Regular Session - April 9, 1997

                                                                 
2684

         1

         2

         3

         4

         5

         6

         7

         8                       ALBANY, NEW YORK

         9                         April 9, 1997

        10                          10:10 a.m.

        11

        12

        13                       REGULAR SESSION

        14

        15

        16

        17       SENATOR JOHN R. KUHL, JR., Acting President

        18       STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary

        19

        20

        21

        22

        23

        24

        25







                                                             
2685

         1                      P R O C E E D I N G S

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         3       Senate will come to order.  Ask the members to

         4       find their places, the staff to find their

         5       places.  Ask everybody in the chamber to rise

         6       and join we in saying the Pledge of Allegiance

         7       to the Flag.

         8                      (The assemblage repeated the

         9       Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

        10                      In the absence of clergy, may we

        11       bow our heads in a moment of silence.

        12                      (A moment of silence was

        13       observed.)

        14                      The reading of the Journal.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  In Senate,

        16       Tuesday, April 8th.  The Senate met pursuant to

        17       adjournment.  The Journal of Monday, April 7th,

        18       was read and approved.  On motion, the Senate

        19       adjourned.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Hearing

        21       no objection, the Journal stands approved as

        22       read.

        23                      Presentation of petitions.

        24                      Messages from the Assembly.

        25                      Messages from the Governor.







                                                             
2686

         1                      Reports of standing committees.

         2                      The Secretary will read.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Marchi,

         4       from the Committee on Corporations, Authorities

         5       and Commissions, offers up the following bills:

         6                      Senate Print 3646, by Senator

         7       Leibell, an act to amend the Public Authorities

         8       Law;

         9                      3674, by Senator Leibell, an act

        10       to amend the Public Authorities Law, in relation

        11       to the powers of the state of New York Mortgage

        12       Agency;

        13                      3731, by Senator Leibell, an act

        14       to amend Chapter 915 of the Laws of 1982.

        15                      All bills directly for third

        16       reading.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Hearing

        18       no objection, the bills are ordered directly to

        19       third reading.

        20                      Reports of select committees.

        21                      Communications and reports from

        22       state officers.

        23                      Motions and resolutions.

        24                      We have a couple substitutions,

        25       Senator Skelos.







                                                             
2687

         1                      I'll ask the Secretary to read.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Lack

         3       moves to discharge from the Committee on

         4       Judiciary Assembly Bill Number 6487 and

         5       substitute it for the identical Senate Bill

         6       3581.

         7                      Senator Skelos moves to discharge

         8       from the Committee on Education Assembly Bill

         9       Number 339 and substitute it for the identical

        10       Senate Bill 3209.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        12       substitutions are ordered.

        13                      Senator Skelos, that brings us to

        14       the calendar.

        15                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        16       just for planning purposes, there will be a

        17       meeting of the Higher Education Committee at

        18       10:30 in the Majority Conference Room.

        19                      If we could take up the

        20       controversial -- non-controversial calendar at

        21       this time.

        22                      Mr. President, if we could just

        23       stand at ease for a minute while we admire your

        24       tie.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Thank







                                                             
2688

         1       you, Senator Skelos.

         2                      (Whereupon, the Senate stood at

         3       ease.)

         4                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Skelos.

         7                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Take up the

         8       non-controversial calendar.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        10       Secretary will read the non-controversial

        11       calendar.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       307, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 2584-A, an

        14       act to amend the Family Court Act and the

        15       Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation to

        16       suspension of eligibility for a license.

        17                      SENATOR SMITH:  Lay it aside,

        18       please.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        20       bill aside at the request of Senator Smith.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       314, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 2573, an act

        23       to amend the Education Law and the Public Health

        24       Law, in relation to the licenses of members of

        25       the United States Armed Forces.







                                                             
2689

         1                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it aside.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         3       bill aside.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       354, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 2484-A, an

         6       act authorizing the assessor of the county of

         7       Nassau to accept an application for exemption

         8       from real property taxes.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        10       Secretary will read the last section.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        12       act shall take effect immediately.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        14       roll.

        15                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 33.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        18       is passed.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       411, by Senator Bruno -

        21                      SENATOR GOLD:  Lay it aside.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  -- Senate Print

        23       2-A, an act to amend the Tax Law and the Public

        24       Service Law, in relation to a reduction in the

        25       rate of tax.







                                                             
2690

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

         2       bill aside at the request of Senator Gold.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       414, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 3083, an

         5       act to amend the State Finance Law, in relation

         6       to contracts for architectural and engineering

         7       services.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         9       Secretary will read the last section.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        11       act shall take effect on the 60th day.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        13       roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 34.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        17       is passed.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       423, by Senator Levy, Senate Print 1344, an act

        20       to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in

        21       relation to a requirement to mandate full

        22       resident addresses.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        24       Secretary will read the last section.

        25                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This







                                                             
2691

         1       act shall take effect immediately.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

         3       roll.

         4                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 34.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         7       is passed.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       433, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3140, an

        10       act to amend the Town Law, in relation to the

        11       powers and duties of fire district

        12       commissioners.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        14       Secretary will read the last section.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        16       act shall take effect immediately.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        18       roll.

        19                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 34.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        22       is passed.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        24       483, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3672, an

        25       act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in







                                                             
2692

         1       relation to allowing the town of Minetto to

         2       contract.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There is

         4       a home rule message at the desk.  The Secretary

         5       will lay the bill aside.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       491, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 479-A,

         8       an act to amend the Public Health Law, in

         9       relation to the establishment or incorporation

        10       of hospitals.

        11                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay it aside.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Lay the

        13       bill aside.

        14                      Senator Skelos, that completes

        15       the reading of the non-controversial calendar.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        17       if we could take up the controversial calendar

        18       at this time.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        20       Secretary will read the controversial calendar,

        21       beginning with Calendar Number 307 on page 10.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       307, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 2584-A, an

        24       act to amend the Family Court Act and the

        25       Vehicle and Traffic Law, in relation to







                                                             
2693

         1       suspension of eligibility for a license.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         3       Secretary will read the last section.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

         5       act shall take effect in 120 days.

         6                      SENATOR SMITH:  I wanted an

         7       explanation.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Johnson, Senator Smith has asked for an

        10       explanation of Calendar Number 307.

        11                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Mr. President,

        12       this bill addresses a gap in the law in which

        13       there's really no penalty for a youngster under

        14       16 caught driving without a license.  He's -

        15       cannot be charged as an adult -

        16                      SENATOR GOLD:  Madam President -

        17       Madam President -

        18                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Now that we got

        19       that straightened out -- and there's nothing

        20       more important to youngsters than being able to

        21       drive an automobile, it seems, and this says if

        22       you're under 16 and you're caught driving

        23       without a license, you will have a penalty and

        24       that penalty will be that you cannot get a

        25       license until 18 or age 21 as determined by a







                                                             
2694

         1       court.

         2                      I think it's -- it adds an

         3       additional, shall I say penalty and negative to

         4       the driving without a license.  We don't want

         5       them on the road.  We want them to know they

         6       will not get a license until 18 or 21 because

         7       they've taken a car illegally when they were not

         8       licensed.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Smith.

        11                      SENATOR SMITH:  Mr. President,

        12       would the sponsor yield to a question?

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        14       Johnson, do you yield to a question?

        15                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Yes, Mr.

        16       President.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        18       Senator yields.

        19                      SENATOR SMITH:  Through you, Mr.

        20       President.  Does that mean that the person that

        21       is 16 years or younger would be committing a

        22       crime other than driving without a license, or

        23       is it solely based on just driving without a

        24       license?

        25                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  No.  The only







                                                             
2695

         1       thing they have is a violation of driving

         2       without a license.  There wouldn't be any other

         3       penalty other than not having this -

         4                      SENATOR SMITH:  So they wouldn't

         5       be inebriated or anything else.

         6                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Well, if they

         7       were, I suppose it's another story and then that

         8       would be handled by a juvenile court.

         9                      SENATOR SMITH:  Thank you, Mr.

        10       President.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Any other

        12       Senator wishing to speak on the bill?

        13                      (There was no response.)

        14                      Hearing none, the Secretary will

        15       read the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.  This

        17       act shall take effect in 120 days.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        19       roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Record

        22       the negatives and announce the results.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 37, nays 1,

        24       Senator Smith recorded in the negative.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill







                                                             
2696

         1       is passed.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       314, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 2573, an act

         4       to amend the Education Law and the Public Health

         5       Law, in relation to the licensing of members of

         6       the United States Armed Forces.

         7                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         9       Meier, an explanation of Calendar Number 314 has

        10       been requested.

        11                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,

        12       this bill would permit the transfer of military

        13       course work and military experience and permit

        14       its consideration by the Department of Education

        15       for licensing certain health care

        16       professionals.  The bill specifically covers

        17       respiratory therapy, occupational therapy and

        18       physical therapy.

        19                      It would also, in connection with

        20       some other certified health professionals,

        21       direct the New York State Emergency Medical

        22       Service Council to give consideration in

        23       certifying emergency medical technicians and

        24       advanced EMTs to give consideration to

        25       equivalent military training.







                                                             
2697

         1                      While it permits the Department

         2       of Education in the area of licensing these

         3       therapists, occupational, respiratory and

         4       physical, it permits them to consider the

         5       military training.  It still preserves the right

         6       of the Department of Education to maintain

         7       standards by requiring that the course work or

         8       the actual experiential of that person's work

         9       would have to meet Department of Education

        10       standards.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        12       Paterson.

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        14       President.

        15                      That was an excellent explanation

        16       and now I have learned the proper use for the

        17       word "experiential".  It's the first piece of

        18       legislation we've noticed that was introduced by

        19       our new Senator and colleague, Senator Meier,

        20       and it's, I think, hopefully the prelude to

        21       other pieces of legislation coming out of that

        22       office which will improve the quality of life in

        23       this state.

        24                      We want to recognize this bill

        25       and congratulate him.  I'll probably cross the







                                                             
2698

         1       international datelines before one of my bills

         2       gets to the floor, but we are very happy that he

         3       introduced it and wanted to give him a chance to

         4       explain it.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Dollinger.

         7                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  One question,

         8       if the sponsor would yield.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        10       Meier, do you yield to a question from Senator

        11       Dollinger?  The Senator yields.

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Does this in

        13       any way waive the testing requirement for these

        14       professions, or does this simply allow them to

        15       take credit for their experience in the United

        16       States military as far as the experience portion

        17       of the requirement in order to take the test?

        18                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,

        19       the bill merely permits the Department of

        20       Education to accept the classroom training and

        21       the experience portion.  It does not in any

        22       other way waive or delete any requirements for

        23       licensure.  So it preserves the standards but

        24       permits consideration of military experience and

        25       training.







                                                             
2699

         1                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Very good,

         2       Mr. President.

         3                      I concur with the sentiments of

         4       Senator Paterson.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         6       Meier.

         7                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President, I

         8       would just note to my colleague, Senator

         9       Paterson, that this is my first time and I thank

        10       you for being gentle.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        12       any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?

        13                      (There was no response.)

        14                      Hearing none, the Secretary will

        15       read the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 9.  This

        17       act shall take effect on the 120th day.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        19       roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        23       is passed.

        24                      (Applause)

        25                      Senator Skelos.







                                                             
2700

         1                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         2       could you please take up Calendar Number 483 at

         3       this time.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         5       Secretary will read the title to Calendar Number

         6       483.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         8       483, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3672, an

         9       act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in

        10       relation to allowing the town of Minetto to

        11       contract.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There is

        13       a home rule message at the desk.

        14                      The Secretary will read the last

        15       section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        19       roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

        23       is passed.

        24                      Senator Skelos, you want to

        25       continue with Calendar Number 491?







                                                             
2701

         1                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Yes, Mr.

         2       President.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         4       Secretary will read the title to Calendar Number

         5       491.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       491, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 479-A,

         8       an act to amend the Public Health Law, in

         9       relation to the establishment or incorporation

        10       of hospitals.

        11                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Explanation.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        13       DeFrancisco, an explanation of Calendar Number

        14       491, Senate Print 479-A, has been requested by

        15       the Acting Minority Leader, Senator Paterson.

        16                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Yes.  This

        17       bill is a bill that would provide the same

        18       ability that all corporations under our Limited

        19       Liability Law presently enjoy and that would be

        20       extended to the hospitals and nursing homes, and

        21       it's basically a bill that just provides for

        22       this tax benefit that other corporations

        23       currently have and it does not in any way raise

        24       the possibility of out of state corporations

        25       coming here and becoming -- buying up







                                                             
2702

         1       corporations and having an out of state

         2       corporation having subsidiaries in this state,

         3       although that was one of the memos in

         4       opposition.  It doesn't do that at all and it

         5       just simply provides the same tax benefits that

         6       others have with limited liability companies.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

         8       Paterson.

         9                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        10       President.

        11                      Mr. President, this isn't Senator

        12       DeFrancisco's first bill, is it?  Well, then

        13       let's get started.

        14                      If Senator DeFrancisco would

        15       yield for a question.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        17       DeFrancisco, do you yield to a question from

        18       Senator Paterson?

        19                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Yes, I do.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        21       Senator yields anxiously.

        22                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator, there

        23       are a couple of memorandums in opposition to

        24       this piece of legislation, one from District

        25       Council 37 and one from the Civil Service







                                                             
2703

         1       Employees Association and there's a concern that

         2       I thought you might want to address that limited

         3       liability companies would be coming in and

         4       operating for-profit corporations in the

         5       management of hospitals and, therefore, taking

         6       advantage of the tax benefit.  Now, I'm not

         7       really clear on whether or not that is the case,

         8       and I thought perhaps you might want to share

         9       with us what your understanding is.

        10                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  That is -

        11       what I had mentioned briefly when I was trying

        12       to explain the bill, that is not the case and I

        13       point to page 5 of the bill and lines 20 to 23,

        14       it says "No hospitals shall be approved for

        15       establishment which would be operated by a

        16       corporation, any of the stock of which is owned

        17       by another corporation or a limited liability

        18       company, if any of its corporate member's stock

        19       is owned by another corporation."  In other

        20       words, that is not the intent at all.  It does

        21       not allow for that.  The bill doesn't allow for

        22       that at all.

        23                      Similarly, there's a comment in

        24       one of the memos in opposition that this would

        25       establish for-profit hospitals, and that's







                                                             
2704

         1       already permitted under state law under Section

         2       2801-A of the Public Health Law.  So I think

         3       what -- the concern wasn't that this would

         4       establish for-profit hospitals or for-profit

         5       nursing homes because it's already authorized

         6       under that law but that this would be some major

         7       corporation buying up all hospitals in our

         8       community and that is not permitted under the

         9       law.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        11       Dollinger.

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        13       President, on the bill.

        14                      I discussed this bill in

        15       committee and I have reviewed it carefully with

        16       respect to Senator DeFrancisco's comment about

        17       what exactly it does, and I'm satisfied that

        18       what this bill will do will simply allow either

        19       nursing homes or the very few hospitals in this

        20       state that are already in private hands, to

        21       allow a change in the ownership of those

        22       facilities from either partnerships or

        23       individual ownerships into limited liability

        24       corporations which have tax advantages similar

        25       to partnerships and also limited liability







                                                             
2705

         1       protections that affect their insurance coverage

         2       and their liability to patients and third

         3       parties.

         4                      So with that understanding, Mr.

         5       President, I'm going to vote in favor of this

         6       bill.  I do not read it as permitting any change

         7       in New York law with respect to either

         8       encouraging or discouraging for-profit hospitals

         9       or for-profit nursing homes from coming to this

        10       state.  If it did or if I thought it did or even

        11       gave an incentive to it, I would vote against

        12       it.  I'm convinced that it does not.  It simply

        13       allows for some transitions in ownerships

        14       consistent with our current philosophy in this

        15       state, and with that in mind, I will be voting

        16       in favor.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The Chair

        18       recognizes Senator Stafford.

        19                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Mr. President,

        20       I know people get sick of hearing this and I

        21       don't want any applause.  In 32 years, this is

        22       the first question I've ever asked on a bill.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Senator

        24       DeFrancisco, do you yield for this moment in

        25       history?







                                                             
2706

         1                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  You don't

         2       know how honored I am that I got the first

         3       question.

         4                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Don't be.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

         6       Senator yields.

         7                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Don't be.

         8       Isn't it true that we have an industry in this

         9       state and that wouldn't this sort of be -

        10       couldn't you define this maybe as being sensible

        11       and, in effect, we're trying to establish a

        12       level playing field?  Is that sort of what we're

        13       doing here?

        14                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Well, I

        15       think that's exactly what we're trying to do

        16       here.  I think we passed the Limited Liability

        17       Law for a very good reason.  Other states were

        18       doing the same thing and New York State did not

        19       have that tax advantage and people were

        20       incorporated in other states, and I think

        21       there's no reason why hospitals or nursing homes

        22       should not be provided with that same benefit.

        23       If they didn't, then we would be in the same

        24       situation with nursing homes and hospitals that

        25       we were with some of the other corporate







                                                             
2707

         1       entities that decided that they would

         2       incorporate in another state rather than the

         3       state of New York.

         4                      So I think it will provide a

         5       level playing field and there's no reason

         6       nursing homes and hospitals shouldn't have the

         7       same tax benefits that other corporations have

         8       gained under the Limited Liability Law and

         9       that's the sole intent of this bill and that's

        10       the intent that the -- that we hope to make into

        11       law by the passage in this house and also the

        12       Assembly and the Governor signing the bill.

        13                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Thank you.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Is there

        15       any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?

        16                      (There was no response.)

        17                      Hearing none, the Secretary will

        18       read the last section.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        20       act shall take effect immediately.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Call the

        22       roll.

        23                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  Record

        25       the negatives and announce the results.







                                                             
2708

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

         2       the negative on Calendar Number 491, Senators

         3       Abate, Connor, Onorato and Paterson.  Ayes 45,

         4       nays 4.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The bill

         6       is passed.

         7                      Senator Skelos.

         8                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         9       just a reminder that the Higher Education

        10       meeting is going on now starting at 10:30 in

        11       Room 332 of the Capitol and we'll stand at ease

        12       pending the report of the Higher Education

        13       Committee.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  There is

        15       a Higher Education Committee meeting going on in

        16       the Majority Conference Room, Room 332.

        17                      The Senate will stand at ease.

        18                      (Whereupon, the Senate stood at

        19       ease from 9:30 a.m. to 10:07 a.m.)

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       Senator Bruno, we have a report from a standing

        22       committee that we would like to have read.

        23                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Can we have the

        24       report, Mr. President.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                             
2709

         1       Thank you.

         2                      The Secretary will read.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator LaValle,

         4       from the Committee on Higher Education, offers

         5       up the following bills:

         6                      Senate Print 542, by Senator

         7       Johnson, an act to amend the Education Law;

         8                      2515-A, by Senator Skelos, an act

         9       to amend the Education Law;

        10                      3739, by Senator LaValle, an act

        11       to amend the Education Law, in relation to

        12       membership of the board of trustees.

        13                      All bills directly for third

        14       reading.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       Without objection, all bills directed to third

        17       reading.

        18                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President,

        19       can we at this time take up Calendar Number 411.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       Yes.  We have a local fiscal impact notice at

        22       the desk.

        23                      The Secretary will read.

        24                      SENATOR GOLD:  Explanation.

        25                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number







                                                             
2710

         1       411, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 2-A, an act

         2       to amend the Tax Law and Public Service Law, in

         3       relation to a reduction in the rate of tax.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Bruno, an explanation has been asked for

         6       by Senator Gold.

         7                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Thank you, Mr.

         8       President.

         9                      We have before us a jobs for the

        10       21st Century tax cut program.  The intent is

        11       exactly that.  Cut taxes in New York State, cut

        12       them appropriately and you will create jobs and

        13       economic development.

        14                      Now, how do we know that?  We

        15       know that by taking a look at what happened in

        16       the past.  During the '80s, early '90s, New York

        17       State led the country in losing jobs.  Your

        18       families, our neighbors, lost their jobs.  Those

        19       jobs were not in existence in New York State or

        20       they went to other states.  And why was that?

        21       Because of what we recognize now were the failed

        22       policies of government in New York State; failed

        23       in that we increased spending every single year

        24       and when you increase spending, you increase

        25       taxes and people in New York State were the







                                                             
2711

         1       highest taxed per capita in all of the United

         2       States.  As a consequence, we were last, 50th,

         3       in creating jobs in the United States, late

         4       '80s, early '90s.

         5                      Lost over 550,000 jobs here in

         6       this state.  Why?  Because we weren't

         7       competitive.  We could not compete with other

         8       states and other countries.  Business people and

         9       professionals take a look at the bottom line and

        10       when they look at the bottom line, if they know

        11       they can do better in Tennessee, in Texas, in

        12       New Jersey, in New Hampshire, in Massachusetts,

        13       that's where they grow their companies.

        14                      We elected a new governor, Mr.

        15       President, over two years ago.  We have new

        16       leadership here in this Senate and we have

        17       partnered with the Governor and with the

        18       Assembly and in two years, the people of New

        19       York State enjoyed more tax cuts, personal and

        20       business tax cuts two years in a row than all

        21       other 49 states combined.

        22                      What's happened as a result?  $6

        23       billion in tax cuts.  We quickly have moved up

        24       from 50th in job creation to 8th in job

        25       creation, creating over 175 new jobs every







                                                             
2712

         1       week.  Every month announcements are made of new

         2       jobs being created in New York State.  Why?

         3       Because we're becoming competitive.  We're

         4       becoming competitive and that is a credit to

         5       this Governor and his leadership, and this

         6       Legislature that partnered with the Governor in

         7       moving this state forward towards prosperity.

         8                      What we have before us continues

         9       something that's working.  Cutting taxes has

        10       worked in New York State.  So we're going to

        11       continue that.

        12                      We have already passed in this

        13       house a $3 billion property tax cut package.

        14       That will become part of the final budget that

        15       we adopt, and that's critical, and we partner

        16       with the Governor in his STAR program.

        17                      We now have before us a $2.5

        18       billion business tax cut package, and let me

        19       just run down through a list of these tax cuts

        20       and you can draw your own conclusions as to the

        21       positive impact that they will have on the

        22       people of this state.

        23                      This is not conversation.  It's

        24       not rhetoric.  What we're proposing here is very

        25       meaningful and we are going to do everything







                                                             
2713

         1       within our power to see that any budget that's

         2       adopted in this state includes this package or

         3       most of this package.

         4                      And we start with a reduction in

         5       energy costs.  We all know that the high energy

         6       costs -- New York State has the highest or

         7       second highest cost of energy in the whole

         8       country.  The cost of energy inhibits business

         9       growth.  We've had Grumman closing down,

        10       downsizing, moving out from the Island where

        11       they have the highest energy costs.

        12                      We have a gross receipts tax on

        13       energy in this state.  It's been there too

        14       long.  A gross receipts tax is the worst

        15       possible tax on business because a business

        16       could be losing millions and millions and still

        17       pay a tax.  That is not the American way and the

        18       result has been an inhibition of growth.  We

        19       have to get the gross receipts tax off of

        20       businesses and professions.  We should tax

        21       businesses on their bottom line and the bottom

        22       line is after expenses, you deduct expenses from

        23       the revenue and you have a bottom line and your

        24       bottom line is hopefully profitable.  On that

        25       profit, you pay a tax.  That's how we should tax







                                                             
2714

         1       businesses, not on revenue as the gross receipts

         2       tax does, but on the bottom line.  So we're

         3       talking about eliminating over a period of years

         4        -- first we want to do a freeze and then

         5       eliminating it over the next several years.

         6       That is $710 million to the people of this

         7       state.

         8                      We also tax health care

         9       facilities, nursing homes, hospitals, home care

        10       providers, and how do we tax them?  Above the

        11       line, a gross receipts tax, an assessment and

        12       that's wrong.  That is wrong.

        13                      We are going to phase that

        14       assessment or that above-the-line tax out

        15       because it costs your constituents and mine too

        16       much money already for health care.  So why do

        17       we want to add to their burden?  550 million

        18       we're going to reduce.

        19                      We want to reform the estate

        20       taxes here in New York State.  Why?  Because New

        21       York State, like we have done in the past with a

        22       lot of other taxes, we tax people as they die,

        23       after they die.  We tax them more in New York

        24       State than most other states.  So what do people

        25       do and what have they been doing?  It's not the







                                                             
2715

         1       only reason -- or it's one of the reasons they

         2       move to Florida and they die in Florida and

         3       their estate inherits a lot more of their hard

         4       earned money.  Caring parents do that too

         5       frequently.

         6                      We want to conform the New York

         7       State estate taxes to all the other states so

         8       that there is no encouragement for people to

         9       move out of this state, move elsewhere to pass

        10       their estate on to their children.

        11                      We also want to remove the gift

        12       tax, which is just a gratuitous tax.  We should

        13       remove it and that's part of our proposal.

        14                      There is much more.  Sales tax on

        15       clothing, a very popular thing to do.  We remove

        16       the sales tax on clothing.  We propose as part

        17       of our package to do away with the sales tax

        18       here in New York State on clothing of $500 or

        19       less.  We did it for a week.  It worked out

        20       extremely well, stimulated sales.  I think you

        21       bought a couple of suits, Senator Velella,

        22       right?  It was -- he moved the market all by

        23       himself in the Bronx.  We want to encourage him

        24       and others to go out and spend money here in

        25       this state.







                                                             
2716

         1                      Senator DeFrancisco said he

         2       bought six suits for that 500, but in all

         3       seriousness, the cost of clothing is too high.

         4       When we add a state tax on it, it's

         5       prohibitive.

         6                      So we phase it out this way.  One

         7       week in August, late August, tax-free, preschool

         8       and one week in January, first year, then we

         9       phase it out one percent a year over the next

        10       four years, and that's the New York State

        11       portion.  That is -- our estimates are in the

        12       neighborhood of $550 million.

        13                      What that means is that the

        14       consumer gets to keep $550 million, that they

        15       can go out and buy more clothes for their

        16       children, more food, pay for shelter and do all

        17       the kinds of things that stimulate the economy.

        18                      We are proposing an adoption tax

        19       credit.  It's kind of tragic that people that

        20       want to adopt children incur costs of 15-, 20-,

        21       $25,000 to adopt a child here in this state.

        22       We're proposing a tax credit to the tune of $20

        23       million for a person that adopts or a family

        24       that adopts a child.

        25                      Child care tax credit, $25







                                                             
2717

         1       million worth and that's to provide private

         2       companies to encourage child care so that

         3       mothers and families can go to work and improve

         4       their quality of life.

         5                      Small business employment

         6       incentive credit in EDZ zones, economic

         7       development zones, $5 million.

         8                      We want to extend the investment

         9       tax credit from 10 to 15 years.  People make

        10       investments.  They can't write them off in ten

        11       years.  They shouldn't be punished.  They write

        12       them off in 15 years to encourage them to

        13       continue to make investments in their business

        14       here in this state.

        15                      Insurance tax reform, we have to

        16       raise the cap on insurance companies to make

        17       them more competitive with other companies that

        18       are domiciled in other states.

        19                      We also have an Article XV tax,

        20       so-called which, in essence, indicates that

        21       insurance companies, if your car is damaged and

        22       you have an estimate, it takes $1,000 to fix it,

        23       insurance companies have to prepay the tax on

        24       that $1,000 before you even fix the car and if

        25       you never get it fixed, they're supposed to send







                                                             
2718

         1       the money anyway.  It's nonsense.  It's dumb.

         2       It's stupid because every study shows that to

         3       implement that -- and it's never been

         4       implemented yet and it's passed several years

         5       ago -- because the cost of managing it would be

         6       more than the revenue that would be derived, and

         7       yet we in the Senate each year have tried to

         8       rescind it.  It's still on the books.  We're

         9       going to try again this year.

        10                      In 1990, we had a bond issue and

        11       that bond issue, the interest was supposed to be

        12       financed by taxing beverage containers, beer and

        13       soda.  The bond issue failed.  We in this state

        14       kept taking the tax -- even though the purpose

        15       was no longer there, we kept taking the tax

        16       every year.  We started to do away with it two

        17       years ago.  We've got to finish doing away with

        18       it this year, and that's part of our package

        19       because it's the right thing to do.

        20                      We want to eliminate the

        21       petroleum business tax on railroads, $5

        22       million.  It makes it more competitive with

        23       railroads in other states.  We index the

        24       petroleum business tax.  It moves with the

        25       consumer index.  The tax goes up almost







                                                             
2719

         1       automatically.  We've got to stop that from

         2       happening because the cost of fuel is a critical

         3       cost of doing business in this state and we

         4       don't want to make it any more expensive than we

         5       have to, and there is another fuel that we want

         6       to reduce the tax on and that's liquor.

         7                      What is liquor?  We want to

         8       reduce the excise tax on liquor because people

         9       have an incentive to travel to other states,

        10       especially in the border towns, the border

        11       neighborhoods and we want to make New York State

        12       retailers more competitive.

        13                      Disability employment credit, $3

        14       million, and that is to encourage employers to

        15       hire people who are disabled.  That is most of

        16       what is in our $2.5 billion package.

        17                      Now, I have made the statement in

        18       the past that there's never been a tax cut that

        19       I didn't like.  So I and my colleagues, I know,

        20       are open because we in New York State still are

        21       among the highest taxed in the continental

        22       United States.  So we have to keep doing the

        23       kinds of things that we have been doing since

        24       Governor Pataki has been elected, since we've

        25       had new leadership here in the state, to







                                                             
2720

         1       continue to turn this state around and go

         2       forward and continue the successes that we have

         3       enjoyed over these last two years.

         4                      Thank you for your attention.

         5                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         7       Senator Gold.

         8                      SENATOR GOLD:  Thank you very

         9       much, Mr. President.

        10                      Senator Bruno, I admire your

        11       dedication to the business community, and I

        12       would tell you that it would be demagoguery on

        13       my part if I told you that we don't have an

        14       obligation to the business community.  We do.

        15                      On the other hand, Senator, I

        16       take a look at a bill that talks about tax cuts

        17       -- and I know in a vacuum I certainly am not

        18       opposed to tax cuts -- but where is the whole

        19       budget, Senator?  Where does this all fit in?

        20                      We've heard about a lot of things

        21       you said today over and over, and I don't want

        22       to repeat your side and my side.  You talk about

        23       loss of jobs and that we brought in new jobs.

        24       The answer to that, as you well know, is that we

        25       have been bringing in low level jobs.  People







                                                             
2721

         1       who used to have one job now have to work two

         2       jobs and there's still many, many people out

         3       there unemployed.  We have programs thrown at us

         4       by your side of the aisle and by the Governor to

         5       cut welfare and yet there's no jobs for these

         6       people, and there's a real sense of lack of

         7       reality in that.

         8                      You talk about an increase in

         9       spending over the last year, Senator, that

        10       brought us to a certain level, and I would

        11       remind you, if you would take a look not to the

        12       left but to the right, there are the people that

        13       voted for it.  There isn't a budget that passed

        14       under the Cuomo administration or the Carey

        15       administration that wasn't accepted and voted on

        16       by the Republican Party in this house.  When we

        17       went through a period of a few years where the

        18       budget increased $5 billion in taxes, your side

        19       of the aisle voted for those taxes.

        20                      Now, am I glad that we can say to

        21       people that things are doing better in New

        22       York?  Of course, I'm glad, and I assume that

        23       last year's vote was a recognition of how much

        24       Bill Clinton had to do with it and the federal

        25       government had to do with it, federal policies,







                                                             
2722

         1       and in terms of the $2.5 billion surplus from

         2       last year, a lot of it coming from Wall Street,

         3       Wall Street did very good selling stocks for

         4       companies outside of New York State.  They're

         5       doing very well all over the place.  So the Wall

         6       Street brokers did good and the market did good.

         7                      Senator, we have been accused in

         8       the last few days of posturing and playing to

         9       audiences rather than doing real legislative

        10       work.  I would suggest to you, Senator, that the

        11       rent bill which you voted down was real because

        12       that could have become a law because it was a

        13       two-house measure.  Your program today is a

        14       one-house measure.  If that isn't posturing, if

        15       that isn't demagoguery, then I don't know what

        16       is, Senator Bruno, because it is not part of the

        17       real world.

        18                      But here we are, nine days into

        19       April and there is no budget and, Senator Bruno,

        20       I remember two years ago -

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        22       Senator Gold, would you -- since it's our

        23       procedure -- I understand you have been here a

        24       lot longer than I have, but just a reminder that

        25       comments should be directed at the Chair -







                                                             
2723

         1       through the Chair and not to individuals.

         2                      SENATOR GOLD:  Your comment is

         3       well taken, Mr. President, and I will try to

         4       abide by that.

         5                      Mr. President, I listen very

         6       carefully when our distinguished Leader, Senator

         7       Bruno, speaks, and two years ago I'll never

         8       forget the comments in the press about the fact

         9       that the Assembly did not pass a budget and this

        10       house had put a budget out on the table.

        11                      Last year, as I remind my

        12       colleagues, we did not put out a budget.  We

        13       certainly weren't going to put out the

        14       Governor's budget because even the Majority of

        15       this house was ashamed of that budget.  They

        16       couldn't bring it to the floor and the Majority

        17       of this house didn't put a budget out on the

        18       floor until weeks after the April date.  I guess

        19       we're in the same predicament this year.

        20       Governor Pataki has submitted a budget.

        21                      Senator Bruno, Mr. President, has

        22       said that "we", meaning the Republicans, have

        23       partnered with the Governor and yet this year

        24       again they do not bring out the Governor's

        25       budget for a vote.  They don't bring out their







                                                             
2724

         1       own budget for a vote.

         2                      We had our second annual

         3       conference on estimating revenues and at the end

         4       of that, we did so great, we were only $1

         5       billion off between the bottom and the top.  Not

         6       bad.  If it was a billion-one and they threw in

         7       one for us, right, it wouldn't be bad, but

         8       again, no budget.

         9                      I don't want to make everything

        10       sound very bleak, so I have here -- I guess we

        11       should take an affirmative point of view, and I

        12       have some quotes which should lift our spirits

        13       from our former Vice-president, Mr. Quayle, who

        14       said "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of

        15       failure", and I think that we're trying -

        16       you're trying to succeed, Senator Bruno.  He

        17       said, "The future will be better tomorrow."  I

        18       guess we're all hoping that that is true.

        19                      But, Senator Bruno, I want to say

        20       something to you.  We have debated issues here

        21       -- and I know you're very concerned about rent

        22       control in the city of New York, and I know

        23       you're also concerned about jobs.

        24                      As you know, Senator Bruno, I

        25       spend a lot of time in Albany because that's my







                                                             
2725

         1       job coming up here, and I have here -- this is a

         2       capital region -- it's a special that's put out

         3       weekly by the Times Union and this one is dated

         4       March 20th and the big headline on the front

         5       page, "AT&T to eliminate up to 350 local jobs."

         6                      Senator Bruno, I know that in

         7       bringing this bill to the floor today, you're

         8       concerned about jobs.  I hope so, Senator,

         9       because while I'm suffering and fighting for

        10       rent control in my city, I hope right under your

        11       nose you're concerned about losing these jobs.

        12       Not only that, it mentions in here that this

        13       latest news of impending local layoffs follows

        14       the announcement by Governor George Pataki last

        15       week that Clifton Park Relay Center for the

        16       Hearing Impaired was going to be relocated to

        17       Syracuse.

        18                      Here again, the Governor tried to

        19       do in the Albany community a couple years ago,

        20       Senator Bruno, and maybe you shouldn't spend so

        21       much time in rent control because there's jobs

        22       right under your nose in your own district that

        23       are being threatened.

        24                      You know, Senator Bruno -

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                             
2726

         1       Senator Gold.

         2                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yes, Mr.

         3       President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  To

         5       the Chair, please.

         6                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yes.  Thank you,

         7       Mr. President.

         8                      Mr. President, I have a great

         9       respect for Senator Bruno and that is not said

        10       in jest, but it's funny.  It seems wherever I

        11       go, there are reminders of our distinguished

        12       Leader, and a little while back I was in Florida

        13       and there it was right in front of me, right in

        14       front of me and I thought of our distinguished

        15       leader, Mr. President, because right in front of

        16       me was this reminder and it said, "What are we

        17       doing with the budget?"  We're like in a swamp.

        18       We're in a quagmire.  We can't seem to get out

        19       of the mess we're in with the budget and

        20       everybody's looking for the exit and Senator

        21       Bruno says, Look, I know we're looking for the

        22       exit but we can get there my way.  I'm the

        23       Leader of the Senate, my way, one way and we'll

        24       take one way, but the problem, Senator Bruno, is

        25       that as this Florida reminder showed me, your







                                                             
2727

         1       one way doesn't get us to the exit.  As a matter

         2       of fact, it takes us in a completely different

         3       direction.  That's the problem.  The problem is,

         4       Senator, that we are here on March -- on April

         5       9th talking about one-house bills -- one-house

         6       bills that don't get us a budget.

         7                      Senator Stafford and I and

         8       Assemblyman Farrell and Assemblyman Faso had the

         9       opportunity to hold budget hearings and in all

        10       fairness, Senator Bruno -- Mr. President, in all

        11       fairness, Senator Bruno was not there because he

        12       had Senator Stafford there.  Senator Connor had

        13       me, et cetera, et cetera, and we went through

        14       days of hearings on the budget and we went

        15       through a period of this conference on revenue

        16       estimates and, again, the leaders were not

        17       there, Mr. President, and Senator Bruno said

        18       maybe we ought to have these Conference

        19       Committees now.  After all, the legislators

        20       ought to be involved.

        21                      We have transportation issues and

        22       certainly Senator Levy should have some input

        23       and the courts are a major part of the budget,

        24       and I know Senator Lack has sincere interest in

        25       that, and I could go around all the members of







                                                             
2728

         1       your side and I could go around all the members

         2       on our side, talk about Senator Hoffmann in

         3       agriculture, et cetera, et cetera, but the point

         4       is the committees never got set up.  We're not

         5       doing any work.

         6                      Now, when Governor Cuomo was the

         7       Governor and there were criticisms about a late

         8       budget, I know one thing.  Governor Cuomo would

         9       sit down there and he would be exasperated and

        10       he would call in Warren Anderson and call in

        11       Ralph Marino and many of us did not like the

        12       fact that there were three people working on the

        13       budget but somebody was working on the budget,

        14       somebody, somewhere.  And what do we have

        15       today?

        16                      I want you to listen, Senator

        17       Bruno, Mr. President and my colleagues, to the

        18       present budget negotiations.  I don't hear

        19       anything either.  There are none that we hear

        20       about and if it's happening in some room some

        21       place, that's disgusting.  If it turns out that

        22       it's going to happen in the press, that's even

        23       worse.  It ought to be part of a legislative

        24       solution and we're doing nothing, Mr. President,

        25       to bring about a budget.







                                                             
2729

         1                      Having said that, I will say that

         2       this package is posturing.  Are there ideas in

         3       it that are worthwhile to be discussed?

         4       Absolutely.  I particularly like the one that

         5       Senator Bruno mentioned where he said that it

         6       hasn't been implemented because it costs too

         7       much to implement.  So I say to myself, if it

         8       hasn't been implemented, where is the savings?

         9       It's not -- nothing is happening with it but,

        10       Senator, there are some interesting points you

        11       made, and I won't belittle it.  You know

        12       business and you have made their points very

        13       well and when it comes to gross receipts tax,

        14       Senator, this is something which many of us

        15       believe should be spoken about and addressed but

        16       not in an omnibus bill with no budget, no budget

        17       and if you're asking your members, Senator, to

        18       vote on a bill that throws away $2.5 billion

        19       after we already had a bill which talked about

        20       your property tax relief and your school relief

        21       -- that was another 2.5 billion, $5 billion -

        22       without showing us a total budget, I think,

        23       Senator, that that is fiscally irresponsible.

        24                      Not only that, I might point out

        25       that the Assembly passed a budget and there was







                                                             
2730

         1       some criticism as to where is the money.

         2       Senator -- Mr. President, our distinguished

         3       Leader has shown where the money is by putting

         4       out his property tax bill and putting out this

         5       bill.  There's an acknowledgment that there's

         6       enough money there to do the kind of things that

         7       the Assembly has been talking about.

         8                      Now, the only way to decide,

         9       Senator, whether we do those things that the

        10       Assembly is talking about or whether we just

        11       take all of these cuts or some of these cuts,

        12       most of these cuts, is to deal with it in

        13       negotiation, not posturing, and if you want to

        14       criticize us for posturing, Senator, it's time

        15       to look in the mirror, Mr. President, because

        16       that's all we're doing today is posturing.  I

        17       wish we weren't.  I wish that we could get the

        18       budget behind us.  I wish that we could have

        19       gotten rent control behind us the other day so

        20       that didn't get filtered into this issue, and I

        21       wish, Mr. President, that we could all make a

        22       decent plane today after the posturing.

        23                      Thank you.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Senator DeFrancisco.







                                                             
2731

         1                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  This is

         2       very instructive debate, very instructive debate

         3       for the students up there from my district.

         4                      What's being debated is a tax cut

         5       bill that would help stimulate jobs in our

         6       community, reduce taxes for businesses so your

         7       parents and your relatives could get jobs and to

         8       provide tax benefits for the individuals as well

         9       along the way and Senator Bruno outlined each

        10       one of those in graphic detail.

        11                      Now, when you're thinking of this

        12       debate later on, children, I just want to just

        13       ask you to think about the response to that

        14       bill.  The response quoted quotes from Dan

        15       Quayle, talked about budget negotiations, talked

        16       about everything except whether the bill is a

        17       good idea or whether it's a bad idea and the

        18       reason there is no indication from the other

        19       debater as to that it was a bad idea, because he

        20       really likes it.  He doesn't want to go out and

        21       say to the world that "I'm against tax cuts".

        22       So he'll criticize Senator Bruno for

        23       everything.  He'll make jokes.

        24                      If you were here about this time

        25       a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago, we







                                                             
2732

         1       had a similar debate about income tax cuts and

         2       you would have heard the same nonsense that

         3       you're hearing today.  "We can't afford it.

         4       It's a one-house bill.  It's this.  It's that."

         5       I don't think it was Dan Quayle then.  Maybe it

         6       was President Bush, but the fact of the matter

         7       is -- or whatever it was.  Maybe it was even

         8       Clinton.  The fact of the matter is that's a

         9       perfect way to debate a bill when you don't want

        10       to say you're against it but you can't really

        11       support it for political reasons.

        12                      So, ladies and gentlemen, I think

        13       what we have -- let me just complete and then I

        14       will be happy to answer any question.  So I

        15       think what we have here is an interesting

        16       exercise in democracy.  The bill is a good bill

        17       for the reasons that Senator Bruno stated and no

        18       one has indicated that it was a bad bill, at

        19       least at this point in time in the debate.

        20                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        22       Senator Gold, why do you rise?

        23                      SENATOR GOLD:  Would the

        24       distinguished gentleman from Syracuse yield to a

        25       question?







                                                             
2733

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Will the distinguished gentleman from Syracuse

         3       yield to a question?

         4                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  I will.

         5                      SENATOR GOLD:  Thank you.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  He

         7       will, Senator.

         8                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President, I

         9       heard the statements made by my colleague to the

        10       students and, first of all, I'm delighted that

        11       they're here and they ought to be here because

        12       that is learning, but I would like to know from

        13       the gentleman whether or not if the Governor's

        14       budget was on the floor today, he would vote for

        15       it to give us a budget.  Would you vote for the

        16       Governor's budget as it stands today?

        17                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  No, I would

        18       not.

        19                      SENATOR GOLD:  All right.  Will

        20       you yield to another question?

        21                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Yes.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Will you yield?  He yields.

        24                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator, I don't

        25       know why you wouldn't vote for it but I admire







                                                             
2734

         1       your answer.  The Governor's budget, as you and

         2       I understand it, would increase the costs of

         3       education at SUNY and CUNY.  It would do damage

         4       to the entire educational system and I would

         5       think, Senator, that one of the reasons that you

         6       might not vote for the budget is your concern

         7       for children and their education but, Senator,

         8       I've suggested we shouldn't pass the bill before

         9       us today because we don't have that final budget

        10       that takes care of our children's education and

        11       funds it properly.  Isn't it more responsible,

        12       Senator DeFrancisco, to wait until we have a

        13       full budget, know what money we need for our

        14       children and then filter in whatever tax cuts we

        15       can?

        16                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  Then that's

        17       exactly what you said a couple years ago when we

        18       in the Senate passed a, quotes, "one-house bill"

        19       for three years of income taxes that returned

        20       substantial amounts of monies to the citizens of

        21       this state.  It was a one-house bill at the

        22       time, but guess what happened?  During the

        23       budget negotiations, the Assembly decided that

        24       politically we can't just keep spending the

        25       state down into bankruptcy and they adopted that







                                                             
2735

         1       one-house bill.

         2                      So what we're doing today is

         3       responsible.  It's making it part of the debate

         4       so that we can, in addition to providing for the

         5       children, provide tax relief so for the long

         6       term we have a better tax base and there's more

         7       money spread across fewer people -- more people

         8       paying that bill.

         9                      Thank you.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Senator Dollinger.

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        13       President, will Senator Gold yield to a couple

        14       questions?

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       Senator gold, do you yield to Senator

        17       Dollinger?

        18                      SENATOR GOLD:  If they're easy.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       Only if they're easy, Senator, and if they're

        21       directed through the Chair.

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Senator, this

        23       bill -- I have not been through all the text of

        24       it.  I know you in your ranking position on

        25       Finance have been through and are familiar with







                                                             
2736

         1       the terms of this bill.  Does this bill specify

         2       the spending cuts that we will impose upon the

         3       people of this state to finance these tax cuts?

         4                      SENATOR GOLD:  No.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Again, if

         6       Senator Gold will continue to yield.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         8       Senator Gold, do you continue to yield?

         9                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yes.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  He

        11       yields.

        12                      SENATOR GOLD:  I'm doing good.

        13                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Is it safe to

        14       assume, Senator -- you have been here for a long

        15       time.

        16                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yes.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  You have been

        18       through many budgets many times.  Is it safe to

        19       assume that in order to fund these tax cuts, we

        20       would do what the Governor has proposed this

        21       year, which is to cut funds for education,

        22       increase tuition at CUNY and SUNY, cut our funds

        23       to hospitals, cut our funds to nursing homes,

        24       cut our state work force?  Is it safe to assume

        25       that that's what would be necessary to fund







                                                             
2737

         1       these tax cuts?

         2                      SENATOR GOLD:  What is safe to

         3       assume, Senator Dollinger, is that you obviously

         4       understood my remarks and you now understand the

         5       problem.  Unless you know what it is you are

         6       going to spend money on and unless Democrats,

         7       Republicans, Liberals, Conservatives, middle of

         8       the roaders all agree that there are certain

         9       projects that are important -- maybe it's roads

        10       in certain areas.  Maybe it's beaches in a

        11       different area.  Maybe it's senior citizen homes

        12       in certain areas.  Maybe it's education.  Maybe

        13       it's transportation for education -- once both

        14       sides of the aisle, once both houses, together

        15       with the Governor, agree that these are the

        16       legitimate needs of the people and then agree on

        17       what revenues we have available to meet those

        18       needs, it may very well be, as was pointed out,

        19       that a year may come when we can cut certain

        20       kinds of taxes, but tax cuts can be expensive

        21       also.

        22                      When you take away educational

        23       opportunity from children, that's expensive.

        24       When you don't provide jobs for their parents,

        25       that's hugely expensive.  So the answer is, yes,







                                                             
2738

         1       Senator Dollinger.  In terms of a tax cut, you

         2       don't put it out without explaining how it's

         3       funded.  In terms of a tax cut, you don't put it

         4       out unless you can explain a total budget that

         5       makes sure that needs are taken care of.

         6                      If we don't have a need, Senator

         7       Dollinger -- Mr. President, we don't have to

         8       raise one penny of taxes.  It is unnecessary to

         9       raise one penny of taxes in this state, I tell

        10       you that, unless you want hospitals, unless you

        11       want police, unless you want schools, unless you

        12       want jobs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

        13                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Will Senator

        14       Gold yield to just one more question?

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       Would you yield to just one more question?

        17                      SENATOR GOLD:  Just one more

        18       question.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       Just one more question.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Senator, you

        22       heard earlier in this chamber in this debate,

        23       someone described the failed policies of the

        24       past decade.  Just so I understand your remarks,

        25       was it your opinion -- and I just want you to







                                                             
2739

         1       clarify this for me -- that those failed

         2       policies were actually approved by the Majority

         3       in this house and that those very same policies

         4       that increased taxes, that created assessments

         5       on nursing homes, that created the gross

         6       receipts tax, that put taxes on clothing, that

         7       created an insurance tax, that all these things

         8       were approved in this chamber, this very

         9       chamber; is that true, Mr. President?

        10                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President, I

        11       am shocked by the question.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  So

        13       is the Chair.

        14                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator Dollinger,

        15       yesterday and the day before you saw Senator

        16       Bruno and Senator Skelos and others stand up and

        17       say that procedure in this house was very, very

        18       important and that bills shouldn't come out

        19       unless committee chairmen approve those bills,

        20       and you and I know that bills don't even come

        21       out even if approved by a committee chairman if

        22       the Republican Conference doesn't approve those

        23       bills.

        24                      So, Senator Dollinger, I want you

        25       to know that all of those expensive programs







                                                             
2740

         1       that took the budget of the state of New York

         2       and shot it through the ceiling had to have been

         3       approved and voted for by the Republican Party

         4       in this house under its rules, its customs, its

         5       history.

         6                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Again through

         7       you, Mr. Chair -- Mr. President.  Are you saying

         8       that none of those taxes originated through

         9       motions to discharge brought by the Democratic

        10       Minority?

        11                      SENATOR GOLD:  Not a one.

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Not a one.

        13       They all came from the other side.

        14                      SENATOR GOLD:  Not a one.

        15                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Thank you,

        16       Senator Gold.

        17                      Senator Gold, in his response -

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Senator Dollinger, are you speaking on the

        20       bill?

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Yes, Mr.

        22       President, on the bill.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        24       Senator Dollinger, on the bill.

        25                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Senator Gold,







                                                             
2741

         1       in his remarks, used a phrase that just brought

         2       something to mind.  He used that line that came

         3       from the King of Siam in the musical The King

         4       and I when he used the phrase, "et cetera, et

         5       cetera, et cetera", the line that was made

         6       famous by Yul Brynner.

         7                      Well, I guess I'm convinced,

         8       Senator Gold, on the basis of what you told me,

         9       that I would like to come up with another

        10       mystical illusion to another kingdom and

        11       frankly, Senator Gold, based on what you've told

        12       me, I'm convinced that I can only be one place

        13       today and that's in Shangri-la.  I must be in

        14       Shangri-la because I now get a chance to vote

        15       for tax cuts without spending cuts.  I get a

        16       chance to vote for something that may never come

        17       to pass, that's just an idealized fantasy that I

        18       would love to do, but I don't have to be

        19       responsible by pinpointing the cuts and services

        20       in education that would be required if we

        21       actually had to do something that was in

        22       reality, that if I was in Albany I would never

        23       do.  I would never vote for tax cuts unless I

        24       knew what the spending cuts were attached to

        25       them.  I wouldn't vote for tax cuts that would







                                                             
2742

         1       promise cuts in education, cuts in hospitals, as

         2       Senator Gold described.  I wouldn't do that if I

         3       were in Albany.  I'm in Shangri-la.  I must be

         4       representing a district from there.  I'm in

         5       Shangri-la.  I'm even tempted to vote yes.  In

         6       Shangri-la you can vote yes without

         7       responsibility.  It's the perfect place to be.

         8                      I thank Senator Bruno and his

         9       magic carpet for taking me there.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Senator Gentile.

        12                      SENATOR GENTILE:  I believe I

        13       have an amendment at the desk, Mr. President.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        15       amendment's at the desk.

        16                      SENATOR GENTILE:  I would ask

        17       that we waive the reading and allow me to

        18       explain the amendment.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:  The

        20       amendment is at the desk.  We will waive the

        21       reading.

        22                      Senator Gentile, on the

        23       amendment.

        24                      SENATOR GENTILE:  First of all,

        25       let me begin by saying with all the rancor and







                                                             
2743

         1       political division I've seen in the last two

         2       days here, it's refreshing to see that we

         3       started today with the passing of a bill of my

         4       freshman classmate and colleague, Senator Meier.

         5                      Mr. President, I want to

         6       personally congratulate Senator Meier on the

         7       passage of his first bill and I want to remind

         8       Senator Meier that this is his classmate's first

         9       amendment and -- in the New York State Senate

        10       and remind him that I voted in the affirmative

        11       on Senator Meier's first bill.  So after today's

        12       vote, may it be a day that Senator Meier and I

        13       can talk about for years to come.

        14                      You know, it is also -- so let me

        15       begin my explanation of my amendment by at least

        16       in a bipartisan way congratulating the Senate

        17       Majority for including in Senate 2-A the

        18       phase-out of the sales tax on clothing less than

        19       $500.

        20                      You know, I'm happy to see that

        21       we finally have gotten something on the floor

        22       that talks about the repeal of the sales tax on

        23       clothing, and it's the kind of -- it's the kind

        24       of economic relief, tax relief that will drive

        25       the economy in this state, something that I have







                                                             
2744

         1       been talking about -- I've talked about to

         2       repeal the sales tax for years.  I've said it -

         3       talked about it in my quest to become state

         4       Senator.  I've talked about it since my election

         5       to the state Senate, and I'm happy to say that

         6       my first bill that I introduced in this Senate

         7       was to repeal the sales tax permanently in this

         8       state, and I've done that because as an activist

         9       in my community, I've heard for years the pleas

        10       of business, to please keep New York shoppers

        11       here in this state and I've heard the pleas from

        12       New York consumers who say that if they had no

        13       tax in this state, they would do their shopping

        14       here.

        15                      So I'm glad to see at least now

        16       in the Senate 2-A, there's a version of the

        17       repeal of the sales tax, and I congratulate the

        18       Majority for finally realizing that this is

        19       something that needs to be put on the floor.

        20                      You know, there could be an

        21       argument made that I should be content that

        22       there's something in Senate 2-A about the repeal

        23       of the sales tax and go home and be happy.

        24       Well, you know, half a loaf might be good but

        25       the type of loaf that's being offered really







                                                             
2745

         1       doesn't -- doesn't effect what I want to effect

         2       and that's an increase in jobs, an increase in

         3       business in this state.  To trickle down these

         4       phasing out of the sales tax over a four-year

         5       period does not give the economic shot in the

         6       arm needed to create the jobs and keep the

         7       business and consumers here in New York State.

         8                      So I am an optimist and I want to

         9       turn on the economic faucet now, not in four

        10       years.  I want to repeal the sales tax now,

        11       repeal the entire sales tax all year long, 52

        12       weeks a year, no, nada, nothing now, and that is

        13       what my amendment will do, and I trust in this

        14       day of bipartisanship that we started with, that

        15       all members will lay aside their party label and

        16       really both be together, do something that New

        17       Yorkers want us to do.

        18                      What my amendment will do is

        19       repeal the sales tax on clothing and footwear

        20       less than $500 starting January 1st, 1998 and it

        21       will maintain the one-week back to school week

        22       that is in this Senate 2-A proposal for August

        23       of '97.

        24                      Also, the amendment does not

        25       change any of the Senate 2-A provisions that







                                                             
2746

         1       would give localities the option to repeal or

         2       reduce or phase out or even maintain their own

         3       local sales tax on clothing.  It gives my -- my

         4       amendment still gives localities the freedom to

         5       do what's best suited for them, just like Senate

         6       2-A, and it's interesting that in my area, for

         7       example, the mayor of the city of New York, I'm

         8       thrilled to be on the same side as the city of

         9       New York who said he would give -- he will use

        10       the power that we give him to repeal the four

        11       percent local sales tax.  And why not?  You

        12       know, it's time that we start to bring business

        13       back home today, not four years from now, bring

        14       it back home from the nearby states that have no

        15       sales tax in clothing that I believe, Mr.

        16       President, that Senator Bruno referred to and we

        17       don't need additional experimental weeks.

        18                      You know, New Yorkers welcomed

        19       the tax-free week with open arms and open

        20       wallets.  It was very successful on a cold week

        21       in mid-January.  In fact, in my area, the

        22       Brooklyn papers reported -- one of the Brooklyn

        23       papers reported that "I'm daunted by

        24       sub-freezing temperatures."  "Thousands of

        25       shoppers flocked to Bay Ridge to take advantage







                                                             
2747

         1       of the extraordinary one-week sales tax

         2       exemption on clothing."  That was a January

         3       report.

         4                      On Staten Island, in the Staten

         5       Island newspaper, The Advance, The Staten Island

         6       Advance reported that "the Staten Island Mall,

         7       whose stores were jammed with shoppers and

         8       parking lots overflowed with cars as if it were

         9       the week before Christmas, two streets leading

        10       to the mall, Forest Hill Road and Rockland

        11       Avenue were backed up to the intersection of

        12       Brielle Avenue.  That's a change from other

        13       weekends when many Staten Islanders trek over

        14       three bridges to shop in New Jersey which

        15       charges no sales tax on clothing every week of

        16       the year, not just one week."  That was from The

        17       Staten Island Advance.

        18                      Do you hear the pleas of the

        19       people?  Do you hear the pleas of the people to

        20       do it now -- to do it now and, you know, even

        21       other political leaders, other Republican

        22       leaders have jumped on board on this.  As I say,

        23       Republican Mayor Rudolph Giuliani has indicated

        24       that retail jumped 94 percent during tax-free

        25       week, Rudolph Giuliani, the mayor of the city of







                                                             
2748

         1       New York.

         2                      The Republican leader of Nassau

         3       County, Nassau County Executive Tom Gulotta,

         4       jumps on the bandwagon against clothing sales

         5       tax, Republican County Executive Tom Gulotta.

         6       Even pleas from the Republican Borough President

         7       of Staten Island, Guy Molinari.  Borough

         8       President Molinari has said "The Governor has

         9       talked about phasing it out", meaning the sales

        10       tax, "because he knows what a phenomenal success

        11       this tax-free week is", Borough President

        12       Molinari said yesterday, "but I'm going to tell

        13       him it should be abolished right now to give us

        14       the economic boost we need."  That is from the

        15       Republican Borough President from my area, Guy

        16       Molinari.

        17                      You know, I hate to think that

        18       these Republicans have gotten the message and we

        19       in Senate have not, but it's unfortunate that

        20       we're subjected to editorials that appear such

        21       as the one that appeared recently in the Daily

        22       News on March 13th concerning this issue and it

        23       troubles me when I see editorials of this type.

        24                      The editorial from the Daily

        25       News, a major New York paper, indicates "Albany







                                                             
2749

         1       put shoppers on the rack" and I'll read you a

         2       portion.  It says "A motto of the state Senate.

         3       Never do today what you can put off until

         4       tomorrow."  The latest example of the manana

         5       philosophy, repeal of the sales tax on

         6       clothing.  "Oh, the Senate Republicans like the

         7       idea but swiftness frightens them.  Instead of

         8       just killing the state's share of the tax

         9       outright, they urge a slow death, a four-year

        10       phase-out and more experiments with tax-free

        11       weeks.  What is this, a legislative body or the

        12       Food and Drug Administration?"  That's from the

        13       Daily News editorial of March 13th.

        14                      I don't know about you,

        15       colleagues, but it angers me when I hear that

        16       this grand institution is being called timid,

        17       that it is being called frightened.  I don't

        18       want this institution to be called timid or

        19       frightened and the answer to that is to repeal

        20       the sales tax now, starting January 1st of 1998

        21       and we still need the sales tax-free week in

        22       August for the back to school season this year.

        23       That's no change, as I said, from our provision

        24       of 2-A.

        25                      You know, just leaving the back







                                                             
2750

         1       to school week is not enough.  It leaves out too

         2       many consumers.  For example, back to school

         3       week leaves out the parents of small children.

         4                      You know, put the four percent

         5       sales tax in the pockets of the parents of small

         6       children because it's time to buy shoes for the

         7       baby.  It's time to buy baby's shoes, not only

         8       in January but in April and then in July and

         9       then in October.  It's time to buy baby's

        10       shoes.  It's time to buy the toddler new

        11       clothes, maybe three or four times a year and

        12       for those -- for those people, those seniors,

        13       those people who are more senior than you,

        14       people more senior than me, it's time to buy

        15       necessities for those seniors, whether it be a

        16       coat or shoes, whenever it's time to buy those

        17       necessities.

        18                      The point is that we can't limit

        19       the purchase times for these necessities.

        20       Clothing and footwear, as we all acknowledge,

        21       are not luxuries.  Besides food, clothing and

        22       footwear with basic for life and taxing basic

        23       necessities, I think we can all agree, are

        24       highly regressive and they hurt most of the

        25       hard-working families and the seniors that we







                                                             
2751

         1       all serve.  So why do we need to do that to

         2       them?  Let's give them the opportunity to have

         3       these necessities tax-free 52 weeks per year.

         4                      Take a minute now to look at the

         5       business side of this proposal and see how the

         6       S.2 plan, as proposed, is bad for business also.

         7       It's bad for business because the scattered

         8       sales tax-free weeks, the phase-in of the repeal

         9       over four years does little or nothing for

        10       business to attract shoppers to stay here in New

        11       York rather than go across to other states.

        12                      The small savings over a

        13       four-year period is not enough incentive for

        14       businesses to have the shot in the arm that they

        15       need and merchants know that.  Merchants know

        16       that money talks and customers walk.  Customers

        17       speak with their wallets.  We all know that and

        18       proof of that is only to look at the reaction of

        19       New Jersey merchants during the sales tax-free

        20       week back in January here in New York.  New

        21       Jersey merchants started to offer double back,

        22       80 percent off, paid parking, paid tolls to keep

        23       New Yorkers going to New Jersey and why not?  20

        24       to 40 percent of the New Jersey retail market

        25       depends on New York consumers.  So all you have







                                                             
2752

         1       to do is look at the New Jersey retail reaction

         2       and know how important it is that we have a

         3       sales tax-free week here in New York.

         4                      I guess, you know, sometimes we

         5       have to look to our other states to kind of wake

         6       us up, and I guess it was best said by a New

         7       Jersey mayor, Perth Amboy Mayor Joseph Voss, who

         8       put it this way about the sales tax-free week.

         9        "Perth Amboy Mayor Joseph Voss put the issue in

        10       perspective.  He said, "We don't have a sales

        11       tax on clothing ever", meaning New Jersey.  "I

        12       wish them", meaning New York, "I wish them the

        13       best of luck.  The taxpayers of New York deserve

        14       a break.  When is the New York government going

        15       to see the light of day?"  That's from a New

        16       Jersey mayor.

        17                      Now, we all agree -- and I think

        18       we can all agree that old habits die hard.  For

        19       my people in Brooklyn and in Staten Island, it's

        20       no different.  Old habits die hard.  It's too

        21       easy for them to revert to their old habits when

        22       tax-free week is over and go back to their

        23       shopping ways of the past.  For my people, it's

        24       easy.  They jump in the car, take a short hop

        25       across the bridge and all of a sudden they're in







                                                             
2753

         1       the shopping mecca, the sprawling malls that are

         2       known as tax-free New Jersey, the state of New

         3       Jersey, not New York.

         4                      For Staten Islanders, it's just

         5       as easy.  They hop over the Goethals Bridge, the

         6       Outer Bridge and in New Jersey in minutes and

         7       we've lost them.  We've lost them.  They're in

         8       New Jersey, and I'm sure that members here who

         9       represent areas near sales tax-free states like

        10       Connecticut and Pennsylvania have the same

        11       problem with constituents in their areas leaving

        12       New York to go to those sales tax-free areas.

        13       So it is bad for business to do this over a

        14       four-year period.

        15                      You know, this dilemma of

        16       consumers and merchants has been heard by some

        17       members here in the Senate.  It has been heard

        18       by some members of the Majority because several

        19       of you in the Majority have heard those pleas

        20       and you've introduced your own bills to repeal

        21       the sales tax in one form or another and to

        22       those members that Senators Marchi and Cook,

        23       Senators Goodman and Trunzo, Senators Holland

        24       and Present, to those Senators, I say Bravo,

        25       Bravo.  You heard the pleas and now I ask you to







                                                             
2754

         1       join me in making those pleas reality by voting

         2       for the amendment to S.2-A, the amendment that I

         3       call the four percent solution.  I call it that

         4       because it keeps our economic activity in our

         5       local communities right away not in four years.

         6       The advantage is New York's.  The cost to the

         7       state in the next fiscal year between January

         8       and April is 70- to $100 million, easily covered

         9       by the increase in economic activity, again,

        10       advantage New York.

        11                      You know, I have been on the

        12       campaign to repeal the sales tax over the last

        13       several months.  I've held tax sales repeal

        14       rallies.  I've had petitions signed.  I talked

        15       in the newspapers about the sales tax repeal and

        16       my constituents know very much about this

        17       proposal and these hard-working men and women of

        18       Brooklyn and Staten Island have asked me several

        19       times, "Senator, do you think we really can get

        20       this done on the floor of the Senate this year?

        21       Do you think we can really have this happen?

        22       This would be so great.  Do you think it will

        23       happen", and I say to them, I respond to them by

        24       saying, you know, at rare moments things can

        25       happen in dramatic fashion in this state.  So







                                                             
2755

         1       stay tuned.  This may be one of those moments,

         2       and I say to them that keep the faith, keep the

         3       hope.

         4                      Well, let's take that bold step

         5       today, ladies and gentlemen.  Let's not be

         6       labeled as timid as the Daily News has labeled

         7       us as timid.  If we act affirmatively, we do

         8       right for New York consumers.  We do right for

         9       merchants immediately, not four years from now.

        10       Let's show New Yorkers we can unite as a group,

        11       we can do it and do right for them.  Let this

        12       chamber show that as New Yorkers, we can pass

        13       bipartisan -- bipartisan progressive tax relief

        14       that we can be non-partisan when it comes to the

        15       good and welfare of New Yorkers.  Let this

        16       chamber show that the spirit -- we can come

        17       together, one and all, in support of this

        18       amendment and may this be one of those rare

        19       moments, colleagues, where dramatic things

        20       happen.  Let's pass this amendment.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  Any

        22       other Senator wishing to be heard on the

        23       amendment?

        24                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yes, Mr.

        25       President.







                                                             
2756

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Senator Gold.

         3                      SENATOR GOLD:  I promise to be

         4       brief, but I can't help, Mr. President,

         5       recalling something.

         6                      We, once a year, have a day,

         7       Senator Lombardi did it and I think now Senator

         8       Larkin does it, where we honor our wonderful

         9       young people at West Point and we make quite a

        10       to-do over them and we should.  If the one day

        11       that you see them here is not enough, right

        12       before Christmas each year, if you want to

        13       follow their bus from West Point to the Danbury

        14       Mall where they do their Christmas shopping, you

        15       can see these beautiful young faces for hours.

        16                      I happened to be there one

        17       Christmas with my children and walking around,

        18       as a tourist, Senator, and I was stunned.  West

        19       Point, New York -- and they don't take the bus

        20       to New York.  They don't take them to Exit 16

        21       where you've got a big outlet store.  They

        22       transport these people to Danbury, Connecticut

        23       to do all of their Christmas shopping.  If that

        24       is not a perfect example of why we should accept

        25       this amendment and how important it is, I don't







                                                             
2757

         1       know of any others.

         2                      I'm certainly going to support

         3       this amendment.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Bruno.

         6                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President, I

         7       just want to make a quick comment on this

         8       amendment, and I will just repeat what I said

         9       earlier.  You want to cut taxes, we want to cut

        10       taxes, and we will join you as long as you act

        11       responsibly.  What you're proposing, to

        12       eliminate 550 million -- and that's a low

        13       number.  It's anywhere from that number to 700

        14       million -- overnight is not responsible.

        15                      Mr. President, we phase out the

        16       sales tax in our package over a period of five

        17       years, doing something immediately and then

        18       phasing it out over five years.  If you do it in

        19       an irresponsible way, all you'll be doing is

        20       shifting the taxes to local property taxes.

        21                      Now, those of us that are in

        22       upstate New York will feel that, you're right,

        23       much more than you might downstate but the

        24       people downstate will also feel it because you

        25       have homeowners.  You have property owners and







                                                             
2758

         1       the revenue to support your local governments

         2       has to come from somewhere.  So we phase out our

         3       $2.5 billion package over a period of four, five

         4       years.  Mr. President, that's the responsible

         5       way to cut taxes.

         6                      Now, when we talk about spending

         7       or cutting -- I think one of my colleagues

         8       talked about spending these tax cuts, spending

         9       $5 billion.  We're not spending.  We're

        10       investing and there's a huge difference.

        11       Spending is when you pass a budget, as the

        12       Assembly has passed, that increases spending

        13       over $5 billion more than the Governor's

        14       budget.  That's spending in one year.  That is

        15       putting this state on the brink of bankruptcy.

        16       That is returning to the failed ways of the

        17       previous administration where we inherited a $5

        18       billion deficit when the new administration took

        19       over.

        20                      So let's tell it like it is.

        21       Let's posture for our constituencies, if that's

        22       what we have to do but let us act responsibly.

        23                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Senator Gold, why do you rise?







                                                             
2759

         1                      SENATOR GOLD:  Would Senator

         2       Bruno yield to what is really a short one

         3       question?

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Bruno, do you yield to Senator Gold?

         6                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Yes, Mr.

         7       President.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Senator Gold, he yields.

        10                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator Bruno, you

        11       said that the Assembly budget would bring us

        12       back to old ways and is irresponsible.  My only

        13       question, Senator, is where's our budget?

        14                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Our budget, Mr.

        15       President, is waiting on the Assembly to come

        16       down to the Governor and to us with a real

        17       revenue number.

        18                      We passed a law in this chamber

        19       that mandated us to have a consensus for

        20       revenues for this state by March 10th.  We have

        21       a revenue forecast.  The Governor has a revenue

        22       forecast done with the help of experts and the

        23       Assembly talks about a budget that spends $5

        24       billion.  That's why we don't have a budget.

        25       That's why there are no serious negotiations.







                                                             
2760

         1       That's why we don't have a budget until the

         2       Assembly recognizes that there is a limit on

         3       spending and we cannot spend ourselves back into

         4       the bankrupt ways of the past.

         5                      That's the long answer, Mr.

         6       President.

         7                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Senator Gold.

        10                      SENATOR GOLD:  I kept my word and

        11       it was a short question.  Maybe I could ask one

        12       other short question, if our Leader would yield.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        14       Senator, you're going to break your word and ask

        15       two questions.

        16                      SENATOR GOLD:  If our Leader

        17       would yield.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Senator Bruno, do you yield to Senator Gold?

        20                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Yes, Mr.

        21       President.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Senator Bruno yields.

        24                      SENATOR GOLD:  Senator, you have

        25       heard as much as I have heard members on your







                                                             
2761

         1       side put out bills which our side characterizes

         2       as one-house bills and your side says, Well, but

         3       now it's out there and now we can negotiate and,

         4       Senator, I don't know why that tactic is a

         5       tactic that seems to be good for smaller issues

         6       but not the budget.

         7                      Two years ago you put out a

         8       budget and criticized the Assembly for not

         9       having a budget.  So, Senator, if the Assembly

        10       is doing things that are not responsible and you

        11       say that this Senate has a revenue estimate,

        12       where is this Senate's budget so that the public

        13       can take a look at our budget, the Senate's

        14       budget, look at the Assembly budget and then put

        15       together what's going on here and compare it

        16       with the Governor's budget which everyone has

        17       rejected?

        18                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President,

        19       we've been there.  We've done that.  You voted

        20       against us last year when we did our one-house

        21       budget.  You voted against us the year before

        22       when we did our one-house budget and what did we

        23       accomplish, Mr. President?  Two of the latest

        24       budgets in the history of this state.

        25                      So we're easy, quick learners.







                                                             
2762

         1       So we have learned that one-house budgets don't

         2       work.  I would have thought that the Assembly

         3       might have learned that.  I might have thought

         4       that you might have learned that and, Senator

         5       Gold, when you voted against that budget last

         6       year and the year before, you were right.  It

         7       didn't work.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  On

         9       the amendment, those in favor signify by saying

        10       aye.

        11                      (Response of "Aye".)

        12                      Those opposed, nay.

        13                      (Response of "Nay".)

        14                      The amendment is defeated.

        15                      We're back on the bill.

        16                      Senator Connor.

        17                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Thank you, Mr.

        18       President.

        19                      If I may close for the Minority.

        20       Today the Senate will be doubling their work

        21       output on the current year's budget that's

        22       already late.  We did S.1 two weeks ago and now

        23       we take up a second disembodied one-house bill.

        24       Together these two bills cost more than $5

        25       billion over five years.  What Senator Bruno







                                                             
2763

         1       calls phasing in, we call backloading and,

         2       indeed, if one criticizes the Assembly for

         3       having some backloaded spending plans that also

         4       over the next four years or so add up to $5

         5       billion, I say why don't we deal, instead of

         6       worrying about backloading everything -- because

         7       these are really press releases -- backloading

         8       everything, why don't we deal with the budget

         9       with our job this year.  Let the Legislature

        10       that it's elected two or three years from now

        11       deal with the problems then and meet our

        12       responsibilities to have a budget that's already

        13       late?

        14                      The major difference between the

        15       two houses is that the Assembly had the courage

        16       to pass a budget, agree with it or not, and I

        17       remember two years ago when the second floor and

        18       this house -- and I think people even made up

        19       badges that said, "Where are your numbers,

        20       Shelly?  Where is your budget, Shelly" and

        21       heavily criticized in the late budget process,

        22       the post-April 1st time period which we're in

        23       now, the fact that the Assembly didn't do their

        24       budget, and there were calls for reform from

        25       this house, from the Majority in this house and







                                                             
2764

         1       from the Governor.  Well, the Assembly should do

         2       their budget.  The Senate's done their budget

         3       and we should have Conference Committees and

         4       this will solve -- this will solve what I

         5       believe it was Governor Pataki criticized as the

         6       three men in a room with a budget syndrome which

         7       the public of this state is, frankly, thoroughly

         8       disgusted with, and I dare say a large

         9       proportion of the members of the Legislature, if

        10       not publicly, privately agree, that there's good

        11       reason for disgust.

        12                      In this house, there's no known

        13       budget.  The Republican Majority here continues

        14       to fiddle while the budget is not done.  There's

        15       no known restoration for education or for health

        16       care from this Majority, none that we know.  We

        17       know what the Governor would do clearly.

        18       Clearly the Majority will not embrace and pass

        19       the Governor's budget.  They didn't do it last

        20       year.  We won't do it this year.  What's the

        21       plan?  What's the plan for education?  What's

        22       the plan for health care?  Tell us.  Bring it

        23       out here.  We may agree.  We may not agree but

        24       we'll vote on it.  That's why we're elected to

        25       be here and if it's different from what the







                                                             
2765

         1       Assembly views, have a Conference Committee.  We

         2       have very, very able members of this house who

         3       serve on the Finance Committee.  I'm sure we can

         4       put together a Conference Committee that would

         5       work this out in the light of day, with public

         6       comment, with public scrutiny.  Even the members

         7       will get to see what's going on before the 11th

         8       hour.

         9                      There's no balanced financial

        10       plan being offered by the Majority that says it

        11       leads this house.  There is no context for

        12       anything we're doing, no planning, no

        13       leadership, no budget.  I say to the Majority,

        14       where is your budget?  Where are your numbers?

        15       Why are we drifting aimlessly in this house?

        16       Where is the commitment to the Conference

        17       Committees, the new budget reforms which the

        18       Majority talked so loudly about in the last two

        19       years?  Why aren't we doing it?

        20                      Indeed, if I may digress, I was

        21       happy to hear Senator Bruno the day before

        22       yesterday saying to those tenants, Don't worry.

        23       In a couple of weeks, we'll bring out to the

        24       Senate floor the Majority's view of what rent

        25       regulations should be and then we'll have







                                                             
2766

         1       Conference Committees.  Do it.  I invite you in

         2       the next two or three weeks, Senator Bruno.

         3       Bring your plan for the tenants -- for the 2.8

         4       million tenants to the floor.  See if you can

         5       pass ending rent regulations on this floor and

         6       if you have 31 votes to do that, then we'll go

         7       to Conference Committee.  The Speaker has called

         8       for a Conference Committee on it but this house

         9       must act first and it must pass something that

        10       31 members agree to.

        11                      So I look forward to the Majority

        12       presenting their rent regulation bill and

        13       passing it on this floor -- yes.  Well, Senator

        14       Bruno, you said that you would have your bill.

        15       It would come out in a few weeks.  Bring it out

        16       and see if you can pass it.  See if you can pass

        17       it.  See if all those good Senators in the

        18       Majority will stick with you on that procedure

        19       and if you do pass what you want to do,

        20       conference it with the Assembly.  Put a

        21       Conference Committee together.

        22                      Similarly on the budget, make it

        23       happen now.  Make this new process happen.  Pass

        24       your budget.  It's already late, Senator.  It's

        25       already late.







                                                             
2767

         1                      When the current six-week

         2       extender expires, we'll be moving into the

         3       period when school budgets are planned and

         4       passed.  Once again, school districts will have

         5       to borrow and once again the Majority won't even

         6       acknowledge the liability for the interest

         7       costs.  Go back to, I believe it was

         8       Washingtonville where they tried to send us all

         9       a bill and tell them we've done it again and the

        10       Senate didn't even pass a one-house budget this

        11       time.

        12                      Why is he so determined to convey

        13       to Wall Street that we deserve the second lowest

        14       bond rating in the nation, because of our

        15       inability to have the political and fiscal will

        16       to do the responsible thing and have a real

        17       budget process, and I tell you, I took heart two

        18       years ago when this Majority passed their one

        19       house and they threw stones for weeks at the

        20       Assembly for not acting and then we came back

        21       the next year and I thought, you know, this is

        22       going to work.  It's going to suddenly be that

        23       politically -- politically, each house will have

        24       to pass its view of the budget and then we'll

        25       have Conference Committees and the public will







                                                             
2768

         1       see the light of day on at least a little bit of

         2       what we do here.

         3                      Instead the Majority here takes

         4       three giant steps backwards and won't even do a

         5       budget bill, won't even do a budget, a real

         6       budget.  Instead we get more and more and, Mr.

         7       President, as to the numbers, the Assembly's

         8       one-house budget provides two billion more in

         9       revenues.  They have a revenue number and it

        10       moves, what we call move money.  It transfers $1

        11       billion in spending and it restores a billion

        12       and a half in cuts and provides a half a billion

        13       dollars for tax cuts.

        14                      The Republicans say this is three

        15       billion more in spending?  Well, the Assembly

        16       tells us where the revenues are.  They tell us

        17       what money they'll transfer and what they'll

        18       give as tax cuts.  That's a budget.

        19                      Where is our budget?  Instead,

        20       no, S.1, S.2, press releases.  The Majority,

        21       they're for tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts and we

        22       all know in the dark of night, three men in a

        23       room with a budget, this Majority, year after

        24       year after year has driven spending through the

        25       ceilings.  That's what's really happening.  Talk







                                                             
2769

         1       tax cuts, talk tax cuts, spend, spend, spend.

         2       That's what's happened in this house and we all

         3       know it.

         4                      The fact is, Mr. President, I

         5       call upon the Majority while we're here, while

         6       we're late, pass your budget and have an open

         7       process.

         8                      Now, Mr. President, on the

         9       current bill, the current bill is chock full of

        10       apple pie, motherhood.  It's a press release.

        11       It's a press release that says you want tax

        12       cuts.  You don't tell us how you'll pay for it.

        13       You backload it.  Some future Legislature will

        14       have to worry about the fiscal impacts but, Mr.

        15       President -- Mr. President, I wasn't born

        16       yesterday politically.  I don't vote against

        17       popular press releases.  I wish we were voting

        18       on a real budget with a real fiscal plan.  That

        19       would be the responsible thing to do but, Mr.

        20       President, I say to the Majority, you're -- you

        21       claim the responsibility of running this house.

        22       I urge you to be responsible.  When you put out

        23       press releases to catch the headlines about tax

        24       cuts, I'm not going to try and stand in the way

        25       of that kind of gimmickry.







                                                             
2770

         1                      The other day, we heard Senator

         2       Bruno characterize a very serious motion to

         3       discharge which would have relieved the fear and

         4       anxiety of 2.8 million tenants in New York as

         5       posturing, as a political game.  Well, Mr.

         6       President, I can't imagine what's more of a

         7       political game than billions of dollars in tax

         8       cuts that some day may be kicked in, backloaded

         9       for three or four years, but if those are the

        10       kind of games we want to play here, I'm for tax

        11       cuts too, Mr. President.  Tax cuts are great.

        12       You'll never get me saying I'm not for tax cuts.

        13                      Thank you.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Senator Stafford.

        16                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Mr. President,

        17       I'll be -- before our Leader continues his

        18       excellent presentation and closes debate -- and

        19       I mean excellent presentation -- I'm going to be

        20       a bit historical and make maybe a broad stroke

        21       with a conceptual brush.

        22                      I'm reminded of the 1990 -- no,

        23       1966 transit strike.  I wouldn't say anything

        24       like this, of course, but I'm reminded of this.

        25       Somebody on that side of the aisle was ranting







                                                             
2771

         1       and raving and got so frustrated -- his name was

         2       Tommy.  I won't tell you who it is, but if you

         3       looked up in '66, you'll figure out who probably

         4       it was and he pointed at one of us on the other

         5       side of the aisle and he said, "You know

         6       something?  I hope you never get near a window

         7       because if you do, you slip out, you'll go up."

         8       I wouldn't say that, of course, but I want you

         9       to know that I thought about it after listening

        10       to some of this nonsense -- excuse me -- that I

        11       have been listening to the past three -- leave

        12       it at three -- three days.  If it hurts a

        13       little, it is meant to.

        14                      Get with it.  There isn't one

        15       person in here who isn't a political animal,

        16       your speaker included, probably more so than

        17       others, but some of the things I've seen and

        18       listened to the last two, three days have made

        19       me realize why the electorate sometimes has the

        20       opinion of some of us they do.

        21                      I was told before I stood up,

        22       don't offend anyone.  I said I won't.

        23                      SENATOR GOLD:  Not everyone.

        24                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  You got it.

        25       You got it.







                                                             
2772

         1                      Mr. President, we had a great

         2       locomotive in this state, our economic

         3       locomotive, but every locomotive has to have

         4       engines and the engines of the economic

         5       locomotive here in this state are jobs that our

         6       Leader has talked about, done something about

         7       with Governor Pataki.

         8                      Governor Pataki, Senator Bruno,

         9       the Senate and, yes, the Assembly -- and, yes,

        10       the Assembly have turned us around.  I'm going

        11       to be a little bipartisan here -- just a little,

        12       but you know exactly -- not too much, but there

        13       was a governor before Governor Carey took over.

        14       This gentleman, many others supported that

        15       governor and he was a great governor but

        16       mistakes have been made.  We all realized that

        17       and we started a trend.  I'm trying to get the

        18       year right now.  1960 -- 59.  I think we had one

        19       of the biggest tax increases that this state and

        20       this nation, frankly, percentagewise, had ever

        21       been passed.

        22                      I supported that person.  I

        23       supported him afterwards.  I would have

        24       supported him for President and it's too bad he

        25       wasn't President because this country would have







                                                             
2773

         1       been a lot better off, in my opinion.  That's

         2       only my opinion, but you know what?  We started

         3       a trend there and it never stopped and we had

         4       both parties involved.  We had both parties

         5       involved.  We had -- in 1965, we had one party

         6       in control.  1966, this house was taken over by

         7       one party.  The other house stayed over there

         8       with another party and we all kept moving.  We

         9       all kept going but we kept going up, up, up and

        10       we were putting the state down the drain.

        11                      Now, I don't mean some of the

        12       things we were spending on weren't good.  They

        13       were.  You can smirk, but if you think back a

        14       few minutes, you'll realize a lot of what we

        15       were doing was good but we were putting this

        16       state down the drain because people were leaving

        17       and all of our districts that were involved in

        18       business, they were leaving, my district, your

        19       district, every district and practically anybody

        20       you talked to in business, they would say, we

        21       can't do business in this state and we laugh,

        22       all of us, both parties.

        23                      Then in 1990... I'm going to get

        24       the date right -- in 1994, the people of this

        25       state said, yes, we are going in the wrong







                                                             
2774

         1       direction.  We are spending too much, spending

         2       on some good things, mind you, on a lot of good

         3       things and very, very frankly, I was right there

         4       wanting to spend on a lot of good things, but

         5       you know what?  If we hadn't turned around with

         6       Governor Pataki, with Senator Bruno and we

         7       hadn't had the budgets and had the legislation

         8       that passed in the last two years, that state

         9       was going down the drain and if you don't

        10       believe it, all you got to look -- again, the

        11       numbers, the 550,000 jobs within the last few

        12       years that we lost, 165 jobs we increased.  We

        13       can debate the numbers but we all know the trend

        14       is going the right way now.  4-, $5 billion

        15       budget deficits -- I'm not saying that deficits,

        16       maybe you couldn't argue that they were spent on

        17       good things, but you can say it would be great

        18       if we could have an education system where we

        19       had one teacher for every student.  I know I

        20       needed it but you can't do it.  It doesn't make

        21       sense economically and some of the things we

        22       have done in the past, not 20 years, the past 36

        23       years, 38 years, some of the things we were

        24       doing didn't make any more sense economically

        25       than having a teacher for every student in the







                                                             
2775

         1       state.  We made some tough, tough decisions.

         2       We've made some tough decisions and we finally

         3       got the locomotive moving.

         4                      I'm old enough to remember when

         5       you ran down to the track to see the locomotive

         6       running, I remember the first time the diesel

         7       engine came to Dannemora -- I was on the outside

         8       -- and it was quite a day, quite a day to see

         9       that diesel engine -- or see that diesel

        10       locomotive with all those engines going, but

        11       we're finally increasing the engines, the number

        12       of engines that we have to get this locomotive

        13       going and, frankly, I think everyone, all of us,

        14       we're not going to agree on everything, but we

        15       have to compliment our Majority Leader, our

        16       Governor and, again, with the budgets we've had

        17       the last couple of years, it's been with the

        18       Assembly.

        19                      Now, I have often said here

        20       sometimes one man's floor is another man's

        21       ceiling.  Unless we realize there's a ceiling to

        22       what we spend and not do what's being done over

        23       there right now -- and, yes, I'm being direct,

        24       but they're getting back to the magic number, $5

        25       billion, $6 billion, if you really looked at it







                                                             
2776

         1       more than we're taking in.  We can't spend more

         2       than we take in and unless we stop trying to

         3       take in as much, we're going to get right back

         4       on that other track and start going again and I

         5       use these terms because I think it's right, down

         6       the drain.

         7                      Mr. President, our Leader has

         8       explained it well, but I have to say that this

         9       state is now -- eighth was mentioned -

        10       increasing jobs right now.  We did reduce taxes

        11       more than all the states combined in the nation

        12       last year and this state is going to be better

        13       and we're going to get healthy.  We're going to

        14       be the Empire State and in conclusion, let me

        15       emphasize this, something I said to the people

        16       in the Education Department the other day.

        17                      You know, sometimes all of us, we

        18       forget this.  We had the best educational system

        19       of this state before the administration over

        20       there right now and we'll have the best after

        21       they leave, and we can go -- even though the

        22       problems we had and where we were going

        23       economically, unless we turned it around, we

        24       still had the Empire State but it's this

        25       legislation which has been explained so well by







                                                             
2777

         1       the Leader, Senator Bruno.  It's this

         2       legislation which is going to keep this state

         3       the Empire State and make it a better Empire

         4       State.

         5                      Thank you, Mr. President.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         7       Senator Bruno, to close for the Majority.

         8                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Thank you, Mr.

         9       President.

        10                      Our very experienced senior only

        11       in the years that he serves here in the Senate,

        12       I think, has done an outstanding job of summing

        13       up what our discussion has been about, where we

        14       have been and where we're going, and I thank him

        15       for that.  Thank you, Senator Stafford.

        16                      I am not going to belabor to

        17       close.  I'm just going to answer very directly

        18       the Minority Leader when he talks about doing

        19       one-house budgets, going to Conference

        20       Committees.  Maybe you weren't listening,

        21       Senator.  We passed one-house budgets last

        22       year.  We passed them the year before and we

        23       broke the records for late budgets in this

        24       state.  So we're not going to do that again, but

        25       we will pass a budget in this state when the







                                                             
2778

         1       Assembly understands that we will not, in this

         2       house, agree to spend ourselves back into the

         3       bankrupt ways of the Cuomo administration -

         4       bankrupt.

         5                      When Governor Pataki took over,

         6       this state was bankrupt, a $5 billion deficit by

         7       overspending, overtaxing, over-regulating.  I am

         8       embarrassed, Mr. President, when I hear my

         9       colleagues on this side of the aisle talk about

        10       returning to those failed ways of the past.  You

        11       want to return?  You want to be there?  I don't.

        12                      We're going to go forward.  We've

        13       left that behind us, thanks to the good Lord and

        14       the intelligence of the majority of the voters

        15       in this state who had enough.  They spoke out.

        16       They said we have had enough of 12 years of

        17       Democrats spending us into bankruptcy and they

        18       made a change and the change has been a

        19       worthwhile, fruitful change because now we've

        20       recovered our posture in this state.  We are

        21       taking a leadership position and we've done it

        22       by being responsible.

        23                      So we'll be responsible.  The law

        24       of this state says that by March 10th, we will

        25       agree on a revenue number available for spending







                                                             
2779

         1       in the budget number.  The Governor and we can

         2       agree.  The Assembly will not agree.  Their

         3       answer has been to pass a budget that spends 5

         4       to $6 billion more than the Governor feels is

         5       available.

         6                      Now, how do you do that?  Now, we

         7       would love to join, if we wanted to be

         8       irresponsible, with the other side and throw $1

         9       billion into this restoration or program, $1

        10       billion into this one, a half a billion here.

        11       You need two billion here.  We all love to do

        12       that when we're grandstanding, when we're

        13       posturing.  We are not going to do that on this

        14       side of the aisle.  We'll leave that to you, if

        15       you want to follow the lead of spending this

        16       state back into bankruptcy but since we have a

        17       Governor that is responsible, that's providing

        18       the leadership, that's holding the line on

        19       spending, that's leading the country in cutting

        20       taxes, we're going to stay with the Governor.

        21       We're going to be responsible and we're going to

        22       go forward.  So we won't agree on a budget until

        23       we get a revenue number.  I don't know how on

        24       earth anyone in your families, in your

        25       businesses, in your professions, how you agree







                                                             
2780

         1       on a budget if you don't know what revenue is

         2       coming in.  How do you do a budget?

         3                      So, Mr. President, we're waiting

         4       for something responsible to come out of the

         5       discussions, out of maybe this debate and then

         6       we will go forward, but this package before us,

         7       I urge everyone in this chamber to support

         8       because it is a phase-out of a tax package over

         9       five years.  It helps the people of this state

        10       enjoy an improved quality of life and that's

        11       what we're all elected to do.

        12                      Thank you, Mr. President.

        13                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Mr. President.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Senator Connor.

        16                      SENATOR CONNOR:  I listened very

        17       carefully to Senator Bruno and I'm delighted,

        18       and I think perhaps -

        19                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Can we close

        20       debate?

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        22       Senator Connor, you closed for the Minority.

        23       Senator Bruno closed.  If you wish to explain

        24       your vote -

        25                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Yes, I do.







                                                             
2781

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: -

         2       we'll let you do that when we call the -

         3                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Read the last

         4       section.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       Last section read, please.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Sections 101

         8       through 104 of this act shall take effect June

         9       1st, 1997.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Call the roll.

        12                      (The Secretary called the roll.)

        13                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Mr. President.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Senator Connor, to explain his vote.

        16                      SENATOR CONNOR:  Thank you, Mr.

        17       President.

        18                      I am delighted.  I just heard

        19       good news here.  It may move the process

        20       forward.  For the first time I heard Senator

        21       Bruno say, we can agree with the Governor on a

        22       number.

        23                      Mr. President, if Senator Bruno

        24       would tell us what the number is that he's

        25       agreed -- that the Majority's agreed with on the







                                                             
2782

         1       Governor for revenue, I'll be happy to go -- use

         2       my good offices and go across the Capitol and

         3       sit with the Speaker and see if we can get

         4       negotiations going, but I would like to know

         5       what is that number, Mr. President?  What is the

         6       number the Majority can agree with the Governor

         7       on as to revenues?  It's the first I've heard

         8       they have the same number.  I think it's big

         9       news for everybody here in Albany and I would

        10       like to hear it.  I would like to see next week

        11       the Majority's, based on that number, they can

        12       agree with on the Governor, the Majority put out

        13       their one-house budget and we'll move this

        14       process along and maybe May 1st can be the magic

        15       date.

        16                      Thank you, Mr. President.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Announce the results.

        19                      SENATOR CONNOR:  I vote aye, Mr.

        20       President.

        21                      SENATOR GOLD:  Mr. President.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Senator Gold, to explain his vote.

        24                      SENATOR GOLD:  Yes.  Mr.

        25       President, I understand that my Leader has just







                                                             
2783

         1       voted yes and a lot of the colleagues on this

         2       side I think will vote yes on this bill and take

         3       the opportunity to do the same public statement

         4       as the Majority.

         5                      I, on the other hand, Mr.

         6       President, think I have a little different

         7       responsibility.  I, first of all, thank Senator

         8       Stafford.

         9                      Senator Stafford, every once in a

        10       while, Senator Stafford, in your humor you get

        11       serious and I want to be serious.  I thought the

        12       statement you made today was one of the best

        13       statements you've made today, Senator, and I

        14       appreciate the fact that you said "we" because a

        15       lot of people on your side cringe at the thought

        16       that they could have done something that they

        17       might think is wrong and have to admit it at

        18       some point.  You have my admiration, Senator

        19       Stafford, for that statement.

        20                      But the bottom line here is that

        21       the Assembly is being criticized for supposedly

        22       spending $5 billion more but the Senate will not

        23       criticize itself for putting in tax bills which,

        24       if you add them up, are the same $5 billion and

        25       my feeling is that some of the words that come







                                                             
2784

         1       from our distinguished Leader don't make sense.

         2                      We talk about the leadership of

         3       Governor Pataki for two years, three years and

         4       yet the fact is that Senator DeFrancisco said in

         5       response to my question, he would not vote for

         6       the Governor's budget.  Senator Bruno last year

         7       would not put out the Governor's budget.

         8       Senator Bruno this year will not put out the

         9       Governor's budget.  That's not leadership.  It's

        10       rejection.  That's what it is.  It's rejection.

        11                      If you want to say that the

        12       Governor's budget is a starting point, you don't

        13       have to tell me that.  By constitutional

        14       mandate, the Governor must file a budget but

        15       hopefully it's a serious budget.  Hopefully it's

        16       a budget that shows leadership.  If it's

        17       rejected by his own party, why do you say it's

        18       leadership?

        19                      Last year when you did put out a

        20       budget in this house, you overspent the

        21       Governor's budget by, I think over $1 billion.

        22       When you finally agreed with the Governor and

        23       the Assembly on a budget, that was about, I

        24       think 900 million more than the Governor.

        25                      So we haven't accepted any







                                                             
2785

         1       leadership from this Governor.  The Governor put

         2       in a budget which we know is terrible.  It would

         3       hurt school children, et cetera, et cetera, et

         4       cetera, and we reject it.  So where's the

         5       leadership?  Where are the on time budgets?

         6       There is no leadership.  I will

         7       tell -

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Senator Gold, two minutes to explain your vote

        10       is -

        11                      SENATOR GOLD:  It's getting near.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       It's there, sir.

        14                      SENATOR GOLD:  Thank you.

        15                      I would just say that Dan Walsh

        16       and the Business Council are sophisticated

        17       people.  I will vote for tax cuts when I see a

        18       total budget.  I think I am doing a disservice

        19       to the opportunity I have been given by my party

        20       to be the ranking on Finance and when I see a

        21       total budget, I will embrace tax cuts or

        22       whatever else is part of a total plan.

        23                      I vote no.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Announce the results -- Senator Stavisky to







                                                             
2786

         1       explain.  Oh, he wants to vote no.

         2                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Announce the

         3       results.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Hoffmann, to explain her vote.

         6                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  I am delighted

         7       to vote on a tax cut package.  I just wished

         8       that I was not being forced to vote in a vacuum

         9       on a disembodied piece of legislation that has

        10       absolutely no meaning outside the paper that

        11       it's printed on for distribution to the press.

        12                      As a member of the Finance

        13       Committee, I wish that we could sit and reason

        14       together as intelligent men and women with the

        15       responsibility with which we are empowered and

        16       come up with the numbers that would make some

        17       sense to the people at home.

        18                      It is terribly frustrating to try

        19       to return to Central New York to the three

        20       county district that I represent and explain to

        21       people that it's a Republican proposal or a

        22       Democratic proposal because the people in

        23       Central New York -- maybe this is not true for

        24       the rest of the state but at least in Central

        25       New York, the people there do not think as







                                                             
2787

         1       Republicans or Democrats when they sit down to

         2       do their household finances and they do not

         3       think about Republican and Democratic theology

         4       and bean counting when they are putting together

         5       school district budgets.

         6                      This past week I met with eight

         7       different school superintendents, all of whom

         8       explained in careful detail how there is real

         9       pain for their school districts, real pain

        10       measured in dollars and cents and human

        11       suffering because of our failure to negotiate

        12       and enact a budget in a timely fashion.

        13                      This maneuver today does not

        14       bring us one step closer to having a real budget

        15       in a timely manner and it once again creates a

        16       question of our credibility and our ability to

        17       function in the job to which we are elected.  We

        18       bring ourselves perilously close to major revolt

        19       by the taxpayers of this state by this time of

        20       posturing and grandstanding.

        21                      I noted in the paper today that

        22       there's a wonderful picture of Senator Bruno and

        23       I'm pleased to see that Senator Bruno is

        24       characterized riding a horse and showing his

        25       relationship with the land.  As an upstater, as







                                                             
2788

         1       someone who owns horses of her own, I'm pleased

         2       that we have leadership in this house that

         3       understands the whole sum of the state or at

         4       least a portion of the state that's sometimes

         5       ignored but what forum do we have where we can

         6       bring these disparate parts of the state

         7       together for some reason?

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Senator Hoffmann.

        10                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Must we

        11       lambast each other in this type of partisan

        12       charade.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  How

        14       do you vote?

        15                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  I vote aye.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Announce the results, please.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 54, nays 2,

        19       Senator Gold and Stavisky recorded in the

        20       negative.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        22       bill is passed.

        23                      Senator, we have no other

        24       housekeeping.

        25                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Is there







                                                             
2789

         1       housekeeping at the desk, Mr. President?

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         3       There is none.

         4                      SENATOR BRUNO:  There being no

         5       further business to come before the Senate -

         6                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Excuse me,

         7       Mr. Majority Leader.  I would like to register a

         8       negative vote.

         9                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Senator Montgomery will be counted in the

        12       negative.

        13                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Mr.

        14       President, I would like to have unanimous

        15       consent to be recorded in the negative on

        16       Calendars Number 307 and 491.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Without objection.

        19                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Thank you.

        20                      Senator Bruno -- Senator Mendez.

        21                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Mr. President,

        22       I'm requesting unanimous consent to be recorded

        23       in the negative on Bill Number 307.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Without objection.







                                                             
2790

         1                      SENATOR MENDEZ:  Thank you.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         3       Senator Bruno.

         4                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  We

         6       have no housekeeping and the calendar is over,

         7       sir.

         8                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President,

         9       there being no further business to come before

        10       the Senate, I would move that we stand adjourned

        11       until Monday at 3:00 p.m., intervening days to

        12       be legislative days.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        14       Senate will stand adjourned until Monday, April

        15       14th, at 3:00 p.m., intervening days to be

        16       legislative days.

        17                      (Whereupon, at 12:47 p.m., the

        18       Senate adjourned.)

        19

        20

        21

        22

        23

        24

        25