Regular Session - May 30, 2001

                                                              8267



                           NEW YORK STATE SENATE





                          THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD









                             ALBANY, NEW YORK

                               May 30, 2001

                                11:16 a.m.





                              REGULAR SESSION







                 LT. GOVERNOR MARY O. DONOHUE, President

                 STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary

















                                                          8268



                           P R O C E E D I N G S

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Senate will

                 come to order.

                            I ask everyone present to please

                 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of

                 Allegiance.

                            (Whereupon, the assemblage recited

                 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

                            THE PRESIDENT:    In the absence of

                 clergy, may we bow our heads in a moment of

                 silence.

                            (Whereupon, the assemblage

                 respected a moment of silence.)

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Reading of the

                 Journal.

                            THE SECRETARY:    In Senate,

                 Tuesday, May 29, the Senate met pursuant to

                 adjournment.  The Journal of Sunday, May 27,

                 was read and approved.  On motion, Senate

                 adjourned.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Without

                 objection, the Journal stands approved as

                 read.

                            Presentation of petitions.

                            Messages from the Assembly.





                                                          8269



                            Messages from the Governor.

                            Reports of standing committees.

                            Reports of select committees.

                            Communications and reports from

                 state officers.

                            Motions and resolutions.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Madam President,

                 if we could adopt the Resolution Calendar at

                 this time.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    All in favor of

                 adopting the Resolution Calendar please say

                 aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Opposed, nay.

                            (No response.)

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Resolution

                 Calendar is adopted.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Skelos,

                 we have a substitution.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Senator Morahan

                 has consented that Resolutions 2052, 2056,

                 2057, and 2058 be opened for sponsorship.

                            So with the consent of the





                                                          8270



                 Minority, we'll put all the members on the

                 resolutions.  If they do not wish to sponsor

                 the resolutions, they should notify the desk.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    All those members

                 who do not wish to sponsor the resolutions as

                 expressed by Senator Skelos please notify the

                 desk.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Madam President,

                 are there any substitutions at the desk?

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Yes, there are,

                 Senator.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    I ask that they

                 be made at this time.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    On page 40,

                 Senator Maltese moves to discharge, from the

                 Committee on Elections, Assembly Bill Number

                 8463 and substitute it for the identical

                 Senate Bill Number 4913A, Third Reading

                 Calendar 699.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The substitution

                 is ordered.

                            Senator Skelos.





                                                          8271



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Madam President,

                 if we could go to the noncontroversial

                 calendar.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 433, by Senator Rath, Senate Print 4096, an

                 act to amend the Municipal Home Rule Law.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 5.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 37.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 486, by Senator Farley, Senate Print 2148, an

                 act to amend the Executive Law, in relation to

                 designation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.





                                                          8272



                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 37.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 505, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 2923,

                 an act to amend the General Municipal Law, in

                 relation to taking of billboards.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside,

                 please.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 573, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 5086, an

                 act to amend Chapter 510 of the Laws of 1996.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 37.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.





                                                          8273



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 603, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 4485, an

                 act to amend Chapter 607 of the Laws of 1999.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 40.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 609, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3750, an

                 act to amend the Environmental Conservation

                 Law, in relation to notification.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside,

                 please.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 613, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 1219A,

                 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law

                 and the Administrative Code of the City of

                 New York.





                                                          8274



                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 40.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 739, by Senator McGee, Senate Print 869, an

                 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law, in

                 relation to requiring.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 40.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Velella.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Madam





                                                          8275



                 President, there will be an immediate meeting

                 of the Local Governments Committee in the

                 Majority Conference Room.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Local Governments

                 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 740, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 1367 -

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 40.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 760, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 2976, an

                 act to authorize the Town of Poughkeepsie in

                 the County of Dutchess.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There is a home

                 rule message at the desk.





                                                          8276



                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 42.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 768, by Senator Balboni, Senate Print 3691, an

                 act in relation to allowing the -

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside,

                 please.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 810, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 4307, an

                 act to amend the Social Services Law, in

                 relation to guaranteeing.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Lay it

                 aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 820, by Senator Larkin, Senate Print 2338A, an





                                                          8277



                 act to amend Chapter 672 of the Laws of 1993.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 Dollinger, to explain your vote.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            This is another bill in a line of

                 bills that we've passed that affect libraries

                 and the use of Dormitory funding.  I'm going

                 to vote in favor of this bill, as I believe I

                 have on both bills sponsored by Senator Larkin

                 and I believe Senator Saland and others this

                 year.

                            I would just encourage the sponsor.

                 This, I think, is a very good idea.  It will

                 reduce borrowing costs for libraries around

                 the state.  And while I understand Senator

                 Larkin's advocacy on the behalf of the Monroe

                 Free Library, it really is a benefit that

                 should be available to all libraries.





                                                          8278



                            We ought to look at making the

                 Dormitory Authority as the borrowing entity

                 for all library new construction and

                 renovation.  It would reduce their costs.

                 It's in our best interests to do that.  And

                 it's a way to give an indirect financial

                 benefit to large numbers of libraries that are

                 becoming more and more valuable, not only in

                 the Monroe Free Library but throughout the

                 state.

                            This is a good idea.  We should do

                 it statewide.  I'll vote aye, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will announce the results.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 45.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 830, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 5141, an

                 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in

                 relation to the power.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number





                                                          8279



                 843, by Senator Nozzolio, Senate Print 3936,

                 an act to amend the Penal Law, the Vehicle and

                 Traffic Law, and the Insurance Law.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 9.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 45.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 844, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 3937, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

                 endangering the welfare of a child.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 5.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 47.





                                                          8280



                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 846, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4234, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

                 establishing.

                            SENATOR ADA SMITH:    Lay it aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 847, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 4283, an

                 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

                 relation to proof.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 876, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 4869, an

                 act to amend the Public Service Law.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 896, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 1725 -

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside.





                                                          8281



                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 913, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 4957, an

                 act to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Control

                 Law.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 47.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 914, by Senator Leibell, Senate Print 5135, an

                 act to amend Chapter 929 of the Laws of 1986.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 47.





                                                          8282



                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 949, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 3481,

                 an act to amend the Executive Law, in relation

                 to the Emergency Management Assistance

                 Compact.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay that

                 aside, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 962, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 2228, an

                 act to authorize the reopening of the optional

                 twenty-year retirement plan.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There is a home

                 rule message at the desk.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 48.





                                                          8283



                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 966, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 4236,

                 an act to amend Chapter 688 of the Laws of

                 1955.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 969, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 5269,

                 an act to amend the Environmental Conservation

                 Law, in relation to continuing.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 48.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 970, by Senator Hoffmann, Senate Print 84, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to





                                                          8284



                 inciting to riot in the first degree.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Lay it

                 aside.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Lay it aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Can we lay that

                 aside for the day.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    That bill is laid

                 aside just for the day.

                            The Secretary will continue to

                 read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 971, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 1133, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the

                 minimum sentence.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Lay it aside,

                 please.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 972, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 1342, an

                 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

                 relation to authorizing.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last





                                                          8285



                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 48.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 974, by Senator Santiago, Senate Print 2205A,

                 an act authorizing the City of New York to

                 reconvey its interest.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There is a home

                 rule message at the desk.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 5.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 48.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 976, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 3374, an

                 act -





                                                          8286



                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 978, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 4512, an

                 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

                 relation to prohibiting.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Lay it aside.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 979, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4722, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the

                 crime of criminal mischief in the third

                 degree.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 January.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 50.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.





                                                          8287



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 980, by Senator Velella, Senate Print 4723, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the

                 crime of unauthorized use.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 January.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 50.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 981, by Senator A. Smith, Senate Print 5308,

                 an act authorizing the City of New York to

                 reconvey its interest.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There is a home

                 rule message at the desk.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 5.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)





                                                          8288



                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 50.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Velella, that completes the

                 reading of the noncontroversial calendar.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Madam

                 President, can you recognize Senator

                 DeFrancisco.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 DeFrancisco.

                            SENATOR DeFRANCISCO:    Madam

                 President, I'd request unanimous consent to

                 vote in the negative on Calendar 739, Senate

                 Print 869.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You will be so

                 recorded as voting in the negative, Senator.

                            Senator Velella.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Madam

                 President, can we proceed to the controversial

                 calendar in order, please.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read.

                            Senator Duane.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.  With unanimous consent, I'd like





                                                          8289



                 to be recorded in the negative on Calendar

                 Number 433 and Calendar Number 739.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You will be so

                 recorded as voting in the negative, Senator

                 Duane.

                            Senator Velella.

                            SENATOR VELELLA:    Madam

                 President, there will be an immediate meeting

                 of the Education Committee in the Majority

                 Conference Room.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Education Committee

                 in the Majority Conference Room.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 505, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 2923,

                 an act to amend the General Municipal Law, in

                 relation to taking of billboards.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:

                 Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 an explanation has been requested.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.





                                                          8290



                            These bills are no strangers to any

                 of us.  This is a bill whereby if you have

                 property and it's taken by eminent domain, you

                 will be paid for that property.  And we feel

                 that it's a bill that should prevail.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 Oppenheimer.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    I guess

                 the -- I do have a couple of questions.  This

                 is 505.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 will you yield for a question from Senator

                 Oppenheimer?

                            You may proceed, Senator.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    We all work

                 together, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    I ask for order

                 on the floor.  If the members would take their

                 conversations outside the chambers so that the

                 debate may be heard clearly.

                            Go ahead, Senator Oppenheimer.  You

                 may proceed with a question.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Thank you.

                            Senator Stafford, if this bill were

                 to pass, the municipality would no longer just





                                                          8291



                 be able to require the removal of a billboard;

                 is that true?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    I'm asking

                 what the question is, Madam President.  I

                 didn't hear it.

                            No, it's not true.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Okay.  If

                 the Senator would yield again.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 will you continue to yield for a question?

                            You may proceed, Senator

                 Oppenheimer.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    If the

                 municipality could require the removal of the

                 billboard without going to eminent domain

                 proceedings, then why do we have this bill?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Madam

                 President, I understand -- and I'm sure that

                 some members of Senator Oppenheimer's family

                 who are good lawyers -- I believe it's one of

                 the real fine firms, I think it's the

                 Proskauer firm.  And I'm sure that if you

                 talked to any of those lawyers, they would say

                 if you have some property, no matter what the

                 situation is, and it's taken, then there would





                                                          8292



                 be payment.  And the procedure is eminent

                 domain.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    If the

                 Senator would yield.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator, will you

                 yield for another question?

                            I believe that was a yes.  Senator

                 Oppenheimer, you may proceed.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Yes.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:

                 Unfortunately, I don't have the entire

                 environmental legal staff of Proskauer at my

                 disposal.  Therefore, I must pursue this with

                 my limited abilities.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    That is what

                 we all do, Madam President, on most issues.

                            (Laughter.)

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    My fear is

                 that if there is only the eminent domain

                 procedure available to the municipality, that

                 they will not pursue this because they do not

                 want to get entangled in the legal costs,

                 rather than just simply prohibiting the

                 billboard, as has been the situation in the

                 past.





                                                          8293



                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Madam

                 President, I hesitate to go back to John

                 Locke, but I find it necessary here today for

                 just a second.  And if you read John Locke, he

                 discusses property.

                            And in our system, which is great,

                 in our jurisprudential system, in our

                 democracy, if we have property -- and we may

                 not agree with the people that have that

                 property, but if it's taken from them, we have

                 eminent domain.  And then we have a situation

                 where the issues are raised and the equities

                 are balanced.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    I'm not

                 sure what that meant.

                            One last question, and then I -

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 will you yield for a final question?

                            You may proceed, Senator

                 Oppenheimer.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Then I

                 think I will let the legal entities on this

                 side of the aisle take over.

                            You say -- I believe you said that

                 there still would be available to





                                                          8294



                 municipalities, outside of this resorting to

                 eminent domain, the ability to take -- to

                 require a billboard to be removed.  Is that

                 what you said earlier?  Because I believe this

                 replaces that.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    I'm going to,

                 Madam President, ask the Senator to please ask

                 the question again.  We've got to do something

                 about the microphones here, I think.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    My question

                 is I thought earlier you had said that if this

                 goes into effect, this bill, that

                 municipalities still would have the authority

                 to remove the billboard without going to

                 eminent domain proceedings.

                            That isn't my understanding of the

                 bill.  That's why I'm asking again.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    No, Madam

                 President, I did not say that.

                            I did say, though, that -- I get

                 back to the point.  And please, it's always

                 good to try to get to the heart of the issue

                 to get really to the point.  So I'll try to

                 say again, we may not agree, we may not agree

                 with individuals or businesses that have





                                                          8295



                 property.  But still, if the property is

                 legal, then we find that they should be

                 reimbursed for that property.

                            That's what we're talking about

                 here.  And I think that's really the heart of

                 the issue.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Well,

                 that's a good question.

                            One last question.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 will you yield for another question?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    By all means.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator Oppenheimer.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    My

                 colleague is questioning, are we talking about

                 the billboard itself or the leasing of the

                 billboard?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Madam

                 President, this is the entire package.  We all

                 know, in business, if you have a -- if you

                 have the -- it's actually a lease, now that I

                 think about it.  Yes, it's a lease.  It's a

                 lease, really.

                            The entire package.





                                                          8296



                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Okay.  I'm

                 going to let my colleagues speak now.

                            But I -- on the bill, please, Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed

                 on the bill, Senator Oppenheimer.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    As I stated

                 earlier, I fear that moving to eminent domain

                 proceedings for a municipality is a costly

                 undertaking, and I think that they will not

                 pursue it.

                            And therefore, I'll be voting

                 against this bill, because I think the

                 municipality has the right to move ahead

                 without going to eminent domain if they

                 consider a billboard to be in a place or in a

                 situation which they think is undesirable for

                 their municipality.  So I'll be voting no.

                            And I turn it over to my legal

                 counsel.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.  If the sponsor would yield

                 for a few questions.





                                                          8297



                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 will you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    By all means.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    I

                 appreciate the sponsor's efforts to cut to the

                 heart of the issue before us.  But it seems to

                 me that the heart of the issue in this bill is

                 not whether or not a billboard can be removed,

                 but how much money it costs a municipality to

                 remove a billboard.

                            Is it not true that under the

                 current law there is a provision for payment

                 to someone who erects a billboard in a

                 residential area provided for through an

                 amortization schedule?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Well, first, I

                 would say, discussing what the heart of the

                 matter is, I don't know whether I've ever

                 shared with you, Senator, but we often find

                 that one man's floor is another man's ceiling.

                 So sometimes we don't agree on exactly what

                 the issue is.

                            But you're actually correct in what





                                                          8298



                 you asked.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.  If the sponsor would

                 continue to yield.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 do you continue to yield?

                            You may proceed, Senator

                 Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you.

                            I appreciate the sponsor's

                 metaphor.  Living in Manhattan, I'm very

                 familiar with this floor-ceiling issue.  It's

                 something that is an issue on a daily basis in

                 my life.

                            However, I think that given the

                 answer to the last question, it seems clear

                 now that in areas that are zoned industrial or

                 for manufacturing purposes, municipalities

                 already are required to follow an eminent

                 domain procedure to remove a billboard.  The

                 law now, though, provides that municipalities

                 can pay somewhat less than would be required

                 under such a procedure in other areas, in the

                 pristine residential neighborhoods or open

                 space areas of the state.





                                                          8299



                            And the question is, why should we

                 change the law and essentially transfer money

                 from municipalities that are trying to prevent

                 the visual pollution of billboards, why should

                 we transfer money from those municipalities to

                 the billboard erectors?

                            And that's, it seems to me, what

                 this bill does.  Why should we make that sort

                 of a change to transfer more money to those

                 who would erect billboards in the bucolic

                 hills of northern New York or the bucolic

                 hills of Morningside Heights?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    It's working

                 well in those areas, and we think it should be

                 extended.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Mmm.

                            Through you, Madam President, is

                 there any indication from any municipality or

                 any other source that the provision for an

                 amortization schedule in residential

                 neighborhoods is not working well?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    In -- yes,

                 there's been problems, Madam President.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Could the

                 sponsor describe any of those problems or





                                                          8300



                 identify a particular problem?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Yeah.

                 People -- you know, really, it hasn't been

                 equitable, and this would be much more

                 equitable as far as the people who are in this

                 industry.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you.

                 Thank the sponsor for his answers.

                            On the bill, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed

                 on the bill, Senator.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    I think

                 that the situation here with -- I'm not sure

                 if it's a floor or a ceiling -- is that what

                 this bill would do is simply transfer money

                 from municipalities that are seeking to

                 regulate the erection of billboards in

                 residential areas, transfer money from the

                 municipalities to those who erect such

                 billboards.

                            I think it is tremendously

                 important that this bill does not apply to

                 industrial and manufacturing areas.  That is

                 already covered by the state's eminent domain

                 proceedings.  What we have in the law now is a





                                                          8301



                 lesser requirement for payment for a

                 municipality that seeks to take down a

                 billboard in a residential neighborhood.  That

                 makes good sense.

                            We do not have to proceed with

                 eminent domain proceedings in every case in

                 which a municipality attempts to regulate what

                 goes on in a residential community.  In fact,

                 if a municipality zoned -- provided through

                 its own zoning regulations that you can't put

                 up any billboards in a particular area, that

                 would not require an eminent domain

                 proceeding.  That would not be a taking under

                 the United States Constitution.

                            So it seems to me that here we have

                 a situation where environmentalists and

                 advocates for open space are opposed to this

                 change in the law.  They feel that the current

                 amortization schedule provides enough

                 compensation for a billboard erector.

                            The local governments -- the

                 statewide organization that represents local

                 governments is opposed to this, because they

                 understand this would just make it more

                 expensive for municipalities -- many of which





                                                          8302



                 have their backs against the wall as it is as

                 far as expenditures in their budgets go -

                 make it more difficult for municipalities to

                 remove billboards, make it more expensive.

                            I think that the current system is

                 working well.  The current system of requiring

                 eminent domain proceedings in manufacturing

                 and industrial areas but allowing

                 municipalities to provide something of a

                 lesser payment in residential areas, that's

                 working well.  I don't see any reason to

                 change it.

                            I think that we have a need in this

                 state to be conscious not just of pollution in

                 the air and pollution in the water but to be

                 conscious of visual pollution.  A lot of

                 communities, a lot of people in the

                 communities of this state find that their

                 lives are better if they can be in areas that

                 don't have billboards all over the place.

                 That's a reasonable use of our legislative

                 power, to help the municipalities achieve that

                 goal.

                            And I would strongly urge a no vote

                 on this legislation.  I think my floor for the





                                                          8303



                 number of billboards in this state may be

                 somewhere around Senator Stafford's ceiling,

                 but I think in this case we can agree to

                 disagree on this.  But I just don't see a

                 reason to change the existing law, and I urge

                 a no vote.

                            Thank you, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 Dollinger.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.  Just briefly on the bill.

                            I have two thoughts to add to

                 Senator Schneiderman's observations.  One is

                 remember that the value of a billboard is

                 largely built, is largely based on its

                 visibility from public highways.  The public

                 has already paid to create the value in the

                 billboard.

                            We created the major highways to

                 which these billboards are adjacent, and so as

                 a consequence the billboard is more valuable

                 if it's located next to Route 87 in the North

                 Country than if it is on a small country road.

                            So the value of the billboard from

                 the point of view of its renting is created by





                                                          8304



                 public money.  It's not created by the

                 value -- the value does not lie in the cost of

                 simply putting up the billboard.  It's its

                 proximity to publicly funded highways that

                 make it valuable.

                            And the second problem with this

                 bill is, if you get into eminent domain, the

                 question is what's the fair market value of

                 the billboard, which will be in large measure

                 based upon its rental income.  Which means

                 that its proximity to a public investment will

                 make it more expensive for a community to buy

                 and retire.

                            It seems to me that that means, in

                 essence, we are using the public money to

                 create value in an asset that makes it more

                 costly for the public to acquire and remove.

                 That doesn't make any sense to me.

                            What makes sense is the current

                 approach, which is the community simply says:

                 We want this bulletin board removed because

                 it's in a residential area because it's

                 blocking the landscape or a seascape.  We

                 think it should be removed so that people can

                 enjoy the views of New York, what New York





                                                          8305



                 looks like in its natural glory without the

                 message from an advertiser in the middle of

                 it.

                            And this bill currently says that

                 under those circumstances, you give notice and

                 the billboard can continue to exist for a

                 significant period of time to allow the

                 erector of the billboard or the owner of the

                 billboard to recoup part of their investment,

                 they get something back, and then the

                 community eventually gets it removed.

                            But to suggest that this is a

                 completely private investment I think is to

                 mistake the whole purpose for which billboards

                 serve.  The value of billboards is created by

                 the public.  The public can put a reasonable

                 restriction and a reasonable requirement on

                 their removal when they're blocking the public

                 assets in an unobstructed view of the beauty

                 of New York.

                            I agree with Senator Schneiderman,

                 this is the wrong way to go.  It will only

                 make it more expensive for communities to

                 acquire these billboards, because they'll have

                 to pay fair market value, the cost of rentals





                                                          8306



                 amortized over time.  In essence, this means

                 that no billboards next to public highways

                 that are located in residential areas will

                 ever be removed, it will be far too expensive.

                            I think that's a bad idea for the

                 future of New York.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Madam

                 President, I seldom rise again, but I do have

                 to point out that I think I can help us all.

                            We're arguing here over something,

                 but this bill will have billboards removed

                 immediately.  Immediately.  They just don't

                 stay there, they're gone.  And then people are

                 paid for what -- or the owners are paid

                 through eminent domain, and we will not have

                 this waiting period of ten years or more.  So

                 I think even some of my friends now are

                 thinking about that.

                            So please think about it.  And

                 maybe we can get on with the bill.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stavisky.

                            SENATOR STAVISKY:    Madam

                 President, on the bill.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed.





                                                          8307



                            SENATOR STAVISKY:    While I

                 appreciate Senator Stafford's comments and I

                 respect his feelings about this, after

                 listening to my colleagues, my concern is

                 theirs plus another area.  And that's the

                 question of safety.  Because people take their

                 eyes off the road to look at the billboard and

                 endanger other people.

                            And for that reason, Madam

                 President, in addition to all of the others, I

                 will vote no.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard on this bill?

                            Senator Schneiderman.

                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Madam

                 President, if I may, just in response to

                 Senator Stafford's last, clearly articulated,

                 but I believe somewhat erroneous point, the

                 eminent domain procedure is available to

                 municipalities now.  They can condemn a

                 billboard under eminent domain now.  What we

                 have also available to them is a cheaper way

                 to remove the billboard.

                            This law would remove the cheaper

                 way to remove a billboard and limit them to





                                                          8308



                 the eminent domain procedure.  This is not an

                 act that speeds up the removal of billboards

                 or in any way aids in the removal of

                 billboards.  It just makes it harder and more

                 expensive for municipalities to remove them.

                            And again, I urge a no vote.  Thank

                 you.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard on this bill?

                            Then the debate is closed.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 Dollinger, to explain your vote.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Just briefly,

                 Madam President.

                            I completely concur with Senator

                 Schneiderman.  You can use eminent domain now

                 if you want to.  The reason why it isn't being

                 used is because it's too expensive, because

                 you in essence have to pay the fair market

                 value of an asset that is generating





                                                          8309



                 significant income because of its proximity to

                 a public road.

                            I would suggest, Senator Stafford,

                 you could now use it.  Nobody does, because

                 it's just way too expensive.  Then you have a

                 huge cost associated with trying to remove

                 billboards.

                            What we've done by the current law

                 is we've given an easy, economical way to

                 allow the owner to recoup part of their

                 investment, and at the same time they have

                 these unsightly billboards removed from

                 residential areas.  That's what we should

                 continue to do.

                            That's why I'm voting no, Madam

                 President.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Madam

                 President, could I have my name called.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    This is the

                 first time in 37 years I've ever asked my name

                 be called to explain my vote, but they're

                 actually -- they're -- I just can't stand it.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Well, please

                 proceed and explain your vote.





                                                          8310



                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    You people are

                 making such mistakes.  This will just be a

                 uniform procedure now for the industry, and it

                 will get the assets removed immediately.  It's

                 a much better way to do what some of us want

                 to get done.

                            Thank you, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You will be

                 recorded as voting in the affirmative, Senator

                 Stafford.

                            Senator Dollinger will be recorded

                 as voting in the negative.

                            The Secretary will announce the

                 results.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar Number 505 are

                 Senators Breslin, Brown, Dollinger, Duane,

                 Goodman, Hassell-Thompson, LaValle, Leibell,

                 Markowitz, Onorato, Oppenheimer, Padavan,

                 Paterson, Schneiderman, Stachowski, and

                 Stavisky.  Also Senator Connor.  Ayes, 37.

                 Nays, 17.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Balboni.





                                                          8311



                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  I'd like to make an announcement

                 of an immediate meeting of the Civil Service

                 and Pensions Committee in the Majority

                 Leader's Conference Room, please.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Civil Service and

                 Pensions Committee in the Majority Conference

                 Room.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 609, by Senator Wright, Senate Print 3750, an

                 act to amend the Environmental Conservation

                 Law, in relation to notification.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Wright,

                 an explanation has been requested.

                            SENATOR WRIGHT:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.

                            We're proposing to amend the

                 Environmental Conservation Law today by adding

                 a provision that requires a 45-day notice of a

                 tightness test on a petroleum bulk storage

                 tank.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Paterson.





                                                          8312



                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Madam

                 President, if Senator Wright will yield for a

                 question.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Wright,

                 will you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR WRIGHT:    Yes, I will,

                 Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Senator, in

                 the long run I think this is actually a good

                 idea and is environmentally sound.  But I

                 thought we might have a little public

                 discussion on the uniqueness of it that DEC,

                 in this case, is actually going to notify the

                 party that theoretically should know, because

                 they're operating in this type of business,

                 what the requirements for a tightness test

                 would be.

                            And I wanted to know, was there

                 anything that had happened in the past or

                 anything that you would like to bring to our

                 attention that is relating to why we're going

                 to divorce ourselves from the usual procedure

                 and have the department notify the parties in





                                                          8313



                 this case, where normally the parties should

                 already know that, it should be within their

                 contemplation when they take possession of

                 this type of a tank.

                            SENATOR WRIGHT:    I would

                 certainly be glad to share with you some of

                 the history, Senator.

                            The bill has its origins by virtue

                 of a problem that a dairy farmer had in my

                 district.  And like many of the individuals

                 that own petroleum bulk storage tanks, they

                 are not used on a recurring basis.  And this

                 is true of many farmers and many small

                 businesses.  So when you have a five-year

                 permitting system, frankly, it's not at the

                 top of their list of priorities.

                            And in this instance, the gentleman

                 was presented with a consent order and what I

                 considered to be an excessive fine, because no

                 sooner had he been informed that the permit

                 had expired, he immediately had the necessary

                 inspections completed and processed the

                 necessary permits.  Unfortunately, he still

                 had an obligation for the penalty and the

                 consent agreement.





                                                          8314



                            It seemed to me, and I believe to

                 others, since this bill is endorsed by both

                 the Farm Bureau as well as the Environmental

                 Advocates, that a practical solution was to

                 ensure that notifications were sent to the

                 holders of these permits.  And by doing so, we

                 would facilitate the regulatory process,

                 hopefully enhance compliance, and, while there

                 would be some minimal cost involved in terms

                 of a notification, that minimal cost would be

                 more than avoided by avoiding consent

                 agreements, prosecution, and a number of other

                 expensive measures where simple notification

                 would ensure compliance.

                            Therein the bill.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.  And thank you, Senator

                 Wright.

                            I had two other questions relating

                 to how the notification would occur and

                 whether or not there was a cost, and Senator

                 Wright in his first answer answered all three.

                 So I thank him for his answers and for his

                 extrasensory perception.

                            SENATOR WRIGHT:    Thank you,





                                                          8315



                 Senator.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard on this bill?

                            Then the debate is closed.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect on the 30th day.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 54.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            SENATOR HEVESI:    Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Hevesi.

                            SENATOR HEVESI:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.  I rise to request unanimous

                 consent to be recorded in the negative on

                 Calendar 505, Senate Print 2923.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Without

                 objection, you will be so recorded as voting

                 in the negative.

                            SENATOR HEVESI:    Thank you.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number





                                                          8316



                 768, by Senator Balboni, Senate Print 3691, an

                 act in relation to allowing.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, thank you

                 very much.

                            This bill would allow the Jain

                 Center, which is a religious organization that

                 has facilities in Elmhurst, Queens, and in

                 North Hempstead, Long Island, to apply for a

                 real property tax exemption rebate as a result

                 of the acquisition of real property after the

                 taxable status date.  And therefore placing

                 themselves in the unenviable position of not

                 being able to get on the tax-exempt roll for

                 purposes of not paying real property taxes and

                 enjoying their religious exemption.

                            Thank you, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Madam

                 President, would Senator Balboni yield for a





                                                          8317



                 question.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Balboni,

                 will you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, I do,

                 Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Senator, I'm

                 actually hoping that Senator Dollinger will be

                 able to come in and continue with the

                 questioning.  This is an issue that's very

                 important to him -

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    You think he'd

                 have an objection, Senator?

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    And it's

                 obviously very important to you.

                            In the meantime, what are your

                 ideas on perhaps a tax exemption rebate task

                 force and seminar jointly cohosted, a

                 bipartisan effort, by you and Senator

                 Dollinger, somewhere in Long Island or perhaps

                 Rochester, so that perhaps we could find a way

                 to concretize these issues on a statewide

                 basis once and for all?

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Madam





                                                          8318



                 President, in response to the gentleman's

                 question, I would wholeheartedly endorse the

                 concept of bipartisan committees.  I think

                 it's a great thing for folks on both sides of

                 the aisle to get together.  Like our budget

                 conference committee this morning.  That would

                 have been another great opportunity for all of

                 us to get together and talk about different

                 things.

                            But be that as it may, that

                 wouldn't help the Jain Center.  And so we need

                 to do this legislation so they can be the

                 recipients of the benefits that we as a

                 society have deemed they should be

                 appropriately given.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you,

                 Madam President, the explanation is

                 satisfactory.

                            And I guess we'll go ahead and

                 accommodate the Jain Center, since this is the

                 only means possible for us to do this now,

                 with the addendum that I have a feeling that

                 before this session is completed that Senator

                 Dollinger will comment on this at some point.





                                                          8319



                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard on this bill?

                            Then the debate is closed.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 54.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 810, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 4307, an

                 act to amend the Social Services Law, in

                 relation to guaranteeing.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Could we please

                 lay that bill aside temporarily.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside temporarily.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 830, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 5141, an

                 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in





                                                          8320



                 relation to the power of the State of New York

                 Mortgage Agency.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Could we please

                 lay this bill aside temporarily.  There are a

                 lot of committee meetings going on, and we're

                 trying to accommodate the different schedules

                 of the Senators.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is laid

                 aside temporarily.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 846, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4234, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

                 establishing a presumption.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Madam

                 President, could we please lay this bill aside

                 temporarily.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    This bill is also

                 laid aside temporarily.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Madam

                 President, would you please go to Calendar

                 896, by Senator Goodman.





                                                          8321



                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read Calendar 896.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 896, by Senator Goodman, Senate Print 1725, an

                 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to the

                 seizure and forfeiture.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Madam

                 President, more so than an explanation, if

                 Senator Goodman could just explain what the

                 due process is in the procedure, I'd be

                 satisfied.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Goodman,

                 an explanation has been requested.

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Madam

                 President, this bill seeks to amend the law to

                 authorize peace officers designated pursuant

                 to subdivision 5 of Section 210 of the

                 Criminal Procedure Law to -- well, let's skip

                 this and get to the core of this -- to seize

                 vehicles used to transport unstamped or

                 unlawfully stamped cigarettes.

                            This is a step forward in our

                 battle against cigarette bootlegging, which,

                 as you probably are generally aware, Senator,





                                                          8322



                 is a very grave problem in New York State as a

                 result of the increases, successive increases

                 in cigarette tax.

                            Previously, as the finance

                 commissioner for the City of New York, I waged

                 war against the cigarette bootleggers and

                 indeed was the only person I know who's ever

                 personally been sued for $8 million by a group

                 of organized crime people bringing illegal

                 cigarettes into the State of New York.  It was

                 necessary to mount a vigorous defense, and we

                 of course won that suit.

                            But the people who bring in

                 cigarettes are not only organized crime

                 figures, although that's a major source of

                 funds for organized crime, they're also

                 individuals who may go across the border and

                 drive across the George Washington Bridge with

                 a trunkful of cigarettes which they obtain

                 tax-free and sell in the city at markups which

                 are exceedingly profitable.

                            Presently the city tax inspectors

                 have the power to seize bootlegged

                 cigarettes -- unstamped or fraudulently

                 stamped cigarettes, that is -- and vending





                                                          8323



                 machines that dispense bootlegged cigarettes.

                 New York State tax enforcement agents, in

                 addition, have the power to seize vehicles in

                 which bootlegged cigarettes are being

                 transported.  New York City police officers

                 also have the power of seizure to seize

                 vehicles that are subject to forfeiture.

                            The bill will improve enforcement

                 of New York City's tax laws, both state and

                 local, by giving New York City tax inspectors

                 the same power as New York City police

                 officers and New York State tax enforcement

                 agents to seize vehicles in which bootlegged

                 cigarettes are being transported.

                            The enactment of the bill will aid

                 in the collection of cigarette taxes, deter

                 unlawful conduct, and generate revenue through

                 the sale of forfeited vehicles.  It's strongly

                 backed by the City of New York.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Onorato.

                            SENATOR ONORATO:    Madam

                 President, will the Senator yield?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Yes, I will,

                 Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Senator does





                                                          8324



                 yield.  You may proceed, Senator Onorato.

                            SENATOR ONORATO:    Senator

                 Goodman, is there a limitation on the amount

                 that you're talking about?  Somebody traveling

                 who runs out of cigarettes, buys a couple of

                 cartons while they're in Virginia or something

                 and is coming home with it, maybe he still has

                 a carton and a half left, would he still be

                 subject to forfeiture of his vehicle, or her

                 vehicle, coming home from vacation under these

                 circumstances?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    This bill makes

                 no distinction.  If there is an illegal

                 importation of cigarettes, they're subject.

                            You understand what this is doing.

                 It's simply expanding to the tax employee of

                 the department the same powers already

                 possessed by the police and by the official -

                 by various other officials.  This is just

                 giving one more set of officials the right to

                 make these arrests.  And this is not plowing

                 any new ground.

                            SENATOR ONORATO:    Thank you.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Madam





                                                          8325



                 President, if the Senator would yield for a

                 brief question.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Goodman,

                 do you yield?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Yes, surely,

                 Senator.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    He does yield.

                 You may proceed.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Senator, I'm

                 interested in the rights of the city as they

                 impinge upon the concept of due process.

                 Moreover, what are the ways in which the owner

                 of the vehicle can challenge the seizure?

                 What are the processes by which we determine

                 where the burden of proof is?

                            And when these matters take place,

                 I'm just trying to ascertain what the actual

                 procedure is by which someone who wants to

                 aver that they have not acted in this fashion

                 can move to try to restore their possession.

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    A determination

                 will be made if there is a wrongful seizure in

                 the matter.  And that's the law as it stands

                 on the books at this time, Senator.  It's a

                 familiar law and one with which I'm sure you,





                                                          8326



                 as a jurisprudential scholar, are fully

                 familiar.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 Stachowski.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    Senator -

                 just a couple of questions, if the Senator

                 would yield.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Goodman,

                 will you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Yes, I will.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    I'm a little

                 confused, only as to how would they know what

                 cars they're stopping, these tax guys?  Would

                 somebody else stop the car?  And then once

                 they stop it, what would give them the right

                 to go through the person's car?  I mean, what

                 would be the reason they stopped this car?

                            For example, if it's a car, like

                 you mentioned, with a trunkful of bootlegged

                 cigarettes, how would they just happen to pick

                 this car going over the George Washington

                 Bridge?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    There are





                                                          8327



                 various intelligence sources which indicate

                 when illicit purchases, illegal purchases have

                 been made of cigarettes.  Often it's those

                 that constitute the tips which enable them to

                 stop cars or really trucks, frequently, which

                 have the cigarettes on board.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    If the

                 Senator would continue to yield.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Goodman,

                 do you continue to yield?

                            You may proceed, Senator.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    I understand

                 that they have this tip.  But what would give

                 them -- that alone would give them enough

                 right to stop this car?  I mean, they wouldn't

                 get thrown out of court?

                            I'm not a lawyer, so bear with me.

                 That would give them enough right to just have

                 the car stopped and searched?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Yes, it would.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    And it would

                 be just -- would it be all the tax people in

                 the City of New York or just certain tax

                 people in the City of New York who would then

                 become peace officers?





                                                          8328



                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    This refers to

                 that group known as tax inspectors.

                            Excuse me, let me be a little more

                 clear on this, Senator.  Hold on just a

                 moment.

                            This would be various employees of

                 the Department of Finance not now authorized

                 to do this.  They would be peace officer -

                 have peace officer designation.  And those

                 employees with such peace officer designation

                 would have the right to make these arrests.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    Madam

                 President, if the Senator would yield for one

                 final question.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Goodman,

                 will you yield?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Yes, I will.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    Senator, do

                 you have any idea how many people we're

                 talking about that have peace officer

                 designation currently that would then be given

                 this power?  I'm just trying to get a -

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    I can only





                                                          8329



                 reflect on what I knew at the time I was the

                 commissioner of the department.  I'd say

                 approximately 25.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    Madam

                 President, I was going to stop, but I have to

                 ask one more question.

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Go right ahead.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You have

                 authorization.  You may proceed, Senator.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    Senator, you

                 don't -- through you, Madam President, you

                 don't believe that that may have increased?

                 Because we're talking about a long time ago.

                 Because obviously you've been here for quite

                 some time.

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    I gave you the

                 information that's now available to me.  If

                 you'd like to research it further, that can be

                 arranged.

                            SENATOR STACHOWSKI:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard on this bill?

                            Then the debate is closed.

                            Senator Montgomery, do you wish to





                                                          8330



                 be heard?

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  If the sponsor would answer just a

                 question that I have, a clarification.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Goodman,

                 would you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Yes.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, thank

                 you.  Senator Goodman, does the law currently

                 allow for more than the seizure of the

                 bootlegged items?  Or in other words -

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    You mean for

                 legitimate cigarettes?

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Is it now

                 possible for a person who is carrying

                 bootlegged cigarettes, as your bill implies,

                 to have those seized but not the vehicle?  Or

                 do we currently have the authority to seize

                 vehicles carrying these cigarettes or carrying

                 bootlegged cigarettes?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    We presently -

                 as I've indicated, the present law exists for

                 a wide variety of officers.  But this





                                                          8331



                 simply -- the purpose of this legislation is

                 simply to add one more category; namely, the

                 peace officers of the Finance Department who

                 are not presently authorized to make such

                 seizures.  And the seizure would include the

                 vehicle itself.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    All right.

                 One more question.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator, do you

                 yield for an additional question?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Yes, I will.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Senator, do

                 we have any idea how many of these seizures

                 have taken place, say in the last couple of

                 years?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Senator, may I

                 just say I can't give you a precise number,

                 but I know that the problem is one that's

                 burgeoning and will be even ever greater as we

                 increase the tax on cigarettes.

                            As you may recall, recent

                 legislation passed by us does increase it very

                 sharply.  And the higher the increase in the





                                                          8332



                 cigarette tax goes, the more likelihood there

                 is smuggling of cigarettes.  So I'd anticipate

                 there'd be a very substantial expansion in the

                 need for this type of policing.

                            And, frankly, I don't think it will

                 scratch the surface.  I'm quite certain from

                 my own experience administering this law

                 previously that there will be very significant

                 leakage of illegal cigarettes into the state

                 of New York, and there will be very little we

                 can do to stop it.  But we'll make our best

                 effort.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    One other

                 question, if I may.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Goodman,

                 will you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Yes, I will.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes.

                 Senator Goodman, what do we have in place to

                 collect based on a person bringing in

                 bootlegged cigarettes?  Is there any

                 compensation that the state gets for evasion

                 of taxes or anything other than just to punish





                                                          8333



                 the person, seize the vehicle?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    I'm not quite

                 sure of the purpose of your -- you're asking

                 is there a bounty on cigarette seizures?  I'm

                 not -

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Is there

                 an avenue to compensate the state for the loss

                 in taxes based on this bootlegging problem?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    No, no,

                 Senator, there's no avenue in place.  I'm not

                 sure what type of an avenue you have.  If

                 you've got one, please let me know.  Because

                 it would be nice to think there's someone up

                 above the clouds who could intervene and

                 compensate us for these losses, but that

                 doesn't exist in the real world.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    So in

                 addition to seizing the person's vehicle,

                 there is no fine involved in terms of tax

                 evasion?

                            SENATOR GOODMAN:    Oh, I see,

                 you're asking about a fine.  Just a minute.

                 Let me check that.

                            There are criminal prosecutions for

                 evasion, and there are fines that are





                                                          8334



                 appertaining thereto.  And there are also

                 restitution provisions within the law.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Okay.  Thank

                 you.  Thank you, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard on this bill?

                            Then the debate is closed.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 57.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Would you please call a Rules

                 Committee meeting in the Majority Conference

                 Room.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Rules Committee in

                 the Majority Conference Room.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.





                                                          8335



                            THE PRESIDENT:    You're welcome.

                            Senator Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  May I have consent to be recorded

                 no on Calendar 505.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Hearing no

                 objection, you will be so recorded as voting

                 in the negative, Senator.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Thank you.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Would you please call up Calendar

                 Number 971.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read Calendar Number 971.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 971, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 1133, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the

                 minimum sentence.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Explanation.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Alesi, an

                 explanation has been requested.

                            SENATOR ALESI:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.





                                                          8336



                            This bill simply makes a technical

                 correction to existing law by removing the

                 word "indeterminate" as it applies to the use

                 of a firearm during the commission of a Class

                 B violent felony.

                            Thank you, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, if I

                 can just ask a question of Senator Alesi.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Alesi,

                 will you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR ALESI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes.

                 Senator Alesi, if I understand the

                 legislation, it is -- it provides

                 additional -- an additional consecutive

                 sentence of five years of imprisonment upon

                 conviction for criminal use of a firearm.  And

                 that sentence should be added to any minimum

                 sentence for any underlying Class B felony.

                            So that means, then, that in

                 addition to any sentence that a person





                                                          8337



                 receives if there is a firearm involved, they

                 get an additional five years automatically, no

                 matter what the primary charge is?

                            SENATOR ALESI:    Through you,

                 Madam President, with all respect to Senator

                 Montgomery, you began your remarks with "if I

                 understand it correctly."  I would

                 respectfully submit that you perhaps don't

                 understand it.

                            That is existing law that you have

                 already described.  This bill simply takes the

                 "indeterminate" and removes it, from saying

                 "indeterminate sentence" to "a sentence."

                            And the reason for that is as

                 applies to this section of law two years ago,

                 those classifications of B felony would all be

                 determinate.  And so this simply closes a

                 loophole.  And the net effect of that is that

                 anyone who is a repeat offender would be

                 covered under this law, just as someone who is

                 a first-time offender already is.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Through you,

                 Mr. President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Alesi,

                 will you yield for an additional question?





                                                          8338



                            SENATOR ALESI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Thank you.

                            Is it the case, Senator, that some

                 of the -- someone with a B felony may not be

                 in fact -- it may not be a violent felony

                 offense, but with this law it would be

                 automatic, an automatic additional five years,

                 determinate?

                            SENATOR ALESI:    Through you,

                 Madam President.  As the law currently exists,

                 passed in this house several years ago and

                 signed into law by the Governor, relative to a

                 B violent felony, anyone who is convicted of a

                 crime such as that while using a gun in the

                 commission of that crime would have an

                 automatic five year add-on.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Thank you.

                 Thank you, Senator.

                            SENATOR ALESI:    Thank you.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard on this bill?

                            Then the debate is closed.





                                                          8339



                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar Number 971 are

                 Senators Duane, Hassell-Thompson, and

                 Montgomery.  Ayes, 54.  Nays, 3.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Duane.

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.  I was out of the chamber at a

                 committee meeting, and I wish to be recorded

                 in the negative, without objection, on

                 Calendar Number 896.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Without

                 objection, you will be so recorded as voting

                 in the negative.

                            Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Could you please call up Calendar

                 Number 976, by Senator Alesi.





                                                          8340



                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read Calendar 976.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 976, by Senator Alesi, Senate Print 3374, an

                 act to amend the Retirement and Social

                 Security Law, in relation to retirement of

                 deputy sheriffs.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Alesi, an

                 explanation has been requested.

                            SENATOR ALESI:    Thank you, Madam

                 President.

                            This is in response to a home rule

                 message that would provide for deputized court

                 security to have the 25 year at 50 percent pay

                 privilege upon their retirement at 25 years.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Madam

                 President, I have one question for Senator

                 Alesi.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Alesi,

                 will you yield for one question?

                            SENATOR ALESI:    It's always my

                 pleasure to yield to Senator Paterson.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,





                                                          8341



                 Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            I'm just asking if there had been

                 any changes or corrections to the bill from

                 last year when the Governor vetoed it.  And I

                 voted for the bill last year and just wouldn't

                 like to see it get vetoed by the Governor

                 again.  And I just wanted an update on what

                 the bill's status for becoming law is.

                            SENATOR ALESI:    Through you,

                 Madam President, thank you, Senator.  There

                 have been some changes.

                            Most significantly, the veto

                 message centered around the fact that last

                 year's bill included civil as well as

                 deputized court security.

                            This bill does not deal with civil.

                 It is strictly relative to deputized court

                 security and recognizes that those deputized

                 court security share some of the same

                 dangerous duties as deputized sheriff's

                 deputies in the jail as well.

                            So in response to your question,

                 the reference to "civil" has been removed.





                                                          8342



                 And that was the main objection in the

                 Governor's veto message.

                            Thank you, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard on this bill?

                            Then the debate is closed.

                            There is a home rule message at the

                 desk.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 5.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            SENATOR MEIER:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Can we please call up Calendar

                 Number 949, by Senator Stafford.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read Calendar Number 949.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 949, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 3481,

                 an act to amend the Executive Law, in relation





                                                          8343



                 to the Emergency Management Assistance

                 Compact.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 an explanation has been requested.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Madam

                 President, I'm very pleased to sponsor and

                 support this bill, which will really put

                 New York State in an organization where many

                 of us feel that it would be helpful to us and

                 others.  It's always good to think of others.

                            And this will establish the

                 Emergency Management Assistance Compact.  It

                 authorizes the state to join this compact, a

                 compact where a number of states cooperate and

                 assist each other if a disaster occurs.

                 Member states are required to formulate

                 procedures for cooperating with other states.

                 A state may also only request assistance after

                 it has declared a state of emergency.

                            Thirty-four states and Congress

                 have already approved the compact.  And this

                 is a department bill from the State Emergency

                 Management Office.  We think it's a good bill.

                            And, Madam President, I can go back





                                                          8344



                 on some of my experience.  I've been a member

                 for a number of years -- I won't tell how many

                 years -- of the Forest Fire Control

                 Commission, which is a group of Northeastern

                 states that support each other on forest

                 fires.  That's changed a bit, however, because

                 of the way that we fight fires.  But

                 cooperation is very important.

                            There is not a concern for a fiscal

                 impact at this time.  And I think it is the

                 right way to go, and I agree with the

                 department.  Thank you.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Madam

                 President, certainly in an emergency or some

                 type of disaster we would want to make it easy

                 for people to come in from out of state or for

                 even our workers to go out of state to assist

                 other states.  And that's probably a real good

                 reason why 34 of the states have ratified the

                 Emergency Management Assistance Compact.

                            However, I'm curious as to why we

                 exact an immunity standard on those workers

                 for any type of misfeasance of duty, rather

                 than an indemnification.





                                                          8345



                            Certainly, such as in Good

                 Samaritan-type legislation, we don't want a

                 person who in good faith goes to the aid of

                 another to be victimized or even sued or in

                 any way be held responsible for a situation

                 that was not caused by them.

                            And certainly we would want a

                 limited standard -- if there was some kind of

                 an accident that occurred during the

                 commission of a Good Samaritan act, we would

                 not want for that person to be held to the

                 same standard as if they were actually just in

                 their day-to-day activities.

                            But nonetheless, there are

                 situations where the definition of good faith

                 certainly calls for subjective determinations.

                 And in the present case, because we're talking

                 about activities that involve what is really

                 an amalgamation of the laws of different

                 states, there are conflicts in those laws.

                 And different states have different standards

                 for what constitutes recklessness and what

                 constitutes improper behavior.

                            And last year I voted against this

                 legislation because I didn't feel that I could





                                                          8346



                 totally understand what those standards are

                 going to be.  So if Senator Stafford would

                 yield for a question.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    By all means.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    My question

                 is, why are we using an immunity standard for

                 any worker who participates in one of these

                 emergency management situations, as opposed to

                 indemnification, if the action -- if the faith

                 of the action is in question?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Madam

                 President, I say this with good humor, I hope.

                 My question is, why doesn't Senator Paterson

                 understand what I told him last year?

                            (Laughter.)

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    But I will say

                 it again, Madam President.

                            When we're talking about a

                 situation where there's a disaster and we're

                 interested in people cooperating and we're

                 interested in meeting that disaster and we

                 want as many people to get the help as we can

                 get, I suggest, Madam President, that we're





                                                          8347



                 not really having on the front burner holding

                 those people liable for what they do.  We want

                 them to be there, to be of assistance.

                            I understand why Senator Paterson

                 asked the question.  I understand the

                 interests involved.  And this time I would

                 suggest that the interest is the people who

                 would be harmed by this disaster.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Please permit me to interrupt

                 briefly, Senator Stafford.

                            Please call an immediate meeting of

                 the Crime and Corrections Committee in the

                 Majority Conference Room, if you would,

                 please.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Crime and Corrections

                 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.

                            Does any other member wish to be

                 heard on this bill?

                            Then the debate is closed.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.





                                                          8348



                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Would you please call up Calendar

                 966, by Senator Stafford.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read Calendar 966.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 966, by Senator Stafford, Senate Print 4236,

                 an act to amend Chapter 688 of the Laws of

                 1955.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There is a home

                 rule message at the desk.

                            Read the last section.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    I would ask that

                 the members take their conversations outside

                 the chambers.

                            Senator Paterson, you did ask for

                 an explanation?

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Yes, I did,





                                                          8349



                 Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 an explanation has been requested.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            This bill involves the Schroon Lake

                 Park District.  And for those of you who don't

                 get into the woods that often, or into the

                 real rural areas, dams are very, very, very

                 important.  And if they aren't replaced and

                 repaired, they can wipe out villages, wipe out

                 highways.  It can be very, very serious.

                            We have a situation in the Schroon

                 Lake area where a dam has to be replaced.  And

                 therefore, they are asking for an increase in

                 the amount that they can borrow so that they

                 can bond this project and amortize it.

                            And it is very important for the

                 environment, it's very important for the

                 wildlife, and it's very important for the

                 people.

                            Thank you.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There is a home

                 rule message at the desk.

                            Does any other member wish to be





                                                          8350



                 heard?

                            Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Yes, Madam

                 President, a brief question, if Senator

                 Stafford would yield.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Stafford,

                 will you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Yes.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Senator, does

                 this legislation cover all of the residents of

                 the town or just those in the park district?

                 Who are -- tell me the class of people that

                 are affected by this legislation.

                            SENATOR STAFFORD:    Just those,

                 Madam President, just those in the park

                 district.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard?

                            Then the debate is closed.

                            There's a home rule message at the

                 desk.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This





                                                          8351



                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Would you please call up Calendar

                 Number 830, by Senator Bonacic.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read Calendar 830.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 830, by Senator Bonacic, Senate Print 5141, an

                 act to amend the Public Authorities Law, in

                 relation to the power of the State of New York

                 Mortgage Agency.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Bonacic,

                 an explanation has been requested.

                            SENATOR BONACIC:    Thank you,

                 Madam President.

                            This is a legislation that will

                 amend the Public Authorities Law in relation

                 to the power of the State of New York Mortgage





                                                          8352



                 Agency, SONYMA, to invest in obligations in

                 which the Comptroller of the State of New York

                 is authorized to invest.

                            Right now we want to give SONYMA

                 the same powers as those of what we call the

                 New York State Housing Finance Agency, HFA, to

                 invest in obligations which the Comptroller is

                 authorized to invest in.

                            This organization, SONYMA, uses

                 their proceeds to lend for one-to-four-unit

                 affordable housing.  And one of the problems

                 is their bonds become due every April 1st and

                 October 1st.  So they're sitting on these

                 revenues, it could be anywhere from

                 $180 million to $200 million.  They want to

                 keep them invested so they're gaining

                 interest, so when the maturity of the debt

                 comes due they can access the money.

                            Right now, they have to look into

                 only long-term security investments and

                 they're prohibited in what we call repurchase

                 agreements.

                            So this is what the purpose of the

                 legislation is.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Paterson.





                                                          8353



                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Madam

                 President, that was outstanding.

                            SENATOR BONACIC:    Thank you very

                 much, Senator Paterson.  I always thought you

                 were intelligent and wise.  Thank you.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The debate is

                 definitely closed.

                            (Laughter.)

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Read the last

                 section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 5.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Would you please call up Calendar

                 Number 810, by Senator Meier.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The Secretary

                 will read Calendar 810.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 810, by Senator Meier, Senate Print 4307, an





                                                          8354



                 act to amend the Social Services Law, in

                 relation to guaranteeing.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:

                 Explanation.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Meier, an

                 explanation has been requested.

                            SENATOR MEIER:    Madam President,

                 with some trepidation following the preceding

                 act, I'll try.

                            The purpose of this bill really is

                 to clarify the legislative intent behind a law

                 that we passed two years ago.  The law that we

                 passed two years ago makes it possible for

                 public assistance recipients who may be

                 working or in other circumstances to forgo

                 their cash assistance and to still maintain

                 their eligibility for child support.

                            What this bill does is makes it

                 quite clear that it is the intent of the

                 Legislature that we are guaranteeing that

                 child support benefit.

                            In order to more fully explain, I

                 can just briefly give you three examples that

                 pretty much covers all of the instances under





                                                          8355



                 which a public assistance recipient would find

                 this beneficial.

                            One would be where a public

                 assistance recipient is actually working but

                 is not receiving enough earnings to fully get

                 off public assistance.  They might be

                 receiving a cash benefit of $20 or even less.

                 It permits them to forgo the cash benefit,

                 keep the public assistance or -- and keep the

                 child support assistance, childcare

                 assistance.  That stops the five-year clock

                 from running on federal participation.

                            The second would be where the

                 absent parent may be faithfully paying child

                 support and where the custodial parent may

                 have little or no cash benefit in actuality

                 coming.  Again, they have the ability then to

                 forgo the cash assistance portion but to

                 remain eligible for childcare.

                            And the third would be where one is

                 an applicant for public assistance.  They may

                 be working and might be eligible for a very

                 small cash assistance allowance.  This permits

                 them, once again, to forgo that cash

                 assistance but to remain entirely eligible for





                                                          8356



                 childcare.

                            This gives the public assistance

                 recipient the option to avoid the catch-22

                 situation, where they can give up the cash

                 assistance, stop the five-year clock from

                 running, but still remain eligible for

                 childcare.

                            Before we passed the 1999 law, the

                 catch-22 was that if you gave up the cash

                 assistance to stop the five-year clock from

                 running, even though it might be as little as

                 $20 or even $10, because you're no longer a

                 full-blown public assistance case, you lose

                 your eligibility for childcare.

                            So we're trying to clarify the

                 legislative intent and to make it easier for

                 that public assistance recipient to work.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator

                 Hassell-Thompson.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Thank

                 you, Madam President.  If the Senator will

                 yield just for a couple of questions.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Meier,

                 will you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    Yes, I would,





                                                          8357



                 Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    First,

                 let me say I am truly in support of the bill,

                 particularly in the way that you've explained

                 it.  But there are just a couple of concerns

                 that I have, not about the bill but the bill

                 intent.

                            If the intent of the legislation is

                 to guarantee childcare assistance to families,

                 wouldn't be it be feasible to attach funding

                 to this legislation, since the Executive's

                 proposed budget for 2001-2002 supports the

                 current level of 174,000 childcare subsidies?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    Well, Madam

                 President, the answer to that is the funding

                 is there.  Because remember, this is an

                 either-or situation.  This is someone who

                 would be eligible for public assistance in any

                 event.  And what this does is it permits that

                 person to receive only the childcare portion

                 and to forgo a very minimal amount of cash

                 assistance.

                            So what it seeks to avoid is the





                                                          8358



                 type of catch-22 situation where we have some

                 Social Services districts literally requiring

                 someone, in order to receive childcare so they

                 can continue to work, to be a full-blown

                 public assistance recipient.

                            So I would argue, Madam President,

                 that really that instance costs more money

                 than when we simply permit someone to receive

                 childcare so they can work.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    If the

                 Senator will continue to yield.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Meier, do

                 you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    Yes, I would,

                 Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    You've

                 explained -- in your explanation of the bill,

                 you very carefully talked about the recipient

                 who has not yet used up their five years of

                 federal benefits.

                            My question is, are families

                 eligible for childcare subsidies after they

                 have used up their five years?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    Yes, they are.





                                                          8359



                 They would be eligible for transitional

                 benefits for a period of up to one year, where

                 the children are 13 years of age or younger.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Or

                 whichever comes first?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    You're talking

                 about -- when you say whichever comes first,

                 you mean the age of the child or the -

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Age of

                 the child or the year of the benefits.

                            SENATOR MEIER:    No, I think the

                 benefit would end when the child reaches 13

                 years of age.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    If the

                 Senator would continue to yield, Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Meier, do

                 you continue to yield?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    Yes, Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator Hassell-Thompson.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    How

                 many families do we anticipate will roll over

                 to the safety net program at the end of this





                                                          8360



                 year, and how many will be eligible for

                 guaranteed childcare subsidies?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    I think we're

                 looking at around 90,000 families statewide,

                 at the present time, look like they might wind

                 up in the safety net.  Approximately 75,000 of

                 those families would be in the New York City

                 area; the balance in the rest of the state, of

                 course.

                            It would depend upon whether they

                 meet the existing eligibility criteria of

                 having a child 13 years of age or younger and

                 requiring the childcare assistance to meet

                 some activity approved as work.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    If the

                 Senator would continue to yield, Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator, do you

                 continue to yield?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    Yes, I do, Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Thank

                 you.  Madam President, through you.

                            Senator, are you aware that in





                                                          8361



                 New York City alone that there's a waiting

                 list of over 40,000 children for subsidized

                 childcare slots?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    I'm aware there's

                 a waiting list in the City of New York as well

                 as some other counties around the state.

                            And the interesting thing about

                 this bill, once again, is that I think it may

                 encourage local Social Services districts to

                 try to do more planning to make more childcare

                 available without a waiting list.

                            Because -- and I would point out

                 that Governor Pataki has consistently

                 increased funding in budgets for childcare

                 slots.

                            But not only that.  Remember, under

                 this legislation, these local Social Services

                 districts, be they the City of New York or

                 counties on the Island or upstate, are paying

                 this money out anyway to people as full-blown

                 public assistance recipients.  It would

                 certainly be much more to their advantage to

                 pay the money out in the form of childcare and

                 to make planning for those slots.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    If the





                                                          8362



                 Senator would continue to yield.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Meier, do

                 you yield?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    Yes, Madam

                 President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed,

                 Senator.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Thank

                 you, Madam President.  Through you.

                            Senator, you just generated another

                 question.  Having met just this past week with

                 people from parts of my district, the

                 Childcare Council, to talk about some of these

                 childcare issues and what the impact is just

                 currently, not even including those that at

                 the end of this year that will -- where the

                 sunset will fall on those who will no longer

                 be eligible, my sense is that this bill will

                 kick in and will continue to support a

                 tremendous number of them.

                            But the problem goes to the issue

                 that you just raised.  Counties -- and

                 particularly Westchester County has threatened

                 not to continue to pay its portion and wants

                 the state -- wants to see the state pay a





                                                          8363



                 greater portion of childcare support payments,

                 as opposed to what is currently being paid.

                 And also, the Childcare Council is pushing to

                 have parents -- have a cap put on the portion

                 that parents can afford to pay.

                            What do you think this bill is

                 going to do in terms of the number of slots

                 that are -- currently that are needed, and in

                 addition to those slots that may not be filled

                 because there is not the kind of county

                 support, and if -- and if the state does not

                 up the ante in terms of the amount that it is

                 currently putting in?

                            SENATOR MEIER:    Well, we're

                 getting into something that is somewhat apart

                 from this bill.  But let me just peel that

                 apart a little bit.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Okay.

                            SENATOR MEIER:    In terms of the

                 amount that parents are required to pay, we

                 are working on a bill and we're trying to get

                 a handle on the fiscal implications of what

                 happens when we play with that cap.  And I'd

                 be happy to separately have a discussion with

                 you about that.





                                                          8364



                            And, you know, this gets

                 complicated.  We have to be very careful that

                 we don't impose additional unfunded mandates

                 on the county.  This bill works with money

                 that is guaranteed, that flows in any event.

                 The question is whether it flows to fund a

                 full-blown public assistance case or a

                 childcare-only case with perhaps some other

                 supportive benefits.

                            But I think, Senator, you're

                 highlighting something that is very critical.

                 The people have children, the children have to

                 be cared for if we expect them to work.  And

                 it's something that I know the Governor has

                 paid a great deal of attention to, we have

                 paid attention to.  And -- but we need to look

                 at it further.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Thank

                 you.

                            On the bill.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed

                 on the bill, Senator.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Just

                 briefly.

                            As I see the bill, potentially





                                                          8365



                 New York State could save a lot of money.  And

                 having had a conversation with Senator Meier,

                 I know that that was not the intent of this

                 bill.  But certainly New York State is always

                 happy if in fact it does save money.  But this

                 bill, however -

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Excuse me,

                 Senator.

                            Senator Balboni, why do you rise?

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    I apologize.

                 We're just trying to get some committee

                 meetings going.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    And

                 it's my Transportation, so I hope you'll wait.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    No, it's not.

                 It's Higher Education.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Good.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Higher

                 Education in Room 328, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There will be a

                 Higher Education Committee meeting in

                 Room 328.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Thank you.  My

                 apologies.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Excuse us.  You





                                                          8366



                 may proceed, Senator Hassell-Thompson.

                            SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON:    Thank

                 you.  I was just hoping to get this bill done

                 before Transportation.  Thank you.

                            But this bill, as I see it, does

                 not address the problems -- some of the

                 problems of childcare, such as the lengthy

                 waiting lists, standard care, and high cost to

                 families.

                            I do appreciate the thoughtfulness

                 of the way in which Senator Meier not only

                 answered the questions but certainly in the

                 way that he is crafting the bill.  And I would

                 like to say to him that I will support this

                 bill and will accept his invitation to

                 participate with him in an ongoing way to

                 craft other portions of this bill as we look

                 at childcare for the state of New York.

                            Thank you, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Does any other

                 member wish to be heard on this bill?

                            Senator Oppenheimer.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    Thank you.

                 On the bill.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    You may proceed





                                                          8367



                 on the bill, Senator.

                            SENATOR OPPENHEIMER:    This is a

                 very good bill.

                            And one of our concerns is that

                 either when people leave government assistance

                 that they don't have the care necessary for

                 health for their children, they don't have the

                 money necessary for transportation.  Too many

                 things evaporate when you give up the basic

                 subsidies.

                            So this is an excellent bill,

                 because it says we will continue paying for

                 childcare or a portion of that subsidy.

                            I just want to underline what

                 Senator Hassell-Thompson has said.  We are so

                 far from meeting the needs of our low-income

                 residents as far as childcare that there

                 simply has to be some new thinking, somewhat

                 out of the box, which is going to address the

                 issue of subsidizing our low-income neighbors.

                            They are working full-time, in many

                 cases, both parents.  And the situation that

                 presents itself with a lack of available

                 subsidized childcare in a quality setting with

                 teachers who are skilled is simply appalling.





                                                          8368



                 And we must turn our attention to it.

                            And I'd be delighted to sit down

                 with anyone and discuss this, because we must

                 do something.

                            Thank you.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Would you please call a meeting of

                 the Transportation Committee in the Majority

                 Conference Room.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Transportation

                 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.

                            Does any other member wish to be

                 heard on this bill?

                            Then the debate is closed.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Call the roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    The bill is

                 passed.

                            Senator Dollinger.





                                                          8369



                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Madam

                 President, could I have unanimous consent to

                 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number

                 768, which is one of Senator Balboni's

                 property tax exemption bills.

                            Thank you, Madam President.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Without

                 objection, you will be so recorded as voting

                 in the negative, Senator Dollinger.

                            Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Madam

                 President.  Could we please return to the

                 reports of standing committees.  There is a

                 Rules report at the desk.

                            THE PRESIDENT:    Reports of

                 standing committees.

                            The Secretary will read.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Thank you.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator Bruno,

                 from the Committee on Rules, reports the

                 following bills:

                            Senate Print 85, by Senator Skelos,

                 an act to amend the Civil Rights Law.

                            2540, by Senator Leibell, an act in

                 relation to maintaining.





                                                          8370



                            2546, by Senator Marchi, an act to

                 amend the Not-for-Profit Corporation Law.

                            2711, by Senator Padavan, an act to

                 amend the Penal Law.

                            3408, by Senator Velella, an act to

                 amend the Penal Law.

                            4327, by Senator Volker, an act to

                 amend the Criminal Procedure Law.

                            4371A, by Senator Seward, an act to

                 amend the Criminal Procedure Law.

                            4454, by Senator Leibell, an act to

                 amend the Public Officers Law.

                            4517, by Senator McGee, an act

                 authorizing the conveyance.

                            4840, by Senator Stafford, an act

                 to authorize the reopening.

                            5090A, by Senator Connor, an act to

                 authorize the St. Anne's School.

                            5297, by Senator Volker, an act to

                 amend the Public Authorities Law.

                            5299, by Senator Johnson, an act to

                 amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.

                            5322, by Senator LaValle, an act to

                 amend the Town Law.

                            5368, by Senator Skelos, an act to





                                                          8371



                 amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991.

                            5377, by Senator Balboni, an act in

                 relation to authorizing.

                            And 5394, by Senator Lack, an act

                 to amend Chapter 83 of the Laws of 1995.

                            All bills ordered direct to third

                 reading.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, Mr.

                 President.  I move to accept the report of the

                 Rules Committee.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    All

                 those in favor of accepting the report of the

                 Rules Committee signify by saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 report of the Rules Committee is accepted.

                            All bills directly to third

                 reading.

                            Senator Balboni.

                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Yes, could we





                                                          8372



                 please take up Calendar 984.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read Calendar 984.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 984, by Senator Lack, Senate Print 5394, an

                 act to amend Chapter 83 of the Laws of 1995

                 amending the State Finance Law.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 is there a message of necessity at the desk?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Yes,

                 there is, Senator.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Move to accept.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 question is on accepting the message of

                 necessity.  All those in favor signify by

                 saying aye.

                            (Response of "Aye.")

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Opposed,

                 nay.

                            (No response.)

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 message is accepted.  The bill is before the

                 house.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator





                                                          8373



                 Lack, an explanation has been requested by

                 Senator Dollinger.

                            SENATOR LACK:    This is a

                 three-way agreement to end sequestration.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Mr.

                 President, will the sponsor yield to just one

                 question.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Lack, do you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR LACK:    One question, yes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields for one question.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    How does this

                 bill and the permanent repeal of the

                 sequestration rule, how does it affect a death

                 case?  How would you see it being handled in a

                 death case?

                            SENATOR LACK:    There was

                 consideration given, Mr. President, to special

                 rules in a death case.  After due deliberation

                 and discussions between the Senate, the

                 Assembly, and the Governor's office, up to and

                 including last night, there is no effect





                                                          8374



                 whatsoever given to a death case over any

                 other case, except for the fact, of course,

                 that a judge in any trial in which he or she

                 determines it's necessary can order a jury

                 sequestered.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Through you,

                 Mr. President.  First of all, thank you to

                 Senator Lack for the response to the question

                 and the update on those negotiations.

                            I'm going to vote in favor of this

                 bill, as I have for other extensions of the

                 repeal of the sequestration rule, but I do it

                 with one caveat.  And that is, I would

                 strongly urge judges in death cases to very

                 carefully review the issue of jury

                 sequestration during the process of

                 deliberation.

                            Because, while sequestration may

                 not be required during the presentation of

                 evidence, at the point of deliberation, when

                 we rely on our twelve-member juries to decide

                 both the effect -- the liability portion of

                 the trial and the sentence portion of the

                 trial, I'm actually more concerned about the

                 sentence portion because of the risk that, as





                                                          8375



                 oftentimes has happened in our county, where

                 we've had three death cases, there's constant

                 speculation in the media and in the printed

                 newspapers about what effect certain evidence

                 will have on the imposition of the death

                 sentence.

                            And I'm concerned, and I would

                 strongly urge -- while I believe we have to

                 vest trial judges with the discretion to do

                 this, I would just strongly urge that the

                 trial judges of this state, who I have a lot

                 of confidence in, should very, very carefully

                 examine a request for sequestration during

                 both the liability but, even more importantly,

                 during the sentence portion of capital cases,

                 because of the great danger that commentary in

                 the media during the deliberation phase could

                 substantially impact the result.

                            I've agreed with eliminating

                 sequestration.  I think -- I have confidence

                 that our judges will do the right thing.  I

                 would just strongly urge, Mr. President, as my

                 own little commentary on this bill, that the

                 state trial judges look very carefully and

                 strongly consider sequestering trial jurors





                                                          8376



                 during the deliberation of both liability and

                 sentencing phase in capital cases.

                            And I thank, by the way, the

                 chairman of the Judiciary Committee for his

                 work on this bill in making this happen.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Mr. President,

                 I concur with Senator Dollinger's feelings but

                 would add to them that if the issue is one

                 that there will be a greater onus on our trial

                 judges, particularly during the liability

                 stage, to be making the determination as to

                 whether or not the jury is sequestered, I

                 would just like to point out that it also has

                 a kind of corollary effect on the use of

                 cameras in the courtroom.

                            If there are going to be cameras in

                 the courtroom and the juries are not going to

                 be sequestered, that only adds to the fears

                 that Senator Dollinger just expressed, where

                 you might have an unintentional taint of the

                 process because of the heightened interest in

                 the case and also the tremendous availability

                 of the media in that regard.





                                                          8377



                            So if we are going to continue

                 cameras in the courtroom, I think that's

                 something that the judges are going to have to

                 take into consideration, along with the issues

                 that exist in terms of jury sequestration as

                 it stands.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Any

                 other Senator wish to be heard on the bill?

                            Hearing none, debate is closed.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 would you please call up Calendar Number 983.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read Calendar 983.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 983, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 5368, an





                                                          8378



                 act to amend Chapter 704 of the Laws of 1991.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Skelos, an explanation has been requested by

                 Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Thank you.

                            This bill would extend the sunset

                 provisions of Article 25 of the Arts and

                 Cultural Affairs Law, also known as the

                 ticket-scalping legislation, to June 20, 2001.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Mr. President,

                 a brief question, if Senator Skelos is in a

                 mood to yield.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Skelos, do you yield for a question?

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    I shall.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    I assume that

                 what we're really trying to do is to negotiate

                 for something a lot longer and more





                                                          8379



                 comprehensive, and that's what we need the

                 time for.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    I'm delighted to

                 yield to you and answer yes.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Then I am

                 similarly delighted.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Any

                 other Senator wish to be heard on the bill?

                            Hearing none, debate is closed.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Duane, why do you rise?

                            SENATOR DUANE:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.  With unanimous consent, I'd like

                 to be recorded in the negative on Calendar

                 Number 949.  I was out of the room in a

                 committee meeting when it came up for a vote.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Without





                                                          8380



                 objection, Senator Duane will be recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar Number 949.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 would you please call up Calendar Number 978,

                 by Senator Johnson.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read Calendar 978.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 978, by Senator Johnson, Senate Print 4512, an

                 act to amend the Criminal Procedure Law, in

                 relation to prohibiting issuance.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Read the

                 last section.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Johnson, an explanation has been requested by

                 Senator Dollinger.

                            SENATOR JOHNSON:    Mr. President,

                 this provides that those convicted of sodomy

                 and rape in the second and third degrees,

                 which are D and E class felony sex crimes,

                 would not be released -- those convicted of

                 those crimes would not be released upon their

                 own recognizance or upon bail pending appeal





                                                          8381



                 of their conviction.

                            And the process of appeal is being

                 expedited in this case by -- the appeal must

                 be perfected within 60 days and completed

                 within 120 days.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Dollinger.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Through you,

                 Mr. President, if Senator Johnson will just

                 yield to one question.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Johnson, do you yield for a question?

                            The sponsor yields.

                            SENATOR JOHNSON:    Yes.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Senator

                 Johnson, just so I know, how have generally

                 the rules for expedited appeals worked in

                 other contexts?

                            My only concern is, Senator

                 Johnson, as a practitioner largely in the

                 Fourth Department, we can wait sometimes as

                 long as a year for an opinion or for a

                 decision to come down from the appellate

                 courts.  And I'm just concerned that even with

                 an attempt to expedite it, we may not get to





                                                          8382



                 that goal.

                            I understand that the purpose is to

                 deny an order of recognizance or bail for

                 someone who is convicted while they await

                 their appeal.  But my only question is, how

                 realistic is this that you think we'll get

                 quicker decisions from the appellate division?

                            SENATOR JOHNSON:    I hope it's

                 more realistic than the rule about getting our

                 budget on time.

                            I trust that the courts will see

                 that this is expedited according to the law

                 which we're passing today.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    So, Senator

                 Johnson, you're suggesting that expedited for

                 the courts should mean something different

                 than April 1st for the Legislature?

                            SENATOR JOHNSON:    Jim Lack told

                 me judges are special people.

                            SENATOR DOLLINGER:    Through you,

                 Mr. President, I'm going to vote in favor of

                 this bill.  I think this is a reasonable

                 restriction to reduce both bail and ROR

                 releases for those who have already been

                 convicted.





                                                          8383



                            And I think it's important, as

                 Senator Johnson points out, these are people

                 who have been found guilty.  And the question

                 is if we can arrange an expedited appeal.  I'm

                 just always a bit leery about the notion of

                 expedited appeals.  It means they're processed

                 quicker to the courts, but it doesn't

                 necessarily mean the court's decision is

                 rendered as promptly as we would like it.

                            So I'll vote in favor and I'll wait

                 and see what happens, Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Any

                 other Senator wish to be heard?

                            Debate is closed.

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 5.  This

                 act shall take effect immediately.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 58.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Please call up





                                                          8384



                 Calendar 846, by Senator Saland.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read Calendar 846.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 846, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4234, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

                 establishing.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 if we could just stand at ease, I believe

                 Senator Saland is in a Higher Ed Committee

                 meeting.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Senate will stand at ease.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 while we're waiting, could we please lay aside

                 for the day Calendar Number 847 and Calendar

                 876, at the request of the sponsors.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

                 Calendars 847 and 876 will be laid aside at

                 the request of the sponsors.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,





                                                          8385



                 is there any housekeeping at the desk?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    We have

                 some motions, Senator Skelos.

                            Senator Farley.

                            SENATOR FARLEY:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            On behalf of Senator Rath, would

                 you please remove the sponsor's star from

                 Calendar 136.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    So

                 ordered.

                            SENATOR FARLEY:    On behalf of

                 Senator Wright, Mr. President, I move, on page

                 51, the following amendments to Calendar

                 Number 836, Senate Print 3499, and I ask that

                 that bill retain its place on the Third

                 Reading Calendar.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 amendments are received and adopted, and the

                 bill will retain its place on the Third

                 Reading Calendar.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 at this time would you please call up calendar

                 846, by Senator Saland.





                                                          8386



                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Secretary will read Calendar 846.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number

                 846, by Senator Saland, Senate Print 4234, an

                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to

                 establishing.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Explanation.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Saland, an explanation has been requested of

                 Calendar 846 by Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR SALAND:    Thank you, Mr.

                 President.

                            Mr. President, this is a bill which

                 in many respects is a companion to the bill

                 that we did yesterday, the purpose of which

                 really is to deal with the issue of abduction

                 of children by family members.

                            What this bill would do would be to

                 create a rebuttable presumption that a person

                 who removes a child does so -- who removes a

                 child in violation of a court order does so

                 with the knowledge that in fact he or she is

                 violating that court order.

                            And we create a mechanism whereby

                 substituted service can be accomplished to





                                                          8387



                 give notice to that person of the entry of

                 that order.  And the order is critical in that

                 it triggers the involvement of the FBI.

                            Without having this order of

                 custody, which can be stymied by a parent

                 abducting with the child and absenting

                 themselves from a jurisdiction, you cannot

                 bring in the FBI.  And obviously, the earlier

                 you bring in the FBI, the greater the

                 likelihood of a successful investigation.

                            The numbers are staggering.  Some

                 350,000 or more children are abducted during

                 the course of the year nationally, and some

                 75 percent of those children are generally

                 taken by a family member.

                            This is an effort to, at the very

                 least, level the playing field and give the

                 aggrieved parent the opportunity to as quickly

                 as possible regain access to his or her child,

                 and certainly to spare the extraordinary

                 trauma and anguish associated with these types

                 of abductions, to spare the child that type of

                 anguish.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Paterson.





                                                          8388



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 may I interrupt for one second.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    I'm

                 sorry, Senator Paterson.

                            I'm sorry, Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    There will be an

                 immediate meeting of the Veterans Committee in

                 the Majority Conference Room.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:

                 Immediate meeting of the Veterans Committee in

                 the Majority Conference Room.

                            Senator Paterson.

                            SENATOR PATERSON:    Mr. President,

                 this bill was laid aside by Senator Smith.

                 The record will reflect that last year

                 Senators Smith and DeFrancisco voted no.  She

                 is currently in the Transportation Committee

                 meeting, and therefore she may want to record

                 her vote later.

                            But I just wanted to put that on

                 the record.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Any

                 other Senator wish to be heard on the bill?

                            Read the last section.

                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This





                                                          8389



                 act shall take effect on the first day of

                 November.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Call the

                 roll.

                            (The Secretary called the roll.)

                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 57.  Nays,

                 1.  Senator Montgomery recorded in the

                 negative.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The bill

                 is passed.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 perhaps we can just stand at ease for a

                 moment, as members come back from the

                 committee meeting, so they could record their

                 votes.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    The

                 Senate will stand at ease.

                            (Whereupon, the Senate stood at

                 ease at 1:10 p.m.)

                            (Whereupon, the Senate reconvened

                 at 1:15 p.m.)

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Skelos.





                                                          8390



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Would you please

                 recognize Senator Ada Smith.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Senator

                 Ada Smith.

                            SENATOR ADA SMITH:    Thank you,

                 Mr. President.  I request unanimous consent to

                 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number

                 846, Bill Number S4234.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Without

                 objection, Senator Ada Smith will be recorded

                 in the negative on Calendar 846.

                            Senator Montgomery.

                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, Mr.

                 President, I would like unanimous consent to

                 be recorded in the negative on Calendar Number

                 844.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Without

                 objection, Senator Montgomery will be recorded

                 in the negative on Calendar 844.

                            Senator Lachman.

                            SENATOR LACHMAN:    Yes, Mr.

                 President, I would request unanimous consent

                 now to be recorded in the negative on Item

                 505, Calendar Number 505.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    Without





                                                          8391



                 objection, Senator Lachman will be recorded in

                 the negative on Calendar 505.

                            Senator Skelos.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,

                 is there any housekeeping at the desk?

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    No,

                 there is not, Senator.

                            SENATOR SKELOS:    There being no

                 further business, I move we adjourn until

                 Thursday, May 31st, at 11:00 a.m.

                            ACTING PRESIDENT MEIER:    On

                 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until

                 Thursday, May 31st, at 11:00 a.m.

                            (Whereupon, at 1:17 p.m., the

                 Senate adjourned.)