Regular Session - January 23, 2001

                                                              139







                          THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD









                             ALBANY, NEW YORK

                             January 23, 2001

                                11:15 a.m.





                              REGULAR SESSION







                 LT. GOVERNOR MARY O. DONOHUE, President

                 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary



















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                           P R O C E E D I N G S

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Senate will

                 come to order.

                            I ask everyone present to please

                 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of

                 Allegiance.

                            (Whereupon, the assemblage recited

                 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

                            THE PRESIDENT:    In the absence of

                 clergy, may we each bow our heads in a moment

                 of silence.

                            (Whereupon, the assemblage

                 respected a moment of silence.)

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Reading of the

                 Journal.

                            THE SECRETARY:    In Senate,

                 Monday, January 22nd, the Senate met pursuant

                 to adjournment.  The Journal of Saturday,

                 January 20, was read and approved.  On motion,

                 Senate adjourned.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Without

                 objection, the Journal stands approved as

                 read.

                            Presentation of petitions.

                            Messages from the Assembly.





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                            Messages from the Governor.

                            Reports of standing committees.

                            Reports of select committees.

                            Communications and reports from

                 state officers.

                            Motions and resolutions.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in

                 the Majority Conference Room.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in

                 the Majority Conference Room.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Also, if we

                 could adopt the Resolution Calendar in its

                 entirety.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    All those in

                 favor of adopting the Resolution Calendar

                 signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Opposed, nay.

                            (No response.)

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Resolution

                 Calendar is adopted.





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                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Madam President,

                 if we could take up the noncontroversial

                 calendar at this time.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 14, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 207, an

                 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, the

                 Public Health Law, and the Family Court Act,

                 in relation to the authorized destruction of

                 dangerous drugs.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 5.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 46.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 24, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 430,

                 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in





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                 relation to access to sealed records.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 27, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 490,

                 an act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

                 including the theft of dogs and cats within

                 the crime of grand larceny.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 46.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 30, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 684, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

                 computer networks.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.





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                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 50.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 35, by Senator Balboni, Senate Print 852, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

                 enacting the "anti-weapons of mass destruction

                 act."

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 5.  This

                 act shall take effect in 90 days.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 50.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Marcellino, that completes

                 the reading of the noncontroversial calendar.

                            SENATOR MARCELLINO:    Can we have





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                 the reading of the controversial calendar,

                 please.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 24, by Senator DeFrancisco, Senate Print 430,

                 an act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

                 relation to access to sealed records.

                            SENATOR ADA SMITH:    Explanation.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 DeFrancisco, an explanation has been

                 requested.

                            SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:    This is a

                 bill that basically allows for a court to

                 order that sealed records be open for review

                 upon a request by -- upon a finding by the

                 court that there's extraordinary circumstances

                 to allow the unsealing upon application by the

                 professional licensing organizations doing the

                 investigation on possible discipline.  This

                 applies to sealed records of attorneys,

                 doctors, and other professionals.

                            And the purpose of it is that in

                 the event that there's an inquiry concerning





                                                          146



                 whether based upon some facts or some

                 allegations that a professional should have

                 his license either suspended or there should

                 be some type of action taken on account of

                 certain activities of that professional, that

                 licensing body or investigative body should be

                 able to get access to those records that have

                 been sealed by a prior proceeding.

                            And the judge is only allowed to do

                 that and to unseal the records upon notice to

                 the person being investigated for possible

                 disciplinary actions and upon the showing of

                 extraordinary circumstances.

                            And I have been many, many times

                 accused of being a trial attorney, that I just

                 somehow have an affinity towards doing

                 everything trial attorneys want.  This happens

                 to be opposed by the trial attorneys.

                            But I think it's a good bill

                 because the bill would provide some useful

                 information in some instances.  So that if

                 someone is doing something improperly and

                 unprofessionally, the regulatory agency can

                 get whatever evidence they want to get upon a

                 showing of extraordinary circumstances.





                                                          147



                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Madam

                 President, would Senator DeFrancisco yield for

                 a question.

                            SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:    Yes.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Go ahead, Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Madam

                 President, I'm looking for an example of the

                 extraordinary circumstances that would be the

                 catalyst -

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Senator

                 Paterson, if I could just interrupt for a

                 minute.  There will be an immediate meeting of

                 the Environmental Conservation Committee in

                 the Majority Conference Room.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Environmental

                 Conservation Committee in the Majority

                 Conference Room.

                            You may proceed, Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            I just wanted to know if Senator





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                 DeFrancisco would inform the body of the type

                 of extraordinary circumstance that he thinks

                 would be the catalyst for actually unsealing

                 the records.

                            SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:    Well, it

                 would have to be on a case-by-case basis.

                            One I can think of, it may very

                 well be that someone could be -- a charge

                 could be dismissed or adjourned in

                 contemplation of dismissal because that

                 particular charge may have been the first

                 offense alleged against the professional.

                 Maybe there's a dismissal based upon -- in the

                 interests of justice, because of many, many

                 different reasons, because that professional

                 may be a stalwart in the community.  And

                 weighing all those things together and all the

                 good things that person has done, in the

                 interests of the justice, the court might

                 dismiss the case.

                            Or, as I mentioned before, an

                 adjournment in contemplation of dismissal for

                 a first offender.  It may very well be, from

                 the criminal standpoint, and the need to

                 sentence someone to a criminal sentence may





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                 not be that important.  But the activity may

                 be a theft of client funds, for example.  It

                 may be some extremely unethical activity that

                 might not raise to the level that a prosecutor

                 would really want to go for a conviction and a

                 possible sentence.

                            And I think when a judge, weighing

                 all those factors, can make a determination

                 based upon the alleged offense and what

                 information might be available, based on the

                 charge that was ultimately adjourned in

                 contemplation of dismissal, that that might be

                 useful in either supporting the unethical

                 conduct or possibly clearing the professional

                 from that allegation by a complainant.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar Number 24 are

                 Senators Brown, Duane, Hassell-Thompson,





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                 Montgomery, and Paterson.  Ayes, 52.  Nays, 5.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Skelos, that completes the

                 controversial calendar.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Please recognize

                 Senator Larkin.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Larkin.

                            SENATOR LARKIN:    Mr. President,

                 on the Resolution Calendar, on Calendar Number

                 248 on the Resolution Calendar, we'd like to

                 open that up.

                            This is in recognition of Autism

                 Day.  And we know that all of us have some

                 areas of concern in that throughout the state.

                 And so we'd like to open it up for everybody

                 if they'd like to get on it.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Larkin, that was Calendar 248?

                            SENATOR LARKIN:    248 on the

                 Resolution Calendar.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Resolut

                 ion 248 will be open for cosponsorship.

                 Anyone who wishes to, inform the desk.





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                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 if we could return to reports of standing

                 committees, I believe there's a report of the

                 Rules Committee at the desk.  I ask that it be

                 read at this time.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Reports

                 of standing committees.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator Bruno,

                 from the Committee on Rules, reports the

                 following bills:

                            Senate Print 3, by Senator Bruno,

                 an act to amend the Insurance Law and the

                 Public Health Law;

                            And Senate Print 1265, by Senator

                 LaValle, an act to amend the Insurance Law.

                            Both bills ordered direct to third

                 reading.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 bills will be reported directly to third

                 reading.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Move to accept

                 the Rules report.





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                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    All

                 those in favor of accepting the report of the

                 Rules Committee signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Rules report is accepted.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 if you could call up Senate 1265, Calendar

                 Number 39, for the purposes of Senator

                 Stachowski voting.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 39, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 1265, an

                 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

                 coverage.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This

                 act shall take effect July 1.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the





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                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Stachowski.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    No.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Stachowski will be recorded in the negative.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Withdraw the

                 roll call.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Roll

                 call is withdrawn.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Local Government

                 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

                 Immediate meeting of the Local Government

                 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.

                            Senator Bruno.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Mr. President,

                 can we at this time take up Senate Calendar

                 Number 3 -- Bill 3.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The





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                 Secretary will read Senate Calendar Number 38,

                 Senate Print Number 3.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 38, by Senator Bruno, Senate Number 3, an act

                 to amend the Insurance Law and the Public

                 Health Law, in relation to coverage of primary

                 and preventive obstetric and gynecologic care.

                            SENATOR CONNOR:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Bruno, Senator Connor has requested an

                 explanation.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Mr. President, we

                 have been for a lot of years dealing with

                 health issues in this chamber.  And many of

                 those health issues have improved the quality

                 of life for all the people here in New York.

                            We focused last year on women's

                 health issues.  We created a task force on

                 women's health issues.  And this is a first

                 bill that comes from the good work of that

                 task force, that was chaired by Senators Rath

                 and Bonacic and assisted by many of our

                 colleagues here in the chamber, with many of

                 the advocacy groups that are out there who of

                 course have a vital interest in women's health





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                 issues.

                            So the bill before us really deals

                 with what everybody recognizes, that if you're

                 going to have good health, that deals with

                 disease prevention and early detection of

                 anything that is afflicting especially women.

                 So this deals with breast and cervical cancer

                 screening as a mandate, it deals with

                 osteoporosis, bone density screening, and it

                 provides, with a doctor's prescription,

                 contraceptives.

                            And it also clarifies a '94 law

                 that gives more direct access for women for

                 OB-GYN treatment by doctors so that they don't

                 have to go to a primary care physician in

                 order to access that kind of examination or

                 treatment.

                            That in essence is what happens in

                 this particular piece of legislation.  And I'm

                 sure that my colleagues Senator Rath, Senator

                 Bonacic, Senator Hannon in the Health

                 Committee, Senator Seward, who assisted in the

                 Insurance Committee, can help in terms of

                 answering whatever other observations or

                 questions my colleagues might have.





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                            Thank you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Connor.

                            SENATOR CONNOR:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            Well, if this represents progress

                 on this issue, I'm delighted.  Certainly we

                 were disappointed when we left last year

                 without having done this.  Although on a

                 personal level, I'm glad we did prostate

                 cancer.

                            But the fact is that there are a

                 couple of things with this bill that are

                 different than the Assembly version that's

                 passed the Assembly.  So I would urge -- I

                 mean, I assume this will pass here, but I

                 would urge the Majority to get together with

                 the Assembly very quickly in conference

                 committees and work out some of these

                 differences, because they're not

                 insignificant.  And at least for me, they

                 compel me to vote against this bill in its

                 present form.

                            I hope it will be back, because

                 obviously it's too important an issue to get





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                 bogged down between the houses and become a

                 one-house in each house.  In fact, if you look

                 at -- there are pieces of this bill that, if

                 you just cut the rest of it out, I think both

                 houses would pass in about an hour.  But that

                 said, we do have some concerns.

                            And if I may, Mr. President, yield

                 the floor to Senator Schneiderman for the

                 purposes of offering an amendment.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Mr.

                 President, I have an amendment at the desk.

                 I'd like to call it up, waive its reading and

                 give an explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 amendment is at the desk, and you're

                 recognized for the purpose of explaining it.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.

                            We're going to be offering two

                 amendments to this bill.  And the two

                 amendments essentially would conform it not

                 just to the Assembly bill, as Senator Connor

                 mentioned, but to the Bonacic bill that had on





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                 it as of my last calculation last year, a

                 dozen Republican Senators as sponsors.

                            That bill, the same as the Assembly

                 Bill, did not include the extraordinarily

                 broad conscience clause that is in the current

                 piece of legislation.  As we discussed last

                 year, this conscience clause, which is the

                 same conscience clause as in Senator LaValle's

                 bill on fertility treatment, is broader than

                 any that has ever been passed in the State of

                 New York.

                            Its language, particularly the

                 language that exempts organizations that are

                 operated, supervised, or controlled by or in

                 connection with a religious organization from

                 the requirement that they provide

                 contraceptive coverage -- this would cover a

                 joint venture between Fordham University and a

                 biotech firm.  This covers hundreds of

                 thousands of women in New York State who need

                 this coverage.

                            It is far broader than anything

                 we've ever passed.  And I suggest that unless

                 it is amended to delete this broad clause, I

                 would strongly recommend a no vote.  I think





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                 this is a poison pill that the Assembly will

                 never pass.  It's a poison pill of the

                 magnitude that it probably belongs in Senator

                 Balboni's "weapons of mass destruction act."

                            This is a stonewall to actually

                 moving on the bill.  And I strongly suggest we

                 take it out.  I urge a yes vote on the

                 amendment to delete this clause and, if it is

                 not deleted, a no vote on the bill.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 question is on the amendment.  All those in

                 favor signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (Response of "Nay.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 amendment fails.  The amendment fails.

                            Senator Oppenheimer.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    I believe I

                 have an amendment at the desk.  And I'd like

                 to waive its reading and speak on it, if I

                 may.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The





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                 amendment is at the desk.  The reading is

                 waived, and you're recognized for the purpose

                 of explaining it.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.

                            This amendment requires insurance

                 coverage for annual mammograms for women over

                 age 40 and provides that these mammograms

                 won't be subject to deductibles or copayments.

                 To put financial obstacles in the way of

                 breast and cervical screening seems obscene to

                 me.

                            Current law provides for mammograms

                 every two years for women over age 40 -- and

                 actually, at the recommendations of a

                 physician, it can be more than annually -- and

                 for women over 50, it would be annual.  Now,

                 the current law does provide for deductibles,

                 and that is not included in my amendment.  I

                 would waive deductibles.

                            The bill before us, Senate Bill 3,

                 would require annual mammograms for women 40

                 to 49 but then over age 50 would require the

                 recommendations of a physician.  This is

                 contrary to our current law.  Our current law





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                 says that women above the age of 50 can access

                 an annual mammogram.  Also, Bill Number 3

                 allows for deductibles.

                            I think we should note that the

                 American Cancer Society recommends that there

                 be annual mammograms provided for all women as

                 a way of obtaining their preventive health

                 care.

                            Studies have shown that women pay

                 68 percent more than men for their

                 out-of-pocket health costs.  And this is

                 primarily because there are so many preventive

                 care measures that are taken by women,

                 required by women.

                            Now, this amendment will help to

                 lower this disparity by requiring health

                 insurers to cover annual mammograms for women

                 age 40 and over, and it prohibits the charging

                 of deductibles for mammograms, or copayments.

                 I think to put financial barriers in place

                 that discriminate against women is really

                 unconscionable in this society.

                            I urge the adoption of this

                 amendment.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The





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                 question is on the amendment.  All those in

                 favor signify by saying aye.

                            SENATOR CONNOR:    Party vote in

                 the affirmative.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Party vote in the

                 negative.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 24.  Nays,

                 36.  Party vote.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 amendment fails.

                            Senator Bruno.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    On the bill, Mr.

                 President.

                            You know, it would be unfortunate

                 if we just tend to politicize an issue that's

                 as important as this.  I understand when you

                 talk about eliminate copay, any cost, totally

                 free -- when you talk about that, it sounds as

                 if you are the benefactors of all of the

                 people who are out there.

                            But I'm asking my colleagues to

                 consider what the task force considered and





                                                          163



                 all the responsible people consider, that

                 every aspect of health care today has a copay.

                 And you start eliminating copays on this

                 issue, and you will be forced by pressures to

                 eliminate copay in every aspect of health

                 care.  And the 3 million-plus people in this

                 state without insurance will grow to

                 astronomical numbers.

                            Now, is that a responsible thing

                 for any legislative group to do to the public?

                 Sure, it's nice to talk about a giveaway.

                 Let's make it free.  Politically, that's

                 expedient.  But let's not be political with an

                 issue that is as important as this.  And let's

                 not posture, because any bill that becomes law

                 is going to have a copay in it.

                            So politically, you want to take a

                 position, it's been defeated.  Not because we

                 wouldn't like to participate in giveaways, but

                 because we want to be responsible to the

                 public and to the people of this state and

                 keep the uninsured numbers at some manageable

                 level.

                            We passed Family Health Plus.  Why

                 did we do that?  Because there are over





                                                          164



                 3 million people without insurance in this

                 state.  That's intended to include about a

                 million of the people who can't afford

                 insurance.  Child Health Plus, why did we do

                 that?

                            So I'm asking you to be

                 responsible.  I know that you will support

                 this.  And we will negotiate.  And by the way,

                 we're waiting for the Assembly to pass a bill.

                            The importance of this relates to

                 the fact that this is Senate 3 and that we are

                 doing this early in the session.  We want to

                 see this become law.

                            And on the conscience clause, why

                 should this body or any other body be

                 dictating to a religious group -- and they

                 have to be religious -- that they must mandate

                 something that they feel religiously they

                 can't support?  Why should we mandate and

                 legislate that that has to happen?

                            And, Senator, it is not accurate to

                 say that they can partner and they can at will

                 do what they please, because the Insurance

                 Department in this state is mandated to make

                 sure that if anyone uses the conscience





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                 clause, it's on religious grounds, and they

                 will attest to that.  So they will monitor and

                 they will police that this is not used

                 indiscriminately.

                            And I know there are others that

                 are much more knowledgeable -- Senator

                 Bonacic, Senator Rath, and the others on this

                 issue -- and they may have some observations

                 and comments.

                            So to the bill, this is an

                 important piece of legislation.  We want to

                 move the process.  And I would urge my

                 colleagues to support this so that we can get

                 a bill that does become law.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.  On the bill.

                            I understand Senator Bruno's

                 comments, and I appreciate his assigning this

                 bill certainly the political and social

                 importance of making it Senate 3 and bringing

                 it to the floor early on in the session.

                            Senator Bruno, I would disagree

                 sharply with one thing you said, however.  The





                                                          166



                 amendment that was proposed by Senator

                 Oppenheimer to eliminate copays for the most

                 important form of preventive care for women

                 over the age of 40 to early detect and treat

                 breast cancer I don't think should be

                 characterized as a giveaway.

                            I think if you stand up for women

                 who believe that mammograms are the most

                 important means of detecting this horrible

                 disease, which has extracted a horrible price

                 from New York women, and without a copay, when

                 most of our preventive treatments in this

                 state do not involve copays, it seems to me

                 what we're doing is creating parity for women

                 over the age of 40 with many other people who

                 don't have to pay copays in this state.  And I

                 just believe that to characterize it as a

                 giveaway is inaccurate.

                            Mr. President, on the bill.  I too

                 am troubled by the conscience clause, and let

                 me explain briefly why.  This conscience

                 clause has two parts.  The first part says

                 that if you're an employer, you cannot be

                 required to provide certain forms of

                 diagnostic and treatment, which most likely is





                                                          167



                 going to mean contraceptive care, to your

                 employees.

                            I believe that there is a

                 foundation for making that exception for an

                 employer.  I believe the Catholic Conference,

                 the Catholic Church, doesn't necessarily have

                 an obligation to provide treatments that are

                 inconsistent with its fundamental mission to

                 its employees.  And I believe that a carefully

                 drafted conscience clause -- not this one, and

                 I'll explain why -- but a carefully drafted

                 conscience clause could exclude certain

                 religious organizations from providing these

                 benefits.

                            However, this conscience clause

                 goes another step and it says that any health

                 maintenance organization, either sponsored or

                 controlled by a religious organization, is

                 subject to the same possibility that the

                 people who it provides coverage to will not

                 get those benefits, will not get that

                 treatment or detection or care.

                            And it seems to me that that goes

                 too far, because it says that the mere fact

                 that you're in the business of health care -





                                                          168



                 you're not in the business of religion, you're

                 in the business of health care, providing

                 health care -- under those circumstances, your

                 religious beliefs can prevent you from

                 providing mandated services that we require

                 everyone else to provide.

                            I would suggest that that clause

                 goes too far when it applies to a health

                 maintenance organization regardless of its

                 affiliation to any religious institution.  If

                 they're in the business of health care, we

                 should be able to mandate what type of health

                 care benefits they provide to their

                 policyholders.

                            Conversely, if they're in the

                 religion business and they have a fundamental

                 tenet against providing that coverage to their

                 employees, I believe that a carefully drafted

                 conscience clause would be appropriate for an

                 employer.  But not when they're in the

                 business of health care.

                            And let me conclude by telling you

                 this is not the right way to do it.  This says

                 that it has to be held to be contrary to the

                 religious tenets of the organization.  And I





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                 would suggest to you that some day the courts

                 of this state will sit down and have to

                 interpret whether the type of health care

                 provided under the plan is contrary to the

                 religious tenets of any religious group.

                            I believe that that will plunge New

                 York State unconstitutionally into having our

                 courts evaluate the religious tenets of

                 religious organizations.  It violates the

                 First Amendment.  It will jump the courts of

                 this state into the religious affairs of

                 religious communities around this state.  And

                 that is not the right thing to do.

                            The civil courts of this state

                 should not be in the position of deciding the

                 religious tenets of any organization.  That

                 belongs completely as an ecclesiastical

                 matter, and we ought to stay out of it.

                            The bottom line for me, Mr.

                 President, I'm still not sure which way I'm

                 going to vote.  But I believe that a broad

                 clause like this is dangerous.  I think it

                 plunges us into a pattern of unacceptable

                 conduct.  I believe that a more narrowly

                 confined religious conscience clause would





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                 work.  And my guess is as I sit here I'm going

                 to vote against this bill because I don't

                 think the religious conscience clause does the

                 job.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Rath.

                            SENATOR RATH:    Thank you.

                            There is nothing quite so powerful

                 as an idea whose time has come.  One of the

                 sage persons that we revere said that a long

                 time ago.  And I think this idea has come.

                 It's come to the floor of the New York State

                 Senate.  It was here at the end of last year,

                 but it never quite got to the floor for

                 debate.  And although a bill passed in the

                 other house, we slowed things down some.

                            At the request of Senator Bruno, a

                 task force was formed on health and wellness.

                 And as you know, health and wellness goes a

                 lot further than one bill.

                            This is the first bill that we will

                 be seeing in relation to health and wellness.

                 It has to do, of course, with women's

                 services.  I think the laundry list of items

                 that it's going to provide have been well





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                 documented and talked about on the floor.

                            But I'd like to say something about

                 the cost issue because, as the chairman of the

                 Local Government Committee, that was my

                 biggest concern last year and why I personally

                 wanted to step back and take some time to look

                 it over.

                            We spent a lot of time talking

                 about costs.  We spent a lot of time talking

                 about copays.  I pay a copay.  I'm sure the

                 women on the other side of the aisle, my

                 colleagues here on this side of the aisle, we

                 pay copays.  We don't mind.  We can afford to

                 pay that.  It helps keep the cost of insurance

                 down, it helps avoid overutilization, it does

                 a lot of things.  It makes us a partner with

                 our employers and the health insurance

                 companies who are providing the insurance that

                 we have as a result of being employees.

                            I think it's important that we know

                 that the poor women of this state are taken

                 care of.  They're taken care of by Medicaid,

                 and more will be taken care of as Family

                 Health Plus comes into place.  The low-income

                 earners, Family Health Plus as well as the





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                 Healthy Women Partnership; again, another

                 place.  Healthy New York, another program that

                 will help employers cover the cost if they

                 would not ordinarily cover the cost because

                 they're small business people.

                            And how many times on this floor

                 have we talked about small business people?

                 How many times have we said we need to do what

                 we can to keep businesses in New York State,

                 we can't drive them out with high taxes, high

                 costs, et cetera, et cetera.  You know the

                 argument as well as I do.

                            And this was a slowing down in

                 order to clarify what the costs were going to

                 be.  I said, as chairman of Local Government,

                 my concerns were not only with the cost for

                 business but, if we have uninsured and if the

                 ranks of the uninsured rise dramatically, who

                 ends up paying for them?  We know.  They

                 become the costs to the counties, where I come

                 from -- and all the counties, but I certainly

                 do recall those county days and the health

                 care costs -- in partnership with the state.

                            And so we have a balance, a cost

                 and a benefit balance.  It would be nice to





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                 say we can be all things to all people all the

                 time.  We know we can't do that.  And so with

                 the chairman of Insurance and the chairman of

                 the Health Committee, we spend a lot of time

                 talking with my colleague Senator Bonacic, the

                 cochair of the Health and Wellness Task Force.

                            And so we have a piece that is

                 coming out today that I'm sure will be passed.

                 Is it the last you have heard of this?  I

                 doubt it.  What will the Assembly do?  I don't

                 know.  Will we end up with a better bill when

                 we finally come to the end of session?  I

                 certainly hope so.  Because I think there's a

                 lot of improvement always that can occur.

                            But you've got to start with

                 something.  You've got to start with a piece

                 that has, as it were, crossed the finish line

                 once.  Will there be another race and other

                 finish lines before the end of this session?

                 I expect so.

                            But let me just close with a

                 comment about a 1997 report from Smith Barney

                 research.  It found that women make

                 three-fourths of the health decisions in

                 American households and they spend almost two





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                 out of every 3 health care dollars,

                 approximately $500 billion annually.  This is

                 spent by women because women are the

                 caregivers.  You know it and I know it.  It's

                 been traditional.  And I don't want my male

                 colleagues to take offense.  However, if the

                 mother in the household stays healthy,

                 everyone else can get healthy, because the

                 mother is there to make sure everyone has got

                 the opportunity to get either to the doctor or

                 get the care they need.

                            So we know that women have

                 traditionally played that role of caregiver.

                 This bill essentially ensures that the

                 caregivers are eligible for care, that the

                 caregivers are eligible for care.  I think

                 it's important that we pass this, we make this

                 statement, and then we get on with the

                 business of how we can turn this into law.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Bonacic.

                            SENATOR BONACIC:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.  On the bill.

                            I would like to focus on what this

                 bill accomplishes.  The bill addresses women's





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                 health and wellness.  As was adequately

                 pointed out by Senator Oppenheimer, women pay

                 68 percent of health care costs out of their

                 pocket, not covered by existing insurance

                 policies and health plans in the State of New

                 York.

                            That is an inequity.  And we want

                 to address that inequity.  And I congratulate

                 my Assembly colleagues that are working to

                 address that inequity.  But let's talk about

                 what we would be accomplishing today if we

                 pass this bill.

                            Breast cancer:  Number one killer

                 of women ages 40 to 59.  Under the law today,

                 a woman who is 50 years or older can get a

                 mammogram or a Pap smear on a doctor's

                 recommendation every year, but not women 40 to

                 49.  This bill says that women will be

                 covered, upon a doctor's recommendation, every

                 year from 40 to 49.

                            Now, when we have 41,000 women

                 dying of breast cancer in the United States

                 every year, we have 12,000 women in the state

                 of New York getting breast cancer every year

                 and 3500 of them are dying, that is scary.  We





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                 can't wait.  We can't pontificate.  This

                 accomplishes aid for those women immediately.

                 And I tell you what.  If they had a mammogram,

                 those women, every year from 40 to 49, we save

                 30 percent of those 3500 women that are dying.

                            That's how important this is.  And

                 you know the scary part?  The women that are

                 getting the breast cancer, 70 percent of them

                 have no history.  They don't know it's there.

                 So early detection on breast cancer is

                 critical to the women of this state.

                            I want to congratulate our leader,

                 the women of our Senate conference and the

                 women of this Senate body, as well as the task

                 force members and those advocates out there

                 that have come in and have identified the

                 women's issues in health that they want

                 addressed.  So we accomplish that by this

                 legislation today.

                            The second thing, osteoporosis.

                 Not glitzy; you don't hear about it much.  But

                 it is growing in the United States as a very

                 bad disease for the citizens of this country.

                 8 million people have osteoporosis.

                 10 million are waiting to happen.  And by the





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                 way, on osteoporosis, it affects women eight

                 times greater than men; on breast cancer,

                 women five times greater than men.

                            So what do we do by this bill?  We

                 allow women to access services for the

                 treatment of osteoporosis through insurance

                 policies that they don't have now.  That they

                 don't have now.

                            So as the leader points out, this

                 is a bill in prevention.  Because we pay for

                 mastectomies, we pay for breast surgeries, we

                 pay catastrophe dollars to address that

                 covered by policies now, on the back end.  For

                 osteoporosis, we pay for those 1.5 million

                 fractures, of which 300,000 are hip fractures.

                 We pay now.  But we don't pay for the

                 prevention.  That's what we accomplish by this

                 bill.

                            The third thing we accomplish, we

                 get rid of a loophole.  And that is a woman

                 for primary care doesn't have to go through a

                 gatekeeper, she can go to a gynecologist to be

                 treated.

                            And last but not least, the fourth

                 aspect of this bill is the contraceptive





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                 provision.  And now every insurance policy for

                 individuals can access contraceptives.  Yes,

                 there is a religious clause.  Yes, we can

                 discuss better language, or this language.

                 But this is a woman's health and wellness

                 bill.  Don't lose sight of what we're trying

                 to accomplish.  We never had contraceptive

                 coverage, and now we will be covering.

                            Do we get all of the women?  Some

                 slip through.  Because let's just -- I'm not

                 picking on the Catholic Church, but let's stay

                 with the Catholic Church.  We have about 35

                 HMOs, they have two Catholic HMOs.  They're

                 going to insist that those HMOs don't have

                 contraceptives, so these women won't be able

                 to access that.  But we think it's a small

                 portion.  That's something we continue to

                 address tomorrow.

                            So for all of these reasons, I ask

                 you to support this bill, to improve not only

                 women's health but wellness for the families

                 of the state of New York.

                            Thank you very much, Mr. President.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Mr.

                 President, I would like to ask the Senator a





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                 question if he will yield.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Senator has yielded the floor.  He's sat down.

                            We have a speaker's list, if you

                 would like to be added to the list.

                            Senator Hoffmann.

                            SENATOR HOFFMANN:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            I would like to offer my hearty

                 congratulations to my two colleagues, Senator

                 Rath and Senator Bonacic, who have for years

                 championed this issue and done yeoman's

                 service in bringing it to the attention of the

                 entire conference.

                            And my thanks to Senator Bruno for

                 his personal leadership in providing the

                 guidance and the direction to make sure that

                 it would happen and happen early in this

                 session.

                            All too often the hard work that

                 goes on behind the scenes is not recognized by

                 the general public.  But I know how hard

                 Senator Rath and Senator Bonacic, along with

                 the other members of the task force, have

                 struggled with this issue, because it an





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                 intricate issue.  It cuts across so many

                 lines.  We're talking about delivery of health

                 care, we're talking about insurance, we're

                 talking about religion, and we're talking on a

                 very emotional and painful level, from

                 personal experiences, about people -- real,

                 living human beings who are facing enormous

                 risk if they don't get this kind of coverage

                 that we are now going to make available in New

                 York State.  And for some of us, the faces of

                 people who are no longer with us haunt us

                 while we have this dialogue.

                            And no matter what we do, we'll

                 always think that there's something else that

                 can be done.  And I think Senator Rath said it

                 best when she said that this is part of an

                 ongoing process.  And Senator Bruno

                 established at our press conference a little

                 while ago that the task force will continue.

                 I'm proud to be part of this task force and to

                 know that I am in a legislative body that is

                 going to make addressing health issues a major

                 priority, not just for a few weeks, not just

                 for this session, but forever.

                            Thank you, Senator Bruno, for the





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                 kind comments that you made to the three women

                 Republican Senators.  Because we do feel that

                 our numbers allow us to be on an even playing

                 field.  When you said the numbers 33 men and 3

                 Republican women, but it's an even game, we

                 recognize that today because you are standing

                 here with us on these important measures.

                            Breast and cervical cancer continue

                 to take women's lives, younger women all the

                 time.  The statistics are alarming.  If

                 undiagnosed in a young woman, the disease is

                 more virulent and tends to cause a mortality

                 much faster than for an older woman.

                 Therefore, the need for that early diagnosis

                 is critical.  If women don't know that it's

                 part of their history, if it's not something

                 that is on their mind, and if there is no

                 family history, it's unlikely they're going to

                 feel highly motivated to go and incur a huge

                 expense to find out if they are at risk, if

                 they have developed the disease.

                            We need to provide that safety net

                 that says your insurance will pay the cost of

                 cervical cancer screening or mammography.

                 This measure will do that, and for that, the





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                 women of New York State will be grateful.

                            Osteoporosis.  I like Senator

                 Bonacic's reference to it.  It's not a glitzy

                 issue, he said, it's not a glitzy disease.  Do

                 you know what it is?  Does everybody recognize

                 what osteoporosis does?  Have you all seen

                 those little old ladies with what is called a

                 dowager's hump, women who are bent over, they

                 don't stand up straight, women who started off

                 at 5 foot 5 or 5 foot 6 in their youth and by

                 the time they're 65, 75, or 80, they're 4 foot

                 8 and they can't stand up straight?  Do you

                 know how brittle those bones are?  Do you know

                 how painful it is for them if they fall?  And

                 do you realize how likely it is that they will

                 suffer fractures, painful fractures, that

                 obviously will cost them time, energy,

                 anguish, and, as Senator Rath points out, hurt

                 all of their families while they're

                 recovering?

                            We have a responsibility, since we

                 know the data on osteoporosis, to detect it

                 early.  Now is the time to find out if a woman

                 is subject to osteoporosis, at an early age so

                 that she can have treatment.  And that





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                 includes calcium and hormonal treatment and

                 increased exercise.

                            Because this is the beginning, we

                 will probably be standing here looking at

                 other legislation in years to come and months

                 to come that will include many more things

                 that will allow that type of diagnosis and

                 treatment.  Since exercise is such a big part

                 of it, maybe we'll be looking at legislation

                 that allows mandatory coverage in health clubs

                 so that the exercise component will be there

                 along with the medical component.

                            All of this is preventative care.

                 We are learning as we go.  And we are prepared

                 to venture into the future with the interest

                 of women's health at heart.

                            But the most significant piece of

                 this legislation, bar none, is the inclusion

                 of contraceptive care in insurance policies in

                 New York State.  Women of all ages have

                 protested the inequity of having to pay

                 out-of-pocket for contraceptive coverage for

                 years.  And how many of them have needed it

                 not for contraceptive purposes but for

                 prescribed hormonal treatment?





                                                          184



                            Now we are addressing one of the

                 most basic needs for women to control their

                 own bodies, to control their own destinies, to

                 have a sense of dignity with their health.

                 This is a sign that we recognize all of those

                 things are as important policy initiatives as

                 any economic platform in this state

                 government.

                            And I'm enormously proud to be here

                 today as a member of the task force on women's

                 wellness, thank all of my colleagues who

                 participated in this, and pledge continuing

                 commitment to do even more for women's

                 wellness in New York State.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Hannon.

                            SENATOR HANNON:    Yes.  I rise

                 because I want to address the two points that

                 were raised by the Minority.

                            Before I do that, I really want to

                 congratulate Senators Bruno and Bonacic and

                 Rath for having brought this Senate such a

                 long way, and especially on the point Senator

                 Hoffmann just mentioned.  Getting the coverage

                 in regard to contraception is a major step.





                                                          185



                 And I don't think it has been recognized and I

                 don't think it has been acknowledged by the

                 advocates who are out there.

                            Let me just address quickly the

                 questions of copay and the conscience clause.

                 To the extent that people want to do away with

                 this, they diminish whatever intellectual

                 standing they have left.  Copay and deductible

                 is an essential aspect of insurance in order

                 to extend the benefit to as many people as

                 possible.  We've spent a considerable amount

                 of time making sure that we would do a serious

                 dent to the uninsured in this state.  It makes

                 no sense to introduce things that won't work.

                            Now, we're introducing this not in

                 a discriminatory way.  And notwithstanding

                 what Senator Dollinger said, this is not

                 something unique in regard to preventive and

                 screening services.  It's the same.  And in

                 the bill it says it shall be done in a

                 reasonably consistent way, supervised by the

                 insurance.  Specifically says that so that it

                 applies the same way as everything else.  If

                 we're not to do it, would we be taking

                 coverage for heart attacks or EKGs or things





                                                          186



                 like that and saying they're not as good?

                            And second, the reason you do a

                 copay is this is not a means test.  We've

                 already taken care of -- full coverage -- for

                 those people who can't pay.  We have Medicaid,

                 we Family Health Plus.  If you're older, we

                 have Medicare.  So we're not dealing with

                 that.  And to try to use some kind of

                 amendment that will become a cheap political

                 trick I think does a disservice to getting

                 good care for as many people as possible.

                            Second, the conscience clause.

                 There was a comment that this is not the right

                 way to do it.  You know, it really I think is

                 a misunderstanding of the health care system.

                 Someone over there tried to make a distinction

                 that you can be religious or you can offer

                 health care, ignoring the rich history we have

                 in this nation of religions seeing as their

                 mission offering health care.

                            And so it strikes me as inherently

                 contradictory that we would welcome the

                 benefits of that mission, welcome the benefits

                 of an HMO, the Fidelis, that does Medicaid

                 managed care to the poor throughout northern





                                                          187



                 New York, where nobody else would do it -- we

                 ignore those benefits and then we try to say,

                 oh, wait, but you can't have a conscience

                 clause.

                            We have coexisted.  There are rich,

                 rich treatises on church and state.  And we do

                 have involvement back and forth.  I think it

                 is very simple to say that a conscience clause

                 belongs in this arena and that we ought to

                 have it whatever what the actual wording may

                 be.  I don't think that saying it goes forward

                 to some type of technology alliance with a

                 biotech company is reading what's in this

                 proposal.  And I don't think it's a logical

                 conclusion.

                            Thank you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Goodman.

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Mr. President,

                 clearly this bill confers many substantial

                 benefits which were not heretofore available.

                 And to that extent, we're deeply grateful to

                 its sponsors and to the committee, especially

                 to Senators Bonacic and colleagues who were so

                 heavily involved.





                                                          188



                            May I say, however, I think we owe

                 it to ourselves to look beyond the immediate

                 questions that have arisen today and to say to

                 ourselves what happens to the individuals who

                 work for institutions run by the Catholic

                 Church who may themselves not be Catholic -

                 they might be Muslim, they might be Hindu,

                 they might be any number of other religions

                 who are not bound by the Catholic strictures

                 inherent in this.  What can they possibly do

                 to protect themselves?

                            Mr. President, I rise to suggest

                 that there is a method by which this can be

                 accomplished, one to which this house should

                 address itself most earnestly.  That is the

                 so-called the Hawaii plan.  Under the Hawaii

                 plan, if I work for an institution, let us say

                 a Catholic hospital, and this bill passes -

                 which we expect that it will do because of its

                 many benefits -- then the question is if I

                 want coverage for contraception, in what

                 manner can I obtain it?

                            The answer in Hawaii is I can

                 request a rider from the insurance company

                 which provides certain coverage, and that





                                                          189



                 rider gives me the opportunity to obtain

                 contraceptive coverage at the discounted price

                 which would otherwise be available to me.

                            In my judgement, this does two

                 things.  First of all, it respects the

                 absolute right of the Catholic Church to

                 prescribe for its followers those tenets which

                 it believes to be fundamental.  And I have no

                 argument with this.  I think we owe great

                 respect to the Church, and its point of view

                 in this house has always maintained that

                 position very clearly.

                            However, what about the people who

                 do not happen to prescribe to those tenets?

                 What do we do about the people who need the

                 coverage and who earnestly require it but

                 would otherwise be barred from obtaining it?

                 The answer is under the Hawaii plan I can

                 obtain a rider.  The rider will allow me as an

                 individual to obtain the necessary insurance

                 coverage.  And that's precisely the effect

                 which I think we should make available to

                 people.

                            In short, there's no reason why

                 those of us who deeply respect the Catholic





                                                          190



                 Church's right to narrow its coverage in the

                 fashion which this bill would permit to

                 preclude those who wish to do something other

                 than that to do it.  I think this is a

                 rational approach, and I hope that in the days

                 ahead, as we proceed in this ongoing process

                 of analysis, that we will able to come up with

                 a Hawaii-type plan, apply it here, and permit

                 greater flexibility in the application of an

                 exceedingly urgent matter.

                            And I also point out that

                 contraception is not a term that is

                 single-purpose.  There are certain

                 contraceptive methods which also have a dual

                 purpose, one of which is to regularize a

                 woman's menstrual cycle, another of which

                 might be to help prevent HIV infection from

                 spreading.

                            There are a variety of reasons why

                 contraception is per se not merely birth

                 control but medically necessary.  I hope we'll

                 keep that in mind as well as we consider the

                 possibility of applying the Hawaii plan to

                 this matter.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.





                                                          191



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Mr.

                 President, on this bill.

                            I think that I certainly appreciate

                 the comments especially made by Senator Rath

                 in terms of us making it possible for the

                 caregivers to be eligible for care.  And the

                 fact that we have expanded access through our

                 Family Health Plus and our Child Health Plus

                 is very welcome, very important, and I applaud

                 us for doing that.

                            The legislation before us does

                 provide for women access to be covered by our

                 insurance policies, our HMOs and providers for

                 preventive services.  And obviously that's

                 very important.  We start out with gynecologic

                 services.

                            Now, the problem that I have with

                 the legislation, and the problem that I think

                 is extremely important because it is going to

                 create two tiers of health care for us, or two

                 classes of women who will be covered under

                 this legislation, is the section that deals

                 with contraceptives which allows for employers





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                 who are connected to religious-affiliated

                 organizations to disallow coverage for their

                 employees.

                            Now, as far as I can tell, if there

                 is an HMO or if there is a provider that

                 employs women in such situations as hospitals,

                 where we have women who are doctors, nurses,

                 clerical people, housekeeping people,

                 nutrition people, I daresay that the largest

                 percentage of people who work in hospitals are

                 women.  What about people who work in nursing

                 homes that have a religious affiliation?  What

                 about people who work in group homes or other

                 social service organizations, as there are so

                 many in my district?  What about women who

                 work in schools where there is a religious

                 affiliation?

                            So now, with this legislation, not

                 only do we, as under our current law, allow

                 for religious-affiliated health providers to

                 opt out of providing reproductive health

                 services to women -- we already allow that.

                 They are, however, supposed to have some sort

                 of a carve-out so that for those services that

                 they don't provide, they are to refer women to





                                                          193



                 other services.  Whether or not they do is an

                 argument and a question, but that is what we

                 provide for now.

                            So with this legislation, we're now

                 carrying that one step further.  We are saying

                 not only do you not have to provide services,

                 reproductive health services to women, but you

                 are now allowed to not cover, under your

                 health benefits program, reproductive health

                 services to women that you employ.  So we're

                 talking about thousands and thousands of women

                 across the state.

                            And especially in my district,

                 where there are hospitals that are religiously

                 affiliated and where there are HMOs that are

                 religiously affiliated.  And as you know, all

                 Medicaid constituents, all Medicaid

                 recipients, must be affiliated with an HMO.

                 And many of them are affiliated with a

                 religiously based HMO.  So that, obviously,

                 those women will not be covered.  And that's

                 obviously a problem.

                            Now, the question of prevention -

                 which Senator Goodman raised, and I certainly

                 agree, and Senator Bonacic raised -- HIV and





                                                          194



                 AIDS is a particular issue and problem because

                 it is people of color in this state,

                 especially women of color, who are now

                 suffering the largest percent of increase in

                 active AIDS cases and HIV infection.  And we

                 know that contraceptive devices protect those

                 women or will help to protect and will help to

                 prevent that spread of HIV infection.

                            So once again, the women who need

                 it most, the women who are most vulnerable,

                 the women who are not able to go out and

                 access private care, the women who don't work

                 in corporate situations or who don't work in

                 government where we're all covered, those

                 women who work in their communities in those

                 programs, those developmental programs, those

                 little group homes, those social services

                 programs that are sponsored by religiously

                 based institutions will not be covered under

                 this bill.

                            So this is really a very major

                 percent of the constituents in my district,

                 and I daresay in a number of our districts.

                 But then these women are not going to be

                 speaking to us because they won't even know





                                                          195



                 that we have essentially eliminated them by

                 virtue of this legislation.

                            So while I applaud the intent of

                 it, I must vote against it because this really

                 does not -- does not -- provide full and

                 complete access to every woman in our state

                 equally.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Oppenheimer.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.  I was going to ask a question

                 of Senator Bonacic when he was speaking

                 earlier.  And he seems to be involved at the

                 moment.

                            If Senator Bonacic would yield for

                 a question.  But he's not -- he doesn't have

                 the floor.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    He

                 doesn't have the floor, Senator.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Okay, let

                 me just state what my concern was.

                            The bill seems to be addressing the

                 issue of women age 40 to 49 so that they would

                 now be able to access mammogram screenings.





                                                          196



                 However, as I read the law currently in place

                 now, women are able to access a mammogram

                 every other year presently and, if their

                 doctor prescribes, they are able to access it

                 on even a more frequent basis.

                            So I fail to understand and wanted

                 an explanation of how this new bill would

                 increase the access to those very vulnerable

                 women age 40 to 49 that we are hoping to give

                 additional protection to.  It doesn't look

                 like it's additional, it might even be a

                 subtraction of what they currently have.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Stavisky.

                            SENATOR STAVISKY:    Mr. President,

                 following up on what Senator Oppenheimer is

                 asking, I wonder if there is somebody from the

                 task force who could answer a question.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Give me

                 just a second, Senator.

                            Well, who are you asking to yield?

                 Because the -

                            SENATOR STAVISKY:    I'm simply

                 asking the sponsor to answer a question, a

                 very specific question.





                                                          197



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    State

                 the question, Senator.

                            SENATOR STAVISKY:    My question

                 is, on page 3 of the bill -- and this

                 essentially is what Senator Oppenheimer was

                 asking -- on lines 5 through 8, it says -

                 currently the law says a mammogram every two

                 years, or more frequently upon the

                 recommendation of a physician.  And they add

                 the language "a mammogram every year, or at

                 such other interval as the physician may

                 recommend, for covered persons age 40 to 49."

                            The question is, by adding the

                 phrase "a mammogram every year or at other

                 such interval," you're repeating what is in

                 the previous clause, which says "every two

                 years or more frequently."  It's the same

                 language.  That's really, Mr. President, my

                 question.  Or isn't it the same language?  In

                 other words, you're saying apples and oranges

                 and oranges and apples.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    No, I'm told by

                 people who have worked on this very directly,

                 Mr. President, that it broadens the

                 physician's ability to relate.  And once it's





                                                          198



                 broadened, then it is in law and stays there.

                            So it just broadens for every year

                 their ability to get that screening.  So it's

                 more coverage.

                            SENATOR STAVISKY:    It already

                 says every two years, Mr. President.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Well, it's more

                 coverage.

                            SENATOR STAVISKY:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            SENATOR BRUNO:    And if a

                 physician says that it's required more

                 frequently than one year, based on that

                 particular individual's history, then that

                 would be the case and it will be mandated in

                 terms of coverage.

                            So it truly broadens the coverage

                 for women.  Thank you.

                            SENATOR STAVISKY:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Seward.

                            SENATOR SEWARD:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            I think we in this chamber can take





                                                          199



                 pride in the fact that we have a long history

                 of supporting and promoting policies and

                 statutes and budget items that have promoted

                 supported women's health and wellness over the

                 years.  That's a longstanding Senate position.

                            But admittedly, there are gaps in

                 the law.  And this legislation before us fills

                 those gaps by providing additional

                 opportunities for mammography and cervical

                 cancer screening, bone density tests for the

                 early detection of osteoporosis, as well as

                 the doctor-prescribed prescriptions.

                            Will more women have access to

                 these treatments and services as a result of

                 this legislation?  The answer is unequivocally

                 yes.  And for that reason, I want to join in

                 honoring and thanking, number one, our leader,

                 Senator Bruno, as well as Senators Bonacic and

                 Rath and all the members of the task force who

                 have worked very, very hard to put a package

                 together to fill those gaps that currently

                 exists in the law and to provide these

                 much-needed services to more women in New York

                 State.

                            And particularly, I think it's





                                                          200



                 important that the early detection of

                 diseases, which is the main thrust of this

                 legislation, this early detection of diseases

                 that affect women can only save lives.  And

                 not only that, but also spare them the very

                 intrusive and, yes, expensive procedures that

                 would be required to treat diseases that are

                 more advanced, whether that be cancer or any

                 other disease.

                            So this type of legislation, in my

                 mind, is very forward looking and forward

                 thinking, that not only protects women's

                 health but also encourages a healthier society

                 in general.

                            You know, there has been quite a

                 bit of discussion here today about the cost

                 factor and the deductible and copays and the

                 general cost factor in general.  And

                 certainly, as chair of the Insurance

                 Committee, we need to wrestle with this issue.

                 Because as health insurance premiums rise, the

                 number of uninsured, the number of people who

                 drop out of the insurance market, also rises.

                 So it's very much a balancing act here that we

                 have to deal with.





                                                          201



                            And I must say, after a lot of

                 discussion with medical professionals and

                 examining the medical and scientific data

                 affecting the treatments and diseases that

                 this legislation deals with, as well as

                 conversations with both providers and payers,

                 I can say unequivocally that this bill

                 provides very, very important health care

                 services to more people but also does so in a

                 cost-effective manner.

                            And we estimate that with all the

                 coverage that is listed in this legislation,

                 that any increase in cost would be very

                 minimal.  As well as the fact that the bill

                 covers this issue by calling for a study of

                 the health benefits and the costs, so that the

                 long-term savings can be quantified because of

                 the early detection of these diseases.

                            The long and short of it is when

                 you come to talk about copays and deductibles,

                 there's absolutely no evidence that I'm aware

                 of that copays or deductibles form a barrier

                 to having the benefit of these services now.

                 Or any other services, for that matter.  And

                 for those women who honestly cannot afford the





                                                          202



                 benefit of these screenings and these types of

                 services, we in New York have the Healthy

                 Women's Partnership in place, which has done

                 an outstanding work over the years of

                 providing early detection and screening for

                 those low-income women who honestly cannot

                 afford these services.

                            So we're well-covered in this area.

                 And I rise in support of this legislation

                 because it's going to provide additional

                 services to more women, foster a healthier New

                 York.  A lot of benefits under this

                 legislation.

                            And again, I want to congratulate

                 the task force for its fine work.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 16.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 January.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery, to explain her vote.





                                                          203



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, Mr.

                 President, to explain my vote.

                            I'm going to vote no on this.  And

                 I know that someone is going to go out and do

                 an editorial and say that I voted against

                 health services for women.  But let me just

                 say why I'm voting against this.  This is

                 worse than half a loaf for many women in this

                 state.  And for the majority of women in my

                 district, this is not even a half a loaf.

                 This does not cover them for the most

                 important aspect of their health care.  We

                 cannot separate the reproductive aspect of a

                 women's body and health from everything else.

                 They all go together.  We must cover them all.

                            And for those institutions that

                 don't want to, because of their religious

                 tenets or whatever other reasons, they should

                 not -- if we are covering health services with

                 our public health dollars, we should not allow

                 those institutions to deny health services to

                 women in our state.

                            So that's why I'm voting no.  And I

                 hope that that rationale and that reason is

                 clear to everyone who is interested and





                                                          204



                 listening.

                            Thank you.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Montgomery will be recorded in the negative.

                            Senator Oppenheimer, you had your

                 hand up.  Did you want to explain your vote?

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    No.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.

                            I concur very, very strongly with

                 what Senator Montgomery just said.  I think

                 that there are times when leaving out a large

                 group of people makes a piece of legislation

                 unacceptable.

                            And I don't want to take anything

                 away from the fine provisions in this bill

                 that correspond to the Bonacic bill and the

                 bill passed by the Assembly.  But if I can

                 make an analogy, the hundreds of thousands of

                 women who work for private corporations,

                 insurance companies that can deny this because

                 of some purported affiliation, to deny them

                 contraceptive coverage is to disrespect the





                                                          205



                 consciences of those women.  It is their

                 conscience that should be respected.

                            And this effort to put forward a

                 bill that leaves out hundreds of thousands of

                 women in my mind is analogous to the hate

                 crimes bills introduced in this house years

                 ago that left out victims of bias-related

                 violence because of sexual orientation.  It's

                 not okay to leave people out on something this

                 important.  And those bills didn't pass, and

                 this bill won't pass until this issue is dealt

                 with.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Schneiderman will be recorded in the negative.

                            Announce the results.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar Number 38 are

                 Senators Breslin, Connor, Dollinger, Duane,

                 Hassell-Thompson, Montgomery, Oppenheimer,

                 Paterson, Santiago, Schneiderman, A. Smith and

                 Stavisky.  Ayes, 48.  Nays, 12.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Bruno.





                                                          206



                            SENATOR BRUNO:    Mr. President,

                 can we at this time take up Calendar Number

                 39.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read Calendar Number 39.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 39, by Senator LaValle, Senate Print 1265, an

                 act to amend the Insurance Law, in relation to

                 coverage for diagnosis testing.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Explanation,

                 please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, an explanation has been requested of

                 Calendar 39.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            First let me start off by

                 acknowledging the leadership of our Majority

                 Leader, Senator Bruno, in advocating and being

                 a strong advocate for additional health care

                 for the citizens of our state; on the last

                 bill, for creating the task force and the

                 terrific work by Senator Rath and Senator

                 Bonacic.

                            Last year we debated this bill that





                                                          207



                 is before us.  And I am going to go through

                 the bill once again, as I did last year.  This

                 bill is before us because of one of the ways

                 that society has changed.  And that is that

                 couples are get married later and are starting

                 their families later in life.  Because of

                 that, we have one in every six couples that

                 are infertile and are having problems

                 reproducing.

                            This problem affects 6.1 million

                 Americans in our country.  It has become such

                 a problem that assisted reproduction therapy

                 has become a specialty and there are programs

                 in most populated areas of our state and

                 country.

                            Before I talk about some of the

                 provisions in the bill, in developing this

                 bill, we tried to do a very careful balancing

                 act.  Senator Bruno addressed some of the

                 problems in trying to provide additional

                 services:  If you're not cautious, you will

                 drive up the cost and the number of uninsured

                 individuals seeking health coverage.

                            As a matter of public policy, this

                 Legislature has been very aggressive in trying





                                                          208



                 to provide more health coverage for more of

                 our citizens -- Family Health Plus, EPIC Plus,

                 Child Plus, and on and on -- in what we have

                 done.  And so here we have tried to provide

                 for those couples that are having a problem,

                 to ensure that their health coverage provides

                 for the diagnosis and treatment of medical

                 conditions that would result in infertility.

                            In doing that, we provide the

                 following.  We establish a $60,000 lifetime

                 limit on benefits.  Prescription drugs are not

                 subject to the lifetime cap.  The individual

                 must be insured for a period of 12 months

                 before accessing their infertility coverage.

                            Infertility would be determined in

                 accordance with ACOG standards.  Those

                 standards basically are that the couple have

                 been infertile for a period of 12 months.  If

                 they are age 35 or older, that period is a

                 six-month period.

                            The coverage is provided for

                 individuals ages 25 to 44.  That age category

                 tracks statistically where people are

                 beginning to have problems.  Women are the

                 most fertile between ages 18 to into their





                                                          209



                 20s, and then statistically you begin to see

                 problems arising between ages 25 to 44.

                            Prescription drugs for infertility

                 are covered only if the insurer's policy

                 covers the prescription drugs.  Coverage is

                 subject to annual copayments and insurance and

                 deductibles as is deemed appropriate by the

                 superintendent.

                            Senator Bruno and Senator Hannon I

                 think addressed those issues in the last

                 debate and the importance, once again, in

                 dealing with cost factors and in making sure

                 that we are instituting a public policy that

                 is not going to have an adverse effect by

                 putting more people into the uninsured pool.

                            The coverage is provided for four

                 embryo transfer procedures.  However, if there

                 is a live birth, then only two more embryo

                 transfer procedures that would be covered.

                 This does not cover reversal of sterilization,

                 reversal of sex change operations, cloning, or

                 sperm retrieval from deceased individuals.

                 And the deceased individuals, there's an

                 exception:  unless there had been some prior

                 intent by the deceased individual.





                                                          210



                            Lastly, the much talked about and

                 discussed conscience clause.  First let me

                 start by saying this.  Senator Bruno talked

                 about, and under his leadership it has been a

                 hallmark that bills that this house, this

                 Majority have talked about, he has asked that

                 we do everything possible to negotiate to

                 bring about a result so that that legislation

                 can become law.

                            Last year, I had indicated on this

                 bill that there were two versions, there was

                 an A version and a B version.  We negotiated

                 with all of the interested parties to bring

                 the bill that we did last year before this

                 house.  After its passage in the Senate, we

                 went to the Assembly and we offered numerous

                 ideas for change to improve the bill to bring

                 about a result that would have both houses

                 passing the bill.

                            My counsel has indicated to me that

                 on the conscience clause, having the

                 stakeholders at the table talking about

                 various ideas, we offered probably 10 to 12

                 various ideas to bring about a comfort level

                 on the part of the stakeholders, yet not





                                                          211



                 dissolving important principles that they may

                 have had.  The stakeholders were willing to

                 move forward.  The Assembly, for whatever

                 reason, in the year 2000 -- and I would hope

                 in the year 2001 that they would change their

                 mind -- just said no to a conscience clause.

                            Now, there's been a lot of

                 discussion and there have been conscience

                 clauses, religious exemptions in a number of

                 areas both in the Education Law and in the

                 Health Law that we have made for various

                 religious groups, honoring their religious

                 intent.  There are numerous states that have

                 enacted conscience clauses in dealing with the

                 matter before us -- California being one,

                 Texas.  There are two or three others that

                 have enacted this.  At a federal level,

                 dealing with contraceptive devices, the

                 Congress has enacted a conscience clause

                 dealing with that matter.

                            So this is not something that is

                 new.  The IRS code and the definition of what

                 a religious organization is puts very tight

                 parameters as to who we are talking about.

                 Senator Hannon was very specific when he





                                                          212



                 talked about Fidelis.  Fidelis is the Catholic

                 HMO that has been doing business for a

                 considerable period of time and, as Senator

                 Hannon said, providing health coverage for

                 citizens of this state when no one else would

                 and dealing with individuals who were not

                 wealthy enough to have health coverage.

                            So I believe this issue of a

                 conscience clause can be worked out, should

                 not be a deterrent in passing either the bill

                 that was debated prior to this or this bill.

                 It should not be politicized.  There are

                 individuals who need health coverage, and we

                 should not compromise that at any juncture.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Duane.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.  I have an amendment at the desk

                 and I'd like to call it up and waive its

                 reading.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 amendment is at the desk, the reading is

                 waived, and you are recognized for an

                 explanation.





                                                          213



                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you very

                 much, Mr. President.

                            The amendment that I'm putting

                 forward mirrors the Assembly legislation on

                 this issue of infertility.  And just briefly,

                 some of the areas that differ include that

                 persons having an individual policy would be

                 covered.  The issue of what specific

                 treatments would be permitted under the

                 legislation is not restricted in the version

                 which I've presented to the desk.

                            And also the amendment which I have

                 at the desk would not expire.  It would be

                 something which would remain in effect and we

                 wouldn't have to come back here and debate

                 this issue again and again through the years.

                            I share concerns, though, in a

                 slightly different way on the issue of the

                 religious exemptions.  And I think that while

                 there are some good things about this

                 legislation, it really could be a vastly

                 improved piece of legislation.  And I believe

                 that my amendment would make this a bill which

                 would be better for those couples and families

                 and people in the state of New York who are





                                                          214



                 having trouble conceiving children.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 question is on the amendment.  All those in

                 favor signify by saying aye.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Party vote

                 with exceptions.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Party vote in

                 the negative.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Will the

                 exceptions to the party vote raise your hands,

                 please, so the Secretary can get you.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 21.  Nays,

                 39.  Party vote with exceptions.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 amendment is defeated.

                            Senator Duane.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.  On the bill, would the sponsor

                 yield for some questions.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.





                                                          215



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you very

                 much.

                            It appears that the bill does not

                 extend coverage to individual policies.  I was

                 hoping the sponsor could tell us why

                 individual policyholders are excluded from the

                 legislation.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    This bill

                 applies to group policies only, as you have

                 indicated.  It does not -- it allows

                 individuals to negotiate whatever terms that

                 they want or don't want with a health

                 provider.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you.

                            Through you, Mr. President, if the

                 sponsor would continue to yield.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes, I will.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    There's a section

                 of the bill that refers to a reasonable





                                                          216



                 expectation that treatment will result in a

                 healthy child, as determined by guidelines

                 established by the American College of

                 Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the

                 American Society for Reproductive Medicine.

                            My understanding is that there are

                 no such guidelines put forward by the American

                 College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

                 I'm wondering if the sponsor could explain to

                 us where he got the idea that there were such

                 guidelines in existence.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    I'm glad you

                 raised this question, Senator Duane, because

                 this is an issue that very specifically is

                 between the patient and their physician.  The

                 physician then evaluates that circumstance

                 based on the individual's age and any other

                 medical condition that that individual would

                 have.

                            I would note that, statistically,

                 people who have assisted reproductive

                 therapies do not have any higher incidence of

                 children that might have birth defects.  So

                 studies that have been done show a similarity

                 between those who have assisted therapies and





                                                          217



                 those that have normal childbirth.

                            But the decision -- specifically to

                 your question is that decision is made between

                 the physician and the patient, and it could

                 vary from individual to individual based on

                 the circumstances that the physician evaluates

                 and the will of the patient to maybe move

                 ahead with some chance.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President, if the sponsor would continue to

                 yield.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you.

                            I accept what the sponsor has just

                 said as something which could have been said

                 in the legislation, but it doesn't say that.

                 It says "as determined by guidelines

                 established by the American College of

                 Obstetricians and Gynecologists."  And the

                 American College of Obstetricians and

                 Gynecologists actually objects to that





                                                          218



                 language, because it has no such guidelines.

                            So I'm wondering why the sponsor

                 did decide to use that language even though no

                 such guidelines exist and, further, why it is

                 that he didn't put in that this is a decision

                 which could be made between the patient and

                 the family and their gynecologist.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Senator Duane,

                 I am told that the American Society for

                 Reproductive Medicine does have guidelines,

                 does have guidelines.

                            I think you have been looking -

                 basically looked at the American College of

                 Obstetricians and Gynecologists, ACOG.  They

                 do not have standards.  But the American

                 Society for Reproductive Medicine, I am told

                 that they do have standards.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Through you, Mr.

                 President, if the sponsor would continue to

                 yield.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Senator yields.





                                                          219



                            SENATOR DUANE:    If that is the

                 case, then I've never seen the American

                 Society for Reproductive Medicine guidelines,

                 and I think we'd all like to see that.  And I

                 have no knowledge that they don't exist.

                            But at the very least, then,

                 wouldn't it be a good idea to take out the

                 reference to the American College of

                 Obstetricians and Gynecologists?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    That's

                 something we'll look at, Senator.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you.

                            And if the sponsor would continue

                 to yield, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle -

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    I'm also very

                 concerned about the language that says a

                 reasonable expectation that the treatment will

                 result in a healthy child.  I'm wondering if

                 the sponsor could provide a definition of what

                 a healthy child is.





                                                          220



                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Senator, I just

                 addressed that.  I think there are standards.

                 I think that is something difficult to define.

                 I mean, there are certainly definable problems

                 that a child may have on birth, but we may

                 disagree as to some things that I might not

                 think of a child as being unhealthy and you

                 may disagree with that.

                            But once again, I mean I think I

                 talked about the comparison in terms of the

                 assisted reproductive therapies, someone using

                 that, and what is within the medical community

                 defined as being unhealthy, and compare that

                 to individuals that just have a normal

                 childbirth where there may be some sort of a

                 problem, a heart problem, some sort of

                 deformity.  Those are the kinds of things that

                 I think we can agree on that would be

                 unhealthy, the child being born unhealthy.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    On the bill, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Duane, on the bill.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you.

                            I am very concerned about that last





                                                          221



                 point.  I think that a child who is born under

                 a definition of unhealthy might in fact grow

                 up to have a wonderful life.

                            But aside from the sort of human

                 aspect of that, or maybe it's really a

                 spiritual aspect of that, I also would have

                 concerns about litigation which could result

                 without a better standard of what is and isn't

                 healthy.  I think that that's been left too

                 vague in the bill.

                            I described some of my other issues

                 with the legislation when I offered my

                 amendment.  But I do want to say that for

                 those reasons, and the reasons which I've just

                 discussed, I'll be voting no on this.

                            Thank you, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Will the

                 sponsor yield to just a couple of questions,

                 please.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you yield to a couple of

                 questions?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.





                                                          222



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Senator, just

                 a couple of technical questions on the bill.

                            One is the $60,000 lifetime limit

                 that's contained in the bill.  Through you,

                 Mr. President, does that include the cost of

                 delivery of the child if there are

                 complications in the delivery of the child?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    That deals just

                 with the reproductive services, the assisted

                 reproductive therapies.  But not in the -

                 because that would be covered, Senator, under

                 the normal -

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, excuse me a second.

                            Can we have some order in the

                 chamber.  We're conducting a debate.  If you

                 have a conversation, take it outside.

                            I'm sorry, Senator LaValle.  Please

                 continue.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    That would be

                 covered under the normal provisions of the

                 health care contract, delivery of services,

                 delivery services.  Here we are talking about





                                                          223



                 the additional coverage, the diagnosis and

                 treatment of medical conditions which result

                 in infertility.  That's the piece that we're

                 debating here.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Again through

                 you, Mr. President, if Senator LaValle will

                 yield to a question.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes, I will.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Senator yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    As I think

                 you know, Senator, in some cases the cause of

                 infertility can be anatomical, in the sense of

                 intrauterine problems with a woman, for

                 example.  And my question is, would it be

                 anticipated that the $60,000 limit would

                 include surgery to deal with intrauterine

                 problems of the potential mother?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    As I recall,

                 that would fall under definition of the

                 problems leading to infertility.  It would

                 not -- what your -- the question you're asking

                 me is that endometriosis -

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Right.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Okay, that's





                                                          224



                 the most common.  That would fall outside of

                 this coverage, outside of the $60,000.  Would

                 not include.

                            I mean, some of the things that

                 would include -- that are included in this

                 are -- we always think of the more exotic, of

                 the embryo transfers.  But there are things -

                 there are hormone therapies that would be

                 included in the infertility portion of the

                 bill, or various medications.  It would

                 include surgical procedures to correct a

                 physical blockage or structural problem in the

                 reproductive organs.  Intrauterine

                 insemination.

                            Those are the kinds of things that

                 we're talking about within that $60,000

                 coverage, as well as the in vitro provisions

                 that are at the more exotic level.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Again through

                 you, Mr. President, just a clarification for

                 Senator LaValle's comments.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The





                                                          225



                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    That section

                 that you just read that talked about surgical

                 interventions and others, is that in the bill?

                 Or is that -

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    No.  I mean,

                 it's not lined out.  But these are some of the

                 procedures and some of the things that are

                 done.  We don't micromanage all -- I mean, you

                 would have to list all sorts of medications

                 and various treatments.

                            I think the point that you're

                 trying to get at, and I think within current

                 law, Senator, is that if it is a correctable

                 medical condition, then it doesn't fall under

                 this legislation.  It falls under current law.

                            And those are some of the things

                 that I think you have in your mind as to

                 repairs that may be needed or a certain

                 blockage or certain problems.  And that would

                 be covered under current law.  A person not

                 having this kind of coverage would be able to

                 have those kinds of things.

                            And indeed, people that have

                 problems, they begin at the very basic level





                                                          226



                 looking at things that are correctable

                 medically before we get into the whole arena

                 of infertility or the reproductive treatment

                 programs.  Some that I mentioned in terms of

                 hormone treatments and insemination, and then

                 to the more exotic of the embryo transfers and

                 so forth.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Again through

                 you, Mr. President, if Senator LaValle will

                 yield -

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, will you yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.  Yes, I

                 will.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    And I'll

                 explain what I was driving at -

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Hold it.

                 Hold it.  Hold it.

                            Senator LaValle, do you continue to

                 yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes, I would.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.  Through you.





                                                          227



                            The reason why I asked the question

                 is because I wanted to get an understanding of

                 why you chose $60,000.  What's the magic with

                 that number, if any?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Well, Senator,

                 like a lot of things, we sat down with the

                 various stakeholders that were interested in

                 this.  And as I said at the very onset, we

                 wanted to create a balance between

                 affordability and being able to provide

                 services to people.

                            And so based on the experience of

                 individuals -- you know, we sat down with

                 people who represent the American Infertility

                 Association and we talked about what is a

                 typical experience, and you try and quantify

                 that.  And I think probably the high amount

                 was, as I recall, you know, someone put on the

                 table $100,000.  And someone else put $40,000.

                            And we looked at realistically what

                 a normal couple would encounter, and that

                 would be $60,000.  And that would include,

                 Senator, the four embryo transfers, which are

                 the most expensive parts of the -- of what a

                 couple would incur.  That's the most expensive





                                                          228



                 portion of the infertility process or the

                 assisted reproductive therapy process.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Again through

                 you, Mr. President, if the sponsor will

                 continue to yield.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    My next

                 question is, whose lifetime is counted?  Is

                 that the lifetime of the couple or the

                 lifetime of each of the individuals?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    That's a very

                 good question, Senator.  Because I myself

                 asked that very question, so I know the

                 answer.

                            It covers both the male and the

                 female in those age categories, between 25 and

                 44.  One of the things that I did not mention

                 in this debate, that 40 percent of the

                 problems are related to the female, 40 percent

                 of the problems are related to the male, and

                 the other 20 percent are either unknown or

                 it's a combination of the two.

                            So, I mean, it's a very good





                                                          229



                 question to say a male at 25, where there is

                 some sort of problem, is he covered at age 25.

                 And the answer is yes.  And if the female is

                 age 25, she would be covered as well.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    So again

                 through you, Mr. President, just for

                 clarification, the number for a couple then is

                 really $120,000?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    No.  No.  No.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Well, again,

                 through you, Mr. President, if the sponsor

                 will continue to yield.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    So just so I

                 understand it, it would be $60,000 for the

                 male and it could be $60,000 for -

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    No, no.  I'm

                 sorry, I misunderstood.  I thought you were

                 talking about the age.  It's $60,000 per

                 couple.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Okay.  But





                                                          230



                 again through you, Mr. President, that's

                 nowhere expressed in the bill, though.  It

                 doesn't actually say it.  It says a lifetime

                 limit.  It doesn't say for a couple.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    It would be

                 $60,000 in the lifetime of that policyholder

                 within those age limitations that we talked

                 about and the number of procedures that we

                 talk about in the bill, a limitation on the

                 four embryo transfers or, if there is a birth,

                 then two transfers after that.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    And again

                 through you, Mr. President, if the sponsor

                 will continue to yield.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    I'm just

                 trying to be careful here because we don't

                 really describe this couple relationship, we

                 talk about lifetime.  And I simply want to try

                 to give someone somewhere some guidance as to

                 whether it would mean $60,000 worth of

                 infertility treatments for each of the

                 individuals in the marriage or $60,000 total

                 for the couple.  That could be a significant

                 additional cost in the bill.





                                                          231



                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Senator, I

                 think where we're getting confused -- and I

                 had indicated this before -- it's tied to the

                 individual policy that the individual has.  So

                 it is going back to if the male happened to

                 have an individual policy, that policy would

                 limit it to $60,000.  If the female happened

                 to have her own policy, that policy limit

                 would also be $60,000.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    If I can just

                 interrupt for a minute, there will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Veterans Committee in

                 the Majority Conference Room.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

                 Immediate meeting of the Veterans Committee in

                 the Majority Conference Room.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Through you,

                 Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    I have one

                 more question on this topic, if Senator

                 LaValle will continue to yield.





                                                          232



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Senator

                 LaValle, the point of my questions was

                 because, as you have stated, 40 percent of the

                 problem can be female and 40 percent of it can

                 be male, and I think we needed to decide

                 whether this was a $60,000 limit for the male

                 and the female combined or, as I now

                 understand it, if they both had separate

                 policies -- one worked for a school district,

                 one worked for a private employer, they both

                 had coverage -- they'd have $60,000 each under

                 that, because they're covered by separate

                 policies.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    By those

                 policies, yes.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Okay.  And my

                 question is, through you, Mr. President, with

                 Senator LaValle's concurrence, isn't the big

                 cost involved in the drug therapy?  And

                 therefore isn't the unlimited cost that's





                                                          233



                 contained in the second part of that

                 paragraph, which says that the $60,000

                 limitation shall not apply to prescription

                 drugs related to the infertility?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Assuming that

                 the coverage that the individual has has

                 prescription drug coverage, the prescription

                 drug coverage is outside of the $60,000

                 limitation.

                            The limitation, Senator, so that

                 you see the thought process that we went

                 through, is really in the first -- you go

                 through some of the treatments that I talked

                 about initially, hormone treatments would

                 be -- insemination treatments.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Right.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    And even before

                 you got to that, you would look at some of the

                 correctable medical treatments or problems

                 that the individual could have.  Even before

                 you get to the hormone treatments and

                 insemination.

                            Once you have gone through that

                 tier of treatments, then you go into the more

                 exotic, the embryo transfers.  Those





                                                          234



                 treatments are very costly.  And that's why

                 there was some limitation, because you can

                 well understand the frustration of the

                 couples, and a couple may want to go on and on

                 and on and have six or eight of these

                 treatments, and that in and of itself could

                 eat up the entire -- the amount that we have,

                 of $60,000, can eat it up.

                            So there had to be some boundaries

                 put around the number of treatments for the

                 embryo transfers.  And medical practice,

                 however, starts well before you get to embryo

                 transfers.  It starts with less costly things,

                 drugs and medication that have a success rate,

                 and so forth, before you get to the more

                 costly and more exotic treatments.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    One final

                 question, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 LaValle, do you yield for a final question?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Senator

                 LaValle, once you get to that complicated and





                                                          235



                 very costly procedure, the embryo transfer or

                 other -- I think the tendency would be to use

                 the word "exotic," but that's the wrong word.

                 Unusual, let's say -- treatments at the final

                 stages of trying to resolve a fertility

                 problem, could you just tell me what the

                 success rate is and the science is in those

                 treatments at the final stages of attempting

                 to deal with infertility?  Just tell me what

                 the success rate is and how -- I mean, you've

                 described it as very expensive.  My

                 understanding is they're very expensive.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.  Yes.

                 First of all, when we're talking about the in

                 vitro fertilization, only 5 to 10 percent of

                 the patients actually need that, go to that

                 level.

                            And what was your -- the result,

                 the success rate?

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    My question,

                 through you, Mr. President, if Senator LaValle

                 will yield -

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    I have that

                 someplace.  Let's see.  Okay.  According to

                 the latest statistics, the success rate for





                                                          236



                 live birth per egg retrieval or IVF is

                 27.7 percent.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    And that's

                 the -

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    And then they

                 have, you know, other statistics here.  The

                 success rate is higher than the 20 percent

                 chance that a healthy reproductively normal

                 couple has of achieving a pregnancy that

                 results in a live-born baby in any given

                 month.

                            So as I said, we're talking success

                 rate.  And the last treatments are in the

                 neighborhood of -- and there are various kinds

                 of treatments.  We just talked about the in

                 vitro fertilization.  But the other treatments

                 as well are 27 -- the highest would be

                 29.8 percent.  So you're talking about under

                 30 percent.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Right.

                            Through you, Mr. President, just

                 one follow-up question, if Senator LaValle

                 will yield.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    A

                 follow-up to the final question, Senator





                                                          237



                 LaValle.  Will you yield?

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    Yes.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    The reason

                 why there's a follow-up, because in essence if

                 your bill provides for four of these types of

                 treatments and the success rate is 27 percent,

                 in almost every case, since that's the

                 average, in order to have one live birth you'd

                 have to go through all four treatments.

                 Because the success rate is only a quarter -

                 only a quarter of the attempts actually

                 succeed.  So under those circumstances, on the

                 average -- and again -

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    But, Senator,

                 just recall one other thing.  And that's why I

                 mentioned this.  Only 5 to 10 percent of the

                 couples ever reach that level.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    But through

                 you, Mr. President, under this bill we're

                 giving them access to that final set of

                 treatments, which are, as you've described

                 them, very costly, which have a success rate

                 of about 27 percent, and we're allowing them

                 to have four of those procedures.  And I

                 understand that we're not talking about a big





                                                          238



                 number.  But we're talking about a large

                 investment in time, money, procedures.

                            And I understand, this is done with

                 the perhaps lifelong desire of the couple

                 involved in having a child.  But we're

                 spending the most, the biggest share of our

                 money on a procedure that three out of four

                 times will not succeed under the most

                 favorable assumption.

                            SENATOR LAVALLE:    We are also

                 assuming, you know, the rate of technology and

                 how this infertility field, medical field is

                 growing, that statistically those numbers, you

                 know, will improve.

                            Senator, what this bill does is it

                 gives people who have no hope a great hope.

                 And this is a -- the treatment process -- and

                 I've spoken to many of the people who have

                 gone through these frustrations -- is a very

                 tiered process that begins with looking at

                 things that would be covered in their medical

                 insurance policies today because it could be

                 surgically corrected.  Then we go to the other

                 levels; again, I repeat, you know, through

                 drug treatments and hormone treatments.  And





                                                          239



                 between those two, we are covering 90 to 95

                 percent of the people and allowing them to

                 receive a positive result.

                            So I know that you focused in on

                 this 5 to 10 percent.  But I think that even

                 there that a 30 percent success rate isn't too

                 bad.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Mr.

                 President, I thank Senator LaValle for, as is

                 his practice, an enlightening and

                 compassionate view of the difficult and

                 complicated question that this bill poses.

                            But I think, Senator LaValle, I

                 disagree with you when we get to the -

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator,

                 Are you on the bill now?

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Yes, please,

                 Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger, on the bill.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    I disagree

                 with you when we get to the final step.

                            What I heard you say is that

                 95 percent of the people who deal with the

                 problem of infertility currently, now, have





                                                          240



                 most of their difficulties in conceiving

                 children covered by our current coverage,

                 whether it's surgical interventions or drug

                 therapies.  Assuming that their policies have

                 coverage, they would get some benefit to try

                 to deal with the problem of infertility.

                            But what that bill does is this

                 bill says that of that 5 percent who need

                 other treatments, in vitro or otherwise,

                 there's going to be an enormous resource of

                 the insurance pool of funds committed to a

                 small portion of those who deal with the

                 problem of infertility and, in dealing with

                 that, it's going to be very very costly to

                 deal with.

                            Senator LaValle, I think if you

                 look at your numbers, you're going to find

                 that on the average, every person will need to

                 have the four treatments, because it only

                 works in 27 percent of the time.  So in order

                 for one couple to have one child, on the

                 average there would have to be four attempted

                 in vitro fertilizations in order for it to

                 occur.

                            Mr. President, we dealt with a bill





                                                          241



                 that dealt with another mandate earlier today.

                 This bill is an enormously costly mandate that

                 may reduce the available insurance funds that

                 would otherwise put money into surgical and

                 hormonal procedures that would eliminate the

                 problem of infertility for a vast majority of

                 New Yorkers.

                            I think that in analyzing a mandate

                 you have to look at the science, the extent of

                 the people who are unprotected, and the cost.

                 And it's my view that this mandate falls short

                 on all three counts.

                            The science is somewhat

                 speculative.  Compassionate, Senator LaValle,

                 I agree.  But the science of one in four of an

                 opportunity for even a small population is a

                 very -- at a very substantial cost, I think

                 when you use that kind of a test of the number

                 of people affected, the science involved and

                 the success of the science, and the cost, this

                 mandate does not work.

                            I'll vote in the negative, Mr.

                 President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Lachman.





                                                          242



                            SENATOR LACHMAN:    Yes.  On the

                 bill, Mr. President.

                            In her book Recreating Motherhood:

                 Ideology and Technology in a Patriarchal

                 Society, Barbara Katz Rothman, who is a

                 professor of sociology at Baruch College and

                 the Graduate Center of the City University of

                 New York, has written:  "The treatment of

                 infertility needs to be recognized as an issue

                 of self-determination.  It is as important a

                 an issue for women as access to contraception

                 and freedom from forced sterilization."

                            And I owe the book and the quote to

                 my wife, Dr. Susan Lachman, who is also a

                 sociologist.

                            But I must tell the members of this

                 chamber, through you, Mr. President, that I am

                 as equally concerned, if not more concerned,

                 about this issue in a broader sense.  My

                 colleagues were discussing the specificity of

                 the issue.  I'm concerned what this issue

                 means to American society.

                            A few years ago, Gertrude

                 Himmelfarb wrote a book -- she's one of

                 America's great historians -- and the book was





                                                          243



                 called One Nation, Two Societies.  And she

                 spoke about the United States being divided,

                 and the division was a social divide.  And

                 unfortunately, whether we are Democrats or

                 Republicans, we witnessed this social divide

                 during the recent presidential election.

                            But I'm concerned that this bill

                 could create another divide.  It is not

                 difficult for the wealthy to pay $7,000,

                 $8,000, or $10,000 for the necessary

                 medication or procedure that is important to

                 eliminate infertility.  But the poor people of

                 this land, this great land, cannot afford to

                 pay that amount of money.

                            This, Mr. President, creates a

                 greater divide, of the poor against the

                 well-to-do, poverty against the wealthy,

                 unless this chamber and unless the Assembly

                 create a bill, a compromise bill that has a

                 stand to passage.

                            16 percent of Americans cannot

                 conceive.  Many of them will be able to

                 conceive with the new technology and

                 medications that we have, but they cannot use

                 this unless they are insured.  These people





                                                          244



                 have chosen to give birth to life.  They cross

                 the boundaries, they cross the bridges, they

                 want to have children.  And it is our

                 responsibility to listen to them and not to

                 create a greater divide in America between the

                 poor and the wealthy.

                            Mr. President, if I had my

                 druthers, based upon my vote on the amendment,

                 I would take and accept the bill from the

                 Assembly.  But I have faith in the major faith

                 organizations of this state, who have been in

                 constant dialogue with each other and the

                 leaders of the State Senate and the leaders of

                 the Assembly.

                            I will vote for this bill.  With

                 reservation, but I will vote for this bill

                 because I look upon this bill as a first step

                 towards a compromise bill that will allow all

                 people who are in need of aid to eliminate

                 infertility to receive that aid, regardless of

                 their economic position in society, regardless

                 of race, ethnicity, and religion.  It is a

                 first step towards a compromise between the

                 two houses of this Legislature.

                            And I hope the compromise will not





                                                          245



                 be attempted at the last hours of the session

                 of this Legislature, as took place last year.

                            I therefore vote yes on this bill.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 there will be an immediate meeting of the

                 Children and Families Committee in the

                 Majority Conference Room.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

                 Immediate meeting of the Children and Families

                 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This

                 act shall take effect July 1.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar Number 39 are

                 Senators Breslin, Brown, Connor, Dollinger,

                 Duane, Hassell-Thompson, Kuhl, Maltese, McGee,

                 Meier, Montgomery, Onorato, Oppenheimer,

                 Paterson, Sampson, Schneiderman, Seward, A.

                 Smith, M. Smith, Stachowski, and Stavisky.





                                                          246



                 Ayes, 39.  Nays, 21.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    If we could

                 return to motions and resolutions, I believe

                 there's a privileged resolution at the desk by

                 Senator Bruno.  I ask that the title be read

                 and move for its immediate adoption.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Motions

                 and resolutions.

                            The Secretary will read the title.

                            THE SECRETARY:    By Senators

                 Bruno, Leibell, and Spano, Legislative

                 Resolution honoring the Honorable James J.

                 McGowan upon the occasion of his retirement

                 after many years of distinguished service as

                 New York State Commissioner of Labor.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 question is on the resolution.  All those in

                 favor signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,





                                                          247



                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 resolution is adopted.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President, I

                 believe there's a privileged resolution at the

                 desk by Senator Seward.  I ask that the title

                 be read and move for its immediate adoption.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read the title.

                            THE SECRETARY:    By Senator

                 Seward, Legislative Resolution commemorating

                 the 20th anniversary of service to the rural

                 communities of Tompkins County, New York, by

                 Better Housing for Tompkins County,

                 Incorporated.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 question is on the resolution.  All those in

                 favor signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The





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                 resolution is adopted.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 on behalf of Senator Bruno, I hereby give

                 written notice, as required by Rule 11, that

                 he will move to amend the Senate rules.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 notice has been received at the desk and will

                 be filed.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Please recognize

                 Senator Dollinger.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.  Thank you to the Deputy

                 Majority Leader.

                            I also give notice, pursuant to

                 Rule 11, of a motion to amend the Senate rules

                 which is at the desk, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    That

                 notice has been received at the desk, and it

                 will be filed.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 if we could return to reports of standing





                                                          249



                 committees.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Reports

                 of standing committees.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator

                 Marcellino, from the Committee on

                 Environmental Conservation, reports:

                            Senate Print 743, by Senator

                 Johnson, an act to amend the Environmental

                 Conservation Law;

                            781, by Senator Marcellino, an act

                 to repeal Title 17 of Article 23;

                            And Senate Print 806, by Senator

                 Marcellino, an act to amend the Environmental

                 Conservation Law.

                            Senator Rath, from the Committee on

                 Local Government, reports:

                            Senate Print 858, by Senator

                 Balboni, an act to authorize the Congregation

                 Shira Chadasha;

                            And Senate Print 859, by Senator

                 Balboni, an act in relation to authorizing the

                 Chabad Lubavitch of Old Westbury to file.

                            Senator Morahan, from the Committee

                 on Veterans and Military Affairs, reports:





                                                          250



                            Senate Print 89, by Senator

                 Maltese, an act to amend the Real Property Tax

                 Law;

                            109, by Senator Marcellino, an act

                 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law;

                            364, by Senator Morahan, an act to

                 amend the Civil Service Law;

                            371, by Senator Morahan, an act to

                 amend the Military Law;

                            And Senate Print 500, by Senator

                 Morahan, an act to amend the Real Property Tax

                 Law.

                            All bills ordered direct to third

                 reading.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 is there any housekeeping at the desk?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    We have

                 a motion, Senator Skelos.

                            Senator Libous.

                            SENATOR LIBOUS:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            On behalf of Senator Volker, Mr.

                 President, I move that the following bill be

                 discharged from its respective committee and

                 be recommitted with instructions to strike the





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                 enacting clause:  Senate Number 1163.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    So

                 ordered.

                            With regard to the committee

                 reports, without objection, all bills are

                 reported directly to third reading.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President, I

                 believe we have one more committee report,

                 Senator Saland's committee.

                            There will be an immediate

                 conference of the Majority in the Majority

                 Conference Room.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

                 Immediate meeting of the Majority Conference

                 in the Majority Conference Room.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 if we could again return to reports of

                 standing committees, I believe there's a

                 report at the desk.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Reports

                 of standing committees.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator Saland,





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                 from the Committee on Children and Families,

                 reports:

                            Senate Print 115, by Senator

                 Marcellino, an act to amend the Social

                 Services Law;

                            394, by Senator Saland, an act to

                 amend the Social Services Law;

                            395, by Senator Saland, an act to

                 amend the Family Court Act;

                            404, by Senator Skelos, an act to

                 amend the Social Services Law;

                            And 421, by Senator Skelos, an act

                 to amend the Domestic Relations Law.

                            All bills ordered direct to third

                 reading.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Without

                 objection, all bills directly to third

                 reading.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 is there any housekeeping at the desk?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    There is

                 no housekeeping.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    There being no

                 further business, I move we adjourn until





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                 Monday, January 29th, at 3:00 p.m.,

                 intervening days being legislative days.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    On

                 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until

                 Monday, January 29th, at 3:00 p.m.,

                 intervening days being legislative days.

                            (Whereupon, at 1:35 p.m., the

                 Senate adjourned.)