Regular Session - January 21, 1997

                                                             128

        1

        2

        3

        4

        5

        6

        7                       ALBANY, NEW YORK

        8                       January 21, 1997

        9                           3:03 p.m.

       10

       11

       12                        REGULAR SESSION

       13

       14

       15

       16      LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS,      

       17           President

       18        STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary

       19

       20

       21

       22

       23

       24

       25







                                                         129

        1                       P R O C E E D I N G S

        2                       THE PRESIDENT:  The Senate

        3        will come to order.  I would ask everyone to

        4        please rise and join me in the Pledge of

        5        Allegiance.

        6                       (The assemblage repeated the

        7        Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

        8                       THE PRESIDENT:  The invocation

        9        today will be given by Rabbi Nachman Simon,

       10        Chabad of the Lubavitch of the Capital

       11        District, Delmar, New York.

       12                       RABBI NACHMAN SIMON:  Soon it

       13        will be the 15th day of the Hebrew month of

       14        Chabad.  It is the celebration of the New

       15        Year for trees.

       16                       There are many lessons for us

       17        to learn from a tree.  A tree is made up of

       18        three parts:  Its roots, trunk and branches,

       19        and its fruit.

       20                       Since the Lubavitcher Bible

       21        compares human beings to trees, it is

       22        reasonable to believe that in certain

       23        circumstances, man has the three major, vital

       24        parts as part of his character.

       25                       The roots of a tree are hidden







                                                         130

        1        in the ground.  Even though they can't be

        2        seen, they play a most important role in the

        3        life of a tree.  The roots anchor and

        4        support, as well as draw nourishing moisture

        5        to the entire tree.  For us, the roots are

        6        faith of the Almighty that we draw upon

        7        constantly to carry out our day with the full

        8        belief that God has given us the ability to

        9        meet all challenges.

       10                       The trunk is the growth when

       11        we see ourselves striving higher and higher

       12        to reach our goal, even to the very skies;

       13        and finally, bearing fruit, so that others

       14        can benefit from our good deeds.

       15                       As the ethics of our Father

       16        teach us, if I'm not for myself, who will be

       17        for me; and if I'm only for myself, what am

       18        I?  And if not now, when?

       19                       May it be the will of the

       20        Almighty that He give us the strength to

       21        truly symbolize the tree, to draw upon and

       22        nourish from our roots upon which the state

       23        of New York has been founded and to continue

       24        to grow and add new opportunities for

       25        everyone and, finally, to help others so that







                                                         131

        1        they can be prospering trees and the entire

        2        world can reach perfection with the

        3        revelation of our righteous redeemer, the

        4        Meshia, and let us all say, Amen.

        5                       THE PRESIDENT:  Thank you,

        6        Rabbi Simon.

        7                       The reading of the Journal.

        8                       THE SECRETARY:  In Senate,

        9        Sunday, January 19.  The Senate met pursuant

       10        to adjournment.  The Journal of Saturday,

       11        January 18, was read and approved.  On

       12        motion, the Senate adjourned.

       13                       THE PRESIDENT:  Without

       14        objection, the Journal stands approved as

       15        read.

       16                       Presentation of petitions.

       17                       Messages from the Assembly.

       18                       Messages from the Governor.

       19                       Reports of standing

       20        committees.

       21                       Reports of select committees.

       22                       Communications and reports

       23        from state officers.

       24                       Motions and resolutions.

       25                       Senator Farley.







                                                         132

        1                       SENATOR FARLEY:  Thank you,

        2        Madam President.

        3                       On page 4, I offer up the

        4        following amendments to Calendar Number 6,

        5        Senate Print 169, and I ask that that bill

        6        retain its place on the Third Reading

        7        Calendar.  This is on behalf of Senator

        8        Maltese.

        9                       THE PRESIDENT:  Amendments

       10        received.

       11                       Senator Skelos?

       12                       SENATOR SKELOS:  Madam

       13        President, on behalf of Senator Bruno, in

       14        consultation with the Minority Leader 

       15                       THE PRESIDENT:  Is your

       16        microphone on?

       17                       Go ahead.

       18                       SENATOR SKELOS:  In

       19        consultation with the Minority Leader, on

       20        behalf of Senator Bruno, I hand up the

       21        following committee changes and ask that they

       22        be filed in the Journal.

       23                       THE PRESIDENT:  So ordered.

       24        Notice will be filed in the Journal.

       25                       SENATOR SKELOS:   There will







                                                         133

        1        be an immediate meeting of the Rules

        2        Committee in Room 332 of the Capitol.

        3                       THE PRESIDENT:   There is an

        4        immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in

        5        Room 332.

        6                       Senator Skelos, are you ready

        7        for the calendar?

        8                       SENATOR SKELOS:   Yes, if you

        9        could take up the non-controversial calendar.

       10                       THE PRESIDENT:  The Secretary

       11        will read.

       12                       THE SECRETARY:   Calendar

       13        Number 2, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print

       14        364A, an act to amend Chapter 452 of the Laws

       15        of 1993, amending the Executive Law.

       16                       THE PRESIDENT:    Read the

       17        last section, please.

       18                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 2 

       19                       SENATOR LEICHTER:  Lay it

       20        aside.

       21                       THE PRESIDENT:  Lay it aside,

       22        please.

       23                       THE SECRETARY:   Calendar

       24        Number 5, by Senator Velella, Senate Print

       25        92, an act to amend the Penal Law, in







                                                         134

        1        relation to arson in the second degree.

        2                       SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it

        3        aside.

        4                       THE PRESIDENT:  Lay it aside,

        5        please.

        6                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

        7        Number 7, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print

        8        178, an act to amend the Civil Practice Law

        9        and Rules, in relation to causes of action.

       10                       THE PRESIDENT:  Read the last

       11        section, please.

       12                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

       13        This act shall take effect on the first day

       14        of October.

       15                       THE PRESIDENT:  Call the roll.

       16                       (The Secretary called the

       17        roll.)

       18                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 35.

       19                       THE PRESIDENT:  The bill is

       20        passed.

       21                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

       22        Number 8, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 185,

       23        an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

       24        sexual performance by a child under the age

       25        of 18 years.







                                                         135

        1                       SENATOR LEICHTER:  Lay it

        2        aside.

        3                       THE PRESIDENT:  Lay it aside,

        4        please.

        5                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar 9, by

        6        Senator Tully, Senate Print 186, an act to

        7        amend the Penal Law, in relation to

        8        consecutive sentences in the calculation of

        9        sentences.

       10                       SENATOR LEICHTER:  Lay it

       11        aside.

       12                       THE PRESIDENT:  Lay it aside,

       13        please.

       14                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

       15        Number 10, by Senator Volker, Senate Print

       16        222, an act to amend the Penal Law and the

       17        Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to term

       18        of imprisonment for certain offenders.

       19                       SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it

       20        aside.

       21                       THE PRESIDENT:  Lay it aside,

       22        please.

       23                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

       24        Number 19, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 358,

       25        an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law,







                                                         136

        1        in relation to authorizing the proration of

        2        registration fees.

        3                       THE PRESIDENT:  Read the last

        4        section, please.

        5                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        6        This act shall take on the first day of

        7        September.

        8                       THE PRESIDENT:  Call the roll.

        9                       (The Secretary called the

       10        roll.)

       11                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 39.

       12                       THE PRESIDENT:  The bill is

       13        passed.  That completes the non-controver

       14        sial calendar.

       15                       Senator Holland.

       16                       SENATOR HOLLAND:  Can we stand

       17        at ease for a minute, Ma'am, awaiting the

       18        report of the Rules Committee?

       19                       THE PRESIDENT:  The Senate

       20        will stand at ease.

       21                       (Whereupon, the Senate stood

       22        at ease from 3:10 p.m. To 3:14 p.m.)

       23                       THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

       24        Holland.

       25                       SENATOR HOLLAND:  Madam







                                                         137

        1        President, may we return to reports of

        2        standing committees, and I believe there is a

        3        report of the Rules Committee at the desk.

        4                       THE PRESIDENT:  Reports of

        5        standing committees, the Secretary will read.

        6                       THE SECRETARY:  Senator Bruno,

        7        from the Committee on Rules, reports the

        8        following bills:  Senate Print 593, by

        9        Senator Spano, an act to amend the Public

       10        Authorities Law, in relation to the creation

       11        of the Westchester County Health Care

       12        Corporation System;

       13                       1117, by the Senate Committee

       14        on Rules, an act to amend the Public

       15        Authorities Law, in relation to the creation

       16        of the Nassau Health Care Corporation;

       17                       And Senate Print 1118, by the

       18        Senate Committee on Rules, an act to amend

       19        the Public Authorities Law, in relation to

       20        the reservation of the state's right to

       21        adjust Medicaid rates.

       22                       All bills ordered directly for

       23        third reading.

       24                       THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

       25        Holland.







                                                         138

        1                       SENATOR HOLLAND:  Madam

        2        President, I move to accept the report of the

        3        Rules Committee.

        4                       THE PRESIDENT:  All in favor

        5        of accepting the report of the Rules

        6        Committee, please signify by saying aye.

        7                       (Response of "Aye".)

        8                       Opposed, nay.

        9                       (There was no response.)

       10                       The report is accepted.

       11                       Senator Holland.

       12                       SENATOR HOLLAND:  Madam

       13        President, may we please take up the third

       14        reading of the Rules report at this time?

       15                       THE PRESIDENT:  The Secretary

       16        will read.

       17                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

       18        Number 21, by Senator Spano, Senate Print

       19        593, an act to amend the Public Authorities

       20        Law.

       21                       THE PRESIDENT:  There are two

       22        home rule messages at the desk.

       23                       Read the last section, please.

       24                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

       25        This act shall take effect immediately.







                                                         139

        1                       THE PRESIDENT:  Call the roll.

        2                       (The Secretary called the

        3        roll.)

        4                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

        5                       THE PRESIDENT:   Senator

        6        Leichter.

        7                       SENATOR LEICHTER:  Madam

        8        President, we debated this bill for some time

        9        during the special session.  The only reason

       10        I'm going to vote against it is because of

       11        the manner in which the board of directors is

       12        chosen by this corporation, unlike the way

       13        the board of directors is chosen for the

       14        Nassau corporation, which there, as I

       15        recollect -- and I'm going on my

       16        recollection, but there, I believe, in the

       17        Nassau, it's -- the local authorities are the

       18        ones that appoint the directors.

       19                       That, as I recollect and

       20        unless the bill has been changed, I didn't

       21        want to start a debate on this, but as I

       22        recollect, here the Governor has the right to

       23        choose the board of directors and it just

       24        seems to me that that's something that ought

       25        to be done locally, it should be done by the







                                                         140

        1        county, and for that reason, I will vote in

        2        the negative on this bill, but I will not

        3        oppose the Nassau bill.

        4                       THE PRESIDENT:  Thank you,

        5        Senator Leichter.

        6                       The Secretary will announce

        7        the results.

        8                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 52, nays

        9        1, Senator Leichter recorded in the negative.

       10                       THE PRESIDENT:  The bill is

       11        passed.

       12                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

       13        Number 22, by the Senate Committee on Rules,

       14        Senate Print 1117, an act to amend the Public

       15        Authorities Law.

       16                       THE PRESIDENT:  Read the last

       17        section -- oh, there's a home rule message at

       18        the desk.

       19                       Read the last section, please.

       20                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

       21        This act shall take effect immediately.

       22                       THE PRESIDENT:  Call the roll.

       23                       (The Secretary called the

       24        roll.)

       25                       SENATOR HANNON:  To explain my







                                                         141

        1        vote.

        2                       THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

        3        Hannon.

        4                       SENATOR HANNON:  I think there

        5        are some details that I'm not so sure Senator

        6        Leichter is correct on, and I'll be giving

        7        him a memo on the bill later on, so he can be

        8        clear on that.  Thank you.

        9                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 53.

       10                       THE PRESIDENT:  The bill is

       11        passed.

       12                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

       13        Number 23, by the Senate Committee on Rules,

       14        Senate Print 1118, an act to amend the Public

       15        Authorities Law.

       16                       THE PRESIDENT:  Read the last

       17        section, please.

       18                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

       19        This act shall take effect immediately.

       20                       THE PRESIDENT:  Call the roll.

       21                       (The Secretary called the

       22        roll.)

       23                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 53.

       24                       THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

       25        passed.







                                                         142

        1                       Senator Holland.

        2                       SENATOR HOLLAND:   Can we

        3        return to the regular calendar and do the

        4        controversial, please?

        5                       THE PRESIDENT:  The Secretary

        6        will read.

        7                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

        8        Number 2, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print

        9        364A, an act to amend Chapter 452 of the Laws

       10        of 1993, amending the Executive Law.

       11                       SENATOR PATERSON:

       12        Explanation.

       13                       THE PRESIDENT:  An explanation

       14        is requested.

       15                       SENATOR STAFFORD:  Madam.

       16        President.

       17                       THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

       18        Stafford.

       19                       SENATOR STAFFORD:  Madam

       20        President, very often in the Secretary of

       21        State's work, operation, domain 

       22                       SENATOR PATERSON:

       23        Explanation satisfactory.

       24                       SENATOR STAFFORD:  Thank you.

       25                       THE PRESIDENT:  Read the last







                                                         143

        1        section, please.

        2                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        3        This act shall take effect immediately.

        4                       THE PRESIDENT:  Call the roll.

        5                       (The Secretary called the

        6        roll.)

        7                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 53.

        8                       THE PRESIDENT:  The bill is

        9        passed.

       10                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

       11        Number 5, by Senator Velella, Senate Print

       12        92, an act to amend the Penal Law, in

       13        relation to arson in the first degree.

       14                       SENATOR LEICHTER:  Explanation

       15                       THE PRESIDENT:  Yes, an

       16        explanation is requested, Senator Velella.

       17                       SENATOR HOLLAND:  One second,

       18        please.

       19                       THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

       20        Velella, an explanation is requested.

       21                       SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes, Madam

       22        President.  This bill would change the

       23        definition of "incendiary device" for the

       24        purposes of prosecuting arson in the first

       25        degree.







                                                         144

        1                       As a result of a recent court

        2        case, a car was loaded with gasoline and

        3        driven into a building and the court

        4        dismissed the prosecution for arson in the

        5        first degree on the basis that a car loaded

        6        with gasoline and ignited did not represent

        7        an incendiary device as defined under the

        8        law.  This bill would change that so that any

        9        type of flammable fluid that is ignited could

       10        be used for the purposes of prosecuting arson

       11        in the first degree.

       12                       THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

       13        Leichter?

       14                       SENATOR LEICHTER:  Yes, Madam

       15        President.  I remember this bill was before

       16        us last year and I voted for it.

       17                       I laid this bill aside and two

       18        other bills, both of which were reported out

       19        of the Rules Committee, really for only one

       20        reason, because I think we're getting in the

       21        very bad habit of calling committees off the

       22        floor.  Now, if we do it at the end of the

       23        session and there's an understandable rush, I

       24        think some of us can understand that,

       25        although even at that time it's a practice to







                                                         145

        1        be deplored.

        2                       But, at the beginning of the

        3        session, to call a committee such as the

        4        Codes Committee off the floor, I think was

        5        totally erroneous, bad procedure, and it

        6        really denies members of the committee a

        7        chance to review the bill in committee and it

        8        denies the members of the Senate to know that

        9        the bill has been adequately and fully

       10        considered in committee.

       11                       I think that's particularly

       12        true of penal bills.  They're complex bills,

       13        they're difficult bills.

       14                       And also, if I may say so, and

       15        I've been on the Codes Committee for many

       16        years under the chairmanship of Senator

       17        Volker, it's an excellent committee and

       18        there's really very good, thorough

       19        discussions of the bills, and there is very

       20        fair discussion.  Senator Volker gives

       21        everybody a chance to contribute.

       22                       When you have a committee

       23        called off the floor, you don't have that

       24        opportunity, and I think that it's a bad

       25        habit that we should make sure -- or it's a







                                                         146

        1        bad practice that we ought to make sure

        2        really doesn't become a habit; and if it

        3        does, I, for one, and I think there will be

        4        other members, that will just lay aside these

        5        bills and we're going to discuss them then,

        6        at some length, to make sure that all of the

        7        work that should have been done in committee

        8        and could not have been done in committee

        9        because it was called off the floor and you

       10        didn't have time to do it, is then done on

       11        the floor.  I don't think any of us want

       12        that.

       13                       So, I'm just pointing that

       14        out, that's why I laid these bills aside,

       15        Senator.  I'm not going to ask you any

       16        questions on it.  But, if this continues,

       17        certainly committees that I'm on, I feel I

       18        have the obligation, then, to see that we

       19        have a full discussion on the floor.  I would

       20        hope we could avoid that.  I hope we will not

       21        have committees called off the floor as

       22        occurred last week and that the committees

       23        can perform their functions, their

       24        responsibility to all the members of

       25        considering the bills.







                                                         147

        1                       SENATOR VELELLA:  Madam

        2        President, on the bill.

        3                       THE PRESIDENT:  Yes, Senator

        4        Velella.

        5                       SENATOR VELELLA:  Madam

        6        President, I think it's deplorable when we

        7        see members of this Senate stand up with

        8        technical objections to procedures and

        9        attempt to threaten that good, meaningful

       10        legislation will be stopped because they

       11        happen to be offended by the procedure.

       12                       Now, we know this is the

       13        beginning of the session and we see that we

       14        have a rather light calendar.  It would be

       15        more beneficial to the people of this state

       16        if we can move these bills out, get them

       17        started, get the Senate doing its business,

       18        rather than to meet here, look at each other

       19        and leave because there's nothing on the

       20        calendar.

       21                       I compliment Senator Volker

       22        for moving good bills that are basically non

       23        controversial.  As Senator Leichter has said,

       24        he has no objection to this bill, he objects

       25        to the procedure, because we're moving a







                                                         148

        1        little bit too fast.  Well, Senator, keep up

        2        with the pace.  You can keep up with us.  If

        3        you try hard, you'll follow our lead.   We

        4        want to get some work done, we want the

        5        Senate to hit the ground rolling.  Maybe the

        6        Assembly will come along; but certainly I

        7        have confidence that you'll be able to keep

        8        up with the rest of us.

        9                       THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

       10        Volker.

       11                       SENATOR VOLKER:  Madam

       12        President, if I can just point out, Senator

       13        Leichter, I tend to agree with you.  We do

       14        not intend to be calling committee meetings

       15        off the floor.  The only reason that it

       16        happened -- and by the way, every bill that

       17        was reported out were bills that passed this

       18        house last year and they already had been

       19        considered in our committee previous to this,

       20        in other words, during last year's session,

       21        some of which have been considered, by the

       22        way, for years, and years, and years.  You

       23        know we have some bills that aren't reported

       24        for many, many years.  But, I also wanted to

       25        say that the reason we did the committee







                                                         149

        1        meeting off the floor was because the leader

        2        did want to get some bills on the agenda to

        3        move.  As you know, we could not do them on

        4        Tuesday because on Tuesday we were going to

        5        do the Court of Appeals judgeship for Judge

        6        Wesley and it would have been physically

        7        impossible to have the meeting at our normal

        8        time at noon on Tuesday as we are going to

        9        have tomorrow, well, Tuesday being a

       10        Wednesday tomorrow.

       11                       But, we do not intend to have

       12        committee meetings called off the floor,

       13        unless there is some very, very unusual

       14        situation, and this was one of them.

       15                       There was one bill on the

       16        agenda, by the way, that was a new bill and

       17        when any kind of objection was raised to it,

       18        we just passed it aside.  So, I just want to

       19        tell you that.

       20                       So, we understand your

       21        questions, but I think this -- we had debated

       22        all this legislation previous to this,

       23        anyway.

       24                       SENATOR LEICHTER:  Madam

       25        President.







                                                         150

        1                       THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

        2        Leichter?

        3                       SENATOR LEICHTER:  I didn't

        4        want to prolong this, but I thought that

        5        Senator Velella's statement needed a little

        6        clarification because I didn't want the

        7        record 

        8                       SENATOR VELELLA:  Could you

        9        please repeat that?  I was distracted.

       10                       SENATOR LEICHTER:   Senator,

       11        you're usually distracted, so I'm glad that

       12        you're listening.

       13                       But let me just say, Senator,

       14        I wanted to correct the statement because as

       15        you know, you and I, we share a community, we

       16        work together very well and I don't want the

       17        word to go out from here that Senator Velella

       18        got up and said, "Procedures don't matter.

       19        Don't pay attention to technicalities.  Don't

       20        look at the bill, just let's get things

       21        passed," because I know that's not your view.

       22          Your view is that procedures do count,

       23        rules count.  It is important that we do

       24        things in an orderly fashion.  And I want the

       25        people of the community that you and I share,







                                                         151

        1        I want to assure them that your view is,

        2        because you've expressed it to me at other

        3        times, is that you do want to be careful

        4        before you pass legislation, that you don't

        5        want to rush it through; that what you pass

        6        here, you want to be able to go to people and

        7        say, "this has had careful, deliberate

        8        consideration."  And it's in that sense,

        9        Senator, that I urge that we don't call

       10        committees off the floor; and even there's

       11        bills as excellent as your bills, and I'm

       12        sure you must agree, you want it to go

       13        through the regular procedure.  And it's to

       14        protect you and me and every other member of

       15        this body that I urge that we follow the

       16        rules and we don't have committees called off

       17        the floor.

       18                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is

       19        there any other Senator wishing to speak on

       20        the bill?

       21                       Senator Velella.

       22                       SENATOR VELELLA:  I would just

       23        like to respond briefly to Senator Leichter.

       24                       Perhaps the pace is a little

       25        too fast, so I'll slow it down for you.  The







                                                         152

        1        point is, Senator, the time to object

        2        procedurally is when the meeting is called,

        3        when your ranking minority member is

        4        requested permission to consent to a meeting

        5        off the floor, which we do, which is a

        6        courtesy.

        7                       We ought not to be using the

        8        procedural steps to try and prevent or delay

        9        good legislation from going into force.  You

       10        are always the one who screams and yells

       11        about rushing to judgment, as you're trying

       12        to do here, about the case -- about the load

       13        that we have toward the end of session.

       14        We're trying to get things moving quicker

       15        here at a quicker pace.

       16                   This is hardly a controversial

       17        bill.  You certainly have said it's

       18        meritorious, it's a good bill, you voted for

       19        it in the past;  it never got passed on in

       20        the other house.  We want to get the work

       21        load moved out so we can devote more time to

       22        controversial matters, matters that you might

       23        want to contribute your experience and your

       24        expertise on in the course of debate.

       25                       However, trying to object just







                                                         153

        1        on technical reasons to a bill that's a good

        2        bill I think is counterproductive here.  The

        3        time to object to procedural events are when

        4        the committee meeting is held, when the

        5        ranking minority member, who you are part of

        6        and who is represented by -- represents you

        7        with the chairman gives his consent to call

        8        the meeting off the floor.  Those are the

        9        times, those are the in-house workings.

       10                       The ultimate goal here is to

       11        do the best for the people of the state of

       12        New York.  This is a good bill.  We ought not

       13        be having this political bickering on the

       14        floor at so early a stage.  We ought to get

       15        the bills out that are non-controversial,

       16        pass them; those that you agree with, fine;

       17        those that you don't agree with, debate

       18        against them.  But, let's not try to bog down

       19        the place and be counterproductive, that's

       20        all I'm trying to say to you.  And I think

       21        that is what is the essence of what you were

       22        saying, "I will hold these bills up and

       23        debate them all to death, unless we follow

       24        the procedures I think is right."

       25                       There is no negative procedure







                                                         154

        1        here, there is no violation of the rules, the

        2        rules were followed.  This is a procedure to

        3        expedite the matters, to get it before the

        4        Senate, to give it the opportunity to have a

        5        full debate.

        6                       You have the opportunity now

        7        to ask any question that you want.  You're

        8        familiar with the bill, you knew you voted

        9        against it last year, and you're just

       10        nitpicking now to try and make some kind of

       11        political point.  Let's try and put that

       12        aside and let's work on getting the good

       13        bills that are non-controversial moved out of

       14        this house and over to the Assembly so they

       15        can work on them.  They take a little longer

       16        to understand things than we do.  We can move

       17        things quickly.

       18                       Thank you.

       19                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       20        Secretary will read the last section.

       21                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

       22        This act shall take effect on the 30th day.

       23                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call

       24        the roll.

       25                       (The Secretary called the







                                                         155

        1        roll.)

        2                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

        3                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        4        bill is passed.

        5                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

        6        Number 8, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 185,

        7        an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

        8        sexual performance by a child under the age

        9        of 18 years.

       10                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       11        Secretary will read the last section.

       12                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

       13        This act shall take effect on the first day

       14        of November.

       15                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call

       16        the roll.

       17                       (The Secretary called the

       18        roll.)

       19                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

       20                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

       21        bill is passed.

       22                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

       23        Number 9, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 186,

       24        an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

       25        consecutive sentences and the calculation of







                                                         156

        1        sentences.

        2                       SENATOR PATERSON:

        3        Explanation.

        4                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        5        Senator Tully, an explanation of Calendar

        6        Number 9, Senate Print 186, has been asked

        7        for by the Acting Minority Leader, Senator

        8        Paterson.

        9                       Senator Paterson.

       10                       SENATOR PATERSON:   On second

       11        thought, to expedite the process 

       12                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       13        Secretary will read the last section.  Not

       14        that quick.

       15                       SENATOR PATERSON:  With the

       16        distinct advantage of hearing what Senator

       17        Velella suggested, I think this bill is fine.

       18          We can read the last section.

       19                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       20        Secretary will read the last section.

       21                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

       22        This act shall take effect on the first day

       23        of November.

       24                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:   Call

       25        the roll.







                                                         157

        1                       (The Secretary called the

        2        roll.)

        3                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

        4                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:   The

        5        bill is passed.

        6                       THE SECRETARY:   Calendar

        7        Number 10, by Senator Volker, Senate Print

        8        222, an act to amend the Penal Law and the

        9        Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to term

       10        of imprisonment for certain offenders.

       11                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       12        Senator Volker, an explanation has been asked

       13        for by two Senators, Senator Montgomery and

       14        also Senator Paterson.

       15                       SENATOR VOLKER:   Assuming my

       16        voice holds out; I have a little cold today.

       17        Apparently both my wife and Senator Leichter

       18        think I probably shouldn't have been here

       19        today; I think she was probably more right

       20        than you, Franz.

       21                       But, at any rate, this bill is

       22        a bill that passed previously, I think

       23        several times.  It's what I call -- and it's

       24        an in-the-middle bill between the proposal

       25        for second -- "two times and you're out."







                                                         158

        1        Some people term it a "three times and you're

        2        out" bill which says that if a person is

        3        convicted of a violent felony offense and has

        4        previously been convicted of two or more

        5        violent felony offenses, then that person

        6        would be subject to a minimum mandatory

        7        sentence of 25 years to life in prison.

        8                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        9        Senator Volker, excuse me just a minute.

       10                       SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes.

       11                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  I see

       12        a lot of conversations and I hear a lot of

       13        noise.  I'm having an extremely difficult

       14        time hearing you.  We might just as well

       15        start the year out in the right way.  If the

       16        members would take their conversations out of

       17        the chamber if you're going to have them.

       18                       Thank you, Senator Volker, for

       19        the interruption.

       20                       SENATOR VOLKER:  Senator, this

       21        is a bill, as I said, that provides that if a

       22        person is convicted of a violent felony

       23        offense for, in effect, a third time, that

       24        person is then subject to 25 years to life,

       25        and there are limitations on plea bargaining







                                                         159

        1        also in these violent felony offenses.

        2                       This is what I consider to be

        3        a middle ground in the area of violent felony

        4        offenses as I know the Governor, I believe,

        5        and some other people have come up with

        6        legislation that would provide for what they

        7        call two times and you're out, as far as

        8        violent felony offenses are concerned.

        9                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       10        Senator Paterson?

       11                       SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

       12        President, with sensitivity to Senator

       13        Volker's capacity to answer the questions

       14        today, I think he qualifies for the

       15        consolidated question alternative, so I'm

       16        going to take the three questions I would

       17        have had and try to put them together in a

       18        way that maybe he can just answer this at one

       19        point.

       20                       Senator Volker, if you would

       21        yield for a question.

       22                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       23        Senator Volker, do you yield to Senator

       24        Paterson?

       25                       SENATOR VOLKER:  Certainly.







                                                         160

        1                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        2        Senator yields.

        3                       SENATOR PATERSON:   I'm

        4        concerned about the effect on the impact of

        5        crime that this legislation would provide in

        6        the short term, in the long term, and also

        7        its cost to the taxpayers.

        8                       I turn your attention to the

        9        sentencing project from 1994 where it

       10        indicates that 66 percent of crimes are

       11        committed by people under 30 and that the

       12        largest group of individuals who commit

       13        crimes are males age 15 to 24; and so,

       14        therefore, it would suggest a couple of

       15        conclusions that this -- the passage of this

       16        bill would produce, number one, that already

       17        we passed legislation in 1995 which would

       18        provide for 85 percent of the sentences that

       19        have been served by second and persistently

       20        violent offenders so that they would be

       21        serving 85 percent of their sentence term in

       22        the first place.

       23                       Secondly, we would have a

       24        situation now whereby the time -- the

       25        additional time that these individuals are







                                                         161

        1        serving are the times that just,

        2        demographically, people of this age are not

        3        committing crimes anyway, even people who've

        4        already been released from prison; that what

        5        we would be, in a sense, doing is setting up

        6        a geriatric ward in our correctional

        7        facilities with people who are low risk to

        8        society and not really addressing the crime

        9        issue by passing this bill as much as we

       10        would be housing inmates and spending up

       11        valuable taxpayer dollars with which we could

       12        fight crime, just by keeping people for the

       13        crimes they already committed.

       14                       Finally, what I would like you

       15        to respond to is just the cost effect of

       16        passing this legislation when, as I said

       17        before, we're just housing individuals for a

       18        long period of time.

       19                       SENATOR VOLKER:  Senator,

       20        first of all, let me just say that I think

       21        the thing that you have to put in mind is 

       22        and when you're talking about long-term

       23        effects, you're absolutely correct, it's

       24        really long term, because if we didn't pass

       25        this legislation, someone who previously was







                                                         162

        1        convicted of two serious, violent felony

        2        offenses, I would assume had already spent at

        3        least some time in prison and would be

        4        subject to a long prison term, even though

        5        it's now indeterminate anyway.

        6                       And the thing about it, I

        7        think, is that what we're really talking

        8        about is a society, by the way, that has

        9        been, to a certain extent, ignoring some of

       10        these violent felony offenses.  We have not

       11        been sending people away, in many cases, for

       12        two violent felony offenses.  In fact, that's

       13        part of the problem.  In some cases, we

       14        haven't been sending them away for violent

       15        felony offenses for the third or fourth or

       16        fifth time and sixth time.

       17                       One of things that's

       18        interesting when we talk about the drugs

       19        laws, one of the things we forget is in New

       20        York City, you have to be arrested about

       21        fifteen times before anybody pays a lot of

       22        attention to you in many cases.  Some of the

       23        people who went to prison under the

       24        Rockefeller drug laws were arrested 100 times

       25        for various crimes, some of them for







                                                         163

        1        violence, by the way; and I said one time to

        2        somebody, why would anybody possibly plead to

        3        a Rockefeller drug offense?  Think about it.

        4        There is only one real reason why they would

        5        do it and that is because they face something

        6        much more severe, a violent felony offense

        7        they face.

        8                       Now, what we're saying here

        9        is, we're taking people who have previously

       10        been convicted of violent felony offenses,

       11        and these are pretty serious convictions, and

       12        we're saying if you commit another such

       13        offense, you are going to be subject to 25

       14        years to life, which is one of the most 

       15        obviously one of the most serious penalties

       16        we can give.

       17                       Now, the impact, obviously, is

       18        not going to be felt immediately because

       19        these people would have presumably gone to

       20        jail for some period of time anyway.  Our

       21        hope is that by these severe penalties, we

       22        will continue to develop a rational criminal

       23        justice process that brings the crime rate

       24        down because one thing I think just about

       25        everyone is convinced about in the criminal







                                                         164

        1        justice system, it just depends on whether

        2        you want to admit how much it is, the fact

        3        that we are putting people in jail for long

        4        periods of time is clearly and unequivocally

        5        having an impact on the crime rate.  This

        6        business of somebody saying again now, all of

        7        a sudden, that the age of criminals today has

        8        suddenly -- their perception of the age of

        9        criminals has now said, "Well, that's why the

       10        crime rate is coming down," is baloney

       11        because just two years ago when the crime

       12        rate was still going up, they were saying the

       13        reverse.

       14                       So my answer, I guess, to you

       15        is this:  In the short term, the impact is

       16        comparatively limited because these people

       17        presumably would have gone to jail anyway.

       18        But we hope that, particularly for the long

       19        term, that what this will do is have a major

       20        impact on the amount of violent felons who

       21        are able to walk on our streets, and many of

       22        us feel that this is one of the ways that we

       23        can deal with some of the most predatory

       24        criminals in our system.

       25                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:







                                                         165

        1        Senator Paterson?

        2                       SENATOR PATERSON:   Mr.

        3        President, I want to thank Senator Volker.

        4                       On the bill, Mr. President.

        5                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        6        Senator Paterson, on the bill.

        7                       SENATOR PATERSON:   We are all

        8        opposed to these persistent violent felony

        9        offenses and we all want to see justice meted

       10        out in these particular cases.

       11                       We just want to make sure that

       12        the awareness of time is not impinging upon

       13        the concept of justice, that we are not

       14        reacting to what is always popular, which is

       15        to tell the public that we need to increase

       16        sentences for persistent violent felony

       17        offenders, when, in fact, many of these

       18        offenders may have actually aged out.

       19                       If Senator Volker says that we

       20        have not gone far enough, I have to respect

       21        his judgment and also his expertise in this

       22        particular area.

       23                       However, what is of great

       24        caution to all of us in this chamber is the

       25        fact that we do have a significant crime







                                                         166

        1        problem, even if it is decreasing, and that

        2        we need to be spending resources in the way

        3        that will best impact on the crime situation.

        4                       We feel that in these

        5        particular situations, that we are

        6        over-invested in people who've been in prison

        7        often into their 40s and 50s and 60s and

        8        perhaps that the resources might be more

        9        effective if they were directed in another

       10        area.

       11                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       12        Senator Montgomery, did you have a question

       13        or a comment?

       14                       SENATOR MONTGOMERY:   Yes, Mr.

       15        President.

       16                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:   Chair

       17        recognizes Senator Montgomery.

       18                       SENATOR MONTGOMERY:   I don't

       19        have a question for my colleague, but I just

       20        want to comment briefly on this bill.

       21                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       22        Senator Montgomery, on the bill.

       23                       SENATOR MONTGOMERY:   I know

       24        there is similar legislation that has been

       25        passed and implemented in some other states,







                                                         167

        1        namely California has, I believe, what is a

        2        similar policy at this point in time, and

        3        they have found that it is not as successful

        4        in terms of addressing the issue of crime as

        5        they had anticipated, number one.

        6                       And number two, it seems to be

        7        a net that catches specifically African

        8        Americans more than any other group, and it

        9        also somehow pulls in people who have not, in

       10        fact, committed the kind of felony crimes.  I

       11        don't know if your bill will be -- if you've

       12        corrected that in this legislation; it seems

       13        that you have.  But the California bill is a

       14        problem in that respect.

       15                       I cannot vote for this

       16        legislation, even though it is intended to

       17        address the issue of predicate felons,

       18        because one of the most successful programs

       19        that I'm aware of is -- has a piece in my

       20        district which is a program that houses and

       21        works with former inmates and most of them

       22        have been incarcerated for crimes related to

       23        their drug use or to drugs in general, they

       24        are back out and they are being

       25        rehabilitated, some of them are being







                                                         168

        1        habilitated, and it is a program with a very

        2        high rate of success in terms of reducing

        3        recidivism, as well as producing quality

        4        citizens back into society.

        5                       And since many of the people

        6        in the state prison system in New York are

        7        going to come back to Brooklyn and Manhattan

        8        and the Bronx, I have a particular interest

        9        in those programs that work.  And those are

       10        not the programs that we are now increasing

       11        funding for in the state budget.  We are, in

       12        fact, cutting all of those programs, programs

       13        for alternatives to incarceration, we don't

       14        have money in the budget for community

       15        mediation centers, we're not looking at

       16        building -- building recreational centers in

       17        communities like mine for young people.

       18        There is no investment in keeping people from

       19        becoming violent felons to begin with.

       20                       So I cannot, in all good

       21        conscience, support continuing to invest on

       22        the back end, which is more expensive and

       23        which waits until people become essentially

       24        destructive to themselves and society before

       25        we're willing to invest anything.   So I'm







                                                         169

        1        going to vote no on this legislation, Mr.

        2        President.

        3                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Chair

        4        recognizes Senator Waldon.

        5                       SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you

        6        very much, Mr. President.  I would like to

        7        ask Senator Volker a question or two, if he

        8        would yield; but before that, I would like to

        9        share a thought with him before I ask the

       10        question.  May I do that, Mr. President?

       11                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       12        Absolutely.  The floor is yours, Senator

       13        Waldon.

       14                       SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you,

       15        Mr. President.

       16                       Senator Volker, a couple of

       17        years ago, we went to one of the prisons

       18        downstate to look at the geriatric prisoners

       19        there, some colleagues and I, I don't

       20        remember if you were there, I think not, but

       21        I saw people who were up in age beyond the

       22        number that I would have imagined before

       23        entering the facility, in their 80s, many of

       24        them frail and elderly.

       25                       I'm one of the founders of the







                                                         170

        1        Jamaica Service Program for Older Adults in

        2        Queens which services thousands and thousands

        3        of senior citizens and so I've had a chance

        4        over the last 20 years or so to see what it

        5        is to be in a geriatric setting -- I'm

        6        rapidly approaching it myself -- but I saw

        7        people in a prison setting with their legs

        8        amputated, having been amputated in prison.

        9        I saw people who had to travel with the stand

       10        holding the drip solution, whatever it was

       11        that they were being fed intravenously.  I

       12        saw people who had to have a guard and/or a

       13        nurse get them up, clean them up, escort them

       14        around during their day in the prison, and

       15        then put them to bed at night.

       16                       And so I ask in this situation

       17        with this bill that we may pass and which may

       18        become law, has anyone considered the true

       19        fiscal impact in terms of the medical costs

       20        for these people who will obviously age out

       21        and die in prison?

       22                       SENATOR VOLKER:   Senator,

       23        you're making an assumption that I think I

       24        have a difficulty in making.  By the way, we

       25        passed legislation here some years ago called







                                                         171

        1        medical parole; it's been pointed out, we

        2        haven't used it very much.

        3                       There are some very good

        4        reasons why we haven't used it very much.

        5        For one thing, we're having difficulty with

        6        some of our inmates who don't want to apply

        7        for it.  We don't have a lot of people who

        8        are very old, but we have some.  Some of

        9        those people do not want to apply for medical

       10        parole because the only life that they've

       11        really known is the prison life.   But you

       12        should understand that most of these people

       13        have very, very severe records.

       14                       There is no -- by the way, in

       15        thinking about it, if you get a person here

       16        who is a persistent violent felon that is

       17        arrested and convicted today, they presumably

       18        would be in their 30s because most of the

       19        people who are convicted as violent felony

       20        offenders, even if they've already been in

       21        jail for a while, are still in their late 20s

       22        and 30s because of the way the system works.

       23        So, they're sentenced to 25 years to life;

       24        admittedly, they will be in their 50s.   I

       25        don't exactly think that's quite geriatric.







                                                         172

        1                       You have to look at the

        2        system, Senator, it seems to me, for where it

        3        is.  And I agree with you that I think we

        4        have to be careful.  These are not ordinary

        5        offenders, these are violent felony

        6        offenders.  These are people that have

        7        committed very serious crimes, not only in

        8        the past, but now, as to why they are going

        9        to be sentenced to these severe charges.

       10                       And Senator, you and I know

       11        that we're talking about the mandatory

       12        minimum sentences.  To get there, they have

       13        to get by a DA who thinks it's severe enough

       14        to charge them with these kind of sentences.

       15        Most DAs, unless they think it's a pretty

       16        serious charge, are not going to be bothered

       17        with it.

       18                       So, I think the thing is that

       19        it's not as if the system is written in stone

       20        because we pass legislation that says

       21        somebody is charged, we're saying that once

       22        they're convicted.  But history shows that

       23        the DA, unless it's a pretty severe penalty

       24        involvement or a person that they are very

       25        worried about, are not likely to move ahead







                                                         173

        1        and prosecute these cases, anyway, whether

        2        they're black or white or whoever they are,

        3        whether its upstate or downstate or wherever

        4        it is.

        5                       In fact, they are much more

        6        likely to be prosecuted in upstate New York,

        7        in all honesty, than they are in downstate

        8        New York because of the fact that the

        9        prosecutors in upstate New York, tend to be

       10         -- admittedly, they don't have quite as much

       11        to prosecute, but they tend to prosecute

       12        people on a much more -- on a much different

       13        basis.

       14                       So, I guess my answer is I

       15        really don't see where this is going to

       16        likely create an enormous amount more

       17        geriatric inmates unless, of course, they are

       18        inmates that, as part of their persistent

       19        violent felony offender, kill somebody, then

       20        that's a different story.

       21                       And I would venture to say

       22        that most of the people you saw -- because

       23        the people I know of who are in those

       24        positions, probably committed some sort of

       25        form of homicide, most likely, because they







                                                         174

        1        are most of the people that are still around

        2        in prison at the advanced ages.

        3                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        4        Senator Waldon?

        5                       SENATOR WALDON:   Mr.

        6        President, I would like to ask the gentleman

        7        to yield again, because obviously 

        8                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        9        Senator Volker, do you continue to yield?

       10                       SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes.

       11                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

       12        Senator continues to yield.

       13                       SENATOR WALDON:   I apologize,

       14        Senator Volker.  I was not clear in my

       15        question because had I been clear, I would

       16        have elicited an answer somewhat different

       17        from the one you gave me.  I respect your

       18        answer.

       19                       I was trying to find out, has

       20        anyone done a cost analysis in regard to the

       21        explosion of prisoners which will occur,

       22        which would, I'm sure -- and you're aware of

       23        what happened in California, which I'm sure

       24        would replicate somewhat what has happened in

       25        Texas, and in that regard, on the back end,







                                                         175

        1        there would be a big change in terms of the

        2        medical costs.

        3                       SENATOR VOLKER:   The studies

        4        that have been done, by the way, and we've

        5        debated this, Senator, a number of times and

        6        ironically there probably won't be a really

        7        good study done until we pass this and, you

        8        know, that's the way life is, I guess.  But

        9        remember that the system as it is would still

       10        be sending these people to jail for a

       11        considerable period of time, we assume that

       12        they would be.  Although, because we're

       13        making it mandatory, we know and they know 

       14        and they will know, by the way, that if they

       15        get themselves involved in another violent

       16        felony offense, they will know there's no

       17        question that they're going to jail, or at

       18        least assuming all things being equal, for 25

       19        years to life.  And that's one of the

       20        arguments we're making as to why inmates

       21        today and why criminals today are looking at

       22        the system differently.

       23                       The answer is that the studies

       24        that have been done so far indicate that for

       25        a number of years, there will not be any







                                                         176

        1        enormous change; but down the line, it's

        2        true, assuming that the rate of violence in

        3        our state doesn't decline, and although right

        4        now it's declining, but assuming that that

        5        were not to continue, somewhere down the

        6        line, we would have a bubble, there's no

        7        question about it.  It would be somewhere in

        8        the area of about 14 years to 25, but in the

        9        immediate future, it should not have any

       10        major impact.

       11                       But you are right, somewhere

       12        down the line, this could have a rather

       13        decided impact.  Of course, in the meantime,

       14        we're going to be looking at what's happening

       15        with the whole criminal justice system and

       16        we'll have time to decide whether we need

       17        more prisons at that point.

       18                       SENATOR WALDON:  Mr.

       19        President, if I may continue, would the

       20        gentleman continue to yield?

       21                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       22        Senator Volker, do you continue to yield?

       23                       SENATOR VOLKER:  Sure.

       24                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       25        Senator continues to yield.







                                                         177

        1                       SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you

        2        very much, Mr. President.  Thank you, Senator

        3        Volker.

        4                       Senator, I realize from the

        5        Governor's budget address and from my review

        6        of his budget proposals that last year he

        7        said, let's build 8,800 prison cells, at the

        8        cost of 486 million, and I found that

        9        something that I thought not wise.

       10                       This budget has said let's

       11        build 7,700, or thereabouts, prison cells but

       12        at a cost of $660-plus million.   The reason

       13        I raise that now in the context of what we're

       14        talking about is because that cost down the

       15        road will be really $1.8 billion with the

       16        mortgage, at least as I understand what

       17        happens with these things.

       18                       And correct me if I'm wrong

       19        but, too, when you couple that cost -- and

       20        I'm told that the reason for that cost is

       21        that these prison cells will be different

       22        than what we've done in New York State

       23        before, we're going to build the

       24        state-of-the-art prison cells, perhaps

       25        similar to what our former leader, Ralph







                                                         178

        1        Marino, and I saw when we went with Mel

        2        Miller to California, Contra Costa and other

        3        places, to view prison cells on behalf of

        4        Governor Cuomo.

        5                       But my concern is the 660-plus

        6        million, along with the cost of these people

        7        who will obviously become, in my opinion,

        8        obviously become geriatric patients who will

        9        require massive medical costs.  Is that a

       10        burden that we as a state should look towards

       11        without absolute, impeccable, line-by-line,

       12        itemized analysis to know where we're going?

       13        Do we know where we're going with this move?

       14                       SENATOR VOLKER:  I think we

       15        know with about as much certainty, frankly,

       16        as we can possibly have, although I would be

       17        the first to admit to you that I think we

       18        probably do need another study of the prison

       19        situation.  But, keep in mind, if you had

       20        started a study two years ago before the

       21        tremendous drop in the crime rate, you would

       22        have had an entirely different -- in fact,

       23        that's one of the things, when we passed the

       24        legislation here, this is two years ago, I

       25        believe, the historic "Truth in Sentencing"







                                                         179

        1        legislation, the situation then actually was

        2        dramatically different.  Since then, there's

        3        been a dramatic decline in the violent crime

        4        rate in this state and particularly in your

        5        city, in the city of New York, and everyone

        6        in the world has taken credit for it, which I

        7        understand, that's fine.

        8                       I think the answer is we know

        9        at this time, given the way the system has

       10        developed, that is the prison system, that we

       11        need new cells if we are going to continue to

       12        embark on making sure that violent felons are

       13        incarcerated for long periods of time.

       14                       And you are right there.  The

       15        geriatric side of the situation, I think we

       16        should look at it to a greater extent, but it

       17        seems to me that we don't have as many

       18        geriatric prisoners today as we did years

       19        ago, and I don't believe we do, and it's one

       20        of the reasons we did medical parole and some

       21        other things to give us the ability, if we

       22        have to, to get these people out if they are

       23        too elderly, and so forth, and not be a

       24        danger to society.   I think we have some

       25        relief valves there, and I think we should







                                                         180

        1        continue to do that just in case.

        2                       But I think, Senator, that

        3        right now the Governor believes, I believe,

        4        and I think many of us believe that if we are

        5        to continue to maintain our movement toward

        6        curtailing the crime rate and making sure

        7        that violent felons are incarcerated for

        8        extensive periods of times, then we need to

        9        build additional prisons and that we need to

       10        maintain the momentum that we have already

       11        started.

       12                       So what this legislation,

       13        however, does is once again, to just back up

       14        what we've already done and deal with people

       15        who are violent felony offenders, not

       16        ordinary offenders, these are violent felony

       17        offenders, and put them away in a certain and

       18        discernible way for a long period of time.

       19                       SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you

       20        very much, Senator Volker.

       21                       If I may, Mr. President.

       22                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       23        Senator Waldon, on the bill.

       24                       SENATOR WALDON:  One, I thank

       25        you, Senator Volker, for your patience in







                                                         181

        1        walking me through this, I appreciate it very

        2        much.

        3                       I have some concerns, though,

        4        which will force me not to be able to support

        5        you on this issue.

        6                       As of the moment, we are able

        7        to put away violent felony offenders for a

        8        long time without in any way invading the

        9        discretion of the judges in their courts.

       10        Historically, I think that's the right way to

       11        go.  On a personal basis, in terms of my

       12        philosophy, I know absolutely we should not

       13        interfere with judicial discretion as much as

       14        we do in this state, and I find that, for me,

       15        something unacceptable.

       16                       I absolutely support putting

       17        violent felony offenders away.   It has

       18        worked in this state, it has worked in South

       19        Carolina which first gave the idea that,

       20        Waldon, you're making a mistake.  You need to

       21        see what works and allow that to happen here.

       22           Some of us get caught up, in the minority

       23        community, with a very defensive posture in

       24        regard to police tactics and incarceration

       25        tactics, but it is the minority community







                                                         182

        1        which is under siege by many of these people

        2        who are acting as predators, and this works.

        3                       My feeling, though, is that

        4        how much punishment is truly adequate

        5        punishment.   I think this is too

        6        far-reaching.

        7                       Also, if you recall, last year

        8        I spoke of the field of dreams.  I said then

        9        that if we build them, they will come and my

       10        fear is that this is a preemptive strike in

       11        ensuring that the line of marching persons to

       12        fill these prisons and to justify their

       13        construction will happen with this bill.

       14                       But more so on a moral basis

       15        than my monetary concern, I feel that we are

       16        interfering with judicial discretion far too

       17        much and, therefore, for all of that -- I

       18        mean, for all of those other reasons I've

       19        said, but most importantly for that, I cannot

       20        support you on this issue, Senator Volker.

       21        Thank you very much.

       22                       Thank you, Mr. President.

       23                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is

       24        there any other Senator wishing to speak on

       25        the bill?







                                                         183

        1                       (There was no response.)

        2                       Hearing none, the Secretary

        3        will read the last section.

        4                       THE SECRETARY:  Section 5.

        5        This act shall take effect immediately.

        6                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        7        Secretary will call the roll.

        8                       (The Secretary called the

        9        roll.)

       10                       Announce the results when

       11        tabulated.

       12                       THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded

       13        in the negative on Calendar Number 10 are

       14        Senators Connor, Leichter, Montgomery,

       15        Paterson, Sampson, Smith and Waldon.  Ayes

       16        49, nays 7.

       17                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

       18        bill is passed.

       19                       Senator Holland, that

       20        completes the controversial calendar.

       21                       SENATOR HOLLAND:   Mr.

       22        President, can we stand at ease while we

       23        await a message from the Assembly, please?

       24                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:   The

       25        Senate will stand at ease awaiting a message







                                                         184

        1        from the Assembly.

        2                       (Whereupon, from 4:03 p.m. to

        3        4:50 p.m., the Senate stood at ease.)

        4                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        5        Senate will come to order.  Ask the members

        6        to find their chairs.

        7                       SENATOR SKELOS:  At this time,

        8        could we return to messages from the

        9        Assembly.

       10                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  We'll

       11        return to the order of messages from the

       12        Assembly.  The Chair hands down a message

       13        from the Assembly.

       14                       Ask the Secretary to read.

       15                       THE SECRETARY:  On motion of

       16        Senator Bruno, the rules were suspended and

       17        said bill ordered to third reading:  Assembly

       18        Print 1817, by the Assembly Committee on

       19        Rules, an act to amend the Legislative Law,

       20        in relation to allowances for members of the

       21        Assembly.

       22                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       23        Without objection, the bill is ordered

       24        directly to third reading.

       25                       The Secretary will read the







                                                         185

        1        last section.

        2                       THE SECRETARY:  Calendar

        3        Number 24, by the Assembly Committee on

        4        Rules, Assembly Print 1817, an act to amend

        5        the Legislative Law, in relation to

        6        allowances for members of the Assembly.

        7                       Section 2.  This act shall

        8        take effect immediately.

        9                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

       10        Secretary will call the roll.

       11                       (The Secretary called the

       12        roll.)

       13                       THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56.

       14                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

       15        bill is passed.

       16                       SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr.

       17        President, is there any housekeeping at the

       18        desk?

       19                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

       20        Senator Skelos.

       21                       SENATOR SKELOS:  Is there any

       22        housekeeping at the desk?

       23                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There

       24        is none at the desk, Senator Skelos.

       25                       SENATOR SKELOS:  There being







                                                         186

        1        no further business, I move we adjourn until

        2        Wednesday, January 22nd, at 3:00 p.m. sharp.

        3                       ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:

        4        Without objection, the Senate stands

        5        adjourned until tomorrow, January 22nd, at

        6        3:00 p.m.

        7                       (Whereupon, at 4:53 p.m., the

        8        Senate adjourned.)

        9

       10

       11

       12

       13

       14

       15

       16

       17

       18

       19