Regular Session - April 2, 1996
3012
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 April 2, 1996
10 11:03 a.m.
11
12
13 REGULAR SESSION
14
15
16
17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
19
20
21
22
23
3013
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
3 come to order.
4 Will everyone please rise and
5 join me in the Pledge of Allegiance.
6 (Whereupon, the Senate and those
7 present joined in the Pledge of Allegiance to
8 the Flag.)
9 May we bow our heads in a moment
10 of silence.
11 (Whereupon, there was a moment of
12 silence.)
13 The reading of the Journal,
14 please.
15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
16 Monday, April 1. The Senate met pursuant to
17 adjournment. The Journal of Sunday, March 31,
18 was read and approved. On motion, Senate
19 adjourned.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Without
21 objection, the Journal stands approved as read.
22 Presentation of petitions.
23 Messages from the Assembly.
3014
1 Messages from the Governor.
2 Reports of standing committees.
3 Reports of select committees.
4 Communications and reports from
5 state officers.
6 Motions and resolutions.
7 Senator Marcellino.
8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Madam
9 President. On page number 14, I offer the
10 following amendments to Senator Lack's bill,
11 Calendar Number 386, Senate Print Number 5954,
12 and ask that said bill retain its place on the
13 Third Reading Calendar.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
15 received.
16 Senator Skelos.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Move that we
18 adopt the resolution calendar.
19 THE PRESIDENT: All those in
20 favor, signify by saying aye.
21 (Response of "Aye.")
22 Opposed, nay.
23 (There was no response.)
3015
1 Calendar is adopted.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam
3 President. At this time, I believe Senator
4 DeFrancisco has a privileged resolution. I ask
5 that you recognize him.
6 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
7 DeFrancisco.
8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. Madam
9 President, I rise to speak on behalf of this
10 resolution, and it's pertaining to the Syracuse
11 Orangemen and their success in the tournament,
12 the NCAA tournament, including the Final Four,
13 and I request that just the title be read.
14 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
15 will read.
16 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
17 DeFrancisco, Legislative Resolution, honoring
18 the Syracuse University's Men's Varsity
19 Basketball Team and Coach Boeheim for their
20 outstanding 1995-96 season culminating in a
21 victory against Mississippi State in the Final
22 Four of the NCAA Tournament to advance to the
23 final game of the competition.
3016
1 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I rise to
2 commend this great basketball team which has
3 really done some wonderful things for the City
4 of Syracuse. The community has come together
5 like I've never seen it before. Actually, I saw
6 it come together before one last time like this
7 back in 1987, when we lost in a last four
8 second shot by somebody who will remain
9 nameless. But on both of these occasions, this
10 team has shown the spirit that we think all
11 Central New Yorkers have.
12 Although the team last night came
13 a little bit short, they certainly ran out of
14 gas because of the onslaught of the Kentucky
15 Wild Cats, but they didn't run out of heart.
16 They played as hard as they could for as long as
17 they could, and within four minutes to the end
18 of the game, they were still within two points,
19 what very few teams have done with this fine
20 Kentucky team.
21 I am proud to be from Central New
22 York. I'm proud to have participated in
23 interscholastic sports at Syracuse University,
3017
1 and I'm very proud to have attended and watched
2 a wonderful team bring a community together, and
3 I commend the members and also Coach Boeheim,
4 and I am going to invite them to the State
5 Senate to be honored, at a later date.
6 Thank you.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
8 Senator. I will bring a Mississippi mud pie to
9 the team, the sweet spoils of victory in their
10 Final Four.
11 The question is on the
12 resolution.
13 All those in favor, signify by
14 saying aye.
15 (Response of "Aye.")
16 All those opposed, nay.
17 (There was no response.)
18 The resolution is passed.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: With Senator
20 DeFrancisco's consent, we can put all the
21 members on the resolution.
22 THE PRESIDENT: All members will
23 be listed as cosponsors.
3018
1 Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: At this time,
3 there will be an immediate meeting of the
4 Transportation Committee in the Majority
5 Conference Room. Just for information,
6 following that, Commerce, Economic Development,
7 Small Businesses will meet; then Energy and
8 Telecommunications; then Social services. But
9 we will call each one individually as each
10 meeting ends.
11 If we could take up the
12 noncontroversial calendar at this time.
13 I believe we have a substitution.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will
15 read.
16 THE SECRETARY: On page 5,
17 Senator Volker moves to discharge from the
18 Committee on Codes, Assembly bill 7545A and
19 substitute it for identical Senate Bill 3785A.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Substitution
21 ordered.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam
23 President. At this time, if we could take up
3019
1 the noncontroversial calendar.
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
3 will read.
4 THE SECRETARY: On page 11,
5 Calendar Number 301, by Senator Goodman, Senate
6 Print 1695B, an act to amend the Transportation
7 Law, in relation to increasing penalties for
8 violating the motor carrier certificate.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
10 section, please.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
12 act shall take effect on the first day of
13 November.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll.)
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43.
17 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
18 passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 569, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 6259, an
21 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
22 relation to changing the color of certain police
23 vehicles offered for resale.
3020
1 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
2 section, please.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43.
8 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
9 passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 575, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 6336, an
12 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in
13 relation to revision of mass transportation
14 services in the county of Tompkins.
15 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
16 section, please.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll.)
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
22 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
23 passed.
3021
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 576, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 6368, an
3 act to amend Chapter 356 of the Laws of 1994,
4 amending the Erie County Tax Act.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
6 section, please.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
13 passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 587, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 6108, an
16 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to
17 extending the tourism promotion fee in the
18 county of Nassau.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
20 section, please.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
22 act shall take effect immediately.
23 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
3022
1 (The Secretary called the roll.)
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
3 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
4 passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 589, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 6283, an
7 act to amend Section 7 of Chapter 587 of the
8 Laws of 1995, relating to authorizing the
9 conveyance of certain lands to the Brooklyn
10 Academy of Music.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
12 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside,
13 please.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 596, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4010, an act
16 to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation
17 to authorizing and establishing compensation for
18 members of the Genesee Valley Regional Market
19 Authority.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
21 section, please.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
23 act shall take effect immediately.
3023
1 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47.
4 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
5 passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 599, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 6206, an
8 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
9 relation to allowing the Town of Hannibal to
10 contract with the Onondaga County Water
11 Authority.
12 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
13 section, please.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47.
19 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
20 passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 625, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 6686,
23 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
3024
1 Law, in relation to authorizing cities within
2 the County of Nassau to qualify as a planning
3 unit.
4 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
5 section, please.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47.
11 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
12 passed.
13 That completes the
14 noncontroversial calendar.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam
16 President. At this time, if we could take up
17 Senator Goodman's bill, Calendar Number 589.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Secretary will
19 read.
20 THE SECRETARY: On page 29,
21 Calendar Number 589, by Senator Goodman, Senate
22 Print 6283, an act to amend Section 7 of Chapter
23 587 of the Laws of 1995, relating to authorizing
3025
1 the conveyance of certain lands to the Brooklyn
2 Academy of Music.
3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Saland.
4 SENATOR SALAND: Would it be
5 appropriate before Senator Goodman takes up his
6 bill if I did a bit of housekeeping?
7 SENATOR SKELOS: We're on the
8 bill now, Senator. We have to wait a minute.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Goodman.
10 SENATOR GOODMAN: Madam
11 President. This bill relates to the Brooklyn
12 Academy of Music's desire to obtain a piece of
13 land. A bill regarding this transaction had
14 previously passed in this house. Chapter 587 in
15 1995 was enacted to enable BAM, a not-for-profit
16 organization, to enter into discussion with the
17 Office of General Services and the Office of
18 Mental Health for the purchase of the real
19 property in question. At this time, it appears
20 that the parties involved will require longer
21 than the one-year period granted by the original
22 bill to work out the particulars of the
23 purchase. This legislation would merely grant
3026
1 the parties an extra year in which to come to an
2 agreement.
3 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
4 Senator Goodman.
5 Read the last section, please.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
11 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
12 passed.
13 Senator Saland.
14 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Madam
15 President. Please remove the sponsor star from
16 Senate 2575A, Calendar 391.
17 THE PRESIDENT: The star is
18 removed.
19 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam
21 President. If we could stand at ease now for a
22 few moments, we can get the committee meetings
23 going. Commerce Economic Development will not
3027
1 be meeting. If the members of the Energy
2 Committee could start moving over to the
3 Majority Conference Room, we could commence that
4 meeting as soon as Transportation finishes.
5 Then there will be a Social
6 Services meeting, and then after that a Tourism
7 Committee meeting.
8 So, temporarily, we will stand at
9 ease.
10 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
11 stand at ease.
12 (Whereupon, at 11:14 a.m., the
13 Senate was at ease.)
14 (Whereupon, at 11:21 a.m., Senate
15 reconvened.)
16 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
17 Recognize Senator Skelos.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an
19 immediate meeting of Senate Energy Committee in
20 Room 123 of the Capitol and the Tourism
21 Committee is going to meet in the lobby right
22 outside our chambers right here, for a very
23 important matter.
3028
1 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
2 Skelos, we have a motion at the desk.
3 Senator Farley.
4 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
5 President. I wish to call up Senator Johnson's
6 bill, which is 5830, which was recalled from the
7 Assembly, which is now at the desk.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
9 Secretary will read.
10 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
11 Johnson, Senate Print 5830, an act to amend the
12 Environmental Conservation Law, in relation to
13 permitting certain additional persons to obtain
14 commercial lobster permits.
15 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President.
16 I now move to reconsider the vote by which this
17 bill was passed.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
19 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
20 (The Secretary called the roll on
21 reconsideration.)
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
3029
1 bill is before the house.
2 Senator Farley.
3 SENATOR FARLEY: I now offer the
4 following amendments.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
6 Amendments received.
7 Senator Skelos.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
9 The Social Services Committee will meet in the
10 Majority Conference Room following the
11 Transportation Committee meeting.
12 (Whereupon, at 11:22 a.m., the
13 Senate was at ease.)
14 (Whereupon, at 11:24 a.m., the
15 Senate reconvened.)
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
18 Recognize Senator Skelos.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Just as a
20 reminder to the members. The Transportation
21 Committee is meeting now in the Majority
22 Conference Room. Following that meeting, the
23 Social Services Committee will meet in the
3030
1 Majority Conference Room. Tourism is meeting
2 out in the lobby right now on a nomination, and
3 Energy Committee is meeting in 123 of the
4 Capitol, and the Senate will stand in recess
5 until 2:15 this afternoon.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Thank
7 you, Senator Skelos.
8 The Senate is in recess until
9 2:15 this afternoon.
10 (Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the
11 Senate recessed.)
12 (Whereupon, at 2:55 p.m., Senate
13 reconvened.)
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate
15 will come to order.
16 Chair recognizes Senator Skelos.
17 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
18 If we could return to motions and resolutions, I
19 believe Senator Farley has a motion to make.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Return to
21 motions and resolutions.
22 Chair recognizes Senator Farley.
23 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
3031
1 President. On behalf of Senator Libous, on page
2 33, I offer the following amendments to Calendar
3 191, Senate Print 5724, and I ask that that bill
4 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 amendments to Calendar Number 191 are received
7 and adopted. The bill will retain its place on
8 the Third Reading Calendar.
9 Senator Skelos.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
11 If we could take up Calendar Number 170, Senate
12 2964A, by Senator Cook.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We will
14 go to the order of the Calendar.
15 Secretary will read Calendar
16 Number 170.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 170, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 2964A, an act
19 to amend the Tax Law, in relation to imposing a
20 sales and compensating use tax on commissaries
21 in correctional facilities.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Paterson.
3032
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Cook, an explanation, a very long one, has been
4 asked for by Senator Paterson.
5 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President.
6 This bill which is Senate Bill 2964A -- it's an
7 "A" because it's been amended -- is cosponsored
8 by Senators DeFrancisco, DiCarlo, Farley,
9 Hannon, Kuhl, Larkin, Libous, Maltese, Present,
10 Saland, Sears, Seward, Trunzo and Velella, and
11 it provides that the State of New York and the
12 other municipalities would benefit from
13 collecting sales tax from taxable items which
14 are sold in prison commissaries and in
15 commissaries of jails that are operated by
16 counties and/or cities within the State of New
17 York.
18 That tax generally is 4 percent
19 state tax, and varies somewhat from one county
20 to another, and some counties being 4 percent or
21 other counties being 3 or 2 percent, and in some
22 counties it's even higher than 4 percent, so it
23 does vary a little bit on the way that it would
3033
1 impact on different counties.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Paterson.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
5 President. I would wonder if Senator Cook would
6 yield and be willing for me at this time to ask
7 a couple of questions that have been just kind
8 of -
9 SENATOR COOK: Senator, probably
10 for an hour or so, if you would like.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Cook yields, Senator Paterson.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: For an hour?
14 Mr. President. I hope that will
15 be enough time because I have a lot of
16 questions.
17 SENATOR COOK: I admire you,
18 Senator, for being able to find that many
19 questions to ask in an hour.
20 SENATOR GOLD: I'll help you with
21 the -
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you. So
23 if there's anyone not only within this chamber
3034
1 but within the sound of my voice that wants to
2 share as much about this issue as I do, people
3 who are in offices listening on the box or
4 people here, gather around. Get closer
5 together.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Gold, why do you rise?
9 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator
10 yield?
11 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President.
12 Point of order.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Paterson,
14 are you speaking for yourself or everybody on
15 that side?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Paterson, excuse me. Senator Gold is rising and
18 I'm not going to recognize him because he's not
19 in his chair, and that will settle that.
20 But in any case, are you through
21 with your answer to Senator Paterson's question,
22 Senator Cook?
23 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
3035
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Paterson, you do have the floor.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: I was saying
4 that we should all get closer together to think
5 about this issue, so all of you who are
6 listening and all of you who are concerned
7 welcome to Senate rehab. All you need do for
8 the next hour is get up. You don't have to
9 engage in the regular formalities. Just get up
10 and say your first name, like, "Hi! My name is
11 Manny. I can't think of anything else to do
12 right now, so I'm just going to walk around the
13 chamber."
14 Actually, Senator Cook, I do have
15 some questions and let me get started right now.
16 I would like to know how many -
17 how much revenues do you think that this piece
18 of legislation that you either thought up or
19 took from Senator Nozzolio because I see he has
20 a bill of similar virtue -- how much revenue do
21 you think that this will bring into the state?
22 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. I
23 trust that the good Senator isn't accusing me of
3036
1 larceny on this bill. But that -- being that as
2 it may, our numbers from the State Corrections
3 Department indicate that it would generate about
4 $640,000 in revenue for the state. Our
5 estimates for localities is it would be about
6 $480,000. Now, that's only the numbers that
7 relate to the state facilities themselves.
8 The bill also applies to local
9 facilities, and we have attempted to get
10 estimates. The Corrections Department can not
11 supply us with that information. They say they
12 don't have any aggregate numbers of how much is
13 sold in the local commissaries, but we're
14 guessing that it may be a comparable amount.
15 There are -- the population -- the aggregate
16 population of the local facilities is somewhat
17 larger than the aggregate population of the
18 state facilities; but, on the other hand, the
19 prisoners are there for shorter periods of time
20 so we're assuming they may not be purchasing the
21 same quantities of goods as would prisoners in
22 state facilities.
23 So all things being equal, we're
3037
1 assuming that the amount of sales tax collected
2 from inmates in local facilities would be rather
3 comparable to what is collected in state
4 facilities which, as I said, is $640,000 from
5 state facilities. Now, if you double that,
6 that's a $1,280,000 that we would be collecting
7 at the state level. It is double of $480,000 or
8 $960,000 that would be accruing to the benefit
9 of local governments.
10 And I would say, Senator
11 Paterson, and this I assume would be something
12 you would be quite interested in, New York City,
13 since it has a higher sales tax than many other
14 municipalities and also since its prison
15 population at its local facilities is higher per
16 capita, perhaps, than other municipality, would
17 probably collect a larger proportion of that
18 roughly two million dollars than would other
19 municipalities in the state, so it would be
20 beneficial to the City of New York, as well.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Paterson.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, thank you,
3038
1 Mr. President. If Senator Cook would continue
2 to yield?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Cook, do you continue to yield?
5 SENATOR COOK: Of course.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Senator yields.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator Cook,
9 how are the funds that inmates in our
10 correctional facilities -- how do they get in
11 the hands of the inmates right now? I would
12 assume, from different tasks they perform, work
13 that they do that is within the actual
14 facility.
15 And I guess I would like to add
16 to that is who determines how much money they
17 receive for performing these functions?
18 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. I
19 believe -- and I stand to be corrected on this,
20 but I believe it's about a 50 cents an hour
21 payment that's made to prisoners for work that
22 they perform while in prison. It is, of course,
23 and unfortunately, I might add, a minority of
3039
1 prisoners who are perhaps not of -- perhaps it's
2 not their fault, but it's only a minority of
3 them who are actually employed in the prisons,
4 so most of the prisoners who would be spending
5 money in the commissaries would be deriving
6 their funds from some source other than from
7 work they actually do within the prison system.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Paterson.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
11 Senator.
12 While I was listening to your
13 answer, Senator Abate was by to tell us that
14 when she was in prison, it was 16 cents to 50 -
15 I'm sorry, when she managed the facilities, it
16 was 16 cents to about 50 cents.
17 The reason I ask you this
18 question, Senator Cook, is that I would assume
19 that the heads of the facilities in concert with
20 criminal justice experts and people who are
21 familiar with Corrections would set the amount
22 that they feel it would be appropriate for the
23 inmates to receive so that they can make certain
3040
1 purchases right within the system and that they
2 don't have an excess of money, so, in other
3 words, it's kind of a regulated amount of money
4 that they would have; is that not correct?
5 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I think
6 that there is an effort, has historically been
7 an effort to set the compensation in such a
8 manner that it gives some return to the
9 prisoners, recognizes, of course -- and I say
10 this almost tongue in cheek that they have free
11 room and board, but that they have an amount of
12 money which they can utilize in some reasonable
13 manner to make purchases, small purchases. At
14 the same time, we're not paying them $12 an hour
15 so that you can to go prison and have a great
16 job so that you can support your family on it.
17 That's not really the purpose of prison.
18 The purpose is to simply
19 compensate the prisoner, to some degree, for the
20 work that they perform, and, fortunately, I
21 would say there is a certain amount of
22 rehabilitative value to the work that the
23 prisoners do. I think that not only do they
3041
1 perform very useful functions but they also
2 learn job skills while they are doing it.
3 And I would say that we had one
4 very interesting situation at Eastern where
5 these folks learned something quite valuable,
6 because they worked on the electrical system and
7 learned where the tunnels were and found out how
8 to get over the wall, so in the process of their
9 employment they indeed picked up some very
10 useful skills.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Paterson.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: That's quite
14 interesting, Senator. If you would continue to
15 yield, I have another question.
16 SENATOR COOK: Yes, I will
17 yield. Yes, sure.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, you
19 are aware that some inmates -- the monies that
20 they collect actually goes into the crime
21 victims system and that they actually make
22 payments into that whole institution, as well.
23 Is that not correct?
3042
1 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I -- I am
2 assuming that since you say that that it's
3 correct, although I must confess out of my own
4 knowledge, I don't know that.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
6 Therefore, Senator, what I guess
7 I'm leading up to -- and I'm sure everyone here
8 is guessing what I'm leading up to -- is that
9 with the amount of resources that could be
10 returned to the state with the adoption of this
11 law, the fact is that since this is a regulated,
12 in a sense, payment system and we've determined
13 that this is about the amount of money that
14 inmates should have, then would it not be very
15 possible that after we adopt this law there will
16 be, in a sense, another change that would be
17 made to increase the amount of money that is in
18 the pockets of inmates to, in a sense, offset
19 the amount that would be paid back into the
20 state for sales tax?
21 SENATOR COOK: Senator, that may
22 well be, but I think we have to understand that
23 this is an institutional store; that it does not
3043
1 have the usually costs that are connected with
2 running a business. Obviously, they don't have
3 rents and other kinds of business costs
4 associated with running a business. They also
5 -- since there usually are inmates who are
6 running the store, their labor costs are
7 relatively modest, so they already are getting a
8 pretty good bargain on this material. If, for
9 example, they had to rely upon their families to
10 purchase these items and bring them in to them,
11 it would cost the families much more than that
12 if they had to buy it on the market outside and
13 bring it in to them than it cost them.
14 Incidentally, Senator, there's a
15 very interesting -- something -- you might be
16 interested in a little aside on this, since
17 we're trying to find something to talk about. I
18 understand that in certain European nations that
19 used to be behind the Iron curtain -- and I
20 don't know whether this is still the practice -
21 that families actually had to bring the food
22 into the hospitals, so that if you were a
23 patient in a hospital, your family had to
3044
1 provide you with the food. So I guess we're
2 pretty liberal and pretty generous in our prison
3 institutions because we don't require the
4 families to bring the food to the prisoners
5 while they are there.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Senator,
9 we were thinking of Dickens and Tale of Two
10 Cities where that same situation happened,
11 except in my case if I were in the hospital, it
12 might have been the food that my family gave me
13 that put me there, so that just would have
14 exacerbated the problem.
15 But one of the items that
16 prisoners often seek when they are going to the
17 store right in the facilities are cigarettes,
18 and I was just wondering with the sales tax on
19 cigarettes but also the additional taxes that we
20 have, kind of a sin tax for the purchase of
21 these items, is there any provision in the
22 legislation that would add to the tax on some of
23 these items that were already -- for individuals
3045
1 who are outside of a facility who are not
2 incarcerated that we are trying to in a sense
3 through our tax system discourage this kind of
4 activity, that perhaps we might be including a
5 provision in this bill to do that, particularly
6 with individuals we're trying to rehabilitate?
7 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I'm not
8 altogether clear on exactly the question, but I
9 think I got the drift of it, which is, should we
10 add an additional tax to what we charge for
11 cigarettes within the prison in order to
12 discourage use by prisoners of tobacco? Is that
13 kind of the drift you're going?
14 Well, this bill doesn't address
15 that issue, Senator. Obviously, it is a health
16 concern, and it does seem a little bit ironic
17 that we spend a great deal of money on our
18 health systems within the prisons to help
19 rehabilitate the prisoners who are ill and at
20 the same time we sell them something like
21 cigarettes which cause them to be ill, so it is
22 a little strange. But, quite frankly, even
23 though that's an issue, it's not the issue of
3046
1 this bill.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Paterson.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
5 Senator. If the Senator would continue to
6 yield.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Cook, do you continue to yield?
9 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 yields.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Just looking
13 at the issue of sales tax in general, Senator,
14 would it not be a correct statement that sales
15 tax by its nature inherently is regressive and,
16 therefore, would hurt those who are least able
17 to accumulate wealth?
18 And since we have a regulated
19 system in our incarcerational facilities that,
20 therefore, the sales taxes, in a sense, being
21 applied disproportionately because of the meager
22 wages that these individuals are actually able
23 to obtain, not that we have to be fair to them,
3047
1 but the fact is that it is going to garner a
2 higher percentage of the value that they are
3 able to accrue and, therefore, in a sense are
4 not going to be able to have the resources that
5 they had before, much the same as it would be
6 with individuals who are at the lower income
7 scales.
8 Do you think that there is an apt
9 comparison with people who are being
10 incarcerated in our state penitentiaries that
11 the sales tax acts in a disproportionate and
12 regressive manner?
13 SENATOR COOK: Senator,
14 fortunately, the prison system is probably as
15 close to a pure communism as has ever existed in
16 the world because everybody gets paid the same
17 regardless of what they do, as long as they
18 work, at least that's my understanding. So
19 since the wage of everybody is the same, I guess
20 the sales tax is the same on everybody who pays
21 it, so it's not regressive within the context of
22 the prison population itself.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: That raises a
3048
1 question, Senator. Are prisoners allowed to
2 have any other resources than just the ones that
3 are awarded due to this work that they perform
4 while in the facility?
5 SENATOR COOK: Well, we don't
6 confiscate, except in certain cases -- depending
7 upon the crime for which the person has been
8 convicted, of course, we don't confiscate their
9 resources; and, in fact, there are within the
10 prison system, as you know, some rather wealthy
11 people and, presumably, they could have
12 resources to spend in the commissary that would
13 go beyond what other people would have. I think
14 we have to concede that.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I
16 wasn't actually speaking to the net worth of the
17 inmate. I was thinking more in terms of what we
18 allow them to have at the actual facility
19 itself.
20 SENATOR COOK: Do you mean are
21 prisoners permitted to have possessions?
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Correct.
23 Other than the ones that they might receive as
3049
1 wages for the work that they perform while -
2 SENATOR COOK: Yes, a prisoner -
3 Senator, some prisoners, as you tour prisons,
4 you find that their cells are rather handsomely
5 furnished, and this is not something that they
6 have particularly purchased at the prison
7 commissary, but they are things that they have
8 gotten permission to bring into the prison, and,
9 after all, if somebody is there for the major
10 part of their lifetime, they do accumulate a few
11 items of personal property.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Paterson.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Actually,
15 Senator, I'm informed by counsel, quite learned
16 counsel, that any excess funds that are in the
17 possession of the inmate at the time the
18 incarceration commences are actually deposited
19 into the commissary account, so there are no
20 extra funds. So, actually, your earlier
21 statement is exactly correct that it is close to
22 a pure form of communism, not that you nor I
23 should be accused of advocating for it here, but
3050
1 the point is that just -- this is -- is an issue
2 I was just asking in terms of what the total
3 resources of the inmate -
4 SENATOR COOK: We're talking
5 about cash resources, Senator, as opposed -- I
6 was interpreting your question as meaning
7 whether they were able to possess items, and I
8 have seen prison cells which had various kinds
9 of furnishings that were apparently brought into
10 the prison with the permission of the facility.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, do
12 you think that this system that we would adopt
13 by which we charge sales tax to the inmates
14 would encourage cash-only transactions in the
15 institution?
16 SENATOR COOK: I would assume so,
17 Senator. It might actually create a situation
18 in which, when you purchase something for a
19 dollar, you might actually have to give them
20 either the nickel and the three pennies or the
21 eight pennies to go into a special container for
22 payment of the sales tax.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3051
1 Paterson.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Actually, what
3 I was getting at, Senator, was the fact that
4 since the wealthier prisoners would be able to
5 add money to their commissary accounts through
6 their family's deposit and through other outside
7 resources, it would create in a sense sort of a
8 black market account, whereby those prisoners
9 would probably work in concert with the
10 prisoners who have lesser resources to create
11 the situation to, in a sense, go around the
12 sales tax. Since the prisoners who have lesser
13 value because they are only deriving it from the
14 work that they do, they would then have to
15 interact with those who could fund these
16 accounts on the outside. Now, that's a
17 possibility, but maybe your bill addresses it by
18 taxing the commissary account, and I was
19 wondering if you did have a solution for that.
20 SENATOR COOK: Senator, it
21 doesn't tax the commissary account. It only
22 taxes the actual purchases that are made from
23 the commissary. As I understand, the commissary
3052
1 account is like a debit card. It's an amount -
2 it's an amount against which purchases can be
3 made, and the account is actually credited each
4 time a purchase is made against that amount.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: You know the
8 reason that I raise that question, Senator, is
9 because since there are limited choices in the
10 commissary account and we think that the
11 commissary account may become, in a sense, the
12 foil of this entire legislation because it
13 becomes almost a viaduct to avoidance of the
14 actual intent of the legislation, it leads me to
15 believe that perhaps there would be added
16 pressure exerted by the inmates to widen the
17 variety of opportunity in terms of sales in the
18 commissary account which could have greater cost
19 to the state and cut into the $640,000 of
20 resources that would be provided for in this
21 bill.
22 SENATOR ABATE: (Speaking to
23 Senator Paterson) Instead of one kind of
3053
1 shampoo, they may have to offer now twelve.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: You know, Mr.
3 President, I don't mind being the puppet, but I
4 don't want the strings to show.
5 (Laughter.)
6 The point is that -- this has
7 really been bothering me, Senator, and I need to
8 know if there's any way that this legislation
9 will cause the correctional system to spend more
10 money that would diminish from the total
11 resources that would be derived from passing
12 this bill, and I need to know that as soon as
13 possible, Senator, because it's really bothering
14 me.
15 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President. I
16 think we have to stop for a moment and clarify
17 the difference between a commissary account and
18 the actual sales made by the commissary.
19 As I understand it, Senator, as I
20 enter prison, I may have $100 and I may
21 surrender that at the time I enter the facility
22 and it goes into my commissary account.
23 I then buy ten candy bars, and I
3054
1 pay the sales tax on the ten candy bars, so that
2 entire amount of the purchase is then credited
3 against my $100.
4 So that the $100 in my commissary
5 account doesn't have anything to do with how
6 much I spend and how much sales tax I pay when
7 the item is purchased.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator,
9 it seems to me that one of the possible
10 detriments of the legislation is that it
11 enhances and continues a circumstance that has
12 continued in prisons all through the years -- it
13 was written about in Fleeta; it was written
14 about in Blackstone -- this whole idea of
15 survival of the fittest, that those who have the
16 greatest resources bully and victimize those who
17 have the least. And this sales tax system,
18 since it will cut deeper into the wages of the
19 inmate will allow those inmates who have greater
20 resources and greater contacts outside to
21 control the flow of barter within the
22 institution through the use of cigarettes and
23 shampoos and other mechanisms of conversion to
3055
1 actually avoid the sales tax and, in a sense, go
2 around the prison store and subject those who
3 have the lesser to a greater type of
4 victimization, because now what we're really
5 allowing is a sort of preferential treatment for
6 those inmates who have greater resources, and I
7 was wondering if that is something that
8 actually, you know, is a possibility.
9 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I'm not
10 clear on exactly the point you are trying to
11 make.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Neither am I,
13 Senator.
14 SENATOR COOK: Is your point
15 that -
16 SENATOR PATERSON: That's why I'm
17 asking. I want you to clarify my point.
18 SENATOR COOK: Okay.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: And then I
20 want you to answer.
21 SENATOR COOK: I'll clarify your
22 point, Senator. If your point is as I think I
23 understand it that persons who are -
3056
1 (There was a pause.)
2 Senator, while you scratch your
3 head, you have to also rub your belly. If you
4 can do that, you're all right.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, this
6 question comes to us from a viewer very close
7 by.
8 SENATOR COOK: Is that a viewer
9 or a voyeur? A viewer?
10 SENATOR PATERSON: And we were
11 wondering, just to make sure, that the revenues
12 that are going to be derived from this bill are
13 going to go directly to the counties from which
14 the court action that convicted the inmate in
15 the first place. So, in other words, this will
16 not be something that will realize revenues
17 disproportionately to certain regions but,
18 rather, will return the resources to the areas
19 where the crimes were committed; in other words,
20 the home county that the individual inmate was
21 inevitably convicted. Is that correct?
22 SENATOR COOK: Senator, that's a
23 very good question because -- and I'm really
3057
1 glad you asked it.
2 You may remember I have another
3 bill which requires that the state pay to the
4 locality a dollar a year for each of its inmates
5 to cover the cost of fire protection. There
6 are, in fact, certain services that local
7 governments have to provide because there is a
8 prison within their boundaries and for which
9 they can derive no revenue; and while the
10 argument is sometimes made that the prison in
11 itself constitutes an economic benefit for the
12 community, the fact is that there is on the part
13 of the local government a lay out of certain
14 funds for which they are able to get no return.
15 One of the things which this bill
16 would do, since the local sales tax revenue
17 would go back to the county in which the
18 facility is located, would be to help reimburse
19 them to some degree for the outlay of funds
20 which they have to make to support the fact that
21 there is a prison located within their
22 community.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3058
1 Paterson.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, in
3 terms of the amount of sales tax, we are going
4 to charge the state rate, are we not?
5 SENATOR COOK: We're going to
6 charge the state and local rate.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Earlier, you
8 said what was interesting about the whole
9 institutional process when it comes to the
10 penitentiaries is the fact that we have a kind
11 of regulated system where some of the items that
12 are purchased are actually less. In other
13 words, as you said, and I think quite correctly,
14 the inmate is getting a pretty good deal. In
15 other words, these items are being purchased for
16 far less than they would be on the outside;
17 correct?
18 SENATOR COOK: Correct.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Then I was
20 wondering why wouldn't we make the similar
21 adjustment in the sales tax to, in a sense,
22 equalize the system? In other words, there must
23 have been a reason that we're charging less
3059
1 because there is a certain amount of control
2 since we're acting within the institution. So
3 if we want the sales tax to demonstrate to
4 inmates that they have to be part of society,
5 then this is a good way for them to understand
6 they shouldn't just buy things off the shelves
7 without paying any tax. They should pay some
8 form of tax as any other consumer would, thus
9 influencing whether or not they want to buy or
10 at least letting them know that other taxpayers'
11 dollars are even supporting their custodial care
12 while they are in the penitentiary. So, then,
13 wouldn't it follow that we would have a sales
14 tax that would be adjusted to the items that are
15 received? Otherwise, we would be charging a
16 greater amount of tax for a lesser amount in the
17 item.
18 SENATOR COOK: Senator, that's an
19 interesting point. Frankly, I'm not sure how
20 you would adjust to that because you do charge
21 sales tax based on the selling price of the
22 item. But it does address an earlier point
23 which I thought you were making, which was the
3060
1 fact that in some cases where families might be
2 able because of their economic circumstances to
3 make certain purchases on the outside that they
4 would then bring into the prison and create a
5 sort of a black market situation.
6 The fact is that the sales tax on
7 the outside would be higher than the sales tax
8 on the inside, so that, not by intent but
9 actually by operation, this bill would
10 discourage that type of black market operation,
11 because even with the sales tax the items would
12 still be less expensive inside the prison than
13 they would be outside.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Gold, why do you rise?
17 SENATOR GOLD: With Senator
18 Paterson's permission, could I just ask the
19 gentleman question one question?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Paterson, do you yield to Senator Gold?
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator
23 Gold, you know, I was really just getting to the
3061
1 apex of my examination, and it's very
2 difficult -- I don't want to lose my place-- but
3 because of our long friendship and my admiration
4 for you as a Senator and also as a thinking
5 person, I yield the floor at this time.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Senator yields.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you.
9 As a thinking person, you
10 probably made the wrong decision.
11 Senator Cook, if we are trying to
12 give them a real life experience, is there a
13 provision in the bill which says that they can
14 avoid the tax by paying cash?
15 SENATOR COOK: Senator, if they
16 pay cash, they pay the sales tax.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Well, then -
18 Senator, what I'm getting at, shouldn't it be a
19 real life experience as if they were buying on
20 42nd Street in New York or dealing with a
21 merchant in some of our small communities?
22 SENATOR COOK: Do you mean if
23 they were able to walk out onto the street in
3062
1 front of the prison and buy the material,
2 instead of buying it in the prison, they could
3 avoid paying the sales tax? Is that what you're
4 getting at?
5 SENATOR GOLD: You're talking
6 about making this a real life experience, so I
7 was just wondering if they could avoid the tax
8 by paying cash -
9 SENATOR COOK: Your point is well
10 taken, Senator.
11 SENATOR GOLD: -- which is the
12 practice of most of the small merchants who say
13 they don't charge sales tax, they only collect
14 it; and, actually, it's an increase in their
15 income. I didn't know if there was a
16 correlation.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Abate, why do you rise?
19 SENATOR ABATE: I'm confused.
20 SENATOR COOK: Congratulations.
21 SENATOR ABATE: Although I think
22 Senator Paterson did his best to clarify the
23 issue, with all due respect, there are a couple
3063
1 issues, I think, left, not clarified, that I
2 would like to pursue.
3 My first issue, Senator, if the
4 Senator would yield.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Cook, do you yield?
7 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
8 SENATOR ABATE: I see before me
9 that there's another piece of legislation, which
10 is introduced by Senator Nozzolio, and it's
11 2818. What's the difference between your
12 legislation and his legislation; and why do you
13 support yours over his?
14 SENATOR COOK: Senator, you know,
15 I have to make a confession to you. I know word
16 for word every one of the 10,000 bills that is
17 introduced in this chamber except that one, and
18 I'm really not familiar with Senator Nozzolio's
19 bill.
20 SENATOR ABATE: You are probably
21 better than the rest of us. We usually don't
22 know the language of the bills that we sponsor.
23 SENATOR COOK: Beg pardon.
3064
1 SENATOR ABATE: But let me read
2 the language proposed, and maybe you can tell me
3 what the difference is and why you support yours
4 over Senator Nozzolio's. He has a section that
5 reads, "Any institution authorized by the
6 commissioner to establish a commissary or a
7 canteen shall assess the appropriate sales and
8 use taxes on the items sold."
9 So it would leave to the
10 discretion of each jail in a county or to the
11 statewide prison system the ability to determine
12 what the sales tax or use tax should be. Now,
13 why is that a worse solution compared to your
14 legislation?
15 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I have
16 been rescued by a staff member who has brought
17 to me a memorandum from the Tax Department that,
18 with all due respect to my colleague, indicates
19 that my bill amends the correct section of law
20 and his does not.
21 SENATOR ABATE: I see. But it's
22 my understanding, and please correct me,
23 Senator, that both bills are going to be passed
3065
1 by the Senate today. Wouldn't that be an
2 inconsistent -- although we have never taken any
3 inconsistent actions in the past. Wouldn't that
4 be an inconsistent action by this Legislature?
5 SENATOR COOK: As I indicated
6 before, I know exactly what's going to happen
7 with 9,999 bills, but, unfortunately, Senator
8 Nozzolio's bill, I'm not aware what's going to
9 occur with that, so I really can't answer your
10 question.
11 SENATOR ABATE: I guess many of
12 us are in a dilemma because we're not sure
13 whether we're going to be voting on this bill
14 today and we have to choose between one and the
15 other and we're just not sure which bill to
16 support.
17 SENATOR COOK: Life is full of
18 tough choices, Senator.
19 SENATOR ABATE: Right. If the
20 Senator would yield to another question?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Cook, do you continue to yield?
23 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
3066
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 yields.
3 SENATOR ABATE: There seems to be
4 a point made by Senator Nozzolio's bill that
5 your legislation does not address. If the goal
6 of the legislation is to create revenue,
7 additional revenue for counties -- because my
8 understanding is the county would be the
9 recipient of this revenue. It wouldn't go back
10 into the state coffers; am I correct?
11 SENATOR COOK: Under my bill,
12 Senator, the proportion that is due to the state
13 goes to the state and -- you know, render unto
14 Caesar that which is Caesar's.
15 SENATOR ABATE: I see. So the
16 portion that is state taxes go back to the
17 state, the local taxes go back to localities.
18 SENATOR COOK: Exactly.
19 SENATOR ABATE: But, clearly, the
20 intent of the legislation is to produce
21 additional revenue for the state and the
22 localities.
23 SENATOR COOK: Senator, in
3067
1 reality, that's not the point. The point is
2 that we have for one class of citizens in the
3 state a subsidized system in which they can make
4 purchases of certain materials and do not pay
5 sales tax which is paid by everybody else in the
6 state, and this bill is simply a statement of
7 equity, that, in fact, you should not reward
8 someone who is incarcerated by forgiving them
9 the sales tax that they would have to be paying
10 if they hadn't been put in prison.
11 SENATOR ABATE: Senator, that's
12 very interesting. So the intent is not to
13 produce additional revenue. It's to teach the
14 inmates another very good lesson.
15 SENATOR COOK: It's to establish
16 equity among all the people in the state. I
17 think it is really kind of ironic at this moment
18 -- if we can go back to that earlier
19 situation -- that if the family made the
20 purchase on the outside and brought it in to the
21 prisoner, they would have to pay sales tax, but
22 if the prisoner buys it in the prison
23 commissary, he doesn't pay sales tax.
3068
1 SENATOR ABATE: But, Senator,
2 wouldn't you say that the equity that we're
3 trying to put in the correction system is
4 another way of showing the inmates this is how
5 society should operate? This is one way of
6 paying back their debt to society?
7 SENATOR COOK: That's a fair
8 statement, Senator.
9 SENATOR ABATE: And then,
10 secondarily, is the opportunity to produce
11 additional revenue.
12 SENATOR COOK: Sure.
13 SENATOR ABATE: You would put the
14 teaching the lesson first and teaching -
15 collecting revenue as a corollary, a secondary
16 goal of the legislation.
17 SENATOR COOK: Only if you
18 amended the first statement to say that it is a
19 matter of statement of establishing equity, as
20 well, because I think there is a signal out
21 there, that when my children went into the
22 college book store they paid sales tax on items
23 that they purchased, but if they had gone into
3069
1 the prison commissary they wouldn't have paid
2 sales tax. I think that's a wrong statement for
3 society to make.
4 SENATOR ABATE: I'm glad you said
5 that, because if you saw the revenue production
6 was the primary goal of the legislation, you'd
7 probably support Senator Nozzolio's legislation.
8 SENATOR COOK: I probably do
9 anyway, Senator.
10 SENATOR ABATE: So you are
11 willing to lay this aside.
12 SENATOR COOK: No. I say I
13 probably would support Senator Nozzolio's
14 legislation, if you're telling me that it's a
15 matter of trying to enhance the fiscal situation
16 of the state.
17 SENATOR ABATE: Right.
18 SENATOR COOK: I think that's
19 something which today as we meet here we're all
20 very conscious of; and, certainly, if Senator
21 Nozzolio has a means by which we can improve the
22 State's fiscal outlook, I have enough trust in
23 his judgment and knowledge and ability that I
3070
1 would be very supportive of his efforts to do
2 that, yes.
3 SENATOR ABATE: I haven't reached
4 the point that his bill is better than yours,
5 but I guess I raise the question if the price of
6 these goods -- and what's sold are shampoos and
7 soaps, potato chips, cake. If you look at most
8 inmates, they gain a lot of weight because of
9 the amount of carbohydrates they eat, and they
10 love going to the commissary to get -
11 particularly the women, to get these kinds of
12 things that they can't get as the shampoos, and
13 then the extras like the potato chips.
14 There are two things that could
15 happen. We might produce a skinnier inmate, a
16 leaner inmate, because the cost of the goods
17 might get so high that they can't buy the potato
18 chips.
19 SENATOR COOK: That would be a
20 problem, too, because where they have bars and
21 if they get so skinny they can get between them,
22 we might actually have an escape problem.
23 SENATOR ABATE: That's a very
3071
1 good point. So they either don't buy it because
2 they can't afford it or -- would that contribute
3 to unrest if the inmates are used to buying the
4 cakes and potato chips? The sales tax is added
5 on and they no longer can afford to buy the
6 goods in quantity so the state and localities
7 don't get this revenue. The inmates are angry.
8 They then have to buy the potato chips from the
9 inmate that actually has enough revenue and
10 stores up these potato chips. They stash the
11 potato chips around the jails and prisons.
12 Aren't you concerned that this bill might create
13 undue unrest in the jails and prisons?
14 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I have
15 that same problem with my kids. You know, you
16 give them a dollar, and they go and find out
17 there was eight cents sales tax, and they
18 couldn't buy what they wanted, and they would
19 come home, and we had all kinds of problems with
20 them because of that.
21 SENATOR ABATE: Would the Senator
22 yield to another question?
23 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
3072
1 SENATOR ABATE: I was so pleased,
2 Senator, that you talked about inmates learning
3 a lesson because people go to jail and prison
4 not just for punishment but, hopefully, when
5 they get out of prison they become more
6 productive citizens. They learn how to read and
7 write. They learn to take responsibility for
8 their acts, to be accountable for what they have
9 done and become better citizens. Do you think
10 this is one plan in a long plan of what we
11 should be doing in the state as far as making
12 prisoners more accountable for their crimes, so
13 when they leave they have become better
14 citizens?
15 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I'm not
16 sure whether it makes them more accountable. It
17 does help them know that they have to add 8
18 percent to whatever the posted cost of an item
19 is; and, certainly, if they learn to calculate
20 that 8 percent of 59 cents is 4.8 cents,
21 roughly, it helps train them to do a little bit
22 of arithmetic, and sometimes they even get the
23 right answer.
3073
1 SENATOR ABATE: And I agree with
2 you. Don't you think there's another way that
3 we can drive home this lesson, if we teach
4 inmates how to read and write so they can begin
5 to calculate, and maybe we need to restore some
6 education programs?
7 SENATOR COOK: Well, Senator, if
8 we pass this bill and we have that extra million
9 dollars, perhaps we'll be able to do some of
10 those things.
11 SENATOR ABATE: So you would
12 agree that this might be a first step in a plan
13 of holding inmates accountable and making sure
14 they have the skills, so when they leave they
15 don't revictimize again? Hopefully, this is the
16 first step of a plan.
17 SENATOR COOK: I find that a very
18 interesting nexus that you have created,
19 Senator.
20 SENATOR ABATE: I believe Senator
21 Paterson -- I'm going to yield to Senator
22 Paterson. I believe he has some additional
23 questions?
3074
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Abate. Senator Abate. The chair has usually
3 taken upon the responsibility of the chair to
4 recognize the next speaker, and there already
5 has been a member of our body, a distinguished
6 colleague on your side of the aisle, who has
7 indicated to the chair that she would like to
8 speak on the bill.
9 So while I recognize your
10 congeniality with Senator Paterson and your wish
11 to try to appease his request, the chair would
12 take it upon itself to recognize Senator
13 Montgomery now that you have finished your -
14 SENATOR ABATE: Oh, I think
15 that's fine. I would love to hear from Senator
16 Montgomery.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank
18 you.
19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you,
20 Mr. President, and my colleagues. I would just
21 like to ask if the sponsor would continue to
22 yield to a question?
23 SENATOR COOK: Sure.
3075
1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator
2 Cook, I note in recent weeks there have been
3 several articles in local papers where a local
4 mayor is applauding the possibility of there
5 being a new jail in his town and, in fact,
6 offering land and saying that this is a most
7 welcome occurrence and that it is an economic
8 boon to his area.
9 And I'm just wondering if you
10 have any calculation of what a prison brings to
11 a locality in terms of resources, including the
12 jobs and construction?
13 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I don't
14 have a calculation of that, and, obviously, the
15 easiest calculation would be the payroll of the
16 institution, which is really about the only
17 direct benefit that the community receives
18 because most of the purchases, of course, come
19 through some central agency. In fact, in the
20 prison system, a good bit of what they use is
21 actually produced within the prison system.
22 There is an effort to try to do that. But there
23 is of course a payroll.
3076
1 One of the ironies is that the
2 economic benefit doesn't necessarily accrue
3 directly to the locality in which the prison is
4 located; and if the mayor sees this as a real
5 boon to him, I suggest he might look at some of
6 the communities where prisons already exist. It
7 certainly does have an effect on the larger
8 area, but often the municipality, the smallest
9 municipality in which the prison is located,
10 because it has to provide fire coverage, because
11 it does have a certain amount of traffic and in
12 some cases they consider they may need
13 additional police coverage and in some cases
14 emergency medical coverage, that the actual host
15 municipality incurs a fairly considerable cost.
16 The municipalities which surround
17 it which don't contribute to that cost -- and
18 maybe that should be one of the things we should
19 be dealing with here -- do benefit very
20 considerably because they do have the incomes,
21 of course, of the folks who work at the prison.
22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Do we have a
23 figure for the average number of people employed
3077
1 in a local prison with 1,000 to 1200 inmates?
2 SENATOR COOK: No, we don't,
3 Senator, but I'm assuming it probably would be
4 very close to the same number of employees. It
5 is quite labor intensive.
6 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So we can
7 assume based on a 24-hour staffing of any
8 facility -
9 SENATOR COOK: Twenty-four hour
10 staffing, corrections officers, all the support
11 staff, the kitchen folks, everybody who is
12 involved in maintaining a prison facility, and
13 that's why the cost of incarceration is so high
14 is because it's very labor intensive.
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Absolutely.
16 Senator, now, about the construction cost of a
17 local facility. It is my understanding that we
18 spend somewhere around $180,000, $185,000 per
19 prison cell to construct. What does that mean
20 in terms of the revenue that is generated to
21 local contractors who build prisons, given a
22 1500-bed facility?
23 SENATOR COOK: Again, Senator,
3078
1 the contractors who are building prisons are a
2 relatively small number and, in most cases, are
3 probably not located -- their place of business
4 is probably not located in the municipality in
5 which the prison is located.
6 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Do they use
7 local contractors and workers on the projects
8 generally?
9 SENATOR COOK: Probably not
10 because they use union labor, which generally is
11 regionally based, and the contractors may come
12 from -- in my area, for example, they may be
13 building a facility in Ellenville. The
14 contractor may be located in Yonkers. The union
15 headquarters may be in Newburgh, none of which
16 is even in the same county where the facility is
17 being constructed. So that actual revenue that
18 would accrue as a result of that activity very
19 often does not go to the very municipality that
20 is incurring these costs we've been talking
21 about.
22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So they are
23 not inclined to use local people to work when
3079
1 they are doing these major construction
2 projects?
3 SENATOR COOK: Well, there is a
4 regional benefit, Senator, and I'm not denying
5 that. I'm simply saying that the host
6 municipality somehow doesn't derive the benefit
7 that one might assume from having a prison there
8 even though there is a regional benefit.
9 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right.
10 So, Senator, I just wanted to clarify, if you
11 will, the issue of revenue and who is looking
12 for some revenue to come back to them and how
13 it's going to come. So, clearly, when we talk
14 about the benefit to the locality, we're
15 certainly not talking about the taxes that you
16 are going to collect in the commissary because
17 that doesn't begin to satisfy anywhere near the
18 kind of revenue that is generated by the fact
19 that that prison is located in an area where
20 there are at least a thousand or so jobs that
21 come with it that are created for eternity -- in
22 our life.
23 SENATOR COOK: Senator, I think I
3080
1 indicated in an earlier discussion, revenue is
2 really not the issue here. It is in the case of
3 -- as in my other bill, which is a dollar per
4 inmate. A thousand dollars which goes to a fire
5 district is a pittance, but it is at least a
6 recognition that there is a cost being incurred
7 by the local taxpayers that somehow you mitigate
8 by the revenue you derive.
9 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you,
10 Senator Cook.
11 Mr. President, on the bill.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Montgomery on the bill.
14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I understand
15 Senator Cook's stated purpose in the
16 legislation. I would, however, question his
17 stated purpose, given the fact that -- I believe
18 it was Senator Cook who also introduced
19 legislation which would deny access to inmates
20 of higher education or being eligible for TAP
21 for reimbursement. So while Senator Cook says
22 that he wants to teach them a lesson, I think
23 Senator Cook wants to punish them it sounds to
3081
1 me like, because teaching a lesson, as pointed
2 out by Senator Abate, means you want to educate
3 people; and if you want to educate people, I
4 think you think in longer terms. Education
5 means learning, and this is clearly not
6 necessarily learning something. It is just a
7 punishment and a further punishment for inmates,
8 and so that's my honest assessment.
9 And as it relates to revenue and
10 wanting to make sure that they give back to the
11 locality, inmates in this state give back to the
12 localities and they give back tremendously in
13 terms of the resources that they generate, and
14 they give back to the extent that people in the
15 localities have said over and over, over the
16 years, that if there is going to be a prison
17 built in the state, I want it in my district.
18 And every Republican Senator, I believe, in this
19 house has at least one and in the case
20 particularly -- specifically, I don't -- yes,
21 Senator Marchi has one, too. That maybe in the
22 case of Senator Cook, he has a number of prisons
23 in his district.
3082
1 And people in his district, the
2 localities, want those prisons not because they
3 like prisoners but because these are economic
4 generators Upstate New York, and we all know and
5 understand that, those on this side and those on
6 that side. So it is not to be denied. What
7 happens to the prisoners inside those prisons,
8 obviously people have very different
9 perspectives. So I say to Senator Cook and all
10 the people who have prisons as well as those who
11 don't have prisons but have constituents who are
12 in those prisons, we owe it to ourselves to know
13 and to be concerned about what's happening to
14 the prisoners while they are in because they are
15 coming out, for the most part.
16 We only just recently passed the
17 life without parole bill. So if we're going to
18 have prisoners coming back, they are coming back
19 to someone's community, and my community is one
20 of those communities, and I want them to come
21 back with being, hopefully, more positive, more
22 educated, more humane individuals and not having
23 been brutalized to the point where they can't
3083
1 live in society any more unless they are in
2 prison, because we can't afford to continue to
3 escalate our prison system to the point where we
4 are going to have two-thirds or half of the men
5 and women in certain areas in prison. How are
6 we going to support that? And then they come
7 out and have to go back in and et cetera.
8 So, Senator Cook, I think this is
9 a very bad -- it's a bad bill because, one, it
10 doesn't do anything in terms of revenue. It has
11 nothing to do with revenue. You admitted that
12 yourself. Two, you say you are teaching a
13 lesson, but you really don't want prisoners to
14 have any learning experiences. You want them to
15 be further penalized, brutalized, and I just
16 think that this bill says absolutely what we
17 should not be saying if we care about what
18 happens to prisoners not only while they are in
19 prison but when they come out.
20 So I will be voting no on this
21 legislation, and I hope my colleagues will join
22 me in the interest of people in this state who
23 will have to live with prisoners when they come
3084
1 out of prison.
2 Thank you, Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect 30 days after it shall
7 have become a law.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 Announce the results when
12 tabulated.
13 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
14 the negative on Calendar 170 are Senators
15 Connor, Leichter, Montgomery, Paterson. Ayes
16 55. Nays 4.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
18 is passed.
19 Senator Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
21 Would you place a sponsor star on Calendar
22 Number 255, Senate 2337D.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the
3085
1 request of the sponsor, Calendar Number 255 will
2 be starred.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Would you
4 recognize Senator Mendez, please.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Mendez, why do you rise?
7 SENATOR MENDEZ: I voted no on
8 170.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
10 objection, the request by Senator Mendez to be
11 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 170
12 is granted. Senator Mendez will be recorded in
13 the negative.
14 Senator Seabrook. Senator
15 Seabrook. Is it your request to be recorded in
16 the negative on Calendar Number 170?
17 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes, Mr.
18 President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
20 objection, Senator Seabrook will be recorded in
21 the negative on Calendar Number 170.
22 Senator Skelos, may we return to
23 motions and resolutions? We have one piece of
3086
1 housekeeping we would like to take up.
2 Senator Marcellino.
3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, let's
4 return to motions and resolution. He told me to
5 say that.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Maziarz. We've returned to motions and
8 resolutions.
9 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President.
10 On behalf of Senator Volker, on page number 12,
11 I offer the following amendments to Calendar
12 Number 232, Senate Print Number 2957B, and ask
13 that said bill retain its place on Third Reading
14 Calendar.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Calendar
16 Number 323, the amendments will be received and
17 adopted. The bill will retain its place on the
18 Third Reading Calendar.
19 Senator Marcellino.
20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
21 President. Can we take up at this time Calendar
22 Number 461, Senate Print Number 5965B.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
3087
1 will read Calendar Number 461.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 461, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 5965B, an
4 act to amend the Correction Law, in relation to
5 the custody and supervision of persons in
6 correctional facilities.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Paterson, were you asking for an explanation?
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr.
10 President.
11 SENATOR GOLD: We are asking for
12 a very, very slow but accurate explanation from
13 the distinguished gentleman from Cornell.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Nozzolio, an explanation of Calendar Number 461
16 has been asked for.
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 Mr. President. My colleagues.
20 The measure before us amends the Correction Law
21 relating to the custody and supervision of
22 persons who are committed into the custody of
23 either a sheriff or Commissioner of Corrections
3088
1 or sentenced to state or local correctional
2 facilities. The measure is designed to
3 specifically preserve the responsibility, the
4 duty of maintaining the custody and supervision
5 of those persons committed to insure that that
6 responsibility is going to be continued by those
7 people most directly responsible to the people,
8 the local and state correction officers, as
9 opposed to private security forces.
10 The bill says that security
11 functions should be left up to those who are
12 responsible to the people and not linked to a
13 private sector profit motive. The legislation
14 can be termed stopping the wholesale
15 privatization of the correctional component of
16 our state prison facilities.
17 I may go further, Mr. President,
18 that a disturbing trend is developing across the
19 nation which I believe and those who have joined
20 as cosponsors of this legislation believe could
21 very well endanger the safety of our citizens
22 and place those citizens in jeopardy. In an
23 effort to cut costs, we see a misguided approach
3089
1 that turns to the privatization of the security
2 function of our jails and prisons.
3 Security is a fundamental
4 responsibility of government. Putting that
5 responsibility in the hands of questionably
6 trained and perhaps unqualified guards and
7 companies who employ them, which don't measure
8 up to the intense qualification, training,
9 commitment that we see in our correctional
10 facilities is something that I -
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
12 me, Senator Nozzolio. Could you suffer an
13 interruption.
14 Senator Marcellino, why do you
15 rise?
16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I seek the
17 apology of Senator Nozzolio for the
18 interruption, and this chamber, but we need to
19 call an immediate meeting of the Education
20 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
22 will be an immediate meeting of the Education
23 Committee in Room 332, the Majority Conference
3090
1 Room.
2 There will be an immediate
3 meeting of the Education Committee in the
4 Majority Conference Room, Room 332.
5 Thank you for allowing the
6 interruption, Senator Nozzolio. Please proceed.
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
8 President.
9 Mr. President, as I was saying,
10 it is my strong belief that public protection is
11 a fundamental responsibility of government; that
12 putting the responsibility into hands that do
13 not have the accountability to our people is
14 something that is extremely, extremely
15 problematic and could be dangerous.
16 What our measure does is preserve
17 the correctional component as a nontransferable
18 responsibility to government. The duty to
19 maintain custody and supervision of persons
20 committed or sentenced to the state or local
21 jails is a responsibility that will prohibited
22 to be transferred to placement with private
23 security guards.
3091
1 That there is no question that
2 privatization is a good idea in some areas of
3 government. The profit motive could be a best
4 incentive to achieve a goal in an efficient way
5 possibly under certain circumstances, but
6 protecting the public is not one of those
7 circumstances, and I don't believe any of us
8 here -- any of us, on either side of the aisle,
9 would want to put their families' lives in the
10 hands of companies whose first and foremost
11 objective is to turn a profit. I believe that
12 is something who we -- we very much wish to
13 avoid and this measure would insure that that
14 will not happen in this state.
15 Also, we should take this moment
16 to reflect that those men and women who work in
17 our correctional facilities throughout New York
18 State are highly trained, thoroughly screened
19 and have the safety of the public as their top
20 priority. We should pause and give those men
21 and women, those very brave men and women, our
22 thanks and admiration for what they do day-in
23 and day-out under the most stressful conditions
3092
1 in the best of times.
2 This is something we should
3 certainly thank them for, and I know members of
4 both sides of the aisle in this chamber do just
5 that, respect and admire the work of our
6 correctional officers, our nurses, our other
7 personnel in correctional facilities.
8 Thank you, Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Gold.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you. Would
12 the distinguished gentleman yield to a question
13 or two?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Nozzolio, do you yield?
16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I would be
17 honored to yield to Senator Gold.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 yields.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Nozzolio,
21 is there any experience that we're drawing on
22 where there have been other states or prison
23 systems where they involve themselves with
3093
1 privatization such as you want to ban?
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Senator.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Can you tell us a
4 little bit about where it was and what their
5 experiences were?
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Just last
7 year, Senator Gold, the Immigration and
8 Naturalization Service was forced to cancel its
9 contract with a private company after a riot in
10 its New Jersey facility.
11 A government investigation found
12 that the company had achieved a cost savings by
13 hiring guards at $8 an hour who had not been
14 trained in handling emergencies. As part of the
15 efforts to achieve profits, the facility I
16 mention was understaffed, and its detainees were
17 denied even the most basic of services. In
18 addition, I believe there are other examples
19 that we would like to give that -- I know that
20 there are other stories, but that's the one that
21 comes most immediately to mind.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator
23 yield?
3094
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 continues to yield.
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
4 President. I will be honored to yield to
5 Senator Gold.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Senator Nozzolio,
7 is that the only situation in America where we
8 have had privatization or have there been
9 others?
10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I
11 believe there are a number of others. I don't
12 have as much date, time, location, performing.
13 I didn't know I would be debating this bill, but
14 there are others that I have been told exist in
15 the Southwestern part of the United States. I'm
16 not sure exactly what state, but I heard that
17 there were similar type occurrences in the
18 Southwest.
19 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, are there
20 any experiences as far as we know where any of
21 the larger metropolitan areas in America, such
22 as Chicago or Pittsburgh or Los Angeles, et
23 cetera, have tried privatization, as far as you
3095
1 know?
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Not to my
3 knowledge, Senator.
4 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, let me
5 ask you a different question. You made the
6 comment that privatization might have its
7 place. You know, there might be places where
8 it's appropriate. Can you give me an idea the
9 kind of a situation where you think
10 privatization would be appropriate?
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr.
12 President. I'm not sure I understood all of
13 Senator Gold's question.
14 SENATOR GOLD: That's fair.
15 Sometimes I ask questions that aren't
16 understandable. Let me redo it a little bit.
17 All right?
18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you,
19 Senator.
20 SENATOR GOLD: For example, you
21 indicated that you are against privatization in
22 the area of your bill -- which I may agree with
23 you -- but you said you are against it because
3096
1 there are issues of people's safety, there are
2 questions of people being properly trained to do
3 that. Do you think that that kind of an
4 argument would apply to the issue of
5 privatization of, for example, some hospitals?
6 That I understand in one part of the state there
7 is a thought of selling off the public
8 hospitals.
9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator -- Mr.
10 President. In response to the Senator's
11 question which I think is an important question,
12 but one that I am not qualified to answer.
13 SENATOR GOLD: That's fair.
14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Because the
15 foursquare review that we're providing here is
16 dealing just with correctional facilities, and I
17 really don't believe the hospital question is
18 certainly within this purview, and I'm not
19 attempting to privatize anything beyond -- or
20 prevent privatization of anything beyond the
21 security function at our jails, and hospitals
22 are totally another story, and I just would
23 refrain from exercising the debate in those
3097
1 areas.
2 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President. I
3 know that Senator Abate and others have some
4 questions, but if I could just make a comment on
5 the bill.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Gold on the bill.
8 SENATOR GOLD: I think that the
9 concerns that have been raised by Senator
10 Nozzolio and the concerns that have been raised
11 by Senator Abate, who has extraordinary
12 experience in this field, are really very
13 genuine. I believe that saving taxpayer money
14 is a legitimate concern of everybody in this
15 chamber and in this body, but I do think there
16 are some situations where the expression "penny
17 wise and pound foolish" really comes into play,
18 and the concept of taking these institutions,
19 which are difficult enough to manage, and
20 looking to save money in a dangerous way, I
21 think is very ill-advised and, therefore, I
22 would tend to be supportive of this
23 legislation.
3098
1 There was a study, and the study
2 goes back a long time, it's not a recent study,
3 but -- it was an experiment, perhaps, more than
4 a study. But some students at Harvard had an
5 exercise where a number of the students were
6 given the role of being incarcerated for a short
7 period of time, and some other students were
8 begin the role of being the guards, and then
9 they after a period of time redid the experience
10 with it being reversed; and the study indicated
11 that those people who were the guards were
12 acting out and being as difficult as those
13 people who were at the time in the prisons, and
14 the feelings I had from that is that that is
15 perhaps the way untrained human beings would
16 react in a situation.
17 And if I had my druthers as to
18 picking other kinds of employment for myself, I
19 think being a prison guard is very far from the
20 top of that list. It is a very difficult job.
21 It's a job where there are perhaps natural human
22 emotions that have to be restrained. I respect
23 very much, for example, the police department
3099
1 and police officers, but each day as people get
2 out in the streets more and more with their
3 camcorders, we see evidence of how human beings
4 act in a way that's human but yet nothing to be
5 proud of.
6 So, again, yesterday, I think
7 there were films from California where there was
8 a highway chase and the chase ended with the
9 pulling over of a truck, the apprehension of the
10 truck driver who was driving illegal aliens and
11 his being beaten by police officers without
12 there being any resistance. Certainly there is
13 no justification for dealing in illegal aliens.
14 The individuals who do that are certainly people
15 that I do not respect, but it is not the
16 greatest sign of what our society is that police
17 officers when they think they are not being
18 observed would engage in that kind of conduct.
19 Therefore, I think that being a
20 prison guard is very, very difficult, and
21 there's some human reaction to want to act out
22 and want to do things which hopefully we train
23 people not to do, and we like to think that
3100
1 under the system we have now we get a good
2 quality individual who is a prison guard and
3 does that difficult job.
4 I'm very nervous about
5 privatization as it comes to a lot of areas.
6 There has been talk of privatizing some
7 hospitals in the City of New York. That has
8 raised some serious questions with many of us,
9 and there has been the question of privatizing
10 within the prison system, and I think that
11 certainly, while you can have a debate on
12 hospitals where there are in fact private
13 hospitals that are operated even today and we
14 have public hospitals, I think there is a great
15 intellectual burden upon anyone who suggests
16 that we privatize prisons.
17 The example given by Senator
18 Nozzolio certainly is a deterrent towards doing
19 that. But as Senator Nozzolio says, there are
20 other examples and he didn't have that
21 background with him, except I do not believe
22 that anybody has tried this in the kind of
23 situations we have in New York State, and that
3101
1 would be relevant. If somebody did something in
2 the Southwest in the middle of the desert, I
3 don't know whether that translates to a
4 successful operation in the City of New York,
5 who are dealing with some of the kinds of people
6 we have to deal with in the prison system in New
7 York.
8 So it would take an awful lot of
9 data, evidence, precedent to convince me that
10 this was a good idea in the jail system, and I
11 intend to support the Abate-Nozzolio bill -- I
12 mean the Nozzolio-Abate bill, and I'm glad we
13 have a chance discuss it.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Maziarz, why do you rise? Senator Maziarz, why
16 do you rise?
17 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President.
18 On the bill.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Maziarz, I do have a list going up here, and
21 Senator Abate was next.
22 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Oh, I'm sorry.
23 I apologize.
3102
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I
2 appreciate that.
3 Chair recognizes Senator Abate.
4 SENATOR ABATE: Before Senator
5 Nozzolio leaves the chamber -- Senator Nozzolio
6 leaves the chamber.
7 On the bill, before the Senator
8 leaves, I wanted to be able to compliment him
9 for sponsoring the legislation, and I am very
10 pleased to be able to be a cosponsor of this
11 legislation.
12 When we talk about privatization
13 in the jails and prisons, this bill only
14 addresses one piece of privatization. It says
15 that the security function of the correction
16 officers should not be privatized and that
17 security function are the officers, the
18 captains, the assistant deputy wardens, the
19 wardens, whatever you call them in the state
20 system, the superintendents, should not be
21 contracted out for hire to a low bidder to a
22 private firm, but it does not say that
23 privatization can not take place for non
3103
1 security functions.
2 It doesn't say that food services
3 can't be contracted out or laundry services or
4 transportation or drug treatment or other kinds
5 of civilian functions. What this legislation
6 deals with -- and it's a very important piece of
7 legislation -- deals with those things that are
8 carried out now by peace officers. Let me
9 stress: Peace officers.
10 And I believe, as well as Senator
11 Nozzolio and other cosponsors of this
12 legislation, there are certain core functions of
13 government, whether that be a correction officer
14 or whether that be a police officer, because
15 they are both law enforcement officers, should
16 not be contracted out for hire, should not be
17 contracted out for the lowest bidder, nor should
18 we then jeopardize our public safety. We would
19 never think twice about whether we should
20 contract out for police services. Would we go
21 back into our communities and say we don't want
22 a police force accountable to the mayor, to the
23 county executive, to the locality, and we're
3104
1 going to let a private firm police our
2 communities? We would never think about doing
3 that.
4 Well, the jails and prisons are
5 like local precincts. The problem is many of us
6 have never had an opportunity to walk a jail and
7 walk a prison and understand how difficult a job
8 of a correction officer is. Let me give you a
9 sense of how difficult that job is and why that
10 person has to be highly trained, needs to be a
11 peace officer, needs to be held accountable and
12 needs to be the most professional person we can
13 get.
14 That officer is in that prison
15 and jail every day without a weapon. They don't
16 carry guns. They are there and some people say
17 running the toughest precincts in New York
18 State. You have convicted felons there. People
19 who have been recidivists. Some are lifers.
20 And they need to control that
21 jail or prison not with weapons which they don't
22 possess but with their ability to mediate, with
23 their ability to think quickly when there is a
3105
1 crisis, with their ability to negotiate -- all
2 the skills that are acquired by highly trained
3 law enforcement officers.
4 This is not a job that can be
5 done by a security guard that's paid $8 an hour
6 that is a temporary job. When they lose their
7 job because they misbehave or do not follow the
8 rules through misconduct or malfeasance or mis
9 feasance, to them, it's a loss of a job. To a
10 correction officer, it's a loss of a career.
11 There are many families that dedicate their
12 lives to correction as a career. Generations of
13 families have gone in and out of the prison and
14 jail system. We do not want to lose that career
15 path.
16 If we privatize the career
17 function that's what we will get. If we want
18 low-paid, unskilled, untrained workers, we'll
19 contract out. If we want to preserve the
20 integrity and the security and the stability of
21 our prison and jail systems, we must recognize
22 the job of a correction officer is a core
23 function that must be done by peace officers and
3106
1 cannot be privatized.
2 As Senator Nozzolio said, there
3 is a recent example and that was Esmore. It's a
4 private firm that was contracted with by the
5 federal INS immigration services to oversee the
6 federal detention center. It was a disaster.
7 Within a year, the contract was ended. They
8 thought they could do it cheaper. Sure, they
9 did it cheaper but at a higher cost. More
10 contraband was coming into the system. There
11 was increased violence. There was excessive use
12 of force; and when you have increased violence,
13 excessive use of force and more contraband, that
14 costs a lot more dollars in terms of operating
15 that system.
16 So what they did was: We will
17 pay these security people less dollars, $8 an
18 hour. We won't pay them overtime. They didn't
19 pay overtime. And, they said, we won't train
20 them.
21 It created a disaster. It
22 created enormous dangers in that system. And
23 what they learned, because they contracted out,
3107
1 they also lost accountability. They lost the
2 ability to provide adequate oversight. There
3 was little or no communication, nor would you
4 want to lose that communication if you ran a
5 precinct in your community. You shouldn't lose
6 that communication when you are running a jail
7 and prison system.
8 This is an important issue,
9 because as we're looking for scarce dollars,
10 people will be looking to see more and more how
11 we can provide services more cheaply. But I'm
12 suggesting that if we privatize this function we
13 get what we pay for. We will get an unskilled,
14 not career path, not a professional peace
15 officer, which is what we have now. That is a
16 very dangerous course. We should not even
17 consider pursuing this now or in the future.
18 This is, I believe, an issue that
19 is supported by most correction professionals
20 when they can speak off the record. They know
21 there is a lot of other ways to save dollars in
22 the system. When I ran Correction, I was given
23 the task of saving $100 million in a given
3108
1 year. There's ways of cutting costs but not
2 cutting security or safety and, yes, it's the
3 responsibility of prisons and jails to look at
4 how they can deliver services more economically,
5 do what everyone else is doing in the system,
6 but not jeopardizing the system itself.
7 So I urge all of you. This is a
8 bipartisan effort. There are people on both
9 sides of the aisle supporting this legislation.
10 It makes sense in terms of dollars. It makes
11 sense in terms of preserving the integrity of
12 the system, and I urge all my colleagues to
13 support this bill.
14 And just remember. If you are
15 not sure about this bill, ask yourself, would
16 you ever contemplate privatizing the police
17 force in your community? I know all of you
18 would say with a resounding no, "Of course
19 not." If you say of course not to police, you
20 must say of course not to correction officers.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Maziarz.
23 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr.
3109
1 President. On the bill.
2 I want to join my colleagues,
3 Senator Gold and Senator Abate, in commending
4 Senator Nozzolio and the Crime Victims, Crime
5 and Corrections Committee for their work on this
6 bill.
7 I've had the occasion in the last
8 year to visit two correctional facilities
9 located in my district, the Albion Correctional
10 Facility and the Orleans Correctional Facility,
11 and I have never seen a finer group or a better
12 trained group of individuals, men and women,
13 than the corrections officers who served in
14 those particular facilities.
15 And just as a further example,
16 Senator Nozzolio noted a couple of times about
17 the importance of training in this profession.
18 One of the counties that I represent, Niagara
19 County, just graduated its first class of
20 correction officers for its county jail, and I
21 would think that anything less than completely,
22 fully-trained -- and not only a onetime type
23 training but repetitive type training. As
3110
1 conditions change, as society changes, I think
2 we see the inmates within those facilities
3 change, and I think there has to be a consistent
4 updating of that type of training.
5 And as Senator Nozzolio I think
6 aptly pointed out, you are just not going to get
7 that type of commitment from a private company
8 whose only motivation is a bottom line profit.
9 So I just want to join my
10 colleagues, Senators Abate and Gold in
11 commending Senator Nozzolio.
12 Thank you.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
14 recognizes Senator Nozzolio to close debate.
15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
16 President.
17 I thank my colleagues, Senator
18 Maziarz, Senator Abate, Senator Gold, for their
19 discussion of this very important issue. That,
20 I ask my colleagues to focus on the central
21 effort here which is to insure security; and
22 when security is left to those who do not have
23 the first and last responsibility to the public,
3111
1 to the people of this state, that causes grave
2 concern.
3 Our correctional personnel across
4 this state in every corner of this state have
5 labored under very, very stressful, difficult
6 conditions and we reach out to them and thank
7 them for their efforts day-in and day-out on
8 behalf of the people of this state to keep them
9 safe and secure.
10 There is a commission on
11 privatization in this state, that's studying
12 privatizing a number of entities. That
13 privatization effort makes a great deal of
14 sense, but what we're doing with this measure is
15 not swimming upstream to that effort, not in any
16 way being contrary to that effort, rather we're
17 seeking out an area we believe strongly should
18 remain in government hands. Governor Pataki in
19 meeting with corrections officers a few summers
20 ago and discussing this issue with corrections
21 officers stood foursquare on this effort, which
22 is to insure that security remains in government
23 hands in an effort to insure that security is
3112
1 never subject to dollar signs, to profit motive,
2 and it is only concerned with the best interests
3 of the public.
4 That, we stand united in insuring
5 that the security function of correctional
6 facilities does remain secure and that we will
7 do all we can to work on behalf of those
8 courageous men and women to upgrade their
9 conditions, to make sure that there is safety in
10 the workplace, and do the kinds of things that
11 we should do as representative of this fine
12 group.
13 Mr. President, I appreciate the
14 opportunity to discuss this measure today, thank
15 my colleagues for engaging in the discussion and
16 ask for their full support in enacting this
17 measure.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
19 Secretary will read the last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
21 act shall take effect immediately.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
23 roll.
3113
1 (The Secretary called the roll.)
2 Senator Leichter to explain his
3 vote.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
5 President. When the bill was called, Senator
6 Paterson got up and he didn't just ask for an
7 explanation, he asked for a plausible
8 explanation and, frankly, I'm a little
9 skeptical. Was that an unfair burden?
10 But I just want to assure Senator
11 Nozzolio that he indeed gave a most plausible
12 explanation for the bill, and I want to identify
13 with his words that privatization is not the
14 answer to all governmental functions, that,
15 indeed, there are many functions that government
16 should never privatize.
17 It tended I think the whole
18 notion of privatization to be sort of a facile
19 solution. Privatize and we're going to save a
20 lot of money, and government will be less
21 expensive.
22 I think as Senator Nozzolio
23 realizes, and he's told us, and Senator Maziarz
3114
1 also was very eloquent on this point, that there
2 are things that government can not and should
3 not privatize, and I submit it is not only
4 Corrections but that most functions that
5 governments perform need to be done by
6 government with the accountability and
7 responsibility that only government can impose.
8 Mr. President. I vote in the
9 affirmative.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
11 the results.
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 Senator Maziarz, we have a motion
16 we could take up at this time, if you would like
17 to, if that's permissible.
18 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Fine.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Okay.
20 We'll return to motions and resolutions.
21 The Chair recognizes Senator
22 Gold.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
3115
1 President, or Madam President as the slant may
2 be.
3 On page 25, on behalf of Senator
4 Oppenheimer, a distinguished member of this body
5 from the great county of Westchester, we move
6 the following amendments to Calendar Number 560,
7 Print Number 1338-A, and we ask that the bill
8 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
9 You want an explanation? This bill changes some
10 of the prior wording.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 amendments to Calendar Number 560 are received
13 and adopted.
14 SENATOR GOLD: I have just been
15 what we call "Velellaized".
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 will retain its place on the Third Reading
18 Calendar.
19 Senator Maziarz.
20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr.
21 President.
22 Mr. President, at this time, we
23 would like to return to reports of standing
3116
1 committees for the Education Committee report.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
3 a report from the Education Committee at the
4 desk. I'll ask the Secretary to read.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook,
6 from the Committee on Education, offers up the
7 following bill directly for third reading: By
8 Senator Connor, Senate Print 6811, an act to
9 amend a chapter of the Laws of 1996 amending
10 Chapter 399 of the Laws of 1995 amending the
11 Education Law.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
13 objection, the bill is ordered directly to third
14 reading.
15 Senator Maziarz.
16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
17 at this time we would like to call up Calendar
18 S.6811, please.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will read.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 645, by Senator Connor, Senate Print 6811, an
23 act to amend a chapter of the Laws of 1996
3117
1 amending Chapter 399 of the Laws of 1995
2 amending the Education Law.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Maziarz.
5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Is there a
6 message of necessity at the desk, Mr.
7 President?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Maziarz, there is.
10 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Move to accept
11 it.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 motion is to accept the message of necessity at
14 the desk, the bill before the house. All those
15 in favor signify by saying aye.
16 (Response of "Aye".)
17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Opposed,
19 nay.
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President,
21 is this on the message?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: This is
23 on the message. All those opposed, nay.
3118
1 (There was no response.)
2 The message is accepted.
3 Senator Padavan, did you wish to
4 speak on the bill?
5 The Secretary will read the last
6 section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
8 act shall -
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, I do.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Padavan.
12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President,
13 this bill amends a law we passed -- or a bill we
14 passed last week which most of you will recall
15 because we had a considerable amount of debate
16 relevant to it. That bill dealt with the issue
17 of the chancellor's authority to suspend or
18 supersede community school boards beyond the
19 election of May 7th of this year and in
20 subsequent years, the logic being very simple,
21 namely that it would be inappropriate for school
22 boards that had been superseded or suspended for
23 valid reasons to be allowed to continue beyond
3119
1 May 7th by virtue of an election and
2 automatically to have those suspensions or
3 supersessions repealed.
4 Now, what this bill does, it
5 sunsets that law in three years, and what that
6 means basically and fundamentally is that three
7 years from now, should the situation replicate
8 itself, namely should there be a pending
9 election, and at that moment preceding it,
10 school boards that have been superseded or
11 suspended by the chancellor within his authority
12 to do, that we would have to revisit and do this
13 all over again. Now, obviously the sponsor of
14 this bill, the supporters of this bill, want
15 that to happen.
16 My attitude and feeling is
17 opposite to that view. It seems to me that
18 irrespective of when, this year or three years
19 from now or six years from now, a school board
20 has been superseded or suspended for valid
21 reasons within the authority and scope of the
22 chancellor as authorized by the decentralization
23 law in existence for 26 years, that an election
3120
1 of a community school board should not
2 automatically repeal that suspension.
3 And so for that reason, Mr.
4 President, I will be voting against this bill.
5 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
7 recognizes Senator Connor.
8 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
9 President.
10 As we were all aware, we enacted
11 a bill a week or two ago to confer some
12 extraordinary power on the chancellor, and some
13 members of this house were against it and some
14 of us voted for it with great trepidation. We
15 were willing to go and give -- under the
16 circumstances that have beset the New York City
17 school system in these past couple of years in
18 terms of governance, we were willing for this
19 chancellor, to give him the responsibility and
20 the accountability to do something about it over
21 the course of the next year, in certain
22 specified circumstances.
23 What made it extraordinary was
3121
1 the concept that where a board was superseded
2 that newly-elected board members elected this
3 May 7th could, in effect, be kept from taking
4 office for up to one year at the discretion of
5 the chancellor.
6 This chapter amendment which I'm
7 happy to sponsor will ensure that that
8 extraordinary power conferred upon the
9 chancellor only applies to this year's election,
10 and that before there's another school board
11 election three years hence, it will expire, and
12 if there's to be any other tinkering with the
13 election process, that this Legislature would
14 have to revisit the issue and at that time could
15 say, "Wait a minute. What good -- what good for
16 the children of the city of New York came out of
17 the tinkering that went on last time? Why would
18 you ever need this power again?" It either
19 worked, was successful in those certain
20 districts and we don't need this law, or it
21 didn't work and what's the purpose of a law like
22 this? So the effect of this sunset will be to
23 ensure that that power can only be used this
3122
1 year, one-time only chance -- a one-time only
2 chance for the students of New York City, but
3 not a permanent part of the law.
4 I would urge its adoption, Mr.
5 President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
7 recognizes Senator Mendez.
8 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President -
9 thank you, Mr. President.
10 Would Senator Connor yield for a
11 question?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Connor, do you yield to Senator Mendez?
14 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes, certainly.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Senator yields.
17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Connor,
18 I understand that the chapter amendment was
19 supposed to sunset after one year of us
20 providing the chancellor with the new powers,
21 but isn't this bill -- doesn't this bill state
22 that if the powers will last for three years,
23 why the change?
3123
1 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator, there
2 was no change. The idea was to sunset it after
3 one election. Actually, as a practical matter,
4 whether this sunsets in one year or two years or
5 three years, doesn't matter, since in that
6 three-year period, there's only one school board
7 election this May. So, I mean, it really -
8 it's really a difference without any substance
9 or without any effect.
10 As I understood the agreement
11 that I had, it was that this law that we passed
12 a week or two ago would only apply to this
13 year's school board election, and this chapter
14 amendment accomplishes that.
15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Will the Senator
16 yield for another question?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Connor, do you continue to yield?
19 SENATOR CONNOR: Certainly.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Senator continues to yields.
22 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Connor,
23 does -- this chapter amendment then means that
3124
1 the chancellor will have these extraordinary
2 powers for another three years and in the event
3 that there is another election, he would also be
4 able to supersede the board or not.
5 SENATOR CONNOR: No.
6 SENATOR MENDEZ: So it will last
7 for three years.
8 SENATOR CONNOR: It lasts for
9 this election only. The law will remain on the
10 books for three years, but the only -- the law
11 that was passed only applied to an election
12 year, which is this year.
13 SENATOR MENDEZ: I see.
14 SENATOR CONNOR: Before the next
15 election, the powers will expire under this. So
16 it can never apply again.
17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you,
18 Senator Connor.
19 I was very distressed, Mr.
20 President, when we passed that legislation a
21 couple of weeks ago, providing the chancellor
22 with extraordinary powers. I mentioned at the
23 time, Mr. President, that those extraordinary
3125
1 powers were not necessary at all because,
2 according to election law, the chancellor did,
3 in fact, have the power to start all over the
4 process and supersede whichever school board he
5 wanted to do, and that he felt it was necessary
6 to supersede.
7 I am sorry I am going to be
8 consistent. I voted in the negative for that
9 bill, and on this instance, I am voting against
10 this chapter amendment because I truly believe
11 that it is not necessary at all and that the
12 miseducation of the kids -- of the children in
13 the school system of New York is not -- is not
14 the -- the -- is not due to the policy-making
15 bodies that are the school boards of the
16 community school boards.
17 So, Mr. President, I vote in the
18 negative. Besides, I note for the record that,
19 although we're talking here about one election,
20 if I recall distinctly well, at the time of the
21 debate last time, it was supposed to be for the
22 chapter -- the chapter amendment was supposed to
23 last for one year, the powers to the chancellor
3126
1 for one year.
2 So, regardless, it doesn't make
3 any difference at this point, but I think it's
4 that we have embarked on a course that is -
5 that does not provide solutions to the -- to
6 improve the education of the children in the
7 schools of the city of New York.
8 Therefore, Mr. President, I'm
9 voting in the negative.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Gold.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I
13 voted against the original bill and, therefore,
14 I really am compelled to support this bill
15 because if I don't like the idea, I don't know
16 why I would want it to remain on the books
17 forever and, therefore, I would vote for it.
18 At the time that we took the
19 vote, there were comments made that there would
20 be a chapter coming, and while I never, in my
21 mind, ever questioned the sincerity of Senator
22 Connor wanting to have this on the floor and
23 passing it, since there are others involved and
3127
1 without demeaning anybody else, the point is
2 there are processes here. I was concerned that
3 we didn't do it at the same time.
4 I also feel very comfortable in
5 the fact that this bill is only affecting one
6 election, and the reason that I am so confident
7 is that while Senator Marchi and others have
8 really led the way to open up this process of
9 looking at the school boards and the elections
10 and to see what goes on, if we were to redo
11 this, if we were to have new elections, it can
12 only be by way of a process that required us to
13 pass a new law, and that law would either undo
14 this or include it, but the Legislature would be
15 involved in the process.
16 So I'm very comfortable in voting
17 for this, and I'm glad that since Senator Connor
18 was put out there on the limb, that the Majority
19 Leadership in the house has seen fit to take my
20 distinguished leader off that limb, and I hope
21 this passes.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Montgomery.
3128
1 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
2 President. I would like to ask my leader if he
3 would answer a clarification question.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Connor, do you yield to Senator Montgomery?
6 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes. Thank you,
7 Mr. President.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator
9 Connor, in the legislation that we passed was
10 included the provision that any school board
11 member who was convicted of a crime, I
12 believe -
13 SENATOR CONNOR: That's part of
14 the permanent law. That's a different section
15 of the law. This doesn't deal with that.
16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. So
17 this does not -- that does not sunset.
18 SENATOR CONNOR: This only deals
19 with the supersession. Someone convicted of a
20 crime is removed and based on other legislation
21 that passed earlier, they are barred from
22 re-election.
23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay.
3129
1 Because we included that provision, we -
2 SENATOR CONNOR: That will remain
3 part of the permanent law. This bill doesn't
4 deal with that.
5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: That was
6 what I wanted to know.
7 Thank you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other
9 Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
10 (There was no response.)
11 The Secretary will read the last
12 section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
16 roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Marchi to explain his vote.
20 SENATOR MARCHI: Just to explain
21 my vote. I'm not wedded to the concept in
22 perpetuity and if there is a restructuring, as
23 Senator Gold pointed out, I believe that the
3130
1 approach and the rationale would be changed and
2 it would be treated somewhat differently, but
3 under the circumstances as they exist today, I'm
4 compelled to support this legislation and
5 looking forward to the day when we tackle this
6 thing on a broader basis, but I identify myself
7 with Senator Padavan's position until we come to
8 that point.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Marchi will be recorded in the affirmative.
11 Announce the results.
12 Senator Marchi, you wish to be
13 recorded in the negative.
14 (Senator Marchi nods head.)
15 Senator Marchi in the negative.
16 Excuse me. Results.
17 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
18 the negative on Calendar Number 645 are Senators
19 Marchi, Mendez, Padavan and Velella. Ayes 55,
20 nays 4.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
22 is passed.
23 Senator Sears, why do you rise?
3131
1 SENATOR SEARS: Mr. President, I
2 wish to call up my bill 210-D having passed both
3 houses and not delivered to the Governor.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll
5 return to motions and resolutions.
6 The Secretary will read the bill.
7 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Sears,
8 Senate Print 210-D, an act to amend the Penal
9 Law.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Sears.
12 SENATOR SEARS: Mr. President, I
13 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
14 bill passed and ask that the bill be restored to
15 the order of third reading.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 motion is to reconsider the vote by which the
18 bill passed the house. The Secretary will call
19 the roll on reconsideration.
20 (The Secretary called the roll on
21 reconsideration.)
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3132
1 Sears.
2 SENATOR SEARS: Mr. President,
3 would you please place a sponsor's star on the
4 bill.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the
6 request of the sponsor, the bill will be
7 starred.
8 Senator Marcellino.
9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
10 President, on behalf of Senator Nozzolio, please
11 place a sponsor's star on Calendar Number 304.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the
13 request of the sponsor, Calendar Number 304 will
14 be starred.
15 Senator Maziarz.
16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
17 at this time, I would like to call up Calendar
18 Number 201, Senate Bill 1728, sponsored by
19 Senator Johnson.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Secretary will read 201, Calendar Number 201.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 201, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1728, an
3133
1 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
2 chemical agents and chemical agent weapons.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Johnson, an explanation of Calendar Number 201
6 has been asked for by Senator Paterson.
7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
8 this bill would legalize the possession of
9 chemical agent weapons for self-defense. We're
10 talking about mace and pepper spray. Not to be
11 redundant, but we've had this debate for about
12 six years now, and it's been approved
13 overwhelmingly every time. It hasn't passed the
14 other house yet.
15 Maybe some people feel because
16 crime is declining in New York City that we
17 don't need to be able to defend ourselves
18 anymore, but we do. There's still a million and
19 a half crimes each year in this state. About 40
20 percent of them are assault, rape, robbery.
21 People have no effective way to defend
22 themselves and -- unless they happen to have a
23 weapon. A lot of people don't want to use a
3134
1 weapon. Many people, particularly women, would
2 prefer to use mace to defend themselves, and
3 some have successfully done so and been
4 prosecuted. I don't think that's right. I
5 don't think anyone ought to be prosecuted for
6 trying to defend themselves.
7 You know, when I first started
8 this discussion, there were three states that
9 were not allowed to possess mace or chemical
10 spray for self-defense. Well, we hung in there
11 long enough and now we're the only state in the
12 Union, including D.C., which does not permit you
13 to defend yourself with a chemical spray
14 weapon. This is, of course, worse than obscene,
15 the fact that we're not permitted to defend
16 ourselves in this state. In fact, it's kind of
17 interesting. I guess it would be easier for a
18 lady, if she wanted to defend herself or another
19 person for that matter, to get a license for a
20 pistol. They could defend themselves with a
21 pistol because that is permitted under a section
22 of the law. It's difficult but not impossible,
23 but it's impossible legally to possess a can of
3135
1 mace.
2 I think this has to change. This
3 bill will change that, and I think everyone
4 ought to vote in favor of it.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. -- if -
8 Mr. President, if Senator Johnson would yield
9 for a question.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Johnson, do you yield to Senator Paterson?
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Yes, Mr.
13 President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Senator yields.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
17 Johnson, do you think this remedy is enough when
18 Congressman Solomon believes that his wife needs
19 an AK 47?
20 SENATOR JOHNSON: Senator, I
21 don't have my hearing aid on today. Could you
22 say it a little louder and more clearly, please.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Well,
3136
1 actually, Senator, I have another question. I
2 wanted to know what is available on the market
3 right now that would actually not entail the
4 passage of this bill. Are there actually any
5 sprays that a person could use for their own
6 defense that are on the market right now?
7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Oh, I guess
8 oven cleaner, you know, yellow jacket spray, all
9 sorts of thing you could spray in someone's
10 face, but you might really do them a lot of harm
11 and they're not very compact or easily handled
12 in your handbags. So I think this is probably
13 the best possible solution, Senator.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Very good,
15 Senator.
16 By the way -- on the bill, Mr.
17 President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Paterson on the bill.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Last year in
21 engaging in discussion with Senator Johnson on
22 this piece of legislation, I referred to it by
23 its commercial name, and counsel has been
3137
1 contacted by the counsel for the company -
2 which I won't say here, but it could be mace -
3 and we would just like to correct the record,
4 since there is no liability for statements made
5 here on the Senate floor, but actually we are
6 talking about what are really chemical agent
7 materials or pepper-based sprays. Those are
8 what may have a commercial name by that but also
9 carry other names of other companies who provide
10 this product, and I just wanted to set the
11 record straight for last year's debate and for
12 this one as well.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Farley.
16 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
17 President.
18 I feel I have to speak on this
19 bill because a few years ago, I put in one of my
20 newsletters, as we all do sometimes, a question
21 about the legalization of mace, and the fact
22 that I think at that time all 49 states had
23 allowed the sale of mace and the District of
3138
1 Columbia had not. Now the District of Columbia
2 has, but let me just say this: I received a
3 possible inundation of mail, particularly from
4 women. If there was a woman's issue, this
5 certainly has to be it. I received hundreds and
6 hundreds of letters, almost unanimously urging
7 the legalization of it, and the thing that
8 bothered me somewhat about it was many of them
9 were saying that they're already using it, which
10 I think is rather unfortunate because when a law
11 is not respected, it's generally speaking a bad
12 law. So here we have a situation where many
13 women still carry it in their purse. I can
14 recall Senator Goodhue saying that -- on this
15 floor that she was carrying it herself and
16 wasn't a bit ashamed of it, and I think it's
17 unfortunate that this Legislature -- and I'm not
18 speaking of this Senate because we had passed it
19 rather overwhelmingly year after year -- has not
20 allowed, particularly the women of this -- of
21 this state to be able to protect themselves with
22 mace. It is of a defective -- it is an
23 effective deterrent to people that would do harm
3139
1 to an individual, and I think its time has come
2 to legalize it.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Gold, why do you rise?
5 SENATOR GOLD: Will the
6 distinguished professor yield to a question?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Farley, do you yield to Senator Gold?
9 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes, I will.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Senator yields.
12 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, first of
13 all, I understand -- I don't know the lines
14 exactly, but I believe you represent the
15 Schenectady area and surrounding -
16 SENATOR FARLEY: I have four
17 counties. I have Schenectady. I share Saratoga
18 County with the Majority Leader.
19 SENATOR GOLD: And could you give
20 us an idea -
21 SENATOR FARLEY: Montgomery
22 County and Fulton County.
23 SENATOR GOLD: -- Senator, the
3140
1 crime rate in those counties is pretty bad
2 compared to the rest of the state.
3 SENATOR FARLEY: I would say it's
4 about on a par with the rest of the state. It
5 hasn't, thank goodness -
6 SENATOR GOLD: If I could -
7 SENATOR FARLEY: I'd like to
8 finish answering the question.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, of course.
10 SENATOR FARLEY: I'd like to pay
11 tribute to Mayor Giuliani and the late -- the
12 police commissioner who just left, of New York
13 City, because the crime rate has seriously gone
14 down, which is rewarding, but our crime rate is
15 about average throughout the state.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Will the Senator
17 yield?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Farley, do you continue to yield?
20 SENATOR FARLEY: Yes.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Senator does.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, when you
3141
1 say it's "average", in other words, you mean -
2 it's about the same as it is, for example, in
3 the Times Square area of New York. It's about
4 the same as areas of Brooklyn and Jamaica and
5 the Bronx. Is that what you mean by "average"?
6 SENATOR FARLEY: No. That's what
7 you might mean by "average". I don't think -
8 I'm talking about statewide average.
9 SENATOR GOLD: Well, isn't it a
10 fact, Senator, that these lucky people who are
11 represented by you -- and I don't mean that
12 sarcastically -- are living in a relatively safe
13 area?
14 SENATOR FARLEY: Is that -- are
15 you asking me that question?
16 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Isn't your
17 area a relatively safe area?
18 SENATOR FARLEY: They don't have
19 the grave concerns that they do in some of your
20 urban areas. When I was chairman of the Aging
21 Committee and I was holding hearings in New York
22 City and Senator Markowitz -- who I don't see
23 him here -- in his district on some aging
3142
1 issues, guess what they were talking about?
2 It's all they wanted to talk about was the crime
3 threats and the fact that they really felt
4 endangered even though it was off the subject.
5 I realize that, and I'm sure that many of them
6 wished that they could legally carry mace.
7 SENATOR GOLD: If the Senator
8 will yield to a question.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Farley, do you continue to yield?
11 SENATOR FARLEY: Sure.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Senator continues to yield.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, you gave
15 credit to the mayor of the city of New York for
16 his -- for the fact that crime is dropping and
17 I'm -
18 SENATOR FARLEY: And also
19 Commissioner Brattan.
20 SENATOR GOLD: And Commissioner
21 Brattan, and I'm delighted that crime is
22 dropping. It's a -- it's a continuation of the
23 policies of Mayor Dinkins because it's a matter
3143
1 of record that crime was dropping during the
2 Dinkins administration but, Senator, this bill
3 is in no way intended by you to sabotage that
4 effort on behalf of Mayor Giuliani, is it?
5 SENATOR FARLEY: To sabotage it?
6 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. I mean -
7 SENATOR FARLEY: I don't quite
8 understand what you mean. I think that this
9 would aid Mayor Giuliani in his quest to lower
10 crime even more. I think that if a mugger knows
11 that his potential victim has mace, they may try
12 another victim.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Or shoot him.
14 SENATOR FARLEY: I didn't think
15 you could carry guns in the city of New York.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator,
17 you're telling me in your distinguished area
18 they can't carry mace but they do it anyway.
19 Senator, let me just ask you a
20 question. Mayor Giuliani who is doing some fine
21 things for the city of New York -- and there are
22 people who criticize him in other ways, but
23 certainly as a former United States Attorney, he
3144
1 came in with a law enforcement attitude and, as
2 you say, he had Commissioner Brattan and now
3 he's got the fire commissioner who is the police
4 commissioner, and he's very much involved with
5 crime issues, has the City crime statistics
6 going down and his representative, Robert
7 Harding files a memorandum saying, thanks but no
8 thanks. This is not for us. Now, that's why I
9 say to you, Senator, are you trying to sabotage
10 the mayor, and I know you're not but, Senator,
11 if the mayor of the city of New York, who you
12 acknowledge and you say is fighting crime and
13 bringing down our crime statistics, tells you in
14 a memo that this legislation will cause problems
15 in the City, why would you as a stellar member
16 of the Republican Party want to sabotage our
17 Republican mayor in his efforts to make the City
18 safe?
19 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, I am so
20 pleased that you are supporting the mayor of the
21 city of New York because -
22 SENATOR GOLD: Always do when
23 he's right.
3145
1 SENATOR FARLEY: -- I think that
2 you're on the right track in doing that, Senator
3 Gold, and I applaud you for that, but let me
4 just say that I think that the mayor hasn't
5 spoken to me personally on this. I see that his
6 memorandum comes from one of the police staff
7 members, is that correct?
8 SENATOR GOLD: It's from the
9 legislative representative, Robert M. Harding,
10 Director of State Legislative Affairs, and he
11 speaks for the mayor.
12 SENATOR FARLEY: Well, I think
13 that Mr. Harding is misinformed or wrong on this
14 issue. I think that this could really help the
15 crime rate go down. I'll put it that way. I
16 think -- in my judgment, I think mace can be a
17 very effective deterrent to crime.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, on
19 the bill.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Gold on the bill.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I
23 have been around a day or two and, you know, you
3146
1 can't help being here without getting reactions
2 as to people, and if I have to talk behind Owen
3 Johnson's back, I tell everybody he's a very,
4 very sincere and -- person, and I feel the same
5 way about Professor Farley, but the bottom line
6 here is that it's not only important as
7 legislators that we have ideas and we speak our
8 opinion, but as somebody told me earlier today
9 -- I was in the nurse's office -- she said, you
10 know, you have two ears and one mouth, and
11 there's a reason for that relationship. We're
12 not only supposed to voice our opinions, we're
13 supposed to listen once in a while.
14 Now, the mayor's office of the
15 city of New York is very concerned about this.
16 They say that "the proliferation of such weapons
17 in the city of New York would create a problem,
18 that greater availability would inevitably
19 result in the risk of lost and accidental and
20 unintentional and intentional misuse, the
21 discharge of nocuous materials in a crowded
22 subway train or in any area of congestion would
23 likely cause serious injury or panic."
3147
1 Now, Senator Farley, I can
2 understand that a woman walking alone at night
3 in a dark area would like to have some
4 protection, but the bottom line is that a great
5 part of this state -- which I was going to say
6 like it or not -- I know you like it -- is the
7 city of New York. We have a subway system, and
8 all you need, Senator Farley, is one woman or
9 one man getting a little jittery in the subway
10 because the person next to them maybe is of a
11 nature that seems strange to them. They take
12 out their mace, fire it off in a subway car
13 during rush hour, and you not only have panic,
14 you have injured people; you have a disaster,
15 and Senator Johnson and Senator Farley, it is
16 really not a joke. This bill comes in every
17 year and Senator Lack and Senator Spano support
18 it, as does the king of the Adirondacks, but the
19 point is, the City -- aside from just creating
20 an opportunity for debate and the same debate
21 every year, it's not going anywhere because the
22 Assembly, which is a real statewide party,
23 having real representatives from upstate New
3148
1 York and from the city of New York, give some
2 respect to the City administration even when
3 it's a Republican mayor which, by the way, I
4 think is fascinating because I wish that the
5 Republican Governor of the state of New York
6 gave respect to the Republican mayor and the
7 budget took better care of the representatives
8 of that Republican mayor in the city of New
9 York.
10 I also wish that people like Bob
11 Dole and Newt Gingrich and Jerry Solomon gave
12 some respect to a Republican Governor and didn't
13 try to choke him off in this budget process as
14 they are doing. I think it's interesting that
15 Congressman Solomon who, of course, is one of
16 the most powerful members of Congress being the
17 chairman of the Rules Committee, instead of
18 worrying about getting us money for the state of
19 New York, wants his wife, Senator Farley, to be
20 able to have an assault weapon because, in her
21 area, which I thought was one of the safest in
22 the state, she's very, very nervous but, Senator
23 Farley, maybe you should write to Jerry Solomon
3149
1 and tell him, don't worry about the assault
2 bill. We're going to get her some mace, and
3 maybe he can bring some money into the state of
4 New York and we can take care of our budget.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Maziarz, did you have an announcement?
7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes, Mr.
8 President. I would just like to speak in favor
9 of this bill. You know, we often hear many
10 times about this -
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Padavan, I have you on the list.
13 Senator Maziarz, I thought -
14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I'm sorry. I
15 thought I was on the list. That's why you
16 recognized me.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Maziarz, perhaps you didn't hear me. I asked
19 you whether or not you had an announcement.
20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Oh, yes, I'm
21 sorry. There will be a Majority Conference
22 right after this debate, Mr. President, in Room
23 332.
3150
1 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me. There
2 will be a Finance -
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: For the
4 benefit of the members, both in the chamber and
5 out of the chamber, there will be a Majority
6 Conference immediately following the termination
7 of this bill. I did have a list going.
8 Senator Marcellino.
9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'll waive.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Marcellino waives.
12 Senator Padavan.
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President,
14 I'll be very brief -- is this a wave? You want
15 to start on that side? I'll be brief. I'll be
16 brief. Senator Gold's on the phone. I did want
17 him to hear as a loyal supporter of the mayor of
18 the city of New York, both times he ran and one
19 who would support him again when he runs for
20 re-election, I still have the prerogative of
21 disagreeing with him from time to time when I
22 feel that he's wrong and in this instance, he is
23 wrong.
3151
1 Most of us don't realize there
2 are thousands of men and women legally carrying
3 mace in the state of New York, in the city of
4 New York and throughout the state. They're
5 called postmen. They work for the U.S. Postal
6 Service, and because they're federal employees,
7 they're exempt from our prohibition, and they
8 carry it and legally carry it. So it doesn't
9 make any sense to me that if it's deemed
10 appropriate for postal workers to defend
11 themselves, whether it's against individuals or
12 animals, that the rest of this population should
13 be precluded.
14 And while the crime rate in the
15 city of New York has gone down and we've given
16 the proper credit for that, it's still very
17 high, and I might add that other parts of this
18 state, urban centers outside the city of New
19 York, in many cases, have not gone down, and
20 this is a statewide bill. So while we
21 concentrate our opposition here within the city
22 of New York, I think we must acknowledge the
23 fact that this bill relates to the entire state,
3152
1 and most states, including neighboring states
2 like Massachusetts allow mace, permit mace. The
3 city of Boston, with a very large urban center
4 and a large police force, has not had any
5 problems that were described by people who
6 object to this bill, and I don't think we'll
7 have any problems in the city of New York
8 either.
9 So for that reason, Mr.
10 President, I will vote for this bill.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Next and
12 last on my list is Senator Maziarz.
13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr.
14 President.
15 I will be very brief. I think
16 this bill -- many times we hear of legislation
17 whose time has come in the state of New York.
18 This piece of legislation is one whose time is
19 long overdue. I agree with my colleagues on
20 this side of the aisle that I too support the
21 mayor of the city of New York, but when he's
22 wrong, he's wrong. He was wrong in the last
23 gubernatorial election, and he is wrong in his
3153
1 position on this bill.
2 This is -- I spoke before a
3 woman's group two weeks ago in my district, and
4 one of their top priorities was this piece of
5 legislation sponsored by Senator Johnson.
6 Thank you, Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the last -
9 Senator Mendez, why do you rise?
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 Since Senator Johnson introduced
13 this bill some years back, I have consistently
14 supported this bill, Mr. President. I
15 understand that nine other states do make it
16 possible for women to use mace in the case of
17 being attacked. I don't know of any reason why
18 -- I don't know of any reason or any -- any
19 studies that do show that the experience with
20 approving -- making mace legal has been
21 detrimental in any way, either to police
22 officers or to anybody in those other states. I
23 think that this is kind of a simple protective
3154
1 weapon that women could use upon being attacked,
2 and I really cannot possibly understand the fuss
3 that is being made against this very simple
4 protective chemical.
5 So once more, Mr. President, I
6 will be supporting this bill. Judges do know -
7 do know the difference between using mace as a
8 protective device versus using mace to inflict
9 pain or incapacitate another human being, and
10 the cases that have been heard in New York, they
11 have very appropriately in a way exonerated the
12 women that have used it to protect themselves,
13 and this bill does, in fact, punish those who
14 are inclined or do, in fact, use mace to inflict
15 pain; in other words, that use mace for
16 aggressive rather than protective purposes. I
17 think it's a good bill, and I do hope to see the
18 day when my fellow colleagues in the Assembly do
19 pass this bill that is so very important for the
20 women of the state of New York to feel safer as
21 they go about their business in the City and in
22 the state of New York.
23 Thank you, Mr. President.
3155
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Secretary will read the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
4 act shall take effect on the first day of
5 November.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
10 the results when tabulated.
11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
12 the negative on Calendar Number 201, Senators
13 Abate, Connor, Gold, Seabrook and Smith. Ayes
14 54, nays 5.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 Senator Skelos, Senator Farley
18 has a resolution. We'll return to motions and
19 resolutions.
20 The Chair recognizes Senator
21 Farley.
22 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
23 Senator Levy, would you place a sponsor's star
3156
1 on Calendar Number 39.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: At the
3 request of the sponsor, Calendar Number 39 is
4 starred.
5 Senator Smith.
6 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mr.
7 President.
8 I request unanimous consent to be
9 recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 170
10 and also on Senate Bill Number S.6811. I do not
11 have the calendar number.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
13 objection.
14 (There was no response.)
15 Hearing no objection, Senator
16 Smith will be recorded in the negative on
17 Calendar Number 170 and also Calendar Number
18 645.
19 Senator Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there any
21 other housekeeping at the desk?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's
23 no other housekeeping at the desk, Senator
3157
1 Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an
3 immediate Majority Conference in Room 332 of the
4 Capitol and the Senate will stand at ease.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
6 will be an immediate meeting of the Majority
7 Conference in the Majority Conference Room, Room
8 332. Immediate meeting of the Majority
9 Conference in the Majority Conference Room, Room
10 332. The Senate will stand at ease.
11 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at
12 ease from 5:10 p.m. until 7:25 p.m.)
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
14 recognizes Senator Skelos.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an
16 immediate meeting of the Finance Committee in
17 the Majority Conference Room.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate
19 meeting of the Senate Finance Committee in the
20 Majority Conference Room, Room 332. Immediate
21 meeting of the Senate Finance Committee in the
22 Majority Conference Room, Room 332.
23 The Senate will stand at ease.
3158
1 (The Senate stood at ease from
2 7:26 p.m. to 7:40 p.m.)
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate
4 will come to order. Ask the members to find
5 their chairs, staff to find their places.
6 Senator Skelos.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
8 if we could return to reports of standing
9 committees, I believe there's a report from the
10 Finance Committee.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is,
12 Senator Skelos. We'll return to reports of
13 standing committees. I'll ask the Secretary to
14 road.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
16 from the Committee on Finance, reports the
17 following bill directly for third reading: By
18 the Committee on Rules, Senate Print 6845, an
19 act making appropriations for the support of
20 government.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
22 objection, the bill is reported directly to
23 third reading.
3159
1 Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
3 at this time, if we could take up Calendar 646,
4 Senate 6845.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
6 will read.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 646, by the Committee on Rules, Senate Print
9 Number 6845, an act making appropriations for
10 the support of government.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Skelos.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a
15 message of me necessity and appropriation at the
16 desk?
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is.
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is
20 to accept the message of necessity at the desk,
21 and appropriation. All those in favor signify
22 by saying aye.
23 (Response of "Aye.")
3160
1 Opposed nay.
2 (There was no response.)
3 The message is accepted.
4 Senator Paterson.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
6 I actually have read the bill entirely, so I
7 don't need an explanation, but what would be
8 beneficial is if Senator Stafford would yield
9 for a couple of questions relating to Section 35
10 of the appropriation.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Senator yields.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
14 much, Senator Stafford.
15 I just want to make sure I
16 understand this. If a not-for-profit
17 corporation that is providing services under a
18 state contract and has provided these services
19 under the current fiscal year and continues to
20 provide these services through the month of
21 April under the state contract, isn't it true
22 that the not-for-profit corporation can receive
23 payment from the state under the contract during
3161
1 that time?
2 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
4 Senator.
5 If the Senator would continue to
6 yield.
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Certainly.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Senator continues to yield.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: My
11 understanding, Senator, is that under the
12 appropriation that we are going to vote on in
13 just a moment, that if there were a hypothetical
14 situation that theoretically would -- would
15 involve -- the strings, Mr. President -
16 SENATOR STAFFORD: I'm very aware
17 of it.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: It's the first
19 time I ever stood here, must go with the
20 territory.
21 -- that if we're looking at a
22 state agency that wanted to relocate its
23 services to another place, that under this
3162
1 legislation -- under this appropriation it's my
2 understanding that they would not be able to
3 relocate?
4 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I don't
5 know as you could say it exactly that way.
6 Things could be done which can be done in the
7 ordinary course of business, here in the state
8 of New York.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Senator,
10 but a relocation would be not in the ordinary
11 course of business as much as it would be a
12 massive change.
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, we have
14 to define our terms and you and I know, for
15 instance, the reasonable man, the time we spent
16 in law school discussing what a reasonable man
17 is. It would take probably a number of hours.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, we're
19 certainly not going to discuss it now.
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: All right.
21 Thank you.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Paterson.
3163
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Therefore,
2 Senator, asserting the "reasonable man" test, if
3 there was any new initiative such as economic
4 development or consolidation of computers or
5 something like that, under the appropriation in
6 Section 35, this would not be accomplished
7 during the month of April under this
8 appropriation; is that not correct?
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: I don't mean
10 to be short here or to be flippant. I take it
11 seriously, you have a very serious question. I
12 just say again, as I said, when we pass an
13 appropriation, an appropriation will provide for
14 what can be legally done in the ordinary course
15 of business here in the state of New York.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Paterson.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I
19 would tend to think that, since we're already up
20 to April 2nd and we're talking about an
21 appropriation that expires on April 30th, that
22 an extraordinary circumstance would have to
23 occur within the next 28 days to use these state
3164
1 funds in that particular way, so I would just
2 suggest to you that that would be a rather
3 extraordinary sense or course of business that
4 would necessitate or be the catalyst for this
5 kind of expenditure.
6 So based on the fact that we're
7 really appropriating an extension, I would
8 suggest that it is most likely that it would not
9 happen during this time.
10 SENATOR STAFFORD: I -- I
11 certainly understand your suggestion.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Paterson.
14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I think
15 this -- going along with the way we conduct
16 business here, I think I could continue and say
17 that we don't expect any of the concerns which
18 you have put forth.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Mr.
20 President, I guess what I'm looking for in this
21 particular situation is -- is clarity. There is
22 a need that we have to continue the work of the
23 state as we try to pass the budget as we
3165
1 promised the constituents we represent, the
2 areas that we serve. This is the reason that
3 the Governor originally brought forth this
4 budget six weeks earlier than he usually does,
5 so I think that we have to be absolutely clear
6 on this point that we would not be thinking in
7 terms of relocating state offices, all types of
8 complex new initiatives such as economic
9 development or any kind of consolidations or
10 taking state agencies and sending them to
11 different parts of the state.
12 So I would want to be assured
13 that that will not happen at least between now
14 and a very short period of time which would be
15 Tuesday, April the 30th, which is exactly four
16 weeks from tonight. I would -- I would want to
17 know that that isn't going to happen, and under
18 the legislation that's what I understand is not
19 going to happen, but I'm just asking the sponsor
20 if we could have a clear definition of the
21 legislation that is a message to us that it will
22 not happen.
23 SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, of
3166
1 course, you know, it's how anyone looks at it.
2 As I said again, we don't expect anything like
3 that, but you know, one man's ceiling is another
4 man's floor. It's how you interpret things and
5 like this.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
9 if Senator would continue to yield, and then I
10 will yield the ceiling after that.
11 If it were the desire to move an
12 agency, if that were the purpose, if that were
13 something that was desired as a result of the
14 appropriation that we're passing here, does this
15 legislation make that possible; in other words,
16 is it provided in the legislation?
17 SENATOR STAFFORD: Where I'm very
18 encouraged, Senator, is what I am saying here in
19 the beginning I'm now being advised by my
20 counsel, so I'll again -
21 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Connor, why do you rise?
3167
1 SENATOR CONNOR: Perhaps I can
2 help. Perhaps I can obfuscate more but, if the
3 Senator would yield to a question, Senator
4 Stafford would yield to a question about this
5 section of the law. I'll try and clarify. My
6 goal is to clarify.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Stafford, do you yield?
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: Certainly.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 yields.
12 SENATOR CONNOR: Senator
13 Stafford, is it the intention of this section of
14 the legislation, and this appropriation, to
15 authorize any major initiatives involving
16 locations of state agencies or otherwise that
17 would not have already been authorized under the
18 law as it existed in the past fiscal year?
19 SENATOR STAFFORD: It is not the
20 intent.
21 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Stachowski, why do you rise?
3168
1 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr.
2 President, if Senator Stafford would yield to
3 one question.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Stafford, do you yield?
6 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Would -
7 Senator Stafford, would this section and that
8 appropriation provide that the scheduled
9 construction of roads and bridges in DOT go on
10 line and in a timely fashion so that we don't
11 lose the construction season as we did last year
12 under thea late budget?
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
14 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you
15 very much.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Cook, why do you rise?
18 SENATOR COOK: Senator Stafford,
19 would you yield to a question? If I could build
20 on Senator Connor's question for just a moment.
21 Would it be accurate to say that this
22 legislation does not change the law as it
23 relates to the relocation of state offices,
3169
1 therefore, whatever conditions exist and have
2 existed will continue to exist exactly as they
3 have been?
4 SENATOR STAFFORD: I could -- I
5 couldn't put it any better.
6 SENATOR COOK: Thank you.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
8 any other Senator wishing to speak on this bill?
9 Hearing none, the Secretary will read the last
10 section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
17 the results.
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
20 is passed.
21 Senator Bruno.
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, can
23 we call up Calendar Number 250 that was restored
3170
1 to the calendar earlier today?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
3 will read.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 250, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print Number
6 5830-A, an act to amend the Environmental
7 Conservation Law, in relation to identifying
8 certain persons who may receive food fish
9 licenses.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Bruno.
12 SENATOR BRUNO: Is there a
13 message at the desk?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
15 is.
16 SENATOR BRUNO: Move we adopt.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is
18 to accept the message of necessity at the desk.
19 All those in favor signify by saying aye.
20 (Response of "Aye.")
21 Opposed nay.
22 (There was no response.)
23 The message is accepted.
3171
1 The Secretary will read the last
2 section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 bill's passed.
11 Senator Skelos, we have one item
12 of housekeeping if we could take that up at this
13 time. Would that be O.K., Senator Bruno?
14 SENATOR BRUNO: Can we do that at
15 this time, Mr. President?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll
17 return to motions and resolutions. The Chair
18 would recognize Senator Maziarz.
19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
20 on behalf of Senator Nozzolio, on page 15, I
21 offer the following amendments to Calendar
22 Number 404, Senate Print Number 3731, and ask
23 that said bill retain its place on Third Reading
3172
1 Calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
3 Amendments to Calendar Number 404 received and
4 adopted. The bill will retain its place on the
5 Third Reading Calendar.
6 Senator Bruno.
7 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
8 can we at this time call for a meeting of the
9 Finance Committee in Room 332.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
11 will be an immediate meeting of the Senate
12 Finance Committee in the Majority Conference
13 Room, Room 332, immediate meeting of the Senate
14 Finance Committee in the Majority Conference
15 Room, Room 332.
16 The Senate will stand at ease
17 awaiting the report of the Senate Finance
18 Committee.
19 (The Senate stood at ease from
20 7:55 p.m,. to 8:20 p.m.)
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Senate will come to order. Members please find
23 their chairs, staff their places.
3173
1 Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
3 if we could return to reports of standing
4 committees, to the report of the Finance
5 Committee.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Return to
7 reports of standing committees. Secretary will
8 read the report of the Finance Committee.
9 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
10 Stafford, from the Committee on Finance reports
11 the following bill directly for third reading:
12 Senate Print 6846, by Senator Velella and
13 others, an act to amend the Insurance Law, in
14 relation to the availability of multi-tier
15 programs for homeowners insurance.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
17 objection, the bill is reported directly to
18 third reading.
19 Senator Skelos.
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
21 at this time if we could call up Senate 6846.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
23 will read.
3174
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 647, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 6846, an
3 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to
4 the availability of multi-tier programs for
5 homeowners insurance.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Skelos.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
9 is there a message of necessity at the desk?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
11 is.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: Move we accept.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is
14 to accept the message of necessity on Calendar
15 Number 647. All those in favor signify by
16 saying aye.
17 (Response of "Aye.")
18 Opposed nay.
19 (There was no response. )
20 The message is accepted.
21 Secretary will read the last
22 section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 13. This
3175
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Dollinger, why do you rise.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will the
5 sponsor yield just to one question, Mr.
6 President?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Velella, do you yield to one question from
9 Senator Dollinger?
10 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 yields.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: You and I had
14 an opportunity to talk about this. I'd just
15 like to put it on the record.
16 As you know, my concern with
17 respect to the water levels and the problems of
18 coastal zones really relates to Lake Ontario, my
19 portion of Monroe County. My question is,
20 what's the geographic scope of the cancellation
21 and the withdrawal plan provisions in this bill
22 and does it affect the Lake Ontario watershed as
23 well?
3176
1 SENATOR VELELLA: The scope of
2 when a company would be determined to be with
3 drawing from the market would be determined by
4 their own book of business, and that would have
5 statewide application, so that if a company were
6 writing business on Long Island, in New York
7 City and up in your area, the percentage or the
8 20 percent or 500 policies that would trigger
9 the issue of whether or not they were
10 systematically withdrawing from the marketplace
11 would be based on the cancellations of their
12 total book of business, not just one particular
13 locality.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. So
15 Senator Maziarz and Senator Nozzolio, Senator
16 Alesi and myself, that represent the flood plain
17 up and around Lake Ontario, if we were to inform
18 the superintendent that we wanted to make sure
19 he kept his eye on that portion of the state as
20 well with respect to cancellations and a
21 possible withdrawal plan, would this bill
22 authorize the superintendent to make such a
23 finding?
3177
1 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes. When the
2 system is triggered, then the superintendent's
3 investigation and determination of that is
4 area-specific. He will look at the area and see
5 if there is a withdrawal and call the company in
6 to file a plan and seek other markets or other
7 companies that might come in and write in that
8 market.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
10 President, on the bill just ever so briefly, I
11 appreciate the explanation of Senator Velella.
12 I also think I know that Senator Velella's staff
13 and mine have had a brief opportunity to discuss
14 an amendment which would deal with the problem
15 of wind-blown wave action and the impact that
16 that has on homeowners insurance. I know that
17 this bill is an extender that lasts for a period
18 of time. I hope that during the period of the
19 extension, we'll be able to look at that issue
20 more carefully and perhaps address what is a
21 significant issue in the Lake Ontario watershed
22 as well.
23 Thank you, Senator.
3178
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
2 any other Senator wishing to speak on Calendar
3 Number 647? Hearing none, the Secretary will
4 read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 13. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
12 is passed.
13 Senator Bruno.
14 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
15 there being no further business to come before
16 the Senate, I move that we stand adjourned until
17 Monday, April 15th at 3:00 p.m., intervening
18 days being legislative days, and all of this
19 being subject to call of the Majority Leader, so
20 that those members that are involved in the
21 process between now and April 15th know what
22 their responsibilities are and they will be
23 engaged in those responsibilities.
3179
1 Everyone have a safe and happy
2 holy day and holiday season.
3 Thank you, Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
5 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until
6 Monday, April 15th at 3:00 p.m., intervening
7 days to be legislative days, and subject to the
8 call of the Majority Leader.
9 (Whereupon at 8:25 p.m., the
10 Senate adjourned.)
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23