Regular Session - April 28, 1999
2427
NEW YORK STATE SENATE
THE
STENOGRAPHIC RECORD
ALBANY, NEW YORK
April 28, 1999
11:05 a.m.
REGULAR SESSION
LT. GOVERNOR MARY O. DONOHUE, President
STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary
2428
P R O C E E D I N G S
THE PRESIDENT: The Senate will
come to order. I ask everyone present to
please rise and repeat with me the Pledge of
Allegiance.
(Whereupon, the assemblage recited
the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
THE PRESIDENT: In the absence of
clergy may we all bow our heads in a moment of
silence.
(Whereupon a moment of silence was
observed.)
THE PRESIDENT: The reading of
the Journal.
THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
Tuesday, April 27th. The Senate met pursuant
to adjournment. The Journal of Monday, April
26th was read and approved. On motion, Senate
adjourned.
THE PRESIDENT: Without object,
the Journal stands approved as read.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: If we could just
stand at ease for a moment, please.
THE PRESIDENT: The Senate stands
2429
at ease.
(The Senate stood at ease from
11:06 to 11:07.)
SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
if we could continue now.
THE PRESIDENT: Presentation of
petitions.
Messages from the Assembly.
Messages from the Governor.
Reports of standing committees.
Reports of select committees.
Communications and reports from
state officers.
Motions and resolutions.
Senator McGee.
SENATOR McGEE: Thank you, Madam
President.
On page number 30 I offer the
following amendments to Calendar Number 455,
Senate Print Number 3874, and ask that the
said bill retain its place on Third Reading
Calendar.
THE PRESIDENT: The amendment is
received and the bill will retain its place on
the Third Reading Calendar.
2430
SENATOR McGEE: Madam President, on
page number 38, on behalf of Senator Nozzolio,
I offer the following amendments to Calendar
Number 578, Senate Print Number 3776 and ask
that said bill retain its place on the Third
Reading Calendar.
THE PRESIDENT: The amendment is
received and the bill will retain its place on
the Third Reading Calendar.
SENATOR McGEE: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: You are welcome.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
I believe there are some substitutions at the
desk if we could please make them.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: On page 8,
Senator Skelos moves to discharge from the
Committee on Codes Assembly Bill 4575 and
substitute it for the identical first report
738.
On page 9, Senator Maltese moves to
discharge from the Committee on Codes Assembly
Bill 1738-A and substitute it for the
2431
identical first report 749.
On page 12, Senator Goodman moves
to discharge from the Committee on
Investigations, Taxation and Government
Operations, Assembly Bill 811 and substitute
it for the identical first report 778.
THE PRESIDENT: Substitutions are
ordered.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: I believe there
is a privileged resolution at the desk by
Senator Connor. May we have the title read
and move for its immediate adoption?
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: By Senator
Connor, legislative resolution commemorating
the Richard Carp Annual Cooperative Village
Breakfast on behalf of the 1999 New York
Metropolitan Campaign for the UJA Federation.
THE PRESIDENT: The question is
on the resolution. All in favor signify by
saying aye.
(Response of "Aye."):
THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay.
2432
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: The resolution is
adopted.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
if we could take up the non-controversial
calendar, please.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
100, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 1013-A,
an act to amend the Family Court Act, in
relation to extensions of child placement.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect on the 90th day.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
341, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3187-A, an
act to amend the Agriculture and Markets Law,
2433
in relation to certain land use in
agricultural production.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
386, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 2898, an
act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to
extending the expiration of provisions.
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay that
aside.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
430, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 1479-A,
an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in
relation to the real property tax exemption
for veterans.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
2434
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect on the 30th day day.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
495, by Senator Balboni, Senate Print 3653, an
act to amend the Environmental Conservation
Law, in relation to dam safety.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 7. This
act shall take effect immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
511, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3275, an
act to amend Chapter 583 of the laws of 1998
relating to authorizing.
2435
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
524, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 3843,
an act to amend the Executive Law, the Arts
and Cultural Affairs Law, in relation to
excluding the secretary of state.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
act shall take effect on the first day of
January.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2436
561, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 3719, an
act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay that
aside, please.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
579, by Senator Nozzollio, Senate Print 3781,
an act to amend the Correction Law, in
relation to inmate use of controlled
substances and marijuana.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Aye 37.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
636, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 4159, an
act, in relation to the transfer of portion of
2437
a highway in the County of St. Lawrence.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
act shall take effect immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
642, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 4410, an
act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
relation to fire trucks.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 37.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar 784, by
Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 5535.
2438
SENATOR SKELOS: Lay it aside,
please.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
aside.
Senator Skelos, that completes the
reading of the non-controversial calendar.
SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President,
if we could stand at ease for a moment,
please.
THE PRESIDENT: The Senate stands
at ease.
(Whereupon the Senate stood at ease
from 11:14 to 11:31.)
SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an
immediate conference of the Majority in the
Majority Conference Room.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: There
will be an immediate meeting of the Majority
Conference in the Majority Conference Room.
The Senate will stand at ease.
(Whereupon the Senate stood at ease
from 11:31 to 12:38.)
2439
SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senate will please come to order.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: If we could
continue with the controversial calendar now,
starting with Calendar Number 386, by Senator
Seward. We will then take up Calendar Number
561, by Senator Bonacic, and then 784, by
Senator Kuhl.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read the controversial calendar
beginning with Calendar 386.
SENATOR SKELOS: Prior to
starting, there will be an immediate meeting
of the Finance Committee in the Majority
Conference Room.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: There
will be an immediate meeting of the Finance
Committee in the Majority Conference Room.
The Secretary will read. Senator
Duane, why do you rise?
SENATOR DUANE: I wanted to ask
for unanimous consent. I wish to be recorded
in the negative on Calendar Number 579.
2440
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without
objection, Senator Duane will be recorded in
the negative on Calendar 579.
The Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
386, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 2898, an
act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to
extending expiration of provisions.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger. No?
Read the last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 55, nays 2.
Senators Dollinger and Gentile recorded in the
negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
561, Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 3719, an
act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
2441
last section.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Explanation,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Bonacic, an explanation has been requested of
Calendar Number 561 by Senator Dollinger.
SENATOR BONACIC: This is an act
to amendment the Criminal Procedure Law, which
would result in the denial of bail or
releasing an individual on their own
recognizance in certain cases and providing
for a quick trial.
The long and the short of this is
that if a person had been convicted of a
felony, and we're talking of 11 categories of
crime which deals in the past with violent
acts and they were arrested a second time that
they would not have the liberty of bail or
recognizance if that conviction of a crime had
occurred in the last 20 years. Or if a person
had been arrested for a violent felony in 11
categories going from murder to rape to
robbery with the use of a weapon and they were
arrested on a second charge for a different
crime of violence, in those circumstances they
2442
would not have bail or be released in their
own recognizance.
That is the purpose of the bill.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
Senator Dollinger.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe we
had some questions on the bill. Senator
Waldon?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Waldon?
SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, I
would respectfully ask to speak regarding my
vote on 579. I was confused about the
numbers.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: All
right. Read the last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 11. This
act shall take effect on the first day of
January.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Those reported in
the negative on Calendar 561 are Senators
2443
Connor, Duane, Montgomery, Sampson,
Schneiderman, Seabrook, Smith, Stavisky, and
Waldon. Ayes 48, nays 9.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
784, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 5535, an
act to amend the Education Law, in relation to
improving school safety.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
is there a message of necessity at the desk?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Yes,
there is.
SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the motion to accept the
message of necessity. All those in favor,
signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Message
is accepted. Bill is before the house. The
2444
Chair recognizes Senator Kuhl.
The Secretary will read. The Chair
recognizes Senator Kuhl.
SENATOR KUHL: Thank you, Mr.
President.
When I became Chairman of the
Senate Education Committee earlier this year I
said that the timing of the assignment was
incredibly fortunate. I also said that New
York State has a great and long standing
tradition of seeking to provide our young
people with a quality system of education. I
further said that here on the brink of a new
century in a world that is changing more
rapidly than it has ever changed before that
this nation was perhaps more focused than ever
on the value of education. And I said that
this meant that we could expect here in New
York State to be at the forefront of
educational challenges and reforms. But, Mr.
President, I didn't have this day in mind.
And so I rise today with some dismay. I rise
with some dismay that in my first session as
Chairman of the Senate Education Committee
we're forced to confront challenges that are
2445
not really about what many of us have always
envisioned as the fundamentals of education.
We're forced to confront challenges
as far away from reading and writing and
learning as we could ever have imagined.
We're forced to confront challenges not about
how to teach our children how to read and
write and learn well, but about how to keep
them safe in school. We're forced to confront
the challenges of violence in our schools.
We don't want to think about metal
detectors in schools. We don't want to think
about a police presence in our schools. We
don't want to think about guns or assaults or
security cameras in our schools. But that is
the reality of what we must face today. Our
actions today represents for me and for all of
those who will support this legislation the
opening of the most important debate and then
dialogue facing New York State.
Recent events have refocused our
priorities in very terrible and heart
wrenching ways. The communities, the state,
the nation have great challenges to confront.
There is a lot of work to do. And the
2446
legislation before us is an important piece of
that work here in New York State. The Safe
Schools Against Violence in Education Act is a
17 point program to help prevent and better
respond to incidence of school violence. Our
plan calls for, number one, a creation of a
code of conduct. It requires that schools
adopt codes of conduct for the maintenance of
order on school grounds and such codes shall
be filed with the State Educational
Department.
Some of the items include
appropriate dress, language and behavior,
which we would expect; security issues,
removal from the class room, discipline
procedures, detention, suspension, expulsion
procedures, procedures for reporting codes
violations, determining violations, imposing
penalties. It would also require a process
for reporting violent incidents to law
enforcement. It also requires districts to
establish committees to review actions
relating to the code.
A second point is a violent
incident reporting system that requires that
2447
the Commission of Education and the Division
of Criminal Justice Services develop a
statewide system for reporting violent
incidences on school grounds. Schools would
report a minimum of the number and types of
violent incidences, the number of suspensions
and other forms of discipline and actions
taken by the school, the age, grade and other
relevant information of disciplined pupils.
Also, an annual report to this body and to the
Governor would be required regarding the
prevalence of violent incidents on school
grounds, and the inclusion of such information
on school report cards, which many of you have
just read for the second time just in the last
couple of weeks.
Thirdly, a school safety plan,
which would be incredibly important in today's
world is required. And this would require
local school boards and law enforcement
agencies to develop and adopt a school safety
plan for crisis response and management.
Schools will be required to develop such plans
in conjunction with the appropriate law
enforcement officials.
2448
Fourth point of the plan is court
notification, which would be requiring family
and criminal courts, which is not currently
required, to notify schools about juvenile
criminal adjudications and convictions.
A fifth piece would require that
disruptive pupils be removed and the proposal
would allow teachers to remove disruptive from
their, and I underline their, class rooms for
up to ten days.
The sixth point would be that there
would be increased suspension periods, periods
which now maximize to five days would be
increased to ten. And it would add principals
to those empowered people to suspend pupils
from school directly. Currently the board,
the superintendent, the district
superintendent have the power to suspended
pupils from school up to five days.
The seventh point with regard to
penalties, penalties for possession and use of
fire arms. It increases the penalty from a
misdemeanor to a Class "D" felony for the
possession of unloaded fire arms on school
grounds. It increases other weapons
2449
possessions on school grounds from a violation
to a Class "A" demeanor. Those weapons would
include such things as air guns, spring guns,
CO2 cartridge propelled guns.
It also would include mandatory
sentences for making use or sale of weapons on
school grounds as felonies, five year sentence
for the use of a fire arm on school grounds, a
Class "B" felony. Five year sentence for
criminal sale of a fire arm on school grounds,
a Class "B" felony. Three year sentence
mandatory for criminal sale of a fire arm on
school grounds in the second degree.
It also prevents those convicted of
these crimes from receiving youthful offender
status, particularly as 14 and 15 year-olds.
And they in particular would be tried as
adults.
The eighth point of the proposal
would elevate assault on teachers or school
personnel that results in an injury from a
misdemeanor to a Class "D" felony.
The ninth point of the proposal
increases from a misdemeanor to a felony as an
assault by a non student that results in an
2450
injury to a student while on school grounds.
A tenth point is that while New
York has some of the toughest gun laws, in New
York there are cases when federal law provides
for even greater criminal sanction. In such
instances this bill would provide that the
state will work with local prosecutors too
facilitate the transfer of certain school gun
crimes to the U.S. attorney's office for
maximum sanction prosecution.
The eleventh proposal point is
there is whistle blower protection included.
Protections for employees who report violent
incidences whereby an employ may not be
disciplined or fired for these incidents.
The proposal also includes a
provision which would allow for blanket
waivers relative to salary caps contained in
sections 211 and 212 of the Retirement and
Social Security Law which would allow retired
law enforcement officers to go to work in our
schools.
The thirteenth point deals with
prevention initiatives and outreach. The
proposal would require that the Commissioner
2451
of Education develop and distribute
interpersonal violence prevention packages for
distribution to schools for use in health and
other related curriculum. Packages would
include student pamphlets, parent pamphlets,
video tapes and other material. It would also
include a teacher training package with lesson
plans and pamphlets, video tapes and other
informative materials.
The fourteenth point deals with
state police safe schools programs, and this
program would be expanded statewide from
several counties where it now operates and
would insure that schools are prepared in case
of a violent emergency.
The program includes curriculum to
teach school personnel to recognize and
address troubled students and how to react
when confronted with a violent situation.
This program includes courses addressing early
detection, conflict resolution, calling in
deescalation techniques, gang identification,
hostage situations, emergency planning, legal
issues related to locker searches and a stand
alone course on the relationship between
2452
school and familial violence.
The fifteenth piece of the proposal
deals with expanding building aid to cover
reimbursement for hand held metal detectors
and security cameras. Currently school
districts are allowed to receive reimbursement
for fixed metal detectors but not the hand
held metal detectors or security cameras.
The sixteenth point deals with
public outreach. And there is a requirement
that a public service campaign on school
violence prevention and parental
responsibility be conducted.
The seventeenth point deals with
the task force on school violence,
investigating methods to coordinate state
efforts in violence prevention and
psychological and mental health and alcohol
and substance abuse services for troubled
youth.
Tragically too many of our schools
are experiencing increases of violence. If we
value the integrity of the learning process we
must face the reality that many
administrators, teachers and other school
2453
staff, as well as the students themselves
really fear for their own safety. A climate
of fear certainly is not conducive to a
quality education.
Many of us recall our childhoods
and we can recall fist fights in class rooms
and disruption from our school days. But what
is happening today has moved certainly to a
different level. The disruptions are becoming
more violent, the use of weapons is becoming
more wide spread. This Safe Schools Against
Violence in Education Act before us today
represents for me an opening effort in what I
see as a long term and constantly evolving
response in safety in schools.
I thank the Governor for this
initiative to immediately bring this proposal
before us. We really have an opportunity to
do some great work today.
I appreciate the work that the
Lieutenant Governor is going to be doing and
has already started on the Task Force on
School Violence. And I know that I speak for
many of you anyway throughout this chamber
when I say that looking forward we can
2454
anticipate working very closely with Governor
Pataki and Lieutenant Governor Donohue and
many of you and certainly our legislative
colleagues in the Assembly to put in place the
most comprehensive, effective strategy for
keeping schools safe in the state.
There is no time or place for
partisan squabble on this matter. This work
is too important. Let me stress that this
legislation before us today is not a single
magical answer and we must vote a great deal
and devote a great deal of care and thought
and consistent diligent attention to the issue
of safety in our schools and the broader issue
of trouble among our youth. But the Safe
Schools Against Violence in Education Act
constitutes, in my opinion, a very solid, a
very good first response.
Thank you, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senate
Waldon.
SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, I
may wish to defer to Senator Paterson or to
Senator Dollinger who I believe may have
something they want to propose to us, but in
2455
the event that that is not the case, then I
would like to ask some questions of the
sponsor.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
Senator Waldon for yielding to me.
Mr. President, there is an
amendment at the desk. I would ask that the
reading of the amendment be waived and that I
be allowed to explain it.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger, if you would permit us a moment to
review the amendment for germaneness we'll be
with you shortly.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Thank
you, Senator Dollinger. The amendment is
germane. We will waive the reading of the
amendment and you now have an opportunity to
explain the amendment.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
Mr. President.
This amendment, if accepted by this
house, would allow -- I appreciate Senator
Kuhl's description of his bill as a long term
evolving commitment to solving this problem.
2456
We, on this side of the aisle I
think recognize that that type of long term
commitment, whether it comes from the
Governor's office or comes from the Lieutenant
Governor's office or comes from the Majority
of this house or the Majority of the other
house, is an appropriate step to take in this
state to begin to deal with the problem of
violence generally and the problem of violence
in our schools. But what this amendment seeks
to do, Mr. President, is to look at the issue
of the weapons that are available in our
society generally and too often appear in our
schools. This bill would restrict access to
military style assault weapons, just the kind
of weapons that were used by the two youths in
Littleton, Colorado.
One of the weapons that
specifically was used in Littleton was a Tech
9. Probably the most vicious type of assault
weapon made. This bill would specifically ban
the sale and the ownership of a Tech 9 in New
York State.
I have spoken before on this floor
about assault weapons and their relationship
2457
to violence. I agree with Senator Kuhl.
There is no one approach that is going to
solve the problem of violence in this state.
There is no one approach that will solve the
problem of violence in our schools in this
state or in this nation. So what we have to
look at is a multifaceted approach. This
amendment would allow a portion of that
approach; the restriction on access to weapons
of mass violence. That is what these are.
These are weapons that allow a single
individual to kill 13 people in a school.
I would suggest to you that if the
conventional weapons that were prominent when
I was a kid, a baseball bat, a knife, if those
weapons had been used we would not be talking
about 13 people killed in the school. The
reason why we're talking about 13 is because
of the violent possibility that these weapons
pose. These are weapons of mass destruction
in our schools. These are weapons that are
built for the confined spaces of school or
post offices or school yards as someone in
California about seven years ago used one.
These are weapons that are used in close
2458
quarters in a room maybe perhaps not even
unlike this room here and they are used to
kill many people in short moments. It seems
to me that if we are going to be realistic
about decreasing the propensity for violence
and decrease the possibility of violence we
need to take back and take away from people
the opportunity to kill many people in a short
time.
I thought about this bill today as
I was driving here to the chamber and I walked
up to the second floor and I walked by the war
room. You ought to go see it. It is really
an impressive part of this building. It has
been restored. It has a ceiling that depicts
the wars that New York State has fought right
from the wars against our native American
brethren right up to the time of the second -
I belive just the first world war. There is a
doughboy in one of the pictures.
I think the tendency is in this
debate to say, wait a second, the guns are not
bad, the guns aren't bad in and of themselves,
it is the people firing the guns that are the
problem. And I guess I look at that and I
2459
could say to everyone in this chamber, the
Germans weren't the problem in World War II,
it was their leader. The Japanese were never
the problem, it was their leader. It was the
one person that drove them to hate and drove
them to violence. And I would suggest to
everybody in this room that there a side of
everyone's character in nation, if not on this
planet that could also drive them to violence.
And that what we need to do is face this war
among ourselves and this war over the dark
side of the human character, whether it is
exhibited by the trenchcoat Mafia or others.
That what we need to do is recognize that in
order to stop that war, in order to take back
the violent power of that war we need to take
away the weapons of war as well. The weapons
that are referred to in this bill which would
be banned or restricted access to are the
weapons war. They have no place in our
schools. They have no place in our
neighborhoods.
And I would just suggest to
everyone in this chamber that if we adopt this
amendment and include it in this bill and it
2460
goes off to a conference committee and becomes
part of the law of this state, as even the
Governor of this state would like it to, I
would just suggest we could do what has ended
all the other wars. We could today sign a
little treaty, a little treaty with the dark
side of our nature and we could simply call it
the treaty of Columbine. A treaty under which
we agreed to voluntarily give up access to
these terrible weapons of war. We step back
from the precipice of violence. And that one
thing that we do all of the time in this
chamber, no matter how we do it, everything
that we do sends a message to the people that
we represent, whether it the message that we
sent with the death penalty that I violently
disagreed with, or whether it is a message
that we send when we increase penalties as
this bill does and we have done hundreds of
other times, or when we lessen penalties, all
of those things send a message to our
constituents, and to our children in schools
about what is right and what is wrong.
I would suggest by signing this
treaty with ourselves with the dark side of
2461
human nature and taking these weapons of
violence away and reducing the possibility for
violence in this state we will send a message
to the school children, the message that we
all want to send, which is that there is no
place for violence in the schools. There is
no place for the weapons of violence in the
schools. School is for learning. School is
for improvement. And not a place where you
take out terror on your fellow students.
Mr. President, I would strongly
recommend that we adopt this amendment today.
I think it will take us that next step. It
will continue us down the road to decreasing
violence in our schools and improving the
quality of education therein.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Excuse
me, Senator Schneiderman.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you,
Mr. President. I rise to speak in support of
this amendment also. I have a daughter in the
public schools in New York City and it is
something that troubles me greatly when issues
come up in my school district about whether or
not you need metal detectors in the elementary
2462
schools versus just metal detectors in the
high schools.
I think that it is elemental that
we are currently the laughing stock of the
industrial world because of our lack of gun
control policies. And at the very least we
can send a strong message in the wake of the
tragedy in Colorado that the weapons of war
are not something we need to tolerate in our
society and this will make the provisions of
the school safety bill that much stronger. It
is a perfect time to send that message and I
rise to urge everyone to vote for this
amendment.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the amendment. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
SENATOR PATERSON: Party vote in
the affirmative, with an exception.
SENATOR SKELOS: Party vote in
the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 22, nays 35.
2463
Party vote with exception.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendment fails.
Senator Dollinger.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: I believe
there is a second amendment at the desk. I
ask that the reading of it be waived and that
I be allowed to address it.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Give us
a moment, Senator Dollinger.
Thank you, Senator Dollinger. We
have reviewed your amendment. The reading of
the amendment is waives as you requested and
you now have an opportunity to explain it.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
Mr. President.
This bill does two things. I have
expressed my view generally about the issue of
violence in school, but this bill really does
two things, Mr. President. It would pass the
children's access to weapons act and amend it
to the underlying bill.
The children's access prevention
act would do two things, Mr. President, would
create criminal responsibilities on the part
2464
of parents who neglect to properly keep
weapons stored in their homes and it would
create accelerated penalties if those weapons
were used by a child in the commission of a
crime or the in the physical injure or
shooting of another individual. So it creates
parental responsibility where guns are
concerned. Which I think in the wake of the
Littleton episode there has been a great deal
of concern in this nation about parental
responsibility in dealing with weapons.
This bill will send a message to
all parents, the same way we have sent
messages before. Same way we have heard a
discussion from all sides of this chamber that
it is important to lay out as a socially
unacceptable behavior that keeping a gun
without it being locked and stored properly is
unacceptable and excessively dangerous
conduct.
The second thing this bill would
do, Mr. President, is this bill would require
trigger locks on guns sold in the State of New
York. Trigger locks would prevent the
discharge of a weapon without the responsible
2465
adult and the owner of the combination or key
to unlock the weapon so it could be
discharged. It would, I believe, go a long
way to eliminating the accidental discharge of
weapons which too often occurs.
Right in Livingston County, not far
from Rochester, a three year old child is
killed when a weapon owned by an off duty
sheriff is improperly stored. His six year
old brother gets a hold of it and accidentally
shoots and kills his three year old brother.
Mr. President, this is another part
of the steps down that long stair way to
making our society safer and making our
schools safer because it is these weapons that
are left lying around the house which are
taken to school. It is these weapons which do
not have triggering devices that are sold to
students that end up in our schools as weapons
of modern school terror.
Lets take a step back from that.
We applaud what Senator Kuhl is trying to do.
We feel this is another important step in
getting to that goal.
I move the amendment, Mr.
2466
President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the amendment. All those in
favor, signify by saying aye.
SENATOR PATERSON: Party vote in
the affirmative.
SENATOR SKELOS: Party vote in
the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 23, nays 34.
Party vote.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendment fails.
Senator Dollinger.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: I yield my
time back to Senator Waldon, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Waldon.
SENATOR WALDON: Sounds more like
the Congress every day in here.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: God help
us, Senator Waldon.
You may proceed.
2467
SENATOR WALDON: Would the
gentleman who is the sponsor of this measure
yield for a question or two?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl, do you yield to a question?
SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy
to.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, very
much, Mr. President.
Senator, permit me please to do a
bit of a preamble to the few questions that I
have. First of all, this legislation was here
last year. It was part of our process even
the year before. I voted for it last year. I
will do that again this year, but I have some
real concerns this year as last year.
In the wake of the Columbine
tragedy we are all looking for answers. I
don't think this is a knee jerk reaction to
that because we did view this last year. But
looking for answers to the question, how could
this have happened.
Knowing what we know about the two
2468
young boys in Colorado would this legislation,
if in place there, have prevented their
assault on their school? Would it have
identified them as threats? Would it have
kept them from getting the weapons of
destruction? Would it have dealt with the
credible hate and psychological chaos they
were experiencing? Would the threat of
locking them up have deterred them?
The fact is that the Columbine
tragedy was a terrorist act akin to machine
gunning women and children in an Athens
airport or bombing an outdoor market in Tel
Aviv. Tough laws and security do not prevent
individuals who are bent on self destruction
from committing the most heinous acts. We
have to deal with the under lying causes; hate
and alienation.
What I want to find out from you is
will this bill do that, so I will now pose a
question or two.
Does your measure provide
psychological counseling to students who are
suspended according to your bill from our
school system?
2469
SENATOR KUHL: Students who are
suspended?
SENATOR WALDON: Yes.
SENATOR KUHL: I don't believe
so.
SENATOR WALDON: Does this bill
if it were to become law -- will this bill I
should say -- if it were to become law engage
the parents in an ongoing dialogue and
interaction with the school, the child, and
the school's authorities so that there can be
some kind of symbiotic relationship amongst
those three entities?
SENATOR KUHL: The bill does have
some portions of it, Senator, that do engage
the entire community, yes.
SENATOR WALDON: Thank you. May
I continue, Mr. President?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: You wish
the sponsor to continue to yield?
SENATOR WALDON: Yes, Mr.
President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR KUHL: Yes.
2470
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR WALDON: Considering what
you just said, Senator Kuhl, will your
proposal help these troubled children deal
with the pressures and stresses they are
obviously experiencing in the school
environment and perhaps even in their homes?
Does it do anything in that regards?
SENATOR KUHL: I believe so,
Senator.
SENATOR WALDON: Could you give
us an example, please?
SENATOR KUHL: Lets take first of
all the conduct. As I outlined in the bill to
you, it involves the entire community in
coming to what is acceptable conduct. And when
you start to involve parents about what things
are acceptable and what are not, school
boards, law enforcement agencies, all of those
kinds of things are brought in, you really get
the community working together toward the
safety of the school. Now, that is a where we
start to engage the entire community in that
process. That is just one example.
2471
SENATOR WALDON: Would the
gentleman continue to yield, Mr. President?.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR KUHL: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR WALDON: America has been
accused of being rather prudish in its
approach to life.
SENATOR KUHL: Excuse me?
SENATOR WALDON: America has been
accused as a nation of being rather prudish in
its approach to life, in its attitude. I
believe though that basic morals, basic moral
fiber is absolutely necessary for us to have a
safe society for people to not yield to the
temptations of violence.
Does this proposal in any way help
to instill morals? Will it teach our children
right from wrong?
SENATOR KUHL: Senator, you have
obviously a philosophy that you have
developed. I have a similar philosophy that I
have developed in my 55 years, 56 years now,
2472
in this world. And one of the things that I
learned or I thought I had learned is that
there is a great need for family. And there
is a responsibility of every parent, of every
mother and every father to actually help in
the nurture of their children that they bring
to this world. And that in fact as part of
that they are supposed to be teaching right
from wrong.
As you know, in our society we have
families that are dysfunctional. We have
families today that are not considered to be
families. And that lends a different kind of
element to our society today that was not
there years ago. It has never been my thought
or my up bringing that the school was meant to
replace that parental responsibility. And so
you will not find anything in this particular
proposal that aims at taking away any
responsibility that has been normally that of
a family and a parent and replacing it with a
school.
SENATOR WALDON: Thank you for
that answer, Senator. Would the gentleman
continue to yield?
2473
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Do you
continue to yield, Senator Kuhl?.
SENATOR KUHL: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR WALDON: One of the major
provisions of your proposal, Senator Kuhl, and
it was well thought out and comprehensive, I
am absolutely certain that in terms of all
that you are as a legislator, as a caring New
Yorker, as someone who is experienced in this
particular milieu, where you attempt to
establish public policy that will insure the
safety and security not only of our schools,
but our streets, our highways and byways, that
you are really well intentioned in doing this.
But when the child is suspended, when the
child is suspended, is there anything in that
suspension that you can relate to us which may
intensify his or her interest in school?
SENATOR KUHL: Well, let me just
kind of through two things your way as far as
an explanation goes, Senator. Number one, you
talked about this being a first approach or
the second approach that this body has really
2474
dealt with this issue. And I understand as we
all get a little older things kind of,
particularly our service here in this body
blends together or gets lengthier that things
tend to blend together a little bit.
Well, we have been dealing as a
Senate body with this issue since 1993. And
we have had a variety of different proposals
dealing with school violence that this house
has dealt with. This piece that is before you
today is the most comprehensive piece that we
have in fact put forward to dealing with
violence in schools. And as I indicated in my
remarks, and I do not know whether you heard
me say specifically, I tried to underline it,
this is a terrific first response. But there
is an on going need to continue to evolve a
system that provides absolute protection to
our students.
Can I guarantee that this bill will
do that? The answer is, No, I can't guarantee
that this bill will do it. I can tell you
that this bill will provide significant safety
to many students, and it may even, in response
to your question I think which I didn't
2475
directly answer, would it have made a
difference in Colorado, I believe this bill,
had it been in Colorado, would have made a
significant difference because this bill
requires that every school have a system in
place that deals with emergencies so that we
would not have had a school system that was
really at loss as to what to do for hours.
There would have been an immediate response
and it could have saved that person who bled
to death on the floor of the school in
Colorado over three to four hours. This bill
has a significant very positive response to a
factual circumstance that we never envisioned
when you started upon this course to provide
protection to our students.
SENATOR WALDON: Thank you,
Senator Kuhl.
Mr. President, if I may, on the
bill.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Waldon, on the bill.
SENATOR WALDON: Let me again
thank Senator Kuhl for a very comprehensive
approach to a very thorny and complex issue.
2476
Our children are our greatest resource and we
should do all that we can to insure that they
realize their fullest potential and become
productive citizens. Let me also applaud the
Governor for drafting this legislation,
crafting this legislation, and giving it to
such a capable senator as Senator Kuhl.
However, I will support the bill, but however,
I believe that we still have a long way to go.
In the communities I serve a
teacher having the authority to suspend a
student without what I call or envision as
proper oversight is an ominous tool. I
believe there should be an immediate review
which will preclude that child's suspension if
it is found that it was a personal matter
between the student and the teacher or any
other untoward occurrence that is not
professionally sound. Sometimes teachers make
mistakes. Sometimes teachers are very
vindictive.
I don't believe that the future of
a child should be in the hands of just one
person in terms of not just his or her
education but that persons image of self. So
2477
I am very concerned about that.
I am concerned about characterizing
our children as criminals so easily. I
believe that there should be some checks and
balances in regard to the whole concept of
guns in school. I don't condone guns in
schools. I don't think anyone in the chamber
condones guns in schools. But when children
have access to weapons at home and bring them
into the school I think we need to look behind
the cause of that gun arriving in the school.
I think there are some real concerns.
And despite how we may posture and
pontificate in this chamber, my dear
colleagues, there is a difference in the
application of this proposal and many like
proposals in our communities. When I say our,
it is just for the purposes of discussions of
this issue. I am talking about people of
color. People whose origins are from Latin
American and Latin experiences. There is a
different application of the law, if you will,
for our children as opposed to other children.
And this is not knee jerk reaction because the
bill was here last year. And as Senator Kuhl
2478
so clearly evidenced to me, we have been
dealing with the issue since 1993, violence in
schools. But Columbine wasn't in a black
area. That area in Colorado had only one
student of color who was killed and not many
black students.
One of the our dearest friends has
a very dear relative in that area and we spoke
on the phone. There is not a lot of Latin
kids in that school, or African-American or
Caribbean-American kids in that school. And
when you look back over the last two years,
these tragedies with mass killings occurred in
places that would be characterized as wealthy,
upper-class, some, almost all white. And yet
we're dealing with this legislation today
which will have in my opinion its most
dramatic negative impact on people of color
and their children.
And for some of us all we have is
our children. Welfare mother, single parent,
head of household struggling to make ends meet
and her child is inadvertently suspended from
school when somebody should have been able to
say to that teacher, hey, wait a minute, lets
2479
really examine what your doing.
I will vote for this because we can
not permit chaos in our schools. We can not
permit mass killings in our school. We can
not permit our children to be destroyed not
only physically but psychologically and
spiritually. But I think we have a long way
to go. And I pray that when we convene the
conference committees that reason will step
forward, that goods minds will work together
and that each of us despite whether we're
Republican or Democrats or whatever else we
may be in terms of our political persuasion
recognize that the children are the greatest
resource and that we must come together and
insure that they become all that they can be.
Thank you, very much, Mr.
President. I will vote yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stavisky.
SENATOR STAVISKY: Mr. President,
will the sponsor yield for a question?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl to you yield to a question from Senator
Stavisky?
2480
SENATOR KUHL: Happy to.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields. Senator Stavisky.
SENATOR STAVISKY: Senator Kuhl,
is there an Assembly sponsor to your
legislation?
SENATOR KUHL: I don't believe
so, sir.
SENATOR STAVISKY: It is my
understanding that an Assembly bill has
passed. What is the difference between that
bill and your bill?
SENATOR KUHL: Senator Stavisky,
there is an Assembly violence bill that is
A-6899. It was past roughly a month ago.
There are a variety of similarities in the
bills. There are some difference in the
bills. Difference being, and let me kind of,
if you want me to do, if you are really that
interested detailwise, I can go through it.
It probably will take me 15, maybe 10 minutes,
but I can maybe be briefer than that. I will
try.
Let me just kind of briefly tell
you, to deal with the codes of conduct, I
2481
outlined in my presentation what was required
under our bill. The Assembly bill requires
schools to adopt codes of conduct for the
maintenance of order on school grounds.
Requires that the policy shall be reviewed
annually and shall be filed with SED.
Requires schools districts to provide an
appeal process in regards to an official
action or decisions of the school board that
relates to the code of conduct.
So both bills have a piece dealing
with the codes of conduct.
The question of violent incidence
reporting systems, the Assembly bill would
require that the Commissioner of Education and
DCJS to develop a statewide system of
reporting violent incidence on school grounds.
Again, both bills includes a provision dealing
with violent incident reporting.
School safety plan, which I
mentioned, would be required by our bill. The
Assembly, each school is required to adopt and
implement a written uniform school district
safety plan. The plan is reviewed on an
annual basis. Similar, not exactly the same
2482
language as our proposal.
Court notification. The Assembly
bill would require a school district and BOCES
to facility and comply with court orders of
protection and temporary orders and includes a
designated education official to assess
educational needs of children who are in
Family Court proceedings. Again, requirement,
but not exactly the same.
Disruptive pupil removal. Assembly
bill, our bill as you may remember when I
outlined it allows for teachers to remove
pupils from a classroom for up to ten days.
Not from school. It doesn't allow school
removal, it allows a removal from the class
room but an alternative education program, as
you know, Senator, having been a long time
involved person in the education arena, has to
be provided. So there is no disruption in the
education program under our plan. The
Assembly bill would allow teachers to place
children in an alternative setting only if the
students presents an immediate threat to the
safety or health of others. Our bill is a
little bit different again, and when children
2483
are disruptive in a class the teacher has a
right to remove those children from that
particular. Our bill takes it just one step
further.
Increased suspension period
application. The Assembly does not increase
existing suspension period and they do not add
principals to the empowered group able to
suspend pupils as our bill does.
Relative to the penalties for
firearms, the Assembly bill does not deal with
the possession of weapons on school grounds.
They do with regard to the use and sale of
fire arms. They establish a Class "D" or a
Class "C" felony depending on the
circumstances. There are a some additional
provisions that they do that are similar to
what we do in that area.
Assault on teachers, another one of
the points. The Assembly bill would increase
from a misdemeanor to a Class "D" felony where
there are assaults on teachers which result in
injury. Our bill does essentially the same
thing except includes school personnel and not
just single out teachers.
2484
Relative to assaults by non
students, both bills are pretty identical here
in that we increase from a misdemeanor to a
felony assault by a non student that results
in injury to a student while on school
grounds.
The Assembly does not deal with
increasing penalties where there are federal
prosecution for gun offenses which are stiffer
than they are under state law. Our bill does.
Whistle blower protection, the Assembly bill
protects employees who report violent
incidents as does our bill.
The retirement penalty provision
which allows former law enforcement agents and
officers to go to work for school districts
with a waiver of the restrictions, the
Assembly bill does not deal with that issue.
The Assembly bill does not contain
a comparable provision that deals with the
inter-personal violence protection or
prevention package that our bill does, talking
about the development of that involving
teachers and video tapes and all that kind of
stuff.
2485
The Assembly bill does not include
an expansion of the program which was the
state police safe schools program.
The building aid reform, the
Assembly bill expands building aid to cover
the cost of construction of alternative
settings for students who are suspended due to
disruptive behavior. Our bill deals with
expanding coverage and reimbursement for
security devices in the temporary situations.
Public outreach proposal in our
bill is not carried out in the Assembly
proposal. The task force issue that was in
our bill the Assembly bill does not deal with.
There are some provisions dealing
with efficiency grants, parent and child
school visitation, Family Court incarcerated
youth program continuations, false reporting
of incidents that are included in the Assembly
bill that are not included in our bill.
You didn't ask, but my overview of
this is there are a lot of pieces of the
Assembly bill that are very, very similar to
ours that we could jointly come together on
relatively quickly. There are some issues
2486
that they have included in their bill that I
think we could warm up to and actual include
in our bill in a joint bill. There are some
pieces in their bill that we could not warm up
to.
That is a brief, I think as brief
as I can be, analytical comparison of the two
bills.
SENATOR STAVISKY: I thank the
sponsor for the detailed explanation and I
believe that what we end up with is a
conference committee of Senate members and
Assembly members if this bill passes. And I
urge support of this bill.
I also urge that those who
represent the Senate and those who represent
the Assembly come together agreeably, come
together in the spirit of cooperation so that
there will be ultimately a united front for
the passage of a safe educational environment
act.
I am going to support this
legislation and ask my colleagues to do that
and I hope that the conference committee
members will agreeably come together with a
2487
combined report that will reflect the thinking
of the Senate and the Assembly.
I'm going to vote aye on the major
bill. Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Montgomery.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, Mr.
President, I would like to ask a couple of
questions of the sponsor, Senator Kuhl.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl do you yield for some questions?
SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy
to yield.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields. Senator Montgomery.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you.
Senator Kuhl, I recognize that the stated
purpose of this legislation is a school safety
environment bill and I think that is a noble
purpose. But I would like to ask you, the
bill, first of all you increase from five to
ten days the length of time a student maybe
suspended without a fair hearing. And the
only students who seem to have some protection
under this law are students with disabilities
2488
based on protections under the Disabilities
Education Act.
I do not know what those
protections are, but my question to you is,
why do we decide that we are going to suspend
students for two weeks rather than one week
without a fair hearing where that student can
come before some official tribunal with the
person who has accused that student in many
instances the teacher so that student has an
opportunity to at least present a case?
SENATOR KUHL: Senator, first of
all let me tell you that I don't know as I
have the benefit of the wisdom why every word
and every provision in this bill was changed
because this is not the Senate bill, this a
bill that I am sponsoring which is a
Governor's program bill, which he sent to both
houses which was picked up by our house
because it contains most everything that we
had in our prior bill that we passed. So I
don't know as I can explain every reason
behind every change.
One of the things that I do note in
this bill is that there is, depending on the
2489
severity of the suspension, either a
requirement for a formal fair hearing or an
informal hearing. And I don't think any
student, and I was quickly reading the
language here, there is a requirement -- I do
not know if you read the language on page 3,
Senator, or not, but certainly there is a
requirement here for the student to be
informed as to why that student is being
suspended. And there is a requirement as you
can see on page 3 as I indicated earlier for
the continued education programing to be
continued during the period of the suspension,
so there really is no break in education for
this child at any time during that school
year.
So suspension, what I guess I am
saying to you is regardless of whether there
is a formal hearing or an informal notice
given to the student, there really is a
continuity of the education program which is
provided to the student. There is no system
under this law which would allow for the
student just to say, for instance, be sent
home without any kind of a continued
2490
educational program.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator, if
you would continue to yield, in the event that
we have a student who has been suspended from
say a science lab or class or a student who
for whatever reason based on conflict of
personality or otherwise, which very often
happens as we all know between teacher and
student, especially as they get into junior
high and high school, and that is that class
happens to be a required class course, foreign
language or a science, some other class, math,
that is extremely important as it relates to
that young person's meeting graduation
requirements. Is there any where in this
legislation that requires that school to
provide exactly that level -- access to that
level of classroom activity in that subject
for two weeks that that young person has been
suspended without a fair hearing?
SENATOR KUHL: You are talking
about suspension from class?
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, by the
teacher, which you are going to allow.
SENATOR KUHL: That is exactly
2491
what the language provides for is that there
is appropriate education, alternative
education for that student.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: In that
subject.
SENATOR KUHL: Yes. It could be
that the -- the practical reality is in larger
school districts, Senator, where you have a
student who is, because a student is being
disruptive, okay, in a class, the teacher
says, Fine, you don't want to study, fine, you
are not going to be in this class, you are out
of my class, and that teacher goes on and
teaches the rest of the students. It is now
incumbent upon that school district to find an
alternative class. Now, in many cases in
bigger school districts they may just take
that student and move that student to another
building and have the same class. Different
teacher, but the same class. Same level.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: What about
the smaller school districts with one high
school?
SENATOR KUHL: Smaller school
districts will have to find under this
2492
proposal a place where they can teach the same
kind of program, maybe in the same building at
a different time under a different teacher,
but they are obligated to do that.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right.
If the Senator will continue to yield?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl, do you continue to yield.
SENATOR KUHL: I do.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right,
thank you.
Senator Kuhl, on page 5, the bill
says consistent with the Federal Gun Free
Schools Act of 1994, a superintendent of
schools has the authority to modify a
suspension on a case by case basis. A
superintendent shall refer the pupil under the
age of 16 who has been determined to have
brought a weapon to school, etcetera, to a
presentment agency for a juvenile delinquency
proceeding consistent with Article 3 of the
Family Court Act, except under this bill that
superintendent now will refer 14 and 15 year
2493
olds to be tried and sentenced as adults.
It sounds like -- and it increases
from a misdemeanor to a Class "D" felony
possession of an unloaded fire arm on school
grounds. So it sounds to me like a 14 year
old who ends up with a gun in their book bag
that maybe belongs to whom ever at their
house, comes to school, that weapon is not
loaded, but even so that 14 year old will now
be referred, based on your law, not to the
Family Court but to be tried and sentenced as
an you adult and with a Class "D" felony
charge.
Is that what the bill does?
SENATOR KUHL: No, I don't
believe so, Senator. There is a difference
between treating a child is an adult at 14 or
15 and a youthful offender offense. Those are
still criminal violations. It is just the
treatment with which those children are
treated. It doesn't have anything to do with
the jurisdictional aspect of Family Court as
opposed to County Court or Supreme Court,
wherever those cases may be tried.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: If the
2494
sponsor will continue to yield?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR KUHL: Be happy to.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Does the
bill not say that those children convicted
under the crimes identified in your bill lose
the opportunity for a youthful offender
status?
SENATOR KUHL: That is correct.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: How does
that relate to them being eligible for -- to
go into the Family Court first before going
into criminal court?
SENATOR KUHL: Family Court -- I
do not know whether if your counsel explained
the difference to you or not.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: No, no, not
quite.
SENATOR KUHL: The last I knew,
Senator, Family Court didn't try criminal
offenses necessarily.
I am sure there are young people
2495
who are petitioned in the Family Court for
various violations. So what I am saying to
you, youthful offender as opposed to being
tried as an adult doesn't necessarily deal
with Family Court, the change there.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Youthful
offender? I'm sorry?
SENATOR KUHL: As I understand
it. Now, I may be wrong. What this
essentially, what our bill does is says that a
14 year old or a 15 year old who can commits
these crimes will no longer be afforded
youthful offender treatment, which would be a
less severe sentence penalty if convicted.
But they have the opportunity to be tried as
adults, much like we do with several other
crimes, more particularly I think murder now.
Those people are no longer afforded that
opportunity so they are tried as an adult and
could suffer the same consequences as an adult
if convicted.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: And do they
go to Family Court first? Do these young
people, 14 and 15 year olds, go into Family
Court first or is this automatically going
2496
into criminal court?
SENATOR KUHL: The bill doesn't
necessarily define that. I think that is a
perhaps a local determination made by a
district attorney on the prosecution of the
offense.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right,
thank you. Just a couple more questions, Mr.
President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl do you continue to yield?
SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy
to.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you.
Senator Kuhl, I note that the bill talks about
on page 10 that the reporting includes the
number -- the reporting of incidents that is
required of the school districts I presume -
the number and types of violent and disruptive
incidents by level of offense, the grounds for
such discipline for suspension, the actions
taken by the school and the school district
and the age and grade level of each student.
2497
Why do you leave out reporting by
race and gender? And the reason that I ask
you that is because we have an experience
which goes back for some years with special
education in the City of New York that special
education has become a dumping ground for
black and Latino male young people in
particular and it grew exponentially when
teachers were given the authority to refer to
special ed along with everybody else in the
school.
So I would like to know why we are
not requiring those districts to report by
race and gender since we know that there is a
disparity not only in suspensions but even in
the placement in special ed classes.
SENATOR KUHL: Senator, I do not
know the answer to your question, but I think
you have to understand that as I understand
this -
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I believe,
Senator, previous versions of the bill did
include this, so for some risen it is not in
this latest version and I just would wonder
why. Why would we take that out because that
2498
is a critical aspect in terms of being able to
evaluate whether or not the use of suspension
is being used against a particular group as
opposed to any other group.
SENATOR KUHL: There is a one
phrase there Senator that why it was excluded
I do not know that in every particular case
that is an absolute requirement. If you look
on line 3 of page 10 under subparagraph 2, you
see it talks about at a minimum.
My belief is to not impose any
unnecessary mandates perhaps what the
Governor's office did is say, Look, this is
what we need as a minimum because the issues
of race and gender may not be something that
is necessary in every school district across
the state. So if it is necessary in the City
of New York, certainly that district could
require it. But for instance in upstate in
one of my districts it may not be of any
requirement. So to require additional
information that is essentially not necessary
for what the ultimate or need is, it is that
way.
Now, that is my guess. I do not
2499
know exactly because I did not draft this
language. I'm not disowning it, I am just
saying I can't explain to you absolutely.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you,
Senator. I understand your not wanting to
disown it. But we all have to deal with it
now that it is before us and I understand.
I just would like one last question
regarding the reporting issue.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl do you continue to yield?
SENATOR KUHL: I would be happy
to.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator, on
page 20, the bill talks about whenever a
person under the age of 19 was enrolled as a
student in public, private, parochial,
intermediate, junior high, vocational or high
school is sentenced for a crime the court has
-- the court that has sentenced such person
shall deliver the certificate of conviction
and provide notification of the sentence
imposed to the school. And any youngster who
2500
is an adjudicated youthful offender or who has
been charged of a crime is enrolled as a
student in a public school that shall be -
the school shall be notified of such
adjudication forthright.
My question to you is, that we
certainly want the school to know that there
is a youngster who is being reintegrated I
presume whose had some problems with the
juvenile justice system and as I asked in the
Committee meeting I wanted to ask this
question on record here, we know that that
poses a particular issue for not only the
young person who is being reintegrated but all
of the students in that school who now have a
person coming back who may present particular
problems, the school that may or may not have
the capacity to deal with that young person or
may not even know that there is a needs for
some special support.
What do we have in place that
requires and supports a district and a school
to deal with these young people who come back
and the court is saying to them, we're
requiring the court to give them the
2501
information but what are we requiring of
ourselves to provide for those young people
who are being reintegrated to help that school
district or that school deal with it?
SENATOR KUHL: I don't know that
I can answer that question all inclusively
without a fact pad because I don't know really
what is going to be included in the sentence.
It may be something to the effect that you
will attend school regularly. Well, if the
school doesn't know that that is part of the
condition, how do they know they are supposed
to report that truancy if it occurs.
Or it maybe something being as -
and I am being facetious now -- that you will
wear clothes that are customarily accepted in
accordance with the code of conduct developed
by the school district, meaning that you will
wear collared shirts, you will wear long
pants, you will wear a blazer, you might even
be required to wear a tie like we are when we
enter this chamber.
Now, how would that school know
that it was a condition of that sentence in
fact if they never saw the sentencing
2502
certificate. So I think what this is to
provide continuity and communication from a
system that really hasn't been interacting as
efficiently as we would like to see it
interact with a school system which is
particularly maybe being included but not
necessarily notified. So I think that is
really what the whole basis of that language
is all about.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. Thank
you, Senator Kuhl, for your patience.
Mr. President on the bill.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Montgomery, on the bill.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Briefly, I
just, the questions that I have raised on this
legislation leave me very troubled and
obviously I am not able to vote in good
conscience on this bill. We're talking about
the lives of young people perhaps for
generations to come and of course many of us
have forgotten what it means to be 13 or 14 or
15 and the kinds of things that we do at that
age, or that we did at that age, we have long
forgotten and we think that we're all perfect
2503
because obviously by now at our age we are.
We have no choice.
But I want to read from a memo from
the NEA which I think sums up what I think we
need to be talking about if we are really
going to provide a safe and wholesome
environment for young people in our state.
We need to be providing resources
for schools to implement effective mediation
and conflict resolution programs for young
people and for children. We need to provide
training for teachers and bus drivers and
administrators and everyone in the school to
be able to identify and report warning signs
of violence and mental health problems. We
need to make sure that there are enough
guidance counselors and school psychologists
and sociologists and health professionals and
mental health professionals in our schools so
that they are there to provide immediate
support when young people are in crises and we
know that obviously many of them are.
We need to urge every adult to
reconnect with children, including ourselves.
Our children need role models and mentors and
2504
adults to listen and to support them.
We need to demand that the media
and the entertainment industry stop the
endless violence paraded before our children
every night, every day on television, in the
movies, in video games, in the -- in their
music, every where they go.
There are a lot of things that we
can be doing to make our schools safe and our
community safe and our children safe, but I'm
not sure that this is an answer and any way it
certainly is not an answer to what happened in
Columbine High School.
So Mr. President, I will be voting
in the negative.
Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Oppenheimer.
SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I can
appreciate what my colleagues have said. I,
however, went on this bill because I think we
have to move ahead with a bill in this house.
I feel strongly that it is essential that we
have a conference committee so we'll be able
to sit down and work out a single bill that
2505
will meet with approval in both of the houses.
My concern is that we really have
to be dealing with what I see as the root
cause and not the consequence, as horrible as
the consequence has been. And the root cause
can only, in my opinion, be handled through
intervention very early with programs and
education and violence prevention. And the
earlier the better, starting at kindergarten
with discussions of alternative dispute
resolution. There are other ways to settle
fights and to settle unresolved negative
hostile feelings than by pulling out weapons
of destruction.
I think it is time we put our money
where our mouths have been and we fund these
kinds of programs throughout the school
curricula from K through 12. It is not enough
to mention these programs in passing at young
years. They must be reinforced year after
year with different curricula for each year.
And that is the only way that I can see that
we have hopes of preventing violence.
That is not to say that we should
turn our heads away from the instruments of
2506
mass violence which our amendment dealt with
earlier today. I think it is essential that
we ban assault weapons that were only intended
or use in war. I think it is essential that
we put safe storage of guns into a law. And
that we separate the guns that are safely
stored from the bullets must be safety stored
in a different place from the guns. I think
it is important that we get those safety locks
put on the guns also.
But I think in looking at the two
bills, the one in the Assembly and the one in
our house that the one feature that they have
not addressed adequately for me is sufficient
funding to address alternative dispute
resolution.
I feel this is a good bill and I
hope we will get to conference committee as
soon as possible.
I am voting yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 35. This
act shall take effect July 1st, 1999.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
2507
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Marchi.
SENATOR MARCHI: Is this the vote
on the bill?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Yes it
is, Senator.
SENATOR MARCHI: I wish to speak
to it.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Marchi to explain his vote.
SENATOR MARCHI: Well, I would
rather you withdraw the roll call. I move
that we withdraw the role call and permit me
to speak to this bill.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
motion is to withdraw the roll call. All in
favor of the motion signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
if any?
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without
objection you may proceed on the bill, Senator
2508
March.
SENATOR MARCHI: Mr. President, I
am very pleased to see the growing and evident
concurrence on both sides of the aisle. I
haven't heard anything said that doesn't sound
a strong tone of resonance on what we ought to
be doing.
I had characterized the actions
taken in the other house as death bed
repentance. And perhaps that is overstating
the case because the impact of the tragedy
that took place in Colorado has made a
profound impression on everyone. And the fact
that we have been on this and alert to it in
this house with measures that we have passed
repeatedly and now we embody it in a total
bill gives me great satisfaction.
However, I wish to point out one
item that we don't have, and I am not going to
suggest that we include it this is time. I am
in the process of formulating it. Those of
you who have had the opportunity of reading
the article by emeritus professor of UCLA,
James Keil Wilson, who is a close friend of
mine, and member of the Rand Corporation, in
2509
academic circles has established himself so
well in an article, an op ed piece in the New
York Times yesterday had a magnificent article
and many of the principles that he espoused
then he repeats.
He closes with this remark. In the
meantime, a small suggestion. Schools can
require all their students to conform to dress
codes or even wear uniforms so as to reduce
the chances of cults forming around modes of
dress. This may be a debatable issue with
some people. However, and the last one, stop
telling schools that they can not teach about
spiritual alternatives to modish culture and a
grim thought that we have created a new kind
of adolescent culture, one that we may never
be able to fix.
Mr. President, before you started
and before you presided over many of these
meetings and for 43 years we have opened all
of our sessions with prayers from ministers,
priests, rabbis, imam, and those thousands of
times, this is my 43rd year, I have never
heard one that didn't elicit the best from us.
We have in our Pledge of Allegiance
2510
we are endowed by our creator with certain
inalienable rights. That was reformulated and
that was part of the Education Law. In
Section 801, Article 17 of the Education Law
was reformulated in 1936 in order to promote a
spirit of patriotic and civic service and
obligation and to foster in the children of
the state moral and intellectual qualities.
And it goes on to say in preparing to meet the
obligations of citizenship in peace or in war
the Regents of the University of the State of
New York shall prescribe courses of
instruction and they go on to mention subjects
such as slavery, holocaust, the potato famine
in Ireland and so on.
Number 3, Section 3, says the
regents shall determine the subjects to be
included in such courses of instruction in
patriotism, citizenship, human rights, the
amendments thereto, the provisions of the
constitution of the United States. The
amendments thereto, Declaration of
Independence. The Constitution of the State
of New York.
That's part of the Education Law
2511
and the regents are supposed to be doing these
things.
I invite your attention, Mr.
President, that this Declaration of
Independence that was formulated mostly by
Thomas Jefferson and provided and undergirded
our Declaration of Independence as a new
nation provides, "We hold these truths to be
self-evident that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their creator with
certain unalienable rights. Among these are
life, liberty and pursuit of happiness." And
also phrases appealing to the supreme judge of
the world and reliance on the protection of
divine providence. This was in our
declaration of independence.
When it came around to manmade
formulation we had slavery but for purposes of
representation three-fifths of a person was
recognized as a balancing factor. Until in
1860 the moral stirrings in this nation moved
us to change that.
We mention the Constitution of the
State of New York. Mr. President, do we know
that the preamble of constitution prescribes,
2512
"We the people of the State of New York
grateful to almighty god for our freedom in
order to secure his blessing do establish this
constitution."
I am preparing, in the process of
preparing, making it precise as it relates to
the Declaration of Independence to include
those very words that I articulated that come
directly from our Declaration of Independence.
As well as what the words that are in the
preamble in our instructions to the Board of
Regents in their formulation.
Unless we have a spiritual
conception of man, and I mean that in the
generic sense, of person we have missed our
greatest opportunity. The same thing that I
have heard for thousands of time from
ministers, priests and rabbis and imam about
love, love of our fellow man as we love
ourselves. Unless we hold this conception of
our fellow man as a person created in the
imagine and likeness of God again going back
to our basic foundations of this nation, we
will have missed a great opportunity to give
it a content that will further dramatize the
2513
formulations that we make from time to time,
and this is a good one that we're making today
and which is enjoying our support. But unless
we do those things, Mr. President, we miss an
important opportunity to reinforcing,
reinforcing those human expressions and
ordinations that we make in a free and
democratic society, small D, as well as a big
D and big R and a big anything else. But we
miss that important opportunity, Mr.
President.
I thought it germane to make these
remarks during the course of debate and I will
have my bill ready for introduction this week.
I certainly wanted to compliment
those who have spoken to this, especially
Senator Kuhl, who with great dignity and with
great responsiveness has met all of the
challenges and I am very happy to exhort all
of my colleagues to support this unanimously.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 35, this
act shall take effect July 1st, 1999.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
2514
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Those reported in
the negative on Calendar 784, Senators Duane,
Mendez, Montgomery and Seabrook.
Ayes 53, nays 4.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Waldon.
SENATOR WALDON: Mr. President, I
request respectfully unanimous consent. I was
out of the chamber on other business when we
voted on Calendar 579, to be recorded in the
negative on 579.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: You will
be recorded as voting in the negative on
Calendar 579.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
if we could return to reports of standing
committees, I believe there is a report of the
Finance Committee at the desk. I ask that it
be read.
2515
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Reports
of standing committees. The Secretary will
read.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford
from the Committee on Finance reports the
following bill directly for third reading,
Senate Print 5538, by the Committee on Rules,
an act making appropriations for the support
of government.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
at this time if we could take up Calendar
Number 800, Senate 5538.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: In relation to
Calendar Number 800, Senator Stafford moves to
discharge from the Committee on Finance
Assembly Print 8080 and substitute it for the
identical third reading 800.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Sub
stitution ordered.
Senator Skelos. The Secretary will
read.
2516
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
800, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,
Assembly Print 8080, an act making
appropriation for the support of government.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Is there a
message of necessity and appropriation at the
desk?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: There is
a message at the desk.
SENATOR SKELOS: Move to accept.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
motion is to accept the message of
appropriation and necessity. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
message is accepted. The bill is before the
house.
Reads the last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
2517
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes 57.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
Senator McGee.
SENATOR McGEE: On page number 18 I
offer the following amendment to Calendar
Number 128 on behalf of Senator Alesi, and ask
that said bill retain its place on Third
Reading Calendar.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendment is the bill will retain its place on
the Third Reading Calendar.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Would you please
recognize Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
I would like to be recorded in the negative on
Calender Number 561 with unanimous consent.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without
objection, Senator Paterson will be recorded
in the negative on Calendar Number 561.
2518
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Any other
housekeeping at the desk?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Nothing
more at the desk, Senator.
SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
on behalf of Senator Bruno I hand up the
following committee assignment and that it be
filed.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: It has
been received and it will be filed.
SENATOR SKELOS: There being no
further business I move we adjourn until
Monday, May 3rd at 3:00 p.m., intervening days
being legislative days.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: On
motion, the Senate stands adjourned until
Monday, May 3rd at 3:00 p.m. Intervening days
will be legislative days.
(Whereupon, at 2:14 p.m., the
Senate adjourned.)