Regular Session - June 28, 1995

                                                                 
10904

         1

         2

         3

         4

         5

         6

         7

         8

         9                       ALBANY, NEW YORK

        10                        June 28, 1995

        11                         10:03 a.m.

        12

        13

        14                       REGULAR SESSION

        15

        16

        17

        18       SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President

        19       STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary

        20

        21

        22

        23











                                                             
10905

         1                      P R O C E E D I N G S

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         3       Senate will come to order.  Members please find

         4       their chairs, staff their places.

         5                      Ask everybody in the chamber to

         6       rise and say the Pledge of Allegiance to the

         7       Flag.

         8                      (The assemblage repeated the

         9       Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

        10                      In the absence of clergy, may we

        11       bow our heads in a moment of silence.

        12                      (A moment of silence was

        13       observed. )

        14                      Reading of the Journal.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  In Senate,

        16       Tuesday, June 27th.  The Senate met pursuant to

        17       adjournment, Senator Holland in the Chair upon

        18       designation of the Temporary President.  The

        19       Journal of Monday, June 26th, was read and

        20       approved.  On motion, Senate adjourned.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Hearing

        22       no objection, the Journal stands approved as

        23       read.











                                                             
10906

         1                      Presentation of petitions.

         2                      Messages from the Assembly.

         3                      Messages from the Governor.

         4                      Reports of standing committees.

         5       Secretary will read.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Bruno,

         7       from the Committee on Rules, reports the

         8       following bills:

         9                      Senate Print 15B, by Senator

        10       Farley, an act to amend the Public Health Law,

        11       in relation to creating a Health Care

        12       Information Privacy Advisory Board;

        13                      32A, by Senator Holland, an act

        14       to amend the Highway Law, in relation to

        15       increasing bonded indebtedness;

        16                      5025, by Senator Goodman, an act

        17       to amend the Tax Law and the Administrative Code

        18       of the city of New York, in relation to

        19       increasing the effectiveness and efficiency of

        20       tax collection;

        21                      2302, by Senator Stavisky, an act

        22       to amend the Penal Law, in relation to penalties

        23       for criminal solicitation;











                                                             
10907

         1                      4746A, by Senator Saland, an act

         2       in relation to authorizing the city of Beacon,

         3       county of Dutchess, to opt out of the

         4       provisions;

         5                      5045A, by Senator Velella, an act

         6       to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in

         7       relation to authorizing a residential parking

         8       system;

         9                      4827A, by Senator Maziarz, an act

        10       to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation

        11       to the financing and construction of certain

        12       facilities;

        13                      5403, by Senator Nozzolio, an act

        14       to amend the Penal Law, in relation to estab

        15       lishing the crime of aggravated harassment;

        16                      5447, by Senator Rath, an act to

        17       amend the Executive Law, in relation to changing

        18       the name of the Office for Regulatory and

        19       Management Assistance;

        20                      5398, by Senator Goodman, an act

        21       to amend the General Business Law, in relation

        22       to delinquent accounts;

        23                      621, by Senator Stafford, an act











                                                             
10908

         1       to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation

         2       to the assessment of private forest lands;

         3                      1094, by Senator Gonzalez, an act

         4       to amend the Election Law, in relation to

         5       imposing penalties;

         6                      3066B, by Senator Larkin, an act

         7       to amend the General Obligations Law, in

         8       relation to authorizing a charge of $20;

         9                      3197, by Senator LaValle, an act

        10       to amend the Town Law, in relation to making

        11       technical changes;

        12                      3215, by Senator Larkin, an act

        13       to amend the Administrative Code of the city of

        14       New York, in relation to the change of

        15       retirement options;

        16                      3342A, by Senator Padavan, an act

        17       to amend the Public Health Law, and the Family

        18       Court Act, in relation to notice of abortions;

        19                      3377A, by Senator Seward, an act

        20       to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation

        21       to conflict of interest;

        22                      3484, by Senator Padavan, an act

        23       in relation to the reduction of retirement











                                                             
10909

         1       benefits received by long-term New York City

         2       employees;

         3                      3567, by Senator Larkin, an act

         4       to permit Olaf Allen Takvam to revoke a previous

         5       election of death benefit coverage;

         6                      3789A, by Senator Larkin, an act

         7       to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation

         8       to making technical and clarifying amendments;

         9                      4113B, by Senator Velella, an act

        10       to amend the General Business Law, the Public

        11       Health Law and the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in

        12       relation to safety requirements;

        13                      4183C, by Senator Skelos, an act

        14       to amend the General Business Law, and the State

        15       Finance Law, in relation to the licensing of

        16       executive protection specialists;

        17                      4202, by Senator Spano, an act to

        18       provide permanent competitive civil service

        19       status as police officers;

        20                      4254, by Senator Larkin, an act

        21       to authorize the town of Cornwall to discontinue

        22       certain park land;

        23                      4320, by Senator Skelos, an act











                                                             
10910

         1       to amend the Retirement and Social Security Law,

         2       in relation to the retirement of supervising

         3       fire inspectors;

         4                      4379A, by Senator Spano, an act

         5       to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation

         6       to the powers of certain special patrolmen;

         7                      4466A, by Senator Larkin, an act

         8       to incorporate the voluntary and exempt fire

         9       men's benevolent association of Coldenham, Inc.;

        10                      4490, by Senator Libous, an act

        11       to amend the Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to

        12       disclosure by members;

        13                      4636A, by Senator Maltese, an act

        14       to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

        15       authorizing a sentence of community service;

        16                      4696A, by Senator Skelos, an act

        17       to amend the Retirement and Social Security Law,

        18       in relation to the retirement of ambulance

        19       medical technicians;

        20                      4714, by Senator Velella, an act

        21       to amend the Executive Law, in relation to

        22       obtaining nationwide criminal history checks;

        23                      4753, by Senator Padavan, an act











                                                             
10911

         1       to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation

         2       to providing coverage;

         3                      4882A, by Senator Larkin, an act

         4       to amend the Real Property Tax Law, and Chapter

         5       602 of the Laws of 1993;

         6                      5086A, by Senator Kuhl, an act to

         7       amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in

         8       relation to transportation and storage of

         9       pasteurized milk;

        10                      5105A, by Senator Saland, an act

        11       to amend the Uniform City Court Act, in relation

        12       to the City Court of the city of Poughkeepsie;

        13                      5251A, by Senator Stafford, an

        14       act to validate, ratify and confirm certain

        15       proceedings;

        16                      5294, by Senator Rath, an act to

        17       authorize Judith E. Fillinger, employed by the

        18       county of Erie, as a program analyst;

        19                      5378, by Senator Lack, an act to

        20       amend the State Finance Law, in relation to

        21       court facilities;

        22                      5384A, by Senator Lack, an act to

        23       amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, in











                                                             
10912

         1       relation to storage of alcoholic beverages;

         2                      5431, by Senator Velella, an act

         3       to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

         4       clarifying and revising liability insurance

         5       requirements;

         6                      5433, by Senator Lack, an act to

         7       authorize the State University of New York to

         8       convey certain parcels;

         9                      5473, by Senator Hoblock, an act

        10       to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in

        11       relation to authorizing a residential parking

        12       permit system in the city of Albany;

        13                      5479, by Senator Volker, an act

        14       to enact the Persistent Child Predator Act;

        15                      5480, by Senator Tully, an act to

        16       amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in

        17       relation to sanctions;

        18                      5491, by Senator Volker, an act

        19       to amend Chapter 737 of the Laws of 1994;

        20                      5494, by Senator Volker, an act

        21       to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and the

        22       Public Authorities Law, in relation to peace

        23       officer status;











                                                             
10913

         1                      5497A, by Senator DeFrancisco, an

         2       act authorizing the establishment of the

         3       Northern Onondaga Public Library District;

         4                      5499, by Senator Volker, an act

         5       to amend the Criminal Procedure Law Reform Act

         6       of 1995;

         7                      5504, by Senator Volker, an act

         8       to amend the Public Authorities Law and the

         9       Executive Law, in relation to the creation of

        10       the Livingston County Sewer and Water Authority;

        11                      5505, by Senator Holland, an act

        12       to amend a chapter of the laws of 1995 as

        13       proposed in Legislative Bill Number A. 6516;

        14                      5507, by Senator Stafford, an act

        15       to authorize the Commissioner of Environmental

        16       Conservation;

        17                      5517, by Senator DiCarlo, an act

        18       to amend the Tax Law and Chapter 190 of the Laws

        19       of 1990;

        20                      5520, by Senator Spano, an act in

        21       relation to establishing a public work enforce

        22       ment fund;

        23                      5522, by Senator Goodman, an act











                                                             
10914

         1       authorizing the Dormitory Authority of the state

         2       of New York to plan, design and acquire;

         3                      5523, by Senator Goodman, an act

         4       to amend Chapter 54 of the Laws of 1995,

         5       enacting the Capital Projects Budget;

         6                      5525, by Senator Skelos, an act

         7       to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991, amend

         8       ing the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law;

         9                      5541, by Senator Bruno, an act to

        10       amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation to

        11       the Saratoga County Water Authority; and

        12                      5296, by Senator Abate, an act to

        13       amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to

        14       authorizing the Crime Victims Board to make

        15       limited awards.

        16                      All bills ordered directly for

        17       third reading.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

        19       objection, all bills are referred directly to

        20       third reading.

        21                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move we adopt.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

        23       to adopt the report of the Rules Committee.  All











                                                             
10915

         1       those in favor signify by saying aye.

         2                      (Response of "Aye.")

         3                      Opposed nay.

         4                      (There was no response. )

         5                      The Rules report is adopted.  The

         6       bills are ordered directly to third reading.

         7                      Reports from select committees.

         8                      Communications and reports from

         9       state officers.

        10                      Motions and resolutions.

        11                      Senator Farley.

        12                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Thank you, Mr.

        13       President.

        14                      On behalf of Senator Johnson, I

        15       wish to call up his bill, 4469, which was

        16       recalled from the Assembly which is now at the

        17       desk.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        19       will read the title.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        21       831, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 4469, an

        22       act to amend the Election Law, in relation to

        23       the transmitting of certain information.











                                                             
10916

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         2       Farley.

         3                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President, I

         4       now move to reconsider the vote by which this

         5       bill passed.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         7       will call the roll on reconsideration.

         8                      (The Secretary called the roll on

         9       reconsideration. )

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 38.

        11                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President, I

        12       now wish to recommit that bill.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  That bill

        14       is recommitted.

        15                      Senator Farley.

        16                      SENATOR FARLEY:  On behalf of

        17       Senator Goodman, I wish to call up his bill,

        18       Senate Print 5389, which was recalled from the

        19       Assembly which is now at the desk.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        21       will read the title.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       1424, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5389, an











                                                             
10917

         1       act to authorize the conveyance of certain

         2       lands.

         3                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President, I

         4       now move to reconsider the vote by which the

         5       bill passed.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

         7       to reconsider the vote by which the bill passed

         8       the house.  Secretary will call the roll on

         9       reconsideration.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        11       reconsideration. )

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 38.

        13                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President, I

        14       now offer the following amendments to that bill.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        16       Amendments are received and adopted.

        17                      Senator Farley.

        18                      SENATOR FARLEY:  On behalf of

        19       Senator Hoblock, I wish to call up his bill,

        20       3230, which having passed both houses and was

        21       not delivered to the Governor.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        23       will read the title.











                                                             
10918

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       375, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3230, an

         3       act to amend the Education Law, in relation to

         4       the board of education of the city of Albany.

         5                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I now move to

         6       reconsider the vote by which this bill was

         7       passed, and I ask that the bill be restored to

         8       the order of third reading.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        10       will call the roll on reconsideration.

        11                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        12       reconsideration. )

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 38.

        14                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President, I

        15       now offer up the following amendments to Senator

        16       Hoblock's bill.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Bill is

        18       restored to third reading calendar.  Amendments

        19       are received and adopted.

        20                      Senator Farley.

        21                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President,

        22       on behalf of Senator Goodman, I wish to call up

        23       his bill, Print 4002, which was recalled from











                                                             
10919

         1       the Assembly which is now at the desk.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         3       will read the title.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       936, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 4002, an

         6       act to amend the Public Buildings Law, in

         7       relation to deleting the value of limitation.

         8                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I now move to

         9       reconsider the vote by which this bill passed.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        11       will call the roll on reconsideration.

        12                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        13       reconsideration. )

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 38.

        15                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I now offer the

        16       following amendments.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        18       Amendments are received and adopted.

        19                      Senator Skelos.

        20                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President, I

        21       move we adopt the Resolution Calendar.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

        23       to adopt the Resolution Calendar.  All those in











                                                             
10920

         1       favor signify by saying aye.

         2                      (Response of "Aye.")

         3                      Opposed nay.

         4                      (There was no response. )

         5                      The Resolution Calendar is

         6       adopted.

         7                      Senator Skelos, we have some

         8       substitutions at the desk.  If it's all right,

         9       we could take those now.

        10                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Would you make

        11       the substitutions, please.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        13       will read.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 4,

        15       Senator Kuhl moves to discharge from the

        16       Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 2230B,

        17       and substitute it for the identical Calendar

        18       Number 61.

        19                      On page 4, Senator Marchi moves

        20       to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        21       Assembly Bill Number 4120A, and substitute it

        22       for the identical Calendar Number 165.

        23                      On page 5, Senator Skelos moves











                                                             
10921

         1       to discharge from the Committee on Rules

         2       Assembly Bill Number 6488C, and substitute it

         3       for the identical Calendar Number 564.

         4                      On page 5, Senator Levy moves to

         5       discharge from the Committee on Rules Assembly

         6       Bill Number 7896A, and substitute it for the

         7       identical Calendar Number 583.

         8                      And on page 7, Senator Maltese

         9       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        10       Assembly Bill Number 5329B, and substitute it

        11       for the identical Calendar Number 1445.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        13       Substitutions are ordered.

        14                      Senator Skelos, that brings us to

        15       the calendar.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        17       if we could take up the non-controversial

        18       calendar, please.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        20       will read the non-controversial Calendar Number

        21       61.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 4,

        23       Calendar Number 61, substituted earlier today,











                                                             
10922

         1       by member of the Assembly Parment, Assembly Bill

         2       Number 2230B, an act to amend the Agriculture

         3       and Markets Law and the Environmental

         4       Conservation Law, in relation to the siting of

         5       solid waste management facilities.

         6                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay it

         7       aside.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         9       bill aside.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       165, by member of the Assembly Connelly,

        12       Assembly Print Number 4120A, substituted earlier

        13       today, an act to amend the Public Authorities

        14       Law, in relation to and for the purpose of

        15       enabling the Dormitory Authority.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        17       will read the last section.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        19       act shall take effect immediately.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        21       roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        23                      (Pause)











                                                             
10923

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         2       will read the last section.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         4       act shall take effect immediately.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         6       roll.

         7                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

         9       the results when tabulated.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 31, nays

        11       one, Senator DiCarlo recorded in the negative.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        13       is passed.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        15       564, by member of the Assembly Becker, Assembly

        16       Bill Number 6488C, substituted earlier today, an

        17       act to amend the Nassau County Civil Divisions

        18       Act, in relation to the volunteer and exempt

        19       Firemen's Benevolent Association of Lynbrook,

        20       New York.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        22       will read the last section.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This











                                                             
10924

         1       act shall take effect immediately.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         3       roll.

         4                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         7       is passed.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       583, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,

        10       Assembly Bill Number 7896A, substituted earlier

        11       today.

        12                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay aside.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        14       bill aside.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        16       1445, by member of the Assembly McLaughlin,

        17       Assembly Bill Number 5329B, substituted earlier

        18       today, an act to amend the Penal Law, in

        19       relation to false reporting of incidents.

        20                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay it

        21       aside.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        23       bill aside.











                                                             
10925

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       1477, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,

         3       Assembly Bill Number 7825, substituted earlier

         4       today, an act to amend the Surrogate's Court

         5       Procedure Act, in relation to the appointment of

         6       a guardian ad litem.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         8       will read the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        10       act shall take effect immediately.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        12       roll.

        13                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        16       is passed.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       1491, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 5441, an

        19       act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and the

        20       Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to providing

        21       criminal history records.

        22                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay aside.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the











                                                             
10926

         1       bill aside.

         2                      Senator Skelos.

         3                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         4       would you call up Calendar Number 1445, by

         5       Senator Maltese.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         7       will read Calendar Number 1445.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       1445, by member of the Assembly McLaughlin,

        10       Assembly Print 5329B, an act to amend the Penal

        11       Law, in relation to false reporting of

        12       incidents.

        13                      SENATOR ONORATO:  Explanation.

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Could we have

        15       an explanation, Mr. President.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        17       will read the last section.

        18                      Senator Maltese, an explanation

        19       of Calendar Number 1445 has been asked for by

        20       Senator Dollinger.

        21                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Yes, Mr.

        22       President.

        23                      This section basically increases











                                                             
10927

         1       the penalty for the false reporting of an

         2       incident.  The -- it specifically applies to

         3       members of the volunteer firefighting units,

         4       fire department, the fire companies, the fire

         5       units or the volunteer ambulance corps,

         6       volunteer ambulance workers.

         7                      It requires that if they would

         8       suffer serious physical injury or be killed

         9       traveling to or returning from a firehouse, a

        10       police station or other quarters.  This specific

        11       section has been amended from a prior bill that

        12       did not include the returning to a firehouse,

        13       police station or the facilities from whence

        14       they came.

        15                      The reason that this was added is

        16       so that it would exclude, for instance, when the

        17       emergency vehicle was not on its way to or from

        18       an emergency rather than merely proceeding on

        19       some non-emergency trip.

        20                      The reporting -- the false

        21       reporting of incidents has become a very serious

        22       situation especially in the city of New York

        23       where the workers or others are seriously











                                                             
10928

         1       injured or killed when these emergency vehicles

         2       are -- are responding to an incident as a result

         3       of a false alarm.  The definitions include the

         4       definition of emergency vehicles and

         5       specifically in the case which groups would be

         6       covered by this specific legislation.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Dollinger.

         9                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        10       President, would the sponsor yield to a

        11       question?

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Maltese, do you yield to a question from Senator

        14       Dollinger.

        15                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Sure.

        16                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Does this

        17       legislation, in any way, affect the reporting of

        18       bomb threats?

        19                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Mr. President,

        20       no, this is not that type of legislation.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Another

        22       question, Mr. President, if the sponsor would

        23       yield.











                                                             
10929

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Continue

         2       to yield, Senator Maltese?

         3                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Yes.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       yields.

         6                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Isn't it a

         7       fact that, under state law, the false reporting

         8       of a bomb threat is about one year -- a one-year

         9       sentence of imprisonment and that, under federal

        10       law, if you call in a bomb threat to a federal

        11       building, the penalty is five times as great?

        12                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Mr. President,

        13       I was not aware of that startling revelation.

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Well, Mr.

        15       President, if the sponsor would yield to another

        16       question.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Maltese, you continue to yield?

        19                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Yes.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        21       continues to yield.

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        23       President, I would ask that this be laid aside











                                                             
10930

         1       so I could present an amendment -- it's

         2       sponsored by about 14 Senators -- that would

         3       increase the penalty for false reporting of a

         4       bomb threat to a state building, increase the

         5       penalty much like your bill would increase the

         6       penalty for false reporting and make it

         7       aggravated false reporting of an incident,

         8       increase the penalties, give our prosecutors the

         9       power to increase the penalties for false

        10       reporting of incidents.  That would be a false

        11       fire alarm or police alarm.

        12                      My bill would have the effect of

        13       quintupling the penalty in New York State for

        14       false reporting of a bomb scare.  It's really a

        15       bill that came out of the wake of the Oklahoma

        16       affair when there were bomb scares, a number of

        17       them in the Federal Building in Rochester and

        18       also in the state buildings in Rochester where

        19       buildings had to be closed, they had to be

        20       evacuated, and it would seem to me that that

        21       would send a strong message to people of this

        22       state that false reporting of incidents, both

        23       fire incidents and police incidents but a bomb











                                                             
10931

         1       threat where they clear out the building, and

         2       the potential for a bomb threat, it seems to me

         3       that would serve the goal that you seek and

         4       expand the penalties for the false reporting of

         5       a bomb threat.

         6                      I'd ask the Senator if he would

         7       just entertain an amendment which would include

         8       my bill.  I'll be glad to make it available to

         9       you.  I didn't know this bill was coming to the

        10       floor today, so that we could send a message not

        11       only those who falsely report fire alarms and

        12       police alarms but those who falsely report bomb

        13       threats that require the evacuation of our state

        14       buildings, that we're not going to be any more

        15       tolerant of that than the federal level.

        16                      Would you entertain such an

        17       amendment to the bill?

        18                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Mr. President,

        19       as my good colleague, Senator Dollinger, knows,

        20       we're speedily racing toward a deliberate

        21       adjournment, and the time is very short.  His

        22       legislation seems to have a most salutory

        23       purpose, and I would be glad, on the advent of a











                                                             
10932

         1       new session, to join him in that legislation, to

         2       have similar legislation with relation to

         3       placing a false bombs, bombs that are fixed to

         4       appear like a bomb but have no -- no mechanisms

         5       and would not ultimately result in any type of

         6       an explosion, but I don't believe that this

         7       specific legislation is the vehicle by which we

         8       can add those sections to this legislation.

         9                      I don't think this perhaps is the

        10       time to do that, but I certainly would join

        11       Senator Dollinger in his legislation at a more

        12       appropriate time.

        13                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        14       President, I appreciate the sponsor's comments.

        15       I understand that we are winding our way down

        16       here to a conclusion.  Unfortunately, often

        17       times I don't get a chance to know what bills

        18       are going to come from the floor.  When we make

        19       requests for bills to come out of committee, we

        20       don't know whether they're going to come out

        21       and, consequently, you can understand our

        22       position, where if we don't know what's going to

        23       happen on the floor, what bills are finally











                                                             
10933

         1       going to hit the passage point, and I appreciate

         2       your bill and we've looked at your bill that

         3       deals with the false placing of a bomb-like

         4       device that requires the police to come in and

         5       bring out the dogs and evacuate the building.  I

         6       support that bill as well.

         7                      It just seems to me that a

         8       comprehensive approach to trying to send the

         9       right message to people who are taking advantage

        10       of the police, taking advantage of the public,

        11       taking advantage of the firefighters, it seems

        12       to me that we can send a comprehensive message

        13       by including your bill with respect to the false

        14       placing, and our bill with respect to the false

        15       reporting of the bomb threat and this bill which

        16       I think is also a good bill that does something

        17       effective as well.

        18                      If we're trying to get a message

        19       out to people of this state that these are no

        20       longer childish pranks, these are no longer

        21       boyish pranks, girlish planks, these are no

        22       longer things that you do for fun in the middle

        23       of the summer so that you see the police and the











                                                             
10934

         1       firemen come and stick around your neighborhood

         2       for a matter of a couple hours, these are far

         3       more serious things.  They are resulting in

         4       injuries.

         5                      Your bill properly points that

         6       out, but I would just encourage you, if it's

         7       possible, to entertain this amendment.  Frankly,

         8       we don't have it done yet, I don't believe, on

         9       this side yesterday, but it seems to me that we

        10       should be sending a comprehensive message about

        11       how we deal with the problem that you really

        12       properly point out, which is the dangers created

        13       when people play around with the telephone and

        14       falsely report incidents.

        15                      So I don't believe we have the

        16       amendment ready at this point, but I'd look

        17       forward to your support next year.  Maybe we can

        18       put your bill, my bill together, take it to the

        19       other house and get the whole package done.

        20       It's something that's long overdue.  We need to

        21       send a powerful message, and I'll be reporting

        22       in favor of this bill, Mr. President.

        23                      It's a good start.  I hope we can











                                                             
10935

         1       do more.  I think we can do more.  I wanted to

         2       do it today, but if we can do it next year, that

         3       will be fine.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         5       will read the last section.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         7       act shall take effect on the first day of

         8       November.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        10       roll.

        11                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        14       is passed.

        15                      Senator Skelos.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Skelos.

        19                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Would you please

        20       lay aside Senator Libous' bill, 1491, for the

        21       day.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Calendar

        23       Number 1491 will be laid aside for the day.











                                                             
10936

         1                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Your bill,

         2       Calendar Number 61, we're laying aside

         3       temporarily, some questions to be asked, so at

         4       this time if we can take up Senate Supplemental

         5       Calendar Number 1, non-controversial.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         7       will read Senate Supplemental Calendar Number 1

         8       non-controversial.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Farley

        10       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        11       Assembly Bill Number 161A, and substitute it for

        12       the identical Calendar Number 416.

        13                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay aside.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        15       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

        16       the title.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       416, by member of the Assembly Feldman, Assembly

        19       Print 161A, an act to amend the Public Health

        20       Law, in relation to creating a Health Care

        21       Information Privacy Advisory Board.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        23       bill aside.











                                                             
10937

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       565, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 32A, an

         3       act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to

         4       increasing bonded indebtedness in the town of

         5       Ramapo, Rockland County.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

         7       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

         8       read the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        10       act shall take effect immediately.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        12       roll.

        13                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        16       is passed.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       942, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5025, an

        19       act to amend the Tax Law and the Administrative

        20       Code of the city of New York.

        21                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay aside.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        23       bill aside.











                                                             
10938

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       1089, by Senator Stavisky, Senate Print 2302, an

         3       act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

         4       penalties for criminal solicitation.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         6       will read the last section.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 8.  This

         8       act shall take effect on the first day of

         9       November.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        11       roll.

        12                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        15       bill's passed.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        17       1259, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4746A, an

        18       act in relation to authorizing the city of

        19       Beacon, county of Dutchess, to opt out of the

        20       provisions of Chapter 602.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        22       will read the last section.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This











                                                             
10939

         1       act shall take effect immediately.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         3       roll.

         4                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         7       is passed.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       1312, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 5045A, an

        10       act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in

        11       relation to authorizing a residential parking

        12       system in the village of Pelham.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

        14       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

        15       read the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        19       roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        23       is passed.











                                                             
10940

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar -

         2       Senator Maziarz moves to discharge from the

         3       Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 7610A,

         4       and substitute it for the identical Calendar

         5       Number 1416.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         7       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

         8       the title.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       1416, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,

        11       Assembly Print Number 7610A, an act to amend the

        12       Public Authorities Law, in relation to financing

        13       and construction of certain facilities.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        15       will read the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        19       roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        23       is passed.











                                                             
10941

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       1428, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 5403.

         3                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay aside.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         5       bill aside.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       1433, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 5447, an act

         8       to amend the Executive Law, in relation to

         9       changing the name of the Office for Regula...

        10                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay aside.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        12       bill aside.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Goodman

        14       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        15       Assembly Bill Number 5950A, and substitute it

        16       for the identical Calendar Number 1457.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        18       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

        19       the title.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        21       1457, by member of the Assembly Eve, Assembly

        22       Print Number 5950A, an act to amend -

        23                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay aside.











                                                             
10942

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         2       bill aside.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       1495, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 621, an

         5       act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in

         6       relation to the assessment of private forest

         7       lands.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         9       will read the last section.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        11       act shall take effect immediately.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        13       roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 44.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        17       is passed.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       1496, by Senator Gonzalez, Senate Print 1094, an

        20       act to amend the Election Law, in relation to

        21       imposing penalties for inducing a person to be a

        22       candidate for election.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary











                                                             
10943

         1       will read the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         3       act shall take effect on the first day of

         4       November.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         6       roll.

         7                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 45.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        10       is passed.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1497, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 3066B, an

        13       act to amend the General Obligations Law, in

        14       relation to authorizing a charge of $20 for

        15       unpaid or dishonored checks or drafts.

        16                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay aside.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        18       bill aside.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator LaValle

        20       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        21       Assembly Bill Number 5480, and substitute it for

        22       the identical Calendar Number 1498.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:











                                                             
10944

         1       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

         2       the title.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       1498, by member of the Assembly McGee, Assembly

         5       Print Number 5480, an act to amend the Town Law,

         6       in relation to making technical changes.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         8       will read the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        10       act shall take effect immediately.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        12       roll.

        13                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 45.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        16       is passed.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       1499, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 3215, an

        19       act to amend the Administrative Code of the city

        20       of New York, in relation to the change of

        21       retirement options.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

        23       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will











                                                             
10945

         1       read the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 7.  This

         3       act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         5       roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 45.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         9       is passed.

        10                      Senator Dollinger, why do you

        11       rise?

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. President,

        13       just a point of order.  Could somebody direct me

        14       where the bills are located that we're doing.  I

        15       don't seem to have them on my desk.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  They're at the

        17       front of your desk.

        18                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  I've been to

        19       the front of my desk and they're not there.

        20                      SENATOR JONES:  This isn't the

        21       bills; it's just the calendar.

        22                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        23       if we could stand at ease.











                                                             
10946

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         2       Senate will stand at ease.

         3                      (Whereupon at 10:39 a.m., the

         4       Senate stood at ease until 10:55 a.m.)

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senate

         7       will come to order.

         8                      Senator Skelos.

         9                      SENATOR SKELOS:  If we could

        10       continue with the Supplemental Calendar Number

        11       1.  I believe we're at Calendar Number 1500,

        12       non-controversial.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        14       Secretary will continue to call the

        15       non-controversial calendar on Supplemental

        16       Calendar 1, beginning at Calendar Number 1500,

        17       by Senator Padavan.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       1500, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 3342A.

        20                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay aside.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        22       bill aside.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number











                                                             
10947

         1       1501, by Senator Seward.

         2                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Lay aside.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         4       bill aside.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         6       1502, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 3484, an

         7       act in relation to the reduction of retirement

         8       benefits.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

        10       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

        11       read the last section.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        13       act shall take effect immediately.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        15       roll.

        16                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        19       is passed.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        21       1503, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 3567, an

        22       act to permit Olaf Allen Takvam to revoke a

        23       previous election of death benefit coverage.











                                                             
10948

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         2       will read the last section.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

         4       act shall take effect immediately.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         6       roll.

         7                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        10       is passed.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1504, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print -

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside,

        14       please.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        16       bill aside.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Velella

        18       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        19       Assembly Bill Number 5954C, and substitute it

        20       for the identical Calendar Number 1505.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        22       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

        23       the title.











                                                             
10949

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       1505, by member of the Assembly Kaufman,

         3       Assembly Print Number 5954C, an act to amend the

         4       General Business Law, the Public Health Law and

         5       the Vehicle and Traffic Law.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         8       bill aside.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       1506, by Senator Skelos.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Bill is

        12       high.  Lay the bill aside.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       1507, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4202, an

        15       act to permit -- to provide permanent

        16       competitive civil service status as police

        17       officers.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

        19       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

        20       read the last section.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 6.  This

        22       act shall take effect immediately.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the











                                                             
10950

         1       roll.

         2                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         5       is passed.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       1508, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 4254, an

         8       act to authorize the town of Cornwall to

         9       discontinue certain park lands.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

        11       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

        12       read the last section.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        14       act shall take effect immediately.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        16       roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        20       bill's passed.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       1509, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4320, an

        23       act to amend the Retirement and Social Security











                                                             
10951

         1       Law, in relation to the retirement of

         2       supervising fire inspectors.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

         4       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

         5       read the last section.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 5.  This

         7       act shall take effect immediately.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         9       roll.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        13       is passed.

        14                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Skelos.

        17                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Would you please

        18       recognize Senator Present.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Chair

        20       recognizes Senator Present.

        21                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        22       there will be an immediate meeting of the

        23       Commerce, Economic Development and Small











                                                             
10952

         1       Business Committee in Room 332.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Immediate

         3       meeting of the Commerce, Economic Development

         4       and Small Business Committee in the Majority

         5       Conference Room, Room 332.  Immediate meeting of

         6       the Commerce, Economic Development and Small

         7       Business Committee in the Majority Conference

         8       Room, Room 332.

         9                      Secretary will continue to call

        10       the non-controversial calendar.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1510, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4379A.

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside,

        14       please.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        16       bill aside.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       1511, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 4466A, an

        19       act to incorporate the Volunteer and Exempt

        20       Firemen's Benevolent Association of Coldenham,

        21       Inc.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        23       will read the last section.











                                                             
10953

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 8.  This

         2       act shall take effect immediately.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         4       roll.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         8       is passed.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar -

        10       Senator Libous moves to discharge from the

        11       Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 6783,

        12       and substitute it for the identical Calendar

        13       Number 1512.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        15       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

        16       the title.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       1512, by member of the Assembly Brennan,

        19       Assembly Print Number 6783, an act to amend the

        20       Mental Hygiene Law, in relation to disclosure by

        21       members, officers and employees.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        23       will read the last section.











                                                             
10954

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         2       act shall take effect immediately.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         4       roll.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         8       bill's passed.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Maltese

        10       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        11       Assembly Bill Number 6561A, and substitute it

        12       for the identical Calendar Number 1513.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        14       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

        15       the title.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        17       1513, by member of the Assembly Katz, Assembly

        18       Print Number 6561A, an act to amend the Penal

        19       Law, in relation to authorizing a sentence of

        20       community service.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        22       will read the last section.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This











                                                             
10955

         1       act shall take effect on the first day of

         2       November.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         4       roll.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         8       is passed.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       1514, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print Number

        11       4696A, an act to amend the Retirement and Social

        12       Security Law, in relation to the retirement of

        13       ambulance medical technicians in the county of

        14       Nassau.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

        16       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

        17       read the last section.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 6.  This

        19       act shall take effect January 1st.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        21       roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.











                                                             
10956

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         2       is passed.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       1515, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4714, an

         5       act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to

         6       obtaining nationwide criminal history checks.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         8       will read the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        10       act shall take effect 60 days after it shall

        11       have become law.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        13       roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 47.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        17       bill's passed.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       1516, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 4753, an

        20       act to amend the General Municipal Law, in

        21       relation to providing coverage for injuries

        22       sustained.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary











                                                             
10957

         1       will read the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         3       act shall take effect January 1st.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         5       roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 47.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         9       is passed.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       1517, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 4882A, an

        12       act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and

        13       Chapter 602 of the Laws of 1993.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        15       will read the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 24.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        19       roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 47.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        23       is passed.











                                                             
10958

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Kuhl

         2       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

         3       Assembly Bill Number 7645B, and substitute it

         4       for the identical Calendar Number 1518.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         6       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

         7       the title.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       1518, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,

        10       Assembly Print Number 7645B, an act to amend the

        11       Agriculture and Markets Law, in relation to

        12       transportation and storage of pasteurized milk.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        14       will read the last section.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2. This

        16       act shall take effect on the 90th day.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        18       roll.

        19                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        22       is passed.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number











                                                             
10959

         1       1519, by Senator Saland.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         3       is high.  Lay the bill aside.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       1520, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5251A,

         6       an act to legalize, validate, ratify and confirm

         7       certain proceedings.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There is

         9       no home rule message at the desk.  The bill will

        10       be laid aside.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1521, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 5294, an act

        13       to authorize Judith E. Fillinger, employed by

        14       the county of Erie as a program analyst.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

        16       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

        17       read the last section.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        19       act shall take effect immediately.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        21       roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce











                                                             
10960

         1       the results when tabulated.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 47, nays

         3       one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         5       is passed.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       1522, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5378.

         8                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay aside.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        10       bill aside.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1523, by Senator Lack.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Bill is

        14       high.  Lay the bill aside.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        16       1524, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 5431, an

        17       act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

        18       clarifying and revising liability insurance

        19       requirements.

        20                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside,

        21       please.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        23       bill aside.











                                                             
10961

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       1525, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5433, an act

         3       to authorize the State University of New York.

         4                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay aside.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         6       bill aside.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         8       1526, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 5473, an

         9       act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in

        10       relation to authorizing a residential parking

        11       permit system in the city of Albany.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

        13       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

        14       read the last section.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        16       act shall take effect immediately.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        18       roll.

        19                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        22       is passed.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number











                                                             
10962

         1       1527, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5479.

         2                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         4       bill aside.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         6       1528, by Senator Tully, Senate Bill Number

         7       5480.

         8                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay aside.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        10       bill aside.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1529, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5491.

        13                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Lay aside.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        15       bill aside.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        17       1530, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate

        18       Print 5494.

        19                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        21       bill aside.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        23       DeFrancisco moves to discharge from the











                                                             
10963

         1       Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 2070C,

         2       and substitute it for the identical Calendar

         3       Number 1531.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         5       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

         6       the title.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         8       1531, by member of the Assembly Bragman,

         9       Assembly Print 2070C, an act authorizing the

        10       establishment of the Northern Onondaga Public

        11       Library District.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        13       is high.  Lay the bill aside.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        15       1532, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5499, an

        16       act to enact the Criminal Procedure Law Reform

        17       Act of 1995.

        18                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        20       bill aside.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Volker

        22       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        23       Assembly Bill Number 8222, and substitute it for











                                                             
10964

         1       the identical Calendar Number 1533.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         3       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

         4       the title.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         6       1533, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,

         7       Assembly Print Number 8222, an act to amend the

         8       Public Authorities Law and the Executive Law, in

         9       relation to the creation of the Livingston

        10       County Water and Sewer Authority.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        12       will read the last section.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        14       act shall take effect on the same date as a

        15       chapter of the laws of 1995.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        17       roll.

        18                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        21       is passed.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Holland

        23       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules











                                                             
10965

         1       Assembly Bill Number 8186, and substitute it for

         2       the identical Calendar Number 1534.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         4       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

         5       the title.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       1534, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,

         8       Assembly Print Number 8186, an act to amend a

         9       chapter of the laws of 1995 as proposed in

        10       Legislative Bill Number Assembly 6516.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        12       will read the last section.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        14       act shall take effect immediately.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        16       roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        20       is passed.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       1535, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5507, an

        23       act to authorize the Commissioner of











                                                             
10966

         1       Environmental Conservation to contract with

         2       Sagamore Institute.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         4       will read the last section.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

         6       act shall take effect immediately.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         8       roll.

         9                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        12       is passed.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       1536, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5517, an

        15       act to amend the Tax Law and Chapter 190 of the

        16       Laws of 1990, amending the Business Corporation

        17       Law.

        18                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Lay it aside.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        20       bill aside.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Spano

        22       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        23       Assembly Bill Number 7975A and substitute it for











                                                             
10967

         1       the identical Calendar Number 1537.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         3       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

         4       the title.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         6       1537, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,

         7       Assembly Print Number 7975A, an act in relation

         8       to establishing a Public Work Enforcement Fund.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        10       will read the last section.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        12       act shall take effect immediately.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        14       roll.

        15                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        18       is passed.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       1538, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5522, an

        21       act authorizing the Dormitory Authority of the

        22       state of New York to plan, design and acquire a

        23       facility.











                                                             
10968

         1                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay it aside.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         3       bill aside.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       1539, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5523, an

         6       act to amend Chapter 54 of the Laws of 1995,

         7       enacting the Capital Projects Budget.

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        10       bill aside.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1540, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5525, an

        13       act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991

        14       amending the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        16       will read the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        18       act -

        19                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Lay it aside.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        21       bill aside.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       1541, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 5541.











                                                             
10969

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Bill is

         2       high.  Lay the bill aside.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Abate

         4       moves to discharge the Committee on Rules from

         5       Assembly Bill Number 8102 and substitute it for

         6       the identical Calendar Number 1542.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         8       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

         9       the title.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       1542, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,

        12       Assembly Print Number 8102, an act to amend the

        13       Executive Law, in relation to authorizing Crime

        14       Victims Board.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        16       will read the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        18       act shall take effect immediately.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        20       roll.

        21                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill











                                                             
10970

         1       is passed.

         2                      Senator Skelos, that completes

         3       the non-controversial calendar.

         4                      The Secretary informs me that the

         5       home rule message has arrived on Calendar Number

         6       1520 which was laid aside for the reason there

         7       was no home rule message.

         8                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Would you please

         9       call up Calendar Number 1520.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        11       will read the title of Calendar Number 1520.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       1520, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5251A,

        14       an act to legalize, validate, ratify and confirm

        15       certain proceedings.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's a

        17       home rule message at the desk.  Secretary will

        18       read the last section.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        20       act shall take effect immediately.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        22       roll.

        23                      (The Secretary called the roll. )











                                                             
10971

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         3       is passed.

         4                      Senator Skelos.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         6       at this time on the first calendar, Calendar

         7       Number 61, by Senator Kuhl, if we could call

         8       that up, please, Senator Leichter is now here.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  We'll

        10       return to the first calendar of the day,

        11       Calendar Number 61 and we'll ask the Secretary

        12       to read the title of Calendar Number 61.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       61, substituted earlier today, by member of the

        15       Assembly Parment, Assembly Print Number 2230B,

        16       an act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law

        17       and the Environmental Conservation Law, in

        18       relation to the siting of solid waste manage

        19       ment facilities.

        20                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Can we have an

        21       explanation, please.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Senator Kuhl, an explanation has been asked for











                                                             
10972

         1       by Senator Stachowski.  Senator Kuhl.

         2                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yes, Mr.

         3       President.

         4                      This is a bill that has seen this

         5       house before, although in a slightly different

         6       form.  The concept is essentially the same.

         7                      One of the underlying fundament

         8       als that was adopted by this Legislature many

         9       years ago was the basic policy that was meant to

        10       try to encourage the development of agriculture

        11       in the state of New York.  As a result of that,

        12       we have done a number of things to try to

        13       encourage that industry, and this is another

        14       bill which is meant to do that same thing and

        15       that is to preserve viable currently being

        16       worked farm land in the state of New York.

        17                      This is a bill that would

        18       essentially prohibit the siting, I should say

        19       prohibit the involuntary siting of landfill -

        20       landfill/solid waste kinds of development in

        21       currently working farm land.

        22                      The bill has passed the

        23       Assembly.  It had -- it has this year -- it was











                                                             
10973

         1       substituted earlier today.  I fully expect that

         2       it will be signed by the Governor because all

         3       parties to the legislative process have been

         4       involved in the development of this particular

         5       bill.

         6                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Mr.

         7       President.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Senator Oppenheimer.

        10                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  If you

        11       would yield for a question, Senator Kuhl.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       Senator Kuhl, do you yield to a question from

        14       Senator Oppenheimer?

        15                      SENATOR KUHL:  I'd be happy to

        16       yield to Senator Oppenheimer.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Senator Oppenheimer, the Senator is happy to

        19       yield.

        20                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Can you

        21       tell us what the change is.  We're trying to

        22       figure it out here from everybody.  We would ask

        23       you to explain that to us, because we believe











                                                             
10974

         1       the environmental groups are now essentially

         2       supporting this, and we want to know what that

         3       change is.

         4                      SENATOR KUHL:  You're asking for

         5        -- excuse me, Senator Oppenheimer.  You're

         6       asking for some of the changes in the "B" print

         7       from the previous print.  All right.  There -

         8       if you want to pull up the bill and take a look

         9       at the bill -- do you have it in front of you?

        10                      If you'd look, oh, let me see, on

        11       the "B" print -- if you'd look at the "B" print,

        12       on line 5, after the word "district" there was

        13       previously language, about eight words, that

        14       read "*** and receiving an agricultural

        15       assessment pursuant to this article."  That line

        16       was eliminated.

        17                      You then go down to line 24 -

        18       excuse me, line 23, and you find the words

        19       "solid waste transfer station".  After that,

        20       the language "*** for land -- or land upon which

        21       sewage sludge is applied," was added, that

        22       phrase, "*** or land upon which sewage sludge is

        23       applied."  That was added.











                                                             
10975

         1                      Then the only other change was on

         2       the second page, that same phrase was added down

         3       on line, I believe it's 34 -- it's above that -

         4       28 -- on line 28.  That's -- you can see after

         5       the word "again," the words, "solid waste

         6       transfer station," the phrase "or land upon

         7       which sewage sludge is applied" was added.

         8                      That's basically, just

         9       essentially technical amendments, some language

        10       change meant to include one -- one little

        11       different area, and that is certainly land

        12       application area where there is sewage sludge

        13       being applied.  I believe that's the difference

        14       in the bill.

        15                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr.

        16       President.

        17                      Senator Oppenheimer, would you -

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Senator Leichter, why do you rise?

        20                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yes, if

        21       Senator Kuhl will yield, please.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Senator Kuhl, do you yield to Senator Leichter?











                                                             
10976

         1                      SENATOR KUHL:  Be happy to

         2       yield.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Senator Kuhl yields.

         5                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr.

         6       President.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  Can

         8       we have some order in the house, please?  Excuse

         9       me, Senator Leichter.  Thank you, Senator

        10       Leichter.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, I

        12       don't find your bill, because I have the "A"

        13       print but somebody handed me what purports to be

        14       a "B" print.  Seems like it has a provision in

        15       there, and on line 12, about the applicant for a

        16       permit has made a commitment in the permit

        17       application to fund a farm land protection

        18       conservation easement within a reasonable

        19       proximity to the proposed project in an amount

        20       not less than the dollar value of any such farm

        21       land purchased for the project.

        22                      Am I correct that that is also a

        23       change?











                                                             
10977

         1                      SENATOR KUHL:  There is no change

         2       between the "A" print and the "B" print in that

         3       language.  That language continues.  That's in

         4       the "B" print.

         5                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  That's -- and

         6       you say that was in the "A" print.

         7                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yes, that's in the

         8       "A" print too.

         9                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Senator, I

        10       have a question.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Well, can I

        12       just finish, please?

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        14       Senator Kuhl, do you yield to a further

        15       question?

        16                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yes.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Senator yields.

        19                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, I

        20       mean I have the "A" print.  I don't find that

        21       language in the "A" print.

        22                      SENATOR KUHL:  The "A" print, the

        23       "A" print.











                                                             
10978

         1                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Can you show

         2       me where in the "A" print that language is?

         3                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yeah, just to make

         4       sure we're talking about the same bill, Senator,

         5       the "A" print was printed on January 31st of

         6       this year, at the top.

         7                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  The "A" print

         8       says of January 17th.

         9                      SENATOR KUHL:  I'm reading -

        10       excuse me.  I'm reading off the Assembly "A"

        11       print.

        12                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Excuse me?

        13                      SENATOR KUHL:  I'm reading off

        14       the Assembly "A" print.

        15                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Oh, then that

        16       may be the problem.  I'm reading off the Senate

        17       "A" print.  Is the Senate -- is the Assembly

        18       "A" print the same as -- as the Senate "B"

        19       print?

        20                      SENATOR KUHL:  With the exception

        21       of the language that I referred to that was

        22       added and that one phrase that was strucken in

        23       response to Senator Oppenheimer's question.











                                                             
10979

         1                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  I see.  I

         2       see.  I don't seem to have that bill, but just

         3       working for a moment off your "B" print -

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Kuhl, do you yield to a further

         6       question?

         7                      SENATOR KUHL:  I'd be happy to

         8       yield.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  He

        10       yields to a further question, Senator.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Now, am I

        12       correct in understanding that even where the

        13       owner of the agricultural lands does not consent

        14       to that land being used for solid waste siting,

        15       that if an application for a permit is made

        16       which provides for an agricultural easement

        17       within a reasonable proximity, that the solid

        18       waste landfill siting can proceed?

        19                      SENATOR KUHL:  Senator, you're

        20       correct, that -- that is one of -- point that

        21       you raise is one of the differences between the

        22       bill that's before you this year and the bill

        23       that was before you in years past.











                                                             
10980

         1                      We've taken into consideration

         2       places where there are currently landfill

         3       operations being proposed and being worked

         4       upon.  This is not meant to prohibit the

         5       continuation and actually the implementation of

         6       those programs, and that's essentially what this

         7       does.

         8                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Good.

         9       Senator, if you'd be good enough to continue to

        10       yield.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Senator Kuhl, do you continue to yield for a

        13       question?

        14                      SENATOR KUHL:  I'd be happy to.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       Senator yields.

        17                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  How do you

        18       define "reasonable proximity"; who is going to

        19       make that determination?

        20                      SENATOR KUHL: Well, if we can't

        21       come to an agreement on what that is amongst the

        22       parties, obviously that would be defined by a

        23       court.  We're not intending that that be that











                                                             
10981

         1       way, but we're talking about situations that

         2       maybe are 500, 1,000 feet, so we're not talking

         3       several miles.

         4                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  So the intent

         5       that you give that expression is that

         6       "reasonable proximity" means really in very

         7       close proximity.

         8                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yes.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        10       Senator Kuhl, will you yield for another

        11       question?

        12                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yes.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  He

        14       yields, Senator.

        15                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Another change

        16       that I have, Senator, at least between the

        17       Senate "B" print and the Senate "A" print is

        18       that there can be a taking if such agricultural

        19       land that is taken constitutes less than five

        20       percent of the projected site; is that correct

        21       too?

        22                      SENATOR KUHL:  That's correct.

        23                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  And that











                                                             
10982

         1       determination has to be made both by the

         2       Commissioner of Environmental Conservation and

         3       the Commissioner of Agriculture, is that

         4       correct?

         5                      SENATOR KUHL:  That's correct.

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Just briefly

         7       on the bill.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Senator Leichter, on the bill.

        10                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  And maybe it

        11       could be in the nature of a question if Senator

        12       Kuhl wants to address it.

        13                      Senator, I certainly share your

        14       desire to keep as much agricultural land as we

        15       possibly can in agricultural production or we

        16       say for future agricultural production if it

        17       isn't used presently.

        18                      I am, however, concerned that, in

        19       some communities and localities, it's going to

        20       be very difficult to find sites for waste

        21       facilities for landfills and, as you know, those

        22       are necessary.

        23                      I mean there's a lot of valuable











                                                             
10983

         1       land in this state other than for agricultural

         2       purposes, land that's forests, lands that's near

         3       lakes, land that has scenic value.  On the other

         4       hand, we have to deal with the problem of

         5       disposing of solid waste in our society.

         6                      Are we really justified in just

         7       taking agricultural land and say that we're

         8       going to protect agricultural land or we're not

         9       going to concern ourselves with these other

        10       valuable lands?  That's really my problem with

        11       this bill.  I mean I wish we didn't have all our

        12       solid waste disposal, but we do and don't we

        13       have a responsibility to the people of this

        14       state to provide some means and some possible

        15       potential for disposing of solid wastes

        16       throughout the whole state, even if in some

        17       instances it means taking agricultural land?

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Senator Kuhl, did you wish to address that?

        20                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yes.  I think the

        21       question is close, and I think Senator Leichter

        22       deserves an honest and frank answer, and I'd

        23       like to provide that because I think that I can











                                                             
10984

         1       belie some of his fears.

         2                      Senator, if you were to look at

         3       the statistical information that is coming to us

         4       relative to agriculture in the state of New

         5       York, I think you would become very, very

         6       concerned about the long-term viability of

         7       agriculture in this state.  We have, as you

         8       know, 18 million people.  They're certainly

         9       dependent upon produce.  If we don't do

        10       something to try to maintain our base here,

        11       we'll be totally at the whim of maybe foreign

        12       countries, other states, and we won't be able to

        13       produce for our own people.  That's a great

        14       concern and, number one, also, it's a great

        15       concern that we don't have jobs for many of our

        16       people who would like to be in them.

        17                      The statistics will show you that

        18       the number of farms in this state has seriously

        19       decreased, and that the -- in the last ten years

        20       over a million acres have gone out of produc

        21       tion.  Now, this bill specifically deals only

        22       with land that is currently under production.

        23       That means there has to be some sort of a crop











                                                             
10985

         1       or something being planted and harvested.

         2                      There's a further condition that

         3       you wouldn't know anything about necessarily

         4       unless you were fully familiar with the new

         5       assessment process that was created in the Ag

         6       Districts Law that was passed by this

         7       Legislature back in 1971, and that is for a

         8       person to receive that assessment they have to

         9       have been in existence and under production for

        10       at least two years prior to that, and there has

        11       to be, I believe it's an eight-year commitment

        12       to continue in agriculture, so what we're

        13       talking about here is that unique situation

        14       where we have a municipal government who decides

        15       for their own purposes just to come in and take

        16       a farm from a farmer who wants to continue in

        17       the farming business and we're simply saying

        18       that, unless there's already a permit

        19       application and the other kinds of situations,

        20       the exemptions that are created, that you no

        21       longer can do that because one of the things

        22       that we're finding is that there is a, what we

        23       call a critical mass to the via... economic











                                                             
10986

         1       viability of agriculture.

         2                      If you continue to pull out

         3       little pieces of farms around the state, then

         4       you end up with less property being actually

         5       worked than will -- will continue the need for

         6       secondary services that are provided to the

         7       agricultural community, and all of a sudden you

         8       start to see that little agribusiness that does

         9       things like sell equipment, farm equipment, that

        10       disappears and it goes some place else, and this

        11       all kind of adds to a trend to essentially

        12       unweave the fabric of the agricultural community

        13       and dry it up, and that's what this bill is

        14       meant to do and, for those existing plots out

        15       there who are no longer in production, this bill

        16       doesn't apply, so there are millions, literally

        17       millions of acres of land that are available to

        18       site solid waste landfill facilities that would

        19       have absolutely nothing to do with agriculture,

        20       but would -- and wouldn't threaten agriculture,

        21       O.K., so what we're saying is there are many,

        22       many other sites, many, many other acres or

        23       possibilities, but just don't come in and











                                                             
10987

         1       destroy and take without the voluntary consent

         2       of the landowner, a piece of property that might

         3       totally undermine the agriculture in that area.

         4                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President,

         5       if Senator Kuhl will yield to one more

         6       question.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         8       Senator Kuhl, will you yield to Senator

         9       Leichter?

        10                      SENATOR KUHL:  Be happy to.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Senator Kuhl yields.

        13                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator Kuhl,

        14       I think you make very good sense, and I think I

        15       understand the bill better now, and I think your

        16       amendments make it less of a problem.

        17                      I just have one question.  If

        18       land -- agricultural land that's in an agricul

        19       tural district is used solely for haying,

        20       somebody goes in and mows it, is that considered

        21       agricultural production?

        22                      SENATOR KUHL:  If they're just

        23       mowing it?











                                                             
10988

         1                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yes, all they

         2       do.

         3                      SENATOR KUHL:  You mean for

         4       aesthetic purposes?

         5                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Excuse me?

         6                      SENATOR KUHL:  For aesthetic

         7       purposes?

         8                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  No, they go

         9       and they cut the hay and sell it for whatever

        10       the hay may be worth.

        11                      SENATOR KUHL:  Then that would be

        12       agricultural production, but there's another -

        13       there are two -- two criteria to getting an ag'

        14       district exemption.  You also have to have a

        15       gross dollar amount of production and so, if you

        16       were just saying, going in and mowing it and

        17       baling it and selling it and it was less than

        18       say $10,000, they wouldn't qualify for the

        19       exemption, and then the land wouldn't be exempt

        20       under this bill, so this is not meant to allow

        21       the so-called hobby farms that don't have an

        22       agricultural component, I mean on a real

        23       existence as far as the agricultural community,











                                                             
10989

         1       as far as being able to utilize this piece.  It

         2       has to be a viable commercial agricultural

         3       business really to qualify for the ag' district

         4       exemption.

         5                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Thank you, Mr.

         6       President.

         7                      I'm certainly satisfied.  I think

         8       I understand the bill much better, and I thank

         9       Senator Kuhl for his explanation.  Certainly we

        10       understand that the reason that farming has

        11       declined in this state is because of worldwide

        12       forces and agricultural production that has

        13       increased in so many parts of the world, but I

        14       think it makes sense to say that, if we had a

        15       farm that is indeed in agricultural production,

        16       as Senator Kuhl explains it, is defined

        17       according to law that that particular farm

        18       should not be taken out of production,

        19       particularly when you point out that there's a

        20       lot of former agricultural land that should be

        21       available.

        22                      I'm going to support the bill.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:











                                                             
10990

         1       Thank you.

         2                      Senator Oppenheimer.

         3                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  This is an

         4       observation, maybe a question to Senator Kuhl.

         5       As I understand it, one of the changes is that

         6       the -- the site for the -- the solid waste

         7       facility would be 95 percent in non-agricultural

         8       land and only five percent would be the taking

         9       of the agricultural land that's under

        10       production.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Senator Kuhl, I believe that was a question.

        13       Will you yield to it?

        14                      SENATOR KUHL:  I'd be happy to

        15       yield.  I think you're -- do you want to state

        16       that again, Senator Oppenheimer.  I don't know

        17       as I heard it.

        18                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Right here

        19       it says -

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       Senator Oppenheimer, please.  Thank you.

        22       Senator?

        23                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  -- the











                                                             
10991

         1       Commissioner will determine that the agricul

         2       tural land to be taken constitutes less than

         3       five percent of the project site, so the major

         4       ity of this site would be in non-agricultural

         5       land and only five percent would be taken that

         6       would be farm land that was in production.

         7                      SENATOR KUHL:  This, again, was

         8       another one of those exceptions where we saw

         9       that there might be, in the original bill, just

        10       a true definition might not really take into

        11       consideration some of the practical applications

        12       so if you might have, for instance, a site that

        13       would be -- let's say you're going to be a

        14       hundred acres and say three acres of that might

        15       just come into an ag' district area, O.K., that

        16       would be an occasion which would be -- that

        17       three acres would not be exempt under this bill,

        18       that they would be able to take that because

        19       it's such a small piece of the overall project

        20       that we didn't want to undermine or jeopardize

        21       the whole siting project because of those three

        22       acres.

        23                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Excellent.











                                                             
10992

         1       Thank you very much.  On the bill.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         3       Senator Oppenheimer, on the bill.

         4                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  I also will

         5       be supporting this bill this year.  It is a fine

         6       line that we have to draw in this state.  We

         7       understand that agriculture is the primary

         8       business of this state.  It's the number one

         9       item in our gross product, and we have to face

        10       the fact that small farms are having difficulty

        11       in a world of agroeconomics where the huge farms

        12       seem to be taking over.

        13                      And so, in trying to find a

        14       compromise I think this bill has done it, and I

        15       will be supporting it.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Secretary will read the last section.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        19       act shall take effect January 1st.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       Call the roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.











                                                             
10993

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

         2       bill is passed.

         3                      Senator Wright.

         4                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Mr. President,

         5       can we now move to the Senate Supplemental

         6       Calendar Number 1 and take up the controversial

         7       calendar.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  Can

         9       we have -- Secretary will read.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       416, substituted earlier today by member of the

        12       Assembly Feldman, Assembly Print Number 161A, an

        13       act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation

        14       to creating a Health Care Information Privacy

        15       Advisory Board.

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Senator Farley.

        19                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Thank you, Mr.

        20       President.

        21                      This bill creates a temporary

        22       expert advisory board within the Health

        23       Department to advise and report to the











                                                             
10994

         1       Legislature and the Governor and the Health

         2       Department and the Insurance Department on

         3       issues involving health care data privacy.

         4                      The legislative finding states

         5       it's computerization and changes in technology

         6       made through health care delivery, but it may

         7       also present new challenges to the protection of

         8       personal privacy.  This board will be comprised

         9       of ten legislative and five gubernatorial

        10       appointments with expertise in different medical

        11       topics such as practice genetics, et cetera.

        12                      The bill passed the Assembly

        13       unanimously back in 1994.  In '95 it was 143 to

        14       one over there.  It was recalled and amended.

        15       It would -- basically, this bill is supported by

        16       the state Consumer Protection Board.

        17                      Is there any particulars that

        18       you'd like to know about?

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       Senator Stachowski.

        21                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  If Senator

        22       Farley will yield to one question, please.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:











                                                             
10995

         1       Senator Farley, will you yield?

         2                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I will be

         3       delighted to yield.

         4                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Can you tell

         5       me the breakdown of those appointments?

         6                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Yes, I think I

         7       can.  I gather you mean whom they're appointed

         8       by.  I understand what you're talking about.  I

         9       got to look at this.  Ten from the Legislature.

        10       I don't have that -- I can't find that

        11       information at the moment, Senator.  I'll be

        12       happy to get back to you on it.

        13                      Page 2, that's where I'm

        14       looking.  Thank you.  My good friend, here it

        15       is.  Thank you, Senator Present.  Shall consist

        16       of 15 members; three shall be appointed by the

        17       Temporary President of the Senate, two by the

        18       Minority Leader of the Senate, three by the

        19       Speaker, two by the Minority Leader of the

        20       house.

        21                      I knew that's what you were

        22       driving at.  That's always been my feeling that

        23       they should do it that way, and five shall be











                                                             
10996

         1       pointed by the Governor.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         3       Read the last section.

         4                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Also for the

         5       legislative intent, I want to note, want the

         6       record to show, because it was asked me by

         7       learned counsel on your side, that the intent of

         8       this bill is that the Health Department only

         9       make recommendations, and so the legislative

        10       intent shall show that.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Read the last section, please.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        14       act shall take effect immediately.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       Call the roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       This bill is passed.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       942, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5025, an

        23       act to amend the Tax Law and the Administrative











                                                             
10997

         1       Code of the city of New York, in relation to

         2       increasing the effectiveness and efficiency of

         3       tax collection.

         4                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       Senator Goodman, an explanation has been

         7       requested.

         8                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr. President,

         9       this bill's purpose is to increase the

        10       effectiveness and efficiency of tax collection

        11       and administration of the Tax Department, whose

        12       bill it is, by improving certain administrative

        13       and supplemental collection divisions, to

        14       discontinue the use of automotive fuel carrier

        15       permits under Article 21 of the Tax Law, that's

        16       the highway use tax, and to conform the state

        17       and local personal income taxes to the federal

        18       income tax division which allows a credit upon

        19       repayment of same rate of income.

        20                      This is a very complex bill and

        21       like Moby Dick, I could render an explanation on

        22       three levels.  I've just given you level one

        23       which is the quickie.  I could give you level











                                                             
10998

         1       two, which is the half hour version and level 3

         2       which is the three-hour version, and I'm at your

         3       disposal for whichever level you choose.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Leichter, you rise at your own risk.

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yeah, if

         7       Senator Goodman will yield.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Senator Goodman, do you yield to a question?

        10                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  I didn't want

        11       to go into the post-graduate course on this

        12       bill, Senator.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        14       Senator yields.

        15                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  But let me

        16       just ask you one question.  Could you tell us

        17       what the fiscal implications are, if any, with

        18       this bill?  Are we going to have any loss of

        19       revenue as a consequence of this bill?

        20                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Senator, the

        21       bill allows the Tax Department to focus on more

        22       significant cases by allowing the Department to

        23       abate small amounts of tax, and the cost of











                                                             
10999

         1       collection efforts would exceed the tax

         2       collected.

         3                      There is no way in which, in an

         4       ticipation of these actions, I could give you a

         5       fiscal implication, but I think that the net of

         6       this is clearly that the state stands to benefit

         7       by virtue of improved tax administration.

         8                      Now, I might just add a couple of

         9       other thoughts to this so that you'll have a

        10       similar clear idea of the bill's overall scope.

        11       It unifies the erroneous refund provisions

        12       across all the taxes and provides a rational

        13       structure for the imposition of interest.

        14                      It adopts the federal standard in

        15       the area so that state and federal taxes are not

        16       dealt with in a conflicting manner.  Currently,

        17       when the state issues an erroneous refund, it

        18       may charge interest from the date issued.  This

        19       would allow interest only from the date that

        20       they ask for the return of the erroneously

        21       refunded money.

        22                      Tax Department personnel would be

        23       allowed to vacate warrants which is to the











                                                             
11000

         1       taxpayer's benefit, by filing in the county

         2       clerk's office rather than overburdening the

         3       Attorney General's office, that when a taxpayer

         4       check bounces, the Department may already have

         5       issued a satisfaction piece.

         6                      This would allow them to work 40

         7       rather than 20 days to issue the satisfaction

         8       piece to assure that the check clears.  If the

         9       taxpayer needs the satisfaction piece sooner

        10       than 40 days, they may still obtain it by paying

        11       certified funds.

        12                      Divisions requiring fuel carriers

        13       to have special permits, or in the fields, are

        14       no longer necessary as an enforcement device and

        15       are redundant with other permits.  This would

        16       also permit a claim of rights credit under the

        17       state's personal income tax in those instances

        18       where the taxpayer elected the term of right

        19       credit under the federal income tax.

        20                      This would conform state law to

        21       the federal so the taxpayer does not have to

        22       file in two different manners for the same taxed

        23       income, so I would summarize this by saying that











                                                             
11001

         1       on the one hand this seeks to be more user

         2       friendly to the taxpayer while at the same time

         3       providing a pragmatic approach to the collection

         4       of taxes, so that the efforts of the Department

         5       would be against the big liabilities rather than

         6       the inconsequential ones in which cost of

         7       collection can exceed the amount that's actually

         8       collected.

         9                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr.

        10       President.

        11                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  There is a

        12       slight revenue enhancement, I'm informed by

        13       counsel, to the state, as the Tax Department

        14       staff work on collecting the large bills rather

        15       than the very small amounts which I think is

        16       what I've already said, but statement is

        17       reiterated.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Senator Goodman, will you yield to another

        20       question by Senator Leichter?

        21                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Yes, I will

        22       certainly.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:











                                                             
11002

         1       Senator yields.

         2                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator

         3       Goodman, you sort of made an analogy.  You want

         4       to be Moby Dick, I don't want to be Captain

         5       Ahab.

         6                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Well, Ahab -

         7                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  I know what

         8       happened to Captain Ahab at the end.

         9                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  And Moby Dick

        10       is a whale, so the seafaring reference is quite

        11       clear.

        12                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, I

        13       know there's a provision in here that affects

        14       the registration of the New York City income

        15       tax.  In regard to the -- to the city income

        16       tax, the administration, has that provision been

        17       cleared with the city of New York?

        18                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Yes, it has.

        19                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Thank you.

        20                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Thank you,

        21       Senator.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Secretary will read the last section.











                                                             
11003

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 22.  This

         2       act shall take effect immediately.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Call the roll.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

         8       bill is passed.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       1428, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 5403, an

        11       act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

        12       establishing a crime of aggravated harassment.

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Senator Nozzolio, Senator Paterson has asked for

        16       an explanation.

        17                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  Thank you, Mr.

        18       President.

        19                      Senator Paterson, this is a

        20       measure that is identical to a measure that we

        21       passed a few weeks ago that was enacted by this

        22       body 52 to 1.  It's a measure that basically

        23       says those who are in prison and use their











                                                             
11004

         1       bodily fluids as a weapon and attack, assault

         2       correction officers and other correctional

         3       personnel would be guilty of a Class C felony.

         4                      One of the provisions that was

         5       omitted from the original measure which was

         6       passed by this house was a provision to require

         7       a mandatory AIDS test for those who were

         8       participating in this biopractice.  That AIDS

         9       test is no longer required by this bill, and we

        10       are in negotiations with the Assembly.  We are

        11       close to reaching agreement and one of the

        12       requirements of the Assembly was to eliminate

        13       the mandatory AIDS test.

        14                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator, I had

        15       a question about HIV testing.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Senator Nozzolio, do you -- do you yield to a

        18       question?

        19                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  I'd be honored

        20       to yield to the distinguished Minority Leader.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        22       Senator yields, Senator.

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  I'm very











                                                             
11005

         1       pleased, but Senator, I will have to tell you

         2       that somehow psychicly you addressed my question

         3       in your explanation, and your explanation is

         4       quite satisfactory.

         5                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  Thank you.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         7       Secretary will read the last section.  Quickly

         8       before they have a question.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        10       act shall take effect on the first day of

        11       November.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       Call the roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        17       bill is passed.

        18                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:

        19       Explanation.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  We

        21       haven't read anything yet.  What would you like

        22       an explanation of?

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,











                                                             
11006

         1       we just want to know why we're here.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  We

         3       have to call the bill first, Senator, if you

         4       just wait for one second.

         5                      Secretary will read.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar 1433, by

         7       Senator Rath, Senate Print 5447, an act to amend

         8       the Executive Law, in relation to changing the

         9       name of the Office for Regulatory and Manage

        10       ment Assistance.

        11                      SENATOR RATH:  Yes, the

        12       explanation that's been asked for, probably

        13       seems like a very familiar bill and although

        14       this is a bill sponsored by the Governor, it's

        15       identical to one that this body passed on July

        16        -- pardon me, on June the 12th.  That was an

        17       extender for what we will hopefully be calling

        18       the Governor's Office of Regulatory Reform and

        19       it was for six years.

        20                      This bill in front of us changes

        21       the name as that bill did from ORMA to the -- to

        22       GORR, G-O-R-R, and extends it for two years

        23       rather than six years.











                                                             
11007

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Read the last section.

         3                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Paterson.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

         7       maybe I missed something.  If the Senator would

         8       yield for a question?

         9                      SENATOR RATH:  Surely.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Senator Rath, do you yield?

        12                      SENATOR RATH:  Yeah.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        14       Senator yields.

        15                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator, in

        16       light of that, why are we changing the name?

        17                      SENATOR RATH:  Yeah, in order to

        18       reflect more clearly the role that regulation

        19       reform is playing in the state right now.  The

        20       Governor has taken a very, very big interest in

        21       it, and he has an office now that has that full

        22       responsibility, and although many of the duties

        23       will remain the same, identical, the extender











                                                             
11008

         1       does not change the duties of the office or the

         2       responsibilities, and I think it's important

         3       that we also recognize that by having this in

         4       statute, that the Legislature then has an

         5       opportunity to revisit the -- the office and its

         6       responsibilities periodically through the

         7       extension of the legislation, and that there's a

         8       great deal of discussion continuing regarding

         9       regulatory reform and, of course, the home of

        10       that is in formerly ORMA, hopefully soon to be

        11       called GORR.

        12                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Mr. President,

        13       will Senator Rath yield?

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Senator Solomon.  Senator Rath?  Senator

        16       Solomon, she yields.

        17                      SENATOR RATH:  Surely.

        18                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Senator, the

        19       previous remarks, you had stated that we passed

        20       the piece of legislation on June 12th which was

        21       your bill which did exactly the same thing here

        22       except we did it for six years, and now this

        23       bill is going to do it for two years.











                                                             
11009

         1                      Can you tell me what has

         2       transpired in the last 15 days where we had to

         3       go from six years to two years?

         4                      SENATOR RATH:  It's the

         5       Governor's request that we do this for two years

         6       rather than six years.  I think that was a

         7       hopeful thing on June 12th that six years might

         8       be an opportunity, but now the Governor says two

         9       years is just fine with him.

        10                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  (Gestures)

        11       Thank you.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       Read the last section, please.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        15       act shall take effect immediately.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Call the roll.

        18                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        21       bill is passed.

        22                      Senator Wright.

        23                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Mr. President,











                                                             
11010

         1       could we move to Calendar Number 1497, Senator

         2       Larkin.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       The Secretary will read Calendar Number

         5       1497.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         7       Larkin moves to discharge from the Committee on

         8       Rules Assembly Bill Number 5384B, and substitute

         9       it for the identical Calendar Number 1497.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Substitution ordered.  Secretary will read.

        12                      SENATOR LARKIN:  What this bill

        13       does is -

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Senator Larkin, got to read it first.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        17       1497, by member of the Assembly McLaughlin,

        18       Assembly Print Number 5384B, an act to amend the

        19       General Obligations Laws, in relation to

        20       authorizing a charge of $20.

        21                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Senator

        22       Paterson, this bill provides any person to whom

        23       you make a check, other than a cashier's check,











                                                             
11011

         1       money order or certified check is tendered,

         2       which check is subsequently dishonored, may

         3       collect a $20 fee from the party which issued

         4       the check.

         5                      Right now we do it for consumer

         6       accounts or your private accounts.  All this

         7       does is bring private accounts in line with what

         8       is in existing law today.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        10       Read the last section.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        12       act shall take effect on the 90th day.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        14       Call the roll.

        15                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        18       bill is passed.

        19                      If we could just hold for one

        20       second, please.

        21                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President,

        22       are we -- are we in between bills?

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:











                                                             
11012

         1       Yes, we are, Senator.

         2                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  O.K. Mr.

         3       President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Leichter.

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Calendar 1409

         7       which passed on a slow roll call on June 15th, I

         8       was out of the chamber at that time.  If I had

         9       been in the chamber, would the record please

        10       show I would have voted in the negative on

        11       that.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        13       record will show that, had you been in the

        14       chamber, Senator, you would have been in the

        15       negative on that bill.

        16                      Secretary will read.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       1500, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print Number

        19       3342A, an act to amend the Public Health Law and

        20       Family Court Act, in relation to abortions

        21       performed on unemancipated minors.

        22                      SENATOR ONORATO:  Explanation.

        23











                                                             
11013

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Senator Padavan, an explanation has been asked

         3       for by several Senators.

         4                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Thank you,

         5       Senator.

         6                      The bill before us would require

         7       parental notification in the case of any

         8       abortion performed on a child under the age of

         9       16.  Notification would be to parents or

        10       individual parent as the bill prescribes.

        11                      The proposed law has a judicial

        12       bypass under the jurisdiction of the Family

        13       Court.  The bill precludes its application for

        14       any emancipated minor.  It provides a method for

        15       parental responsibility, parental authority,

        16       parental concern to be exercised when and where

        17       appropriate.

        18                      In this state, we have a body of

        19       law that relates to medical procedures performed

        20       on minors.  The law requires parental consent in

        21       any type of surgery, tooth extraction, broken

        22       limb, and we also know that in even unrelated

        23       areas, unrelated to health care, parental











                                                             
11014

         1       consent is often required.  A school trip

         2       planned by an educational institution would

         3       require, as most of us know as parents, a slip

         4       to be signed giving permission.

         5                      It's an anomaly that, in an area

         6       that is certainly a serious medically

         7       significant intrusive surgery, that in this one

         8       area not only is not consent required but not

         9       even notification, and in the latter category

        10       the bill before us would seek to ensure

        11       notification.

        12                      We outline in the preamble of the

        13       bill the reason why this is so important.

        14       Certainly a young girl under the age of 16 at

        15       this point in her life is undergoing emotional

        16       trauma.  I think that goes without saying.  A

        17       youngster of that age may not be familiar with

        18       her own medical history so important to her

        19       well-being when such a procedure is to be

        20       undertaken.

        21                      The need for counseling, the need

        22       for psychology or psychologists to be involved

        23       certainly is something that we could acknowledge











                                                             
11015

         1       as a potential fact in many cases.  But if the

         2       parents don't know about it, don't know about

         3       the pending abortion, don't know about after the

         4       abortion, certainly, all of these things that we

         5       as parents would be concerned about and want to

         6       see happen can, in some instances, be

         7       precluded.  We think that's wrong.  It's wrong

         8       in a very substantive way, and we think

         9       primarily of the well-being of the young girl

        10       involved.

        11                      In terms of society, I think we

        12       have an overriding responsibility to ensure that

        13       parental responsibilities, parental obligations,

        14       parental authority are given maximum opportunity

        15       to be exercised, and I can think of no more

        16       traumatic situation than a 13- or 14- or

        17       15-year-old girl about to have an abortion and

        18       parents not being able to provide the kinds of

        19       support, the inputs needed and the oversight, I

        20       think, so critical to ensuring that should an

        21       abortion take place that it would be done

        22       properly and with minimum negative impact.

        23                      So often we have read and learn











                                                             
11016

         1       from reports provided that teen-age abortions

         2       are not a one-time event, regrettably, and it

         3       would seem, I think, logical to me and I'm sure

         4       to you that these children need help and the

         5       best people to ensure that it be provided are

         6       the parents or parent as the case may be, or

         7       guardian, all of whom are prescribed for in the

         8       bill.

         9                      Now, let me share with you just

        10       one story, and then I will be happy to answer

        11       any questions.  Several years ago in my

        12       district, in a community called Queens Village,

        13       a 13-year-old girl, Dawn Ravenell, was taken by

        14       an individual to an abortion clinic.  During the

        15       course of the abortion, serious complications

        16       developed and the young girl was rushed to a

        17       hospital.  That night the parents received a

        18       phone call from that hospital and they were told

        19       that "Your daughter is here and she is in a

        20       coma."

        21                      They rushed to the hospital and

        22       that night Dawn Ravenell died.  The parents were

        23       here in Albany a couple years ago to discuss











                                                             
11017

         1       this legislation, and a reporter asked them a

         2       very pointed question:  "If you had known about

         3       your daughter's situation, would you have

         4       precluded an abortion?"  Mrs. Ravenell answered

         5       the question, I thought, in a way that I would

         6       like to share with you.  She said, "We would

         7       have discussed it as a family, and we are a very

         8       tight knit family, not a dysfunctional family,

         9       and if we had decided in the best interests of

        10       Dawn that an abortion was required or desirable,

        11       we would have gone forward with it, but it would

        12       have been in a hospital and our family physician

        13       would have been involved and Dawn's medical

        14       history would have been known, and she would be

        15       alive today."

        16                      That, in a very real life story,

        17       highlights why this bill is important.  I don't

        18       want to see any other Dawn Ravenells die in this

        19       state.  At the same time, I recognize that there

        20       are situations that are different than that

        21       family where there are dysfunctional families

        22       where one or more parents cannot be involved and

        23       the bill very carefully provides a bypass











                                                             
11018

         1       provision so that, in the event such a situation

         2       does exist, the Family Court would have the full

         3       authority to assume responsibility or to correct

         4       whatever is appropriate in the court's view.

         5                      That, briefly, is the explanation

         6       of the bill.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

         8       Chair would just like to recognize Senator

         9       Bruno.  We would just say there's a list of

        10       speakers up here.  If you want to speak we will

        11       put you on the list.  It goes Senator Bruno,

        12       Senators Paterson, Dollinger, Abate, Cook,

        13       Oppenheimer, Marchi, Goodman, Spano and Maltese.

        14                      Senator Bruno.

        15                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President, I

        16       stand and speak in favor of passage of this

        17       parental notification bill, and I speak in favor

        18       of passage because I think it's critically

        19       important.

        20                      Senator Padavan said it as well

        21       as anyone could say it describing very

        22       specifically the critical need for parental

        23       notification any time a young person under 16 is











                                                             
11019

         1       going to have something happen to that person

         2       that could be life-threatening, especially if it

         3       can be life-threatening.

         4                      The unfortunate part of this

         5       issue is it gets very emotional, and there are

         6       the pro-choice people and the pro-life people,

         7       and it becomes a pro-life or a pro-choice

         8       issue.  It is not, Mr. President, in my mind, a

         9       pro-choice or a pro-life issue, and I think it's

        10       unfortunate for the public in New York State,

        11       who overwhelmingly support parental

        12       notification, that this becomes an issue of

        13       pro-life or pro-choice.

        14                      This is an issue of parenting.

        15       This is an issue of families, of relationships

        16       between parents and their children.  That's what

        17       this issue is all about; and I, in my mind and

        18       in my heart, find it hard to understand how

        19       people can't recognize how critically important

        20       it is that, if their child breaks their arm,

        21       that they consent to having that arm set and

        22       taken care of, and those same people who would

        23       not have a doctor in a hospital touch their











                                                             
11020

         1       child would still feel that it's okay for that

         2       child to be invaded, intruded upon in the most

         3       private of ways without their knowledge or their

         4       consent.

         5                      This bill has been modified from

         6       age 18 to 16, from consent to notification.  I

         7       agree with the 82 percent of the people in New

         8       York State that this bill should become law, and

         9       I urge my colleagues to vote in favor.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Senator Paterson.

        12                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        13       President.

        14                      This is another very sensitive

        15       issue, an issue that challenges our ability to

        16       reason and understand and it certainly is one

        17       that conflicts with our sense of values and our

        18       purpose as legislators, and I can certainly

        19       understand the prolonged discussion of this

        20       bill.  The last time it reached the floor of the

        21       Senate was in 1977; and as long as anyone wants

        22       to bring it up, I am willing to debate it.

        23                      But I think perhaps we can











                                                             
11021

         1       enlighten everyone to some basic issues that

         2       arise when we discuss this bill.  One is that we

         3       already have written into our law the

         4       opportunity for medical care to be provided for

         5       younger people even though there is no parental

         6       consent.  It exists in the Public Health Law

         7       under Section 2504, Subdivision 4, and it exists

         8       in the Mental Hygiene Law, under Section 1211.

         9                      We also have a law that allows

        10       for a woman to have an abortion.  That is the

        11       law of the land.  If anyone doesn't like the law

        12       of the land, they can seek to change it, and we

        13       saw that happen earlier this year with the death

        14       penalty, and I don't like the resolution of the

        15       debate on the death penalty in the Legislature

        16       this year, but I have to, as we all do in a

        17       civilized society, live within the law of the

        18       land.  Unfortunately -

        19                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President,

        20       can I ask Senator Paterson if he would suffer an

        21       interruption?  And I apologize for this.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Senator Paterson, would you yield to Senator











                                                             
11022

         1       Bruno?

         2                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Certainly, Mr.

         3       President.

         4                      SENATOR BRUNO:  I have Senator

         5       LaValle that is, literally, catching a plane and

         6       he will be returning, but I would ask, with your

         7       indulgence, that he be allowed to vote on this

         8       issue before he leaves.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        10       Secretary will read the last section.

        11                      SENATOR BRUNO:  If he doesn't

        12       leave shortly, it will be academic.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        14       Read the last section.

        15                      SENATOR BRUNO:  May we interrupt

        16       you, Senator?

        17                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Oh,

        18       absolutely.

        19                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Thank you,

        20       Senator.

        21                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Sure.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 6.  This

        23       act shall take effect on the 90th day.











                                                             
11023

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Call the roll.

         3                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator LaValle.

         6                      SENATOR LAVALLE:  Aye.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         8       Withdraw the roll call.

         9                      Senator Paterson.

        10                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Well, Mr.

        11       President, I guess I won't be able to convince

        12       Senator LaValle.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        14       There's 60 others, sir.

        15                      SENATOR PATERSON:  But, Mr.

        16       President, any attempt to undermine or confuse

        17       or in any way diminish the value of the law as

        18       it exists right now, in my opinion, is actually

        19       to, in a sense, repeal the law without ever

        20       really legislating it.

        21                      The only groups that I can find

        22       that are in support of this legislation are the

        23       Catholic Conference and other pro-life groups.











                                                             
11024

         1                      The fact is that the result of

         2       this law is going to have a chilling effect on

         3       younger people who are seeking abortions.  Let

         4       me cite a couple of statistics to you.  74

         5       percent of children aged 14 -- make it 90

         6       percent -- do consult with a parent prior to

         7       having an abortion.  For 15-year-olds the

         8       statistic is increased; and by 16, it's 59

         9       percent.

        10                      So the younger the age of the

        11       individual who is seeking the abortion, the

        12       actual -- more likely it is for them to seek

        13       consultation with a parent.  Interestingly

        14       enough, most are consulting the mother, so they

        15       are consulting one of the two parents.

        16                      In those cases where we do have

        17       an abortion being sought, 59 percent of

        18       15-year-olds who seek them are doing it as a

        19       result of rape or incest, and for 14-year-olds,

        20       the number increases again to 74 percent.  So

        21       the younger the age of the girl that is seeking

        22       the abortion, the higher the percentage is that

        23       this is resultant of a case of rape or incest.











                                                             
11025

         1                      As lachrymose as it would be for

         2       our society to accept, it actually exists that

         3       in many cases the parent or some guardian has

         4       actually violated the individual that is seeking

         5       the abortion, and what we have done is we have

         6       created a situation where both parents have to

         7       receive notification in order for the procedure

         8       to take place.

         9                      What we are somewhat ignoring

        10       when we start talking about health care and risk

        11       to life is that the pregnancy is a greater risk

        12       to life than the abortion itself.  This is not a

        13       value.  This is a medical fact.

        14                      And so when we look at the

        15       situation in toto, what we are doing is taking a

        16       situation that most young people resolve.  In

        17       other words, most girls under 16 do seek the

        18       advice of their parents prior to taking this

        19       procedure.  It is in the very few cases where

        20       the individual doesn't feel that they can

        21       consult that they are going forward and having

        22       these procedures.

        23                      You can not legislate morality.











                                                             
11026

         1       You can not legislate family values.  When

         2       15-year-olds were questioned, 35 percent of them

         3       said that their parents never talked to them

         4       about sex or any of the possibilities that this

         5       is existing; and when we start talking about

         6       notifying the parents such as in a medical

         7       procedure, such as a tooth extraction or repair

         8       to a damaged limb, what we are understanding is

         9       that this is the repair that exists only for

        10       that period of time.  If you get parental

        11       consent to go on a school trip, it only lasts

        12       for that day, but carrying a pregnancy to term

        13       is an existence that will be in the life of the

        14       individual forever.  It will not necessarily be

        15       in the life of the parent who may make that

        16       decision forever.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Senator Paterson, will you hold for a second?

        19                      Ladies and gentlemen, please.  We

        20       need a little order in the house.

        21                      Thank you.

        22                      Excuse me, Senator.

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.











                                                             
11027

         1       President.

         2                      When we look at the issue of

         3       notification as it exists in this bill,

         4       notification -- based on the statistics that we

         5       are citing, notification equalizes consent.

         6       Notification becomes, in a sense, the catalyst

         7       for consent and, although this legislation

         8       covers the possibility of the child wanting to

         9       go to term with the pregnancy, it does not allow

        10       for any coverage for the individual who seeks to

        11       have an abortion.

        12                      In other words, a young woman who

        13       brings a pregnancy to term can be emancipated

        14       and go on public assistance under this bill.  If

        15       the young woman does not want to do that, if the

        16       young woman seeks to have the abortion and

        17       there's intimidation or some kind of coercion

        18       from the parent, there's absolutely no

        19       protection, and so the result of this bill is

        20       going to have a chilling effect on the

        21       opportunity for a legal procedure for a young

        22       person based on really what is an obfuscating

        23       message that is being sent through the passage











                                                             
11028

         1       of legislation which is actually going to deny

         2       that.

         3                      And, of course, the Becky Bell

         4       case in Indiana, which was the case where the

         5       child only got the consent of one parent and

         6       then because they couldn't get the consent of -

         7       they couldn't reach the consent of the other,

         8       went ahead and had an illegal abortion and died

         9       from it.  There are tragic circumstances on both

        10       sides that can come out of the discussion of

        11       this legislation, but as long as we're allowing

        12       the medical procedure to take place in this

        13       state, and it is a legal procedure, we have to

        14       understand that in the end, as sad as it may be,

        15       the decision most relevant will be the decision

        16       of the most affected party, which is the

        17       decision of the young person who is involved.

        18                      Eighty-one percent of those who

        19       were queried said that the reason they made such

        20       a decision, the reason they didn't want to have

        21       a child at 14 or 15 is because they thought they

        22       were too young to have the child, and that is

        23       probably what all of their parents, 100 percent











                                                             
11029

         1       of their parents, would have told them prior to

         2       their becoming pregnant if there had been any

         3       kind of discussion of it.

         4                      So rather than lecturing society

         5       on what society's morality should be, we have to

         6       understand, as legislators, that we have to

         7       provide the protections for individuals who are

         8       undergoing a very difficult period.

         9                      Now, if Senator Padavan would

        10       yield for a few questions.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Senator Padavan, do you yield to Senator

        13       Paterson?

        14                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes, I'll be

        15       glad to.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        17       Senator yields, sir.

        18                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator

        19       Padavan, the Medical Society opposes this

        20       legislation and although they feel that doctors

        21       should counsel and should certainly scrutinize

        22       the procedure maybe more closely than they do

        23       now, they feel that there is no real accurate











                                                             
11030

         1       burden of proof set forth in the Penal Law by

         2       this legislation and that to pass it might even

         3       have a constitutional prohibition but at the

         4       least is not clear on what it is that the

         5       responsibility of the doctor is.

         6                      And I was wondering if you could

         7       explain to us what the doctor's responsibility

         8       is, and why we're going to prosecute the doctor

         9       when it is likely that the doctor may be given

        10        -- may not have the right information?

        11                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  First, Senator,

        12       I believe you are but, if you are not, let me

        13       share with you the fact that parental

        14       notification and in some cases parental consent

        15       is currently the law in over 30 states in this

        16       country.  Massachusetts, one of our neighbors,

        17       is an example, and the concerns that you have

        18       expressed relative to constitutionality have

        19       been addressed, and the laws where the Supreme

        20       Court has been called upon to evaluate them have

        21       been ruled constitutional.

        22                      Even consent, if properly crafted

        23       in terms of statute, is constitutional.  So,











                                                             
11031

         1       therefore, the concern that you just outlined of

         2       the Medical Society -- and I have not seen their

         3       memo directly to be able to respond to it fully,

         4       but from the part you've mentioned,

         5       constitutionality is not an issue here.  It's

         6       long since not been an issue.

         7                      But we have received reports from

         8       some of these states that have had the statute

         9       on the books.  Minnesota is an example, and

        10       there are no problems of the sort that you just

        11       outlined.

        12                      In regard to the physician, the

        13       bill is very clear.  It says that the physician

        14       must notify parents or whether he is referring

        15        -- or if the referring physician has done so

        16       already, then the physician in the abortion

        17       facility does not have to -- within 48 hours

        18       prior to the surgery or the procedure having

        19       been undertaken.  So I think the doctor's

        20       responsibility is very clear here.

        21                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Senator, do you continue to yield?











                                                             
11032

         1                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator

         2       Padavan, let me give you this scenario.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Senator yields.

         5                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Some public

         6       interest group decides that they are going to -

         7       since they are opposed to the actual

         8       legalization of abortion, they are going to

         9       plant themselves outside doctors' offices.  They

        10       are going to follow the individuals who come out

        11       who have sought an abortion.  They are going to

        12       find out how old all of them were.  They are

        13       going to find out whether or not there was

        14       parental notification.

        15                      And I'm sure somewhere, in a

        16       large caseload, somebody has either arranged for

        17       some phony parental notification or there is

        18       incorrect information about the patient's age,

        19       but now you have the criteria to prosecute

        20       doctors, and in light of the fact that that is a

        21       very likely possibility when we see the

        22       tremendous effort that has been done to prevent

        23       individuals from going to clinics to receive











                                                             
11033

         1       abortions who are adults, with that likelihood

         2       existing, would this not have a chilling effect

         3       on the right to a legal procedure for those

         4       individuals, even if they had parental consent,

         5       because the doctors now become unwilling because

         6       their licenses and even their livelihoods are at

         7       risk?

         8                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator, I

         9       think your point is so obtuse that it almost

        10       makes it impossible to respond to, but I'll do

        11       my best.

        12                      First, with regard to the

        13       physician, if you read the statute, page 2 -- or

        14       the proposed statute -- in the beginning of

        15       paragraph 5, we are very careful to say that the

        16       physician must intentionally -- I underline that

        17       word -- intentionally seek to avoid the

        18       application of notification.  So I don't

        19       foresee, as has not been the case in 30 some-odd

        20       states where notification is currently the law.

        21                      Now, you are doing something that

        22       the Majority Leader in his well-presented

        23       remarks tried to preclude.  You are bringing











                                                             
11034

         1       this issue of parental notification and parental

         2       responsibility and parental prerogative into the

         3       issue of abortion rights, reproductive rights,

         4       and that is not the bill before us.

         5                      So, therefore, to relate this

         6       issue with, quote, I think you said "chilling

         7       effect" -- do I quote you properly -

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Yes.

         9                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  -- is not only

        10       inappropriate but not applicable with regard to

        11       the matter before us.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Paterson.

        14                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator, if

        15       I'm correct, you said to me that this bill has

        16       been passed in 30 other states and that there

        17       has not been a sustained constitutional

        18       challenge.  But when I said to you that there

        19       was a question of constitutionality about this

        20       bill, I wasn't referring to the constitutions of

        21       those 30 states.  I was referring to the

        22       Constitution of New York State which has much

        23       different parameters than the other states,











                                                             
11035

         1       including Article XVII, and so what I'm saying

         2       to you is that the application of law quite

         3       often goes beyond the scope of the intent when

         4       the law is drafted.

         5                      So if you were defining for me

         6       what was in your contemplation when you wrote

         7       the bill, well, that is not at issue because you

         8       can tell us what you mean.  But what I'm telling

         9       you is that to suggest that there might not be a

        10       further application beyond the scope of what you

        11       have written would conflict with the purpose of

        12       many laws that we pass in this chamber.

        13                      Sometimes the intent of the law

        14       is written right into the law.  Sometimes the

        15       purpose of the law is actually hidden, but I'm

        16       not even suggesting that in this case because

        17       you have told us what you are trying to

        18       address.

        19                      What I'm saying to you is, if

        20       that's the case, then why can't you find one

        21       group or anybody who basically is pro-choice who

        22       thinks this is a good bill?  I mean, I

        23       understand the discussion.  I understand what











                                                             
11036

         1       your point of view is, and I think that it is

         2       very well worth the time discussing it, but what

         3       you are trying to suggest is that you can't talk

         4       about the legal right to have an abortion

         5       because you wrote a bill that addresses parental

         6       consent, and I'm telling you -

         7                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  "Notification."

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  I'm sorry,

         9       notification, and I'm telling you that at some

        10       point if the notification is perceived to be

        11       consent, at least by the child -- I mean I don't

        12       see any notification here for the bypass -

        13       where the child can go to Family Court.  So

        14       since the child doesn't know that, if the

        15       notification feels like it's going to be consent

        16       to the child, then we're going to have a bunch

        17       of illegal procedures in the state, and that was

        18       one of reasons we legalized the process in the

        19       first place, so it does relate -- it does relate

        20       to the issue of abortion.

        21                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator,

        22       first -

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Whether or not











                                                             
11037

         1       you agree with it, I'm saying it does relate.

         2                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  I don't,

         3       obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be standing

         4       here, but let's respond as best we can to your

         5       points.

         6                      First, Senator, you say identify

         7       people who are pro-choice who are in favor of

         8       parental notification, and I would roughly tell

         9       you there would probably be about 10 million

        10       people in this state who, when asked the

        11       question, "Are you for legal abortions?" and

        12       they would say, "Yes," and then if asked the

        13       same question, as I have done in my own

        14       district, "Are you for parental notification?"

        15       and they would say, "Yes," because people make a

        16       distinction between the issue of so-called

        17       reproductive rights and the issue of a 13- or

        18       14- or 15-year-old girl about to have a serious

        19       intrusive procedure performed on her body, and

        20       so, Senator, I give you millions of people in

        21       New York State who fall into the category you

        22       sought for me to identify.

        23                      Now, with regard to the other











                                                             
11038

         1       issue, you mention that we will be forcing young

         2       girls into illegal abortions.  I would urge you

         3       to find out for me where that has happened in

         4       any of the many states in this country that have

         5       this type of law in effect.  It has not

         6       happened.  It has not happened, nor would it

         7       happen, in my view, in New York State.

         8                      But let us concern ourselves with

         9       the potential harm that we know has occurred -

        10       potential in the sense of already been a reality

        11       and, therefore, potential in terms of future

        12       realities -- when young girls in the age groups

        13       we're talking about, without having had the

        14       benefit of psychological treatment and care,

        15       without having the benefit of follow-up medical

        16       care.  I think you know, Senator, that the

        17       younger the age in terms of abortion, the more

        18       prevalent the opportunities are for serious

        19       complications not only at that point in time but

        20       in the person's future.

        21                      So we're talking not only about

        22       the present situation in regard to this 13- or

        23       14- or 15-year-old girl, we're talking about her











                                                             
11039

         1       future, her emotional health, her physical

         2       health and so, Senator, there's where the

         3       tragedies potentially lie, not in children

         4       rushing to be given illegal abortions in ways

         5       that we have heard related to in other cases in

         6       other situations.

         7                      So I suggest to you that your

         8       concerns are not valid, but mine are, and I say

         9       that to you with all due respect to you as a

        10       person.  The concerns I talk about are ones that

        11       we have identified.  We have come face to face

        12       with them.  The concerns that you talk about

        13       have not been ones that we are aware of in those

        14       states where, currently, notification takes

        15       place.

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

        17       if Senator Padavan would continue to yield?

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

        20                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       continues to yield.

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  In the cases











                                                             
11040

         1       where you have illegal abortions, I don't know

         2       how you are asking me to document them.  But

         3       even prior to your last remarks, I did document

         4       a case in Indiana where exactly what I was

         5       telling you occurred, so I don't know how that

         6       can be characterized as not -

         7                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  If Senator will

         8       allow me, I'll be glad to respond to that.  You

         9       are talking about the Becky Bell case in

        10       Indiana.  Am I correct?

        11                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Correct.

        12                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Let's talk

        13       about it if you want to bring it up.  The

        14       autopsy report, which was publicly released,

        15       failed to show any abortion.  None whatsoever.

        16       Even the advocates -- or, I should say, the

        17       opponents of this legislation are ceasing to use

        18       the Becky Bell case as an illustration of why

        19       this legislation is inappropriate or the wrong

        20       thing to do.  However, we do have a case in

        21       Chicago and we have the one I talked about in

        22       Queens Village, where there was no question

        23       about the fact that an abortion took place and











                                                             
11041

         1       there was no question about the fact that, in

         2       both instances, two 13-year-old girls died.  So

         3       the situation you cite, the Indiana one, is

         4       certainly not applicable to the issue you and I

         5       are discussing.  The ones I brought up are.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Well, Senator,

         7       her father certainly doesn't feel that way, but

         8       what I would suggest to you is, are you saying

         9       that this is -- assuming that you're right, and

        10       I don't know where you are getting your

        11       information from, but let's assume that you're

        12       right.  Suppose this case is a mis

        13       characterization of the issue that I'm raising.

        14       Are you telling me that a young person who

        15       doesn't feel that they would be able to seek to

        16       obtain the consent of their parents through the

        17       notification would never think of going out and

        18       trying to find a way to terminate the pregnancy

        19       when, in fact, when the issue of abortion was

        20       illegal in this state before 1972, this happened

        21       all the time, so why would these young people be

        22       any different than their predecessors?

        23                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator, you











                                                             
11042

         1       are missing a major point here, if I may

         2       respond, Mr. President.

         3                      You are missing a major point.

         4       You keep bringing up the word "consent."  There

         5       is no requirement of consent.  Once the doctor

         6       or the abortion facility has rendered

         7       notification, that is the beginning and the end

         8       of what we are mandating or attempting to

         9       mandate.  Consent is not a requirement in this

        10       proposal.  Some states do have it, but that's

        11       not what is before us.

        12                      Incidentally, we passed the

        13       consent bill in 1976, which I sponsored in this

        14       house.  It passed the Assembly, and was vetoed

        15       by then Governor Carey, who cites time and time

        16       again, in both speeches and in writings, why

        17       that was one of the worst mistakes he's made

        18       during his tenure as governor, but that's

        19       another story.

        20                      I simply wish to correct you when

        21       you bring up the issue of consent, because

        22       that's not what is before us; and while it may

        23       be inadvertent on your part, you have used the











                                                             
11043

         1       word "consent" at least three times so far, and

         2       I would respectfully ask you not to use it

         3       because it's not applicable.

         4                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Excuse

         6       me, Senator Paterson.

         7                      Senator Oppenheimer, why do you

         8       rise?

         9                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Would

        10       Senator Paterson yield for a second while I ask

        11       a question of something that Senator Padavan

        12       just said?

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Paterson has the floor if he wants to yield the

        15       floor.

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  I would yield,

        17       Mr. President.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Oppenheimer, you are asking Senator Padavan to

        20       yield to a question?

        21                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Yes.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        23       Padavan, do you yield to a question from Senator











                                                             
11044

         1       Oppenheimer?

         2                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes, I'll be

         3       glad to.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         5       Senator yields.

         6                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Something

         7       you just said where I am a bit confused.

         8                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  You're going to

         9       have to speak a little louder.

        10                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  There was

        11       something that you just made preference to.  If

        12       the courts were to say -- the parent -- to

        13       decide -- the parent says no.  They don't want

        14       the child to have the abortion.  Can the child,

        15       the youngster, pregnant youngster -

        16                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        17                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  -- then go

        18       ahead and have the -

        19                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes, that is

        20       the point I'm making here.

        21                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  I just

        22       wanted to clarify.

        23                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  The involvement











                                                             
11045

         1       of the Family Court is on the issue of

         2       notification, where the child through its

         3       advocates or directly, however the case may be,

         4       says, "I don't want to notify my parent or

         5       parents."  The Family Court would make a

         6       determination on that issue alone, not on the

         7       issue of consent.  That's why I interrupted

         8       Senator Paterson -- and I apologize for doing so

         9        -- on that issue because it's so critical.

        10                      And you are asking a proper

        11       question to clarify that, and I appreciate it.

        12                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Thank you.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Paterson.

        15                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

        16       President.  Senator Padavan, "notification" is

        17       the word that you wrote in the legislation.

        18       Now, in the same legislation, you actually

        19       acknowledged the issue of coercion; in other

        20       words, where the parent is notified and now the

        21       parent is using the authority that a parent has

        22       to affect the decision that the young person is

        23       making, and you in your legislation provide for











                                                             
11046

         1       the ability of the child to emancipate themself

         2       and then receive public assistance should the

         3       parent try to force the young person not to go

         4       ahead and have the abortion and the young girl

         5       doesn't want to have the abortion.

         6                      So while you tell us about the

         7       fact that this is only notification, you

         8       understand, in reality, what notification means

         9        -- and I don't think that there is any reason

        10       to, in any way, differ from that which you have

        11       written in your legislation, in debate on the

        12       floor and so, all of a sudden now, I don't think

        13       it's just as simple as notification, because we

        14       all know what notification means.

        15                      Where notification or where

        16       parental involvement existed in Minnesota, the

        17       number of second trimester abortions, which is

        18       certainly more dangerous than first trimester,

        19       went up 26 percent.  In Massachusetts, where we

        20       had the parental -- I guess we'll call it

        21       involvement at this time because you don't want

        22       me to say consent -- where there was parental

        23       involvement, the number of out-of-state abor











                                                             
11047

         1       tions among the young people in Massachusetts

         2       went to 35 percent, and back in Minnesota, the

         3       number of births, generally, went up 40 percent

         4       because the judges didn't think that the young

         5       people were fit to have abortions, but they were

         6       fit to be mothers, when 81 percent of them said,

         7       "We're too young to be bearing children."

         8                      Now, guess what?  I agree with

         9       them.  I think their parents agreed with them;

        10       and I think if this was before they were in the

        11       unfortunate predicament that they are in now,

        12       then that would have been exactly the advice we

        13       would have given them.  The notification that we

        14       really wish that the parents had is that the

        15       young girls were having sex, but they are not

        16       getting that notification, and I'm saying that

        17       is not an issue that can change as a result of

        18       the discussion between you and I, but what I'm

        19       saying to you is that to, in some way, not

        20       really face what notification really means is

        21       not to really address what this bill is really

        22       going to affect, and that's perhaps why we're

        23       disagreeing because you are stopping short of











                                                             
11048

         1       understanding what the bill does.

         2                      Whether you support the bill or

         3       not, whoever wants to vote on this bill, let's

         4       just get clear what this bill is going to do and

         5       what the bill means.

         6                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Mr. President.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Mendez, why do you rise?

         9                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Mr. President, I

        10       wonder if Senator Padavan would yield for a

        11       couple of questions?

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Paterson, do you yield to Senator Mendez?

        14                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Just a couple of

        15       questions.

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Oh, sure.

        17       Absolutely, Mr. President.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       yields.

        20                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Senator

        21       Paterson, would you say -- which would you

        22       consider to be a more risky medical procedure,

        23       to have an abortion or to have a tooth drilled?











                                                             
11049

         1                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Having an

         2       abortion, Senator.

         3                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Now, how do you

         4       reconcile the existing facts today in New York

         5       State that a child, in fact, not one under 16

         6       but one could be 17 and less than 18 years of

         7       age, would have to have not parental notifica

         8       tion but parental consent and that parent would

         9       have to go to the dental office and stay there

        10       throughout the procedure, while a 13- and a

        11       14-year-old is just taken, let's say, from

        12       school and taken to a place where abortions are

        13       performed without the parents knowing anything

        14       about it?  How do you reconcile that?  What is

        15       your opinion on that?

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  First of all,

        17       we're talking about legal abortions that are

        18       conducted in -

        19                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  No, I mean -

        20       okay.  First tell me that, and then we will talk

        21       about that.

        22                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Which "that"

        23       do you want me to tell you first?











                                                             
11050

         1                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  You know very

         2       well which one, my dear David, and that is, how

         3       do you reconcile, you already stated that an

         4       abortion is a more dangerous or more riskier

         5       procedure, medical procedure, than having a

         6       tooth drilled?

         7                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Oh, okay.

         8                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  And by law -- by

         9       law in New York State, parents have to go to the

        10       dental office and be there.  Forget about the

        11       child being 14 or 15 or 16 years old.  The child

        12       must be less than 18 years of age.

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Currently, if

        14       the child is pregnant, they don't need that

        15       permission, and the reason for that, Senator,

        16       is -

        17                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  It's better for

        18       a parent to be advised -- or to be notified.

        19       It's better for a parent to be notified that

        20       their child must have a tooth drilled but that

        21       same parent -- it is okay not to notify them

        22       that their child is going to have a riskier

        23       medical procedure like an abortion is?











                                                             
11051

         1                      SENATOR PATERSON:  What I would

         2       say, Senator, is it certainly is not okay.  It

         3       is not okay.  But what we're talking about in

         4       this bill is the damages that would be sought in

         5       civil liability against the doctor if this

         6       occurs, and so while -- I don't think it's okay.

         7                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  And those -

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  -- you know,

         9       if I can just finish.  In most cases, Senator,

        10       the younger people are seeking their parents.

        11       In fact, the younger their age the more they are

        12       seeking their parents, but what they are doing

        13       is they are only going to one parent, preferably

        14       the mother in most of those cases.  What this

        15       bill says is that both parents have to be

        16       notified within a 48-hour period.

        17                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  And if both

        18       parents are not present because they are

        19       divorced, or if there are not parents around but

        20       there is a legal guardian, then that person will

        21       be notified.  Isn't that so?

        22                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator

        23       Padavan did address the issue of the unavailable











                                                             
11052

         1       parent in the legislation.  Now, what I would

         2       say is that he describes a reasonable period of

         3       time.  I don't know what a reasonable period of

         4       time is.  That's unclear.  But I will concede

         5       that Senator Padavan has addressed the issue of

         6       not being able to find both of the parents or

         7       their unavailability.

         8                      But what I'm saying is if you

         9       have both parents available and you have a

        10       situation right now where a predominant number

        11       of the young people are actually informing one

        12       of the parents, but we're saying in this

        13       legislation, That's not enough; you have to tell

        14       both parents.

        15                      So, in other words, all of the

        16       issues that you just raised, the issue of the

        17       seriousness of the procedure, how it's more

        18       important than drilling a tooth, what I would

        19       like to know is why is it more important that

        20       both parents know than one because we even

        21       understand that an adult can make that

        22       decision.  One adult can make that decision, but

        23       this bill says, That's not enough; we need two











                                                             
11053

         1       adults, and I'm saying, why would we need two

         2       adults when the question you just asked could be

         3       answered through the intervention of one adult?

         4       Why do we need two?

         5                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Well, the bill

         6       states that if the two parents are not available

         7       but there is a legal guardian available -

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  No, Senator,

         9       I'm saying the parents are available.  In the

        10       situation that I'm suggesting, the parents are

        11       available.  Why do we need two parents?

        12                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Senator

        13       Paterson, a point of clarification.  If I have a

        14       14-year-old daughter who becomes pregnant -- and

        15       let's assume that my home is a so-called

        16       dysfunctional home, let us assume that I am such

        17       a terrible mother that I use "crack" or I engage

        18       in alcoholic bouts and that I mistreat my child

        19       enormously -- let's assume all that -- and that

        20       child is pregnant, that child would feel -- the

        21       assumption is that that child would feel that

        22       she can not come to me because I am such a

        23       horrible mother that I mistreat her, I abuse











                                                             
11054

         1       her; and thus, under this bill, what is that

         2       child supposed to do?  She doesn't have to tell

         3       me, notify me, but would she go directly to the

         4       Department of Social Services and say, "I can

         5       not tell my mother, that horrible woman, that I

         6       am pregnant; she abuses me"?  What will happen

         7       then?  Will that child be able to get a waiver

         8       from the Family Court without letting me know?

         9       Is that in the bill?

        10                      SENATOR PATERSON:  It's actually

        11       a very good point, Senator.  You've actually

        12       made a very good point.  I don't know why your

        13       point would argue in favor of passing the bill,

        14       but I acknowledge you've made a very good point.

        15                      But I just want to ask you -

        16                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  But why?  Tell

        17       me why.  It is a point that would be good for

        18       passing this bill, wouldn't it?

        19                      SENATOR PATERSON:  No, it's

        20       actually a reason not to pass this bill.

        21                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Explain to me

        22       why not, please.

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Because,











                                                             
11055

         1       Senator, you've just described the circumstance

         2       that people are having of a parent you can't

         3       confide in.  You have a parent you can't confide

         4       in, and that is a situation that isn't brought

         5       about by your point of view or Senator Padavan's

         6       or mine.  It is a circumstance that exists.  As

         7       unfortunate as it is, it is a circumstance that

         8       exists.

         9                      But I would just like to ask you,

        10       Senator.

        11                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Yes.

        12                      SENATOR PATERSON:  You said that

        13       if a person goes to the dentist's office that a

        14       parent has to come with them.  How many parents

        15       have to come with them?

        16                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  How many parents

        17       does a child have?

        18                      SENATOR PATERSON:  How many

        19       parents have to come to the dentist's office?

        20                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  One?  Or both?

        21                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Only one,

        22       Senator.  Only one.

        23                      And my question is, why do we











                                                             
11056

         1       need two parents to be notified, unless the

         2       notification doesn't really have anything to do

         3       with the medical procedure, unless the

         4       notification is really the precursor to consent,

         5       which really is, in a sense, the way that you

         6       are chilling the opportunity of young people who

         7       legally can receive an abortion in this state

         8       from not getting one.

         9                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Do you think

        10       that this bill is anti-choice?

        11                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Absolutely,

        12       without a doubt.

        13                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  How do you

        14       define anti-choice?  Anti-choice is not having a

        15       choice of doing anything.  Why do you consider

        16       this bill anti-choice?

        17                      SENATOR PATERSON:  I consider it

        18       that way because it goes one way and not the

        19       other.  It provides for a protection for the

        20       young person who wants to bring the pregnancy to

        21       term.  If they bring the pregnancy to term and

        22       the parent doesn't like it, the parent may take

        23       some action against the child, but the child can











                                                             
11057

         1       emancipate themself, become an adult, strangely

         2       enough, and now make the decisions.  We're going

         3       to let them become adults now.  We're going to

         4       let them apply for social services.

         5                      But, strangely enough, if the

         6       child does not seek to bring the pregnancy to

         7       term, all of a sudden we don't have any

         8       protection.  We are inviting coercion and

         9       intimidation by passing this legislation.

        10                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  So you are not

        11       answering my question, Senator Paterson.  Do you

        12       know why?  Because you are saying that something

        13       occurs if a child chooses to have an abortion

        14       but something does not occur if the child

        15       chooses not to have an abortion, so that child

        16       then has a choice of either having an abortion

        17       or not having an abortion.

        18                      SENATOR PATERSON:  No, Senator,

        19       it's not whether you are or are not having an

        20       abortion.  It's whether or not you feel you

        21       should have one.  It's not what you actually

        22       do.  It's what your intention is and the ability

        23       of the parent to use the parental authority to











                                                             
11058

         1       stop you.

         2                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  That child has

         3       an option, has a choice.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Mendez.

         6                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  I'm sorry, Mr.

         7       President.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Mendez, excuse me just a minute.  I've been

        10       trying to let you go so that you could,

        11       hopefully, have a meaningful dialogue at the

        12       same time.

        13                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  I'm sorry, Mr.

        14       President.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  This is

        16       not your time on the floor; but if you would

        17       like Senator Paterson to yield to a question,

        18       certainly that's entirely permissible.

        19                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Mr. President, I

        20       think that Senator Paterson has been most

        21       enlightening on this issue, and I think that he

        22       has been courteous in allowing me to pursue this

        23       that interests me so very much.  So I want to











                                                             
11059

         1       thank him here; and, in private, we shall keep

         2       on discussing this issue.

         3                      Thank you, Mr. President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Paterson, you have the floor.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

         7       President.

         8                      I want to thank Senator Mendez

         9       for the conversation with her.  Even though we

        10       don't agree, it really brought me to the focus

        11       of what I was talking to Senator Padavan about,

        12       which is that, yes, I do consider this to be

        13       anti-choice legislation.  I consider it to be

        14       legislation that actually undermines the laws

        15       that exist now, and I think the legislation is

        16       in existence because the individuals who are

        17       supporting it can't change the law that they

        18       would like to change.

        19                      Now, Senator Padavan and Senator

        20       Bruno cited the public that they feel is voting

        21       in favor of passing this bill, but when people

        22       see what this legislation actually would do -

        23       and that's what we're trying to point out here,











                                                             
11060

         1       the fact that when 15-year-olds were queried

         2       that 36 percent of them said that their parents

         3       didn't talk to them about any of this, the time

         4       to start talking to young people isn't when they

         5       are pregnant and seeking some kind of

         6       assistance.  The time to talk to them is

         7       beforehand.

         8                      But I'm not going to pretend to

         9       stand here and give society a lecture about what

        10       society should do.  What I'm doing is, I am

        11       trying to advocate in favor of the law that we

        12       have in existence now which allows for that

        13       abortion.  The individual, the 81 percent of the

        14       young people who've decided that they're too

        15       young to have children, they are right, Mr.

        16       President.  They are absolutely right.  They

        17       know that this would be a complicated burden for

        18       them through their lives, and it would be an

        19       endurance that they are really not up for.

        20                      We, as a society, aren't

        21       providing any early childhood care or public

        22       assistance or minimum wage rising to the level

        23       that we're going to give them a fair chance if











                                                             
11061

         1       they go to term.  But what we are doing is we

         2       are restricting the rights of individuals

         3       because we don't like the laws that exist now,

         4       and I think it's a little pious to stand up here

         5       and say that this really just relates to

         6       parental notification because it really

         7       doesn't.

         8                      In those situations where we need

         9       parental notification, then let's notify one

        10       parent.  The kids are already doing that, 59

        11       percent of them over 16, 74 percent of them over

        12       15, 91 percent of them over 14, and higher for

        13       those who are younger than 14.  They are

        14       vulnerable, they are in trouble, they seek the

        15       counsel of their parents.

        16                      But why do we need the second

        17       parent?  We only need one adult to make a

        18       decision and to talk to the child.  We need the

        19       second parent because we are trying to find as

        20       many people until we can get the veto to stop

        21       the process in the first place.  That's what I

        22       think this bill actually does, and that's what I

        23       think the danger of this legislation actually











                                                             
11062

         1       is.

         2                      In terms of the states that have

         3       put this parental involvement into effect, you

         4       have a higher incidence of out-of-state

         5       abortions, higher incidence of second trimester

         6       abortions, higher incidence of problems within

         7       the family, and the bypass that we allow the

         8       Family Court to allow, we don't even notify the

         9       individual who is concerned of their opportunity

        10       to receive that.

        11                      So for a number of reasons, I

        12       really think that this is legislation that is

        13       inappropriate and does not really relate to the

        14       importance of the legislation, and I urge a no

        15       vote on it.

        16                      Thank you.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  For the

        18       benefit of the members present and those who can

        19       hear my voice, I would simply mention that this

        20       debate started at noon.  The two hours would

        21       expire at 2:00.  There are 13 other members who

        22       have requested time to speak.

        23                      Senator Dollinger is next on the











                                                             
11063

         1       list.

         2                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

         3       President.  Will Senator Padavan yield to a

         4       series of questions?

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Padavan, do you yield?

         7                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  If I could,

         8       Mr. President, just ask for a series of

         9       questions so we don't have to -

        10                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Like the

        11       prosecutor.

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Excuse me?

        13                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  That's all

        14       right.  Yes.  The answer is yes.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       yields.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Senator, I

        18       think this is a very serious bill, and I

        19       understand the very serious concern that you

        20       have.  What I want to do is go through this bill

        21       and ask a series of questions about whether what

        22       this bill does is achieve the effect that you

        23       want.











                                                             
11064

         1                      Let's start with the definition

         2       of "unemancipated minor".  How does that come

         3       about?  I would assume that the child walks in

         4       and the physician says, "How old are you?"  What

         5       happens if the child says, "I'm 17 years old,"

         6       what does the physician then do?

         7                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  If the child is

         8       17 years old or even 16 years old, the bill is

         9       not applicable.

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  What if the

        11       child isn't telling the truth?

        12                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  If a child is

        13       not telling the truth?

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  The child is

        15       15 years old and says to the physician "I'm 16,"

        16       which is a common phenomenon in our society.  My

        17       child, my son who is 16 years old has been heard

        18       to say "I'm 17," "I'm 18."  He oftentimes -

        19       perhaps lying about your age is not the most

        20       serious crime that we have in our state, but it

        21       happens all the time.

        22                      What happens when a 15-year-old

        23       girl walks in and says, "I'm 16"?  What does the











                                                             
11065

         1       physician then do, if anything, under this

         2       bill?

         3                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  If the

         4       youngster represents herself as not being within

         5       the age parameters that this bill provides, and

         6       the physician has no reason to disbelieve her,

         7       the abortion clinic or whatever, then obviously

         8       there is no liability -- if that's what you are

         9       asking me -- on the part of the entity

        10       performing the abortion.

        11                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Okay.  So

        12       there is no notification required if the child

        13       lies; is that correct?

        14                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  There is no

        15       notification required if, in the view of the

        16       child -- you are asking a question that begs an

        17       answer.  You are asking me a question like they

        18       know the child is lying.  If they know the child

        19       is lying, then obviously notification applies.

        20       If they believe the child, based on information

        21       that's provided to them, and there are a variety

        22       of ways of doing that, then obviously

        23       notification is not required.











                                                             
11066

         1                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  But, in

         2       essence, by putting the age at 16, any child

         3       that says "I'm 16," the physician has discharged

         4       all his responsibilities under the law by simply

         5       saying, "The child is 16; I don't have to give

         6       notification."  There's nothing in this bill

         7       that requires him to do anything more, is

         8       there?

         9                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator, we

        10       have ages of majority.  Emancipation in all of

        11       our other statutes is 18 for a whole host of

        12       issues.  So the question of verification of age

        13       is not unique to this proposal.  It's embodied

        14       in thousands of sections of law ranging from the

        15       Alcoholic Beverage Control Law to the Motor

        16       Vehicle Law, and so on and so on and so on.

        17                      Someone comes in at 16 in some

        18       parts of the state can get a driver's license if

        19       they go to the Motor Vehicle Bureau.  But the

        20       point of the matter is if, in the view of the

        21       performing entity, they believe the child to be

        22       16 or older, then notification is not required.

        23       That's the only answer I can give you.











                                                             
11067

         1                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Okay.  But

         2       there's nothing in this bill that requires the

         3       physician to do anything more than ask the

         4       question and be satisfied with the answer;

         5       correct?  There's nothing in here that requires

         6       him to verify it, to ask for a driver's license,

         7       to ask for a birth certificate, ask for school

         8       information?  In fact, if they put down on the

         9       application form or on the medical form, "I'm 16

        10       years old," the issue is settled and no

        11       notification applies, no matter how old the

        12       child actually is?

        13                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  I have answered

        14       that question the only way I can, Senator.  If

        15       you keep asking it, you're only going to get the

        16       same answer, so that's where we're at.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Okay.  What

        18       happens, Senator, if the child says, "I'm 15

        19       years old, but I have been freed from the care,

        20       custody and control of my parents"?

        21                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  I'm sorry.

        22       Would you repeat that again, please?

        23                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  What happens











                                                             
11068

         1       if the child says to the physician, "I'm 15

         2       years old, but I have been freed from the care,

         3       custody and control of my parents"?  What, if

         4       anything, does the physician have to do to

         5       verify that statement?  The bill doesn't require

         6       that he or she do anything.  Simply, if the

         7       child says it -

         8                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator, if you

         9       look on page 3 of the bill, paragraph 5, where

        10       it says, "Any person who intentionally performs

        11       an abortion with knowledge that or with reckless

        12       disregard to whether the person upon whom the

        13       abortion is to be performed is an unemancipated

        14       minor and who intentionally or knowingly

        15       violates the requirements of this section shall

        16       be guilty of a misdemeanor."

        17                      That's the answer to your

        18       question; therefore, the responsibility on the

        19       performing entity would be to ensure that the

        20       child is emancipated.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  How does the

        22       person who is making that determination, the

        23       physician, the health care provider, how do they











                                                             
11069

         1       do that?  What would you recommend under the

         2       bill that they do to determine whether or not

         3       they have been freed from the care, custody and

         4       control of their parents?

         5                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Well, there are

         6       three parts to the emancipated minor definition,

         7       Mr. President.  A minor has been lawfully

         8       married -- that's kind of obvious; I don't think

         9       it would be difficult to indicate that fact -

        10       or has by court order or otherwise been freed

        11       from the care, custody and control of her

        12       parents.

        13                      It is the responsibility of the

        14       performing entity to determine if one or more of

        15       those emancipating conditions are indeed true.

        16                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  But how does

        17       the physician do it?  When the child says,

        18       "Doctor, I have been freed from the care,

        19       control and custody of my parents.  I don't

        20       report to them.  I don't live in the house."

        21                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  "Then where do

        22       you live?"

        23                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Excuse me?











                                                             
11070

         1                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  "Where do you

         2       live?  With whom do you live, and what is the

         3       person whom you live with" or whatever?

         4                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  But the child

         5       doesn't -

         6                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  So, therefore,

         7       I think there -- you know, Senator, your ques

         8       tion is somewhat disingenuous.  We're talking

         9       about a physician, a professional person, about

        10       to perform a very -- potentially about to

        11       perform a very serious intrusive procedure.

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  M-m h-m-m.

        13                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Now, you are

        14       suggesting within the framework of your question

        15       that these very reasonable determinations are

        16       beyond the scope and capacity of a doctor or a

        17       health professional to achieve, when those same

        18       professionals are requiring far more significant

        19       -- far more significant implementing require

        20       ments in other things other than abortion.

        21                      So I suggest to you, Senator,

        22       that your question is difficult to answer

        23       directly because it is an inappropriate











                                                             
11071

         1       question.

         2                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Senator, I

         3       have several other questions, but please

         4       recognize that my focus is not so much on the

         5       physician.  My focus is whether or not we are

         6       going to make our children into liars because

         7       we're going to tell them, "If you say you are

         8       17, you can get an abortion.  If you say that

         9       you are free from the custody and control of

        10       your parents, you can get an abortion."

        11                      The question becomes, what are we

        12       doing to our children; what message are we

        13       sending to our children by doing this?

        14                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator, I will

        15       try once again.  You heard me mention several

        16       times that this is law in many states, and the

        17       problems that you are talking about have not

        18       arisen.

        19                      Now, earlier, Senator Paterson

        20       asked me if I was aware of the opposition of the

        21       Medical Society of the State of New York.  I

        22       told him I hadn't received a memo.  Since he

        23       asked the question, I have.  One of our











                                                             
11072

         1       colleagues was kind enough to give it to me.

         2                      First, I will advise you and

         3       Senator Paterson that this memo -- and I'll

         4       quote it, "Statement Relative to Mandatory

         5       Parental Consent."  Senator Paterson, I hope you

         6       heard me, "consent."  But even at that, it's not

         7       a memo in opposition.

         8                      But with regard to your question,

         9       there is a part of this memo I would like to

        10       quote:  "Physicians should strongly encourage

        11       minors to discuss their pregnancy with their

        12       parents.  Physicians should explain how parental

        13       involvement can be helpful and that parents are

        14       generally very understanding and supportive."

        15                      In any event, I have full faith

        16       and -- in the fact that physicians and other

        17       health professionals would be able to apply the

        18       unemancipated minor definition in this bill

        19       without any difficulty, as is currently the case

        20       throughout the country.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        22       President, I have a series of other questions.

        23                      Let me just point out something,











                                                             
11073

         1       Senator Padavan.  You have been the leading

         2       advocate of restrictions on illegal aliens.  In

         3       all of those bills, you have detailed in the

         4       statute exactly what is necessary to prove

         5       whether or not you are an alien, an illegal

         6       alien or a legal alien.  I'd suggest to you that

         7       that issue of what standard you are going to

         8       apply to the physician to determine age, what

         9       verification is necessary, may be critical to

        10       the future of this bill if it some day becomes

        11       law.

        12                      Let me turn your attention to

        13       another area of this bill.  The purpose of this

        14       bill according to the introduction is, it's

        15       designed to promote families; isn't that

        16       correct?

        17                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  It's designed

        18       to do lots of things, and I think I explained

        19       that at some length earlier, and I really don't

        20       feel obliged to impose that on my colleagues all

        21       over again.

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  But it's

        23       designed to protect family decision-making,











                                                             
11074

         1       isn't that correct?

         2                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Family

         3       involvement, parental involvement is obviously

         4       the major motivation.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  If you

         6       believe in parental involvement, why don't you

         7       notify the father of this fetus?  After all, he

         8       is the father, isn't he?

         9                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator, I

        10       restrain myself from even attempting to answer

        11       that question, so I will say to you I refuse to

        12       answer that question because it's beyond belief

        13       that you should even bring it up within the

        14       context of this bill.  We're talking about a 13

        15       or 14-year-old child.  Do you want us to get

        16       involved in trying to track down the other 14

        17       or 15- or -- whatever young boy who caused the

        18       pregnancy as a factor here?  That's

        19       unfortunately an issue that we might want to

        20       address but not within the context of this

        21       legislation.

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Through you,

        23       Mr. President.  But you certainly believe -











                                                             
11075

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         2       Dollinger, excuse me just a minute.

         3                      Senator Padavan, do you continue

         4       to yield to Senator Dollinger?

         5                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         7       Senator yields.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  But you

         9       certainly believe that the woman ought to have

        10       consultation with her parents, but you don't

        11       believe that the father of the child should have

        12       the right to consult with the woman who is

        13       supposedly, under your view of this, bearing his

        14       child?

        15                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Either you

        16       weren't here or you didn't hear a word I said.

        17       We're talking about this young girl's physical,

        18       emotional well-being at that point in time and

        19       in her future life.  That is our primary focus.

        20                      The family issue is also

        21       important, but the primary focus is on the

        22       health of that young girl, and whatever might be

        23       desirable in regard to the young man or young











                                                             
11076

         1       boy who caused the pregnancy is irrelevant to

         2       that major focus.  Now, I don't understand why

         3       you don't understand that.

         4                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Well, I'm not

         5       so sure I understand it.  I understand this bill

         6       is designed to promote parental involvement -

         7                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  That is -- what

         8       it's designed to do is -

         9                      SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- and yet one

        10       parent -- one parent -

        11                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  -- to protect

        12       and ensure the physical and emotional well-being

        13       of a girl under 16 years of age.  That's its

        14       primary focus, Senator.  That's why I shared

        15       with everyone in here the very tragic story of

        16       the young 13-year-old girl in my district.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  We'll get to

        18       that in a second.

        19                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Well, we will

        20       get to it.  It already happened.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  It did.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        23       Dollinger, are you asking Senator Padavan to











                                                             
11077

         1       continue to yield?

         2                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Yes, please,

         3       Mr. President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

         6                      Senator Dollinger, excuse me just

         7       a minute.

         8                      Senator Padavan?

         9                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes, I yield.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       continues to yield.

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Senator

        13       Padavan, you contain in here language that says

        14       that coercion to undergo an abortion is

        15       illegal.  Isn't that correct?

        16                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  We have a

        17       provision here that prohibits coercion by a

        18       parent relevant to undergoing an abortion.

        19                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  What about -

        20       is there any penalty in your bill for

        21       coercion -

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        23       Padavan.  Excuse me, Senator Dollinger.











                                                             
11078

         1                      Senator Padavan, do you continue

         2       to yield?

         3                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       continues to yield.

         6                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Is there any

         7       penalty in your bill for coercing a child not to

         8       undergo an abortion?

         9                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  No.

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  So the only

        11       penalty attaches -

        12                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Because -- if I

        13       might give you a complete answer.

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Yes, if you

        15       would.

        16                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  And it's an

        17       answer that might be relevant to one of the

        18       questions Senator Paterson asked earlier in his

        19       dialogue with Senator Mendez.

        20                      Parental notification is the

        21       essence of this bill, not consent.  Therefore,

        22       the abortion can take place without parental

        23       consent or prohibition.  All the physician or











                                                             
11079

         1       clinic must do is notify.  Therefore, the

         2       coercion provision, in our view, is not

         3       necessary with regard to the issue you raise.

         4                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  How does the

         5       child who is coerced by -

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       Dollinger, are you asking Senator Padavan to

         8       continue to yield?

         9                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  My apologies,

        10       Mr. President.  If Senator Padavan would

        11       continue to yield?

        12                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       continues to yield.

        15                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  How does the

        16       child who is coerced one way or the other get

        17       any relief?  What do they do?  Do they file a

        18       misdemeanor complaint against their parents for

        19       coercing them?

        20                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Well, let's

        21       read the whole section.  If coercion takes

        22       place, we have involvement of a court of

        23       competent jurisdiction which provides relief,











                                                             
11080

         1       and that court has the ability to provide the

         2       minor with counsel and give the matter expedited

         3       consideration, grant relief, including public

         4       support.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  So in other

         6       words, a child has to go into a courtroom and

         7       bring a legal complaint against their parents if

         8       they are coerced to undergo an abortion, but

         9       they don't have to do that if they're coerced -

        10       they don't do anything.  There is no relief

        11       available if they are coerced not to undergo an

        12       abortion?

        13                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  If the

        14       youngster has gone to an abortion clinic, been

        15       brought there, which is usually the case, by a

        16       social worker or some individual, the child is

        17       there and if notification takes place within the

        18       48 hours, then the abortion can be performed as

        19       a matter of law.

        20                      So, again, the question is

        21       difficult to respond to beyond that statement on

        22       my part.

        23                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Again,











                                                             
11081

         1       through you, Mr. President.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

         4                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       yields.

         7                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  What evidence

         8       do you envision being presented at this court

         9       room where the issue is whether or not the child

        10       is being coerced to undergo an abortion?  Can

        11       you tell me how you see that proceeding coming

        12       about, unraveling?

        13                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Well, first,

        14       Senator, I think you should be aware of the fact

        15       that in regard -- and if you'll turn to page 4,

        16       on line 46, beginning of line 46, you will see

        17       that we have provided that "the Supreme Court

        18       shall promulgate any rules and regulations

        19       necessary to ensure that proceedings under this

        20       section are handled in an expeditious and

        21       anonymous manner.  The Supreme Court in its

        22       discretion may issue such other and further

        23       lawful orders as it deems necessary to protect











                                                             
11082

         1       such person."

         2                      So we are providing for, in the

         3       bill, a mechanism to generate the answers to

         4       your questions.  However, those are not answers

         5       that I think anyone here, certainly not I, can

         6       provide to you when you say, "Do you envision".

         7       I'm not in the business of envisioning.  I don't

         8       think any of us are, but we do provide authority

         9       and direction to ensure that whatever is

        10       required is developed within the judiciary.

        11                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        12       President.  If Senator Padavan will continue to

        13       yield?

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

        16                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       continues to yield.

        19                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Senator, I

        20       agree with you that we provide authority and

        21       direction, but one of the other things we should

        22       do is provide some kind of statutory history,

        23       some kind of discussion, as I'm undergoing now











                                                             
11083

         1       with the sponsor of this bill, so that courts

         2       some day, when they look back and say, "How do

         3       we handle one of these coercion proceedings?"

         4       we'll be able to sit back and say, "Here's what

         5       Senator Padavan thought should be in the record

         6       of how these proceedings...."  They will look to

         7       us for some guidance.  That's why I ask the

         8       question.

         9                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  The bill is far

        10       more specific in that regard, Mr. President.  It

        11       provides the Court the mechanism and the

        12       authority and the direction to develop what you

        13       just outlined, rather than rely upon any

        14       dialogue between you and I, and I think that's

        15       far more appropriate.

        16                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  If Senator

        17       Padavan will continue to yield?

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

        20                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       yields.

        23                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  The bill











                                                             
11084

         1       creates a right of civil damages if for some

         2       reason the requirements are not complied with;

         3       isn't that correct?

         4                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Again, we refer

         5       to the bill itself -

         6                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Correct.

         7                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  -- page 3, line

         8       5, with regard to penalties, and the operative

         9       word here should be clearly understood,

        10       "intentionally performs an abortion with

        11       knowledge..." and so on.  The word

        12       "intentionally," meaning -

        13                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Correct.

        14                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  -- and, of

        15       course, I think that's quite clear where and

        16       when a civil action occurs.

        17                      If we're going to talk about

        18       civil actions, I think it might be of interest

        19       for you to know that in the situation, the

        20       tragic event that I discussed earlier with

        21       regard to Dawn Ravenell, her parents sued on a

        22       civil action and the award was over a million

        23       dollars.











                                                             
11085

         1                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

         2       President, if Senator Padavan will continue to

         3       yield?

         4                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  So, you know,

         5       in regard to the potential of civil actions, it

         6       falls both ways and the only major award that

         7       I'm aware of in this subject area was from a

         8       parent or parents suing an abortion clinic for

         9       having killed their daughter, so I'm not

        10       troubled by any language here.

        11                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        12       President, will Senator Padavan continue to

        13       yield?

        14                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       continues to yield.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  He got off

        18       the answer to the question.  Is it your

        19       intention in this bill that hospitals and health

        20       clinics themselves would be held accountable

        21       under the civil damage question, or just any

        22       person?

        23                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Well, it says











                                                             
11086

         1       "any person who intentionally performs an

         2       abortion."  I think it's clear.

         3                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Is it your

         4       intention to include hospitals and health

         5       clinics in there?

         6                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  I think the

         7       language here speaks for itself, Senator.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Okay.  Again,

         9       Mr. President, if Senator Padavan will continue

        10       to yield?

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

        13                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       yields.

        16                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Could you

        17       tell me how you calculate the damages in a civil

        18       action?

        19                      SENATOR PATERSON:  How I

        20       calculate it?

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  What are

        22       damages?

        23                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  No, Senator, I











                                                             
11087

         1       can't tell you how it's calculated any more than

         2       I can tell you why the Court awarded the

         3       Ravenell family a million dollars in that

         4       circumstance; and, therefore, I'm not certainly

         5       going to be in a position to tell you how much

         6       they would award and why under these

         7       circumstances; nor could I in any other civil

         8       action.

         9                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Through you,

        10       Mr. President, if Senator Padavan will continue

        11       to yield?

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

        14                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        16       Senator yields.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  The Ravenell

        18       case involved a death.  This is a civil action

        19       for civil liability based on the failure to

        20       notify the parent of the child's abortion.  What

        21       are the damages to the parent upon failing to be

        22       notified?

        23                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  What are the











                                                             
11088

         1       damages on the who?

         2                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Well, you're

         3       creating a civil liability for failure to

         4       provide notice.

         5                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  That would be

         6       in any civil liability, Senator.  That would be

         7       determined within the framework of the judicial

         8       process that dictates civil cases.  It's not

         9       something I can answer.

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Well, the

        11       answer is you don't know.

        12                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Nor do I really

        13       think you expect me to.

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  The answer is

        15       you don't know; right?

        16                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Well, do you?

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  I don't

        18       know.  I'm not the sponsor of the bill.

        19                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Do you know

        20       what the civil obligation or liability would be

        21       in any civil action permitted by law?

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Well, through

        23       you, Mr. President, if Senator Padavan will











                                                             
11089

         1       continue to yield?

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

         4                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         6       Senator yields.

         7                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Tell me:

         8       What are the damages sustained by the parent for

         9       the lack of notice?

        10                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator, the

        11       damages are to the parent, and I have heard you

        12       on many occasions refer to your family.  If

        13       someone were to do something to your child that

        14       you didn't know about that was harmful, you

        15       would not walk, you would run to the nearest

        16       place of legal jurisdiction to take out an

        17       action, if I measure you properly and I think I

        18       do.  And what would be the damages you would

        19       talk about and why?  You are a very competent

        20       attorney.  You answer that question for

        21       yourself.

        22                      We're talking about something

        23       happening here that has potential harm to a











                                                             
11090

         1       child, and the parents would certainly, with

         2       competent assistance, be able to make a judgment

         3       as to how they would proceed in a civil action.

         4                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Okay.  Just

         5       through you, Mr. President, one other question

         6       about the civil damage portion.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

         9                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator, I'm

        10       going to yield to one more question, because

        11       it's 20 after 1:00, and I think the President

        12       indicated -

        13                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  That's fine,

        14       Mr. President.  I'll ask one more question then,

        15       if the Senator will yield.

        16                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  It's more than

        17       an hour, so I'm going to indulge you one more

        18       time, and then we will go on.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Padavan will yield to one more question.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Okay.  It's

        22       unfortunate, because there is a lot in the

        23       procedure that is worthy of questions, but











                                                             
11091

         1       perhaps Senator Padavan doesn't want to deal

         2       with it.

         3                      Let me ask you this question.

         4       The judicial bypass provision in the Family

         5       Court bill is designed to bypass the notice;

         6       correct?

         7                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Correct.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  So the only

         9       purpose of the proceeding is to determine

        10       whether or not the parents should get notice or

        11       not; isn't that correct?

        12                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  The bypass

        13       provision, it's very clear.  You know, you are

        14       asking the question, but all you have to do is

        15       read it.  The answer is right there in front of

        16       you.  It tells you clearly -

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Is it

        18       designed -

        19                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  -- clearly when

        20       and how the bypass provision is applicable.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  But -

        22                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  It begins -

        23       it's Article 10(a).  It begins on page 3.











                                                             
11092

         1                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  But, through

         2       you, Mr. President.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator,

         4       do you continue to yield?

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  The purpose

         6       of judicial bypass -

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Dollinger, excuse me just a minute.

         9                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  -- is

        10       determined -

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Dollinger, excuse me just a minute.

        13                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  There is a

        14       carryover, apparently.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Padavan will continue to yield to this question.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  The judicial

        18       bypass provision is designed to determine

        19       whether or not you must give notice to the

        20       parents.  What they are doing is bypassing

        21       notice; isn't that correct?

        22                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  The bypass

        23       provision allows for a process to take place











                                                             
11093

         1       where notification need not occur, yes, and the

         2       procedure, chapter and verse, is in front of

         3       you.  Please read it.

         4                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Again through

         5       you, Mr. President.

         6                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  No more.

         7       That's it, Senator.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Dollinger.

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Fine.  Mr.

        11       President, I'M disappointed that Senator Padavan

        12       wouldn't allow me to ask additional questions,

        13       because this bill has a lot in it.  I know it's

        14       taken some time.  I appreciate Senator Padavan's

        15       cooperation.

        16                      But what I find so amazing about

        17       the judicial bypass provision is that it doesn't

        18       say -- it doesn't say it bypasses notice.  This

        19       isn't a judicial bypass provision.  This is a

        20       judicial provision that allows the court to make

        21       the decision as to whether or not it's in the

        22       best interest of the child.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator











                                                             
11094

         1       Dollinger, excuse me just a minute.

         2                      Senator Onorato, why do you

         3       rise?

         4                      SENATOR ONORATO:  Mr. President.

         5       I would like a clarification on a point of

         6       information.  You told us -- I understand you

         7       are going to invoke the two-hour rule on this

         8       bill, and I understand that you had, at the last

         9       count, 19 potential speakers.  I am wondering if

        10       you are going to allocate a time limit on each

        11       speaker so that they will all have an equal

        12       opportunity to speak on this bill?

        13                      If not, I don't know how we're

        14       going -- unless you are willing to go beyond the

        15       two-hour limit.  I think we ought to have a

        16       clarification on that before we allow each

        17       speaker to -- we have gone an hour and a half on

        18       the bill almost, and we've only had two people

        19       on it so far.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        21       Onorato, your point is very well taken about

        22       raising the issue.  I would just remind you that

        23       it is not the Chair's position to invoke any











                                                             
11095

         1       rule of the house.  Any member can do that.  I

         2       simply made the notation for your benefit

         3       knowing -- so that you would know that any

         4       member could rise after 2:00 p.m. this afternoon

         5       and object to continuing discussion.

         6                      I don't know what the rest of the

         7       60 members are going to be thinking about the

         8       length of this debate, but that is a rule of the

         9       house.  I do not have the authority as the Chair

        10       of this body, presiding officer, to invoke a

        11       time limit for members to speak.  It was merely

        12       my intention to remind the members because I

        13       know that they want to be most courteous and

        14       respectful of the requests of the other members

        15       of the house to give them an opportunity to

        16       speak on this issue which is an extremely

        17       emotional one and an important one and one that

        18       should be duly considered, and there are still

        19       13 members who have requested to speak on this

        20       bill.

        21                      Senator Dollinger -- so that is

        22       the point of information answer, Senator

        23       Onorato.











                                                             
11096

         1                      Senator Dollinger, you have the

         2       floor.

         3                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Consistent

         4       with your answer on this bill, Mr. President and

         5       my other colleagues, it wasn't my intention to

         6       tie up this time.  I will yield the floor and

         7       explain my vote.  I wish we had more time to do

         8       this, but -

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Abate is next on the list.

        11                      Senator Mendez, why do you rise?

        12                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Mr. President, I

        13       know it is a very difficult issue for me, but I

        14       must ask one question of Senator Padavan that is

        15       most crucial to my making up my mind on this

        16       issue.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  My only

        18       problem with that, Senator Mendez, is that you

        19       right now are about seventh or eighth on the

        20       list to take the floor.  There are six or seven

        21       other Senators anyway ahead of you who have

        22       requested to speak, so it would be entirely out

        23       of the normal practice for me to bypass these











                                                             
11097

         1       other seven Senators and give you the floor.

         2                      So with your permission, I would

         3       like to proceed with the list.  Senator Abate is

         4       next.  Then we have Senator Cook and Senator

         5       Oppenheimer, Senator Marchi, Senator Goodman,

         6       Senator Spano, Senator Maltese, Senator Saland

         7       and then you.  So if you could hold that

         8       question until your time, I would appreciate it.

         9                      Senator Abate, the floor is

        10       yours.

        11                      SENATOR ABATE:  On the bill.  I

        12       have listened very carefully to the debate, and

        13       I do not in any way question the good intentions

        14       of the sponsor, but I believe this legislation

        15       will produce unfortunate results not just to the

        16       young women but to their families, the medical

        17       profession and also to the judges and the system

        18       of the Family Court.

        19                      I speak in opposition to this

        20       bill not just as a legislator but as a parent of

        21       an adolescent and also someone who is many years

        22       beyond adolescence, but I can remember my years

        23       of adolescence as a young woman, and while











                                                             
11098

         1       everyone on this floor agrees that we need to

         2       encourage better communication between children

         3       and their families and that we want to foster

         4       good relationships between children and their

         5       families, but we have to understand that that

         6       communication, that bonding between a child and

         7       a parent comes about through many years of

         8       fostering a trusting, loving and supportive

         9       relationship, and no bill that we pass in this

        10       Legislature that mandates better communication,

        11       better love, better support, will produce that

        12       result.  Communication is learned at home.  It

        13       is built over time.  It cannot be improved

        14       through legislation.

        15                      I think we also have to look at

        16       an example.  Wisconsin does not have a

        17       notification bill and Minnesota has such a

        18       bill.  Similar populations, and there is a study

        19       done to look at which had better communication

        20       rates between children and their parents, and

        21       the state which does not have a notification

        22       bill has a higher rate of communication between

        23       the pregnant woman and her parent.  That should











                                                             
11099

         1       tell us something.

         2                      Obviously, as a parent, I very

         3       much would like my child to come to me.  But I

         4       know that as an adolescent, and I can remember

         5       that far back and I have a 16-year-old, that

         6       they are times of rebellion.  They are times of

         7       independence, and even though my child will come

         8       from a very functional relationship, she may not

         9       choose to share this relationship, this

        10       pregnancy with me.

        11                      The one thing I want as a parent,

        12       I want to make sure that my child feels free to

        13       go to a doctor, that my child has access to the

        14       best health care possible and that she does not

        15       jeopardize her well-being and health because

        16       she's afraid to come to me in the first place.

        17       That's what I want from my child.  I know in my

        18       relationship with my 16-year-old son, it takes

        19       years of getting them to be comfortable to talk

        20       to their parents.  I know that at the age of 14

        21       and 15 are the most difficult years, and those

        22       are the years where the child is going to be

        23       least likely to want to talk to their parents.











                                                             
11100

         1                      I would just like to read a

         2       letter from a ninth grader that I got from

         3       Hunter College High School.  It's amazing.  It's

         4       a very well written letter, and we may say this

         5       is such a sophisticated young woman, but I think

         6       it points out some of the problems young people

         7       have with this bill, and it also points out the

         8       problems with the bill.  She goes on to tell me

         9       why she opposes the bill.

        10                      She says, "The bill is among the

        11       most dangerous legislation which faces young

        12       women like myself.  It strips us of our rights

        13       by implying that we are not mentally capable of

        14       making important decisions on our own.  It also

        15       puts teenagers seeking abortions in very

        16       dangerous situations because many girls must

        17       face severely abusive parents who will beat them

        18       or throw them out if they're aware of the

        19       situation.  I myself have friends, for one

        20       reason or another, could never tell their

        21       parents if they got pregnant.  Family

        22       communication cannot be forced and a situation

        23       like this will certainly do nothing to draw a











                                                             
11101

         1       family together.

         2                      "In addition, this bill will

         3       scare younger women away from safe, licensed

         4       health care facilities and into dangerous and

         5       unsanitary back alleys where abortions are

         6       deadly.  Especially for young women who are not

         7       ready financially or emotionally to have a

         8       child, it is crucial we be allowed to make a

         9       decision not to bear a child.  If you think that

        10       we're not ready to make a decision on our own

        11       we're certainly not ready to raise children."

        12                      So this young woman points out

        13       that there are many reasons a child will not

        14       talk to her parent.  She may not want to

        15       disappoint her parent, may not want to hurt the

        16       parent -- I'm talking about functional

        17       environments -- may not want to face their

        18       anger.

        19                      And let's not ignore that many

        20       young women come from dysfunctional families,

        21       from hostile environments either from drugs or

        22       alcohol, or from abusive family situations.

        23       These statistics were heard earlier today, but











                                                             
11102

         1       they bear being repeated.  Keep in mind pregnant

         2       women under 14, of that category, 74 percent are

         3       victims of incest or rape.  Over 60 percent of

         4       these young pregnant women who are under 15 are

         5       victims of incest or rape.

         6                      So what we need to do is, as a

         7       society, hope that young people -- and the

         8       statistics show that most young people will

         9       speak with their families, but they won't speak

        10       with two sets of parents.  They will only

        11       usually speak with their mother.  That is the

        12       reality.  This is a very emotional situation.

        13       If it is emotional for us on this floor and it's

        14       sensitive to us on this floor and many of us are

        15       well over the age of 16, you can imagine what

        16       it's like for an adolescent young woman who is

        17       struggling with a very dramatic decision,

        18       getting used to the idea that she's becoming an

        19       adult.  Obviously, there is going to be

        20       tremendous fear about facing their parent around

        21       this issue.

        22                      I think there's another issue

        23       that has not been raised today, and I believe











                                                             
11103

         1       that parental notification will jeopardize in

         2       some cases a young woman's health because it

         3       will increase the delays if she does, in fact,

         4       want to seek an abortion.

         5                      First, the young woman has to

         6       realize she's pregnant.  Many women are not

         7       aware at this age what it means to be pregnant,

         8       and she will maybe go through denial a number of

         9       months, hope that her menstruation is late; and

        10       the longer she delays, obviously, she puts her

        11       health at risk.  She will maybe delay it knowing

        12       that she has to talk to her parents because she

        13       won't have the courage.  That will be another

        14       factor for the delay; and then if she finds out

        15        -- and I think it will be very difficult,

        16       because this is a young woman who is afraid to

        17       face her family, she's going to be even more

        18       afraid to go into Family Court.

        19                      But let's say she does decide to

        20       go into Family Court.  The delays in the

        21       decision could also cause another 39 days.  If

        22       she decides, and she's wealthy or she can borrow

        23       the money, that she doesn't want to go into











                                                             
11104

         1       Family Court and she cannot talk to her parents,

         2       she will seek an abortion in a number of ways.

         3       If she can afford it, she will go to another

         4       state and travel.  If she cannot afford it, and

         5       that will be the case with many women, she will

         6       seek an illegal abortion, and we know what that

         7       does.  We've seen a history of young women being

         8       harmed, not able to bear children in the future

         9       and people dying because of illegal abortions.

        10                      Let me state again, as a parent,

        11       what I want ultimately is to develop a

        12       relationship where my child feels comfortable in

        13       talking with me, and I know that no legislation

        14       will produce that kind of communication, and the

        15       most important thing is I would not want my

        16       young daughter, because she's afraid to talk to

        17       me or she's afraid to go to the Family Court, to

        18       not get good health care and seek an unsafe

        19       abortion.

        20                      Now, let's ask ourselves, why do

        21       so many of these groups oppose this bill, the

        22       American Academy of Pediatrics, the American

        23       College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists,











                                                             
11105

         1       Family Planning Advocates, the Medical Society

         2       of New York, the National Association of Social

         3       Workers, the Nurses Association, New York State

         4       Public Health Association, Planned Parenthood?

         5                      I think there is a reason.  They

         6       are concerned about the health of the young

         7       woman, but I think they are also concerned that

         8       we are now talking about doctors being

         9       prosecuted and facing criminal charges and the

        10       ultimate result, are we driving women away from

        11       health care and also are we creating a

        12       disincentive for doctors to being involved in

        13       this field altogether?  Will doctors want to be

        14       involved in family planning and prenatal care

        15       and gynecological services because now they are

        16       going to be facing criminal prosecution?

        17                      I mean doctors complain all the

        18       time about malpractice and high insurance.  Are

        19       we now going to put a chilling effect -- which I

        20       think not only is this an anti-choice bill but

        21       it's an anti-medical care bill because we are

        22       putting young women at risk and now saying to

        23       the doctors, "Let's think twice before we even











                                                             
11106

         1       want to get involved in this field."

         2                      I do not believe judicial bypass

         3       will work.  The judges, the Women's Bar

         4       Association and the Association of Judges of the

         5       Family Court said that this won't make any

         6       sense, particularly in Family Court where the

         7       dockets are already overcongested.  They do not

         8       have the resources in an emergency way to take

         9       on these cases, and the Association of Judges of

        10       the Family Court correctly suggested the

        11       decision whether a minor is mature enough to

        12       decide whether to carry a pregnancy to term is

        13       one best left to the pregnant young woman and

        14       the physician to whom she has entrusted her care

        15       rather than to a judge unfamiliar with her

        16       situation.

        17                      And let's not forget that many of

        18       these family courts are not anonymous courts.

        19       If you go into small communities and rural

        20       communities, we're saying to that young woman,

        21       "Okay, you may not have the courage to face

        22       your parents but go into a public setting and

        23       risk confidentiality and risk the fact that you











                                                             
11107

         1       may be pregnant and go into Family Court" -

         2       this is an open setting -- "and declare to the

         3       world what your situation is."  It's unrealistic

         4       for the 14- and 15-year-old to say, "I won't

         5       talk to my parents but I will go to Family

         6       Court."

         7                      It will create delays.  It will

         8       be a great deal of cost.  The judges will be put

         9       in a very difficult situation.  Will they have

        10       enough information at hand to make this

        11       decision?

        12                      A week ago, we debated a bill

        13       around the Juvenile Offender Law, and many

        14       people stood up and said 12- and 13- and

        15       14-year-olds should be held responsible for

        16       their actions.  If they commit criminal acts,

        17       they should be treated as adults.  Now, we have

        18       a double standard.  We're saying that young

        19       women with the advice of their physicians can't

        20       consent to an abortion without notifying their

        21       parents and, on the other hand, two weeks ago,

        22       we said, "Let's make sure these young people" -

        23       and we're not talking about 14- and











                                                             
11108

         1       15-year-olds; we were talking about 11-, 12- and

         2       13-year-olds -- "Let's treat them as adults

         3       because they are responsible human beings."

         4       There's inconsistency with that argument.

         5                      So, in conclusion, I understand

         6       that this is an emotional issue, and I think

         7       there are a lot of good intentions because many

         8       of us are reacting to this bill as parents

         9       because we want to be involved in our children's

        10       decisions, that we do not want our children to

        11       make a decision at 14 and 15 that they will

        12       regret later on in their lives.

        13                      If I thought for an instant that

        14       would produce and this legislation would produce

        15       the kind of family relationships we would all

        16       like to see in an ideal world, I might consider

        17       this.  We need to put foremost in our agenda

        18       protecting the health of that young woman,

        19       making sure she seeks a healthy relationship

        20       with her physician, that she does not seek an

        21       illegal abortion.

        22                      And let's not overburden a Family

        23       Court and doctors who are already trying to











                                                             
11109

         1       provide decent health care.  Let's not over

         2       burden those systems with a piece of legislation

         3       that may look good to some but, in fact, is

         4       really anti-choice and will produce terrible

         5       results for so many people.

         6                      Thank you.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Cook.

         9                      SENATOR COOK:  Mr. President.

        10       Everyone who has spoken deserves to be

        11       complimented on the high level of this debate,

        12       and I hope that I might be forgiven if I break

        13       the spirit a bit, but I do think that time has

        14       come for a bit of candor because this is not a

        15       bill about parents' rights.  It's a bill about

        16       stopping abortions.

        17                      It's a bill about using the state

        18       as a weapon whereby parents can punish children

        19       who disobey their wishes.  It's about forcing

        20       13-, 14-, 15-year-old girls to bear the

        21       consequences of their acts by forcing them to

        22       carry to term pregnancies to teach them a lesson

        23       that sin doesn't pay.











                                                             
11110

         1                      Unfortunately, the bill won't

         2       work on any of these counts.  This bill would

         3       really prevent abortions, and I might be tempted

         4       and other people might be tempted to vote for

         5       it.  If the bill would really force children to

         6       talk to their parents, I might be tempted to

         7       vote for it, but the bill won't do either.

         8                      It is interesting to note that

         9       when you read this bill, you go through the

        10       entire first half of the bill, and they never

        11       talk about the person who is involved.  They

        12       never talk about the girl.  They talk about the

        13       physician.  They talk about what procedures you

        14       are going to use to get this notification out.

        15       They talk about the parents.  They never talk

        16       about the girl.

        17                      The girl's the one who's

        18       pregnant.  The girl's the one who's got this

        19       problem that she's got to deal with, not the

        20       parents, not the doctor.  Why don't we focus on

        21       the girl, on the problem that she's trying to

        22       deal with?

        23                      This is not about a girl who can











                                                             
11111

         1       talk to her parents about alternatives.  If she

         2       were in that kind of a family situation, then

         3       there would be no need for the state to

         4       intervene and to force that discussion to take

         5       place.  If that relationship of trust really

         6       exists, the first person that the girl would go

         7       to would be her parents.  No, on the contrary,

         8       this bill attempts to force by the power of the

         9       state a relationship that can only exist within

        10       a family if it's been nurtured since the time of

        11       birth.

        12                      The girl who trusts her parents

        13       and knows that they will always be there will go

        14       to them when she needs them.  If she knows that

        15       they are the kind of parents who will be

        16       sensitive to her needs and to her problems, more

        17       than whether or not she's obeyed the rules, then

        18       she's going to go to those parents.  She's going

        19       to go to them and seek their guidance and their

        20       counsel.

        21                      What this bill is about is the

        22       13- to 14- to 15-year-old girl caught in

        23       desperation between an unwanted pregnancy,











                                                             
11112

         1       facing parents who she knows will never consent

         2       or support her in an abortion.  That desperate

         3       girl will, if this bill is passed, have only one

         4       option, an illegal or a self-induced abortion.

         5                      Laws legalizing abortion were not

         6       passed as a moral judgment.  They were not

         7       passed to prevent girls and women -- I'm sorry.

         8       They were passed to prevent girls and women from

         9       dying as a result of unsupervised and

        10       unregulated abortions.  This bill forces young

        11       teenage girls back to those bad old days when

        12       they only had the back room abortionist at their

        13       disposal.

        14                      This bill will be a boon to the

        15       black market.  The abortion pill was not around

        16       when abortion used to be illegal.  That pill

        17       will now be available on street corners for a

        18       few hundred dollars.  Those pills are supposed

        19       to be administered in a clinic in three

        20       successive visits.  Desperate young girls may

        21       well assume that they can buy those pills and

        22       take them all at once and subject themselves to

        23       some very grave consequences.











                                                             
11113

         1                      This is the new health dimension

         2       that's been added since abortion was first

         3       legalized, and it does not remove the prospect

         4       of all the other old, crude means of

         5       self-induced abortion that have been used

         6       through the years.

         7                      Mr. President, the irony of this

         8       bill is that, if it were passed, the most likely

         9       and tragic result perhaps would fall upon some

        10       parent who today is probably a fervent proponent

        11       of this bill.  In the mistaken expectation that

        12       by changing the law they will take away the

        13       desperation that causes a girl to seek an

        14       abortion, they are forcing their own daughters

        15       into the very situation where those daughters

        16       will seek an abortion by some unsafe method.

        17                      I will cry with them when that

        18       tragedy strikes their daughter, but I will not

        19       be able to take away from them the feeling of

        20       guilt that they will carry that, by trying to

        21       use the law as a weapon to discipline their

        22       daughter, they have brought their daughter, whom

        23       they love, into pain and to suffering and











                                                             
11114

         1       perhaps even death that will happen when she

         2       makes a desperate decision to have an abortion

         3       outside the protection of regulation that is

         4       provided by law for a safe procedure.

         5                      It's been said that the road to

         6       hell is paved with good intentions.  I only hope

         7       that no one within the sound of my voice will

         8       have to endure the hell of knowing that their

         9       efforts have contributed to the death of someone

        10       that they love.

        11                      Thank you.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Chair

        13       recognizes Senator Oppenheimer.

        14                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Thank you.

        15                      Thank you, Senator Cook.  Now I

        16       know why I admire you so much, Senator Cook.

        17                      I'm going to try and cut down

        18       what I want to say to just three or four minutes

        19       because I know we are pretty pressured, so I'm

        20       just going to list a few of the things that are

        21       problematic to me, and then I want to spend a

        22       couple of minutes talking about what the

        23       experience has been and what the judges say in











                                                             
11115

         1       Minnesota and Massachusetts where the parental

         2       consent judicial waiver has been in effect since

         3       1981.

         4                      Problems that I have:  I agree

         5       with Senator Cook.  I think all these laws that

         6       have been drafted concerning parental

         7       notification have been drafted by anti-choice

         8       people, and their intent truly is to end

         9       abortion if they could, but, of course, it's the

        10       law of the land and so they can't.  But it seems

        11       that these very people, while they cannot change

        12       the law of the land, seem intent on depriving

        13       the free choice to young citizens and to poor

        14       citizens.

        15                      And, in the bill, I would say

        16       that the legislation requiring that both

        17       biological parents be notified is unrealistic

        18       and grossly inappropriate considering today's

        19       society, and, indeed, would probably preclude

        20       the option to the young person to get the

        21       notification to both, since invariably one or

        22       the other is not available.

        23                      There is no exception in this











                                                             
11116

         1       bill for cases of incest or family violence or

         2       children in foster care or children living in

         3       dysfunctional families.

         4                      There seems to be an assumption

         5       that teenagers are going around willy-nilly

         6       getting abortions.  The fact is that we know

         7       that children under the age of 16, for the most

         8       part, maybe 80 percent of them, do contact one

         9       parent, so that the vast majority of unmarried

        10       teens do tell a parent.

        11                      In many cases, as has been

        12       mentioned, sexual abuse is involved with these

        13       youngsters.  The fact is that 74 percent of the

        14       women who have had intercourse before the age of

        15       14 have had it through involuntary sex, and it's

        16       a little bit less -- it's 60 percent for those

        17       15 and younger.  So this is not a choice that

        18       they have made with their knowledge willingly.

        19       It has all been involuntarily.

        20                      Another fact that we should note

        21       is that -- and why we should be doing everything

        22       to help these teens who choose not to become

        23       parents because they feel that they are too











                                                             
11117

         1       immature or too poor or, for a variety of

         2       reasons, feel that they are not in a position to

         3       accept parenthood -- we should note a University

         4       of Utah study that has recently been concluded

         5       which involved 130,000 pregnant teens.

         6                      Actually, they were mostly from

         7       middle-class white families, and there was a

         8       very interesting determination made because many

         9       felt that one of the reasons that these young

        10       teens had babies that were born premature or of

        11       low birth weight or having various problems,

        12       medical problems, it was thought that possibly

        13       that was due to the fact that these youngsters

        14       who were bearing the children were poor, had no

        15       medical care, a variety of reasons usually

        16       involving poverty.  This study was done on

        17       youngsters who were, for the most part, white

        18       and of middle income or higher circumstances in

        19       life, and it was found that the children were

        20       still being born premature and still being born

        21       of low birth weight, and what was concluded in

        22       this study was that -- and it was a pretty broad

        23       study of 130,000 young women.











                                                             
11118

         1                      What was concluded was it really

         2       was the nature of the age of the young woman

         3       rather than her socioeconomic status.  It was

         4       felt that the young woman's body was maturing

         5       and was still growing and due to the fact that

         6       her bones were developing and the calcium was

         7       needed for her body, as well as other factors

         8       involved in maturation, that it was being

         9       deprived to the infant, to the fetus; and for

        10       that reason it was quite an interesting study.

        11       It was just completed, and it shows what we all

        12       know, that really youngsters who are more like

        13       babies should not be having babies because they

        14       are simply experiencing at that age a maturation

        15       of their own bodies.

        16                      Certainly we all believe that

        17       parental involvement should be encouraged.  But

        18       in families where there's violence or incest or

        19       alcoholism or drug abuse, it is simply more

        20       harmful to all to involve the parents.

        21                      Very often, the child feels that

        22       she would do an irreparable harm to her parents

        23       if the parents knew and, therefore, out of











                                                             
11119

         1       filial obligations, she feels she can not tell

         2       her parents, and that's why these -- these laws

         3       are so harmful.  They turn the vulnerable,

         4       pregnant young woman away from the very medical

         5       help and assistance, the professionals, that

         6       should be there to assist her, and this fact was

         7       recognized by the New York State Legislature in

         8       past years when there were laws enacted to

         9       remove the barriers to timely treatment of

        10       minors who had sexually transmissible diseases,

        11       needed HIV testing or a plan to carry a

        12       pregnancy to term.

        13                      In all three circumstances,

        14       Public Health Law allows minors to consent for

        15       their own health care in these circumstances

        16       with no parental notification, and that, we have

        17       found, avoids the harmful delays which this law

        18       would produce.

        19                      Now, let me turn, just for

        20       another minute, to these two states that do have

        21       the judicial waiver.  It's been found that these

        22       laws have not discouraged sexual activity in

        23       Massachusetts or Minnesota, which have a long











                                                             
11120

         1       history.  It's like fifteen years now with this

         2       law, and that that only increased the number of

         3       late abortions.  Those abortions, of course,

         4       were carried out in neighboring states, where

         5       there were no parental consent laws.

         6                      Research comparing Minnesota with

         7       Wisconsin -- and Wisconsin doesn't have a

         8       restrictive law -- showed that pregnant teens in

         9       both states notified their parents at exactly

        10       the same rate.  Minnesota's law, therefore, did

        11       not increase parental notification and, of

        12       course, as many of us are aware, you can not

        13       legislate communication between children and

        14       parents.  It's something that has to be

        15       developed at a young age and through a very

        16       supportive environment within the family

        17       proper.

        18                      Let me turn just for a moment to

        19       what the judges have said, and these are the

        20       people who are the most knowledgeable.  Of

        21       course, they have been hearing these cases now

        22       in Minnesota and Massachusetts for the last

        23       fifteen years.











                                                             
11121

         1                      Let's see.  Minnesota state court

         2       judge Alan Oleski has heard over 1,000 parental

         3       notification petitions.  He characterized his

         4       function, quote, "like a routine clerical

         5       function on my part, just like putting my seal

         6       and stamp on it."  He stated that minors were

         7       subjected to stress by the court procedure;

         8       moreover, he believed that the statute dissuaded

         9       some minors from having abortions because they

        10       feared going to court in a distant city.

        11                      Another judge named Gerald Martin

        12       stated that he did not, quote, "perceive any

        13       useful public purpose in what I am doing in

        14       these cases."

        15                      Another judge, Judge Garrity, who

        16       had adjudicated the same type of bypass

        17       petitions in Massachusetts testified that these

        18       laws accomplish nothing.  Quote, "It just gives

        19       these kids a rough time.  I can't think it

        20       accomplishes a darn thing.  I think it basically

        21       erects another barrier to abortion."

        22                      Similarly, public defenders

        23       testified the law served no beneficial purpose











                                                             
11122

         1       for youngsters.  It just created an additional

         2       hurdle.

         3                      The guardians ad litem did not

         4       even know what purpose they served in the

         5       process.

         6                      It was the unanimous opinion of

         7       health professionals who work with minors in

         8       Minnesota that the law did not and could not

         9       serve its purported purposes of promoting family

        10       communication, helping decision-making of minors

        11       and helping with medical treatment.

        12                      Dr. Hogson concluded, and he was,

        13       of course, the person who brought the case, "I

        14       honestly think there is no benefit whatsoever."

        15       The law created nothing but problems for her

        16       teenage patients.

        17                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Farley, why do you rise?

        20                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  I'm about

        21       to finish.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Excuse

        23       me, Senator Oppenheimer.











                                                             
11123

         1                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Could I ask

         2       Senator Oppenheimer a question?  There's about

         3       seven or eight people that would like to speak

         4       to this bill who are not going to have the

         5       opportunity to do it.  They will probably have

         6       to explain their votes because there's probably

         7       going to be a request that the two-hour limit be

         8       invoked.

         9                      You know, I would ask that you'd

        10       kind of summarize what you are going to say

        11       because I know I'm not going to be able to speak

        12       to the bill.  I'm going to have to only explain

        13       my vote, and I would appreciate a little

        14       courtesy.

        15                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Okay.  I

        16       have -

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Oppenheimer, excuse me just a minute.

        19                      Senator Stachowski, why do you

        20       rise?

        21                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Mr.

        22       President, I understand Senator Farley's point

        23       to Senator Oppenheimer.  However, I might remind











                                                             
11124

         1       you that the two-hour rule on the Senate rules

         2       is merely that you can ask for the debate to end

         3       at two hours.  It's not necessarily the rule

         4       that the debate automatically ends at two hours.

         5                      SENATOR FARLEY:  That's true.

         6       It's going to be asked for, though.

         7                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  If the

         8       Majority Leader wants to let his members speak

         9       on this bill, that's the Majority Leader's

        10       prerogative, and that's not really Senator

        11       Oppenheimer's part one way or another.

        12                      So if Senator Farley has a

        13       problem with not being able to speak, I mean he

        14       should take that up with the Majority Leader on

        15       this particular issue, since there doesn't seem

        16       to be a whole lot more on this calendar.  Then

        17       it wouldn't be a major problem to let each of

        18       these members speak on this bill, since it is a

        19       rather emotionally-driven and important issue to

        20       the various members who choose to stand up and

        21       speak on it.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Thank

        23       you, Senator Stachowski.











                                                             
11125

         1                      Senator Oppenheimer, you have the

         2       floor.

         3                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  I will be

         4       happy to wrap this up.

         5                      Although the judicial bypass is

         6       supposed to be confidential, I would like to

         7       note that in Minnesota, teenagers who went to

         8       court to get permission for an abortion had to

         9       deal with as many as 23 strangers who knew their

        10       first names and knew why they were there, and in

        11       Massachusetts the judicial bypass process

        12       delayed the abortions of teenagers who had to

        13       use it by an average of -- well, the range went

        14       up to 39 days, and that made the abortions much

        15       more medically concerning.

        16                      It was found -- and I will say

        17       this in conclusion -- that many of the pregnant

        18       teens who did find it impossible to involve

        19       their parents, they had -- it was found in the

        20       courts in both states that they really had

        21       substantial reasons, and they were sustained in

        22       most every instance because they simply could

        23       not tell a mentally ill mother or a drug abusing











                                                             
11126

         1       father of their condition, so their cases were

         2       sustained.

         3                      So I think this is the wrong

         4       direction to be going and tells the youngsters

         5       in our state that we really don't care about

         6       their health and their well-being; and that when

         7       they say they are too young and immature to

         8       handle this, that we don't believe that they

         9       know that they are immature, even though we say

        10       they are immature.

        11                      Thank you.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        13       recognizes Senator Marchi.

        14                      SENATOR MARCHI:  Mr. President, I

        15       will be brief.  I will not yield to questions in

        16       the interest of saving time, but it is an

        17       important issue that we are addressing.  I don't

        18       think there are very many more important issues

        19       that we will face in the year 1995 than this

        20       issue.

        21                      I don't accept some of the

        22       characterizations and determinations that we've

        23       made on the attitude of the average family when











                                                             
11127

         1       faced with this situation.  I believe that we

         2       tend to go to dramatic extremes in defense of a

         3       policy which shields a child with the protection

         4       of a family.  If you're going to have an

         5       aspirin, if you're going to have any kind of

         6       procedure performed, this is law in the state of

         7       New York.

         8                      Yet we say that there's something

         9       special about this circumstance that should

        10       impede and raise the law of separation between

        11       that child and their parents.  If the family is

        12       not dysfunctional, it is an important consider

        13       ation.  As a parent, as a grandfather of

        14       daughters and as a father of daughters, I would

        15       never -- and they're all past the age of 16, I

        16       would never have wanted to be in a situation

        17       where I didn't know because the law and the

        18       public policy of this state prevented me from

        19       knowing, not from my own child who may have been

        20       confused and sorely beset by the circumstances,

        21       but by public policy which precludes the doctor

        22       from telling me so, so that I can be of help.

        23       To preclude us from helping in those situations











                                                             
11128

         1       is an anomaly, I think, when we -- when we

         2       consider all of the facts that we use to protect

         3       children.

         4                      I have here the Domestic

         5       Relations Law:  If it shall appear upon the

         6       application of applicants as provided in this

         7       section -- and this is applicants to become

         8       married -- that either party is at least 16

         9       years of age but under 18 years, the clerk shall

        10       not issue the license unless there is a written

        11       permission from both parents.

        12                      Five years ago we took off again,

        13       if the child is under 16, if under the age 16

        14       years the town or county clerk shall require, in

        15       addition to any consent the written approval of

        16       the consent of a justice of the Supreme Court or

        17       the Family Court.

        18                      So that there is nothing -- there

        19       is nothing un-American or unusual to have the

        20       family participate and be -- and exercise its

        21       responsibility with reference to their

        22       children.  If all of those ugly things, the back

        23       door illegal abortions are being performed as a











                                                             
11129

         1       result of, or would be the result if this law

         2       was enacted, I invite your attention to the fact

         3       that there are over 30 states that do this

         4       already and the air is not redolent nor do we

         5       have any great spate of information coming with

         6       bills of particulars about the outrageous

         7       circumstances that are besetting people living

         8       in the great majority of the areas of this

         9       country.

        10                      They live with this law.  They're

        11       not having back door and illegal abortions as a

        12       result, and to assume otherwise, I think, is to

        13       weigh the scales very heavily against the

        14       family, against -- who are the primary guaran

        15       tors unless they are utterly dysfunctional, of

        16       the welfare of their children.

        17                      I would recommend a vote that's

        18       consistent with everything that we do with

        19       respect to being protective of our children,

        20       including the age in which a lot of things take

        21       place, voting and drinking and going to war and

        22       whatever.  This is even more sacrosanct.  It

        23       involves their life, their very lives, and no











                                                             
11130

         1       one cares more about the lives of those

         2       children, no bureaucrat cares more, no doctor

         3       cares more than the parent.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Goodman.

         6                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr. President,

         7       this has been a far-reaching multi-faceted

         8       debate and most of the technical aspects of this

         9       have been discussed in full, but I would like to

        10       share with you what I regard as the critical

        11       problem relating to this bill.

        12                      It can be summed up, my good

        13       friends, in two sentences.

        14                      Sentence number 1:  "If my father

        15       knew, he would kill me."

        16                      Sentence number 2:  "If I tell my

        17       father, it may kill him."

        18                      In those two sentences we have a

        19       simple summation of the reaction of a young

        20       woman who finds herself with an unwanted

        21       pregnancy, who is reluctant because she may have

        22       been abused by her parents, she may be the

        23       victim of incest.  She may be the victim of











                                                             
11131

         1       parental rape, or she may have a father with a

         2       heart condition or a sensitive parent whom she

         3       dreads the prospect of sharing this sad news

         4       with, and, Mr. President, whichever the case may

         5       be, we find the fundamental defect in this

         6       bill.

         7                      Now, let me just say I have the

         8       deepest respect for the sincerity of those on

         9       the other side of this question.  It seems

        10       manifest that any parent would want to know if a

        11       child underwent -- underwent an abortion and,

        12       Senator Marchi, with his usual passion and

        13       luminous debating skill, made clear what the

        14       issue is here.

        15                      But I respectfully submit to you,

        16       my colleagues, that what we are talking about

        17       here is, in no sense, a normal family

        18       situation.  We're talking about a possible -

        19       about a possible eight to ten percent of the

        20       children who are pregnant, not the normal

        21       American home which we see happily depicted in

        22       Walt Disney movies, not the wonderful loving

        23       interrelationship between parents who undergo











                                                             
11132

         1       crises with their children.

         2                      We are speaking of homes in which

         3       there is a situation of social pathology.  We

         4       are speaking of homes in a situation where a

         5       child does not either have any identifiable

         6       parent or may only have one parent or may have

         7       one adult parent so sociologically ill that they

         8       are incapable of rational discourse with their

         9       child about this very personal problem.

        10                      It is these people who seek to go

        11       outside the scope of parental guidance and

        12       judgment to shift for themselves forcibly.  They

        13       don't want to do it; they have to do it.  Mr.

        14       President, just stop and think for a moment.

        15       It's very hard for us to identify with these

        16       people because, thank God, most of us come from

        17       fairly normal homes, but there are people who

        18       live in circumstances not only related to

        19       poverty but emotional poverty, if you will, who

        20       simply cannot communicate in the normal fashion

        21       and it is with these people that we must

        22       identify for purposes of understanding the true

        23       implications of this legislation.











                                                             
11133

         1                      Mr. President, I would also like

         2       to dwell very briefly upon the obvious fact that

         3       the assurances we're given that judicial

         4       intervention will cover the situation as being

         5       grossly inadequate.  I read you briefly from a

         6       memorandum of the Women's Bar Association of the

         7       state of New York.  To obtain a judicial order,

         8       a pregnant mother would have to appear

         9       personally in Family Court and establish that

        10       she is mature or that the requested abortion

        11       would be in her best interests.

        12                      The bill does not permit the

        13       Family Court judge to rule expeditiously from

        14       the bench but, instead, requires preparation of

        15       an order with written and specific factual

        16       findings and legal conclusions supporting the

        17       decision.

        18                      The bill fixes no deadline for

        19       completion of the written opinion and

        20       establishes no procedure whereby the minor would

        21       be notified confidentially that the order had

        22       been filed.

        23                      Senator Abate very adequately











                                                             
11134

         1       described the plight of a young woman who must

         2       go into a town Family Court to discuss this

         3       problem.  The degree of public scrutiny to which

         4       this is exposed renders it almost impossible for

         5       any emotionally sensitive child to be able, if

         6       not willing, to go into a court under these

         7       circumstances.

         8                      The court also offers no remedy

         9       whatsoever.  It is simply a fiction that any

        10       youngster below the age of 16 has the capacity

        11       to undertake complex litigation.  What is this

        12       child, a Philadelphia lawyer imbued with some

        13       rare capacity to handle things which even adults

        14       find mystifying and confusing?  This is patently

        15       preposterous.

        16                      I would also bring to your

        17       attention a very technical memorandum from Judge

        18       Leo Milonas, the Chief Administrative Court

        19       Judge, who points out that there are numerous

        20       defects in this matter in that there are no

        21       adequate spellings out of the type of proof that

        22       must be offered.  I won't burden you with all

        23       the details of this, but I'd simply say to you











                                                             
11135

         1       that it is evident from all of the judicial

         2       authority, the Family Court experts, the Family

         3       Court judges themselves, that the court option

         4       is no option at all.

         5                      This brings us back to the

         6       fundamental question:  What about the parent and

         7       child?  How easy it is to superficially consider

         8       that any child would, of course, if he's going

         9       to consult a parent about a toothache or about a

        10       fractured limb, would obviously have the same

        11       relationship with respect to an abortion.

        12                      But, if we stop to think about

        13       this for a moment, this, too, is an absolute

        14       fiction.  It's inoperative.  It doesn't work

        15       that way in the families where the youngster and

        16       the parents are already set apart by innumerable

        17       social forces which prevent any realistic degree

        18       of communication.  This is simply absurd.  It

        19       doesn't happen.

        20                      What is the child to do? The

        21       father may have committed incest, as I've said,

        22       or there may indeed have been violence visited

        23       on the child or, even more pertinent in this











                                                             
11136

         1       case, the fear of violence.

         2                      Now, Senator Padavan, you have

         3       outlined this with your usual debating skill and

         4       to take the pure -- puristic approach which you

         5       have posited before us makes this seem a very

         6       simple matter because one would simply say, of

         7       course, parents must know, have a right to know

         8       and, in all probability, would be sympathetic

         9       and good and helpful to the child, but in many

        10       families the parent is the enemy of the child

        11       and that's the sad social truth which we have

        12       failed to grasp in this discussion.  The parent

        13       is the enemy of its own offspring.

        14                      How is this possible? Well, it's

        15       possible because, in the first place, the child

        16       itself now grown to sufficient maturity to bear

        17       its own child may have been unwanted and may be

        18       resented from birth, or it may be that there are

        19       certain economic circumstances which make the

        20       relationship of the child intolerable to the

        21       parent or perhaps the child has psychological

        22       problems of its own and has acted out and has

        23       caused the parent grief, whether due to failure











                                                             
11137

         1       in school or due to inac... certain types of

         2       inactivity or hyperactivity in his social

         3       pathology spread all across the map on this, but

         4       it's not evident to a group of people who wear

         5       suits and neckties and sit in the most beautiful

         6       chamber in the world to discuss these matters.

         7       We are above the smoke of battle.  We are not

         8       able to be imbued with the perception which

         9       permits us to place ourselves in the position of

        10       the people most in need of our comprehension of

        11       their difficulty.

        12                      Mr. President, let's be very

        13       practical about what's going on here.  This is a

        14       one-house bill.  This bill will not pass in the

        15       Assembly.  The Speaker has made it clear that he

        16       will not permit this bill to come to the floor

        17       of the Assembly, so we know that what we're

        18       indulging in today is essentially an exercise in

        19       futility, but it has its uses because it does

        20       permit us in, I think, a most mature, perhaps

        21       lucid, fashion in this debate to once again

        22       bring forward some of the more abstruse aspects

        23       of this problem.











                                                             
11138

         1                      I respectfully submit to you, Mr.

         2       President, and to everyone within the sound of

         3       my voice that the proper answer to this is for

         4       us to try to achieve that degree of maturity

         5       within ourselves which permits us to understand

         6       and identify with the difficulties which a

         7       minority of our population suffer from in this

         8       regard.

         9                      To the child who can't

        10       communicate with the parent, to the child who

        11       says, "My father would kill me if he knew," or

        12       to the child who says, "This would kill my

        13       father or mother if he or she knew," we must

        14       lend sympathetic understanding, and it's on that

        15       simple proposition that I urge the house to re

        16       consider and to defeat this ill-advised motion.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        18       would note that Senator Spano is next on the

        19       list, but he elected not to speak.  Also

        20       Senators Montgomery and Mendez have removed

        21       their names from those wishing to speak at this

        22       time.

        23                      Senator Maltese.











                                                             
11139

         1                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Mr. President,

         2       I'll be brief and not take advantage of the

         3       opportunity to explain my vote at that time.

         4                      I think I've listened to all the

         5       debate and have listened to my colleagues on

         6       both sides of this issue.  I share the belief of

         7        -- expressed by my good colleague, Senator

         8       Goodman, that in some cases there are members of

         9       this chamber who are in some type of a

        10       cloistered or ivory tower, but I feel it is

        11       those who are on the other side of this issue.

        12       I do not believe that we give aid and comfort to

        13       society as a whole or individuals in difficult

        14       situations by taking either the path of least

        15       resistance or perhaps retreating behind the

        16       argument that this is an exercise in futility

        17       since it appears to be a one-house vote -- a

        18       one-house bill.  That has not prevented us in

        19       the past from taking positions on issues of

        20       conscience or morality or even of good

        21       government.

        22                      This is a simple matter.  It is a

        23       matter that rises or falls on the question of











                                                             
11140

         1       whether children of 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 up to

         2       16 can have the maturity of judgment to

         3       undertake a procedure which will have a -- with

         4       all reports, and experts indicate that they will

         5       have psychological, mental and physical problems

         6       in the future.  This is a very difficult

         7       decision, and when does it take place? It takes

         8       place under conditions of all types of stress,

         9       the conditions that members on both sides of the

        10       aisle have enumerated.  This is not a value

        11       judgment made after due deliberation in

        12       solitude.  This is a decision made under

        13       pressure, and who better than parents are in a

        14       position to offer advice, counsel and the

        15       benefit of their judgment?

        16                      Yes, there are dysfunctional

        17       families.  Yes, there are parents who have

        18       caused many of these evils and who have taken

        19       tragic advantage of their own children, but

        20       fortunately those are still few and far between

        21       no matter what surveys or estimates that are

        22       made by people on either side.

        23                      In the ordinary case what we are











                                                             
11141

         1       asking, those of us that support this bill, is

         2       that a child, a child is able to secure the

         3       input of a parent, the parent who, I might add,

         4       in most cases would bear the burden of the

         5       medical expenses if something goes wrong.

         6                      I'm not, other than -- I'm not

         7       stressing, although I share the dismay of

         8       Senator Padavan at Dawn Ravenell in our county,

         9       the 13-year-old girl who, in making that fatal

        10       trip to the abortion clinic, was taking her

        11       first trip on the New York State -- the New York

        12       City subway.

        13                      With that in mind, I'd like to

        14       say briefly some of -- and not repeating the

        15       arguments of some of my colleagues.  What are we

        16       talking about? I notice that some of the -- my

        17       colleagues on the other side of the question

        18       keep referring to these children as "young

        19       women".  In most cases, they are 12, 13, 14,

        20       15-year-old children.

        21                      We have made a decision in order

        22       to bring this question before the house and

        23       after due deliberation, to lower that age.











                                                             
11142

         1       There was some merit in some of the arguments on

         2       17- and 18-year-olds, but it's interesting too,

         3       to allude to the argument of one of my

         4       colleagues that now miraculously she is -- she

         5       indicates that there is inconsistency in our

         6       position, but miraculously where we would take

         7       away the responsibility of those same youthful

         8       offenders that now they are -- they have been

         9       given the mantle of responsibility because this

        10       is a different question.

        11                      What are 13, 14 -- what do these

        12       children do?  Many of them are under -- going

        13       through their Holy Confirmation at 13.  They're

        14       doing their bar mitzvahs or bat mitzvahs.

        15       They're beginning puberty, a very difficult time

        16       at best, acne problems, entering high school, at

        17       13 the eighth grade, 14 the ninth grade.

        18                      I ask some of my colleagues to

        19       think back, if they can think back that far, and

        20       I look at it from the vantage point of some 62

        21       years and find it difficult, but I ask my staff

        22       and myself to speak to some of the youngsters of

        23       13, 14 and 15.  What are the books they're











                                                             
11143

         1       doing?  They're hanging out at the mall.

         2       They're rollerskating, they're bowling.  They

         3       can't be admitted legally to an "R" rated

         4       movie.  They're involved in school sports, first

         5       dates, group dates, school dances.  They're

         6       taking school field trips.  They're taking a

         7       foreign language, perhaps for the first time.

         8       They're studying algebra.  They're reading Pride

         9       and Prejudice, To Kill a Mocking Bird, Old

        10       Yeller, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Anne

        11       of the Green Gables.  They're going to the

        12       circus.  They're joining the Girl Scouts.

        13       They're going to 4-H.  They're doing Nintendo

        14       games.  They can't buy cigarettes until they're

        15       18, and they can't get a learner's permit until

        16       they're 16.

        17                      I submit they are children and so

        18       many of the things that are done or go on in our

        19       society rob our children of their youth.  What

        20       I'm saying in this case, if a child is in an

        21       unfortunate situation, in a predicament that

        22       they simply don't know where to turn, the place

        23       to turn is not these abortion clinics.  That is











                                                             
11144

         1       not seeking the advice of a physician who knows

         2       something about their medical history or is able

         3       to consult with them.  They are factories,

         4       abortion factories in the main, that offer

         5       nothing besides a cheap and easy abortion at

         6       this very, very sensitive time in a young girl's

         7       life.

         8                      We in the Legislature have an

         9       obligation to provide that at least in those

        10       cases where appropriate, a parent should be

        11       notified so that they can offer some aid and

        12       comfort to their child.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Saland.

        15                      SENATOR SALAND:  Thank you, Mr.

        16       President.

        17                      Mr. President, I had initially

        18       anticipated a series of questions for the

        19       sponsor.  What I would like to do is avoid

        20       having to do that and perhaps comment about some

        21       of the things that were my concerns in this

        22       bill.  There is, however, one relatively

        23       innocuous question which totally befuddles me











                                                             
11145

         1       and I must ask the question of Senator Padavan.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Padavan, do you yield to a question from Senator

         4       Saland?  Senator yields.

         5                      SENATOR SALAND:  The fourth page

         6       of the bill, Senator Padavan, paragraph 6,

         7       leaves it to the Supreme Court, and I think you

         8       made mention to it in response to one of the

         9       questions earlier, to promulgate the rules and

        10       regulations necessary to assure the proceedings

        11       are handled in an expeditious and anonymous

        12       manner.

        13                      I'm just puzzled as to why the

        14       Supreme Court inasmuch as the court that has

        15       jurisdiction here is the Family Court and your

        16       appeal is not to the Supreme Court but to the

        17       Appellate Division.  Is there a particular

        18       reason why, or is that perhaps an oversight in

        19       drafting, and should it be the Family Court or

        20       the Court of Appeals?

        21                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  It's not an

        22       oversight in drafting.  It was, in our view, a

        23       court that has such broad jurisdiction now in so











                                                             
11146

         1       many areas that it would be the most appropriate

         2       level of the judiciary to examine carefully what

         3       this legislation is all about and come up with

         4       the rules and regulations that would be the

         5       basis of implementation, but certainly if

         6       someone said, another court, Appellate Division

         7       for example, it's not a question in my mind of

         8       argumentation, but rather a decision based on

         9       our judgment.

        10                      SENATOR SALAND:  Thank you, and I

        11       would hope that were we to come to an agreement

        12       on a bill that might be considered by both

        13       houses that you would look a little more

        14       carefully and perhaps the court that you would

        15       be asking to handle these cases be the partici

        16       pant in promulgating the rules and regulations.

        17                      But let me share some of the

        18       things that are, as far as I'm concerned, of

        19       greater consequence and things that concern me.

        20       As was mentioned a bit earlier by Senator Good

        21       man, this is a one-house bill, as has been

        22       mentioned during the course of the debate, and I

        23       believe Senator Padavan has alluded to it on











                                                             
11147

         1       more than one occasion.

         2                      The legislative purposes and

         3       findings certainly are clear.  I'm certainly

         4       supportive of those findings and the thing that

         5       troubles my perhaps, however, is that I'm not

         6       voting merely on the findings; I'm voting on the

         7       bill.

         8                      Now, starting off in the penalty

         9       provision, paragraph 5, the penalty provision

        10       talks in terms of a person who intentionally

        11       performs an abortion with knowledge that or with

        12       reckless disregard as to whether the person upon

        13       whom the abortion is to be performed is an

        14       emancipated minor.

        15                      Now, I would suggest to you that

        16       the only parallel section I can find, and that

        17       deals with the subject of "reckless" is the

        18       definition section in the Penal Law, section 15

        19       of the Penal Law, which defines "recklessly",

        20       and "recklessly" is defined as follows: A person

        21       acts recklessly with respect to a result or to a

        22       circumstances described by statute defining

        23       events when he is aware of and consciously











                                                             
11148

         1       disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk

         2       that such result will occur.

         3                      It goes on to say the risk must

         4       be of such a nature and degree that disregard

         5       thereof constitutes a gross deviation from the

         6       standard of conduct that a reasonable person

         7       would observe in the situation.

         8                      This bill attempts to establish a

         9       standard of recklessness and yet, as you read

        10       further in the bill, it imposes liability and it

        11       doesn't distinguish between civil liability and

        12       criminal liability where, as follows.  It says a

        13       person shall not be held liable under this

        14       section, if the person establishes by written

        15       evidence, whatever that means, that the person

        16       relied upon evidence sufficient to convince a

        17       careful and prudent person that the representa

        18       tions of the pregnant minor regarding

        19       information necessary to comply with this

        20       section are bona fide and true.

        21                      Now, there is nowhere in the

        22       Penal Law that I have been able to find even

        23       after a Lex' Law search, use of "careful and











                                                             
11149

         1       prudent".  I can show you instances in the

         2       Insurance Law where the term "prudent" is used.

         3       There are a number of instances in which there's

         4       a requirement of a person who's investing under

         5       the Insurance Law to do with a degree of care

         6       that an ordinarily prudent individual in a like

         7       position would use under similar circumstances.

         8       The Insurance Law has a number of references to

         9       that.

        10                      My fear is that we are creating a

        11       standard here, a standard that imposes a

        12       criminal penalty for which there is no

        13       definition, and to go back to some of the

        14       comments a bit earlier in the course of Senator

        15       Paterson's debate raising the substance of

        16       constitutionality, I'm not talking about

        17       criminal constitutionality, that's been

        18       resolved, but vagueness in a criminal statute

        19       particularly in our state with our Court of

        20       Appeals lends itself to the prospect of being

        21       overruled, and I'm very fearful in the absence

        22       of a definition, that we're creating a standard

        23       for which a criminal penalty can be imposed and











                                                             
11150

         1       we're not defining that standard, and by going

         2       beyond the "reasonable man" or "reasonable

         3       person" standard and defining as "careful and

         4       prudent" the standard and not "reasonable

         5       person", we are requiring an undefined higher

         6       standard that will intentionally or

         7       unintentionally have the effect of paralyzing

         8       physicians who will fear for criminal liability

         9       and may have the chilling effect that was

        10       alluded to earlier.

        11                      In the precedent section,

        12       coercion prohibited.  There is in section 135 of

        13       the Penal Law a section that deals with

        14       coercion.  "Coercion" is defined; there are

        15       penalties.  I believe there's a misdemeanor

        16       section, I'm not quite sure if there's a "D"

        17       felony associated as well for the higher

        18       degree.

        19                      This "coercion" section, I can

        20       only assume, creates a civil remedy, not a

        21       criminal remedy, and we don't describe what

        22       courts shall have jurisdiction.  In the Article

        23       10-A you say that the Family Court will be the











                                                             
11151

         1       court of jurisdiction for purposes of the by

         2       pass procedure.  We don't know what -- third, we

         3       don't know what relief is available; we don't

         4       know what penalties, if any, will be imposed and

         5       again my assumption is you're not redefining

         6       coercion for criminal purposes, but you're

         7       attempting to create something civil here.

         8                      Very, very importantly, reference

         9       has been had to this bill as a one-parent

        10       notification bill, and I truly believe that that

        11       is the intent of the sponsor.  I fear, however,

        12       that it is more than a one-parent notification

        13       bill.  I fear it is a two-parent notification

        14       bill effectively masquerading as a one-parent

        15       bill.  We talk about notice being required to a

        16       parent, unless -- I'm sorry, the section reads,

        17       and even on page 2 of the bill, lines 39 through

        18       42, and it reads as follows:  Where the minor's

        19       parents are divorced or legally separated or one

        20       parent is not available to the person performing

        21       the abortion or the referring physician in a

        22       reasonable time or manner, then the notice to

        23       the parent with custody or report to the parent











                                                             
11152

         1       who's available shall be sufficient.

         2                      Well, again, we're dealing with

         3       one of the most difficult subjects, one of the

         4       most emotionally packed subjects that we could

         5       deal with.  Whether you define it as a family

         6       rights issue or an abortion issue, the practical

         7       application is the same.

         8                      Availability when we're talking

         9       in terms of parents who may not be legally

        10       separated or legally divorced, those parents, if

        11       their whereabouts are known, one could live on

        12       Smith Street, one could live on Main Street, one

        13       could live on Central Avenue, one can live on

        14       State Street.  They're not divorced, and not

        15       legally separated.  They are nonetheless not

        16       living under the same roof.  They are not living

        17       there as husband and wife as they had

        18       previously, but they are the parents of the

        19       child.

        20                      It may well be that the offending

        21       parent, the offending parent, someone living out

        22       of the household, may have violated this young

        23       girl.  Under this bill, that person has to get











                                                             
11153

         1       notice.  That troubles me as a parent.  It

         2       troubles me as the chairman of the Children and

         3       Families Committee.  It troubles me as a human

         4       being.  I'm deeply troubled by that.

         5                      I have nothing but the utmost

         6       respect for Frank Padavan and what he's

         7       attempting to do here.  I have always spoken in

         8       terms of my support for a parental notification

         9       bill and if, in fact, I will support this bill,

        10       it will be with the comfort of knowing that it's

        11       a one-house bill because I feel that this has to

        12       go back to the drawing board.

        13                      We're dealing with something far

        14       too precious and something that requires far too

        15       much work and far too much detail, and it may be

        16       a blessing in disguise for the sponsor of this

        17       bill that it is a one-house bill because some of

        18       the issues that have been raised here are issues

        19       that are going to have to be addressed if, in

        20       fact, you are to have two-house agreement and

        21       get it to the Governor.

        22                      So I commend him for his

        23       efforts.  I wish that some of these comments and











                                                             
11154

         1       certainly the ones I've indulged in are taken at

         2       the value for which they're given, basically to

         3       try and make corrections in a bill that I

         4       believe is flawed and requires work.

         5                      I'm concerned not only about that

         6       offending parent, I'm concerned about that class

         7       of children who are out there who are not

         8       technically emancipated, who may be living in

         9       this warp where they've left their home, the

        10       cops won't bring them back.  They're out there,

        11       they're street people.  Their connections with

        12       parents are virtually non-existent and, under

        13       this bill, there has to be an effort to try and

        14       reach out to those parents and again to both

        15       parents if, in fact, you know they're

        16       available.

        17                      So, Mr. President, I did -- as I

        18       mentioned in my opening remarks I had intended

        19       to engage in some bit of a dialogue with Senator

        20       Padavan for purposes of trying to elicit his

        21       comments.  Given the fact that we're well past

        22       the two-hour rule and there are a number of

        23       people who have similarly deferred, I will spare











                                                             
11155

         1       this house that dialogue and shall at this point

         2       conclude my comments and thank you for the

         3       opportunity.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Skelos, why do you rise?

         6                      SENATOR SKELOS:  There is no

         7       intention at this time to cut off debate, but I

         8       do want to mention that we're well over the two

         9       hour limit of debate.  If possible and again,

        10       there's no intention to cut off debate, if

        11       people can explain their vote, if they feel

        12       that's a sufficient amount of time, we would

        13       urge them to do so, so that we can continue with

        14       the day because there are many, many more bills

        15       to be brought up today.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       DeFrancisco.

        18                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  I'll be

        19       very brief, as brief as I would be to explain my

        20       vote.

        21                      There are a couple specific

        22       points I wanted to address, one of which was the

        23       concern that some of the people in this chamber











                                                             
11156

         1       have concerning the doctor being subject to some

         2       type of penalty if they do not do the

         3       notification.

         4                      Well, that doesn't offend anybody

         5       when a person who's abused, the child who's

         6       abused goes to the hospital and the nurse or the

         7       doctor has to notify the authorities about abuse

         8       and, if the authorities aren't notified, there's

         9       penalties that could be attached to the

        10       physician, the nurse, the hospital or the like.

        11                      So this provision in this

        12       particular bill that deals with potential

        13       penalties and an obligation on behalf of the

        14       doctor to make some notification or a nurse to

        15       make some notification is not something that's

        16       just being created on this particular occasion.

        17                      Secondly, there's been a lot of

        18       discussion about coercion, that there's a

        19       concern that the parents will coerce the child

        20       into a decision that maybe the child might not

        21       think is best.  I think parents have an

        22       obligation to care for a child and to provide

        23       the standards and the values that that parent or











                                                             
11157

         1       parents has towards that child.  In fact, we

         2       have certain obligations that parents have

         3       towards those children to raise those children

         4       in a proper manner and to indicate that the mere

         5       fact that a parent is going to try to counsel

         6       the child and be involved in this important

         7       issue, that that ultimately translates into

         8       coercion, I think, is the exception rather than

         9       the rule, which gets me to my main point.

        10                      The issue of parental

        11       notification should be framed in the way that I

        12       believe society wants to have people act; in

        13       other words, everyone in this chamber said it

        14       would be best if children talked to their

        15       parents, notified them.  It would be best for

        16       everyone under those circumstances, but after

        17       saying that, even the opponents say, but there's

        18       dysfunctional families.  There's pathological

        19       families.  There's this type of family.  There's

        20       abusive.

        21                      Of course, there is, but

        22       shouldn't the general rule be that the policy of

        23       this state is that parents and children should











                                                             
11158

         1       talk about all issues, including this important

         2       issue, and that's the policy of this state?

         3       That's what Senator Padavan's rule does.

         4       There's exceptions and that's the dysfunctional

         5       family, the coercive parent, the abusive parent

         6       and for exceptions, you make exceptions to the

         7       general rule, and that's what this bill does

         8       providing for a vehicle for those exceptions;

         9       and so I think it's a well balanced bill and it

        10       upholds the responsibility of parents that they

        11       have in other areas to the most probably and

        12       most important decision that a young child could

        13       make if they find themselves in this situation.

        14                      So I'm going to vote in favor of

        15       this bill.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       Padavan?  Senator Padavan waives.

        18                      SENATOR PADAVAN: I'll explain my

        19       vote.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator

        21       Padavan will explain his vote.

        22                      Senator Farley.

        23                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Yes, I was going











                                                             
11159

         1       to waive my right.  I think I'm near the end of

         2       that list, am I not?

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Connor is next to conclude.

         5                      SENATOR FARLEY:  All right.  I'll

         6       speak very briefly as if I was going to, but I

         7       could speak on this for some time.

         8                      I think everyone knows how I feel

         9       about abortion.  I don't view this bill in the

        10       same light at all.  This is a family rights

        11       issue without a doubt.  We're not talking about

        12       limiting a woman's right to abortion.  These are

        13       children -- children; 15 and younger.  It's

        14       unbelieveable that a child wouldn't need its

        15       mother, particularly at this time.  Certainly a

        16       father is important also.

        17                      If there's no family structure,

        18       the courts intercede.  But let me just say

        19       this.  If there's an issue that the people of

        20       this state feel deeply about, it's this one.

        21       Put this one on the ballot, you'll see a land

        22       slide.  You will see a landslide, regardless of

        23       how you feel about the right to choose or how











                                                             
11160

         1       you feel about pro-life.  The people of this

         2       state feel very deeply that there should be

         3       notification, if not consent.  They feel very

         4       deeply about this.

         5                      I've taken a poll of my

         6       constituency on abortion.  It's very close, it

         7       was 50/50.  On this issue, it's a landslide.

         8       They want notification.  Senator Padavan has

         9       already spoken to the fact that this

        10       Legislature, significantly, passed in my first

        11       year here consent, not notification, consent.  I

        12       think it's very, very significant.  I applaud

        13       our Majority Leader for bringing this issue

        14       before us, and I'll tell you, if this bill hit

        15       the floor of the Assembly, it would pass in a

        16       New York minute.  Maybe the two hours are

        17       better, but it would pass easily.

        18                      We are at a significant time.

        19       This is a statement from this house.  It's how

        20       we feel about families -- a family issue that is

        21       very, very significant.  I listened carefully to

        22       what Senator Saland had to say, and I respect

        23       his legal mind.  There's no perfect bill, and











                                                             
11161

         1       I'm sure that Senator Padavan will consider some

         2       of these things.  I applaud you, Senator

         3       Padavan, wherever he went, for bringing this

         4       bill before us.

         5                      I'm going to vote in the

         6       affirmative, and I certainly hope that my

         7       colleagues would join me.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Skelos.

        10                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        11       at this time, if we could have the last section

        12       read for purposes of two Senators voting.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        14       will read the last section.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 6.  This

        16       act shall take effect on the 90th day.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        18       roll.

        19                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        21       Montgomery, how do you vote?

        22                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Vote no.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator











                                                             
11162

         1       Montgomery will be recorded in the negative.

         2                      KUHL:  Senator Skelos, how do you

         3       vote?

         4                      SENATOR SKELOS:  In the

         5       affirmative.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       Skelos is in the affirmative.  The roll call is

         8       withdrawn.  The debate will continue.

         9                      The Chair recognizes Senator

        10       Connor to conclude.

        11                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Thank you, Mr.

        12       President.

        13                      This is an issue that I think

        14       many, many people care very much about and feel

        15       very deeply about because it does strike at

        16       fundamental relationships in the family and it

        17       does, as Senator DeFrancisco pointed out, it

        18       does go to what we would hold out as the ideal

        19       and what most New Yorkers would hold out as the

        20       ideal, and it's one that I care very, very much

        21       about, and in some sense feel a little bit of

        22       conflict.

        23                      I relate to this not just as a











                                                             
11163

         1       legislator but as a parent of children, as a

         2       Catholic, as someone who's been in this

         3       Legislature many, many years and as someone

         4       who's had a chance to observe the real

         5       conditions in our state.

         6                      I would suggest a better bill, a

         7       better bill, would be a bill guaranteeing to

         8       every child in New York State, boy or girl, two

         9       loving, caring parents or guardians.  That would

        10       be a good bill.  My colleagues, would that not

        11        -- would that not represent better than this

        12       bill the ideal that New Yorkers hold out? Why

        13       don't we pass a bill guaranteeing every child in

        14       New York State loving, caring, supportive

        15       parents from the moment of birth until their

        16       majority.  That's what we ought to do.  I'll

        17       support that bill.

        18                      You say, Oh, how can we do that

        19       legislatively? You can't legislate that.  That's

        20       just an ideal.  Well, isn't that what this bill

        21       is, an ideal, and you're trying to legislate an

        22       ideal that doesn't exist?  Of course, if you

        23       polled New Yorkers, as Senator Farley pointed











                                                             
11164

         1       out, and you represent only those children who

         2       make important decisions consulting with loving

         3       supportive parents, of course New Yorkers are

         4       for that; but regrettably for a large number of

         5       children in New York you have to first find

         6       loving, supportive parents and/or guardians.

         7                      You know, Senator Maltese

         8       harkened back, I don't know, we didn't hang out

         9       in malls when I was 13.  They didn't have malls;

        10       we hung out in the soda shop.  He talked about

        11       the books these teenagers read, where they go,

        12       what they're doing.  They're getting their

        13       confirmations, their bar mitzvahs, they're going

        14       to high school and they're reading wonderful

        15       books and all.  How idealistic!

        16                      Were that only true for every 13

        17       and 14-year-old in New York State.  Let me tell

        18       you, my colleagues, about thousands, far too

        19       many 13- and 14- and 15-year-olds in New York

        20       State.  They're hanging out on the streets until

        21       all hours of the morning.  They're smoking dope

        22       or worse.  They have no parents to go home to.

        23       Sometimes they're stealing to get some small











                                                             
11165

         1       cash to buy food because they don't have a

         2       parent or guardian who worries about the three

         3       squares.  Sometimes the only meal they get is in

         4       school.  Yet their legislators -- their

         5       legislators -- there are legislators who think

         6       we ought not provide lunch in schools for these

         7       poor kids.  We don't worry about their basic

         8       sustenance, much less do they have caring

         9       supportive parents.

        10                      I've learned one thing in 18

        11       years in this Legislature.  Every problem

        12       doesn't have a legislative solution and if that

        13       sounds conservative, label me so.  Does this

        14       bill identify a problem?  Gee, it does seem to

        15       be a problem.  We do want to encourage children

        16       to be involved, to involve their parents in

        17       important decisions, that's a wonderful goal.

        18       That's a wonderful ideal.  Can we legislated

        19       that? No more than we can legislate that every

        20       parent or guardian is loving, supportive and

        21       caring.

        22                      That may be regrettable as an

        23       ideal, a moral thing that we can't do that, but











                                                             
11166

         1       we certainly have to realize we can't legislate

         2       it.

         3                      Senator Marchi said, a

         4       bureaucratic position, they couldn't possibly be

         5       more supportive than a parent.  They couldn't

         6       possibly judge the best interest of the child

         7       and the emotional needs better than a parent.  I

         8       wish that were so.  He should have said they

         9       ought not.  They ought not be able to be more

        10       supportive and caring and they ought to be -

        11       have the best interests of the child and know

        12       what that best interest is far better than a

        13       bureaucrat or a judge, and I would add judge,

        14       left judges out, judges in this bill, or a

        15       physician.

        16                      Regrettably, read the papers.

        17       Parents kill children.  The social services

        18       system doesn't work.  Kids go in and out of

        19       foster care because there are no loving and

        20       supportive parents.  They go into foster care

        21       and they get returned to the natural parents.

        22       They get murdered.  Happens every week, every

        23       week.  That's the reality.  That's the reality.











                                                             
11167

         1       Regrettably, and it's abhorrent, but that's the

         2       reality for many of the children in our state

         3       and I say to those who rather blithely would cut

         4       down the basic subsistence paid to some of these

         5       families -- and we've heard that earlier in the

         6       session, cut 'em 15 percent -- that's not

         7       reality.

         8                      We owe these children more.  We

         9       can't just pass a bill that says everything will

        10       be nice, notify the parents and the children

        11       will be loved, supported, encouraged and

        12       guided.  That's not the reality, and I suggest

        13        -- I suggest that part of the evidence that

        14       that's not the reality is the very high instance

        15       of pregnancy among very young women, indeed

        16       girls of 13, 14.  That's part of the evidence of

        17       the dysfunction in the families.

        18                      Now, I'm not suggesting that

        19       every young woman who gets -- finds herself with

        20       an unwanted pregnancy comes from a dysfunctional

        21       family because from Adam and Eve's time on,

        22       things happen.  Things happen between young

        23       people, and there are pregnancies that aren't











                                                             
11168

         1       desired.

         2                      I'm not suggesting that, but I'm

         3       suggesting in a very large percentage of young

         4       women who find themselves pregnant, that just

         5       may be part of the evidence that they don't have

         6       parents that are as involved or supportive in

         7       their lives as we ought to have in -- for every

         8       child.  But we can't legislate that.  If anybody

         9       can convince me we could legislate that kind of

        10       parent, then I'd say go all the way, Senator

        11       Padavan.  Let's put in a bill and guarantee

        12       every child born in New York loving, caring

        13       parents for the rest of their lives.

        14                      That's what we ought to be

        15       concerned about.  We can't do it by legislation,

        16       but we ought to be concerned about all the other

        17       legislation we have going or propose separate

        18       and apart from this, whether it's in the budget

        19       or anywhere else that doesn't foster that

        20       ideal.  We ought to be concerned to push that

        21       ideal.

        22                      You know, you say, Well, but

        23       we've covered all these children who are from











                                                             
11169

         1       dysfunctional families and whose parent or step

         2       parent or guardian is perhaps even responsible

         3       for the pregnancy in a very direct way because

         4       of abuse.  Look at the statistics on abused

         5       children.  You know, and you know one of my

         6       colleagues said, Hey, well, don't worry about

         7       the penalties.  We already penalize health care

         8       providers if you don't report to the police

         9       children that are brought in and abused.

        10                      Well, you know, there's two edges

        11       on that sword.  Yeah, we don't have them report

        12       to the parent.  Why not?  Often the number one

        13       suspect for that abuse.  We don't say, if you

        14       see an abused child and you're a doctor in an

        15       emergency room, we don't say you must notify the

        16       parents.  No, we say you must notify the

        17       police.  Inherent in that is a suspicion that,

        18       gee, not every child, regrettably not every

        19       child in New York State has a loving, supportive

        20       parent.  Some have abusive, drugged out non

        21       functional parents or guardians.

        22                      The reality, if we had a state

        23       where every 13- or 14-year-old was enjoying that











                                                             
11170

         1       long list of recreational and educational

         2       activities that Senator Maltese pointed out, I'd

         3       say wonderful, wonderful, and we should give

         4       them all -- we should legislate free ice cream

         5       every afternoon.

         6                      That's not the reality.  We have

         7       13- and 14-year olds who aren't reading anything

         8       because they can't read, because they've been in

         9       and out of school.  They can't read.  They're

        10       not hanging out at malls.  They're hanging out

        11       in slums.  They're trading drugs or the victims

        12       of those who do that.  They don't have a home to

        13       go to, much less a prom or a party or sporting

        14       events.  These are the children that this bill

        15       would rather pretend don't exist.

        16                      I don't know, you say, Well, why

        17       don't we -- you can go to a Family Court judge,

        18       you can go to a judge.  Well, I've learned one

        19       thing in all my years as a lawyer, and I have

        20       the highest respect for our judicial system, but

        21       I think it's terrible.  It's the best one that

        22       anyone has ever set up anywhere, but it's

        23       terrible.  It can't solve -- it cannot solve











                                                             
11171

         1       social problems.  It cannot solve -- judges

         2       can't solve family problems.  We make that

         3       mistake all the time.

         4                      Why doesn't he do anything about

         5       it? You know, look at all the spousal abuses and

         6       murder situations.  So -- but the court issued

         7       six protective orders.  That six protective

         8       orders can't stop a maniac from killing his ex

         9       spouse.  It happens all the time, regrettably it

        10       happens all the time.  Courts may be the place

        11       of last resort, but they're not a very good

        12       place to send people with their personal

        13       problems.  In fact, they're a very poor place.

        14                      If Senator Marchi did not doubt

        15       that physicians and bureaucrats can possibly

        16       substitute or appreciate as well as parents

        17       what's in the best interests of a child, why

        18       would you believe for a minute that a judge

        19       could do that? After you file all the right

        20       papers and get to the right courtroom, our

        21       courts are chock full of delay, disillusion

        22       ment and quandaries and our judges do a very

        23       good job within the law of trying to resolve











                                                             
11172

         1       those quandaries.  But I haven't met a judge

         2       yet who thinks, yep, in my courtroom we have the

         3       perfect solution to every problem.  King Solomon

         4       is not sitting in the Family Court in New York

         5       State.  We don't have any perfect justice.  We

         6       have perhaps the best -- best system that we can

         7       fashion as mere mortals, but the courts don't

         8       have all the answers and they're a very, very

         9       poor place for this kind of personal decision

        10       that a young girl might have to make or have to

        11       resort to in the absence -- in the absence of

        12       caring parents and guardians.

        13                      So notification.  I have to

        14       believe that those children in New York State

        15       who are fortunate enough to have what is their

        16       right, loving, supportive parent or parents

        17       and/or guardian, would if faced with this kind

        18       of crisis, discuss it with such a parent.  I

        19       would believe that my children certainly would

        20       discuss something of that magnitude with me.

        21       But the fact of the matter is it's those others

        22       who have nowhere to turn, who have nowhere to

        23       turn, that this bill ignores.  You know, the











                                                             
11173

         1       bill does represent an ideal that I subscribe

         2       to, but it's best expressed in that guarantee

         3       that no Legislature can make regrettably, that

         4       every child should have that kind of supportive

         5       loving relationship.

         6                      And I might suggest, you say,

         7       well, but there are times when the child is even

         8       intimidated from confiding in loving, supportive

         9       parents.  My colleague described what a crisis

        10       that is for a 13- or 14-year-old girl, and I

        11       agree, but I have a very, very strong idea that

        12       where there is a loving, supportive, close

        13       family, the parents certainly will perceive the

        14       kind of anguish, confusion and pressure their

        15       child is under, and might even initiate a

        16       discussion because of that.

        17                      So even if, in those kind of

        18       families, Gee, the daughter won't come forward

        19       without a notice being delivered, the fact is

        20       that's part of caring, supportive parents.

        21       Spend time with their children, notice changes

        22       in their behavior, be able to tell when their

        23       14-year-old is under extraordinary pressure or











                                                             
11174

         1       feels very, very conflicted and then offer an

         2       ear, but as to the other children, a notice in

         3       the mail to the parent can only cause more

         4       grief, more problems in the family relationship,

         5       indeed possibly a danger of violence or abuse

         6       and I really, really think that, for some of

         7       those young girls who are very young and

         8       immature, it could result in resort to back

         9       alley abortions, to death, to incredible damage,

        10       to the kind of thing New York has said no to

        11       taking a chance with for these many, many

        12       years.

        13                      Mr. President, I urge a no

        14       vote.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Padavan.

        17                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Mr. President,

        18       I'm going to rise to explain my vote.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        20       Secretary will read the last section.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 6.  This

        22       act shall take effect on the 90th day.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the











                                                             
11175

         1       roll.

         2                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         3                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Slow roll call.

         4                      (The Secretary called the roll).

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Slow roll

         6       call has been requested.  I see five Senators

         7       requesting that.

         8                      The Secretary will call the roll

         9       slowly.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Abate.

        11                      SENATOR ABATE:  No.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Babbush.

        13                      SENATOR BABBUSH:  No.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Bruno.

        15                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Yes.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Connor.

        17                      SENATOR CONNOR:  No.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Cook.

        19                      SENATOR COOK:  Mr. President.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        21       Cook to explain his vote.

        22                      SENATOR COOK:  Mr. President,

        23       aside from the issues that have been discussed,











                                                             
11176

         1       I think this bill raises an interesting

         2       intellectual point.  If we assume that a child

         3       of 13, 14 or 15 does not have the intellectual

         4       capacity to make a decision relative to having

         5       an abortion, then I think we ought to wonder

         6       what happens under the Social Services Law as

         7       we've now amended it which says that any girl,

         8       any minor girl, has to live in the home of a

         9       parent, and what happens if that girl comes home

        10       and says, "Gee, I'm pregnant," and the parent

        11       says, "I'm not going to have that kid living in

        12       my house.  I haven't got the income, the ability

        13       to take care of a baby in this house.  Besides

        14       that, you're too young, too immature to have a

        15       baby," and the girl says, "But I want to have

        16       the baby."  Should the parent have the ability

        17       to say, "You will have an abortion because

        18       you're too immature to know whether you ought to

        19       have an abortion or not?"  Should the parent

        20       have that kind of power, or does it only go one

        21       way when you can say, "No, you shall not have an

        22       abortion."

        23                      I think it's got to be one way or











                                                             
11177

         1       another.  Either the child is mature enough to

         2       make the decision both ways or the child is not

         3       mature enough to have -- to make the decision

         4       both ways and obviously I don't think any of us

         5       around here would be advocating a law whereby a

         6       parent could force a child to have an abortion,

         7       but if we don't make the decision in that

         8       direction, I don't see how we can make it in the

         9       opposite direction, let them deny that ability

        10       to have the abortion.

        11                      Therefore, I vote in the

        12       negative.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Cook will be recorded in the negative.

        15                      Secretary continue to call the

        16       roll.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        18       DeFrancisco.

        19                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Yes.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator DiCarlo.

        21                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Aye.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        23       Dollinger.











                                                             
11178

         1                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Explain my

         2       vote, Mr. President.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Dollinger, to explain his vote.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  I had a

         6       chance to ask Senator Padavan a series of

         7       questions, and I yielded the floor before I had

         8       a chance to express my views on this bill.  I

         9       think it creates standards for physicians in

        10       interrogating their patient, but it doesn't tell

        11       you what they should do or how they should do

        12       it.

        13                      It talks about promoting the

        14       family and parenting, yet for some reason it

        15       says you give notice to the parents of the

        16       would-be mother, but there's no requirement that

        17       you gave notice to the father, or the putative

        18       father, an inconsistency that I, frankly, find

        19       troubling if the goal is to encourage

        20       parenting.

        21                      It will pit a child against her

        22       parents in what I think is a one-way street

        23       because this bill says, if you're coerced into











                                                             
11179

         1       an abortion, that's wrong, but if you're coerced

         2       by your parents not to have an abortion, that's

         3       O.K. We're going to let our parents coerce our

         4       children to do what the sponsor of this bill and

         5       those who support it think they want to do which

         6       is, let's be blunt about it, stop abortions.

         7                      It creates civil liability on the

         8       part of our medical practitioners and

         9       potentially our health centers and our

        10       hospitals, but it doesn't talk about any

        11       standards.

        12                      It talks about creating a

        13       procedure for a courtroom bypass, but don't kid

        14       yourself, this isn't a bypass provision.  This

        15       isn't a provision that says we will do without

        16       notice under these circumstances.  This is a

        17       provision that transfers to the judge a

        18       determination about what the best interest of

        19       this child is.

        20                      I think it's a bad bill.  I think

        21       it's also bad politics.  I heard a couple

        22       speakers refer to the fact that this is

        23       overwhelmingly supported by the people in this











                                                             
11180

         1       state.  We know for a fact that the reason that

         2       something is supported by an overwhelming number

         3       of people in this state is not a reason for this

         4       house to do anything, because assault weapons or

         5       the ban on assault weapons is supported by

         6       almost the same amount of people percentages

         7       that this is supposedly supported by in the

         8       polls, and we've elected, or certain people in

         9       this chamber have elected not to do anything

        10       about assault weapons.

        11                      So when I'm lectured about the

        12       fact that 82 percent of the people support this,

        13       I'd simply go back to an argument we had several

        14       weeks ago.  It's obviously not a reason to do

        15       anything in this house.

        16                      I made a promise a long time ago

        17       about this issue, and I said that this state

        18       should not make our children into liars in order

        19       to get health care.  It should not make our

        20       doctors, physicians and hospitals into liars and

        21       into interrogators of their patients in order to

        22       give young women health care.  We should not go

        23       back to the 1950s when young women whispered











                                                             
11181

         1       amongst themselves, "I got a problem.  Do you

         2       know where I can go?"  "Yes, we've got a little

         3       address down a back alley up a couple floors."

         4       You'll meet someone who doesn't have M.D. at the

         5       end of their name, and you can there get your

         6       problem taken care of.

         7                      I'm not going to tell the

         8       desperate young women in this state, and I will

         9       admit something before I do say this, this bill

        10       may help someone.  There may be some families

        11       where, if you give notice, the parent will

        12       lovingly support the child to come to the right

        13       decision, but there are thousands, and I agree

        14       with Senator Connor, there are thousands of

        15       young desperate women who will say, "I can't

        16       talk to my parents about this," and my position

        17       is simple.  I promise not to do it.  Even if

        18       it's my 13-year-old daughter, I will not take

        19       away her only hope.

        20                      I vote no.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       Dollinger will be recorded in the negative.

        23                      The Secretary will continue to











                                                             
11182

         1       call the roll.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Espada.

         3                      (There was no response. )

         4                      Senator Farley.

         5                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I vote aye.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Galiber

         7       excused.

         8                      Senator Gold.

         9                      (There was no response. )

        10                      Senator Gonzalez excused.

        11                      Senator Goodman.

        12                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr. President,

        13       to explain my vote.

        14                      If only the world were as it's so

        15       beautifully depicted by Senator Maltese a moment

        16       ago; if only it were possible that you could say

        17       that the children we're talking about read

        18       Charlie's Chocolate Factory and To Kill a

        19       Mocking Bird, everything would be fine.  There'd

        20       be no problem.

        21                      The world is not that way.  The

        22       world also unfortunately consists of people, of

        23       youngsters with very severe problems and they're











                                                             
11183

         1       not talking about Charlie and the Chocolate

         2       Factory, we're talking about a Charlotte and the

         3       Baby Factory.

         4                      And that's the difficulty.

         5       That's the distinction.  That's what this law

         6       fails to understand.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Goodman, how do you vote?

         9                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  In the

        10       negative.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Goodman in the negative.

        13                      Secretary will continue to call

        14       the roll.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Hannon.

        16                      SENATOR HANNON:  Yes.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Hoblock.

        18                      SENATOR HOBLOCK:  Mr. President.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Hoblock, to explain his vote.

        21                      SENATOR HOBLOCK:  Thank you, Mr.

        22       President.

        23                      I've listened intently for close











                                                             
11184

         1       to three hours of the debate on this particular

         2       piece of legislation and found it not only

         3       interesting but very educational.  This is an

         4       issue that I know that many of us in this

         5       chamber have struggled with over the years

         6       because you deal with your personal conviction,

         7       you deal with the interests of your constituency

         8       and then you try to deal with the actual piece

         9       of legislation to see whether or not it fits

        10       into that mold or it adapts to your personal

        11       conviction and that of what you feel is the need

        12       and desire of your constituency.

        13                      And I have to tell you that

        14       because this is such a personal and emotional

        15       issue, putting at least those three pieces

        16       together is very difficult and maybe there's

        17       more pieces to this that others are trying to

        18       put together.  I've been in elective office many

        19       years like many of you and, on this particular

        20       issue, I have a personal conviction that I'm

        21       troubled by the fact that we as a state, we as a

        22       government, are not doing something for the 12

        23       or 13-year-old females that are trying to make











                                                             
11185

         1       this decision on their own, and that certainly

         2       leans me toward getting the family involved,

         3       whether it be by notification or some other

         4       method, and I think that we'd all like to live

         5       in that ideal world, and I think we need to have

         6       the faith and confidence to do that and we need

         7       to move in that direction.

         8                      Putting it into practice and

         9       developing a piece of legislation to accomplish

        10       that is an entirely different issue.  I think

        11       that the findings and the intent of this

        12       legislation, the first couple of paragraphs sets

        13       forth what it is we'd all like to do.  Then the

        14       problems develop.

        15                      I have some deep concern with

        16       this piece of legislation.  Many of the

        17       problems, and I won't reiterate because they

        18       have already been mentioned, but I think it is a

        19       step in the right direction.  Knowing that this

        20       bill is going to stay in this house and it will

        21       be worked on and there will be modifications and

        22       we will revisit this issue, I feel comfortable

        23       in moving in the direction that I've set out for











                                                             
11186

         1       myself, and I vote in the affirmative.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Hoblock will be recorded in the affirmative.

         4                      Secretary will continue to call

         5       the roll.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         7       Hoffmann.

         8                      (There was no response. )

         9                      Senator Holland.

        10                      SENATOR HOLLAND:  Yes.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Johnson.

        12                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Aye.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Jones.

        14                      SENATOR JONES:  Explain my vote.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Jones, to explain her vote.

        17                      SENATOR JONES:  I was reading an

        18       article today in the Gazette, and one of the

        19       comments was that most of the bills we pass here

        20       are generally not read and very little

        21       discussion and resulting in what happened last

        22       week with the Long Island toll bill.  Well, this

        23       bill certainly does not fall into this











                                                             
11187

         1       category.

         2                      I feel very comfortable that

         3       everyone here has read it very extensively and

         4       has probably spent many, many an hour thinking

         5       about it.  I guess I believe in my heart that

         6       this should be an easy yes vote if you just look

         7       at the surface of it, and to oppose it is far

         8       from easy.  All parents say they want to be

         9       involved in their children's lives and, of

        10       course, all of us believe that they should be.

        11                      But then I say don't they have

        12       that right now at their disposal the means to do

        13       this? I asked myself, doesn't day-to-day good

        14       communication with your children allow you that

        15       now? Doesn't it every day you impart to your

        16       kids values by good example, by training, by

        17       taking them to church, doing all the right

        18       things, doesn't that help?

        19                      And I say to myself, doesn't

        20       education about sex, relationships, the

        21       importance of saying no, doesn't all those

        22       things have any impact on children? Well, my

        23       answer is yes, it does and should, which then











                                                             
11188

         1       says to me that the only people that are going

         2       to be impacted by this piece of legislation is

         3       those who do not have those families, do not

         4       have a quality education and do not have the

         5       ability to hear this.  In fact, if the child who

         6       not only doesn't have two parents, doesn't even

         7       have one quality parent, and this same child can

         8       be a victim actually of the parent.  Right now,

         9       as someone said earlier, 74 percent of the teens

        10       who have sex before 14, it's because of incest.

        11                      Now, I know many of you have said

        12       there's a court option, and I understand that,

        13       that's true, but now we're saying let's have a

        14       judge who knows nothing of this child or the

        15       need to become not only the parent, the judge,

        16       but even the medical adviser to this child.  I

        17       truly have agonized over this issue and there's

        18       no one knows better than I the political

        19       ramifications of it, but I know in my heart it

        20       is not as simple as picking up a telephone and

        21       making a phone call to two parents.

        22                      I have four children and thank

        23       God all of them grew up and maybe I was lucky.











                                                             
11189

         1       I think that's a lot of it with children, but

         2       fortunately they all turned out well, and I have

         3       three beautiful grandchildren that I look on

         4       today, and while I'm agonizing about this, my

         5       daughter is always kind of my lightning rod or

         6       whatever, and I said, "Honey, what do you think

         7       about this?  You have three daughters," and her

         8       answer to me was, "Mom, I'm going to do

         9       everything in my power to raise these children

        10       that they will not be afraid to come to me no

        11       matter what their problem, but, if I fail, then

        12       I want to know there's a safe place that they

        13       can go."

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Jones, how do you vote?

        16                      SENATOR JONES:  (Talking over).

        17       Those of you who support this bill, let me just

        18       finish by saying preach the right thing from

        19       your pulpit, your children need to hear it.

        20       Talk to them in your home and show them by

        21       example the right thing and offer them your love

        22       and your comfort and your security blanket, they

        23       need it.  Teach them in the classroom the values











                                                             
11190

         1       and dangers of sex before marriage, the joys of

         2       family life, but please don't believe that the

         3       state of New York bears the ultimate

         4       responsibility for family values; it won't

         5       work.

         6                      I have to vote no.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Jones' vote will be recorded in the negative.

         9       The Chair would remind the members that you have

        10       two minutes to explain your vote.  I'm sure you

        11       all will remember that.

        12                      Secretary will continue to call

        13       the roll.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Kruger.

        15                      (There was no response. )

        16                      Senator Kuhl.

        17                      SENATOR KUHL:  Aye.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Lack

        19       excused.

        20                      Senator Larkin.

        21                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Yes.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator LaValle

        23       voting in the affirmative earlier today.











                                                             
11191

         1                      Senator Leibell.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Leibell to explain his vote.

         4                      SENATOR LEIBELL:  Thank you, Mr.

         5       President.

         6                      I'm one of those members that

         7       felt that, when I first saw the bill and had an

         8       opportunity to read through it, that this

         9       required a great deal more work before we had

        10       the chance to consider it on the floor.  Despite

        11       its distinguished sponsorship, I can't describe

        12       this legislation as particularly well crafted.

        13                      It has been noted by the sponsors

        14       as well as many others here that this is not a

        15       choice vote.  It's been changed to make sure

        16       that it does not provide for consent.  There's

        17       been a change in the age levels that are

        18       involved.

        19                      Obviously we are nonetheless,

        20       though, grappling with one of the most contro

        21       versial areas that we have to deal with and, for

        22       that I -- I think it is a good thing that we

        23       have this opportunity this afternoon to at least











                                                             
11192

         1       commence this dialogue.  I would like to see

         2       this dialogue expanded to include legislation

         3       which Senator Cook and I have sponsored, the

         4       health clinic access bill, so that we could have

         5       an opportunity to view this great social issue

         6       in all its aspects.

         7                      Nonetheless, I am glad that we at

         8       this point in time have had a chance to discuss

         9       what is by -- I think everyone has acknowledged

        10       at this point in time a one-house bill, but one

        11       that we will have obviously a great deal of

        12       discussion on in the future.  Its limitations

        13       have been noted.  The general concept is one,

        14       however.  That I can support, the idea that a

        15       family has an important role to play in these

        16       decisions.

        17                      With that in mind, I will vote

        18       aye.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Leibell will be recorded in the negative -- the

        21       affirmative.

        22                      Secretary will continue to call

        23       the roll.











                                                             
11193

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         2       Leichter.

         3                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Leichter to explain his vote.

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  To explain my

         7       vote.  You just can't legislate love and trust

         8       between a child and parents, and that's really

         9       what you're trying to do here.  Of course,

        10       children find themselves in a situation where

        11       they're pregnant and have to make a very

        12       difficult decision ought to make that decision

        13       in -- within their family and with the

        14       consultation of their parents, but we know that

        15       there's some children who will not do that, or

        16       where the family relationship does not allow

        17       this.

        18                      Where you have a dysfunctional

        19       family or you have other difficulties and in

        20       those circumstances to legislate and say, well,

        21       you must do that, or you must go to court, is

        22       just totally unreasonable.

        23                      I know I've heard on this floor











                                                             
11194

         1       that, well, we're not deciding or voting on

         2       choice, but I must tell you that when I consider

         3       this bill and when I consider the bill earlier

         4       this year that Senator Farley had on denying

         5       Medicaid support for abortions, these are

         6       guerilla attacks on the basic constitutional

         7       right to have an abortion, and you can put it

         8       all in the guise of, well, we're talking about

         9       family values and family being together and

        10       loving relationships between mothers and fathers

        11       and their daughter, but that's hogwash.

        12                      Your aim and purpose and intent,

        13       I submit by this bill, is to try to limit

        14       abortions in this state and to force people to

        15       carry fetus to terms when they may not want to

        16       make that choice.  I think it's an unrealistic

        17       bill, and I think it's an unjust bill.

        18                      I vote in the negative.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Leichter will be recorded in the negative.

        21                      Secretary will continue to call

        22       the roll.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Levy.











                                                             
11195

         1                      SENATOR LEVY:  Yes.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Libous

         3       excused.

         4                      Senator Maltese.

         5                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Mr. President.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       Maltese to explain his vote.

         8                      SENATOR MALTESE:  I had not

         9       expected to explain my vote, but I simply wanted

        10       to respond to some of my colleagues who chose to

        11       mention myself and other supporters by name and

        12       indicated that they felt there was a certain

        13       naivete in espousing a list or speaking of a

        14       society in which traditional family values are

        15       adhered to or espoused.

        16                      I certainly having been brought

        17       up on the Lower East Side and being chairman of

        18       the board of a high school for some 19 years,

        19       I don't think I could be accused of being

        20       completely unaware of our young pre-teens and

        21       teenagers.

        22                      I simply want to indicate that

        23       together with other supporters of the bill, that











                                                             
11196

         1       we are here because we feel that we are not

         2       satisfied with the status quo, not satisfied

         3       with the world as it is now, and we hope that by

         4       our efforts we can achieve a better place for

         5       our children to bring up our children, to bring

         6       up our families and, hopefully, by supporting

         7       legislation like this and similar legislation,

         8       we can come close to that goal.

         9                      Mr. President, I vote aye.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Maltese in the affirmative.

        12                      Continue to call the roll.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        14       Marcellino.

        15                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Yes.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Marchi.

        17                      SENATOR MARCHI:  Mr. President, I

        18       merely want to express my sadness in a way that

        19       some of the opponents of this bill express such

        20       dire judgments on the millions of families in

        21       this state.  These are good families.  These are

        22       good people and these are good people that want

        23       the best for their children.  I'm sure that











                                                             
11197

         1       they're intelligent and sensitive people that

         2       I'm speaking about, but on sober reflection they

         3       will -- and distance from the debate, they will

         4       come to a different conclusion about these

         5       families.

         6                      I vote aye.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Marchi in the affirmative.

         9                      Continue to call the roll.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        11       Markowitz.

        12                      SENATOR MARKOWITZ:  Explain my

        13       vote.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Markowitz to explain his vote.

        16                      SENATOR MARKOWITZ:  Thank you.

        17       Of course, I've heard these debates prior to

        18       this afternoon -- this is nothing new in this

        19       chamber -- in an attempt to lessen the right of

        20       women to choose, whether that woman is 16 years

        21       old or whether the woman is 20 or 30 or any

        22       age.

        23                      I would like if it was possible











                                                             
11198

         1       to turn back our society to Father Knows Best.

         2       That would be nice, or Leave It to Beaver, but

         3       1995, regrettably, in some ways is not the 1950s

         4       or late '40s or mid-'30s or '40s that some of

         5       you in the chamber grew up in.

         6                      Certainly for the latter part of

         7       the '40s, '50s and '60s, that hype came of age.

         8       As much as we care about these families, Senator

         9       Marchi, and we do care, Senator Marchi, we do.

        10       By and large, government has a certain role and

        11       when people make their decisions they make their

        12       decisions regardless of necessarily what

        13       government has issued, believe me.

        14                      In this case, I suspect that

        15       young women that are in loving families, that

        16       the chances are significantly less, where

        17       there's been that type of stronger family

        18       background that an abortion would even be

        19       contemplated or that the need for one or even

        20       the decision for one would be really academic.

        21       Where there is a strong bond between the young

        22       woman and her mom or dad, and should the issue

        23       of abortion come up, I believe that she would











                                                             
11199

         1       naturally seek out that person in her life that

         2       she's closest to whom she loves and who she

         3       trusts, whether it be her mom or dad or both.

         4                      However, we don't live in The

         5       Father Knows best society any more, Senator

         6       Marchi.  We haven't for years.  So the question

         7       is, what is right for government to do? What is

         8       right for us as legislators?  And it seems to me

         9       that voting for this bill will only force those

        10       young people that make the decision to terminate

        11       their pregnancy, we might force them to face

        12       consequences that no good person in this chamber

        13       would want that young person to experience; and

        14       so, therefore, we have to vote on the greatest

        15       good for the greatest number to protect those

        16       that need protection.

        17                      In this case, Senator Marchi,

        18       voting for this bill, I don't believe, protects

        19       the very people that you care about and I care

        20       about.  There's no question of that in our

        21       society once we begin focusing in on the

        22       extraordinary sex that we see on television and

        23       in the movies over and over and over and over











                                                             
11200

         1       and over again, and every advertiser and every

         2       quote, major corporation, the most conservative

         3       to the most liberal, they use whatever they have

         4       to to sell their product.

         5                      So on one side we say yes and on

         6       the other side we say no.  Is it any wonder why

         7       society is as conflicted as it is today?

         8                      I vote no.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Markowitz in the negative.

        11                      Continue to call the roll.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Maziarz.

        13                      SENATOR MAZIARZ:  Yes.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Mendez.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Mendez to explain her vote.

        17                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Mr. President,

        18       to explain my vote.

        19                      In -- in following the debate

        20       here today, Mr. President, I have been going

        21       from the position of affirmative position for

        22       the bill and a negative position for the bill

        23       back and forth all day long, because I do











                                                             
11201

         1       believe very strongly that parents of young

         2       children should be notified.  In fact, in New

         3       York City today -- and this was one of the

         4       reasons why I have been inclined to support this

         5       bill is, in the public school system in New

         6       York, one out of four children is sexually

         7       abused.  Since -- and the usual thing for the

         8       school person, the usual thing that the school

         9       personnel do is that they transfer the guilty

        10       person to another district without telling the

        11       accepting or receiving district what that person

        12       has done.  So that with school-based clinics in

        13       our schools, in the City, which I support, there

        14       is a risk, an enormous risk, of having a child

        15       that is abused sexually by school personnel and

        16       then that child being taken from that -- that

        17       school-based clinic and taken to an abortion

        18       clinic and the parents without knowing

        19       anything.

        20                      So in terms of protecting those

        21       children, I was thinking yes, I would support

        22       the bill.

        23                      In reading further the bill,











                                                             
11202

         1       however, Mr. President, I saw that this bill -

         2       this bill forces children, I mean this bill, the

         3       state helps children who decide to keep the

         4       child by making them emancipated young people.

         5       In doing so, they are giving all the services

         6       that that child might do again when that is

         7       already forbidden by law in terms of the social

         8       welfare reform that we did here, while the girl

         9       who goes through with abortion, because when the

        10       parents do not want her to do so, she has her -

        11       her abortion, goes home and she still will be

        12       facing the same music.

        13                      So I think I -- for the record, I

        14       support parental notification.  I, for the

        15       record, do not support parental consent.  I want

        16       to thank Senator Padavan for bringing this issue

        17       to the fore.  We know that this bill is not

        18       going to see the light -- is not going to go

        19       through in the Assembly.  It will not be

        20       discussed in the Assembly, but I think that we

        21       have to go back to the drawing board and make a

        22       more equitable -- equitable bill to protect our

        23       children.











                                                             
11203

         1                      So, therefore, I will be voting

         2       in the negative.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Mendez in the negative.

         5                      Secretary will continue to call

         6       the roll.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         8       Montgomery voting in the negative earlier

         9       today.

        10                      Senator Nanula.

        11                      SENATOR NANULA:  No.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        13       Nozzolio.

        14                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  Aye.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Onorato.

        16                      SENATOR ONORATO:  Aye.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        18       Oppenheimer.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Oppenheimer to explain her vote.

        21                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Briefly, I

        22       think most of the people in this room probably

        23       would be sought out by their kids.  For the most











                                                             
11204

         1       part, what I've heard when I've spoken to the

         2       other Senators is that there's concern and

         3       involvement, parental involvement, with their

         4       kids that's been going on for many years, and I

         5       think that we understand that we can't legislate

         6       trust and we can't legislate confidence and we

         7       can't legislate communication between child and

         8       adult.

         9                      In the cases that we're talking

        10       about, 80 percent of these young people, these

        11       children 13, 14 and 15, did seek their parents'

        12       involvement, and so we're talking about a small

        13       minority of them that don't and where they don't

        14       in those states where they already have judicial

        15       bypass with parental notification, and where

        16       thousands and thousands of cases have already

        17       been heard, the assessment hasn't been good, and

        18       this is not just anecdotal that I'm talking

        19       about.

        20                      I read earlier what many of the

        21       judges in these states have said about the cases

        22       that they heard concerning judicial bypass, and

        23       they were specifically named judges and direct











                                                             
11205

         1       quotes and each one of these justices said that

         2       in -- this process was just an enormous hassle

         3       for kids and accomplished very little else.

         4                      What we all would agree who have

         5       difficulty with this bill is, there are needs.

         6       There are certainly needs, and education is the

         7       first need.  Family life education in all of our

         8       schools is an important need.  More school-based

         9       clinics is an important need.  There are a lot

        10       of needs out there.  This bill does not address

        11       any of those needs.

        12                      I, for one, support reproductive

        13       freedom.  I believe choice should be available

        14       to all females whether they're rich or poor or

        15       young or old or white or black or Latino.  I

        16       think it is guaranteed by our Constitution and

        17       by our Supreme Court, and I'll be voting in the

        18       negative.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Oppenheimer in the negative.

        21                      Continue to call the roll.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Padavan.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator











                                                             
11206

         1       Padavan to explain his vote.

         2                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Mr. President,

         3       there's been a considerable amount of debate and

         4       I respect the views expressed on both sides of

         5       this issue during the several hours we've talked

         6       about it.

         7                      I would just like to set the

         8       record straight on a couple of issues which I

         9       think are important.

        10                      First, I want to assure Senator

        11       Goodman and some of the others that I, and I

        12       know everyone who supports this legislation,

        13       does not live in Disney World.  We live in the

        14       real world.  We understand fully the issues of

        15       dysfunctional families.  We understand fully

        16       where this type issue falls hardest in many,

        17       many instances, but we also understand fully,

        18       contrary to comments made by Senator Cook, that

        19       we are not out to punish children.  We are out,

        20       and our primary focus, to repeat what I said

        21       earlier, is to ensure the health, physical

        22       health, mental health and well-being of young

        23       girls who find themselves in this position.











                                                             
11207

         1                      Senator Connor indicated that the

         2       Family Court is not the place to replace

         3       parents, not the location that parents should

         4       have surrogates, and he's right.  The Family

         5       Court, in this legislation, is for one and only

         6       one purpose, to make the determination as to

         7       whether or not notification should be

         8       implemented.  It does not become involved in

         9       determining whether an abortion should be

        10       permitted or not.  That is outside any court's

        11       jurisdiction.  It is not a surrogate for parents

        12       in terms of advising children what to do and not

        13       do.

        14                      It is simply there to make a

        15       determination based on valid considerations such

        16       as the one brought up by Senator Saland, where

        17       you have an offending parent and you don't want

        18       that parent to get notification for obvious

        19       reasons.  That's what the Family Court's role is

        20       in this legislation.

        21                      In sum, we have tried to craft

        22       something here that reflects not only the wisdom

        23       of the federal courts, Supreme Court, but also











                                                             
11208

         1       tracks what is going on in states throughout

         2       this country.  We think, on balance, it provides

         3       a level of protection for children that they do

         4       not have today, that youngsters who are willing

         5       to take an easy way out may be the wrong way

         6       out, and we think parents ought to be involved

         7       to prevent that from happening.

         8                      I vote aye.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Padavan in the affirmative.

        11                      Continue to call the roll.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        13       Paterson.

        14                      SENATOR PATERSON:  No.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Present.

        16                      SENATOR PRESENT:  No.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Rath.

        18                      SENATOR RATH:  Aye.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Saland.

        20                      SENATOR SALAND:  Mr. President,

        21       to explain my vote.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        23       Saland, to explain his vote.











                                                             
11209

         1                      SENATOR SALAND:  Thank you, Mr.

         2       President.

         3                      Mr. President, I certainly would

         4       think it an injustice to anybody in this chamber

         5       to somehow or other impugn whatever their

         6       motives may be for their respective positions.

         7       In my comments earlier, I intended to, with the

         8       utmost sincerity, praise Senator Padavan for his

         9       efforts, for his integrity and for his

        10       commitment to an extraordinarily important

        11       issue.

        12                      Now, while I expressed

        13       rhetorically by way of questions some

        14       reservations that I think have to be addressed

        15       in order to make this bill into a two-house

        16       proposal that will carry the day, I would not

        17       want to, in any way, shape or form, have that

        18       construed as somehow or other my lack of concern

        19       for the importance of the issue of parental

        20       notification.

        21                      I very strongly believe in that

        22       type of legislation, and would hope that, as

        23       this issue continues and as the session draws to











                                                             
11210

         1       a close and we go back and review what we've

         2       done, that we will have the opportunity to work

         3       and to improve this measure.

         4                      I'll share with you an experience

         5       just within this past week back home.  During my

         6       week off, I was on one of my extended walks with

         7       my wife, and asked her about her feelings about

         8       the parental notification issue, a person who

         9       doesn't necessarily agree with me on each and

        10       every one of my votes, and who certainly could

        11       be called pro-choice, and I expected her

        12       response to be, and we had never discussed it

        13       before, that she didn't like it.

        14                      Her response was, "If you take

        15       that away from the family, what's left?" And I

        16       think that's a very, very valid concern.  I

        17       think it's a concern that we have to continue to

        18       endeavor to address.  I'd like to be able to

        19       work with Senator Padavan and others in that

        20       effort, and I'm going to vote for this measure.

        21                      Thank you.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        23       Saland in the affirmative.  Thank you.











                                                             
11211

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         2       Santiago.

         3                      SENATOR SANTIAGO:  No.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Sears.

         5       Senator Sears.

         6                      SENATOR SEARS:  Aye.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Seward.

         8                      SENATOR SEWARD:  Mr. President.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Seward to explain his vote.

        11                      SENATOR SEWARD:  Yes, Mr.

        12       President.  Like so many other members of this

        13       chamber, I too have agonized over this

        14       legislation in terms of what to do in terms of

        15       casting a vote.

        16                      On one hand, as a parent of a

        17       daughter myself, God forbid that she ever had to

        18       face a decision whether or not to have an

        19       abortion, I certainly would want to know and be

        20       a part of that decision, and my wife and I are

        21       working very hard to make sure that we have that

        22       type of relationship so that would occur.

        23                      On the other hand, I fully agree











                                                             
11212

         1       with those who would say you can not legislate

         2       parental/child communication.  I fully recognize

         3       that as much as we do not like to think about

         4       it, we have so many dysfunctional families in

         5       the state of New York where parents would not

         6       make the best decisions on behalf of their

         7       children.

         8                      But the legislation before us

         9       today by Senator Padavan and others, is an

        10       improved bill when compared to previous bills of

        11       this type.  This legislation today deals with

        12       those under the age of 16 years of age.  It

        13       deals with notification rather than consent and

        14       while still not a perfect bill -- particularly

        15       bothersome to me is the Family Court proceedings

        16       which I consider to be cumbersome, time

        17       consuming, unduly intimidating in many ways.

        18                      I'm going to support the

        19       legislation today, because I feel that it should

        20       be the state policy in the state of New York

        21       that parents be notified, that parents be

        22       involved in this crucial decision on the part of

        23       their child under the age of 16 years of age,











                                                             
11213

         1       and while not perfect, it is my hope that by the

         2       passage of this bill today, it will enhance and

         3       expedite serious discussions on developing a

         4       sensitive, workable law that will truly protect

         5       the young people of our state and their families

         6       alike.

         7                      I vote aye.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Seward in the affirmative.

        10                      Continue to call the roll.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Skelos

        12       recorded in the affirmative earlier today.

        13                      Senator Smith.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Smith to explain her vote.

        16                      SENATOR SMITH:  Mr. President, I

        17       come from a different perspective, someone who

        18       has worked closely with young women who are the

        19       product of dysfunctional families.  I have

        20       worked closely in counseling and in trying to -

        21       attempting to make them understand the realities

        22       of life and attempting to get them back into the

        23       mainstream.











                                                             
11214

         1                      They have also spoken to me of

         2       how they feel about the family courts and the

         3       court system and how they could not possibly go

         4       into a court to attempt to have an abortion or

         5       whatever else may be necessary for their own

         6       sanity in many cases.

         7                      And many of you do not realize

         8       that in dysfunctional families it may be the

         9       male in that household or the male that was once

        10       in the household who may be the father of that

        11       child, and that bothers me even more, and for

        12       those dysfunctional families and those young

        13       ladies who come from dysfunctional families, I

        14       must vote in the negative.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Smith in the negative.

        17                      Continue to call the roll.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Solomon.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Solomon to explain his vote.

        21                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Thank you, Mr.

        22       President.

        23                      Though I don't profess to have











                                                             
11215

         1       the wisdom of Solomon that was alluded to by

         2       Senator Connor, I've listened to this debate

         3       with interest.

         4                      Senator Saland pointed out the

         5       many flaws in this legislation.  Indeed, if this

         6       legislation passed in both houses and were

         7       signed by the Governor, it would probably be in

         8       litigation for many years in terms of some of

         9       the definitions we have, and some of the other

        10       problems that we have to deal with.

        11                      The people talk about Family

        12       Court.  How many people have looked at the lines

        13       outside of Family Court in Kings County before

        14       court's supposed to open?  Well, there may be a

        15       hundred people on line and you expect a young

        16       woman or fragile person 14 years old to be on

        17       that line.

        18                      I think Senator Cook said it

        19       best.  We're either going to tell the parents to

        20       make the decision one way or the other.  The

        21       14-year-old is either mature enough or not to

        22       make that decision, and it has to go both ways.

        23                      I think this piece of legislation











                                                             
11216

         1       has so many problems with it from both a statu

         2       tory point of view and a philosophical point of

         3       view that it leaves a lot of us with no

         4       alternative but to vote in the negative.

         5                      Thank you.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       Solomon in the negative.

         8                      Continue to call the roll.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Spano.

        10                      (Negative indication. )

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        12       Stachowski.

        13                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  No.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        15       Stafford.

        16                      SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        18       Stavisky.

        19                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  No.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Trunzo.

        21                      SENATOR TRUNZO:  Yes.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Tully.

        23                      SENATOR TULLY: Aye.











                                                             
11217

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Velella.

         2                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Volker.

         4                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Waldon.

         6                      (There was to response. )

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Wright.

         8                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  No.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        10       will call the absentees.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Espada.

        12                      (There was no response. )

        13                      Senator Gold.

        14                      (There was no response. )

        15                      Senator Hoffmann.

        16                      (There was no response. )

        17                      Senator Kruger.

        18                      (There was no response. )

        19                      Senator Waldon.

        20                      (There was no response. )

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

        22       the results.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 32, nays











                                                             
11218

         1       20.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         3       is passed.

         4                      Senator Goodman.

         5                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr. President,

         6       there will be an immediate meeting of the

         7       Committee on Investigations, Taxation and

         8       Government Operations in the Republican

         9       Conference Room, 332.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

        11       will be an immediate meeting of the Committee on

        12       Investigations, Taxation and Governmental

        13       Operations in the Majority Conference Room, Room

        14       332.  Immediate meeting of the Committee on

        15       Investigations, Taxation and Governmental

        16       Operations in the Majority Conference Room, Room

        17       332.

        18                      Secretary will continue to call

        19       the controversial calendar.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar number

        21       1457, substituted earlier today, by member of

        22       the Assembly Eve, Assembly Print 5950A, an act

        23       to amend the General Business Law, in relation











                                                             
11219

         1       to delinquent accounts.

         2                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         4       bill aside.

         5                      Chair recognizes Senator Nozzolio

         6       for an announcement.

         7                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  Thank you, Mr.

         8       President.  There will be a meeting of the Crime

         9       Victims, Crime and Corrections Committee in the

        10       Senate Majority Leader's Conference Room

        11       following Senator Goodman's committee, should be

        12       in about ten minutes.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Meeting

        14       of the Crime Victims and Crime and Correction

        15       Committee immediately following the Investiga

        16       tion, Taxation and Governmental Operations

        17       Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room

        18       332, approximately ten minutes.

        19                      Senator Paterson, why do you

        20       rise?

        21                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

        22       I asked for an explanation on Calendar Number

        23       1457.











                                                             
11220

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         2       was laid aside, Senator Paterson.

         3                      SENATOR PATERSON:  I -- what I

         4       would like to report is that I don't need an

         5       explanation on it.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         7       is laid aside anyway.  Thank you for your help,

         8       Senator Paterson.

         9                      Secretary will continue to call

        10       the controversial calendar.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1501, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 3377A, an

        13       act to amend the General Municipal Law, in

        14       relation to conflict of interest.

        15                      SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.

        16                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Explanation.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Seward, an explanation has been asked for

        19       jointly by Senator Paterson and Senator

        20       Stachowski.

        21                      SENATOR SEWARD:  Lay it aside

        22       temporarily.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the











                                                             
11221

         1       bill aside temporarily.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       1504, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 3789A, an

         4       act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in

         5       relation to making technical and clarifying

         6       amendments.

         7                      SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Larkin, an explanation of Calendar Number 1504

        10       has been asked for by the Deputy Minority

        11       Leader, Senator Paterson.

        12                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Senator

        13       Paterson, this bill makes some technical and

        14       clarifying changes in the real property tax

        15       administration.  It clarifies that city and

        16       county charters, tax acts, administrative codes

        17       may authorize a meeting of the boards of

        18       assessment review to be on a date other than the

        19       fourth Tuesday of May.

        20                      It specifies that state lands

        21       shall be assessed at the same uniform percentage

        22       of value as other property in the assessing unit

        23       following a reval' or an update.  It provides











                                                             
11222

         1       for the Board of Real Property Services which

         2       used to be known as E and A to establish the

         3       residential assessment ratios at least 60 days

         4       prior to the date for filing of the roll.

         5                      This is a program bill from

         6       Office of Real Property Services and we have had

         7       no memos in opposition.

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  O.K.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        10       will read the last section.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 17.  This

        12       act shall take effect immediately.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        14       roll.

        15                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes -

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

        18       the results when tabulated.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 52, nays 1,

        20       Senator Gold recorded in the negative.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        22       is passed.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number











                                                             
11223

         1       1505, substituted earlier today, by member of

         2       the Assembly Kaufman, Assembly Print 5954C, an

         3       act to amend the General Business Law, the

         4       Public Health Law and the Vehicle and Traffic

         5       Law, in relation to safety requirements.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Velella, an explanation of Calendar 1505 has

         9       been asked for by Senator Stachowski.

        10                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes, Mr.

        11       President.

        12                      This bill requires that in-line

        13       skaters or rollerblade skaters under the age of

        14       14 are required to wear helmets, requires that a

        15       notice be attached to in-line skates indicating

        16       that protective gear is required to be worn when

        17       skating, requires such notice in stores where

        18       in-line skates are sold, prohibits the use of

        19       in-line skates not equipped with stoppers and

        20       authorizes the Commissioner to adopt an in-line

        21       skating helmet safety program and conforms the

        22       requirements of the in-line skating to the

        23       bicycle law in this state, and also requires











                                                             
11224

         1       that the in-line skaters in this state wear the

         2       protective gear.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Velella, excuse the interruption.

         5                      Senator Saland, Senator Leibell,

         6       can we take the conversation out of the chamber,

         7       Senator Holland.  The Sergeant-at-Arms please

         8       make sure the conversations are taking place

         9       outside of the chamber.

        10                      Senator Stachowski?

        11                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Mr.

        12       President, if Senator Velella would yield to a

        13       couple of questions?

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Velella, would you yield?

        16                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

        17                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Senator, you

        18       said it's only the wearing of helmets for people

        19       under 14 and merely a warning on the skates or

        20       on the skate box that they should be -- that the

        21       users of the skates should be wearing all the

        22       other equipment, i.e., wrist guards, that sort

        23       of thing, and knee guards.











                                                             
11225

         1                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes, yes.

         2                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Now, if the

         3       Senator would yield to one other question.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Continue

         5       to yield, Senator Velella?

         6                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       continues to yield.

         9                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  It's a two

        10       part question.  One would be what would be the

        11       penalties to people who didn't wear this

        12       equipment, and who would enforce it and make

        13       sure like, would it be the police that would be

        14       picking up these kids, and what would be the

        15       penalty to them if they didn't wear it?

        16                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Well, like they

        17       do with the bicycle law, there can be tickets

        18       issued and summonses issued but it's more of a

        19       policeman's enforcing of the laws and telling

        20       young people that they should be wearing

        21       helmets.  I don't know of any catastrophes or

        22       unjust decisions that have been made or harsh

        23       penalties that have been imposed on young people











                                                             
11226

         1       who ride bicycles without helmets other than the

         2       policeman telling them, You got to get a helmet

         3       and warning them, and I don't know how many

         4       tickets have been issued in the state, but it's

         5       a matter of making the parents aware of the fact

         6       that their children can suffer major injuries if

         7       they don't wear protective gear and devices.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         9       will read the last section.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 17.  This

        11       act shall take effect January 1.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        13       roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

        16       the results when tabulated.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 53, nays 1,

        18       Senator Johnson recorded in the negative.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        20       is passed.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       1510, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4379A, an

        23       act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in











                                                             
11227

         1       relation to the powers of certain special

         2       patrolmen.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         4       will read the last section.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         6       act shall take effect immediately.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         8       roll.

         9                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        12       is passed.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       1522, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5378, an act

        15       to amend the State Finance Law, in relation to

        16       court facilities.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        18       bill aside for the day.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Lack

        20       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        21       Assembly Bill Number 8161A, and substitute it

        22       for the identical Calendar Number 1523.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:











                                                             
11228

         1       Substitution is ordered.  Secretary will read

         2       the title.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       1523, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,

         5       Assembly Print Number 8161A, an act to amend the

         6       Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, in relation to

         7       storage of alcoholic beverages.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Bill is

         9       before the house.  Secretary will read the last

        10       section.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 5.  This

        12       act shall take effect January 1st.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        14       roll.

        15                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        18       is passed.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       1524, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 5431, an

        21       act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

        22       clarifying and revising liability insurance

        23       requirements.











                                                             
11229

         1                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Velella, an explanation of Calendar Number 1524

         4       has been asked for by Senator Paterson.

         5                      SENATOR VELELLA:  In our existing

         6       law, there are directors and officers liability

         7       policies for different types of corporations,

         8       the business corporation, the not-for-profit

         9       corporation and a variety of different types of

        10       corporations.

        11                      This conforms all the various -

        12       and religious corporations are another one.

        13       This conforms all the various types of corpor

        14       ations so that insurance companies can write a

        15       directors' and officers' policy that will be -

        16       that will fit each one of those separate types

        17       of corporations rather than having a separate

        18       designating statute and different type of policy

        19       for each and every type of corporation.  It

        20       gives no further authority than to do that, than

        21       to allow them to write those types of policies

        22       for all different various corporations.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator











                                                             
11230

         1       Solomon.

         2                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Yes, will

         3       Senator Velella yield, please?

         4                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       yields.

         7                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Senator, under

         8       this legislation which I'm just looking at right

         9       now, has there been any -- has there been any

        10       study done or any information given to you

        11       regarding the change in rates this might have

        12       for not-for-profit corporations?

        13                      SENATOR VELELLA:  I'm sorry.

        14                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Any change in

        15       rates on not-for-profit corporations on

        16       directors' and officers' insurance as compared

        17       to private corporations?

        18                      SENATOR VELELLA:  No, it was my

        19       understanding that rates would be set and

        20       determined by the Department based on filings

        21       that would be made there.  This would just be a

        22       means of addressing the language within the

        23       policies so that directors and officers would be











                                                             
11231

         1       treated alike for the various corporations.

         2                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Will the

         3       Senator -

         4                      SENATOR VELELLA:  To answer your

         5       question, Senator, there has not been an

         6       independent study done on that.

         7                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Senator Velella

         8       yield, please, for another question?

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       continue to yield?  Senator continues to yield.

        11                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Senator, I'm

        12       looking at page 3, paragraph (k) -

        13                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

        14                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  -- where the

        15       duty to defend, where liability insurance

        16       policies or contracts in regard to certain

        17       classes of corporations have the duty to defend,

        18       and from the allocation of costs for legal costs

        19       attendant to such defense, so he may exempt the

        20       policies from the liability for legal costs to

        21       defend.

        22                      My question is this:  Will this

        23       provision subsequently allow another company to











                                                             
11232

         1       sell insurance to that same board of directors

         2       to cover legal costs if they are sued?

         3                      SENATOR VELELLA:  I don't know

         4       that this either allows or prevents it.  It

         5       would be a possibility that someone seeing the

         6       hole in coverage or lack of coverage might

         7       decide to offer a product in the marketplace to

         8       provide a policy that would be a gap kind of

         9       insurance for directors and officers.  I don't

        10       know honestly if that would be allowed under the

        11       existing law.

        12                      This bill doesn't create anything

        13       to do it, but I would assume that somebody that

        14       wanted to sell that product would go and file

        15       with the Department and get a rate approval or

        16       denial.

        17                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Yeah, Mr.

        18       President, if Senator Velella will yield.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       continues to yield.

        21                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

        22                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  My concern,

        23       Senator, is that in this case, that we might be











                                                             
11233

         1       opening up a situation where, in fact, there may

         2       not be coverage available because all the

         3       insurance companies offering this policy may end

         4       up offering the same type of policy where they

         5       don't offer this legal defense coverage.  The

         6       Superintendent may O.K. it, and then the

         7       companies may not offer it, and my concern is

         8       that there may not, in fact, be a product on the

         9       marketplace, or the Superintendent may have to

        10       O.K. a market, and the marketplace, we may have

        11       a window there where there's no coverage avail

        12       able for legal defenses which can be substantial

        13       in this type of lawsuit, and that's what I'm

        14       concerned about especially with this type of

        15       legislation.  If you believe, in fact, that that

        16       would be available or that they can purchase

        17       this type of insurance in view of the fact of

        18       the intent of this legislation, and that was

        19       stated on the floor, that might be more helpful,

        20       I think.  I'm concerned about that.

        21                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Well, I

        22       couldn't in good faith represent to you, of my

        23       own personal knowledge at this time, that this











                                                             
11234

         1       insurance coverage is available, but I can say

         2       that we are not creating any gap that a company

         3       could not do at the present time.  They could

         4       choose to withdraw from the market and choose to

         5       withdraw offering those types of policies.  I

         6       don't think we're doing anything to encourage

         7       that.  If anything, we would maybe be creating a

         8       market for an insurer to come in and provide

         9       that, as I said before, gap insurance.  Is it

        10       available now? I couldn't tell you in good

        11       faith.

        12                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  O.K. Thank

        13       you.  Mr. President, on the bill.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Solomon, on the bill.

        16                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  I have no

        17       problem with the intent of this legislation, but

        18       in terms of my questions and the answers from

        19       Senator Velella, my concerns are obvious that

        20       hopefully there is a product that would cover

        21       this loophole that could be created and again

        22       this loophole can only be created if the

        23       Superintendent implements this action through











                                                             
11235

         1       regulation which would, in fact, take away the

         2       coverage of legal costs, but I dare say -- hope

         3       that we would have companies that would offer

         4       that type of policy, and I would hope that they

         5       would be allowed to offer that policy under the

         6       laws and, as explained by Senator Velella, I

         7       hope that we don't have anything that prohibits

         8       it at this present time because that could be

         9       the one danger in this particular case

        10       especially for not-for-profit corporations which

        11       are, in many instances, strapped for cash and

        12       would not have funds readily available to pay

        13       for their own legal costs, and it would be a

        14       very important product to offer those

        15       corporations.

        16                      Thank you.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        18       will read the last section.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 8.  This

        20       act shall take effect on the 30th day.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        22       roll.

        23                      (The Secretary called the roll. )











                                                             
11236

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         3       is passed.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       1525, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5433.

         6                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  Lay it aside

         7       for the day.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         9       bill aside for the day.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       1527, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5479, an

        12       act to in enact the Persistent Child Predator

        13       Act.

        14                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Volker, an explanation of Calendar Number 1527

        17       has been asked for by the Deputy Minority

        18       Leader, Senator Paterson.

        19                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Mr. President,

        20       this bill, which is entitled part of -- which is

        21       termed the Persistent Child Sexual Predator Act

        22       is a continuation of a series of bills that we

        23       have passed during this session that toughens up











                                                             
11237

         1       sentencing rules in a number of areas of the law

         2       in New York, and I don't think many of us have

         3       completely recognized the enormity of what has

         4       already occurred at this session and which this

         5       bill represents another step in moving New

         6       York's penal laws toward a policy that takes

         7       people who have been persistent in, and what we

         8       call multiple felons, and subjects them to some

         9       severe sentencing.

        10                      What this bill does is to change

        11       the law or the statutes which presently would

        12       allow someone who is guilty of molestation of a

        13       child under 14 years old in a previous case and

        14       now is charged on a second time or in some cases

        15       possibly a third time, depending on clearly the

        16       situation when this -- when this crime occurs,

        17       instead of being subject to as little as two

        18       years in jail or a minimum of two to seven

        19       years, I believe it is, that person would be

        20       subject to a minimum of 15 to 25 years and could

        21       be subject to a life term which, in our jargon,

        22       would mean a maximum of 25 years to life.

        23                      This is a tough bill.  It is a











                                                             
11238

         1       recognition of the fact that sexual predators

         2       today have become such a problem in our society

         3       that it is believed that we should dramatically

         4       boost up the sentencing process and that's what

         5       is done here.

         6                      This is a Governor's program bill

         7       and it is a bill, I think, that we should look

         8       at very thoroughly as something that tries to

         9       deal with a severe problem and that is attacks

        10       on children in our society.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        12       will read the last section.

        13                      Excuse me.  Senator Leichter.

        14                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yes.  If

        15       Senator Volker would yield?

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       Volker, do you yield to a question from Senator

        18       Leichter?

        19                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator

        20       certainly -

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       yields.

        23                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Certainly











                                                             
11239

         1       crimes against young people, particularly sexual

         2       crimes, are very serious, must be treated

         3       seriously by our society, and people who are

         4       guilty of that must be severely punished.

         5       There's no argument on that.  I'm not so sure

         6       that there's an epidemic, as you have almost

         7       portrayed it, of sexual molestation.  I haven't

         8       seen figures that show that to be the case,

         9       although we've had one or two well-publicized

        10       tragic incidents.

        11                      But let me -- I just wanted to

        12       make clear exactly which sexual crimes become

        13       the basis for what could be a -- an A-1 felony

        14       indictment or a conviction.

        15                      SENATOR VOLKER:  First of all,

        16       these are crimes against children, understand,

        17       who are under 14 years of age.  That is the

        18       critical category, and these are the first

        19       offense which would be what today we would term

        20       a VFO means those crimes that would be

        21       considered in this state or in another state

        22       where a child is subjected to, for instance, a

        23       sexual assault, a molestation or whatever, and











                                                             
11240

         1       that's under sections -- Article 70, I believe

         2       it is of the Penal Law, and the person -- I'm

         3       sorry, yeah, Article 78, but under Section 130.

         4       30, and those are various subdivisions that

         5       relate to attacks on children, these are not

         6       minor offenses.  They are all what can be

         7       considered as serious offenses against children

         8       under 14 years of age.

         9                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President,

        10       if Senator Volker -

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Volker, you continue to yield?  Senator

        13       continues to yield.

        14                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  I appreciate

        15       your courtesy in always answering and answering

        16       candidly, but you're being very general today.

        17       What I want is specific, so these are serious

        18       crimes; these are serious offenses.

        19                      SENATOR VOLKER:  All right.  You

        20       want -

        21                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  What exactly,

        22       when you say an assault against a child?

        23                      SENATOR VOLKER:  All right.  Let











                                                             
11241

         1       me give you an example, a for instance.

         2                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Would it be

         3       rape, for example?

         4                      SENATOR VOLKER:  That's an

         5       example.

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  O.K.

         7                      SENATOR VOLKER:  You could have

         8       sodomy; there would be a whole lot of offenses

         9       against a child.

        10                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Could it be a

        11       crime of exposing oneself to a child?

        12                      SENATOR VOLKER:  No, no.

        13                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Could there be

        14       another child involved?

        15                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Not -- crimes

        16       against the body of the child itself.  I think

        17       obviously molestation -- I shouldn't say

        18       obviously.  What we're talking about is a crime

        19       against the body of the child itself, himself or

        20       herself.

        21                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Are all of

        22       them felonies?

        23                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes, absolutely,











                                                             
11242

         1       no question they're felonies.  You must be

         2       convicted of a previous child molestation felony

         3       in order to be subject to this, and this is

         4       another felony now, and we are not changing the

         5       rules, that is the felony itself.  In other

         6       words, the felonies are already established.

         7       What we're changing here is the sentence.

         8                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  O.K.  Could it

         9        -- could it include, for instance, just sort of

        10       groping at a child, if you -- if you touch a

        11       child in -- under the age of 14 or touch the

        12       child's backside?

        13                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Absolutely not.

        14       You have to have much more serious -- my counsel

        15       here outlined the rape second, rape first, where

        16       the victim -- these are victims are less than

        17       11, sodomy second, sodomy first, again with a

        18       victim who is less than 11; sexual abuse, and

        19       again you understand, the person is less than

        20       11.

        21                      I mean you have to have more than

        22       just a groping, as you know.  Sexual abuse in

        23       the first degree is an abuse that deals directly











                                                             
11243

         1       with the body of that child.  Section 1 (c) of

         2       130.70 is aggravated abuse first and that is on

         3       a child who is less than 11 years of age again,

         4       so you're talking not about minor violations

         5       here.  You're not talking about misdemeanors;

         6       you're talking about serious violations.

         7                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President,

         8       if Senator Volker will continue to yield,

         9       please?

        10                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Sure.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       continues to yield.

        13                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, I've

        14       been handed a chart here.  I don't have the

        15       section to which it relates, but it shows that

        16       sexual abuse in the second degree is a

        17       misdemeanor.

        18                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Right.

        19                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Now, I asked

        20       you whether misdemeanors are included, and you

        21       said absolutely not.

        22                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Right.

        23                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Based on what











                                                             
11244

         1       I now have in my hands, does it appear that we

         2       are -- you are including a misdemeanor?

         3                      SENATOR VOLKER:  No.  Sexual

         4       abuse in the first degree is in the misde

         5       meanor.  Sexual abuse in the first degree is a

         6       felony.

         7                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  A felony.

         8                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Right.

         9                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  But you sure

        10       this does not include sexual abuse in the second

        11       degree?

        12                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Absolutely not.

        13                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Could you wait

        14       just one second, Senator, while maybe our

        15       counsels could just check on this?

        16                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Senator, I just

        17       pointed out to my counsel in that one instance

        18       you're right that in that one instance -- sexual

        19       abuse in the second degree, I'm sorry, but I was

        20       under the impression in that one case, sexual

        21       abuse in the second degree, which is a Class A

        22       misdemeanor and this is on a person under 11

        23       years of age, right?











                                                             
11245

         1                      VOICE OF COUNSEL:  Less than 14.

         2                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Less than 14

         3       years of age.  In that one case this could

         4       subject that person to the -- to the provision

         5       of this statute.

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator

         7       Volker, doesn't that seem to you quite extreme?

         8       I mean, if I read your bill that if you commit

         9       that particular sexual abuse in the second

        10       degree, which is a misdemeanor, you do it the

        11       second time -

        12                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Right.

        13                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  -- you're

        14       going to send that person to a sentence of 15 to

        15       25 years to life?

        16                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Possible it

        17       could be, that's correct, and it is -- first of

        18       all, there are comparatively few people that are

        19       convicted of that kind of crime and, if they

        20       are, remember we're talking about a second or

        21       third or multiple offense here.  Many of the

        22       people involved in these kinds of crimes are

        23       involved in multiple offenses over a period of











                                                             
11246

         1       years.

         2                      If this bill passes now, what

         3       will happen is the next one could subject them

         4       to a severe penalty.  Nobody says that they have

         5       to be necessarily subjected to severe penalty,

         6       but if they are convicted of these kinds of

         7       offenses, then they would have to be sentenced

         8       in effect to a minimum of 15 years in jail, and

         9       you're correct.

        10                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, would

        11       you consider amending the bill and taking out

        12       the misdemeanor? I mean I just think that's

        13       extreme.  I have no problem somebody commits

        14       rape a second time or commits sodomy a second

        15       time, commits a serious aggravated sexual abuse,

        16       but somebody who commits a misdemeanor -- and

        17       it's bad; nobody is saying, Oh, well, this is

        18       insignificant.  It is significant -- that person

        19       should be punished if he does it the second

        20       time.  It ought to be a felony, ought to go to

        21       jail, but 15 years to 25, minimum of 15 years

        22       for having committed a misdemeanor the second

        23       time?  I -- I think that's unreasonable.











                                                             
11247

         1                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yeah, Senator, I

         2       certainly would be willing to talk to the

         3       Governor if you could talk to the Assembly about

         4       maybe this bill would go if we amend it, that

         5       would be fine.  My answer is, though, despite

         6       the fact that it's a misdemeanor, it's a Class A

         7       misdemeanor, a serious crime against the person

         8       of a young child.

         9                      It may seem severe, but I think

        10       these are -- these are tough and serious

        11       problems, and I guess my response is certainly

        12       we would look at that, but I think still these

        13       are all serious crimes, and I think we have to

        14       take serious and strong measures under the

        15       circumstances that we're in.

        16                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President,

        17       on the -- on the bill.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Leichter, on the bill.

        20                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  I hadn't seen

        21       this bill before, but one of the things I wanted

        22       to check into is whether we're casting such a

        23       wide net that people who are really not a major











                                                             
11248

         1       threat to society are being sent to -- to jail

         2       for extremely long sentences.

         3                      One of the reasons I voted

         4       against this house version of the "Megan Law"

         5       which now may become law because I understand

         6       the Assembly is going to go with it, is that we

         7       included misdemeanors, we included acts that

         8       really were not serious.  Here, if this bill

         9       related to rape one, rape two, sodomy one,

        10       sodomy two, that would be fine, but you are now

        11       including a situation where a 17-year-old who

        12       fondles a -- a child under the age of 14 commits

        13       a misdemeanor.

        14                      That's certainly -- it's a wrong

        15       act; it's a violation.  It should be punished,

        16       and so on.  Does it a second time.  You going to

        17       send him to jail for a minimum of 15 years, 15

        18       to 25 years?  I think it's just unreasonable.  I

        19       mean I know it looks good, we're going to be

        20       tough and we're going to be harsh and we're

        21       going -- we're -- we're going to take care of

        22       the miscreants in our society, but there's got

        23       to be some element of justice, some element of











                                                             
11249

         1       fairness, some element of reason, some element

         2       of sense.

         3                      I mean if we're just doing this

         4       politically and beating our chests and, Look how

         5       much we're doing, well, then maybe throw any act

         6       in and say we're going to send people to jail

         7       15, 25 years.  I -- I assume there'll be support

         8       among the public for doing this, but I think,

         9       well, we're becoming a pretty harsh and a pretty

        10       oppressive society, and I just want to say this

        11        -- this house which is so concerned about, you

        12       know, abuse to children when it's reflected in

        13       "Megan's Law" or reflected in this bill, that

        14       you didn't seem to have much compunction about

        15       cutting $90 million out of the budget for

        16       protective and preventive services trying to

        17       keep children from being abused whether in their

        18       home or in the foster home or in some other

        19       setting.  That's going to create much more

        20       danger, much more harm, much more abuse to

        21       children.

        22                      I know it's tough to vote against

        23       these bills, and somebody can have a field day











                                                             
11250

         1       with me saying, Oh, he voted against a bill

         2       which was meant to protect children under the

         3       age of 14, but it's just wrong.  It is wrong to

         4       say that a second time you commit a misdemeanor

         5       which is still considered a relatively minor

         6       offense, we're going to send somebody to jail 15

         7       to 25 years.  I can't vote for that.

         8                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Mr. President.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Volker.

        11                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Just one quick

        12       comment.

        13                      Senator Leichter, I guess

        14       sometimes I agree with your assessment on a

        15       number of things.  I would have to correct one

        16       thing though.  I don't think I would consider

        17       sexual abuse in the second degree to be a

        18       comparatively minor offense.  This is on a child

        19       of 14 years of age and under, and you're

        20       probably talking about somebody who -- and

        21       depending on a situation that would certainly I

        22       think come out, who is involved in a number of

        23       offenses, and even a Class A misdemeanor is











                                                             
11251

         1       certainly a serious offense.

         2                      That's something we will

         3       certainly look at, and I guess I would ask you

         4       the question -- let me finish, Senator.

         5                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Sure.

         6                      SENATOR VOLKER:  I think before

         7       you cast "Megan's Law" and all these other

         8       things into perspective -- and I'm one of those

         9       people that was one of the counters that you

        10       were, and I was involved in the largest rape

        11       investigation in upstate New York's history many

        12       years ago, as I've told you.

        13                      One thing we've learned over the

        14       years about sexual predators and, as we learned

        15       in the Rochester murders, that the profile of

        16       sexual predators is -- first of all, when you

        17       said is it epidemic, Senator, it is.  Let me

        18       tell you, it is epidemic.  The numbers of

        19       everything I've seen that indicates that what we

        20       thought of years ago was nothing compared to

        21       what's happening today; but what the case in

        22       Rochester showed to us, here we had a child

        23       molester who was involved in cases up in the











                                                             
11252

         1       North Country and, because of that was one of

         2       the reasons why he wasn't looked at in terms of

         3       the killing of a group of women.  Unfortunately,

         4       we find that the sort of people who are involved

         5       in this tend to be people who can transfer over

         6       to other forms of victim exploitation.

         7                      I guess my answer to you is, that

         8       since we don't have the answer at this point by

         9       any means how to handle these people from the -

        10       the counseling point of view, and so forth,

        11       although we're trying to deal with that as best

        12       we can, in many cases when we're dealing with

        13       children, the best answer at this point, no

        14       question, is to set up such a severe penalty

        15       that we send a message way beyond something that

        16       we would normally do, and I think that's what

        17       this bill does.

        18                      I think it attempts to deal with

        19       a problem that I guess I would say to you, I

        20       guess I would say to you is of epidemic

        21       proportions, and I think it's serious enough to

        22       take what would amount to draconian measures.

        23                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President,











                                                             
11253

         1       if Senator Volker would yield, please.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Volker, do you yield, please?

         4                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Sure.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Volker will yield.

         7                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, am I

         8       correct, and I'm not expert in this area and I

         9       concede your knowledge in this area and that's

        10       partly the reason I'm asking you, sexual abuse

        11       in the second degree misdemeanor, if a 17-year

        12       sold gropes at a female under the age of 14,

        13       touches her in her private parts, is that not

        14       sexual abuse in the second degree?

        15                      SENATOR VOLKER:  It could be,

        16       Senator.  It could be, in rare circumstances,

        17       that's true, but normally speaking, it is a more

        18       serious offense than that, but you're right, it

        19       could be.

        20                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Right.  So

        21       unfortunately, these are things that have been

        22       happening in schools among young people for

        23       certainly many years.  They're at street corners











                                                             
11254

         1       or in the school or somebody like that and

         2       somebody misbehaves, nobody is justifying or

         3       sanctioning this behavior, but he reaches for

         4       somebody under the age of 14 and touches her in

         5       an offensive manner but doesn't do any other

         6       harm and then he's convicted of a Class A

         7       misdemeanor, as he should be.  Then he does it

         8       again.  Now, you're saying you're going to send

         9       him to jail for 15 years? I -- I can't -- I

        10       can't understand that.

        11                      But let me also ask you this

        12       question, Senator:  Where's the epidemic? Where

        13       is the -- where -- where are your facts and

        14       figures?  I mean you and I have discussed this

        15       before, the tendency in this house to rely on

        16       anecdotal evidence.  Where is -- where is your

        17        -- where is your statistics as to that we've

        18       had an enormous increase in crimes, sexual

        19       crimes against young women?

        20                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Senator, I

        21       realize that myself, my colleagues, Senator,

        22       where have we been? Have you been noticing the

        23       pictures of people over in the Capitol who have











                                                             
11255

         1       been grabbed and killed and taken away? Senator,

         2       I -- I can't -- what is the Adam Walsh -- the

         3       institute that's been set up, the numbers of

         4       young people who have been kidnapped right off

         5       the streets in this state alone, incredibly have

         6       multiplied over the years.

         7                      Now, we used to think that that

         8       sort of thing only happened in the big cities of

         9       this country.  All you have to do is look out

        10       there to see that it's just not happening in the

        11       big cities.  Senator, no one that I know of

        12       that's involved in criminal justice believes

        13       that the situation, as far as sexual predators

        14       is concerned, has not changed over the last ten

        15       to 15 years.

        16                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  You are taking

        17       the -

        18                      SENATOR VOLKER:  The feeling very

        19       strongly is, and the evidence, Senator, is there

        20       in the fact that the general public is

        21       organizing itself saying that society can't

        22       protect them from what is going on and that is

        23       why the institutes have been set up.  That's why











                                                             
11256

         1       the Missing Children Alliance has been set up.

         2       That's why we have all these people around here

         3       lobbying in behalf of young people, lobbying in

         4       behalf of people who -- who have been attacked;

         5       and, by the way, Senator, you and I participated

         6       in hearings across the state here a few years

         7       ago on the issue of -- of child sex attacks, one

         8       of the most chilling hearings I've ever held

         9       since I've been in the Legislature, much less

        10       chairman of Codes, that pointed out that the

        11       number of offenses against children in families

        12       alone was absolutely astronomical.

        13                      So I -- I can only tell you,

        14       Senator, all the figures I have ever seen and

        15       all the information that I have ever gotten is

        16        -- indicates to me that this issue, that this

        17       issue of child sex offenses has become an

        18       enormous problem and, if we don't deal with it,

        19       it will become an even bigger problem in the

        20       future.

        21                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, I

        22       take it your answer to my question, though, is

        23       you do not have any statistics, you have no











                                                             
11257

         1       data, but you do have some anecdotal evidence?

         2                      SENATOR VOLKER:  The answer is

         3       no, I have -- we have -- if you want, we will

         4       get you thousands of pages if you really want to

         5       that show the numbers of offenses that are

         6       involved, but, Senator, all you have to do, I

         7       suggest when you go home tonight it will be

         8       doubtful that we'll watch a television broadcast

         9       without some sort of indication of something

        10       that happened some place in this country or this

        11       state involving sexual attacks on children.

        12                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, let

        13       me say to you, if you read Freud, you'll read

        14       about all the instances of sexual abuse that

        15       occurred within the family, and that was at the

        16       turn of the Century.  I'm not aware that we've

        17       had any radical great increase.  I -- we have

        18       cases.  There may even have been some increase,

        19       but whether there has been a statistical -

        20       statistical evidence showing that there has been

        21       a significant increase per capita, I've never

        22       seen those figures and, if you have it, I'd be

        23       delighted to see it.











                                                             
11258

         1                      Let me just ask you one other

         2       question if you'd be good enough to yield.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Volker, you continue to yield?  Senator Volker

         5       continues to yield.

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Has this bill

         7       been submitted to the District Attorneys

         8       Association; has it been submitted to the

         9       Supreme Court Justices; do we have any comments

        10       by bar associations on this bill?

        11                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Senator, as far

        12       as I know we have -- not me.  This is not -

        13       this is a Governor's program bill; it was not a

        14       bill that we had developed, but let me suggest

        15       to you that I think you're aware that my

        16       committee has been looking into this issue, in

        17       fact, introduced a bill before the committee

        18       that we were talking about, in fact have

        19       continued to, and I think we will have hearings

        20       on the issue of sexual predators.

        21                      We have submitted a number of

        22       bills to the various DAs, and so forth, and to

        23       my knowledge, I don't know whether the











                                                             
11259

         1       Governor's office has submitted -- my guess is

         2       they have, because on this agenda and this

         3       calendar is a bill that the DAs are very, very

         4       interested in.  It's part of a whole package of

         5       bills.

         6                      As far as whether we have

         7       received comments or not, that I'm not aware

         8       of.  I don't know if the Governor's office is or

         9       not, but as to whether we have received anything

        10       from DAs and judges, no, we haven't.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  All right.

        12       Just finally again, on the bill.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Leichter again, on the bill.

        15                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  I have

        16       difficulty understanding the rationale and the

        17       sense of a bill that says that when you commit a

        18       rape for the second time, you get sentenced to

        19       15 to 25 years which doesn't bother me at all,

        20       but if you grope at a woman under the age of 14

        21       and you do that twice, a misdemeanor, you get

        22       sentenced for exactly the same term as you would

        23       if you had committed rape twice.











                                                             
11260

         1                      Does that make sense? I'm just

         2       sorry that we just seem to be playing to the

         3       gallery instead of having serious workable

         4       criminal legislation.  I just find that, in this

         5       respect, I think that this bill just goes far

         6       off base, and I think it's unfortunate.

         7                      I think you ought to amend it,

         8       Senator Volker, whether it's a Governor's bill

         9       or not.  You know it's not going to pass the

        10       Assembly, but maybe that's what the Governor

        11       wants, and he'll have another 30-second sound

        12       bite, but amend it, take out the sexual abuse

        13       for a misdemeanor.  Sexual abuse one which is a

        14       "D" felony, maybe shorten the period on that

        15       and I think you've got a bill that I think

        16       people would say makes some sense, but I think

        17       this bill does not.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        19       will read the last section.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        21       act shall take effect on the first day of

        22       November.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the











                                                             
11261

         1       roll.

         2                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

         4       the results when tabulated.

         5                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator would like

         6       to explain her vote.

         7                      SENATOR ABATE:  I'd like to

         8       explain my vote.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Abate, to explain your vote?

        11                      SENATOR ABATE:  Yes, I'd like to

        12       explain my vote.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Abate, to explain her vote.

        15                      SENATOR ABATE:  I would very much

        16       have liked to support this piece of legislation

        17       but because sexual abuse in the second degree as

        18       an "A" misdemeanor is included, I will not be

        19       able to, and I hope that Senator Volker would,

        20       in the future, consider eliminating the "A"

        21       misdemeanor.  I mean all of us know that certain

        22       sex offenders, recidivists, are very dangerous

        23       to society, but we have to look very carefully











                                                             
11262

         1       when we remove the discretion from the judge and

         2       say to that judge, when someone is convicted

         3       twice of a crime, that they have no discretion

         4       but to sentence that individual to 15 to 25

         5       years to life, and I see many cases in court

         6       where the sexual abuse of the second degree

         7       which is an "A" misdemeanor, kids upon kids,

         8       situations on the subway where someone is

         9       accused of touching someone's buttocks or

        10       breast, that could happen twice on a subway,

        11       again the sexual abuse in the second degree

        12       could be more serious, but there are occasions

        13       when people are convicted of what I call, I mean

        14       intolerant, terrible behavior, but I'm not

        15       saying, suggesting that someone should be given

        16       a life sentence for that behavior.

        17                      I could support this bill if it

        18       were amended and eliminated the "A" misdemeanor

        19       charges.  Again, what we need to do is produce

        20       longer sentences for recidivists and what we're

        21       doing is to take away the discretion from the

        22       judge.  It should be done carefully for the most

        23       violent offenders, the most heinous offenders











                                                             
11263

         1       and the most dangerous offenders.

         2                      This bill is too broad and, for

         3       this reason, I can not support it.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

         5       the results.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

         7       the negative on Calendar Number 1527 are

         8       Senators Abate, Leichter and Paterson.  Ayes 51,

         9       nays 3.

        10                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        12       is passed.

        13                      Senator Skelos, we have some

        14       housekeeping.  You want to return to motions and

        15       resolutions?

        16                      Chair recognizes Senator Gold.

        17                      SENATOR GOLD:  Thank you very

        18       much.

        19                      On behalf of Senator Stachowski

        20       involved in other work right now, I wish to call

        21       up his Print 1671A, recalled from the Assembly,

        22       which is now at the desk.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary











                                                             
11264

         1       will read the title.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       737, by Senator Stachowski, Senate Print 1671A,

         4       an act to amend the General Municipal Law.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Gold.

         7                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President, I

         8       now move to reconsider the vote by which this

         9       bill has passed -- was passed, period.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

        11       to reconsider the vote by which the bill passed

        12       the house.  The Secretary will call the roll on

        13       reconsideration.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        15       reconsideration. )

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Gold.

        19                      SENATOR GOLD:  Now, Mr.

        20       President, in order to keep the chamber moving

        21       at a proper pace and in order not to disturb

        22       Senator Stachowski who is involved in other very

        23       serious work at the present time, I offer the











                                                             
11265

         1       following amendments and move their adoption and

         2       ask the bill retain its place on the calendar.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         4       Amendments are received and adopted.  Bill will

         5       retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.

         6                      Senator Skelos.

         7                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Yes, Mr.

         8       President, would you first recognize Senator

         9       Maziarz.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Chair

        11       recognizes Senator Maziarz.

        12                      SENATOR MAZIARZ:  Mr. President,

        13       I'd ask unanimous consent to be recorded

        14       negative on Calendar Number 1505, please.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

        16       objection and hearing no objection, Senator

        17       Maziarz will be recorded in the negative on

        18       Calendar Number 1505 -- 1-5-0-5.

        19                      SENATOR SKELOS:  And, Mr.

        20       President, prior to recognizing Senator Present

        21       for some housekeeping, there will be an

        22       immediate meeting of the Finance Committee in

        23       Room 332 of the Capitol.











                                                             
11266

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Immediate

         2       meeting of the Finance Committee in the Majority

         3       Conference Room, Room 332.  Immediate meeting of

         4       the Senate Finance Committee in the Majority

         5       Conference Room, Room 332.

         6                      Senator Present.

         7                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         8       on behalf of Senator Bruno, I wish to call up

         9       his Print 5416, recalled from the Assembly which

        10       is now at the desk.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        12       will read the title.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       1460, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate

        15       Print Number 5416, an act to amend the Tax Law

        16       and Chapter 272 of the Laws of 1991.

        17                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        18       I now move to reconsider the vote by which this

        19       bill was passed.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        21       roll on reconsideration.

        22                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        23       reconsideration. )











                                                             
11267

         1                      THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.

         2                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         3       it's restored to third place reading.  I offer

         4       the following amendments.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         6       Amendments are received and adopted, Senator

         7       Present.

         8                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         9       on behalf of Senator Padavan, I wish to call up

        10       Print Number 4753, recalled from the Assembly

        11       which is now at the desk.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       1516, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 4753, an

        14       act to amend the General Municipal Law, in

        15       relation to providing coverage for injuries.

        16                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        17       I now move to reconsider the vote by which this

        18       bill was passed.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        20       will call the roll on reconsideration.

        21                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        22       reconsideration.)

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 55.











                                                             
11268

         1                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         2       I now offer the following amendments.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         4       Amendments are received and adopted.

         5                      Senator Present.

         6                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         7       on behalf of Senator Tully, on page 7,

         8       Supplemental Calendar, I offer the following

         9       amendments to Calendar 1528, Senate Print 5480,

        10       and ask that it retain its place on the Third

        11       Reading Calendar.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        13       Amendments are received and adopted.  The bill

        14       will retain its place on the Third Reading

        15       Calendar.

        16                      Senator Present.

        17                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        18       on behalf of Senator Goodman, I wish to call up

        19       his bill, Print 3419, recalled from the Assembly

        20       which is now at the desk.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        22       will read the title.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number











                                                             
11269

         1       739, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 3419, an

         2       act to amend the General City Law and others, in

         3       relation to authorizing the establishment of the

         4       New York City Tribunal.

         5                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

         6       I now move to reconsider the vote by which this

         7       bill was passed.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         9       will call the roll on reconsideration.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        11       reconsideration.)

        12                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President,

        13       I offer the following amendments.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        15       Amendments are received and adopted.  Senator

        16       Skelos, we have one substitution at the desk.

        17                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Please make the

        18       substitution.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Ask the

        20       Secretary to read.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 4,

        22       Senator Holland moves to discharge from the

        23       Committee on Rules Assembly 3037A and substitute











                                                             
11270

         1       it for the identical Calendar Number 515.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         3       Substitution is ordered.

         4                      Senator Skelos.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,

         6       would you please recognize Senator Paterson.

         7                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

         8       on behalf of Senator Connor who has handed up a

         9       memorandum, and there is a memorandum to alter

        10       the -- to provide notice of Senator Connor's

        11       intention to alter the rules, the intention will

        12       be to change the rules of the Senate on July 29,

        13       1995 which would require one day's notice under

        14       Rule XI, and the -

        15                      SENATOR SKELOS:  July 29th, I

        16       won't be here.

        17                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Sorry, Mr.

        18       President.  It's July 29th.  I'm just thinking

        19       ahead.

        20                      SENATOR SKELOS:  June 29th.

        21                      SENATOR PATERSON:  I know.  It's

        22       June 29th, Mr. Senator, Mr. President.  Now, the

        23       rules would be altered so that the fourth











                                                             
11271

         1       Thursday in June rather than the second Tuesday

         2       in April would be the last day for motions to

         3       discharge, motions for discharge, and under Rule

         4       XI Senator Connor intends to move to discharge

         5       Senate Bill 5519 from the Committee on Rules.

         6       This bill relates to increasing the minimum wage

         7       here in the state of New York.

         8                      Mr. President, I'd like to note

         9       that tomorrow, June 29th, will be the fifth

        10       Thursday in the month of June.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        12       record will reflect, Senator Paterson, that

        13       you're filing a notice of intention to bring a

        14       motion to change the rules tomorrow.

        15                      Senator Skelos.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        17       if we could continue regular order.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        19       will continue to call the controversial

        20       calendar, Supplemental Calendar 1.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       1529, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5491, an

        23       act to amend Chapter 737 of the Laws of 1994.











                                                             
11272

         1                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Lay aside.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         3       bill aside.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       1530, by the Senate Committee on Rules, an act

         6       to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and the

         7       Public Authorities Law, in relation to peace

         8       officer status.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        10       will read the last section.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        12       act shall take effect immediately.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        14       roll.

        15                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 55.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        18       is passed.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       1532, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5499, an

        21       act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law Reform

        22       Act of 1995.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary











                                                             
11273

         1       will read the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 11.  This

         3       act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         5       roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 55.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         9       bill's passed.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       1536, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5517, an

        12       act to amend the Tax Law and Chapter 190 of the

        13       Laws of 1990, amending the Business Corporation

        14       Law.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        16       will read the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        18       act shall take effect on the same date as such

        19       chapter of 1995.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        21       roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Could we have











                                                             
11274

         1       an explanation?

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Withdraw

         3       the roll call.

         4                      Senator DiCarlo, an explanation

         5       of Calendar Number 1536 has been asked for by

         6       the Deputy Majority Leader, Senator Paterson.

         7                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Thank you, Mr.

         8       President.

         9                      This is a technical chap...

        10       amendment to the chapter to a bill which

        11       previously passed both houses, to repeal the New

        12       York City sales tax on interior design

        13       services.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        15       will read the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        17       act shall take effect -

        18                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  -- on the same

        20       date as such chapter.

        21                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        22       if we could just lay that aside temporarily.

        23       Senator Leichter is at the Finance Committee











                                                             
11275

         1       meeting.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         3       bill aside temporarily.

         4                      Secretary continue to call the

         5       controversial calendar, Supplemental Calendar

         6       Number 1.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Goodman

         8       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

         9       Assembly Bill Number 8286 and substitute it for

        10       the identical Calendar Number 1538.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        12       Substitution is ordered.  The bill is high.  Lay

        13       the bill aside.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Goodman

        15       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        16       Assembly Bill Number 8285, and substitute it for

        17       the identical Calendar Number 1539.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        19       Substitution is ordered.  The bill is high.  Lay

        20       the bill aside.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       1540, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5525, an

        23       act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991











                                                             
11276

         1       amending the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law.

         2                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Paterson.

         5                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Could we have

         6        -- we have a couple of bills, this one and the

         7       one we just discussed, and also Calendar Number

         8       1532 that we just passed, Senator Leichter had

         9       asked to debate those bills and what's

        10       complicating the issues is that Senator Leichter

        11       is in the Finance Committee right now, so I'm

        12       wondering if we can just put these bills over

        13       for just a few minutes until the Finance

        14       Committee has completed its business.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Paterson, we have a problem with 1532.  That

        17       bill is out of the house and don't have any

        18       control of it at this point, but we certainly

        19       can honor your request relative to Senator

        20       Skelos' bill.

        21                      SENATOR SKELOS:  1540 is my

        22       bill.  I'll lay that aside temporarily pending

        23       the return of Senator Leichter from the Finance











                                                             
11277

         1       Committee.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  O.K. 1540

         3       will be laid aside temporarily.

         4                      Senator Skelos, that completes

         5       the controversial calendar excepting the two

         6       bills that have been laid aside temporarily.

         7                      Senator Paterson, why do you

         8       rise?

         9                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

        10       are we sure that Calendar 1532 is out of the

        11       house, because it just passed a second ago.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  It's

        13       gone.  The box is empty, Senator Paterson.

        14       They're gone.

        15                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Could we stand

        16       at ease.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        18       Senate will stand at ease for a few moments.

        19                      (The Senate stood at ease from

        20       4:37 to 4:56 p.m.)

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:

        22       Senator Skelos.

        23                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,











                                                             
11278

         1       on two of Senator Leichter's lay asides, we've

         2       had a discussion with him and he has no

         3       objection at this time to the bills being called

         4       up and certainly, if anybody else wants to ask a

         5       question or debate the bill, they certainly

         6       can.  So will you please call up Calendar Number

         7       1536 by Senator DiCarlo.

         8                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  Secretary will

         9       read.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       1536, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5517, an

        12       act to amend the Tax Law and Chapter 190 of the

        13       Laws of 1990.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:  Read

        15       the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        17       act shall take effect on the same date as such

        18       chapter.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:  Call

        20       the roll.

        21                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:  Bill

        23       is passed.











                                                             
11279

         1                      Senator -

         2                      SENATOR SKELOS:  1540.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:

         4       Secretary will read.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         6       1540, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5525, an

         7       act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:  Last

         9       section.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        11       act shall take effect immediately.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:  Call

        13       the roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 55.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:  The

        17       bill is passed.

        18                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Would you

        19       recognize Senator Paterson, please.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:

        21       Senator Paterson.

        22                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

        23       again on behalf of Senator Connor who wants to











                                                             
11280

         1       provide notice of his intention to alter the

         2       rules of June 29th in order to, under Rule XI,

         3       specifically to amend the rules to allow for a

         4       day's notice and the change of the last day to

         5       offer motions to discharge from the second

         6       Tuesday to the last Thursday in June which is

         7       the fifth Thursday, and at that time he will

         8       move to discharge from the Rules Committee

         9       Senate Bill 5519 which relates to raising the

        10       minimum wage in the state of New York.

        11                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Senate will

        12       continue to stand at ease.

        13                      Is there any housekeeping at the

        14       desk?

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT NOZZOLIO:

        16       Senate will stand at ease.

        17                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

        18       I thought I would announce now when we adjourn

        19       today, there will be an immediate conference of

        20       the Minority in the Minority Conference Room,

        21       Room 315 in the Capitol.

        22                      (The Senate stood at ease from

        23       4:59 to 5:15 p.m.)











                                                             
11281

         1                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         3       Senate will come to order.

         4                      Chair recognizes Senator Skelos.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Would you please

         6       recognize Senator Maltese.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Maltese.

         9                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Mr. President,

        10       with reference to the Senate Resolution

        11       Calendar, Resolution Number JL1770 it's a

        12       resolution welcoming his Holiness Pope John

        13       Paul.  I've been requested, and I'm pleased to

        14       open that resolution to any members who may not

        15       be on, if you agree, Mr. President.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Skelos.

        19                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Will you please,

        20       on the regular calendar, Calendar Number 515 by

        21       Senator Holland, it's indicated that it's high.

        22       I believe there's an Assembly substitution that

        23       would make the bill live if we could bring it up











                                                             
11282

         1       at this time.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Skelos, Calendar Number 515, you're correct, was

         4        -- there's a substitution at the desk.  That

         5       was previously substituted, so the bill is

         6       live.  I'll ask the Secretary to read the title

         7       of the bill at this time.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       515, substituted earlier today, by member of the

        10       Assembly Colman, Assembly Print 3037A, an act to

        11       amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to

        12       designating security officers.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        14       will read the last section.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        16       act shall take effect immediately.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        18       roll.

        19                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

        22        -- or excuse me, the bill is passed.

        23                      Senator Skelos.











                                                             
11283

         1                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President, I

         2        -- I believe we have messages on five bills,

         3       for the information of the Minority, if we can

         4       now bring them up.  First one is Calendar Number

         5       537.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  You're

         7       correct, Senator Skelos.  There is, or there are

         8       five messages of necessity on Calendars Number

         9       537, 554, 784, 1019 and 1051 at the desk.

        10                      Senator Skelos.

        11                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Would you call

        12       up Calendar Number 537, Senate Bill Number

        13       1098A.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        15       will read the title of Calendar Number 537.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        17       537, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print Number

        18       1098A, an act to amend the General Municipal

        19       Law, in relation to service award programs for

        20       firefighters.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator?

        22                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move we accept

        23       the message.











                                                             
11284

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

         2       to accept the message of necessity at the desk.

         3       All those in favor signify by saying aye.

         4                      (Response of "Aye.")

         5                      Opposed nay.

         6                      (There was no response. )

         7                      The message is accepted.

         8       Secretary will read the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        10       act shall take effect on the first day of

        11       September.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        13       roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        17       is passed.

        18                      Senator Skelos.

        19                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        20       call up Calendar Number 554, Senate 2767B.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        22       will read the title of Calendar Number 554.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number











                                                             
11285

         1       554, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 2767B, an

         2       act to amend Chapter 207 of the Laws of 1994,

         3       relating to incorporating the Twin District

         4       Volunteer Firefighters' Benevolent Association.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         6       is there a message at the desk?

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There is

         8       a message at the desk.

         9                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move we accept.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

        11       to accept the message of necessity on Calendar

        12       554.  All those in favor signify by saying aye.

        13                      (Response of "Aye.")

        14                      Opposed nay.

        15                      There was no response.)

        16                      The message is accepted.

        17                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Leichter.

        20                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  May I have

        21       unanimous consent to be recorded negatively -

        22       in the negative on 515, please.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Soon as











                                                             
11286

         1       we finish this one, Senator Leichter.

         2                      Secretary will read the last

         3       section.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         5       act shall take effect immediately.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         7       roll.

         8                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        11       is passed.

        12                      Without objection, hearing no

        13       objection, Senator Leichter will be recorded in

        14       the negative on Calendar Number 515.

        15                      Senator Skelos.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        17       call up Calendar 784, Senate Bill Number 2744B.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        19       will read the title.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        21       784, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 2744B, an

        22       act to amend the Town Law, in relation to refuse

        23       and garbage districts.











                                                             
11287

         1                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         2       is there a message at the desk?

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

         4       is.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move we accept.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

         7       to accept the message of necessity on Calendar

         8       784.  All those in favor signify by saying aye.

         9                      (Response of "Aye.")

        10                      Opposed nay.

        11                      (There was no response. )

        12                      The message is accepted.

        13       Secretary will read the last section.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        15       act shall take effect immediately.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        17       roll.

        18                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        19                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Which number,

        20       784?

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  We're on

        22       a roll call on 784, correct.

        23                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Explain my











                                                             
11288

         1       vote.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Chair

         3       recognizes Senator Dollinger to explain his

         4       vote.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Very, very

         6       briefly, this is a local bill which we're doing

         7       now with messages from the Governor which I have

         8       nothing against.  These look like local bills

         9       that ought to pass this house and ought to

        10       move.  I do understand, however, there are still

        11       some local bills that are still awaiting passage

        12       by this house that happen to be members who

        13       happen to sit on this side of the aisle, with

        14       the exclusion of Senator Leibell, who joins us

        15       on this side but his party is not on this side,

        16       so to speak.

        17                      But I'm not going to vote against

        18       these bills.  I think it's the right thing to

        19       do, get them out, get them passed, do the things

        20       for our local communities.  I just hope we get

        21       all the local bills passed this time around.  I

        22       just think we ought -

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator











                                                             
11289

         1       Dollinger will be recorded in the affirmative.

         2                      Announce the results.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Bill is

         5       passed.

         6                      Senator Skelos.

         7                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         8       call up Calendar Number 1019, Senate Bill Number

         9       1177A.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        11       will read the title of the Calendar Number 1019.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       1019, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 1177A, an

        14       act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law and the

        15       Education law, in relation to the appointment of

        16       security officers.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Skelos.

        19                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move we accept

        20       the -

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

        22       to accept the message of necessity on Calendar

        23       Number 1019.  All those in favor signify by











                                                             
11290

         1       saying aye.

         2                      (Response of "Aye.")

         3                      Opposed nay.

         4                      The message is accepted.

         5                      Secretary will read the last

         6       section.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         8       act shall take effect immediately.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        10       roll.

        11                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        14       is -- Senator Leichter, you wish to be recorded

        15       in the negative on that?  Announce the results.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  On Calendar

        17       Number 1019, ayes 54, nays 2, Senators Leichter

        18       and Stavisky recorded in the negative.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        20       is passed.

        21                      Senator Skelos.

        22                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        23       please call up Calendar Number 1051, Senate Bill











                                                             
11291

         1       Number 917B.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         3       will read the title.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       1051, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print Number

         6       917B, an act to amend the Civil Rights Law, in

         7       relation to prohibiting the non-consensual use

         8       of a person's voice.

         9                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        10       is there a message of necessity at the desk?

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

        12       is.

        13                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move we accept.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

        15       to accept the message of necessity on Calendar

        16       1051.  All those in favor signify by saying

        17       aye.

        18                      (Response of "Aye.")

        19                      Opposed nay.

        20                      (There was no response.)

        21                      The message is accepted.

        22       Secretary will read the last section.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 6.  This











                                                             
11292

         1       act shall take effect on the first day of

         2       November.

         3                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  I have a

         4       couple questions for Senator Goodman.  Can we do

         5       this now?

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       Goodman yields.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  First of all,

         9       Senator, could you tell me what's the definition

        10       of "person" in this portion of the law?  Does it

        11       include the estate of someone, number one, and

        12       number two, does it include a corpse, for

        13       example, one of the voices that -

        14                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Includes

        15       neither.  It does not include corpses; in other

        16       words, those tend to be inaudible.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  My question

        18       is this, Senator:  What about the immutable

        19       voice of Humphrey Bogart?

        20                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  This does not

        21       apply.

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Just the

        23       people who are currently living?











                                                             
11293

         1                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  That is

         2       correct.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Through

         4       you, Mr. President.  I've got one more.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Goodman, do you yield to one more question?

         7                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  I happened to

         8       have my voice used without my approval during

         9       the political campaign season when someone took

        10       one of my ads and happened to transform the ad,

        11       so that instead of talking as I'm talking right

        12       now, I talk as my children once refer to it by

        13       saying, "Blah!  Blah!  Blah!  Blah!"  Would that

        14       be a violation of this and then I could bring a

        15       claim for a civil rights action violation

        16       because the Republican Senate Campaign Committee

        17       had used my voice without my approval and

        18       manipulated it?

        19                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  The "Blah,

        20       blah" question is replete with complexity,

        21       Senator, and my answer is, "Blah!  Blah!  Blah!"

        22       (Laughter) Ouday ouyay eakspay igpay atinlay.

        23                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Yes.











                                                             
11294

         1                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  That's pig

         2       Latin, Senator.  It's okay.

         3                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  My question

         4       is, Senator, obviously -

         5                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  I think if this

         6       relates to the use of a voice for commercial

         7       purposes and unless you regard an attempt to

         8       unseat you as a commercial purpose, I do not

         9       believe it would apply.

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Well, let me

        11       ask another question then if Senator Goodman

        12       would continue to yield.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        14       Senator continues to yield.

        15                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Obviously,

        16       I'm buying -- or my colleagues across the aisle

        17       bought that time to advertise some other

        18       political candidate and they used commercial

        19       time and commercial airways and paid commercial

        20       rates to use my voice.  So my question is isn't

        21       that a violation of the Civil Rights Law if this

        22       bill passes because you can't use my voice

        23       without my approval, isn't that correct?











                                                             
11295

         1                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Let me see if I

         2       can help by taking you to the language of the

         3       bill itself.  On line 3, if you'll pick up

         4       halfway across the line.  "Any person whose

         5       name, picture or voice is used within this state

         6       for advertising purposes or for the purposes of

         7       trade without the written consent first obtained

         8       as provided may obtain inequitable action in the

         9       Supreme Court, et cetera."  So as you can see

        10       the bill specifically relates to advertising and

        11       to commercial purpose.

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Well -- but

        13       -- again through you, Mr. President, if Senator

        14       Goodman would continue to yield.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Goodman, do you continue to yield?

        17                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Yes, I will.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        19       Senator yields.

        20                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  In fact, the

        21       ad used against me was a commercial.  It was

        22       bought and paid for on commercial television.

        23       It was used to advertise a candidate in a race











                                                             
11296

         1       against me.  Wouldn't that violate this bill and

         2       I would have a right to enjoin the use of my

         3       picture or my voice by the Senate Republican

         4       Campaign Committee if it used it against me?

         5                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  I'm sure you

         6       would not have it as anyone -- as your intention

         7       to stifle anyone's First Amendment rights, but

         8       my judgment is that this bill appears to have a

         9       commercial purpose which probably might enable

        10       you to bring suit and then the courts would be

        11       willing to advise you as to whether it was

        12       appropriate or not.

        13                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Through you,

        14       Mr. President, if Senator Goodman would yield to

        15       one more question.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        17       Senator continues to yield.

        18                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  I'll do my best

        19       -- I'm exhausting my humble capacity to be

        20       responsive on this very simple bill but I'll do

        21       my best.

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  My question

        23       isn't curbing someone's First Amendment rights











                                                             
11297

         1       because you're obviously curbing someone's First

         2       Amendment rights.  You're curbing their right to

         3       use my voice or my picture in an ad for some

         4       other candidate.

         5                      I'd simply point out that as much

         6       as my voice was manipulated, there were also

         7       television commercials shown in the Rochester

         8       community which featured two or three sentences

         9       from the opposing candidate, one candidate who

        10       happened to say taxes are too high and that was

        11       repeated for about a month and a half, that

        12       little inflection of the voice to great humorous

        13       effect in a political campaign, and it seems to

        14       me that this bill does not create any specific

        15       exemption for the political process, and what

        16       you have here is, I believe, you are creating a

        17       right on the part of a political candidate to

        18       prevent the distribution of their picture or

        19       their voice in a commercial used against them

        20       because those commercials are just as commercial

        21       as they are for Harts Mountain or for dog food,

        22       we happen to sell political candidates, and I

        23       would simply suggest that if this bill is going











                                                             
11298

         1       to become law and if this Legislature decides

         2       that we want to retain some political opportun

         3       ity to use each other's voices, altered or not,

         4       that this bill will -- needs to be amended and,

         5       believe me, having been parodied, perhaps it's a

         6       difficult experience to go through, but the next

         7       time it happens, I may be in Supreme Court

         8       asking all of you to cough up damages because

         9       you've used my voice and my picture without my

        10       authority, and I'm not so sure that's what you

        11       would intend, not that I wouldn't love to rush

        12       off to the courts perhaps to see if I could

        13       enjoin the use of that, but it seems to me that

        14       there has to be some kind of exception for this

        15       if that's what you want to do.

        16                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  My answer to

        17       your question is yes, Senator.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        19       Secretary will read the last section.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        21       act shall take effect on the first day of

        22       November.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the











                                                             
11299

         1       roll:

         2                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes -

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

         5       the results when tabulated.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 55, nays 1,

         7       Senator Dollinger recorded in the negative.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         9       is passed.

        10                      Senator Skelos.

        11                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        12       on the supplemental calendar, would you please

        13       call up Calendar Number 1519, Senate Bill Number

        14       5105-A.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        16       Secretary will read the title to Calendar Number

        17       1519 which is located on Supplemental Calendar

        18       Number 1.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       1519, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5105-A, an

        21       act to amend the Uniform City Court Act, in

        22       relation to the City Court of the city of

        23       Poughkeepsie.











                                                             
11300

         1                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Is there a

         2       message at the desk?

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There is.

         4                      SENATOR SKELOS:  I move we

         5       accept.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         7       motion is to accept the message of necessity on

         8       Calendar Number 1519.  All those in favor

         9       signify by saying aye.

        10                      (Response of "Aye".)

        11                      Opposed, nay.

        12                      (There was no response.)

        13                      The message is adopted.

        14                      The Secretary will read the last

        15       section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        19       roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        23       is passed.











                                                             
11301

         1                      Senator Skelos.

         2                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President, I

         3       believe there's a report of the Finance

         4       Committee at the desk.  I ask that it be read.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Ask the

         6       Secretary to read the report of the Finance

         7       Committee.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

         9       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        10       following nomination:  Lloyd H. Demboski of

        11       Queensbury, member of the New York State

        12       Employment Relations Board.

        13                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        14       if we could perhaps just wait a minute.  I think

        15       Senator Bruno wants to come in.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        17       recognizes the Majority Leader, Senator Bruno,

        18       on the nomination of Lloyd H. Demboski as a

        19       member of the New York State Employment

        20       Relations Board.

        21                      Senator Bruno.

        22                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President,

        23       I'm very happy to be here and speak in favor of











                                                             
11302

         1       a great public servant, good friend, Lloyd

         2       Demboski.

         3                      I have known Lloyd for a lot of

         4       years.  We started our earlier lives together,

         5       town of Queensbury.  I have watched him serve in

         6       county government for I can't remember how many

         7       years; chair of the Legislature, chair of the

         8       Finance Committee in Warren County, past county

         9       leader for a lot of years, very active in the

        10       community, president of many of the charitable

        11       organizations, spent a lot of his time and

        12       energy working on behalf of people while he

        13       supported a family as a counselor at Smith

        14       Barney, so he knows what the real world is all

        15       about, in terms of dealing in the business

        16       community, dealing with management, deal with

        17       labor, dealing with a family, neighbors,

        18       colleagues, and the public.

        19                      So I think that the Governor, in

        20       his wisdom, has made a great judgment and while

        21       he presently resides in Senator Stafford's

        22       Senatorial District that I moved out of, Mr.

        23       President, some years ago, I am proud to speak











                                                             
11303

         1       in his support.

         2                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Mr. President.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

         4       recognizes Senator Stafford on the nomination.

         5                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Thirty years

         6       ago before I often visited the southern part of

         7       my district and usually after any meetings I

         8       would be with Senator Bruno and Lloyd Demboski,

         9       I stopped going quite so often because I usually

        10       was in the intensive care unit for four to six

        11       days afterward.  There aren't two people who

        12       worked harder or work harder in their district

        13       and, Lloyd, I never pointed this out on the

        14       floor before, but our Senate District is very

        15       fortunate because it has two Senators, Senator

        16       Bruno, and I work with him and we're very proud

        17       of that.

        18                      I want to say just as Senator

        19       Bruno has said, what a dedicated, yes, public

        20       servant Lloyd Demboski has been, and he's been

        21       extremely active in local government and he's

        22       been extremely active in other areas of

        23       political and governmental affairs.











                                                             
11304

         1                      We're very fortunate when the

         2       Governor appoints someone the caliber of Lloyd,

         3       and I would say this, that very often when we're

         4       in government or we're in the political fray, so

         5       to speak, sometimes some of us get a bit active

         6       and sometimes even a little aggressive.  That

         7       includes me.  Lloyd never does.  He's a

         8       gentleman, always a gentleman, and Joe and I

         9       have left meetings with him and said, how could

        10       you sit there, you know, and just be so

        11       composed, but he always is, and this will serve

        12       him well in this responsibility and he has many,

        13       many attributes, and I certainly commend him,

        14       his family and also the Governor and the

        15       Majority Leader for this appointment.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        17       any other Senator wishing to speak on the

        18       nomination?

        19                      (There was no response.)

        20                      Hearing none, the question is on

        21       the nomination of Lloyd H. Demboski.

        22                      Excuse me, Senator Goodman.

        23                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Just to add a











                                                             
11305

         1       geographic balance to these accolades, I would

         2       simply like to say that I have known Lloyd

         3       Demboski for the better part of 30 years and, in

         4       my judgment, there could be no finer individual

         5       to fill this post.  He is a gentleman.  He is a

         6       scholar.  He's a business executive of

         7       substantial experience and is an individual of

         8       impeccable integrity, and I support his

         9       nomination most warmly.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        11       question is on the nomination of Lloyd H.

        12       Demboski, of Queensbury, to become a member of

        13       the New York State Employment Relations Board.

        14       All those in favor of the nomination signify by

        15       saying aye.

        16                      (Response of "Aye".)

        17                      Opposed, nay.

        18                      (There was no response.)

        19                      The nominee is unanimously

        20       confirmed.  We're very pleased to have Mr.

        21       Demboski who's in the gallery to your left with

        22       us.  Congratulations.

        23                      (Applause.)











                                                             
11306

         1                      The Secretary will continue to

         2       read the report of the Finance Committee.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

         4       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

         5       following nomination:  Terence L. Morris of

         6       Burnt Hills, Commissioner of the State Insurance

         7       Fund.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

         9       recognizes Senator Bruno.

        10                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President.

        11                      SENATOR BRUNO:  I defer to

        12       Senator Farley, in case you're looking around,

        13       Mr. President.  We just had a discussion and the

        14       conclusion was that the good Mr. Terry Morris

        15       does reside in Senator Farley's district.

        16                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I just want this

        17       chamber to know that Senator Bruno never gives

        18       up any place that he's represented or any place

        19       he's lived.

        20                      Terry Morris was his

        21       constituent.  The last reapportionment he became

        22       mine and Joe Bruno is constantly claiming him.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  At the











                                                             
11307

         1       request of the Majority Leader, the Chair

         2       recognizes Senator Farley on the nomination.

         3                      SENATOR FARLEY:  That's very nice

         4       of you.  Thank you, Mr. President.

         5                      It's with a great deal of

         6       pleasure that I nominate Terry Morris as a -- as

         7       an outstanding individual, a family man, a

         8       businessman par excellence to the State

         9       Insurance Fund.

        10                      Let me just say something about

        11       Terry Morris who is very well known in this

        12       area, but particularly his daughter is because

        13       his daughter does all those Terry Morris

        14       commercials that you hear on the -- over the

        15       media.

        16                      Terry Morris has been one of the

        17       most active people in our community that anyone

        18       could imagine.  He's been a bank director.  He's

        19       Vice-president of the New York State Auto

        20       Dealers.  He's on the Schenectady County

        21       Alcoholism Council.  He's a director of Hospice,

        22       a director of the Chamber of Commerce, on the

        23       board of directors of the Workmen's Compensation











                                                             
11308

         1       Board for 430 New York State auto dealers.  He's

         2       past president of his Rotary Club, past

         3       president of the Mohawk Club.  He has served in

         4       political office.  He's a deputy supervisor,

         5       councilman, and he's received numerous awards.

         6       I could go on and on and on, but let me just say

         7       this.  Terry Morris is a person who's always

         8       there for his community.  He's respected and

         9       loved by everyone, not only in Saratoga County

        10       where he comes from, but the entire Capital

        11       District.

        12                      I know that he's a very, very

        13       dear friend of our Majority Leader's also and

        14       he's going to be rising to support this

        15       nomination, I'm confident, but let me say I'm

        16       pleased to move the nomination of Terry Morris

        17       to the State Insurance Fund.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Gold on the nomination.

        20                      SENATOR GOLD:  Thank you, Mr.

        21       President.

        22                      Having listened to Senator

        23       Farley, I guess I'm getting in the middle of a











                                                             
11309

         1       sandwich and I'll take the pressure from my

         2       Majority Leader in a minute.

         3                      I voted affirmatively a few

         4       moments ago on Mr. Demboski who, for quite a

         5       number of years, was the chairman of the Warren

         6       County Republican Committee.  It doesn't bother

         7       me at all.  I'm delighted that people are

         8       involved in politics and I'm delighted to vote

         9       to confirm people who are qualified to serve in

        10       public offices as opposed to party office.

        11                      Senator Farley gave you a pretty

        12       good resume of Mr. Morris, and I want to confirm

        13       some things that Senator Farley said.  I'm sure

        14       he's a good man and I'm sure he's a nice man and

        15       he's a man who, from his involvements in various

        16       things, is obviously a very worthy man, but I

        17       haven't heard one thing which qualifies him for

        18       the job that he's being appointed to, and that's

        19       the part that I think we all should be very

        20       concerned about.

        21                      If the Constitution did not

        22       require us to advise and to consent and to look

        23       into nominations, that's fine.  We elect a











                                                             
11310

         1       Governor and if the Constitution says the

         2       Governor shall then appoint, fine, but we will

         3       put into the process, I believe, for some kind

         4       of a purpose.

         5                      Mr. Morris, among other things,

         6       as Senator Farley -- and I don't know whether

         7       you mentioned this or not, but I'll throw it

         8       out, from the little that I saw today, I think

         9       you left out a word.  He's also honest, so when

        10       I said to him, you know, what's your experience

        11       and have you been there and do you know any of

        12       the laws and do you know the job?  He doesn't,

        13       and he said, in an honest way that, well, when

        14       he's there for two or three meetings or

        15       whatever, he'll see what it's about.  He's got a

        16       businessman sense and he'll dive into the pool.

        17                      Senator Farley, I don't have any

        18       problem with people having business mentalities

        19       and diving into the pool.  I think the Majority

        20       Leader of this house, when he ran for Majority

        21       Leader, took the position that we ought to be

        22       doing some things in a more businesslike way and

        23       some of those things I certainly approve of.











                                                             
11311

         1                      I mean, I don't know how many

         2       days Senator Present and I sat here at an

         3       opening hour waiting for people to finally get

         4       into the chamber.  I think you call a session,

         5       you come to session, that's great.  That's

         6       businesslike, but your side of the aisle didn't

         7       elect Senator Bruno to be the Majority Leader

         8       just because he has a business background.  I

         9       kind of think from the little things I hear in

        10       the coffee klatches, that he was a businessman

        11       who also knew the Senate, had experience, knew

        12       what he wanted to bring as a businessman to the

        13       Senate.

        14                      I think the problem with this

        15       nominee is not whether he's a nice man or a good

        16       man or an honest man, because from the little

        17       I've seen, I believe he's all of those things.

        18       I just don't believe that he is qualified at

        19       this point in time to be a member of the -- a

        20       commissioner, excuse me, of the State Insurance

        21       Fund.

        22                      So if you search my remarks after

        23       I vote no, I can look the man in the eye because











                                                             
11312

         1       I have nothing bad to say about him as a man

         2       and, as a matter of fact, he's probably the kind

         3       of person if I lived in the area, might even

         4       want to be friends with, if he wanted to be

         5       friends with me.  It's still America.  He has a

         6       choice, but my job today is not to decide

         7       whether he is a nice man or a good man, whether

         8       he's a good businessman.  The only question I

         9       have is, is he qualified?

        10                      It isn't even a question of

        11       whether Manny Gold would have appointed him if

        12       Manny Gold was the Governor because I'm not

        13       that, thank God, and I know you agree with that,

        14       but the point is that the Governor is entitled

        15       to anybody he wants if the individual has the

        16       qualifications, not even if the person -

        17       doesn't have to be the hundred percent person,

        18       the best person in the state, doesn't have to

        19       be, but I really think that we make a farce of

        20       the nomination process if we do not require any

        21       qualifications, if we are going to take what the

        22       Governor sends us and just say yes to

        23       everything.











                                                             
11313

         1                      Now, I don't want to get up

         2       again, so I'll make my comments on that last

         3       subject as to a whole bunch of other

         4       nominations.

         5                      We are being asked to confirm

         6       people today who are involved with policy in

         7       some very delicate areas and we don't even meet

         8       them.  We don't even see them and, of course,

         9       we've heard that, well, it could be inconvenient

        10       for people, whatever.  Are they getting any

        11       money?  They're not getting money.  I don't

        12       think that's an answer.  I think it's terrific

        13       that there are people who are willing to serve

        14       the state of New York for no money and it's to

        15       their credit, but I think that's not the issue

        16       before the Senate.  As long as the law provides

        17       that we must confirm, let's take it seriously.

        18                      Now, I've heard it said that this

        19       is the first term of the Governor and, yes, the

        20       budget was overwhelming so we didn't get the

        21       program bills in and look at the nominees, if

        22       Senator Bruno had not gone back on his

        23       commitment to end June 15th, and I say in all











                                                             
11314

         1       fairness, he went back on his commitment because

         2       he felt there was a governmental purpose -- I

         3       respect that, Senator Bruno -- but if we did not

         4       do that, we wouldn't even have all of these

         5       nominees.

         6                      So if the Governor is not on the

         7       right time schedule -- and there's a lot of

         8       parts to being Governor and I know he's

         9       interested in many of these parts but other

        10       governors have had to live with time schedules

        11       and so will George Pataki, but we should not

        12       have to be put in the position of going to

        13       meetings and finding that there are new people

        14       added to the committee agendas, finding out that

        15       they may or may not be there, and while there is

        16       a great criticism to predecessors of Senator

        17       Bruno because we worked all night and bills came

        18       flying out in the middle of the morning,

        19       Senator, it's not the middle of the morning and

        20       we have sunlight outside, but when you call the

        21       Finance Committee meeting and you see nominees

        22       are added for the first time, they don't appear,

        23       there are really questionable qualifications, I











                                                             
11315

         1       don't know whether it's really that much better.

         2                      I still think, Senator, that the

         3       result that we do is important, and I said that

         4       to you as a matter of fact a week or so ago when

         5       we were debating the Dollinger resolution and I

         6       said to you, the result has to be as important

         7       as the process, and I agree with you, Senator

         8       Bruno, that an orderly process is important, but

         9       an orderly process as you define it, Senator

        10       Bruno, I don't think is having members go to a

        11       committee meeting where they're supposed to be

        12       determining qualifications without notice as to

        13       who the people are, without the people appearing

        14       and just fitting it in, shoving it in because we

        15       had to come back here for three days.

        16                      So, again, with my regrets to the

        17       candidate who will not have to worry because

        18       he's still got enough votes in this house, I'm

        19       sure, I'm going to have to vote no and I want to

        20       say, Senator Bruno, that while I don't agree

        21       with you philosophically in many, many areas, I

        22       do agree with your concept of bringing the

        23       Senate to some orderly method of doing business,











                                                             
11316

         1       but if you want to analyze that logically,

         2       Senator Bruno, the way we're handling

         3       nominations is not orderly.  It's not business

         4       like.  If this was a private business, we would

         5       never do it that way and I think we ought to

         6       change that.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

         8       recognizes Senator Bruno.

         9                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Thank you, Mr.

        10       President.

        11                      I want to thank Senator Gold for

        12       his comments.  I know that they are well

        13       intended, and I think everyone in this chamber

        14       understands that, but for the record, Mr.

        15       President, I would just like to refresh all of

        16       our memories in that last year, last night of

        17       session, early hours of the morning, almost

        18       hundreds of confirmations were coming in this

        19       chamber for action while we were bleary-eyed,

        20       sleepy, not even in the chamber.  Why?  To get

        21       people in place before the election, and I guess

        22       that was good judgment for some people but not

        23       for the majority of the people in this state.











                                                             
11317

         1                      So we did change the ways of the

         2       past and thank you for recognizing that,

         3       Senator.  We have changed the mistakes of the

         4       past, and now I'm asking your indulgence here in

         5       recognizing that the commission and this

         6       Insurance Fund as it has functioned under the

         7       Cuomo administration sees us with Workmen's

         8       Comp' rates among the highest in the country,

         9       driving jobs and businesses out of business or

        10       out of this state, helping us lead the country

        11       in job losses.

        12                      So, Mr. President, I would

        13       recommend strongly that we have tried the ways

        14       of the past putting experts in place who have

        15       not been very expert in the way that fund has

        16       worked in driving jobs out of this state.  So

        17       now the people spoke November 8th, so let's try

        18       the Pataki way by getting common sense,

        19       successful business people in place, successful

        20       citizens of this state, family people who have

        21       one thing, Mr. President, good judgment, common

        22       sense, an ability to recognize what is right and

        23       what is wrong.











                                                             
11318

         1                      I know Mr. Terry Morris, Senator

         2       Farley is right.  He reluctantly gave up his

         3       residence as part of my district in reapportion

         4       ment.  My good friend, Senator Skelos, did that

         5       to me, but I forgave him a long time ago, but he

         6       is the right person.  He is the kind of person

         7       that we need in this state now to fix some of

         8       the problems that have been created by the

         9       mistakes of the past.

        10                      So, Senator Gold, I welcome you

        11       in joining us as we move forward from many of

        12       the mistakes that we made in the past to the new

        13       era of trying to do what's right for the great

        14       majority of the people in this state.

        15                      Mr. President, I urge my

        16       colleagues to support Mr. Morris.

        17                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Yes,

        19       Senator Gold.  Why do you rise?

        20                      SENATOR GOLD:  Would our

        21       distinguished leader yield to one question?

        22                      SENATOR BRUNO:  One question, Mr.

        23       President, because I'm not anxious to prolong











                                                             
11319

         1       the process.  All the nice things that should be

         2       said are being said, but I'm happy to yield to

         3       Senator Gold.

         4                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator, when I

         5       was in college, I had twin fraternity brothers

         6       whose philosophy was that the night before an

         7       exam, you never studied, you went out and drank

         8       because if they studied, their mind would be

         9       cluttered with information and this way they had

        10       open minds and they could think better.  I don't

        11       know whether that's what I'm hearing from you.

        12                      You suggested that during the

        13       Cuomo days we tried to get appointments of

        14       qualified people and look what happened.

        15       Therefore, we should try it the Pataki way.  In

        16       other words, is the Pataki way to put in

        17       unqualified people who don't know the agencies

        18       and maybe that's a better answer than finding

        19       some qualified Republicans who might know about

        20       the subject matter?

        21                      SENATOR BRUNO:  I'm being

        22       reminded that I don't think I said qualified

        23       people were put in place.  I was talking about











                                                             
11320

         1       the process and how they got there with their

         2       backgrounds.

         3                      SENATOR GOLD:  Well, Senator, I

         4       think you said exactly that.  You said that we

         5       have the highest rates of insurance and this was

         6       done when there was supposedly experts there and

         7       now we're going to do it the Pataki way, and

         8       what I want to know is does the Pataki way mean

         9       we're looking for people who are unqualified but

        10       have no experience and maybe they'll take a

        11       fresh look at it?

        12                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Yes -- no,

        13       Senator Gold.  What I'm talking about in the

        14       Pataki way is to bring new insights, new

        15       thinking, common sense, successful business

        16       people to a process that needs redefining so

        17       that the people in this state can benefit from

        18       their wisdom and their knowledge and their

        19       experience.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        21       Farley.

        22                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Senator Gold,

        23       let me say that Terry Morris is eminently











                                                             
11321

         1       qualified for this post.  One look at his resume

         2       which I hope you've read could tell you that he

         3       has worked in -- successfully in business, has

         4       served on boards of directors, has done so many

         5       things that are needed to be -- to be

         6       represented on this State Insurance Fund.  That

         7       is a -- that board, that State Insurance Fund is

         8       a board that provides insurance theoretically

         9       for persons and people in businesses that are

        10       not able to get insurance.  Certainly, a person

        11       that has been in business for the number of

        12       years that he's been is eminently qualified to

        13       serve on that board.

        14                      This is an unpaid position.  It's

        15       a new appointment and I'll tell you, I

        16       compliment the Governor on securing and thank

        17       Terry Morris for being willing to serve on this

        18       -- on this board.  He's an outstanding nominee

        19       and I urge his appointment.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        21       any other Senator wishing to speak on the

        22       nomination?

        23                      (There was no response.)











                                                             
11322

         1                      Hearing none, the question is on

         2       the nomination of Terence L. Morris of Burnt

         3       Hills to the position of Commissioner of the

         4       State Insurance Fund.  All those in favor of the

         5       confirmation signify by saying aye.

         6                      (Response of "Aye".)

         7                      Opposed, nay.

         8                      (Response of "Nay".)

         9                      The nominee is confirmed.  We're

        10       very happy to have Mr. Morris in the chamber

        11       with us in the gallery up above.

        12       Congratulations and good luck.

        13                      (Applause.)

        14                      The Secretary will continue to

        15       read.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

        17       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        18       following nomination:  John F. Carpenter of

        19       Elmira, Commissioner of the State Insurance

        20       Fund.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        22       question is on the nomination of John F.

        23       Carpenter of Elmira to the position of











                                                             
11323

         1       Commissioner of the State Insurance Fund.  All

         2       those in favor signify by saying aye.

         3                      Senator Stachowski.

         4                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  I don't know

         5       Mr. Carpenter.  I don't know very much about Mr.

         6       Carpenter.  However, I pointed out and

         7       unfortunately it wasn't him specifically, but

         8       there were three separate nominees of which in

         9       looking at their background information, there

        10       were questions that possibly could have been

        11       answered quite simply and then there would be no

        12       question that the person would be more than

        13       presentable for the position to which he's

        14       nominated for.

        15                      Mr. Carpenter has a construction

        16       company and it said in his background that he

        17       had some issues in front of insurance, and we

        18       didn't know if it was in front of this insurance

        19       fund that he will now be a member of or some

        20       other insurance coverage or whatever, and the

        21       problem I had was -- and granted it's an unpaid

        22       position and normally it wouldn't matter, but I

        23       would point out that I know that the question -











                                                             
11324

         1       the answer I'm going to get at some point is

         2       going to be that in previous years we did

         3       hundreds of these kinds of people and we never

         4       worried about things like this, but I would

         5       point out that the fact that we're the Minority

         6       and we don't run the committee calendar, when we

         7       have a question like this, we hope to get the

         8       answer at the committee.  When you are the

         9       Majority and you have that sort of question of a

        10       nominee of the Governor -- and I would point out

        11       that at least during my time here, the only

        12       other governors that have been here have been

        13       Democrats and I'm quite sure that any questions

        14       that the Majority would have had of those

        15       individuals of a similar nature of the quite

        16       simple questions that we had of a few nominees

        17       today, particularly on this calendar that we're

        18       about to take up that Mr. Morris came off of and

        19       that these other gentlemen would come off of,

        20       would have been answered for the Majority before

        21       that name ever got on any committee calendar.

        22                      So I don't know yet -- I think

        23       I'm going to vote no.  I hate to do it to Mr.











                                                             
11325

         1       Carpenter, but the fact is that the problem I

         2       have is that these gentlemen weren't available

         3       to answer simple questions and I don't know what

         4       the reason is, but that's the reason, and I know

         5       that in some cases unpaid positions, that's one

         6       thing, but I know on the next calendar we're

         7       going to have at least two positions and there's

         8       one that's a reappointment with a paid

         9       position.  I don't have a problem with that, but

        10       there's two people that are going to come up on

        11       the next Supplemental 1 Calendar that are

        12       getting positions that are paid $68,300 and two

        13       of those people weren't even required to come

        14       down here to answer any kind of questions, and

        15       it's difficult for me to vote for those kind of

        16       people and not that they're not qualified.  I

        17       don't know that they are or they're not, and I

        18       don't know if the questions that I had could

        19       have easily been answered.  I believe they

        20       probably could have been but the fact is they

        21       weren't here to answer.

        22                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Mr. President.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair











                                                             
11326

         1       recognizes Senator Stafford.

         2                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  I had an

         3       opportunity to have a -- an in-depth discussion

         4       with Mr. Carpenter from the county of Chemung, I

         5       believe the city of Elmira.  I think, Mr.

         6       President, you're familiar with that area, and I

         7       think you're very familiar with Mr. Carpenter.

         8                      He is a very successful business

         9       person and many of us have said -- and it was

        10       said earlier here by the previous two speakers

        11       that if there's something that's needed in the

        12       commissioner -- in the Insurance Fund is -- I

        13       hate to interrupt those people -- it's -

        14       something that we really need in the Insurance

        15       Fund is common sense and good business.

        16                      I believe I was talking to you

        17       the other day and you can shake your head either

        18       way, I believe -- I think you said to me that

        19       he's top of the line and I think that indicates

        20       that he's a fine gentleman to be serving in this

        21       unpaid position and I would point out that it is

        22       unpaid.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Any other











                                                             
11327

         1       Senator wishing to speak on the nomination?

         2                      (There was no response.)

         3                      Hearing none, the question is on

         4       the nomination of John F. Carpenter of Elmira to

         5       the position of Commissioner of the State

         6       Insurance Fund.  All those in favor signify by

         7       saying aye.

         8                      (Response of "Aye".)

         9                      Opposed, nay.

        10                      (There was no response.)

        11                      The nominee is confirmed.

        12                      The Secretary will continue to

        13       read.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

        15       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        16       following nomination:  Anthony J. Casale of

        17       Mohawk, member of the State Liquor Authority.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Stafford on the nomination.

        20                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Can we have

        21       one more day on this?  No, no.  (Laughter.)  I

        22       wouldn't want to do that.

        23                      Assemblyman Casale has the good











                                                             
11328

         1       fortune to live in Senator Seward's district and

         2       I know Senator Seward will be much more

         3       articulate and he'll have so many good things to

         4       say.

         5                      Now, some of you have heard me

         6       get up here on the floor and say these are the

         7       best nominations that the Governor has made or a

         8       governor has made since I have been here.  That

         9       is true today, I have to point that out, with

        10       all of the nominations we've considered and Tony

        11       Casale, I have to share with you, I'm sure this

        12       may not be an advantage to him, but out of high

        13       school he started working with me, and let me

        14       tell you, Tony was ready to be an Assemblyman

        15       the next year.  He's hands on and he's a quick

        16       study, but on a serious note, there isn't anyone

        17       who deals with people, works with people,

        18       understands people any better than Tony.

        19                      It's a great appointment.

        20       Government is his interest.  It's great that

        21       he's staying in government, and I can only

        22       emphasize here today again when Tony was at the

        23       State University, came to work for me in his











                                                             
11329

         1       Freshman year, I learned more from Tony than

         2       Tony learned from me, and that was true every

         3       year, but we congratulate him, his family,

         4       Theresa and the whole family and we know -- we

         5       know that he will continue to be a credit to his

         6       family, his government and himself and with

         7       that, I'm sure Senator Seward will rise in a

         8       positive manner.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        10       recognizes Senator Seward on the nomination.

        11                      SENATOR SEWARD:  Thank you, Mr.

        12       President, my colleagues.

        13                      I too rise today to laud the

        14       nomination of Assemblyman Tony Casale to be a

        15       member of the State Liquor Authority and the

        16       designated chairman of that authority.

        17                      Tony Casale, of course, is very

        18       well known to every member of this body.  We all

        19       know Tony as a colleague of great wit, of great

        20       intellect, of great integrity, a hard worker and

        21       very determined when a task is at hand.

        22                      Tony Casale and I have known each

        23       other for some 25 years.  It's hard to imagine a











                                                             
11330

         1       couple of young guys like us, but we've known

         2       each other for some 25 years and we have been

         3       through a lot together.  When he was first

         4       elected in 1978 to the state Assembly, he was my

         5       Assemblyman, and he was very pleased with the

         6       reapportionment in 1992 to return the favor and

         7       become Tony Casale's Senator at that time.

         8                      Over the years, we have worked

         9       very, very closely on behalf of our mutual

        10       constituents in areas, and I can say without

        11       question that I have never had a more loyal,

        12       able, supportive and stronger ally to work with

        13       during those years.  His advice and support on

        14       so many matters have been absolutely invaluable.

        15                      I think it's a testimony to

        16       Tony's quality of public service and his

        17       bipartisan approach to issues that he has not

        18       faced an opponent since his first election in

        19       1978.  He's been a very effective advocate for

        20       his district working to meet the needs for the

        21       people in his district.  Tony Casale epitomizes

        22       the very best in what it means to be a public

        23       servant, and I'm very proud to call him a











                                                             
11331

         1       colleague, I'm proud to call him a constituent,

         2       but more than those two, very, very proud to

         3       call him a good friend and we know that Tony's

         4       wife, Theresa, who is in the gallery today

         5       shares all of the credit as well for -- that

         6       accrues to Tony on this day and her strength has

         7       been an inspiration to us all.

         8                      In joining Tony and his wife,

         9       Theresa, in the gallery are their three sons,

        10       Vinny, Peter and AJ, as well as Tony's mother,

        11       Mrs. Amy Casale, also a constituent of mine from

        12       Mohawk.

        13                      So, Tony, the Governor is to be

        14       commended and congratulated for selecting you

        15       for this new responsibility.  My congratulations

        16       to the Governor and to you and we wish you every

        17       success.  The people of this state have been

        18       richly blessed with your service in the past and

        19       will be even more so in the future with this new

        20       assignment.

        21                      Congratulations, Tony.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        23       Goodman on the nomination.











                                                             
11332

         1                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr. President,

         2       I'm pleased to join my colleagues with an

         3       enthusiastic, indeed a ringing endorsement of

         4       this outstanding candidate.  May I just say as

         5       chairman of the Investigations Committee which

         6       as the house knows has the obligation to oversee

         7       the operations of the State Liquor Authority,

         8       I'm particularly heartened by the Governor's

         9       selection for this very significant and

        10       sensitive post.

        11                      This is an agency which has been

        12       much troubled in the past, has been the object

        13       of an investigation by our committee which

        14       revealed a great number of problems, some of

        15       which have been resolved and others which have

        16       not.  It is for that reason that I'm

        17       particularly grateful that we have Tony Casale

        18       assuming this post, because he and I have had

        19       extensive opportunities to discuss the agency

        20       and its problems.  He has evinced a very

        21       significant understanding of the need for strong

        22       administration.  He is a man of great skill and

        23       if I may comment, particularly adept and











                                                             
11333

         1       diplomatic people person who will be able to

         2       both forcefully, and I think in a cooperative

         3       fashion, to overhaul an agency much in need of

         4       this.

         5                      As a result of the budget that we

         6       adopted earlier in this session, we have a new

         7       streamlined agency, and I would say its most

         8       salient feature is that it has given to the

         9       chairman the chief executive officer's absolute

        10       responsibility for the oversight of the agency

        11       and it could not be placed in better hands.

        12                      I salute Tony and his family,

        13       wish him well in his important job and I know we

        14       all look forward to working with him because

        15       he's pledged to keep in close touch with the

        16       Legislature so that the needs of the people will

        17       be reflected in any comments we may transmit to

        18       him.

        19                      Good luck and Godspeed to you,

        20       Mr. Chairman, and we're very proud of you.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        22       recognizes Senator Cook on the nomination.

        23                      SENATOR COOK:  Mr. President,











                                                             
11334

         1       it's a rare occasion that I have the privilege

         2       of endorsing the appointment of someone who has

         3       been such a good, warm and personal friend for

         4       so long.  Even though I haven't represented

         5       Mohawk for a little while, Theresa, I remember

         6       stopping at the house and the pleasant time that

         7       we always had when we were working together or

         8       when we were together socially, and I guess you

         9       would say that while being a personal friend

        10       doesn't necessarily qualify you for an office,

        11       but I think that the quality of the person,

        12       indeed, does make a difference, and Tony Casale

        13       is somebody that everybody recognizes, everybody

        14       and -- certainly in Herkimer and Otsego County

        15       recognizes as someone of unquestionable

        16       integrity.

        17                      Tony is a guy that always,

        18       whenever he says something, you can go to the

        19       bank with it.  He means it.  He follows through

        20       on it.  He's done that whether in an official

        21       capacity or in a personal capacity, and I am

        22       just so happy that, Tony, if this is what you

        23       want to do, that you're getting a chance to do











                                                             
11335

         1       it.  I'm going to tell you, we're going to miss

         2       you tremendously in the Legislature, but don't

         3       be a stranger.  We hope to continue to see you

         4       around down here and I'm just so delighted that

         5       the Governor has seen fit to make this

         6       outstanding nomination.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Larkin on the nomination.

         9                      SENATOR LARKIN:  I'm proud to

        10       rise and second the nomination of Tony Casale.

        11                      I came to the Legislature in

        12       January 1979 with Tony and over all these years,

        13       the one thing that always stood out in my mind

        14       about Tony Casale is he extended himself to

        15       everyone.  Somebody needed his help on a project

        16       on Long Island, western New York and Hudson

        17       Valley, Tony never worried because he knew

        18       Theresa would always be there when he got home.

        19       He was always willing to come and help.

        20                      Individual members -- I remember

        21       when some members in the Majority were having

        22       problems on issues that they didn't really

        23       understand.  They went to Tony and Tony helped











                                                             
11336

         1       them.  Years ago when they were first starting

         2       to talk about letting the New York City people

         3       learn about the upstate farmers, Tony

         4       volunteered.  I don't know if Theresa

         5       remembers.  He said, "We'll have the first

         6       dinner at our house," but he let people have an

         7       opportunity to work things out and try to let

         8       them understand our problems from upstate, but

         9       he's been a team player, working with us in the

        10       Assembly and also working in the Senate.  Late

        11       Jim Donovan told me one time when you talk about

        12       a dedicated public servant, you're talking about

        13       Tony Casale.

        14                      Tony, I look forward to working

        15       with you, and I want you to know that I'm as

        16       proud as a member of your family because you

        17       deserve it, you earn it and you're the damn best

        18       qualified man for the job.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Wright on the nomination.

        21                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Thank you, Mr.

        22       President.

        23                      I, too, have the pleasure this











                                                             
11337

         1       evening of rising to second the nomination of

         2       Tony Casale.  As Senator Gold indicated earlier,

         3       I think we all take our confirmation

         4       responsibilities very serious and when it came

         5       time for this confirmation, I took it seriously

         6       and decided that I would do some homework and

         7       checking into Mr. Casale's background and, of

         8       course, those of you who know us from the North

         9       Country work very closely as a team, so I made a

        10       point of going to my member of that team,

        11       Assemblyman Bob Nortz, who happens to have had

        12       the occasion to room with Assemblyman Casale for

        13       the last 15 years and that is testimony alone to

        14       Tony's commitment to 15 years with somebody from

        15       the North Country, but in my conversations with

        16       Assemblyman Nortz, I asked him to use three

        17       adjectives to describe Assemblyman Casale and he

        18       thought long and hard and gave me the same three

        19       that he shared with the BCI, and since that's a

        20       report that I won't relate to this afternoon, I

        21       will share the second set that he gave us and

        22       that is based on their relationship as

        23       roommates, he's very prompt.  He's very neat.











                                                             
11338

         1       He's very fastidious.

         2                      Those are attributes that I think

         3       we can use as we are reorganizing the SLA.  Tony

         4       will have and be faced with that unique respon

         5       sibility of serving as the chairman and the

         6       chief executive officer of the SLA, and I think

         7       the breadth of his background and experience

         8       that he brings to that job speaks to the

         9       credentials and the experience that Tony has.

        10                      Tony also indicated very clearly

        11       in his confirmation hearing today before the

        12       committees, his understanding of the job, his

        13       understanding of the relationship with the

        14       Legislature and the SLA, his understanding of

        15       the business community and their relationship

        16       with the SLA.

        17                      Tony not only is well

        18       credentialed and well prepared, but Tony also

        19       has the dedication that's essential to carry

        20       through on this mission.  It's been my pleasure

        21       for the past three years to call Tony not only a

        22       colleague but a true friend, and I'm very

        23       pleased to be here to second the nomination and











                                                             
11339

         1       to vote for the confirmation.

         2                      Tony, best of lock.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Nozzolio on the nomination.

         5                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  Thank you, Mr.

         6       President, my colleagues.

         7                      Certainly, I wish to echo those

         8       good things said about the nominee, Anthony

         9       Casale, who is before us now, but I rise with

        10       some mixed emotion; mixed emotion first of

        11       knowing that the Liquor Authority's gain will be

        12       the Legislature's loss, that Tony has served

        13       with great distinction as a member of the New

        14       York State Assembly for, it seems like eons, and

        15       it does seem like a long time ago that -- 13

        16       years to be exact, Mr. President -- that Tony

        17       took me under his wing when I was first elected

        18       to the Assembly.  One of his -- I didn't notice

        19       on his resume, but I know I was his little

        20       brother upon that occasion and that certainly I

        21       was blessed to have the guidance and tutelage of

        22       Tony Casale during my early days in the New York

        23       State Assembly, and together working with Tony,











                                                             
11340

         1       as Senator Larkin had mentioned, those of us who

         2       served in the state Assembly, served in the

         3       Republican Conference, in that body knew very

         4       clearly that Tony had always been a leader in

         5       the conference, worked hard traveling across the

         6       state to get our message through and in that

         7       experience, I know will say -- will serve the

         8       people of this state very well because Tony has

         9       been through his various chairmanships and

        10       various conference responsibilities, has been in

        11       virtually every corner of the state working on

        12       behalf of the conference, and I believe that

        13       certainly is a great attribute.

        14                      I also wanted to mention

        15       Assemblyman Nortz.  Tony had two good teachers

        16       in Ron Stafford and Bob Nortz through his tenure

        17       here in the Legislature and we're certainly

        18       very, very blessed to have that experience.

        19                      Tony Casale, his responsibilities

        20       will be great, but the reason why I rise is

        21       because he has meant so much to those of us in

        22       the state Legislature and, Tony, it is with

        23       great feelings of mixed emotion to have you











                                                             
11341

         1       leave the state Assembly, but it is with great

         2       pride that I stand because this certainly is a

         3       job that we know you're up to the task for; we

         4       know you will be terrific in.

         5                      I also want to say something

         6       about Theresa Casale.  Theresa is always at

         7       Tony's side.  To his benefit, Theresa, your

         8       friendship through the years has meant a great

         9       deal to all of us and congratulations to the

        10       entire Casale family for this nomination.

        11                      Thank you, Mr. President.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Leibell on the nomination.

        14                      SENATOR LEIBELL:  Thank you, Mr.

        15       President.

        16                      Briefly, so many other members

        17       have spoken, but I couldn't let the opportunity

        18       go by without adding my comments to those who

        19       have gone before.  I, like my friend Mike

        20       Nozzolio, came in the Assembly in the same class

        21       in 1983 and I, like Michael, benefited greatly

        22       from the friendship and the wisdom of Tony

        23       Casale.











                                                             
11342

         1                      I would be hard-pressed to think

         2       of anybody who brings more energy, dedication or

         3       integrity to the Legislature than Tony does.  I

         4       guess I feel like the little twinge of getting

         5       older.  It's sort of like they're breaking up

         6       that old gang of ours when we see our friends

         7       leaving the Legislature and I will certainly

         8       miss Tony as a colleague and as a friend, but I

         9       know he's going forward to lend his substantial

        10       talents and energies to a very important

        11       department of this state government.

        12                      So, Mr. President, I rise to

        13       second, to lend support and to congratulate my

        14       dear friend Tony Casale.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Farley on the nomination.

        17                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Thank you, Mr.

        18       President.

        19                      Not having served in the Assembly

        20       with Tony but he being one of my assemblymen

        21       sharing Fulton county with me, he's already

        22       starting off with a major plus when I hear that

        23       Roy Goodman is supporting you in the SLA.  Roy











                                                             
11343

         1       has been after that SLA for years.  You've

         2       really had a remarkable accomplishment before

         3       you've even been appointed.

         4                      Let me just say this.  Tony

         5       Casale is a hard-working, gifted, capable person

         6       and, you know, it's unfortunate that the

         7       Legislature is losing him and -- because let me

         8       say that there's been few people in that

         9       Assembly that has made such a remarkable career

        10       that you have over there, Tony.

        11                      As I have served with him, I have

        12       seldom seen anybody who had been better

        13       prepared, that has represented his people, was

        14       always there willing to go that extra mile and

        15       knowing his district, he had a district once

        16       that didn't have roads that you could traverse

        17       it and he still covered it and was -- and always

        18       will.

        19                      Let me just say this, Tony.  I

        20       wish you well.  I certainly know that you're

        21       going to be missed here.  You're going to be

        22       missed by me and, you know, the state of New

        23       York is really blessed to have people that are











                                                             
11344

         1       willing to give so much to serve the public.

         2                      Tony and I graduated from the

         3       same school together, Albany State, the State

         4       University.  He's a member of their foundation,

         5       president of -- former president of the alumni

         6       association and somebody that has been respected

         7       and been a leader in his university.  I know

         8       that I'm going to miss you in the Legislature,

         9       Tony, but look forward to working with you in

        10       the future.  The best of luck to you and your

        11       family.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Stachowski on the nomination.

        14                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Mr.

        15       President, I also rise to second the nomination

        16       of Tony Casale.  I figure it's about time once

        17       somebody from our side did.

        18                      Tony's been a hard-working

        19       assemblyman.  I have got to know him over the

        20       years.  I have been in the gym when he's leaving

        21       or when he's coming but, unfortunately, I've

        22       never seen him do the whole workout, so I'm not

        23       sure what he does on the other part of it, but











                                                             
11345

         1       he's in there a lot.  He's in there a lot, and I

         2       know at least he's an active member of that

         3       facility.

         4                      I know Tony's always been a good

         5       representative of his community.  I know he'll

         6       take that same diligence and that same openness

         7       and take it to that State Liquor Authority and

         8       hopefully be a lot easier for all of us to then

         9       work with that authority.

        10                      I see also in his -- in his

        11       resume and as I heard through speeches that he

        12       overcame the first job that he ever had to

        13       continue to move upward and do better with his

        14       life.  He obviously was a great Assemblyman and

        15       on behalf of all the Democrats from western New

        16       York, I have to say that without Tony, none of

        17       us would have known about Rudy's.  We wouldn't

        18       have had all of the good deals on clothes on the

        19       way home or coming back to Albany and we also

        20       wouldn't have that break to stop and get the

        21       good sandwiches and Italian meals at Jimmy's,

        22       the little shop right across the street from

        23       Rudy's, so for that, we thank you, Tony.  We're











                                                             
11346

         1       glad to have been your friend and we wish you

         2       luck in your new endeavor.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Solomon, on the nomination.

         5                      SENATOR SOLOMON:  Thank you, Mr.

         6       President.

         7                      Unlike Senator Stachowski, I did

         8       see Tony Casale work out at the gym, but it

         9       seemed that about a year and a half ago he must

        10       have found a better endeavor, either that or he

        11       started coming a little earlier or a little

        12       later, but he's always been a good friend.

        13                      I believe he's also a SUNY

        14       graduate from SUNY-Albany from which I'm a

        15       graduate, and he's an individual we know that,

        16       as a legislator, no matter what party, we'll be

        17       able to talk to him regarding our problems and

        18       maybe he'll give us some good advice and counsel

        19       in resolving those problems in the future, but

        20       most important, he's just an ordinary guy with

        21       no pretensions about ego or anything else, who

        22       attempted to work out in that gym like we all

        23       did and tried to figure out whether it was worth











                                                             
11347

         1       it every morning to be on that bicycle or that

         2       treadmill and whether the results would

         3       eventually -- whether there would eventually be

         4       some positive results for it, and I would like

         5       to wish him the best of luck in his new endeavor

         6       and hopefully he'll be very successful and he'll

         7       deal with the problems that I have in my

         8       particular part of my Senate District too.

         9                      Thank you.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Sears, on the nomination.

        12                      SENATOR SEARS:  Thank you very

        13       much, Mr. President.

        14                      All of the good things have been

        15       said, and I don't think there's too much left.

        16                      Tony, let me just tell you how

        17       proud I am of you as I know you must be today as

        18       you look down and see so many of your former

        19       colleagues in the Assembly who are now in the

        20       Senate and on this great day for you, the ones

        21       that are here in the back who are your present

        22       colleagues and we're just proud as punch for you

        23       and awful proud that you're going to take on one











                                                             
11348

         1       of the great jobs at the State Liquor Authority

         2       as the chairman, but I do have to say a few more

         3       things about Tony when he came down here and

         4       first worked for Ron Stafford.  I knew him when

         5       he worked for Don Mitchell up in Utica.  Also

         6       knew him as one of my strongest supporters when

         7       I was after the nomination to run for the Senate

         8       the first time.  Tony, we've got a private story

         9       there that I'll never forget.  He was very

        10       instrumental in getting me that nomination, not

        11       only that, but also in campaigning for me every

        12       single time that I have run.

        13                      Now, I have to tell you one thing

        14       about Tony.  If any of you are fight fans in

        15       here that like boxing matches, if Tony ever

        16       invites you to his apartment when he's down here

        17       to witness a fight that you can only get on

        18       cable or by "Pay Per View" and if he tells you

        19       to be there at 10:00 o'clock, don't bother going

        20       because he will already have locked the door and

        21       closed the place.  Now, that's an inside story

        22       because that happened to me one time and -- but

        23       it didn't -- it certainly was by accident.  I











                                                             
11349

         1       have to kid Tony about it, but I am really so

         2       happy that I have the opportunity and even being

         3       the last one here to second this nomination of a

         4       great guy who's been very good to me and to you

         5       and your family, Tony, the best of luck and I'm

         6       happy to second your nomination.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Saland, on the nomination.

         9                      SENATOR SALAND:  Thank you, Mr.

        10       President.

        11                      As our colleague, Senator

        12       Velella, has said on more than one occasion, we

        13       served in the big house, served in the big house

        14       with Assemblyman Casale, and I want you to know,

        15       Tony, that these folks in the back, your

        16       colleagues, I don't think they're here

        17       necessarily to fete you.  I think they're here

        18       just in case you were foolish enough to change

        19       your mind and decided to stay.  They're here to

        20       urge you to continue down your new career path.

        21                      Having served for some ten years

        22       in the Assembly with Tony Casale, I can tell you

        23       that Tony was not merely a valued colleague, a











                                                             
11350

         1       man who, during my years of service was in

         2       leadership in the Assembly, a man who was highly

         3       regarded by each and every one of his

         4       colleagues.

         5                      In speaking a bit earlier with

         6       Chris Ortloff, he assured me it wasn't, Tony,

         7       your bipartisan nature and your ability to win

         8       friends on both sides of the aisle that assured

         9       you no opponents.  What he said -- I'm only

        10       referring to Chris now, Tony -- he said -- I

        11       thought it had something to do with the size of

        12       the district, recalling that it went from Canada

        13       down to Pennsylvania.  He said the district was

        14       so large they couldn't find anybody else to run

        15       and they were glad to have you, Tony.

        16                      Very seriously, you were truly an

        17       example, a fellow who -- and a colleague who

        18       certainly was there for each and every one of us

        19       on whatever the occasion was.  I would like to

        20       join all of my colleagues who have spoken in

        21       commending you for the appointment.  The

        22       Governor could not have done better.  Wish you

        23       well and assure you that to the extent that we











                                                             
11351

         1       still have the ability to provide assistance to

         2       you in your new capacity, we would like to think

         3       that you could call on us the way we have always

         4       called on you.

         5                      Good luck, God bless.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       Hoffmann on the nomination.

         8                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  I was all set

         9       to support Tony Casale for this nomination and

        10       then I found out that he's a protege of Senator

        11       Sears and did all of his early learning under

        12       Senator Sears' tutelage and Senator Stafford's

        13       tutelage and I'm beginning to worry now if we've

        14       made the right choice here, if the Governor has

        15       found somebody who, in fact, knows the state the

        16       way I thought Tony Casale knew it, because I

        17       know that Tony puts more miles on than virtually

        18       any other member of the Legislature with a

        19       district that size.  He was, I think, one of the

        20       first Assembly members outside of leadership who

        21       had to have a car in order to get around and

        22       wore out a couple of them along the way.

        23                      It's clearly an indication of











                                                             
11352

         1       great respect to Assembly member Casale, soon to

         2       be Commissioner Casale, that so many members of

         3       his colleagues in the Assembly have come here to

         4       see him today, and I don't think there's really

         5       any question in our minds that they're here out

         6       of respect for you, Tony.  I don't think it's

         7       just to be absolutely certain that you'll leave

         8       the Assembly.  I think that there is a matter of

         9       singular pride when one of our colleagues moves

        10       on to assume this type of responsibility.

        11                      I do have my suspicions that, if

        12       there was a Senate seat open right now, that you

        13       might have an interest in joining us here in the

        14       little house as it's been stated, but until such

        15       time, I'm sure that your talents are going to be

        16       very well received and greatly needed by the

        17       State Liquor Authority, and I too want to

        18       compliment you and I'm happy to rise to second

        19       the nomination.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        21       any other member wishing to speak on the

        22       nomination?

        23                      (There was no response.)











                                                             
11353

         1                      Hearing none, the question is on

         2       the nomination of Anthony J. Casale of Mohawk,

         3       New York, to become a member and acting chairman

         4       of the State Liquor Authority.  All those in

         5       favor of the nomination signify by saying aye.

         6                      (Response of "Aye".)

         7                      Opposed, nay.

         8                      (There was no response.)

         9                      The nominee is unanimously

        10       confirmed.

        11                      Tony Casale, congratulations to

        12       you, your family.  We appreciate your coming and

        13       joining with us.

        14                      (Applause.)

        15                      The Secretary will read.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

        17       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        18       following nomination:  Lawrence J. Gedda of

        19       Lynbrook, Member of the State Liquor Authority.

        20                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       Skelos.

        23                      SENATOR SKELOS:  I'll be very











                                                             
11354

         1       quick.  Tony Casale is going to be an excellent

         2       chairman and I know that Larry Gedda who has

         3       served on the State Liquor Authority with great

         4       distinction will be a great partner for him.  So

         5       I'm delighted to move the nomination of Lawrence

         6       J. Gedda, reappointment as a member of the State

         7       Liquor Authority.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

         9       any other member wishing to speak on the

        10       nomination?

        11                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr. President.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Goodman.

        14                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  During its most

        15       troubled period when we were looking at the

        16       State Liquor Authority, Larry Gedda was

        17       literally a lighthouse of good management and

        18       common sense and I'm delighted that he's seen

        19       fit to continue in his service in this agency.

        20       He'll be an invaluable right-hand man to

        21       Chairman Casale, and I know of his ability and

        22       I'm confident that he will continue to make a

        23       significant contribution.











                                                             
11355

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Any other

         2       member wishing to speak on the nomination?

         3                      (There was no response.)

         4                      Hearing none, the question is on

         5       the nomination of Lawrence J. Gedda of Lynbrook

         6       to the position of member of the State Liquor

         7       Authority.  All those in favor signify by saying

         8       aye.

         9                      (Response of "Aye".)

        10                      Opposed, nay.

        11                      (There was no response.)

        12                      The nominee is confirmed.

        13                      The Secretary will read.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

        15       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        16       following nomination:  Edward F. Kelly of

        17       Holmes, member of the State Liquor Authority.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        19       question is on the nomination of Edward F. -

        20       excuse me.

        21                      Senator Stachowski.

        22                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Just very

        23       briefly.  I would just like to point out again











                                                             
11356

         1       that -- and I mentioned this earlier, that in

         2       the case of Mr. Kelly, he's getting a new

         3       appointment to a position paying $68,330 with

         4       the State Liquor Authority and though his resume

         5       looks fine, we have no idea if he has any idea

         6       what the job entails, if he has any experience

         7       with the position or if there were any other

         8       questions that members from our side of the

         9       aisle might have had for Mr. Kelly in the

        10       committee because he wasn't here.  So I'm not

        11       blaming Mr. Kelly.  Quite possibly, it could

        12       have been some kind of lack of being informed

        13       that he was coming up today or whatever, but the

        14       fact is that he wasn't here and we're sorry that

        15       he wasn't.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       Stavisky on the nomination.

        18                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Mr. President,

        19       I rise for the same purpose.  As a member of a

        20       committee that has reported this nomination, I

        21       commented on the fact that this is a new

        22       appointment which runs until the year 2000.  Of

        23       all of the recommendations or appointments for











                                                             
11357

         1       confirmation today, this is the one with the

         2       longest tenure and I'm at a loss to understand

         3       why someone whose credentials may be fine for

         4       other activities but has apparently no

         5       experience in the field to which he has been

         6       appointed apart from operating and owning a

         7       family grocery store -- and I certainly do not

         8       wish to denigrate that; that is a fine noble

         9       activity, but that's the only thing that is even

        10       slightly related to the responsibilities of the

        11       office.

        12                      It is a mistake for this body in

        13       exercising its powers to confirm gubernatorial

        14       nominations, to consider any individual who is

        15       so important or so ill concerned -- what's a

        16       responsibility of this chamber? -- that that

        17       individual on the very first day of considered

        18       appointment and confirmation would fail to

        19       appear before a committee of the Senate of the

        20       state of New York.

        21                      I think it's insulting to this

        22       body.  I think it is a practice that should be

        23       stopped dead in its tracks.  If they don't have











                                                             
11358

         1       the time or the ability to show up when they are

         2       about to be considered for an appointment of

         3       five years, then for God's sakes, what assurance

         4       do we have that they will appear when the

         5       committee meetings are under way when the State

         6       Liquor Authority is in operation?  We need

         7       assurances that they understand the issues, that

         8       they are equipped to handle the problems and

         9       that they're willing to give a commitment of

        10       sufficient time and attention to their official

        11       duties.  I have not seen that in this case.

        12                      I do not wish to prejudge Mr.

        13       Kelly's suitability for the office.  I simply

        14       question his attitude, and I surely question the

        15       procedure that has brought him here without any

        16       appearance before any committee of the New York

        17       State Senate, not the Committee on Investiga

        18       tions, Taxation and Government Operations headed

        19       by Senator Goodman, and not before the Finance

        20       Committee headed by Senator Stafford.

        21                      This is a disservice and a

        22       discourteous treatment of every Senator who is

        23       being asked to vote today, and I object to this











                                                             
11359

         1       procedure and hope that it will not be

         2       replicated in the future.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Leibell on the nomination.

         5                      SENATOR LEIBELL:  Thank you, Mr.

         6       President.

         7                      With respect to assurances, I

         8       would like to give you some.  Mr. Kelly is

         9       someone that I have had the good fortune to know

        10       for probably in excess of 15 years.  He is, in

        11       addition to that, a constituent and, in fact, my

        12       office received a phone call from Ed Kelly only

        13       recently within the last, I believe half hour,

        14       indicating that it was his impression that they

        15       were going to be considering him tomorrow but he

        16       certainly would have had no objection to being

        17       here.

        18                      That being the case, let me

        19       continue with my assurances in my personal

        20       knowledge of Ed Kelly.  Ed is someone who's had

        21       an extensive career in the private sector,

        22       serving for a long, long time with IBM, which is

        23       a -- certainly a prominent corporation in New











                                                             
11360

         1       York State, and particularly in the Mid-Hudson

         2       region.  He's also been a small businessman.

         3       He's also had extensive government experience

         4       serving in various local town positions in the

         5       town of Pawling in Dutchess County and most

         6       significantly, he's also been very involved

         7       civically in our area, in our community and our

         8       county.

         9                      He's raised a family, five sons,

        10       one of whom I'm pleased to say serves as my

        11       counsel, in addition to which he has been

        12       married for in excess of 42 years and has nine

        13       grandchildren.

        14                      That's his business background,

        15       his government background, civic background,

        16       personal background and I can personally assure

        17       you he's a man of the greatest integrity and

        18       will do this state well by his service.

        19                      I'm pleased to second the

        20       nomination, Mr. President.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       Saland, on the nomination.

        23                      SENATOR SALAND:  Thank you, Mr.











                                                             
11361

         1       President.

         2                      I rise to second this nomination

         3       as well.  Like Senator Leibell, I have known Ed

         4       Kelly for a good number of years, and Senator

         5       Leibell shared with me a bit earlier the fact

         6       that for reasons of no more than what was

         7       clearly inadvertence on whose part at this point

         8       we can't determine, Mr. Kelly was under the

         9       impression that he was to appear tomorrow,

        10       intending no slight to either this body or any

        11       member of this body.

        12                      I have known Ed, as I said, for a

        13       number of years, probably at least ten years.

        14       He certainly, as in every endeavor that he has

        15       been involved in, whether it's involvements with

        16       community service, whether it's involved -- his

        17       involvement with local government or whether

        18       it's the number of years he has spent both on

        19       behalf of IBM, a major corporation, and his own

        20       family enterprise, he has been keenly connected

        21       to his community and to the business world.

        22                      I would think, given his history

        23       of commitment, given his personal qualities, his











                                                             
11362

         1       integrity, the conscientious approach which he

         2       takes to each and every issue that he -- that he

         3       gets involved in, the degree of intellect that

         4       he possesses that has distinguished him in his

         5       other endeavors, that he would be an excellent

         6       appointment, and I commend the Governor for

         7       sending this nomination to us and it's my

         8       pleasure again to second his nomination.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Goodman, on the nomination.

        11                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  May I say that

        12       I have received some information which I think

        13       will put to rest some of the concerns properly

        14       expressed on the other side of the aisle,

        15       namely, that Mr. Kelly has indicated that he

        16       will come to Albany tomorrow.  He very much

        17       regrets that he was not adequately notified of

        18       his presence being required today.  He is due to

        19       arrive here at 11:00 a.m. and I will be pleased

        20       to have any member of the Committee on

        21       Investigations join me in a meeting off the

        22       floor so that we'll have an opportunity to see

        23       Mr. Kelly and to verify what I'm sure will be











                                                             
11363

         1       very appropriate recommendations made by his

         2       colleagues who know him well.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Stavisky, why do you rise?

         5                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Will Senator

         6       Goodman yield for a question?

         7                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Yes, I will.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         9       Senator yields.

        10                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Senator

        11       Goodman, will you, therefore, request that we

        12       lay over this confirmation until tomorrow?

        13                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  No, Senator.  I

        14       feel the committee has acted and the house has

        15       acted, and it would be inappropriate to make

        16       that request, but I'm sure that you will

        17       graciously understand that Mr. Kelly was most

        18       anxious to be cooperative and should we reach

        19       some conclusion that requires us to take further

        20       action, we can certainly do that, but at this

        21       moment, I think it would be inappropriate to

        22       make such a request.

        23                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Senator











                                                             
11364

         1       Goodman, if it were -- with your permission, Mr.

         2       President -

         3                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  I hope you'll

         4       understand, Mr. -- Senator, that this is being

         5       done as a matter of accommodation to not only

         6       your wishes but those of the chairman of the

         7       committee and that we should welcome this token

         8       of cooperation in a gracious manner and not

         9       create any undue parliamentary complications.

        10       You could, I'm sure, raise many other questions,

        11       but I appeal to you as a colleague and friend

        12       not to do so at this moment.

        13                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Senator

        14       Goodman, I do not question his willingness to

        15       serve.  I do not question his integrity, but I

        16       believe that we have here without full

        17       consideration a nominee whom we have not met

        18       except for the individuals who have spoken

        19       positively in his behalf, and I think it's a sad

        20       reflection on our committee that we will not

        21       consider laying over this for one day, and

        22       that's what I'm asking you to do.

        23                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  That is not











                                                             
11365

         1       within my power to do, as I think you

         2       understand.  The house has acted, but I did

         3       receive this information and I really forward it

         4       to you with the best of intent and I recognize

         5       that in mentioning this on the floor it could

         6       give rise to the very suggestion you've made,

         7       but I appeal to you, please, not to embarrass me

         8       as chairman in my effort to make him fully

         9       available to you for your opportunity to meet

        10       him so that we are not going to create a further

        11       embarrassment to the nominee who is a completely

        12       innocent bystander in this matter.

        13                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Senator

        14       Goodman, did your office reach out to the

        15       nominee to inform him that the committee was

        16       meeting today?

        17                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  My office was

        18       only informed that we would have the papers as

        19       of this afternoon shortly before we met,

        20       Senator, so I was not in a position to do that.

        21                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  So are you

        22       saying that the omission was on the part of your

        23       office rather than the nominee?  I will accept











                                                             
11366

         1       that if that's what you are saying.

         2                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Senator, I

         3       would gladly say that if I could assume full

         4       blame for it, but as I have indicated, we were

         5       not advised that the papers had been sent up

         6       from the second floor until shortly before our

         7       meeting and since this is the second to the last

         8       day of the session, we are endeavoring to

         9       cooperate with the second floor so that there

        10       could be a full complement on the commission.

        11       I'm sure you realize the hazards that would

        12       exist if there were not a full complement of

        13       commissioners and we were attempting to satisfy

        14       that need.

        15                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Mr. President.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       Stavisky.

        18                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Would it be in

        19       order -- I'm not saying I'm asking this to be

        20       done.  Would it be in order to table this

        21       nomination?

        22                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Senator, I

        23       would not yield to any further questions.  I











                                                             
11367

         1       have tried my best to respond to you as

         2       cooperatively as I can.

         3                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  I'm asking the

         4       Chair.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  What was

         6       your question again, Senator Stavisky?

         7                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Would it be in

         8       order to request a motion to table this

         9       nomination for today?

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  You can

        11       request the motion to table.

        12                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  I understand.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        14       Certainly, the sponsor of the bill, certainly -

        15       of the nomination would be Senator Stafford who

        16       is the -- I believe the chairman of the Finance

        17       Committee, that the bill was last reported out.

        18       You can make a motion at any time.  A motion is

        19       non-debatable, as you know.

        20                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  I know that.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  But if

        22       somebody else -- I mean, you can make that

        23       request but it doesn't appear to me that anybody











                                                             
11368

         1       is taking you up on the request.

         2                      Senator Skelos, you want to be

         3       heard on that?

         4                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Mr. President.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Senator

         6       Stavisky, are you making the motion?

         7                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  No, I'm not.

         8       In order to avoid any negative feedback with

         9       regard to this institution, I indicate that it

        10       is appropriate within the rules of this house to

        11       move to table a motion.  I will not do so.  I

        12       wish simply now to be recorded as not voting for

        13       the confirmation and will not move to table the

        14       nomination which perhaps should be done if this

        15       process is repeated in the future.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        17       question is on the nomination of Edward F. Kelly

        18       of Holmes to the position of member of the State

        19       Liquor Authority.  All those in favor of the

        20       nomination signify by saying aye.

        21                      (Response of "Aye".)

        22                      Opposed, nay.

        23                      (There was no response.)











                                                             
11369

         1                      The record will reflect that

         2       Senator Stavisky abstained from voting on the

         3       nomination.

         4                      The Secretary will continue to

         5       read the report of the Finance Committee.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

         7       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

         8       following nomination:  Joan A. Cusack of

         9       Brooklyn, Member of the Crime Victims Board.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Stachowski.

        12                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Mr.

        13       President, I will be very brief.  Earlier I

        14       pointed out again that, as with Mr. Kelly, Joan

        15       Cusack also was unavailable for questioning at

        16       the committee meeting.  It's rather difficult to

        17       tell, even though she has an extensive

        18       background piece here, some of which I won't

        19       mention, if there were questions               
 about her

        20       ability to serve on this board, what kind of

        21       background she brings to it, her understanding

        22       of the Crime Victims Board and its duties, the

        23       members on our side of the aisle were unable to











                                                             
11370

         1       ask those questions.

         2                      It's understandable with

         3       reappointments because you're aware that the

         4       person is familiar with it.  It's -- with

         5       unpaids, in many instances, it's not a problem

         6       but when certain questions do arise, we would

         7       hope that in the future that people particularly

         8       that are going to get paid positions would be

         9       available for any kind of questions that might

        10       come up by members of the Senate.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        12       any other member wishing to speak on the

        13       nomination?

        14                      (There was no response.)

        15                      If not, the question is on the

        16       nomination of Joan A. Cusack of Brooklyn, New

        17       York, to become a member of the Crime Victims

        18       Board.  All those in favor of the nomination

        19       signify by saying aye.

        20                      (Response of "Aye".)

        21                      Opposed, nay.

        22                      (There was no response.)

        23                      The nominee is confirmed.











                                                             
11371

         1                      The Secretary will continue to

         2       read.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

         4       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

         5       following nominations:  John P. Cahill, Esq. of

         6       Yonkers, James P. Ciliberti of Yonkers, Joseph

         7       F. Sayegh, Ph.D. of Yonkers, Members of the New

         8       York State Emergency Financial Control Board for

         9       the city of Yonkers.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        11       any member wishing to speak on the nomination?

        12                      Senator Stachowski.

        13                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Mr.

        14       President, in particular, on one of these three

        15       individuals, Mr. Cahill, we had some questions

        16       concerning the fact that he's a partner in a law

        17       firm that says it represents public and private

        18       clients on a variety of municipal issues,

        19       including municipal financing.

        20                      The problem we have is that this

        21       is an unpaid position.  We don't question that

        22       the man is of integrity and good character, but

        23       we don't want to see a person put themselves in











                                                             
11372

         1       the position of a conflict of interest, and

         2       since the gentleman wasn't here to answer any

         3       questions, we have a problem with the fact that

         4       he could be putting himself in a position of

         5       conflict of interest.  It's much different once

         6       you're in public positions rather than private

         7       positions, and we don't want to see anybody do

         8       that to themselves, and we wish that Mr. Cahill

         9       or however he pronounces it -- I have to say

        10       Cahill because that's how my friends that spell

        11       it that way pronounce it.  If he would have been

        12       here to answer these questions, they might have

        13       very easily been cleared up, but it does present

        14       some difficult problems for some members on our

        15       side.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        17       question is on the nominations of John P.

        18       Cahill, James P. Ciliberti and Joseph Sayegh to

        19       become Members of the New York State Emergency

        20       Financial Control Board for the city of

        21       Yonkers.  All those in favor of the nomination

        22       signify by saying aye.

        23                      (Response of "Aye".)











                                                             
11373

         1                      Opposed, nay.

         2                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  No.

         3                      The nominees are confirmed.

         4                      Senator Dollinger.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Just for a

         6       point of order, Mr. President.  Is it possible

         7       to vote against one of those nominees?  I think

         8       the point Senator Stachowski raises with respect

         9       to Mr. Cahill concerned me as well.  I would

        10       like to be recorded in the negative on Mr.

        11       Cahill and affirmative on the rest.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        13       record will reflect that Senator Dollinger,

        14       Senator Stavisky -

        15                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Not voting.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -- Senator

        17       Stachowski -- excuse me.  The record will

        18       reflect that Senator Dollinger and Senator

        19       Stachowski voted no on the nomination on John P.

        20       Cahill alone.  Senator Stavisky is excused from

        21       voting on the nominations.

        22                      The Secretary will read.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,











                                                             
11374

         1       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

         2       following nominations:  Charles E. Dorkey III of

         3       New York City, Anthony Gioia of Buffalo, James

         4       Simpson of Staten Island, members of the New

         5       York Job Development Authority.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         7       question is on the nominations of Charles

         8       Dorkey, Anthony Gioia, James Simpson to become

         9       members of the New York Job Development

        10       Authority.  All those in favor of the

        11       nominations signify by saying aye.

        12                      (Response of "Aye".)

        13                      Opposed, nay.

        14                      (There was no response.)

        15                      The nominees are confirmed.

        16                      Secretary will read.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

        18       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        19       following nomination:  Edward V. Regan of New

        20       York City, Director of the Municipal Assistance

        21       Corporation for the city of New York.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        23       question is on the nomination of Edward V. Regan











                                                             
11375

         1       to become Director of the Municipal Assistance

         2       Corporation for the city of New York.  All those

         3       in favor signify by saying aye.

         4                      (Response of "Aye".)

         5                      Opposed, nay.

         6                      (There was no response.)

         7                      The nominee is confirmed.

         8                      The Secretary will read.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

        10       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        11       following nominations:  Leslie Chen, Esq. of New

        12       York City, Thomas H. O'Neill, Jr. of Hamburg,

        13       public member of the State Banking Board.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        15       question is on the nomination of Leslie -

        16                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President,

        17       on the nomination of Mr. O'Neill.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Leichter, on the nomination.

        20                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Unfortunately,

        21       this was another instance where the committees

        22       that have jurisdiction over this nomination,

        23       neither the Banking Committee nor the Finance











                                                             
11376

         1       Committee had an opportunity to interview the

         2       nominee, and I know that Senator Farley has

         3       always been very conscientious about seeing that

         4       the committee does review personally the

         5       background of the nominees and have an

         6       opportunity to question the nominee.

         7                      This is an important position.

         8       It's a position that we ought to be sure that

         9       the nominee who's being appointed as a public

        10       member of the Banking Board, has the requisite

        11       background, outlook, experience and it's also

        12       important that these nominees know that there is

        13       a Legislature, that there is a Senate, that

        14       there are committees, that we have concerns, so

        15       I very much regret that we did not have an

        16       opportunity to see Mr. O'Neill.

        17                      I have heard some good things

        18       about him and, I'm sorry, I see Senator Rath is

        19       up and I should have first given her the

        20       opportunity to make the nomination.  I

        21       apologize, but I did want to express these

        22       concerns that I have, and I would hope very much

        23       voicing the sentiments that were expressed by











                                                             
11377

         1       Senator Stavisky that we don't rush through

         2       these nominations in the future as we have these

         3       past couple of days.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

         5       recognizes Senator Rath, on the nomination.

         6                      SENATOR RATH:  Yes, Mr.

         7       President.

         8                      I stand to support the nomination

         9       of Thomas O'Neill.  I have known Tom for several

        10       years and I've listened with a good deal of

        11       interest and in many cases today, a good deal of

        12       agreement when I saw that various ones had not

        13       come in for various of their nominations, and I

        14       happen to agree on -- I said the same to Senator

        15       Stavisky earlier in the Finance Committee

        16       meeting, but as I looked through and I saw Tom

        17       O'Neill's resume, I thought now here's a man who

        18       has not had to circulate his resume, and what

        19       happened to me earlier this year with another

        20       nomination, I looked at the person's resume.  I

        21       was speaking about him and across the floor

        22       Senator Stachowski and Senator Velella and

        23       several others said to me, "She's talking about











                                                             
11378

         1       someone entirely different than the resume

         2       that's in front of you", and what happens

         3       sometimes is very busy people who are moving

         4       along very quickly and don't have a lot of

         5       reasons to circulate their resumes don't have

         6       much of a resume and thankfully someone knows

         7       something about them, and I did that other time

         8       and I do now.

         9                      I can speak of Tom O'Neill and

        10       his dedication to the community in western New

        11       York, to his long service on community boards

        12       and activities and to his high regard that he's

        13       held in by the business community in western New

        14       York.

        15                      Through the few things that are

        16       there on his resume, I don't think you have any

        17       doubt that this is an active, successful

        18       businessman who will be serving in this position

        19       that he's nominated for on the State Banking

        20       Board.

        21                      There would be no hesitation in

        22       my mind to say that, if there was someone that I

        23       wanted to depend on to look to them for their











                                                             
11379

         1       experience and their knowledge as to how to get

         2       things done and through a very complicated and

         3       very demanding kind of a board to work on, Tom

         4       O'Neill would be just the kind of person that

         5       will be one of my first choices and, as I said,

         6       unfortunately, this man has never had to

         7       circulate his resume anywhere.  He's always been

         8       very gainfully employed, so consequently he's

         9       not here, but hopefully he will be here, and I

        10       will make a point, Senator Leichter and Senator

        11       Stavisky, to make sure that you meet Tom and

        12       have a chance to talk with him firsthand.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Farley, on the nomination.

        15                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Yes.  It's with

        16       enthusiasm that I support the nomination of Tom

        17       O'Neill.

        18                      Let me say this, Senator Leichter

        19       -- and I share your concern.  It was physically

        20       impossible for him to be here this week.  He's

        21       not a reappointment, but he has gone through

        22       this process before.  He was appointed by

        23       Governor Cuomo with the oil and gas board and











                                                             
11380

         1       has been investigated prior to this and approved

         2       by this Legislature.  He's an outstanding person

         3       that comes with a terrific reputation, and I

         4       pledge to you that I will bring him before the

         5       committee so that every member of the Banking

         6       Committee will personally meet him, and I think

         7       they will be pleased.

         8                      I have checked on him with other

         9       members from the Buffalo area.  Even Senator

        10       Stachowski says he's confident that he knows him

        11       and I -- I'm sure that you will be very pleased

        12       with this appointment.  It's something that we

        13       do need to have this board in place and I urge

        14       his approval and I think he will be an

        15       outstanding member of the Banking Board.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       Volker on the nomination.

        18                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Mr. President,

        19       very quickly, I want to clean up something

        20       here.  I think it wasn't Senator Stachowski that

        21       knew him, it was me.  It was Senator Volker.

        22       He's a constituent of mine, although he's a

        23       former constituent of Senator Stachowski.











                                                             
11381

         1                      Let me just say that I also know

         2       Tom O'Neill, and I think probably outside of

         3       bankers themselves, he probably knows more about

         4       banking than just about anyone because he's a

         5       major oil dealer, and so forth, in the area, and

         6       I can assure you that he's had a lot of

         7       experience in dealing with banks.  So I think as

         8       a public member -- and, of course, as you

         9       realize, a public member as I understand it is

        10       not supposed to be a banker, is not supposed to

        11       be somebody connected directly with the banking

        12       industry.  I think he certainly would fit the -

        13       would fit the bill for being a public member and

        14       I'm sure that the reason Tom wasn't here as

        15       we've talked about before, that given the nature

        16       of these things that he wasn't able to be here,

        17       but I can vouch for Tom also, and I think he'll

        18       make an excellent public member on the Banking

        19       Board.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        21       question is on the nomination of Leslie Chen of

        22       New York City and Thomas H. O'Neill, Jr. of

        23       Hamburg to the positions of public members of











                                                             
11382

         1       the State Banking Board.  All those in favor of

         2       the nominations signify by saying aye.

         3                      (Response of "Aye".)

         4                      Opposed, nay.

         5                      (There was no response.)

         6                      The nominees are confirmed.

         7                      The Secretary will read.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

         9       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        10       following nominations:  Margaret Marino-Castaldo

        11       of Lindenhurst, Gerard H. Toner of West Babylon,

        12       members of the Republic Airport Commission.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        14       any member wishing to speak on the nominations?

        15                      (There was no response.)

        16                      Hearing none, the question is on

        17       the nomination of Margaret Marino-Castaldo and

        18       Gerard H. Toner to the positions of members of

        19       the Republican -- Republic Airport Commission.

        20       I tried.  (Laughter.)  All those in favor of the

        21       nominations signify by saying aye.

        22                      (Response of "Aye".)

        23                      Opposed, nay.











                                                             
11383

         1                      (There was no response.)

         2                      The nominees are confirmed.

         3                      The Secretary will read.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

         5       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

         6       following nomination:  Barry Bruce Perlman, M.D.

         7       of New York City, member of the Mental Health

         8       Services Council.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        10       question is on the nomination of Barry Bruce

        11       Perlman to the position of member of the Mental

        12       Health Services Council.  All those in favor of

        13       the nomination signify by saying aye.

        14                      (Response of "Aye".)

        15                      Opposed, nay.

        16                      (There was no response.)

        17                      The nominee is confirmed.

        18                      The Secretary will read.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

        20       from the Committee on Finance, reports the

        21       following nomination:  Edward F. Cox of New York

        22       City, member of the State Park, Recreation and

        23       Historic Preservation Commission for the city of











                                                             
11384

         1       New York.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         3       question is on the nomination of Edward F. Cox

         4       of New York City to become a member of the State

         5       Park, Recreation and Historic Preservation

         6       Commission for the city of New York.  All those

         7       in favor of the nomination signify by saying

         8       aye.

         9                      (Response of "Aye".)

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        11       President.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Dollinger, why do you rise?

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Just one

        15       question, perhaps.  Didn't we appoint Mr. Cox to

        16       something yesterday, SUNY?  So he's going to

        17       wear multiple hats.

        18                      Mr. President, I won't vote

        19       against it, but it seems to me there are lots of

        20       good people out there that could fill these jobs

        21       and we're reappointing someone to another

        22       position.

        23                      I'll vote in favor, Mr.











                                                             
11385

         1       President.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         3       question is on the nomination of Edward F. Cox

         4       to become a member of the State Park, Recreation

         5       and Historic Preservation Commission for the

         6       city of New York.  All those in favor of the

         7       nomination signify by saying aye.

         8                      (Response of "Aye".)

         9                      Opposed, nay.

        10                      (There was no response.)

        11                      The nominee is confirmed.

        12                      Senator Skelos.

        13                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        14       with the consent of the Minority, would you call

        15       up Calendar Number 665, Senate Bill Number

        16       4384-A.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        18       Secretary will read Calendar Number 665, the

        19       title thereof which is on the first calendar of

        20       the day, Calendar Number 68.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       665, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 4384-A, an

        23       act relating to the apportionment of building











                                                             
11386

         1       aid and reorganization incentive building aid.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Skelos.

         4                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Is there a

         5       message at the desk?

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There is

         7       a message of necessity at the desk.

         8                      SENATOR SKELOS:  I move we

         9       accept.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        11       motion is to accept the message of necessity on

        12       Calendar Number 665 at the desk.  All those in

        13       favor signify by saying aye.

        14                      (Response of "Aye".)

        15                      Opposed, nay.

        16                      (There was no response.)

        17                      The message is accepted.

        18                      The Secretary will read the last

        19       section.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        21       act shall take effect immediately.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        23       roll.











                                                             
11387

         1                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         4       is passed.

         5                      Senator Skelos.

         6                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Is there any

         7       housekeeping at the desk?

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

         9       is.

        10                      The Chair recognizes Senator

        11       Farley for some housekeeping.

        12                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I feel like the

        13       housekeeper here.  I wish to call up Senator

        14       Skelos' bill, 5525, which is now at the desk.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        16       Secretary will read the title.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       1540, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5525, an

        19       act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        21       Farley.

        22                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President, I

        23       now move to reconsider the vote by which this











                                                             
11388

         1       bill was passed, and I ask that the bill be

         2       restored to the order of third reading.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         4       Secretary will call the roll on

         5       reconsideration.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll on

         7       reconsideration.)

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        10       is restored to third reading.

        11                      Senator Farley.

        12                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I now move to

        13       discharge from the Committee on Rules, Assembly

        14       Print 3604-A and substitute it for Senator

        15       Skelos' identical bill.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        17       substitution is ordered.

        18                      SENATOR FARLEY:  The first bill

        19       was voted on unanimously.  I now move that the

        20       substituted Assembly bill have its third reading

        21       at this time.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        23       Secretary will read the last section.











                                                             
11389

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         2       act shall take effect immediately.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         4       roll.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         8       is passed.

         9                      SENATOR FARLEY:  On behalf of

        10       Senator Goodman, Mr. President, I wish to call

        11       up his bill, Senate Print 5222, recalled from

        12       the Assembly which is now at the desk.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        14       Secretary will read the title.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        16       1407, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 5222, an

        17       act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to an

        18       amendment of a lease by a cooperative housing

        19       corporation.

        20                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I now move to

        21       reconsider the vote by which this bill passed.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        23       Secretary will call the roll on











                                                             
11390

         1       reconsideration.

         2                      (The Secretary called the roll on

         3       reconsideration.)

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Farley.

         7                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I now offer the

         8       following amendments.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        10       amendments are received and adopted.

        11                      Senator Farley.

        12                      SENATOR FARLEY:  This is on

        13       behalf of Senator Maltese.  I wish to call up

        14       Calendar 833, AR 3006 -- 30006 -- I don't know

        15       what that means, Assembly Rules -- is that -

        16       Assembly Rules.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        18       Secretary will read the title to the bill.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       833, by Senator Maltese, Senate Bill 4524,

        21       Assembly Reprint 30006, an act to amend the

        22       Election Law, in relation to the names of

        23       independent bodies.











                                                             
11391

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         2       Farley.

         3                      SENATOR FARLEY:  That's Assembly

         4       reprint.  Okay.

         5                      Mr. President, I now will move to

         6       reconsider the vote on the concurrence with the

         7       Assembly amendments to Senate Print 4524.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         9       Secretary will call the roll on

        10       reconsideration.

        11                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        12       reconsideration.)

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

        14                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I now move to

        15       not concur in the said amendments to my Senate

        16       bill 45... Senator Maltese's Senate bill 4524.

        17       They are not concurred in.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        19       amendments to the Senate Bill are not concurred

        20       in.

        21                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President, I

        22       now move to reconsider the vote by which this

        23       said bill passed and ask that the bill be











                                                             
11392

         1       restored to the order of third reading.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         3       Secretary will call the roll on

         4       reconsideration.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll on

         6       reconsideration.)

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         9       is restored to the Third Reading Calendar.

        10                      Senator Smith, why do you rise?

        11                      SENATOR SMITH:  Thank you, Mr.

        12       President.

        13                      On behalf of the Senate Minority

        14       Leader, I would like to announce an immediate

        15       conference of the Senate Minority in the Senate

        16       Minority Conference Room.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

        18       will be an immediate meeting of the Senate

        19       Minority Conference in the Senate Minority

        20       Conference Room, Room 315.  Immediate meeting of

        21       the Senate Minority Conference in the Minority

        22       Conference Room, Room 315.

        23                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.











                                                             
11393

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         2       Skelos.

         3                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Tomorrow there

         4       will be a meeting of the Rules Committee at 9:30

         5       a.m. in Room 332 of the Capitol.  That's

         6       Wednesday, June 27th, and without objection,

         7       there being no -- tomorrow is Thursday.  I stand

         8       corrected.  Thank you very much.  The Rules

         9       Committee meeting will be on Thursday at 9:30

        10       a.m. in Room 332, and there being no further

        11       business, the Senate stands adjourned until

        12       Thursday at 10:00 a.m. sharp.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

        14       will be an immediate meeting of the Senate Rules

        15       Committee Thursday, June 29th at 9:30 in the

        16       Majority Conference Room, Room 332, and without

        17       objection, the Senate stands adjourned until

        18       tomorrow, Thursday, June 29th, the last day of

        19       session, at 10:00 a.m.

        20                      (Whereupon, at 7:05 p.m., the

        21       Senate adjourned.)

        22

        23