Regular Session - April 22, 1996
3556
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 April 22, 1996
10 3:05 p.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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3557
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
3 come to order.
4 Will everyone please rise and
5 join me in the Pledge of Allegiance.
6 (The assemblage repeated the
7 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
8 The invocation today will be
9 given by the Reverend Jagow of the Concordia
10 Lutheran Church in Lockport. Reverend Jagow is
11 also chaplain of the Firemens' Association of
12 New York State.
13 Reverend Jagow.
14 REVEREND JAGOW: Thank you for
15 this privilege.
16 We pray, Almighty God, we give
17 You thanks for our respective communities.
18 Merge us into a common purpose of protecting
19 them and providing for a higher quality of life
20 in this great state of New York. In Your hands
21 lie the destinies of all persons, and help us as
22 fire service and legislators to feel our sacred
23 unity as members of the human family. Make us
3558
1 alert, vigilant and in concord as to our
2 services to our community.
3 May the spirit of love and good
4 will possess and control our hearts as we bring
5 blessedness to needy humanity and especially to
6 those who look to us for protection.
7 Bless the members of the
8 Firemens' Association of the state of New York,
9 fire service personnel, and especially on this
10 day, give blessing to the members of this
11 session of the Senate. May we all call it a
12 blessing and honor and privilege to serve. In
13 Your name. Amen.
14 Thank you.
15 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
16 Reverend Jagow.
17 The reading of the Journal,
18 please.
19 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
20 Sunday, April 21st. The Senate met pursuant to
21 adjournment. Prayer by the Reverend Peter G.
22 Young. The Journal of Saturday, April 20th, was
23 read and approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
3559
1 THE PRESIDENT: Without
2 objection, the Journal stands approved as
3 read.
4 Presentation of petitions.
5 Messages from the Assembly.
6 Messages from the Governor.
7 Reports of standing
8 committees.
9 Reports of select committees.
10 Communications and reports from
11 state officers.
12 Motions and resolutions.
13 Senator Farley.
14 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you,
15 Madam President. On behalf of Senator Cook,
16 would you please place a sponsor's star on
17 Calendar 544.
18 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
19 starred.
20 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
21 Senator Libous, Madam President, on page 40, I
22 offer the following amendments to Calendar 191,
23 Senate Print 5724A, and I ask that that bill
3560
1 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
2 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
3 received.
4 SENATOR FARLEY: And on behalf
5 of Senator Goodman, Madam President, on page 23,
6 I offer the following amendments to Calendar
7 430, Senate Print 4632B, and I ask that that
8 bill retain its place.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
10 received.
11 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
12 myself, on page 29, I offer the following
13 amendments to Calendar 550, Senate Print 2084,
14 and I ask that that bill retain its place on the
15 Third Reading Calendar.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
17 received.
18 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno.
20 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam
21 President, I believe there is a privileged
22 resolution at the desk by Senator Marcellino. I
23 ask at this time the title be read and we move
3561
1 its adoption.
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
3 will read.
4 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
5 Marcellino, Legislative Resolution commemorating
6 the 26th Anniversary of Earth Day, April 22nd,
7 1996.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
9 Marcellino.
10 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Madam
11 President. This particular resolution -- and
12 Madam President, I would offer that this
13 resolution be open to everyone in the chamber
14 or everyone who wishes to be a co-sponsor in
15 our usual way, that we put everybody on unless
16 they otherwise indicate. So, without
17 objection -
18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno.
19 SENATOR BRUNO: Please.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Everyone will
21 be placed as a co-sponsor.
22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank
23 you, Madam President. Thank you, Senator.
3562
1 This is the 26th Anniversary of
2 Earth Day and this is one of the key days in our
3 history and, as environmental chair of the state
4 Senate, I rise to commend all those who over the
5 years have paid a lot of attention, expended a
6 lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of
7 their resources to support our most cherished
8 environment.
9 Years ago when this resolution
10 -- before Earth Day -- when Earth Day was first
11 formed, you could see the air in New York City
12 that you were breathing and those of us who used
13 to drive into the City on a routine basis used
14 to joke about it, how tough we were because in
15 New York we could see the air we breathe. This
16 is not a positive.
17 It's a pleasure today not to be
18 able to make that joke. It's a pleasure today
19 to be able to say that the drinking water that
20 we drink is clean, the air we breathe is clear,
21 and the ground we walk on, the forest land and
22 the parks are being well protected and there
23 are many, many millions of people out there who
3563
1 are very concerned and willing to spend a lot of
2 time and effort to make sure that they stay
3 protected.
4 This resolution is to honor
5 them and to honor the leadership that has taken
6 steps to make sure that environmental laws were
7 passed and enforced that were needed and that
8 there will always be in the state of New York a
9 consensus that our environment is something
10 that is precious, it's the only one we've got,
11 and we must preserve and protect it to our
12 utmost.
13 I thank you.
14 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Madam
15 President.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
17 Oppenheimer.
18 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I thank
19 Senator Marcellino for bringing this forth -- we
20 haven't had this in some of our past years -
21 this resolution which this year designates the
22 26th Anniversary of Earth Day.
23 And Earth Day really launched
3564
1 the environmental movement and our conservation
2 laws and there are many celebrations and
3 speeches and rallies going on today and actually
4 through the weekend, we had many clean-ups of
5 our beaches and parks all around New York State,
6 and I did want to note some things here in the
7 New York State Senate today.
8 The laws and safeguards have
9 done wonders for us. Our air is cleaner, as
10 Senator Marcellino has mentioned, our lakes, our
11 streams are purer, toxic waste dumps are being
12 cleaned relatively slowly, but we are proceed
13 ing, and our beautiful natural resources are
14 less likely to be exploited.
15 Now, internationally, many
16 nations are working together on environmental
17 programs. One highly noted agreement will
18 eliminate the use of CFCs -- that's chloro
19 fluorocarbons -- in a few years, which we hope
20 will reduce the damage which has occurred in our
21 atmosphere's ozone level.
22 Nationally, here in America,
23 USA Today reports that big steps have occurred
3565
1 in cleaning our environment in our country.
2 Ninety percent of us, which surprised me,
3 ninety percent of us do recycle at home; 71
4 percent of us in America purchase biodegrad
5 able products; 62 percent of us in America
6 recycle at work, certainly we do that here in
7 the Legislature; and 37 percent -- that's quite
8 a large percent to my way of thinking -
9 contribute money to environmental or wildlife
10 conservation groups.
11 America's business is also
12 responding. Many manufacturers are cutting down
13 on packaging materials. Between 1980 and 1990,
14 there was an 18 percent per capita decrease in
15 grocery packaging discards alone.
16 Preservation of raw materials,
17 our natural resources, is furthered by soft
18 drink manufacturers, for example, using one
19 example. They are using significantly less of
20 the raw materials in producing their containers.
21 Aluminum cans use 41 percent less material than
22 they used to; glass bottles, 43 percent less;
23 and the two-liter plastic bottle uses 21 percent
3566
1 less raw materials than they did when they first
2 came out.
3 Just downstairs in the Empire
4 State Plaza at our Convention Center, today and
5 tomorrow is the New York State Environmental
6 Technology Conference and Fair. It's promoting
7 development of environmental technologies that
8 conserve energy, prevent pollution, and conserve
9 resources that are needed for our future growth
10 here in New York. I've often said that envir
11 onmental protection and business development are
12 not competing needs. Indeed, environmental needs
13 can be an engine for economic development. New
14 York State's environmental industries presently
15 generate more than $10 billion in revenues.
16 If New York is looking for
17 global markets, this is the route. The
18 Organization of Economic Cooperation and
19 Development in Paris estimates that the global
20 market for environmental goods and services will
21 reach $300 billion by the year 2000.
22 I hope that knowing about the
23 scope of the green or environmental tide that's
3567
1 sweeping our world will give each of us a sense
2 of urgency about enforcing our environmental
3 laws, protecting our wild lands and open spaces,
4 refinancing our state superfund program,
5 enacting a citizens' suit law, and also Senator
6 Tully's pesticides reporting bill.
7 Concerning this last bill,
8 citizens have a right to know the type of
9 pesticides being used on their street. This
10 bill would establish an easily accessible,
11 computerized data base. There's a growing body
12 of scientific evidence linking breast cancer to
13 the environment. The National Cancer Institute
14 says one in eight women will contract breast
15 cancer and, of that, one-third will die. Most
16 Senators say they support Senator Tully's bill.
17 I look forward to it being brought to the floor
18 of the Senate.
19 Grass roots activism has moved
20 the environmental movement. We must not permit
21 a weakening of our environmental protections,
22 nor a rollback of these programs. We must
23 maintain them for our children and their
3568
1 progeny. Young people today respect the earth
2 and are committed to its care. We have one
3 earth and one last chance to repair all the
4 damage the preceding generations and our, my
5 generation, did. I certainly hope we don't
6 blow it.
7 Thank you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
9 any other Senator wishing to speak on the
10 resolution?
11 The Chair recognizes Senator
12 Leichter.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
14 President, I commend Senator Marcellino in
15 bringing this resolution before us and opening
16 it up for the house. I think it certainly
17 expresses the sentiments that all of us have, a
18 commitment to a clean environment and to a
19 healthy and prosperous nation. But let me just
20 say, Mr. President, that it's easy to pass a
21 resolution but, of course, what is important is
22 to pass laws that will assure people clean
23 water, clean air, that there aren't toxic dumps
3569
1 that may be poisoning their children and
2 creating illness and death among our people.
3 If you would read, and I urge
4 all of you, a New York Times editorial today
5 which shows how environmental protections that
6 we have taken for granted are very much under
7 attack in the House of Representatives. We
8 cannot take satisfaction in what we've achieved
9 so far; and Senator Oppenheimer very rightly
10 pointed out how the American people and
11 certainly here the people of New York State have
12 committed themselves to a clean environment, but
13 I think that none of us should take an attitude
14 that we have achieved what we wanted. Maybe
15 about the environment one could say what one
16 says about freedom and liberty, that it requires
17 eternal vigilance.
18 Thank you, Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other
20 Senator wishing to speak on the resolution?
21 (There was no response.)
22 Hearing none, the question is on
23 the resolution. All those in favor of the
3570
1 resolution, signify by saying aye.
2 (Response of aye.)
3 Opposed, nay.
4 The resolution is unanimously
5 adopted.
6 Senator Bruno, that brings us to
7 the calendar.
8 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
9 can we at this time take up the noncontroversial
10 calendar.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the noncontroversial
13 calendar beginning with Calendar Number 507.
14 Senator Leichter, why do you
15 rise?
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Mr.
17 President. With the consent of the Majority
18 Leader, it's my very distinct privilege and
19 pleasure to introduce to the house a very
20 distinguished foreign visitor.
21 We have with us today the Consul
22 General of the Republic of Austria, my
23 birthplace, Dr. Walter Greinert, a very
3571
1 distinguished member of the diplomatic corps and
2 a very fine representative of his country. He's
3 visiting Albany today, and, Mr. President, I
4 hope you'll extend to him the greetings of the
5 membership of the house. Dr. Greinert.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes, Mr.
7 Consul General. On behalf of Senator Bruno,
8 Senator Leichter, and all the members of the
9 house, we welcome you to our chamber, and hope
10 you have a most enjoyable, informative day in
11 the New York State Senate. Thank you for
12 joining us.
13 (Applause.)
14 Secretary will read the non
15 controversial calendar.
16 THE SECRETARY: On page 26,
17 Calendar Number 507, by Senator Volker, Senate
18 Print 6219, an act to amend the Vehicle and
19 Traffic Law, in relation to additional traffic
20 regulations in cities with a population in
21 excess of 250,000.
22 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President,
23 star that bill, please.
3572
1 THE PRESIDENT: At the
2 request of the sponsor, Calendar Number 507 is
3 starred.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 517, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4039, an
6 act to amend the Social Services Law in relation
7 to the capacity of foster family boarding homes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Secretary will read the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 3.
11 This act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
13 the roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 bill is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 522, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 668, and
20 act to amend the General Municipal Law, in
21 relation to reporting information to the United
22 States Immigration and Naturalization Service.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay aside.
3573
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
2 bill aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 552, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 6314, an
5 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation
6 to schedules of controlled substances.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
10 This act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
12 the roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 bill is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 553, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1446, an
19 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
20 the designation of August 7th as Family Day, a
21 day of commemoration.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Secretary will read the last section.
3574
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
2 This act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
4 the roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll.)
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 bill is passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 554, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2404A, an act
11 to amend the Public Officers Law, in relation to
12 defense and indemnification of employees.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 Secretary will read the last section.
15 THE SECRETARY: Section 3.
16 This act shall take effect immediately.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
18 the roll.
19 (The Secretary called the roll.)
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 bill is passed.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3575
1 559, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 381, an act
2 to amend the Railroad Law, in relation to
3 requiring trains operating in this state to have
4 operable electronic voice communication.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Secretary will read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 3.
8 This act shall take effect on the 180th day.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 51.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 bill is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 565, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 4147A, an act
17 to amend the Transportation Law, in relation to
18 authorization of transportation to approve
19 funding for improvements to certain airports.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Secretary will read the last section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
23 This act shall take effect immediately.
3576
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
2 the roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll.)
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 bill is passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 571, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 1622A, an act
9 to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in relation
10 to assessments resulting from a small claims
11 proceeding.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Secretary will read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 3.
15 This act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
17 the roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll.)
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 52.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 bill is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 578,
23 by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4117, an act to
3577
1 amend the General -
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it
3 aside.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
5 bill aside for the day.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 586, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 6151, an
8 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to
9 the officers of boards of education in union
10 free school districts.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
14 This act shall take effect on the first day of
15 July.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
17 the roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll.)
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 bill is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 610, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 474, an
3578
1 act -
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it
3 aside.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
5 bill aside.
6 Senator Skelos, that completes
7 the noncontroversial calendar.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
9 at this time, if we could take up the
10 controversial calendar.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the controversial calendar
13 beginning with Calendar Number 522.
14 THE SECRETARY: On page 27,
15 Calendar Number 522, by Senator Padavan, Senate
16 Print 668, an act to amend the General Municipal
17 Law, in relation to reporting information to the
18 United States Immigration and Naturalization
19 Service.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Padavan, an explanation of Calendar Number 522
23 has been asked for by Senator Paterson.
3579
1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you,
2 Mr. President.
3 This is a very simple bill terms
4 of its intent. It effectively would prohibit
5 local governments from preventing employees of
6 those governments who would seek to cooperate
7 with immigration and naturalization agencies
8 when they suspect an applicant of being engaged
9 in criminal activity.
10 That, in essence, is the bill,
11 Senator Paterson.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Paterson.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
15 Mr. President. If Senator Padavan would yield
16 for a question.
17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 yields.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, as
21 you know, in 1989, Mayor Koch issued Executive
22 Order 124 in which it was his belief at that
23 time that any law-abiding individual interacting
3580
1 with an agency of New York City government
2 should not be investigated based on status of
3 immigration, even though there should be
4 cooperation between the New York City Police
5 Department and anyone from any criminal justice
6 service with anyone who is breaking the law with
7 respect to immigration.
8 The reason that Mayor Koch and
9 then inevitably Mayor Dinkins held these
10 positions is simply that there could be a great
11 harm, for instance, if an individual wanted to
12 come forward as a witness and interact with the
13 police or perhaps if an individual needed
14 medical attention, that there would first be a
15 determination, rather, a determination as to
16 their immigration status.
17 In your legislation, you assert
18 the reasonable test to determine whether or not
19 a person is here legally, as a legal permanent
20 resident or as a citizen or whether or not as an
21 illegal alien.
22 The problem with that, as I see
23 it, is that the reasonable test is one that
3581
1 opens the door for what could be the bias of the
2 observer or perhaps any kind of discrepancy that
3 would lead one to feel that an individual is
4 reasonably not a citizen of the United States.
5 So my question to you is, how do
6 you establish a reasonable test for this
7 discerning of whether or not a person is a
8 citizen?
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well,
10 Senator, that would depend on the agency and the
11 degree of involvement of that individual in a
12 given responsibility.
13 Let me give you some real
14 examples. In the course of a hearing, one of
15 five that we held two years ago, we had an
16 opportunity to hear from the Welfare Inspector
17 General of the State of New York, who indicated
18 to us very directly and I would be glad to
19 provide the transcript of his testimony, that
20 there was widespread fraud by illegal aliens
21 within our social service system, fraud that
22 came about in a variety of ways, sometimes
23 forged documents, whatever the machinations
3582
1 were, they do exist, in his view, based upon a
2 number of years, many years of experience and
3 investigations he had conducted.
4 Now, after he presented a
5 considerable amount of input, he was followed by
6 a team of representatives from the New York City
7 Department of Human Resources, and I asked them
8 if they had heard the comments of the preceding
9 contributor and they said they had -- are you
10 with me?
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes.
12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Okay. They
13 said they had. My question to them was, "Well,
14 if someone is seeking to obtain social service
15 benefits, what process would you follow if you
16 felt that person was not entitled to them by
17 virtue of illegal status in terms of
18 immigration?"
19 The individuals went on to
20 explain what they would do and what they
21 wouldn't do, and so on, and pointed out
22 Executive Order 124.
23 My next question is, "Well, how
3583
1 many people in the last two years have you
2 identified, particularly in view of the
3 Inspector General's comments about widespread
4 fraud within the social services network by
5 illegal immigrants, particularly in New York
6 City," and the answer was none, zero.
7 It became very clear to me, and
8 I think it should be clear to anyone, that
9 Executive Order 124 has had such a chilling
10 effect on any intake line officer or line worker
11 within the social services agencies that they
12 make no referrals to anybody, at any time.
13 Senator, I would be happy to
14 give your counsel time to brief you, but I'm
15 trying to answer your question.
16 So, to continue, and I hope you
17 heard part of what I was saying because I know
18 you were distracted, what we have was an
19 executive order in the city of New York that was
20 initiated by Mayor Koch, and you accurately
21 described it, that precludes a person at the
22 social service intake level when they suspect
23 someone of not being entitled to social services
3584
1 because of illegal immigration status from doing
2 nothing. They are precluded from doing nothing,
3 anything.
4 Now, let me give you one other
5 example. One of the groups, one of the
6 individuals with a number of others from his
7 department from the New York City Police
8 Department, and as you recall, because I'm sure
9 you've read the executive order, it says that no
10 agency shall make a referral of an illegal
11 immigrant who has been a victim.
12 Now, it just so happened that
13 the day before, there had been a shootout in the
14 Bronx involving seven -- seven identified
15 illegal immigrants, a drug matter. Several were
16 killed, three or four were wounded. I asked the
17 inspector whether or not they had referred those
18 who had not been killed to INS. Obviously, they
19 were illegal immigrants based on police
20 department determination. His answer was they
21 were precluded from doing so by virtue of
22 Executive Order 124, and again I offer you his
23 testimony from the transcript.
3585
1 Another incident that occurred
2 that you may recall reading about was a young
3 man who was arrested for selling drugs, I think
4 it was in the Bronx, who was brought into a
5 court having been arrested, indicted. The
6 police officers and the District Attorney
7 apparently were aware of his illegal status but
8 they did nothing about that. They didn't even
9 share that information with the court, and that
10 young man was let out on $1,500 bail and within
11 a week, two weeks later, shot a police officer
12 and killed him, by the name of Sean McDonald.
13 And the response we get back
14 again is Executive Order 124 and Local Law 52,
15 which you may also be familiar with. Both of
16 these apply only in the city of New York. If
17 those very circumstances had occurred here in
18 Albany or any other part of the state, a
19 different course of action would have been
20 followed.
21 Now, the bill, as I said when I
22 described it, is very simple. We're saying that
23 no one who has a responsibility within any
3586
1 agency shall be precluded from making a referral
2 to INS when they believe the individual in
3 question has, one, committed a crime, or, number
4 two, is in violation of immigration laws. To
5 me, that's very prudent, it's reasonable,
6 because if they are in violation of immigration
7 laws, in this country illegally, and we have
8 over half a million in New York City alone, why
9 anyone would feel that a police officer of
10 whatever rank or social services line officer
11 who deals with applicants or any other agency
12 should be precluded from making that kind of
13 referral is beyond my ability to comprehend.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Padavan, excuse me just a minute.
16 Senator Mendez, why do you rise?
17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr.
18 President. I wonder if Senator Paterson would
19 be so kind to allow me to ask Senator Padavan a
20 couple of questions.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Paterson, do you yield the floor to Senator
23 Mendez?
3587
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Mr.
2 President.
3 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Mendez, Senator Paterson yields the floor to
6 you.
7 Senator Padavan, do you now
8 yield to a question from Senator Mendez?
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Two questions.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 yields.
13 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you.
14 Thank you. Much obliged.
15 Senator Padavan, I am sure that
16 you are aware that immigration is a function of
17 the federal government, is it not?
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I
19 understand your question and I want to answer it
20 fully. Obviously, deportation of illegal
21 immigrants, the determination of whether someone
22 should be given asylum, a whole host of
23 activities fall under INS. But, we have an
3588
1 obligation as well, and that obligation is to
2 ensure that those benefits we provide to the
3 citizens and legal immigrants of this state are
4 not abused by those who are in this country
5 illegally and who are involved in criminal
6 activity.
7 Therefore, we are not ethically,
8 morally or otherwise in a position to justify a
9 blind eye to such activity.
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator
11 Padavan -
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Padavan, do you yield to a second question from
14 Senator Mendez?
15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 yields.
18 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Mr.
19 President.
20 Senator Padavan, we are all very
21 much aware of the fact that you try very hard to
22 ensure that the taxpayers' money is used well,
23 and I think behind the motivation of this bill
3589
1 that we shouldn't, in my view, be discussing
2 here today, is that commitment that you have to
3 see that taxpayers dollars are well used. So,
4 you already agree with me that immigration is a
5 function of the federal government, you agree
6 with me on that.
7 My second question is, are you
8 aware that the law enforcement officials of the
9 city of New York are very, very happy about
10 Executive Order 124 because it allows them to
11 use some of those illegal aliens to provide them
12 with information to indict and, therefore,
13 deport a criminal that has been convicted and is
14 an illegal alien, so that this population there
15 has been providing a service to the law
16 enforcement authorities; are you aware of that?
17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I'm
18 not only aware of it but nothing in this bill
19 would preclude that. If NYPD, in the course of
20 an investigation, wishes to utilize an illegal
21 alien for an investigation, say, drug smuggling
22 as an example, there's nothing to stop them and,
23 as a matter of fact, it goes on, to develop
3590
1 a cooperative effort with INS, with the Treasury
2 Department and other agencies to pursue that
3 avenue of investigation.
4 Nothing in my bill precludes
5 them from doing it; but, keep in mind the input
6 I got from one inspector who wasn't happy about
7 the fact that he had three or four illegal
8 immigrants who had been wounded in a shootout in
9 your borough whom he could not refer to INS
10 because of Executive Order 124.
11 SENATOR MENDEZ: One swallow
12 makes a summer?
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator -
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President,
15 my last question.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Padavan, do you continue to yield?
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Are you on
19 swallows or summers or what?
20 SENATOR MENDEZ: No, no.
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Go ahead, go
22 ahead.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: He's
3591
1 swallowing hard, Senator, but he'll continue to
2 yield.
3 SENATOR MENDEZ: One swallow
4 doesn't make a summer.
5 Anyhow, my last question is, do
6 you realize that through state law, you will be
7 giving additional duties to employees of the
8 city of New York to -- there could be the situa
9 tion in which they could be even interrupted in
10 doing their own job because somebody comes in
11 trying to find information about an illegal
12 alien, so don't you think that that would be
13 very disruptive, as well?
14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Not at all,
15 Senator.
16 One of our biggest problems in
17 terms of social services, one we're wrestling
18 with with this budget, as we've done a number of
19 years recently, is a limitation of resources
20 that is available to the people of the state who
21 are desperately in need. The prudent use of
22 those funds, I think, is our responsibility.
23 Now, if someone comes into a
3592
1 social service office and makes application, the
2 line officer who reviews that application has an
3 obligation to determine whether or not that
4 person's entitled to it, that's what we want,
5 that's why we have finger imaging, that's why we
6 have a new computer system, so we can determine
7 if that person is on social services in another
8 state. That's a responsibility we have given
9 these individuals.
10 It's totally consistent for one
11 illegality to be viewed in the same context as
12 another. A person who is in this country
13 illegally is not entitled to social services, as
14 is a person who is receiving social services
15 from another jurisdiction.
16 SENATOR MENDEZ: I have to
17 thank you for being so wonderful.
18 On the bill, Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Mendez, on the bill.
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Mr. President,
22 on the bill.
23 Senator Padavan is really an
3593
1 extra good Senator; the bill is not.
2 Three chief executives of the
3 city of New York, in analyzing this situation,
4 they have concluded that Executive Order 124
5 helps the police department of the city of New
6 York, that they have concluded in their wisdom
7 that this is a very necessary thing to have.
8 So, I don't think that we should go over the
9 judgment already expressed by three previous
10 mayors of the city of New York and start
11 producing chaos in some of the neighborhoods
12 where we reside.
13 So, Mr. President, I'll be
14 voting in the negative. Thank you.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
16 recognizes Senator Paterson.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
18 Mr. President. If Senator Padavan would yield
19 for a question, and this time I get to respond
20 to it.
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Paterson, Senator Padavan yields. But it's
3594
1 pretty noisy in here. Can we -- the members, if
2 they have a conversation that they feel they
3 need to have with their neighbor, would they
4 take it out of the chamber, please?
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
6 Mr. President.
7 Senator, Senator Mendez was
8 referring to the mayor's position on this
9 particular bill. What is the position that
10 Mayor Giuliani has on the bill?
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Pardon me?
12 What is the position that Mayor Giuliani had?
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes.
14 SENATOR PADAVAN: He reissued
15 Executive Order 124. I think that speaks for
16 itself. If that had not been the case, then we
17 wouldn't need the bill today.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: No, Senator.
19 We've been having trouble communicating with the
20 mayor's office to find out exactly what feeling
21 is or whether or not they want to continue.
22 SENATOR PADAVAN: That
23 executive order is still in effect as determined
3595
1 by -- as directed by the mayor.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
3 Senator, I recognize the issue
4 that you're trying to address in terms of the
5 widespread fraud that may exist in the welfare
6 system. My objection is to how you're going to
7 address it in this bill. What would be the
8 system of verification in which it would be
9 determined whether or not a person is a legal
10 resident or a citizen?
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, when
12 someone applies for services -- I've used social
13 services as an example because it's one we're
14 all familiar with -- obviously, a certain amount
15 of documentation must be given. If that docu
16 mentation is reviewed -- it must be evaluated -
17 is viewed to be suspect in terms of its
18 credibility, then obviously that's one reason
19 the person would suspect that the individual is
20 not qualified to receive those services.
21 However, as varying as the
22 circumstances might be, what we are allowing,
23 which is the case everywhere but the city of New
3596
1 York, is for an intake officer in any agency to
2 use judgment in making a referral or, at a
3 minimum, to issue certain, or to ask certain
4 questions that should be answered. Under this
5 executive order, that is virtually prohibited.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson?
8 SENATOR PATERSON: So at a
9 point that a determination is made that the
10 individual in question may not be a citizen and
11 may not be a legal permanent resident or is in
12 this country for a valid reason, what is the
13 method of determining that from the Immigration
14 and Naturalization Service? In other words, how
15 would that work?
16 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'm not sure
17 I understand your question.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator,
19 question is, at a point that an employee of an
20 agency has determined that some individual to
21 which they are interfacing has an immigration
22 problem, what is the next step at that point?
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: The next step
3597
1 should be and is in most jurisdictions in this
2 state and in this country a referral to INS to
3 verify the person's legal status in terms of
4 either a lawful immigrant or citizen or someone
5 who has obtained asylum. There are about 18 or
6 more different categories of where a person
7 could be in this country legally and thereby be
8 entitled to services of one sort or the other.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: If the
10 Senator would continue to yield.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Padavan, do you continue to yield?
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 continues to yield.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: So then
17 there is a fiscal impact, I would imagine, if it
18 takes this amount of time to determine this
19 information, and it also would take a lot of
20 time, even though the situation that might cause
21 the relationship to exist between the individual
22 and the agency could be what might be termed an
23 emergency situation, is that not correct,
3598
1 Senator?
2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, I'm
3 not quite sure I understand your question. You
4 say there's a fiscal impact? Did you say is
5 there a fiscal impact?
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Yes.
7 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, there is
8 a great deal of fiscal impact. If we accept the
9 judgment and the input from the Welfare
10 Inspector General, the fiscal impact, quote,
11 again, widespread fraud in our social services
12 service system, must cause us a great deal of
13 money. In terms of fiscal impact, it must be
14 considerable. Now, I'm not in a position to
15 quantify that, but I accept his judgment. When
16 he says considerable, extensive, widespread,
17 then that means something to me.
18 Now, the minimal effort that
19 would have to be expended by a social service
20 official in verifying legal status, in those
21 instances where it is expected not to be in
22 existence would be more than offset by the
23 savings from keeping such individuals out of our
3599
1 network.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Paterson.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
5 If the Senator would continue to yield.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
7 Senator, do you continue to yield?
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 continues to yield.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I
12 am not disputing, I am relying on the fact that
13 you held five hearings and you have determined
14 that officials from different agencies have
15 reported, based on research, that there is a
16 significant fiscal impact to the City and to the
17 state that is being caused by illegal aliens.
18 That's not the issue I'm asking you about. I'm
19 asking you about the method in which you would
20 like to go about trying to diminish that number
21 and trying to make sure these individuals are -
22 SENATOR PADAVAN: Let me try
23 and answer this way. The same method that's
3600
1 followed today in every county outside the city
2 of New York -- Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and
3 on and here in Albany -- the same methodology
4 they use. I can't be specific with you because
5 it depends on the agency, depends on the
6 circumstances; but the simple fact that this
7 state encourages, as a matter of state policy,
8 cooperation with INS and that has been precluded
9 in the city of New York by virtue of an
10 executive order speaks for itself.
11 Now, if you have questions as to
12 how the social services offices in Nassau County
13 or here in Albany go about dealing with this
14 issue, I suggest you ask them; but what I do
15 know is that they deal with it and I think New
16 York City should be dealing with it.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Paterson.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
20 President, if Senator Padavan would continue to
21 yield.
22 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr.
23 President, I would yield to one more question.
3601
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 yields to one more question, Senator Paterson.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, let
4 me, since I wouldn't know which of the myriad
5 questions would be the one you would want to
6 answer, let me suggest to you a way in which I
7 think the goal that you're trying to accomplish
8 could be achieved but would have a different
9 effect on the citizenry, the people who are not
10 illegal aliens in the City.
11 What if we address this issue as
12 a public policy matter and we addressed it in a
13 fashion in which we had the Immigration and
14 Naturalization Service interface with these
15 particular agencies and actually come into the
16 agencies for purposes of investigating so that
17 rather than having people who are relying on a
18 test that you call reasonable but are actually
19 not trained in the field are, in a sense, being
20 turned into immigration officers when that's not
21 what they came to these agencies to do, they're
22 police officers, they are case workers for
23 social services, they are health care workers.
3602
1 Why don't we just bring the Immigration and
2 Naturalization Service in and try and address
3 the problem by having a public policy
4 interfacing of the actual agencies than to have
5 people who live in the city of New York, who pay
6 taxes, who are citizens and are legal permanent
7 residents or are in some way living in the City
8 but are not illegal aliens subjected to what may
9 be a standard that has been demonstrated by
10 other research, some by the Governor of this
11 state, that shows that in these types of
12 situations where subjective determinations are
13 made that we are actually having bias creeping
14 into the actual issue. If a person has an
15 accent, if a person looks as though they were
16 born on foreign soil, I don't know that anyone
17 should be jumping to the conclusion that they
18 are an illegal alien.
19 So why don't we bring the people
20 who know better, why aren't we deferring to the
21 professionals in this field rather than getting
22 everybody who works for the city of New York and
23 turning them into an immigration officer.
3603
1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, your
2 question has a number of premises to it that I
3 find -
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, I only
5 had one question, so I had to put a lot of
6 premises in it to get an answer.
7 SENATOR PADAVAN: It has a number
8 of -- there is a certain texture to it that
9 makes it somewhat difficult to answer.
10 In the first place, we are not
11 turning every City official into an Immigration
12 and Naturalization officer, that is not our
13 intent, nor could it be. What we're saying,
14 very directly and I'm repeating myself, I know,
15 but apparently my earlier responses didn't get
16 through, what we're saying is that an illegality
17 is an illegality. If someone is seeking
18 services and is guilty of having committed a
19 crime, whether that crime is having come into
20 our city or state, our country, illegally, or
21 any other crime, we should not ignore it.
22 Now, in regard to your specific
23 question, in our dialogue with the regional
3604
1 director of the Immigration and Naturalization
2 Services covering the New York area, there was
3 every indication on his part of a willingness to
4 cooperate with all City agencies -- Corrections,
5 Social Services, NYPD, prosecutors -- and
6 indeed, in many instances that does occur.
7 Now, the placement, however, of
8 an INS individual in every City office where
9 these problems might occur would be an
10 impractical matter, but the offer and the desire
11 for cooperation already exists as they,
12 themselves, have stated; but it's a two-way
13 street. If there is going to be cooperation,
14 then City agencies or at least those individuals
15 within those agencies that have a particular
16 responsibility are going to have to seek that
17 cooperation. INS cannot be in a position of
18 knowing what's going on in various agencies
19 throughout the city of New York, and several
20 examples I gave you.
21 So to answer your question, I
22 think it would be impractical for us to expect
23 INS to place an individual at every social
3605
1 services office in this state; but certainly
2 they're there and willing and able and anxious
3 to cooperate in every way possible.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
5 Senator Padavan.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
9 President, on the bill.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Sir.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
12 Padavan illustrated to us what he considers,
13 through a number of pieces of legislation that
14 he's offered, to be a very serious problem. We
15 tried to offer him an alternative and he feels
16 that the alternative isn't practical; in fact,
17 he interprets the alternative to mean that we
18 should place employees of the Immigration and
19 Naturalization Service in the offices of each
20 agency. This is not what we're proposing and,
21 as a matter of fact, by Senator Padavan's own
22 words, he demonstrates that we wouldn't even
23 really be doing that with the employees right
3606
1 now when he amplified on his remarks to say that
2 he didn't want to turn every employee of the
3 city of New York into an Immigration and
4 Naturalization officer.
5 What we're saying is that there
6 has to be a way that the heads of the agencies
7 can interact without having personnel who do not
8 specialize in this field making a review that
9 could jeopardize citizens and legal permanent
10 residents who happen to hail from a foreign soil
11 or happen to have an accent or some affectation
12 that would be similar but not indicative that
13 they are an illegal alien and that kind of
14 situation happens to people, it causes people
15 who have information not to come forward, it
16 causes individuals who would be witnesses to a
17 crime and help our police department, to be
18 unwilling to. It is a serious situation in the
19 health care industry when people who need
20 service don't require it, who, when their family
21 members who may be citizens need service, they
22 don't come forward because they're afraid that
23 they are going to be investigated.
3607
1 Senator Padavan continues to
2 recite the bill of particulars of the problems
3 that are caused by illegal aliens and that is
4 certainly something that needs to be addressed.
5 However, when it comes to the
6 actual application of how to change the problem,
7 he only sees this piece of legislation as the
8 answer, he only sees getting a great number of
9 people who do not specialize in this field to
10 make a subjective determination under a fairness
11 doctrine tha isn't even described. What would
12 the fairness be? It would be that certain
13 documentation doesn't seem to be in compliance?
14 Well, that wouldn't change the fact that there
15 are people who have fraudulent documents.
16 There's got to be some definition of how the
17 interpretation is being made, and I don't think
18 that Senator Padavan's explanation of what it
19 would be is complete.
20 And so on the bill, we recommend
21 that the bill not pass the house, primarily
22 because it seems to me, Mr. President, that
23 there are other solutions that could be sought
3608
1 to address something that Senator Padavan has
2 illustrated is a serious problem, but there are
3 a number of ways in which our agencies can
4 interact without changing the spirit of what
5 some of our agencies' mission is.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
7 recognizes Senator Espada.
8 SENATOR ESPADA: Thank you, Mr.
9 President. It was Congresswoman, the late and
10 great former Congresswoman, Barbara Jordan,
11 who said that if California was foolish enough
12 to pass resolution or Proposition 187, it would
13 set its own house on fire. And again, through a
14 series of bills here, Senator Padavan seeks to
15 turn New York City and New York State on fire.
16 I won't look into the regulatory
17 aspects of it, the impracticalities of it, the
18 fiscal irresponsibility of it, but just to ask a
19 couple of questions on the human side of the
20 issue, if you permit me, Senator Padavan.
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, your
22 characterization at the outset I find offensive,
23 to say the least. However, I'll yield to one
3609
1 question.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 yields for one question, Senator Espada
4 SENATOR ESPADA: Well, your
5 limiting debate on this is offensive to me.
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'll answer
7 one question.
8 SENATOR ESPADA: And that's
9 your prerogative to insult this body in that
10 fashion by limiting debate on such a matter, but
11 we all take personal, political and emotional
12 pride in the bills that we sponsor; we should
13 also have the backbone to defend them on the
14 floor as long as it takes to do that. Some of
15 us have a limitation on that.
16 Now, you would praise the bill
17 for what it would do to the taxpayers; I ask you
18 one simple question about what it would do to a
19 child who has the misfortune of having an
20 illegal parent who has to go to the hospital for
21 immunization or for another emergent matter. I
22 would ask you to explain and to justify what it
23 would do to someone that would feel harassed
3610
1 under this law because, in fact, Executive Order
2 124 was not set up to protect illegal immigrants
3 but, in fact, was set up to protect American
4 citizens and permanent residents.
5 Violation of civil rights has
6 been a natural outcome of some of these
7 measures, so in all of these very human ways,
8 from children that would not be able to be
9 vaccinated, from people that would be harassed
10 and their civil rights violated, why don't we
11 deal as a responsible legislature with some of
12 those outcomes and not make believe they don't
13 exist because, in fact, they do exist. They are
14 natural outcomes of laws and bills like the ones
15 that you have initiated and debated on this
16 floor, without limitation, I would recall.
17 SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr.
18 President, I'm not sure what the question was.
19 SENATOR ESPADA: The question
20 is, if your bill passed, children would be
21 denied the public health benefits of being
22 immunized because if I'm an illegal parent or if
23 I'm a legal permanent resident or if I look the
3611
1 way I look, I don't want to get harassed I don't
2 want to be interviewed by the social service
3 agent, I want my child to get care; and if I'm
4 aware of that, I may decide not to go to the
5 public health institution. I may be sitting at
6 my desk and somebody says, "Today you look like
7 an illegal Mexican," and so I would have to
8 respond by showing papers and having to deal
9 with that reality.
10 The public servants and the
11 hospitals and social service agencies don't want
12 the job that you want to assign to them. In
13 fact, in California, they have a pledge of
14 resistance against these kinds of initiatives
15 because it's against and runs contrary to their
16 professional ethics.
17 So the question I ask you is one
18 that's based on real people's feelings and on
19 the people that have to execute this kind of a
20 law is how do you deal with me as a person that
21 doesn't want to be interviewed at the hospital?
22 I'm a Puerto Rican, I'm an American citizen
23 before maybe you or some of your family members
3612
1 were, and now I have to go in there and I have
2 to be treated like a second class citizen to
3 prove my citizenship. I decide to stay home and
4 Johnny two-year old, three-year old does not get
5 immunized.
6 On and on it goes with this kind
7 of trilogy or series of bills that you've
8 introduced. I'm saying focus in on the
9 outcomes as any responsible legislator should.
10 Deal with some of that for us, please.
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well,
12 Senator, let me answer your question directly.
13 As someone yourself, I know you are involved in
14 public health, you know that a person arrives at
15 a clinic or a hospital, irrespective, is
16 interviewed when they arrive there, if for no
17 other reason to get their name and address.
18 They are asked certain basic questions: "Do you
19 have insurance," is usually the first one. So,
20 the question of being interviewed is not unique
21 to this particular subject area, it's standard
22 procedure, no matter who you have.
23 Now, in regard to an illegal
3613
1 alien, the child that you mentioned who comes to
2 a city hospital seeking care and treatment,
3 you're well aware of the fact that under federal
4 law, such treatment must be provided,
5 irrespective of the immigration status. Whether
6 you're here illegally or otherwise, such health
7 care cannot be denied. That's why in the state
8 of New York we have one of the largest bad debt
9 and charity pool allocations of any state on a
10 per capita basis in the nation because they all
11 fall in that category, they don't have
12 insurance, they don't qualify for Medicaid,
13 because they're there and they are cared for.
14 So, therefore, the scenario that
15 you outlined is simply not applicable, they
16 would be entitled to and would receive, as is
17 the case today, health care.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Espada.
20 SENATOR ESPADA: If I may, on
21 the bill.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Espada, on the bill.
3614
1 SENATOR ESPADA: Clearly, we
2 have attempted to have a de facto system of
3 immigration verification, detection. We make -
4 every responsible professional out there,
5 whether you're a teacher, you're in SUNY, you're
6 in CUNY, you're in a public hospital facility,
7 we make them an INS agent, if we go the full
8 Padavan route.
9 His reality on this issue could
10 never be my reality on this issue, it is not the
11 reality of the mayor of the city of New York, it
12 is not the reality, as far as I know, of the
13 Governor of the state of New York, all of whom
14 refused to embark and campaign on this
15 immigration bashing kind of scenario that we
16 find ourselves all too often involved in in
17 these chambers.
18 So, for all of those reasons,
19 never even considering the fact that the great
20 Constitution of this state would prohibit such a
21 law from actually going into practice, I ask my
22 colleagues to please vote this down. Thank you
23 so much.
3615
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
2 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
3 (There was no response)
4 Hearing none, the Secretary will
5 read the last section.
6 Senator Paterson.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
8 President, we'd like a slow roll call on this
9 bill.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hang
11 on. Let me get to that stage.
12 The Secretary will call the
13 roll.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the
19 roll.)
20 Senator Paterson, you're asking
21 a slow roll. If the five members in the chamber
22 who are requesting that would stand, please.
23 One, two, three, four -- there are five.
3616
1 The Secretary will call the roll
2 slowly.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
4 SENATOR ABATE: No.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi.
6 SENATOR ALESI: Yes.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Babbush.
9 (There was no response.)
10 Senator Bruno.
11 (Affirmative indication.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
13 (Negative indication.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook.
15 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 DeFrancisco.
18 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator
20 DiCarlo.
21 (There was no response.)
22 Senator Dollinger.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes.
3617
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
2 SENATOR ESPADA: No.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
4 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Gonzalez.
8 SENATOR GONZALEZ: No.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator
10 Goodman.
11 (There was no response.)
12 Senator Hannon.
13 (There was no response.)
14 Senator Hoblock.
15 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Hoffmann.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Holland.
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator
22 Johnson.
23 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
3618
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Kruger.
3 SENATOR KRUGER: No.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Aye.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Lachman.
8 SENATOR LACHMAN: No.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
10 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
12 (There was no response.)
13 Senator LaValle.
14 SENATOR LaVALLE: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Leibell.
17 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator
19 Leichter.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: No.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
22 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
3619
1 Libous.
2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator
4 Maltese.
5 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Marcellino.
8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
10 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator
12 Markowitz.
13 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz.
15
16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
18 SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator
20 Montgomery.
21 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
23 SENATOR NANULA: No.
3620
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator
2 Nozzolio.
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Onorato.
6 SENATOR ONORATO: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Oppenheimer.
9 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Yes.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator
11 Padavan.
12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Paterson.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
17 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
19 SENATOR RATH: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
21 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator
23 Santiago.
3621
1 (There was no response.)
2 Senator Seabrook.
3 SENATOR SEABROOK: No.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears.
5 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Skelos.
9 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
11 SENATOR SMITH: No.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
13 (There was no response.)
14 Senator Stachowski.
15 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Stafford.
18 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator
20 Stavisky.
21 (There was no response.)
22 Senator Trunzo.
23 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
3622
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
2 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator
4 Velella.
5 (There was no response.)
6 Senator Volker.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Waldon.
9 SENATOR WALDON: No.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright.
11 (There was no response.)
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
13 the absentees.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator
15 Babbush.
16 (There was no response.)
17 Senator DiCarlo.
18 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
20 (Affirmative indication.)
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold in
22 the affirmative.
23 Senator Goodman.
3623
1 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon.
3 SENATOR HANNON: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Hoffmann.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Larkin.
8 (There was no response.)
9 Senator Santiago.
10 (There was no response.)
11 Senator Seward.
12 SENATOR SEWARD: Yes.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
14 (There was no response.)
15 Senator Stavisky.
16 SENATOR STAVISKY: No.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Wright.
20 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
22 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
3624
1 Announce the results.
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40, nays
3 16.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 bill is passed.
6 Secretary will continue to call
7 the controversial calendar.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 610, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 474, an
10 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the
11 possession of noxious materials by members of
12 auxiliary police forces.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Holland, an explanation of Calendar Number 610
15 has been asked for by the Acting Minority
16 Leader, Senator Paterson.
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Mr.
18 President. We debated this bill for a number
19 of years, it may go back into the 1970s, but the
20 bill would allow auxiliary police, upon local
21 authorization and appropriate instructions, to
22 possess mace for use as a defensive weapon only
23 after authorization of the police commissioner
3625
1 or chief executive officer of a county, city,
2 town or village.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Paterson.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
6 Mr. President. If Senator Holland would yield
7 for a question.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Holland, do you yield?
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Senator yields.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
14 Holland, we've had a lot of peace officers bills
15 that have come through the chamber that the
16 Senate has passed on; and obviously the county
17 or the entity would indemnify the police officer
18 for any executive action, but there is no
19 definition that I can find of an auxiliary
20 police officer in the statute and, therefore,
21 don't you think that we need to pass a law to
22 delineate what the roll of the auxiliary police
23 officer is before we could pass this
3626
1 legislation?
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: You asked
3 that question last year, Senator, and there are
4 a number of sections in law, one is section (ii)
5 of Section 22 and 23 of the New York State
6 Defense Emergency Act, and that gives three
7 different definitions of what an auxiliary
8 police officer does. Also, in the unconsoli
9 dated laws, section 9185 gives a definition of
10 what an auxiliary police officer does. I don't
11 know what else you're looking for.
12 I think there's also -- one last
13 thing, Senator. I think the city of New York
14 also has a definition which I had FAXed me but I
15 can hardly read.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Paterson.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: I'm glad to
19 see that the followup is as good as it is,
20 Senator Holland and Senator Volker. Most of
21 those situations you describe, actually, Senator
22 Holland, relate more to emergencies, so this is
23 why I raise the issue because if we had a
3627
1 situation, if I would present the scenario where
2 deadly force was used by an auxiliary police
3 officer in a situation where it was not
4 authorized and we then had some lawsuit that was
5 brought by the victim of this type of action,
6 would there not be a problem that would exist
7 based on the liability of the county or the city
8 where the action took place because of the fact
9 that it's not exactly clear what the
10 relationship is between the entity and the
11 auxiliary police officer.
12 SENATOR HOLLAND: Well, there
13 could be a suit, Senator, if that's your point,
14 that's why the bill says it must be authorized
15 by the municipality. If it was authorized, then
16 they would be -- would pick up the suit cost, is
17 my understanding.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Paterson.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you.
21 Mr. President, on the bill. I
22 don't know what we would do if the force was not
23 authorized, in other words, if it was out of the
3628
1 scope of what the county proscribes; but
2 actually, other than that, Senator Holland has
3 answered the questions well and Senator Volker
4 is just doing a great job, that's all I can tell
5 you.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Secretary will read the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
11 the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
14 the results when tabulated.
15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded
16 in the negative on Calendar 4774 are Senators
17 Abate, Connor, Dollinger, Espada, Goodman,
18 Kruger, Markowitz, Mendez, Nanula, Oppenheimer,
19 Seabrook, Smith, also Senator Montgomery. Ayes
20 46, nays 13 -- also Senator Lachman. Ayes 45,
21 nays 14.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 bill is passed.
3629
1 Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
3 is there any housekeeping at the desk?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I have
5 just one item, if we can return to motions and
6 resolutions, Senator Skelos.
7 The Chair would recognize
8 Senator Wright.
9 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr.
10 President.
11 Initially I would request
12 unanimous consent to be recorded in the
13 negative on Calendar Number 559, Senate 381.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
15 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Wright
16 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar
17 Number 559.
18 Senator Wright.
19 SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr.
20 President.
21 I move the following bills, on
22 behalf of Senator Rath, be discharged from their
23 respective committees and be recommitted with
3630
1 instructions to strike the enacting clause:
2 Senate 6613.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
4 objection, the enacting clause is stricken, the
5 bill is recommitted.
6 Senator Skelos.
7 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
8 there being no further business, I move we
9 adjourn until Tuesday, April 23rd, 1996 at 3:00
10 p.m. sharp.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
12 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until
13 tomorrow, Tuesday, April 23rd, at 3:00 p.m.
14 sharp.
15 (Whereupon, at 4:20 p.m., the
16 Senate adjourned.)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23