vote against this
17 bill because I don't believe it's worth it,
18 worth that one life, that first life that's
19 going to be lost because of an increase in the
20 speed limit so that numerous other people can
21 arrrive at a destination earlier.
22 Thank you.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5213
1 Solomon in the negative.
2 Senator LaValle to explain his
3 vote. Senator LaValle waives.
4 Senator Oppenheimer to explain
5 her vote.
6 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'll be
7 voting affirmatively on this.
8 A couple of points I wanted to
9 make. One is that -- one of the reasons we feel
10 that the fatalities are down is not just that
11 the speed limit has been down but that there
12 have been many innovations made in the cars that
13 we are driving. For instance, years ago, we did
14 not have mandatory seat belts. We did not have
15 air bags. We did not have anti-locking brakes.
16 We feel these are contributing to a safer nation
17 of motorists.
18 In looking at the roads that were
19 subsequently added or detracted, depending -
20 subtracted, depending on which bill you're
21 looking at, there were many factors that went
22 into the determination of these particular roads
23 that are enumerated, and we looked closely at
5214
1 the number of accidents, the number of accidents
2 that had fatalities, the volume on each of these
3 roads, the density of the population centers
4 where these roads traveled by, and it was very
5 carefully looked at, and these roads were not
6 determined lightly and great discussions took
7 place over certain roads that many people on the
8 committee wanted but were felt not appropriate
9 because of the stricter standards that we had
10 put down.
11 The fact of the matter is that
12 everybody is going these speeds now on these
13 highways. I know if you try and sit at 55, you
14 can't even stay in the slowest lane because
15 people are not traveling at 55 and they're not
16 traveling at 65; they're traveling even faster
17 than that, and anticipating now that people
18 would say -- motorists would say, "Well, at 65,
19 of course, I can probably go nine miles over
20 that speed limit before I'll get nailed." Well,
21 we've taken that into account too, and what
22 we're going to be doing is we're going to be
23 having stricter enforcement of the law when this
5215
1 turns to 65 so that we will see that those who
2 are exceeding the limit will be caught and we're
3 also going to increase the penalties, and so we
4 feel this will be a deterrent to people who
5 think, "Oh, now, that's an opportunity for me to
6 go another ten miles faster or nine miles faster
7 than the limit."
8 I think a lot of thought has gone
9 into this and a lot of accommodation, and I feel
10 it's realistic and hopefully we will see no
11 increase. We are certainly going to monitor
12 this. We will hopefully see no increase in the
13 number of fatalities, but I can assure you, if
14 we do see an increase, it will be caught quickly
15 and it will be -- after all, none of our laws
16 are written in stone.
17 So I feel this is a joint effort
18 that has been successful after a good amount of
19 give and take, and I'm pleased with the result.
20 I vote yes.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Oppenheimer in the affirmative.
23 Senator Dollinger to explain his
5216
1 vote.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
3 President, I extend my congratulations to
4 members of the Conference Committee as well. I
5 would only have one suggestion the next time a
6 Conference Committee convenes. It seems, even
7 at this stage, we're still debating about which
8 one of the studies is accurate, whether the
9 fatalities went up or they went down. My
10 recommendation of those in the Conference
11 Committee would be, get both of the people who
12 conducted those studies in here; let's ask them
13 questions and find out why those two studies
14 could come to different conclusions so we can
15 make an independent judgment as to which of
16 those two studies is accurate and fair.
17 The other concerns I have,
18 Senator Levy has taken care of one with the
19 school bus initiative. I was also impressed
20 during the last time this went around before we
21 sent it off to Conference Committee about the
22 importance of enforcement. Senator Levy, I
23 think, said without contradiction that these
5217
1 highways are built to accommodate 70 miles an
2 hour and I, for one, do not want to see anybody
3 zipping by ten miles faster than 65, because it
4 was my understanding that we would say to those
5 people who drive faster than 70, we would not
6 only hit them with additional points, but we
7 would look at the possibility of additional
8 fines, and my hope is that we'll put one of
9 those Pennsylvania signs on the other side of
10 the border that says, "You come into New York
11 State and exceed our 65 mile-an-hour speed limit
12 by more than five miles, it will cost you
13 $250". That may get the kind of results that
14 we're after because I think, as everybody points
15 out -- as everybody points out, if you go faster
16 than 70 miles an hour on these highways, you're
17 going at an unsafe speed, and my view is that
18 we've got to make sure that nobody is cheating
19 over the 65 mile-an-hour speed limit.
20 My other concern, even though I'm
21 going to vote in favor of this bill, is what
22 this will do to travel on other highways. My
23 sense is that by raising the speed limit to 65,
5218
1 we may find that on our rural highways, which
2 are only built for 55, we may find everybody
3 inching up to 65 because that's now the accepted
4 norm on our divided highways and on our
5 interstates.
6 Nonetheless, despite those
7 concerns, I agree with Senator Oppenheimer. I
8 don't believe the bill is written in stone. I
9 think we ought to keep a very close eye on it.
10 I know it has a sunset. I hope the Department
11 of Transportation will do its own studies.
12 There may be some risk in this. My sense is,
13 and I agree with Senator Farley, I think
14 everybody has been going 65 for years, but let's
15 make sure they don't go any faster. Let's put
16 the enforcement system in to restrict people
17 from going even five miles faster than the 65
18 mile-an-hour speed limit.
19 I'll be voting in favor, Mr.
20 President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Dollinger in the affirmative.
23 Senator Johnson to explain his
5219
1 vote.
2 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
3 I'd like to begin by congratulating all the
4 members of the Conference Committee, my
5 colleagues, yourself, Senator Kuhl, Senator
6 Farley, Senator Oppenheimer and, of course, even
7 the Assembly, Mr. Bragman, Gantt, Mr. Destito
8 and Glick for sitting through three sessions and
9 so -- working this bill over pretty well and
10 coming to a consensus.
11 You know, I never -- I'm not
12 really prepared to debate the bill again since
13 we passed our first bill by 46 to 8 and in the
14 Assembly by 120 to 22, so I'm really happy to
15 know that the representatives in this state are
16 expressing the will of the people who sent them
17 here, and I think it's very appropriate.
18 Also, that historically accidents
19 have gone down year by year, deaths per hundred
20 million miles have gone down year by year.
21 That's continued even in the states which have
22 gone to the legal limit of 65. In fact, as
23 we're talking here, the bill is before the
5220
1 Governor in Maryland and Pennsylvania has passed
2 it in one house; it will pass the other, so New
3 York State will be joining the rest of the
4 nation expressing the view of their people going
5 back to the 65 mile-an-hour limit; and did you
6 ever think about it, that if the Arabs didn't
7 pull out the shortage figures and raise the
8 price of fuel so much, we would have been
9 traveling 65 all the while, nobody would have
10 been concerned about it, and we wouldn't be here
11 today; but we're here today. I'm glad you're
12 all here.
13 Thank you very much for being
14 here and for expressing your support for this
15 measure.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Johnson in the affirmative.
18 Announce the results.
19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
20 the negative on Calendar Number 612, Senators
21 Abate, Cook, Gold, LaValle, Leichter, Mendez,
22 Sears, Solomon, Stavisky and Volker.
23 Ayes 49, nays 10.
5221
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is passed.
3 Senator Solomon.
4 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Mr.
5 President. Can I have unanimous consent to be
6 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number
7 336?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
9 objection, Senator Solomon will be recorded in
10 the negative on Calendar Number 336.
11 Senator Marcellino.
12 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
13 President, may we now please take up Calendar
14 Number 608, Senate 4475?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read Calendar Number 608.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 608, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4475, an act
19 making an appropriation for the support of
20 government.
21 SENATOR CONNOR: Explanation.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Stafford, an explanation has been asked for by
5222
1 Senator Connor.
2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
3 this is an emergency appropriation for the
4 administrative payroll.
5 The bill appropriates 131.5
6 million to meet the May 3rd payroll for certain
7 executive branch officers and employees. It
8 does not include the Governor, Lieutenant
9 Governor, state Comptroller, Attorney General
10 and those employees of the Executive Chamber not
11 subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act for whom
12 notice has been provided to the Comptroller by
13 the Secretary to the Governor.
14 It appropriates 30.5 million to
15 meet the May 3rd payroll for all officers,
16 employees of the judiciary. It also approp
17 riates $40,000 -- and it gets hard to read from
18 40 billion to 40 million to 40,000, but it
19 appropriates 40,000 to meet the May 3rd payroll
20 for officers, employees of the Legislative
21 Library, legislatve nurses and legislative
22 messenger personnel and other legislative staff
23 who are not included.
5223
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
2 recognizes Senator Connor.
3 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
4 President.
5 Mr. President, it appears that
6 once again the Governor has failed to submit to
7 the Legislature provisions for paying the staff
8 of the two houses of the Legislature.
9 Mr. President, we've said it
10 before on this floor and I say it again, and I
11 ask my colleagues in all sincerity on both sides
12 of the aisle, why? Please tell me, someone,
13 where is the logic in paying deputy budget
14 directors, unit heads in the budget department
15 who make over $100,000 a year, who presumably
16 better have something to do with passing a
17 budget in this state; where is the logic in
18 paying them and not paying a $19,000-a-year
19 secretary or receptionist in the Legislature?
20 Where, my colleagues, is the
21 logic in paying over 90- and $100,000 to
22 commissioners in the executive branch and not
23 paying the Legislature's interns who make a
5224
1 paltry sum in living expenses while they are up
2 here on what is supposed to be an educational
3 experience on a non-partisan basis? They are
4 not players in the legislative process or the
5 budget process. They're here to learn.
6 Indeed, I've had the experience
7 of some wonderful interns over the years. Some
8 times we chat after hours. It was explained to
9 me they were conservative Republicans, and I was
10 a very moderate Democrat myself (laughter) and
11 we had a lot in common, but we weren't fellow
12 partisans because that's not why they're here,
13 and we all know that.
14 Many of you on the other side of
15 the aisle have young people, student interns.
16 They happen to be Democrats and Conservatives or
17 whatever, and vice versa. They're not chosen on
18 a partisan basis. It's not a partisan program.
19 They're not here to make policy. They're here
20 to learn about state government and what a sad
21 lesson we teach these students when the state of
22 New York, when the Legislature doesn't keep our
23 commitment to pay their subsistence stipend so
5225
1 they can pay their rent and put food on their
2 table. Where is the logic in that?
3 You know, I was informed a few
4 days ago that some legislative employees had
5 filed suit in the Northern District of New York
6 alleging -- and I believe they will be upheld
7 ultimately -- that the withholding of their pay
8 is unconstitutional, and I have to say this. I
9 have had staff who work on both sides of this
10 aisle and members on both sides of this aisle,
11 the ones on this side of the aisle say openly,
12 "I hope they win that lawsuit," and people on
13 the other side of the aisle say, "I hope you
14 win. I hope they win the lawsuit because it's
15 not right."
16 Well, my colleagues, stop
17 whispering and get up and say what's right or
18 wrong. In the last 18 years that I've been
19 here, we had Democratic governors until this
20 year and, indeed, there were times when Governor
21 Carey or Governor Cuomo made some proposal,
22 sometimes to capture headlines or whatever -
23 we're going to do this, we're not going to do
5226
1 that, I propose that -- and I observed real
2 leadership at work over those years on some of
3 those occasions, and I observed the legislators
4 doing their job as independent voices for what
5 the Constitution tells us is our obligation, and
6 I observed them on both sides of the aisle, but
7 it wasn't surprising when Republicans in the
8 Assembly and Republicans in the Senate and their
9 leaders said, Oh, no, we don't agree with that.
10 We're not going along with that. But I saw it
11 from Democratic Speakers and I saw it from the
12 Democratic Minority Leader in this Senate then,
13 and I heard it from Democratic colleagues in
14 this house and the other house.
15 Think back. Think back. There
16 were times when Democrats in the Legislature
17 said to those governors, No, with all due
18 respect, you're a Democrat, we generally support
19 you, but you're wrong on that one.
20 Where are the voices of
21 independence and reason from the leadership in
22 this house and the other house on the Republican
23 side? Whispering. That's where they are, "Hope
5227
1 we win the lawsuit." Well, stand up and be
2 counted. This is wrong what we're doing. It is
3 absolutely wrong. Every tradition, every major
4 religious tradition from the Muslims, Judaism,
5 Christianity, that has an ethical code, demands
6 that workers be paid for their work.
7 You know, our employees aren't
8 free not to come to work. The Taylor Law
9 forbids them -- forbids them from collectively
10 refusing to come to work. We have a law on the
11 books that says you must come to work, and we're
12 not paying them? We're not paying people who
13 make $22,000 a year?
14 And all of those religious
15 ethical codes say that is a grave moral injus
16 tice, a grave moral injustice not to pay workers
17 their wages. But we don't need that. Common
18 sense tells us that. Our own sense of right and
19 wrong tells us that, and you all know it's true,
20 all of you.
21 Some of the people who brought
22 lawsuits, incredible stories. In the Assembly,
23 Suzanne Haley makes $10,000 to work full time
5228
1 during the session, supports three minor
2 children on that, but we're not going to pay her
3 because George Pataki says she should get a
4 budget passed?
5 Ruth Verbal works for the Senate
6 Minority, earns $24,000 a year, primary wage
7 earner in her household, has a child. I could
8 go on, people, single parents with two and three
9 children make 22-, 19-, $21,000 a year, and
10 we're not going to pay them; and, you know, when
11 they held a protest a week or two ago, some of
12 the staff outside the mansion, the protest with
13 Governor Pataki was doing in not submitting this
14 emergency appropriation because the Governor
15 must submit emergency appropriations as we all
16 know, the Governor's reply was to the press,
17 They should go persuade their legislators to
18 pass a budget. They should go lean on their
19 legislators to pass a budget.
20 My friends and colleagues, we
21 have a Legislative Law that makes it a crime for
22 them to do that. Do you know that? Section
23 66(a) of the Legislative Law, "Prohibited
5229
1 Activity by Legislative Employees: No
2 legislative employee shall, except within the
3 scope of legislative employment, directly or
4 indirectly promote or oppose the passage of
5 bills or resolutions by either house," and that
6 section makes it a misdemeanor, a crime.
7 Now, that doesn't mean staff who
8 work for the Finance Committee can't advocate
9 positions on the budget, because that's within
10 the scope of their legislative duties; but I
11 submit to you that it's not within the scope of
12 the legislative duties of interns, reception
13 ists secretaries in the correspondence division,
14 people who work for other divisions, people -
15 many of the people who work in your own
16 offices. If dealing with the budget is not one
17 of their duties, it is a crime for them to be
18 urging you, Pass the budget, vote for this
19 budget, don't vote for that budget. Yet the
20 Governor says they should go -- they should go
21 tell us pass the budget so they get paid for
22 wages they earn.
23 I have a letter -- a copy of a
5230
1 letter I was given today, to the Governor, that
2 I would like to share with you.
3 "Dear Governor Pataki: I am
4 writing to you as one of thousands of Senate and
5 Assembly employees who are having their salaries
6 withheld at your insistence until the state
7 budget is adopted by the Legislature.
8 "Since you are the one who has
9 decided that I should be penalized for the
10 trouble you are having in negotiating a final
11 spending plan, I thought you might be able to
12 help me with a problem I am having that is
13 directly associated with my lack of a paycheck.
14 The problem is this:
15 "I live outside of Albany, in
16 the city of Troy --" who's the Senator there,
17 may I ask -- "and must take the bus back and
18 forth every day to get to work, but without a
19 paycheck I cannot now afford the $14 a week I
20 must spend on bus fare. It is already a
21 struggle for me as a single mother to provide
22 support for my daughter and son, pay 550 a month
23 in rent and meet other household expenses on a
5231
1 $23,500 annual salary.
2 "As I can hope you can
3 understand, my inability to afford public
4 transportation back and forth to Albany is very
5 worrisome to me. I need my job and do not want
6 to fall behind in my work as a secretary in the
7 Senate Democratic Leaders Correspondence Unit.
8 "Since I do not have any control
9 over budget negotiations and cannot, therefore,
10 do anything to make sure that my paychecks
11 resume any time in the near future, I am
12 respectfully requesting that you take some kind
13 of action to help me get back and forth to my
14 job and that you consider the following
15 suggestions:
16 "First, I understand that you
17 have a taxpayer-supported car and driver at your
18 disposal. Since I am a taxpayer or was until
19 you halted my salary, I thought you might want
20 to send your chauffeur to take me to work every
21 morning and home to my children every evening.
22 "As a second option, I
23 understand that you are continuing to pay full
5232
1 salaries to your highly paid state agency
2 commissioners and most of the budget division
3 employees. If any of these officials live near
4 me, perhaps they can give me a ride.
5 "I anxiously await your reply to
6 my request for this small bit of assistance. If
7 you really believe that my presence at work as a
8 legislative employee is key to getting a Senate
9 budget in place, I cannot imagine why you would
10 continue to make it unaffordable for me to come
11 into the office and do my work. Even if you
12 ultimately refuse to help me get to work, I hope
13 my letter will at least assist you in
14 understanding the terrible hardships your
15 decision is posing for so many employees.
16 Sincerely, Theresa Crisp."
17 Who's going to give this mother a
18 ride to work when she doesn't get a paycheck?
19 Do we really believe that a single mother of
20 two, who makes twenty-three five, has savings to
21 fall back on, has resources to fall back on, can
22 just walk into a bank and sign her name and get
23 a big bridge loan? Of course, she can't.
5233
1 These are the people being hurt
2 by this policy, and I ask all of my colleagues,
3 stand up and be heard. Demand of the Governor,
4 whether he's from your party or not, that he do
5 the right thing and stop this mindful nonsense.
6 It was a promise, a speech, a threat made in the
7 State of the State address. It sounded
8 wonderful. Even he realized you had to pay the
9 legislative nurses. He didn't think about the
10 interns. It was a promise made in haste.
11 Please, do as I saw leaders and
12 members do for the last 18 years. Stand up and
13 speak out to your own Governor, if you are a
14 Republican, for what is right. Stop whisper
15 ing. Of course, the staff should be paid. We
16 all know that. Sometimes partisanship asks too
17 much. To be silent in the face of such a moral
18 injustice, I respectfully suggest, is asking too
19 much, and I know -- let's put it another way.
20 If any member of this house
21 thinks this is the right thing to do, stand up
22 and say so now.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
5234
1 recognizes Senator Waldon.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President,
3 would the learned gentleman who is the chair of
4 our Finance Committee yield to a question or
5 two?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Stafford, do you yield to Senator Waldon? The
8 Senator yields.
9 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
10 much, Mr. President.
11 Senator Stafford, I appreciate
12 your indulgence. Are you familiar with the term
13 "involuntary servitude"?
14 SENATOR STAFFORD: The answer is
15 what you think it is.
16 SENATOR WALDON: Sir? I can't
17 hear you, Senator. I'm sorry.
18 I didn't hear the Senator, Mr.
19 President.
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I said the
21 answer is what you think it is. Yes.
22 SENATOR WALDON: Are you also -
23 thank you very much, Senator.
5235
1 Mr. President, if I may continue?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Stafford, do you continue to yield?
4 (There was no response.)
5 SENATOR WALDON: The Senator
6 doesn't wish to yield?
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: I understood
8 you were going to speak.
9 SENATOR WALDON: No, no, sir. If
10 I may, Mr. President, just a couple more
11 questions, and this is serious. This is not a
12 frivolous activity. If the Senator would yield
13 to another question?
14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Certainly.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Senator yields, Senator Waldon.
17 SENATOR WALDON: Senator
18 Stafford, are you aware of or familiar with the
19 fact that in this nation, involuntary servitude
20 was eliminated as a course of action many, many,
21 many, many years ago?
22 SENATOR STAFFORD: I would point
23 out that my colleague who is questioning me, and
5236
1 who I respect a great deal and we've got along
2 extremely well, I'm taking probably more
3 seriously than you are what you're asking me. I
4 don't know that the question really is
5 pertinent, but out of my respect and caring for
6 you, I will, of course, acknowledge that is the
7 case.
8 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
9 much, Mr. President, Senator Stafford.
10 Mr. President, if I may speak on
11 the bill.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Waldon, on the bill.
14 SENATOR WALDON: My colleagues,
15 the point I was attempting to make and I think
16 it's abundantly clear, is that the people who
17 are not being paid have been put into the
18 position of involuntary servitude, which is
19 anathema to everything that this nation stands
20 for at this time in 1995. It may have been
21 acceptable for certain people in this country in
22 1860, but it is no longer acceptable for any
23 people in 1995.
5237
1 The tragedy is that this
2 Governor's action has, in effect, put all
3 people, be they black, white, Jew or gentile,
4 who are in the position of not receiving their
5 paychecks for work done, in the status of
6 involuntary servitude.
7 Therefore, I would hope that
8 someone would recognize the wrongness, the
9 viciousness, the visceral action being done by
10 the second floor and let us rid ourselves of
11 this albatross. It is not fair. It is not fair
12 as characterized by Senator Connor. It is not
13 fair for the woman who works in my office as a
14 receptionist. It is not fair that people who
15 are in that position are now working Saturdays
16 and Sundays just to get enough money to feed
17 their children.
18 It is abhorrent to all that we
19 stand for as a people, as a body, as a state and
20 as a nation. To my understanding, this kind of
21 action has never happened before in America, and
22 it is time that it stopped.
23 Thank you very much, Mr.
5238
1 President.
2 Thank you, Senator Stafford.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
4 recognizes Senator Marcellino.
5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
6 President, as one who has come to this house
7 only recently and who has yet to receive a
8 paycheck, some people in my district, including
9 my wife, wonder why I'm here under those
10 circumstances, and I remind them very simply
11 that we're all in the same boat, because while
12 it might not be fair that some people aren't
13 getting paid right now, it is also not fair that
14 the taxpayers of this state are saddled with a
15 burden of a $5 billion deficit which has to be
16 dealt with.
17 We wouldn't be debating here
18 today if the Assembly had passed a budget in a
19 timely fashion as was done in this house. There
20 wouldn't be a problem, had the other chamber
21 done their job in the light of day like we did
22 ours and passed a budget in a timely fashion.
23 So, you know, I might agree about
5239
1 some unfairness in the world, but I think it's
2 unfair to the taxpayers of this state to keep
3 this thing going on and on and on and on, and I
4 suggest to my learned colleague, Mr. Connors,
5 that he go back to the Assembly Speaker and say,
6 Pass the rest of your budget bills, and we'll be
7 finished and everybody will get paid.
8 Thank you.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Dollinger.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would Senator
12 Marcellino yield to a question?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Marcellino, do you yield to Senator Dollinger?
15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 yields.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, do
19 you think innocent people ought to be punished
20 in order to influence those who are guilty?
21 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I don't
22 think anybody is guilty or innocent. I think
23 the taxpayers of this state deserve a fair
5240
1 shake. They deserved a budget which was, by
2 law, to be done by April 1st. It was not done.
3 It was done in this chamber. It was not done in
4 the other chamber.
5 Senator, I would suggest, if you
6 want to lay guilt, go back to the other side of
7 this building and say to your colleagues in the
8 Majority, "Ladies and gentlemen, pass a budget,
9 pass your Article 7 bills, pass your entire
10 budget," and then everybody will get paid and
11 the taxpayers of this state will be well served.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. So
13 you're willing to punish the innocent people who
14 have no influence on the budget process to
15 somehow influence the judgment of those of us
16 who are guilty, who are elected officials and,
17 therefore, responsible, you're going to punish
18 innocent people to somehow affect those who,
19 quote, are "guilty", is that it?
20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, if
21 you want to talk about punishment, I would
22 suggest we go back to our districts and we
23 discuss with our residents in our districts who
5241
1 are being punished now in an over-taxed state
2 which is over-spending and over-taxing for
3 years. Twenty years it has been going on, sir.
4 $5 billion worth of deficit has been run up.
5 We're trying to address that -
6 excuse me. The Governor of this state is trying
7 to address that. This house, I believe, has
8 already addressed that. We've passed a budget
9 that would spend less and tax less and cut a
10 whole slew of problems. If we could get that
11 action out of the other house, we would not be
12 here engaging in this exercise.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
14 President, Senator Marcellino yield to just one
15 final question?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Marcellino, do you yield to just one final
18 question?
19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Sure.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there any
21 employee who works for this Legislature, any
22 employee who has had anything to do with
23 spending $5 billion in additional funds? Is
5242
1 there any employee in this Legislature other
2 than Steve Sloan, obviously -- my colleagues
3 mentioned Steve Sloan. Is there anybody in this
4 Legislature who is not an elected official that
5 had anything to do with racking up those monies,
6 spending more than we were taking in? Why
7 should those innocent people who didn't have a
8 thing to do with it, why should they work for a
9 month and not get paid?
10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Because
11 those innocent individuals are also taxpayers
12 and they are also going to suffer under the
13 actions of or the inaction of the Assembly. If
14 there was a budget, they would be paid, and this
15 state would be better off for it, sir.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd just like
17 to point out to Senator Marcellino, they're no
18 longer taxpayers. They haven't paid taxes in a
19 month.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Dollinger. Senator Dollinger, you're out of
22 order.
23 The Chair recognizes Senator
5243
1 Paterson is next on the list.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
3 President.
4 I know that there is a court case
5 that has been initiated and I'm standing here
6 trying to think of what the counter-arguments
7 could be to why people who work might not get
8 paid. One that comes to mind would be that
9 there would be some compelling state interest
10 that would be served, that this would force to
11 get a budget passed more quickly, to have staff
12 members punished and not be paid. I suggest
13 that argument would not work.
14 A second argument would be that
15 there's no real irreparable harm to the employ
16 ees, "irreparable" meaning basically permanent
17 harm, because eventually they would get their
18 money back. You might get kicked out of your
19 apartment at that particular time, but I guess
20 they feel eventually you can go find another
21 apartment or something like that, and so the
22 irreparable harm argument, in my opinion, would
23 be met by this particular situation or the
5244
1 irreparable harm argument really wouldn't apply.
2 The final counter-argument that I
3 can think of is that we really, as the
4 judiciary, do not want to meddle into the
5 legislative branch, and although that might be
6 the one argument that has some merit from my
7 point of view, the fact is that that's the exact
8 same argument that we have been using for the
9 last month to try to stop the Governor from
10 imposing his will on the legislators and the
11 legislative staff and the interns, and that is
12 that we don't want one segment of government
13 imposing themselves on what is the purview and
14 the duty of another segment, and so we don't
15 want to have that constitutional test.
16 All of these counter-arguments,
17 in my opinion, are really just in furtherance of
18 the art of sophistry, when you want to do
19 something and you just make up reasons for why
20 you did it, and that's what I think is going on
21 here, and that's what I think really brings this
22 process down. You make bold statements and then
23 you have to find some reason, be it logical or
5245
1 illogical, to try to back them up.
2 If the budget had passed, then
3 the staff would have been paid. Well, the
4 Assembly has now passed their budget and is in
5 the process -- that doesn't mean that the entire
6 budget is going to be passed; it just means the
7 Senate had an idea what their budget should be
8 and they publicized it. Now the Assembly has an
9 idea what their budget should be and they
10 publicized it. That doesn't get the budget to
11 pass. There has to be agreement. That has to
12 be negotiation, and there has to be a final
13 legislative process and a final bill that
14 everyone can agree on, or a series of bills.
15 So that's not the reason, and
16 sometimes I think these types of situations
17 become deliberately euphemistic and complicated
18 when the reality is very simple. It kind of
19 reminds me of reading Crime and Punishment. You
20 go through this long, long, long novel and you
21 have Professor Rachmaninov chasing Raskalnikov
22 for a crime they both knew he committed, and
23 they go through all of this diatribe and
5246
1 dialogue and, finally, at the very end, when
2 Professor Rachmaninov says to him -- he says, "I
3 can't prove that you did it but I know that you
4 did it, so why don't you just give yourself up?"
5 and he says, "I'm not going to," and he goes
6 home and he talks to his significant other, and
7 this woman that doesn't know anything about
8 criminology, when he finally admits to her that
9 he did it, she says to him, "It's wrong."
10 So you read that entire book, and
11 Dostoevsky is really telling you that the answer
12 was in the first line of the book, that an act
13 that's wrong basically should be punished.
14 This is a wrong act, not paying
15 the staff. This is a wrong act because we have
16 a Federal Labor Standards Act and a New York
17 State Finance Law, Article 14, Section -
18 Article 14, Section 200, which mandates that the
19 staff actually be paid, and we choose not to do
20 it because this year, for some reason, since we
21 didn't pass the budget on time, this is
22 something that's popular, this is something that
23 sounds tough and it sounds very strong but, in
5247
1 fact, it is really a manifestation of the
2 process that's made the budget process elongated
3 in the first place; and it is when others do not
4 have the power to fight back, you just take
5 advantage of them.
6 Originally, we weren't going to
7 pay any of the state workers, but we found -
8 and I'm sure as the Governor can tell you, we
9 found that their unions came to their defense
10 and a number of people came to their defense,
11 and even in the original discussions about not
12 paying the staff, there were many who didn't
13 think that this could be a public issue because
14 the staff are considered to be quacks and
15 political hacks and all kinds of individuals who
16 don't merit to get paid just simply because they
17 are legislative staff, and what we've really
18 done in the end is make a mockery of the
19 process.
20 But I think that the fact that
21 the ruling in this case was put over gave us
22 another opportunity because the judicial branch
23 really doesn't want to interfere in the
5248
1 legislative branch and would only do so at a
2 time when it creates a real hardship for
3 employees, which will occur on Wednesday, May
4 3rd, when, for the first time in this process,
5 the staff members will not get any pay, and so I
6 think that what we were being given was a third
7 chance.
8 We missed the opportunity on
9 April 5th. We missed an opportunity on April
10 19th. Here's an opportunity on May 3rd to
11 rectify a situation that we created, to pay
12 individuals for the work that they performed and
13 for the salaries that they deserve, and I think,
14 Mr. President, that would be the only right way
15 to do this. It's really very simple. And there
16 cannot be any excuses, and I understand maybe
17 the political positions that some are in, and so
18 the only disagreement I have with the Minority
19 Leader would be maybe I really don't want to
20 hear anybody get up and say that this is wrong
21 if they can't say it, or what's worse is to get
22 up and say that it's right when you know that
23 it's wrong.
5249
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
2 recognizes Senator Stavisky.
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President,
4 would the Majority Leader yield for a question?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Bruno, do you yield to Senator Stavisky?
7 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
8 President.
9 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator Bruno,
10 we have had a long list of distinguished leaders
11 of the state, Governor's office -- we'll leave
12 out of the Assembly, not always popular in this
13 chamber, and we've had distinguished leaders in
14 this chamber.
15 In your recollection of state
16 government, which I know is long, was there ever
17 a situation where Nelson Rockefeller or Malcolm
18 Wilson put a freeze on the salaries of
19 legislative employees?
20 SENATOR BRUNO: Not to my
21 recollection, Mr. President.
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: Thank you.
23 Again, would the Majority Leader
5250
1 yield?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Bruno, do you yield?
4 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
5 President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Senator yields.
8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Was there ever
9 an occasion when Earl Brydges or any of Earl
10 Brydges' successors up until the present time -
11 and you know the names, and I don't have to
12 repeat them -- when any of the Majority leaders
13 participated in an action where the legislative
14 employees were not paid?
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Not to my
16 recollection, Mr. President.
17 SENATOR STAVISKY: So Earl
18 Brydges, Warren Anderson, Ralph Mar... Marone...
19 Ralph Marino -
20 SENATOR BRUNO: Ralph Marino,
21 right. How soon we forget, Mr. President.
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: How soon we
23 forget.
5251
1 -- Ralph Marino and others, never
2 participated in an action of this sort?
3 Now, sir -
4 SENATOR BRUNO: Not to my
5 recollection, Mr. President.
6 SENATOR STAVISKY: I ask you the
7 following question, if you would continue to
8 yield.
9 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
10 President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Senator yields.
13 SENATOR STAVISKY: We all
14 recognize the value of the internship programs,
15 both in the Senate and in the Assembly, and I
16 think all of us have been the beneficiaries of
17 that program. Can we have a commitment from you
18 -- you, because obviously you can't speak for
19 the Governor -- that when we notify the
20 universities throughout the state of New York
21 that their internship opportunities available to
22 those students, and we commit ourselves that
23 those opportunities will be available and they
5252
1 commit themselves to helping us to secure
2 interns, that never again will there be an
3 interruption in the compensation paid to those
4 interns that are recommended to us by the
5 universities?
6 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
7 wish that I could foresee the future, but I
8 don't have that capability, so that I would not
9 like to speculate as to what future actions
10 might be on my part because I wouldn't know what
11 I was relating to in the future. Whatever the
12 circumstances may be in the future, we'll have
13 to address at that particular time.
14 SENATOR STAVISKY: Under those
15 circumstances, if the Majority Leader will
16 continue to yield -
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Bruno, do you continue to yield?
19 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Would you
21 encourage the chairman of the Higher Education
22 Committee to send out a letter to the universi
23 tyies indicating that, when internships of any
5253
1 kind are offered, that they make not necessarily
2 guarantee that there will be prompt payment of
3 the stipends that have been offered to these
4 institutions and their students? In the
5 interest of truth, would it not be a wise course
6 of action for you to ask the chairman of the
7 Higher Education Committee to send out such a
8 letter to the universities now so that they will
9 know beforehand what is the likely consequence
10 of the service with this Legislature?
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
12 I'm not sure I understand what the question is.
13 Are you relating -- is the Senator relating to
14 this year or some future year when we may be
15 having the same situation occur?
16 SENATOR STAVISKY: Wouldn't it be
17 truthful, based on the current situation, to
18 assure the universities that they may be asked
19 to provide students for internships, but we do
20 not guarantee that those students, when they
21 become interns or Senate assistants, will be
22 paid promptly and properly? Would it not be a
23 truthful explanation by the Legislature to warn
5254
1 the universities not to send any students who
2 might, in fact, need the money to be able to
3 survive? Shouldn't we do that in the interest
4 of truth in legislating?
5 SENATOR BRUNO: I think, Mr.
6 President, that people that have responsibility
7 would discharge that responsibility as they see
8 fit, prudently, and make the judgments that they
9 see fit at that appropriate time. I don't feel
10 that any compulsion that I should be making
11 recommendations or dictating anything other than
12 that people do the best that they can with the
13 jobs that they have.
14 And I might add, Mr. President,
15 that I appreciate the concern that's being
16 expressed by the good Senator and his col
17 leagues. I share that concern as do colleagues
18 on this side of the aisle and all of us in this
19 chamber would just have hoped that this
20 conversation and this discussion would be
21 unnecessary, and that we would have had a budget
22 in place by now. We passed our budget March
23 31st. We still don't have a budget passed in
5255
1 the other house. I think that's unfortunate.
2 We could have moved forward with conference
3 committees. We could have done whatever was
4 appropriate to help resolve this.
5 I had hoped two weeks ago that
6 this conversation would be unnecessary, but we
7 don't have a budget in place and I guess, Mr.
8 President, I would just relate that I wonder if
9 the good Senator had communicated his desires to
10 get these people paid by getting a budget passed
11 to the Speaker in the Assembly, a colleague of
12 yours, what your wishes might be on behalf of
13 the people that you're referring to, because we
14 passed our bills in this house to get everybody
15 paid. We passed a bill to pay everybody.
16 And this bill, Mr. President, on
17 the floor, is a bill to allow 200,000-plus
18 people to be paid. That's the purpose of the
19 bill that's on the floor. It is not to deny
20 anyone a paycheck. It's to allow over 200,000
21 people to be paid. Without this legislation,
22 those 200,000 people will not be paid.
23 So I think that we ought to be
5256
1 aware of what we're doing on the floor in this
2 bill. We're trying to move legislation forward
3 to pay the 200,000-plus people who are dependent
4 on our action for their paychecks.
5 SENATOR STAVISKY: On the bill.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Stavisky on the bill.
8 SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator Bruno,
9 I wish that you had said that you would be
10 willing to notify each of the universities and
11 colleges in the state of New York that when they
12 accept an invitation to participate in an
13 internship program, that there is a distinct
14 possibility, if there is a fiscal crisis and an
15 impasse, that those legislative interns and
16 Senate assistants will not be paid.
17 I think their services are
18 invaluable. I think you will agree that they
19 are invaluable, and I think that in the
20 interests of seeing that there is no longer
21 hostage-taking, that we at least notify the
22 universities because these are not regular
23 employees of the state Legislature; these are
5257
1 temporary aides who are supposed to benefit from
2 the educational experience, and this is a heck
3 of an educational experience to give them.
4 You're likely to turn them off on government
5 service if this continues any longer, and I say
6 that, under the circumstances, we would be
7 well-advised, perhaps, as legislators interested
8 in higher education, to notify the universities
9 of the sham and the failure to pay these interns
10 and Senate assistants.
11 Perhaps as ranking Minority
12 member on the committee, I should send such a
13 letter, and I have not done so, Senator Bruno,
14 because I still have enough faith in the
15 legislative process, including this house, to
16 believe that by the next payroll we will not be
17 holding any more hostages, and I ask you to
18 consider very carefully that never in Ralph
19 Marino's experience or any of his predecessors
20 did we have any situation comparable to the one
21 that is occurring here today.
22 Change New York called for a
23 change, but it did not call for a system whereby
5258
1 we did not compensate people for work that is
2 done, where they were not responsible for our
3 decisions -- we, as elected officials -- and we
4 should not be passing along to employees who
5 have none of the power to vote, any of the
6 responsibility for the impasse that has occurred
7 here.
8 I will seriously consider this,
9 that if we are not going to have the payment to
10 the employees by the next time there is a bill
11 of this type needed, that I will contact every
12 president of every university and every college
13 in the state, asking them to be aware that there
14 is a danger that their recommended students will
15 not be paid, and I don't think that's the way to
16 go.
17 I would like from you a
18 commitment that this is the last time that the
19 employees will be held hostage, and that you
20 will communicate that to the one person in the
21 state who has the ability to turn the faucet off
22 and to turn it back on again, and I mean by
23 that, the Governor of the state of New York.
5259
1 I'm asking you as a friend, as a
2 colleague, to make that effort, that innocent
3 people are not held responsible for our failure
4 to perform and the Governor's failure to
5 perform, but we must not allow this to happen
6 for any additional pay period. I'm not asking
7 you to say yes or no. I'm asking you to do your
8 best on that issue.
9 Thank you.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Stavisky -- Senator Leichter, why do you rise?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Leichter, why do you rise?
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: I would like
15 to have the floor.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Leichter, we have a list. Senator Stavisky,
18 this is a point of information from the Chair.
19 This bill is put forth by Senator Stafford, and
20 when the Chair recognizes a member, it is with
21 respect to asking questions of the sponsor or
22 debate on the bill, not for the purpose of that
23 member selectively picking out any other member
5260
1 for the purpose of entertaining that debate.
2 Now, Senator Bruno has a propensity to want to
3 be in the center of things, so certainly I'd
4 allow him to do that on this occasion, but I
5 would suggest that we as members recognize that
6 that's the purpose of debates, to either speak
7 on the bill or ask the sponsor of the bill to
8 yield for questions.
9 So with that, Senator Dollinger,
10 the floor is yours.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator
12 Stavisky has said several of the things I wanted
13 to document. I'll just make three quick
14 points. One is I don't understand and I guess
15 my conversation with Senator Marcellino, and I
16 apologize perhaps for the vehemence of my
17 question, but I believe that you can not punish
18 innocent people when you're trying to affect the
19 conduct of the guilty people and that's what
20 we're doing. We're punishing a group of people
21 like one who works for me as an attorney. He
22 makes a very good salary, has seven children, is
23 carrying two houses, doesn't have a nickel to
5261
1 his name. As my grandmother used to say, he
2 doesn't have two nickels to rub together and
3 he's bearing the cost because the Governor, the
4 man who stays on the second floor, believes that
5 if he doesn't get paid he's going to walk into
6 my office and say, Rick, please vote for this
7 budget and urge all of your colleagues to vote
8 for a budget that takes money away from the
9 poor, that changes the SUNY tuition system, that
10 does all the things that this budget might do
11 once we get to its final version. I don't
12 understand why that innocent person is being
13 asked to put pressure on me and on me alone.
14 Two, I guess I don't understand
15 what the Senate's role in this process is.
16 Isn't it very simple? I wonder, let's go back
17 one year from today and suppose I got up on the
18 floor and said, you know, the Governor on the
19 second floor is beating up the New York State
20 Senate. He's now cut a deal in which he's not
21 going to pay a hundred of his employees and in
22 exchange for that, he's not going to pay 3,000
23 of yours, and he's going to take the system of
5262
1 checks and balances, and he's going to disrupt
2 it completely, and he's going to punish the
3 members of the New York State Senate and all of
4 their employees. I dare say there are at least
5 35 people in this chamber would have jumped to
6 their feet and would have said, We're not going
7 to let that Governor treat us that way.
8 This house has to be respected.
9 I was once lectured by Senator Marino about the
10 respect for this house. We're not going to let
11 the Governor on the second floor highjack the
12 reputation of this house. I don't hear any of
13 that talk except from the other 25 members that
14 happen to sit on this side of the aisle.
15 What has changed in a year? Well,
16 let's see, the Governor on the second floor is
17 now Republican, and I gather that the Senate is
18 no longer respecting its traditions, no longer
19 protecting its traditions, no longer protecting
20 its prerogatives and no longer protecting its
21 employees. Instead, they've decided that
22 they're going to jump in with the man who lives
23 on the second floor and let their tradition of
5263
1 the Senate go down the drain. I think that's
2 greatly unfortunate.
3 I'll close with one other
4 comment. Look at all the people who are paid.
5 The Commissioner of Correctional Services, he
6 gets $102,000; the Commissioner of Education
7 will get $102,000; the Commissioner of Health
8 gets $150,000. The Commissioner of Environ
9 mental Conservation gets $95,000. Bob King,
10 from Monroe County, the Director of Regulatory
11 Affairs gets 104,000. The Commissioner of
12 Economic Development, Mr. Gargano, has got lots
13 of money, he continues to get his $90,000 a
14 year. The Commissioner of Parks and Recreation,
15 the millionaire Bernadette Castro, she continues
16 to get $90,000 a year. The chairman of the
17 Cable Commission, the very commission the
18 Governor wants to abolish in this budget,
19 continues to draw his pay at the rate of $82,000
20 a year.
21 The unit heads in the Division of
22 Budget, all of whom have a big impact on this
23 budget, continue to get paid more than $100,000
5264
1 a year, and yet the woman who works part time in
2 the session for me as a secretary who gets paid
3 $7800, doesn't get paid. Doesn't get paid, for
4 one month while she waits for the process to
5 work.
6 I said it before, Mr. Chairman,
7 I'll say it one more time. This is the
8 equivalent of total political warfare. This is
9 punishing the innocent to somehow affect the
10 conduct of the guilty, of supposedly the
11 guilty. It doesn't seem to make a whit's worth
12 of sense to me.
13 Let's return some sense. Let's
14 take those lessons that I was taught about the
15 respect for this chamber and let's put it into
16 place. Let's tell the Governor on the second
17 floor that he can't run the legislative
18 operation in this state. I think we're setting
19 a very dangerous precedent. I hate to say it
20 but the 36 people on the other side of the
21 aisle, this will come back to haunt you some
22 day.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
5265
1 recognizes Senator Gold.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Thank
3 you.
4 Mr. President, a lot of -- we're
5 silly to say this stuff every couple of weeks,
6 and I think the political posturing is now out
7 there and the Republicans have blamed the other
8 house, and we've made our points, and I'd like
9 to get to do something useful if it's possible
10 and with that in mind, I would ask Senator Bruno
11 to yield.
12 And let me remind you, Mr.
13 President, that this is either a budget bill or
14 a Rules bill, and there's nothing improper in
15 asking any member ever to yield and -- but I
16 think if Senator Bruno would do me the courtesy.
17 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
18 President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Bruno, as a single member, Senator Bruno does
21 yield, but your interpretation of the rules of
22 this house are, in fact, incorrect as it relates
23 to other members, but Senator Bruno yields.
5266
1 SENATOR GOLD: Well -
2 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Bruno yields.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Senator
6 Bruno, I want to get something useful if we can
7 out of this, and I know you for a lot of years
8 and you were a staff member and you know what
9 that feeling is but, as you stand here today,
10 Senator, you're more than a staff member.
11 You're someone who, over the years, deserves to
12 be admired as a very successful businessman and
13 when you became the leader of this house, you
14 made it a point to tell everybody that you
15 thought this place would do better running to
16 some extent as a business. We start on time,
17 which is a miracle, and it's your miracle.
18 We've heard the back and forth
19 positioning. You've heard the comments of
20 Senator Connor, which I thought were very well
21 taken, in terms of the fact that these people
22 must work. They don't come to work for their
23 personalities. So what I'm getting at, and the
5267
1 question I want to ask you is really a simple
2 one: It's a simple one. What arrangements have
3 been made -- we're now talking to the thousands
4 of employees who work for the Senate, who are
5 listening to you and who respect you -- have
6 there been arrangements made for these people to
7 go to banks in the area who understand the
8 Legislature? Are there any financial
9 institutions in the area who know the way the
10 Legislature works? Have you told any of these
11 people, for example the lady who wrote a letter
12 from your district, what banks they might go to
13 to get some kind of a bridge loan? Have you
14 made any arrangements for them within your own
15 conference?
16 People are listening. Just the
17 average guy, not me and not the people in this
18 room, why don't you now, while we go over the
19 microphones, tell the average guy that works for
20 the Senate how he or she gets along in these
21 next few days and what you anticipate not only
22 as a caring human being but as a businessman who
23 understands what it is to be a staff member, to
5268
1 be an employee and to have to pay the mortgage
2 and the rent and the food and the bus fare.
3 Just tell them because it would be good for
4 them, not politics, but good for them. What
5 should all of these residents of Troy and Albany
6 and the ones throughout the state do in the next
7 few weeks and please don't insult all of us by
8 saying, Call the Speaker and get him to do a
9 budget. Forget that nonsense.
10 You talk to the Speaker. He's a
11 bigger "shoot"; you're a big shot, you know.
12 You guys talk on your level. Just tell the
13 average guy how they can get the money to pay
14 these bills in the next few weeks.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you,
16 Senator Gold.
17 We have put out some information
18 that relates to conversations with some of the
19 local banks, and the local banks have made
20 themselves available to loan money to people
21 that would qualify. One I know, I don't want to
22 mention the banks, but a number of the banks in
23 the Capital District, and if you need the names
5269
1 of banks, we'd be happy to supply them, but I
2 believe that the staff people have received
3 memos indicating that they could apply for
4 credit and that their applications would be
5 handled expeditiously given the circumstances,
6 and we have tried to lend support to that
7 through our office.
8 Also, Mr. President, employees
9 have access to the credit unions that make loans
10 and then will take the repayment out of the
11 paychecks when they start to flow, so there are
12 ways that people who have needs can meet those
13 needs, and it is unfortunate, Mr. President,
14 that we again have to talk about ways that
15 people can pay their bills, and I am very
16 sympathetic to that, and it concerns me a great
17 deal, and we have discussed that. We have done
18 our best to move the process forward. We want
19 to see the people get paid.
20 People are working seven days a
21 week, some of these people, 14, 16, 18 hours a
22 day. I thought that you'd be interested in
23 this, Senator Gold.
5270
1 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, I am.
2 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes. And they
3 have been working diligently. Yesterday,
4 Sunday, I had conversations throughout the day
5 with staff people that were here. Saturday all
6 day, for that matter, talked with staff people
7 that were here, so I am well aware of how
8 diligent these people are, trying to move the
9 process forward and trying to be helpful to us
10 and I am very sympathetic and I feel very, very
11 badly that we, again, are facing a situation
12 that's creating so much hardship for people.
13 So yes, we have tried to be
14 supportive in making credit available through
15 the normal institutions that are there to help
16 people who need money short term or long term.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Will
18 the Senator yield to one more question?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Bruno, do you yield?
21 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
22 President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5271
1 yields.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I heard
3 what you said, and I'd like to encourage you to
4 take it another step further. You say you don't
5 want to mention the institutions. We've spoken.
6 I would suggest, and I want to ask you this as a
7 question. Would you be willing, if not on the
8 floor, to at least have some of your senior
9 staff talk to some of the local banks because,
10 when you say people who are qualified, I'm not
11 worried about people who are qualified. There
12 are people who, in a banking sense, may not be
13 qualified but who every day come to work, get a
14 paycheck. They don't have credit cards, they
15 don't have other loans because maybe they're not
16 qualified, and they're in worse conditions,
17 Senator Bruno, than people who have good credit,
18 and when you say go to a credit union and
19 whatever, that's easy to say.
20 I don't know whether or not you
21 are envisioning, Senator, that we will pay the
22 interest to these people for the money that we
23 are withholding, earned money, because the
5272
1 people have to come to work. I don't know
2 whether you're envisioning us doing that.
3 The other thing which is
4 disturbing, I mean there was a memo put out on
5 March 30th, by Steve Sloan, and there were
6 questions and answers in here, and he says
7 things like, What about my mortgage or lease
8 payments, car loans, et cetera, becoming due?
9 And his answer was, such obligations are private
10 matters between you and those parties. However,
11 you should advise them that there's a problem.
12 Senator, you know, I -- I'm
13 talking to you, and if you don't want to answer
14 me on the record, but you do something about it,
15 I'll love you and respect you anyway but,
16 Senator, there are people who are not going to
17 be taken care of by the political bickering
18 between my side of the aisle, your side of the
19 aisle, this house and the other house, and I
20 would say, Senator Bruno, that now, the third
21 time around is the time for compassion and that
22 your office, since you're not going to do
23 anything today, I mean let's not kid ourselves.
5273
1 This bill is going to pass and all of this talk
2 back and forth will be nothing, and we'll do the
3 same thing in two more weeks.
4 But, Senator, I urge you, because
5 you are a decent human being whose political
6 philosophies I can't buy, but a decent human
7 being, Senator. In all seriousness, talk to
8 some of the local institutions. Maybe one of
9 the banks, and I'm not going to press you on it
10 by naming them on the floor, the local ones.
11 There's a bank that's on the Concourse, maybe
12 they would, as a good faith matter, as an
13 introduction to new clients, would just from
14 being here and understanding, if Joe Bruno
15 called them, would put together a program so
16 that these people could assign their paychecks
17 or do something that at least they, on a
18 day-to-day level, would have some intelligent
19 situation.
20 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
21 believe Albany Savings Bank has a program in
22 place and they will relate to people who go in,
23 and I am fairly certain that they will be
5274
1 responsive and people can borrow with an
2 institution by pledging their paycheck and get
3 their paycheck in advance so there are mechanics
4 that have been discussed and put in place.
5 I would hope that most people, if
6 they're listening or have received some memos to
7 that effect, would be aware of that and avail
8 themselves of that if they find themselves in
9 that need. But Albany Savings is one of the
10 banks that comes to mind that had extended
11 themselves in a particular way. There were
12 others that I -- I don't recall, but I remember
13 Albany Savings because it's within walking
14 distance of here.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, if
16 I may, that's the kind of information which I
17 think we owe it to our staffs to get around. I
18 think a memo from you would be helpful, and
19 there are people that may not have heard that
20 today because once the bickering is over today,
21 the same people who had a financial problem last
22 week and the week before are going to have it
23 tomorrow and the day after.
5275
1 SENATOR BRUNO: Well, also in
2 finishing my answer, Mr. President, I would
3 suggest that individual legislators with their
4 staff can help direct them to proper
5 institutions. We have indicated that to people
6 that we have talked to that we should be helpful
7 in getting them to the right places because
8 you're right, some of them aren't aware of the
9 mechanics of how to handle this, and it's
10 somewhat intimidating, but I think that if we
11 here in the house are helpful to them, I think
12 that would be a real service that we would be
13 providing.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Paterson, why do you rise?
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
17 Senator Gold had the floor?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Gold had the floor. Senator Leichter is next on
20 the list.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Would Senator
22 Gold yield to a question?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5276
1 Gold, do you yield?
2 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, sir.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Gold,
4 as noble as it is to recommend the lending
5 institutions, the lending institutions, it would
6 seem to me this would be the best time of the
7 year for them, not just being helpful. They
8 charge interest on these loans, don't they?
9 SENATOR GOLD: I think so.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: One final
11 question, if Senator Gold would yield.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Gold, do you continue to yield?
14 SENATOR GOLD: Yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 continues to yield.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, the
18 reason that I didn't ask anyone any questions on
19 this particular issue is that I knew that
20 individuals like Senator Bruno were interested
21 and were doing something. But do you find it
22 disturbing that we now have very high officials
23 in the state spending large and long periods of
5277
1 time trying to figure out what -- how to
2 facilitate loans to individuals when, if we had
3 just included everyone in this bill that was
4 sitting here, we could spend all that time
5 trying to negotiate a budget?
6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President,
7 Senator Paterson apparently understands the
8 point that I was trying to make which I think
9 went over some other people's head.
10 The answer is that you are
11 exactly right, Senator Paterson. The point is
12 that once we get rid of all of these wonderful
13 principles that we talk about, we ought to be
14 looking to see where those principles lead us.
15 It is not enough to tell people that my
16 principles lead me to a path and wherever that
17 path goeth, I goeth. If you know a path is
18 leading into a direction which is dangerous or
19 unjust, you shouldn't get on that path.
20 Now, Senator Bruno, I respect the
21 fact that you have a right to different
22 conclusions than I do, and I know you've always
23 been respectful of my right also but, Senator,
5278
1 we are going through machinations to get local
2 institutions to take care of people who are
3 faced with a hardship that we created.
4 Senator, we are creating the
5 hardship, and it's not Silver and it's not the
6 Assembly and it's not the budget process.
7 That's all junk. That's stuff on a level that
8 these people never got into, never bargained
9 for. They are working people. I remember,
10 Senator Bruno, when you and I were staff people
11 in the Assembly in the early 1900s, I think, and
12 Senator, in those days, you know, people would
13 say to you, if you worked for the Legislature,
14 they would say to you, "Who's your Rabbi?" I
15 know somebody by the name of John Calandra, may
16 he rest in peace, who I loved -- loved. Johnny
17 said to me one day, "Hey, kid," he said, "who's
18 your Rabbi?" I said, "Saul Teplis at the Queens
19 Village Jewish Center." He says, "I don't care
20 where you go to church. I mean who's your Rabbi
21 that helped you get your job." You had to have
22 a Rabbi to get you in the Legislature.
23 Today I like to think that many
5279
1 of you operate the way I do and many of you who
2 are in the area and are talented and come from
3 proper recommendations get jobs, and they may
4 not be registered in one party or the other, but
5 these are decent people who come to work for the
6 Legislature and the jobs are simple jobs, every
7 day business jobs. They're the business people
8 that Senator Bruno respects so much. They're
9 not political hacks; they're not politicians.
10 They're simple business people. Two people have
11 houses next to each other out in Troy, Senator
12 Bruno. They drive their cars. One's a
13 secretary for a local law firm; one works for
14 the Legislature. One's a secretary perhaps for
15 a local brokerage company; the other one works
16 for the Legislature, but they're simple business
17 people, and to work out a system whereby we get
18 on a road, we get on a path that we somehow make
19 religious that puts those people into a
20 situation where we now have to solve a problem
21 for them as if we never caused it and we were no
22 part of it is just a silly situation to put
23 ourselves in.
5280
1 It's a situation that Joe Bruno
2 in the privacy of his own mind doesn't like, I
3 know that, but then the answer is we don't do
4 it. That's all. We don't do it, and we don't
5 worry about embarrassing this one or that one.
6 We just do it as right.
7 Senator Bruno, I'm glad you said
8 what you said today because, in all fairness, I
9 think there should be a memo. I don't know how
10 many people knew about Albany Savings. I don't
11 know what the Key Bank is doing. I don't know
12 how we explain to these people that you can work
13 and lose ten percent interest over a period of
14 time because now you got to pay for your
15 paycheck to be gotten because you pledged it. I
16 don't know what sense that makes, but at least
17 if something's being done, Senator Bruno, so
18 let's take that out of politics and you have my
19 congratulations. But let's not congratulate
20 ourselves too much because, as the deputy leader
21 on this side pointed out, we are breaking our
22 arm patting ourselves on the back by trying to
23 find a solution to a problem that we caused.
5281
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Waldon, why do you rise?
3 SENATOR WALDON: I would like to
4 know if the good Senator from Queens County,
5 Senator Gold, would yield to a question.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Gold, do you yield to Senator Waldon.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, sir.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 yields.
11 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I'm not
12 sure that I heard you correctly but I thought
13 that I heard you say some -- let me rephrase
14 that. Are you familiar in the real estate law
15 with the phrase "constructive eviction"?
16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, sir.
17 SENATOR WALDON: Are you -- if I
18 may continue, Mr. President. May I continue?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Waldon, pardon an interruption for just a minute
21 but Senator Stafford, as I understand -- excuse
22 me. Go ahead. Senator Gold, do you continue to
23 yield?
5282
1 SENATOR GOLD: Yes.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Are you also
3 familiar, Senator Gold, with the phrase, and I
4 may not be accurate because I've never practiced
5 labor law, "constructive firing"?
6 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. I've heard
7 about these phrases, by the way, at my offices
8 at Herzfeld & Rubin, at 40 Wall Street, New
9 York, New York, (212) 344-5500.
10 VOICE: $300 an hour.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Don't lower my
12 rates, I'll take care of it.
13 SENATOR WALDON: Under the
14 penumbral zone of constructive firing, could you
15 characterize what's happening to certain
16 employees of the Senate now who are, in fact,
17 working, as our good Senator and leader, Senator
18 Bruno said, some seven days a week, some 14, 16,
19 18 hours a day, might that be characterized as
20 constructive firing?
21 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, before I
22 answer that, why don't you give me your analysis
23 of it, because you will phrase it better than
5283
1 I. I'm interested in hearing your view on that
2 subject.
3 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
4 much, if I may continue, very much.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Gold, you continue to yield?
7 SENATOR GOLD: Oh, yes, yes.
8 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Gold, I
9 believe that, when people come to work and work
10 diligently, honestly, deliver all of the
11 services demanded upon them and from them by
12 their superior, supervisor and the institution
13 that they work for and they are denied pay, they
14 have, in effect, been constructively fired.
15 I also believe in this instance
16 that those who are constructively fired being
17 that this baby, the constructive firing, is the
18 issue of the legislative process through the
19 executive branch, that they have a right for
20 redress from the state, not from Albany Savings
21 Bank, not from Key savings bank, not from Joe,
22 the shylock around the corner, and therefore,
23 they should in my opinion be allowed to go to
5284
1 the unemployment agency and file and, in fact, I
2 would like to lay out on the air that, if each
3 of us were to create a fiction for our employees
4 and fire them, then one week from today they
5 could qualify or thereabouts, qualify for
6 unemployment, they could receive as a benefit
7 one week later one half of their weekly wages up
8 to $300 a week. They wouldn't have to worry
9 about paying interest; they wouldn't have to
10 worry about filling out paperwork for a loan.
11 It would be the concern of the state to ensure
12 that they had enough money to exist at least for
13 26 weeks until this process is over, and I hope
14 that within 26 weeks that we will be able to
15 have a budget.
16 Now, if one of my employees were
17 to come to me after I make the statement on this
18 floor and say, "Senator Waldon, I heard what you
19 said. Are you a man of your word?" I would have
20 to bite the bullet. I'm not saying that, as an
21 institution, is what we should do, but I'm
22 suggesting that that is a course of action that
23 we might assume.
5285
1 In any event, circumstances see
2 it as constructive firing, what's happening. I
3 also see if as involuntary servitude. I would
4 hope, as you have said, as the good Senator
5 Paterson has said, as I believe in the hearts of
6 people like the great Senator from Staten
7 Island, John Marchi, our good Senator from
8 Rensselaer, our leader, Senator Bruno, Senator
9 Volker, all the guys who are and ladies who I
10 believe in their heart recognize that this is
11 wrong, this is visceral, that this is vicious,
12 it is abusive, and it is an abuse of power and
13 authority, that they would agree that we have
14 constructively fired our employees. They have a
15 right to unemployment, and maybe we ought to
16 facilitate that process.
17 I thank you for yielding, Senator
18 Gold. I appreciate your indulgence and, Mr.
19 President, I certainly appreciate your
20 indulgence. Thank you.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
22 recognizes Senator Leichter.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
5286
1 if Senator Marcellino would be good enough to
2 yield, and I appreciate he was out getting some
3 much needed rest and recreation. I said -
4 asked him to come back in because I wanted to
5 ask him a question. He's had to listen to a lot
6 of other debate since then and thank you,
7 Senator, for your patience.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Leichter, the Chair would remind you, as I have
10 earlier members, that the proponent of this bill
11 is Senator Stafford. It has traditionally not
12 been the experience nor the practice in this
13 house for a person when they're recognized on
14 the floor to pick out selectively or non
15 selectively members on the other side of the
16 aisle to answer questions. So while I do not
17 want to deny Mr. -- Senator Marcellino from
18 responding, acknowledging an inquisition from
19 you, I would just point out to you that it is
20 totally out of the practice of this house.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
22 just -- I'm sorry, Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
5287
1 me, Senator Leichter.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Sure.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Paterson, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
6 if Senator Leichter would suffer an interruption
7 for a second? We've been on this point for a
8 couple of occasions today, and I just want to
9 get this cleared up.
10 Out of practice and out of
11 order. This may not be the way we've usually
12 done it but, you know, we come here on time
13 now. We have Senator Bruno in charge. We're
14 doing much better than we used to be, and what
15 I'm saying is that, and in all seriousness, I
16 don't understand that we can not ask another
17 member who has some opinion on the subject that
18 we're talking about to yield for a question.
19 I don't see anything in the
20 Senate rules -- I've been looking at them since
21 you raised this a little earlier -- that
22 actually prohibits that.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Well, the
5288
1 position -- I should say the Chair is not in a
2 position and has not ruled on this, Senator
3 Paterson. It just has been the practice of this
4 house, and the Chair has been reminded of that
5 on a number of occasions that this is out of the
6 ordinary.
7 Now, there are several instances
8 just for instance, there are several instances,
9 Senator, that Senator Marcellino could rise and
10 ask Senator Kruger to yield. Well, Senator
11 Kruger doesn't happen to be in the chamber at
12 this moment. Now, that has not been the
13 practice of members of this house to try to
14 embarrass other members, and that is part of the
15 position of this particular Chair is to make
16 sure that members are acting accordingly, and I
17 think responsibly and certainly politely and
18 graciously, so while I raise the point of this
19 and just try to bring it to your attention, I am
20 not precluding Senator Marcellino -- that's his
21 option as to whether or not he wishes to yield
22 to a question or not, so I'll ask him at this
23 point, Senator Marcellino, do you yield to
5289
1 Senator Leichter?
2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I yield.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Senator yields.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you.
6 Mr. President, just as a preface, let me say
7 I've been in this house many years, even longer
8 than you have, and I believe that we've had this
9 practice where somebody may wish to ask a
10 question of a member who has stood up and made a
11 statement on the floor or asked somebody who, in
12 fact, is responding to a question asked by
13 another member.
14 So, Senator, it -- it may well be
15 that -- I know you worked hard earlier passing
16 two very significant bills and that your views
17 may be affected by the work that you did earlier
18 today, but I submit to you that you're -- you're
19 wrong. In any event, I thank Senator Marcellino
20 for yielding and the reason I asked him to yield
21 is because I was out of the floor temporarily.
22 I came back in; there was a heated debate be
23 tween him and Senator Dollinger and there were
5290
1 comments made that, frankly, perplexed me and
2 that I wanted to get some clarification on.
3 Both Senator Marcellino and
4 Senator Dollinger were talking about guilty
5 people, and I wanted to know in this Capitol,
6 are there people that are guilty, Senator?
7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: With all due
8 respect, Senator, it was not I who used the term
9 "guilty people," and I never take personally
10 anything that is brought, and if someone argues
11 with fervor their point of view, I do not take
12 it personally nor did I take Senator Dollinger's
13 fervent belief in his point of view personally.
14 I don't think he was directing it at me in a
15 personal way.
16 I do believe that everyone in
17 this -- everyone should be paid, I would agree
18 with that. I mean we all would agree with that,
19 and I think it would be the desire of every
20 Senator in this chamber to do that. Unfortun
21 ately we're not in a position to do that, and I
22 would suggest again that the reason for that is
23 that we don't have a budget and we don't have a
5291
1 budget from the other chamber and, if we had a
2 budget from the other chamber, we wouldn't be
3 engaged in this exercise for the last couple of
4 hours which, frankly, in my opinion has been a
5 waste of time. We could be doing far more
6 productive things such as passing a budget and
7 we're not. We're debating for what purpose, I
8 don't know, but we're debating.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Leichter.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
13 Marcellino will yield.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Marcellino, do you now continue to yield to
16 another question from Senator Leichter?
17 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Sure I do.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, thank
19 you.
20 I think you're beginning to put
21 this in a better perspective for me, in a better
22 position, and as to whether there are guilty
23 people here or not, and I think you're right it
5292
1 was Senator Dollinger who was using that
2 phrase. But is it your -- is it your position
3 that it's the obligation of the Assembly to pass
4 the Senate version of the budget and that unless
5 that be done, that nobody in this Capitol,
6 referring now to legislative employees and the
7 corporal guard in the executive chamber should
8 be paid?
9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, I
10 believe the process is that both houses could
11 pass -- if they passed the same budget that
12 would be ideal, but if they passed their version
13 budgets, Senator Bruno has said and we're ready
14 to go with conference committees and make it
15 work, we could put together our differences as
16 we did in the 65-mile-an-hour bill. Both houses
17 came together, conferenced, a bill was put
18 together that was agreed upon in conference and
19 passed by this chamber.
20 We could do the same thing with
21 budget bills. They don't have to agree with
22 everything we do. You do not have to agree with
23 everything I believe in and vice versa
5293
1 obviously. If the Assembly would put something
2 on the table then we could get together and put
3 our differences together and come to something
4 positive, and then my hard working staff that is
5 probably listening to this comment right now as
6 well as all of your hard working staffs could be
7 paid as well as us, which would make my wife
8 very happy.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
10 Marcellino, again through the Chair.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Leichter, are you asking Senator Marcellino to
13 yield?
14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, I
15 yield; yes, I will.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 yields.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is it your
19 position that if the Assembly passed a budget,
20 and they have passed budgets bills, they may
21 take the position that the Senate hasn't passed
22 a comprehensive budget, but I assume that the
23 Senate has -- let's assume that the Assembly has
5294
1 or if the Assembly passes a budget, and I know
2 they've passed budget bills, at that point, even
3 though there are differences, under your view,
4 should everybody be entitled to be paid?
5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Once there
6 is a budget passed by the state and by this -
7 by both chambers and signed off by the Governor,
8 then we have a budget and it's my understanding
9 right now that the Assembly has not passed a
10 comprehensive budget, not passed complete bills,
11 so we really can't negotiate anything, can we,
12 because you can't negotiate a part which could
13 be bigger than the whole.
14 So I think we have a problem and
15 it can be resolved best if we could just get a
16 complete budget from the other chamber and put
17 our conference committees to work and then
18 everybody could get satisfaction.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
20 Marcellino, if you continue to yield.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Marcellino, do you continue to yield?
23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I will
5295
1 continued to yield as long as the Senator has
2 questions.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 continues to yield.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
6 Marcellino, I'm having trouble with your
7 answers.
8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'm having
9 trouble with your questions, sir.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: I understand
11 you are, and I can understand why. But,
12 Senator, if the Assembly passes a budgets,
13 comprehensive budget -- this is hypothetical -
14 and the Senators pass a comprehensive budget -
15 again this is also hypothetical -- the two
16 budgets do not conform, there are disagreements
17 between them and then they go into negotiation
18 through conference committees, are they entitled
19 to be paid at that point; or is it your view
20 that the people only are entitled to be paid
21 when there is a budget that's signed by the
22 Governor?
23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator,
5296
1 I'll say it again, we would do a disservice to
2 every member of the tax-paying public, and that
3 includes our employees, if we did not pass a
4 proper legal budget. I think we would have
5 better served everyone in this state had such a
6 budget been passed by April 1st. Then we would
7 not be here. There would be no exercise that
8 we're going through. We would not be hearing
9 the same question asked six different times in
10 hopes that we would get the same non-answer,
11 you're not going to get.
12 I do believe that everyone should
13 be paid when we have a budget passed, signed in
14 legal law, lawful budget, which requires an
15 agreement of both houses, signed by the
16 Governor.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: And not -
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Leichter, you asking the Senator to continue to
20 yield?
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Marcellino, you continue to yield?
5297
1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I continue
2 to yield.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: And, Senator,
4 until such a budget is passed, people are not
5 entitled to be paid?
6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator,
7 that's a determination that the Governor has
8 made, and we are here trying to get a budget
9 passed.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well -
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Leichter, you asking Senator Marcellino to
13 continue to yield?
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Marcellino, do you continue to yield?
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 yields.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, there
21 is a bill on the floor. You and I, as cogs in
22 this whole operation, are required to vote on
23 it. The Governor has the power of signing or
5298
1 vetoing, so it isn't just a matter of the
2 Governor is to decide. You and I have to decide,
3 and my question to you is, based on what you've
4 said, that when a budget is signed, people are
5 entitled to be paid, the other side of the coin,
6 if that's your view, that until that budget is
7 passed, people are not entitled to be paid.
8 Now, that's what I'm trying to
9 get you to clarify for me.
10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, I
11 think I've answered that question -- it's the
12 same question -- on numerous occasions. I think
13 the court -- the stenographer could read it
14 back, but I think I've given you an answer to
15 that question, I truly do.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: And the answer
17 is that they're not entitled to be paid; is that
18 your answer?
19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: No, my
20 answer is what I have stated at least five times
21 already.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. I thank
23 my good friend for his, I won't say clarifica
5299
1 tion, but for the way he dealt with the -- with
2 the matter. Just very briefly, Mr. President,
3 because I addressed myself on this before.
4 I have trouble when people talk
5 about guilty and not guilty, and I appreciate
6 and understand the point that Senator Dollinger
7 who used the term "guilty" was trying to make.
8 He was trying to say that certainly the
9 responsibility that there is not a budget does
10 not lie with staff people. In fact, I think all
11 of us will recognize, and will have to admit the
12 staff people work extremely hard on both sides
13 of the aisle and on both ends of the Capitol.
14 They're working harder even than the
15 legislators. I think the legislators are
16 working hard.
17 My point is, and which has
18 troubled me throughout the idea that legislators
19 who are here who are working, because they
20 disagree among themselves or they disagree with
21 the Governor, that they're not entitled to be
22 paid. Now, of course, it makes if even worse to
23 say that those people who don't vote on the
5300
1 budget, that is the staff who we acknowledge are
2 working very hard, are not entitled to be paid,
3 entitled to be paid because you don't agree with
4 the Governor, or you people aren't entitled -
5 "you" being the Senate Majority -- aren't
6 entitled to be paid because you don't agree with
7 the Assembly Majority or the Assembly Majority
8 isn't entitled to be paid because they don't
9 agree with you.
10 What sort of a concept are we
11 putting into our democratic system? It's
12 appalling. It's shameful, and it becomes really
13 particularly disturbing and distressing when
14 secretaries, staff members, particularly those
15 who are not paid very much and who are really
16 dependent on this paycheck to meet the basic
17 human needs of putting bread on the table,
18 keeping shelter, are not being paid.
19 It's just not the way to
20 proceed. It's just wrong. I understand this is
21 the position of the Governor. I think he's
22 pandering. He's showboating. We've established
23 that he got that bad idea from the previous
5301
1 Governor who, at least as I pointed out, was
2 smart enough actually never to implement it, but
3 it's -- it's the sort of cheapening of
4 democracy, of the simple solutions that may sell
5 well with the public initially, like term
6 limits, don't pay legislators unless they come
7 up with a budget.
8 I'm sure, if I went to your
9 district, Senator, and there's some aspects of
10 this budget that I'm sure your constituents
11 don't like, maybe the fact that there's going to
12 be a higher tuition at SUNY and what? Are we
13 going to base whether you get paid or not or
14 whether anybody else gets paid on whether those
15 people are satisfied with that particular
16 provision?
17 Doesn't make sense. It's -- we
18 shouldn't be doing this because we're hurting
19 the -- the most important thing we have. More
20 important than a budget, is a Constitution which
21 is a governmental process which is a democratic
22 system, and never before in any state that I
23 know of and certainly not nationally has the
5302
1 compensation of legislators and their staff ever
2 been based on whether they perform in a way that
3 the Governor likes. That's terrible.
4 Just -- just look at the propo
5 sition for a moment, so, Senator Marcellino, and
6 I understand you're not the one who used that,
7 what I find offensive term of "guilty". No
8 guilty people here. There's a basic disagree
9 ment, some very deep philosophical disagreement
10 that people are entitled to work out without
11 being told, Unless you work it out right now and
12 do it the way that I want, you're not going to
13 get paid, and I'm not going to pay your staff.
14 Not the way to do it.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
16 recognizes Senator Abate.
17 SENATOR ABATE: I was not going
18 to speak, but I was thinking today about the
19 result of this decision, and rightfully so.
20 We've spent the last four weeks talking about
21 the devastating impact this decision will have
22 on our staffs, hard working staffs that have
23 little to do with when the budget gets passed,
5303
1 what's going to be in the budget or really any
2 of the details surrounding that budget, and I
3 think all of us agree if we put the rhetoric
4 aside, the politics aside, that these innocent
5 hard working staff should be paid and we should
6 go about the business of ensuring a budget is
7 resolved.
8 But there's another issue that's
9 very important here that I think we're all miss
10 ing, is the long-term impact of this decision
11 and how this decision will irreparably harm the
12 institution called the state Legislature because
13 I know I, for one, will have to hire staff in
14 the near future. I have staff that will be
15 leaving me that will only make short-term
16 commitments, and I have to now be in the
17 business in this spring to ask people, the best
18 and the brightest people, to interview and want
19 to work for the Legislature.
20 What am I going to say to the
21 best and the brightest? How am I going to
22 attracted these individuals to come to work with
23 the Legislature when they know that we're not a
5304
1 Legislature of our word, when we can't say to
2 them, If you work an honest day, you'll get paid
3 for that honest day of work? How are we going
4 to get these individuals around the state, the
5 people who graduate from our universities, who
6 are good, to say, Well, come on, you want to be
7 public servants, you want to be altruistic, it's
8 O.K., work for the Legislature.
9 I can not now, given this recent
10 history, say to these individuals, Don't worry
11 about it, next year this happens you'll get
12 paid. I can't say that. If we pass this budget
13 language, again saying that this will be a
14 recurring incident that these hard working
15 staffs may not get paid not only next week but
16 maybe not next year, how are we going to hire
17 these exceptional individuals?
18 I think we're arrogant if we
19 think we can exist with mediocre staff. We are
20 as good as our staff and, if we cannot hire the
21 best and the brightest, we're not just hurting
22 the individuals today we can't pay, we're
23 hurting the institution, this great institution
5305
1 called the state Senate.
2 Let's reflect. We will pay the
3 price in the long run if we don't reverse this
4 decision.
5 Thank you.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
7 will read the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
14 the results.
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno.
19 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
20 can we now call up Calendar Number 609.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
22 will read Calendar Number 609.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5306
1 609, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4476, an act
2 making appropriation for the support of
3 government.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
5 will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll. )
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
13 is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
16 can we now call up Calendar Number 610.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
18 will read Calendar Number 610.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 610, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4477, an act to
21 provide for payments to municipalities and
22 providers of medical services.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
5307
1 will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
9 is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno.
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
12 can we now take up Calendar Number 611.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
14 will read Calendar Number 611.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 611, Budget Bill, Senate Print 4478, an act to
17 provide for payments to vendors under the Women,
18 Infants and Children's program.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
20 will read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5308
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
5 is passed.
6 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno.
7 SENATOR BRUNO: Could you
8 recognize Senator Stafford, please.
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you.
10 Thank you, Senator Bruno.
11 Mr. President, I would announce
12 that the Finance Committee meeting scheduled for
13 tomorrow at 11:00 will now be called from the
14 floor to take place in Room 332.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate
16 Finance Committee scheduled for tomorrow morning
17 at 11:00 o'clock will be called off the floor
18 tomorrow.
19 Chair recognizes Senator Bruno.
20 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
21 are there any housekeeping items at the desk
22 that should be handled at this time?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's
5309
1 no housekeeping at the desk, Senator Bruno.
2 SENATOR BRUNO: That being the
3 case, Mr. President, there being no further
4 business to come before the Senate, I move that
5 we stand adjourned until tomorrow, May 2nd, at
6 11:00 a.m.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
8 objection, Senate stands adjourned until
9 tomorrow, May 2nd, at 11:00 a.m.
10 (Whereupon, at 7:00 p.m., the
11 Senate adjourned.)
12
13
14
15