Regular Session - March 27, 1996
2769
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 March 27, 1996
10 3:03 p.m.
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12
13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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2770
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
3 come to order. Would everyone please rise and
4 join me in the Pledge of Allegiance.
5 (The assemblage repeated the
6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
7 May we bow our heads in a moment
8 of silence.
9 (A moment of silence was
10 observed.)
11 Reading of the Journal, please.
12 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
13 Tuesday, March 26th. The Senate met pursuant to
14 adjournment, the prayer by the Reverend Thomas
15 Stiles, First Baptist Church of West Seneca.
16 The Journal of Monday, March 25th, was read and
17 approved. On motion, the Senate adjourned.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Without
19 objection, the Journal stands approved as read.
20 Presentation of petitions.
21 Messages from the Assembly.
22 Messages from the Governor.
23 Reports of standing committees.
2771
1 Reports of select committees.
2 Communications and reports from
3 state officers.
4 Motions and resolutions.
5 Senator Volker.
6 SENATOR VOLKER: Madam President,
7 I wish to call up my bill, Calendar Number 212,
8 Assembly Print Number 5707-B.
9 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
10 will read.
11 THE SECRETARY: Assembly Bill
12 5707-B, by Member of the Assembly Hochberg, an
13 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in
14 relation to a defendant's right.
15 SENATOR VOLKER: I now move to
16 reconsider the vote by which this Assembly bill
17 was substituted for my bill, Senate Print Number
18 5741, on February 7th, 1996.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll on
20 reconsideration, please.
21 (The Secretary called the roll on
22 reconsideration.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39.
2772
1 SENATOR VOLKER: I now move that
2 the Assembly Bill Number 5707-B be recommitted
3 to the Committee on Codes and my Senate bill be
4 restored to the order of Third Reading
5 Calendar.
6 THE PRESIDENT: The Assembly Bill
7 is recommitted.
8 SENATOR VOLKER: Madam President,
9 I now offer the following amendments.
10 THE PRESIDENT: The amendments
11 are received.
12 Senator Bruno.
13 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President,
14 I believe there are two resolutions at the desk
15 sponsored by Senator Roy Goodman. I would ask
16 that the titles be read and move their immediate
17 adoption.
18 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
19 will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
21 Goodman, Legislative Resolution honoring Lionel
22 Hampton upon the occasion of his 88th birthday.
23 Also, by Senator Goodman,
2773
1 Legislative Resolution honoring the Mount Sinai
2 Alumni Association on its Centennial
3 Anniversary.
4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Goodman.
5 SENATOR GOODMAN: Madam
6 President, if I may, I would like to just say a
7 brief word about the resolution -
8 THE PRESIDENT: Please do.
9 SENATOR GOODMAN: -- with respect
10 to Lionel Hampton. Madam President, in the his
11 tory of American culture, there are few people
12 who stand taller than Lionel Hampton, a remark
13 able jazz musician and composer who has been
14 honored by presidents and by countless cultural
15 leaders throughout the nation over many years.
16 Lionel Hampton, despite having
17 suffered two recent strokes, is celebrating his
18 88th birthday and has just appeared in a recent
19 concert in which his musical powers have clearly
20 been undiminished. He is a remarkable asset to
21 our country, and I recall very vividly my first
22 visit to the White House, under the presidency
23 of Ronald Reagan, occurred at the invitation of
2774
1 Lionel Hampton who was being honored at that
2 time by the President. A tent was set up on the
3 west lawn of the White House and celebrities
4 from all over the nation were gathered to honor
5 this remarkable human being.
6 He is a warm-hearted, genial and
7 delightful person. Through his initiatives,
8 housing has been developed in his native Harlem
9 for several under-privileged groups bearing the
10 name of Lionel Hampton Houses and the name of
11 his wife.
12 Madam President, there are few
13 people in America of whom we could be proud
14 than Lionel Hampton, and I'm delighted to be
15 able to mark his 88th birthday at this time in
16 this house.
17 Thank you.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
19 Senator Goodman.
20 The question is on the
21 resolutions for Lionel Hampton and the Mount
22 Sinai Alumni Association on its Centennial
23 Anniversary. All those in favor signify by
2775
1 saying aye.
2 (Response of "Aye".)
3 Opposed, nay.
4 (There was no response.)
5 The resolutions are adopted.
6 Senator Bruno, we have some
7 substitutions.
8 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we make the
9 substitutions.
10 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
11 will read.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese
13 moves to discharge from the Committee on
14 Elections, Assembly Bill 4512-A and substitute
15 it for the identical Senate Bill 5280.
16 Senator Lack moves to discharge
17 from the Committee on Judiciary, Assembly Bill
18 8911 and substitute it for the identical Senate
19 Bill 6427.
20 Senator Lack moves to discharge
21 from the Committee on Judiciary, Assembly Bill
22 5786 and substitute it for the identical Senate
23 Bill 6551.
2776
1 Senator Mendez moves to discharge
2 from the Committee on Labor, Assembly Bill
3 6741-B and substitute it for the identical
4 Senate Bill 4019-B.
5 THE PRESIDENT: The substitutions
6 are ordered.
7 Senator Bruno, are you ready for
8 the non-controversial calendar?
9 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Ms.
10 President. Can we now take up the non
11 controversial calendar.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
13 will read.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 282, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 3775-B, an
16 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation
17 to authorizing the court to require persons
18 failing to comply with an order of support.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
20 section, please.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
2777
1 (The Secretary called the roll.)
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
3 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
4 passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 420, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 5772,
7 an act to amend the General Business Law, in
8 relation to the conversion of oil home heating
9 systems.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
11 section, please.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
13 act shall take effect January 1st, 1997.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll.)
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
17 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
18 passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 441, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 4633-A, an
21 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules,
22 in relation to personal service by mail.
23 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
2778
1 section, please.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll.)
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
7 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
8 passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 447, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5104-A, an
11 act to amend the Environmental -
12 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside.
13 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside,
14 please.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 454, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 441-A, an
17 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
18 relation to authorizing distinctive license
19 plates for veterans of the Korean War.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
21 section, please.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
23 act shall take effect on the first day of April.
2779
1 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
4 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
5 passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 458, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 3493-A, an
8 act to amend the Military Law, in relation to
9 the deputy commander of the New York Army
10 National Guard.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Read the
12 last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
16 roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
20 is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 460, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 5844, an
23 act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to
2780
1 designating a portion of the state highway
2 system in the county of Richmond as the Korean
3 War Veterans Memorial Highway -- Parkway.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
13 is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 462, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 6067, an
16 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation to
17 the definition of county for purposes of local
18 conditional release commissions.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2781
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
5 is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 466, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 1465-B, an
8 act in relation to the real property tax
9 assessed by the town of Smithtown.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary will read the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
19 is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 467, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 1893-A, an
22 act to amend the County Law, in relation to the
23 financial responsibility of the defendant for
2782
1 cost of defense.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
4 bill aside.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 470, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3735, an
7 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in
8 relation to creating the town of Southampton
9 Industrial Development Agency.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary will read the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
15 a home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
16 will read the last section.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44, nays 1,
19 Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
21 is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 473, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 5822, an
2783
1 act to legalize, validate, ratify and confirm
2 certain proceedings and actions taken by the
3 town of Caroga.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
5 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
6 will read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 474, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5845, an
17 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to a
18 publicity fund in the town of Wilmington, Essex
19 County.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
21 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
22 will read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2784
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
3 roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll.)
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
7 is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 477, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 5966, an act
10 to legalize, validate, ratify and confirm the
11 acts of village board trustees in the village of
12 Catskill.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
14 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
15 will read the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll.)
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
23 is passed.
2785
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 523, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1092, an
3 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and the
4 Social Service Law, in relation to withholding
5 social services rents.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
8 bill aside.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 591, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 6596, an
11 act to amend Chapter 55 of the laws 1990...
12 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside for
13 one day.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
15 bill aside for the day at the request of the
16 sponsor.
17 Senator Bruno, that completes the
18 reading of the non-controversial calendar.
19 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
20 can we at this time take up the controversial
21 calendar.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Secretary will read the controversial calendar.
2786
1 THE SECRETARY: On page 26,
2 Calendar Number 447, Senate Print 5104-A, by
3 Senator Saland, an act to amend the
4 Environmental Conservation Law, in relation to
5 the composition of the Hudson River Greenway.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation,
7 please.
8 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay the bill
9 aside, please.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
11 bill aside.
12 SENATOR BRUNO: Temporarily.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
14 Temporarily.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 467, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 1893-A, an
17 act to amend the County Law, in relation to the
18 financial responsibility of the defendant for
19 cost of defense.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation,
21 please.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Volker, an explanation of Calendar Number 467
2787
1 has been asked for by the Acting Minority
2 Leader, Senator Paterson.
3 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President,
4 this is part of the civil responsibility of the
5 Codes Committee.
6 Several years ago, we passed
7 legislation, I think it's 722 (d) of the County
8 Law, that said that defendants who were
9 represented by paid-for attorneys, that is
10 attorneys who were assigned to them who were
11 able to -- who were found to be able to
12 contribute to their defense were enabled -- the
13 county was enabled to collect the money for the
14 attorneys.
15 One of the problems, however, was
16 -- with that statute was the awkward way -
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Volker, excuse me just a minute. We have an
19 awful lot of noise in the chamber. It's very
20 difficult for the members to hear the
21 explanation. If the members feel they have to
22 have a conversation, please take it out of the
23 chamber. I'll ask the staff members to find
2788
1 their places.
2 Thank you, Senator Volker, for
3 the interruption. I apologize.
4 SENATOR VOLKER: Essentially what
5 this bill would do would be to provide a
6 mechanism, a simpler mechanism to allow an
7 attorney who represented a defendant in an
8 assigned case to collect his fee if the person
9 obviously is financially able to -- to afford to
10 do that.
11 Presently, I gather what happens
12 is, in many places -- I say "many places"
13 because I assume from what I know where they do
14 collect these, and particularly in places in
15 upstate New York, the judges just order the
16 defendants to go do it, but I presume in New
17 York City and other places where the judges
18 generally don't even try to collect fees, there
19 has been more of a problem because the attorney
20 then has to go back into court and go through
21 the normal process to obtain the fees that he is
22 due, even when, as I say, it's obvious that the
23 person has the money -- now has the money to pay
2789
1 for his defense.
2 What this bill does is really
3 simplify the process so that you can use the
4 same statute, which is under 722 (d), to -- to
5 get enforcement, and you would do that in the
6 same manner as other money judgments are
7 obtained under CPLR 2222.
8 This does not change, as I
9 understand it, something that we have already
10 passed which says that if the person is able to
11 pay for his defense, that he should do it -- he
12 or she -- but what it does is give a better
13 mechanism to be able to collect that judgment,
14 that money, should it be found that there is a
15 person who has the money to do it.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Abate.
18 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, Mr.
19 President. Would Senator Volker yield to -
20 SENATOR VOLKER: Certainly.
21 SENATOR ABATE: -- a number of
22 questions.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2790
1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR ABATE: I appreciate the
3 intent of the bill, but I do not understand its
4 application.
5 SENATOR VOLKER: Right.
6 SENATOR ABATE: There are two
7 issues: One is the existing law does not allow
8 for summary judgment, and this puts, in effect,
9 that if the court, after a fact finding
10 procedure, finds the defendant is able to pay,
11 there can be a judgment where a party can then
12 move against that individual to collect the
13 money, is that correct?
14 SENATOR VOLKER: That's correct.
15 SENATOR ABATE: Now, in the bill
16 -- and I guess my concerns are I'm not sure how
17 it will work -- they list the parties that could
18 collect. One is a public defender.
19 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m.
20 SENATOR ABATE: In the case of a
21 public defender, you have a county attorney -
22 SENATOR VOLKER: Right.
23 SENATOR ABATE: -- who has the
2791
1 apparatus to pursue the collection.
2 SENATOR VOLKER: Right.
3 SENATOR ABATE: But if you have a
4 private legal aid bureau, or whereas in New York
5 City, where a Legal Aid Society represents most
6 of the indigent defendants in New York City, how
7 would they do this? They are now representing
8 the defendant -
9 SENATOR VOLKER: Right.
10 SENATOR ABATE: -- even
11 post-conviction. One arm of the Legal Aid
12 Society through the appeals bureau would have a
13 continuing relationship with that defendant.
14 How could they then collect that money? I mean,
15 doesn't that put them in an adversarial
16 position, and would they be able to keep the
17 money?
18 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, I think
19 the problem here is we know what's happening in
20 New York City. New York City doesn't want to
21 collect the money, and they don't want to be
22 bothered. The problem is the rest of the state,
23 generally speaking, is -- is -- where they find
2792
1 that there are defendants who can afford to pay
2 for their defense, most of the rest of the
3 state, in most cases, is attempting to collect
4 this money. In New York City, the judges,
5 frankly, don't want to be bothered.
6 What we're trying to do here is
7 -- I think the answer here is I don't see why,
8 under this bill, if the Legal Aid Society wants
9 to do it, that they can go ahead and get the
10 money, if it's available, and -- and use it.
11 There's nothing that says here that this money
12 has to go some place else that I'm aware of. I
13 would presume that they would be able to do it.
14 They'll probably feel
15 uncomfortable because the judges don't want to
16 do it in New York City. I mean, I guess the
17 answer is whether this bill, by the way, will
18 force them to do it any more. Frankly, I think
19 it's somewhat of an outrage that we have the
20 biggest city in the state with the biggest crime
21 problem, and we can't get the judiciary to act
22 in a way that could restore some of the money
23 that we pump into the court system, but be that
2793
1 as it may, as far as I can see, yeah, they would
2 be in a situation where, if they find -- if
3 there is a finding that this person can afford
4 his defense, then I would think they would be
5 able to, as part of the -- as part of the
6 action, they would be able to put in a -- try to
7 collect, and they would collect it in the normal
8 way that the county would do it to collect their
9 money. I don't see why not.
10 SENATOR ABATE: Mr. President,
11 would Senator Volker yield to another question?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Volker, do you continue to yield?
14 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Senator continues to yield.
17 SENATOR ABATE: But it's my
18 understanding that the Legal Aid Society should
19 not be assigned to a case if, in fact, the
20 defendant has an ability to pay for his defense
21 services.
22 SENATOR VOLKER: That's right.
23 SENATOR ABATE: So that should be
2794
1 a decision that's made initially at the time of
2 assignment.
3 SENATOR VOLKER: Right.
4 SENATOR ABATE: So that once the
5 Legal Aid Society is assigned to the case, there
6 is a statement -
7 SENATOR VOLKER: Right.
8 SENATOR ABATE: -- that 18-b -
9 because there's no conflict, 18-b would not be
10 assigned and the defendant would not be forced
11 to get his or her own attorney.
12 SENATOR VOLKER: Right.
13 SENATOR ABATE: So I guess my
14 concern is if, in fact, in the middle of a case
15 -- because there's an appeal ongoing -- the
16 judge decides there's some changed circumstances
17 because Legal Aid shouldn't have been assigned
18 to that case, does this law say that the Legal
19 Aid Society has to use its resources to try to
20 collect money from this defendant? Is this a
21 "may" or a "must"?
22 SENATOR VOLKER: No. I don't see
23 this -- as I understand it, this is enabling
2795
1 legislation. This permits. This doesn't say
2 that they have to.
3 Now, one of the -- by the way,
4 you bring up a point. If the Legal Aid Society
5 has a problem, they want more specific language,
6 I suppose we could do that, but that isn't what
7 really is the problem here. I know what the
8 problem is. The courts in New York City are
9 very uncomfortable with this sort of thing
10 because, as a matter of policy, they just do not
11 want to really enforce what -- what we have been
12 telling them to do, but I think the answer is,
13 no, no one is saying that this has to be done.
14 And, by the way, Senator, it's no
15 different to the Legal Aid Society than any
16 place else. Presumably when people are
17 assigned, the assumption is that they are not
18 able to get their own attorneys. What it -
19 where this would come in and where it's found
20 during the proceeding, or for some reason they
21 should come into some money or whatever reason,
22 they are able to pay. This doesn't mean you
23 have to do some huge investigation to find out,
2796
1 but if it is obvious for one reason or another,
2 and if it comes about that, for instance -- let
3 me give you a for instance of what sometimes
4 happens.
5 You have a case in court -- and
6 I've known this to happen -- where somebody is
7 in for a grand larceny or something, and during
8 the course of the case, the fellow gets his
9 assigned attorney. During the course of the
10 case, the evidence turns up the fact that the
11 guy has considerable money, wherever he got it
12 from -- it may be stolen, but wherever he got it
13 from, he has considerable money in a bank
14 account or whatever. Well, quite obviously,
15 this fellow would have the money to finance his
16 own attorney, but when he was initially -- the
17 attorney was initially assigned, that wasn't
18 known either to the attorney or to the county or
19 anybody else. So this would be a case where,
20 when a case is finally disposed of, that the
21 judge then would be able to -- with the
22 attorney's motion, to have the attorney
23 reimburse himself or get himself reimbursed for
2797
1 the normal costs of the case.
2 SENATOR ABATE: But -- would the
3 Senator yield to another question?
4 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Senator continues to yield.
7 SENATOR ABATE: I understand if
8 it's an 18-b case -
9 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m.
10 SENATOR ABATE: -- which is a
11 fee-generating case, they go back to the state,
12 get reimbursed for their expenses. The Legal
13 Aid Society, however, cannot take on fee
14 generating cases. So I don't understand if they
15 were to pursue a collection process, how they
16 could ever retain that money, and that's why the
17 bill is confusing. I have not had an
18 opportunity to talk to the Legal Aid Society. I
19 just saw the bill for the fist time a moment
20 ago.
21 SENATOR VOLKER: I really have
22 never heard. It is a practical matter. I'm
23 afraid probably what will happen here is Legal
2798
1 Aid probably won't pursue it.
2 SENATOR ABATE: I don't think
3 they can collect the money legally.
4 SENATOR VOLKER: I'm not so sure
5 about that. I'm not so sure they can. By the
6 way, you make a good point. If the Legal Aid
7 Society is really interested in that, I would be
8 more than happy to -- to look into that. We're
9 mainly concerned with -- and there are cases
10 other than the Legal Aid Society, by the way -
11 where people have been assigned and where there
12 could be, as I say, some money returned or
13 received or accepted, whatever, and the
14 awkwardness of the law, personally, makes it
15 very difficult to do, and -- but I certainly -
16 I have no problem with looking into that issue.
17 Frankly, that issue has never come up, that I'm
18 aware of, but I will certainly look into it just
19 to make sure.
20 My guess is that the Legal Aid
21 Society probably really doesn't want to get into
22 it, and there's nothing that actually says that
23 they have to unless a judge, in effect, orders
2799
1 them to, I suppose, which would be very unlikely
2 since it almost never happens in New York City
3 anyways.
4 SENATOR ABATE: Senator, I would
5 appreciate if you could look, because I don't
6 know what the Legal Aid Society's position is.
7 One, could they even collect that? If they
8 failed to collect, what would be the
9 implications?
10 I would say that if the Legal Aid
11 Society were here, they might say that most of
12 the clients they do represent are indigent. To
13 go after them and have a needless process, it
14 goes back into some other coffers. Not only do
15 you have conflict issues, but you have some
16 other kinds of cumbersome financial issues, and
17 I'm afraid that this will be seen from budgeters
18 -- all due respect from people who have worked
19 in Budget -- budgeters is, "Oh, now, this is an
20 opportunity for people like the Legal Aid
21 Society to collect revenue", but it's really a
22 false revenue collection scheme and thereby will
23 reduce state revenues for these organizations.
2800
1 So I guess I -- I would like to
2 see what would be the real implication of that
3 law, the practical application of it.
4 SENATOR VOLKER: I understand.
5 Let me just say that in looking, I doubt that
6 this would have much of an impact at all on
7 Legal Aid. Remember, we're amending the County
8 Law here, and although the County Law, I guess
9 could be -- it would be a stretch to apply it
10 directly to -- to the New York City courts, I
11 think, but you brought up a good point here, and
12 that is that -- and although this could still
13 apply to New York City indirectly, but you make
14 a point that it's probably something we should
15 look at, not from the standpoint necessarily of
16 trying to collect money or anything like that.
17 If we really wanted to collect money, by the
18 way, you would try to make this mandatory, and I
19 don't know how you would do that.
20 SENATOR ABATE: Right.
21 SENATOR VOLKER: And I wouldn't
22 participate in that because I think that would
23 be a big mistake, but I do think that we have to
2801
1 find, wherever way we can, because there are
2 just a lot of judges who don't want to take the
3 time and get into this sort of thing when, in
4 reality, in all honesty, there are some people
5 with a lot of money that they find out during
6 the proceedings, and it seems totally unjust
7 that, not only does assigned attorneys and as
8 you know, the counties, whatever, have to suffer
9 the loss when there's somebody who can actually
10 afford it, but we'll certainly look into that.
11 In fact, I will -- we will even talk to the
12 Legal Aid Society and let them research it for
13 us, okay?
14 SENATOR ABATE: Okay. Thank you.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Leichter.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
18 President. If Senator Volker would yield.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Volker, do you yield to Senator Leichter? The
21 Senator yields.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
23 think you've left some inferences on the floor
2802
1 that judges in New York City are unwilling to
2 pursue this law, and so on, and I don't think
3 that's fair. I don't think it's correct, and
4 then later on in your discourse with Senator
5 Abate, you said you're not even sure that the
6 County Law applies to New York City.
7 SENATOR VOLKER: M-m h-m-m.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm not sure
9 it does either. So it may well be that this law
10 doesn't even apply to New York City.
11 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, let me
12 say, first of all, you may think my reference to
13 New York City is unfair, but I don't agree with
14 you at all. The rest of the state is dealing
15 with the issue of finding money, and I'm talking
16 specifically about this section that we're
17 amending now. It is very clear that New York
18 City, as well as the rest of the state, has been
19 given the power to collect money from people who
20 initially are thought to be indigent or, in
21 fact, from people who have committed crimes and
22 who have the money to pay for their defense.
23 The rest of the state, generally
2803
1 speaking -- not entirely, but generally speaking
2 -- has complied and has been collecting some of
3 that money. New York City -- and then we have
4 been told by some of the judges personally,
5 they're really not interested in that, because
6 they think most of the people are indigent.
7 Most of the people don't have any money, and
8 it's just not worth it for them to be bothered
9 with that.
10 Well, you know -- so I'm not
11 saying this -- I'm not critical of parts of the
12 system, except to say that it's pretty clear
13 this is going on, and I -- we know it. It's
14 been -- it's been something that we have been
15 asked, in fact, by some groups to make it
16 mandatory, and we have been balking at doing
17 that, but I'm not saying this without some, not
18 only knowledge, but the facts of the case. So I
19 know there is, you know, great sympathy for some
20 of these things, but I think the difficulty is
21 that the taxpayers, I think, are suffering in
22 the meantime.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
2804
1 if Senator Volker would continue to yield.
2 With all due respect, Senator
3 Volker, I must say I could not understand your
4 answer. Let me see if we can clarify this so
5 that I can understand it.
6 One, does the County Law apply to
7 the city of New York?
8 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator -
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes or no?
10 SENATOR VOLKER: The answer is it
11 could in certain cases, but I'm not sure it
12 would in this case. What I'm trying to say to
13 you, Senator, is she -- Senator Abate asked a
14 question about enforcement, and I'm telling you
15 that we will certainly be willing to clarify the
16 issue of application to the Legal Aid Society -
17 which, by the way, I doubt this would probably
18 apply to them, but what I was saying to you is I
19 do think, though, that this is to stimulate
20 action on the situation where a defendant, in a
21 case, turns out to have the money to pay for his
22 defense.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
2805
1 would Senator Volker continue to yield?
2 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Senator continues to yield.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, could
6 you tell us, do the judges in the city of New
7 York presently have the authority to charge
8 defendants who it is shown have the money -
9 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- and where
11 the defense was conducted at the public expense,
12 to have those defendants pay, and if they have
13 that authority, would you tell us under what
14 provision of the law, if you know.
15 SENATOR VOLKER: Senator, the
16 provision of the law was passed some years ago.
17 I don't have it. The whole state now has the
18 authority, but the issue is that -- that it has
19 not been -- it has not been used in New York
20 City, to my knowledge, to any extent hardly at
21 all, where it has been used in the rest of the
22 state.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
2806
1 if Senator Volker would continue to yield.
2 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Are you then
4 saying there is a provision in law, other than
5 the County Law?
6 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: And you say
8 there is such a provision -
9 SENATOR VOLKER: Right.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- that
11 applies in the city of New York. Now, you also
12 say New York City judges have been unwilling to
13 apply that provision of the law.
14 Senator, isn't it a fact that the
15 judges do not, on their own motion, on their own
16 instigation, bring a proceeding to make a
17 defendant pay, that that has to be brought by a
18 prosecutor; it has to be brought -- somebody has
19 to bring the issue to the judge.
20 SENATOR VOLKER: No, that's not
21 -- the way it -- the judge is -- actually the
22 court can investigate. In fact, the court is
23 aware -- in a number of cases, they are made
2807
1 aware -- the court can actually order that the
2 money be paid over. There's no process that's
3 been set up in New York City where they do that,
4 but it can be done. There's no question it can
5 be done.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me.
7 Senator Volker, I have difficulty understanding
8 it. You're saying a judge, on his very own, can
9 order an investigation if he has reason to
10 believe or to think that a defendant who's being
11 defended at the public expense has the assets?
12 SENATOR VOLKER: Absolutely.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Do you
14 know any instance or any case in New York City
15 where a judge, having that information, refused
16 to do something?
17 SENATOR VOLKER: The problem is
18 we don't have -- we have virtually no indication
19 that there has been any attempt to collect any
20 money. So, no, I don't really have any -- all I
21 know is that the rest of the state, in cases -
22 in defense cases, has been collecting some money
23 and as far as I know, there hasn't been
2808
1 virtually -- there hasn't been anything in New
2 York that I'm aware of.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
4 Volker, would you be good enough to continue to
5 yield?
6 SENATOR VOLKER: Sure.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Could you tell
8 us how much has been collected in counties other
9 than New York City, whether by a year or two
10 years, five years?
11 SENATOR VOLKER: I can't. I'm
12 not -- I just know that -- and I'm not trying to
13 tell you that there s been a lot of money
14 collected, but I am telling you that -- I can
15 tell you that there has been money collected
16 but, to my knowledge, virtually nothing has been
17 collected in the City.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. Mr.
19 President, on the bill, please.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Leichter, on the bill.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: I have no
23 problem with the bill, but I think -- Senator, I
2809
1 think there was some gratuitous comments made
2 about judges in New York City and in New York
3 City generally which, frankly, I think were
4 unfounded and uncalled for, and one, you say
5 that judges in New York City have this power.
6 It apparently is not under the County Law, but
7 where there may be some instances where a judge
8 having some suspicions or reason to suspect that
9 a defendant may have some funds. Most of the
10 time judges don't know this. Somebody's got to
11 bring it to their attention. So it's up either
12 to the prosecutor or Legal Aid or whoever is
13 doing the defense, to call this to the judge's
14 attention.
15 Thirdly, this probably arises in
16 such a minutia of cases, and I can well
17 understand both the prosecutor or defense
18 counsel or the judge saying that the cost, on a
19 cost-effective basis, to now hold a hearing -
20 because, obviously, you can't just say, "You
21 have money. You've got to pay." You've got to
22 have a hearing. You've got to investigate. The
23 person's got a right to be defended at their
2810
1 hearing.
2 So I question, one, whether this
3 is really a very cost-effective method except in
4 maybe very minor cases. When I say "minor
5 cases", maybe one in 10,000, 100,000, maybe less
6 than that. That's why I think it was very
7 pertinent, Senator, to know from you how much
8 money has been collected outside of New York
9 City. I would suspect that it is fair -- a
10 very, very, very small amount and that what
11 we're talking about is not financially
12 significant at all, either to the counties or to
13 the state.
14 So I just regret the comments
15 about New York City judges, someone implying
16 that they're not doing the job that other judges
17 are doing throughout the state. I don't think
18 that's right. I don't think it's fair. I don't
19 think you have any facts or any information that
20 would show that. If you do, then that's
21 certainly something to call to the Office of
22 Court Administration, but I just think it's an
23 unnecessary comment that was made in regard to
2811
1 what is really just a technical bill. A judge,
2 instead of putting an order, he'll put in a
3 judgment, and that's fine, where the facts are
4 justified, but I think that New York City
5 judges, to my experience, work extremely hard.
6 They are as competent, they obey the laws of the
7 state of New York as much as judges in Erie
8 County or anywhere else, and we shouldn't make
9 these sort of comments.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
11 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
12 (There was no response.)
13 Hearing none, the Secretary will
14 read the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
16 act shall take effect on the first day of
17 November.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll.)
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
22 the results when tabulated. Would those in the
23 negative please raise their hands one more
2812
1 time. Announce the results.
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 54.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
4 is passed.
5 The Secretary will continue to
6 call the controversial calendar.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 523, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1092, an
9 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law and the
10 Social Services Law, in relation to withholding
11 social services rents.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Farley, an explanation of Calendar Number 523
15 has been asked for by Senator Paterson.
16 SENATOR FARLEY: Senator
17 Paterson. Senator, this is a bill that passed,
18 I think -- let me see. I'll give you the vote
19 on it last year.
20 SENATOR RATH: 54 to 5.
21 SENATOR FARLEY: 54 to 5. Thank
22 you.
23 It permits the option -- option
2813
1 of withholding social service rent payments to
2 landlords who are delinquent in the payment of
3 the real property taxes.
4 Now, currently under social
5 services law, landlords who have welfare
6 recipients as tenants receive the rental
7 payments directly from the county or Department
8 of Social Services. Problems have developed
9 when some of these same landlords are delinquent
10 in the payment of the real property taxes.
11 Specifically, some counties are actually sending
12 Department of Social Services checks to
13 landlords when these individuals are failing to
14 meet their obligations to pay their property
15 taxes. This bill would correct this inequity.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Paterson.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
19 much, Mr. President.
20 If Senator Farley would yield for
21 a question.
22 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2814
1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator,
3 earlier Senator Abate said to Senator Volker, "I
4 understand the intent, but I don't understand
5 the application." I think that would connote my
6 feelings about this particular bill. There
7 certainly would be an interest in recovering
8 back taxes from landlords who have been
9 delinquent and certainly to punish them for not
10 continuing to meet their obligations.
11 However, my chagrin about this
12 particular bill is that we wind up punishing the
13 tenants as well as the landlords and, although
14 the tenants are clients of social services,
15 other than any misfeasance on their part with
16 respect to social services, I don't see any
17 reason to unduly penalize them.
18 Would it not be correct that when
19 landlords realize that the social services
20 payment for rent will be withhold from them
21 pending the payment of back taxes, that they
22 would then exercise discretion in who they would
23 choose in the tenancy, creating what would in a
2815
1 sense be an economic veil, so that by not
2 renting to any clients of social services, they
3 could never be penalized for doing so?
4 SENATOR FARLEY: Okay. Let me
5 speak to you a little bit more of the bill
6 through which you may pick up the flavor and
7 like it a little bit better. Incidentally, the
8 city of New York is excluded from this
9 legislation.
10 Number two, this bill would
11 correct -- or create a new situation. Currently
12 under the bill, the social services -
13 Subdivision 2 of the Social Services Law gives
14 public welfare officials the power to withhold
15 rents to landlords if it is found that the
16 living conditions of the dwellings are not in
17 compliance with the building codes.
18 So, you know, to mention that
19 when you say you're punishing the -- the tenant,
20 they're not permitted to evict a tenant under
21 this legislation whose rents are being held, and
22 if the living conditions deteriorate, social
23 services also have action against the landlord.
2816
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Paterson.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Does the
4 legislation -- if the Senator would continue to
5 yield.
6 SENATOR FARLEY: Yep.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Does the
8 legislation include any other criteria that
9 would prevent the landlord from renewing the
10 lease when this has actually occurred? In other
11 words -
12 SENATOR FARLEY: I know what
13 you're -- I know what you're saying, that they
14 might not want to renew the lease.
15 Incidentally, as I said, it doesn't apply to the
16 city of New York, and the counties are very
17 supportive of this. I don't see anything in the
18 bill that talks about the lease. Nope. It just
19 says that they will not be able to evict them
20 and, of course, if they do anything to -- do
21 anything to deteriorate the living conditions.
22 My dear friend and supporter,
23 Senator Rath, when she was in the -- when she
2817
1 was in the county government, was very strong in
2 support of this bill, and I -- I would like to
3 almost yield to her who knows more about it than
4 I do, about the realities of this problem,
5 particularly in upstate New York.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson.
8 SENATOR FARLEY: I was going to
9 yield my time.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
11 I yield to Senator Rath.
12 SENATOR RATH: Thank you, Senator
13 Farley, Senator Paterson.
14 Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Rath.
17 SENATOR RATH: There's a saying
18 in government/politics that what goes around
19 comes around, and the first time I was listening
20 to Senator Farley debate the bill on the floor,
21 I thought, This sounds so familiar, and as I had
22 looked at it earlier, I thought, I must read
23 this more carefully, and as we've talked about
2818
1 it since, it's something that we started in Erie
2 County about 12 years ago called Project
3 Intercept, and what we were doing was just
4 exactly what Senator Farley picked up on on the
5 state level, that we hoped in those days when I
6 was a county legislator, would be picked up on
7 the state level and, indeed, passed by both
8 houses and signed by the Governor, because we
9 had it up and running on a county level for
10 about a month, and in that time, we collected
11 between 4- and $500,000 of back taxes, which was
12 very, very welcome money to a county, to any
13 county who is -- all counties are always
14 strapped for dollars, but particularly back
15 taxes which is something that is owed, and we
16 found we couldn't carry it on any further
17 because there was not state law that made it
18 possible for us to carry forward with Project
19 Intercept, and so we alerted everyone we could
20 in state government and hoped that someone would
21 pick it up eventually, and I kind of almost
22 forgot about it, until I found that Senator
23 Farley was carrying my bill which I found my
2819
1 first year here in the chambers.
2 There were some issues that we
3 got into with the city of Buffalo, which were
4 rather interesting that might be of some
5 interest for a subsequent piece of legislation,
6 and it had to do with the conditions of the
7 housing, which we started to get into and
8 started to address but, again, we found we
9 couldn't carry it forward, but that was an
10 ancillary concern.
11 The real concern here was the
12 people who were not paying their taxes and who,
13 by the way, did not want their names published,
14 nor did not want TV cameras or newspapers
15 calling to find out why they hadn't paid their
16 back taxes, and frankly, there were some very
17 outstanding citizens who owned a lot of property
18 that they should have been paying taxes on long
19 since who came forward and just wrote out a
20 check so that they would not be embarrassed by
21 the fact they had not paid their county taxes on
22 these properties.
23 So for all the right reasons, I
2820
1 think that this is something we should move
2 forward with and hope that the Assembly will
3 carry forward with it also because it's a way
4 that we can get some dollars that should be in
5 the hands of the counties, back into the hands
6 of the counties without too much difficulty.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
8 me, Senator Rath.
9 Senator Onorato, why do you
10 rise?
11 SENATOR ONORATO: Yes. I would
12 like, whichever person would like, Senator Rath
13 or Senator Farley, to yield to a question on
14 this.
15 SENATOR RATH: Senator Farley.
16 SENATOR ONORATO: Senator -
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Onorato, excuse me just a second. Senator
19 Paterson did have the floor. I don't know if he
20 just yielded the floor -- he asked Senator
21 Farley a question to Senator Rath, in response
22 to asking a question -- or answering the
23 question or whether he yielded the floor
2821
1 entirely. So let me ask -
2 SENATOR FARLEY: If he prefers to
3 ask Senator Paterson a question -
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Farley, I'm not recognizing you, until I hear
6 Senator Paterson tell me whether or not he has
7 yielded the floor or not.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
9 I have been losing ground and floor ever since I
10 came to this chamber. A few more steps back
11 won't hurt. I yield everything to whoever would
12 like to speak at this time.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I thought
14 you were inspired two days ago when you won one,
15 Senator Paterson, but in any case, Senator
16 Onorato, Senator Rath yields.
17 SENATOR ONORATO: Thank you.
18 Senator -
19 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, I'm paying
20 attention.
21 SENATOR ONORATO: -- my question
22 is this: I don't have too much problem with the
23 concept of the bill. My only concern is if the
2822
1 dwelling is inhabited by several -- three or
2 four people who are receiving social services
3 and their rents are then diverted to the county
4 for back taxes and there's no money left to pay
5 for heating of the unit or to pay for the common
6 ground electricity to keep a boiler running, how
7 will those bills be paid at such a time if the
8 landlord is not receiving this rent? Will the
9 town take it upon themselves to divert some of
10 that money to make sure that the domicile is to
11 remain habitable for the tenants?
12 SENATOR FARLEY: Social Services
13 already has -- has the power to -- to enforce
14 the habitability of the property, and let me
15 just say this: I think what you're saying is if
16 the tenant does not have the money to pay the
17 heat because they have taken the rent money -- I
18 mean, were they using the rent money to pay the
19 heat in your situation? I don't quite follow
20 what you're saying.
21 SENATOR ONORATO: What I'm asking
22 you is -- maybe for clarification -- if the
23 landlord is providing all of these services all
2823
1 along but is simply not paying his taxes, he's
2 delinquent. Okay. Now the operation of the
3 home is continuing. Now, you take the rent
4 money away from them, who is going to pay for
5 the fuel to keep the house warm -
6 SENATOR FARLEY: The landlord.
7 SENATOR ONORATO: -- and the
8 electricity?
9 SENATOR FARLEY: The landlord is
10 going to pay for it.
11 SENATOR ONORATO: How is he going
12 to pay for it if he doesn't have the rent?
13 SENATOR FARLEY: That's his
14 problem. That's his problem and duty as a
15 landlord.
16 Let me just say this, Senator
17 Onorato, on the bill, if I may. You know, my
18 experience in local government, particularly
19 landlords that have housing that is substandard,
20 if you will, they are very, very hard to get
21 their attention. They can totally ignore
22 government, elected officials, anybody getting
23 after them to be good citizens, but I'll tell
2824
1 you what. When you withhold the rent from them,
2 it really gets their attention, and then they
3 start doing such things as paying their taxes
4 and keeping their place in proper repair and a
5 few other things.
6 SENATOR ONORATO: Wouldn't it
7 perhaps be a little bit more equitable then, if
8 you're going to withhold rent, withhold all
9 rent, whether it's from a party receiving social
10 services benefits or a regular tenant living in
11 the building. Why do you make a distinction
12 between someone receiving social services, and
13 the person who's making the social services may
14 be, in fact, paying the rent to the landlord.
15 So where is the distinction?
16 SENATOR FARLEY: The distinction
17 is this: The county is paying the rent to that
18 landlord, in essence, through social services.
19 The county is the one that is getting burned, if
20 you will, by the landlord not paying the taxes.
21 So the county consequently has -- is able to
22 reach in and stop this rent from going to the
23 landlord who's delinquent in his taxes. In the
2825
1 situation where there is a non-social services
2 person, we have no right to withhold their
3 rent. The rent doesn't go through us, speaking
4 from the county's point of view.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Secretary will read the last section.
7 Excuse me. Senator Paterson.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
9 it would be all right if I come back.
10 If Senator Farley would please
11 yield for a couple more questions.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Farley, do you yield?
14 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Senator yields.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, what
18 about the cases where social services is leaving
19 it up to the tenant to pay the rent, where
20 there's monies provided and then the tenant pays
21 from the resources that Social Security provides
22 -- I mean, social services provides?
23 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, I'm not
2826
1 just sure -- could social services -- could you
2 answer that? We have a county executive here -
3 or at least a member of the county government, I
4 think that knows the answer to that better than
5 I.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Rath.
8 SENATOR RATH: My recollection is
9 that these are vouchered payments that are -
10 that are coming through the county system and
11 are very easy to pick through and get those for
12 the delinquent property owners. It's not -
13 it's not the ones that are sent directly to the
14 clients. It's the ones that are vouchered.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Paterson.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator,
18 that's exactly what I want to know. Where the
19 payment is not direct, where there is some sort
20 of a voucher and the social service agency is
21 leaving it up to the tenant to -
22 SENATOR RATH: This law, in my
23 recollection of it -- and I have not -- I was
2827
1 just about to start through the big book on it
2 -- my recollection is that these are vouchered
3 payments. These are vouchered rent payments
4 that actually have to be picked up at one office
5 of the county by the sheriff's department and
6 carried over to the tax/finance office of the
7 county. It's -- it was clear that we got into
8 trouble with this in the county because of
9 living standards actually, which is -- what I
10 think was really what Senator Onorato's question
11 was and why we couldn't work it through with the
12 city of Buffalo as we proceeded into it, because
13 we could not go into that level of discussion
14 because these were vouchered. These were on the
15 voucher system.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
17 if Senator Rath would yield.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Paterson.
20 SENATOR RATH: Sure.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Rath,
22 then, therefore, it doesn't apply to those
23 tenants who make the payments themselves who are
2828
1 being provided the money from social services.
2 It only applies to -
3 SENATOR RATH: I think Senator
4 Farley is more familiar with the specifics of
5 the way it was written at the state. Mine is a
6 county recollection.
7 SENATOR FARLEY: It's my
8 understanding -- and this is not my area of
9 expertise. It's my understanding that different
10 counties have different ways of doing it. Some
11 pay the tenant directly and some pay the
12 landlord. This is an optional bill with
13 counties. I would presume that counties that
14 give the money to the tenant would not opt into
15 this -- would not care to opt into this
16 legislation, but a county that pays the landlord
17 directly -- and it varies from county to county,
18 I am told -- would be willing. This came from
19 Fulton County. It was a request of one of my
20 counties, and some counties are very interested
21 in participating in this legislation.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Paterson.
2829
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
2 would the firm of Rath and Farley yield for one
3 last question?
4 SENATOR FARLEY: One last
5 question.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The firm
7 yields.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: In the
9 situation that existed in Erie County where
10 $400,000 was recovered over a period of time and
11 then it was advised that state legislation would
12 have to occur for this process to continue
13 further, do you have any record or any
14 information that the withholding of the rent
15 created a chilling effect such that clients of
16 social services experienced discrimination as
17 they sought housing in that area?
18 SENATOR RATH: Senator Padavan,
19 inasmuch as we -
20 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm Senator
21 Paterson.
22 SENATOR RATH: Paterson -
23 inasmuch as we actually had this up and running
2830
1 in Erie County, I can tell you that the people
2 who were living in the housing that had not been
3 -- the rent had not -- or the taxes had not
4 been taken care of were delighted that we were
5 getting the owners brought up and brought in so
6 that they would pay their taxes, because then
7 maybe they would feel responsible for some of
8 the other things that were not correct in the
9 housing and, no, there was no chilling effect on
10 any of the social service clients who lived in
11 the housing. They were, frankly, glad because
12 they didn't like those landlords anyway, because
13 these were landlords who were not paying their
14 county property taxes for all that period of
15 time. There were a lot of other things that
16 weren't happening to their property and, again,
17 this was where we got into it with the city of
18 Buffalo because they immediately wanted to get
19 some of the dollars withheld so that we could
20 push on the standards level of the housing
21 which, as I said, was an ancillary issue, and
22 had we gotten through this much of it, then we
23 could have gone to the next part of it and
2831
1 worked it out with the comptroller in the city
2 of Buffalo who was then a councilman. He's now
3 the comptroller in the city of Buffalo, but
4 you're right on the right track but, no, there
5 was no chilling effect. People were delighted.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
9 much, Mr. President, and thank the Senators for
10 their kind answers to the questions, and let me
11 make this very clear on the bill.
12 We are particularly delighted as
13 well that this attempt is being made to force
14 individuals who aren't paying their taxes to pay
15 their taxes because, as Senator Rath points out,
16 there probably is some association between their
17 non-compliance with tax regulations and also
18 their failure to provide very important services
19 to their tenants, and this probably encourages
20 greater responsibility.
21 I would just like to caution all
22 the members here that I would assume that a
23 landlord that has already become delinquent on
2832
1 taxes is somewhat aware of those processes that
2 would be used to, in effect, try to enforce the
3 payment of such funds, and that by not renting
4 to clients on social services, this avoids the
5 problem entirely. As I said earlier, it sets up
6 kind of an economic veil in which the local
7 government, the county, cannot attack the
8 landlord because the private tenants are not
9 involved in the situation. Therefore, the
10 regular tenant is favored over the social
11 service tenant because the social service tenant
12 has, with their renting, a kind of a device by
13 which the government can move against the
14 landlord for non-payment of taxes.
15 It's a good idea and it's a good
16 system. I just want to make sure that
17 individuals who the state has determined that we
18 want to protect by providing them with these
19 services are not discriminated against as they
20 seek housing in these areas.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Secretary will read the -
23 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
2833
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Gold.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Would Senator
4 Farley yield to just -
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Farley, do you yield to a question?
7 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Senator yields.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, maybe
11 it's been said but I just want to clarify it for
12 myself. Assuming the money is paid for the
13 taxes, it doesn't come to the tenant, is there
14 anything built into this which gives the tenant
15 a defense in a non-payment action against the
16 landlord; is that covered? I know last year
17 there was a memo and we had that concern, and I
18 voted against it last year. I'm not so sure I
19 want to do that this year. I would like to be
20 able to support it.
21 SENATOR FARLEY: I don't fully
22 understand your question. Is there any
23 defense -
2834
1 SENATOR GOLD: In other words,
2 does the -- the rent now comes to the tenant.
3 The tenant pays the landlord. Under your
4 bill -
5 SENATOR FARLEY: Wait a second.
6 No, it's vouchered.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Under your bill -
8 Senator -- Senator -- Senator, under your bill
9 -- under your bill, the money is just never
10 going to reach the landlord's hand, am I
11 correct?
12 SENATOR FARLEY: Senator Gold,
13 counties pay in different ways. Different
14 counties choose different ways. Some pay the
15 tenant directly. Some pay the landlord.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, that's
17 not my problem. What I'm trying to say to you
18 is that what your bill will do is so the money
19 will not go to the landlord, it goes to pay the
20 taxes, am I correct?
21 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes.
22 SENATOR GOLD: That's the point
23 of it.
2835
1 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Now, the landlord
3 brings a non-payment action against the tenant.
4 I just want to know whether you've made any
5 provision that the tenant has a defense for
6 non-payment. That is all I'm asking you. I'm
7 not saying that your idea is a bad one. I'm
8 just saying that there ought to be a defense for
9 the tenant, and that was in last year's memo in
10 opposition which I -- if it's covered, then I'm
11 comfortable. I just want to -
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lines 15 and
13 16.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Your counsel is
15 telling me it's lines 15 and 16.
16 SENATOR FARLEY: That's not in
17 the bill -- wait a second.
18 SENATOR GOLD: All right. Your
19 counsel, one of the brightest people I've met,
20 Senator Leichter, points out on page 1, 15 and
21 16. You feel that covers it, Senator?
22 All right. I want to thank you
23 and your counsel. I appreciate the answer.
2836
1 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you,
2 Senator Leichter.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Abate, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR FARLEY: I'm deeply in
6 your debt.
7 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. Mr.
8 President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Why do
10 you rise?
11 SENATOR ABATE: Would Senator
12 Farley yield to a question?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Farley, do you yield to Senator Abate?
15 SENATOR FARLEY: I certainly
16 will.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Senator yields.
19 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you,
20 Senator.
21 I'm concerned about the interplay
22 of this proposed legislation, and Section 143
23 (b) of the Spiegel Act -- Senator, are you aware
2837
1 of that? I can tell you. Let me -- I just
2 learned about the Spiegel Act. Apparently that
3 gives the authority to local social services
4 commissioners -- okay. I can just -- let me
5 just tell you exactly what it says. It says it
6 gives local social services commissioners the
7 authority to withhold shelter payments that
8 would normally go directly to the landlord.
9 Instead of those shelter payments going to the
10 landlord, they go to cure building and
11 maintenance code violations. Its ability -- if
12 there is a building that's not safe and the
13 landlord has been cited for a number of, either
14 fire violations, the social services
15 commissioner can be directed -
16 SENATOR FARLEY: Is that the city
17 of New York?
18 SENATOR ABATE: I think that's
19 statewide. I believe it's statewide. I'm not
20 familiar with this. This was brought to my
21 attention.
22 So I guess the question is how
23 would this work? There's only one pool of
2838
1 money. We would now be competing against the
2 social services commissioner's ability to take
3 those -- and we're dealing with the same
4 population. We're dealing with tenants on
5 public assistance. My concern is would this
6 legislation -- would this affect the ability of
7 the social services commissioner to divert
8 needed monies to make buildings habitable?
9 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, I don't
10 think so because, to be honest with you, I'm not
11 familiar with what your -- what is this called?
12 SENATOR ABATE: It is -
13 SENATOR FARLEY: It's kind of
14 noisy in here. You're going to have to speak
15 up. There's some sort of a demonstration going
16 on.
17 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. It is
18 Section 143 (b) of the Social Services Law and
19 it's called the Spiegel Act, and what it is is
20 just withholding shelter payments that would
21 normally go to public assistance recipients, the
22 very recipients that you discuss in your bill,
23 and instead of it going to the landlord, it goes
2839
1 to remedy defects in the building. So what
2 we'll have here is -- if your legislation
3 passes, this will be somewhat in conflict.
4 SENATOR FARLEY: I guess it is
5 the same pool but, again, the city of New York
6 is exempted under this bill of mine.
7 SENATOR ABATE: Right. But what
8 impact would that have with tenants around the
9 state? There certainly are landlords -
10 SENATOR FARLEY: I think it would
11 be going right out of the same pool. Once the
12 taxes are paid, I would presume that -- you
13 know, Social Services works very close with the
14 county. It's one of the -- it's probably the
15 greatest expenditure that the county has, and
16 they're very gravely concerned with non-payment
17 of taxes, and once they get the tax money, I
18 don't know which one would take priority, but
19 that's up to the county government. I think
20 that they would -- but I would presume that -
21 your point is well taken -- it is coming out of
22 the same pool of money.
23 SENATOR ABATE: Would you
2840
1 consider -
2 SENATOR FARLEY: Which I think is
3 worthwhile.
4 SENATOR ABATE: Would the Senator
5 yield to another question?
6 SENATOR FARLEY: Certainly.
7 SENATOR ABATE: Would you
8 consider looking into this issue because, if a
9 building has some egregious building and fire
10 code violation, shouldn't the first order of the
11 day be to use those dollars to remedy -
12 SENATOR FARLEY: No question.
13 SENATOR ABATE: But the bill is
14 silent on this issue, and perhaps you can look
15 at if there are two needs, the county maybe
16 should give preference, if it is a question of
17 health and safety, to compliance with the
18 Spiegel Act.
19 SENATOR FARLEY: Okay. Without
20 this legislation, Social Services -- Social
21 Services gives the public welfare officials the
22 power to withhold rents to landlords that they
23 found that the living conditions are not in
2841
1 compliance with the code. They already have
2 that. They don't have the power now to withhold
3 the rent if the taxes are not paid.
4 SENATOR ABATE: Well, I think
5 this is an issue. I think this is another
6 withholding mechanism, and I think it's worthy
7 of looking at how they interface with each
8 other.
9 No further questions.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary will read the last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
13 act shall take effect on the 90th day.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Gold to explain his vote.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, just very
21 briefly. Senator Farley -- Senator Farley, I
22 want you to know that I am changing my vote this
23 year. I voted no last year and I'm going to
2842
1 vote for it, and I'm going to vote for it
2 because you had the guts today to say something
3 that I have been waiting to hear a Republican
4 say in this house for 25 years, and that is that
5 sometimes the only way you can get a landlord's
6 attention is by withholding rent.
7 The Tenants Associations of the
8 city of New York have been trying to convince
9 your party of that for the 25 years I'm here.
10 So, perhaps next time when we have these issues
11 where we talk about the rights of tenants in the
12 city of New York, I can quote the law according
13 to Farley and we'll get your support.
14 I vote yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
16 the results.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Leichter, to explain his vote.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
21 President. I want to explain why I'm going to
22 vote against this bill, and I understand there's
23 some rationale for trying to get to the counties
2843
1 money that is due in taxes, but I think you have
2 two problems with the bill.
3 One is that you are impairing a
4 tenant's defense or tenant's mechanism of trying
5 to get a landlord to provide services by seeing
6 that that rent money is paid directly to the
7 county, because it -- maybe there's been a
8 violation of the warranty of habitability and
9 the tenant is actually entitled to get some of
10 that rent money because the tenant has had to
11 pay, for instance, for fuel to heat the
12 building, but the real problem -- that's a
13 technical objection, but the real problem is
14 that a building of this sort, you probably have
15 a landlord that's in difficulty. Either he's
16 extremely callous or more likely he's in
17 financial difficulty, and he's going to need
18 that rent money to provide service.
19 Now, the money is going to the
20 county. That's important to some extent, but it
21 may well mean that he's not going to be able to
22 pay for fuel, that you're then going to have
23 tenants that have no services. The county is
2844
1 then going to be burdened of taking over the
2 services in the building, and so on. So that
3 while there's a logical basis for this bill, I
4 think, as a practical matter, it doesn't work.
5 I'm going to vote in the
6 negative.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
8 the results.
9 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
10 the negative on Calendar Number 523 are Senators
11 Abate, Connor, Lachman, Markowitz, Stavisky.
12 Ayes 51 -- also, Senator Montgomery and Senator
13 Paterson. Ayes 50, nays 7. Also, Senator
14 Smith.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
16 the results.
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49, nays 8.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
19 is passed.
20 Senator Skelos.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you take
22 up Calendar Number 447, by Senator Saland.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2845
1 Secretary will read.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 447, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5104-A, an
4 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law,
5 in relation to the composition of the Hudson
6 River Valley Greenway.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect on the 30th day.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 Senator Skelos, that completes
18 the controversial calendar.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any
20 housekeeping at the desk?
21 On behalf of Senator Nozzolio, on
22 page number 36, I offer the following amendments
23 to Calendar Number 591, Senate Print Number 6596
2846
1 and ask that it retain its place on the Third
2 Reading Calendar.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 amendments to Calendar Number 591 are received
5 and accepted. The bill will retain its place on
6 the Third Reading Calendar.
7 Senator Bruno.
8 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
9 there being no further business to come before
10 the Senate, I move that we stand adjourned in
11 the memory of Louis Pataki, the father of the
12 Governor, George Pataki, of New York State,
13 until tomorrow at 11:00 a.m.
14 Thank you.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
16 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until
17 tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. in the memory of the
18 Governor's father, Louis Pataki.
19 (Whereupon, at 4:13 p.m., the
20 Senate adjourned.)
21
22
23