Extraordinary Session - December 17, 1996
1
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 December 17, 1996
11 12:25 p.m.
12
13
14 EXTRAORDINARY SESSION
15
16
17
18 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President
19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
20
21
22
23
2
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
3 come to order. Would everyone please rise for
4 the Pledge of Allegiance.
5 (The assemblage repeated the
6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. )
7 The invocation today will be
8 given by Reverend Peter Young from the Blessed
9 Sacrament Church of Bolton Landing.
10 REVEREND PETER YOUNG: Let us
11 pray.
12 We pray for all our New York
13 State people that their wealth and power might
14 become a force for peace rather than conflict, a
15 source of hope rather than discontent, as an
16 agent of change of friendship rather than
17 enmity. May the actions of this Senate then be
18 that example. We ask You this in Your Name
19 forever and ever. Amen.
20 Thank you, Governor.
21 THE PRESIDENT: The reading of
22 the Journal. Oh, excuse me. The Chair hands
23 down a communication from the Governor.
3
1 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President,
2 I move that we waive the reading of the
3 proclamation.
4 THE PRESIDENT: Without
5 objection, the reading of the proclamation is
6 waived.
7 The Secretary will call the roll
8 to ascertain a quorum.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
10 (There was no audible response. )
11 Senator Alesi.
12 (There was no audible response. )
13 Senator Babbush.
14 (There was no audible response. )
15 Senator Bruno, here.
16 Senator Connor, here.
17 Senator Cook.
18 (There was no audible response.)
19 Senator DeFrancisco, here.
20 Senator DiCarlo.
21 SENATOR DiCARLO: Here.
22 THE SECRETARY: Senator
23 Dollinger.
4
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Here.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada.
3 (There was no audible response.)
4 Senator Farley. He's here.
5 Senator Gold, yes.
6 Senator Gonzalez.
7 (There was no audible response.)
8 Senator Goodman, here.
9 Senator Hannon.
10 SENATOR HANNON: Here.
11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoblock.
12 (There was no audible response.)
13 Senator Hoffmann.
14 SENATOR HOFFMANN: Here.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Holland.
16 (There was no audible response.)
17 Senator Johnson.
18 (There was no audible response.)
19 Senator Kruger, here.
20 Senator Kuhl, here.
21 Senator Lachman, here.
22 Senator Lack.
23 SENATOR LACK: Present.
5
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
2 SENATOR LARKIN: Present.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
4 SENATOR LAVALLE: Present.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell,
6 here.
7 Senator Leichter.
8 SENATOR LEICHTER: Here.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Levy,
10 here.
11 Senator Libous, here.
12 Senator Maltese, here.
13 Senator Marcellino, here.
14 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Present.
15 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
16 SENATOR MARCHI: Here.
17 THE SECRETARY: Senator
18 Markowitz, here.
19 Senator Maziarz.
20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Here.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator
22 Montgomery.
23 (There was no audible response. )
6
1 Senator Mendez, here.
2 Senator Nanula.
3 SENATOR NANULA: Here.
4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno, a
5 quorum is present. Senator Bruno.
6 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President,
7 at this time I would hand up the following
8 resolution and ask that its title be read and
9 move for its immediate adoption.
10 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
11 will read.
12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno,
13 Senate Resolution Number 1, appointing a
14 committee to inform the Governor that the Senate
15 is convened in extraordinary session.
16 THE PRESIDENT: The question is
17 on the resolution. All those in favor signify
18 by saying aye.
19 (Response of "Aye.")
20 Opposed nay.
21 (There was no response. )
22 The resolution is adopted. The
23 Chair appoints Senators Velella and Abate to
7
1 wait upon the Governor that the Senate is ready
2 to proceed.
3 Senator Bruno.
4 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President,
5 we're handing up another resolution, ask that
6 the title be read and move for its immediate
7 adoption.
8 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
9 will read.
10 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno,
11 Senate Resolution Number 2, appointing a
12 committee to inform the Assembly that the Senate
13 is convened in extraordinary session.
14 THE PRESIDENT: The question is
15 on the resolution. All those in favor signify by
16 saying aye.
17 (Response of "Aye.")
18 Opposed nay.
19 (There was no response. )
20 The resolution is adopted. The
21 Chair appoints Senators Kuhl and Seabrook to
22 wait upon the Assembly that the Senate is ready
23 to proceed.
8
1 Senator Bruno.
2 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President,
3 we are handing up another resolution, ask you to
4 read the title and we ask that it be immediately
5 adopted.
6 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
7 will read.
8 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno,
9 Senate Resolution, empowering the Temporary
10 President to appoint officers and employees
11 necessary for the extraordinary session.
12 THE PRESIDENT: The question is
13 on the resolution. All those in favor signify by
14 saying aye.
15 (Response of "Aye.")
16 Opposed nay.
17 (There was no response. )
18 The resolution is adopted.
19 Senator Bruno.
20 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President,
21 there is another resolution that we are handing
22 up and we are asking that the title be read and
23 move its immediate adoption.
9
1 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
2 will read.
3 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno,
4 Senate Resolution Number 4, providing for the
5 introduction of bills in the Senate during the
6 extraordinary session.
7 THE PRESIDENT: The question is
8 on the resolution. All those in favor signify
9 by saying aye.
10 (Response of "Aye.")
11 Opposed nay.
12 (There was no response. )
13 The resolution is adopted.
14 Senator Bruno.
15 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam President,
16 I'm going to ask that we recess this special
17 session and that we ask the Majority to join me
18 at an immediate conference in our conference
19 room, and I would suggest that we reconvene here
20 at 1:30? Can we be back here at 1:30 ready to
21 do our business?
22 THE PRESIDENT: There is an
23 immediate -- at 1:30 you said?
10
1 SENATOR BRUNO: Yeah, and I would
2 reconvene at 1:15.
3 THE PRESIDENT: There is an
4 immediate conference of the Majority in Room
5 332. The Senate will be in recess and reconvene
6 at 1:15.
7 SENATOR BRUNO: Would you
8 recognize Senator Mendez.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Mendez.
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Madam
11 President.
12 THE PRESIDENT: I can't hear
13 you. Just a minute.
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: There will be an
15 immediate conference of the Minority of this
16 chamber at Room 314.
17 THE PRESIDENT: There will be an
18 immediate conference of the Minority in Room
19 314. The Senate is recessed.
20 (Whereupon the Senate recessed at
21 12:35 p.m. until 2:05 p.m.)
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senate
23 will come to order.
11
1 Chair recognizes Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
3 on behalf of Senator Bruno, may I ask that the
4 recess -- we'll continue to be in recess, and at
5 this time if you could commence the regular
6 legislative session.
7 (The Extraordinary Session
8 continued in recess.)
9 ...At 8:03 p.m....
10 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Skelos.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: The regular
12 Senate session will continue to stand in recess
13 and at this time on behalf of Senator Bruno, I
14 would like to reconvene the extraordinary
15 session, and there will be an immediate meeting
16 of the Rules Committee in Room 332 of the
17 Capitol, and the extraordinary session of the
18 Senate will stand at ease awaiting the report of
19 the Rules Committee.
20 THE PRESIDENT: There will be an
21 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in Room
22 332, and the extraordinary session will stand at
23 ease. Thank you.
12
1 (Whereupon the Extraordinary
2 Session recessed from 8:05 p.m. to 8:11 p.m.)
3 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ:
4 Senator Skelos.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
6 if we could return to reports of standing
7 committees, I believe there's a report of the
8 Rules Committee at the desk. I ask that it be
9 read.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT MAZIARZ:
11 Reports of standing committees. Secretary will
12 read.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
14 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
15 following bills direct to third reading:
16 Extraordinary Session Print
17 Number 1, by Senator Padavan, an act to amend
18 the Education Law, in relation to the reform of
19 the system of school governance;
20 Extraordinary Bill Number 2, by
21 the Senate Committee on Rules, an act to amend
22 Chapter 166 of the Laws of 1991, amending the
23 Tax Law.
13
1 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
3 I move we accept the report of the Rules
4 Committee.
5 THE PRESIDENT: All in favor of
6 accepting the report of the Rules Committee,
7 signify by saying aye.
8 (Response of "Aye.")
9 Opposed nay.
10 (There was no response. )
11 The Rules report is accepted.
12 Senator Skelos.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
14 at this time would you call up Calendar Number
15 1816, Extraordinary Senate Bill Number 1.
16 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
17 will read.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 1, by Senator Padavan, Extraordinary Session
20 Print Number 1, an act to amend the Education
21 Law, in relation to the reform of the system of
22 school governance.
23 SENATOR GOLD: Explanation.
14
1 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
3 is there a message of necessity at the desk?
4 THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept.
6 THE PRESIDENT: All those in
7 favor of accepting, signify by saying aye.
8 (Response of "Aye.")
9 Opposed nay.
10 (There was no response. )
11 The message is accepted.
12 Senator Padavan.
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you,
14 Madam President.
15 The bill before us, in my recent
16 memory, has been subjected to and is the product
17 of more diverse input from such wide -- widely
18 placed entities and individuals that it's almost
19 a surprise that we're about to do it; but the
20 fact does remain that we have, virtually this
21 entire year, involved ourselves in discourse
22 with every one. Obviously both houses of the
23 Legislature and their staffs have labored
15
1 extensively in developing what is now before
2 us. The chancellor of the city of New York and
3 his representatives have extended themselves in
4 terms of providing input, guidance and
5 resources. The city of New York, the counsel to
6 the Governor's office, the Majority and
7 Minorities of both houses, the list of those who
8 have been involved in working on this bill would
9 fill a page.
10 In this house, however, I would
11 like to just point out two individuals who have
12 spent an inordinate amount of time over the last
13 several months in particular, and that's Jeff
14 Lovell and John Googas, who have worked mightily
15 to bring us to the point we are now at.
16 What I'd like to do is briefly
17 review for you the key salient provisions of
18 this bill. Before I do that, I'd like to point
19 out that much of what we now have before us was
20 recommended several years ago by the Marchi
21 Commission which worked for a year, made up of
22 professionals in the field of education, worked
23 for a year in developing recommendations to us
16
1 to act upon and many of those recommendations
2 were in the Marchi bill that we passed in 1993,
3 and many of those recommendations are now before
4 us in the bill we now have, and so in stating
5 that or reminding you of that, obviously we give
6 credit to those who have worked before us in
7 bringing this to fruition.
8 But here are some of the things
9 that this bill provides. It transfers oversight
10 of the election of community school boards to
11 the New York City Board of Elections. The
12 system that we now have has not worked
13 efficiently and certainly has been cumbersome to
14 say the least.
15 In the process of doing that, we
16 are mandating that we use the same machines, in
17 fact, that we use in all other elections rather
18 than these paper ballots, and we create a task
19 force to recommend to us by January of 1998
20 specific changes in the Election Law as it
21 relates to community school boards. There's
22 general agreement that this proportional system,
23 this cascading system of voting that takes days
17
1 to determine who the victors are is not only
2 ineffective but certainly in many instances
3 unfair. However, we are in the position of
4 having to consider what the capacity of the
5 Board of Elections is in any new system and
6 certainly what the Voting Rights Act would
7 require, and so this task force will be charged
8 with that responsibility. We have a luxury of
9 time because the next community school board
10 election will not be until 1999, so obviously
11 their doing this and getting back to us with
12 their recommendations will be in a timely
13 fashion.
14 We provide that anyone who is
15 guilty of any malfeasance associated with
16 community school board service would be
17 precluded and ineligible to serve on any
18 community school board. We will make public any
19 decisions of the Board of Elections in terms of
20 actions taken with respect to community school
21 board candidates.
22 We will require regular meetings,
23 at least quarterly minimally, between the
18
1 superintendents, the principals, the P-TAs and,
2 of course, the elected members of the school
3 boards and, as you see, as we go through this,
4 one of the things that become -- becomes quite
5 evident is our desire to open up this entire
6 system in every way imaginable and in as
7 productive a fashion as we could possibly do
8 that.
9 We will take away, and we will be
10 giving prerogatives to community school boards.
11 One of the things we will be taking away is
12 their ability to hire. We will require that the
13 chancellor establish screening and recruiting
14 procedures for those seeking to be candidates
15 for superintendent positions with required input
16 from parents, teachers, professionals within the
17 system.
18 We will require a code of ethics
19 similar to those found in and applicable to
20 other public officials and in the Election -
21 Public Officers Law.
22 One of the problems that we see
23 from time to time is that individuals seeking
19
1 elective positions on community school boards
2 are not properly versed in the educational
3 process and require training. We mandate in
4 this bill -- we mandate within six months after
5 an individual's election to a community school
6 board that he or she be trained in a fashion
7 that will make that person's contribution to the
8 community school board on which he or she serves
9 far more meaningful, far more productive.
10 The chancellor will be given
11 enhanced intervention and supervisory powers in
12 regard to failing schools and failing districts,
13 the ability for the chancellor to step in and to
14 remove individuals and to supersede school
15 districts where and when that is appropriate;
16 but I think at this juncture it's important at
17 least for me to say that we have 32 school
18 districts in the city of New York, community
19 school districts. By and large, those board
20 members, in my view and my experience and my
21 observation, do a good job. They're mostly
22 dedicated people, most of them parents who are
23 genuinely interested in a quality education for
20
1 their children and all the children of the city
2 of New York. But unfortunately, as we have
3 seen, there are a small number who do not
4 measure to that standard and have caused
5 embarrassment, and we read statements in the
6 media about scandalous school boards. Aside
7 from the fact that they are few in number, we
8 can not ignore them because they, in effect,
9 jeopardize, I believe, public confidence in the
10 entire system; and so what this bill will do is
11 provide an authority by the chancellor to step
12 in and to take appropriate action when it is
13 required.
14 We mandate the development of a
15 "parental bill of rights" and we prescribe
16 certain components of that bill of rights to be
17 in the bill: The right for a parent to know
18 what's going on in their schools; the right to
19 have access to all records; the right to have
20 input into the process; the right to know what
21 decisions are being made and why.
22 We will provide in each school
23 what someone referred to as school-based
21
1 councils and what are, in reality, school-based
2 management and shared decision-making entities
3 of parents and school professionals whose re
4 sponsibility it will be to develop recommen
5 dations on everything including curriculum from
6 the ground up to the principal, to the
7 superintendent, to the school board, to involve
8 them in a meaningful and productive manner.
9 We mandate the establishment of
10 fiscal monitors in each school district, which I
11 believe is an important ingredient in terms of
12 ensuring that the monies that are there are
13 spent wisely and effectively, prudently and to
14 the maximum value to the students who are served
15 by those funds.
16 We mandate audits by each
17 district, by the city comptroller again
18 providing further oversight to the financial
19 aspects of community school districts within the
20 city of New York.
21 One of the things that we felt
22 was essential, essential in terms of expanding
23 upon those positive aspects of decentralization,
22
1 is the establishment in each borough, a deputy
2 chancellor, accessible to the parents, the
3 superintendents, the principals, whose mandate
4 will be everything from curriculum to
5 transportation to the allocation of resources,
6 to the development of budgets and to be the
7 county's voice and, in talking with the
8 chancellor, he's delighted with that opportunity
9 of having in each borough a deputy with whom he
10 can work closely on behalf of the system and in
11 terms of the quality education that we're trying
12 to achieve.
13 Now, within this school
14 governance package, there is a lengthy section
15 dealing with the budgeting process, school-based
16 budget. Some call it transparent budgeting. We
17 are exposing to the sunlight and to everyone, by
18 mandate, not only where the money is coming
19 from, city, state and federal, but where it's
20 going, right down to the individual school.
21 Now, you may have read and seen
22 in the media recently the chancellor's
23 initiative in that regard in anticipation of
23
1 what we have here in this bill and by his own
2 initiative. It's called the school-based
3 reporting system. There is no excuse for anyone
4 not knowing what the relative amounts of state,
5 city and federal money are and how they change
6 from year to year, who's giving more, who's
7 giving less.
8 I know all of you share with me
9 the concern about criticisms that often come to
10 us, about inadequate state funding when year
11 after year we increase state aid to education.
12 Well, this will make it crystal clear as to
13 where that money is coming from and how much
14 and, even more importantly, where it's going.
15 We are doing something within
16 this legislation that is critically important
17 and it's strung throughout -- you find it on
18 every page, in every section -- and that we are
19 demanding accountability along with
20 responsibility by all levels of the system -
21 the principal, the superintendent, the school
22 board and the chancellor; but along with the
23 responsibility and accountability that we are
24
1 mandating in this reform bill, we are also
2 providing authority and that's a management
3 axiom that I think most people are familiar
4 with. You can't give or require accountability
5 and responsibility without the authority to make
6 it work, and so the additional powers that we
7 have provided the chancellor and the new
8 responsibilities we are giving the
9 superintendent in the monitoring of quality and
10 oversight on principals and others in the system
11 and school custodians, something we dealt with a
12 number of years ago that's reestablished in this
13 bill, are all geared in that direction.
14 Will this be a panacea? Well, I
15 don't think there's anything that's a panacea;
16 but will it provide the framework, the
17 mechanisms, the structure for an improved
18 educational system, a system that has over one
19 million students, a thousand buildings, the
20 largest school system in the world, almost a $9
21 billion budget, will it improve the performance
22 of that system? I think yes, and so we are here
23 with a bill that's agreed upon by both houses,
25
1 advanced by the Governor, supported by every
2 one, the mayor, the chancellor, the unions.
3 We're here today to do that. Long overdue, but
4 we're doing it.
5 Thank you, Madam President.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
7 if I could just interrupt for a moment to ask,
8 with the consent of the Minority, if we could
9 have the last section read for the purposes of
10 Senator DiCarlo voting.
11 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
12 section, please, for Senator DiCarlo.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 16. This
14 act shall take effect in 90 days.
15 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll for
16 Senator DiCarlo.
17 (The Secretary called the roll. )
18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator DiCarlo,
19 how do you vote?
20 SENATOR DiCARLO: I vote aye.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
22 Senator Marchi.
23 SENATOR MARCHI: Madam President,
26
1 I am -
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Could we
3 withdraw the roll call and continue the debate,
4 please.
5 SENATOR MARCHI: Madam President,
6 I am unable to support this bill at this time,
7 notwithstanding the deep respect I have for the
8 scholarship of its introducer, and I -- and I am
9 perfectly aware that he has a -- he has elicited
10 a feeling that it meets the needs of many of the
11 members of this house, and of the city of New
12 York.
13 However, I will be presenting a
14 bill in January providing for an independent
15 district and details of which I would not go
16 into now since you are considering a bill that
17 treats specifically a subject matter, certainly
18 in many ways a very commendable way.
19 So Madam President, I will not be
20 supporting this bill, but I will be presenting
21 one in January and with that, I believe those
22 who were associated should feel proud of their
23 work.
27
1 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
2 Senator Marchi.
3 Senator Goodman. Oh, Senator
4 Skelos, excuse me.
5 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, again,
6 Madam President, if we could have the last
7 section read. I had forgotten that Senator
8 Goodman wanted to vote also.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
10 section, please.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 16. This
12 act shall take effect in 90 days.
13 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Goodman,
16 how do you vote?
17 SENATOR GOODMAN: I vote in the
18 affirmative, Madam President.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Please withdraw
20 the roll call.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Withdraw the
22 roll.
23 Senator Waldon.
28
1 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
2 much, Madam President.
3 Would the gentleman from Queens
4 County yield to a question or two?
5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator, would
6 you -
7 SENATOR WALDON: Would the
8 Senator yield to a question or two?
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
10 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
11 much, Madam President.
12 Senator Padavan, I rise not only
13 on behalf of myself but on behalf of the school
14 boards which I represent which have called me
15 many times over the last few days to speak to
16 this issue, so you will hear some of my concerns
17 interspersed with some of their concerns, and I
18 appreciate your kindness in agreeing to respond
19 to the questions.
20 Is there any place in this bill
21 where the needs of the local educators are
22 addressed in terms of involvement and having an
23 impact on the process?
29
1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes. Either
2 you were not in the chamber or I was not
3 speaking loud enough, but I did -
4 SENATOR WALDON: Could you just
5 tell me?
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: I did talk at
7 some length about several aspects of this bill
8 that address this issue. By the way, you and I
9 share a school district, 29 specifically.
10 SENATOR WALDON: Yes.
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: And obviously I
12 received those same communications, and I've
13 read them all and I would say, by and large,
14 we've addressed all of their concerns, but with
15 regard to your specific question, we create
16 within this legislation what some people have
17 called school-based councils, mandatory, made up
18 of parents and professionals within the school,
19 individual school, with the -- not only the
20 responsibility but the authority to provide
21 input on every aspect of that school in terms of
22 budget, curriculum, in all decisions that might
23 be made with the principal and with the
30
1 superintendent. That's number one.
2 Number two, we provide for a
3 "parental bill of rights" which specifically in
4 the legislation outlines a number of areas that
5 would enhance the ability of parents in that
6 school district or any school district to become
7 involved and knowledgeable about what's going on
8 in their school.
9 In addition, the bill requires
10 resources be provided for the training -- I
11 mentioned earlier the training of community
12 school board members, but it also provides
13 resources for training of parents and allowing
14 them to become involved to the extent of the
15 level of their knowledge which sometimes can be
16 quite extensive with regard to the school
17 system.
18 So we have a number of areas
19 where parents and teachers within a given school
20 district will have more opportunity than they
21 ever had before to become involved in a
22 meaningful way.
23 SENATOR WALDON: Will the
31
1 gentleman continue to yield, Madam President?
2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator?
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
5 much, Madam President.
6 Senator Padavan, can you help me
7 because my understanding of this is that the
8 chancellor has ominous power?
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Has what?
10 SENATOR WALDON: Ominous.
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Ominous?
12 SENATOR WALDON: Ominous power.
13 He can supersede the decisions of the superin
14 tendent. He can supersede, or she can supersede
15 if it happens to be a female chancellor, the de
16 cisions of the local principals. The chancellor
17 will, in fact, control all appointments. The
18 local school boards will become merely advisory
19 with no true power and authority to do anything,
20 and ultimately if the chancellor is, in fact,
21 the appointee of the mayor, it is my
22 understanding subliminally that the true
23 chancellor of the school system, ergo, becomes
32
1 the mayor.
2 Can you edify me regarding those
3 concerns that I have?
4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator.
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, obviously
6 you've not had an opportunity -- I'm not being
7 critical when I say that -- to read the bill or
8 any of the memos, for instance, the one I have
9 here, but all had input from the chancellor; but
10 that categorization that you just presented is
11 difficult to answer because none of it is
12 applicable, in a sense.
13 Now, as I said before, we have
14 increased the authority of the chancellor to
15 intercede in those areas where there is
16 malfeasance and lack of performance and a lack
17 of doing the right thing for the children. I
18 also pointed out, however, that that's been only
19 historically applicable in a very limited number
20 of areas. In my view, your School Board 29 -
21 and I think that's the one you're referring to,
22 one that I also represent in part -- would have
23 no problem with anything in this bill because
33
1 the areas of curriculum, teaching, subject
2 areas, et cetera, et cetera, which is the most
3 important aspect of the community school board's
4 function as it relates to policy, is in this
5 bill.
6 Now, what we do take away from
7 them is the ability to hire anybody and,
8 frankly, I don't know who they've hired anyhow.
9 I've made some inquiries within my area and I
10 have parts of three school districts, 25, 26 and
11 29, and they tell me very directly that they've
12 never been involved in hiring anyone,
13 nevertheless in any inappropriate unethical
14 way. So we provide that, yes, we take away that
15 authority, but where it's been used, it's
16 invariably been misused so we're not really
17 taking away anything; but when it comes to the
18 issues of education and educational policy, that
19 certainly remains with the school boards.
20 Moreover, by training them more
21 -- well, they're not really being trained now.
22 There's nothing that says a member of the school
23 board must be trained. By mandating it and
34
1 providing the resources to do it with, we're
2 making them even more effective, which I think
3 is what we're all wanting to achieve.
4 Now, regard to the chancellor,
5 certainly he has to have authority. We can't
6 have it both ways. If we want to take away his
7 authority, then let's have -- eliminate him
8 entirely, him or her, and have independent
9 school districts or borough boards, but if
10 you're going to have a chancellor, as we have a
11 state Commissioner of Education who has the same
12 authority that we're giving the chancellor, by
13 the way in law, then we have to give him the
14 tools to do the job. We can't say, You are
15 accountable for the performance of every school
16 district, the level of achievement in terms of
17 educational standards, if we don't give him the
18 authority to put the right people in the right
19 job doing it.
20 There is a channel or chain of
21 communications here, a chain of authority and
22 responsibility. The chancellor, the
23 superintendents, the principals and the school
35
1 boards are there to provide policy and direction
2 at those levels, as the central board is there
3 -- and that's in the bill as well -- to deal
4 with issues of policy on a citywide basis and,
5 by the way, in the bill you will read
6 specifically the legal hiring authority is the
7 central board, not the chancellor.
8 Now, where he can step in and
9 remove someone, we provide some safeguards. For
10 instance, there is a right of appeal. As an
11 example, if he would wish to remove a
12 superintendent, that superintendent, under this
13 legislation, would have the right of appeal to
14 the central board, and we outline specifically
15 -- well, certainly specifically in terms of
16 that it cannot be done willy-nilly. It has to
17 be done for certainly a reason that is
18 defensible, so that's in there.
19 Does that answer your question?
20 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President,
21 may I continue?
22 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Waldon.
23 SENATOR WALDON: I appreciate
36
1 your attempt to answer the question, Senator
2 Padavan, and in part you did, in my opinion; in
3 part you did not. So let me clarify where I
4 think you did not answer the question.
5 I asked specifically was there a
6 nexus, a connection with the mayor of the city
7 of New York having really the authority and
8 control?
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: I understand,
10 Senator. First off, Senator, there's nothing in
11 this bill, nothing that gives the mayor any
12 authority over this system. The central board
13 exists as it has always existed. You know how
14 that works, I'm sure. They hire the chancellor
15 and there's no change here. Obviously, the
16 mayor and the City Council have a great deal to
17 do with the system when it comes to budget.
18 That's why there is a significant section in
19 this bill that bares open that process so that
20 we will know exactly how much the city is
21 providing and where it's going, as opposed to
22 state aid and federal aid. So to answer your
23 question directly, there is nothing in this
37
1 legislation that changes the mayor's
2 relationship that currently exists with the
3 board of education.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President,
5 if I may continue in responding to the Senator's
6 response to my inquiry.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Waldon.
8 SENATOR WALDON: One, in regard
9 to the reading of the bill, last week I called
10 here to Albany to ask for a copy of the bill so
11 that I would not be ignorant when I arrived and
12 would have had a chance to read it.
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: I understand.
14 SENATOR WALDON: I was told it
15 was not printed; I could not receive it. I got
16 up at 5:30 this morning and left for Albany. I
17 did not receive a copy of the bill until I was
18 in conference.
19 SENATOR PADAVAN: Let me
20 interrupt you. I understand what you're
21 saying. This bill was not printed until this
22 afternoon so none of us saw a printed bill. I
23 don't ascribe blame to that. As you know, we
38
1 were in negotiations with the Assembly, the
2 Governor, all the people that I mentioned at the
3 outset of my remarks here this evening.
4 However, there certainly has been
5 a great deal of public discussion in the media,
6 to say the least, on what we were about to do
7 today, but that's notwithstanding. I certainly
8 am happy to answer any questions you have.
9 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
10 much. Just while I'm clarifying and cleansing
11 my soul, I did read some of the memos and did
12 read all of the newspaper articles and did have
13 extensive conversation with some people in
14 unions in this city related to school situations
15 who are not happy with the bill, and I must tell
16 you, Senator Padavan -
17 SENATOR PADAVAN: May I inquire
18 what union that is, Senator?
19 SENATOR WALDON: Beg pardon?
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: May I inquire
21 what union that is?
22 SENATOR WALDON: One is Charles
23 Hughes, 372.
39
1 SENATOR SEABROOK: 372.
2 SENATOR WALDON: 372.
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: 372?
4 SENATOR WALDON: I must say that
5 UFT is really on board and have supported me,
6 and I hope this will not cause them to abandon
7 me on so much of the flotsam and jetsam of the
8 political seas of this city.
9 But to get back to the point I
10 wanted to make in all of this, I wanted to see
11 something in this bill that would address the
12 fact that our children are not being educated,
13 and let me explain to you what I mean by that,
14 because obviously you feel it has and, to some
15 extent, I must agree it does.
16 When I look at the statistics in
17 the city of New York, it is one of every four
18 children who enter high school who does not
19 graduate on time. It is my understanding that
20 the high school system is not covered here.
21 Two, when you said resources for training -
22 SENATOR PADAVAN: The high
23 schools are not covered?
40
1 SENATOR WALDON: Yes.
2 SENATOR PADAVAN: They are
3 covered. They're in the bill specifically in
4 terms of where responsibility lies even with
5 regard to the specialty high schools. That's
6 covered in this legislation.
7 SENATOR WALDON: O.K. So you're
8 telling me that there are resources to correct
9 the ills of the one child in school.
10 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, when
11 you say "resources" I think you mean budgetary
12 resources, is that correct?
13 SENATOR WALDON: Correct.
14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Obviously this
15 is not a budget bill. I said at one part of my
16 earlier remarks that resources are critical to
17 certainly the quality of our educational
18 system. We are not dealing with that issue
19 today. What we are providing for, however, is
20 the framework for knowing where those resources
21 are coming from, with how they are being spent
22 and to assure through structural rearrangements
23 of the system that we are getting the maximum
41
1 productivity from those resources.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Madam -- may I
3 continue, Madam President?
4 Senator, the point I was trying
5 to get to, and I apologize for going around
6 Robin Hood's barn and perhaps not being as
7 focused as I should be, is that there are
8 statements in this bill that I've had just an
9 opportunity to look at very quickly which say
10 that there will be training of the school board
11 members, there will be training of the teachers,
12 et cetera, et cetera.
13 Obviously the bill speaks to
14 resources.
15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
16 SENATOR WALDON: But obviously
17 the bill fails to speak to resources that will
18 correct the ills facing the city. The
19 understanding I have of the educational system
20 is that if we don't catch the children by the
21 third grade, we've lost them. I don't see
22 anything in here which would shore up the system
23 in that regard, and I'm going to quit in a
42
1 moment, but is there anything in this proviso
2 which says that we will address the needs of the
3 children who four -- the three out of four who
4 enter high school in the city of New York who do
5 not finish on time?
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: I think the
7 entire bill addresses that question, Senator.
8 If we improve the vessel by which we are
9 carrying our children forward in their
10 educational experience, then obviously we are
11 enhancing the net result. The net result is for
12 quality education. There's no other goal here
13 but to enhance the level and the quality of the
14 educational system in our city.
15 To repeat myself, we have a city
16 of over a million students, 1.1 million, over a
17 thousand buildings, the largest system in the
18 world. We've increased the population in the
19 last five years by about 150,000, over a quarter
20 million in the last ten years, largely due to
21 immigration. Our resources are strained, but
22 when we include issues and requirements of
23 fiscal monitors, of oversight by the
43
1 comptroller, of education -- training, rather,
2 of our people who are responsible to the system,
3 to our children, our goal in all of this, in all
4 of the 24 pages of this bill, is to improve the
5 performance of that system, and by improving the
6 performance of the system, then more of those
7 children that you speak of, I think, will bring
8 their education to a better conclusion rather
9 than dropping out, as you properly pointed out.
10 There are no dollar signs in this
11 bill. This is not a budget bill. This is a
12 governance bill. This is a restructuring of the
13 board of education, the first major reform
14 that's taken place since 1970, '72 -- '69? I'm
15 corrected, '69. And that's what we're about
16 here today, and that's the only way I could
17 answer your question.
18 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you. If I
19 may continue, Madam President. May I continue?
20 THE PRESIDENT: Yes, please.
21 SENATOR WALDON: Does the
22 gentleman continue to yield? We're coming to a
23 close, Senator Padavan.
44
1 SENATOR PADAVAN: It's all
2 right. I'm not going anywhere, Senator.
3 SENATOR WALDON: I don't think I
4 am either, though I may have wishful thoughts.
5 Senator, it's my understanding from the
6 information from the very capable Minority
7 staff, that come the year 2000, you will have
8 190,000 students who do not have a seat, not who
9 won't finish high school on time but just won't
10 have a seat to sit down, be educated in this
11 school system.
12 Does this bill in any way address
13 that?
14 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, again,
15 I repeat, at the expense of being redundant,
16 this is not a capital budget bill nor expense
17 budget bill. It is not a state aid to education
18 bill. Now, there are other things which I and
19 I'm sure you and others are working on to
20 enhance the ability of the city of New York and
21 the board of education to expand its resources
22 in terms of capital investment.
23 There is something, hopefully,
45
1 before us not too long in the distant future,
2 not too far in the future that will relate to
3 the ability -- the City's ability to provide
4 more capital funds for schools and expand its
5 capacity. But you know where the basic problem
6 lies, and the basic problem is not here, and
7 it's not in the city of New York. It's in
8 Washington, which has failed to provide
9 resources that we need for the over quarter
10 million new students and if you read a report
11 that was announced just today in the media, one
12 third of the children in our school system are
13 foreign born and Washington's not giving us a
14 penny to either provide the buildings, the
15 resources, to deal with that population.
16 But ascribing blame is not going
17 to solve anything. We must do what we can for
18 ourselves. One way is to maximize the resources
19 we do have, to put the city in the position of
20 being able to raise additional capital funds
21 which is what I was referring to before, and I
22 believe there's certainly a will and a desire at
23 all levels to accomplish that.
46
1 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President,
2 if I may continue for just a short period of
3 time.
4 THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Senator.
5 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, you
6 mentioned the quarter of a million students
7 which have increased our school population to
8 its current level of a million one hundred
9 thousand, and I would anticipate that over the
10 course of the next few years before the turn of
11 the century that number will become even
12 larger.
13 Is there anything in this
14 governance proposal which addresses bilingualism
15 in terms of education or English as a second
16 language education aspect?
17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan.
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: There is
19 nothing in this bill that relates specifically
20 to bilingual education. However, there is
21 certainly enough in this bill that mandates that
22 the chancellor, the superintendents, the
23 principals, the entire system address the
47
1 educational needs, is a phrase often used in
2 here, of all the children in the system, all the
3 children.
4 In order to do that, obviously we
5 must deal with children who have at last count
6 184 different languages spoken, 184 different
7 languages, in our system in the city of New
8 York, to address the awesome needs that those
9 children have in terms of mainstreaming them
10 into English and in the process trying to
11 educate them. It's addressed in that fashion.
12 We are not dealing with
13 curriculum in this bill, but we do require and
14 mandate that those who have the responsibility
15 and the accountability address curriculum and
16 that relates certainly to children where English
17 is not their primary language.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
19 Senator Waldon.
20 SENATOR WALDON: Madam President,
21 on the bill.
22 Let me thank Senator Padavan for
23 his patience and for his thoroughness in
48
1 explaining to me his interpretation of this
2 proposal that he submitted for our
3 consideration.
4 My colleagues, I must share with
5 you that the opinions of the people on the
6 school boards in my district who have taken the
7 time from their busy schedules to contact me, is
8 for the most part diametrically opposed to what
9 I've heard here late this evening. They feel
10 that there's too great an absence of
11 participation by the parents of the children,
12 that the children in these districts are being
13 sold short shrift because they will not have
14 enough control at the local school level.
15 They are concerned that this will
16 create a tremendous center of power in the
17 chancellor and that the chancellor will become
18 so powerful that the opinions not only of the
19 parents but the teachers, the principals and
20 even the superintendents, may have meaningless
21 effect in the final analysis in the equation of
22 how did we and what do we teach the children in
23 our city?
49
1 Those of you who are very
2 intimately involved in the city of New York
3 understand full well that our children are not
4 being educated, and we've had money to educate
5 them, but the system hasn't worked and the
6 parents who have called me, the school board
7 members who have called me and those
8 professionals in these districts who have called
9 me, feel that this is not going to do it; and so
10 I must respectfully disagree that this is the
11 end all and be all for us.
12 I respect the Governor's
13 proposal. I think that change is necessary. I
14 don't think it has to be so centered in the
15 chancellor, and I believe in the mayor. I think
16 of this as a subliminal message of control and
17 power and a power surge by the mayor.
18 When I looked at the bill, I saw
19 in one section that my learned colleague, the
20 Senator from the great borough of the Bronx,
21 Larry Seabrook, pointed out. It says in -- on
22 page 3, line 44, A temporary task force is
23 hereby created to study and make recommendations
50
1 to the Governor and the Legislature concerning
2 the effectiveness of the existing community
3 school board election process in maximizing
4 public participation in the electoral process
5 and in meeting the educational needs of the
6 children of the city of New York. The task
7 force shall consist of four members to be
8 appointed as follows: One shall be the
9 Executive Director of the Board of Elections of
10 the city of New York. One shall be appointed by
11 the mayor of the city of New York. One shall be
12 appointed by the Speaker of the New York City
13 Council. One shall be appointed by the
14 chancellor.
15 I don't see anybody representing
16 the children. I don't see anybody even
17 representing UFT. I don't see anybody
18 representing the principals. I don't see
19 anybody representing the superintendents. I
20 don't see anybody representing the state
21 legislators who come up here and must make
22 decisions and determine the amounts of money
23 which will go towards these children's
51
1 education.
2 The people in my district say no,
3 no, a thousand times no, and therefore, I
4 encourage my colleagues to do the right thing,
5 to do the right thing. Reject this proposal.
6 Let's send it back, let it be retrofitted until
7 it fits the needs of not yourselves and myself
8 but the children of our respective school
9 districts in the city of New York.
10 Thank you very much, Madam
11 President.
12 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
13 Senator Waldon.
14 Senator Stavisky.
15 Senator Padavan, why do you rise?
16 SENATOR PADAVAN: I simply wanted
17 to address one of the comments made by the
18 Senator which I think is just completely in
19 error, if you don't mind Senator Stavisky.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Stavisky,
21 will you yield to Senator Padavan?
22 SENATOR STAVISKY: I have no
23 problem yielding.
52
1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you,
2 Senator.
3 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, the
5 task force that you've read about is created to
6 determine how best to ensure that we have an
7 election take place for community school boards
8 that is as efficient and as effective as
9 possible. Therefore, we have the Executive
10 Director of the Board of Elections on the task
11 force. Who knows more about the elect -- how -
12 what we physically can do and how you must do it
13 in the election that takes place in the city of
14 New York and the funding necessary? Obviously
15 it must involve City entities and City
16 agencies.
17 But more importantly, Senator,
18 their recommendations will be to us. Did you
19 read that part?
20 SENATOR WALDON: I read it now.
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: All right.
22 They will recommend to us by January of 1988 -
23 '98, excuse me, their suggestions as to how we
53
1 can deal with the voting process in a very
2 technical, precise way and then we will make the
3 judgment, Senator. So your categorization that
4 we're not going to be involved leaves me
5 somewhat beside myself. I don't understand it.
6 We will make the decision, not
7 them, but they have the resources to look into
8 this issue, to examine it and to come to us with
9 their suggestions.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
11 Senator Stavisky.
12 SENATOR STAVISKY: Madam
13 President, I rose for the purpose of expressing
14 my reservations about certain provisions of this
15 bill, not to question the motivation of the
16 sponsor or sponsors, but to explain the
17 difficulties that I see.
18 Nowhere in the state of New York
19 outside of New York City would anyone suggest
20 taking the power to name a superintendent away
21 from the local board of education. If we did, I
22 am certain we would be hearing howls of protest
23 from all parts of the state, and if it's such a
54
1 good system for New York City, why don't we
2 apply this same principle to the rest of the
3 state?
4 Would you favor giving to a
5 superintendent, which is a fancy name for the
6 chancellor of the New York City school system,
7 would you give to the power of the superintend
8 ent in your district the authority to control
9 the actions of the local board of education? I
10 think not; and this does not mean that there are
11 no problems in other school districts throughout
12 the state, but nothing in this bill addresses
13 that issue.
14 Make it a statewide bill. Allow
15 the local superintendent to assume the powers
16 that are given to this chancellor, the power not
17 to be accountable to the local school board but
18 the power to make the decisions that the local
19 school board traditionally makes, and that is
20 not dealt with here.
21 We have in this legislation some
22 rather disturbing issues, including in one part
23 the right of the removal of the community school
55
1 board members and others where, in the judgment
2 of the chancellor, the conduct is contrary to
3 the best interests of the city school district.
4 What does that mean? Where, in
5 the opinion of the chancellor, the conduct is
6 contrary to the best interests of the city
7 school district. That is a power without
8 definition. That is a power that you would not
9 entrust to a superintendent to remove a local
10 school board member, including members who are
11 elected by the public, which is what these
12 school board members are. They're elected by
13 the public.
14 You speak of the possibility that
15 there will be consultation, and I notice that
16 the chancellor is authorized to appoint a deputy
17 for each borough of the City responsible for
18 coordinating and periodically meeting with the
19 borough president, the chancellor and the
20 community superintendents in the borough, on
21 borough-specific issues and issues of
22 boroughwide significance.
23 There is no reference to
56
1 consultation by this deputy of the chancellor,
2 consultation with community school board
3 members. They are left out of the -- out of the
4 spectrum, and I say that this is a failing that
5 permeates the entire bill.
6 There's one other problem. Are
7 there no issues where the central board of edu
8 cation and the chancellor have been deficient?
9 Where is the greatest drop-out rate? Where is
10 the highest incidence of failure? At the high
11 school level, and I see nothing in this
12 legislation to address that responsibility of
13 the chancellor and the central board of
14 education, with their failure to perform, with
15 their conflicts of interest, with their
16 inability to deal decisively with failures in
17 their system, in the system that is under the
18 direct jurisdiction of the central board.
19 Are we to assume, therefore, that
20 there are no problems with regard to the high
21 schools, that there are no problems with regard
22 to purchases and supplies, with regard to any
23 aspect that is solely in the jurisdiction of the
57
1 central board of education and the chancellor?
2 What if we get a dud for a chancellor? What if
3 we get a chancellor who is not doing the job?
4 And I'm not characterizing the present
5 chancellor. I'm saying what if the chancellor
6 is a crook? What if the chancellor is an
7 incompetent boob? What do you do with regard to
8 the failure of the high school division to
9 function appropriately?
10 And so I say to you, consider
11 carefully what you do here. Do not allow the
12 desire to get this off the table -- this is not
13 a school governance bill for New York City. It
14 is a Governor's bill that is characterized by a
15 mean-spirited attempt to assign blame to
16 community school board members for the mistakes
17 that are not always of their doing but which are
18 perhaps mistakes of the central system.
19 So in conclusion, may I say do
20 not do to New York City what you would not do to
21 your own school district. If you're willing to
22 have this formula in your school district, let
23 us make it a statewide bill. Let us be
58
1 determined to correct the inequities in the -
2 in the administration of any school district by
3 giving to the superintendent the power that you
4 are giving to this chancellor. I think you
5 would be very loathe to do that, and I think
6 that these are just some of the problems.
7 I am not proposing that you deal
8 with all of the issues, but there is no school
9 governance unless it applies to the entire
10 spectrum of the city school system of New York
11 City or the city school district in any other
12 part of the state or the school district of the
13 non-city districts.
14 So I urge you, if you're ready to
15 embrace this formula, then do it in your
16 district and I'll be happy to work with you
17 also. I bitterly resent the idea that until
18 this afternoon, no one in the Minority in this
19 house had a copy of this bill. No one had a
20 copy of this bill and, when one copy was finally
21 delivered to a staff member, that was insuf
22 ficient notice, that was a "take it or leave
23 it", no desire to compromise, no desire to take
59
1 into account some of the problems that some of
2 us have cited. Take it or leave it. This is
3 the way it's going to be. You either want to
4 vote for the bill or against the bill, but no
5 time for discussion and consultation.
6 I must tell you, the vibrations
7 I've been getting from school districts in areas
8 of Queens which Senator Padavan and I have
9 traditionally represented are not necessarily
10 reflected in unanimous support for this bill and
11 I think that that is something that will come
12 back to haunt us if we decide to take this
13 route.
14 Thank you, Madam Speaker.
15 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
16 Senator.
17 Senator Seabrook.
18 SENATOR SEABROOK: Will -
19 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Mendez.
20 Oh, oh, I'm sorry, Senator.
21 SENATOR SEABROOK: Senator, would
22 the sponsor yield for a couple questions,
23 please?
60
1 Senator, could you define for me
2 what is "persistent educational failure" on the
3 basis that's defined by this bill and state
4 law? What is "persistent educational failure"?
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, Senator,
6 that's obviously a subjective phrase. You
7 know.
8 SENATOR SEABROOK: It's in the
9 bill.
10 SENATOR PADAVAN: To answer your
11 question and also to reflect on something that
12 was said previously, we have a Board of Regents
13 and a Commissioner of Education, and if you look
14 at state law they have the authority to step in
15 and we saw that happen out on Long Island in the
16 Roosevelt School District.
17 SENATOR SEABROOK: Right.
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Because of the
19 lack of adequate performance by that district,
20 so it's not just unique to the city of New
21 York. Where we are unique is, of course, the
22 decentralization law of 1969 that created 32
23 school districts, but they are -- they are not
61
1 school districts similar to school districts
2 outside the city of New York.
3 The most glaring difference is
4 they don't have the ability to raise money.
5 SENATOR SEABROOK: Right.
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: No school tax.
7 Maybe we ought to do that one day, give each of
8 them authority to raise school taxes. That
9 would be interesting; but nevertheless, Senator,
10 your question cannot be answered in specific
11 language. Obviously we rely upon the chancellor
12 and all of the levels beneath him to make
13 determinations about performance and obviously
14 those levels of performance can relate to test
15 scores, drop-out rates, various educational
16 failures that are easily identified by
17 educators.
18 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yeah, I -- the
19 reason I ask is because it was labeled in the
20 bill, but there was no definition of what is
21 considered, so it's an objective view by the
22 chancellor you're saying.
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: The chancellor,
62
1 the superintendent, principals and certainly the
2 community school boards themselves. I mean if
3 they are aware of a principal who is not per
4 forming properly, you might take note of certain
5 portions of the bill which allow mandated
6 training of principals, if they're not -
7 SENATOR SEABROOK: I understand.
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: That they can
9 be directed to take additional training so that
10 their ability to perform will be enhanced.
11 That's in here too.
12 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
13 Seabrook.
14 SENATOR SEABROOK: Will the
15 sponsor yield again?
16 SENATOR PADAVAN: Sure.
17 SENATOR SEABROOK: Senator, you
18 just indicated a point when you talked to
19 Senator Waldon and you just stated about this,
20 these mandates in reference to training,
21 mandates in reference to training of teachers
22 and principals and part of a cry that's
23 constantly used in the Legislature is no unfund
63
1 ed mandates.
2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
3 SENATOR SEABROOK: This is a bill
4 that requires funding but these are mandates
5 that have no funding.
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: O.K. I think
7 that's a fair question, Senator. I'd like to
8 respond to it.
9 SENATOR SEABROOK: O.K. Just one
10 part of it, because the original bill that
11 created decentralization also had a mandate for
12 training but no funding in it, same bill.
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: M-m h-m-m.
14 SENATOR SEABROOK: How are we
15 going to deal with that? We didn't deal with it
16 from 1969 until the present and now we're doing
17 the same thing putting no dollars, mandating
18 training teachers and principals, board members
19 and we haven't attached a dollar to any
20 training.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan.
22 SENATOR PADAVAN: There are
23 mandates obviously within our state Education
64
1 Law that come about not only by our actions, but
2 actions of the Regents, the state Commissioner
3 and it becomes our responsibility during the
4 budgetary process to provide the funds to meet
5 those mandates.
6 But here is a significant part of
7 the bill that I think you should take note of.
8 Riddled throughout the legislation is an effort
9 to maximize the nine -- almost $9 billion that
10 we're spending now. We spend per capita in the
11 city of New York more than any school district
12 in any city in the nation, of comparable size.
13 Go to Chicago, Ill... anywhere, Los Angeles,
14 Detroit, we're spending more per child. If you
15 take those million children and you use nine
16 billion as a figure, we're talking about overall
17 $9,000 per year per child, but we're not getting
18 our money's worth. When I say "we", I really
19 should say our children are not getting our
20 money's worth.
21 Within this legislation, with the
22 imposition of fiscal monitors on every school
23 district, involvement of the comptroller,
65
1 improvements in purchasing, something mentioned
2 earlier that I didn't cover but now I will, we
3 allow school districts and superintendents to
4 buy things that they could buy cheaper than the
5 central board, supplies. We authorize them to
6 make repairs up to a certain amount, if they can
7 get it done faster and as cheaply so that
8 children don't have to sit in classrooms with
9 leaks coming through the ceiling, if it can be
10 repaired. That authority is in here.
11 So we're trying through the
12 structure that's in this bill, to maximize the
13 resources that are there, but it will be your
14 task and mine as we deal with future budgets to
15 attempt to enhance that, those resources, but I
16 think we can all agree when we look at the
17 dollars, we're not getting our money's worth.
18 SENATOR SEABROOK: Just one other
19 question, Senator, in reference to the -- you
20 talked about the dollars that we're spending and
21 basically three of the Bronx districts it's less
22 than $7,000 per child that's spent on that
23 individual child. It's not at 10,000 based on
66
1 the report that the chancellor submitted to us a
2 couple of weeks ago.
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: You talking
4 about in the individual school, right?
5 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes.
6 SENATOR PADAVAN: But when I use
7 that figure, I'm talking about the entire
8 system, the overhead, all the administrative
9 costs, all of those things that I think can and
10 should be streamlined so that more money gets
11 down into the school, into the classroom, is of
12 critical importance, but you can only do that if
13 you have a system that allows it to be done.
14 When we get the comptroller
15 involving himself in their audits -- you've seen
16 comptroller audits; you've read them, I'm sure
17 -- they're performance audits, fiscal
18 monitors. It specifically says in the bill
19 fiscal monitors will be there to ensure that the
20 money is spent wisely and productively. That's
21 how we'll get more money in the classroom.
22 SENATOR SEABROOK: One other
23 question if the Senator will yield. How much or
67
1 what is the percentage of the budget for those
2 school districts or any school district that the
3 actual school board members have the
4 responsibility of controlling, maintaining and
5 spending? What percentage do the school board
6 members have?
7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan.
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: I really don't
9 know the answer to that question, Senator,
10 because I imagine it varies from district to
11 district. As you know, some have the benefit of
12 certain title federal funds, others do not. The
13 size of the district and the nature of the
14 student population, which is not homogeneous,
15 it's very difficult for me to tell you what
16 percentage of the overall budget is
17 discretionary in terms of community school
18 boards. It's probably very little, because when
19 you consider that basic costs of running the
20 building, paying for the teachers, tens of
21 thousands of employees, that's where the bulk of
22 the money goes and the community school boards
23 don't have today any authority to expend those
68
1 funds. They don't negotiate contracts or
2 anything of the sort.
3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
4 Seabrook.
5 SENATOR SEABROOK: One other
6 question, Senator, as it relates to Senator
7 Stavisky raised a question in reference to the
8 high schools.
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
10 SENATOR SEABROOK: Who has the
11 responsibility for control of that budget and
12 that spending? Who is responsible for the
13 spending of the high schools?
14 SENATOR PADAVAN: As you know,
15 within the structure now, the chancellor has
16 within each borough, coordinators for the high
17 schools, and the budget is generated at the
18 central board, administered by the chancellor
19 and that's a citywide governance issue.
20 One of the changes in this bill,
21 contrary to what Senator Stavisky said, the
22 deputy borough -- the deputy chancellor in each
23 borough specifically, and it's in the bill, will
69
1 be involved with it. It says board policy, city
2 board policy with respect to high schools, so we
3 have not only what we had before but now the
4 chancellor will have a deputy in each borough
5 who will have responsibility also with regard to
6 high schools and their performance.
7 SENATOR SEABROOK: One other
8 question, Senator. In the bill, this is the
9 first time I've seen it, on page 11 it indicates
10 that the chancellor will have control to operate
11 and also to -- all of the academic and
12 vocational schools, and it says here, and I'm
13 not clear on it, that he can -- he will have the
14 ability to transfer high schools to certain
15 community boards and jurisdictions. What's -
16 what does -- explain that. I don't follow
17 that. That's -
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well -
19 SENATOR SEABROOK: Page 11.
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, currently
21 the chancellor has authority now. There's no
22 change there. Now, if he feels that in a
23 particular case, you know, they're setting up
70
1 some of these magnet high schools.
2 SENATOR SEABROOK: Right.
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: We are just
4 giving him this latitude. It's new ground which
5 may be beneficial, can only be beneficial if
6 it's implemented to bring the governance of
7 those high schools, whatever they may be, closer
8 to the community in terms of what goes on
9 there.
10 SENATOR SEABROOK: On the bill.
11 Thank you, Senator.
12 There's a real concern in
13 reference to this bill as it relates to school
14 governance and in the bill when we talk about
15 school governance. If we're going to, just says
16 -- Senator Stavisky raised the issue about high
17 schools and now Senator Waldon raised the issue
18 about the board of elections. We drew school
19 district lines in 1969. School district lines
20 have never been redrawn, has never been
21 reapportionment since the first original bill.
22 If we're talking about true
23 governance, why aren't we redrawing school
71
1 district lines with -- no, we didn't. No, we
2 didn't. You'll have your chance. In the
3 original lines that were drawn, they were not
4 redrawn. There has not been redistricting since
5 1969. When we're talking about changing and
6 everybody else we have to redraw lines every ten
7 years. Districts change, communities change but
8 we have not had the audacity to change school
9 district lines.
10 The voting that actually takes
11 place, and we're talking about that which we
12 want to change, TIME magazine six months ago
13 said that New York City public school system is
14 the most segregated school system in America,
15 TIME magazine. Headline cover. As a part of
16 true governance, why not change school district
17 lines? Some of them don't meet the standards
18 right now to even be a board. They are
19 basically -- the numbers that are there are not
20 enough people to even have a community
21 district.
22 We're now talking about changing
23 and governance and the allocation of dollars and
72
1 we have yet to define this term that we use in
2 this bill that talks about persistent
3 educational failure and nobody has been more
4 persistent than the high school division in the
5 city of New York in producing the highest drop
6 out rate. Bronx high schools rang one, two and
7 three. Three Bronx high schools, and the high
8 school, the only high school in the city of New
9 York that's under a board is in the Bronx, one,
10 Truman High School is not on the list, but every
11 other high school that was in the districts in
12 which there were problems about local school
13 districts which are the lowest income level,
14 highest infant mortality rate, highest form of
15 cancer, highest in TB, unemployment the highest,
16 so that's persistent failure by the governmental
17 entity that, for some reason, we didn't provide
18 those children the opportunities and, therefore,
19 we're asking them to be like other kids that
20 we've given everything to.
21 If we're seriously talking about
22 governance, how can we not talk about funding
23 for New York City schools as it relates to other
73
1 schools throughout the state? That's a part of
2 governance.
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: May I answer?
4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan.
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, are
6 you aware of the fact that three or four years
7 ago, with authority from this body, a commission
8 was set up to draw, redraw district lines, and
9 they held hearings all over the city of New
10 York?
11 SENATOR SEABROOK: Right.
12 SENATOR PADAVAN: And then they
13 decided not to. Are you aware of the fact also
14 that we did authorize the creation of three more
15 school districts if they chose to? Are you aware
16 of that?
17 SENATOR SEABROOK: Very much.
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: O.K.
19 SENATOR SEABROOK: But I'm also
20 aware -
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: One more
22 question, and then I'll sit down.
23 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes.
74
1 SENATOR PADAVAN: Are you also
2 aware that on page 15, line 39 through 41 that
3 we provide an opportunity for a child to attend
4 a school in any district? They're not limited
5 to the district in which they live? I could
6 simply ask you those things rhetorically,
7 Senator.
8 SENATOR SEABROOK: It's in the
9 bill, but I'll read it and I'll respond to you.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Seabrook,
11 are you -
12 SENATOR SEABROOK: I'm wrapping
13 up in a second, but the point you refer to that
14 they didn't want to redraw the lines, it was the
15 chancellor and the Legislature, after the report
16 in terms of doing it, they said, We have a new
17 chancellor in the city of New York, and it's too
18 much of a burden, when Richard Green became the
19 chancellor, to put that on him. That was the
20 response of the Legislature. Let's wait.
21 Richard Green died a year later.
22 Then it was put before certain
23 groups, and the pressures and the political
75
1 pressure was that, if we redrew lines, some
2 parts of this city wouldn't have districts and
3 the question would be how would we redraw them
4 on the basis of those children who are in
5 school, or basically we're talking about
6 attendance. So that was an issue there, and no
7 one wanted to deal with it. That's our
8 responsibility to mandate that as we're doing
9 here.
10 That's a part of governance, not
11 they didn't want to do it. They don't want to
12 change things now. We're trying to do a bill to
13 do that. If we mandate it, it could be
14 done, if we make it law, so I'm saying that here
15 we're talking about deciding on the appropria
16 tions and the training for teachers, under
17 standing the training for administrators, no
18 dollars attached to this bill, mandates all over
19 the place and there's a constant cliche in both
20 houses that there should be no unfunded mandates
21 and we got more mandates here in this bill and
22 we haven't put one dollar in this bill.
23 We should be talking about the
76
1 children in New York City who do not receive the
2 same amount of dollars that the children receive
3 in other parts of the state. That's a good
4 governance bill. That's the issue. When we
5 talk about -- and governance is a part of not
6 having buildings for children but having people
7 who rip off -- who rip off in a leasing program,
8 millions of dollars and that wasn't no school
9 board sanction in that at all. It was something
10 called the central board. Wasn't elected to
11 anything; appointed, appointed.
12 So here we're talking about
13 scandals. That one was swept under everybody's
14 rug, and no one talks about that at all. We
15 talk about the custodians, we put them in the
16 bill but nobody talks about the leasing problem
17 here. Who's going to be responsible for that,
18 the chancellor? No one's talking, put that in
19 the bill. That's good governance. Then more
20 money that was missing out of those leases than
21 all the school boards could rip off combined in
22 the total existence. How come that's not in
23 this bill? Who's running that show? Who's going
77
1 to be responsible there?
2 So I say if we really want to do
3 governance and then we talk about elections and
4 what Waldon was raising, the issue was where are
5 the parents going to be when we talk about this
6 school-based management or something here.
7 SENATOR PADAVAN: Management
8 based councils. If I could just answer.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Senator
10 Padavan.
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Under this
12 provision, parents -- parents on behalf of their
13 children will be involved very directly not only
14 in the budgetary process within the school and
15 the district, but in interviewing and screening
16 candidates for principals, and the community
17 superintendent, in every aspect, both personnel
18 and budgetwise within their school. That's
19 something we don't have today involved. We
20 should be very supportive of that.
21 SENATOR SEABROOK: Senator, they
22 have similar reasons of having the opportunity
23 to be elected, just as the people who you and I
78
1 represent, they have that when they elect us to
2 go and represent them; so that's a part of that
3 parent participation, so they have that
4 already.
5 What I'm saying is that where has
6 it been shown, can you name me any -
7 SENATOR PADAVAN: They don't have
8 that, Senator; they didn't have it at all.
9 SENATOR SEABROOK: They have it.
10 SENATOR PADAVAN: You and I are
11 not involved in the selection of principals and
12 superintendents.
13 SENATOR SEABROOK: No, but we
14 elect.
15 SENATOR PADAVAN: If I have a
16 child at a given school, I'm very involved in
17 who that principal is.
18 SENATOR SEABROOK: So am I.
19 SENATOR PADAVAN: And I want to
20 be involved, and I should be involved, and now I
21 can be involved.
22 THE PRESIDENT: Let's have
23 order. Go ahead, Senator Seabrook.
79
1 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes, that
2 exists because the parent, through all the
3 circle of 30, there's a whole process in which
4 parents, teachers, superintendents, everybody is
5 involved, it's there, but what I'm saying is who
6 do the parents go to to redress their concerns
7 when they have a problem with the
8 superintendent? They can't go to the community
9 board in this bill. Who do they go to?
10 The community board does not
11 supervise the superintendent.
12 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator -
13 THE PRESIDENT: Senator, would
14 you like to have Senator Padavan respond?
15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, the
16 community board in this legislation establishes
17 all matters involving education, policy and
18 procedures, including issues that relate to
19 discipline, a variety of areas within the school
20 district. They have control over that. Now,
21 it's true they do not hire the superintendent,
22 that is true. They will submit under this
23 provision something similar to what they do
80
1 now. They'll submit four names after they
2 screen from qualified lists. They will submit
3 up to four names to the chancellor and he will
4 select one.
5 The fact remains when it comes to
6 the issue that you've addressed, quality of
7 education issue, the parents have certainly the
8 opportunity to go to the community school board
9 members. But, you know, I had two children and
10 I went to the public schools and if I had a
11 problem in the school, I didn't go to the
12 community school board. I went to the principal
13 and I'm sure every parent here did the same
14 thing, and I said to him on one occasion, You
15 better take care of this problem, and if you
16 don't, well, then I'll have to go above you; and
17 he took care of the problem. That's where we
18 go.
19 Now, in this bill, we are
20 mandating that parents have a structure to do
21 that, even more than they now have an
22 opportunity to do it, and that's what's
23 important. How often does the average parent in
81
1 your district even go to a community school
2 board meeting? By the way, in this bill one of
3 the many things we're mandating is that all of
4 those meetings be open under the Open Meetings
5 Law that apply to many other of the governmental
6 entities; but how often do they go to the
7 community school board meeting? Rarely.
8 Rarely. But they do go to their school every
9 day when they're delivering their young child,
10 or periodically, and that's where they want the
11 problem addressed.
12 That's why school-based
13 budgeting, school-based management, that's why
14 that's so important where you have the
15 principal, the teachers, the parents involved.
16 SENATOR SEABROOK: Where has that
17 worked?
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: What?
19 SENATOR SEABROOK: Where has that
20 worked?
21 THE PRESIDENT: I'm sorry.
22 Please direct your comments -
23 SENATOR SEABROOK: I'm sorry,
82
1 Senator. In what city and state has that
2 worked?
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, Senator,
4 you know, I will tell you that there are certain
5 schools in my district and in certain of the
6 districts that Senator Waldon and Stavisky
7 referred to -- I have 25, 26 and 29 -- where we
8 have that and it's worked well, but it's not
9 uniform. It's not everywhere and it ought to be
10 in your school districts as well as mine, and
11 that's why it's in this bill and not only should
12 it be there by mandate, but the people to do it
13 have to be trained, given that opportunity so
14 they know what's going on, so they can pick up a
15 piece of paper and see how the budget is being
16 allocated, the things that you and I look at
17 when we review budgets, and to see what the
18 process is providing for their child.
19 SENATOR SEABROOK: Now, Senator,
20 could -
21 SENATOR PADAVAN: That's the most
22 important thing.
23 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
83
1 Seabrook.
2 SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes. Could
3 you just explain to me this process of how, now,
4 any child can go to any school in any district
5 that they want to? Please explain that.
6 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan.
7 SENATOR PADAVAN: If you have,
8 let's say, two neighboring districts, one for
9 one reason or the other, you have -- you want
10 your child to be in a school in a district other
11 than the one you live in, you go to that school
12 and on a first come first served basis, meaning
13 if there's space your child must be admitted.
14 Let's say you want your child to go to the first
15 grade and P.S. 29, which happens to be in a
16 district other than in which that child lives,
17 they -- that child must be accepted if there is,
18 of course, space.
19 SENATOR SEABROOK: Oh, O.K. I
20 want -- that's good.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
22 Seabrook.
23 SENATOR SEABROOK: O.K. So in
84
1 other words if we want to ship all those kids
2 that are failing in the other districts to
3 another district, we have no problem if we get
4 there first.
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator, as you
6 know, to answer your question fully, here's the
7 specific language, right, parents shall access
8 the information regarding the programs that
9 allow students to apply for admission to schools
10 outside a student's own attendance zone. O.K.
11 That's in the bill. That's on page 14 and it's
12 stated again on page 12, establish new programs
13 under which students may choose to attend a
14 public school in another community district.
15 It's in two different places in the bill.
16 Now, if you go to seat your child
17 even in your own district, Senator, and there's
18 no space, they're going to have to bus them to
19 another school, right? That's a problem we have
20 in many parts of the city regrettably, but if
21 there is space that child will be in there.
22 SENATOR SEABROOK: Well, just on
23 the bill, in closing, I think we will certainly
85
1 have a redistricting bill immediately after a
2 number of school districts understand that, so
3 they will be coming back here and we will be
4 amending this bill immediately with redistrict
5 ing that will take place and restrictions as
6 well, but that's a good sign. I'm glad that's
7 in the bill, and we're going to make sure that
8 we have all the buses we can to bus those kids
9 from the poor districts into the affluent
10 districts where the schools are operating with
11 only rotary phones in some of the districts,
12 Senator, rotary phones and still the most
13 technological advance they have in the schools
14 is a metal detector, and no computers and they
15 can't even put the computers in because they
16 don't have the electrical circuits to allow that
17 to happen.
18 I'm so glad we're going to do
19 something. We're going to eliminate this
20 problem of all of these persistent educational
21 failures and that we're going to make sure that
22 we aggressively move to do that. That's
23 important. Busing is important. I always felt
86
1 that way, so I think that it is important and
2 crucial that we understand that this bill right
3 now does a lot in terms of mandates but does
4 nothing in terms of budget. It does a lot of
5 talk, but it won't happen. It goes back to what
6 Stavisky said, we've allowed non-elected people
7 to make decisions over people who are elected,
8 and even move them out of office at any given
9 point. Any mayor who can count to five, he gets
10 a new chancellor. All he has to do is count to
11 five, any mayor, as long as he can count to
12 five, he gets a new chancellor and sometimes if
13 they don't like what a chancellor may say about
14 a budget, he goes and it has nothing to do with
15 performance. It's what are you going to do
16 about the budget, and I want to dictate it.
17 So we need to have some
18 safeguards on that because I'm still in the
19 clear as to why we're taking the powers and the
20 selection process from people who are elected,
21 providing it to people who are selected. And
22 who do they answer to? People who are selected.
23 So I think, when we do these reforms, it is
87
1 interesting that we have not talked about
2 reforming the board that has caused us the most
3 problem that sits at 110 Livingston Street.
4 They caused us the most problem and we've yet to
5 talk about conforming them.
6 They have complete control over
7 the chancellor. We have complete control over
8 the high school division and is an abysmal
9 failure, and we haven't talked about that board
10 yet in this bill.
11 We have not said one thing about
12 those people and they, once they get on the
13 board, they're unaccountable to anybody. Ask
14 the borough president from the Bronx. He can
15 tell you. He couldn't even recall one. So it
16 is interesting here that the greatest culprits
17 for all of those kids who have had this
18 persistent educational failure, the greatest
19 purveyors of it have gotten away again,
20 Leonard. They have just snuck away, and no one
21 has put any provision in this bill about them.
22 This ain't governance when we
23 can't talk about the real culprits. This will
88
1 run away with the store. They're the ones who
2 talked about signing leases that the kids don't
3 have schools to go to now. They're the ones
4 that signed up with all the scabs and scams and
5 not one provision in here talks about those
6 guys. Not one editorial talks about that board,
7 and the justice department need to talk about
8 the diminution of power from people, especially
9 those minority districts, especially. That
10 issue needs to be dealt with.
11 It's not dealt with in this bill
12 at all, as if they don't even exist. Nothing
13 about the Voters Right Act here at all. So when
14 we talk about true governance, I'll be ready to
15 deal with this bill when we talk about the
16 central board. Put them in the same category
17 because what's good for the goose is good for
18 the gander, and when they can swim in this soup,
19 it's a good bill, but since they don't want to
20 swim, I can't vote for it.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
22 Senator Seabrook.
23 Senator Mendez, if you've thawed
89
1 out.
2 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you, Madam
3 President.
4 I wonder, Madam President, if
5 Senator Padavan would yield for a couple of
6 questions.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan?
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes, Madam
9 President, be glad to yield.
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: It appears that
11 in the great desire to give the chancellor all
12 the powers that we ask for and more, what this
13 bill does then is that ends up micro-managing
14 the system. There are some contradictions here,
15 for example -
16 SENATOR PADAVAN: I would not
17 accept that, Senator, as a category.
18 SENATOR MENDEZ: I want to ask
19 you a question again, and the point was very
20 well expressed here by Senator Seabrook. This
21 governance, it is a governance bill, you were
22 defining it as a governance bill and how come -
23 the first question, how come, why was the
90
1 statute that directed you and the drafters of
2 the bill not to even mention the central board
3 of education? We know the task force, Senator
4 Padavan, the chancellor appointed a member, and
5 that the mayor appoints two. For how long are
6 these appointees -
7 THE PRESIDENT: Excuse me. The
8 stenographer is unable to catch your comments
9 when you're not speaking in the microphone.
10 SENATOR MENDEZ: I just like to
11 look at him.
12 THE PRESIDENT: I mean I know you
13 have to face one way.
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: My question is
15 that we know that the five borough presidents of
16 the city of New York did appoint each a board
17 member, central board, and that the mayor
18 appoints two. My first question is how long are
19 these appointees supposed to serve?
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: I don't know.
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: How long do the
22 members of the central board of education -- are
23 they supposed to serve?
91
1 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan.
2 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, you
3 yourself are one in the process by which they
4 are selected, and that remains. I might add
5 parenthetically that there is a section in this
6 bill that does relate to the city board and in
7 terms of their responsibilities.
8 SENATOR MENDEZ: The
9 responsibilities, yes. Senator Padavan, answer
10 my question. You did?
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: I said it is
12 the same.
13 SENATOR MENDEZ: So if I
14 understand your answer correctly, probably they
15 will serve forever and ever and ever as long as
16 the appointing officer, in this instance the
17 borough president, take for example the borough
18 president of Brooklyn, that has been in office
19 for many, many years. His appointee then will
20 serve forever and ever. We know that the way in
21 which the members of the central board of
22 education are selected, appointed, is a -- is
23 like a -- is in the same fashion in which the
92
1 so-called Board of Estimate was also appointed,
2 and that -- that way of appointing people to
3 that board might very well be as unconstitu
4 tional as -- as the court finds, just that the
5 Board of Estimate was -- because the population
6 in the five boroughs, differing population,
7 difference in population, so therefore, the
8 mandate of each board member, don't you think,
9 is that it's not equally representative of all
10 the children in the boroughs in the schools?
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
12 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan.
13 Are you asking Senator Padavan to respond?
14 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes.
15 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
16 SENATOR MENDEZ: So if we're
17 talking about governance in the structure of the
18 public school system in New York, I think that
19 we, in fact, should have taken that anacronism
20 out of the picture and dealt with it because
21 after all we want to change everything as the
22 chancellor would have everything changed, and
23 for him to be appointing and firing and
93
1 selecting and doing everything, we should have
2 stopped it in that fashion, with that -- with
3 the membership of the board.
4 Secondly -
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Senator
6 yields.
7 SENATOR MENDEZ: The question -
8 secondly, the -- second, the newspaper sections
9 of some of the major newspapers in the city of
10 New York did publish in detail the horrible -
11 I'm going to be generous, I'm going to define it
12 as fierce difficulty with the leasing program
13 with the city schools, $100 million, Madam
14 President, that were thrown out in the most
15 idiotic fashion in buildings that presented
16 dangers to those school children that we wanted
17 to educate.
18 So my question is, how come,
19 Senator Padavan, that your bill does not deal
20 with accountability of the -- of the actions of
21 the board or of central board of education?
22 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Padavan.
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you.
94
1 Senator, you remember the Marchi bill? You may
2 have even voted for it.
3 SENATOR MENDEZ: Well, I don't
4 know.
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, it was
6 co-sponsored by a great member here, Joe
7 Galiber.
8 SENATOR MENDEZ: May he rest in
9 peace.
10 SENATOR PADAVAN: May he rest in
11 peace.
12 We eliminated in the Marchi bill,
13 you remember the boards were articulated. The
14 central board -- let me finish, if I may. So
15 part of the answer to your question is we're
16 doing the best we can, what we can agree upon,
17 so if you read the bottom of page 10, going onto
18 page 11, where it says "powers and duties".
19 SENATOR MENDEZ: Where is this?
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Bottom of page
21 10, section 2590 (g) line 46.
22 SENATOR MENDEZ: Where?
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: Bottom, line
95
1 46, if you go down to line 46. You see? It
2 begins there, "powers and duties of the board".
3 So we do outline in those next several
4 paragraphs up through line 18 on the following
5 page, what the responsibilities of the central
6 board are.
7 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator
8 Padavan.
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: So what we have
10 done to the best of our ability is to attempt to
11 articulate the law, how we feel those boards
12 should operate. Now, I'm trying to answer your
13 question, Senator. You said that they serve
14 forever, but they don't, Senator, because in my
15 -- in my span of time in the Legislature, I've
16 seen that central board change many times for a
17 variety of reasons, so they don't serve forever,
18 and a borough president who may be unhappy with
19 his or her designee has the authority to not
20 reappoint that person at the end of their term.
21 SENATOR MENDEZ: Senator Padavan,
22 you did not answer my question.
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: O.K.
96
1 SENATOR MENDEZ: You tried, but
2 you did not succeed. You deviated from it. My
3 question originally pertained to -- to why this
4 bill does not deal with accountability from the
5 central board of education. Yes, there are
6 powers here and, yes, but it doesn't say
7 anything to the -- to the -- to -- in the event
8 that some of the horrible mistakes or abuse of
9 power are -- are -- in fact, it doesn't say
10 anything. O.K. Let's -
11 SENATOR PADAVAN: I haven't
12 answered your question yet.
13 SENATOR MENDEZ: You didn't
14 answer the question yet.
15 SENATOR PADAVAN: May I?
16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Mendez,
17 Senator Padavan.
18 SENATOR PADAVAN: I'm happy to
19 try, do my best. Certainly the central board of
20 education are a policy-making body. They are
21 under the state Department of Education and
22 state Board of Regents, you're aware of that.
23 That's state law, so their accountability is not
97
1 only to the local officials who made the
2 appointment, your borough president, mine, the
3 mayor and whoever they may be, but also the
4 policies that they generate must -- must conform
5 to those policies and requirements that the
6 state Board of Regents, whom we elect, lay down
7 and the state Commissioner of Education who is
8 appointed by the Board of Regents, so there are
9 external -- there are external oversight
10 responsibilities that we can not and should not
11 ignore as it relates to the central board of
12 education.
13 SENATOR MENDEZ: The -
14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Mendez.
15 SENATOR MENDEZ: Yes, Madam
16 President. Maybe in this instance, pertaining
17 to the horrible scandal of how those hundred
18 million dollars of taxpayers' monies were so
19 irresponsibly used, so maybe in this instance
20 the state and these other external organizations
21 that you mention did not -- did not come through
22 in demanding accountability, and, in fact, then
23 why didn't this bill include something along
98
1 those lines?
2 Secondly, another question,
3 Senator Padavan, is it is mentioned here in this
4 bill that the chancellor will appoint five
5 deputy chancellors whose function will be to
6 meet with the borough presidents, and who else?
7 Let me see, where is it here in the bill? It
8 will meet with the five, each one with the five
9 borough presidents and the chancellor.
10 What will they be doing in those
11 meetings, politicking? I mean this kind of
12 deputy chancellors in each borough, could they
13 be meeting with the borough presidents and to be
14 meeting with the superintendents is another
15 layer of bureaucracy imposed upon the system and
16 will make more jobs for other people, yes, and
17 we want to reduce the unemployment rate in the
18 city of New York, but it doesn't do anything in
19 my view, nothing, to improve the educational -
20 education of the kids.
21 Don't you think that they are, in
22 fact, a bureaucracy?
23 SENATOR PADAVAN: No, I don't.
99
1 One of the changes we hear all the time, you've
2 heard it and I've heard it, is the
3 inaccessibility by parents and school board
4 members and principals with 110 Livingston
5 Street. Why should we go to Brooklyn to talk to
6 the chancellor? They're not listening to us.
7 And so we're bringing the chancellor to them in
8 the form of a deputy.
9 That's why we're doing it, so
10 your characterization, Senator, is skewed as far
11 -- far as your view of the goals of what we're
12 trying to achieve here. What we did say that
13 we'd appoint a deputy for each borough to meet
14 as a consultant with borough presidents, stop
15 right there, the borough presidents elected by
16 everybody in that county.
17 He or she has a responsibility.
18 I think we would have to accept and think,
19 generally speaking, they're responsible.
20 Secondly, to meet with the superintendent who is
21 responsible, he or she, to the folks of that
22 district, to meet with everybody, to be
23 accessible and available.
100
1 I see nothing wrong with that.
2 To me that's only a positive. This system is
3 used. It's too big. The only way you can
4 manage it more effectively is to decentralize it
5 in a productive way. The deputy chancellor will
6 do that if he or she is doing the job we have
7 outlined for them to do.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Mendez.
9 SENATOR MENDEZ: Madam President,
10 what we're doing with this bill is so far
11 centralizing the entire educational endeavor.
12 We're so far centralizing it and on top of that,
13 we have the nerve to impose another layer of
14 bureaucracy with a deputy chancellor in each
15 borough, and also -- and to me to think about
16 the governance of the school system and creating
17 a structure that makes sense, how could it
18 possibly be that we demand accountability from
19 the bottom, but in the top no, no. The -- the
20 reasoning must have been that those on top of it
21 all are perfect in everything that they do, no
22 accountability whatsoever.
23 Then going at the -- the -- at
101
1 the performance of that central board, that
2 central board, since 1979, or '69, as it was
3 mentioned earlier by Senator Larry Seabrook,
4 since 1969, Madam President, there, the schools
5 in the city of New York were under the control
6 of the central board of education. What
7 happened to the chancellor? Have we seen
8 anything educationally that would merit for all
9 of us to live with those same people that have
10 been managing the system? They didn't give it
11 to the local school districts, right, they would
12 never have been able to manage it. They thought
13 and they have done such a very nasty, nasty job
14 that they should be ashamed of themselves.
15 They have squandered the money.
16 They have destroyed the educational future of
17 many young people because they have not been
18 representing them. They have not been
19 developing the kinds of kids that those people
20 need to be able to hold a job and do work, and
21 even though they have such a poor record, Madam
22 President, such a poor record, this Governor's
23 bill ignores it completely and leaves them to
102
1 keep on doing the same rotten thing that they've
2 been doing for such a long time.
3 Why, Senator Padavan, was not the
4 -- the deputy -- there hasn't been any account
5 ability here in this bill in governance. If
6 past behavior is the best predictor of future
7 behavior, my God, those people cannot be trusted
8 with changing the educational ambience for the
9 school system.
10 So, yes, perfection only in
11 heaven. Yes, a lot of energy was placed on this
12 bill, but it -- this bill will pass. The votes
13 are here. The chancellor will have all this
14 power, but this is the wrong way to go.
15 Governance of creating a structure must still
16 work with reforming the top as well as reforming
17 the bottom, very clearly stated, and in this
18 bill, everything on the bottom is no good. We
19 have to throw the baby out with the -- with the
20 water.
21 When -- out of the 32 local
22 community school boards, there are many, many of
23 those, the majority of those school boards have
103
1 not been stealing money. This is going to be
2 such a patronage machine, this is going to be -
3 this bill will produce such a patronage machine
4 that we'll be there and we'll see we'll be
5 unable to do it. Why? Because of the
6 editorials in the press. Because let's examine
7 the record of the -- the one-year record of the
8 chancellor. It's very good to be able to start
9 throwing blame to that school district and the
10 other and the other and the other. You give me
11 more power to do this, give me more power to do
12 that, but in this first year what's his report
13 card? Pleasing the press? Ignoring the mis
14 management of some of the actions of the central
15 board? I am appalled. I think that the kids in
16 New York City deserve much better than this,
17 Madam President. I really believe so.
18 We are together, we are
19 centralizing the system in the same way that it
20 was horribly centralized nine years ago before
21 we had the centralization bill, and we're
22 centralizing it and doing -- we'll be doing
23 exactly the same mistake but yes, Senator
104
1 Padavan knows that I know he's very interested
2 in educational opportunity for everybody. He
3 tries very hard for the energies and directive
4 of this, but they have been misdirected because
5 there are too many like unions that have not
6 been dealt with.
7 So I really cannot support this
8 bill. It's -- this is -- this bill is a
9 betrayal to the kids in the New York City public
10 school system and the sad things is especially
11 minority, with especialy minority kids in the
12 educational system doesn't provide the avenue
13 for upward mobility that they're going to be
14 condemned to a life of ignorance, a life of
15 economic dependency when all of us -- when all
16 the citizens of the state of New York are
17 spending our monies in trying to stop that, and
18 this bill will make certain that that will occur
19 in the future.
20 Thank you, Madam President.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
22 Senator Mendez.
23 Senator Leichter.
105
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, Madam
2 President.
3 I believe there are seven members
4 in the Legislature -- and they're all in this
5 house -- who voted on the last time we did
6 school governance in the city of New York. It
7 was Senator Marchi, Senator Goodman, Senator
8 Present and Senator Stafford who are in this
9 house at the present time. Then there were
10 three of us who were in the Assembly, Senator
11 Stavisky, Senator Sears and myself.
12 Of those seven, I was the only
13 one who voted against the decentralization bill
14 in 1969. I thought it was a flawed system. I'm
15 not going to stand here and say that I predicted
16 the problems that have evolved over the years,
17 but it seemed to me that what we were trying to
18 do in 1969 is to graft onto the city of New York
19 a school governance that may work in the suburbs
20 and rural areas, and I think it does work there,
21 but which really in the city of New York was
22 doomed.
23 Now, I think it was a well
106
1 intentioned effort. I think the purpose and the
2 aim really was to try to get parents more
3 involved in the schools, to get communities more
4 involved and in this way maybe to bring greater
5 flexibility and direction to the city school
6 system. I don't think anybody can stand up here
7 and say, well, decentralization has worked
8 pretty well. It hasn't. It's perfectly true
9 that there are a number of school boards that
10 have worked well. It's certainly true that
11 hundreds and hundreds of school board members
12 have labored hard under often difficult
13 situations, and tried to deal with the
14 educational needs within their districts.
15 It's also true that this
16 Legislature, since 1969, has been asked to deal
17 with school decentralization, and we have been
18 utterly paralyzed because the very same forces
19 that in 1969 made it so difficult to come to a
20 conclusion and probably led us to put together a
21 hybrid system made it so difficult in the years
22 afterwards to come to take any action to correct
23 education problems and difficulties within the
107
1 school decentralization system, particularly to
2 deal with some of the abuses that occurred in
3 the local boards.
4 We couldn't deal with the fact
5 that -- Senator Seabrook is perfectly correct,
6 that the districts no longer made sense after a
7 while because of shift in populations. We
8 couldn't deal with the relationship between the
9 mayor and the central board and I must say that
10 I know no issue since I've been in the
11 Legislature that draws as much heat and conflict
12 where there are as many forces. I don't want to
13 say special interest, they're not special
14 interests, they're teachers; they're parents;
15 they're staff; they're custodians; they're
16 administrators, all of whom have a particular
17 view as to governance.
18 But let's be very clear what
19 we're doing today is this is clearly and
20 evidently the end of decentralization. It was a
21 noble experiment. It failed, and we're writing
22 finis to it today.
23 I think that the pendulum is
108
1 swinging really all the way not only to
2 centralization but to a very strong centrali
3 zation, and we're really giving more powers to
4 the chancellor now than he had before 1969
5 because before 1969, principals were chosen from
6 lists of people who had taken exams. I believe
7 even superintendents at that time were chosen in
8 a manner which didn't give the chancellor almost
9 unfettered discretion, which he's going to have
10 under this system.
11 I think that, for reasons I've
12 stated, and I guess as expressed in my vote in
13 1969, I think it's -- it is certainly -- we
14 certainly have a need to go to a stronger
15 centralized system. I wouldn't go as far as
16 this system goes, but I think the changes -
17 changes need to be made.
18 I want to say that I think with
19 all the focus on governance, and governance is
20 important but it's really maybe a smaller part
21 of the equation of what makes good schools and
22 what's really going to help and educate our
23 children, and I don't know whether we should be
109
1 that fixated on governance itself.
2 The real need that we have in the
3 city school system is to provide more resources,
4 more funding. We have to deal with the problems
5 of our school facilities. The city schools, to
6 a large extent, are in a deplorable state in
7 many districts. We need additional schools,
8 we're short of seats. We have to modernize our
9 schools. We have to see that the schools have
10 books, that they have computers. These, really
11 much more than governance, are the things that
12 we have to address, and I just wanted to say to
13 Senator Padavan and all my colleagues, and I
14 think people have worked very hard here and have
15 sought to reach a resolution, but I don't think
16 that any of us can rest and say we've done the
17 job. We clearly haven't. We've put an end to a
18 system that hasn't worked. We've gone back to a
19 system and, as I said, strengthened the system
20 that had its problems before, but we're not
21 dealing with the problem -- with the need of
22 bringing resources into the city school system.
23 I guess like everybody else,
110
1 after having said don't be fixated on
2 governance, I, too have spent a lot of time
3 thinking what would be the ideal governance
4 system for the city of New York and in a way
5 it's a certain fantasy maybe to try to work this
6 out, particularly in this chamber and while some
7 of us have a great deal of background in
8 education and public policy relating to
9 education, most of us do not.
10 My belief is as I've expressed
11 before and I just wanted to put it out again,
12 that we really ought to have governance done by
13 a commission, and we ought to admit and concede
14 that this Legislature cannot come up with a good
15 governance system for the city of New York. The
16 pressures are just too great. Our knowledge is
17 too limited, that what we should do is the same
18 thing that Congress did in regard to school
19 based closings and to turn this over to a
20 commission of educators that will be chosen by
21 the Governor, by the mayor, by legislative
22 leaders, but above all, by educational leaders
23 such as the Commissioner of Education, the head
111
1 of educational teaching schools and have that
2 commission come up with a plan and the power of
3 the Legislature is limited solely to either vote
4 that plan up or down.
5 If it doesn't -- if it's not vot
6 ed down rather, just have the Legislature vote
7 it down. If it's not voted down, that automatic
8 ally becomes the governance system for the city
9 of New York. It's one of the things that we
10 have to realize that we have not at all dealt
11 with, the relationship between the chancellor
12 and the mayor, the central board. I don't know
13 why any of us are particularly comfortable with
14 the central board as it exists at this time.
15 So even as far as governance is
16 concerned, we've only really dealt with half a
17 loaf, but we are certainly ending some of the
18 abuses that have existed under a system that
19 hasn't worked well and, for that reason, I'm
20 going to support this bill, but I hope that all
21 of us can pledge that we have a serious
22 educational problem in the city of New York,
23 maybe in other parts of the state too. I won't
112
1 say maybe, I think in other parts of the state
2 also, but coming from New York I'm more familiar
3 with that, and I think that we really have an
4 obligation to continue to address the
5 educational needs of the children of the city of
6 New York. We have take some steps today. I
7 won't say it's a Band-Aid. It's more than that,
8 but it's not by any means the whole measure that
9 we need to take.
10 Thank you.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
12 Thank you, Senator.
13 The Chair would just remind that
14 debate on this particular piece of legislation
15 started at 8:14. That's not intended to curtail
16 anyone's debate, but just a reminder.
17 Next speaker is Senator Abate.
18 SENATOR ABATE: Would Senator
19 Padavan yield to a number of questions?
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
21 SENATOR ABATE: And, Senator,
22 before I ask you these questions, I just want to
23 share that I have similar concerns. I also am
113
1 confronted with a situation where I have one of
2 the best school boards in my district, some
3 extraordinary school board members, who happen
4 to also be parents who are committed. Some of
5 them work full time on that school board and
6 truly have the best interests of the children in
7 the district at hand, and I think are doing an
8 extraordinary job.
9 But there's some times in the
10 life of a legislator we have to go beyond, as
11 you said, the boundaries of our district and
12 look at the system as a whole.
13 I believe this bill is not a
14 cure-all. It is flawed, but I don't believe
15 it's fatally flawed. I am hoping, though, and I
16 want to ask a number of questions. There are a
17 number of issues I'm concerned with and I
18 believe that we will be coming back to this
19 Legislature to amend and rectify and clarify
20 some of these issues.
21 One of the issues, one that I'm
22 concerned with and maybe you can confirm is the
23 C-30 and C-37 processes now being codified in
114
1 this bill. Do you -- you know what the Circular
2 30 and Circular 37 process is? That is a process
3 where administrators and staff and parents
4 screen, collect resumes in the -- in the
5 selection of a superintendent and the
6 principal. Am I correct that this is being
7 codified -
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Let me answer
9 your question.
10 SENATOR ABATE: -- codified in
11 the existing structure or there are changes
12 being made?
13 SENATOR PADAVAN: Let me answer
14 the question to respond to your other rhetorical
15 questions.
16 First, it is not a panacea.
17 Early on in this evening, I made that point. I
18 said this is not a solution to all the problems
19 within our system. Senator Leichter, and
20 unfortunately he left, I wanted to say that he
21 was absolutely correct. Many of the problems
22 relate to resources -- space, capital
23 resources. So we understand that and we're
115
1 committed to do everything we can in that
2 regard.
3 Direct question, answer to your
4 question is yes, it does continue, and it's in
5 statute.
6 SENATOR ABATE: In existing form,
7 or does that legislation change the current
8 process?
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: It changes it
10 only in a positive way, in a sense that, by
11 virtue of mandating, you recall my earlier -- I
12 think you were here -- earlier explanation of
13 the issue of creation of school-based councils
14 and their training. I think because of that, we
15 will have a more effective screening because
16 you'll have people who are more knowledgeable,
17 more involved, and by the way I have a school
18 district like yours. I have three of them who I
19 think are outstanding and all the citywide
20 measures indicate it, and they are made up of
21 parents in the main, I said that earlier, who
22 really do a great job, but unfortunately we deal
23 with a total system in this law, and we have to
116
1 address the least among that system.
2 SENATOR ABATE: Would you
3 continue to yield?
4 SENATOR PADAVAN: Sure.
5 SENATOR ABATE: Since we are
6 diminishing the role of a community board in
7 selecting, in particular a principal, was there
8 consideration for the community board
9 representative in the C-37 process?
10 SENATOR PADAVAN: That never came
11 up, but I will say to you that I see no reason
12 and nothing in this legislation that precludes a
13 community school board member -- as you know,
14 the way they work is they get assigned to
15 different schools, you know they do that, and so
16 they become a little bit more knowledgeable
17 about a certain number of schools within that
18 district. There's nothing to preclude them from
19 becoming involved in that process, nothing
20 whatsoever.
21 SENATOR ABATE: I'm glad to hear
22 that. Also one of my other concerns and maybe
23 you can address, there was a flipping of the
117
1 process. It used to be that the superintendent
2 was selected -
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Correct.
4 SENATOR ABATE: -- by the
5 community board with the chancellor submitting a
6 number of resumes -
7 SENATOR PADAVAN: Correct.
8 SENATOR ABATE: -- to the board.
9 Now it's a flipping of that process.
10 SENATOR PADAVAN: That's correct.
11 SENATOR ABATE: But it does
12 retain the community board in terms of they now
13 have the opportunity of reviewing resumes that
14 are submitted to them by the C-30 process or is
15 it C-37, I guess for the superintendent?
16 SENATOR PADAVAN: One of the
17 other things -- one of the few things I would
18 take issue with Senator Leichter on is there are
19 still and continue to be lists for principals
20 and superintendents from which -- from which
21 these names, four names -- up to four names must
22 be selected so they all must meet certain
23 minimum requirements of education, training, and
118
1 so on. So principals, superintendents come from
2 lists that are there. They don't just get
3 picked out of the air.
4 SENATOR ABATE: But I think there
5 was great wisdom on the architects of this great
6 legislation to retain the community board in
7 that superintendent's selection.
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
9 SENATOR ABATE: Why wasn't that
10 same process where you retain the community
11 board's review replicated for the selection of
12 the principal? There's nowhere in the bill -
13 and that's another one of my concerns that I
14 really believe we're going to come back to
15 revisit. It doesn't give power to the community
16 board to select a principal. All I would
17 suggest is it should retain the power of the
18 community board to at least review resumes and
19 submit them to the superintendent.
20 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, to the
21 extent that within each school you have that
22 opportunity by the school-based councils that
23 are established here in law and the parental
119
1 bill of rights and everything else that's in
2 here in one section or the other and the school
3 board member assigned to that school certainly
4 is not precluded from becoming involved, but as
5 a group, you're right, as a group.
6 SENATOR ABATE: Why would you
7 retain it for the superintendent and not for the
8 principal selection?
9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Well, obviously
10 this was a negotiated bill, you understand that,
11 and we were trying to deal with certain abuses.
12 Principal selections -- Senator, I hate to say
13 this, but it has to be said. Principal
14 selections in certain parts of the city of New
15 York were done, if not in an illegal, certainly
16 in an unethical way. It may not have been your
17 district or mine, but it was going on, going
18 on. So in an effort to address that unfortunate
19 circumstance, as rarely as it might occur, this
20 was put in there in this fashion. That's the
21 honest answer to your question.
22 SENATOR ABATE: And, Senator, how
23 do you envision -- once these school-based
120
1 councils are developed, how will they co-exist
2 with the community school boards? Will the
3 school -- community school boards still retain
4 full prerogative on school policy?
5 SENATOR PADAVAN: Yes.
6 SENATOR ABATE: Will they share
7 that with the school councils?
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: The ultimate
9 authority -- and it's specified in here in the
10 section on community school boards with regard
11 to school policy, curriculum, things of that
12 sort -- remain with the community school board.
13 What we have, however, is an opportunity for
14 parents and teachers within a given school to be
15 more proactive in influencing that policy, which
16 I think is a desirable thing.
17 SENATOR ABATE: Thank you. Just
18 very briefly on the bill.
19 This is yet -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
21 Senator Abate, on the bill.
22 SENATOR ABATE: Yes. On balance
23 I will be supporting this bill, but this is
121
1 another example of how flawed our process is.
2 There's some great minds in the state Senate on
3 both sides of the aisle. I have been so
4 impressed by Senator Waldon and Senator
5 Seabrook, Stavisky, Senator Mendez. All the
6 people have raised issues of why this bill is
7 inadequate and deficiency -- has some
8 deficiencies.
9 If we had a process where not
10 three or four wise men made all the decisions
11 but we, in fact, had the ability where this bill
12 could go back into committee, we could mark it
13 up and do it on the merits of the issue, getting
14 input over time, reviewing it, not just ten
15 minutes before we do a debate, we would have a
16 better bill, not a bill that says it's near
17 perfect or less perfect or it's a bill of
18 compromise but one that really, in fact,
19 protects the children of this city, and until we
20 in the Legislature stop the way we do business,
21 do it differently, we will continue just
22 producing bills that only satisfy half our
23 needs.
122
1 So, again -- and you'll probably
2 hear me say I continue to be appalled at our
3 process of producing legislation, but I do
4 believe and I guess I come from a background
5 that if we're going to hold our managers
6 accountable, they have to be given the power to
7 fire and hire. They have to be given the tools,
8 the management and clear authority and then once
9 they ask for it -- and that's what we have been
10 hearing for years. We have been hearing from
11 the chancellor and superintendents they need the
12 power to improve the system to be held
13 accountable. We're going to give them this
14 power and now it is our job to work and make
15 sure they're accountable for the system.
16 I believe we will have to come
17 back and tinker with this because in order -
18 when we give more power to these individuals, we
19 must ensure that parents, particularly parents
20 and communities are empowered to monitor the
21 activities of these chance... this chancellor
22 and superintendents. We have to ensure that
23 they have information at hand so they can speak
123
1 out.
2 To the extent we create these
3 checks and balances, to the extent we keep them
4 in place, we will have a better system and we
5 will ensure an improvement of education in this
6 city.
7 My concern is, yes, we need to
8 create these reforms but have we in the process
9 destroyed some of these balances? It is now our
10 job because I believe this bill will pass to
11 really monitor what happens as a result of this
12 bill, not be reluctant if this bill does turn
13 out to be flawed and we have to amend it. It's
14 to be aggressive in monitoring this situation
15 and come back here and take the necessary steps
16 because in the long run, we have a tremendous
17 obligation to the million children in this city,
18 the parents and families that are concerned
19 about these children to make sure we do the
20 right thing.
21 The process stinks. The bill's
22 okay. It's better than doing nothing, but we
23 have a long way to go to feel that we go back
124
1 into their communities and to our communities
2 and say, we've done it all. We've improved the
3 system. We don't have to worry about our
4 children.
5 I go back tonight to my room,
6 perhaps to New York City at the end of the day
7 not feeling great. We've taken a small
8 measure. We're doing something but there's so
9 much more that needs to be done to improve the
10 education system in New York City.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:
12 Senator Montgomery.
13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. Thank
14 you, Mr. President.
15 I am sorry that the hour has
16 gotten very late, but I would be remiss if I did
17 not point out some of what I think are the
18 positive aspects of the bill, and I want to just
19 say to my colleagues that I speak with this
20 notice or this article from the New York Times,
21 November 2nd, which lists the 42 schools that
22 the commissioner has identified in the city of
23 New York. Half of them are in the Bronx. About
125
1 a forth of them are in Brooklyn and the rest are
2 in Manhattan and Queens. These are schools that
3 have been failing, some of them for so many
4 years that the commissioner has suggested that
5 within two years he is going to decertify them
6 if they are not improved immediately.
7 I would like to thank the
8 chancellor and the mayor who -- and the Governor
9 and especially the legislative leadership, all
10 of whom -- all of us, I believe have given
11 something that we cared a lot about in order to
12 get a bill passed. So this is really for me a
13 very significant milestone as it relates to
14 education in the city of New York, and I would
15 especially like to compliment the lead sponsor,
16 Senator Padavan, because I know it has been
17 difficult, and I would like to remind my
18 colleagues that it was notwithstanding the
19 Marchi Commission.
20 I believe the first year that I
21 came into the Legislature was the year that we
22 passed the legislation establishing the Marchi
23 Commission and from that we had hearings on and
126
1 on, and we didn't -- nothing happened,
2 unfortunately, and this time, however, for the
3 last over a year now, there have also been
4 hearings on this particular issue and there have
5 been a lot of negotiations and discussions by
6 both legislators and the public, including the
7 press, on various elements of this bill.
8 So it is not -- though we did not
9 see the bill and certainly I can absolutely not
10 accept the process by which we do most pieces of
11 legislation, this one, in fact, has had an
12 enormous amount of attention and discussion and
13 work by the people who have been involved in it,
14 and I know that we all have so much -- so many
15 other things that we have to attend to that we
16 can't keep up with all of the legislation, but
17 this one has been really debated fairly fully
18 and there's a lot in here I believe that we
19 should feel very good about.
20 I would just like to focus on the
21 powers and duties of the chancellor as of this
22 legislation because we now for once I think have
23 put in statute the clear and definitive
127
1 authority of the educational leader in the city
2 of New York to run the system, hopefully. It
3 says that the -- Section 2590 under "powers and
4 duties," the chancellor shall promote equal
5 educational opportunity for all students in the
6 schools, promote fiscal and educational equity,
7 increase student achievement and school
8 performance and encourage local school-based
9 innovation.
10 The chancellor shall now, based
11 on this legislation, develop clear frameworks
12 and mandatory educational objectives applicable
13 to all schools and programs throughout the
14 City.
15 The chancellor shall promote the
16 involvement and appropriate input of all members
17 of the school community to the -- pursuant to
18 provisions of this article, ensuring that the
19 districts do the same.
20 By 1998, based on this statute,
21 there must be a plan in place whereby every
22 school district will be in compliance with -
23 and I'm reading on page 13. It says they will
128
1 be in compliance -- in full compliance and
2 remain in compliance with state and federal law,
3 including Section 100.11, 100.11 which is what
4 parents use a lot to argue that they should be
5 involved in schools. That has not been in
6 statute. It now is.
7 By 1998 in November, there shall
8 be a parent bill of rights which spells out the
9 rights of parents including access to
10 information about all meetings, hearings of the
11 chancellor, the city board, the community
12 superintendents, the community boards and the
13 schools and they shall have the right to
14 information about their own schools. They shall
15 have the right to participate in decision-making
16 and they shall, in addition, have access to
17 information regarding programs that allow
18 students to apply for admission outside of their
19 districts.
20 In addition, the chancellor shall
21 establish a publicly inclusive process for the
22 recruitment, screening and selection of district
23 superintendent candidates. That is an
129
1 improvement over what we have now.
2 In addition, the chancellor
3 shall intervene in any district or school which
4 is persistently failing to achieve educational
5 results and standards approved by the city board
6 or established by the state Board of Regents.
7 To my colleague who has
8 questioned the definition of "persistent
9 failure", it is, in fact, defined in the
10 legislation. On page 18, it says "Persistent
11 educational failure of the school shall be
12 defined in regulations of the chancellor to
13 include a pattern of poor or declining
14 achievement, a pattern of poor or declining
15 attendance, disruption or violence and
16 continuing failure to meet chancellor's
17 performance standards and/or other standards."
18 In addition, the chancellor
19 shall appoint now a deputy borough chancellor
20 for each of the boroughs in the city of New
21 York.
22 Mr. President -- Madam President,
23 on school-based budgeting which has been a major
130
1 concern of parents in the city of New York as
2 well as community -- other community people,
3 Section 2590 on page 23 states that by November
4 1998, there shall be a plan whereby school-based
5 budgeting and the school-based budgeting process
6 and all that is inherent in the decision-making
7 around that be in place and be operative.
8 So let me just say that, no, we
9 certainly have not covered everything in the
10 legislation that we would be concerned about and
11 I certainly would like to see a more perfect
12 piece of legislation, but I can tell you -- no,
13 I will not yield, Madam President. I want to
14 complete my thoughts. I can tell you that as a
15 parent and as a citizen who pays taxes and as a
16 former school board member, as a former school
17 board president and as a person who has
18 supported school board members who have run as
19 recently as this past election, I am totally and
20 completely committed to the process of public
21 education, and one of the things that the
22 chancellor has said on many different occasions
23 is that this system must develop the ability to
131
1 correct itself. We are headed on a destructive
2 path as it relates to public education in the
3 city of New York, and if we don't take some
4 steps to make some changes that will at least
5 allow for an opportunity for education to take
6 place and for someone to be accountable for
7 maintaining educational standards, we will not
8 be able to enjoy a public education system as we
9 know it in the next dozen years, clearly.
10 So, no, this is not perfect.
11 However, Madam President and my colleagues, this
12 is a step in the right direction. It places
13 decision-making authority at the level of the
14 parents, puts it in statute, puts school-based
15 budgeting at the site of the school, gives
16 teachers and principals and parents an
17 opportunity to participate meaningfully in the
18 decision-making process, makes superintendents
19 now accountable to the chancellor who we pay to
20 be head of the education system in the city of
21 New York and gives us an opportunity to at least
22 hold that person accountable for making sure
23 that those standards are maintained.
132
1 We must not continue to have
2 dozens and dozens of schools year in and year
3 out sit where there are children in those
4 schools who cannot read, who cannot write, who
5 cannot think, yet at some point in their lives,
6 they are going to come out of those schools and
7 what do we do with them? So we must do
8 something to upgrade education and to upgrade
9 the system of education in the city of New York.
10 This is a bill that has been
11 agreed upon by our chancellor, agreed upon by
12 the Board of Ed' president, agreed upon by all
13 of the other political parties that we need to
14 have on board. Now it's our turn. It is our
15 turn to say that we support the children of New
16 York and their ability to receive a quality
17 education and that means that someone is now
18 accountable for establishing and maintaining and
19 enforcing that there are educational standards
20 in New York City.
21 So I am very happy that we are
22 here and, if it takes all night, that's just
23 fine because this is legislation which will
133
1 impact on our young people and the state of New
2 York for generations to come.
3 So, Madam President, I will be
4 supporting this legislation.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
6 Senator Montgomery.
7 Senator Lachman.
8 SENATOR LACHMAN: Madam Chair, on
9 the bill, without any questions to Senator
10 Padavan -- we'll let him rest. He's worked hard
11 enough this evening -- I believe that this bill
12 embodies an idea whose time has come and, as
13 Voltaire has said, nothing is as powerful in
14 this world as an idea whose time has come, and
15 whether we realize it or not, ladies and
16 gentlemen, we who are here this evening in this
17 chamber, exhausted and tired and yawning and
18 cold and sleepy, are participating in history,
19 history that has only occurred four other times
20 in the last 195 years.
21 School governance was changed in
22 1805, in 1842, in 1896, in 1969 and now in
23 1996. They all related to specific problems and
134
1 they were only successful, those that were
2 successful when they dealt with incremental
3 reform. This bill that we are discussing this
4 evening deals with incremental reform. It does
5 not deal with the entire picture. It does not
6 deal with the second or third story. It deals
7 with the entry level first story.
8 We could never get a bill out of
9 this chamber or the adjoining chamber if we
10 tried to change the entire picture because there
11 are 101 different ideas, not Dalmatians but
12 ideas, as to how to change the total picture,
13 but we can improve the lot of the school
14 children in the city of New York with this bill
15 with incremental reform. Why?
16 1. It puts on the desk of the
17 chancellor educational accountability. There
18 will now be a person in the city of New York,
19 not the mayor, not the Governor, not the
20 Majority or Minority Leaders of this chamber or
21 the Speaker or the Minority Leader of the other
22 chamber but the chancellor and the central board
23 of education to make certain that the
135
1 educational improvements will continue and what
2 we should do in the next session of the
3 Legislature is create an evaluative mechanism or
4 framework to evaluate this to make certain that
5 this is an improvement that works.
6 2. It enhances the most important
7 power that any local school board member would
8 want to have and remember local school board
9 members are not defined by federal law as LEAs
10 or members of local educational authorities.
11 That is a power given only to the central board
12 of education. How does this enhance the power
13 of local school boards?
14 The only way that any board
15 should have its power enhanced, it enhances
16 their policy-making role. That is the job of
17 school board members throughout the width and
18 breadth of the United States and that should be
19 the job of community school board members in New
20 York City as well as central board members in
21 New York City. That is the power given to them
22 in 2590 of the Education Law, I believe Section
23 (e). Correct me if I'm wrong in that.
136
1 This law that we are about to
2 pass, because it believes in incremental reform,
3 because it believes you can change everything
4 overnight, is of historic importance. It has
5 zero tolerance for corruption. It has zero
6 tolerance for the idea that some children cannot
7 learn. All children can learn and they should
8 have the very best educational leader fighting
9 for them day and night and that should be the
10 chief educational officer of the city of New
11 York, the chancellor of the city of New York.
12 So, ladies and gentlemen, the
13 hour is late. I will not keep you longer. All
14 I can say is this is not a bill that I would
15 have necessarily written in all its aspects and
16 its parts, but getting legislative reform
17 through is the science or art of compromise and
18 the Legislature is doing that.
19 I would have preferred that we
20 would have had more time to review this, that we
21 would have had more input in the process, both
22 Majority and Minority in both chambers, but
23 having said that, the major issue is do we
137
1 tonight reach out to major educational reform in
2 incremental steps, or do we reject it and get
3 nothing in return? I go for the former and not
4 the latter and, therefore, am proud to support
5 this legislation.
6 Thank you.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
8 Senator.
9 Senator Smith.
10 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Madam
11 President.
12 On the bill. I returned to
13 Albany with great expectations for a true reform
14 in school governance. Once again, I'm
15 disappointed, for all that I think that we've
16 accomplished in this bill is to transfer power
17 from the duly elected school board members to an
18 appointed chancellor, and if I remember
19 correctly, he arrived by plane, not by
20 immaculate conception.
21 I also believe that the
22 chancellor who is subject to removal if he does
23 not tread lightly or duck swiftly when in
138
1 proximity to the mayor of the city of New York
2 has another problem. The enhancement of the
3 chancellor's ability to intervene merits
4 consideration. However, the mechanism is not
5 defined clearly, nor is criteria established to
6 define what a failing school shall mean.
7 This bill seems to say if a
8 school board member has a conversation with the
9 superintendent or another school board member
10 regarding the assignment of an employee, he or
11 she can be subject to removal.
12 It further allows the chancellor
13 to remove any school board member or community
14 school district superintendent for conduct which
15 in the judgment of the chancellor is contrary to
16 the best interests of the city school district.
17 Who's to say the chancellor's judgment is not
18 obscured or tainted? I do applaud the training
19 initiatives but see no financial support for
20 this effort.
21 I'm also a supporter of the
22 parents' bill of rights and a definite advocate
23 of school-based budgeting but these inclusions
139
1 are not enough to outweigh the negatives or the
2 admissions within this legislation or to
3 encourage me to vote against the children, the
4 parents and the interests of the community.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
6 Senator Smith.
7 Looking for Senator Markowitz.
8 Senator Markowitz.
9 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Thank you
10 very much. We've heard a lot of arguments
11 tonight. One thing I'm convinced about that
12 there's not a single piece of legislation that
13 will satisfy all our concerns, may meet all our
14 objectives and overcome many obstacles that face
15 the future of education in New York City.
16 I think we can all agree, you
17 show me where there's the greatest amount of
18 parental involvement and I'll show you schools
19 that are working almost regardless of any school
20 district boundaries and that's true, and so the
21 prime objective of this legislation, I hope,
22 especially by strengthening parent councils in
23 the schools is to get and challenge our parents
140
1 to take a greater interest with their physical
2 being in the schools and to follow up with their
3 children at home to make sure that the school
4 system is working regardless of the
5 professionals that are in the schools. It is
6 the parents ultimately that have to challenge
7 the educational system to work for their kids.
8 I serve three different school
9 districts, one, one of the best in the city and
10 state of New York, District 22 which I believe
11 the chancellor will make a charter school
12 district and give that district the greatest
13 opportunity to make decisions very largely free
14 from the central board of education.
15 I represent District 17 that the
16 former chancellor superseded because the
17 political makeup of the board could never come
18 to an agreement on anything, hiring of
19 principals, assistant principals, anything.
20 They hated each other so much that absolutely
21 nothing got done in two years, absolutely
22 nothing, and the system came to a halt.
23 And then I represent as well
141
1 District 15 which recently elected four new
2 school members -- school board members and had
3 been served tremendously efficiently by
4 superintendent Bill Casey and unknown to any of
5 us, the four of those new school board members
6 made a deal and fired him this year, a superb
7 professional that is admired throughout the city
8 of New York, and so they are now advertising for
9 a new superintendent.
10 So I have three different
11 districts with three different facts. One thing
12 I know that we have to make sure that when all
13 is said and done, we pray that our mayor and the
14 chancellor of the board of ed' have the wisdom
15 and have the foresight, the drive and ambition,
16 skills to be able to live up to the responsi
17 bilities that we are now entrusting in our
18 current and future chancellors.
19 We have to hope and pray that the
20 mayor of New York and the borough presidents put
21 education on the first level of concern. We
22 have to make sure and hope that the city Legis
23 lature and, yes, this Senate will not turn their
142
1 faces away as we've done too many times in the
2 past, ignore the needs of public education in
3 New York City and share, in my opinion, in the
4 responsibility of the current condition of too
5 many of the schools and school districts in New
6 York City today. We share some of that blame
7 and responsibility, and so maybe we have to take
8 this step, the step that we are about to enact
9 to convince all of us that public education must
10 -- must be on the top of our concerns.
11 I have a prediction, Senator
12 Montgomery and Senator Padavan. I have a
13 prediction. Once we get this school system
14 working again in New York City and once you are
15 convinced that corruption is at the lowest
16 possible level of incidence -- and I hope
17 totally eliminated -- once the fiscal moderates
18 work -- and let's hope the New York City
19 comptroller and the New York State comptroller
20 beef up their fiscal monitors because you show
21 me where the money is, leasing, compliance,
22 procurement, contracts, I'll show you the
23 possibility of corruption, and so we have to
143
1 make sure that these bureaucrats that are
2 entrusted with our public monies have proper
3 fiscal monitors to make sure that the law of
4 money is minimized to the greatest degree
5 possible, but something will tell me that
6 they'll be coming back to this Legislature and
7 they'll raise the issue that I think exists
8 today as much as yesterday, and that is that we
9 continue to shortchange the New York City Board
10 of Education with the proper amounts of money
11 that we need to give our kids a real chance at a
12 real quality education.
13 Senator Cook visited my district
14 about a year ago. You compare the quality of
15 our classrooms and schools, the level of
16 instruction, material, supplies of Westchester,
17 Nassau and Suffolk County compared to schools in
18 the inner city communities such as Senator
19 Smith's, Senator Montgomery and I and others
20 around this room, and you'll understand that you
21 can pass all the governance you want. If you
22 don't give our school system the resources and
23 attention that they need to give kids in the
144
1 middle of Brooklyn the same opportunities that
2 children receive in the middle of Westchester,
3 all of this will mean little.
4 I'll support this because this is
5 a hope that maybe this will work. Maybe this
6 will be the answer because if it brings you to
7 the table and if you take an interest in our
8 educational achievement, then we've taken a
9 major step this evening.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
11 Senator Markowitz.
12 Senator Connor.
13 SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you, Madam
14 President.
15 I was on the phone with Senator
16 Bruno. I told him I didn't want to hold up this
17 session by finishing our conversation.
18 Madam President, I have over the
19 years, going back some 25 years long before I
20 was a state Senator, had occasion through a then
21 law practice I had and had for a few years
22 thereafter to see candidates and boards in just
23 about every one of the 32 community school
145
1 boards, and I observed as either clients or
2 opponents, candidates that range from the most
3 concerned, caring and often talented people whom
4 anyone would be proud to have making educational
5 policy decisions as well as personnel decisions
6 in any school system in this state, to the mere
7 mediocre, to the outright hustlers, all in
8 various districts. Some districts were
9 fortunate enough over the years to have more of
10 the former. Others generally had more of the
11 middle type and unfortunately a few districts
12 seemed to always get stuck with the hustlers.
13 You know, I understand long
14 before my time, I certainly understand the
15 concerns and impetus that brought about the
16 concept of community control and, indeed,
17 legitimate aspirations are embodied in that and
18 I think ought to be continued as much as
19 possible, but unfortunately with the sometimes
20 rampant abuses in some districts, sometimes off
21 and on abuses in other districts -- and I've
22 seen cases where, so to speak, the good guys and
23 good women threw out a bad crew and revitalized
146
1 the school district and over those years, those
2 decades, literally several generations of New
3 York City school children passed through this
4 system and everyone agrees that in major areas
5 of the City, many, many schools are just
6 broken. The educational system is unresponsive
7 to the parents, the needs of the children, the
8 community, the people they serve and above all,
9 the future of our city and state, and we've all
10 heard charges and certainly the charges -- and
11 many of them substantiated the corruption -- are
12 intolerable and to the extent there may be
13 systemic causes, we ought to root them out.
14 We have also heard charges they
15 just simply fail as administrators and I have,
16 knowing so many candidates and talked to so many
17 people over the years, you know, simply observed
18 something that many of us observed in our own
19 political life, and that is just because you can
20 win an election, it doesn't really make you a
21 great manager or a great administrator.
22 In the case of all but our top
23 executive officers in government, it's okay.
147
1 Sometimes the finest legislators nationally and
2 on a state level have been people who weren't
3 the world's best administrators, but that's not
4 primarily why they're elected to those offices.
5 In the case of the administrative
6 powers these community boards had when you had a
7 board -- and as I said, just because you can win
8 an election doesn't mean you know how to do a
9 budget. It doesn't mean you know how to make
10 personnel decisions. In many school districts
11 -- and they run the gamut from the more priv
12 ileged areas of the City to the poorer areas,
13 and I've seen it in all kinds of districts -
14 you have people on the school board making
15 important personnel decisions regarding who's
16 the superintendent, who's the principal and the
17 assistant principal who, because of what their
18 life experience was, probably never interviewed
19 people before in their lives and now they're
20 interviewing candidates for principal because
21 they're on whatever committee of the school
22 board it is and they're making that decision and
23 there have been occasions with some tragic
148
1 consequences and other mere unfortunate
2 consequences where the best salesperson, the
3 best snake oil salesperson talked their way into
4 a principalship, to say nothing of those cases
5 where a relative, friend or crony talked their
6 way into a principalship.
7 The other charges I've heard
8 against the present system have involved the
9 over-politicization of the system. We addressed
10 that some years ago when we ruled that elected
11 officials couldn't run for school boards, party
12 officials couldn't run for school boards, indeed
13 employees of the board of education, teachers,
14 and so on, couldn't run for the school board.
15 We did make that so-called reform, but what I
16 always said at the time is when you set up an
17 election and you say to people, "Get a peti
18 tion, get on the ballot and win an election",
19 why should we be shocked when they behave like
20 politicians? That's what politicians do. They
21 run for office and try to win elections. So
22 that charge has always to me sounded kind of
23 silly. Let's depoliticize the elections. Well,
149
1 that's like -- I can think of a million
2 analogies but, you know, if it looks like an
3 election, it's going to attract politicians.
4 It's going to attract people who are very
5 politically sensitive in the positive sense as
6 well as perhaps overly political in the sense
7 that some people find negative when it's
8 connected to the schools because people who
9 would run for office march for support. They
10 encourage and cajole people into backing them.
11 They have to raise money to produce materials
12 and indeed why should we after all these decades
13 be shocked that there's so much politics in the
14 system? We set it up that way many, many years
15 ago.
16 That brings us down to today -
17 and, you know, I always laugh at some of the
18 reforms. Some of the good government groups
19 that were concerned about too much political
20 involvement in the school board elections were
21 also concerned about the lack of voter
22 participation in the elections. Their solution
23 -- their solution is -- was and it didn't make
150
1 it into this bill, though they will study it,
2 their solution is let's hold the school board
3 elections on Election Day when all the
4 politicians run. That'll really help take the
5 politics out of it when, in fact -- and this is
6 a great -- look at all of the reform groups.
7 This is one of the big reforms. Well, I for
8 myself in my 19 years representing at various
9 times -- probably I represented parts of nine or
10 ten community school boards. I have -- and that
11 literally involves over those many, many
12 elections hundreds and hundreds of school board
13 candidates and with the exception of one person
14 one year who was a very, very close personal
15 friend, I have never, ever, ever endorsed a
16 school board candidate and slates would come to
17 me and people would come to me and sometimes I
18 would be helpful to a group of parents and I'd
19 say, "Look, I don't endorse. If you want some
20 technical advice with your petitions, I would be
21 happy to bind them for you as a favor so you're
22 not thrown off the ballot, but I don't endorse
23 in school board elections" and I never did, and
151
1 then I started thinking, well, we brought about
2 this great reform and now my name is on the
3 ballot for state Senator and a slate is coming
4 to me and saying, "Connor, endorse us. We're
5 going to be out at the polling places. We're
6 going to have our -- whatever they are, parents,
7 union members, whomever, at all of the polling
8 places pushing our slate of school board
9 candidates. This is the most important thing to
10 us and, if you don't endorse us, you won't be on
11 the materials we hand out and maybe your
12 opponent will be because maybe he or she is more
13 cooperative."
14 It all sounds familiar to us
15 because we run in elections every two years.
16 That idea of taking the politics out by somehow
17 or other involving the greater electorate and
18 all the political forces that come to bear on
19 Election Day is to me totally absurd and
20 contrary to the stated purpose. It's illogical,
21 totally illogical, yet I read editorials from
22 some of the finest news organizations in this
23 state. I've seen editorials in New York, "Why
152
1 don't you make it on primary day", of course,
2 engaging in sometimes the wrong New York City
3 assumption that the only primaries can be in the
4 Democratic Party and only in New York City and
5 I've always said, Well, what's more partisan
6 than primary day, particularly if one party has
7 a primary and the other doesn't? Now we see in
8 this bill a physical impossibility.
9 Madam President, it reminds me of
10 once reading about the Texas Senator a number of
11 years ago where a member introduced and the
12 Senate unanimously passed a bill to make pi 3.0
13 because it would be easier for the school
14 children of Texas to learn and remember. They
15 passed the bill, Madam President, but pi
16 remained the same. I think it's -- oh, boy -
17 3.143 whatever. I used to know more digits
18 after that.
19 We now have a bill that says this
20 task force is going to work out the details but
21 we're going to keep proportional representation,
22 which is actually the single transferable ballot
23 first used in Shire state, Eire, the Irish Free
153
1 State, in 1922 and still applied in the Republic
2 of Ireland only in multi-member districts, not
3 countrywide, and it does ensure Minority
4 representation, but it's a complicated system
5 because you have to transfer ballots.
6 Madam President, throughout the
7 city of New York, regretfully late because I was
8 on the voting machine commission many years ago
9 that authorized automated voting machines, and
10 I'm sure I'll shock my upstate colleagues
11 because in most places I'm familiar with outside
12 of New York City, you have computerized voting
13 equipment of one kind or other, ATMs,
14 votamatics, this, that and the other thing. We
15 still have old Shoup mechanical machines with a
16 mechanical teller that when you click it, it
17 goes from one to two -- as long as it started at
18 zero as it's supposed to -- to three, to four,
19 and so on. You can't transfer ballots on a
20 Shoup machine, on a mechanical machine.
21 There are some computer voting
22 machines that can handle that kind of election,
23 but this bill says without paper ballots -- as
154
1 if paper ballots somehow were -- you know, I
2 think it's because people don't like the fact
3 that this whole system to count the ballots
4 takes a week or two. We've now mandated that
5 they've -- keep proportional representation, but
6 it can't be on paper. It's got to be on
7 machines.
8 Madam President, there's no
9 machine today in the city of New York that can
10 do that. It's like the Texas Senate passing a
11 bill, making pi 3.0. It may please some reform
12 minded people who have urged this. I've seen
13 mindless editorials saying why don't we just do
14 it on the machines. It cannot be done. You
15 could hold school board elections on the
16 machines if you used a plurality system or a
17 multiple vote system, and so on. You cannot do
18 that kind of election on a voting machine, not
19 unless you had many days of balloting and many,
20 many machines, and you don't have that.
21 The other thing, by the way, for
22 those people who say we should have it on
23 regular Election Day, in effect, would
155
1 complicate all of our elections because in
2 school board elections in the city of New York,
3 non-citizens and parent voters who are
4 non-residents are allowed to vote, which would
5 mean people would be coming into a polling place
6 in my district who live somewhere else but
7 children go to school there. You let them in
8 the machine. They now vote for state Senator.
9 Maybe they're not a state citizen. They now
10 vote for Congress. It cannot be done legally,
11 and physically you cannot accommodate this
12 election on the machines. So all the good
13 intentions of all the well meaning reformers
14 with respect to the elections, I humbly submit
15 some of us know more about elections than they
16 do.
17 The fact of the matter, though,
18 is while I'm sponsoring this bill and while it
19 is far from perfect, it does an essential
20 thing. It creates change where change is needed
21 and in and of itself, given the history of the
22 last decade, that's a valuable thing with
23 respect to our school system.
156
1 Secondly, we have a chancellor in
2 the city of New York, Dr. Crew -- and I wouldn't
3 care who it was, but he's the current one. I
4 remember meeting with him last year and asked
5 for certain -- more powers and I said, "Dr.
6 Crew, didn't you understand when you took this
7 job and you came in, big salary, beautiful home
8 -- three blocks from my home -- that the city
9 of New York owns, big important job, lots and
10 lots of responsibility, the largest school
11 system there is, didn't you understand -- and,
12 you know, you came in talking about reading
13 scores of fifth graders and third graders,
14 didn't you, Doctor, understand that you
15 absolutely had no power or control over the
16 elementary schools in the city of New York", and
17 he said, "Well, no, I didn't."
18 It's history. One wonders, I
19 guess. I became a state Senator and came into
20 this body in the Minority and I had no real idea
21 what that was like either, but I had enthusiasm
22 and he has enthusiasm and he has talent.
23 So I realize we've done something
157
1 with this system and we've seen the succession
2 of chancellors go with less than rave reviews or
3 in controversy and some had rave reviews and
4 earned it at a great price.
5 We give someone responsibility,
6 we say. We politically and in the press hold
7 him accountable for improvements, improvements
8 in reading scores, in math scores, improvements
9 in school attendance, improvements in the
10 conditions in the schools, improvements in the
11 cleanliness of the schools, improvements in the
12 quality of principals and supervision, and so
13 on. We're going to hold him accountable. A
14 year or two down the road the tabloids will
15 start or the reviews will start, the failure of
16 the chancellor or the success of the
17 chancellor. All too often those headlines about
18 past chancellors have intimated failure or at
19 least not achieving goals, yet we do not empower
20 this person one iota to carry out his vision,
21 his philosophy and his agenda and goals. If you
22 cannot put in or have a role in putting into
23 positions of power superintendents, people who
158
1 agree with your philosophy, who embrace your
2 enthusiasm and who accept your goals and work
3 toward them, then how can you be held
4 accountable for the failure that results, and if
5 you can't remove people who don't measure up,
6 how can you be held accountable for their
7 failures, and this applies down through the
8 system.
9 If you are a superintendent and
10 you can't pick the principals that work for you
11 day in and day out or you can't remove a
12 principal or transfer a principal, how can
13 someone hold you accountable for their success
14 or failures and ultimately for your own success
15 or failure, and that's a fundamental principle
16 of management.
17 We are going to hold the
18 chancellor accountable and we always do usually
19 with a lot of noise and hullabaloo and we don't
20 give them the basic tools that every one of us
21 has and that is to put in place, assisting him
22 in carrying out his agenda the people he thinks
23 meet those criteria. Indeed, we have denied him
159
1 the power to remove people who are patently
2 unfit no matter what the agenda goals or
3 philosophy of the person running the system is.
4 So I don't think this is a
5 perfect bill and we can pick it apart and pick
6 it apart, but it represents change and it does
7 represent giving the power to take action and to
8 compel action to the person in whom we have the
9 expectations that it will do so, and that's a
10 fundamental principle of management, and it's no
11 wonder if you look back that there were failures
12 when, in fact, we put very, very well qualified
13 people who had been a great -- many of whom have
14 been great successes in other large cities,
15 although none -- I mean, you come from a large
16 city school system elsewhere in America and
17 there are more students in the school district
18 in the Bronx and more schools than in entire
19 cities elsewhere, but we've taken people with
20 excellent credentials, great ideas, a good
21 educational philosophy, enthusiasm and
22 willingness to work and we have crushed them,
23 crushed them under our wild expectations that
160
1 someone can do something when we don't give them
2 the basic tools to accomplish that. That's why,
3 Madam President, I'm on this bill. That's why
4 I'm voting for this bill.
5 Thank you.
6 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
7 Read the last section, please.
8 SENATOR PADAVAN: Madam
9 President, if I may.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I'm sorry.
11 Senator Padavan.
12 SENATOR PADAVAN: I will be very,
13 very brief in closing debate.
14 The final remarks of the Minority
15 Leader, I think crystallize something that I
16 said about three hours ago and I'm grateful to
17 him for repeating it. If there's any one
18 component in this bill it's now that we are now
19 statutizing a system of authority,
20 responsibility and accountability that we didn't
21 have previously.
22 I would also point out -- I'd
23 also point out with regard to his remarks
161
1 relevant to voting, we have provided a mechanism
2 to do away with that proportional system as he
3 pointed out by using the machine and having that
4 task force come back and tell us how we best
5 could do it and that will be an improvement.
6 Most of what I would say here and
7 now has been said by all of you and I'm not
8 about to repeat it. I think we're making a
9 major step forward. This is not the end. I
10 don't think there's ever an end -- can ever be
11 an end to the issue of education, of governance
12 or whatever you want to call it, as long as a
13 system of the size of the city of New York
14 exists and as long as we exist.
15 Future legislative bodies,
16 whether you and I are here or not is irrelevant,
17 will be considering changes to what we are doing
18 today and properly so because the system is
19 dynamic. It's not static. The problems that we
20 are experiencing today we did not experience a
21 decade ago and the problems ten years from now
22 will be different than they are today and that
23 will require a response from responsible people,
162
1 legislators and advocates and educators
2 throughout the system.
3 So, Madam President, I call for
4 the last section.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
6 Senator Padavan.
7 Read the last section, please.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 16. This
9 act shall take effect in 90 days.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll,
11 please.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 THE PRESIDENT: Votes will be
14 recorded in the negative.
15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
16 the negative on Calendar Number 1 are Senators
17 Gold, Kruger, Marchi, Santiago, Seabrook, Smith,
18 Stavisky and Waldon. Ayes 48, nays 8.
19 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
20 passed.
21 Senator Johnson.
22 SENATOR JOHNSON: Madam
23 President, may we now take up Calendar Number
163
1 2.
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
3 will read.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno
5 moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules
6 Assembly Bill Number 4, and substitute it for
7 the identical Third Reading Calendar Number 2.
8 THE PRESIDENT: The substitution
9 is ordered.
10 The Secretary will read.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 2, by the Assembly Committee on Rules, Assembly
13 Print Number 4, an act to amend Chapter 166 of
14 the Laws of 1991, amending the Tax Law.
15 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Johnson.
16 SENATOR JOHNSON: Is there a
17 message at the desk?
18 THE PRESIDENT: Yes, there is.
19 SENATOR JOHNSON: I move we
20 accept the message.
21 THE PRESIDENT: All in favor of
22 accepting the message at the desk signify by
23 saying aye.
164
1 (Response of "Aye".)
2 Opposed, nay.
3 (There was no response.)
4 The message is accepted.
5 Read the last section, please.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56.
11 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
12 passed. Recording in the negative, Senator
13 Stachowski.
14 SENATOR JOHNSON: Stand at ease
15 for a few moments, Madam President.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Mendez.
17 SENATOR MENDEZ: Madam President,
18 I was out of the chamber when the vote for
19 Calendar Bill Number 1 was taken. I would like
20 to vote in the negative.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Without
22 objection.
23 SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you.
165
1 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
2 stand at ease.
3 (Whereupon, the Extraordinary
4 Session of the Senate stood at ease from 11:10
5 p.m. until 11:33 p.m.)
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Extraordinary Session will come to order.
8 SENATOR JOHNSON: Mr. President,
9 the Senate will continue to stand in recess in
10 the Extraordinary Session. We'll reconvene the
11 Regular Session.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All
13 right. The Extraordinary Session will stand in
14 recess.
15 (Whereupon, the Senate stood in
16 recess from 11:50 p.m. until 12:27 a.m.)
17 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, at
18 this time can we reconvene the Extraordinary
19 Session.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Extraordinary Session will come to order.
22 Senator Bruno.
23 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, we
166
1 have a resolution that we are handing up. We
2 ask that the title be read and move for its
3 immediate adoption.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will read the title.
6 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno,
7 Senate Resolution Number 5, appointing a
8 committee to inform the Governor that the Senate
9 has completed business and is ready to adjourn.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 motion is to adopt the resolution. All those in
12 favor signify by saying aye.
13 (Response of "Aye".)
14 Opposed, nay.
15 (There was no response.)
16 The resolution is adopted.
17 The Chair appoints Senator
18 Johnson and Senator Lachman to wait upon the
19 Governor and inform the Governor that the Senate
20 has completed its business and is ready to
21 adjourn.
22 Senator Bruno.
23 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, we
167
1 have another resolution that we're handing up.
2 We ask that the title be read and we move for
3 its immediate adoption.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will read the title.
6 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno,
7 Senate Resolution Number 6, appointing a
8 committee to inform the Assembly that the Senate
9 has completed its business and is ready to
10 adjourn.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 question is on the resolution. All those in
13 favor signify by saying aye.
14 (Response of "Aye".)
15 Opposed, nay.
16 (There was no response.)
17 The resolution is adopted.
18 The Chair appoints Senator Spano
19 and Senator Seabrook, because he did such a
20 great job on the last one, to wait upon the
21 Assembly and inform the Assembly that the Senate
22 has completed its business and is ready to
23 adjourn.
168
1 On the prior committee, I note
2 that Senator Lachman was not here. So Senator
3 Johnson and Senator Abate would wait upon the
4 Governor to inform him that we have completed
5 our business and are ready to adjourn.
6 Senator Bruno.
7 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, we
8 have a final resolution. We ask that the title
9 be read and move its immediate adoption.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Secretary will read.
12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Bruno,
13 Concurrent Resolution Number 7, adjourning the
14 extraordinary session.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 question is on the resolution. All those in
17 favor of the resolution signify by saying aye.
18 (Response of "Aye".)
19 Opposed, nay.
20 (There was no response.)
21 The resolution is adopted.
22 SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, we
23 have finished our business in the Regular
169
1 Session and Special Session and wish everyone
2 here a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and
3 safe journey home.
4 Thank you, Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Extraordinary Session is adjourned.
7 (Whereupon, at 12:34 a.m.,
8 December 18, 1996 the Extraordinary Session of
9 the Senate adjourned.)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23