Regular Session - February 26, 1997
1064
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9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 February 26, 1997
11 11:04 a.m.
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14 REGULAR SESSION
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18 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President
19 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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1065
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
3 come to order. Would everyone please rise and
4 join me in the Pledge of Allegiance.
5 (The assemblage repeated the
6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
7 The invocation today will be
8 given by Reverend Finley Schaef. He is the
9 Pastor of the Park Slop United Methodist Church
10 in Brooklyn. Reverend Schaef.
11 REVEREND FINLEY SCHAEF: Thank
12 you. The ethical and moral part of Christianity
13 and Judaism can be found in the few sentences in
14 the book of Luke, the 4th Chapter, where Jesus
15 said, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me and has
16 anointed me. I am sent to bring good news to
17 the poor, to set at liberty the oppressed, to
18 release the prisoners and to proclaim the
19 acceptable year of the Lord.
20 He spoke these words in the
21 Synagogue in his home town of Nazareth, and he
22 was quoting the Hebrew Prophet Isaiah. So it is
23 the vision of both Judaism and Christianity.
24 Let us pray.
25 We thank You, dear God, that we
1066
1 are brought together, that we have
2 responsibilities for the welfare of all. We
3 pray that we may have the wisdom to take these
4 words of Jesus and Isaiah, translate them into a
5 compassionate politics, so that we may bring
6 good news to the poor, to those on welfare; to
7 set at liberty the oppressed and to release
8 prisoners rather than to build more prisons, and
9 to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord
10 which is to re-distribute wealth. We ask in the
11 name of both Jesus and Isaiah. Amen.
12 THE PRESIDENT: Amen.
13 The reading of the Journal,
14 please.
15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
16 Tuesday, February 25th. The Senate met pursuant
17 to adjournment. The Journal of Monday, February
18 24th, was read and approved. On motion, Senate
19 adjourned.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Without
21 objection, the Journal stands approved as read.
22 Presentation of petitions.
23 Messages from the Assembly.
24 Messages from the Governor.
25 Reports of standing committees.
1067
1 The Secretary will read.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi,
3 from the Committee on Corporations, Authorities
4 and Commissions, reports the following bills:
5 Senate Print 476, by Senator
6 Skelos, an act to amend the General Business
7 Corporation Law;
8 785, by Senator Cook, an act to
9 amend the New York State Urban Development
10 Corporation Act and the Omnibus Economic
11 Development Act of 1987;
12 Senate Print 786, by Senator
13 Cook, an act to amend the Facilities Development
14 Corporation Act;
15 Senate Print 2592, by Senator
16 Marchi, an act to amend the Public Authorities
17 Law, the Tax Law, the New York State Financial
18 Emergency Act for the city of New York and the
19 Administrative Code of the city of New York.
20 All bills ordered direct for
21 third reading.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
23 objection, all bills ordered directly to third
24 reading.
25 Reports of select committees.
1068
1 Communications and reports from
2 state officers.
3 Motions and resolutions.
4 Senator Marcellino.
5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Mr.
6 President. I move that the following bills be
7 discharged from their respective committees and
8 be recommitted with instructions to strike the
9 enacting clause: Specifically on behalf of
10 Senator Johnson, Senate Number 1480.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: So
12 ordered.
13 Senator Skelos, we have one
14 substitution we'd like to take up at this time.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Make the
16 substitution.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
18 will read the substitution.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann
20 moves to discharge from the Committee on
21 Education Assembly Bill Number 2462 and
22 substitute it for the identical Third Reading
23 Calendar 207.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
25 Substitution is ordered.
1069
1 Senator Skelos, that brings us to
2 the calendar.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
4 at this time may we please take up Senate 2592,
5 Calendar 226, which has been reported from the
6 Corporations Committee.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
8 will read.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 226, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 2592, an
11 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, the Tax
12 Law, the New York State Financial Emergency Act
13 for the city of New York and the Administrative
14 Code of the city of New York.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
16 a home rule message at the desk. Secretary will
17 read the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 10. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
25 is passed.
1070
1 Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
3 at this time if we could have a reading of the
4 non-controversial calendar.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
6 will read the non-controversial calendar.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 1, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 68, an act to
9 amend the Executive Law and the Estates, Powers
10 and Trusts Law.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: Will you lay that
12 aside for the day at the request of the sponsor.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
14 bill aside for the day.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 51, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 126, an
17 act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to
18 prohibiting abandonment.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
20 will read the last section.
21 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
23 bill aside.
24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
25 77, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 506, an act
1071
1 to amend the Education Law, in relation to
2 establishing a Staten Island borough.
3 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Lay aside.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
5 bill aside.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 100, by Senator Present, Senate Print 539, an
8 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in
9 relation to eligibility for youthful offender
10 status.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
12 will read the last section.
13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
14 act shall take effect on the first day of
15 November.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll. )
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
21 is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 157, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 916, an act
24 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
25 relation to establishing an advisory committee
1072
1 on truck weights.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
3 will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll. )
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 158, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 1387, an
14 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
15 relation to partitions and shields in taxicabs.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
17 will read the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
19 act shall take effect on the same date as
20 Chapter 550.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll. )
24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
1073
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 162, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 1388,
4 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
5 Law, in relation to exemptions for hazardous
6 packaging.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
8 will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
10 act shall take effect on the 120th day.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll. )
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 166, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 463, an act
19 to amend the Education Law, in relation to
20 expanding student aid programs for Vietnam and
21 Persian Gulf veterans.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
23 will read the last section.
24 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
25 act shall take effect on the 120th day.
1074
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
6 is passed.
7 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr.
8 President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Stachowski, why do you rise?
11 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Is Calendar
12 158 still in the house?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 158 still
14 in the house? Yes, it is, Senator.
15 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Would you -
16 how do you do it? Motion to reconsider the
17 vote.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: A motion
19 to reconsider the vote by which Calendar Number
20 158, Senate Print 1997, I believe -- excuse me,
21 1387 passed the house. Secretary will call the
22 roll on -- or, excuse me, read the title.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
24 158, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 1387, an
25 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.
1075
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll on reconsideration.
3 (The Secretary called the roll on
4 reconsideration. )
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
6 bill aside.
7 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
9 will continue to read the non-controversial
10 calendar.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 168, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 546, an act
13 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in
14 relation to producer referendum under the
15 Rogers-Allen law.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
17 will read the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll. )
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
25 is passed.
1076
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 169, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 719, an act
3 to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in
4 relation to examination of horses for equine
5 infectious anemia.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
7 will read the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll. )
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
15 is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 173, by Senator Larkin.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Lay aside.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
20 bill aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 207, substituted earlier today, by member of the
23 Assembly Magee, Assembly Print 2462.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
25 bill aside.
1077
1 Senator Skelos, that completes
2 the reading of the non-controversial calendar.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: If we could take
4 up the controversial calendar.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
6 will read the controversial calendar beginning
7 with Calendar Number 51, Senate Print 126, by
8 Senator Stafford.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 51, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 126, an
11 act to amend the Highway Law.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay aside
13 temporarily.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
15 bill aside temporarily.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 77, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 506, an act
18 to amend the Education Law, in relation to
19 establishment of a Staten Island Borough School
20 District.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Stavisky.
23 SENATOR STAVISKY: May we have an
24 explanation of the bill?
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
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1 Marchi, an explanation of Calendar Number 77,
2 Senate Print 506, has been requested by Senator
3 Stavisky.
4 SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President,
5 this is -- this bill is virtually identical with
6 one that we passed last year.
7 SENATOR GOLD: A clone?
8 SENATOR MARCHI: Pardon?
9 SENATOR GOLD: Is it a clone?
10 SENATOR MARCHI: It's a clone,
11 despite my protestations.
12 And this would establish a quasi
13 independent board in the county of Richmond.
14 The county of Richmond is totally -- the school
15 district is co-terminous with the county. All
16 of Staten Island is District 31. The school
17 population is something between 30- and 40,000,
18 and it is not that dissimilar from virtually any
19 other district throughout the state in terms of
20 size, and perhaps it's a little larger than
21 many.
22 We have had fairly good even ten
23 ored performance in Staten Island of this board
24 and so it is only natural, I think, that they -
25 they are looking forward to continuing that
1079
1 system, not with any disparagement for what's
2 going on in the rest of the city.
3 The chancellor is making and
4 exercising a Herculean effort to address some
5 very serious problems, and he certainly has our
6 full support and good will on that.
7 We are singularly blessed, I
8 think, in the county of Richmond in the fact
9 that even though it might have been a little
10 more profitable if we had split up into two
11 districts, the feeling there was to keep it
12 under one district. It provides among other -
13 this board would elect its membership in the
14 November election, and it would do it on the
15 basis -- my plan had been to have it on a
16 cumulative vote basis, but that is not possible
17 because of the limitations that our present
18 machines have. As a matter of fact, I had
19 correspondence with Lani Guinier on that very
20 subject, because that is -- that is the
21 objective that we were looking for, but it is
22 not available to us by reason of the limitation
23 on the machines.
24 The superintendent of that
25 district would come by criteria developed by the
1080
1 Commissioner of Education of this state, and he
2 would be elected by the board, but he would have
3 to have the approval and consent of the -- of
4 the Commissioner of Education of the state of
5 New York; and also those who exercise
6 supervisory capacity would have that same
7 limitation affecting it.
8 The four-year -- we have
9 four-year terms for the board members. As I
10 say, we have not had the usual run of problems
11 that -- that have beset other communities, and
12 the operation of a board that would be
13 responsible given the ideal circumstances, I
14 think, establishes a kind of yardstick which can
15 be used for comparison purposes by other
16 districts, and at least to -- where there is a
17 board of education, popularly elected, that's
18 formulating policy, the employer would continue
19 to be the city of New York. All contractual
20 labor agreements would be -- would apply, and we
21 would function under that same auspices, and the
22 -- the four-year term, we would have that
23 election on the same day in November in which
24 the New York City Mayor and City Council are
25 elected. Each voter would be eligible to vote
1081
1 for three candidates.
2 So Staten Island has a good
3 record, notwithstanding the demographics. We
4 have had consistently, without interruption
5 under the old system, a good representation of
6 minority elected members in the Staten Island
7 board, and this singularly salutory performance
8 on the part of Staten Island ensures that it
9 will -- it will certainly be observed in future
10 elections.
11 I strongly suggest to my members
12 who might be a little troubled that we're a
13 little different in desiring the continuation of
14 what the rest of the state -- the rest of the
15 state has this, virtually -- virtually every,
16 outside the city of New York, it -- except that
17 we would continue to be fiscally dependent and
18 the fiscal dependency would be a process of
19 appropriation. It would change nothing with
20 respect to that.
21 So I -- we have a yardstick here
22 that I think would be salutory and it would be
23 observed in the way they perform and -- and as
24 the situation improves and normalizes throughout
25 the rest of the city they may be attracted to do
1082
1 it the same way. The city take emergency
2 measures and, as I say, I acknowledge the fact
3 that Herculean task of what's being assumed by
4 the chancellor. I certainly wish him well, but
5 this, I think, is a complementary accompaniment
6 of school governance in the city of New York
7 where it is utterly and totally feasible given
8 the percentage of people that could participate
9 even under the present system of election -
10 SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Goodman, why do you rise?
13 SENATOR GOODMAN: It's impossible
14 to hear the speaker.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I was
16 just noticing the same thing. Can we have a
17 little order in the house, please. Members
18 please take their seats, staff please take their
19 seats. We hate to have to remove the staff this
20 early in the session.
21 SENATOR MARCHI: Thank you, Mr.
22 President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Thank
24 you, Senator Marchi. Sorry for the
25 interruption.
1083
1 SENATOR MARCHI: We would
2 establish a financial officer. The
3 qualifications would be set up by the
4 Commissioner of Education, and it would have to
5 be supported by the board and the nominee and
6 the consent again of the Commissioner of
7 Education, so that I -- we have addressed in a
8 very careful manner, I think, all of the aspects
9 that would characterize a separate district.
10 So I believe that this board
11 which is earnestly desired in Staten Island,
12 very -- there's scarcely a dissenting voice
13 anywhere in the county -- I haven't heard any
14 dissenting voice. I've only heard full -- full
15 support and approval of this proposal, that it
16 be given a fair trial, and I -- I think that the
17 entire City would benefit by having this
18 yardstick and the people of Staten Island, I
19 think, given the prologue that is represented by
20 its present performance ensures that it will
21 expand and enhance the school board system of
22 education which is that which, in fact, most of
23 you have experienced throughout the state, an
24 opportunity to operate on Staten Island.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
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1 Stavisky, did you wish to continue to be
2 recognized?
3 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yes.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The Chair
5 recognizes Senator Stavisky.
6 SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President,
7 I say this with profound respect for the sponsor
8 of this legislation who has labored for many
9 years in the field of education and has always
10 been constructive in the way in which he
11 approaches such issues.
12 Nevertheless, unlike the original
13 borough board plan which was to apply to all of
14 the districts and all of the counties in New
15 York City, this does not have a parallel
16 situation with regard to any other county. You
17 have here a borough board in Staten Island but
18 in no other county. You have powers that are
19 given to this borough board at the same time
20 that powers are retained by the Central Board of
21 Education, and I believe that the objective is a
22 separate Staten Island school district and
23 perhaps a separate Staten Island, which may be
24 the ultimate objective.
25 We cannot have a situation where
1085
1 in individuals are subject to differences in the
2 standards by which they are elected or served
3 from county to county, borough to borough. If
4 you want secession for Staten Island, then
5 that's a different situation, but I don't
6 believe secession was a great idea in 1860 and
7 it has not improved with age.
8 Under the circumstances, because
9 there is a commingling of functions that, in the
10 rest of the city and the rest of the school
11 districts, would be reserved by the Central
12 Board of Education but here would be given to
13 the borough board, and the inconsistency between
14 the election here, the powers that are granted
15 here to the Staten Island borough board and the
16 powers that are not granted to school districts
17 anywhere else in the state, I think under these
18 circumstances, this limited bill poses a problem
19 and does not merit the support of all the
20 members of the chamber.
21 I would like very much, Senator
22 Marchi, to be able to support a program that you
23 would wish to see, but this does not necessarily
24 fall within that category. It's a special bill
25 with special provisions for Staten Island that
1086
1 would exist nowhere else in the city of New
2 York, in the Bronx, in Manhattan, in Queens, in
3 Brooklyn. They do not have under your bill
4 anything comparable, and I believe that you may
5 wish to reconsider the implications of having a
6 semi-secession by one borough and one borough's
7 school board in comparison with what is needed
8 to reform the system as a whole.
9 You have purchases that are being
10 made by this borough board that are not
11 necessarily the same as the purchases that are
12 made by the Central Board of Education. You may
13 have personnel decisions that are made by this
14 borough board that are not commensurate with the
15 personnel decisions that exist anywhere else in
16 the New York City School District. You may have
17 agreements that are worked out by this borough
18 board that put them at variance with regard to
19 the opportunities that are available to teachers
20 and others elsewhere in the City.
21 If you want to do a five-borough
22 board situation, that's a different approach,
23 but that does not exist in your legislation.
24 Because of the separatism, I believe that not
25 all the members of this session -- of this
1087
1 Legislature, as supportive as we are of your
2 goal, should automatically vote for your bill.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
4 recognizes Senator Gentile.
5 SENATOR GENTILE: Mr. President,
6 on the bill. I rise in support of the bill put
7 forth by my colleague, my friend and my partner
8 on Staten Island, Senator Marchi.
9 What better place to try this
10 experiment than in the smallest borough of New
11 York City, Staten Island? In the other
12 boroughs, there are multiple school board
13 districts. Staten Island, as Senator Marchi has
14 pointed out, has only one school district. So
15 what better place to try this experiment than on
16 the -- on Staten Island?
17 You know, it is -- we've had this
18 new law reforming the school boards that had
19 just passed the end of last year, but you know,
20 that law is not responsive to the needs of the
21 Staten Island School District. Indeed, that new
22 law corrected some of the improprieties that we
23 found in the other school districts around the
24 city. Staten Island did not have those problems
25 so, in effect, Staten Island has been penalized
1088
1 by much of what's gone on in the new
2 legislation. In fact, it's not responsive to
3 some of the things that Staten Island most
4 needs.
5 For example, only yesterday -
6 only yesterday I had faculty members from P.S.
7 41 on Staten Island in my office pleading with
8 me over the growth in the student population and
9 the need for new schools on Staten Island that
10 is not being addressed by the central board of
11 education.
12 They have asked for our
13 leadership in creating some kind of proposal so
14 that we can address those specific issues in
15 Staten Island. That is what this legislation
16 can do if we pass it.
17 Now, for those of you who might
18 say this is only a precursor to a secession bill
19 on Staten Island, well, in fact this may be a
20 precursor to a secession bill for Staten Island
21 if we do not recognize the special needs of
22 Staten Island.
23 You know, Staten Island has for
24 too long been overlooked by New York City in
25 trying -- in their governance structure.
1089
1 They've been overburdened in New York City with
2 the dump -- and I don't ascribe to the euphemism
3 that some of my colleagues use and call it a
4 landfill. I call it a dump. And so I say, if
5 we don't recognize the special needs of Staten
6 Islanders, then indeed this may be a precursor
7 to a secession bill.
8 But -- so I support Senator
9 Marchi's bill and ask my colleagues on both
10 sides of the aisle to let us show -- let us show
11 that we care about Staten Islanders. Let us
12 show that we care and have the competence -
13 that Staten Islanders have the ability to run
14 their own school district. Let us pass this
15 bill.
16 Thank you.
17 SENATOR CONNOR: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Connor.
20 SENATOR CONNOR: Yes, Mr.
21 President. As I've often said on this floor, I
22 have a unique perspective on Staten Island bills
23 having once upon a time been privileged for ten
24 years to represent part of Staten Island. Since
25 I have not represented Staten Island, I must
1090
1 confess my attention has strayed elsewhere
2 despite the eloquent advocacies over these past
3 couple years by Senator Marchi, and I did change
4 my mind about certainly some Staten Island
5 issues like one-way tolls that I once supported,
6 and today I'm here to announce another change of
7 mind, frankly.
8 Two years ago, I voted against
9 this bill. I'll have to admit I guess I wasn't
10 paying close attention to what Senator Marchi
11 said at the time, certainly not out of any lack
12 of respect for his views, but I guess my
13 attention was elsewhere.
14 Well, something happened, Mr.
15 President, this year. Someone got my
16 attention. One of the newer members of this
17 chamber, Senator Gentile, came to me and
18 reminded me of that unique situation Staten
19 Islanders find themselves in, the smallest
20 borough, the island borough, the borough that
21 can brag of a green belt, the borough that can
22 in fact, if they got their way I suppose, be the
23 second largest city in the state, and the fact
24 that Staten Island is a community school
25 district all in and of itself and has been, and
1091
1 after the discussion with Senator Gentile, I
2 have to say, Mr. President, I've changed my mind
3 once again. Call me fickle, if you will, but I
4 think the people of Staten Island make a good
5 case for this bill, and I intend to support it.
6 Thank you, Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
8 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
9 Senator Marchi?
10 SENATOR MARCHI: An embarrassment
11 of riches here. Senator, that was a masterful
12 presentation, Senator, and the accretion to our
13 forces here is certainly impressive. I have
14 unbounded respect for Senator Stavisky. We did
15 offer, however -
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Marchi, Senator Marchi. Excuse me just a
18 minute. Senator Marchi. Excuse me just a
19 minute. It's getting noisy again. Could the
20 Senators please take their seats. If they have
21 conversations, take them out of the chamber.
22 Serious debate going on, would like to hear it.
23 Thank you for the interruption.
24 Senator Marchi.
25 SENATOR MARCHI: Thank you again,
1092
1 Mr. President.
2 I certainly yield to nobody -- to
3 no one in my respect for Senator Stavisky and
4 what he has meant back many, many years in the
5 field of education as well as other matters.
6 We did offer, of course, and
7 force majeure in the other areas of policy
8 developed, that this was the only solution that
9 ought to be brought into play given the present
10 circumstances. I respect it, I yield to it but,
11 on the other hand, this is an opportunity to -
12 to have side by side at least an exemplar of the
13 traditional mode of doing it.
14 And so I have no quarrel with
15 you, sir, as I say I had originally offered
16 this, but this was not -- not to be. So I again
17 am delighted at the turn of events, and it would
18 appear that perhaps in this house at least we
19 will have support for this bill, and I hope that
20 since in the field of education -- secession is
21 something else; that is still a cherished dream,
22 but there are circumstances that have impeded
23 its consideration.
24 There are no similar reservations
25 on -- in the field of education where the
1093
1 Legislature obviously has the final say on -- in
2 these matters, so I would hope that as many
3 members convey the feeling that we can reflect
4 back to Staten Island that there is considerable
5 support in this house for the proposal that has
6 been advanced here this morning.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
8 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
9 Hearing none, the Secretary will read the last
10 section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
12 act shall take effect on the 30th day.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
17 the results when tabulated.
18 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
19 the negative on Calendar Number 77 are Senators
20 Abate, Goodman, Kruger, Lachman, Leichter,
21 Nanula, Oppenheimer, Santiago and Stavisky.
22 Ayes -- also Senator Seabrook. Ayes 48, nays
23 10.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
25 is passed.
1094
1 Senator Skelos.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
3 at this time would you call up Calendar Number
4 51, Senate 126, by Senator Stafford.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
6 will read.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 51, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 126, an
9 act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to
10 prohibiting abandonment of Crane Pond Road.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Stafford, an explanation of Calendar Number 51
13 has been requested.
14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
15 this will be the first time we've discussed
16 Crane Pond since Senator Oppenheimer has the
17 seat that she has chosen for this legislative
18 two years, but we always have a visit, and this
19 will make it easier because I had trouble
20 hearing when she was in her previous seat.
21 I will not -- try not to be light
22 about this, because a number of us feel very
23 strongly about it. On the other hand, all you'd
24 have to do is take out and read the debate from
25 5-15-91, 3-27-92, 5-11-94, 1-30-95, 2-12-96, and
1095
1 you would hear what we are talking about.
2 Without being light but trying to
3 keep our sense of humor, let me explain
4 something here. This is a road that's been
5 maintained by the town. It goes through the
6 Pharaoh Mountain area. The powers that be in
7 the Department, a number of years ago, called
8 this a wilderness area.
9 My friends, I have stood there
10 and you hear the cars on the Northway. If
11 that's a wilderness area, then I'm missing
12 something. It isn't, my friend. We passed a
13 bill. The argument is going to be made, let's
14 look at the overall plan. This is serious
15 enough for the people who want to use this area,
16 such as the physically challenged, elderly and
17 the very young will be not able to enjoy this
18 area as they do now.
19 The town maintains it. It's a
20 beautiful area; it's a public area. I
21 respectfully submit that a mistake was made
22 calling this a wilderness area and, therefore, I
23 rise again to support this legislation.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Oppenheimer.
1096
1 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: It wouldn't
2 be a session if we weren't discussing Crane
3 Pond, and I understand what Senator Stafford
4 says, and I appreciate it, but there's another
5 side to this which I would like to present, and
6 that is that the state land master plan was
7 created to preserve wilderness areas.
8 There is within that plan a
9 revision process which includes public hearings,
10 and it occurs every five years. In the 1970s,
11 there were 12 to 15 wilderness areas that were
12 designated in the Adirondacks, and Pharaoh Lake
13 wilderness area, in which this Crane Pond Road
14 is, is one of those areas.
15 In that area we have seen
16 considerable degradation and litter due to the
17 influence of people coming into an area that is
18 supposed to be a wilderness area, and so in 1987
19 the Crane Pond Road -- and that's not so long
20 ago -- was designated specifically, officially
21 for closure, and barriers were put up and within
22 a brief period of time barriers were taken down
23 by the local people.
24 We know many instances where
25 localities have not been pleased with things
1097
1 that have been placed within their environs but
2 the fact is we have law here, and the town of
3 Schroon, they did pursue legal efforts and they
4 were effectively halted when the state Court of
5 Appeals upheld the state land master plan. So
6 they have gone to court, they have tried to
7 pursue this through the normal process which is
8 this five-year review, and they have not been
9 successful. So obviously there is a state plan
10 that says that there are areas where local
11 citizens may not agree, but it is in the
12 interest of the state.
13 A wilderness area is for
14 individuals who are seeking a wilderness
15 experience which will be free of the motor
16 vehicles, and this bill simply flouts the law,
17 and it's a dangerous precedent. The state
18 master plan would simply lose all of its vision,
19 its impact, its integrity if we were to pass
20 this bill.
21 There is a review process which
22 allows amendments, and the locality simply has
23 not been able to make its best case, so to
24 circumvent the law this way, I think, threatens
25 not only this wilderness area but it threatens
1098
1 all wilderness areas, and I might add that
2 approximately half of the public forest preserve
3 lands in the Adirondacks are classified as wild
4 forest and in those areas there is motor vehicle
5 usage.
6 So I think this bill would be a
7 very bad precedent. It would say that our state
8 land master plan really doesn't mean anything,
9 and I think we must stand behind that and
10 protect our wilderness areas.
11 So I will be voting no. In the
12 past many of my colleagues have joined me on
13 this including, Senators Abate, Connor,
14 Dollinger, Leichter, Gold, Markowitz,
15 Montgomery, Nanula, Onorato, Paterson, Smith,
16 Stachowski, also on the other side of the aisle
17 Senators Goodman, Leibell, Levy, Marcellino and
18 Maziarz. So I would hope that we would have the
19 same kind of support this year that we have had
20 in the past.
21 Thank you.
22 SENATOR STAFFORD: Thank you, Mr.
23 President.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Stafford.
1099
1 SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
2 Senator Oppenheimer and I worked on the bond
3 issue together. There are things we agree
4 upon. This is something we disagree upon. My
5 friends, first we're not circumventing. We pass
6 the laws here, and the bureaucrats don't tell us
7 what to do. We tell them what to do and, if we
8 don't, we're not doing our job. So I would
9 respectfully submit that we're circumventing
10 nothing.
11 Secondly, I can't emphasize this
12 enough. You stand there and you can hear the
13 cars on the Northway. This is not a wilderness
14 area. I'm not a professional in the DEC, but
15 I've lived there all my life, and I'm even
16 mellowing on some of these issues, but on this
17 one, please, I assure you that this is not a
18 wilderness area and this will allow -- this will
19 allow physically challenged, elderly and you can
20 bring in young families and they can enjoy one
21 of the most great areas -- a great area of the
22 state part of the Adirondacks.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
24 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
25 Senator Leichter.
1100
1 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
2 just very briefly, on this bill.
3 There's just one thing that I
4 think Senator Stafford said that I think needs a
5 little clarification and let me say I appreciate
6 how assiduously he represents his area, because
7 I happen to have a home in his district and I
8 know how highly he's considered by the people in
9 his district, and rightly so.
10 But, Senator, if you make the
11 test of whether you can hear cars on the
12 Northway as to whether it's a wilderness area or
13 not, then many parts that you would agree are
14 wilderness would no longer meet that -- meat
15 that classification.
16 SENATOR STAFFORD: I -- I very
17 seldom -- I do interrupt, I seldom but I do. I
18 apologize, but would you please answer a
19 question?
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, sir.
21 SENATOR STAFFORD: Name me one
22 other place that's a wilderness area that you
23 can hear cars from the Northway.
24 SENATOR LEICHTER: Yes, I was
25 just going to do it. I climbed a couple years
1101
1 ago McCoo, which is a trailless peak; it's a
2 4,000-foot peak.
3 SENATOR STAFFORD: There's a
4 trail there, but you can't see it very well.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, all
6 right. In any event, you're 4,000 feet up, it
7 happens to overlook the Northway; you look down
8 and you can hear the cars.
9 SENATOR STAFFORD: If you can
10 hear the cars there, I'll buy you a dinner in
11 any place in the United States of America.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Would you make
13 the reservation at Lutece, please.
14 SENATOR STAFFORD: Where is that?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
16 Gentlemen! Gentlemen! The Chair would like to
17 know whether that offer stands for the Chair
18 also.
19 Senator Stafford.
20 SENATOR STAFFORD: I apologize.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
22 will read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
24 act shall take effect immediately.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
1102
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the
3 roll.).
4 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Slow roll
5 call.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are there
7 five members in the chamber standing who would
8 request a slow roll call? There are.
9 Secretary will call the roll
10 slowly.
11 Senator Stafford, did you wish to
12 be recognized?
13 SENATOR STAFFORD: The first shot
14 has been fired across the bow.
15 Withdraw the roll call. Lay the
16 bill aside.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
18 is laid aside.
19 Secretary will continue to read
20 the controversial calendar.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 158, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 1387, an
23 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
24 relation to partitions and shields.
25 SENATOR LACHMAN: Explanation on
1103
1 the bill.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Velella, an explanation of Calendar Number 158
4 has been requested by Senator Lachman.
5 SENATOR VELELLA: This bill would
6 give local governments an option to opt out of a
7 bill that we passed last year requiring safety
8 shields in taxicabs. It would give the local
9 governments the opportunity to address a state
10 mandate and address it in a way that was more
11 adaptable to their local government. If they
12 choose to change some of the provisions, they
13 would have the opportunity to do that. Right
14 now, we have just a blanket requirement for any
15 municipality that has over 75,000 people to put
16 these barriers up.
17 A lot of local governments have
18 contacted us that they have their own safety
19 provisions in place including the city of New
20 York, and that the state mandate poses an unfair
21 burden to some of the taxicab operators in local
22 governance.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
24 Lachman.
25 SENATOR LACHMAN: Will the
1104
1 distinguished Senator yield for a couple of
2 questions?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Velella, do you yield?
5 SENATOR VELELLA: Certainly.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 yields.
8 SENATOR LACHMAN: Does the
9 Senator know what percentage of non-medallion
10 for-hire vehicles currently have safety
11 partitions in New York City?
12 Now, the reason why I ask this
13 question is there has been only one killing of a
14 cab driver in a medallion cab in the three years
15 since partitions were required, but there have
16 been 27 livery drivers, non-medallion, who have
17 been killed. So do you have any idea at this
18 point what percentage of non-medallion for-hire
19 vehicles currently have partitions in New York
20 City?
21 SENATOR VELELLA: No, I don't.
22 SENATOR LACHMAN: I have another
23 question or two if the Senator will continue to
24 yield.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
1105
1 Velella, do you continue to yield?
2 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 continues to yield.
5 SENATOR LACHMAN: In light of the
6 number of non-medallion deaths last year in New
7 York City, couldn't these drivers have benefited
8 from better safety equipment?
9 SENATOR VELELLA: Senator, I
10 wouldn't have enough knowledge to answer that
11 question. I don't know the particular case of
12 each shooting or each fatality, and I couldn't
13 tell you if certain types of safety equipment
14 would have prevented that crime or not prevented
15 it.
16 SENATOR LACHMAN: I understand.
17 I understand.
18 SENATOR VELELLA: The purpose of
19 this bill is to allow the local government to
20 make that decision.
21 SENATOR LACHMAN: I understand.
22 SENATOR VELELLA: We ought not to
23 be dictating from Albany what a local government
24 should be doing.
25 SENATOR LACHMAN: I understand
1106
1 what you're trying to do. One more question.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Velella, do you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 continues to yield.
7 SENATOR LACHMAN: On a personal
8 basis, Senator, wouldn't it be better to require
9 these safety devices in cities over 75,000
10 throughout the state of New York as originally
11 drafted and simply exempt the class of taxis
12 which today clearly do not need these safety
13 devices?
14 SENATOR VELELLA: Well, Senator,
15 I believe that we ought to let the local
16 governments make that decision. We in Albany
17 cannot decide what is beneficial to each
18 community that has 75,000 or more. We have a
19 law in place that says everybody must have these
20 shields. If, in fact, that presents a problem
21 to a particular locality, this will give them
22 the opportunity to address that problem. If
23 they don't address it, then they need to have
24 the shield.
25 SENATOR LACHMAN: Thank you,
1107
1 Senator.
2 SENATOR VELELLA: You're welcome.
3 SENATOR LACHMAN: You've been
4 honest and candid with the questions. On the
5 bill, I'd like to make a statement.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Lachman, on the bill.
8 SENATOR LACHMAN: This bill that
9 is sponsored by Senator Velella does address a
10 problem that was created when partitions were
11 required in all taxicabs that was passed by law
12 last year.
13 Now, black cars, cars used by
14 corporations, that are billed on account, do not
15 currently accept cash and, therefore, do not
16 accept street hails when somebody wants to hail
17 such a car on the street, and they are not
18 necessarily in need of partitions and safety
19 latch.
20 If an exemption was not created
21 it would cost the industry a great deal of money
22 and make these cars less luxurious for many of
23 their corporate clients. Since New York City
24 already regulates their taxi industry through
25 the Taxi and Limousine Commission and requires
1108
1 the safety devices on many cabs, their
2 exemptions from these requirements will hope
3 fully have little negative impact on driver
4 safety which should be our major goal, and I'm
5 sure is the Senator's major goal.
6 I do believe that we need to go
7 further than this bill does, but I do
8 appreciate, Senator, the need to quickly correct
9 most of the problem in New York City for the
10 black car industry. Furthermore, I have been
11 assured by the New York City Taxi and Limousine
12 Commission that they will be expanding their
13 partition requirements for many more for-hire
14 vehicles in the future.
15 Now, how do I vote? I would have
16 preferred a bill which simply carves out an
17 exemption or an exception to the vehicles where
18 the safety devices are clearly not needed, but
19 in its absence, this bill will have to do. I,
20 therefore, will vote in the affirmative on this
21 legislation.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
23 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
24 Senator Dollinger.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
1109
1 President, I sometimes find myself in unusual
2 positions. I'm in the unusual position of
3 agreeing with my colleague from the Bronx.
4 SENATOR VELELLA: Mr. President,
5 would you star the bill.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I want you to
7 know, Mr. President -
8 SENATOR GOLD: He's serious.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: -- when he
10 was referred to as "the distinguished Senator" I
11 was going to object as a point of order, but I
12 did not, so -- but nonetheless, I do agree with
13 my colleague from the Bronx.
14 When we pass this legislation
15 it's like many pieces of legislation,
16 beneficial, intended to protect people but one
17 of the things that we forgot was that there are
18 local communities that have already established
19 criteria for protection of cab drivers. They
20 already have well established regulations. They
21 have better ability to respond to the kinds of
22 problems that occurred in Albany and that have
23 occurred in New York with the occasional
24 shooting of cab drivers -- enormously
25 regrettable incidents, something that we should
1110
1 be aware of, but currently the local communities
2 have all the protection that they need.
3 One of those communities that I
4 believe contacted the Senate, and I know we
5 proposed a bill was to exempt the city of
6 Rochester from these requirements because in the
7 judgment of the cab operators in Rochester, it's
8 not needed and in the judgment of the City
9 Council it's not needed and, therefore, I think
10 this bill is a good idea. It reverses a mandate
11 that was nonetheless beneficial in its intent
12 but turned out to be oppressive and changed the
13 marketplace inadvertently. So I think we're
14 making a good move today by stepping back,
15 letting local communities size up the extent of
16 this problem. Let them solve it. It's the
17 right way to do it.
18 I'll be voting in the
19 affirmative.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other
21 Senator wishing to speak on this bill? Hearing
22 none, the Secretary will read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
24 act shall take effect on the same date as
25 Chapter 550.
1111
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll. )
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
6 is passed.
7 Secretary will continue to read
8 the controversial calendar.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 173, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 912, an act
11 to amend the Election Law, in relation to the
12 hours for voting.
13 SENATOR LACHMAN: Explanation.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Larkin, an explanation of Calendar Number 173
16 has been requested by a couple of Senators.
17 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President,
18 this bill is a very simple bill. It's been a
19 refined bill from the one we had last year which
20 included multiple counties.
21 This bill pertains to a single
22 county, Ulster County, which wants to have the
23 certain privilege that other counties have in
24 this state of having primary election day held
25 from noon until 9:00 p.m.
1112
1 This legislation has been
2 forwarded to us as a resolution from the county
3 of Ulster. It has the support of the Election
4 Commissioners' Association of the state of New
5 York, and the objection that we had last year
6 was that it had two counties, Orange and Ulster,
7 and my colleagues on the other side of the aisle
8 complained about the people in Orange County
9 commuting to New York City, didn't have ample
10 time to vote. We've done that part of it and
11 have taken Orange County out. We've made town
12 meetings across Ulster County, and we find that
13 the residents are in support of this. The
14 county treasurer claims that this will save
15 $19,200 of the county's taxpayers' money, and we
16 believe that this is in the best interest.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Gold, why do you rise?
20 SENATOR GOLD: Will Senator
21 Larkin yield to one question?
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Larkin, do you yield to Senator Gold?
24 SENATOR LARKIN: I will yield to
25 one question.
1113
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 yields.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I think
4 one of the questions we asked last year, I think
5 it was on this bill, was whether there was any
6 study that was done as to how many people were
7 actually voting between the hours that you're
8 cutting out of this bill, how many people were
9 affected, and I don't think you had numbers last
10 year. Perhaps you do have that this year and it
11 would give us perhaps a better picture.
12 SENATOR LARKIN: Well, I don't
13 have a study, an official study, but last year
14 there was a Conservative primary in Ulster
15 County and between the hours of 6:00 in the
16 morning and noon, there were three people
17 voted.
18 I think to keep all of the booths
19 open for three people to vote is a waste and
20 when you start to think that every county in
21 this state, with the exception of the city of
22 New York, Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester, Erie
23 and Orange, have noon to 9:00 p.m. voting, I
24 think it's only right that we give the voters
25 the opportunity.
1114
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Gold, was the explanation to your question
3 sufficient?
4 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I believe
5 Senator Paterson -
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Chair
7 recognizes Senator Paterson.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
9 President.
10 If Senator Larkin would yield for
11 a question or two.
12 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr.
13 President.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
15 my question to Senator Larkin is, I'm not sure
16 at first, in response to Senator Gold's question
17 as to whether or not there was a study, my
18 question is, what we're talking about here is
19 cutting out 40 percent of the elapsed
20 voting time that we permit in the primaries, and
21 that's a significant amount of time even if it
22 is from 6:00 a.m. to noon. Now, if only three
23 people are voting in that particular time, I
24 don't know how many people are voting for the
25 whole day, so it does seem to me, I agree with
1115
1 you that three people voting over a six-hour
2 period of time for $19,200, maybe that's a wise
3 decision, I don't know but how many people are
4 voting for the whole day, and I think all
5 Senator Gold was asking was, can we establish
6 that there really is a basis to make this
7 decision rather than speculation or what the
8 point of view is of individuals, even if they're
9 in a significant position?
10 What we're saying is that the
11 value of voting is something that we generally
12 only exercise a few times a year, and it's the
13 basis for us being here in this chamber. We
14 don't want to, in any way, obfuscate or inhibit
15 the opportunity for individuals to exercise that
16 right and, if it is a close call, we would
17 rather err on the side of the voter because
18 that's what sets this country apart from so many
19 places globally, and what we're just saying is
20 how much more foresighted would it be to just
21 simply bring to us the number of people who are
22 voting on that day in Ulster County and the
23 number who voted between 6:00 a.m. and noon and
24 if it's so significantly less, if it's five or
25 ten percent, I guess we should close the polls
1116
1 and open them at noon, but if it's something
2 close to the amount of time that is the
3 percentage of the whole time that is voted that
4 day, I wouldn't want to change it.
5 So my question is, do you
6 actually have those statistics and, if you do,
7 what are they?
8 SENATOR LARKIN: Well, Senator
9 Paterson, I think we ought to go back to the
10 basics on this. All Ulster County is asking for
11 is the same privileges that all of the rest of
12 the upstate counties have. Every other upstate
13 county north of Ulster County has voting from
14 noon to 9:00 p.m. Why should they be excluded?
15 We have a resolution from the
16 county legislature. It has been discussed, it
17 has been supported by the Association of
18 Election Commissioners, as an upstate issue and
19 I believe that we have -- we should be
20 responding. We come in here and we get requests
21 from counties with legislators to increase the
22 sales tax. We don't ask what do the people
23 think about the sales tax? We have a resolution;
24 we have a home rule resolution. We have a home
25 rule resolution on this bill.
1117
1 The county has evaluated this
2 situation. It's been discussed by their own
3 county legislators. I can only speak for myself
4 and I'm sure Senator Cook could probably tell
5 you, at our town meetings we've asked people, do
6 you have a problem with this, and we've never
7 seen them have a problem. Am I correct,
8 Senator? So here is a county that says, We're
9 sending you a resolution just like we do on
10 sales tax and other things. It's been adopted
11 by our county legislature. We've taken it up,
12 it's an upstate county asking for the same
13 privilege that the rest of the upstate counties
14 have, and I think we have a moral and an ethical
15 obligation.
16 Do you think that the county
17 legislature would try to deny their people an
18 opportunity to vote? I don't.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Was that a
22 question, Senator?
23 Mr. President, the issue of
24 elections and the issue of the electoral
25 process, I think, has to be favored over the
1118
1 value of any other issue, because it really is
2 the basis for our government, and I don't know,
3 I've seen a number of things that were
4 influenced in terms of what boards of elections
5 did, and I'm not talking about Ulster County -
6 I don't know of any there -- but all over the
7 state where there was certainly a feeling, I
8 mean when do we have primary day, Senator? We
9 have primary day in September. People are still
10 coming back from summer vacation. That's not
11 the right time to have primaries. Primary day
12 should probably be in June when the candidates
13 will at least get some momentum up. I feel
14 sorry for candidates who are in primaries in
15 July and August and they're going around to
16 events and there's no one around. Nobody really
17 cares about the process at that time. And who
18 probably in both parties is most interested in
19 having primary day in September? Incumbents,
20 because it makes it more difficult to beat
21 incumbents.
22 So this is a human system, and it
23 often succumbs to the frailties of human conduct
24 and all I'm saying is, if there was an estab
25 lishment of the criteria that would just simply
1119
1 answer the question Senator Gold asked, I would
2 have no problem voting for this bill. I didn't
3 really hear an answer to that question, but you
4 did raise an important issue, and I -- if the
5 Senator would yield, I would ask this question.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Larkin.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Why, when the
9 upstate counties were granted this in the first
10 place, were the counties of Ulster and Orange
11 left out? In other words, if this were a broad
12 situation that the upstate counties should have
13 been afforded, then why were they left out in
14 the first place? Perhaps if you could tell me
15 that it would bring me more insight on why I
16 should vote for the bill.
17 SENATOR LARKIN: Well, first of
18 all, Senator, they weren't. They had the same
19 privileges as the other counties, but back in
20 the late '70s a former colleagues of ours, the
21 late Senator Dick Schermerhorn, and Assemblyman
22 Maurice Hinchey decided to open it up from 6:00
23 in the morning. I believe it lasted about four
24 or five years, and then they asked to remove it
25 because they found out that there were not a
1120
1 significant number of people voting between 6:00
2 and noon, but they were previous to that time
3 excluded, Senator.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Well, thank
5 you very much, Senator.
6 Then, in other words, just to
7 follow up on Senator Gold's question one last
8 time -- this is the last time I'll ask it -- so
9 that means that for the last 15 years they have
10 not been able to feel comfort from the polls
11 opening at 6:00 a.m., the feeling is that it
12 would be better to move it back to noon because
13 it doesn't really solve much by just having a
14 couple of people vote.
15 So my question simply is in all
16 that time, why didn't they simply just write
17 down the number of people who are voting over
18 the whole day and divide it by the number of
19 people voting between 6:00 o'clock and noon.
20 There would have been an answer that's so
21 obvious that even myself and Senator Gold would
22 have had to admit that the bill should be passed
23 and the time should be relaxed back to noon.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Larkin, I believe Senator Paterson is asking you
1121
1 to yield. Senator Paterson, I don't think
2 Senator Larkin heard the question.
3 SENATOR LARKIN: I really didn't
4 get the question.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: The question
6 is three words: Where's the study?
7 SENATOR LARKIN: The question
8 goes back, Senator, I think if you're looking
9 for a study, I think that's one thing but then I
10 have to go back and ask you the same thing. Why
11 did we vote to allow people to raise the sales
12 tax? Did we see a study that said, before you
13 had the home rule message you should have had a
14 study to find out if the people needed to comply
15 with it.
16 Here we have two things: A bill
17 that was passed many years ago because somebody
18 said the population in the counties is
19 increasing, maybe we need an opportunity to get
20 it. We've now seen that year after year we've
21 had resolutions from the county saying that this
22 is not productive, the number of people coming
23 out to vote, the hours of voting does not
24 produce the voters that we think it should and
25 we should go back to the original concept.
1122
1 Now, we talk about mandates on a
2 local government. Here's a mandate that's
3 costing them $20,000 a year and it hasn't
4 produced any new voters.
5 Thank you.
6 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
8 me, Senator Gold.
9 Senator Lachman had indicated a
10 prior desire to speak. I'll recognize -- the
11 Chair recognizes Senator Lachman.
12 SENATOR GOLD: May I, Senator?
13 He's deferring.
14 SENATOR LACHMAN: Certainly.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Lachman yield?
17 Senator Gold.
18 SENATOR GOLD: Let me just say
19 one thing to you. I think that in today's
20 debate you said things which are much more -
21 reacting much more sympathetically than I've
22 heard in the past. For example, I think it's
23 important for me to understand that you were in
24 a different ballgame until local legislators
25 asked, because of apparently local need, to be
1123
1 included in this exception.
2 Now local legislators are seeing
3 the change and, as I say, I'm very sympathetic
4 to that, because it looks to me like someone is
5 studying the situation. It's only a suggestion
6 and saying that, I know how suggestions from
7 this side of the aisle are taken in the past but
8 maybe you'll react differently. I think that if
9 you laid this over for a couple days you could
10 probably get some members.
11 You're talking about one county.
12 In fact, for example, that Conservative primary,
13 if let's say a hundred people voted that day
14 just to pick a number, Senator Larkin, let's say
15 a hundred, and three out of a hundred voted in
16 that time frame, that would have a great
17 influence on me, to tell you the truth, and I
18 think that Senator Paterson and I and others are
19 not trying to be difficult in this situation,
20 but it would make it more comfortable for
21 everybody to just see some of those numbers and
22 I'm not telling you if you give me numbers I'm
23 going to ask you to lay it aside because I'm
24 going to send a private investigator to check
25 the numbers, but it seems to me that the numbers
1124
1 are there, and we would like to be helpful and
2 this is not a bill that ought to have to pass
3 with large numbers of negatives if, in fact,
4 it's the right thing to do for this locality and
5 I just am making that suggestion.
6 I'd like to be supportive,
7 Senator, and today you gave us some better
8 insight, I believe. You are dealing with only
9 the one county this year and I think you can get
10 some members that will make this thing fly a lot
11 easier and not only in this house but maybe in
12 the other house.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Lachman.
15 SENATOR LACHMAN: Senator Larkin
16 (talking over)
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: You asking
18 Senator Larkin to yield, Senator Lachman?
19 SENATOR LACHMAN: Yes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Larkin, do you yield to a question?
22 SENATOR LACHMAN: Senator Larkin,
23 I have just one or two questions at the most.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: (Talking
25 over) Senator Lachman.
1125
1 SENATOR LACHMAN: One or two
2 questions at the most, Senator Larkin. Can you
3 give me in a straightforward simple answer what
4 is the major goal of this legislation?
5 SENATOR LARKIN: Simple, to give
6 -- one, to give the county the same authority
7 that all the rest of the upstate counties have;
8 number two, to acknowledge the fact that we have
9 a resolution from a county, a home rule message,
10 asking us to give them the authority that is
11 vested in them as a county just as we do in
12 anything else that they send up here to us and
13 conform voting patterns consistent with
14 upstate. That's all -- and saving money when it
15 has been proven that they -- it's not
16 necessary.
17 SENATOR LACHMAN: Would it make a
18 difference -- may I continue? Senator continue
19 to yield?
20 Would it make a difference if,
21 forget the word "study", if you discover,
22 Senator Larkin, that not in the Conservative
23 primary where there are fewer voters voting but
24 in the Democratic or Republican Party primary in
25 Ulster County that there is a much larger vote
1126
1 between the hours of 9:00 a.m. and 12:00 noon?
2 SENATOR LARKIN: The county has
3 looked at it very carefully. When we
4 restructured the bill this year, we took out
5 Orange County because we're going to look at how
6 many -- the polls are talkin' about people going
7 into New York City. We don't have that problem
8 in Ulster County. I haven't seen anything that
9 has discouraged anybody or increased anybody in
10 those hours in the primaries. We haven't had
11 that many primaries.
12 SENATOR LACHMAN: On the bill.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Lachman, on the bill.
15 SENATOR LACHMAN: I think there
16 is another issue relating to this legislation
17 that has impact beyond Ulster County, and now I
18 don't want to put on the shoulders of Ulster
19 County the responsibility of being a bellwether
20 for the state of New York, but I'm very, very
21 concerned as are my colleagues in this chamber
22 on the voter turn-out in general. I think it is
23 shocking and outrageous that in the 1994
24 Congressional elections only 38 percent of
25 Americans voted, and I think it is equally
1127
1 outrageous that -- and shocking that in the 1996
2 presidential election, less than half of the
3 American people who are eligible to vote, 49
4 percent went to the polls.
5 Now, my problem with the
6 legislation is that rather than cutting down the
7 hours, we should perhaps increase the hours or
8 induce more voters to vote. Of the 15 largest
9 industrialized nations in the world, the United
10 States of America ranks last in voter turn-out.
11 Now, the Benelux nations have
12 devised another way, Senator, of raising funds
13 or decreasing monies needed for this. Either
14 way, they have taxed people who don't go to the
15 polls. Now, I'm not ready to support that
16 measure, but I am opposed to any legislation
17 that would limit the number of hours that
18 American citizens have to vote.
19 So I regret, Senator, that I will
20 have to oppose this legislation.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
22 any other Senator -- Senator Cook.
23 SENATOR COOK: Mr. President,
24 Senator Larkin is absolutely correct. Ulster
25 County, if you look at a map, is totally
1128
1 surrounded by counties where the 12:00 to 9:00
2 hours apply, except for Orange County. It's the
3 only adjoining county where the hours are
4 different and, as he indicated, that was because
5 of some legislation that Senator Schermerhorn
6 had sponsored a number of years ago.
7 I think Senator Schermerhorn did
8 that with all good intention thinking that
9 indeed many of the concerns that people have
10 had, it would expand the hours and that by
11 expanding the hours you expand the turn-out. It
12 really isn't possible to document whether that's
13 true or not, because numbers of voters are
14 different. We don't have that many primaries,
15 so the consistency from one year to another is
16 not document... you can't document and, frankly,
17 they don't make a list as to what time people
18 show up at the polls. We don't know what time
19 they showed up. But the people who sit at the
20 polling places tell us that the number of voters
21 has not changed dramatically or appreciably
22 because we've changed the hours, and the reason
23 is that 12:00 to 9:00 really spans virtually any
24 combination of working hours that you could
25 think of. People work shifts from 9:00 to 5:00,
1129
1 3:00 to 12:00, they work -- you can almost
2 figure on looking at those hours from 12:00 to
3 9:00 and saying that everybody really has an
4 opportunity to vote some time in that period of
5 time.
6 Now, if there were a situation
7 where indeed we were going to perhaps close the
8 hours back to 7:00 and someone were working in
9 the City and they weren't able to get back in
10 time to vote, the kind of thing that might
11 happen, then I would say perhaps that's a
12 consequence.
13 But the point is that we're
14 talking about having four people sit at every
15 single polling place in that -- in that county
16 for an entire day, 6:00 o'clock in the morning
17 now until noon, and often nobody shows up -
18 literally nobody shows up to vote the entire day
19 and even more often nobody shows up between 6:00
20 o'clock and noon, and even in a Republican
21 primary as one who has participated in a few of
22 those myself, I can tell you that the voter par
23 ticipation is meager at best and, Senator, I
24 agree, I wish the voter participation were more,
25 but the fact is that the longer hours haven't
1130
1 seemed to make that happen, that there's no
2 indication that the percentage of people who are
3 voting in primaries is any greater now with the
4 longer hours than it was at the time when we had
5 the statewide hours of 12:00 to 9:00, and I
6 think that that is the logical reason why the
7 localities are saying first, the cost of having
8 to pay the extra time for people to sit at the
9 polling places is a financial burden upon the
10 towns because every single polling place has to
11 be open and, secondly, frankly, it's getting
12 difficult in some cases to find people to sit at
13 polling places because they don't want to sit
14 there from 6:00 o'clock in the morning until
15 9:00 o'clock at night, and it would be much
16 easier to man or woman the polling places if we
17 had more reasonable hours.
18 So this bill is not a punitive
19 measure. It's a measure saying, Look, we tried
20 a good idea. The good idea didn't seem to turn
21 out. We'd like to go back and be like everybody
22 else in the state.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other
24 Senator wishing to speak on the bill? Hearing
25 none, the Secretary will read the last section.
1131
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2 act shall take effect on the 30th day.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
4 roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll. )
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Announce
7 the results when tabulated.
8 Senator Gold, to explain his
9 vote.
10 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, Mr.
11 President. I guess the more we think things
12 change, the more they stay the same, and I think
13 that Senator Larkin may have wanted to follow my
14 suggestion, and I saw a lot of nodding on that
15 side and obviously if a Democrat's suggestion
16 might be able to do something to make things
17 easier it's going to be ignored.
18 Having said that, I read
19 something interesting the last few days, that
20 the so-called Republican landslide in '94 was
21 38,000 votes nationally, and if 19,000 people
22 had had a little more sense, we wouldn't have to
23 put up with the Newt Gingriches of the world.
24 So you never know what's going to happen with
25 small amounts of votes.
1132
1 Senator Larkin, as far as I'm
2 concerned, there is a burden of proof here.
3 This legislation is caused by the fact that a
4 local Senator came to us and asked us to change
5 it and now -- and at that point in time we could
6 understand it. We can understand anybody who
7 says, Open up the polls and let my people have
8 more access. We find it a little more difficult
9 when you say close the polls, and that creates a
10 certain burden.
11 You have a right, Senator, to
12 handle your legislation the way you want. On a
13 personal basis, you know that I respect you.
14 I'm going to vote no.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Gold will be recorded in the negative.
17 Senator Oppenheimer to explain
18 her vote.
19 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'm going
20 to be voting yes.
21 I guess as an ex-mayor I
22 appreciate the point that spending $20,000 for
23 three votes just doesn't make financial sense.
24 Also considering that almost every county has
25 the hours that you're referring to and it has
1133
1 worked well in those counties, I think we have
2 to apply -- I'm normally one who speaks very
3 much for voter participation being an ex-League
4 of Women Voters president, but you have to
5 balance things.
6 You have to look at both sides
7 and, in this case, and it's a primary, not the
8 general, it just seems it make great sense. I
9 am as concerned as Senator Lachman about the
10 lack of voter participation in our nation. It
11 is horrendous; it's embarrassing and I would
12 like to see us address that issue.
13 There are techniques, different
14 strategies, such as opening polls on week ends.
15 There are a variety of things that we can look
16 at, and I think we ought to be looking at them,
17 but on this issue, I will be voting yes.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Oppenheimer will be recorded in the
20 affirmative.
21 Senator Paterson, to explain his
22 vote.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
24 I'd like to explain my vote and to further
25 explain Senator Gold's vote.
1134
1 Senator Larkin said that there
2 were three people who voted in a Conservative
3 Party primary last year and I wasn't quite sure
4 if that was in the whole Ulster County, perhaps
5 it was, between noon and 6:00 a.m.
6 Senator Cook said that you can't
7 document that information, and I think that it's
8 unfortunate that we would come to this
9 conclusion when we actually can. We're not
10 necessarily interested in how many people are
11 voting from year to year. We're interested in
12 what is the percentage of the vote for the
13 entire day. The reason it's so important is
14 because this is a very significant right in this
15 country, one that our ancestors fought for, and
16 one that makes this country such -- the
17 democracy that it is.
18 In areas where voting is
19 concerned, because it has a national interest,
20 because people are so upset that we don't have
21 greater participation, we really to have hold
22 the issue to a higher standard and, as Senator
23 Gold said, if someone wanted to expand the time
24 that the polls are open, we'd be a lot more
25 agreeable than if they prevent it.
1135
1 Now, on an issue such as sales
2 tax or things that different counties do, we
3 always want to follow the lead of the local
4 government, but on issues that involve elections
5 which is really something that's constitutional,
6 a right that extends all over the land, we would
7 like to just have a little bit of information
8 such that we understand that we're actually
9 allowing this to take place for a good reason.
10 Many times the Justice Department
11 has had to come into New York State and to hold
12 up and disqualify elections because certain
13 procedures were not followed. If a few people
14 are voting between the hours of noon -- of 6:00
15 a.m. and noon and it's just not a convenient
16 time for voters, we certainly being sacrifice
17 that to save money, but if it's just put in a
18 way that we can understand it, it makes it that
19 much easier.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: How are
21 you are voting, Senator Paterson?
22 SENATOR PATERSON: I thought
23 while I was talking I would come to a
24 conclusion.
25 I'll vote no, Mr. President.
1136
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Paterson will be recorded in the negative.
3 Announce the results.
4 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
5 the negative on Calendar Number 173 are Senators
6 Connor, Gold, Lachman, Leichter, Markowitz,
7 Onorato, Paterson, Sampson, Seabrook and
8 Stachowski; also Senator Gentile. Ayes 47, nays
9 11. Also Senator Mendez. Ayes 46, nays 12.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 Secretary will continue to read
13 the controversial calendar.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 207, substituted earlier today, by member of the
16 Assembly Magee, Assembly Print 2462, an act in
17 relation to legalizing and validating certain
18 acts and proceedings.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
20 local fiscal impact note at the desk. Secretary
21 will read the last section.
22 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
23 act shall take effect immediately.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
25 roll.
1137
1 (The Secretary called the roll. )
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
4 is passed.
5 Senator Skelos.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
7 is there any housekeeping at the desk?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We have
9 one standing committee report, Senator, we'd
10 like to read at this time if it's O.K.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: We could do it.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Return to
13 the reports of standing committees, ask the
14 Secretary to read the report of the Higher
15 Education Committee.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle,
17 from the Committee on Higher Education, reports
18 the following bills:
19 Senate Print 1289, by Senator
20 Saland, an act to amend the Education Law;
21 1358, by Senator LaValle, an act
22 to amend the Education Law;
23 2014, by Senator Rath, an act to
24 amend the Education Law;
25 2597, by Senator LaValle, an act
1138
1 to amend the Education Law; and
2 2598, by Senator LaValle, an act
3 to amend the Education Law.
4 All bills ordered direct for
5 third reading.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
7 objection, all bills ordered directly to third
8 reading.
9 Senator Skelos.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Mr.
11 President. There will be an immediate meeting
12 of the Majority -- conference of the Majority in
13 the Majority Conference Room, and there being no
14 further business, I move we adjourn until
15 Monday, March 3rd, at 3:00 p.m., intervening
16 days being legislative days.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Be an
18 immediate meeting of the Majority Conference,
19 immediate meeting of the Majority Conference in
20 the Majority Conference Room, Room 332.
21 Without objection, the Senate
22 stands adjourned until Monday, March 3rd, 3:00
23 p.m.
24 (Whereupon at 12:30 p.m., the
25 Senate adjourned. )