Regular Session - March 18, 1996
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6 ALBANY, NEW YORK
7 March 18, 1996
8 3:05 p.m.
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12 REGULAR SESSION
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16 SENATOR CARL L. MARCELLINO, ACTING PRESIDENT
17 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, SECRETARY
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 The Senate will come to order. I ask that
4 everyone present please rise and repeat with me
5 the Pledge of Allegiance; members in the
6 balcony, too.
7 (The assemblage repeated the
8 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
10 In the absence of clergy, may we bow our heads
11 for a moment of silence, please.
12 (A moment of silence was
13 observed.)
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
15 We'll have the reading of the Journal.
16 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
17 Sunday, March 17, the Senate met pursuant to
18 adjournment. Senator Hoblock in the chair
19 upon designation of the Temporary President.
20 The Journal of Saturday, March 16, was read and
21 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
23 Without objection, the Journal stands approved
2178
1 as read.
2 We have presentation of
3 petitions.
4 Messages from the Assembly.
5 Messages from the Governor.
6 Reports of standing
7 committees.
8 Reports of select committees.
9 Communications and reports
10 from state officers.
11 Motions and resolutions.
12 Senator Bruno.
13 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
14 we have a resolution commemorating Good Joes
15 Day; we'd like to have it read up -- handed up
16 and read, and we'll shortly follow that with a
17 "Manny" -
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
19 The Secretary will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
21 Bruno, Legislative Resolution commemorating
22 Good Joes Day 1996.
23 Whereas, St. Joseph is
2179
1 everyone's patron saint and not just the patron
2 saint of those who are fortunate to bear his
3 name; and
4 Whereas, the New York State
5 legislature is appreciative of the vital
6 contributions of those good members known as
7 "Joseph"; and
8 Whereas, the Society of Good
9 Joes is celebrating its 38th year in memory of
10 the late Joseph Addonizio and its members have
11 banded together under a common name in the
12 spirit of camaraderie and good fellowship; and
13 Whereas, tradition holds that
14 Saint Joseph is the patron saint of the working
15 person, of all of those who labor with the
16 dignity that only true humility imparts; and
17 Whereas, on St. Joseph's Day
18 in March, the swallows return to Capistrano,
19 heralding the conclusion of a long, cold winter
20 and the advent of a new spring; now, therefore,
21 be it
22 Resolved, that this legislative
23 body pause in its deliberations and recognize
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1 this great day, Tuesday, March 19, 1996, in
2 commemoration and deliberation of all Good Joes
3 in the state of New York, to be celebrated on
4 Monday, March 18, 1996, in honor of all Good
5 Joes of this Empire State; and be it further
6 Resolved that a copy of this
7 resolution, suitably engrossed, by transmitted
8 to Mrs. Rose Addonizio, New Rochelle, New York.
9 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
10 can we at this time move the adoption of the
11 resolution -
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
13 Yes, Senator. The question is on the
14 resolution.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: -- and open it
16 up to anyone else in the chamber, whether
17 they're named "Joe" or not? They might be
18 named Manny, anything, Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
20 The resolution will be opened up for all who
21 wish to be on it; anyone who -- wishing not to
22 be, please inform the desk.
23 The question is on the
2181
1 resolution. All in favor, signify by saying
2 aye.
3 (Response of "Aye".)
4 Opposed, nay.
5 (There was no response.)
6 The resolution is adopted.
7 Senator Nozzolio.
8 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr.
9 President, I move the following bills be
10 discharged from their respective committees and
11 be recommitted with instructions to strike the
12 enacting clause: Senate Number 2720.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 The bill will be recommitted with the enacting
15 clause struck.
16 Senator Saland.
17 SENATOR SALAND: Mr.
18 President, on page 31, I offer the following
19 amendments to Calendar 392, Senate 3596.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
21 The amendments are received.
22 SENATOR SALAND: Excuse me?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2182
1 The amendments will be received.
2 SENATOR SALAND: Okay, and Mr.
3 President, also on page 31, Calendar Number
4 447, I move amendments on that bill, Senate
5 5104; and I would like to remove a star from
6 Calendar 392, Senate 3596.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
8 The amendments have been received and the star
9 is removed.
10 Senator Kuhl.
11 SENATOR KUHL: Yes,
12 Mr. President. On page number 13, Calendar
13 Number 352, my Senate Bill 1544, would you
14 place a sponsor's star on that bill, please?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
16 There will be a sponsor's star placed on bill
17 1544.
18 SENATOR KUHL: Also,
19 Mr. President, on behalf of Senator Libous, on
20 page 17, I offer up the following amendments to
21 Calendar Number 397, Senate Print 4003, and ask
22 that said bill retain its place on the Third
23 Reading Calendar.
2183
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2 The amendments are received and the bill will
3 retain its place on the calendar.
4 SENATOR KUHL: Also,
5 Mr. President, on page 23, on behalf of Senator
6 Maltese, Calendar Number 454, I offer up the
7 following amendments to that bill, Senate Print
8 441, and ask that said bill retain its place on
9 the Third Reading Calendar.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
11 The amendments are received and the bill will
12 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
13 SENATOR KUHL: Lastly, Mr.
14 President, on behalf of Senator Maltese, on page
15 27, I offer up the following amendments to
16 Calendar Number 483, Senate Print 4344, and ask
17 that said bill retain its place on the Third
18 Reading Calendar.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
20 The amendments are received, and the bill will
21 retain its place.
22 Senator Volker.
23 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr.
2184
1 President, I have two motions here. First of
2 all, on behalf of Senator Sears, I move that
3 the following bills be discharged from their
4 respective committees and be recommitted with
5 instructions to strike the enacting clause:
6 Senate Print 1666 and Senate Print 5532.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
8 The bills will be recommitted and the enacting
9 clause will be struck.
10 SENATOR VOLKER: Thank you.
11 On behalf of myself, Mr.
12 President, I move that the following bill be
13 discharged from its respective committee and be
14 recommitted with instructions to strike the
15 enacting clause: My bill, Senate Print 6087.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
17 It will be done.
18 Senator Bruno, we have a
19 substitution up here at the desk and we would
20 like to make it at this time.
21 SENATOR BRUNO: Would you make
22 the substitution, Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2185
1 Thank you.
2 Secretary will read.
3 THE SECRETARY: On page 28,
4 Senator Volker moves to discharge from the
5 Committee on Elections, Assembly Bill No. 8383
6 and substitute it for the identical Senate
7 bill, Calendar 500.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
9 The substitution is ordered.
10 Senator Bruno.
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
12 can we at this time take up the non
13 controversial calendar?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
15 Yes, we can, Senator Bruno.
16 Will the Secretary read the
17 non-controversial calendar, and may we have
18 order in the house, please? Thank you.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 159, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 3009A, an
21 act directing the city of New York to refund to
22 certain not-for-profit organizations the amount
23 of real property taxes erroneously paid to such
2186
1 city.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 Read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
5 This act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
7 Call the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the
9 roll.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
12 The bill is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 277, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print -
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it
16 aside.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
18 Can we lay the bill aside?
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 290, by member of the Assembly Tokasz, Assembly
21 Print 5085, act to amend the Town Law, in
22 relation to providing for absentee ballots for
23 fire district elections.
2187
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2 Read the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
4 This act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
6 Call the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the
8 roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
11 The bill is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 302, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 2670, an act
14 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law in
15 relation to leaving the scene of injury to
16 certain animals without reporting.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
18 Read the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
20 This act shall take effect on the 120th day.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
22 Call the roll.
23 (The Secretary called the
2188
1 roll.)
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
4 The bill is passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 306, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4578 -
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
8 Lay the bill aside.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 308, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 6038, an act
11 to amend the Railroad Law, in relation to police
12 officers of a commuter railroad police force
13 under the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan
14 Transportation Authority.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside
16 for the day.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
18 Lay the bill aside. Lay the bill aside for the
19 day.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 315, by Senator Sears, Senate Print 1189, an
22 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
23 including the use of firearm in the commission
2189
1 of a class A felony.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 Call the roll -- I'm sorry. Read the last
4 section, then call the roll.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
6 This act shall take effect on the first day of
7 November.
8 (The Secretary called the
9 roll.)
10 Ayes 51.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
12 The bill is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 339, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 2716A, an
15 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
16 the maximum automobile insurance discount for
17 anti-theft devices.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
19 Read the last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
21 This act shall take effect on the first day of
22 January.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2190
1 Call the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the
3 roll.)
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
6 The bill is passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 355, by -
9 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside
10 for the day.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
12 Lay the bill aside for the day, please.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 357, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4515, an
15 act to amend the Workers' Compensation Law, in
16 relation to teaching activities of board
17 members.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
19 Read the last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
21 This act shall take effect immediately.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
23 Call the roll.
2191
1 (The Secretary called the
2 roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
5 The bill is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 376, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 3537A,
8 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
9 relation to traffic regulations at parking
10 areas and driveways of schools.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
12 Read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
14 This act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
16 Call the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the
18 roll.)
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
21 The bill is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 378, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 314A, an
2192
1 act to amend the Social Services Law, in
2 relation to providing certain applicants and
3 recipients of public assistance.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
5 Read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3.
7 This act shall take effect in 180 days.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
9 Call the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the
11 roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 53.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 The bill is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 385, by Senator Padavan -
17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Lay it aside
18 for amendment.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
20 The bill will be laid aside for amendment at
21 the request of the sponsor.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 403, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 211, an
2193
1 act authorizing the United States Military to
2 recruit on the campuses of the State University
3 of New York and other such state college
4 campuses.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
7 Lay the bill aside.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 413, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 6084, an
10 act to amend Chapter 890 of the Laws of 1982
11 relating to the establishment of certain water
12 charges for hospitals and charities.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Read the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
16 This act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
18 Call the roll.
19 (The Secretary called the
20 roll.)
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
23 The bill is passed.
2194
1 Senator Skelos, that completes
2 the non-controversial calendar.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Please take
4 up the controversial calendar at this time.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
6 Secretary will read.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 277, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 546B an
9 act to amend the Judiciary Law and the
10 Education Law, in relation to creating the 13th
11 judicial district consisting of the county of
12 Richmond.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Read the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 7.
16 This act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
18 Call the roll.
19 (The Secretary called the
20 roll.)
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
22 Senator Leichter.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
2195
1 President, on the bill, we have debated this
2 bill before, which creates a separate judicial
3 district for the county of Richmond.
4 I think as I pointed out
5 before, this bill does not have the approval of
6 the Office of Court Administration, and I just
7 want to point out the people voted against it
8 in other years, just to remind them. When this
9 bill came before us last year, it was opposed
10 by Senators Connor, Dollinger, Galiber, Gold,
11 Kruger, Leichter, Montgomery, Paterson,
12 Santiago, Smith and Solomon.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Senator Marchi.
15 SENATOR MARCHI: Are we on a
16 roll call?
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
18 I believe Senator Leichter was explaining his
19 vote.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
21 Yes, that was my understanding.
22 SENATOR MARCHI: I'm
23 explaining my vote Mr. President -
2196
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2 Senator Marchi, to explain his vote.
3 SENATOR MARCHI: -- to give -
4 since the opposition are all quality Senators,
5 I'm explaining my vote to give them an
6 opportunity to support this bill.
7 There are 400,000 residents of
8 the county of Richmond. We have four that have
9 come out of Richmond nominated in convention.
10 The delegates are all Kings County, except for
11 a handful on a proportionate basis.
12 Well, this certainly gives them
13 a right to at least their commensurate number
14 of judges, but they have ten times as many
15 judges. They don't have ten times the
16 population, but they have ten times as many
17 judges. What kind of fairness is that? It's
18 the reason we want secession. It wouldn't
19 change this equation, but it's that single
20 mindedness that we're not entitled to at least
21 something roughly approximating our
22 population.
23 This is degrading to the
2197
1 democratic system, small "d" -- and even big "D"
2 and big "R." I cannot understand anything as
3 vulgar, abusive, than the present practice
4 where -- and I tell you, in my county, there is
5 no political difference on this, we only want
6 fairness, whether they're Democrats or
7 Republicans, they want fairness; we're not
8 getting it.
9 I don't know whether any of you
10 want to remain, maybe if you're from Brooklyn,
11 you have to, but I don't see how, of your own
12 free will and your own judgment, you want to
13 remain opposed to this bill.
14 I think you did it in good
15 conscience, and I value you all as good, honest
16 quality people. But this thing is an
17 abortion, this present practice, it should not
18 persist, and I vote aye.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
20 Senator DiCarlo.
21 SENATOR DiCARLO: Thank you,
22 Mr. President. I rise as a representative of
23 both the county of Kings and the county of
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1 Richmond, Brooklyn and Staten Island, and I
2 want to praise Senator Marchi for this piece of
3 legislation.
4 I agree, it is an absolute
5 disgrace that the people of Staten Island are
6 subjected to basically no representation and
7 total control by Brooklyn. This is a piece of
8 legislation that, in all fairness, should be
9 enacted. The people of Staten Island have a
10 right to decide their judiciary, and right now
11 they have no right. So, I commend Senator
12 Marchi and I urge its passage.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Senator Dollinger, to explain his vote.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: To explain
16 my vote, Mr. President. I couldn't help but be
17 swayed by the oratory of John Marchi, but I
18 voted against this bill last time because I
19 believe what we really need to do is to change
20 the whole way we elect judges, to establish
21 judicial districts that make sense.
22 What's so interesting about my
23 judicial district is that -- I have the good
2199
1 fortune of living in Monroe County -- we have
2 half the population of the 7th Judicial
3 District, and I believe -- Senator Kuhl or
4 someone else may correct me -- we have 95
5 percent of the judges.
6 I'm one of the beneficiaries of
7 a policy of judicial districts that were drawn
8 up at some other time based on some other
9 theory.
10 It seems to me, and although I
11 can support the concept of allowing Staten
12 Island to elect its own corps of judges, its
13 own county judges that would act as Supreme
14 Court judges, what I think we ought to do is
15 pour our attention to court reform and look at
16 changing the way we elect our judges throughout
17 this state.
18 I'm sympathetic to it, but
19 until we deal with the broader issue of
20 fairness regionally for all the regions of this
21 state, I can't vote to create one specific one
22 for Staten Island. But certainly when we get
23 to the issue, as I hope we some day will, about
2200
1 complete court reform, then I hope to be
2 joining Senator Marchi in his voice.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
4 Announce the results, please.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
6 President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
8 Senator Leichter, why do you rise?
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm going
10 to ask that you lay aside the roll call
11 because I think Senator Marchi raised some
12 questions and I think they ought to be
13 addressed. So I'm going to ask that we -- if
14 that means reconsidering the vote or whatever,
15 it just -- I think we have a procedure where
16 you can withdraw the roll call.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
18 Without objection, the roll call will be laid
19 aside.
20 Senator Leichter, you -
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
22 Marchi, if you will yield, please, for a
23 question.
2201
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2 Senator Marchi, do you yield to Senator
3 Leichter?
4 SENATOR MARCHI: Yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
6 The Senator yields.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
8 think you make a very compelling case, and
9 obviously when John Marchi addresses an issue
10 with so much passion, I think it touches all of
11 us. I think Senator Dollinger answered it in
12 part, but there is another thing that I think
13 disturbed us, Senator, and I believe that
14 actually Senator LaValle said he would talk to
15 you about, by creating a new judicial
16 district -
17 SENATOR MARCHI: You're
18 absolutely correct, and I took that out, that
19 it changes -- what he's referring to is the
20 number of people in the Board of Regents, and I
21 took that out so that it would be not be a
22 complicating factor.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: So that it
2202
1 will not affect the -
2 SENATOR MARCHI: It's in the
3 amended bill.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: It will not
5 affect the number of Regents?
6 SENATOR MARCHI: Yes.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: All
8 right. Thank you.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
10 Read the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 7.
12 This act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Call the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the
16 roll.)
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
18 Will the negatives please raise your hands
19 highly so we can see them?
20 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded
21 in the negative on Calendar Number 277 are
22 Senators Babbush, Connor, Dollinger, Lachman,
23 Leichter, Montgomery, and Paterson; also,
2203
1 Senator Kruger. Ayes 48, nays 8.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 The bill is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Also, Senator
5 Smith. Ayes 47, nays 9.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
7 The bill is still passed.
8 Secretary will read -- Senator
9 Farley, why do you rise?
10 SENATOR FARLEY: I would like
11 to be recorded in the negative on Calendar
12 Number 302.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Without objection, Senator Farley will be
15 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number
16 302.
17 Secretary will read, please.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 306, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4578, an
20 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
21 relation to prohibiting the issuance of a
22 driver's license.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
2204
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2 Senator Tully, an explanation has been asked
3 for by Senator Paterson.
4 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you,
5 Mr. President.
6 This piece of legislation is
7 another one in the war against graffiti
8 vandalism and it would prohibit the issuance of
9 a driver's license to certain minors and young
10 adults for one year from the time at which they
11 are convicted of making graffiti.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
13 Senator Paterson, I think you -- why do you
14 rise?
15 SENATOR PATERSON: First, Mr.
16 President, I wanted you to know that -- Senator
17 Gold had a solution, but we'll discuss it
18 later.
19 If Senator Tully would yield
20 for a question.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
22 Senator Tully, would you yield?
23 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
2205
1 President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 He yields, sir.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
5 President, my question to Senator Tully is, do
6 you feel that this legislation is in many ways
7 remote to the actual issue that it's trying to
8 fight? If we're going to fight graffiti, there
9 are penalties that we would attach to an
10 individual who would commit the act of defaming
11 and defiling property; but by denying a
12 driver's license to individuals under age 21,
13 are we not in a speculative way going into
14 other areas of their life, areas that may
15 involve employment, areas that may involve
16 schooling, areas that may involve issues that
17 are related to survival, after we have already
18 punished them for the original vandalism?
19 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
20 President, if I may. Senator Paterson, that's
21 exactly the point.
22 As you probably recall, many
23 years ago, we passed some legislation that
2206
1 provided for the open container law and that
2 really wasn't related as much to the particular
3 violation as it was to the fact that the police
4 departments were having trouble in getting
5 convictions for disorderly conduct because when
6 they'd ask the youngsters to move along, they
7 finally realize as a result of court decisions
8 that if they took a step, they were moving
9 along and they were not subject to conviction
10 for discon; so, we had to find some other
11 methods of getting these groups to disband. One
12 of them was the open container law. Has it
13 worked effectively? I believe so.
14 In this particular case, we do
15 know that, without a doubt, nothing seems to be
16 working in the area of preventing graffiti and
17 we do know that it does lower the quality of
18 life, it's been an economic deterrent, as well
19 as an environmental disaster from the stand
20 point of what our communities look like.
21 This is meant exactly to do
22 what it is you've stated. It's meant to make
23 young people, young adults and minors realize
2207
1 that if they commit this offense of making
2 graffiti, that something will happen to them,
3 that there is a provision in the law that has
4 teeth, and if they do it again or if they do it
5 in this particular situation, they are going to
6 be penalized for it and that penalty will be
7 the taking away of their driver's license.
8 That's only a privilege, it's not a right.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
10 Mr. President.
11 I think that the legislation
12 definitely demonstrates a great deal of
13 creative thinking on Senator Tully's part.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
15 Senator Paterson, are you explaining your vote?
16 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm
17 speaking on the bill, Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
19 Okay. On the bill.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: And I think
21 that these are the types -- this is the type of
22 thought process that leads us to a lot of
23 valuable solutions. I just think in this case
2208
1 the legislation is somewhat excessive; it may
2 interfere with the fact that the individual
3 who's committed the offense may very much be
4 trying to lead a right path and I might even
5 suggest that if they're in a car, then it will
6 be hard for them to be a recidivist on the
7 subway again.
8 Thank you, Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
10 Senator Abate.
11 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, on the
12 bill.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Senator Abate, on the bill.
15 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I agree
16 with the intent of the bill, but I do not
17 believe that the punishment that's outlined
18 here will act as a deterrent.
19 All of us find that graffiti
20 destroys the quality of life, could impact on
21 the economy of that local neighborhood, and
22 young people, as well as adults, who engage in
23 graffiti should be punished. That is not the
2209
1 issue. But the punishment should fit the
2 crime.
3 There are some outstanding
4 criminal justice programs that target graffiti
5 offenders, that's, for instance, community
6 service programs which when an individual is
7 arrested and convicted of graffiti, they must
8 devote hundreds of hours, or whatever, to the
9 community to cleaning up graffiti. It's
10 intrusive, it tells that young person there's a
11 penalty, they need to pay back to society
12 through removing that graffiti.
13 So, yes, individuals should be
14 punished. I think, though, in this case,
15 taking away someone's license is not related to
16 the crime itself. It does not improve the
17 quality of that community. I would prefer
18 mandating if someone is convicted of graffiti
19 that they actually go back into the community
20 they've assaulted, actually go back to the
21 community they victimize, and spend hours
22 cleaning up that community, whether it's
23 removing graffiti or doing some other kind of
2210
1 thing to improve the quality of that
2 community.
3 For those reasons, although I
4 agree with the intent of the change in the
5 legislation, I cannot support it. Thank you.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
7 Senator Oppenheimer.
8 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Well, I
9 have to disagree with my dear colleague because
10 I think this bill is terrific. We have had so
11 many instances of graffiti in my community and
12 surrounding communities and we have tried the
13 community service route and we do make them
14 clean up the mess they made and contribute more
15 in addition to that than just cleaning up. We
16 sometimes have them paint entire parks,
17 benches, fences. It just hasn't seemed to be
18 very effective.
19 And since many of these people
20 committing these crimes are youngsters who I
21 think put the highest value on their driver's
22 license, it seems to be the one thing that
23 really matters to them, and I think this is an
2211
1 effective way to go at the problem.
2 I will also be seeking to
3 vastly increase penalties for graffiti that is
4 motivated out of hate and bias. We have had
5 several incidents recently in my community,
6 actually on the street I live on, in which very
7 damaging and hateful graffiti has appeared on
8 people's homes, and I will be talking about
9 that at another time; but this bill, for this
10 purpose, I think is effective, and I will be
11 voting yes.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
13 Senator Waldon.
14 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you
15 very much, Mr. President. Would Senator Tully,
16 my dear colleague from the Island, yield to a
17 question or two?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
19 Senator Tully, would you yield?
20 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
21 President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
23 Senator Tully yields.
2212
1 SENATOR WALDON: Senator
2 Tully, do you have at your fingertips any data
3 regarding the unemployment rate in the city of
4 New York in regard to African-Americans,
5 Caribbean-Americans, Latino-Americans, Latinos,
6 Hispanics in the five boroughs?
7 SENATOR TULLY: No, Senator, I
8 do not.
9 SENATOR WALDON: Being that
10 you do not, Senator, would you accept the
11 premise -- if I may, Mr. Tully, Mr. President,
12 through you.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Do you continue to yield, Senator?
15 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
16 President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
18 Senator yields.
19 SENATOR WALDON: Would you
20 accept the premise that those people I just
21 mentioned are disproportionately unemployed
22 compared to others in the city of New York?
23 SENATOR TULLY: Senator Waldon,
2213
1 if you're saying that's the premise and that's
2 based on your research and something that you
3 believe in, I will accept the premise.
4 SENATOR WALDON: I appreciate
5 that very much, Senator.
6 If I may continue, Mr.
7 President?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
9 Do you continue to yield, Senator Tully?
10 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
11 President. As a matter of fact, I will
12 continue to yield until Senator Waldon is
13 finished asking me questions so we don't have
14 to go through that for a few more moments.
15 SENATOR WALDON: I appreciate
16 that very much.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
18 The Senator continues to yield indefinitely.
19 SENATOR WALDON: Thank
20 you.
21 Senator Tully, are you aware of
22 what is called "gypsy" cab drivers?
23 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
2214
1 President, I am.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Are you
3 aware that the majority of the people who drive
4 those "gypsy" cabs are people of color, be they
5 from Santo Domingo or Puerto Rico or the
6 Caribbean or born here in America happening to
7 be African-American?
8 SENATOR TULLY: I can't say
9 that I'm aware of that conclusively, but I'm
10 certain that there may be a great number of
11 "gypsy" cab drivers who fit that category.
12 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you
13 very much, Senator Tully.
14 If I may, Mr. President, on the
15 bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
17 Senator Waldon on the bill.
18 SENATOR WALDON: No one abhors
19 graffiti more than I. In fact, the church
20 next to my home in Cambria Heights which was
21 until not too long ago a synagogue has been
22 damaged on a number of occasions with graffiti,
23 and we have together as a community gone to
2215
1 clean it up.
2 The doctor's home around the
3 corner from me, which is a Tudor with the upper
4 portion of it in white wood, kids have climbed
5 up on his garage and written extremely negative
6 statements, very profane statements on his
7 home, and we have as a community gone up there
8 to clean it up.
9 So, I support proper punishment
10 for those who do graffiti. I think this is
11 overbearing. I think that it will dramatically
12 impact those people who are from New York City
13 who happen to be people who are, to a greater
14 extent than others, unemployed and who happen
15 to have a need for jobs, such as "gypsy" cab
16 drivers, and for those reasons, at this time,
17 Senator Tully, I will have to oppose your
18 proposal and vote in the negative.
19 Thank you very much, Mr.
20 President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
22 Read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
2216
1 This act shall take effect on the first day of
2 November.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
4 Call the roll.
5 (The Secretary called the
6 roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes -
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
9 Senator Onorato?
10 SENATOR ONORATO: To explain my
11 vote.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
13 Senator Onorato, to explain his vote.
14 SENATOR ONORATO: Senator
15 Tully, I think this is a good bill. I think it
16 does have one flaw in it that -- which I wish
17 you would have addressed. I think that
18 regardless of what the age is, I don't think
19 graffiti is less offensive if it was committed
20 by someone under 21 or someone over 21 because I
21 know in the city of New York, lately we have
22 caught a large group of graffiti artists who
23 were in their 30s.
2217
1 And I think if this doesn't
2 pass both houses, that in the future you amend
3 the bill to make it regardless of any age, but
4 I do intend to vote for the bill.
5 I vote aye.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
7 Senator Mendez.
8 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr.
9 President, I request unanimous consent to be
10 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number -
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
12 Senator, we're still on a roll call. We'll
13 take care of that in one second. I apologize.
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Oh, oh, thank
15 you.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
17 Read the results, please.
18 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded
19 in the negative on Calendar Number 306 are
20 Senators Abate, Connor, Lachman, Leichter,
21 Paterson and Waldon. Ayes 52, nays 6.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
23 The bill is passed.
2218
1 Senator Mendez.
2 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes. I am
3 requesting unanimous consent to be recorded in
4 the negative on Calendar Number 355, 355.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
6 Senator Mendez, we didn't do that bill today.
7 It's been laid aside for the day, so we'll have
8 to hold off.
9 Secretary will read.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
11 Calendar Number 403, by Senator Holland, Senate
12 Print 211, an act authorizing the United States
13 Military to recruit on the campuses of the
14 State University of New York and such other
15 state college campuses.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation,
17 please.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
19 Senator Holland, an explanation has been asked
20 for by Senator Paterson.
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Just as
22 read, that's basically it. The bill authorizes
23 the United States Military to recruit on
2219
1 campuses of the State University of New York.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 Senator Paterson.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you
5 very much, Mr. President. If the sponsor would
6 please yield for a few questions.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
8 Senator Holland, would you yield for a few
9 questions?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
12 Thank you.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
14 Holland, the legislation you proposed is
15 certainly going to be of great merit and
16 opportunity for many individuals around the
17 state, not the least of which would be
18 constituents in my district, many who have been
19 denied opportunity, many have been closed out
20 of other options and may seek careers, as they
21 have in large numbers, in fact, a majority in
22 the armed services, and just on that basis
23 alone, it would be a good bill.
2220
1 But, there is an issue under
2 lying the legislation that I would like to
3 bring to your attention and ask a few questions
4 and that relates to the many gay and lesbian
5 citizens around New York State whose tax
6 dollars provide the broad revenue bases for
7 which we can provide opportunities to ROTC to
8 come into our campuses, and these individuals
9 who are workers, who are teachers, who are
10 contributors to our society would not be
11 allowed to join the military because of an
12 existing national policy that we feel needs to
13 be changed.
14 Now, the national policy
15 notwithstanding, it would be New York State
16 taxpayer dollars that would allow for this type
17 of activity to continue; and so my question to
18 you is, with a standing gubernatorial executive
19 order to the contrary and a New York State
20 Supreme Court case also supporting it, my
21 question to you is, what other group, whether
22 it be African-Americans, whether it be Jewish
23 individuals, whether it be women, whether it be
2221
1 people, whether it be their race, their
2 religion, their national origin, their age or
3 their disability, what other group, if they
4 were being discriminated against with New York
5 State taxpayer dollars, would we allow this
6 process to continue?
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know
8 if I totally understand your question, Senator,
9 but we are representatives of the people and we
10 usually create laws for the majority. I don't
11 think we should start here to create laws for
12 the African-American, separating them out, or
13 the Irish-Americans or the Italian-Americans.
14 This is a bill that allows
15 recruiting for everybody on the State
16 University campuses. All other State
17 University campuses allow it except the state
18 of New York because of Governor Cuomo's
19 Executive Order 28.1. I believe that was a
20 huge mistake. In fact, the university systems
21 have come back off of it a little bit and there
22 is some recruiting on the campuses now, but it
23 needs to be in law, and I think many people
2222
1 have stated that fact, Senator.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
3 President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
5 Yes.
6 Senator Paterson, he continues
7 to yield.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
9 Holland, you're making my point precisely. I'm
10 not divorcing any individual, whether it by
11 reason of race or religion or national origin
12 or any other classification from the greater
13 family of New York, from the collective
14 citizenry that pay taxes in this state and seek
15 opportunity within the state service.
16 What I'm saying to you is that if
17 there is open discrimination of any particular
18 group other than the group that's affected by
19 this legislation, I'm suggesting to you that we
20 would never tolerate it, that we would not
21 allow any resources of our state, any dollars
22 that were contributed by the citizens of our
23 state to be used in a fashion that
2223
1 discriminates against individuals, even if it
2 does create the great opportunity that it does.
3 And so my question to you was,
4 how can we tolerate allowing for there to be
5 this recruitment on campuses when it has an
6 open policy of discrimination which contravenes
7 the Governor's executive order and a Supreme
8 Court case, Doe versus SUNY, from 1993 which was
9 upheld by the court because of the Governor's
10 executive order?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Doe versus
12 SUNY? I thought it was Doe versus Rosa, but -
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Right,
14 that's the same case, it had different names at
15 different times.
16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Again,
17 Senator, I think we pass laws for the majority
18 and this is a definite majority situation and
19 we should allow recruiting on the State
20 University campuses for all.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator,
22 Mr. President, through you, if Senator Holland
23 would yield for a question.
2224
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I do.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 Senator continues to yield.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm a
5 little bit confused by the response. Are we
6 passing laws to suit the majority, or are we
7 passing laws that are fair to all?
8 There are a number of laws we
9 could pass that would suit the majority, but
10 they would be openly discriminatory and they
11 would create a situation in which there would
12 be a denial of opportunity for citizens in the
13 state.
14 If we are passing legislation
15 that is fair to all citizens, meaning that
16 there may be greater opportunity for some but
17 there is no limitation of opportunity for any,
18 then we would have to vote against this
19 legislation because we are engaging a policy
20 that the military has that is not accepted here
21 in New York State.
22 And so, if you would please
23 clarify and let me know, are we passing a law
2225
1 that simply suits the majority, or are we
2 passing a law that's fair to all citizens?
3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I'm
4 sure that you and I and everybody in this
5 chamber would like to pass laws that are fair
6 to everyone in the state of New York. I don't
7 believe that's ever done. I think we have to
8 pass laws for the majority, that suit the
9 majority, that are best for the majority, and I
10 think this bill absolutely does that.
11 I don't think, in answer to
12 your question, that we ever have passed a law
13 that is approved by 100 percent of the people
14 in this state or this nation or my town or
15 village.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
17 Mr. President, and thank you, Senator Holland,
18 for the answer. If the Senator would continue
19 to yield.
20 Senator, I think there is a
21 slight misunderstanding between the two of us
22 of what we're actually talking about. I'm not
23 talking about legislation that everyone agrees
2226
1 with. I certainly understand and have voted in
2 the negative on a number of pieces of
3 legislation in this chamber, but I accept the
4 fact that the majority of Senators and the
5 majority of people that they represent are in
6 favor of the legislation; and, therefore, even
7 though I may have the minority opinion as a
8 citizen of this state, I accept that the
9 legislation's being passed.
10 What I'm talking about is what
11 I consider to be a policy that is in existence
12 that's prima facie, in other words, it
13 discriminates, it dictates that individuals
14 who, by the nature of sexual orientation, would
15 be excluded from what would be the opportunity
16 provided for in the legislation, provided for
17 by taxpayer dollars, maybe even their own
18 taxpayer dollars.
19 So, I'm not saying that
20 everyone has to agree with a law, I'm saying
21 that a law has to apply in such a way as it
22 affords equal protection under what I consider
23 to be the constitutional protections of the
2227
1 Fifth Amendment.
2 So, what I'm saying is that
3 this state, through its executive order,
4 through the Governor's executive order, has
5 banned this type of discrimination and that we
6 have a privilege to not allow for there to be
7 recruitment in this form on campuses if we so
8 choose. This is not what this legislation
9 does, it actually allows it to happen.
10 And so if we take a further
11 look at the Supreme Court case, the Doe case,
12 it upholds what the plaintiff was seeking in
13 this particular situation because of the fact
14 that the SUNY policy was in violation of the
15 Governor's executive order.
16 And so I guess what I'm asking
17 you is, do you not concede that the legislation
18 is discriminatory?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, Senator,
20 I do not, and as a matter of fact it is -- I
21 think the opinion of Doe versus Rosa was based
22 on your President's opinion, "Don't ask, don't
23 tell," and that's what the opinion was based
2228
1 on. I don't think it's discriminatory,
2 Senator. I think not to let the military on
3 our campus would be discriminatory.
4 I think since the federal
5 military is our protector, nationally and
6 internationally, that it only makes sense to me
7 to allow them on the campus and, if we do not,
8 I think we're discriminating against the
9 military and the hiring of people from our
10 state.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you
12 very much, Senator. If Senator Holland would
13 continue to yield.
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
16 Senator yields.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: I
18 appreciate, Senator, what your interpretation
19 of the court's decision is, and though it's not
20 mine, it certainly is valid, but what I would
21 like to draw your attention to is what the
22 court's decision was, not the dicta, and the
23 decision was that there was discrimination in
2229
1 this particular case. I don't think that we
2 would be discriminating against the military as
3 much as we are sending a message to the
4 military that we're not going to invest in an
5 operation that practices this type of
6 discrimination, and so what I'm suggesting -
7 if I might speak on the bill, Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
9 Senator Paterson, on the bill.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: What I'm
11 suggesting is that often there are very vital
12 pieces of legislation that we have introduced
13 that we have to be mindful may apply in such a
14 fashion as it denies opportunity to particular
15 individuals. There are some pieces of
16 legislation I'd like to see on the floor of
17 this Senate regarding the discrimination of gay
18 and lesbian citizens, the first of which would
19 be the civil rights legislation which would
20 allow equal opportunity in employment and in
21 housing and in education and in jobs. When we
22 look at that legislation, we will have an
23 opportunity to stop the discrimination there.
2230
1 If we look at the bias
2 legislation where we are going to increase the
3 penalties for bias crimes and provide for what
4 will be penalties for individuals in addition
5 to committing a violent act who are actually
6 motivated that way because of the race or
7 religion or the sexual orientation or the
8 national origin of the victim, I think that's
9 a way that we can address it.
10 For today we have a piece of
11 legislation that I think enables us the
12 opportunity to address it also.
13 I think I understand the great
14 opportunity that this legislation would
15 provide. There are numbers of people,
16 African-Americans, men and women from my
17 district, and other nationalities, who haven't
18 had much opportunity, and this legislation, its
19 main purpose is quite valid because it will
20 provide for it, but I'm not going to support a
21 bias bill that has bias included in it, and I'm
22 not going to be able to vote for this
23 legislation when I see individuals who have
2231
1 fought and suffered and paid throughout the
2 centuries for some reason that has nothing at
3 all to do with any kind of anti-social
4 behavior but is, rather, a personal expression;
5 and for that reason, I would encourage that
6 this bill not be supported because I think that
7 there is inherently, in spite of what is a very
8 valid purpose, an application of the
9 legislation which would affect people in
10 different ways.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
12 Just so everybody is aware, we have a list here
13 of four more speakers on this particular bill,
14 starting with Senator Waldon.
15 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you
16 very much, Mr. President. Will Senator Holland
17 yield for a question or two? Holland?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
19 Senator Holland, would you yield for some
20 questions from Senator Waldon?
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
23 He will yield, sir.
2232
1 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, do
2 you recall when we went from conscription to a
3 volunteer military?
4 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do.
5 SENATOR WALDON: Were you in
6 the military, Senator Holland?
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't have
8 the date when it happened, I just remember it
9 happened. Can you remind me of the date?
10 SENATOR WALDON: No, no. I
11 said were you in the military at all?
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir, I
13 was in the United States Marine Corps.
14 SENATOR WALDON: Do you happen
15 to have -- did you or do you happen to have any
16 information regarding the numbers of those in
17 the military who are from the African-American,
18 Caribbean-American, Latino communities?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do not
20 have the figures, no, sir.
21 SENATOR WALDON: Do you recall
22 when you were in the military -- well, if I
23 may, Mr. President, may I continue?
2233
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2 Yes.
3 SENATOR WALDON: Senator
4 continue to yield?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
6 We're following the Tully policy on this one,
7 sir.
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's
9 right.
10 SENATOR WALDON: Were you in
11 the service during the Korean era?
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: I was in the
13 Reserves from '53 to '60 and in the Regulars
14 from '60 to '63.
15 SENATOR WALDON: Okay. Do you
16 recall at any time during your military
17 experience information that might indicate that
18 disproportionate to their numbers in society,
19 blacks, Afro-American, Caribbean-American and
20 other people of color have served in the
21 military? Do you understand what I'm saying?
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I do.
23 Actually, the percentage changed greatly from
2234
1 1953 when I entered the Reserves until I got
2 out back in '63. The percentage of African
3 Americans increased by a great amount; I don't
4 know what the figures are.
5 SENATOR WALDON: If I
6 understand you correctly, Senator, the response
7 to my question is that yes, African-Americans
8 now far outnumber in the military their number
9 in our society-at-large, is that correct?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: I would say
11 yes, sir.
12 SENATOR WALDON: Are you
13 aware that Colin Powell did not attend any of
14 our military academies?
15 SENATOR HOLLAND: I am.
16 SENATOR WALDON: Can you tell
17 us, please, from your information, where he
18 received his training as a military officer?
19 SENATOR HOLLAND: I don't know
20 where he received his training in the military.
21 I know he went to the city of New York; I don't
22 know after that.
23 SENATOR WALDON: Well, I was
2235
1 in his class, his ROTC class, and he is a
2 product of ROTC and went on to become the
3 chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Thank
4 you, Senator Holland. Thank you, Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
6 Senator Dollinger.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator
8 Holland yield just for a couple quick questions?
9 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
10 Senator, will you yield?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: I yield.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you
13 tell me the current status of military
14 recruiters' access to state college campuses in
15 New York?
16 SENATOR HOLLAND: They are
17 basically on the campuses; the only thing they
18 can't do, they are prohibited from using
19 university placement services.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just so I
21 understand it, this bill doesn't specifically
22 say that they can use university placement
23 services, does it?
2236
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: It says that
2 they can do any recruitment on the -- that any
3 other organization can on the campuses of SUNY
4 and CUNY.
5 They are limited in that right
6 now.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay.
8 Again, through you, Mr. President, there's
9 nothing in this bill that says that. This bill
10 says simply that they can send representatives
11 for the purposes of recruiting.
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's
13 correct.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It doesn't
15 say anything that says that they can use the
16 university's recruitment services, does it?
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, it
18 doesn't in so many words, no, but it basically
19 puts them on the same level as anybody else
20 recruiting on the campuses.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay.
22 Well, I guess I'd just point out if that's what
23 is really intended, I would have been a bit
2237
1 more artful in my drafting, but let me ask
2 another couple questions.
3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Okay.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there
5 any evidence that you're aware of that, as a
6 consequence of the executive order that is
7 referenced in the memo in support of this, that
8 in any way the recruiting practices among any
9 population on the state campuses has been
10 affected as a consequence of that executive
11 order?
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Has it
13 changed any of the recruiting on state
14 campuses?
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again,
16 through you, Mr. President, Senator Holland, I
17 apologize, it's not an artful question at all.
18 Is there any evidence that in
19 the wake of the enactment of the executive
20 order, that the recruitment to any one of the
21 branches of the United States military was
22 impacted as a consequence of the order? It
23 went up, or went down or it stayed the same, do
2238
1 you have any evidence that shows its effect
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do not
3 have the percentages, Senator. I know that
4 there was a great debate when the order was
5 signed and a few other times, and I do not know
6 if there was a huge decrease or a huge
7 increase. I know that for the first amount of
8 time, they were more limited than they are
9 now, and then the SUNY people and the CUNY
10 people allowed them to come back on the
11 campuses, with the exception of the placement
12 services.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay, but
14 just so I understand it, Mr. President, there's
15 no evidence that the effect of the executive
16 order was in any way to deny opportunities to
17 anyone who was on the college campus who wanted
18 to be in the military, that it actually reduced
19 the number of people who gained access, is that
20 correct?
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, but
22 the thing is, it's much easier for college
23 students who are going to school on a
2239
1 University campus if the recruiters for whoever
2 ALCOA, whatever, the military, come to the
3 campuses, it makes it much easier for them, you
4 have to understand that.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I
6 understand that, but I'm simply trying to find
7 out is there any objective evidence, because I
8 think one of the points that's been made is,
9 would -- excuse me, has the executive order
10 denied opportunities in the military for our
11 college students? I think the answer that
12 you've given me is that you do not know.
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I do not
14 have the percentages, no, I do not, but I feel
15 that there would have been more opportunities,
16 just as Senator Paterson said, more opportun
17 ities had the military been on the campus.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again,
19 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Holland
20 would continue to yield.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
22 Senator continues to yield.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: There was
2240
1 a time in this country, Senator, when the
2 United States Military had a segregated policy,
3 that is, it had a white military and a black
4 military. Would it have been appropriate for
5 New York State at that time to suggest that
6 military recruiters couldn't come on campus
7 unless they recruited everyone to the same
8 Army?
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: I wasn't
10 here then, Senator, I don't know. It doesn't
11 sound right.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It doesn't
13 sound -
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Doesn't sound
15 right.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, then
17 I'd ask you the following question: If the
18 United States Military said that, "Because of
19 your sexual orientation, you can be in the
20 Army, but if you have a sexual orientation that
21 is not a majority accepted sexual orientation,
22 you can't be in the Army," doesn't it seem as
23 though it doesn't sound right to you?
2241
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: This is
2 somewhat what I wanted to say to the last
3 question that Senator Paterson had. I know
4 what the court case says and that's why I'm
5 here, to change the court case. I think that's
6 wrong. I think we are discriminating against
7 our people who are students who are on the
8 campuses of SUNY and CUNY by not allowing the
9 military full access to the placement
10 services. I believe that is discrimination.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
12 through you, Mr. President, would it be
13 discrimination -
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
15 Senator Holland, do you want to continue to
16 yield?
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you
19 think it's discrimination if the United States
20 Military refused to allow African-Americans to
21 serve in the military?
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: It certainly
23 would today, Senator. I don't know what it was
2242
1 back when you were a baby, or before that, when
2 things were different -- that was a joke.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: It
4 actually was before I was a baby.
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Things
6 change. It certainly is wrong, no question
7 about it. Things change, but I believe this
8 Executive Order 28.1 and the court case is
9 discrimination today.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay.
11 Mr. President, on the bill.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
13 Senator Dollinger, on the bill.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I
15 appreciate Senator Holland's candor.
16 I guess some things never
17 change, and I would just like to read something
18 that I think still has truth: "Every
19 generation has come to understand the basic
20 wisdom of our Constitution, that only by
21 protecting the freedom of others can we ensure
22 it for ourselves; that to encourage or allow
23 government to discriminate against any belief
2243
1 or creed or private way of life would threaten
2 us all. This is so because we could never be
3 sure which particular value would dominate
4 government at any particular point in time.
5 Only neutrality by government was deemed safe
6 and that is what our Constitution assures."
7 I understand what this proposal
8 seeks to do; I'm not sure, quite frankly, in
9 reading the bill it actually achieves what
10 Senator Holland would like to achieve. This
11 simply says that you can permit them access;
12 they already have access. But the lines I just
13 read from were from the Executive Order 28 in
14 which the state of New York, as a position, as
15 a state policy, the Governor, acting through
16 the executive order, said we are not going to
17 permit any institution which gets benefits from
18 the state to discriminate on the basis of
19 sexual orientation.
20 It seems to me that was the
21 policy back in 1983, that it changed a policy
22 that was a bad policy which in my judgment the
23 military discriminates on the basis of sexual
2244
1 orientation, much like it once did on the basis
2 of race. It was wrong to do it on the basis of
3 race; it's wrong to do it on the basis of
4 sexual orientation.
5 I daresay, if there were still
6 a segregated military on the basis of race, we
7 would be proud to ban military recruiters
8 because we believed that it was unjust and
9 unfair and against the American theory of
10 government to allow the military to
11 discriminate on the basis of race.
12 And so, Mr. President, I'm
13 going to vote against this, as I did last
14 year. It seems to me this is all about
15 fundamental liberties, it's all about what we
16 believe as a state, it's all about what we
17 share in common, much as Governor Cuomo -- then
18 Governor Cuomo outlined in the executive
19 order. It's all about the concept that
20 by neutrality, government was deemed safe, and
21 that's what our Constitution assured.
22 I regret the fact that the
23 United States military has a policy that
2245
1 prohibits and discriminates on the basis of
2 sexual orientation. I know that there are
3 people up on the wall in Vietnam, people who
4 gave their lives in World War II, people who
5 continue to give their lives for their country
6 who may be gay and it seems to me it's grossly
7 unfair that our country doesn't recognize that,
8 doesn't recognize that the military's policy on
9 this is wrong-headed, and it seems to me we in
10 this state should send a clear message to the
11 generals in Washington and to everyone else who
12 believes that sexual orientation is a fitting
13 way to divide people in our nation. That's
14 wrong.
15 We should only judge people by
16 the strength and the content of their character
17 as Dr. King once told us. It seems to me the
18 military does not do that. We in this state
19 sent them a message in 1983 that that was
20 wrong. I think by voting no against this bill
21 we will send them a continuing message that
22 that's wrong and, consistent with America's view
23 of fair-handedness for everyone, it ought to be
2246
1 changed.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 Senator Abate.
4 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, on the
5 bill. I think my colleague -
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
7 Senator Abate, on the bill.
8 SENATOR ABATE: I think my
9 colleagues have so eloquently stated their
10 opposition to this bill; but I, too, want to be
11 on record stating why I oppose the bill. We
12 have before us two competing interests. One, I
13 believe, is fundamental, goes against the grain
14 of our Constitution, against the fundamental
15 reasons why we call ourselves Americans.
16 The other interest is the
17 capacity and the ability for the military to
18 recruit. And let me just take a moment to
19 discuss these interests.
20 When an entity such as -- an
21 institution such as the military engages in a
22 policy that either overtly or through disparate
23 impact affects a segment of our society -- in
2247
1 this case, it's lesbians and gays -- we as a
2 state and we as a legislature, have to send a
3 strong message that in nowhere, whether it's in
4 housing or in education or equal opportunity,
5 whether it's employment, that no member of our
6 society should face discrimination or be placed
7 in an unequal position because of who they are
8 and what they stand for.
9 If we were to substitute and
10 the policy were not if you're gay or lesbian,
11 you'll be dismissed by the military, if we
12 would dismiss gay and lesbian as a criteria and
13 put in its place a substitution, an Irish
14 American man, an Italian-American woman, a
15 Jewish man, a Latino, an African-American, we
16 today would have no sympathy or tolerance to
17 supporting this legislation because it would
18 have a disparate impact on a subset of students
19 in those facilities who want access to the
20 military but are denied that access because of
21 who they are, not because of their ability to
22 perform, be loyal Americans or do the job, just
23 because of the stigmatization because they
2248
1 belong to one group or another.
2 I believe this is a bill about
3 fundamental rights, equal protection under the
4 law. If we as a legislature can't put aside
5 our bigotry and our biases, and we all have
6 those biases at one time or the other, we must
7 recall in our lives where one of us have faced
8 discrimination. Whether it's our ancestors or
9 our current generation, we know what it feels
10 like to feel hatred and bigotry. We have to
11 take that pain we've individually felt, apply
12 that pain to this discriminated group, and
13 stand up.
14 The other interest is the
15 interest -- and I am sympathetic because there
16 are needed jobs, the military needs to recruit,
17 but by this bill, we're not saying to the
18 military they cannot recruit. What we're
19 saying is they cannot do it in state
20 institutions as long as they discriminate
21 against any member of New York State. They
22 still can advertise, they still can send
23 letters to students on campuses, they can use
2249
1 student groups, nothing prevents them from
2 setting up an office across the street from the
3 campus and doing recruitment.
4 So, now we're putting two
5 interests, one is of constitutional merit
6 against administrative capacity. In my mind,
7 while there is some merit on the part of the
8 military to have an ability to make it easy for
9 them to recruit, that is a lesser interest
10 today that must be protected, and for those
11 reasons, I oppose this bill.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
13 Senator Marchi -- he waives.
14 Read the last section,
15 please -- I'm sorry, Senator Leichter, why do
16 you rise?
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would
18 Senator Holland yield for a question or two,
19 please?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
21 Senator Holland, do you yield to Senator
22 Leichter?
23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
2250
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2 He yields.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator,
4 were you asked by the U.S. military or a
5 representative of the Pentagon to put in this
6 bill?
7 SENATOR HOLLAND: No. No, sir.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: This is all
9 your idea?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: I hope so.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Did anybody
12 from the military come to you and say, "Senator
13 Holland, please help us. America's military
14 preparedness is being hurt. We need this bill
15 because we're being limited in our recruitment
16 on New York State campuses?"
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, sir. It
18 came about -- I believe you -- because of the
19 executive order of Mario Cuomo.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry,
21 I didn't hear you, sir.
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: I said no,
23 sir, I believe it came about because of the
2251
1 executive order of Governor Cuomo.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: I under
3 stand, but is it your view that the military is
4 being limited and being impacted negatively by
5 that?
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I
7 believe it is, Senator, and I really object to
8 what Senator Abate said. She said let all the
9 other companies come in on the campuses and set
10 up and talk to the students the way they want
11 to. Have the military get a place across the
12 street. I think that's degrading.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: But,
14 Senator, it's your view, if I understand your
15 answer to my question, that this, as you see
16 it, negatively affects the U. S. military's
17 recruitment in New York State?
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator,
20 if you would be good enough to continue to
21 yield.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
23 Senator, do you continue to yield?
2252
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 Senator continues to yield.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: And I
5 appreciate that that is your genuine, sincerely
6 held view, but did you check with anybody in
7 the military whether that was actually the
8 case?
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: What? What
10 was actually the case?
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Your believe
12 that the executive order had a negative -
13 SENATOR HOLLAND: I've read a
14 lot of things, Senator, and I can tell you that
15 they say, and here's some issues on focus, that
16 they are on campus, as you say, but they are
17 prohibited from using university placement
18 services that every other organization that the
19 recruiting office on campus can use.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if
21 you would continue to yield.
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, I do.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: It may be
2253
1 that that's really very insignificant, very
2 unimportant. I mean, I know that I have not
3 been approached by anybody from the military. I
4 don't believe that anybody from the military,
5 an official representative of the U. S.
6 military has said, "We need Senator Holland's
7 bill," and I was just interested what led you
8 to do this. You're obviously trying to help
9 the military, aren't you?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: I believe we,
11 you and I, this country, this state, owes a lot
12 to the military of this nation and the people
13 who serve in that military.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Absolutely.
15 SENATOR HOLLAND: And I think
16 it's degrading when they cannot get the same
17 placement services or offer these services to
18 the students of the universities of this state
19 and are told to go across the street and find
20 something over there and maybe the students
21 will come and find you.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if
23 you'll agree with me, the issue is that we want
2254
1 to see the U. S. military, in order to carry
2 out their mission, to be able to recruit in a
3 way that the military thinks is important, is
4 that correct?
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Is that the
7 basic issue here?
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: Or the same
9 rights as anybody else.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: But,
11 Senator, wouldn't it be something that we ought
12 to look to the military to tell us? Now, I
13 have a lot of respect for you as a Senator. You
14 told me you were in the Marine Corps. I'm sure
15 you served with great honor, but, you know,
16 you're not a representative of the Pentagon,
17 you're not really current on what their
18 recruitment needs are, nor am I.
19 I served in the military, too.
20 We have two members here who are colonels, they
21 served in the military, but they're not
22 current either as to what their recruitment
23 needs are. I just wonder whether this bill is
2255
1 really being driven by the need of the military
2 or whether there's another reason here.
3 SENATOR HOLLAND: Senator, I
4 don't know if everybody in this house checks
5 with the highest authority whenever they pass a
6 bill. Maybe it's a kosher bill. Do we check
7 with God? No, we don't do that. I didn't
8 check with the Pentagon. I think it's a good
9 idea. I think the military ought to have the
10 rights that every other recruiting firm does on
11 campus, and that's why I put the bill in. If
12 you want to blame it solely on me, fine.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: But,
14 Senator, God has his representatives here, he's
15 got rabbis, you can check with rabbis. The
16 military has their representatives, too. I'm
17 not saying that you have to check with -- and
18 I'm embarrassed to say I can't pronounce the
19 name of our Chief of Staff.
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: I can't,
21 either.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: I would
23 accept that, "No, I didn't talk to the Chief of
2256
1 Staff, but I talked to this general and I
2 received a letter from this colonel." I mean,
3 I just don't understand why, well-intentioned
4 as you are, you're riding, you know, like the
5 cavalry to the rescue of the U. S. Military and
6 they're saying, "What's Holland doing? Who
7 needs this? We haven't asked for it."
8 SENATOR HOLLAND: One other
9 side of the argument that we already made is it
10 also opens up more opportunities for the
11 students on the campuses. Let's put that one
12 in. Do you want to try that one? I mean,
13 I've exasperated myself on the others.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator,
15 then let me ask you, was there any student
16 group that reached out to you?
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: No.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Was there a
19 group of black students, since obviously -- and
20 I share the concern that they have the maximum
21 opportunity because we know the importance of
22 that, but did anybody ask of that group, ask
23 you to put in this bill?
2257
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: No, sir, but
2 a number of people in this house mentioned it.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay.
4 Thank you, Senator, I appreciate it and, as
5 always, Senator Holland, you're very candid and
6 you're very forthright, very direct in your
7 answers.
8 I mean, it seems to me that
9 when you pass -
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
11 Senator Leichter, are you on the bill?
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If I may,
13 Mr. President, on the bill.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
15 Senator Leichter, on the bill.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you have
17 a bill of this sort whose aim and purpose is to
18 assist the U. S. military in recruitment, the
19 U. S. military said, "We don't need it, we
20 didn't ask for it, not a single letter." I
21 think has anybody here received where the U. S.
22 military has said, "Do we really need this"?
23 And I must say, Senator Holland, and I'm not
2258
1 suggesting this was your motivation, but you
2 cannot help but feel there's a homophobic
3 content to this bill, that this bill really
4 doesn't have so much to do with the military as
5 it has to do with somehow stigmatizing gays and
6 lesbians, and that's really how the bill
7 strikes me and how it strikes many people.
8 If, indeed, there was a problem
9 here for the military, then it's something that
10 maybe we need to address; but when there is no
11 problem whatsoever and when New York State has
12 had a policy that we abhor discrimination in
13 any form, shape or manner against any group,
14 any individual, and that is a policy that we
15 very genuinely, sincerely hold, it's a solemn
16 belief that we have, and for that reason, we
17 have had this executive order which expresses
18 our policy, apparently has created no problems
19 for the military, so my question is, why this
20 bill, and I must say that the view that I have
21 of it and what comes across for me is that
22 we're not really dealing with the military;
23 what we're doing, unfortunately, is stigma
2259
1 tizing people, and for that reason, I cannot
2 support this bill.
3 Thank you.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
5 Senator Hoblock.
6 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Thank you,
7 Mr. President. Just briefly on the bill.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
9 Senator Hoblock, on the bill briefly.
10 SENATOR HOBLOCK: I listened
11 to the debate last year, listened to the debate
12 this year. I've heard the arguments on this
13 issue so many times; and quite frankly, I get a
14 little more surprised all the time in terms of
15 what is being brought into the debate.
16 Senator Leichter, in all due
17 respect, I don't know of anybody that is trying
18 to push for this bill, either. I don't think
19 that the defense of our country is going to
20 rest on the rise or fall of this bill. I think
21 there's been a number of recruiters that have
22 expressed an interest and felt that they have
23 been discriminated against and I guess it's a
2260
1 matter of that and a matter of courtesy.
2 We also see being brought into
3 the bill the issue that powers in Washington,
4 the President and Congress have made certain
5 decisions about who ought to be in the military
6 or not, and we're debating this bill because we
7 ought to make a statement that we disagree with
8 their decisions.
9 Well, respectfully, I would
10 request that you write to President Clinton and
11 ask him to change his mind, or perhaps you
12 might want to run for Congress and be part of
13 that decision-making process; but the point is,
14 that happens to be what they decided and we are
15 here in New York living with those decisions
16 like we live with all others. And I tell you
17 that we could probably spend a lot of time
18 passing a lot of legislation here making
19 statements to Washington because we disagree
20 with what's going on there.
21 But, we're dealing with the
22 reality here and the reality is that because we
23 disagree or there are some that disagree with
2261
1 some of the policies made in Washington as it
2 concerns our United States military, therefore,
3 we're going to discriminate against it and we
4 are going to choose where they're going to be
5 and where they're not going to be.
6 They are on private colleges
7 and universities now. Why are we not debating
8 taking them off of those campuses? They
9 receive taxpayers' funds. Why are we not doing
10 that? Why don't we start debating back and
11 forth as to where everybody ought to go based
12 on our individual beliefs, our social values,
13 as to what is discrimination and what's not.
14 All we're trying to do here is
15 to give students fair opportunity and give an
16 employer fair opportunity. But, in trying to
17 develop that fair opportunity, it's got to be
18 based on what our view of the social values are
19 of that particular employer or the group
20 they're trying to attract. I think we've got
21 to get beyond that.
22 If somebody feels that they
23 shouldn't be there, fine, don't pander to them,
2262
1 don't apply; but by doing so, I think we're
2 denying a lot of other people and I think
3 that's as much discrimination, I don't think
4 it's any less, it's as much.
5 So Senator Holland, I'm going
6 to congratulate you on this bill and I'll be
7 glad to support it.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
9 Senator Gold.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Yes, Mr.
11 President, I'll be very brief, but I wanted to
12 just clear something up. I listened to Senator
13 Leichter and I kept wondering, and I didn't
14 want to ask him to yield, but I said to myself
15 if Senator Holland did or did not have the
16 support of the government would it change his
17 vote? So, I don't understand the question.
18 Senator Holland, it wouldn't
19 change my vote. I think that a member is
20 allowed to have an idea and bring it to the
21 floor and get support or not. But on all the
22 other scores, I do agree with the position of
23 those who feel that there is something that may
2263
1 be even more important than this bill and
2 that's the divisiveness of where it winds up.
3 I've listened to some of my
4 colleagues in terms of what the military has
5 done for people in this country, and there's no
6 doubt but that some people have done very well
7 who may not have done well if they had not been
8 in the military; but I think there is a major
9 issue in the military which too many people in
10 this country are not dealing with and it's
11 something we should deal with.
12 This is a phenomenal country.
13 I wouldn't want to live any place else. It
14 doesn't mean that we can't make it better, and
15 the problem is that when people talk about
16 making it better, there's always somebody who
17 says, "If you don't like it here, move." Well,
18 I ain't moving. I'm staying here and we're
19 going to fight to make it better, and one of
20 the ways we can make it better is to make
21 people feel more comfortable where they're
22 being made uncomfortable in a situation where
23 other people have no right to make them feel
2264
1 uncomfortable and, for the reasons that have
2 been set forth, I, too, will vote against the
3 bill.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
5 Read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
7 This act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
9 Excuse me. Senator Paterson, why do you rise?
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
11 President, we would like a slow roll call
12 on this bill.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 I need to see five Senators up for a slow roll
15 call.
16 A slow roll call has been
17 called for.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Can we sound
19 the bell?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
21 Would the bells ring, please, for a slow roll
22 call?
23 For the notice of everyone
2265
1 within earshot, there has been a slow roll call
2 requested by Senator Paterson on this bill, S
3 211.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
5 SENATOR ABATE: No.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi.
7 (Affirmative indication)
8 Senator Babbush.
9 SENATOR BABBUSH: No.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno.
11 (Affirmative indication)
12 Senator Connor.
13 (Negative indication)
14 Senator Cook.
15 (There was no response.)
16 Senator DeFrancisco.
17 (There was no response.)
18 Senator DiCarlo.
19 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator
21 Dollinger.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: To explain
23 my vote, Mr. President.
2266
1 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
2 Senator DiCarlo to explain his vote.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think
4 I'm Senator Dollinger, but -
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
6 Senator Dollinger. You look so much alike, I
7 couldn't help it.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I just have
9 to respond to a comment made by the chairman of
10 the Veterans Committee which I appreciate but I
11 respectfully disagree with. When the comment
12 is that by this bill what we're really trying
13 to do is give the military a fair opportunity,
14 it seems to me that what we're doing is giving
15 someone a fair opportunity who doesn't, in
16 turn, give a fair opportunity to the students
17 in our schools, And a fair opportunity would
18 be to look someone in the eye and say, "You're
19 smart enough, you're strong enough, you've got
20 enough courage, you've got enough personal
21 fortitude to give your life for your country,
22 and under those circumstances, you can be a
23 member of the United States military;" but it
2267
1 seems to me what we do is we deny them a fair
2 opportunity when what we say is, "You can have
3 all those things, but if you happen to be gay,
4 you can't do it." That's fundamentally unfair.
5 So, it seems to me the notion
6 that we're giving someone a fair opportunity to
7 be unfair to the students that I represent, all
8 the students that I represent, it seems to me
9 there is something wrong with that and under
10 those circumstances, as I said before, I will
11 be voting against this bill.
12 No.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Continue the roll.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
16 (There was no response.)
17 Senator Farley.
18 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
20 SENATOR GOLD: No.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator
22 Gonzalez.
23 SENATOR GONZALEZ: No.
2268
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Goodman.
3 SENATOR GOODMAN: No.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Hannon.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Hoblock.
8 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator
10 Hoffmann.
11 (There was no response.)
12 Senator Holland.
13 (Affirmative indication)
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator
15 Johnson.
16 (There was no response.)
17 Senator Kruger.
18 SENATOR KRUGER: No.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
20 SENATOR KUHL: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator
22 Lachman.
23 SENATOR LACHMAN: No.
2269
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
2 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
4 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
6 SENATOR LaVALLE: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
8 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator
10 Leichter.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: No.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
13 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Maltese.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Marcellino.
20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
22 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2270
1 Markowitz.
2 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator
4 Maziarz.
5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Montgomery.
9 (There was no response.)
10 Senator Nanula.
11 SENATOR NANULA: No.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator
13 Nozzolio.
14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Onorato.
17 SENATOR ONORATO: No.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator
19 Oppenheimer.
20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator
22 Padavan.
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
2271
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Paterson.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
4 President, to explain my vote.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
6 Senator Paterson, to explain his vote.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: The
8 executive order that was promulgated in 1983 by
9 Governor Cuomo, 28.1, bans this type of
10 discrimination that we've been discussing in
11 state service and employment. What is
12 happening here is that -
13 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
14 Excuse me, Senator Paterson.
15 Ladies and gentlemen, can we
16 have some order in the house to hear the
17 Senator?
18 Thank you very much.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: What is
20 happening, Mr. President, is that ROTC, or any
21 other recruiter, any other employer, ALCOA, are
22 subjected to the same -- would be subjected to
23 the same treatment if they were discriminating
2272
1 against anybody by reason of race or religion
2 or national origin or sexual orientation.
3 So what we're really saying is
4 we're not talking about a national policy,
5 we're talking about a state policy and we're
6 saying that if there is a clear evidence of
7 discrimination, that we treat the employers the
8 same. And this is the reason that we would
9 suggest that there are other ways of recruit
10 ment that the military can engage in without
11 this need to come on campuses and do it at the
12 expense of taxpayers who are, at the same time,
13 being victimized.
14 This bill does create a
15 tremendous opportunity for people who have been
16 denied opportunity; but maybe we're really
17 missing the message that Dr. King admonished us
18 over a quarter of century ago, that when
19 there is no justice anywhere, there's injustice
20 everywhere.
21 So I would not want to be in a
22 situation where myself or any other group of
23 people are benefitting when others are being
2273
1 denied, and for that, Mr. President, I must
2 vote no on this legislation.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
4 Continue the roll, please.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator
6 Present.
7 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
9 SENATOR RATH: Yes.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
11 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator
13 Santiago.
14 (There was no response.)
15 Senator Seabrook.
16 SENATOR SEABROOK: No.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears.
18 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
20 SENATOR SEWARD: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
22 (Affirmative indication)
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
2274
1 SENATOR SMITH: No.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Stachowski.
5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Stafford.
8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator
10 Stavisky.
11 SENATOR STAVISKY: No.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo.
13 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
15 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Velella.
18 (Affirmative indication)
19 Senator Volker.
20 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
22 (Affirmative indication)
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2275
1 Wright.
2 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
4 Will you call the absentees, please?
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator
6 DeFrancisco.
7 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada,
9 excused.
10 Senator Hannon.
11 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator
13 Hoffmann.
14 (There was no response.)
15 Senator Johnson.
16 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator
18 Maltese.
19 (There was no response.)
20 Senator Mendez.
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator
23 Montgomery.
2276
1 (There was no response.)
2 Senator Santiago.
3 (There was no response.)
4 Senator Spano.
5 (There was no response.)
6 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
7 Results, please.
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 36, nays
9 19.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
11 The bill is passed.
12 Senator Skelos.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr.
14 President, is there any housekeeping at the
15 desk?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
17 No, there is none, sir.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: There being
19 no further business, I move we adjourn until
20 Tuesday, March 19th, 19 -
21 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
22 Senator Paterson?
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Would you
2277
1 please recognize Senator Mendez.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
3 Senator Mendez.
4 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you,
5 Mr. President. There is going to be a
6 Democratic conference.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
8 Excuse me.
9 SENATOR MENDEZ: There is
10 going to be a Minority conference in Room 314
11 immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
13 There is an immediate call after session ends,
14 Room 314, for the Democrat conference.
15 Senator Skelos.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: There being
17 no further business, I move we adjourn until
18 Tuesday, March 19, 1996, at 3:00 p.m. sharp.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
20 Without objection, the Senate stands adjourned
21 until Tuesday, March 19 at 3:00 p.m. sharp.
22 (Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m., the
23 Senate adjourned.)