Regular Session - June 9, 1998

                                                              4154

         1

         2

         3

         4

         5

         6

         7

         8

         9                   ALBANY, NEW YORK

        10                     June 9, 1998

        11                      3:05 p.m.

        12

        13

        14                   REGULAR SESSION

        15

        16

        17

        18       SENATOR RAYMOND A. MEIER, Acting President

        19       STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary

        20

        21

        22

        23

        24

        25







                                                          4155

         1                      P R O C E E D I N G S

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         3       Senate will come to order.  I ask everyone

         4       present to please rise and repeat with me the

         5       Pledge of Allegiance.

         6                      (The assemblage repeated the

         7       Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

         8                      In the absence of clergy, I now

         9       ask that we bow our heads in a moment of

        10       silence.

        11                      (A moment of silence was

        12       observed.)

        13                      Reading of the Journal.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  In Senate,

        15       Monday, June 8th.  The Senate met pursuant to

        16       adjournment.  The Journal of Sunday, June 7th,

        17       was read and approved.  On motion, Senate

        18       adjourned.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        20       Without objection, the Journal stands approved

        21       as read.

        22                      Presentation of petitions.

        23                      Messages from the Assembly.

        24                      Messages from the Governor.

        25                      Reports of standing







                                                          4156

         1       committees.

         2                      Reports of select committees.

         3                      Communications and reports from

         4       state officers.

         5                      Motions and resolutions.

         6                      Senator Marcellino.

         7                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Yes, Mr.

         8       President.  We have a busy agenda here.

         9                      Mr. President, on behalf of

        10       Senator Seward, I move to amend Senate Bill

        11       Number 7065-A by striking out the amendments

        12       made on May 8th and restoring it to its

        13       original Print Number 7065.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        15       Amendments received, and the bill will be

        16       restored to its original print number.

        17                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Thank you,

        18       Mr. President.

        19                      On behalf of Senator LaValle,

        20       on page number 12, I offer the following

        21       amendments to Calendar Number 431, Senate

        22       Print Number 4741, and ask that said bill

        23       retain its place on the Third Reading

        24       Calendar.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:







                                                          4157

         1       Amendments received, and the bill will retain

         2       it place on the Third Reading Calendar.

         3                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Mr.

         4       President, on behalf of Senator Gold, on page

         5       number 36, I offer the following amendments to

         6       Calendar Number 1054, Senate Print Number

         7       3750, and ask that said bill retain its place

         8       on the Third Reading Calendar.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        10       Amendments received, and the bill will retain

        11       its place on the Third Reading Calendar.

        12                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:

        13                      Thank you, Mr. President.

        14                      On behalf of Senator Rath,

        15       please place a sponsor's star on Calendar

        16       Number 1158.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  1158

        18       will be starred at the request of the

        19       sponsor.

        20                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  And on

        21       behalf of Senator Johnson, please place a

        22       sponsor's star on Calendar Number 1221.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        24       Calendar Number 1221 will be starred at the

        25       request of the sponsor, Senator Johnson.







                                                          4158

         1                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Thank you,

         2       Mr. President.

         3                      On behalf of Senator LaValle, I

         4       wish to call up his bill, Print Number 5935,

         5       recalled from the Assembly, which is now at

         6       the desk.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

         8       Secretary will read.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

        10       LaValle, Senate Print 5935, an act to amend

        11       the General Business Law.

        12                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Mr.

        13       President, I move to reconsider the vote by

        14       which this bill was passed.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        16       the roll on reconsideration.

        17                      (The Secretary called the roll

        18       on reconsideration.)

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 37.

        20                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Thank you,

        21       Mr. President.

        22                      I now offer the following

        23       amendments.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        25       Amendments received.







                                                          4159

         1                      SENATOR MARCELLINO:  Thank

         2       you.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

         4       Senator Present.

         5                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Mr.

         6       President, may I have a sponsor's star on

         7       Calendar Number 1226.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  There

         9       will be a sponsor's star placed on Calendar

        10       1226.

        11                      SENATOR PRESENT:  Thank you.

        12                      Secretary will read the

        13       substitutions.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  On page 7,

        15       Senator Maltese moves to discharge from the

        16       Committee on Rules Assembly Bill 10783, and

        17       substitute it for the identical Senate bill

        18       1446.

        19                      On page 14, Senator Trunzo

        20       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        21       Assembly Print 6920-A, and substitute it for

        22       the identical Senate bill 3960-A.

        23                      On page 21, Senator Skelos

        24       moves to discharge from the Committee on

        25       Rules, Assembly Print 4675-A, and substitute







                                                          4160

         1       it for the identical Senate bill 2641-A.

         2                      On page 22, Senator Trunzo

         3       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

         4       Assembly Bill 7673-A, and substitute it for

         5       the identical Senate bill 5154-A.

         6                      On page 29, Senator Farley

         7       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

         8       Assembly Bill 10420, and substitute it for the

         9       identical Senate bill 6525.

        10                      On page 35, Senator Balboni

        11       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        12       Assembly Bill 10301-A, and substitute it for

        13       the identical Senate bill 7198-A.

        14                      On page 36, Senator Leibell

        15       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        16       Assembly Bill 11012, and substitute it for the

        17       identical Senate bill 7436.

        18                      On page 46, Senator Rath moves

        19       to discharge from the Committee on Children

        20       and Families Assembly Bill 234, and substitute

        21       it for the identical Senate bill 4460.

        22                      On page 47, Senator Marchi

        23       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

        24       Assembly Bill 10105, and substitute it for the

        25       identical Senate bill 6666.







                                                          4161

         1                      On page 47, Senator Johnson

         2       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

         3       Assembly Bill 10930, and substitute it for the

         4       identical Senate bill 7427.

         5                      On page 47, Senator Stafford

         6       moves to discharge from the Committee on Rules

         7       Assembly Bill 10950-A, and substitute it for

         8       the identical Senate bill 7489-A.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        10       Substitutions ordered.

        11                      Senator Skelos.

        12                      SENATOR SKELOS:  At this time

        13       may we please adopt the Resolution Calendar.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  All

        15       those in favor of adopting the Resolution

        16       Calendar, signify by saying aye.

        17                      (Response of "Aye.")

        18                      Opposed nay.

        19                      (There was no response. )

        20                      The Resolution Calendar is

        21       adopted.

        22                      Senator Padavan.

        23                      SENATOR PADAVAN:  Mr.

        24       President, will you place a sponsor's star on

        25       Calendar Number 1156.







                                                          4162

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  A

         2       sponsor's star will be placed on Calendar

         3       Number 1156.

         4                      Senator Skelos.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         6       at this time may we please have the reading of

         7       the non-controversial calendar.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

         9       Secretary will read the non-controversial

        10       calendar.

        11                      THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number

        12       243, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 6007-B,

        13       an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in

        14       relation to exemptions.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        16       the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

        18       This act shall take effect immediately.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        20       the roll.

        21                      (The Secretary called the

        22       roll.)

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 37.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        25       bill is passed.







                                                          4163

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         2       454, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 341, an

         3       act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the

         4       monetary standard.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         6       the last section.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

         8       This act shall take effect on the first day of

         9       November.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        11       the roll.

        12                      (The Secretary called the

        13       roll.)

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 37.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        16       bill is passed.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       468, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 5294,

        19       an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

        20       the assault of bus drivers.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        22       the last section.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        24       This act shall take effect on the first day of

        25       November.







                                                          4164

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         2       the roll.

         3                      (The Secretary called the

         4       roll.)

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 37.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         7       bill is passed.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       564, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 6003-A,

        10       an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        12       the last section.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        14       This act shall take effect immediately.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        16       the roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the

        18       roll.)

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 37.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        21       bill is passed.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       631, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 6109-B,

        24       an act to authorize the village of Saranac

        25       Lake.







                                                          4165

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

         2       There's a home rule message at the desk.  Read

         3       the last section.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

         5       This act shall take effect immediately.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         7       the roll.

         8                      (The Secretary called the

         9       roll.)

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 37.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        12       bill is passed.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       707, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3467-A,

        15       an act to amend the Private Housing Finance

        16       Law.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        18       the last section.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

        20       This act shall take effect immediately.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        22       the roll.

        23                      (The Secretary called the

        24       roll.)

        25                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 37.







                                                          4166

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         2       bill is passed.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       724, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 5661-A,

         5       an act to amend the Retirement and Social

         6       Security Law.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         8       the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

        10       This act shall take effect immediately.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        12       the roll.

        13                      (The Secretary called the

        14       roll.)

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 39.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        17       bill is passed.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       813, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 6994.

        20                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

        22       aside.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        24       869, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 4719, an

        25       act to amend the Banking Law.







                                                          4167

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         2       the last section.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

         4       This act shall take effect immediately.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         6       the roll.

         7                      (The Secretary called the

         8       roll.)

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 39.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        11       bill is passed.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       918, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 7162, an

        14       act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to

        15       increasing.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        17       the last section.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        19       This act shall take effect immediately.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        21       the roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the

        23       roll.)

        24                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 39.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The







                                                          4168

         1       bill is passed.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       953, by Senator Balboni, Senate Print 7325, an

         4       act to amend the State Administrative

         5       Procedure Act.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

         7       Senator Balboni.

         8                      SENATOR BALBONI: Would you lay

         9       that bill aside for the day.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

        11       the bill aside for the day.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       1007, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print

        14       7191, an act to amend the Administrative Code

        15       of the City of New York.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        17       the last section.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

        19       This act shall take effect immediately.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        21       the roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the

        23       roll.)

        24                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 39.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The







                                                          4169

         1       bill is passed.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       1009, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1498, an

         4       act to amend the Real Property Tax Law.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         6       the last section.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

         8       This act shall take effect immediately.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        10       the roll.

        11                      (The Secretary called the

        12       roll.)

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        15       bill is passed.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        17       1032, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 7217-A,

        18       an act to amend the Volunteer Ambulance

        19       Workers' Benefit Law.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        21       the last section.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

        23       This act shall take effect on the first day of

        24       January.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call







                                                          4170

         1       the roll.

         2                      (The Secretary called the

         3       roll.)

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         6       bill is passed.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         8       1033, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 7254, an

         9       act to amend the General Municipal Law.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        11       the last section.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 10.

        13       This act shall take effect immediately.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call

        15       the roll.

        16                      (The Secretary called the

        17       roll.)

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        20       bill is passed.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       1110, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print

        23       6441-A, an act to amend the Parks, Recreation

        24       and Historic Preservation Law and the Vehicle

        25       and Traffic Law.







                                                          4171

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         2       the last section.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

         4       This act shall take effect on the first day of

         5       November.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         7       the roll.

         8                      (The Secretary called the

         9       roll.)

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        12       bill is passed.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        14       1111, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print

        15       6442, an act to amend the Parks, Recreation

        16       and Historic Preservation Law.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        18       the last section.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        20       This act shall take effect immediately.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        22       the roll.

        23                      (The Secretary called the

        24       roll.)

        25                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.







                                                          4172

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         2       bill is passed.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       1118, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 6756-A, an

         5       act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law.

         6                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

         8       the bill aside.

         9                      THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number

        10       1136, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 6862-A,

        11       an act to establish a "business trust law".

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        13       the last section.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

        15       This act shall take effect on the 90th day.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        17       the roll.

        18                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

        20       the bill aside.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        22       1140, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 588-B, an

        23       act to amend the Real Property Actions and

        24       Proceedings Law.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read







                                                          4173

         1       the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

         3       This act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         5       the roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the

         7       roll.)

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 41.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        10       bill is passed.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1196, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 7533, an

        13       act to amend the Judiciary Law, the County Law

        14       and the Correction Law.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        16       the last section.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Lay aside.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

        19       the bill aside.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        21       1201, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 419-B,

        22       an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.

        23                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay aside for

        24       the day.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay







                                                          4174

         1       the bill aside for the day.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       1202, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 1705, an

         4       act to amend the Mental Hygiene Law, in

         5       relation to prohibiting.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         7       the last section.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.

         9       This act shall take effect immediately.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        11       the roll.

        12                      (The Secretary called the

        13       roll.)

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        16       bill is passed.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       1203, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 1932,

        19       an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law

        20       and the Administrative Code of the city of New

        21       York.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        23       the last section.

        24                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

        25       This act shall take effect in 120 days.







                                                          4175

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         2       the roll.

         3                      ( The Secretary called the

         4       roll.)

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         7       bill is passed.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       1205, by Senator Lachman, Senate Print 2618-A,

        10       an act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in

        11       relation to prescribing penalties for

        12       violations.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        14       the last section.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        16       This act shall take effect immediately.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        18       the roll.

        19                      (The Secretary called the

        20       roll.)

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        23       bill is passed.

        24                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        25       1206, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print







                                                          4176

         1       2971, an act to amend the General Obligations

         2       Law.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         4       the last section.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

         6       This act shall take effect on the 30th day.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         8       the roll.

         9                      (The Secretary called the

        10       roll.)

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        13       bill is passed.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        15       1207, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3259, an

        16       act to amend the Highway Law, in relation to

        17       the temporary discontinuance.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        19       the last section.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        21       This act shall take effect immediately.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        23       the roll.

        24                      (The Secretary called the

        25       roll.)







                                                          4177

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         3       bill is passed.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         5       1208, substituted earlier today, by member of

         6       the Assembly Hoyt, Assembly Print 234, an act

         7       to amend the Social Services Law.

         8                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay aside for

         9       the day.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

        11       the bill aside for the day.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       1209, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print

        14       5137, an act to amend the Criminal Procedure

        15       Law.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        17       the last section.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        19       This act shall take effect immediately.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call

        21       the roll.

        22                      (The Secretary called the

        23       roll.)

        24                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The







                                                          4178

         1       bill is passed.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       1210, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 7556,

         4       an act to amend the Public Officers Law.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         6       the last section.

         7                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Lay the

         8       bill aside.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the

        10       bill aside.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1211, by Senator Johnson.

        13                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

        15       the bill aside.

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        17       1212, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 6380,

        18       an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law,

        19       in relation to reports.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        21       the last section.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        23       This bill shall take effect on the 60th day.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        25       the roll.







                                                          4179

         1                      (The Secretary called the

         2       roll.)

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 42.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The

         5       bill is passed.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       1213, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 6480, an

         8       act to amend the Tax Law.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        10       the last section.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        12       This act shall take effect immediately.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        14       the roll.

        15                      (The Secretary called the

        16       roll.)

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 44.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        19       bill is passed.

        20                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        21       1214, by Senator Onorato, Senate Print 6526,

        22       an act to authorize the city of New York to

        23       reconvey its interest.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        25       There's a home rule message at the desk.  Read







                                                          4180

         1       the last section.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 5.

         3       This act shall take effect immediately.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         5       the roll.

         6                      (The Secretary called the

         7       roll.)

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 44.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        10       bill is passed.

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        12       1215, by Senator Sampson, Senate Print 6637,

        13       an act to authorize the city of New York.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        15       There's a home rule message at the desk.  Read

        16       the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

        18       This act shall take effect immediately.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        20       the roll.

        21                      (The Secretary called the

        22       roll.)

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 43, nays

        24       one, Senator Kruger recorded in the negative.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The







                                                          4181

         1       bill is passed.

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         3       1216, substituted earlier today, by member of

         4       the Assembly Vann, Assembly Print 10105, an

         5       act to amend the Business Corporation Law.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         7       the last section.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 52.

         9       This act shall take effect in 30 days.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        11       the roll.

        12                      (The Secretary called the

        13       roll.)

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 45.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        16       bill is passed.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       1217, by Senator Alesi.

        19                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay aside for

        20       the day.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

        22       the bill aside for the day.

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        24       1218, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 6852,

        25       an act to amend the Public Officers Law.







                                                          4182

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         2       the last section.

         3                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Lay aside.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

         5       the bill aside.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         7       1219, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 6956, an

         8       act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law and

         9       the Insurance Law.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        11       the last section.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.

        13       This act shall take effect on the first day of

        14       September.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        16       the roll.

        17                      (The Secretary called the

        18       roll.)

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 45.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        21       bill is passed.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        23       1220, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 7023,

        24       an act to amend the Election Law, in relation

        25       to time limits to bring proceedings.







                                                          4183

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         2       the last section.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

         4       This act shall take effect immediately.

         5                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Lay aside.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Lay

         7       the bill aside.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       1223, by Senator Balboni, Senate Print 7444,

        10       an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

        11       increasing the criminal penalties for sexual

        12       performances.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        14       the last section.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 12.

        16       This act shall take effect on the first day of

        17       November.

        18                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        19       the roll.

        20                      (The Secretary called the

        21       roll.)

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 45.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        24       bill is passed.

        25                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number







                                                          4184

         1       1224, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 7469, an

         2       act to amend the Insurance Law.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         4       the last section.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

         6       This act shall take effect in 30 days.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         8       the roll.

         9                      IThe Secretary called the

        10       roll.)

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        13       bill is passed.

        14                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        15       1225, substituted earlier today, by the

        16       Assembly Committee on Rules, Assembly Print

        17       10950-A, an act to amend the State Finance

        18       Law.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        20       the last section.

        21                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        22       This act shall take effect immediately.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        24       the roll.

        25                      (The Secretary called the







                                                          4185

         1       roll.)

         2                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         4       bill is passed.

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         6       1227, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 7517,

         7       an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         9       the last section.

        10                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        11       This act shall take effect immediately.

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        13       the roll.

        14                      (The Secretary called the

        15       roll.)

        16                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        18       bill is passed.

        19                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        20       1228, by Senator Holland, Senate Print 7536,

        21       an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law,

        22       in relation to the maximum speed.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        24       the last section.

        25                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.







                                                          4186

         1       This act shall take effect immediately.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         3       the roll.

         4                      (The Secretary called the

         5       roll.)

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 47.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         8       bill is passed.

         9                      Senator Saland, that completes

        10       the reading of the non-controversial

        11       calendar.

        12                      SENATOR SALAND: Take the

        13       controversial calendar, please.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        15       Secretary will read the controversial

        16       calendar.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        18       813, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 6994, an

        19       act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to

        20       the transfer of juvenile offenders.

        21                      SENATOR PATERSON:

        22       Explanation.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        24       Senator Saland, an explanation has been

        25       requested of Calendar Number 813.







                                                          4187

         1                      SENATOR SALAND:  Thank you, Mr.

         2       President.

         3                      Mr. President, what this bill,

         4       which is being offered at the request of the

         5       Office of Children and Family Services, would

         6       do is to change the existing law which

         7       currently provides that where a juvenile who

         8       is 16 or 17 years old and within the care and

         9       custody of the Office of Children and Family

        10       Services, intentionally causes injury to -

        11       physical injury to an employee of the staff,

        12       that person currently would be entitled to a

        13       judicial hearing to determine whether that

        14       person should, in fact, be transferred to

        15       DOCS.

        16                      What this bill proposes to do

        17       is to say that shall now be accomplished

        18       administratively.  In all other respects, the

        19       bill does not in any way change the existing

        20       law.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        22       Senator Paterson.

        23                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you

        24       very much, Mr. President.  On the bill.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:







                                                          4188

         1       Senator Paterson, on the bill.

         2                      SENATOR PATERSON:  There is

         3       simply here just a disagreement in policy.

         4       The bill was actually very well explained by

         5       Senator Saland, and we thank him for that.

         6                      The -- in my opinion, the

         7       reason that we separate youthful offenders

         8       from adult offenders is really a circumstance

         9       surrounding maturity.  Now, we would impose a

        10       punishment on a youthful offender, would be

        11       one that would suit the maturity level of the

        12       individual.  The acting out or assaulting of

        13       an officer is an offense that is -- should not

        14       be pardoned.  It should be punished, but to

        15       then send the -- to transfer the youthful

        16       offender to be with adult offenders, in our

        17       opinion, is just not the right course to

        18       take.

        19                      The issue of maturity would be

        20       one where I would actually suggest that the

        21       youthful offender who is better behaved might

        22       demonstrate that they should go on and be

        23       treated as an adult and perhaps be

        24       incarcerated with adults, but actually the

        25       inability to follow rules, to me, is more







                                                          4189

         1       synonymous with a young person that's crying

         2       out for help, for further guidance, for

         3       further assistance and for punishment, but not

         4       by necessarily ever exposing them to many of

         5       the dangers that have been documented where a

         6       youthful offender is now housed with those who

         7       are older; and so we recommend that this

         8       particular bill be defeated.

         9                      While we do concur that there

        10       should be an apt punishment, we don't think it

        11       should be through a -- through a transfer to

        12       an area where we think that the anti-social

        13       behavior may be enhanced rather than

        14       curtailed.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        16       the last section.

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        18       This act shall take effect on the 120th day.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        20       the roll.

        21                      (The Secretary called the

        22       roll. )

        23                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 46, nays

        24       one, Senator Paterson recorded in the

        25       negative.







                                                          4190

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         2       bill is passed.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       1118, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 6756-A, an

         5       act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law,

         6       in relation to permitting.

         7                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:

         8       Explanation.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        10       Senator Kuhl, an explanation has been

        11       requested by Senator Dollinger of Calendar

        12       1118.

        13                      SENATOR KUHL:  Thank you, Mr.

        14       President.

        15                      This bill is rather simple in

        16       purpose.  It has a rather defined purpose.

        17       The bill is very specific and would allow

        18       raffles to be conducted by agricultural

        19       societies during weeks that county fairs are

        20       held on the county fairground.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        22       President, if the sponsor will yield to just

        23       one question.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        25       Senator Kuhl, do you yield to one question?







                                                          4191

         1                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yes.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

         3       Sponsor yields.

         4                      Senator Dollinger.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  That was my

         6       question, Mr. President.  Who is authorized to

         7       conduct these games?  Does it specify who is

         8       authorized to conduct them or -

         9                      SENATOR KUHL:  Yes.  Right now

        10       the way the law reads, Senator, the way I

        11       understand it reads anyway, is that there is a

        12       specific prohibition, if you will, for the

        13       conducting of raffles by agricultural

        14       societies during the times that they are

        15       conducting county fairs on the grounds, that

        16       the county fairs are conducted unlike the

        17       State Fair where there are raffles that are

        18       permitted, so if you went to Syracuse this

        19       summer and you would see various raffles being

        20       conducted, if you go then to the Onondaga

        21       County Fair or, in your case, the Monroe

        22       County Fair, you will see no raffles that are

        23       actually being conducted under the auspices of

        24       the law.  They are prohibited.

        25                      So what this section or what







                                                          4192

         1       this proposal attempts to do is just to allow

         2       county fairs to be put on the same parity, the

         3       same ground as the State Fair, and allow for

         4       these raffles to be conducted.

         5                      What has happened, I think, in

         6       the past is that these raffles have been

         7       conducted without the knowledge that, in fact,

         8       that this prohibition existed and what we find

         9       is that in many county fairs they may be

        10       raffling off, for instance, the prize bull or

        11       the prize heifer or whatever it happens to be,

        12       and it didn't come up until an opinion was

        13       issued by the Department of Agriculture and

        14       Markets this last year that, in fact, those

        15       are illegal.  So in many cases these fairs are

        16       totally dependent for their livelihood, if you

        17       will, or their existence on the revenue that's

        18       generated from these raffles which are very

        19       meaningful to them financially, and so this

        20       proposal was just meant to authorize that

        21       activity.

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Thank you.

        23       The explanation is satisfactory, Mr.

        24       President.

        25                      I appreciate Senator Kuhl's







                                                          4193

         1       explanation, and I understand how these have

         2       become part and parcel of making the county

         3       fairs go.

         4                      I'm going to vote against it,

         5       simply because I think it's another step down

         6       that road to eventually getting to more and

         7       more gambling in this state.  It may already

         8       be occurring in the unofficial capacity of

         9       county fairs, but it seems to me that before

        10       you know it, every event we go to somebody

        11       will be selling raffle tickets.  Somebody will

        12       be selling something, and you'll be taking a

        13       chance on everything.  This is another step

        14       down that road and, for that reason, despite

        15       the fact that it may create parity and keep

        16       our county fairs going, I'd rather not walk

        17       down that road.

        18                      I'll be voting in the negative,

        19       Mr. President.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        21       the last section.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        23       This act shall take effect immediately.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

        25       the roll.







                                                          4194

         1                      (The Secretary called the

         2       roll. )

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 47, nays

         4       one, Senator Dollinger recorded in the

         5       negative.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

         7       bill is passed.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Excuse me.

         9       Also Senator Balboni.  Ayes 46, nays two.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        11       bill is passed.

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        13       1136, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 6862-A,

        14       an act to establish a "business trust law".

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        16       Senator Skelos, an explanation has been

        17       requested.

        18                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        19       this bill will allow New York State to

        20       establish business trusts.  Business trusts

        21       function as unincorporated organizations

        22       created by trust instruments under which

        23       properties are held, managed or operated.

        24                      The business activities of the

        25       trust are conducted by a trustee for the







                                                          4195

         1       benefit of one or more beneficial owners.

         2       This will allow practitioners to create these

         3       trusts in New York State and be able to

         4       compete with Delaware and other states.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         6       the last section.

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3 -

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

         9       Senator Paterson.

        10                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

        11       President, for the most part this is a very

        12       good bill, business trusts which are really

        13       unincorporated organizations that are created

        14       by a trust instrument and will probably

        15       stimulate a lot of good activity for small

        16       businesses here in the state.

        17                      Our concern is we feel that it

        18       limits the liability of benefit owners in this

        19       particular bill, and this is something that's

        20       a general issue that we have raised in the

        21       past and is raised by a memo offered by the

        22       New York State Trial Lawyers Association.

        23                      The bill would bring the

        24       liability more in compliance with the law as

        25       it stands generally now.  It has some







                                                          4196

         1       excellent attributes to it, but being that it

         2       does not, we recommend a no vote on this

         3       bill.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

         5       the last section.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 3.

         7       This act shall take effect on the 90th day.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Call

         9       the roll.

        10                      (The Secretary called the

        11       roll. )

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded

        13       in the negative on Calendar Number 1136 are

        14       Senators Connor, Kruger, Markowitz, Paterson

        15       and Smith.  Ayes 45, nays 5.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  The

        17       bill is passed.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       1196, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 7533, an

        20       act to amend the Judiciary Law, the County Law

        21       and the Correction Law.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Read

        23       the last section.

        24                      SENATOR PATERSON:

        25       Explanation.







                                                          4197

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Oh.

         2       O.K. Senator Volker, an explanation has been

         3       requested of Calendar 1196, by Senator

         4       Paterson.

         5                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Since there

         6       are three hostile amendments to this, I didn't

         7       think they were going to let it go.

         8                      This is a bill -- it's a

         9       Governor's program bill that involves the

        10       issue of compensation in death penalty cases

        11       and let me just say very quickly -

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        13       Senator Volker, excuse me a minute.  Can we

        14       have some order in the chamber, so Senator

        15       Volker can be heard, please.  Members take

        16       their conversations outside, staff take your

        17       seats.

        18                      Senator Volker.

        19                      SENATOR VOLKER:  When we passed

        20       the death penalty statute some years ago, we

        21       knew that there was the possibility that the

        22       counsel fees that were provided in that bill

        23       could become a problem.  There were many of us

        24       who said we should try desperately to allow as

        25       much latitude as possible in the defense of







                                                          4198

         1       people who are subject to the death penalty.

         2       We had hoped, frankly, that the Court of

         3       Appeals would be able to -- and because that's

         4       basically the way the system was set up, that

         5       the Court of Appeals would be able to set some

         6       sort of reasonable limitations on attorney

         7       fees, and that we would ultimately have what

         8       we consider a rational process.

         9                      The reason it's important is

        10       that no matter what the anti-death penalty

        11       people say, the argument nationwide is that

        12       the death penalty is more expensive than

        13       imprisonment.  The only way that argument

        14       makes any sense at all is in legal fees, and

        15       by that I mean in defense fees.  It doesn't

        16       make any sense from the standpoint of

        17       prosecution.  It only makes sense from the

        18       standpoint of the defense fees.

        19                      There's no question that in

        20       certain states and in certain cases, that

        21       attorneys have run up the bills dramatically,

        22       and enormous amounts of money have been

        23       spent.  I hesitate to tell you, but some of

        24       those firms that are involved in that just

        25       happen to have been from New York City, even







                                                          4199

         1       though these cases were from somewhat remote

         2       places.  So what most states have done is to

         3       put some rather dramatic limitations on

         4       attorneys' fees, and I have them here by the

         5       way.  New York's clearly the most liberal in

         6       the United States of America.  We pay out the

         7       largest attorney fees for capital cases in the

         8       country.

         9                      This bill, what it basically

        10       does is go to the federal standards.  What we

        11       are doing is going to the federal standards

        12       with some latitude above the federal

        13       standards, which, still even with this bill,

        14       the attorney fees for capital attorneys will

        15       remain the highest in the country, and I won't

        16       recite to you some of the attorneys' fees in

        17       some of the other states, because admittedly

        18       they're somewhat laughable, but there are

        19       comparable states with attorney fees still

        20       considerably below ours.

        21                      The problem really has arisen

        22       in practice and, in practice -- and some of

        23       these attorneys I know very well -- one

        24       attorney, for instance, has vouchered for

        25       $450,000 in a case that never even came close







                                                          4200

         1       to going to trial.  He pled the case out to

         2       life without parole.  By the way, there are 31

         3       people who have pled to life without parole,

         4       another 10 who have been sentenced to life

         5       without parole.  If anybody doesn't think the

         6       death penalty is working, then you just have

         7       to look at what has been happening, and that

         8       is those cases -- by the way, someone said,

         9       well, if you had life without parole it could

        10       happen.  Nonsense, without the death penalty

        11       none of those things would ever have

        12       happened.  The savings to the system in those

        13       cases is enormous.

        14                      So what this bill does, it

        15       establishes reasonable hourly compensation for

        16       lead counsel, associate counsel, assistant

        17       counsel, and so on. It mandates a cap on

        18       expenditures for these witnesses in capital

        19       cases and keeping in mind, by the way, that

        20       attorneys, in special cases the court can do

        21       other things besides this if it's absolutely

        22       necessary, but only in the most special cases

        23       because that basically is the way the system

        24       works.

        25                      The attorney compensation rates







                                                          4201

         1       basically parallel in this bill, basically

         2       parallel the federal rates and let me say

         3       again will still allow New York to have the

         4       highest, in a sense the highest in the

         5       nation.  No one can have, under this system at

         6       this point, higher compensation rates as long

         7       as they stay within the federal guidelines.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

         9       Senator Stachowski.

        10                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Mr.

        11       President, I believe I have an amendment at

        12       the desk.

        13                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:  Yes,

        14       you do, Senator.

        15                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Waive the

        16       reading, and I'll just offer some information.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

        18       Reading of the amendment will be waived and

        19       you're recognized for the purpose of

        20       explaining your amendment.

        21                      SENATOR STACHOWSKI:  Mr.

        22       President, on Senator Volker's bill lowering

        23       attorney fees in death penalty cases, I've

        24       been addressing in perpetuity the matter of

        25       the attorneys' fees that we're paying in IDA







                                                          4202

         1       related matters and that's what my amendment

         2       does; it will bring the same kind of standards

         3       that Senator Volker's bill brings to death

         4       penalty attorneys, mine would bring to

         5       attorneys in IDA matters.

         6                      I think that it's a situation

         7       where the chosen lawyers are doing very, very

         8       well for themselves at the expense of

         9       businesses that maybe wouldn't have to pay

        10       quite so much in legal fees if it wasn't for

        11       this kind of business, and also the fact, how

        12       I got on this IDA matter was I found out in

        13       Erie County, and I imagine it's the same

        14       throughout the state, that even when you don't

        15       get the loan, you got to pay the attorneys

        16       that represent the IDA, and so I found that

        17       that was a terrible situation, I thought, and

        18       that I think this is something where we should

        19       again limit the expenditures to some of these

        20       lawyers and that I, therefore, move the

        21       amendment.

        22                      THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

        23       Dollinger.

        24                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  If I could

        25       be heard on the amendment briefly.







                                                          4203

         1                      Senator Stachowski makes a very

         2       good point.  The types of legal deals that are

         3       done with IDAs are "cookie cutter" deals.

         4       They're cut right out of the same cloth.  The

         5       real worker in most IDA deals is your Xerox

         6       machine and your word processor.  You fill in

         7       the blank, you spit out the document, the loan

         8       documents are very similar every time you deal

         9       with it.  Sure, there are nuances and I can

        10       understand why you pay a lawyer to pick up

        11       nuances in particular transactions, whether

        12       it's the financing of the transaction or the

        13       real property limitations in the transaction.

        14       For those nuances we should pay something, but

        15       frankly, the cut, the type of thing that

        16       happens when an IDA deal goes down, these are

        17       "cookie cutter" deals that lawyers do with

        18       word processors and Xerox machines.  They

        19       don't involve anywheres near the sophisticated

        20       legal skills that are involved in defending a

        21       capital case under a new death penalty

        22       statute.

        23                      It seems to me that it would be

        24       perfectly prudent to have that standard when

        25       we protect people's lives, what we pay for







                                                          4204

         1       legal fees, also apply when we're doing tax

         2       free financing to allow businesses to grow.

         3       What's reasonable and prudent for one should

         4       be reasonable and prudent for all.

         5                      THE PRESIDENT:  On the

         6       amendment, all those in favor please signify

         7       by saying aye.

         8                      (Response of "Aye.")

         9                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Party vote

        10       in the affirmative.

        11                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Party vote in

        12       the negative.

        13                      THE PRESIDENT:  The amendment

        14        -- Secretary will call the roll.

        15                      (The Secretary called the

        16       roll. )

        17                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 19, nays

        18       33, party vote.

        19                      THE PRESIDENT:  The amendment

        20       is defeated.

        21                      Senator Dollinger.

        22                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  I believe

        23       there's another amendment at the desk.  I'd

        24       ask that the reading of it be waived and that

        25       I be heard on the amendment.







                                                          4205

         1                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Madam

         2       President, I'm going to ask Senator Dollinger

         3       if he would let me have the floor just for a

         4       second.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Yes, I

         6       yield.

         7                      THE PRESIDENT:  Yes, Senator

         8       Stafford.

         9                      SENATOR STAFFORD:  Madam

        10       President, we have a very strict rule in this

        11       house that we no longer recognize people in

        12       the gallery, but on your right there's a group

        13       of grade school students who performed in the

        14       park today George M. Cohan's Yankee Doodle,

        15       It's A Grand Old Flag, a number of other

        16       tremendous -- it was just great.  Their

        17       parents, faculty, administration, some of

        18       them, friends, are all with them today but

        19       since we don't recognize people any more, I

        20       wouldn't want you to do that, but I wanted to

        21       mention, and Senator Dollinger was very nice

        22       to let me say it, and I will not violate the

        23       rules any more than this other than to say

        24       they did a tremendous job out in the park and

        25       I know you'd be very pleased to know that, so







                                                          4206

         1       I just wanted to let you know.

         2                      THE PRESIDENT:  I agree,

         3       Senator Stafford, and if we were going to

         4       recognize them, we certainly would.

         5                      (Applause)

         6                      THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

         7       Dollinger.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Madam

         9       President, will the sponsor yield to a couple

        10       questions before we do the amendment?

        11                      THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

        12       Volker.

        13                      SENATOR VOLKER:  I don't -

        14       well, except for one thing.  I don't think the

        15       amendment has been read.  You got to at least

        16       read the title or something.

        17                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  That's

        18       fine, Madam President.  If the sponsor will

        19       yield even though the amendment is on the

        20       floor.

        21                      SENATOR VOLKER:  O.K. Sure.

        22                      THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

        23       Dollinger.

        24                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Has the

        25       amendment been read, Madam President.







                                                          4207

         1                      THE PRESIDENT: I don't -- it

         2       hasn't, Senator.

         3                      SENATOR VOLKER: I don't think

         4       so.  That's my point.

         5                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  I'd ask the

         6       amendment be read.  Actually, I'd ask the

         7       reading be waived, and I be recognized to

         8       speak on it.

         9                      THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

        10       Dollinger.

        11                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Through

        12       you, Madam President, this amendment deals

        13       with the Long Island Power Authority.  How do

        14       we justify paying the attorneys involved in

        15       the LIPA deal 3- or $400 an hour and the

        16       people involved in a capital case less than

        17       half of that?

        18                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Senator, first

        19       of all, let me say there's a grave question

        20       here, and I'm not raising this objection, as

        21       to the germaneness of this amendment because

        22       I'm not sure that the LIPA attorneys have

        23       anything to do with capital defending

        24       attorneys.  You may make that argument, but I

        25       assure you in looking at some of the numbers







                                                          4208

         1       of the capital defense attorneys, they're

         2       going to do a lot better than even the LIPA

         3       attorneys are going to do, but that's beside

         4       the point.

         5                      I really don't know about the

         6       issue of the LIPA attorneys.  I used to be in

         7       energy, as you know, in a prior life, but I

         8       have not been involved in that for a long

         9       time, so I really can't judge on that, but I

        10       can tell you that whatever the hourly rate is,

        11       the LIPA attorneys, I have a feeling that most

        12       of them would not do as well as many of these

        13       defense attorneys in capital cases are doing

        14       representing defendants in the present

        15       situation.

        16                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Madam

        17       President, I appreciate Senator Volker's

        18       candid response to my question.  I'll just

        19       address the amendment briefly, Senator.

        20                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Sure.

        21                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  And then

        22       we'll put it to a vote.  What this amendment

        23       seeks to do is take the limitations that

        24       Senator Volker's bill would put on attorneys'

        25       fees in capital cases, the hourly rate in a







                                                          4209

         1       capital case, a complex case involving a new

         2       statute, involving someone's life, and saying

         3       to the people of this state that the fees that

         4       are taken by bond merchants, bond merchants

         5       who sell large securities and debts to cover,

         6       for example, the Long Island Power Authority

         7       when it takes over LILCO, that we'll simply

         8       say in this state that we value those fees the

         9       same way we value the fees that we pay to

        10       people who defend people's lives, that we

        11       create an equality, a parity between what the

        12       government would pay in both of those

        13       instances, and it seems to me it's reasonable

        14       and prudent if we're going to restrict the

        15       fees that are charged in capital cases, why

        16       shouldn't we put the same limitation on those

        17       who take money out of the public trough when

        18       they are taking monies through the Long Island

        19       Power Authority refinancing?

        20                      My understanding is that the

        21       rates that were charged in that refinancing

        22       varied between 300 and $400 a hour, that the

        23       total amount paid in some cases to law firms

        24       was 30- and $40 million, not as Senator Volker

        25       said 400,000 but instead 30- or $40 million







                                                          4210

         1       and that the principle of where we make a

         2       judgment about the value of attorneys'

         3       services, it seems to me we would put the

         4       value on those who defend someone's life

         5       rather than someone who simply sells

         6       securities or participates in a transaction.

         7                      The biggest bond transaction, I

         8       believe, in the history of the United States

         9       but nonetheless one that was like most other

        10       bond transactions, one that I will guarantee

        11       documents were printed by the ton off word

        12       processors.  Names were substituted, blanks

        13       were filled in.  That isn't what happens in a

        14       death penalty case, so it seems to me that if

        15       we make a judgment about the value of life as

        16       a commodity, if we use it in its basest terms,

        17       we would simply say that legal fees to protect

        18       someone's life ought to be paid at a

        19       reasonable and prudent market rate and

        20       whatever that rate is, if as Senator Volker

        21       says that caps out at $175 an hour, why

        22       wouldn't we do the same thing for LILCO?

        23                      Madam President, I would move

        24       this amendment.  It would take the same

        25       reasonable standards that Senator Volker







                                                          4211

         1       properly articulates and says we ought to put

         2       some limitation on the hourly rate.  Let's put

         3       it on all those who are at the public trough

         4       especially those who are doing bond financing

         5       and making enormous fees, and I would add

         6       these are not lawyers in capital cases who pay

         7       to play.  These are not lawyers who come back

         8       to the political process and put money back in

         9       the political process for the purpose of doing

        10       these bond deals in the future.  No, these are

        11       people who believe strongly in the principle

        12       of protecting someone's life from the

        13       government, from the possibility of government

        14       overstepping itself and, under those

        15       circumstances, it seems to me what's good for

        16       the gander is good for the goose.  What's good

        17       for defense counsel in cases involving one's

        18       life ought to be good for the refinancing of

        19       our -- by the state of New York and by

        20       authorities created by the state of New York

        21       of the debts of the Long Island Power

        22       Authority.

        23                      I'd move the amendment, Madam

        24       President.

        25                      THE PRESIDENT:  Thank you,







                                                          4212

         1       Senator Dollinger.

         2                      On the amendment, all those in

         3       favor please signify by saying aye.

         4                      (Response of "Aye.")

         5                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Party vote

         6       in the affirmative.

         7                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Party vote.

         8                      THE PRESIDENT:  Those opposed

         9       nay.  Call the roll.

        10                      (The Secretary called the

        11       roll. )

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 19, nays

        13       33, party vote.

        14                      THE PRESIDENT:  The amendment

        15       is defeated.

        16                      Senator Montgomery.

        17                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Yes.

        18       Thank you, Madam President.  I would like to

        19       ask a clarification of the sponsor, Senator

        20       Volker, if he would yield.

        21                      THE PRESIDENT:  Senator Volker,

        22       would you please yield?

        23                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes.

        24                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Senator

        25       Volker, you have proposed in this legislation,







                                                          4213

         1       I believe, a cap -

         2                      SENATOR VOLKER:  M-m h-m-m.

         3                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  -- of

         4       $15,000 per case.  Is that correct? And how

         5       does that compare to what would be a cap

         6       considered now? Is there currently a cap?

         7                      THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

         8       Volker.

         9                      SENATOR VOLKER:  The 15,000 per

        10       case is on experts.  Most states don't -- many

        11       states don't even allow that at all.  This is

        12       not -- by the way, this is not a cap.  By the

        13       way, what this bill according to estimation,

        14       this will reduce the total cash allocation for

        15       capital attorneys from 13,900,000 to

        16       11,700,000 in the -- in the following year, so

        17       we're talking some extremely big dollars.

        18       That cap is on expert witness testimony.  It's

        19       not in -- in most cases.  There have been a

        20       couple of exceptional cases where there has

        21       been some real "globbing" onto experts, it

        22       appears, in virtually every case that will not

        23       have any impact.

        24                      This has nothing to do with

        25       attorneys.  This has to do with people other







                                                          4214

         1       than attorneys.  That's what that 15,000 is.

         2                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  All

         3       right.  If Senator Volker would continue to

         4       yield.

         5                      THE PRESIDENT:  Senator

         6       Volker.

         7                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  So the

         8       $15,000 cap, as I understand it from the memo

         9       here and the bill, is a cap per case on all

        10       fees and expenses, other necessary services.

        11       Is that -- so everything other than the -- the

        12       attorney fees specifically, but every -- for

        13       everything else involved in a capital defense

        14       case has a $15,000 cap, all other activities

        15       related to the defense of that case.

        16                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Essentially

        17       that is not -- in all honesty, it's most of

        18       the -- there has not been a capital case yet

        19       that, and of course, you remember that we are

        20        -- we've only had one case that has actually

        21       gone to the jury.  There has not been a

        22       capital case that has reached that 15,000 yet,

        23       but the problem is that at the rate that some

        24       attorneys in cases that have never got to

        25       trial have been -- have been vouchering, some







                                                          4215

         1       cases would get much, much higher than that,

         2       and most of that material does not appear to

         3       have anything really connected with -- with

         4       the defense of some of these people.  If it

         5       did, it would be a different story, but what

         6       that does is try to limit the use of some of

         7       the things that have been happening that

         8       appear to be just almost make-work kinds of

         9       areas.

        10                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Mr. -

        11       Madam President.  Mr. President.  You changed

        12       while I looked down at my notes.

        13                      Mr. President.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       We are quick up here.

        16                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yeah, have to

        17       keep your eyes open.

        18                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  If Senator

        19       Volker would continue to yield.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       Senator continues to yield.

        22                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Senator,

        23       you cap -- you have a $15,000 cap, and a $50

        24       per hour hourly rate for investigators, and

        25       you say that we have not -- we have not yet







                                                          4216

         1       experienced a capital case so that we really

         2       don't have in hand based on experience what -

         3       what would be a reasonable limit to set.  In

         4       other words, we haven't really tried a case,

         5       have we, since -

         6                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Yes, we have.

         7       No, we've had one case; we have three others.

         8       There's going to be a bunch of capital cases

         9       that are going to go to trial this year.  No,

        10       what I was pointing out is that we are -- what

        11       we are experiencing already is that there are

        12       some vouchered expenses in a number of these

        13       cases.

        14                      It was just pointed out to me

        15       that some of the expenses, for instance, have

        16       been for messengers and it appears as if let's

        17       just say that there's some questionable

        18       vouchering and what we're trying to do here is

        19        -- and, by the way, this still will be the

        20       highest in the country essentially.

        21                      What we're trying to do is set

        22       some sort of limitations on the way in which

        23       these cases are handled because it does not

        24       appear, in all honesty, that the Court of

        25       Appeals is inclined to do that.







                                                          4217

         1                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Mr.

         2       President, if Senator Volker would continue to

         3       yield.

         4                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Sure.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       Senator continues to yield.

         7                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  You're -

         8       besides the cap you have reduced substantial

         9       ly, it seems to me, the hourly compensation

        10       for attorneys from a range of, as -- according

        11       to current law, 175 an hour to -- 175 an hour

        12       for lead counsel and 150 an hour for associate

        13       counsel.  You've reduced that to a range of

        14       one -- of 75 to 100.

        15                      SENATOR VOLKER:  125.

        16                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  One -

        17                      SENATOR VOLKER:  125 is the

        18       limit for the lead counsel.

        19                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  75 to 100

        20       for out of court.

        21                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Right.

        22                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  And 100 to

        23       125 for in-court services for lead counsel.

        24                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Right.

        25                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  50 to 75







                                                          4218

         1       for out of court and 75 to 100 for in-court

         2       services for associate counsel.

         3                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Right.

         4                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  40 an hour

         5       for assistant counsel.

         6                      SENATOR VOLKER:  M-m h-m-m.

         7                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  And 25 an

         8       hour for paralegals.

         9                      SENATOR VOLKER:  M-m h-m-m.

        10                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  And how

        11       does that compare to the current law? Does

        12       that -- is that a substantial reduction, I

        13       should ask?

        14                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Not a -- not

        15       as -- as I told you, the total amount we'd be

        16       saving here in the first year is a limit over

        17       a million dollars and let's keep in mind that

        18       with these changes, we will still remain

        19       paying the top amount of any state in the

        20       union.  We will basically be at the federal -

        21       the federal level as far as death penalty

        22       files are concerned.

        23                      The big difference, by the way,

        24       is that we will be limiting the -- the fees on

        25       assistant counsel, if I'm not mistaken,







                                                          4219

         1       because what's been happening is that many of

         2       these counsels have been putting on two and

         3       three people, to so-called assist in these

         4       cases, and there's some question as to whether

         5       these assistant counsels are -- are really

         6       doing the work.

         7                      I think the thing about it is,

         8       I'll be very honest about it with you -- I

         9       think what's happened here and what's really

        10       stirred up a bee's nest here is that it does

        11       appear -- it definitely does appear and,

        12       Senator Dollinger, you said that some people

        13       do boilerplate stuff that they don't do in

        14       death penalty cases.  Sorry, they are.

        15       They're using boilerplate question appeals

        16       stuff, and they're doing a lot of the things

        17       that are pretty obvious that it's almost an

        18       attempt to do make work stuff.

        19                      Now, we understand that, I

        20       guess, in a sense that when you're doing a

        21       case in a sense and you're trying to do

        22       several cases at once you send in certain

        23       papers and you duplicate them.  The problem is

        24       that there are assistant counsels who are

        25       making a great deal of money who appear to be







                                                          4220

         1       more messenger boys than anything else as far

         2       as dealing with this.

         3                      Now, in addition to that, I'll

         4       have to be honest with you there was a meeting

         5       of some of the capital counsels here recently

         6       and apparently they don't think that we know

         7       what goes on at some of these meetings, and it

         8       was suggested at the meeting that they attempt

         9       to submit as many vouchers as possible and put

        10       in as much money as possible because this is

        11       one of the ways that you fight the death

        12       penalty.  You raise the ante.  You show that

        13       and it was made at a meeting, it was a semi

        14       public meeting.

        15                      Frankly, they were a little

        16       foolish, but in all honesty keep in mind here

        17       that we are not saying we should pay

        18       unreasonable fees to attorneys.  I'd be the

        19       last one to do that.  In fact, when we did the

        20       forfeiture, I was one of the people along with

        21       Sheldon Silver, and I some years ago trailed

        22       around the state looking at forfeiture issues

        23       and one of the issues was that we were being

        24       asked not to allow attorneys to get attorney

        25       fees from the forfeiture property, so to







                                                          4221

         1       speak, because some attorneys admittedly were

         2       using that as a ruse to get the money out of

         3       it, but what we -- when we worked it out, I

         4       said we still have to realize that there has

         5       to be a way to make sure that attorneys get a

         6       fair return.

         7                      So what we said, we would not

         8       pay on attorney fees as the federal

         9       government, by the way, in some cases has done

        10       but we wanted to make sure, and we did it in

        11       our language that it would allow reasonable

        12       attorney fees for attorneys even though it

        13       could be argued that the property that was

        14       being taken was -- stolen property to make

        15       sure that attorneys were allowed a fair

        16       return.

        17                      What we're trying to do here is

        18       make sure that attorneys get a fair return and

        19       that people get properly represented because

        20       capital people are having no trouble finding

        21       people to represent them, I can tell you that,

        22       and they shouldn't, but the point is that we

        23       don't want to allow this to become sort of a

        24       grab bag of -- of money that can just take out

        25       of the state -- the state coffers because







                                                          4222

         1       that's not the way it should be.

         2                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  All

         3       right.  One last question of clarification,

         4       Senator Volker, Mr. President, if the Senator

         5       would continue to yield.

         6                      If you put in your legislation

         7       language which essentially directs the -

         8       which lawyers are eligible to try these cases,

         9       and the -- the court would be required to

        10       appoint in the following order the capital

        11       defender office, or a counsel whose name

        12       appears on a roster provided by the capital

        13       defender office, a legal aid society or other

        14       not-for-profit organization that also has some

        15       agreement with the capital defender office or

        16       an attorney whose name appears on a roster

        17       established by the screening panel in each

        18       judicial district.

        19                      My question to you is how these

        20        -- how these names become part of a roster

        21       and what are likely -- what lawyers are likely

        22       to be part of the capital defender office or

        23       what is the level of experience of lawyers

        24       that are likely to be part of the legal aid

        25       society or any other not-for-profit







                                                          4223

         1       organization that would have an agreement.

         2                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Well, first of

         3       all, the reason for this provision has to do

         4       with the fact that there's some confusion as

         5       to who represents capital defendants.  That

         6       is, in some cases, there are multiple lawyers

         7       from those categories that are listed there,

         8       who represent the people.  In other words,

         9       instead of one lawyer being a lead lawyer, you

        10       have several lawyers being the lead lawyer and

        11       being paid the top fees together, so what that

        12       is attempting to do is to set a criteria base

        13       for who will represent these people.  The list

        14       is already established.  The list is under

        15       rules that we have established by legislation

        16       and that the Court of Appeals has

        17       established.  We're not changing really any of

        18       that.  In other words, we're not changing the

        19       criteria for people.  There are certain

        20       criteria for people who -- certain experience

        21       for people who represent these people.  We put

        22       some of that in the law.  I remember very well

        23       that we -- my counsel, then counsel researched

        24       the rest of the country to find out what they

        25       were doing, plus the Court of Appeals also had







                                                          4224

         1       some rules that they promulgated, so this is

         2       not changing that.

         3                      All it's doing is setting a

         4       list of people who you choose from so that

         5       there's no question and no confusion as to

         6       whether multiple people, as now seems to be

         7       the confusion, in other words you got a

         8       capital defender here and you also may have

         9       another assigned counsel in the same county

        10       who, in effect, are getting multiple fees for

        11       the same defendant and we're saying if you're

        12       a lead counsel, then that's the capital

        13       counsel fine, if the lead counsel is the next

        14       one in line that's fine too, but all of these

        15       people have to have certain criteria and

        16       certain experience which is already in the law

        17       and in the promulgated rules before they can

        18       represent people.  We're not changing that.

        19                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  O.K. Thank

        20       you.

        21                      Mr. President, on the bill.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Senator Montgomery, on the bill.

        24                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  I am -

        25       obviously, I am against the death penalty and







                                                          4225

         1       always and each and every time that it has

         2       come before us I certainly have voted no, but

         3       now that the death penalty is law in the state

         4       of New York, I think that in the least we

         5       should have as high a standard as we possibly

         6       can for the defense of death penalty cases,

         7       and what is being proposed here, it seems to

         8       me, is that there is a significant reduction

         9       in the -- the fees that will be paid to

        10       attorneys who would be appointed to represent

        11       defendants who have been sentenced to death;

        12       and not only that, but Senator Volker has

        13       established a $15,000 cap.

        14                      The Senator has repeatedly

        15       referred to what other states are doing and

        16       what other states are spending and I would

        17       like to remind him that I should imagine that

        18       there is very little comparison between what

        19       lawyers in New York State and particularly New

        20       York City earn in terms of fees and other

        21       states, most other states in the country, and

        22       particularly those states where there is a

        23       death penalty in place.

        24                      So that is really not a fair

        25       comparison, and certainly we do not want to







                                                          4226

         1       undermine our -- our ability to provide the

         2       best possible legal defense even for capital

         3       cases, because we are indeed talking about the

         4       lives of people, and I want to remind Senator

         5       Volker that just an hour away from him and in

         6       the city of Rochester I believe, we have just

         7       released a woman who spent, I believe, 25

         8       years in -- in Bedford Hills for a crime that

         9       she did not commit, and that goes on time and

        10       time again.

        11                      Now, it was not a capital case,

        12       but the only thing that I want to point out is

        13       that we do make mistakes and some of those

        14       mistakes are very, very major.  It's -- it

        15       seems to be coming to our attention on a daily

        16       basis that some person or other has spent long

        17       periods of time incarcerated, including time

        18       on death row, when they were actually in fact

        19       found innocent and it takes many years very

        20       often and many, many hours of legal work,

        21       including investigations, and what have you.

        22                      So I think it is a big mistake

        23       for us to go down this road in the -- under

        24       the guise of saving money.  We do not want to

        25       have our state, I don't think, I hope, engage







                                                          4227

         1       in this cutting corners and end up with having

         2       made some gross error in terms of taking a

         3       person's life who was, in fact, not guilty,

         4       simply because we didn't have the money.  We

         5       didn't -- we -- we did not want to spend the

         6       necessary money to give that person a good

         7       defense and pay the costs for that.

         8                      So this is a bad -- a bad bill

         9       in that certainly there are other ways to save

        10       money, and I think some of my colleagues have

        11       pointed out those other ways, but even if

        12       we're not saving money, I think that because

        13       we could possibly save an innocent life at

        14       some point in time, we should not be at this

        15       early stage, before we even know what it's

        16       going to cost, how much it's going to cost and

        17       what kinds of safeguards we need to put in in

        18       terms of expenses, we should not be already

        19       putting a cap on what we're going to spend on

        20       capital cases.

        21                      It's far too important, Senator

        22       Volker, and so I'm going to vote no on this

        23       legislation.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Senator Volker.







                                                          4228

         1                      SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah, I'll just

         2       respond quickly, and I would only caution you,

         3       Senator Montgomery.  That woman was not found

         4       innocent.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       Excuse me, Senator, please.  (Gaveling) thank

         7       you, Senator.

         8                      SENATOR VOLKER:  The story of

         9       that case is that she spent 25 years in jail

        10       for a crime she was convicted of, I believe

        11       twice.  What happened was that a judge looked

        12       at -- which is incredible, in my opinion -

        13       looked at testimony back at the trial and said

        14       that there was some evidence that the D.A. did

        15       not pursue or whatever in the case and,

        16       therefore, he reversed the decision based on

        17       the fact that there may have been some

        18       evidence that wasn't presented in the case,

        19       something of that nature.  The D.A. said,

        20       however, she spent 25 years in jail; for me to

        21       retry this case, it would be virtually

        22       impossible for me to retry this case after 25

        23       years.  There's nobody who says she was

        24       necessarily innocent of the crime.  It's just

        25       that what happened is that the judge







                                                          4229

         1       apparently, after all this time, finally said

         2       as she's finishing her sentence, in effect,

         3       because 25 years was the maximum she could

         4       serve in effect, that -- that he was, in

         5       effect, releasing her which meant that the

         6       district attorney really would have been

         7       foolish, I think, to prosecute the case.  I

         8       just wanted to point that out.  "I'm not going

         9       to argue in another trial," but it was not

        10       necessarily, she was not ever found innocent

        11       is my point.

        12                      Second point I want to make is,

        13       in the years that I fought for the death

        14       penalty, and you can -- you can make all the

        15        -- and I understand there are people that

        16       oppose the death penalty and I respect that,

        17       very much so.  There's a reporter recently who

        18       made some comment about the fact that somehow

        19       this house played games with the death penalty

        20       over the years and that really, we didn't

        21       really want to enact the death penalty.  I

        22       have news for everyone.  That didn't happen

        23       and that was the kind of nonsense that

        24       unfortunately some beltway reporters here in

        25       this Capitol have gotten over the years







                                                          4230

         1       because they don't like the political process;

         2       but we fought here for many, many, many years

         3       on the issue of the death penalty and I worked

         4       very hard.  I happen to believe that the

         5       present plunge in the murder rate has a great

         6       deal to do with the death penalty being

         7       restored and with definite and firm sentences

         8       because we're locking up serious offenders

         9       more than we ever did before, and that has a

        10       major impact, plus the collapse of the drug

        11       culture which the media hasn't figured it out

        12       yet, but it is beginning to collapse.

        13                      Having said that, let me tell

        14       you that in looking at the death penalty

        15       counsel fees across the country, and I have

        16       them all, I must tell you I think some states

        17       are absolutely foolish.  I think it's

        18       ridiculous.  There is no way that, as a

        19       responsible legislator, as a responsible

        20       person, I would want the kind of fees that

        21       many of these states pay to capital defenders,

        22       but I wanted you to know that it seems to me

        23       that we are maintaining our responsibility by

        24       paying still the highest under this bill.  If

        25       this were to become law, we would still be as







                                                          4231

         1       high as any, in fact higher than any state in

         2       the country.  I think that's responsible.  I

         3       think we are fulfilling our responsibility.

         4       Otherwise, I would not do this because more

         5       cases are thrown out by the Supreme Court of

         6       the United States in capital cases because of

         7       bad representation, some of it just as I think

         8       the justices look at the fees that these

         9       people get paid and say, you know, well, maybe

        10       that's never going to happen in New York,

        11       because we will, even under this bill, still

        12       pay the highest fees for capital defenders in

        13       the country.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Senator Abate.

        16                      SENATOR ABATE:  Yes, Mr.

        17       President.  Before you is a third amendment,

        18       Senate Number 7533.  I waive the reading of

        19       that amendment.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       Reading is waived and the amendment is

        22       available.  You may speak on the amendment.

        23                      SENATOR ABATE:  Yes, this

        24       amendment applies the same kind of caps and

        25       limits not just on capital cases, but also all







                                                          4232

         1       those cases that are contracted out by the

         2       Governor as well as the Attorney General.  If

         3       we are so concerned in this body about saving

         4       dollars and we're concerned that we're paying

         5       the highest legal fees in the country for

         6       capital cases, let's ask ourselves, aren't we

         7       paying the highest fees in the country for

         8       non-capital and civil cases?  So why aren't we

         9       applying the same standard when the Governor

        10       and the Attorney General say they can't do the

        11       work within their own house, that the Attorney

        12       General makes the decision they don't have the

        13       expertise or the ability to defend the state's

        14       interests, that they have to spend money

        15       elsewhere?

        16                      Well, look at the money we are

        17       spending, tens of millions of dollars when we

        18       contract out these cases.  The same standard

        19       should apply that we are paying the highest

        20       amount in attorneys' fees when we hire these

        21       law firms.  We are paying them, in fact, 300,

        22       400, $500 an hour.

        23                      So what I'm suggesting if we

        24       are truly concerned about saving dollars,

        25       let's pass this amendment.  This amendment







                                                          4233

         1       would say, we will cap fees, we'll cap the

         2       amount of money we can pay in these cases but

         3       how can we do it only for capital cases and

         4       not for civil cases? It doesn't make sense.

         5       It's penny wise and pound foolish.

         6                      Now, are we saying to

         7       ourselves, when the Attorney General contracts

         8       out to defend himself on personnel cases or in

         9       the tobacco litigation, when the Attorney

        10       General hired out six law firms or when the

        11       Governor needed to litigate whether he had the

        12       power to supersede the district attorney in

        13       the Bronx, are these cases more important than

        14       defending the life of an individual and that

        15       we can pay hundreds of dollars per hour for

        16       those cases but limits the amount of money we

        17       pay in capital cases? I think not.

        18                      If we're going to be consist

        19       ent we should vote for this bill and it's

        20       particularly important that we not reduce the

        21       amount of monies we pay in capital cases.

        22       Speak to lawyers, and I've spoken to many very

        23       good lawyers.  They do not want to do these

        24       cases.  They're complex, it takes everything

        25       they have, emotionally, professionally, they







                                                          4234

         1       have to put aside all their other work and

         2       devote almost full time to the defense of

         3       these cases.

         4                      We have an adversarial system.

         5       That system is based that we want the most

         6       resourced, the highest professional, the most

         7       visual in prosecutors to protect the public's

         8       interest, that in a good adversarial system we

         9       also want defense attorneys that are the

        10       highest quality, people who want to defend

        11       indigent defendants, particularly in the most

        12       difficult of cases, capital cases.

        13                      So if we're going to be

        14       consistent, if we're truly concerned with

        15       saving taxpayer dollars, I ask everyone in

        16       this chamber to vote for this amendment.

        17       What's good for the goose should be good for

        18       the gander.  Let's apply these standards to

        19       the Governor and the Attorney General.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       On the amendment, all those in favor signify

        22       by saying aye.

        23                      (Response of "Aye.")

        24                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Party vote

        25       in the affirmative.







                                                          4235

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Party vote called for.  Read the results,

         3       please.  Call the roll.  I'm sorry.

         4                      (The Secretary called the

         5       roll. )

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 21, nays

         7       35, party vote.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       The amendment is defeated.

        10                      Senator Paterson, why do you

        11       rise?

        12                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

        13       President, would Senator Volker yield for a

        14       question?

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       The Senator yields, Senator Paterson.

        17                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

        18       President, in 1995 when the death penalty

        19       passed in this chamber and in the Assembly and

        20       was signed into law by the Governor, there's

        21       no one who knows better than Senator Volker

        22       how difficult it was to pass that amendment,

        23       to pass that law.

        24                      The issue of passing a law for

        25       many turned on the provision of resources to







                                                          4236

         1       those who would be accused under the statute

         2       and certainly many who had previously voted

         3       against the death penalty voted for it because

         4       they felt that New York was going to provide

         5       as much assistance to anyone accused because

         6       of the seriousness of the actual charge.

         7                      Senator Volker, my question is,

         8       earlier I believe that you said, and I will

         9       take it back if it's wrong, that the assist

        10       ant counsels don't actually provide much

        11       assistance in these types of cases, and I'm

        12       getting the feeling maybe you didn't say

        13       that.

        14                      SENATOR VOLKER:  If I -- I

        15       don't believe I said that.  I was -- what I

        16       was trying to point out is that in certain

        17       cases, in fact there's an argument in certain

        18       cases the assistants actually run some of the

        19       cases.  I mean one of the things that Senator

        20       Abate said is that they devote all their time

        21       to these cases.

        22                      Well, a number of -- several of

        23       the capital attorneys are doing several at the

        24       same time and they're doing a lot of other law

        25       practice cases, and I don't begrudge that, but







                                                          4237

         1       let me point out that what I was trying to

         2       point out, in fact, to Senator Montgomery is

         3       that the fees we're talking about here are all

         4       cases where there was a limited number of

         5       time, a number of involvement of time because

         6       virtually all of them have been pled out and

         7       what we're seeing is that the assistants and

         8       the co-counsel, and so forth, are all involved

         9       in the cases, which is fine, but the numbers

        10       are somewhat astronomical in very short

        11       periods of time and our argument is that al

        12       though we certainly think that they should get

        13       reasonable compensation and since we're -

        14       even under my bill here, we're going to allow

        15       the highest compensation for any attorneys in

        16       the country in capital cases, Senator, we

        17       don't think that we're doing any kind of

        18       limitation that would -- of anybody that did

        19       vote specifically on this issue, and I think

        20       most people who voted did vote for the fact

        21       that they thought there would be reasonable

        22       compensation, and we believe in my bill we are

        23       still giving reasonable compensation to these

        24       attorneys.

        25                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you,







                                                          4238

         1       Senator Volker, and I wasn't exactly sure what

         2       you had said, but I was getting the feeling

         3       that you were implying that the death penalty

         4       cases were kind of a boilerplate type thing

         5       that almost any attorney could actually

         6       execute these types of cases, so thank you for

         7       clearing that up.

         8                      That being the case then,

         9       Senator, why do you draw the distinction

        10       because the federal government certainly

        11       doesn't and the new Criminal Procedure Act

        12       doesn't, why did you draw the distinction

        13       between out-of-court time and time that's

        14       spent in court?

        15                      Certainly one of the reasons

        16       that you have demonstrated a greater knowledge

        17       of the criminal law than the rest of us here,

        18       I would attribute not only to your natural

        19       ability but to the preparation that you bring

        20       to this chamber, and so following that rule of

        21       preparation, I would tend to think that you

        22       have put a lot of time outside this chamber

        23       into your work, and it certainly reflects for

        24       those of us who are in the difficult position

        25       of trying to debate you, the question would be







                                                          4239

         1       similar to the kind of research that goes into

         2       these cases that are argued in court.  Often

         3       the lead counsel has the case right in front

         4       of them, and it's not the most difficult thing

         5       to stand up in court, as it might be to stand

         6       up on this floor, when a lot of generous

         7       research and long hours are put into that, and

         8       I hope all the law counsels and analysts have

         9       heard me when I've mentioned that.

        10                      But in all seriousness,

        11       Senator, why are you drawing that distinction

        12       when it is just as important to research and

        13       prepare a case as it is to argue it in court?

        14                      SENATOR VOLKER:  Senator,

        15       virtually every state in the Union does

        16       differentiate, by the way, except for such

        17       states that have such ridiculously low fees

        18       that they can't very well do that,

        19       differentiate between in court and out of

        20       court and as you well know Surrogate's Court

        21       and virtually every court that I know of, an

        22       attorney dealing in the attorney field deals

        23       differently with out-of-court attorney fees

        24       than they deal with in-court attorney fees.

        25                      Part of the problem is that







                                                          4240

         1       some of the preparation is obviously done by

         2       the lead attorneys themselves; some may well

         3       be done by their assistants.  I think your

         4       office is probably similar to many others

         5       where I have people in our office that handle

         6       part of the preparation for me, even though

         7       maybe I oversee it, but I don't actually do it

         8       myself.

         9                      I think what we're trying to do

        10       here is develop reasonable standards, and I

        11       think generally speaking it's been considered

        12       that the in-court time should have the highest

        13       fees while the out-of-court time should be

        14       something that would be subject to -- to a

        15       lesser amount, still a substantial amount that

        16       would allow the person to get certainly a

        17       goodly fee and, as I pointed out, what there

        18        -- these standards will allow is essentially

        19       the highest still in the country.

        20                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Thank you,

        21       Mad...thank you, Senator Volker.

        22                      Madam President, on the bill.

        23                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        24       Yes, Senator Paterson, on the bill.

        25                      SENATOR PATERSON:  I'm sorry







                                                          4241

         1       about that, Mr. President.

         2                      It would appear to -- to me

         3       that the death penalty is something, even

         4       though we have passed it in this state, is not

         5       not an issue that should be taken lightly,

         6       that the most scrupulous research and the

         7       greatest attention be paid to those situations

         8       where we, as a society, may have to decide to

         9       take someone's life based on an act that is

        10       proven in the courts to have deprived another

        11       of their life.

        12                      With that very high standard,

        13       it is alarming to me that we are going to pass

        14       legislation that isn't even going to actually

        15       bring us in compliance with the federal

        16       standard.  There will still be a possibility

        17       under this law of paying less than the federal

        18       rate for legal fees and for dollars per hour

        19       to counsel who would handle these types of

        20       cases.

        21                      New York State, in the last

        22       five years, has spent $29 million through the

        23       Governor's office, through the Attorney

        24       General's office, on outside counsel paying

        25       over $150 an hour, sometimes in some cases up







                                                          4242

         1       to $350 an hour, on issues relating to

         2       banking, to social service, to Thruway

         3       development, to economic development, the

         4       canal zone, a myriad number of issues that we

         5       have invested money.  The firm of Walton,

         6       Weill and Penza estimates that the amount of

         7       money that we would be spending for the hourly

         8       rate of counsel in this particular case would

         9       be in compliance with what lawyers generally

        10       are paid in the Northeast.

        11                      In addition, a survey shows

        12       that in those states where a lower rate is

        13       provided, there is a greater opportunity for

        14       cases to be overthrown, for cases to be

        15       reversed, and in fact 64 percent of the

        16       convictions for the death penalty in those

        17       cases were actually overturned.

        18                      So we feel that charging the

        19       higher rate brings in the best lawyers, would

        20       solicit the best counsel and would actually be

        21       a cost saving mechanism because in the end we

        22       would have a higher competence and a greater

        23       experience on the part of the lawyers who

        24       would actually try these types of cases.

        25                      We think this is a very serious







                                                          4243

         1       issue.  It does not relate to anybody's

         2       individual position whether it be pro or

         3       against the death penalty.  It has to do with

         4       the seriousness of the charge which we all

         5       acknowledge and the value that we take in what

         6       would be the -- providing for the defense.  In

         7       his initial remarks, Senator Volker did say

         8       that what was driving the cost of death

         9       penalty cases as opposed to life without

        10       parole, which was an argument made by death

        11       penalty opponents, was the defense.

        12                      Even though that argument was

        13       made at that particular time, we accept the

        14       fact that the death penalty does exist in this

        15       state right now, but it should not diminish -

        16       be diminished from what we understood in 1995

        17       when the Governor put forth a bill in which he

        18       articulated to us how this would be a good

        19       bill and how as an argument in favor of the

        20       bill he averred that there would be a great

        21       consideration given to those charged under the

        22       statute and that a reasonable amount of

        23       resources would be devoted to their defense.

        24       A reasonable amount of resources, as we

        25       interpret it, would be that which would comply







                                                          4244

         1       with what the lawyers in the particular area

         2       are making on similar cases.

         3                      We see that sometimes the state

         4       is paying them more for different types of

         5       cases.  We suggest that there be no case that

         6       could be more important than the life of the

         7       defendant in a death penalty case.

         8                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

         9       President.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Senator Dollinger.

        12                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  On the

        13       bill, Mr. President.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Senator Dollinger, on the bill.

        16                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Thank you,

        17       Mr. President.

        18                      I want to clarify just one

        19       issue that the chairman of the Codes Committee

        20       has brought up in which I agree with him and

        21       that is if, in death penalty cases, we have

        22       already seen an explosion of the number of

        23       hours in these cases, if the sense is that, to

        24       use an old-fashioned big firm lawyer

        25       technique, lawyer in a big firm will agree to







                                                          4245

         1       cap his fees at $175 an hour and then he

         2       brings in an associate and just piles on the

         3       hours and that's what drives up the cost of

         4       defense, then I think that's something where

         5       we as a client, the people of the state of New

         6       York, are not getting our hours' worth of

         7       value out of this.

         8                      If this is an issue of too many

         9       hours expended by junior counsel, I think

        10       that's something that the Comptroller needs to

        11       deal with or the capital defender's office

        12       needs to deal with, because quite frankly,

        13       Senator Volker, if what you say is true -- and

        14       I certainly take it at face value -- about a

        15       meeting in which everybody says let's just

        16       pile on the hours so we drive up the cost of

        17       the death penalty so we give more ammunition

        18       to opponents of the death penalty, it seems to

        19       me that that's a disingenuous way to try to

        20       deal with the fundamental issues of the death

        21       penalty, what its social costs and what its

        22       legal cost.  That, for me, that would be, even

        23       though I'm a death penalty opponent, that

        24       would be playing unfair in trying to

        25       manipulate and inflate the cost of defense







                                                          4246

         1       beyond what it otherwise is and throughout the

         2       debate over the death penalty I have argued

         3       that the death penalty would be expensive.

         4       It's going to be expensive because there

         5       clearly will be instances in which you're

         6       going to need to pay for proper defense.

         7                      If we're spending too much on

         8       hours, if lawyers are bilking the system, we

         9       ought to deal with that through the capital

        10       defender's office.  It ought to be handled

        11       administratively and we ought to put an end to

        12       the notion there is a gravy train.  It's not.

        13       It's buying quality defense.  It seems to me,

        14       however, Senator Volker, that the critical

        15       issue for me is will the $125 an hour buy you

        16       the type of counsel that will prevent the

        17       occurrence of an overturned verdict on the

        18       basis of insufficiency of counsel?

        19                      And with -- in this respect,

        20       Senator Volker, I'm willing to suggest that in

        21       my community that you might be able to buy

        22       quality, not the best, the quality legal

        23       services at that cost.  However, there's an

        24       enormous part of this state south, my guess

        25       is, of West Point, where you you cannot buy







                                                          4247

         1       quality legal services for that cost, and what

         2       you will find is in the higher cost legal

         3       portions of this state where the partners'

         4       rates are 350 an hour in the major firms

         5       throughout the City and Long Island, you will

         6       find that for $125 you cannot attract the

         7       quality talent you need to fully try a death

         8       penalty case, and what I'm afraid is, Senator,

         9       that your attempt to restrict the hourly rate

        10       will ensure -- ensure that we have ineffective

        11       assistance of counsel when cases are

        12       prosecuted south of Poughkeepsie.

        13                      It's just my sense that that's

        14       the way the legal market works.  We will not

        15       be able to attract the kind of lawyers that

        16       can handle the complexity of issues that are

        17       necessary in this case, and I'll close with

        18       one question for everybody in this chamber.

        19       Raise your hand if you were charged with the

        20       death penalty and you thought you could get

        21       quality legal representation for $125 an

        22       hour.  I submit to you not one person in this

        23       chamber would hire a lawyer for $125 an hour

        24       and if you did, I would suggest to you you're

        25       significantly increasing the chance that you







                                                          4248

         1       would end up with a guilty verdict.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         3       Read the last section.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 4.

         5       This act shall take effect on the 30th day.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         7       Call the roll.

         8                      (The Secretary called the

         9       roll. )

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Senator Montgomery, to explain your vote.

        12                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.

        13       President, I would like to explain my vote.

        14                      On one hand, I am loathe to -

        15       to support increasing expenditures at the

        16       expense of the -- the so-called criminal

        17       justice system that seems to be eating up more

        18       and more of our resources.  I would much

        19       rather have that money, and if I certainly

        20       could be assured that the money saved would go

        21       into those areas to help develop and build

        22       young people so that they don't come in

        23       contact with the criminal justice system and

        24       give -- make it possible for us to have

        25       opportunities for them, open up a whole







                                                          4249

         1        'nother world for them, I would say maybe

         2       this would make sense.

         3                      But that certainly isn't going

         4       to happen as it has not happened since I've

         5       been here in this chamber.  We've only sought

         6       to reduce the resources that we send into

         7       communities to support the development of

         8       young people while, on the other hand, we

         9       expand and expand the criminal justice system,

        10       so on one hand I hate to defend putting more

        11       money into it but, on the other hand, I must

        12       remind my colleagues that right now in this

        13       nation we see what the extent -- the extent of

        14       the extreme that a prosecutor will go in order

        15       to coerce confession from someone, i.e., Susan

        16       MacDougal who is in prison or may be recently

        17       released, and there's another young woman who

        18       may go to prison to satisfy what the

        19       prosecutor views as his need for a confession,

        20       and there are many instances where there is a

        21       coerced confession that results in

        22       imprisonment and very often it is imprisonment

        23       that is not based on guilt; and I also want to

        24       remind my colleagues that this is a reneging

        25       on a promise, and it is a promise that was







                                                          4250

         1       made here in this chamber standing on the

         2       floor by the very -- by the very author of

         3       this legislation, and that was that we would

         4        -- we would agree to expend the necessary

         5       funds because we all said, those of us who

         6       opposed the death penalty in the first place

         7       knew that it was going to cost money.  That

         8       was one of the arguments that was made, so it

         9       wasn't -- we didn't go into this death penalty

        10       blindly.

        11                      And lastly, I also want to say

        12       to my colleagues that this is the same kind of

        13        -- is the same kind of attitude and action as

        14        -- as, in my opinion, that represents the

        15       kind of pettiness that we engage in as it

        16       relates to the criminal justice system.  We

        17       took away all of the education, even through

        18       the funding for education in the name of

        19       saving money, even though we knew and we still

        20       know that it was a minuscule amount of money

        21       that was expended and it made a tremendous

        22       difference in recidivism.  And what happened

        23       to people when they left -- when they leave

        24       the prisons, and so forth and so on.

        25                      So the whole issue of saving







                                                          4251

         1       money is to me certainly false and if, as has

         2       been stated here by other members, other

         3       colleagues, that the issue of saving money is

         4       just a false issue, this is a fraudulent kind

         5       of approach that we are saving money on

         6       capital cases when we expend any amount of

         7       money that is necessary on any of those cases

         8       that the Attorney General tries and any other

         9       cases.

        10                      So it's -- to me, this is not

        11       necessary.  It's not appropriate.  We should

        12       not be doing this.  Senator Volker knows that

        13       we should not be doing this.  I think in his

        14       heart, he doesn't believe his own legislation,

        15       but this is just something to say to people

        16       that we are going to save money because we

        17       don't care about capital cases.  They are not

        18       important and so this is only something that's

        19       going to pare -- Senator Volker is again, he's

        20       for the death penalty and he is not, and he's

        21       going to cut the cost of the indicted penalty

        22       trial defense.

        23                      So I'm against it.  I hope that

        24       all of my colleagues will vote against this.

        25       This is just one of those times in our history







                                                          4252

         1       and in our Legislature that is very, very

         2       dark, and my two minutes are up, I'm told, but

         3       I'm voting no.  I hope my colleagues vote no.

         4       No.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       Are you sure you're voting no, Senator?

         7                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Yes, I

         8       am.

         9                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Two minutes

        10       and counting.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Announce the results, please.

        13                      THE SECRETARY:  Those recorded

        14       in the negative on Calendar Number 1196 are

        15       Senators Abate, Breslin, Connor, Dollinger,

        16       Markowitz, Mendez, Montgomery, Paterson,

        17       Rosado, Smith, also Senator Stavisky.  Ayes

        18       46, nays 11.

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       The bill is passed.

        21                      Senator Hoffmann.

        22                      SENATOR HOFFMANN:  Mr.

        23       President, I was out of the chamber at the

        24       time 1111 passed.  I would request unanimous

        25       consent to be recorded in the negative.







                                                          4253

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       With unanimous consent, so ordered.

         3                      Senator Skelos.

         4                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

         5       would you call up Calendar Number 1210.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         7       Secretary will read Calendar Number 1210.

         8                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Please

         9       recognize Senator Johnson.

        10                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Mr.

        11       President, also I was out at the time that

        12       that bill was passed, was it 1111, I believe

        13       and I'd like to vote no on it also, same bill

        14       Senator Hoffmann just voted negative on.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       With unanimous consent, so ordered, Senator.

        17                      The Secretary will read.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       1210, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 7556,

        20       an act to amend the Public Officers Law, in

        21       relation to permitting former state officers

        22       and employees to contract.

        23                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Can we have

        24       an explanation, please.

        25                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Lay it aside







                                                          4254

         1       for the day.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         3       Lay the bill aside for the day, please.

         4                      Senator Skelos.

         5                      SENATOR SKELOS:  There will be

         6       an immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in

         7       the Majority Conference Room.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       There will be an immediate meeting of the

        10       Rules Committee in the Majority Conference

        11       Room, immediate meeting of the Rules Committee

        12       in the Majority Conference Room.

        13                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Mr. President,

        14       would you call up 1218.

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        16       1218, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 6852,

        17       an act to amend the Public Officers Law, in

        18       relation to access to law enforcement

        19       records.

        20                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:

        21       Explanation.

        22                      SENATOR GOODMAN:  Mr.

        23       President, would you please put a Sponsor's

        24       star on that bill.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                          4255

         1       The bill will be starred at the sponsor's

         2       request.

         3                      SENATOR SKELOS:  Please call up

         4       Calendar Number 1211.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       1211.  Secretary will read Calendar Number

         7       1211.

         8                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         9       1211, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print Number

        10       6047-B, an act to amend the Civil Rights Law,

        11       in relation to right of privacy.

        12                      SENATOR PATERSON:

        13       Explanation.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Senator Johnson, an explanation has been

        16       requested of your bill.

        17                      SENATOR JOHNSON:  Mr.

        18       President, there -- this bill expands the

        19       privacy rights of victims under the Civil

        20       Rights Law by adding a new section 50 (f).

        21       This has been developed becacuse of abuse of

        22       such information, particularly photographs of

        23       crime victims obtained by criminals, also

        24       disseminated on the Internet and used in other

        25       manners which are embarrassing and damaging







                                                          4256

         1       possibly to the victims of the crime which was

         2       committed.

         3                      There was several recent cases

         4       where the criminals were, under Freedom of In

         5       formation getting these photographs and

         6       hanging them up in their cells and showing

         7       their fellow inmates the beautiful crimes that

         8       they had committed while they were -- and the

         9       reason they were in that jail for the crimes

        10       they committed, and other cases the addresses

        11       had been gotten, and so forth, and so this

        12       expands the privacy rights.

        13                      It says your attorney can get

        14       the information, if you're the victim you can

        15       get it, but others can't get it unless they

        16       have good reason to do so, and those

        17       photographs will not be disseminated

        18       throughout society for people getting their

        19       kicks, and so forth, as an embarrassment to

        20       the victims.

        21                      Any other questions?

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Senator Paterson, why do you rise?

        24                      SENATOR PATERSON:  Mr.

        25       President, this is a piece of legislation that







                                                          4257

         1       definitely demonstrates the sensitivities that

         2       Senator Johnson has shown for those who have

         3       been put in the egregious situation of finding

         4       out that perhaps not only were they violated

         5       through the criminality of others but that

         6       photographs from the crime scene were often

         7       paraded around by the actual criminals as some

         8       kind of demonstration or celebration which is

         9       painful to think that any human being would

        10       actually do this.

        11                      In addition, Senator Johnson

        12       mentioned the use of these types of pictures

        13       on the Internet which are ghoulish and

        14       certainly something that we would want to try

        15       to stop.  Of course, no one that ever saw it

        16       could probably forget the picture in the New

        17       York Post of the casket that carried the body

        18       of John Lennon on December 11th, 1980.  That

        19       was another demonstration that had no value

        20       and brought no dignity to any type of

        21       proceeding or journalism to allow that kind of

        22       thing to happen.

        23                      Unfortunately, to pass this

        24       legislation would be to infringe upon law that

        25       we have made in the past, the Freedom of







                                                          4258

         1       Information Act, and the Freedom of

         2       Information Act is pretty broad and certainly

         3       would allow for certain types of amendments to

         4       be made to it without actually cutting into

         5       what would be the public policy that the

         6       Freedom of Information Act provides.

         7                      For instance, we have the

         8       federal Driver's Privacy Protection Act in

         9       which, if you want information about a driver

        10       you can obtain some information based on an

        11       understanding or based on a commitment that

        12       the information would be used for a certain

        13       purpose.  We suggest that this would be an apt

        14       way to deal with law enforcement cases where

        15       someone would like pictures from a crime

        16       scene.  This way the press could use the

        17       pictures from a crime scene that would not

        18       necessarily involve any kind of denigration or

        19       something that would not want to be seen by

        20       victims but wouldn't give the victims

        21       exclusive power as would be provided under the

        22       law to eliminate such an action and would

        23       continue and restore the full teeth of the

        24       Freedom of Information Act.

        25                      This is a suggestion that we







                                                          4259

         1       make in good faith to Senator Johnson, that he

         2       take a look at at some point in the future, if

         3       we visit this bill again.

         4                      ACTRING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       Read the last section, please.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

         7       This act shall take effect in 30 days.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       Call the roll.

        10                      (The Secretary called the

        11       roll. )

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 56, nays

        13       one, Senator Montgomery recorded in the

        14       negative.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       The bill is passed.

        17                      Secretary will read.

        18                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

        19       1220, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 7023,

        20       an act to amend the Election Law, in relation

        21       to time limits to bring proceedings.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       Read the last section.

        24                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        25       This act shall take effect immediately.







                                                          4260

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Call the roll.

         3                      (The Secretary called the

         4       roll.)

         5                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 57.

         6                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         7       The bill is passed.

         8                      That completes the

         9       controversial calendar, Senator.

        10                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Mr.

        11       President -- Mr. President, just if I could

        12       have unanimous consent to be recorded in the

        13       negative on Calendar 1220.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       Without exception -- without objection.

        16                      SENATOR DOLLINGER:  Thank you.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Senator Larkin.

        19                      SENATOR LARKIN:  May we return

        20       to motions and resolutions.

        21                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        22       Senator Meier.

        23                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,

        24       I wish to call up Senator Onorato's bill,

        25       Senate Print Number 6526, which is now at the







                                                          4261

         1       desk.

         2                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         3       The Secretary will read.

         4                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

         5       Onorato, Senate Print 6526, an act authorizing

         6       the city of New York.

         7                      SENATOR MEIER:  I now move to

         8       reconsider the vote by which this bill was

         9       passed and ask that the bill be restored to

        10       the Third Reading Calendar.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Call the roll on reconsideration.

        13                      (The Secretary called the roll

        14       on reconsideration.)

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 57.

        16                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,

        17       I now move to discharge from the Committee on

        18       Rules Assembly Print Number 10034 and

        19       substitute it for the identical original bill.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       The substitutions are ordered.

        22                      SENATOR MEIER:  I now move that

        23       the substituted Assembly bill have its third

        24       reading at this time.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                          4262

         1       The Secretary will read if you promise not to

         2       hit the microphone again.

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Calendar Number

         4       1214, by member of the Assembly Butler,

         5       Assembly Print 10034, an act authorizing the

         6       city of New York.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         8       Read the last section.

         9                      THE SECRETARY:  Section 2.

        10       This act shall take effect immediately.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Call the roll.

        13                      (The Secretary called the

        14       roll.)

        15                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 57.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       And there is a home rule message and the bill

        18       is passed.

        19                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,

        20       on page number 21, I offer the following

        21       amendments to Calendar Number 710, Senate

        22       Print Number 6432, and ask that said bill

        23       retain its place on the Third Reading

        24       Calendar.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                          4263

         1       The amendments are received and the bill will

         2       retain its place on the Third Reading

         3       Calendar.

         4                      SENATOR MEIER:  On page number

         5       13, I offer the following amendments to

         6       Calendar Number 480, Senate Print Number 6281,

         7       and ask that the bill retain its place on the

         8       Third Reading Calendar.

         9                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        10       The amendments are accepted.

        11                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,

        12       on page number 27, I offer the following

        13       amendments to Calendar Number 879, Senate

        14       Print 4417-C, and ask that said bill retain

        15       its place on the Third Reading Calendar.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       So ordered.

        18                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,

        19       on behalf of Senator Saland, I wish to call up

        20       bill Print Number 7302, recalled from the

        21       Assembly, which is now at the desk.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       The Secretary will read.

        24                      Senator, repeat that again.

        25                      SENATOR MEIER:  7302.







                                                          4264

         1                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

         2       Saland, Senate Print 7302, an act to amend the

         3       Social Services Law.

         4                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,

         5       I now move to reconsider the vote by which

         6       this bill was passed.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         8       Call the roll on reconsideration.

         9                      (The Secretary called the roll

        10       on reconsideration.)

        11                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 57.

        12                      SENATOR MEIER:  I now offer the

        13       following amendments.

        14                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        15       The amendments are accepted.

        16                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,

        17       I wish to call up Senator Seward's bill, Print

        18       Number 3095, recalled from the Assembly, which

        19       is now at the desk.

        20                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        21       The Secretary will read.

        22                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

        23       Seward, Senate Print 3095, an act to amend the

        24       Town Law.

        25                      SENATOR MEIER:  Mr. President,







                                                          4265

         1       I now move to reconsider the vote by which

         2       this bill was passed.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Call the roll on reconsideration.

         5                      (The Secretary called the roll

         6       on reconsideration.)

         7                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 57.

         8                      SENATOR MEIER:  I now offer the

         9       following amendments.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       The amendments are received.

        12                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Mr. President,

        13       would you recognize Senator Montgomery,

        14       please.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       Senator Montgomery, I'll recognize you.

        17                      SENATOR MONTGOMERY:  Yes.

        18       Thank you, Mr. President.

        19                      Senator Kuhl tried to get your

        20       attention, but I see you refused him also.  I

        21       would like unanimous consent -- I want to

        22       thank Senator Kuhl publicly for helping me

        23       even though it didn't work.  I would like

        24       unanimous consent to be recorded in the

        25       negative on Calendar 813.







                                                          4266

         1                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         2       Without objection, I think.

         3                      Senator Larkin.

         4                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Mr. President,

         5       we'll stand at ease for a few minutes 'til we

         6       hear from the Rules Committee.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         8       The Senate will stand at ease awaiting the

         9       report of the Rules Committee.

        10                      (Whereupon, the Senate stood at

        11       ease from 4:50 p.m. until 5:00 p.m.)

        12                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        13       Senator Larkin, may we return to motions,

        14       please.

        15                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Motions and

        16       resolutions.

        17                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        18       Thank you, Senator.

        19                      Senator Balboni.

        20                      SENATOR BALBONI:  Thank you,

        21       Mr. President.

        22                      I would like to offer the

        23       following motions:

        24                      On page number 47, offer the

        25       following amendments to Calendar 120 -- I'm







                                                          4267

         1       sorry -- 1221, Senate Print Number 7400, and I

         2       ask that that bill retain its place on the

         3       Third Reading Calendar.

         4                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         5       The amendments are received.

         6                      SENATOR BALBONI:  And I would

         7       also like to -- wish to call up my bill, 6848,

         8       recalled from the Assembly, which is now at

         9       the desk.

        10                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        11       Read the -

        12                      THE SECRETARY:  By Senator

        13       Johnson, Senate Bill 6848, an act to amend

        14       Chapter 268 of the Laws of 1989.

        15                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        16       Senator Balboni.

        17                      SENATOR BALBONI:  Yes.

        18       Actually, Mr. President, I misspoke.  It's not

        19       my bill.  It's Senator Johnson's bill, but I'm

        20       pleased to be able to bring it before the

        21       house.  Mr. President, I would ask to now

        22       reconsider the vote by which this bill was

        23       passed.

        24                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        25       Call the roll on reconsideration.







                                                          4268

         1                      (The Secretary called the roll

         2       on reconsideration.)

         3                      THE SECRETARY:  Ayes 58.

         4                      SENATOR BALBONI:  Mr.

         5       President, I now offer the following

         6       amendments.

         7                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         8       The amendments are received.

         9                      SENATOR BALBONI:  Thank you,

        10       Mr. President.

        11                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        12       Thank you, Senator Balboni.

        13                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Mr. President,

        14       would you now recognize Senator Santiago,

        15       please.

        16                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        17       Senator Santiago.

        18                      SENATOR SANTIAGO:  Mr.

        19       President, I ask unanimous consent to be

        20       recorded in the negative on Calendar Number

        21       1196.

        22                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        23       With unanimous consent, so ordered.

        24                      SENATOR SANTIAGO:  Thank you.

        25                      SENATOR LARKIN:  May we now







                                                          4269

         1       return to reports of standing committees, Mr.

         2       President.

         3                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         4       Yes.  The Secretary will read the report of

         5       the Rules Committee.

         6                      THE SECRETARY:  Senator Bruno,

         7       from the Committee on Rules, offers up the

         8       following bills directly for third reading:

         9                      Senate Print 786-A, by Senator

        10       Cook, an act to amend the Facilities

        11       Development Corporation Act;

        12                      2402-A, by Senator Volker, an

        13       act to amend the Penal Law;

        14                      2908, by Senator Stavisky, an

        15       act to amend the Penal Law;

        16                      3165, by Senator Trunzo, an act

        17       to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

        18                      3860-A, by Senator Montgomery,

        19       an act authorizing the city of New York;

        20                      3929-A, by Senator Leibell, an

        21       act to amend the Real Property Actions and

        22       Proceedings Law;

        23                      4179-A, by Senator Johnson, an

        24       act to amend the Highway Law;

        25                      4462, by Senator Rath, an act







                                                          4270

         1       to amend the Executive Law;

         2                      5260-A, by Senator Bruno, an

         3       act in relation to the timeliness of the

         4       election of the village of Castleton-on-the

         5       Hudson;

         6                      5463, by Senator Lachman, an

         7       act to amend the Railroad Law;

         8                      5471, by Senator Volker, an act

         9       to amend the Penal Law;

        10                      6016, by Senators Kuhl and

        11       others, an act to amend the Military Law;

        12                      6123, by Senator Marchi, an act

        13       authorizing the city of New York;

        14                      6142-A, by Senators Trunzo and

        15       others, an act to amend the Tax Law;

        16                      6238-B, by Senator Wright, an

        17       act authorizing the city of Watertown;

        18                      6361-A, by Senator Kuhl, an act

        19       to amend the Tax Law;

        20                      6393-A, by Senator Meier, an

        21       act to amend the Military Law;

        22                      6416, by Senator Skelos, an act

        23       to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules;

        24                      6438, by Senator Velella, an

        25       act authorizing the city of New York;







                                                          4271

         1                      6522, by Senator Nozzolio, an

         2       act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control

         3       Law;

         4                      6648, by Senator Balboni, an

         5       act to amend the Local Finance Law;

         6                      6655-A, by Senator Padavan, an

         7       act to amend the Real Property Tax Law;

         8                      6742, by Senator Kuhl, an act

         9       in relation to authorizing the village of Penn

        10       Yan;

        11                      6851, by Senator Balboni, an

        12       act to amend the Environmental Conservation

        13       Law;

        14                      6937, by Senator Volker, an act

        15       to amend the Penal Law;

        16                      6969, by Senator DeFrancisco,

        17       an act to amend the Judiciary Law;

        18                      7034, by Senator Alesi, an act

        19       to amend the Social Services Law;

        20                      7080, by Senator Seward, an act

        21       to amend the Tax Law;

        22                      7222-B, by Senator Larkin, an

        23       act to amend the General Municipal Law;

        24                      7320, by Senator Seward, an act

        25       to amend the Tax Law;







                                                          4272

         1                      7380-A, by Senator Alesi, an

         2       act to amend the Highway Law;

         3                      7389-A, by Senator Santiago, an

         4       act authorizing the city of New York;

         5                      7432, by the Committee on

         6       Rules, an act to amend the General Business

         7       Law;

         8                      7446, by Senator Seward, an act

         9       to amend the Economic Development Law;

        10                      7447, by Senator Seward, an act

        11       to amend the Public Service Law;

        12                      7450, by Senator Johnson, an

        13       act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

        14                      7500-A, by Senator Skelos, an

        15       act to establish the Bay Park Library;

        16                      7555, by Senator Stafford, an

        17       act to amend the Executive Law;

        18                      7569, by Senator Libous, an act

        19       to authorize the trustees;

        20                      7574, by Senator Nozzolio, an

        21       act to amend the Family Court Act;

        22                      7576, by Senator Fuschillo, an

        23       act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

        24                      7628, by Senator Spano, an act

        25       to amend the Labor Law;







                                                          4273

         1                      5346, by Senator Hannon, an act

         2       to amend the Public Health Law and the

         3       Insurance Law.

         4                      All bills directly for third

         5       reading.

         6                      SENATOR LARKIN:  I move to

         7       accept the report of the Rules Committee.

         8                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         9       All in favor of accepting the report of the

        10       Rules Committee signify by saying aye.

        11                      (Response of "Aye".)

        12                      Opposed, nay.

        13                      (There was no response.)

        14                      The report is accepted.

        15                      Senator Larkin.

        16                      SENATOR LARKIN:  Is there any

        17       other housekeeping at the desk?  No further

        18       business, I -

        19                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

        20       Senator, excuse me.  We're just checking to

        21       see if the house is clean.  The house is

        22       clean, sir.

        23                      SENATOR LARKIN:  I hope you

        24       swept it.

        25                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:







                                                          4274

         1       We did.

         2                      SENATOR LARKIN:  No further

         3       business, I move we adjourn until Wednesday,

         4       June the 10th, at 10:00 a.m. sharp.

         5                      ACTING PRESIDENT MARCELLINO:

         6       There being no further business, this chamber

         7       stands adjourned until Wednesday, at 10:00

         8       a.m.  Please check the time.  10:00 a.m.

         9       promptly, June 10th.

        10                      (Whereupon, at 5:07 p.m., the

        11       Senate adjourned.)

        12

        13

        14

        15

        16

        17