Regular Session - March 28, 1996
2847
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 March 28, 1996
10 11:01 a.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 SENATOR MICHAEL J. HOBLOCK, Acting President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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2848
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
3 Senate will come to order.
4 I ask everyone to rise and
5 repeat with me the Pledge of Allegiance.
6 (The assemblage repeated the
7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
8 In the absence of clergy, may we
9 bow our heads in a moment of silence.
10 (A moment of silence was
11 observed.)
12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
13 Reading of the Journal.
14 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
15 Wednesday, March 27th, the Senate met pursuant
16 to adjournment. The Journal of Tuesday, March
17 26th, was read and approved. On motion, Senate
18 adjourned.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
20 Without objection, the Journal stands approved
21 as read.
22 Presentation of petitions.
23 Messages from the Assembly.
2849
1 Messages from the Governor.
2 Reports of standing committees.
3 Reports of select committees.
4 Communications and reports from
5 state officers.
6 Motions and resolutions.
7 Senator Bruno, we have a
8 substitution to make.
9 SENATOR BRUNO: Please make the
10 substitution, Mr. President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
12 Clerk will read.
13 THE SECRETARY: On page 6,
14 Senator DeFrancisco moves to discharge from the
15 Committee on Corporations Assembly Bill Number
16 8800 and substitute it for the identical
17 Calendar Number 598.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
19 Without objection, the substitution is approved.
20 Senator Bruno, are you ready
21 for the calendar?
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Yes, Mr.
23 President. Can we at this time take up the
2850
1 noncontroversial calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
3 Secretary will read.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 129, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1847A, an
6 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in
7 relation to providing an exemption for capital
8 construction costs.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
10 Read the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
14 Call the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll.)
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
18 bill is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 243, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 2614, an
21 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
22 providing and maintaining alarms and an early
23 warning system.
2851
1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
2 Read the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
6 Call the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
10 bill is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 244, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3561, an
13 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation
14 to expanding the jurisdiction of the family
15 court to enforce the compulsory attendance law.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
17 Read the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
21 Call the roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31.
2852
1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
2 bill is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 388, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 466A, an
5 act to amend the Social Services Law, in
6 relation to access to the statewide register of
7 child abuse and maltreatment.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
9 Read the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
13 Call the roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
17 bill is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 390, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 2138, an
20 act to amend the Social Services Law and the
21 Education Law in relation to authorizing the
22 fingerprinting of prospective employees.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it
2853
1 aside.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay
3 the bill aside.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 465, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 1372, an
6 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to
7 exemption from the spending limits of fire
8 districts.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read
10 the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect on the first day of
13 January.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call
15 the roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
19 bill is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 469, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate
22 Print 3553, an act in relation to permitting the
23 establishment of the Town of Champlain Sewer
2854
1 Benefit Area No. 1.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
3 Home rule message is at the desk.
4 Read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 9. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call
8 the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
12 bill is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 471, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3736, an
15 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in
16 relation to creating the Town of Southampton
17 Community Development Agency.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
19 Home rule message is at the desk.
20 Read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call
2855
1 the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
5 bill is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 475, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 5900, an
8 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in
9 relation to allowing municipalities to extend
10 the redemption period for repayment of
11 delinquent property taxes.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
13 Read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
17 Call the roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll.)
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 32.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
21 bill is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 476, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 5903A, an
2856
1 act to amend the Local Finance Law, in relation
2 to temporary alternative methods of financing
3 snow and ice removal.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read
5 the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
9 Call the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 32.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
13 bill is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 489, by Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print 5544, an
16 act to amend the Business Corporation Law, in
17 relation to the right of housing cooperatives to
18 impose fees.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
20 Read the last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
2857
1 Call the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 32.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
5 bill is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 520, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 6112, an
8 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law,
9 in relation to the Central Pine Barrens
10 comprehensive land use plan.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
12 Read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
16 Call the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 32.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
20 bill is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 527, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3740A, an
23 act authorizing an advisory nonbinding referen
2858
1 dum in the towns of East Hampton, Riverhead,
2 Shelter Island, Southampton and Southold in the
3 county of Suffolk.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
5 Read the last section.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it
7 aside.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay
9 it aside? Lay the bill aside.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 528, by Senator Marcellino -
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it
13 aside.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay
15 the bill aside.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 590, by Senator Skelos -
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it
19 aside.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Lay
21 the bill aside.
22 Senator Skelos, that completes
23 the noncontroversial reading of the Calendar.
2859
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Please take up
2 the controversial calendar.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
4 Secretary will read.
5 THE SECRETARY: On page 24,
6 Calendar Number 390, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate
7 Print 2138, an act to amend the Social Services
8 Law and the Education Law, in relation to
9 authorizing the fingerprinting of prospective
10 employees.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
12 Explanation asked for by Senator Paterson.
13 Senator Nozzolio.
14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you,
15 Mr. President. My colleagues, the measure
16 before us authorizing fingerprinting of
17 prospective employees of school districts and
18 screening them is a measure that is long
19 overdue. It provides the same type of screening
20 potential for the upstate school districts that
21 the city of New York and their school districts
22 now have before them.
23 What we're asking the school
2860
1 districts to have is the ability to check
2 criminal backgrounds of prospective teachers and
3 other school district personnel. This
4 information is vital when making such an
5 important decision as who will be working day in
6 and day out with the young people of our state
7 in our school systems.
8 As I mentioned, it's a
9 protection, it's an ability that the
10 superintendents and administrators of New York
11 City school districts already have and we're
12 trying to simply put that same type of
13 opportunity, that same potential for review
14 within those school districts outside the city
15 of New York.
16 The measure is one that I'm very
17 sad has to take place, but I have seen
18 personally the devastation that hiring an
19 individual with a criminal record can do to a
20 community. I have seen that in my own
21 Senatorial District where an individual had a
22 criminal record and that record was further
23 exacerbated by criminal conduct as a teacher,
2861
1 conduct that could have been prevented, injury
2 to students that could have been prevented if
3 the school district had opportunity to review
4 this individual's background.
5 That is exactly what my measure
6 does, Mr. President, and I urge its passage very
7 swiftly.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you
9 very much.
10 Mr. President, if Senator
11 Nozzolio would kindly yield for a question?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
13 Senator Nozzolio, do you yield?
14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, of
15 course, I would be glad to yield to my
16 distinguished colleague, but before I do, I
17 would just like to add one thing, if I may, Mr.
18 Paterson.
19 This measure passed this house
20 last year 57 to 2.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
22 Thank you. Senator Nozzolio yields.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Well,
2862
1 Senator, I thought you would like to try to go
2 for a shutout, and that's why I have a question
3 that's specifically on that point.
4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr.
5 President, I can't hear.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
7 Excuse me, Senator Paterson. Can we have a
8 little order in the house, please?
9 Thank you.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: The desire
11 that Senator Nozzolio stated and the objective
12 of this bill is very clear, and as he pointed
13 out, it's sad that it has to get to this point,
14 but perhaps it does and, therefore, Senator, I
15 just want to ask you, what about teachers who
16 are already working prior to the passage of this
17 bill, would there be any kind of provision to
18 check the criminal records of individuals who
19 already are employed in the school districts?
20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: It would be
21 up to the board of education in each individual
22 district to decide how they were going to screen
23 their personnel. This is meant to establish at
2863
1 the threshold background investigation during
2 the application process, but there is nothing,
3 in my opinion, that would preclude the district,
4 if it so desired, from looking at a more
5 comprehensive access to the information.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Very good,
7 Senator. If the Senator would continue to
8 yield.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Do
10 you continue to yield, Senator Nozzolio?
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
12 President.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: The use of
14 the term "criminal record", does this apply to
15 criminal convictions? Is it arrests? I'm
16 interested in what may have been false
17 accusations. I don't have a problem at all, in
18 fact, I endorse the concept of wanting to know a
19 criminal history where an individual has been
20 convicted, but what about someone who's been
21 charged; and in addition to that, what about any
22 other offenses that might exist that might not
23 relate to the care of children?
2864
1 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: If I may, in
2 response to that, Senator Paterson, your last
3 question whether the measure would only deal
4 with new employees or also extend to existing
5 employees, I wish to correct a statement I made
6 to you earlier.
7 Section 39, it's page 2, lines
8 25 through 30 of the bill, suggests very clearly
9 that it would be the screening of all personnel
10 to be employed by the school district, so that
11 we're looking at prospective employees, not
12 current employees, and I wish to correct the
13 statement I made to you earlier.
14 In response to your current question,
15 could you please restate that? I'm not sure if
16 I picked it all up.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Let me try
18 by posing two questions: The first question is,
19 give me the definition of a criminal second.
20 I'm interested in whether we're talking about
21 convictions or accusations.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
23 Excuse me, Senator Paterson.
2865
1 Can we get some order in the
2 house, please? We can't hear.
3 Okay, Senator Paterson.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
5 My question, Senator Nozzolio,
6 would be can you define for me the meaning of
7 the term "criminal record"? Are we talking
8 about convictions or are we talking about
9 criminal charges? In other words, I see a
10 distinction between an individual who's been
11 convicted for a crime and somebody who may have
12 been arrested and that's why their fingerprints
13 would show up, because they were arrested.
14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: The bill
15 itself provides school districts access to this
16 information, Senator, the state Central Registry
17 of Child Abuse and Maltreatment and the records
18 of the FBI. So, if those records indicate
19 certain conduct or certain behavior or certain
20 activity, the information obtained in those
21 records would be what would be available to
22 school districts as it is now available to those
23 districts in New York City; and FBI records, I
2866
1 think, would include not just those convictions,
2 but also arrests and fingerprint records, as
3 well.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
5 President, if Senator Nozzolio would continue to
6 yield.
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
8 President.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, you
10 are not interested in the information that would
11 demonstrate conduct as opposed to the
12 information that would demonstrate accusation?
13 In other words, if a person actually has a
14 criminal record, I think if they are going to be
15 working around small children as you so very
16 well pointed out earlier, that it would be very
17 beneficial for the school districts to have this
18 information; but, since there is at least a
19 presumption of innocence in our society and many
20 people have been arrested and not convicted and
21 not -- it was not proven, whatever the charges
22 actually were, don't you think that it creates a
23 stigma for the individual who is arrested as if
2867
1 the person was convicted of a crime when they
2 start to seek employment in a school system?
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Let me answer
4 that question, Senator, in a couple of ways:
5 First, we're trying to end the double standard
6 that exists today between the efforts to look
7 into the criminal backgrounds of teachers who
8 seek to teach in the New York City system versus
9 those who seek to teach and work outside the New
10 York City system.
11 The New York City system now
12 allows access to this information, the
13 information that is precisely prescribed by the
14 language before us today. Why should New York
15 City administrators have the right to check into
16 this background, yet administrators from all
17 across the state do not have that opportunity?
18 Let me state, in answer to your
19 question, it another way: Criminal background
20 checks don't necessarily have to get into just
21 the issue of conviction. As a matter of fact,
22 one convicted of a certain crime, certainly
23 that's important to know, but it is also
2868
1 important to know if one was arrested for a
2 certain crime and then pled to another crime,
3 particularly when you're dealing with children.
4 And let me illustrate the point, Senator, by
5 discussing an individual who may have been
6 arrested and a case built against them for child
7 abuse, child mistreatment or child sexual
8 attack, a sexual attack against a child.
9 Someone arrested for that type of activity may
10 plead to another offense for a variety of
11 reasons; yet, certainly, I would believe that
12 you and everyone else in this room, when dealing
13 -- entrusted with the responsibility of hiring
14 somebody to deal with a child on a day-to-day
15 basis, would certainly want to know that
16 information as to whether or not an individual
17 had put themselves in a circumstance to be so
18 arrested. Would that person be a reasonable
19 risk when brought into a school district and
20 entrusted with the responsibility of dealing
21 with children on a day-to-day basis, eight-hour,
22 nine-hour, ten-hour day basis.
23 That's exactly what happened in a
2869
1 town in my district. An individual was arrested
2 and apprehended for a child sexual attack, pled
3 guilty to another lesser included offense for
4 the sake of a plea bargain and wound up teaching
5 in this school district, in a few years,
6 continued that sexual misbehavior, attacked
7 children and, in effect, devastated their lives
8 when, in fact, if the school district knew about
9 that prior conduct, could have taken the
10 opportunity to screen and err on the side of
11 safety.
12 I don't believe that we are
13 trying to establish onerous responsibility,
14 onerous types of criteria in this legislation;
15 rather, we are trying to simply end the double
16 standard that exists today in checking criminal
17 background and ensure that those administrators
18 are erring on the side of safety and have all
19 the information necessary; in effect, Senator
20 Paterson, if the administrator wanted to hire an
21 individual after seeing that arrest record, that
22 would be a decision by the administrator and by
23 the school board, but at the very least, they
2870
1 would have at their disposal the information
2 necessary to make a learned decision.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you
4 very much, Senator. You gave a very good
5 example, but it is not distinguished from the
6 point that I'm raising. If a person was
7 arrested and pled to a lesser charge, that's a
8 conviction, and that conviction, even though the
9 charge may be less, I agree with you that we
10 should know everything about the case. So, in
11 other words, they pled to a lesser charge, that
12 was a plea bargaining arrangement, it's quite
13 possible they were actually guilty of the
14 original crime that they were charged for, and I
15 think it would be extremely important, as you
16 pointed out, to have that information, so I
17 agree with you 100 Percent.
18 Where I also agree with you is I
19 don't think that there should be an incon
20 sistent standard between New York City and the
21 rest of the state. So, therefore, the fact that
22 you have introduced this bill actually raises
23 the question of review of the standard that may
2871
1 exist in New York City's school system, so I
2 agree with you there, as well.
3 If I might ask you to yield for
4 another question.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
6 Senator Nozzolio, do you yield?
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly,
8 Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
10 Senator Paterson.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: What I'm
12 talking about, Senator, is an arrest that did
13 not lead to a conviction, an accusation that was
14 not substantiated, and I'm not trying to protect
15 anybody who is potentially harmful to students
16 in our school system, what I'm trying to do is
17 to protect people who have been accused of doing
18 a lot of things they didn't do, quite often
19 through ulterior motives of the accusing party.
20 And I'm saying the fact that this information is
21 now on their record does not mean that they're
22 guilty, doesn't mean they did anything, but it
23 does mean that a lot of people who may not be in
2872
1 a position to weigh that information, not what
2 you're talking about, not convictions or
3 pleading to a lesser charge, I'm talking about
4 the specific cases where the person wasn't
5 convicted of anything, where the complaining
6 witness may have even withdrawn the charge, and
7 I'm saying to have individuals who run school
8 districts be able to examine that evidence and
9 perhaps damage the reputations of the
10 individuals involved is something that I have a
11 little bit of a problem with. And so what I'm
12 asking you is, is that in existence in this
13 bill? In other words, would a person who was
14 merely arrested and not convicted of anything,
15 would that information still be made available
16 to the school districts?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
18 Senator Nozzolio, can I interrupt you a minute,
19 please?
20 Can we show a little respect and
21 courtesy to our colleagues, please, as they
22 debate this bill? It's getting a little noisy
23 and people are having problems hearing.
2873
1 Thank you.
2 Senator Nozzolio.
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you,
4 Mr. President.
5 Senator, this information is
6 available to the school personnel who are
7 reviewing applicants for hire. It is
8 information that we're making accessible to
9 them. It is information that is readily
10 accessible to other employers. If the same
11 individual was seeking a job with the state of
12 New York, that individual would have a criminal
13 background check against them appropriate to the
14 responsibility, and we're saying if the
15 information is available for somebody who seeks
16 to be a bureaucrat, why should that information
17 be available on someone who seeks to be working
18 with children day in and day out.
19 It is not openly accessible,
20 it's only accessible for the specific purpose of
21 a background check for hire and that, I think,
22 is distinguished, Senator, based on the fact
23 that it is certainly used for a specific
2874
1 purpose.
2 And on the arrest, David, if I
3 may, you have -- for those circumstances that
4 appear unrelated or irrelevant to an
5 individual's character or conduct, the school
6 district has the opportunity to make a judgment
7 that that information has not precluded a good
8 candidate from receiving employment. So, there
9 is no discretion taken away from the school
10 district; on the contrary, we're empowering the
11 school district with the opportunity to have
12 this information before it makes a decision.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you
14 very much, Senator. The answers were very
15 responsive.
16 Mr. President, on the bill.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
18 Senator Paterson, on the bill.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
20 Nozzolio is right, if there is one area that we
21 probably need an even greater protection, it's
22 individuals who work around young children. I
23 have read statistics that run as high as that
2875
1 one out of every five small children is in some
2 way sexually abused by the time they reach 18.
3 Some of the statistics are startling.
4 As a society, we have often, in
5 many ways, ignored these types of problems, as
6 we have with other issues, and are finally
7 getting to this in our discussion here today and
8 through Senator Nozzolio's bill.
9 All I was trying to point out,
10 Mr. President, is that sometimes we just have to
11 remember that this is America. Now, if this
12 were Bosnia, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to
13 look at everybody's record, but what I thought
14 distinguished this country and what I thought
15 made our system of jurisprudence superior to all
16 of the other democracies in the world is that we
17 are careful about protecting individual freedom
18 and that we do have a standard that separates
19 what would be conviction from accusation. We
20 have a presumption of innocence. And, if there
21 was any kind of a guilty plea to anything, that
22 changes the game and, in my opinion, we're
23 entitled to know everything about the
2876
1 individual. Even if they pleaded to a lesser
2 charge, we're entitled to know what the original
3 charge was.
4 I just have a concern about
5 individuals who are accused of crimes and may
6 have been nowhere in the vicinity but because
7 they were arrested and fingerprinted, it now
8 haunts them and acts as a stigma every place
9 they go and a whole lot of people who may be
10 frightened by the mere association with the
11 criminal justice system, would deny them
12 employment when, in fact, they have done
13 absolutely nothing wrong.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
15 Senator Lachman.
16 SENATOR LACHMAN: Yes, Mr.
17 President, I would like to explain my position
18 on Calendar 390. First, I want to express my
19 appreciation to Senator Paterson for his
20 viewpoint. I greatly respect his position and
21 his reservations which are my reservations, as
22 well.
23 However, when one is in a
2877
1 position of authority, and one is in loco
2 parenti to children, there are other positions
3 and other values that come into focus, and it's
4 very difficult at times to choose between two
5 different sets of values that you believe in.
6 As a former president of the New
7 York Board of Education, I face the reality of
8 this problem and I come down in support of
9 Senator Nozzolio's position and that is how I'm
10 going to vote.
11 The rights and responsibilities
12 of adults are very important to me, but the
13 rights and responsibilities and security of
14 children are at least equally important to me;
15 and if, for example, we're to have security
16 guards in a particular school, we have to make
17 certain that these security guards will, in
18 fact, be protecting children and not doing
19 anything else in regard to these children.
20 There have been cases in school
21 districts which did not have such legislation
22 where problems have occurred.
23 So, in a very difficult vote and
2878
1 a difficult decision, I vote yes, I will be
2 voting yes on the Nozzolio bill.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
4 Secretary will read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 8. This
6 act shall take effect September 1.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
8 Call the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
12 bill is passed.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 527 by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3740A, an
15 act authorizing an advisory, nonbinding referen
16 dum in the Towns of East Hampton, Riverhead,
17 Shelter Island, Southampton and Southold in
18 Suffolk County.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
21 Senator LaValle, an explanation had been asked
22 for by Senator Paterson.
23 SENATOR LAVALLE: Thank you,
2879
1 Mr. President.
2 This legislation that would
3 begin a process that would lead to the creation
4 of Peconic County is somewhat different from
5 legislation that we have debated and passed on
6 at least two other occasions in this house. The
7 amended bill, 3740A, simply allows for a
8 referendum, advisory referendum in the five
9 eastern towns, those towns being Riverhead,
10 Southold, Shelter Island, Southampton, and East
11 Hampton.
12 As we have discussed in prior
13 debates and as delineated in the bill, that the
14 legislature, under Section 2 of Article IX of
15 the state Constitution, is charged with the
16 responsibility for the creation of all local
17 governments in New York State. We have found,
18 while there are procedures, uniform procedures
19 enacted for the creation of villages and towns
20 and cities, there is no procedure existing for
21 the creation of a new county.
22 New counties have been enacted
23 during the history of New York State by special
2880
1 acts of the legislature. We are embarking -
2 and I might say this body, through its budget,
3 enacted an appropriation of $50,000 that was
4 matched by the local towns, and that $100,000
5 was spent on a financial feasibility study on
6 whether Peconic County is indeed feasible for
7 the five eastern towns.
8 There were hearings and
9 meetings, both public and private, that involved
10 policymakers from the county of Suffolk and from
11 the five eastern towns.
12 I just want to, for part of the
13 record -- for the record, just read a little
14 piece that goes to the essence of why this
15 debate for more than 30 years has become so
16 important to the people of the East End, and in
17 the foreword of the report, "Peconic County,
18 Financial Feasibility Study," it says, "East End
19 and West End towns have developed into different
20 entities. The two parts of Suffolk County are
21 different in terms of land use issues, sources
22 of commerce, tourism, second home ownership,
23 population growth, land and resource
2881
1 conservation and other elements. These
2 fundamental, socioeconomic and quality of life
3 issues are manifested in fundamental differences
4 in philosophy of county government between the
5 citizens of the East End and western towns," and
6 it goes on.
7 The last thing is a quote from
8 the presiding officer of the Suffolk County
9 legislature and he said: "The interests of the
10 East End are substantially different from the
11 West End."
12 And so this legislation would
13 begin, actually, a process locally that takes
14 from the feasibility study, and the people have
15 both participated, have seen newspaper stories.
16 When you talk about 100,000
17 people in the East End, you talk about the issue
18 of Peconic County, and I can tell you, it is
19 indeed a burning issue and that people are tuned
20 into what is happening both in the public forum
21 and the media. And so that part has already
22 taken place, the feasibility study.
23 Now what we're saying is that
2882
1 the people should let us know, let us in the
2 state know what is their judgment in the
3 creation of Peconic County. If the people, in
4 the November election, vote that they would like
5 the creation of Peconic County, then I and
6 Assemblyman Thiele, who is the Assemblyman, and
7 Assemblywoman Acampora, will be back to this
8 legislative body asking for further authori
9 zation for the creation, by a special act of the
10 legislature, the creation of Peconic County.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
12 Senator Paterson.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
14 Mr. President.
15 If my colleague would yield for
16 a question.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
18 Senator LaValle, would you yield?
19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I
20 would, Senator.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
22 Senator yields.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
2883
1 Lavalle, In the feasibility study, was there a
2 discussion of what the economic cost would be to
3 add a whole new layer of government to, in a
4 sense -- rather than coalescing resources, I
5 would imagine this legislation would create more
6 government because you would have two separate
7 counties, Peconic and what's left of Suffolk
8 County.
9 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, that
10 is indeed a very good question, and indeed they
11 did look at that. In the feasibility study, I
12 would -- and I will quote, we just talked
13 about-- I'm going to answer your question in two
14 parts. The first deals with tax issues for
15 Peconic County, and it shows that the citizens
16 of the East End towns paid Suffolk 26.4 million
17 in property taxes in 1993, or 13.8 million more
18 than what they would have paid Peconic County in
19 its first year of operation, assumed to be 1996.
20 As part of the breakdown, it
21 does assume that there are some functions that,
22 because they would have to be duplicated in
23 Peconic County, would cost Peconic County some
2884
1 money.
2 On the other hand, Senator, the
3 people of Peconic County have argued that there
4 is too much government in Suffolk County and
5 that the budget that was enacted and the model
6 that the study was based on shows that there are
7 far fewer services that would be part of Peconic
8 County's budget.
9 So, while there is some cost
10 that they actually put into the study on
11 duplication, overall, there are reduced
12 salaries, reduced services in Peconic County,
13 reduced insurance and indemnity costs,
14 elimination of any east to west subsidy, and a
15 restructuring of the debt payments; and all this
16 accounts for a lower real property tax payment
17 by the creation of Peconic County for the East
18 End.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
20 Mr. President. I just have one other question,
21 if Senator LaValle would yield.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
23 Senator LaValle, do you continue to yield?
2885
1 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I would,
2 Senator Paterson.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
4 To your knowledge, what is the
5 feeling of the other towns, not the eastern five
6 towns, but the other parts of Suffolk County,
7 how do they feel about this creation of a new
8 county?
9 SENATOR LAVALLE: That's a very
10 -- I don't think there's a definitive answer to
11 that, Senator, but I would say to you that I
12 personally live in the part of the First
13 Senatorial District in the Town of Brookhaven,
14 which is to the west and is the largest of the
15 towns in the county of Suffolk, and I have found
16 within Brookhaven town that there is support for
17 this kind of effort because the people
18 understand that the East End, the five eastern
19 towns, is far different and that, as a matter of
20 fact, Senator, and it's discussed in the report,
21 the East End provides all the open-space land,
22 the farm land, the second home opportunities for
23 people that use them as recreation homes. And
2886
1 so, maintaining that quality of life on Long
2 Island is very, very important and many people
3 feel, as I do, that one of the best mechanisms
4 to do that is to empower the people who live
5 there to maintain that quality of life, not only
6 as I had talked about its resources -- we passed
7 a bill here preserving the pine barrens and that
8 was an effort that again was initiated by East
9 End people because it was important to maintain
10 a quality of life not only for the East End, but
11 for all of Long Island. And you know, Senator,
12 all of Long Island supported that initiative
13 because it's important to maintain the last
14 vestige of what Long Island is all about and
15 that's the East End of Long Island.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
17 Senator.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lachman.
19 SENATOR LACHMAN: Mr.
20 President, would the Senator yield?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
22 Senator LaValle, would you yield?
23 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes,
2887
1 Senator.
2 SENATOR LACHMAN: In a few
3 days, Senator, my children will be asking
4 me,"Why is this night different from all other
5 nights?"
6 My question to you, Senator
7 LaValle, is why is this county different from
8 all other counties in the state of New York? I
9 come from the largest county in the state of New
10 York, the county of Brooklyn, Kings County, and
11 some of the explanations that you have offered
12 could also be offered for Brooklyn. Brooklyn
13 would be the second largest city in the United
14 States, the first in New York State. There are
15 people who say there's a north Brooklyn and a
16 south Brooklyn, and economically, geographic
17 ally, ethically and racially, there are
18 differences, but we in Brooklyn believe that the
19 way of handling such a situation is not
20 separating north from south Brooklyn, but
21 working together and delivering services to all
22 areas and making the entire county economically
23 viable.
2888
1 I guess my question to the
2 distinguished Senator is what criteria do we
3 have here that can apply statewide to all other
4 similar situations? If they cannot, then I
5 would just have to say that this is not a good
6 precedent for the state of New York.
7 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I
8 think that's a fair question, and one of the
9 things I talked about in my opening remarks is
10 that while we, under the Constitution, under
11 Section 2 of Article IX, create local
12 subdivisions and we have uniform procedures, the
13 creation of towns and villages and cities, we
14 have no one uniform procedure for the creation
15 of a county. And yet we, as a legislature, have
16 created counties by special acts; and so we are
17 enacting a procedure, the best one we know how,
18 which is to at the earliest stages, to involve
19 the people by referendum, to ask them.
20 But, to go back to the basic
21 question that you asked about why is this
22 different, and if we just take Brooklyn and its
23 role in New York City, we find that Peconic
2889
1 County, while it represents eight percent of the
2 people and 30 percent of the land mass in
3 Suffolk County, can never, never, never, in its
4 governance structure, have any impact in an
5 18-member county legislature, it has two
6 representatives to the county legislature. And
7 so whatever it wants in terms of a change, it
8 can never receive because their two county
9 legislators could vote either no or yes and
10 never really make a difference.
11 And so, the philosophy -- while
12 there is some homogeneity within New York City,
13 the five eastern towns are so different from the
14 five western towns because it has as its basis
15 of economic development, it's agrarian, it's
16 farms, it's fishing, it's tourism, it's second
17 home ownership for those who use it, their
18 second home, for recreation. That is the basic
19 economy of the East End. It is more rooted and
20 grounded in historic customs and traditions.
21 Families have passed down these traditions in
22 it.
23 The local newspapers are replete
2890
1 with stories of people who, this generation,
2 have been handed through multiple generations
3 the opportunity to farm or fish and there are
4 names that historically are very, very rich in
5 the Long Island history of the East End.
6 So, it's very, very different;
7 but it's the governance, it goes to governance
8 and whether the people of the five eastern towns
9 could ever affect or change their life.
10 The question that Senator Paterson
11 asked me on cost, people of the East End believe
12 that there's too much government, too much
13 government. They can never effect that change
14 in Suffolk County government. They can never
15 say, "We want to change our taxes," or, "We
16 don't believe in certain programs." They can
17 never do that because they don't have the
18 representation to do it. It's the difference
19 that I think makes this a unique -- and I know
20 most every member -- we all talk about how our
21 Senate districts are unique and different, but
22 here, I think, the report, the feasibility
23 studies, show with empirical evidence, the
2891
1 uniqueness of what they are trying to accomplish
2 and how they can do it in a more efficient and
3 effective way.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
5 Senator Dollinger.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will
7 Senator LaValle yield to a question?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
9 Senator Dollinger, do you yield?
10 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I do.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator,
12 does this bill have a home rule message from
13 Suffolk County itself?
14 SENATOR LAVALLE: No, Senator.
15 This bill, a home rule message was not requested
16 on this bill; and to the best of my knowledge,
17 and I checked with my Assembly sponsor, but even
18 the Assembly on this bill have not asked for a
19 home rule message.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
21 through you, Mr. President, if Senator LaValle
22 would continue to yield?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
2892
1 Senator LaValle, do you continue to yield?
2 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: At some
4 point, do you anticipate that if this nonbinding
5 referendum were passed, much like we have
6 experienced in Staten Island, that at some point
7 there would be a need for a home rule message
8 from the county in which this political change
9 will occur, and I guess my question is, do you
10 anticipate that happening, that there would be
11 -- at some point, we would get from Suffolk
12 County a home rule message?
13 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as
14 you see the bill before you is an "A" print, is
15 an amended version. The bill 3740 that existed
16 was a much broader and comprehensive bill than
17 the one before us. We have debated that bill
18 that would have set into motion the process for
19 the creation of a new county based on the fact
20 that this legislature constitutionally, under
21 Section 2, Article IX of the Constitution, can
22 create special acts by a special act of the
23 legislature, a county. The home rule counsel in
2893
1 this house has felt that that is a broad and
2 statewide scope and has not requested a home
3 rule message. That approach has been different
4 on the broader bill in the other house.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
6 President, if Senator LaValle would continue to
7 yield?
8 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
10 SENATOR LAVALLE: , do you continue to yield?
11 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I would.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would the
13 voting eligibility in this referendum be the
14 same as it would be in a general election?
15 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, it
16 would. It specifically talks about consistent
17 with the -- it would be conducted by the Board
18 of Elections in a manner provided in the
19 Election Law and provisions of such law, so that
20 the answer is yes.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay, so it
22 would be based on domicile, and those who have
23 resort homes or second homes wouldn't
2894
1 necessarily be eligible to vote?
2 SENATOR LAVALLE: That is
3 correct, unless that is their principal place
4 that they have declared principal residence. And
5 by the way, Senator, I have many such people
6 that probably spend more time -- and I just see
7 my colleague, Senator Leichter -- probably spend
8 more time in Senator Leichter's district or
9 Senator Goodman's district, but actually vote in
10 the First Senatorial District.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the
12 bill, Mr. President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
14 Senator Dollinger, on the bill.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think
16 Senator LaValle makes a very persuasive argument
17 for creating a new county in the eastern portion
18 of Suffolk County.
19 I come from a county that has
20 the same heterogeneous character that might
21 exist in Suffolk County. We have a large urban
22 area, we have inner-ring suburbs that have many
23 of the same types of urban problems, we have a
2895
1 completely suburban eastern portion of Monroe
2 County, and we have a largely rural western
3 portion of Monroe County, and it seems to me,
4 while I'm going to vote in favor of this bill
5 because I'm willing to let the people of these
6 towns be heard, but I don't want my vote to be
7 interpreted as agreeing to the concept that we
8 would create a new government on the eastern
9 portion of Suffolk County, or necessarily
10 acknowledging my affirmance to the notion that
11 counties created 100 years ago, 200 years ago,
12 political subdivisions, all of which, if we were
13 planning them today for the first time, we might
14 redesign them to create the kind of eastern,
15 perhaps suburban portion of Monroe County and
16 calling it Pittsford and take the west side and
17 call it Hamlin, the side that's represented by
18 Senator Maziarz, the eastern side, represented
19 by Senator Alesi, and the center portion,
20 represented by me in the 54th Senate District.
21 Any time we sit down and begin
22 to draw the lines of new levels of government,
23 we can accentuate the differences between
2896
1 people, we can accentuate the differences
2 between communities. My personal experience is
3 that over time, even those differences change in
4 changing contours in the higher mobility of our
5 population and what might look like a whole
6 separate and distinct community today will
7 really not be that 50 years from now, much as
8 it's changed in the last 100 years or 200 years.
9 So, I'm prepared to let the
10 people in these towns participate in the
11 nonbinding referendum; but much as we have had
12 this discussion on Staten Island with Senator
13 Marchi, I'm not at this point prepared to create
14 new levels of government when what I think we
15 should be doing is creating smaller ones. We
16 may have that debate some day, we'll see what
17 this referendum produces, but at least for this
18 Senator, I'm going to reserve judgment on the
19 larger issue and the more philosophical issue of
20 whether we should be creating an entire new
21 county in this state.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
23 Senator Marchi.
2897
1 SENATOR MARCHI: I certainly
2 approve of the spirit that Senator Dollinger
3 brings to this, he is receptive and open to the
4 expression of feeling in those counties, but we
5 do have a very serious effort on the part of
6 Senator LaValle to develop all of the premises
7 that are required for viability. If they're not
8 viable -- I know that the argument came up about
9 Kings County. Kings County could not exist
10 alone; Bronx County couldn't; Queens probably
11 could; Manhattan, they could all ride around in
12 Cadillacs with chauffeurs, I guess, because the
13 bulk of the wealth is there. Staten Island
14 produces a net surplus of revenue and has the
15 viability. That argument would not be enough.
16 We were visited with the
17 principle of one man, one vote to transcend
18 political correctness at this point, and for
19 five years -- I had introduced a bill in 1983
20 but I didn't press it because I was trying to
21 keep the City together. It ended with an
22 adverse determination on the part of the Supreme
23 Court of the United States in which they stated
2898
1 that, not that they were against keeping the
2 City together, but that the one man, one vote
3 principle should obtain. Well, we're 400,000
4 people against 7 and a half million; we just
5 don't stand a chance.
6 Anyone who has had the
7 opportunity to read the New York Times
8 yesterday, and now they're offering as a revenue
9 raiser, visits by the tourist bureau to see a
10 garbage dump where they dump 16,000 tons of
11 garbage every single day, 365 days a year.
12 Now, I've heard arguments here,
13 minuscule arguments of a much lesser dimension.
14 There's no liner there. The water, the
15 subsurface water in the county of Richmond, if
16 it is ever redeemable, will be decades and
17 decades and perhaps centuries, the compromise
18 has been so thorough and complete. You cannot
19 drink it. It used to supply us with 50 percent
20 of the -- 50 percent of the potable water that
21 we consumed in that county.
22 We laid out a plan, it was
23 approved by both houses of the Legislature -
2899
1 and this is the problem that I would raise, this
2 is the dilemma that may eventually face Senator
3 LaValle. Speaker Weprin, Speaker Fink, Speaker
4 -- help me out -- Miller, Miller, all of them
5 respected the process by which we developed a
6 methodology and laws and step-by-step evolution
7 in the development of a charter and the rest of
8 it.
9 This has been done by Senator
10 LaValle, with their own resources, with their
11 own initiative, has observed all of the rules,
12 and I believe they should be given audience,
13 given the circumstances that they face.
14 Our circumstances are absolutely
15 terrible, terrible, not because the City is evil
16 or anything, but we just don't have the numbers
17 and that is partially the argument that Senator
18 LaValle has. He cannot insinuate, he cannot
19 develop that point of view which are peculiar
20 and particular to the areas that he represents.
21 Though it deserves a chance, it
22 deserves an opportunity to be heard. The only
23 thing I don't know, Senator, is there's no home
2900
1 rule requirement in the Assembly, but Speaker
2 Silver, as distinguished from prior Speakers, as
3 distinguished from Governor Mario Cuomo who said
4 that this process was eminently fair and was
5 well-grounded in decisions that flowed from the
6 Supreme Court, also the expressions of Governor
7 Pataki, that he's waiting to sign the bill, he
8 will not even let the bill out to be considered.
9 People can't hear the bill. They are not
10 permitted to vote on it. If he has powers of
11 suasion, maybe he could defeat it and that would
12 end it for all time. But, that is the problem
13 that Senator LaValle faces, that when the time
14 comes to make a final determination, something
15 will be thrown at him to prevent and impede
16 consideration by the Assembly of this issue.
17 My Assembly colleagues have
18 brought a lawsuit, I'm not sure that that is
19 appropriate because each house -- I mean, they
20 determine their own leadership and so there are
21 problems, but there's no question on the
22 question of the ethics of preventing a body that
23 is ready and willing to vote on a subject and
2901
1 then denying them that right and raising
2 subjects that have never been recognized by
3 three previous Speakers and two Governors. We're
4 talking about bipartisan judgment on the
5 operation of freedom and self-determination.
6 So, I would hope that this
7 effort and initiative by Senator LaValle
8 representing, as he does, and he has Assembly
9 sponsors, will be given an airing and an
10 opportunity. It's important enough. This isn't
11 fluff, this isn't something that -- this is
12 something vital that goes to the essence of
13 self-determination in those circumstances where
14 it is viable and also those circumstances -- we
15 were given a matrix that we had to come back to
16 the Legislature for final approval because it
17 might invoke some prejudice on the state as a
18 whole and I think that's what Senator Dollinger
19 was concerned about.
20 But we're ready to face these
21 things in the interest of giving voice to people
22 who are earnest, hard-working Americans and make
23 the same pretension to the principle of
2902
1 self-determination that Granada -- I don't know,
2 I counted something like 15 or 20 countries that
3 are recognized by the United Nations that don't
4 have half the population that we have and there
5 are probably nations that are smaller than the
6 little conglomerate that Senator LaValle has.
7 So, I would hope that in the
8 spirit of fairness and openness and availability
9 to suasion on a case that will have to be made
10 down the road to get its initial start by your
11 affirmative vote on this issue, which is so
12 important, not only to Senator LaValle, but to
13 the people in residence of those townships.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
15 Senator Leichter.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
17 President, would Senator LaValle yield, please?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
19 Excuse me, Senator Leichter. Senator Leichter,
20 excuse me a moment.
21 Senator Holland.
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: Would you
23 recognize Senator Stavisky for his vote on this
2903
1 bill, please?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
3 Senator Stavisky.
4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Would you
5 record me in the negative, please?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read
7 the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This
9 act shall take effect on the 180th day.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
11 Call the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
14 Senator Stavisky.
15 SENATOR STAVISKY: In the
16 negative.
17 Without objection, Senator
18 Stavisky will be recorded in the negative.
19 Withdraw the roll call.
20 Senator Leichter.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
22 President, if Senator LaValle would yield.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
2904
1 Senator LaValle, do you yield?
2 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, as
4 I look at the structure of your bill and the
5 process that you set up, I assume you want to do
6 this in a democratic manner and you provide for
7 a referendum which, of course, you have to make
8 nonbinding, is that right?
9 SENATOR LAVALLE: That is
10 correct, that's what we say in the legislation.
11 That, of course, is a democratic process with
12 small "d", Senator.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well,
14 Senator, that's really what concerns me and sort
15 of worries me, or at least one of the things
16 that worries me about this bill, and if you
17 would be good enough to yield.
18 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, sure.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Why not
20 allow the other people of Suffolk to vote on
21 this? You're now serving Suffolk by this
22 procedure, assuming that the five eastern towns
23 decide that they wish to set up their own
2905
1 county. How about the people of Babylon and the
2 people of Huntington? I mean, and Senator
3 Lack's constituents.
4 SENATOR LACK: I live in
5 Huntington, you named it, it's all right.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: I mean,
7 there's been a relationship that goes over 200
8 years. Now you're allowing a small portion of
9 Suffolk County, in effect, to decide by its self
10 to secede. Why is that democratic with a small
11 "d"?
12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Well, Senator,
13 as I had indicated before, this really is no
14 uniform procedure, but there is the part of the
15 county that seems to have different hopes and
16 aspirations about the way it wants to have a
17 government form. And this bill is no different
18 than the bills that we have debated and
19 discussed on prior occasions in this house and
20 that I, and I think Senator Marchi in the
21 referendum on Staten Island, have chosen a
22 methodology.
23 Now, someone else may come
2906
1 before this house and ask a special act be
2 formed to create a county in a different way.
3 This is the methodology that we chose because
4 for 30 years, 30 years, Senator, it's been
5 consistent in these five eastern towns that this
6 is what people have wanted. And if you want to
7 call it a rebellion or a difference, it's
8 because they view the way government and the
9 services that government should be performing
10 far differently from the people in the five
11 western towns.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
13 LaValle would yield to just one more question.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
15 Senator LaValle, do you continue to yield?
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
17 take it as a given that the people of the
18 eastern end of Long Island wish to have their
19 own county, I take it as a given what the vote
20 will be of the nonbinding referendum, but when
21 you say we have a methodology, we set up a
22 methodology for Staten Island that, frankly, I
23 for one thought was wrong and many people in New
2907
1 York City said, "Listen, this is part of New
2 York City, this is, if you will, part of our
3 flesh and blood. If we're going to decide that
4 Staten Island is going to leave New York City,
5 then everybody in New York City has a right to
6 vote on it, not just the people of Staten
7 Island." So, I don't think that we've ever
8 established a methodology where there was
9 consensus that this is fair.
10 And since you talked about
11 democracy with a small "d" and appropriately so,
12 and I know that is a concern of yours, but how
13 can you have democracy when the people in the
14 western part of Suffolk County don't have a
15 voice as to whether they're going to lose part
16 of what has been an integral county for I guess
17 over 200 years.
18 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I
19 just want to state more clearly, you know,
20 again, that there are no procedures that exist
21 for creation of a county and that I and
22 individuals who are involved chose this as a
23 methodology. Now -- and again, I say someone
2908
1 else might come before this house and do it in a
2 different way, might offer a different structure
3 in how it will create the county. So, I mean,
4 we can go back and forth, but this methodology
5 is no different than the two previous bills that
6 have come before the house and that was one,
7 that there would be a feasibility study; that
8 has been done. In part, it's been funded by
9 this body through its budget. Number two, we
10 are requesting, as we have in the past, that a
11 referendum be established as to whether, on the
12 basis of the feasibility study, people feel that
13 a Peconic County is viable, affordable and
14 doable for the people of the five eastern towns.
15 You know, the question was
16 asked, the question was asked about how other
17 people feel, and I can tell you that while the
18 town of Brookhaven, which is the largest of the
19 towns -- I mean, I think people are very
20 supportive of this kind of nature. I mean, I
21 don't have a specific poll, but I know that this
22 has been discussed for many, many years and I
23 think I have some understanding of how people
2909
1 feel. The town of Brookhaven have supported
2 this, because it would maintain for not only the
3 people of the East End, but people of Brookhaven
4 and Huntington and Smithtown and Islip and
5 Babylon, a place that they can go and recreate
6 and have within their county, a place that has a
7 quality of life that has been maintained, the
8 very reason that they moved to Long Island and
9 moved to Suffolk County. So, I think there is
10 that support there.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you
12 very much, Senator LaValle.
13 Mr. President, on the bill.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
15 Senator Leichter, on the bill.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: I mean, it's
17 clear to me that if we're going to go through
18 this process and if, as Senator LaValle says, he
19 wants a process with a small "d", that you must
20 let the entire county vote on whether part of it
21 should be severed. I think that's clear and
22 self-evident, and for Senator LaValle to say,
23 "Well, the people in Brookhaven like it," well
2910
1 fine, let them vote on it if they like it. I
2 mean, I think the fact that they're not being
3 asked to participate in the referendum I think
4 does speak to probably how the rest of, or the
5 western part of Suffolk County feels about being
6 served in this manner.
7 But I want to address something
8 a little different and maybe a more broader
9 point. You know, we function as a state with 62
10 counties. Now, if we were starting over all new
11 and Solomon came down here and did it or even if
12 we, in our not-so-perfect Solomon way, tried to
13 do it, we would certainly divide the state in a
14 different fashion. Maybe New York City wouldn't
15 be composed of the five boroughs, but I think
16 there is a value, there is an importance in
17 maintaining existing standards and existing ways
18 and traditions of governance, and I don't think
19 that we ought so lightly to go into this, "Well,
20 let's set up a new county, let's set up a new
21 town, let's set up a new city." I think that it
22 disrupts basic patterns of government.
23 Now, this is very popular. Let
2911
1 me tell you, if I put a bill in here, my
2 district, they want to be a separate city or we
3 should be a separate borough, everybody would
4 vote for it, and I'm sure that all of you could
5 think of parts of your district where people
6 would want to make changes. And particularly in
7 this time and age where everybody feels somewhat
8 remote from government, it's very seductive to
9 say, "Well, we're going to give you a new
10 status, we're going to change the governance and
11 you're going to be in charge of yourself. The
12 fact is that it's part of the nature of this
13 modern world that we live in that we all are
14 losing, to a large extent, some of the controls
15 that we used to have over our lives, over our
16 communities and to tell people,"Well, you're
17 going to recapture this because I'm going to set
18 up, make Staten Island its own city and I'm
19 going to make the East End of Suffolk County its
20 own county," I think in itself really doesn't
21 work.
22 I think the Staten Island
23 experience, I think has been, to my mind, a
2912
1 mistake; and let me say, it speaks volumes of
2 the extreme high regard that Senator Marchi is
3 held in, not only in this chamber but in this
4 Capitol and in the city, that the process has
5 gone that far. But, to a certain extent,
6 Senator Marchi was a fluke because I remember
7 when the bill first came up in this house, a
8 respected former leader who's no longer with us
9 came and said, "Let the bill pass because it's
10 never going to move in the Assembly." I voted
11 against it and I think I was the only vote in
12 this body against that bill.
13 Well, when it came up in the
14 Assembly and the belief was that the Speaker,
15 Speaker Miller, wouldn't allow it to come up, he
16 said, "Well, all right, we'll let it pass
17 because the Governor's going to veto it." And
18 as you know, it passed the Assembly and went
19 before the Governor and the Governor
20 said,"You're going to make me the fall guy for
21 this? I'm going to sign it," which he did, and
22 that's why we've gone into this process which I
23 don't think has been favorable for not only the
2913
1 city of New York, I don't think it's been
2 favorable for Staten Island. I think it has
3 held out expectations that are never going to be
4 realized, and similarly here.
5 I think all of us know that
6 well-intentioned and sincere as Senator LaValle
7 is, you're never going to sever Suffolk County,
8 it isn't going to happen.
9 So, what is the benefit, what is
10 the value of setting up this sort of a process
11 of riling up the people on the eastern end of
12 Suffolk County, of having the people on the
13 western end of Suffolk County excluded from the
14 process; and if it ever came to realization, it
15 would probably cause so much havoc because
16 people have developed a pattern of governing
17 themselves, of establishing relationships
18 between communities and to their government that
19 really relies very much upon Suffolk being one
20 county.
21 So, I just say that I think that
22 our effort really ought to be to bring people
23 together. This sort of thing divides people,
2914
1 divides the eastern end of Suffolk County from
2 the western end. Senator Marchi, you're
3 dividing Staten Island from the rest of New York
4 and you ought to be part of New York City.
5 You're a wonderful, important, significant part
6 of New York City and even though you have that
7 terrible landfill, let me tell you, my district,
8 I have a big sewage plant. You know, we could
9 say, "Well, we want to become our own community
10 and then get rid of the sewage plant." It
11 doesn't work. We are a whole. You can't sever
12 it, Senator, and let's not proceed in this -- I
13 know that Senator Maltese now has a bill to make
14 Queens its own city and there will be similar
15 such efforts. I think our job really as
16 representatives of the people of New York is to
17 bring everybody together and not to divide them,
18 which I think these bills do. I'm going to vote
19 in the negative.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
21 Senator DiCarlo.
22 SENATOR DiCARLO: Thank you,
23 Mr. President. I'm going to be very brief. I
2915
1 support Senator LaValle's bill because I believe
2 that the people of the East End have a right to
3 their own determination and how their form of
4 government is.
5 I also am a supporter of
6 secession for Staten Island and I object to
7 legislators -- and I have a lot of respect for
8 you, Senator Leichter, but to tell the people of
9 Staten Island that they don't know what they are
10 doing when they overwhelmingly supported
11 secession and years and years and years have
12 gone into study and work on secession and for
13 elected officials in Albany who really don't
14 know about Staten Island all that much to sit up
15 here and say, "Well, we're going to protect you
16 from yourselves," I object to that.
17 And Senator Leichter, if we
18 follow your logic and if during the time before
19 the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation,
20 you would have said to the white slave owners
21 who, if they outnumbered the slaves, "Well, you
22 know, give the white slave owners an equal vote
23 in this, let everyone vote on slavery," and if
2916
1 they outnumbered the slaves, you would have said
2 to them, under your logic, Senator, "Then let's
3 take a vote and let's let the slave owner have
4 an equal say with the slave on their freedom or
5 not."
6 So, I support not only secession
7 for Staten Island as a Brooklyn elected
8 official, but I also support Senator LaValle's
9 bill.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
11 Senator Abate.
12 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, Mr.
13 President. Would Senator LaValle yield to a
14 couple questions, points of clarification?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
16 Senator LaValle, do you yield?
17 SENATOR ABATE: Your head is
18 shaking up and down.
19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. Yes,
20 sir.
21 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you,
22 Senator. Just to clarify a point you made,
23 what would be the legal import of this
2917
1 referendum? Let's say the referendum was
2 carried out and the voters of the five towns
3 sent a message that they wanted to secede from
4 Suffolk County and become its own identity, what
5 would happen after that?
6 SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I
7 think if you looked at the bill, and it talks
8 about advisory nonbinding referendum, the second
9 step, we would have to come back, and in the
10 bill it talks about very specifically that there
11 would have to be a second piece of legislation
12 brought before this body to be voted on which
13 would actually be the special act that would
14 create the county of Peconic.
15 SENATOR ABATE: So this is, in
16 effect, as you said -- I'm aware of the
17 language, but I want to understand what the
18 meaning is of that language. This, in essence,
19 would be a message sent to Suffolk County that
20 this is what these five towns want to do but
21 have no more message than that; and then, if
22 there's anything that's going to occur, Suffolk
23 County would have to be involved as a whole -
2918
1 SENATOR LAVALLE: No.
2 SENATOR ABATE: -- and be
3 involved in this determination.
4 SENATOR LAVALLE: No, no. I
5 mean, we would come back and ask that a special
6 -- by special act of this Legislature, that the
7 county of Peconic be created.
8 SENATOR ABATE: I see. So, I
9 mean, I'm sure you have every reason to believe
10 that the residents of the five towns would want
11 their own county because there must be some
12 benefit, financial benefit or other benefit that
13 would be afforded to them.
14 SENATOR LAVALLE: You know,
15 Senator, Senator Leichter said well, he could-
16 that this will pass and, you know, without a
17 doubt.
18 You know, part of the nature of
19 the East End is the great independence that they
20 have and I would say nothing is predictable. I
21 mean, it's the one place where we have and have
22 had, at one juncture, two independent parties,
23 the Southampton party, and the Southold party,
2919
1 running, electing supervisors in their
2 respective towns outside of the traditional
3 parties of Republican, Conservative and
4 Democratic parties.
5 So, I would make a strong
6 assumption that based on the feasibility study
7 and the number of hearings and meetings that
8 were held, that it would receive strong support,
9 but you never know, because of that independent
10 nature of the people of the East End.
11 SENATOR ABATE: Why is this
12 legislation necessary for a feasibility study to
13 occur or the five towns on their own to get a
14 sense of whether they would be in favor of such
15 a creation?
16 SENATOR LAVALLE: The
17 legislation that has been before this body for
18 many, many years and all the discussions were
19 that there would be a referendum to ask the
20 people whether a new county should be created
21 and that's why this step was included in the
22 process.
23 SENATOR ABATE: And so you
2920
1 interpret if we vote for this bill and support
2 the ability of them to decide what they wanted
3 to do, that does not mean we as a body take a
4 position that we favor a separate county of
5 Peconic.
6 SENATOR LAVALLE: No. I think -
7 SENATOR ABATE: Because many of
8 us feel that we're not in that position because
9 we need to be able to look at what would be the
10 negative impacts on the entire county of
11 Suffolk. There may be benefits to the five
12 towns and extraordinarily negative impacts to
13 the other areas and certainly their voices need
14 to be heard. I know there's dispute around
15 that, but I see this, and if you agree, Senator,
16 if this passes, this is not an indication from
17 this body that we support a creation of a new
18 county.
19 SENATOR LAVALLE: No, no, I
20 think the legislation and the language in the
21 legislation is very, very clear and very
22 specific about that, that we have to come back a
23 second time. That's why Senator Dollinger was
2921
1 very, very specific in his remarks when he said
2 he would support this legislation but would
3 withhold a final judgment if and when a bill
4 came before this body again to actually create
5 the Peconic County.
6 SENATOR ABATE: And just one last
7 question, if you would yield to another
8 question.
9 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
10 SENATOR ABATE: The feasibility
11 study, did it look at the benefits and negative
12 impacts on the county as a whole?
13 SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, it did.
14 It talked about the impact on Suffolk County
15 itself, Senator, and talked about the
16 contribution -- Peconic County would continue to
17 make a contribution of debt service for a set
18 period of time on the properties and the debt
19 that has been incurred on behalf of the East
20 End; it talks about the number of services and
21 so forth that would not be included in a Suffolk
22 County government so that that would be
23 downsized somewhat; and that the implications in
2922
1 Suffolk, while I don't have figures, I think are
2 about neutral for the county of Suffolk as a
3 whole, but it has a definite positive benefit
4 for the East End because of the government that
5 they create, a much smaller government on the
6 East End, which is what people have wanted there
7 for many, many years and the lower salaries that
8 people who would be employees would be
9 receiving, and so forth and so on.
10 So, while -- but I think you
11 have put it in a proper perspective. When you
12 have a referendum, there is no doubt that this
13 kind of issue is going to be debated within the
14 county as a whole and that people will be
15 looking probably in a more fine-tuned way, at
16 some of the implications on the five western
17 towns.
18 So the answer is yes, they did
19 look at the five western towns, but certainly
20 not in the depth that maybe some people would
21 have liked and maybe people could draw other
22 assumptions on a study that was broader in
23 scope. I don't know. I really don't know the
2923
1 answer to that. My sense is what the study
2 concludes is that the impact on the rest of
3 Suffolk really would be none to negligible.
4 SENATOR ABATE: On the bill.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
6 Senator Abate, on the bill.
7 SENATOR ABATE: I may be right
8 or wrong on this issue, but the way the issue
9 was just clarified, while I have enormous
10 reservations around the advisability of a new
11 county, while it may have beneficial impacts on
12 the five towns, it may have severe negative
13 impacts on the entire county, and I don't think
14 before decisions can be rendered can we over
15 look the impacts on the majority of the people
16 in Suffolk County and take that into
17 consideration.
18 My understanding of this bill,
19 though, is the opportunity for the five towns to
20 voice their opinion, no more and no less. So, in
21 that limited respect, I can support this
22 legislation with the understanding that on the
23 larger issue, the merits of creating a new
2924
1 county will be reserved for another debate.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read
3 the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This
5 act shall take effect on the 180th day.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
7 Call the roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
10 Results.
11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded
12 in the negative on Calendar 527 are Senators
13 Connor, Kruger, Lachman, Lack, Leichter,
14 Paterson, Smith, Stavisky and Trunzo.
15 Ayes 46, nays 9.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
17 bill is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 528, by
19 Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 4294, an act to
20 amend the General Municipal Law, in relation to
21 establishing the town of Huntington Industrial
22 Development Agency.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
2925
1 home rule message is at the desk.
2 Read the last section.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
5 Explanation has been asked for.
6 Senator Marcellino.
7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Mr.
8 President. This bill seeks to amend the General
9 Municipal Law adding a new section 907-D to
10 establish the town of Huntington, county of
11 Suffolk, Industrial Development Agency in the
12 county of Suffolk. It has been introduced at
13 the request of the Huntington Town Board and
14 represents an effort by the town of Huntington
15 to provide for itself the ability to effectively
16 plan for its future economic growth.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read
18 the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll.)
2926
1 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
2 Announce the results.
3 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded
4 in the negative on Calendar 528 are Senators
5 Leichter and Stachowski. Ayes 53, nays 2.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Bill
7 is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 590, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5362A, an
10 act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991,
11 amending the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law and
12 Chapter 912 of the Laws of 1920.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
14 this legislation extends the provisions relating
15 to the licensing of ticket brokers until June
16 1st, 1997.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
18 Senator Paterson.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
20 President, the explanation was excellent.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
23 Senator Dollinger.
2927
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you know
2 if any of those ticket brokers have any tickets
3 for that event in East Rutherford this weekend
4 that I can get for cheap?
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Ask Senator
6 DeFrancisco. We are rooting for Syracuse.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Absolutely.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Read
9 the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: Call
13 the roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK: The
17 bill is passed.
18 Senator Tully.
19 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
20 President. May we return to motions and
21 resolutions?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
23 Yes. Without objection, motions and
2928
1 resolutions.
2 SENATOR TULLY: On behalf of
3 Senator Saland, on page 39, I offer the
4 following amendments to Calendar Number 391,
5 Senate Print 2595, and ask that said bill retain
6 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
8 Amendments are accepted.
9 Senator Skelos, that completes
10 the controversial reading of the calendar.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
12 is there any other housekeeping at the desk?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
14 There is none.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: On behalf of
16 Senator Bruno, I would like to announce that
17 there will be a Majority conference at 10:00
18 a.m. on Friday.
19 There being no further business,
20 I move we adjourn until Friday, March 29th, 1996
21 at 11:00 a.m. sharp.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT HOBLOCK:
23 There will be a Majority conference at 10:00
2929
1 a.m., Friday, March 29th, and we will adjourn
2 until Friday, March 29th, at 11:00 a.m. sharp.
3 (Whereupon, at 12:34 p.m., the
4 Senate adjourned.)
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