Regular Session - June 10, 1997
4938
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8 ALBANY, NEW YORK
9 June 10, 1997
10 10:05 a.m.
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13 REGULAR SESSION
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17 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President
18 STEPHEN F. SLOAN, Secretary
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4939
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
3 come to order. Would you please rise and join
4 with me in the Pledge of Allegiance.
5 (The assemblage repeated the
6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
7 May we bow our heads in a moment
8 of silence.
9 (A moment of silence was
10 observed.)
11 The reading of the Journal,
12 please.
13 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
14 Monday, June 9th. The Senate met pursuant to
15 adjournment. The Journal of Saturday, June 7th,
16 was read and approved. On motion, the Senate
17 adjourned.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Without
19 objection, the Journal stands approved as read.
20 Presentation of petitions.
21 Messages from the Assembly.
22 Messages from the Governor.
23 Reports of standing committees.
24 Reports of select committees.
25 Communications and reports from
4940
1 state officers.
2 Motions and resolutions.
3 Senator Marcellino.
4 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
5 Madam President.
6 On page number 46, I offer the
7 following amendments to Calendar Number 125,
8 Senate Print Number 931, and ask that said bill
9 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
10 THE PRESIDENT: The amendment is
11 received.
12 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Also, Madam
13 President, can we remove the star from that bill
14 at the request of the sponsor.
15 THE PRESIDENT: The star is
16 removed.
17 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
18 President, on page number 44, I offer the
19 following amendments to Calendar Number 1154,
20 Senate Print Number 5254, and ask that said bill
21 retain its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
22 THE PRESIDENT: The amendments
23 are received.
24 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you.
25 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Skelos,
4941
1 we have some substitutions.
2 SENATOR SKELOS: Please make the
3 substitutions.
4 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
5 will read.
6 THE SECRETARY: On page 14,
7 Senator Spano moves to discharge from the
8 Committee on Rules Assembly Print 2122-A and
9 substitute it for the identical Senate bill,
10 Third Reading 450.
11 On page 16, Senator Goodman moves
12 to discharge from the Committee on Rules
13 Assembly Print Number 6658-A and substitute it
14 for the identical Senate bill, Third Reading
15 517.
16 On page 21, Senator Wright moves
17 to discharge from the Committee on Rules
18 Assembly Print 6510-A and substitute it for the
19 identical Senate bill, Third Reading 637.
20 On page 31, by Senator Lack moves
21 to discharge from the Committee on Rules
22 Assembly Bill 1074-C and substitute it for the
23 identical Senate bill, Third Reading 867.
24 On page 44, Senator Hannon moves
25 to discharge from the Committee on Rules
4942
1 Assembly Bill 7878 and substitute it for the
2 identical Senate bill, Third Reading 1151.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 substitutions are ordered.
5 Senator Skelos.
6 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I
7 ask at this time that we adopt the Resolution
8 Calendar.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
10 President.
11 SENATOR SKELOS: And if we could
12 temporarily lay aside Resolution 1636.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
14 motion is to adopt the Resolution Calendar
15 excepting Resolution Number 1636. All those in
16 favor signify by saying aye.
17 (Response of "Aye".)
18 Opposed, nay.
19 (There was no response.)
20 The Resolution Calendar is
21 adopted.
22 Senator Skelos.
23 SENATOR SKELOS: At this time if
24 we could take up the non-controversial calendar.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4943
1 Secretary will read the non-controversial
2 calendar.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 174, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 1219-A, an
5 act to amend the Election Law, in relation to
6 party recommendations.
7 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
9 bill aside.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 679, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 4120-A, an
12 act to amend the Social Services Law, in
13 relation to county responsibility for medical
14 assistance payments.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
20 roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll.)
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
24 is passed.
25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4944
1 841, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 4483-A, an
2 act to amend Chapter 942 of the Laws of 1983 and
3 Chapter 541 of the Laws of 1984, relating to
4 foster family care.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Secretary will read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 948, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5176, an
17 act to amend the Social Services Law, in
18 relation to the capacity of foster family
19 boarding homes.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
22 bill aside.
23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
24 951, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5223, an
25 act to amend the Family Court Act, in relation
4945
1 to court reviews.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Secretary will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
5 act shall take effect immediately.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
11 is passed.
12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
13 1019, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 5231, an
14 act to amend the Highway Law, Environmental
15 Conservation Law, in relation to the filing of
16 certificates.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Secretary will read the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll.)
24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
4946
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1024, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4182-A, an
4 act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law, in
5 relation to improving the agricultural districts
6 program.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 13. This
10 act shall take effect on the 90th day.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 1037, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 5060, an
19 act to amend the Election Law, in relation to
20 merging election districts.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Secretary will read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
24 act shall take effect on the 1st day of August.
25 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
4947
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
2 bill aside at the request of the Minority
3 Leader.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 1038, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,
6 Assembly Print 7683, an act to amend the
7 Election Law, in relation to registration days.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Secretary will read the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect immediately.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
13 roll.
14 (The Secretary called the roll.)
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 1050, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 4085, an
20 act to repeal Section 630 of the Business
21 Corporation Law.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside for
23 the day at the request of the sponsor.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
25 bill aside for the day at the request of the
4948
1 sponsor.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1053, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 4335, an
4 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to
5 indemnification of City University Community
6 College employees.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 38.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 1132, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 1488, an
19 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation
20 to public notification of health hazards.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
23 bill aside.
24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
25 1133, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1681-A, an
4949
1 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
2 relation to authorizing out of state
3 recreational vehicle dealers.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
13 is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 1134, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 1828, an act
16 to amend the Judiciary Law, in relation to
17 increasing the number of County Court judges in
18 the county of Ontario.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
20 bill aside for the day.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 1135, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2244, an act
23 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law and
24 the Town Law, in relation to rights to practice
25 Forestry Act.
4950
1 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
3 bill aside.
4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
5 1136, by Senator Lachman, Senate Print 2621, an
6 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
7 relation to the possession of an open container
8 in a motor vehicle.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 Secretary will read the last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
12 act shall take effect on the first day of
13 November.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
19 is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1137, by Senator Stavisky, Senate Print 2906, an
22 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
23 increasing penalties for criminal solicitation.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
25 Secretary will read the last section.
4951
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
2 act shall take effect on the first day of
3 November.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 39.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
9 is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1138, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 3113, an
12 act in relation to authorizing Tier I status for
13 Mary Ann Martin in the New York State and local
14 Employees Retirement System.
15 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
17 a home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
18 will lay the bill aside at the request of the
19 Acting Minority Leader.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1139, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3211, an act
22 to amend the Correction Law, in relation to the
23 confinement of persons in the Chemung County
24 Jail.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There's a
4952
1 home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
2 will read the last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4 act shall take effect immediately.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
6 roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll.)
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 40.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
10 is passed.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 1140, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3414-A, an
13 act to amend the Judiciary Law and the Uniform
14 City Court Act, in relation to creating a new
15 quarter-time judge.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Secretary will read the last section.
18 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This
19 act shall take effect immediately.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
21 roll.
22 (The Secretary called the roll.)
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 41.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
25 is passed.
4953
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 1141, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 3472, an
3 act to amend the Social Services Law, in
4 relation to the investigation of Workfare
5 participants.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
8 bill aside.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 1142, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3654, an
11 act to amend the Retirement and Social Security
12 Law, in relation to retirement of supervising
13 fire inspectors.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
15 a home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
16 will read the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
20 roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll.)
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
24 is passed.
25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4954
1 1143, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 3924, an
2 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
3 allowing an 11-year-old person to take a hunting
4 safety course.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Secretary will read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
8 act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 1145, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 440...
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Can we
18 get a little order in the chamber, please. It's
19 getting pretty noisy. It's getting difficult to
20 hear the Secretary read the bills. The
21 conversations, can you please take them out of
22 the chamber. The staff, take their places.
23 Senator Paterson, why do you
24 rise?
25 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
4955
1 are we on Calendar Number 1145?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: 1145 was
3 just read.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: May we please
5 lay that aside.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Secretary will read -- excuse me -- lay Calendar
8 Number 1145 aside at the request of the Acting
9 Minority Leader.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 1146, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 4424, an
12 act legalizing, validating, ratifying and
13 confirming certain acts.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
15 a local fiscal impact note at the desk. The
16 Secretary will read the last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
20 roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll.)
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 42.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
24 is passed.
25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4956
1 1147, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 4697-A,
2 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
3 relation to authorizing a residential parking
4 system in the city of Auburn.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
6 a home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
7 will read the last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
9 act shall take effect immediately.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
15 is passed.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1148, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 4885, an act
18 to permit the reopening of the optional 20-year
19 retirement plan to Dennis Solo.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
21 a home rule message at the desk. The Secretary
22 will read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
24 act shall take effect immediately.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
4957
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
5 is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 1149, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 4917, an
8 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules
9 and the Court of Claims Act.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
12 bill aside.
13 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
14 1150, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5015, an
15 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to
16 the community service block grant program.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Secretary will read the last section.
19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
20 act shall take effect immediately.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
22 roll.
23 (The Secretary called the roll.)
24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 43.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
4958
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 1151, substituted earlier today, by the Assembly
4 Committee on Rules, Assembly Print 7878, an act
5 to amend Chapter 602 of the Laws of 1982
6 amending the Social Services Law.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read the last section.
9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
10 act shall take effect immediately.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
12 roll.
13 (The Secretary called the roll.)
14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 1152, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 5139, an
19 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
20 relation to clinical practice by faculty members
21 of the State University of New York.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Secretary will read the last section.
24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
25 act shall take effect immediately.
4959
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll.)
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
6 is passed.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 1153, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 5199, an
9 act to amend the Penal Law and the Criminal
10 Procedure Law, in relation to the collection of
11 fines.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Secretary will read the last section.
14 Senator Leichter, did you wish
15 that bill laid aside?
16 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah, lay it
17 aside.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
19 bill aside.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1155, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 5349, an
22 act to amend the Lien Law, in relation to the
23 duration of mechanics' liens.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
25 Secretary will read the last section.
4960
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2 act shall take effect immediately.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
4 roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll.)
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
8 is passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 1156, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 5369,
11 an act to amend Chapter 600 of the Laws of 1993,
12 amending the Environmental Conservation Law
13 relating to the management of bear.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Secretary will read the last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll.)
21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 45.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
23 is passed.
24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
25 1157, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 5379, an
4961
1 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to
2 extending the authorization of the county of
3 Tioga.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will read the last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record
12 the negatives. Announce the results.
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 44, nays 2,
14 Senators Dollinger and Gentile recorded in the
15 negative.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 1158, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5394, an
20 act to amend the Estates, Powers and Trusts Law,
21 in relation to converting uniform gifts to
22 minors.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
24 Secretary will read the last section.
25 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
4962
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
3 roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll.)
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 46.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
7 is passed.
8 Senator Skelos, that completes
9 the reading of the non-controversial calendar.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President, I
11 believe the Minority has consented to removing
12 the lay aside on Calendar Number 948 by Senator
13 Saland, if we could have the last section read.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Secretary will read the title to Calendar Number
16 948.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 948, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 5176, an
19 act to amend the Social Services Law, in
20 relation to the capacity of foster family
21 boarding homes.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Secretary will read the last section.
24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
25 act shall take effect immediately.
4963
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll.)
4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 47.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
6 is passed.
7 Senator Skelos.
8 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
9 at this time if we could take up the
10 controversial calendar, regular order.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Secretary will read the controversial calendar,
13 beginning with Calendar Number 174, by Senator
14 Maltese, on page 6.
15 Senator Skelos.
16 SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an
17 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in the
18 Majority Conference Room.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Immediate
20 meeting of the Rules Committee, immediate
21 meeting of the Rules Committee in the Majority
22 Conference Room, Room 332.
23 The Secretary will read.
24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
25 174, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 1219-A, an
4964
1 act to amend the Election Law, in relation to
2 party recommendations.
3 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Maltese, if you'd wait for just a minute while
6 the members of the Rules Committee depart the
7 chamber, I think it will get quiet enough so
8 that you will be able to give an explanation
9 which has been requested on Calendar Number 174.
10 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
11 the purpose of this bill is to provide that a
12 party recommendation to fill a vacancy for the
13 office of election commissioner be made by
14 county committee or by a committee chosen by the
15 county committee rules as indicated.
16 In addition, it provides that
17 certificates of party recommendation to fill
18 such vacancy shall be filed no later than 45
19 days after the creation of the vacancy.
20 Previously there was no time limit.
21 Currently if a vacancy occurs in
22 the office of election commissioner, the vacancy
23 only may be filled by the full county
24 committee. Especially in the city of New York
25 and the larger counties, this becomes a very
4965
1 cumbersome procedure with, in some cases,
2 thousands of members and in most cases, in most
3 counties, the meetings of the county committee
4 are only held at most once or twice a year.
5 The bill in the Assembly had a
6 variation. It's carried by -- Assemblyman
7 "Denny" Farrell had a variation. They are
8 amending their bill to conform with ours and
9 that will be the final bill which is agreed on
10 -- upon by both houses.
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Leichter.
14 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
15 again, we have an Election Law bill of such
16 insignificance that no rater screen could
17 possibly pick it up.
18 I mean, here we have an election
19 system in this state which is an utter disgrace.
20 It doesn't work. It doesn't function. It's an
21 embarrassment and we come up with these bills -
22 and I don't say critically of you, Senator
23 Maltese, because I know there's greater forces
24 at work here -- but a bill that charitably could
25 be said is rearranging the deck chairs as the
4966
1 Titanic is sinking.
2 We ought to get rid of the local
3 boards of elections as they presently exist run
4 by the two dominant parties. Elections are not
5 something that ought to be left to the parties
6 to run. Election is a key essential government
7 function.
8 I put in a bill that would get
9 rid of these politically-operated boards of
10 elections and have us run elections as it's done
11 in many states by a government agency.
12 We've had incidents in this state
13 just in the last few years that are such an
14 embarrassment. In Brooklyn at an election last
15 year -- Senator Maltese, you'll remember -- the
16 machines didn't come to half the districts.
17 That had a real impact on the results of
18 elections as we know in this house.
19 Many such other incidents. I can
20 just say that if an election in a developing
21 country was run the way some of our elections
22 are run here in New York State, people would say
23 there's an absence of democracy. They would
24 want to send foreign monitors to see how the
25 elections are run.
4967
1 So, Senator Maltese, I think it's
2 important that all of us, particularly you as
3 the chair of this committee, take some
4 initiative and some lead to seeing that the
5 elections that we have in this state comport to
6 what are the basic standards of fairness, of
7 efficiency, of democracy. That just doesn't
8 exist presently.
9 So this bill, Senator, sure I can
10 support it but it's meaningless. Let's do
11 something to have an election machinery that
12 works. Let's do something to get rid of the
13 abuses of campaign financing. I mean, nothing
14 is more essential to our democracy than to have
15 properly run and fairly run elections, and we
16 just don't have this in the state.
17 You know, one of the reasons -
18 or a lot of conjecture, why is it that Americans
19 are more and more turned off with government,
20 with politics? Why is there less and less
21 participation in the -- in elections? Well, one
22 reason is because they see a system that's so
23 riddled with abuses that they're really turned
24 off, and understandably. I think we've got an
25 obligation to see that these matters are
4968
1 addressed, and I think it's inexcusable.
2 It's really tragic that this
3 group of people in this chamber, smart people -
4 and all of you know what the problems are
5 because we're all in the system. We've gone
6 through it. We may have benefited at times. We
7 may have been damaged at other times but in our
8 heart we know it's wrong and we ought to do
9 something about it and we ought to take the
10 lead, and let me tell you, if we did, we would
11 find that people would respond to the electoral
12 system as they do not presently for very good
13 reasons.
14 So, Senator Maltese, I can just
15 urge you again and urge all of my colleagues on
16 a non-partisan, bipartisan basis, whatever you
17 want it, let's have fair, official elections in
18 this state, something that we presently don't
19 have.
20 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Maltese.
23 SENATOR MALTESE: Taking the due
24 regard for my good colleague, Senator Leichter
25 -- who I certainly respect and admire his point
4969
1 of view at times, although I disagree a good
2 part of the time -- I think he does not give due
3 recognition to the fact that last year the -
4 one of the most sweeping pieces of legislation
5 in Election Law, certainly in my some 30 years
6 of working in the Election Law both as an
7 insurgent -- so-called insurgent and so-called
8 organization person, not only passed but was
9 signed into law with the full cooperation of
10 both parties in both houses and the Governor,
11 and it was at the instigation of the Governor
12 incorporating many of the suggestions and
13 recommendations made by the so-called "goo-goos"
14 for many, many years and we are seeing the
15 fruits of that in these very days as many party
16 people throughout the city and state circulating
17 petitions and the praise that has come forth
18 from many of the organizations at the ease in
19 comparison to prior years will be nothing
20 compared to what will occur when the filings
21 occur and things like cover sheets which were
22 simply devices, I believe, to throw candidates
23 off the ballot and, in many cases, deprive the
24 voters of an adequate choice are able to be
25 corrected. So I don't think that we should
4970
1 despair like Cassandras at what hasn't been done
2 but should rejoice in what has been done.
3 As far as these specific bills,
4 today's bill, my next bill, the bill from
5 yesterday, those bills have a new spirit of
6 cooperation in both the Assembly and the Senate,
7 the Democrat and Republican and, as I've
8 indicated each time, they are usually at the
9 request of the state board or the city board
10 with the full cooperation of the councils and
11 the chairmen of the committees.
12 So I think that we do have a
13 responsibility to sharpen up the law, to make it
14 more efficient and as for those portions of the
15 law mainly relating, I believe, to campaign
16 financing or campaign contributions and
17 disclosures -- disclosure requirements -- which
18 Senator Leichter, you know, very, very much
19 would like to change -- I think those are
20 targets for us to continue to work on and try to
21 arrive at some amicable situation.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
23 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
24 Senator Dollinger.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
4971
1 Mr. President.
2 I have to follow my colleague
3 from Manhattan, Senator Leichter, and I agree
4 with Senator Maltese. What we did last year was
5 a tremendous thing to do.
6 What, in my opinion, we did is we
7 brought the election laws in New York State from
8 about 1820 up to about 1962. That 140 years
9 that we updated our laws was a marvelous thing
10 to do. The only problem is it's 1997 and we're
11 still 35 years behind the time, and I commend
12 you, Senator Maltese, for the work in getting
13 those arcane little picayune things that we used
14 to throw people off the ballot just like they
15 did in all those other countries at one time,
16 didn't have free elections, just like in the
17 Soviet Union where they used to get 99 percent
18 of the vote and we used to always scoff and say
19 those can't be fair elections and sure enough in
20 New York State we elect 99 percent of the
21 members of the state Legislature every single
22 year and yet we think they're wonderfully fair.
23 I obviously missed my history
24 lesson somewhere along the line but we did come
25 100 years. We updated our laws 100 years.
4972
1 That's a 100-year step. It is properly
2 commended. I new this took some political
3 coalitions to get that done. It's a wonderful
4 thing, but what Senator Leichter is talking
5 about doing is bringing the law from 1962 to
6 1997, to update it to the realities of big
7 money, hard currency that we talked about
8 yesterday -- some of the issues we talked about
9 yesterday, but I'd just caution everybody in
10 this chamber, we cannot fall for the ruse of the
11 magician who says, Look at this hand. Look at
12 this hand. I'm changing the Election Law. I'm
13 eliminating the technical rules that prevent
14 people from getting on the ballots. We
15 eliminated the Board of Estimate from the
16 election laws yesterday. We're doing this which
17 is also a good idea. Look at this. Look at
18 this and in the meantime, at the other hand,
19 we're picking their pocket and perpetrating the
20 kind of election system that we have in this
21 state which just, in my opinion, is simply not
22 fair, not just and doesn't accord with a true
23 vision of democracy.
24 Senator Maltese, I'm going to
25 vote in favor of this bill. I commend you. I
4973
1 encourage you. Believe me, when we show up with
2 an Election Law that's dated 1997 and reflects
3 1997 reality, I will be the first to trumpet
4 that success.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Leichter.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
8 Maltese will yield.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Maltese, do you yield to a question? The
11 Senator yields.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I was
13 just going to make my initial statement and then
14 be at peace, but some of the things you said and
15 Senator Dollinger have really raised some
16 questions in my mind.
17 One of the most outrageous
18 aspects of the whole election and campaign
19 financing system in the state is that it is
20 almost impossible to get records to find out
21 what has happened.
22 We have a state board of election
23 which is totally non-functional and it was
24 created to be non-functional. If you go in
25 there -- and Senator Dollinger thought that in
4974
1 some respects last year we brought the Election
2 Law up to 1962, but if you go to the state board
3 of election, it's still 1820. One of the steps
4 that everybody said we have to take because it's
5 so necessary and it makes such good common sense
6 is the computerization of records.
7 Senator, where -- the session is
8 drawing to a close -- let's hope at least it is
9 but there's so much work to be done and one of
10 them is this computerization of election -- of
11 campaign finance records. Do you know where
12 that bill is?
13 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
14 there were at the time of the drastic changes,
15 exemplary changes that were put into effect last
16 year competitive bills requiring certain
17 limitations and certain limitations on
18 committees and political parties and the -- this
19 house had and still has a piece of legislation
20 but it all depends in these circumstances. We
21 are a legislative deliberative body and it all
22 depends on whose ox is being gored and the piece
23 of legislation that was backed by a majority of
24 the Republicans in this house, they had certain
25 limitations and certain disclosure requirements
4975
1 placed on unions and placed on situations where
2 the disclosure requirements or contribution
3 limitations would be somewhat equivalent on
4 business groups as they would be on union PACs,
5 and so we had a situation where there was
6 disagreement between the two houses and those
7 bills are still -- are still in -- I believe in
8 committee, although I can check, but I think, in
9 fact, we did pass one of those bills in this
10 house, the bill backed by our Majority Leader,
11 Senator Bruno, and myself, but I think that in
12 talking about the computerization of the board,
13 I think that is something that will occur if not
14 this session, certainly in the near future. It
15 is occurring in many counties across the state.
16 It is occurring as funds are appropriated. I
17 believe that there are discussions going on at
18 this time between the Executive and the
19 Legislative Branch as far as some funding to be
20 put aside for computerization, but I know
21 certainly in the city of New York and in upstate
22 counties, as was indicated at a recent meeting
23 of election commissioners, that they are, in
24 effect, computerizing almost all election
25 records. As for computer records, that
4976
1 discussion is still going on. Whether or not it
2 will be done in this session, I don't know.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Leichter.
6 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
7 Maltese would continue to yield.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Maltese, do you continue to yield?
10 Senator Maltese?
11 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, isn't
12 it a fact that, if you want to deal with the
13 computerization of records, you have a bill that
14 provides for that computerization? In this
15 house, the Majority attached, as you just said,
16 limitation on what unions can contribute. Maybe
17 that should be done or maybe it shouldn't be
18 done, but it certainly shouldn't be part of this
19 bill.
20 Isn't it -- Senator Maltese, I'm
21 going to be very blunt. Isn't it true that that
22 was attached by the Majority to defeat computer
23 ization? You didn't want computerization. So
24 you attached a provision that you knew the
25 Assembly would never accept and, in this way,
4977
1 you defeated computerization and we have the
2 mess that we presently have in the state board
3 of election? Isn't that true?
4 SENATOR MALTESE: Senator, I'm
5 shocked that even such an allegation could be
6 made. The so-called "poison pill" approach to
7 government is one that I think is equally
8 deplored by both sides of the aisle.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator,
10 you're right. It's deplored but greatly
11 practiced.
12 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Leichter, excuse me. Are you asking Senator
15 Maltese to yield?
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm making a
17 comment. No. I thank my good friend and I just
18 want to say, Senator, I agree with you that the
19 "poison pill" is greatly deplored and very
20 actively practiced.
21 So let me just make that one
22 example and, again, I don't want to make this a
23 partisan thing. As I said yesterday, I don't
24 think there are any saints. I don't think my
25 party is any more praiseworthy or is any more to
4978
1 be blamed than the other party. I think that
2 we've had this system in this state which
3 started well over 100 years ago that elections
4 was really a matter for the political parties to
5 run, and if you get the Republicans and the
6 Democrats, the two parties to watch each other,
7 you're going to end up with a fair elections
8 system.
9 Well, the fact is very often the
10 Republicans and the Democrats have worked
11 together to gang up against third-party, Senator
12 Maltese, against independents and they certainly
13 have not run the system in the public interest.
14 I've called the state board of
15 elections the toothless pussy cat because it is
16 such an embarrassment. Obvious, evident, clear,
17 conceded, admitted violations of law. They do
18 absolutely nothing.
19 Let me tell you -- and I spent
20 some time this year looking through their
21 records, and so on. They accepted for filing by
22 the Suffolk Republican Party, they filed a
23 campaign finance report where they left off the
24 sums. They listed the names but they didn't put
25 down how much they contributed. The state board
4979
1 of elections accepted that. I think you could
2 go in and file a dead rabbit and they would say,
3 okay. They would stamp it, and so on. They
4 would misfile it as they misfile just about
5 everything else. It's awful. It is just
6 awful. We just shouldn't allow this to happen.
7 Now, we may feel, well, you know,
8 there isn't really that much public pressure on
9 us to do anything about it, but I'll tell you
10 what there is. There's growing public cynicism
11 and we ought to be concerned about this, a
12 cynicism about government, many reasons for it
13 but one of them certainly is because people know
14 that our elections are poorly run, unfairly run
15 in many instances, that big money more and more
16 dominates public discourse and public debate and
17 we who work in this field and whether you're a
18 Republican or Democrat -- I have been here many
19 years. I know people work hard. I know people
20 come here with good intentions. They come here
21 conscientiously -- we do try to accomplish
22 something, whether we agree on many issues or
23 disagree on many issues, but all of that is for
24 naught if the public sees an election system
25 that is so flawed and so riddled with abuse as
4980
1 ours is.
2 Let's do something about it.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
6 act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll.)
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record
12 the negatives and announce the results.
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 48, nays 1,
14 Senator Padavan recorded in the negative.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
16 is passed.
17 The Secretary will continue to
18 read the controversial calendar.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 1037, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 5060, an
21 act to amend the Election Law, in relation to
22 merging election districts.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Maltese, an explanation has been requested of
4981
1 Calendar Number 1037.
2 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr. President,
3 this piece of legislation is at the request of
4 the Election Commissioners Association and the
5 New York State Board of Elections. It is
6 carried in the Assembly by Assemblyman
7 Canestrari and this again is a bill that is -
8 has been agreed upon by the Assembly and the
9 Senate.
10 It takes effect only outside the
11 city of New York because the city of New York
12 has previously -- has previously adopted the
13 same system.
14 The purpose of the bill is to
15 increase the total number of voters permitted to
16 be consolidated for primary special elections.
17 The new technology of digitized polling books
18 allows for easy processing of an increased
19 number of voters.
20 This bill will alleviate the
21 increasing difficulties of finding inspectors to
22 serve. It will enable those boards of elections
23 to consolidate districts that are not very much
24 used and thus be able to utilize less inspection
25 -- inspectors at the polls.
4982
1 It provides that it increases the
2 minimum number of voters who may be consolidated
3 from 100 to 500 and, as I say, it pertains only
4 to counties outside the city of New York and we
5 are advised that it will be significant savings
6 to counties and local municipalities.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
8 any Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
9 (There was no response.)
10 The Secretary will read the last
11 section.
12 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
13 act shall take effect on the 1st day of August.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
19 is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 1132, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 1488, an
22 act to amend the Public Health Law, in relation
23 to public notification of health hazards.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
25 Secretary will read the last section.
4983
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2 act shall take effect on the 120th day.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
4 roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll.)
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 49.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
8 is passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 1135, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2244, an act
11 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law and
12 the Town Law, in relation to the right to
13 practice Forestry Act.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
15 bill aside for the day.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1138, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 3113, an
18 act in relation to authorizing Tier I status for
19 Mary Ann Martin in the New York State and local
20 Employees Retirement System.
21 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside
22 temporarily.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
24 bill aside temporarily.
25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4984
1 1141, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 3472, an
2 act to amend the Social Services Law, in
3 relation to the investigation of Workfare
4 participants.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation,
6 please.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Marchi, an explanation of the bill has been
9 requested.
10 SENATOR MARCHI: Thank you, Mr.
11 President.
12 This amends the Social Services
13 Law in relation to the investigation of welfare
14 participants assigned to work in the care,
15 custody and supervision of children.
16 This would require that prior to
17 their getting a clearer bill that that person be
18 competent to fulfill the assignment, that the
19 person would be fingerprinted to determine his
20 or her criminal history, that the person would
21 be tested for use of a controlled substance,
22 that the person would be free of communicable
23 diseases.
24 I have had no objections to this
25 and I believe the information came out just
4985
1 yesterday or last night that the county of
2 Albany had adopted identical requirements
3 applicable to the county of Albany.
4 So it would seem to me that
5 certainly we want to favor this to ensure the
6 maximum level of protection to children, that we
7 don't come up with some circumstances that might
8 be deleterious when they're functioning as
9 supervisors or monitoring -- carrying out their
10 functions as a result of the requirements that
11 have been placed in the law.
12 So I would hope that this or some
13 variant of this is part of the law.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Paterson.
16 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
17 on this legislation, the need to protect
18 children, particularly situations where we are
19 rendering care and supervision is most paramount
20 and we know that based on a number of stories
21 that we read about in the newspaper and
22 situations that we've observed.
23 If Senator Marchi would yield for
24 a question.
25 SENATOR MARCHI: Yes, Senator, I
4986
1 yield.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Marchi.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, the
5 concern that some of us have about this
6 legislation is that, in spite of the fact that
7 the need to fingerprint and investigate
8 individuals who are going to be participating in
9 child care deserves to be stated and restated,
10 the fact is that the Workfare system that puts
11 the employee into this situation involves a lack
12 of options. In other words, this would be an
13 area in which an individual might be assigned
14 and then at that point they would also be forced
15 to be fingerprinted.
16 My question is, is the assignment
17 to child care something that is automatic? In
18 other words, is it something where the employee
19 has any choice, because if the employee had an
20 option to work somewhere else but prefers to
21 choose the child care service, then at that
22 point the fingerprinting, I think, would be most
23 appropriate, but what I'm afraid of is forcing a
24 person to work in a particular area and then
25 forcing them to be fingerprinted and
4987
1 investigated when, in fact, other than the fact
2 that they may have been a client of social
3 services, they didn't do anything to deserve
4 being fingerprinted or investigated in the first
5 place.
6 SENATOR MARCHI: We're talking
7 about their eligibility for qualification. I
8 would assume that there is an interest on the
9 part of the applicant to put someone who might
10 be unwilling to comply with the provisions but
11 is available for other work. They may have
12 other objections. Perhaps they feel -- they
13 feel that they are not equipped to handle
14 children and provide the necessary guidance, and
15 I should think that the process should -- would
16 naturally elicit that approach in designating
17 someone to do this.
18 So that I think we're down to
19 people who are not unwilling to embrace it. If
20 they are unwilling, it's -- it's -- aside from
21 the fact -- even if they wanted to be
22 fingerprinted, I would imagine the pool would be
23 those people that would -- you know, the only
24 thing I worry about is that there may be
25 circumstances going way back that would enable
4988
1 them really to clear even some of the obstacles
2 that are here, but I don't think we can overplay
3 -- and that was probably what persuaded the
4 county of Albany toward adopting this very same
5 legislation -- the fear that we're dealing with
6 children, young future adults, future men and
7 women with some hazards that are unnecessary and
8 the pool is large enough, really, to select
9 those who are willing to go through the process.
10 The previous provision -- I was
11 looking at the last provision but any person
12 with a condition prior to the assignment to work
13 involving -- and then that process takes place.
14 I really -- I really think that
15 weighing all the factors -- and I can see
16 circumstances that -- remote, but I believe that
17 we're jeopardizing -- when it's administered on
18 a large scale basis, we are jeopardizing
19 introducing an element that's not very
20 reassuring in the supervision of children. So I
21 would -- and the fact that the county of Albany
22 -- I don't think there's any particular
23 persuasion politically that moved them in that
24 direction except for the same concerns that move
25 us.
4989
1 So I would hope that, Mr.
2 President, this bill prevails and that's about
3 it, Senator.
4 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
5 President.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Paterson.
8 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
9 Senator Marchi.
10 Mr. President, on the bill. I
11 want to thank Senator Marchi for clearing that
12 up. It's certainly his intention to make sure
13 that no one that doesn't care about kids is
14 taking care of children.
15 My recommendation is that perhaps
16 we take a strong look at perhaps amending this
17 bill because I didn't see anything in the
18 language that gives the worker the option as to
19 whether or not they're going to work in the
20 child care area and my concern, therefore, is
21 even stronger for the children than it is for
22 the worker that we not have people who may not
23 like children or they may not have any
24 understanding of how to supervise them, that
25 they not be in that particular area and in New
4990
1 York City, certainly -- there certainly has been
2 a complaint that people are being assigned to
3 areas where they have no experience and also
4 that they have no interest and where it doesn't
5 involve children, we might create that kind of a
6 scenario but certainly when we're talking about
7 caring for children, we would want to think
8 about that, and so I would just suggest that
9 perhaps Senator Marchi consider putting his
10 stated concerns that we just heard into the
11 legislation so that we create some option for
12 the employee. Otherwise, when someone goes on
13 Workfare, they get assigned into the child care
14 field and then subjected to the type of
15 investigation and fingerprinting that they may
16 not have wanted to endure because they may not
17 have wanted to go into that area and it just
18 exposes, in some respects, some information
19 about them that doesn't really mean that they
20 can't work. It just means that they can't work
21 in a certain area which they may not have wanted
22 to do anyway.
23 So it's really just a thought
24 that we would like to contribute to this whole
25 process, a suggestion that perhaps we reconsider
4991
1 this because we really come into some areas of
2 constitutionality when there's coercion to work
3 and then coercion for one to be subjected to the
4 types of investigations and law enforcement
5 procedures that, you know, would be more common
6 to a person who had been arrested or in any way
7 investigated for committing a crime.
8 In the area of children, let me
9 just restate that it would probably be most
10 important to clearly delineate that we want
11 people who would think that this is something
12 they could do and something they could do well.
13 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Gold.
16 SENATOR GOLD: Would my friend,
17 Senator Marchi, yield to a question?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Marchi, do you yield to a question? The Senator
20 yields.
21 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, we do not
22 have a law, do we, that requires this kind of a
23 check for anybody who works in this area, do
24 we?
25 SENATOR MARCHI: No.
4992
1 SENATOR GOLD: And, Senator,
2 we -
3 SENATOR MARCHI: Not that I am
4 aware of.
5 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah. And,
6 Senator, if you'll yield to a question. We
7 don't have any law that requires the criminal
8 background check of people who are in Workfare
9 generally, do we?
10 SENATOR MARCHI: No.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, this is
12 my problem with the bill and it's not that much
13 different than Senator Paterson, but I want to
14 -- I want to make sure about it.
15 The bill starts out and says that
16 a person must be competent to fulfill the
17 assignment. Senator, I think that there's no
18 argument with that. That's what this is all
19 about, but what I'm concerned about, number one,
20 anyone could go into this program and say, We
21 want to get a criminal background check on
22 Jones. Call him in and tell him that we're
23 going to assign him into this particular program
24 and he must submit. So I see that as a method
25 of printing people, as Senator Paterson pointed
4993
1 out, but since there's no choice, you could use
2 this as a method to print people who otherwise
3 you would have absolutely no right to print, but
4 the thing which concerns me most, Senator Marchi
5 -- and to some extent this is similar to some
6 of the bills we've had where it's been argued on
7 this floor in the HIV/AIDS area that by doing
8 certain testing, it tells you nothing. I mean,
9 supposing you had an individual who has never
10 been in trouble with the law at all but who
11 really sincerely hates children and, as a matter
12 of fact, that individual might be a college
13 graduate. Might be any one of a million things
14 which on paper qualifies the person. Why do we
15 want to have a situation where we have people,
16 first of all, where we set up tests which may
17 not tell us anything because you can have people
18 who would -- with no criminal record who would
19 be incompetent in the real world in handling
20 children because they don't want to do it and
21 not have this way out that Senator Paterson has
22 been talking about. So that at least we have
23 people in there who, by choice, are making the
24 decision they may like to go into that field.
25 SENATOR MARCHI: In the -- in the
4994
1 broadest possible setting that you said, that
2 could be a case where -- but a certain
3 presumption that they would be operating
4 lawfully. Teachers and teachers' aides now have
5 to go through that process if they're doing that
6 but they're getting out of the picture and
7 returning to people that -- competency certainly
8 if they're alienated by the presence of children
9 -- would not have to go through the rest of it.
10 I would suggest that we proceed
11 with this because it is a matter of delicacy and
12 I don't -- I believe that the Albany legislation
13 is on all fours with the legislation that I
14 introduced. It was introduced incidentally just
15 shortly after we had started the ball rolling on
16 this piece and -
17 SENATOR GOLD: I'm sorry.
18 SENATOR MARCHI: -- certainly if
19 a variant comes up in conference and the
20 Assembly goes along, I would be available to it,
21 but at this point, just weighing the pros and
22 cons, I have to defer and go on the side of the
23 safety of the children that are affected and I
24 just -- granted, you know, there's an exception
25 to almost any rule that you can possibly
4995
1 conjure, but I think the process as is is
2 adequate. If we have something better to show,
3 we'll attack it, but I -
4 SENATOR GOLD: Let me phrase one
5 direct question, Senator.
6 SENATOR MARCHI: Yes.
7 SENATOR GOLD: If we're concerned
8 about people who have custody and supervision of
9 children, why don't we demand criminal
10 investigations? Why do we assume that the only
11 people who should have criminal investigations
12 are people who are part of a Workfare program?
13 SENATOR MARCHI: Teachers and
14 teachers' aides who are in charge have that
15 requirement now. A background check has to be
16 included. So I don't see that as a fatal
17 block. We're extending it not on a very
18 widespread basis but just on those circumstances
19 and I wouldn't want it to -
20 SENATOR GOLD: Well, Senator, if
21 you'll yield to -
22 SENATOR MARCHI: If children are
23 involved -- and there may be circumstances in
24 their -- in the points delineated in the bill
25 that might constitute a risk or a hazard for
4996
1 children, I think that's what probably persuaded
2 the Albany County action.
3 SENATOR GOLD: Well, if the
4 Senator will yield to a question.
5 SENATOR MARCHI: Yes.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Marchi continues to yield?
8 SENATOR MARCHI: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 Senator continues to yield.
11 SENATOR GOLD: Senator, I can
12 respect Albany County and, you know, in this
13 Legislature, Senator, we vote a couple thousand
14 times a year and we don't agree on every issue.
15 It doesn't mean we lose respect for one
16 another. I don't happen to perhaps agree with
17 Albany County. I don't see where the law is,
18 but the point is this. My question is a simple
19 one. This has drug testing. From my
20 understanding, we don't drug test anybody else
21 and what I'm concerned about is the concept of
22 constantly setting up enemies.
23 Now, you are a fair person and
24 you wouldn't do something to set up enemies but
25 the fact is this bill does it. This bill tells
4997
1 you that, if you have anyone who's not on
2 Workfare, we can presume they have no criminal
3 background and we can assume that they are not
4 on drugs but, if they're on Workfare, this says
5 they have to prove they are not on drugs and
6 they're not criminals, and that, Senator Marchi,
7 puts these people as different classes of
8 citizens and the fact that they may need some
9 kind of help doesn't make them a different class
10 of citizen.
11 This is a state where, as of
12 August 1996, we had over 1.1 million people
13 unemployed. 520,000 of those people were not on
14 welfare. About 616,000 are on welfare, which
15 means when we tell our welfare population to go
16 out and get a job, they're standing behind
17 520,000 of our citizens who can't find a job or
18 on welfare. I think we got to stop setting up
19 enemies.
20 These people are in a Workfare
21 program. It doesn't make them criminals. It
22 doesn't make them drug addicts. This law
23 separates them and says that, if you're in that
24 program and you want to work with children, you
25 need that testing, whether you're competent or
4998
1 not, and if you're not in that program, you
2 don't have to have that testing and you may be
3 less competent.
4 I don't argue with the concept of
5 trying to make sure people are competent, and I
6 don't argue with the concept to make sure people
7 are safe, children particularly, but I don't see
8 why, if we're concerned about the children, that
9 the rule isn't aimed at the children in securing
10 them rather than making a different kind of
11 citizen out of somebody on Workfare.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
13 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
14 Senator Marchi, on the bill.
15 SENATOR MARCHI: I wouldn't even
16 mind respectfully to say that these same rules
17 apply to us. We all have to submit, all of us,
18 the whole chamber, I mean, but we are
19 considering the welfare of the children and we
20 just want a continuity under the present
21 auspices or the past auspices moving into this
22 Workfare that the same rigid test be applied and
23 hopefully will inure to the benefit.
24 This is -- I'm not -- certainly I
25 respect your judgment. I respect it as being -
4999
1 you have a genuine concern for the children and
2 you have this broad concept that you've
3 described, and I respect you for that. I have
4 no quarrel, but I feel that those of us who can
5 vote for this will be opting for something that
6 is needed if we're going to entrust thousands,
7 tens of thousands of children to people who
8 perhaps may present problems.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Leichter, why do you rise?
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
13 Marchi would yield.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Leichter. Senator Leichter, I'm not not
16 recognizing you, but a colleague I have overseen
17 here would like -- and is on the list prior to
18 your being recognized.
19 So the Chair would recognize
20 Senator Oppenheimer, who's been very patient in
21 waiting for an opportunity to speak on the
22 bill.
23 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: What a
24 gentleman. I mean, these other gentlemen have
25 been hopping up and I have been very sedate back
5000
1 here.
2 A couple of thoughts come to
3 mind. First of all, the selectivity of drawing
4 out certain groups that need fingerprinting and
5 drug testing, I think is offensive as has been
6 mentioned earlier. I have often thought because
7 we seem to be drug testing or fingerprinting
8 certain industries, certain groups, certain, you
9 know, workers, that it seems to say something
10 about these people, that we require
11 fingerprinting and drug testing for this group.
12 It has occurred to me -- and I
13 offer this as a suggestion -- that perhaps what
14 we ought to be doing in our state is
15 fingerprinting and footprinting all newborns
16 because then we would not be saying this group
17 of people is a lesser group or requires further
18 criminal check or drug testing -- well, that's a
19 separate issue, but the fingerprinting and
20 footprinting done in -- at birth, I think is
21 something that is a value to everyone. First of
22 all, we are now doing it with our youngsters,
23 small children, so that if they get lost, we are
24 able to have some way to track them and find the
25 children, but I do find it offensive that
5001
1 particular groups are singled out and made to
2 feel like they are lesser people or of lesser
3 quality.
4 The other issue I would like to
5 bring up along with this bill -- it's not a part
6 of this bill -- is the concern within the child
7 care field -- the concern within the child care
8 field, that the people we are taking in Workfare
9 and others are not receiving the kind of
10 training that should be mandatory for anyone
11 dealing with young children.
12 We now know after seeing the
13 federal report which came out a month ago how
14 vitally important it is to have maximum
15 stimulation and caring for children up to the
16 age of three and four. To assume that this is
17 knowledge that is simply inborn is absurd.
18 The people within the field are
19 very, very concerned that these child care
20 workers that are coming on-stream are coming on
21 without any background or any training and that
22 this has to be made an integral part and
23 certainly if Workfare is forcing people into the
24 roles of child care providers, there couldn't be
25 anything that is more worrisome because these
5002
1 are not people who even start with a caring and
2 a concern necessarily for children, but even
3 with that caring and concern and love for small
4 children, it is absolutely essential that we
5 have some kind of training and oversight
6 component in the care of our smallest.
7 Thanks.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Leichter.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
11 Marchi would yield, please.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Marchi, do you yield to a question from Senator
14 Leichter? The Senator yields.
15 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, would
16 you support a bill that anyone whose work
17 involves the care, custody or supervision of a
18 child be fingerprinted and drug tested?
19 SENATOR MARCHI: I would support
20 a bill, Senator. I would go much further. I
21 believe some sessions ago I even introduced a
22 bill requiring every single person in the United
23 States to be fingerprinted. You could be -- you
24 could be on a highway and they strip you of your
25 credentials and they don't know who you are and
5003
1 they may administer assistance that would be
2 detrimental to you but if we had swift methods
3 of establishing identity -- I don't see anything
4 demeaning. I mean, I was faced with finger
5 printing. I'm certain you were too. There's no
6 -- no sense of hostility in that -- in
7 privileged circumstances of service, most of it
8 of a public nature but not necessarily all of
9 it, that are -- this identity is most important
10 and if part of that is the associated problems
11 that would be revelatory in any decent
12 investigation, I think it's the -- I think it's
13 a permissible limit that we can go to to protect
14 children and that's first and foremost. I mean,
15 we have no adequate substitute here that we're
16 considering, and I hope that if the Assembly
17 takes this up, as I have reason to believe that
18 they may, that if something emerges, I -
19 certainly perhaps a better variant that I have
20 not -
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President.
22 SENATOR MARCHI: -- state my
23 ability will come up but I -- really, I think
24 this is bedrock as far as the safety of the
25 children who are entrusted to the care and
5004
1 custody of these people.
2 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
3 if Senator Marchi will continue to yield.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Marchi, do you continue to yield? The Senator
6 continues to yield.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I'm
8 not -- I'm just exploring ground that Senator
9 Gold, I think rightfully, opened up. If, as I
10 know it is, your concern is the care of
11 children, certainly fingerprinting everybody in
12 the United States has absolutely nothing to do
13 with this. So that's a totally different issue.
14 SENATOR MARCHI: Then we wouldn't
15 be having this discussion.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me.
17 Let me just finish. Senator Oppenheimer's
18 point, very well made, really doesn't deal with
19 the issue that I think Senator Gold raised which
20 concerns this bill, which is why do you take
21 this one class? If your concern is children,
22 why don't you say that everybody who has the
23 care or custody or supervision of a child has to
24 be drug tested as you provide in this bill
25 people on welfare have to be? Can you answer
5005
1 that to me?
2 SENATOR MARCHI: Unless you feel
3 that if you call in a baby-sitter which is -- I
4 have to go to grandchildren if I have to think
5 of that, that you have the little girl next door
6 that is a teenager and should be drug tested, if
7 she comes in and baby-sits.
8 You know, we can -- the reductio
9 ad absurdum are -- frequently are not
10 impossible. They do happen, but I think this is
11 an important first step, and I hope the Assembly
12 addresses this issue and perhaps they may come
13 up with a better variant. There's no pride of
14 authorship here except that I feel that it does
15 meet a need and I hope that most of you can
16 support it without -- even though I respect your
17 sensitivities as they have been formulated.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr. President,
19 just -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Leichter.
22 SENATOR LEICHTER: Just on the
23 bill.
24 Senator Marchi, I know your
25 concern for children and, in fact, your concern
5006
1 for everybody and the very fair and very
2 compassionate way that you approach it, but I
3 really think in this instance, Senator, you're
4 stigmatizing a group in really a highly
5 offensive manner.
6 If you want to say that for the
7 protection of children, I want anybody who works
8 with children who has their care to be
9 fingerprinted, check their records -- and we do
10 that in some instances, by the way, as you know
11 -- but I also want them checked, drug tested.
12 You want to do it across the board. I may not
13 agree with you, but at least you're not creating
14 invidious distinctions, but if you say there are
15 people on welfare and now they're going to -- as
16 part of their Workfare, they're going to be
17 asked to work with children and these people are
18 more likely to be a threat to children, they're
19 more likely to be drug addicted, I think you're
20 stigmatizing this group and I think very, very
21 unfairly -- and, frankly, I think you would be
22 the last person in this house that would
23 stigmatize any group, and I'm sure that your
24 concern for children prompted you to put in this
25 bill, but I think on examination, Senator, I
5007
1 really think it is offensive.
2 We have people on welfare for all
3 sorts of reasons, good people, honest people,
4 fair people -- yes, there's some people on
5 welfare that are drug addicted as there are
6 people not on welfare who are drug addicted but
7 to say that these people have to go through a
8 scrutiny, a check that nobody else in our
9 society goes through, that, I think, is really
10 offensive. I don't think there's any data that
11 would justify this, and I would strongly urge
12 you to really look at this bill, withdraw it
13 because I don't think anything as far as the
14 protection of children justifies this sort of
15 labeling a group, really branding them in a way
16 that, as a group, you are suspect. We're going
17 to fingerprint you. We're going to check your
18 records. We're going to drug test you because
19 you are people that we can't trust with
20 children. I don't think there's a justification
21 for that.
22 I'm sorry to say this, but I
23 think it's a bill that's offensive.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
25 Secretary will read the last section.
5008
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2 act shall take effect on the 90th day.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
4 roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll.)
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record
7 the negatives and announce the results.
8 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
9 the negative on Calendar Number 1141 are
10 Senators Gold, Leichter, Montgomery, Paterson,
11 Rosado. Ayes 50, nays 5.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
13 is passed.
14 Secretary will continue to call
15 the controversial calendar.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 1145, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 4405, an act
18 authorizing the implementation of a shared
19 service pilot project.
20 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Rath, an explanation has been requested by
23 Senator Paterson.
24 SENATOR RATH: Mr. President,
25 this bill puts in place a pilot project which,
5009
1 to my mind, seeing as I'm the prime sponsor of
2 the bill, obviously I think this is one of the
3 answers that we are going to be able to provide
4 to the property taxpayers of New York State.
5 The property tax issue has been a
6 number one issue not only of the Governor's, the
7 Senate's, the Assembly, there are very few that
8 don't have that at the top of their priority
9 list and what's happened in New York State is we
10 have a myriad of small governments that are
11 taxing and duplicating, taxing and duplicating
12 and we found last year, as we started looking at
13 governance projects among municipalities, that
14 there were many, many areas where the
15 municipalities could share services and save
16 dollars.
17 It came to my attention, however,
18 that many of the dollars that we spend, of
19 course, are in the school districts and so the
20 question then was can we get school districts
21 and municipalities to share services, and so I
22 instituted a pilot project in the 60th District
23 which has been extraordinary successful, towns
24 and school districts sharing. If you're
25 interested in some of the examples as to how
5010
1 much they saved the taxpayer, what the cost of
2 the projects were -- and let me be clear that it
3 is a pilot project in my district and the
4 $20,000, which was the upper amount available to
5 the municipalities and school districts that
6 share it, the upper limit was $20,000. Those
7 $20,000 were not to be used for program studies.
8 They were to be used for implementation, moving
9 forward in hard kinds of activities that both
10 would have had to do, like synthetic natural gas
11 station, rather than build two, build one, that
12 kind of project.
13 So as we have been successful in
14 the 60th District, I am hopeful that you all
15 will agree with me that this project should move
16 statewide on a pilot. We do have Assembly
17 sponsors who are extremely enthusiastic about
18 the bill, and I urge your support.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Paterson.
21 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
22 I have a couple of questions, if Senator Rath
23 would yield.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Rath, do you yield to a question from Senator
5011
1 Paterson?
2 SENATOR RATH: Surely.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Senator yields.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, is
6 the granting procedure extended to programs that
7 are already in existence, or do they have to be
8 new programs to fall under this designation?
9 SENATOR RATH: One of the
10 questions that we were asked early on, as long
11 as a school and a municipality -- and we limited
12 it to towns because I go across counties in my
13 district, so we didn't get to counties, but our
14 opinion -- and we were moving, and I can't say
15 it was informally because we worked with Senator
16 Sheffer in the governance project at UB, estab
17 lished a small council that made the decisions
18 about who -- how the grants would flow and also
19 provided the credibility on evaluating how many
20 tax dollars were saved. We determined that,
21 yes, they would be eligible as long as it was a
22 school and a municipality.
23 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you, Mr.
24 President.
25 Thank Senator Rath.
5012
1 My final question relates to the
2 interaction between the municipalities and the
3 school boards. I see that there has to be a
4 consultation between the school board and the
5 municipality. What if two separate
6 municipalities were endeavoring to put forth a
7 program or perhaps even two school districts,
8 would they be eligible?
9 SENATOR RATH: What we found,
10 Senator Paterson, was that as long as we kept
11 the schools and the municipalities talking with
12 each other -- and they could have two or three
13 school districts in two or three towns. In
14 fact, one came to us on the first round of
15 grants and was ineligible because it wasn't
16 broad based enough. It was -- two school
17 districts wanted to put something together and
18 they didn't have a town in it. So what happened
19 is we moved forward -- or they moved forward,
20 went back to the drawing board, brought in a
21 town, a village and another school district
22 because it was a large town of Amherst which
23 encompasses several school districts and so what
24 they did is they got the town of Amherst in it,
25 several school districts and the village of
5013
1 Williamsville, and so the answer to your
2 question is yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Paterson.
5 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
6 if Senator Rath would yield for one last
7 question.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Senator continues to yield.
10 SENATOR PATERSON: In New York
11 City, for instance, because it is a city, would
12 this legislation allow New York City, for
13 instance, to consult with a school district in
14 Nassau County with the desire to put forth a
15 program?
16 SENATOR RATH: Some of the
17 details would be worked out by the council that
18 would be established with the chairman of the
19 Local Governments Committee in the Assembly or
20 their designee and myself or my designee plus
21 appropriate appointments from the Senate, the
22 Assembly and the Governor to work out details
23 like that, Senator. I see every possibility of
24 where there's duplication and if there's
25 duplication between the city of New York and
5014
1 Nassau County, I would think that they could
2 certainly talk with each other. There are no
3 jurisdictional boundary lines that are talked
4 about in the bill, and I think that the reason
5 for a pilot project in the state would be to
6 show forth creative and innovative solutions to
7 what we now have as overlapping taxing
8 jurisdictions which are causing property taxes
9 in the state of New York, as you know, to remain
10 high.
11 The goal of the bill is to
12 stabilize or reduce property taxes and the
13 steering committee or council, I guess we call
14 it, that would be established would have as
15 their prime responsibility to show us the
16 savings and in that popular movie lately, I
17 guess it was Jerry whatever, "Show me the
18 money", that's what we want. We want to see the
19 money that's saved for the property tax.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Paterson.
22 SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
23 Senator Rath.
24 Mr. President, on the bill.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5015
1 Paterson, on the bill.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: There is just
3 the concern that I have that there doesn't
4 appear to be any money in the budget for this,
5 but the answers to my questions were quite
6 satisfactory. The program seems to be fine. I
7 just -- with this admonition. I hope that the
8 budget will allow for the resources to fund it.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is there
10 any other Senator wishing to speak on the bill?
11 (There was no response.)
12 Hearing none, the Secretary will
13 read the last section.
14 THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
15 act shall take effect immediately.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
17 roll.
18 (The Secretary called the roll.)
19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
21 is passed.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 1149, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print Number
24 4917, an act to amend the Civil Practice Law and
25 Rules, in relation to prisoner litigation
5016
1 reform.
2 SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Nozzolio, an explanation has been requested of
5 Calendar Number 1149, explanation requested by
6 the Deputy Minority Leader, Senator Paterson.
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, Mr.
8 President.
9 This bill establishes a filing
10 fee in the Court of Claims with provisions for
11 partial payment for the indigent, in an effort
12 to ensure equity for those who are filing civil
13 litigation in our state courts for claims
14 against the taxpayers.
15 This filing fee and requirement
16 of exhaustion of administrative remedies are
17 processes and procedures which every citizen in
18 this state must proceed under when the measure
19 -- when a measure is brought to civil litiga
20 tion. We're asking for actually establishing
21 the same type of process for prison inmates
22 which would drastically reduce costs for those
23 inmates for bringing their claim as opposed to
24 private citizens who must pay a significantly
25 higher fee. We're asking for a fee to be
5017
1 established through this legislation.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Waldon.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Thanks very
5 much, Mr. President.
6 Would the gentleman yield to a
7 question or two?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Would
9 Senator Nozzolio yield?
10 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
11 President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 yields.
14 SENATOR WALDON: Senator
15 Nozzolio, if I as a private citizen outside the
16 prison, non-prisoner, desires to bring an
17 action, is it your understanding that I would
18 have to withstand the costs of that action?
19 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
20 if Senator Waldon wishes to sue the taxpayers of
21 the state in the Court of Claims, Senator Waldon
22 would have to pay a $175 filing fee as would
23 every other citizen in this state. This bill
24 requires a $50 filing fee for inmates. Again,
25 Senator, non-prisoner litigants like yourself
5018
1 would be paying $175. We're asking inmates who
2 bring these suits to pay $50.
3 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President,
4 would the Senator continue to yield?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Nozzolio continue to yield?
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
8 President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 continues to yield.
11 SENATOR WALDON: Senator, I don't
12 want to burden you with a lot of unnecessary
13 rhetoric, but in order to make this point, I
14 have to pursue this course of action. We've
15 been down this road before, so pardon me if you
16 will for traveling that same journey, but to
17 make the points that I need to make regarding
18 this proposal, I must do this.
19 Will you please tell us if you
20 know what the normal amount of money earned on a
21 daily basis is by those prisoners who have jobs?
22 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, you
23 asking me the normal amount of average wage
24 earned by a laborer in this state? Are you
25 asking me another question?
5019
1 SENATOR WALDON: By prisoners who
2 have jobs, to your knowledge, what is the amount
3 of money they normally earn on a daily basis?
4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Inmates who
5 are working, Senator -- again, we talked about
6 this just last week. Inmates who are working in
7 this state, and all inmates are not required to
8 work -- I'd like to have a bill that's before
9 you that would require inmates to work -- but
10 those inmates who do have initiative make up to
11 $5 per day. Of course, that's above their -
12 the other cost of meals, cost of housing, cost
13 of cable television, and the like, that inmates
14 get free benefits there, other things that
15 inmates receive. Those who are working receive
16 a wage of up to $5 per day.
17 SENATOR WALDON: Would the
18 gentleman continue to yield, Mr. President?
19 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
20 President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 continues to yield.
23 SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr.
24 President. Thank you, Senator Nozzolio.
25 Senator, those who do not have
5020
1 jobs, for example, some of the prisoners are ill
2 and unable to work, some choose not to work. Do
3 they have less rights under this nation's rule
4 of law concept than those who have jobs, who are
5 all -
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
7 those who choose not to work for whatever reason
8 vote it away. That doesn't mean they don't have
9 income from outside sources. Their family may
10 have income. What this measure does is say that
11 those inmates, like Chaka Zulu, who is in jail
12 for murder and with weapons possession, who has
13 filed 347 lawsuits so far -- name Chaka Zulu -
14 or Douglas Lee, murder and attempted arson, who
15 filed 216 lawsuits, Henry Latham, in for sexual
16 abuse and attempted sodomy, 126 lawsuits, Kevin
17 Alleyne for robbery, Anthony Gill for
18 manslaughter and stolen property, Jory Lawrence
19 for rape and sodomy, all those inmates who are
20 now filing hundreds and hundreds of lawsuits,
21 paying no fee whatsoever to access the court
22 system, we're focusing on those inmates who are
23 obviously abusing the system.
24 Now, those who may have a
25 legitimate civil grievance -- civil grievance -
5021
1 I should underscore this measure does not apply
2 to any type of litigation that results from an
3 individual's incarceration or their conviction
4 or their appeal for that conviction. We're
5 talking only civil litigation here. When these
6 inmates access the court, we're saying you need
7 to pay a filing fee if you have the money, those
8 who are determined to have a claim, ensuring
9 that inmates -- and I think that this is the
10 essence of your question, Senator -- ensuring
11 that those who are -- those inmates who have a
12 meritorious claim should not be denied the right
13 to bring such action due to the lack of
14 inability to pay a filing fee.
15 I think, Senator, may I interpret
16 that as the essence of your question. Those
17 inmates who have not the ability to pay, what
18 would happen, that what we're saying is that
19 those who do not have the money in their
20 account, those that do not have those resources,
21 that there will be efforts as outlined by this
22 legislation to deal with indigence and there
23 will be a system so that those would not be
24 paying, those who do not have those funds and
25 are determined indigent, do not have to pay the
5022
1 fee.
2 SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President,
3 would the gentleman continue to yield?
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield?
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 continues to yield.
9 SENATOR WALDON: As I understand
10 what you said to this moment, Senator, then this
11 applies to only those inmates who file most of
12 the suits. Your interest and emphasis seems to
13 be only on those who file multiple suits, so is
14 this proposal only for those who file multiple
15 suits?
16 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: No, Senator,
17 this doesn't deal with -- certainly our concern
18 is with the -- those who are abusing the court
19 system in an obvious fashion, and I could detail
20 for you those types of cases that are so
21 egregious that they would make your hair stand
22 on end. Matter of fact, one of the cases was
23 for a bad haircut that an inmate decided the
24 haircut that he received at the prison barber
25 shop gave him a headache, so he decided to
5023
1 access the courts at your expense and the
2 expense of all the taxpayers of the state,
3 access the court without a filing fee to screw
4 the taxpayers because of his bad haircut.
5 Now, Senator, that's the type of
6 litigation we're talking about here. That's the
7 type of essence of decision to put up a filing
8 fee because very clearly those inmates who are
9 engaging in a hobby -- you can't play golf in
10 prison. You can do a lot of other things, bowl,
11 some prisons actually have bowling alleys. You
12 can watch color cable TV. You can do a lot of
13 things, but some of inmates decide that this is
14 their sport, this is their recreation, and
15 they're doing it at the taxpayers' expense.
16 We're trying to say to those
17 recreational claimants, It's time to stop.
18 Let's have a filing fee; let's put it on the
19 books. Let's charge those inmates for this type
20 of litigation and that's why we're before us
21 today with this very sensible approach, Senator,
22 to solving the problem.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
24 Waldon.
25 SENATOR WALDON: Senator continue
5024
1 to yield?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield.
4 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
5 President. Senator continues to yield.
6 SENATOR WALDON: Senator
7 Nozzolio, do you have any figures before us that
8 you can show to those in the chamber of how many
9 suits that are filed versus how many of those
10 are adjudged frivolous of those that are filed?
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, the
12 Attorney General has a report that he has issued
13 that indicates approximately 95 percent of all
14 inmate suits are eventually dismissed by the
15 courts.
16 SENATOR WALDON: Would the
17 gentleman continue to yield?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield?
20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Mr.
21 President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 continues to yield.
24 SENATOR WALDON: In that number,
25 was there a famous or infamous case of the
5025
1 peanut butter case. Are you familiar with that
2 case? Was it also in the report the beige
3 versus the white towel, and was it also in that
4 report the case of the salad bar claim; are you
5 familiar with those?
6 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Well, Senator,
7 is that the case where the cop killer sued for 4
8 million dollars because the prisoner -- because
9 the prison allegedly served soapy milk; is that
10 the case you're talking about? Is that the -
11 SENATOR WALDON: I'm talking
12 about -- (Unintelligible talking over exchange.)
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
14 Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Please, we can't hear
15 the phone. Senator Waldon, if you would just
16 give Senator Nozzolio an opportunity to respond
17 I'd appreciate it, and then if you have another
18 question you want to ask, that's fine.
19 SENATOR WALDON: I apologize.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: O.K.
21 Senator Nozzolio, would you finish with your
22 answer?
23 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes, Senator.
24 I just got some advice from my counsel, and
25 yes.
5026
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Waldon, you asking him to continue to yield?
3 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes.
4 SENATOR WALDON: Yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator,
6 do you continue to yield?
7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 continues to yield.
10 SENATOR WALDON: Just for the
11 record, I asked about the peanut butter case
12 which was a case where someone ordered peanut
13 butter. The wrong peanut butter was delivered.
14 He asked that it be taken away and the right
15 peanut butter be returned; the wrong peanut
16 butter was taken away, the right peanut butter
17 was not returned but because of his making an
18 issue he never received the right peanut butter
19 and I believe he was transferred that very same
20 night. Somebody decided that, for the fact -
21 the mere fact that he brought up the issue of
22 having the wrong peanut butter delivered merited
23 transfer.
24 In regard to the towels, it was a
25 situation where a family had sent a gift to a
5027
1 prisoner and the gift was confiscated, and he
2 made an issue about the gift being confiscated
3 and he -- and the result was that he was
4 punished.
5 In regard to the salad bar claim
6 it wasn't just the salad, it was the rodents and
7 the infestation in the food from the rodents and
8 the fact that the prisoner made an allegation
9 about that, he ended up being punished.
10 Did these matters appear in the
11 Attorney General's report?
12 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
13 in response to that, I think it was a question.
14 Yes, Senator, the peanut butter case you
15 referred to is in the Attorney General's report
16 and the wrong peanut butter was either crunchy
17 or smooth, I'm not sure which one, but the
18 inmate decided he didn't like crunchy or smooth,
19 I'm not familiar with all the facts, but it was
20 either crunchy or smooth, Senator, and the
21 inmate decided to sue because he was given the
22 wrong peanut butter.
23 Senator, what we're talking about
24 is the 300 suits out of 301 that are not
25 meritorious, those, whether it's chunky or
5028
1 smooth, whether it's a gift from home which in
2 many cases can be drugs, they may receive
3 contraband, such and the like, with those
4 meritorious claims, Senator, the courts can make
5 that determination.
6 What we're saying here simply is,
7 in order for an inmate to access the courts,
8 they should pay less than one-third of what
9 every other citizen must pay in this state to
10 get the same type of access to the same courts.
11 SENATOR WALDON: On the bill, Mr.
12 President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Waldon, on the bill.
15 SENATOR WALDON: It may appear
16 that this is an exercise in futility when I ask
17 my colleagues questions about these very real
18 issues, but I assure you I would not waste your
19 time or the time of the people of the state of
20 New York with frivolous activities. I believe
21 this is the nature of law, that the rule of law
22 is paramount, that if the President of the
23 United States can be forced to respond to his
24 behavior prior to his presidency, and he is the
25 highest elected official in this nation, if he
5029
1 is subject to the scrutiny of the law, so that
2 there will be an equal and level playing field
3 for all the citizens of this great nation, then
4 those who are at the lowest rung of the socio
5 economic ladder should also have a right when
6 they have a proper grievance for it to be
7 heard.
8 It wasn't about chunky peanut
9 butter or smooth peanut butter. It was about
10 whether or not someone who has a valid grievance
11 has a right to be heard even in that enclosed,
12 totally controlled environment that is a
13 prison. Obviously this prisoner did not. He
14 paid for, with the little money that he had, the
15 peanut butter. He had his peanut butter taken
16 away, and this may cause some of you to chuckle
17 but, when you are doing hard time, peanut butter
18 may make the difference. The peanut butter was
19 confiscated. The right peanut butter was not
20 returned and because he bitched, he was removed
21 and transferred that night from the prison that
22 he was in to another.
23 Is that fair? Is that the proper
24 grievance procedure? Should someone have that
25 kind of control over another one's life where
5030
1 there is no opportunity to be heard? I think
2 not.
3 I think for us to require that
4 they pay the fee is ludicrous -- is ludicrous.
5 If you want to require them to pay the fee,
6 let's raise the salaries. If you want to
7 require them to pay the fee let's ensure that
8 they have a proper form and forum for their
9 grievances. Fascism works in other places. It
10 works very well. I don't believe we should
11 permit Fascism to function that well in this
12 nation, and whether or not we want to recognize
13 it or not, we do have a police state that is so
14 in control of our lives if we are not bordering
15 on Fascism, we're certainly tinkering with it.
16 I would urge my colleagues to
17 vote against this. I would urge my colleagues
18 to recognize that this is a nation of law. I
19 would urge my colleagues to recognize that the
20 rule of law has always been paramount in America
21 and that we should subscribe to those things
22 which absolutely and unequivocally promote the
23 rule of law in this nation.
24 This approach does not. It
25 fails. It is flawed, and I would encourage
5031
1 everyone to vote no on this despite the
2 protestations of my colleague on the other side
3 of the aisle.
4 Thank you, Mr. President.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Montgomery.
7 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
8 President. I wonder if Senator Nozzolio will
9 yield for a question?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Nozzolio, do you yield for a question from
12 Senator Montgomery?
13 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes.
14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you,
15 Senator Nozzolio.
16 Senator Nozzolio, there is -- I
17 have a memo in front of me from the Prisoners'
18 Legal Services, and they discuss in one
19 paragraph the problem with how the Attorney
20 General actually counts the cases. It seems
21 that prior to a case actually being processed,
22 there is a notice of intent to sue the state,
23 but there are a large majority of these notices
24 that die at that level, that they really are not
25 pursued any further, but nonetheless the
5032
1 Attorney General counts those notices as if they
2 were actual filings to go into a full-fledged
3 lawsuit.
4 Is that what you're actually
5 counting as -- as the large number of claims or
6 lawsuits by inmates? Is that the number that
7 we're using that you are perhaps using and that
8 the Attorney General is using, all of the
9 notices and, in addition, those -- the factual
10 lawsuits themselves?
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Mr. President,
12 Senator, yes, that may be the methodology used
13 for counting those. The course is the
14 preparation to defend the cases depending on
15 where it is in the litigation process, but
16 certainly the Attorney General being put on
17 notice for claim does require some preparation.
18 What we're saying, though, is every one of those
19 claims under this bill certainly could be
20 brought. We're not trying to refuse anybody to
21 bring their claim. What we're saying is that
22 those claims should be brought at one-third the
23 cost of what it would cost anyone else to bring
24 a claim, and I should add to Senator Waldon's
25 question, comments regarding the President of
5033
1 the United States issue, I understand the
2 litigants paid their filing fees, Senator.
3 What we're saying is that the
4 inmates have the right to sue here. There only
5 -- there is a cost process though, a cost
6 factor when you access the court -- clerk time,
7 filing costs. What we're saying simply is
8 inmates should be paying part of that cost, not
9 all of it, not anywhere near what the average
10 citizen pays, just simply a fee.
11 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator, it
12 sounds like this probably is an inflation of the
13 actual problem based on the way the Attorney
14 General does the counting.
15 Now, the other issue that is
16 raised which I would like to ask you if you're
17 familiar with is the administrative process that
18 DOCS has for settling disputes within -- within
19 the system. Is it the case that this particular
20 process is not effective, does not work, and,
21 therefore, is not what the inmates view as a
22 legitimate response to any of their -- their
23 concerns and grievances?
24 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Senator, it's
25 an excellent question, in my view, but I believe
5034
1 that many inmates are circumventing that process
2 for a variety of reasons. I can only speculate
3 what those reasons are, but there is a lengthy
4 process. What most inmates are saying now
5 they're not even going to go through regardless
6 of merit. I guess there's probably a suspicion
7 that they are going through the same agency.
8 However, if every citizen had to bring his case,
9 the first thing the judge would say is has the
10 litigant, the claimant, exhausted their
11 administrative remedy, and what we're saying is
12 that the inmate needs to exhaust his
13 administrative remedies first before they bring
14 a case, that I am holding the lengthy process
15 and procedures that do exist, but inmates are
16 not totally availing themselves of them. I
17 think likely if some did, some would get relief;
18 if more did, maybe they would get relief.
19 Senator, I also wanted to add
20 just very quickly that those claims that are
21 brought and are successful, the inmate's filing
22 fee is returned, so that those, in a sense, are
23 saying that if there is a valid claim here that
24 makes sense, that the courts deem to be merit
25 orious, we're saying for that inmate's claim
5035
1 that's successful, their filing fee is
2 returned.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Montgomery.
5 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Mr.
6 President, just one last issue that I'd like to
7 raise with Senator Nozzolio.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Nozzolio, do you continue to yield? Senator
10 Nozzolio.
11 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Yes.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 continues to yield.
14 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator
15 Nozzolio, there needs to be an agreement that
16 there is a need for some streamlining and some
17 improvement in the process, the internal
18 process, and I'm just wondering if, since you
19 are in this legislation sending the inmates back
20 to that process and forcing them to -- to go
21 through that before they are able to file a
22 lawsuit, then it seems to me that we need to
23 address that issue, the problem related to the
24 administrative process internally first before
25 you require people to try and address their
5036
1 grievances through that.
2 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Well, your
3 comments make sense to me, and I certainly would
4 encourage the process to be streamlined, if
5 there are kinks in them to iron them out if we
6 required inmates to use it. Right now it would
7 be a waste of energy and time to perfect the
8 process -- and no process can be perfect if it's
9 human, but certainly I would fight hard to iron
10 out wrinkles that exist in the process if there
11 was a similar requirement that inmates use it,
12 that if this bill passed I would be very -- if
13 that comes passed and signed into law, I would
14 very much work with you and every other Senator
15 to ensure that process is perfected, but right
16 now we're not requiring inmates to use the
17 process. Most are circumventing it.
18 To focus on a process without the
19 requirement that the inmates use it, I think,
20 would be an exercise in wasted effort.
21 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Montgomery.
24 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Briefly on
25 the legislation, Mr. President.
5037
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Montgomery, on the bill.
3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I believe
4 that Senator Nozzolio is -- I appreciate what
5 he's trying to do to save the state money by
6 eliminating frivolous lawsuits by inmates, but I
7 have two questions regarding that premise. One
8 is that there is, in fact, this large number of
9 frivolous lawsuits. Given the fact that, as he
10 admits and as the -- the memo that I have
11 indicates that the way that they're counted is
12 not exactly forthcoming in terms of the -- the
13 factual number that are filed and become active
14 lawsuits.
15 The second concern that I have
16 about this is that we're sort of jumping the
17 gun, if you will, by forcing people to go
18 through a process which we agree -- Senator
19 Nozzolio agrees that is far from being adequate
20 as a means of resolving grievances that inmates
21 have internally. So it seems to me that it
22 makes more sense, and it's a fairer process if
23 we would address that internal mechanism first.
24 I believe that we -- if you do that, you would
25 see a reduction in the number of notices to the
5038
1 Attorney General, and thereby accomplishing what
2 you intend to do without penalizing or making it
3 impossible for those inmates who do have
4 legitimate grievances to be able to go into the
5 court process, and certainly if you don't do it,
6 if you do it this way I'm afraid that the only
7 results will be that you'll have the same
8 backlog at the level of the administrative
9 process and we will not have accomplished much
10 except a build-up of the kind of hostility and
11 frustration that puts the system -- puts
12 pressure on the system, i.e., creating an
13 atmosphere of hate or possible acting out and
14 endangering the correctional staff and what have
15 you.
16 So I hope that my colleagues will
17 look carefully at the memo that has been
18 provided for us by Prisoners' Legal Services. I
19 think it makes sense. They certainly are not
20 opposed to having some means of addressing this
21 issue that Senator Nozzolio has raised, but
22 certainly not in the way that he's raised it
23 because it's not going to be -- going to be
24 productive in what you intend to accomplish.
25 Thank you, Mr. President.
5039
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Any other
2 Senator wishing to speak on the bill? Hearing
3 none, the Secretary will read the last section.
4 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
5 act shall take effect on the first day of
6 January.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
8 roll.
9 (The Secretary called the roll. )
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record
11 the negatives and announce the results.
12 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
13 the negative on Calendar Number 1149 Senators
14 Connor, Gold, Leichter, Montgomery, Paterson,
15 Smith and Waldon. Ayes 50, nays 7.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
17 is passed.
18 Senator Smith, why do you rise?
19 SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President, I
20 ask unanimous consent to be recorded in the
21 negative on Calendar Number 1141.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
23 objection, hearing no objection, Senator Smith
24 will be recorded in the negative on Calendar
25 Number 1141.
5040
1 Secretary will continue to read
2 the controversial calendar.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 1153, by Senator Tully, Senate Print 5199, an
5 act to amend the Penal Law and the Criminal
6 Procedure Law, in relation to the collection of
7 fines.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
9 will read the last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
11 act shall take effect on the first day of
12 September.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll. )
16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
18 is passed.
19 Senator Holland.
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President,
21 can we return to Senator Bruno's bill, 1138.
22 Senator Volker is going to answer any questions.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explanation
24 on that bill.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: All
5041
1 right. Secretary will read Calendar Number
2 1138, by Senator Bruno.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 1138, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 3113, an
5 act in relation to authorizing Tier I status for
6 Mary Ann Martin in the New York State and the
7 local employees' retirement system.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Volker, Senator Dollinger has requested an
10 explanation of the bill.
11 SENATOR VOLKER: Well, obviously
12 I will not be able to do this nearly as capably
13 as the Majority Leader, who is busy trying to
14 straighten out New York City and rent stuff, so
15 he's asked me to take a look at this.
16 Now, now! At any rate, as I
17 understand this bill, it involves a person by
18 the name of Mrs. Mary Ann Martin, who is with
19 the Social Services Department in Rensselaer
20 County, and the story is that Mrs. Martin was
21 offered a maternity leave in 1971 for a period
22 from 1971 to 1972. She -- her last pay date was
23 actually '71.
24 In 1972, she officially resigned,
25 then five years later, rejoined the system, I
5042
1 believe in 1977. Now, when she applied to the
2 retirement system, the retirement system said to
3 her, We will calculate you as a Tier III rather
4 than as a Tier I, because we consider your
5 termination date to be 1971 rather than 1972.
6 As a result, you'd be six years instead of five
7 and, therefore, technically you are not
8 available for Tier I.
9 What this bill would do, and it
10 is a home rule request from the Rensselaer
11 County Legislature, with both a resolution and a
12 home rule message that requests that she be
13 restored to the Tier I status. The bill would
14 cost the county of Rensselaer $31,000, and the
15 state of New York $19,000, and that is the
16 proposal.
17 By the way, just so as to make it
18 clear, she did, under the 19... was it '92,
19 Trunzo Law, if I'm not mistaken, she made an
20 application (unintelligible) to that
21 administrative panel and the administrative
22 panel made a ruling that, although they
23 sympathized with her, so forth and so on, they
24 ruled her as not available for Tier I because
25 they said the policy of the retirement people is
5043
1 that rather than the time that she finished her
2 maternity leave, it would be the actual time
3 that she was paid her last paycheck, and she
4 said, If I had known that I could have worked
5 three days in 1972 and then be eligible, but
6 because of that ruling she was not eligible.
7 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Dollinger.
10 SENATOR GOLD: No.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Dollinger has the floor. Senator Dollinger.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
14 Mr. President.
15 I'm always reminded of that Mel
16 Allen line about beware of the danger of
17 pinch-hitters, so I appreciate Senator Volker
18 standing up and taking questions on this.
19 Senator, you've answered part of
20 the question. She did utilize the
21 administrative procedure that we created?
22 SENATOR VOLKER: Yes, yes.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And they
24 ruled that she didn't have service in 1992 -- or
25 in 1972, because even though she was on
5044
1 maternity leave she wasn't paid for that
2 maternity leave?
3 SENATOR VOLKER: That's right.
4 In other words, her last actual pay date was in
5 1971. She took the maternity leave and then
6 formally resigned during 1972, so that she came
7 back within five years of that resignation date
8 so she was O.K. there, but when the -- when the
9 ruling came from the retirement bureau, it said
10 even though you came back within five years of
11 the time that you took your maternity leave -
12 in other words, she terminated her maternity
13 leave -- they considered it six years because
14 they calculated back to the time that she
15 actually got her last paycheck in 1971 and her
16 argument was, Well, I took the maternity leave
17 and it was my understanding that that tolled my
18 time that I had as far as the five-year period
19 for the break in my service, and, therefore, I
20 should have been -- I should have been able to
21 continue to get my Tier I status.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: M-m h-m-m.
23 Mr. President, on the bill.
24 I -- I appreciate Senator
25 Volker's lucid explanation. I -- I rise today
5045
1 because I -- I'm concerned about, and I think as
2 many of the bills that are reflected in this
3 chamber are, about the issue of child birth as a
4 discontinuance in service and the effect that
5 that has on many women, literally thousands of
6 women who left the system in a period of time
7 when it was undergoing substantial changes
8 because of the financial plight of this state in
9 the mid-'70s who left to have children, lost
10 their Tier I status, lost their Tier II status,
11 ran into exactly the same problem that Mary Ann
12 Martin ran into, which was left for a period of
13 time for child birth reasons and maternity
14 reasons to raise our children. We got what was
15 either incomplete or inaccurate advice from the
16 local employer who said, Don't worry, the day of
17 your termination will be the last day of
18 maternity leave. When you resign, then you
19 resign and take your time off to raise your
20 children. This has created a terrible problem
21 for the administrative board that Senator Volker
22 mentioned that Senator Trunzo's legislation, I
23 believe in '93, gave us.
24 There are a number of bills that
25 are before the house that have been in this
5046
1 house. One is Senator Lack carries a bill which
2 would require retroactive Tier I membership and
3 better tier benefits to those who take maternity
4 leave. Senator Farley carries a bill which is
5 also introduced in the other house by Senator -
6 or the Assembly Judiciary Chairman Assembly
7 woman Weinstein, which would grant retroactive
8 Tier I status to teachers, just teachers, but to
9 all other employees in the state who left
10 employment for child birth and later returned
11 from maternity service.
12 I would like Senator Volker or
13 Senator Bruno, or whoever would read this
14 transcript, to take a message back to him to
15 bring those bills forward. I know they're
16 expensive, Senator, and I'm not going to deny
17 that this would put a very significant expense
18 on local communities, but if we believe that
19 women who left for child bearing reasons at a
20 time when the pension system went through
21 dramatic changes, as Senator Volker I'm sure
22 knows, in the period of 1970 through 1980 we
23 went through two or three tiers and we changed
24 the benefits and we did that for the financial
25 health of this state, but what we did is we
5047
1 punished women who took time off for child
2 bearing during that period of time, and unfairly
3 so, in my opinion.
4 I'm going to vote in favor of
5 this bill, but I would just urge and I know,
6 Senator Volker, you have great sympathy with us,
7 I'm sure Senator Bruno does, that we look at a
8 way to rectify this wrong and where we have
9 inadvertently punished women for child bearing
10 and this kind of relief, perhaps what we should
11 do is give greater guidance to the
12 administrative board that Senator Trunzo's
13 legislation set up and give them greater
14 guidance, give them greater leeway so we don't
15 have to deal with these on an individual basis,
16 give them the leeway to make the right decisions
17 in behalf of women like Mary Ann Martin, and I
18 would just add that I remain concerned about the
19 notion that the only people who actually get
20 here with a bill like this -- and I don't say
21 this in any way of derogation of Mrs. Martin or
22 Ms. Martin -- but those who have political
23 favors who are able to go to their local
24 communities, get the Rensselaer County
25 Legislature, the Board of Supervisors, to back
5048
1 this and then it shows up on our desk through
2 the Majority Leader or some other Senator, and
3 that kind of appearance of partiality I don't
4 think bodes well for the whole system.
5 So I would encourage us to look
6 at Senator Farley's bill, look at Senator Lack's
7 bill, and bring this issue to the floor because
8 I believe that, in the transition of pension
9 systems in the 1970s and early 1980s, we
10 inadvertently punished women for child bearing
11 and that shouldn't have happened.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
13 will read the last section.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Gold.
17 SENATOR GOLD: Thank you very
18 much.
19 Mr. President, I was very
20 delighted when this Legislature passed the
21 Trunzo bill, and I think that Senator Leichter
22 and I helped in our own small way with making it
23 into law.
24 Now, we are being told that as
25 part of the law there are people who don't like
5049
1 the decision they get, and I -- I think we're
2 getting into areas which have a certain danger.
3 We obviously can't redo litigation between Jones
4 and Smith, but the next thing we'll be hearing
5 is there's a bill to award Hugh Farley $250,000
6 because he lost a case against the state in the
7 Court of Claims, and he shouldn't have lost the
8 case in the Court of Claims.
9 I just don't think of the
10 Legislature that way. I really think it is a
11 mistake to do it. Senator Dollinger pointed out
12 that we're opening the door to political
13 favoritism. We're opening the door to a
14 disaster. If we believe that not only should the
15 Trunzo law be the law but that there should be
16 standards and we want them to be lenient or
17 however you want to phrase it legally, we can do
18 that, but I think the concept of taking a matter
19 that was litigated and we set up the process of
20 litigation, and undoing it because the litigant
21 didn't like the result but knew Senator Bruno or
22 Senator Tully or Senator Gold or Senator
23 Paterson -- it doesn't matter -- if it were
24 Senator Farley, I'd look at it differently, but
25 I just think it's a terrible, terrible
5050
1 precedent.
2 We open the door to huge
3 criticism for all of us, and I think it's a
4 mistake, and I'm going to vote no.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Volker.
7 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President,
8 let me just say that I -- it's not my bill, but
9 I -- as somebody who had a number of these bills
10 some years ago that related back to this
11 situation we just talked about, the Trunzo
12 situation, personally, I think we're always
13 going to have these kind of situations because
14 it's the problem with democracy versus a
15 dictatorship or a Socialist state or whatever.
16 In a democracy you're always going to have
17 certain bills, and you can always argue that
18 certain people are preferred and all that sort
19 of thing, and in doing each bill, are you
20 subject to criticism? Sure. That's what they
21 pay us a huge salary for, quote/unquote -- and
22 obviously I guess I say that tongue in cheek -
23 but I guess what I mean is that although I
24 understand what you're saying, Senator Gold,
25 what I think you have to realize is that there
5051
1 are certain situations that are called to our
2 attention, that I guess it's believed need some
3 attention and maybe it is on a preferred basis,
4 but let me say to you, in response, Senator, to
5 your question about several of those bills, and
6 I think there might be a Volker bill that deals
7 with teachers also -- in fact, I'm a co-sponsor
8 on the one, Senator Farley's bill which deals
9 with the whole system. The problem though, in
10 all honesty, with the bill is it has been costed
11 out at $400 million.
12 Now, as somebody has said here, I
13 guess eventually we're going to do a budget and
14 certainly this is an issue I think we could look
15 at, but it is $400 million. The other bill for
16 teachers is costed out at a minimum of about $9
17 million. That still is a substantial amount of
18 money. I happen to agree with you, I think this
19 is something that, in the change-over when we
20 did the Trunzo bill and we did certain things as
21 far as maternity leave that we probably, you
22 know, we didn't think of, and there's a lot of
23 things that have happened in this system as we
24 made changes. We made changes a few years ago
25 in retirement for school districts. The school
5052
1 districts asked for it, and what we found out is
2 we created some havoc in certain school
3 districts because we made one school district
4 that started out with a person who is part time
5 ending up paying the whole bill for somebody way
6 down the line who then made an appeal there. We
7 didn't intend to do that, but that's the way the
8 law was interpreted and, by the way, we've
9 changed that. We have stopped that.
10 A lot of these things that I
11 think some of the things that have happened is
12 administrative decisions are made, then maybe
13 it's the Legislature's business to step in and
14 make some changes, and I agree with you it's
15 argued, and my colleague, Senator LaValle says
16 we are in a sense a court of last resort and
17 it's true we should make some blanket
18 decisions. In the meantime, the problem is
19 because these are such huge amounts, to make a
20 blanket decision we have to also look at it in
21 terms of the budget.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Gold, why do you rise?
24 SENATOR GOLD: Yeah, I'd just
25 like to make remarks in response to Senator
5053
1 Volker.
2 First of all, I understand it is
3 not his bill and he's put himself into this
4 pool. I think that it was unfair to bring
5 Senator LaValle into the pool. He didn't ask to
6 get into the pool. Senator Volker, there are -
7 there are people who are in public service who
8 we call judges, and their job is to listen to
9 cases and decide as to the various rights of the
10 people in those cases.
11 There are also situations where
12 we have bills on this calendar where a
13 municipality did something wrong and we can help
14 them fix it and that's a public service. I
15 think it is completely different where somebody
16 has had their day in court and they ask us to
17 undo it, and I can tell you, Senator, that if
18 this bill was sponsored by a Republican in the
19 other house or a Democrat in this house, there
20 would be some counsel in the back room saying
21 exactly what I'm saying on the floor: Do we
22 want to undo the results of litigated matters?
23 And I just think it's a bad policy and I'm going
24 to sit down for my life.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
5054
1 will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
3 act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There is
5 a home rule message at the desk, by the way.
6 Call the roll.
7 (The Secretary called the roll. )
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record
9 the negatives and announce the results.
10 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
11 the negative on Calendar Number 1138 are
12 Senators Gold and Leichter. Ayes 56, nays 2.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The bill
14 is passed.
15 Senator Holland.
16 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President,
17 may we return to reports of standing
18 committees. I believe there is a report of the
19 Rules Committee at the desk.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
21 is. We will return to the standing -- order of
22 reports of standing committees. I'll ask the
23 Secretary to read the report of the Rules
24 Committee.
25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
5055
1 from the Committee on Rules, offers up the
2 following bills:
3 Senate Print 317, by Senator
4 Skelos, an act to amend the Insurance Law;
5 547, by Senator Kuhl and Wright,
6 an act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law
7 and the Economic Development Law;
8 1407, by Senator Spano, an act to
9 amend the Civil Service Law;
10 1797, by Senator Larkin, an act
11 to amend the Administrative Code of the city of
12 New York;
13 2012, by Senator Larkin, an act
14 to amend the Real Property Tax Law;
15 2585, by Senator Farley, an act
16 to amend the Labor Law;
17 2732-A, by Senator Cook, an act
18 to amend the Public Health Law;
19 2908, by Senator Stavisky, an act
20 to amend the Penal Law;
21 3111, by Senator Waldon, an act
22 to amend the Public Authorities Law;
23 3215, by Senator Leibell, an act
24 authorizing the town of Southeast, Putnam
25 County;
5056
1 3269-A, by Senator Spano, an act
2 to amend the Retirement and Social Security Law;
3 3286, by Senator LaValle, an act
4 to amend the Civil Rights Law;
5 3291-B, by Senator Present, an
6 act to amend the Education Law;
7 3349, by Senator Kuhl, an act to
8 amend the Real Property Tax Law;
9 3355, by Senator Marchi, an act
10 to amend the Not-for-Profit Corporation Law;
11 3385, by Senator Johnson, an act
12 to amend the Tax Law;
13 3533, by Senator Volker, an act
14 to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules;
15 3552, by Senator Leibell, an act
16 to legalize, validate, ratify;
17 3636, by Senator Rath, an act to
18 amend the General Municipal Law;
19 3730, by Senator Volker, an act
20 to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules;
21 3769, by Senator Volker, an act
22 to amend the Criminal Procedure Law;
23 3994, by Senator Stafford, an act
24 to repeal paragraph (b) of subdivision 2;
25 4159-A, by Senator Trunzo, an act
5057
1 to amend the Retirement and Social Security Law;
2 3530-A, by Senator Maltese, an
3 act to amend the Highway Law;
4 4678, by Senator Goodman, an act
5 to amend the General Municipal Law;
6 4690, by Senator Larkin, an act
7 to reopen the special retirement plan;
8 4853-A, by Senator Rath, an act
9 to amend the Labor Law and Executive Law;
10 5350, by Senator Present, an act
11 to amend the Education Law;
12 2175, by Senator Oppenheimer, an
13 act to amend the Town Law.
14 All bills directly to third
15 reading.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Holland.
18 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President,
19 I move we accept the report of the Rules
20 Committee.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Motion is
22 to accept the report of the Rules Committee.
23 All in favor signify by saying aye.
24 (Response of "Aye.")
25 Opposed nay.
5058
1 (There was no response.)
2 The report is accepted.
3 Senator Holland.
4 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President,
5 can we return to motions and resolutions. I
6 understand there are two privileged resolutions
7 at the desk, one by Senator Maltese and one by
8 Senator Seward. Could we have the titles read,
9 please.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
11 will read the title to the resolution offered by
12 Senator Seward.
13 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
14 Seward, Legislative Resolution, congratulating
15 the Huntersland Volunteer Fire Department upon
16 the occasion of its 50th Anniversary on June 13,
17 1997.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question
19 is on the resolution. All those in favor
20 signify by saying aye.
21 (Response of "Aye.")
22 Opposed nay.
23 (There was no response.)
24 The resolution is adopted.
25 Secretary will read the title of
5059
1 the privileged resolution by Senator Maltese.
2 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
3 Maltese, Legislative Resolution, commending the
4 Order Sons of Italy upon the occasion of its
5 92nd Anniversary celebration.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Question
7 is on the resolution. All those in favor signify
8 by saying aye.
9 (Response of "Aye.")
10 Opposed nay.
11 (There was no response.)
12 The resolution is adopted.
13 Senator Holland.
14 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President,
15 is there housekeeping?
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Yes.
17 Senator Farley. Return to motions and
18 resolutions. Senator Farley.
19 SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Mr.
20 President. On behalf of Senator Lack, Mr.
21 President, on page 25, I offer the following
22 amendments to Calendar Number 759, Senate Print
23 5049, and I ask that bill retain its place.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
25 Amendments to Calendar 759 are received and
5060
1 adopted, and the bill will retain its place on
2 the Third Reading Calendar.
3 Senator Farley.
4 SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
5 Senator Marcellino, I wish to amend a bill
6 that's been recalled from the Assembly and if
7 you'd call up Print Number 2898 which was
8 recalled from the Assembly, which is now at the
9 desk.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
11 will read.
12 THE SECRETARY: By Senator
13 Marcellino, Senate Print 2898, an act to amend
14 the General Municipal Law.
15 SENATOR FARLEY: Good. I now
16 move to reconsider the vote by which this
17 passed.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Secretary
19 will call the roll on reconsideration.
20 (The Secretary called the roll on
21 reconsideration. )
22 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
24 Farley.
25 SENATOR FARLEY: I now offer the
5061
1 following amendments.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
3 Amendments are received and adopted.
4 Senator Holland.
5 SENATOR HOLLAND: Mr. President,
6 there being no further business, I move we
7 adjourn until Wednesday, June 11, at 10:00 a.m.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
9 objection, Senate stands adjourned until
10 tomorrow, June 11th, Wednesday morning, at 10:00
11 a.m., specifically 10:00 a.m.
12 (Whereupon at 12:20 p.m., the
13 Senate adjourned.)
14
15
16
17
18