Regular Session - March 7, 2000

                                                              1066



                           NEW YORK STATE SENATE





                          THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD









                             ALBANY, NEW YORK

                               March 7, 2000

                                 3:08 p.m.





                              REGULAR SESSION







                 SENATOR PATRICIA K. McGEE, Acting President

                 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary

















                                                          1067



                           P R O C E E D I N G S

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Senate will come to order.

                            I ask everyone present to please

                 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of

                 Allegiance.

                            (Whereupon, the assemblage recited

                 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    In the

                 absence of clergy, may we bow our heads in a

                 moment of silence.

                            (Whereupon, the assemblage

                 respected a moment of silence.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Reading

                 of the Journal.

                            THE SECRETARY:    In Senate,

                 Monday, March 6, the Senate met pursuant to

                 adjournment.  The Journal of Saturday, March

                 4, was read and approved.  On motion, Senate

                 adjourned.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Without

                 objection, the Journal stands approved as

                 read.

                            Presentation of petitions.

                            Messages from the Assembly.





                                                          1068



                            Messages from the Governor.

                            Reports of standing committees.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Madam President,

                 if we can just hold up a second for Senator

                 Lack.

                            Madam President, if we take up with

                 reports of standing committees.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator Lack,

                 from the Committee on Judiciary, reports the

                 following nominations.

                            As a Judge of the Family Court for

                 the County of Chemung, David M. Brockway, of

                 Horseheads.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Lack.

                            SENATOR LACK:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.  It's my pleasure to rise to move

                 the nomination of David M. Brockway of

                 Horseheads as a judge of the Family Court for

                 the County of Chemung.

                            Judge Brockway appeared before the

                 Judiciary Committee this morning.  His





                                                          1069



                 credentials have been vetted by the staff of

                 the committee.  They've been found eminently

                 satisfactory.  After questioning by the

                 committee this morning, he was unanimously -

                 unanimously with one negative vote, sorry -

                 referred to the floor of the Senate for

                 consideration this afternoon.

                            And it is my pleasure to be able to

                 yield to -- where is Senator Kuhl?  Well, to

                 Senator Kuhl, if he was here.

                            But in the meantime, why don't I

                 spend a moment and give you somewhat of the

                 resume of Judge Brockway, who has been an

                 assistant public defender, assignment to the

                 city court judge, village court judge in

                 Chemung County.  He has been voted New York

                 State's Magistrate of the Year.  He also, in

                 1999, issued Brockway's Bench Book for Local

                 Courts, and indeed is one of the most eminent

                 local jurists in the state.

                            The Governor is certainly to be

                 congratulated for sending his nomination to

                 the Senate as a judge of the Family Court.

                            In addition, he has had a wide

                 range of community activities, including being





                                                          1070



                 president of the Kiwanis Club of Horseheads,

                 involved with the Indian Guides and YMCA

                 programs in his area.  And he is indeed a

                 welcome addition to the Family Court of the

                 State of New York.

                            One moment.

                            Madam President, I would most

                 respectfully yield to Senator Kuhl.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    You're

                 welcome, Senator.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    And thank you,

                 Senator Lack.  Thank you, colleagues, for

                 indulging my delay.

                            As a matter of fact, I was not only

                 working on school aid, but I was having a

                 conversation with the Majority Leader.  The

                 Majority Leader was so enthralled and excited

                 about the qualifications of this candidate

                 that he said, "I'll be right into the chamber

                 also."  So I expect him to be following right

                 along behind me.





                                                          1071



                            So it's my great pleasure, as I

                 indicated -- and here is the Majority Leader

                 to also support this candidate and another

                 candidate.

                            Anyway, it's my pleasure to stand

                 up here on the floor of the Senate and

                 recognize Dave Brockway.  David Brockway is

                 one of those individuals who has really known

                 what he's wanted to do for a long time, and

                 that was to work his way up the judicial

                 ladder and provide service to our community.

                            He's done that in a variety of

                 different ways.  But most importantly, he has

                 really toiled in the trenches.  He's been a

                 justice in a village justice court for the

                 last 19 years and a practicing attorney at the

                 same time.  And certainly he's seen it all -

                 not only family confrontations, but the actual

                 criminal aspect.

                            And the Family Court judge in

                 Chemung County really wears several hats.  Not

                 only do they deal with Family Court matters,

                 but from time to time they sit as acting

                 Supreme Court judges, the County Court judge.

                 And they do it all.





                                                          1072



                            So he comes probably as well

                 qualified for this appointment to this

                 position as any judge to any position ever

                 has.  It's my great privilege to be able to be

                 here and support his nomination and ask that

                 it be moved, Madam President.

                            Thank you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 question is on the confirmation of -- Senator

                 Dollinger.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.  I rise to address the

                 nominee and the Chairman of the Judiciary

                 Committee.

                            During this morning's

                 deliberations, I made a statement before the

                 Judiciary Committee of why in committee I

                 voted against this nominee and the other two.

                            I took to heart, frankly, the

                 comments made by Senator DeFrancisco, Senator

                 Kuhl, and Senator Lack, the chair of this

                 committee.  And even though, frankly, I'm

                 still not happy with what happened in

                 Rochester -- and I understand Senator Lack's

                 comments about the reevaluation of the Family





                                                          1073



                 Courts in this state -- and I'm still not

                 happy with the Governor's veto of the two

                 Family Court judges that Senator Alesi,

                 Senator Nozzolio, Senator Maziarz and I worked

                 so hard to put into effect, I'm convinced that

                 my strong protest of what the Governor did

                 shouldn't find its outlet in my voting against

                 these nominees on the floor.

                            And so despite my vote in the

                 committee against these nominees as a protest

                 against the Governor's veto of the Family

                 Court bill, and as a protest for the lack of a

                 coordinated plan to deal with the Family Court

                 problem we all acknowledge exists in this

                 state -- one that I am still going to continue

                 to pester the second floor, pester the members

                 of this chamber to try to resolve, and one

                 that I know the Chairman of the Judiciary

                 Committee is both well aware of and on his way

                 to a solution -- I believe it would be unfair

                 to these nominees, despite my strong protest,

                 to vote no.  So I will be voting yes in favor

                 of these nominees.

                            I continue to say, as I have said

                 repeatedly on this floor, the nominees for the





                                                          1074



                 Family Court, as the nominees for the other

                 judgeships in this state, have been of top

                 quality and have been topnotch.  The three we

                 have today continue that tradition.  I want my

                 colleagues to know that I was swayed by their

                 words.  I will not stop my advocacy for the

                 Family Court judges and a solution to the

                 Family Court problem in Monroe County, but I

                 will vote in favor of all three of these

                 nominees and wish them good luck.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Thank

                 you, Senator Dollinger.

                            The question is on the confirmation

                 of David M. Brockway, of Horseheads, as Judge

                 of the Family Court for the County of Chemung.

                 All in favor signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    David M.

                 Brockway, of Horseheads, is hereby confirmed

                 as Judge of the Family Court of the County of

                 Chemung.

                            The Honorable Judge Brockway is in





                                                          1075



                 the gallery with us today and is joined by his

                 wife, Barbara, and his children, Matthew and

                 Kelly.

                            And on behalf of the Senate of the

                 State of New York, we welcome you to our

                 chambers for this very delightful occasion.

                            (Applause.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    As a Judge of the

                 Family Court for the County of Onondaga,

                 Martha Walsh Hood, of Marietta.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Lack.

                            SENATOR LACK:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.

                            I rise once again to move the

                 nomination of Martha Walsh Hood, of Marietta,

                 as a Judge of the Family Court for the County

                 of Onondaga.  We received the nomination from

                 the Governor.  Her credentials were found to

                 be very satisfactory by the committee.  She

                 appeared before the members of the committee

                 this morning and was moved to the floor for

                 consideration at this time.





                                                          1076



                            And I would most respectfully yield

                 the floor for purposes of a second to Senator

                 DeFrancisco.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 DeFrancisco.

                            SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:    I rise to

                 second the nomination of Martha Walsh Hood.

                            And it's just wonderful that we

                 will have a female Family Court judge in

                 Onondaga County.  It's wonderful that she

                 happens to be a member of one of the most

                 outstanding families in our community, that

                 has years and years of public service.  And

                 she is following that outstanding tradition.

                            But it's not really because of

                 either of those reasons that I rise, although

                 they're very admirable and very important.

                 Martha Walsh Hood is an excellent attorney who

                 has served her clients well.  She's been in

                 the trenches handling the most difficult cases

                 for indigent clients, and also for women and

                 children in the Family Court, and she has done

                 an outstanding job in that regard.  She

                 understands their problems, she understands

                 the needs of attorneys who practice in Family





                                                          1077



                 Court.

                            And, most importantly, she is a

                 person of utmost integrity and a person of

                 class.

                            And I really am very, very proud

                 that she's a constituent of mine.  And I'm

                 very, very proud that she's going to serve all

                 the people of Onondaga County, and she will

                 serve as an outstanding Family Court judge.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 question is on the confirmation of Martha

                 Walsh Hood, of Marietta -- I'm sorry, Senator

                 Hoffmann.

                            SENATOR HOFFMANN:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            I too would like to rise to second

                 the nomination of Martha Walsh Hood.  She

                 resides in the Senate district represented by

                 Senator DeFrancisco, but it's within the

                 County of Onondaga, and I have enjoyed the

                 experience of watching this very talented

                 young woman as a legislator, as a member of

                 that very distinguished family that is known

                 for its dedication to public service now for

                 two generations.





                                                          1078



                            And it would be inappropriate for

                 me to let this moment go by without saying how

                 happy I am to welcome her to this Capitol

                 chamber today and to congratulate her and her

                 family on this most distinguished position.  I

                 too know that she will serve with great, great

                 vigor, and she will bring a most important and

                 meaningful perspective to the Family Court of

                 Onondaga County.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Thank

                 you.

                            Senator Nozzolio.

                            SENATOR NOZZOLIO:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            Madam President, I rise to echo the

                 comments of Senator DeFrancisco and Senator

                 Hoffmann on this excellent appointment to the

                 bench.  That I certainly have been honored to

                 be connected to the Walsh family, as one who

                 was brought into politics by Bill Walsh and

                 worked with the Walsh family.

                            And I know the entire Walsh clan is

                 extremely proud of the wonderful

                 accomplishments of this fine nominee.  I add

                 my support and congratulations on this





                                                          1079



                 excellent appointment.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Thank

                 you, Senator.

                            The question is on the confirmation

                 of Martha Walsh Hood, of Marietta, as a Judge

                 of the Family Court of the County of Onondaga.

                 All in favor signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Martha

                 Walsh Hood, of Marietta, is hereby confirmed

                 as Judge of the Family Court of the County of

                 Onondaga.

                            She is joined in the gallery by her

                 husband, Paul, and her children, Allison and

                 Sean.

                            May I take this opportunity to

                 welcome you to the Senate chambers on this

                 very joyous occasion, and to say

                 congratulations to you on behalf of the Senate

                 and the State of New York.

                            (Applause.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The





                                                          1080



                 Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    As a Judge of the

                 Family Court for the County of Saratoga,

                 Gilbert L. Abramson, of Halfmoon.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Lack.

                            SENATOR LACK:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.

                            I rise once again, this time most

                 happily, to move the nomination of a member of

                 the Senate's own family, Gilbert L. Abramson,

                 of Halfmoon, as a judge of the Family Court

                 for the County of Saratoga.

                            His credentials were examined very

                 scrupulously by the staff of the committee,

                 including his work for the past 12 years in

                 the Senate, and found to be eminently

                 satisfactory.  He appeared before the

                 committee this morning, and with the exception

                 of saying some nice things about Senator

                 Saland, was virtually very nicely approved by

                 the committee and moved to the floor of the

                 Senate for consideration this afternoon.

                            And it is with great pleasure and

                 with a great deal of respect that I yield for





                                                          1081



                 purposes of a second to the Majority Leader,

                 Senator Bruno.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Bruno.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.  Thank you, Senator Lack.

                            I am very proud and honored that I

                 can stand here and speak on behalf of a very

                 distinguished constituent of the 43rd

                 District, residing in Saratoga, the town of

                 Clifton Park.  And it's doubly a pleasure

                 because we've heard about other qualified

                 people to serve in the Family Court, which I

                 think is one of the most sensitive and

                 important courts in this state.

                            And Gil comes with a background

                 that is second to none, having learned from

                 his mentor, Steve Saland.  And Steve, I think,

                 when he stands up, will probably say the

                 reverse, that he learned greatly.  But

                 together, they made a team.  And there isn't

                 any law in this state that has affected

                 children or families that Gil has not been

                 instrumental in helping to formulate.

                            And his wife, Beth, is here, and I





                                                          1082



                 know she's very proud, and his son, Josh,

                 other members of his family.  And I am proud

                 to rise and speak on behalf of Gil Abramson,

                 one of our constituents and, again, a person

                 that I am very proud to be here supporting.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Saland.

                            SENATOR SALAND:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.  I rise, perhaps with mixed

                 emotions, but really with the greatest of

                 pleasure.

                            Let me just tell you, Gil, that you

                 almost blew this, because Senator Bruno said,

                 "We're letting him go?"  So let that be fair

                 warning to you that what Senator Bruno had to

                 say truly came from the heart and his

                 knowledge of your performance.

                            What can I say about an

                 extraordinarily fine and decent human being

                 who has served not merely ably but

                 extraordinarily well as counsel to the Senate

                 Children and Families Committee -- a man who

                 has been a source of strength and knowledge to

                 me, as the chairman of that committee, and

                 perhaps beyond that, a man who has just been a





                                                          1083



                 wonderful friend.

                            I can think of nobody who brings to

                 the bench a greater wealth of knowledge and

                 background than does Gil Abramson.  And that

                 certainly is not to take anything away from

                 the fine people whose nominations have been

                 moved immediately before his.  It's just that

                 Gil has been so keenly and materially

                 involved.  Whether it be child support, child

                 abuse, domestic violence, he's been at the

                 table, he's been the one who has been part and

                 parcel of negotiating the bills that

                 ultimately were signed into law.

                            He's the one who, as he mentioned

                 during the course of his comments a bit

                 earlier, who on more than one occasion has

                 been asked by a judge, when he has appeared in

                 court in Saratoga County, "Well, what was the

                 legislative intent?"  And certainly nobody

                 would know it any better than he.

                            But beyond his superb intellect,

                 beyond his great ability -- and certainly

                 those abilities will serve you well, as will

                 your legislative experience here in the course

                 of hammering out agreements from the bench -





                                                          1084



                 the enormous wisdom and perhaps the judicious

                 nature are something which he's been blessed

                 with, something which I'm sure his parents are

                 most proud of, and certainly his wife and son,

                 Josh, are extraordinarily proud of.

                            I can only say, Gil, that in order

                 to somehow or other puncture the specter of

                 perfection, the bench will require you to be

                 there in a timely fashion, and you will have

                 to move your cases in a timely fashion, Gil.

                 But I'm sure you will be up to that somewhat

                 difficult task.

                            I will miss you and your counsel

                 terribly, but it's for a far greater cause.  I

                 congratulate you, Beth, your parents, your

                 family, your son, Josh.  And may you be as

                 capable and as exemplary of a judge as you

                 have been a counsel.  God bless you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.

                            I'm delighted to rise and support

                 the confirmation of Gil Abramson as a judge of

                 the Family Court.  Throughout the years -





                                                          1085



                 and, Steve, we agree:  He taught you.

                            SENATOR SALAND:    No question

                 about it.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    But he's taught

                 you well.

                            And you have taught many of us in

                 this chamber that have dealt in the areas of,

                 obviously, child abuse, orders of protection,

                 adoption.

                            So much of the legislation in this

                 state concerning families should be named

                 after you, because you put your expertise, you

                 put your everyday experience, and you put your

                 love of the law behind the effort in making

                 all the legislation that we pass concerning

                 family offenses, family law on the books.

                            And we are going to miss you.  I

                 know that Steve, not only from a governmental

                 point of view but also a personal point of

                 view, is going to miss you on a daily basis.

                 But your expertise, your institutional

                 knowledge is going to be missed by the entire

                 Senate chamber.

                            We salute the Governor on this

                 appointment, and certainly the confirmation





                                                          1086



                 which is to come, and certainly we look

                 forward to wonderful decisions that will be

                 directing or indicating to the Legislature

                 that you should maybe do this, or you should

                 maybe do that, or we were wrong in doing

                 something.  But we look forward to them

                 because we know they will be well-reasoned and

                 in the best interests of the people of the

                 state of New York.

                            God bless you in your new endeavor,

                 Gil.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Madam

                 President, as you will appreciate, our time in

                 the Assembly was a lot of fun.  But possibly

                 the best aspect of being in this house is the

                 ability to stand up and talk about an

                 appointment of a friend and a colleague.

                            The year was 1985, and Senator John

                 Dunne took up the issue of surrogate

                 parenting.  And he said, "You know, we ought

                 to go talk to Mary Goodhue.  She's the chair

                 of the Children and Families Committee, and I

                 want to set up a meeting with her counsel."





                                                          1087



                            So I'm young, enthusiastic, and

                 know nothing -- some might argue that not much

                 has changed in 15 years -- and I go over and I

                 meet Harry Love, who to this day I think is

                 probably the best-named advocate on behalf of

                 children in this state, and Gil Abramson.  And

                 here comes this gentle, methodical -- not

                 intense, but someone who, when he levels his

                 gaze at you, you feel like, Uh-oh, I've done

                 something really bad, or I've hit on something

                 right.

                            We were charged with trying to

                 draft a surrogate parenting bill to deal with

                 this tremendously controversial issue.  And I

                 can remember one particular Sunday afternoon,

                 Gil and I go and we hole up, I think it was in

                 our conference room in John Dunne's office,

                 and were there for five or six hours, going

                 over the provisions that we wanted to draft

                 for the bill.

                            And I, of course, am rushing and

                 saying, "Well, why don't we do this?"  And

                 "Why don't we take this provision?"  And he

                 looks at me and he says, "Well, wait a minute.

                 Have you checked this case?"  And he pulls out





                                                          1088



                 a tome of cases.  Or, "Have you looked at this

                 statute?  How about this regulation?"  After

                 about five hours of this, I wanted to strangle

                 him.  And at that point in time he wouldn't

                 have been a judge, and I wouldn't have been a

                 Senator.

                            Gil and I continued our

                 relationship through that process, and I came

                 to understand that he also had -- he was also

                 a practitioner.  He practiced in this area.

                            And the most extraordinary thing

                 about Gil Abramson is his effect on children

                 and his understanding of the effect on

                 children of divorce, of matrimonial

                 difficulties, of the unrest in a family.  It

                 is amazing to me that with all the cynicism

                 out there, that the process works.

                            Ladies and gentlemen, the person

                 who we send to the Family Court, I cannot

                 imagine anyone more qualified, better

                 prepared, or with a better understanding of

                 the human condition, particularly that of a

                 child, than Gil Abramson.  I've watched it

                 countless times.  It is such a privilege to be

                 able to stand here as a member of this body





                                                          1089



                 and to say, ladies and gentlemen, job well

                 done, we have been well served.

                            And I know that you're going be

                 very well received when you go to the bench.

                 God bless you, Gil.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 LaValle.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            I think the tone has been right

                 here, that we have, one, lost a very valued

                 staff member in the Senate, one who has

                 provided his expertise to the chair of the

                 Committee on Children and Families, who has

                 interacted with us individually on our pieces

                 of legislation that have come before the

                 committee.

                            But if there is ever clearly an

                 individual who's going to the Family Court who

                 has the right demeanor to be in that court,

                 who has patience, knowledge, who has a good

                 deal of heart and caring about the people that

                 will be coming into that court -- and for

                 those who have not been in Family Court, some

                 of the toughest, most difficult cases come





                                                          1090



                 into that court and require someone to really

                 look at, very carefully, the issues of whether

                 a parent who comes before the court who wants

                 to give up custody of their child, whether

                 that is indeed a right decision, a major

                 decision -- or those that come in abused.  Gil

                 Abramson really will have all of those

                 qualities.

                            There is something else, that we

                 have made major changes to the Family Court

                 Act that Gil has guided through as counsel.

                 I'm just wondering, Senator Saland, how many

                 times Judge Abramson will be penning a letter

                 that maybe we moved a little bit too quick on

                 this issue or that, and we need to do a little

                 fine-tuning.  But that's all right, because we

                 will have had the input of someone who will be

                 out there knowing what the legislative intent

                 was and whether it's working right.

                            As everyone has said, Gil, a job

                 well done.  We know you're going to do a great

                 job.  And God bless you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 question is on the confirmation of Gilbert L.

                 Abramson, of Halfmoon, as a Judge of the





                                                          1091



                 Family Court for the County of Saratoga.  All

                 in favor signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Gilbert

                 L. Abramson, of Halfmoon, is hereby confirmed

                 as a Judge of the Family Court for the County

                 of Saratoga.

                            Judge Abramson is joined in the

                 gallery by his wife, Betty; son, Joshua;

                 parents, Sidney and Shirley Abramson; brother,

                 Clifford; sister-in-law, Karen Messinger.

                            On behalf of the State of New York

                 and the New York State Senate, we welcome you

                 on this joyous occasion.

                            (Applause.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator McGee,

                 from the Committee on Alcoholism and Drug

                 Abuse, reports:

                            Senate Print 1093, by Senator

                 Nozzolio, an act to amend the Vehicle and





                                                          1092



                 Traffic Law;

                            2029, by Senator Fuschillo, an act

                 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

                            2031, by Senator Fuschillo, an act

                 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

                            2032, by Senator Fuschillo, an act

                 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

                            2064, by Senator Nozzolio, an act

                 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

                            And 4822, by Senator McGee, an act

                 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.

                            Senator Lack, from the Committee on

                 Judiciary, reports:

                            Senate Print 6744, by Senator Lack,

                 an act to amend the Judiciary Law and the

                 Penal Law.

                            Senator Hannon, from the Committee

                 on Health, reports:

                            Senate Print 1488A, by Senator

                 Marchi, an act to amend the Public Health Law;

                            4765, by Senator Hannon, an act to

                 amend the Public Health Law;

                            5088, by Senator Hannon, an act to

                 amend the Public Health Law;

                            And 6729, by Senator Marcellino, an





                                                          1093



                 act to amend the Public Health Law.

                            Senator Trunzo, from the Committee

                 on Transportation, reports:

                            Senate Print 3588, by Senator

                 Libous, an act to amend the Highway Law;

                            6484, by Senator Marchi, an act to

                 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

                            6673, by Senator Bonacic, an act to

                 amend the Highway Law;

                            And 6724, by Senator Trunzo, an act

                 to amend the Transportation Law and the

                 Vehicle and Traffic Law.

                            Senator Morahan, from the Committee

                 on Veterans and Military Affairs, reports:

                            Senate Print 913, by Senator

                 Larkin, an act to amend the Education Law;

                            5838, by Senator Morahan, an act to

                 amend the Military Law;

                            5861, with amendments, by Senator

                 Morahan, an act to amend the Military Law;

                            5882, by Senator Farley, an act to

                 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

                            5885, by Senator Morahan, an act to

                 amend the Military Law;

                            6310, by Senator McGee, an act to





                                                          1094



                 amend the Highway Law;

                            6437, by Senator Morahan, an act to

                 amend the Military Law;

                            6438, by Senator Morahan, an act to

                 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

                            And 6511, by Senator Morahan, an

                 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law.

                            All bills ordered direct to third

                 reading.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Without

                 objection, all bills ordered directly to third

                 reading.

                            Reports of select committees.

                            Communications and reports from

                 state officers.

                            Senator Fuschillo.

                            SENATOR FUSCHILLO:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            On behalf of Senator Maltese, I

                 move that the following bills be discharged

                 from their respective committees and be

                 recommitted with instructions to strike the

                 enacting clause:  Senate Print Numbers 159,

                 714, 2161, 3700, and 5233.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    So





                                                          1095



                 ordered.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    May we please

                 adopt the Resolution Calendar, with the

                 exception of Resolution 3252.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    All in

                 favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar,

                 with the exception of Resolution 3252, signify

                 by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Resolution Calendar is adopted.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Madam President,

                 there's a privilege resolution at the desk by

                 Senator Trunzo.  May we please have it read in

                 its entirety and move for its immediate

                 adoption.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Legislative

                 resolution by Senators Trunzo and Bruno,





                                                          1096



                 memorializing the New York Congressional

                 Delegation to exhort the President of the

                 United States to restore federal funding for

                 highway and bridge projects in New York.

                            "WHEREAS, Congress in 1998 adopted

                 the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st

                 century for highway funding (TEA 21); and

                            "WHEREAS, the reauthorization

                 legislation clearly stated that all gas tax

                 revenues will be preserved for transportation

                 improvements; and

                            "WHEREAS, The legislation provided

                 that should tax revenues be higher than

                 anticipated, each state would receive a

                 proportional share of the surplus.

                            "The President, in releasing his

                 fiscal budget proposal for 2001, has diverted

                 from all fifty states $1.3 billion from the

                 Highway Trust Fund, thereby reducing New

                 York's share of highway funding by nearly

                 $67 million, which is the third largest

                 reduction among all states; and

                            "WHEREAS, The State of New York is

                 expected to adopt a five-year Transportation

                 Plan for highway improvements, the State of





                                                          1097



                 New York is vitally concerned about the impact

                 of losing nearly $67 million in highway funds;

                 and

                            "WHEREAS, This Federal Highway

                 Program was designed to assist states in

                 maintaining safe and efficient highways; now,

                 therefore, be it

                            "RESOLVED, That this Legislative

                 Body pause in its deliberations to memorialize

                 the New York Congressional Delegation to

                 exhort the President of the United States to

                 comply with the 1998 legislative formula for

                 highway funding and to restore $67 million in

                 funding for New York; and be it further

                            "RESOLVED, That copies of this

                 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted

                 to the New York Congressional Delegation,

                 including United States Senator Daniel Patrick

                 Moynihan and United States Senator Chuck

                 Schumer."

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 question is on the resolution.

                            SENATOR CONNOR:    Madam President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Connor.





                                                          1098



                            SENATOR CONNOR:    On the

                 resolution.

                            Madam President, I have several

                 problems with this resolution, one of which is

                 it just came out immediately, and I have had

                 no way in the last ten minutes of

                 ascertaining, number one, the accuracy of

                 figures in here, the $1.3 billion and New

                 York's share of $67 million.

                            I further object to this resolution

                 on the grounds that, frankly, I think some of

                 its language is inappropriate and misconstrues

                 what was proposed.  We're talking about the

                 President proposing his budget.  Ostensibly,

                 it would result in this cut of TEA 21 money.

                 Now, number one, I think the resolution is not

                 accurate when it says that the 1998

                 legislation said that the excess gas tax would

                 go into the Highway Fund.

                            In fact, my learned counsel points

                 out that with respect to the Highway Trust

                 Fund, it provides that at that time any excess

                 amounts more than $8 billion cash balance in

                 the Highway Account will be transferred to the

                 General Fund; i.e., once you get over that





                                                          1099



                 amount in excess receipts of gas tax, there is

                 no requirement that it go into the TEA

                 program.

                            Be that as it may.  I think it may

                 be a good idea to put it there.  The fact is

                 that language in this resolution talks about

                 the President's failure to comply with an old

                 law.  Well, he's no more in failure of

                 compliance in making a budget proposal than

                 Governor Pataki is when he proposes a budget

                 that cuts TAP.  That doesn't mean he's out of

                 compliance with last year's law.  Part of the

                 process is the Executive proposes and the

                 Legislature disposes.

                            And I think the thrust of this

                 resolution is really wrong.  The President is

                 presenting his budget proposal.  To

                 memorialize the Congressional delegation to

                 exhort the President to do something is

                 misdirected.  We ought to be directing this

                 resolution toward memorializing our

                 Congressional delegation to get the Speaker of

                 the House of Representatives and the Majority

                 Leader of the U.S. Senate, such big spenders

                 as they are, to restore the money and reject





                                                          1100



                 the President's proposal.

                            Even as I certainly trust -- and

                 let me say, Madam President, we know, we know

                 in New York we have a serious crisis with

                 respect to bridges and highways.  A study in

                 1999 by the University of North Carolina,

                 Professor Harkin, indicated New York's highway

                 and bridge needs are among the highest in the

                 nation.  His study found that 9.3 percent of

                 state-owned roads were in very poor condition

                 and that New York -- that New York State's

                 17,388 highway bridges were ranked 43rd in the

                 nation in deficiencies and would require

                 $10.7 billion in order to make the necessary

                 repairs.  And, by the way, our traffic grew

                 13 percent in the last -- between 1990 and

                 1997, in preparation for that study.

                            So no one doubts that we have a

                 grave need here.  The disappointment is,

                 frankly, that Governor Pataki has made

                 essentially a flat budget proposal with

                 respect to bridges and highways.  This year it

                 totals $1.6 billion, basically things that

                 were already authorized and now are coming on

                 line.  Woefully inadequate.  Indeed, there are





                                                          1101



                 estimates that -- and, by the way, the

                 Governor's proposed five-year program is

                 $14.3 billion.  But every expert that's looked

                 at it says we have a need more on the order of

                 $26 billion.

                            That's why all those folks were up

                 here about two or three weeks ago criticizing

                 the fact that the Governor won't put enough

                 money into bridges and highways to meet

                 New York's infrastructure needs and, indeed,

                 to prepare New York for economic recovery and

                 growth in the future.

                            So yes, there's a problem with

                 bridges and tunnels.  A big part of the

                 problem is here right here in this Capitol,

                 Madam President, right here in this Capitol

                 with this Governor's proposal.  And I'm not

                 happy if there will be a $60 million cut in

                 TEA 21 funds.  We don't know that to be true,

                 since we haven't had time to make necessary

                 inquiries in Washington, and this just came

                 out.

                            But, secondly, let's do something

                 effective in Washington.  Let the Majority

                 here call Speaker Hastert and Trent Lott and





                                                          1102



                 say, Put that money back in.  That's how the

                 budget process -- even as I'm saying to the

                 Majority here, put that money back in New York

                 State's budget.

                            This is just press-release

                 rhetoric, exhorting the President to somehow

                 or other modify the budget he's already

                 proposed.  Let's go to Congress and say, Do

                 something about it yourselves.  Get the

                 leadership in both houses down there to put

                 more money into bridges and tunnels, rather

                 than decry that the President's made a

                 proposal.

                            Frankly, I think it's

                 mischaracterized it to say it doesn't comply

                 with existing law.  Everybody's budget

                 proposal this year doesn't comply with last

                 year's provisions.  That's what a budget

                 process is about.

                            So I'm going to vote no on this

                 under the circumstances, Madam President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Thank

                 you, Senator.

                            Any other Senator wishing to speak

                 on the resolution?





                                                          1103



                            The question is on the resolution.

                 All in favor signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 resolution is adopted.

                            Senator Velella.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Madam

                 President, may we now go to Senate Resolution

                 3252, by Senator Smith, and have the

                 resolution read.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    By Senator Smith,

                 Legislative Resolution Number 3252,

                 memorializing Governor George E. Pataki to

                 proclaim March 16, 2000, as "Hunger Awareness

                 Day" in the State of New York.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Smith.

                            SENATOR SMITH:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.

                            I would like to give everyone in





                                                          1104



                 the chamber the opportunity to be a cosponsor

                 on this resolution.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Velella, Senator Smith would like to open this

                 resolution up for cosponsorship.  Could we

                 please put everybody on the resolution.

                 Anyone who does not wish to do so should

                 notify the desk.

                            The question is on the resolution.

                 All in favor signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 resolution is adopted.

                            The resolution is open for

                 cosponsorship.  Everyone will be put on the

                 resolution.  If you do not wish to be put on

                 it, please notify the desk.

                            Senator Velella.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Madam

                 President, may we now go to the

                 noncontroversial calendar.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The





                                                          1105



                 Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 83, by Senator McGee, Senate Print 4314A, an

                 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to the

                 settlement of claims by certain towns.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section -

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Lay it aside.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Lay it

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 90, by Senator McGee, Senate Print 6276A, an

                 act in relation to the dates during which a

                 public hearing may be held.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number





                                                          1106



                 96, by Senator Trunzo, Senate Print 1708, an

                 act to amend the Public Health Law, in

                 relation to public notification.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect on the 180th day.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 135, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 4464A,

                 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law,

                 in relation to reporting of motor vehicle

                 accidents.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect in 60 days.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)





                                                          1107



                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 175, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 1803 -

                            SENATOR SMITH:    Lay it aside,

                 please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is laid aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 188, by Senator Libous -

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    -- Senate Print

                 2088, an act to amend the Real Property Tax

                 Law, in relation to including cooperatively

                 owned dwellings.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is laid aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 191, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 6171, an

                 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in

                 relation to interest on late installment

                 payments.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.





                                                          1108



                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect on the same date and in

                 the same manner as Chapter 447 of the Laws of

                 1999.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 198, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 1541, an

                 act to amend the Public Health Law, in

                 relation to expanding the definition.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number





                                                          1109



                 266, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 745, an

                 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in

                 relation to a taxing district's obtaining.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 278, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 3103, an

                 act authorizing the State University of New

                 York to lease and contract.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.





                                                          1110



                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 279, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 126, an act

                 to amend the Public Health Law, in relation to

                 expanding the network.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 285, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 6357,

                 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation

                 Law, in relation to county responsibility.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the





                                                          1111



                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 347, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2752, an

                 act to authorize the City School District of

                 the City of Poughkeepsie.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 350, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 6681, an

                 act to amend the Education Law and the Penal

                 Law, in relation to violent and disruptive

                 incidents on school grounds.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the





                                                          1112



                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect July 1.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Lay it

                 aside.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is laid aside.

                            Senator Velella, that completes the

                 reading of the noncontroversial calendar.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Madam

                 President, can we have the reading of the

                 controversial calendar now.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Secretary will read.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Can we go to

                 Calendar Number 188.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Secretary will read, beginning with Calendar

                 188.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 188, by Senator Libous, Senate Print 2088, an

                 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in

                 relation to including cooperatively owned





                                                          1113



                 dwellings.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 52.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Calendar 175.  The Secretary will

                 read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 175, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 1803, an

                 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

                 relation to defense of guilty but mentally

                 ill.

                            SENATOR ONORATO:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    An

                 explanation is asked for, please, Senator

                 Padavan.

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            This is the eighth time this body





                                                          1114



                 has considered this legislation -

                            Senator Paterson has his hand up.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Senator

                 Padavan, would you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT McGEE:    The

                 Senator yields.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    I guess it's

                 the eighth time it hasn't -

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    I think we need

                 a little order up here, Mr. President.

                 Senator Paterson is right in front of me, and

                 I can't hear him.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    That's

                 because he's not talking, Senator.

                            (Laughter.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson, why do you rise?

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Mr. President,

                 if Senator Padavan would yield for a question.

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Padavan yields.





                                                          1115



                            SENATOR PATERSON:    I thought that

                 in Senator Padavan's first sentence I could

                 have an objection to this bill.  And he says

                 that this is the eighth time we've discussed

                 it.  Well, Senator Padavan, isn't it true that

                 this is the eighth time it hasn't become law?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    That's true.

                 We passed it on seven previous occasions, the

                 first being 1978.  However, the other house

                 has declined to consider it, either in

                 committee or on the floor.

                            In any event, Mr. President, I

                 think an explanation was asked for.  And while

                 most of you, if not all of you in this

                 chamber, you've heard it probably several

                 times, what we provide for in this proposal is

                 an alternative to what now are two options in

                 the law.

                            One is if someone who has been

                 arrested, having committed a terrible act, a

                 violent act, in pretrial, and before reaching

                 any point in the trial, it is determined that

                 there is some level of insanity, a mental

                 defect, a decision can be made currently by a

                 defendant's attorney to plead acquittal by





                                                          1116



                 reason of insanity.

                            If that fails in any trial, a judge

                 or jury trial, then that person is found

                 guilty.  And in those circumstances, one of

                 two things will happen.  In the first

                 instance, the person will be remanded to a

                 psychiatric facility, hopefully in a secure

                 ward.  And at some point in time -- and this

                 has happened in many, many instances over the

                 years -- that person will be deemed cured by

                 psychiatrists, usually as a result of drug

                 therapy, and released.

                            And tragically, there have been

                 instances thereafter where that very same

                 person, not taking his or her medication,

                 committed another violent act.  In that

                 instance, in my judgment, justice wasn't

                 served, but certainly the public safety was

                 not served.

                            Now, on the other side of the coin,

                 if the insanity defense is rejected, then that

                 person goes to a state prison, is treated like

                 any other criminal.

                            Now, what we're doing here is

                 providing, in fact, a third alternative.





                                                          1117



                 Impairment is acknowledged, and a

                 determination can be made that while that

                 individual knew the consequences of his act

                 when he pushed that person off the platform in

                 the subway, he knew that person was going to

                 be hit by a train and probably killed.  But at

                 the same time, he has some level of mental

                 instability.  And so guilty but mentally ill

                 can be either pleaded for or determined in the

                 course of a trial.

                            Now, what happens thereafter if

                 that person is found guilty but mentally ill?

                 First, he goes to a prison -- after some

                 period, perhaps, in a psychiatric facility -

                 and psychiatric care is mandated, mandated.

                 If that individual at some future date is

                 paroled, or early release or whatever, a

                 requirement would be in the law that that

                 individual continue to take his medication,

                 continue to visit a psychiatrist, if that's

                 required, whatever the regimen that is

                 determined by professionals is.  Should he or

                 she fail to do that, then incarceration can

                 take place again.

                            I believe in this instance we serve





                                                          1118



                 justice and we also serve the needs of the

                 individual involved.  Certainly the situation

                 today doesn't do either of those things well,

                 in certain instances.  I believe this corrects

                 that deficiency.

                            Nineteen other states, the last

                 time we checked, have this statute on their

                 books, the oldest being Michigan, going back

                 to the mid-seventies.  And we have records of

                 some cases that they have tried and dealt with

                 where it was applied and where it worked.

                            It's supported by not only the

                 Governor's office but the Office of Mental

                 Health.  It's supported by the New York State

                 Law Enforcement Council, by the Criminal

                 Justice Board of the City of New York, by the

                 Citizens' Crime Commission, and others.

                            That briefly is an explanation of

                 the proposed statute.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Mr. President,

                 if Senator Padavan would yield for a question.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Padavan, do you continue to yield?





                                                          1119



                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Mr. President,

                 as you may or may not know, I was actually a

                 supporter of Senator Padavan's bill nearly

                 twenty years ago when I worked in the forensic

                 unit of the Queens district attorney's office,

                 and have changed my point of view over the

                 years to opposition.

                            But I think that Senator Padavan is

                 certainly on the right track, because we have

                 had these situations where individuals were

                 found, under the technical definition of our

                 law, as not responsible due to mental disease

                 or disability and were converted to civil

                 status, at times placed in psychiatric care.

                 And it did not become as clear what danger the

                 individual might pose to society, and they

                 would inevitably be released after a certain

                 period of time, and that there were these

                 further acts of violence which perhaps could

                 have been avoided.

                            And I think that that's what

                 Senator Padavan is really trying to address in





                                                          1120



                 this legislation.

                            Since we have performed two hours

                 of debate and disagreement in the past, I'm

                 actually going to show that I really do have a

                 heart and spare Senator Padavan of that today.

                 But I would only let him know at this time to

                 force him to be as prepared as he usually is.

                            But I do have this question.

                 Senator, in your statement you really went to

                 the core of what I think is my disagreement

                 with this bill when you cited the example of

                 the individual who would, as you put it, have

                 knowingly pushed someone in front of the

                 train.  If they knowingly pushed someone off

                 the subway platform onto the tracks, knowing

                 that a train would hit them, then they

                 definitely knew the difference between right

                 and wrong and, as I would see it, should not

                 be found to be not responsible by reason of

                 mental disease or defect, but should just be

                 found guilty.

                            But what I thought you mean by

                 guilty but mentally ill is not to address

                 really the state of mind of the defendant but

                 really to address the state of the





                                                          1121



                 circumstances.  Meaning that this person is

                 guilty of committing the act, but because they

                 are mentally ill we will treat this in a

                 completely different way, since they may not

                 have really -- since we're not really going to

                 be able to determine whether or not they knew

                 the difference between right or wrong, we're

                 going to treat them until such time that we

                 think that they actually not only would

                 understand that but would also take the

                 medication.

                            So I was just wondering if you

                 would clarify for us what the actual meaning

                 of the legislation is.

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Well, thank

                 you, Senator.

                            The meaning is quite clear,

                 actually, in the reading of the bill.  And let

                 me share it with you directly, and so we can

                 all hear it together.

                            Guilty but mentally ill.  If a

                 defendant asserts a defense of not guilty by

                 reason of mental disease or defect, in

                 accordance with Section 40.15 of the Penal

                 Law, the defendant may be found guilty but





                                                          1122



                 mentally ill.  If, after trial, the trier of

                 facts finds all of the following beyond a

                 reasonable doubt:  (A) that the defendant is

                 guilty of a crime -- in most cases, that's

                 quite obvious -- (B) that the defendant was

                 suffering from mental disease or defect but

                 not -- and here's the part that I think is the

                 most significant -- but not to such an extent

                 that he lacks substantial capacity to know or

                 appreciate either the nature and consequences

                 of his conduct or that his conduct was wrong

                 at the time of the commission of the crime.

                            Now, let me add to that by saying

                 you know and I know that when you have a trial

                 and you have dueling psychiatrists -- the

                 defense brings in a psychiatrist that says one

                 thing, the prosecutor brings in a psychiatrist

                 that says something else -- and there that

                 jury's sitting there, and either psychiatrist

                 or lawyers, perhaps, trying to make a

                 judgment.  By putting this in law, I think we

                 make their responsibility easier to discharge

                 as well as improve upon the entire system.

                            So if I understand your question,

                 yes, if the person knowingly knows the





                                                          1123



                 consequences of his act, we would hope -- we

                 would hope that he'd just be found guilty.

                 But at the same time, I think compassion and

                 common sense leads us to also accept the fact

                 that there is some level of impairment with

                 regard to that person, and diminished

                 capacity -- a term of art and a legal term

                 that's used quite frequently -- is in effect,

                 is there.

                            Diminished capacity, mental

                 impairment.  But, as the bill says, not to the

                 extent that it totally eliminates the

                 defendant's knowledge that what he was doing

                 was going to be harmful to the other person.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            So then therefore, Senator, if

                 we've now cleared up what we're going to do

                 about the defendant that is guilty in the

                 sense that, as you now put it, as a state of

                 mind they knew the difference between right

                 and wrong, and we are now going to add this

                 compassion that you talk about, what do we do





                                                          1124



                 with the defendant now that we determine was

                 not able to distinguish between right and

                 wrong at the time that the crime was

                 committed?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    We do nothing

                 in terms of the current law.  Any individual

                 who has committed an act, violent or

                 otherwise, and a determination has been made

                 that that individual did not know the

                 consequences of his or her act, then the

                 current law remains.

                            Obviously, we deal with those

                 individuals in the current system.  They

                 frequently are sent to psychiatric centers

                 throughout our state, usually in secure wards,

                 until such time as a determination has been

                 made that they are able to return to society.

                            We have something now in effect, as

                 you know, called Kendra's Law, which attempts

                 to deal with part of that problem, and which I

                 think was the right thing to do as well.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.  This is my last question, unless,





                                                          1125



                 of course -

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Padavan, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Padavan yields.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    I would ask an

                 additional -- I will ask additional questions,

                 but only if Senator Padavan would bring that

                 photographer back here and let me be included

                 in his album of pictures that he was having

                 taken here.

                            The question is simply this.  Now

                 that you've set up, in a sense, three options

                 rather than two -- we have a person who is

                 guilty of the crime, they knew the difference

                 between right and wrong; the person is guilty

                 but mentally ill, in that they were guilty of

                 the crime but their awareness was perhaps

                 diminished, to some extent, by their mental

                 disease or disability; or what we currently

                 have, which is that the person is not

                 responsible by reason of mental disease or

                 disability, commonly known as the insanity

                 defense.





                                                          1126



                            Now that we have these three

                 options, this comes to the crux of what is

                 really my inability to vote for the

                 legislation.  Isn't it very possible that when

                 presented with the fact that there is a guilty

                 but mentally ill charge that can be given to a

                 jury, that it in some respects prejudices the

                 jury to believe that since the prosecution can

                 establish that the defendant did cause the act

                 of the victim, that it would be more likely

                 that it's guilty but mentally ill than the

                 fact that it could be not responsible by

                 reason of mental disease or disability?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    No, I wouldn't

                 accept that at all, Senator.

                            In the first place, the defendant

                 would have the responsibility -- or his

                 attorney would have the responsibility to

                 seek, as an attorney representing the

                 defendant, the best possible outcome.  Any

                 trial attorney who would turn away from that

                 would obviously not be doing his or her job.

                 So I don't accept that thought on your part.

                            And a determination of guilty but

                 mentally ill may not even be the plea.  It can





                                                          1127



                 be, if that is what the defendant determines,

                 or his attorney determines.

                            So your notion that this is going

                 to provide a vehicle by which more people will

                 not be acquitted by reason of insanity when

                 they should be is totally wrong, in my view.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, I would

                 just like to ask Senator Padavan a couple of

                 questions.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Padavan, do you yield for a question by

                 Senator Montgomery?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Senator yields.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Senator

                 Padavan, I'm not able to follow the

                 intricacies and the technical discussion, but

                 I would just like to ask one question.

                            I'm looking at the memo in support

                 that is attached to the bill, and it says that

                 once the defendant is convicted of a crime,

                 assuming that the person pleads guilty with





                                                          1128



                 mental illness -

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Guilty but

                 mentally ill, pleads that?

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, under

                 your -- in your bill -- under your bill, that

                 the person serves the sentence or is sentenced

                 as per any person charged under that

                 particular crime?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    No, that's not

                 quite true, Senator.  Because if you read the

                 bill itself -

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    They receive

                 a psychiatric examination.

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Yes, you must

                 be given -- and it's in the bill, it's on page

                 2, beginning line 3, "Court shall impose any

                 sentence which could be imposed pursuant to

                 law upon a defendant that is convicted of the

                 same crime.  If the defendant is committed to

                 the custody of the Department of Correctional

                 Services, he shall undergo further evaluation

                 and be given such treatment as is

                 psychiatrically indicated for his mental

                 illness or retardation."  And then it goes on

                 and on and on in that vein.





                                                          1129



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    All right.

                 Now, my -

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    So they're

                 guaranteed, which is not the case now, that

                 that person will receive psychiatric care.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes.  But

                 then does that mean that the Department of

                 Corrections would be mandated, under your

                 legislation -

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Absolutely.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    -- to

                 provide mental health services to mentally ill

                 inmates?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Exactly.

                 That's right.  And we do have -

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Each one

                 that comes in.

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    And we do have

                 some of our correctional facilities that have

                 a greater resource in that regard than some

                 others, that already exist, because we do have

                 people in state prisons who become mentally

                 unbalanced after they're there, for whatever

                 reason.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Mr.





                                                          1130



                 President, if I may pursue just a little bit

                 with Senator Padavan -

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Padavan, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Yes, he

                 does.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    So, Senator

                 Padavan, given the fact that there is such a

                 large percentage, over a quarter of the

                 inmates that are currently in the Department

                 of Corrections who are essentially determined

                 to be mentally ill who are not receiving

                 treatment, so your bill in fact would require

                 that the Department of Corrections provide

                 mental health services -

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Correct.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    -- to any

                 inmate that pleads under your bill?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    And I might add

                 they can do so also in cooperation with the

                 Office of Mental Health.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Okay.  Just

                 one last question.

                            You also indicate that the bill





                                                          1131



                 would require, if -- assuming that they

                 improve their condition while incarcerated and

                 they come out of prison -

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Parole or

                 whatever.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    -- on

                 parole, they then are responsible for pursuing

                 their -

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Treatment

                 regimen, whatever it may be, yes.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yeah, their

                 treatment, based on -- as a condition of

                 parole?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Correct.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    So we now

                 don't have a system which -

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    No.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    -- which

                 provides for a continuum of services from

                 inside to outside?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    We have it now

                 in the Office of Mental Health, in psychiatric

                 facilities, as a result of Kendra's Law.  But

                 we don't have it for people who leave prisons,

                 no.





                                                          1132



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Right.  So

                 that means, then, that they are much more

                 likely to return because they will not be able

                 to -- under the current status of our mental

                 health system, with that kind of break, they

                 can't easily access a continuum of care

                 after -- outside on parole.

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    No, I wouldn't

                 say -- that's not true, because in your county

                 or mine there are a number of facilities,

                 clinics and psychiatric facilities, to which a

                 person can be required to visit periodically,

                 continue their drug medication, if that's the

                 treatment that they're under, or follow-up

                 psychiatric care.  That's certainly available.

                 And they would be required to take advantage

                 of it.

                            If for some reason they stop by

                 their own determination, then obviously they'd

                 be subject to being brought back in.  Very

                 similar to what Kendra's Law requires outside

                 the criminal justice system.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Okay.  All

                 right.  Thank you, Senator Padavan.

                            Just briefly on the bill, Mr.





                                                          1133



                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery, on the bill.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    I have in

                 the past voted in opposition of Senator

                 Padavan's bill.  I really find this bill a

                 very interesting area for us to consider.

                            Certainly I would like to see much

                 more mental health services provided for

                 inmates who are mentally ill, and I think a

                 very large number -- in fact, the Corrections

                 Department is probably providing a very large

                 percentage of our -- providing not care, but

                 they have a large percentage of people who are

                 mentally ill.

                            So I would like to see something

                 done about that.  However, I am concerned that

                 when people currently come out of any

                 institution, including the corrections, there

                 really is no way for them to access care or

                 any other support.  And so it's very likely

                 that this population is certainly going to

                 fall right back into recidivism.

                            So we're not really helping to

                 resolve that issue.  And they will probably





                                                          1134



                 come back into the system after having

                 committed some infraction, some other crime,

                 because they will be destabilized, because

                 there won't be any support for them.

                            So I'm going to continue to oppose

                 the bill, although I certainly appreciate,

                 Senator, your attempt to make sure that we

                 provide services to people who are criminally

                 mentally ill.

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Mr. President,

                 if I may.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Padavan.

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Senator, I

                 respect your view.  But just to relieve some

                 of your discomfort, if you would read page 2,

                 the middle of the bill, there is specific

                 reference to that person we're talking about

                 being assigned to an outpatient facility to

                 which he would be directed.  So we are

                 marrying up that individual with a specific

                 facility in his community to ensure treatment.

                            Now, that may not be the broad

                 scope that you were talking about.  But as it

                 relates to this individual who would be





                                                          1135



                 covered by this law, should it become so,

                 there is a very specific tie-in between

                 release and treatment.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Thank you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Onorato.

                            SENATOR ONORATO:    Mr. President,

                 will Senator Padavan yield to a question?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Padavan, do you yield?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    Yes.

                            SENATOR ONORATO:    Senator

                 Padavan, under your bill, someone who is

                 convicted like that and is sentenced, and who

                 goes into the treatment program and is now

                 declared cured, or certainly in much better

                 condition, how does that affect his sentence?

                            Must he continue serving it,

                 depending -- what does he get, a

                 two-to-five-year sentence with the ability of

                 getting parole?  Does it affect his time

                 release when he goes into the program and is

                 assisted to the degree that they think he's -

                 he or she is fit for society again?

                            SENATOR PADAVAN:    The sentence is





                                                          1136



                 whatever the sentence is.

                            However, when the person comes up,

                 as you know they do, for parole at various

                 points in the sentence, obviously his state of

                 mental health is a prime factor for the Parole

                 Board to consider when they determine whether

                 early release, work release, or parole is

                 appropriate.

                            And then the other things that

                 Senator Montgomery and I were talking about

                 kick into place.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect on the 90th day.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 DeFrancisco, to explain his vote.

                            SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:    I vote no,

                 for the following reasons.

                            First of all, the line between not

                 guilty and guilty is the defendant was

                 suffering from a mental disease or defect and





                                                          1137



                 was guilty of a crime.  Now, that makes, to

                 me, literally no sense.  You are either guilty

                 of a crime or you're not guilty of a crime.

                 If you have the capacity to commit the crime

                 of murder, you're guilty of murder.  If you

                 don't have the capacity to commit a crime,

                 you're not guilty.

                            That's what criminal justice is all

                 about, setting a standard of liability.  And

                 we set a standard of what a mental disease or

                 defect is to determine whether that person is

                 capable of committing a crime.

                            There's no chance of a middle

                 ground, because it's -- if you're capable of

                 committing the murder, you should be guilty.

                 If you're not capable, by the law, you should

                 be not guilty.  I think that's much the same

                 as what Senator Paterson was saying.

                            Secondly, I disagree strenuously

                 with my learned colleague.  Having tried many

                 cases, criminal and civil, there is literally

                 no doubt in my mind that if a jury hears a

                 defendant saying the man is mentally ill but

                 he's not guilty at all, and you see the

                 evidence of a crime that's clear and you see





                                                          1138



                 the defendant conceding that the man is

                 mentally ill, there is literally no chance

                 that a person will be found not guilty,

                 because there's that middle ground that will

                 satisfy the common sense of most people, not

                 the legal-justification defense of mentally

                 ill.

                            So for those reasons, I am going to

                 vote no.  And I would request that Senator

                 Padavan look at those 19 states -- maybe I

                 will -- to see who is right, he or Senator

                 Paterson and me, as far as the results of

                 crimes, the conviction rate, and the

                 middle-ground conviction rate as to what

                 really happens in these cases, what juries

                 really do.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 DeFrancisco will be recorded in the negative.

                            Announce the results.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar Number 175 are

                 Senators Connor, DeFrancisco, Dollinger,

                 Lachman, Marchi, Markowitz, Meier, Mendez,

                 Montgomery, Onorato, Paterson, Sampson,

                 Schneiderman, Smith, and Stavisky.  Ayes, 39.





                                                          1139



                 Nays, 15.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 83, by Senator McGee, Senate Print 4314A, an

                 act to amend the Town Law, in relation to the

                 settlement of claims by certain towns.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 McGee, an explanation has been requested by

                 Senator Dollinger.

                            SENATOR McGEE:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.  Certainly.

                            This legislation was developed by

                 the Legislative Commission on Rural Resources.

                 The present and current law calls -- provides

                 that towns having a population of less than

                 200,000 -- and there are only six towns in the

                 state that have a population greater than

                 200,000 -- may settle a lawsuit or a claim

                 which exceeds $300 only with the approval of

                 the Supreme Court.

                            This bill would eliminate the

                 population and dollar restrictions, and it

                 would allow all towns to settle all lawsuits





                                                          1140



                 and claims against them without judicial

                 approval.  The requirement for judicial

                 approval is old and really very outdated, and

                 all the towns should have the flexibility to

                 settle claims and lawsuits without

                 restrictions.

                            Enactment of this legislation will

                 save towns the legal costs associated with

                 many applications to the court for approval

                 and remove these actions from crowded court

                 caseloads.

                            As you well know, that in some

                 cases, accidents with a vehicle owned by a

                 municipality, et cetera, et cetera, may very

                 well cost over $300 to replace a bumper or

                 replace a fender on a vehicle.

                            In this case, if we can go to -- if

                 the towns can go to -- just to take care of it

                 regularly rather than have to apply to the

                 Supreme Court, this clears the court docket

                 and is less expensive to the town.  It's a

                 cost-effective measure for the towns.

                            There it is.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger.





                                                          1141



                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Mr.

                 President, just to explain my vote.  Or on the

                 bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    You want

                 to speak on the bill?

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Just on the

                 bill, Mr. President.  I'll be real brief.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger, on the bill.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    I voted

                 against this last year.  I still think there

                 are instances in which some towns in New York

                 State need the requirement of applying to a

                 Supreme Court justice.  We do this in a number

                 of instances to provide an additional check on

                 the resolution of some of these claims.

                            I think especially in small

                 communities, there's a danger that these

                 claims could be adjudicated in a way that

                 would be either favorable or unfavorable to

                 the town in exchange for other considerations.

                 In the small-town world of New York, I think

                 having a state Supreme Court judge in some

                 cases review these may have some value.

                            So rather than adopt a carte





                                                          1142



                 blanche for all towns, I would favor that some

                 certain small towns which may not have the

                 assistance of a full-time counsel still be

                 required to engage in some review by the court

                 process.  I think it will only give another

                 way to try to prevent what could be the

                 temptation for misuse of public money.

                            And so I'll vote against it again,

                 and wish the sponsor well with the other 57

                 votes on her side.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 53.  Nays,

                 1.  Senator Dollinger recorded in the

                 negative.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 350, by Senator Kuhl, Senate Print 6681, an

                 act to amend the Education Law and the Penal





                                                          1143



                 Law, in relation to violent and disruptive

                 incidents on school grounds.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl, an explanation has been requested by

                 Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            This is a bill that is aimed at

                 stilling the violence in our schools and also

                 protecting the people that are employed there.

                            There are two specific provisions

                 of the bill, one which would create what we

                 call a uniform violent incident reporting

                 system, which would call for the Commissioner

                 of Education to set up a system whereby all of

                 the school boards and schools across the state

                 report incidents of violence, and that there's

                 an annual report.

                            The second portion of the bill

                 would call for setting a penalty for assaults

                 on employees of school districts, to become

                 Class D felonies.

                            That, in essence, is the nature of

                 what the bill is all about.





                                                          1144



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Would the

                 sponsor yield to one question, please?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl, do you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I'd be happy to.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    I note,

                 Senator, in reading this bill that it refers

                 to the types of violent and disruptive

                 incidents by level of offense occurring in the

                 schools.  Is there some other provision in the

                 Education Law that describes what you mean by

                 disruptive events, disruptive incidents, and

                 what the level of offense is?

                            I'm referring specifically, Senator

                 Kuhl, to lines 11 through 14 on the -- in

                 Section 2 on the first page of the bill.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I don't believe

                 there's anything in the Education Law right

                 now, Senator.

                            But our intent here is to have the

                 Commissioner kind of set up classifications of





                                                          1145



                 incidents so that he can categorize the types

                 of incidents that are occurring in schools so

                 we'll have a report so that we know whether or

                 not next year a student in, say, Brighton High

                 School was spitting on a teacher or sassing a

                 teacher back or actually throwing spitballs at

                 a teacher or swearing at a teacher or

                 assaulting a teacher or hitting a teacher over

                 the head with an umbrella or whatever other

                 activity it might be.

                            And I think the report would kind

                 of be broken down by the Commissioner into

                 that type of reporting system that would allow

                 us to get a better handle on all of the

                 various types of incidences that are occurring

                 in the schools.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Okay.  And

                 again, through you, Mr. President, if Senator

                 Kuhl would continue to yield.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I'd be happy to.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    I understand





                                                          1146



                 this bill is intended to have a broad sweep.

                 My question is with respect to lines 15

                 through 17, is it the actions -- all other

                 forms of discipline administered and the

                 grounds for such discipline?  That would

                 include, as they did in my Jesuit high school,

                 sending you off to jug for the afternoon if

                 you were, you know, wrestling with someone out

                 in the schoolyard?  Is that what that means?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I'm just reading

                 the language, Senator.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    My only

                 concern here, Senator, the reason why I've

                 asked both the question about level of offense

                 and the question about the type of discipline,

                 is I understand -- and I'm going to support

                 this bill, because I think that the need to

                 broaden the information basis about what's

                 going on in our schools about the degree of

                 disruptive or violent behavior, I think as

                 we've talked about a lot here -- but I agree

                 with you, and I'm not so sure we've got a good

                 handle on how much is going on out there.

                            My question is, in your attempt to

                 be so broad, are you so broad as to require an





                                                          1147



                 enormous amount of recordkeeping on every

                 student who's put in detention in the public

                 schools in this state or gets after-class

                 suspension or is tossed out of class and sent

                 to the principal's office for a little

                 discussion with the guidance counselor?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Well, Senator, let

                 me be more specific to you.  While I

                 appreciate your attention to the first page of

                 the bill, perhaps the second page of the bill

                 is the major emphasis of what we're doing

                 here.

                            Just so that you know, during the

                 last decade, 1990 through the year 1999,

                 14,000 teachers and school staff members were

                 assaulted in the schools in this state.  And

                 many of them were victims that it caused them

                 to be hospitalized and loss from their jobs.

                            And the unfortunate thing is that

                 this trend of violence in our schools is

                 increasing, and to the point that there was a

                 recent editorial in the New York Post

                 reporting on the situation in the New York

                 City school systems, where it appears as

                 though now we have an attack a day on a





                                                          1148



                 teacher.

                            And let me just kind of briefly

                 talk about that, just so that you know the

                 types of things that are happening.  Okay, on

                 February 14th, Valentine's Day, love day,

                 okay, a male head-butted a female teacher.

                 She had to go be personally looked at.  The

                 next day, a parent punched a teacher, and she

                 was treated by a physician.  Go to the next

                 day.  A student slammed a teacher into the

                 wall.  Go to the next day, February 15th,

                 okay, another teacher -- this is at the

                 elementary level, repeatedly kicked and

                 punched a teacher.  And it goes on and on and

                 on and on.

                            The point is, is that there are two

                 parts of this bill.  One part is that there

                 are assaults, potentially deadly assaults

                 being put upon the employees in the school

                 district which have to come to an immediate

                 halt.  Have to come to an immediate halt.

                 There's no room in our schools today for

                 disruptive students to be assaulting,

                 physically, teachers or other employees of the

                 schools.





                                                          1149



                            But as a follow-up, we also need to

                 know the other kinds of instances that are

                 occurring so that we can treat the issue.  We

                 know that we can start to create a bigger

                 deterrent by increasing the penalty for an

                 assault on a school employee from a Class A

                 misdemeanor to a Class D felony, which is

                 currently, right now, the kind of protection

                 that we provide to policemen and firemen in

                 the line of duty.  Why should a teacher be any

                 more susceptible to attacks, for lack of a

                 deterrent, than a fireman or a policeman?  I

                 don't think so.

                            But our point is, in response -

                 and I know it's a long response to your

                 question -- is that to get the broad scope of

                 where we are, we need to know not only the

                 assaults that are reported in papers that we

                 see that really are unacceptable, we need to

                 know everything that's going on.  So that when

                 we get to -- eventually, if the Assembly will

                 come to the table and talk about a

                 comprehensive school violence bill, we will be

                 able to address the code of conduct situation

                 and the appropriate penalties that should be





                                                          1150



                 handed out in relation to that.

                            So that is why you'll see the

                 language in our bill that will call for those

                 incidents, so we know, we have a paper trail.

                 And it will start, and I would assume that

                 within the first year we'll have a good idea

                 as to how we deal with that disruptive

                 conduct.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.  On the bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger, on the bill.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Senator Kuhl,

                 like the good lawyer that he is, does what a

                 good lawyer does when someone sits at a trial

                 and says, I want to focus on the little tiny

                 language in one portion of this bill because I

                 think it may be too broad.

                            I think when we're looking for

                 disruptive behaviors and the definition of

                 that, we may sweep a whole bunch of student

                 offenses that don't rise to the level which I

                 think Senator Kuhl wants to get at, which is,

                 in essence, criminal activity that happens in

                 our schools.





                                                          1151



                            And Senator Kuhl, I think

                 rightfully so -- I guess I sort of threw him

                 what I thought was a curve ball, but he has

                 tagged it and sent it out of the park when he

                 talks about the head-butting of teachers, the

                 assault by parents of teachers.  All of these

                 are criminal activity in our schools that I

                 agree with Senator Kuhl, one, we should make

                 it a greater penalty to emphasize our

                 disapproval and distaste for it, and,

                 secondly, we should go about gathering the

                 data to figure out the nature of this problem.

                            Senator Kuhl, I'm going to vote in

                 favor of this bill.  I would suggest you look

                 at that language both with respect to the

                 definition of offenses and what constitutes

                 disruptive behavior and look at the

                 requirement that you're going to put on these

                 schools to report the actions that they take.

                 My fear is that this bill may be so broad as

                 to include all the detentions, all the minor

                 penalties for student misconduct in the

                 schools.

                            And that relates to the final

                 question.  While I'm going to support this





                                                          1152



                 bill, Senator, I think it is a tad misleading,

                 just a little, tiny bit, to say that the

                 fiscal implication of this bill is

                 undetermined.  The fiscal implication of this

                 bill is that someone is going to spend an

                 enormous amount of time in our public schools

                 filling out the reports necessary to comply

                 with the statute.

                            And while I agree with you we've

                 got to be able to get our hands on that data

                 to figure out what's going on in our schools

                 and figure out whether we in this chamber need

                 to do something to either change the penalties

                 or provide additional resources for metal

                 detectors or other devices in our schools in

                 order to be able to convey a clear message

                 that school violence is unacceptable, I do

                 think that this bill will have a very

                 significant administrative cost -- not only

                 for the Commissioner of Education, who's got

                 to come up with the rules and regs, which I

                 think will be an enormously complicated task,

                 but for every school district in this state

                 that's going to have to sit down and figure

                 out how are we going to provide all that





                                                          1153



                 information for all the student infractions.

                            Senator Kuhl, I think this is a

                 good idea.  I agree with both parts of it.  I

                 think it needs a little work on the drafting

                 to tighten it up.  And I think, for the

                 purposes of having a fair and honest debate

                 about this bill if it someday comes back to

                 us, we ought to at least come up with an

                 estimate of what the fiscal implication would

                 be -- not necessarily just to the State of New

                 York, but the cost to every school district in

                 this state.  It will be sizable, I believe.

                            But in my judgment -- and this is

                 where I agree with you, Senator Kuhl -- it

                 will be worth it, because it will give us the

                 data to figure out how to send an even

                 stronger message that this type of behavior is

                 not permitted in our public schools.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Mont -- Senator Pat -- oh, I'm sorry.  Senator

                 Paterson is down.

                            Senator Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Oh, yes, Mr.

                 President, I would like to ask the sponsor a

                 couple of questions.





                                                          1154



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl, do you yield to a question from Senator

                 Montgomery?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Senator

                 Kuhl, I was trying to determine what is the

                 difference in your legislation, essentially,

                 and the bill that we did last week that was

                 sponsored by Senator Bruno, which seemed to

                 have the same intent.  Or is yours different?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Thank you for

                 indulging me, Senator.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Sure.  No

                 problem.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I just needed to

                 refresh my memory as to what the bill that

                 Senator Bruno passed last week was.

                            His bill related to essentially, if

                 you will, elevating the severity of a felony.

                 This bill deals with elevating the severity of

                 a misdemeanor.  Different categories of

                 crimes.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Okay.  So -





                                                          1155



                            SENATOR KUHL:    Essentially, they

                 dealt with crimes committed on school grounds,

                 which is Senator Bruno's bill.

                            Ours deals with assaults on school

                 employees that are Class A misdemeanors.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Okay.  So

                 Senator Bruno's bill would raise the penalty

                 for any crime committed, and yours deals

                 specifically with -

                            SENATOR KUHL:    No.  No.  No,

                 Senator.  Not for any crime.  It only dealt

                 with felonies.

                            If it was a Class D felony, it

                 would elevate it to a Class C felony.  If it

                 was a Class E felony, it would elevate it to a

                 Class D felony.  If it was a Class B felony,

                 it would elevate it to a Class A felony,

                 because it happened on school grounds.

                            Ours deals specifically with

                 protecting school employees -- teachers,

                 custodians, administrators -- who were

                 assaulted, and the crime is a Class A

                 misdemeanor.  It elevates that penalty from a

                 Class A misdemeanor -- which, as you know, is

                 a crime for which one can be sentenced to up





                                                          1156



                 to a year in a local place of incarceration,

                 whether it's a county jail or whatever -- to a

                 Class D felony, which would be a maximum

                 penalty of up to seven years in prison.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Okay.  Class

                 D felony, up to seven years in prison.

                            Senator Kuhl, can I just ask you -

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Wait a

                 minute.  Do you want Senator Kuhl to continue

                 to yield?

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I'd be happy to.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Thank you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Senator

                 Kuhl, I would just like to know, what do we do

                 with someone who is, say, 10, 11, 12, a

                 fifth-grader, a sixth-grader, a fourth-grader,

                 that is charged with -- under your

                 legislation, with throwing spitballs at the

                 teacher?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Well, spitballs





                                                          1157



                 wouldn't come under the form of an assault, I

                 don't believe.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    I thought I

                 heard you refer to spitballs.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Well, I did refer

                 to spitballs, but I referred to spitballs as

                 part of the initial part of the bill, which

                 calls for reporting incidents of violence or

                 disruptive behavior.

                            That certainly would be disruptive

                 behavior.  I think you and I could probably

                 agree to that, that throwing spitballs at a

                 teacher or another student would be disruptive

                 behavior.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Sure, yes.

                 I'm sure a lot of us in here have done that.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Senator Smith is

                 nodding that she was disruptive at one time

                 during her high school -- no, I -- anyway,

                 the -- that's not -- that would not be here.

                            But I can't speak to that, and the

                 bill doesn't speak to that.  Because there are

                 several different procedures that a young

                 person could be handled as.  It could be as a

                 juvenile delinquent, in which case the





                                                          1158



                 severity of the crime in this particular case

                 wouldn't make any difference, because the

                 ultimate penalty would be some sort of reform

                 school.  It could mean that if the person was

                 treated as an adult, under some circumstances

                 that might mean a difference in severity of

                 the crime.

                            So it's impossible at this point,

                 without some sort of a factual scenario, and

                 knowing what the prosecutor in that particular

                 case would do, as to how this would impact.

                 All this simply does is raise the severity of

                 the crime or assault, which is a Class A

                 misdemeanor now, to be typed as a Class D

                 felony.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Now, a

                 couple of sessions back we had -- we

                 considered, in this legislative chamber, a

                 bill that essentially, under certain

                 circumstances -- I'm not sure if it was

                 actually a Class D felony, but it was under

                 certain circumstances a juvenile as young as

                 12 would be tried as an adult.

                            And so my question to you is that

                 based on this legislation, and based on the





                                                          1159



                 bill that we passed last week that was

                 sponsored by Senator Bruno where automatically

                 any infraction on school grounds would be

                 increased to the next degree -

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Again, that's only

                 as it relates to felonies.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    So in other

                 words -- exactly.  Well, his relates to

                 felonies.

                            So under his bill and under yours,

                 if it essentially becomes a felony, even

                 though it's a misdemeanor, is it your -- do

                 you maintain the philosophical position that

                 those 12-year-olds should be tried as adults?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I don't think,

                 Senator -

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Vis-a-vis

                 the legislation that we considered, the

                 Juvenile Reform Act legislation that we

                 considered in this house that did pass.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I don't think that

                 has anything to do with what we're doing here,

                 Senator.  I think -

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    So in other

                 words, this doesn't become part of the





                                                          1160



                 Juvenile Reform Act legislation?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I don't see how.

                 I don't see how.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Okay.  All

                 right.

                            Just one last question, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    I'll be happy to.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Senator yields.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Okay.

                 Senator Kuhl, we've talked about unfunded

                 mandates.  And your memo, where it says

                 "fiscal implications," says that's

                 undetermined.  So my assumption is that none

                 of the school districts have yet either been

                 asked or thought about what this might cost,

                 and so we don't know at this point.

                            But does this not become one

                 additional report that has to be kept at the

                 level of the school, sent up to the, I'm

                 assuming, the district, and from there to the

                 Education Commissioner and then the Education





                                                          1161



                 Commissioner has to give us one more ream of

                 paper to read?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Senator, there's

                 no question that this bill, if passed -- and I

                 believe it will pass today -- would require a

                 new report that's not currently being filed.

                            It's like last year, you may

                 recall, as part of the budget process, we also

                 required school districts to file another new

                 report that previously wasn't required, and

                 that related to transportation costs relative

                 to summer schools.

                            Well, as you know, there is

                 currently an implementation of a higher

                 Regents standard for quality education being

                 implemented by our Regents.  What that is

                 requiring is many students to spend time,

                 after their normal school curriculum, to

                 concentrate on issues that they haven't been

                 successfully meeting.

                            Also part of that is a

                 concentration by students now spending -- and

                 I think we've heard it, I don't remember if -

                 I think it was just a couple of days ago on

                 the floor here, or in a committee meeting, it





                                                          1162



                 may have been, where there are going to be as

                 many as 300,000 students attending summer

                 school in the city of New York this year.

                            Well, that's a huge number of

                 students.  But if this state is going to be

                 able to provide a service which is going to be

                 beneficial to those districts in the form of

                 dollars to support the transportation to and

                 from those summer schools, then we need to

                 know the statistics.

                            The same is true here, that we have

                 violence in the schools.  I just cited that

                 there have been articles in the New York Post

                 in the last week as to the outrageousness of

                 the violence in the schools.  Well, to deal

                 with that, we have to know the completeness of

                 that.  We have to know whether there are

                 assaults on teachers and that sort of thing.

                            So while at this time there may be

                 the requirement of an additional report, that

                 is information we need so that we can say,

                 Okay, fine, we need to provide metal detectors

                 for those schools.  Which we've tried to do in

                 this conference.  We passed a bill here that

                 provided that kind of support.  We need to





                                                          1163



                 know what is out there so that we can meet the

                 need.

                            Any kind of additional fiscal

                 responsibility that this bill creates is so

                 minimal in the form of just requiring

                 additional reports, or reports that they're

                 already required to keep.  It's insignificant

                 to the cost that is really undermining the

                 quality of education, if you want to think

                 about it in these terms, Senator.

                            In fact, if in fact these

                 disruptions, these assaults are undermining

                 the quality of education so these students

                 aren't meeting the standards, well, that

                 perhaps is a cost that is not necessary.

                 Those people have to spend additional time to

                 educate the students.  Where if the classes

                 were under control and there was no

                 disruption, that's maybe a savings.

                            And so that's why we said the cost

                 is undetermined.  Because if we had no

                 violence in our schools, there would be not

                 the cost of trying to remediate the students

                 who are not getting a proper education because

                 of the disruptiveness.  So one little form





                                                          1164



                 could really save the school districts

                 thousands of dollars or millions of dollars in

                 this state.

                            So you can look at it a number of

                 ways.  But it's in one of those issues that

                 it's really undetermined.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Okay.  Thank

                 you, Senator Kuhl, for that explanation.

                            Briefly, on the bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery, on the bill.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Mr.

                 President, I'm certainly, obviously, going to

                 vote against this legislation.

                            And I just want to remind my

                 colleagues that while I don't agree with this

                 aspect of the Governor's budget, he has said

                 in his own budget, he has proposed that we

                 pass a budget which includes language that

                 restricts the Board of Regents from making any

                 regulations that would be considered a new

                 mandate unless they fund it.

                            Now, if the Governor is going to

                 require that the Regents fund any mandate -

                 and the Regents is the highest policy-making





                                                          1165



                 body for the education of all children in our

                 state -- then it seems to me that we, as the

                 Legislature, should at least, since we are the

                 ones who actually do the budget, it seems to

                 me that that law or that rule should pertain

                 to us, certainly more so than the Board of

                 Regents.

                            But it seems to me that every week

                 we do another bill that puts a mandate on the

                 local -- the localities, the local school

                 districts, for them to spend more money, and

                 we don't attach any money to it.

                            Now, some years ago, Mr. President,

                 I had a bill, which did pass both houses and

                 was signed into law, which would mandate that

                 the Office of Mental Health do a study of

                 children, the mental health needs of young

                 people in our state, both in and out of

                 school, both in and out of the OMH itself.

                 Which would have included schools and school

                 districts throughout the state.  But my bill

                 was only to go into effect if there was

                 funding attached to it.

                            It's still a viable situation, a

                 viable proposition.  I think it's still





                                                          1166



                 needed.  But certainly until the Legislature

                 funds it, OMH is not required to do it.

                            I have been a strong advocate for

                 school-based health-clinic programs for

                 schools throughout our state, and I have also

                 been an advocate for mental health services to

                 be a part of those school-based health

                 clinics.  I am a very strong advocate of

                 providing crisis-intervention services,

                 support services, guidance counseling, all of

                 the possible additional resources that help

                 schools identify and work with difficult young

                 people.  I think that's appropriate, I think

                 we should be doing that, and I hope that

                 someday we will get to that.

                            But it seems to me that what we

                 have been doing in the last few months and

                 weeks, as we convene each week in this

                 Legislature, is that we look for ways of

                 arresting children, sentencing them, figuring

                 out ways to get them into the criminal justice

                 system.

                            Now, I have to ask myself and my

                 colleagues, why are we taking this approach

                 and what are we really aiming to do?  It's





                                                          1167



                 certainly not, not to help create an

                 environment of safety and learning in the

                 schools and on the school grounds.  So I'm

                 going to oppose this.

                            And, lastly, I just want to

                 reiterate my position.  And that is whatever

                 we intend this to be, whatever we say about

                 whether or not it's going to make teachers

                 safer or school grounds safer or children more

                 able to learn, or whatever we talk about,

                 ultimately it is going to -- the results of

                 this legislation is going to fall most

                 heavily, as every punitive measure that we

                 have that already exists, will fall the most

                 heavily on the children in my district and

                 other districts like mine.

                            So I cannot possibly support this.

                 And I just must remind my colleagues that we

                 already have a situation where the largest

                 percent of young people who are suspended from

                 schools with very long suspension sentences,

                 and those young people who are in special ed

                 classes without any particular physiological

                 designation, are young people of color;

                 specifically, young African-American males.





                                                          1168



                            So I cannot vote for this, because

                 I see this as one more attempt to get into the

                 net of the criminal justice system young

                 people of color.  So I'm voting no on this,

                 Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Marcellino.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.

                            I rise once again to bring to the

                 attention of my colleagues the problems that

                 we face in recruiting staff to our school

                 systems.  I hear Senator Montgomery's

                 concerns, and we've heard them before.  She's

                 said them on many bills and many issues

                 similar to this.  She's said them previously,

                 the same complaints and the same responses.

                            But I see no alternatives.  The

                 methodology she talks about, about teaching

                 and taking kids who have problems and giving

                 them counseling, that's been done.  It's being

                 done.  It was done when I was teaching in the

                 school system in the city of New York.  We had

                 counselors, we had guidance counselors, we had

                 program after program after program, federally





                                                          1169



                 funded, state funded, city funded -- you name

                 it, it was funded.  Guidance counselor after

                 guidance counselor, psychiatrist after

                 psychiatrist dealing with youngsters.  We had

                 all kinds of programs.

                            There were many high schools in the

                 city where the guidance counselors had to walk

                 through the metal detectors that the kids were

                 involved with, and these schools had more

                 guidance staff than anybody else in the city,

                 yet metal detectors had to be put in high

                 schools.  And elementary schools.  And middle

                 schools.  And junior high schools.

                            How can you possibly teach, how can

                 you possibly educate anyone when you have to

                 walk through a metal detector to get in there,

                 into a school?  How can you attract staff to

                 teach when they are threatened, when parents

                 will punch them in the face, when students

                 will head-butt them -- in an elementary

                 school -- throw them down stairs, disrupt

                 classrooms?

                            What does that teacher do?  Send

                 them out of the classroom to a guidance

                 counselor to talk to them for the day?  Then





                                                          1170



                 they get them back the next day.  What do you

                 do with a kid?  What do you do with a child

                 that is absolutely disruptive?

                            When I was the dean of students in

                 my high school, 2 percent of the kids -- we

                 did an analysis of that school, and it was a

                 mixed school.  The percentage of minority -

                 Hispanic, black, African-American, Italian,

                 Irish, you name it -- was about 50 percent

                 when I was teaching there, minority to

                 nonminority, if you will.  Two percent of the

                 students could disrupt that school on any

                 given day if they chose to.  That was the

                 population that we were trying to address.

                            We spent more time dealing with

                 that 2 percent than we did with the other

                 98 percent who were there to get an education

                 but whose classrooms were routinely being

                 disrupted by 2 percent, in many, many ways.

                            A teacher has 40 minutes in which

                 to a make a lesson work or not work.  One

                 child, one child who got up on the wrong side

                 of the bed, or just for the hell of it, can

                 destroy that lesson and set that classroom

                 back weeks when they decide to misbehave.





                                                          1171



                            I'm not saying that one child on

                 that one day gets sent to Alcatraz and never

                 comes off the rock.  That's not what we're

                 looking for.  But you have to be able to take

                 some control of your schools.

                            In the city of New York, you have

                 thousands, tens of thousands of uncertified

                 teachers teaching.  Why?  Because you can't

                 get certified teachers.  Because you can't

                 attract them to the schools.  They won't go

                 there.  Why?  Because of the reputation, in

                 many cases, of the disruptive school districts

                 where teachers are not given support, where

                 staff is not given support.

                            Now, that's not nice to say, but

                 it's reality.  And until that's addressed,

                 you'll never get it.  Pay is a factor, there's

                 no doubt about it.  Nobody goes into education

                 to make a million dollars.  We all know that.

                 You're not going to get, you know, somebody

                 going into schools because they want to make a

                 million or become a millionaire.  That's not

                 what they're there for.  There's a motivation.

                 But you're going to drive them out if they

                 can't do what they go there for.





                                                          1172



                            If they go there to teach, with all

                 the best of intentions, and they're assaulted

                 or their classes are disrupted or they can't

                 get to the kids they want to get to, if they

                 can't teach what they want to teach because of

                 violence in the schools or disruption in the

                 schools or breakdowns in the schools or fire

                 alarm bells being rung daily, hourly, period

                 by period -- if that's continuously happening,

                 no education will happen.  That teacher will

                 leave the system and never return and

                 bad-mouth it forever amber.  And that ends it.

                            And you've got to take it.  You

                 can't have it both ways.  Yes, we should do as

                 much prevention programs as possible.  Yes, we

                 should fund as many outreach programs as

                 possible.  And to address the factor of the

                 unfairness in the way some rules are applied

                 to certain members of our society, I agree

                 with you, that should be addressed.

                            I think Senator Kuhl's bill

                 addresses that by taking count.  By getting

                 the statistics, you prove your point.  And

                 someone might be able to address it in reality

                 when you in fact see it, no pun intended, in





                                                          1173



                 black and white, when the numbers don't lie.

                 But you have to have the records and you have

                 to have the statistics and you have to have

                 the numbers.  You can't hold schools to

                 standards unless you know what you're doing.

                            Here we're saying disruption we're

                 not going to address because, well, we don't

                 want to hurt anybody's feelings.  But we don't

                 worry about the teacher.  That teacher can get

                 head-butted, that teacher can get punched,

                 that custodian could get hit, can be

                 assaulted, the aide can be tossed down a

                 flight of stairs.

                            And you can't have that.  You can't

                 have it both ways.  We have to address

                 violence.  Violent people, regardless of who

                 they are, must be stopped.

                            And if we don't, we delegate those

                 schools and we relegate the students involved

                 with those schools to no education whatsoever.

                 And then all the good standards and all the

                 good comments that we make here will be for

                 nothing if we do not address the day-to-day

                 living conditions of teachers, staff members

                 in schools.





                                                          1174



                            If we don't protect them and if we

                 don't keep them safe and if we don't give them

                 what they need to work, then we lose them.  We

                 lose them.  They'll go to other states where

                 it's safer, or they'll go to those districts

                 where it is easier to do.  And no amount of

                 incentives, no amount of programs is going to

                 get them back.

                            And no amount of pay will get them

                 back.  You can just pay someone so much, but

                 no one's going to go anywhere where they feel

                 threatened.  If they feel their life is

                 threatened, it's not going to happen.  If I

                 can't park my car in a radius near the school

                 and not have it vandalized, it's not going to

                 happen.  I'm not going to go there.

                            And that's typical.  And that's why

                 many districts in the city, some districts on

                 Long Island, and districts in other areas of

                 the state are having problems.  Because you

                 can't teach when there's chaos in the system.

                 And in some systems, I'm sorry to say, there

                 is chaos.  And until we address that, until we

                 recognize it honestly, we're going nowhere.

                            I don't disagree with you, Senator.





                                                          1175



                 We must do the programs you suggest.  We must

                 have more of those outreach.  I'm not

                 suggesting in any way, shape, or form by

                 comments I'm making that they are not

                 worthwhile and should not be tried.  They

                 should and they must be funded.  But we've got

                 to deal with that youngster who, even after

                 the outreach is made and even after the

                 programs are tried, still will not function.

                 That has to be addressed.

                            So I say to you we must support

                 this bill.  I voted for Senator Bruno's bill

                 for the same reason.  I'm going to support

                 this bill gladly, because it's time we took a

                 hard stand.  You can't say you want education

                 and then not be willing to do what has to be

                 done to give people a safe place to provide

                 that service for us.

                            I'll vote aye on this bill when it

                 comes up.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    If Senator

                 Kuhl would just yield for one final question.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator





                                                          1176



                 Kuhl, do you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you.

                            Senator, I was talking a little

                 earlier with Senator Duane, and we were

                 wondering together, so I thought I would ask

                 you, in this research that's going to be

                 compiled would the issue of hate crimes, even

                 though it would be a standard that might

                 differ in interpretation from one area to

                 another, do you think that would be important

                 to include that as a category, since it's

                 probably something that would probably begin

                 at young ages, or at least the notion to

                 manifest one's bias toward other people in the

                 area of violence?

                            Did you consider that, and -

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Senator, there -

                 that is a possibility.

                            But feeling that the Commissioner

                 of Education probably knows what goes on in

                 the schools better than you or I do, or even

                 Senator Marcellino, we wrote the language such





                                                          1177



                 that the Commissioner would prescribe a form

                 and that he would set out the following

                 information:  the number of and types of

                 violent and disruptive incidents, by level of

                 offense, occurring in the schools.  That's

                 really kind of the only designation as to what

                 is there.

                            So if it was perceived by the

                 Commissioner that he thought that that was

                 important, fine, he would include it.  But we

                 haven't specified that that be included.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you,

                 Senator.

                            On the bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson, on the bill.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    If one of the

                 contingents was that, as Senator Bruno said

                 that last week right here in this chamber,

                 that he would pass the hate crimes if we

                 didn't specify the categories, I couldn't be

                 more strongly opposed to that.

                            However, for the purpose of





                                                          1178



                 conducting research, I would strongly urge

                 that the Commissioner, who will perhaps be

                 given this opportunity now through Senator

                 Kuhl's bill, take that opportunity.  Because

                 in that sense, the Commissioner can study it

                 any way he wants to.

                            And I think it would actually

                 provide some very interesting information

                 which could influence some legislation that we

                 need to pass on the hate crimes bill itself.

                 And we need to do that as soon as possible.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.  If the sponsor would yield for

                 a question.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl, do you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you.

                 Through you, Mr. President.

                            Would the violent incident as





                                                          1179



                 defined in this bill, or for the purpose of

                 this bill, would that include possession of a

                 firearm?  That's not a violent incident per

                 se, but it's something that certainly, I

                 think, should be reported on in a system like

                 this if a kid brings a gun to school.

                            Is that something that could be

                 included within this legislation?

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Very definitely,

                 Senator.  It does talk about disruptive

                 incidences too, so I think that it would be

                 included in that, certainly.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you.

                            Mr. President, on the bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Schneiderman, on the bill.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    I

                 appreciate the thoughtfulness and the good

                 intent behind this.  I appreciate the comments

                 of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle.

                            And I do sense that we have -

                 there is a strong bipartisan desire to do

                 something about the problems that Senator

                 Marcellino spoke of, that Senator Montgomery

                 and others have spoken of.





                                                          1180



                            We have to do something about the

                 public schools in this state.  It's our life.

                 It's our future.  The best investment you can

                 make in preventing crime is fixing the

                 schools.  The best investment you can make in

                 our economic development is fixing the

                 schools.

                            However, I think that in one area

                 when we're talking about violence we really do

                 have to take responsibility in this house for

                 the fact that every year in the Assembly, they

                 pass bills to keep guns out of the hands of

                 children -- child access prevention bills and

                 trigger lock bills -- and we don't.

                            And I think if we're really going

                 to be serious about this effort, especially in

                 light of recent incidents in the last year of

                 kids bringing guns to school, this year, in

                 addition to this bill, we really do have to

                 pass some serious laws to get guns out of

                 children's hands.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Duane.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you very





                                                          1181



                 much, Mr. President.  I'd like to speak on the

                 bill, if I may.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Duane, on the bill.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you very

                 much.

                            I believe that the reporting, which

                 is a very -- the majority segment of this

                 legislation, is very important.  I'm a staunch

                 advocate of reporting.  I think we need it for

                 criminal acts and violent acts in the schools,

                 and I think we need to have it for bias and

                 hate crimes and have a way to report them on a

                 statewide basis.

                            Soon you will all be able to see

                 the "Dignity for All Students Act" which I'm

                 planning on introducing into this body, which

                 also will have reporting.  But it's also

                 combined with an action plan to make our

                 schools safer.  And I think that that is what

                 is missing here.

                            Reporting, as I say, is all well

                 and good, but I don't think that we should

                 only focus on how it is that we can punish

                 students.  I think we also have to work on the





                                                          1182



                 prevention side of the issue as well.

                            I also, though I respect Senator

                 Marcellino's comments and his comment about,

                 well, you know, what do we expect, that

                 they'll go to a guidance counselor -- well, I

                 might be willing to accept that.  But in New

                 York City schools, there aren't even enough

                 guidance counselors to go around.  Many of the

                 students in New York City schools are unable

                 to get an appointment with a guidance

                 counselor because they just are -- there are

                 not enough guidance counselors in the schools

                 for the demand that students have.

                            And also it's well and good to say,

                 well, we can only pay so much for teachers to

                 keep them here.  But in New York City, we

                 don't pay them so much.  We pay them much less

                 than so much.  And I do think that that's

                 something else we have to look at when we talk

                 about how it is that we not only attract

                 teachers but keep them in the schools.

                            So I think we have to look at this

                 in a much broader way.  Yes, reporting.  Yes,

                 seeing what students are the most disruptive

                 and potentially violent.  But also looking





                                                          1183



                 towards the prevention of acts which endanger

                 teachers and students in the school.

                            I'm looking forward to a time when

                 we can see more comprehensive legislation.

                 But until that time, I'm going to have to vote

                 no on this legislation.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect July 1.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl, to explain his vote.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    To explain my

                 vote.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl.

                            SENATOR KUHL:    Yes, Mr. Speaker.

                            Senator Montgomery raised the issue

                 about civility in our schools, I think, and

                 that sort of thing.  And I just wanted to let

                 the members know that those people who really

                 are on the front line are the teachers.  And

                 that one of their major organizations of

                 representatives, the New York State United





                                                          1184



                 Teachers, totally support this bill.

                            And I just would like to read from

                 a portion of their statement of support.  It

                 says:  "The New York State United Teachers

                 strongly supports Senate 6681" -- which is

                 this bill -- "which would establish a

                 statewide uniform violent incident reporting

                 system and raises the penalty for assaults on

                 school employees while on school grounds.

                            "For years, NYSUT has proposed and

                 lobbied for comprehensive safe school

                 legislation.  Ideally, such legislation would

                 include the enforcement of school codes of

                 conduct, authority for educators to remove

                 disruptive students from the classroom, and

                 protection of teachers from harassment and

                 assaults.

                            "Unfortunately, we'll all agree

                 that though such legislation is critical to

                 restoring civility and order to our schools,

                 nothing has been accomplished.  In the

                 meantime, discipline, civility, and order

                 continue to disintegrate in our schools, and

                 the danger to our teachers is at an all-time

                 high.





                                                          1185



                            "During the last school year, there

                 has been a 20 percent increase in assaults on

                 teachers in New York City.  Nine teachers have

                 been attacked in the first six weeks of this

                 year.  These are intolerable numbers.  There

                 can no longer be a question that it is time to

                 put aside party differences and pass Senate

                 6681, which could go a long way toward

                 protecting teachers as they perform their

                 jobs.

                            "NYSUT urges all of you to pass

                 Senate 6681 and make this the first step

                 toward restoring an atmosphere of respect and

                 civility in our schools by passage of a

                 comprehensive school safety legislation."

                            I vote aye, Mr. Speaker.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Kuhl, you will be recorded in the affirmative.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Mr.

                 President, I would like to explain my vote.

                 Is that possible?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Just

                 to -- we're going to let you do that, but we

                 haven't called the roll yet.  So we'll do that

                 in proper order, and then we'll -- it's the





                                                          1186



                 chair's mistake.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    I'm sorry.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    No, not

                 necessary to apologize.  My mistake.

                            Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery, to explain her vote.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, to

                 explain my vote.

                            I certainly understand the position

                 that NYSUT is taking, and it won't be the

                 first time that I'm voting in opposition to or

                 taking a position opposite to NYSUT.

                            But I want to reiterate, Mr.

                 President, very quickly, I am not opposed to

                 the safety of teachers.  I certainly support

                 any measure that would improve the environment

                 within schools.  But I also understand that we

                 have to be proactive, especially as it relates

                 to what we do for young people in our state.

                            And this bill, in my estimation -

                 I'm not opposed to the reporting, but I do

                 think that if we're going to require this

                 level of recordkeeping, we should pay for it.





                                                          1187



                 That's number one.

                            And, number two, when we are

                 talking about going onto school grounds, going

                 into schools and making arrests, charging 10-,

                 11-, and 12-year-olds with felonies because of

                 some infraction or other, we have to be very

                 careful, I believe, because we are going down

                 the slippery slope of having these young

                 children being incarcerated, building up

                 criminal records, before they are even able to

                 build some level of self-esteem and to

                 understand essentially, in some instances,

                 what is the appropriate behavior.

                            And we have not put into our

                 schools people who are there specifically to

                 be crisis-intervention agents for young people

                 who are in trouble.  And we have not put in

                 our schools supports for teachers to be able

                 to reach out to when they have a problem with

                 young people.

                            So the only -- for us to come up

                 with the only answer is to arrest them and

                 criminalize them and put them in prison I

                 think is wrong.  So I'm voting no.  And it's

                 not -- I'm not opposed to safety for teachers,





                                                          1188



                 but I am opposed to criminalizing children.  I

                 vote no.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery will be recorded in the negative.

                            Announce the results.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar Number 350 are

                 Senators Duane, Mendez, Montgomery, and Smith.

                 Ayes, 51.  Nays, 4.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Duane.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.  I was hoping that I could have

                 unanimous consent to be recorded in the

                 negative on Calendar Number 135 and Calendar

                 Number 175.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Without

                 objection, Senator Duane will be recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar 135 and 175.

                            Senator Morahan.

                            SENATOR MORAHAN:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            I ask that on Resolution 3298, that

                 we passed a little while ago, that the





                                                          1189



                 sponsorship for that be opened.  I've been

                 asked by several Senators to be included,

                 specifically Senator Lachman and Senator

                 Connor.  If those two could be added as

                 cosponsors, I'd appreciate it.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Those

                 Senators wishing to cosponsor should see the

                 desk, please.

                            Senator Marcellino.  I'm sorry,

                 Senator Velella.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Mr. President,

                 is there any housekeeping now?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Yes,

                 there is.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Senator

                 Marcellino wishes to be recognized.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Marcellino.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    Mr.

                 President, on page Number 5 I offer the

                 following amendments to Calendar Number 12,

                 Senate Print Number 2543, and ask that said

                 bill retain its place on the Third Reading

                 Calendar.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The





                                                          1190



                 amendments are received, and the bill will

                 retain its place on the Third Reading

                 Calendar.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    Likewise,

                 Mr. President, on page Number 18, I offer the

                 following amendments to Calendar Number 240,

                 Senate Print 3987, and ask that said bill

                 retain its place on the Third Reading

                 Calendar.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 amendments are received, and the bill will

                 stay on the Third Reading Calendar.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    Mr.

                 President, I wish to call up Senator Marchi's

                 bill, Print Number 1639B, recalled from the

                 Assembly, which is now at the desk.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 345, by Senator Marchi, Senate Print 1639B, an

                 act to amend the Education Law and the Vehicle

                 and Traffic Law.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    Mr.

                 President, I now move to reconsider the vote

                 by which this bill was passed.





                                                          1191



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll on reconsideration.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 55.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    Mr.

                 President, I now offer the following

                 amendments.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 amendments are received.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    Thank you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Velella, the desk is clean at this point.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Mr. President,

                 there being no further business to come before

                 the Senate, I move we adjourn until Wednesday,

                 March 8, at 11:00 a.m.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    On

                 motion, Senate stands adjourned until

                 Wednesday, March 8th, at 11:00 a.m.

                            (Whereupon, at 5:18 p.m., the

                 Senate adjourned.)