Regular Session - March 12, 1996

                                                                 
1990

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         8                  ALBANY, NEW YORK

         9                   March 12, 1996

        10                     3:00 p.m.

        11

        12

        13                  REGULAR SESSION

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        15

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        17       LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President

        18       STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary

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        20

        21

        22

        23











                                                             
1991

         1                      P R O C E E D I N G S

         2                      THE PRESIDENT:  The Senate will

         3       come to order.

         4                      Would everyone please rise and

         5       join me in the Pledge of Allegiance.

         6                      (Whereupon, the Senate and those

         7       present joined in the Pledge of Allegiance to

         8       the Flag.)

         9                      The invocation today is by Father

        10       Peter Young, Blessed Sacrament Church, Bolton

        11       Landing.

        12                      FATHER YOUNG:  Please let us

        13       pray.

        14                      We pray for all of our New York

        15       State people, that their wealth and their power

        16       might become a force for peace rather than

        17       conflict; a source of hope rather than

        18       discontent; an agent of friendship rather than

        19       enmity.

        20                      May the actions of this Senate be

        21       that example.

        22                      We ask You this now and forever.

        23                      Amen.











                                                             
1992

         1                      THE PRESIDENT:  Amen.

         2                      The reading of the Journal,

         3       please.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  In Senate,

         5       Monday, March 11.  The Senate met pursuant to

         6       adjournment.  The Journal of Sunday, March 10,

         7       was read and approved.  On motion, Senate

         8       adjourned.

         9                      THE PRESIDENT:  Without

        10       objection, the Journal stands approved as read.

        11                      Presentation of petitions.

        12                      Messages from the Assembly.

        13                      Messages from the Governor.

        14                      Reports of standing committees.

        15                      The Secretary will read.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Tully,

        17       from the Committee on Water Resources, reports

        18       the following bill:

        19                      Senate Print 5850, by Senator

        20       Johnson, an act to amend the Environmental

        21       Conservation Law, in relation to excluding from

        22       the definition of facility.

        23                      Senator Sears, from the Committee











                                                             
1993

         1       on Consumer Protection, reports the following

         2       bills:

         3                      Senate Print 1243B, by Senator

         4       Skelos, an act to amend the General Business Law

         5       and the Education Law, in relation to the

         6       registration of hearing aid dispensers;

         7                      Senate Print 3603, by Senator

         8       Cook, an act to amend the General Business Law,

         9       in relation to licensing of barbers;

        10                      4114, by Senator Cook, an act to

        11       amend the General Business Law, the Education

        12       Law, the Business Corporation Law, and the

        13       Not-For-Profit Corporation Law;

        14                      4457, by Senator Libous, an act

        15       to amend the General Business Law, in relation

        16       to unlawful possession of tobacco;

        17                      4493, by Senator Libous, an act

        18       to amend the General Business Law, in relation

        19       to storage, sale, and rental;

        20                      5760, by Senator Cook, an act to

        21       amend the General Business Law, in relation to

        22       requiring certain notification;

        23                      5772, by Senator Marcellino, an











                                                             
1994

         1       act to amend the General Business Law, in

         2       relation to conversion of oil;

         3                      5941, by Senator Velella, an act

         4       to amend the General Business Law, in relation

         5       to prohibiting discrimination;

         6                      6066, by Senator Sears, an act to

         7       amend the Personal Property Law, in relation to

         8       exclusion of certain transactions.

         9                      Senator Padavan, from the

        10       Committee on Cities, reports the following

        11       bills:

        12                      Senate Print 3159, by Senator

        13       Cook, an act to amend the General City Law and

        14       others, in relation to the creation of the

        15       position of zoning enforcement officer, reported

        16       with amendments;

        17                      6084, by Senator Padavan, an act

        18       to amend Chapter 890 of the laws of 1982,

        19       relating to the establishment of certain water

        20       charges.

        21                      Senator Stafford, from the

        22       Committee on Finance, reports the following

        23       bills:











                                                             
1995

         1                      Senate Print 1423, by Senator

         2       Saland, an act to amend the Executive Law, in

         3       relation to fees and expenses;

         4                      4837, by Senator Skelos, an act

         5       to amend the New York State Printing and Public

         6       Documents Law, in relation to requiring

         7       vegetable ink printing;

         8                      5729A, by Senator Seward, an act

         9       to amend the Executive Law, in relation to

        10       energy purchasing programs;

        11                      5756A, by Senator Hannon, an act

        12       to amend the Social Services Law, in relation to

        13       services of emergency physicians;

        14                      5764, by Senator Johnson, an act

        15       authorizing the Commissioner of Transportation;

        16                      5949, by Senator Seward, an act

        17       to amend the Abandoned Property Law and the

        18       Cooperative Corporations Law, in relation to the

        19       disposition.

        20                      Senator DiCarlo, from the

        21       Committee on Aging, reports the following

        22       bills:

        23                      Senate Print -











                                                             
1996

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Hold on.

         2       Excuse me.

         3                      SENATOR SKELOS:  If I could just

         4       interrupt for a moment.  There will be an

         5       immediate meeting of the Local Governments

         6       Committee in Room 332 of the Capitol, and there

         7       will be a meeting of the Transportation

         8       Committee in Room 332 of the Capitol at 3:30,

         9       not 3:32.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Immediate

        11       meeting of the Local Governments Committee in

        12       Room 332, the Majority Conference Room; and at

        13       3:30, there will be an immediate meeting of the

        14       Transportation Committee in Room 332, Majority

        15       Conference Room.

        16                      Secretary, continue to read.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator DiCarlo,

        18       from the Committee on Aging, reports the

        19       following bills:

        20                      Senate Print 4497, by Senator

        21       Libous, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic

        22       Law, in relation to authorizing senior citizens;

        23                      4632B, by Senator Goodman, an act











                                                             
1997

         1       to amend the General Business Law, in relation

         2       to additional civil penalties.

         3                      Senator Volker, from the

         4       Committee on Codes, reports the following

         5       bills:

         6                      402, by Senator Skelos, an act to

         7       amend the Penal Law, in relation to the monetary

         8       standards;

         9                      1436, by Senator Saland, an act

        10       to amend Chapter 505 of the Laws of 1985,

        11       amending the Criminal Procedure Law;

        12                      1972, by Senator DeFrancisco, an

        13       act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

        14       relation to access to sealed records;

        15                      2445, by Senator Volker, an act

        16       to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, in

        17       relation to limitations;

        18                      3450A, by Senator Skelos, an act

        19       to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules in

        20       relation to methods of commencing;

        21                      3695A, by Senator Volker, an act

        22       to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, in

        23       relation to the jurisdiction limit;











                                                             
1998

         1                      3768, by Senator Volker, an act

         2       to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, in

         3       relation to objections to service;

         4                      3784, by Senator Volker, an act

         5       to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, in

         6       relation to the recording of judicial rulings;

         7                      3811, by Senator Volker, an act

         8       to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, in

         9       relation to the nonjoinder and misjoinder of

        10       parties;

        11                      4439, by Senator Libous, an act

        12       to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation

        13       to venue;

        14                      4633A, by Senator Volker, an act

        15       to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, in

        16       relation to personal service by mail;

        17                      4686, by Senator DeFrancisco, an

        18       act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

        19       relation to the time limitations;

        20                      5740, by Senator Volker, an act

        21       to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules, in

        22       relation to product liability actions;

        23                      5743, by Senator Goodman, an act











                                                             
1999

         1       to amend the Penal Law, in relation to computer

         2       network.

         3                      Senator Marcellino, from the

         4       Committee on Environmental Conservation, reports

         5       the following bills:

         6                      Senate Print 608, by Senator

         7       Stafford, an act to amend the Environmental

         8       Conservation Law, in relation to increasing the

         9       criminal penalties;

        10                      4531, by Senator Libous, an act

        11       to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in

        12       relation to taking of pheasants;

        13                      5104, by Senator Saland, an act

        14       to amend the Environmental Conservation Law, in

        15       relation to the composition of the Hudson River

        16       Valley Greenway Communities Council;

        17                      6113, by Senator Marcellino, an

        18       act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law,

        19       in relation to interfering;

        20                      6213, by Senator Marcellino, an

        21       act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law,

        22       in relation to the drawing off of water from

        23       storage reservoirs;











                                                             
2000

         1                      6316, by Senator Marcellino, an

         2       act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law,

         3       in relation to permitting the hunting of game on

         4       Sunday;

         5                      6345, by Senator Marcellino, an

         6       act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law,

         7       in relation to providing for the revocation or

         8       suspension of a hunting license.

         9                      Senator Hoblock, from the

        10       Committee on Veterans and Military Affairs,

        11       reports the following bills:

        12                      Senate Print 218, by Senator

        13       Holland, an act to amend the Real Property Tax

        14       Law, in relation to alternative veterans

        15       exemption;

        16                      256A, by Senator Maltese, an act

        17       to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation

        18       to an optional school tax;

        19                      441, by Senator Maltese, an act

        20       to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in

        21       relation to authorizing distinctive plates;

        22                      1963, by Senator Larkin, an act

        23       to amend the Education Law, in relation to











                                                             
2001

         1       expanding student aid programs;

         2                      2092A, by Senator Maltese, an act

         3       to amend the Education Law, in relation to a

         4       program for graduate student aid to Vietnam

         5       veterans;

         6                      2984, by Senator Leibell, an act

         7       to amend the Education Law, in relation to

         8       student aid programs for Vietnam veterans;

         9                      3493A, by Senator Hoblock, an act

        10       to amend the Military Law, in relation to the

        11       deputy commander of the New York Army National

        12       Guard;

        13                      5796, by Senator Hoblock, an act

        14       to amend the Civil Service Law, in relation to

        15       the use of credits for veterans and disabled

        16       veterans; and

        17                      5844, by Senator Marchi, an act

        18       to amend the Highway Law, in relation to

        19       designating a portion of the state highway

        20       system.

        21                      All bills ordered directly for

        22       third reading.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without











                                                             
2002

         1       objection, all bills are reported directly to

         2       third reading.

         3                      Reports of select committees.

         4                      Communications and reports from

         5       state officers.

         6                      Motions and resolutions.

         7                      Chair recognizes Senator Farley.

         8                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Mr. President,

         9       on behalf of yourself, Senator Kuhl, I wish to

        10       recommit Senate Print Number 3535, Calendar 215,

        11       that is on the order of the third reading to the

        12       Committee on Housing and Community Development.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Calendar

        14       Number 215 is recommitted, enacting clause is

        15       stricken.

        16                      Senator Farley.

        17                      SENATOR FARLEY:  I don't know

        18       that it -- it blanked out the enacting clause on

        19       this.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  That's

        21       all right.  We'll just recommit Calendar Number

        22       215.

        23                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Just -- I don't











                                                             
2003

         1       know whether they want to strike the enacting

         2       clause.  They do not.

         3                      On behalf of Senator Nozzolio, on

         4       page 18, I offer the following amendments to

         5       Calendar 376, Senate Print 3537, and I ask that

         6       that bill retain its place on the Third Reading

         7       Calendar.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         9       Amendments to Calendar Number 376 are received

        10       and adopted.  Bill will retain its place on

        11       Third Reading Calendar.

        12                      Senator Farley.

        13                      SENATOR FARLEY:  On behalf of

        14       Senator Padavan, on page 17, I offer the

        15       following amendments to Calendar 367, Senate

        16       Print 669, and I ask that that bill retain its

        17       place.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Calendar

        19       Number 367, the amendments are received and

        20       adopted.  The bill will retain its place on

        21       Third Reading Calendar.

        22                      Senator Skelos.

        23                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,











                                                             
2004

         1       would you place a sponsor's star on Calendar

         2       Number 347.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Calendar

         4       Number 347 is starred at the request of the

         5       sponsor.

         6                      Senator Marcellino.

         7                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Yes, Mr.

         8       President.  On page number 9, I offer the

         9       following amendments to my bill, Calendar Number

        10       249, Senate Print Number 4529C, and ask that

        11       said bill retain its place on Third Reading

        12       Calendar.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        14       Amendments to Calendar Number 249 are received

        15       and adopted.  Bill will retain its place on the

        16       Third Reading Calendar.

        17                      Senator Holland.

        18                      SENATOR HOLLAND:  Mr. President.

        19       On page 18, I offer the following amendments for

        20       Senator Cook, Calendar Number 375, Senate Print

        21       Number 3153, and ask that the said bill retain

        22       its place on the Third Reading Calendar.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:











                                                             
2005

         1       Amendments to Calendar Number 375 received and

         2       adopted.  Bill will retain its place on the

         3       Third Reading Calendar.

         4                      Senator Skelos.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.

         6       At this time, may we please adopt the Resolution

         7       Calendar.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         9       motion is to accept and adopt the Resolution

        10       Calendar.

        11                      All those in favor signify by

        12       saying aye.

        13                      (Response of "Aye.")

        14                      Opposed, nay.

        15                      (There was no response.)

        16                      Resolution Calendar is adopted.

        17                      Senator Skelos.

        18                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        19       Resolution Number 2656, which concerns Greek

        20       Independence Day, if anybody wishes to sponsor

        21       it, you're more than welcome to do so.  It's the

        22       Skelos-Onorato Resolution.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Those











                                                             
2006

         1       members who would like to sponsor Resolution

         2       Number 2656, by Senator Skelos, please indicate

         3       to the clerk that they would like to indicate or

         4       have such done.

         5                      Senator Skelos, it appears that

         6       most members would like to be on it.  Would you

         7       like to put everybody on it, and those who don't

         8       want to be a sponsor of the resolution, please

         9       indicate to the clerk that they don't want to be

        10       on it.

        11                      Senator Skelos, that brings us to

        12       the calendar.

        13                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        14       at this time, if we could take up the

        15       noncontroversial calendar.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        17       will read the noncontroversial calendar.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 10,

        19       Calendar Number 263, by Senator Padavan, Senate

        20       Print 3089B.

        21                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay it aside.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        23       bill aside.











                                                             
2007

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       308, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 6038.

         3                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it aside.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         5       bill aside.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       311, by Senator Present, Senate Print 1931A.

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it aside.

         9                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay it aside.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        11       bill aside.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       312, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3073, an

        14       act to amend the State Administrative Procedure

        15       Act, in relation to requiring that agencies

        16       conduct and include a formal cost/benefit

        17       analysis.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        19       Secretary will read the last section.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        21       act shall take effect on the first day of

        22       October.

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it aside.











                                                             
2008

         1                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay it aside at

         2       the request of Senator Paterson.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         4       bill aside.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         6       313, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3137, an

         7       act to amend the State Administrative Procedure

         8       Act, in relation to requiring that state rules

         9       not -

        10                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay it aside.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        12       bill aside.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       319, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 1618A, an

        15       act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

        16       consecutive terms of imprisonment under certain

        17       circumstances.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        19       Secretary will read the last section.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        21       act shall take effect on the first day of

        22       November.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the











                                                             
2009

         1       roll.

         2                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 49.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         5       is passed.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       328, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 3521,

         8       an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

         9       relation to attendance of defendants confined in

        10       institutions.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        12       Secretary will read the last section.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        14       act shall take effect immediately.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        16       roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 49.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        20       is passed.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       330, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 4297, an

        23       act to amend the Civil Rights Law, in relation











                                                             
2010

         1       to access to personnel files of parole officers.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         3       Secretary will read the last section.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         5       act shall take effect immediately.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         7       roll.

         8                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 49.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        11       is passed.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       338, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 5833, an

        14       act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law, in relation

        15       to authorizing the Commissioner of Mental Health

        16       to fingerprint certain patients.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        18       Secretary will read the last section.

        19                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay it aside.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        21       bill aside.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       341, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 4643,











                                                             
2011

         1       an act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation

         2       to the premium or compensation for giving bail

         3       bond or depositing money or property as bail.

         4                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it aside.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         6       bill aside.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         8       343, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 6004, an

         9       act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

        10       expanding provisions relating to insurable

        11       interest.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        13       Secretary will read the last section.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        15       act shall take effect immediately.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        17       roll.

        18                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        21       is passed.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       344, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 6125, an











                                                             
2012

         1       act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

         2       continuing authorization for certain prepaid

         3       legal services plans.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         5       Secretary will read the last section.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         7       act shall take effect immediately.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         9       roll.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        13       is passed.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        15       349, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 4805, an

        16       act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation

        17       to notification of patients upon sale, closing

        18       or disposal of a practitioner's practice.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        20       Secretary will read the last section.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        22       act shall take effect in 120 days.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the











                                                             
2013

         1       roll.

         2                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

         4       the results when tabulated.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 53 -- ayes

         6       50, nays 4.  Senators Connor, Leichter, Paterson

         7       and Stavisky recorded in the negative.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         9       is passed.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       356, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 3974, an act

        12       to amend the Labor Law, in relation to licenses

        13       to possess, sell, manufacture and store

        14       explosives.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        16       Secretary will read the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        18       act shall take effect on the 90th day.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        20       roll.

        21                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        22                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it aside.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the











                                                             
2014

         1       bill aside.

         2                      SENATOR SPANO:  Lay it aside for

         3       the day, please.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         5       bill aside for the day at the request of the

         6       sponsor.

         7                      Senator Skelos, that completes

         8       the noncontroversial calendar.

         9                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Lachman, why do you rise?

        12                      SENATOR LACHMAN:  Yes, Mr.

        13       President.  I would like to ask permission,

        14       unanimous consent, from this distinguished body

        15       to be recorded in the negative on the following

        16       calendar items:  263, 311, 312, 313 and 349,

        17       five items.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Lachman, Calendar Number 263, 311 and 313 have

        20       not passed the house at this point.  They are on

        21       the lay aside controversial calendar, but

        22       without objection, and hearing no objection,

        23       Senator Lachman will be recorded in the negative











                                                             
2015

         1       on Calendar Number 349.

         2                      Senator Skelos, that brings us to

         3       the controversial calendar.

         4                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Senator Libous

         5       would like to have Calendar Number 338 laid

         6       aside for the day.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Calendar

         8       Number 338 will be laid aside for the day at the

         9       request of the sponsor.

        10                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Could we go to

        11       the controversial calendar now.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        13       will read the controversial calendar beginning

        14       with Calendar Number 263.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 10,

        16       Calendar Number 263, by Senator Padavan, Senate

        17       Print 3089B, an act to amend the Education Law,

        18       in relation to the exclusion of illegal aliens

        19       from attending public post-secondary educational

        20       institutions.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       Padavan, an explanation of Calendar Number 263

        23       has been asked for by the Acting Minority











                                                             
2016

         1       Leader, Senator Paterson.

         2                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes, Mr.

         3       President.  This bill would preclude illegal

         4       aliens from attending State University and City

         5       University.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         7       will read the last section.

         8                      Senator Paterson.

         9                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

        10       President.  If Senator Padavan would yield to a

        11       question?

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Padavan, do you yield to a question from Senator

        14       Paterson?

        15                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        17       Senator yields.

        18                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Could you

        19       explain this bill in a little more detail,

        20       Senator Padavan?

        21                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Well, Senator,

        22       I don't know how to do that, except to tell you

        23       very directly if you are an illegal alien, you











                                                             
2017

         1       cannot under the provisions of this bill, if it

         2       were to become law, attend City University and

         3       State University.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Paterson.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  If Senator

         7       Padavan would continue to yield?

         8                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       continues to yield.

        11                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator, right

        12       now, federal law does in many ways restrict the

        13       reporting of certain information deemed to be

        14       private by school authorities, and would it not

        15       be correct to assume that this statute may be in

        16       violation of the federal law?  Not the reporting

        17       of illegal aliens, because that's something

        18       that's against the law.  So I assume between the

        19       two values that the one that would exclude

        20       illegality would be the favorable one, but that

        21       because this system that we're setting up would

        22       force, at times, entities to report that

        23       individuals are not illegal aliens, that in and











                                                             
2018

         1       of itself would be a violation of the law.

         2                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  There are two

         3       parts to my answer to that question.

         4                      First, if you had occasion to

         5       look at an application for State University or

         6       City University, and I have one in front of me

         7       which you can certainly look at on your own, but

         8       let me just, for the general information of

         9       those in attendance here -- one section of it

        10       asks, "Are you a U.S. Citizen? Yes__ No__.

        11       If no, please state country of birth.  Country

        12       of citizenship.  Immigration status:  U.S.

        13       permanent resident?  Alien registration card?"

        14       et cetera, et cetera.  So right on the City

        15       University and State University application for

        16       admission, the information that you are

        17       referring to is asked for.

        18                      Secondly, the federal statute or

        19       federal law that I think you were referring to

        20       indicates, and I quote, education records as not

        21       including records maintained -- this is the

        22       quote, "records maintained by a law enforcement

        23       unit of the educational agency or institution











                                                             
2019

         1       that were created by that law enforcement unit

         2       for the purpose of law enforcement."  So, in

         3       other words, if we pass this law, the federal

         4       statute would not preclude this information.

         5                      But in any event, I repeat, it's

         6       already asked for today but ignored.  We have

         7       some 4,000 by best estimates that are available

         8       to us, and a recent report from City University

         9       seems to confirm that, students in State and

        10       City University who are in this country

        11       illegally and in City University, they are

        12       allowing them to pay resident rates, not

        13       out-of-state rates.  The total subsidy from the

        14       taxpayers of this state is approximately, at

        15       minimum, 35 million.  It could be as high as 40

        16       million.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Paterson.

        19                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        20       President.  If Senator Padavan would continue to

        21       yield.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        23       continues to yield.











                                                             
2020

         1                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator, I

         2       understand your answer, but I'm still a little

         3       confused about the reporting that would exist

         4       when the school answers where an outside agency

         5       is seeking the information and it is later

         6       determined that the individual is a legal

         7       permanent resident or is a resident or a citizen

         8       or is, in some way, not an illegal alien.

         9                      So what I'm saying to you is that

        10       while you would be correct with respect to

        11       illegal aliens, what I am concerned about is the

        12       stigma that would occur for individuals who

        13       would not fit within that classification.  As

        14       you are aware, it is really the spirit of our

        15       law that we are trying not always to find the

        16       guilty as much as to preserve the rights and

        17       privacy of the innocent.  That's why we have the

        18       federal Rights and Privacy Act.  And so, what

        19       I'm saying to you is, it would seem to me that

        20       what your legislation would do would be to go

        21       right in the face of that.

        22                      Now, we had this discussion last

        23       year, and since that time, in November, November











                                                             
2021

         1       20th in fact, a Federal District Court in

         2       California overthrew the elements of Proposition

         3       187, which I think speak to what you are

         4       addressing here, and at that time, a judge by

         5       the name of Failzer, commenting on this, pretty

         6       much in his dicta states what I'm trying to tell

         7       you right now, which is, that it would be

         8       important to identify and remove from our tax

         9       rolls the support of illegal aliens.  However,

        10       to use the educational system as a policing

        11       agency and to use health care workers, in other

        12       types of legislation, for this purpose is

        13       exactly the kind of action that seems to be held

        14       to be unconstitutional by a number of courts

        15       around this country.

        16                      So what I'm asking you again is

        17       not the part about how much we're spending on

        18       illegal aliens but the issue of jeopardizing

        19       those individuals who have a legal right to be

        20       here because they are permanent residents or

        21       because they are citizens who by virtue of some

        22       stigma can be affected under your legislation.

        23                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Senator, with











                                                             
2022

         1       all due respect, what is your question?

         2                      SENATOR PATERSON:  My question is

         3       don't you think that this legislation impinges

         4       upon the rights of those who have a right to be

         5       here by, in a sense, creating a situation where

         6       the revealing of that information may not be in

         7       conformity with our Constitution?

         8                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  No, I don't

         9       believe that.  And as I indicated to you

        10       earlier, we already -- when I say "we," the

        11       State and City Universities already require that

        12       information to be provided.  However, policies

        13       that they have adopted, particularly City

        14       University, are such that when someone does not

        15       provide information as to their immigration

        16       status, visa, green card, temporary visa and any

        17       other category that the federal government

        18       provides, are still allowing thousands to attend

        19       the university, even charging them resident

        20       rates.

        21                      Now, if there's anybody suffering

        22       here, it's the students in City University who,

        23       as you know, today are laboring under











                                                             
2023

         1       circumstances that are not ideal, not enough

         2       courses being provided, many, many shortcomings

         3       that we are attempting to deal with in this

         4       budget, as in the past, and it seems to me that

         5       we should be doing everything we can to see that

         6       those monies are being spent wisely and, in my

         7       view, they are not being spent wisely when they

         8       are used to provide tuition subsidy to people

         9       who are in this country illegally.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Paterson.

        12                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        13       President.  Thank Senator Padavan for his

        14       answer.

        15                      On the bill, Mr. President.

        16                      What I still feel is that Senator

        17       Padavan is not incorrect in what he is trying to

        18       address.  He is not incorrect in identifying a

        19       problem.  What I feel is incorrect is the manner

        20       in which we're trying to reach a solution.  If

        21       we are experiencing the devastating budget cuts

        22       and the other obstacles to a realized education

        23       that Senator Padavan referred to, I think we may











                                                             
2024

         1       be unnecessarily burdening the already

         2       dilapidated economic base by expending greater

         3       amounts of money investigating to determine who

         4       is and who is not an illegal alien.

         5                      We have an immigration and

         6       naturalization service that provides that; and

         7       to whatever extent they need to come on the

         8       scene and conduct investigations there, I don't

         9       have an objection to that.  But what we are now

        10       doing is we are passing this information along

        11       to other institutions, denying rights, denying

        12       privileges and denying certain protections that

        13       have been set forth in our law to such an extent

        14       that I think we're bordering on tampering with

        15       the rights granted in our Constitution.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       Gold.

        18                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yes, Mr.

        19       President.  Just briefly.

        20                      I appreciate Senator Padavan's

        21       patience in explaining the bill again since we

        22       have been through it before.  But I adopt

        23       everything that Senator Paterson says, and I











                                                             
2025

         1       just think that in some areas we're going in a

         2       very, very difficult direction.

         3                      We had a bill earlier today in

         4       one of the committees which was talking about

         5       breaking the confidentiality, the relationship

         6       between a patient and his or her doctor.  We've

         7       had too many bills, I think, which put people

         8       into jobs that they didn't bargain for and

         9       things which are not their jobs, and this is

        10       perhaps another one, and there is a memo I have

        11       from the State University of New York where they

        12       say they are opposed to this.  They do not know

        13       where they would get the money to do it and,

        14       basically, in effect, they say it is just not

        15       their job.

        16                      I think that as much as I can

        17       understand the motivation of Senator Padavan and

        18       I understand that there are some people who

        19       resent money being spent in certain ways, I

        20       think that we, as the Legislature, in some of

        21       the bills that we pass set broad principles, and

        22       we're getting into areas which, I think, are

        23       very muddy and very dangerous waters when we











                                                             
2026

         1       take people and try to give them jobs which are

         2       outside the scope of what their job is.

         3                      Let the universities teach

         4       children, and let the INS and others do their

         5       job, and let them keep it separate.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       Dollinger.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Would Senator

         9       Padavan yield to a question?

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Padavan, do you yield to a question from Senator

        12       Dollinger?

        13                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        15       Senator yields.

        16                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Senator, as I

        17       recall this bill from last year, one of the

        18       complaints of SUNY and CUNY was this would

        19       create a huge administrative burden for the

        20       state and city universities, and you and I

        21       discussed this bill.  I agree with the notion

        22       that illegal aliens shouldn't be permitted to go

        23       and enjoy the benefits of a publicly-funded











                                                             
2027

         1       college education.

         2                      My question is, how does this

         3       bill achieve that goal?  And that is one of the

         4       things I believe they raised in their memo last

         5       year -- I don't have it in front of me this year

         6        -- is that the cost in the administrative

         7       burden of actually doing this would be very

         8       substantial.  I would be interested in your view

         9       on it.

        10                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  That

        11       administrative burden disturbs me, when I keep

        12       hearing it, for two reasons.

        13                      Excuse me.  I'm getting advice

        14       from my counsel here.

        15                      I will spare you a reciting.  But

        16       if you look at the State University application

        17       on page 32, items 43 through 49 deal entirely

        18       with the issue at hand.  It says you must fill

        19       this out if you are not a U.S. citizen.  That's

        20       already the case.

        21                      Similarly, on the City University

        22       application, which I also have here, there are a

        23       number of questions which must be answered by











                                                             
2028

         1       every applicant.  Now, what is happening is

         2       students are not providing that information and

         3       being enrolled, by the thousands.

         4                      So when you talk about an

         5       administrative burden, I don't quite follow you,

         6       in that the current applications provide

         7       administratively for a student identifying his

         8       status in this country if he does not check off

         9       the block, "Are you a U.S. citizen?"  If he says

        10       no, the current application requires that he

        11       indicate his visa, his expiration date, et

        12       cetera.  So that's the issue here, Senator.

        13                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Fine.  Mr.

        14       President, will Senator Padavan yield to just a

        15       couple more questions?

        16                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  This statute,

        18       this bill uses the phrase "verify," and my

        19       question is -- the question is asked on the

        20       application.  Is this going to require the

        21       student to bring additional information, be it

        22       birth certificate, citizenship paper, passport,

        23       whatever it is, in order to verify for the











                                                             
2029

         1       public institution -- to verify the accuracy of

         2       the disclosures made in that application?

         3                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Well, you say

         4       verify.  If there is any question about the

         5       appropriateness of the information, that would

         6       be required in any case.  A student must bring

         7       his transcript from high school.  He must prove

         8       many other things, his SAT scores.  A whole host

         9       of information must be provided with every

        10       college application.  Having gone through that

        11       with both my children, I can vouch for that.

        12                      So if there is any question about

        13       his status, how much more difficult is it to

        14       provide the visa or green card application, a

        15       copy of it, or whatever, or the information or

        16       the number, along with all the other information

        17       that is required for a college application,

        18       particularly in view of the fact that there is a

        19       section in the applications of SUNY and CUNY

        20       that facilitate this currently.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Again,

        22       through you, Mr. President.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator











                                                             
2030

         1       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

         2                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         4       Senator continues to yield.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  The bill on

         6       page 2 and line 13 says that the institution has

         7       the obligation if it learns that the person is

         8       not a legal alien in this country.  In other

         9       words, if there is evidence or -- and this is

        10       the critical question, "A person who is under

        11       the reasonable suspicion of being..."  Could you

        12       tell me what's intended by that phrase and what

        13       circumstances in which an educational

        14       institution would have a reasonable suspicion of

        15       a person being an illegal alien, which I presume

        16       if this bill took effect would require them to

        17       produce information to show that they weren't?

        18                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  The phrase

        19       "reasonable", of course, is subjective.  The

        20       institution would make that determination.  If

        21       reasonable in their mind, just to use a

        22       hypothetical case, a student who filed an

        23       application indicated they were not a U.S.











                                                             
2031

         1       citizen and did not provide the information

         2       that's currently required.  They refused to do

         3       so.  It might be reasonable, then, to assume

         4       that person is here illegally.

         5                      However, that would be a judgment

         6       they would make.  We're not trying to tell them

         7       how to act in that fashion.  But we do think

         8       it's appropriate for a state-funded entity,

         9       whatever it may be, that if they are made aware

        10       of an illegal alien situation to report it to

        11       the appropriate authority.  They are violating

        12       our laws.  They are law breakers.

        13                      On top of that, they are trying

        14       to get a subsidized education at our expense

        15       when they have no right even to be in the

        16       country.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Again through

        18       you, Mr. President, if Senator Padavan would

        19       continue to yield just to one more -- two more.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        21       Padavan, do you continue to yield?

        22                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator











                                                             
2032

         1       continues to yield.

         2                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Two other

         3       very quick questions.

         4                      First of all, what is the penalty

         5       if the educational institution does not perform

         6       the obligations contained in paragraph 3 of the

         7       bill?

         8                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  There is no

         9       penalty.

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  There is no

        11       penalty on the educational institution?

        12                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  No.

        13                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  They just

        14       disregard it.

        15                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  No, there's no

        16       penalty.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  In addition,

        18       Senator, why would -- it says here that they

        19       will tell the Commissioner.  What authority does

        20       the Commissioner have over this?  Why is that?

        21       Is that just for statistical gathering purposes

        22       or is that in there for some other reason, that

        23       the Commissioner of Education would need to know











                                                             
2033

         1       whether the student was.

         2                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  I don't know if

         3       he needs to know.  I think it would be desirable

         4       for us to have an idea for future actions or

         5       reference or whatever.  However, I don't believe

         6       there is a need if that's your question.

         7                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Through you,

         8       Mr. President, one final question?

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Padavan?

        11                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  How does the

        12       B print differ from the A print, Senator, if you

        13       know how that amendment was made or what

        14       amendment was made?

        15                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Well, we had to

        16       change the dates.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Okay.

        18                      Just briefly on the bill, Mr.

        19       President.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        21       Dollinger on the bill.

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Thank you,

        23       Senator Padavan.  I have voted for a number of











                                                             
2034

         1       these measures which have come out in the last

         2       year to deal with the concept of illegal

         3       aliens.  I share Senator Padavan's concern that

         4       those who come to this country illegally at a

         5       time when we still allow, I believe, abundant

         6       legal immigration to this country and when there

         7       are many avenues to come to this country, those

         8       who come here illegally we do not have an

         9       obligation to, and they can become legal.  There

        10       are many options for that.

        11                      And, at least from my

        12       perspective, I think we can draw a line between

        13       access to the CUNY system and the SUNY system

        14       for legal aliens and those who are illegal; but,

        15       nonetheless, I think this bill is still flawed

        16       because it shifts to the administration of SUNY

        17       and CUNY the notion of being the tattletale;

        18       that they are going to be involved in the

        19       detection and enforcement of the Immigration and

        20       Naturalization Law.

        21                      I do think and I agree with SUNY

        22       that it will create a very significant unfunded

        23       mandate.  I think for that reason and the fact











                                                             
2035

         1       that without a penalty attached, there is no

         2       real reason why, at least in my judgment, SUNY

         3       and CUNY would even abide by the statute, unless

         4       there's some way that it could be enforced.

         5                      So I think there are a whole host

         6       of technical problems that, at least in my mind,

         7       would militate for a vote against it.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The chair

         9       recognizes Senator Espada.

        10                      SENATOR ESPADA:  Thank you, Mr.

        11       President.  I certainly do not rise to debate

        12       this bill.  Quite honestly, I don't think it's

        13       worthy of debate.  We did that last year.  We've

        14       done it a couple of times before that.

        15                      It's not just this bill.  There

        16       has been a campaign.  This is a package of

        17       bills, much like Proposition 187 in California,

        18       much of it struck down.  Many of these

        19       propositions deny health care, education.

        20       Turning institutions that ought to help people

        21       into immigration check points has been

        22       determined to be unconstitutional.

        23                      This is no debate here.  It is











                                                             
2036

         1       ugly, it's evil, it's hurtful.  It reminds one

         2       of the Buchanan campaign that made a brief stop

         3       here in New York State.  It was rejected by New

         4       York State.  It has no role in our public policy

         5       debates.  It would risk federal funding; would

         6       turn teachers, social workers, and others into

         7       enforcers for a federal function that needs to

         8       be addressed.  Most definitely needs to be

         9       addressed, needs to be funded, needs to be

        10       enforced.

        11                      Again, this is not our role

        12       here.  This will never become law.  If it

        13       becomes law, the courts will deal with it.  I

        14       really wish that we would see the end of these

        15       kinds of bills because really, again, they are

        16       ugly and serve no good public purpose, Mr.

        17       President.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        19       will read the last section.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        21       act shall take effect on the 180th day.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        23       roll.











                                                             
2037

         1                      SENATOR GOLD:  Slow roll call.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Slow roll

         3       call has been requested.  Are there five members

         4       in the chamber wishing to do that?  Will they

         5       stand up?

         6                      Okay.  There are five members

         7       requesting a slow roll call.

         8                      Secretary will call the roll

         9       slowly.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Abate.

        11                      SENATOR ABATE:  No.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Alesi.

        13                      SENATOR ALESI:  Yes.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Babbush.

        15                      (There was no response.)

        16                      Senator Bruno.

        17                      (Indicating "Aye.")

        18                      Senator Connor.

        19                      (Indicating "Nay.")

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Cook.

        21                      (There was no response.)

        22                      Senator DeFrancisco.

        23                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Yes.











                                                             
2038

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator DiCarlo.

         2                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Aye.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         4       Dollinger.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  No.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Espada.

         7                      SENATOR ESPADA:  No.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Farley.

         9                      (There was no response.)

        10                      Senator Gold.

        11                      SENATOR GOLD:  No.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        13       Gonzalez.

        14                      SENATOR GONZALEZ:  No.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Goodman.

        16                      (There was no response.)

        17                      Senator Hannon.

        18                      (There was no response.)

        19                      Senator Hoblock.

        20                      SENATOR HOBLOCK:  Yes.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Hoffmann,

        22       excused.  Senator Holland.

        23                      SENATOR HOLLAND:  Yes.











                                                             
2039

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Johnson.

         2                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Aye.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Kruger.

         4                      SENATOR KRUGER:  Yes.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Kuhl.

         6                      SENATOR KUHL:  Aye.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Lachman.

         8                      (There was no response.)

         9                      Senator Lack.

        10                      SENATOR LACK:  Aye.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Larkin.

        12                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Aye.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator LaValle.

        14                      SENATOR LAVALLE:  Yes.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Leibell.

        16                      SENATOR LEIBELL:  Aye.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Leichter.

        18                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  No.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Levy.

        20                      SENATOR LEVY:  Aye.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Libous.

        22                      (There was no response.)

        23                      Senator Maltese.











                                                             
2040

         1                      SENATOR MALTESE:  Aye.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         3       Marcellino.

         4                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Aye.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Marchi.

         6                      SENATOR MARCHI:  Aye.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         8       Markowitz.

         9                      SENATOR MARKOWITZ:  No.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Maziarz.

        11                      (There was no response.)

        12                      Senator Mendez.

        13                      (There was no response.)

        14                      Senator Montgomery.

        15                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  No.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Nanula.

        17                      SENATOR NANULA:  No.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        19       Nozzolio.

        20                      SENATOR NOZZOLIO:  Aye.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Onorato.

        22                      SENATOR ONORATO:  Aye.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator











                                                             
2041

         1       Oppenheimer.

         2                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Aye.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Padavan.

         4                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Yes.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Paterson.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  No.

         7                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Gold, why do you rise?

        10                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator Weinstein

        11       is having trouble hearing.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Present.

        13                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Aye.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Rath.

        15                      SENATOR RATH:  Yes.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Saland.

        17                      SENATOR SALAND:  Aye.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        19       Santiago.

        20                      SENATOR SANTIAGO:  No.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Seabrook.

        22                      (There was no response.)

        23                      Senator Sears.











                                                             
2042

         1                      SENATOR SEARS:  Aye.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Seward.

         3                      SENATOR SEWARD:  Yes.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Skelos.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Yes.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Smith.

         7                      SENATOR SMITH:  No.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Spano.

         9                      SENATOR SPANO:  Aye.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        11       Stachowski.

        12                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Yes.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

        14       Stafford.

        15                      (There was no response.)

        16                      Senator Stavisky.

        17                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  No.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Trunzo.

        19                      SENATOR TRUNZO:  Yes.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Tully.

        21                      SENATOR TULLY:  Aye.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Velella.

        23                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.











                                                             
2043

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Volker.

         2                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Waldon.

         4                      SENATOR WALDON:  No.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Wright.

         6                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Aye.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         8       will call the absentees.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Babbush,

        10       excused.  Senator Cook.

        11                      SENATOR COOK:  Yes.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Farley.

        13                      (There was no response.)

        14                      Senator Goodman.

        15                      (There was no response.)

        16                      Senator Hannon.

        17                      SENATOR HANNON:  Yes.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Lachman.

        19                      (There was no response.)

        20                      Senator Libous.

        21                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Aye.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Maziarz.

        23                      SENATOR MAZIARZ:  Aye.











                                                             
2044

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Mendez.

         2                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  No.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator

         4       Seabrook.

         5                      (There was no response.)

         6                      Senator Stafford.

         7                      (There was no response.)

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

         9       the results.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 38, nays 16.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        12       is passed.

        13                      Senator Stafford, why do you

        14       rise?

        15                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Mr.

        16       President.  I was in a meeting outside the

        17       chamber and came back to vote on the last bill.

        18       It should be pointed out, please, that if I had

        19       been in the chamber, I would have voted aye.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        21       Stafford, the record will reflect that had you

        22       been in the chamber when the roll call was

        23       completed -











                                                             
2045

         1                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Aye.  Thank

         2       you.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         4       will announce the results.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 39, nays 16.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         7       is passed.

         8                      Secretary will continue to call

         9        -- before we do that, Senator Abate, why do you

        10       rise?

        11                      SENATOR ABATE:  Mr. President, I

        12       ask for unanimous consent to be recorded in the

        13       negative on Calendar Number 349.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

        15       objection, and hearing no objection, Senator

        16       Abate will be recorded in the negative on

        17       Calendar Number 349.

        18                      Senator Paterson, why do you

        19       rise?

        20                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

        21       I'm just a little unclear about procedure.  Did

        22       we just add an affirmative vote after the slow

        23       roll call?











                                                             
2046

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         2       Paterson, the determination of the chair was

         3       that Senator Stafford was in the chamber.  He

         4       was walking through the door before the roll

         5       call was announced, and so we gave him the

         6       opportunity to register his vote, which we have

         7       done for a number of members on both sides of

         8       the aisle in the past, and the courtesy was

         9       extended to Senator Stafford.

        10                      SENATOR PATERSON:  We could have

        11       done it for no member as distinguished as

        12       Senator Stafford.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        14       Appreciate your bringing that to the Chamber's

        15       attention, Senator Paterson.  It's always

        16       enlightening to have you participate.

        17                      I would note for the record that

        18       we are a little noisy this afternoon so, so that

        19       we can proceed with the business in an orderly

        20       way, could we quiet it down, please.

        21                      Thank you.

        22                      Ask the Secretary to continue to

        23       call the controversial calendar.











                                                             
2047

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       308, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 6038, an act

         3       to amend the Railroad Law, in relation to police

         4       officers of a commuter railroad police force.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay it aside for

         6       the day.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         8       bill aside for the day.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       311, by Senator Present, Senate Print 1931A, an

        11       act to amend the State Administrative Procedure

        12       Act, in relation to regulatory relief.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Present, an explanation of Calendar Number 311

        15       has been asked for by Senator Gold.

        16                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Senator Gold?

        17                      SENATOR GOLD:  Everybody.

        18                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Everybody.

        19                      Mr. President, we have addressed

        20       this bill before in the chamber, passed it, I

        21       think, several years.

        22                      This bill would require state

        23       agencies who promulgate rules and regulations to











                                                             
2048

         1       submit a regulatory impact statement for those

         2       new rules that contain specific costs to the

         3       regulated parties.  I think it's about time that

         4       we require agencies who promulgate rules and

         5       regulations to analyze their proposed rules to

         6       determine what the cost will be on those whom

         7       they are attempting to regulate.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

         9       any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?

        10                      Senator Leichter.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yes, Mr.

        12       President.  I think we debated this bill fully

        13       last year, and I just wish to point out that a

        14       number of members decided that the bill did not

        15       deserve an affirmative vote, and those members

        16       included Senators Abate, Connor, Dollinger,

        17       Espada, Galiber, Gold, Kruger, Leichter,

        18       Markowitz, Mendez, Montgomery, Onorato,

        19       Oppenheimer, Paterson, Smith, Solomon,

        20       Stachowski, Waldon, Goodman, Levy, and Tully.

        21                      So both sides of the aisle

        22       thought, Senator Present, that as well

        23       intentioned as the bill was it needed a little











                                                             
2049

         1       more work, and I gather this year's version

         2       still needs a little more work, so -

         3                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr. President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Present on the bill.

         6                      SENATOR PRESENT:  The good

         7       Senator named off those who voted against it,

         8       and I won't attempt to name off all those who

         9       voted for it.  Apparently, it was a majority of

        10       the necessary votes.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        12       Secretary will read the last section.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 8.  This

        14       act shall take effect on the first of October.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        16       roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

        19       the results when tabulated.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

        21       the negative on Calendar Number 311 are Senators

        22       Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gold, Kruger,

        23       Lachman, Leibell, Leichter, Marcellino,











                                                             
2050

         1       Markowitz, Montgomery, Onorato, Paterson,

         2       Santiago, Seabrook, Stachowski, Stavisky, Tully,

         3       Velella and Waldon, also Senator Abate, also

         4       Senator LaValle.  Ayes 37, nays 22.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         6       is passed.

         7                      Secretary will continue to call

         8       the controversial calendar.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       312, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3073, an

        11       act to amend the State Administrative Procedure

        12       Act, in relation to requiring that agencies

        13       conduct and include a formal cost/benefit

        14       analysis.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Wright, an explanation of Calendar Number 312

        17       has been asked for by the Acting Minority

        18       Leader.

        19                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Thank you, Mr.

        20       President.  The act provides for amendments to

        21       the Administrative Procedure Act and formalizes

        22       the requirement that a cost/benefit analysis

        23       will be prepared as part of the regulatory











                                                             
2051

         1       impact statement that's currently provided.  All

         2       too often the current regulatory impact

         3       statements are exceedingly brief.  This will

         4       provide greater detail, a formal comparison and

         5       evaluations of cost/benefits and, more

         6       importantly, require that methodology is made

         7       available for those questioning the regulatory

         8       impact to have the opportunity to challenge

         9       that.  This bill has been before the house

        10       before and, in fact, successfully passed the

        11       Senate last year 60 to nothing.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Chair

        13       recognizes Senator Paterson.

        14                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you very

        15       much, Senator Wright.  I just wanted to advise

        16       the members that the Environmental Protection

        17       Lobby, who did not oppose this legislation last

        18       year, opposes it very strongly this year, since

        19       it's a change -- there were three chimney

        20       stacks, and this was an issue that has changed

        21       in terms of the advocacy.  As it is similar to

        22       the last bill, I thought I would bring that to

        23       the body's attention.











                                                             
2052

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         2       Secretary will read the last section.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         4       act shall take effect on the first day of

         5       October.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         7       roll.

         8                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

        10       the results when tabulated.

        11                      Chair recognizes Senator Wright

        12       to explain his vote.

        13                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Thank you, Mr.

        14       President.

        15                      I would like to explain my vote.

        16       Since the memo of opposition from the EPL

        17       certainly has had a compelling argument among

        18       some of my colleagues, I would like to point out

        19       that the National Federation of Independent

        20       Businesses, the small business organization in

        21       this state, is very supportive of the bill, as

        22       is the New York State Conference of Mayors and

        23       Municipal Officials.











                                                             
2053

         1                      Just so the record notes, my vote

         2       is being influenced by those two organizations.

         3                      Thank you, Mr. President.  I vote

         4       aye.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Wright will be recorded in the affirmative.

         7                      Announce the results.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

         9       the negative on Calendar Number 312 are Senators

        10       Abate, Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gonzalez,

        11       Kruger, Lachman, Leibell, Leichter, Levy,

        12       Marcellino, Markowitz, Nanula, Onorato,

        13       Paterson, Santiago, Smith, Stavisky, also

        14       Senator Seabrook, also Senator LaValle, also

        15       Senator Gold, also Senator Stachowski.

        16                      Ayes 37, nays 22.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        18       is passed.

        19                      Secretary will continue to read

        20       the controversial calendar.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       313, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3137, an

        23       act to amend the State Administrative Procedure











                                                             
2054

         1       Act, in relation to requiring that state rules

         2       not impose standards higher than those of

         3       federal law.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Leichter, why do you rise?

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr.

         7       President.  I would like to just make a brief

         8       comment on the bill and then maybe ask Senator

         9       Wright to yield to a question.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Leichter on the bill.

        12                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  This is

        13       another bill that received a good airing last

        14       year and some 18 members voted against it.  I

        15       think the main focus of the discussion was its

        16       impact on environmental regulations and

        17       regulations that might be necessary to protect

        18       the health and the welfare of New Yorkers.

        19                      What this bill does, as you can

        20       readily see, is to limit state regulatory

        21       agencies from enacting regulations that are

        22       considered stricter than federal regulations

        23       unless specifically authorized by the











                                                             
2055

         1       Legislature and we pointed out, first of all,

         2       it's a difficult test of what is specifically

         3       authorized.

         4                      We may pass a law that says that

         5       we want our air and our water protected.  Now,

         6       the federal government, as we know, has water

         7       and air standards.  Have we specifically

         8       authorized actions by DEC to protect air and

         9       water in a way that might be appropriate for New

        10       York but it might be considered stricter or

        11       different than the federal standard?  So I think

        12       it raises a lot of problems.

        13                      But the thing that occurred to

        14       me, Senator Wright, is that this doesn't just

        15       apply to DEC or the environment.  This would

        16       apply to the Health Department.  It would apply,

        17       as I read it, to the Banking Department, a

        18       number of state agencies that act in areas where

        19       there is, if you will, concurrent jurisdiction

        20       with the federal government, and I wanted to ask

        21       you some questions on that, because I think this

        22       may raise some additional problems that this

        23       body may want to consider.











                                                             
2056

         1                      Would you be so good as to yield,

         2       Senator?

         3                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Certainly I will

         4       yield to the question.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       yields.

         7                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, am I

         8       correct that this bill applies to any state

         9       agency so that it will also apply to the

        10       Department of Health; it would apply to the

        11       Department of Banking?

        12                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Yes, it does,

        13       Senator.

        14                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  It just

        15       occurred to me, Senator, and I wanted to ask

        16       you.  As you know, we have a dual system of

        17       banking.  We have action that's taken by the

        18       Federal Reserve or action that's taken by the

        19       Comptroller of the Currency, action taken by the

        20       Superintendent of Banking of the State of New

        21       York.  Do you mean by this bill to restrict the

        22       authority of the Superintendent of Banking to

        23       conduct banking examinations, to take actions











                                                             
2057

         1       that he feels are necessary and appropriate to

         2       protect New Yorkers who may deposit monies in

         3       banks or credit unions?  Is that the intent of

         4       this bill?

         5                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  No, Senator.

         6       The intent is not to restrict the Banking

         7       Department from pursuing those issues, if those

         8       issues are authorized by federal statute and New

         9       York State conforms or, in turn, if it does not,

        10       then we specifically authorize the Superintend

        11       ent of Banks or any other commissioner to

        12       achieve federal compliance or to exceed federal

        13       compliance.

        14                      It was not too long ago in this

        15       very chambers that we were adopting banking

        16       legislation, in fact, conforming New York State

        17       statutes to existing federal banking require

        18       ments, and that was a very conscious decision on

        19       our part and, in fact, that's the underlying

        20       theme to this legislation, that the Legislature,

        21       the duly-elected people elected to represent

        22       this state make those decisions in terms of

        23       exceeding national or federal standards.  So











                                                             
2058

         1       nothing precludes us from doing that.

         2                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Well, Senator

         3       Wright, if you would be so good as to continue

         4       to yield.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Wright, do you continue to yield?

         7                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Yes, I will, Mr.

         8       President.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        10       Senator continues to yield, Senator Leichter.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, the

        12       example you gave, in fact, was forced by federal

        13       legislation, but I'm concerned about a situation

        14       that we had some years ago where the federal

        15       government's regulation and its supervision of

        16       thrift institutions was so careless and

        17       negligent that we ended up with one of the

        18       biggest losses that the federal treasury ever

        19       had, whether it was 300 billion or $500 billion,

        20       it was enormous.

        21                      Now, in this state, in large

        22       measure to -- due to, I think much closer

        23       monitoring by the Department of Banking, we











                                                             
2059

         1       didn't have that thrift crisis.  I'm just

         2       concerned that your bill will, in some respects,

         3       limit New York agencies that all of us are very

         4       satisfied with, whether it's the Department of

         5       Banking or Health Department, in the way that it

         6       regulates clinics which may be stricter than

         7       federal action.

         8                      Now, to require the Legislature

         9       now suddenly to authorize actions that these

        10       regulatory bodies have taken that all of us are

        11       very satisfied and happy with and are needed for

        12       the protection of New Yorkers, whether their

        13       health through their Health Department or their

        14       financial health through the Department of

        15       Banking, I think that could result from this

        16       bill.

        17                      Now, I want to say in fairness,

        18       the example I gave about the thrift crisis, of

        19       course, those were federal institutions and you

        20       could make the argument, "Well, those regula

        21       tions wouldn't apply to New York thrifts

        22       anyhow", but under this bill, somebody may well

        23       say, "Well, wait a second.  There are federal











                                                             
2060

         1       rules as to how thrifts are to be regulated, and

         2       you can't have the Department of Banking act to

         3       impose stricter requirements absent some

         4       specific action of the Legislature."

         5                      So that while I know that you aim

         6       this at the environment, I just want you to

         7       think of the consequences that this could have

         8       for state agencies that, as I said, are totally

         9       non-controversial and that all of us agree are

        10       really very necessary for the welfare and the

        11       protection of New Yorkers.

        12                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Senator, I do

        13       not aim this at the environment.  Those are

        14       examples that in prior debates you've chosen to

        15       elucidate but, in fact, I aim it at all

        16       regulations that diminish New York State's

        17       elected officials from making the decisions in

        18       deciding the appropriate standards that New York

        19       State will require.  Nothing in this bill

        20       diminishes our ability to exceed the federal

        21       standard, to have requirements in excess of the

        22       federal government's requirements, regardless of

        23       whether it's in the field of health, banking,











                                                             
2061

         1       environment or any other area that is authorized

         2       to implement regulations.

         3                      What this bill says in its

         4       essence is as an appointed bureaucrat, you do

         5       not have the authority to unilaterally exceed

         6       the federal standard.  If you believe that to be

         7       in the best interests of New York State based on

         8       your professional knowledge, your scientific

         9       background, your experience, et cetera, you

        10       recommend that to the commissioner who, in turn,

        11       recommends that to the Governor or convinces the

        12       Legislature that there is a compelling need for

        13       New York State to exceed those federal minimums,

        14       that that is in New York State's best interests

        15       and you convince the majority of the state

        16       Legislature of that.

        17                      If, in fact, those circumstances

        18       are appropriate and warrant that kind of action,

        19       I don't anticipate that there would be any

        20       difficulty achieving that within the state

        21       Legislature, but the distinction would be that

        22       rather than that appointed bureaucrat, elected

        23       officials would be making the policy for the











                                                             
2062

         1       state of New York.

         2                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr.

         3       President -

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         5       Leichter.

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  -- on the

         7       bill.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Leichter on the bill.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Wright, I just really don't think that this bill

        12       is in the real world, and I'll tell you why.

        13                      First of all, I'm somewhat amused

        14       that you take the federal standard as being one

        15       that is sufficient and should be the guide for

        16       the state of New York because, as I understand

        17       the viewpoint of your party or certainly a lot

        18       of people in your party, Washington is not the

        19       one to make the standards.  Standards are to be

        20       made in the state.  Now, I understand your

        21       answer is "Well, I want the state to make it,

        22       but I want the elected representatives to make

        23       it", but initially, whether or not the elected











                                                             
2063

         1       representatives must act depends upon what the

         2       federal standards are.  I reject that.  I think

         3       that standard ought to be established here in

         4       New York based on our circumstances and not on

         5       laws that are enacted or federal standards that

         6       are enacted with an entire country in mind.  We

         7       have different needs, whether it comes to acid

         8       rain, whether it comes to protection of our

         9       waterways, which is different than waterways on

        10       the West Coast.  We ought to be able to do it

        11       ourselves.

        12                      Now, to meet your argument, Well,

        13       if it requires action in New York State, let the

        14       Legislature do it instead of the regulators,

        15       Senator, we would be in session 365 days a year

        16       and probably 20 hours a day if we had to pass

        17       the myriad of regulations where there is a

        18       variation between the state and the federal.

        19       There are thousands and thousands of regulations

        20       because, indeed, regulations have to be very

        21       precise.  They have to be very extensive.  They

        22       certainly ought to be done under broad

        23       guidelines that are laid out by the Legislature,











                                                             
2064

         1       but your bill would require specific action by

         2       the Legislature, and why I say to you -- and I

         3       say it respectfully -- it's not the real world.

         4       You know, in day -- in a society now where just

         5       in the environment alone, or take the area of

         6       health, or take the area of banking, or take the

         7       area of insurance where, if you ever take a look

         8       at the regulations, there are books and books

         9       and books.  Well, this reflects the fact that

        10       there's many more people.  They interact in

        11       different ways.  It's a different world.  We

        12       can't as a Legislature enact all of those

        13       regulations where they happen to be more

        14       strenuous or stricter than the federal

        15       standards.

        16                      So I respectfully submit to you

        17       that this bill would not work, would impose an

        18       impossible burden on the Legislature.  We don't

        19       have the time.  We don't have the expertise, and

        20       it's based in large measure -- or in the first

        21       instance on the fed's telling us, in effect,

        22       "Yes, you can't act in this area."  I mean, the

        23       fed's aren't saying that, but the fed's have set











                                                             
2065

         1       forth what you have accepted as the standard

         2       which determines whether or not the Legislature

         3       has to authorize our regulatory bodies to act.

         4       I respectfully submit this is just not

         5       workable.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

         7       recognizes Senator Dollinger.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Would Senator

         9       Wright yield to a question?

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Wright, do you yield to a question from Senator

        12       Dollinger?

        13                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  I yield, Mr.

        14       President.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        16       Senator yields.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Senator, are

        18       there any emergency provisions contained in this

        19       bill that would allow the state, on an emergency

        20       basis, to have stricter regulatory requirements

        21       than the federal government?

        22                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  There are no

        23       specific emergency provisions in this











                                                             
2066

         1       legislation, Senator.  The emergency provisions

         2       for emergency rulemaking are contained in the

         3       State Administrative Procedures Act, and we are

         4       not amending any provision of that relative to

         5       the emergency rulemaking.  Therefore, they would

         6       supersede this particular legislation.

         7                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Well, again

         8       through you, Mr. President, I guess I posit the

         9       following emergencies.  Suppose up in Watertown

        10       or Alexandria Bay in a part of the world where

        11       you and I have both spent a part of our time -

        12       you more so than I, but suppose we ran into a

        13       Lyme Disease infestation or rabies outbreak or

        14       an explosion of the population of zebra mussels

        15       or for that matter, the goby and the ruff which

        16       are the two predatory fish that are coming into

        17       Lake Ontario attacking our forage base and

        18       attacking our sports fishing industry, and

        19       suppose it was, I don't know, the 15th of August

        20       and the state Legislature wasn't going to be in

        21       session until January 1st, and the State

        22       Department of Environmental Conservation said we

        23       have to come up with emergency regulations to











                                                             
2067

         1       control the infestation of all of these

         2       predators or these diseases, and yet there were

         3       federal regulations adopted for the entire

         4       nation that did not have the same kind of

         5       effectiveness that DEC wanted.  What happens to

         6       those regulations in this -- if this bill

         7       becomes law?

         8                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Well, first of

         9       all, you proceed with a review of whether or not

        10       there is a federal minimum that warrants being

        11       exceeded, and in this instance, I'm not sure

        12       that the scenario, albeit rather extreme for

        13       purposes of debate -- I don't believe that that

        14       scenario would be into an emergency category

        15       that would warrant the kind of early, quick

        16       response that you're implying.

        17                      Secondly, then the procedures

        18       within the emergency -- the emergency procedures

        19       within the State Administrative Procedures Act

        20       would be applied and you could move ahead, and

        21       if it specifically required exceeding the

        22       federal standard -- which I don't believe would

        23       be warranted in this situation -- then, yes, you











                                                             
2068

         1       would require specific authorization from the

         2       state Legislature to exceed that standard, and

         3       if you truly had that kind of emergency need,

         4       I'm sure that then there would be a legislative

         5       response.

         6                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Okay.  On the

         7       bill, Mr. President.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Dollinger on the bill.

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  I think what

        11       I tried to highlight through my question was the

        12       fact that we could have a rabies outbreak; we

        13       could have a Lyme Disease outbreak up in the

        14       North Country, up in Senator Stafford's area,

        15       Senator Wright's area, where the State

        16       Department of Environmental Conservation could

        17       reasonably sit down and say, "Wait a second.  We

        18       can't wait for the state Legislature.  We can't

        19       wait a week for the state Legislature much less

        20       five months, and we've already scanned all the

        21       federal regulations and we've decided -- we

        22       found that the federal regulations would

        23       prohibit us from aggressively seeking to treat











                                                             
2069

         1       or attack the causes of Lyme Disease or rabies

         2       or fish infestation.  Name the problem."  It

         3       seems to me one of the things that we give the

         4       State Department of Environmental Conservation

         5       is the ability to intervene in those instances

         6       to protect the public good.

         7                      This bill says -- and I agree

         8       with Senator Leichter.  For some reason this

         9       bill seems to move in what I believe is the

        10       absolute contrary direction from everything I've

        11       heard from the Republican Party for the last

        12       decade.  All I've heard is "Give it back to the

        13       states.  The states know best.  Give it back to

        14       the local communities.  The local communities

        15       know best.  Give it back to the lowest possible

        16       level of government."

        17                      This bill suggests somehow that

        18       Washington knows best and frankly, I guess, as a

        19       befuddled Democrat, I can't quite figure it

        20       out.  Does Washington know best or does

        21       Washington know least?  It seems to me all the

        22       rhetoric I've heard suggests that the further

        23       you get away from the people, the least -- or











                                                             
2070

         1       the less confidence you should have in their

         2       decision-making.  This bill works -- almost

         3       turns the phrase of block grant on its head.

         4       It's almost like a block-headed grant because

         5       what it suggests is that Washington somehow

         6       knows better.

         7                      I can just see this:  I think

         8       what we're doing is playing hot potato with the

         9       issue of regulatory environment.  No one likes

        10       intrusive regulations.  I don't like them.  No

        11       one in this room likes them, but there are

        12       certain instances in which we as a state empower

        13       the people in our administrative agencies to

        14       make decisions in the public interest.  They are

        15       close to the people.  They're going to go out to

        16       Watertown.  They're going to come into

        17       Rochester, size up the situation, issue

        18       emergency regulations, figure out how to protect

        19       the public good.  This bill says that somehow,

        20       someone, somewhere in the bowels of an agency in

        21       Washington should make that decision instead.

        22                      With all due respect, Senator, I

        23       can't understand how this pushes the role of











                                                             
2071

         1       states' rights any further.  This seems to take

         2       away states' rights, and it seems to me that

         3       moves in the opposite direction of your party,

         4       many people have talked in the last decade and

         5       frankly, I'm just confused, and I'm going to

         6       vote no in my confusion.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Johnson.

         9                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Will Senator

        10       Wright stand for a question?

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Wright, do you yield to Senator Johnson?

        13                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Yes, I will.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        15       Senator yields.

        16                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Senator Wright,

        17       have you heard about the tripartite structure of

        18       government, Legislative, Executive and

        19       Judicial?

        20                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Yes, Senator, I

        21       vaguely recall that in civics class at one point

        22       in time.

        23                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  And have you











                                                             
2072

         1       heard the arguments today for the Executive

         2       Branch making law from the other side of the

         3       aisle?

         4                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  I believe that's

         5       the interpretation one could make.

         6                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Do you agree

         7       that the Legislature or the Executive should

         8       make law in the state?

         9                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  I believe that

        10       the Executive proposes and the Legislature

        11       disposes.

        12                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  And the

        13       bureaucrats make regulations in accordance with

        14       the laws we pass, is that correct?

        15                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Bureaucrats are

        16       appointed to carry out the wishes of elected

        17       officials.

        18                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Not to make

        19       law.

        20                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  That is correct,

        21       Senator.

        22                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Do you perceive

        23       the other side desires the Legislature -











                                                             
2073

         1       rather, the Executive Branch, the bureaucrats to

         2       make law in instances where it's not authorized

         3       by this Legislature and by law?

         4                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  That is

         5       correct.  That is exactly how I perceive it.

         6                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  You think

         7       that's proper?

         8                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  I don't believe

         9       that's the real world either.

        10                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Thank you,

        11       Senator.

        12                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Thank you,

        13       Senator.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        15       any other Senator wishing -- Senator Dollinger.

        16                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  After

        17       cross-examination by Senator Johnson, may I ask

        18       Senator Wright one other question?

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Wright, do you yield to a question from Senator

        21       Dollinger?

        22                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  I will be glad

        23       to yield to Senator Dollinger, Mr. President.











                                                             
2074

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         2       Senator yields.

         3                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Is it also

         4       true, Senator Wright, that any regulation

         5       created by a bureaucrat that is not consistent

         6       with legislation passed by this Legislature and

         7       signed by the Governor is not proper as a matter

         8       of law because it's outside the scope of the

         9       authority delegated to the bureaucrat?

        10                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Well, Senator,

        11       that's certainly an issue we've had much more

        12       extensive debate on as we've tried to curb just

        13       that issue because we've had several examples in

        14       this state where there are a number of us, and

        15       specifically the Majority of the Legislature

        16       that took a particular direction and established

        17       what they felt was a very clear policy statement

        18       as to the direction of the state of New York

        19       only to have previous commissioners of

        20       Environmental Conservation proceed in a

        21       direction on their own, thereby necessitating

        22       the Legislature to take that commissioner to

        23       court to carry out the will of the Legislature











                                                             
2075

         1       as articulated in law.

         2                      So, unfortunately, there are

         3       circumstances just as you presume they will not

         4       occur that have occurred in the past and, in

         5       fact, we've had to rely on the courts to clarify

         6       the role that the Legislature has just the

         7       authority to state that.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Again through

         9       you, Mr. President, are you referring to

        10       Commissioner Zagata who was taken to court

        11       because he overstepped his bounds in the -

        12                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  No, sir.  I was

        13       referring to Commissioner Jorling in the air

        14       quality standards.

        15                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Okay.  So

        16       maybe we've had that problem both in the prior

        17       administration and in the current one.  Wouldn't

        18       that be a fair statement?

        19                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  No.  I wouldn't

        20       draw that conclusion at all, Senator.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Thank you.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        23       Secretary will read the last section.











                                                             
2076

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         2       act shall take effect on the first day of

         3       October.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         5       roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Wright to explain his vote.

         9                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Thank you, Mr.

        10       President.

        11                      To clarify the perspective of the

        12       Republican philosophy, if I may since I've had

        13       it articulated several times.

        14                      First of all, we, of course,

        15       believe in states' rights, and that's exactly

        16       what this bill does.  It articulates the right

        17       of the state to specifically decide whether or

        18       not the state will increase the standards as

        19       established by the federal government.  Further,

        20       consistent with that philosophy of state rights,

        21       we happen to believe that if the federal

        22       government passes no standard, that would be

        23       beneficial and the state of New York could, in











                                                             
2077

         1       turn, meet its obligations and requirements

         2       quite well.

         3                      However, in those instances where

         4       the federal government does decide to establish

         5       a standard to create a level playing field in

         6       the nation, then that and only then do we

         7       establish that as the minimum in New York

         8       because New York is interested in being

         9       competitive, and then we, again, would exercise

        10       our state rights as to whether or not we would

        11       exceed that standard.

        12                      So I think it's very consistent

        13       with what we're trying to do here and in

        14       Washington and most importantly, it's very

        15       consistent with our belief that we need to

        16       create a competitive environment for New York

        17       State because the real world in New York State,

        18       as pointed out by the health care providers and

        19       others, is overly excessive in its regulatory

        20       environment and, unfortunately, the scenarios

        21       articulated where the Legislature could be in

        22       session 365 days passing regulations, in fact,

        23       has been part of the problem we've had in this











                                                             
2078

         1       state, that many regulations and many people,

         2       including the business community and the health

         3       care providers, are rejecting that and saying

         4       the Legislature should intercede and extend its

         5       legislative prerogatives.

         6                      And on the issue of emergency, I

         7       would point out to my colleague who visits the

         8       Thousands Islands, we, in fact, do have a rabies

         9       emergency and we are not waiting on the state of

        10       New York for regulations.  We're waiting for

        11       adequate funding, and I'm sure you will support

        12       that initiative in the future.

        13                      Thank you.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Wright will be recorded in the affirmative.

        16                      Senator Leichter to explain his

        17       vote.

        18                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yes.  Mr.

        19       President, if Senator Johnson had asked Senator

        20       Wright who vaguely remembered that there are

        21       three branches of government, and had asked him,

        22       "Is there a federal and a state role", I don't

        23       know what the answer would have been, because I











                                                             
2079

         1       still have difficulty understanding the logic of

         2       why, if your concern is about having so-called

         3       unelected bureaucrats make the decision, it's a

         4       right for unelected federal bureaucrats to

         5       decide for New York State.  If you were

         6       consistent, you would say that any action would

         7       re... regulatory or otherwise, must be

         8       specifically authorized by the Legislature, and

         9       I must say that it's rare to find both Senator

        10       Johnson and Senator Wright had this faith in

        11       Washington bureaucrats.  You trust Washington

        12       bureaucrats but you don't trust New York

        13       bureaucrats.

        14                      Of course, the fact of the matter

        15       is that you must give direction to the

        16       bureaucrats but the details, the dotting of the

        17       i's and the crossing of the t's cannot

        18       conceivably be done by the Legislature.  It

        19       doesn't work in the environmental field.  It

        20       doesn't work in the health care field.  It

        21       doesn't work in the banking field, and the

        22       effect of this bill really is to take away

        23       needed protections of New Yorkers in the











                                                             
2080

         1       environment, in the health field, in the finance

         2       field.  We need these regulators.  We have

         3       specific circumstances in New York.  We're also

         4       proud of the fact that New York is not Montana

         5       or Dakota or West Virginia, and so on.  We want

         6       to govern our own affairs, and you can only do

         7       that if you're free to have under rules or

         8       guiding principles laid out by the Legislatures,

         9       have your regulators function.  You would

        10       cripple the regulators, Senator Wright, and you

        11       would place every New Yorker's health and

        12       welfare and well-being at risk.

        13                      I vote in the negative.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Leichter will be recorded in the negative.

        16                      Senator Gold to explain his

        17       vote.

        18                      SENATOR GOLD:  Thank you, Mr.

        19       President.

        20                      I feel obligated to stand here

        21       and defend the honor of a former colleague, who

        22       is somebody that I like very much, a

        23       compassionate man who has been abused all











                                                             
2081

         1       afternoon by the Republican Party, and George

         2       Pataki doesn't deserve that.  He doesn't deserve

         3       that.

         4                      Why you want in an election year

         5       to prove to every one of your constituents that

         6       the Clinton administration has more sense than

         7       the Pataki administration, I don't know, but

         8       it's been an interesting year because I remember

         9       when New York was the leader, and we would pass

        10       laws -- and I was very proud of some of them.

        11       The "Son of Sam" Law was one which I did.  I

        12       know we saw former Senator Weinstein here.  His

        13       father passed, I think, the first crime victims

        14       bill in the nation.  New York led.

        15                      Now in the budget debates that we

        16       have had this year, all I've heard from the

        17       Republican Party is, Well, gee, New York is -

        18       is here and these other states are there, and

        19       we've got to adjust what we do for education to

        20       lower it because everybody else is spending

        21       less, and we've got to give our poor people less

        22       because other states -- and we are finding the

        23       worst areas, I think, to follow what other











                                                             
2082

         1       states do.

         2                      I think that this bill gives away

         3       too much initiative and, Senator Wright, when

         4       you say the bill gives us a right, it's giving

         5       us the right to say, "I'm going to do whatever I

         6       want to do as long as I'm following you", and

         7       that's a strange way of acknowledging a

         8       leadership role.

         9                      I vote in the negative.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Gold will be recorded in the negative.

        12                      The Chair recognizes Senator

        13       Marchi to explain his vote.

        14                      SENATOR MARCHI:  I understand the

        15       Senator's concern and it's genuine, and I

        16       believe that he does make a point, but I'm not

        17       fully convinced.

        18                      The first term I was here, we had

        19       a Democratic governor and two houses Republican.

        20       Later on we had a Republican governor with two

        21       houses Democratic.  Then we -- then we've had

        22       splits, and I'm not always sure that the

        23       Legislature, for noble reasons or less than











                                                             
2083

         1       noble reasons, are ever ready to make

         2       corrections that are enlightened.  So I'm a

         3       little concerned.

         4                      I see here in the memos that we

         5       have the Healthcare Association of New York in

         6       support.  I'm not -- I don't think I know too

         7       much about the Healthcare Association and the

         8       National Federation of Independent Businesses.

         9       The Trial Lawyers are against it.  Again, the

        10       reasons -- this is what -- escape me, but all

        11       these variations and combinations also suggest

        12       that the Legislature may not be in a position to

        13       respond for noble or less than noble reasons,

        14       and for that reason, I -- I'm constrained not to

        15       support this bill.  I should have realized this

        16       earlier, but this is the way I feel, and I can't

        17       support this bill under these circumstances.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Marchi will be recorded in the negative.

        20       Announce the results.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

        22       the negative on Calendar Number 313 are Senators

        23       Abate, Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Gold, Goodman,











                                                             
2084

         1       Kruger, Lachman, LaValle, Leibell, Leichter,

         2       Levy, Marcellino, Marchi, Markowitz, Mendez,

         3       Montgomery, Nanula, Onorato, Oppenheimer,

         4       Paterson, Santiago, Seabrook, Smith, Stachowski

         5       and Stavisky.  Ayes 33, nays 26.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         7       is passed.

         8                      The Chair recognizes Senator

         9       Goodman.

        10                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr. President,

        11       may I ask to be recorded in the negative on

        12       Calendars 311, -12 and -13, please.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

        14       objection.

        15                      (There was no response.)

        16                      Hearing no objection, Senator

        17       Goodman will be recorded in the negative on

        18       Calendar Number 311, 312 -- 313 you are recorded

        19       in the last vote, Senator Goodman, in the

        20       negative, yes.

        21                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Thank you, Mr.

        22       President.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator











                                                             
2085

         1       Montgomery, why do you rise?

         2                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Yes, Mr.

         3       President.  I would like unanimous consent to be

         4       recorded in the negative on Calendar 312.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

         6       objection.

         7                      (There was no response.)

         8                      Hearing no objection, Senator

         9       Montgomery will be recorded in the negative on

        10       Calendar Number 312.

        11                      Senator Oppenheimer.

        12                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  I would

        13       like to follow that great leader, Senator

        14       Goodman, and also be recorded in the negative on

        15       the three that he mentioned, -11, -12 and -13.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       Oppenheimer, you are currently recorded in the

        18       negative on Calendar Number 313 which just

        19       passed this house.

        20                      Without objection.

        21                      (There was no response.)

        22                      Hearing no objection, you will be

        23       recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 311











                                                             
2086

         1       and 312.

         2                      The Secretary will continue to

         3       call the controversial calendar.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       341, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 4643,

         6       an act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation

         7       to the premium or compensation for giving bail

         8       bond.

         9                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Explanation.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       DeFrancisco, an explanation has been asked for

        12       by the Acting Minority Leader, Senator

        13       Stachowski.

        14                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  What this

        15       bill does is increase the cost of a bail bond

        16       from the current five percent for bonds up to

        17       $1,000 to ten percent for bonds up to $3,000 and

        18       then increasing the increments thereafter,

        19       basically providing a higher cost to individuals

        20       using bail bonds than presently exist.

        21                      Right now, if one is incarcerated

        22       under -- and the bond that must be posted is

        23       $1,000, a bail bondsman's fee is $50.  I think











                                                             
2087

         1       these fees that were set in the '70s aren't even

         2       substantial enough to do the paperwork that has

         3       to be prepared in order to get the individual

         4       released from jail, and all I'm doing is

         5       basically conforming our laws with what more

         6       than 40 states have done since 1970 and place

         7       the bail bonds at a reasonable figure so that we

         8       will still have a bail bonds business in the

         9       state of New York available for defendants.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        11       recognizes Senator Abate.

        12                      SENATOR ABATE:  Yes, Mr.

        13       President.  Would Senator DeFrancisco yield to a

        14       question?

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       DeFrancisco, do you yield?

        17                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Yes.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        19       Senator yields.

        20                      SENATOR ABATE:  Senator, I

        21       understand your good intentions in terms of

        22       requiring that bail bondsmen get a good wage for

        23       their work, but has your office -- or are you











                                                             
2088

         1       aware of any study, what would be the impact of

         2       raising the premiums in terms of the numbers of

         3       people who could not afford to make bond and,

         4       therefore, would have to remain in our local

         5       jails?  What would be the impact?

         6                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Well, in

         7       most cases -- I didn't do any studies, nor do I

         8       know of any studies to answer your question

         9       directly, but usually when bail is set, it's set

        10       in either a $1,000 bond or cash, for example.

        11       Obviously, it's easier for an individual to come

        12       up with a bond premium, in most cases, if you're

        13       indigent or poor, than it is to come up with

        14       $1,000 cash, but on the other hand, we're find

        15       ing increasingly, at least in my jurisdiction,

        16       that $50 isn't enough to compensate a bondsman

        17       for the risk that they're taking in posting a

        18       bond for an individual.  So I think the system

        19       that we have right now is ultimately headed for

        20       a system where there are no bondsmen at these

        21       lower bonds that are being required of

        22       defendants, and it's going to be an impediment

        23       to those in lower income situations and they'll











                                                             
2089

         1       have to find cash sources as opposed to a bond.

         2                      Secondly, there are other means

         3       to get released from jail, including release on

         4       your own recognizance or released through what

         5       we have in Onondaga County, a probation program

         6       where there's supervision by the Probation

         7       Department for individuals who do not have funds

         8       and are a good risk.  So there are other options

         9       and secondly, it's easier to post a bond cash

        10       wise than it is to put the entire amount of cash

        11       forward.  So I think it will help someone in the

        12       category you're concerned about.

        13                      SENATOR ABATE:  Would the Senator

        14       yield to another question?

        15                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Yes.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        17       Senator continues to yield.

        18                      SENATOR ABATE:  I can only speak

        19       of the New York City jails, but I don't know

        20       whether you're aware that there are huge numbers

        21       of people in jail because they cannot make $500

        22       bail or less, and that means they cannot come up

        23       with the 500 or $250 cash, nor do they have











                                                             
2090

         1       sufficient dollars to pay the premium and get a

         2       bond, and so these are situations where the

         3       judge has felt these aren't individuals at

         4       serious danger, the risk level is limited and

         5       they've set a very low cash alternative or low

         6       bond.  Would you -- if you learned that there

         7       would be -- that number would be even more

         8       increased by this, would you take another look

         9       in this legislation?

        10                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Sure, I

        11       would take another look, but if we're not making

        12       bonds available to those people who can't raise

        13       500 or $1,000 cash, I think we're providing them

        14       a disservice.  If -

        15                      SENATOR ABATE:  But wouldn't this

        16       exacerbate that situation or make it more

        17       expensive for indigent defendants, people

        18       accused of crimes -- we're still talking about

        19       people in detention.  If you increase that

        20       premium, you may now have some people who can

        21       make that $500 bond and now -- but under this

        22       legislation would have to stay in jail, and what

        23       I'm suggesting is -- this is a good intentioned











                                                             
2091

         1       bill.  I might be able to support it, but I

         2       would need to know the answer to the question:

         3       What would the impact of this change in

         4       legislation have on sheriffs and local jails

         5       throughout the state?

         6                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  I really

         7       can't answer that question other than to say

         8       that my experience is with my jurisdiction and

         9       we're finding bondsmen that don't want to go

        10       through the bother of $1,000 bond, $2,000 bond

        11       for a $500 fee, take a risk, plus do the paper

        12       work, and I'm more concerned about the bonds

        13       system drying up so more people have to raise

        14       cash bail, and if I found that you were correct,

        15       if you have some empirical data, I would be more

        16       than happy to revisit the bill, but I think the

        17       bill will do the thing you're most concerned

        18       about.

        19                      Secondly, I would recommend to

        20       your jurisdiction, I would be more than happy to

        21       get our Probation Department in contact with

        22       yours.  We do have an excellent probation

        23       pretrial release program for individuals in











                                                             
2092

         1       those situations, because it seems senseless for

         2       a $500 cash bail to put somebody in jail and not

         3       be able to be released, and that's how we deal

         4       with it in our county.

         5                      SENATOR ABATE:  Yes.  On the

         6       bill.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Abate on the bill.

         9                      SENATOR ABATE:  The -- and I

        10       thank the Senator for the offer.  I'm sure the

        11       Probation Department in New York City would like

        12       to hear from the Syracuse Probation Department

        13       and, yes, they've had programs such as that, but

        14       they deal with defendants on the margins.

        15       There's still a huge number of indigent

        16       defendants in jail because they cannot make low

        17       level bonds or cash alternatives.

        18                      I cannot support this bill at

        19       this time until I understand what the impact of

        20       this legislation would have on the local jails.

        21       This is a complaint that I have over and over

        22       again about legislation that we pass around

        23       criminal justice.  It sounds good.  It certainly











                                                             
2093

         1       makes sense that we want to pay bail bondsmen an

         2       adequate wage.  We want to keep them in

         3       business.  We want to be able to make bonds

         4       available to more people when it's appropriate.

         5       My concern is that the intent of this

         6       legislation will not necessarily have that

         7       effect and that the reverse effect may be fewer

         8       people will be able to utilize bail bondsmen.

         9                      My understanding is because there

        10       are increasing numbers of people being arrested

        11       while the bail bonds person isn't making a lot

        12       of money when they negotiate every bond, they

        13       have a greater population.  We're seeing more

        14       and greater numbers of people in our jails.  So

        15       over the years while their wage hasn't

        16       increased, they have a larger population upon

        17       which to draw from.  So I would like to look at

        18       those statistics to see if, in fact, this is the

        19       way to ensure that they stay in business and get

        20       an adequate wage.  I believe without this

        21       independent study, without this independent

        22       documentation, we may be doing more harm than

        23       good.  So I hope if this does rear its head











                                                             
2094

         1       another year in the interim, Senator, we could

         2       get some more data and see if this is the right

         3       solution.

         4                      In the meantime, I have to vote

         5       no.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

         7       recognizes Senator Gold.

         8                      SENATOR GOLD:  First of all, I

         9       would like to thank Senator Abate for asking

        10       some questions because I really didn't focus on

        11       this, but if Senator DeFrancisco would yield to

        12       a question -

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator,

        14       do you yield?  The Senator yields.

        15                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator, I have

        16       been reading the -- the sponsor's memo, but I

        17       was wondering, are there any other memos from

        18       the industry or anything?

        19                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  No.  I

        20       haven't received any memos.

        21                      SENATOR GOLD:  And I'll tell you

        22       why, Senator, if you would yield for a

        23       question.  I think that the concern of the bill











                                                             
2095

         1       is an important concern, and while I don't do so

         2       much of it anymore, there was a time when I was

         3       doing a lot of criminal work and I was in the

         4       criminal courts, and I know that there were many

         5       changes over the years, and in the federal

         6       courts, for example, they have done a lot of

         7       things which have probably hurt the bail bond

         8       business more than the cost of bail bonds,

         9       having people sign themselves out, having

        10       spouses sign over houses as security, and they

        11       do all kinds of things like that -- God bless

        12       you -- and I'm wondering -- I don't want to hurt

        13       any business.  I think the bail bonds people are

        14       -- it's a legitimate business, but perhaps as

        15       Senator Abate has suggested, we could maybe even

        16       lay over the bill a day.  I don't know what your

        17       scheduling is, and I respect whatever answer you

        18       give, but I would feel a lot more comfortable if

        19       we had some more information on it, because if

        20       there is a problem -- I'm not adverse to helping

        21       people.  We've had bills in the past, for

        22       example, helping pawn brokers and people said,

        23       "Oh, pawn brokers, you don't want to go near











                                                             
2096

         1       those people", and we found out that there was

         2       some legitimate concern to keep them in business

         3       so that they would be helping poor people, and I

         4       and others did vote for those bills, and I have

         5       no problem voting for a bail bond bill, if

         6       that's what's really necessary, but I would like

         7       to see it in a bigger and a broader picture, and

         8       it's only a suggestion, Senator.  If you're

         9       comfortable and you move it, I would respect

        10       you, but I would personally like to see some

        11       more.

        12                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  I

        13       understand.  Last year this bill passed 57 to 0

        14       with no bill memos in the last 12 months.  You

        15       know, if there was a ground swell of activity

        16       shortly before this bill hit the floor, I would

        17       say there would be a reason to go forward and

        18       hold it for awhile, but I really don't see the

        19       reason since it's been out there for so long and

        20       there's been no memos to date; I don't see why

        21       there would be some that would all of a sudden

        22       pop up.  So I would prefer not to hold it at

        23       this time.











                                                             
2097

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         2       Secretary will read the last section.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         4       act shall take effect immediately.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         6       roll.

         7                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

         9       the results when tabulated.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

        11       the negative on Calendar Number 341 are Senators

        12       Abate, Espada, Gold and Leichter.  Ayes 55, nays

        13       4.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        15       is passed.

        16                      Senator Skelos, that completes

        17       the controversial calendar.

        18                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        19       could we please return to reports of standing

        20       committees.  I believe there's a report of the

        21       Finance Committee at the desk.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There is,

        23       Senator Skelos.  We'll return to reports of











                                                             
2098

         1       standing committees.

         2                      I'll ask the Secretary to read

         3       the report of the Finance Committee.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

         5       from the Committee on Finance, offers the

         6       following nomination:  Banking member of the

         7       State Banking Board:  Charles J. Hamm of

         8       Bronxville.

         9                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        10       move the nomination.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        12       question is on the nomination of Charles J. Hamm

        13       to become a member of the New York State Banking

        14       Board.  All those in favor signify by saying

        15       aye.

        16                      (Response of "Aye".)

        17                      Opposed, nay.

        18                      (There was no response.)

        19                      The nominee is confirmed.

        20                      Senator Levy, why do you rise?

        21                      SENATOR LEVY:  Mr. President, I

        22       would like unanimous consent to be recorded in

        23       the negative on Calendar Number 311.











                                                             
2099

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

         2       objection.

         3                      (There was no response.)

         4                      Hearing no objection, Senator

         5       Levy will be recorded in the negative on

         6       Calendar Number 311.

         7                      We're still on reports of

         8       standing committees, the report of the Finance

         9       Committee.  The Secretary will continue to

        10       read.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Member of the

        12       State Athletic Commission:  Melville Southard,

        13       Esq. of Manhasset.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        15       recognizes Senator Tully on the nomination.

        16                      SENATOR TULLY:  Thank you, Mr.

        17       President.

        18                      My colleagues, I rise to ask your

        19       support of the nomination of Melville Southard

        20       as a member of the State Athletic Commission.

        21                      Mr. Southard is a constituent of

        22       mine.  He's married with three children.  He's a

        23       practicing attorney and a community activist.











                                                             
2100

         1       He has been vice-president and general counsel

         2       to the New York Yankees and is head of the

         3       sports law department of several prominent law

         4       firms, has also represented the Houston Astros

         5       and the Cincinnati Reds.  He's affiliated with

         6       the Nassau County Sports Commission, and he's a

         7       director of the New York City Sports Development

         8       Corporation.

         9                      I applaud the Governor's

        10       nomination of this extremely qualified nominee

        11       and urge my colleagues to join me in confirming

        12       him, and he is up in the gallery, Mr. President.

        13                      Thank you.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        15       any other Senator wishing to speak on the

        16       nomination?

        17                      (There was no response.)

        18                      Hearing none, the question is on

        19       the nomination of Melville Southard, Esq., to

        20       become a member of the State Athletic

        21       Commission.  All those in favor signify by

        22       saying aye.

        23                      (Response of "Aye".)











                                                             
2101

         1                      Opposed, nay.

         2                      (There was no response.)

         3                      The nominee, Melville Southard,

         4       Esq., is confirmed.  Mr. Southard, we appreciate

         5       your being here.  Congratulations on your new

         6       job.  We appreciate the effort that you're going

         7       to put forth on behalf of all of us here.  Thank

         8       you for being here.

         9                      (Applause)

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        11       Secretary will continue to read.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Member of the

        13       Allegany State Park, Recreation and Historic

        14       Preservation Committee:  Dalton J. Burgett of

        15       Bemus Point.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move the

        17       nomination.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        19       question is on the nomination of Dalton Burgett

        20       to become a member of the Allegany State Park,

        21       Recreation and Historic Preservation Committee.

        22       All those in favor signify by saying aye.

        23                      (Response of "Aye".)











                                                             
2102

         1                      Opposed, nay.

         2                      (There was no response.)

         3                      The nominee is confirmed.

         4                      The Secretary will continue to

         5       read.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Member of the

         7       Port of Oswego Authority, Robert L. Raby of

         8       Oswego.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        10       recognizes Senator Wright on the nomination.

        11                      SENATOR WRIGHT:  Thank you, Mr.

        12       President.

        13                      I would move this nomination and

        14       request adoption by my colleagues.  Mr. Raby is

        15       a leader in the business community in the Oswego

        16       area and, in turn, will be a valuable addition

        17       to the Port of Oswego Authority as to continue

        18       to move ahead with economic development

        19       initiatives in the community contingent upon the

        20       Port.  I encourage all my members to seek their

        21       support.

        22                      Thank you.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The











                                                             
2103

         1       question is on the nomination of Robert L. Raby

         2       to become a member of the Oswego Authority.  All

         3       those in favor signify by saying aye.

         4                      (Response of "Aye".)

         5                      Opposed, nay.

         6                      (There was no response.)

         7                      The nominee is confirmed.

         8                      The Secretary will continue to

         9       read the nominations.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Member of the

        11       Empire State Plaza Art Commission:  Amy Solomon

        12       of Delmar.

        13                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move the

        14       nomination.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        16       question is on the nomination of Amy Solomon to

        17       become a member of the Empire State Plaza Art

        18       Commission.  All those in favor signify by

        19       saying aye.

        20                      (Response of "Aye".)

        21                      Opposed, nay.

        22                      (There was no response.)

        23                      The nominee is confirmed.











                                                             
2104

         1                      The Secretary will continue to

         2       read.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Member of the

         4       Small Business Advisory Board:  Harold H. Connor

         5       of East Aurora.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

         7       -- Senate -- Senator Volker.

         8                      SENATOR VOLKER:  That's me.  Mr.

         9       President, I would like to move the nomination

        10       of Harold H. Connor who is a constituent of mine

        11       and a friend who has been on the -- a member of

        12       the Small Business Advisory Board.  This is a

        13       reappointment.  I would like to ask for his

        14       reconfirmation.

        15                      Thank you.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        17       question is on the nomination of Harold H.

        18       Connor to become a member of the Small Business

        19       Advisory Board.  All those in favor signify by

        20       saying aye.

        21                      (Response of "Aye".)

        22                      Opposed, nay.

        23                      (There was no response.)











                                                             
2105

         1                      The nominee is confirmed.

         2                      The Secretary will continue to

         3       read.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Member of the

         5       Small Business Advisory Board:  Craig H. Van

         6       Cott of Norwich.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         8       question is on the nomination of Craig H. Van

         9       Cott to become a member of the Small Business

        10       Advisory Board.  All those in favor signify by

        11       saying aye.

        12                      (Response of "Aye".)

        13                      Opposed, nay.

        14                      (There was no response.)

        15                      The nominee is confirmed.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        17       at this time if we could take up Calendar Number

        18       426, Senate 5756-A, which was reported from the

        19       Finance Committee.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        21       Secretary will read.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       426, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 5756-A, an











                                                             
2106

         1       act to amend the Social Services Law, in

         2       relation to services of emergency physicians

         3       under the Medical Assistance Program.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         5       Secretary will read the last section.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         7       act shall take effect immediately.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         9       roll.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 59.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        13       is passed.

        14                      Senator Skelos.

        15                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        16       is there any housekeeping at the desk?

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Skelos, we have three committee reports we would

        19       like to have read in.

        20                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Please have them

        21       read.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        23       Secretary will read.











                                                             
2107

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Rath,

         2       from the Committee on Local Government,

         3       reports:

         4                      Senate Print 509, by Senator

         5       Cook, an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law,

         6       in relation to the imposition of charges;

         7                      1372, by Senator LaValle, an act

         8       to amend the Town Law, in relation to exemption

         9       from the spending limits of fire districts;

        10                      1465-B, by Senator Lack, an act

        11       in relation to the real property tax assessed by

        12       the town of Smithtown;

        13                      1893-A, by Senator Volker, an act

        14       to amend the County Law, in relation to the

        15       financial responsibility of the defendant;

        16                      3160, by Senator Cook, an act to

        17       amend the County Law, the Highway Law and the

        18       Town Law, in relation to the alternative

        19       classification;

        20                      3553, by the Senate Committee on

        21       Rules, an act in relation to permitting the

        22       establishment of the town of Champlain sewer

        23       benefit;











                                                             
2108

         1                      3735, by Senator LaValle, an act

         2       to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation

         3       to creating the town of Southampton Industrial

         4       Development Agency;

         5                      3736, by Senator LaValle, an act

         6       to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation

         7       to creating the town of Southampton Community

         8       Development Agency;

         9                      5224, by Senator Seward, an act

        10       to amend of General Municipal Law, in relation

        11       to authorizing municipal corporations;

        12                      5822, by Senator Farley, an act

        13       to legalize, validate, ratify and confirm

        14       certain proceedings;

        15                      5845, by Senator Stafford, an act

        16       to amend the Town Law, in relation to publicly

        17       fund in the town of Wilmington;

        18                      5900, by Senator Leibell, an act

        19       to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation

        20       to allowing municipalities;

        21                      5903-A, by Senator Johnson, an

        22       act to amend the Local Finance Law, in relation

        23       to temporary alternative methods;











                                                             
2109

         1                      5966, by Senator Cook, an act to

         2       legalize, validate, ratify and confirm the acts

         3       of the village of the board of trustees;

         4                      6057, by Senator Larkin, an act

         5       to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation

         6       to school districts;

         7                      6145, by Senator Saland, an act

         8       to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation

         9       to authorizing mortgage investing institutions.

        10                      Senator Levy, from the Committee

        11       on Transportation reports:

        12                      Senate Print 359, by Senator

        13       Levy, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic

        14       Law, in relation to criminal history checks;

        15                      911, Senator Goodman, an act to

        16       amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation

        17       to allowing parking violation bureaus;

        18                      2083, by Senator Farley, an act

        19       to amend the Canal Law and the Public

        20       Authorities Law, in relation to the definition

        21       of the New York State Canal System;

        22                      4344, by Senator Maltese, an act

        23       to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, the











                                                             
2110

         1       Criminal Procedure Law and the Tax Law, in

         2       relation to penalties;

         3                      4957, by Senator Padavan, an act

         4       to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation

         5       to collection of tolls;

         6                      5342-B, by Senator Levy, an act

         7       to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in

         8       relation to establishing an advisory committee.

         9                      Senator Nozzolio, from the

        10       Committee on Crime Victims, Crime and Correction

        11       reports:

        12                      Senate Print 5965-B, by Senator

        13       Nozzolio, an act to amend the Correction Law, in

        14       relation to the custody and supervision of

        15       persons;

        16                      6067, by Senator Maziarz, an act

        17       to amend the Correction Law, in relation to the

        18       definition of county;

        19                      And 6174, by Senator Nozzolio, an

        20       act to amend Chapter 887 of the Laws of 1983.

        21                      All bills ordered directly for

        22       third reading.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without











                                                             
2111

         1       objection, all bills are ordered directly to

         2       third reading.

         3                      The Chair recognizes Senator

         4       Skelos.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Is there any

         6       other housekeeping?

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  No.  Our

         8       housekeeping has been taken care of, Senator.

         9                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Before we

        10       adjourn, I just wanted to congratulate Senator

        11       Gold's new counsel, Judy, for keeping him under

        12       control today and the fact that we'll be able to

        13       leave at 5:00 and have a reasonable dinner

        14       rather than 7:00 or 8:00, which is the normal

        15       situation.  We thank you, Judy.

        16                      Would you please recognize

        17       Senator Mendez.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        19       recognizes Senator Mendez.

        20                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Thank you, Mr.

        21       President.

        22                      There is going to be an immediate

        23       meeting of the Minority Conference in Room 314.











                                                             
2112

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

         2       will be an immediate meeting of the Minority

         3       Conference in the Minority Conference Room, Room

         4       314.  Immediate meeting of the Minority in the

         5       Minority Conference Room, Room 314.

         6                      Senator Skelos.

         7                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         8       there being no further business, I move we

         9       adjourn until Wednesday, March 13th, 1996 at

        10       11:00 a.m. sharp.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

        12       objection, the Senate stands adjourned until

        13       tomorrow, March 13th at 11:00 a.m.

        14                      (Whereupon, at 4:59 p.m., the

        15       Senate adjourned.)

        16

        17

        18

        19

        20

        21

        22

        23