Regular Session - June 9, 1999
4318
NEW YORK STATE SENATE
THE
STENOGRAPHIC RECORD
ALBANY, NEW YORK
June 9, 1999
11:08 a.m.
REGULAR SESSION
SENATOR RAYMOND MEIER, Acting President
STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary
4319
P R O C E E D I N G S
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senate will come to order.
I ask everyone present to please
rise and repeat with me the Pledge of
Allegiance.
(Whereupon, the assemblage recited
the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: In the
absence of clergy, I ask everyone present to
please bow their heads in a moment of silence.
(Whereupon, the assemblage
respected a moment of silence.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Reading
of the Journal.
THE SECRETARY: In Senate,
Tuesday, June 8th, the Senate met pursuant to
adjournment. The Journal of Monday, June 7,
was read and approved. On motion, Senate
adjourned.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without
objection, the Journal stands approved as
read.
Presentation of petitions.
Messages from the Assembly.
4320
Messages from the Governor.
Reports of standing committees.
Reports of select committees.
Communications and reports from
state officers.
Motions and resolutions.
Senator Farley.
SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you,
Mr. President.
On behalf of Senator Goodman, on
page 9 I offer the following amendments to
Calendar 282, Senate Print 2453, and I ask
that that bill retain its place on the Third
Reading Calendar.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendments are received, and the bill will
retain its place on the Third Reading
Calendar.
SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President,
on behalf of our distinguished Majority
Leader, Senator Bruno, I move to commit Senate
Print 3464, Calendar Number 374, that's on the
order of third reading, to the Committee on
Rules.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: So
4321
ordered.
SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
Senator Maltese, Mr. President, on page 14 I
offer the following amendments to Calendar
Number 416, Senate Print 2188A, and I ask that
that bill retain its place.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendments are received, and the bill will
retain its place on the Third Reading
Calendar.
SENATOR FARLEY: On behalf of
Senator Larkin, Mr. President, on page 9 I
offer the following amendments to Calendar
Number 257, Senate Print 2534, and I ask that
that bill retain its place on the Third
Reading Calendar.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendments are received, and the bill will
retain its place on the Third Reading
Calendar.
SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I
wish to call up Senator Skelos's bill, Senate
Print 3071, which was recalled from the
Assembly, which is now at the desk.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
4322
Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
553, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3071, an
act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules.
SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to
reconsider the vote by which this bill was
passed.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll on reconsideration.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 38.
SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I
now offer the following amendments.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Amendm
ents received.
SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President,
on behalf of Senator Alesi, I wish to call up
his bill, Senate Print 96A, which was recalled
from the Assembly, which is now at the desk.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
119, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 96, an act
to amend the General Business Law.
SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I
4323
now move to reconsider the vote by which this
bill passed.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll on reconsideration.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 38.
SENATOR FARLEY: Mr. President, I
now offer the following amendments.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendments are received.
SENATOR BRUNO: Are there any
substitutions at the desk, Mr. President?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Yes,
there are, Senator Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Would you please
make the substitutions.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read the substitutions.
THE SECRETARY: On page 4,
Senator Johnson moves to discharge, from the
Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 3522A
and substitute it for the identical Third
Reading Calendar, 45.
On page 10, Senator Johnson moves
to discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
4324
Assembly Bill Number 8063A and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar, 304.
On page 18, Senator Bruno moves to
discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
Assembly Bill Number 8237 and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar, 529.
On page 21, Senator Leibell moves
to discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
Assembly Bill Number 5864 and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar, 604.
On page 30, Senator Fuschillo moves
to discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
Assembly Bill Number 2969A and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar, 797.
On page 39, Senator Volker moves to
discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
Assembly Bill Number 6052A and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar, 943.
On page 41, Senator Volker moves to
discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
Assembly Bill Number 7135A and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar, 972.
On page 41, Senator Marcellino
moves to discharge, from the Committee on
Rules, Assembly Bill Number 8111 and
4325
substitute it for the identical Third Reading
Calendar, 973.
On page 50, Senator Kruger moves to
discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
Assembly Bill Number 6571 and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar,
1218.
On page 50, Senator Alesi moves to
discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
Assembly Bill Number 3030, and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar,
1219.
On page 50, Senator Goodman moves
to discharge, from the Committee on Health,
Assembly Bill Number 1402 and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar,
1220.
On page 51 Senator Lack moves to
discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
Assembly Bill Number 5607A and substitute it
for the identical Third Reading Calendar,
1226.
On page 51, Senator Saland moves to
discharge, from the Committee on Rules,
Assembly Bill Number 7643, and substitute it
4326
for the identical Third Reading Calendar,
1227.
And on page 53, Senator Maziarz
moves to discharge, from the Committee on
Rules, Assembly Bill Number 7963 and
substitute it for the identical Third Reading
Calendar, 1244.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:
Substitutions ordered.
Senator Farley.
SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you,
Mr. President. On behalf of Senator Skelos,
on page 13 I offer the following amendments to
Calendar 376, Senate Print 902B, and I ask
that that bill retain its place on the Third
Reading Calendar.
THE SECRETARY: Amendments
received, and the bill will retain its place
on the Third Reading Calendar.
Senator Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
can we call for an immediate meeting of the
Finance Committee in Room 332.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Immed
iate meeting of the Finance Committee in Room
4327
332.
Senator Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
believe that there is a privileged resolution
at the desk by Senator Goodman. I would ask
that the title be read and move for its
immediate adoption.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: By Senator
Goodman, Legislation Resolution Number 1852,
mourning the death of Jerome Green,
distinguished citizen and philanthropist.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the resolution. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
resolution is adopted.
Senator Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President, I
believe that there is another privileged
4328
resolution at the desk, by Senator Connor. I
would ask that the title be read and move for
its immediate adoption.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: By Senator
Connor, Legislation Resolution Number 1853,
commemorating the 1999 Lower East Side
Festival on Sunday, June 13, 1999, celebrating
the immigrant experience and welcoming the new
millennium.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the resolution. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
resolution is adopted.
Senator Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
can we at this time take up the
noncontroversial reading of the calendar.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
4329
Secretary will read the noncontroversial
calendar.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
245, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 2063, an
act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
relation to the definition of technology
development organizations.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 42.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
501, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4360, an
act to amend the Workers' Compensation Law, in
relation to the investment of the State
Insurance Fund.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4330
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 42.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
658, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3529, an
act to amend -
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
685, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 3895, an
act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in
relation to retirement benefits.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 42.
4331
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
706, by Senator Spano, Senate Print 4603 -
SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside for
the day.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside for the day.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
747, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3524A, an
act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules,
in relation to conducting.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect on the first day of
January.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 42.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
779, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2953, an
4332
act to amend the Tax Law -
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
813, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 5028, an
act to amend the Civil Service Law -
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside,
please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
826, by Senator Hoffmann, Senate Print 5092,
an act to amend the Agriculture and Markets
Law, in relation to measuring protein content
in milk.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 42.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
4333
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
934, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4887, an
act to amend the Domestic Relations Law, in
relation to notification of adoptive parents.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
942, by Member of the Assembly Gottfried,
Assembly Print Number 5310, an act to amend
the Public Health Law, in relation to adoptive
information registries.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
4334
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
960, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 5088, an
act to amend the Public Health Law, in
relation to authorizing.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
990, by Member of the Assembly Lentol,
Assembly Print Number 7664, an act to amend
the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to
designation.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
4335
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
992, by the Assembly Committee on Rules,
Assembly Print Number 8235, an act to amend
the Criminal Procedure Law, in relation to
interim probation supervision.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect in 90 days.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4336
995, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3537, an
act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in
relation to verdict sheets.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 44. Nays,
1.
Ayes, 43. Nays, 2. Senators
Montgomery and Duane recorded in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1213, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 1A, an
act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to
allowing a reduction.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
4337
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1214, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 2A, an
act to amend the Tax Law -
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1215, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 3A, an
act in relation to enacting the Jobs 2000 for
New York State Act.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1216, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 5, an act
to amend the State Finance Law, in relation to
Debt Reduction Reserve Fund.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
4338
Paterson, why do you rise?
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside,
please.
THE SECRETARY: Lay the bill
aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1217, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 4,
Concurrent Resolution of the Senate and
Assembly Proposing Amendments to Article 7 of
the Constitution.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside,
please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1218, substituted earlier today by Member of
the Assembly Weinstein, Assembly Print Number
6571, an act authorizing the City of New York
to reconvey its interest in certain real
property.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: There's
a home rule message at the desk.
Read the last section.
4339
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1219, substituted earlier today by Member of
the Assembly Koon, Assembly Bill Number 3030,
an act in relation to permitting the reopening
of the optional 20-year retirement plan.
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1220, by -- substituted earlier today by
Member of the Assembly Gottfried, Assembly
Print Number 1402, an act to amend the Public
Health Law, in relation to the use of
automated external defibrillators.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4340
act shall take effect immediately.
THE SECRETARY: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 45.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1221, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 1557,
an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law,
in relation to the power of certain towns.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: There is
a home rule message at the desk.
Read the last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect on the 60th day.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 46.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1223, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 1969,
an act to amend the Public Health Law, in
relation to authorizing and directing.
4341
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1224, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 3069, an
act to amend the -
SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside for
the day, please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside for the day.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1225, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 3245, an
act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in
relation to exempting.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 46. Nays,
3. Senators McGee, Montgomery, and Sampson
recorded in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
4342
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1226, substituted earlier today by Member of
the Assembly Bragman, Assembly Print Number
5607A, an act to amend Chapter 69 of the Laws
of 1992.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1227, substituted earlier today by Member of
the Assembly Schimminger, Assembly Print
Number 7643, an act to amend the State Finance
Law, in relation to the linked deposit
program.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4343
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1228, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print
4134A, an act to amend the Environmental
Conservation Law, in relation to management.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This
act shall take effect on the first day of
January.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1230, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 4207,
an act to amend the State Finance Law, in
4344
relation to payment of claims.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1231, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 4298, an
act in relation in the timeliness of the
election of the Village of
Castleton-on-Hudson.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: There's
home rule message at the desk.
Read the last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
4345
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1232, by Senator McGee, Senate Print 4322, an
act to amend the New York State Urban
Development Corporation Act, in relation to
the regional revolving loan trust fund.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1233, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 4484,
an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to
the provision.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
4346
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1234, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 4546A,
an act to amend the Tax Law in relation to
interest allowed or paid.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1235, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 4754, an
act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law and
Chapter 713 of the Laws of 1988.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
4347
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1236, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 4762, an
act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law -
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1237, by Senator Maltese, Senate Print 4810,
an act to amend the Environmental Conservation
Law, in relation to penalties for unlawful
taking.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
4348
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1238, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 4886,
an act to amend Chapter 188 of the Laws of
1862, entitled "An Act to Incorporate the New
York State Convention of Universalists."
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1239, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 4900A,
an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to
the criminal possession.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
4349
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
act shall take effect on the first day of
November.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1240, by Senator Maziarz, Senate Print 4959,
an act to amend the Town Law, in relation to
authorizing the use of water rates.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4350
1241, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 5014A,
an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law
and the Insurance Law, in relation to
assessments.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
act shall take effect in 180 days.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1242, by Senator Hoffmann, Senate Print 5054,
an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law
and the Insurance Law, in relation to
exclusion.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
SENATOR PATERSON: Lay it aside.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4351
1243, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 5069, an
act to amend the Banking Law, in relation to
junior mortgage loans.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1244, by -- substituted earlier today by the
Assembly Committee on Rules, Assembly Print
Number 7963, an act to amend Chapter 693 of
the Laws of 1996.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
4352
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1245, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 5198,
an act to amend the Administrative Code of the
City of New York, in relation to the
certification.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect in 180 days.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1246, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 5616,
an act to amend the General Municipal Law, in
relation to tax exemptions.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
4353
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 49.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
that completes the reading of the
noncontroversial calendar.
SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
can we at this time take up the controversial
calendar.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read the controversial
calendar.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
658, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3529, an
act to amend the Insurance Law -
SENATOR BRUNO: Lay it aside
temporarily.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Lay the
bill aside temporarily.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
779, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2953, an
4354
act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to the
tax on sales and compensating use tax.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson, why do you rise?
SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
might we hold that for a moment for Senator
Dollinger, who is in the Finance Committee
meeting?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: We will
lay the bill aside.
The Secretary will continue to
read.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
813, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 5028, an
act to amend the Civil Service Law, in
relation to the payment of a hazardous-duty
differential.
SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation,
please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Leibell, an explanation has been requested of
Calendar 813 by Senator Paterson.
4355
SENATOR LEIBELL: Mr. President,
this bill would amend Section 130 of the Civil
Service Law to authorize payment of a
hazardous-duty differential subject to the
approval of the Division of the Budget to
employees of DOT who are working in an
unavoidable, clear, and direct risk to their
safety and health.
Employees of the DOT routinely work
on highly traveled roads and highways. The
maintenance and operation functions of these
employees is vital to the state's
infrastructure, economy, and the safety of our
state.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
Mr. President. If Senator Leibell would
please yield for a couple of questions.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Leibell, do you yield for a question?
SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, Mr.
President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
4356
SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, have
you approximated what the cost of providing
this new protection will be to the state?
SENATOR LEIBELL: It would depend
on negotiations that would occur between the
state and the bargaining unit, as to what sort
of funds would be available to cover any sort
of differential.
SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator,
that actually brings me to the next question.
I thought that perhaps something that we
described as hazardous, just by the nature of
the definition, is something somewhat
subjective. And that being the case, I'm
wondering why this was -- would not be an
issue that would have been handled through
collective bargaining.
SENATOR LEIBELL: Well, it is in
effect handled through collective bargaining,
because it's something that the negotiating
unit is going to be discussing with the
commissioner.
But in terms of it being a
subjective test, we all know the tremendous
job our workers for DOT do, and we know that
4357
these are some of the most dangerous jobs in
the State of New York. And in fact, it's safe
to say as you and I drive home from this
session this week we will pass many of these
workers. And as many cars whiz by them -- not
your car or my car, but as many others drive
quickly by them, we can see what dangerous
work that is by the very nature of it.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Well, Senator,
if your car went by them, I'm sure they'd
observe it. If my car went by them, that
would really increase the need for this
legislation.
So I just wanted to just get from
you if it is the subject of collective
bargaining. In other words, what you're
saying is you want to establish what the
standard is through the legislation and then
the collective bargaining can take place from
there?
SENATOR LEIBELL: I think it is
safe to say what this legislation attempts to
do, recognizing that there will be collective
4358
bargaining, is a recognition of the uniquely
dangerous that work that these highway and
bridge workers do for our state as employees
of DOT.
SENATOR PATERSON: Very well
stated, Senator. If you would yield for one
last question.
SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
my question to -- my final question to Senator
Leibell just involves the delineation of which
employees would be affected by the new
regulation we would be establishing. In other
words, which of our DOT employees, what areas
would you define that they be working in?
SENATOR LEIBELL: To respond,
Senator, there's two pieces of that, one of
which would be, of course, collective
bargaining, which would identify such workers.
But also the commissioner in charge of that
agency would have responsibility for
identifying such workers, working with OER.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
4359
Duane.
SENATOR DUANE: If the sponsor
would yield for a couple of questions.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Leibell, do you yield for a question from
Senator Duane?
SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR DUANE: Thank you,
Mr. President.
Can you tell me what the universe
of people that would be covered by this and
what the low end in a year and the high end of
the number of people would be?
SENATOR LEIBELL: That hasn't
been determined yet.
SENATOR DUANE: If the sponsor
would yield to another question.
SENATOR LEIBELL: Yeah.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Leibell continues to yield.
SENATOR DUANE: If you could just
maybe give me the broadest possible
guesstimate. I mean, are we talking 5,000?
4360
Are we talking 500? I'm just trying to find
the range.
SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator Duane,
it's hard for me right now to respond to that.
I can't tell how many people DOT has out there
in the work force right now, today, who are
doing this type of job. And I'm sure the
number fluctuates.
This is more of a recognition
that -- it could be a large number, it could
be a small number. But it's more of a
recognition of the dangerous nature of the
work these public employees do.
SENATOR DUANE: I just want to
get a clarification from the sponsor, Mr.
President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Leibell, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes, I do.
SENATOR DUANE: You said you
didn't know at this time.
SENATOR LEIBELL: No, I don't
know right now.
SENATOR DUANE: Through you,
Mr. President.
4361
Could you tell me where else in
state government this kind of hazardous-duty
differential is being provided?
SENATOR LEIBELL: At what other
agencies? I'm not -- I'm not in a position to
answer which other agencies may have it. I'm
not sure if the State Police, for instance,
have something for a unique assignment. I'm
not familiar with that.
SENATOR DUANE: I'm very sorry,
Mr. President, I was unable to hear the
response. I just -- I don't know why.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Leibell, could you repeat your response?
SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes. I'm not
familiar with -- there is the capacity to
negotiate these in contracts, but I'm not
familiar today as to which ones they're in.
SENATOR DUANE: Then if I may ask
another question, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Leibell, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
4362
SENATOR DUANE: I'm wondering
where -- as opposed to through collective
bargaining, but through legislation -
hazardous pay has been provided, in which
agencies and with which duties hazardous pay
is being provided because of legislative
action.
SENATOR LEIBELL: This is the
only place legislatively that I'm aware of
that it would be done.
SENATOR DUANE: If it were to be
passing today.
SENATOR LEIBELL: Yes.
SENATOR DUANE: Thank you,
Mr. President. Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 51.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
4363
Senator Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
can we at this time take up Calendar Number
1219.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read Calendar 1219.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1219, substituted earlier today by Member of
the Assembly Koon, Assembly Print Number 3030,
an act in relation to permitting.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: There is
a home rule message at the desk.
Read the last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 52.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
Senator Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Can we stand at
ease, please, for just a few minutes,
Mr. President.
4364
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senate will stand at ease.
Senator Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
would you recognize Senator McGee for a
motion.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
McGee.
SENATOR McGEE: On page Number
11, I offer the following amendments to
Calendar Number 347, Senate Print Number
3396A, and ask that said bill retain its place
on the Third Reading Calendar.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendments are received, and the bill will
retain its place on the Third Reading
Calendar.
SENATOR McGEE: Thank you,
Mr. President.
(Whereupon, the Senate stood at
ease at 11:40 a.m.)
(Whereupon, the Senate reconvened
at 11:48 a.m.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Bruno.
4365
SENATOR BRUNO: Can we at this
time return to reports of standing committees.
I believe there's a report at the
desk from the Finance Committee.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Reports
of standing committees.
The Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
from the Committee on Finance, reports the
following nominations:
As Commissioner of Agriculture and
Markets, Nathan L. Rudgers, of Burnt Hills.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: It is a
pleasure to yield to the Majority Leader for
this very fine nomination.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Thank you very
much, Senator Stafford, Mr. President.
We're very fortunate, and I am
pleased to rise and speak on behalf of a
constituent of the 43rd Senatorial District,
Nathan Rudgers, who is the present Acting
4366
Commissioner of Ag and Markets. A highly
qualified individual, a credit to the
Governor, and will be a credit to all the
people of this state.
He was raised on a 500-acre farm, a
cash crop farm. He knows what it's all about.
He spearheaded efforts on behalf of the
Governor and the people of this state in
creating increased revenues, jobs worldwide
for New York State products. He is nationally
recognized as providing the leadership for
Governor Pataki's Agricultural Environmental
Management Program and helping farmers comply
with state and federal water protection acts.
He implemented the programs funded by the
Governor's Clean Water, Clean Air Bond Act.
He executed the Governor's Farmland Protection
Program, 17 million in grants to help preserve
farmland. He directed the New York State Ag
Quality Assurance Program, to reduce
ag-related food-borne illnesses. He served as
a leader on the Governor's Dairy Task Force.
He is married to his wife, Nancy,
for the last 16 years. He has three children
in Burnt Hills, the Ballston Lake schools. He
4367
is a graduate of Cornell University.
And, Mr. President and colleagues,
I am proud to support such a capable,
qualified individual who already has
distinguished himself as a real public servant
to the people of New York State.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Farley.
SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you,
Mr. President.
I'm pleased to rise to second the
nomination of this outstanding candidate. Our
Governor himself was a farmer, grew up on a
farm, and has a tremendous interest in
agriculture. And I think it's rather
significant that he picked somebody that is so
eminently qualified as this young man -- and
he is a young man.
As Senator Bruno said, he grew up
on a farm, was educated at Cornell University,
in their agriculture program, and -- one of
the finest schools in the world -- and is
somebody that has truly distinguished himself
in this area of agriculture. And has served
as Deputy Commissioner and First Executive
4368
Commissioner and so forth.
I think you're well qualified to
take over one of the most important industries
in this state. Agriculture is a
wealth-producing industry, something that New
York is very, very proud of. And I'm sure
that we're going to go to great heights under
your leadership, and I wish you well in your
tenure.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Hoffmann.
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you,
Mr. President.
I'm very pleased to support and
second the nomination of Nathan Rudgers today.
He has demonstrated his ability to reach out
to people across this state. I think
indicative of that was a very gracious letter
he sent to every member of the Senate offering
to meet personally to discuss his vision for
agriculture going into the next millennium.
He has demonstrated the same type of outreach
and willingness to learn from others in
virtually every capacity of agriculture in
this state.
4369
Organizations like the New York
State Grange, certainly the Farm Bureau,
people who are in preeminent positions at
Cornell have all written lauding his unique
accomplishments and capabilities to fulfill
this task.
I've enjoyed the opportunity to
visit with Nathan in my office on several
occasions, and I'm confident that this choice
of a new commissioner by Governor Pataki is
going to bring New York State agriculture to a
new high. Not only is it New York State's
number-one industry today, but it is one of
the most promising industries for all of our
economic development opportunities in the
years ahead.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Excuse
me, Senator Hoffmann.
Can we have some order in the
chamber? If you have a conversation, take it
outside.
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Hoffmann.
4370
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Nathan Rudgers
recognizes that economic development
opportunities abound within the field of
agriculture.
And he is already engaged in active
discussions with Empire State Development
Corporation and with many of the regional
economic development programs that we fund
through the state and at the local level. It
is this type of networking, it is this
understanding that is going to allow him to
direct this very, very important agency in a
way that it has never been directed before.
Not only that, Nathan understands
that farms are in varied sizes and many, many
different forms of agriculture in this state.
There are those who have been involved in the
department before who were sometimes not clear
about the very significant role of the small
farms. There were some people in previous
administrations who did not understand the
significance of cattle farming and whose focus
was primarily dairy.
We are, of course, the third
largest dairy-producing state in all of the
4371
United States, but we are also a growing
cattle-production region. We are growing in
the areas of horticulture. We are growing in
the areas of manufactured product from the
dairy industry. We are an extremely
diversified agriculture, probably more
diversified than any other state in the
nation.
It is a very, very great task that
lies ahead for this commissioner. But I
believe that he is capable of the job, and I
applaud Governor Pataki for selecting him.
And I look forward to working with him in the
years ahead. Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Wright.
SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you,
Mr. President.
I too rise to second the nomination
of Nathan Rudgers and to commend the Governor
on the recommendation that he has sent the
Senate.
I had the occasion to spend a fair
amount of January one year with Nathan in the
North Country as our agriculture community
4372
struggled to deal with the impacts of the ice
storm. And Nathan became a regular visitor to
the North Country and was instrumental in
leading the agency and working through the
impacts for the dairy industry. So I've seen
firsthand the crisis management that he can
bring to the job, and I anticipate that in
calmer times that same kind of skill will
serve him well as commissioner.
More importantly, we've had the
opportunity to have conversations not only
between Nathan and myself but with members of
the agricultural community in my district.
And they have a strong regard for his
understanding of the need to diversify
agriculture in this state and to ensure that
we pursue new enterprises, and that in fact we
give the agricultural community the
opportunity to be equally as entrepreneurial
as the other elements of our private sector in
this state.
And that with a commissioner that
understands that and provides that kind of
leadership, I think we can continue to see
agriculture maintain its primary role as the
4373
number-one industry in this state but also to
expand and grow that industry.
So I would encourage all of my
colleagues today to follow suit of the Ag
Committee and to join in making the
confirmation of Nathan Rudgers as commissioner
a reality this afternoon.
Nathan, congratulations.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stachowski.
SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. Presid
ent, I too would like to rise to second the
nomination of Nathan Rudgers.
I think that -- I had the
opportunity to meet with him earlier this year
before he was ever being considered, and I
found him to be very informative. And I know
that he's done a great job in his previous
position.
I know that having grown up in
agriculture and having been educated in
agriculture, he will do a great job as
commissioner. I look forward to working with
him in the future as the ranker on
agriculture.
4374
I think that he will give us the
kind of leadership we need to move on into the
next decade, and he'll just do a wonderful
job. And I think it's a great appointment by
the Governor.
THE SECRETARY: Senator
DeFrancisco.
SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I also rise
to support the nominee.
It's interesting the support that
you have, bipartisan support, people from
throughout this state rising on your behalf.
And what I think is particularly
significant here is that this individual rose
through the ranks in this particular
department and earned this position, earned
this position because of the wonderful job he
has done.
There's another reason why I'm
rising and why I supported this nomination
from the first moment I learned that he was
involved in it and that he was interested in
it. It is because we have in my district the
great New York State Fair. And I understand
how important it is to our local economy and
4375
how he believes that this state fair is bigger
and better and it will continue to grow under
his leadership.
So for all the reasons already
discussed and for the reasons I raised, I'm
very proud to support him. And I know he's
going to do a wonderful job for this state, as
he has done in the past.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Mendez.
SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you,
Mr. President.
I also rise to congratulate
Governor Pataki for submitting this
outstanding candidate for the position of
Commissioner of Agriculture.
I met with Nathan Rudgers earlier.
We discussed various topics. And the thing
that impresses me the most about him is that
it's not only that he knows every aspect of
agriculture and where this entire industry
should be taken to in the new millennium, but
the fact that impresses me the most is that
being so articulate and so bright, he is also,
Mr. President, a consensus-builder. And
4376
people who are that way and do have incredible
people skills are able to motivate others to
work towards a specific goal.
So again, I feel privileged to
stand up and second his nomination. And I
again congratulate once more the Governor for
submitting -- choosing him for this position.
You deserve it. Congratulations.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Kuhl.
SENATOR KUHL: Yes,
Mr. President. I rise to second the
nomination of Nathan Rudgers.
I just wanted to say Nathan,
congratulations. I appreciate the fact that
you're willing to take on this responsibility,
and it is a tremendous responsibility.
I had the good fortune, as all of
you know, to chair the Senate Agriculture
Committee for 12 years and just was reassigned
to another post this last January. During
that time, Nathan was -- he not only had to
deal with me, from Steuben County, he had to
deal with the commissioner, who was from
Steuben County. So he had two Steuben
4377
Countyites who at times were rather
opinionated and very straightforward in our
discussions. So anybody who can put up with
that experience certainly can put up with most
anything in New York State.
So, Nathan, congratulations on your
appointment. I look forward to working with
you. And I know that you'll do an outstanding
job between in the agricultural arena and
certainly in the agricultural industry here in
New York.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any
other Senator wish to be heard on the
nomination?
The question is on the confirmation
of Nathan Rudgers as Commissioner of
Agriculture of the State of New York. All in
favor signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Nathan
Rudgers is hereby confirmed as Commissioner of
Agriculture of the State of New York.
4378
Commissioner Rudgers is with us
today in the gallery, along with his wife,
Nancy.
Commissioner, on behalf of the
Senate, welcome and Godspeed with your very
important duties.
(Applause.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will continue to read.
THE SECRETARY: As Commissioner
of Human Rights, Jerome H. Blue, Ph.D., of
Freeport.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
it's a pleasure to yield for this fine
nomination to the Senator from the Eighth
District, Senator Fuschillo.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Fuschillo.
SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you,
Mr. President.
It's an honor for me to rise to
second the nomination of an individual from my
district who has dedicated his life to public
4379
service.
Dr. Blue is the president and chief
operating officer of the Roosevelt Island
Corporation. And during his tenure there, he
has initiated sweeping changes to reverse a
deficit there and let them be self-sufficient.
He has been awarded the prestigious
Congressional Science and Engineering
Fellowship sponsored by the Society for
Research in Child Development and the American
Association for the Advancement of Science.
Prior to joining the Roosevelt
Island Operating Corporation, he was the vice
president for research and program development
at the New York State Housing Finance
Committee. He was a member of the Associated
Medical Schools of New York, a member of
Minority Advisory Board.
I am confident that Dr. Blue will
bring -- find the necessary balance and
sensitivity for the Commissioner of Human
Rights, and I wish you well and lots of
success in your new appointment.
And I want to compliment the
Governor on such a distinguished individual
4380
who has really dedicated his life to public
service.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any
other Senator wish to be heard on the
nomination?
The question is on the -- I'm
sorry, Senator, how could I not see you?
Senator Mendez.
SENATOR MENDEZ: Thank you,
Mr. President.
I also want to rise in support of
the confirmation of Dr. Blue, who I -- he's
not my constituent; however, he's been working
in an area of my district, as the president
and chief executive officer of the Roosevelt
Island Corporation. And during the time that
he's been there, as it was noted earlier, he's
done an extraordinary job. He's a very, very
skillful administrator and always willing to
cooperate with people and always trying to get
people to work together to achieve aims that
are needed for the organization.
So again, I want to congratulate
Governor Pataki for submitting his nomination
and I am sure that Dr. Blue will do an
4381
excellent job as the new Commissioner of the
Human Rights Commission.
Thank you, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Any
other Senators wish to be heard on the
nomination?
The question is on the confirmation
of Jerome Blue as Commissioner of Human
Rights. All those in favor signify by saying
aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Jerome
Blue is hereby confirmed as Commissioner of
Human Rights.
Commissioner Blue is with us today
in the gallery. And I wish you well with your
duties and extend greetings from the Senate.
(Applause.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will continue to read.
THE SECRETARY: As a member of
the Adirondack Park Agency, James T. Townsend,
4382
Esquire, of Rochester.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Move
confirmation, please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the confirmation of James T.
Townsend as a member of the Adirondack Park
Agency. All those in favor signify by saying
aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: James T.
Townsend is confirmed as a member of the
Adirondack Park Agency.
The Secretary will continue to
read.
THE SECRETARY: As a member of
the New York State Bridge Authority, James P.
Sproat, of LaGrangerville.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Move
4383
confirmation, please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the confirmation of James P.
Sproat as a member of the New York State
Bridge Authority. All those in favor signify
by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: James
Sproat is confirmed as a member of the New
York State Bridge Authority.
The Secretary will continue to
read.
THE SECRETARY: As a member of
the Ogdensburg Bridge and Port Authority,
Patrick E. Hackett, Sr., of Ogdensburg.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Move
confirmation, please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the confirmation of Patrick
Hackett as a member of the Ogdensburg Bridge
4384
and Port Authority. All those in favor
signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
nominee is confirmed.
The Secretary will continue to
read.
THE SECRETARY: As members of the
Small Business Advisory Board, William
Hockenberger, of Penfield, and Emma Kounine,
of Mahopac.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Move
confirmation, please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the confirmation of William
Hockenberger and Emma Kounine as members of
the Small Business Advisory Board. All in
favor signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
4385
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
nominees are confirmed.
The Secretary will continue to
read.
THE SECRETARY: As a member of
the Board of Visitors of the New York State
Home for Veterans and Their Dependents at St.
Albans, Evelyne Jeanniton, M.D., of Bayside.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Move
confirmation.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the confirmation of Evelyne
Jeanniton as a member of the Board of Visitors
of the New York State Home for Veterans and
Their Dependents at St. Albans. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Opposed,
nay.
(No response.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
4386
nominee is confirmed.
The Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford,
from the Committee on Finance, reports the
following bills:
Senate Print 1600A, Budget Bill, an
act making appropriations for the support of
government, legislative and judiciary budget;
Senate Print 5833, by the Senate
Committee on Rules, an act making
appropriations for the support of government;
And Senate Print 5835, by the
Senate Committee on Rules, an act to amend the
Education Law and Chapter 756 of the Laws of
1992.
All bills ordered direct to third
reading.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: All
bills directly to third reading.
Senator Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
can we return to the controversial calendar
and call up Calendar 1215.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will return to the controversial
4387
calendar and will read Calendar 1215.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1215, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 3A, an
act in relation to enacting the Jobs 2000 for
New York State Act.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Bruno.
SENATOR BRUNO: Mr. President,
the legislation before us continues the
partnership that this house has had with
Governor George Pataki to help move this
economy in New York State forward, to create
jobs and to keep the people of this state
prospering.
What's before us we refer to as
Jobs 2000, J2K. J2K has several parts to it.
But before we talk about the specifics, I'd
like to speak generally as to why New York
State has to focus on making this state now
more competitive with so many of the other
states that have been spending hundreds of
millions of dollars in high technology,
research, high technology, biomedical
research.
The University of California gets
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about a billion and a half dollars with
'86-'87 -- or '96-'97 numbers. SUNY Albany
and SUNY New York has been getting in the
neighborhood of $445 million in research. The
Health Institute has a pot of money. It grew
from 2½ billion to over 8½ billion. New York
State lost 27 percent of their share.
In California, with all the
research that takes place, there are over
2,000 jobs created around the university
system. In Massachusetts, our neighbor, there
are 4,000-plus companies that are created as a
result of their investment in high technology
and in research.
So New York State has to catch up.
We are lagging behind. We are losing ground.
There's a huge universe of research dollars
out there. It is mind-boggling when we talk
about the tens of billions of dollars that
government and industry spends on research.
J2K is aimed directly at we in New
York State participating in that huge resource
that's out there. And the large part of this
program -- and by the way, the entire dollar
amount is well over $800 million in this
4389
program. 75 percent of the money is already
within the state, within the budget. It has
to be reallocated so that we get a more direct
result in terms of economic development and
job creation.
The first part of this calls for
consolidating many of the departments that
have to do with companies here in New York
State in the high tech industry into one
Office of Higher Education Technology, moving
many of the resources out of the Education
Department that relate to this, moving out of
the -- we're moving science and technology out
of Economic Development Corporation and
combining those with other places where people
now have to go, the six or eight different
places, to get help to get direction, into one
office. That office will be governed by a
board appointed by the Governor, by the
Majority in the Assembly and this house.
The bottom line is that it will
help us get some of the greatest research
brains in the country. And where the greatest
researchers are, that's where the dollars
flow. So New York State has been losing
4390
ground to California, Massachusetts, Texas and
other states because we aren't able to compete
and pay the talent that it takes to bring them
to New York State.
And when you bring the talent here
and to help get them here, you have to have
world-class facilities. So we're talking
about $10 million going to enhance the CAT
program that's established, Centers for
Advanced Technology. We're talking about
technology transfer with millions of dollars
so that when research takes place, it
transfers into jobs. We're talking about all
of the things that are necessary to build
world-class research facilities and directing
dollars to do that.
Secondly, New York State spends
over a billion dollars in training people. We
spend most of the money on people who are
unemployed. We talk about redeploying many of
those dollars in the Employment Readiness Act,
which is part of J2K. And in the Employment
Readiness Act, we can retrain people who
become, in terms of their ability, obsolete as
technology moves forward. And those dollars
4391
will be directed to retrain people to help
them retain the jobs that they already have.
As ludicrous as it appears, now a
company is better off firing someone, laying
them off, dismissing them and then getting
assistance in hiring new people off welfare or
who have been unemployed for months or years
and training them with government dollars. So
the Employment Readiness Act corrects that.
Delphi Harrison, receiving about
$19 million to retrain people so they can stay
in the western part of the state where they
employ 6,000 people, they're investing
$350 million. That's what we're talking
about.
Another part of this is called
Pipeline for Jobs. High tech industries use a
lot of fresh water. This redirects over a
$100 million of revolving loan funds combined
between the government and industry to get
fresh water into places where it now doesn't
exist, for drinking and for manufacturing
purposes.
A chip fab plant takes like
6 million gallons of water a day. We've got
4392
to do that if we're going to compete with the
other states that are attracting chip fab
plants. Chip fab plants can employ 2,000
people, and then other businesses surround
them. We are now competitive, and we've got
to finish what it takes to help us attract
these jobs and these facilities.
Another part of the program is
called the Entrepreneurialship Venture
Capital. The entrepreneurialship consists of
about $4 million being directed, starting in
grammar school through high school into
college, to help people get into business for
themselves. Many people go into business,
they don't have a clue on what the jeopardy
is, what the pitfalls are, and 90 percent of
the businesses fail.
So this starts to train young
people, ends up with a degree, for the first
time -- at Empire State College and others -
in entrepreneurship, a bachelor's degree in
entrepreneurship. We think it's an integral
part of all that takes place in this plan.
And the last part of it is a
venture capital piece. We are directing, with
4393
the public pension funds in this state, a
$250 million pot for venture capital companies
that want to originate or grow in New York
State. There's 150 million now in private
insurance companies and banks that's
available. So this -- and we continue that -
this becomes about a $400 million resource.
Because when companies want to start in the
high tech area, when they want to grow, they
need venture capital money.
What better use can public pension
funds be put to than to help create jobs by
the thousands here in New York State? Those
funds now, over a hundred billion dollars'
worth, are invested all over the world. Other
states and other countries benefit from the
investment that's made by our public employees
and their own pension funds.
So we're saying it's time now to
redirect those funds, a small portion of
them -- $250 million is a small portion of a
billion -- I think the fund is about a
billion -- what, 15 -- $115 billion, something
in that neighborhood. The number is so
staggering I can hardly get it out. Much more
4394
than our budget. Almost twice what our budget
is.
So I am saying to my colleagues, to
you, that it is time now for us to put our
minds and our hearts together and do this.
This is not posturing. This is not politics.
This plan was put together with the resources
from the university, from private colleges,
from the Business Council, from individual
businesses in a reaction to what they have
told us that we need in this state to be
competitive.
So, Mr. President and my
colleagues, I ask you to support this and to
help, with your support, move this through the
Assembly. Because I know that the Speaker has
had a positive reaction, as many of his
colleagues have. And the Governor has had a
positive reaction.
Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Thank you,
Mr. President.
I rise again, as I have on several
4395
occasions, to congratulate our Majority
Leader, as I had in the legislation that we
passed in this body that led up to the
creation of the STAR program, the legislation
that created college savings plan that
Kiplinger's rated as the number-one plan in
our country. And I rise again today to
compliment the Majority Leader.
And for those who were listening,
the Majority Leader spoke without any notes,
extemporaneously, on something that has been
very, very important to him, and he has worked
in a hands-on way in the creation of this
legislation.
Senator Bruno and I have for a
period of twenty years been interested in the
marriage of higher education and business.
And over the years, we've been involved in the
creation of the program the Centers of
Advanced Technology, the creation of getting
those centers and the research institutions to
get involved in attracting businesses in and
around and create technology parks.
There is one Senator's district in
North Greenbush, and RPI is a Center of
4396
Advanced Technology. There's one that exists
at Stony Brook, and Stony Brook is a Center
for Advanced Technology, and the technology
park in and around that university. And we
can look across the state in efforts where we
are leveraging the intellectual resources, the
fiscal and the physical resources of our state
in a marriage between higher education and
business.
J2K is now one other step to bring
a focus -- and by the way, if everyone was as
focused as our Majority Leader, who can be
like a laser beam when he focuses on a topic,
New York State will be -- or should have been
and will be the number-one state in attracting
research dollars both at a federal level and
at the corporate level.
And that was one of the questions
that Senator Bruno and I asked at the
beginning of this venture many, many months
ago. And by the way, J2K was not created in a
matter of weeks but over many months -
probably an eight-, ten-month period of
research, development between staffs who have
been focused on this issue at his direction.
4397
And so we are creating something
very, very special here today, as the Majority
Leader outlined for you: specific pots of
money to deal with the retention and
attracting of the best and brightest faculty
across our nation, to make sure when a
university has a best and brightest professor,
that that best and brightest professor will
have the physical resources to create what it
is that they are involved in, to provide
incentives for the Centers of Advanced
Technology.
But this is more than the marriage
of higher education and business. It brings a
focus by creating an Office of Higher
Education and Technology, so that there will
not be pieces in the State Ed Department and
pieces in Economic Development, but there will
be one council and one staff whose purpose
shall be to enhance the higher education and
economic development strategies for this
state, so that we can compete with
Massachusetts, we can compete with California,
North Carolina, and other areas of the state,
that we will take pieces in the education and
4398
training parts, from contract courses and
other pieces, to make sure that the
corporations of our state are having a trained
work force to be able to compete with other
areas of the state.
So this is both a congratulatory
speech for our Majority Leader, who has been
just absolutely incredible on this
legislation, but, more importantly, to let
everyone know that with the passage of this
act, we are creating an economic development
strategy that will be second to none in these
United States.
Thank you, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Lachman.
SENATOR LACHMAN: Yes. Will the
distinguished chairman of the Higher Education
Committee yield to a question or two, sir?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you yield to a question from
Senator Lachman?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
4399
SENATOR LACHMAN: Thank you.
I also commend this bill, which is
long overdue. And as you said, other states,
such as North Carolina and Governor Hunt, have
pioneered in the area of higher education and
technology, and I look forward to progress in
this area in New York State.
My concern, Senator, is what
relationship will this division have with the
State Education Department and the
Commissioner of Education and their excellent
goals for the future? Because as we all know,
this Commissioner of Education has emphasized
goals that we can all be proud of in terms of
uplifting the entire educational structure of
the State of New York.
Will there be a direct relationship
to the State Education Department? And I
appreciate your response to that.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, one of
the things that you have heard me talk about
many, many times is that the State Education
Department, and specifically the Board of
Regents, has an enormous number of areas that
they are responsible for -- elementary and
4400
secondary education, higher education, the
professions, the libraries, the museums, the
archives.
And so what we are doing here today
is we are saying that we need to bring
together under one tent the focus of higher
education and economic development. We are
moving, as Senator Bruno has indicated, the
Science and Technology Foundation in and under
the council, the Office of Higher Education
and Technology, as we are with contract
courses and the small business development
centers and on and on, so that we have one
focus.
That has not been happening. It
has been in various agencies and various
pieces. The way we chose to bridge, to make
sure that there was input, was the
representation on the board, so that we
understood what was taking place within the
State University, what was taking place in the
State Education Department. And through those
representatives on the council, and the office
is beneath the council, that we would be able
to use whatever resources that we needed.
4401
Because, as you well know, there
has -- recently we are talking about this
seamless program from K to 16. And so
elementary and secondary and what's going on
as we train our young people is equally as
important. And that will come through the
council down into the Office of Higher
Education.
I just wanted -- as I said, that
there's representation on the board from the
Board of Regents, from the State University
and so forth, independent sector colleges, so
that we're using all of the resources and
getting the input.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
Mr. President.
I rise -- I'm going to vote in
favor of this proposal, Mr. President. But
there are three things that I would just like
to air as concerns that I hope, if we get to a
conference committee on the Jobs 2000
proposal, will be considered.
First of all, I listened
4402
attentively when Senator LaValle talked about
the marriage of higher education and
technology. I think that's a good idea too.
But I think after the marriage occurs, it
ought to have the same home it's had before.
And I think that home is clearly in the
Department of Education and not creating a new
umbrella agency.
I think the last thing, we all
agree, that we need in this state is another
new agency. Why not leave it that the
Department of Education where it belongs? I
know this commissioner has been a driving
force about trying to make that marriage work,
sometimes with reluctant or at times
incompatible partners at the table. But the
home for this new married couple ought to be
in the Department of Education, so that the
education of our children and the education of
young adults focuses on that technology. We
don't need to create a new agency for that.
Leave it in the Department of Education.
Secondly, the venture capital fund,
which is a great idea to use the pension funds
of the State of New York, which is very
4403
sizable -- as Senator Bruno said, almost
incomprehensible in size -- not a bad idea to
have a venture capital fund in there.
I understand that this comptroller
has one, that it's worked pretty well. I
don't know why we would again direct him to do
this when it's something he's already doing
and he's got the vested discretion given to
him by the people of the State of New York to
make those judgments. I would suggest it's a
good idea. I hope, if it finally comes to
pass, we leave that discretion firmly in place
with the comptroller.
And lastly, I was a little bit
nervous, Mr. President, about Senator Bruno's
comment with respect to the pure waters
portion of this, the idea that we're going to
take our water resources and take them to the
chip plants. I would just suggest to the
Majority Leader and to all of my colleagues
that that's backwards.
We have water resources and the
ability to deliver water in the major cities
of this state. And I would suggest that what
we ought to do as our strategy is instead of
4404
saying "Build your chip plant in the middle of
nowhere in this state and we'll bring the
water to you," instead, tell the chip
manufacturers to build where the
infrastructure's already been invested in.
That would be in places like the city of
Rochester.
And my concern is we debated with
Senator Rath a sprawl bill, a bill that will
restrict the sprawl, a bill that will bring
the jobs back into the urban communities, a
bill that will bring them back to the
infrastructure that's already present in our
urban areas. It would seem to me that the way
to do this is not to take the water resources
to the chip plants, but instead encourage the
chip plants to locate near the water
resources, where there are available workers,
where there are lots of people who are looking
for the high-paying, $2,000-per-plant jobs
that Senator Bruno is talking about.
We already have that infrastructure
there. I would strongly suggest that the
better planning model is to simply look to
locate those chip plants in the area where
4405
water resources are located and not simply
push the water resources out and sprawl it
out.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Excuse
me, Senator Dollinger.
No? All right, go ahead.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: So that
concludes my -- Mr. President, I'm going to
vote in favor of this, because I think it
needs to be moved to the conference committee.
I do so with those reservations, and I hope
that they'll be considered at that time.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Rath.
SENATOR RATH: Thank you,
Mr. President.
Senator Dollinger alluded to an
issue that's very near and dear to my heart,
this year and next year and probably forever,
the issue on smart growth and economic
competitiveness.
And you spoke about Senator Bruno's
comments about taking water, fresh drinking
water, to places where there is not water now,
so that we can encourage the economic
4406
development that so rightly should be
happening all across New York State.
A county that's near and dear to
both you and me, Genesee County, has adopted a
smart growth strategy in order to develop
where they want to develop, where companies
might feel was appropriate for them without
diluting -- if I can use that word when I talk
about water -- their bang for their buck, if
you will.
I hear you loud and clear about the
old infrastructure and taking the plants to
where the old infrastructure is. But we are
advised with smart growth that very often the
cost of redoing on old infrastructure -- and
I'm not talking about brown fields, I'm
talking about infrastructure -- is more than
going out to a place and running a water line
there in order to get the job done.
I suggest to you, as smart growth
grows up in New York State, we will see
communities telling us which is best for them
and which they need for us to help them with.
What we don't need to do is to mandate to them
how it should be done and where it should be
4407
done. But we need to be a helpful partner for
our communities so that we can attract not
only chip fab plants on fresh-water lines but
a lot of other kinds of businesses to New York
State.
And I'd love to pursue this
conversation with you privately sometime.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Montgomery.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes,
Mr. President. I wonder if the sponsor would
yield for a couple of questions. I guess
Senator Stafford would be the appropriate one.
Or Senator LaValle. That's fine too, because
it's really on higher ed.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you yield to a question from
Senator Montgomery?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes.
Senator LaValle, I note in the legislation
that the new Office of Higher Education and
Technology, it's defined as this new entity
4408
which will result in the transfer of certain
functions from the Science and Technology
Foundation, transfer of certain functions of
State University of New York and City
University, Higher Education Economic
Development Program, and so forth and so on.
So the council, this new council
that we're setting up, essentially removes
higher education as a function of state
education, into -- as a new entity. We're
developing a new higher education entity; is
that correct?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, in
answer to the question that Senator Lachman
had asked, one of the problems that we have in
New York State, as opposed to other states, we
have a State University system, and it has a
board. We have a City University system, and
it has a board. We have a Board of Regents
that has -- that is an educational
policy-making function for both elementary and
secondary and higher education. And of course
there is our Board of Regents.
That is all factionalized, as you
can see. There are three separate boards and
4409
decision-making bodies for higher education.
As well as, as you had indicated, in economic
development. We have the Science and
Technology Foundation. In SUNY, we have the
Small Business Development Centers. We have
contract courses in State University.
So what we're doing -- and you're
right -- is we are creating a freestanding
agency, and the agency has a council. And
that council has representation from the State
Education Department, the City University, the
State University, and from the independent
sector. And so we're trying to bring
together, by using representatives from the
various boards onto this council. And beneath
the council is the creation of the Office of
Higher Education and Technology that will
actually be the staff-driven body after the
policy is made by the council.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: So the
answer to my question is that we are in fact
creating an entirely new entity for higher
education?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, that is
correct. Yes, that is correct.
4410
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: All right -
SENATOR LAVALLE: In regard to
the scope, the duties and powers that are -
would be articulated.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: And the
Commissioner of Education has no function or
role in this -
SENATOR LAVALLE: In higher
education, that is correct. That is correct.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. Now,
the membership you talk about, we will have
membership from SUNY and CUNY and wherever.
But as I read in the legislation, there are
seven members that are specifically directly
appointed by the Governor and four members
appointed by the Legislature, two from this
house and two from the other house.
Okay. So in fact, this new council
is controlled by the Governor, and the
Governor selects the chairperson of this
council.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. Yes.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. Now,
the other question -
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
4411
Montgomery, do you wish Senator LaValle to
continue to yield?
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes, if he
would continue to yield.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Does the
Senator yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Now, under
powers and duties of the new council, it says
on page 16, line 22, that the council shall be
responsible for, one, assessing, reviewing and
recommending higher educational policy, to
ensure that the system of higher education
continues to meet all of the higher education
needs of the state, as defined by the council.
The council defines now what are
the needs of the state and the higher
education -
SENATOR LAVALLE: Correct.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Okay. It
also administers financial aid and scholarship
programs, except for those administered under
HESC.
SENATOR LAVALLE: That is
correct.
4412
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: And it also
ensures that planning government and
management practices in the higher education
community are effective.
So essentially, it is now the
council which will define the goals and
objectives and needs of higher education as it
relates to the state, and that seems to be
driven by business and technology.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Let me -- let
me -- the answer certainly is that we -- as I
have indicated several times, we want to marry
higher education and technology -
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I
understand, yes.
SENATOR LAVALLE: -- and
business. But higher education in this state
is not housed really under one roof. We have
a SUNY board. We have a CUNY board. We have
the Commission of Independent Colleges and
Universities that deal with -- and it's a
statutory creation -- that deal with the
advocacy for our independent colleges, our
private colleges.
Now, as it exists today, master
4413
planning is done in the State Education
Department. So that means that any college,
SUNY, SUNY Buffalo, wants to amend -- put in a
new program, they have to go to the State
Education Department. State Education
Department has no representation from the
State University. If City University wants to
add a program, they must go to the Board of
Regents.
Under this council, there is
representation from CUNY, there is
representation from SUNY, there is
representation from the independent -
Commission of Independent Colleges and
Universities. And so here we are actually
giving broader representation in terms of
points of view on higher education than
currently exist.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you.
Mr. President, one last question,
if Senator LaValle would continue to yield.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes. Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
4414
Senator yields.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Senator
LaValle, there are two areas that -
unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to read
through the entire part of the bill. But I'm
just wondering how does -
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, this
is a 160-page bill. So that I compliment you
on having read what you've read.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: I just want
to ask you, one of the important areas in
higher education has been traditionally, in
this state, equal opportunity programs for
people who need a little bit additional
assistance to just the straight-out financial
assistance. So I'm just wondering how that
would work under the council.
And, two, part of the mission of
universities in this state has been also the
research aspect. I'm just wondering what
happens with that and who makes the decision
about what research is important and how that
would be treated in terms of funding vis-a-vis
the council -- that the council will make the
decision for the university as to what's going
4415
to be important in terms of research?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as you
know, this Legislature has created the
opportunity programs. I myself and
Assemblyman Eve have been the sponsor of the
Professional Opportunity Program called POPS,
the Step program, the C Step program. And
many others, members here, have sponsored
legislation.
We fund those programs through the
budget process each and every year. This
Legislature ensures, through the budget
process, that these programs are properly
funded, because of the involvement of this
house and the Assembly. That would not change
at all under this legislation. That process,
in terms of the budget and the funding of
those programs, would continue as it has in
many years.
I think Senator Dollinger put it
aptly, that we are creating a new house. And
sometimes being in a new house is not such a
bad thing. It brings a new sense of vitality
and creativity and involvement. So that would
not change.
4416
In terms of research, certainly
this goes to really the heart of what we're
trying to do. Because those functions are in
the State Ed Department, at SUNY, at CUNY and
Economic Development. And we're trying to
make sure that this state gets its fair share,
and maybe more, in terms of research dollars
in Washington and research dollars from our
corporations that contribute a great deal to
research done within our universities.
And certainly we believe that this
is the best approach, to have one body whose
sole focus and mission is to try and have a
strategy that will bring us the greatest
number of dollars. Right now we're losing to
California, Massachusetts, North Carolina. We
are the Empire State, and I believe this
legislation would make us the Empire State in
terms of research dollars.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Thank you,
Mr. President.
I certainly wholeheartedly agree
with Senator LaValle and the Majority Leader
that we need to tie higher education, those
institutions, much more closely to our
4417
economic development in our state. I think,
however, that this legislation, if enacted
into law and signed by the Governor, would
essentially dismantle the higher education
system as we know it and create something that
I'm not so sure protects all of the interests
that we have in terms of the mission of higher
education.
And it is so -- so important,
because it is through the institutions of
higher education in our state that people have
an opportunity to move from poverty to middle
class and beyond. It is the system that
launches people in our world, and especially
in our state and in our nation. And I would
not want us to hastily create a system that
essentially is the political arm of the
Governor.
And not that the Governor would not
do a good job, but I don't think that we
should be putting an institution of such
magnitude and of such significance into a
totally politicized process of
decision-making.
So I'm inclined to vote against
4418
this legislation. And there are so many
things in it that I certainly would like to
support, I think are excellent. But I just
believe that this particular institution is
too, too important for us to decide that we're
going to now totally politicize it because we
think that that suits our needs at the moment.
Thank you, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 51. Nays,
4. Senators Duane, Montgomery, Schneiderman,
and Smith recorded in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
Senator Libous.
SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President,
if I may have unanimous consent to be recorded
in the negative on Calendar Number 1225.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without
4419
objection, Senator Libous will be recorded in
the negative with regard to Calendar 1225.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Mr. President,
if you would call up Calendar Number 1214,
Senate 2A.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Skelos, I didn't see that Senator Wright had
arisen. Can I take him first?
Senator Wright.
SENATOR WRIGHT: Thank you,
Mr. President. I request unanimous consent to
be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number
1235.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without
objection, Senator Wright will be recorded in
the negative on Calendar Number 1235.
The Secretary will read Calendar
1214.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1214, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 2A, an
act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to the
earned income credit.
SENATOR CONNOR: Explanation.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
4420
Stafford, an explanation has been requested of
Section 1214 by the Minority Leader, Senator
Connor.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
again, we're continuing this very, very fine
tax package. This time we're not spending,
we're reducing taxes.
And I won't overdo it today and go
into why we think this is necessary. But you
heard me yesterday. And a number of people
told me after yesterday they had heard enough.
And I understand that, because we always go
into the same -- make the same points.
I believe Senator Connor has -
SENATOR CONNOR: Thank you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Connor.
SENATOR CONNOR: I was tempted
not to speak at all in this entire current
budget exercise, because unfortunately it's
not real, and it just leads to another round
of press releases and whatever. And I know
both houses are going through similar
exercises, and I do wish we were talking about
4421
a real budget. It's already quite overdue.
But I do want to point out that
ideas matter. And I want to compliment the
Majority for never hesitating to borrow good
ideas from the Minority and incorporate them
into their proposals.
Earlier this year, in doing the
budget resolutions, we in the Minority offered
a number of amendments to the Republicans'
proposed tax cut package. One was to repeal
the entire truck mileage tax and remove an
unfair burden that hurt New York, that New
York business.
We pointed out while the Majority
was on the right track in looking for a
tuition tax deduction, that we had a more
uncomplicated and fairer way of doing it as an
adjustment to income, which would benefit more
equitably all New Yorkers, particularly those
who do not itemize, who are -- generally tend
to be lower earners. The Majority has now
adopted that as well as the truck tax.
We have repeatedly over the past
few years in our tax-cut proposals called for
expanding the earned income tax credit. The
4422
Majority has adopted that.
In a rather peculiar note, when we
did the resolution I chided the Majority for
not taking the Governor's approach to reducing
energy taxes, because I thought -- and I
remember saying at the time, even though
there's a partisan divide, I thought the
Governor was on the right track in his
approach to doing this. I compliment the
Majority for taking that suggestion as well.
On the tax-cut front, these are
only the most recent examples of where ideas
advanced by the Minority have been adopted.
We had the STAR reform, the original STAR
bill. We've had college tuition savings
accounts, tax credits for daycare facilities
and some other things that we pointed out from
the old big ugly years ago, which this
Conference opposed, even though the Governor
was then a member of our party.
A couple of things we think are
still wrong. I'm certainly going to vote for
these bills, as I have for the last four years
and most of the members of this conference
had -- at least the ones who are still here -
4423
and vote for the tax cuts overall. But I
think there are some things that are wrong
with it.
We're still backloading, the
Majority is still backloading these tax cuts.
I think we ought to make a bigger down payment
on tax cuts. As best we calculate, you're -
in effect, the Majority is proposing to make a
$263 million down payment, but the ultimate
liability is 1 billion 174. A lot of money
backloaded. A lot of projected deficit
because of this.
And let's not forget we're still
facing the full cost of tax cuts enacted in
the last two or three years. We still haven't
paid the tab on them.
And I know there's a lot of talk, I
read the press releases, the Majority over
here is about a billion dollars in spending
over the Governor. Well, if you add in a
billion dollars in tax cuts, maybe you're
$2 billion over what the Governor says. And
if you're $2 billion over what the Governor
says, and other press releases I read from the
other house talk about dropping somewhere
4424
between a billion and a billion and a half, I
say let's all sit down and talk, because
you're not that far apart, at least on the big
numbers.
We're going to offer once again
some amendments. We want to eliminate that
marriage penalty. We think that reflects best
values that all New Yorkers have. You'll hear
an amendment offered to that effect to this
bill. We think more sales tax reform is
needed, we need to exempt health and safety
items. We'll have an amendment on that.
We should get rid of the turnover
tax on business inputs. That's really
important to New York businesses. And we're
happy to advance that amendment once again as
the pro-business, pro-growth, pro-jobs program
of the Senate Minority. We really think
that's something we can do that will benefit
all New Yorkers. That's a good, sensible,
job-producing kind of tax cut.
We will also offer an amendment to
finish the job on sales tax elimination -- on
the elimination of sales tax on clothing.
Again, farmers. It's good that
4425
we're looking at energy tax relief, but we
will offer an amendment to provide
particularly tax relief to farmers.
And we think while your approach of
an IRA-type savings account for homebuyers is
a good one, we still think that in another
year of surplus we ought to have a suspension,
a moratorium, a holiday on the mortgage
recording tax. Let's, while there's still a
chance, let New York homeowners refinance
their mortgages. Let first-time homebuyers
get in there, make it real attractive.
We've shown you the charts before.
The average homeowner, homebuyer, mortgage
holder, will save about $800 on refinancing,
for example; over the lifetime of a mortgage,
will save thousands of dollars. That's money
they'll plow back into New York's economy.
So we will offer these amendments.
I will be supporting the bills as they are if
the amendments don't succeed. If they
succeed, certainly we can come back in a few
days and pass them in their amended form. And
I do congratulate the Majority for recognizing
some of the good ideas that we advanced. Even
4426
though they unanimously, on a party-vote
basis, voted them down a couple of months ago,
I suspect the result today will be different,
as they've incorporated them into their bills.
Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
Senator Stachowski.
SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. Presid
ent, I believe I have two amendments at the
desk. If we could take them one at a time,
waive the reading and let me say a few words
about them.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stachowski, the amendments are at the desk.
The reading of the amendment -- we'll have to
take them one at a time. We'll take the
first, we'll waive the reading, and you now
have an opportunity to explain your amendment.
SENATOR STACHOWSKI: The first
amendment that I'm taking up is an amendment
that deals with what we refer to as a turnover
tax. It's a sales tax on items or services
used by the businesses in creating their
product or delivering their product.
4427
It's a situation where the New York
State businessperson is taxed twice on the
delivery of their product. It gives an
automatic advantage to out-of-state producers
of the same item. And it's something that all
economists that specialize in the study of
sales tax policy universally agree that it's a
bad feature of most sales tax policy and it's
something that should be removed.
So that's basically what this tax
does. It's an idea that has already caught
the interest of the Business Council. As a
matter of fact, it's an idea they liked so
much that they couldn't understand how they
didn't think of it. And we're just happy that
we did think of it, and we'd like to move this
amendment at this time.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the amendment. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
SENATOR PATERSON: Party vote in
the affirmative.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Party vote
in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
4428
Secretary will call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 22. Nays,
33. Party vote.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendment fails.
Senator Stachowski.
SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Maybe I
shouldn't be so brief on the next one. It
might have a little better chance.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: We could
read it, if you like.
SENATOR STACHOWSKI: (Laughing.)
No. Again, I'd like to waive the reading and
I'd like to say a few words.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
reading of the amendment is waived, and you're
recognized now to explain the amendment.
SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you,
Mr. President.
This amendment deals with a 5
percent credit against the cost of energy
purchased by farmers in the production of
their farm commodities. Obviously, farming is
a hands-on, labor-intensive industry. It also
4429
is very affected by the various utility rates
and energy rates that they face. And this
5 percent credit would go a great way in
helping them out and making them more
competitive in the market they face today.
Obviously a similar bill was moved
by the Senate Minority in the past. We think
it was a great idea then, and we like the idea
now, and we move the amendment.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the amendment. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
SENATOR PATERSON: Party vote in
the affirmative.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Party vote
in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 22. Nays,
33. Party vote.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendment fails.
Senator Dollinger.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me, I
4430
yield to Senator Gentile. Excuse me, Mr.
President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Gentile.
SENATOR GENTILE: Yes, thank you,
Mr. President. I believe there's an amendment
at the desk.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Yes,
there is.
SENATOR GENTILE: I'd ask that
the reading be waived and you allow me to
explain it.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
reading of the amendment is waived, and you're
now recognized for the purpose of explaining
your amendment.
SENATOR GENTILE: Thank you,
Mr. President.
This amendment would repeal the
sales tax on clothing and footwear effective
January 1st. As you know, many times on this
floor I have advocated for the repeal of the
sales tax on clothing and footwear, and this
amendment would accomplish that very fact.
We in this state have a good
4431
economy. And we often wonder what will keep
this economy moving, what will keep this
economy burning and moving as quickly as
possible. Well, ladies and gentlemen, my
colleagues, this amendment to repeal the sales
tax on clothing and footwear is the economic
octane that we need to keep this economy
moving and growing.
It has been shown by the tax-free
weeks and by all research that repealing the
sales tax on clothing and footwear results in
tremendous increases in economic activity.
That tremendous increase in economic activity
results in the creation of jobs. And the
creation of jobs results in a better and
stronger economy.
This is the octane that we need to
keep our economy moving. And I am so happy to
know and to learn that the New York City
Council and Republican Mayor Rudy Giuliani
have passed in their budget the repeal of the
city sales tax on clothing and footwear
effective January -- December 1st, I believe,
this year. Certainly -- and that's up to
$110, which mimics the state law.
4432
However, I stand shoulder to
shoulder with Mayor Giuliani in advocating
that we repeal the sales tax on clothing and
footwear completely. Our research shows that
the difference between -- the tax revenue
between having a $110 or a $500 limit or
repealing it completely is relatively small.
And having a cap on the sales tax -- on the
repeal would create large administrative
burdens. Whether it be $110 or $500, there
still will be a large administrative burden.
By eliminating and repealing the sales tax on
clothing and shoes completely, we've removed
that administrative burden for retailers in
this state.
I believe that standing shoulder to
shoulder with the Mayor of the City of New
York on this issue points out that this is not
a partisan issue, this is an issue that is
good for our economy, good for our consumers,
and good for the state of New York. I believe
that the Mayor, in proposing the complete
repeal of the sales tax, understands that it
will make New York retailers more competitive
with out-of-state vendors. It makes
4433
clothing -- that is, a necessity, clothing and
footwear -- less burdensome, the buying of
those commodities less burdensome on families
with fixed incomes.
So -- and the other item I must
mention is the fact that with the Internet
sales we are now experiencing, the growing
sales of clothing and shoes through mail-order
and Internet, certain taxes very often cannot
be collected on these in-state vendors, which
creates a competitive disadvantage for those
retailers who have store locations and are
competing now with mail-order sales and
Internet sales, where collecting of tax is
very, very difficult.
We need to level the playing field.
We need to do this now. Our economy points in
that direction. We need to take the next step
and eliminate the sales tax completely. It
would be good -- it's the right thing to do
for our consumers, it's the right thing to do
for our merchants, it's the right thing to do
for our economy, it's the right thing to do
for the state of New York.
So I applaud the Mayor, I applaud
4434
the New York City Council. And I urge this
body to do the very same thing.
Thank you, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the amendment. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
SENATOR PATERSON: Party vote in
the affirmative.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Party vote
in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 22. Nays,
34. Party vote.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendment fails.
Senator Dollinger.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Mr. Preside
nt, I believe there's an amendment at the
desk. I'd waive its reading and ask to be
heard on the amendment.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
reading of the amendment is waived, and you're
recognized for the purpose of explaining the
4435
amendment.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: I greatly
appreciate the fact that Senator Stafford has
walked into the chamber. Because, Senator,
I'm giving you the chance -- this is another
black-fly amendment. This is another chance.
One of those little ideas that we're sending
around and they're buzzing around in the
chamber.
And what happens, has happened, it
appears, in the last couple of years is that
the black flies get swatted down by a denial
of the necessary affirmative votes to be an
amendment to an appropriation bill or, in this
case, a tax bill. But for some reason the
black flies still keep coming.
And, you know, there was a black
fly out there that was buzzing around, and it
was called the earned income tax credit. And
it got swatted down a couple of times, but
then all of a sudden it somehow found its way
onto the Majority side, took a little bite and
left a little mark, and, my gosh, all of a
sudden the earned income tax credit appears as
part of the Majority tax proposal.
4436
And then we did a couple of others.
We did the petroleum business tax for the
trucking industry. We offered that as an
amendment. And it's June, I think the black
flies are out -- Senator Stafford can correct
me if I'm wrong. But this little black fly
buzzed around the state of New York as an idea
engendered by Democrats, got swatted down a
couple of times, there were a couple of
carcasses left on the floor. But sure enough,
that black fly eventually found its way over
to the other side of the aisle, took a little
nick, left a little mark, and, my gosh, now
it's in the tax proposal.
Well, here comes another buzzing
little black fly. Right here up around the
borderline of the Adirondacks, here's another
little black fly -- it's been buzzing around
on this side of the aisle -- that we're going
to send over to the other side and see if it
can evade that big flyswatter. This is the
marriage penalty deduction. This is the
marriage tax.
This is the tax that says if you're
single, you get a certain amount of deduction,
4437
and two single people have the same amount of
deduction, but if you get married, you lose
the benefit of each of you having the single
deduction. You get a smaller standard
deduction. So in essence, what we do is we
take the lives of two people and we say if
they get married, they're going to pay a tax
penalty. Because the deduction, the standard
deduction is worth less to the two of them as
a married couple than it is to the two of them
as individuals.
If you're all about pro-families -
we hear that logic and that discussion on the
floor all the time -- the best way to do it is
to send a message to young couples and
families when they get married that the State
of New York will not impose a tax penalty.
When they say "I do," it doesn't mean "I do
agree to pay more taxes." Let's just let them
say "I do" because they love each other, not
because I will pay more taxes. That's the way
"I do" is now translated from the point of
view of our taxing system. Let's make "I do"
mean "I do," and let's eliminate the fact that
they're going to pay more taxes.
4438
And my only hope is -- I have a
feeling Senator Marcellino or someone on the
other side of the aisle is standing there
poised with that big flyswatter to swat away
that annoying little black fly that comes in
in June when we do budgets in this state. And
I have the feeling that black fly is going to
be swatted down and be laying on the ground.
But I also have a feeling that at some point,
somebody's going to pick up the carcass of
that black fly, put it in their pocket, and
sure enough, next year, maybe the year
following that, when the enlightenment of the
black fly has left its mark on the Republican
Majority, that they will exhume that little
black fly and set it free again to buzz around
the state of New York, leaving its impression,
and we will eliminate the marriage penalty,
the marriage tax penalty, which is unfair and
it doesn't conform to reality.
I would strongly suggest that that
little black fly be allowed to fly free this
year, that it become a part of the tax bill
that we're doing. Let's give fairness to
families and young couples in New York State.
4439
With that, Mr. President, I would
ask that this black fly be set free and that
it be a part of the tax package in this bill
by approving this amendment. Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the amendment. All those in
favor -- I'm sorry, Senator Morahan.
SENATOR MORAHAN: Would the
sponsor of the amendment yield?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger, do you yield to a question from
Senator Morahan?
SENATOR DOLLINGER: I do.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Morahan.
SENATOR MORAHAN: Senator, is
there a cost factor on this amendment?
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Yes. The
cost of eliminating the marriage penalty,
creating equality between young couples who
are not married and young couples that are, is
about $60 million for this current fiscal
year. Played out over the course of an entire
year, it would be about $180 million.
If you believe in families and
4440
believe that they shouldn't have to pay a tax
by the mere fact that they get married, that
$180 million is a simple issue of justice and
fairness.
SENATOR MORAHAN: Will the
Senator yield for another question?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger -
SENATOR DOLLINGER: I'd be glad
to, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR MORAHAN: Yes, Senator, I
understand your talk about the flies.
I guess I was here a few moments
ago when the Minority Leader spoke to this
budget package saying that he had no plans to
speak to it because he didn't feel that the
budget package that's out here today and
yesterday is of any consequence.
Did you hear that, Senator?
SENATOR DOLLINGER: I don't know
that that was verbatim what Senator Connor
said, but I believe he talked about the fact
that this is an evolving process, that this is
4441
not the final budget that will eventually
become law in this state, that's correct.
That's why I think we're offering
these amendments, in hope that the wisdom of
Senator Gentile and Senator Stachowski with
respect to these tax cuts will eventually buzz
their way over to the other side of the aisle
and maybe create some new ideas to be a part
of the process.
SENATOR MORAHAN: Thank you, Mr.
President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Goodman.
SENATOR GOODMAN: Mr. President,
I'd just like to invite Senator Dollinger's
attention to just a few aspects of his new
verbal toy with which he obviously takes great
delight in entertaining the chamber.
May I remind you, Senator
Dollinger, that the black fly is one of the
most pestiferous of all of the members of the
insect family, that its bites often become
infected and create serious problems with the
human body, that they're notable carriers of
germs, that they congregate typically in
4442
lavatories, from which you can assume that
they do not feast upon things which we would
normally regard as appropriate.
In general, I think this imagery is
quite unfortunate and does you a disservice in
what I presume is a sincere effort to try to
attract attention to worthy amendments. But
the black fly could not be a more repugnant or
preposterous little demonstration of that, and
I urge you to reconsider carefully your use of
the imagery for future budgetary debates.
Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger, I was about to say "now, who can
argue with that," but you're recognized
anyway.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: I can't argue
with that. I am -- I would only suggest to
Senator Goodman that sometimes the bug is -
once planted, once transplanted, once given
the chance to have an effect, that that little
bug can have an impact. That black fly's had
an impact -- perhaps an insidious one, but
nonetheless, it does leave its mark on people.
And we're simply suggesting that
4443
eliminating the tax penalty for getting
married is an appropriate mark that should be
left on this tax bill. So it may be somewhat
painful, because it comes at the cost of
180 million, but it's the right thing to do.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the amendment. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
SENATOR PATERSON: Party vote in
the affirmative.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Party vote
in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 22. Nays,
35. Party vote.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendment fails.
Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
I have a -
SENATOR SKELOS: Can I interrupt
you one moment for an aside?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Excuse
4444
me one moment.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: There will be an
immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in
the Majority Conference Room.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Immedia
te meeting of the Rules Committee in the
Majority Conference Room.
I'm sorry. Senator Paterson, can
we hold that for a minute?
Senator Waldon.
SENATOR WALDON: Thank you, Mr.
President, and thank you, Senator Paterson,
for yielding.
I was called away from the chamber
yesterday when we dealt with Calendar 1150 and
Calendar 1166. I would like the record to
reflect, please, that had I been here I would
have voted in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
record will so reflect, Senator Waldon.
Senator Seabrook.
SENATOR SEABROOK: Yes,
Mr. President. With unanimous consent, I'd
like to be recorded in the negative on
4445
Calendar 1215.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without
objection, Senator Seabrook will be recorded
in the negative on Calendar 1215.
Senator Kuhl.
SENATOR KUHL: Mr. President, may
I have the unanimous consent to be recorded in
the negative on Calendar Number 960.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without
objection, Senator Kuhl will be recorded in
the negative on Calendar Number 960.
Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Yeah.
Mr. President, I have an amendment at the
desk. I'd like to waive the reading of the
amendment and speak on the amendment, please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
reading of your amendment is waived, and
you're recognized for the purpose of
explaining the amendment.
SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
I'm sorry that Senator Dollinger is not here,
because I think that he must have learned a
lesson from that last amendment by already
thinking that the amendment would fail. This
4446
is just metaphysically not a good way to
operate in government, particularly when
you're in the Senate Minority.
Now, over the last five years, as
close as I can calculate, I have lost 84
amendments in a row. However, that hope that
springs eternal in the human breast brings me
to the amendment I offer today, which I think
the Acting Majority Leader, Senator
Marcellino, and all the Majority members will
certainly concur with.
What we wish to do through this
amendment is to remove hundreds of personal
accessories from the sales tax, making the
sales tax more regressive [sic] and inevitably
more fair. Some of the personal items that
would be removed from the sales tax -- and
I'll look through the list -- might even
include insect repellent.
It would be a possibility of
removing from the tax personal articles such
as bicycle helmets, for instance, smoke
detectors, personal flotation devices, and
certain personal hygiene items such as soap,
deodorant, feminine hygiene products, and
4447
others of the like. There are some medical
products that were -- there were some medical
products that we've exempted based on some
circumstances as to whether or not they would
actually be applicable.
But this is a -- an amendment that
we proposed last year and was defeated. We're
going to bring it back in the hope that
perhaps the Majority will see the light now
and would like to exempt these personal
accessories from the sales tax.
Also the tax that we would have
currently for motor vehicle leases would be
removed, and we would certainly no longer see
the need to have food stamps -- for food stamp
products, that they be sorted. We're removing
that from the list and, as I said, repealing
the leases for automobiles from the tax.
So all in all, these are items that
are of great need to all individuals. We
think it's very important that they be removed
from the sales tax and that it would make it a
lot easier for a number of people around the
state if they actually do this.
So that is my amendment. I leave
4448
to the Majority the opportunity to rule on it.
It would be so much different, so much more
interesting if they went along with this
amendment. And I leave it in your hands,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
question is on the amendment. All those in
favor signify by saying aye.
SENATOR ONORATO: Party vote on
the affirmative.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Party vote,
unfortunately, in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 22. Nays,
35. Party vote.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
amendment fails.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Read the
last section, please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 162.
This act shall take effect immediately.
4449
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 57.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Can we now
take up Calendar Number 1216, please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read Calendar Number 1216.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1216, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 5, an act
to amend the State Finance Law, in relation to
the debt reduction reserve.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation,
please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Marcellino, an explanation -
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. Presid
ent, I can give a brief statement on this one.
This is the Senate's debt reform proposal
which builds off the Governor's proposal to
4450
establish a debt reserve fund and increase the
cash or hard-dollar commitment to the capital
expenditures by eliminating backdoor borrowing
and authorizing voter-approved debt only.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
act shall take effect immediately.
SENATOR SMITH: Just a moment.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Smith.
SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President,
would the sponsor -- well, it's not the
sponsor. He's on the phone too.
Would the sponsor please yield for
a question?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Marcellino, do you yield for a question?
SENATOR MARCELLINO: As the
surrogate sponsor, I will yield.
SENATOR SMITH: That was what I
was looking for, surrogate.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR SMITH: In this bill it
4451
says requires not less than 25 percent of the
tobacco settlement monies to be deposited into
the debt reduction reserve fund. Would it be
required that they be used for any particular
purpose?
SENATOR STAFFORD: This is a
little unfair. I'd basically better earn my
money.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: I will yield
gratefully to Senator Stafford, our financial
expert.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Senator Smith,
you're not being unfair.
SENATOR SMITH: Thank you.
SENATOR STAFFORD: I was.
SENATOR SMITH: Oh, that's okay,
you can finish your lunch.
SENATOR ONORATO: We withdraw our
question for Senator Marcellino and refer it
to Senator Stafford.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: There we go.
SENATOR STAFFORD: This does
dedicate up to 25 percent of the state's
4452
portion for deposit in the debt reduction
reserve fund.
SENATOR SMITH: Yes, I said that
before you came.
And through you, Mr. President, I'm
inquiring as to are there any specific
purposes for that 25 percent. Have we
dedicated it to health, to smoking issues, to
children's issues, to whatever?
SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I of
course -- I see exactly what you're asking.
And I think this is such a hard call. I
certainly respect your concern. And knowing
that you're a very knowledgeable, intelligent
person, I see exactly what you're -- the point
you're making.
SENATOR SMITH: Flattery will get
you everywhere.
SENATOR STAFFORD: The point that
has to be made here -- and it's very
emotional. I will never forget a very good
friend of mine in the Assembly. I attempted
to sort of make points on this issue, and I've
never -- and it wasn't personal, but I've
never had anyone come after me the way this
4453
gentleman did. And afterward I complimented
him because he felt so strongly about it.
The issue, of course, is do we use
some of this money for debt reduction or do we
use it all in the lines that reflect what
you're suggesting. It's a very, very tough
call. I say that the debt with this state -
or the debt the state has, I don't think we
have the top bond rating. In fact, I'm not
even going to say where we are. But I don't
want even to say -- I guess there's one.
Louisiana, is that lower than us?
And I don't mean to make light of
it, because I realize you're talking about a
very, very serious issue. But I do think that
some of this money -- I do support this amount
going for a reduction of the debt.
SENATOR SMITH: Mr. President,
would the sponsor yield again?
SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR SMITH: Thank you. I'm
not arguing the use of the 25 percent for the
debt reduction. However, I'm asking why
4454
wasn't some of this money set aside for young
people, to help them with the cessation of
smoking, since that is something that has -
will create for problems for the state, more
health hazards, and the cigarette -- that's
why we won the money in the first place.
SENATOR STAFFORD: The remaining
75 percent of what you're asking about, that's
now open and being discussed. So that this is
good that we're having this discussion, and
the decisions will be made on it.
SENATOR SMITH: Yes, I -
Mr. President, once again.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Smith.
SENATOR SMITH: We have set aside
an amount for debt reduction which you feel is
extremely important. However, since the money
came from the bad habit of smoking -- which I
did too -
SENATOR STAFFORD: I did too.
SENATOR SMITH: -- don't you
think it would have been wiser to take some of
that money and put it to what it was that
really created the funds?
4455
SENATOR STAFFORD: That of course
is being -- that -- Mr. President, that is
being discussed at the present time. And the
point that the Senator is making is a valid
point. And of course I think all of these
discussions will be part of the overall
decision on exactly how this money is used.
SENATOR SMITH: One last
question.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford, do you yield for one more question?
SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR SMITH: Why would we take
money and utilize it for something totally
unrelated when we could use it for something
that it is related to?
SENATOR STAFFORD: That's a valid
question. And of course this goes back to the
initial -- not the initial, but the question
that I responded to when I first came back in.
It's a very tough call.
But again, five years ago, as I
mentioned, with a $5 billion deficit, with a
4456
bond rating in this country that is worse than
every state other than one, I suggest that we
are doing something for the overall quality of
life if we do something about this debt.
It is serious. The state has many
responsibilities. As I said yesterday, some
of the responsibilities we have in some
quarters sometimes are not particularly
popular. I understand that, and I'm one who
defends some of these areas.
But I do think that it makes sense
for us to take a portion of this and use it
for reducing the debt, which will directly and
indirectly do the things that need to be done
to make this state a state that we're -- well,
yes, we're proud of, but to make this a state
where we will be able to provide the services,
meet our responsibilities, and have a quality
of life here that will be the type of life
that we would want our young people, our older
people, people like you and I, all who live in
this state, have.
SENATOR SMITH: Thank you very
much, Senator Stafford.
I believe that the young people
4457
should be provided with the opportunity not to
start smoking, and therefore they would be
alive to enjoy all of those things that you
talk about and the quality of life for the
residents of the state.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Duane.
SENATOR DUANE: Thank you very
much, Mr. President. Would the sponsor yield
to a couple of questions?
SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR DUANE: I agree that
reform is needed. But I think that there are
some areas of reform that are missing from
this proposal. And the first is, how do you
propose that debt management should be managed
in your proposal?
SENATOR STAFFORD: What was your
question? I didn't hear it.
SENATOR DUANE: There's no
management reform of the debt in terms of who
it is, the people who actually would be
managing -
4458
SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, there
will be, because we're going -- we're making a
change here. And other than general
obligations, we're doing away with backdoor
borrowing. And if we borrow, the people are
going to have to approve it.
SENATOR DUANE: No, I understand
that that's what the proposal says. But I
mean in terms of who it is that actually makes
decisions about how the fund should be used
and how the debt service is being managed.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, of
course, first, it will be the Legislature and
the Governor and would follow the capital plan
of the state.
And I would point out,
Mr. President, again, your point is -- the
issue you're raising or the area you're
raising, it certainly deserves discussion.
When you have to put these proposals up to the
people, really they know, you know, how it's
going to be spent. And that, in effect,
builds in accountability.
SENATOR DUANE: Thank you.
Mr. President, through you.
4459
I'm actually trying to get at a
different point, and that is should there not
be a board that would oversee how the funds
are being allocated and whether or not there
be -
SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
I see the point now.
You know, after 34 years here, when
anyone mentions a board or a commission or a
task force or whatever to me, a red light goes
on. We elect the Governor, we elect the
Legislature, and they have to respond every -
well, one every four years and the Legislature
every two years. And to build in more
bureaucracy and to build in more whatever, as
far as I'm concerned, I would look to that
with a rather jaundiced eye.
I find that, if anything, I would
like to eliminate some of these boards we
have, eliminate some of these commissions we
have, eliminate some of the bureaucracy in
government. And again, in this day and age,
when it's sort of the thing to do to beat up
on government -- and we bring it upon
ourselves. I'm pointing right at myself. I
4460
used to be able to say, you know, "I wasn't
here when that happened." But, you know, when
you've been here whatever number of years, you
have to say, "Well, I was here."
On the other hand, there's an
accountability. And I have faith in the
people. And people have to go out there who,
like you and I, decide we want to be involved.
And we have to answer to the people. And if
anything, I think some of these boards and
commissions and whatever we create to insulate
ourselves, I think, if anything, are the
back -- or put us backward, as far as I'm
concerned.
And I think it should be us, the
people making the decision and us, who are
responsible. I think I make my point.
SENATOR DUANE: Through you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR STAFFORD: By all means.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR DUANE: With all due
4461
respect, I would -- I do want to make a couple
of points in response to that response as I
ask my next question.
And I would be remiss if I didn't
mention that I think in this session I've
voted more often than my esteemed colleague
against setting up commissions and boards and
advisory committees, because I do think that
we are charged with making some of the tough
decisions. Yet I've seen on the floor of this
body a lot of side boards being set up to
study things and deferring decision-making.
And I agree that that is not a good way for
government to respond, and that's why you -
often it's not a reflex action, but I'm
actually thinking before I cast my "no" votes
on some of these matters.
However, in this case I would
respectfully disagree, because I do believe
that by putting elected representatives on a
board to manage our debt would be good public
policy and in fact does have the
responsibility that again rests in elected
officials.
And so my question would be what is
4462
the objection to, for instance, having the
Majority Leaders of the houses and, for that
matter, the Minority Leaders of the houses, as
well as the Governor and the Comptroller, or
some combination thereof, serve on a board to
oversee the prudent use of the resources and
the long-term debt of the State of New York?
SENATOR STAFFORD: My objection
is if those officials are doing their job,
which I suggest they are, it is not necessary,
it is just excess baggage, and it's foolish.
SENATOR DUANE: If I may have
another question or two, through you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR STAFFORD: I just wanted
to make my point, Senator.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: He
yields.
SENATOR DUANE: I'm going to make
a similar point, so maybe I'll leave it -
this one is a more open-ended question, again,
and you can make your point, which -- so we
can both hear each other's points.
4463
The same could be said of the
Public Authorities Control Board, I think, in
terms of how responsibility could be expanded.
I've been recently involved in a bipartisan
effort having to do with the budget in
general, I think reflecting the frustration
from the left, from the right, from the center
in terms of how the state budget is or is not
being accomplished this year. And I know
there is as loud a complaint in the Assembly
as there is in the Senate in terms of how it
is that the Minorities get to be involved.
I'm wondering, then, again, if you
would have an objection to adding the Minority
voices from the Legislative bodies onto the
Authorities Control Board as well.
SENATOR STAFFORD: I think,
again -- let me just generally -- generally
make this point. You see, if we do that -
excuse me. If we do that, we're just
continually enlarging the board, and -- you
know, I think it would make it more
cumbersome -- I feel that, again, the Control
Board, right now I think -- of course I'm on
it, you know -- I think is doing its job and
4464
it is a result of the people who are elected.
And I think that really we have to
be very careful if we just enlarge something
and then in effect end up really setting us
backward.
SENATOR DUANE: Mr. President, if
the sponsor would continue to yield.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR DUANE: I want to put
this in the context of sharing, and maybe that
might be a better word to use for how it is
that we could have our voices heard -- a
sharing of responsibility.
But beyond that, I did want to
raise another issue which would not cause the
creation of any new board or expand the number
of board members of something, and that is the
issue of involving the public in a public
review of how it is that debt is being used in
the State of New York. As it is now, there
isn't really a formal public review or public
4465
comment that's required. And even though it's
something that's always a possibility, it's
not something which happens.
So I'm wondering, because it
wouldn't create a new body or a new board or
add any new members to a board, if you would
have -- if the sponsor would have an objection
to having a public review, including a public
comment process.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, again, I
think this is very -- a very healthy
discussion. But once again, we're building
more mechanics into government there.
And the interesting thing is I, for
one, feel that the public does comment. And I
know you have a good feel for your district.
And of course when we go back in our areas, we
know how people feel. I don't know whether we
need to add to this. I think -- of course,
we're authorizing voter approval for debt
only. I see your point.
But you know what we have to be
very careful of too? And this is interesting.
You have to be very, very careful how you
point this out. When I first got here, I was
4466
for initiative, referendum and recall. And I
still support it. Some of my colleagues and
other friends of mine and probably not friends
of mine don't agree with me on the issue. But
here's the point, though. And I'm -- it's
amazing what you learn, learn through the
years.
We do have a system where we're
elected. And we have to take the
responsibility for our decisions. Now, with
debt, there will be voter approval. But I
don't think we should try to shield, either,
and have more mechanics built into
decision-making. We make our decisions, and
of course then we're responsible for them and
have to answer for them.
SENATOR DUANE: On the bill,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Duane, on the bill.
SENATOR DUANE: I'm of several
minds about this. But I do think, first and
foremost, that it can never hurt to have more
public review and public comment. And my
experience has been that I often learn a great
4467
deal from people both who are experts in a
field and people who aren't experts in a field
in terms of how it is that we should exercise
our financial and fiduciary responsibilities
in the State of New York.
I certainly think that there's no
downside to involving the public more than we
already do, that there's not a downside to
encouraging public participation. And I think
potentially there's a very positive impact
that that can be. And even if we set up such
a system for public comment and public review,
even if nobody came -- which I don't think
would be the case -- but there still would be
no harm and no great expense in trying to make
that -- trying to encourage the public to come
and have their voices be heard.
I also think that when we term what
we're doing in terms of the state's debt
issues, that when we call it reform, that we
should look at reform in the totality of what
that means. And that also includes how it is
that decisions are really being made and, even
after decisions are being made, whether
mandates are being followed.
4468
And that's why I've -- I ask
questions about how is it that a board -- or
how it is that a board should be able to
oversee. I don't think that that would be
taking power away from elected officials. In
fact, if anything, I think it puts even deeper
responsibility on their shoulders to make sure
that the State of New York is acting in a
prudent method.
Each of us, yes, are held
accountable by our constituents, and then our
leaders in these bodies are also held
accountable by us. And I think that that
system would work very well in making sure
that the New York State's finances are
administered in the most prudent way possible.
Thank you, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Oppenheimer.
SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I want to
speak on one particular aspect of this bill,
and that is the spending of the tobacco
settlement monies.
A poll was recently done for the
American Cancer Society that showed that out
4469
of -- 6 out of every 10 New Yorkers favor
spending a substantial portion of the state's
income from the tobacco settlement on programs
to reduce smoking. Actually, it's 63 percent
of New Yorkers said they wanted to spend more
than 20 to 25 percent of the money on these
kind of programs. After all, the lawsuit was
about stopping kids from smoking and undoing
the health damage done by the cigarette
companies to the many adults of our state.
I have before me figures, actually
dollars per capita that are being spent for
tobacco prevention programs in other states.
The Executive Budget had recommended that we
spend, per capita, 36 cents for tobacco
prevention in New York State. This meshes
with -- or doesn't mesh with almost $11 per
capita in Massachusetts, $6½ per capita in
Arizona, $6 per capita in Wisconsin, $4 in
Montana, the same in Maryland, the same in
California -- over $4 -- almost the same in
Florida. And what are we talking about in our
state? We're talking about 36 cents.
I think it's an embarrassment. I
think this money was given to us to try and
4470
create a healthier state, both for kids and
adults. And I'm strongly urging all of us to
put the money where the money was intended,
for tobacco prevention, a minimum of
one-quarter of the tobacco settlement monies.
Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Onorato.
SENATOR ONORATO: Thank you,
Mr. President. Will Senator Stafford yield?
Senator Stafford, would you yield?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford, do you yield to a question from
Senator Onorato?
SENATOR STAFFORD: Yes.
SENATOR ONORATO: Senator
Stafford, we're dedicating quite a large sum
of money from the tobacco settlement -
SENATOR STAFFORD: Start again,
please.
SENATOR ONORATO: We're
dedicating quite a large amount of money from
the tobacco settlement. Now, to my knowledge
there has been no settlement as yet with the
tobacco funding as to how much we're going to
4471
get and when we're going to get it. It
reminds me of the horse player who has an "if"
bet: I'm betting $5 on Sea Biscuit, and if he
wins, put $10 on Twenty Grand.
I think that's what we're doing
here. We're putting "if" money -- instead of
using money that we currently have in the
surplus -- depending on whose figure you're
using, we either have a $2 billion or a $4
billion surplus. And to dedicate part of the
tobacco settlement, which is pending, for
non-health-related reasons doesn't sit well
with the people of the state of New York.
The fund was created because it
created hardships and ill health throughout
the state. And to have us react -- on the
very first instance when the money is at hand,
to spend it on other uses, I'd like an
explanation as to why we're putting it first
for that purpose.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Well, I
discussed that with -- Mr. President, I
discussed that with Mr. -- or, excuse me, with
Senator Smith. And I would suggest to you
that great minds can differ.
4472
SENATOR ONORATO: Obviously, we
have already differed. No question about it.
SENATOR STAFFORD: And I
appropriate my remarks that I made earlier.
It was the exact same issue.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Schneiderman.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: That's all
right. I just want to make a statement on the
bill, if I may.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Schneiderman, on the bill.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you.
And I appreciate the sponsor's courtesy.
I've listened with interest to the
debate over this and the other budget bills,
and I realize that the language is all the
language I want to hear, the language of
economic growth, the language of reducing the
state debt. The difficulty that I have -- and
I'm unable to support this measure -- is that
4473
I don't really think we have, over the last
five years or six years, been delivering on
our rhetoric in the state government. I think
that the facts, the economic facts, do not
support many of the arguments that have been
made that the state is turning around and
we're doing things and we're moving forward.
And I don't think this legislation moves us
forward either.
I'm disappointed by the fact that
the New York State has lagged the rest of the
country in our efforts to reduce unemployment.
I find it astonishing that the Governor claims
to have turned the state around when we still
have an unemployment rate significantly higher
than the rest of the Northeast region and in
the United States as a whole. And I think
that the truth of the matter is that we don't
have an economic policy in this state that is
working, and that efforts to put aside funds
that should be used to deal with long-term
issues, like health care costs and like
children and smoking, just to pay for our own
bad conduct, which we continue by way of
cutting taxes when we don't have the revenues
4474
to support the tax cuts and borrowing when we
don't have the ability to pay off the debt,
that is not the kind of economic policy I want
to see in this state.
That is not the kind of economic
policy that will grow the jobs we need in the
21st century. We have to be, in a global
economy, competitive not just with New Jersey,
a state which is beating us economically, or
Connecticut, a state which is beating us
economically, but with Germany, with Taiwan,
with the rest of the world. And I don't see
that in any of these proposals. And I'm very
concerned about the notion that as a matter of
political cover we can set aside funds that
are needed for long-term needs in an effort to
patch over the short-term economic policy
disaster that I believe we're facing in this
state.
So I am voting no on this. And I
think this is a concern that rides through
many of the bills we've seen so far today.
The rhetoric is there, but I'd like to see
more of the substance. Because I don't want
to be back here in three years or four years,
4475
once we've spent all the extra money we had
due to these windfalls and we're looking at
huge deficits, our debt is still high, and our
unemployment rate is higher still than it is
today.
Thank you.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: The Senator
has pricked me. I tried to be short with
Senator Onorato, which I shouldn't have been.
But you have proceeded now to get me on my
feet.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Well, the
black flies, Senator Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: I should
correct the dates of those black flies, too.
But I should -- it's my
responsibility to stand up and to emphasize
the point I made with Senator Smith. And we
discussed this, and she made the point exactly
that you two have made -- very well, I might
add.
Let me share this with you. I too
4476
know what it's like -- or all of you do, but I
was here when this state was going entirely in
the wrong direction. And, Senator, I would
share with you it is my opinion that we're not
going to compete globally the way we should,
we're not going to compete nationally the way
we should with a bond rating with only
Louisiana worse than us.
And one of the first things they
look at on Wall Street -- and by the way, I'm
not sure Wall Street is always right. On the
other hand, it's the real world. They look at
the bond rating, and that does nothing but
cause us problems and does nothing but put us
down. I would suggest that it's certainly
supportable, I support it, I think it makes
all the sense in the world to take some of the
money that you're questioning, a reasonable
amount -- I think this is reasonable -- and
apply it to the debt of the State of New York.
Because, my friends, I saw this
state when it was going down. I think we're
going in the right direction. Rather than
losing 500,000 jobs, we've gained a couple of
hundred thousand jobs, or 250,000 jobs.
4477
Rather than manufacturing, rather than
business leaving, today business is coming to
New York. And I see that right in my own
district. And, Mr. President, I'm one who
lives in a district that has had problems, and
I will take you and show you poverty, as bad
as it gets anywhere, and I will take you where
there is a need for jobs. But it is
improving, and it's going in the right
direction. Five years ago, it wasn't going in
the right direction. Five years ago, we were
going down the drain.
One of the things we can do here,
and we're doing it, is applying money to the
debt of the State of New York. I say it's a
move in the right direction for the health of
the State of New York and for the health of
the individuals in the State of New York. So
I feel I should say that, because we obviously
have a discussion here where we're all
entitled to our points of view. But I think
this is a very valid measure, and I think it
should be supported.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Mr.
President.
4478
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Schneiderman.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you.
I appreciate the sponsor's
comments, and I completely agree with the
objective. I think reducing the debt of the
State of New York should be our goal. I think
we should be working harder on that. My
comments were really meant to reflect my view
that the way to really reduce debt is to have
a long-term economic growth policy that will
develop the jobs in the private sector we
need.
And in my view, frankly, I think
that the current administration and the
administration before it, although of
different party lines, have similar failings.
And I look forward to the day when I talk to
my friends on Wall Street, because this is -
you know, you talk about Wall Street, I spent
the better part of my career as a lawyer
defending Wall Street firms. I assure you
that they share this view, but they do not
believe that short -- no economic analyst
believes that short-term set-asides of funds
4479
is the way you meet the challenge.
We have to meet the challenge by
developing the private-sector jobs, and
sometimes that requires investment in our
infrastructure, investment in our human
infrastructure. And I think that things like
the public health of our citizens are as
important an investment as any set-aside for
debt reduction.
And I urge that we take a more
complete view of the issue, and I look forward
in the years to come to actually making
progress on that very valid concern.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Thank you,
Mr. President.
I rise just -- I wasn't going to
speak on this bill, but the colloquy between
Senator Schneiderman and Senator Stafford
caused me to pause for a second. It seems to
me that there's a way to solve our problems,
Mr. President, with respect to borrowing, and
we don't need a Constitutional amendment or
anything else to do it.
4480
What we need to do is go to that
fiscally conservative institution that bails
out countries that borrow too much money.
It's called the International Monetary Fund.
We're a debtor state. We owe the City of New
York a billion dollars in back education
claims. We've got a debt load that's massive.
We've used backdoor borrowing and every trick,
including the sale of the prisons, which was
authorized by the Senate Majority in this
house. We've used every possible trick we can
to continue to borrow. We are a state that
really should be the founding member of
Borrowers Anonymous, because we're addicted to
borrowing.
What would the International
Monetary Fund tell the State of New York if it
were a country, a freestanding country? We
have an economy that's bigger than the entire
gross national product of all but about twenty
nations. So what would they come to us and
say? They'd say three things: Stop borrowing
money today. Don't borrow any more money.
Two, pay cash. Use your available cash to pay
for expenses. And, number three, they'd say
4481
do it now.
This proposal from the Senate
Majority does not one of those three things.
First of all, it says we're not going to
really stop borrowing through the back door
till the year 2003, 2004. In fact, we really
won't stop doing it until 2008, nine years
from now. So we're not doing it now, we're
doing it nine years from now.
Two, they say pay cash, use your
available cash. This bill says, oh, no, no,
we're not going to use our available cash,
we're going to take the "if" money, the
"if-come" money that Senator Onorato talked
about, and we're going to use that to pay down
our debt. Maybe if we get the money from the
tobacco settlement, then we'll pay down our
debt. The IMF would say: Can't do that,
can't do that, that's one of those debtor
nation ruses that doesn't stand up to the
economic test. Let's use good, old-fashioned,
conservative Wall Street-based principles:
Use your cash, take it out of your treasury.
Don't rely on the if-come of tobacco money.
And the last thing they'd tell you
4482
is to stop borrowing. I will bet -- I will
take a bet with anybody on that side of the
chamber, on this side of the chamber, $10 says
that there will be more backdoor borrowing in
this budget than there was in last year's
budget, and we will continue to borrow through
the back door because we're already so far in
debt, we will continue to borrow through the
back door because, heaven forbid, if we don't
borrow through the back door, we might have to
raise taxes to pay for our ongoing expenses.
I will predict that the ratio of backdoor
borrowing in this bill, in this final budget,
will be greater than it was the year before.
So the IMF would say stop
borrowing, pay cash, do it now. If we don't
stop borrowing, we continue to borrow, we
don't pay cash, we pay if-come tobacco money,
we don't do it now, we do it a decade from
now. And this is what they call debt reform?
I would suggest to everybody in this chamber,
if this is going to be debt reform, we should
all stand up and say, as they do at every one
of those Anonymous meetings, whether it's
Alcohol Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous, "My
4483
name is the State of New York. I'm here today
because I can't stop borrowing, and I want all
of you to help me." I would suggest we all
ought to repeat that litany every time we sit
down to do a budget that is loaded with more
backdoor borrowing.
Let's start Borrowers Anonymous
right now, and let's do what the International
Monetary Fund would do. Let's do it now, no
more backdoor borrowing in this budget. Let's
pay cash out of the treasury and not use the
if-come tobacco money, which my colleagues
have said should be used for something else.
And let's do it today, make it effective
today.
I'm going to vote against this.
This is not really debt reform. We're not
going to cease our addiction to debt by doing
this, I guarantee it.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
4484
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
the negative on Calendar 1216 are Senators
Connor, Dollinger, Duane, Gentile, Markowitz,
Montgomery, Onorato, Paterson, Rosado,
Sampson, Schneiderman, Seabrook, Smith, and
Stachowski. Ayes, 43. Nays, 14.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr. Presid
ent, can we now take up Calendar Number 1217.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read Calendar 1217.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1217, by Senator Bruno, Senate Print 4,
Concurrent Resolution of the Senate and
Assembly Proposing Amendments to Article 7 of
the Constitution.
SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Stafford, an explanation has been requested.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Mr. President,
I would guess -- but of course I've been here
long enough, you never know exactly what
4485
people's responses will be. On the other
hand, I think this certainly is a move in the
right direction. And this amendment
eliminates backdoor borrowing. And there will
be no new authorizations by the Legislature
after January 1, 2002, and no new issuances on
such authorization after January 1, 2004.
During the transition to the
elimination of backdoor borrowing which I just
referred to, debt outstanding would be subject
to a declining cap as a percentage of personal
income, from 5.3 percent to 4.8 percent over
three years, beginning in state fiscal year
2001 and 2002. No new legislatively
authorized debt to replace backdoor borrowing.
Only voter-approved general obligation debt
can be issued. It does allow multiple general
obligation bond issues on the ballot, and all
debt issuance will be for capital projects
only.
And I think this is something we
can be proud of, and I think it's something we
can support.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson.
4486
SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
on the bill.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson, on the bill.
SENATOR PATERSON: I don't know
whether Senator Stafford would like to comment
on this or not, but I agree with him
completely. I just wondered why we couldn't
do this today, immediately. Certainly as a
Constitutional amendment it will require a
public referendum. But I just wondered why
these dates couldn't have been moved up to the
earliest possible time, assuming that the
public passes a referendum, which I would
suggest that the public would.
I think this is a good idea whose
time came a long time ago, but we continued to
borrow. At one point in the mid-'90s I
remember we had borrowed $6.6 billion through
this kind of backdoor system, borrowing from
the agencies. And my only regret is that we
don't expedite the process right here and have
this take effect in an even shorter period of
time.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
4487
Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: I certainly
compliment Senator Paterson for his reaction,
and I knew my good friend would be very
sensible and show his intellect, his
sensitivity and sensibleness.
I would only say, as I earlier here
defended the Legislature and the entire -
it's not that bad, is it? -- and defended
those in government, because I think we do
have a good system, I am very aware that at
times we have to harness ourselves and we have
to put in ironclad checks and balances. And
the way to do this is to amend the
Constitution. And that way we have those
ironclad harnesses, if you will, if you would
like to call it that.
I think it is necessary. I think
the way to do it is amending the Constitution,
and that way there'll never be any question.
And as the tide ebbs and flows twice in 24
hours and as we move up, down, over, yonder
and on, we will not be able to be pressured
into making decisions that in effect would not
be prudent.
4488
So I think this is the route to go.
I think the Constitutional amendment will have
its first passage if this passes in the
Assembly -- which I hope it will -- it will be
voted upon, and hopefully the voters will
approve it.
And as you get older it's amazing,
Senator, how quick this will happen.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Call the
roll, please.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: On the
resolution. The Secretary will call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 54. Nays,
3. Senators Dollinger, Duane, and
Schneiderman recorded in the negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
resolution is adopted.
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Mr.
President, can we call the controversial
calendar in regular order.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will return to the controversial
calendar and read in regular order.
4489
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
658, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 3529, an
act to amend the Insurance Law and the General
Obligations Law, in relation to the use of
lands.
SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: Excuse me,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Saland, an explanation has been requested.
SENATOR SALAND: Thank you,
Mr. President.
Mr. President, this bill is a bill
which is intended to encourage owners of
certain properties, land and also water areas,
to make such areas available to the public for
recreational activities instead of posting
such areas and prohibiting their use. And one
of the purposes of this bill is to accomplish
that by limiting their potential liability
exposure.
In addition, the bill would amend
the Insurance Law to require the Insurance
4490
Department to study ways to control the cost
of property liability coverage for owners who
would so permit the public use of their
property.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
if Senator Saland would yield.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Saland, do you yield for a question?
SENATOR SALAND: Yes,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
Saland, whenever there are these types of
liability cases, as you know -- and we've
talked about this before -- the standard
that's used by a court or by a jury to
determine whether or not in this case a
landowner should have been able to foresee the
liability, the hazardous condition, is based
on what's known as a reasonable test: would
the reasonable man or woman be able to
determine that this was something that needed
4491
some kind of remediation.
And what this legislation does, in
effect, in some parts is take this away. It
almost creates an assumption of the risk on
the part of the individual who is going onto
the land. And most often the individuals who
might do that, particularly in these types of
circumstances, would be children. So what we
have is a possibility of substantial injury to
children, and no real recourse because this
has barred any legal action.
And I think -- my question to you
is, what remedy would the injured party have
in a situation such as this when we've taken
the legal remedy away from them?
SENATOR SALAND: Mr. President,
first, I'm not sure I would conclude as
readily as Senator Paterson does that somehow
or other we are disproportionately putting
children at risk or, for that matter,
disproportionately putting anybody at risk.
What this bill does is in effect
draws upon the existing General Obligations
Law, Section 9103, which currently enumerates
a dozen to 15 particular categories of
4492
activities which this body and this state has
seen in this its wisdom to appropriately
eliminate liability with respect thereto.
What this bill does, it doesn't
change any of the standards that are contained
in that already existing legislation. It
basically says we're going to expand this
liability protection to any recreational use.
The language which exists in the statute
currently, which would be subsection 2 -
would now be changed to subsection 3 -- talks
about what isn't limited. It talks about
willful or malicious failure to guard or to
warn about a dangerous situation, talks about
saying if you're going to charge a fee to let
somebody use your premises for recreational
purposes, you will no longer be free from
liability. It also goes on to say that for
injuries caused by acts of persons to whom
permission to pursue the use of the premises
or for other persons to whom you owe a duty to
keep your premises safe or to warn of the
danger would similarly not permit you to
escape liability. That is the existing law.
We're doing nothing to change the
4493
existing law. We are merely making uniform
the liability limitation with respect to
recreational use. And the purpose, quite
obviously, is consistent with things such as
the Hudson Valley Greenway, which purports to
provide greater access to land, greater access
to the river, greater recreational use,
something which I would assume we would all
agree is a worthwhile goal and objective.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
if Senator Saland would continue to yield.
SENATOR SALAND: Yes,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, what
is the incentive for the landowner to cure any
possible dangerous condition on the property,
based on the legislation that we're
considering now?
SENATOR SALAND: Your question
somehow or other seems to imply that
landowners are going to go out of their way to
4494
harbor dangerous conditions that will threaten
injury to those who might use their premises.
The fact of the matter is -- and I daresay
there is nothing to indicate that in any of
the enumerated categories to which this
particular section of the law currently
applies, whether it's canoeing, boating,
trapping, hiking, cross-country skiing,
tobogganing, sledding, and whatever
speleological activities are -- I'd assume
it's spelunking -- horseback riding, bicycle
riding, hang-gliding, motorized vehicle
operations for recreational purposes,
snowmobile operation, cutting or gathering of
wood for noncommercial purposes, or training
of dogs -- I'm not aware that there has been a
groundswell of conditions that have been
harbored that would endanger anybody engaging
in those activities.
Because if there has been, as far
as I know, it hasn't been reported anywhere.
And I would reasonably assume that there would
be somebody who would have presented, either
in memo form or in some other datalike
fashion, evidence to show that this existing
4495
law is harmful to people who seek to take
advantage of it.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
Senator Saland.
Mr. President, on the bill.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson, on the bill.
SENATOR PATERSON: I don't think
that there's any intent on the part of
landowners not to conform with what would be
their duties as citizens. Nor do I think that
landowners are careless and without regard for
what might happen to trespassers on the
particular property.
All we are saying is that these
types of situations are ones in which we would
not like to see a bar established in any form
because it takes away the test of the
individual situation.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect on the 180th day.
4496
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in
the negative on Calendar Number 658 are
Senators Connor, Dollinger, Duane, Onorato,
Paterson, Sampson, and Senator Montgomery.
Ayes, 50. Nays, 7.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Can we go
on, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will continue to read in regular
order.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
779, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 2953, an
act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to the
tax on sales and the compensating use tax.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
act shall take effect immediately.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
4497
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 56. Nays,
1. Senator Dollinger recorded in the
negative.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The bill
is passed.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1223, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 1969,
an act to amend the Public Health Law, in
relation to authorizing and directing the
Commissioner of Health.
SENATOR DUANE: Explanation.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, an explanation has been requested by
Senator Duane.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Thank you,
Mr. President.
This legislation passed last year
and is the Number 2 bill for the volunteer
firefighters on Long Island. This bill would
direct -- authorize and direct the
Commissioner of Health to promulgate rules and
regulations that will require a medical
facility to give notice of the presence of
4498
communicable disease or other health risks to
emergency-respond personnel who have had
certain contact with a person who is a carrier
of a communicable disease or who possesses a
possible health risk to such personnel.
There have been a number of
incidents and concerns by medical-respond
individuals who handle the ambulance service
and the volunteer fire department. And also
on Long Island we have -- and throughout the
state, by the way -- we have ambulance
districts. And so this would merely indicate
whether an individual who the
emergency-respond person is coming into
contact with has a communicable disease and
whether they need to seek medical attention.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Waldon.
SENATOR WALDON: Thank you very
much, Mr. President. Please suffer an
interruption.
I was called out of the chamber on
other Senate business when the house dealt
with Calendar 658. I respectfully request
unanimous consent to be recorded in the
4499
negative on 658.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Without
objection, Senator Waldon will be recorded in
the negative on 658.
Senator Duane.
SENATOR DUANE: Thank you very
much, Mr. President. I was hoping the sponsor
would yield to some questions.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Sure.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle -- the sponsor yields.
SENATOR DUANE: I first would
like to know -- the sponsor mentioned that
there were incidents dealing with this issue.
And I was wondering if he could tell me what
those incidents are.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Simply that a
person with the emergency-respond personnel
came to the scene of an accident and a person
was obviously bleeding, and they had some
concern whether that individual had a
communicable disease that they should worry
about.
So it's basically a daily
occurrence where someone is responding to a
4500
scene and someone is bleeding or they see some
other signs of other communicable diseases,
whether they believe a person has tuberculosis
or hepatitis or other kinds of diseases.
SENATOR DUANE: Through you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR DUANE: So it could be
said that really probably the majority of
cases involving someone going to the scene of
an accident probably does either potentially
or in fact does entail that there would -
could be blood or -- involved in it, in the
incident?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Well, obviously
a large percentage of accidents do have a
victim that -- an individual who is bleeding,
yes.
SENATOR DUANE: And then for the
incidents where there isn't any blood, then
you're less concerned about whether or not
4501
there would be any -
SENATOR LAVALLE: No, no, no, I'm
not. I've specifically indicated other
categories of things that are communicable
diseases, such as hepatitis, tuberculosis.
And these are trained people, and
they obviously recognize certain symptoms or
certain things that might lead them to draw a
conclusion that an individual had hepatitis or
tuberculosis.
SENATOR DUANE: If the sponsor
would continue to yield.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I will.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR DUANE: I'm wondering if,
when the sponsor of this legislation goes to
the dentist, whether the dentist takes
universal precautions when performing a dental
examination on the sponsor.
SENATOR LAVALLE: I think today
most dentists take certain requirements where
they are working with various gloves, have a
mask that they use. Not only on myself, but I
believe that's a standard procedure in the
4502
dental office that I frequent.
SENATOR DUANE: Through you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR DUANE: Is the sponsor
aware that in fact dentists -- indeed, all
health-care personnel -- are always supposed
to use universal precautions against the
spread of infectious diseases?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
SENATOR DUANE: And is the
sponsor aware of what entails significant risk
in terms of medical procedures -- or not
medical procedures, virtually -- what
constitutes significant risk in terms of the
spread of infectious disease?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Well, I think,
Senator, we're talking about a communicable
diseases here in the -- in this legislation.
There are other categories in the legislation.
I think I had mentioned -
4503
SENATOR DUANE: I'll pare it
down. Hepatitis and HIV.
SENATOR LAVALLE: There is a
concern, Senator, on the part of volunteer -
SENATOR DUANE: Concerns are not
facts, Senator. I'm hoping you could stick
with the facts.
SENATOR LAVALLE: No, that's why
this legislation is before us, Senator.
That's why we as legislators file and bring to
this forum legislative proposals, because they
come from constituencies that have various
concerns.
SENATOR DUANE: Through you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR DUANE: Does the sponsor
perhaps see that education is as important a
role that we have in addition to responding to
concerns which are not based in fact?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator Duane,
4504
the education is always an important
component. But what we are seeking to do here
in this legislation really parallels federal
regulations that allow -- and I will just read
here. The new regulations which took effect
in 1994 would -
SENATOR DUANE: Mr. President,
regulations -- I'm unclear what these
regulations are for.
SENATOR LAVALLE: I'm going to,
if you'll give me a chance, Senator, I'll
complete -- the new regulations which took
effect in '94, I believe, would require
medical facilities to determine whether an
emergency-respond employee might have been
exposed to specific infectious diseases that
can be transmitted through the air or through
contact with blood or other bodily fluids.
And of course -- and I know your
concerns, so we might as well go right -- and
of course on that list is -- the HIV virus is
on that list, Senator.
So what we are doing here in New
York is asking that the State Health
Commissioner really promulgate similar
4505
legislation that covers the emergency-respond
people. We delineate that. We also have in
the legislation a provision that deals with
the liability issue, should such notification
not be given, and say that a person would be
liable only for grossly negligent behavior in
not giving notification.
So what we're doing here is we're
not -- we're not doing something so bold and
we're not shocking the consciousness of anyone
here, because we have already had federal
regulatory rules that have been on the books
since April of 1994.
SENATOR DUANE: Through you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR DUANE: In fact, the
legislation before us does not specifically -
and I'll just read a small part of it,
although the legislation is like this
throughout -- it doesn't talk about dangerous
4506
contact involving blood or anything like that.
It talks about casual contact; for instance,
transporting a person.
How is transporting a person in any
way a danger of contacting infectious disease?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, if
they're bleeding, I think -
SENATOR DUANE: No, it does not
say bleeding.
SENATOR LAVALLE: But, Senator,
we delineate here certain -- if you go to
lines 11 to 14, I think it begins to spell out
some things.
SENATOR DUANE: It says that the
person could potentially be carrying those,
but if -
SENATOR LAVALLE: Well, would you
read that, Senator? Would you read that
section, please?
SENATOR DUANE: Participating -
SENATOR LAVALLE: Would you read
it for the record, please?
SENATOR DUANE: Yeah, I'll read
it. "Is a carrier of a communicable disease
designated in the sanitary code, including but
4507
not limited to HIV, immunodeficiency syndrome,
hepatitis B, and pulmonary tuberculosis."
SENATOR LAVALLE: Or -- or -
SENATOR DUANE: However, it
doesn't say the person has to be bleeding -
SENATOR LAVALLE: Or otherwise -
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senato
rs, could I ask you both to address your
comments through the Chair, please?
SENATOR DUANE: Mr. Chair, it
does not say that that person needs to be
bleeding. That person could have a
nonbleeding condition, and if they need to be
helped or carried, the implication is that the
medical person needs to know. But beyond
that -
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Duane, are you on the bill now or are you
addressing a question to the sponsor?
SENATOR DUANE: I am all over
this bill, Mr. President.
(Laughter.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Well,
I'm -- that's very interesting. But I need to
know for my own purposes. Are you addressing
4508
a question to the sponsor or are you on -
SENATOR DUANE: Does the sponsor
believe that if there is no fluid -
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Wait a
minute. Just a moment, Senator Duane. We'll
get this done in proper order.
Senator LaValle, do you yield for
another question?
SENATOR LAVALLE: I'll try.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR DUANE: Does the sponsor
believe that if there is no blood or anything
like that, that there's a need to know whether
the person is carrying HIV or, for that
matter, hepatitis?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator Duane,
what I was starting to say, that the
legislation reads on, "or otherwise poses a
possible health risk to such personnel."
Now, there can be a situation -
SENATOR DUANE: I'm sorry, does
not or does?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator,
you have to -
4509
SENATOR DUANE: I just didn't
hear what he said.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, you
have the bill. We can read along together.
In my former life, when I was a teacher, we -
so if you pick the bill up, we can read it
together.
SENATOR DUANE: I just -- I
didn't hear what you said, was the problem.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Oh, I'm sorry.
It goes on to say or -- you read the A
section. And it says "or otherwise poses a
possible health risk to such personnel."
So that we have -- we could have a
situation where a person is maybe not bleeding
at the time. There can be other criteria, and
I think I indicated that, which response
people are trained to do, that it could be a
situation where a person has a concern on
hepatitis B or tuberculosis or that the person
begins to bleed after he left the ambulance,
where it was an internal bleeding and then
begins to bleed externally.
So we don't know. And that's why a
person would like some sort of notification.
4510
And what I have said on this is that this is
not something that is so bold, because federal
regulations have already set the stage for
this.
SENATOR DUANE: Through you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR DUANE: Though I don't
have the document in front of me, I believe
that the federal regulations are talking about
when there is the possibility of a significant
risk having occurred, which would be a
blood-to-blood situation. Or, as defined in
the New York -- and I will -- this is a
question, but I need to get facts on so that
the question can be appropriately framed. The
New York State Health Code does define risk of
transmitting, for instance, HIV as sexual
intercourse, sharing of needles and other
paraphernalia, breastfeeding or giving birth,
transfusion or transplantation of blood, et
4511
cetera.
And my question is if a -- an EMS
technician is transporting a person and not
having sex with them or breastfeeding them or
shooting up with them or giving a blood
transplant, what is the -- or if there isn't
another blood-to-blood contact, in fact what
is the risk of the transmission of HIV in such
a situation?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, as you
well know, we're talking about the Sanitary
Code here. To the best of my knowledge, we're
not talking about -- we're talking about an
emergency-respond person, so we're not talking
about someone in a sexual-relationship
situation here.
But what about the situation,
Senator, and I say this rhetorically, where I
as an emergency-respond person working his -
would be administering some sort of needle
and, in doing so, slip and then go into
myself. Would that -
SENATOR DUANE: In fact,
that's -- Mr. President, through you, if I may
answer.
4512
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Go
ahead. You have the floor, Senator.
SENATOR DUANE: Yes. Although
one would hope that that person, as they
should in all cases -- like your dentist, but
as well an EMS technician -- should be wearing
gloves and should be careful about drawing
blood from anyone, not just a person who has
HIV disease.
And if I may, Mr. President,
supposing today, because I didn't get to eat
lunch, I felt a little faint and in fact
fainted here and EMS came in to revive me.
What business of them is it whether I'm
HIV-positive or not, Mr. Senator? Why would
they need to know that if the condition which
has occurred that's caused them to come and
help me has nothing to do with blood? What
business is it of them?
I would hope they would come
wearing their gloves anyway, no matter who it
is. But why do they need to know about my HIV
status? What business is it of theirs if it's
a non-body-fluid-related thing that's
happening? If I've just fainted because I
4513
didn't have lunch and they come in to help me,
why do they need to know that about me? And
why would you want them to take the time to
call my primary health carrier to find out
whether I am HIV-positive? And would you want
them to call yours if you fainted to just
double-check to make sure that you are not?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, let me
answer that -
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senato
rs, could I ask both of you please to address
the Chair? I understand this is an important
bill, and there are strongly-held beliefs.
But the rules call for members to address the
Chair, please.
Senator LaValle.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President,
certainly a needle can go through rubber
gloves. I think we're talking about something
in the real world here.
I think, Senator, that people
today, whether it's you or any member in this
chamber who would pass out and might need
mouth-to-mouth resuscitation or whatever, I
think this is something important, that people
4514
should have information if I or anyone else is
HIV-positive. I think that's important for
emergency-response personnel to have that
information.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Duane.
SENATOR DUANE: How did you know,
Mr. President?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Well,
you rose, sir, and that's an indication you
wanted the floor.
Do you wish to ask the Senator to
yield or to speak on the bill?
SENATOR DUANE: I still believe
that -- that it is more important that
universal precautions be taken at all times,
whether it's by EMS personnel or by a dental
hygienist or in fact anyone that's providing
health care. In fact, that is the most
important role that we could play regarding
the terrible tragedy of the spread of HIV and
the newer scourge of hepatitis C, let alone
the older ones of A and B.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Excuse
me one moment, Senator Duane.
4515
Senator Paterson, why do you rise?
SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, I'm sorry.
I thought Senator Duane was finished. I had
some questions for Senator LaValle. I'm
sorry.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Duane.
SENATOR DUANE: I am going to
raise another issue in addition to the issue
of the nonmedical necessity of this piece of
legislation, and that has to do with the issue
of confidentiality for those people whose HIV
status may be exposed in this manner.
I want to raise one of the sadly
many times that this sort of tragic occurrence
has come up, and that is having to do with a
routine car accident in Washington, D.C.,
which turned into a demonstration of
intolerance and disrespect for human life.
Tyra Hunter was a passenger in a
car when it was broadsided by another car at a
four-way stop. When fire department personnel
arrived at the scene, Tyra and the driver had
been pulled from the car and were lying on the
ground. As a crowd gathered, a male
4516
firefighter began treating Tyra for her
injuries -- that is, until he cut open her
pants leg and noticed that she had male
genitalia. In fact, Tyra was a male-to-female
transsexual. At that point, the firefighter
stood up and backed away from Tyra, who was
semiconscious and gasping for breath.
The story actually goes on to talk
about the despicable things which that
firefighter then said about this person who
was injured in a car accident, and goes on to
talk about how because the EMS personnel
assumed that this person was HIV-positive and
in fact did not treat her until other
passersby came by and insisted that they take
her to the hospital, which they did, and she
died because they would not treat her on the
spot.
So my point has to do with, first
of all, assumptions about people and who they
are and whether or not they may or may not be
HIV-positive and whether or not that impacts
on their ability to get needed care. My point
also relates to whether or not people may not
actually get the treatment that they need.
4517
And finally, I think the point
needs to be made about discrimination for
people who may be or who are perceived to be
HIV-positive. And I'm wondering what in this
legislation speaks to the need for education
about how it is that HIV is or is not
transmitted and whether or not this bill is
trying to address whether or not if a person
is positive or not, that they would get needed
medical treatment.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Read the
last section.
SENATOR DUANE: That's a
question.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Well,
Senator, you've got to clue me in on this.
Because I asked if you were on the bill or if
you were asking the Senator to yield, and I
didn't receive a response.
SENATOR DUANE: I am asking the
Senator to yield.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I do.
Senator Duane, this bill is -- is
4518
not an education bill. This bill comes out
of, again, a constituency, volunteer firemen
personnel who either perceive or feel that
there is a problem.
This legislation, however, would
avoid the situation that you talked about,
about emergency-respond individuals either
being squeamish or discriminatory in whether
they will give to the full professionalism
that they have in treating a person and
getting them to a medical facility.
Because what they're saying here in
this legislation, what I believe it says very
specifically, is all they want is
notification. They don't want the person's
name. All they want to be notified is whether
there is a situation that they need to concern
themselves about.
Now, in suburban and rural areas,
to this point we do not have paid personnel.
They are volunteers. They do this because
they want to serve their community. This bill
helps them serve their community and humanity
and serves all people regardless of what their
situation is and what their -- whether they
4519
have a communicable disease or not. And it
simply says to that person that whatever the
situation was, whether there's blood or no
blood, there is a problem there that you need
to know about. You don't need to know about
the person's name, but you need to know that
there was a situation.
Now, Senator, I'm representing in
this bill a constituency. And I appreciate
and fully understand, as do the members in
this chamber, your situation and your
constituency that you represent. And there
are two different points of view. It doesn't
mean I do not appreciate your point of view,
but in this legislation I am incorporating
provisions that I feel will protect the public
by having response personnel do their job that
they're trained for, to get people to a
medical facility and at the same time protect
themselves and their family and have people
continue to volunteer.
And that's a major issue for us in
the suburban and rural communities, that we
have volunteers doing this work. There are
many issues, Senator, on this topic, and you
4520
have expressed it and I've heard you in
committees and on this floor. And many of
these issues will be dealt with in separate
pieces of legislation that deal with
education, that deal with discrimination and
other issues that you are far more
knowledgeable on than I. But in this bill my
mission is, as I have articulated, to
represent the emergency-respond personnel,
Senator.
SENATOR DUANE: Through you,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you continue to yield?
The Senator yields.
SENATOR LAVALLE: I will yield,
but I don't know how much more I could say on
this, Senator.
SENATOR DUANE: I just want to
get a clarification. As I read the bill, it
talks about transporting a person, an EMS or a
volunteer firefighter transporting someone.
As I read the bill, it does not say anything
about needle sticks or blood-to-blood or I
would even yield to mouth-to-mouth, of which
4521
there are already things in place where you
could, if you were concerned -- although
that's not a part of this legislation, as I
read it -- where you could find out about your
exposure to HIV.
Is that not correct, that this does
not speak to needle stick, blood-to-blood, or
even mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, but only
transporting a patient?
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle.
SENATOR LAVALLE: It does. And
again, I will say it's the B section,
"otherwise poses a possible health risk to
such personnel." It's a broad thing that can
include many things, Senator Duane.
SENATOR DUANE: Yes, that is
correct, it is very, very broad. Which is one
of the problems.
But my final question would be -
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Wait,
wait.
Senator LaValle, do you yield to
another question?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes, I will.
4522
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Senator yields.
SENATOR DUANE: How would an EMS
or a firefighter treat a person if they were
transporting them? What would be different?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator,
nothing would be different. Because this -
because this bill -
SENATOR DUANE: Nothing would be
different.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Wait a minute.
This bill -
SENATOR DUANE: Thank you.
SENATOR LAVALLE: This bill deals
with, again, as I say, the notification. All
right?
But you must understand, Senator,
in the real world that people have concerns
today. And that's why we have this bill
before us, because through notification a
person can be satisfied that they were
involved in a situation that had no health
risk or they were involved in a situation that
had a health risk.
To some individuals, this
4523
legislation makes no difference. To others -
and obviously, I've mentioned that this bill
is a major initiative for the Long Island
volunteer fire and respond personnel. So they
obviously have some concerns about this area,
and that's why the legislation is before us.
SENATOR DUANE: On the bill,
Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Duane, on the bill.
SENATOR DUANE: Thank you.
Sadly, although the people that are
so much for this bill forgot to share their
reasons for being for this bill with the rest
of us so that we could answer their points and
perhaps educate them on how it is that
communicable diseases are actually spread, by
the sponsor's own admission, nothing would
change in terms of how it is that a person
would be transported. Nothing would change.
The only thing that would change is
that we would be playing into discrimination
and intolerance, which already occurs every
day in our state towards people who have HIV
and people who are perceived to have HIV.
4524
Nothing would be different about how it is
that those people would be transported, except
perhaps they would now run the risk of not
being transported and not getting the
attention that they need, not getting the
medical attention that they need. That's the
only thing that would be different.
Although maybe the other thing that
would be different is from then on their
confidentiality about their HIV status would
forever after be compromised. That might be
the only other difference. But it would make
no difference in the danger that's posed to a
person that's doing the transporting,
particularly and especially if there is no
body fluids being shared or anything like
that. The only thing that could happen is
that a person like me or like you would not
get the attention as quickly -- or if at
all -- as needed, and confidentiality may be
breached.
I urge my colleagues to vote no on
this. Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson.
4525
SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
Mr. President. If Senator LaValle would yield
for a few questions.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle? Senator LaValle yields.
SENATOR PATERSON: Senator
LaValle, Senator Duane made a suggestion and I
thought it was a very good suggestion. I
wanted to see if I might be able to interest
you in the suggestion.
He talked about the need for
education on this subject. When I think back
15 years ago -- and at the time I would do
arraignments when I was in the Queens District
Attorney's office. And when the first AIDS
patients, who happened in these cases to be
defendants, were brought out, it was almost
comical the way the court officers would form
a circle around the individual but, when the
individual moved toward anyone in the circle,
they'd move away from them. And of course as
the prosecutor, this didn't make me feel very
much protected in the courtroom, because no
one wanted to even touch the defendant.
4526
Now, that's what we knew about AIDS
in 1984. And you can certainly understand
that. You can certainly understand this
legislation coming at that particular time.
But now the Center for Disease
Control and many other health-care agencies
around the country are very familiar and can
actually pinpoint what they consider to be the
percentage at risk people are from this type
of exposure. And even though people have said
that they've gotten the HIV virus from
blood-to-blood exchanges, say, during
recreational activities -- playing basketball
or something -- I believe that one of the
agencies approximated the possibility of
getting it under those conditions as
27 million to 1.
So when we look at your
legislation -- and I think what you were
saying before is that the ambulances and a lot
of the services are manned by volunteers. So
what I think what you were trying to establish
in your legislation was a comfort level for
these individuals, that they would just feel
more comfortable if they knew of these
4527
situations, even if the procedures remained
exactly the same.
If that's the case -- and I think
that reflects pretty much what you said -
then I wouldn't understand why you wouldn't
include the educational component that Senator
Duane was pleading for, especially when you
mentioned in your remarks initially that this
was the second priority of the volunteer
firefighters and EMS workers. Well, if this
was their second priority, then I would
suggest to you, Senator, that their priorities
are somewhat out of order, because they see
this as a risk far beyond what it actually is.
And so therefore my question is,
would you reconsider the whole notion of
education for these individuals so that they
might not be acting on their impulses and
their fears and anxieties but would be acting
on real facts, as Senator Duane tried to
present?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle.
SENATOR LAVALLE: I sometimes
4528
forget that those of us in the suburban and
rural areas that deal with volunteer firemen
and those that man the ambulances, and I -
I'm debating two people who come from the city
of New York -- that we have EMTs that are
required by our law to be on the ambulance -
and in some cases, advanced, AEMT, advanced
emergency medical technicians, by either -- by
regulation, these workers take hours and hours
each year, courses and education on situations
that they deal with.
So they are already, Senator -- I
don't have the syllabus, but let me just say,
to be more exacting, it's my belief that they
are receiving education in how to handle these
situations, to, as Senator Duane said, to
provide a safe environment as is done in the
dentist's office, is what he talked about. So
they're receiving that training.
Now, I thought Senator Duane was
talking about education in a broader sense
that deals with the broader society and how we
should be viewing various individuals with HIV
and other communicable diseases in our
society. So I think that would need more
4529
exploration. I -- I don't know -- what I'm
saying is I believe the EMTs already receive
education.
As a matter of fact, Senator, in
some cases -- because we're dealing with
volunteers, remember -- the EMTs have said
they don't even have the time already to take
the courses that are required by regulation
for them to maintain their certification as an
EMT.
I hope I answered your question,
Senator.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
Mr. President. On the bill.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson, on the bill.
SENATOR PATERSON: I would hope
that Senator LaValle will take another look at
the education component that Senator Duane was
suggesting, because I think it's vitally
important, even in a volunteer capacity -- and
perhaps we didn't take a moment out to extend
our deepest appreciation to those people who
4530
are volunteers.
And Senator LaValle is right, I
live in New York City. When something
happens, the people who come there are usually
paid -- except for the legislators. And the
reality is that we might not completely
understand the feelings and the anxieties that
might run through some of the people who
volunteer in these situations.
But I also might suggest, as an
entire body, that we might all not really
understand what it's like to either be an
individual who is in the position of having
one of these diseases or to be perceived to be
suffering from one of them, which is an
unfortunately dangerous situation that occurs
every day -- the perception of people based on
certain characteristics about the individuals
that lead us to think that it's all right to
make certain presumptions about them.
We have to understand that whether
it's out of volunteerism or professionally,
that when acting as a medical person,
providing medical assistance, that there are
rules that individuals must adhere to to
4531
establish some kind of order, some kind of
code to the procedure. And in those
situations, if the volunteer or whoever it is
is following those rules, they shouldn't
encumber any greater problem based on whatever
is the medical condition of the victim.
In the case that we're talking
about, this piece of legislation, I favor the
value that the individual be protected. Our
society, one of the greatest societies in the
world, was founded on the basis of
individualism, where we respect the individual
rights of people, where we do not subject
those rights to unnecessary ridicule,
publication, or in any way further notice than
is absolutely necessary.
Senator Duane conceded that there
are times that you would have to know
specifically what the condition is. But what
he was largely objecting to was that in
situations where the mere transportation -
someone sprains their ankle playing basketball
and now they're on their way to the hospital
and are transferred, say, from the hospital to
some other place, maybe to get further x-rays
4532
or something, and now all their medical
history can come out because of all this
relatively minor injury, when they have never
been bleeding and are never in any way
exposing anyone to the malady that they suffer
from.
So I would just propose,
Mr. President, that we all take a moment to
understand each other's issues, and that this
bill perhaps be recrafted in a way so that the
specific association between illness and the
possibility of spread of the disease are noted
by the individuals who are providing
assistance. Because I think that if they knew
what little risk there is in the overwhelming
number of cases, it would certainly diminish
the concerns that they have.
My concern is that people who in
this society who have already been
discriminated against, people who have already
been ridiculed, then inadvertently have their
conditions publicized, are then further
ridiculed and possibly denied the equal amount
of care that they would have received had
everybody just not known about the condition
4533
in the first place.
And I say this with the deepest
respect and appreciation for those individuals
who on their own time take time out to
volunteer to help their towns and their
villages run in a better fashion.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Nanula.
SENATOR NANULA: Thank you,
Mr. President.
Very quickly, would the sponsor
yield just for a couple of quick questions?
THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle,
do you yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
sponsor yields.
SENATOR NANULA: Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Just for purposes of clarification
for me, with respect to the protocol here, in
asking this question I want to use an example,
maybe to make it a little bit easier. A
person is in an accident, they're lying
roadside, the emergency medical technicians
4534
pull up. And at that point, Senator, what
exactly is the protocol? What determines
whether or not this process is going to be
used, this notification process is going to be
enacted? It is completely discretionary with
respect to those EMTs at the site?
SENATOR LAVALLE: One of the
questions that Senator Duane asked is what
would take place, what would be any different.
He used specifically the situation of
transporting. You now have broadened that a
little bit.
Nothing different would take place.
But it is after, at a point after the person
is transported, in the medical facility, that
we find that there is some sort of problem.
It is at that point that the emergency
personnel, or shortly thereafter, are notified
that there is a problem that they had need to
take care of.
This is a notification bill. This
doesn't say that you shouldn't be taking care
of a person. As a matter of fact, in answer
to Senator Duane, Senator Nanula, I said this
bill would actually give people the peace of
4535
mind to move forward and do the things that
they need to do, that they're trained to do,
with a clearer mind because they will know at
some point in time, at least, that they're
notified. Today, it is possible that they
would not receive notification.
And again, I just want to -
Senator Paterson's point -- say, as I have to
Senator Duane, that we are not releasing
people's names. We're saying there is a
problem and you need to focus on that problem.
It could be a whole host of things. I mean, I
understand where this debate is narrowly
focused on HIV. But there are other -
hepatitis B, tuberculosis, cholera. There is
a whole list that -- it could be measles,
malaria, a whole list of communicable
diseases.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Nanula.
SENATOR NANULA: Through you,
again, Mr. President.
SENATOR LAVALLE: I yield.
SENATOR NANULA: Senator LaValle,
my focus is with respect to the treatment.
4536
And getting back to my last question -- and
maybe I missed your answer -- again, in terms
of the protocol, at what point, if this bill
were to become law, would that EMT be able to
say, under law, "Time out, I want to go" -- or
"I want now to have notification from" -
whether -- I would presume it's an HMO or -
or some other source, as to what the status of
this person's medical condition is, whether or
not they have one of these diseases? Again,
I'm trying to understand -
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I
thought I was very precise, but I will say it
again. There is no point where someone says
"Time out."
SENATOR NANULA: Again, through
you, Mr. President.
Conceivably, could an EMT do that?
Under this bill, could -
SENATOR LAVALLE: No.
SENATOR NANULA: They could not.
SENATOR LAVALLE: No. This is
a -- Mr. President, this is a notification
bill, Senator Nanula.
SENATOR NANULA: Again, through
4537
you, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
SENATOR NANULA: And if I'm being
a little dense here, Senator, I apologize.
In terms of the actual
notification, what you're then saying is that
treatment cannot be at all impeded, that this
bill, if it were to become law, would simply
allow that EMT, if they so requested, to find
out the medical status of the person they
treated after -- you're saying then after?
SENATOR LAVALLE: That is
correct, Senator.
SENATOR NANULA: But it would not
at all -- again, through you, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, do you continue to yield?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Yes.
SENATOR NANULA: But under no
circumstances -- as the bill is written, it
could not impede that individual from
receiving service at any point through the
process of their treatment, from the time at
4538
which the EMTs arrive to the time at which
that individual arrives at a medical facility
for treatment?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Senator, I'm
going to -
SENATOR NANULA: Or, I'm sorry,
if I could clarify that, Mr. President.
If the notification was
requested -- I shouldn't say service denied,
but service delayed -- could that service
potentially be delayed as a result of a
request being made for the status of this
person's condition or health?
SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President,
Senator Nanula, as you read the bill you will
see there is nothing, nothing in this bill
that either by its words or where you would
even perceive would deny medical attention.
And the bill talks about -- and
we're going to read the notification
provision. "Notification by a medical
facility to emergency-respond personnel
pursuant to the provisions of this section
shall include but not be limited to immediate
phone notification by the administrator of the
4539
facility."
So that means, Senator, the
person's in the facility. They have been
treated on the site, transported, they're at
the facility. Now it has been determined that
there is some sort of problem.
And now I'm reading the
notification provision: "but not limited to
immediate telephone notification by the
administrator of the facility to the
individual designated by such
emergency-response personnel to receive
notification, together with written
notification of such communicable disease
within 48 hours after the rendering of medical
assistance by the emergency-response
personnel."
Those are the exact words, to
answer your question, that show this is a
process after the person is treated.
SENATOR NANULA: Thank you.
Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Mr. President.
Just very quickly, on the bill.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Nanula, on the bill.
4540
SENATOR NANULA: Thank you.
There seems, at least for me, to be
a disconnection here in terms of the
importance of making this bill a law in terms
of any kind of protection for those EMT
personnel who are volunteers and their level
of confidence or of good faith that this is
somehow going to create a more safe
environment for them on the job.
In terms of what the Senator just
stated, what we're looking at here is now
allowing these EMTs -- they have a 48-hour
period after the service has been provided to
find out whether or not they treated somebody
who was HIV-positive. That wouldn't undo any
potential risk they may have incurred while
they were providing that treatment.
So, for me, it sounds quite frankly
as though, in all due respect to Senator
LaValle, that this is a feel-good bill. This
is a bill that can now entitle these EMTs to
somehow -- not in a real way, but maybe in
some kind of psychological way to feel better
that they're somehow safer on the job where,
in effect, they have no better knowledge of
4541
what the condition of that individual is while
they're treating them under this bill as they
would in the current state -- or, I should
say, better stated, without this bill.
And at the same time, as has been
stated by my colleagues here, there is a risk
on the other side of the equation. There is a
risk of disclosure with respect to those
individuals who have been treated. And we
have on this floor, at many times in the past,
stood and discussed how important the
confidential nature is of diseases -- in
particular, HIV -- with respect to
discrimination in this society.
So on the one hand, there's no
real, tangible benefit that these EMTs are
able to take away from these bill. And on the
other hand, there's tremendous risk from a
societal perspective in terms of those people
whose names may be released as a result of
this feel-good legislation.
I think it's, quite frankly, not a
responsible bill for that reason, and I agree
with Senator Duane and agree that we should
urge -- I want to personally, I should say,
4542
urge everyone here to vote against this bill
for that very reason. I don't see where
there's real merit, where there's any kind of
additional protection. It's nothing more than
giving a certain population of people a
psychological benefit at the risk of another
population.
Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: The
Secretary will read the last section.
SENATOR DUANE: Slow roll call.
THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
act shall take effect on the 120th day.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Call the
roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: A slow
roll call has been requested. Are there five
members standing? There are five members.
The Secretary will ring the bills
and start to read the roll slowly.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi.
SENATOR ALESI: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Balboni.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
4543
Balboni, to explain his vote.
SENATOR BALBONI: Thank you, Mr.
President. I've never had the opportunity to
rise on this issue, and I do so today for the
specific purpose of just pointing out one or
two things.
The first is Senator Ken LaValle
should be applauded for having the political
courage to take up this issue. This is not
exactly politically correct. But then again,
so should Senator Duane, for bringing in other
information that is beneficial to all of us to
see this from a different perspective. And so
I thank you for that. It's an important issue
that should be discussed from those
perspectives.
But I'm going to support this bill,
and I'll tell you why. Publication,
disclosure, these are concepts that have been
developed in our Civil Rights Law, these are
concepts that we have -- but unfortunately, in
the course of life, they are not reality. Go
to an emergency room in this state and see
what happens when an HIV patient is being
treated. Walk into an OR, operating room,
4544
when there's an open-heart surgery going on,
and see who knows if the patient is
HIV-positive. They all know. So if you're
worried about the health community or about
people who are not a physician knowing about
this information and disclosure, it occurs
every day.
In addition to which, there was
debate focused on HIV, but the debate really
focuses on communicable diseases and giving
the men and women the ability to look at their
own lives during the course of treatment.
What Ken LaValle said about volunteer
firefighters and ambulance workers is correct.
It's hard to get these people to volunteer.
It's enormous hours, enormous amounts of time.
And just because there are members of this
chamber who don't believe that HIV is much of
a risk, I assure you all that will be little
comfort to that individual who receives a
needle stick while transporting an
HIV-positive individual or receive -- doesn't
wear a mask while treating someone who has
tuberculosis.
And then the question was asked
4545
what difference would it make, what different
behavior would occur for the EMT who was
informed of this after transporting the
individual. You know what the response is,
Mr. President? The response is that if they
received a needle stick during that
transportation because they were working on
that patient, then they'd go and they'd get
checked. Then perhaps they'd receive -- if
they did incur the disease, they'd receive the
medicines that perhaps could keep them alive.
That's the difference in behavior.
That's why this issue is important,
and that's why I'm going to vote in favor of
it, Mr. President. Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Balboni will be recorded in the affirmative.
Continue to call the roll slowly.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Bonacic.
SENATOR BONACIC: Yes.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Breslin, excused.
Senator Bruno.
(Senator Bruno was recorded as
voting in the affirmative.)
4546
THE SECRETARY: Senator Connor.
(Senator Connor was recorded as
voting in the negative.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator
DeFrancisco.
SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator
Dollinger.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: To explain my
vote, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger, to explain his vote.
SENATOR DOLLINGER: There is a
very simple answer to this problem. And one
of the smartest things we've done in public
health in this state is get three words out,
three words that solve this problem and to the
best of my knowledge have been followed by
everybody in the public health area: Use
universal precautions.
Whether it's somebody on the floor
that you don't know anything about or somebody
in an automobile accident, we don't need to
ask whether they've got tuberculosis or HIV.
We don't need to know if they've got any
4547
health problems. The answer is the way to
protect yourself if you're a health-care
worker, whether you're the EMT greeting them
at the first moment or whether you're in the
operating room or whether you're in the
hospital, is use universal precautions.
The best I can tell, the fear that
Senator LaValle's bill is designed to protect
has never happened in this state. And all
this bill does is this says there's something
to be afraid of. I would suggest this bill
will not change people's behavior, because if
they're using the right behavior in the first
place and using universal precautions, the
problem that Senator LaValle's bill is
designed to address will never come about.
And in fact -- again, I stand to be corrected
by Senator LaValle if I'm wrong -- in fact has
never come about in this state, because the
word has gotten out to people in the EMT
business, as it has to nurses and people in
the hospitals: Use universal precautions.
Take care of yourself. Make sure you use
them, and you will diminish if not completely
eliminate the risk of transmission of any
4548
disease.
That's the way to do this. This
bill I think is well-intentioned but I think
is ignoring the critical solution of this
problem. Three words, use universal
precautions -- and we will never need this
bill.
I vote no.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Dollinger will be recorded in the negative.
The Secretary will continue to call
the roll.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Duane.
SENATOR DUANE: Mr. President, if
I may explain my vote.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Duane, to explain his vote.
SENATOR DUANE: I do want to add,
because I was a little bit disturbed about one
comment, that I know many, many people with
AIDS and HIV that live throughout New York
State, including in Senator LaValle's
district, and in my own district there are
many, many firefighters who live, many EMTs
who live. I think we were talking about this.
4549
It's not my constituency versus someone else's
constituency. I think what we're talking
about is the state of New York and how it is
we can best protect the public health of the
people in the state of New York.
I -- though I think my views were
fairly broadly expressed, but I do want to
remind people this is expressing a problem
which is not, and that there are enormous
risks to passing this legislation both from a
public-health point of view and from
protecting the ability of all New Yorkers to
get prompt and good health care.
And I vote no. Thank you.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Duane will be recorded in the negative.
The Secretary will continue to call
the roll.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator
Fuschillo.
SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Gentile.
SENATOR GENTILE: Yes.
4550
THE SECRETARY: Senator Gonzalez.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon.
SENATOR HANNON: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Hevesi.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Hoffmann.
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Kuhl.
SENATOR KUHL: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Lachman.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Lack.
SENATOR LACK: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle.
SENATOR LAVALLE: To explain my
vote.
4551
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle, to explain his vote.
SENATOR LAVALLE: Mr. President,
we've read most sections of the bill -
there's really not that much to this bill -
in answer to specific questions. And I think
that there are broader concerns that are being
raised that really do not concern this bill.
I would think that any person,
regardless of whether they use -- and I think
Senator Dollinger is right, are using
universal precautions. But as I indicated, in
giving an injection to someone it can slip, go
through the rubber gloves. I think that
person, after the treatment, after the
treatment, would want to know for themselves
and their family if they needed to do
something to deal with a health problem.
This bill I think goes a long way
in dealing with the situations. And I wish I
had actual cases that I could talk about. But
in a state as large as the state of New York,
to think that there has not been several
incidents where people had a problem and were
not notified I think is to put our heads in
4552
the sand.
And I would ask that my colleagues
look at this bill for what it is, a
notification bill that will allow our
emergency-respond personnel, whether they be
in the city of New York, in rural, in suburban
communities throughout the state, to at least
know if there is a problem that they must deal
with that problem.
I vote aye, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
LaValle will be recorded in the affirmative.
Continue to call the roll.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell.
SENATOR LEIBELL: Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Leibell, to explain his vote.
SENATOR LEIBELL: First, I want
to compliment Senator LaValle for this
legislation. I've worked for many years with
the emergency services personnel in the Hudson
Valley, and I know what a difficult job it is
they have. Maybe at times it even seems to be
a thankless one. Whether it's unique to this
age or not, there are certainly many
4553
communicable diseases that are out there that
can make their jobs all the more dangerous and
cause concern not only for these dedicated
people but also for their families.
I think this legislation, quite
frankly, is the bare minimum that we can do
for these good people to say we understand
what they do, how difficult it is, at times
how dangerous. Hopefully by passage of this
legislation we will let them know this and
we'll give their families a greater sense of
certainty with respect to any problem diseases
or communicable diseases that they may
confront.
I'm very pleased to be one of the
sponsors on Senator LaValle's legislation, and
I'm very pleased to support this bill.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Leibell will be recorded in the affirmative.
The Secretary will continue to call
the roll slowly.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous.
SENATOR LIBOUS: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Maltese.
SENATOR MALTESE: Aye.
4554
THE SECRETARY: Senator
Marcellino.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Marcellino, to explain his vote.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes,
Mr. President. I too would like to rise and,
in explaining my vote, thank my colleague,
Senator LaValle, for bringing up this
particular piece of legislation. I'd also
like to thank Senator Duane for expressing his
point of view with vigor, with passion, and
with obvious concern.
We talk about protecting the rights
of the individual. That certainly is
paramount in everything we do here. The
question comes down to which individual in
this case -- the individual who is in need of
health services or the individual who is
volunteering to provide those health services?
Whose rights are paramount? Whose concerns
are greater?
I suggest to you, as an honorary
volunteer fireman in my community, knowing
full well that our voluntary fire departments
on Long Island and throughout the state are
4555
having difficulty getting volunteers -- young
men, young women are fearful of volunteering,
especially for the EMT services. There is a
fear and a concern. That's why this
legislation is being proposed. We're trying
to find a way to ease their concerns.
Is education important?
Absolutely. Should an educational component
be part of the training of these individuals?
Absolutely. Nobody argues that point. But to
characterize this bill as merely a feel-good
bill and dismiss it in that way I think is
wrong. It's wrong. It just takes away the
concerns that these people have.
You want to protect the rights of
individuals? Who doesn't? I'll go back to my
earlier question. Which individual's rights
are paramount? Which individual's rights
deserve to be protected? I suggest
everybody's rights have to be protected, the
volunteer as well as the person in need of
medical attention. If we don't have
volunteers, we don't have appropriate medical
attention in the suburbs. It will cost us
lives if fear drives people away from
4556
volunteering.
Mr. President, this is a bill whose
time has come, it's a bill that's important.
I vote aye and urge all my colleagues to vote
likewise.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Marcellino will be recorded in the
affirmative.
The Secretary will continue to call
the roll.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Marchi.
SENATOR MARCHI: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator
Markowitz.
SENATOR MARKOWITZ: No.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz.
SENATOR MAZIARZ: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator McGee.
SENATOR McGEE: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Meier.
SENATOR MEIER: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Mendez.
SENATOR MENDEZ: No.
THE SECRETARY: Senator
Montgomery.
4557
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Montgomery, to explain her vote.
SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes,
Mr. President, to briefly explain my vote.
Certainly I can understand the
concern that Senator LaValle has. But I think
it is totally unconscionable that we in this
state would have any health professional
working in any capacity without a complete and
full understanding of all of the implications
of communicable diseases, no matter what they
are.
So it seems to me that that would
be the first thing that we would want to do,
is to mandate that every health professional
have this information, have an understanding,
be educated and prepared in how to protect
themselves no matter where they are in the
health care arena.
So since that's not what we're
discussing, I'm going to vote no on this
legislation.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Montgomery will be recorded in the negative.
The Secretary will continue to call
4558
the roll.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Morahan.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Morahan, to explain his vote.
SENATOR MORAHAN: Mr. President,
I rise in support of the bill.
In the recent past, within two
years in Rockland County we lost three
volunteers who were actively involved in
saving the lives of others. Those volunteers
were prepared at that time to give their lives
for their fellow residents and neighbors. And
I think we owe them something that would offer
them some protection in the event of an
accident.
You can train people -- doctors are
trained, nurses are trained. They know all
about the risks that are involved in rendering
services to those who are ill or in an
accident. But notwithstanding the training,
accidents do occur.
And I think it would be remiss of
me, in recognition of those three volunteers
who died in Rockland County within two years,
three separate instances, that if they were
4559
rendering a service that was to protect others
and were willing to give their lives, then I
think we owe them a debt and I think we owe
them -- unpaid people, by the way, and
volunteers -- and we owe them some obligation.
And I believe this is a move in the
right direction. I support the bill. I vote
yes, Mr. President.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Morahan will be recorded in the affirmative.
The Secretary will continue to call
the roll.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Nanula.
SENATOR NANULA: No.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato.
SENATOR ONORATO: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator
Oppenheimer.
SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: To explain
my vote, briefly.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Oppenheimer, to explain her vote.
SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: I'm going
4560
to be voting in favor of this bill, even
though I recognize some of its failings and
even though I think education is the best road
to safety and prevention.
But we have run into, in our
community, the same thing that was stressed by
Senator Marcellino, in that we have people who
are very concerned and therefore are hesitant
to come forth and volunteer in our EMS. It is
very important to us; we have no paid
personnel. And I think if it is just to
alleviate some fears, I -- I know the
importance of education. My husband has
hepatitis C, which he got from transfusions,
multiple transfusions about 40 years ago. And
I know the precautions we all have to take in
our family. So definitely education is the
route.
But in the meantime, in order to
encourage people to come forward and continue
to volunteer, which is so -- we are so reliant
on, I'm going to vote in favor.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Oppenheimer will be voted in the affirmative.
The Secretary will continue to call
4561
the roll.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Padavan, to explain his vote.
SENATOR PADAVAN: Mr. President,
I rise to explain my vote.
First, let me compliment Senator
LaValle for having presented this bill to us.
Over a period of time I've had discussions
with the chairman of our Health Committee
about this issue in a broader sense.
My son, those of you who may be
aware of it, is an emergency medicine
physician. He works in an emergency ward in a
rather large hospital in the metropolitan
area. He also trains -- part of his
responsibility -- EMTs from time to time who
take courses that he gives.
He has told me that one of the
problems that they are faced with is lack of
awareness in every instance when something
occurs as to the condition that that patient
or potential patient has. And he has brought
that home very directly on more than one
occasion when he personally was stuck with a
4562
needle, and then everybody had to scurry
around and find out what that particular
patient may or may not have had in terms of a
communicable disease.
There should be total disclosure to
all health-care providers when they have been
put in harm's way in the course of their
dedicated responsibility. And this bill goes
in that direction. We should go even beyond
this. There should be no reason, when a nurse
or a physician or a technician is a recipient
of an errant needle, or in an emergency ward
where blood is flying in all different
directions, it's spattered -- or whatever the
case may be -- that that person shouldn't have
the opportunity of knowing, even if it's after
the fact, what they've been exposed to.
I might also add that Senator
LaValle refers to suburban areas with
volunteer ambulance corps. Well, in my
district in the city of New York, I have eight
volunteer ambulance corps. And as Senator
Marcellino indicated, the problem is getting
people to volunteer their time. And many of
them are young people, and their parents are
4563
cautioning them, don't get involved in this.
And so whatever way we can deal
with this issue in an enlightened and very
straightforward manner, I believe we should.
I vote aye.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Padavan will be recorded in the affirmative.
The Secretary will continue to call
the roll slowly.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Paterson.
ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER: Senator
Paterson, to explain his vote.
SENATOR PATERSON: Mr. President,
very briefly.
I was very pleased to hear Senator
Marcellino and Senator Balboni appreciating
the work of their colleagues Senator Duane and
Senator LaValle and the points that they both
added to this discussion, which I thought was
actually very enlightening for all of us.
I would just like to point out an
issue that I don't think was raised through
this entire discussion. And that is the best
protection to an individual who feels that he
or she may have been exposed is through the
4564
testing procedure. Even if someone who is
being transported does suffer from one of the
diseases that was listed, it is not automatic
that the disease was transferred to the
volunteer or the health care professional.
The best method of finding that out is through
testing.
If a person feels that for any
reason they might have come in contact with a
needle or something that could have
transferred the disease, the best remedy is to
perform a test.
Now, ten years ago that would have
been very difficult, because ten years ago it
took six months before the HIV virus, for
example, could even be identified through a
test. Now it can be done in a couple of days,
and any prophylactic procedures that might
want to take place could take place.
So I would suggest that that would
be the best remedy. I would be very
interested in reading any cases where anyone,
acting as a volunteer or otherwise in the
transportation of individuals who had some of
the diseases that were listed -- I'd be very
4565
interested in knowing whether or not anybody
ever acquired any of these diseases in that
particular fashion.
Otherwise, I vote no,
Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson,
you will be so recorded as voting in the
negative.
The Secretary will continue to call
the roll.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Rath.
SENATOR RATH: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Rosado.
SENATOR ROSADO: No.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland.
SENATOR SALAND: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Sampson.
SENATOR SAMPSON: No.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Santiago.
SENATOR SANTIAGO: No.
THE SECRETARY: Senator
Schneiderman.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Madam
President, to explain my vote.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator
4566
Schneiderman, to explain your vote.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you,
Madam President.
I rise now because listening to
this debate -- and I appreciate the sincerity
of views on all sides, though -- but I'm
struck by something that troubles me. And
that's that it seems that as a matter of
public health, the issue is very clear. It's
been articulated by Senator Duane, Senator
Paterson, Senator Nanula, Senator Dollinger,
among others. And yet the public health
reality doesn't seem to be affecting the views
of those who are in support of this bill.
Several people have made comments that if
you're accidentally pricked by a needle, you
should know whether a person -- how a person
tests for various diseases so you'll know what
to do.
The public-health reality we know
is the opposite. If someone tests positive
for HIV, it doesn't mean you've got it. If
someone tests negative, it doesn't mean you're
in the clear.
I'm afraid what we're doing here is
4567
sending a message that your behavior should
vary. That is a very bad message to send. It
is wrong as a matter of public health. And I
don't want people walking around thinking, oh,
someone didn't test positive, I'm in the
clear. If you're pricked by a needle -- and
several people have said this -- you go out
and get the precautions no matter what. I
don't care how someone tests.
We are sending a very bad message
here if we're sending the message that a test
tells you what to do. The public health
regulations and policies tell you what to do
no matter how the test comes out.
So what are we left with? We know
you're supposed to take universal precautions
in all circumstances. We're left with trying
to identify a group of people not for any
public-health reason, but I'm afraid for some
of the reasons that Senator Paterson, Duane,
and others have expressed. Which is that
we're dealing with a situation where there is
a lot of prejudice and there is a desire to
take punitive action against some individuals.
And I think that we have to look very
4568
carefully at what we're doing.
But I'm more concerned, as I listen
to this, that by passing this bill we're not
just doing something that is perhaps neutral
as a matter of public health, but that we're
sending a message to people that if someone
doesn't test positive for HIV and you're
exposed to them, that you're in the clear.
That is a very bad message to send. I think
that we should all recognize that as a matter
of public health, and I don't think that's the
sponsor's intent.
I'm afraid that passing this bill
may have a very negative consequence, so I
vote no.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator
Schneiderman, you will be recorded as voting
in the negative.
The Secretary will continue to call
the roll.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Seabrook.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward.
SENATOR SEWARD: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos.
4569
SENATOR SKELOS: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith.
SENATOR SMITH: No.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Spano.
SENATOR SPANO: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator
Stachowski.
SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Stafford.
SENATOR STAFFORD: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky,
excused.
Senator Trunzo.
SENATOR TRUNZO: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Velella.
SENATOR VELELLA: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker.
SENATOR VOLKER: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Waldon.
SENATOR WALDON: No.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Wright.
SENATOR WRIGHT: Aye.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will call the absentees.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley.
4570
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Gonzalez.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Goodman.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Hevesi.
SENATOR HEVESI: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Johnson.
SENATOR JOHNSON: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Kruger.
(No response.)
THE SECRETARY: Senator Lachman.
SENATOR LACHMAN: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin.
SENATOR LARKIN: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio.
SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Aye.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Seabrook.
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will announce the results.
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 40. Nays,
14.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
4571
Senator Santiago.
SENATOR SANTIAGO: Madam
President, I request unanimous consent to be
recorded on Calendar Number 1216, Bill Number
5. In the negative, I'm sorry. In the
negative.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Santiago,
you will be so recorded as voting in the
negative, without objection.
Senator Nanula.
SENATOR NANULA: Thank you, Madam
President. I too would like to request
unanimous request to be recorded in the
negative on Calendar Number 1216.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Nanula,
you will be so recorded as voting in the
negative on Calendar Number 1216.
SENATOR NANULA: Thank you, Madam
President.
THE PRESIDENT: You're welcome.
Senator Skelos.
SENATOR SKELOS: Yes, Madam
President. I know there is at least one more
bill to do today, but Senator Bruno asked that
I would mention to the members of the Majority
4572
that following session there will be a
conference, Majority conference.
THE PRESIDENT: Following
session, there will be a Majority conference.
Senator Gentile.
SENATOR GENTILE: Yes, Madam
President. I'd like unanimous consent to be
recorded in the negative on Calendar Numbers
658 and 779.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Gentile,
you will be so recorded as voting in the
negative.
SENATOR GENTILE: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Hevesi.
SENATOR HEVESI: Madam President,
I rise to request unanimous consent to be
recorded in the negative on Calendar 1216,
Senate Print 5.
THE PRESIDENT: Without
objection, you will be so recorded as voting
in the negative.
SENATOR HEVESI: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator
Schneiderman.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, thank
4573
you, Madam President. I request unanimous
consent to be recorded as voting in the
negative on Calendar 658.
THE PRESIDENT: Without
objection, you will be so recorded as voting
in the negative on Calendar 658.
Senator Lachman.
SENATOR LACHMAN: With unanimous
consent, I'd like to be recorded in the
negative on Item Senate 1290.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Lachman,
you will be so recorded as voting in the
negative on 1290.
Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
President, at the close of session today there
will be an immediate meeting of the Minority
in the Minority Conference Room, Room Number
314.
THE PRESIDENT: At the close of
session there will be an immediate meeting of
the Minority -- what room was that, Senator
Paterson?
SENATOR PATERSON: Excuse me,
Madam President? Say again?
4574
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't hear the
room, the location of the Minority Conference.
SENATOR PATERSON: Oh, it's 314.
Just like pi, Madam President.
THE PRESIDENT: In Room 314.
Thank you, Senator, for that clarification.
Senator Lachman. Senator Lachman,
there is no 1290 on the calendar, sir.
SENATOR LACHMAN: Okay. Thank
you.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson,
why do you rise?
SENATOR PATERSON: No reason.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator
Marcellino, shall we continue with the
controversial calendar, please.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, Madam
President. Will you call up Senator
Hoffmann's bill, please.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1242, by Senator Hoffmann, Senate Print 5054,
an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law
and the Insurance Law, in relation to
4575
exclusion.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Read the
last section.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect on the 180th day.
SENATOR PATERSON: Explanation.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Hoffmann,
an explanation has been requested.
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you. I
would be pleased to give an explanation to
Senator Paterson on this very important bill.
In the field of agriculture there
is a disparity between the type of vehicles
used for farm activity and vehicles which can
be used for other passenger activity.
Unfortunately, the current restrictions
require people who have farm vehicles to carry
insurance just as they would for a passenger
vehicle in most cases. This bill will simply
allow a change in the insurance laws that
would -- so that farm-registered vehicles
would be treated the same way as ordinary farm
machinery is now covered.
4576
Let me explain that in a little bit
more detail for those of you who might be less
familiar with agricultural practices. When
planting, it is very common to use a flatbed
truck that's been modified to carry large bags
of seeds out to the field. This truck
generally has little other application on the
farm, and it does not go more than a few miles
in any direction from the barn or the place
where it would be garaged. The same is true
for other vehicles sometimes used as snowplows
and winter vehicles, or vehicles which are
used to transport pieces of machinery to and
from a field. The other type of usage that
would be covered under this would be a vehicle
used exclusively or primarily for
transportation to the sanitary landfill or
resource recovery station.
Under the farm registration
requirements currently in effect for farm
vehicles, the routing and range and usage of a
vehicle is already established at the time of
registration. The registration fee is only
$6.50 a year. It's considerably less than
would be the registration cost if the vehicle
4577
had any other use at all.
Unfortunately, even though the farm
plates are on this type of vehicle, at the
present time farmers are still required to
carry individual no-fault insurance. The bill
would address that issue by allowing the
farmers to have insurance carried by their
umbrella farm policy. Most farms carry at
least a million dollars. The majority of them
carry several million dollars on their farms,
which cover all of their vehicles.
There is simply no difference in
the application of this type of vehicle on a
farm activity from a tractor which presently
is covered under the umbrella policy and does
not have individual liability coverage.
I urge all of my colleagues to
support this very worthwhile bill. I know
that everybody in this chamber wishes the
farmers of this state goodwill and reasonable
expenses and does not want to see the cost of
doing business in any way made unfair by
archaic legislation. This is just an attempt
to correct some inequities that have been on
the books for too long.
4578
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
President, if Senator Hoffmann would yield for
a couple of questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Hoffmann,
will you yield for a couple of -
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Certainly.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, to
what extent does the umbrella policy that you
just described cover these vehicles if they
are on public roads at the time that perhaps
some accident occurred?
SENATOR HOFFMANN: They're
covered.
SENATOR PATERSON: So in other
words, a person who was injured inadvertently
from an accident with a farm vehicle on a
public road would be no less covered than if
the -
SENATOR HOFFMANN: They would be
no less covered, Senator Paterson.
If somebody was injured in the
vicinity of my farm while I was driving a
4579
farm-registered vehicle, under this statute
they would be covered just the same as if I
was driving one of my other vehicles.
SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
President, if the Senator would continue to
yield.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator, will you
continue to yield?
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Yes, I'll
continue to yield.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Certainly if
this is an inequity, Senator, we would -- we
really should clear it up. And Senator Kuhl
had offered this legislation in the past, and
we're happy to see that you also -
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Madam
President, I'm having trouble hearing Senator
Paterson. I apologize.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson,
could you raise your voice volume, please?
SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Madam
President. What I was just saying, if the
Senator would continue to yield -
4580
SENATOR HOFFMANN: And I am
yielding.
SENATOR PATERSON: -- is that one
of the concerns that has been voiced in the
past -- we've had this legislation before -
is the issue of litigation, whether or not a
person who would be injured in an action
caused by a vehicle would have a possibility
of bringing action and receiving damages.
If what Senator Hoffmann is saying
is correct, which is that there'd be no
difference in the liability, then my question
to Senator Hoffmann is, how did the inequity
exist in the first place?
SENATOR HOFFMANN: I would state,
Madam President, that I'm really not in a
position to elaborate at any great detail how
this particular statute has existed so long.
But my personal guess would be that at the
time this particular statute was put into
effect, there were fewer vehicles in use and
there were more people like myself who used
oxen and draft horses for some of their farm
activities.
I think this is just an indication
4581
that we are finally recognizing the use of
more motorized activity in other forms of
agriculture. There probably was less of an
awareness in times past. And also, the cost
of all insurance back before we were such a
litigious society was considerably less. But
at the present time, the cost of insurance has
increased dramatically. And to have an
individual policy on any vehicle required to
have farm plates on a farm can be very
expensive.
It's only reasonable that farmers,
who historically have very few claims filed
against them for any of the type of activities
described by Senator Paterson, should be
spared the cost of carrying unnecessary,
burdensome, and duplicative insurance. Their
umbrella policy covering all of their
farm-plated vehicles is more than adequate.
And the record will reflect that farmers in
this state drive safely, operate machinery
safely, and do not deserve to be sued by
people who are litigious by nature.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
4582
Madam President. If the Senator would
continue to yield.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator -
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Yes, I will
continue to yield.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, I
don't think that we're making any presumptions
about anybody and their driving habits as a
class of people. There are individuals who
violate all of our motor vehicle laws every
day, but as a class of people I don't think
that farmers or any other profession -
outside of legislators -- might abuse the
motor vehicle laws.
But the question that I asked
previously, and am restating not for the
purpose of the integrity of your answer but
just out of clarification -- you are saying,
if I understand you correctly, that even if
the vehicle is used in an activity that's not
related to farm work, that the umbrella policy
would still cover any damage or injury caused
by the use of the vehicle?
4583
In other words, the umbrella policy
extends beyond farm work and covers the
vehicle if, let's say, someone took the
flatbed truck and just was driving it on the
New York State Thruway for some other reason?
It would still be covered by the umbrella
policy; is that correct?
SENATOR HOFFMANN: If the vehicle
leaves the designated routing and is not in
compliance with the requirements of the farm
plates, there would be some liability. But I
could not conjecture a guess as to whether
that liability would exceed the umbrella
policy. I suppose there would be lawyers that
would be actively looking for an opportunity
to sue somebody in a case like that.
But the simple fact of the matter
is the farmers of this state have no reason to
want to breach the law in that manner. They
would not risk such exposure, and such
vehicles are designed for single-purpose use
only. They are exclusively farm vehicles.
Instead of looking for ways to find
farmers not in compliance with their own
practices that could lead to a potential
4584
lawsuit, I think it -- I have to come back to
the main point that I made at the outset. The
farmers of this state operate their machinery
in a safe and appropriate way. This measure
simply brings the registration and insurance
compliance together under the current standing
of farm usage today, Senator Paterson.
I realize that it's difficult for
somebody unfamiliar with agricultural
practices -- and, for that matter, who doesn't
drive too often himself -- to understand this
situation. And, Senator Paterson, I assure
you you have nothing to fear from the farmers
of this state driving a flatbed tractor truck
with farm plates on it or a motorized hay
vehicle or a forage wagon or a yard truck with
a plow on it.
The farmers of this state are
simply looking to save a modest amount of
money in their farm expenses by having the
farm plate and insurance requirements
synchronized.
SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
President -
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson.
4585
SENATOR PATERSON: -- if the
Senator would continue to yield.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator, do you
continue to yield?
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Yes, I would.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, in a
case where a person would be hit by a flatbed
truck that, let's say, was on a public highway
away from the farm, in a single incidence was
being operated off the farm itself and is now
on a public thoroughfare, the victim of the
accident compared to the victim of a car
accident that could have taken place in the
same place at the same time is possibly
precluded from recovering because the vehicle
may have exceeded the liability as set forth
by the umbrella policy for the farm and now
has no insurance; is that not correct?
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator
Paterson, would you restate your question?
That was a long statement, and I'm not sure I
understand exactly what the thrust of your
question is.
4586
SENATOR PATERSON: If a person
was hit by a flatbed truck instead of a car,
there's a difference in the amount of money,
in the amount of damages they might receive
because the car is covered by automobile
insurance; the flatbed truck may not have any
insurance because it's exceeded the
prescription of what the umbrella policy to
the farm allows.
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator
Paterson, farmers in this state maintain a
very large amount of insurance coverage in
their umbrella policies that would cover such
a situation. That's the first point.
The second point is if the farm
vehicle is not operating in compliance with
its legally designated farm-plate capability,
then that farmer would in fact be liable for a
criminal charge.
The farmers are not going to place
themselves in such a situation where they
could be at risk, number one. And, number
two, these vehicles in most cases aren't
capable of being used in ways that would take
them out of the required -- the prescribed
4587
farm use.
SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
President -
SENATOR HOFFMANN: You are
simply -- I -- I must -- I must state for the
record that the line of the questions implies
criminal intent on the part of the farmers of
this state. And on behalf of the farmers of
this state, I want to make very clear that
that is an erroneous conclusion and one that
many farmers would find offensive.
Secondly, it is also the intent of
the farmers of this state to always maintain
an adequate amount of insurance to cover any
type of contingency. And I would hope that my
esteemed colleague, Senator Paterson, would
recognize that as professionals operating
businesses, they would of course maintain the
necessary insurance to cover any contingency,
even ones that might not be easily foreseen in
the course of operating farm vehicles.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
President, if the Senator would continue to
yield.
4588
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Yes, I will.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, Senator
Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: I said, Madam
President, and the record will reflect that in
a single instance Senator Hoffmann is
associating my remarks with a class of people.
None of those remarks were directed that way.
As a matter of fact, I didn't even say that a
farmer would be driving the vehicle.
If Senator Hoffmann would turn her
attention to what I said about the insurance
policy, I was not commenting on the numerical
value in terms of dollars of the policy. I
was questioning whether or not the policy
would relate to that kind of an accident. And
that kind of an accident may or may not be
criminal in nature, but criminality was not an
issue I was addressing in the questioning at
all.
I was addressing the civil
liability of the operator of the vehicle if
the vehicle had an accident. We have had
accidents from time to time in this state
caused from a variety of sources, of which all
4589
of us in society are often the catalyst. But
in a particular situation, on the part of the
person who might be victimized through an
accident, we want to make sure that all of New
York State's residents are afforded -- we want
to make sure that all of New York State's
residents are afforded at least an opportunity
to receive damages or at least to sue in a
civil court.
And what I'm trying to get from
Senator Hoffmann, Madam President, if she
continues to yield, is if in the event this
policy doesn't cover this, what remedy the
victim has.
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Madam
President, through the Chair.
Once again, Senator Paterson has
phrased his question in such a way that he
indicates a lack of knowledge of the
operations of New York State agriculture. And
I must inform Senator Paterson again that the
policy requires -- that the farm policy and
the farm plates require the farmers to
maintain exactly the type of insurance in the
amount that he is hoping they would maintain.
4590
The citizens of this state who
could come into contact with a farm-plated
vehicle under some of the hard-to-imagine
circumstances described by Senator Paterson
would not in any way be jeopardized from
recovery on a scale that they would be able to
recover today.
SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
Madam President. On the bill.
Unfortunately, it did not appear
that Senator Hoffmann was ever able to
distinguish between the situation that exists
on the farm and anywhere else. The reality is
that when a vehicle leaves that territory -
and at the time of a possible accident, it
might not be in the contemplation of the
driver which property they're actually on -
the policy may be affected by where the
vehicle is at that particular time.
If the policy does not cover
damages beyond what is the actual use as
prescribed in the policy, now the victim has a
problem of dealing with an uninsured vehicle.
There may not be any criminality involved, but
that's actually irrelevant to the point.
4591
The point is actually that in terms
of assessing what the rights of the victim may
be, if we bar those rights through this
legislation and have estopped the victim from
having any collateral action against the
person who may have caused damage, we have
hindered the opportunity of individuals, who
may themselves be farmers, from recovering.
So I like the way Senator Hoffmann
set forth in the legislation the way this
could be cured. If it was more specific as to
what the parameters were of the -
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Hoffmann,
why do you rise?
SENATOR HOFFMANN: I wonder if
Senator Paterson would yield for a question
himself.
SENATOR PATERSON: Certainly.
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Senator
Paterson, when you raised the question that a
farm vehicle could be involved or in the
unlikely case that a farm vehicle could be
involved in an accident on the New York State
Thruway, was it because you were under the
impression that such a vehicle could not be on
4592
a public road?
SENATOR PATERSON: No, the
vehicle could quite properly be on a public
road. The question is what would happen when
it is on a public road.
SENATOR HOFFMANN: And I'm -
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Hoffmann.
SENATOR HOFFMANN: Thank you,
Madam President.
To further clarify for Senator
Paterson an area where he seems to still be
confused, farm-plated vehicles are entitled to
be on public roads at the present time. And
with the change in the insurance requirements,
there would be no distinction between the way
they are used today and the way they would be
used then. It would simply be a reduced cost
of the coverage because the umbrella policy
would be in effect.
But there is no reason why a farm
vehicle cannot be on a public road if,
according to the farm plates, it is one of the
designated routes and part of the designated
responsibilities of such a vehicle. That is
consistent with contemporary farming activity
4593
today. It is already regulated by Motor
Vehicles.
And this simply brings the
insurance requirements into the appropriate
relationship with the use of that vehicle.
Since it's not used, cannot be used, would
have no purpose in being used as a passenger
vehicle on the New York State Thruway, as
Senator Paterson described, the scenario
characterized by Senator Paterson would not be
a likely scenario and in fact could not occur
under most characterizations by this law.
Does that help you, Senator
Paterson?
SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
President, on the bill.
THE PRESIDENT: On the bill,
Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: We're really
not here to determine what the likely
circumstances are. In fact, most legal
actions involve unlikely circumstances. And
so when we look at a situation as described in
Senator Hoffmann's bill -- she's talking about
the operation of vehicles between a farm and
4594
another farm -- it is possible that between a
farm and another farm that the public highways
might be used, because they might connect the
farms or they might for any reason be used by
farm-plated vehicles.
Hearing no definitive answer as to
where a policy restricts recovery, and being
provided with information that the policies
beyond a certain point do restrict recovery,
we're saying that you do not ever want to have
the dangerous precedent in a law where, when
an accident occurs, there is a difference in
the recovery based on the -- who actually hit
the individual.
Now, we have situations where
people, regular citizens, whatever it is they
do, are driving uninsured vehicles. And the
unfortunate problem for the victim is that
they can't recover civilly in these
situations. What we're suggesting is that we
don't want to prescribe into the law a
situation that usually happens in the rarest
of circumstances, where an individual is
operating a vehicle without insurance. We
don't want to codify a situation where that
4595
could possibly happen so that some prospective
victim in an unlikely case in the future -
this is not the kind of thing that would
happen every day, but it does happen. And in
those situations, we wouldn't want one of our
constituents, perhaps one of Senator
Hoffmann's, constituents to be put in the
situation -
THE PRESIDENT: Senator -
Senator Kuhl, why do you rise?
SENATOR KUHL: I was so
entertained and enthralled with Senator
Paterson's discussion on this bill that it
brought back some historic visions. I was a
sponsor of a bill five years ago that became
law which I sense, I think, brought about this
discussion and Senator Hoffmann's proposal.
So I was just wondering, having
been lured, I think, into this discussion, as
to whether or not Senator Paterson would yield
to a question.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson,
will you yield to a question?
SENATOR PATERSON: I'd be most
happy to, Madam President.
4596
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, Senator
Kuhl.
SENATOR KUHL: Senator Paterson,
I was listening to your questions, and I
apologize for not being here at the beginning
of the debate, so I may have missed this and
you may have answered this question or even
discussed this before. But you recall, do you
not, the passage of the bill back in 1994 that
dealt with allowing for some differences
relative to what we call farm-plated vehicles
meeting certain safety standards because of
their abnormal usage in the field on farms and
their limited usage on farms and therefore
they were given an exemption in meeting
certain requirements? Do you recall that?
SENATOR PATERSON: Yes, Senator,
I recall it, and I actually voted for it.
SENATOR KUHL: I thought you did.
I thought you did. Because I know that
there's a tremendous sympathy with upstate New
York and the farming community in your heart.
But in part of that bill was a
requirement, and at the time I was a little
hesitant about its inclusion in the bill, for
4597
insurance on these vehicles. Do you recall
that particular provision?
SENATOR PATERSON: I don't recall
the particular provision. But I would -- I
didn't realize that insurance was included in
that.
SENATOR KUHL: Yeah. We -- it
used to be that these farm vehicles were not
required to be insured. But because we were
changing the registration and safety
requirements for them, it was thought that
maybe there was a need for them to be insured
because now we are actually authorizing them
as a state for usage on the public highways.
Because many of the farms out in
the western part of the state and the northern
part of the state have fields that are
significant distances apart and only connected
by public highways. And so if these vehicles
were then going to be moving about on these
highways, either taking their crop back to the
home farm and then it being transported to
market by other normally registered vehicles
or whatever, that there was some exposure.
And so there was a requirement put in place
4598
for insurance.
Now, you -- you don't -- you say
you don't remember that particular provision.
SENATOR PATERSON: No, I didn't
remember it being in that particular bill.
SENATOR KUHL: Well, since then,
for your benefit, since that time, because of
that additional requirement, we have found
that the availability of insurance under a
general liability policy was not necessarily
always available. And therefore these limited
usage vehicles were required to have separate
insurance policies placed on them, which added
expense, add an expense -- in some cases, a
very large expense -- to farmers.
Senator Hoffmann's proposal is an
attempt to try to minimize that expense and
take us back to ground zero, if you will, back
to 1994 as far as the expense to the farmers,
but to provide the same kind of coverage with
regard to insurance. And therefore, the
reason for this proposal is to include in a
general liability policy the requirement -- or
the availability of farm-plated vehicles to be
covered.
4599
Now, my question to you is, as a
lawyer you are aware of that saying that we
always had that you can't get blood out of a
stone? You remember that in law school;
right?
SENATOR PATERSON: I don't
remember that from law school, Senator, but I
have heard it.
SENATOR KUHL: It may have been
in one of those backyard battles that we had,
and you were the stone.
In any case, my thought to you, and
I guess my question was, you know, if an
individual in this situation -- I think just
to take you back to your question, if an
individual has an insurance policy -- I should
say if an individual is a victim of an
accident and that individual sues, and they
sue a person who has an insurance policy,
whether it's an automobile policy, whether
it's a general liability policy, whether it's
some sort of -- any kind of an insurance
policy, I think we all understand as lawyers
that you can reach a maximum of that policy
but there are further recoveries over and
4600
above that. Isn't that true?
SENATOR PATERSON: That is
correct, Senator.
SENATOR KUHL: So in the case of
a farmer who has a farm-plated vehicle which
is in his name or her name and in fact has a
policy, whether it's a general liability
policy or whether it happens to be an
automobile policy, and that vehicle is
involved in an accident, whether it's that
individual himself or an employee of that
individual, and in fact there is a lawsuit, we
understand fully that in fact, once the limits
of that policy are exhausted, that all of the
other assets of that individual now become
eligible for attachment as a result of any
kind of a subsequent recovery. It could be
the entire farm, it could be all the product
on the farm, it could be the cows on the farm,
it could be, you know, all of the other assets
of the farm. Anything that that individual
owns could be subject to recovery; isn't that
correct?
SENATOR PATERSON: Generally, you
are correct, Senator.
4601
SENATOR KUHL: So my point to
you, I guess in response to your dialogue,
from what I'm hearing -- and your questions I
thought were probably best answered by a
series of questions pointing out to you that
insurance coverage carried by a farm, whether
it's in the form of a general liability policy
or a strict automobile policy, is not going to
limit recovery to any victim of any accident.
But the only limit of the recovery will be the
total assets of the farm or the owner of that
vehicle that's involved in that accident.
And so my question to you is, after
you exhaust all of the assets, what more are
you looking for to protect the victims of
accidents in the state of New York?
SENATOR PATERSON: Madam
President.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: One of the
reasons that we have insurance is hopefully to
protect victims from any type of circumstance
from the possibility that the defendant in a
civil action doesn't have significant assets.
There are a number of ways beyond insurance
4602
policies that respondents in these types of
actions can protect their assets, shield their
assets, transfer their assets so that the
plaintiff is offered no real recovery. So the
insurance policy, as any active litigator will
tell you, is the best weapon of the plaintiff
in a civil action for recovery of damages.
What often happens to plaintiffs is
that it takes such a long time to secure the
attachments that literally the plaintiff can't
afford to continue the action. And one of the
biggest problems that anyone that's ever tried
to sue anyone has is that quite often they
don't have the resources or the wherewithal to
get to the defendant's assets, but they do
have the insurance policy.
Now, if Senator Kuhl would be
willing to yield for a question.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator, will you
yield for a question?
SENATOR KUHL: Absolutely.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, Senator
Paterson, you may proceed with a question.
SENATOR PATERSON: Senator, in my
original questioning -- and I don't know
4603
whether or not you were here -- in my original
questioning to Senator Hoffmann I asked her
the question -- it was the first question I
asked her -- whether or not the umbrella
policy of the farm would cover the vehicle
when it was on the public roads. And Senator
Hoffmann said yes.
In a second question to Senator
Hoffmann, I was a little bit more specific
about the activity of the actual umbrella
policy. And Senator Hoffmann the second time
said that there might be some limitation of
the liability. She was not exactly sure -
did not know specifically what the answer was.
I was wondering if you might be
able to offer us some further explanation of
what the restrictions are on the umbrella
policy of the farm as it relates to the
vehicle if the vehicle is traveling on the
public roads.
SENATOR KUHL: Senator, don't
misuse the terms "umbrella" and "general
liability." An umbrella policy is a policy
that covers in addition to every other policy
that's in effect. What we're talking about
4604
basically is the general liability policy.
So when you buy a home, you buy an
insurance policy that's a general liability
insurance. Also, it generally has fire
insurance coverage on it, maybe coverage for
other disasters. But there's a general
liability policy that covers other types of
general accidents.
Now, most farms that we have in the
State of New York are mortgaged. So what you
have is a requirement for a general liability
policy at least in the amount of the mortgage.
And those mortgages, I can tell you right now,
on the average are more than your basic
automobile insurance policy, which I believe
is a 25, 50, maybe 100 policy.
So on a single accident, maximum
coverage which is required on any kind of an
automobile in the State of New York is
$25,000. All of your general liability
policies -- all of your general liability
policies, as I understand -- I'll wait till
you get through, Senator.
All of your general liability
policies for the most part in New York are
4605
bigger than that. So the insured coverage for
a general liability policy will be greater
than automobile coverage.
Now, on that there are no
restrictions, as I would understand it, under
this bill with regard to ultimate recovery
relative to the policy dollar amount.
Now, over and above that, you could
go out and get an umbrella policy which would
raise the limits of that general liability
policy. Many people get, say, a $200,000 or
$300,000 policy, but they want to extend their
coverage up in limited circumstances. So
they'll go and they'll get an umbrella policy,
which is generally fairly cheap, which might
extend that maximum coverage up to a million
dollars.
Now, you have to have the general
liability policy to get the umbrella policy in
most instances. So what the bill calls for is
an inclusion in that general liability policy
of the farm vehicles. There would be no
restriction on any coverage under this
definition. And then the umbrella policy
would provide you a larger amount.
4606
So actually, under this proposal we
probably would be giving you that pocket to go
after of available money much larger than any
automobile policy in the state of New York
that currently exists.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Paterson.
SENATOR PATERSON: Senator,
believe it or not, Madam President, I think
we're actually getting somewhere.
So, Senator, just to verify that I
understand this, you are saying that through
the umbrella policy on top of the general
liability policy -- which I hope in your
answer you will clarify for me how many
farmers have it -- but in this scenario that
you've described, the deep pockets are
established? In other words, the vehicle is
protected, and the potential injury is
therefore insured; is that correct?
SENATOR KUHL: I think that's
correct, Senator.
SENATOR PATERSON: Thank you,
Senator.
THE PRESIDENT: Read the last
section.
4607
THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
act shall take effect on the 180th day.
THE PRESIDENT: Call the roll.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 56. Nays,
3. Senators Connor, Dollinger, and Duane
recorded in the negative.
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is
passed.
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
Madam President. May we lay aside Senate
Calendar Number 1236 for the day?
THE PRESIDENT: The bill is laid
aside for the day, Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: May we
return to reports of standing committees?
And I believe you have a report of
the Rules Committee at the desk. Can we have
it read at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: We'll return to
reports of standing committees. The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: Senator Bruno,
from the Committee on Rules, reports the
4608
following bills:
Senate Print 1290, by Senator Rath,
Concurrent Resolution of the Senate and
Assembly;
1842A, by Senator LaValle, an act
to amend the Education Law;
2214, by Senator Farley, an act to
amend the Labor Law;
2965, by Senator Lachman, an act to
authorize the City of New York to reconvey its
interest;
3200, by Senator Paterson, an act
authorizing the City of New York to reconvey
its interest;
3247, by Senator Kuhl, an act to
amend the Retirement and Social Security Law;
3997A, by Senator Farley, an act to
amend Chapter 334 of the Laws of 1998;
4115, by Senator Spano, an act to
amend Chapter 666 of the Laws of 1990;
4432A, by Senator Saland, an act to
amend the Family Court Act and the Civil
Practice Law and Rules;
4464, by Senator Nozzolio, an act
to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;
4609
4485, by Senator Trunzo, an act to
amend the Public Authorities Law;
4696, by Senator Hannon, an act to
amend the Public Health Law;
4874, by Senator Hannon, an act to
amend the Public Authorities Law;
4889A, by Senator Marchi, an act to
amend the Business Corporation Law;
5450, by Senator Leibell, an act to
amend the Public Officers Law;
5627, by the Senate Committee on
Rules, an act to amend the Tax Law;
5642A, by Senator Wright, an act to
amend the Environmental Conservation Law;
5654A, by Senator Maziarz, an act
to amend the General Municipal Law and the
Vehicle and Traffic Law;
5657A, by Senator Marcellino, an
act to amend Chapter 600 of the Laws of 1993;
5694, by Senator Maltese, an act to
amend the Public Authorities Law;
5695, by Senator Balboni, an act to
amend the Public Authorities Law;
5724, by Senator Saland, an act to
amend Chapter 55 of the Laws of 1992;
4610
5761, by Senator Johnson, an act to
authorize the North Babylon Union Free School
District;
5771, by Senator Morahan, an act to
amend the Social Services Law;
And 5800, by Senator Morahan, an
act to amend the Social Services Law.
All bills ordered direct for third
reading.
THE PRESIDENT: Without
objection, all bills ordered direct to third
reading.
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
Madam President. May we return to motions and
resolutions? I believe you have four
privileged resolutions by Senator Onorato at
the desk. May we have the -
THE PRESIDENT: Senator
Marcellino, we have to first accept the report
of the Rules Committee.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'm sorry, I
thought we moved to accept it.
THE PRESIDENT: The motion is to
accept the report of the Rules Committee. All
4611
in favor signify by saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay.
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: The report of the
Rules Committee is accepted.
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
Madam President. May we now return to motions
and resolutions?
We have four privileged resolutions
by Senator Onorato at the desk. May we have
the titles read, and move they be accepted.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: By Senators
Onorato, Trunzo and Maltese, Legislative
Resolution Number 1861, commending Edith
Louise Zuzolo upon the occasion of her
designation by the Order Sons of Italy in
America as the recipient of the Dr. Vincenzo
Sellaro Award.
THE PRESIDENT: The question is
on the resolution. All in favor signify by
saying aye.
4612
(Response of "Aye.")
THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay.
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: The resolution is
adopted.
The Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: By Senators
Onorato, Trunzo and Maltese, Legislative
Resolution Number 1862, honoring Father Donald
B. Licata in celebration of his 40th
anniversary of his ordination, to be
celebrated on June 11, 1999, during the Annual
Grand Convention of the Grand Lodge of the
State of New York Order Sons of Italy in
America.
THE PRESIDENT: The question is
on the resolution. All in favor signify by
saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay.
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: The resolution is
adopted.
The Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: By Senators
4613
Onorato, Trunzo and Maltese, Legislative
Resolution Number 1863, commending John B.
Dabbene upon the occasion of his designation
by the Order Sons of Italy in America as the
recipient of the 1999 Dr. Vincenzo Sellaro
Award.
THE PRESIDENT: The question is
on the resolution. All in favor signify by
saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay.
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: The resolution is
adopted.
The Secretary will read.
THE SECRETARY: By Senators
Onorato, Trunzo and Maltese, Legislative
Resolution Number 1864, commending Nicholas G.
Viglietta upon the occasion of his designation
by the Order Sons of Italy in America as the
recipient of the 1999 Bene Emeritus Award.
THE PRESIDENT: The question is
on the resolution. All in favor signify by
saying aye.
(Response of "Aye.")
4614
THE PRESIDENT: Opposed, nay.
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: The resolution is
adopted.
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
President, is there any other housekeeping at
the desk?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, there is,
Senator Marcellino.
Senator Rath.
SENATOR RATH: Yes, Madam
President. I'd like to request that my
sponsor star be removed from Calendar 1162.
Remove the star from 1162. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Without the
objection, the bill is starred.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Removed,
Madam President. The star is removed.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
Senator.
Without objection, the star is
removed.
Senator Schneiderman.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Madam
4615
President, I request unanimous consent to be
recorded in the negative on Calendar 1242.
THE PRESIDENT: You will be so
recorded, Senator Schneiderman, as voting in
the negative.
SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Without
objection.
Senator Balboni.
SENATOR BALBONI: Madam
President, I move that the -- to commit Senate
Print Number 16A, Calendar Number 48 on order
of third reading, to the Committee on Rules,
with the instruction to said committee to
strike out the enacting clause.
THE PRESIDENT: So ordered,
Senator Balboni.
SENATOR BALBONI: In addition to
which, I move once again to commit Senate
Print Number 17A, Calendar 49 on order of
third reading, to the Committee on Rules, with
instructions to said committee to strike out
the enacting clause.
THE PRESIDENT: So ordered,
Senator.
4616
SENATOR BALBONI: And lastly, I
move to commit Senate Print Number 20,
Calendar Number 51 on the order of third
reading, to the Committee on Rules, with once
again instructions to said committee to strike
out the enacting clause.
THE PRESIDENT: So ordered,
Senator Balboni.
SENATOR BALBONI: Thank you,
Madam President.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bonacic.
SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you,
Madam President. I wish to call up my bill,
Print Number 3661, recalled from the Assembly,
which is now at the desk.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
332, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 3661, an
act to amend the Private Housing Finance Law.
SENATOR BONACIC: Madam
President, I now move -
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bonacic.
SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you,
Madam President. I now move to reconsider the
4617
vote by which this bill was passed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will call the roll upon reconsideration.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bonacic.
SENATOR BONACIC: Madam
President, I now offer the following
amendments.
THE PRESIDENT: The amendment is
received.
SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you,
Madam President.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bonacic.
SENATOR BONACIC: Madam
President, I wish to call up my bill, Print
Number 3663, recalled from the Assembly, which
is now at the desk.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
1048, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 3663,
an act to amend Chapter 915 of the Laws of
1982.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bonacic.
4618
SENATOR BONACIC: Madam
President, I now move to reconsider the vote
by which the bill was passed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will call the roll upon reconsideration.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Bonacic.
SENATOR BONACIC: Madam
President, I now offer the following
amendment.
THE PRESIDENT: The amendment is
received, Senator Bonacic.
SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you very
much, Madam President.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Farley.
SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you, Madam
President.
On -- incidentally, on -- I was out
of the chamber on Senate business when 1223
had a slow roll. And had I been here, I would
have voted aye.
But I also have a motion. Madam
President, I wish to call up -
THE PRESIDENT: The record will
4619
so reflect, Senator.
SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you.
On behalf of Senator Bruno, Madam
President, I wish to call up his bill,
Calendar Number 235, Assembly Print 6909A,
which is now at the desk.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
235, by Member of the Assembly Diaz, Assembly
Print Number 6909A, an act to amend the
Education Law.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Farley.
SENATOR FARLEY: I now move to
reconsider the vote by which this bill passed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will call the roll upon reconsideration.
(The Secretary called the roll.)
THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59.
THE PRESIDENT: Senator Farley.
SENATOR FARLEY: Incidentally,
that was the Assembly Bill, which was
substituted for the Senate Print 1922A on
5/11. And that bill was decided in the
affirmative.
4620
I now move that the Assembly Bill,
6909A, be recommitted to the Committee on
Rules, and that the Senate Bill be committed
to the Rules Committee.
THE PRESIDENT: So ordered. And
the bill will be recommitted, Senator Farley.
SENATOR FARLEY: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: You're welcome.
Senator Marc -- Senator McGee.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: I will yield
to Senator McGee, with pleasure.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you,
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR McGEE: Thank you, Madam
President.
On behalf of Senator Skelos, please
place a sponsor star on Calendar Number 91.
THE PRESIDENT: So ordered, and
the bill is so starred.
SENATOR McGEE: Thank you.
Amendments are offered to the
following Third Reading Calendar bills:
On behalf of Senator Fuschillo,
page number 13, Calendar Number 380, Senate
Print 3766;
4621
On behalf of Senator Bonacic, page
number 53, Calendar Number 1249, Senate Print
5732;
On behalf of Senator Hannon, page
number 40, Calendar Number 953, Senate Print
4775;
On behalf of Senator Bonacic, page
number 46, Calendar Number 1049, Senate Print
3908A;
On behalf of Senator Leibell, page
number 48, Calendar Number 1110, Senate Print
5328;
On behalf of Senator Saland, page
number 54, Calendar Number 935, Senate Print
5117;
On behalf of Senator Skelos, page
number 23, Calendar Number 634, Senate Print
13A.
Madam President, without the help
of cashews, I now move that these bills retain
their place on the order of the third reading.
THE PRESIDENT: The amendments
are received, and the bills will retain their
place on the Third Reading Calendar.
SENATOR McGEE: Thank you, Madam
4622
President.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
Senator Marcellino.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
President, are there any substitutions at the
desk?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, there are,
Senator.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Can we have
those substitutions made, please?
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary
will read.
THE SECRETARY: On page 14,
Senator LaValle moves to discharge, from the
Committee on Rules, Assembly Bill Number 6840
and substitute it for the identical Third
Reading Calendar, 404.
And on page 20, Senator Fuschillo
moves to discharge, from the Committee on
Rules, Assembly Bill Number 6510A and
substitute it for the identical Third Reading
Calendar, 589.
THE PRESIDENT: The substitutions
are ordered.
Senator Marcellino.
4623
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Madam
President, is there any other housekeeping at
the desk?
THE PRESIDENT: No, there is not,
Senator.
SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you,
Madam President.
I might remind our colleagues on
both sides of the aisle that the Minority will
be conferencing in 314 and the Majority will
be conferencing in 332 as soon as I finish
speaking.
And at this point, there being no
further business, I move we adjourn until
Thursday, June 10, at 11:00 a.m.
THE PRESIDENT: On motion, the
Senate stands adjourned until Thursday,
June 10th, 11:00 a.m.
(Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m., the
Senate adjourned.)