Regular Session - May 6, 1996

                                                                 
4518

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         8                  ALBANY, NEW YORK

         9                    May 6, 1996

        10                     3:09 p.m.

        11

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        13                  REGULAR SESSION

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        15

        16

        17       SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President

        18       STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary

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        23











                                                             
4519

         1                      P R O C E E D I N G S

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senate

         3       will come to order.  Ask the members to find

         4       their place, staff to find their place.

         5                      I ask everybody in the chamber,

         6       including those people in the gallery, to rise

         7       and join with me in saying the Pledge of

         8       Allegiance to the flag.

         9                      (Whereupon, the Senate and those

        10       present joined in the Pledge of Allegiance to

        11       the Flag.)

        12                      In the absence of clergy, may we

        13       bow our heads in a moment of silence.

        14                      (Whereupon, there was a moment of

        15       silence.)

        16                      Reading of the Journal.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  In Senate,

        18       Sunday, May 5.  The Senate met pursuant to

        19       adjournment.  The Journal of Saturday, May 4,

        20       was read and approved.  On motion, Senate

        21       adjourned.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Hearing

        23       no objection, the Journal stands approved as











                                                             
4520

         1       read.

         2                      Presentations of petitions.

         3                      Messages from the Assembly.

         4                      Messages from the Governor.

         5                      Reports of standing committees.

         6                      Reports of select committees.

         7                      Communications and reports from

         8       state officers.

         9                      Motions and resolutions.

        10                      Chair recognizes Senator

        11       Maziarz.

        12                      SENATOR MAZIARZ:  Thank you, Mr.

        13       President.

        14                      Mr. President.  On page number

        15       64, I offer the following amendments to Calendar

        16       Number 544, Senate Print Number 6268, and ask

        17       that said bill retain its place on Third Reading

        18       Calendar, and also to remove the star.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        20       amendments to Calendar Number 544 are received

        21       and adopted.  The bill will retain its place on

        22       the Third Reading Calendar, and the star is

        23       removed.











                                                             
4521

         1                      Senator Maziarz.

         2                      SENATOR MAZIARZ:  Mr. President.

         3       On page 55, I offer the following amendments to

         4       Calendar Number 759, Senate Print Number 1677A,

         5       and ask that said bill retain its place on Third

         6       Reading Calendar.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         8       amendments to Calendar Number 759 are received

         9       and adopted.  Bill will retain its place on

        10       Third Reading Calendar.

        11                      Senator Maziarz.

        12                      SENATOR MAZIARZ:  Mr. President.

        13       On behalf of Senator Velella, on page 52, I

        14       offer the following amendments to Calendar

        15       Number 735, Senate Print Number 6906, and ask

        16       that said bill retain its place on Third Reading

        17       Calendar.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        19       Amendments to Calendar Number 735 are received

        20       and adopted.  Bill will retain its place on

        21       Third Reading Calendar.

        22                      Senator Maziarz.

        23                      SENATOR MAZIARZ:  Mr. President,











                                                             
4522

         1       on behalf of Senator Hannon, on page number 61,

         2       I offer the following amendments to Calendar

         3       Number 11, Senate Print Number 5238, ask said

         4       bill retain its place on Third Reading Calendar.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

         6       Amendments to Calendar Number 11 are received

         7       and adopted.  Bill will retain its place on

         8       Third Reading Calendar.

         9                      Senator Maziarz.

        10                      SENATOR MAZIARZ:  Mr. President.

        11       On behalf of myself, I ask that a sponsor's star

        12       be placed on Calendar Number 871.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Calendar

        14       Number 871 is starred at the request of the

        15       sponsor.

        16                      Senator DiCarlo.

        17                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Mr. President.

        18       On behalf of Senator Saland, I wish to call up

        19       bill Print Number 3474, recalled from the

        20       Assembly, which is now at the desk.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        22       Secretary will read.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator











                                                             
4523

         1       Saland, Senate Print 3474, an act to amend the

         2       Social Services Law.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       DiCarlo.

         5                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  I now move to

         6       reconsider the vote by which the bill was

         7       passed.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         9       Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        11       reconsideration.)

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 40.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        14       is before the house.

        15                      Senator DiCarlo.

        16                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Mr. President.

        17       I now offer the following amendments.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        19       Amendments are received and adopted.

        20                      Senator DiCarlo.

        21                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Mr. President.

        22       On behalf of Senator Velella, I'd like to call

        23       up bill Print Number 6125, recalled from the











                                                             
4524

         1       Assembly, which is now at the desk.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         3       will read.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

         5       Velella, Senate Print 6125, an act to amend the

         6       Insurance Law.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       DiCarlo.

         9                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Mr. President.

        10       I now move to reconsider the vote by which this

        11       bill was passed.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        13       Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        15       reconsideration.)

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        18       is before the house.

        19                      Senator DiCarlo.

        20                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Mr. President.

        21       I now offer the following amendments.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        23       Amendments are received and adopted.











                                                             
4525

         1                      Senator DiCarlo.

         2                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Mr. President.

         3       On behalf of Senator Leibell, I wish to call up

         4       bill Print Number 6124, recalled from the

         5       Assembly, which is now at the desk.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

         7       Leibell, Senate Print 6124, an act to amend the

         8       General Municipal Law.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       DiCarlo.

        11                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Mr. President.

        12       I now move to reconsider the vote by which this

        13       bill was passed.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        15       Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.

        16                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        17       reconsideration.)

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        20       is before the house.

        21                      Senator DiCarlo.

        22                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Mr. President,

        23       I now offer the following amendments.











                                                             
4526

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         2       LaValle.

         3                      SENATOR LAVALLE:  Mr. President,

         4       I'd like to place a sponsor's star on Calendar

         5       Number 946, Senate Print Number 1719.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Calendar

         7       Number 946 is starred at the request of the

         8       sponsor.

         9                      Senator Bruno, I have a

        10       substitution at the desk if we could take that

        11       now.

        12                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Please make the

        13       substitution.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        15       Secretary will read the substitution.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 5,

        17       Senator LaValle moves to discharge from the

        18       Committee on Higher Education Assembly Bill 6794

        19       and substitute it for the identical Senate Bill

        20       7232.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        22       Substitution is ordered.

        23                      Senator Bruno.











                                                             
4527

         1                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President, I

         2       believe that there is a privileged resolution at

         3       the desk by Senator DiCarlo.  I would ask that

         4       the title be read and that we move its adoption.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There is

         6       a privileged resolution at the desk.  I will

         7       direct the Secretary to read the title.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

         9       DiCarlo, Legislative Resolution commending Sonya

        10       Deiber.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        12       question is on the resolution.

        13                      All those in favor, signify by

        14       saying aye.

        15                      (Response of "Aye.")

        16                      Opposed, nay.

        17                      (There was no response.)

        18                      The resolution is adopted.

        19                      Senator Bruno, that brings us to

        20       the calendar.

        21                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President,

        22       can we at this time take up the noncontroversial

        23       calendar.











                                                             
4528

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         2       will read the noncontroversial calendar.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 32,

         4       Calendar Number 417, by Senator Libous, Senate

         5       Print 4457A, an act to amend the General

         6       Business Law, in relation to unlawful possession

         7       of tobacco.

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it aside.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        10       bill aside.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       537, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 4329B, an

        13       act to amend the Estate, Powers and Trusts Law,

        14       the Insurance Law, in relation to disqualifying

        15       persons who have caused the death of a decedent.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        17       Secretary will read the last section.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 6.  This

        19       act shall take effect immediately.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        21       roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.











                                                             
4529

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         2       is passed.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       620, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 4496, an

         5       act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

         6       authorizing additional term of imprisonment for

         7       sale of controlled substances or marijuana.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         9       Secretary will read the last section.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 6.  This

        11       act shall take effect on the first day of

        12       November.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        14       roll.

        15                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        18       is passed.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       641, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 491, an

        21       act to amend the Social Services Law, in

        22       relation to access to criminal history records.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The











                                                             
4530

         1       Secretary will read the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         3       act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         5       roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         9       is passed.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       650, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 4594, an

        12       act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in

        13       relation to the payment date of installments of

        14       taxes to a county.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        16       Secretary will read the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        18       act shall take effect on the first day of

        19       January.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        21       roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.











                                                             
4531

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         2       is passed.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       654, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 6271, an act

         5       to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation

         6       to fees of justice courts.

         7                      SENATOR WALDON:  Lay it aside.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         9       bill aside.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       655, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 6348A, an act

        12       to amend the Local Finance Law, in relation to

        13       flood relief expenses.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        15       Secretary will read the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        19       roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        23       is passed.











                                                             
4532

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       656, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 6661, an act

         3       to amend the County Law, in relation to the

         4       operation of secure detention facilities.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         6       bill aside.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         8       657, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 6785, an act

         9       to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation

        10       to authorizing an increase in the charge that

        11       may be imposed for a returned check.

        12                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Lay it aside.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        14       bill aside.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        16       663, by member of the Assembly Luster, Assembly

        17       Print 647A, an act to amend the Uniform District

        18       Court Act.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        20       Secretary will read the last section.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 15.  This

        22       act shall take effect immediately.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the











                                                             
4533

         1       roll.

         2                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         5       is passed.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       665, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 6746 an act

         8       to amend the Surrogate's Court Procedure Act, in

         9       relation to the time in which an estate may be

        10       distributed.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        12       Secretary will read the last section.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        14       act shall take effect immediately.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        16       roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        20       is passed.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       668, by Senator Present, Senate Print 4092, an

        23       act to amend the Economic Development Law, the











                                                             
4534

         1       General Municipal Law, the Public Authorities

         2       Law, in relation to program reporting.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         4       Secretary will read the last section.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 29.  This

         6       act shall take effect immediately.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         8       roll.

         9                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        12       is passed.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       669, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 5077, an

        15       act to amend State Administrative Procedure Act,

        16       in relation to requiring private property rights

        17       protection.

        18                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Lay it aside.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        20       bill aside.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       680, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 2591D, an act

        23       to amend the Public Authorities Law and











                                                             
4535

         1       Administrative Code of the State of New York, in

         2       relation to establishing the Committee on

         3       Personal security.

         4                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Lay it aside.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         6       bill aside.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         8       731, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 3763, an

         9       act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

        10       agent termination.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        12       bill aside.

        13                      Senator Bruno, that completes the

        14       calling of the noncontroversial calendar.

        15                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President,

        16       can we at this time take up the controversial

        17       calendar.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        19       Secretary will read the controversial calendar,

        20       beginning with Calendar Number 417.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 32,

        22       Calendar Number 417, by Senator Libous, Senate

        23       Print 4457A, an act to amend the General











                                                             
4536

         1       Business Law, in relation to unlawful possession

         2       of tobacco.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         4       Libous, an explanation of Calendar Number 417

         5       has been asked for by the Acting Minority

         6       Leader, Senator Paterson.

         7                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Thank you, Mr.

         8       President.  Basically, what this legislation

         9       does, it puts responsibility on those minors who

        10       are purchasing and possessing tobacco.  We have

        11       laws that are presently on the books that go

        12       after those businesses who are illegally selling

        13       tobacco products to minors.

        14                      This is patterned very similarly

        15       to the alcohol bill that this house passed

        16       several years ago and actually became law, which

        17       dealt with the unlawful possession of alcohol.

        18                      This deals with tobacco products.

        19       Right now, we're trying to do everything we

        20       can.  This state spends an awful lot of money

        21       through education programs, through schools and

        22       through a number of different areas and trying

        23       to teach our young people under the age of 18











                                                             
4537

         1       years of age that tobacco products can be

         2       harmful, and I think this goes a long way in

         3       teaching them a little bit of added

         4       responsibility.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Paterson.

         7                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

         8       President.  If Senator Libous would avail

         9       himself to a question?

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Libous, do you yield to a question from Senator

        12       Paterson?

        13                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  I'd be happy to,

        14       Mr. President.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       yields.

        17                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        18       President.

        19                      Senator Libous, we agree with the

        20       goals of this type of legislation, and it would

        21       establish a good precedent.  I'm just confused

        22       as to why we are exempting the employees of the

        23       dealers, the wholesalers and the distributors of











                                                             
4538

         1       tobacco, the employees who would be underage.

         2       Why are they restricted on this legislation?

         3                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Mr. President,

         4       right now, under present law, what would happen

         5       basically is, there are fines that are imposed

         6       against those businesses.  So, Mr. President,

         7       the business owner would be subject to those

         8       penalties and fines.  It really doesn't pertain

         9       to the person who actually sold the product, but

        10       it pertains to the business itself.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Paterson.

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        14       President.  If Senator Libous would continue to

        15       yield?

        16                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Yes, I will.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       continues to yield.

        19                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator, what

        20       I read from your legislation was the possession

        21       of tobacco with intent to use it.  So in spite

        22       of the fact that the business owner would be

        23       liable, the message and the lesson that you just











                                                             
4539

         1       described that we would want to send to younger

         2       people, in my opinion, would be enhanced just as

         3       forcibly by the maintaining of the exact same

         4       guidelines for an individual whether they were

         5       an employee or not an employee.

         6                      So, in other words, if the intent

         7       of the legislation is to target those who would

         8       use the tobacco, then I don't see any difference

         9       between an individual who would be employed by

        10       the wholesaler, the dealer or the distributor,

        11       and anybody else.

        12                      And so my question is, why would

        13       we draw that distinction?

        14                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Mr. President.

        15       I drew the distinction because the intent and

        16       purpose of this legislation was to put some

        17       teeth into those who are under age of 18 and who

        18       are possessing tobacco products.  Basically, our

        19       goal here is to teach and to try to put some

        20       enforcement responsibilities upon those who,

        21       particularly, go into stores and are purchasing

        22       the products illegally.

        23                      There are teeth in the present











                                                             
4540

         1       law that deal with penalties to businesses;

         2       however, the young person in the past has been

         3       able to walk away and not have any

         4       responsibility.  This is patterned very similar

         5       to, as I said, the alcohol legislation that was

         6       passed and signed by the Governor a couple of

         7       years ago; and, basically, its goal, Senator, is

         8       to put some responsibility on the individual who

         9       is underage and buying tobacco products.

        10                      Its intent is not to go after the

        11       particular businesses because there are already

        12       laws that are on the books that deal with those

        13       particular individuals, and it's not to go after

        14       any particular individual who works.  For years,

        15       what we've done -- as a matter of fact, I can

        16       give you a good example.  My father owned a

        17       grocery store.  If I was working that store or

        18       my brother was working that store or if my

        19       cousin or sister was working that store, and we

        20       sold tobacco products to a minor, we would then

        21       be punished as a business, and my father would

        22       have to pay that fine.  There would be no

        23       particular punishment of the individual, and











                                                             
4541

         1       that's not what the intent of this legislation

         2       is to be.

         3                      This is legislation that should

         4       show some responsibility on the fact that if

         5       young people are purchasing tobacco under the

         6       age of 18 and they are possessing it then there

         7       should be some responsibility here.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Paterson.

        10                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

        11       President.  Thank you very much Senator Libous

        12       for your response.

        13                      Mr. President, on the bill.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Paterson, on the bill.

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  It might be

        17       somewhat of a mixed message if an individual

        18       cannot use a product or can sell a product when

        19       they are underage.  That is not really my

        20       problem with this legislation.

        21                      I agree with Senator Libous that

        22       we would not want to be restricting somebody

        23       from working and if they are working and they











                                                             
4542

         1       are underage, they should be entitled, I would

         2       suppose, to sell all the products that a person

         3       is selling if they are over the limit.

         4                      But what is specific to this

         5       legislation is that it targets the intent to use

         6       the product which would automatically exempt an

         7       individual who was selling the product, and so,

         8       since we would automatically exempt the person

         9       since they could establish, "No, I'm not using

        10       it, I'm selling it," I imagine what Senator

        11       Libous is really trying to do is to make sure

        12       that there is not a presumption that the sale is

        13       not the catalyst to the use, and I can

        14       understand that.

        15                      However, I don't think it is

        16       necessarily appropriate to the legislation or to

        17       the message we want to send, and we want to send

        18       a complete message presumably, not one that is

        19       somewhat obfuscated by an ancillary piece of

        20       legislation that would confuse people, and I

        21       think we are confusing individuals when they

        22       come to the conclusion that an individual is

        23       exempt because they are selling a product.











                                                             
4543

         1                      The fact is that the legislation

         2       itself states that it is the use or the intent

         3       to use that would make someone eligible under

         4       the statute and, since the statute is written

         5       that way, I would feel that it sends a mixed

         6       message, because a person who is now selling the

         7       product could use it because there's nothing to

         8       stop them whereas anyone else would be

         9       prohibited by this legislation.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        11       any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?

        12                      SENATOR WALDON:  Mr. President.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Waldon.

        15                      SENATOR WALDON:  Yes, would

        16       Senator Libous yield?

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       Libous, would you yield to a question from

        19       Senator Waldon?

        20                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Certainly.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       yields.

        23                      SENATOR WALDON:  Senator Libous,











                                                             
4544

         1       suppose someone is in the U.S. military.

         2       They're a New York resident.  You can join the

         3       military under age 18.  You can go away and die

         4       for your country at that tender age.  What

         5       happens when someone who is accustomed to

         6       smoking on the base comes home and is found to

         7       have cigarettes in his or her possession?

         8                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  If he or she is

         9       under 18, and for some reason the law needs to

        10       be put into place, then they would not be

        11       exempt.

        12                      SENATOR WALDON:  I beg your

        13       pardon?

        14                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  They would not

        15       be exempt.  Obviously, Senator, the intent here,

        16       again, is predominantly in those situations

        17       where we have people under 18 years of age

        18       purchasing cigarettes in stores and, as you

        19       know, you have to be 18 years of age to

        20       purchase, and this is really where the intent of

        21       this legislation is going.  And also if young

        22       minors are possessing tobacco and if they are in

        23       a situation where they are caught with that











                                                             
4545

         1       possession, there are a couple of violations

         2       that can take place.

         3                      Obviously, the violation will not

         4       go against their record, but there could be

         5       community service or a $50 fine.  And, again,

         6       the whole concept here is to teach people under

         7       the age of 18, quite simply, that it is illegal

         8       for them to purchase and it's illegal for them

         9       to have possession.

        10                      So, obviously, Senator, if

        11       someone is 17 years of age and they are in the

        12       armed forces, that's an honorable thing for them

        13       to do, but at the same time they are still not

        14       old enough to purchase tobacco products in the

        15       United States.

        16                      SENATOR WALDON:  Would the

        17       Senator yield for another question or two, Mr.

        18       President?

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Waldon, Senator Libous, if you would excuse us

        21       just a minute.  I want to recognize Senator

        22       Bruno for an announcement.

        23                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Would you











                                                             
4546

         1       Senators excuse the interruption while we

         2       announce a correction.

         3                      The Transportation Committee was

         4       announced to meet in Room 124.  We would like to

         5       change that to Room 332.  They are meeting

         6       immediately.  We would ask any members to join

         7       them in Room 332, not Room 124.

         8                      Thank you, Senators.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

        10       will be an immediate meeting of the Senate

        11       Transportation Committee in the Majority

        12       Conference Room, Room 332.

        13                      An immediate meeting of the

        14       Senate Transportation Committee in the Majority

        15       Conference Room, Room 332.

        16                      Thank you, gentlemen, for the

        17       interruption.  Senator Waldon, you had the

        18       floor.

        19                      SENATOR WALDON:  Yes, I was

        20       asking if Senator Libous would yield for another

        21       question?

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        23       Libous, do you continue to yield?











                                                             
4547

         1                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Yes.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       continues to yield.

         4                      SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you very

         5       much, Mr. President.

         6                      Thank you, Senator.  Senator, I'm

         7       trying to make here a valid point.  It's not a

         8       frivolous pursuit.

         9                      But if someone is in the service

        10       of his or her nation and if the consumption of

        11       alcohol and/or tobacco products on base is

        12       approved by the employer of the moment, this

        13       nation, we have an obvious conflict when the

        14       person comes home and happens to stop to buy a

        15       pack of cigarettes and is then caught in the

        16       snare of what you are proposing.

        17                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Mr. President,

        18       if I can answer that.  I respect what the

        19       Senator is saying, but at the same time that

        20       person serves his country overseas and comes

        21       home and, if that person is under the age of 18,

        22       they can not legally purchase tobacco products.

        23       That doesn't change.











                                                             
4548

         1                      SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you very

         2       much, Mr. President.  Thank you, Senator Libous.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Any other

         4       Senator wishing to speak on the bill?

         5                      Senator Paterson.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

         7       President.  Upon further perusal of the bill,

         8       it's possible that I made a mistake.

         9                      And if Senator Libous would yield

        10       for a question?

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Libous, do you yield to another question from

        13       Senator Paterson?

        14                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Yes, I would,

        15       Mr. President.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       yields.

        18                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator

        19       Libous, I asked you a question earlier about an

        20       individual who was employed by a distributor or

        21       a wholesaler, and so the thrust of my question

        22       was, would this exempt this individual from

        23       being charged if it could be established that











                                                             
4549

         1       they were going to use the tobacco product?

         2                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Mr. President,

         3       could I ask Senator Paterson to hit me with that

         4       question one more time, because I'm a little

         5       confused as to what he is after.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Certainly, Mr.

         7       President.

         8                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Please.

         9                      SENATOR PATERSON:  There is an

        10       exemption in the legislation that covers

        11       individuals who are employed in the selling of

        12       tobacco by the distributor or the wholesaler

        13       and, therefore, I inferred from the reading of

        14       that part of the legislation that you could not

        15       ban these individuals even if they were

        16       intending to use the product.

        17                      So my question is, more than the

        18       fact that an individual worked for the

        19       convenience store, if they took a pack of

        20       cigarettes outside of the convenience store

        21       clearly with an intent to use the product, would

        22       the exemption still cover them or would they be

        23       just as liable as anyone else who is using the











                                                             
4550

         1       product?

         2                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Senator, thank

         3       you, because I do understand your question now.

         4       I really didn't the first time.

         5                      The answer to your question is

         6       yes.  Yes.

         7                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you,

         8       Senator.  Then, therefore, there was somewhat of

         9       a misunderstanding, because I thought that the

        10       exemption would cover even the intent to use of

        11       the individual.

        12                      SENATOR LIBOUS:  Mr. President.

        13       Senator Paterson, and I apologize because I mis

        14       understood the question initially, but the

        15       answer to that question is yes.

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you,

        17       Senator.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Marchi.

        20                      SENATOR MARCHI:  I just wanted to

        21       comment.  Senator Libous' bill is really -- he

        22       is doing something very constructive for that

        23       youngster, and that youngster may be grateful











                                                             
4551

         1       some day.

         2                      You know, the most painful thing

         3       is to see young people getting involved in

         4       smoking.  The older people are sometimes

         5       dependent, and it is difficult to wrestle with

         6       that problem successfully, but anything that can

         7       be done to dissuade and persuade that this is

         8       the wrong way to go may spare that young man or

         9       that young woman from a date on the table where

        10       they are being operated for lung cancer or some

        11       other malignancy.

        12                      So this is a very, very

        13       constructive step.  It is a mild reproach,

        14       really, but it is an educative process that that

        15       young man or woman would certainly value later

        16       on in life when they realize the hazards they

        17       were being asked to avoid.

        18                      I certainly would urge a positive

        19       vote on this.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        21       Secretary will read the last section.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        23       act shall take effect on the first day of











                                                             
4552

         1       September.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         3       roll.

         4                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Montgomery to explain her vote.

         7                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Yes, Mr.

         8       President.  I'm going to vote against this bill,

         9       not because I think that it's bad for young

        10       people to be discouraged from smoking and using

        11       tobacco at all but because I believe that there

        12       are much more effective ways of doing that, and

        13       we certainly don't want to go around issuing

        14       summonses to 16- and 17- and 13- and

        15       14-year-olds because their parents sent them to

        16       the store to buy cigarettes or whatever or

        17       however they get the cigarettes.  The bodega

        18       sells it to them or one at a time or however

        19       they get it, which is how a lot of young people

        20       get these cigarettes.

        21                      And for them to receive a summons

        22       and have to go to whatever the court is,

        23       whatever the process is vis-a-vis the











                                                             
4553

         1       legislation, I just don't think that that is a

         2       way to really and truly discourage children from

         3       using cigarettes or any other drug at an early

         4       age.

         5                      I would hope, on the other hand,

         6       that Senator Libous would be as vocal and as

         7       persistent in pushing for school-based health

         8       clinics with funding -- clinics that include

         9       funding through the Department of Education for

        10       the express purpose of providing health

        11       education to young people in schools at an early

        12       point when they are most impressionable and when

        13       we can get them to change their behavior as

        14       relates to their bodies and their health

        15       generally.

        16                      So, Mr. President, I'm voting no

        17       on this, and, as I said, I agree with the

        18       intent, but I think that this is just the wrong

        19       direction to go if we want to really teach

        20       youngsters to take care of their bodies and to

        21       live healthy and healthful lives.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        23       Montgomery will be recorded in the negative.











                                                             
4554

         1                      Senator Waldon to explain his

         2       vote.

         3                      SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you very

         4       much, Mr. President.

         5                      We have an incongruity here.  At

         6       the federal level, the government is subsidizing

         7       tobacco farmers.  They are a key element in our

         8       economy, and the federal government is saying,

         9       "We need you to grow tobacco," and yet some

        10       welfare mother will send her young child to the

        11       store to buy a pack of cigarettes because as a

        12       single parent, head of household, her only

        13       pleasure of the moment may be the pack of

        14       cigarettes.

        15                      And this kid who will probably

        16       look something like me, on his way home, will be

        17       stopped by an officer doing his duty, not

        18       necessarily picking on this young person, but

        19       the person's introduction to the criminal

        20       justice system will begin with this summons.

        21                      I think it is wrong.  I think it

        22       is abhorrent.

        23                      I don't condone smoking











                                                             
4555

         1       especially amongst young folk, but I think the

         2       social concern and the social responsibility is

         3       misdirected.  I think it's a mistake to

         4       constantly intrude in certain forms of social

         5       behavior, and I think this chamber should be

         6       mindful of the direction in which it is headed

         7       when it does these kinds of things.

         8                      Will we next be peeking through

         9       the blinds in the bedroom and saying, "Aha!

        10       This is not acceptable"?  I think that's the

        11       direction in which we're headed when we pursue

        12       this course of action.

        13                      And because of these reasons, I

        14       oppose it.  I vote in the no.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Waldon will be recorded in the negative.

        17                      Announce the results.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

        19       the negative on Calendar Number 417 are Senator

        20       Montgomery, Senators Seabrook, Smith and

        21       Waldon.  Ayes 50, nays 4.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        23       is passed.











                                                             
4556

         1                      The Secretary will continue to

         2       call the controversial calendar.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       654, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 6271, an act

         5       to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation

         6       to fees of justice courts.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Gold.

         9                      SENATOR GOLD:  What?

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  You rise

        11       for a question?

        12                      The Secretary will read the last

        13       section.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        15       act shall take effect on the first day of April.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        17       roll.

        18                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        21       is passed.

        22                      Senator Stavisky, why do you

        23       rise?











                                                             
4557

         1                      SENATOR STAVISKY:  Mr.

         2       President.  I was just outside the chamber when

         3       Calendar 417 was voted on.  Will you cast me in

         4       the negative, please.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

         6       objection, hearing no objection, Senator

         7       Stavisky will be recorded in the negative on

         8       Calendar Number 417.

         9                      The motion is to reconsider the

        10       vote by which Calendar Number 654 passed the

        11       house.

        12                      The Secretary will read.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator Cook,

        14       Senate Print 6271, an act to amend the General

        15       Municipal Law, in relation to fees of justice

        16       courts.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        18       Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.

        19                      (The Secretary called the roll on

        20       reconsideration.)

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        23       is before the house.











                                                             
4558

         1                      Secretary will read.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       654, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 6271, an act

         4       to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation

         5       to fees of justice courts.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       Waldon.

         8                      SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you very

         9       much, Mr. President.  I appreciate the courtesy.

        10                      Will Senator Cook yield to a

        11       question?

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Cook, do you yield?

        14                      SENATOR COOK:  Yes.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       yields.

        17                      SENATOR WALDON:  Senator, when I

        18       read over this bill, I was very concerned that

        19       the person who may be required to pay these fees

        20       might not be in a position to really afford it.

        21       I recognize that if they committed certain forms

        22       of behavior, they should be punished.  I'm not

        23       opposed to that.  I'm really not opposed to the











                                                             
4559

         1       exacting of fines -- not fines, I'm sorry  fees

         2       when a person can afford it, but many of the

         3       people, as you know as well as I, who come

         4       before the criminal justice system are there

         5       through acts of desperation and really can not

         6       afford to pay fees of any form.  That's why

         7       they're out stealing or whatever they're doing.

         8       Not condoning the behavior, but are we not

         9       compounding the process by putting these

        10       additional fees on them?  I just wanted to know

        11       how you feel about that.

        12                      SENATOR COOK:  Mr. President.

        13       Senator, the process of levying these fees is

        14       something that's been on the book for ten

        15       years.  It does indeed add $5 in each instance

        16       to the cost that's there.  I have to assume that

        17       if $5 is a hardship, $10 is still a hardship.

        18       But I don't think it really changes the

        19       dimensions of what happens if the person is

        20       indigent and, therefore, unable to pay the fee.

        21                      In all candor, I assume that

        22       there is a process by which the court deals with

        23       that situation and, frankly, Senator, I don't











                                                             
4560

         1       know what it is because I'm not an attorney, I

         2       don't practice in the courts.

         3                      The whole point of this bill,

         4       however, is that for ten years the justice

         5       courts have been basically collecting a lot of

         6       money for the state of New York.  They are in

         7       fact big revenue collectors.  Cost of running

         8       those justice courts is imposed upon the

         9       taxpayers of the municipality and consequently

        10       there is never -- the local people are paying a

        11       property tax to pay for a court which

        12       essentially is raising money and sending it to

        13       the state, and the whole point of this bill is

        14       to try to make sure that those courts are

        15       self-supporting.  That is really the point of

        16       it.

        17                      SENATOR WALDON:  Mr. President,

        18       on the bill.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        20       Waldon, on the bill.

        21                      SENATOR WALDON:  I appreciate the

        22       explanation of Senator Cook.  I did not

        23       understand it as well reading through it as his











                                                             
4561

         1       explanation.  If the purpose here is to reduce

         2       the impact on the local municipalities,

         3       certainly I can go along with that.  I prefer

         4       that the state pick up the whole cost and that

         5       there be no tax on the municipality or on those

         6       who may be indigent in this process.

         7                      I will support the bill, Mr.

         8       President.

         9                      Thank you, Senator Cook.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        11       Secretary will read the last section.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        13       act shall take effect on the first day of April.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        15       roll.

        16                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        19       is passed.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        21       656, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 6661, an act

        22       to amend the County Law, in relation to the

        23       operation of secure detention facilities.











                                                             
4562

         1                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Rath, an explanation of Calendar 656 has been

         4       asked for by Senator Paterson, the Acting

         5       Minority Leader.

         6                      SENATOR RATH:  Yes, Senator

         7       Paterson.  The bill before the house is a bill

         8       that would give the counties an opportunity to

         9       contract with other entities than they are now

        10       contracting with.  It was at the request of

        11       several counties in the Capital Region and

        12       Chemung County.  They have asked the Division

        13       for Youth for permission to establish secure

        14       detention facilities operated by an authorized

        15       agency.

        16                      There are presently only six such

        17       facilities in the state of New York and in that

        18       many youth have been sentenced to the kinds of

        19       sentences that would keep them in detention for

        20       over a year and they need to be in secure

        21       detention as opposed to nonsecure detention,

        22       they need another option, and this would give

        23       them that option.











                                                             
4563

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         2       Paterson.

         3                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

         4       President.  If Senator Rath will yield?

         5                      SENATOR RATH:  Sure.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       yields.

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator Rath,

         9       I don't mean to minimize the gravity of concern

        10       that the counties have for the staffing of these

        11       facilities, and I recognize that there have been

        12       a number of complaints about malfeasance of duty

        13       on the part of some of the individuals who work

        14       there; nonetheless, the operation of secure

        15       detention facilities is a critical function in

        16       the state and the individuals who are placed in

        17       such facilities pose a tangible threat to our

        18       society.

        19                      Ordinarily, these facilities are

        20       staffed by highly-trained and very professional

        21       individuals.  Because there have been some

        22       problems, isn't it possible that the private

        23       companies with which we may contract are not











                                                             
4564

         1       training their personnel as well and that in

         2       avoidance of a problem, that perhaps we can

         3       address administratively, we take a procedure

         4       that might exacerbate the problem that we're

         5       having in the facilities right now?

         6                      SENATOR RATH:  Senator, my

         7       recollection of some of the difficulties that we

         8       had were in state facilities, and it was state

         9       personnel that we had some of the difficulties

        10       with, and it's my understanding that this would

        11       be an authorized agency and licensed by the

        12       state of New York, and so the question of the

        13       kinds of folks that were functioning as the

        14       personnel in the agencies would have the same

        15       responsibilities for training as they would if

        16       they were in a state-run facility.  This just

        17       gives an alternate opportunity, for example, if

        18       two counties wanted to work together and share.

        19                      And in that there are only six

        20       facilities in the state now, the fact that these

        21       are young people whose parents need to see them

        22       on the weekend and the young people who need to

        23       see their parents, I think we need to have more











                                                             
4565

         1       of these facilities, and recognizing that the

         2       nonsecure facilities -- we are now contracting

         3       that way for the nonsecure facilities.  This

         4       just makes it possible for them to be secure

         5       facilities.  Indeed, it may be even some of the

         6       same agencies that are contracting for nonsecure

         7       that would contract for secure.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Paterson.

        10                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        11       President, Senator Rath.  The method of

        12       regulation you are saying would, in effect, be

        13       the same even though the operation of the

        14       companies may be somewhat outside of the scope

        15       of the agencies with which we are contracting

        16       right now?

        17                      SENATOR RATH:  Well, the agencies

        18       that we're contracting with right now are not

        19       for-profit corporations licensed by the

        20       Department of Social Services to provide this

        21       care for delinquent, destitute, abused and

        22       neglected youth.  I'm thinking of several

        23       specific agencies in Western New York that would











                                                             
4566

         1       qualify and are presently licensed to serve as

         2       nonsecure.  They would now through additional

         3       regulations and the additional certification be

         4       able to supply for secure, as well as nonsecure.

         5                      SENATOR PATERSON:  If Senator

         6       would continue to yield?

         7                      SENATOR RATH:  Sure.

         8                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Would you be

         9       planning on licensing the companies that we

        10       would now be contracting with?

        11                      SENATOR RATH:  Was that the full

        12       question, Senator?

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  That was a

        14       question.

        15                      SENATOR RATH:  Could you repeat

        16       the question.  I thought it was a half a

        17       question.  Go ahead again, please.

        18                      SENATOR PATERSON:  My question is

        19       what would be the standard of care that the

        20       private companies would have to meet to become

        21       eligible, and would we be licensing them?

        22                      SENATOR RATH:  Whatever we're

        23       doing in state facilities, that same standard











                                                             
4567

         1       would be held to the private companies that

         2       would be providing the services.

         3                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you very

         4       much, Senator.

         5                      Other than that -- the Civil

         6       Service Employees Association has issued a memo

         7       in opposition to this legislation and other than

         8       that, I thank you for the answer.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Chair

        10       recognizes Senator Leichter.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yes, thank

        12       you, Mr. President.

        13                      Senator Rath, would you be so

        14       good as to yield to one or more questions?

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Rath, do you yield to Senator Leichter?

        17                      SENATOR RATH:  Yes.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       yields.

        20                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator Rath,

        21       as I understand it, your bill would authorize

        22       the contracting out of all aspects of the

        23       operation of one of these youth facilities.  Is











                                                             
4568

         1       that correct?

         2                      SENATOR RATH:  We are saying that

         3       the counties would have the flexibility to

         4       contract if they did not have the capacity in

         5       their county in order to cover the number of

         6       young people that needed to be in a secure

         7       detention facility.

         8                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  If you would

         9       be so good as to continue to yield.

        10                      SENATOR RATH:  Yes.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  And that

        12       contracting can be to a private company; is that

        13       correct?

        14                      SENATOR RATH:  It would be to an

        15       agency that would be certified by the Department

        16       of Social Services.  For example, Hopevale in

        17       Erie County would be a capability of a

        18       contractor.  These are private not-for-profit

        19       agencies that could contain secure detention as

        20       opposed to nonsecure detention.

        21                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Among the

        22       services they would be contracting out would

        23       also be the security services to see that these











                                                             
4569

         1       kids did not run away?

         2                      SENATOR RATH:  Yes.  Yes, that's

         3       exactly right.

         4                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  The question I

         5       have for you, Senator Rath, is, earlier this

         6       session, maybe just a couple of weeks ago, we

         7       passed a bill that was sponsored by Senator

         8       Nozzolio and Senator Abate which I'm sure you

         9       voted for -- I think it passed unanimously -

        10       where we prohibited the Department of Correction

        11       from contracting out the security functions.

        12       Why, just two weeks after we did that, are we

        13       departing this principle in the instances of

        14       youth facilities?

        15                      SENATOR RATH:  I think we're

        16       talking about two different kinds of contracting

        17       out, for the Corrections Department or the

        18       Division for Youth.  I think we've got -- the

        19       Corrections Department has facilities all over

        20       the state.  There are only six facilities that

        21       we're talking about that provide the services

        22       presently, secure services for the youth.

        23                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator Rath,











                                                             
4570

         1       if you will continue to yield.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         3       Rath, do you continue to yield?

         4                      SENATOR RATH:  Yes.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       continues to yield.

         7                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  It's my

         8       recollection that the reason we supported

         9       unanimously in this chamber Senator Nozzolio and

        10       Senator Abate's bill was not because there were

        11       so many correctional facilities and, therefore,

        12       why contract out, but it was because we thought

        13       the significance and the importance of seeing

        14       that facilities are securely run made it not

        15       only appropriate but made it necessary for us as

        16       a Legislature to say that security services for

        17       the protection of society and the protection of

        18       inmates should always be done by government,

        19       should not be privately done.

        20                      Why wouldn't that principle apply

        21       here?

        22                      SENATOR RATH:  Well, Senator, I

        23       believe that if a county decides that that's the











                                                             
4571

         1       way they want to provide the services that are

         2       mandated for them to provide for the young

         3       people in their county, then they can decide to

         4       do it that way.  But if they want to choose

         5       another option, we are giving them the

         6       opportunity to look at other options.

         7                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Good.  Thank

         8       you very much.

         9                      Mr. President, on the bill.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Leichter, on the bill.

        12                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  I think this

        13       bill specifically and directly contradicts the

        14       bill we passed before, and I think anybody who

        15       votes for this bill is sort of watering down the

        16       vote that they cast on the Nozzolio-Abate bill.

        17                      It's true, here we're talking

        18       about people in youth facilities, but as we well

        19       know, some of the people in those youth

        20       facilities need more careful security than

        21       people who are now in the state detention

        22       facilities.  Security is very important.

        23                      For society, it's also important











                                                             
4572

         1       that it be done correctly and properly for the

         2       people who are incarcerated.  I think if we say

         3       for people in state facilities we think it is

         4       inappropriate, I don't see why we would give

         5       local option to counties to depart from this

         6       principle.

         7                      This should be a universal

         8       principle.  It certainly makes sense to me to

         9       say that to see that security services are

        10       properly and correctly carried out that we want

        11       it done by government.  That should not be

        12       contracted out.

        13                      Having voted for the Nozzolio

        14       Abate bill, I don't see how I could vote for

        15       your bill, Senator Rath.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        17       any other Senator wishing to speak on this

        18       bill?

        19                      SENATOR ABATE:  If I could just

        20       explain my vote.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        22       Secretary will read the last section.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This











                                                             
4573

         1       act shall take effect immediately.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         3       roll.

         4                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         5                      Senator Abate to explain her

         6       vote.

         7                      SENATOR ABATE:  Yes, as Senator

         8       Leichter was absolutely on the mark, I could

         9       support this legislation if it carved out those

        10       responsibilities within DFY like DOCS or other

        11       correction facilities whose responsibility is to

        12       secure those facilities.  We talked about how

        13       sensitive a function security is, whether it's

        14       the peace officers in correction facilities or

        15       individuals assigned to secure DFY facilities.

        16                      These are not ordinary functions

        17       that can be contracted out to for-profit

        18       organizations.  It requires the skills and

        19       training, sometimes a career path.  As we stated

        20       before when we sponsored and supported the other

        21       bill, there are certain positions like police

        22       officers.  They are the core function of

        23       government and should remain within the function











                                                             
4574

         1       of government.  So as we supported that other

         2       bill, I believe we have to defeat this bill

         3       unless an amendment is made to carve out the

         4       security functions at DFY.

         5                      I have to oppose the bill today.

         6       I invite the sponsor to look at future

         7       amendments.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Abate will be recorded in the negative.

        10                      Announce the results.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

        12       the negative on Calendar Number 656, Senator

        13       Abate, Connor, Espada, Lachman, Leichter,

        14       Markowitz, Montgomery, Onorato, Paterson, Smith,

        15       Stachowski, Stavisky and Waldon.  Ayes 41, nays

        16       13.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        18       is passed.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       657, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 6785, an act

        21       to amend the General Municipal Law, in relation

        22       to authorizing an increase in the charge that

        23       may be imposed for a return check.











                                                             
4575

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         2       Secretary will read the last section.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         4       act shall take effect on the 90th day.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         6       roll.

         7                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        10       is passed.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       669, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 5077, an

        13       act to amend the State Administrative Procedure

        14       Act, in relation to requiring a private property

        15       rights protection.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       Leichter.

        18                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  I was going to

        19       ask for an explanation, but Senator Paterson

        20       has.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       Johnson, an explanation of Calendar Number 669

        23       has been asked for by Senator Paterson and











                                                             
4576

         1       Senator Leichter.

         2                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Mr. President,

         3       I could give a very good explanation if I had my

         4       folder here.  It's on its way.  But suffice it

         5       to say that the original draft of the

         6       Declaration of Independence brought forth

         7       protection of life, liberty and property.  It

         8       was changed even then, say, to mean life,

         9       liberty and pursuit of happiness.

        10                      Well, some people's happiness is

        11       owning property and using property in a way

        12       which suits them and which doesn't bother other

        13       people; but in recent years, of course, we've

        14       had a plethora of legislation which essentially

        15       diminishes the right to use your property as you

        16       see fit even when it doesn't affect anyone

        17       else.

        18                      It seems government now has a

        19       larger right and use of your property than you

        20       do yourself.  There have been many horror

        21       stories about people having their life savings

        22       destroyed by some bureaucratic action which

        23       perhaps doesn't benefit anyone but satisfies the











                                                             
4577

         1       interest of certain groups who feel it is the

         2       job of the anointed to tell everyone else what

         3       to do with their lives and their property.

         4                      Mr. President, I don't feel that

         5       way, and I feel that we do need some protection,

         6       some oversight, some looking at the possible

         7       effects of laws, rules and regulations, before

         8       they are put into effect in order to protect the

         9       rights of those who own the property and pay

        10       taxes on the property and feel that they have

        11       certain objectives to use that property with

        12       which government is capriciously interfering.

        13                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, thank

        14       you.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Leichter.

        17                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, where

        18       did this bill originate?  Is this something that

        19       came from the Montana Militia?

        20                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Mr. President,

        21       I think Senator Leichter has an interesting

        22       question there.  I don't think that's where it

        23       came from, but I think there is no doubt about











                                                             
4578

         1       it that people who feel aggrieved by actions of

         2       government in some cases feel the only solution

         3       is to resort to use of arms.  I don't believe

         4       that, Mr. President.  I believe the opposite is

         5       true, and I believe it's up to the government to

         6       put in place proper laws that we do not

         7       disaffect great numbers of our electorate, of

         8       our citizenry to which they feel there's no

         9       recourse except the recourse of arms.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Leichter.

        12                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator

        13       Johnson, if you would be so good as to continue

        14       to yield.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Johnson, do you continue to yield?

        17                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  And I

        18       apologize if I, you know, make sort of a snide

        19       comment about the bill, but I'm sort of puzzled

        20       by it because, Senator, it's my understanding

        21       now that both under the New York and the U.S.

        22       Constitution that if there is a taking of

        23       property that that may not be done except under











                                                             
4579

         1       due process of law.

         2                      Is that not the case?

         3                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  It's kind of

         4       interesting because -- because there are many

         5       people who don't agree with the operation of the

         6       law, whether it's due process or not, and I will

         7       just give you a little example.

         8                      We have an area in Long Island

         9       called the Pine Barrens.  There was a lot of

        10       agitation to protect the Pine Barrens.  What we

        11       actually did was take tens of thousands of acres

        12       of property and put it constructively in the

        13       public domain.  We didn't buy the property.  We

        14       just said you can't use it for anything, and

        15       people are paying taxes on that.  They have

        16       owned that property for years.  They are very

        17       upset.  They're hiring lawyers, trying to sue,

        18       because they feel they have had a taking by

        19       government.

        20                      You know, the Constitution says

        21       private property shall not be taken for public

        22       use without just compensation.  Nobody bought

        23       their property, Senator.  Just said, "We created











                                                             
4580

         1       a new area in which nobody can use their

         2       property, and do what you want to us," and now

         3       they are going to have to resort to the courts.

         4       They are not being protected by the Constitution

         5       which they think protects them.

         6                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  If Senator

         7       Johnson will continue to yield.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Johnson, do you continue to yield?

        10                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator

        11       Johnson, are you trying to upset all of the

        12       zoning laws that we have in the state of New

        13       York and the land use law?  Because it could

        14       well happen, Senator, that somebody buys a piece

        15       of property and that government comes along and

        16       it zones the property in a particular way.  It

        17       may say you can't have a glue factory there.

        18       Are you saying that the person is then in a

        19       position to say, "Well, that's exactly what I

        20       wanted to do.  I wanted to have a glue factory

        21       there, and now that is an unlawful taking"?

        22                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Senator, you

        23       know there is no question that there are a lot











                                                             
4581

         1       of laws that we have not -- that we have passed

         2       that diminished property rights to some extent.

         3       Zoning is one of those property rights.

         4       Sometimes I wonder about zoning, whether it

         5       protects us or whether it simply makes an

         6       opportunity for a lawyer to figure out a way to

         7       subvert or go around that zoning, so he can make

         8       himself a living.  That's a question that's

         9       always bothered me.  We're not talking about

        10       that today.

        11                      I think what we're saying here,

        12       Senator, is we're going to amend the

        13       Administrative Procedure Act to say, if the rule

        14       makers see when they make their rules that there

        15       would be a substantial diminishing of property

        16       rights, then they have to consult with the

        17       Attorney General to see if this would, indeed,

        18       be serious enough to call it a taking and in

        19       what manner they are going to compensate the

        20       property owners who are affected by this

        21       regulation.

        22                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator

        23       Johnson, if you will continue to yield.











                                                             
4582

         1                      Senator, I think there is a

         2       problem or an area where maybe we need

         3       legislation, and I want to get to that in a

         4       moment, but I don't think your bill does

         5       anything like what you say it does.

         6                      If I read your bill, it defines

         7       private property right protection analysis.

         8       This is Section 202(e), starting at line 14 on

         9       page 1.  It says, "A constitutional taking shall

        10       mean that due to an agency's rule private

        11       property could be deemed taken by operation of

        12       such rule."  Now, when you say "taken," are you

        13       referring to a transfer of title.

        14                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  No.  We're

        15       talking about a de facto taking, when the

        16       property cannot be utilized for any substantial

        17       benefit by the owner, that would be considered a

        18       taking and, as such, would be a violation of law

        19       without being compensated under our

        20       Constitution.

        21                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  With all due

        22       respect, Senator, that isn't what it says.  It

        23       says, "a taking."  "Taking," I think is a fairly











                                                             
4583

         1       clear word.  You don't say de facto taking.  You

         2       don't say an impairment of property rights.  It

         3       seems to me that you say -- you say "taken".

         4       "Taken" means transfer of title.  Transfer of

         5       title, the state or whoever takes the property,

         6       if it's a local government or so on, both under

         7       the state Constitution and under the federal

         8       Constitution, can only do so under due process

         9       of law, and they have to compensate the owner

        10       for the fair property value.

        11                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Senator, if you

        12       would further enlighten me by making reference

        13       to my original situation, which is not the

        14       genesis of this bill but the Suffolk County Pine

        15       Barrens, where the government said, "You can not

        16       develop this land," is that a taking or what is

        17       it?  They still own the property.  They can't

        18       use it for anything.  Is that a taking?  Nobody

        19       will buy it because there's no -- in fact, it

        20       was bought by the government, actually.  It was

        21       bought by the government or was told, "You can

        22       not develop any property in this area."  There's

        23       both things.  Eventually, the government plans











                                                             
4584

         1       to buy this property but they haven't bought it

         2       yet.  So, meanwhile, they say you can't use it

         3       for anything.  Is that a taking?  I think it's

         4       essentially a taking because they're told they

         5       can't use it and, "Some day we'll buy it when we

         6       get the money and we'll pay you for it."

         7       Meanwhile, what is it?

         8                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  It's

         9       interesting -

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Leichter, you are asking Senator Johnson to

        12       continue to yield?

        13                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yes.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       Johnson, do you continue to yield?

        16                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Yes.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        18       yields.

        19                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator

        20       Johnson, it's interesting, because yesterday, at

        21       a town meeting, afterwards, one of my

        22       constituents came up to me, said, "You got to

        23       help me.  There's a lot of people like me who











                                                             
4585

         1       are constituents of yours.  We have property in

         2       the Pine Barrens, and they are taking it and

         3       they are not going to compensate us."  I said,

         4       "My dear constituent, that's impossible.  They

         5       can't do that under the law."

         6                      But now that I listen to you, I

         7       understand what it is that she was talking

         8       about, and what it is -- tell me if I'm correct

         9        -- that we have said, and I guess we passed

        10       state legislation on it that said that -- or

        11       authorized Suffolk County to take the property,

        12       and I guess Suffolk County has said we're going

        13       to take the property but it said we're going to

        14       take it ten years from now, fifteen years from

        15       now.  In the meantime, these owners can't build

        16       on it, and what you are saying is they can't be

        17       compensated at the present time, or at least you

        18       believe that under the current law they can't be

        19       compensated at the present time, while there

        20       obviously has been an impairment of the value of

        21       their property.  Is that what you are aiming

        22       at?

        23                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  That's right.











                                                             
4586

         1       That's why I tell you it's de jure de facto.

         2       It's the fact that you can't use their property.

         3                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr.

         4       President.  On the -- on the -

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Leichter, on the bill.

         7                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  On the bill.

         8       Well, I think we have come a long way, Senator

         9       Johnson, from the Montana militia, and I think

        10        -- in all fairness, I think you have put your

        11       finger on what is a problem.  It's a problem

        12       that is in sort of an emerging area of the law

        13       where we are developing a concept known as

        14       constructive taking, where, in effect,

        15       government takes certain action which really so

        16       impairs the owner's property rights that the

        17       property has lost its value, and I think there's

        18       a place for a bill.

        19                      But I think you could have a

        20       totally different and much more effective bill,

        21       Senator.  I really submit to you that this bill,

        22       well intentioned as it is, doesn't deal with the

        23       problem.  The difficulty is in New York State,











                                                             
4587

         1       the Court of Appeals, years ago, took the

         2       position that there can be no constructive

         3       taking, that you have to have an actual taking.

         4                      Now, that has been -- both in New

         5       York and on the federal level, that concept has

         6       been changed, and there were recent U.S. Supreme

         7       Court decisions, one of them, I think, involving

         8       -- trying to remember.  I think it was a

         9       property out West, where there was a particular

        10       zoning ordinance which the Court found

        11       unreasonable and which so diminished the value

        12       of the property that the U.S. Supreme Court said

        13       this was a constructive taking and, under the

        14       5th Amendment or the 14th Amendment,

        15       compensation had to be paid.

        16                      I would say that rather than go

        17       through the complicated procedure of rule making

        18       which I don't think attacks it, it may make a

        19       lot of sense for us to pass a bill which says

        20       that there can be constructive taking of

        21       property to try to define what constructive

        22       taking of property is, because I think there are

        23       instances where -- I agree with you -- where











                                                             
4588

         1       government has taken such action that it's

         2       really made it impossible for the property owner

         3       to receive any value of the property.

         4                      I will give you an example which

         5       is not quite my district, but there's something

         6       called the 42nd Street Redevelopment plan that's

         7       run by the UDC.  In 1983, they announced that

         8       they were going to take property as part of the

         9       renewal of 42nd Street.  It's now 1996.  They

        10       haven't taken the property.  They recently came

        11       out with a statement saying that they think they

        12       will take the property in the year 2007.  In the

        13       meantime, the owner can't sell his property.

        14                      If you will yield to a question.

        15       I assume you want to address that case where it

        16       certainly seems unjust to keep the owner from

        17       getting the benefit that he wants from his

        18       property.  Is that what you have in mind?

        19                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Senator, yes.

        20       That's it, and while I -- I do have something on

        21       the second page here, Senator, how to determine

        22       when a rule making has taking implications, et

        23       cetera.











                                                             
4589

         1                      I might also add as another

         2       aside, and this would be part of my response to

         3       you, that the federal government has gone about

         4       these things in a different way by saying,

         5       essentially, that if you diminish the property

         6       value by 25 percent or more it's a taking and

         7       you have to pay for the property.

         8                      So there are many -- many irons

         9       in the fire right now.  We're trying to deal

        10       with the takings by agency regulations, takings

        11       by law, and so forth.  This is just one solution

        12       which we have come up with, Senator.  I think

        13       it's a step in the right direction, although

        14       certainly other bills could be drafted to deal

        15       with the situation.  I would certainly be

        16       interested in anybody else's initiative in this

        17       field.

        18                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator

        19       Johnson, if you would yield to another question.

        20                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Yes.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       yields.

        23                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Are you really











                                                             
4590

         1        -- I wonder whether you're really dealing with

         2       the Pine Barrens situation or whether you're

         3       dealing with a section where a local government

         4       does this sort of prohibitive action.  In the

         5       Pine Barrens, isn't it the action of Suffolk

         6       County that made this property either worthless

         7       or substantially less valuable?

         8                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Yeah, it was an

         9       action of this Legislature which did that, and

        10       we're all a party to it, and we understand that.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Right.

        12                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  You know?  And

        13       this is just dealing, essentially, with agency

        14       rule making, which has been another source of

        15       problem, rule making many times in excess of

        16       that legally permitted by law but, nevertheless,

        17       which affects the person and he has to fight to

        18       regain those rights.

        19                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, if

        20       you would yield again.  If your bill were law

        21       now, it would do absolutely nothing for the

        22       people in the Pine Barrens because that was by

        23       operation of the State Legislature, maybe











                                                             
4591

         1       implemented by Suffolk County.  There was no

         2       state agency that did it.

         3                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Precisely.  And

         4       I said to you that was an aside.  The Pine

         5       Barrens was an illustration of how government

         6       takes and diminishes our use of property without

         7       compensation, but this bill doesn't deal with

         8       that.  This bill deals with administrative

         9       agencies, regulatory agencies.

        10                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  But, Senator,

        11       if you will continue to yield.

        12                      You agree with me the problem is

        13       not just state agencies.  It can also be local

        14       government.  It can be, as you pointed out, this

        15       very state Legislature that did something that

        16       probably denied people their property rights.

        17                      Senator Johnson, my question is

        18       why not draft a bill that deals with

        19       constructive taking -- and I think that would be

        20       very appropriate -- but then apply it across the

        21       state?  Why just state agencies?  Why shouldn't

        22       it apply also to local governments, and even

        23       this Legislature?  Why don't we then protect all











                                                             
4592

         1       property owners?

         2                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Well, Senator,

         3       I think we should.  I certainly think that

         4       agencies going beyond the statute which they

         5       intend to implement, probably they are at

         6       fault.  We're at fault in some cases.  Maybe we

         7       should consider other legislation such as the

         8       federal legislation which deals with the

         9       diminishing of property rights, irrespective of

        10       what level of government or what agency puts

        11       that in place.  I certainly agree with you.

        12                      As I made reference in my

        13       original discussion, the Declaration of

        14       Independence made some reference to life,

        15       liberty, and property, and we put down pursuit

        16       of happiness instead.  That was the consensus

        17       opinion.  But I think your life and your liberty

        18       are considerably enhanced by the right to use

        19       your property as you see fit.

        20                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President,

        21       on the bill.

        22                      I have no problem at all with

        23       Senator Johnson's broad statement of rights and











                                                             
4593

         1       liberties.  In fact, now that we go into the

         2       bill and I see what he is aiming at, I think

         3       there is a problem, and I think it cries for

         4       correction.

         5                      I would urge Senator Johnson very

         6       strongly to withdraw this bill, to have it apply

         7       across this state, because I think his approach

         8       is very convoluted to do it by administrative

         9       agencies.  I haven't studied the bill

        10       carefully.  I just read it as we were debating

        11       it.  But I'm not sure that you're protecting

        12       property owners, as you would.

        13                      I would strongly urge you, in

        14       view of the fact that I think, Senator Johnson,

        15       that our Court of Appeals has not gone as far as

        16       the U.S. Supreme Court on this issue.  Of

        17       course, the U.S. Supreme Court decision

        18       certainly applied also to local, to all the

        19       states, but it seems to me that while I'm not

        20       always in agreement with this Court that they

        21       set forth some very good definitions as to what

        22       constitutes a constructive taking.

        23                      It may make a lot of sense to use











                                                             
4594

         1       that language to put it in the statute, to have

         2       it apply -- don't depend on the rule making,

         3       that there be this rule making and then the

         4       agency would have to determine it, but let's

         5       give the authority to the courts of this state

         6       where there is this sort of taking as I

         7       described on 42nd Street.  And, I'm not as

         8       familiar with the Pine Barrens situation, but as

         9       you described it, it may be the same thing, and

        10       it may be unfair that these people have no

        11       recourse with the courts at the present time,

        12       and give them recourse.

        13                      I certainly agree with you that

        14       certain action of government that is directed at

        15       particular owners and denies them their

        16       ownership rights ought to be compensated.  I

        17       think government has a right do it, but I think

        18       government then has an obligation to pay for it,

        19       and I wouldn't approach it through rule making.

        20       I would just authorize the courts of this state,

        21       the Court of Claims, to hear these cases, and I

        22       would think that would be a much better, much

        23       clearer way to proceed, Senator Johnson.











                                                             
4595

         1                      I would be very happy to work

         2       with you on it because I had recent occasion, as

         3       I told you, on the situation involving somebody

         4       on 42nd Street who came to me and said,

         5       "Leichter, it's not fair.  In '83 they came to

         6       me and said they were going to take my

         7       property.  Now it's 1996.  Last year, they said

         8       they weren't going to take it until the year

         9       2002 or 2007, I forget which it is, and I can't

        10       use my property.  Nobody will buy it because

        11       they know the state is eventually going to come

        12       in or it may not come in.  Why shouldn't I have

        13       the right to be compensated?"

        14                      I researched the issue briefly,

        15       and I thought there was a real question whether

        16       the courts would entertain such a case.  Maybe

        17       we ought to tell them that they should.  I would

        18       think that's a much better approach and much

        19       broader than your bill.  I would be happy to

        20       work with you on that.

        21                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Senator, I

        22       appreciate the offer.  I'm glad you are

        23       sensitive to it, and it only takes an











                                                             
4596

         1       illustration in our own back yard to demonstrate

         2       that there's a need for some change to it.

         3                      There's one problem with suing.

         4       The government's got all the lawyers and all the

         5       time in the world.  Some people have finite

         6       lifetimes and finite economic resources and

         7       can't go ahead with all the lawsuits they need

         8       to defend their own rights in instances like

         9       this.

        10                      So we're asking for a rule to be

        11       analyzed beforehand and see if it has

        12       constitutional taking implications; and if it

        13       does, consultation with the Attorney General and

        14       decide whether these rules are appropriate or

        15       not, and instead of forcing people, if their

        16       property is diminished and they can't use it, to

        17       go to court and try to outlive the government,

        18       we would like to have these rules analyzed

        19       beforehand so that negative rules don't take

        20       place which impact people in a harmful way and

        21       without any particular benefit perhaps to the

        22       state or society as a whole.

        23                      Senator, I think it's good, but I











                                                             
4597

         1       think it's time we acted on these things.  I

         2       certainly welcome Senator Leichter's interest,

         3       and I would like to work with him on future

         4       legislation, perhaps similar to the federal

         5       legislation which sets a dollar amount or

         6       percentage amount of diminution which would be

         7       compensated promptly.  But this bill, I think,

         8       should go in the interim, in order to get the

         9       message out that this Legislature is zealous in

        10       protecting the property rights of the citizens

        11       of our state.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Dollinger.

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        15       President, just on the bill briefly.

        16                      I agree with Senator Leichter.  I

        17       think that the concept that we need is a better

        18       definition of constructive taking.

        19                      The other thing I disagree with

        20       this bill, Mr. President, is the inclusion of

        21       the phrase, "private property."  It doesn't just

        22       affect real property in the Pine Barrens but, my

        23       gosh, it affects everything.  Every tax is a











                                                             
4598

         1       taking of my private property and everybody

         2       else's.  Would a tax be subject to this

         3       constitutional review since you are taking

         4       people's money?

         5                      What about leash laws?  You are

         6       obviously curbing their ability to use their

         7       private property, their dog, and where it can

         8       go.  What about noise restrictions?  We put

         9       noise restrictions all the time.  Agencies put

        10       noise restrictions all the time.  That obviously

        11       interferes with private property, with personal

        12       property.  Your ability to run a lawn mower at

        13       1:00 o'clock in the morning, your ability to

        14       blow your horn in the neighborhood at 10:00

        15       o'clock at night.

        16                      It seems to me that this is far

        17       too broad and is really a baseball bat going

        18       after a significant fly but nonetheless a fly.

        19       The other thing is, with all due respect,

        20       Senator Johnson, if what you want to avoid is

        21       litigation, you are dumping an enormous amount

        22       of time and effort into the regulatory process.

        23       This bill will cost a fortune for the Attorney











                                                             
4599

         1       General and for the Department at issue to do

         2       the kind of detailed analysis.

         3                      This bill, if it became law,

         4       would virtually void the ability of the state to

         5       put any regulations on anything.  While there

         6       may be some people in this chamber who favor

         7       that approach, let them stand up and say that.

         8       Let's not do it through a subterfuge of an

         9       overly complicated and, frankly, in my opinion

        10       largely wasteful effort that would be required

        11       from this bill.

        12                      If it's an unconstitutional

        13       taking, sue.  The courts of this state have

        14       always upheld property rights, have always had a

        15       broad definition of property rights in this

        16       state.  If we want to change that and give them

        17       further guidance, let's do what Senator Leichter

        18       said.  But in the meantime, let's not do

        19       something as complicated and as overblown as

        20       this.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       Oppenheimer.

        23                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  Thank you.











                                                             
4600

         1                      Mr. President, I just want to

         2       underscore what has already been said, which is

         3       that, you know, there is a problem which has

         4       been expressed concerning the taking of land,

         5       the fair market value for that land once it's

         6       been targeted.  But to discuss mitigation

         7       actions, to discuss alternatives to the proposed

         8       actions, I mean this gets us into such an

         9       unwieldy state that each agency that has to do

        10       this is going to find themselves overwhelmed.

        11       There is no way that each agency will be able to

        12       establish guidelines, particularly now that

        13       we're cutting back on the number of people in

        14       our agencies and indeed in the environmental

        15       arena in the Department of Environmental

        16       Conservation.  We have been cutting back

        17       sizably.  There is no way that this could be

        18       handled by the limited staff, and we're not in

        19       an expanding mode at the present time as far as

        20       our employment by the state government.

        21                      It's just so unwieldy that it

        22       would very badly impact the environment, and

        23       that is why the Environmental Planning Lobby,











                                                             
4601

         1       now known as the Environmental Advocates, gives

         2       this three smokestacks because it will simply

         3       tie their hands forever under this new

         4       burdensome, unnecessary regulation.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

         6       any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?

         7                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Mr. President.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Yes,

         9       Senator Johnson.

        10                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  I would just

        11       like to correct a misapprehension which Senator

        12       Dollinger enjoys for the moment but which he

        13       will not enjoy subsequently, because on the

        14       first page of this bill, it doesn't refer to

        15       your dog doing his business on the sidewalk as a

        16       constitutional right which will be enhanced or

        17       diminished in any way by this bill.

        18                      This says, "For the purposes of

        19       this section, private property shall mean all

        20       real or personal property in this state that is

        21       protected by either the 5th or the 14th

        22       Amendment of the Constitution of the United

        23       States or Section 7 of Article I of the New York











                                                             
4602

         1       State Constitution.

         2                      So those are the items of

         3       property which are protected and not other

         4       extraneous things which were referred to

         5       previously.

         6                      Thank you.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         8       Secretary will read the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        10       act shall take effect on the 180th day.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        12       roll.

        13                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        14                      Senator Paterson to explain his

        15       vote.

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr. President,

        17       we would like a slow roll call on this.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Are there

        19       five members in the chamber who would like to

        20       see a slow roll call?

        21                      Seeing five stand, the Secretary

        22       will call the roll.

        23                      Senator Johnson.











                                                             
4603

         1                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Mr. President,

         2       I would like you to withdraw the roll call.  Lay

         3       the bill aside.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Roll call

         5       is withdrawn.  The bill is laid aside by the

         6       sponsor for the day.

         7                      Secretary will continue to call

         8       the controversial calendar.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       680, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 2591B, an act

        11       to amend the Public Authorities Law and the

        12       Administrative Code of the City of New York, in

        13       relation to establishing the Committee on

        14       Personal Security.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        16       Levy, Senator Leichter has asked for an

        17       explanation of Calendar Number 680.

        18                      SENATOR LEVY:  Senator Leichter,

        19       I think that after we talked about this bill

        20       last year, you voted for the bill.  As a result

        21       of the -- the genesis of this bill has to do

        22       with the merger of the Transit Authority Police

        23       Department into the New York City Police











                                                             
4604

         1       Department, and what our concern was, as I'm

         2       sure you and the other people who represent the

         3       City as well as people who represent the suburbs

         4       and those that don't represent -- visitors who

         5       come to the City and use the Transit Authority

         6       from outside the state of New York, is that we

         7       have an oversight -- we have an oversight on the

         8       continuing crime problem in the subway system

         9       and with buses in the City of New York, and what

        10       this bill does is to require the Authority as

        11       well as the constituent agencies, the Long

        12       Island Rail Road and Metro-North, to have

        13       standing committees within the operation or the

        14       Authority to provide continuing oversight.

        15                      Thank God, today, crime in our

        16       mass transit system downstate is escalating

        17       downward, and let's pray that the numbers

        18       continue to move in that direction, but this is

        19       a safeguard so that there is a continuing

        20       oversight, and these committees are designed to

        21       provide that oversight; and if, heaven forbid,

        22       things go in the other direction, that we've got

        23       a persistent, continuing oversight to be sure











                                                             
4605

         1       we're dealing with the problems.

         2                      And this bill is an outgrowth of

         3       a very, very extensive report we did on crime in

         4       the New York City subway and bus systems when

         5       crime escalated out of control in the late '80s,

         6       and we didn't have then Commissioner Bratton who

         7       headed the Transit Authority Police Department

         8       and Chief O'Connor to deal with the problems.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Leichter.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yes, Mr.

        12       President.  If Senator Levy would yield, please.

        13                      SENATOR LEVY:  Yes, certainly.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        15       yields.

        16                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator, the

        17       problem I have with this bill -- and it's set

        18       forth well in a memorandum of opposition by the

        19       New York Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

        20       There's another memorandum of opposition by the

        21       city of New York.  I think they both feel that

        22       it's an infringement and an interference with

        23       the city of New York which now, as you know, has











                                                             
4606

         1       taken over the operation of the Transit

         2       Authority Police.  Whether they should or

         3       shouldn't have, that issue has been settled, and

         4       the city of New York believes, as does the

         5       Chamber of Commerce and Industry, that this will

         6       just create problems because you will have in a

         7       sense divided responsibility and divided

         8       authority over the policing of the subways and

         9       the buses in the City of New York.

        10                      SENATOR LEVY:  I will be happy to

        11       respond to that.  Number one, the memorandum of

        12       opposition that comes from the City Chamber of

        13       Commerce, obviously the genesis of the -- of

        14       that memorandum is Robert Kiley, and former head

        15       of the Authority Kiley.  It was on his watch -

        16       it was on his watch when crime escalated out of

        17       control in the Transit Authority in the

        18       operations of the Transit Authority, and he put

        19       his head in the sand and didn't provide

        20       leadership to deal with this problem when he was

        21       there, and he obviously doesn't like this

        22       legislation, and, obviously, the mayor doesn't

        23       like it, because there's -- there will be a











                                                             
4607

         1       continuing oversight that relates to crime,

         2       whether it be in the subway system or at the bus

         3       system, and that type of oversight goes at its

         4       heart as to whether there should have been an

         5       independent Transit Authority Police Department

         6       to continue the job in fighting crime in the

         7       system or a merger, and that's why the mayor

         8       doesn't like the bill.

         9                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr. President,

        10       on the bill.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Leichter, on the bill.

        13                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator Levy

        14       is indeed correct.  I voted for it last year.

        15       But last year, the merger hadn't been achieved

        16       yet.  I wasn't one of those who felt that the

        17       merger would be in the interest of the riders of

        18       the City subway and buses or people who lived in

        19       the New York City public housing projects.  It

        20       may well be that I was wrong because I think, so

        21       far, the merger has worked out reasonably well,

        22       and I think crime, indeed, in the subways and

        23       buses even before the merger, has significantly











                                                             
4608

         1       declined.

         2                      SENATOR LEVY:  But, Senator

         3       Leichter, all this bill does is to require the

         4       Authority to have a committee, whether it's with

         5       the Transit Authority, the Long Island Rail Road

         6       or Metro-North, to continue to provide oversight

         7       on how crime is being dealt with, whether it's

         8       the Long Island Rail Road Police Department, the

         9       Metro-North Police Department, and the City

        10       Police Department.

        11                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Senator Levy,

        12       the answer to that is that either you're doing

        13       -- if all your bill does is to set up a

        14       committee that doesn't do anything and doesn't

        15       mean anything, I don't know why you put in the

        16       bill.

        17                      SENATOR LEVY:  Senator Leichter,

        18       these are -

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        20       Gentlemen!  Gentlemen!  I'd appreciate it if we

        21       go through a question and answer.  Apparently,

        22       you don't have the interest of many other people

        23       other than the two of you and I, because the











                                                             
4609

         1       noise level in this room is extremely high, but

         2       I would appreciate it if you would keep the

         3       questioning and answering going through the

         4       chair.

         5                      SENATOR LEVY:  Senator Leichter,

         6       this is not just another committee.  What it is

         7       is committees made up for the component agencies

         8       of the MTA, made up by members of the MTA Board

         9       whose job as members of those committees will be

        10       to provide continuing oversight as to how the

        11       Long Island Rail Road is dealing with crime in

        12       the system, Metro-North is dealing with it and

        13       the Transit Authority.

        14                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  Mr.

        15       President.  Senator Levy, thank you.  I

        16       appreciate what you are trying to do.  I think

        17       that the objections that have been voiced by the

        18       City of New York and the Chamber of Commerce are

        19       well taken.

        20                      First of all, I don't know

        21       whether it's appropriate or necessary for this

        22       body to tell the MTA what committees to set up

        23       and who should be on the committees.  That's











                                                             
4610

         1       really a function of the members of the MTA.  If

         2       they fail to carry out their duties, if they

         3       don't have their requisite numbers of committees

         4       that they need in order to divide up the work

         5       among them, then maybe we need other members,

         6       but I would certainly think that they could

         7       function without our telling them you must have

         8       a committee on this and a committee on that.

         9                      But I think the real purpose of

        10       this committee is to have certain supervision

        11       and control over police function of the subways

        12       and the buses which really are the prerogatives

        13       of the New York City Police Department.

        14                      I just want to point out that

        15       last year this bill was opposed by Senators

        16       DeFrancisco, DiCarlo, Hoffmann, Holland, and

        17       Maltese.  I think, Senator, since the merger has

        18       now been accomplished, it's gone ahead, it seems

        19       to be working.  The mayor says don't interfere

        20       with us in this regard.  I mean, I find -- I'm

        21       sort of sorry for Rudy Giuliani.  All this time

        22       in this Legislature all he's got to defend him

        23       is Franz Leichter.  He's got to do a little











                                                             
4611

         1       better than that, so I would hope that other

         2       members of his party would defend him.  He has

         3       the right to govern the city of New York, as

         4       every mayor should have that right.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

         6       will read the last section.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 5.  This

         8       act shall take effect on the 30th day.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        10       will read the last section.

        11                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Before I

        12       explain my vote, on the bill.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       DiCarlo.

        15                      SENATOR DiCARLO:  Senator

        16       Leichter, I agree with you.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        18       Secretary will read the last section.

        19                      SENATOR LEVY:  Explain my vote.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        21       will read the last section.

        22                      SENATOR LEVY:  Yeah.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 5.  This











                                                             
4612

         1       act shall take effect on the 30th day.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         3       roll.

         4                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Levy to explain his vote.

         7                      SENATOR LEVY:  Yes, Senator

         8       Leichter, I hope you understood that this bill

         9       does not -- this bill not only provides for a

        10       committee to have oversight over the Transit

        11       Authority, it also deals with Metro-North and

        12       the Long Island Rail Road.  The mayor may be

        13       personalizing as it relates to the Transit

        14       Authority portion of this bill, but this is a

        15       comprehensive bill dealing with all of the

        16       components of the system.

        17                      I vote aye.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        19       Levy will be recorded in the affirmative.

        20                      Announce the results.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

        22       the negative on Calendar Number 680, Senators

        23       DeFrancisco, DiCarlo, Goodman, Leichter,











                                                             
4613

         1       Onorato, Seward.  Ayes 50, nays 6.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         3       is passed.

         4                      Senator Oppenheimer, why do you

         5       rise?

         6                      SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:  I'd

         7       appreciate being recorded in the negative with

         8       unanimous consent on Calendar 656.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

        10       objection, hearing no objection, Senator

        11       Oppenheimer will be recorded in the negative on

        12       Calendar Number 656.

        13                      Secretary will continue to call

        14       the controversial calendar.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        16       731, by Senator Velella, Senate Print Number

        17       3763, an act to amend the Insurance Law, in

        18       relation to agent termination.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Secretary

        20       will read the last section.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        22       act shall take effect immediately.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the











                                                             
4614

         1       roll.

         2                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

         4       the results when tabulated.

         5                      SENATOR WALDON:  Mr. President.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         7       Waldon, to explain your vote?

         8                      SENATOR WALDON:  Are we beyond

         9       the point of -- of a question or two? I was busy

        10       at the time with my colleague.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Waldon, to explain his vote.

        13                      SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you very

        14       much, Mr. President, my colleagues.

        15                      I received a call from some of

        16       the people who live and work in my area who are

        17       insurance agents and they were deathly afraid

        18       that the reporting system permitted under this

        19       bill would cause them to lose a license to

        20       practice because they would have no recourse.

        21                      I wished the opportunity to ask

        22       Senator Velella about that, but when I heard

        23       from these groups of black businessmen, I have











                                                             
4615

         1       to be empathetic with their plight because they

         2       are so fearful of what this really means.

         3                      The first time I read the bill, I

         4       think it was last year, and voted on it, I did

         5       not see the nuances at all, but they are really,

         6       really concerned about it.  So as a result of

         7       those conversations and my now current review of

         8       the bill, I will have to listen to what they've

         9       said, listen to what they perceive as potential

        10       pain and suffering in terms of their ability to

        11       function as agents, and vote no.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       Waldon will be recorded in the negative.

        14                      Announce the results when

        15       tabulated.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

        17       the negative on Calendar Number 731 are Senators

        18       DeFrancisco, Dollinger, Espada, Seward, Smith,

        19       Waldon, also Senator Present.  Ayes 49, nays 7.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        21       is passed.

        22                      Senator Hoblock, that completes

        23       the controversial calendar.











                                                             
4616

         1                      SENATOR HOBLOCK:  Mr. President,

         2       is there any housekeeping?

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Yes,

         4       there is.  If we could return to motions and

         5       resolutions, Senator Farley.

         6                      SENATOR FARLEY:  Thank you, Mr.

         7       President.

         8                      On page 30, I offer the following

         9       amendments to Calendar Number 381, Senate Print

        10       3520 -- this is on behalf of Senator DeFrancisco

        11        -- and I ask that that bill retain its place on

        12       the Third Reading Calendar.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        14       Amendments are received and adopted.

        15                      We have some substitutions at the

        16       desk too, Senator Hoblock, if we could read

        17       those.  Ask the Secretary to read.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 44,

        19       Senator Lack moves to discharge from the

        20       Committee on Judiciary Assembly Bill Number

        21       8533-A and substitute it for the identical

        22       Senate Bill 6752.

        23                      On page 49, Senator Libous moves











                                                             
4617

         1       to discharge from the Committee on Mental Health

         2       and Developmental Disabilities Assembly Bill

         3       9826 and substitute it for the identical Senate

         4       Bill 6632.

         5                      On page 60, Senator Trunzo moves

         6       to discharge from the Committee on Civil Service

         7       and Pensions Assembly Bill 9403 and substitute

         8       it for the identical Senate Bill 7044.

         9                      On page 7, Senator Farley moves

        10       to discharge from the Committee on Local

        11       Government Assembly Bill 9678 and substitute it

        12       for the identical Senate Bill 6721.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        14       Substitutions are ordered.

        15                      Senator Hoblock.

        16                      SENATOR HOBLOCK:  Mr. President,

        17       can we stand at ease for a few minutes, please.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senate

        19       will stand at ease for a few moments.

        20                      (The Senate stood at ease from

        21       4:44 p.m. until 4:53 p.m.)

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senate

        23       will come to order.











                                                             
4618

         1                      Chair recognizes Senator Skelos.

         2                      SENATOR SKELOS:  There will be an

         3       immediate meeting of the Finance Committee in

         4       Room 332 of the Capitol.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

         6       will be an immediate meeting of the Finance

         7       Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room

         8       332.  Immediate meeting of the Senate Finance

         9       Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room

        10       332.  Senate will continue to stand at ease.

        11                      (The Senate stood at ease from

        12       4:54 p.m. until 6:20 p.m.)

        13                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President, I

        14       just want us to know we should be meeting

        15       shortly.  Unfortunately, the messages are not up

        16       from the second floor yet.  I do want to

        17       apologize to the members for keeping them

        18       waiting, but the messages will be here shortly,

        19       and we do appreciate the members' indulgence.

        20       So if we could just stand at ease for a short

        21       moment.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  We'll

        23       stand at ease.











                                                             
4619

         1                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Please recognize

         2       Senator Cook.

         3                      SENATOR COOK:  Could I be

         4       recorded in the negative on Calendar Number 731,

         5       please.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

         7       objection, hearing no objection, Senator Cook

         8       will be recorded in the negative on Calendar

         9       Number 731.  The Senate will continue to stand

        10       at ease.

        11                      (The Senate stood at ease from

        12       6:22 p.m. until 6:44 p.m.)

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        14       Senate will come to order.

        15                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        16       if we could return to reports of standing

        17       committees for the report of the Finance

        18       Committee.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There's

        20       one at the desk.  I'll ask the Secretary to

        21       read.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Stafford,

        23       from the Committee on Finance, offers up the











                                                             
4620

         1       following bill directly for third reading:

         2                      Senate Bill 7504, by the Commit

         3       tee on Rules, an act making an appropriation for

         4       the support of government.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move we accept

         6       the report of the Finance Committee.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Motion is

         8       to accept the report of the Finance Committee.

         9       All those in favor signify by saying aye.

        10                      (Response of "Aye.")

        11                      Opposed nay.

        12                      (There was no response.)

        13                      The message is accepted.

        14                      SENATOR SKELOS:  At this time,

        15       I'd ask if we could take up 7504.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Ask the

        17       Secretary to road.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Senate Bill 7504,

        19       by the Committee on Rules, an act making

        20       appropriation for the support of government.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        22       Skelos.

        23                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,











                                                             
4621

         1       is there a message of necessity and appropri

         2       ation at the desk?

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

         4       is.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move we accept

         6       the message.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The motion

         8       is to accept the message of necessity and

         9       appropriation.  All those in favor signify by

        10       saying Aye.

        11                      (Response of "Aye.")

        12                      Opposed nay.

        13                      (There was no response.)

        14                      The message is accepted.

        15                      Secretary will read the last

        16       section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 18.  This

        18       act shall take effect April 1st, 1996.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        20       roll.

        21                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Announce

        23       the results.











                                                             
4622

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 57.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         3       is passed.

         4                      Senator Skelos.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         6       again on behalf of Senator Bruno, appreciate

         7       very much the members' patience in waiting to

         8       receive the message.

         9                      Is there any other housekeeping

        10       at the desk?

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  All taken

        12       care of.

        13                      SENATOR SKELOS:  There being no

        14       further business, I move we adjourn until

        15       Tuesday, May 7th, at 3:00 p.m. sharp.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Without

        17       objection, the Senate stands adjourned until

        18       tomorrow, Tuesday, May 7, at 3:00 p.m. sharp.

        19                      (Whereupon at 6:45 p.m., the

        20       Senate adjourned.)

        21

        22

        23