Regular Session - January 9, 2024

                                                                   141

 1                NEW YORK STATE SENATE

 2                          

 3                          

 4               THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD

 5                          

 6                          

 7                          

 8                          

 9                  ALBANY, NEW YORK

10                   January 9, 2024

11                     11:11 a.m.

12                          

13                          

14                   REGULAR SESSION

15  

16  

17  

18  LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR ANTONIO DELGADO, President

19  ALEJANDRA N. PAULINO, ESQ., Secretary

20  

21  

22  

23  

24  

25  


                                                               142

 1                P R O C E E D I N G S

 2                 THE PRESIDENT:   The Senate will 

 3    come to order.  

 4                 I ask everyone to please rise and 

 5    recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

 6                 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited 

 7    the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 

 8                 THE PRESIDENT:   In the absence of 

 9    clergy, let us bow our heads in a moment of 

10    silent reflection or prayer.

11                 (Whereupon, the assemblage respected 

12    a moment of silence.)

13                 THE PRESIDENT:   Reading of the 

14    Journal.

15                 THE SECRETARY:   In Senate, Monday, 

16    January 8, 2024, the Senate met pursuant to 

17    adjournment.  The Journal of Sunday, January 7, 

18    2024, was read and approved.  On motion, the 

19    Senate adjourned.

20                 THE PRESIDENT:   Without objection, 

21    the Journal stands approved as read.

22                 Presentation of petitions.

23                 Messages from the Assembly.

24                 Messages from the Governor.

25                 Reports of standing committees.


                                                               143

 1                 Reports of select committees.

 2                 Communications and reports from 

 3    state officers.

 4                 Motions and resolutions.

 5                 Senator Gianaris.

 6                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Thank you, 

 7    Mr. President.  Good morning.  

 8                 I move to adopt the 

 9    Resolution Calendar, with the exception of 

10    Resolution 1595 and Concurrent Resolution 1600.

11                 THE PRESIDENT:   All those in favor 

12    of adopting the Resolution Calendar, with the 

13    exception of Resolution 1595, please signify by 

14    saying aye.

15                 (Response of "Aye.") 

16                 THE PRESIDENT:  Opposed?

17                 (No response.)

18                 THE PRESIDENT:   The 

19    Resolution Calendar is adopted.

20                 Senator Gianaris.

21                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Can we begin by 

22    taking up Resolution 1595, by Senator Harckham, 

23    read that resolution's title only, and recognize 

24    Senator Harckham.

25                 THE PRESIDENT:   The Secretary will 


                                                               144

 1    read.

 2                 THE SECRETARY:   Senate Resolution 

 3    1595, by Senator Harckham, mourning the death of 

 4    Thomas P. Diana, business owner, retired police 

 5    officer, distinguished citizen, and devoted 

 6    member of his community.

 7                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Harckham.

 8                 SENATOR HARCKHAM:   Thank you, 

 9    Mr. President.

10                 It's with sadness today that we mark 

11    the passing of Thomas P. Diana, supervisor of the 

12    Town of Yorktown, who passed away suddenly on 

13    Friday and is being laid to rest as we speak 

14    right now.

15                 To his wife, Donna, his daughters, 

16    Megan and Brianna, our heartfelt condolences and 

17    prayers, and to all those who knew and loved Tom.  

18                 Tom is known for several things.  

19    You know, he's a third-generation Yorktown 

20    resident.  He was very proud that he was born and 

21    bred in Yorktown.  He went to Lakeland High 

22    School.  He was a Westchester County cop early in 

23    his career and was a beloved cop.  And it left a 

24    mark on him in that later, when he was on the 

25    town board, he focused on substance abuse 


                                                               145

 1    disorders and drug prevention toward our young 

 2    people, and recreation programs toward our young 

 3    people.  

 4                 And when Tom retired from the county 

 5    police force, he started a fuel oil delivery 

 6    business in town.  And again, people got to know 

 7    Tom, and he was there for them on Sundays and 

 8    holidays, whenever they needed him.  That was 

 9    just the kind of guy he was.  

10                 He was also known for his public 

11    involvement -- many, many different civic groups, 

12    he was on the town board.  And then when former 

13    Supervisor Slater was elected to the Assembly, 

14    Tom was appointed last year to be supervisor.  

15    And then in November, there was a contested 

16    election; Tom prevailed, and he was just sworn in 

17    last week for his first full term.  

18                 And so, you know, this is one of 

19    those times where it's not about D or R.  You 

20    know, this is about the humanity.  And Tom was 

21    just a really, really nice guy.  And the thing 

22    about him was he always had a smile, he always 

23    had a firm handshake, he looked you in the eye, 

24    he always gave you a bear hug.  Great 

25    self-deprecating humor.  


                                                               146

 1                 You know, he was the kind of person 

 2    you like to be around at events, you like to do 

 3    business with.  We worked together.  We were 

 4    different sides of the aisle, but they're a big 

 5    town in my district, we work closely together.  

 6    And just a wonderful, wonderful human being.  

 7                 And so this is really just a tragedy 

 8    all the way around.  And so again, our sentiments 

 9    go out to his family, to all those who knew and 

10    loved him, those who served with him in Yorktown.  

11                 I want to thank Majority Leader 

12    Andrea Stewart-Cousins and Senators Mayer, Bailey 

13    and Fernandez for joining me on this resolution 

14    in his honor.  

15                 Sadly, I vote aye, Mr. President.

16                 THE PRESIDENT:   The question is on 

17    the resolution.  All in favor signify by saying 

18    aye.

19                 (Response of "Aye.")

20                 THE PRESIDENT:   Opposed?  

21                 (No response.)

22                 THE PRESIDENT:   The resolution is 

23    adopted.  

24                 Senator Gianaris.  

25                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Mr. President, 


                                                               147

 1    Senator Harckham would like to open that 

 2    resolution for cosponsorship.

 3                 THE PRESIDENT:   The resolution is 

 4    open for cosponsorship.  Should you choose not to 

 5    be a cosponsor of the resolution, please notify 

 6    the desk.

 7                 Senator Gianaris.

 8                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Mr. President, 

 9    there is a concurrent resolution at the desk.  I 

10    ask that that be read in its entirety and move 

11    for its immediate adoption.

12                 THE PRESIDENT:   The Secretary will 

13    read.

14                 THE SECRETARY:   Senate Resolution 

15    1600, by Senator Stewart-Cousins, Concurrent 

16    Resolution of the Senate and Assembly providing 

17    for a joint assembly for the purpose of receiving 

18    a message from the Governor.  

19                 "RESOLVED, That the Senate and 

20    Assembly meet in joint assembly in the Assembly 

21    Chamber at one o'clock p.m. today, for the 

22    purpose of receiving a message from the 

23    Governor."

24                 THE PRESIDENT:   All those in favor 

25    signify by saying aye.


                                                               148

 1                 (Response of "Aye.")

 2                 THE PRESIDENT:   Opposed?

 3                 (No response.)

 4                 THE PRESIDENT:   The resolution is 

 5    adopted.

 6                 Senator Gianaris.

 7                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Let's proceed 

 8    with the reading of the calendar, please.

 9                 THE PRESIDENT:   The Secretary will 

10    read.

11                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 10, 

12    Senate Print 8001, by Senator Stewart-Cousins, an 

13    act to amend the Village Law and the 

14    Executive Law.

15                 THE PRESIDENT:   Leader 

16    Stewart-Cousins to explain her vote.

17                 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS:   Thank you 

18    so much, Mr. President.

19                 This is really the second half of a 

20    transformation in terms of the way villages are 

21    incorporated and the way villages can be 

22    dissolved.  

23                 When I was the chair of Local 

24    Governments back in 2009, we, after the 

25    initiation -- after the initiative of then 


                                                               149

 1    Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, who looked at the 

 2    10,000 taxing entities in his role as 

 3    Attorney General and talked about how we could 

 4    create a more streamlined government so there 

 5    would not be 10,000 different ways to tax.  And I 

 6    was chair and was able to carry that bill that 

 7    dissolved -- that gave local people the 

 8    opportunity to petition to dissolved various 

 9    taxing entities.  

10                 We as a government incentivized 

11    villages to look at the taxing entities and to 

12    begin a process to dissolve the "escalator 

13    district," for example, to dissolve the 

14    "goose-dung district," to dissolve taxing 

15    entities that they really did not require.  We 

16    never, however, looked at the law -- that is over 

17    a hundred years old -- on how to incorporate a 

18    village.  

19                 There's a lot of conversation that's 

20    gone on in both houses and all around the state 

21    about what you do to incorporate a village.  And 

22    so what I asked, rather than people deciding 

23    arbitrarily how to incorporate a village, I asked 

24    Pace University and the Elizabeth Haub School of 

25    Law to take a look nationally at what it takes in 


                                                               150

 1    this day and age to incorporate a village.  And 

 2    they came up with a number of findings, most of 

 3    which are in this commission.

 4                 Basically they said that a neutral 

 5    state entity should preside over a village 

 6    incorporation review process, that the 

 7    decision-making for a village incorporation 

 8    should rely on proper studies and analysis.  

 9    Makes sense.  I think it was Mastic Beach in 

10    Long Island that incorporated and then 

11    unincorporated, because it turned out it costs a 

12    lot of money to run a village, and that 

13    conversation isn't really taking place in the 

14    process of incorporating.  

15                 It also said that the minimum 

16    population requirement is inadequate.  When we 

17    looked around the nation, Wisconsin, for example, 

18    requires 2500 people to become a village.  

19    Florida requires 1500.  So our minimum, a minimum 

20    of 500, is just too small.  And subsequently and 

21    consequentially, because the number is too low, 

22    the number of signatures that you have to receive 

23    is also too low.

24                 So I really commend Pace and their 

25    Land Use Law Center, Dean Horace Anderson, and 


                                                               151

 1    all who looked at the nation and looked at 

 2    what -- what our state was doing and made 

 3    suggestions to (A) allow us to have the 

 4    information that's needed when a village is 

 5    asking to become incorporated, and (B) give 

 6    people an opportunity, if they're going to do 

 7    this, to actually be viable.

 8                 So I appreciate the fact that people 

 9    might be -- it's different.  I mean, again, we're 

10    changing a law that's well over a hundred years 

11    old.  But I do believe that it will help in terms 

12    of not only the viability of these villages, but 

13    there will be a rationale that is consistent with 

14    the country in terms of how these villages get 

15    incorporated.  

16                 So I vote aye.

17                 THE PRESIDENT:   Thank you, 

18    Majority Leader.  

19                 Recognize Senator Martins.

20                 SENATOR MARTINS:   Thank you, 

21    Mr. President.

22                 You know, I hate to disagree with my 

23    esteemed colleague, but I do.  My history, as 

24    many in the chamber know, is in village 

25    government.  I grew up in a village.  I served as 


                                                               152

 1    mayor of a village.  I've been on executive 

 2    boards for the Nassau County Village Officials 

 3    Association and the New York Conference of Mayors 

 4    before coming to this chamber.  I represent 

 5    nearly 50 villages in my Senate district, 

 6    probably more than any other Senator in this 

 7    chamber.  

 8                 And frankly, with all due respect to 

 9    whoever the consultant was at Pace University and 

10    whatever they do in the state of Wisconsin, I 

11    daresay we have villages in this state that 

12    actually are older than the state of Wisconsin in 

13    this country.  There's a reason we have villages 

14    and we have decentralized government in New York 

15    State, and we have home rule, and that allows 

16    local governments to make those decisions for 

17    themselves.

18                 I represent a series of villages, 

19    Mr. President, in my district -- and I believe 

20    many of my colleagues in this chamber do as 

21    well -- that have less than 2,000 residents and 

22    now less than 1500 residents.  But yet they're 

23    villages, they're successful, they govern, they 

24    provide basic resources, they provide zoning for 

25    their local communities, they budget.  


                                                               153

 1                 And yet we're telling them now that 

 2    if they have less than 1500 residents, somehow 

 3    we're calling into question the viability of that 

 4    village itself.  And I think that's the wrong 

 5    message.  If a group of residents want to stand 

 6    together and make a decision to form a village -- 

 7    whether it's a village or a town or a city -- I 

 8    think it is incumbent upon us to allow democracy 

 9    to control and to allow that those things just 

10    happen.  

11                 And the fact that we have laws on 

12    the books that are over a hundred years old 

13    should be something we celebrate, not something 

14    that we use as a criticism and a measure to 

15    determine that they are -- I've heard the term 

16    archaic, archaic, when we're talking about some 

17    of the basic foundations of governance here in 

18    New York State.  

19                 So whether you live in a city or 

20    whether you live in a town or whether you live in 

21    a village, you're going to live in one of those 

22    communities.  And so to turn around and say the 

23    villages somehow are less because they don't have 

24    more than 1500 residents, or we're going to cast 

25    aspersions on the intentions of people who want 


                                                               154

 1    to form villages, I think is misstated.  

 2                 Mr. President, I vote no.

 3                 THE PRESIDENT:   The Secretary will 

 4    please call the roll.

 5                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

 6                 THE PRESIDENT:   Announce the 

 7    results.

 8                 THE SECRETARY:   In relation to 

 9    Calendar 10, those Senators voting in the 

10    negative are Senators Ashby, Borrello, 

11    Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick, Felder, Gallivan, Griffo, 

12    Helming, Lanza, Martins, Mattera, Murray, 

13    Oberacker, O'Mara, Ortt, Rhoads, Rolison, Stec, 

14    Tedisco, Walczyk, Weber and Weik.  

15                 Ayes, 41.  Nays, 21.

16                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.

17                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 13, 

18    Senate Print 8004, by Senator Skoufis, an act to 

19    amend the Insurance Law.

20                 THE PRESIDENT:   Read the last 

21    section.

22                 THE SECRETARY:   Section 3.  This 

23    act shall take effect immediately.  

24                 THE PRESIDENT:   Call the roll.

25                 (The Secretary called the roll.)


                                                               155

 1                 THE PRESIDENT:   Announce the 

 2    results.

 3                 THE SECRETARY:   Ayes, 62.  

 4                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.

 5                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 16, 

 6    Senate Print 8007, by Senator Skoufis, an act to 

 7    amend the Village Law.

 8                 SENATOR LANZA:   Lay it aside.

 9                 THE PRESIDENT:   Lay it aside.  The 

10    bill will be laid aside.

11                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 17, 

12    Senate Print 8008, by Senator Hoylman-Sigal, an 

13    act to amend the Penal Law.

14                 THE PRESIDENT:   Read the last 

15    section.

16                 THE SECRETARY:   Section 46.  This 

17    act shall take effect immediately.

18                 THE PRESIDENT:   Call the roll.

19                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

20                 THE PRESIDENT:   Announce the 

21    results.

22                 THE SECRETARY:   In relation to 

23    Calendar 17, those voting in the negative are 

24    Senators Brisport, Gonzalez and Salazar.  

25                 Ayes, 59.  Nays, 3.


                                                               156

 1                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.

 2                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 20, 

 3    Senate Print 8011, by Senator Kavanagh, an act to 

 4    amend the Administrative Code of the City of 

 5    New York.

 6                 THE PRESIDENT:   Read the last 

 7    section.

 8                 THE SECRETARY:   Section 6.  This 

 9    act shall take effect immediately.

10                 THE PRESIDENT:   Call the roll.

11                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

12                 THE PRESIDENT:   Announce the 

13    results.  (Pause.)

14                 Senator Borrello.

15                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Thank you, 

16    Mr. President.  To explain my vote.

17                 You know, we talk a lot about 

18    affordable housing, making housing more 

19    affordable in New York State, but this bill makes 

20    some marginal improvements, but it really 

21    increases the vagueness for our property owners 

22    here in New York State, and that's the problem 

23    with this bill.

24                 You know, we are going to continue 

25    to push private property owners out of the 


                                                               157

 1    business of renting their properties.  And doing 

 2    so is going to make us much like a Third World 

 3    nation where the elite, the politically 

 4    connected, have private property, and the rest of 

 5    us are going to be in some kind of a 

 6    government-run housing authority.  And that is 

 7    not the way New York State should look.  

 8                 So I'll be voting no.  Thank you.

 9                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Martins to 

10    explain his vote.

11                 SENATOR MARTINS:   Thank you, 

12    Mr. President.

13                 You know, it's -- I guess probably 

14    about seven months ago we debated this bill here 

15    on the floor, and here we are again.  You know, 

16    and I want to recognize that the chapter 

17    amendment does improve the original bill.  It 

18    adds elements of knowingly committing a fraud, 

19    which is a vast improvement.  It provides 

20    critical elements of fraud but continues to 

21    permit courts to dispense with other elements of 

22    common law fraud.  

23                 This chapter amendment does not 

24    resolve the uncertainty of buildings with 

25    deregulated apartments pursuant to the 


                                                               158

 1    interpretation of DHCR J-51.  You know, rather 

 2    than providing clarity through this law and the 

 3    chapter amendment, the reliability of the rent 

 4    rolls of the affected buildings remain unsettled 

 5    and subject to litigation, Mr. President.  

 6                 You know, part of the debate we had 

 7    here just seven months ago was precisely that:  

 8    Vagueness, the applicability, retroactivity of 

 9    some of these provisions, and the fact that it 

10    would not provide certainty to property owners 

11    when it came to holding them accountable or 

12    responsible for things that had already happened 

13    which were perfectly legal when they happened.  

14    And unfortunately, this chapter amendment does 

15    not change that.

16                 So I'll still be voting no, although 

17    recognizing that this is an improvement over the 

18    original bill.  

19                 Thank you.

20                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Martins is 

21    recorded in the negative.

22                 Senator Kavanagh to explain his 

23    vote.

24                 SENATOR KAVANAGH:   Thank you.  I'll 

25    be brief.


                                                               159

 1                 We did have an extensive discussion 

 2    of this issue in June, and I just want to rise to 

 3    first of all thank -- you know, we worked closely 

 4    with the Governor's office and our colleagues in 

 5    the Assembly to clarify and address certain 

 6    issues in the bill that we passed that are 

 7    contained in this chapter amendment.

 8                 This is -- the provisions that my 

 9    colleague was referring to are really pretty 

10    straightforward.  It is long settled in this 

11    state that if a case is brought for an 

12    overcharge, if there is evidence that the 

13    property owner has violated the law, has -- is 

14    charging more than they can because of changes 

15    they willfully made, that they made under a 

16    standard that was called fraud for many years, 

17    that it is possible for the courts and HCR to 

18    look back and remedy that problem.

19                 It has never been the case in 

20    New York, until one interpretation by one court 

21    recently, that what is called common law fraud is 

22    necessary to be demonstrated.  That is -- that 

23    was the case in the seminal case on the issue of 

24    how the HSTPA of 2019 should be interpreted; 

25    that's Regina Metro.  But it is really part of a 


                                                               160

 1    long line of cases, including a case called Grimm 

 2    and a case called Conason, that established and 

 3    repeatedly indicated that it is the court's 

 4    interpretation of the law that you don't need to 

 5    demonstrate all of the elements of common law 

 6    fraud.  

 7                 This amendment that we're -- here 

 8    today clarifies that, it makes it clearer than 

 9    the bill we were talking about in June, which 

10    also did that.  And it is a -- what we're doing 

11    today will indeed clarify the standards that 

12    people need to face.  And if you willfully and 

13    intentionally raise the rent in a way that you 

14    are not permitted to do, and as a result somebody 

15    is paying more than they're legally supposed to, 

16    this bill will provide some remedies for that.

17                 So I vote aye, and thank you.

18                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Kavanagh to 

19    be recorded in the affirmative.

20                 Announce the results.

21                 THE SECRETARY:   In relation to 

22    Calendar 20, those Senators voting in the 

23    negative are Senators Ashby, Borrello, 

24    Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick, Felder, Gallivan, Griffo, 

25    Helming, Lanza, Mannion, Martinez, Mattera, 


                                                               161

 1    Murray, Oberacker, O'Mara, Ortt, Palumbo, Rhoads, 

 2    Rolison, Scarcella-Spanton, Skoufis, Stec, 

 3    Tedisco, Walczyk, Weber and Weik.

 4                 Ayes, 37.  Nays, 25.

 5                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.

 6                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 28, 

 7    Senate Print 8025, by Senator Bailey, an act to 

 8    amend the General Business Law.

 9                 THE PRESIDENT:   Read the last 

10    section.

11                 THE SECRETARY:   Section 3.  This 

12    act shall take effect immediately.

13                 THE PRESIDENT:   Call the roll.

14                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

15                 THE PRESIDENT:   Announce the 

16    results.

17                 THE SECRETARY:   Ayes, 62.

18                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.

19                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 43, 

20    Senate Print 8053, by Senator Webb, an act to 

21    amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.

22                 THE PRESIDENT:   Read the last 

23    section.

24                 THE SECRETARY:   Section 5.  This 

25    act shall take effect immediately.


                                                               162

 1                 THE PRESIDENT:   Call the roll.

 2                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

 3                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Webb to 

 4    explain her vote.

 5                 SENATOR WEBB:   Thank you, 

 6    Mr. President.  I just want to rise to explain my 

 7    vote.

 8                 So when this was brought to the 

 9    floor -- and I want to thank everyone for their 

10    support.  This legislation will allow for 

11    federally tax-exempt nonprofit vehicle companies 

12    with a vehicle seating capacity of no more than 

13    15 passengers -- they're not limousines -- to 

14    access automobile insurance coverage in New York 

15    State.  

16                 This legislation is very helpful in 

17    areas such as mine, where a lot of folks still 

18    struggle with having access to public 

19    transportation.  This particular organization, 

20    Ithaca Car Share, has been serving residents in 

21    my district in Tompkins County for well over 

22    15 years.  And they had to stop their operations 

23    because of a preexisting provision in our State 

24    Insurance Law.

25                 And so because of this legislation, 


                                                               163

 1    that organization will now be able to ensure that 

 2    residents get opportunities to go to work, go to 

 3    their medical appointments, engage in social 

 4    activity and so on.

 5                 And so it really is not only an 

 6    opportunity for equitable transportation, but 

 7    also is eco-friendly, especially for those 

 8    individuals who also can't afford their own 

 9    vehicle.

10                 And so again I want to thank the 

11    Governor's team, the Department of Financial 

12    Services, the Department of Motor Vehicles, and 

13    everyone that helped to make this legislation 

14    come to fruition and to support the expansion of 

15    car shares across the state.  

16                 I also want to thank my Assembly 

17    colleague who also supported this bill, 

18    Assemblymember Anna Kelles.  

19                 I vote aye, and I encourage my 

20    colleagues to do so the same.

21                 Thank you.

22                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Webb will 

23    be recorded in the affirmative.

24                 Announce the results.

25                 THE SECRETARY:   In relation to 


                                                               164

 1    Calendar 43, voting in the negative:  

 2    Senator Walczyk.

 3                 Ayes, 61.  Nays, 1.

 4                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.

 5                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 52, 

 6    Senate Print 8065, by Senator Hinchey, an act to 

 7    amend the Tax Law.

 8                 THE PRESIDENT:   Read the last 

 9    section.

10                 THE SECRETARY:   Section 2.  This 

11    act shall take effect on the same date and in the 

12    same manner as a chapter of the Laws of 2023.

13                 THE PRESIDENT:   Call the roll.

14                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

15                 THE PRESIDENT:   Announce the 

16    results.

17                 THE SECRETARY:   In relation to 

18    Calendar 52, those Senators voting in the 

19    negative are Senators Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick, 

20    Harckham, Helming, Lanza, Mannion, Martinez, 

21    Mattera, Murray, O'Mara, Ortt, Palumbo, Rhoads, 

22    Scarcella-Spanton, Skoufis, Tedisco, Thomas, 

23    Walczyk, Webb, Weber and Weik.

24                 Ayes, 42.  Nays, 20.

25                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.


                                                               165

 1                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 67, 

 2    Senate Print 8087, by Senator Gounardes, an act 

 3    to amend the General Business Law.

 4                 THE PRESIDENT:   Read the last 

 5    section.

 6                 THE SECRETARY:   Section 8.  This 

 7    act shall take effect on the same date and in the 

 8    same manner as a chapter of the Laws of 2023.

 9                 THE PRESIDENT:   Call the roll.

10                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

11                 THE PRESIDENT:   Announce the 

12    results.

13                 THE SECRETARY:   Ayes, 62.

14                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.

15                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 75, 

16    Senate Print 8096, by Senator Stavisky, an act to 

17    amend a chapter of the Laws of 2023.

18                 THE PRESIDENT:   Read the last 

19    section.

20                 THE SECRETARY:   Section 2.  This 

21    act shall take effect immediately.

22                 THE PRESIDENT:   Call the roll.

23                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

24                 THE PRESIDENT:   Announce the 

25    results.


                                                               166

 1                 THE SECRETARY:   In relation to 

 2    Calendar 75, those Senators voting in the 

 3    negative are Senators Borrello, 

 4    Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick, Felder, Gallivan, Griffo, 

 5    Lanza, Martinez, Mattera, Murray, Oberacker, 

 6    O'Mara, Ortt, Rhoads, Stec, Tedisco and Walczyk.

 7                 Ayes, 46.  Nays, 16.

 8                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.

 9                 Senator Gianaris, that completes the 

10    reading of today's calendar.

11                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Can we now move 

12    on to the controversial calendar.

13                 THE PRESIDENT:   We'll go to the 

14    controversial, all right.

15                 The Secretary will ring the bell.

16                 The Secretary will read.

17                 THE SECRETARY:   Calendar Number 16, 

18    Senate Print 8007, by Senator Skoufis, an act to 

19    amend the Village Law.

20                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Weber, why 

21    do you rise?

22                 SENATOR WEBER:   Yeah, through you, 

23    Mr. President, will the sponsor yield for some 

24    questions?  

25                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Yes, happy to.


                                                               167

 1                 SENATOR WEBER:   Great, thank you.  

 2                 Senator Skoufis, when did you first 

 3    introduce this bill?

 4                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Through you, 

 5    Mr. President, I believe it was about six 

 6    sessions ago that a version of this bill was 

 7    first introduced.

 8                 SENATOR WEBER:   Thank you.  

 9                 And through you, Mr. President, 

10    would the sponsor continue to yield?  

11                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Yes.

12                 SENATOR WEBER:   Great.  And was 

13    this -- was this first introduced in response to 

14    Seven Springs Village in Orange County as -- 

15    being proposed?  

16                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Through you, 

17    Mr. President.  Like many of our legislative 

18    ideas, this one was, yes, in part prompted by 

19    something that was happening in the Senate 

20    district I represent.

21                 SENATOR WEBER:   Thank you.  

22                 And through you, Mr. President, 

23    would the sponsor continue to yield?  

24                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Yes.

25                 THE PRESIDENT:   The sponsor yields.


                                                               168

 1                 SENATOR WEBER:   Thank you.  

 2                 You know, as you know, we have a lot 

 3    of residents in common, common -- residents that 

 4    live in Rockland and Orange and own properties in 

 5    both.  And, you know, a lot of them have reached 

 6    out to me with concerns with this -- with this 

 7    law.  You know, it's commonly referred to as the 

 8    anti-Hasidic Jew Village Law right now in our 

 9    area.  

10                 You know, and I guess that was 

11    fueled by a lot of the comments that were made 

12    during the debate, throughout the debate, and 

13    since the law was passed.  You know, comments 

14    like wealthy developers making a buck, Hasidic 

15    villages, things of the sort not only in 

16    newspaper articles but in posts on your Facebook 

17    and Senate page.  

18                 So maybe -- I'd like you to speak to 

19    the fact of, you know, why those comments and why 

20    those interpretations, in your opinion, are 

21    wrong.  And, you know, how we can really make 

22    sure that -- that these comments don't continue.

23                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Through you, 

24    Mr. President, there are hundreds of villages and 

25    thus there have been hundreds of village 


                                                               169

 1    incorporation petitions over the years in 

 2    New York State.  And this bill and the underlying 

 3    bill, which is now law, applies to all of them.  

 4                 And the vast majority of them, 

 5    including an ongoing effort in Edgemont, in 

 6    Westchester, are not being initiated by 

 7    developers, they're not being initiated by 

 8    members of the Hasidic community.  And as the 

 9    Majority Leader noted when she spoke on her bill, 

10    the underlying law that's over a hundred years 

11    old is antiquated and requires modernization.

12                 So this has nothing to do with 

13    religion, nothing to do with any of what you 

14    described.  And I contend -- through you, 

15    Mr. President -- that if you have questions about 

16    the substance of this bill, I'm certainly happy 

17    to answer any of those questions.

18                 SENATOR WEBER:   Through you, 

19    Mr. President, will the sponsor continue to 

20    yield?  

21                 THE PRESIDENT:   Does the sponsor 

22    yield? 

23                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Yes.

24                 THE PRESIDENT:   The sponsor yields.

25                 SENATOR WEBER:   I appreciate that 


                                                               170

 1    you brought up the Village of Edgemont today, and 

 2    that makes me feel a lot better.  I'm sure a lot 

 3    of my constituents feel better.  

 4                 But when you had the chance to 

 5    comment, you didn't mention Edgemont, you 

 6    mentioned the Hasidic villages or the Hasidic 

 7    developers and Hasidic villages.  So I appreciate 

 8    you bringing that up now.

 9                 But just one or two other questions.  

10    In terms of, you know, villages, I live in a 

11    village; there's small villages in 

12    Rockland County.  I believe the Village of 

13    Hillburn has 900 people, and that's a village 

14    that has existed for a long time.  If people want 

15    to form a village, right, what additional costs 

16    to the people outside those villages are there, 

17    and what concerns should we continue to have if 

18    people want to form a village?  

19                 You know, they enter into 

20    intermunicipal agreements through -- with towns 

21    and -- the towns and the county, but if someone 

22    or a group of people want to form a village, what 

23    additional costs outside those people in that 

24    village are there?

25                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Through you, 


                                                               171

 1    Mr. President.  I suspect my colleague knows that 

 2    when a village incorporates, there are services 

 3    that are absorbed by that village that were 

 4    previously being offered by the town.  And thus a 

 5    village might now be maintaining roads and a 

 6    village might now even have a new police 

 7    department specifically for the jurisdiction of 

 8    that village.  

 9                 And thus any services that are 

10    absorbed by the village, the existing service for 

11    the balance of the town, the unincorporated 

12    sections of the town, the costs are shouldered by 

13    fewer residents in that smaller, now 

14    unincorporated piece of the town.  And so all 

15    things else equal, yes, property taxes go up for 

16    the balance of those residents in the town when 

17    you don't have those village residents 

18    contributing to those same services that are in 

19    the town budget.

20                 SENATOR WEBER:   Right.  

21                 And through you, Mr. President, 

22    would the sponsor continue to yield?  

23                 THE PRESIDENT:   Does the sponsor 

24    yield?

25                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Yes.


                                                               172

 1                 SENATOR WEBER:   Right.  So 

 2    there's --

 3                 THE PRESIDENT:   The sponsor yields.

 4                 SENATOR WEBER:   There's shared 

 5    services that are involved in that.  

 6                 But, you know, it goes back to if 

 7    people want to form a village, like villages were 

 8    formed throughout the 18th -- 19th century, 

 9    20th century, and most recently, you know, if 

10    those -- if those people within that village are 

11    willing to pay that higher village tax, isn't it 

12    their right to -- to form that village?  

13                 And, you know, as said earlier, you 

14    know, there are villages that exist in New York 

15    State, one being the one I mentioned, Hillburn, 

16    that has less than 1500 residents.  And I think 

17    they're fine and dandy being the Village of 

18    Hillburn as -- as it exists today.

19                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Through you, 

20    Mr. President, I think there was a question in 

21    the middle of that.  

22                 And so when you asked do folks have 

23    the right to form a village, the answer is yes.  

24    Nothing here takes away that right.  We just 

25    simply modernize the parameters by which they 


                                                               173

 1    have to meet new requirements to form a village.  

 2    They can still form a village.  We now have new 

 3    population requirements.  

 4                 We now no longer allow property 

 5    ownership, which was a vestige of 

 6    near-ancient-history in New York State that 

 7    discriminates against non-property owners -- no 

 8    longer can you petition through that method.  

 9                 We now have an independent 

10    commission that takes the -- the politics out of 

11    the supervisor's office and into a more 

12    independent entity to determine whether a village 

13    incorporation is in the best interests of the 

14    local community.  So no one's taking away this 

15    right.  

16                 And I'll also contend, to something 

17    that you mentioned before -- and I may, you know, 

18    pose the question to you, as my colleague, that 

19    village incorporation efforts have increasingly 

20    in recent years been not about a group of 

21    residents who are earnestly trying to develop a 

22    village so that they can get better services and 

23    responsiveness from a more local government, but 

24    instead the -- the previous incorporation law has 

25    been increasingly weaponized by developers in 


                                                               174

 1    particular, and occasionally even residents, to 

 2    either up-zone or provide for exclusionary 

 3    zoning.  It actually works both ways.

 4                 And I'm sure you're familiar with 

 5    the incorporation of Airmont, in Rockland County, 

 6    that went all the way up to the Supreme Court, 

 7    and the Supreme Court determined that that 

 8    village incorporation effort was to exclude 

 9    Hasidic Jews from moving into that community.  

10    And so it works both ways.  

11                 And, you know, I'll just point 

12    out -- or I'll ask the question, if my colleague 

13    will defer, do you believe that Village Law 

14    incorporation efforts should be weaponized by a 

15    few, regardless of which side you're on, or 

16    should we have rules in place that make sure that 

17    local communities are protected when 

18    incorporation efforts do proceed?  

19                 SENATOR WEBER:   Sure.  Through you, 

20    Mr. President, would the sponsor continue to 

21    yield?

22                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Yes.

23                 SENATOR WEBER:   No, I don't think 

24    that villages should weaponize it, no.  And I 

25    think -- but I think there's a lot of reasons why 


                                                               175

 1    villages are formed in the first place.  

 2                 But I'm glad you brought up Airmont 

 3    because, you know, what I'm concerned about -- 

 4    and I think what a lot of people are concerned 

 5    about -- are the comments that were made before, 

 6    during and recently regarding this new law has 

 7    poisoned the well and has set up potential 

 8    lawsuits based on some of the very, very 

 9    controversial -- some of the dog whistling that 

10    has come out of this entire debate.  So I remain 

11    concerned about that.  

12                 But I thank you for indulging me 

13    with some of these questions.  Appreciate it.

14                 THE PRESIDENT:   Are there any other 

15    Senators wishing to be heard?

16                 Senator Martins.

17                 SENATOR MARTINS:   Thank you.  

18                 You know, on the bill.  In keeping 

19    with my comments earlier having to do with a bill 

20    that would change the structure and how villages 

21    were formed and again set parameters, I'm 

22    concerned about, you know, this top-down 

23    approach, this idea that somehow here in Albany 

24    we have a better sense of what people in local 

25    communities should or shouldn't decide to do.


                                                               176

 1                 I hear comments like disgruntled 

 2    property owners.  You know, Mr. President, 

 3    there's nothing more fundamental to our democracy 

 4    than some disgruntled property owners deciding 

 5    that they wanted a better form of government and 

 6    that they wanted to self-govern.  That goes to 

 7    the very root of who we are as a nation.  And 

 8    certainly we have a rich history of that here in 

 9    New York.  

10                 Yet here in this chamber today, we 

11    talk about disgruntled property owners as if it's 

12    an aspersion, that property owners and residents 

13    should not be able to make those decisions for 

14    themselves and we're going to make those 

15    decisions for them, because somehow shared 

16    services in those communities may cost more and 

17    those communities can't make those decisions for 

18    themselves.  Including, as was alluded to just a 

19    few moments ago, the fact that the supervisor of 

20    the town from which the group and community 

21    wishes to effectively remove themselves to create 

22    a village, shouldn't have a say because we're 

23    going to create a more centralized statewide 

24    commission that's going to make those decisions 

25    for them because they don't know enough on their 


                                                               177

 1    own to make those decisions for themselves.  

 2                 You know, I'm troubled by that, 

 3    Mr. President, and I think everyone in this 

 4    chamber should be troubled by comments and 

 5    elitist comments like that, that say that because 

 6    you live here in whatever community you happen to 

 7    live in -- many of our members here in the 

 8    chamber come from cities.  They don't live in 

 9    rural or suburban communities.  They don't have 

10    experiences with villages, even villages smaller 

11    than 1500 residents.  I do.  

12                 The ability of people to make 

13    decisions for themselves and to come together and 

14    to decide for their reasons they want to create 

15    self-governance in a form that makes sense for 

16    them is something that is central to who we are, 

17    as I said earlier, as a state, certainly as a 

18    country.

19                 I'm also concerned, Mr. President, 

20    that, you know, when someone has an issue in 

21    their local community, their fix isn't to address 

22    that issue specifically.  It isn't to go into the 

23    community -- in this case, of Seven Springs -- 

24    and to make the case for why Seven Springs should 

25    not create a village.  My colleagues can 


                                                               178

 1    certainly go into that particular area; it's in 

 2    the process of debating this issue right now.  

 3    They can go into Seven Springs and make the case 

 4    for why that village should not be created.  

 5                 But no.  Instead, what we will do 

 6    here in this chamber is we'll bring an idea here 

 7    to address a specific concern in Orange County 

 8    and impose a one-size-fits-all approach that 

 9    impacts each and every one of our districts, 

10    wherever we happen to be.  Because one member of 

11    this chamber did not want to go and deal with 

12    this issue locally -- because it is a local 

13    issue -- now every community in New York State is 

14    going to change the law and change the way that 

15    villages are created and undermine a process that 

16    goes back for well over a hundred years.  Not the 

17    first time that's happened in this chamber.  And 

18    yet here we are again.

19                 So I ask my colleagues, think about 

20    your district.  Think about the places you 

21    represent.  Think about those communities that 

22    you represent.  If you live in a city, think 

23    about the places that sometimes you drive to -- 

24    maybe you come out to Nassau County, maybe you're 

25    back in my district.  We have a lot of villages 


                                                               179

 1    there.  You know what?  They're doing all right.  

 2    Sometimes they just want to be left alone.  

 3                 And if they don't like the way the 

 4    town is operating and if they don't like the way 

 5    that the local communities are treating a group 

 6    of residents, isn't it fundamental that those 

 7    groups should have the ability of deciding 

 8    whether or not that they want to govern 

 9    themselves?  Is there anything more democratic 

10    than a group of residents deciding on 

11    self-governance. 

12                 And yet this body would say:  No, we 

13    know better than you.  We're going to create a 

14    commission, we're going to put a floor to the 

15    number of people that you need to have.

16                 It's wrong, Mr. President.  The 

17    other bill was wrong.  This bill is wrong.  The 

18    direction that we're going in as a state -- 

19    attacking local governments for the sake of a 

20    more centralized government -- is wrong.  

21                 We're providing fewer and fewer 

22    options for our residents, and that's something 

23    each and every one of us in this chamber should 

24    be concerned about.  

25                 Mr. President, I'll be voting no.


                                                               180

 1                 THE PRESIDENT:   Are there any other 

 2    Senators wishing to be heard? 

 3                 Senator Krueger.

 4                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Thank you.

 5                 So I don't live in a village, I live 

 6    in a city.  We all live in villages or towns or 

 7    townships or cities and within counties.  And 

 8    guess what?  All of us live in municipalities 

 9    that, under the New York State Constitution, are 

10    the creation of the state.  And we are all 

11    elected to try to make the best decisions we can 

12    for over 20 million people who live in all these 

13    municipalities in our state.

14                 And I have to support my colleague 

15    in this bill, because we're not taking away the 

16    right to be a village.  We're modernizing the 

17    rules of how you make changes in the law.  We do 

18    that every day in this chamber.  We're actually 

19    elected to do that.  

20                 Democracy is not a stagnant, 

21    nonchanging model.  The world is changing every 

22    day, more and more rapidly.  The issues we all 

23    are facing in our home communities are changing 

24    more and more rapidly every day.

25                 So the fact that two legislative 


                                                               181

 1    bodies and a governor determined that this 

 2    modernization made sense and was in the best 

 3    interests of the people of New York, you can 

 4    agree or you can disagree, but the concept that 

 5    we are attacking some fundamental right that has 

 6    existed and is not our business -- this is 

 7    exactly what we are elected to do, to try to make 

 8    sure that New York State, within the confines of 

 9    our constitution, is handling things the best we 

10    can and recognizing that needs change, 

11    communities change, government changes, the world 

12    changes.  

13                 We're just doing our jobs here.  So 

14    I'm very happy to vote yes on this bill.

15                 Thank you, Mr. President.

16                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Borrello.

17                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Thank you, 

18    Mr. President.  On the bill.  

19                 In my time in county government, we 

20    actually had some villages dissolve in my -- in 

21    my district when I was a county legislator and as 

22    county executive.  And the state gave tools to 

23    the folks in that area to dissolve a village if 

24    they choose to do so.  They didn't demand it.  

25    They didn't change the thresholds.  They didn't 


                                                               182

 1    change the circumstances.  And some folks chose 

 2    to vote and dissolve villages to save money.

 3                 Now, I've heard in this debate that 

 4    we are modernizing things from a hundred years 

 5    ago.  Well, if you look at the most recent 

 6    history of the incorporation of new villages, 

 7    it's almost exclusively those who are wishing to 

 8    organize into a Jewish community, almost 

 9    exclusively in new village incorporations.  

10                 So the appearance is that after a 

11    hundred years, all of a sudden, recently, well, 

12    we're going to change some things -- raise the 

13    bar a little bit, make it a little bit more 

14    difficult.  That may or may not be the intention, 

15    but it is certainly the appearance.  Because at 

16    the same time you've been attacking those folks 

17    that want to have their own religious schools, 

18    private schools.  We've attacked them, made it 

19    more difficult.  Again, what's the appearance of 

20    that?  

21                 So we can argue all we want that 

22    this is just a change that we needed all of a 

23    sudden after a hundred years, or we can look at 

24    the facts that the most recent villages 

25    incorporated are in fact those organizing under 


                                                               183

 1    the Jewish faith.  That's the appearance that 

 2    we're giving here making this change now.  In a 

 3    particular area, by the way, where we've had 

 4    those villages incorporated so people can live 

 5    together with a common goal, common interests.

 6                 That, to me, is disturbing.  I'll be 

 7    voting no.

 8                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator 

 9    Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick.

10                 SENATOR CANZONERI-FITZPATRICK:   

11    Thank you, Mr. President.  On the bill.

12                 As a former deputy mayor in the 

13    Village of Malverne that was formed in 1921, I've 

14    had the benefit of seeing how village government 

15    runs.  It's the most efficient form of governing.  

16    Politics of Republican versus Democrat goes out 

17    the window.  It's about doing what's best for 

18    your local community.  And those decisions are 

19    particular to local communities.  A 

20    one-size-fits-all at the state level does not 

21    work in many districts.  

22                 I would never come into another 

23    district and say what should work, because even 

24    within the Ninth Senate District there are so 

25    many different areas, and what might work on the 


                                                               184

 1    South Shore doesn't work up in Bellerose Village, 

 2    who incorporated a hundred years ago.  

 3                 Having property owners gather 

 4    together and decide to form a village a hundred 

 5    years ago is a basic principle that we shouldn't 

 6    overturn at this point.  And I -- I do have some 

 7    very serious concerns about what we're doing by 

 8    removing decisions from local communities that 

 9    know what's best for them.  

10                 So for those reasons I'll be voting 

11    in the negative.  Thank you.  

12                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Walczyk.

13                 SENATOR WALCZYK:   Thank you, 

14    Mr. President.  On the bill.

15                 So we've received some civics 

16    lessons, and I just want to correct the record on 

17    some things.  We are 19 million and reducing in 

18    number in New York State, not 20 million anymore.  

19    Sadly, we continue to lose population.  This 

20    may be one of the reasons why.

21                 We are also not a democracy.  We are 

22    a constitutional republic.  And everybody in this 

23    chamber knows that because you just put your 

24    right hand over your heart and swore and pledged 

25    allegiance to the republic for which it stands, 


                                                               185

 1    right to that flag in the United States of 

 2    America there.

 3                 If we were a direct democracy, 

 4    people would be voting on the Senator Skoufis's 

 5    bill S8007.  But instead, we're a constitutional 

 6    republic where the people have selected each 

 7    member in this body to discuss and debate these 

 8    things, under the understanding that on your very 

 9    first day of office you swore an oath to uphold 

10    the Constitution of the United States and that 

11    republic.

12                 So you can't just toss out the 

13    principles and say, Oh, these laws are old and 

14    that means we need to update them so that we can 

15    become more autocratic, control more things from 

16    the top, push more power towards the Executive, 

17    and disallow people to even form their own 

18    villages in the State of New York.

19                 A government closer to the people 

20    serves them better.  And I will point you all, 

21    because my time is short in this chamber -- so I 

22    appreciate the opportunity to speak, 

23    Mr. President -- but I would point you all to one 

24    other symbol that you get to reflect on and look 

25    at each day that you're in this chamber.  It's 


                                                               186

 1    both on the New York State flag and on the seal 

 2    that sits above the dais there in the window.  

 3    When New York State formed the seal for the State 

 4    of New York, they put the crown of King George 

 5    III under the foot of Lady Liberty in the design 

 6    of the flag and of our seal.  They call it 

 7    "kicking the crown."  

 8                 Because our job here is not to 

 9    consolidate power to the state away from the 

10    people.  Our job is to remember that New York 

11    State kicked the crown of an autocratic king 

12    because government closer to the people serves 

13    the people better.  And to the republic for which 

14    it stands.

15                 Thank you, Mr. President.  I vote 

16    no.

17                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Skoufis.

18                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Thank you very 

19    much.  On the bill.

20                 I do want to -- I appreciate the 

21    dialogue and the debate.  I do want to correct a 

22    few things for the record.

23                 At least a couple of my colleagues, 

24    including the two from Long Island, spoke 

25    about -- or they suggested how this bill, this 


                                                               187

 1    new law, somehow removes local decision-making 

 2    authority.  As my colleagues likely know, but 

 3    perhaps not, the town supervisor -- under the 

 4    previous law that was in place about 150 years, 

 5    the town supervisor could not consider the merits 

 6    of the incorporation.  They could not consider 

 7    the impacts on local taxes.  They could not 

 8    consider the impacts on local services of the 

 9    incorporation.  None of that could be considered 

10    when the town supervisor sought to approve or 

11    reject a village incorporation petition.  None of 

12    that could be considered under the previous law.  

13                 There was no decision-making 

14    authority to remove.  The only thing that the 

15    town supervisor could consider was the 

16    superficial aspects, the technical nature of the 

17    petition:  Are the tax lots outlined legally and 

18    appropriately on the petition, and the such.  And 

19    so the suggestion that there was any local 

20    decision-making authority by the town supervisor 

21    to begin with is just simply patently false.  

22                 It was mentioned that we're creating 

23    a floor here.  There's been a floor for 

24    150 years, of 500 people.  We're not creating a 

25    new floor.  We're raising the floor, the number 


                                                               188

 1    of people, but there's always been a floor in 

 2    place.  I suppose the logical conclusion of that 

 3    argument would be that there should be no floor.  

 4    One person could create a village, perhaps, is a 

 5    suggestion.

 6                 Five hundred people 150 years ago is 

 7    very different than 500 people in the year 2023, 

 8    regardless of outmigration or not.  In 1870, when 

 9    this law was originally enacted, there were 

10    4.5 million people in New York State.  Five 

11    hundred people was very different in 1870 than it 

12    is in 2024 in a state of 19 million people.

13                 So yes, it's high time that we 

14    updated this absolutely antiquated law, and I 

15    appreciate the opportunity to correct some of the 

16    statements that were made earlier.

17                 Thank you, Mr. President.

18                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Stavisky.  

19                 SENATOR STAVISKY:   Thank you, 

20    Mr. President.

21                 Very briefly, let me remind my 

22    colleagues that we are a representative democracy 

23    where people elect us to do things that they 

24    cannot do for themselves.  And in fact we even 

25    accept the results of these elections, and we do 


                                                               189

 1    the best we can.

 2                 I live right now in Whitestone, in 

 3    Queens.  And prior to 1898, Whitestone was a 

 4    village in the Town of Flushing.  And yet in 1898 

 5    there was a referendum and the people in this 

 6    section of northeast Queens voted against it.  

 7    But nevertheless, there was the consolidation of 

 8    various towns and villages in 1898, 125 or so 

 9    years ago.  We accepted the results, and we are 

10    proud to be part of the City of New York.

11                 Thank you, Mr. President.

12                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Stec.

13                 SENATOR STEC:   Thank you, 

14    Mr. President.  On the bill.

15                 So the bill sponsor's correct in the 

16    process, and I think it's worth pointing that 

17    out.  As a long-time town supervisor in 

18    Warren County, I presided over the attempt to 

19    create a village in my town.  Actually, it 

20    straddled the towns of Queensbury and Fort Ann in 

21    Warren and Washington County, on the shores of 

22    Lake George.  The name of the village would have 

23    been the Village of East Lake George.  

24                 I don't think there was a religious 

25    component there as much as it was shoreline 


                                                               190

 1    property taxpayers not liking how much of the 

 2    local tax burden they were paying for.

 3                 And I sat through -- and it took 

 4    them three attempts to get the petition correct 

 5    because the two town supervisors that presided 

 6    over this process, as pointed out, collect a 

 7    $6,000 check, go over the map, make sure that all 

 8    the Is are dotted, Ts are crossed.  Big 

 9    discussion over how to conduct this election.  

10    Ballot box in the fire hall, paper ballots, 

11    because, you know, these kinds of elections will 

12    happen all the time.  

13                 And it frustrated me as a town 

14    supervisor, seeing this and listening to the 

15    debate, as to what this was going to mean to the 

16    town's finances, to the potential village's 

17    finances, who's going to make out or not make out 

18    and the wisdom behind the money.  I understood 

19    the law was that the assessed value in the town 

20    for all town purposes still wasn't going to 

21    change.  You could hire your own assessor to do 

22    the village taxes, and that would only apply to 

23    the village taxes.  And at the end of the day, 

24    you were creating another layer of government and 

25    it was going to cost everybody more money.  


                                                               191

 1                 The wisdom of the decision said this 

 2    did not make sense, that this was a bad idea to 

 3    create the village.  But that was not the 

 4    question in front of the town supervisor.  And as 

 5    the town supervisor it was frustrating to me 

 6    because I knew the right answer.  

 7                 But that's not the point.  The point 

 8    is that the voters are the ones that -- we could 

 9    all decide, well, this person should be the 

10    governor, this person should be the president, 

11    this is how it should work.  At the end of the 

12    day, though, in a republic, the voters have the 

13    say.  

14                 And guess what?  The voters are 

15    smarter than I think a lot of us give them credit 

16    for sometimes.  And the voters in this case, when 

17    they finally got the petition right on the third 

18    attempt -- still a funny story to me how 

19    difficult it was for them to get the petition 

20    right -- the village rejected the formation of 

21    the village overwhelmingly.  I think it was 

22    two-to-one in both municipalities, both towns. 

23                 So the village -- potential village 

24    people figured out amongst themselves, this is a 

25    bad idea.  And they made the decision.  It was 


                                                               192

 1    their decision, not mine, to make.  

 2                 So again, the sponsor is a hundred 

 3    percent right that it isn't up to the town 

 4    supervisor to rule on this.  It is a matter for 

 5    the people in the village to have that vote.  And 

 6    I think that that's the important message here, 

 7    and we shouldn't be trying to make it more 

 8    difficult for locals to make these decisions.

 9                 Thank you.

10                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Bailey.

11                 SENATOR BAILEY:   Thank you, 

12    Mr. President.  On the bill.  

13                 I appreciate the sponsor's doing his 

14    job.  As legislators, we are supposed to be 

15    proactive as opposed to reactive, and forward 

16    looking as opposed to retrospective.  

17                 Many of the discussions that are 

18    heard in relation to this hints of constitutional 

19    originalism.  It seems as if there was a time, 

20    with the intent of the framers, that a lot of 

21    people in this room could not vote, could not own 

22    property, could not do a number of different 

23    things if we were strictly to adhere to the 

24    Constitution in its original form.  

25                 I believe that the Constitution is a 


                                                               193

 1    living document and that as we change times, we 

 2    either should change with the times or be changed 

 3    by them.

 4                 I also believe that if we are 

 5    constitutional originalists, if -- those who are 

 6    constitutional originalists should support the 

 7    14th Amendment, Section 3.

 8                 Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                 THE PRESIDENT:   Are there any other 

10    Senators wishing to be heard?

11                 Hearing -- seeing and hearing none, 

12    debate is closed.  

13                 The Secretary will ring the bell.

14                 Read the last section.  

15                 THE SECRETARY:   Section 8.  This 

16    act shall take effect immediately.

17                 THE PRESIDENT:   Call the roll.

18                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

19                 THE PRESIDENT:   Announce the 

20    results.

21                 Senator Mayer to explain her vote.

22                 SENATOR MAYER:   Thank you, 

23    Mr. President.  

24                 I appreciated the conversation on 

25    this bill.  But as the chair of the Education 


                                                               194

 1    Committee, I did want to correct some information 

 2    that I thought was inaccurate during the 

 3    conversation by my colleagues.  

 4                 This conference -- in fact, on a 

 5    bipartisan basis, has gone way -- as far as it 

 6    can and will continue to be incredibly supportive 

 7    of nonpublic schools, particularly religious 

 8    schools, both of our Jewish, Muslim and Catholic 

 9    partners, because we support parents choosing how 

10    they educate their children.  

11                 And just to remind my colleagues, 

12    we've substantially increased the amount of STEM 

13    funding for nonpublic schools to benefit many of 

14    our religious schools which could not afford 

15    expensive teachers in science, technology, 

16    engineering and math.  

17                 In addition, this year, with the 

18    Majority Leader's support, we worked with the 

19    Governor's office to expedite security funds 

20    going out the door more quickly, particularly at 

21    the behest of our Jewish day schools, which were 

22    spending a significant amount of money for 

23    overtime costs as a result of tensions 

24    surrounding the Israel-Hamas war.

25                 So we will continue to be the 


                                                               195

 1    strongest advocates for nonpublic, particularly 

 2    religious schools -- Jewish, Muslim, Catholic and 

 3    every other faith -- and the insinuation that we 

 4    have left them behind is simply inaccurate.  

 5                 I vote yes.

 6                 THE PRESIDENT:   Senator Mayer will 

 7    be recorded in the affirmative.

 8                 Announce the results.

 9                 THE SECRETARY:   In relation to 

10    Calendar 16, those Senators voting in the 

11    negative are Senators Ashby, Borrello, 

12    Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick, Felder, Gallivan, Griffo, 

13    Helming, Lanza, Martins, Mattera, Murray, 

14    Oberacker, O'Mara, Ortt, Palumbo, Rhoads, 

15    Rolison, Stec, Tedisco Walczyk, Weber and Weik.

16                 Ayes, 40.  Nays, 22.

17                 THE PRESIDENT:   The bill is passed.

18                 Senator Gianaris, that completes the 

19    reading of the controversial calendar.

20                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Mr. President, 

21    is there any further business at the desk?  

22                 THE PRESIDENT:   There is no further 

23    business at the desk.

24                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Move to adjourn 

25    until Tuesday, January 16th, at 3:00 p.m., with 


                                                               196

 1    the intervening days being legislative days.

 2                 THE PRESIDENT:   On motion, the 

 3    Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday, 

 4    January 16th, at 3:00 p.m., with the intervening 

 5    days being legislative days.

 6                 (Whereupon, at 12:13 p.m., the 

 7    Senate adjourned.)

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25