Regular Session - April 16, 1997

                                                                 
3027

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         9                       ALBANY,  NEW YORK

        10                         April 16, 1997

        11                           11:02 a.m.

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        14                       REGULAR SESSION

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        18       SENATOR CARL L. MARCELLINO, Acting President

        19       STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary

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         1                      P R O C E E D I N G S

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

         3       Senate will come to order.  Ask everyone present

         4       if you will please rise and repeat with me the

         5       Pledge of Allegiance.

         6                      (The assemblage repeated the

         7       Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. )

         8                      In the absence of clergy, may we

         9       have a moment of silence, please.

        10                      (A moment of silence was

        11       observed. )

        12                      Have the reading of the Journal.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  In Senate,

        14       Tuesday, April 15th.  The Senate met pursuant to

        15       adjournment.  The Journal of Monday, April 14th,

        16       was read and approved.  On motion, Senate

        17       adjourned.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Without objection, the Journal stands approved

        20       as read.

        21                      Presentation of petitions.

        22                      Messages from the Assembly.

        23                      Messages from the Governor.

        24                      Reports of standing committees.

        25                      Reports of select committees.







                                                             
3029

         1                      Communications and reports from

         2       state officers.

         3                      Motions and resolutions.  The

         4       Chair recognizes Senator Tully.

         5                      SENATOR TULLY:  Thank you, Mr.

         6       President.  On behalf of Senator Lack, please

         7       place a sponsor's star on Calendar Number 516.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  A

         9       sponsor's star will be placed on Calendar Number

        10       516.

        11                      Senator Bruno.

        12                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President, I

        13       believe there is a privileged resolution by

        14       Senator DeFrancisco.  I would ask that the title

        15       be read and that we move for its immediate

        16       adoption.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Secretary will read.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

        20       DeFrancisco, Legislative Resolution Number 1051,

        21       honoring the students of the International

        22       Relations Club and 2-D Art Classes at Corcoran

        23       High School, Syracuse, for their participation

        24       in the 49th Senate District Good News!  Good

        25       Kids!  Youth Responsibility Program.







                                                             
3030

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Senator DeFrancisco.

         3                      SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:  I'm pleased

         4       to have the students from the Corcoran High

         5       School present here today to honor them by the

         6       Senate passing this resolution.

         7                      As many of you know, we have a

         8       program in Onondaga County called the Good News!

         9       Good Kids!  program.  Unfortunately, nowadays we

        10       oftentimes only hear about the negative things

        11       that students do.  Well, this program recognizes

        12       good works of students in our community and, in

        13       this case, the Corcoran High School has

        14       participated for several years in a program that

        15       recognizes and tries to help people in an

        16       international setting.  They raise money and in

        17       the course of raising money, they provide good

        18       works throughout the world actually, and in this

        19       case, this year they raised $10,000 to fund a

        20       medicinal herbal garden for the people of Mali,

        21       which is a task that is sort of interesting to

        22       think that high school students would be in that

        23       situation to think about foreign students -

        24       foreigners in this type of fashion, raising

        25       money and also participating in activities such







                                                             
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         1       as this.

         2                      They have done other projects in

         3       the past as well, and I just want to be here to

         4       recognize each and every one of them and to let

         5       people in our community know that we do have

         6       good students and good people doing the right

         7       things, and they should be recognized, and I

         8       salute all of you for your fine work.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        10       Thank you, Senator.

        11                      We have a vote on the

        12       resolution.  All in favor of the resolution

        13       signify by saying aye.

        14                      (Response of "Aye.")

        15                      Those opposed nay.

        16                      (There was no response. )

        17                      The ayes have it and the

        18       resolution is passed.

        19                      Senator Bruno, with your

        20       permission, we have the chaplain from the United

        21       States Military Academy who will share the

        22       invocation with us.

        23                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Thank you, Mr.

        24       President.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                             
3032

         1       Thank you.

         2                      CHAPLAIN FRITTS:  Would you

         3       please join me in prayer.

         4                      Our Heavenly Father, as we gather

         5       today to recognize the United States Military

         6       Academy, we first of all recognize You as the

         7       source of all good things.  Praise God from Whom

         8       all blessings flow.  Our Father, thank You for

         9       our great nation, for our freedom and

        10       prosperity.  Thank You, Lord, for all who lead

        11       our nation and for all who serve as leaders of

        12       this great state.  Thank You for our Military

        13       Academy.  May we all continue to prove ourselves

        14       true to our mission and faithful in our

        15       calling.  By Your grace enable us to show

        16       ourselves worthy of whatever honors we receive

        17       and, in Your great goodness, bless us and make

        18       us a blessing.  We pray all this in Your holy

        19       name.  Amen.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       Thank you very much.

        22                      Senator Bruno.

        23                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President, I

        24       believe we have a privileged resolution at the

        25       desk.  I would like to ask that it be read in







                                                             
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         1       its entirety, and call on Senator Larkin.

         2                      Thank you, Mr. President.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Secretary will read Privileged Resolution 1049,

         5       by Senator Larkin.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

         7       Larkin, Legislative Resolution Number 1049,

         8       memorializing Governor George E. Pataki to

         9       proclaim April 16, 1997 as West Point Day in New

        10       York State.

        11                      WHEREAS, this legislative body is

        12       justly proud to celebrate the establishment of

        13       the United States Military Academy at West Point

        14       and to call upon Governor George E. Pataki to

        15       proclaim April 16, 1997 as West Point Day in New

        16       York State, and

        17                      WHEREAS, by an act of Congress on

        18       March 16, 1802, the United States Military

        19       Academy was established within the borders of

        20       New York State on the banks of the Hudson River;

        21       and

        22                      WHEREAS, the Academy and its

        23       graduates are an integral part of the proud

        24       history of this state and nation; and

        25                      WHEREAS, the leadership and







                                                             
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         1       sacrifices of the members of the Long Grey Line

         2       have helped this country withstand countless

         3       threats to our cherished democratic way of life;

         4                      Alumni have excelled not only on

         5       the battlefield but in many fields of endeavor;

         6                      The Academy continues to provide

         7       our country with able and dedicated future

         8       leaders;

         9                      Its scenic campus is a mecca each

        10       year for thousands of visitors from across the

        11       state, continent and other countries;

        12                      The United States Military

        13       Academy is in the forefront of our state's

        14       outstanding institutions of higher learning;

        15       and

        16                      WHEREAS, 46 years ago the late

        17       James T. McNamara, then a member of the New York

        18       State Assembly and a member of the Academy's

        19       class of 1939, was the author of the state

        20       Legislature's first West Point Day Resolution,

        21       and

        22                      WHEREAS, for decades our nation

        23       has enjoyed the legacy of freedom and the United

        24       States Military Academy at West Point has played

        25       a vitally significant role in the maintenance of







                                                             
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         1       peace and freedom, and

         2                      WHEREAS, the members of this

         3       legislative body are equally as proud to

         4       commemorate this event marking April 16th, 1997

         5       as West Point Day in New York State,

         6                      NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED,

         7       that this legislative body pause in its

         8       deliberations to celebrate the establishment of

         9       the United States Military Academy at West Point

        10       and to memorialize Governor George E. Pataki to

        11       proclaim April 16, 1997 as West Point Day in New

        12       York State, and

        13                      BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that a

        14       copy of this resolution, suitably engrossed, be

        15       transmitted to Governor George E. Pataki.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        17       Chair recognizes Senator Larkin.

        18                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Joe?

        19                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President,

        20       Senator Larkin, for the moment, is deferring to

        21       me, and I thank you for that.

        22                      I want to add just a welcome to

        23       General Daniel Christman, who has joined us here

        24       with these cadets from West Point.  We are

        25       privileged, and we are honored to have you







                                                             
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         1       here.  General Christman is an example for all

         2       the cadets, for all of us, as a person that we

         3       can all look to in major accomplishments in his

         4       life.  Not enough that he gets to be a general

         5       in the United States Army out of West Point, he

         6       has a Master's in civil engineering, in public

         7       affairs, I believe from Princeton, and he has a

         8       law degree, George Washington University -

         9       academically very impressive.  But what is most

        10       impressive is that he followed, as many of these

        11       cadets will, Generals like Patton, Pershing,

        12       MacArthur, Eisenhower, Schwartzkopf, who have

        13       distinguished themselves as representatives of

        14       the free world throughout the world.

        15                      So, General, we are honored to

        16       have you here and we respect your leadership on

        17       behalf of all the people of New York State and

        18       the United States, and the example, the

        19       leadership, that you provide to the candidates,

        20       the cadets that are with you who will some day,

        21       one of which may be addressed as General, has

        22       accomplished.

        23                      I want to just take this moment

        24       to also welcome and congratulate Bryan Campbell,

        25       Cadet who is here who is a constituent of mine,







                                                             
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         1       and, General, thank you very much for that, and

         2       General Traub is here.  And, General, would you

         3       stand up? This gentleman is the class of '28.

         4                      (Applause).

         5                      Looks as if he's jogging about

         6       ten miles a day and still lifting about 210.

         7                      So we welcome you all here.  We

         8       truly are honored, and I would like now, Mr.

         9       President, to defer to our very distinguished

        10       Senator, Colonel Larkin.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Colonel.

        13                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Thank you, Mr.

        14       President.

        15                      It is my honor and privilege to

        16       offer before this house the resolution that you

        17       heard read recognizing the United States

        18       Military Academy at West Point.  I am proud to

        19       continue in the process that started with a

        20       member of the class of 1939 this resolution.

        21                      I would like to again extend a

        22       personal welcome to General Dan Christman, the

        23       class of 1965, and his staff and members, the

        24       West Point Society.

        25                      You know, 195 years ago, West







                                                             
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         1       Point was chosen to be the home of the Academy.

         2       When you think of who's gone there and what they

         3       did in their life, Grant, Lee, Eisenhower,

         4       Patton, Schwartzkopf, these leaders share in a

         5       knowledge that you will, as you go forward not

         6       only strengthen the military, but you strengthen

         7       the nation and you provide the people of our

         8       country with pride and joy because you are the

         9       most proud, you are the exceptional, you are

        10       screened across the nation and we only accept

        11       for service academies the best, the brightest

        12       and those who will carry forward.

        13                      When General -- at that time,

        14       excuse me, Colonel Sylvanus Thayer became

        15       superintendent at West Point, he was an engineer

        16       officer and, you know, it was funny because for

        17       a long time he stressed the fact that engineers

        18       should be the only persons chosen to be the

        19       superintendent, but his actions were in two

        20       phases.  He wanted to strengthen the academic

        21       and he wanted to strengthen the courage and

        22       commitment.  He was highly decorated, well

        23       respected.

        24                      So when you look at today's

        25       position, 195 years later, when you think we are







                                                             
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         1       now back to where Sylvanus Thayer was we haven't

         2       missed a superintendent, General Christman, who

         3       is an engineer officer.

         4                      General Christman has served in

         5       combat in Vietnam; he's had combat engineers,

         6       served as an adviser to two chairmen of the

         7       Joint Chiefs of Staff.  I think one of the

         8       things that we look at today is, we have an

         9       Academy here that most of us look at and say,

        10       you know, West Point is a beautiful place and

        11       many of us visit there.  As a matter of fact,

        12       General, I've heard that some people want to

        13       come out and be environmentalists and check the

        14       grass on the new golf course.  I don't know

        15       about that.

        16                      I'd like to have the cadets, as I

        17       introduce you, to please stand.

        18                      First of all, the distinguished

        19       Superintendent of the United States Military

        20       Academy, an individual I call a friend, the

        21       class of 1965, General Dan Christman.

        22                      (Applause)

        23                      We're also very fortunate to have

        24       here today with us the Brigade First Captain,

        25       Deputy -- he won a promotion too quick I see -







                                                             
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         1       Leticia Gasdick from California.  (Applause)

         2                      Cadet Bryan Campbell, from my

         3       home town, Troy, New York.  (Applause)

         4                      Cadet Kristen Carlson, from

         5       Staten Island. (Applause)

         6                      Cadet Douglas Chapman, from Great

         7       Valley.  (Applause)

         8                      Cadet Aaron Coombs, from

         9       Addison.  (Applause)

        10                      Cadet Sean Kilbride, from Garden

        11       City.  (Applause)

        12                      Cadet Jeramie D. Fitzgerald, from

        13       Amherst.  (Applause)

        14                      Cadet Kirsten Krucker, from

        15       Suffern.  (Applause)

        16                      Cadet Jaimie Leonard, from

        17       Warwick.  (Applause)

        18                      Cadet James Nati from Pine City.

        19       (Applause)

        20                      Cadet Stephen Rubright, from New

        21       York City.  (Applause)

        22                      Cadet Allison Saunders, from New

        23       York City.  (Applause)

        24                      Cadet Paul Voelke, from my

        25       district, Monroe, New York.  (Applause)







                                                             
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         1                      Cadet Marie Elizabeth Wolff, from

         2       Queens.  (Applause)

         3                      Cadet Vasiliki Zorbas, from Bay

         4       Side.

         5                      SENATOR GOLD:  That's Queens

         6       too.

         7                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Today's cadets,

         8       as you view them, represent the bright young

         9       people that will lead our nation.  We have with

        10       us here today first team as we call them.  I

        11       don't know how many corps we got here, I don't

        12       know, you tell them at lunchtime about it but,

        13       Mr. President, we must realize that the

        14       challenges faced by today's corps of cadets are

        15       vastly different than those encountered by many

        16       of their predecessors.

        17                      Today's second lieutenants must

        18       know how to move troops and equipment in hours

        19       not like it used to take many of us leaders, in

        20       months.  The cadets sitting here today will be

        21       asked to serve their nation in Bosnia, Congo,

        22       Europe, the Far East.

        23                      Today's Army serves not only

        24       abroad but here at home, Mr. President. I must

        25       report that I'm especially fortunate to







                                                             
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         1       represent the region that bears witness every

         2       day to what West Point means, not just in our

         3       economics.

         4                      Every day you can see something

         5       happening at West Point that has to do with the

         6       quality of life in the Hudson Valley.  West

         7       Point is not an island within New York State.

         8       The Long Grey Line participates not only in our

         9       economy but in the hearts and souls of our

        10       community.  The corps brings its daily life to

        11       our citizens, whether it's in education,

        12       scouting, clean-up, religion, education,

        13       training kids from inner cities, they're there

        14       day in and day out.

        15                      Duty, honor -- excuse me, honor,

        16       duty and country and a concern for others, Mr.

        17       President.  It is upon this bedrock of values

        18       that each Cadet will build his or her career.

        19       It is an unchanging standard that we in New York

        20       must strive to embody.  It is upon this bedrock

        21       that the future leaders of the United States

        22       Army will lead soldiers into harm's way if

        23       necessary to preserve the freedom on which our

        24       nation is founded.

        25                      We owe a debt of gratitude to the







                                                             
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         1       United States Military Academy for bestowing on

         2       the state of New York all that is good in our

         3       nation.  We thank General Christman, his faculty

         4       and staff and the corps of cadets for continuing

         5       to build on the bedrock that was started on

         6       these shores of the Hudson almost two centuries

         7       ago.

         8                      Thank you very much.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        10       We're on the resolution. All in favor signify by

        11       saying aye.

        12                      (Response of "Aye.")

        13                      All opposed nay.

        14                      (There was no response. )

        15                      The resolution is passed

        16       unanimously, and the Chair would like to take

        17       this opportunity to welcome the commander and

        18       the cadets of the Academy.  We wish you well,

        19       wish you long life, good health and Godspeed.

        20                      (Applause)

        21                      Senator Larkin, would you like to

        22       open this resolution up to the entire house?

        23                      SENATOR LARKIN:  I most certainly

        24       will.  I think it's a privilege, and I would ask

        25       that everyone join with me because in signing







                                                             
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         1       onto this resolution, you're also saying we

         2       thank you for being here and for serving our

         3       country.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  We

         5       will open it up to the entire chamber.  Anyone

         6       who wishes not to be on it, please notify us.

         7       Otherwise everybody will be placed on this

         8       resolution.

         9                      SENATOR BRUNO:  I would at this

        10       time ask for a Rules Committee meeting in Room

        11       328.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       There will be an immediate meeting of the Rules

        14       Committee in Room 328, an immediate meeting of

        15       the Rules Committee in Room 328.

        16                      Senator Bruno.

        17                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President, I

        18       believe there is another privileged resolution

        19       at the desk, by Senator Larkin.  I would ask

        20       that the title be read and move for its

        21       immediate adoption.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  We

        23       will move Resolution 1050, by Senator Larkin.

        24       The Secretary will read the title.

        25                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator







                                                             
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         1       Larkin, Legislative Resolution Number 1050,

         2       honoring Edward D. Miller upon the occasion of

         3       his retirement after 38 years of dedicated

         4       service to the Chase Manhattan Corporation.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       Question is on the resolution. All in favor

         7       signify by saying aye.

         8                      (Response of "Aye.")

         9                      All opposed nay.

        10                      (There was no response. )

        11                      The resolution is passed.

        12                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President, I

        13       believe there is a resolution at the desk, by

        14       Senator Rath.  I would ask that its title be

        15       read, move for its immediate adoption.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Secretary will read the resolution by Senator

        18       Rath.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator Rath,

        20       Legislative Resolution commemorating the 150th

        21       Anniversary of Temple Beth El of Greater

        22       Buffalo, New York.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        24       Chair recognizes Senator Rath. Excuse me. If we

        25       could please have some order in the chamber.  I







                                                             
3046

         1       thank you.

         2                      Senator Rath.

         3                      SENATOR RATH:  Mr. President, I'd

         4       like to move for immediate approval.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       Question is on the resolution.  All in favor

         7       signify by saying aye.

         8                      (Response of "Aye.")

         9                      All opposed nay.

        10                      (There was no response. )

        11                      The resolution is passed.

        12                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Mr. President, I

        13       believe there is another resolution at the desk

        14       by Senator Smith.  I would ask its title be read

        15       and move for its immediate adoption.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Secretary will read Resolution 1052, by Senator

        18       Smith.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator Smith,

        20       Legislative Resolution Number 1052 commemorating

        21       the 25th Anniversary of the Rockaway Revue,

        22       Inc.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        24       Question is on the resolution.  All in favor

        25       signify by saying aye.







                                                             
3047

         1                      (Response of "Aye.")

         2                      All opposed nay.

         3                      (There was no response. )

         4                      The ayes have it.  The resolution

         5       is passed.

         6                      Senator Bruno, we have a

         7       substitution at the desk.  Can we take care of

         8       that?

         9                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Yes, please do,

        10       Mr. President.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Secretary will read.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 5,

        14       Senator Maltese moves to discharge from the

        15       Committee on -- excuse me, the Committee on

        16       Consumer Protection Assembly Bill Number 3627,

        17       and substitute it for the identical Third

        18       Reading Calendar 607.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       Substitution is made.

        21                      Senator Bruno, we are at the

        22       non-controversial calendar.

        23                      SENATOR BRUNO:  I believe we're

        24       ready at this time, Mr. President, for the non

        25       controversial calendar.







                                                             
3048

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Secretary will read.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  On page number

         4       22, Calendar Number 318, by Senator DeFrancisco,

         5       Senate Print 1939, an act to amend the Parks,

         6       Recreation and Historic Preservation Law, in

         7       relation to requiring operators.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Read the last section.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        11       act shall take effect on the 1st day of April.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       Call the roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 48, nays 2,

        16       Senators Kuhl and Maltese recorded in the

        17       negative.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        19       bill is passed.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        21       363, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 722, an act

        22       to amend the Executive Law, in relation to

        23       reports by registered charitable organizations.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Read the last section.







                                                             
3049

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         2       act shall take effect in 90 days.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Call the roll.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

         8       bill is passed.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       449, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3456, an

        11       act to enact the Criminal Procedure Law Reform

        12       Act of 1997.

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside,

        14       please.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  Lay

        16       the bill aside.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       455, by member of the Assembly DiNapoli,

        19       Assembly Print 5299, an act to amend the

        20       Environmental Conservation Law, in relation to

        21       the definition of a public body.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Read the last section.

        24                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        25       act shall take effect immediately.







                                                             
3050

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Call the roll.

         3                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

         6       bill is passed.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         8       458, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 3511-A, an

         9       act authorizing the State University of New York

        10       to lease and contract for the design.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Read the last section.

        13                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Is there a

        14       message at the desk?

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       There is a message of necessity at the desk.

        17                      SENATOR BRUNO:  I ask the message

        18       be read at this time.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       Read the message.  Move to accept the message.

        21       All in favor signify by saying aye.

        22                      (Response of "Aye.")

        23                      Opposed nay.

        24                      (There was no response. )

        25                      The message is accepted.







                                                             
3051

         1                      Read the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 5.  This

         3       act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Call the roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

         9       bill is passed.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        11       468, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 3883, an

        12       act to repeal Section 4227 of the Insurance Law,

        13       relating to limitations on new business.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Read the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Call the roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        23       bill is passed.

        24                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        25       470, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 4012, an act







                                                             
3052

         1       to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

         2       making various technical corrections.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Read the last section.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 16.  This

         6       act shall take effect immediately.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         8       Call the roll.

         9                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 50.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        12       bill is passed.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       520, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3791-A.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       Excuse me.  Gentlemen, ladies, if we could have

        17       some order in the house it would be a big help

        18       up here.  Thank you.  I'm sorry.

        19                      Continue, please.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  An act to amend

        21       the Surrogate's Court Procedure Act, in relation

        22       to the advance payment of fees of a guardian ad

        23       litem.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Read the last section.







                                                             
3053

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

         2       act shall take effect immediately.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Call the roll.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

         8       bill is passed.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        10       528, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 3641, an act

        11       to amend the Real Property Tax Law, and the Real

        12       Property Law, in relation to taxation of

        13       converted condominium units.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Read the last section.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.  This

        17       act shall take effect immediately.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Call the roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        23       bill is passed.

        24                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        25       530, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 4054, an act







                                                             
3054

         1       to amend the Village Law, in relation to making

         2       technical changes.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Read the last section.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         6       act shall take effect on the same date as such

         7       chapter.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Call the roll.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        13       bill is passed.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        15       592, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 4421-A, an

        16       act to provide a retirement incentive for

        17       certain public employees.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Read the last section.

        20                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Is there a

        21       message at the desk?

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       There is a message of necessity at the desk.

        24                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Move its

        25       acceptance.







                                                             
3055

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Move

         2       the approval of the message of necessity.  All

         3       in favor say aye.

         4                      (Response of "Aye.")

         5                      Opposed nay.

         6                      (There was no response.)

         7                      The ayes have it.  The message is

         8       approved.  Read the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2. This

        10       act shall take effect immediately.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Call the roll.

        13                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 51.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        16       bill is passed.

        17                      Senator Bruno, that completes the

        18       controver... the non-controversial calendar.

        19                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Can we at this

        20       time, Mr. President, return to the order of

        21       standing committees.  I believe there is a

        22       report from the Rules Committee at the desk.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        24       Secretary will read the report of the Rules

        25       Committee.







                                                             
3056

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Bruno,

         2       from the Committee on Rules, reports the

         3       following bill direct to third reading:  Senate

         4       Print 4119-A, by Senator Velella, an act to

         5       amend the Insurance Law.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         7       This bill needs a message.  Without objection,

         8       we'll move it to the Third Reading Calendar.

         9                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Lay it aside

        10       until the message arrives, Mr. President.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  Lay

        12       the bill aside until we get a message.

        13                      Senator Meier, why do you rise?

        14                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President, I

        15       ask unanimous consent to be recorded in the

        16       negative on Calendar 318.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Without objection.

        19                      Senator Seward.

        20                      SENATOR SEWARD:  Yes, Mr.

        21       President.  I'd like to place a sponsor's star

        22       on Calendar Number 404.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  A

        24       sponsor's star will be placed on Calendar Number

        25       404 at the request of Senator Seward.







                                                             
3057

         1                      SENATOR SEWARD:  Thank you.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         3       Senator Bruno, may we take up the controversial

         4       calendar, please.

         5                      SENATOR BRUNO:  Can we at this

         6       time, Mr. President, take up the controversial

         7       calendar.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Thank you, sir.  Secretary will read Calendar

        10       Number 449, Senate Bill Number 3456.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 28,

        12       Calendar Number 449, by Senator Volker, Senate

        13       Print 3456, an act to enact the Criminal

        14       Procedure Reform Act of 1997.

        15                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Explanation.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Senator Volker, an explanation has been

        18       requested.

        19                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Mr. President,

        20       this is a bill that passed this house

        21       unanimously the last two years and passed also,

        22       a piece of this passed as part of the Criminal

        23       Justice Omnibus Act of 1996, which did not pass

        24       unanimously and was voted on 47 to 12 by this

        25       house.







                                                             
3058

         1                      What this bill involves is that

         2        -- it's a comparatively small bill; that is, it

         3       is only a three-page bill -- but in all honesty

         4       it does have some wide repercussions in dealing

         5       with, again, a problem that has been occurring,

         6       in all honesty, on a regular basis in this state

         7       involving the Court of Appeals and the Appellate

         8       Division reinterpreting the law in this state

         9       and the Constitution, superseding rulings that

        10       have been in place for many, many, many years,

        11       allowing criminals to go free in cases that can

        12       only be termed as hypertechnical rulings that

        13       allow, in effect, clearly guilty defendants to

        14       go free.

        15                      On this floor here earlier this

        16       week, we discussed another bill and the saying

        17       was that people were frightened that somehow

        18       this was going to create some sort of havoc in

        19       the criminal justice system.  I can assure you

        20       that some of the rulings that are being, in

        21       effect, changed in this bill involve cases that

        22       have created havoc in the criminal justice

        23       system, and I suspect very strongly it's partly

        24       because the Court of Appeals doesn't completely

        25       understand what has been occurring out in the







                                                             
3059

         1       streets of this state, and to a certain extent

         2       throughout this country.

         3                      Now, there are a series of

         4       changes that are involved here, but let me just

         5       quickly get through them because I went through

         6       pages of this sort of thing and ironically

         7       though they come down to two very specific

         8       areas.

         9                      One area involves the case called

        10       the Ranghele case which is a case that threw out

        11       and has thrown out a number of murder cases,

        12       frankly, as well as other felony cases, and they

        13       relate to the failure to produce pre-trial

        14       statements and by no means, by the way, does

        15       this bill dramatically change that ruling except

        16       what happened here is that the Ranghele case

        17       basically said, even if the failure to produce a

        18       pre-trial statement as regards a witness did not

        19       prejudice the defendant or, in fact, was done

        20       inadvertently that after the entire proceeding

        21       was done the courts went back and threw the

        22       whole proceeding out, the whole trial, because

        23       of the fact that the technical rulings of the

        24       law were not specifically followed.

        25                      In the O'Dougherty case, that







                                                             
3060

         1       case involves a section of the law that says

         2       that within 15 days or 15 days prior to the

         3       arraignment, the prosecutor must offer to the

         4       defense the -- his intent to offer statements of

         5       identification evidence, or confessions by the

         6       defendant.

         7                      In a number of cases, the

         8       prosecutor, in fact, was not even aware of some

         9       evidence that later came up either during the

        10       trial or afterwards and the prosecutor did

        11       inform the defendant -- the defendant, of

        12       course, already knew about it because the

        13       defendant was involved in the statements and in

        14       the identification -- a number of cases were

        15       thrown out on that basis.

        16                      What this bill would say is that

        17       the prosecutor must give the defendant

        18       reasonable time to review such confessions or

        19       whatever is involved, and if necessary adjourn

        20       the case to give the defense their opportunity

        21       to make sure that the defendant is given his

        22       proper -- proper due.

        23                      Another section of the law that

        24       has been, I think, probably one of the most

        25       abused by the courts, and I hate to say this but







                                                             
3061

         1       I think it's a fact, was a famous case here in

         2       New York which is called People vs. Ricks and

         3       Mack, in which prior to the trial and during the

         4       process of picking a jury the defendant had been

         5       present, but the defense attorney left the

         6       defense to the defendant, to leave the room.  In

         7       fact, a lot of defense attorneys would rather

         8       not have the defendants there for the entire

         9       process.

        10                      In any case, two jurors went

        11       before the judge and said that they had read

        12       some pre-trial publicity and, therefore, didn't

        13       feel that they should be jurors. The two were

        14       dismissed as jurors.  The defense attorney did

        15       not object to the fact that the defendant wasn't

        16       there.  After the whole trial was over, it was

        17       used as a means of overturning the entire

        18       decision in the murder case.

        19                      What this bill would say is and

        20       would allow the right to be present at all

        21       stages of the proceeding is absolutely essential

        22       and is sacred but that, if the defense attorney

        23       himself, his own -- the person who makes the

        24       decision doesn't object, doesn't ask that the

        25       defendant be there explicitly, doesn't bring up







                                                             
3062

         1       any kind of objection, and there's no showing of

         2       any prejudice -- in this case there was no

         3       showing of any prejudice because the jurors were

         4       dismissed -- then the trial can obviously

         5       proceed and that can't be used as a means of

         6       dismissing the case.

         7                      Another major piece of this would

         8       be in identification testimony, and I think this

         9       particularly applies to New York City.  There

        10       have been a number of cases where there have

        11       been line-ups and there have been identifica

        12       tions by witnesses. By the time the trial comes

        13       up, it's years later, two things could occur.

        14       One, the defendant very often looks tremendously

        15       different, and one of the reasons he looks

        16       tremendously different is by deliberation -- by

        17       deliberate -- deliberate attempt to do so.

        18                      The second thing is it's so long

        19       in the future that the witness may not actually

        20       recognize that person from the time that he

        21       actually identified -- he or she identified him

        22       in the line-up, so the other -- by the way, the

        23       other thing is, and this happens in some of the

        24       mob trials, there's threats against the

        25       witnesses who are now not really willing to







                                                             
3063

         1       identify the person because they're afraid, by

         2       intimidation.

         3                      All this would say is that it

         4       would allow the introduction of evidence by the

         5       law enforcement people that that person did

         6       identify the defendant as the perpetrator of the

         7       crime during a line-up or in a statement or

         8       whatever.  Of course, the defendant has the

         9       right to make all sorts of objections and bring

        10       in any kinds of evidence he can to still object

        11       to that identification, but the idea here is

        12       that -- is not to set the situation up that is

        13       so super-technical that, in effect, the

        14       defendant can use some sort of vehicle to get

        15       out of a conviction even though he's guilty.

        16                      So basically, and there are a

        17       couple of other provisions, one relating to

        18       preclusion orders.  There has been a very

        19       technical decision made that says that the

        20       prosecutor can appeal a suppression motion but

        21       can't appeal a -- an order, a pre-trial order

        22       precluding evidence.  It's not in the law; it's

        23       just that by court decision this kind of

        24       situation has occurred and has allowed clearly

        25       guilty defendants to be able to escape justice.







                                                             
3064

         1                      So this is a series -- what this

         2       sets up is a series of situations where the

         3       defendant is not by any means necessarily

         4       prejudiced but allows the trial to move ahead

         5       without the technical violations that have been

         6       created by court statute, and I think levels the

         7       playing field in a whole series of these cases.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Senator Waldon.

        10                      SENATOR WALDON:  Senator Volker

        11       yield to a question?

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       Senator Volker, do you yield to Senator Waldon?

        14       He yields.

        15                      SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you very

        16       much, Mr. President.  Thank you, Senator

        17       Volker.  Senator, the history of this bill is

        18       that it was passed in our house.  Is there a

        19       history of its passing in the Assembly?

        20                      SENATOR VOLKER:  No, although

        21       pieces of this bill -- the omnibus act of last

        22       year which passed this house, pieces of that

        23       bill did pass, and in fact in last year's -- a

        24       couple of last year's criminal justice bills

        25       there was some pieces of the bill that was part







                                                             
3065

         1       of the Procedure Act of last year, but this bill

         2       as such, no, you're right, did not pass the

         3       Assembly.

         4                      SENATOR WALDON:  Would the

         5       gentleman yield to another question?

         6                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Certainly.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  He

         8       yields.  Before you do, Senator Waldon, please,

         9       can we have some quiet and can we keep the door

        10       over there closed so we don't hear the noise

        11       from the outside.  I appreciate that.

        12                      Senator Waldon.

        13                      SENATOR WALDON:  Senator Volker,

        14       it is my understanding that the meaning of the

        15       Ranghele decision is that the party who is best

        16       able to produce witness statements and to locate

        17       and provide evidence regarding the trial is duty

        18       bound to do so.  Wouldn't this proposal that you

        19       are submitting for our consideration remove the

        20       burden from the prosecution which could be

        21       perhaps characterized as encouraging

        22       prosecutorial misconduct?

        23                      SENATOR VOLKER:  No, I don't

        24       think so at all.  In fact, I -- I know so.  We

        25       still -- the Ranghele case, well, I explained it







                                                             
3066

         1       to reporters and I know you understand it very

         2       well.  This bill does not take away the

         3       obligation of the prosecutor to provide or to

         4       produce pre-trial statements of the witnesses.

         5                      The problem has been that in a

         6       number of cases, the prosecutor was not aware of

         7       the pre-trial statements until the trial is in

         8       motion or until and, in fact, after the trial is

         9       over.  Then the question becomes, since it was

        10       not through negligence of the prosecutor and in

        11       particular, while the trial is in motion, the

        12       prosecutor then provides those statements to the

        13       defense attorney and gives the defense attorney

        14       whatever is necessary for him to be able to

        15       prepare his -- to continue to prepare his case,

        16       and remember that this would be -- this is the

        17       judicial decision would allow the judge to see

        18       it.  If the judge says, Look, you should have

        19       known, and/or it did prejudice the defendant

        20       then the case is going to be thrown out.

        21                      There's nothing in this bill that

        22       would not allow that.  It's just that we're

        23       changing -- in effect, changing the super

        24       technical interpretation that Ranghele -- the

        25       Ranghele case has developed over the years that







                                                             
3067

         1       basically said that any kind of omission by the

         2       prosecutor, even if inadvertent and even though

         3       he tries to remedy it, as soon as he is aware of

         4       it, is grounds for throwing the case out

         5       entirely.

         6                      SENATOR WALDON:  Would the

         7       gentleman -- Mr. President, would the gentleman

         8       yield again?

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        10       Senator, do you yield?

        11                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  He

        13       yields, Senator.

        14                      SENATOR WALDON:  Senator Volker,

        15       I'm listening very carefully to what you're

        16       saying, and it appears that what you're saying,

        17       to my ear, all prosecutors would, under all

        18       circumstances, without reservation turn over all

        19       evidence to the defense side, but it is my

        20       understanding that that has not been the

        21       history.

        22                      Part of it is that our judicial

        23       proceeding is a very adversarial process, and

        24       people like to win and when one wants to win,

        25       sometimes one takes undue advantage of the other







                                                             
3068

         1       and, again, it is my understanding that Ranghele

         2       makes it a duty of the prosecutor to turn over

         3       the evidence, and this would remove that duty.

         4                      Am I still unclear following your

         5       explanation?

         6                      SENATOR VOLKER:  The duty to turn

         7       over the statements is, in fact, there before

         8       Ranghele.  Ranghele -- what the Ranghele case

         9       stood for is an extension of that duty to the

        10       point where any kind of omission or any kind of,

        11       for instance, in some cases the pre-trial

        12       statements were statements that really had

        13       nothing to do with the -- ultimately with the

        14       resolution of the case and were so minor that

        15       the district attorney was not even aware that

        16       they were there.

        17                      Now, to answer your question, by

        18       the way, would all prosecutors be totally

        19       diligent?  Probably not.  I think that's true,

        20       and that's why this would not overrule their

        21       duty.  They still have the duty to turn over the

        22       statement, and they have the duty to do it as

        23       soon as they become aware of it and if, after

        24       the trial is over, it's found that they should

        25       have been aware of it and they weren't, or they







                                                             
3069

         1       didn't turn over the statements, this -- this

         2       provision would not -- would not change the fact

         3       that a judge could certainly throw that case out

         4       just as it is under Ranghele now.

         5                      What we're trying to do is give

         6       the option where it was a very honest omission

         7       and where there was no really prejudice to the

         8       case, the determination of no necessarily lack

         9       of prejudice, that case could still go on.

        10                      SENATOR WALDON:  Mr. President,

        11       would the gentleman yield once again?

        12                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Sure.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        14       Senator yields, Senator Waldon.

        15                      SENATOR WALDON:  Senator Volker,

        16       earlier when you were explaining the bill, if I

        17       recall correctly, you mentioned something about

        18       the police officers giving witness

        19       identification -

        20                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Right.

        21                      SENATOR WALDON:  -- testimony,

        22       but under what you're proposing now, wouldn't it

        23       change the obligation of the police officer?

        24       Wouldn't it allow the police officer greater

        25       latitude in presenting evidence on the trial or







                                                             
3070

         1       at the trial that before this time if this were

         2       to become law, would be excluded?

         3                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Not really.  The

         4       only thing that it would do is, on the issue,

         5       and I know you're aware of it, the technical

         6       nature, and we discussed this at the committee

         7       just the other day, the technical nature of

         8       line-ups and pre-trial identification and all

         9       that sort of thing.  What this would do is to

        10       cause the possibility that, in certain cases,

        11       that testimony could be given as to the fact

        12       that the witness who may be -- may not want to

        13       testify for, maybe because of coercion or

        14       because of the years that have gone by since the

        15       case -- since the incident happened, may be

        16       unable to identify that person because of a

        17       change in the person's features, and so forth,

        18       but was able to identify that person clearly in

        19       line-ups earlier, that the law enforcement

        20       officer can testify only that person did

        21       identify the defendant, the person in this case

        22       as the person who -- who was identified.

        23                      Interesting thing about that is

        24       it was suggested to me there's a reverse to

        25       that.  It could also be used, by the way,







                                                             
3071

         1       against the prosecution because you could

         2       potentially have a police officer put on the

         3       stand to say that that person's identification

         4       at the time was of somebody else in the first

         5       instance which I think maybe some people didn't

         6       think of, which actually could fall on the

         7       defense side because right now that would never

         8       happen.

         9                      SENATOR WALDON:  Would the

        10       gentleman yield again, Mr. President?

        11                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Certainly.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  He

        13       yields, sir.

        14                      SENATOR WALDON:  I appreciate

        15       your patience, Senator Volker.

        16                      Not related to this proposal but

        17       related to this proposal, last year and this

        18       year, is it your recollection that the Governor

        19       has moved to, with a sharp knife, cut away those

        20       monies that traditionally were in the budget for

        21       defendants' rights for the legal aid and/or

        22       defense counsel for those who are imprisoned or

        23       who are arrested and who are indigent to be able

        24       to defend themselves while at the same time -

        25       while at the very same pregnant moment, putting







                                                             
3072

         1       extremely large sums of money on the

         2       prosecutorial side of the budget.

         3                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Senator, I must

         4       be honest with you. As you know I am, try to be

         5       honest.  Two years ago I asked the budget

         6       director if there was somewhat of a mistake in

         7       the budget because all the funds for prosecution

         8       and defense had been initially eliminated.

         9       Later some of the funds were restored.  The

        10       answer is that there were cuts in both the

        11       prosecution and the defense. In fact, that has

        12       occurred this year.  This year there hasn't been

        13       as much cutting on the prosecution side as on

        14       the defense side, that's true, but as you well

        15       know, the Legislature restored virtually all the

        16       money on the defense side, so I think the answer

        17       is, although there were some cuts in the -

        18       certainly cuts in the defense, there were also

        19       cuts in the prosecution over the last two years

        20       also.

        21                      SENATOR WALDON:  If I may

        22       continue, Mr. President, would the gentleman

        23       continue to yield?

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Senator, do you continue to yield?







                                                             
3073

         1                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Certainly.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  He

         3       continues to yield.

         4                      SENATOR WALDON:  Senator Volker,

         5       I will trust the advice that I have received.

         6       It may not be accurate, and I will share it with

         7       you and please correct me if you know better

         8       than the advice I have received.  It is my

         9       understanding from my advisers that the ratio of

        10       money that Governor Pataki recommended to us,

        11       prosecution side or defense side, previous

        12       budget was 60-40.  This year it is 80-20, and in

        13       previous lines there was greater equity.

        14                      Certainly those who are unable to

        15       afford defense in the history of this country

        16       have been afforded every opportunity to defend

        17       themselves.  Part of the reason that this nation

        18       was created was that people were running from

        19       the booted heel of those who were in charge and

        20       who were the authority and who, with complete

        21       abandon, foisted their will on those who were

        22       less able to -- than themselves to assume power,

        23       but not going back that far as to when the

        24       nation was founded, just talking about the last

        25       couple of years.







                                                             
3074

         1                      Is it your understanding that

         2       that is the approximate ratio of the money put

         3       on the prosecutors' side versus the defenders'

         4       side?

         5                      SENATOR VOLKER:  You're

         6       absolutely right, Senator, the 60-40; I don't

         7       know about the 80-20 but let me just point out

         8       to you something that is not generally known

         9       although that 60-40 ratio is the ratio that this

        10       Legislature -- Republicans, Democrats, Assembly,

        11       Senate -- has generally used as far as direct

        12       state money; there is a lot of other money that

        13       goes to the defense side, in fact from local

        14       governments as well as areas such as IOLA, which

        15       is not figured into it, which is a fund that

        16       comes from attorney accounts and a lot of that

        17       money, most of that money, in fact goes to

        18       defense -- defense people.  So there is a lot of

        19       ways in which -- and that's one of the ways for

        20       the establishment of the 60-40, that I often

        21       said that there's no -- there's no fund around

        22       to support the death penalty but there's big

        23       money opposing it and always has been from the

        24       private sector and from the local public sector

        25       and from all sorts of foundations.







                                                             
3075

         1                      You're right that this year the

         2       initial Governor's budget has cut back from the

         3       60-40, I don't know if it's 80-20, you may be

         4       accurate.  I don't know, but before this session

         5       is over, Senator, I would predict that this

         6       ratio would end up generally about what it was

         7       in the past.

         8                      SENATOR WALDON:  Would the

         9       gentleman continue to yield, Mr. President?

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Senator Volker, you continue to yield?

        12                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes.

        13                      SENATOR WALDON:  Senator Volker,

        14       let me thank you for this colloquy. You and I

        15       serve on the same committee, you as the

        16       chairman.  We have much dialogue about these

        17       issues. Our dialogue has never been contentious

        18       though philosophically sometimes we are far

        19       distant, but we've always, in my opinion, I hope

        20       that you will feel the same way or do feel the

        21       same, we have always dialogued openly, honestly

        22       and for the purpose of trying to find the kernel

        23       of truth that allows the state to govern itself

        24       better than it's governing itself at the

        25       moment.







                                                             
3076

         1                      In that regard, are you at all

         2       troubled by the overwhelming number of

         3       prosecutor-driven proposals which are sent to

         4       our committees? By that, I mean we do not often

         5       see bills proposed which have as the first

         6       consideration the defendants' side, but we see

         7       many, many bills originating, perhaps even most

         8       of them originating from the Governor's office,

         9       with a prosecutorial mentality inherent in the

        10       bill.  Does that at all trouble you?

        11                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Let me -- let me

        12       just say this that no, I'm really not troubled

        13       by it.  I -- I think, although I sometimes am

        14       concerned by, I think the impression that's

        15       being made that somehow some of the court cases

        16       are really just balancing the equities.  I have

        17       to tell you something, that -- and I have never

        18       been one -- I don't believe I've ever been one

        19       that has been a severe critic of the courts

        20       although I have to admit to you that there's

        21       been some times in the last few years I mean we

        22       have late budgets in part here because of the

        23       decision by the Court of Appeals that is not

        24       well known, the so-called "bankers decision",

        25       that sent the process here into chaos and we got







                                                             
3077

         1       to pass two budgets every year now which has

         2       been a major decision. The press doesn't

         3       understand it; in fact, we don't completely

         4       understand it.  It changed our process here for

         5       a century. You look at these cases, and I think

         6       that the most -- the biggest problem with these

         7       cases lies not in the fact that they fall so

         8       strongly on the defense side, but because they

         9       don't deal with justice.  In other words, a lot

        10       of the cases say, Well, it probably didn't

        11       prejudice the defendant, but we're going to

        12       throw the case out anyway because they didn't

        13       follow this hypertechnical rule.  It's not that

        14       the real -- the rights to that defendant were

        15       prejudiced, in fact so much so that one thing

        16       about it, if the rights of the defendant were so

        17       prejudiced, actually the Court of Appeals could

        18       throw the case out entirely and not even allow

        19       appeal in certain cases and there's ways it

        20       could be done, but the Court of Appeals, I

        21       think, realized that in certain of these cases

        22       that what they were doing was making a decision

        23       that basically said, even though we knew that

        24       this person is guilty, even though the evidence

        25       was clear, there was a technical rule that







                                                             
3078

         1       wasn't followed and, therefore, we're going to

         2       throw this case out, not thinking of the impact

         3       that that case could have on future cases and

         4       that's the problem with Ranghele.  It has had

         5       the impact of allowing hundreds of defendants,

         6       because of that super-technical rule to go

         7       free.

         8                      So my response to that is it

         9       doesn't trouble me because what really troubles

        10       me is that we have embarked on a situation in

        11       this state, I think, where if the law is not

        12       being followed as such, but what's happening is

        13       that it's being interpreted way beyond what this

        14       Legislature intended when we passed a whole

        15       series of statutes in dealing with the criminal

        16       law.

        17                      Beyond that, by the way, I would

        18       be very concerned, and if we go too far, then

        19       you will -- then you should be the first one to

        20       criticize me, and I should be criticized but I

        21       do not believe that any of these provisions in

        22       here goes beyond the bounds of justice for both

        23       the defense and the prosecution.

        24                      SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you very

        25       much, Senator.







                                                             
3079

         1                      If I may, Mr. President, on the

         2       bill.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Senator Waldon, on the bill, please.

         5                      SENATOR WALDON:  I respectfully

         6       disagree with Senator Volker.  I think that if

         7       we were to change the guarantees of the Ranghele

         8       case that we are creating a serious problem for

         9       ourselves.  It is very clear now what can and

        10       cannot be done in these evidentiary situations.

        11       Why make murky waters -

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       Senator, excuse me.  Ladies and gentlemen, if we

        14       could please have some quiet so we can hear the

        15       Senator.  I thank you.

        16                      Senator?

        17                      SENATOR WALDON:  Why make murky

        18       waters of crystal clear judicial streams? I

        19       think we ought to leave Ranghele where it is.

        20       If a defendant does not make certain

        21       protestations during trial, now he can appeal.

        22       I believe, under this proposal he loses that

        23       right. Again, why muddy the waters which are

        24       clear?

        25                      But I think the cogent thing that







                                                             
3080

         1       Senator Volker said which should really cause us

         2       to think is that the judges are, and I'm

         3       paraphrasing and I apologize if I'm not as

         4       accurate as he was in his description, the

         5       judges are going beyond the letter of the law in

         6       their interpretation, but it is my

         7       understanding, my brothers and sisters, in fact,

         8       that that is their right, that this nation was

         9       founded on separation of powers.

        10                      We have the executive branch, the

        11       legislative branch and the judicial branch and

        12       the balance of peer has to be kept separate and

        13       apart and the judiciary, the judicial, the

        14       judges, the justices have a right to interpret,

        15       I think if you're familiar with that, we're

        16       creating problems for ourselves and even though

        17       I previously voted for this, I was wrong. I was

        18       in error. I did not sufficiently do my home work

        19       and read as carefully as I should have what

        20       we've been given today to consider.  I did not

        21       get proper advice before this year.  This

        22       session I have.  I did not read carefully

        23       between the lines before.  This year I have, and

        24       I see a danger in what's being submitted for our

        25       consideration, and I see a stop sign on the road







                                                             
3081

         1       that we're traveling which says, let's

         2       reconsider this proposal.

         3                      I think it's time for us to take

         4       a very strong stand against this and I would

         5       encourage anyone within sound of my voice to

         6       review before the debate is over, this bill and

         7       to consider voting against this bill.  Recognize

         8       also that Senator Volker did respond when I said

         9       what was the action taken in the Assembly and it

        10       turned out no action was taken. That should

        11       cause us to pause and to think.

        12                      This is a one-house bill.  It's

        13       part of the criminal justice package of the

        14       Governor.  If I did not know better, I would

        15       think that prosecutors were drafting this and

        16       submitting it for our consideration.  So I

        17       encourage all of you to vote no on this

        18       proposal.

        19                      I thank Senator Volker, and I

        20       thank you very much, Mr. President.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        22       Senator Gentile.

        23                      SENATOR GENTILE:  Mr. President,

        24       on the bill.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                             
3082

         1       Senator Gentile, on the bill.

         2                      SENATOR GENTILE:  I speak from

         3       experience as a prosecutor on this bill and the

         4       prosecutors in this state under the decision of

         5       the People v. Rosario, still have an obligation

         6       to produce statements of witnesses prior to

         7       beginning of a trial.  That -- that obligation

         8       remains.  As soon as a witness' statement -

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        10       Senator Gentile.  Senator Skelos, why do you

        11       rise?

        12                      SENATOR SKELOS:  If I could just

        13       interrupt for a moment to have the last section

        14       read for the purposes of Senator Leichter

        15       voting.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Secretary will read.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 10.  This

        19       act shall take effect immediately.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       Call the roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        24       Senator Leichter, how do you vote?

        25                      SENATOR LEICHTER:  No.







                                                             
3083

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Senator Leichter will be recorded in the

         3       negative.  Withdraw the roll call. Senator

         4       Gentile.

         5                      SENATOR GENTILE:  Thank you, Mr.

         6       President.

         7                      As I was saying, under the People

         8       v. Rosario, prosecutors still have an obligation

         9       to make known and produce statements of

        10       witnesses when they become available or known to

        11       the prosecutor or should have known -- should

        12       have been known to the prosecutor.  That

        13       requirement still stands.  The obligation under

        14       United States vs. Brady, the Supreme Court

        15       decision requires a prosecutor to produce any

        16       exculpatory evidence upon its discovery,

        17       immediately upon its discovery. That's still an

        18       obligation of a prosecutor.

        19                      So the prosecutor is not running

        20       wild in a situation like this.  Under People v.

        21       Ranghele what has happened is that this

        22       requirement has been carried to the extent

        23       whereby if, for example, a witness were to have

        24       an entry in a diary and that diary were not

        25       known to a prosecutor and an entry relating to







                                                             
3084

         1       something in the case, at any time after the

         2       trial, if that entry were made known, that would

         3       be, under Rangalli, a per se rule.  There would

         4       be a reversal of a conviction and a new trial

         5       ordered even if that entry were duplicative or

         6       equivalent of another statement that was turned

         7       over to the defense.

         8                      The fact is that that is an

         9       unrealistic expectation of prosecutors.  If

        10       someone were to write something on a matchbook

        11       cover that related to the case and that match

        12       book cover were not known to the prosecutor or

        13       could not have been known to the prosecutor

        14       until some time after or never known but

        15       discovered at some point, the per se rule under

        16       Rangalli would require a new trial even if that

        17       statement had no effect on the outcome.  It

        18       would not have an effect on the outcome of the

        19       trial.

        20                      This rule, this Rangalli rule is

        21       a prosecutor's nightmare.  It's been something

        22       that has affected the cases in New York State

        23       for too long.  This rule is a bad rule.  This

        24       bill should be supported.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                             
3085

         1       Senator Abate.

         2                      SENATOR ABATE:  Yes.  Would

         3       Senator Volker yield to two questions?

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Volker, do you yield?

         6                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Certainly.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  He

         8       yields.

         9                      SENATOR ABATE:  Yes.  In terms of

        10       just clarification for the record, my colleague,

        11       Senator Gentile, talked a little bit about it.

        12       You wish under this proposed legislation to

        13       overturn the ruling of the Court of Appeals in

        14       Ranghele which required a new trial when

        15       material was not turned over, any Rosario

        16       material was not turned over.  Do you interpret

        17       the language you're proposing in any way to

        18       modify the Brady obligation?

        19                      SENATOR VOLKER:  No, sir as such,

        20       no.  Matter of fact, I assume we did send you a

        21       memo on that.

        22                      SENATOR ABATE:  I just want it on

        23       the record so that I understand.

        24                      SENATOR VOLKER:  I understand.

        25       No, the answer is no.







                                                             
3086

         1                      SENATOR ABATE:  So that any

         2       material that's in the possession of the

         3       district attorney that tends to exculpate the

         4       defendant would still, if it was not disclosed

         5       to the defendant, would require a new trial even

         6       if this became law?

         7                      SENATOR VOLKER:  I think that's

         8       required by both U.S. and federal constitutional

         9       law, and I think to abrogate that would put us

        10       in a situation where it would make the statute

        11       unconstitutional. So the answer to that is yes.

        12                      SENATOR ABATE:  The other

        13       question is, and it says that I seek advice from

        14       you, Senator, to make a change.  Right now, the

        15       law says that prior identification, whether it

        16       be a photo identification or line-up is

        17       considered bolstering and is not admissible if

        18       the -- whether the victim can make the in-court

        19       identification or not.

        20                      My concern is that this bill now

        21       says even if the witness can identify the

        22       defendant in court, will there still be -- will

        23       it still become admissible, these prior photo

        24       identifications even if an in-court identifi

        25       cation has been made because in that situation







                                                             
3087

         1       you have a bolstering situation?  It's not

         2       required for the people to make a case.

         3                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yeah, it doesn't

         4       change the photo identification piece, so we

         5       just reported a bill out, I think, as you know

         6       which would do that, but this bill does not

         7       change that.  This relates to the present

         8       process and to the fact that under certain

         9       circumstances where the line-up, the previous

        10       identification is put in, that there could be -

        11       there could be a law enforcement officer or

        12       whatever to testify as to that identification

        13       assuming that that identification was part of a

        14       trial in certain cases where the witness was

        15       either reluctant or unable to identify years

        16       later whatever, at the trial itself.

        17                      SENATOR ABATE:  So -

        18                      SENATOR VOLKER:  So it would not

        19       change -- Let me just finish.  As I understand

        20       it, the previous ruling on lack of the

        21       photographic evidence was -- is not changed.  If

        22       that were to be changed, that would be by a

        23       separate bill that we just talked about in our

        24       committee the other day.

        25                      SENATOR ABATE:  O.K. So let me







                                                             
3088

         1       just clarify it again.  If the witness can make

         2       an in-court identification of the defendant -

         3                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yeah.

         4                      SENATOR ABATE:  -- then it would

         5       still be impermissible to introduce at trial a

         6       prior identification, whether it be a photo

         7       identification or a line-up?

         8                      SENATOR VOLKER:  That's correct.

         9                      SENATOR ABATE:  That would be

        10       considered bolstering?

        11                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes.

        12                      SENATOR ABATE:  That would only

        13       be admissible if the witness could not make an

        14       in-court identification.

        15                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes, that's

        16       correct or a misidentification.

        17                      SENATOR ABATE:  Or a mis

        18       identification.

        19                      SENATOR VOLKER:  And if you

        20       remember, on the photo you're entitled to the

        21       Wade hearing and all that protection, but that's

        22       not in this bill.  That change is not in this

        23       bill.

        24                      SENATOR ABATE:  Yes.  On the

        25       bill.







                                                             
3089

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Senator Abate, on the bill.

         3                      SENATOR ABATE:  I will be voting

         4       for this bill and the concerns are if we really

         5       want to produce reform in the criminal justice

         6       system, it has to be comprehensive and it has to

         7       look at what results will expedite the cases,

         8       and will produce earlier and open discovery.

         9                      My concern is we deal with the

        10       prosecution side here and we talk about open and

        11       early discovery.  Why isn't that part of this

        12       bill? Victims want open and early discovery.  It

        13       means that cases can be resolved that much

        14       faster.  Defendants want open and early

        15       discovery, because they need to have enough

        16       information to determine and their lawyers need

        17       that information to determine if they want to

        18       take a plea or go to trial.  The courts

        19       benefit.  The earlier people get this discovery,

        20       the better it is and I guess my query is, and if

        21        -- my query is, why isn't this part of the

        22       bill, open and early discovery?

        23                      That would be, along with these

        24       reforms, would produce a dramatic change in how

        25       the criminal justice system responds to the







                                                             
3090

         1       rights of defendants and responds to the needs

         2       of crime victims.

         3                      And I'd also like to see in this

         4       bill, and hopefully the good Senator Volker

         5       would not only include early discovery reform

         6       within this bill because then we would have a

         7       balanced approach that Senator Waldon is talking

         8       about, but penalties against the district

         9       attorney when the district attorney does not

        10       disclose Brady material.  It should not have to

        11       take an appeal to raise that issue.  Brady

        12       material, as we all know, is fundamentally

        13       critical to prepare the defense in that trial.

        14                      There should be enough

        15       disincentive placed upon the district attorney

        16       so that no district attorney, because they are

        17       aggressive, they want to assure a conviction,

        18       fails in their responsibility to turn over these

        19       exculpatory materials.  So I am hoping that when

        20       this is not a one-house bill but we have a

        21       two-house bill that talks about these kinds of

        22       issues in this bill or the other issues that I'm

        23       raising, there will be a balanced approach.  We

        24       will get a bipartisan support for this effort,

        25       not just the Senate but the Assembly.







                                                             
3091

         1                      So I look forward to working with

         2       Senator Volker's office to make these reforms

         3       and include them in the bill.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Read the last section, please.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 10.  This

         7       act shall take effect immediately.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Call the roll.

        10                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Senator Waldon, to explain his vote.

        13                      SENATOR WALDON:  Thank you very

        14       much, Mr. President.

        15                      I would like everyone here to

        16       understand that this is not the same bill as

        17       last year.  I think there was an inadvertent

        18       slip in Senator Volker's response to my

        19       questions, and I'm sure in his explanation of

        20       his vote he can correct this if he wishes to,

        21       but this is not the same bill as last year.

        22       There are differences.

        23                      Mr. President, I respectfully ask

        24       to be recorded in the negative.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                             
3092

         1       Senator Waldon in the negative.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded in

         3       the negative on Calendar Number 449 are Senators

         4       Leichter, Markowitz, Montgomery, Paterson,

         5       Rosado, Sampson, Santiago, Smith and Waldon.

         6       Ayes 49, nays -

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         8       Senator Connor.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Also Senator

        10       Connor.  Ayes 48, nays 10.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        12       bill is passed.  Senator Skelos.

        13                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President at

        14       this time, if we could take up Calendar 692,

        15       Senate Print 4119-A, by Senator Velella.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Secretary will read.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       692, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4119-A, an

        20       act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

        21       homeowners insurance.

        22                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        23       is there a message at the desk?

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Yes, Senator Skelos, the message of necessity is







                                                             
3093

         1       at the desk.

         2                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Move to accept.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  On

         4       the message, motion to accept has been made.

         5       All in favor say aye.

         6                      (Response of "Aye.")

         7                      Opposed nay.

         8                      (There was no response.)

         9                      The message is accepted,

        10       Senator.

        11                      SENATOR SKELOS: Last section,

        12       please.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Read

        14       the last section. .

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 13.  This

        16       act shall take effect immediately.

        17                      SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  An

        19       explanation has been requested by Senator

        20       Paterson.

        21                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes, Mr.

        22       President.

        23                      This bill is a continuation of

        24       the coastal insurance bill that we passed last

        25       year.  It's a one-year extender and basically







                                                             
3094

         1       extends the program that we put in place to try

         2       and relieve the pressure that was on the coastal

         3       communities of our state as a result of a

         4       shortage of availability of homeowner

         5       insurance.

         6                      It continues on this year which

         7       addresses the need for inner city insurance for

         8       one year and it creates a temporary panel on

         9       catastrophic insurance to come back and review

        10       with us the need in this state to establish a

        11       cat' fund which other states have.

        12                      We have several proposals before

        13       the Insurance Committee to look at the

        14       possibility of creating a catastrophic funds so

        15       that when -- and we know it will hit, we don't

        16       know when -- when a major hurricane does hit

        17       Long Island or the coastal areas of our state

        18       that we will have in place a fund sufficient to

        19       insure those people who are the victims of this

        20       catastrophe, that the monies will be available,

        21       the insurance will be available and that we will

        22       be able to deal with that problem when it

        23       occurs.

        24                      There are several proposals that

        25       we are looking at in the Insurance Committee,







                                                             
3095

         1       how to fund this.  We've looked at other states

         2       such as Texas, Florida, California.  I am not

         3       sure yet which direction we should be going in.

         4       That's why we ask that this task force be

         5       created with appointments by both of the houses,

         6       with appointments by the Governor, to take a

         7       good hard look at what we'll do with

         8       catastrophic insurance.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        10       Senator Paterson, why do you rise?

        11                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        12       President.  If Senator Volker would yield for a

        13       few questions.  I'm sorry, Senator Velella.  I

        14       always ask Senator Volker so many questions.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       Senator Velella, Senator Velella, will you

        17       yield?

        18                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       Senator Velella yields; Senator Volker refuses.

        21                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

        22       President.  I'll ask Senator Volker some of

        23       questions I have in private.

        24                      Senator, I'm just taking a look

        25       at this piece of legislation. We just brought it







                                                             
3096

         1       out of committee today, Senator, and I'm

         2       somewhat unfamiliar with it.  I do remember we

         3       brought this bill before us on March 13th of

         4       last year, and you and I discussed it and one of

         5       the questions I asked you then was about the

         6       rate plans for NYPIUA, and in Section 1 of the

         7       bill right here in the first paragraph, if you

         8       could explain what the whole rating system will

         9       be for the policyholders.

        10                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Are you

        11       serious? Do you want me to explain the entire

        12       rate structure and how it's determined and what

        13       the factors are?

        14                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Well, I'd like

        15       an abridged explanation of the rate structure.

        16                      SENATOR VELELLA:  O.K. Well, the

        17       way rates are set is we have actuaries that look

        18       at the experience and they look at the claims

        19       that have been made, the premiums that have been

        20       paid, they project out, based -- as actuaries

        21       what the risk factors are and fair and

        22       reasonable premiums to cover that risk and cover

        23       the operation are made by the panel of experts.

        24                      How an actuary arrives at the

        25       actual numbers is something that I've got to







                                                             
3097

         1       confess I don't have a sufficient education to

         2       really explain to you. We have nine different

         3       types of tests that an actuary must pass in this

         4       state to be certified.  It's like trying to

         5       explain to you why a doctor performs a medical

         6       procedure.  He's educated, he's qualified.  We

         7       have supposedly the best actuaries available

         8       that look at the marketplace, look at the

         9       demands, look at the claims and set rates based

        10       on that.

        11                      NYPIUA was formed because there

        12       were a lot of companies that did not want to

        13       issue insurance, particularly fire insurance in

        14       the inner city.  We formed that so that we could

        15       have a joint group assume that risk, spread the

        16       risk which is the principle of insurance and

        17       have actuarially sound premiums put forward for

        18       this.

        19                      It's a platter of right.

        20       Companies that write other business in this

        21       state participate into it.  It's sort of a

        22       forced underwriting procedure that we do so we

        23       can provide fire insurance to people who own

        24       properties in the inner cities where, if we left

        25       the insurance companies on their own, they would







                                                             
3098

         1       choose not to write this.

         2                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

         3       President.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Senator Paterson.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator

         7       Velella's point is well taken.

         8                      General questions like the one I

         9       asked often earn the direction of over

        10       simplification and I suppose that what I should

        11       really do is just raise to Senator Volker if we

        12       would yield to another question.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        14       Senator Velella, do you yield to another

        15       question?

        16                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Sorry, to

        17       Senator Velella.

        18                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes, I yield.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       Senator Velella yields, sir.

        21                      SENATOR PATERSON:  My concern is

        22       really about the adjustment of rates itself and

        23       particularly the increase of rates and how this

        24       section of the legislation would affect the

        25       prior approval system.  I'm just wondering if







                                                             
3099

         1       any of the members will be able to raise or

         2       adjust rates without consulting or coming back

         3       to the Insurance Department or whatever the

         4       appropriate authority would be.

         5                      SENATOR VELELLA:  I'm sorry.  I

         6       was distracted because somebody was trying to

         7       give me the information you had sought.  Could

         8       you just repeat the question.

         9                      SENATOR PATERSON:  O.K. You

        10       should ask Senator Volker; he knows this cold.

        11                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Well, he's

        12       counseled me for numerous hours on this bill.

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  My question

        14       was just the effect that the section of the

        15       legislation, Section 1, is going to have on the

        16       prior approval system, on the adjustment of

        17       rates, whether or not there might be increases

        18       in rates without approval of the state Insurance

        19       Department or -

        20                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Oh, no.  The

        21       answer to that is no.  The board of actuaries

        22       that look at this and make the recommendations

        23       based on the availability, based on the

        24       experience, based on all the underwriting

        25       criteria will make a recommendation to the







                                                             
3100

         1       Superintendent of Insurance. Then the

         2       superintendent approves the rate or does not

         3       approve the rate.  He may even at some point

         4       decide if in his discretion he wants to hold a

         5       public hearing on that rate he can always do

         6       that.  He generally doesn't. Companies come in

         7       and might contest what an actuary says.  He then

         8       evaluates the evidence and then either makes a

         9       ruling for or against the proposed rate.

        10                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you,

        11       Senator.

        12                      SENATOR VELELLA: You're welcome.

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Then, if I am

        14       to -- if I am to infer from those remarks that

        15       there would be no opportunity to actually change

        16       the rates by the individual companies, then that

        17       satisfies my concern.

        18                      I have just one last question if

        19       the Senator would yield.

        20                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        22       Senator, do you yield? Senator Velella yields.

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Senator

        24       Velella, my question is just simply we passed

        25       this legislation last year.  We sunsetted the







                                                             
3101

         1       legislation for this point. Is there any reason

         2       why we would not just establish permanency or

         3       should I take from your original remarks that

         4       there still isn't enough data or we have not

         5       really acquired enough information to let us

         6       know whether or not this should be a permanent

         7       system?

         8                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Well, I think

         9       yes, you can take from my remarks that this is

        10       an area where we have a state of flux.  We're

        11       dealing with very difficult issues to try and

        12       evaluate, the cost of a hurricane hitting, the

        13       cost of what -- what type of policy will allow

        14       us to have availability in the marketplace, and

        15       at the same time deliver a premium that is

        16       reasonable to a homeowner, the issue of inner

        17       city fire coverage.  These are all things that

        18       are in a state of flux.

        19                      I do want to -- I do have an

        20       obligation to correct something you said.  I can

        21       not and nothing I said guarantees you what the

        22       rates will be in the future.  There is a

        23       mechanism in place to prevent unconscionable

        24       increases but the increases that might result in

        25       premiums are subject to the Superintendent's







                                                             
3102

         1       approval based on data that's presented to him

         2       by actuaries which can be contested by either

         3       consumer groups or insurance carriers, like any

         4       other insurance that we have in this state.

         5       Rates cannot be guaranteed into the future, so I

         6       am not saying to you that there is no

         7       possibility a rate may be increased.

         8                      As it is now, we believe that

         9       rates will remain basically the same and that's

        10       why we only have a one-year extender because

        11       this is an issue that's in a state of flux.  We

        12       have to get better evaluations of the market

        13       place, some better programs in place.  We have

        14       many bills that have been filed by our Senators

        15       with ideas as to how we might stabilize that

        16       market, ideas about whether or not deductibles

        17       should be raised to keep the insurance afford

        18       able, whether or not that's the right thing to

        19       do in the marketplace.  Joint underwriting

        20       groups have been -- made proposals.  Re-insurers

        21       of the state of New York and the national groups

        22       have come in and said they can provide

        23       reinsurance to lower the premium.

        24                      There are a battery of things

        25       that have to be done.  That's why we think a







                                                             
3103

         1       one-year extender is something that we should

         2       have.

         3                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you, Mr.

         4       President.  On the bill.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       Senator Paterson, on the bill.

         7                      SENATOR PATERSON:  On the bill.

         8       Senator Velella should be assured, as much as we

         9       would like to preserve the lowest rates possible

        10       for policyholders, we recognize the fact that

        11       there could be a fluctuation in the rates based

        12       on a number of actuarial figures.

        13                      We're just happy to hear from

        14       Senator Volker -- Senator Velella's, remarks

        15       that we're going to be able, through this

        16       process, to make sure that the Superintendent of

        17       Insurance is involved.

        18                      We also would suggest that there

        19       is as immediate a conference with the Assembly

        20       because our fear is what could really be the end

        21       of NYPIUA and there are so many policyholders

        22       around this state who run great risks from being

        23       in the geographic locations particularly where

        24       they are, that we're somewhat concerned that any

        25       delay or any possibility of this sort of







                                                             
3104

         1       coverage running out would certainly inure to

         2       their detriment and this is the reason that we

         3       would encourage that some permanency be

         4       established in this legislation as soon as is

         5       reasonable.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         7       Senator Dollinger.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Would the

         9       sponsor yield to one question?

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Senator Velella, would you yield to Senator

        12       Dollinger?

        13                      SENATOR VELELLA:  Yes.

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  When we did

        15       the prior bill, I asked you have a couple

        16       questions regarding the applicability of the

        17       coastal zone insurance program in upstate New

        18       York, and particularly on the south shore of

        19       Lake Ontario.  Can I assume from this bill since

        20       it is just an extender, that the program and the

        21       participation in Lake Ontario where we have

        22       exceptionally high water as a result of the very

        23       wet spring we've had there, Lake Ontario is way

        24       up, we expect storms that could have significant

        25       damage in the community of Greece or Hamlin,







                                                             
3105

         1       some of the communities that Senator Maziarz,

         2       Senator Nozzolio and I share, can we be assured

         3       that the program -- the insurance program will

         4       continue to be in effect for them for the next

         5       year as well?

         6                      SENATOR VELELLA:  We are

         7       extending whatever is in existence now will be

         8       in effect for the next year of that if they are

         9       eligible under the program, and I believe they

        10       are, that would continue.  We've taken nothing

        11       out of the authorizations in this bill.  We're

        12       simply continuing on for one year because, as

        13       you pointed out, Senator Maziarz, Senator

        14       Nozzolio has pointed out to me there are some

        15       unique problems in upstate that don't really

        16       reflect the problems we're addressing on the

        17       coastal areas in downstate.  However, they are

        18       just as important and any program should include

        19       them, yes.

        20                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Yes, just to

        21       Senator Velella, it's my intention, Senator, I'm

        22       going to give you just a short little memo maybe

        23       after the session or after the recess period for

        24       a couple weeks just to bring you up to date on

        25       some of the additional insurance-related







                                                             
3106

         1       problems that I have experienced and my

         2       constituents have experienced in dealing with

         3       the high water problem on Lake Ontario, and I

         4       would just urge -

         5                      SENATOR VELELLA:  I believe there

         6       is also some federal insurances that are

         7       available, federal programs that play into this

         8       and we ought to tailor our program to that, and

         9       we'll be happy to work with you.

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Again through

        11       you, Mr. Chair, just on the bill.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       Senator Dollinger, on the bill.

        14                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  In upstate

        15       New York, we don't actually get to flood level

        16       because the water rises but it doesn't reach

        17       flood level, so we don't trigger the federal

        18       protection but nonetheless when the water rises

        19       and the lake winds kick up, you have worse than

        20       a flood; you actually have the equivalent of

        21       huge waves pounding the shoreline, substantial

        22       erosion, damage to homes, not covered by the

        23       federal flood plan because it doesn't rise high

        24       enough enough to constitute a flood but

        25       nonetheless it's the equivalent of a flood for







                                                             
3107

         1       insurance purposes and I'll will give you a memo

         2       on that and maybe it can be included in the

         3       discussions.

         4                      Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO: Read

         6       the last section, please.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 13.  This

         8       act shall take effect immediately.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        10       Call the roll.

        11                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 58.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        14       bill is passed.

        15                      Senator Skelos.

        16                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        17       would you call up Calendar Number 336.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        19       Secretary will read.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        21       336, by member of the Assembly Tocci, Assembly

        22       Print 2958, an act to amend the Retirement and

        23       Social Security Law, in relation to establish

        24       ment of a presumption.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                             
3108

         1       Read the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.  This

         3       act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Call the roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the roll. )

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 58.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

         9       bill is passed.

        10                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Is there any

        11       housekeeping to take care of?

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  I

        13       believe the house is clean, sir.

        14                      SENATOR SKELOS:  The house is

        15       clean?

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        17       house is clean, sir.

        18                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        19       there being no further business, I move we

        20       adjourn until Monday, May 5th, 1997 at 3:00

        21       p.m., intervening days to be legislative days,

        22       and we wish everybody good health.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:  The

        24       Senate will stand adjourned until Monday, May

        25       5th, at 3:00 p.m., intervening days to be







                                                             
3109

         1       legislative days.  Everybody take care and come

         2       back healthy.

         3                      (Whereupon at 12:32 p.m., the

         4       Senate adjourned.)

         5

         6

         7

         8

         9

        10