Regular Session - March 2, 1998
1057
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9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 March 2, 1998
11 3:03 p.m.
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14 REGULAR SESSION
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18 LT. GOVERNOR BETSY McCAUGHEY ROSS, President
19 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary
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1058
1 P R O C E E D I N G S.
2 THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
3 come to order. Would you please all rise and
4 join with me in the Pledge of Allegiance.
5 (The assemblage repeated the
6 Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
7 The invocation today will be
8 given by Pastor Iris Tucker from the Flatbush
9 Church of the Redeemer, in Brooklyn.
10 Welcome, Pastor Tucker.
11 PASTOR IRIS TUCKER: Almighty
12 wise God, we come before You this afternoon
13 invoking Your power and Spirit and Your
14 peace. We come asking You to fill these
15 Senators with wisdom, patience and the
16 understandings of the constituents that they
17 serve, so that they might look at issues of
18 social justice and keep them ever so mindful
19 in Your heart and in Your head. God, we come
20 asking You this in the name and the power and
21 the presence of Jesus Christ. Amen.
22 THE PRESIDENT: Amen.
23 Senator Bruno? The reading of
24 the Journal, please.
25 THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
1059
1 Friday, February 27th. The Senate met
2 pursuant to adjournment. The Journal of
3 Thursday, February 26th, was read and
4 approved. On motion, Senate adjourned.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Without
6 objection, the Journal stands approved as
7 read.
8 Presentation of petitions.
9 Messages from the Assembly.
10 Messages from the Governor.
11 Reports of standing
12 committees.
13 Reports of select committees.
14 Communications and reports from
15 state officers.
16 Motions and resolutions.
17 Senator Marcellino.
18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
19 Madam President. We have a few motions here.
20 On behalf of Senator Saland,
21 Madam President, on page number 16, I offer
22 the following amendments to Calendar Number
23 264, Senate Print Number 680-A, and ask that
24 said bill retain its place on the Third
25 Reading Calendar.
1060
1 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
2 received.
3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
4 Madam President.
5 On the -- on page number 14, on
6 behalf of Senator LaValle, I offer the
7 following amendments to Calendar Number 247,
8 Senate Print Number 2597, and ask that said
9 bill retain its place on the Third Reading
10 Calendar.
11 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
12 received.
13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
14 Madam President.
15 On behalf of Senator Leibell,
16 on page number 14, I offer the following
17 amendments to Calendar Number 242, Senate
18 Print Number 3930, and ask that said bill
19 retain its place on the Third Reading
20 Calendar.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
22 received.
23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
24 Madam President.
25 On behalf of Senator Meier, on
1061
1 page number 16, I offer the following
2 amendments to Calendar Number 265, Senate
3 Print Number 2588, and ask that said bill
4 retain its place on the Third Reading
5 Calendar.
6 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments
7 received.
8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
9 Madam President.
10 On behalf of Senator Larkin, on
11 page number 16, I offer the following
12 amendments to Calendar Number 271, Senate
13 Print Number 2012, and ask that the bill
14 retain its place on the Third Reading
15 Calendar.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Amendments are
17 received.
18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
19 President, I move the following bills be
20 discharged from their respective committees
21 and be recommitted with instructions to strike
22 the enacting clause, and that would be Senate
23 Numbers 1713, 1716, 1852, 3760-A, 4267, 4984,
24 4985, 4987, 4988, 4990, 5123, that's on behalf
25 of Senator Maziarz, and on behalf of Senator
1062
1 Kuhl, same request, 4334.
2 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered.
3 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
4 Madam President.
5 The Secretary will read one
6 substitution.
7 THE SECRETARY: Senator
8 DeFrancisco moves to discharge from the
9 Committee on Commerce, Economic Development
10 and Small Business Assembly Print 1216-B and
11 substitute it for the identical Senate bill
12 4349-A.
13 THE PRESIDENT: Substitution
14 ordered.
15 Senator Bruno.
16 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam
17 President, may we at this time stand at ease
18 in the chamber. I think we have some
19 important work to do, if you will all sort of
20 face that way. O.K.
21 THE PRESIDENT: Stand at ease.
22 (The Senate stood at ease from
23 3:09 to 3:15 p.m.)
24 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bruno.
25 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam
1063
1 President, while we are being organized, I
2 would recommend that we go to the
3 non-controversial calendar.
4 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
5 will read.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 81, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 2469-A,
8 an act to amend the Social Services Law.
9 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
10 section, please.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it
12 aside.
13 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 101, by Senator Volker, Senate Print Number
16 5007, an act to amend the Criminal Procedure
17 Law.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it
19 aside, please.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 107, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print Number
23 3646, an act to amend the Public Authorities
24 Law.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it
1064
1 aside, please.
2 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 127, by Senator Present, Senate Print 532, an
5 act to amend the General Municipal Law.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay that
7 aside.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 151, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 355-A,
11 an act to amend the General City Law.
12 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside
13 for the day.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside.
15 SENATOR GOLD: Lay it aside for
16 the day?
17 THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
18 SENATOR GOLD: That's for the
19 day.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 161, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1499, an
23 act to amend the Public Health Law.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay that
25 aside.
1065
1 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside,
2 please.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 187, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print Number
5 4834-D, an act to amend the -
6 SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside
7 for the day.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside
9 for the day, please.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 209, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 150, an
12 act to amend the Environmental Conservation
13 Law.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it
15 aside, please.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside,
17 please.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 210, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 389, an
20 act to amend the Environmental Conservation
21 Law.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it
23 aside.
24 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside,
25 please.
1066
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 219, by Senator Wright, Senate Print Number
3 3890, an act to amend the County Law.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it
5 aside.
6 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside,
7 please.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 220, by Senator Cook, Senate Print Number
10 4647, an act to amend the Town Law.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay that
12 one aside too, please.
13 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside,
14 please.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 231, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print Number
17 1977, an act to amend the Penal Law.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay that
19 aside.
20 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside,
21 please.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 274, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 2729.
24 SENATOR COOK: Lay it aside for
25 the day.
1067
1 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside
2 for the day, please.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 276, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 5390, an
5 act to amend the General Municipal Law.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it
7 aside.
8 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 278, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 6250, an
11 act in regard to filing applications.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Lay it
13 aside.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Lay it aside,
15 please.
16 Senator Bruno, that completes
17 the non-controversial reading of the
18 calendar.
19 Senator Bruno, we have a motion
20 at the desk.
21 SENATOR BRUNO: Take it up,
22 please.
23 THE PRESIDENT: We'll return to
24 motions and resolutions. The Secretary will
25 read. Oh, Senator Marcellino.
1068
1 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
2 Madam President.
3 I appreciate the motion. On
4 page -- on behalf of Senator Libous, on page
5 number 21, I offer the following amendments to
6 Calendar Number 1, Senate Print Number 1122,
7 and ask that said bill retain its place on the
8 Third Reading Calendar.
9 THE PRESIDENT: So ordered.
10 Senator Bruno.
11 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam
12 President, it appears that we are progressing
13 slowly. I would like to at this time take up
14 Calendar Number 278 until we are ready and
15 then we will take a short recess, but if we
16 can start the deliberation and the debate on
17 Calendar 278.
18 THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
19 will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 278, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 6250, an
22 act to extend the period for filing
23 applications for real property disability
24 exemption.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
1069
1 Explanation.
2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
3 Dollinger has requested an explanation.
4 Senator Rath.
5 SENATOR RATH: Thank you, Madam
6 Chairman.
7 Senator Dollinger, my
8 colleagues, this is a remedy to a problem that
9 has -
10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mike's not
11 on. Got the wrong desk.
12 SENATOR RATH: In July 1997
13 legislation was enacted authorizing tax units
14 to provide, by local law, disability real
15 property tax exemption. The law took effect in
16 January 1998. Applications for disability
17 exemption could not be accepted until after -
18 accepted, pardon me, until the taxing units
19 opted in and could not be accepted beyond the
20 taxing units' taxable status date.
21 A problem surfaced in that at
22 least one taxing unit did not opt in until
23 after the taxable status date, thus precluding
24 multiple disabled persons from benefiting from
25 the 1998-99 exemption. The purpose of this
1070
1 bill is to remedy that problem whereby,
2 because of early taxable status dates there
3 was insufficient time in which to receive
4 applications for the 1998-99 disability
5 exemption.
6 Accordingly, this legislation
7 authorizing -- authorizes taxing units who had
8 opted in and who had taxable status dates
9 prior to March 1st, 1998 to opt to extend the
10 date for filing applications for the exemption
11 to March 15, 1998. Eligibility, however,
12 would be based on the taxable status date.
13 Corresponding with this piece
14 of legislation that many of us have been
15 talking about in relation to the STAR program
16 the above was brought to our attention and
17 when that particular piece surfaced, it was
18 appropriate that the other part come along
19 with it, and this provides this corresponding
20 exemption made to extend the timetable for the
21 appeals process.
22 The assessing unit would
23 establish a date by which the assessing of tax
24 on the application, a date on which the board
25 of assessment would review and convene for
1071
1 hearing complaints on denial of these
2 applications and a date by which the board of
3 assessment review is required to act. If the
4 assessment roll is completed and filed prior
5 to the date of the assessment review, the
6 taxing units may enter such exemption on the
7 final 1998 assessment roll until May 15,
8 1998.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Madam
10 President, may I ask a question?
11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
12 Dollinger.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: A question
14 of the sponsor.
15 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
16 SENATOR RATH: Surely.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does this
18 bill deal with the particular problem created
19 in the city of Rochester and Monroe County
20 with respect to the tax -- the tax status date
21 that occurred for the disability exemption in
22 the city of Rochester?
23 SENATOR RATH: Yes, Senator, it
24 does and it was brought to our attention that
25 there was a circumstance wherein the taxing
1072
1 jurisdiction had not opted in and because of
2 that, we sent them a message. This bill will
3 provide for that. I believe the deadline date
4 is the 15th of March for that, so it's timely
5 that we do this very quickly.
6 The other -- the other piece
7 was part of the examination of the kinds of
8 things we were into, not only we are but again
9 with the assessment unit; so yes, Rochester is
10 taken care of.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
12 you, Madam President, if the sponsor would
13 continue to yield.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath,
15 would you continue to yield?
16 SENATOR RATH: Sure.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Who brought
18 it to your attention, Senator Rath?
19 SENATOR RATH: There were
20 several people brought it to our attention,
21 Senator Dollinger being one of them, and to
22 move back a little bit from this juncture
23 where we are today, when it was brought to our
24 attention, it was quickly recognized that it
25 not only covered Rochester but it also covered
1073
1 the rest of the state, and the bill and the
2 situation that was brought to our attention
3 covered the Monroe County area that you
4 represent, and we thought it was important
5 that the residents have the exemption.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again,
7 through you, Madam President, do you know
8 whether the city of Rochester or Monroe County
9 support the portion of this bill that deals
10 specifically with Rochester and Monroe County?
11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Any
13 evidence from them that they support this
14 bill?
15 SENATOR RATH: I do. There was
16 a resolution by the County Legislature, I
17 believe it was. I had called for the bill -
18 for the folder to come over inasmuch as we are
19 a little bit out of order in the timing of
20 this, but I believe it was the Monroe County
21 Legislature that I looked at.
22 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
23 Dollinger.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
25 you, Madam President.
1074
1 SENATOR RATH: Sure.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't it
3 the case that the county of Monroe did approve
4 a resolution for another bill that's sitting
5 in the Local Government Committee that
6 specifically addresses the situation for
7 Monroe County?
8 SENATOR RATH: I'm sorry, I
9 didn't understand your question.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
11 through you, Madam President, there was a
12 memorandum of approval by the Monroe County
13 Legislature signed by, I believe, 26 of the 29
14 members, but I think that related to another
15 bill and not to this specific bill; is that
16 not correct?
17 SENATOR RATH: That's not my
18 understanding. My understanding was that that
19 resolution from the Monroe County Legislature
20 was in regards to this bill.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My
22 understanding is, again through you, Madam
23 President, that that relates to 6030 and not
24 to this bill, which is 6250. I just ask you
25 if you could produce that document for me. I
1075
1 feel perhaps it would enable me to better vote
2 on this, but my understanding is that there's
3 no evidence from Monroe County in support of
4 this bill, and I'd ask through you, Madam
5 President, is there any indication from the
6 city of Rochester that they support this bill,
7 6250?
8 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
9 SENATOR RATH: Madam President,
10 this bill is a different bill number because
11 what we're talking about was a stand alone
12 bill only dealing with the exemption for the
13 disabled. This is a bill that has several
14 facets to it. I think that's the difference
15 in the number.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
17 through you, Madam President.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
19 Dollinger.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I
21 understand that this has different aspects to
22 it. It has a statewide ramification in
23 addition to the local ramification for the
24 county of Monroe and the city of Rochester.
25 My question is, through you, Madam President,
1076
1 do you have any indication from the city of
2 Rochester that this is the bill that they want
3 passed in order to solve the problem of
4 disability tax exemptions on the tax eligible
5 status date for people in the city of
6 Rochester?
7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
8 SENATOR RATH: The piece that
9 came through from the County Legislature was
10 clear about the intent. I have no concern
11 that this bill is in any way, shape or form
12 not addressing the intent of the Monroe County
13 Legislature.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
15 through you, Madam President.
16 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
17 Dollinger.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you have
19 any indication that the city of Rochester,
20 which is where the people who have disability,
21 who applied for the tax exemption, where they
22 are and how they would be affected? Do you
23 have any indication from the city of Rochester
24 -- of which I represent 75 percent, Senator
25 Alesi represents the other 25 percent -- that
1077
1 they support this bill as a solution to their
2 problem?
3 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
4 SENATOR RATH: The bill was
5 presented approximately a week ago and I know
6 how diligently the Rochester representative
7 works with their constituency. If they had a
8 problem with this bill, I'm sure they would
9 have gotten hold of me immediately if they
10 have a problem, but if you have a problem, I
11 suggest you vote no.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well,
13 again, through you, Madam President.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
15 Dollinger.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: We have no
17 indication as you sit here today that the city
18 of Rochester supports this bill; is that
19 correct?
20 SENATOR RATH: The bill has
21 provisions that they did support in another
22 bill. It basically -- they are basically the
23 same provisions and, if you are interested in
24 hearing the assessing units which had the
25 taxing status date before March 1st, they're
1078
1 Syracuse, Buffalo, New York City, Rochester,
2 Yonkers, Auburn, Watertown, Amsterdam, Oswego,
3 Hornell, Bronxville, Lackawanna, Niagara
4 Falls, White Plains and Nassau County.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
6 through you, Madam President.
7 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
8 Dollinger.
9 A little order in the chamber,
10 please.
11 Senator Dollinger.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
13 through you, Madam President, my under
14 standing that the reference in the sponsor's
15 memo specifically occurred in the city of
16 Rochester; is that correct?
17 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
18 SENATOR RATH: The -- pardon me
19 again. Say that again, Senator.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The
21 sponsor's memo for the passage of this bill
22 which was drafted, I assume by you since
23 you're the author of this bill, Senator,
24 specifically refers to the problem in Monroe
25 County and the city of Rochester; isn't that
1079
1 correct?
2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
3 SENATOR RATH: Rochester is the
4 only jurisdiction that has raised the issue at
5 this point, and we wanted to make it very
6 clear to the Rochester representatives that we
7 were certainly looking out for their best
8 interests.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: O.K.
10 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
11 Dollinger.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
13 through you, Madam President, if you're
14 looking out for the city of Rochester's best
15 interests, why doesn't the city of Rochester
16 have a memorandum in support of this bill in
17 their file or some evidence from the city of
18 Rochester that this solves the problem that
19 they saw?
20 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
21 SENATOR RATH: Senator, you
22 represent the city of Rochester, I assume,
23 which is what your great interest is, you're
24 not just a Monroe County legislator. I would
25 assume, as I said, if you have a problem with
1080
1 this bill we would need to see a memorandum on
2 that.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator -
4 through you, Madam President.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
6 Dollinger.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This isn't
8 the question I asked, Senator. The question I
9 asked is, do you have any written evidence
10 that this is the bill that the city says
11 solves the problem, this bill 6250, not 6030
12 A, drafted by some other Senator in this
13 house, but does your bill 6250 -- is that what
14 they want to solve their problem?
15 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
16 SENATOR RATH: We have -- I
17 have been advised by counsel that we have
18 talked with the representatives of the city of
19 Rochester, and this bill is fine with them as
20 we move forward. I understand it's been
21 introduced in the Assembly, and there is no
22 problem with this bill.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
24 through you, Madam President.
25 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
1081
1 Dollinger.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: If I could,
3 I'm just trying to find out, Senator, this is
4 an issue that I actually have been involved
5 in. I know Senator Alesi there and I'm trying
6 to simply find out, I know there was a prior
7 bill drafted by someone in this house, sent to
8 the Monroe County Legislature, was endorsed by
9 the Monroe County Legislature. I know that
10 there was this -- another bill sent to the
11 City Council which we got a memorandum
12 approved by a letter signed by the mayor, the
13 president of the City Council saying that that
14 bill solved the problem.
15 My question is, if that other
16 bill solved the problem, I'd like to know that
17 this bill also solves the problem. Do you
18 have any written evidence from either one of
19 those governmental entities that I represent,
20 that this bill solves the problem?
21 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
22 SENATOR RATH: If you will wait
23 just one minute. I may have it in my folder
24 which is under the desk because I assumed we
25 were going to do photographs first.
1082
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: My
2 pleasure.
3 SENATOR RATH: Through you,
4 Madam President.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
6 SENATOR RATH: The letterhead
7 that I thought I had carried into the chamber
8 with me, unfortunately, is not here. It's my
9 recollection that it was the Monroe County
10 Legislature, and I'm advised by counsel that
11 there is no negative -- there has been no
12 negative memorandums or comments that have
13 come from the city of Rochester and
14 representative Gantt introduced this same
15 legislation, so I'm very comfortable with it.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
17 through you.
18 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
19 Dollinger.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just so I
21 understand it there's no written approval of
22 either the city of Rochester or the county of
23 Monroe for this bill?
24 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
25 SENATOR RATH: It is not in my
1083
1 possession in the chamber right now, but I
2 would assume you received the same thing I
3 received.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I don't
5 know -- I don't know what you've received,
6 Senator. I'm trying to figure out. I received
7 some things. You obviously must have received
8 something different. I'm trying to find out
9 what the difference is in what I received in
10 support of another bill and what you received
11 in support of this bill.
12 Madam President, I'd simply ask
13 that the bill be laid aside until perhaps
14 later in the session today. Maybe we can work
15 out what it is that the city of Rochester has
16 given you, the county of Monroe has given you,
17 that they have not given me in support of bill
18 6250.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm simply
21 asking that it be laid aside temporarily until
22 that information is provided, since I
23 represent Monroe County and most of the city
24 of Rochester. I'd like to see that
25 information.
1084
1 SENATOR RATH: Through you,
2 Madam President.
3 The bill that you presented,
4 Senator Dollinger, was a bill that was at
5 local option. This is -- this bill is making
6 it mandatory, so I don't -- as I grasp that by
7 this bill we were making it a better bill and
8 also the February 5th date was erroneous
9 because it had gone past as we were attempting
10 to include a number of things in the bill that
11 were very, very necessary, not only for your
12 jurisdiction and Monroe County's concerns but
13 for all across the state.
14 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
15 Dollinger.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Madam
17 President, I would simply ask that the bill be
18 laid aside for -
19 THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead,
20 sorry.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Simply ask
22 the sponsor to lay the bill aside temporarily
23 and allow me to get information that
24 apparently the sponsor has that I don't have
25 with respect to the approval of this bill
1085
1 either by the city of Rochester or the county
2 of Monroe. Is that unreasonable, Madam
3 President?
4 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
5 SENATOR RATH: Senator
6 Dollinger, my clear recollection -- and I
7 looked at it within the last few hours; I'm
8 sorry, I don't have it with me -- this bill is
9 fine with the city of Rochester.
10 Thank you.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Will the
12 sponsor just continue to yield?
13 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath,
14 will you continue to yield?
15 SENATOR RATH: One more
16 question.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The taxable
18 status date in your bill, the March 15th date
19 that apparently is selected in this bill, do
20 you have any specific approval from the county
21 of Monroe or the city of Rochester with
22 respect to the practical nature of that
23 specific date in the bill, whether that date
24 is acceptable or given the late date that
25 we're acting on, that April 1st would be a
1086
1 better date?
2 THE PRESIDENT: Senator Rath.
3 SENATOR RATH: The March 15th
4 date was discussed with the city of Rochester
5 officials earlier today by Majority Counsel
6 and advised that March 15th was fine.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But you
8 have nothing in writing to that effect.
9 SENATOR RATH: I have nothing
10 in writing.
11 THE PRESIDENT: Senator
12 Dollinger.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: On the
14 bill, Madam President.
15 THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe
17 it's somewhat unfortunate that we're in this
18 position today talking about a bill that
19 should do something for Monroe County, may do
20 something for Monroe County, may do something
21 for the people of the city of Rochester, 75
22 percent of whom I represent those people in
23 the city of Rochester who would benefit from
24 this bill, and yet there was another bill
25 introduced at an earlier time, much earlier
1087
1 time, more than a month ago which the issue
2 was raised, put on the table.
3 I came to Senator Rath, other
4 people in this chamber, said, Let's pass this
5 bill, let's do it. Let's do it so we have a
6 March 1st deadline. Let's get it done in
7 February, so that we give the disabled people
8 in the city of Rochester lots of time. There
9 are about 880 of them who would benefit. There
10 were loopholes in the law that we had to
11 correct, something we had to fill.
12 I worked with it, sent a copy
13 to Senator Alesi, who represents the city with
14 me, sent a copy to Senator Rath. I worked hard
15 to put the bill together. I sent the bill to
16 the County Legislature. I sent it to the city
17 of Rochester. The County Legislature said
18 it's a great idea, we want to see the city
19 people benefit from the disability exemption.
20 We approve your bill, Senator Dollinger. 26,
21 I believe, of the 29 members signed the bill,
22 a letter in support of that bill. That's the
23 letter that Senator Rath is referring to.
24 Sure enough, then the city of
25 Rochester weighs it; my bill is circulated to
1088
1 the city of Rochester. The mayor and the
2 president of the City Council sign a letter
3 that says, the Dollinger bill, we can go with
4 that; that's fine. I tried to get the members
5 of this house to put that bill through, to
6 prevent -- to protect the citizens of my
7 district.
8 Then what happens? All of a
9 sudden this new bill appears. This new bill
10 appears. I'm willing -- my bill doesn't have
11 to pass but you would think that someone who
12 represents 75 percent of the people who are
13 affected, who did all the work, laid all the
14 foundation, would, as a matter of courtesy -
15 simple, simple courtesy -- be included on the
16 bill, that simple courtesy would say include
17 someone on the bill.
18 No, doesn't exist here in the
19 state Senate. Now we're going to pass a bill,
20 we don't have any evidence it's supported by
21 the county, don't have any evidence that this
22 bill is supported by the city. And what
23 rules, in my judgment? Nothing but cheap
24 partisan politics. I think everybody ought to
25 be ashamed.
1089
1 THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
2 section, please.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 4.
4 This act shall take effect immediately.
5 THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the
7 roll. )
8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
9 THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
10 passed.
11 Senator Bruno.
12 SENATOR BRUNO: Madam
13 President, can we at this time once again
14 stand at ease. Thank you.
15 I would recommend that the
16 members get in their regular seats, and you
17 might want to then follow the direction of the
18 photographer on the platform.
19 THE PRESIDENT: Would the
20 members please clear their desks for the
21 purpose of making a nice picture.
22 (The Senate stood at ease at
23 3:37 p.m.)
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
25 Senate will come to order. Ask the members to
1090
1 take their seats, please, the staff to take
2 their places.
3 Senator Skelos.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
5 before we start and continue with the
6 controversial calendar, there will be an
7 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in
8 the Majority Conference Room.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
10 will be an immediate meeting of the Rules
11 Committee, an immediate meeting of the Rules
12 Committee in Room 332, the Majority Conference
13 Room.
14 Senator Holland.
15 SENATOR HOLLAND: We will
16 return to the controversial calendar, regular
17 order, starting with Calendar Number 81,
18 please, Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Secretary will read the controversial
21 calendar.
22 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
23 81, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 2469-A,
24 an act to amend the Social Services Law.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
1091
1 Explanation, please.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Maltese, an explanation of Calendar Number 81
4 has been requested by Senator Dollinger.
5 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
6 President, this is an act to amend the Social
7 Services Law in relation to access to criminal
8 history records by the Department of Health.
9 This bill is introduced in the
10 Assembly by Assemblyman Joseph Crowley. The
11 bill permits the Department of Health to have
12 access to the criminal history records of any
13 persons seeking approval to become an
14 operator, administrator or receiver of an
15 adult care facility, any person seeking
16 recertification as an operator, administrator
17 or receiver. This occurs every four years.
18 Any person at any time the Department deems it
19 necessary to determine their criminal
20 histories. All requests must be accompanied
21 by the fingerprints of the subject of the
22 request.
23 In addition, in order to make
24 it all-inclusive as far as operators,
25 administrators or receivers of adult care
1092
1 facilities, in the event that they have a plea
2 of guilty or they are found guilty by a jury
3 or a court, the court must notify the
4 Department of Health.
5 The bill in 1997 passed the
6 Senate 62 to zero. In 1996 it passed the
7 Senate 57 to zero. In prior years it also
8 passed unanimously in this house.
9 The justification is that the
10 Department of Health has the comprehensive
11 responsibility for the development and
12 administration of program, standard methods of
13 operation and all other matters of state
14 policy with respect to residential care
15 programs for adults.
16 The press has documented and
17 the courts have documented many instances of
18 abuse in adult care facilities. When we
19 entrust our seniors and the persons who have
20 earned a right to be unmolested certainly or
21 not disturbed in their declining years if they
22 must reside in an adult care facility, there
23 is an obligation on the part of the
24 Legislature, it would seem to me, to protect
25 those persons who, because of age or
1093
1 infirmity, are unable to protect themselves.
2 This, by enabling the Department of Health to
3 inquire into the criminal histories, would
4 seem to serve that purpose.
5 The obligation on the
6 Department of Health in the granting or the
7 retaining of these operators or administrators
8 of these health care facilities is conditional
9 upon the moral -- moral health, the moral
10 character of these operators. Certainly they
11 should not be in a position that the -- they
12 would be guilty of a crime and in order to
13 provide some latitude, it is the Department of
14 Health that makes the judgment depending on
15 what the crime and the circumstances of the
16 crime that would be evidenced by the criminal
17 history to make a determination as to whether
18 the certificate of operation would be revoked
19 or suspended.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
21 you, Mr. President, if the sponsor would yield
22 to a couple of questions.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
24 Maltese, do you yield to a question from
25 Senator Dollinger?
1094
1 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator yields.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: First of
5 all, Senator, in Section 3 of the bill, it
6 refers to making fingerprints of any person
7 who is subject to the request available.
8 Could you tell me why you need the
9 fingerprints of someone if you're going to get
10 their criminal history anyway?
11 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
12 President, because so many persons are -- have
13 similar names, we -- it was felt that the best
14 way to secure the criminal history, an
15 accurate and complete criminal history, in
16 whatever jurisdiction was to have the
17 fingerprints that could be put through the
18 computer systems to pick up any crime that
19 there had previously been a conviction or plea
20 of guilty.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
22 through you, Mr. President. Is there
23 currently a provision in state law that
24 requires the fingerprinting of someone who
25 applies for this license? In other words,
1095
1 Senator, I'm trying to find out, you ask for
2 them from DCJS. Where do you get the
3 comparisons so you can compare the
4 fingerprints together, find out whether the
5 person is who they claim to be? What's the -
6 where do you get the comparison material?
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Well, Mr.
8 President, a comparison with what?
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Well, again
10 through you, Mr. President. As I understand
11 this bills DCJS will, upon the Health
12 Department's inquiry, furnish a set of
13 fingerprints from someone who's been convicted
14 of a bill. If you want to know whether a
15 person who is applying for the license is the
16 same person who's arrested, you have to get
17 the fingerprints from the person who's
18 applying for the license, don't you?
19 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
20 President, I see the -- I see the purpose of
21 the question but the fingerprints are
22 accompanying the request -- the fingerprints
23 are accompanying the request for the criminal
24 history records to the Department of Criminal
25 Justice. So they have these records. All
1096
1 we're looking for is the criminal history.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
3 through you, Mr. President. Where is -
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Maltese -- excuse me, Senator Dollinger -- do
6 you continue to yield?
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes, I do.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Senator continues to yield, Senator Dollinger.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
11 Mr. President.
12 Where is the authorization in
13 current statute that someone who applies for
14 an operator's license has to provide their
15 fingerprints?
16 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
17 President, I'm not aware there is one, but I
18 plan to introduce legislation to that effect
19 if there is not such a requirement.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
21 through you, Mr. President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Dollinger. Senator Maltese, do you continue
24 to yield?
25 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
1097
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Senator continues to yield.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So we
4 really don't know whether this bill will be
5 effective then until you introduce some other
6 bill at a future time, is that correct?
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
8 President, since the Department of Health has
9 the jurisdiction and the authority to grant
10 either the application or to continue the
11 application, any -- and the judgment is
12 theirs, it would seem certainly incumbent upon
13 them that if a request was made for
14 fingerprints and the subject refused to
15 comply, that in itself would be sufficient
16 grounds to not grant the certificate.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
18 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Maltese
19 continues to yield.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Maltese, do you continue to yield?
22 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
24 Senator continues to yield.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: In Section
1098
1 2 of the bill, Senator, it refers to the fact
2 when an operator, administrator or receiver in
3 an adult care facility is convicted of a crime
4 while operating or administrating a facility,
5 is it your intention that those crimes only
6 relate to the operation of the facility, or
7 would this include any crime, including
8 driving while intoxicated?
9 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
10 President, it is my intention that it be any
11 crime, any misdemeanor or felony, any crime as
12 defined by the Penal Law and then it would be
13 up to the Department of Health to make the
14 determination as to whether or not that crime
15 would be sufficient grounds to either revoke
16 an application or to discontinue the privilege
17 of administering or operating the health care
18 facility.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
20 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Maltese
21 would continue to yield.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Maltese, do you continue to yield? The
24 Senator continues to yield.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where in
1099
1 this bill do you give the Health Department
2 the discretion to deny them -- deny someone a
3 license on the basis of a crime such as
4 driving while intoxicated, that that finds
5 them incapable of serving as an administrator
6 or an operator of a nursing home?
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
8 President, it is not within the four corners
9 of this bill, but it is defined by statute as
10 the -- as the privilege of the Health
11 Department to grant or continue that
12 application, and I believe it's covered under
13 461 of the Social Services Law and it
14 specifically refers to, for instance, 461 (b)
15 -- I bring your attention to 7 (a) -- "The
16 Department shall suspend, limit, modify or
17 revoke an operating certificate of a shelter
18 for adults, residence for adults or such home
19 upon determining that such action would be in
20 the public interest." It would seem to me
21 that in those cases that action would be
22 certainly in the public interest and they
23 speak -- they give the same rights to the
24 receiver in bankruptcy and they refer to -
25 461 (a) refers to the responsibility for
1100
1 inspection and supervision, gives that right
2 to the Department of Health and in another
3 section that I can't lay my hands on right
4 now, but they indicate that the operator of a
5 health care -- operator or administrator of a
6 health care facility shall be of good moral
7 character.
8 So it seems to give untrammeled
9 authority to the Department of Health, as
10 should be the case, to make a judgment as to
11 whether the person or -- the person is a fit
12 person to operate or administer such a
13 facility.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
15 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Maltese
16 will yield.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Maltese, do you continue to yield?
19 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Senator continues to yield.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: How does
23 your bill, Senator Maltese, deal with the
24 problem of a corporate owner of one of these
25 homes?
1101
1 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
2 President, according to the statutes, you
3 cannot -- you must have a person to be -- oh,
4 a person rather than a corporation.
5 Mr. President, I also found the
6 section I was referring to before, 461 (b),
7 Subsection 2 (a), "No adult care facility
8 shall be operated unless and until the
9 operator obtains the written approval of the
10 Department. Such approval may be granted only
11 to an operator who satisfactorily demonstrates
12 that the operator is of good moral character,
13 that the operator is financially responsible
14 and that there is a public need for the
15 facility.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
17 through you, Mr. President. With respect to
18 that section of the statute that will be
19 impacted by this bill, is it your intention to
20 include the fact that if you're convicted of a
21 crime, you are presumptively disqualified from
22 doing that?
23 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
24 President, no.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: With
1102
1 respect to -- again through you, Mr.
2 President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Maltese, do you continue to yield?
5 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Senator continues to yield.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: With
9 respect to the ownership of a nursing home,
10 what about the situations in which a general
11 partnership owns a nursing home? Who would be
12 responsible for having the certification or
13 the fingerprints taken?
14 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
15 President, it would seem that under the Social
16 Services Law -- unless I'm mistaken -- that
17 they indicate that such responsibility shall
18 only reside in a natural person; in other
19 words, the ultimate responsibility that the
20 health care facility itself may be a
21 corporation or a partnership, but if they are
22 actually a -- an operator or an administrator
23 of a nursing home, that would enter into the
24 securing or retaining of the certificate.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
1103
1 Dollinger.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
3 through you, Mr. President, just one other
4 question.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Maltese, do you yield to one more question?
7 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Senator yields.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: This only
11 applies to operators and administrators of
12 nursing homes. What about the other personnel
13 that are involved in nursing home
14 administration, other people that are involved
15 in direct care supervision, the director of
16 nursing, the director of patient services, all
17 of whom would have the same potential to
18 create the kind of abusive damage to one of
19 their residents that you're addressing this
20 to? Doesn't this really address simply the
21 figure head and not really get at the people
22 who are supposed to be or are applying the
23 direct care who have probably a greater
24 opportunity for the kind of abusive conduct
25 that this bill is designed to prevent?
1104
1 SENATOR MALTESE: Mr.
2 President, it would seem that many of us have
3 legislation that would remedy the type of
4 abuse that Senator Dollinger is speaking
5 about, and I certainly would support or
6 endorse such legislation, but this legislation
7 would seek to remedy the type of abuse that is
8 prevalent in some nursing -- some health care
9 facilities that is -- starts at the top, the
10 type of abuse that involves a lack of
11 supervision, lack of care, lack of attention
12 when a patient or a resident requests some
13 type of assistance or needs some type of
14 special treatment, in the interests of a false
15 economy or outright greed, the operator or
16 administrator shortcuts. This is the type of
17 person that we do not wish to operate or
18 administer a health care facility and this is
19 the type of person we're seeking to stop from
20 being granted or retaining a certificate.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: A final
22 question through you, Mr. President. This
23 will be my last one.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Maltese, do you yield?
1105
1 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator yields.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, in
5 Section 2 of your bill, you require that local
6 criminal courts, if they know that an
7 administrator, operator, or receiver in an
8 adult care facility is convicted of a crime,
9 within ten days thereafter they have to notify
10 the Department of Health in writing of such a
11 conviction. Isn't that correct?
12 SENATOR MALTESE: Yes.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What if the
14 conviction is overturned on appeal?
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Is that
16 a second question, Senator Dollinger.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's
18 correct.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you
20 asking Senator Maltese to yield to a question
21 beyond your last question?
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
23 Mr. President. Yes.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Maltese, do you yield?
1106
1 SENATOR MALTESE: I do, Mr.
2 President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Senator yields.
5 SENATOR MALTESE: I would
6 imagine that an operator or administrator of a
7 health care facility who's had a conviction
8 overturned would be very speedy about
9 notifying the Department of Health if such a
10 situation has taken place. It would also seem
11 incumbent upon his attorney or someone acting
12 in his interest to so notify the -- to so
13 notify the Department of Health.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
15 Mr. President. I thank Senator Maltese for
16 the explanation of the bill.
17 I simply raise those issues
18 because I think that this is a bill well
19 intentioned, that if you look at it very
20 carefully needs a provision that gives the
21 ability of a convicted operator to go back and
22 strike out a conviction that's overturned on
23 appeal, as I once represented someone who was
24 involved in a situation exactly like that, had
25 their conviction overturned on appeal without
1107
1 the ability to file a correction with the
2 Department of Criminal Justice Services, get
3 your fingerprints back, you may have someone
4 who's unfortunately found in essence not
5 guilty or should not have been tried in the
6 first place, they end up with a permanent
7 black mark against them, may end up with a
8 proceeding before the Department of Health,
9 may end up spending an awful lot of money for
10 something they were never found guilty to have
11 done.
12 I would also suggest that -- I
13 voted for this bill in the past. I'm going to
14 vote for it again. I think it's a good poster
15 bill. I think it does some good things. My
16 hope is that when it comes back maybe next
17 year after we approve it for the sixth or
18 seventh time in a row, that the bill will be
19 refined to better reflect the intricacies of
20 trying to apply this on a day-to-day basis.
21 When it gets there, I'll even
22 vote for it more emphatically than I do today.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
24 Secretary will read the last section.
25 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
1108
1 This act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
3 the roll.
4 (The Secretary called the
5 roll.)
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 bill is passed.
9 Senator Skelos.
10 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
11 if we could return to reports of standing
12 committees, I believe there's a report of the
13 Rules Committee at the desk. I ask that it be
14 read at this time.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: We'll
16 return to the order of reports of standing
17 committees. There is a report of the Rules
18 Committee at the desk.
19 The Secretary will read.
20 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
21 from the Committee on Rules, reports the
22 following bill directly for third reading:
23 Senate Print 6302, an act to
24 amend Chapter 115 of the Laws of 1995, by the
25 Committee on Rules.
1109
1 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
2 move to accept the report of the Rules
3 Committee.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 motion is to accept the report of the Rules
6 Committee. All those in favor signify by
7 saying aye.
8 (Response of "Aye".)
9 Opposed, nay.
10 (There was no response.)
11 The report is accepted. The
12 bill is reported directly to third reading.
13 Senator Skelos.
14 SENATOR SKELOS: At this time
15 if we could take up Senate Bill Number 6302.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Secretary will read.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 315, by the Senate Committee on Rules, Senate
20 Print 6302, an act to amend Chapter 115 of the
21 Laws of 1995, amending the General Business
22 Law, relating to hawkers and peddlers.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
24 Skelos.
25 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
1110
1 is there a message of necessity at the desk?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
3 is.
4 SENATOR SKELOS: Move to
5 accept.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 motion is to accept the message of necessity
8 on Senate Bill 6302. All those in favor
9 signify by saying aye.
10 (Response of "Aye".)
11 Opposed, nay.
12 (There was no response.)
13 The message is accepted.
14 The bill is advanced.
15 SENATOR SKELOS: Last section,
16 please.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
18 Explanation.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Skelos, an explanation has been requested by
21 Senator Dollinger.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: A careful
23 reading of this bill, Mr. President, extends
24 the existing, what is called the Peddlers Law,
25 from March 1st to April 1st.
1111
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
2 Secretary will read the last section.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just one
4 question.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Dollinger, on the bill.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you
8 just explain to me what the -- again through
9 you, Mr. President, to Senator Skelos, could
10 you just explain to me what the bill does,
11 what the underlying bill does. I remember we
12 did this peddler bill at some point earlier,
13 Mr. President, but I'm not -
14 SENATOR SKELOS: 6302, as I
15 explained and I think that is sufficient,
16 extends the law until April 1st, 1998.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
18 through you, Mr. President. Which law are we
19 talking about that we're extending?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you
21 asking Senator Skelos to yield to a question?
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would,
23 Mr. President.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
25 Pardon?
1112
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I would,
2 Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Skelos, do you yield?
5 SENATOR SKELOS: No, I don't
6 yield.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Senator refuses to yield.
9 Senator Dollinger.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
11 President, is there anybody on the Majority
12 who could explain this bill and tell me what
13 the bill is that we're extending so that at
14 least I will know, so before I cast a bill
15 that I guess it's not going to affect any of
16 my people, but I would like to know what the
17 bill is that we're extending? Again -
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Dollinger, which Senator are you asking to
20 yield?
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'll take
22 all comers, open mike, Mr. President.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: No
24 Senator is appearing to yield at this time.
25 Senator Dollinger, the floor is
1113
1 yours, if you wish.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
3 Mr. President.
4 I find it amazing that we go
5 through these exercises where we ask for a
6 little bit of courtesy on the floor of the
7 chamber and we don't get much and then all of
8 a sudden we do a bill that's going to extend
9 something. I guess someone somewhere has
10 figured out that we're right at the deadline
11 where we have to do something and, lo and
12 behold, we're right at that deadline right
13 now. Here comes a bill. I don't know what it
14 does.
15 I guess my vote is taken for
16 granted or maybe all 61 votes are taken for
17 granted, but I find it a shame that when
18 someone, whoever this guy is, Rules, who
19 passes all these bills, when we ask questions
20 about what the bills are and what they do, we
21 don't get any answers, and I can't believe
22 that -- I guess that's what democracy has come
23 to. You ask questions. You don't get answers
24 and you make votes in the dark. I guess there
25 are 35 votes that are maybe cast with a little
1114
1 bit of light, but it seems to me a silly way
2 to do business.
3 I've said it before. I'll say
4 it again. I'm going to say it time and time
5 and time again today. I think it's my
6 prerogative to do that and, frankly, when
7 maybe at some day it changes, if it ever
8 changes, I'll stop saying it.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 Secretary will read the last section.
11 Senator Leichter. Excuse me.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
13 President, on the bill.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
15 Leichter, on the bill.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: I think it's
17 unfortunate that a perfectly valid and
18 reasonable question is refused an answer.
19 Senator, we're now extending
20 the date of a law. Senator Dollinger asked a
21 perfectly reasonable question, what is the law
22 that we're extending? I think he's entitled
23 to an answer. I'm sure there's a number of
24 you sitting on this floor who can't really
25 remember exactly what the "peddlers law"
1115
1 does. Frankly, even though it's in my city,
2 I'm not 100 percent certain about every term
3 and provision of that law, but I think a
4 general description would be helpful, and I
5 think there's a certain arrogance on the part
6 of the Majority. I'm sorry to say this.
7 We're putting bills out. We'll pass whatever
8 we damn please and you're not even entitled to
9 ask questions about it. Well, I guess we
10 could always talk about the bill, and I guess
11 what you're saying is you have a lot of time
12 to spend on the floor and that's fine. I can
13 think of a lot of things I can speculate about
14 and talk about and maybe we should and maybe
15 in the meantime somebody will want to look up
16 that law and try to give Senator Dollinger an
17 answer.
18 I mean, this whole process
19 today started because one of our colleagues
20 here was treated in a very petty, shameful
21 manner. His bill was stolen. Somebody else
22 took his bill, put their name on it and
23 without even the courtesy of telling him and
24 it's so petty. It's so petty.
25 Aren't we out to serve the
1116
1 people of the state? Does anybody in Monroe
2 County who's affected by the legislation that
3 we debated earlier care whether the bill is
4 passed under the same of Senator Rath or
5 Senator Dollinger or Senator Smith or any name
6 that you want? The whole point is to pass the
7 law and it has no political implications
8 because I assume that Senator Rath is
9 extremely popular in her district and I don't
10 know whether she needs this additional notch
11 and this additional gubernatorial pen and my
12 belief is that Senator Dollinger is very
13 popular in his district. I think last time -
14 I don't know whether he even had an opponent
15 or whether he'll have an opponent this time,
16 but certainly whether his name is on the bill
17 or not is not going to change the political
18 universe in this state.
19 So I think Senator Dollinger
20 had a real grievance, but I think he also made
21 a very good substantive point in debating
22 Senator Rath as to the effective date of the
23 bill and who it would affect, and so on, and
24 things that could have been worked out if
25 somebody just had the courtesy to speak to
1117
1 him, and he's made it a point since then to
2 get up and to debate bills, I guess partly to
3 say, if you want to treat me this way, then
4 I'm going to ask that you get up and defend
5 your bills and actually it's been very useful
6 because ordinarily Senator Maltese's bill just
7 would have swept through and we would have the
8 chance, I guess to vote on it again next year,
9 the year after, and so on, but I think Senator
10 Dollinger happened to make some very good
11 points and since I had a lot of time, I read
12 the bill over ten times, and I thought of
13 something that could be done to improve that
14 bill. So maybe there's something to be gained
15 by this.
16 Now, we come to the next bill
17 and it's a bill, the "peddlers law" which
18 there was some furor about the few times that
19 that bill has been taken up, and Senator
20 Dollinger asked a perfectly legitimate
21 question. What law are we extending, and it
22 seems fair that before we extend the law, that
23 we ought to know what law we're extending and
24 the Majority says, "I'm not going to tell
25 you."
1118
1 Now, you might say in ordinary
2 circumstances you had this bill on your desk
3 for three days, you should have looked it up
4 yourself, but this bill just came out of
5 Rules. It was just printed. It's being
6 passed under a message of necessity. So
7 Senator Dollinger, nor for that matter other
8 members, had any way of knowing that this bill
9 was going to come before us and why is it
10 wrong to know what bill is being passed or
11 what law is being extended, and I think if
12 that question had been answered and it could
13 have been answered, I think fairly simply, we
14 probably would have gone on and we would be on
15 the next bill.
16 So it would seem to me that if
17 we had a more collegial and a more rational
18 and a more objective procedure here, and less
19 partisan and less political, I would think,
20 one, we would find that our work is going to
21 get done in a more expeditious manner, and I
22 think secondly we'll find out that we do a
23 better job, that we provide better service to
24 the people of the state of New York.
25 Now, if this proceeding was
1119
1 being televised -- and usually the only time
2 you see television cameras is when maybe some
3 member of the Majority has a bill, but if we
4 could have these proceedings televised as
5 congressional proceedings are, I suspect we
6 wouldn't have these sort of disruptions
7 because I think people would be too
8 embarrassed to do it. Would you want what
9 happened today shown to the people of the
10 state of New York? They would say, my God,
11 what is this, a kindergarten class or is this
12 the Legislature of what was once known as the
13 Empire State? I don't think you would expect
14 people in grade school to behave in this sort
15 of a petty fashion.
16 Now, on this particular bill,
17 as I remember, there was an issue about
18 licenses for peddlers and since there's a
19 provision of the law, if memory serves me,
20 that veterans are entitled to, I won't use the
21 word "peddle". There's something about the
22 word "peddle" that is somewhat demeaning,
23 although God knows many of our forebears who
24 came to this country, they started as peddlers
25 and did very well. I have an uncle or -
1120
1 great, great uncle by marriage who started as
2 a peddler in Texas and then ended up owning
3 ten big department stores. So there's really
4 nothing wrong with being a peddler, but I
5 think nowadays you don't like to be called a
6 peddler and I guess what the law provided is
7 not that all veterans but disabled veterans,
8 Senator Stachowski's particularly learned on
9 matters affecting veterans and the bills
10 pointed out -- so that disabled veterans were
11 excluded.
12 I think what happens, Senator
13 Dollinger, and Senator Goodman who's carried
14 this bill and very ably so and got it through
15 this Legislature a number of times, that in
16 the city of New York, particularly on Fifth
17 Avenue, people were taking advantage of the
18 disability exemption and were peddling in
19 great numbers on Fifth Avenue. Now, Fifth
20 Avenue maybe shouldn't be deserving of any
21 greater protection than any other street of
22 the state of New York, but on the other hand,
23 Fifth Avenue is sort of the mecca for
24 tourists, for shoppers, and it was a problem
25 in the city of New York and, I believe not
1121
1 only the current City administration but if
2 memory serves me, I think the previous City
3 administration under Mayor Dinkins, and maybe
4 it even goes back to the time of Mayor Koch
5 and, again, Senator Goodman would probably
6 know that, asked that we remove the exemption,
7 and I believe that was done and that bill or
8 that law then came up for renewal last year
9 and some of the veteran organizations looking
10 out for the interest of veterans were
11 concerned that this was being used in such a
12 manner that truly disabled veterans were being
13 denied rights that we think that they ought to
14 have, and again, if memory serves me, there
15 was some discussion, although I don't believe
16 it was in the bill, that an effort would be
17 made for truly disabled veterans to be placed
18 somewhere near Fifth Avenue, if not on the
19 avenue itself, that the City would have the
20 obligation of providing a specific zone where
21 these disabled veterans could go and sell
22 their wares, and that bill was passed last
23 year. I didn't remember, frankly, that it
24 only had a -- it was -- had a sunset date of
25 March 1, 1998 and that law is now being
1122
1 sunset, and I guess the aim and purpose of
2 this bill is to extend it for 30 days while
3 certain of the effects of the law and how the
4 law has been implemented and worked out could
5 be looked at and maybe there will be some
6 modifying language. I guess the interests
7 were trying to protect both those of the
8 disabled veterans and certainly everybody in
9 this house has their interests very much in
10 mind. On the other hand, there's an effort
11 and an intent to see that a major shopping
12 thoroughfare in New York City is not clogged
13 up with a lot of people selling their wares
14 there, competing with stores, driving tourists
15 away, and I think that is the issue.
16 So there's certainly nothing
17 offensive to my mind about this particular
18 bill. I think it makes a lot of sense and
19 with a little courtesy and a little
20 explanation, we might have been able to have
21 disposed of this bill before now.
22 Thank you.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
24 Dollinger, on the bill.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you
1123
1 very much, Mr. President.
2 Senator Leichter, I think that
3 when I have questions about Rules Committee
4 bills in the future, I think I'll just direct
5 them to you. There were one too many "I
6 think"s and "I suppose" and I understand in
7 your answer for me to have -- give it the full
8 weight of fact, but that was as good an
9 explanation as I have heard on this bill,
10 which I guess the only thing I have heard
11 about it is that it changes the date from
12 March to April, which is I guess all the bill
13 does.
14 Mr. President, my only reason
15 in rising today is that I have heard many
16 people in this chamber say that we ought to
17 run government more like a business. What I
18 find so fascinating about this is that if this
19 were a business under our Business Corporation
20 Law, we have a provision that says that if
21 you're a director of a corporation, you can go
22 in and inspect the records and all the
23 information in the corporation any time you
24 want. You not only have the right to ask
25 questions, you have an obligation to get
1124
1 answers before you do something. Look it up
2 in the Business Corporation Law, Section 700,
3 "Obligations of Directors." You're required
4 to do certain things.
5 Well, here we are the board of
6 directors of New York State and, lo and
7 behold, this place which is supposedly run
8 like a business that our president, I think
9 rightfully so, has brought many business
10 practices to, in the course of his two-year
11 tenure as the Senate leader, he heralds the
12 fact that we're running it like a business,
13 but yet we don't extend to the directors, the
14 members of the board the statutory obligations
15 that we would require of a director of a
16 business corporation. So we have this little
17 fiction. This little fiction is that we run
18 this house like a business, that we require
19 businesses, our corporations, to be run like
20 businesses, but when you look at our own
21 chamber, we can't even get answers to very
22 legitimate questions, simple questions.
23 What does the bill do?
24 Unanswered. Disappointing.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
1125
1 Secretary will read the last section.
2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
3 This act shall take effect immediately.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
5 the roll.
6 (The Secretary called the
7 roll.)
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL:
9 Announce the results when recorded.
10 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays
11 1, Senator Dollinger recorded in the negative.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 bill is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 101, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 5007, an
16 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
18 Explanation.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside
20 for the day.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
22 bill aside for the day.
23 The Secretary will continue to
24 read the controversial calendar.
25 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1126
1 107, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 3646, an
2 act to amend the Public Authorities Law.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
4 Explanation.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Leibell, an explanation of Calendar Number 107
7 has been requested by Senator Dollinger.
8 SENATOR LEIBELL: Mr.
9 President, this bill would specifically amend
10 Section 2417 of the Public Authorities Law to
11 add directors, officers and employees of
12 SONYMA to the list of persons who are defended
13 and indemnified by the state of New York.
14 As with all state defense and
15 indemnification, such would apply only for
16 actions made by such directors, officers and
17 employees that are within the scope of their
18 office, employment and authority.
19 Currently because directors,
20 officers and employees of the state of New
21 York Mortgage Agency are not provided with
22 state defense and indemnification, the agency
23 must incur private legal defense costs and
24 maintain expensive professional liability
25 insurance.
1127
1 These costs, if this bill
2 passes, could be redirected by providing more
3 affordable housing and more financing for
4 first-time home buyers, rather than being
5 wasted on unnecessary legal fees and insurance
6 premiums.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
8 you, Mr. President, if the sponsor would yield
9 to a couple of questions.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
11 Leibell, do you yield to a question by Senator
12 Dollinger?
13 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Senator yields.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Why at the
17 formation of SONYMA where provisions that you
18 seek to introduce, why were they not included
19 in the original enabling legislation?
20 SENATOR LEIBELL: I don't know
21 the answer to that and it was certainly before
22 me, but I would comment, I think it's a
23 historical curiosity that this and maybe
24 others were not included whereas many are.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
1128
1 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Leibell
2 would -
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, I do.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: He will?
7 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Senator yields.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't it a
11 fact when SONYMA was created, it was going to
12 be in essence the equivalent of a
13 free-standing agency that would be out in the
14 marketplace doing some things on its own,
15 standing on its own legs and, therefore, it
16 wasn't entitled to that indemnification and
17 hold harmless protection that we only accord
18 to people who are acting in a state capacity,
19 in essence, acting like the king. This is
20 really acting like a private enterprise, isn't
21 this correct?
22 SENATOR LEIBELL: It is a
23 subdivision of our state but SONYMA is a
24 public authority.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
1129
1 through you, Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But SONYMA
5 was involved -
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Dollinger, excuse me.
8 Senator Leibell, do you
9 continue to yield?
10 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, I do.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Senator continues to yield.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: SONYMA was
14 involved in a business -- in the mortgage
15 business and, in essence, although it was
16 chartered by the state of New York and formed
17 as an authority by the state of New York, is
18 really in a business of participating in the
19 private marketplace, was it not?
20 SENATOR LEIBELL: There are
21 many organizations that come within the state
22 that deal in the private marketplace. There
23 are many out there that function similarly to
24 SONYMA would have these protections, but this
25 agency just does not.
1130
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
2 through you, Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
6 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I note in
7 your memorandum in support, you indicate that
8 UDC, MAC and the HFA have similar
9 indemnification divisions. What other state
10 agencies that are in the same general business
11 activity as SONYMA do not have this hold
12 harmless indemnification provision?
13 SENATOR LEIBELL: I'm not aware
14 of any.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So this -
16 again through you, Mr. President, if Senator
17 Leibell would continue to yield.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
20 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
21 President.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: I know
23 it's all right with Senator Farley, but I
24 wasn't sure about you.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: So it
1131
1 appears as though this is the only state
2 agency that doesn't have this protection; is
3 that what I understand you to say?
4 SENATOR LEIBELL: Well, no. I
5 was trying to answer your question and your
6 question was what others do not, and I'm not
7 aware of any others that do not.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
9 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Leibell
10 would continue -
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
13 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
14 President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Senator continues to yield.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As I
18 understand, this indemnification and hold
19 harmless will be triggered upon a finding by a
20 jury that they weren't acting in bad faith, is
21 that correct?
22 SENATOR LEIBELL: Counsel is
23 checking. It's a defense. So, in other
24 words, when an action is commenced, the
25 defense would begin.
1132
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But the -
2 again through you, Mr. President, if Senator
3 Leibell would continue to yield.
4 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Senator yields.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That would
8 be an affirmative defense of indemnification
9 raised by SONYMA and its officers and
10 directors because this would apply to them,
11 isn't that correct? So it would be raised as
12 an affirmative defense. It would be the
13 obligation of them to prove that they were not
14 acting in bad faith, is that correct?
15 SENATOR LEIBELL: No. If they
16 are sued, they would -- under this, if they
17 are sued, they would get a defense and be
18 indemnified.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
20 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Leibell
21 will continue to yield.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Leibell, do you continue to yield? The
24 Senator continues to yield.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm trying
1133
1 to determine how the indemnification is
2 triggered. An action is bought against an
3 officer or director in their individual
4 capacity.
5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Okay.
6 There's no affirmative defense.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
8 through you, Mr. President. You've thrown me
9 a curve ball. If it isn't an affirmative
10 defense, what is it?
11 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, this
12 is really straightforward. We are attempting
13 to put SONYMA in the same position as many
14 other authorities. Other similar public
15 authorities which are currently afforded state
16 defense and indemnification include the state
17 Urban Development Corporation, the Project
18 Finance Agency, Municipal Assistance
19 Corporation, the Housing Finance Agency, the
20 Facilities Development Corporation, the Long
21 Island Power Authority, the State University
22 Construction Fund, the Local Government
23 Assistance Corporation and the State Energy
24 Research & Development Authority.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
1134
1 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Leibell
2 would continue -
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 Senator yields.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm simply
9 trying to determine how the indemnification is
10 triggered. I read it to say that it says they
11 shall be entitled to it. Is it presumed that
12 they are indemnified to start and then if they
13 aren't indemnified, who would have the burden
14 of proof to show that they would not have
15 acted in good faith for a purpose which is
16 reasonably believed to be in the best interest
17 of the agency or not to have reasonable cause
18 to believe this conduct is lawful. When is
19 that proof presented where it says, "for a
20 judicial determination"?
21 SENATOR LEIBELL: Upon verdict
22 they will get indemnification.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
24 through you, Mr. President.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
1135
1 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
2 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Senator continues to yield.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Does that
6 mean that the director and officer of SONYMA
7 has to go through the entire trial not knowing
8 whether they'll be indemnified by the state
9 and whether their costs and expenses will be
10 paid?
11 SENATOR LEIBELL: You're not
12 going to know you're indemnified until you get
13 a verdict.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
15 through you, Mr. President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Leibell, do you continue to yield?
18 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Senator continues to yield.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is that the
22 way we trigger indemnification for all the
23 agency employees and directors for all those
24 other agencies? They go to trial, hire a
25 private counsel not knowing whether they'll be
1136
1 entitled to indemnification; we force them to
2 pay all the money themselves without our
3 fronting the money?
4 SENATOR LEIBELL: You wouldn't
5 be hiring private counsel here. The state
6 would provide your defense. If there's a
7 verdict against you, you would then be
8 indemnified.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But if the
10 verdict -- again through you, Mr. President.
11 I apologize.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Leibell, do you continue to yield? The
14 Senator continues to yield.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But if the
16 -- you would be indemnified unless the
17 verdict went against you, unless the word -
18 you're entitled to indemnification, the state
19 pays for the cost of defense, pays the cost of
20 any judgment against you, that's
21 indemnification and hold harmless. The only
22 way that can be reviewed is by a judicial
23 determination that you weren't acting with a
24 reasonable belief that it was lawful.
25 SENATOR LEIBELL: Within the
1137
1 scope of your employment.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay. So
3 you get the indemnification up front and it's
4 only upon a later determination that you would
5 be stripped of it if you were determined to be
6 acting outside the scope of your employment.
7 SENATOR LEIBELL: That would be
8 correct.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: That's what
10 I thought.
11 Again through you, Mr.
12 President, one final question.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Leibell, do you yield for one final question?
15 The Senator yields.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: To whom
17 will this indemnification apply? How far down
18 the ladder, chain of authority at SONYMA, will
19 be protected by this indemnification and hold
20 harmless clause?
21 SENATOR LEIBELL: As in my
22 opening statement, I said it would be
23 directors, officers and employees acting
24 within the scope of their employment.
25 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'm
1138
1 satisfied, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator
2 Leibell.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
6 This act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
8 the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the
10 roll.)
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 bill is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 127, by Senator Present, Senate Print 532, an
16 act to amend the General Municipal Law.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
18 Explanation.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Present, an explanation of Calendar Number 127
21 has been requested by Senator Dollinger.
22 SENATOR PRESENT: Mr.
23 President, the purpose of this bill is to
24 promote jobs, industry in this state by
25 encouraging local municipalities to purchase
1139
1 from New York State owned and operated
2 companies.
3 Currently the General Municipal
4 Law of the state requires counties and
5 municipalities to award work or purchase
6 contracts to the lowest bidder. This gives
7 the counties no ability to give preference to
8 New York State workers or out of -- if out-of
9 state companies with out-of-state workers
10 submit the lowest bid.
11 This legislation would allow
12 counties and municipalities to award contracts
13 to companies who work and employ persons in
14 New York State as long as their bid comes
15 within five percent of the lowest bid
16 submitted for that contract.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
18 President, if the sponsor will yield to a
19 couple of questions.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Present, do you yield to a question from
22 Senator Dollinger?
23 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
25 Senator yields.
1140
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Senator, do
2 you have any opinion from the Attorney General
3 that this bill is constitutional in view of
4 the requirement, I believe in the state
5 Constitution, that we award our bids to the
6 lowest responsible bidder?
7 SENATOR PRESENT: No. I have
8 no opinion from the Attorney General.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The statute
10 -- the proposed bill makes -
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
12 Dollinger, you're asking Senator Present to
13 yield again?
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I am, Mr.
15 President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Present, do you yield to another question from
18 Senator Dollinger?
19 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
21 Senator yields.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
23 Mr. President.
24 The proposed bill on page 2,
25 line 4, refers to a finding by a local
1141
1 governing body that such bidder shall
2 manufacture, produce, fabricate, grow, or
3 distribute materials called for in the
4 contract and will employ the residents of the
5 state in the performance of such contracts.
6 Is it your intent to make that requirement a
7 part of the bidding process, that every bidder
8 would have to submit that information?
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Every New
10 York State bidder.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
12 you, Mr. President.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Present?
15 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Would
17 Senator Present continue to yield?
18 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
20 Senator yields.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Even if
22 there were an out-of-state bidder who was
23 going to use New York labor and New York
24 materials, that out-of-state bidder would have
25 to provide the information requested, isn't
1142
1 that correct?
2 SENATOR PRESENT: I think
3 you're right.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: And through
5 you, Mr. President, if Senator Present would
6 continue to yield.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Present, do you yield?
9 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Senator yields.
12 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Who on the
13 local governing body is it your intention to
14 make -- or enable to make this decision about
15 content -- local content or statewide content
16 of the materials?
17 SENATOR PRESENT: Who?
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Who?
19 SENATOR PRESENT: I believe it
20 probably would be the committee that had the
21 spec's for this bid drawn up and let and
22 received, Transportation Committee, the
23 Housing Committee, whatever.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay.
25 Again through you, Mr. President.
1143
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Present, do you continue to yield?
3 (Senator Present nods head.)
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there
5 any process for a hearing or investigation as
6 part of this bill? For example, if a
7 contractor makes a representation that someone
8 suggests may not be true, is there any
9 opportunity for a hearing on the validity of
10 the representations made by the contractor?
11 SENATOR PRESENT: No, there's
12 no provision for appeal.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
14 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Present
15 would continue to yield.
16 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Senator continues to yield.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Don't you
20 think it would be appropriate to have some
21 form of hearing to allow the local governing
22 board to determine the accuracy of
23 representations made by contractors with
24 respect to local content?
25 SENATOR PRESENT: No, I don't
1144
1 think that's necessary at this time.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: One final
3 question for Senator Present, Mr. President.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
5 Present, do you continue to yield?
6 SENATOR PRESENT: Yes.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Senator continues to yield.
9 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Do you have
10 any guidelines, Senator, for how many
11 employees would need to be -- of this state
12 would need to be hired by this contractor in
13 order to justify varying our public bidding
14 laws? Is there any threshold number, 5, 10,
15 15 employees that would have to be hired in
16 order to justify us doing something other than
17 taking the lowest possible bid?
18 SENATOR PRESENT: No, sir.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay.
20 Thank you, Mr. President.
21 On the bill.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Dollinger, on the bill.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I also
25 appreciate Senator Present's courtesy extended
1145
1 to me in answering my questions.
2 This bill which I think I voted
3 for in the past -- my guess is I did -- again
4 has a very good idea and that is, let's
5 promote local content. Let's increase the use
6 of New York State materials, New York State
7 requirements, New York State employees in our
8 construction contracts, in all of our
9 contracts. Let's encourage people to buy New
10 York State. I think it's a great idea, and I
11 think that this bill, in part, contains that.
12 I think it's fatally flawed -
13 may be fatally flawed for two reasons: One, I
14 think it's a departure from our state
15 constitutional requirement for accepting
16 lowest possible bids; two, I think without a
17 hearing process in it, without some way to
18 verify the representations made by the local
19 contractor. Quite frankly, I think the bill
20 could use a little extra draftsmanship, a
21 little refinement so we actually get something
22 that really achieves the goal that Senator
23 Present and I agree would be a good idea,
24 which is to give local preferences to people
25 who are using New York State labor.
1146
1 I voted for it in the past.
2 I'll vote for it again.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
4 Secretary will read the last section.
5 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
6 This act shall take effect immediately.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
8 the roll.
9 (The Secretary called the
10 roll.)
11 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 bill is passed.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 161, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1499, an
16 act to amend the Public Health law.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
18 Explanation.
19 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
21 bill aside.
22 The Secretary will continue to
23 read.
24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
25 209, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 150, an
1147
1 act to amend the Environmental Conservation
2 Law.
3 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside
4 for the day.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
6 bill aside for the day.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 210, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 389, an
9 act to amend the Environmental Conservation
10 Law.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
12 Explanation.
13 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay the bill
14 aside for the day.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
16 bill aside for the day.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 219, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3890, an
19 act to amend the County Law.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
21 Explanation.
22 SENATOR SKELOS: Lay the bill
23 aside for the day.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
25 bill aside for the day.
1148
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 220, by Senator Cook, Senate Print 4647, an
3 act to amend the Town Law.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
5 Explanation.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
7 Cook, an explanation of Calendar Number 220
8 has been requested by Senator Dollinger.
9 SENATOR COOK: Thank you, Mr.
10 President.
11 The position of town counsel -
12 constable is an old and revered title. It
13 goes back, I guess probably to Colonial days
14 and originally it was a position. In fact, I
15 think at one point it may have even been an
16 elected position, but in more recent times
17 it's become an appointed position, but the
18 interesting thing was that as towns got bigger
19 and second class towns can have constables
20 until they reach the population of 10,000, so
21 that some towns have numerous constables but
22 there has never been a provision for somebody
23 to be the chief. So consequently every
24 constable that a town employs in theory at
25 least reports directly to the town board,
1149
1 entire town board which, of course, makes it
2 in modern times pretty impossible in a town
3 that may have 9,000 population, may have eight
4 or nine constables to be each of them
5 reporting on an equal basis directly to the
6 town board.
7 So what this bill does -- and
8 quite honestly, most of the towns have sort of
9 blinked at that and somebody has been, in
10 effect, acting as the chief constable, but
11 there is really no provision in law that
12 provides for that and this bill simply is to
13 make honest people out of those who have been
14 doing the right thing all along, but there
15 hasn't been any statutory authorization for
16 it.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
18 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Cook
19 would yield to a couple of questions.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Cook, do you yield? The Senator yields.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What are
23 the duties of a chief constable?
24 SENATOR COOK: Well, the chief
25 constable is basically in the same manner as
1150
1 the chief of police to make the job
2 assignments, preside over the general
3 operation of the constable -- the constables
4 of the town.
5 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
6 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Cook
7 will continue to yield.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
9 Cook, do you continue to yield?
10 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Senator yields.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Cook, are those duties spelled out in
15 statute?
16 SENATOR COOK: No, they're not,
17 Senator. The town board would have the
18 authority. Since the town board appoints all
19 of the constables in the town, the town board
20 would be the one to create the chief
21 constable. They are the ones who would also
22 determine what the powers and authorities of
23 the constable are.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
25 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Cook
1151
1 will yield.
2 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Isn't it
4 possible under the current Town Law for towns
5 to create the position of chief constable, or
6 for that matter, the principal constable or
7 the lead constable or the boss constable or
8 the number one constable versus the number
9 two, number three and simply through the Town
10 Law, in the exercising of its own discretion,
11 without assistance from us, create a hierarchy
12 of authority and reporting responsibilities in
13 the towns?
14 SENATOR COOK: Well, Senator,
15 as a practical matter, that's what they have
16 been doing but it also as a legal matter, they
17 technically have not had the legal authority
18 to do it and that's all we're trying to take
19 care of here.
20 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
21 through you, Mr. President, if Senator will
22 yield.
23 SENATOR COOK: Yes.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
25 Senator yields.
1152
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: What are
2 the legal problems with doing it through the
3 Town Law versus having a state enabling
4 statute?
5 SENATOR COOK: The only
6 problem, Senator, is that if at some point
7 someone challenges the authority of the chief
8 constable either operating under authority of
9 the town board or if the town board actually
10 creates this position, the courts, as you
11 know, have more than once out... overruled
12 something that localities have done simply on
13 the basis that there exists no statutory
14 authority to do it, and that's all we're
15 really trying to remedy.
16 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: Excuse me,
18 Mr. President.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
20 Leichter, why do you rise?
21 SENATOR LEICHTER: Point of
22 order. I don't believe that we have a quorum
23 here. I see an absence of a quorum, Mr.
24 President, and either we should adjourn or, if
25 the President wishes to have a quorum call,
1153
1 that's fine but there certainly aren't 31
2 members here at the present time.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Are you
4 requesting a quorum call, Senator?
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm asking a
6 quorum call.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Secretary will read.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Abate.
10 (There was no response.)
11 Senator Alesi.
12 (There was no response.)
13 Senator Balboni.
14 (There was no response.)
15 Senator Breslin.
16 (There was no response.)
17 Senator Bruno.
18 (Indication of present.)
19 Senator Connor.
20 (Indication of present.)
21 Senator Cook.
22 SENATOR COOK: Here.
23 THE SECRETARY: Senator
24 DeFrancisco.
25 (There was no response.)
1154
1 Senator Dollinger.
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Here,
3 present.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
5 SENATOR FARLEY: Here.
6 THE SECRETARY: Senator
7 Gentile.
8 SENATOR GENTILE: Here.
9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Gold.
10 (There was no response.)
11 Senator Gonzalez, excused.
12 Senator Goodman.
13 SENATOR GOODMAN: Here.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon.
15 SENATOR HANNON: Here.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Hoffmann.
18 (There was no response.)
19 Senator Holland.
20 SENATOR HOLLAND: Here.
21 THE SECRETARY: Senator
22 Johnson.
23 (There was no response.)
24 Senator Kruger.
25 SENATOR KRUGER: Here.
1155
1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
2 SENATOR KUHL: Present.
3 THE SECRETARY: Senator
4 Lachman.
5 (There was no response.)
6 Senator Lack.
7 (There was no response.)
8 Senator Larkin.
9 SENATOR LARKIN: Here.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator
11 LaValle.
12 SENATOR LAVALLE: Here.
13 THE SECRETARY: Senator
14 Leibell.
15 SENATOR LEIBELL: Here.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Leichter.
18 SENATOR LEICHTER: Present.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
20 (There was no response.)
21 Senator Maltese.
22 (There was no response.)
23 Senator Marcellino.
24 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Present.
25 THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
1156
1 SENATOR MARCHI: Here.
2 THE SECRETARY: Senator
3 Markowitz.
4 SENATOR MARKOWITZ: Here.
5 THE SECRETARY: Senator
6 Maziarz.
7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Here.
8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Meier.
9 SENATOR MEIER: Present.
10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
11 (There was no response.)
12 Senator Montgomery.
13 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Here.
14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
15 SENATOR NANULA: Here.
16 THE SECRETARY: Senator
17 Nozzolio.
18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Present.
19 THE SECRETARY: Senator
20 Onorato.
21 SENATOR ONORATO: Mr.
22 President, to explain my presence. I'm happy
23 to be here, to be part of the quorum.
24 Thank you.
25 THE SECRETARY: Senator
1157
1 Oppenheimer, excused.
2 Senator Padavan.
3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Here.
4 THE SECRETARY: Senator
5 Paterson.
6 SENATOR PATERSON: Can I
7 explain my presence?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
9 is a quorum present. We're on debate on
10 Calendar Number 220 by Senator Cook.
11 The Secretary will read the
12 last section.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
14 President. On the bill, Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
16 Dollinger, on the bill.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
18 President, this is one of those bills that
19 we've done, I'm sure before, we'll do again.
20 I don't object to Senator Cook trying to
21 remedy what appears to be a minor gap in the
22 statute. It is a little teeny-weeny,
23 itsy-bitsy issue, whether you can have a chief
24 constable. I don't believe -- it's a kind of
25 solution looking for a problem because even as
1158
1 Senator Cook admitted, there's really no
2 evident problem, no problems that have arose
3 yet and yet what we're going to do is we're
4 going to create another title in government.
5 We're going to create another layer of
6 government. We're going to decide here that
7 this is the right thing for towns to do, to
8 give towns the ability to do it. We're
9 creating more government. Why we would be
10 creating more government is beyond me.
11 I have heard all kinds of
12 rhetoric in this house in the last five years
13 about creating less government, doing less
14 with government, using less of the heavy hand
15 of government to accomplish these things and
16 quite frankly, here we are creating more
17 government.
18 Senator Cook, this may be a
19 solution, but I don't think there's a problem
20 to attach it to.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
22 Secretary will read the last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
24 This act shall take effect immediately.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
1159
1 the roll.
2 (The Secretary called the
3 roll.)
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Record
5 the negatives and announce the results.
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 56, nays
7 2, Senator Dollinger and Leichter recorded in
8 the negative.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
10 bill is passed.
11 Senator Skelos.
12 SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
13 would you please take up Senator Hannon's
14 bill, Calendar Number 161.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 Secretary will read the title to Calendar
17 Number 161.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 161, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1499, an
20 act to amend the Public Health Law.
21 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
22 Explanation.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
24 Hannon, an explanation of Calendar Number 161
25 has been requested by Senator Dollinger.
1160
1 SENATOR HANNON: Thank you, Mr.
2 President.
3 This legislation would allow a
4 city or a county government to seek
5 indemnification from the insurance company
6 which insures a prisoner when that prisoner
7 has received covered medical services and the
8 individual covered has been then contained in
9 a city or county correctional facility.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
11 you, Mr. President. Will Senator Hannon yield
12 to a couple of questions?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
14 Hannon, do you yield??
15 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
17 Senator yields.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Pursuant to
19 your bill, Senator Hannon, how does the county
20 find out that the prisoner has health
21 insurance?
22 SENATOR HANNON: Ask.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
24 you, Mr. President.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
1161
1 Hannon, will you yield to another question?
2 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where is
3 that authorized in the -
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
5 me, Senator Dollinger. I didn't hear Senator
6 Hannon.
7 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 Senator yields.
10 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Where is
11 that authorized in statute that you can
12 inquire of a prisoner whether he's got health
13 insurance?
14 SENATOR HANNON: As part of the
15 intake process to have an individual become a
16 resident of a correctional facility, one goes
17 through a whole series of questions and that
18 would be one of them.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
20 you, Mr. President. Is there any provision in
21 here that says that the prisoner is compelled
22 to grant -- to give that information? Through
23 you, Mr. President. Is there anything that
24 compels him to give that information?
25 SENATOR HANNON: Nope.
1162
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there
2 any -- through you, Mr. President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
4 Hannon, do you continue to yield? The Senator
5 continues to yield.
6 SENATOR HANNON: Yes. Excuse
7 me.
8 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Is there
9 anything in your bill that gives the local
10 community, the city or the county the ability
11 to go out and independently investigate and
12 find out those facts for themselves?
13 SENATOR HANNON: I would think
14 they would have general power for somebody
15 under the care to make a general inquiry if
16 that was the case.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
18 Dollinger.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
20 you, Mr. President.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Hannon, do you continue to yield?
23 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, sir.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
25 Senator continues to yield.
1163
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Your bill
2 makes reference, Senator, to any necessary
3 forms on behalf of the person receiving
4 medical services. What kind of forms are you
5 talking about with respect to that, Senator?
6 SENATOR HANNON: Claim forms.
7 SENATOR DOLLINGER: They would
8 file -- again through you, Mr. President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
10 Hannon, do you continue to yield?
11 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
13 Senator continues to yield.
14 SENATOR DOLLINGER: The county
15 would be able to file the claim form directly
16 with the insurance carrier?
17 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
18 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
19 you, Mr. President. Does those claim forms
20 require the signature of the prisoner?
21 SENATOR HANNON: No.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
23 you, Mr. President, just -
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Hannon, do you continue to yield?
1164
1 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: -- two
3 final questions. One is what's the dollar
4 amount of anticipated reimbursement for these
5 expenses?
6 SENATOR HANNON: It's not known
7 since this is not something that would be
8 asked of everybody but just people who have
9 insurance and we haven't taken any surveys of
10 that.
11 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
12 through you, Mr. President. Do you know how
13 many people in New York State would have been
14 affected by this provision in the course of,
15 let's say the last five years?
16 SENATOR HANNON: No, but from
17 the number of people who had considerable
18 assets and who were incarcerated and who were
19 reported to have received medical services for
20 which the county or city had to pay, I would
21 say that it would be significant.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Just a
23 final question as a follow-up, Mr. President.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Hannon, do you continue to yield?
1165
1 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator continues to yield.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Could you
5 define the term "significant" for me, Senator,
6 so I can make some judgment about what we're
7 talking about, hundreds of thousands,
8 millions, ten thousands.
9 SENATOR HANNON: Senator, I
10 wouldn't. However, I would point out that you
11 have not only voted for this on the floor
12 twice in the last two years but also you voted
13 for it correspondingly when it came out of
14 committee.
15 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
16 Mr. President.
17 Senator Hannon is absolutely
18 correct. I voted for this bill in the past.
19 Senator, I want to thank you for extending the
20 courtesy of answering my questions on this
21 bill. I know we've been through this before.
22 There were other bills that were on the floor
23 that we hadn't been through before, where I
24 asked a couple of questions and couldn't get
25 any answers. Nobody wanted to answer.
1166
1 I think it's great that we have
2 a chamber where the courtesy is extended even
3 though we've done the bill two or three times
4 before, someone will get up, answer a couple
5 of reasonable questions and give some
6 reasonable answers.
7 Frankly, I couldn't understand
8 what happened about 45 minutes ago, but I
9 appreciate it, Senator. I think you're
10 right. I don't think this is a bad idea. I
11 now fully understand it.
12 I'll vote yes like I did
13 before.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
15 Secretary will read the last section.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
17 President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
19 Leichter, you wish to speak?
20 SENATOR LEICHTER: If Senator
21 Hannon would yield.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Hannon, do you yield to a question -
24 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator
25 Hannon -
1167
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Leichter -- excuse me, Senator Leichter. I
3 would like to find out if the Senator would
4 yield.
5 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Mr.
6 President.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
8 Senator yields.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator,
10 just one thing struck me as I looked at the
11 bill and I don't believe that was -- this
12 applies to counties and local governments, is
13 that correct?
14 SENATOR HANNON: Counties and
15 cities.
16 SENATOR LEICHTER: Counties and
17 cities. How about the state? Do we presently
18 have a provision which allows the state to get
19 third-party reimbursement?
20 SENATOR HANNON: I'm not aware
21 of that, and I don't think the situation
22 necessarily arises because if you get
23 incarcerated and you're in a state facility,
24 you're there for more than a year. So this is
25 not a situation where you're temporarily
1168
1 incarcerated and in and out of the city or
2 county jail. So that's -- you're more apt to
3 have individual insurance coverage.
4 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
5 President, if Senator Hannon will be good
6 enough to continue to yield.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Hannon, do you continue to yield?
9 SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
11 Senator continues to yield.
12 SENATOR LEICHTER: Senator, I
13 understand your response, and I think it makes
14 perfectly good sense what you're trying to do,
15 but I think there is a gap. I can certainly
16 envisage a situation where somebody is
17 sentenced to jail, it may be for life, but
18 maybe for that first year, if they still have
19 some third-party insurance, why shouldn't the
20 state get the benefit of it?
21 All I'm trying to do is take
22 your good idea and have it apply also to those
23 situations -
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
25 Leichter, I don't mean to interrupt the
1169
1 quality of debate or the quantity of the
2 debate but it's a little difficult to hear
3 when you turn with these new microphones. If
4 you're going to turn, if you could stand a
5 little closer toward Senator Onorato, I think
6 the microphone will pick that up but it's
7 cutting in and out, and I know that's
8 difficult for the stenographer to pick that
9 up.
10 SENATOR LEICHTER: Thank you,
11 Mr. President.
12 And it's not that I don't like
13 to be near Senator Onorato. It's just as a
14 matter of courtesy one turns towards the
15 Senator with whom one's having the debate or
16 the discussion, but I understand our new
17 'phones don't seem to allow that. So excuse
18 me, Senator Hannon, for having my back to you,
19 but just to repeat very quickly briefly my
20 question. It is, why don't we carry a good
21 idea over to those instances where somebody
22 who is incarcerated in a state facility may
23 have insurance? It may be insurance that's
24 going to last only for another year or even
25 less amount of time, but it would just seem to
1170
1 me to make sense to cover that eventuality.
2 SENATOR HANNON: Senator, since
3 -- I won't reply since that's not a
4 question.
5 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sorry.
6 I didn't hear the -
7 SENATOR HANNON: It's not a
8 question, so I don't need to reply.
9 SENATOR LEICHTER: Well, my
10 question is wouldn't it make sense to have it
11 apply also to the state? Couldn't you
12 envisage one or two or maybe more situations
13 where the state would be entitled to
14 reimbursement?
15 SENATOR HANNON: It's
16 possible.
17 SENATOR LEICHTER: And,
18 therefore, don't you think it would make sense
19 to have this bill also apply to the state?
20 SENATOR HANNON: I'm just
21 trying to deal with one problem at a time.
22 There's lots of problems with prisoner health
23 care. This, I thought, was a fair thing so
24 people who have individual wealth and
25 individual coverage are not getting covered at
1171
1 the sacrifice of others who don't have that
2 wealth.
3 SENATOR LEICHTER: Mr.
4 President, on the bill.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
6 Leichter, on the bill.
7 SENATOR LEICHTER: I'm sort of
8 sorry about Senator Hannon's response because
9 it would seem to me, Senator, that it's a
10 natural logical progression from what you're
11 trying to do to also include the state. I
12 would say it's more than a progression. It
13 would just seem that any level of government
14 ought to have the benefits that you're
15 providing for cities and counties in this
16 particular bill. It's not a matter that we
17 can only do one problem at a time. This is,
18 first of all, part of the same problem which
19 is to take advantage of third-party
20 reimbursement for levels of government.
21 Secondly, it certainly fits
22 into the context of this bill and it's a
23 simple enough matter for you to amend the bill
24 and say you're going to put in another bill.
25 I mean, it's -- you seem somehow offended that
1172
1 anybody would make the suggestion that
2 anything you put out on the floor, Senator
3 Hannon, is of such perfection that it's
4 impossible for anybody, least of all somebody
5 from the Minority, to presume to think that
6 they could improve upon your handiwork.
7 Well, I think my suggestion and
8 most of my suggestions, frankly, you might not
9 want to take, but here's one that I think
10 makes sense and you obviously -- or obviously
11 you've conceded that there are instances, yes,
12 where the state might benefit if it had the
13 ability to draw down on some of these
14 third-party insurance.
15 So I don't think an idea like
16 mine has to be met with solemnness or as if
17 it's an affront. I think that's what we're
18 about here, trying to work together to improve
19 the job product and help the people of the
20 state of New York.
21 I'm going to vote for this
22 bill, but I certainly hope, Senator Hannon,
23 that you might consider having a bill that
24 would also give this very same benefit to the
25 state of New York.
1173
1 SENATOR HANNON: Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Hannon.
4 SENATOR HANNON: I appreciate
5 the word "perfection", but grudgingly, I must
6 add -- and I don't want you to feel paranoid
7 about this -- that the bill came about because
8 we were trying to help the City health care
9 system, the city of New York, and it came from
10 an article when it was twigged that it said
11 "As the City health care system braces for
12 nearly $820 million in Medicaid cuts proposed
13 by Lieutenant Governor Elizabeth McCaughey,
14 City Hall points to a prison health care
15 system whose costs are borne almost entirely
16 by the City" and it pointed out that one of
17 these rock stars had been in Bellevue and when
18 Bellevue went to bill that rock star's health
19 insurer, the health insurer didn't ignore it
20 because they expected to be informed that the
21 person was now a ward of the City. So to try
22 to benefit that health care system, I thought
23 this was an apt piece of legislation.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
25 President.
1174
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
2 Dollinger, on the bill.
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr.
4 President, I appreciate the comments of the
5 chairman of the Health Committee, and I think
6 this bill would -- the spirit and intention of
7 this bill is a good one, but let me just throw
8 out one example that the chairman of the
9 Health Committee might appreciate, which might
10 go even a long way to making this bill work.
11 Most of those health insurers,
12 if they're covered by HMOs, will not reimburse
13 the services if they're not approved by the
14 primary care physician. There's nothing in
15 this bill that waives that requirement.
16 So we get the bill. We submit
17 the bill to the HMO. We say, pay the HMO the
18 cost of the medical services and the HMO says,
19 We're not going to pay those costs. They
20 weren't authorized beforehand by the primary
21 health care provider. The prisoner didn't
22 comply with the requirements of the HMO and,
23 therefore, we're not going to pay the bill.
24 We wouldn't pay it for the prisoner. We're
25 not going to pay it for the city of New York.
1175
1 A little bit more thinking on
2 the bill might produce, I agree with Senator
3 Leichter, a better idea and a way to maybe
4 actually make the bill work.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
6 Secretary will read the last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
8 This act shall take effect immediately.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
10 the roll.
11 (The Secretary called the
12 roll.)
13 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
14 SENATOR GOLD: Mr. President.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
16 bill is passed.
17 Senator Gold, why do you rise?
18 SENATOR GOLD: First to say
19 hello to you. How are you doing?
20 Mr. President, I was out of the
21 room on Calendar 151. I would be grateful if
22 I could be voted in the negative.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: That
24 was laid aside for the day, Senator Gold. So
25 that won't be necessary.
1176
1 SENATOR GOLD: Could you make a
2 note.
3 Thank you.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
5 Secretary will continue to read the
6 controversial calendar.
7 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
8 231, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 1977, an
9 act to amend the Penal Law.
10 SENATOR LARKIN: Lay it aside
11 for the day.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Lay the
13 bill aside for the day.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 276, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 5390, an
16 act to amend the General Municipal Law.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
18 Secretary -
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER:
20 Explanation.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
22 Larkin, an explanation of Calendar Number 276
23 has been requested by Senator Dollinger.
24 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Senator
25 Dollinger. This bill was -- is a repeater of
1177
1 1997 that was passed 60 to nothing.
2 This bill amends the General
3 Municipal Law in relation to making technical
4 amendments to authorizing nutrition programs
5 to purchase goods, supplies and services.
6 When Chapter 731 of the Laws of
7 1992 was passed, everybody thought that it was
8 totally inclusive but recently the comptroller
9 has requested some certain changes. So due to
10 the failure of Chapter 731 to encompass all of
11 those aspects of it, one of the counties,
12 Orange County in specific, was placed out of
13 the program because what they did was not
14 covered in competitive bids. They were buying
15 it outright from hospitals for Meals on
16 Wheels.
17 If this isn't passed this year,
18 this correction which everybody agrees is
19 essential to the Meals on Wheels program in
20 Orange County, the county will be out of the
21 program for three to four months when their
22 current contract expires.
23 This bill puts in operation
24 what we believe, what the Office of the Aging
25 and what the comptroller believes was the
1178
1 original intent of Chapter 731 of the Laws of
2 1992, which again I would repeat was passed 60
3 to nothing.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
5 you, Mr. President, if Senator Larkin would
6 continue to yield.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
8 Larkin, do you yield to a question?
9 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr.
10 President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
12 Senator yields.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe
14 I'm one of those 60 that voted for this bill
15 last time and I don't know whether I asked any
16 questions last time about it.
17 SENATOR LARKIN: You did not,
18 sir.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: But you've
20 always been very good in extending me the
21 courtesy of answering questions when I ask
22 them. So let me start with two quick ones.
23 Through you, Mr. President.
24 What's the dollar value that's purchased
25 through the nutrition programs, do you know?
1179
1 SENATOR LARKIN: You know,
2 Senator, if you look at your county is larger
3 than mine, so the dollar value in your county
4 would be larger than mine. Senator Wright's
5 district would be smaller.
6 I think the key thing, Senator,
7 you should -- I would like to remind you of is
8 no matter how they do it, this comes into some
9 federal money. It's going to be spent. It
10 isn't a case of squandering any money. It's
11 these people are doing it with the intent of a
12 direct action.
13 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
14 you, Mr. President. Let me make it very clear
15 up front.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
17 Larkin, do you continue to yield? Senator
18 Larkin.
19 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Meals on
20 Wheels -
21 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Excuse
22 me, Senator Dollinger.
23 Senator Larkin, do you continue
24 to yield?
25 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, Mr.
1180
1 President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
3 Senator continues to yield.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Through
5 you, Mr. President. Let me make very clear at
6 the start that the Meals on Wheels, the
7 nutrition programs that you referenced, as far
8 as I'm concerned, get every penny out of every
9 cent of every dollar that they spend on food
10 programs. I'm simply trying to find out how
11 big is the dollar volume of products purchased
12 through nutrition programs that receive state
13 and federal local money that we're now going
14 to waive the public bidding requirement?
15 SENATOR LARKIN: I think if you
16 just take a look at what we're talking about
17 here, let's take Meals on Wheels for the
18 specific, in your county based on what they're
19 purchasing, it could be voluminous. In my
20 county it would be smaller. It all depends on
21 the respective counties and the purchasing
22 that they're going to make.
23 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
24 through you, Mr. President.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
1181
1 Larkin, do you continue to yield?
2 (Senator Larkin nods head.)
3 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe,
4 Senator Larkin, my own county, there are about
5 3700 Meals on Wheels delivered every day. I
6 assume those meals cost a dollar, dollar and a
7 half apiece. If that's the case, then there's
8 $5,000 a day times seven days a week, that's
9 $35,000 a week times 52 weeks. That's a
10 million and a half dollars in my county alone
11 that we're going to waive the public bidding
12 requirements on.
13 I'm just asking, if this
14 applies statewide, it could be 10-, 20-, 30-,
15 40-, 50-, 60-, 100 million if you include the
16 city of New York.
17 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator, I
18 think if you take it from this point here, we
19 have a Meals on Wheels program in our county
20 -- I would like to just read something for
21 your information.
22 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Sure.
23 SENATOR LARKIN: In one of my
24 counties that I represent, the nutrition
25 program with nine dining sites, 60 home
1182
1 delivery routes serves 490 frail homebound
2 seniors a day. The annual total, 190,000
3 meals home delivered a year, 60,000 in their
4 nine sites.
5 What we're trying to do now is
6 make a cooperative effort so that they can
7 collectively purchase this here. The
8 cooperative effort that they have been
9 striving for will reduce the outcosts to
10 provide these meals, generate additional
11 revenue and let us take care of some other
12 people. It meets every requirement that there
13 is with the federal government, the state,
14 except that one glitch that there was a
15 concern about the competitive bidding,
16 period.
17 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Again
18 through you, Mr. President, if Senator Larkin
19 will -
20 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
21 Larkin, do you yield?
22 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes, one
23 more.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
25 Senator yields.
1183
1 SENATOR DOLLINGER: I think -
2 I understand your position, Senator. My
3 concern is this program, obviously if it's
4 generating 40,000 meals a year in your county,
5 and I think more than a million meals in my
6 county every single year, and obviously
7 throughout the state many millions of meals,
8 my question is, why shouldn't we require them
9 to get the best possible price for what they
10 buy, which is what the public bidding laws
11 were designed to do?
12 SENATOR LARKIN: I think if you
13 go back to the 1992 legislation, Chapter 731,
14 it exempts them from the competitive bidding.
15 We've already done that. What you're saying
16 is you would like to repeal what we did in
17 1992. What we're saying is we're trying to
18 correct a glitch in that piece of
19 legislation. We're not trying to amend it.
20 The legislation was very clear in 1992. It
21 exempted them because they recognized how they
22 could -- conglomerates could purchase this
23 food.
24 SENATOR DOLLINGER: Okay.
25 Again through you, Mr. President -- actually
1184
1 just on the bill, Mr. President.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
3 Dollinger, on the bill.
4 SENATOR DOLLINGER: As I
5 understand this bill -- and again, this is one
6 of the things that I'm not quite sure is
7 written in the text of the bill but, Senator,
8 I appreciate your explanation and the courtesy
9 you've shown to me in giving me that
10 explanation, but I understand that this
11 applies to cooperative purchasing agreements.
12 This gives local communities the ability to
13 bring all of the nutrition programs into a
14 cooperative and buy from the cooperative
15 rather than require each one to do it
16 separately.
17 That's been educational for
18 me. It makes me better understand the
19 building -- the bill. It gives me a better
20 understanding about why I should vote yes, and
21 I will.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
23 Secretary will read the last section.
24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2.
25 This act shall take effect immediately.
1185
1 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Call
2 the roll.
3 (The Secretary called the
4 roll.)
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes 58.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
7 bill is passed.
8 Senator Paterson, why do you
9 rise?
10 SENATOR PATERSON: Mr.
11 President, I wanted to explain my vote.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
13 Paterson, to explain his vote.
14 SENATOR PATERSON: I wanted to
15 explain that I am going to vote for Senator
16 Larkin's bill in spite of the fact that he has
17 limited me to three questions and extended
18 Senator Dollinger a fourth question, and the
19 reasons for that are being investigated by my
20 office right now but in the interim, I will
21 vote for this bill.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Senator
23 Paterson will be recorded in the affirmative.
24 Senator Larkin, we do have one
25 substitution. Can I read that?
1186
1 The Secretary will read the
2 substitution.
3 THE SECRETARY: On page 20,
4 Senator Marcellino moves to discharge from the
5 Committee on Environmental Conservation
6 Assembly Print number 1624 and substitute it
7 for the identical Senate Print 6216.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: The
9 substitution is ordered.
10 SENATOR LARKIN: Mr. President,
11 is there any other house... business up
12 there?
13 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: There
14 is no other housekeeping at the desk,
15 Senator.
16 SENATOR LARKIN: If there's
17 nothing, then I would move that we adjourn
18 until Tuesday, March the 3rd, at 3:00 p.m.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT KUHL: Without
20 objection, the Senate stands adjourned until
21 tomorrow, Tuesday, October 3rd, at 3:00 p.m.
22 -- excuse me -- March 3rd, at 3:00 p.m.
23 (Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the
24 Senate adjourned.)
25