Regular Session - February 24, 2003

                                                            633







                           NEW YORK STATE SENATE











                          THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD



















                             ALBANY, NEW YORK



                             February 24, 2003



                                 3:17 p.m.











                              REGULAR SESSION















            SENATOR JOSEPH E. ROBACH, Acting President



            STEVEN M. BOGGESS, Secretary































                                                        634







                           P R O C E E D I N G S



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 Senate will come to order.



                            I ask everyone present to please



                 rise and repeat with me the Pledge of



                 Allegiance.



                            (Whereupon, the assemblage recited



                 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    In the



                 absence of clergy, may we all bow our heads



                 for a moment of silence.



                            (Whereupon, the assemblage



                 respected a moment of silence.)



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Reading



                 of the Journal.



                            THE SECRETARY:    In Senate,



                 Sunday, February 23, the Senate met pursuant



                 to adjournment.  The Journal of Saturday,



                 February 22, was read and approved.  On



                 motion, Senate adjourned.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Without



                 objection, the Journal stands approved as



                 read.



                            Presentation of petitions.



                            Messages from the Assembly.







                                                        635







                            Messages from the Governor.



                            Reports of standing committees.



                            The Secretary will read.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator Hoffmann,



                 from the Committee on Agriculture, reports the



                 following bills:



                            Senate Print 188, by Senator



                 Hoffmann, an act to amend the Agriculture and



                 Markets Law;



                            616, by Senator Hoffmann, an act to



                 amend the Agriculture and Markets Law;



                            And Senate Print 1973, by Senator



                 Kuhl, an act to amend the Agriculture and



                 Markets Law.



                            All bills ordered direct to third



                 reading.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Without



                 objection, the bills are reported direct to



                 third reading.



                            Reports of select committees.



                            Communications and reports from



                 state officers.



                            Motions and resolutions.



                            Senator Farley.



                            SENATOR FARLEY:    Thank you, Mr.







                                                        636







                 President.



                            On behalf of Senator LaValle, on



                 page 6 I offer the following amendments to



                 Calendar 58, Senate Print 296, and I ask that



                 that bill retain its place on the Third



                 Reading Calendar.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 amendments are received and adopted, and the



                 bill will take its place on the Third Reading



                 Calendar.



                            Senator Little.



                            SENATOR LITTLE:    Mr. President, I



                 wish to call up my bill, Print Number 741,



                 recalled from the Assembly, which is now at



                 the desk.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 Secretary will read.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number



                 50, by Senator Little, Senate Print 741, an



                 act making certain findings and



                 determinations.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Little.



                            SENATOR LITTLE:    Mr. President, I



                 now move to reconsider the vote by which this







                                                        637







                 bill was passed.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 Secretary will call the roll on



                 reconsideration.



                            (The Secretary called the roll.)



                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 48.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Little.



                            SENATOR LITTLE:    Mr. President, I



                 now offer the following amendments.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 amendments are received and adopted.



                            Senator Skelos.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,



                 are there any substitutions at the desk?



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Yes,



                 there are.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    I ask that they



                 be made at this time.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 Secretary will read.



                            THE SECRETARY:    On page 8,



                 Senator Velella moves to discharge, from the



                 Committee on Higher Education, Assembly Bill



                 Number 1409 and substitute it for the







                                                        638







                 identical Senate Bill Number 759, Third



                 Reading Calendar 91.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:



                 Substitution ordered.



                            Senator Skelos.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    There will be an



                 immediate meeting of the Children and Families



                 Committee in the Majority Conference Room.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    There



                 will be an immediate meeting of the Committee



                 on Children and Families in the Majority



                 Conference Room.



                            Senator Skelos.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,



                 there's a privileged resolution at the desk by



                 Senator Volker.  May we please have the title



                 read and move for its immediate adoption.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 Secretary will read.



                            THE SECRETARY:    By Senator



                 Volker, Legislative Resolution Number 483,



                 commemorating the 25th anniversary of the



                 Displaced Homemaker Program.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Volker.







                                                        639







                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Mr. President,



                 this is a resolution, as was previously read,



                 that honors a group of women, and a group that



                 is now operating across the state, that takes



                 care of people who have had various problems,



                 through no fault of their own, and tries to



                 help them out.  I think that it is a very good



                 organization that this house and the Assembly



                 has funded for many years.



                            The resolution is sponsored by all



                 the Western New York delegation, but I'd like



                 to offer sponsorship or cosponsorship to



                 anybody in the Senate who would like to be on



                 it.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 question is on the resolution.  All in favor



                 say aye.



                            (Response of "Aye.")



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:



                 Opposed, say nay.



                            (No response.)



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 resolution is adopted.



                            Senator Skelos.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,







                                                        640







                 if we could go to the noncontroversial reading



                 of the calendar.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 Secretary will read.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number



                 44, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 554, an



                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to



                 sentencing of persistent violent felony



                 offenders.



                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Lay it



                 aside.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 bill is laid aside.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number



                 59, by Senator Balboni, Senate Print 857, an



                 act to amend --



                            SENATOR BALBONI:    Senator Robach,



                 I'd like to lay that bill aside, please.



                            Mr. President.  President Robach.



                 Thank you.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    For the



                 day?



                            SENATOR BALBONI:    For the day.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    How



                 about the session?







                                                        641







                            (Laughter.)



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 bill is laid aside for the day.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number



                 73, by Senator Marcellino, Senate Print 785,



                 an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law,



                 in relation to increasing penalties.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Read



                 the last section.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 2.  This



                 act shall take effect immediately.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Call



                 the roll.



                            (The Secretary called the roll.)



                            THE SECRETARY:    Ayes, 54.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 bill is passed.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number



                 76, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 665, an



                 act to amend the Penal Law and the Criminal



                 Procedure Law, in relation to the offenses of



                 bail jumping.



                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Lay it



                 aside.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The







                                                        642







                 bill is laid aside.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number



                 77, by Senator Padavan, Senate Print 685, an



                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to the



                 piercing and branding of the body of a child



                 under the age of 18 years.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Read



                 the last section.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 3.  This



                 act shall take effect on the first day of



                 November.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Call



                 the roll.



                            (The Secretary called the roll.)



                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in



                 the negative on Calendar Number 77 are



                 Senators Parker and Schneiderman.  Also



                 Senator Duane.  Ayes, 51.  Nays, 3.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 bill is passed.



                            Senator Skelos, that completes the



                 noncontroversial reading of the calendar.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,



                 if we could go to the controversial reading of



                 the calendar.







                                                        643







                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 Secretary will read.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number



                 44, by Senator Skelos, Senate Print 554, an



                 act to amend the Penal Law, in relation to



                 sentencing of persistent violent felony



                 offenders.



                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:



                 Explanation.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Skelos.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,



                 this legislation -- which has passed the



                 Senate in 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001 -- would



                 eliminate discretionary parole for violent



                 felony offenders who have been convicted and



                 sentenced for three or more violent felonies



                 within a ten-year period.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Schneiderman.



                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    Thank you,



                 Mr. President.  On the bill very briefly.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    On the



                 bill.



                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:    This







                                                        644







                 legislation is a part of an ongoing process to



                 transfer discretion over sentencing -- not to



                 eliminate discretion over sentencing from the



                 criminal justice system, but simply to



                 transfer it from judges to prosecutors.



                            And I would urge my colleagues



                 that, as has often been said, absolute power



                 corrupts absolutely.  We're getting to a



                 situation where prosecutorial control over



                 sentencing is becoming a serious problem.



                            I would call my colleagues'



                 attentions to a study by the Criminal Justice



                 Policy Foundation, in which the president of



                 that institution, Eric Sterling, stated:  "The



                 entire criminal justice system knows that



                 perjury is the coin of the realm.  People's



                 homes are invaded because of lies, people go



                 to prison because of lies, people stay in



                 prison because of lies, and sometimes bad guys



                 go free because of lies."



                            What he's referring to is this



                 phenomenon that is becoming widespread, which



                 is that in the absence of any judicial outlet,



                 prosecutors are essentially in a position to



                 coerce testimony out of people, because if







                                                        645







                 they charge a crime that requires life



                 imprisonment, that's the price you're going to



                 pay.  And if you have any way to get out,



                 including making up testimony to get an



                 alleged coconspirator in with you, you will do



                 that.



                            So I would urge that we really



                 should think more carefully before increasing



                 prosecutorial control over the sentencing



                 process.  We've increased, in 1995, the



                 mandatory sentence for the sorts of defendants



                 that would be addressed under this



                 legislation.



                            Again, the crime rate has been



                 going steadily down.  It does not appear that



                 from any sort of public policy point of view



                 the criminal justice system requires more



                 severe sentences.



                            And again, this is not a situation,



                 I would urge, in which we're eliminating



                 discretion, this is a situation in which we're



                 shifting discretion.  I would like to see



                 judges and parole boards continue to play a



                 role.



                            Having worked in a prison, I







                                                        646







                 certainly don't like the idea of these people



                 doing time without any possible incentive to



                 behave while they're serving their sentences.



                 And I certainly also do think -- and I have



                 many friends who are prosecutors -- that it's



                 just too tempting and it's too tempting to



                 criminal defendants.



                            A defense lawyer has commented that



                 he stopped representing people who are



                 cooperating with prosecutors because for those



                 defendants you just don't have to teach them



                 how to sing, you have to teach them how to



                 compose.  I think that's a lot of what's going



                 on now in our criminal justice system.



                            I'm going to vote no on this, and I



                 also would urge a no vote from my colleagues.



                 Thank you.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Montgomery.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, Mr.



                 President, just briefly on this bill.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    On the



                 bill.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    I have voted



                 no in the past and will vote no again today.







                                                        647







                            I think that one of the issues -- a



                 couple of issues that I have, in addition to



                 those raised by my colleague, is, one, on the



                 fiscal implications.



                            Senator Skelos, the author of this



                 legislation, sponsor of this legislation,



                 indicates that the fiscal impact is yet to be



                 determined.  He does acknowledge that there



                 will be an increase in incarceration costs.



                 So we don't know -- we have no idea how much



                 more we're going to have to spend if this



                 legislation passes.



                            The other issue that I raised, I



                 recall, I believe last year or the year



                 before, was that this bill essentially is a



                 "two strikes and you're in for life without



                 the possibility of parole."  And we know that



                 in cases where this kind of legislation has



                 been passed in other states, the costs to them



                 have been enormous.  And it's questionable as



                 to whether or not this really is an answer to



                 the issue that is being addressed here.



                            So I'm going to continue to vote no



                 on it, and I would urge my colleagues that



                 this is quite an irresponsible approach to







                                                        648







                 dealing with the issue of incarceration and



                 crime in our state, because it is going to



                 essentially break us as it relates to the cost



                 of this bill.  So I'm going to vote no on it.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Thank



                 you, Senator Montgomery.



                            Is there any other Senator wishing



                 to be heard on this bill?  If none, debate is



                 closed.



                            Read the last section.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 4.  This



                 act shall take effect on the first day of



                 November.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Call



                 the roll.



                            (The Secretary called the roll.)



                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in



                 the negative on Calendar Number 44 are



                 Senators Andrews, Dilán, Duane,



                 Hassell-Thompson, Montgomery, Parker,



                 Paterson, Schneiderman, and A. Smith.  Ayes,



                 48.  Nays, 9.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 bill is passed.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Calendar Number







                                                        649







                 76, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 665, an



                 act to amend the Penal Law and the Criminal



                 Procedure Law, in relation to the offenses of



                 bail jumping.



                            SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN:



                 Explanation.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Volker.



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Mr. President,



                 this is an old City of New York bill which is



                 also an Office of Court Administration bill, I



                 believe.



                            It relates to primarily a problem



                 in New York City and the bigger cities, and



                 relates to a ludicrous situation primarily in



                 regards to appearance tickets, where what



                 happens is that a person is summoned to appear



                 in court and doesn't appear in court, so that



                 the -- they're allowed 30 days after that.



                 Usually I guess what happens in the city is



                 the ticket is usually lost for a while,



                 because there's so many appearance tickets,



                 and then the person is then pursued at some



                 point.



                            Years ago, there was over 250,000







                                                        650







                 appearance tickets out there, and some 281,000



                 warrants.  And I haven't tabulated this



                 recently.  It -- by the way, this also relates



                 to the hearings that Joe Lentol and I held in



                 New York City some years ago, and we had



                 passed a bill here just about two weeks ago on



                 aggravated unlicensed operation.



                            And the reason it relates to this



                 is the City of New York spends a ton of money



                 pursuing these people, and they have such a



                 backlog that they have virtually given up in



                 some ways.



                            What this bill really does say is



                 that if you don't appear on an appearance



                 ticket, you can be subject to some sort of



                 penalty.  And we increase the penalties for



                 bail jumping.



                            So that what would happen, I guess,



                 is somebody will get about 30 tickets and



                 they'll get a warrant for them, they'll bring



                 them in, and they'll charge them with 20 or 30



                 bucks' bail, or whatever they are, and the



                 person would be then subject to a violation if



                 they didn't appear on the bail.  And of course



                 they don't appear again.  And then they bring







                                                        651







                 them in.



                            What this bill does is up the



                 penalties, depending on what you were charged



                 with in the first place.



                            I realize that some of the people



                 in this house are a little sensitive to this.



                 But if you think about it, you know, it is



                 pretty ridiculous what's going on.  What it



                 is, it's encouraging scofflaws at an epidemic



                 rate in places like Buffalo and New York City



                 and Rochester and so forth.



                            We don't have quite that problem in



                 some of the other localities because we



                 have -- we don't have as many of these, and



                 the judges usually keep track of them.  Even



                 there, there's a substantial cost to it.



                 Although what happens, I think the justices



                 usually eventually send somebody out, they



                 just grab them, bring them in, and put them in



                 jail.  And then they figure out what to do



                 from there.



                            But what this bill is, it's really



                 a simple bill.  And what it says is we're not



                 giving them -- they're supposed to come in.



                 If they don't come in, they're subject to







                                                        652







                 being brought back in.  And they must -- they



                 can take jail.  And if they jump the bail,



                 then they're subject to some sort of penalty,



                 starting out at a B misdemeanor, going to an



                 A misdemeanor, depending on the crime, and



                 eventually getting to a felony.



                            Most of the felony charges -- there



                 is, by the way, a penalty already, but this is



                 in case -- there are some lesser violations



                 where you don't usually give an appearance



                 ticket out or a -- for a felony.  But there



                 are in certain cases where this can be done.



                 It really is a commonsense approach.



                            And, by the way, this doesn't say



                 you have to do it.  All it says is that that



                 penalty is available and you don't have the



                 extra 30 days.  Because remember, this is



                 extra.  This is after you are supposed to



                 appear in court.  Which may be, I don't know,



                 it may be two months.  When you get an



                 appearance ticket, somebody may set it up for



                 two months from there.  And so the person



                 doesn't come in in two months, and then you've



                 got 30 more days before they do anything.



                            And what this does is to eliminate







                                                        653







                 the 30 days.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Montgomery.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, Mr.



                 President.  If I can ask Senator Volker a



                 question.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Volker.



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Sure.



                 Certainly.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Senator



                 Volker, I'm just looking at the memo attached



                 to your legislation.  And it says that the



                 failure to respond to an appearance ticket is



                 currently a violation --



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Right.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    -- that



                 becomes a Class B misdemeanor.



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    If they don't



                 appear.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    If they



                 don't appear, punishable by up to three months



                 in jail.



                            And bail jumping in the third



                 degree, currently a Class A misdemeanor,







                                                        654







                 becomes a Class E felony punishable by up to



                 four years in prison.



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    No, no, no.



                 Wait a minute.  You've got --



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Am I reading



                 that wrong?



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    No, I think



                 you're misreading it.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    It says bail



                 jumping in the third degree, currently a



                 Class A misdemeanor, becomes a Class E



                 felony --



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Right, E felony.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    --



                 punishable by up to four years in prison.



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Mm-hmm.  Yes.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    So I'm



                 just -- and it goes on.



                            So that the farthest out that we go



                 with your legislation is 15 years in prison.



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Right.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    I'm just



                 wondering, again, what is the value of this



                 legislation vis-a-vis the cost to the state if



                 we take it to the farthest degree, based on







                                                        655







                 what your legislation does.



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Senator, let me



                 explain something to you.  The process right



                 now is costing the City of New York tons of



                 money.  There's nothing in this bill that's



                 going to add any costs at all.



                            A person who is out on bail and



                 jumps bail on a felony, let's remember that



                 they're already subject -- by the way, quite



                 clearly, it would be stupid -- it's stupid for



                 somebody if they're innocent to jump bail.



                 But people do it anyway.  Usually it's because



                 they're guilty and they don't want to come



                 back in.  So you're almost encouraged to try



                 to escape.



                            What we're saying is you're not



                 encouraged to escape, you're encouraged to



                 come back in and at least face the charges.



                 If you don't, if you jump bail, then you can



                 get an extra sentence to the one that you



                 would be entitled to anyways.



                            Now, let's understand that



                 appearance tickets -- I don't know of hardly



                 any felonies that are subject to appearance



                 tickets.  The only thing is that most of the







                                                        656







                 nonappearances in the major cities are for



                 appearance tickets.  They're things like



                 parking and different violations.  So the



                 worst you could get for not appearing



                 eventually would be a B misdemeanor.



                            Now, in New York City, a



                 B misdemeanor is -- no one is going to jail on



                 a B misdemeanor, by the way.  They could, but



                 nobody is.  Unless they yell at the judge



                 or -- I mean, well, who's going to bother to



                 put somebody in jail for that?



                            But the big thing is to try to get



                 them to come in without having to send out



                 police officers or the sheriff's people in the



                 city -- or in upstate New York, the sheriffs



                 also -- which costs umpteen dollars and



                 actually detracts from the ability of the City



                 of New York, the City of Buffalo, and all



                 these places to be able to enforce the law and



                 to deal with real crimes.  Because most of



                 these are not real crimes, they're



                 comparatively minor.



                            And that's what you're trying to



                 do, you're trying to get people in to respond



                 to these.  Okay?







                                                        657







                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Thank you,



                 Senator Volker.



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    You're welcome.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Mr.



                 President, briefly on the bill.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    On the



                 bill.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    I am looking



                 at Senator Volker's legislation and the memo



                 that accompanies it, and the thing that really



                 is quite disturbing to me is that we're



                 talking about, as Senator Volker says himself,



                 to a very large extent failure to appear for a



                 desk ticket, an appearance ticket.  And those



                 people who do that, under his legislation,



                 would possibly be required to spend three



                 months in jail, based on his bill.



                            It occurs to me that it's much more



                 costly for the city to have -- you have



                 43,000.  If we got half of them, and they



                 received the maximum sentence under your



                 legislation, we'd have a huge cost to the City



                 of New York, because they're going to spend



                 those three months in a local jail.  If we go



                 to the maximum possibility, 15 years in







                                                        658







                 prison, just consider how much that costs.



                            We already have a major problem



                 with people who are being reincarcerated



                 because they violated a parole -- not that



                 they committed another crime, but they



                 violated some parole rules, and they end up



                 back in prison.  It's very costly.  It does



                 not help to deal with the whole question of



                 the behavior of people.  There's nothing to be



                 gained by this kind of legislation that I can



                 see.



                            And I think that Senator Volker is



                 at least fair in admitting that these are



                 basically minor issues that we're talking



                 about.  But still, we want to incarcerate



                 them.



                            I just cannot go along with this



                 notion that every single issue that we have,



                 especially in the city of New York, in the



                 urban centers of this state, everything that



                 we consider to be an issue is dealt with with



                 the criminal justice system.  And this is just



                 one more example.



                            So I'm going to vote no again on



                 this legislation, as I have in the past.







                                                        659







                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Mr. President.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Volker.



                            SENATOR VOLKER:    Senator, I guess



                 I have a question.  What you're saying is we



                 shouldn't do anything because people violate



                 the law.  Should we flog them?  I mean, what



                 is there you would like to do?



                            Nobody is saying these people are



                 going to go to jail, but they're violating the



                 law.  Maybe they harassed their wife, or



                 maybe -- who knows what it is.  And it costs



                 us millions -- or it costs them millions of



                 dollars to go out and look for them.  And



                 you're saying what do we do, tell them to come



                 in?  I mean, you have to think about this.



                 There's laws in this state.  And the only way



                 you can enforce some of those laws is to have



                 penalties.



                            Now, for instance, drug offenders,



                 many of them in the City of New York get



                 arrested a hundred times before they ever go



                 to jail.  And then finally they go to jail and



                 people say, "Well, they're only nonviolent



                 drug offenders."  Well, the problem is maybe







                                                        660







                 if they had at least been called in in the



                 first place and had some treatment, maybe they



                 wouldn't be doing it.



                            But the only way you can do this is



                 to have some sort of a penalty.  How else are



                 you going to do it?  I think you're thinking



                 that all these people are going to jail.  Of



                 course they're not going to go to jail.  But



                 you have to have some sort of penalty to get



                 them even in there.



                            And the problem is that the police



                 department just gets so fed up with these



                 things -- so what that means is you have a



                 hundred thousand scofflaws running around



                 knowing that they can do anything they want.



                 They can run into your car, drive away, and



                 nobody is going to bother them.  That's not



                 the solution.



                            I know what you're talking about



                 incarceration, but the solution is not to let



                 them do anything they please.  And you can't



                 just talk them into it, because some of these



                 people have 30 appearance tickets.  And my



                 personal opinion is if they have 30 appearance



                 tickets, they're obviously saying we don't







                                                        661







                 care about you, your family, or anybody.  And



                 they ought to be in jail, frankly, because



                 they ought to do the same thing you and I do,



                 and that is follow the law.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Thank



                 you, Senator Volker.



                            Is there any other Senator wishing



                 to be heard on this bill?  If not, debate is



                 closed.



                            Read the last section.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Section 16.  This



                 act shall take effect on the first day of



                 November.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Call



                 the roll.



                            (The Secretary called the roll.)



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Montgomery, to explain her vote.



                            SENATOR MONTGOMERY:    Yes, I would



                 like to explain my vote, Mr. President.



                            I know that Senator Volker feels



                 very strong about this issue.  And I just want



                 to offer, as -- by way of example, the -- an



                 approach to this kind of a situation.  Not



                 exactly the same, but it's an approach.







                                                        662







                            The district attorney of Kings



                 County has implemented a program whereby he



                 contacts parolees and brings them in.  The



                 purpose of him bringing them in and the reason



                 that he gets such a tremendous response is,



                 one, it is the district attorney who is



                 approaching them, and, two, he is looking to



                 offer them a way of staying out of trouble,



                 remaining free of incarceration, and therefore



                 people do respond in a very positive fashion.



                            So I think that we just need to



                 figure there are possibilities, there are ways



                 of approaching this kind of situation that



                 doesn't cost so much money and doesn't end up



                 being at the -- part of the problem of so many



                 people being incarcerated in our state.



                            So I vote no.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Thank



                 you, Senator Montgomery.



                            The Secretary will announce the



                 results.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Those recorded in



                 the negative on Calendar Number 76 are



                 Senators Andrews, Hassell-Thompson,



                 Montgomery, and Parker.  Ayes, 54.  Nays, 4.







                                                        663







                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    The



                 bill is passed.



                            Senator Skelos, that completes the



                 controversial reading of the calendar.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Thank you, Mr.



                 President.  If we could return to reports of



                 standing committees, I believe there's a



                 report at the desk.  Could we have it read at



                 this time.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Reports



                 of standing committees.



                            The Secretary will read.



                            THE SECRETARY:    Senator Rath,



                 from the Committee on Children and Families,



                 reports the following bills:



                            Senate Print 517, by Senator



                 Balboni, an act to amend the Family Court Act



                 and the Domestic Relations Law;



                            556, by Senator Skelos, an act to



                 amend the Family Court Act and the Criminal



                 Procedure Law;



                            And Senate Print 1023, by Senator



                 Skelos, an act to amend the Domestic Relations



                 Law.



                            All bills ordered direct to third







                                                        664







                 reading.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    All



                 bills reported direct to third reading.



                            Senator Skelos.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Is there any



                 housekeeping at the desk?



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    No,



                 there is not.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Would you please



                 recognize Senator Krueger.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Krueger.



                            SENATOR KRUEGER:    Thank you, Mr.



                 President.  I'd like unanimous consent to be



                 recorded in the negative on Calendar 44, S554.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Without



                 objection.



                            SENATOR KRUEGER:    Thank you.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    Senator



                 Skelos.



                            SENATOR SKELOS:    Mr. President,



                 there being no further business to come before



                 the Senate, I move we adjourn until Tuesday,



                 February 25th, at 12 noon.



                            ACTING PRESIDENT ROBACH:    On







                                                        665







                 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until



                 Tuesday, February 25th, at 12 noon.



                            (Whereupon, at 3:46 p.m., the



                 Senate adjourned.)