Regular Session - February 8, 2000

                                                             587



                           NEW YORK STATE SENATE





                          THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD









                             ALBANY, NEW YORK

                             February 8, 2000

                                11:10 a.m.





                              REGULAR SESSION







                 SENATOR RAYMOND MEIER, Acting President

                 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary

















                                                          588



                           P R O C E E D I N G S

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Senate will come to order.

                            I ask everyone present to please

                 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of

                 Allegiance to the Flag.

                            (Whereupon, the assemblage recited

                 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    In the

                 absence of clergy, may we bow our heads in a

                 moment of silence.

                            (Whereupon, the assemblage

                 respected a moment of silence.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Reading

                 of the Journal.

                            THE SECRETARY:    In Senate,

                 Monday, February 7th, the Senate met pursuant

                 to adjournment.  The Journal of Saturday,

                 February 5th, was read and approved.  On

                 motion, Senate adjourned.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Without

                 objection, the Journal stands approved as

                 read.

                            Presentation of petitions.

                            Messages from the Assembly.





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                            Messages from the Governor.

                            Reports of standing committees.

                            Reports of select committees.

                            Communications and reports from

                 state officers.

                            Motions and resolutions.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 if we could adopt the Resolution Calendar,

                 with the exception of Resolution 3031.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    All in

                 favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar with

                 the exception of Resolution 3031 signify by

                 saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Resolution Calendar, with exception, is

                 adopted.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 there will be an immediate meeting of the

                 Rules Committee in the Majority Conference





                                                          590



                 Room.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

                 Immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in

                 the Majority Conference Room.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 there's a privileged resolution at the desk,

                 Number 3021, sponsored by Senator DeFrancisco.

                 May we please have the title read and move for

                 its immediate adoption.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read the title of Resolution

                 3021.

                            THE SECRETARY:    By Senator

                 DeFrancisco, Legislative Resolution Number

                 3021, commemorating the 50th anniversary of

                 television station WSTM, Channel 3.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    On the

                 resolution, all in favor signify by saying

                 aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 resolution is adopted.





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                            Senator Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes, Mr.

                 President.  May we now have the title read on

                 Resolution 3031, and I move for its immediate

                 adoption.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read the title of Resolution

                 3031.

                            THE SECRETARY:    By Senator

                 DeFrancisco, Legislative Resolution Number

                 3031, memorializing Governor George E. Pataki

                 to proclaim February 2000 as Black History

                 Month in the State of New York.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 DeFrancisco.

                            SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:    Last year I

                 believe this was opened up to the entire house

                 and everyone wanted to go on it.  And I would

                 request that that be done today and that those

                 who do not want to be on this resolution to

                 notify the chair.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Let's put

                 everybody on the resolution, as we have in the





                                                          592



                 past.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Everyone

                 will be put on the resolution.  If you do not

                 wish to be on, please notify the desk.

                            Senator Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Move the immediate

                 adoption of the resolution.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 question is on the resolution.  All those in

                 favor signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 resolution is adopted.

                            Senator Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes, Mr.

                 President.  Would you recognize Senator

                 Schneiderman.  He would like to address a

                 resolution that was previously adopted on the

                 Resolution Calendar.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you,





                                                          593



                 Mr. President.

                            The resolution, Resolution 3032,

                 addresses an issue that I think every member

                 of this house should be concerned with, and

                 that is the fact that as of February 1st, the

                 government of Austria includes something

                 called the Freedom Party in its ruling

                 coalition.

                            The Freedom Party has risen to

                 power very quickly.  It is the most prominent

                 and effective of the neo-Nazi parties in

                 Europe.

                            It is especially troubling to me

                 because I have many people who fled from

                 Austria and Germany to get away from the

                 Nazis.  In my district, my predecessor, who

                 served with many of you for many years,

                 Senator Leichter, fled from Austria.  His

                 mother was killed by the Nazis in Austria.

                            So the fact that we now have the

                 inclusion in the Austrian government of

                 apologists for the Nazis, and xenophobes, is

                 extremely troubling.

                            This resolution would express the

                 view of this house, of the Senate, that the





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                 State of New York should immediately review

                 all dealings with Austria and encourage the

                 Governor and Comptroller to take a close look

                 at what's going on in Austria, with a view to

                 possible sanctions.

                            J"rg Haider, who is the leader of

                 the Freedom Party, has achieved a lot of

                 prominence for his statements against every

                 type of immigrant and his refusal to criticize

                 the Nazi regime of the Third Reich.  He has

                 attacked his own country, suggesting that

                 Austria is an aberration and a deformity -

                 those are his words -- and that they should be

                 a part of a greater German state.  He has

                 echoed Hitler's words on numerous occasions in

                 his campaign literature, speaking of the

                 difference between "real" Austrians and

                 "nonreal" Austrians, by which he means anyone

                 who is non-Aryan.

                            And I think this is something that

                 all members of this house must be attentive

                 to.  We cannot allow, in the birthplace of

                 Hitler, the rewriting of history that Haider

                 seeks to take place.  And I think that I'm

                 going to urge that we open this resolution up





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                 to all members of the house.  This is not a

                 partisan issue.

                            The Senate will be the first

                 element of the New York State government, by

                 this resolution, to take a stand saying it is

                 not acceptable to have Nazis in the government

                 of Austria and we are going to look very

                 closely at every dealing we have with that

                 country as long as they are in power.

                            I urge passing of the resolution.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            I want to thank Senator

                 Schneiderman for enlightening us further on

                 the issue, those of us that may not be fully

                 aware of what's going on in the world at this

                 particular time, and particularly his

                 reference to the rewriting of history and the

                 anachronistic sense that certain officials of

                 Austria look at what happened in the 20th

                 century, the greatest travesty of the 20th

                 century, the Holocaust.

                            And I strongly urge that we all be





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                 not only party to this resolution, but that it

                 speak for the entire house.

                            I just wanted, as a point of order,

                 to inquire, is this resolution open to the

                 entire Senate body?

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    I would

                 like it to be open, if there's no objection.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes, Mr.

                 President.  Could we return to the order of

                 reports of standing committees.  I believe

                 there's a report of the Rules Committee at the

                 desk, and I ask that it be read.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Reports

                 of standing committees.

                            I'm sorry.  Senator Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    I think we

                 have to vote.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    We did

                 vote, Senator.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Okay,

                 thank you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The





                                                          597



                 resolution was previously adopted.  And

                 pursuant to the request of the sponsor, it's

                 open for cosponsorship.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator Bruno,

                 from the Committee on Rules, reports the

                 following bill direct to third reading:

                 Senate Print 3131B, by Senator LaValle, an act

                 to amend the Insurance Law.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Move to accept the

                 report of the Rules Committee.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 motion is to accept the report of the Rules

                 Committee.  All those in favor signify by

                 saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 report is accepted.

                            Senator Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Could we have





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                 Calendar Number 231, which was just reported

                 from Rules, taken up at this time.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read Calendar 231.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 231, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 3131B,

                 an act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation

                 to coverage for diagnosis, testing for, and

                 treatment of infertility.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, an explanation has been requested by

                 Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    I'm

                 sorry.  Senator Kuhl.  I'm sorry.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Mr. President,

                 before Senator LaValle gives an explanation of

                 the bill, could we have the last section read,

                 please.

                            There are a couple of members who

                 have other meetings in other parts of the

                 Capitol who will need to be voted.  And so





                                                          599



                 would you read the last section, please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This

                 act shall take effect July 1, 2000.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Call the roll.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Stachowski.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    No.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Stachowski will be recorded in the negative.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Aye.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Skelos will be recorded in the affirmative.

                            Senator McGee.

                            SENATOR McGEE:    No.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 McGee will be recorded in the negative.

                            Senator Johnson.

                            SENATOR JOHNSON:    Aye.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator





                                                          600



                 Johnson will be recorded in the affirmative.

                            Senator Goodman.

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Aye.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Goodman will be recorded in the affirmative.

                            Senator Hoffmann.

                            SENATOR HOFFMANN:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hoffmann will be recorded in the affirmative.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Withdraw the roll

                 call at this point, please, and recognize

                 Senator LaValle for an explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will withdraw the roll call.

                            Senator LaValle is recognized for

                 an explanation of the bill.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Mr. President,

                 this bill amends the Insurance Law by adding a

                 new section that would extend health-care

                 coverage to the diagnosis and treatment of

                 infertility.

                            One of the things that we have done

                 in this bill, in the amended version -- and

                 this is a very, very critical point -- is that

                 as the sponsor, chief sponsor of the bill,





                                                          601



                 along with the cosponsors, we have tried to

                 strike a balance between the need to add

                 coverage and not increase the cost and create

                 additional problems for people who might be

                 denied coverage.

                            And I'm sure, as we discuss this

                 issue, we will talk about some of the points

                 in trying to achieve the important balance in

                 this bill.

                            And I might add, in meeting over a

                 ten-month period of time with many of the

                 stakeholders, trying to incorporate many of

                 the pieces of input that we received to

                 achieve this balance, we tried to be as

                 inclusionary in points of view -- to

                 incorporate those points of view in this

                 legislation.

                            I got into this issue because of a

                 very, very important program, and maybe one of

                 the leading programs dealing with infertility,

                 that has been established at Mather Memorial

                 Hospital in the village that I live in, in

                 Port Jefferson.  There have been articles that

                 have been written about the program and the

                 two doctors that began the program in Port





                                                          602



                 Jefferson.

                            As you well know, as members we are

                 invited to various ceremonial functions, and I

                 have attended those functions and spoken, I

                 spoke to, couples who were very, very

                 emotional over the fact that they could not

                 have a child, that they had tried but to no

                 avail.

                            One in every five couples are

                 infertile, and this affects approximately

                 5.3 million Americans.  What do we talk about

                 as a definition of infertility?  Well, first,

                 we begin that it's a condition of the

                 reproductive system that deals with a couple

                 who have been unable to achieve conception

                 after one year of unprotected, well-timed

                 intercourse -- and that would be a six-month

                 period if the woman is over age 35 -- or a

                 woman unable to carry a pregnancy to a live

                 birth.

                            A most amazing thing is that

                 approximately 40 percent of infertility is due

                 to female factors, 40 percent due to male

                 factors, and the balance is due to either a

                 combination of the two or simply -- and we've





                                                          603



                 heard this before -- unknown factors.

                            Since 1970, approximately 72,000

                 babies have been born in the United States as

                 a result of assisted reproductive

                 technologies.  And later on in the debate I'm

                 just going to use the term ART, assisted

                 reproductive technologies.  Approximately

                 16,500 have been born in 1995 alone, just one

                 year.

                            There are conventional infertility

                 treatments, and those include -- and are

                 covered, by the way, under medical plans -

                 hormone therapy, where fertility is achieved

                 through medication; surgical procedures to

                 correct a physical blockage or a structural

                 problem in the reproductive organs; or

                 intrauterine insemination, which involves

                 inserting specially prepared sperm through the

                 cervix into the woman's uterus to increase the

                 likelihood of fertilization.

                            And probably the best known of the

                 assisted reproductive technologies, the ART,

                 is the in vitro fertilization -- that is, an

                 embryo transfer -- which is a procedure in

                 which eggs are removed from the ovaries,





                                                          604



                 fertilized by sperm outside the body and then

                 transferred back into the uterus of the woman.

                            As I have indicated, the input that

                 we received from the original bill dealt with

                 a great concern about the cost.  And so in

                 order to achieve the balance that I talked

                 about, we looked at establishing some

                 parameters that were realistic parameters,

                 that individuals who are involved both on the

                 medical side and those couples who have either

                 had treatment, infertility treatments, or

                 those who are presently involved in treatments

                 indicated to us that the parameters that we

                 have included in this bill are realistic.

                            One is to establish a $60,000

                 lifetime limit on benefits.  Prescription

                 drugs are not subject to the lifetime cap.

                 The bill requires that a person be insured for

                 12 months before accessing infertility

                 coverage.  Certain procedures, such as

                 reversal of sterilization, reversal of

                 sex-change operations, cloning, or sperm or

                 egg retrieval from deceased individuals are

                 not covered under the bill.

                            The use of sperm or eggs from





                                                          605



                 deceased individuals are covered, however, if

                 the deceased person had provided some prior

                 authorization, whether that be in a will or

                 some other document indicating that this is a

                 wish that they have.

                            This bill includes and requires

                 that the Superintendent of Insurance order a

                 study of the utilization trends and

                 experiences and the rate-premium impact to

                 health insurance consumers.  And, lastly, the

                 bill has a two-year sunset.  This bill would

                 take effect July 1, 2000, and would sunset

                 July 1, 2002.

                            I would like to thank some people

                 before, I'm sure, answering some questions or

                 simply listening to various points of view on

                 the bill.  I would like to thank my colleagues

                 Senator Morahan, Senator Lachman; my former

                 counsel, who had been with me 19 years, who

                 started working on this bill, Brian Murphy,

                 who is now with the Health Department; my

                 present counsel, who in 39 days in my office

                 was given this bill to work on, and that's

                 Mike Kinna.  I would also like to thank the

                 Majority Leader's chief counsel, Ken Riddett,





                                                          606



                 Majority Leader's counsel Caron

                 O'Brien-Crummey, and also Abe Lackman, who is

                 the Secretary of our Finance Committee.

                            I would like to thank all of those

                 people, and my sponsors who are on this bill,

                 for working with me to help improve the bill

                 to place before this body a realistic bill, a

                 balanced bill, and one that will, I believe,

                 be cost-neutral.

                            Our own Empire Plan, state plan,

                 has just included infertility treatments at no

                 additional cost.  And I'm sure we'll talk

                 about that some more.  But I want to repeat

                 again, the sensitivity on the cost issue is

                 one that this body and the Legislature has

                 addressed in terms of providing additional

                 coverage, whatever it be, but not increasing

                 the premiums so that we add to the uncovered

                 pool of individuals.

                            We just made a major effort with

                 Family Plus to include and protect individuals

                 who prior to the coverage would have been

                 uninsured.  So this Legislature has shown a

                 sensitivity to that issue.  I, as sponsor,

                 have continued with that sensitivity in





                                                          607



                 providing what I believe is a bill that is

                 well balanced.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes, Mr.

                 President.  Could you read the last section,

                 please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This

                 act shall take effect July 1, 2000.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Ask Senator

                 Stafford for his vote, please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

                 Certainly.

                            Senator Stafford.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Aye.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Stafford will be recorded in the affirmative.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Will you withdraw

                 the roll call, please.





                                                          608



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The roll

                 call will be withdrawn.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Also, Mr.

                 President, I'd like to make an announcement.

                 There will be an immediate meeting of the

                 Children and Families Committee in the

                 Majority Conference Room.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    There

                 will be an immediate meeting of the Children

                 and Families Committee in the Majority

                 Conference Room.

                            Senator Breslin.

                            SENATOR BRESLIN:    Yes, Mr.

                 President.  Would the sponsor yield for a

                 question or two?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you yield for a question from

                 Senator Breslin?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR BRESLIN:    Through you,

                 Mr. President.

                            You indicated that over 5 million

                 people in the United States suffer from





                                                          609



                 infertility.  And in the bill it uses a limit

                 of $60,000 per situation, excluding

                 prescription drugs.  Have you provided or had

                 an analysis of what the increased cost would

                 be to incorporate this plan within existing

                 policies?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Senator, as I

                 had indicated, we have some models.  First, I

                 talked about the Empire Plan.  It is new, but

                 at this point there was no additional cost for

                 providing the infertility treatment.

                            The next best model that we can

                 look at is the State of Massachusetts, in

                 which the increase was about $1.70 per month

                 in a plan that is far broader, far more

                 expansive than ours.  And so when we look at

                 the Massachusetts plan, based on -- by the

                 way, the insurance companies did the study.

                 So we assume that that would be the most

                 liberal interpretation of cost mandated to a

                 policy, that we believe that this will be

                 neutral.

                            Now, that's one of the reasons,

                 however -- I'll be very candid with you.  We

                 have studies all over the place.  We looked at





                                                          610



                 Illinois; we got different numbers from

                 different people.  You can make different

                 arguments about Massachusetts.  But one of the

                 answers is that's why we sunset the bill,

                 that's why we include the study.  So that we

                 could be assured of what the numbers are based

                 on the New York experience, which so many

                 times is different from any other state and

                 any other experience.

                            SENATOR BRESLIN:    Through you,

                 again, Mr. President.  Would the sponsor yield

                 to a question?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor continues to yield.

                            Senator Breslin.

                            SENATOR BRESLIN:    Can you tell

                 us, if you know, approximately how many people

                 in the State of New York, as opposed to the

                 5 million nationally, would be subject to the

                 infertility process?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    I do not know

                 that number.

                            SENATOR BRESLIN:    And again

                 through you, Mr. President.





                                                          611



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.  Yes, I

                 do.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR BRESLIN:    Would there be

                 any effect on the sunsetting of this bill, if

                 in fact it was passed -- the sunsetting of

                 this bill on any kind of collective bargaining

                 agreements by providing a value under a

                 contract and then taking it away at the sunset

                 period?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Senator, I

                 think you know that I've had 24 years of

                 experience in this chamber.  When I look at

                 provisions that sunset, whether it's the heart

                 bill for volunteer firemen and paid fire

                 personnel -- and we could go through hundreds

                 of bills -- the experience is that there is a

                 continuation of that coverage.

                            The question may come not so much

                 whether infertility treatments will lapse out

                 of policies, but whether we need to, in two

                 years, in July 2002, need to fine-tune the





                                                          612



                 legislation.  Both ways.  Because there are

                 some people that feel that we should be more

                 inclusive, more expansive in the provisions in

                 this bill.

                            Well, we may get to the year 2002

                 and find out exactly what I'm saying, is that

                 this is neutral.  We may want to consider when

                 we get to 2002 to maybe fine-tune it the other

                 way, to include things that maybe we felt we

                 couldn't afford to do at this juncture.

                            But whether it would lapse and not

                 be restored, I seriously doubt that that would

                 happen.

                            SENATOR BRESLIN:    Mr. President,

                 on the bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Breslin, on the bill.

                            SENATOR BRESLIN:    Now, I commend

                 Senator LaValle for his zeal in preparation of

                 this bill and his discussion of the recently

                 enacted Health Care Reform Act, wherein we

                 provided for hopefully an additional million

                 people of the some 3 million people in this

                 state who have no health insurance.  And I

                 emphasize no health insurance.





                                                          613



                            And now we have an additional

                 mandate, an additional mandate which many in

                 the medical community believe will add 3 to

                 5 percent on to premiums.  And I impress upon

                 this body that 1 percent, the addition of

                 1 percent on a premium puts an additional

                 60,000 people on the unenrolled insurance

                 rolls.  That means that they have no health

                 coverage.  And if you take the out number of

                 5 percent, that means in the neighborhood of

                 $300,000 additional people.

                            So we take two steps forward with

                 HCRA and one step back with this mandate.  And

                 I urge us to consider -- and my heart goes out

                 to those people who have fertility problems.

                 But we must remember, it's a finite dollar.

                 And that finite dollar is not covering the

                 people of the state of New York with health

                 insurance, something they should expect as a

                 matter of right.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Bruno.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Mr. President,

                 can we read the last section and call the roll





                                                          614



                 for the purposes of Senator Trunzo casting his

                 vote at this time.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This

                 act shall take effect July 1, 2000.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Trunzo.

                            SENATOR TRUNZO:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Trunzo will be recorded in the affirmative.

                            Senator Bruno.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Mr. President,

                 can we withdraw the roll call.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The roll

                 call will be withdrawn.

                            Senator Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you.

                 Through you, Mr. President, if the sponsor

                 would yield to a question.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you yield for a question?





                                                          615



                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes, I will.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    My

                 question relates to the -- and I'm trying to

                 find the proper subsection.  It's the end of

                 Section 13A, the exemption for organizations

                 connected to religious institutions, at the

                 very, very bottom of Section 13A, which states

                 "if the group or entity on whose behalf the

                 policy is issued is operated, supervised, or

                 controlled by or in connection with a

                 religious organization or denominational group

                 or entity, then nothing in this paragraph

                 shall require the policy to cover any

                 diagnosis or treatment."

                            And my first question is, what does

                 that refer to, "group or entity"?  What would

                 that include?  Does that include employers or

                 providers of a plan?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    The first part,

                 Senator, deals with employers, and the second

                 part deals with insurers and HMOs.

                            One of the things that we have used

                 here, which I think is very, very important,





                                                          616



                 is a benchmark definition by IRS that defines

                 a 501C3, defines a 501C3.  This was put in

                 because of -- and let me just say that

                 conscience clauses -- and that's what this is

                 all about, what Senator Schneiderman has read

                 to us -- is something that the states of

                 California, Illinois, Montana, and Texas, that

                 have similar laws as this, all have conscience

                 clauses.  Along with the federal government,

                 under the Omnibus Spending Bill, included a

                 conscience clause.

                            And so -- and we have recognized to

                 some degree conscience clauses in the

                 Executive Law and the Human Rights Law, to

                 allow religious -- those individuals,

                 employers -- and in this case insurers or

                 HMOs -- who have religious beliefs, religious

                 tenets, to opt out.  So it is specifically

                 narrowly defined to cover those 501C3s and

                 HMOs.

                            And there's only one HMO, Fidelis

                 Care of New York, that does business here in

                 New York, which is the New York State Catholic

                 health plan.  So when we talk about the

                 broader provision, we're talking about that





                                                          617



                 plan specifically.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Through

                 you, Mr. President, if the sponsor will

                 continue to yield.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor continues to yield.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Just a few

                 more questions.

                            So the term "group" refers to

                 employers and "entity" refers to HMOs?  Is

                 that what I understood?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Pardon me?

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    In this

                 phrasing, you've said the first and then the

                 second.  The word "group," "if the group or

                 entity on whose behalf the policy is issued,"

                 "group" in that case refers to employers?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    And

                 "entity" refers to HMOs?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Okay.

                            I appreciate the sponsor's

                 statement about conscience clauses.  The





                                                          618



                 reason I'm asking this is I've never seen a

                 conscience clause drafted this broadly.

                            Is it my understanding that

                 "group" -- because it doesn't say anything

                 about this in here -- that "group" would

                 exclude for-profit companies that offer this,

                 "group" as an employer?  Most of these are

                 offered by for-profit corporations.  Would

                 they be excluded or not?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    It's exactly

                 what I said to you, Senator.  It would have to

                 be a not-for-profit corporation.  The language

                 that we put in used the benchmark IRS language

                 for 501C3 corporations.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    So any

                 for-profit company would not be eligible for

                 an opt-out under this conscience clause?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    That is -

                 that's my understanding.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Okay -

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    I just want

                 to -- there is a -- we're dealing with a

                 conscience clause, and the answer is exactly

                 the way I gave you, yes.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you.





                                                          619



                            If the sponsor will continue to

                 yield.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    And again,

                 because I've reviewed many conscience clauses

                 and I've never seen one drafted this way, a

                 "group," meaning an employer, that is operated

                 in connection -- operated in connection with a

                 religious organization, could that apply to

                 any -- an entity whose primary function was

                 not religious study?  It's not a church but

                 something that -- an organization that works

                 out of a church or rents space from a church?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    The precise

                 language, the IRS language says "operated,

                 supervised or controlled by or in connection

                 with."  That is the language that is necessary

                 to meet the IRS 501C3 test benchmark.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you.

                            Mr. President, on the bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator





                                                          620



                 Schneiderman, on the bill.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you.

                            I have to say I've reviewed a lot

                 of conscience clauses; I've never seen one in

                 this type of a provision that is as broadly

                 drafted.

                            I don't like -- as we broaden out

                 from religious institutions to insurance

                 companies, I don't understand the concept of

                 an insurance company having a conscience, I

                 must say.  I've never really encountered that

                 in my personal dealings.

                            And I think that we are going down

                 a road with this particular language in this

                 bill that I think anyone who's concerned about

                 this, particularly certain people in the

                 pro-choice community, that we should not pass

                 a bill with this broad a clause.  I don't

                 think it's necessary to include language this

                 broad to achieve the effect of having actual

                 religious organizations exempt from provisions

                 they find offensive.

                            There's language in other bills

                 that says "institutions whose primary purpose

                 is religious instruction," or limit it in





                                                          621



                 other ways.  I think this is far too broad.

                            And I think that -- I do favor the

                 inclusion of fertility treatments as a general

                 concept.  I don't like this language in this

                 bill.  And for that reason and several others

                 which some of my colleagues will address, I'm

                 urging a no vote.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Lachman.

                            SENATOR LACHMAN:    The United

                 States Supreme Court just last year, in the

                 decision Bragdon versus Abbott, said

                 infertility is a disease.  Many people can't

                 accept that terminology.  But infertility is a

                 disease.  It is a major disease.

                            And in that U.S. Supreme Court

                 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court said

                 infertility is a disability under the

                 Americans with Disabilities Act.  Why?

                 Because reproduction is a major life activity.

                            Now, I also want to commend some

                 people in the galleries who fought for this

                 decision, who are fighting today to get an

                 infertility bill through both houses of this

                 Legislature.  And I'm referring, of course, to





                                                          622



                 RESOLVE, the American Infertility Association,

                 and the largest mass orthodox Jewish

                 organization in America, Agudath Israel of

                 America.

                            And now I have to go to a Danish

                 proverb.  There is a Danish proverb that

                 states "There is no perfection this side of

                 heaven."  We as legislators know that.  We

                 vote on bills, legislation and measures that

                 are imperfect.  I would be lying to you if I

                 were to say this was a perfect bill.  I have

                 certain problems with certain aspects of this

                 bill, as I have with 99.99 percent of votes on

                 other bills as well.

                            However, until we have legislation

                 dealing with infertility coverage, you will

                 have the wealthiest people in America, who can

                 afford drugs, having elimination of

                 infertility.  And I'm not talking about IVF.

                 Only 2 to 5 percent would refer to that.  This

                 bill is tailor-made for working-class and

                 middle-class people who receive no coverage

                 whatsoever.

                            Under those circumstances, under a

                 fairness issue in the broadest sense, I am





                                                          623



                 going to vote for this bill.  But I also

                 realize this is a one-house bill.  There is

                 another house in this Legislature.  And this

                 will not be legislated until both houses

                 agree.  And I'm hopeful that in the future

                 there will be an accommodation between the

                 Senate and the Assembly -- which will still be

                 imperfect, but will resolve some more of the

                 issues that many people have on this bill.

                            I am voting for this bill.  Thank

                 you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Oppenheimer.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Well, I

                 have to start by saying that my heart goes out

                 to the couples that are having infertility

                 problems.  I was particularly fortunate in

                 having four children in less than seven years,

                 and I thank God for that.

                            But I'm not going to support this

                 bill, at least not in the present form, even

                 though I do feel very much for these couples.

                 But I also feel very much for the 3 million

                 people in our state who don't have health

                 insurance.  And I really feel we have to





                                                          624



                 address that issue first.

                            I'll tell you some of my concerns,

                 and then I'll say why I'm not supporting the

                 bill.  I'm concerned that it's only for people

                 who have group health insurance and that for

                 people that have individual health insurance,

                 they will not be covered.  I'm concerned by

                 the parameters.  Why are there specific age

                 limitations and other limitations?  Another

                 limitation would be why it does not include

                 the people who would most need this.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Mr. President,

                 I'm having a -

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, why do you rise?

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Shall I

                 talk louder?  Oh, I'm not pointed at myself.

                 There.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Thank you.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    So sorry.

                            I'm telling you some of my concerns

                 with the bill right now.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Okay.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    And one is

                 that it covers only groups and not individual





                                                          625



                 insurance.

                            Also, I'm concerned by certain

                 limitations, limitations on age, limitations

                 on Medicaid recipients.  I think it is those

                 people, the poor people, who most need

                 assistance.  I know of many instances,

                 certainly in my county, where people that have

                 the means have been able to acquire the

                 necessary services.  So to limit it only to

                 middle-income people and not to the poor

                 people who certainly could not avail

                 themselves of this service were they not

                 assisted.

                            But most specifically, I am voting

                 against this primarily because of the American

                 College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists,

                 ACOG.  They have withdrawn their support of

                 this B version, and they have done it for very

                 specific and very important reasons.

                            There are mentioned in the bill -

                 not in the bill, but by supporters that there

                 are guidelines that have been developed by

                 ACOG.  But ACOG knows nothing of these

                 guidelines.  They say they are nonexistent.

                 And therefore, they are very concerned that





                                                          626



                 there are nonexistent guidelines.

                            The other thing that is of very

                 serious concern to all doctors in this field

                 is the coverage is contingent, and I'll quote,

                 on a reasonable expectation that treatment

                 will result in a healthy baby, unquote.

                            Boy, that's a tough one.  How can

                 we assure that a baby is going to be born

                 healthy?  With the very best care available,

                 there are many children that are born severely

                 disabled.  And gynecologists and obstetricians

                 would be at great risk of liability lawsuits

                 if a baby is born with health problems.  And

                 there is no one that can assure that there

                 won't be health problems.

                            So I think until there is

                 considerably more attention and study and

                 discussion about this bill, there is really no

                 way that I could be voting favorably.  I'll be

                 voting in the no.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Connor.

                            SENATOR CONNOR:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            I have a number of concerns and





                                                          627



                 have had with this legislation over the years.

                 I have a concern that particularly focuses on

                 in vitro fertilization, that in the past the

                 bishops of this state have had problems with

                 that, for reasons that relate to the

                 destruction of embryos that aren't used or

                 aren't implanted.  And I understand their

                 concerns.

                            The Assembly bill as a measure I

                 think is far, far preferable to this bill.

                 For example, the age restriction.  This bill

                 says women between 25 and 44.  Well, that

                 makes a judgment that may relate to the

                 average American today, and a lot of women are

                 having children primarily between those ages

                 of 25 and 44.  But it doesn't apply to all,

                 nor should it.  And we shouldn't inflict some

                 kind of judgment.

                            There are many, many men and women

                 who marry much younger.  In fact, it's a

                 tradition in some parts of our state for men

                 and women to marry much younger.  And I don't

                 see why -- what the difference between a

                 married 20-year-old woman and a married

                 25-year-old woman is.  Why exclude the younger





                                                          628



                 woman?

                            First of all, leave aside the woman

                 for a minute.  The case of urgency, in the

                 case of a big age difference between a man and

                 his wife.  You know, the man could be much

                 older and be very desirous of starting a

                 family with his 20-year-old wife as quickly as

                 possible, because he may want to ensure some

                 possibility of him being around -- and I speak

                 as a 54-year-old man with young children.  You

                 know, you want to be around to see them grow

                 up.

                            And so I don't think we ought to

                 make any judgment about married couples who

                 desire to have a family.  If they're 18 years

                 old and married and we're providing this for

                 older couples, why not a young couple that's

                 experiencing real infertility problems?  I

                 don't see why that judgment is being made by

                 this Majority here.

                            Go with Shelly Silver's bill.  He

                 understands the problem better, he understands

                 the need better.  And let's not put this

                 artificial age limitation in there.

                            And I even suggest that, as Senator





                                                          629



                 Oppenheimer suggested, a concern with this

                 definition concerning healthy children.  Of

                 course we wish upon all couples in New York

                 State healthy children, that gift from God.

                 But we also know that sometimes children are

                 born who aren't completely healthy.  And many

                 believe that that's a different kind of gift

                 to those parents, a different kind of

                 responsibility for those parents, that

                 children like that perhaps hopefully are given

                 to parents who can provide for them.

                 Certainly their life has value.

                            And so -- but to in effect build

                 into a bill a prediction of that, only God can

                 predict that.  And we really can't question

                 His ways.  So I can share the concern of the

                 professional doctors that they don't want to

                 be liable for somehow guaranteeing something

                 that no one can guarantee.

                            So this bill is seriously flawed in

                 that respect.  The fact that it doesn't cover

                 people who have individual insurance policies

                 excludes a whole range of people who really

                 could benefit and need this infertility

                 treatment.  And I know others -- and I -- you





                                                          630



                 know, this was -- if you talk about Medicaid,

                 there's a public fiscal question involved.

                 But some would question, then, why the poorest

                 families, who may rely on Medicaid, do they

                 not have as much right -- do not couples in

                 that situation have as much right as anyone

                 else to have a family, to have treatment so

                 they can have a family?  I think the answer is

                 yes.

                            So the bill is in many respects

                 flawed.  It's watered down from the Assembly

                 version.  In one respect, I'm glad this house

                 is doing something to get this process

                 rolling.  But it's certainly going to have to

                 result in negotiations with the Speaker,

                 perhaps in conference committees or through

                 the conference committee vehicle.  And I want

                 my vote here to let everyone know clearly

                 where I stand on this issue.  I think it

                 should be negotiated with the Speaker.

                            I like a lot of the features of the

                 Speaker's bill far more than I like the

                 features in this bill.  I think that a serious

                 attempt to satisfy some of the moral and

                 religious concerns that have been expressed in





                                                          631



                 quarters of this state need to be addressed in

                 a way not with a narrow exemption, but in a

                 realistic, substantive way.  And I look

                 forward to that.

                            But I'm not ready to change my

                 position and go for this bill with all of its

                 serious, serious flaws.  I don't want to go

                 back to my district in Brooklyn and have to

                 face young married couples there -- and in

                 some communities, couples marry at 18, 17

                 years old -- and say "You've got to wait six

                 or seven years before you start your family."

                 That's just not fair.

                            I intend to vote no.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Bruno, to close the debate.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            And I have been listening very

                 intently on the speaker in the office and then

                 here.  And, Mr. President, my colleagues, the

                 issue before us can be considered

                 controversial, and that's why it's on the

                 floor.

                            And there are always reasons for





                                                          632



                 people who would not like to have something

                 happen legislatively that they can espouse.

                 Senator Connor, very learned, very articulate,

                 has an excuse on why he shouldn't vote for

                 this bill:  Younger people ought to be

                 included.  Your excuse can be just as good.

                            The bottom line is this is what is

                 on the floor.  This has been deliberated over

                 for months and months and months.  We have

                 invited the Assembly, we have invited others

                 that are part of this process to join so that

                 we can see a bill become law.

                            We advocate, we think this is the

                 right thing to do.  It's not an easy thing to

                 do, we recognize that.  And we also recognize

                 there are differences of opinion.  We have

                 differences of opinion on many things that we

                 discuss, and there is validity.  And when I

                 say "excuse," I don't mean that in a

                 disparaging way.  There are reasons that

                 people have for not wanting to support a

                 particular issue, a particular bill.

                            But the fact of the matter is that

                 we feel that this is the time to advance this

                 issue, to have it become law, and to allow





                                                          633



                 people who need this special help and who

                 truly cannot afford it to have help available

                 to them so that they can start their own

                 families, develop their own families, and

                 enjoy a quality of life that they would relate

                 to here in this state.

                            So I intend to fully support this.

                 And I encourage my colleagues on both sides of

                 the aisle to support it.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This

                 act shall take effect July 1, 2000.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    I'm

                 sorry.  Senator LaValle.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    To explain my

                 vote.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, to explain his vote.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Just briefly,

                 Mr. President, I just want to reiterate on





                                                          634



                 some of the points that were brought up on the

                 conscience clause.

                            Again, this bill -- under this

                 bill, only those organizations which meet the

                 IRS standard would be allowed the option of

                 choosing not to provide coverage for the

                 diagnosis of infertility.

                            On the issue of Medicaid, I would

                 say this body better look back, because this

                 body, during the budget in 1995, took out

                 infertility treatment.  We did that, this

                 Legislature.

                            ACOG, of course, would like the

                 most expansive provision.  That's why they

                 supported the original bill.  But I think

                 there are many things that they are fine with

                 with this bill.

                            Senator Oppenheimer brought up the

                 expectation, reasonable expectation of a

                 healthy child.  That provision was put in

                 there to protect people, because insurance

                 companies, based on a record of a success rate

                 of maybe 25 percent, would say it's not

                 reasonable.  And we -- the intention of this

                 bill is to leave that decision between -- for





                                                          635



                 the course of treatment between the patient

                 and the medical experts, and not with the

                 insurance companies, based on some sort of

                 provision.

                            This bill is a real bill that has

                 been negotiated with all the stakeholders.

                 The Assembly bill is back in a point in time

                 10 months ago, 10 months ago, when it seems

                 that there was no input on these so many

                 issues.

                            So I think this house has met with,

                 as Senator Bruno said, deliberated with.  We

                 did not have, to the best of my knowledge, a

                 partnership in framing out these issues.

                            So again, the cost issue, we look

                 at Idaho that has the fewest mandates and the

                 highest premiums, and Minnesota and

                 Pennsylvania, with the highest number of

                 mandates and lowest premiums.  So we have to

                 look at New York and what the cost effect is.

                 That's why that study is so important.

                            I vote in the affirmative, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle will be recorded in the affirmative.





                                                          636



                            Senator Marcellino.  Senator

                 Onorato, I had him first, then we'll go to

                 you.

                            Senator Marcellino.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.  Just to explain my vote.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Marcellino, to explain his vote.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    My colleague

                 Senator LaValle was very generous before in

                 issuing kudos and congratulations and

                 assigning it to those who assisted in the

                 performance of this bill.  And let me add to

                 that list and add Senator LaValle's name at

                 the front of it.

                            Our colleague has taken on a very

                 difficult issue.  He's taken it on with all

                 his energy, and that's boundless.  He's taken

                 it on with care.  And he's tried to address

                 everybody's concerns and everybody's wishes.

                            This, as I said before, is a very

                 difficult bill and a very difficult issue for

                 many people.  But I think Senator LaValle

                 deserves all the credit for bringing the issue

                 out and working very hard to bring all sides





                                                          637



                 together and try to reach an accommodation for

                 this particular piece of legislation.  For

                 that, I congratulate him.

                            I also vote aye on this bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Marcellino will be recorded in the

                 affirmative.

                            Senator Onorato.

                            SENATOR ONORATO:    Mr. President,

                 to explain my vote.

                            I am in agreement conceptually with

                 the idea of assisting infertile couples.  But

                 many, many valid reasons were presented here

                 today as to why they shouldn't be voting for

                 it.

                            Another glaring omission in this

                 bill -- I don't know if anyone has picked it

                 up as yet -- it does not limit the procedure

                 to married couples.  Now, this could lead to

                 further encouragement to single-women

                 pregnancies where they can ill afford to raise

                 a family -- perhaps multiple births.  I think

                 there should be further amendments and

                 visitations of this to make sure that we are

                 talking about married couples.





                                                          638



                            I vote no.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Onorato will be recorded in the negative.

                            Announce the results.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar Number 231 are

                 Senators Breslin, Connor, Duane, Gentile,

                 Gonzalez, Hevesi, Kuhl, Maltese, McGee,

                 Montgomery, Onorato, Oppenheimer, Paterson,

                 Rosado, Sampson, Schneiderman, Seabrook,

                 Seward, Smith, Stachowski, and Stavisky.

                            Ayes, 37.  Nays, 21.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Bruno.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Mr. President,

                 can we ask for an immediate meeting of the

                 Higher Education Committee in the Majority

                 Conference Room.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    There

                 will be an immediate meeting of the Higher

                 Education Committee in the Majority Conference

                 Room.

                            Senator Bruno.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    And can we at





                                                          639



                 this time take up the noncontroversial

                 calendar.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read the noncontroversial

                 calendar.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 117, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 2422, an

                 act to amend the Public Service Law, in

                 relation to the elimination of the mandate.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 57.  Nays,

                 1.  Senator Duane recorded in the negative.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Can we

                 have some order in the chamber.

                            If you're going to a committee

                 meeting, could you please make your departure.

                 Staff, take your seats.  Take your

                 conversations outside.

                            The Secretary will continue to





                                                          640



                 read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 128, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 925B, an

                 act to amend the General Business Law, in

                 relation to the use of the designations.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect January 1, 2001.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 149, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 5404,

                 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation

                 Law, in relation to the definition of a long

                 bow.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 January.





                                                          641



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 165, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 111A, an

                 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

                 relation to criminal actions terminated in

                 favor of the accused.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 56.  Nays,

                 2.  Senators Duane and Montgomery recorded in

                 the negative.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number





                                                          642



                 182, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 4650A, an

                 act to amend the Education Law, in relation to

                 the calculation of average daily attendance.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 190, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 4072, an

                 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to

                 permitting town boards.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.





                                                          643



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 197, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1524 -

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Lay it aside,

                 please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Lay the

                 bill aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 199, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 2197, an

                 act to amend the Public Health Law, in

                 relation to requiring consent for visual

                 observation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Bruno, that completes the

                 reading of the noncontroversial calendar.





                                                          644



                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Mr. President,

                 can we at this time take up the controversial

                 calendar.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read the controversial

                 calendar.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 197, by Senator Hannon, Senate Print 1524, an

                 act to amend the Public Health Law, in

                 relation to reimbursement.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Duane.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Would the sponsor

                 yield to some questions, please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you yield to some questions from

                 Senator Duane?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you very

                 much.  Through you, Mr. President.

                            Under this bill, since an inmate at

                 a local correctional facility can use their

                 own insurance, I'm wondering if that also





                                                          645



                 means that they can use whatever health-care

                 provider they want that is covered under their

                 plan.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    I think that

                 would depend on what the rules -- I think that

                 would depend on the rules for that

                 municipality and the insurance plan.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President, if I may follow up on that.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    I'm wondering if

                 the sponsor could tell me just as sort of an

                 array of what the different rules are that the

                 different municipalities have for

                 incarcerating people using their own

                 health-care providers when they're covered by

                 a health insurance plan.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Senator, I would

                 not have that information, and -- so I'm not

                 in a position to be able to respond to you at

                 all on that.





                                                          646



                            I believe that each municipality

                 sets forth their own provisions for health

                 care of their incarcerated individuals, and

                 this bill only kicks in after all that is

                 done.  So that in the event there is

                 third-party insurance which does cover that,

                 the municipality is entitled to reimbursement.

                            We seek not to set rules nor to

                 impose any conditions, but simply to tap into

                 an existing revenue stream that might be used

                 to offset the care of health for those

                 prisoners.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    If that is the

                 case, that then, as it seems to be, that an

                 inmate could use their own health-care

                 provider, has outreach been done to various -

                            SENATOR HANNON:    I didn't say





                                                          647



                 that.  I didn't say that, Senator.  Please.  I

                 said the rules of the municipality would

                 govern that.  And we seek not to deal with

                 that, and nothing in the legislation deals

                 with that.

                            And that's what I said.  So you

                 can't say it appears that.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    I'm wondering

                 then if the sponsor would think that this is

                 an important element and one that we should

                 actually talk to HMOs about before we pass

                 this legislation, in that it may have an

                 impact on them.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    No.  Because,

                 once again, it seeks not to enter into that

                 relationship before there's service or before

                 there's a determination by the municipality as

                 to how the health care shall be provided, but





                                                          648



                 seeks only, after all of the events have taken

                 place, to allow for the claim for

                 reimbursement.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    If an inmate is

                 dissatisfied with the health care they've been

                 provided under their insurance, would they

                 then have redress -- or maybe they would have

                 the same redress which is inadequate for most

                 New Yorkers.  But would they be entitled to

                 the same inadequate redress that New Yorkers

                 are now provided with in terms of

                 dissatisfaction with the service of their HMO?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    There would be

                 so many different ways to answer that, because

                 it would depend on their status as to why

                 they're in the prison and what their

                 relationship is to their HMO.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.





                                                          649



                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    In the context

                 of -- I think we would all agree that in order

                 for an inmate to be covered by insurance, they

                 would have to have been paying their premiums.

                 And therefore, as a paying customer of an HMO,

                 they are entitled to satisfactory service; is

                 that correct?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Well, in

                 general.  I just -- there's a whole body -

                 there's a whole Insurance Law, a set of

                 regulations, Patient's Bill of Rights that

                 you're referencing.  And whatever that -- is

                 set forth there, yes.

                            But just the word "satisfaction,"

                 I -- by that I mean reference to that body of

                 law.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Does the





                                                          650



                 sponsor continue to yield?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Yes, the

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    I agree we could

                 quote the entire insurance regulation.  But I

                 think what our goal is that those who are

                 insured get satisfaction from the coverage and

                 the benefits that they get from their

                 insurance company.  So I may have simplified

                 what it is, but I think we all agree that's

                 what the goal is.

                            But because the inmate is paying

                 their premium, should not they be the ones

                 reimbursed by the -- for treatment?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Not if the cost

                 of the treatment was paid for by the

                 municipality.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Well, through

                 you, Mr. President.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    That's the whole

                 point of the bill.  If the municipality has

                 borne the expense of providing the medical

                 care -- which, by the way, they have the

                 responsibility, if there's somebody in their





                                                          651



                 custody against their will, so they have the

                 responsibility of paying for the medical care,

                 then they should get reimbursement for that.

                            Now, if they didn't pay, then you

                 would have an argument.  But that's not the

                 case.  The whole premise of the bill is that

                 people who are wealthy enough to have health

                 insurance, become incarcerated, they became

                 ill, the municipality paid for the health

                 insurance, and therefore -- and there's an

                 existing policy out there, and we then say the

                 municipality can get reimbursement.  Simple as

                 that.

                            I don't see the real implications

                 you're trying to add on.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you continue to yield?

                            The sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    One last

                 question, Mr. President.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Mr. President, if

                 the sponsor doesn't have time to continue to

                 debate it, we can put it off for another day.





                                                          652



                 I have more than one question.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    I'd like to move

                 the bill, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Well,

                 Senator Duane, the sponsor, Senator Hannon,

                 has the floor.  And he's entitled to yield his

                 time as he wishes.

                            Do you have a question?

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President.  I'm trying to be as courteous as

                 possible.  If he's rushed, we can take it up

                 another day.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Well,

                 Senator, the sponsor has yielded for the

                 purpose of a question.  Do you have a

                 question?

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President, I'd like to convey to the sponsor

                 that I have more than one question.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    I've said, Mr.

                 President, I'll yield to a question.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President.





                                                          653



                            Actually, our side has more than

                 one question.  Some of the other members have

                 questions as well.  Is the sponsor only

                 willing to take one question from me or one

                 question from everyone?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Well, that's not

                 a question.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    That's not a

                 question, then.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    I didn't hear

                 that, Mr. President, I'm sorry.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Duane, under the rules, the sponsor -- Senator

                 Hannon has the floor.  You've asked him if

                 he'll yield for a question.  He's indicated

                 yes.  And so you have the privilege of asking

                 a question at this time under the rules.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Well, through

                 you, Mr. President, I think I'll wait and ask

                 my question after my colleagues have had a

                 chance to ask their questions.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery.





                                                          654



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, Mr.

                 President.  Would the sponsor yield to a

                 couple of questions from me, perhaps?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you yield to Senator Montgomery for

                 a question?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes, I do.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Thank you.

                            Senator Hannon, the bill indicates

                 that the local county or city jail facility,

                 corrections facility, would be able to be

                 reimbursed from a third party.  Does this

                 mean, then, that Medicaid coverage is

                 exempted?  Or would they then also be able to

                 receive reimbursement through Medicaid?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    As the bill

                 says, it's the third-party medical insurance

                 coverage, which would not -- since that

                 doesn't refer to Social Services Law, would

                 only be private insurance.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    All right,

                 Mr. President.  If Senator Hannon would

                 continue to yield, I have another.





                                                          655



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    That I do.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Senator

                 Hannon, the Commissioner of Corrections

                 informed us at the hearing before the Finance

                 Committee that the Department of Corrections

                 received reimbursement from telephone calls

                 made by prisoners to their families.

                 Essentially, it's a kickback from the

                 telephone company of $21 million, which is

                 used primarily to cover health-care costs of

                 inmates.

                            My question to you is, is there a

                 similar revenue that local facilities receive

                 that they also use for the same purpose?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Senator, I have

                 no idea.  I simply had not heard about

                 anything like that before, till you said it.

                 And I would have no idea as to what the

                 arrangements between jails are with telephone

                 companies.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    All right.





                                                          656



                 Just one last question, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon, do you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes, I do.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Senator

                 Hannon, the -- I had a visit to Bedford Hills

                 last week.  And I was informed by the

                 superintendent there that there are some

                 almost 200 state-ready inmates in Riker's

                 Island in the city.

                            Would your legislation -- how would

                 your legislation treat those inmates who are

                 in local facilities waiting to -- for, you

                 know, placement in the state facility, in the

                 state system?

                            SENATOR HANNON:    I believe -- it

                 would simply be -- it's -- the technical

                 answer is what's in the bill in lines 8 and 9.

                 Medical services to any person incarcerated in

                 a local correctional facility is defined in

                 Section 2 of the Correction Law.

                            I believe that while their status

                 may be state-ready, they would still fulfill





                                                          657



                 that definition and therefore come under the

                 provisions of this proposed statute.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    All right.

                 Thank you.

                            Mr. President, briefly, on the

                 legislation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery, on the bill.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes.  I note

                 that Senator Hannon uses the example of Tupac

                 Shakur.  So I'm surprised that it's not the

                 "Tupac Shakur Bill," as we tend to label our

                 bills by someone.

                            But nonetheless, I want to just

                 make a -- I want to say that this bill, I

                 think, is very far-reaching in terms of

                 looking to receive some reimbursement based on

                 the incarceration of people.  And there are

                 some questions that we need to answer, I

                 think, before we try to do this legislation.

                            And especially in light of the fact

                 that we have almost 300,000 people who would

                 be governed by this particular legislation, we

                 need to really know what the impact would be,

                 both in terms of local as well as our state





                                                          658



                 correctional system, and to really figure out

                 if this is necessary.

                            I don't believe it is.  I believe

                 that we do have a stream of revenue that is

                 specifically established to cover these

                 issues.  And I don't believe that we should be

                 looking to further tax the insurance system so

                 that we have one more reason why we create a

                 larger pool of uninsured people in our state.

                            So, Mr. President, I'll be voting

                 no on this legislation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Duane.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.  On the bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Duane, on the bill.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    I would have

                 thought that particularly in light of the

                 terrible situation that happened in the Nassau

                 County jail, where an inmate was basically

                 murdered by correctional officers, that we

                 would take more care in terms of how it is

                 that we treat incarcerated people who are -

                 who need health care.  I think Nassau County





                                                          659



                 shows up a lot of the problems that we have in

                 jails, and rather than to give them more

                 control over the health care and really the

                 life-and-death situation of incarcerated

                 people, we would take more care.

                            Tragically, this bill is exactly

                 the same as last year.  Legitimate concerns

                 that were raised last year were not addressed

                 in the bill.  I'm not sure why it is that

                 we're so careless with our legislation which

                 we bring before this body.  And I come from a

                 place where debate and actual public hearings

                 on legislation leads to better legislation.

                 Apparently that's not how things are done

                 here.

                            And in fact, I'm led to believe

                 that there must be a lot of things in this

                 bill that are indefensible, in that debate is

                 being cut off, basically, on some of the great

                 shortfalls in this legislation.

                            I can only imagine a world where

                 incarcerated people carry their insurance

                 cards around with them at all times.  Are they

                 also to be given telephone cards so they can

                 call their insurance carriers to make sure





                                                          660



                 that they'll be covered by their HMOs when

                 they're in prison?

                            I think there's a lot of things

                 that have not been addressed in this bill.  I

                 think it's a real tragedy, regarding the

                 arrogance of this body, that people are

                 unwilling to discuss shortfalls in

                 legislation.  Because isn't what we're

                 supposed to be doing is making legislation

                 that in fact will benefit the people of the

                 state of New York?  And shouldn't we all make

                 sure that we commit ourselves to listening to

                 information on all these bills before we

                 actually vote on them?

                            I'll be voting no on this bill,

                 because this bill needs to be fixed.  It's not

                 in good shape.  And it's a tragedy that the

                 sponsor of the legislation doesn't want to

                 listen to what's wrong with the bill.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    One of the

                 difficulties in dealing with legislation is

                 trying to set the boundaries.  And I think





                                                          661



                 I've pretty well sufficiently outlined what

                 this bill is intended to do:  the limited

                 purposes and how well it achieves those

                 limited purposes.

                            When I explained all of that two

                 years ago and when I explained it last year to

                 Senator Duane on this floor, I thought I was

                 sufficiently convincing because I received no

                 communication, written or oral, in the

                 intervening time as to what were the real

                 problems with the bill.

                            And I've just outlined what I

                 believe to be the merits of this in terms of

                 assisting the municipality.  And I would point

                 out that there have been some real problems at

                 the Nassau County jail, and there's no excuse

                 for those.  And there's a whole procedure

                 that's going on to deal with it.  But this

                 legislation was introduced far prior to those

                 coming to light or even occurring.

                            And I would point out that by

                 putting this into effect in the system, a

                 revenue stream, that the incentives will be

                 for the prison system to get better health

                 care.  Because there won't be the limits of a





                                                          662



                 budget appropriation, there will be the

                 ability to tap existing health insurance.  So

                 we would see a better system.  And if there

                 are 300,000 eligible for this, as Senator

                 Montgomery says, well, won't that assist those

                 individuals for which concern has been raised?

                            So I would think that there's

                 several different points of merit to this, and

                 it ought to be repassed again.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 56.  Nays,

                 2.  Senators Duane and Montgomery recorded in

                 the negative.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Kuhl, that completes the

                 reading of the controversial calendar.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes, Mr.

                 President.





                                                          663



                            Before we adjourn, we would like to

                 announce that there will be a Majority

                 Conference, a short Majority Conference in the

                 Majority Conference Room, Room 332,

                 immediately after conclusion of session.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    There

                 will be a meeting of the Majority Conference

                 immediately after session in the Majority

                 Conference Room.

                            Senator Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    And can we return

                 to the order of standing committees.  And I

                 believe there's a report up there of a couple

                 of committees.  Could we ask that they be

                 read, please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Reports

                 of standing committees.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator Saland,

                 from the Committee on Children and Families,

                 reports:

                            Senate Print 674A, by Senator Rath,

                 an act to amend the Family Court Act;

                            2722, by Senator Saland, an act to

                 amend the Family Court Act;





                                                          664



                            2724, by Senator Saland, an act to

                 amend the Family Court Act;

                            3987, by Senator Saland, an act to

                 amend the Family Court Act and the Criminal

                 Procedure Law;

                            4439A, by Senator Skelos, an act to

                 amend the Social Services Law;

                            And 4857, by Senator Saland, an act

                 to amend the Family Court Act and the

                 Executive Law.

                            All bills ordered direct to third

                 reading.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Without

                 objection, all bills directly to Third

                 Reading.

                            Senator Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes.  Is there any

                 housekeeping at the desk, Mr. President?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The desk

                 is clean, Senator.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    All right.  There

                 being no further business to come before the

                 Senate, I move we adjourn until February 14,

                 Valentine's Day, at 3:00 p.m., intervening

                 days to be legislative days.





                                                          665



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    On

                 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until

                 Monday, February 14th, at 3:00 p.m.

                 Intervening days will be legislative days.

                            (Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the

                 Senate adjourned.)