Regular Session - April 23, 1996
3631
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 April 23, 1996
10 3:00 p.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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3632
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
3 come to order. Would everyone please rise and
4 join with me in the Pledge of Allegiance.
5 (The assemblage repeated the
6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
7 The invocation today will be
8 given by Reverend Father Khatchig Megerdichian,
9 pastor of the Holy Cross Armenian Apostolic
10 Church.
11 Reverend Khatchig Megerdichian.
12 REVEREND KHATCHIG MEGERDICHIAN:
13 Dear God, we thank You for the gift of life and
14 for granting us the honor and the privilege of
15 living in this great land of freedom and
16 opportunity, where each and every one of us has
17 the freedom to worship in the faith of their
18 ancestors.
19 We thankfully dedicate our lives
20 to Your glory, to the service of our fellow man,
21 to freedom, justice, righteousness and the
22 democratic way of life. We humbly pray that You
23 preserve and protect this great nation, the
3633
1 United States of America and all of its federal,
2 state and municipal agencies. We humbly pray
3 that Your divine wisdom illuminate the hearts
4 and souls and minds of our President and cabinet
5 and Congress and especially our Governor, state
6 Senate and Assembly.
7 As we gather here today, we
8 remember and honor and pay tribute to the
9 blessed memory of over one and a half million
10 innocent Armenian men, women and children who
11 became victims of the first genocide of the 20th
12 Century at the hands of the Ottoman Turks
13 between 1915 and 1923. We pray that the
14 grievous wrongs of brutal massacre, mass
15 deportation and starvation committed against the
16 Armenian people be known to the world and set
17 right so that the sacred blood of our martyrs
18 will not have been shed in vain.
19 Dear God, may the trials and
20 tribulations which the Armenian people
21 experience throughout their long illustrious
22 history not be experienced by any nation of the
23 world again.
3634
1 And now dear God we pray, grant
2 us faith, hope and love. Make us instruments of
3 Your peace. Teach us to glorify Thy all holy
4 name, humbly serve our fellow man and
5 unceasingly strive for freedom and justice all
6 the days of our lives. Amen.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Amen. Thank you,
8 Father.
9 The reading of the Journal,
10 please.
11 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
12 Monday, April 22nd. The Senate met pursuant to
13 adjournment. The prayer by the Reverend Wayne
14 Jagow, Concordia Lutheran Church, Lockport. The
15 Journal of Sunday, April 21, was read and
16 approved. On motion, the Senate adjourned.
17 THE PRESIDENT: Without
18 objection, the Journal stands approved as read.
19 Presentation of petitions.
20 Messages from the Assembly.
21 Messages from the Governor.
22 Reports of standing committees.
23 Reports of select committees.
3635
1 Communications and reports from
2 state officers.
3 Motions and resolutions.
4 Senator Marcellino.
5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
6 President, I believe there are some motions at
7 the desk. May we have them now, please.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Tully.
9 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Madam
10 President.
11 I wish to call up my bill, Print
12 Number 4578, recalled from the Assembly which is
13 now at the desk.
14 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
15 will read.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 306, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 4578, an act
18 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
19 relation to prohibiting the issuance of a
20 driver's license.
21 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Madam
22 President. I now move to reconsider the vote by
23 which this bill was passed.
3636
1 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll on
2 reconsideration, please.
3 (The Secretary called the roll on
4 reconsideration.)
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 31.
6 SENATOR TULLY: Madam President,
7 I now offer the following amendments.
8 THE PRESIDENT: The amendments
9 are received.
10 Senator Maziarz.
11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you,
12 Madam President.
13 I move that the following bills
14 be discharged from their respective committees
15 and be recommitted with instructions to strike
16 the enacting clause: 2912-A, 6384 and 6666.
17 THE PRESIDENT: The enacting
18 clauses will be struck.
19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Also, Madam
20 President, on page number 36, I offer the
21 following amendments to Calendar Number 685,
22 S.6876, and ask that said bill retain its place
23 on the Third Reading Calendar.
3637
1 THE PRESIDENT: The amendments
2 are received.
3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you,
4 Madam President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
6 Marcellino.
7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
8 President, are there any substitutions to be
9 made?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
11 Maltese.
12 SENATOR MALTESE: Madam
13 President, with reference to Calendar Number
14 694, I would like to place a sponsor's star.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
16 is starred at the sponsor's request.
17 Senator Marcellino.
18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
19 President, at this time may we please adopt the
20 Resolution Calendar with the exception of
21 Resolutions 3066, 3013 and 3056.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: All those
23 in favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar
3638
1 signify by saying aye.
2 (Response of "Aye".)
3 Opposed, nay.
4 (There was no response.)
5 The Resolution Calendar is
6 approved.
7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
8 President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
10 Marcellino.
11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: May we
12 please have Resolution 3066, which is mine, read
13 in its entirety and move for its immediate
14 adoption.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
16 Secretary will read.
17 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
18 Marcellino, Legislative Resolution 3066,
19 expressing sincerest sorrow upon the occasion of
20 the death of Robert M. Banister, first
21 vice-president of the New York State
22 Conservation Council and former chairman of the
23 Conservation Fund Advisory Council.
3639
1 WHEREAS, it is the sense of this
2 legislative body that those who give positive
3 definition to the profile and disposition of the
4 ecology of the state of New York profoundly
5 strengthen our shared commitment to the exercise
6 of freedom; and
7 WHEREAS, attendant to such
8 concern and fully in accord with its long
9 standing traditions, it is the intent of this
10 legislative body to express sincerest sorrow
11 upon the occasion of the death of Robert M.
12 Banister, first vice-president of the New York
13 State Conservation Council and former chairman
14 of the Conservation Fund Advisory Council.
15 Robert M. Banister is survived by
16 his wife of 46 years, Betty Banister, and their
17 four children.
18 Robert M. Banister was born in
19 1930. He was a life-long sportsman and
20 conservationist, being a strong advocate of
21 sportmen's interests throughout New York State.
22 He represented sportsmen on a number of boards
23 and commissions, and he was the first vice
3640
1 president of the New York State Conservation
2 Council and served as chairman of the
3 Conservation Fund Advisory Council for five
4 years.
5 Dedicating his life to the issues
6 in which he so strongly believed, he worked
7 closely with the New York State Legislature on
8 various legislative incentives that have
9 resulted in better hunting and fishing in New
10 York State. Most recently, he has been working
11 closely with the representatives from the 5th
12 Senatorial District in coming up with legisla
13 tion authorizing the hunting of game on Sundays
14 during each such season in the Southern Tier,
15 central and western regions of New York State;
16 and
17 WHEREAS, in 1974, Robert M.
18 Banister was elected as director of the Genesee
19 Conservation League and served as conservation
20 vice-president for 14 years. In 1976, he was
21 elected as Monroe County Councilman to the New
22 York State Conservation Council, a position he
23 held for ten years; and
3641
1 WHEREAS, in 1979, Robert M.
2 Banister was elected to the Genesee Conservation
3 Foundation. In 1980, he was appointed by the
4 New York State Conservation Council as advisor
5 to the New York State Fish and Wildlife
6 Management Act Board and served for six years.
7 In early 1980, Robert M. Banister
8 was elected Monroe County Sportsman of the Year
9 by the Monroe County Conservation Council. In
10 1983, he was elected director-at-large to the
11 New York State Conservation Council and in 1986,
12 he was elected vice-president to the Council.
13 The next year he was appointed to the Conserva
14 tion Fund Advisory Council as a representative
15 for Region 8. Upon appointment by the Governor,
16 he served on the Great Lakes Basin Advisory
17 Council for five years. In 1991, he was elected
18 chairman of the Conservation Fund Advisory
19 Council.
20 Robert M. Banister was one of the
21 co-originators of the Sportsmen's March on
22 Albany.
23 Robert M. Banister did so
3642
1 magnanimously labor for the positive and
2 salutary definition of the ecology of the state
3 of New York; and
4 WHEREAS, Robert M. Banister often
5 told an anecdote illustrating the difference
6 between environmentalists and conservationists,
7 for whom he so strongly advocated. The story
8 goes that an environmentalist and a conserva
9 tionist were in a room with an apple sitting on
10 the mantel of the fireplace. The environ
11 mentalist picked up the apple, polished it to a
12 high luster and placed it on the mantel for
13 everyone to admire. The conservationist picked
14 up the apple, ate it and then planted the seeds;
15 and
16 WHEREAS, through his long and
17 sustained commitment to the positive and
18 salutary definition of the natural heritage of
19 this Empire State, Robert M. Banister did so
20 unselfishly advance that spirit of united
21 purpose and shared concern which is the
22 unalterable manifestation of our American
23 experience; now, therefore, be it
3643
1 RESOLVED, that this legislative
2 body pause in its deliberations and express
3 sincerest sorrow upon the occasion of the death
4 of Robert M. Banister, first vice-president of
5 the New York State Conservation Council and
6 former chairman of the Conservation Fund
7 Advisory Council, fully confident that such
8 procedure mirrors our shared commitment to
9 preserve, to enhance and to yet effect that
10 patrimony of freedom which is our American
11 heritage; and be it further
12 RESOLVED, that copies of this
13 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted
14 to Mrs. Robert M. Banister and family and to
15 John Long, chairman of the New York State
16 Conservation Fund Advisory Council.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senators
18 wishing to speak on the resolution?
19 Senator Marcellino.
20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
21 Madam President.
22 Madam President, I rise to speak
23 on this particular resolution, and I would like
3644
1 to offer it in a traditional way to every member
2 -- to open it up for co-sponsorship to every
3 member in the chamber who, unless they tell the
4 desk otherwise, will be left out.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
6 members will co-sponsor unless the desk is
7 notified.
8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'd like to
9 say a few words today about Mr. Robert Banister
10 who, until just two weeks ago, was the chairman
11 of the New York State Conservation Advisory
12 Board and who passed away prematurely on Sunday,
13 April 14th, 1996.
14 Bob was one of those people who
15 was larger than life, literally larger than
16 life. He was a big man, and he had a heart as
17 big as the outdoors he loved so much. Now,
18 unfortunately, Bob and I only met recently
19 because of my assuming the chair of the
20 Environmental Conservation Committee, but Bob
21 made his presence felt immediately upon my being
22 named the new chair contact. He made an offer
23 to sit down and give me the benefit of his
3645
1 advice and counsel, and I welcomed that. It was
2 a tremendous asset.
3 He worked well with my staff and
4 he worked constructively. He was a true
5 environmentalist because as a conservationist,
6 no one enjoys the environment more; no one
7 respects it more and no one wants to see it
8 preserved more and, when Bob fought for an
9 issue, he fought for an issue. You never found
10 Bob sitting on a fence. That was not his
11 style. He was clear. He was concise. Whether
12 you agreed with him or not, it was always done
13 in a professional and friendly way, and he
14 always had the time for a good joke and a good
15 laugh.
16 So my relationship with Bob was a
17 good one and a positive one, as many others in
18 this chamber will tell you as well. He was a
19 fine man. He was one of those people that the
20 expression he will never be -- he will not
21 easily be replaced -- well, Bob is one of those
22 individuals who frankly will never be replaced.
23 Thank you.
3646
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Are there
2 any other Senators wishing to speak?
3 (There was no response.)
4 The question is on the resolu
5 tion. All in favor signify by saying aye.
6 (Response of "Aye".)
7 Opposed, nay.
8 (There was no response.)
9 The resolution is adopted.
10 Senator Marcellino.
11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
12 President, may we have Resolution 3056 by
13 Senator Maltese read in its entirety and
14 adopted, please.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
16 Secretary will read.
17 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
18 Maltese, Legislative Resolution 3056,
19 memorializing Governor George E. Pataki to
20 proclaim April 24th, 1996 as "Armenian Martyrs'
21 Day" in New York State;
22 WHEREAS, it is the sense of this
23 assembled body to emphatically urge Governor
3647
1 George E. Pataki to proclaim April 24, 1996
2 "Armenian Martyrs' Day" in New York State; and
3 WHEREAS, this proclamation arises
4 from a sense of human decency and respect for
5 the Armenian people and their history.
6 Towards the end of the 19th
7 Century, the Turkish Government began to
8 systematically persecute their citizens of
9 Armenian heritage.
10 From 1894 to 1896, Sultan
11 Abdu-Hamid II ordered the massacre of 300,000
12 Armenians living within the boundaries of the
13 Turkish Empire; and
14 WHEREAS, in 1909, 30,000 more
15 Armenian men, women and children were
16 senselessly slaughtered by Turkish armies in the
17 mountain village of Cilicia.
18 Nonetheless, by the onset of
19 World War I, there still remained 2,500,000
20 Armenians who made their homes within the
21 Ottoman Empire. Of those, over 250,000 were
22 faithful soldiers who loyally fought within the
23 ranks of its armies in an effort to defend their
3648
1 homeland.
2 On April 24, 1915, hundreds of
3 Armenian religious, political and intellectual
4 leaders were rounded up, exiled and eventually
5 murdered in secret death camps hidden in the
6 depths of the mountainsides.
7 Over the course of the next six
8 months, the Armenian soldiers on active duty in
9 the Army were disarmed and placed in forced
10 labor battalions, whereupon many either starved
11 or were summarily executed behind the fences of
12 these camps.
13 Deprived of their leaders and the
14 young men who could defend these helpless
15 communities, the remaining Armenians became the
16 easy target for the governmental raids and found
17 themselves at the mercy of cruel and often
18 barbaric persecutors; and
19 WHEREAS, a total of 1,500,000
20 Armenian men, women and children were massacred;
21 500,000 more were exiled and about 500,000 were
22 able to escape the reign of terror and establish
23 themselves in new and wholly foreign lands. As
3649
1 a result, today there are only 100,000 people of
2 Armenian heritage left residing within the
3 boundaries of modern Turkey.
4 The devastation which resulted
5 from this "ethnic cleansing" practiced by the
6 rulers of the Ottoman Empire occurred in a
7 similar ratio to that caused by the Jewish
8 Holocaust in Germany and Eastern Europe, yet
9 most of the world's peoples do not realize the
10 gravity of the genocide perpetrated during this
11 period.
12 The Armenian people have been
13 denied the right of self-determination of
14 ancestral lands. They have received no form of
15 reparations for their tragic losses; and
16 WHEREAS, on April 24, 1996, a
17 memorial ceremony will be held in New York City
18 Hall, City Council Chamber to commemorate the
19 81st Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide; and
20 WHEREAS, members of the Armenian
21 community will gather to honor the memory of the
22 victims of this genocide and to emphasize that
23 crimes against humanity must be condemned and
3650
1 never be allowed; now, therefore, be it
2 RESOLVED, that this legislative
3 body pause in its deliberations to urge Governor
4 George E. Pataki to proclaim April 24, 1996
5 "Armenian Martyrs' Day" in New York State; and
6 be it further
7 RESOLVED, that this resolution is
8 intended to counter the tide of revisionist
9 history that purports that Armenian genocide
10 never took place; and be it further
11 RESOLVED, that copies of this
12 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted
13 to the Armenian National Committee, to Rouben
14 Shugarian, Armenian Ambassador to the United
15 States and to Alexander Arzoumanian, United
16 Nations representative and to the President of
17 the United States.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
19 Maltese.
20 SENATOR MALTESE: Madam
21 President, first of all, this resolution would
22 be open to anyone who wishes to join in
23 sponsoring it, and while I'm saying that about
3651
1 opening resolutions, I'd refer to Resolution
2 300... 300... it looks like ...5 which is
3 commemorating the 100th Anniversary of the
4 Appellate Division, Second Department, which is
5 also open to all members.
6 Madam President, this important
7 resolution seeks to retain in our thoughts and
8 in our minds and in our prayers a very, very
9 terrible genocide that took place many years
10 ago.
11 As the resolution spoke for
12 itself as to revisionists who seek to hide this
13 terrible atrocity from the minds and hearts of
14 so many Americans, we must remember that in many
15 ways, the past is -- foretells what comes in the
16 future, and if more people had spoken out and
17 fought against this terrible atrocity, then
18 perhaps the Holocaust of the second -- during
19 the second World War and prior to it would not
20 have taken place.
21 We have the responsibility in the
22 Legislature of bringing resolutions and
23 cataclysmic events like this to the floor, and I
3652
1 join with the Armenian community of New York
2 State and the nation and Reverend Father
3 Khatchig Megerdichian from the church in Troy, a
4 church that is within Senator Bruno's Senatorial
5 District, and mention the fact that despite this
6 atrocity and despite this holocaust, the
7 Armenians who disseminated throughout Europe and
8 came to the New World and the United States had
9 made a place for themselves as American citizens
10 of the first order and are in every line of
11 endeavor with -- with special emphasis in
12 business and in medicine, and we in America are
13 very happy that we share the pride in America
14 with our Armenian-Americans.
15 So, again, Madam President, I
16 urge the adoption of this resolution
17 commemorating American Martyrs' Day on April
18 24th, 1996.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
20 you, Senator Maltese.
21 The question is on the resolution
22 -- pardon me. Another Senator wanted to
23 speak.
3653
1 Yes, I'm sorry.
2 SENATOR LACHMAN: Madam
3 President, my distinguished colleague who is
4 sponsoring this resolution, I would be honored
5 if he would allow me to co-sponsor it because I
6 believe, as he believes and I know all of us
7 believe, that genocide should be condemned
8 regardless of who perpetrates it and who
9 suffers.
10 Unfortunately, this was the first
11 major genocide in the 20th Century and many
12 historians hushed up the fact that it was, and
13 tragically it might have led others to believe
14 that they could get away with genocide against
15 other peoples, and I would be honored to
16 co-sponsor this resolution and to state that
17 categorically, the belief of this chamber that
18 genocide against any group regardless of race,
19 religion, ethnic and nat... or national origin
20 should be condemned and deplored any place in
21 the world.
22 Thank you.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
3654
1 you, Senator Lachman.
2 Senator Marcellino, would you
3 like to have us put all members on this bill
4 unless notified by -- to the desk.
5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I believe
6 that was Senator Maltese's wish at the beginning
7 so, yes, by all means.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
9 you. That will be so ordered.
10 The question is on the
11 resolution. All in favor signify by saying
12 aye.
13 (Response of "Aye".)
14 Opposed, nay.
15 (There was no response.)
16 The resolution is adopted.
17 Senator Marcellino.
18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
19 President, may we have a reading of the non- -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: We have
21 substitutions.
22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Make the
23 substitutions, if you have it.
3655
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
2 you, Senator Marcellino.
3 The Secretary will read.
4 THE SECRETARY: On page 7,
5 Senator Kuhl moves to discharge from the
6 Committee on Agriculture, Assembly Bill Number
7 1221-A and substitute it for the identical
8 Second Report Calendar Number 720.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: So
10 ordered.
11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
12 President, at this time may we have a reading of
13 the non-controversial calendar.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
15 Secretary will read.
16 THE SECRETARY: On page 12,
17 Calendar Number 296, by Senator Skelos -
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the
20 bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 393, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3612, an
23 act to amend the Domestic Relations Law, the
3656
1 Criminal Procedure Law and the Family Court Act.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the
4 bill aside.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 394, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4840, an
7 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in
8 relation to expanding the circumstances under
9 which orders of protection may be continued.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
11 last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect on the first day of
14 November.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
16 roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
20 is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 450, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 6316-A,
23 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
3657
1 Law, in relation to permitting the hunting of
2 game on Sunday.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay that
4 aside.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the
6 bill aside.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 578, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4117, an act
9 to amend the General Business Law and the
10 Executive Law, in relation to exemptions from
11 the Security Guard Act.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside,
13 please.
14 SENATOR KUHL: Madam President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Why do
16 you rise, Senator Kuhl?
17 SENATOR KUHL: Would you place a
18 sponsor's star on that bill, please.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: At the
20 request by the sponsor, put a star on the bill.
21 So ordered.
22 SENATOR KUHL: Thank you.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3658
1 582, by member of the Assembly Nolan, Assembly
2 Print 6741-B, an act to amend the Labor Law, in
3 relation to requiring growers and processors to
4 provide safe drinking water.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
6 last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
10 Mendez.
11 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes, Madam
12 President, to explain my vote.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: We'll
14 call the roll then, Senator Mendez, if you
15 would.
16 Thank you. Please call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll.)
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
20 Mendez.
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Madam
22 President.
23 About 15 years ago, I introduced
3659
1 two bills that at the time the only thing that
2 they did was, number one, provide -- provide
3 toilet facilities on the fields where the
4 migrant workers do, in fact, work and the other
5 one was for the establishment of a -- public
6 telephones so they could call their families if
7 they wanted to. At the time it seems -- at the
8 time it seems that nothing could be done about
9 that.
10 About two years ago, Madam
11 President, the Minority Leader, Senator Connor,
12 appointed a joint legislative task force on farm
13 issues, and we conducted public hearings and as
14 a result of those public -- of that public
15 hearing, we were able to come up with a report
16 concerning the plight of farm workers in the
17 great state of New York, and a couple of them
18 have been passed in the Assembly.
19 Today, we just finished passing a
20 bill that I think is the first bill in many,
21 many years that has been passed and that, in
22 fact, helps the plight of the farm workers. I
23 couldn't possibly let go of the fact that
3660
1 without the cooperation and understanding of
2 Senator Bruno, without the understanding and
3 cooperation of Senator Spano, who understood the
4 need for this bill and reported the bill out to
5 the Committee on Water Resources and there, a
6 very good friend also, Senator Tully, expressed
7 concern and was able to report it out to the
8 floor.
9 Yesterday, I received the
10 cooperation of Senator Dean Skelos, of course,
11 Senator Bruno, and I want to acknowledge the
12 work done on this issue and -- on behalf of farm
13 workers by Reverend Witt, and Miss -- and other
14 coalitions that are fighting to remove
15 inequities from the labor laws as it pertains to
16 the farm workers. I feel there are still some
17 things to be -- I can appreciate there's a long
18 way to go. However, the important thing is -
19 in terms of my own experience is that rational
20 minds can get together, discuss issues and agree
21 to solutions that, in fact, remedy a need of a
22 group, of a people or what have you.
23 So I want to thank these
3661
1 wonderful gentlemen for the help that they have
2 given us, for the great hope that they have
3 given the farm workers of New York State.
4 Thank you, Madam President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
6 you, Senator Mendez.
7 Announce the vote.
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
10 is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 614, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print 2612-A, an
13 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
14 increasing the penalties for the sale of
15 controlled substances.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the
18 bill aside.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 617, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3803, an
21 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in
22 relation to the period of time which must be
23 excluded.
3662
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
2 last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
10 is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 621, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5793, an
13 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
14 consecutive terms of imprisonment.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
16 last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect on the first day of
19 November.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
3663
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 623, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 6028, an
5 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in
6 relation to mandatory arrests and orders of
7 protection in family offense cases.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
9 last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
11 act shall take effect in 90 days.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
13 roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 688, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2596, an
20 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules,
21 in relation to the statute of limitations for
22 enforcement of support orders.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
3664
1 last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect in 90 days.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
9 is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 705, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2120, an
12 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation
13 to the fair treatment of child witnesses in
14 child protective proceedings.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
16 last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
18 act shall take effect on the first day of
19 November.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
3665
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 708, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 6227, an
5 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
6 payments received as profit for a crime.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it aside.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the
9 bill aside.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 709, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 6230-A,
12 an act to amend the Executive Law, in relation
13 to victim notification and verification
14 procedures for police.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
16 last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
20 roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll.)
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 50.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
3666
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 712, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 6924, an
4 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
5 making available to their victims the proceeds
6 of civil recoveries.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
8 last section.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it aside.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Lay the
11 bill aside.
12 Senator Marcellino, that
13 completes the non-controversial reading of the
14 calendar.
15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
16 President, may we now take up the fearfully,
17 awesome controversial calendar.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
19 Secretary will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 296, Senator Skelos, Senate Print 6072-A, an act
22 to amend the County Law and the General
23 Municipal Law, in relation to authorizing
3667
1 counties.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: An
4 explanation has been requested.
5 Senator Skelos.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, Madam
7 President.
8 This legislation will authorize
9 counties by local law, at the option of the
10 county, to establish a crime case status hot
11 line providing for an automated toll-free victim
12 notification system and/or a pay per call jail
13 information line.
14 The automated crime victim
15 notification system will enable victims to gain
16 information about the pending criminal
17 proceedings in which he or she may have been
18 involved, the custody status of the alleged
19 perpetrator and any other details, including
20 court dates. The system can also automatically
21 call the victim, informing him or her of the
22 release date of the alleged offender.
23 You know, statistics are very
3668
1 clear that 280,000 women are battered every year
2 in New York State. There is a report of
3 domestic violence to law enforcement agencies
4 every 15 seconds, and according to the FBI, four
5 women a week are killed and an untold number of
6 others are injured as a result of domestic
7 abuse. In these cases, the first few hours of
8 release of the offender are critical in
9 protecting the women.
10 We believe this type of program
11 which has been successful -- successfully used
12 in New Jersey, in Kentucky will go a long way in
13 protecting those who are victims of domestic
14 violence and, in fact, others who have been
15 victimized by those about to be released from
16 jail.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
18 Paterson.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
20 Madam President.
21 We'd like to congratulate Senator
22 Skelos for his work. The establishment of a
23 crime case status hot line would certainly be in
3669
1 order. The statistics that Senator Skelos just
2 made available to us are staggering and that, as
3 well as the other victims of crimes who would be
4 gained very favorably by knowing this
5 information is certainly laudable.
6 If Senator Skelos would yield for
7 a few questions.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator,
9 will you yield?
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam
11 President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
13 Senator yields.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, the
15 issue of counties perhaps would have the option
16 to pay for this type of service, but isn't it
17 also true that in the bill that a one percent
18 premium of bail would go toward paying for the
19 crime case status hot line?
20 SENATOR SKELOS: Presently, three
21 percent is retained. We would allow for one
22 year that there could be an additional one
23 percent retained by the counties and, of course,
3670
1 you know if a person is found innocent or if a
2 case is dismissed and not pursued, that
3 percentage goes back to whoever posted the
4 bail. Only if there is a conviction or a plea,
5 which is a conviction, would that be retained,
6 or a county could opt to have a pay per call
7 charge not to be paid by the victim or the
8 victim's attorney but others who may seek the
9 information, or a county could choose not to
10 charge anything at all. It would be at the
11 option of the county.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Just to
13 clarify, Senator, I just want to make sure that
14 if an individual who is arrested is found to be
15 not guilty or if the charges are dismissed, the
16 one percent, therefore, would be returned. In
17 other words, 100 percent of -
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator
19 DeFrancisco informs me that it's not returned.
20 So I would stand corrected then on that.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Okay. That's
22 what I thought, Senator, and since that is the
23 case, I guess my question is, do we not set up a
3671
1 situation where we have a hot line that we
2 sorely need; and this is not a discussion of
3 your intent to establish the hot line because we
4 wholeheartedly agree with it. We hope we can
5 work this out so that we can have a crime case
6 status hot line. All the victim services
7 organizations have been asking for it and you've
8 responded to them, but the question is don't we
9 set up a situation where, in a sense, innocent
10 people, because of the fact that they were
11 charged, are now being put in the position of
12 paying for this hot line that all citizens of
13 the state can benefit?
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Again, that's at
15 the option of the county. The county does not
16 have to implement the additional surcharge. The
17 county could do it by a charge per call similar
18 to what we're doing under the "Megan's Law" with
19 the 900 number where you pay a fee and that will
20 help pay for the cost of the -- of the 900
21 number. It's at the option of the county.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
23 Senator Skelos.
3672
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
2 Paterson, does that complete -
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
4 President -
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: You said
6 you had several questions. Does that complete
7 your several questions? Senator Waldon has
8 requested the floor.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: No, it didn't.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: It did
11 not complete your several questions. Did you
12 want Senator Skelos to proceed, or did you have
13 another question?
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Maybe I should
15 think of a word that means more than "several".
16 I have an infinite number of questions.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
18 Skelos.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: I certainly
20 would be happy to answer -
21 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
22 Paterson, yes, go ahead.
23 SENATOR SKELOS: -- a few more
3673
1 questions.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: An
3 infinite number of questions, I don't know
4 whether there's a ruling on that in the
5 handbook. I'll check that out.
6 Go ahead, Senator Paterson. I
7 think you've got at least a few more.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: We have just a
9 few more questions and, really, I'll defer to
10 Senator Waldon. I would just like to get this
11 issue cleared up.
12 First of all, Senator, I'm
13 concerned that we have a situation where certain
14 counties would be bearing a greater encumbrance
15 than other counties for establishing this entire
16 service, and the fact that individuals -- let's
17 say if someone pays $100,000 in bail, that
18 $1,000 might go to set up this hot line and the
19 person may be found to be not guilty or the
20 charges may be dismissed, and my concern in this
21 situation is that I think that is a tremendous
22 burden to ask of an individual who has simply
23 been arrested, not convicted of a crime, but a
3674
1 bail has been set and a bail in this state means
2 to assure the presence and the cooperation of
3 the defendant, that -
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator
5 Paterson, maybe I can correct myself again. I'm
6 informed by learned counsel that actually if you
7 are found not guilty or the case is not
8 continued, that the three percent is returned to
9 the individual. So that renders moot your
10 concern.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator -
12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
13 Paterson, another question?
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, this is
15 the last question.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The last
17 of the infinite.
18 Senator Skelos, do you yield?
19 (Senator Skelos nods head.)
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Proceed.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: You have now
22 answered to my satisfaction about the three
23 percent that you cover in the bill, but what
3675
1 about the one percent that's still there, the
2 one percent that may be dedicated to
3 establishing the case status hot line?
4 SENATOR SKELOS: That would be
5 returned also? It wouldn't be charged. It
6 would be returned also if you're found not
7 guilty.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you very
9 much, Senator Skelos.
10 You have helped to clear up the
11 issue of who will pay for the criminal case
12 status hot line and also have helped me for the
13 first time in history to define the term
14 "infinite".
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: That was
16 wonderful, Senator.
17 Senator Waldon.
18 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
19 much, Madam President.
20 Would Senator Skelos yield to a
21 question or two?
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam
23 President.
3676
1 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Madam
2 President.
3 Senator, I'm trying to get a
4 sense of the real information that will be given
5 to the caller. John Doe is arrested. A woman
6 is the alleged victim. She calls the hot line.
7 It says here that certain information will be
8 given. It's only the information that you have
9 in this bill, this proposal where he's located,
10 the charge, what really will be disseminated?
11 SENATOR SKELOS: The information
12 that we're trying to give to the victim is
13 information, for example, when a woman's
14 batterer is going to be released from jail so
15 that she will know that there may be a potential
16 problem for her with this release, and the way
17 it would work is the victim could call the hot
18 line. A person would have a PIN number and a
19 case number so that the 800 number that's called
20 would know the case that's involved, the fact
21 that this person is a victim. They could then
22 find out the information that they want, such as
23 the release date, or you can even set up a
3677
1 system where, by computer, there is a call made
2 to the victim's home when a person is going to
3 be released and it will continue to call that
4 home until there is contact made with the victim
5 so that the person knows that somebody is about
6 to be released from jail or there's a trial date
7 established, that type of thing. So it's really
8 information that will be made available to the
9 victim to be able to better protect themselves.
10 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
12 Waldon. Senator Skelos, will you yield to
13 another question?
14 SENATOR WALDON: So from what
15 you're saying -- and I'm really trying to get a
16 sense from what I'm reading -- victimless crimes
17 will not be part and parcel of this. For
18 example, someone commits a burglary. There's no
19 one home. No one is injured and they exit the
20 burglary. Someone requesting information
21 anonymously about that person would not be given
22 the information, is that correct?
23 SENATOR SKELOS: You still get
3678
1 the information. I believe if my house is
2 burglarized, I'm a victim, whether I'm in that
3 house or not.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
6 Waldon. Senator Skelos, do you yield?
7 (Senator Skelos nods head.)
8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Yes, he
9 yields.
10 SENATOR WALDON: If what you've
11 said in terms, Senator, just then, stretching
12 what I normally characterize as "victims" -- for
13 example, the Crime Victims Compensation Board
14 might compensate someone for burglary, but I
15 think normally an injury of sorts is involved.
16 Can we say then that all crimes -- information
17 regarding all crimes by a person involved as the
18 victim in the crime or someone anonymously can
19 call and get the information on the person who's
20 alleged to have committed this act?
21 SENATOR SKELOS: And this would
22 be at the option of the county. The county
23 could set up the system any way they wish. They
3679
1 could narrow it to domestic violence. They
2 could make it expanded to any type of a crime.
3 Your definition of a "victim" may be one thing.
4 I look at it from the point of view if somebody
5 has burglarized my house, I have been
6 victimized. If somebody steals my car, whether
7 I'm in it or not, I have been victimized. If
8 the county opts to include that type of
9 information in the crime victim hot line, then
10 that would be accessible by me as a victim.
11 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President,
12 may I continue, please?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
14 Skelos, do you continue to yield?
15 SENATOR SKELOS: And just to
16 follow up, Senator Waldon, most of this
17 information is public information anyway when an
18 individual has been arrested. What we're doing
19 is we're making -- we're coming into the
20 computer world, the computer age, and just
21 making the information a little bit more
22 available.
23 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President,
3680
1 if I may continue.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
3 Skelos, do you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
5 SENATOR WALDON: Are you implying
6 by your response, Senator Skelos, that someone
7 arrested and an entry is made in the police
8 blotter that somehow that goes out in the
9 Internet or the Web saying, John Doe just robbed
10 six people on the corner of 156th Street and
11 Amsterdam Avenue or Broadway in New York City;
12 is that what you're saying?
13 SENATOR SKELOS: You have to have
14 a PIN number. If you paid attention to what I
15 said to Senator Paterson, that you have to have
16 a PIN number to access that information.
17 SENATOR WALDON: Then as a
18 follow-up to that, the only person who has a PIN
19 number -- or only those persons who have PIN
20 numbers will be those who have been identified
21 by the county as victims; is that what you're
22 saying?
23 SENATOR SKELOS: That's right.
3681
1 Or their attorney, bail bondsman, that type of
2 person.
3 SENATOR WALDON: Last question.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
5 Waldon. Last question, Senator Skelos.
6 Go ahead, Senator.
7 SENATOR WALDON: Under the
8 Freedom of Information Law, as I understand it,
9 there are certain investigations conducted by a
10 district attorney or the New York State
11 Commission of Investigation or other lawful body
12 in the state, whereby even I as a legislator
13 cannot call and ask for information because it
14 might compromise the investigation, the ongoing
15 investigation. Would this in any way interfere
16 with ongoing investigations by district
17 attorneys, Commission of Investigation or other
18 investigative bodies in the state?
19 SENATOR SKELOS: I would assume
20 that the counties have to abide by what the law
21 is and whatever the freedom of information laws
22 are.
23 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you.
3682
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
2 Waldon.
3 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President,
4 on the bill.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the
6 bill.
7 SENATOR WALDON: I'm a little bit
8 frightened by this. I think that "1984" -- was
9 that the title of the book? It was "1984"?
10 SENATOR LACHMAN: Yes. Published
11 in '48 and it was called "1984".
12 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you.
13 Our learned educator just advised
14 me that they flipped the numbers. I think that
15 "1984" may be visiting us in 1996, and I'm
16 worried by that. I'm worried because anyone who
17 has a lawyer, who is a victim can get the
18 information anyway. So why do we need to put it
19 on the phone and why do we need to have PIN
20 numbers to access it?
21 I think that when you get into
22 the business of putting people's business in the
23 street, there are too many negatives, too many
3683
1 down sides to that, and I think this rush to
2 share information about someone who may have
3 committed a crime and who may have caused
4 someone to be a victim and who may owe a debt to
5 society is a dangerous, dangerous ground to walk
6 upon, because my fear is that those who will be
7 most maligned by this process are the ones who
8 are always most maligned by this process, those
9 characterized -- and the director of Criminal
10 Justice in our fair state, Mr. Schechtman, his
11 report shows that blacks in this state, Latinos
12 in this state, if committing the same act or
13 alleged to have committed the same act will,
14 one, not be treated fairly or equally, if you
15 can characterize "equal" as fair, as a white
16 counterpart with the precisely same profile.
17 Someone the same age, the same area, the same
18 allegation, the same financial and social
19 background, the black or Latino will almost 30
20 percent of the time do time or receive
21 punishment even when it comes to, if arrested or
22 you're released on your own recognizance, or do
23 you spend the night or some days in jail? I
3684
1 think this compounds that.
2 I think this compounds that the
3 report shows that racism is alive and well in
4 New York State. I think it's unnecessary. I
5 think it's overbroad. I think it does a
6 disservice to us because all of us who practice
7 or are part and parcel of the criminal justice
8 system know that your lawyer can get all of this
9 information. So why do you want to put it on
10 the Net or on the Web or whatever? Who are you
11 looking to punish and who are you looking to
12 damage with this information?
13 I would encourage my colleagues
14 to look at that and to think about it and see if
15 that is something that the people of the state
16 of New York should be about, and I would
17 encourage all of us to recognize that it's too
18 much too soon, and we should vote no on this
19 issue.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
21 Dollinger.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would the
23 sponsor yield to just a couple of questions?
3685
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
2 Skelos, do you yield?
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam
4 President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
6 Senator yields.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, I'm
8 interested in page 2 of the bill, lines 21 and
9 22 which talk about the provision that "In no
10 case shall the county be held liable for damages
11 for any failure to provide notice pursuant to
12 this section."
13 My question is what happens if
14 the information provided by the county is
15 inaccurate; is the county still liable for the
16 inaccurate information on this data?
17 SENATOR SKELOS: No. They would
18 not be. They're held immune.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. I
20 understand that's what you're trying to do.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: It's very
22 similar to, I believe the Correction Law where
23 it involves state notification.
3686
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Right. I -
2 if that's what you want to do is create that
3 blanket immunity, I don't think this line does
4 it because I can foresee that what this in
5 essence says, or what I think its most literal
6 reading is, that if a county elected not to have
7 the system, it couldn't be held liable for the
8 failure to implement the system, which I think
9 you and I both agree. There shouldn't be any
10 liability on the part of the county for the
11 failure to follow through on this optional
12 system, but as it's drafted, what I see this
13 doing is opening the door that if the
14 information provided by the county to the victim
15 is inaccurate and the victim relies on that
16 inaccurate information, the county will be
17 sued. This language doesn't create immunity.
18 It doesn't even mention the word "immunity", and
19 I would suggest that you strengthen it by adding
20 "immunity", if that's what you want to do.
21 The other question I have, and it
22 deals with immunity, is what happens if the
23 information provided to the county is not
3687
1 accurate? If the incarceration institution says
2 -- doesn't update the information or it's not
3 accurately provided, the assumption is that the
4 person is still in the -- in incarceration and
5 yet has not been released. It seems to me you
6 have the same problem. The victim relies on the
7 data from the hot line. The victim doesn't
8 change their conduct and the whole point of this
9 is to, as I understand it, I think rightfully
10 so, is to allow victims, to know, to understand
11 and to alter their conduct, either contact the
12 Parole Board or to take personal actions or
13 obtain protective orders, whatever. It seems to
14 me that if what you have done here is said that
15 the county can't -
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator
17 Dollinger, you know the system is not perfect.
18 I don't think we can devise a system that's
19 perfect. We allow for the system to contact the
20 victim. We allow the victim to contact the
21 system, and I think it affords just an
22 additional protection, perhaps not perfect.
23 It's like orders of protection. They're not
3688
1 perfect, but it's a little additional "oomph" to
2 try and protect somebody, and this is what this
3 system is doing.
4 It's just trying to give that
5 little additional protection so that a person
6 who has, for example, suffered from domestic
7 violence will know that a spouse or significant
8 other is coming out of jail and can better
9 protect themselves from a violent situation.
10 That's all it's doing. We don't pretend for it
11 to be perfect, that it's going to stop all
12 domestic violence; that it's going to stop all
13 violence by those when they're released from
14 jail or incarceration. It's just a little bit
15 more.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the bill,
17 Madam President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the
19 bill, Senator Dollinger.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I agree with
21 Senator Skelos. I don't think that we have to
22 be perfect in achieving our balance here, but
23 what I'm afraid of is that this language doesn't
3689
1 create enough of an immunity so the counties
2 will actually do it, because what I think will
3 happen is that county attorneys will read this
4 provision and realize that if they set up this
5 system, the cost to maintain it with a level of
6 accuracy so that they can be assured that
7 they've got something that victims can rely on,
8 I think they're going to look at it and say that
9 the risk of this kind of system is very, very
10 expensive.
11 I know there have been lawsuits
12 brought against the 911 system in other
13 counties, a very significant one brought against
14 Erie County a couple of years ago which resulted
15 in a multi-million dollar damage award because
16 the person relied on the system and the system
17 didn't work.
18 So I would suggest that perhaps
19 if we reach a point where the Assembly is going
20 to sit down and go over this bill, that you
21 strengthen the immunity provisions. If what you
22 really want to do is make them create it more as
23 a service rather than something they can
3690
1 absolutely depend on, then you ought to say that
2 and you ought to make the county immune from any
3 lawsuit, because it'll be a spur to get counties
4 to actually do it.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
6 you, Senator Dollinger.
7 Read the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
14 Paterson, why do you rise?
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
16 President, to explain my vote.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: To
18 explain your vote.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: I cannot vote
20 for this bill at this time only because in spite
21 of, I think, the sincere assurance of the
22 sponsor and his counsel, that the money would be
23 refunded to the defendant after there is a
3691
1 dismissal of the charges or a finding of not
2 guilty by the court, though I believe that, I
3 don't find it anywhere in this bill, and I
4 suggest that counties, as strapped as they are
5 financially, may not return that money, and I do
6 not want to see innocent people paying large
7 sums of money merely by the fact that they were
8 arrested to sustain the criminal case hot line
9 when it is a great idea, and I think it's
10 something that we as a government should sponsor
11 ourselves and those who post bail and then are
12 found to be guilty should certainly be financing
13 their part of it. However, I just don't think
14 it would be fair at all to individuals who have
15 been charged and not found to be guilty of any
16 crime to have to pay for that hot line.
17 I vote no.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
19 you, Senator.
20 Announce the vote.
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58, nays 1,
22 Senator Paterson recorded in the negative.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
3692
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 393, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3612, an
4 act to amend the Domestic Relations Law, the
5 Criminal Procedure Law and the Family Court Act,
6 in relation to imposing a mandatory surcharge.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: An
9 explanation has been requested.
10 Senator Skelos.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
12 this bill establishes the Domestic Violence
13 Legal Service Account. The account will be
14 funded by a surcharge imposed by parties against
15 whom an order of protection has been issued.
16 The surcharge will be $25 per order of
17 protection. The funds generated from this
18 surcharge will be appropriated to the Office of
19 Prevention of Domestic Violence to be used for
20 legal services for the victims of domestic
21 violence.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
23 Paterson.
3693
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
2 President, if Senator Skelos would yield for
3 three questions.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
5 Skelos -
6 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm counting.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: -- three
8 questions.
9 SENATOR SKELOS: I'm counting.
10 Number one.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Proceed.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Number one,
13 Senator, in spite of the fact that, again you
14 have picked a very important area and one that
15 has not been addressed enough with the
16 tremendous number of stalkings and the issues
17 related to domestic violence and other forms of
18 harassment and threat and coercion but, again, I
19 want to talk to you about the manner in which
20 this is funded.
21 Do you not think that it may
22 exacerbate a situation for the surcharge to be
23 placed on an individual who is being identified
3694
1 by the court as a risk but has not actually been
2 in any way necessarily charged, and so this
3 action by the court is not one that's final or
4 renders a judgment; it is one that just creates
5 what would, in a sense, be a protection for the
6 victim, to then levy a charge against the
7 individual that the order of protection is taken
8 seems to indicate an opinion that the court has
9 rather than the fact that the court is
10 protecting the defendant against a risk.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: The best way I
12 can answer that, in my opinion, is that the
13 surcharge is appropriate for the purposes for
14 which it's going to be used, and that's to
15 provide -- help provide legal services to those
16 who are victims of domestic violence and who
17 need the assistance.
18 Certainly as we -- the bill is
19 discussed with the Assembly, there could be
20 discussions concerning indigency and other
21 issues involved.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Question
23 number two, Senator.
3695
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Question number
2 two.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: This is a
4 short question. What is the manner of
5 collection that we will use for the surcharge
6 since the individual -- would we do that during
7 the process of service of the order of
8 protection?
9 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
10 Number three.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Number
12 three.
13 SENATOR PATERSON: Number three,
14 Senator, just simply, in your answer to question
15 number one, you gave -
16 SENATOR SKELOS: This is number
17 three.
18 SENATOR PATERSON: Right. No.
19 I'm saying in your answer to question number one
20 as a preamble to question number three, you
21 indicated that there is a need for this kind of
22 service and that the money will go to a very
23 good cause, but just to, in a sense, follow up
3696
1 on question number one as number three, I would
2 again like you to answer what it is about taking
3 the money from the -- from the individual who
4 was identified as the object of the order of
5 protection when the court has not made any
6 determination as to whether or not there's a
7 need for the order but what the court is doing
8 is taking a preventive meas... a preventive
9 measure. So my question is, why should an
10 individual pay for a preventive measure? Would
11 the court not be -- the court is, in a sense,
12 erring on the side of caution if we issue an
13 order of protection and there is no need for it,
14 but we should still issue it.
15 The question is, why is the
16 object being charged for what would be a very
17 needed service? Why don't we just establish it
18 as a government because people need to have
19 additional services? That's something that is,
20 in a sense, called for by the staggering
21 statistics that you related to us earlier. So
22 rather than put it on the object, why would we
23 not just provide this in the law and provide
3697
1 this in our budget?
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator
3 Paterson.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
5 Skelos.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: This legislation
7 that we're passing today is part of an ongoing
8 discussion with the Assembly where many of the
9 issues that you've raised will perhaps be
10 discussed with them if the final bill can be -
11 agreement can be reached on this type of
12 legislation. We are moving the process
13 forward.
14 Remember, when an order of
15 protection is issued, the judge has made a
16 determination that something serious has
17 happened here. So I don't personally have a
18 problem with a $25 surcharge at that point. As
19 our discussions continue with the Assembly, this
20 is one of the issues that will be raised and it
21 could/could not be part of the final bill that's
22 agreed upon by both houses, your concerns, I'm
23 talking about.
3698
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
2 Paterson, on the bill.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
4 Madam President.
5 I somewhat differ in my
6 interpretation of what the order of protection
7 is with Senator Skelos. Many times, there is
8 not the requisite evidence or the proof at that
9 particular time to establish what an individual
10 may have done to another individual. What the
11 order of protection does is, in a sense, serve
12 as a warning that the criminal justice system
13 has taken notice of this situation and that it
14 will, in a sense, serve as a deeper
15 understanding if there's any further action
16 after the order of protection is issued of what
17 may have already been going on.
18 So I don't see it as something
19 serious has been observed by the court. It's
20 that the court has a notion that something
21 serious may have occurred and would like to
22 protect the victim from any further violence or
23 any further harassment.
3699
1 Because of that, because it is
2 not punitive but it is preventive, I don't think
3 that -- the individual who may become so
4 antagonized by the levy of this fee so that the
5 individual causes more harm, I don't think it's
6 wise to place the money in that fashion.
7 However, again, in two bills today, Senator
8 Skelos has developed a concept on some issues
9 that we as a body have for a long time needed to
10 address.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
12 you, Senator Paterson.
13 Senator Gold.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. Would the
15 Senator yield to a question?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
17 Skelos, will you yield?
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam
19 President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
21 yields.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, does this
23 only apply to Family Court or any court issuing
3700
1 an order of protection?
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Any court.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, if
4 the Senator will yield, let me just throw
5 something out, and I'll tell you a concern.
6 It's not a heavy concern, but it is a concern.
7 I know as a practicing lawyer,
8 from time to time the Attorney General or others
9 in a business setting will sue for something
10 against somebody doing a certain kind of an
11 illegal activity and what always happens -- not
12 always, but a lot of times happens, is the
13 defendant will say, "We don't do that; we don't
14 do that," and so a judge will say, "If you're
15 not doing it, there's no harm to the injunction"
16 and you say, "You don't understand, your Honor.
17 Why should I have it on my record that I needed
18 somebody to enjoin me from doing an illegal act
19 or something I shouldn't be doing, when the fact
20 is I never violated anything?"
21 Senator, in 90 percent of those
22 cases, the injunction gets ordered. The judge
23 has forced the defendant in a situation where
3701
1 they say there's been nothing raised, say no.
2 Now, we take the orders of
3 protection. Senator, I don't want to do the
4 kind of outrageous judge bashing that's easy for
5 newspaper reporters to do, or others to do, but
6 the fact is that we are in an environment now
7 where there are judges who don't want to be
8 criticized by this newspaper or that newspaper,
9 and so I'm telling you, take this -- and you can
10 take this to the bank, orders of protection, if
11 asked for now, are being given and the excuse
12 is, "Well, in the discretion of the court I'm
13 going to issue it." Why? Because God forbid
14 anything happens that judge's name isn't going
15 to be in the paper that he refused an order for
16 protection.
17 As if that wasn't bad enough, now
18 the suggestion is that somebody is going to have
19 to pay for it. Now, I certainly believe that
20 orders of protection, while they can not stop
21 massive assaults on people by people who are
22 going to do it, I think it's an important tool,
23 and I do support orders of protection, and I do
3702
1 believe that, if you have a situation where you
2 have a hearing or you have a process and a court
3 determines, based upon facts in a record, that
4 an order of protection should be issued, I don't
5 have a problem.
6 I do have a problem if it's
7 mandated, and that's my question. Is there any
8 leeway here for a judge to not charge the money,
9 because it seems to me that if a judge in
10 today's atmosphere is going to issue orders of
11 protection just to protect the judge from
12 criticism more than anything else, that to throw
13 a fine on top of it or a court charge is really
14 adding insult to people who aren't being
15 injured.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator Gold,
17 just to respond. Under this legislation, no,
18 there's no discretion but, as I mentioned to
19 Senator Paterson, this bill -- and I know what
20 we're voting on today is this bill. These types
21 of concerns are being discussed with the
22 Assembly, whether the money should be held in
23 abeyance, whether there should be an indigency
3703
1 provision. Other discussions are ongoing with
2 the Assembly. I know we're voting on the bill
3 as it is today, but I'm looking to move the
4 process forward. Hopefully the Assembly will
5 come to the table and negotiate, but in the end,
6 I can very comfortably live with this bill the
7 way it is.
8 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, on
9 the bill, Madam President.
10 SENATOR RATH: On the bill.
11 SENATOR GOLD: And I don't want
12 to make it bigger than it is, but when we say
13 we're discussing and, therefore, it's important
14 to pass it because it may be amended, I don't
15 know where that logic comes from because the
16 only thing I see from this bill we're talking
17 about is it sets up a mandatory surcharge and,
18 if the Assembly does away with the mandatory
19 surcharge, I don't know what the bill was about
20 to begin with. But I'm telling you it's a
21 terrible thing, and we're not talking, just so
22 my colleagues understand this -- I'm not talking
23 about some minority guy on welfare. You know,
3704
1 that's an easy target for every piece of
2 legislation we ever discuss in this house. I'm
3 talking about people who are being brought into
4 the courts, an action is started, a husband and
5 wife. He works, she works, they got money.
6 Money is not the issue, Senator, but the charge
7 is made by a wife or even by a husband that an
8 order of protection is necessary and, before the
9 case even gets started, before there's a
10 hearing, a judge decides an omnibus motion and
11 along with the omnibus motion, the judge says,
12 "And in my discretion I'll issue the order of
13 protection."
14 Well, first of all, it's
15 outrageous that judges are doing that, but I
16 understand it. The press to some extent has
17 poisoned the court system, poisoned an
18 atmosphere. They won't admit it because there's
19 no guts there, but they've done that. But now
20 to add a fee on top of it, I mean it just seems
21 to me to be creating a situation which makes no
22 sense to me.
23 If some -- if an order of
3705
1 protection is needed, issue it by all means.
2 The policemen in our cities should take them
3 seriously, and I know there have been problems
4 over the years where they haven't. They should
5 be taken seriously, but, Senator, I think we
6 have an obligation in this chamber to have our
7 eyes open to what is actually happening in the
8 courtroom and, you know, years ago they used to
9 criticize the Legislature that there were too
10 many lawyers. Well, maybe today we don't have
11 enough, and I mean lawyers who practice and are
12 in the courts.
13 If you're in the courts, you see
14 the enormous pressure judges are put under.
15 You'll understand that today -- I'm not talking
16 about three weeks ago, and I'm not talking about
17 two years ago -- today there are orders of
18 protection being issued which I believe are not
19 valid, not justified, but where judges are
20 protecting themselves, and to add this kind of a
21 burden on it -- and it's not a financial burden;
22 the 25 bucks is not the financial burden, but
23 now people walk around, Gee, that guy had to get
3706
1 an order of protection out against him, and he
2 had to pay 25 bucks for it also. That's what's
3 going to happen to that man, that woman, in
4 their real life, Senator, and it's putting
5 somebody under a black cloud before the case
6 even begins, and I don't think it's fair.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
8 Leichter.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yeah, Madam
10 President. Would Senator Skelos yield, please.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
12 Skelos, would you yield?
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
15 Skelos, I'm not that familiar with orders of
16 protection, but it's my belief that you can get
17 an order of protection without the person
18 against whom the order is directed ever
19 appearing in court. In other words, a woman
20 would go to court, and she'll submit an
21 affidavit. She may have a bruise. Judge will
22 look. Under the circumstances -- I think
23 Senator Gold explained it very well -- it's
3707
1 reasonable for a judge to say, "O.K., I'm going
2 to issue this order. You say you were punched
3 by your boy friend Harry; I'm going to issue an
4 order, and I want the court to serve it on
5 Harry," whatever his last name is.
6 Harry has never been in court,
7 but the order issues. Am I correct in the
8 procedure?
9 SENATOR SKELOS: $25 surcharge.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: O.K. Now, it
11 turns out, Senator, that this was totally made
12 up. She was mad at Harry for something else,
13 and she made it up and while I don't mean to say
14 that most of the time when women go and try to
15 get orders of protection, probably in 95 percent
16 or 98 percent of the cases it's appropriate, but
17 here you've got a case, the order issued. Then
18 Harry shows up in court and the order is vacated
19 and so on.
20 But am I not correct under this
21 bill, and I think you just blurted it out -
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, the answer
23 is $25 surcharge.
3708
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, yes, I
2 mean I don't think anything more ought to be
3 said. I think you ought to just withdraw the
4 bill. I mean it makes no sense whatsoever. I
5 mean with all due respect.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator
7 Leichter, last year the bill passed 57 to 1.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Same bill?
9 SENATOR SKELOS: Same bill,
10 passed 57 to 1. I think you may have voted
11 against it.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm not going
13 to say -
14 SENATOR SKELOS: But the bill did
15 pass. I think it's a good bill standing up by
16 itself, but I think through discussions with the
17 Assembly there may be some changes, but I can
18 support the bill, as 57 other Senators did last
19 year, once again this year.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, if
21 you would continue once again to continue to
22 yield.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
3709
1 Skelos.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do you think
3 it is fair that somebody who is found not to
4 have been properly the object or the subject of
5 an order of protection, that that person should
6 be forced to pay $25 even though the order is
7 found to have been given on totally false
8 testimony or affidavits?
9 SENATOR SKELOS: I think in the
10 end, the fact that the legal services that will
11 be provided to indigent women outweighs perhaps
12 that person having to pay $25.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam
14 President, if Senator Skelos will be good enough
15 to yield.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
17 Skelos, would you yield for another question?
18 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam
19 President.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, what
21 sort of collection system have you set up to -
22 to collect this $25? Where is the judgment
23 provided?
3710
1 SENATOR SKELOS: I suppose the
2 court collects the money.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, Senator,
4 with all due respect, if you will continue to
5 yield, how does the court collect money? You
6 don't wave a magic wand. Suppose Harry says,
7 "What are you talking about? I wasn't even in
8 the country at that time. I'm not going to pay
9 $25." How do you collect? Who goes out and
10 collects the $25?
11 SENATOR SKELOS: The judge would
12 issue an order. You pay -- you pay the $25
13 surcharge. If not, you would be held in
14 contempt.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
16 Leichter.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, I think
18 Senator Skelos will continue to yield.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
20 Skelos, will you continue to yield?
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Do you know
22 the costs that are involved in this sort of a
23 procedure? Do you know the burden that you're
3711
1 placing on the court to collect the $25 fee
2 which you admit shouldn't -- the person who's
3 being asked to pay the fee, in justice, should
4 not have to pay?
5 SENATOR SKELOS: I think in most
6 instances as you indicated that in your opinion
7 98 percent of the orders of protection that are
8 issued are valid, I think in most instances the
9 person would pay the $25 surcharge.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam
11 President, if Senator Skelos will yield.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
13 Skelos yields.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Probably to
15 the last question.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you very
17 much.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator,
19 doesn't it bother you that you have not taken
20 the time to write protections for that two
21 percent -- maybe you and I agree that two -- two
22 percent of the orders or five percent of the
23 orders are invalid -- wouldn't it be fairer to
3712
1 provide a way that, if it is found that the
2 order of protection was issued on false
3 testimony or false affidavits, that the money
4 should not be collected, it should be refunded;
5 is that so difficult?
6 SENATOR SKELOS: I feel very
7 comfortable in voting yes on this bill.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
9 Leichter, on the bill.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, you
11 know, Madam President, you know, I think we have
12 a certain obligation to put forward bills that
13 not only make good press releases or may make
14 sense conceptually, and conceptually I can see a
15 way to work out your bill that I would support.
16 I like the idea, but the -- and I'm sorry to say
17 this to you, Senator, sorry to say this to you,
18 but there's almost an arrogance, "Listen, I can
19 pass anything. I can write nonsense and I'll
20 get 31 votes," and, Senator, that's what it is.
21 I want to tell you, the previous
22 bill we passed that I voted for because I don't
23 want to make any big fuss, I think that is so
3713
1 inartfully drafted that I think it's
2 embarrassing. I'll just go over it, and the
3 reason I will, Senator, is because I think it
4 has bearing on this bill and the question of
5 what we're about and whether we're going to pass
6 serious legislation, whether we -- whether we
7 consider what we pass as having to -- to meet
8 certain standards of clarity.
9 A previous bill makes it
10 perfectly unclear whether, in order for somebody
11 to avail themselves of the hot line, they have
12 to be a victim who was -- who was involved in a
13 pending criminal proceeding, so you don't cover
14 an instance where a person may have been a
15 victim, may not be involved in a criminal
16 proceeding, may not have even been a criminal
17 proceeding. I don't know what that means.
18 I think it's things like that
19 that, before the bill is put on the floor, we
20 ought to try to -- we ought to see that they're
21 written in a sensible way, and I don't mean to
22 be critical of staffs, Senator, because I think
23 they do the best job, but I think before we put
3714
1 the bill out, I think we have the responsibility
2 to do more than say, Well, I'm comfortable with
3 it; let the Assembly make the necessary
4 corrections to it, and I think in this
5 particular instance, Senator, I think there's
6 glaring draft -- draftsman errors in this bill,
7 and I think not to cover when you easily could,
8 the case of an order of protection issued
9 against somebody who is found not to have done
10 anything wrong, and why make that person pay?
11 You say, Well, it's for a good cause. Then
12 maybe you ought to provide that everybody in the
13 state ought to pay $25 into a sort of a victims'
14 fund. That may be fine, because that's really
15 what you're doing, but if it is based that
16 somebody has done something wrong, then indeed
17 it ought to require a finding that that person
18 has done something wrong, and even then you -
19 you don't provide any means for collection to
20 make the collection proceed on the basis of an
21 order of contempt, which are very difficult to
22 enforce and expensive, rather than providing at
23 least for judgment so a judgment could be
3715
1 entered and then the marshal could very easily
2 enforce it.
3 I think these are errors that can
4 be corrected, but I think we so often find here
5 once you people put a bill on the floor, that is
6 sacred, it cannot be improved by anyone. All
7 the years I've been here, I doubt if ten times
8 somebody has withdrawn a bill when objections
9 were made on the basis of a technical error and
10 said, "O.K., you're right, I'll correct it."
11 So, Senator, we're not against
12 the concepts of the previous bill or this bill,
13 but I would be embarrassed -- I would be
14 embarrassed voting for a bill like that because
15 I think it is so inartfully and so unfairly
16 drawn.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
18 Montgomery, did you wish to speak on the bill?
19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Madam
20 President.
21 I wonder if the sponsor would
22 yield for a question.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
3716
1 Skelos, will you yield? Senator yields.
2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank
3 you, Senator Skelos.
4 Senator, I note that in 1995 your
5 bill passed 56 to 1, and I was the only one to
6 vote against it, and I just want to ask you I
7 guess a similar question to what I did before.
8 This bill only relates to domestic violence, or
9 does it relate to anybody against whom an order
10 of protection is issued?
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Domestic
12 violence.
13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Only to
14 domestic violence. Is there any reason that you
15 only for that -- that you only wanted to deal
16 with those kinds of -- those issues?
17 SENATOR SKELOS: The surcharge
18 applies to any order of protection. The money
19 goes into the Office of Prevention of Domestic
20 Violence to be used for legal services
21 concerning domestic violence charges.
22 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right,
23 Senator. That means then in an instance such as
3717
1 I've experienced recently where one of my
2 constituents, I had to get an order of
3 protection against that person -
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
5 I can't hear Senator Montgomery.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: We need a
7 little quiet in the chamber, please.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I have, up
9 until now, an order of protection because
10 someone was targeting me for an attack, and it
11 means then that that person has to pay the $25
12 surcharge and, if that is the case, that person
13 becomes even more aggravated and stands a chance
14 to wait for me outside my office when I'm
15 leaving late at night.
16 Is that -- is it fair to say that
17 that's a possibility since, you know, my office
18 is public, so I can't really keep people from
19 coming near there? The order of protection may
20 or may not be effective, but the person is
21 further aggravated based on this surcharge.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: If there's an
23 order of protection, you should pay a $25
3718
1 surcharge.
2 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So that
3 would be the case. Thank you, Senator Skelos.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
5 it's correct, you voted against the bill last
6 year, not Senator Leichter. I believe Senator
7 Leichter supported it last year.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
9 Montgomery, on the bill.
10 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you.
11 Madam President, just briefly on the bill.
12 As I had indicated when I voted
13 against the bill last year, to Senator Skelos
14 and I believe in committee as well, my concern
15 is that in domestic violence cases specifically,
16 and I believe in general, when one has to get an
17 order of protection, there is a serious conflict
18 that has existed and that is oftentimes
19 accompanied by a level of violence from one
20 person to another, and if now the individual has
21 to pay a surcharge, it seems to me it would
22 further aggravate the situation, and the -- the
23 person for whom the order is to protect then, it
3719
1 seems to me, becomes vulnerable to -- to the
2 attack and especially in light of the fact that
3 orders of protection generally are not really
4 and truly efficient in keeping another person
5 who really wants to harm someone from doing so.
6 So I'm just going to vote against
7 this, not because I am opposed to punishment for
8 people who engage in any form of domestic
9 violence as well as any other violence toward
10 another person, but I certainly would not want
11 to support legislation that I feel would really
12 aggravate a situation where this is the case, so
13 I'm going to vote no again this year.
14 Thank you, Madam President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator?
16 Read the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 11. This
18 act shall take effect on the 1st day of
19 November.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
3720
1 the negative on Calendar Number 393 are Senators
2 Gold, Leichter, Montgomery, Seabrook and
3 Waldon. Ayes 54, nays 5.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
5 is passed.
6 Senator Waldon, why do you rise?
7 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President,
8 I was called out of the chamber on business in
9 regard to my Senatorial District and failed to
10 be present when 296 was voted upon. I ask
11 unanimous consent to be recorded in the
12 negative.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Unanimous
14 consent to be recorded in the negative.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 450, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print Number
17 6316-A, an act to amend the Environmental
18 Conservation Law, in relation to permitting the
19 hunting of game on Sunday.
20 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH:
22 Explanation has been requested, Senator
23 Marcellino.
3721
1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Madam
2 President. This bill amends the Environmental
3 Conservation Law authorizing the hunting of game
4 on Sunday during the hunting season in the
5 Southern Tier, central and western regions of
6 the state of New York for three years from the
7 effective date of this chapter.
8 In other words, this is the last
9 bill that Bob Banister worked on and negotiated
10 the settlement and negotiated the agreement
11 between those who had some problems with it
12 earlier.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Are there
14 any further questions?
15 Senator Gold, why do you rise?
16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes. Senator,
17 would you yield to a question, please?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
19 Marcellino, would you yield?
20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Sure.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
22 will yield.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, just so I
3722
1 understand this. Right now we ban this activity
2 on Sunday, is that correct?
3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, in
4 those regions.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Do you know -
6 pardon me?
7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Those
8 regions cited in the bill only.
9 SENATOR GOLD: I see. So are
10 there any other regions that would be left out
11 now?
12 SENATOR MARCELLINO: No.
13 SENATOR GOLD: This would not be
14 statewide.
15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: This would
16 be uniformly -
17 SENATOR GOLD: Do you know why -
18 the legislative history why hunting was not
19 allowed on Sunday?
20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: It's my
21 understanding that this bill, the concept went
22 back to the "blue laws" and there was concern
23 for activities such as hunting and others, other
3723
1 things that were done on what would be
2 considered a Christian sabbath of Sunday.
3 However, as in the case of many
4 of the other issues under the "blue laws" we've
5 reconsidered them over time, and this particular
6 bill would only apply for a three-year period of
7 time and then at the end of which we can go back
8 to the old system, make it permanent or amend it
9 as necessary.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Madam President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
12 Gold.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Madam
14 President, on the bill.
15 I don't see any reason why, if
16 somebody wants to, they can't take a shot on
17 Sunday, and there also happen to be laws which
18 say you can't sell liquor on Sunday and somebody
19 may want to take a different kind of shot on a
20 Sunday, and I don't know why we can't get rid of
21 that law also.
22 There's a bill I have in, and
23 I've had it in for a couple years, which would
3724
1 allow Orthodox Jewish store owners who close on
2 Saturday and who service communities who do all
3 kinds of other business on Sunday to be
4 permitted to sell liquor on Sundays in those
5 communities, and I think that it's about time we
6 stop the discrimination that we have as regards
7 certain industries and certain groups in our
8 society.
9 You can go out throughout this
10 state. There isn't a mall that closes on
11 Sunday. There isn't a restaurant usually that
12 closes in most places. You can go to a movie,
13 do a million things, and I support your bill,
14 Senator, and I'd be very grateful if you would
15 tell Senator Bruno about your bill so he could
16 focus on it.
17 I know that Senator Skelos has
18 had many, many letters, I'm told, and petitions
19 in his district, and I've had them in mine,
20 where people just want to be treated the same as
21 anybody else. We respect Christianity; we
22 respect everybody, but we want the same respect
23 and, while I did not make my motion to discharge
3725
1 last week -- it wouldn't have made any
2 difference anyway the way your party votes -- I
3 do urge that Senator Goodman, who I'm also told
4 supports my bill and has it in his committee, be
5 allowed to let my bill out of committee.
6 I'm really tired of having bills
7 come through which allow things to happen on
8 Sunday because it's inconvenient for one person
9 or another and then we are told that this group
10 of Orthodox Jews cannot be granted relief by
11 this Legislature. I think the time has come to
12 stop that particular kind of discrimination.
13 Senator Marcellino, I respect
14 your bill, and I respect the people you're
15 trying to help. I'm not a hunter, but I respect
16 people who hunt and, if they want to hunt on a
17 Sunday, that's their business. I think your
18 party and for those in the Assembly who haven't
19 let out the bill, it applies to them also, it's
20 about time that the particular discrimination
21 that Senator Solomon, when he was here, fought
22 for, that Senator Kruger has been fighting for,
23 I've gotten support from Senator Lachman and
3726
1 others, Senator Stavisky, I can name a lot of
2 people. There's a discrimination here and it
3 ought to stop. My bill does that pure and
4 simple, and I would urge that the same fairness
5 that was given to your bill, the consideration
6 of your bill is given to my bill and, while it
7 doesn't affect a lot of people, the Orthodox
8 Jews who are affected by my bill are entitled to
9 relief.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
11 last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
13 act shall take effect immediately.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll. )
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 59.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
19 is passed.
20 Senator Skelos, why do you rise?
21 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an
22 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in the
23 Majority Conference Room.
3727
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Immediate
2 meeting of the Rules Committee in the Majority
3 Conference Room.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 614, by Senator Hoblock, Senate Print Number
6 2612-A, an act to amend the Penal Law, in
7 relation to increasing the penalties for sale of
8 controlled substances.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH:
11 Explanation has been requested. Senator
12 Hoblock.
13 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Madam
14 President, this bill amends the section 220 of
15 the Penal Law increasing the penalty for the
16 sale of a controlled substance within an area
17 defined as public housing or public housing
18 project.
19 What this legislation does, it
20 pretty much tracks the increase in the
21 legislation we passed for the sale of controlled
22 substances in and around schools and play
23 grounds.
3728
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
2 President, if Senator Hoblock would yield for a
3 question?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Yes,
5 Senator Hoblock.
6 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
8 Hoblock, we've had a number of pieces of
9 legislation that definitely offer a higher
10 penalty for certain types of crimes committed
11 against perhaps protected classes of people or
12 protected areas such as a playground, as you
13 pointed out, or a church or a synagogue, that
14 kind of thing. We've also had some pieces of
15 legislation which I thought just protected
16 geographic locations such as crimes on the
17 subway and, in this case, the sale of controlled
18 substances in public housing.
19 My initial question is, what
20 makes public housing so special as opposed to
21 any other area that the penalty should be higher
22 for the sale?
23 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, Senator
3729
1 Paterson, as we discussed last year, this
2 legislation came to me at the specific request
3 of public housing officials in this area who
4 were very concerned about what was happening,
5 and some of these drug dealers and others that
6 are in this illicit business taking advantage on
7 those folks that are living in these housing
8 projects, and felt that one effort to make it
9 more palatable and more enticing for those folks
10 that live there, that we try to rid that
11 particular community of these drug dealers.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
13 Madam President.
14 Senator Hoblock, I respect the
15 point of view of public housing officials in
16 this particular area. But before I even ask
17 you, how much of this area, what percentage of
18 the population, lives in public housing?
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: A
20 question, Senator Paterson?
21 SENATOR PATERSON: That's a
22 question.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: A
3730
1 question, Senator Hoblock.
2 SENATOR HOBLOCK: I'm not sure;
3 I'm not sure of that statistic.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
5 President, if Senator Hoblock will yield to
6 another question.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
8 Hoblock, will you yield to another question?
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
10 President, isn't it possible that this is an
11 institutional response? There aren't any
12 private housing officials. Yes, there is a
13 tremendous drug problem that may exist all
14 over. So what I'm saying, this may exist in
15 public housing, but I don't see why the penalty
16 should be any higher.
17 I think what the public officials
18 are saying to you, Senator, is we have a problem
19 with drugs, but I think if you talk to anybody
20 lives anywhere else, they're going to tell you
21 we have a problem with drugs; and so what I'm
22 saying is, I don't see the need to protect one
23 particular area geographically of a community,
3731
1 because a community is more than just a
2 geographic location. It's a relationship
3 between all of the different neighborhoods and
4 all of the different people that live within the
5 community.
6 What I'm suggesting is that this
7 bill is somewhat -- that this bill, in a sense,
8 favors a certain area over another simply
9 because there's an institution that manifests
10 the complaint, but that a perusal of the whole
11 neighborhood would demonstrate that there's no
12 need for the penalties to be any higher in a
13 specific area.
14 What there's a need for is
15 greater law enforcement with respect to
16 controlling drug trafficking and substance
17 abuse.
18 So my question is, why is public
19 housing more important than the other areas
20 other than the fact that the officials or the
21 agency complained?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
23 Hoblock.
3732
1 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, I think,
2 Senator Paterson, as I said before in relation
3 to -- this creates the identical provision that
4 we have for schools, playgrounds, and I think
5 that we should be extremely sensitive, not
6 overly protective of certain areas, particularly
7 where people live and people are together with
8 their families, that obviously we can't control
9 every inch of every territory, but I think that
10 when people go home and spend time with their
11 families they should have this added and extra
12 protection, and perhaps you might want to join
13 with us in sponsoring some legislation that
14 would increase the penalties for this particular
15 offense for everyone, and then we wouldn't have
16 this problem if, in fact, we can agree that we
17 should increase these offenses and make it a
18 much stronger message to anyone that deals in
19 this particular trade.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
21 Paterson, Senator Lachman has asked if you would
22 yield the floor for a question from your
23 colleague?
3733
1 SENATOR LACHMAN: Senator
2 Paterson, can you yield so I can extend your
3 line of reasoning and ask Senator Hoblock a
4 question in this area?
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Certainly,
6 Senator.
7 SENATOR LACHMAN: I'm aware of
8 the fact that schools have drug-free zones and
9 crime-free zones, but there is a distinction
10 between schools and housing, whether they're
11 public housing or private housing. The reason,
12 the rationale for the drug-free and crime-free
13 zones around the schools is that we as adults
14 are in loco parenti to children.
15 You don't have a similar
16 situation in terms of housing. Will the Senator
17 consider amending the Penal Law to extend the -
18 the penalty for the sale of controlled
19 substances not only in public housing but also
20 extend it to private housing? As Senator
21 Paterson has been saying, what is the
22 distinction between public housing and private
23 housing?
3734
1 The distinction between housing
2 of any sort and schools is a very wide
3 distinction. We are not in loco parenti to
4 residents of public housing or private housing,
5 and what is good for public housing should be
6 good for private housing.
7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: When you refer
8 to private housing, do you refer to apartment
9 houses?
10 SENATOR LACHMAN: Sure.
11 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, I think
12 maybe that's the next piece of legislation we
13 can entertain. We'll get that one done first,
14 and then we can bring that one. I agree.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
16 Waldon, did you wish to comment on the bill?
17 SENATOR WALDON: Yes, I had hoped
18 for an opportunity to ask the learned Senator
19 from Albany a question or two.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
21 Hoblock, do your yield?
22 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
3735
1 Senator yields.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Madam
3 President. Thank you, Senator.
4 Last year we discussed and
5 debated this bill and, at that time, excuse me,
6 I tried to raise to you my concerns in regard to
7 the composition, meaning the make-up of the
8 people who live in the projects. To cut to the
9 chase, I shared with you the information that
10 there are over 660,000 people in the project in
11 the city of New York, that they're overwhelm
12 ingly black and Latino, and that this bill, if
13 it were to become law in the state of New York,
14 would disparately impact those people?
15 I'm not condoning the sale of
16 drugs. My concern was and is now that, if we're
17 going to have such a bill, it should be applied
18 equally to everyone, the buyer and the seller,
19 the people who come to the projects, and I cited
20 at that time South Jamaica houses have license
21 plates from Connecticut, New Jersey, some of
22 them drive Mercedes-Benzes, "beamers" as my son
23 says, BMWs, Jaguars. People who live in South
3736
1 Jamaica houses cannot afford those cars, except
2 the "pusher man", and my concern was that if
3 this were to become law then people who may be
4 on the fringe of whatever this is would be
5 overwhelmingly disparately impacted. I want to
6 take this to another level at this time and I'll
7 get to the question if you will just bear with
8 me.
9 When you look at this along with
10 the Police and Public Protection Act, and when
11 you look at this proposal of yours along with
12 what I discussed some moments ago, Mr.
13 Schectman's report, and when you look at the
14 8,800 prison cells proposed by the Governor to
15 be built at a cost of $486 million, do we see
16 the "field of dreams" of Governor Pataki as the
17 prisons?
18 If you remember, in the film,
19 there was a poignant moment in the film "Field
20 of Dreams", when it was said, If you build it,
21 they will come. Do you see this as a
22 possibility that this Governor wants to build
23 prisons and that this bill you're proposing will
3737
1 compound the direction, the flow of people of
2 flesh towards the prisons?
3 I know that's a convoluted
4 question, but I beg you to try to answer it.
5 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, I'll try
6 the best way I can, Senator Waldon.
7 First of all, I don't remember
8 the conversation -- I do remember the
9 conversation we had last year along these same
10 lines. We're not dealing -- this legislation is
11 not dealing with -- I'm not dealing with the
12 residents of these projects, because you have
13 statistics on those that reside in New York
14 City. I'm not sure of the statistics up here in
15 this area, but I could tell you that one of the
16 -- one of the cities that asked for this
17 legislation here locally would have a population
18 totally different than you've described that's
19 in New York City, and as far as, you know, the
20 field -- your analysis of the "Field of Dreams"
21 and building it and they will come, I have to
22 tell you that I don't think we ought to be
23 driving our criminal laws and the sanctions that
3738
1 we provide based on whether or not we think
2 there ought to be prisons.
3 Certainly, as we strengthen these
4 laws, we're going to have to provide. We're
5 going to have to provide for that, but I guess
6 what you're asking me is to go to the other side
7 as the alternative and because we don't want to
8 have prisons, we don't want to build prisons,
9 therefore, we shouldn't have any strong laws. I
10 don't agree with that.
11 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President,
12 on the bill.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the
14 bill, Senator Waldon.
15 SENATOR WALDON: I want to thank
16 Senator Hoblock for his answer. I know that it
17 was candid and forthright.
18 I was not suggesting, Madam
19 President and my colleagues, that for those who
20 are violators of the law and especially in this
21 insidious activity of drug sales, that they
22 should not go to prison. What I am trying to
23 make as a point last year and this year and many
3739
1 times when I stand and beg your indulgence on
2 this floor, is that of how racism does have an
3 effect on the composition of the prisons in the
4 state of New York, and if we're going to have
5 law let's create laws which will ensure equity
6 in the prison population, meaning that those who
7 commit the crimes, let's make sure that all who
8 commit the crimes go to jail, and I was suggest
9 ing that the experience that we have seen in
10 South Jamaica and in areas like South Jamaica is
11 that the people who have the money to buy the
12 drugs aren't black, aren't from South Jamaica,
13 aren't from Far Rockaway, aren't from Bayview
14 Park, and they drive up in their sleek
15 automobiles, buy their what they call leisure
16 activity drugs and go away somewhere, but the
17 kids who are in that neighborhood when the crime
18 combat teams come through whether they're the
19 seller or not, often -- all too often are
20 arrested, and I'm suggesting that this bill if
21 it were to become law in this state would
22 compound that, and I was further suggesting that
23 we ought to be mindful of the direction that
3740
1 we're heading as a state and as a people in
2 regard to ensuring that these cells proposed by
3 Governor Pataki will be filled.
4 Unfortunately, if the way that
5 they're being filled now continues, most of the
6 people will continue to look just like me, will
7 come from areas where I grew up and sometimes go
8 now to represent my constituents and our
9 constituents, and I just think that we ought to
10 be better than that, and I guess what I'm really
11 hoping is that one of these days on this floor
12 I'm going to say something that will excite
13 intellectually everyone around here, and we'll
14 begin to focus on putting the money on the front
15 end where it's better spent, it's less costly,
16 it saves human lives, it saves pain and
17 suffering. We'll all be more secure in our
18 homes and in our persons, but this madness about
19 building of prison cells in such a proliferating
20 manner is not the way that I think we ought to
21 go.
22 I hope that one day we won't go
23 in that direction, and one day even the little
3741
1 children in South Jamaica, South Bronx, Bed-Stuy
2 will know that they're judged by the content of
3 their character because the school system has
4 made it possible for them to have character and
5 to be productive human beings and not that some
6 cop unfortunately will judge them only on the
7 basis of the color of their skin, and they will
8 become just another criminal justice statistic.
9 Thank you, Madam President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
11 you, Senator Waldon.
12 Senator Montgomery.
13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Madam
14 President. Would the sponsor answer a
15 question?
16 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
18 Hoblock yields for a question.
19 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank
20 you.
21 Senator Hoblock, could you
22 explain to me what is the difference in a person
23 who would be arrested under this law and a
3742
1 person who would be arrested under the law as it
2 currently exists outside of housing or in
3 housing?
4 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure. Let me
5 try to find it for you.
6 Right now, under Section 220 of
7 the Penal Law, various degrees of sale, criminal
8 sale of a controlled substance, they go from the
9 fourth degree right -- right on, and what this
10 legislation does, it amends Section 220 by
11 adding a subdivision 16 that defines "public
12 housing project" and creates a felony, I believe
13 it's a "C" felony, for sale of a controlled
14 substance.
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So it raises
16 it from a -- it raises an identical charge from
17 -- from say an "E" felony to a "C" or a "D" to
18 an "E" or -
19 SENATOR HOBLOCK: That's what I'm
20 tryin' to find for you, and I apologize, I don't
21 have that at the tip of my fingers. Well,
22 Section 22 has various degrees.
23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: O.K.
3743
1 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Raises each
2 one. For instance 220.34 has sale of a
3 controlled substance in the fourth agree which
4 is a Class C felony; 224.39 is a Class B felony
5 and so on, so there's four different degrees,
6 and what this does is it puts into the
7 definition of "controlled substance" when we're
8 talkin' about the sale of controlled substance,
9 public housing projects, so it increases the
10 various levels from, if it's a "C" now, it will
11 be a "B", and so on.
12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right.
13 Thank you. Now, Senator, if you would continue
14 to yield.
15 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure.
16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: For my
17 clarification. It's my understanding that under
18 current law you can get up to seven years in
19 prison for the possession of a vial of "crack",
20 is that -- is that correct? Is that your
21 understanding or -
22 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Possession?
23 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Possession,
3744
1 yes, or with the assumption to sell, whatever it
2 is.
3 SENATOR HOBLOCK: I don't know
4 that.
5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right.
6 Senator, if you would continue to yield.
7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Sure.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: The federal
9 Housing and Urban Development agency has begun
10 to enforce -- it's my understanding they intend
11 to enforce their own very strict law regarding
12 any activity, any criminal activity within
13 federal housing projects, that upon one
14 conviction or if there is evidence of a person's
15 being involved in criminal activity, they can be
16 evicted from a single incident or single
17 charge.
18 SENATOR HOBLOCK: This is federal
19 housing?
20 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: This is the
21 federal housing law which is now being
22 enforced. Apparently it's been on the books for
23 some time, but it's never been enforced. It's
3745
1 my understanding that that is going to be very
2 vigorously enforced now.
3 Will -- do you still see the need
4 for your legislation despite the fact that the
5 -- there is a new enforcement of this -- this
6 criminal code in housing?
7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yeah, I think
8 there's a -- there's a definite distinction
9 between the federal and the state laws as far as
10 the jurisdiction of the law enforcement
11 communities and the federal staffing, because
12 it's going to take federal people to incorporate
13 that into the federal system so, yeah, I do
14 think there should be a need for state law.
15 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right.
16 If you -- just one final question, Senator.
17 Madam President, if the Senator would continue
18 to yield. You have indicated that a group in
19 your own district came to you requesting that
20 such legislation be introduced. Is it not the
21 case that what those residents, as the residents
22 in my own district, complain and request the
23 ability to do is have a speedy eviction of
3746
1 people who are engaged in criminal activity so
2 that they are not -- they do not have to suffer
3 the consequences of this kind of activity in a
4 given building, that it's really the eviction,
5 that they want to get rid of the people who are
6 engaged in such activities?
7 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Well, it may
8 not necessarily be the people that are living
9 there, people that come on the premises as
10 well. They use that, such as one would try to
11 use a school ground because that's an enticing
12 audience in some cases.
13 As far as the -- the group of
14 individuals that initially requested this, it
15 came from -- from and through the people that
16 lived there because the request came to me in
17 the form of a resolution from the City Council
18 after a situation and set of circumstances had
19 been presented to this Council, and there was an
20 open forum in which this was discussed, and as a
21 result, City Council drafted a resolution
22 requesting that this be done. They felt it was
23 in their best interests and the proper way to
3747
1 handle this particular problem, not necessarily
2 because there were problems with the residents
3 in dealing with this issue but rather those that
4 were coming onto the property, because as the
5 legislation indicates, it's within a thousand
6 feet as well, so it's those that are coming onto
7 the premises, not even going into the building
8 perhaps, but coming onto the playgrounds,
9 perhaps the entranceways, parking lots and
10 whatever, and trying to entice those people that
11 live there.
12 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: O.K. Thank
13 you, Senator Hoblock.
14 Madam President, briefly on the
15 bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: On the
17 bill, Senator Montgomery.
18 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. There
19 -- the problem that Senator Hoblock is trying
20 to address is one that is not unique to his
21 district certainly, and not unique to mine, but
22 it is for certain a major problem as it relates
23 to public housing since there are such very
3748
1 large concentrations of people living together.
2 But I think, if I understand the problem from
3 the perspective of the residents who live in
4 public housing, they need to be able to, one,
5 control the kinds of people who are accepted
6 into housing, that there should be a higher
7 standard of behavior so that people having to
8 live so close together respect more definitively
9 each others' rights as neighbors and, two, that
10 we should not allow people who are engaged in
11 criminal activity to be able to continue to live
12 in a building or in a development without any
13 consequences for that activity, especially in
14 light of the fact that it attracts other
15 criminal elements, as well as it destroys the
16 quality of life of an entire development.
17 So I understand what people in
18 public housing want, and I think that I also
19 understand what Senator Hoblock is trying to
20 address, but this legislation simply adds a new
21 level of, or a -- it's -- it expands the net for
22 arresting people and charging them at a higher
23 level and, in fact, we know that a very large
3749
1 percentage of the people who are now
2 overcrowding the prisons and jails are in there
3 because of the Rockefeller drug laws and the
4 second felony laws that have been passed
5 subsequently.
6 So this will crowd the prisons,
7 crowd the jails for extended periods of time
8 without necessarily addressing the real problem
9 that the housing -- the residents of housing
10 authority developments throughout the state are
11 asking for.
12 I, too, support Senator Hoblock's
13 wish to give some relief to those residents, but
14 I certainly don't think that it's a wise idea
15 for us in the Legislature to -- to put forth
16 legislation which will ultimately cost the state
17 an enormous amount of money by increasing the
18 cost to us of longer prison sentences for these
19 individuals when there is obviously another more
20 efficient and more cost-effective measure to
21 take that would protect people in public
22 housing.
23 So I'm going to vote against
3750
1 this, not because I don't want to protect the
2 interests of people in public housing in Albany
3 as well as in Brooklyn, but because I think that
4 this is just not the way to go because it
5 doesn't really solve the problem.
6 Thank you.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
8 you, Senator.
9 Senator Abate, did you wish to
10 speak?
11 SENATOR ABATE: Yes, on the
12 bill.
13 I understand the sponsor's
14 intention and his -- or seemingly his concern
15 about the quality of life in public housing.
16 Why I oppose the bill is because I don't
17 understand the rationale for the bill. No one
18 is saying, either side of the aisle, that
19 punishment is not appropriate, sometimes
20 treatment and punishment. Treatment is a form
21 of punishment, but if you look at what's on the
22 books today, if someone is charged with a "D"
23 felony, the judge has seven years scope of
3751
1 punishment.
2 This bill is saying that if
3 someone is arrested for sale in a public housing
4 area that seven years is not enough. The judge
5 needs 15 years scope, and my understanding is
6 that someone now currently can be charged with a
7 "C" felony which the scope of punishment is 15
8 years, but that's not enough, and that person
9 should be charged with a "B" felony which means
10 it would raise the scope of punishment up to 25
11 years.
12 We do know that, whether it's 7
13 years, 15, 25 or under the Rockefeller drug laws
14 where offenders could be sentenced up to life,
15 we are not as a state soft on people who possess
16 or sell drugs. The proof of the pudding is for
17 the past, I guess 15 years at least, the
18 majority of people in prison are there for
19 drug-related crimes, either possessing or
20 selling drugs.
21 So I can't understand the
22 rationale or purpose. We're already punishing
23 severely people who possess and sell drugs.
3752
1 There is scope of punishment within the 7, 15,
2 or 25 to life sentence, for people to say, "I
3 don't like you selling near a home or a public
4 housing area. I'm not going to give you one and
5 a half to three, I'm going to give you two to
6 four or two and a half to five or three and a
7 half to seven." There's a huge range of
8 punishment that could take into consideration
9 some of the unique circumstances of the case.
10 There are many vulnerable people
11 in our society. There are many vulnerable and
12 poor people in our society. Where do you draw
13 the line? Should we now be extending sales of
14 drugs outside of senior citizen centers? They
15 are very vulnerable. They can be easily victim
16 ized.
17 So I don't understand the
18 rationale. I don't understand how this would
19 make that community safer, extending the
20 punishment from 15 to 25 years as a range of
21 sentence. I believe the sentences as they apply
22 now are sufficient on the books. Someone who's
23 a heavy trafficker can get life in prison, could
3753
1 get up to 25 years.
2 So I think we as a Legislature
3 have to be very careful when we pick apart
4 vulnerable communities, vulnerable segments of
5 our society, different kinds of constituency and
6 say, We're going to give more time to that
7 offender in that community as opposed to
8 another.
9 If we are -- if we were soft on
10 crime, if we weren't already punishing people
11 who sell drugs, I would say, Senator Hoblock,
12 it's needed. But this is not needed in terms of
13 deterrence. It's not needed in terms of
14 retribution or just desserts. These individuals
15 are going to jail and prison because we have a
16 second felony offender law. They can't walk
17 away from being punished or sentenced to prison,
18 so I don't think for all the public safety, I
19 don't see the effectiveness of this approach in
20 terms of deterrence or promoting public safety
21 in our housing projects and, for that reason,
22 until I can see a rationale to supporting this
23 legislation, I have to oppose it today.
3754
1 Thank you very much.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
3 last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
5 act shall take effect on the 1st day of
6 November.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
11 Leichter.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam
13 President, to explain my vote.
14 I think our criminal system and
15 our criminal laws are based on the nature of the
16 acts and very rarely upon where the act is
17 committed. I have difficulty understanding
18 that, well, you sell drugs across the street
19 from a housing project that will get a lesser
20 sentence than if you sell it on the same street
21 as the housing project. It just doesn't make
22 sense.
23 It's not going to reduce the sale
3755
1 of drugs. There's no studies that have shown
2 that these higher sentences applied in these
3 circumstances will actually work as an effective
4 deterrent. I think we're just making such a
5 mish-mash of the criminal law. We've had bills
6 here that, if you commit a crime, if you bop
7 somebody on the head in the subway it's more
8 serious than if you bop them on a bus or that,
9 if you hit somebody who's 65, it's more serious
10 than if you hit a child who's two years old.
11 I think Senator Abate said it
12 very well. Where's the rationale? Where's the
13 sense?
14 Madam President, I vote in the
15 negative.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
17 Leichter in the negative.
18 Announce the vote.
19 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
20 the negative on Calendar Number 614 are Senators
21 Abate, Leichter, Montgomery, Paterson, Santiago,
22 Seabrook and Waldon. Ayes 54, nays 7.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
3756
1 is passed.
2 Next item.
3 Senator Santiago, why do you
4 rise?
5 SENATOR SANTIAGO: Madam
6 President, I wish to state for the record that
7 legislative business kept me out of the chamber
8 yesterday when Senate Bill 474 and Senate Bill
9 668 were considered. I would -- and had I been
10 present, I would have voted in the negative on
11 both of these bills.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
13 record will so reflect, Senator Santiago.
14 Clerk shall read.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 708, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print Number
17 6227, an act to amend the Executive Law, in
18 relation to payments received as profit for a
19 crime.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam
21 President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
23 Leichter.
3757
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Will
2 Senator Nozzolio yield to some questions?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
4 Nozzolio, will you yield?
5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Madam
6 President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
8 will yield.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, as I
10 understand this bill, it seems to make two
11 changes in the "Son of Sam" Law. It provides
12 that where a contractor fails to notify the
13 crime victim board that a contract has been
14 entered into for consideration with someone who
15 committed a crime and the contract deals with
16 the substance of that crime or relates to that
17 crime, that a fine of $25,000 or 25 percent of
18 the proceeds, whichever is greater, can be
19 levied, is that correct?
20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Madam
21 President, that is correct.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: And then you
23 also provide that the notice that has to be
3758
1 given the crime victim board has to be
2 immediate, is that correct?
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Madam
4 President. The response must be upon receipt
5 entering -- immediate notification to the crime
6 victims board upon entering into that contract,
7 so upon execution, Senator, that notice must be
8 given.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
10 have problems with what it means to give
11 "immediate" notice but maybe you can satisfy my
12 uncertainties about that. What is "immediate",
13 Senator? A contract is entered into at 3:00
14 o'clock in the afternoon. Can you tell me by
15 when the notice has to be furnished to the crime
16 victims board?
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: It has to be
18 sent -- I would define "immediate", Senator, as
19 upon execution, so simultaneously upon executing
20 this contract -
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right.
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: -- notice
23 should be sent to the crime victims board that
3759
1 this business arrangement is established where
2 the perpetrator of the crime who is now behind
3 bars and that that criminal has just entered
4 into a financial arrangement with -
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
6 Nozzolio continue to yield?
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I'll
8 continue to yield.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Yes, he
10 will yield.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, a
12 contract is entered into at 3:00 o'clock but
13 notice is given the next morning at 10:00
14 o'clock. You would say the person or the
15 company that entered into that contract should
16 be subject to a 20 -- at least a $25,000 fine.
17 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Are you asking
18 me, Senator, what are the parameters for
19 notification?
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
21 asked you what "immediate" is, and you said
22 immediate in the terms of the example that I
23 gave is immediately upon execution of the
3760
1 contract. I gave you an example. You execute
2 the contract at 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon.
3 If you have send the notice the following
4 morning, you're telling me that you are subject
5 to a $25,000 fine and possibly more.
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'll let the
7 courts interpret the scope of immediacy,
8 Senator, but frankly, "immediate" was an entry
9 into this statute because right now, to put your
10 question into context, Senator, there is no time
11 frame established for notification. There is no
12 sanction when an individual enters into such
13 agreement and does not notify.
14 So, Senator, I think that the
15 tightened language of "immediate", it means
16 now. You can take Webster and define
17 "immediate" as well as I can, Senator. I
18 suggest you go ahead and do so.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam
20 President, first of all, Senator Nozzolio, let
21 me correct you.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator,
23 do you wish Senator to yield, Senator Nozzolio?
3761
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: If he will
2 yield for a series of questions.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: A series
4 of questions?
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes. Senator,
6 first of all, you're correct right now the
7 statute does not have a parameter, maybe not a
8 suitable parameter. It provides for as soon as
9 a payment or intended payment is a profit from a
10 crime, and you're correct there are no
11 sanctions.
12 I have no problem establishing
13 sanctions. I think maybe $25,000 is too high,
14 but my real problem is with the word
15 "immediate". Now, your initial reaction was,
16 Senator, "immediate" means you sign that
17 contract, you have the very next thing you do,
18 you have to give that notice and, if you give it
19 the following morning, that's not immediate.
20 Then I think you realize that's a
21 little harsh, if not outright absurd, to impose
22 this $25,000 fine. So you said, Well, let the
23 courts define it; but, Senator, isn't it our job
3762
1 in the first instance to write legislation that
2 says clearly what we want, and does it in a
3 reasonable manner?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
5 Nozzolio.
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'll try to
7 respond to Senator Leichter's speech. It -
8 Senator, the definition, "immediate", I did not
9 define it as you characterize my definition.
10 You put forth a scenario, a hypothetical that
11 said, Is the next morning immediate? I didn't
12 answer that question.
13 I believe, in my opinion, my
14 intention in putting this statute before us,
15 this change before us, is to tell those who are
16 engaged in business enterprise with convicted
17 criminals that they have a responsibility. That
18 responsibility should be, in my opinion, upon
19 execution of that contractual arrangement.
20 Execution means, I believe "immediate" is
21 appropriate in this case because it's telling
22 those who are engaging in conduct with criminals
23 that they have a responsibility to the victims
3763
1 of those crimes, that they have to notify the
2 crime victims board when they're engaging in
3 conduct with criminals.
4 I believe "immediate" is
5 appropriate. It's an appropriate statement. It
6 says that this Legislature doesn't want those
7 who are engaging with -- in money raising,
8 money-engaging activities with convicted
9 criminals that they should keep in mind that
10 there is a victim to this crime regardless of
11 how sensational and attractive the story may be
12 on the marketplace.
13 That word, Senator, is put there
14 for a reason. It sends, I believe, a really
15 clear signal. I'm not going to get mired in
16 your hypotheticals. Your hypotheticals,
17 frankly, are only used to obfuscate the
18 intention of this legislation which says "upon
19 immediate entry". "Immediate" means, as Webster
20 would define it, "right away", and "right away"
21 is what we think is the right way to engage in
22 this type of sanction.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
3764
1 Nozzolio, if you continue to yield.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
3 Nozzolio, will you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think the
5 example I gave you, Senator, and your response,
6 I thought, was very clear. You said that's
7 right, "immediate" means immediate. You got to
8 send it on the execution, which means if you
9 send it the following morning, you're subject to
10 a $25,000 fine.
11 Senator, may I make a suggestion
12 that's hard, I'm sure, to improve upon something
13 as much thought has been given to as you gave to
14 this bill and the care in drafting, and so on,
15 but may I suggest language, Senator, that would
16 guide the court that I think would accomplish
17 your purpose and wouldn't make us subject to
18 probably a lot of litigation as to what is
19 "immediate"?
20 Why not say it has to be sent
21 within five days, has to be sent if you want to,
22 within three days, has to be sent within seven
23 days. Certainly that's sufficient time to
3765
1 achieve the purpose. The purpose is very
2 simple. The purpose is that you don't want the
3 money to be paid out that would go to the person
4 who perpetrated the crime, and he would spend
5 the money before the crime victims board would
6 ever know. Clearly, three, five, seven days
7 provide that.
8 To put in the word "immediate",
9 Senator, frankly, if the contract was signed at
10 10:00 in the morning and you did it at 5:00
11 o'clock at night, under your definition that's
12 not immediate. So would you see anything wrong
13 with the language that I propose to you of
14 stating a specific time period?
15 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, that
16 doesn't seem to be unreasonable to me. Your
17 comments do not appear blatantly unreasonable,
18 but in the world of legislation in trying to
19 fashion a bill that will become law, we have to
20 have an identical measure passed in this house
21 that is passed in the other house, in the
22 Assembly, passed last month is a measure which
23 is sponsored by a number of Assemblymen, that
3766
1 uses the word "immediate". This measure has
2 already passed the Assembly, that I believe
3 certainly your comments are not out of line but
4 I am also concerned with getting this sanction
5 available to ensure the protection of our crime
6 victims and that as such, use the identical
7 language that was used in the measure that was
8 passed in the state Assembly.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam
10 President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
12 Leichter.
13 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
14 Nozzolio will continue to yield.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
16 Nozzolio, you continue -
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: If I
18 understood, as I understand the exact measure
19 has passed in the Assembly, how come there's no
20 substitution of the Assembly bill?
21 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I'm informed
22 that the measure relative to this language which
23 you question, Senator, the word "immediate" was
3767
1 used in the Assembly definition. That's why it
2 was transferred here. There are some minor
3 variations, some different language in other
4 aspects of the Assembly bill but those are -
5 the definition of "immediate" was to mirror that
6 substance -- substantive portion of the Assembly
7 measure.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam
9 President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
11 Nozzolio continue to yield?
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you will
13 continue to yield.
14 So, in other words, you're
15 telling us that it isn't as if we pass this bill
16 then we are ready to send a bill to the
17 Governor. We're going to have to revisit this
18 anyhow because there's differences between the
19 Assembly bill and the Senate bill and, while I'm
20 sure the Assembly was as careful as you were in
21 drafting your bill, I think the word
22 "immediate", I think creates a real problem and
23 I have difficulty with it particularly when the
3768
1 fine is so substantial.
2 Maybe $25,000 is -- is an
3 appropriate minimum fine, but then to leave any
4 uncertainty as to by what period of time that
5 notice is to be given seems to me unwise and
6 since you're going to have to write -- write a
7 new bill or write a bill that works out the
8 problems with the Assembly -
9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, we'll
10 take certainly your constructive criticism under
11 consideration. It's taken in good spirit, that
12 in further refining this measure that I
13 certainly will engage in conversation with the
14 Assembly to see if, as we clear up the
15 differences between these measures, if this
16 remains an issue, certainly your comments will
17 be duly noted.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Madam
19 President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
21 Leichter.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: On the bill.
23 Thank -
3769
1 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
2 Leichter, on the bill.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you very
4 much, Senator Nozzolio. I mean I don't think
5 this is a big deal except in this Legislature,
6 same problem in the Assembly and the Senate that
7 once a bill is put on the floor nobody ever
8 wants to change it even if the -- you know, as
9 Senator Nozzolio kindly said, the suggestion I
10 made is constructive.
11 The fact is that it is -- it is
12 blatantly unreasonable to say that somebody has
13 got to do something immediate without defining
14 it, but particularly if it carries with it as
15 heavy a penalty as $25,000. So I'm not going to
16 vote for this. I happen again to agree with the
17 concept. I think the statute as presently
18 worded could result and may have already
19 resulted in monies being paid to a perpetrator
20 of a crime who then decimates the funds and the
21 crime victim is denied the compensation which
22 the crime victim ought to get.
23 That makes good sense, and there
3770
1 ought to be some sort of sanction if you fail to
2 give notice. I absolutely agree with you. I
3 think 25,000 may seem to my mind really quite
4 severe, but then I think we have an obligation
5 to define clearly a reasonable period of time so
6 I'm going to vote against this until that
7 reasonable period is in a bill before us. I
8 hope we'll see it. I hope we will then be
9 dealing effectively with the problem and Senator
10 Gold, to whom we are grateful because he was, of
11 course, the author of the "Son of Sam" Law, I
12 don't know how he feels about it, but I consider
13 that a very significant statute, very important,
14 and I don't want to tinker and meddle with it in
15 a way that, frankly, is very inartful, so I'm
16 going to vote in the negative.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
18 Abate.
19 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. I'm firmly
20 in support of this bill. I think Senator
21 Leichter raises some issues about construction
22 and whether case law, in fact, defines the
23 "immediate", but the general spirit and intent
3771
1 of this legislation is so critical.
2 When I chaired the crime victims
3 board and we were dealing with "Son of Sam"
4 cases, time and time again the victim would come
5 and say, We now know of a contract and it was
6 not a contract that the crime victims board was
7 aware of because there was no teeth, there was
8 no penalty imposed upon a publisher or someone
9 else to notify the crime victims board of a
10 contract.
11 Finally, after ten years, and I
12 do compliment the leadership of Senator Nozzolio
13 on this bill, finally, there will be enough
14 remedy and teeth given to the crime victims
15 board so it gives some meaning to the law and so
16 that, in fact, restitution can be made to crime
17 victims.
18 Without the teeth, the law, the
19 modified "Son of Sam" Law is really meaning
20 less. So this is long overdue. It's an
21 important piece of legislation for crime
22 victims, and it deserves bipartisan support.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Thank
3772
1 you, Senator.
2 Read the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 60, nays
9 one, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
11 is passed.
12 Senator Marcellino, that
13 completes the reading of the controversial -
14 one more bill, I'm sorry.
15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: No, Madam
16 President. At this time, would you please
17 recognize Senator Larkin.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: I'm
19 sorry, one more page.
20 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Please
21 recognize Senator Larkin.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
23 Larkin.
3773
1 SENATOR LARKIN: Madam President,
2 yes. I was out of the chamber on Bill Number
3 688. Had I been in the chamber, I would have
4 voted yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
6 record will so reflect.
7 Secretary will read the last
8 bill.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senate Bill
10 Number 712, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Bill
11 6924, an act to amend the Penal Law to make
12 available to victims the proceeds of their
13 recoveries.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explanation.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH:
16 Explanation has been requested.
17 Senator Nozzolio.
18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you,
19 Madam President, my colleagues.
20 This afternoon this Legislature
21 has passed or will pass no less than a dozen
22 measures dealing with the rights of crime
23 victims. In this Crime Victims Week we have
3774
1 engaged in great debate, discussion, about
2 important measures dealing with ensuring the
3 rights of victims and making each further
4 insurance that their victimization is not
5 continued by the system.
6 The Justice Department reports
7 that Americans have incurred over $450 billion
8 worth of costs related to crime each year. This
9 is an unconscionable statistic, and I believe
10 that in New York we are taking -- have taken
11 great strides in doing much for the victims of
12 crime.
13 Under the leadership of the
14 Governor and the Attorney General, further with
15 the actions of this house, we have taken
16 enormous steps to advocate on behalf of those
17 citizens unfortunate enough to be victimized by
18 criminals.
19 This measure before us extends
20 that effort in trying to ensure that when an
21 inmate receives a financial award while
22 incarcerated, that that award becomes available
23 to those who have been victimized by the
3775
1 criminal in the first place.
2 When an inmate successfully sues
3 the state or a particular locality, the victim
4 of the crime will be compensated out of the cash
5 award of the inmate. Now, that's what the bill
6 before us does, and I urge its passage.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Madam
8 President, will the sponsor yield to a couple
9 quick questions?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
11 Nozzolio, would you yield to Senator Dollinger?
12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Certainly,
13 Madam President.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: First let me
15 say to my colleague from Monroe County, I think
16 its a great idea. It finally establishes a tie
17 between an inmate who nets a recovery from a
18 third-party claim into a benefit for victims. I
19 think it's good, I think I favor it, says that
20 if someone obtains proceeds afterward, that they
21 should disgorge those proceeds to the victim.
22 Let me ask you this question.
23 Why did you limit the bill solely to actions
3776
1 brought against government?
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: In most cases,
3 Senator, an inmate will sue the state of New
4 York, those who are incarcerated in the state
5 system. Often a local inmate will sue the
6 county, as you're familiar with, I'm sure, but
7 we wanted to limit it to those items because
8 that's, frankly, where most of the inmate
9 litigation is directed to.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Again
11 through you, Madam President, did you consider
12 the possibility that you would make it apply to
13 third-party claims, claims brought by an inmate,
14 for example, as I once brought one against a
15 manufacturer of a saw in an incarceration
16 facility, because they didn't provide a proper
17 guard?
18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Well, Senator,
19 that type of third-party litigation would be
20 appropriate.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K.
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: But I think it
23 certainly makes sense to me and that the only
3777
1 reason why it was not imported in this bill was
2 because we wanted to put this in law because
3 that's where the bulk of the litigation
4 occurred.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K. Through,
6 Madam President, one final question: If a bill
7 were proposed that said a third-party action
8 brought by an inmate shall be subject to
9 approval by a court, much like infant settle
10 ments are approved and that the victims would
11 have a lien against the proceeds of that claim
12 brought by the inmate and that the court would
13 have to notify the victims of the lien and the
14 opportunity to foreclose the lien or to file a
15 claim against that liened amount of the
16 proceeds, and if the court had to approve the
17 final settlement package, is that a bill you
18 could support, because I think it's an idea that
19 should be put before the Senate?
20 I think this bill goes part of
21 the way. I'd be prepared to draft the bill,
22 give it to you, you and I co-sponsor it, it
23 could come to this floor and we'd really do the
3778
1 job of tying inmate's claims proceeds, net
2 proceeds to inmates, to having an available
3 fund. Would you support that kind of a bill if
4 you and I worked together on it?
5 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, I
6 cannot tell you certainly whether I could
7 support it or not support it at this point until
8 I saw the measure but I think the concept is
9 certainly one that we're trying to achieve here
10 and is consistent with what our objectives are
11 and I would be glad to work with you
12 constructively on this measure as well as advise
13 as to the type of language that I believe would
14 be appropriate.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I appreciate
16 the chairman of the Crime and Corrections
17 Commission's candor. I agree that going that
18 next step and locking in third-party complaints
19 may only affect a handful of cases, but it would
20 give the perception that I think this bill
21 embodies, and I think is a good one that, if you
22 are incarcerated and if, for some reason, you're
23 injured and you suddenly have funds available a
3779
1 victim would be able to file a lien, have the
2 court approval, give notice, all of the
3 provisions are in here.
4 I think it's a good bill. I
5 think it ought to go a step further. I'm going
6 to draft a bill; I'll send to to you, Senator
7 Nozzolio, and hope it would have your support so
8 we could do that bill.
9 Thank you.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Read the
11 last section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect on the 1st day of
14 November.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Call the
16 roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll. )
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 61.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The bill
20 is passed.
21 Senator Marcellino, that
22 concludes the calendar.
23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
3780
1 President, may we return to reports of standing
2 committees for a Rules Committee report.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: The
4 Secretary shall read.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
6 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
7 following bill directly to third reading:
8 Senate Print 6901-A, by Senator
9 Maltese, an act to amend the Penal Law, in
10 relation to the crime of partial birth
11 abortions.
12 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Move to
13 accept the report of the Rules Committee.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: All those
15 in favor of accepting -
16 Senator Paterson.
17 SENATOR PATERSON: We oppose the
18 acceptance of that report, Madam President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Well, if
20 we need to debate, we'll debate and take a
21 vote.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
23 Madam President.
3781
1 It's very clear that Senator
2 Maltese has brought forth a piece of legislation
3 that is on the minds of all New Yorkers.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
5 Marcellino.
6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, just a
7 point of order. Just remind everybody that a
8 debate on a committee report is a half hour
9 debate, each side.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: We'll
11 proceed, Senator Paterson.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
13 Madam President.
14 The point is that this piece of
15 legislation that comes before the house is one
16 that has been addressed by the Cardinal; it has
17 been addressed in federal legislation vetoed by
18 the President, and it is certainly a very hotly
19 debated issue in this country.
20 For this piece of legislation to
21 come before the house as early as tomorrow
22 morning, in my opinion, would be all the more
23 reason not to bring it directly to Rules and
3782
1 bring it -- bring it to the active list today.
2 This is an issue for which I would be very clear
3 personally, I don't know how I'm going to vote
4 on it.
5 I'd like to learn more about it
6 and, therefore, that being the case, I don't
7 understand how we can do it at this particular
8 time. I'm not saying that it's out of order.
9 I'm just saying that it's imprudent and it
10 really is something that I thought we had
11 started to change right here in the Legislature
12 which is the procedure for which we address
13 issues of the day, issues that are of extreme
14 importance, issues that are of the highest value
15 to individuals.
16 The information that this piece
17 of legislation may come to the floor tomorrow
18 became available perhaps earlier this
19 afternoon. It doesn't do either the issue
20 justice. I don't think it gives the legislation
21 or the work of the sponsor any justice, and it
22 is the reason why we have the strong feeling
23 that we have on this -- in this particular
3783
1 situation.
2 All the time we report bills to
3 third reading on unanimous consent. We try to
4 cooperate, but this is a piece of legislation
5 that certainly will be the epicenter of the eyes
6 of all New York State residents as to how this
7 body dispenses with this prospective law, and
8 for us to just simply bring it to Rules this
9 afternoon in the middle of the session and then
10 bring it onto the floor tomorrow, in my opinion,
11 is actually anathema to what the credo of this
12 chamber should be, which is that we only would
13 divorce ourselves from the regular course of
14 business and conduct due to an emergency
15 situation, and I don't know what the emergency
16 is.
17 In fact, right now, I thought if
18 there was an emergency, it would be the fact
19 that we're about to approach a deadline in which
20 we haven't passed the budget of the state of New
21 York. That would be next Tuesday. This is
22 something that certainly may require public
23 scrutiny and on which the people may feel very
3784
1 strongly about, and I respect that feeling.
2 I especially respect it because
3 I'm not totally sure how I would vote on the
4 issue, and yet we are going to be here in this
5 chamber and cavalierly just take action on this
6 bill for whatever reason I don't know, and that
7 is the reason, Madam President, that I would
8 oppose the acceptance of the Rules report and
9 taking this piece of legislation up so
10 immediately and, in my opinion, so
11 irresponsibly.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT RATH: Senator
13 Gold.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Madam
15 president.
16 Madam President, I'm sorry that
17 Senator Skelos and Senator Velella and Senator
18 Maltese are not here. Perhaps they are in the
19 other room and will hear me and will come in
20 because -- I see Senator Skelos -- I certainly
21 don't like to talk about people or with people
22 when they're not here. It's a shame Senator
23 Velella isn't here. Maybe he'll come in.
3785
1 Senator Paterson, I don't know
2 how you can say you don't know why the bill is
3 here, and et cetera. It's obvious why it's
4 here. There has been no leadership from the
5 Governor on the budget, and there's got to be
6 press activity some place. Reporters need
7 something. They must be spoon-fed. So every
8 time the Governor gets in trouble with the
9 budget, he picks on judges or he'll put out a
10 crime bill which is probably extremist of some
11 of nature and, of course, this bill has the
12 magic of all the words in it, abortion. It's a
13 magic word for the press. That's why it's here
14 today.
15 I was talking to some people a
16 couple days ago. Say what you want to about
17 late budget, say what you want to about Mario
18 Cuomo. He called people to meetings; he tried.
19 Whether he was successful or not, he tried.
20 There were meetings. This Governor holds a
21 meeting every once in a while; he figures it's
22 too embarrassing now that he hasn't had a
23 meeting or his staff.
3786
1 Well, staff is meeting. That's
2 something people ought to think about when they
3 talk about term limits. There ought to be term
4 limits for staff. They're the ones that have
5 the power around here. Apparently it's not the
6 members, according to the Governor.
7 This bill got to Rules through an
8 act of the leader of the Codes Committee. It
9 was not voted by the committee. Is that
10 technically permitted under our rules? I think
11 it is. I thought, based upon conversations with
12 Senator Maltese at the meeting and, as I say, a
13 bill is so important to Senator Maltese -- he
14 was here a minute ago; I don't know why he
15 walked out. Senator Maltese was asked
16 questions, couldn't give answers that were
17 satisfactory to a lot of us and -- there he is
18 now; Senator Maltese is in the room.
19 The response to the questions
20 that were asked on the bill by Senator Velella,
21 who gets very offended when anybody asks a
22 question about anything is, This is
23 technicalities; it's a technicality. Well,
3787
1 that's what laws are for, technicalities. One
2 law reads one way, and one law reads another
3 way. That's a technicality. That's what we
4 discuss here.
5 I'm very, very sorry that the
6 Majority in this house feels that it is above
7 being questioned on anything because when you do
8 that, certainly my colleague from the Bronx gets
9 nasty about it and everything becomes
10 obstreperous and irresponsible because you have
11 questions.
12 Well, irresponsible is putting
13 forth a piece of legislation when your sponsor
14 can't even define it, and it's a criminal
15 statute.
16 I thought it was fascinating in
17 discussing this bill at the Rules Committee that
18 Senator Maltese's first position was that he
19 really didn't need a lot of reformations even
20 though it's a criminal statute because some of
21 the words are just so obvious that everybody
22 knows what they mean.
23 I pointed out that there was a
3788
1 letter from a Dr. Hale to Senator Dole in
2 Washington on a similar piece of legislation
3 where the letter, which I don't have right now,
4 indicated that the Congressional definitions had
5 no relationship to medical definitions.
6 Well, at that point, Senator
7 Maltese said, well, he was satisfied with the
8 definitions. Well, how are you satisfied with
9 non-existent definitions? And the answer is
10 he's satisfied to get the bill out here because
11 it's important to have the bill out here because
12 talking about the bill, maybe the press won't
13 talk about the lack of leadership of the
14 Governor in the budget process.
15 This bill is a very serious piece
16 of legislation which could do good or do harm,
17 and we ought to know what we're talking about.
18 Senator Maltese described the procedure which he
19 said he would like to stop in the state of New
20 York. Very gruesome procedure, and I said to
21 Senator Maltese, Senator, maybe that should be
22 stopped and what you're describing, if it's
23 happening to eight-month-old fetuses or seven
3789
1 month-old fetuses, maybe these things should be
2 stopped but, Senator, does your bill affect Roe
3 versus Wade? Does it mean any abortion?
4 Well, he said he didn't think so,
5 but there's nothing in the bill that says that.
6 As a matter of fact, while there is language in
7 the section of law which allows abortions in
8 certain situations, the language of this bill
9 says partial birth abortions shall not
10 constitute a justifiable abortional act.
11 Now, what is a partial birth
12 abortion, which this bill would bar? According
13 to the bill, it is defined and it's the only
14 definition, an abortion in which the person
15 performing the abortion partially vaginally
16 delivers a living fetus before killing the fetus
17 and completing the delivery.
18 Now, the procedure that Senator
19 Maltese described, and these were his words, was
20 that somebody inserts something into a woman,
21 hooks the head, suctions the head and kills this
22 fetus to make it easier to deliver. Well, if
23 that's the fact, it's not barred by this piece
3790
1 of legislation, so I said to Senator Maltese, At
2 least let's deal with it to get it right.
3 Suggestion couldn't be accepted.
4 I asked Senator Maltese what is,
5 in fact, a partially vaginally delivered living
6 fetus? I said, Well, is it a toe? I mean do you
7 have to get up to the ankle? What is it? That
8 really wasn't defined either, so I guess it
9 would be anything.
10 So I said to Senator Maltese, I
11 know of people who, in the abortion debate have
12 shown photographs, and I didn't say it with
13 Senator Maltese, but it happens all the time and
14 they will show you a fetus and they'll say,
15 Lookit, you want to kill this? This is a
16 human. This is only three weeks but, again,
17 already you can see this and you can see that.
18 So I said, Well, if you can see
19 this and you can see that, supposing after three
20 weeks, a fetus was taken out and somebody said,
21 Oh, my gosh, there's a beat there, and it dies,
22 is that covered by this bill? If it is, it
23 certainly interferes with Roe v. Wade. It
3791
1 certainly interferes with a woman and her
2 doctor; but none of this is answered.
3 Now, the memo that goes with the
4 bill says that partial birth abortions are often
5 used in the second trimester, abortions from 20
6 to 24 weeks, et cetera, et cetera, but there's
7 nothing in the bill that talks about 20, 24
8 weeks. There's nothing in the bill that talks
9 about an abortion in the second week, third
10 week. It just is left open, and what I said to
11 Senator Maltese is, Senator, for the sake of
12 argument, if you had a prosecution, if this was
13 the law and you had a prosecution under this
14 bill, would you want it to be a defense where
15 somebody did this to a seven and a half-month
16 old fetus, did exactly what you said? Would you
17 want it to be a defense that the -- that the
18 killing, as you describe it, took place before
19 the foot came out and not after the foot came
20 out? Would you want it to be the defense that it
21 wasn't defined properly? Would you want the
22 person that did this to get away with it? I
23 wouldn't, and the answer is the bill's going to
3792
1 come out. The definitions are fine. I'm
2 satisfied with the definitions.
3 I said in committee, and I'll
4 repeat it on the floor because now we have a
5 record, there was a very beloved colleague of
6 ours named James Donovan, whom I didn't agree
7 with on the overall issue of abortion at that
8 time, but I don't think there was a member of
9 this chamber that didn't love that man and
10 respect him for his dedication to an issue, and
11 there were times when he voted differently than
12 a party line because he would see it as a back
13 doorway to perhaps convince people how deeply
14 this issue was important, so, for example, he
15 was terrific when it came to providing money for
16 welfare parents to support their children
17 because I once said, Yes, it's all right to have
18 them born and then you want to kill them, and he
19 said, No, Senator, let the children be born and
20 we'll support them. I think he was a great
21 man.
22 I have always believed that
23 Senator Serphin Maltese, who I am happy being on
3793
1 different political ends of the spectrum with,
2 is as sincere on this issue as anybody, and I
3 have never questioned his sincerity on the
4 issue. As a matter of fact, during the Rules
5 Committee debate, I didn't even say he was wrong
6 on the issue. It never came up, so in terms of
7 the rather glib comments of my colleague from
8 the Bronx about politicizing the issue, we
9 weren't even getting into the issue. We were
10 pointing out that the bill is no good the way
11 it's written.
12 There are people in this chamber
13 on both sides of this aisle that do not like the
14 procedure that is trying to be barred. It's not
15 a Democratic/Republican issue, certainly is
16 not. As a matter of fact, I even wonder whether
17 it's a Conservative/Liberal issue. It's an
18 issue of human beings and the way they see a
19 particular situation, how they see relationships
20 between women and their doctors. So it
21 shouldn't be politicized.
22 But one thing is very, very
23 clear. My distinguished colleague, Senator
3794
1 Dollinger, I think was too generous last week.
2 I do believe that there are times in committees
3 when some of the Republican chairs do allow par
4 ticipation but, Senator Dollinger, you were too
5 generous. You were, and I say it again, you
6 were too generous.
7 When it comes to the politics of
8 this place, there is no yielding to intellect on
9 the part of the other side. This bill had to
10 come out because the Governor needs cover. It's
11 easy, he needs cover, and this makes better
12 press than some other things as far as the
13 Governor is concerned.
14 So assuming that the Republicans
15 vote to sustain the Rules report, we will have a
16 debate tomorrow and Senator Maltese, unable to
17 control the fact that he's honest, will give
18 honest answers and he will tell you that there
19 are no legal definitions for some of the phrases
20 in this bill and you will hear in the course of
21 that debate that this is a flawed bill. And
22 will we vote on it? You can take that to the
23 bank, we'll vote on it.
3795
1 Why? Well, look, we're getting
2 the process started. We can always talk to the
3 Assembly. We can always amend, we can do this,
4 we can do that, we should have, we could have,
5 we could have, we would have, but there will be
6 a vote because that will be a story. A bill is
7 passed in the New York State Senate similar to
8 the Congressional bill but with a little bit of
9 language that the President said he would sign
10 it for, and the next thing we know that's the
11 story and the Governor gets to breathe a little
12 easier for a few more days on the budget.
13 I just think it's unfortunate.
14 Senator Maltese, in discussing that huge word
15 "abortion" like everything else, you have your
16 extremes and there were extremes which I could
17 never bring you to, and there are extremes you
18 could never bring me to, and then as you pass
19 along from those extremes you get into
20 situations where people of good will can perhaps
21 agree that this may or may not be going too far
22 and that may or may not be going too far.
23 This may be one of those areas,
3796
1 Senator, where everybody or people from
2 different parts of the spectrum could draw a
3 bill that perhaps stops a practice that we think
4 goes too far and yet leaves women their dignity,
5 the right to their bodies and does not affect
6 socially the effects of Roe v. Wade.
7 I would have hoped, Senator, that
8 we would have done that in this case. The bill
9 was in the Codes Committee. In the hierarchy of
10 the Senate, the Codes Committee is considered
11 pretty significant in terms of what we, over a
12 drink, talk about, our best committees, our
13 biggest committees, and everybody agrees -- not
14 to quote me on this -- the chairman of Codes is
15 one of our best chairmen, certainly one of the
16 fairest. There is no better place for this bill
17 than to be in the Codes Committee, discussed as
18 other bills are discussed in the Codes Committee
19 and perhaps put into shape so that whether we
20 agree with it or don't agree with it, we can be
21 proud that that's at least the work product of
22 the New York State Senate.
23 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr.
3797
1 President.
2 SENATOR GOLD: No, I won't yield
3 right now.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
5 Hoffmann, why do you rise?
6 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Wondered if
7 Senator Gold would yield to a brief question.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
9 Gold, would you yield to Senator Hoffmann.
10 SENATOR GOLD: In a moment.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
12 Gold has declined to yield.
13 SENATOR GOLD: The last point I
14 made is the language, and I made this point in
15 Rules. At appropriate times in New York State
16 we have been a leader and at appropriate times
17 we have been a follower. We have been a leader
18 in the crime victims field. I believe we were
19 one of the first, if not the first state, to
20 have a crime victims compensation law. I had
21 the honor of drafting that law.
22 We also were a follower when two
23 years ago we passed a bill that we were asked
3798
1 about by people in the state of California where
2 we mandated the teaching of a Holocaust in our
3 schools. But whether we are leaders -- whether
4 we are leaders or followers, the fact is that we
5 in New York draw our laws differently than other
6 places.
7 Congress, to its lack of credit
8 as far as I'm concerned, draws laws which you
9 need 50 lawyers to interpret each paragraph. I
10 don't know how they ever do that stuff. In
11 California, they use different kinds of language
12 and put it together in different kinds of ways.
13 I don't care whether this bill
14 was taken word for word from Congress or not.
15 In my opinion, the way we draw laws in New York
16 we define terms particularly in criminal
17 statutes and we like to be in a situation where
18 our laws are a little tighter, a little more
19 explicit, specifically in the area of criminal
20 law.
21 That is what the debate in Rules
22 was all about. Nobody was questioning the
23 motives, certainly not of Senator Maltese or
3799
1 Senator Farley or some of the other sponsors of
2 the bill. The motivation of the individuals who
3 want to see this as a law was not questioned nor
4 did we get into the merits.
5 We did get into the issue as to
6 whether or not this work product should be
7 rushed by the aborting of our normal committee
8 system to be brought to the floor.
9 I think it's a mistake. I think
10 we do not do the issue justice, and I think that
11 the issue deserves a just and fair hearing and,
12 in my opinion, the way you get a fair hearing is
13 to revoke or not revoke but to reject this
14 committee report and urge the Rules Committee to
15 send it back to Codes where it can be properly
16 worked on.
17 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
19 Connor, on the motion to accept the Rules
20 Committee report.
21 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
22 President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Excuse
3800
1 me, Senator Hoffmann. Why do you rise?
2 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I had
3 requested Senator Gold to yield for a question.
4 I was under the impression that he would yield
5 for a question in a moment and I had a brief
6 question for clarification.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
8 Gold, ready to yield at this time?
9 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I would.
10 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator Gold, I
11 wanted to make sure I understood you correctly
12 since I have not seen this measure, since I did
13 not sit on the committee which has apparently
14 just attempted to report it to the floor.
15 Did I understand you to say
16 correctly -- did I understand you correctly to
17 say that this bill as reported by someone and
18 perhaps you can clarify that for me as well, is
19 purported to express specific differences
20 between the President of the United States and
21 the Congress of the United States?
22 SENATOR GOLD: What I said,
23 Senator -- I'm glad you asked -- I am told it
3801
1 was stated at the committee meeting that the
2 bill that the Congress sent to the President was
3 vetoed by the President because it didn't take
4 into consideration the health of the mother and
5 it was stated at the committee meeting that
6 starting with line 20, that there is language in
7 here which they believe would satisfy the
8 President if it was submitted to him. That's
9 what my reference meant.
10 SENATOR HOFFMANN: And if Senator
11 Gold would continue to yield for a further point
12 of clarification, Mr. President. I assume
13 Senator Gold will continue to yield.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
15 Gold, will you yield?
16 SENATOR GOLD: Yes.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
18 Gold yields to Senator Hoffmann.
19 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you.
20 Could you tell me who it was that stated to
21 whatever members of this committee that they
22 believe they understand the President of the
23 United State's objections and have addressed
3802
1 them in this bill before the New York State
2 Senate?
3 SENATOR GOLD: I really don't
4 remember who made the comment.
5 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr.
6 President. Thank you, Senator Gold.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
8 Connor, on the motion to accept the Rules
9 Committee report.
10 Senator Connor.
11 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
12 President. Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Once again we stand here and it
14 seems we hear an echo and the echo transcends
15 this bill. It's about process and it's about
16 process as it upholds the integrity of this
17 institution. No matter what you feel about this
18 bill or this issue or related issues, it's
19 certainly been an area of contention, an area
20 that concerns the public, and an area where
21 there are many people who would like to be heard
22 and an area where much information will be
23 helpful.
3803
1 Senator Maltese, I spoke to
2 Senator Bruno 45 minutes ago. I asked him why
3 this was being done in such a hurry. His
4 reaction was we have the votes, we're just going
5 to do it tomorrow before all these pro-choice
6 people come around.
7 That's a wonderful way to run the
8 Senate. The fact of the matter is, Senator
9 Maltese, I don't think you really have an
10 accurate idea of what members, particularly on
11 this side of the aisle, think about this bill
12 and think about the situation it purports to
13 address.
14 I've read the same popular
15 accounts, non-medical, non-scientific, press
16 accounts, about the so-called "partial birth
17 abortion". My initial reaction to that is I'd
18 vote for a bill to ban that procedure that was
19 consistent with Roe v. Wade. When I first read
20 this bill this afternoon, when I heard and was
21 shocked some three hours ago that there might be
22 an attempt to move it in less than 12 or 14
23 hours, I read the bill. I had different staff
3804
1 talking at me. I said, Whoa! I don't know that
2 this is a pro-choice or pro-life issue, and I
3 walked out on the floor. Session was just
4 beginning and I cadged a number of members, some
5 you know, naturally some members weren't here -
6 I didn't see everybody -- to get a feel.
7 I found at least a half a dozen
8 other so-called pro-choice members and, as I
9 say, I didn't talk to more than six or seven
10 people who had questions about this, who were
11 inclined to support a ban on what has been
12 presented in the popular medium as a so-called
13 "partial birth abortion"; and, as you
14 understand and I hope it's clear, the issue of
15 choice, abortion, so on, has never been a
16 partisan issue.
17 There are people on your side of
18 the aisle who disagree with you, Senator
19 Maltese. There are people on this side of the
20 aisle who disagree with each other and with you
21 and it really saddens me to see this partisan
22 rush as if somehow or other, points will be
23 scored, headlines will be made. It will somehow
3805
1 have some play on the presidential election
2 because I tell you, and I quote to you what
3 Senator Bruno told me an hour ago: Well, gee,
4 in Congress some of the most liberal Democrats
5 like Kennedy and Gephardt voted for this.
6 This is not a partisan issue, and
7 the questions that were being asked in committee
8 were not necessarily from the standpoint of
9 we're against this bill or we're for this bill.
10 There are questions, and I left this floor and
11 almost had my mind made up about this bill and
12 then I talked to some people who brought out
13 some other facts. I said, Gee, I didn't know
14 that, I didn't know that.
15 We say, Well, how can we talk to
16 members? How can we get these facts out? And I
17 said, you know, I wish Senator Maltese really
18 cared about this because I, you know, if I had
19 to lean, Senator, I'm still leaning toward a
20 bill like this, like this that addresses other
21 concerns. You know, why don't you have a
22 hearing Friday? Why don't we hear from everybody
23 on this? I'd like to hear some medical testimony
3806
1 because of what I talked to a couple people with
2 better medical knowledge than me and they say
3 they can't find these terms. These aren't terms
4 of medical usage.
5 Now, Senator Maltese, you can say
6 Aah, we all know what it means. I mean does it
7 mean what I read in some newspaper account a few
8 weeks ago when I decided, Gee, that shouldn't be
9 done, or does it mean other things? I'd like to
10 hear them, but I can't, I'm not going to have
11 any expert medical advice conveyed to me in the
12 next -- Senator Bruno, I think, said he wants to
13 start at ten tomorrow. Let's hurry up -- in the
14 next so many hours, and I think, frankly,
15 Senator Maltese and the only thing Senator Bruno
16 said, Oh, this is the bill, Senator Maltese
17 changed it. This is the bill that would meet
18 the President's definition, protect the mother's
19 health.
20 So I read through it and I see it
21 protects the mother's life but it doesn't
22 mention health, and I have said and I wrote, you
23 know, it doesn't mention "health", so yeah,
3807
1 yeah, there's been some changes. It meets the
2 President. The President would have signed this
3 bill. Well, I don't see the word "health".
4 So what's the rush? If you're
5 serious about addressing that real situation we
6 read about, if it be real, if it really happens
7 and you know what, if it doesn't happen, it
8 shouldn't happen, and I'll support you in making
9 sure it doesn't happen, but as long as you meet
10 the requirements of Roe v. Wade about the first
11 24 weeks of pregnancy. You know, let's pass a
12 constitutional law that bans the problem you
13 address. Let's not ban problems that don't
14 exist or things we can't do.
15 Roe v. Wade ties our hands in
16 those first 24 weeks. It's not clear that your
17 bill, you say it in your bill, this bans a
18 certain procedure in the last trimester. I'll
19 support that. In fact, under existing New York
20 law, I believe abortion is not legal except
21 under severe limitations in that last
22 trimester. I support that present law. Don't
23 see me filing any bills saying, let's make it
3808
1 legal up until the eighth or ninth month. You
2 don't see any members over here doing that.
3 If this is other than a political
4 campaign slogan for the Dole campaign, let's
5 have the Rules Committee consider it tomorrow
6 morning. Let's discuss the kind of amendments
7 I'm talking about, put it out and debate it next
8 Monday or Tuesday in the ordinary course. Let's
9 solicit some opinion. Senator Maltese, you
10 address for me that Roe v. Wade problem. You
11 limit this bill to the last trimester. You
12 protect the mother's physical health as well as
13 her life. You conform this to what the experts
14 say is the real situation, and you got me. You
15 got a lot of other people, I think. But we want
16 time to hear all the facts. We want to know
17 this is a legitimate legislative effort to
18 address either a real or a perceived problem
19 that meets constitutional requirements, that
20 protects the relationship between a woman and
21 her physician in those first six months of preg
22 nancy, that protects a woman's health and life
23 in the third trimester, and then I think people
3809
1 could perhaps agree on this.
2 I don't think, incidentally, and
3 I haven't had time to explore it but from what
4 I've heard in the last hour that there really
5 are such situations as have been described in
6 the popular literature if you give us some time
7 to think about it.
8 Senator, this is the Senate of
9 the state of New York. This once -- once
10 sincere people on both sides of the aisle have,
11 all of us, stood and talked about this as they
12 used to use the phrase and I heard Jerry Bloom
13 use it and I heard John Caemmerer use it and
14 they would talk about this and Bill Conklin, and
15 talk about this as the greatest deliberative
16 body in the world.
17 What a joke that's become when we
18 don't deliberate. What a joke that is when we
19 don't reason together. What a joke that is when
20 we don't have time to think or get information
21 or to let the public have any input on a very
22 important issue. What a joke it is when we cut
23 each other off for partisan reasons from
3810
1 reasoning together and perhaps producing a bill,
2 if there be a problem because I don't think
3 people -- I've talked to some of whom are pro
4 choice have any different visceral reaction than
5 some of the members over there who described
6 themselves as otherwise.
7 But let's have a bill, let's have
8 a real bill. This rush for a headline so people
9 don't focus on the budget that the Governor
10 ought to be leading us into. This rush, gee,
11 anything for a headline, a couple days ago the
12 Governor was on the front page going to lead the
13 pro-choice charge, whatever that means, your
14 Governor, Senator Maltese, your Governor was
15 going to do that.
16 I wish he were leading the "get a
17 budget" charge this week, but that's partisan
18 bickering. This is if you put out a political
19 campaign slogan as a bill on 14 or 15, 16 hours
20 notice, then you're going to get a political
21 campaign slogan response. You're going to get a
22 vote that way. If you want real legislation,
23 Senator Maltese, sit down and talk to people.
3811
1 Slow up, not for a month, slow up for a few
2 days. Let this once again be, if not the
3 greatest deliberative body in the country, at
4 least let it be a fairly moderate deliberative
5 body, and I would urge, and without getting into
6 this bill, I would ask every member certainly on
7 this side but every member respect the
8 institution and on the procedural vote, please
9 vote not to accept this report.
10 Let the Codes Committee hold
11 hearings, let the people be heard. Let members
12 have time to reason together.
13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr.
14 President.
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
16 President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: It's
18 the ruling of the Chair that, pursuant to Rule
19 Number VII, Section 2, the time on the motion to
20 debate has elapsed. We will take up the vote on
21 the motion to accept the Rules report.
22 SENATOR GOLD: Excuse me.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd like to
3812
1 be -
2 (Senator Hoffmann, Senator
3 Leichter, Senator Skelos talking over;
4 unintelligible.)
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
6 President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
8 Hoffmann, why do you rise?
9 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I'd like to
10 appeal the ruling of the Chair. I'd like to
11 have the clock checked. I'd like to have the
12 sorcerer impeached. I don't know, I think there
13 are a whole lot of things we should do in this
14 medieval institution. I think there are a
15 number of appropriate steps to bringing
16 democracy back. I'll think of a few more if you
17 give me a couple of minutes.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Thank
19 you, Senator Hoffmann.
20 SENATOR HOFFMANN: You're most
21 welcome, Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
23 ruling of the Chair is that the debate pursuant
3813
1 to the ruling at that time has elapsed;
2 therefore, we will take a vote on the motion.
3 All those in favor of accepting the Rules
4 Committee report?
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Appeal on the
6 ruling of the Chair. I heard Senator Hoffmann
7 say that she was appealing your ruling, Mr.
8 President.
9 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I'm appealing
10 the ruling of the Chair, Mr. President, to close
11 debate on this issue.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
13 question is on the -
14 SENATOR HOFFMANN: There is more
15 debate by members of the house. I respectfully
16 request the appeal overruling the Chair relative
17 to the time constraints.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
19 question is on the appeal of the ruling of the
20 Chair. All those in favor -
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Slow roll
22 call.
23 SENATOR ESPADA: Slow roll call.
3814
1 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: There's
2 been a request for a slow roll. Do I see five
3 members standing?
4 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I believe we
5 will have a slow roll call. Then perhaps the
6 Majority would like to reconsider and -
7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Are
8 there five members standing?
9 SENATOR SMITH: Oh!
10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call
11 the roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Slow
14 roll was requested. There are five members
15 standing. Secretary will call the roll.
16 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Mr.
17 President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
19 Secretary will call the slow roll call. A vote
20 of "Aye" is to sustain the ruling of the Chair.
21 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President,
22 just so I understand what the issue is that
23 we're voting on. Is it the Minority's
3815
1 contention that 29 minutes have passed in debate
2 or that it was less than 30 minutes that passed
3 in debate?
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Point of
5 order, Mr. President.
6 SENATOR VELELLA: I don't know
7 what we're voting on.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm not sure
9 I do either but -
10 SENATOR HOFFMANN: I would -
11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
12 Hoffmann, you're not recognized.
13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Am I
14 recognized, Mr. President?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: You are
16 not, Senator Hoffmann.
17 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Since I was
18 asking a question.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: And you
20 were not recognized, Senator. Thank you.
21 SENATOR VELELLA: Address the
22 chair.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
3816
1 Senator, if we may, we are calling a slow roll
2 on the motion to appeal the decision of the
3 Chair, made by Senator Hoffmann. A vote "Aye"
4 is in sustaining the Chair. A "Nay" vote
5 rejects the Chair.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Point of
7 order, Mr. Chairman.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Let's
9 try it again.
10 O.K. We're going to call the roll
11 on a motion to appeal the ruling of the Chair
12 which is to close debate, correct.
13 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr.
14 President, for recognizing my motion.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: All
16 right. Call the roll.
17 Senator Alesi.
18 SENATOR ALESI: Point of in
19 formation. Would you please reiterate your
20 position on the voting procedure, please?
21 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Yes.
22 This is on a motion to appeal. A "Yes" vote
23 sustains the appeal and overrules the Chair.
3817
1 (Pause) A "Yes" vote sustains the ruling of the
2 Chair. A "No" vote overrules the Chair. Call
3 the roll.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
5 (There was no response. )
6 Senator Alesi.
7 SENATOR ALESI: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
9 Alesi.
10 SENATOR ALESI: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
12 (There was no response. )
13 Senator Bruno.
14 (Affirmative indication. )
15 THE SECRETARY: Aye.
16 Senator Connor.
17 SENATOR CONNOR: No.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook.
19 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator
21 DeFrancisco.
22 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
3818
1 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator
3 Dollinger.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my
5 vote, Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
7 Dollinger, to explain his vote.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
9 President, it seems to me that when several
10 members of this house have not had an
11 opportunity to be heard within the time limit
12 every other time that I think we've had this
13 debate, there's been an agreement by the
14 Majority members, on Senator Padavan's
15 immigration bills, certainly on the death
16 penalty bills, when there has been heated debate
17 about an issue that members have strong opinions
18 on. We have relented and allowed additional
19 time for debate.
20 Today, at least Senator Hoffmann,
21 and I don't know her opinion on this bill but
22 it's certainly one that should be heard, and the
23 opinion on the issue of accepting the Rules
3819
1 Committee report; Senator Leichter stood and
2 asked to be heard on whether or not we should
3 accept the Rules Committee report. I would like
4 to be heard on the issue of whether we accept
5 the Rules Committee report, and I think it's
6 unconscionable that this house won't allow that
7 time to debate. You're putting a muzzle on the
8 debate.
9 It's not fair. It's not right
10 and, frankly, with all due respect to my leader,
11 Senator Connor, he is one of those who has
12 preached at me as, frankly, has Senator Marino,
13 Senator Bruno, Senator Skelos -- in fact, I
14 think every member of this house who sits in the
15 Republican house, has preached to me on the
16 importance of respecting the rules of this
17 house.
18 Well, we all know what this is.
19 This isn't a cheap publicity stunt to get this
20 bill before us. It's just a very expensive
21 publicity stunt. We're not doing it right.
22 We're not even listening to the debate about
23 accepting the Rules Committee report and it
3820
1 seems to me it's a travesty.
2 I tell everyone in this chamber
3 don't lecture me about putting politics over
4 rules next time.
5 Vote no.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
7 Dollinger, how do you vote? No? Continue the
8 roll.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
10 SENATOR ESPADA: No.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
12 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
14 SENATOR GOLD: No.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Gonzalez.
17 (There was no response. )
18 Senator Goodman.
19 (There was no response. )
20 Senator Hannon.
21 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock.
23 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes.
3821
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann.
2 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Explain my
3 vote.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
5 Hoffmann, to explain her vote.
6 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Yes, Mr.
7 President.
8 It was one week ago today that I
9 stood on this floor and asked my colleagues to
10 release from committee a number of bills that I
11 felt were urgent to reform our legislative
12 process, and I listened while a number of my
13 colleagues across the aisle stated that they
14 would vote no on a procedural matter. They were
15 voting against allowing bills to come to the
16 floor for a vote.
17 I find myself in a somewhat
18 ironic situation today casting a similar vote on
19 a procedural matter. I do not want to allow a
20 measure to come to the floor of this august
21 chamber in such a reprehensible way. Of course,
22 I will vote no against allowing a bill as
23 significant as one which deals theoretically
3822
1 with the health of every young woman of child
2 bearing age of this state to be rushed to this
3 floor, to be rushed to this chamber with a
4 threat that we'll be forced to vote on it in
5 less than 24 hours time without even the
6 courtesy of an advance notice, much less a
7 public hearing and outside opinions.
8 The outrage -- the outrage in
9 this chamber today that women's health and
10 reproductive activities would be trivialized as
11 some kind of a subterfuge, some kind of a royal
12 display of fantasy to prevent people of this
13 state from realizing that we can't get our heads
14 together to come up with a budget, that we would
15 present ourselves to the public or the crafters
16 of this bill and the people who have sent it
17 through the Codes Committee claiming that they
18 have a greater body of knowledge than the United
19 States Congress and the President of the United
20 States who have not yet been able to come to
21 terms with this issue despite the fact that they
22 have debated it openly and publicly and held
23 hearings on it.
3823
1 This is a subject of enormous and
2 intense discussion in Washington. It has not
3 been the subject of any open meetings or public
4 hearings, committee meetings in this chamber to
5 my knowledge. We're supposed to be working on
6 the New York State budget in this chamber, not
7 bringing issues before this body based on
8 headline journalism, not based upon newspaper
9 stories.
10 I listened to my colleagues
11 across the aisle saying that they didn't want to
12 pander to newspapers last week. That's what you
13 accused me of. I'm so sorry that you didn't
14 take your own words to heart. What could be
15 more base than throwing out a bill of this
16 magnitude without at least giving us the
17 courtesy of knowing in advance that the health
18 and safety and reproductive activities of every
19 woman in this state can be played second fiddle
20 to virtually anything and thrown up as some kind
21 of a camouflage when we can't put a budget
22 together?
23 This is a disgrace. Of course, I
3824
1 will vote no in closing debate.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
3 Continue the roll.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland.
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
7 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
9 SENATOR KRUGER: No.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
11 (There was no response. )
12 Senator Lachman.
13 SENATOR LACHMAN: No.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
15 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
17 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
19 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
21 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator
23 Leichter.
3825
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
2 to explain my vote.
3 I'm sorry we're shutting off
4 debate in this fashion. Part of the steam
5 roller tactics of the Majority. I wanted to ask
6 Senator Maltese why a bill that was introduced
7 April 9th was amended, I assume a week ago or a
8 few days ago, and whose effective date is the -
9 in November, has to be rushed to the floor and I
10 can only surmise what his answer would be and I
11 know you, Senator Maltese, to be a very honest
12 person is, Well, it's politics time. This is a
13 good time for us to move this sort of a bill;
14 and I would have wanted to ask Senator Volker,
15 chairman of the Codes Committee that I've served
16 on for many years and for whom I have great
17 fondness, great admiration. "Dale," I would
18 say, "how come this bill wasn't considered by
19 the Codes Committee? You considered death
20 penalty, you've considered every bill. We've
21 discussed it, all of these bills, in very fair
22 fashion," and I guess his answer would be,
23 "Franz, it was out of my hands, this bill was
3826
1 pulled out of the committee," and it's clear
2 that's what has happened, and to politicize this
3 issue in such a fashion, I think does a disgrace
4 to the position that you hold, Senator Maltese,
5 that I disagree with strongly, but I have the
6 greatest respect because I know it comes from a
7 very firm and strong moral grounds of beliefs.
8 But not to -- and we've had
9 debates before and we've had some wonderful
10 members that are no longer with us, Senator
11 Donovan and Senator Caemmerer, and we've had
12 heated debates on this but we debated. We
13 deliberated. This is so momentous; this is so
14 important, and to rush it out to the floor in
15 this fashion when the bill doesn't become
16 effective until next November. Why? Why?
17 There is only one reason. Politics.
18 I vote no.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
20 Continue the roll.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
22 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
3827
1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
3 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Marcellino.
6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
8 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator
10 Markowitz.
11 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz.
13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
15 SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Montgomery.
18 (There was no response. )
19 Senator Nanula.
20 (There was no response. )
21 Senator Nozzolio.
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
3828
1 SENATOR ONORATO: No.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator
3 Oppenheimer.
4 (There was no response. )
5 Senator Padavan.
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Paterson.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: No.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
11 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
13 SENATOR RATH: Aye.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
15 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Santiago.
18 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator
20 Seabrook.
21 SENATOR SEABROOK: No.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears.
23 SENATOR SEARS: Yes.
3829
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
2 (There was no response. )
3 Senator Skelos.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
7 Smith to explain her vote.
8 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President,
9 I'm just amazed that my colleagues across the
10 aisle who profess to have family values would
11 hold the women of the state of New York in such
12 contempt that they would rush to bring a bill to
13 the floor which affects the lives of each and
14 every woman of child-bearing age.
15 I just can't imagine that they
16 would care so little about the majority of the
17 people of the state of New York. Therefore, Mr.
18 President, I definitely vote in the negative
19 because I hold the women of the state of New
20 York in high esteem, and I feel that we have to
21 take the time to be able to study this bill and
22 to have some hearings before each of us are
23 required to make a vote of this importance.
3830
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
2 SENATOR SPANO: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator
4 Stachowski.
5 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: No.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Stafford.
8 SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator
10 Stavisky.
11 SENATOR STAVISKY: Explain my
12 vote, Mr. President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
14 Stavisky, to explain his vote.
15 SENATOR STAVISKY: The desire to
16 be fair and open with the public is evidenced by
17 the fact that even the press which ordinarily
18 covers proceedings of the Legislature and the
19 executive branches of government is not in this
20 chamber because of the awareness that this is an
21 unfair closed shop where there is no opportunity
22 for rational discussion among people who may
23 disagree but who have an obligation to listen to
3831
1 each other.
2 See the consequences of what
3 we're doing today. Look at the gallery. You'll
4 see the public, notified of what we're about to
5 do here in this chamber. There is not a single
6 person in the gallery on that side of the
7 aisle. Is that an accident, or is it a
8 deliberate desire to obfuscate the tragedy that
9 is occurring here in this chamber? And it is a
10 tragedy that transcends the issue. It is a
11 tragedy that reflects discredit on this house.
12 Not a single person is in the gallery above that
13 side of the aisle, and I guess I would need a
14 periscope to be able to see whether there's
15 anyone sitting in the gallery on this side.
16 But that's an indication of how
17 anxious the sponsors of this flawed proposal
18 were to have the public informed and involved.
19 What will you say to the people throughout the
20 state of New York when they ask, Well, why
21 didn't you tell us? Why didn't you give us a
22 chance to be heard? Why didn't you give us a
23 chance to talk to you before you made this
3832
1 decision?
2 Again, look to the gallery. Look
3 to the empty benches and reflect as to why you
4 should be voting no on this motion regarding the
5 ruling of the Chair and why you should reflect
6 more carefully on what is being done in a manner
7 that is the antithesis of democracy.
8 I vote no.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo.
10 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
12 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
14 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
16 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
18 (Negative indication. )
19 THE SECRETARY: No.
20 Senator Wright.
21 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call
23 the absentees.
3833
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
2 SENATOR ABATE: No.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
4 (There was no response. )
5 Senator Gonzalez.
6 (There was no response. )
7 Senator Goodman.
8 (There was no response. )
9 Senator Kuhl.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Montgomery.
12 (There was no response. )
13 Senator Nanula.
14 (There was no response. )
15 Senator Oppenheimer.
16 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Mr.
17 President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
19 Oppenheimer, to explain her vote.
20 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: This is
21 really very sad and tragic for the women of New
22 York State that we are held in such low esteem
23 that the time for input cannot be found. It's
3834
1 also, I think, tragic for New York State
2 Senate. I think there is a process which we all
3 wish we could have followed here, a time for
4 serious debate, a time for thoughtful
5 discussion.
6 I think it discredits us, and I
7 think it says very little to the women of this
8 state, and I really don't know why we can't have
9 that thoughtful debate. It's a very complex
10 issue, and it's trying to be handled in a knee
11 jerk reaction manner, and it just does a great
12 deal of disservice to women, to doctors in this
13 state, to nurses. There's a lot of opinion on
14 this, important opinion, and I think we should
15 be hearing it.
16 I vote no.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
18 (There was no response. )
19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
20 Results.
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34, nays
22 20.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
3835
1 ruling of the Chair is sustained.
2 On the motion to accept the Rules
3 Committee report.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
5 President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
7 Paterson, why do you rise?
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
9 a point of order, 34 ayes and 20 nays?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: That's
11 correct.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
13 if I remember correctly Senator Hoffmann's
14 motion was not to review the ruling of the
15 Chair. Senator Hoffmann's motion was to appeal
16 the ruling of the Chair. In other words, her
17 motion was to change the ruling of the Chair and
18 so regardless of anyone's intent in here, just
19 so that we do preserve some kind of sanity, we
20 had 17 motions to discharge here last week, the
21 motion in favor was recorded by a vote of yes.
22 I'm just contending that just for
23 the record, that this vote is wrong, that in
3836
1 advertently the appeal of the Chair -- of the
2 Chair won because those were the yes votes, 34
3 in favor of the motion.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
5 Paterson, I declared that a vote of "Yes" was to
6 sustain the decision of the Chair. There were
7 34 affirmative votes to sustain the decision of
8 the Chair. Therefore, I have ruled that the
9 decision is sustained and we are now on the
10 motion.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Point of
12 order, Mr. President. I understand what your
13 direction was to the body, and I am certainly
14 not trying to change the intention of any member
15 here, but just so that we have clarity in this
16 chamber since we don't seem to have clarity on
17 very much right now, I'm just informing you that
18 this -- that you ruled on a motion, in my
19 opinion, incorrectly because the motion was made
20 and the affirmative vote for the motion would
21 have been recorded as "yes" and if someone can
22 explain to me how that's otherwise, how it could
23 have been otherwise, I certainly would
3837
1 appreciate knowing that because we're going to
2 have other motions in this chamber.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
4 motion before the house is to accept the Rules
5 Committee report. All those in favor of
6 accepting the Rules Committee report.
7 SENATOR SMITH: Slow roll call.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call
9 the roll. There's a request for a slow roll.
10 There are five members standing. On the motion
11 to accept the Rules Committee report, there will
12 be a slow roll; clerk will call the roll.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
14 SENATOR ABATE: No.
15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Wait a
16 minute!
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi.
18 SENATOR ALESI: Yes.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
20 (There was no response. )
21 Senator Bruno.
22 (Affirmative indication. )
23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes.
3838
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
2 (Negative indication. )
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook.
4 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
6 Cook, to explain your vote.
7 SENATOR COOK: Had I been a
8 member of the Rules Committee, I might have made
9 a decision based on the merits of this bill
10 because that's the appropriate function of the
11 Rules Committee or of any other committee
12 considering the bill. However, the question
13 before us is whether the Rules Committee has the
14 power to report a bill to the floor, and if we
15 deny that precedent then we deny -- then we set
16 a precedent for all kinds of other issues that
17 may come before the Legislature over a period of
18 the rest of the year and into the future.
19 So I think it ought to be clear
20 that this is a procedural motion once again on
21 the question of whether the bill ought to be
22 referred to the floor, and I think that clearly
23 the rules of the house say that the Rules
3839
1 Committee had that power. They've acted within
2 their powers and, therefore, I'm voting yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
4 Cook in the affirmative.
5 Continue the roll.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 DeFrancisco.
8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Mr.
9 President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
11 DeFrancisco to explain his vote.
12 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: We've heard
13 a lot of dialogue today, some of it louder than
14 I've heard in the four years that I've been
15 here, but the fact of the matter is I'd just
16 like to state a couple of facts that I think are
17 relevant in this vote.
18 Number one, the vote has nothing
19 to do with disrespect for women and, if the
20 decision is political, as some on the other side
21 of the aisle have suggested, I would suggest
22 that maybe some of their comments might have
23 been political as well.
3840
1 But most importantly, this bill
2 has been in print in the "A" version since April
3 9, 1996, presumably it's been in print before
4 the "A" version came out. So if anyone wanted
5 to determine what bill may come forward in the
6 future, they certainly had ample opportunity to
7 do this.
8 In addition, this is not a bill
9 or an idea that is a new idea. There's been
10 debate in Congress. The issue is not a new
11 issue, so to suggest that someone could not
12 possibly determine their decision by tomorrow
13 after full debate, especially when the bill is a
14 matter of 29 lines, I think is a little bit
15 overstating the case. So I vote yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
17 DeFrancisco in the affirmative.
18 Continue the roll call.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
20 SENATOR DiCARLO: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator
22 Dollinger.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my
3841
1 vote.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
3 Dollinger, to explain his vote.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
5 President, I just disagree slightly with Senator
6 Cook. Senator Cook said that the only issue
7 that was present here was whether the Rules
8 Committee has the power to report to the floor.
9 Well, it's obvious that they don't have the
10 power because this body has the ability to
11 accept it or reject it. That's what this vote
12 is all about. They may have the power to
13 recommend to this body that it accept it, but
14 this body has the power to decide under the
15 circumstances of any particular issue, any Rules
16 Committee report, to decide whether it's in the
17 best exercise of discretion of this body to
18 accept that report.
19 I argued before that it wasn't in
20 the best interests of this body or in the best
21 interests of the legislation that we do this.
22 This is an issue that needs hearings. This is
23 an issue that needs time and, frankly, with all
3842
1 due respect to Senator DeFrancisco, you talk
2 about the politics of this.
3 I'll tell you what the politics
4 of this is. Several of my colleagues suggested
5 it's designed to protect George Pataki. I'm not
6 going to comment on that. I know why it's being
7 done. Where's the urgency of it being done?
8 None of the people who support this bill have to
9 put up with the telephone calls. None of the
10 people who support this bill want to put up with
11 the FAX machines. None of the people who
12 support this want people to come in and explain
13 why they chose to have this enormously -
14 enormously difficult, painful, anguishing
15 procedure. That's why you don't want to do it.
16 You don't want to listen to the people you
17 represent and the people of this state tell you
18 why it's a good idea. It's just like it's 4:00
19 o'clock in the morning on the 15th of June or
20 the 4th of July. You're doing it under the
21 cover of night. You're doing it under the
22 pressure of some unknown time pressure simply to
23 avoid something you find distasteful, people
3843
1 calling you on the phone and telling you you're
2 wrong.
3 No!
4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
5 Dollinger in the negative.
6 Continue the roll.
7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
8 President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
10 Marcellino, why do you rise?
11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: May I have
12 unanimous consent to call Senator Spano out of
13 order?
14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Without
15 objection, Senator Spano should be called.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
17 SENATOR SPANO: Aye.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
19 Spano is recorded in the affirmative.
20 Continue the roll.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
22 SENATOR ESPADA: No.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
3844
1 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, to
4 explain my vote.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
6 Gold to explain his vote.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Senator
8 DeFrancisco, as you know, in front of your desk
9 and behind your desk are these lovely red books
10 and I heard your comments about the bill being
11 introduced on the 9th.
12 First of all, I may be mistaken
13 but I believe that that date never changes even
14 when you amend bills, so I think it was first
15 introduced on the 9th, but having said what you
16 said, I'm sure you're familiar with Senate Bill
17 6953 that was authored by Senator Espada on the
18 Vehicle and Traffic Law because, after all, that
19 was on the 11th, and I'm sure you've read that
20 bill.
21 Also Senator Velella had a bill
22 6954 introduced on that same day dealing with
23 prohibition of discrimination against foreign
3845
1 travel, I'm sure you read that and, of course,
2 you didn't and I didn't either, Senator, because
3 we don't read bills just because they're
4 introduced. That's why we have a committee
5 system, and that's why we have a First Report
6 and a Second Report and a Third Report, so it's
7 noted only to us Senator but also to the world,
8 there are lobbying organizations that want to be
9 heard and would never file memos on every single
10 bill, but they find out what is being
11 considered.
12 Our rules provide for
13 extraordinary circumstances and we can, in fact,
14 have the Rules Committee offer a report. Nobody
15 is saying that that's out of order. We're
16 saying that in our collective judgment we should
17 not accept the report.
18 Senator Cook, that doesn't
19 destroy the system. It only says that in this
20 particular one instance there is a better
21 alternative.
22 Lastly, I would like to say to
23 Senator DeFrancisco that I recognize this as a,
3846
1 quote, legitimate issue. The problem is that we
2 do not vote on issues. We never did. You can
3 not stand up and say vote me "yes" or vote me
4 "no" on the issue. We vote on a specific piece
5 of paper and that's where the problem lies.
6 Senator Connor, when he was
7 talking earlier, could only speak for himself,
8 and I can only speak for myself. But I agree
9 with him. If there was a bill that stopped a
10 procedure that is unconscionable, I would vote
11 for it and I want to tell you something, you're
12 going to have a chance tomorrow to make that
13 decision because if Senator Maltese doesn't want
14 to improve his bill, maybe we'll have to do that
15 and now we'll have some interesting votes
16 tomorrow. You can see whether or not you want
17 to support this bill if it, in fact, bans the
18 Roe v. Wade situation and takes it out of this
19 bill.
20 Let's see tomorrow whether or not
21 you would vote for this bill if it makes it
22 clear that it's supposed to do what it says it
23 does. That's the issue and we believe in voting
3847
1 no for accepting this report, that Senator
2 Volker's leadership on the Codes Committee could
3 lead us to a better bill that I would be
4 delighted to vote for, and others would be
5 delighted to vote for because this, I believe,
6 is one of those issues which does not polarize
7 people on the issue of abortion or no, but can
8 bring people together to say that something is
9 wrong.
10 I don't know why Senator Maltese
11 doesn't accept that opportunity, because it will
12 be very interesting. Senator Maltese could run
13 for reelection and say, "I was able in the issue
14 of abortion to do a bill which brought everybody
15 together." I think that's pretty strong stuff.
16 I vote no.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
18 Gold is recorded in the negative.
19 Continue the roll call.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator
21 Gonzalez.
22 (There was no response. )
23 Senator Goodman.
3848
1 (There was no response. )
2 Senator Hannon.
3 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock.
5 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Hoffmann.
8 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Explain my
9 vote.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
11 Hoffmann, to explain her vote.
12 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you, Mr.
13 President.
14 I, too, find it a little
15 startling to here it suggested that simply
16 because a bill has appeared in print dealing
17 with a unique health matter that we should all
18 be so thoroughly versed and ready to vote on it
19 that we can do so on literally momentary
20 knowledge. It insults our intelligence and it
21 makes a mockery of the already difficult to
22 comprehend procedures of this chamber.
23 Once again, I'm going to vote no
3849
1 on what has become a travesty in this chamber, a
2 procedure it's clear that, for whatever reason,
3 the Majority in this house has chosen to
4 manipulate this process for some purpose that
5 makes light of the fact that we are late for the
6 budget, that we are not, in fact, deliberating
7 on the budget as we should be, but that we are
8 bringing up a health matter of most urgent,
9 urgent consequences and not bringing it through
10 the Health Committee, not allowing it to be
11 heard in public hearings and not even allowing
12 the members of this house to debate on whether
13 it is germane to our activities and whether we
14 should, in fact, include it on our calendar for
15 a vote as early as tomorrow morning.
16 Of course, I will vote no on this
17 procedural matter but I will continue to implore
18 upon the Majority Leader of this house to
19 exercise sounder judgment, to be the leader that
20 he was last year when he held the first Finance
21 Committee meeting ever in which we sat and
22 discussed the differences between the budget
23 proposal from this chamber and the budget
3850
1 proposal from the Assembly. It was a start. It
2 may have been a modest start, but it actually
3 showed the beginnings of some discussion, some
4 negotiation.
5 This is the same chamber that
6 sent several members to a conference committee
7 just a few days ago and again yesterday or this
8 morning, excuse me, to discuss the differences
9 between two -- the two houses' bills on small
10 city school budgets.
11 We have on occasion demonstrated
12 that we are willing to work like adults, that we
13 are willing to put aside partisan differences
14 and differences between the chambers to deal
15 with the issues of this state. That's what we
16 should be doing with our budget.
17 What we should not be doing is
18 injecting critical health issues, ones that they
19 cannot resolve in Washington and then purport to
20 send them to the floor having second-guessed the
21 President of the United States himself and
22 saying that everyone in this chamber will be
23 suddenly forced to vote on it tomorrow morning.
3851
1 An absolute travesty of our responsibilities as
2 legislators.
3 I vote no against any measure
4 coming to this chamber for a vote under these
5 matters tomorrow.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
7 Hoffmann is recorded in the negative.
8 Continue the roll call.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland.
10 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
12 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
14 SENATOR KRUGER: No.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
16 (There was no response. )
17 Senator Lachman.
18 SENATOR LACHMAN: No.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
20 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
22 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
3852
1 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
3 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Leichter.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
7 to explain my vote.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Chair
9 recognizes Senator Leichter to explain his
10 vote.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: What we're
12 seeing here are bully-boy tactics that defame
13 this house, make a mockery of the committee
14 system, that, frankly, defile a very important
15 issue, the issue of health, an issue that
16 affects women in this state, an issue that
17 people have great moral differences of opinion
18 on, but not to allow this to come after going
19 through the regular process and permitting the
20 people of this state to be heard, allowing
21 doctors to testify, allowing religious leaders
22 to testify, allowing women to testify on it,
23 that's what we should be doing.
3853
1 Why are we rushing this in a
2 fashion that will deny the people of this state
3 an opportunity on really one of the most
4 important issues, to have proper deliberative
5 considerate judgment? This is a bill that goes
6 into effect in November. Why bring it out
7 without committee hearing on a Tuesday and push
8 it to a vote on Wednesday?
9 I think it's disgraceful, and I
10 think you show that this house has no regard for
11 process. The only thing that counts with you is
12 politics and sheer raw power.
13 Mr. President, I vote no.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
15 Leichter is recorded in the negative.
16 Continue the roll.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
18 (There was no response. )
19 Senator Libous.
20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
22 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
3854
1 Marcellino.
2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
4 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator
6 Markowitz.
7 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz.
9 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
11 SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator
13 Montgomery.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
15 Montgomery to explain her vote.
16 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
17 President. I'm voting no on this procedural
18 matter and had I been in the chamber on the last
19 vote, I would have voted no because I think we
20 should have had more debate, more time to
21 debate, and so I'm voting no on this one, and I
22 would have voted no on the last one.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
3855
1 Montgomery is recorded in the negative.
2 Continue the roll call.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
4 (There was no response. )
5 Senator Nozzolio.
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
8 SENATOR ONORATO: No.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator
10 Oppenheimer.
11 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator
15 Paterson.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
18 Paterson to explain his vote.
19 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
20 President.
21 I'm happy that not too many
22 members of the Majority got up to support the
23 actions that occurred today because I think any
3856
1 further explanation that would try to justify
2 this would be sort of like having fruit of the
3 poisonous tree.
4 I think it's very clear to every
5 one that this action showed absolutely no
6 fairness and a complete disregard for the
7 process. I was happy that Senator Hoffmann
8 pointed out that anybody could come to a view
9 about an issue within 12 hours but that, as
10 legislators, 12 hours is not enough time to be
11 making a decision even if a bill leads 29
12 lives.
13 We would like the opportunity to
14 hear other people's points of view, read mail on
15 the subject, make phone calls, get back FAXes of
16 positions that different groups have taken about
17 this situation. Also just sitting here in the
18 chamber, I've heard a great deal of discussion
19 about this bill and a great deal of disagreement
20 not based on how it should be voted, but just
21 basically on what the bill says.
22 And so, finally, Mr. President, I
23 think that the report of the Rules Committee
3857
1 which is what we're voting on is not something
2 that is precedental. It is something in which
3 we would be instructing the Rules Committee as
4 to whether this is a seasonable period to
5 discuss this bill. Without the requisite time
6 to prepare and without the requisite time to
7 allow the public, particularly the people who
8 are supporting this bill, to come forward and
9 justify, I think disgraces them maybe even more
10 than those who are opposed to it, because I
11 would think that they would want their
12 consciences clear should this bill pass or ever
13 become law, that there was a reasonable time
14 given to those who had a differing point of view
15 and, for those reasons, I vote not to accept the
16 Rules Committee report.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
18 Paterson is recorded in the negative.
19 Continue the roll call.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
21 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
23 SENATOR RATH: Aye.
3858
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
2 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator
4 Santiago.
5 SENATOR SANTIAGO: No.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Seabrook.
8 SENATOR SEABROOK: No.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears.
10 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
12 (There was no response. )
13 Senator Skelos.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
16 SENATOR SMITH: No.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator
18 Stachowski.
19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr.
20 President, explain my vote.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
22 Stachowski to explain his vote.
23 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Earlier
3859
1 Senator Cook referred as a member of Rules that
2 the Rules Committee has the right to refer any
3 bill out directly to third reading and Senator
4 Dollinger said that they have the ability to do
5 that, but the body has to agree to it, and I
6 might point out that on numerous occasions we
7 not only have referred them but agreed to them
8 without any debate at all -- bills much more
9 complicated than this one, much longer than this
10 one, maybe many that took a lot longer in Rules
11 to get out than this one, but at least when
12 questions were asked in Rules on all those
13 previous bills, whoever was answering, whether
14 it was the sponsor, whether it was the counsel,
15 no matter who it was, had the ability to answer
16 the questions and had the information readily
17 available during the committee meeting, and so
18 there was no opposition from this side unless it
19 was a no vote in principle on the bill coming
20 out.
21 In this bill and in this
22 particular instance, this was not the case.
23 This is not the case and wasn't in committee.
3860
1 Somebody earlier pointed out that the bill has
2 been available since April 9th. We should all
3 have been able to read it and be familiar with
4 it. That may be true but -- and maybe we
5 wouldn't have read it, but at least the sponsor
6 who was fielding the questions would have been
7 able to give the definitions that were asked for
8 and explain the procedure precisely that was
9 asked for and answer a couple of other questions
10 that were asked.
11 That was not the case, so that
12 that example, if anybody should be upset about
13 that, should have been whoever was fielding the
14 questions in committee and if those questions
15 were answered, there wouldn't have been this
16 long debate about this bill coming here and it
17 would probably be taken up tomorrow.
18 The fact is that this bill makes
19 it a criminal offense and those definitions are
20 necessary and so that it's really incumbent on
21 us to have those answers so that if we put a
22 bill out that's going to be a law that the
23 courts can uphold and if those definitions
3861
1 aren't answered, aren't available, then how do
2 we even do these things? How do people uphold
3 the offense if it is an offense?
4 My problem is that all those
5 things were missing, and so that in this
6 particular instance, I too have a problem with
7 the bill coming from Rules directly to the floor
8 and it's only in this particular instance.
9 I vote no.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
11 Stachowski is recorded in the negative.
12 Continue the roll.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Stafford.
15 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Stavisky.
18 SENATOR STAVISKY: No.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo.
20 SENATOR TRUNZO: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
22 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
3862
1 SENATOR VELELLA: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
3 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
5 SENATOR WALDON: Explain my
6 vote.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
8 Waldon to explain his vote.
9 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President,
10 my colleagues, no one called me a history buff
11 but on occasion I do watch the channel on TV
12 that is the History Channel, and this past week
13 while I was home with the flu, I had occasion to
14 watch the channel, and it was dealing with a
15 particular period during the second World War
16 where -- excuse me -- the German army employed
17 lightning tactics -
18 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Excuse
19 me, Senator Walton. Excuse me. If I could have
20 order in the chambers, please. If we could
21 extend the courtesy to our colleague, it would
22 be appreciated.
23 Senator Waldon.
3863
1 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
2 much, Mr. President.
3 The German army employed
4 lightning tactics in order to accomplish its
5 mission. They went through the Ardennes, which
6 was thought not to be penetrable. They went
7 over the Maginot Line which was built in order
8 to keep all enemies out. But this is not the
9 Maginot Line, and this is not the Ardennes.
10 This is the chamber of the Senate of the state
11 of New York, and people come here to deliberate
12 and to profoundly deal with the problems facing
13 the people of the state of New York.
14 This time it was not done in
15 terms of deliberation in a very meaningful way.
16 This time it was not done in terms of meaning
17 the process was carried out in terms of thinking
18 soundly about what we were going to do. There
19 was no real opportunity for the Committee on
20 Codes to deal with this problem. There was no
21 opportunity for doctors who really understand
22 the gravity of the situation that we're dealing
23 with to come and testify and let us know the
3864
1 nuances of what we're doing. There was no
2 opportunity for women, who are the most impacted
3 by what we're doing here today, to come and let
4 us know how they feel, how the love and caring
5 that they have for their children will be
6 affected by what we're doing here.
7 This was a blitzkrieg, and the
8 beauty of the show that I saw on television was
9 that, though the blitzkrieg early on was
10 successful, eventually it didn't work. It did
11 not work, and we all know the history of what
12 happened in regard to the blitzkrieg.
13 This is a mistake, this blitz
14 krieg. I believe it is not foolproof. I
15 believe eventually it will fail and we will go
16 back to the process that reflects the important
17 decisions that must be made in this chamber. We
18 are better than the blitzkrieg.
19 Mr. President, my colleagues, I
20 vote in the no.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
22 Waldon is recorded in the negative.
23 Continue the roll.
3865
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright.
2 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
4 Absentees.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
6 (There was no response. )
7 Senator Gonzalez.
8 (There was no response. )
9 Senator Goodman.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Kuhl.
12 (There was no response. )
13 Senator Levy.
14 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
16 (There was no response. )
17 Senator Seward.
18 (There was no response. )
19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Read
20 the results.
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34, nays
22 21.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
3866
1 Rules report is accepted.
2 Senator Marcellino.
3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
4 President, is there any housekeeping at the
5 desk?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: There
7 is one motion.
8 Senator Holland.
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President,
10 on page 26, I offer the following amendments to
11 Calendar Number 597, for Senator Sears, Senate
12 Print Number 5917-A, and ask that the bill
13 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
15 Amendments are received.
16 Senator Marcellino.
17 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
18 President, there being no further business -
19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
20 Paterson, why do you rise?
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
22 I'd like to announce that there will be a
23 conference of the Minority tomorrow morning at
3867
1 10:00 a.m.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Be a
3 conference of the Senate Minority tomorrow
4 morning at 10:00 a.m.
5 Senator Marcellino.
6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: There being
7 no further business, I move we adjourn until
8 tomorrow, April 24th, at 10:00 a.m. sharp.
9 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President, I
10 oppose the motion, Mr. President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
12 Connor, why do you rise?
13 SENATOR CONNOR: To oppose the
14 motion. The Senate has a schedule on session
15 times. The Senate session on Wednesday calls
16 for a session at 11:00 a.m. To change it at 7:00
17 p.m. to 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning, when the
18 Majority knows they just placed on the floor a
19 major bill, has not been conferenced by this
20 side as we maintained in the procedural motion
21 or -
22 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
23 Skelos, why do you rise?
3868
1 SENATOR CONNOR: I object to the
2 motion to adjourn until 10:00 a.m.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I
4 believe a motion to adjourn is not debatable.
5 SENATOR CONNOR: Slow roll call,
6 Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Call the
8 roll. Five are standing. Slow roll call. We
9 have a motion to adjourn. Call the roll. The
10 Secretary will read.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
12 SENATOR ABATE: No.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi.
14 SENATOR ALESI: Yes.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
16 (There was no response. )
17 Senator Bruno.
18 (Affirmative indication. )
19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
21 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
23 Connor to explain his vote.
3869
1 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you.
2 You know, I really -- I really
3 hate to take up the time of this chamber and
4 have a slow roll call on a motion to adjourn,
5 but in the whole context of what's transpired
6 here today, the total disregard for the
7 deliberative process and for letting members
8 have an opportunity to consider very, very
9 important legislation, changing, deviating from
10 the schedule of an 11:00 a.m. session to 10:00
11 a.m. has the effect of denying this conference
12 the elementary courtesy that, in past regimes,
13 has always been extended in this house, and that
14 is when major legislation is brought forth, the
15 Minority is given an opportunity to conference
16 it because we all know of that unwritten rule,
17 that never published rule, that secret rule,
18 that says no legislation makes it to this floor
19 unless it's first conferenced and approved by a
20 majority of the Majority party, and in view of
21 that, it's our intention tomorrow to have a
22 conference at 10:00 a.m.
23 We can either -
3870
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Can I hear -
2 SENATOR CONNOR: We can either
3 do -
4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
5 Connor. Can we have order in the chamber,
6 please, so we can proceed.
7 The Chair recognizes Senator
8 Connor to continue.
9 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Mr.
10 President.
11 It seems to me our choices here
12 are simple. We can reject this motion to
13 adjourn until 10:00 a.m., do another one saying
14 that we'll start at 11:00 a.m. and we can start
15 promptly, or the Majority can insist on
16 adjourning until 10:00 a.m., and probably my
17 guess is it will probably be around noon when we
18 really get down to the business of this house.
19 I vote no on the motion to
20 adjourn.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
22 Connor is reported in the negative. Continue
23 the roll.
3871
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Cook.
2 (There was no response. )
3 Senator DeFrancisco.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
5 DeFrancisco to explain his vote.
6 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I want to
7 follow through with the spirit of Senator
8 Bruno's reforms in this house and not have an
9 all-night session. Because of that, I vote
10 yes.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
12 DeFrancisco is recorded in the affirmative.
13 Continue the roll.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator DiCarlo.
15 SENATOR DiCARLO: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Dollinger.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explain my
19 vote, Mr. President.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
21 Dollinger to explain his vote.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
23 President, when I spoke on the issue of
3872
1 accepting the Rules Committee report, I made
2 what even I thought was perhaps an outlandish
3 suggestion, that the reason why the Majority was
4 rushing this thing through was because they were
5 afraid that their constituents would call them
6 and say they were wrong.
7 Senator Connor, I'm now totally
8 convinced that I was absolutely right. The
9 reason why they're going to cut off this debate,
10 the reason why they want to get it done quickly
11 is so the people who would call them and tell
12 them they're wrong won't even know tomorrow
13 morning we're doing it.
14 I don't understand why we're
15 changing the calendar. I don't understand why
16 we're doing it. My respect for the order of
17 this house, which perhaps was growing in the
18 last year, seems to once again to have been
19 diminished back to its minimum status, because
20 this isn't about rules. This is all about
21 politics, and anybody that tells me otherwise
22 will have a very difficult task explaining what
23 happened tonight.
3873
1 No!
2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
3 Dollinger is recorded in the negative.
4 I would remind the members of the
5 Senate if we could keep the noise down, we can
6 proceed quicker.
7 Proceed with the roll.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
9 SENATOR ESPADA: No.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
11 SENATOR FARLEY: Aye.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
15 Gold to explain his vote.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President, I'm
17 very nervous about what Senator Connor said
18 about starting work at noon tomorrow. I want to
19 start at 11:00. I'm going to vote no.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
21 Gold in the negative.
22 Continue the roll.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
3874
1 Gonzalez.
2 (There was no response. )
3 Senator Goodman.
4 (There was no response.)
5 Senator Hannon.
6 (There was no response.)
7 Senator Hoblock.
8 SENATOR HOBLOCK: Yes.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator
10 Hoffmann.
11 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Explain my
12 vote.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
14 Hoffmann to explain her vote.
15 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Well, I feel
16 compelled, since I haven't taken too much
17 opportunity to speak on the floor of this
18 session, to explain once again on a procedural
19 motion where I find most of my colleagues on the
20 other side of the aisle really inconsistent with
21 the spirit of democracy as we know it.
22 We are expected to follow certain
23 rules of procedures. We're expected to
3875
1 deliberate in an open and forthright manner
2 those issues important to this state, and I
3 continue to believe that one of those most
4 important issues is resolving a state budget. I
5 have heard only recently from reporters that the
6 Governor is preoccupied with resolving a state
7 budget. In fact, he has threatened once again
8 to try to find a way to withhold the salaries of
9 lawmakers even if the rest of the state gets
10 paid, so he at least is thinking about this.
11 I'm not so sure that this is a
12 purely partisan issue. I think it may not be
13 something that is the major preoccupation of the
14 second floor of this Capitol right now but, for
15 some reason which is totally mystifying to me,
16 it appears to be a preoccupation of the
17 leadership or a large number of the members, all
18 of them willing to support it on the other side
19 of the aisle, and I represent so many people of
20 that political party who I know do not feel the
21 same way they do, I feel compelled to say no, we
22 should not change our procedures and suddenly
23 meet at 10:00 o'clock instead of at 11:00
3876
1 o'clock, not giving members an opportunity to
2 study a piece of legislation as meaningful as
3 this for an adequate amount of time, and having
4 it rushed to the floor.
5 No, of course, I'm not going to
6 support any of that. This is not a partisan
7 issue. For some reason, some people are
8 misinformed about the mood of the public out
9 there, and I hope they're going to get a quick
10 wake-up call because the voters and the
11 taxpayers of this state want us to work on the
12 budget, ladies and gentlemen. My colleagues,
13 they do not want us to be debating a measure
14 that apparently is not resolvable by the
15 President of the United States and the United
16 States Congress. They want us to put a budget
17 together tomorrow.
18 I'll vote no.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
20 Hoffmann is recorded in the negative.
21 Proceed with the roll.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland.
23 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
3877
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could we have
2 a little order in the chamber.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Proceed
4 with the roll.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
6 SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
8 SENATOR KRUGER: No.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Lachman.
12 SENATOR LACHMAN: No.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
14 SENATOR LACK: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
16 SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
18 SENATOR LAVALLE: Aye.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
20 SENATOR LEIBELL: Aye.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator
22 Leichter.
23 SENATOR LEICHTER: Nay.
3878
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy.
2 SENATOR LEVY: Aye.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
4 SENATOR LIBOUS: Aye.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
6 SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 Marcellino.
9 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
11 (There was no response. )
12 Senator Markowitz.
13 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Briefly to
14 explain.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
16 Markowitz to explain his vote.
17 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: My first few
18 months in the Senate back in 1979, a wonderful
19 colleague of mine by the name of Caesar Trunzo
20 said to me, "Markowitz, it's not for real."
21 Caesar, you are really right.
22 No!
23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
3879
1 Markowitz reported in the negative.
2 Continue.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz.
4 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
6 (There was no response. )
7 Senator Montgomery.
8 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Nozzolio.
12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
14 SENATOR ONORATO: No.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator
16 Oppenheimer.
17 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: No.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator
21 Paterson.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: No.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Present.
3880
1 SENATOR PRESENT: Aye.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
3 SENATOR RATH: Aye.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
5 SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Santiago.
8 (There was no response. )
9 Senator Seabrook.
10 SENATOR SEABROOK: No.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sears.
12 SENATOR SEARS: Aye.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
14 (There was no response. )
15 Senator Skelos.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: Aye.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
18 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
20 Smith to explain her vote.
21 SENATOR SMITH: I won't have many
22 words to say this evening so that I'm sure that
23 I have time tomorrow to have a lot to say so
3881
1 that I can help assure that we don't start
2 before noon.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: How do
4 you vote, Senator Smith?
5 SENATOR SMITH: No.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
7 Smith recorded in the negative.
8 Continue with the roll.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
10 (There was no response. )
11 Senator Stachowski.
12 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: To explain
13 my vote.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
15 Stachowski to explain his vote.
16 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I would hope
17 that somebody had heard Senator Connor, because
18 I would hate to think while the West Point
19 people are waiting around to do their resolu
20 tion, that we're arguing over procedural matters
21 and we don't even get to the West Point
22 resolution until around 12:00 o'clock or 2:00
23 o'clock in the afternoon.
3882
1 I vote no.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: Senator
3 Stachowski is recorded in the negative.
4 Continue the roll.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator
6 Stafford.
7 SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator
9 Stavisky.
10 SENATOR STAVISKY: No.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Trunzo.
12 SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Tully.
14 SENATOR TULLY: Aye.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
16 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
18 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
20 (There was no response. )
21 Senator Wright.
22 SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
3883
1 Absentees.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Babbush.
3 (There was no response. )
4 Senator Cook.
5 (There was no response. )
6 Senator Gonzalez.
7 (There was no response. )
8 Senator Goodman.
9 SENATOR GOODMAN: Aye.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon.
11 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
13 (There was no response. )
14 Senator Marchi.
15 (There was no response. )
16 Senator Mendez.
17 SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
19 SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
21 (There was no response. )
22 Senator Santiago.
23 (There was no response. )
3884
1 Senator Seward.
2 (There was no response. )
3 Senator Spano.
4 SENATOR SPANO: Aye.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
6 (There was no response. )
7 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT:
8 Results.
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 34, nays
10 19.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT WRIGHT: The
12 motion is approved. The Senate stands adjourned
13 until tomorrow at 10:00 a.m.
14 (Whereupon at 7:23 p.m., the
15 Senate adjourned.)
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23