Regular Session - July 2, 1996
9045
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 July 2, 1996
10 5:17 p.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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16
17 SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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9046
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senate will come to order. Ask the members to
4 find their places, the staff to find their
5 places. I'd ask everybody in the chamber to
6 rise and join me in saying the Pledge of
7 Allegiance and please stay standing for the
8 invocation.
9 (The assemblage repeated the
10 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
11 We're joined by Reverend Peter G.
12 Young of the Blessed Sacrament Church of Bolton
13 Landing for the invocation.
14 Father Young.
15 REVEREND PETER G. YOUNG: Thank
16 you, Senator.
17 While we prepare for the final
18 countdown of the budget decisions, may we pray
19 that the chamber will remember the hungry, the
20 homeless and those who are denied dignity and
21 those who have no hope, that this legislative
22 body will improve their condition and that our
23 compassionate efforts will remove the causes of
9047
1 their suffering. We ask You this now in Your
2 name forever and ever.
3 Thank you, Father Young.
4 Senator Skelos.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
6 there will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
7 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
9 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
10 Committee in the Majority Conference Room, Room
11 332. Immediate meeting of the Rules Committee
12 in the Majority Conference Room, Room 332.
13 Reading of the Journal.
14 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
15 Monday, July 1st. The Senate met pursuant to
16 adjournment, prayer by the Reverend Peter G.
17 Young, Blessed Sacrament Church, Bolton
18 Landing. The Journal of Sunday, June 30th, was
19 read and approved. On motion, the Senate
20 adjourned.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Hearing
22 no objection, the Journal stands approved as
23 read.
9048
1 Presentation of petitions.
2 Messages from the Assembly.
3 Messages from the Governor.
4 Reports of standing committees.
5 Reports of select committees.
6 Communications and reports from
7 state officers.
8 Motions and resolutions.
9 Senator Farley.
10 SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President,
11 on behalf of you, I wish to call up Senator
12 Kuhl's bill, Print Number 7755, recalled -
13 which was recalled from the Assembly which is
14 now at the desk.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the title.
17 THE SECRETARY: By the Committee
18 on Rules, Senate Print 7755, an act to authorize
19 the conveyance of permanent and temporary
20 easement.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Farley.
23 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to
9049
1 reconsider the vote upon which this bill was
2 passed.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
5 (The Secretary called the roll on
6 reconsideration.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
8 SENATOR FARLEY: I offer the
9 following amendments.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 amendments are received and adopted.
12 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
13 Senator Rath, I wish to call up her bill, Senate
14 Print 1280, recalled from the Assembly which is
15 now at the desk.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Secretary will read.
18 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Rath,
19 Senate Print 1280, an act to amend the General
20 Municipal Law.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Farley.
23 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to
9050
1 reconsider the vote.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
4 (The Secretary called the roll on
5 reconsideration.)
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Farley.
9 SENATOR FARLEY: I offer the
10 following amendments.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 amendments are received and adopted.
13 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
14 Senator Velella, Mr. President, I wish to call
15 up his bill, 4714 which was recalled from the
16 Assembly which is now at the desk.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Secretary will read.
19 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
20 Velella, Senate Print 4714, an act to amend the
21 Executive Law.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Farley.
9051
1 SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to
2 reconsider the vote by which this bill was
3 passed.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
6 (The Secretary called the roll on
7 reconsideration.)
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Farley.
11 SENATOR FARLEY: I now offer the
12 following amendments.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 amendments are received and adopted.
15 The Chair recognizes Senator
16 Tully.
17 SENATOR TULLY: Thank you, Mr.
18 President.
19 On behalf of Senator DeFrancisco,
20 I wish to call up his bill, Print Number 6052-A,
21 recalled from the Assembly which is now at the
22 desk.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9052
1 Secretary will read the title.
2 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
3 DeFrancisco, Senate Print 6052-A, an act to
4 amend the Real Property Tax Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Tully.
7 SENATOR TULLY: Yes, Mr.
8 President. I now move to reconsider the vote by
9 which this bill was passed.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
12 (The Secretary called the roll on
13 reconsideration.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Tully.
17 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I
18 now offer the following amendments.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 amendments are received and adopted.
21 Senator Tully.
22 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, on
23 behalf of Senator Skelos, I wish to call up his
9053
1 bill, Print Number 3450-A, recalled from the
2 Assembly which is now at the desk.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will read.
5 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
6 Skelos, Senate Print 3450-A, an act to amend the
7 Civil Practice Law and Rules.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Tully.
10 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I
11 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
12 bill was passed.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 Secretary call the roll on reconsideration.
15 (The Secretary called the roll on
16 reconsideration.)
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Tully.
20 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I
21 now offer the following amendments.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 amendments are received and adopted.
9054
1 Senator Tully.
2 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President,
3 again on behalf of Senator Skelos, I wish to
4 call up his bill, Print Number 7105, recalled
5 from the Assembly which is now at the desk.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Secretary will read the title.
8 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
9 Skelos, Senate Print 7105, an act to amend the
10 Penal Law.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Tully.
13 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I
14 now move to reconsider the vote by which this
15 bill was passed.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Secretary will call the roll on reconsideration.
18 (The Secretary called the roll on
19 reconsideration.)
20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Tully.
23 SENATOR TULLY: Mr. President, I
9055
1 now move to recommit the bill to the Committee
2 on Rules.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
4 is recommitted.
5 Senator Maziarz, we have one
6 substitution we'd like to address at this time.
7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
8 make the substitution.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 Secretary will read.
11 THE SECRETARY: On page 4,
12 Senator Marcellino moves to discharge from the
13 Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 11114-A
14 and substitute it for the identical Senate Bill
15 7642-A.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 substitution is ordered.
18 Senator Maziarz, that brings us
19 to the calendar.
20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
21 at this time may we please take up Calendar
22 Number 1015.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9056
1 Secretary will read Calendar Number 1015, by
2 Senator Maziarz.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 1015, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 7431-A,
5 an act to authorize the construction of new
6 school facilities in the city of Niagara Falls.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 11. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 Senator Maziarz.
18 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
19 at this time may we please take up Calendar
20 Number 1617, please.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Secretary will read the title to Calendar Number
23 1617, by Senator Marcellino.
9057
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 1617, substituted earlier today by the Assembly
3 Committee on Rules, Assembly Print 11114-A, an
4 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Secretary will read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 Senator Maziarz.
16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
17 is there any housekeeping at the desk?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We've
19 taken care of everything that was at the desk,
20 Senator Maziarz.
21 SENATOR MAZIARZ: At this time,
22 Mr. President, we'll wait for the report of the
23 Rules Committee.
9058
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Senate will stand at ease awaiting the report of
3 the Rules Committee.
4 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at
5 ease from 5:33 p.m. until 5:40 p.m.)
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Senate will come to order. Members please take
8 their places, the staff find their seats. Can
9 we have a little order in the house. If you
10 have to have a conversation, take it outside.
11 It's such a nice day.
12 Senator Maziarz.
13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr.
14 President.
15 May we please return to reports
16 of standing committees. I believe there's a
17 report from the Rules Committee at the desk.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
19 a report of the Rules Committee at the desk,
20 Senator Maziarz. We'll return to the order of
21 reports of standing committees.
22 The Secretary will read the
23 report of the Rules Committee.
9059
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
2 from the Committee on Rules, offers up the
3 following bills directly for third reading: By
4 Senator Leibell, Senate Print 2677, an act
5 authorizing the town of Southeast, Putnam
6 County;
7 By Senator Holland, Senate Print
8 6242-A, an act to amend the Social Services Law;
9 By Senator Maltese, Senate Print
10 6475, an act to amend the Administrative Code of
11 the city of New York;
12 By Senator Leibell, Senate Print
13 3747, an act to amend the Criminal Procedure
14 Law;
15 By Senator Skelos, Senate Print
16 7305, an act to amend the General Municipal Law;
17 By Senator Hannon, Senate Print
18 7557-A, an act to authorize the town of
19 Hempstead Park;
20 By Senator Smith, Senate Print
21 7610, an act to authorize the city of New York
22 to reconvey;
23 By Senator DiCarlo, Senate Print
9060
1 7629, an act to amend the retirement and Social
2 Security Law;
3 By Senator LaValle, Senate Print
4 7790, an act authorizing the sole assessor of
5 the town of Brookhaven;
6 By Senator Present, 7882, act to
7 amend Chapter 557 of the Laws of 1992;
8 By Senator Goodman, Senate Print
9 7635-B, an act to amend the Administrative Code
10 of the city of New York;
11 By Senator Johnson, Senate Print
12 7795-B, an act to amend the General Municipal
13 Law -- Business Law.
14 All bills directly for third
15 reading.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Maziarz.
18 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
19 I move to accept the report of the Rules
20 Committee.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 motion is to accept the report of the Rules
23 Committee. All those in favor signify by saying
9061
1 aye.
2 (Response of "Aye".)
3 Opposed, nay.
4 (There was no response.)
5 The Rules report is accepted.
6 Senator Maziarz.
7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,
8 may we please take up the non-controversial
9 reading of Supplemental Calendar Number 1.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary will read the non-controversial
12 reading of Senate Supplemental Calendar Number 1
13 which is on your desk with the bills.
14 The Secretary will read.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 524, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 2677, an
17 act authorizing the town of Southeast, Putnam
18 County.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
20 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
21 will read the last section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
23 act shall take effect immediately.
9062
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll.)
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
6 is passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 769, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 6242-A, an
9 act to amend the Social Services Law.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary will read the last section.
12 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
14 bill aside.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1674, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 6475, an
17 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city
18 of New York.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
21 bill aside.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 1687, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 3747, an
9063
1 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Secretary will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 1688, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 7305, an
14 act to amend the General Municipal Law.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
16 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
17 will read the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
9064
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 1689, by Senator Hannon -
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Leichter, why do you rise?
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry.
9 Did we pass Senate 3747?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. May I
12 have unanimous consent to be recorded in the
13 negative on that bill, please.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
15 objection, hearing no objection, Senator
16 Leichter will be recorded in the negative on
17 Calendar Number 1687.
18 The Secretary will continue to
19 read the non-controversial calendar.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1689, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 7557-A, an
22 act to authorize the town of Hempstead Park
23 District.
9065
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
2 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
3 will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 1690, Senator Smith moves to discharge from the
14 Committee on Rules Assembly Bill Number 7405-A
15 and substitute it for the identical Senate Bill
16 7610.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 substitution is ordered. The Secretary will
19 read the title.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1690, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,
22 Assembly Print 7405-A, an act authorizing the
23 city of New York to reconvey its interest.
9066
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
2 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
3 will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 1691, Senator DiCarlo moves to discharge from
14 the Committee on Rules Assembly Print 10885 and
15 substitute it for the identical Senate Bill
16 7629.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 substitution is ordered.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 substitution is ordered.
22 The Secretary will read the
23 title.
9067
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar 1691, by
2 the Assembly Committee on Rules, Assembly Print
3 10885, an act to amend the Retirement and Social
4 Security Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
6 bill aside.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 1692, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 7790, an
9 act authorizing the sole assessor of the town of
10 Brookhaven.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect immediately.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
16 roll.
17 (The Secretary called the roll.)
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
20 is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 1693, by Senator Present, Senate Print 7882, an
23 act to amend Chapter 557 of the Laws of 1992.
9068
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Secretary will read the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
10 is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 1694, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 7635-B,
13 an act to amend the Administrative Code of the
14 city of New York.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
16 local fiscal impact note at the desk. The
17 Secretary will read the last section.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Lay it aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
20 bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: 1695, Senator
22 Johnson moves to discharge from the Committee on
23 Rules Assembly Bill Number 10868-C and
9069
1 substitute it for the identical Senate Bill
2 7795-B.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 substitution is ordered.
5 The Secretary will read the
6 title.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 1695, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,
9 Assembly Print 10868-C, an act to amend the
10 General Municipal -- Business Law.
11 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
13 bill aside.
14 Senator Maziarz.
15 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr.
16 President.
17 Now may we have the reading of
18 the controversial supplemental calendar, please.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will read the controversial calendar,
21 Supplemental Calendar Number 1.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 769, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 6242-A, an
9070
1 act to amend the Social Services Law.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Holland, an explanation of Calendar Number 769
5 has been requested by Senator Leichter.
6 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, Mr.
7 President. This bill would allow social
8 services districts to pay for the cost of child
9 care for public assistance recipients directly
10 as is currently done for all other low income
11 families who qualify for child care subsidies.
12 It basically just allows them to,
13 instead of paying the individual or having the
14 individual pay first and then be reimbursed by
15 Social Services at what may take up to two
16 months, it says to Social Services, they pay the
17 provider so we can get them into child care
18 quicker and easier.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
20 if Senator Holland would yield.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Holland, do you yield to a question from Senator
23 Leichter?
9071
1 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator yields.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
5 assume, obviously, that the Social Service
6 Department has to approve the cost of the social
7 service -- I mean of the day care services that
8 are provided.
9 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: And as a
11 consequence of that, is there any limitation or
12 change as a result of this bill in a social
13 service -- social service recipient's choice of
14 day care?
15 SENATOR HOLLAND: They can still
16 use the same day care they could use before,
17 Senator. This is not to limit people. This is
18 to encourage them to work their way off the
19 system.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Okay. So
21 you're saying that all that this bill does is
22 authorize Social Service to pay it directly
23 rather than to pay it to the recipient who then
9072
1 pays to the day care provider.
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: To encourage
3 them to use day care and go to work because
4 sometimes they're not reimbursed for two
5 months. Therefore, they don't want to send
6 their children through the day care system.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
8 Holland, if you would be good enough to yield.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Holland, do you continue to yield?
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Senator continues to yield.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: You know, I've
15 heard that explanation in the Rules Committee
16 but, frankly, I have difficulty understanding.
17 I can certainly see it takes
18 Social Service two months or even longer maybe
19 to process, but why would they be able to
20 process where the payment is made directly to
21 the day care provider than they would to the
22 recipient? I mean, it would be the same
23 paperwork. So I -- I just have trouble
9073
1 accepting that explanation.
2 SENATOR HOLLAND: That's a good
3 question, Senator, and you may be correct. If
4 it takes them two months to pay the recipient,
5 it may take them two months to pay the provider,
6 but if the provider knows that the money is
7 coming from Social Services, maybe they have
8 more trust in that fact. They know they're
9 getting the money.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you'll -
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: Go ahead.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If you'll
13 continue to yield, Senator Holland -- and I
14 appreciate your -
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Holland, do you continue to yield?
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Yes, sir.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
19 Senator continues to yield.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- to put
21 forth this bill in good faith in trying to
22 achieve a purpose that I certainly endorse, but
23 I just want to make sure that, you know, there's
9074
1 no trick to this -- to this process. I'm not
2 suggesting you would trick us, but maybe Social
3 Service or somebody hasn't thought through all
4 of the implications of it.
5 What I understand then is that
6 the recipient would choose a day care provider
7 and would go to the Department and the
8 Department or the Social Service office would
9 then advise the provider, the day care provider,
10 Yes, we're going to cover that -- that service.
11 SENATOR HOLLAND: M-m h-m-m.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Now, the only
13 -- but that must -- presently that must be the
14 case, it would seem to me. The only difference
15 is the day care provider may be a little nervous
16 if the money goes to the recipient. The
17 recipient may have other obligations, may use
18 that money for other purposes. That, it would
19 seem to me, is the only explanation that makes
20 sense to me.
21 SENATOR HOLLAND: I'm sorry. I
22 was talking to someone else, Senator. Try once
23 more.
9075
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, the only
2 way that I could see that this in some way may
3 enhance recipients having day care services
4 provided is that they go -- they choose a day
5 care provider, then they go to the Social
6 Service office and say, I've chosen day care
7 provider X. The Social Service office says,
8 Okay, and they give some piece of paper to the
9 recipient which they take to the day care
10 office. The day care provider says, Good.
11 Enroll your kid, but how is that different than
12 the system presently except the day care
13 provider knows that the money is going to be
14 paid directly to the provider and there's no
15 risk that the recipient receiving the money may
16 divert it to some other uses.
17 SENATOR HOLLAND: Sounds like a
18 good answer to me.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, okay,
20 but it's not the answer that we first had, and
21 I'm just trying to understand the bill.
22 SENATOR HOLLAND: I think it is
23 the answer that we first had, Senator. I might
9076
1 also add that 29 different states already use
2 this system and it proves to increase the number
3 of people trying to work their way off the
4 system. It's not a new idea.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, that
6 -- that possibly -- that I can understand, if
7 that's the explanation, but the explanation that
8 was given in the Rules Committee and that you
9 initially gave was it's going to save a
10 two-month period in which payments are going to
11 be made, and that apparently, now that you and I
12 have discussed it, is not the case. There seems
13 to be another reason for it which may be
14 perfectly legitimate.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
18 act shall take effect on the first day of
19 October.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
9077
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
2 is passed.
3 The Secretary will continue to
4 read the controversial calendar.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 1674, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 6475, an
7 act to amend the Administrative Code of the city
8 of New York.
9 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Maltese, an explanation of Calendar Number 1674
12 has been requested by Senator Leichter.
13 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
14 this bill would amend the Administrative Code of
15 the city of New York in relation to providing
16 supervisor of the detective squad and commander
17 of the detective squad title to police sergeants
18 and lieutenants assigned to the detective or
19 Organized Crime Control Bureau and would -
20 therefore, would provide the police sergeants
21 and lieutenants who are assigned to these
22 specific bureaus while designated as the acting
23 commanders of these bureaus who would serve in
9078
1 these positions for 18 months or more, they
2 would automatically receive a new title and the
3 pay of the higher position.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Waldon.
6 SENATOR WALDON: Would the
7 Senator yield to a question or two?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Maltese, do you yield to a question from Senator
10 Waldon?
11 SENATOR MALTESE: Sure.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Senator yields.
14 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Maltese,
15 when these officers are assigned to these two
16 respective units, there is no restriction, to
17 your knowledge, is there, that they have to be
18 left there permanently?
19 SENATOR MALTESE: No.
20 SENATOR WALDON: Would the
21 gentleman continue to yield?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Maltese, do you continue to yield?
9079
1 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator continues to yield.
4 SENATOR WALDON: If that is true,
5 Senator Maltese, then a scenario whereby if
6 someone was not up to speed, was not a good
7 supervisor, that person's supervisor could
8 summarily remove this particular lieutenant or
9 sergeant; is that not your understanding?
10 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes, Mr.
11 President. That would be my understanding. At
12 the same time, these are among the most
13 difficult positions, and it would be my
14 understanding that no one serving in this
15 position for less than 18 months would be
16 entitled to this change of title and new
17 position. So it would seem to be that if you
18 leave them there for 18 months, obviously
19 they're doing a satisfactory job and, therefore,
20 they would thus be entitled to the title that
21 they have been, in fact, working under for 18
22 months, a year and a half.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9080
1 Waldon.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President,
3 may I please continue? Would the gentleman
4 continue to yield?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Maltese, do you continue to yield?
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Senator continues to yield.
10 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 Senator, you're supposed to allow
13 me to elicit that information.
14 SENATOR MALTESE: Oh, I see.
15 SENATOR WALDON: This is our
16 drill now. Question: Is it your understanding
17 that OCCB and the detective bureau, because of
18 the types of criminals that they go after, may
19 be in its own right the two most dangerous
20 assignments in the New York City Police
21 Department?
22 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
23 I wouldn't hazard a guess for fear of alienating
9081
1 or antagonizing the other people in other
2 bureaus but certainly they are among the most
3 hazardous.
4 SENATOR WALDON: If the gentleman
5 would yield to one or two more questions.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Maltese, do you continue to yield?
8 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 Senator continues to yield.
11 SENATOR WALDON: Senator Maltese,
12 are you familiar with the case that was commonly
13 known as the Statue of Liberty case which Frank
14 Thomas worked on and which Detective Ray Wood
15 became Detective Ray Wood from a uniformed
16 officer who was working undercover and was
17 promoted to first grade? Are you familiar with
18 that case?
19 SENATOR MALTESE: I am not -
20 obviously not as familiar as you are, Senator.
21 Perhaps you can elaborate on it.
22 SENATOR WALDON: Well, that was a
23 case whereby some dissident elements were going
9082
1 to blow up the Statue of Liberty and the Liberty
2 Bell and a whole host of other institutions and
3 symbols of America's greatness, and this person
4 undercover for a long period of time whom I grew
5 up with and who I know intimately and knew
6 intimately then in terms of our friendship from
7 being little kids growing up in the City until
8 our adulthood as police officers, did a heroic
9 job in terms of discovering the criminality
10 involved and helping and assisting the
11 department in the arrest.
12 You are familiar, Senator
13 Maltese, of the kinds of things which are
14 reported in the newspapers -- if I may continue,
15 Mr. President -- in regard to organized crime
16 and to terrorists and the World Trade Center's
17 bombing and a whole host of other issues, are
18 you not?
19 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
20 SENATOR WALDON: Is it -- Mr.
21 President, may I continue?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Maltese, do you continue to yield?
9083
1 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator continues to yield.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Is it your
5 understanding, Senator Maltese, that the people
6 who are the supervisors for the most part of
7 units assigned to those kinds of activities are
8 the sergeants and lieutenants working in OCCB
9 and in the detective bureau?
10 SENATOR MALTESE: That's correct,
11 Senator.
12 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
13 much, Senator Maltese.
14 Mr. President, if I may, on the
15 bill.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Waldon, on the bill.
18 SENATOR WALDON: I'm reluctant to
19 interfere with administrative policy of any
20 entity in City government. However, if you
21 allow someone to remain in such important and
22 for -- in many ways dangerous assignments as
23 OCCB and the bureau as a superior, then you are
9084
1 saying that they deserve, in my opinion,
2 promotion because they've been there. They've
3 done the job. They faced the dangerous
4 situations. They've coordinated the efforts of
5 their subordinates and, therefore, in my opinion
6 after 18 months, what we're really doing is just
7 admitting that this is a meritorious promotion.
8 So I see no reason that we should
9 not pass this proposal by Senator Maltese. I
10 see no reason that those who put their lives on
11 the line on a daily basis in very difficult and
12 dangerous situations should not be recognized.
13 All too often we recognize them when we attend
14 the funerals, and I think sometimes you ought to
15 recognize people for a job well done by giving
16 them some additional pay, especially in
17 situations of regard -- in regard to OCCB and
18 the detective bureau.
19 I applaud the good Senator for
20 what he is doing. I recognize that this is a
21 great and vital and valued effort and I support
22 it, and I encourage my colleagues also to vote
23 for this proposal.
9085
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
2 any other Senator wishing to speak on the
3 little?
4 Senator Leichter.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
6 with all due respect to the sponsor and my good
7 friend, Al Waldon, I respect these people as
8 much as you do, Senator Waldon, but, you know,
9 there's a division of functions and of roles.
10 We have an executive. We have a
11 Legislature. We have a judiciary, and you and I
12 may feel particular times that we'd like to see
13 something done by the executive. Sometimes we
14 feel the judiciary shouldn't do something in a
15 particular way, but that doesn't mean that we as
16 legislators or as a Legislature take on a role
17 and a function that isn't ours.
18 It may well be that if I were the
19 mayor of the city of New York or the police
20 commissioner or if you were the police
21 commissioner -- and incidentally, you'd make a
22 terrific police commissioner -- you would do
23 this and as police commissioner, you would be
9086
1 right in doing this, but I respectfully submit
2 that as a legislator, you're really stepping
3 into somebody else's jurisdiction, and we've
4 seen this bill before, similar bills and
5 sometimes I voted for it because, you know,
6 certainly the -- the tug of emotions for these
7 people is very strong, but when I voted for it I
8 was wrong, and it's so much clearer to me now,
9 and I really think that for us to say this is
10 how the City should compensate people and
11 somebody who's in a position for a certain
12 number of years or a certain number of months,
13 that as a matter of fairness and as a matter of
14 right, this is what they have to do, I think
15 that's intrusion into the jurisdiction, the
16 powers, the authority of the city of New York.
17 You know, the one thing that -
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Leichter.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: -- that always
21 surprises me -
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Leichter, excuse me just a minute. One of your
9087
1 colleagues wishes to be recognized.
2 Senator Waldon, why do you rise?
3 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, I
4 would like to ask Senator Leichter one small
5 question, if I may.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Do you
7 yield to a question from Senator Waldon?
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: You can even
9 ask a big one.
10 SENATOR WALDON: Well, it's a
11 small one.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Senator yields.
14 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, I
15 thank you. My colleague, Senator Leichter, I
16 thank you.
17 Senator, is there anything in
18 this proposal or anything that you heard from
19 our learned colleague, Senator Maltese, which
20 states that someone who is in this position, if
21 they don't warrant the promotion or if they are
22 not qualified for the promotion or if they
23 haven't paid their just dues and should be
9088
1 promoted, that prior to the culmination of the
2 18 months, that they cannot be removed?
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
4 Waldon, there's nothing in the bill that does
5 that, but what it means is -- what you're saying
6 is that you're putting the City in the position
7 of the police department where they have to say
8 to somebody who's holding a temporary assignment
9 that go back on the beat. That person may be
10 involved in an investigation that the police
11 commissioner wants him or her to continue. I
12 think you're forcing, frankly, a Hobson's choice
13 on the city of New York.
14 Now, maybe it's the right thing
15 to do, but I think that there are times that we
16 as a Legislature have to step back and say, We
17 are not the police commissioner. We are not the
18 mayor of the city of New York and the point,
19 Senator Waldon, that I was going to make to my
20 good friend, Senator Maltese, is just the
21 rampant, blatant inconsistency that I see.
22 You know, I hear from the other
23 side of the aisle and sometimes from this side
9089
1 of the aisle, Home rule. We believe in home
2 rule, and that's expressed in so many different
3 ways, and people get up and they say there's an
4 intrusion by Albany into the affairs of a
5 locality. What is a more blatant -- what is a
6 more blatant interference than this particular
7 bill? I mean, I have trouble conforming the
8 actions that the Majority takes with the bills
9 that I see before us.
10 I remember there was a bill
11 earlier this year, I think a constitutional
12 amendment, no unfunded mandate, and then Senator
13 Cook comes in with a bill. It's the mother of
14 all unfunded mandates. There doesn't seem to be
15 any consistency at all. Somebody -- not me, but
16 somebody would say, You guys are hypocritical.
17 You talk home rule and then any chance that you
18 get where you think it's to your political
19 advantage or because of the way that you would
20 run the police department, you take your big
21 mitts and you put it into the city of New York
22 and try to micro-manage the affairs of that
23 city.
9090
1 I just think it's wrong. I do
2 penance for every time I vote for one of these
3 bills. I'm not going to do it any longer
4 because I think it's clearly wrong. You can't
5 justify our telling the city of New York who
6 they're going to promote, how they're going to
7 serve temporary assignments and at what point
8 that assignment becomes permanent and the pay
9 that they're going to get. That's something
10 that the mayor has to decide. It's something
11 the police commissioner decides. It's not
12 something, Senator Maltese, for you and me in
13 our present position to decide.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
15 recognizes Senator Gold.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you, Mr.
17 President.
18 Mr. President, Senator Leichter
19 indicated that this bill could put the City into
20 a situation where it was a Hobson's choice was
21 his phrase. Somebody could be working on an
22 investigation and, if they let the person work
23 on the investigation under this bill, a person
9091
1 would get a permanent status so they may have to
2 put the guy back out on the beat.
3 Senator Leichter, that makes no
4 sense. If the person is in an investigation, I
5 would hope, God willing, they're qualified to do
6 that investigation. Otherwise, I don't know why
7 they're doing that to begin with and, Senator,
8 if the person is qualified to do the
9 investigations and they're qualified to do the
10 job, the city of New York ought to wake up.
11 Now, I understand what you said,
12 Senator Leichter, about micro-managing the City
13 and I appreciate that, and you've made a very
14 good case for that, but every once in a while we
15 have to send a message. We send a message on 9
16 millimeter guns, and I think thanks to the law
17 we passed, we woke up the City and we protected
18 police officers.
19 Now, this bill has passed a
20 number of times and yet the City doesn't wake
21 up. They shouldn't be taking people and putting
22 them in positions and keeping them there for
23 long periods of time hanging out on a rope, and
9092
1 it seems to me that all we're doing is saying to
2 the City, you know, give a little justice to
3 these people.
4 On the other hand, if they give
5 somebody a chance and they're there for a year,
6 9 months, 12, 15 months and it's not working
7 out, they can replace them with someone who
8 ought to be able to be there permanently.
9 I see nothing wrong with this
10 legislation. I think that the instances where
11 we try to, quotes, "micro-manage" the City are
12 pretty limited and, Senator Leichter, as a
13 matter of philosophy, I think you're probably
14 directly on point most of the time, but I think
15 this is a situation where I think we could have
16 a little rachmunas for the individuals that have
17 the job -- I'll spell that later -- and I'm
18 going to support the legislation.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Padavan.
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: Would Senator
22 Maltese yield to a question?
23 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
9093
1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, you
2 have the memo in opposition from the city of New
3 York, I assume.
4 SENATOR MALTESE: No, I do not.
5 I have a memo in opposition from the New York
6 State Conference of Mayors.
7 SENATOR PADAVAN: All right. Let
8 me share with you then one part of the City's
9 memo that I would like you to respond to. It's
10 a question of equity as far as they seem to
11 outline here and I'll read it.
12 It says, "The other sergeants and
13 lieutenants within the police department are
14 supervised and more than 22,000 police officers
15 are on patrol. In emergency service units, in
16 highway and traffic units and other similar
17 units would not be subject to the automatic
18 promotions contained in this bill." So they're
19 drawing attention to the fact that we produce an
20 inequity. Do you agree with that?
21 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
22 obviously if there are those who feel that these
23 other supervisors should be in the same role,
9094
1 then they should put legislation in to that
2 effect.
3 I felt that at the advice of
4 people who work in these positions and after
5 consulting with them, that they merited this
6 special treatment and, therefore, the
7 legislation only includes those specific
8 supervisory officers.
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, Senator,
10 the issue here that I'm trying to address with
11 regard to the City's position is that you -- and
12 I'm sure you would agree -- that there are many,
13 many situations within the police department,
14 particularly in certain parts of the City, where
15 those out on patrol in very hazardous areas are
16 just as in jeopardy, perhaps in some cases even
17 more so than those who fill the ranks of
18 detectives, and if that is the case -- and I
19 believe it to be so -- we'll all have a quarrel
20 with the basic goal here.
21 I think if we're going to do it,
22 we should do it for all of those in that
23 position and not segregate one part of the NYPD
9095
1 for special acknowledgment and at the same time
2 saying to the others, Well, you don't count. I
3 think that's unfair, and I think it should be
4 addressed.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
6 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
7 Senator DiCarlo.
8 SENATOR DiCARLO: Thank you, Mr.
9 President.
10 I have been agonizing over this
11 bill in the last ten minutes because I wasn't
12 aware this was coming out, and I wasn't sure
13 which way I was going to vote on this bill.
14 I had a very difficult time on
15 the PERB bill a few months ago, and I voted
16 against that and I voted against it, I think for
17 the right reasons, and I was leaning towards
18 voting against this bill also until I heard some
19 of the debate. So I was trying to hear my
20 colleagues speaking on this, and let me say that
21 based on comments made here today and the fact
22 that I think that the city of New York and the
23 police department should be fair to its
9096
1 employees in the police department, I have been
2 won over to the position of voting in support of
3 this legislation because I think there are two
4 different things, Senator Leichter, and you and
5 I were both in agreement on that other piece of
6 legislation, but I agree with Senator Gold on
7 this. This is different than the PERB bill.
8 This is something I think that is crying out for
9 justice and doing the right thing, and I support
10 this bill and I'll vote yes for this bill.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
12 any other speak... or Senator wishing to speak
13 on the bill?
14 (There was no response.)
15 Hearing none, the Secretary will
16 read the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
18 act shall take effect on the 180th day.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
20 a home rule message at the desk. Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll.)
23 Announce the results when
9097
1 tabulated.
2 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
3 the negative on Calendar Number 1674, Senators
4 Leichter and Padavan. Ayes 54, nays 2.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
6 is -
7 THE SECRETARY: Also, Senator
8 Goodman.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
10 is passed.
11 The Secretary will continue to
12 call the controversial calendar.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 1691, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,
15 Assembly Print 10885, an act to amend the
16 Retirement and Social Security Law.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Secretary will read the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9098
1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
3 is passed.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 1694, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 7635-B,
6 an act to amend the Administrative Code of the
7 city of New York.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
9 local fiscal impact note at the desk.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Explanation.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Goodman, an explanation has been requested by
13 Senator Leichter of Calendar Number 1694, Senate
14 Print 7635-B.
15 SENATOR GOODMAN: Thank you, Mr.
16 President.
17 Senator Leichter, this is a
18 complex piece of tax legislation, but I'll try
19 to outline to you the broad thrust of it, and
20 we'll work on any details you care to with
21 encyclopedic relevance. Do you wish to say
22 something?
23 Let me just tell you what the
9099
1 bill purports to do. I'll be done in a moment
2 and then you can pick it up from there, unless
3 your question be so narrow that it might save
4 the time of the members for me not to do this.
5 Is that your thought?
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Leichter.
8 SENATOR GOODMAN: I yield to
9 Senator Leichter.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
11 Goodman would yield. Senator, just when you
12 said it was such a complex bill -- and there was
13 only one aspect of it that I wanted to address.
14 So to save you and our colleagues the complexity
15 of the Tax Law, I thought I would just focus on
16 that one issue with your permission.
17 SENATOR GOODMAN: I would be
18 happy to have you do that.
19 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. My
20 concern is about that portion of the bill that
21 deals with -
22 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President,
23 I'm having difficulty hearing the Senator.
9100
1 Could we have a little order, please?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: If you
3 wait just a minute, we'll see if we can stare
4 the perpetrators of the noise down.
5 SENATOR GOODMAN: I would not
6 imply for a moment that the presiding justice of
7 the Court of Claims is in any way culpable in
8 this matter, Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Can you
10 hear now, Senator Goodman?
11 SENATOR GOODMAN: I think so, Mr.
12 President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Leichter, would you like to raise your question,
15 please.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Our president
17 has a powerful stare, indeed. One can almost
18 hear a pin drop.
19 SENATOR GOODMAN: It's a LASER
20 like disciplinary tool.
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: And I thank
22 you, Mr. President, because this is an important
23 issue that I know will have the interest of our
9101
1 colleagues.
2 I'm concerned about the income
3 plus compensation alternative tax base of the
4 general corporation taxes. As I understand, the
5 nature of the so-called reform is to permit
6 unlimited deductions for corporate salaries for
7 distributions to shareholders, and so on. Am I
8 correct in that understanding?
9 SENATOR GOODMAN: Substantially,
10 yes.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right.
12 Senator, would you agree with me that some of
13 the corporate compensation that we see these
14 days is exceedingly high?
15 SENATOR GOODMAN: Do you mean in
16 absolute terms or in relative terms, Senator?
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, let's
18 take the absolute first. Then we can take
19 the rel...
20 SENATOR GOODMAN: The numbers
21 appear to be very high, unless one analyzes the
22 basis on which they're arrived at, and I cannot
23 generalize. In some cases, yes. In some cases,
9102
1 no.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: All right. So
3 you would agree with me that in some instances
4 where we see corporate salaries of $100 million
5 or so -
6 SENATOR GOODMAN: No. I don't
7 think we've seen anything of that magnitude,
8 Senator. Actually, my last recollection is that
9 -- now, are you including stock options as part
10 of the compensation package?
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right.
12 SENATOR GOODMAN: It's certainly
13 nothing like 100 million. It might approach
14 half that with an option package which is still
15 a substantial number.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Right. And I
17 remember just, oh, maybe a month ago the New
18 York Times in their Sunday business section had
19 an article about corporations, relatively small
20 corporations losing money when, nevertheless,
21 the compensation -- the CEO seemed extremely
22 high. So there are certainly some cases.
23 My concern is that we will be
9103
1 sanctifying those high salaries, in some
2 instances, unreasonable salaries by permitting
3 full deduction irrespective of the business
4 justification for these high salaries.
5 I have no problem allowing
6 deductions if, indeed, there's a business reason
7 for it. If it's sheer greed and gluttony, I
8 don't know why the city of New York has to -
9 has to subsidize it in a sense or to confirm it
10 by allowing these unlimited deductions which
11 will now occur as a consequence of your bill.
12 SENATOR GOODMAN: Senator, let me
13 just see if I can address that in this fashion.
14 The bill, first of all, seeks to address a
15 curiosity which has arisen in recent days in
16 corporate compensation and titles. That is a
17 number of titles are essentially honorary and do
18 not bear any relationship to the actual
19 corporate responsibilities of those with the
20 titles.
21 I'm sure it's no news to you that
22 many people now have the stentorian title of
23 vice-president when, in fact, their duties do
9104
1 not remotely resemble those of someone in direct
2 line of succession with the presidency.
3 So that the bill tries to
4 eliminate from the compensation package those
5 people who have these titles that are largely
6 honorary in nature or semantic for the purpose
7 of impressing clients.
8 Now, as to the question of
9 whether there are -- is gluttony and greed, that
10 is a matter on which honest men could disagree.
11 I suspect that it may be a factor in all of
12 this, but I do not think that the taxing
13 authority in the City over which I presided for
14 some years, as you know, as Finance Commissioner
15 of the City, could be responsible for
16 determining which compensation is based on greed
17 and which is based upon merit, and I don't think
18 any construct that we could put together at the
19 legislative level could possibly ask a taxing
20 authority to do that.
21 So I'm not quite sure what your
22 thought is. Granting that a certain amount of
23 the money paid to executives maybe is excessive,
9105
1 we will have the question which is a very real
2 one of how to determine what proportion of that
3 is, in fact, excessive and what proportion is
4 legitimate from corporation to corporation.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
6 Goodman, if you'll continue to yield, please.
7 SENATOR GOODMAN: Yes, I will.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Senator yields.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: When you were
11 Commissioner of Finance, I believe the law is as
12 it is presently and as you're trying to change
13 it now; is that correct?
14 SENATOR GOODMAN: That's my best
15 recollection, yes.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: And did you
17 administer it fairly?
18 SENATOR GOODMAN: One would hope
19 so, but needless to say that since we're dealing
20 with about $15 billion of other people's money,
21 I would not venture to say to you without the
22 need for a chiropractor to adjust my arm after
23 self-congratulatory pats on the back, that in
9106
1 all cases I did so with complete fairness. I
2 try.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
4 want to say that I never heard any complaint
5 whatsoever on the decisions that you had to make
6 as you apply the income plus compensation
7 alternative tax base.
8 My point is that fair-minded
9 people like yourself and people of ability like
10 yourself can, indeed, administer that law
11 fairly, as I think you did.
12 SENATOR GOODMAN: I'm not
13 certainly going to argue with that proposition,
14 Senator. All I can do is compliment you on your
15 perspicacity.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
17 on the bill.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Leichter, on the bill.
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: It just seems
21 to me that maybe with all the tax reform that we
22 could do in the city of New York, the last one
23 that I would touch is the one which says that
9107
1 irrespective of the amount that's paid in
2 executive compensation that may be paid to
3 shareholders and distributions, and so on, that
4 you will not let the taxing authorities question
5 that to see whether it was a justified business
6 expense.
7 Now, all other business expenses
8 are subject to that test. I mean, you can't,
9 for instance, when you file your tax return say,
10 Well, I've spent $20 million because I took
11 everybody on the board of directors on a trip to
12 Monaco and then we went on to Italy and this and
13 that. I mean, you've got to justify this, and
14 taxing authorities and commissioners, such as
15 Roy Goodman was at one time, make that determin
16 ation. Sometimes they may make mistakes.
17 Sometimes they may be too harsh, but you can go
18 to the court, but now we're saying on corporate
19 compensation that that cannot be questioned,
20 that irrespective how much of a deduction is
21 taken for corporate compensation, that the
22 taxing authority must allow that.
23 Now, if that issue had risen 20
9108
1 years ago, it might not have been such a glaring
2 mistake as I believe it is now because I think
3 all of us are well aware that corporate
4 compensation in some instances -- not every
5 instance, some instances -- are just
6 unreasonable. I mean, the papers are full of it
7 every day and Senator Goodman very honestly
8 said, Yes. There may be some corporate
9 compensations that are unreasonable, but no
10 matter how unreasonable, under this bill, you're
11 going to be able to take a deduction.
12 So when the city of New York says
13 in its memo that this is going to save taxpayers
14 7 million in 1997 and 57 million by the year
15 2000, it isn't going to save taxpayers. It's
16 going to hurt taxpayers because those taxes are
17 going to have to be paid by the common person.
18 They're going to have to be paid by the guy who
19 carries a lunch pail or works in an office
20 building that doesn't carry a large corporate
21 title and doesn't get a large corporate salary.
22 I just think that that's -- that
23 that is an inexcusable gift and grant that we're
9109
1 making to corporations.
2 I would strongly urge that this
3 bill be defeated, at least that section of it.
4 There are other parts of it that I have no
5 problems with, but I think this is just an
6 unreasonable provision.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 13. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 Announce the results when
15 tabulated.
16 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
17 the negative on Calendar Number 1694, Senator
18 Leichter and Markowitz. Ayes 54, nays 2.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
20 is passed.
21 The Secretary will continue to
22 read.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9110
1 1695, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly
2 Committee on Rules, Assembly Print 10868-C, an
3 act to amend the General Business Law.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect September 1st.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
13 is passed.
14 Senator Lachman, why do you
15 rise?
16 SENATOR LACHMAN: I would like to
17 have an explanation on the bill.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You want
19 an explanation of -
20 SENATOR LACHMAN: 1695.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -
22 Calendar Number 1695. The motion is to
23 reconsider the vote by which the bill passed the
9111
1 house.
2 The Secretary will call the roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll on
4 reconsideration.)
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
7 is before the house.
8 Senator Johnson, Senator Lachman
9 has requested an explanation of Calendar Number
10 1695.
11 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
12 this bill raises the cap on the maximum charge
13 for dating services. It also includes a
14 consumer bill of rights, many other protections
15 for people who use these services.
16 It's very necessary to raise this
17 cap, Mr. President, because businesses have been
18 moving out of New York City and moving across to
19 New Jersey where there is no cap, providing the
20 same services, putting people out of business in
21 our fair city, and we would like to keep some of
22 those jobs and some of those businesses
23 functioning in our city and in our state, and I
9112
1 think it's a salutary bill. It's been gone over
2 more than once by the Assembly sponsors and
3 ourselves, and we think we have a very good bill
4 here.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Lachman.
7 SENATOR LACHMAN: Mr. President,
8 on the bill.
9 When this bill appeared before
10 the Consumer Protection Committee, it was a bill
11 without a cap. It had eliminated the $500 cap
12 and had not inserted a cap, and I'm delighted to
13 see there is an improvement in the bill, not
14 perfect, but an improvement. There is now a cap
15 of $1,000. There's an allowance for a prorated
16 refund, and it also allows New York City to have
17 enforcement powers and business fees.
18 I, therefore, unlike my vote in
19 the committee, will support this bill and
20 commend the Senator for allowing these changes
21 for improvement to take place, along with his
22 colleagues in the Assembly.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9113
1 Secretary will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
3 act shall take effect September 1st.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
9 is passed.
10 Senator Maziarz, that completes
11 the reading of the controversial calendar on
12 Senate Supplemental Calendar Number 1. What's
13 your pleasure?
14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr.
15 President.
16 Is there any housekeeping at the
17 desk?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No. All
19 the housekeeping has been taken care of, Senator
20 Maziarz.
21 SENATOR MAZIARZ: There being no
22 further business, Mr. President, I move that we
23 adjourn until 10:00 a.m., Wednesday, July the
9114
1 3rd.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The time
3 again, Senator Maziarz.
4 SENATOR MAZIARZ: 10:00 a.m.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Senate -- without objection, the Senate stands
7 adjourned until tomorrow, July 3rd, Wednesday,
8 at 10:00 a.m. Catch the time change. 10:00
9 a.m..
10 (Whereupon, at 6:25 p.m., the
11 Senate adjourned.)
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