Regular Session - June 12, 1995
8654
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 June 12, 1995
10 10:02 a.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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16
17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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8655
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senate will come to order. Members, those who
4 are here, please find their places. Ask you all
5 to rise and join with me in saying the Pledge of
6 Allegiance to the Flag.
7 (The assemblage repeated the
8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
9 In the absence of clergy, may we
10 bow our heads in a moment of silence.
11 (A moment of silence was
12 observed.)
13 Reading of the Journal.
14 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
15 Sunday -
16 SENATOR BRUNO: Excuse me. I
17 wonder if we could have a roll call before we
18 start the proceedings.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will call the roll.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Babbush.
8656
1 (There was no response.)
2 Senator Bruno.
3 SENATOR BRUNO: Here.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
5 SENATOR CONNOR: Here.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook.
7 SENATOR COOK: Here.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator
9 DeFrancisco.
10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Here.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
12 SENATOR DiCARLO: Here.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Dollinger.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Here.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
17 (There was no response.)
18 Senator Farley.
19 SENATOR FARLEY: Here.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber.
21 (There was no response.)
22 Senator Gold.
23 (There was no response.)
8657
1 Senator Gonzalez.
2 (There was no response.)
3 Senator Goodman.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Hannon.
6 SENATOR HANNON: Here.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock.
8 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Here.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann.
10 (There was no response.)
11 Senator Holland.
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Here.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Here.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones.
16 SENATOR JONES: Here.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Kuhl.
20 SENATOR KUHL: Present.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Larkin.
8658
1 SENATOR LARKIN: Here.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Leibell.
5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Here.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Levy.
9 (There was no response.)
10 Senator Libous.
11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye -- here.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
13 SENATOR MALTESE: Present.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator
15 Marcellino.
16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Here.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
18 SENATOR MARCHI: Here.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator
20 Montgomery.
21 (There was no response.)
22 Senator Maziarz.
23 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Here.
8659
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
2 (There was no response.)
3 Senator Montgomery.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Nanula.
6 SENATOR NANULA: Here.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio.
8 (There was no response.)
9 Senator Onorato.
10 SENATOR ONORATO: Here.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator
12 Oppenheimer.
13 (There was no response.)
14 Senator Padavan.
15 (There was no response.)
16 Senator Paterson.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Here.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
19 SENATOR PRESENT: Here.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
21 (Affirmative indication.)
22 Senator Saland.
23 (There was no response.)
8660
1 Senator Santiago.
2 (There was no response.)
3 Senator Sears.
4 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Skelos.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Here.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
10 SENATOR SMITH: Present.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon.
12 (There was no response.)
13 Senator Spano.
14 (There was no response.)
15 Senator Stachowski.
16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Here.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford.
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Present.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky.
20 (There was no response.)
21 Senator Trunzo.
22 SENATOR TRUNZO: Here.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
8661
1 (There was no response.)
2 Senator Velella.
3 SENATOR VELELLA: Present.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
5 SENATOR VOLKER: Present.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Wright.
9 SENATOR WRIGHT: Present.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Bruno, a quorum is present.
12 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
13 would you at this time proceed with the reading
14 of the Journal.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the Journal.
17 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
18 Sunday, June 11. The Senate met pursuant to
19 adjournment, Senator Farley in the Chair upon
20 designation of the Temporary President. The
21 Journal of Saturday, June 10th, was read and
22 approved. On motion, the Senate adjourned.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing
8662
1 no objection, the Journal stands approved as
2 read.
3 Presentation of petitions.
4 Messages from the Assembly.
5 Messages from the Governor.
6 Reports of standing committees.
7 Reports of select committees.
8 Communications and reports from
9 state officers.
10 Motions and resolutions.
11 The Chair recognizes Senator
12 Farley.
13 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
14 President.
15 On behalf of Senator Levy, please
16 remove the star -- let me start it again. On
17 page 43, I offer the following amendments to
18 Calendar Number 414, Senate Print 4050 and
19 please remove the star from that bill also.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The star
21 on Calendar Number 414 will be removed at the
22 request of the sponsor. The amendments are
23 received and adopted.
8663
1 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
2 Senator Spano, Mr. President, on page 26, I
3 offer the following amendments to Calendar
4 Number 861, Senate Print 3975-B, and I ask that
5 that bill retain its place on the Third Reading
6 Calendar.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 amendments to Calendar Number 861 are received
9 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on
10 the Third Reading Calendar.
11 Senator Farley.
12 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
13 Senator Volker, I wish to call up his Bill
14 Number 1140 which has passed both houses and not
15 delivered to the Governor.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Secretary will read the title.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 313, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 1140, an
20 act to amend Chapter 198 of the Laws of 1978,
21 relating to authorized projects.
22 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I
23 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
8664
1 bill was passed, and I ask the bill be restored
2 to the order of third reading.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will call the roll on consideration.
5 (The Secretary called the roll on
6 reconsideration.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 35.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Farley.
10 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to
11 recommit Senate Print Number 1140, Calendar 313
12 on the order of third reading, that it be
13 recommitted to the Health Committee with
14 instructions to strike out the enacting clause.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Senate bill will be recommitted and the enacting
17 clause will be stricken.
18 Senator Farley.
19 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
20 President.
21 On behalf of a number of Senators
22 here, Senator Velella -- I'm going to offer
23 amendments to withdraw all of these bills.
8665
1 By Senator Velella, on page 17,
2 Calendar 222, Senate Print 2764-B;
3 Senator Farley, on page 11, 416,
4 Senate Print 15-A;
5 Senator Levy, page 12, Calendar
6 462, Senate Print 4168;
7 Senator Lack, page 13, Calendar
8 507, Senate Print 3775;
9 Also, Senator Lack on page 22,
10 Calendar 771, Senate Print 4427;
11 Senator Goodman, on page 25,
12 Calendar 858, Senate Print 3466-A;
13 Also on behalf of Senator Goodman
14 on page 27, Calendar 885, Senate Print 3455;
15 Senator Cook, page 37, Calendar
16 1173, Senate Print 5164;
17 On behalf of Senator Goodman, on
18 page 39, Calendar 1221, Senate Print 4688-B;
19 Senator Larkin, on page 41,
20 Calendar 215, Senate Print 2090-B.
21 Mr. President, I offer the
22 amendments to those bills and I ask that they
23 retain their place on the Third Reading
8666
1 Calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 amendment to Calendar Number -- the amendments
4 to Calendar Number 222, 416, 462, 507, 771, 858,
5 885, 1173, 1221 and 215 are received and adopted
6 and the bills will retain their place on the
7 Third Reading Calendar.
8 Senator Larkin, why do you rise?
9 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President,
10 would you remove a sponsor's star from Calendar
11 557, Senate Bill 3069; we've already done 215.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sponsor's
13 star on Calendar Number 557 will be removed at
14 the request of the sponsor.
15 The Chair recognizes Senator
16 Onorato.
17 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President,
18 on behalf of Senator Solomon who just called me
19 -- he's still stuck on the ramp of the Empire
20 Plaza trying to get in here -- and he asked that
21 on page 44, he offers the following amendments
22 to Calendar Number 705, Print Number 4223, and
23 remove the star and ask that bill replace -
8667
1 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The star
3 on Calendar Number 705 will be removed at the
4 request of the sponsor. The amendments are
5 received and adopted and the bill will retain
6 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
7 Senator Onorato.
8 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President,
9 I also wish to call up my bill, Print Number
10 2854, recalled from the Assembly which is now at
11 the desk.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Secretary will read the title.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 1189, by Senator Solomon, Senate Print 2854, an
16 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules,
17 in relation to fees for referees.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Onorato.
20 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President,
21 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this
22 bill was passed.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8668
1 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
2 (The Secretary called the roll on
3 reconsideration.)
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Onorato.
7 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr. President,
8 I now offer the following amendments.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 amendments are received and adopted.
11 Senator Libous.
12 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, Mr.
13 President.
14 Mr. President, on behalf of
15 Senator Skelos, on page 21, I offer the
16 following amendments to Calendar Number 751,
17 Senate Print Number 1243-A, and ask that said
18 bill retain its place on the Third Reading
19 Calendar.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 amendments to Calendar Number 751 are received
22 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on
23 the Third Reading Calendar.
8669
1 Senator Libous.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
3 President.
4 On behalf of Senator Rath, I wish
5 to call up her bill, Print Number 901, recalled
6 from the Assembly which is now at the desk.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the title.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 160, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 901, an act
11 to amend the State Administrative Procedure Act,
12 in relation to advance notice of ruling making.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Libous.
15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
16 President.
17 I now move to reconsider the vote
18 by which this bill was passed.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
21 (The Secretary called the roll on
22 reconsideration.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 35.
8670
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is before the house.
3 Senator Libous.
4 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
5 President.
6 I now offer up the following
7 amendments.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 amendments are received and adopted.
10 Senator Libous.
11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
12 on behalf of Senator Lack, I wish to call up his
13 bill, Senate Print Number 2833-A, recalled from
14 the Assembly which is now at the desk.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the title.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 387, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 2833-A, an
19 act to amend Chapter 689 of the Laws of 1993,
20 amending the Criminal Procedure Law.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Libous.
23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
8671
1 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
2 bill was passed.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
5 (The Secretary called the roll on
6 reconsideration.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 35.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Libous.
10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
11 now offer up the following amendments.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 amendments are received and adopted.
14 Senator Libous.
15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
16 President.
17 On behalf of my colleague,
18 Senator Sears, I wish to call up his bill,
19 Senate Print Number 3331, recalled from the
20 Assembly which is now at the desk.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Secretary will read the title.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8672
1 1027, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 3331, an
2 act in relation to authorizing the town of Lee,
3 county of Oneida, to lease certain park lands.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Libous.
6 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
7 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
8 bill was passed.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
11 (The Secretary called the roll on
12 reconsideration.)
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
15 is before the house.
16 Senator Libous.
17 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
18 offer up the following amendments.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 amendments are received and adopted.
21 Senator Libous.
22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
23 on behalf of Senator Cook, please place a
8673
1 sponsor's star on Calendar Number 514 and also
2 Calendar Number 809.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The stars
4 are placed on Calendar Number 514 and 809 at the
5 request of the sponsor.
6 Senator Dollinger.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
8 President, pursuant to Rule XI, I'm providing
9 notice of my intention to move to alter the
10 rules on June 13th, 1995, specifically Rule XI,
11 to change the deadline from the second Tuesday
12 in April to the fourth Tuesday in June for
13 discharging a committee from consideration of a
14 bill and require only one calendar legislative
15 day's notice and upon adoption of said motion
16 will move to discharge the Rules Committee from
17 consideration of 5252 which would ban the
18 possession of assault weapons.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'll
20 direct the Secretary to record the notice in the
21 Journal.
22 Senator Bruno, we have one
23 substitution at the desk, if you would like to
8674
1 take that at this time.
2 SENATOR BRUNO: Make the
3 substitution, Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will read the substitution.
6 THE SECRETARY: On page 38,
7 Senator Waldon moves to discharge from the
8 Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 2837
9 and substitute it for the identical Calendar
10 Number 1215.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 substitution is ordered.
13 Senator Skelos, that brings us to
14 the calendar. What's your pleasure?
15 SENATOR SKELOS: I would like to
16 hand up the following resolution. I'd ask that
17 the title be read and the resolution adopted.
18 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno,
19 concurrent resolution of the Senate and
20 Assembly, authorizing the Senate and Assembly of
21 New York State to purchase copies of the New
22 York Red Book for 1995-96.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8675
1 question is on the resolution. All those in
2 favor signify by saying aye.
3 (Response of "Aye".)
4 Opposed, nay.
5 (There was no response.)
6 The resolution is adopted.
7 Senator Skelos.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
9 if we could take up the non-controversial
10 calendar.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the non-controversial
13 calendar.
14 THE SECRETARY: On page 4,
15 Calendar Number 91, by Senator Holland, Senate
16 Print 2046-B -
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
19 bill aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 94, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 571-A, an
22 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to
23 procedures for written communications.
8676
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Secretary will read the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
4 act shall take effect on the first day of the
5 calendar.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 98, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 1367-B, an
14 act to amend the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law,
15 in relation to autographed sports collectibles.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Secretary will read the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect on the first day of
20 January.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8677
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
3 is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 186, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 2037, an
6 act to amend the -
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
9 bill aside.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 341, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print -
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
14 bill aside.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 373, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 2902-A, an
17 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to
18 authorizing electronic funds transfer.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
22 act shall take effect on the first day of July.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8678
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
5 is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 374, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 3058-A, an
8 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to
9 the funding of certain libraries.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary will read the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
19 is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 397, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 3632-A, an
22 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
23 relation to authorizing the Dormitory Authority
8679
1 to construct and finance all necessary and
2 related facilities.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
12 is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 411, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4036-A, an
15 act to amend Chapter 56 of the Laws of 1993,
16 amending the Highway Law.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Secretary will read the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8680
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
3 is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 422, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 3913, an act
6 to amend the Education Law, in relation to the
7 transportation of pupils.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Secretary will read the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect on the second day of July.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
13 roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 441, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3623-A, an
20 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
21 permitting an employer or employer-sponsored
22 irrevocable trust.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8681
1 Secretary will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
9 is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 449, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 4014-A, an
12 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
13 the elderly pharmaceutical insurance coverage
14 program.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the last section to Calendar
17 Number 449.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
8682
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 490, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 2960-A, an
5 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
6 relation to creating the Livingston County Water
7 and Sewer Authority.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Secretary will read the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
13 roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 502, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 3325-A, an
20 act to amend the General Business Law, in
21 relation to prohibiting presentment of a Social
22 Security number.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8683
1 Secretary will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect on the first day of
4 November.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
10 is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 50... in relation to Calendar Number 502, ayes
13 37, nays 1, Senator Hannon recorded in the
14 negative.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 503, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 3467-A, an
19 act to amend the General Business Law, in
20 relation to unauthorized or improper use of a
21 debit card.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Secretary will read the last section.
8684
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
2 act shall take effect on the first day of
3 January.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
9 is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 564, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4182-A, an
12 act to amend the Nassau County Civil Divisions
13 Act, in relation to the volunteer and exempt
14 Firemen's Benevolent Association.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the last section to Calendar
17 Number 564.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
8685
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We
2 mistakenly read Calendar Number 564 out of
3 order. We'll take up Calendar Number 558 next
4 for the benefit of the members -- excuse me,
5 558. 564 passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 558, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 3202-A,
8 an act to amend the Town Law, in relation to
9 providing for the election of a third town
10 justice.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
16 roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
20 is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 583, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4146, an act
23 to amend the Transportation Law, in relation to
8686
1 requiring the Commissioner of Transportation to
2 take an annual inventory.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
11 the results when tabulated.
12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
13 the negative on Calendar 583 are Senators
14 DeFrancisco, Farley, Present and Rath. Also,
15 Senator Hoblock. Ayes 33, nays 5.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 642, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4336, an act
20 to amend the Transportation Law, in relation to
21 nighttime construction projects.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Secretary will read the last section.
8687
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
4 roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll.)
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
8 is passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 657, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3109-A, an
11 act to authorize the conveyance of certain state
12 lands to Pinehaven Country Club, Incorporated.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 Secretary will read the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
16 act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
18 roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll.)
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
22 is passed.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8688
1 703, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4112-B, an
2 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
3 investments.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
12 the results when tabulated.
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36, nays 2,
14 Senators Maltese and Maziarz recorded in the
15 negative.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 727, by Member of the Assembly Gottfried,
20 Assembly Print 6516, an act to amend the Public
21 Health Law and the Insurance Law, in relation to
22 physical therapy services referrals.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8689
1 Secretary will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
9 is passed -- announce the results when tabulated
10 on Calendar Number 727.
11 THE SECRETARY: On Calendar 727,
12 ayes 37, nays 1, Senator DeFrancisco recorded in
13 the negative.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
15 is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 733, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 4017-B, an
18 act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law, in relation
19 to establishing performance standards for
20 alcoholism, substance abuse and chemical
21 dependence programs.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Secretary will read the last section.
8690
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
4 roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll.)
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
8 is passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 740, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 3424-B, an
11 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city
12 of New York, in relation to a credit against the
13 unincorporated business income tax.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Secretary will read the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 17. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll.)
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
23 is passed.
8691
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 869, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4856-B, an
3 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
4 relation to increasing fines for violations of
5 certain provisions.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Secretary will read the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
9 act shall take effect on the 90th day.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
15 is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 875, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4985-A, an
18 act to amend the Transportation Law, in relation
19 to the investigation of accidents by the state
20 Public Transportation Safety Board.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Secretary will read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8692
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
3 roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll.)
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
7 is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 989, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 3786-A, an
10 act to amend Chapter 514 of the Laws of 1983,
11 amending the Private Housing Finance Law.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Secretary will read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
17 roll.
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
20 is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 990, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print -
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
8693
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
2 bill aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 994, by Senator Leibell -
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
7 bill aside.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 1041, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3119-A, an
10 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law,
11 in relation to the definition of angling.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Secretary will read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect on the 120th day.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll.)
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
21 is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 1058, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 2779, an
8694
1 act to amend the -
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
4 home rule message at the desk. The bill will be
5 laid aside.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 1107, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4673-A, an
8 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law,
9 in relation to exempting certain bakeries from
10 regulation pursuant to the Clear Air Act.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
13 bill aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 1197, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 3663-B,
16 an act to amend -
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
19 bill aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1199, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 3853-A,
22 an act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
23 relation to the powers of the New York -- state
8695
1 of New York Mortgage Agency.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Secretary will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 1213, by Senator Montgomery, Senate Print 595,
14 an act authorizing the city of New York to
15 reconvey its interest in certain real property
16 acquired by in rem tax foreclosure in the
17 borough of Brooklyn.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
19 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
20 will read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8696
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
5 is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 1215, by Member of the Assembly Scarborough,
8 substituted earlier today, Assembly Print 2837,
9 an act authorizing the city of New York to
10 reconvey its interest in certain real property
11 acquired by in rem tax foreclosure in the
12 borough of Queens.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 Secretary will read the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
16 act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
18 roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll.)
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
22 is passed.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8697
1 1216, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 2992, an
2 act to amend the Banking Law, in relation to
3 permissible fees in connection with open ended
4 loans.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Secretary will read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1217, by Senator Paterson, Senate Print 3127, an
17 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
18 defining offenses against a family.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect on the first day of
23 November.
8698
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Skelos.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: We're on
5 Calendar Number 1217 by Senator Gold?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That's
7 what we're just inquiring about, Senator
8 Skelos. The Secretary will read Calendar Number
9 1217, the title.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1217, by Senator Gold, Senate Print 3217, an act
12 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to a metal
13 knuckle knife.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Secretary will read the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll.)
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
23 is passed.
8699
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 1218, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 3718-A,
3 an act to amend the Administrative Code of the
4 city of New York, in relation to the title and
5 compensation of certain police.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Secretary will read the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
15 is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1219, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3891, an
18 act to amend the Labor law, in relation to
19 providing for eligibility of unemployment
20 insurance benefits.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Secretary will read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8700
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
3 roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll.)
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
7 is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 1220, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 4649, an
10 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law,
11 in relation to authorizing liquor stores to
12 operate on Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 Secretary will read the last section.
15 SENATOR SMITH: Lay it aside.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
17 bill aside.
18 Senator Skelos, that completes
19 the non-controversial calendar.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
22 recognizes Senator DeFrancisco.
23 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Mr.
8701
1 President, when 727 on the calendar was called,
2 I mistakenly voted in the negative. I would
3 request unanimous consent to be voted in the
4 affirmative.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
6 objection. Hearing no objection, Senator
7 DeFrancisco will be recorded in the affirmative
8 on Calendar Number 727.
9 Senator Skel... excuse me.
10 Senator Sears, why do you rise?
11 SENATOR SEARS: 503, I would like
12 to be recorded in the negative, please.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
14 objection. Hearing no objection, Senator Sears
15 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar
16 Number 503.
17 Senator Skelos.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
19 as we start the controversial calendar -- and I
20 know there will be at least one supplemental
21 calendar, I urge the members who have bills on
22 the calendar to be debated to please be in the
23 chambers so that we can move in an orderly
8702
1 fashion.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Secretary will read the controversial -- excuse
4 me.
5 Senator Paterson, why do you
6 rise?
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
8 I just rose to tell you that I agree with the
9 Acting Majority Leader. The quicker we get in
10 here, the quicker we can debate these bills.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the controversial calendar.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 91, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 2046-B, an
15 act to amend the Social Services Law and the
16 Workers' Compensation Law, in relation to liens
17 for public assistance.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Holland, an explanation has been asked for by
21 both Senator Paterson and Senator Stachowski.
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President,
23 this bill provides that the Department of Social
8703
1 Services may place a lien for the repayment of
2 public assistance upon any lump sum benefit paid
3 under the Workers' Compensation Law.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: I apologize.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Paterson, would you hesitate just a moment until
10 we get some order in the chamber. It's Monday
11 morning, a lot of noise. Ask the staff to take
12 their places, the members to take their
13 conversations out of the chamber.
14 Thank you, Senator Paterson.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
16 and thank you.
17 I couldn't hear Senator Holland's
18 explanation. Would he mind repeating it?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: I would be glad
20 to.
21 This bill provides that the
22 Department of Social Services may place a lien
23 for the payment of public assistance upon any
8704
1 lump sum benefit paid under the Workers'
2 Compensation Law.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Paterson.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Why was the -
7 if Senator Holland would yield for a question.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Holland, do you yield to Senator Paterson? The
10 Senators yields.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Why was
12 Workers' Compensation excluded in the first
13 place, Senator Holland?
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: We did a little
15 research on that, Senator. We were not able to
16 find a reason why it was not excluded in 1964,
17 but it doesn't make any sense to me that some
18 people have to repay loans and in this
19 situation, they would be receiving benefits from
20 two benefit agencies of the state of New York
21 and when they receive their grant or their court
22 settlement, they wouldn't have to repay the loan
23 from DSS.
8705
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Paterson.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President
4 -- Senator Holland, even as a prerequisite to
5 the questions I want to ask, if what you're
6 saying is true, why have we in this bill
7 excluded EMS workers and firefighters?
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Good question.
9 It -- I really don't have an answer for that,
10 Senator. Do you want to put them in?
11 SENATOR PATERSON: No, Mr.
12 President. I want Senator Holland to know that
13 I would figure that we would take them out. In
14 other words, I would figure that workers would
15 be treated the same.
16 SENATOR HOLLAND: That -- that
17 makes a lot of sense to me, Senator. I would be
18 glad to talk to you about that next year or
19 later this week, if you would like.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Paterson.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
23 would Senator Holland tell me, are we going
8706
1 to -
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Holland, do you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Senator continues to yield.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Do you want to
8 pass the bill as it is right now and change it
9 later; is that what you're saying?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I
11 certainly want to pass the bill as it is right
12 now. This bill has been on the floor for a
13 number of years. I really think it is an unfair
14 situation. Maybe it's not a perfect bill, but
15 we pass a lot of bills that are not perfect and
16 this will correct some inequities that have been
17 going on for much too long in this state.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Paterson.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
21 just on the bill, just for that moment.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Paterson on the bill.
8707
1 SENATOR PATERSON: I understand
2 what Senator Holland is saying, but I really
3 think it would be better for the process if we
4 addressed all the issues in this particular
5 legislation at once.
6 Now, I'm opposed to this bill,
7 Mr. President, and I'm going to go into why in a
8 moment, but I really would implore Senator
9 Holland that as we're already conceding that
10 there are some inconsistencies or some
11 idiosyncratic situations that would be treated
12 as -- arising from the passage of this bill -- I
13 understand that he's waited a long time, but I
14 really think it would be better government for
15 us not to concede that we often pass bills that
16 are not perfect. I think that is the result of
17 our work but it is not the intent. We would
18 hope that we're always passing bills that are
19 the best possible bill we can have, and I just
20 urge the sponsor to lay the bill aside and
21 either give us an explanation for why we should
22 have the EMS and firefighters or to just remove
23 them and go forward with the bill.
8708
1 But now back to the actual piece
2 of legislation, if Senator Holland would mind
3 yielding for a couple of questions.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Holland, do you yield to Senator Paterson? The
6 Senator yields.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, for a
8 long period of time, Section 33 of the Workers'
9 Compensation Law and Section 104(b) of the
10 Social Services Law seem to have allowed for
11 this exclusion, and I think the reason they do
12 it is because of the rates at which an
13 individual who is injured can be paid. The
14 Workers' Compensation Law really restricts the
15 payment that an individual can receive. We're
16 not talking about individuals who applied for
17 some sort of social service benefit, Senator.
18 We're talking about people who were working who
19 either were injured accidentally on the job or
20 contracted some job-related disease, and so I
21 think that these individuals have already gone
22 through an ordeal and Section 15 of the Workers'
23 Compensation Law makes it very clear that they
8709
1 never received the compensation that they would
2 have accrued had they been working, so they're
3 already at a financial disadvantage.
4 Now, we have one exception. We
5 will go into Workers' Compensation payments
6 where there is a mitigating circumstance where
7 we are balancing the hardship of the worker with
8 the difficulties that other family members have,
9 Senator Holland, so we do have that exception so
10 we don't have other family members living in
11 poverty as a result of the job-related injury,
12 but to the individual who is suffering, the
13 Workers' Compensation Law makes it very clear
14 that they're never in the position, even with
15 Workers' Compensation, that they were in at the
16 time of the accident or the ordeal has occurred,
17 and so why we would want to take the meager
18 funds that are available to them and pay back
19 Social Services is something that, I think the
20 Legislature addressed many years ago, and that
21 is to not want to further restrict the
22 individual who is already restricted by Workers'
23 Compensation payments.
8710
1 My question to you is why would
2 you want to change that? That seems -- I mean,
3 it seems to me that we're picking on people who
4 really, but for the fact that they were working
5 -- in other words, they weren't lazy. They
6 didn't fail to go out and look for a job. They
7 are individuals who are injured, individuals who
8 are often suffering from a malady. Why would we
9 want to take any further money out of their
10 pockets?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: See, I don't
12 see it that way, Senator. I see it as the
13 person being injured or needing assistance and
14 DSS coming to their assistance for a period of
15 time until the court finishes the claim. When
16 the claim is adjudicated, then I believe the
17 loan -- and I see it as a loan from DSS -
18 should be repaid just as anybody else would have
19 to do, have to repay a loan; just as anybody
20 else who might have a problem for a period of
21 time might have to take a loan.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President
23 -- but, Senator, you're aware that when people
8711
1 go on to -
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Holland, do you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Senator continues to yield.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
8 thanks.
9 Senator Holland, when the person
10 goes on Social Security, often they are paid
11 Social Security Disability Insurance which, in a
12 sense, tides the individual over until the
13 Social Security Insurance is now -- now kicks
14 in, but the Social Security Insurance often is
15 retroactive to the point that they receive
16 Social Security Disability Insurance and,
17 although you might see that as a loan, generally
18 what the Social Security Law feels is that that
19 initial effort to assist the person is something
20 that even with the -- the special benefit of
21 SSDI, the federal law generally considers that
22 the individual never really reaches a point of
23 equity.
8712
1 And so what I'm sort of saying to
2 you, Senator, is based on logic, I think that
3 you're correct in your assumption, but I think
4 the point, if I could get you to realize it,
5 that might make you reconsider this bill is the
6 fact that you see, even with the slight funds
7 that may be paid from Social Services, even when
8 the Workers' Compensation kicks in, it's
9 understood in the law -- it's actually written
10 right into Section 15 -- that the person is
11 never in the place that they would have been if
12 they continued to be working.
13 Now, if the individual was, in a
14 sense, receiving a benefit from our government
15 just on -- based on need alone, then I think I
16 would be more persuaded to vote for your bill,
17 but these individuals, I must repeat, were
18 injured on the job or suffered a job-related
19 circumstance that caused them to contract some
20 sort of disease.
21 So, in other words, if we're
22 really talking about equity, Senator, they have
23 really had bad luck. I mean, that's about the
8713
1 only way to describe it, and to further
2 complicate this situation by, in a sense, taking
3 back the funds that they receive from Social
4 Services, in my opinion, just is not fair to
5 them, and I don't know -- or maybe you would
6 like to tell me if you would yield for this
7 question, how much money would you project we
8 could save the state in a year; is it really
9 worth it?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do not have a
11 specific amount, Senator, but I guess -- I have
12 to repeat myself in answer to your question. I
13 see it as double dipping. I see it as we are
14 taking care of the people who are injured on the
15 job or get a disease on the job or have a
16 problem on the job, and if they get a claim
17 which would pay back that loan while we were
18 taking care of them, whether it's through
19 compensation or DSS, I believe that should be
20 repaid. I think a normal taxpayer who didn't
21 have that benefit would have to repay any loan,
22 would have to work over that period of time. I
23 see this as receiving benefits from two
8714
1 government benefit agencies and that when the
2 claim is finalized, one of them should be
3 repaid.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Paterson.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Yeah, Senator
7 Holland, I don't -- Mr. President, I don't think
8 that there is really much disagreement between
9 either of us on what we're actually doing but,
10 Senator Holland, what I would wish we would
11 acknowledge is the fact that these individuals
12 are taxpayers. They were taxpayers at the time
13 that they accumulated the injury. What they may
14 be is individuals who, in a sense, due to the
15 injury, are in far greater straits than the
16 individual who might have the personal finances
17 to sustain themself until the Workmen's
18 Compensation comes through.
19 And so all I'm saying to you,
20 Senator Holland -- and, you know, I appreciate
21 what you're trying to say, but all I'm asking
22 you to consider is when you have a tort
23 liability action and the defendant is found at
8715
1 fault, the general -- generally held saw of
2 legal compensation is that you take the victims
3 as you find them. In other words, if you knock
4 someone down the stairs and they get a bump on
5 the head and they have to go and have X-rays,
6 then you pay for X-rays. If you knock someone
7 down the stairs and they had an unusually thin
8 skull and they fracture their skull, even though
9 most people might not have had that particular
10 malady because you knocked them down the stairs,
11 you now have to pay for everything.
12 I think that as a state, if we
13 would consider this more as a tort action and
14 take our victims as we find them, we would find
15 that the individuals who happen to be, let's say
16 lower income, they don't have as much savings as
17 perhaps the individual who's suffering from the
18 same injury but since we as a state, by the fact
19 that we pay Workers' Compensation, deem
20 ourselves to be responsible, what I'm contending
21 is that I think that that difference, even
22 though we're paying from both agencies and even
23 though under the definition of what double
8716
1 dipping would mean, I guess I'd have to go along
2 with you, Senator Holland, but I'm saying in the
3 greatest equity, in the greatest fairness, in
4 the greatest consideration of what the victim
5 has sustained, I think it would be more fair to
6 put the victim in as best a position as we can
7 even if each victim who suffers as a result of a
8 job-related injury or disease that arose from a
9 job-related situation, that that would be a
10 better goal for government than to have a
11 uniform standard where we are really, in a
12 sense, shuffling the deck and rearranging funds
13 that we have not demonstrated are going to be of
14 any great savings to the state and at the same
15 time, would have great value if they could be in
16 the hands of the injured party.
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Is that a
18 question?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
20 Senator -
21 SENATOR PATERSON: No, that was
22 not a question. It was just -- on the bill, it
23 is my point of view, but if you do have a
8717
1 feeling about it, I would be delighted to hear
2 it.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Holland, would you like to respond?
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: No.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Stachowski was rising.
8 Senator Stachowski.
9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: If they're
10 finished, I would like to speak on the bill.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Stachowski on the bill.
13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: On the bill.
14 I think that this bill is -
15 although the sponsor means well in recouping
16 money, he in essence is telling people that work
17 in the state of New York that, if you have the
18 misfortune of being hurt on the job and qualify
19 for at least the procedure that will possibly
20 enable you to get Workmen's Compensation
21 benefits, then even though you paid taxes all
22 your working life while you worked and even
23 though you're a member of our society and a
8718
1 regular taxpayer, as the term was used in the
2 earlier part of this debate, that you shouldn't
3 get public assistance if by no fault of your own
4 because of this injury or illness you're forced
5 on the public rolls -- which isn't always the
6 most pleasant thing for a man or a woman who
7 happens to be the bread earner of their family,
8 worked all their life, has a great work ethic
9 and now they're forced to take public assistance
10 which in many people's cases is like the last
11 resort; they don't even want to do it. They
12 only do it when they're forced to do it and now
13 even though you've paid into that system by
14 paying taxes all your life, you're told that, if
15 you use that system because through delays in
16 the Workmen's Comp' system, you're not getting
17 your benefits or you're not getting a speedy
18 enough trial to get you benefits, then you're
19 not entitled to get this and actually this is
20 only a loan by the state of New York and you
21 should pay this back even though all your life
22 you worked, you paid taxes, you're a pillar of
23 the community, but that's too bad. You had the
8719
1 misfortune of getting sick or you had the
2 misfortune of getting hurt and even though
3 you'll probably never be the same because if you
4 were going to be the same you wouldn't be
5 getting the benefits or winning the court
6 action, that that's the way it is.
7 This new state of New York
8 government, the all friendly, open door state
9 that we now have, is going to tell you that you
10 have to pay back this public assistance that,
11 although there's people that are on it and
12 although we can afford to give companies massive
13 loans because they put together sheets that say
14 "We're going to create 'X' amount of jobs and
15 we want like $20 million or we're going to leave
16 the state", and we give them that loan and they
17 never create the jobs and oftentimes they leave
18 the state and they never have to pay back any
19 thing, but that's all right, because that's for
20 business and we are a business-friendly state,
21 but you, the worker, you've worked hard. You
22 got hurt. You're going to get a compensation
23 benefit. You win your case. You're fortunate
8720
1 enough that you're hurt bad enough that you win
2 a case in court and you get a settlement so you
3 should pay back that public assistance that you
4 so richly deserved, but that's too bad. You
5 should pay it back because you had no right
6 getting that benefit from the state of New
7 York.
8 I just think the logic of the
9 bill is nuts. I think that, if people work and
10 they find themselves in that predicament, that's
11 a terrible situation. They don't like to use
12 public assistance and I think that the average
13 working person, it's the last thing they have in
14 their mind. There's often people that do
15 everything possible before they would even take
16 this, and I just think the coldness of this bill
17 is just unbelievable to me and unless somebody's
18 missing the explanation, the explanation I heard
19 was -- it doesn't justify this bill.
20 This is just a cold effort to
21 have the working men and women of this state try
22 to fill in the budget deficits that we're going
23 to face in the future for whatever reason, and I
8721
1 just -- I don't understand the logic. Maybe I'm
2 missing something. Maybe I didn't read the bill
3 correctly. Maybe the memos that were sent to us
4 are wrong and maybe I just didn't hear the
5 debate properly, but I think this is a terrible
6 bill. This is a slap in the face to the working
7 men and women of our state. This is a terrible
8 message to tell people that have the misfortune
9 of being hurt at work. I just believe it and I
10 suggest that most people would vote no against
11 this bill.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Secretary will read the last section.
14 Senator Dollinger -- Senator
15 Holland, do you want to respond?
16 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do a little
17 bit, yes.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Holland first, Senator Dollinger next.
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Both Senators
21 said basically the same thing, that we don't
22 care about people who pay taxes, and we're not
23 helping people who pay taxes. We absolutely
8722
1 are.
2 That's what DSS is there for. We
3 don't mind helping those people. We encourage
4 them to come when they need assistance, but they
5 are at the end after the court case double
6 dipping and they are hurting the workers of this
7 state who are paying the taxes, who are trying
8 to help people.
9 This is a double-dipping
10 situation, Senator. I don't understand why you
11 cannot see it. We are helping the people that
12 need to be helped. After the court case is
13 settled, we're asking them to pay back the
14 loan. That's as simple as it is.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Dollinger.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
18 President, would the sponsor yield to a couple
19 of questions?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Holland, do you yield to Senator Dollinger? The
22 Senator yields.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, does
8723
1 this bill apply to the medical benefit portion
2 in addition to the wage portion of the Workers'
3 Comp' award?
4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does that
6 mean -- through you, Mr. President, if the
7 sponsor would continue to yield.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Holland, do you continue to yield?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Senator continues to yield.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does that
14 mean that if you receive a wage supplement from
15 the Department of Social Services and you are
16 awarded eventually a compensation award for lost
17 wages and for the medical costs, that you can
18 assert the lien for wages paid through -- or
19 through dis... benefits through DSS, you can
20 assert that against both the lost wage component
21 and the medical component?
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: DSS can only
23 collect what Workers' Comp' was meant to cover
8724
1 for the same services.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is that
3 provided for in this bill? The reason why I
4 ask, Senator, is my concern is this: If the
5 lump sum payment under Workers' Comp' comes in
6 two forms, it comes in a lost wage component for
7 the time that you lost work depending on the
8 extent of your disability and wage rate and then
9 there's also a payment for medical expenses.
10 My question is does the Social
11 Services lien that you want to attach here,
12 which is largely in the form of income mainten
13 ance, does that lien attach to both the lost
14 wage portion and the medical portion; because if
15 that's the case, then the Social Service
16 Department is liening -- is giving a wage
17 supplement but yet liening something necessary
18 to pay for medical bills, putting the lien
19 against the medical portion as well. That's my
20 question.
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: If I can read
22 the section of the bill here. "Services" -
23 let's start at 3.
8725
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, if
2 you could just -- through you, Mr. President.
3 Could you just tell me which lines you're
4 reading so I can read it with you?
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm reading
6 page 2, section -- lines 3 and 4.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay.
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Is -- " *** by
9 a Social Services official with the board for
10 reimbursement out of the proceeds of the award
11 for that portion of the covered period for which
12 the public assistance and care was paid."
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's my
14 concern, Senator, is whether the term "award"
15 includes both the lost wage component of the
16 award and the medical cost, because if you're
17 liening the medical portion as well as the lost
18 wage portion of that, you're actually telling
19 the working person who's hurt that the money
20 that they would get to pay for their medical
21 expenses is going to be liened to cover the cost
22 of their income maintenance that they've
23 received from the Department of Social
8726
1 Services. Is that the intent?
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: The intent is
3 just to cover the medical portion.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just to cover
5 the wage portion, correct?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm sorry, the
7 wage portion.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As I
9 understand the bill, what you're saying is
10 you're getting -- Workers' Comp' is in essence
11 paying for a lost wage component and the
12 Department of Social Services is also paying you
13 a wage supplement, that those are, in essence, a
14 form of double dipping. That's why my question
15 about the bill is it wouldn't be double dipping
16 if what you're -- the second portion of the
17 award is the medical portion and yet the income
18 maintenance from Social Services is liening the
19 medical payments under the comp' award. That's
20 why -- my question is, it appears as though it's
21 broader than you intended if it applies to just
22 the, quote, "award" because the award would
23 include both medical expense and income and yet
8727
1 what you want to do is put a lien for the Social
2 Services which I agree with and voted for this
3 bill in the past and will vote for it again if
4 that's the intent.
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: The medical
6 portion is paid to the vendor, so it's just the
7 wages.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: There will be
9 no reimbursement paid to the individual for
10 medical expenses if they paid for them out of
11 their pocket?
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: The Workers'
13 Compensation award would pay for that.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But there
15 could be -- if the worker -- the claim is
16 controverted which is what you addressed,
17 because it's only in the case where there's a
18 controverted claim that you will have the time
19 delay that the person will have to go seek
20 public service -- Social Services for, so it's a
21 controverted claim.
22 In those instances there may be
23 cases where, because of the nature of the
8728
1 controversy, the Comp' Board hasn't authorized
2 payment of the medical expense because the claim
3 is controverted and the individual may have to
4 pay for those expenses out of their pocket while
5 waiting for the board to resolve whether or not
6 it's a covered injury. So you end up with no
7 income and no payment of the medical expenses.
8 In those instances, the individual may have to
9 pay for the medical expenses out of their own
10 pocket if they don't have private insurance.
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know
12 how to get this across. The intent of the bill
13 is to pay back whatever they can with -- through
14 the compensation claim.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: All right.
16 Mr. President, through you. I just -
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Holland, do you continue to yield?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Senator continues to yield.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I voted for
23 this bill in the past. I'll vote for it again
8729
1 if this bill does that. That's my -- my
2 question -
3 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's the
4 intent.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right.
6 That's the clear intent, but by defining "award"
7 as including the medical portion and the lost
8 wage portion, you may be inadvertently attaching
9 payments to cover lost income for which they are
10 actually paid to reimburse them for medical
11 expenses and to that extent, the bill may go
12 beyond what you intended to do and that's why I
13 voted for this bill in the past. I agree with
14 you that to repay that portion seems to me to be
15 fair.
16 I appreciate Senator Stachowski's
17 and Senator Paterson's comments, but I voted for
18 this in the past and my understanding in the
19 past was it would only affect the wage portion.
20 As I read it today, in my due diligence this
21 morning, I realize it's broader than what I
22 think both you wanted to do and what I voted for
23 in the past because it would include beyond
8730
1 simply -- the award would include both lost
2 wages and lost medical expenses and that's
3 beyond the scope of what you wanted to do.
4 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't believe
5 it is, Senator but, if it is, I will certainly
6 work with you and anyone else to correct that
7 portion of it.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Just
9 one other question, Mr. President, to clarify
10 one other term.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Holland, do you continue to yield?
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Senator continues to yield.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does this
17 apply to benefits that were received prior to
18 the injury?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, it does
20 not.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Only in the
22 covered period, that is the period of time after
23 the injury occurred, before the controverted
8731
1 claim is resolved?
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: Correct.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: All right.
4 Anything received -- it doesn't -- We're not
5 going to go back and -
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Absolutely not.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Or after -- I
8 mean after the controversy is resolved and the
9 payments are made, the lien would only apply -
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, not
11 designed before or after, no.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
13 Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Secretary will read the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Paterson.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: We would like
21 a slow roll call on this bill.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All
23 right. Read the last section.
8732
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
4 were five Senators who stood asking for a slow
5 roll call, so the Secretary will call the slow
6 roll call. The bells are ringing.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
8 SENATOR ABATE: No.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
10 (There was no response.)
11 Senator Bruno.
12 (Affirmative indication.)
13 THE SECRETARY: Aye.
14 Senator Connor.
15 (Negative indication.)
16 THE SECRETARY: Negative.
17 Senator Cook.
18 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator
20 DeFrancisco.
21 (There was no response.)
22 Senator DiCarlo.
23 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes.
8733
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Dollinger.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
4 President, to explain my vote.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Dollinger to explain his vote.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
8 President, I'm concerned about the issue I
9 raised with Senator Holland and it raises enough
10 of a question in my mind. I agree with the
11 intent of this bill. I believe as drafted it
12 may go beyond what the Senator or the sponsor
13 intend.
14 Therefore, Mr. President, because
15 of that drafting problem, although I agree with
16 the concept, I'm going to vote in the negative
17 on this particular piece.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Dollinger will be recorded in the negative.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
21 (There was no response.)
22 Senator Farley.
23 (There was no response.)
8734
1 Senator Galiber.
2 (There was no response.)
3 Senator Gold.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Gonzalez.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Goodman.
8 (There was no response.)
9 Senator Hannon.
10 (There was no response.)
11 Senator Hoblock.
12 (There was no response.)
13 Senator Hoffmann.
14 (There was no response.)
15 Senator Holland.
16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Jones.
20 (There was no audible response.)
21 Senator Kruger.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Kuhl.
8735
1 SENATOR KUHL: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Larkin.
5 (There was no response.)
6 Senator LaValle.
7 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
9 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter.
11 (There was no response.)
12 Senator Levy.
13 (There was no response.)
14 Senator Libous.
15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
17 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator
19 Marcellino.
20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
22 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8736
1 Markowitz.
2 (There was no response.)
3 Senator Maziarz.
4 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Montgomery.
8 (There was no response.)
9 Senator Nanula.
10 SENATOR NANULA: No.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio.
12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
14 SENATOR ONORATO: No.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Oppenheimer.
17 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
19 (There was no response.)
20 Senator Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: No.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
23 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
8737
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
2 SENATOR RATH: Here -- aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
4 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Sears.
8 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
10 SENATOR SEWARD: Present and
11 voting aye.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
15 SENATOR SMITH: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Solomon.
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: No.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
19 SENATOR SPANO: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator
21 Stachowski.
22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford.
8738
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Trunzo.
5 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Velella.
9 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
11 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
13 (Negative indication.)
14 Senator Wright.
15 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Secretary will call the absentees.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
19 (There was no response.)
20 Senator DeFrancisco.
21 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
23 (There was no response.)
8739
1 Senator Farley.
2 (There was no response.)
3 Senator Galiber, excused.
4 Senator Gold.
5 (There was no response.)
6 Senator Gonzalez.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Goodman.
9 (There was no response.)
10 Senator Hannon.
11 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock.
13 (There was no response.)
14 Senator Hoffmann.
15 (There was no response.)
16 Senator Johnson.
17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
19 (There was no response.)
20 Senator Lack.
21 (There was no response.)
22 Senator Larkin.
23 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
8740
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: No.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
4 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator
6 Markowitz.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Mendez.
9 (There was no response.)
10 Senator Montgomery.
11 (There was no response.)
12 Senator Padavan.
13 (There was no response.)
14 Senator Santiago.
15 (There was no response.)
16 Senator Stavisky.
17 (There was no response.)
18 Senator Tully.
19 (There was no response.)
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
21 the results.
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31, nays
23 12. Senator Kruger.
8741
1 SENATOR KRUGER: No.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
3 the results.
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31, nays 13.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
6 is passed.
7 The Secretary will continue to
8 call the controversial calendar.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 186, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 2037, an
11 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to
12 the establishment of a Staten Island Borough
13 School District.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Marchi, an explanation of Calendar Number 186
17 has been asked for by the Acting Minority
18 Leader, Senator Paterson.
19 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President,
20 the -- the referendum which was held on Staten
21 Island in response to legislation that we had
22 passed earlier in two different sessions of the
23 Legislature provided for something like this,
8742
1 but this is not a literal implementation of
2 that, because it must attend other developments.
3 However, it does implement the
4 sense of the vote that was taken in Staten
5 Island at that time, and that was to establish a
6 separate independent board on Staten Island
7 which would assume control on January 1, 1996 to
8 operate the schools of the district for the
9 school years beginning with the years '96 -
10 1996-97 and also providing for the election of
11 members of the Staten Island Borough Board of
12 Education which would be held in November 1997
13 general election and the members would take
14 office in January 1998.
15 I have to point out that the
16 number of students that -- this is rather a -
17 sufficient numbers in that district. In the
18 district itself there are over 40,000 students
19 which makes it perhaps the largest school
20 district in the city of New York.
21 It does provide the election -
22 elective process for the members of the board
23 provides for voting islandwide and every voter
8743
1 would have three -- three ballots to cast.
2 In the legislation that had been
3 approved for an independent Staten Island, I was
4 successful in getting cumulative voting
5 introduced, and I don't think there's another
6 place in the state of New York that has that.
7 This bill does not have it simply because the
8 machines are not quite ready yet to implement
9 the concept of cumulative voting.
10 I might add that I had some
11 interesting correspondence with Lani Guinier on
12 this subject and she thought it was a very good
13 method of ending up with an election that
14 ensures a proper representation to the elements
15 that make up the school body.
16 We provide for a financial
17 officer who would experience some pain if that
18 trust were not honored and the process of
19 identifying the financial officer, of course,
20 would be -- would be one that would have to be
21 sanctioned by the board and by the
22 superintendent and confirmed by the commissioner
23 of the Board of Education -- of the state
8744
1 educational system.
2 We've gone to great lengths to
3 provide a model, and it could well serve as a
4 model for other school bills in other counties,
5 providing for that degree of decentralization
6 and experience which might be useful to the
7 other counties.
8 So I feel, Mr. President, that in
9 passing this legislation we offer the
10 possibility of conducting an experiment, I
11 believe, on prudent lines, judicious lines with
12 a great deal -- with great evidence given the
13 rather sane and comfortable functioning of that
14 -- of the school system on Staten Island. It
15 has the highest reading scores and in all the
16 other indices, they are doing well.
17 It offers an opportunity, I
18 think, to enhance the -- the strength of a
19 community district -- and this is an experience
20 that those of you around the state know it only
21 too well because you have it. You live with it,
22 but we don't live with it in the -- in the city
23 of New York and we have been unable to implement
8745
1 the original legislation that the commission had
2 advanced to -- to several -- several years ago
3 as the result of many added factors that sort of
4 overheated the machine there and made it most
5 difficult to submit that to the -- the judgment
6 of the City as a whole.
7 So this bill really provides an
8 experiment under ideal conditions. It does not
9 propose to -- its funding would still be
10 dependent on the state and the city of New York
11 for its funding. It does not say that it ought
12 to be on a quid pro quo basis or anything. It
13 refers back to the methodology of making
14 apportionments of public substance, allocations,
15 appropriations in the same manner in which they
16 have been making them right along with perhaps a
17 slight overlay with whatever additional
18 administrative costs might be involved.
19 I might point out with reference
20 to any other county, we still might be conducted
21 at a cost lesser than the other counties because
22 our numbers already justify the creation of two
23 districts instead of one and we would get more
8746
1 money for that. The money that we would get in
2 that case would be sufficient to take care of
3 administrative expenses.
4 So it's -- it's an ideal
5 circumstance and an opportunity to see how an
6 independent district can function and perhaps
7 serve as a useful model, varied if other
8 circumstances are indicated in other boroughs of
9 the city of New York, but an opportunity to see
10 it function, I think, with -- with the better
11 guarantees that we had when we engaged in the
12 original decentralization process when a
13 district was selected that really had enormous
14 problems and should have been given greater
15 assistance rather than being thrown out on their
16 own to resolve their own problems.
17 So I hope that we give this
18 opportunity to create a model which could inure
19 to the benefit of the other four boroughs of the
20 city of New York as they pick and choose or
21 adopt elements that appeal to them for the
22 experience of the city.
23 I don't want to get into the
8747
1 question of Mr. Cortines. I think he's trying
2 very hard. He's a very fine individual, but I'm
3 just saying the system itself perhaps could
4 prosper with a closer rapport between the -- the
5 target population, the young children and the
6 faculty and the school system itself and its
7 governance and policy-making.
8 So I offer you this and I hope it
9 has your approbation.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Paterson.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
13 I want to thank Senator Marchi for the
14 explanation and, if he would yield, I have a
15 couple of questions.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Marchi, do you yield? The Senator yields.
18 SENATOR MARCHI: Certainly.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, if
20 the school district in Staten Island were
21 independent and if it were separated from the
22 rest of the state, our research shows -- and you
23 may or may not agree with this -- that actually
8748
1 the district would probably be eligible for less
2 funding than it receives now in comparison with
3 how it interacts with the other four boroughs of
4 the City, and so, if that's the case, then in
5 many ways doesn't this bill accomplish the
6 financial result of, in a sense, benefiting from
7 the association with the other four boroughs but
8 at the same time receiving the special benefit
9 that arises from the decision-making capacity?
10 So, in other words, is this bill really giving
11 the Staten Island district the best of both
12 worlds?
13 SENATOR MARCHI: No. I think
14 that the -- the fiscal effect when I first
15 entered into the question of secession was held
16 by the ones who took charge and conducted the
17 study in conjunction with the Senate Finance
18 Committee at that time was Abraham Lackman and
19 Mark Shaw, both very conscientious, exacting
20 students and they didn't come out with an
21 adverse picture. We probably would have less
22 special students so that that lifts -- that
23 lifts the average in some of the other counties.
8749
1 On the other hand, we have an
2 attendance -- you know, the argument goes on
3 whether we should compensate on the basis of
4 enrollment or attendance. We have a very high
5 degree of attendance. Our attendance is no
6 different from the attendance that you
7 experience in the other sections of the state,
8 and that's not the case in the city of New York,
9 so that based on attendance alone we would do
10 all right.
11 I don't think that what we found
12 out on the bottom line is that it would be user
13 neutral as far as dollars and cents. It would,
14 though, however, give us a degree of flexibility
15 in administering the public policy of the Island
16 school system.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Paterson.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: In Senator
21 Marchi's continuing effort to educate me, I know
22 that he will yield for one last question, but I
23 would like you to check with him.
8750
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Senator yields.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, my
4 final question is that the State Temporary
5 Commission on Education recommended that the
6 school districts in New York City be
7 decentralized but unified. Since the commission
8 was in existence -- and I know you were very
9 involved for a year and a half and spent
10 $500,000 of taxpayer money -- do you think it's
11 a good idea to stray that far from the
12 commission's recommendation and take this sort
13 of bifurcated approach?
14 SENATOR MARCHI: Well, we
15 certainly were very hopeful on the commission
16 that it be approved. Dean Byrne -- the dean of
17 public administration at the New York
18 University, along with key elements of the -- of
19 that school, seconded our efforts and followed
20 through and we had an excellent -- we had an
21 excellent membership on that body, people like
22 Saul Cohen now who is on the Board of Regents.
23 I mean, we had very, very strong -- a very, very
8751
1 strong membership on that body, but unhappily
2 that -- when the question came up that we might
3 go further -- oh, yes, Senator -- Senatrix, you
4 were a very distinguished member.
5 When the time came to move, the
6 whole system went off on rainbow curriculums and
7 other -- I'm not saying good or bad about the
8 subject, but totally displaced and preempted any
9 consideration that we might have received, and,
10 you know, we stood around spinning our thumbs
11 and pleaded saying, "Please, let's get going.
12 We have something worthwhile here", and the
13 dynamics had changed so radically. I don't
14 know. Perhaps it -- you know, today might be
15 another time.
16 If we pass this bill, it might
17 generate interest in doing precisely what you're
18 suggesting now, so it might be an indirect way
19 -- mine is a direct way of accomplishing
20 something. In your case, I think, by supporting
21 this, might also be calling attention to the
22 fact that we still have a work product that, I
23 think, is useful.
8752
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
2 Senator.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
6 act shall take effect January 1st.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
11 the results when tabulated.
12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
13 the negative on Calendar 186 are Senators Abate,
14 Connor and Paterson. Ayes 44, nays 3.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 Senator Marcellino.
18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
19 President, I believe it would be a good idea to
20 return to resolutions -- motions and
21 resolutions.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Before we
23 do that, Senator Mendez, why do you rise?
8753
1 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, I
2 would like the record to show that in the roll
3 call on Calendar 91, had I been -- had I been
4 present in the chamber, I would have voted in
5 the negative.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Mendez, the record will reflect that had you
8 been present when the roll call on Calendar
9 Number 91 was taken that you would have voted in
10 the negative. We will return to -
11 Senator Farley.
12 SENATOR FARLEY: I would like the
13 record to show that I was downstairs with about
14 60 students in the well of -- when 91 was
15 called and I would vote in the affirmative,
16 Senator Mendez.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Farley, the record will show that, in fact, you
19 were downstairs in the Capitol present having
20 been here earlier, and had you been present when
21 the roll call was taken that you would have been
22 recorded in the affirmative.
23 Senator Levy.
8754
1 SENATOR LEVY: Yes, Mr.
2 President. There's a privileged resolution at
3 the desk. I ask that 1613 be called up, the
4 title read and the resolution read in its
5 entirety.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We will
7 return to motions and resolutions and the
8 Secretary will read Resolution Number 1613 -
9 THE SECRETARY: By Senator -
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -- in its
11 entirety.
12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Levy,
13 Legislative Resolution, honoring Emanuel Kafka
14 upon the occasion of his retirement from the New
15 York State United Teachers.
16 WHEREAS, Emanuel "Manny" Kafka
17 retired from the New York State United Teachers
18 on August 5, 1994 after having given more than
19 22 years of outstanding leadership to and on
20 behalf of New York State United Teachers and New
21 York State Education; and
22 WHEREAS, "Manny" Kafka has
23 compiled an outstanding record of achievements
8755
1 and accomplishments as assistant director of
2 legislation for New York State United Teachers
3 from 1972 to 1994 at both the state and federal
4 levels of government; and
5 WHEREAS, Emanuel "Manny" Kafka
6 has over the years selflessly devoted his
7 leadership, time and energy to the important
8 concerns, interests, goals and achievements of
9 New York State United Teachers and all public
10 school teachers across New York.
11 Emanuel "Manny" Kafka has earned
12 the respect, gratitude and admiration of
13 teachers, administrators and other educators
14 across New York State through his hard and
15 successful work for and on behalf of public
16 school education.
17 Emanuel "Manny" Kafka in the
18 truest sense and spirit of service to his fellow
19 citizens selflessly devoted his time and energy
20 to important educational, civic and community
21 concerns and causes.
22 Emanuel "Manny" Kafka as a vital,
23 vigorous and responsive leader has selflessly
8756
1 devoted his time and energy to important
2 educational, professional and other concerns and
3 interests thereby leaving upon them his own
4 indelible and lasting mark.
5 Emanuel "Manny" Kafka who
6 graduated in 1949 from Brooklyn College began
7 his distinguished and successful career as a
8 teacher at Brandeis Elementary School in
9 Woodmere, New York, thereafter moving on to
10 teach at Elementary School 27 in the West
11 Hempstead Union Free School District for more
12 than 20 years before joining New York State
13 United Teachers in 1972.
14 Emanuel "Manny" Kafka, an
15 exemplary teacher, always enjoyed the highest
16 esteem of his students, their parents, teachers,
17 administrators and taxpayers of the West
18 Hempstead Union Free School District.
19 Emanuel "Manny" Kafka has
20 significantly contributed to improving and
21 bettering the quality of life of the residents
22 of North Bellmore, West Hempstead, Nassau County
23 and New York State by always seeking to increase
8757
1 community pride, respect and understanding
2 through his professional leadership and
3 community efforts.
4 Emanuel "Manny" Kafka has
5 demonstrated a deep and continuing concern for
6 others and in doing so, he has inspired others
7 to do the same.
8 Emanuel "Manny" Kafka's record of
9 achievements is an inspiration to all who have
10 the privilege and honor of knowing him.
11 Emanuel "Manny" Kafka has many -
12 has been recognized as a pillar within the home
13 communities of North Bellmore, West Hempstead,
14 Nassau County and New York State, always seeking
15 to build the firmest foundations upon which
16 North Bellmore, West Hempstead, Nassau County,
17 New York State and our nation will continue to
18 grow and prosper, now, therefore, be it
19 RESOLVED, that this legislative
20 body pause in its deliberations to applaud,
21 warmly congratulate, commend and salute Emanuel
22 Kafka upon the occasion of his retirement from
23 the New York State United Teachers after having
8758
1 given more than 22 years of outstanding leader
2 ship, selfless dedication and contributions to
3 and on behalf of New York State United Teachers,
4 and to further commend and salute him for his
5 more than 21 years of extraordinarily successful
6 leadership and selfless dedicated public service
7 as an educator in the West Hempstead Union Free
8 School District for the edification and
9 emulation of all, and be it further
10 RESOLVED, that a copy of this
11 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted
12 to Emanuel Kafka.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
14 recognizes Senator Levy on the resolution.
15 SENATOR LEVY: Thank you, very
16 much, Mr. President.
17 When we learned that Manny was
18 going to retire, it was a bittersweet occasion
19 for all of his friends. It was sad because we
20 who saw him on an everyday basis every day that
21 the Legislature was in session wouldn't be
22 seeing him on an everyday basis anymore, but as
23 his friends, we were happy. We were pleased
8759
1 and, in a sense, relieved for him and his family
2 that he was going to have the opportunity to do
3 and to pursue the many interests that he had
4 postponed over the years and interests which he
5 enjoyed.
6 I've known Manny, as so many in
7 this chamber who have served for a long period
8 of time, and those that have only known him for
9 a short period of time, I have known him for 22
10 years and I have first-hand knowledge of his
11 extraordinary knowledge. He, in his dealings as
12 a governmental rep', he was always fair. He was
13 always honest. He was always straight, and he
14 was always helpful.
15 Teacher that he is and teacher
16 that he was, Manny was zealously committed to
17 ensuring that every child receive a quality
18 education and have the opportunity therefor, and
19 that New York State meet its responsibilities
20 for funding that education. That was Manny's
21 hallmark, his tradition, and his legacy.
22 Manny Kafka is the best and he
23 deserves this -- he deserves the best and on the
8760
1 occasion of this loving Manny, we wish you good
2 health and enjoy and we are delighted that
3 Sheila is with you today to join in these
4 festivities.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
6 recognizes Senator Skelos.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, Mr.
8 President.
9 When I arrived in the Senate in
10 1985, one of the first people that I was
11 acquainted with was Manny Kafka who, as we all
12 know, represented the teachers so ably.
13 We had some misunderstanding at
14 the time over what occurred several months
15 earlier, but certainly we developed a fine
16 professional relationship, after about a month
17 or so of conversations with Norman Levy, of
18 course, teaching me a little bit about the
19 Albany process; but I had a great relationship
20 with Manny for so many years and certainly he
21 has been a strong advocate for the teaching
22 profession, but not only that, I always found
23 him to be fair.
8761
1 He understood our point of view.
2 He respected our point of view. He never would
3 mislead us as a lobbyist for the teachers' union
4 and that's something we definitely respect as
5 legislators.
6 So, Manny, we are going to miss
7 you, but we wish you a long, healthy, happy
8 retirement, but please come back and visit us.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Cook.
11 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President, I'm
12 not going to add a lot of words to what my
13 colleagues have already said and what the
14 resolution said, because I think they really did
15 summarize Manny's accomplishments, but I would
16 be remiss if I didn't say thank you, because
17 certainly in the responsibilities that I took
18 over not so many years ago, Manny was there as a
19 teacher for me and has always been very helpful
20 and I am very grateful for everything that you
21 have done for me, and I certainly want to add my
22 good wishes for many happy years.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8762
1 LaValle.
2 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President,
3 I rise to also echo the compliments that -
4 comments made by my colleagues, but I'm probably
5 the only one here who knew Manny Kafka in our
6 prior professional life.
7 I was a delegate to the New York
8 State Teachers Association House of Delegates
9 and knew Manny Kafka in his role as a person who
10 was running for the president of that
11 association from West Hempstead.
12 I was a little suspicious because
13 having graduated from Hempstead High School at
14 the time when West Hempstead split off, there
15 was an intense rivalry between Hempstead and
16 West Hempstead, so I always looked at someone
17 from West Hempstead with a little bit of
18 suspicion.
19 However, he rose far above any
20 suspicion that I or anyone could have because he
21 was a true leader that took the Teachers
22 Association from a group that was fighting for
23 legislation into a real professional operation.
8763
1 I knew him both as the executive
2 director of the Senate Education Committee and a
3 member and he was not only true to his word and
4 represented a point fairly and honestly, but I
5 think one other point must be made. He was
6 affable in dealing with us, and sometimes as we
7 all know, we get a bit too serious, a bit too
8 up-tight, and so when you deal with someone who
9 is affable in representing a point of view, it's
10 quite refreshing.
11 So I rise with the other
12 colleagues to congratulate him for his
13 dedication and many years representing the
14 profession and making it really what it is
15 today.
16 Good luck and congratulations,
17 Manny Kafka.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Tully.
20 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you very
21 much, Mr. President.
22 The field of education is an
23 extremely complex field and serving as a member
8764
1 the Higher Education Committee, I sometimes have
2 been baffled, but I have always been fortunate
3 in that I could count on my constituent, Manny
4 Kafka, as a friend. He has performed many
5 mitzvahs in that area for me. He has made my
6 life a lot easier and helped me to understand
7 those complexities and I'm extremely grateful
8 and I wish you and your family much health and
9 happiness in your retirement.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Farley.
12 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you.
13 These two guys on my right and
14 left are fighting over whose constituent you
15 are, but I know one thing, I am a colleague of
16 his. I think I'm the only one in this chamber
17 that's a dues paying member of the same union
18 that he represents, UUP, the United University
19 Professions, which is part of -- I have known
20 Manny for 20 years, and let me just say what a
21 wonderful job he's done here, and I was talking
22 to Manny and his lovely wife Sheila just prior
23 to him coming here to the gallery and he's on
8765
1 his way to Washington to solve all the health
2 care problems now as a consultant, so your work
3 is cut out for you, Manny, and we wish you -- I
4 guess they got the wrong mike on -- I don't know
5 if -- mine is not working. They shut me up, but
6 let me just say, Manny, I wish you all the
7 happiness and success in the world. You
8 certainly deserve it.
9 I recall a number of years ago
10 that he and my wife were at the Republican
11 convention in New Orleans and they gave them
12 some prime seats and the first day it was right
13 in front of a blank wall and they were the only
14 two seated there and I said, "Gee, I think we
15 better move." I think they did get you a decent
16 seat.
17 We Republicans do love you,
18 Manny, we want you to know that, but again, I
19 wish you well in all that you're doing and a
20 long and a happy and successful retirement.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Jones.
23 SENATOR JONES: Thank you, Mr.
8766
1 President.
2 I probably had the opportunity to
3 know Manny for the shortest amount of time of
4 anybody here, but since I came directly from the
5 classroom, it was fairly easy to find a new
6 friend in Manny. He always had the answers,
7 always offered wise counsel and he was an
8 excellent person to deal with.
9 He had to overlook in the
10 beginning the fact that I did have membership in
11 a different organization, but -- but the fact
12 that we both shared the love of the teaching
13 profession was more than enough to make it an
14 excellent relationship.
15 I wish you well, Manny. You will
16 certainly be missed by NYSUT but good luck in
17 your future endeavors.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Oppenheimer.
20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Well, I
21 just want to attest to the good that he has done
22 in imparting knowledge to all of us that we
23 might not have otherwise had. He's been a
8767
1 wonderful friend and advocate for children, for
2 schools, for legislation that responded to the
3 needs of the education system, and I think
4 Senator Kenny said -- Senator LaValle said what
5 I wanted to say, that it was just a pleasure to
6 know him because he's just a very warm and out
7 going and friendly human being and on top of all
8 of these accolades that he's receiving for his
9 knowledge, he's just a genuine and fine person
10 and I wish you the best, Manny, and are you
11 really going to Washington to tackle the health
12 problems? I don't know how much fun that's
13 going to be, but I certainly wish you well in
14 whatever you do and wish you a lot of health and
15 happiness in the coming years.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Hannon.
18 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Mr.
19 President.
20 As both a wise counselor and
21 sometimes constituent depending upon which lines
22 Senator Skelos has drawn, Manny has been
23 invaluable.
8768
1 In this business here of us
2 trying to represent individuals, we come to
3 information in many different ways. When it's
4 in the complicated arena of educating and
5 financing that education, we oftentimes take a
6 while to come to the sources of information we
7 can rely on the most, and over the past decade,
8 I think that I have relied on Manny in difficult
9 times on statewide issues and very difficult
10 times in local issues and questions of local
11 governance, local representation and local
12 finance.
13 As you move on to the arena of
14 health -- and I have moved on to the arena of
15 health -- I look forward to continuing an
16 ongoing relationship and thank you for much of
17 the wise counsel in the past.
18 Thank you.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Stafford.
21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr.
22 President.
23 I, too, want to join in the
8769
1 recognition of our friend, Manny. We go back
2 before the time of recorded history, so we have
3 seen a great deal.
4 I remember one time we were in a
5 meeting together, things had to change, and this
6 one person said, you know, there's an old
7 proverb that if you -- sometimes if you don't
8 change direction, you'll go where you're
9 headed. Fortunately, we were together, made the
10 right decisions.
11 Sometimes people say these
12 various interest groups, but before I go any
13 further, Mr. President, it took Manny to come in
14 here and blow the cover of Ken Lavalle and Hugh
15 Farley. I had no idea that they had been
16 involved in these activities, but we sometimes
17 question the various interests being represented
18 here in government, and I use the word
19 "interest" advisedly, but Manny has done it in
20 a very pleasant way and a very kind way and a
21 very effective way.
22 Like so many, we're always sorry
23 to see a friend change directions, but that has
8770
1 to be done at times and I'm sure that he will
2 remain most successful and Albany has been
3 better for "Manny" Kafka's activities.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 question is on the resolution. All those in
6 favor signify by saying aye.
7 (Response of "Aye".)
8 Opposed, nay.
9 (There was no response.)
10 The resolution is unanimously
11 adopted.
12 We're very pleased to have Manny
13 Kafka and his wife Sheila with us. Manny,
14 congratulations.
15 (Applause.)
16 SENATOR LEVY: Mr. President, I
17 would like to open up that resolution to all of
18 the members of the Senate. We will -- we would
19 put everybody on it.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Marcellino, is it all right with you and the
22 Minority Leader, Senator Paterson, if we put all
23 of the members of the chamber on except for
8771
1 those who wish not to go on the resolution?
2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
3 Chairman, I can't deny Senator Levy anything.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We will
5 put -- Senator Paterson, is that all right with
6 you?
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
8 we would all like to.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I'll
10 direct the Secretary to put all the members on
11 the resolution as co-sponsors except for those,
12 if there are any, who wish not to be on the
13 resolution.
14 We'll return to the controversial
15 -- Senator Larkin, why do you rise?
16 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, I
17 request unanimous consent to be recorded in the
18 negative on Calendar 727, Assembly Bill 6516.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
20 objection. Hearing no objection, Senator Larkin
21 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar
22 Number 727. We'll return -
23 Senator Espada.
8772
1 SENATOR ESPADA: If I may, Mr.
2 President, may I be recorded in the negative on
3 Calendar Numbers 91 and 186, please.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Espada, the record will reflect that had you
6 been in the chamber when a roll call was called
7 on Calendar Number 91 that you would have voted
8 in the negative.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you so
10 much.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Espada, you want to be recorded in the negative
13 on Calendar Number 186 also?
14 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes, sir.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Okay.
16 Without objection and hearing no objection,
17 Senator Espada will be recorded in the negative
18 on Calendar Number 186. Now we'll return to the
19 controversial calendar.
20 I'll ask the Secretary to read
21 the title to Calendar Number 341 by Senator
22 LaValle.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8773
1 341, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3569-A, an
2 act to establish the New York State Waste
3 Reduction and Management Institute.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 LaValle, an explanation of Calendar Number 341
7 has been asked for by the Acting Minority
8 Leader, Senator Paterson.
9 SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President,
10 this legislation would create statutorily a New
11 York State Waste Reduction and Management
12 Institute at the Marine Science Research Center
13 at SUNY-Stony Brook.
14 I say "statutorily" because this
15 institute has existed for many, many years, has
16 been supported in the budget by an appropriation
17 each and every year that it has been doing
18 business.
19 This legislation would place the
20 Stony Brook Waste Management Institute on a
21 similar footing with the Hazardous Waste
22 Institute at the State University at Buffalo and
23 also the Waste Management Institute at Cornell
8774
1 and would give the state three distinct and
2 separate waste management institutes focusing on
3 different areas.
4 This waste management institute
5 would have, as a primary focus, those method
6 ologies to reduce the amount of waste that is
7 put into the waste stream, whether we incinerate
8 it, landfill it or other methodologies such as
9 composting and recycling.
10 The idea for the statutory
11 inclusion of the waste management institute came
12 about after a study in 1991 by the New York
13 State Legislative Commission on Science and
14 Technology, the office of the vice-chairman, and
15 at that time, I was the vice-chairman of the
16 Commission of -- on Science and Technology.
17 The study that was done showed,
18 as I have indicated, the creation statutorily of
19 the Hazardous Waste Institute at University -
20 State University at Buffalo and also the one at
21 Cornell, and by creating the institute statutor
22 ily, it gave it greater recognition, greater
23 flow of money from outside sources as well as
8775
1 certainly a commitment from the state to
2 properly see that the activities of the
3 institute were funded.
4 And so this is another example of
5 how higher education becomes proactive in
6 helping us solve some of the problems that we -
7 that we have.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
11 I want to thank Senator LaValle for a thorough
12 and also clairvoyant explanation because I
13 wanted to ask a question about the funding
14 source, Senator LaValle, and you actually
15 already answered them, so the only question I
16 will ask you, if you would yield -
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 LaValle, do you yield? The Senator yields.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: -- is that the
20 reports that come out of the commission, I
21 understand, are going to be made available to
22 the Chair, but the Minority does not seem
23 through the legislation to have any access to
8776
1 the reports. Is there a mechanism that you
2 would be able to create that will allow us to
3 find out about the work of the commission?
4 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator
5 Paterson, in the past, I have, as a matter of
6 practice -- and if for some reason that practice
7 fell short in the case of the report -- but I
8 have handed up to the desk each of the reports
9 that have come from my standing committee or
10 from the vice-chairman's office of the
11 Commission on Science and Technology, and in
12 that way by handing up our reports to the desk,
13 they then become part of the public record and
14 allow each and every member and those outside of
15 this chamber to share in the findings of our
16 reports.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Very well.
18 Thank you.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8777
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
5 is passed.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Leichter, why do you rise?
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: May I have
10 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
11 on Calendar 186, is it? Is that Senator
12 Marchi's bill? It's crossed out on my calendar,
13 so I'm having trouble reading it. Yes, 186.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
15 objection. Hearing no objection, Senator
16 Leichter will be recorded in the negative on
17 Calendar Number 186.
18 Senator Tully, why do you rise?
19 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
20 President. I would like the calendar to reflect
21 I was out of the chamber when Calendar 91 was
22 called and had I been present in the chamber, I
23 would have voted in the affirmative on that.
8778
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 record will reflect, Senator Tully, that you
3 were out of the chamber when a roll call was
4 called on Calendar Number 91 but had you been
5 present, you would have voted in the
6 affirmative.
7 Senator Wright.
8 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I
9 request unanimous consent to be recorded in the
10 negative on Calendar Number 583, Senate 4146.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
12 objection. Hearing no objection, Senator Wright
13 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar
14 Number 583.
15 The Secretary will continue to
16 call the controversial calendar.
17 THE SECRETARY: On page 34,
18 Calendar 990, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print
19 3801-A, an act to amend the Private Housing
20 Finance Law, in relation to the powers of the
21 New York State Housing Finance Agency.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8779
1 Leibell, an explanation of Calendar Number 990
2 has been asked for by the Acting Minority
3 Leader, Senator Paterson.
4 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
5 President.
6 Mr. President, this bill will
7 increase the bonding authority for the New York
8 State Housing Finance Agency. This will be an
9 increase of $200 million and is needed for HFA
10 to continue for the bonding of new projects.
11 Currently, bonding authorizations
12 are going to be utilized by projects that HFA
13 has already received applications for but are
14 awaiting construction. Any new projects to come
15 in would probably find HFA without the bonding
16 authorization to fund those new projects.
17 HFA will hit its ceiling of
18 bonding authorization shortly and needs this
19 authorization in order to continue bonding.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Paterson.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
23 if Senator Leibell would yield.
8780
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Leibell, do you yield? The Senator yields.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I
4 don't know that I quarrel with the specifics of
5 what you're trying to accomplish, but I would
6 just like to put on the record some of the
7 general concerns.
8 This is something that Governor
9 Cuomo was criticized for roundly for a number of
10 years doing so. In fact, this whole process
11 goes back to the period when Governor
12 Rockefeller and Comptroller Arthur Levitt
13 existed, and what it really is is financing
14 without going through the budget process and
15 financing without going through a public
16 referendum.
17 Now, two years ago some citizens
18 action groups went to court and there was a
19 court ruling in April of 1993 that said that
20 this is really wrong that we're actually doing
21 this.
22 Over the past five years, I
23 believe we have invested $7.8 billion in this
8781
1 sort of back-door financing and I just want to
2 know at this time of the fiscal deficit that the
3 state is in, how we would want to add on any
4 more of this financing in this -- from this type
5 of source right after we just passed the New
6 York State budget.
7 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, we had
8 originally, I believe, a request for a much
9 larger sum than this. We put the $200 million
10 in there after negotiations with the Assembly.
11 These funds will, as you know, be utilized
12 fairly quickly and I certainly am not going to
13 speculate on what Governor Cuomo would have
14 suggested if he were still governor.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Paterson.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
18 I'm not going to speculate either on what
19 anybody would have done, and I don't see this
20 necessarily as a partisan issue.
21 What we're really just saying is
22 that this is just something that -- for the
23 issue at hand, Senator Leibell is probably
8782
1 addressing a good issue, but it's just something
2 that we recommend we take a new look at. We
3 have a new governor. He has talked about public
4 waste. In some respects, we have actually
5 started to act on it. In some respects, we
6 actually have not started to act on it. There
7 is a Constitution that governs us on this
8 particular issue. It's my opinion we've found a
9 way around the Constitution. It doesn't really
10 matter to me, Senator Leibell, whether it's the
11 Assembly or the Senate, Republican or Democrat,
12 whoever it is, it's something that we, I think,
13 as a legislature, need to take a closer look
14 at.
15 The goal that is trying to be
16 achieved through this legislation can be
17 achieved, but in a way that shows a greater
18 concern and responsibility to the voters who
19 elected us.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
21 will read the last section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
23 act shall take effect immediately.
8783
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll.)
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Hannon to explain his vote.
6 SENATOR HANNON: Mr. President,
7 I'm voting in favor of this, and I find the
8 comments of the Minority totally puzzling. If
9 there is any type of borrowing, it will be the
10 borrowing on projects that are not well
11 financed, that are fiscal dodges, that are
12 excuses for finding real revenue or real cuts in
13 expenditures.
14 This is in regard to housing in
15 the state, in regard to the ownership of
16 individual owners, and never during the entire
17 course of Mario Cuomo and Hugh Carey's
18 administration while these ceilings were being
19 raised, do I ever find the type of comments that
20 are now made on this floor, ever voiced or ever
21 even offered.
22 So I think there is a need to
23 really think through the types of borrowing that
8784
1 you may have questions about and to understand
2 that sometimes there's good borrowing and
3 sometimes there's bad borrowing, and certainly
4 there's causes of -- I think there's places to
5 reform, but if you have any place to put it,
6 it's not here.
7 Thank you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Hannon recorded in the affirmative.
10 Senator Paterson to explain his
11 vote.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
13 I'd just like to explain that Senator Hannon
14 might justifiably differ with me on the content
15 of this particular legislation, but already
16 conceded I thought this would cure really a -
17 would inure to the benefit of New York City
18 residents to have the legislation.
19 My general opposition is what I
20 expressed on this floor two years ago which at
21 the time Governor Cuomo was governor, and I just
22 wanted to point out that I haven't changed my
23 point of view on this subject at all.
8785
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How do
2 you vote, Senator Paterson?
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, that's a
4 point of view, Mr. President, I might change,
5 but I vote in favor.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson will be recorded in the affirmative.
8 Announce the results.
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 Senator Solomon.
13 SENATOR SOLOMON: I would like
14 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
15 on Calendar Number 186.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
17 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Solomon
18 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar
19 Number 186.
20 Senator Maziarz, why do you
21 rise?
22 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
23 I would like unanimous consent to be recorded in
8786
1 the negative on Calendar Number 583, please.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
3 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Maziarz
4 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar
5 Number 583.
6 Secretary will continue to read
7 the controversial calendar.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 994, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 5019, an
10 act to amend the Real Property Actions and
11 Proceedings Law, in relation to landlord and
12 tenant proceedings.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Leibell, an explanation of Calendar Number 994
16 has been asked for by Senator Paterson.
17 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
18 President. This is an act that will seek to
19 amend the Real Property Actions and Proceedings
20 Law. We have found that court delays have cost
21 owners of rental property tens of millions of
22 dollars in rents that are legitimately owed,
23 plus millions more in legal fees, and also has
8787
1 contributed to the clogging of an already
2 congested court system.
3 The current system that we
4 presently work under has unfortunately worked to
5 exacerbate this condition. Senate 5019 proposes
6 to require a tenant, upon a second adjournment
7 by the tenant or the court, to deposit past due
8 rent with the court as well as future rents as
9 they become due until the court has decided the
10 case. It's hoped that as a result of this
11 legislation individuals will no longer clog the
12 courts with unnecessary delays simply trying to
13 beat the system, and also that owners who
14 currently lose millions of dollars in legitimate
15 rents will now have assurance that long delays
16 will not result in the loss of significant
17 rental income.
18 I might note also that we are
19 greatly concerned with the viability of marginal
20 buildings where the loss of even a portion of
21 the associated rental stream can be significant.
22 This will hopefully be improved -- will improve
23 this to the benefit of its occupants as well as
8788
1 to the owner.
2 I would also note that there will
3 be an amendment to this legislation to provide
4 that where rent is provided through a social
5 agency that that part of the rent will not be
6 payable into court.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Paterson.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
10 if Senator Leibell will be kind enough to yield?
11 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Senator.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 yields.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
15 Leibell, in 1971 -- actually in 1970, the
16 Legislature passed a bill that where there were
17 emergency repairs that needed to be made that
18 the funds had to be -- had to be delivered to
19 the court in advance. In 1971, that case was
20 found by our Supreme Court, the Court of Appeals
21 actually, to be unconstitutional. In this
22 legislation, aren't we doing the same thing?
23 Aren't we asking the tenant to pay something in
8789
1 advance of a court decision?
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: What we have
3 found, Senator, is that many people are using
4 this system, in effect, to beat the system.
5 What they are doing is they are deliberately
6 delaying the process and, in fact, at some point
7 down the line there will be an adjudication, and
8 then they will come back in and say, We are
9 possibly unable to pay it because too much rent
10 has accumulated or, in fact, that they will just
11 leave the facility, the housing altogether, and
12 landlords, maybe many of them marginal
13 landlords, will be left with nothing.
14 That is an attempt to address
15 that problem and to do it in such a way that
16 will be fair, because at an early point in the
17 proceeding rents will be payable into court, and
18 the judge will then have sufficient assets
19 available, if necessary, to pay the landlord the
20 rent.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
22 through you to Senator Leibell.
23 Senator Leibell, I'm demurring to
8790
1 your complaint. I'm saying you're right. That
2 does happen, but what I'm saying is that this
3 particular method of trying to ameliorate the
4 problem seems to me by comparison to be
5 something that will not be able to withstand
6 judicial scrutiny.
7 SENATOR LEIBELL: You are making
8 a constitutional argument.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Right. I'm
10 saying that I don't think that the legislation
11 would hold up to a constitutional argument, even
12 though I'm agreeing with you that it would
13 probably repair the situation where individuals,
14 when they have lost adjudication, have -- at
15 that point owe so much money that they are not
16 paying.
17 SENATOR LEIBELL: The Supreme
18 Court has upheld the constitutionality of a
19 positive rent statute which is actually more
20 stringent than this proposed legislation. The
21 court in rejecting the due process challenge to
22 that law commented that, in quotes, "A
23 requirement that the tenant pay or provide for
8791
1 the payment of rent during the continuance of an
2 action for nonpayment of rent is hardly
3 irrational or oppressive."
4 Rather, the court had noted that
5 if the tenant remained in possession of an
6 apartment, a landlord might be deprived of due
7 process of law.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
11 Leibell, to me, that is kind of a different
12 statute -- correct me if I'm wrong -- because
13 here we're not taking the money out of the
14 tenant's hands in advance. In other words,
15 that's how I would distinguish the case that you
16 are bringing up from the case which I brought up
17 which I thought was very similar to your bill.
18 SENATOR LEIBELL: Well, actually,
19 I think this is probably on very strong
20 constitutional ground. The rents we're talking
21 about would only be those which would be due
22 under the contract, the lease to begin with,
23 and, if, in fact, there would be any defense to
8792
1 that, having paid it into court, the court will
2 be able to make the proper adjudication and, if
3 necessary, determine that the rents are not
4 payable.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Through you,
6 Mr. President. Senator Leibell, would you yield
7 for -
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Leibell, do you yield?
10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
11 President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 yields.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I
15 want to give you an example of how it might not
16 be the case. How would we determine what the
17 past rent due is?
18 SENATOR LEIBELL: The same way we
19 would in any sort of proceeding. The court
20 would be able to make a determination as to
21 whether or not this rent was due; if there was
22 some mitigating circumstances, why it would not
23 be due.
8793
1 SENATOR PATERSON: But then -
2 Mr. President, through you.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
6 President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 continues to yield.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: We would have
10 to make that determination right away, wouldn't
11 we?
12 SENATOR LEIBELL: You would have
13 at an appropriate time a hearing, but I would
14 note the bill provides for this only upon the
15 second adjournment, which has been requested by
16 a tenant or by the court.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
18 Leibell, if you would yield for another
19 question?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
22 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8794
1 continues to yield.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Suppose the
3 landlord has added on late charges and other
4 delinquent amounts, does the tenant have to pay
5 them in advance even though that hasn't been
6 litigated as yet?
7 SENATOR LEIBELL: If I understand
8 your question, Senator, what this bill is
9 talking about is the rent itself, not additional
10 charges. This is talking about paying the rent
11 into court.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: All right.
13 That is certainly sufficient answer to that.
14 Senator Leibell, suppose that the tenant is
15 charging that the landlord has overcharged in
16 the first place?
17 SENATOR LEIBELL: Well, prior to
18 this legislation being activated, there would
19 have been prior opportunities in court to have
20 made that allegation.
21 Go back again, Senator. This
22 only becomes -- this legislation only become
23 active upon a second adjournment by the tenant
8795
1 or the court.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
3 President. I was assuming that we would not
4 have known that because of the adjournments that
5 actually have existed.
6 But if Senator Leibell would
7 continue to yield?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
10 The Senator yields.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
12 Leibell, once the two adjournments accrue and
13 now these monies have to be paid in by the
14 tenant, doesn't the situation reverse itself
15 now? In other words, we have met the threshold
16 for which the tenant is due to pay past rent and
17 also future rent while the tenant is still
18 staying on the premises. Doesn't that, maybe in
19 some respects, become a constructive eviction?
20 If you consider the fact that maybe the tenant
21 is averring that there's been an overcharge in
22 the first place, and now it's the landlord, not
23 the tenant, that can delay the proceedings by
8796
1 adjourning over and over, forcing the tenant to
2 make these payments to the court.
3 Now, we have a situation arising
4 from the tenant's delinquent payments to the
5 court, but the charge that the tenant is making
6 directly relates to how much money should be
7 paid to the court in the first place. So I'm
8 saying, are we now tipping the scales too much
9 on the other side in an attempt to alleviate a
10 situation that I will concede is addressed by
11 your bill.
12 SENATOR LEIBELL: I don't see why
13 we would be concerned with or worried about an
14 overcharge because the lease is going to state
15 what the rent is on the face of it, and that's
16 what the court is going to be considering. The
17 argument you are making, I don't see how that
18 would come into play because it's going to be
19 spelled out in the papers that will be before
20 the court what the precise rent was.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, I
22 understand that, Senator Leibell. But you would
23 concede that the -- it would be very easy to
8797
1 overcharge on the actual lease? I mean that
2 could happen; is that not correct?
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: Overcharge in
4 terms of -- I don't know if I understand exactly
5 what you are saying, Senator. Are you talking
6 about in terms of the value for the lease?
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Right, that
8 that actually could be an overcharge.
9 SENATOR LEIBELL: Well, that
10 certainly is something that the court would have
11 an opportunity to take a look at and to
12 consider.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Paterson.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
16 Senator Leibell. My final question relates to
17 the cost aspect. Your bill seems to indicate
18 that there isn't any, but research seems to
19 indicate it that it takes at least 68 minutes to
20 process one of these types of situations. You
21 don't think that there is a cost that's accrued
22 from that?
23 SENATOR LEIBELL: No, actually,
8798
1 Senator, I looked into that, and there's some
2 estimates that this could cost in terms of
3 actual lost rent $130 million a year in New York
4 City and possibly $70 million in legal fees, and
5 court costs bringing it up close to a $200
6 million figure.
7 In terms of cost to the court
8 system itself, I think any time it might take to
9 administer this in court will be more than made
10 up for by the reduced amount of litigation that
11 we hopefully will see in the court as a result
12 of this bill.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
14 much, Senator Leibell.
15 Mr. President, on the bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Paterson, on the bill.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: I think the
19 legal fees will go up as a result of this
20 legislation, because as we learned from our
21 discussion that we just held that there will be
22 an additional number of hearings that will be
23 generated by the determination that the court
8799
1 will have to make as to what it is that the
2 tenant will have to pay back prior to the actual
3 litigation of the case.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
6 recognizes Senator Leichter.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
8 President, if Senator Leibell will be so good as
9 to yield?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Leibell, do you yield to Senator Leichter?
12 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
13 President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 yields.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
17 have some difficulty accepting an answer that
18 you gave to a question posed by Senator
19 Paterson. Senator Paterson asked you the
20 situation where the landlord has tacked on
21 additional amounts as rent, attorney's fees or
22 late fees, and so on.
23 Now, the uniform leases in New
8800
1 York City always provide that these amounts are
2 considered rent. Your bill states solely that
3 upon -- refers only -- and I'm looking at line
4 20, on page 1, refers to "past rent".
5 The leases all provide that these
6 additional amounts are considered rent. In view
7 of that, isn't Senator -- wasn't Senator
8 Paterson correct when he says that, if some
9 tenant wants to challenge outrageously high late
10 fees, attorneys' fees, and so on, that tenant
11 would be required to deposit that money into
12 court on the second adjournment?
13 SENATOR LEIBELL: This
14 legislation, Senator, only applies to the actual
15 rent, and this legislation would control any
16 lease.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
18 if Senator Leibell would be good enough to
19 yield?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Can you tell
23 me where -
8801
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
2 me, Senator Leichter.
3 Senator Leibell, do you continue
4 to yield?
5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, sir.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 continues to yield.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, where
9 in your bill do you use the word "actual"?
10 Don't you just use the word "rent"? Can you
11 point out to me where it says "actual"?
12 SENATOR LEIBELL: Line 9 -- we
13 don't use the word "actual," but line 9 is the
14 language I would say addresses your concern,
15 "that tenants post all sums of past rent in
16 use."
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator
18 Leibell, I want to point out to you that doesn't
19 address my concern. It only heightens my
20 concern, because it uses the word "rent" -
21 SENATOR LEIBELL: Well,
22 Senator -
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: If I may just
8802
1 finish my question?
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: And the word
4 "rent" is defined in the lease as, "All amounts
5 due" which include attorneys' fees, late
6 charges, and so on, and you will see that the
7 uniform leases that landlords use probably not
8 only in the city of New York but throughout the
9 state, the Blumberg forms, and so on, all define
10 rent. Rent is all the additional amounts due in
11 addition to what you refer to as the actual
12 amount, and having failed to state "actual" but
13 having just used the word "rent," which is then
14 defined in the lease, I think you are imposing
15 on the tenant the obligation to put all that
16 money in the court. The tenant may not have
17 it.
18 You know, there's working people
19 out there, and I know you appreciate it, because
20 I know you have the concern. They don't have
21 money left at the end of the month. They pay
22 their rent. They pay for their food. They pay
23 for their utilities. They pay for what they owe
8803
1 on their car. Now the landlord comes and says,
2 "Well, you were late last month, and I'm going
3 to charge you an additional thousand dollars as
4 rent." Your bill requires that tenant to put up
5 that money. The tenant may not have it.
6 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, this
7 bill which I'm sponsoring does not provide for
8 anything other than rent, and I will tell you,
9 Senator, that that is the legislative intent and
10 I tell you, as the sponsor, that this will only
11 apply to rent, and we do not define that for
12 purposes of this bill as including anything but
13 the actual rent that will be spelled out in a
14 lease.
15 Certainly, if you have any
16 concerns on that, I would be happy to consider a
17 chapter amendment if you wish to put it in, but
18 that's our legislative intent.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Leichter.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
23 Leibell will be good enough to yield?
8804
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
3 Senator continues on yield.
4 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
6 appreciate that that is what you "intend," but I
7 think the bill and, if it becomes law, the
8 statute is governed by the actual words that you
9 use and, if you have ever been in court as I
10 have and argued about intent on legislation that
11 I have voted on and before a judge, and they can
12 barely, you know, cover the big smile or the
13 laugh because they will say, "Well, if you
14 intend it, you've got to put it into the
15 statute," and I would really urge you -- don't
16 ask me to put in a chapter to your bill. If you
17 mean "actual," the basic rent -- and "basic" is
18 the word that you ought to use -- then you ought
19 to put in a chapter to carry out your intent
20 because, I respectfully submit, that as your
21 bill is drafted now it does not carry out that
22 intent.
23 But if you will be good enough to
8805
1 yield to another question?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Leibell, do you yield?
4 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Senator yields.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I see
8 that your memo in support says there are no
9 fiscal implications. Is that correct?
10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Have you read
12 the memorandum that was submitted by -- I
13 believe it's Judge Silverman, Jackie Silverman,
14 of the Civil Court? I think she's the -- she's
15 the Administrative Judge, and she testified at a
16 hearing in the City Council on your bill and on
17 a resolution which supported your bill, or urged
18 the adoption, and here's what she said. "In
19 both" -- and I'm quoting her now, "In both the
20 deposit situations outlined above, the court
21 must spend a tremendous amount of time.
22 Previously, with the use of the trust fund,
23 there was a continuing bookkeeping. Currently,
8806
1 in the event we make the deposits to the
2 Department of Finance, there's substantial
3 paperwork. In either case, the potential for
4 error is very large especially in the numbers
5 being considered. The following is an outline
6 of the time needs," and then she goes on and she
7 points out, and then she continues, and I'm
8 quoting again, "Assuming that all persons who
9 come to court make deposits as required by the
10 proposal and that the deposits are sent to the
11 Department of Finance, this will require
12 citywide approximately 68 minutes times 199,800
13 deposits. This equals 13,000 -- I'm sorry -
14 13,586,400 minutes or 226,440 hours of work.
15 Each clerk works approximately 257 hours a day,
16 therefore, each clerk works approximately 1,750
17 hours per year. Dividing 226,440 hours by 1,750
18 and assuming that all of this person's time is
19 devoted to this task, we will need citywide at
20 least 130 clerks. Considering absenteeism,
21 vacations, et cetera, we need a backup system of
22 10 percent, which requires an extra 13 clerks.
23 This is a total of 143 clerks."
8807
1 How, in view of that, can you say
2 there's no fiscal implications?
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator,
4 listening to you recount those figures, it
5 sounds like bureaucracy at its worst. I think
6 that's the statement that was given to the City
7 Council. It certainly would indicate that we
8 need to take a look at some of the proceedings
9 within that court.
10 But, beyond that, I go back to my
11 original statement, and I think Senator Paterson
12 acknowledged that we do have a problem in New
13 York City and elsewhere, but especially in the
14 City, with the nonpayment of rent and using the
15 court system itself to take an advantage over
16 landlords, whether they be large landlords or
17 small landlords -- and many of them are small
18 landlords -- and it results in a tremendous
19 amount of lost income to the economy of the
20 City.
21 What the judge did not factor in
22 and what is most significant is the amount of
23 the backlog in that court and the amount of the
8808
1 caseload in that court that would not exist in
2 the first place if this bill were to become law.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Leichter.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
6 if Senator Leibell will yield to one or two
7 other questions?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Do you
9 yield, Senator Leibell?
10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
11 President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 yields.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
15 will address your answer when I comment on the
16 bill.
17 But let me ask you -- in an
18 answer, I believe, that you made to Senator
19 Paterson, you referred to some Supreme Court
20 decision which upheld the scheme that you are
21 setting up under this bill. Was that a U.S.
22 Supreme Court decision, and could you give me
23 the name and the citation?
8809
1 SENATOR LEIBELL: Lindsay versus
2 Normet, N-o-r-m-e-t, 405 US 56, 1971.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Because
4 I'm -
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
7 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
8 President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 continues to yield.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm told that
12 the decision by the United States in Bode versus
13 Connecticut, which Judge Silverman in her
14 testimony referred to as probably making this
15 requirement that a tenant post the amount that's
16 at issue before the matter is decided as being
17 violative of due process and has been condemned
18 by the U.S. Supreme Court. Lindsay versus
19 Normet, which you refer to -- and, actually, as
20 I take a look at Lindsay versus Normet, I
21 believe that this was not an issue of rent
22 deposit prior to the determination of the very
23 issue which was involved in the case, and I
8810
1 think that's the point that we're making here,
2 that it's unheard of that in order to have your
3 right litigated that you've got to put up the
4 money in advance.
5 Mr. President, on the bill,
6 please.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Leichter, on the bill.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: I see a number
10 of problems with this bill. I think first of
11 all, it's inherently unfair. It's unfair to
12 single out tenants in the city of New York and
13 to make them the only litigants in order for
14 them to have their issues litigated that they
15 have to go and deposit the amount at issue into
16 court.
17 Now, Senator Leibell says it's
18 only after a second adjournment. But, as we
19 know, these are working people. Because of the
20 nature of their job, they may not be able to
21 respond to a case in the first time and I'm not
22 even sure, and I have to look at the bill,
23 whether the adjournment is actually at the
8811
1 application of the tenant.
2 Secondly, I think this bill is
3 unnecessary because there's now a power in the
4 court, under Section 754 of the Civil Practice
5 Law and Rules, to require under some
6 circumstances that have to be established and
7 where the court has discretion, that the tenant
8 has to deposit that rent into court. So where
9 it's needed, where there's some taking advantage
10 of the landlord or the court by the tenant, the
11 court has that power.
12 Thirdly, as I am advised and as I
13 understand the law of equal protection and laws
14 protecting litigants from being unfairly
15 deprived of access to the court, I think the
16 Supreme Court has made it fairly clear that laws
17 like this which keep people from the courts,
18 which single out particular litigants, tend to
19 run afoul of the due process clause and,
20 certainly, Judge Silverman, who is an extremely
21 able jurist, feels that this law would be
22 unconstitutional.
23 Finally, I just want to -- well,
8812
1 not finally but next to final, I want to point
2 out that this bill if it becomes law will
3 require additional personnel. I mean to say
4 under each and every circumstance when the
5 Republicans come up with bills which require
6 additional work, whether it's by the Judiciary
7 or by the Executive branch, "Oh, they can do it;
8 that's no problem; they've got all the personnel
9 they need," I think that's unfair. I say with
10 all due respect, Senator Leibell, and I
11 certainly have respect for you and you have a
12 reputation for fairness, I don't think in this
13 instance you are being fair when you say, "Well,
14 this is just an instance of bureaucracy." It's
15 clear that if you're going to require millions
16 of dollars deposited into court then it's going
17 to require personnel who are going to have to do
18 this and who are going to have to oversee it,
19 and I can just tell you, having been frequently
20 in the Housing Court, it's an extremely over
21 worked court as it is, and those clerks work as
22 hard as anybody that I know of in the judicial
23 system.
8813
1 Finally, I just want to address
2 what I find very troublesome, and that is a
3 pattern of bills that we see being put forward
4 by the Republicans and I guess are reflective of
5 the Republican far right wing which seeks to cut
6 off people's access to courts. We've had a
7 number of bills, bills limiting shareholders
8 from going to court, bills limiting people who
9 have been injured in going to courts. Now,
10 here's a bill which would limit tenants and make
11 it difficult for them to have their case tried
12 in court.
13 I think one of the great things
14 about this country is that we have a judicial
15 system, that we want to give people maximum
16 access to our courts so that disputes that they
17 consider are valid are disposed of in courts,
18 and to impose this barrier, to say, "You want
19 your case tried in court? You dig into your
20 pocket and put up the money, and if you don't
21 have the money, your case will not be heard.
22 You will, in effect, not have access to the
23 court, and you will be required to pay the
8814
1 amount that the landlord, in this case, demands,
2 no matter how irrational, no matter how
3 unfounded, no matter how unjust. Tenant, you
4 want your case tried, you ante up the money in
5 advance." I don't think that's the American way
6 of doing things.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We will
8 interrupt the debate just momentarily for an
9 announcement.
10 Senator Larkin.
11 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President,
12 there will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
13 Committee in Room 332. Immediate meeting of the
14 Rules Committee in Room 332.
15 Thank you, Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
17 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
18 Committee in the Senate Majority Conference
19 Room, Room 332. Rules Committee, Majority
20 Conference Room, Room 332.
21 Senator Johnson, why do you
22 rise?
23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
8815
1 I would like to ask Senator Leichter if he would
2 respond to a question.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Leichter, do you yield to Senator Johnson?
5 Senator Johnson, the Senator
6 yields.
7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator
8 Leichter, you mentioned that the Housing Court
9 would have to get 143 more clerks.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Sorry, I can't
11 hear you.
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: You mentioned
13 that they would need 143 more clerks in the
14 Housing Court if this procedure were to take
15 place. Do you know what that would cost? How
16 many dollars would that cost?
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Judge
18 Silverman estimated that the -- even -- her
19 estimate was, "Okay, I need 143 clerks," but
20 let's say that I get by with 50 because that's
21 all that the court system will give me. The
22 cost of that would be $1,980,000.
23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, you
8816
1 heard Senator Leibell mention that $130,000 in
2 rents are not paid each year plus legal costs
3 amounting to a couple of hundred million
4 dollars. Now, do you think a million dollars
5 spent to save 130 million or 200 million on
6 behalf of the landlord who will now have that
7 money available to maintain his property would
8 be a good trade-off in terms of the housing
9 stock of New York City?
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
11 President. There's two answers to the point
12 that you make, Senator Johnson. First of all,
13 it's apples and oranges. I mean you're not
14 talking of hundreds of millions of dollars to
15 government. This is an expenditure by the
16 government.
17 The fact that landlords may get a
18 certain amount which you claim and I dispute
19 they are entitled to in the amounts that you
20 have stated certainly doesn't make that equal.
21 You still have to come up with the money for
22 government, in this instance, the Judiciary.
23 Secondly, the figures that you come up to, I
8817
1 think, are grossly inflated, exaggerated,
2 illusory. Could you show me where you come up
3 with this hundreds of millions of dollars that
4 landlords are being denied?
5 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, I've
6 accepted your figure at face value, and for the
7 moment, let's say it's somewhere in the ball
8 park. The money which the courts spend comes
9 from businesses and individuals in this state,
10 the tax revenues that they spend.
11 If a landlord -- and,
12 cumulatively, landlords are losing $100 million
13 or $200 million. That reduces the amount of
14 revenues collected by government, income tax,
15 real estate tax. It even leads to abandonment
16 of properties, in many cases, because the money
17 is not there to maintain those buildings. So it
18 certainly seems -- and, additionally, the
19 assessed valuations of these properties or the
20 selling prices are based upon a rate of return.
21 If a landlord can't collect 5 or 10 or 20
22 percent of his rent, that diminishes the value
23 of his property. So, Senator, don't you believe
8818
1 that there's a negative effect by us interfering
2 in this process of people paying their
3 contractual obligations?
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, there
5 is a big difference between your figures and my
6 figures. Your figures are taken out of the
7 air. They are made up out of whole cloth unless
8 you can cite to me somebody who's come up with
9 these figures, and not only cite an authority
10 for it but show to me with the detail that I
11 showed to you, quoting the judge who is in part
12 -- I'm sorry -- who is in charge of that part
13 of the Civil Court. She's given you exactly,
14 very detailed, the minutes it takes, the clerks
15 it takes, how much they work, how much it
16 costs. You come up, and you throw out some wild
17 figure.
18 But, Senator, there's another
19 answer, and the answer is that this money is not
20 lost if the landlord -- if the landlord is
21 entitled to the money, you've got a court. The
22 court is going to say the landlord is entitled
23 to this money. It's far different for the
8819
1 tenant. The tenant -- if the tenant can't pay
2 his way in the court, the tenant isn't in a
3 position to put up the money, the tenant will
4 never have an opportunity to have his or her
5 case tried. If the tenant is given access to
6 the court and the landlord is correct as you
7 claim he is, the landlord will recover.
8 I understand in some instances
9 tenants will leave without paying the rent.
10 That's happened. There's deadbeats who are
11 tenants, there's deadbeats who are landlords,
12 there's deadbeats in our society, but not
13 anywhere in the amounts that you have stated.
14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Johnson, are you asking Senator Leichter to
17 yield again?
18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, I'd like
19 to ask him a question.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Leichter, do you yield?
22 The Senator yields.
23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator
8820
1 Leichter, do you think -- you -- you just
2 acknowledged that you know some people skip out
3 on their rent, and we know that that's the
4 case. It's an open secret in New York City that
5 the Housing Court is where the landlords take
6 you, and that's where you can not pay rent for
7 six or eight or whatever months by deferring the
8 day of judgment until you finally skip out and
9 don't pay.
10 I have not only anecdotal
11 evidence but have read articles, and I'm
12 surprised you don't know it being you are in the
13 City.
14 But my question is, why would the
15 tenant have any objection to deposit the rent
16 with an impartial person, the judge, until it's
17 adjudicated unless they intend to defraud the
18 landlord? Why would they object to the judge
19 holding their rent, and why would you defend
20 their right not to put it up?
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator -
22 Senator, I think your question is very
23 interesting, and I think it really shows, with
8821
1 all due respect, how out of touch some of you
2 are with working people. Why would the tenant
3 object to paying the rent? Because the tenant
4 doesn't have that money. There aren't that many
5 people in our society, not tenants in the City
6 of New York, who have hundreds of thousands of
7 dollars and who can, "Oh, I've got to pay to
8 have my case adjudicated? Fine. I will put up
9 the money."
10 We're not talking about people
11 who have Park Avenue co-ops and we're talking
12 about their carrying charges or who have Fifth
13 Avenue duplexes and are paying $5,000 or $10,000
14 a month. We're talking about working people,
15 Senator, and at the end of the month, they
16 probably have nothing left, and now what you are
17 saying is that they've got to pay their money up
18 in advance, and I say to you that that's wrong.
19 We're not talking a basic rent,
20 because I think I pointed out very conclusively
21 that this legislation is flawed because it
22 includes additional amounts the landlord may
23 falsely claim.
8822
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Leichter -- Senator Johnson, are you asking
3 Senator Leichter to yield?
4 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes. Senator
5 Leichter, I find your answer very intriguing.
6 You said you don't think people should be able
7 to live rent free. But you say they don't have
8 the rent; therefore, they can't pay it.
9 Now, most of these cases when
10 they go to Housing Court are already two to
11 three months behind. How long shall a landlord
12 wait for a person who can not pay their rent,
13 who does not fulfill his contractual obligation,
14 before he seeks to remove him and put a tenant
15 in there who can pay the rent so that he can
16 maintain his property, not only for the benefit
17 of the landlord's enrichment but so everyone
18 else can live in a reasonably maintained
19 building?
20 If they can't pay the rent,
21 Senator, for two or three months, they should
22 not -- they should -- they have broken their
23 lease, essentially. Why should the landlord be
8823
1 held to provide housing for someone who does not
2 choose or can't pay their rent? How can you
3 defend that, Senator?
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, the
5 point is -- first of all, tenants put up
6 deposits. You don't get an apartment in New
7 York without having one or two months' deposit.
8 Secondly, under the law of
9 landlord and tenant, a landlord gets rights that
10 no other litigant has which is, not only does he
11 get a judgment for the rent that's owed but he
12 also gets the apartment. He can evict the
13 tenant. It happens in our system of law that
14 you sue somebody and, by the time you recover,
15 that person has put the property in his wife's
16 name and sheltered his money in many different
17 ways. In fact, you voted for legislation
18 earlier this year which allows people to shelter
19 their income so that a judgment creditor won't
20 get it. I was the only one who voted against
21 it. It was a bill by Senator Volker. That
22 happens to be part of our economic system.
23 But landlords are protected in a
8824
1 way that nobody else is because a landlord can
2 get possession of the building, and the landlord
3 also has a security deposit which he can apply,
4 so we're not dealing with a situation where
5 tenants are going to be able to live rent free
6 for months and months and months and then the
7 tenant is going to move out and leave the
8 landlord with a big bill.
9 The fact is that you haven't or
10 Senator Leibell has not come up with any
11 figures. You've come up, as you so often do -
12 I don't mean you personally -- but as we so
13 often have, the Republican right, with your
14 mythology. Give us facts. Give us figures,
15 Senator. I gave you facts and figures. You
16 give me facts and figures, not just a figure, an
17 amount that you pull out of thin air.
18 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator
19 Leichter, would you stand for another question?
20 Mr. President?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Leichter, do you yield?
23 Senator yields.
8825
1 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator
2 Leichter, are you unaware that New York City is
3 reputed to be the world's largest slumlord, and
4 the way they got that property is because people
5 did not pay sufficient rent for the maintenance
6 of the property?
7 Otherwise, why would a landlord
8 with all these protections which you say are out
9 there, and all these privileges, why would he
10 walk away from a property that he paid good
11 money for? Because it's uneconomic, because the
12 combination of rent control and Housing Court
13 shenanigans preclude him from making a return on
14 his investment, even maintaining it, and then
15 the City takes it over and makes a bigger mess.
16 Now, why would a landlord abandon
17 that if he's got all these rights and privileges
18 and making all this money? Can you explain
19 that?
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Senator,
21 there is a very simple explanation. If you know
22 New York City and you know the situation that
23 exists there, and I -- and I say -- again, you
8826
1 represent, you know, areas in Long Island where
2 you don't deal with these problems. I'm going
3 to invite you to New York City as my guest and
4 take you around and meet some tenants and give
5 you an understanding of this, Senator, because,
6 with all due respect, you're working sort of off
7 an Adam Smith logic. Well, the landlords paid
8 good money.
9 Do you know what happens? People
10 buy buildings on speculation, Senator. They are
11 trying to leverage a very, very small amount of
12 equity. They then go and milk the buildings,
13 not all landlords, not every case, but many of
14 the buildings that have been abandoned, which
15 the City then has to take over because the
16 landlord doesn't pay the taxes; and after a
17 while, the City has to take over the property in
18 rem. By that time, the building is in such
19 deteriorated state that the rent roll doesn't
20 cover the repair and the maintenance and all the
21 work that has to be done, and that's why the
22 building eventually ends up being abandoned,
23 because conditions are so terrible in there that
8827
1 tenants just have to move out.
2 But a lot of that is due because
3 landlords buy buildings -- do you know what they
4 pay for it in some instances? $1,000, $2,000.
5 They don't pay good money.
6 And, again, we're talking a small
7 proportion of landlords but that exists,
8 Senator, and that's why you have cases -- I can
9 cite some to you where landlords end up in jail,
10 end up in jail because they have milked their
11 properties, and that's what happens in the
12 abandonment of buildings.
13 SENATOR JOHNSON: Well, Senator,
14 I think it's time for us to get rid of the far
15 right Republican rhetoric which emanates on that
16 side of the aisle and wake up and see what's
17 really going on. Everyone knows what goes on in
18 the Housing Court.
19 They know it's a scandal. They
20 know that, when someone tries to collect the
21 rent, you get adjournment after adjournment
22 after adjournment until the landlord finally
23 says, "Just get out and I won't even bother with
8828
1 the rent," and they walk away without paying the
2 rent. It's a scheme to defraud the landlords,
3 and everyone in that building and everyone in
4 that City loses by this, and I don't know why
5 you don't recognize it, Senator.
6 If the government didn't
7 interfere in the right of contract, you would
8 have buildings well maintained, getting proper
9 market rent which could maintain it. There
10 would be growth. There would be increased tax
11 revenues, and the city of New York has asked
12 everyone in the state to help contribute to
13 their rent control programs and the Housing
14 Court program. Everyone is paying for the
15 losses which you want to permit the tenant to
16 continue.
17 And, Senator, I don't know if you
18 can answer this or not, but you not only object
19 to them posting the back due rent but you even
20 object to them paying the rent to the judge
21 during the pendency of this case so, ultimately,
22 there's some money there to recover, because, in
23 many cases, no money is recovered and the
8829
1 tenants are out anyhow. Would you object to
2 them posting the rent due while they have the
3 three- or four- or five-month adjournment, or do
4 you think they should live rent free all during
5 that time?
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
7 answering Senator Johnson.
8 First of all, the court now has
9 the power to do this, Senator Johnson. The
10 court has the power to do this.
11 But, secondly, Senator, the whole
12 issue is, was the rent due? I have handled
13 situations on behalf of my constituents where
14 the landlord will bring an action for rent due.
15 Tenant comes to me and says, "Here. I got a
16 receipt. I've got a receipt." So we go to
17 court and we say, "There is a receipt."
18 Landlord says, "Well, my agent didn't have the
19 authority. He didn't have the right to issue
20 that receipt. I never got the money."
21 Now, that's something that's got
22 to be tried in court. It has to be disposed
23 of. It's an issue of fact, and I must tell you,
8830
1 in those cases, we prevailed. But if the tenant
2 had had to put up the money in advance, having
3 already paid the rent -- the tenant has paid the
4 rent, but until that's resolved in court, the
5 landlord maintains, "I'm entitled to it." What
6 you are trying to do is, in effect, almost
7 prejudge the case where the landlord by saying,
8 "I'm entitled to the rent," can force the
9 tenant to put up the money.
10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
11 I would like to ask Senator Leichter if he would
12 respond to another question -- in fact, answer
13 the question that I have asked him.
14 You think -- I asked you, before,
15 do you think someone should be able to live rent
16 free in your building or anyone's building?
17 And, number two, do you have any
18 objection to them paying the rent during the
19 pendency of this trial for any new occupancy
20 beyond the date?
21 And, number three, we know that
22 the court has the power to do this now, to
23 require it, but the court doesn't do it because
8831
1 they are sort of complicitous with the tenants
2 in this whole scenario, and it's -- it's an open
3 secret. I just got two newspaper articles here,
4 but I mean I'm surprised you haven't read it.
5 It's your paper, the New York Times, and they
6 tell about all the scandals and abuse in the New
7 York City Housing Court, and yet you're totally
8 oblivious of it, giving us this Marxist rhetoric
9 about everybody is entitled to live somewhere at
10 somebody's else's expense.
11 I mean, Senator, I just want to
12 know why a tenant should not pay whatever the
13 court agrees. If he's got a receipt he paid it,
14 the court wouldn't ask. Why shouldn't he post
15 the back rent? Why shouldn't he pay rent during
16 the pendency so that this doesn't continue month
17 after month living at the expense of the
18 landlord and everyone else in that process?
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
20 Johnson, you said something which is the key.
21 You said "the court agrees." "The court
22 agrees," which means that there has been a
23 determination made, an adjudication of the
8832
1 dispute. For instance, the case that I gave you
2 which I tried in court on behalf of a
3 constituent, where the landlord said, "I didn't
4 get the rent; the receipt you have is invalid,"
5 and the matter was finally adjudicated by the
6 court. So the whole issue is that you -- you
7 say, "amounts that are due," but they are not
8 due until the court determines that they are
9 due.
10 Let me ask you a question,
11 Senator Johnson. Will you yield?
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Have you ever
14 been to Housing Court -
15 SENATOR JOHNSON: I have -
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- in the City
17 of New York?
18 SENATOR JOHNSON: I have read
19 about it. I have seen some scenarios. I have
20 talked to a tenant who went through it. He told
21 me what a great deal it was in New York City;
22 that he lived eleven months after he put his
23 security deposit up without paying a penny rent,
8833
1 and he was going to do it in Suffolk County. He
2 found out we have a different law in Suffolk
3 County, and he only got away with three or four
4 months, but it was a very interesting discussion
5 I had with him.
6 So he told me it's all right.
7 They give you the lawyers to represent you.
8 They give you the whole thing, and you can just
9 not pay. You can stretch it out almost as long
10 as you want. He said eleven months. The
11 average -- I read the statistics -- is only
12 seven months.
13 But whatever it is, I think
14 government should not interfere in the
15 contractual arrangements between two parties.
16 If you got a lease, and he's got to provide a
17 place for you to live and you got to pay the
18 rent, both parties should fulfill their
19 obligations.
20 Now, most of these cases are not
21 filed until two or three months' rent are gone
22 by. I mean they've already gotten by with a
23 substantial amount. I don't see why you should
8834
1 possibly object to future rents being posted
2 with the judge during the pendency of this claim
3 so that the debt does not increase further
4 beyond the ability of the tenant, ultimately, to
5 ever pay that rent.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
7 if Senator Johnson will continue to yield?
8 Senator, would you be in favor
9 that where consumers are being sued, let's say,
10 by an automobile company for not having paid on
11 a lease of an automobile or having made payments
12 on the purchase of an automobile or any other
13 appliance, that the consumer before he or she
14 can challenge the lawsuit have to put up their
15 money in advance in court? Would you be in
16 favor of this?
17 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I'm
18 not speculating about what I would do in that
19 case. The simple fact is that New York City's
20 housing stock is deteriorating, continuing to
21 deteriorate. The reason is because of the
22 governmental policies in New York City
23 concerning rent control and Housing Court, and
8835
1 these problems must be addressed if New York
2 City is going to have an economic revival,
3 resurgence, and we have an obligation to see
4 that that happens, and this type of reform is
5 vitally necessary to bring about that result.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
7 just in conclusion, and I always enjoy a chance
8 to have this sort of a dialogue with my good
9 friend from Long Island; but, Senator, I'm doing
10 to do something for you, if you are willing.
11 Rather than just relying on
12 reading things -- and you and I know that there
13 is no substitute for seeing a situation yourself
14 -- I'm going to invite you to come down to the
15 Housing Court in New York County or Kings
16 County, somewhere else, and take a look. Meet
17 some of the Housing Court judges, speak to the
18 lawyers. Get firsthand experience, and I think
19 that you will see that what is being proposed
20 here by Senator Leibell is based in large
21 measure on myth and is certainly unfair.
22 You are singling out tenants in
23 the city of New York and imposing on them a
8836
1 requirement that no other litigant has, which
2 is, ante up the money in advance if you want
3 your case tried in court.
4 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
6 recognizes Senator Solomon.
7 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you, Mr.
8 President.
9 Mr. President, will Senator
10 Leibell yield?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Leibell, do you yield to Senator Solomon?
13 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 yields.
16 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, I'm
17 going to try and relate a number of cases that
18 I've represented because I have practiced in
19 Housing Court before; and, first of all, let me
20 say something.
21 Many of the landlords that want
22 this bill will tell you that they will never use
23 it, because putting the money into Housing Court
8837
1 is their worst fear because they will never get
2 it out because of the clerk problem.
3 But just a couple of items.
4 Senator, are you aware of how a large
5 preponderance of the rent is paid currently by
6 tenants to many of the landlords in Housing
7 Court via money order -- not via Housing Court
8 but rent payments done by money order.
9 SENATOR LEIBELL: In New York
10 City?
11 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes.
12 SENATOR LEIBELL: No, I'm not.
13 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, during
14 your investigations in this, did you come across
15 the point in situations -- we've had many
16 situations. What happens in a situation as
17 Senator Leichter outlined where the money order
18 has been paid and given to the landlord and, for
19 whatever reason, that landlord has not cashed
20 that money order as of yet, and then commences
21 an action against the tenant? That is a common
22 procedure, by the way, in holdover actions.
23 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, let me
8838
1 just draw your attention to line 22 of the bill,
2 which I hope addresses your concern. "The court
3 shall dismiss without prejudice the defenses and
4 counterclaims -- I'm sorry. "...payment shows
5 by a preponderance of the evidence that the
6 amount required to be deposited has previously
7 been paid to the petitioner." Do you see the
8 section I'm referring to?
9 SENATOR SOLOMON: Line 25, "...
10 presents payment and shows by a preponderance of
11 the evidence..."
12 Well, Senator, let me ask you
13 another question. Would presentment of a money
14 order receipt by the tenant, a carbon copy, be
15 considered preponderance of evidence in terms of
16 your legislative intent?
17 SENATOR LEIBELL: It would always
18 be up to the court, but I would say so.
19 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay. Thank
20 you. Senator, let me ask you another question.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
23 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
8839
1 President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 continues to yield.
4 SENATOR SOLOMON: Are you
5 familiar with a holdover proceeding and how a
6 holdover proceeding is commenced?
7 SENATOR LEIBELL: I have some
8 knowledge of it, yes, not in depth.
9 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, does
10 not a holdover proceeding usually commence in
11 the fact that the tenant pays the rent to the
12 landlord and the landlord is advised by counsel
13 not to cash that check and/or money order?
14 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, maybe
15 you can rephrase the question. I'm not sure how
16 that relates to the bill.
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, in a
18 holdover proceeding, under the laws of this
19 state in order to commence that proceeding, the
20 landlord is not to cash that check or advised
21 not to cash that monthly check. So if the rent
22 is paid January 1, Landlord Jones is told by his
23 attorney you have gotten the rent on January 1
8840
1 by the tenant, do not cash that check because
2 then the tenant becomes a month-to-month
3 tenant. So Landlord Jones has that check or
4 that money order -- let's say a money order, in
5 his hands and a holdover proceeding commences,
6 and February comes -- and February comes, and
7 the landlord commences the holdover proceeding
8 30 days afterwards, which would be in February,
9 and the February rent is paid by money order to
10 Landlord Jones, so he now has two months; and
11 now Landlord Jones commences that holdover
12 proceeding after the February rent is due. He's
13 got two months' payment, and he commences a
14 holdover proceeding against Tenant Smith.
15 Tenant Smith asked for an adjournment. Landlord
16 Jones is then going to say, "Put your money into
17 escrow"; isn't that correct?
18 SENATOR LEIBELL: That's a
19 separate action. Go back to what this bill is
20 about. This is a summary proceeding.
21 SENATOR SOLOMON: All right.
22 Then let me ask you another question.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8841
1 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
3 SENATOR SOLOMON: Will you
4 yield?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Senator yields.
7 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, in an
8 actual case, in a case such as this, if the
9 respondent is represented by an attorney and
10 that rent is held in an attorney's escrow
11 account, can these provisions be waived?
12 SENATOR LEIBELL: No. It has to
13 be paid into court.
14 SENATOR SOLOMON: It has to be
15 paid into court?
16 SENATOR LEIBELL: That's -
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, this
18 is an actual case where I represented the
19 tenants. The good landlord believed that
20 elevator service wasn't necessary, and I had a
21 client whose son was disabled in a wheelchair.
22 Does the court have the power to order monies to
23 be expended for repairs and/or emergency repairs
8842
1 out of the money that's been deposited in
2 court?
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, they
4 would.
5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Can you show me
6 where that is in this bill?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Solomon on the bill.
9 SENATOR SOLOMON: Uh, no.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
12 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator Leibell
13 is going to respond.
14 SENATOR LEIBELL: That's already
15 in statute, Senator.
16 SENATOR SOLOMON: Not under this
17 bill.
18 SENATOR LEIBELL: It's already in
19 statute in other legislation.
20 SENATOR SOLOMON: I think that if
21 you look at where the money is supposed to go
22 for, though, under this legislation, it can only
23 go to the petitioner. That's why I'm raising
8843
1 that point, Senator.
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, if you
3 could draw your attention to lines 7 through 13
4 which addresses emergency repairs, and that's
5 already existing law.
6 SENATOR SOLOMON: Okay, Senator,
7 so under this legislation, just to make it
8 perfectly clear, the court has the authority to
9 say that the following rent money shall be used
10 for emergency repairs?
11 SENATOR LEIBELL: That's existing
12 law already, Senator.
13 SENATOR SOLOMON: And it would
14 continue to exist here?
15 SENATOR LEIBELL: All that we're
16 looking to do here is to make sure that that
17 rent will be payable into court. That's what
18 this bill before the house today attempts to
19 address.
20 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, lines
21 28 to 33, it talks about future rents due on the
22 due date; correct?
23 SENATOR LEIBELL: M-m h-m-m.
8844
1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Line 30
2 actually. So if we're in court and there have
3 been two adjournments -- we're in court February
4 15 and we come up to March 1 and there's a new
5 rent due, the tenant has to deposit that rent
6 due on March 1; correct?
7 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
8 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, is
9 there a grace period?
10 SENATOR LEIBELL: None.
11 SENATOR SOLOMON: So, Senator -
12 if Senator Leibell will yield.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
15 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
16 President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 continues to yield.
19 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, as I
20 understand, January 1 is a legal holiday and the
21 court systems are closed in the State of New
22 York. Is that correct?
23 SENATOR LEIBELL: On January 1?
8845
1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes.
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: I believe
3 that's correct.
4 SENATOR SOLOMON: So, Senator, if
5 the rent is due on January 1st and it's not
6 paid, what are the consequences, since there is
7 no grace period?
8 SENATOR LEIBELL: I think you
9 would refer to the General Construction Law
10 which would control that occurrence.
11 SENATOR SOLOMON: Does Senator
12 Leibell continue to yield?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Leibell? Continues to yield.
15 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, have
16 you examined the general lease forms issued in
17 the City of New York? Is not there a grace
18 period in that lease form or in the General
19 Construction Law for payment of rent?
20 SENATOR LEIBELL: Not today, I
21 haven't.
22 SENATOR SOLOMON: Well, last time
23 you examined it, was there a grace period of any
8846
1 sort?
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: This is a
3 summary proceeding for payment of rent. We're
4 not talking about grace periods.
5 SENATOR SOLOMON: So if Mrs.
6 Jones is a senior citizen and she's hospitalized
7 and she's in the hospital and the case was
8 adjourned twice, Mrs. Jones would have to pay
9 that rent, then, even though she might be in the
10 hospital; correct?
11 SENATOR LEIBELL: It would go to
12 an immediate hearing.
13 SENATOR SOLOMON: But the rent
14 would be due; correct?
15 SENATOR LEIBELL: The rent would
16 be due as it would normally.
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: By the
18 immediate hearing, correct. There is no
19 discretion in this bill for the court, is there,
20 Senator?
21 SENATOR LEIBELL: The rent would
22 be payable into court.
23 SENATOR SOLOMON: But there is no
8847
1 court discretion on that?
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: (There was no
3 response.)
4 SENATOR SOLOMON: Technically if
5 something happened in the court building in and
6 of itself there is no discretion for the court
7 to say, "I'm going to say that all these rents
8 are due two weeks from now." I'm trying to deal
9 with the realities of implementing this
10 legislation.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Skelos.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: If I could just
15 interrupt for a moment and have the last section
16 read for the purposes of Senator Trunzo voting.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Ask the
18 Secretary to read the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
20 act shall take effect on the 30th day.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8848
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Trunzo, how do you vote?
3 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Trunzo will be recorded in the affirmative. The
6 roll call will be withdrawn.
7 Senator Solomon, you have the
8 floor.
9 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you,
10 Senator. I'm waiting for a response from
11 Senator Leibell.
12 SENATOR LEIBELL: The court would
13 have its normal discretion.
14 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, so if
15 you could -- you state that the court would have
16 some discretion to implement parts of this
17 legislation, as a legislative intent?
18 SENATOR LEIBELL: That's correct.
19 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator Leibell
20 -- Mr. President, if Senator Leibell will
21 continue to yield?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
8849
1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, what
3 happens if there is a judgment and then there is
4 a notice of appeal filed, which there is done in
5 summary proceedings?
6 SENATOR LEIBELL: It would still
7 be paid in court pending appeal.
8 SENATOR SOLOMON: Into which
9 court, Senator?
10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Housing Court.
11 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, what
12 happens if there is a judgment you pay for the
13 tenant and then there is a notice of appeal
14 filed?
15 SENATOR LEIBELL: They'd get
16 their money back. If -
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: I understand in
18 cases technically continuing. Is the tenant
19 going to be required to pay that money into -
20 is the tenant going to get the money back
21 immediately or is it going to stay in court?
22 SENATOR LEIBELL: Do you mean
23 after an appeal is decided?
8850
1 SENATOR SOLOMON: No, an appeal
2 is filed.
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: You are saying
4 if the -
5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Excuse me. Mr.
6 President, if I can rephrase the question?
7 SENATOR LEIBELL: Okay.
8 SENATOR SOLOMON: The landlord
9 serves Tenant Smith five months back rent. The
10 tenant interposes a defense of warranty of
11 habitability. The elevator didn't work. Trial
12 is held. The tenant prevails. The court gives
13 a decision which in many cases happens in
14 landlord-tenant court and says, "I find the
15 elevator equals 50 percent of the rent paid."
16 The tenant prevails, and an appeal is filed.
17 SENATOR LEIBELL: I have been
18 advised the court would have to pay the money
19 back to the tenant immediately.
20 SENATOR SOLOMON: Thank you.
21 Mr. President, will Senator
22 Leibell continue to yield?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8851
1 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
3 President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 continues to yield.
6 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator,
7 there's one thing that concerns me. In fact, a
8 constituent of mine who was a landlord contacted
9 me two days ago on this type of matter. He is
10 coming and taking over a building he purchased
11 at auction, and there is an issue before DHCR on
12 back rent, and that issue is being determined.
13 What happens -- it's a rent overcharge.
14 What happens if there is an issue
15 as of a rent overcharge that is being determined
16 by DHCR, an administrative agency of the state,
17 and the landlord sues for the -- sues for an
18 amount? How is that -- how is that worked into
19 this legislation?
20 SENATOR LEIBELL: This is a
21 summary proceeding -
22 SENATOR SOLOMON: Right.
23 SENATOR LEIBELL: -- for
8852
1 nonpayment.
2 SENATOR SOLOMON: Correct.
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: -- in which the
4 tenant -- in this case, would be that the tenant
5 has not paid for a substantial period of time.
6 SENATOR SOLOMON: But, Senator,
7 let me again try and rephrase it and your
8 counsel can maybe come up with the proper
9 answer. Landlord Jones claims that $1,000 is
10 due per month on the apartment. Tenant Smith
11 had alleged two years ago that there is an
12 overcharge in that calculation and $1,000 is, in
13 fact, not the proper rent but $700 is the proper
14 rent. That is being decided by DHCR, but
15 Landlord Jones sues for $1,000.
16 What, in fact, is the rent to be
17 deposited in court?
18 And the court is sitting there -
19 and the court is in a situation saying, "I don't
20 know what the proper rent is; maybe it's $700;
21 maybe it's $1,000," and there are cases where
22 there are substantial differences in the amount
23 claimed by the landlord and the amount claimed
8853
1 by the tenant which would be subject to
2 rollback. I'm just trying to get to the
3 situation.
4 SENATOR LEIBELL: The rent is
5 going to be specified in the lease. That is the
6 legal rent. See, distinguish here, Senator -
7 SENATOR SOLOMON: The legal rent
8 is the rent in the lease?
9 SENATOR LEIBELL: That's correct.
10 SENATOR SOLOMON: Even if DHCR
11 has already come out with an administrative
12 ruling?
13 SENATOR LEIBELL: They are two
14 separate -- these are two separate proceedings.
15 SENATOR SOLOMON: There may -- if
16 Senator Leibell will yield?
17 Senator, what happens if there
18 has been a DHCR determination and there is an
19 administrative process at DHCR which has said
20 that the rent in the lease as $1,000 is not the
21 correct rent but the correct rent is $823.47?
22 SENATOR LEIBELL: Do you mean
23 where DHCR has made a ruling?
8854
1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Right.
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: Then they would
3 raise that. Then the tenant would raise that in
4 the summary proceeding.
5 SENATOR SOLOMON: But what is the
6 amount to be paid into court?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
9 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
10 President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 continues to yield.
13 SENATOR LEIBELL: If there is a
14 legitimate legal adjudication that the rent is
15 different from the lease, then the difference
16 would be what would be paid in under this
17 summary proceeding.
18 SENATOR SOLOMON: The difference
19 between what the landlord is alleging and what
20 the DHCR has said is due?
21 SENATOR LEIBELL: That's correct.
22 SENATOR SOLOMON: So the tenant
23 would be required to pay the amount that -- DHCR
8855
1 said there was -- the rent is $825, and the
2 landlord claims it was $1,000. The tenant would
3 be required to pay in the difference?
4 SENATOR LEIBELL: If you have a
5 finding -- if you had a finding, that's what the
6 court would take notice of.
7 SENATOR SOLOMON: The DHCR
8 finding.
9 SENATOR LEIBELL: That is
10 correct.
11 SENATOR SOLOMON: All right,
12 Senator. So I just want to -- I would like to
13 clarify one last point -
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Do you
15 continue to yield, Senator Leibell?
16 SENATOR SOLOMON: -- if Senator
17 Leibell will yield?
18 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 yields.
21 SENATOR SOLOMON: This section of
22 law is only to apply in summary nonpayment
23 proceedings -- not holdover proceedings, not
8856
1 tenant-initiated actions, only summary
2 nonpayment proceedings?
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: That's correct.
4 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator Leibell
5 yield for one question?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
8 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 Senator continues to yield.
11 SENATOR SOLOMON: If the
12 petitioner adjourns the case three times, what
13 penalty, if any, does the petitioner have to
14 pay?
15 SENATOR LEIBELL: There is none.
16 But I will tell you, it's very unlikely when the
17 person -- the landlord is not being paid rent,
18 they have every impetus to go out there and get
19 the rent in.
20 SENATOR SOLOMON: On the bill.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Solomon, on the bill.
23 SENATOR SOLOMON: My good friend
8857
1 Senator Leibell is carrying this legislation,
2 and I have been in Housing Court as Senator
3 Leichter said, and I would like to inform a
4 number of my colleagues here that, in fact, in
5 many instances, the petitioner adjourns the
6 case, and if you saw the way Housing Court
7 worked, you would know why the petitioner
8 adjourned the case.
9 In many instances, the
10 petitioner's attorney does not have the papers.
11 In many instances, the petitioner's agent is not
12 in court or the petitioner's agent is running
13 around to four or five different parts in
14 Housing Court, and it's not uncommon for them to
15 adjourn those cases as a matter of course.
16 In addition, if you have been in
17 Housing Court before and you have seen the way
18 Housing Court works, there are many instances
19 where there are, in fact, violations, rent
20 impairing violations, which the laws say that
21 the rent cannot be paid or collected or sued for
22 by the landlord as long as those violations
23 exist.
8858
1 In effect, this bill really
2 skirts that issue. It says you have to pay that
3 rent into court. There is a whole list of "C"
4 violations which are rent impairing violations,
5 which are issues outside of the warranty of
6 habitability which, under the laws of the city
7 of New York, the rent is not to be paid to the
8 landlord on those "C" violations, where they are
9 to be repaired within 27 hours and, in fact,
10 they are not repaired.
11 What this bill is doing -- and
12 you are going to find out, by the way, in fact a
13 large number of landlords are not going to use
14 this bill because they know for a fact they'll
15 never get their money out of court and, if you
16 talk to attorneys that represent landlords,
17 they're going to laugh at this. They're going
18 to say they don't want to apply this in most
19 cases because they can't get their money out of
20 courts. In fact, they prefer that, if there is
21 a rent action, that the attorney has the money
22 in his escrow account or they prefer the fact
23 that there are money orders made out to the
8859
1 individual tenants which the attorney is
2 holding.
3 This is a bill which is, in fact,
4 going to cost the courts of the city of New York
5 huge sums of money and, in reality, is not
6 applicable to the situations and where you have
7 due dates where there is no grace period, where
8 you're saying apply the General Construction
9 Law, you are going to find a general disaster is
10 going to occur in that court system.
11 You have a piece of legislation
12 that, as Senator Leichter appropriately said, we
13 are going to have certain unscrupulous landlords
14 and their attorneys attempting to use this leg
15 islation to get tenants out. We have attorneys,
16 we have landlords, who, in many cases where they
17 are attempting to do illegal evictions, will
18 hold those money orders and not cash those money
19 orders. We have landlords, smaller landlords in
20 many instances, who flagrantly violate the law
21 and don't give receipts for the cash payments,
22 because they are such law-abiding citizens that
23 they don't want to report that cash as their
8860
1 income.
2 And I think what you are doing is
3 telling the judges in Housing Court and/or the
4 Civil Court judges that hear these cases in many
5 instances, "We don't trust your discretion. We
6 don't trust your discretion to tell somebody
7 whether or not to pay that rent into court."
8 And what you are going to find
9 out is that, if this becomes law, you are going
10 to have those small landlords who thought this
11 was going to be their panacea coming back to you
12 saying, "You know, Senator, we can't get our
13 money out of court. We can't get that rent out
14 of court. It's taken us six months." So you've
15 got a piece of legislation which takes away
16 discretion, a piece of legislation which is not
17 going to help the process, and I think it's a
18 piece of legislation that's not fair.
19 You can draw up a piece of
20 legislation that has money deposited in court.
21 You can allow the petitioner to show good cause
22 why that should be deposited on the court and
23 can have an immediate hearing to allow the judge
8861
1 to make that decision or even allow the judge to
2 make a decision to order that money to be held
3 in an attorney's escrow account, which will
4 expedite the situation and take it out of the
5 process of the courts. But I think this piece
6 of legislation, the way it's drafted, is going
7 to cause major problems. Not only is it unfair
8 to tenants but it's going to cause major
9 problems for a lot of the people that have
10 experience in this court system and are thinking
11 it's a panacea and, in fact, are going find out
12 in reality it's not.
13 And, yes, there are those
14 stories, and I can tell you stories about the
15 landlord who wouldn't provide elevator service
16 or wouldn't hire an elevator service and the
17 judge had to come into that building and
18 actually saw that situation, and the action went
19 on for a year and a half and there were
20 structured rebates to the tenants, including the
21 one -- this woman who had a son in a wheelchair,
22 six flights of stairs, a landlord who refused to
23 hire an attorney until she started going on
8862
1 appeals. The landlord, while she was reading
2 the financial pages of the New York Times in the
3 judge's chamber, said she didn't understand the
4 finances of her building.
5 There are horror stories on both
6 sides. But the fact of the matter is if you
7 have been into Housing Court on a regular basis
8 and gone with some of the attorneys who
9 practiced both on landlord and tenant side, you
10 will see a situation that this bill is not going
11 to solve. It's going to compound it, and the
12 small landlords who think they are going to
13 benefit from this are going to be the ones who
14 find out that they can't get their money out of
15 court, just as some of the larger landlords say,
16 "No, no, no, don't take the tenant's money and
17 put it into court. It's the worst thing that's
18 going to happen to me."
19 And I really think this is a bill
20 where it's been put forward, some people are
21 carrying this bill, but, in fact, they really
22 haven't gone in there and spent the week in that
23 court and taken a look at how the process really
8863
1 works in that court.
2 This is a court that's so
3 strapped for funds, ladies and gentlemen, that
4 at a point in time a number of years ago when we
5 had Chief Judge Cooke, I pointed out to him that
6 the way they called the calendar was an actual
7 fire hazard, where both tenants and landlords
8 were shepherded to one part of the building
9 which had only one entrance and exit, the same
10 way, and the calendar would be called once. If
11 they answered the calendar and said they were
12 there, they'd have to go to another part. If
13 they went to the bathroom and the court officer
14 said, "It's in Part 15 on the fourth floor, Room
15 327," they would miss it and be out. It's
16 strapped for cash, that part of the court
17 system, and this is not going to help it. It's
18 going to cost more money and result in more
19 turmoil and an unfair piece of legislation.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
21 recognizes Senator Abate.
22 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, Mr.
23 President. Would Senator Leibell yield?
8864
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Leibell, do you yield?
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 yields.
6 SENATOR ABATE: Senator Leibell,
7 I'm still trying to understand the rationale and
8 need for this legislation, whether one is a pro
9 tenant or pro-landlord advocate, neither groups
10 or advocates condone abuses on either side.
11 SENATOR LEIBELL: Right.
12 SENATOR ABATE: But what I don't
13 understand is why is there a need to amend and
14 provide an automatic mandatory provision for the
15 rent escrow deposits when the judge already has
16 the discretion? And now this is the judge who
17 has before them both litigants, has the
18 opportunity to evaluate the facts before him or
19 her. Why is there a need to take the discretion
20 away from the judge in order to protect
21 landlords?
22 SENATOR LEIBELL: Well, as a
23 practical matter, Senator, my understanding is
8865
1 that when given discretion the court almost
2 never exercises it. It was felt that this would
3 offer a procedure whereby we could attempt to
4 bring some sense of fairness, and probably
5 that's the key word here.
6 This is not a question of -
7 certainly not for the sponsor -- of being pro
8 landlord or pro-tenant. What we were trying to
9 do here is to identify a problem, what is a very
10 severe problem, and there could be some
11 disagreement as to the magnitude of the problem,
12 but most people, I think, would concede that
13 there is a great deal of money that is lost to
14 landlords because of some tenants, some -- a
15 substantial number of tenants who use the court
16 system in order to defeat the landlords and
17 their right to having a rent.
18 Now, the comment was made by my
19 friend Marty Solomon that this, in fact, would
20 not be good for New York City. Well, in fact, I
21 have here a memorandum in support from New York
22 City, and the reasons for support -- there's one
23 sentence that says, "For many owners,
8866
1 particularly those operating on the margin, the
2 inability to collect these rents can be the
3 difference between economic survival and
4 failure."
5 One of the things that's
6 concerned me so greatly, and I hope to have an
7 opportunity to even spend more time examining
8 the problem after we recess, is the problem of
9 housing in New York City, and it certainly is a
10 very easy thing from a political point of view
11 to say there are landlords out there and that's
12 some sort of monster, and it's a horrible thing
13 to be a landlord. But, in fact, they provide
14 countless many thousands of units of housing for
15 residents of New York City and in so many cases,
16 we're not talking about some large, monolithic
17 corporate landlord. We're talking about smaller
18 landlords, people who their only source of
19 income is the rent they generate off that
20 building, in addition to which their capacity to
21 maintain those buildings is severely impacted by
22 those people who do -- for one reason or
23 another, do not legitimately pay the rent that's
8867
1 owed.
2 That's the purpose behind this
3 bill.
4 SENATOR ABATE: I guess what I'm
5 very concerned about, what we are saying as a
6 legislature, that there are judges appointed or
7 elected to the Housing Court and we do not trust
8 them to do the right thing to ensure that
9 landlords are not mistreated or tenants are not
10 mistreated, and what we're, in fact, doing is
11 stacking the deck that in all situations, even
12 if it's not treating an individual case and an
13 individual tenant fairly, we are saying, "Across
14 the board in every case, we're mandating the
15 escrow accounts of rent deposits." Isn't there
16 something absolutely unfair about that concept?
17 SENATOR LEIBELL: Not when you
18 consider -- if you go back to the language that
19 I originally read, that this bill only becomes
20 effective, this law, if it becomes law, upon a
21 second adjournment. So you could have had -- in
22 the first place, you could have had a period of
23 -- a substantial period of months here where
8868
1 there's been no payment of rent, and that is the
2 problem that we're trying to address by this
3 bill.
4 SENATOR ABATE: But I would go
5 back to that second adjournment. We all could
6 concede the first adjournment could occur
7 because the attorney on either side wasn't
8 prepared or the papers weren't there or the
9 witnesses or the court may decide because of the
10 lateness of the hour the case has to be
11 adjourned, or the tenant comes into court and
12 says, "I need a counsel. I barely speak
13 English. I don't understand the law."
14 Having something as arbitrary
15 kicking in the second adjournment when there may
16 be legitimate reasons on the part of either the
17 court to adjourn it or the tenant to adjourn it,
18 we're saying automatically now these monies have
19 to be placed in escrow. It seems to me that's
20 very arbitrary, the second adjournment. Let me
21 get back -- I'm sure you disagree.
22 Let me get back to the issue in
23 fairness to landlords. It's my understanding
8869
1 this legislation was either enacted or amended
2 in 1983 to require the judge to put on the
3 record why deposits for future rents are not
4 ordered. It basically says to the judge, "Look,
5 the Legislature is saying to you, Judge, we're
6 looking out for the interest of landlords. You
7 can not just arbitrarily without any reason not
8 deposit these rents in escrows. We want you to
9 take that as a precaution in order to protect
10 landlords, to state it on the record."
11 It seems to me this Legislature
12 has gone -- taken another step. Again, we don't
13 want to see landlords with hardships. Certainly
14 conditions for certain small landlords who
15 have -- basically, live in small homes. They
16 rent out two or three apartments within their
17 dwellings. They are just surviving, too.
18 Obviously, there are some cases of inequities,
19 but I don't want to see a piece of legislation
20 that tips the scales so far in favor of one
21 group against another.
22 I guess what I'm suggesting -
23 the law already requires or gives the right to a
8870
1 landlord to appeal that decision if a judge does
2 not order those rent deposits in escrows. Why
3 now do we need additional protections beyond
4 what is in law?
5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, this
6 is not a situation -- I don't want to mis
7 characterize how you are stating it, but this is
8 not a random event where a tenant does not pay
9 rent. It is not an infrequent event. In fact,
10 as Senator Johnson noted earlier, and I have
11 noted previously, earlier in the discussion,
12 there are literally tens of thousands of cases
13 that are occurring every year, where tenants are
14 failing to pay rent to the property owners.
15 There is a failure for the landlord then to have
16 many tens of millions of dollars in rent coming
17 in. We are increasing dramatically the chance
18 of an already marginal housing supply becoming a
19 less acceptable housing supply, increasing the
20 chance of abandonment.
21 This legislation is certainly not
22 frivolous and was not brought here without a
23 great deal of consideration as to how to try and
8871
1 address this problem. The discretion you are
2 talking about from the courts, the Housing
3 Courts, we still have this problem here, and
4 this is a problem that is not getting better.
5 It is getting substantially worse; and in a
6 different bill at a different time and possibly
7 in a different forum, without question, you
8 would probably be saying to me, "My colleague,
9 what are we going to do to preserve the housing
10 supply in New York City? It's deteriorating
11 rapidly." That's why New York City gave us this
12 memorandum, and that's why this bill is before
13 the house today for consideration.
14 SENATOR ABATE: Would Senator
15 Leibell continue to yield, Mr. President; would
16 he continue to yield?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
19 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
20 President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Senator continues to yield.
23 SENATOR ABATE: I'm trying to
8872
1 understand how this would occur, whether there
2 be a hearing or whether there would be an
3 automatic deposit.
4 I'm a tenant. It is now January,
5 February. It's very cold. I've gone to my
6 landlord along with other tenants asking the
7 landlord to correct the heating system, and it's
8 not done, so I, as a tenant, along with other
9 tenants repair the system, and we're in court.
10 We haven't paid rent. We believe
11 there should be rent abatement as a result of
12 the monies that we put in to make these repairs.
13 As a tenant, would I still be compelled to put
14 future and past rent into escrow or would there
15 be a hearing held first on my defense?
16 SENATOR LEIBELL: You would put
17 your money into the court as this bill provides
18 for, into the Housing Court. If, in fact, you
19 had another proceeding which indicated that and
20 there had been an adjudication that the rent
21 should be mitigated, that would impact on this.
22 SENATOR ABATE: See, that is the
23 very example upon which I think this legislation
8873
1 is patently unfair to tenants, because in that
2 situation, the landlord did not live up to their
3 responsibilities. I as a tenant am forced to
4 put money out for repairs so that that apartment
5 could be habitable for me and my children or
6 whoever else resides, yet then I'm forced to
7 look elsewhere, to savings, to borrow monies, in
8 order to remain in my apartment to put those
9 monies in escrow, while I've put out of another
10 pocket money for repairs.
11 That's a situation I go back to.
12 We have to rely on the law of the land and our
13 Judiciary to make sure they correct inequities.
14 By making this mandatory across the board, we
15 only produce a system that is unfair. It may be
16 unfair to landlords or tenants, and I don't
17 believe that's the proper way to go.
18 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, let me
19 refer you to the bill again on page 2, line 9
20 through 13, which addresses the -- which is
21 existing law, and it's not been changed.
22 SENATOR ABATE: But you would
23 agree that the question I posed, if I as a
8874
1 tenant put out of my own pocket some monies to
2 make my apartment habitable, I would still in
3 that instance have to put money into escrow
4 while I litigate the second issue for rent
5 abatement?
6 SENATOR LEIBELL: The court still
7 has the authority to take notice over that.
8 SENATOR ABATE: But if you said
9 the court did not have authority in the first
10 instance, was not acting properly, why are they
11 going to act properly in this instance?
12 SENATOR LEIBELL: As a
13 practical -
14 SENATOR ABATE: You either
15 believe in the court and the powers of the court
16 and their ability to carry out their discretion
17 in a fair and equitable manner or we, as
18 legislators, why don't we go into every court in
19 every county and make sure the Judiciary
20 functions properly?
21 SENATOR LEIBELL: We do.
22 SENATOR ABATE: Aren't we over
23 reaching?
8875
1 SENATOR LEIBELL: I don't think
2 so, otherwise I wouldn't be putting in the
3 bill. In response to your question this
4 afternoon, I still don't think we're in any way
5 overreaching. But throughout the course of any
6 session, we constantly come up with legislation
7 aimed at improving the court system, making
8 their lot easier as well as at the same time
9 protecting parties that will appear before them,
10 and I think that's what this attempts to
11 accomplish. We may have a disagreement on what
12 the end result will be but that certainly is our
13 purpose.
14 SENATOR ABATE: On the bill, but
15 very briefly.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Abate on the bill.
18 SENATOR ABATE: I think my
19 colleagues have said just about everything that
20 I could say on this bill. I think if judges are
21 not doing the right thing, I think there are
22 other ways of making sure judges don't get
23 reappointed or making sure they don't get
8876
1 reelected in the first place, holding them to
2 high standards so that a judge on the bench
3 listens to the concerns of all parties, whether
4 they be landlords and tenants and not have a
5 predisposition.
6 That's what we should be doing
7 through education, public opinion, the political
8 process. I think it's wrong when we use our
9 laws to tip the scales in the advantage of one
10 group or another.
11 Housing Court is notorious for
12 delays. This will add another layer of
13 bureaucracy, hearings, further injustices. We
14 need to do something meaningful to make Housing
15 Court more efficient and effective to both
16 landlords and tenants. I do not believe this
17 legislation will move in that direction.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
19 Larkin.
20 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President.
21 Suspend the debate for now. We'd like to open
22 the rolls for Senator Kuhl to vote.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8877
1 Kuhl? Secretary will call the roll for Senator
2 Kuhl.
3 (The Secretary called the roll.)
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
5 Kuhl, how do you vote?
6 SENATOR KUHL: Aye.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Close
8 the roll.
9 Senator Hannon.
10 SENATOR HANNON: Mr. President,
11 on the bill.
12 I found the course of this debate
13 to be totally fascinating and, at best,
14 misleading. I think that the objections to this
15 meritorious bill are trying to focus on whether
16 the -- the court system, the procedures in the
17 court system, and any supposed or presumed
18 defects in the procedures set forth in the
19 bill.
20 I think, first of all, you have
21 to look at the problem. Senator Leibell has
22 referred to it, but I can't begin to address it
23 more strongly, that what we're trying to address
8878
1 is the quality of the housing stock in the city
2 of New York, a housing stock that currently has
3 to be viewed as under severe attack mainly for
4 economic reasons.
5 Those economic reasons are that
6 the state and the City government don't have the
7 cash that they may have had during the '80s to
8 keep it surviving, the challenges to maintain
9 the quality of that stock are ever increasing.
10 We have never resolved the question as to the
11 ability of many of these units to maintain their
12 service charges, the ability of many of these
13 units and buildings to pay their taxes.
14 We know that the water charges
15 are high and threatening the very viability of
16 many of the buildings; and if the federal
17 government has its way, those water charges to
18 each of these buildings will increase.
19 We're faced with questions as to
20 whether or not we will be able to afford any
21 reduction or abatement in the lead quantities
22 that are in some of the units in some of these
23 buildings.
8879
1 And what this bill attempts to
2 address is the fact that many of the people who
3 have lived in these units throughout the city
4 have gamed the system, and they are gaming the
5 system sometimes to the detriment of landlords
6 but I would say, ultimately, to the detriment of
7 their fellow tenants.
8 There are tens of thousands,
9 almost 50,000, of these proceedings every year
10 where people are skipping on their rents, and it
11 does not happen to be for the concern of the
12 landlord that I would support this bill. It is
13 the concern of the system.
14 When we last tried to rectify the
15 overwhelming problem of defaults, it was in the
16 late '70s, and we said the landlords must be
17 gaming the system, skipping out on the City in
18 paying their taxes, so we reduced sharply the
19 amount of time that you could get away with
20 without paying your taxes before the City would
21 step in. And what happened? The City was left
22 with lots of property.
23 That property became the units
8880
1 which then Mayor Koch rehabilitated and put back
2 out in the hands of tenants. But we don't have
3 the ability to take over the property again.
4 The City doesn't have the ability because it's
5 facing ever mounting deficits. Until we get
6 ourselves out of this spiral, we're going to
7 have to face the fact that HPD in the City is
8 going to lose more and more money in terms of
9 its budget.
10 So what are we to do? Are we to
11 face the fact that we allow a few people to game
12 the system and to destroy the whole system; or
13 do we support Senator Leibell's bill, which is a
14 reasonable obligation?
15 And do you know what? You would
16 think from the arguments here today that this is
17 some type of new imposition on the tenants, that
18 this is some type of penalty on the tenants,
19 that this is something that's coming out of the
20 blue. Guess what? All it is is saying, "Pay
21 what you agreed to pay." Nothing more. "And if
22 you want to ask for an adjournment, you got it.
23 But once you get past the second adjournment,
8881
1 you have the obligation to pay what you agreed
2 to pay."
3 Now, where is that money going to
4 go? It's going to pay the water bill. It's
5 going to pay the tax bill. It's going to pay
6 the electric bill. It's going to pay steam
7 heating if it's there. It's going to pay for
8 any of the services. It's going to pay for the
9 repairs. It's going to pay for the new boiler,
10 that's all, before anybody gets to make a,
11 quote, "profit" if anyone can ever make a profit
12 these days out of the housing in New York City.
13 So who's getting hurt? It's the
14 other people who are sharing that electricity,
15 that water, that heat and, if it's not paid,
16 they get hurt.
17 I can't see why the arguments
18 would be made. All you are doing is protecting
19 the people who are gaming the system. Each
20 year, the amount of money that gets deprived
21 from the housing system is over $100 million.
22 We know that there are about 300,000 to 400,000
23 new cases of this type brought every year, and
8882
1 maybe about 10 percent of them will involve the
2 situation where the rent is skipped.
3 It's obvious from the comments of
4 Senator Abate, citing the 1983 statute, that
5 that suggested language hasn't worked upon this
6 Housing Court. We need to be far more
7 stringent. We need to be far more definite, and
8 what we're doing is not giving advantage to one
9 side or another.
10 What we're doing is -- I think is
11 making sure a problem doesn't get worse. We're
12 making sure that we, as a state, don't have to
13 go in and bail out a system, and we're allowing
14 the resources, perhaps, to be directed elsewhere
15 to people who genuinely have housing problems -
16 the homeless, the people who are maybe -- who
17 have defects in terms of mental illness and we
18 put back in the community the people who have
19 lost their jobs. Remember, if you can't make
20 your rent, you can apply to Social Services, and
21 we will help you that way. So if you are truly
22 needy, if you are truly poor, you can be
23 assisted.
8883
1 This statute says the people who
2 are not truly needy can't game the system any
3 more, and I fully support it.
4 Thank you.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
6 the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
8 act shall take effect on the 30th day.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Slow roll
10 call.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: A slow
12 roll call has been called for. Call the roll
13 slowly. Ring the bell.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
15 SENATOR ABATE: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
17 (There was no response.)
18 Senator Bruno.
19 (There was an affirmative
20 indication.)
21 THE SECRETARY: Aye. Senator
22 Connor.
23 SENATOR CONNOR: No.
8884
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook.
2 (There was no response.)
3 Senator DeFrancisco.
4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Dollinger.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: No.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
10 SENATOR ESPADA: No.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
12 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Galiber
14 excused. Senator Gold.
15 SENATOR GOLD: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Gonzalez.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Goodman.
20 SENATOR GOODMAN: No.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon.
22 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock.
8885
1 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator
3 Hoffmann.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Holland.
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Jones.
10 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
12 SENATOR KRUGER: No.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl
14 voting in the affirmative earlier today.
15 Senator Lack.
16 (There was no response.)
17 Senator Larkin.
18 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
20 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
22 SENATOR LEIBELL: Mr. President,
23 to explain my vote.
8886
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
2 Leibell to explain his vote.
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: We have had
4 certainly a good extensive exchange on this
5 legislation which is before the Senate today,
6 and I am pleased that I have had an opportunity
7 to discuss this with you and with my colleagues.
8 I noted in my opening comments, and subsequently
9 throughout the debate, the reason this is before
10 the house is not to in any way pander to one
11 group or the other. This is here today because
12 it is believed -- and there is certainly a
13 substantial body of evidence -- that there is a
14 great problem that confronts New York City with
15 respect to its housing supply and the failure of
16 so many to pay the rents that are due on those
17 units. That failure can impact heavily on the
18 quality of housing that remains for everyone
19 else.
20 I think the legislation that's
21 been put forward attempts to address that
22 problem. I believe that it is fair. I believe
23 that if given the opportunity, it will go a long
8887
1 way towards relieving the substantial log jam
2 that we find in the Housing Court in New York
3 City, and I certainly accept the offer that was
4 proffered by my colleagues, and I can assure you
5 that as chairman of Housing that I will be
6 within the court system this summer and fall, to
7 look at it, to hopefully work with the people
8 who participate on a daily basis in that court
9 system and to craft, in the future, legislation
10 that will address some of the problems of that
11 particular court.
12 I vote in the affirmative.
13 Thank you, Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Leibell votes in the affirmative.
16 Continue the roll call.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leichter.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: No.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
20 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
22 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
8888
1 (There was no response.)
2 Senator Marcellino.
3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
5 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Markowitz.
8 (There was no response.)
9 Senator Maziarz.
10 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
12 SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Montgomery.
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
17 SENATOR NANULA: No.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator
19 Nozzolio.
20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
22 SENATOR ONORATO: No.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8889
1 Oppenheimer.
2 (There was no response.)
3 Senator Padavan.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Paterson.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: No.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
8 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
10 SENATOR RATH: Aye.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
12 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Santiago.
15 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears.
17 SENATOR SEARS: Yes.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
19 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
23 (There was no response.)
8890
1 Senator Solomon.
2 SENATOR SOLOMON: No.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Stachowski.
6 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Stafford.
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator
11 Stavisky.
12 (There was no response.)
13 Senator Trunzo voting in the
14 affirmative earlier today.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
16 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
18 SENATOR VELELLA: No.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
20 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Wright.
8891
1 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
3 Absentees.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
5 (There was no response.)
6 Senator Cook.
7 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
9 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator
11 Gonzalez.
12 SENATOR GONZALEZ: No.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Hoffmann.
15 (There was no response.)
16 Senator Lack.
17 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
19 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator
21 Markowitz.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Oppenheimer.
8892
1 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Smith.
5 SENATOR SMITH: No.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
7 SENATOR SPANO: No.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky.
9 (There was no response.)
10 Senator Waldon.
11 (There was no response.)
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
13 Results.
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 33. Nays
15 21.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
17 bill is passed.
18 Regular order, Senator Skelos?
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
20 At this time, if we could return to reports of
21 standing committees. I believe there is a
22 report of the Rules Committee.
23 And the reason why we're doing
8893
1 this before finishing this calendar so members
2 can be aware of what bills will be coming up on
3 the supplemental calendar, urge their staff to
4 bring the files over so that we can proceed
5 expeditiously with the supplemental calendar.
6 So if we can have the reading of
7 the Rules Committee.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
9 Secretary will read the report of the Rules
10 Committee.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
12 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
13 following bills:
14 Senate Print 1397, by Senator
15 Spano, an act to amend the State Finance Law, in
16 relation to payment of emergency financial aid;
17 1981, by Senator Connor, an act
18 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its
19 interest in certain real property;
20 1982, by Senator DiCarlo, an act
21 to amend the Executive law, in relation to
22 testing of certain applicants;
23 2138, by Senator Nozzolio, an act
8894
1 to amend the Social Services Law and the
2 Education Law, in relation to authorizing the
3 fingerprinting of prospective employees;
4 2226, by Senator Velella, an act
5 to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
6 minimum capital investments;
7 2400, by Senator Hoffmann, an act
8 to amend the Judiciary Law, in relation to
9 appointment of grand jury stenographers;
10 2654A, by Senator Goodman, an act
11 to amend the Multiple Dwelling Law and the
12 Administrative Code of the City of New York, in
13 relation to size of cooking spaces;
14 2798, by Senator Velella, an act
15 to amend the State Finance Law, the Tax Law and
16 the Administrative Code of the City of New York;
17 3222A, by Senator Cook, an act to
18 amend Chapter 565 of the Laws of 1990, amending
19 the Executive Law;
20 3855, by Senator Libous, an act
21 to amend the Mental Hygiene Law and the
22 Executive Law, in relation to members of the
23 Commission on Quality of Care;
8895
1 3856, by Senator Libous, an act
2 to amend the Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to
3 receivership of residential facilities;
4 4008, by Senator Saland, an act
5 to amend the General Business Law, in relation
6 to making unlawfully installing two-way mirrors
7 and other viewing devices a violation;
8 4417A, by Senator Velella, an act
9 to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to a
10 nonemployee chairman of a health service;
11 4450A, by Senator Velella, an act
12 to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
13 permitting the use of separate account funds;
14 4903A, by Senator Sears, an act
15 to amend the General Business Law, in relation
16 to itinerant vendors;
17 5027A, by Senator Tully, an act
18 to amend Chapter 237 of the Laws of 1993,
19 amending the Environmental Conservation Law;
20 5141, by Senator Maltese, an act
21 to amend the Administrative Code of the City of
22 New York, in relation to providing tax credits;
23 5228A, by Senator Wright, an act
8896
1 to amend Chapter 972 of the Laws of 1972,
2 relating to creating a Temporary State
3 Commission to study Tug Hill;
4 5276A, by Senator Rath, an act to
5 amend the Executive Law and others, in relation
6 to extending the Office of Business Permits and
7 Regulatory Assistance;
8 5300, by Senator DiCarlo, an act
9 to amend the Tax Law and the Administrative Code
10 of the City of New York, in relation to
11 repealing the sales and use taxes imposed by
12 such city;
13 5331, by Senator Farley, an act
14 to amend the Banking Law, in relation to the
15 licensing of money transmitters;
16 5332, by Senator Farley, an act
17 to amend the Banking Law, in relation to banking
18 records; and
19 5385, by Senator Maltese, an act
20 in relation to the election of delegates to a
21 national party convention.
22 All bills ordered directly for
23 third reading.
8897
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All
2 bills reported directly to third reading.
3 Senator Skelos.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept
5 the report of the Rules Committee.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 motion has been made to accept the report of the
8 Rules Committee.
9 All in favor, say aye.
10 (Response of "Aye.")
11 Those opposed, nay.
12 (There was no response.)
13 The Rules report is accepted.
14 All bills reported directly to third reading.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Will you please
16 recognize Senator Connor, please.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Connor.
19 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
20 President.
21 On behalf of Senator Abate and
22 myself, I would just like to ask all of my
23 colleagues to note the presence of and welcome
8898
1 to our chamber the representatives of the
2 Chinese Language Journalist Association from New
3 York City, who have joined us here today, and we
4 encourage them to observe and report on our
5 activities and perhaps go back to your
6 publications of which there are a number in New
7 York and encourage perhaps they send, in the
8 future, correspondents to Albany on a regular
9 basis to cover our proceedings, and the China
10 Press is also represented here.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
12 Senate is pleased to welcome you here to our
13 chamber, the most beautiful room in America,
14 according to the Smithsonian, and we're
15 delighted to have you journalists here. Come
16 back and see us again.
17 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
19 Waldon.
20 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr.
21 President. I was not here when calendar -- I
22 believe it was 994 was voted upon. I
23 respectfully request unanimous consent to be
8899
1 recorded in the negative.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
3 Senator, the record will reflect that had you
4 been here, you would have voted in the negative.
5 SENATOR WALDON: I appreciate
6 that, Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Markowitz.
9 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Thank you,
10 Mr. President.
11 I would like to first talk to our
12 Chinese friends. Niho Ma.
13 I would like to be recorded in
14 the negative on Calendar Number 91, 186, and if
15 I could have voted during that slow roll call -
16 and I know, Senator Leibell, I heard very
17 briefly some of that stimulating debate -- on
18 994, I would have voted against that bill.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Markowitz, they were both slow roll calls, so
21 you cannot be recorded on 91, but the record
22 will reflect that had you been in the chamber
23 you would have voted no. And 186, that's okay.
8900
1 That was not a slow roll call, so we'll take
2 care of that.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you
4 recognize Senator Onorato.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Onorato now. There are a lot of people standing
7 here.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Onorato.
9 Would you recognize Senator Onorato.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
11 Onorato.
12 SENATOR ONORATO: I would like
13 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
14 on Calendar 186.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
16 objection.
17 Senator Santiago.
18 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Ask unanimous
19 consent to be recorded in the negative on
20 Calendar Number 186.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
22 objection, Calendar 186, Senator Santiago will
23 be recorded in the negative.
8901
1 SENATOR SANTIAGO: And also 180
2 had I been here I would have voted in the
3 negative here.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
5 record will so show.
6 Senator Montgomery.
7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr.
8 President, I ask unanimous consent to be
9 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number
10 186.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 196?
12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: 186. And
13 had I been in the chamber when the vote was
14 taken on Calendar 91, I would have voted
15 no.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
17 record will so reflect that you would have been
18 in the negative on Calendar 91 and you will be
19 recorded in the negative on 186.
20 Senator Saland.
21 SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President,
22 if I could comment on Senator Markowitz'
23 description of Senator Skelos' debate, I thought
8902
1 it was not only scintillating but captivating
2 for all of us. But I would like to to remove
3 the stars on Calendar 954 and 959, both stars
4 removed.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
6 objection, stars are removed also.
7 Senator Gold.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President,
9 very good to see you.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Nice to
11 see you.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Could the record
13 reflect that had I been in the chamber when
14 Calendar Number 91 was called, in spite of my
15 great respect for Senator Holland, I would have
16 voted in the negative.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 record will so reflect.
19 Senator Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes. Is there
21 any housekeeping?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I think
23 there -- Senator Libous has significant
8903
1 housekeeping.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
3 President.
4 On behalf of Senator Velella,
5 please place a sponsor's star on Calendar Number
6 1222.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
8 bill is starred.
9 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
10 on behalf of Senator Cook, on page 7, I offer
11 the following amendments to Calendar Number 247,
12 Senate Print Number 2271A, and ask that said
13 bill retain its place on the Third Reading
14 Calendar.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
16 objection.
17 SENATOR LIBOUS: On behalf of
18 Senator Levy, Mr. President, I offer the
19 following amendments to Calendar Number 876,
20 Senate Print Number 4986A, and ask that said
21 bill retain its place on Third Reading
22 Calendar.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
8904
1 objection.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: On behalf of
3 Senator Marcellino, on page 33, I offer the
4 following amendments to Calendar Number 957,
5 Senate Print 4951A, and ask that said bill
6 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
8 objection.
9 SENATOR LIBOUS: On behalf of
10 Senator Farley, on page 37, I offer the
11 following amendments to Calendar Number 1141,
12 Senate Print 5120, and ask that said bill retain
13 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
15 objection.
16 SENATOR LIBOUS: On behalf of
17 Senate Tully, I offer the following amendments
18 to Calendar Number 925, Senate Print 3263, and
19 ask that said bill retain its place on Third
20 Reading Calendar.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
22 objection again.
23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
8905
1 President.
2 On behalf of Senator LaValle, I
3 wish to call up his bill, Senate Print Number
4 2736, recalled from the Assembly which is now at
5 the desk.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 Secretary will read Senator LaValle's bill.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 765, Senate Print Number 2736, by Senator
10 LaValle, in relation to information regarding
11 the tests to determine the presence of
12 Thelassemia Trait.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Libous.
15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
16 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
17 bill was passed.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
19 the roll on reconsideration.
20 (The Secretary called the roll on
21 reconsideration.)
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is
8906
1 before the house. Senator Libous.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
3 now offer up the following amendments.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
5 Amendments received. Bill will retain its
6 place. Senator Libous.
7 SENATOR LIBOUS: On behalf of
8 Senator Lack, I wish to call up his bill, Senate
9 Print Number 1465A, recalled from the Assembly
10 which is now at the desk.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
12 Secretary will read Senator Lack's bill.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 543, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 1465A, an act
15 in relation to the real property tax assessed by
16 the town of Smithtown.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Libous.
19 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
20 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
21 bill was passed.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
23 the roll on reconsideration.
8907
1 (The Secretary called the roll on
2 reconsideration.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
5 bill is before the house. Senator Libous.
6 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
7 now offer up the following amendments.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
9 Amendments received; bill will retain its
10 place.
11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
12 on behalf of Senator Volker, I wish to call up
13 his bill, Print Number 2767, recalled from the
14 Assembly which is now at the desk.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
16 Secretary will read Senator Volker's bill.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 554, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 2767, an
19 act to amend Chapter 207 of the Laws of 1994.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
21 Libous.
22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
23 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
8908
1 bill was passed.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
3 the roll on reconsideration.
4 (The Secretary called the roll on
5 reconsideration. )
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Bill is
8 before the house. Senator Libous.
9 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
10 now offer up the following amendments.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
12 Amendments are received, bill will retain its
13 place.
14 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
15 on behalf of Senator Goodman, I wish to call up
16 his bill, Print Number 3498, recalled from the
17 Assembly which is now at the desk.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
19 Secretary will read Senator Goodman's bill.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 859, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 3498, an
22 act to amend the Transportation Law, in relation
23 to estimates of transportation charges.
8909
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
2 Libous.
3 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
4 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
5 bill was passed.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
7 the roll on reconsideration.
8 (The Secretary called the roll on
9 reconsideration.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
12 bill is before the house. Senator Libous.
13 SENATOR LIBOUS: I offer up the
14 following amendments.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
16 Amendments are received and the bill will retain
17 its place. Senator Libous.
18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, on
19 behalf of Senator Saland, I wish to call up his
20 bill, Print Number 3918, recalled from the
21 Assembly which is now at the desk.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
23 Secretary will read Senator Saland's bill.
8910
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar number
2 607, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3918, an
3 act to amend the Public Housing Law, in relation
4 to creating the town of Patterson Housing
5 Authority.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
7 Libous.
8 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
9 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
10 bill was passed.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
12 the roll on reconsideration.
13 (The Secretary called the roll on
14 reconsideration.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
17 bill is before the house. Senator Libous.
18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
19 offer up the following amendments.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
21 Amendments will be received; bill will retain
22 its place. Senator Libous.
23 SENATOR LIBOUS: The last motion.
8911
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
2 last motion.
3 SENATOR LIBOUS: On the last
4 motion, on behalf of Senator Levy, I wish to
5 call up his bill, Senator Print Number 339,
6 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the
7 desk.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
9 Secretary will read Senator Levy's bill.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar number
11 566, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 339, an act
12 to amend the Transportation Law, in relation to
13 expanding the definition of "school".
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Libous.
16 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
17 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
18 bill was passed.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
20 the roll on reconsideration.
21 (The Secretary called the roll on
22 reconsideration.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
8912
1 SENATOR LIBOUS: I offer up the
2 following amendments.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
4 Amendments are received and Senator Levy's bill
5 will retain its place on the Third Reading
6 Calendar.
7 Thank you, Senator Libous. That
8 was a fine job.
9 Senator Skelos.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
11 if we could continue regular order.
12 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes. Mr.
13 President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Seward.
16 SENATOR SEWARD: If I could ask
17 unanimous consent to be recorded in the negative
18 on Calendar Number 583 which passed earlier
19 today.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 583,
21 without objection, you will be in the negative.
22 SENATOR SEWARD: Thank you.
23 Senator Skelos, regular order,
8913
1 sir?
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, regular
3 order, please.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Regular
5 order.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 1058, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 2959, an
8 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in
9 relation to establishing the town of Norwich
10 Industrial Development Agency.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
12 a home rule message here at the desk. You can
13 read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Paterson, you want an explanation?
19 Senator Libous.
20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr.
21 President.
22 What this does is renew basically
23 what they already have in the city of Norwich.
8914
1 Basically the establishment of -- they've
2 already had the Norwich Industrial Development
3 Agency and apparently under law, Mr. President,
4 if you go for a period of time and do not bond,
5 which they did not, you have to re-establish
6 yourself, and this bill just re-establishes that
7 agency.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
11 I'm just wondering if the sponsor would yield
12 for a question.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would
14 you yield, Senator Libous?
15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, I would.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. I
17 just wonder, if the IDA has been so inactive up
18 to this point, can you explain to us why we're
19 going to reinstitute it at this time?
20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I
21 can, and that would be a very good question. I
22 would probably if I were on the other side of
23 the aisle, Senator Paterson, ask the same
8915
1 question.
2 Basically the city of Norwich and
3 the surrounding area has come through some very
4 difficult times in the past couple of years and
5 prior to this they did not use the IDA for
6 bonding for additional projects. Right now, we
7 have several projects that are on the horizon in
8 which we're going to be using the IDA for
9 bonding, and we need to re-establish it.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: O.K. Thank
11 you.
12 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr.
13 President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
15 Larkin? No, I'm sorry. Senator Stachowski.
16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: If Senator
17 Libous will continue to yield.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm
19 sure he will.
20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes, Mr.
21 President.
22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Does the
23 county that the town is in, do they have an IDA?
8916
1 SENATOR LIBOUS: No, sir, I don't
2 believe they do.
3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: O.K. One
4 more question. And this would be the only IDA
5 in that whole area, that currently there isn't
6 one?
7 SENATOR LIBOUS: For the -- for
8 the town of Norwich, that's correct.
9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: O.K. Thank
10 you.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
12 the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
16 the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll. )
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55, nays
19 one; Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
21 bill is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 1107, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4673A.
8917
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
3 Explanation has been asked for. Senator Tully.
4 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr.
5 President.
6 This legislation seeks to exempt
7 certain bakeries from the state air emission
8 regulations. This bill would exempt bakeries
9 which derive 50 percent or more of their
10 revenues from on-site retail sales or which use
11 only batch ovens in their baking process.
12 A similar bill was introduced in
13 March of this year by Assemblyman Brodsky, and
14 the DEC objected to it because it did not
15 contain a definition of batch ovens. Since that
16 time, there has been three-way agreement on the
17 bill. It is now supported by the DEC and the
18 New York State Food Merchants Association.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
22 if Senator Tully would yield?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Would
8918
1 you yield, Senator Tully?
2 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
3 President.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Tully,
5 this is really a different bill than we saw last
6 year. By the agreement that's now reached, what
7 we have is a situation that applies only to the
8 smaller bakeries in the regulated community, and
9 they would be perceived not to have any real
10 environmental effect or that they would generate
11 any pollution that would affect the atmosphere
12 as opposed to perhaps what the concern may have
13 been on the part of advocates for the
14 environment last year, is that correct?
15 SENATOR TULLY: That's correct,
16 Mr. President.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
20 the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
8919
1 the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
5 bill is passed.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8 Skelos.
9 SENATOR SKELOS: On behalf of
10 Senator Levy, I'd like to move to reconsider the
11 vote by which Calendar Number 553, Senate 4146,
12 passed the house.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
14 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration
15 of Senator Levy's bill.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 553, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4146, an act
18 to amend the Transportation Law.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
20 the roll on reconsideration.
21 (The Secretary called the roll on
22 reconsideration. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
8920
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay the bill
2 aside for amendment.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay the
4 bill aside for an amendment.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Continue with
6 regular order.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Regular
8 order.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 1197, by
10 Senator Velella, Senate Print 3663B, an act to
11 amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
12 provisions regarding motor vehicle insurance
13 rates.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
16 Explanation. Senator Velella.
17 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, Senator.
18 This would extend to motor vehicle insurance for
19 individuals or non-commercial motor vehicle
20 insurance a flex rating system that we now have
21 in effect for commercial insurers. It allows
22 companies to adopt a file and use a procedure
23 which this Legislature had enacted during the
8921
1 liability insurance crisis and which has worked
2 to stabilize the rates in the commercial area
3 and the liability area, and we believe and the
4 Department believes that it would be a good
5 addition to the Insurance Law of this state if
6 we could have flex rating in the private
7 automotive insurance business.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
9 President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
11 Paterson.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr.
13 President, the flex rating system would allow
14 the insurance to increase, as I see it, Senator
15 Velella, so my question to you -- if you would
16 yield.
17 SENATOR VELELLA: Do I yield?
18 Yes.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: -- is how does
20 the consumer benefit by the adoption of a flex
21 rating system?
22 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, what it
23 will do is, it will make insurance more
8922
1 available during crisis periods because it
2 allows for the flexibility of market rates and
3 it also requires that the companies and,
4 Senator, I don't know the last time I looked at
5 an insurance bill and I've been driving and
6 owning a car for a number of years. I'm sure
7 you have owned a car or had some insurance or
8 know someone who does, but certainly I haven't
9 seen any reductions in insurance premiums for
10 car owners in a long, long time. I can't
11 remember any, so they have been going up at
12 about the rate of anywhere from three to eight
13 percent per year depending on different variety
14 of circumstances, so this will now allow rather
15 than a -- rather than the system where we have
16 -- where there is a pre-approval, this will be
17 a file and use which works in the marketplace to
18 reflect trends that change and fluctuate.
19 It will also allow the companies
20 to reduce the amount of paperwork that they have
21 to do in the system that they have now and allow
22 the Insurance Department to reduce their man
23 power on these pre-approval processes which
8923
1 require a lot of time and will result in a
2 savings for the state, a savings to the
3 insurance companies. I doubt very seriously if
4 the companies will pass that savings on to the
5 consumer because you and I both know they
6 promise they will; however, we hope that in
7 monitoring it, they will at least reduce the
8 increases that are inevitable to come down the
9 road.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
11 this is kind of a strange circumstance because I
12 feel that Senator Velella is actually making the
13 argument that I wanted to make to him, and I
14 guess -
15 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, then we
16 agree, Senator. Let's sit down.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Let's sit down
18 and lay this bill aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
20 Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: That's exactly
22 what I'm asking, Senator. In other words, now
23 that we've -- it would seem that cutting down on
8924
1 the additional paperwork and allowing the
2 insurance company to work outside the system
3 would actually be of benefit to the consumer.
4 What I'm afraid of, and maybe this is what I
5 need for you to clean up for me and then maybe
6 we can sit down, is why the insurance company
7 now, without pre-approval can just pass the rate
8 increases along through the flex system and not
9 really have to waste any time, in a sense
10 justifying the rate increase.
11 I don't -- I don't see how this
12 is actually going to help. It will benefit the
13 insurance company and it will clear up a lot of
14 red tape, I would say, but inevitably, wouldn't
15 this accomplish the goal of making the increases
16 occur faster?
17 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator,
18 the best example I could give you trying to
19 respond to that problem as you outline it is a
20 problem that this Legislature had to face and
21 probably will have to face again probably in the
22 two-year future, is the problem we had with
23 Empire Blue Cross/Blue Shield.
8925
1 If you know -- if you remember
2 the increases that they had been applying for
3 were delayed and delayed by the Department and
4 further delayed, and then this Legislature had
5 to take a very firm step and pass some
6 legislation which resulted in a piling up of all
7 those increases hitting the consumer in one
8 solid shot that really hurt a lot of people, but
9 there was no alternative.
10 This flex rating system which the
11 Legislature came up with, I don't know if you
12 were here, but it was before I was here, I
13 believe Senator Bruno was the chairman of the
14 Insurance Committee, was a tool that was used to
15 stabilize rates in the commercial area and in
16 the commercial liability area, and it has worked
17 very, very well.
18 These companies are accountable
19 within a band for the maximum amount of increase
20 that they can make which will be determined by
21 the Superintendent, so in essence it's not just
22 a free hand to say you can raise your premiums
23 whatever you want. A band is established where,
8926
1 if they wish to go beyond that band and increase
2 the premiums, that they would be charging the
3 public more than what the Superintendent says is
4 fair and reasonable, based upon his analysis of
5 the insurance market, then they would have to go
6 into a prior approval system where the
7 Superintendent would hold the formalized
8 procedures and hold, I believe, a public hearing
9 in most cases for the people to have this
10 increase -- for the companies to have this
11 increase if they violate that band.
12 That band at best would be
13 somewhere between that two and eight percent
14 that we talked about before.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
16 President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Paterson.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
20 Velella, you're right on the Blue Cross/Blue
21 Shield issue. That happened before I came
22 here. I actually came here one Senator before
23 you came here. I came directly before you,
8927
1 which was three months before you and the -- but
2 what I thought happened in that situation,
3 Senator, is that we went from the situation
4 where we had no prior approval to the flex
5 system.
6 Here, as I see it, we're going in
7 the reverse. We're going in a situation where
8 we have a strict regulation and prior approval
9 to the flex system which is a reduced sense, am
10 I not correct, in that assumption?
11 SENATOR VELELLA: You're correct
12 in that, and one of the -- one of the things
13 that we're trying to address here is to allow
14 the companies to reflect the market conditions,
15 not to try to overly anticipate and go in for an
16 increase to be approved for greater than -
17 yeah, when you have somebody saying what you can
18 give in terms of an increase, the tendency is to
19 go in for the most you can get and that's what I
20 believe some companies have been doing in order
21 to insure themselves against the possibility of
22 low-balling the estimate of what they would need
23 to make their portfolio profitable.
8928
1 With the flex rating system,
2 they're given the opportunity to amend their
3 rates, to go in and use them as need be and the
4 competitive marketplace does put a barometer on
5 it. You can't just go in and price yourself out
6 of the market, so in most cases that fair
7 competition out there, the price of a premium of
8 an insurance policy will be also a monitoring
9 factor in the marketplace.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
11 much, Senator.
12 Mr. President, on the bill.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
14 bill, Senator Paterson.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: I think there
16 is perhaps agreement. I think Senator Velella
17 makes a lot of sense. I guess I would just say
18 that there is between he and myself, an
19 individual interpretation on what the insurance
20 company's assessment will be, rather a test of
21 faith in the actual insurance companies, but I
22 appreciate the fact that he did understand that
23 this system that we would be creating should
8929
1 actually inure to the benefit of the consumer,
2 but I don't think it will, and I'm happy to see
3 that Senator Velella seems to recognize that as
4 well.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
6 the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This
8 act shall take effect June 30th.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll. )
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
14 bill is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1220, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 4649, an
17 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law,
18 in relation to authorizing liquor stores to
19 operate on Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
22 Explanation has been asked for. Senator
23 Seward.
8930
1 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, Mr.
2 President.
3 This bill before us which is
4 sponsored in the other house by member of the
5 Assembly Eileen Dugan and amends the ABC Law to
6 authorize liquor stores to conduct business on
7 December 24th and December twenty... excuse me,
8 December 31st, when those dates fall on a
9 Sunday, and the bill specifically only
10 authorizes the hours of between 12:00 and 6:00
11 p.m.
12 Now, currently the law prohibits
13 such stores from operating on Sundays, and the
14 calendar indicates that every seven years, of
15 course, Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve fall on
16 Sunday, including this year, 1995, and these
17 days are traditionally the two busiest days for
18 these retailers as customers shop for last
19 minute Christmas gifts or stop by on their way
20 to a family dinner.
21 This bill is not any sweeping
22 change in the existing law. It involves six
23 hours of operation of these stores every seven
8931
1 years and seeks to do this for the convenience
2 of the retailers and the customers alike.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
4 Solomon.
5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Mr.
6 President. Will Senator Seward yield?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I think
8 he will. Senator Seward?
9 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes.
10 SENATOR SOLOMON: I'm trying to
11 phrase this as delicately as I can. Senator, in
12 terms of Christmas Eve, why would there be an
13 exception on Sunday in terms of Christmas Eve?
14 Can you tell me why, what significance that has?
15 SENATOR SEWARD: I'm not sure I
16 understand your question.
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Well, Senator,
18 you're -- let me ask you another question.
19 Senator, why are liquor stores currently closed
20 on Sunday?
21 SENATOR SEWARD: That was done
22 long before I came on the scene, that they are a
23 relic, I believe, of some of the "blue laws"
8932
1 which, of course, were very prevalent in this
2 state for many years. This -- this is covered
3 specifically in the -- of course, in the ABC
4 Law.
5 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator Seward
6 yield, please?
7 SENATOR SEWARD: Certainly.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 Seward.
10 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator,
11 there's certain parts of my district in which
12 liquor stores are closed every Saturday, and
13 would you have an objection if those liquor
14 stores that were closed on Saturday would be
15 open on Sunday?
16 SENATOR SEWARD: This bill
17 doesn't address that particular issue. I -- if
18 you would care to introduce such a bill, I
19 obviously would take a look at it. I haven't
20 really thought about that. I'd want to take a
21 look at the particular bill.
22 SENATOR SOLOMON: O.K.
23 SENATOR SEWARD: In any event, I
8933
1 would just further point out, Senator, that this
2 doesn't require a store to remain open or to
3 close. It just, of course, authorizes, gives
4 the opportunity for such a store to be open on
5 those two days which roll around every seven
6 years.
7 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator yield?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 Seward?
10 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, those
11 will be Sundays, though, correct? Those are
12 Sundays?
13 SENATOR SEWARD: That is
14 correct.
15 SENATOR SOLOMON: On the bill,
16 Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
18 bill, Senator Solomon.
19 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, I
20 would be inclined to vote for this bill but what
21 concerns me is a problem that's been brought up
22 in my Senate District for a number of years,
23 particularly dealing with the Orthodox Jewish
8934
1 community which observes Saturday as its day of
2 rest, and what concerns me is that we have never
3 been able to get our liquor stores to be allowed
4 to be open on Sundays, even though they are
5 closed on Saturdays, and that causes particular
6 problems on certain holidays when days of
7 observance fall as a result of the calendar
8 where wine is required to be used in certain
9 ceremonies in the Jewish holidays where, in
10 fact, the stores would be closed on Saturday and
11 as a result of the law that liquor stores are
12 closed on Sunday and the holiday starts on
13 Sunday night, that people are put at a distinct
14 disadvantage as are the owners of the liquor
15 stores, and what also concerns me is, in fact,
16 that the "blue laws" originated out of -
17 historically out of a religious aspect of this
18 country as you were talking about Christmas,
19 because in parts of my Senate District, December
20 25th is December 25th and there is no
21 significance attached to that day, and in parts
22 of my district January 1st is January 1st, and
23 there is no significance attached to that day,
8935
1 because both holidays have a religious
2 connotation, and I respect that, and, in fact,
3 this bill will aid those liquor stores in my
4 Senate District that are indeed closed on
5 Saturday and they will now be able to be open
6 for two days on Sunday, but I believe it should
7 be stated for the record here that there are no
8 objections to liquor stores being opened on
9 Sundays. In fact, I believe that's what this
10 bill does, and I think this Legislature should
11 be cognizant of the fact that a large growing
12 part of our state, because the Orthodox commun
13 ity is one of the fastest growing populations
14 within the state of New York, does have a
15 particular problem with the ABC Laws as they
16 currently exist, because those laws discriminate
17 against people that follow that faith and/or
18 people that own liquor stores.
19 I'd have no problem requiring a
20 liquor store to be closed either Saturday or
21 Sunday or one day of the week, and I just hope
22 the other members of this body realize that, in
23 fact, this bill has religious connotations that
8936
1 affect a large part of this state but does not
2 affect another part of the community within this
3 state which has a severe problem with them not
4 being allowed to open on Sundays currently.
5 In fact, I'd like to suggest to
6 you maybe we should amend this bill to allow
7 liquor stores to be open on Sundays as long as
8 they are closed on a Saturday in terms of
9 religious observance.
10 Thank you.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
12 Jones.
13 SENATOR JONES: On the bill.
14 Usually most pieces of legislation that come
15 before us, we have memos in support and memos in
16 opposition. Well, I don't see any on this, so
17 I'm going to take this one as just a "feel good"
18 vote and that's how I'm going to vote.
19 Ladies and gentlemen, we spend
20 millions of dollars every year on treating
21 alcohol abuse. We spend another millions
22 educating our youth on the dangers of alcohol,
23 to say nothing of let's talk about the money we
8937
1 spend in our courts on prosecuting DWIs or the
2 horrors that are left in this country over
3 people injured by drunken driving, and we stand
4 here today worrying that people aren't going to
5 be able to stock up enough alcohol to get
6 through two holidays of the year, and heaven
7 forbid they got to shop a day early.
8 I think it's the silliest thing
9 that I've heard since I've been here. I feel
10 very good about voting no.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
12 President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Paterson.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
16 would Senator Wright yield for a question?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
18 Wright or Senator Seward?
19 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm sorry.
20 Senator Seward.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
22 Seward I thought. I'm sure he will.
23 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes, Mr.
8938
1 President.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: My apologies,
3 Senator Seward.
4 Many times in this Legislature I
5 think many of the questions are a little
6 technical and a little nebulous, and after this
7 question, I'm hoping, Senator Seward, that you
8 will nominate me for the all-time nebulous
9 question award or at least the one for 1995.
10 Senator Seward, do you know the
11 last time that this bill would have been applied
12 when it -- if it had already been in existence?
13 SENATOR SEWARD: It would have
14 been six years ago if my -
15 SENATOR PATERSON: So really this
16 doesn't really happen every seven years; it
17 actually happens every six years because of Leap
18 Year.
19 SENATOR SEWARD: I stand
20 corrected.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: In addition to
22 that, Senator Seward, I want you to be relieved
23 to know that the next time that the Sunday
8939
1 before Christmas and the Sunday before New
2 Year's will occur will be in the year 2000
3 because there are two Leap Years that will
4 intervene between now and that time.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Seward.
7 SENATOR SEWARD: I -- on the
8 question of Leap Years, I'll gladly defer to
9 Senator Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: If Senator
11 Seward is satisfied with my recitation of the
12 calendar, I consider this to be the greatest
13 waste of time that we have indulged ourselves in
14 during this session but it only took one
15 minute.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Dollinger.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One question
19 on the bill for Senator Seward, if he'd yield.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I think
21 he will.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The Memorial
23 Day holiday is always on a Monday, the Labor Day
8940
1 Holiday is always on a Monday, the Columbus Day
2 holiday is usually on a Monday, and the 4th of
3 July is often a Monday. Do the retailers who
4 have liquor stores show that they somehow lose
5 sales because they're closed the day before
6 these national holidays which have no religious
7 significance?
8 SENATOR SEWARD: Well, Mr.
9 President, I -- I have no indication in terms of
10 the other holidays. These two particular
11 holidays have been brought to my attention as
12 ones that -- the day prior to them are the
13 busiest days and so that's -- that's why this
14 bill addresses those particular dates. If you
15 -- if the retailers in your district or others
16 feel that there are additional days, where there
17 is a similar problem, then feel free to
18 introduce a bill.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm probably
20 going to join my colleague, Senator Jones, in
21 voting against this measure. I agree with her,
22 I mean on our national holidays we seem to have
23 plenty of alcohol in circulation even though
8941
1 package stores, liquor stores, are closed the
2 day before a national holiday.
3 I don't know why we have to make
4 them more available on two religious holidays.
5 I'm not so sure that we should be encouraging
6 people to drink on religious holidays, but
7 giving them a disincentive to drink on their
8 national holidays. I don't understand how that
9 works on a matter of state policy. I'll be
10 voting in the negative. Let's keep the stores
11 closed on Sunday.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
13 Marchi.
14 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President, I
15 think that we're really straining at gnats
16 here. Both Christmas and New Year's are days of
17 observance to tens of millions of people across
18 the nation, and alcoholic beverages are not
19 necessarily evil. I have to preface this with
20 my profession of the fact that, even though I
21 don't drink, I'm not a prohibitionist, and I
22 don't -- I don't have too much sympathy for
23 prohibitionism as such.
8942
1 The founder of my religion, Mr.
2 President, performed his first miracle at the
3 marriage feast of Cana, so I don't know whether
4 they dispensed Coca-Cola at the event or whether
5 they dispensed wine. Historians would suggest
6 that the miracle that occurred was the avail
7 ability of wine for those special circumstances.
8 So I -- I think that the
9 Senator's bill makes eminent sense. It's in
10 tune with our mores and our practices, our
11 familial support in millions and millions of
12 homes. I see no -- nothing wrong. If there are
13 circumstances, as one of the Senators pointed
14 out, maybe Senator Solomon, perhaps that are
15 analogous in their circumstances, I believe the
16 same accommodation should be met, and I would
17 have no problem co-sponsoring with someone for
18 the periodic, not -- this is not a usual event.
19 I mean it doesn't occur usually. It's just once
20 in a while to further a practice that follows
21 existing mores and usage.
22 Now, I certainly would be
23 delighted to support anyone who has -- who has
8943
1 analogous circumstances in other settings and
2 other spiritual backgrounds for festive
3 occasions and make the same arrangements.
4 It's a very fine bill. I -- he's
5 got my complete support on this one.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
7 the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
11 the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Montgomery to explain her vote.
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
16 President, just briefly to explain my vote.
17 This bill calls for the liquor stores to be open
18 on Christmas Eve and that is a high holy day for
19 Christians in this state, and I'm one, and I
20 certainly don't know why we chose Christmas Eve
21 as opposed to, as Senator Dollinger has raised,
22 some of the other national holidays where
23 festive celebration is more appropriate.
8944
1 So I'm voting against this bill
2 because I think symbolically we just should not
3 be looking to encourage the consumption of
4 liquor around a religious holiday. So I vote
5 no.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
7 Results.
8 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
9 the negative on Calendar Number 1220 are
10 Senators Dollinger, Jones, Kruger, Montgomery,
11 Gold. Ayes 52, nays 5.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
13 bill is passed.
14 Senator Nanula.
15 SENATOR NANULA: Mr. President, I
16 would like to request unanimous consent to be
17 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number
18 186.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
20 objection, you'll be in the negative.
21 SENATOR NANULA: Thank you.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
23 Hoblock.
8945
1 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Mr. President,
2 earlier today I was not in the chamber when
3 there was a slow roll call on Calendar Number
4 91, Senate Bill 2046B. I was at a meeting with
5 the Commissioner of General Services, and had I
6 been in the chamber during that slow roll call,
7 I would have voted in the affirmative.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: All
9 right. Before I do that, we were in the middle
10 of a roll call. The bill was passed, and the
11 vote was announced.
12 The record will so indicate your
13 concern with being out of the chamber, Senator
14 Hoblock.
15 Senator Skelos.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I
17 -- I couldn't hear, but was Calendar Number
18 1220 passed?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Yes, it
20 was.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: It was. Thank
22 you.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8946
1 Maltese.
2 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
3 I would ask unanimous consent to be recorded in
4 the negative on Calendar Number 1220.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1220,
6 without objection, you'll be in the negative.
7 Senator Maziarz.
8 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, Mr.
9 President, without objection, I would also like
10 to be recorded in the negative on Calendar
11 Number 1220.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
13 objection, you'll be in the negative on 1220.
14 Senator Bruno.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
16 can we at this time go to the Supplemental
17 Calendar Number 1 take up the non-controversial
18 calendar.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
20 Supplemental Calendar. Secretary will read.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 1223, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 1397, an
23 act to amend the State Finance Law, in relation
8947
1 to payment of emergency financial aid.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
3 the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
11 bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar -
13 Senator Connor moves to discharge from the
14 Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 2827,
15 and substitute it for the identical Calendar
16 Number 1224.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
18 Substitution is ordered.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar number
20 1224, by member of the Assembly Ortiz, Assembly
21 Print Number 2827, an act authorizing the city
22 of New York to reconvey its interest in certain
23 real property.
8948
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
2 a home rule message here at the desk. You can
3 read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
11 bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 1225, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print Number
14 1982, an act to amend the Executive Law, in
15 relation to testing of certain applicants for
16 employment with the Division for Youth.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
22 the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8949
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 bill is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 1226, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print Number
6 2138.
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Lay aside,
8 please.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
10 aside.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella
12 moves to discharge from the Committee on
13 Insurance Assembly Bill Number 3470, and
14 substitute it for the identical Calendar Number
15 1227.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
17 Substitution is ordered. Read the last
18 section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1227, by member of the Assembly Pordum, Assembly
21 Print Number 3470, an act to amend the Insurance
22 Law, in relation to minimum capital investments
23 of financial guarantee insurers.
8950
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
2 the roll. Oh, read the last section. I'm
3 sorry.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect on the 30th day.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
11 bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann
13 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules
14 Assembly Bill Number 3881, and substitute it for
15 the identical Calendar Number 1228.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
17 Substitution is ordered. Read the last
18 section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1228, by member of the Assembly McGee, Assembly
21 Print 3881, an act to amend the Judiciary Law,
22 in relation to appointment of grand jury
23 stenographers.
8951
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
2 the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
6 the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
10 bill is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 1229, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 2654A, an
13 act to amend the Multiple Dwelling Law and the
14 Administrative Code of the city of New York, in
15 relation to the size of cooking spaces.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
17 the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect January 1st.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
21 the roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
8952
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
2 bill is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 1230, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2798, an
5 act to amend the State Finance Law, the Tax Law
6 and the Administrative Code of the city of New
7 York.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
9 a home rule message here at the desk.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
12 aside.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 1231, by Senator Cook, Senate Print Number
15 3222A, an act to amend Chapter 565 of the Laws
16 of 1990, amending the Executive Law.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
22 the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8953
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
3 bill is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 1232, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 3855, an
6 act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law and the
7 Executive Law, in relation to members of the
8 Commission on Quality of Care.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
10 the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
14 the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
18 bill is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1233, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 3856, an
21 act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law.
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside for
23 the day.
8954
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay it
2 aside for today.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland
4 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules
5 Assembly Bill Number 888 and substitute it for
6 the identical Calendar Number 1234.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
8 Substitution is ordered.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 1234, by member of the Assembly Brodsky,
11 Assembly Print Number 888, an act to amend the
12 General Business Law, in relation to making
13 unlawfully installing two-way mirrors or other
14 viewing devices.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
16 the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect on the 1st day of
19 November.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
21 the roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
8955
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
2 bill is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 1235, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4417A, an
5 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to a
6 non-employee chairman.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
8 the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
12 the roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: That
16 bill is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 1236, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4450A, an
19 act to amend the Insurance Law in relation to
20 permitting the use of separate account funds.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
22 the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8956
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll. )
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 bill is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 1238, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 4903A, an
10 act to amend the -
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
13 aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 1239, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 5027A, an
16 act to amend Chapter 237 of the Laws of 1993.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
19 aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1240, by Senator Maltese.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
8957
1 that bill aside.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1241, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 5228A, an
4 act to amend Chapter 972 of the Laws of 1972,
5 relating to creating a temporary state
6 commission.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
8 the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
12 the roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
16 bill is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 1242, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 5276A, an
19 act to amend the Executive Law and others, in
20 relation to extending the Office of Business
21 Permits.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside,
23 please.
8958
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
2 aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 1243, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5300, an
5 act to amend the Tax Law and the Administrative
6 Code of the city of New York, in relation to
7 repealing the sales and use taxes.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Laid
10 aside.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 1244, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 5331, an
13 act to amend the Banking Law.
14 SENATOR FARLEY: Lay that bill
15 aside; it's high. So is the next one.
16 THE SECRETARY: 1245, by Senator
17 Farley.
18 SENATOR FARLEY: It's high. Lay
19 it aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1246, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 5385.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay
8959
1 that bill aside.
2 Senator Bruno, that's the first
3 time through.
4 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
5 can we now take up the controversial calendar.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
7 Controversial, Secretary will read.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 1226, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 2138, an
10 act to amend the Social Services Law and the
11 Education Law.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation,
13 please.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
15 Explanation has been asked for. If we'll wait
16 just a moment, we'll get an explanation.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
18 Lay the bill aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Lay the
20 bill aside; we'll come back to it.
21 Senator Velella's bill, if you'll
22 read that, please.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8960
1 1230, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2798, an
2 act to amend the State Finance Law, the Tax Law,
3 and the Administrative Code of the city of New
4 York.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
6 a home rule message here at the desk. You can
7 read the last -
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
10 Explanation. Senator Velella.
11 SENATOR VELELLA: Yeah. This
12 bill would allow a check-off for the purposes of
13 funds to be appropriated through the parks
14 purposes of the city of New York on -- for urban
15 forestry. I'm looking for my folder, Senator.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Paterson.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Excuse me, Mr.
19 President. Would the sponsor -- I'm just not
20 clear on -- this would establish a fund for
21 urban forestry?
22 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes, a fund for
23 parks, trees and urban forestry.
8961
1 SENATOR PATERSON: If the sponsor
2 would yield, I'm just trying to find out what
3 this would actually be used for, Senator.
4 SENATOR VELELLA: Yeah. The
5 monies will be made available to the Commission
6 er of the Department of Parks and Recreation of
7 the city of New York for the purposes of
8 planting trees, developing vest-pocket park
9 shrubberies, that type of thing, and people
10 would have the opportunity to check off on their
11 returns if they wish to contribute to that fund
12 within the city of New York and there's a home
13 rule message. It was requested by the City.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, would
15 any of the funds go to general maintenance?
16 SENATOR VELELLA: Not to my
17 knowledge.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: No, just for
19 the planting of trees.
20 SENATOR VELELLA: No, just for
21 that purpose.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: That's an
23 excellent idea. Let's sit down, Senator.
8962
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
2 the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Call
6 the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
10 bill is passed.
11 Senator Skelos.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
13 would you call up Senator Nozzolio's bill,
14 Calendar Number 1226.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1226,
16 Senator Nozzolio's bill, the Secretary will read
17 it.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 1226, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 2138, an
20 act to amend the Social Services Law and the
21 Education Law, in relation to authorizing the
22 fingerprinting of prospective employees.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read -
8963
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
3 Explanation. Senator Nozzolio.
4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
5 President.
6 My colleagues, the purpose of
7 this bill is to provide school districts across
8 New York State outside of New York City, that
9 already has access to this information, to
10 provide other school districts outside the City
11 access to the state's central registry of child
12 abuse treatment and the records of the F.B.I.
13 for the purpose of screening certain types of
14 employees such as substitute teachers,
15 consultants, artists in residence and others of
16 those who may be temporarily or permanently
17 connected with the school district who have the
18 most potential to be in regular involvement with
19 the children of our state.
20 This bill provides the authority
21 for the administrators who may be hiring
22 teachers and other school personnel access to
23 those records in order to ensure that the only
8964
1 people who are hired for these positions are
2 honorable and do not have a track record or,
3 more importantly, a criminal record of dealing
4 with children.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
6 Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
8 I'm trying to determine whether or not this is
9 an elective for the school district, if Senator
10 Nozzolio would yield and be willing to answer
11 that question.
12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'd be happy
13 to yield to Senator Paterson, Mr. President.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: That's my
15 question, Senator, is this an elective to the
16 school districts?
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: School
18 districts, they have would have an option to, at
19 their discretion, seek these records, yes.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
21 Senator. They would. Would you, Senator, be
22 willing to yield again?
23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly.
8965
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
2 Can you give us a delineation because I'm just
3 not clear, based on what the bill says, as to
4 which employees, are they temporary employees,
5 temporary and some permanent employees or what
6 are the criteria that would determine which
7 employees would be fingerprinted and would be
8 traced through the child abuse registry?
9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes. In
10 response to that, Mr. President, Section 9 of
11 the bill, page 2, line 54 beginning -- indicates
12 that the board of education may, upon its
13 discretion, require the screening of all
14 personnel to be employed by the school district
15 against those criminal records that DCJS may
16 maintain, also the registry of child abuse, et
17 cetera.
18 Those inquiries may be made on
19 behalf of any personnel who are being sought for
20 employment at the school district. I should
21 hasten to add, this is the same type of access
22 that the city of New York has had for at least
23 30 years. It's also the same type of access
8966
1 that the Legislature has deemed appropriate for
2 school bus drivers and that we're now saying
3 that that access should be provided so those who
4 are seeking other positions in school that deal
5 with children, particularly in most cases deal
6 more closely with children, have this type of
7 access upon their application for employment.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
9 Senator.
10 Mr. President, on the bill. I
11 certainly hope that, in this legislation and
12 even in what may already exist in some school
13 districts in the state, that we are scrupulously
14 careful that we not allow the information that
15 is being sought to get into the wrong hands.
16 Certainly for the benefit of children, it would
17 be manifestly important that we have access to
18 past wrongdoing on the part of employees who
19 have records of child abuse who would be in the
20 position to have contact with children.
21 At the same time, we would want
22 individuals whose past performance might be
23 requested as a matter of precaution not to have
8967
1 their records exposed in other ways that might
2 harm them as they seek employment in our school
3 system.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You can
5 read -- Senator Montgomery, why do you rise?
6 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I rise -- I
7 would like to ask if the sponsor would yield.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm
9 sure he will. Senator Nozzolio, would you yield
10 to a question from Senator Montgomery?
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
12 President.
13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
14 President.
15 Senator Nozzolio, your bill
16 requires that a second set of fingerprints be
17 forwarded to the F.B.I., is that not correct?
18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: A second set?
19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Of
20 fingerprints be forwarded to the F.B.I.
21 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Every set of
22 fingerprints taken, right now there is no,
23 Senator, fingerprinting requirement for those
8968
1 school districts outside the city of New York.
2 We're not saying that a second set be required
3 for New York. We're saying the first set be
4 required for those employees seeking employment
5 in school districts outside the city of New York
6 which already does it.
7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr.
8 President, if Senator Nozzolio would continue to
9 yield.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: I'm
11 sure he will.
12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
13 President.
14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: On page 3,
15 line 7 -- line 9, "the Division of Criminal
16 Justice Services shall forward a set of such
17 fingerprints to the Federal Bureau of
18 Investigation." So does that mean that all
19 personnel who are fingerprinted under your bill
20 will have one set forwarded to DCJS and a second
21 set forwarded to the F.B.I.?
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Every set of
23 fingerprints, once -- we're saying that this
8969
1 bill requires fingerprinting of those personnel,
2 at the discretion of school employee -- school
3 employment, that when those fingerprints are
4 taken pursuant to this chapter they then will be
5 submitted to DCJS for screening, that that
6 report is then sent to each school district upon
7 the review of those fingerprints. Then the
8 F.B.I. will then be asked to search their files
9 to see if there is a greater -- in effect, a
10 wider scrutiny to take place; so yes, Senator,
11 we're calling in the Federal Bureau of
12 Investigation to aid in the review where
13 appropriate.
14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: O.K. Senator
15 Nozzolio, if you would continue to yield.
16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Surely,
17 Senator.
18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: The -- we
19 know that the child abuse registry has a number
20 of problems and very often people are in the
21 registry without their knowledge. They are
22 reported for various reasons and it does not
23 require proof in order for you to appear -- for
8970
1 your name to appear in the registry, so does
2 your legislation protect people who may be in
3 the registry even though they're not guilty or
4 should, in fact, not have their names in such a
5 registry? Is there any -- any safety valve for
6 such a situation?
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, when
8 an applicant applies for a position, they are in
9 sum putting their entire record up for
10 scrutiny. What this bill is doing is trying to
11 get to particular aspects of an individual's
12 record. Now, if those aspects have a flag to
13 them relative to the registry, that certainly
14 raises a question that needs to be dealt with.
15 Does it preclude someone from
16 employment? No. In fact, it doesn't. It sends
17 a signal to the school district that there is a
18 person with these fingerprints, with this
19 background, this person has, in fact, been
20 subjected to contact with the child abuse
21 registry and, as such, that certainly in and of
22 itself, doesn't preclude someone from continuing
23 the employment process. It only sends a signal
8971
1 to those employers that they should be cautious
2 here that there may be some problem with the
3 applicant and that their notice is the notice
4 that we're trying to get to, to give employers
5 better notice that there may be some problem
6 here.
7 It doesn't certainly -- there are
8 problems with all types of reporting whether it
9 be credit bureau reporting or other reporting,
10 but that has to be worked through, but it
11 certainly sends up a red flag to an employer
12 that they need to proceed with caution here on
13 this prospective applicant, and that's the
14 intent of the legislation clearly.
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: O.K. Thank
16 you.
17 Mr. President, briefly on the
18 bill.
19 I would just like to respond to
20 my colleague that I think we should take
21 precaution with this legislation because, as I
22 read it with a non-legal eye, it occurs to me
23 that any person, a young person who is
8972
1 graduating from college and looking to be
2 employed with the Board of Ed' in the city of
3 New York or in any city in this state or in any
4 district in this state, or even a person who
5 wants to do some special project in a school
6 district, an artist who wants to come into a
7 classroom or come into a school district and
8 work with young people, or a person who wants to
9 do something who has spent their life in another
10 field and they want to do something in a school
11 district which we want to encourage -- police
12 officers, firemen and women, people who have
13 done work in other fields and have a tremendous
14 contribution to make. However, if they're going
15 to come and be involved with children in a
16 school district we are now requiring them not
17 only to be fingerprinted and go through the DCJS
18 of the state, but those fingerprints will be
19 forwarded to the F.B.I. so that every young
20 person who comes into -- young or old or in
21 between, who comes into a school district to
22 work and to work as a professional, to make a
23 contribution within their profession or to make
8973
1 a contribution after they've spent a lifetime in
2 another area, we're now saying to them that they
3 must have their fingerprints registered with the
4 F.B.I., and I think that is over -- that is
5 over-stepping our need to ensure that people
6 don't have criminal records.
7 I certainly would not like for my
8 son's fingerprints to be forwarded to the F.B.I.
9 just because he wanted to become a teacher with
10 the Board of Ed' in the city of New York. So I
11 view this as really over-stepping. I don't
12 think it's necessary to do that, and I don't
13 think that my colleagues in this room -
14 certainly I hope not -- are looking to have
15 people in the state of New York be subjected to
16 that kind of strenuous personal inspection just
17 because they want to work with children in a
18 school district; and as far as the registry for
19 child abuse is concerned, I would not oppose the
20 bill only because of that, but I certainly want
21 to caution you also that this is a very big
22 problem. The registry for child abuse is a very
23 imperfect system. People get their names in.
8974
1 They're not aware of their names being in there
2 and once you're in it, it's nearly impossible to
3 get out of it, to remove your name, even though
4 you may be found absolutely not guilty. So I
5 think that these -- we should really proceed
6 very cautiously on this -- this legislation.
7 I will be voting no, and I am an
8 early childhood person. I care a lot about
9 children. I understand the need to protect them
10 from individuals who may have some aspect of
11 their past that we would not want them to be
12 near children, but I certainly don't think, by
13 the same token, we need to go this far in
14 ensuring their safety.
15 So, Mr. President, I will be
16 voting no on this bill.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: You
18 want to speak? Senator Dollinger.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
20 President, will the sponsor yield to just two
21 quick questions, and they'll be short and
22 quick?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
8975
1 Senator, will you yield?
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
3 President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: He
5 will.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: First my
7 understanding is this is not a mandate, this is
8 a choice for local school districts to
9 participate.
10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: That's
11 correct, Senator.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Secondly,
13 what is the effect of this choice on the
14 collective bargaining responsibilities between a
15 school district and its labor unions?
16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
17 I believe that there's no effect. It's done as
18 an option that local school personnel can engage
19 in as a predicate to gaining employment with the
20 district, and there's already precedent
21 established for school bus drivers for the same
22 type of review and, as I mentioned earlier,
23 Senator, the city of New York already has this
8976
1 type of access available.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just through
3 you, Mr. President, one clarification question
4 then so I can clarify that answer.
5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes,
6 clarification.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is it in the
8 city of New York's experience, is it a mandatory
9 or a non-mandatory subject of bargaining with
10 respect to the relationship between the
11 teachers' union, for example, and the school
12 district?
13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I'm
14 not sure if it is even a subject of bargaining,
15 may be a part of local statute, but I can't
16 answer that question for you.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Thank
18 you, Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Read
20 the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This
22 act shall take effect September 1st.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8977
1 -- call the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll. )
3 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
4 Nozzolio to explain his vote.
5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
6 President. I rise to explain my vote.
7 Mr. President, my colleagues, two
8 years ago, a small community in my district was
9 absolutely devastated by the disclosure and
10 subsequent arrest of a sixth grade teacher, a
11 coach, who was trafficking in child pornography.
12 That teacher certainly breached a very
13 significant trust he had with the community, and
14 what made this tragedy even worse was the fact
15 that this particular individual had a prior
16 criminal record dealing in the same type of
17 activity.
18 Mr. President, my colleagues,
19 what we're trying to do here is ensure that
20 those most important individuals we have in this
21 state, and that's our children, have all the
22 protections possible when they go to school.
23 What we see across this state is a protection
8978
1 that's being breached every day and we need to
2 do more to ensure that those personnel who are
3 entrusted with this important -- very important
4 responsibility are the most trustworthy people
5 we can absolutely find.
6 I believe school personnel should
7 have the ability to seek these records of
8 criminal conduct, of other prior history when a
9 teacher applies or other school personnel
10 applies for employment. We already provide this
11 for school bus drivers. The city of New York
12 provides it for other school personnel including
13 teachers. We're asking that, in the rest of the
14 state, this protection be afforded.
15 Thank you, Mr. President. I'm
16 voting in the affirmative on this bill and urge
17 my colleagues to do likewise.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
19 Results.
20 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
21 the negative on Calendar Number 1226 are
22 Senators Montgomery and Paterson. Ayes 56, nays
23 2.
8979
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
2 bill is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar
4 Number -
5 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Hold it
6 up.
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
9 Holland.
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: With unanimous
11 consent, I'd like to be recorded in the negative
12 on Calendar Number 1220.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: 1220?
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Without
16 objection. Senator Bruno.
17 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
18 would like at this time to make an important
19 announcement in that one of our most
20 distinguished members was born on this day 59
21 years ago: Senator Holland, and we wish him a
22 very happy birthday.
23 (Applause)
8980
1 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Happy
2 birthday, Senator Holland, on behalf of all of
3 your colleagues and the world-at-large.
4 Senator Bruno.
5 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
6 can we at this time return to motions and
7 resolutions. I believe that there is a
8 privileged resolution at the desk. I would ask
9 that it be read in its entirety, and then we
10 move its adoption.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There's
12 a privileged resolution at the desk by Senator
13 Bruno. The Secretary will read it in its
14 entirety.
15 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno,
16 Legislative Resolution memorializing the
17 Honorable George E. Pataki, Governor of the
18 state of New York, to proclaim the week of June
19 12 through 18, 1995 as New York City Fire
20 fighters' week in the state of New York.
21 WHEREAS, this is a week to
22 commend the contributions to the state of New
23 York that the New York City firefighters provide
8981
1 us by responding to our needs with extreme
2 bravery at moments in our lives when we are
3 faced with injury or possible death; and
4 WHEREAS, in commemorating June 12
5 through 18, 1995 as New York City Firefighters
6 Week in the state of New York, this assembled
7 body honors those who put their life on the line
8 in the performance of their service to the
9 community and recognize the performance of
10 service by the New York City firefighters which
11 enables us to live and work with the security
12 that if endangered, they will be there to
13 protect us; and
14 WHEREAS, these brave individuals
15 often have a thankless job and people often do
16 not recognize that such individuals risk their
17 lives every day that they go to work; these
18 individuals who choose such work should be
19 commended and recognized for their efforts; and
20 WHEREAS while we show an
21 appreciation for New York City firefighters, we
22 should also take a moment to remember those
23 firefighters who have lost their lives in
8982
1 service to their communities and to remember
2 their families and their sacrifice.
3 NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED
4 that this legislative body pause in its
5 deliberations to memorialize the Honorable
6 George E. Pataki to proclaim the week of June 12
7 through 18, 1995 as New York City Firefighters
8 Week in the state of New York; and
9 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that
10 copies of this resolution, suitably engrossed,
11 be transmitted to the Honorable George E.
12 Pataki, Governor of the state of New York, and
13 to the Uniformed Firefighters Association of New
14 York City.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
16 Bruno, on the resolution.
17 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
18 it's really an honor on and a privilege for me
19 to stand in recognition of the firefighters of
20 New York City, many of whom are here in the
21 chamber with us.
22 These people, every day of their
23 lives, devote themselves to protecting the
8983
1 property and lives of others. They put
2 literally their lives on the line, and this
3 resolution does set aside and asks the Governor
4 to set aside June 12th in a very appropriate way
5 and the resolution speaks for itself, but I
6 wanted to just take a minute and add my voice in
7 recognition and thank the gentlemen and lady
8 that I see here in the chamber on behalf of all
9 of your colleagues for the good things that you
10 do for others who can't look after themselves in
11 the way that you look after them, and we know
12 that it takes a lot of time, a lot of training,
13 a lot of effort to do the kinds of things that
14 you do so well, and when you are willing to
15 literally lay your lives on the line to protect
16 others, that speaks for each and every one of
17 you in the best words that anyone could
18 express.
19 So, on behalf of my colleagues in
20 the Senate, we thank you for the good work that
21 you do and for joining us here this afternoon.
22 (Applause)
23 Mr. President, can we open up
8984
1 this resolution to all of our colleagues in the
2 chamber, and I would suggest that anyone that
3 would not want to be on it please indicate so,
4 but I would think that this would be a unanimous
5 resolution.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
7 resolution is opened and will be sponsored by
8 every member of the Senate unless you object.
9 Senator Maltese, I think you
10 wished to speak on this.
11 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. I can add
12 very little to the words of our distinguished
13 Majority Leader. I think that many members of
14 this house know that my family, in the early
15 days of the 1900s, suffered a tragic loss on
16 March 24th, 1911, where the Triangle Shirtwaist
17 factory fire tragedy occurred, and 127 people
18 perished in that fire. The firefighters of the
19 City at that time had to face very poor
20 equipment, ladders that did not reach the
21 persons who were trapped in the burning building
22 and who were forced to jump to their deaths.
23 The firefighters are aptly called
8985
1 the bravest. The firefighters of the city of
2 New York daily face occurrences that would
3 frighten any of us. They face a battle that
4 many men in the armed forces had to face in the
5 past or face only from time to time. They face
6 these every day and each morning when they leave
7 their homes do not know that they will be able
8 to return.
9 So, Mr. President, I proudly join
10 in the co-sponsorship of this resolution to the
11 brave men and women of the firefighters of the
12 city of New York.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Montgomery, on the resolution.
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
16 President.
17 I would like to also thank the
18 Majority Leader for opening up the resolution.
19 I think it's important for us to, each one of us
20 in this chamber, to say how much we appreciate
21 the firemen and women who serve us in our
22 districts, and let me just say that one special
23 thank you to the fire department for how open it
8986
1 is to young people, that I've never had a
2 company refuse a group of young people, of
3 students to come in, and the firemen and women
4 take time and help them understand what the fire
5 department does, what firemen and women do, what
6 the ladders do, how they work and that sort of
7 thing and, in addition to that, there is a
8 wonderful group -- I don't know if it's here
9 today in the chamber with us -- but there is a
10 wonderful group that comes out into the
11 community and does skits and they have songs and
12 they have a whole presentation for very young
13 children to help them understand how to protect
14 themselves and how to keep from having -
15 endangering their lives by -- by engaging in
16 behaviors that would cause fires.
17 So I think this is really not
18 only does the fire department protect us and
19 save our lives, but it also is engaged in
20 educating young people, and I want to say a
21 special thank you for that. So I want to also
22 be on the resolution. Thank you.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
8987
1 DiCarlo, on the resolution.
2 SENATOR DiCARLO: Thank you, Mr.
3 President.
4 It is indeed a pleasure to rise
5 in support of this resolution. I'm very proud
6 to be a co-sponsor, and I rise to thank the
7 firefighters of New York City not on my behalf
8 only but on behalf of my constituents in
9 Brooklyn and Staten Island. We're proud of the
10 work that you do and keep up the good work.
11 I'm very proud to co-sponsor this
12 legislation. Thank you.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
14 Connor, on the resolution.
15 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
16 President.
17 As the leader of the Democrats in
18 this house, I did want to particularly speak to
19 this resolution and, of course, as a citizen of
20 New York City and a resident of Brooklyn, I feel
21 a very personal debt of gratitude to New York
22 City's firefighters.
23 I know all of my colleagues join
8988
1 me in thanking them for their day in and day out
2 efforts. Our constituents depend so very, very
3 much on the extraordinary efforts and dedication
4 of New York's bravest.
5 The firefighters are in all of
6 our neighborhoods, you know. We see their
7 efforts all of the time. The day in and day out
8 dedication and courage which they display are
9 indeed remarkable and a city such as New York
10 City, such as a densely populated urban area
11 simply couldn't exist, it couldn't function, its
12 residents couldn't aspire to any degree of
13 safety, were it not for the professionalism and
14 dedication of New York City's firefighters.
15 Thank you, Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: Senator
17 Leibell, on the resolution.
18 SENATOR LEIBELL: Mr. President,
19 if I could just echo the comments that have been
20 made already by my colleagues to compliment the
21 fine men and women who all 365 days and nights
22 of the year risk their lives and their health
23 and their entire existence so that our citizens
8989
1 can be safe.
2 I'm pleased to have so many who
3 live in my district who have chosen this
4 calling. Many of them are my friends socially
5 and friends of my family. I'm pleased that they
6 could join with us here today. They perform one
7 of the most hazardous and dangerous tasks that
8 could be performed in our state today, and they
9 do it with great pride.
10 Thank you, sir.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: On the
12 resolution, all those in favor please say aye.
13 (Response of "Aye.")
14 Those opposed, nay.
15 (There was no response. )
16 The resolution is unanimously
17 adopted.
18 (Applause)
19 I think it is evident from the
20 applause and from the unanimous passage, the
21 esteem with which the firefighters -
22 professional firefighters are held by this
23 chamber. We wish you well. Congratulations on
8990
1 the fine job that you do. We're delighted to
2 have you come visit us here today and come back
3 and see us again.
4 Senator Bruno.
5 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
6 there will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
7 Committee in Room 332.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: There
9 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
10 Committee in Room 332. Senator Hoffmann.
11 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr. President,
12 I was out of the chamber at the time a vote was
13 recorded on Calendar Number 91 and Calendar
14 Number 994. Had I been present, I would have
15 been recorded in the affirmative on both those
16 items. Could the record so reflect?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY: The
18 record will so state.
19 Senator Nozzolio, could you spell
20 me while I go to Rules.
21 Senator Bruno.
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
23 can we at this time return to the controversial
8991
1 calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT FARLEY:
3 Controversial calendar. Secretary will read.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 1238, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 4903A, an
6 act to amend the General Business Law, in
7 relation to itinerant vendors.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
10 Explanation is asked for. Senator Sears.
11 SENATOR SEARS: Thank you, Mr.
12 President.
13 This bill adds a new section to
14 the General Business Law to define the term
15 "itinerant vendors" and prohibit the sale of
16 drugs and food manufactured and packaged for
17 children under age two by such persons.
18 Itinerant vendors are those
19 vendors who sell their goods at a flea market
20 type operation. Many of the drug store products
21 sold by itinerant vendors, such as baby food and
22 non-prescription drugs, are frequently stolen by
23 professional shoplifters.
8992
1 The handling and storage of this
2 merchandise, once outside the controlled
3 environment of a pharmacy, is highly suspect.
4 As a result, the stability of the product can
5 not be guaranteed. In addition, many of the
6 products sold by itinerant vendors are
7 non-prescription medication that may be subject
8 to product recalls. These recalls will vary
9 from serious mislabeling to serious
10 life-threatening contamination.
11 Once this merchandise is outside
12 the normal distribution channels, these product
13 recalls become meaningless.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Paterson.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
17 if the sponsor would yield?
18 SENATOR SEARS: Yes.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Sponsor yields.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I
22 gather you were trying to actually define what
23 is meant by the itinerant vendor under the law
8993
1 and I see that you've exempted farmers' markets
2 and you have exempted certain itinerant vendors.
3 You have not exempted flea markets, but that's,
4 I guess, specifically what you were trying to
5 do. Can you explain to us why that's the case?
6 SENATOR SEARS: Why we didn't
7 include farmers' markets under the legislation?
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, we did.
9 We exempted them, is that correct?
10 SENATOR SEARS: Oh, I see. I
11 don't know whether we exempted farmers' markets
12 or not.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, under the
14 bill, Senator, it says that farmers' markets are
15 exempted and licensed peddlers are exempted and
16 what I'm asking, is there a difference between
17 them and the regular flea market? And I guess
18 that would relate to why you chose to draft the
19 legislation, and that is what I'm trying to
20 determine.
21 SENATOR SEARS: Let me -- let me
22 temporarily lay the bill aside until I can get
23 you the answer to that question.
8994
1 SENATOR PATERSON: All right.
2 Thank you very much, Senator.
3 SENATOR SEARS: Yes, sir.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
5 is temporarily laid aside.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 1239, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 5027A, an
8 act to amend Chapter 2....
9 SENATOR VELELLA: Lay it aside
10 for the day, please.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Bill
12 is laid aside for the day.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 1240, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 5141, an
15 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city
16 of New York.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Explanation is asked for. Senator Maltese.
20 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
21 this bill is at the request of the city of New
22 York. It creates a new subdivision to allow for
23 a tax credit against New York City general cor
8995
1 poration tax for the amount of sales and use
2 taxes paid after January 1st, 1995 with respect
3 to the services of installing, repairing,
4 maintaining or servicing machinery, equipment,
5 parts, tools and supplies used or consumed in
6 production. The -- among the industries who
7 will benefit is the film industry.
8 This was intended as an economic
9 development initiative to provide relief to
10 businesses that purchase or use services in
11 connection with the production of tangible
12 personal property. It would bring the city
13 sales tax into conformity with the state sales
14 tax with respect to such services and eliminate
15 taxpayer confusion in this area of sales tax
16 law.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: A
18 local fiscal impact not is at the desk.
19 Senator Paterson.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
21 for purposes of sales and use tax, if the
22 sponsor would yield for a question.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
8996
1 Sponsor yield?
2 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
4 Sponsor yields.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
6 Maltese, you said that among the industries that
7 would benefit from the legislation would be the
8 film industry. What I'd like to know is what
9 other industry other than the film industry
10 would benefit.
11 SENATOR MALTESE: From my
12 understanding, the reason I mentioned, Mr.
13 President -- the reason I mentioned the film
14 industry is that the film industry was active in
15 soliciting with the city of New York and with
16 state officials as well as myself, the passage
17 of this, but my understanding is that it is not
18 an -- within the confines of the law that they
19 would not be the only industry, that any
20 industry that would be able to fit within the
21 definition would be able to -- whether they were
22 incorporated or unincorporated, would still be
23 able to avail themselves of this tax credit. It
8997
1 would be any industry that -
2 SENATOR PATERSON: I understand.
3 Mr. President.
4 SENATOR MALTESE: -- that is
5 operating within the city of New York.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: If Senator
7 Maltese would continue to yield.
8 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
10 Senator Maltese continues to yield.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: My question
12 is, are you aware of any industry through your
13 research, as the prerequisite to writing the
14 legislation, are you aware of any other industry
15 that would -- that would benefit from the
16 legislation and, in addition to that, I'm just
17 wondering what the cost to New York City would
18 be to provide this tax credit?
19 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
20 referring first to the subsequent question, the
21 city of New York has indicated that they felt
22 their costs would be negligible and, in
23 addition, as is also evidenced by the fiscal
8998
1 impact note, and also have indicated that they
2 felt whatever costs would be far negated by the
3 economic development aspects of it.
4 As far as other industries, it
5 would seem to me that any industry that deals in
6 services rather than tangible property as far as
7 purchasing goes for use in their ultimate
8 product, whether it is tangible or intangible,
9 would be able to avail themselves of this
10 benefit. So it would seem that if the bill is
11 passed, it is presently also in the Assembly, we
12 would hope that all businesses would also be
13 able to avail themselves of this opportunity.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr.
15 President, I guess you can have the Secretary
16 read the last section.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
22 the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8999
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
3 bill is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 1242, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 5276A, an
6 act to amend the Executive Law and others, in
7 relation to extending the Office of Business
8 Permits.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
10 the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 14. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
14 the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
18 bill is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1243, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5300, an
21 act to amend the Tax Law and the Administrative
22 Code of the city of New York, in relation to
23 repealing the sales and use taxes.
9000
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: A
3 local fiscal impact note is at the desk.
4 Explanation is asked for.
5 Senator DiCarlo.
6 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President,
7 this bill would repeal the New York City sales
8 tax imposed on interior design services. The
9 tax is anti-competitive. It drives business out
10 of New York, which is the only major city and
11 the only city on the east coast which imposes
12 such a tax.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
14 the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
16 act shall take effect December 1st.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
18 the roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll. )
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
22 bill is passed.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9001
1 1246, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 5385, an
2 act in relation to the election of delegates to
3 a national party convention.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explanation.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
6 Explanation is asked for. Senator Maltese.
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
8 as in past years, this bill is before the house
9 and before both the Assembly and the Senate. It
10 is an agreed-upon bill and as has been the norm
11 in prior Presidential years, each of the two
12 major political parties has made up their own
13 rules and regulations in conformity with the
14 rules and regulations of their respective state
15 committees, and this bill is that product of
16 many long hours and much work.
17 Basically it is in relation to
18 the election of delegates to the Presidential
19 nominating convention, and the Republican part
20 first. The bill -- and, by the way, the bill
21 is -- has incorporated within it very much of
22 the wording and provisions of the prior bill,
23 the 1991 Presidential delegate bill.
9002
1 It -- it incorporates all changes
2 that would provide election not only for the
3 Presidential delegates and the Presidential
4 candidates but also provides that any state,
5 county committee members, district leaders,
6 would be elected at the fall primary rather than
7 the spring primary.
8 The purpose for this was to
9 separate and keep apart the elections for the
10 Presidential delegates and the Presidential
11 candidates, so thus we have a calendar which
12 would apply only to the Presidential delegates
13 which would -- is set forth in the bill so that
14 the last day to file the party call would be
15 November 14th and if sets forth certain dates so
16 that Presidential candidates can authorize their
17 own delegates, and so that you do not have a
18 situation where unauthorized delegates are
19 competing against authorized delegates without
20 the consent of the Presidential candidate.
21 In addition, if the Presidential
22 candidate does not authorize a certain delegate,
23 those delegates would have the option to then
9003
1 run as uncommitted delegates, thus enabling
2 persons' constituents in the district or party
3 members to vote for delegates, as well as
4 Presidential candidates.
5 The qualifications of the -- for
6 the Republican plan and Democratic plan alike
7 are for the delegates to reside within the
8 district and be an enrolled party member of that
9 party in order to run. The Republican plan
10 basically is, and I'll read, Delegates will be
11 continued to be elected at the primary for each
12 Congressional District, and you would have thus
13 three delegates, three alternates from each
14 Congressional District, plus at-large
15 delegates. The at-large delegates would not be
16 -- would not be an excessive number but they
17 would be selected at -- by the state committee
18 at a state committee meeting for that purpose.
19 The Democratic plan is somewhat
20 more complex, but there would be 159 pledged
21 delegates to be elected from 31 Congressional
22 Districts allocated by a formula based 50
23 percent on population and 50 percent on average
9004
1 of Democratic votes for President in the last
2 two elections. Each district would have not
3 less than four, not more than six delegates and
4 the rules would be the same as far as being
5 residents of the district. The party also has
6 indicated that they would permit optional
7 allocations of delegate positions by gender.
8 The -- the rules for signature in
9 the Democratic petition, they could appear,
10 Presidential candidates could appear on the
11 ballot by filing petitions with the signature
12 requirements of one-third of that for other
13 statewide petitions would be 5,000, and those
14 5,000 valid signatures would have no geographic
15 requirement; thus, for instance, all of them
16 could be gathered in one county if that were
17 feasible.
18 The -- in addition, the
19 Democratic rules provide that candidates for
20 district delegates must file certificates of
21 candidacy with their state committee not earlier
22 than November 28th, thus resulting in the fact
23 that, if a candidate does not -- I'm sorry, not
9005
1 earlier than November 28th and not later than
2 January 8th. Thus, if a candidate for delegate
3 in the Democratic Presidential primary does not
4 file by January 8th, even if a proper petition
5 were filed, he would not be able to run for the
6 office.
7 Again, the rules are the same. A
8 Presidential candidate would have the right to
9 veto a proposed delegate slate. Let's see,
10 individual delegates.
11 Basically that's it, Mr.
12 President. The signature, the rules for
13 gathering signatures, would remain the same as
14 for Congressional candidates. The requirement
15 for Congressional candidates would be the same,
16 1250 in each Congressional District or 5 percent
17 if the 5 percent of the enrolled members in that
18 Congressional District were less than 1250.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Thanks you, Senator Maltese.
21 Senator Dollinger.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Sponsor yield
23 for a question?
9006
1 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
3 Senator Maltese, will you yield? Senator
4 yields.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator,
6 there's a prospect that in 1996 there may be
7 other than major party candidates running for
8 president. What and how -- what, if at all or
9 how, if at all, does this bill affect the
10 prospect of a third-party candidate who would be
11 a member of a recognized, or who would be
12 nominated by a recognized, quote, party here in
13 New York State? There are now six recognized
14 parties which met the 50,000-vote requirement
15 under the last election.
16 My question is, how do they
17 handle their nomination for President?
18 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes. Mr.
19 President, this only affects the two major
20 parties, the Republican and Democrat. It does
21 not affect the remainder of the organized
22 political parties within the state of New York.
23 Their party rules would provide for their own
9007
1 method of selection and, for instance, I'm most
2 familiar with the Conservative Party rules.
3 They would select their Presidential candidate
4 by meetings of the state committee but, if the
5 political parties, especially the newly
6 organized ones with less members, would choose,
7 for instance, to have it with whatever meeting
8 they chose, whatever method they chose, they
9 would then be free to meet and choose their
10 Presidential candidates by that method. It
11 would not even require the circulation of
12 petitions for their Presidential candidates if
13 they chose to do it by meetings of -- by giving
14 that responsibility to pre-elected members,
15 members, for instance, who might be previously
16 elected to a county office or state office in
17 that political party.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through
19 you, Mr. President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
21 Senator Dollinger.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just explain
23 to me, Senator, how then a minor party, for
9008
1 example, the Independent Party or Independence
2 Party, whatever they're called, how could they
3 conduct a primary for their nomination for
4 President in this state, for example, if they
5 decided to do it?
6 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
8 Senator Maltese.
9 SENATOR MALTESE: It would depend
10 on their party rules. There are many instances
11 where it is either extremely difficult or impos
12 sible especially in so-called minor parties, for
13 parties to conduct primaries. We have, for
14 instance, rules relating to judicial conventions
15 where party rules apply and make it almost
16 impossible for so-called insurgents to secure
17 party nominations.
18 They always have the option of
19 pursuing an independent candidacy. In this
20 case, especially for the minor parties, they
21 would have to comply with party rules. That
22 doesn't mean it's impossible. They would, for
23 instance, in various of the so-called minor
9009
1 parties, be able to solicit those minor parties
2 for their Presidential endorsement and be able
3 to be on the ballot simply because that -
4 so-called minor party has already secured an
5 official position on the ballot by securing the
6 necessary 50,000 votes in the last gubernatorial
7 election.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through
9 you, Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Senator Dollinger.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Let me focus
13 on the Conservative Party, the one that you're
14 most familiar with.
15 There is a prospect that there
16 will be several Republican Presidential
17 contenders who would, in eyeing New York State,
18 think that they might be an appropriate
19 candidate for the New York State Conservative
20 Party to endorse for the office of President.
21 How, under the current rules, and
22 again I'm assuming this is germane to this bill,
23 how under the current rules would that candidate
9010
1 trigger a primary? Is there a capability that
2 they can under current rules and current?
3 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President.
4 Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
6 Senator Maltese.
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
8 I can't speak for the rules currently in effect
9 because they can be amended from time to time
10 and may very well be amended prior to the
11 Presidential primary in 1996, but if they had
12 been -- if there had been more than one
13 candidate, as there has been in the past, the
14 method would be to convince the present members
15 of the state committee and the present members
16 of the executive committee of the Conservative
17 Party so that a Presidential candidate -- and I
18 have no doubt there probably will be a -
19 although I do not presume to speak for the
20 Conservative Party, there probably will be a
21 Presidential candidates' forum at which
22 candidates would be interviewed, their views
23 solicited, and then they would pursue the votes
9011
1 of the individual state committeemen.
2 Of course, we have the
3 Wilson-Pakula which is in existence in New York
4 State and named after former Governor Wilson and
5 State Senator Irwin Pakula, which would make it
6 a prerequisite that a Presidential candidate
7 just like any other candidate would have to, in
8 addition, secure the authorization of the state
9 executive committee in order to run as a
10 Presidential candidate.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through you,
12 Mr. President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
14 Senator Dollinger. Does Senator Maltese
15 continue to yield?
16 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes, if you
18 would.
19 Continue my education, if you
20 would, for a moment, Senator. Why in the state
21 of New York do we put the party rules for
22 Presidential primaries into law for the two
23 major parties and yet we don't require any legal
9012
1 enactment into law for the same rules for the
2 minor parties which may run from Conservative to
3 Independent to Right to Life to I guess the Tax
4 Cut Now is now a recognized party.
5 SENATOR MALTESE: Well, Mr.
6 President -
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Why do we do
8 one and not the other?
9 SENATOR MALTESE: Well, Mr.
10 President, to my knowledge, and I've only been
11 chairman of the Election Committee since January
12 of this year, no other party has approached me
13 or any other member and there is no present bill
14 that has been submitted to me or, so far as I
15 know, to the Senate to codify or legislate party
16 rules. It seems to me that in this democratic
17 process and in the state of New York, we are
18 better served by, in certain instances, keeping
19 our nose out of the business of some of these
20 political parties who choose to run their own
21 party affairs and, in the absence of complaints
22 that these parties are undemocratic, with a
23 small "d", I think we should continue that wise
9013
1 course.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through
3 you, Mr. President, if the sponsor will continue
4 to yield.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Does
6 Senator Maltese continue to yield? Senator
7 continues to yields.
8 Senator Dollinger.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This bill,
10 Senator, is a reflection of a general rule in
11 New York that we like primaries, that we want
12 the political parties to be involved, that we
13 want to give people the opportunity to have
14 their voice heard at the ballot box, at least as
15 far as the nomination for President of the
16 United States goes.
17 My question is, why doesn't that
18 same logic drive our consideration of minor
19 parties, and why don't they conform to the same
20 general rules that are permitted here, which is
21 circulate nominating petitions, have the ability
22 to go to the ballot box? Why the difference in
23 philosophy between the way we treat the major
9014
1 parties and the minor parties?
2 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
3 I thought for a moment my ears deceived me, that
4 Senator Dollinger would look to encumber the
5 process and make the democratic process more
6 difficult for the minor parties.
7 I'm advised that the major -- two
8 so-called major parties, they are, of course,
9 national parties. That is the difference
10 between them and the state parties that are
11 presently organized under our legislation in New
12 York State. Thus, in order to nominate a
13 national candidate in the 50 states, there are
14 certain rules and regulations promulgated by the
15 national committees of those two parties in
16 order to have some uniformity so that, for
17 instance, Hawaii and Alaska don't come in with
18 500 delegates and perhaps New York and
19 California come in with 125. So there are
20 certain rules that are universal for all 50
21 states, and New York State thus is required by
22 the national committees to codify certain -
23 certain rules and regulations to be consistent
9015
1 with those national rules.
2 The state parties and all the
3 other state parties that we have in New York,
4 Conservative, Liberal, Right to Life, and so on,
5 are state parties only, and while they are
6 somewhat identified and loosely connected with
7 perhaps some national organizations, they are
8 run totally within New York State with their
9 offices and members elected by New York State
10 voters who are -- who have chosen to identify
11 with those political parties.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again through
13 you, Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Dollinger.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I apologize.
17 I don't mean this to be redundant. I just want
18 to make sure I've got a clear answer. What is
19 the rationale for having the major parties do
20 primaries at the ballot to nominate their
21 candidate versus the small parties being able to
22 do it by party rule in convention? What's the
23 difference between those two?
9016
1 SENATOR MALTESE: I think, Mr.
2 President, if the minor parties chose to do it
3 by primaries, they could do so and we would, I
4 would at any rate, be responsive to their wishes
5 and put in legislation, but I think especially
6 considering the smaller number of enrollees,
7 that we would have an obligation on the state
8 level to -- to look to the fiscal impact of
9 codifying and legislating where relatively few
10 people are involved.
11 I don't think at this time that
12 is a factor. Right now, we are simply
13 responding to the obligation of legislating
14 because that makes us consistent with the
15 national rules and regulations, and the
16 rationale as far as the smaller political
17 parties are concerned, I hope is that wherever
18 possible let's keep our noses out of their
19 business.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just on the
21 bill, Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Senator Dollinger, on the bill.
9017
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This is the
2 first time I've had a chance to really think
3 about the philosophy underlying this and, while
4 I guess as a member of a major party, I'm
5 cognizant of our obligations to protect major
6 parties and to do what major parties want, I
7 can't understand why we do it for major parties
8 or set up a series of rules for major parties
9 that we don't enforce for minor parties as
10 well.
11 Minor parties in this state, as
12 everybody in this room knows, has had a major
13 impact on the future of this state. There's
14 someone that lives working on the second floor
15 who, at least to the best of my recount,
16 wouldn't be here but for a minor party, and I
17 think that in recognition of the rising status
18 of minor parties, be they Independent or Tax Cut
19 Now, or whatever they want to call themselves, I
20 think we ought to set up a uniform series of
21 rules and have everybody comply with those and
22 get away from the notion that parties can
23 function or mandate what government should do.
9018
1 My understanding is it should go
2 the other way around and, for that reason, Mr.
3 President, although I ask -- I hope it's not
4 interpreted as any comment on the contents of
5 this bill or the work that the chairman has had
6 with the major parties it seems to me
7 philosophically I'm opposed to this bill.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
9 the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
13 Senator Montgomery, why do you rise?
14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I -- just a
15 brief clarification question for the sponsor?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Senator Maltese, do you yield? Senator yields.
18 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator
20 Maltese, this is an agreed upon legislation. If
21 we vote on this today it goes, it's between the
22 two houses?
23 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes Mr. -
9019
1 yes.
2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: O.K. Thank
3 you.
4 SENATOR MALTESE: One -- oh, I'll
5 explain my vote.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
7 the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
11 the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
14 Senator Maltese to explain his vote.
15 SENATOR MALTESE: Just very
16 briefly and in partial response to Senator
17 Dollinger, I think the difference is that on the
18 national conventions, there is a national
19 convention and that with the smaller state
20 parties, their state convention amounts in their
21 cases to a national convention because those
22 delegates have no national convention to go to.
23 With respect vis-a-vis the
9020
1 Conservative Party, for instance, in the
2 ordinary sense since the early nominations of
3 Presidential candidates in the Republican Party,
4 they've chosen to go to the Republican
5 nominating conventions because their candidates
6 were the same, were one and the same.
7 I vote aye, Mr. Chairman -- Mr.
8 President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
10 Senator Maltese votes aye. Announce the
11 results.
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57, nays
13 one, Senator Dollinger recorded in the
14 negative.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
16 bill is passed.
17 SENATOR VELELLA: At this time,
18 Mr. President, I recognize Senator Mendez -- ask
19 the Chair to recognize Senator Mendez.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
21 Senator Mendez.
22 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr.
23 President.
9021
1 Mr. President, I have the honor
2 of presenting to my colleagues here in the
3 Senate today some Senators from -- from -- from
4 Ascuncion, from Paraguay. They have been
5 visiting with Christopher Zimmerman in a study
6 group of the National State Legislature
7 Conference, and so, visiting and sitting over
8 there we have Dr. Diego Abente Brun, Dr. Armando
9 Vicente Espinola, Senator Fernando Martinez. We
10 have also the Director of the budget of
11 Paraguay, Honorable Ruben Minarro, and Dr.
12 Dionisio Borda, Director of the Economics
13 Division of the government.
14 So that it is my privilege to
15 introduce them. They have been visiting other
16 state legislatures throughout the country, and
17 we're very appreciative of the fact that they're
18 here in New York in this great chamber of ours
19 visiting and trading impressions with us.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Thank
21 you, Senator Mendez.
22 On behalf of Senator Mendez, our
23 Majority Leader, Senator Bruno, and all of the
9022
1 Senate, we welcome these distinguished officials
2 from Paraguay. Welcome to New York.
3 (Applause)
4 Senator Velella.
5 SENATOR VELELLA: Can we just see
6 if there's any housekeeping?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
8 Senator DiCarlo.
9 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President,
10 on behalf of Senator Goodman, I wish to call up
11 his bill, Print Number 917, recalled from the
12 Assembly which is now at the desk.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
14 Secretary will read.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1051, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 917, an
17 act to amend the Civil Rights Law, in relation
18 to prohibiting the non-consentual use of a
19 person's voice.
20 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President,
21 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this
22 bill was passed.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
9023
1 the roll on reconsideration.
2 (The Secretary called the roll on
3 reconsideration. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
6 Senator DiCarlo.
7 SENATOR DiCARLO: I offer up the
8 following amendments.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
10 Amendments received and adopted.
11 Senator DiCarlo.
12 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President,
13 on behalf of Senator Saland, I wish to call up
14 bill Print Number 2113A, recalled from the
15 Assembly which is now at the desk.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Secretary will read.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 425, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2113A, an
20 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation
21 to authorizing the court to permit a
22 petitioner.
23 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President,
9024
1 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this
2 bill was passed.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
4 the roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll on
6 reconsideration. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
8 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President,
9 I now offer the following amendments.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Amendments received and adopted.
12 Senator DiCarlo.
13 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President,
14 on page 38, I offer the following amendments to
15 Calendar 1198, Senate Print 3817A, and ask that
16 said bill retain its place on Third Reading
17 Calendar.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Amendments received and adopted.
20 SENATOR DiCARLO: Mr. President,
21 on behalf of Senator LaValle, on page 8, I offer
22 the following amendments to Calendar 271, Senate
23 Print 3292, and ask that said bill retain its
9025
1 place on Third Reading Calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
3 Amendments received and adopted.
4 Senator Marcellino.
5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
6 President, on behalf of Senator Cook, on page
7 number 13, I offer the following amendments to
8 Calendar Number 511, Senate Print number 4246,
9 and ask that said bill retain its place on the
10 Third Reading Calendar.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
12 Amendments received and adopted.
13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
14 President, also on behalf of Senator Cook, on
15 page number 13, I offer the following amendments
16 to Calendar Number 512, Senate Print 4247, and
17 ask that said bill retain its place on the Third
18 Reading Calendar.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Amendments received and adopted.
21 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
22 President, also on behalf of Senator Cook, on
23 page number 13, I offer the following amendments
9026
1 to Calendar Number 513, Senate Print 4238, and
2 ask that said bill retain its place on the Third
3 Reading Calendar.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
5 Amendments received and adopted.
6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
7 President, on behalf of Senator Tully, on page
8 number 36, I offer the following amendments to
9 Calendar Number 1239, Senate Print number 5027
10 A, and ask that said bill retain its place on
11 the Third Reading Calendar.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
13 Amendments received and adopted.
14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
15 President, I wish to call up Senator Kuhl's
16 bill, Print Number 3667, recalled from the
17 Assembly which is now at the desk.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Secretary will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 335, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3667, an act
22 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law.
23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
9027
1 President, I now move to reconsider the vote by
2 which this bill was passed.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
4 the roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll on
6 reconsideration. )
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
9 Senator Marcellino.
10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
11 President, I now offer the following
12 amendments.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
14 Amendments received and adopted.
15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
16 sir.
17 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Senator Wright.
20 SENATOR WRIGHT: Mr. President, I
21 request unanimous consent to be recorded in the
22 negative on Calendar Number 1219, Senate 3891.
23 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President,
9028
1 could we return to the reports of standing
2 committees?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
4 Secretary will read it.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
6 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
7 following bills:
8 Senate Print 138A, by Senator
9 Holland, an act to amend the Social Services Law
10 and the Executive Law, in relation to providing
11 an automobile as essential personal property;
12 637A, by Senator DiCarlo, an act
13 to amend the Penal Law, in relation to unlawful
14 possession of a box cutter;
15 991, by Senator Present, an act
16 to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
17 coverage for mammography screening;
18 1281, by Senator Rath, an act to
19 amend the State Finance Law, in relation to
20 requiring a regulatory budget;
21 1468, by Senator Holland, an act
22 to amend the Social Services Law, in relation to
23 requiring an address;.
9029
1 1619B, by Senator Goodman, an act
2 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
3 relation to mandatory suspensions;
4 2278, by Senator Hoblock, an act
5 to amend the Labor Law, in relation to excluding
6 from an employer's experience rating charge;
7 2761A, by Senator Skelos, an act
8 in relation to the duration of the eligible
9 lists for police officer;
10 3078, by Senator Babbush, an act
11 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
12 relation to changing the color of certain police
13 vehicles offered for sale;
14 Senate Print 3586A, by Senator
15 Goodman, an act to amend the Tax Law, in
16 relation to the delivery of wage reporting
17 information;
18 3692A, by Senator Velella, an act
19 to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
20 requiring Certified Public Accountant reports of
21 Article 34 corporations;
22 3950B, by Senator Tully, an act
23 to amend the Public Health Law and the Executive
9030
1 Law, in relation to residential hospices;
2 4455, by Senator Hoblock, an act
3 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
4 display of the prisoner of war and missing in
5 action flag and making an appropriation
6 therefor;
7 4746A, by Senator Saland, an act
8 in relation to authorizing the city of Beacon,
9 county of Dutchess, to opt out of the provisions
10 of Chapter 602;
11 4807A, by Senator Maziarz, an act
12 to provide benefit options to surviving spouses
13 of certain deceased members of the New York
14 State Teachers' Retirement System;
15 5087A, by Senator Kuhl, an act to
16 amend the Retirement and Social Security Law, in
17 relation to authorizing the Keuka Lake Watershed
18 Improvement Cooperative;
19 5174, by Senator Espada, an act
20 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its
21 interest in certain real property required by in
22 rem tax foreclosure;
23 5210, by Senator Mendez, an act
9031
1 to authorize the Commissioner of General
2 Services to sell certain state lands in the city
3 of New York;
4 5293, by Senator Kuhl, an act to
5 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation
6 to permitting the use of certain racks for
7 carrying hay, straw or unthrashed grain;.
8 5372, by Senator LaValle, an act
9 to amend Chapter 311 of the Laws of 1920,
10 relating to the assessment and collection of
11 taxes in Suffolk County;.
12 3873A, by Senator Marchi, an act
13 to amend the Real Property Law, in relation to
14 establishing a New York State real estate board;
15 4142, by Senator Kruger, an act
16 to allow Jack Walfish, a retired member of the
17 New York State Teachers Retirement System, to
18 purchase military credit.
19 All bills ordered directly for
20 third reading.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
22 Senator Velella.
23 SENATOR VELELLA: Can we proceed
9032
1 to calendar -- Supplemental Calendar 2, non
2 controversial reading of the calendar.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
4 Without objection, all bills reported to third
5 reading.
6 There's a substitution at the
7 desk.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Please make the
9 substitution.
10 THE SECRETARY: On page 5,
11 Senator Lack moves to discharge from the
12 Committee on Judiciary, Assembly Bill Number
13 3222-A and substitute it for the identical
14 Calendar Number 110.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
16 substitution -
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Senator Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: If we at this
21 time could take up Senate Supplemental Calendar
22 Number 2, non-controversial.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
9033
1 clerk will read the non-controversial calendar.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1237, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 138-A, an
4 act to amend the Social Services Law and the
5 Executive Law, in relation to providing an
6 automobile as essential personal property.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
9 bill is laid aside.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1247, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 637-A, an
12 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
13 unlawful possession of a box cutter.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
15 section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
17 act shall take effect on the first day of
18 November.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
20 the roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll.)
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
9034
1 bill is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1248, by Senator Present, Senate Print 991, an
4 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
5 coverage for mammography screening.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
7 section.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Lay
10 it aside.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 1249, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 1281, an act
13 to amend the State Finance Law, in relation to
14 requiring a regulatory budget.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
17 bill is laid aside.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 1250, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 1468, an
20 act to amend the Social Services Law, in
21 relation to requiring an address as a condition
22 of receiving assistance.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
9035
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
2 bill is laid aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 1251, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 1619-B,
5 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
6 relation to mandatory suspensions.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
8 section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect 30 days.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
12 Announce the results.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
16 bill is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 1252, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 2278, an
19 act to amend the Labor Law, in relation to
20 excluding from an employer's experience rating
21 charge the voluntary separation from last
22 employment.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
9036
1 section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
5 the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
9 bill is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1253, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 2761-A, an
12 act in relation to the duration of the eligible
13 list for police officer in the county of Nassau.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Home
15 rule message at the desk.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
18 bill is laid aside.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1254, by Senator Babbush, Senate Print 3078, an
21 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
22 relation to changing the color of certain police
23 vehicles offered for resale.
9037
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
2 section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
6 the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
10 bill is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 1255, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 3586-A,
13 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to the
14 delivery of wage reporting information.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
16 section.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
19 bill is laid aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1256, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 3692-A,
22 an act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation
23 to requiring the certified public accountant
9038
1 reports.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
3 bill is high. Lay it aside.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully
5 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules,
6 Assembly Bill Number 5864-B and substitute it
7 for the identical Calendar Number 1257.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
9 substitution -
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1257, by Member of the Assembly Luster, Assembly
12 Print 5864-B, an act to amend the Public Health
13 Law and the Executive Law, in relation to
14 residential hospices.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
16 section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
20 the roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll.)
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
9039
1 bill is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1258, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 4455, an
4 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
5 display of the prisoner of war and missing in
6 action flag and making an appropriation
7 therefor.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
9 the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
11 act shall take effect on the 120th day.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
13 the roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
17 bill is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 1259, by Senator Saland -
20 SENATOR SALAND: Lay it aside for
21 the day.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
23 bill is laid aside for the day.
9040
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 1260, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 4807-A -
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
4 bill is laid aside.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 1262, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 5087-A -
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for
8 the day.
9 THE SECRETARY: -- an act to
10 amend the Retirement and Social Security Law.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for
12 the day.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
14 bill is laid aside for the day.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1263, by Senator Espada, Senate Print 5174, an
17 act authorizing the city of New York to reconvey
18 its interest in certain real property.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: There
20 is no home rule message at the desk. Lay the
21 bill aside.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 1264, by Senator Mendez, Senate Print 5210, an
9041
1 act to authorize the Commissioner of General
2 Services to sell certain state lands in the city
3 of New York.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
5 section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
9 the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
13 bill is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 1265, by Senator Kuhl -
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for
17 the day.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
19 bill is laid aside for the day.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1266, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 5372, an
22 act to amend Chapter 311 of the Laws of 1920,
23 relating to the assessment and collection of
9042
1 taxes in Suffolk County.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
3 section.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
6 bill is laid aside by Senator Paterson.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 1267, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 3873-A, an
9 act to amend the Real Property Law, in relation
10 to establishing a New York State Real Estate
11 Board.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
13 bill is high. Lay it aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 1268, by Senator Kruger, an act to -- Senate
16 Print 4142, an act to allow Jack Walfish, a
17 retired member of the New York State Teachers
18 Requirement System to purchase military credit
19 for service as a Merchant Marine during World
20 War II.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
22 -- Senator Sears.
23 SENATOR SEARS: Wait until you're
9043
1 done.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
3 section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
11 bill is passed.
12 Senator Sears.
13 SENATOR SEARS: Supplemental
14 Calendar 1, page 3, Calendar Number 1238, would
15 you star the bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Calendar Number 1238, the bill is starred.
18 Senator Skelos.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Take up
20 Supplemental Calendar Number 2, controversial.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
22 Secretary will read.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9044
1 1237, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 138-A, an
2 act to amend the Social Services Law and the
3 Executive Law, in relation to providing an
4 automobile as essential personal property.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
7 Explanation is asked for.
8 Senator Holland.
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: This bill
10 basically does two things: It passes on to the
11 Commissioner of -- Commissioners of Social
12 Services the right to set a reasonable value for
13 an automobile that a client may have and
14 secondly, it clarifies and expands the
15 prosecutorial powers of the welfare inspector
16 general.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
18 Senator Paterson.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: While I
20 understand, Mr. President, that it might seem
21 absurd to have an automobile while being
22 eligible for this type of assistance, but what
23 confuses me as -- is what we would define as
9045
1 "reasonable", and I was wondering if the
2 sponsor would yield and provide us with an
3 explanation.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
5 Senator Holland, do you yield?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
8 Senator yields.
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'll tell you,
10 Senator, many times you'll -- many people have
11 told you stories and told me stories about a
12 client who comes into a welfare office or with
13 food stamps and is driving a Rolls-Royce or new
14 Cadillac, that type of thing. What happened
15 many times was since there was no value put on
16 their -- they could have a car of any value,
17 they would dump some of their money that they
18 may have into the car and then qualify for
19 welfare and Medicaid.
20 This would send to the
21 commissioners the authority to set a reasonable
22 limit on a car. We want them to have a car.
23 They need to have a car, but they shouldn't have
9046
1 a car that cost 25- or $30,000. That's the
2 point of the bill.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
4 if Senator Holland would continue to yield.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
6 Senator Holland.
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
9 Senator Holland continues to yield.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator,
11 actually, it sounds like a good idea and -
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: It's not
13 everybody.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Yeah, I see
15 that. You had this bill before the house last
16 year, Senator. One change that we did note was
17 that previously there was a deputized attorney
18 general who would supervise Medicaid fraud, I
19 guess kind of a special prosecutor in a way and
20 I was wondering why you removed that from the
21 bill.
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: This is the
23 welfare inspector general that we are trying to
9047
1 put his authority into statute and it does a
2 number of things. It provides that such
3 authority shall be included but not limited to
4 appear -- appearing before and presenting all
5 matters to the grand jury and all other
6 appropriate actions authorized in the Criminal
7 Procedure Law, basically. It gives him
8 authority in statute that he didn't have
9 before.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Why do we need
11 him, Senator?
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm sorry. Go
13 ahead, Senator.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Paterson.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: That's all
17 right. Actually, I like this bill, Senator, and
18 Happy Birthday, by the way.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
20 the last section.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
23 President.
9048
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
2 Senator Leichter, why do you rise?
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Certainly to
4 wish Senator Holland a Happy Birthday but also
5 to ask him a question.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
7 Senator Holland, will you answer a question on
8 your happy birthday?
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Certainly try.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
11 Senator yields.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, we
13 were having some problem in the Rules Committee
14 fully understanding the bill, but I think you
15 made it clear. You're now giving enforcement
16 powers to the welfare inspector general. What
17 was confusing is that your memo, as I recollect
18 -- and I don't seem to have it here -- talked
19 about the deputy attorney general for Medicaid
20 fraud.
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, that's
22 wrong. That's wrong. It's the welfare
23 inspector general.
9049
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Now I
2 understand. But my question to you then is if
3 we have the deputy attorney general for Medicaid
4 fraud and he's charged with prosecuting these
5 instances of fraud and that office is -- has
6 existed for a number of years and I think it's
7 done a good job, why now do we want to establish
8 concurrent jurisdiction with the welfare
9 inspector general?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. Kuriansky's
11 office basically does providers and the welfare
12 inspector general's Office basically does
13 clients. That's the difference.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, let me
15 -- let me see if I understand that, if you
16 would be so good as to continue to yield. Isn't
17 it a fact that the deputy attorney general for
18 Medicaid fraud has not only the authority but is
19 charged to go not only after providers but also
20 after recipients who commit fraud?
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: I suppose he
22 could, Senator, under the law, but historically
23 that has not been the case. He has basically
9050
1 gone after providers.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, isn't it
3 a fact that the reason he's gone after providers
4 is that's where the big money is?
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: There's more
6 money on that side, yes, sir, but there's fraud
7 on both sides.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, if you
9 -- if we want him to go after the fraud of
10 individuals, the recipients, the beneficiaries,
11 if you will, and he hasn't done so, why don't we
12 just direct him to do so or give him the stamp
13 that he needs to do so? I'm somewhat concerned
14 any time when you have two law enforcement
15 officials and they have concurrent
16 jurisdiction.
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm told that
18 Kuriansky does not have a problem with this.
19 Both offices work together, but they have
20 separate responsibilities, basically, Senator.
21 That wasn't happening. That's why we -- this
22 bill has been in -- the welfare inspector
23 general bill has -- I brought over from the
9051
1 Assembly and it was not happening. The client
2 fraud was not being prosecuted and that's why we
3 implemented this about three years ago under
4 Governor Cuomo.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator,
6 if, as you say, the office of the deputy
7 attorney general doesn't have a problem with
8 that and it seems to be efficient to proceed in
9 this way, I'll accept your word. Certainly, I
10 agree, instances of fraud should be -- should be
11 prosecuted.
12 Let me just ask you in that
13 connection because I seem to remember hearing
14 district attorneys going after individuals who
15 committed fraud. The attorney -- the various
16 district attorneys do also now have the
17 authority to prosecute fraud, do they not?
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: I missed some
19 of it, Senator, but I think you're asking me if
20 district attorneys prosecute fraud. Yes, they
21 do, and some of the research has been done by
22 the welfare inspector general and passed on to
23 the district attorneys. We are concerned that
9052
1 because the -- for a number of reasons, but one
2 of the reasons we're concerned is because of the
3 tremendous work load that some of the district
4 attorneys' offices have had, they have not
5 prosecuted some of these cases and we're passing
6 it on to the welfare inspector general.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Does the
8 welfare inspector general have the trained
9 personnel to do these prosecutions?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Sometimes.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: And sometimes
12 not?
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's
14 correct. Depending upon what we do with the
15 budget, Senator.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: And did the
17 budget provide for those instances where he does
18 not have the sufficient staff?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, but now we
20 can use -- if this bill passes both houses and
21 the Governor signs it, we can use it to squeeze
22 out a little more assistance on his behalf for
23 his office.
9053
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: So if I
2 understand it, while we have at least two
3 authorities now that can prosecute welfare
4 fraud, and that's the deputy attorney general
5 for Medicaid fraud and our district attorneys,
6 you want to establish personnel to do it,
7 instill another office all with the idea that
8 you're going to save money?
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, sir. It is
10 already established and they have turned over a
11 number of cases that you have read about
12 recently, fraud cases by clients in -- in the
13 government, outside of the government. A lot of
14 fraud was stolen from the -- your taxpayers, so
15 they have been beneficial and saved us money.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
17 just briefly on the bill.
18 Senator Holland, I'm going to
19 support the bill because I agree, as you do, and
20 as everybody here does, that people who commit
21 fraud ought to be prosecuted. No question about
22 it.
23 The only disagreement I have with
9054
1 you is I think you see this enormous pot of
2 money. You believe there's massive fraud here
3 by the recipients. I believe that's not the
4 case. In fact, as you conceded, most of the
5 fraud, at least dollarwise is by the providers.
6 I think that you will find that you may very
7 well be spending more money on this than you
8 will ever be recovering. Nevertheless, there's
9 a benefit, I think, in the public knowing that
10 we take fraud very seriously, and so I will
11 support this bill.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
13 Senator Dollinger.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will the
15 sponsor yield to a couple of questions, Mr.
16 President?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Will
18 the sponsor yield? Senator Holland yields.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: First of all,
20 as I understand this bill, it has two aspects to
21 it; it has the automobile aspect and then it has
22 a section that deals with the scope of investi
23 gations, is that correct?
9055
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: With the
2 authority of the welfare inspector general, yes.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. With
4 respect to the second part of that, it says that
5 they can investigate criminal acts or alleged
6 illegal acts or criminal acts, but there's
7 nothing in there that requires the grand jury or
8 allows the Deputy Attorney General to conduct
9 just basically an inquiry to determine -
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: To what?
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: An inquiry
12 just to determine there are certain practices
13 which may not be illegal but are nonetheless
14 inefficient, costly, wasteful and don't serve
15 the public interest. In constructing this bill,
16 did you consider giving them that ability to
17 make that kind of a report as well?
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, I'm sorry,
19 we did not do that. It's a good idea, though.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I'd
21 just point out that in other countries, for
22 example, in Canada in the Province of Ontario,
23 their grand jury as well as their inspector
9056
1 general can conduct a detailed investigation
2 that not only reviews punitively illegal acts
3 but can also look at things that definitely need
4 to be redressed, whether they're malfeasance,
5 albeit not criminal but -- or inefficiency or
6 waste or poor practices, pose suggested
7 legislative changes. I think that's the kind of
8 thing you ought to look at and try to tuck into
9 this bill, sort of the broad inquiry so that we
10 get that input back and it isn't simply one of
11 those reports that says it wasn't very good
12 practices but it didn't break the law and we put
13 the -- it up on the shelf and we never see it
14 again.
15 SENATOR HOLLAND: I think it
16 sounds reasonable to me, but I think it is
17 actually happening anyway. I know personally
18 the welfare inspector general comes to me with
19 recommendations for ways to improve the system
20 where he sees fraud and abuse, where the
21 potential for fraud and abuse is, and I think
22 actually without putting it into law, everybody
23 who is in that business should be responsible
9057
1 for reviewing procedures suggesting what can be
2 improved. I definitely think the Department of
3 Social Services and the Commissioner should be,
4 both Mr. Kuriansky's office and the welfare
5 inspector general's office, I think without
6 putting it into a law, should be responsible for
7 that anyway and would do that reasonably.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Let me ask
9 you about the second part as well, again, if the
10 sponsor would continue to yield.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
12 sponsor yields.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The bill
14 provides that the failure to comply with the
15 subpoena, provide evidence, testimony, whatever,
16 anyone who fails to do that shall be guilty of a
17 misdemeanor.
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That a
20 sufficient penalty to actually get them to do
21 what you want them them to do, especially if
22 they're a material witness?
23 SENATOR HOLLAND: I can't answer
9058
1 that question. It may not be -- what would you
2 like me to put in there?
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, I'm not
4 so sure. I'm trying to find out from the
5 sponsor whether he's evaluated with the Attorney
6 General or with the Deputy Attorney General
7 whether the misdemeanor is only a year -- up to
8 a year in prison. My guess is that that would
9 probably be much less time. My question is, is
10 it a sufficient deterrent?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm sorry.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My other
13 question is do you intend that that be an
14 exclusive remedy?
15 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, I don't
16 think that this is the end-all. I would think
17 that my thought here was let's try a
18 misdemeanor. If it doesn't work, we can raise
19 it in the future. I would rather not if this
20 functions well.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But -- again
22 through you, Mr. President, if the sponsor would
23 continue to yield.
9059
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Does
3 Senator Holland continue to yield? The Senator
4 yields.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: By making a
6 comment about exclusivity, under the CPLR -- the
7 Criminal Procedure Law, if someone fails to
8 testify under a grand jury, they actually could
9 be in prison for contempt. Is your intent that
10 that power of contempt be waived here and that
11 the only penalty be that of a misdemeanor?
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: I imagine the
13 CPLR would take precedence there, Senator.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. Mr.
15 President, on the bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Senator Dollinger, on the bill.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm going to
19 vote for this bill, but I think that the penalty
20 may not be severe enough to accomplish the goal
21 that the sponsor intends and that is the threat
22 of a misdemeanor prosecution won't be enough of
23 a deterrent to get them to fully comply with the
9060
1 subpoena; and my other fear, quite frankly, is
2 by putting in that as a excessive remedy, you
3 may obviate the fact that, under the CPL and
4 other procedures, we have the ability, if people
5 don't testify in response to subpoenas, they can
6 be held in contempt of court. They can be
7 jailed until they agree to testify. Those are
8 some pretty severe penalties but, nonetheless,
9 they recognize that government needs informa
10 tion, it has to get information and that people
11 can't decline to provide it, but through their
12 own choice without paying the heavy penalty.
13 So I don't think that you may get
14 the benefit of this statute by putting in that
15 misdemeanor provision. I don't think the
16 penalty may be severe enough and, in addition, I
17 would hate to have a court interpret that as an
18 exclusive remedy and say to the prosecutor that
19 you're foreclosed from those broader remedies
20 available in the CPL.
21 I'll vote in favor of it, but I
22 think it needs a little bit of work.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
9061
1 section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
3 act shall take effect on the 30th day.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
5 the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
9 bill is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1248, by Senator Present, Senate Print 991, an
12 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
13 coverage for mammography screening.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
16 Explanation has been asked for.
17 Senator Present.
18 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr. President,
19 I believe back in 1989, New York State passed a
20 law to require mammography screening in New York
21 State by all insurance carriers, health
22 insurance carriers.
23 It was brought to my attention by
9062
1 a female employee in my area that the health
2 insurance provided by her employer did not cover
3 that, so in checking I find that the law
4 exempted certain policies under the New York
5 State law. This is to correct those exemptions
6 to provide that coverage for more needy female
7 employees in New York State.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
9 Senator Montgomery, why do you rise?
10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. Mr.
11 President, would the sponsor yield for a
12 question?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
14 Senator Present, do you yield for a question?
15 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Senator Present yields.
18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Senator
19 Present. I see that you -- your bill would
20 require every health insurance policy -- I'm
21 sorry, I don't have the bill in front of me
22 right at this moment, but what -- how does that
23 affect HMOs and managed care organizations -
9063
1 any other other managed care organizations; are
2 they included in this legislation?
3 SENATOR PRESENT: This just
4 covers health insurance coverage.
5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Is there any
6 reason why you did not extend to -- since we're
7 moving most -- we're attempting in the state to
8 move a large majority of the population into
9 managed care organizations as our primary health
10 care delivery system, would you be -- you know,
11 would it be possible to include that? I mean, I
12 think this is a good bill. I just think we need
13 to -
14 SENATOR PRESENT: I think that
15 they'll be covered too, ma'am. They'll be
16 covered under this.
17 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Excuse me?
18 SENATOR PRESENT: They will be
19 covered.
20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: They will be
21 covered.
22 SENATOR PRESENT: And are covered
23 now under -- with exceptions.
9064
1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right.
2 My colleagues seem to say that it's already
3 covered. So my question is answered in the
4 affirmative.
5 SENATOR PRESENT: Right.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Thank
7 you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
9 Senator Solomon.
10 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes. Senator
11 Present, will you yield, please?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
13 Senator Present, do you yield?
14 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
16 Senator yields.
17 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, as you
18 eliminate Section 3221 which is the exception
19 under the Insurance Law which says, "except this
20 provision shall not apply to a policy which
21 covered persons employed in more than one state
22 or the benefit structure which was subject to
23 collective bargaining affecting persons employed
9065
1 in more than one state."
2 I think I've asked you this
3 question for the past two years and this is the
4 third year. I would like you to explain to me
5 how this law, if it's passed by both houses and
6 signed by the Governor, would be able to last
7 even 24 hours under ERISA attack.
8 SENATOR PRESENT: I don't know as
9 you have ever asked that question, and I don't
10 know as I could have answered had you, so I
11 won't attempt to answer it now.
12 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, the
13 Employment Retirement Income and Security Act
14 specifically prohibits -- which is federal law
15 and preempts state law, exclusively prohibits
16 New York State or any other state from placing a
17 mandate on insurance policies for companies that
18 are multi-state coverage. In other words, they
19 are -- or self-insured, and that's what I'm
20 trying to get at.
21 I agree with the intent of what
22 you're doing but, in reality, it's passing a law
23 that will be illegal and against federal law and
9066
1 it will be struck down by the courts the day
2 after it's signed.
3 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
5 Senator Tully.
6 SENATOR TULLY: If I may, Senator
7 Solomon, try to respond.
8 SENATOR SOLOMON: Sure.
9 SENATOR TULLY: Just in looking
10 at the bill itself, it specifically says "except
11 that this provision shall not apply to a policy
12 which covers persons employed in more than one
13 state or the benefit structure which was the
14 subject of collective bargaining affecting
15 persons employed in more than one state", so it
16 specifically exempts the question that you've
17 asked.
18 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Senator Solomon.
21 SENATOR SOLOMON: I'm reading the
22 current law and the current law under Section
23 3221 of the Insurance Law mandates this
9067
1 coverage. "Every insurer delivering a group or
2 blanket policy or issuing a group or blanket
3 policy for delivery in this state which provides
4 for coverage, hospital, surgical, medical care
5 shall provide for the following coverage for
6 mammography screening, for occult breast cancer"
7 and the exception in the law says "except that
8 this provision shall not apply to a policy which
9 covers persons employed in more than one state
10 or the benefit structure of which was subject to
11 the collective bargaining affecting persons
12 employed in more than one state." That's the
13 exception which currently exists.
14 We currently cover mammography
15 exams, and what I'm saying is by striking this
16 exception out, it's just going to result in a
17 lawsuit and the courts are going to strike it.
18 I agree with the intent, but we cannot mandate
19 this coverage. It's outside of our purview.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
21 Senator Tully.
22 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
23 President.
9068
1 I think there may be some
2 misinterpretation by Senator Solomon because I
3 think what this is specifically saying is except
4 -- this will not apply in those cases that
5 you're concerned about. They're conforming to
6 the law the way this bill is written.
7 SENATOR SOLOMON: But it's
8 bracketed. That's the part that's coming out.
9 It's bracketed in two places, Senator Tully, and
10 if you'll take a look at the last set of
11 brackets, the brackets take that part out,
12 except that this provision shall not apply.
13 That's where the bracket starts on line 7, page
14 1. After the word "cancelled", the brackets
15 commence.
16 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, you're
17 exactly correct, Senator Solomon. I stand
18 corrected.
19 Thank you, Senator Solomon.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
21 Senator Solomon.
22 SENATOR SOLOMON: On the bill.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: On
9069
1 the bill.
2 SENATOR SOLOMON: I voted against
3 this bill last year. It's a bill that you have
4 to vote -- it's a bill that's extremely worthy
5 of consideration. Unfortunately, it's the same
6 as if we were passing a law on defense policy.
7 It's out of our purview to regulate self-insured
8 companies which are the ones that basically deal
9 with multi-state insurance policies. We cannot
10 tell a -- General Electric, if it issues a
11 policy -- and it's self-insured, that they must
12 produce this coverage.
13 Senator, they should provide this
14 coverage. An example of why they should provide
15 this coverage, it's in their economic self
16 interest. Coors Brewery, five years ago, did
17 volun... offered mammography exams to every
18 employer -- every employee and every dependent
19 of an employee. They caught four early
20 malignancies. It cost them $60,000 for the
21 exams. Their savings, because they were
22 self-insured, was $250,000, not counting the
23 psychiatric savings on the families and the
9070
1 trauma that was saved. It's in their economic
2 self-interests, but legislatively we can't pass
3 this law.
4 We can pass it. If it passes the
5 Assembly and gets signed by the Governor, it's
6 going to get struck down. I'm just trying to
7 point that out. We're violating ERISA, which is
8 the Employee Retirement Income and Security Act.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
10 Senator Mendez, why do you rise?
11 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will Senator
12 Solomon yield for a question?
13 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Senator.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Solomon yields.
16 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you.
17 Senator Solomon, how long has
18 that federal statute been in place?
19 SENATOR SOLOMON: 21 years.
20 SENATOR MENDEZ: 21 years ago,
21 don't you think, Senator Solomon, there are
22 cases of breast cancer were not even reported
23 anywhere, practically reported. The situation
9071
1 has changed immediately.
2 So I suggest -- do you think that
3 this is a bad suggestion -- I suggest that in
4 the case in which this bill passes and it's
5 taken to court, won't that bring greater
6 awareness to all of those guys and dolls in
7 Washington about the need to change that
8 existing federal legislation that does not give
9 an opportunity to women to have policies to
10 those that do not have any monies to pay for
11 it? Don't you think that would be faster for
12 those guys and those in Washington to realize
13 that they have to change that statute because 21
14 years ago the threat of breast cancer wasn't
15 anywhere in the United States. Now it's very
16 out in the open and there is great need for
17 women to go for early detection so their lives
18 will be saved. Don't you think that would help
19 the courts?
20 SENATOR SOLOMON: Can I respond?
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Senator Solomon.
9072
1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator,
2 Congress in Washington has been aware of ERISA
3 and the laws regarding impacts and mandates of
4 ERISA. There's files on it. There have been Law
5 Review articles on it. It's been litigated for
6 years and years and years, not only involving
7 New York State. We just had a case go to the
8 United States Supreme Court which was decided
9 favorably, so I don't think it would make the
10 people in Washington any more aware of this
11 because I can guarantee you that -- without even
12 looking, I can guarantee you that these mandates
13 have attempted to be passed by other states. It
14 was a state mandate. This was mandated in New
15 York State law, and it's been mandated in other
16 state laws along with numerous other mandates,
17 but the federal government, when ERISA was
18 passed in 1974, one of the impacts of ERISA
19 which dealt with retirement was on insurance and
20 these specific mandate requirements. I'm not
21 disagreeing with you. I'm agreeing with you.
22 What I'm saying now is passing
23 this law and having it signed is futility in
9073
1 terms of New York State because it's been done
2 before, it's been struck down by the courts
3 before, because the whole intent of the large
4 self-insureds are to have a uniform policy that
5 they can give you in New York, in California, in
6 Iowa, in Alaska, et cetera. They don't want to
7 have to have a policy that contains different
8 coverages as mandated by New York, New Jersey,
9 Pennsylvania, Iowa, Alaska, et cetera.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Senator Mendez.
12 SENATOR MENDEZ: Are you saying
13 to me that the reason why -
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Mendez, do you ask Senator Solomon to
16 continue to yield?
17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you,
18 Mr. -
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Senator Solomon, do you yield? The Senator
21 yields.
22 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr.
23 President.
9074
1 I am saying to -- are you saying
2 to me that the reason why we have that -- that
3 kind of mandate throughout the state is because
4 it is very convenient for the insurance
5 companies who have a standard policy everywhere
6 in the -- within the United States?
7 SENATOR SOLOMON: Mr. President,
8 may I yield?
9 Senator, these are not insurance
10 company policies. In many instances, these are
11 what we called self-insureds. They do not
12 purchase insurance from the ABC insurance
13 company.
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Okay.
15 SENATOR SOLOMON: They provide
16 their own insurance. They're self-insured.
17 They take their own pool of money and they
18 provide that. They give you a booklet which
19 tells you your coverages, but they're not
20 purchasing insurance.
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President,
22 will he yield for another question?
23 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Mr.
9075
1 President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
3 Senator Solomon, do you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR SOLOMON: Yes, Mr.
5 President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
7 Senator continues to yield.
8 Senator Mendez.
9 SENATOR MENDEZ: The Senator is
10 an expert in insurance, I am not, so I would
11 like to benefit from his knowledge.
12 SENATOR SOLOMON: It's very
13 little knowledge.
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: So -- so the
15 situation is that because of that mandate, then
16 we cannot pass a law here in New York State that
17 would benefit the women. Don't you think that
18 there must be a way to change that mandate so
19 that the women in the state of New York who do
20 not have any economic means to go through the -
21 any insurance, they could, in fact, go for such
22 an examination that is so vital for their own
23 physical well-being?
9076
1 SENATOR SOLOMON: Senator, in
2 regard -- let me go -- in response to your
3 question, what I'm saying is New York State,
4 just like any other state, cannot pass a law
5 that impacts policies for those companies that
6 are self-insured. We do pass laws saying that
7 if you purchase a policy in New York State and
8 you are a New York State company, you must have
9 mammography. That's in the current law now, as
10 I said.
11 What I also said is I agree with
12 you in terms of mammography testing 100 percent,
13 and the example I alluded to a few minutes ago
14 regarding Coors Brewery showed that when these
15 -- I can almost tell you now that most large
16 companies do cover mammography exams because
17 it's in their economic self-interest. The
18 companies that we have problems with is where a
19 50-employee company will self-insure -- say "I'm
20 self-insured. I'm protected under ERISA", and
21 they will offer a policy that, in effect, has no
22 insurance coverage and, yes, that policy will
23 discriminate against women. It will discrimi
9077
1 nate against children. It will discriminate
2 against men because, in fact, that insurance
3 policy is meant not to provide certain services
4 and you can't even file a complaint with your
5 state Insurance Department, but that is a
6 problem we can't deal with.
7 That's a problem -- I have
8 represented or helped craft some complaints to
9 solve these problems against -- a woman that
10 delivered twins and had an ERISA policy that, in
11 fact, provided no coverage at all or they
12 changed it after she gave birth saying you're
13 not covered after she got cancer, and to show
14 you the crimes committed under this, if you want
15 to call it that, this same company called
16 someone after they had a heart attack and they
17 were in a hospital and said, "You know what?
18 You're terminated because you didn't come in to
19 work so you don't have your health insurance
20 anymore." That, our Insurance Department
21 couldn't deal with, but this has nothing to do
22 with covering women. It's just the statute
23 which is in front of us. If it was a statute to
9078
1 provide -- mandate hairpieces because of cancer
2 treatment on multi-state policies, I would say
3 the same thing. It violates ERISA. That's all
4 I'm saying.
5 I agree with you 100 percent.
6 Any company that was self-insured, it's in their
7 interests to do mammography exams because it
8 saves them money, because it costs less money
9 for early detection than it does to detect a
10 cancer after it's progressed, so I'm agreeing
11 with your position. I'm just telling you under
12 the law, the net result is going to be the fact
13 that it will be struck down immediately. That's
14 the problem with this bill.
15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Senator Mendez.
18 SENATOR MENDEZ: On the bill.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: On
20 the bill.
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President, I
22 think that we should vote for this bill. It
23 will make -- let these self-insured companies
9079
1 fight it out again in the courts. This will
2 bring greater awareness in Washington about the
3 need to go over that existing statute that is
4 already 21 years old and we must start looking
5 at it to see how relevant it is to today's
6 situation.
7 Thank you, Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Thank
9 you, Senator Mendez.
10 Read the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
12 act shall take effect on the first day of
13 January.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
15 the roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
19 bill is passed.
20 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
22 Senator Stavisky.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President,
9080
1 without objection, I should like the record to
2 reflect a no vote on Calendar 186, and if I had
3 been in the chamber during the slow roll call, I
4 would have voted in the negative on 91 and 994.
5 Thank you.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
7 Without objection.
8 The clerk -
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 1249, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 1281, an act
11 to amend the State Finance Law, in relation to
12 requiring a regulatory budget.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Leichter.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Would
17 Senator Rath yield on this bill, please?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Senator Rath, do you yield? Senator Rath
20 yields.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
22 want to ask just a couple of questions about
23 this bill, but if you would find it easier to
9081
1 first explain it in however way you want to, I'd
2 certainly yield to that.
3 SENATOR RATH: Why don't you just
4 go ahead with your question, Senator. I think
5 it's fairly straightforward.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: If I
7 understand this bill, it requires that each
8 agency identify in detail the amount of the
9 appropriations the agency gets which are being
10 spent on regulatory work; is that a correct
11 statement?
12 SENATOR RATH: Yeah. Let me
13 answer the "in detail" phrase. If you're -- if
14 you're looking through this document and you see
15 the words "in detail", you'd probably be as
16 surprised as I was to see it because we had no
17 intention of micro-managing anything.
18 If you go to the bill itself, the
19 bill is fairly -- fairly open asking that the
20 agencies that do a lot of regulation -- and we
21 don't spell out which agencies, but we say the
22 agencies that do regulation to give us some sort
23 of a view as to how much money they spend
9082
1 regulating, and I would say that it came to me
2 -- probably just about the first thoughts that
3 I had as I recognized the responsibility of a -
4 a chairman of an Administration Regulation
5 Review Commission, I found myself hearing that
6 we almost had a Catch-22 here. Do we have more
7 regulators writing more regulations or do we
8 need -- do we need more regulators to write more
9 regulations? And which came first, the chicken
10 or the egg kind of theory.
11 So what we're attempting to get
12 at here is a look at what an agency thinks it
13 might cost them to regulate. It's the old
14 performance budgeting kind of thing that we were
15 all doing 15 years ago and which I don't know
16 that we see people doing much anymore on a broad
17 base, but this particular bill is looking for
18 the agencies in good faith to come forward with
19 this kind of information.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you very
21 much, Senator Rath.
22 If you would be so good as to
23 continue to yield.
9083
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
2 Senator Rath, do you continue to yield?
3 SENATOR RATH: Surely.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
5 Senator yields.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm glad you
7 make it clear that you're not asking for details
8 because I think those would be really very
9 difficult to achieve, but what I'm concerned
10 about and what I want to ask you is right now we
11 have what we call a detailed executive budget,
12 do we not?
13 SENATOR RATH: That's right.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: And that sets
15 forth the number of personnel and the
16 commissioners and other than personal services.
17 Doesn't that give us a fairly clear picture of
18 where the personnel within the agency are?
19 SENATOR RATH: I would say,
20 Senator, that through the years, different
21 aspects of state finances have been focused on.
22 There was -- there was a summary of financial
23 plans showing each of the government fund types,
9084
1 current and projected employment levels for each
2 State Department, three-year financial
3 projection. I think this is asking the agencies
4 to take a look at things, maybe not the way
5 they're looking right now, but shift it. Take a
6 look at what it costs you to write regulations,
7 and let's say an agency hadn't thought about
8 that before, but they found themselves making
9 personnel requests the following year for two
10 more people to write regulations when we're,
11 indeed, in an era where an attitude adjustment
12 that we've all pretty much agreed is very
13 important in New York State, whereby we attempt
14 to not diminish regulations but regulate smarter
15 and hopefully regulate a little less.
16 Let me point out a memorandum
17 sent in by the Business Council which commented
18 and I thought that their issue was well taken.
19 They said, quote -- the Business Council. "It
20 is clearly not the intent of the bill, although
21 it may result in some agencies, that they would
22 spend an -- inordinate amounts of time deciding
23 which staff and other expenditures are
9085
1 regulatory in nature. The Budget Division and
2 the Office of Regulatory Reform may need to give
3 agencies clearer guidelines to avoid such
4 potential problems."
5 Even with these concerns, the
6 Business Council believes this legislation
7 provides a useful tool in the state's regulatory
8 reform measures and earlier they said they
9 recognized that it might be that there would be
10 increased activity and increased spending by an
11 agency when they found themselves reaching out
12 to the community that is regulated and reaching
13 out in order to regulate smarter. It might cost
14 them more than it cost in the past, and so we're
15 not necessarily looking at them saying, "We
16 spent this much this year. We're going to spend
17 less next year. We're going to spend less the
18 next year." We're looking at them to regulate
19 smarter.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you would
21 please continue to yield.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Senator Rath.
9086
1 SENATOR RATH: Surely.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
3 Senator Leichter.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I'm
5 glad you read this critique by the Business
6 Council because they expressed some of the
7 concerns I had that this is very difficult to
8 do, and you sort of, as I understand it, backed
9 away a bit from requiring a detailed statement.
10 In fact, if I recollect, I saw another bill of
11 yours on this; am I correct? Was there another
12 bill of yours -
13 SENATOR RATH: On the agenda
14 today?
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- that dealt
16 with the same subject matter?
17 SENATOR RATH: Senator, there are
18 so many pieces that allude to various aspects of
19 regulatory reform that, if there's a little
20 overlap, you'll have to excuse us.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, let me
22 just ask you if you would be so good -- if you
23 would look at line 17, you say that "...
9087
1 disbursements proposed to be made pursuant to
2 this paragraph." What are you referring to when
3 you say "disbursments to be made"? Does this
4 particular bill call for any disbursments?
5 SENATOR RATH: You know, I asked
6 the same question and I was advised by counsel
7 that this is boilerplate language that shows up
8 in these particular kinds of bills in order to
9 implement them.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, I'm not
11 sure I understand it, and while you and I, we do
12 rely to a large extent on counsel, you know, I'm
13 not -- I'm not sure that they always have the
14 right answer. I'm not sure I understand it.
15 Now, where is this, if you will,
16 identification of rulemaking, adjudicatory and
17 licensing expenditures; where is that going to
18 be shown? It says on line 19 that "... the
19 separate and distinct parts prepared in
20 accordance with this provision -- with the
21 provisions of paragraph 5 of this subdivision."
22 I don't have that before me, and I just wonder
23 where that is or what it is.
9088
1 SENATOR RATH: One second,
2 Senator.
3 I think that in the over-arching
4 look at this piece of legislation, it points out
5 where the government regulations and mandates
6 are falling and we've seen so much effort put in
7 this year as in previous years to uncovering
8 where some of these hidden costs are, and the
9 points that you're pointing to below sections -
10 lines 18, 19, 20, again, are implementing
11 legislation for what -- above and I highlight
12 lines 14 through 17 -- the beginning of 17 -- as
13 the real intent of the legislation.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
15 appreciate what you're saying, but if we could
16 just focus on the specific -- my specific
17 question is you're trying to get the agencies to
18 identify how much they're spending on certain
19 rulemaking and adjudicatory functions. I just
20 want to know where is that going to be stated?
21 Is that going to be part of the budget bills?
22 Where do we get this information? How do they
23 disseminate it? To whom do they make it
9089
1 available?
2 SENATOR RATH: Well, that's why
3 we have left that unsaid, because I would
4 imagine the agencies and the Governor, in his
5 wisdom with, again, having a Director of
6 Regulatory Reform, would work into some sort of
7 directive that they would use for their agencies
8 in order to be able to bring that information
9 back. We have not intentionally tried to
10 micro-manage because that's been a lot of the
11 difficulties I think that we've seen government
12 get into through the years. The micro-managing
13 does not allow flexibility.
14 As one agency may do regulations,
15 that would be very easily identified as these
16 people are writing regulations. DEC has a whole
17 department that writes regulations. Other
18 agencies may only write a dozen regulations a
19 year because they just simply aren't impacted
20 heavily. So I think that should be under the -
21 some of the direction of the administration.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you would
23 yield just for one final question, Senator
9090
1 Rath.
2 SENATOR RATH: Sure.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: In other
4 words, the agency together with the Governor can
5 decide whether they're going to put this in a
6 budget bill, whether they're going to have it in
7 their annual brochure or pamphlet, report that
8 they put out, maybe in a letter to the chairs of
9 the Finance Committees, maybe to you as chair of
10 the regulatory -- many -
11 SENATOR RATH: Well, Senator,
12 again I come back to some earlier comments that
13 you and I exchanged this year regarding common
14 sense as to where it's very important for us to
15 see this, and I think that we have to believe
16 that without micro-managing, that the intent is
17 well intended and that we will see these -- I
18 certainly don't expect they're going to appear
19 in some brochure that's going to be mailed out
20 to constituents that are asking questions of an
21 agency. I expect that they will be returned to
22 the Governor and returned to us if we were to
23 ask for that information.
9091
1 Remember, Senator, that there -
2 at the beginning of this year, we had a gate, if
3 you will, as to regulations that were -- that
4 were going to be proposed and there were some
5 350 regulations sitting on our doorstep January
6 1st that did not go through because we had a
7 regulatory -- what we knew about those 350
8 because we had a regulatory agenda bill that
9 passed here last year and was signed by Governor
10 Cuomo that identified 350 regulations out of, I
11 believe it was just five agencies -- it was
12 either four or five agencies and those sat
13 because there was some effort being made to know
14 what the agencies are doing.
15 Now, I believe that this is the
16 same kind of legislation. It's well-intended
17 legislation attempting to ask well-intended
18 people to help us work through some very
19 difficult circumstances in New York State.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you very
21 much, Senator Rath.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Senator Leichter on the bill.
9092
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: On the bill.
2 Let me just say I don't share Senator Rath's
3 belief, you know, that government is going to
4 work very well on good intentions and the good
5 intention of the legislation, the good intention
6 of the executive and the good intention of the
7 agencies and we're going to get what she seeks,
8 but that's really not my main objection to the
9 bill.
10 I mean, even if the bill was
11 drafted with some precision -- I don't mean to
12 say this critically. I understand that you
13 purposely didn't want to do this in some detail,
14 but it seems to me, first of all, that the bill
15 is drafted in such a way that I don't know what
16 it accomplishes, but my other problem is that,
17 it seems to me, Senator Rath, that you and
18 Senator Wright, in your zeal to cut down on the
19 administrative function and burdens on agencies,
20 sometimes add to those functions and burdens;
21 and now you're going to require every agency to
22 try to figure out how much time a particular
23 employee spends in a -- in adjudicatory and
9093
1 rulemaking and licensing, and so on, a secretary
2 may have to say, "Well, I take 15 phone calls a
3 day and three are on this and four are on
4 that."
5 I know you said that you're not
6 trying to micro-manage, whatever that means, and
7 I know that you said we're not requiring this in
8 detail, but I don't know what you're requiring
9 then, and if you are requiring this precise
10 information, it just seems to be an enormous
11 burden on the agencies.
12 I don't know whether you rise to
13 ask me a question, in which case, I yield. If
14 not, I'll -- or you just want to be heard on the
15 bill -- let me just finish my comments on the
16 bill.
17 I mean, in part -- Senator Rath,
18 if I can put this in a broader context, what I
19 hear from you and Senator Wright and some other
20 people is you wish this were a less complex
21 world, that we didn't have environmental
22 problems and we didn't have some of the social
23 needs and some of the social problems we have
9094
1 and we didn't have the interaction between
2 various forms of government and businesses and
3 consumers, and so on. It happens to be a pretty
4 complex world. It's not what it was in 1920 or
5 1820, and so on, and we have a need for more
6 regulations than we have ever had before.
7 That's not to say that we
8 shouldn't have a good process, that we shouldn't
9 try to weed out unnecessary regulations, but I
10 think that how you seem to proceed is on the
11 basis that so many of these regulations are
12 unnecessary. They're harmful. They can be
13 gotten rid of and the agencies are creating
14 regulatory work where none is needed, and if we
15 just put a lot of pressure on them, then we're
16 going to, in some ways, get these agencies no
17 longer to interfere so much in the affairs of
18 the people of the state of New York, and I
19 submit to you that's really very illusory and
20 that what you end up with is that you're going
21 to end up with a state that functions far less
22 well and you're going to end up with problems in
23 the health of the people of the state of New
9095
1 York as you've emasculated environmental
2 regulations, and so on.
3 So I must say while this bill is
4 written in sort of a benign way, in fact, so
5 benign that I don't know what it does, but it -
6 the underlying theory is regulations are bad.
7 That's why I differ with you. Some regulations
8 maybe we can do without but, unfortunately, in
9 the world that we lead, you need to have
10 government to be involved and try to create that
11 level and fair playing field to protect people
12 and you need regulations.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
14 the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2 -
16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr.
17 President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Senator Stachowski.
20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: If Senator
21 Rath would yield to just a question.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Senator Rath, will you yield for a question?
9096
1 SENATOR RATH: Surely.
2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I listened
3 to the exchange between you and Senator Leichter
4 and I read the memo and read the bill, and I'm
5 more confused than when I saw this in Rules for
6 the first time, and basically I'm just going to
7 ask you two questions, and the first being, this
8 bill says that it's an act to amend the State
9 Finance Law, in relation to requiring a
10 regulatory budget. This document is going to be
11 prepared in time for next year's budget
12 process. Is this document going to go to the
13 Legislature as part of the budget proposal or
14 does it go to the executive department as part
15 of the departmental budget for each agency?
16 SENATOR RATH: Let me check with
17 my -- it is our intention that that would come
18 to the Legislature so that we will be able to
19 get a full view of what we are spending -- or
20 let me just say not a full view, some sort of an
21 initial view as to what we see that we're
22 spending on regulation.
23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr.
9097
1 President, if Senator Rath would yield.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
3 Senator Rath, do you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR RATH: Surely.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
6 Senator yields.
7 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: The other
8 question I had is the fiscal implication of the
9 bill, it says "costs involved in regulatory
10 budget preparation" which I would feel all of us
11 know that, but what we expect to see in fiscal
12 implication would be roughly what it's going to
13 cost each of these departments to ascertain this
14 -- this information, and that seems to be left
15 out and there has to be some expense. Every
16 department has "X" amount of jobs currently and
17 the employees are requested to do "X" amount of
18 things when they're preparing this year's
19 budget.
20 Now, this year's budget has
21 passed and along comes this bill which will now
22 add additional responsibilities to practically
23 everybody in the department if they have any way
9098
1 to report it or if they report at all, and to
2 what part of their job deals with the cost of
3 regulations that they either have to put
4 together or they are answering to.
5 So this is an added expense to
6 the department and we're just trying -- I'm just
7 trying to find out so I can understand whether
8 it's doing a -- if this is, in fact, an
9 expensive mandate on these departmental people
10 -- because one of the questions asked to me
11 when I was going back and forth with some of the
12 appointees to the new Governor was that they
13 would be able to carry out their jobs under the
14 restricted budget that the Governor had
15 presented at the time they were looking for
16 appointment, but they would have a great
17 difficult time doing that if they got a whole
18 new series of jobs from the Legislature in
19 different bills, and my question is how much is
20 this going to cost because that is exactly what
21 this bill does.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
23 Senator Rath.
9099
1 SENATOR RATH: I think we all
2 share your concerns, Senator Stachowski, and I
3 believe that all of us are very comfortable when
4 we have a job description and I'm sure in the
5 various departments, the people who do the
6 regulating and are expected to serve that
7 function have their -- their job description
8 indicates that part of their time is allocated
9 to writing regulations, and I don't know,
10 Senator Stachowski, if you have ever held a job
11 that was an hourly kind of work that was a free
12 lance kind of work. I did that at one time and
13 found it very difficult at first to -- to chalk
14 up anything more than an hour's work because I
15 knew how much I earned by the hour. If I worked
16 for three or four hours, I was comfortable in
17 putting down the three or four hours and that
18 was billable time.
19 Well, as I came to know attorneys
20 and other people who have worked with billable
21 time, I don't think it's a real problem. I
22 think people see if they spent a period of time
23 on something or made a couple phone calls, put a
9100
1 couple checks in a column on a paper that's on
2 your desk and once a month you take a half an
3 hour and look at it and say, "Yeah, I spent 25
4 hours this month on working on regulations" and
5 you walk away from it. The next month you did
6 the same thing and eight or ten or twelve months
7 later, however long we would be into this at
8 this point, we would have some sort of a bird's
9 eye view for each department as how much time
10 they spent. That's basically what we're looking
11 for.
12 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Excuse me,
13 Mr. President. I said it would only be two
14 questions, but I really have to ask one more.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Will
16 Senator Rath yield to one more question?
17 SENATOR RATH: Surely.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
19 Senator yields.
20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Senator, I
21 can understand that there's free lance jobs and
22 other jobs, and I'm not being specific in saying
23 what people should be doing.
9101
1 My problem is that when there's a
2 fiscal implication on a bill and it says the
3 cost of doing -- preparing this budget, that's
4 not a fiscal implication. The implication is a
5 number. How much does it cost; and if you want
6 to say it has no fiscal impact, which is what
7 you inferred when you said you can either free
8 lance or you have an hourly wage type of job
9 with a specific -- specific goal to accomplish,
10 that's one thing, but if it's either no fiscal
11 implication or there is a cost, and I'm just
12 trying to find out if it's no fiscal
13 implication, then that's what it should say or
14 if there's a dollar amount involved in it, then
15 that's what it should say, but to say that it's
16 the cost involved in regulatory budget
17 preparation, then I would imagine every bill we
18 ever bring here, that, if we don't want to say
19 the number, we'll say it's the cost to do the
20 job that this bill calls for, and that would be
21 the same as this fiscal implication on this bill
22 and that's the problem I have.
23 I don't mean to be overbearing on
9102
1 this particular issue, but I know that in other
2 instances when somebody's asked for a fiscal
3 implication, oftentimes their bill won't even be
4 considered if it doesn't have a number
5 attached. So if it's none, then let's not say
6 none, and if it's some, let's get a number on
7 it. Senator, if you could possibly give a
8 number, I'd appreciate it.
9 SENATOR RATH: Senator, I would
10 be glad to say that I don't see any costs at
11 this point and that I would expect that the
12 Division for Budget or the Office of Regulatory
13 Reform may have to give the agencies some
14 guidelines in these areas, but right now I don't
15 see that there are going to be a lot of
16 potential problems.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
22 the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9103
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes -- those
2 recorded in the negative on Calendar 1249 are
3 Senators Abate, Connor, Leichter, Onorato,
4 Paterson and Stavisky. Also, Senator
5 Montgomery. Ayes 52, nays 7.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
7 bill is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 1250, by Senator Holland, Senate Print -
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside
11 temporarily.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 1253, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 2761-A, an
14 act in relation to the duration of the eligible
15 list for police officer in the county of Nassau.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Home
17 rule message at the desk.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Explanation is asked for.
21 Senator Skelos.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Currently, there
23 is no valid list which exists in the county of
9104
1 Nassau so the villages can hire police
2 officers.
3 What this legislation would do
4 would extend a list that expired on May 4th,
5 1994 until May 4th, 1996 unless a new list is
6 validated that police officers can be selected
7 from for villages within the county of Nassau.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
9 Senator Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
11 if Senator Skelos would yield for a question.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Does
13 Senator Skelos yield? The Senator yields.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, this
15 list that we're working from right now is
16 already a year old, and the whole purpose of
17 civil service lists is for them to be up to
18 date. What you seem to be asking us to do is to
19 extend this list, so that at one point it might
20 be three years old and we still don't have a
21 replacement list.
22 So I can understand you extending
23 the legislation, but why would you extend it two
9105
1 years as opposed to one, because in that second
2 year, I would hope that we would have a
3 replacement list.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: I would
5 certainly -- the legislation says that if a new
6 list is established, then this one would expire.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
8 President.
9 Again, through you, Mr.
10 President. Senator Skelos, I understand that,
11 but what that accomplishes is building into the
12 legislation what would in a sense be protection
13 that since there hasn't been any activity in the
14 first place, let's just say that this
15 legislation is not going to stimulate any
16 activity at this point.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: The problem -
18 the problem -- we're going to hopefully
19 stimulate the county to establish this list.
20 The problem right now is that villages who use
21 the county list to select new recruits for their
22 departments have not been able to do so because
23 a new list has not been established, and when
9106
1 I'm talking about villages in our county, we're
2 talking about police forces with maybe 20
3 policemen and when they lose one or two, it's a
4 real technical problem for them to continue to
5 service the people within their community. It's
6 not the county -- it's really to protect the
7 villages.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: I understand.
9 Thank you, Senator Skelos. If
10 you would yield for just one other question.
11 I understand the problem when
12 we're losing officers. Can you explain to me
13 the problem that is causing us to be unable to
14 establish the list?
15 SENATOR SKELOS: No.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Okay. Well,
17 if the problem doesn't cure itself -- in other
18 words, since we don't know what the problem is,
19 it's very likely that we could be right back
20 here in 1996 extending the list again, couldn't
21 we?
22 SENATOR SKELOS: There's always a
23 possibility, but not a probability.
9107
1 SENATOR PATERSON: I understand.
2 What I'm saying, Senator, is because that's the
3 case, in this legislation, it seems to me that
4 we are addressing an issue, but it's not even
5 correlative. It's more ancillary to the actual
6 issue that's creating the problem, and in
7 addressing it through this form of legislation,
8 what I think we are very likely to accomplish is
9 a situation where we've got individuals who
10 would like to become police officers who, but
11 for the fact that they are not on a current list
12 which was established somewhere in 1994, would
13 be denied. What we're now also implementing is
14 a list that, in many respects, has aged.
15 So I'm just suggesting to you
16 that -- yeah, I can vote for this piece of
17 legislation. I don't have a problem with it per
18 se, but I think that this is an issue that needs
19 to be looked into to figure out why we are
20 forced as a Legislature to act on this
21 particular -- in this situation.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very
23 much.
9108
1 SENATOR PATERSON: You're
2 welcome, Senator.
3 Mr. President, on the bill.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: On
5 the bill, Senator Paterson.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: As I said to
7 Senator Skelos, there's really nothing wrong
8 with this legislation, but there is something
9 wrong somewhere that we are unable to determine
10 either through the legislation or even the
11 discussion, and what I would hope is that -
12 that the sponsors would look into trying to
13 determine why the list hasn't been established
14 because, in many respects, it is prolonging an
15 opportunity for some and denying employment for
16 others.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect on the first day of
21 September.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
23 the roll.
9109
1 (The Secretary called the roll.)
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
4 bill is passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 1255, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 3586-A,
7 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to the
8 delivery of wage reporting information.
9 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
11 Explanation is asked for.
12 SENATOR GOODMAN: Who asked for
13 the explanation, please?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Senator Stachowski.
16 Senator Goodman.
17 SENATOR GOODMAN: Senator
18 Stachowski, this bill is a technical correction
19 from the Department of Taxation and Finance to a
20 bill that was passed last year and is now
21 Chapter 630 of the Laws of 1994. Its purpose is
22 to allow the expansion of the delivery of wage
23 reporting information by the Department of
9110
1 Taxation and Finance to the Department of Social
2 Services for the evaluation of employment or
3 training programs authorized pursuant to the
4 Social Services Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
6 the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
14 bill is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1260, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 4807-A,
17 an act to provide benefit options to surviving
18 spouses of certain deceased members of the New
19 York State Teachers Retirement System.
20 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
22 Explanation asked for.
23 Senator Maziarz.
9111
1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
2 who asked for the explanation?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
4 Senator Stachowski.
5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you.
6 Senator, Terry Taylor was a great
7 educator and was well respected by his
8 colleagues in the Spencerport School System, as
9 well as educators across New York State. His
10 untimely death at the age of 47 in February of
11 1994 was especially disturbing because he did
12 not satisfy the 30-day waiting period required
13 to receive disability retirement benefits from
14 the New York State Teachers Retirement System.
15 As a result, the benefits his wife and two
16 children received from the retirement system
17 were considerably less than he would have had he
18 lived for just another seven days.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
20 Senator Stachowski.
21 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Senator
22 Maziarz, would you yield for a couple of
23 questions?
9112
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
2 Senator Maziarz, do you yield?
3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
5 Senator yields.
6 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Senator,
7 isn't it true that unfortunately people in the
8 various retirement systems, whether Teachers' or
9 the New York State retirement system, have the
10 wrong benefits or miss a date and they die and
11 they're either in the wrong system or they
12 didn't fill out some papers or some papers
13 weren't aged and this happens pretty regularly?
14 What -- what makes this particular person any
15 different than all those other people that
16 unfortunately found themselves in the same
17 position and didn't get the benefits that will
18 be provided by this legislation?
19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I don't think,
20 Senator, it makes this person any different at
21 all.
22 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I'm sorry?
23 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I don't think
9113
1 it makes this situation any different at all. I
2 mean, if this happened to one of the other
3 Senators' constituents and they wanted to bring
4 up this bill, I would certainly support it. I
5 don't think there's any large difference here at
6 all.
7 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Let me ask
8 -- if the Senator would still yield.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Does
10 the Senator continue to yield?
11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
13 Senator yields.
14 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: The cost of
15 doing this bill, that will be incurred by the
16 retirement system and not by the school
17 district?
18 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you,
20 Senator.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Last
22 section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9114
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll.)
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
7 bill is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 1266, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 5372, an
10 act to amend Chapter 311 of the Laws of 1920,
11 relating to the assessment and collection of
12 taxes in Suffolk County.
13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Explanation.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
15 Explanation asked for.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for
17 the day.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
19 bill is laid aside for the day.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
21 would you stand at ease for a minute.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
23 house will stand at ease.
9115
1 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
3 Senator Gold.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, before we do
5 that, I had to step out of the chamber when we
6 considered Senator Rath's bill, I think it's
7 1249, and I ask unanimous consent to be recorded
8 in the negative.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
10 Without objection.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
12 is there housekeeping at the desk?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
14 Housekeeping?
15 Senator Maziarz.
16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr.
17 President.
18 On behalf of Senator Sears, on
19 page 21, I offer the following amendments to
20 Calendar Number 752, Senate Print 1536 and ask
21 that said bill retain its place on the Third
22 Reading Calendar.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
9116
1 amendments are received and adopted.
2 Senator Maziarz.
3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
4 on behalf of Senator Levy, on page number 15, I
5 offer the following amendments to Calendar
6 Number 583, Senate Print Number 4146, and ask
7 that said bill retain its place on the Third
8 Reading Calendar.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
10 amendments are received and adopted.
11 Senator Maziarz.
12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
13 on behalf of Senator DiCarlo, on page number 26,
14 I offer the following amendments to Calendar
15 Number 864, Senate Print Number 4358 and ask
16 that said bill retain its place on the Third
17 Reading Calendar.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
19 Amendments received and adopted.
20 Senator Maziarz.
21 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
22 on behalf of Senator Saland, I ask that the
23 sponsor's star be removed, on page 46 and I
9117
1 offer the following amendments to Calendar
2 Number 959, Senate Print Number 4988 and ask
3 that said bill retain its place on the Third
4 Reading Calendar.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
6 amendments are received.
7 Senator Skelos.
8 SENATOR SKELOS:
9 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
10 could we call up Calendar Number 1250 by Senator
11 Holland.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
13 Calendar Number 1250, the clerk will read.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 1250, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 1468, an
16 act to amend the Social Services Law, in
17 relation to requiring an address as a condition
18 of receiving assistance.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
21 Explanation asked for.
22 Senator Holland.
23 SENATOR HOLLAND: This basically
9118
1 requires an address when somebody applies for
2 assistance.
3 Presently, the section reads at
4 the time he or she applies for public assistance
5 and care, the applicant shall, as a condition of
6 receiving such aid, present proof of his or her
7 identity to the Social Services official as the
8 department may require -- may by regulation
9 require, and we are adding this, "and an address
10 which shall be a residence, a public shelter or
11 such site as the district commissioner shall
12 deem appropriate for this subdivision" and this
13 is required because many people were ripping off
14 the system by getting post office boxes.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
17 Senator Paterson.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: We're down to
19 about the last bill, Senator Holland. I really
20 don't want to spoil your birthday, but I have a
21 few questions.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Does
23 Senator Holland yield?
9119
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
3 Senator yields.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Good. Senator
5 Holland, last week we passed a New York State
6 budget that provided for fingerprinting
7 enrollment that would prevent and detect what
8 would be fraud on the part of welfare
9 recipients. So with that legislation in place,
10 do you think that this bill is necessary?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: I believe if we
12 have finger-imaging totally statewide -- first
13 of all, if we get the waiver -- we need a waiver
14 for the AFDC. If we receive the waiver and we
15 implement it statewide, this would not be
16 necessary, but right now it is necessary. We
17 lost $1 million last year on people who are
18 double dipping, living in New Jersey and other
19 states and collecting from their state and also
20 from the state of New York. So this is just an
21 interim measure until we get the waiver and
22 finger-imaging statewide.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator,
9120
1 then we agree that if we get the fing... for
2 statewide, you know, multiple enrollment fraud,
3 the finger-imaging would probably cure that.
4 Now, let's go to the issue that
5 you raised in your answer that -- of multi-state
6 fraud. I think that's an issue where we weren't
7 really investigating. Up until very recently
8 when we started investigating, what we found was
9 that the comparison of Social Security numbers
10 is a protection along with the cross-listings
11 that they can actually protect us from what
12 would be multi-state fraud, so I'm contending
13 that with the combination of these two avenues
14 that we can take, that we should be able to
15 alleviate the problem without necessarily having
16 to enact this bill.
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: The checking of
18 the computer list -- the cross-checking of the
19 computer list which is being done with a number
20 of states, including Washington -- sounding
21 states, including Washington, D.C. and Puerto
22 Rico, I believe.
23 The problem is, Senator, the only
9121
1 ones we're catching are the ones that are not
2 smart enough to change their name or change
3 their Social Security number. We're only
4 catching those who use the same name in the two
5 or three states and the same Social Security
6 number. If they are a little more intelligent
7 and use a different name or a different Social
8 Security number or ID, then we can't -- we have
9 no chance of catching them at this -- and the
10 post office box, we have no chance of catching
11 them at this point.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, if
13 you would continue to yield.
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
16 Senator continues to yield.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Can the same
18 manipulative behavior be applied to giving false
19 addresses?
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Can the same
21 manipulative behavior be -
22 SENATOR PATERSON: In other
23 words, you were talking about people that give
9122
1 the wrong Social Security number and that way
2 they give the wrong name and that's the way they
3 avoid the cross-listing. So I'm just following
4 that out to the degree that applies to this bill
5 in saying can they do the same thing with the
6 addresses?
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I brought that
8 up because you brought that up, Senator, but,
9 yes, you could use a different post office box
10 and that's all that's required, the regulations
11 today.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: But, Senator,
13 can you also use a different street address?
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, you could
15 and, hopefully, the commissioner or his or her
16 representative will know or check if there is a
17 house there and if you live there or it's not a
18 vacant lot or -- et cetera.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, you
20 just addressed the authority of the
21 Commissioner. Now, for purposes of election
22 law, for voting purposes around this country, we
23 have found that places such as a park bench or a
9123
1 shelter are valid. They are actually legal
2 addresses for the purposes of voting. The
3 question that I have for you arising out of that
4 information is that the commissioner in your
5 legislation seems to have the discretionary
6 power to determine whether or not the address is
7 apt. Do you think that's inherently illegal as
8 the legislation is drafted to give the
9 commissioner that authority to supersede what
10 has actually been an interpretation that courts
11 have made of our Constitution?
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: I think we may
13 pay our commissioners and state managers a great
14 deal of money in many events and that they
15 should have the intelligence and responsibility
16 to check whether the individual lives there or
17 not, and I don't know if you're talking about
18 the Election Law, whether that crosses this or
19 not. I doubt it, Senator.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator,
21 I think that there are a number of intelligent
22 people -
23 SENATOR HOLLAND: I hope so.
9124
1 SENATOR PATERSON: -- and a
2 number of responsible people, and what I'm
3 really asking you is often among people of that
4 achievement there are -- there is a disagreement
5 as to what is and what is not constitutional,
6 and since we have this discretionary power
7 vested in the commissioner, what I'm suggesting
8 is that we're going to have an independent and
9 in many ways, individual interpretation
10 depending on where you are as to what a
11 residence is, when, in fact, we have codified or
12 at least interpreted that we know that that
13 residence can be a shelter or a park bench. I'm
14 just saying that what the legislation may
15 produce as it's drafted is confusion among
16 commissioners even if they are well paid and
17 intelligent.
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't think I
19 agree with the park bench unless the
20 commissioner or some individual went and
21 approved that, Senator.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator,
23 we're assuming that this is not a barrier
9125
1 against homeless people receiving assistance,
2 but let's take the individual who is not trying
3 to, in any way be multi-enrolled in different
4 places. Let's just take an individual who is
5 following the rules. If they're staying at a
6 shelter and then they change shelters, how do
7 they address that in terms of their address that
8 they are filing? In other words, now they have
9 the wrong address and if the commissioner so
10 deems, they will become ineligible.
11 In other words, we're talking
12 about often an inertia, a transient group of
13 people who, though there may be fraud committed
14 among some, we would not interpret all of them
15 or certainly the majority of them to be that
16 way; the records have never shown that, but what
17 we're creating is a -- an imposition relating to
18 the actual reason that they are seeking Social
19 Services assistance in the first place which is
20 that they are indigent which goes with it a
21 number of characteristics, and one of them being
22 the failure often to establish a consistent
23 residence.
9126
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: I think you're
2 assuming that we're trying to take these people
3 out of the system and we're really not trying to
4 do that. All we're trying to take out is the
5 people who are trying to steal from the system,
6 and if it is a park bench and the commissioner
7 says, "Fine. I know you're there all the time.
8 People tell me you're there all the time. We'll
9 allow that for you", and he says that or she
10 says that, that's a different story than just
11 allowing a post office box with no investigation
12 at all; to me, it is, anyway.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
14 to Senator Holland, I think sometimes this is
15 the point that we have gotten into discussion
16 before, Senator. I hope that you're not
17 assuming that I am accusing you of having an
18 intent because what I'm really discussing with
19 you has nothing to do with intent. I would,
20 therefore, be assured that we're not intending
21 to exclude anyone from the system. What I'm
22 saying is that it is a consequence of the rules
23 that we would be promulgating through this
9127
1 legislation that these individuals, many of whom
2 are alcoholics, they have severe substance abuse
3 problems, they are mentally ill and these
4 individuals would be affected in such a way as
5 if there was an attempt and -- but we're not
6 saying that there is, Senator.
7 What we're saying is the results
8 are what we are contesting and the results are
9 that it's going to be very difficult for them to
10 maintain a consistent address when they are
11 shuttling from one shelter and another, when
12 they're often sleeping in places that can't even
13 be defined necessarily, but they are in need of
14 Social Services and the fact that they have this
15 problem does not relate to what may be a valid
16 concern that you are addressing in this
17 legislation which is to cut down on those who
18 dishonestly commit a fraud against the system
19 and need to be -- we need to have that problem
20 curtailed.
21 But what I'm saying to you,
22 Senator, is there are some people who are
23 perfectly legitimate in their problem of
9128
1 establishing an address and, in my opinion,
2 they're being penalized when I have cited
3 through you other ways, particularly the finger
4 imaging -- and I won't be disingenuous about
5 this. I disagreed with it, but we do have it
6 now and the fact that we do, as far as I'm
7 concerned, would ameliorate the problem best in
8 this situation, because to go further and to
9 establish the address as a necessary factor, in
10 my opinion, would create a greater position -
11 imposition to the many in an attempt to catch
12 the few.
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I think we
14 agree. We're trying to take out the bad guys.
15 That's exactly right. We're not trying to take
16 out anybody else. That's exactly right. Finger
17 imaging is the better solution; that's exactly
18 right, but in the meantime, I think we should
19 make every effort to take out the people who are
20 stealing from the system and just giving a post
21 office box, and I really can't say it any other
22 way than that, Senator.
23 We're not trying to take out
9129
1 people who should be taken care of, and the
2 local commissioner is certainly more
3 knowledgeable than you or I about the people on
4 his roles and who needs assistance and who
5 wanders around and doesn't continue an address,
6 and he will know those people or his people will
7 know those people and he can make arrangements
8 for them, he or she.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
10 much.
11 I'm going to finish right here,
12 Senator.
13 Mr. President, on the bill.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: On
15 the bill, Senator Paterson.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: The finger
17 imaging alternative is probably the most
18 accurate, and I think that it will be very
19 difficult for those who specialize in fraud to
20 work around finger-imaging, which is why it
21 would be the best solution, even though there
22 are problems inherent with its adoption, but we
23 have it and it's going to be the law and it's
9130
1 something that we will accept and respond to.
2 But what I'm saying on this
3 particular piece of legislation is that those
4 who specialize in committing frauds, those who
5 already use phony names and those who already
6 use phony Social Security numbers moving down
7 the line to now coming up with a fabricated
8 address will really be an easy thing for them,
9 for those who engage in it, but for the
10 individuals who would have been best served by
11 being able to use a shelter or a park bench,
12 which is something that's legal, as their actual
13 address, they would be harmed unconditionally by
14 the passage of this legislation for the
15 following two reasons:
16 One, because their transient
17 behavior and life-style almost compels an
18 automatic problem and then, secondly, we have
19 the added issue of the fact that it is hard for
20 them to refile and keep up with an agency on
21 their own activities when, unfortunately, they
22 have trouble doing that on their own.
23 And so this is really a
9131
1 comparison. I think Senator Holland and I agree
2 on what the objective is, but this is really a
3 balancing of the values of trying to curtail and
4 to detect welfare fraud and at the same time,
5 trying to establish the opportunity for indigent
6 individuals, many of them homeless, to receive
7 that -- that kind of service.
8 It is my opinion that the finger
9 imaging is one that is really a protection but
10 that the address is really one that is actually
11 going to cause more problems for the many in
12 order to catch very few who even Senator Holland
13 concedes would have to really not be thinking
14 very much to go through the process of fabri
15 cating their names and their Social Security
16 numbers and not bothering to additionally use a
17 false address.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Read
19 the last section.
20 Senator Larkin.
21 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President,
22 there will be an immediate meeting of Rules
23 Committee in Room 332.
9132
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
2 Immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in Room
3 332. Read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect on the 30th day.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: Call
7 the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:
10 Results.
11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
12 the negative on Calendar 1250 are Senators
13 Abate, Connor, Espada, Mendez, Montgomery,
14 Paterson, Smith; also Senator Gold; also Senator
15 Stavisky. Ayes 50, nays 9.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
17 bill is passed.
18 Senator Larkin.
19 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President, I
20 believe we have a resolution at the desk by
21 Senator Paterson. Please read it.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
23 Secretary -- the Secretary should read the
9133
1 title.
2 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
3 Paterson, Legislative Resolution commending
4 Minnie L. Goka upon the occasion of her
5 retirement after 32 distinguished years as a
6 teacher, administrator, volunteer and church lay
7 leader in New York City.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
9 question is on the resolution. All those in
10 favor.
11 (Response of "Aye".)
12 All those opposed.
13 (There was no response.)
14 It appears the ayes have it.
15 The resolution is adopted.
16 Senator Larkin.
17 SENATOR LARKIN: Is there any
18 more housekeeping?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: No,
20 Senator.
21 SENATOR LARKIN: Stand at ease
22 awaiting a report from the Rules Committee, Mr.
23 President.
9134
1 ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO: The
2 house shall stand at ease waiting for a report
3 from the Rules Committee.
4 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at
5 ease from 5:39 p.m. until 5:49 p.m.)
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
7 if we could return to reports of standing
8 committees, I believe there's a report of the
9 Rules Committee at the desk. I ask that it be
10 read.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: The
12 clerk will read.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
14 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
15 following bills:
16 Senate Print 932, by Senator
17 Holland, an act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law,
18 in relation to the placement of state-owned
19 community residences;
20 2044, by Senator Holland, an act
21 to amend the Social Services Law, in relation to
22 recovery of certain medical assistance expenses;
23 2586, by Senator Velella, an act
9135
1 to amend Chapter 576 of the Laws of 1975;
2 3306, by Senator Santiago, an act
3 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its
4 interest in certain real property;
5 3486-A, by Senator DiCarlo, an
6 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
7 relation to the powers of the Dormitory
8 Authority;
9 3831, by Senator Kuhl, an act
10 providing to Thomas A. Cassidy credit for past
11 service time;
12 SENATOR SKELOS: Can we just wait
13 a minute so Senator Waldon could record a vote
14 and then we can continue.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: Senator
16 Waldon, why do you rise?
17 SENATOR WALDON: I respectfully
18 request unanimous consent to be recorded in the
19 negative on Senate 1468.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: Without
21 objection, so ordered.
22 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
23 much. Thank you, Senator.
9136
1 THE SECRETARY: Senate Print
2 3866, by Senator Hannon, an act to amend the
3 Education Law, in relation to experimental
4 alternative institutional support programs;
5 3868, by Senator Kuhl, an act to
6 require the New York State and Local Employees
7 Requirement System to accept requirement
8 applications;
9 3869-A, by Senator Larkin, an act
10 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in
11 relation to penalties for mistreated animals;
12 3910, by Senator Maltese, an act
13 to amend the Tax Law, in relation to exempting
14 certain parts, tools, supplies and services;
15 4389, by Senator Stachowski, an
16 act authorizing the city of Buffalo to
17 discontinue as parklands certain lands;
18 4568, by Senator Seward, an act
19 to amend the Civil Service Law, in relation to
20 granting residence of the city of Ithaca and the
21 town of Ithaca a preference in appointment;
22 4630, by Senator Libous, an act
23 to amend the Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to
9137
1 limiting the use of state funds;
2 4738, by Senator Jones, an act to
3 authorize the city of Rochester to discontinue
4 the use of certain lands as parklands;
5 4822, by Senator Libous, an act
6 to amend the Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to
7 employees of the Mental Hygiene Legal Service;
8 4864, by Senator Cook, an act to
9 amend the Education Law and the Public Officers
10 Law, in relation to the defense and
11 indemnification of a member;
12 4968, by Senator Velella, an act
13 to amend the Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to
14 service as president of boards of visitors;
15 5026-A, by Senator Hannon, an act
16 to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
17 enacting the Engineers and Architects Good
18 Samaritan Act;
19 5106-A, by Senator Saland, an act
20 to amend the Social Services Law and the
21 Education Law, in relation to the protection of
22 pupils;
23 5238, by Senator Hannon, an act
9138
1 to amend the Public Health Law, in relation to
2 the quality assurance of managed care plans;
3 5273, by Senator Maltese, an act
4 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
5 relation to parking violations;
6 5282, by Senator Cook, an act to
7 provide for retirement service credit in the New
8 York state and local police and fire retirement
9 system for Richard C. Paolino;
10 5359, by Senator Rath, an act to
11 amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules and the
12 Executive Law, in relation to extending the
13 statute of limitations; and
14 3585, by Senator Gonzalez, an act
15 authorizing the city of New York to reconvey its
16 interest in certain real property.
17 All bills ordered directly for
18 third reading.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: I move we accept
20 the report of the Rules Committee.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: All
22 those in favor of accepting the Rules Committee
23 report signify by saying aye.
9139
1 (Response of "Aye".)
2 Opposed, nay.
3 (There was no response.)
4 The report is accepted.
5 Senator Rath, why do you rise?
6 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President, I'd
7 like to offer the following amendments to
8 Calendar Number 1276, Senate Print Number
9 3869-A, and ask that said bill retain its place
10 on the Third Reading Calendar. It's on behalf
11 of Senator Larkin.
12 Additionally, Mr. President, on
13 behalf of Senator Nozzolio, I'd like to call up
14 his bill, Print Number 580 recalled from the
15 Assembly which is at the desk.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: The
17 Secretary will read.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 42, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 580, an
20 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
21 relation to creating the Cayuga County Water and
22 Sewer Authority.
23 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President, I
9140
1 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
2 bill was passed.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: Call
4 the roll on reconsideration.
5 (The Secretary called the roll on
6 reconsideration.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: Senator
9 Rath.
10 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President, I
11 now offer the following amendments.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: The
13 amendments are received and adopted.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
15 is there any other housekeeping at the desk?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: There
17 is no other housekeeping.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Without
19 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until
20 Tuesday, June 13th, at 10:00 a.m. sharp.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT LARKIN: The
22 Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday, June the
23 13th, at 10:00 a.m. At the request of the
9141
1 Majority Leader, those of you in your offices,
2 please understand he desires everybody to be in
3 this chamber at 10:00 a.m., Tuesday, June the
4 13th.
5 (Whereupon, at 5:57 p.m., the
6 Senate adjourned.)
7
8
9
10
11