Regular Session - March 13, 2025

                                                                   1021

 1                NEW YORK STATE SENATE

 2                          

 3                          

 4               THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD

 5                          

 6                          

 7                          

 8                          

 9                  ALBANY, NEW YORK

10                   March 13, 2025

11                     11:25 a.m.

12                          

13                          

14                   REGULAR SESSION

15  

16  

17  

18  SENATOR ROXANNE J. PERSAUD, Acting President

19  ALEJANDRA N. PAULINO, ESQ., Secretary

20  

21  

22  

23  

24  

25  


                                                               1022

 1                P R O C E E D I N G S

 2                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 3    Senate will come to order.  

 4                 I ask everyone to please rise and 

 5    recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

 6                 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited 

 7    the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)

 8                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   In the 

 9    absence of clergy, let us bow our heads in a 

10    moment of silent reflection or prayer.  

11                 (Whereupon, the assemblage respected 

12    a moment of silence.)

13                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Reading 

14    of the Journal.

15                 THE SECRETARY:   In Senate, 

16    Wednesday, March 12, 2025, the Senate met 

17    pursuant to adjournment.  The Journal of Tuesday, 

18    March 11, 2025, was read and approved.  On 

19    motion, the Senate adjourned.

20                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Without 

21    objection, the Journal stands approved as read.

22                 Presentation of petitions.

23                 Messages from the Assembly.

24                 Messages from the Governor.

25                 Reports of standing committees.


                                                               1023

 1                 Reports of select committees.

 2                 Communications and reports from 

 3    state officers.

 4                 Motions and resolutions.

 5                 Senator Gianaris.

 6                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Good morning, 

 7    Madam President.  

 8                 There's a privileged resolution at 

 9    the desk, Senate Resolution 488, by 

10    Leader Stewart-Cousins.  Please take it up and 

11    read its title.

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

13    Secretary will read.

14                 THE SECRETARY:   Resolution 488, by 

15    Senator Stewart-Cousins, resolution in response 

16    to the 2025-2026 Executive Budget submission.

17                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Madam President, 

18    this resolution, as everyone knows, is the 

19    Senate's one-house budget resolution.  We have an 

20    agreement with our Minority colleagues that 

21    debate will be strictly limited to two hours.  

22                 As usual, our Finance chair, 

23    Senator Krueger, will lead the debate for the 

24    Majority, with other members getting up in their 

25    areas of expertise as necessary.  


                                                               1024

 1                 We're ready to begin.

 2                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

 3    O'Mara.

 4                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Good aft -- good 

 5    morning.  It's not afternoon yet.

 6                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Good 

 7    morning, Senator.

 8                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Good morning, 

 9    Madam President.  

10                 I have a few questions on the 

11    budget, if Senator Krueger would not mind 

12    responding to some questions.

13                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

14    Krueger, do you mind?

15                 SENATOR O'MARA:   It's been a long 

16    two weeks without you, Liz, so it's good to get 

17    back together again after a month of budget 

18    hearings.  But --

19                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

20    Senator is ready.

21                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I'm ready.

22                 SENATOR O'MARA:   All right.  I've 

23    just got a few questions.  I don't think I have a 

24    whole lot today.  I know we've got a lot of 

25    members here that do have a lot of questions on 


                                                               1025

 1    this.  

 2                 But overall, this is roughly about a 

 3    $259 billion budget at this point?

 4                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   That is correct, 

 5    Senator.

 6                 SENATOR O'MARA:   And you have 

 7    increased, over -- through you, Madam President 

 8    if the Senator will continue to yield.

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Will the 

10    Senator yield?  

11                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I do.

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

13    Senator yields.

14                 SENATOR O'MARA:   And this is an 

15    increase -- this one-house budget bill here in 

16    the Senate is an increase of how much over what 

17    the Executive proposed, the Executive's -- how 

18    much over what the Governor proposed?

19                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Approximately 

20    6.5 billion, Madam President.

21                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Through you, 

22    Madam President, if the Senator will continue to 

23    yield.

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Will the 

25    Senator yield?  


                                                               1026

 1                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

 2                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 3    Senator yields.

 4                 SENATOR O'MARA:   The -- and the 

 5    Governor had raised spending about what over last 

 6    year?  

 7                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   The Governor's 

 8    growth between last year and this year is 

 9    approximately 3.6 percent.

10                 SENATOR O'MARA:   No, the dollar 

11    increase I was asking for.

12                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   About $9 billion 

13    dollars.

14                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Okay.  So through 

15    you, Madam President, if the Senator will 

16    continue to yield.

17                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

18    Senator yield?  

19                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I do.

20                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

21    Senator yields.

22                 SENATOR O'MARA:   So in all total, 

23    this is about $17 billion increased spending over 

24    last year's budget?  

25                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Approximately 


                                                               1027

 1    15 billion, Madam President.  Her 9 billion plus 

 2    our 6.5 billion.  15 and a half billion.

 3                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Through you, 

 4    Madam President, if the Senator will continue to 

 5    yield.

 6                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 7    Senator yield?  

 8                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I do.

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

10    Senator yields.

11                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Well, my figures 

12    have it closer to 17 billion, but what's a couple 

13    billion between friends here.

14                 And we're looking -- it's roughly -- 

15    it's almost a 13 percent increase over last 

16    year's budget, what we have proposed here.  Would 

17    you agree with that?

18                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.  You know, 

19    we're different on the exact numbers, but we show 

20    about a 12.7 percent from our one-house to last 

21    year, yes.

22                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Very good.  

23    Madam President, if the Senator will continue to 

24    yield.

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 


                                                               1028

 1    Senator yield?

 2                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

 3                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 4    Senator yields.

 5                 SENATOR O'MARA:   We came back to 

 6    the same number, because I have 12.7 percent on 

 7    my sheet here too.

 8                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   There we go.

 9                 SENATOR O'MARA:   We'll have to 

10    figure out where that $2 billion is not showing 

11    up or showing up here.  But we'll -- I'm sure 

12    we'll get to that before we get to the final 

13    budget here in a few weeks.

14                 Where is the -- through you, 

15    Madam President, if the Senator will continue to 

16    yield.

17                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

18    Senator yield?  

19                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

20                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

21    Senator yields.

22                 SENATOR O'MARA:   This 15 to 

23    17 billion dollars of increased spending, how is 

24    that being raised?  Where's the revenues coming 

25    from?  


                                                               1029

 1                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

 2    Madam President.  In our one-house we obviously 

 3    have the 800 million addition from the revenue 

 4    consensus agreement.  

 5                 We have an increase in the personal 

 6    income tax for the highest level earners in the 

 7    State of New York, an increase for those with 

 8    5 million and up in income, and another bump for 

 9    people with $25 million and up.  

10                 And then we also do an increase in 

11    the corporate income tax for businesses with over 

12    $5 million in revenue.  So larger businesses.

13                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Thank you, 

14    Senator.

15                 Madam President, if the Senator will 

16    continue to yield.

17                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

18    Senator yield?  

19                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I do.

20                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

21    Senator yields.

22                 SENATOR O'MARA:   We're increasing 

23    state income taxes on the highest earners, those 

24    over $5 million a year, is that correct?

25                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.


                                                               1030

 1                 SENATOR O'MARA:   And that rate is 

 2    going up to 10.8 percent for those -- 

 3                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.  Yes, 

 4    Madam President.

 5                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Through you, 

 6    Madam President, if the Senator will continue to 

 7    yield.

 8                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 9    Senator yield?  

10                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I do.

11                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

12    Senator yields.

13                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Now, in my 

14    district that I represent in rural upstate 

15    New York, frankly, there's not many of those 

16    earners in that district.  But in the state, 

17    there is.  And particularly in our financial 

18    services industry, which accounts for almost 

19    20 percent of our total revenues, are you 

20    concerned that raising income taxes -- are they 

21    going to cause more of those people to leave the 

22    state?

23                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

24    Madam President.  No, I'm actually not.  

25                 When you look at the data, not just 


                                                               1031

 1    questions of what do we charge in taxes or a 

 2    budget for the State of New York, but when you 

 3    look at it in relationship to the growth of the 

 4    gross product for New York State, New York State 

 5    at the end of 2024 -- granted, we've been in a 

 6    new administration for a couple of months now -- 

 7    had the most successful economy in the country.  

 8    We had higher growth than most states in the 

 9    country.  

10                 When you evaluate us in the 

11    decisions we make on tax policy or spending 

12    policy, a better evaluation would be looking at 

13    us as a world economy, not as one of 50 states.  

14    Because technically, if we were our own nation, 

15    New York State would be the 10th largest economy 

16    in the world.  

17                 So when you ask questions about why 

18    do people come here to live or to grow businesses 

19    or to stay and to do business, you look at it in 

20    a world economic analysis.  And on that analysis, 

21    on report after report after report, New York is 

22    doing terrifically.  

23                 So I am not worried that a very 

24    small percentage increase on the highest earners 

25    on their state taxes will have any impact on the 


                                                               1032

 1    decisions they make from a marginal perspective 

 2    on the people who live here.  

 3                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Thank you.  

 4                 Through you, Madam President, if the 

 5    Senator will continue to yield.

 6                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 7    Senator yield?

 8                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I do.

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

10    Senator yields.

11                 SENATOR O'MARA:   We seem to be 

12    doing our best here in New York -- and I disagree 

13    with your analysis on the impacts of these tax 

14    increases, particularly in light of recent news 

15    just in the last couple of weeks, and in the last 

16    few days, that the New York Stock Exchange is 

17    opening an exchange in Texas.  Goldman Sachs, one 

18    of the largest financial firms in the state, in 

19    the country, in the world, is encouraging their 

20    New York managers to move to Texas.  

21                 These -- I don't see how these tax 

22    increases are not going to just accelerate that 

23    even more and move higher earners out of our 

24    state.

25                 But what is your analysis of Goldman 


                                                               1033

 1    encouraging their workers to move to Texas, of 

 2    the New York Stock Exchange opening in Dallas?  

 3    What's the impact of that going to have on the 

 4    revenues in New York State?  

 5                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Appreciate the 

 6    question, Madam President.  

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


                                                               1034

 1                 The fact is in today's world where 

 2    finance industry can be anywhere -- it's true you 

 3    don't need to be tethered to a specific stock 

 4    market floor somewhere, everything is done in the 

 5    clouds -- there is more distribution of the 

 6    financial sector, as there's more distribution of 

 7    other parts of the economy that have been rushing 

 8    to New York.  So that New York City, particularly 

 9    its economy, is heavily driven now by healthcare, 

10    professional business services, tech, fintech, 

11    retail, trade, manufacturing, education, where 

12    growth has been extremely strong.  

13                 And again, I was describing that we 

14    raised both corporate taxes through 9A on larger 

15    industries -- businesses, excuse me -- as well as 

16    the highest earner PIT.  So those companies have 

17    to pay those taxes whether they are in New York 

18    or not in New York.  I would prefer they stay in 

19    New York for everyone.  But if they're doing 

20    business with the State of New York, those taxes 

21    will come to us whether they decide to move their 

22    location to Texas or somewhere else.

23                 For the very top earners who are 

24    sometimes involved with these sectors, and often 

25    not, they already have multiple homes.  They 


                                                               1035

 1    already go back and forth.  So they pay part of 

 2    their taxes to us here in New York, and they may 

 3    pay taxes somewhere else.

 4                 Yes, you can read me reports of 

 5    such-and-such company.  But when I talk to, 

 6    actually, people who are in business to move 

 7    them, what I'm hearing back is, Yes, some of them 

 8    are moving there.  And then they say, Oh, I don't 

 9    like it here.  I can't move back the company 

10    right away, I already moved people.  But I'm not 

11    spending a lot of time here.  New York is where 

12    it's happening.  New York is where the innovation 

13    happens, where the talent is.  

14                 And frankly, combined with 

15    climate-change crises, which we are apparently 

16    not officially allowed to talk about in this 

17    country anymore, many of those same states are 

18    the states people are actually having to flee.

19                 So big picture, I'm not really 

20    worried.

21                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Through you, 

22    Madam President, if the Senator will continue to 

23    yield.

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

25    Senator yield?  


                                                               1036

 1                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

 2                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 3    Senator yields.

 4                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Well, I do worry 

 5    because I see the people leaving.  And I see 

 6    people leaving -- even lower-income people 

 7    leaving because of the affordability in this 

 8    state and the amount of people leaving to other, 

 9    lower-cost states.

10                 Now, this $259 billion one-house 

11    budget here actually comes in a few billion 

12    dollars less than what the Assembly one-house 

13    came in at, as I'm informed.

14                 But it's a $17 billion increase, and 

15    I'm assuming that it is a balanced budget, 

16    because it has to be, by law.  But we have 

17    concerns over outyear budget gaps that are 

18    created through this budget of an estimated -- 

19    for fiscal year '27, 6.5 billion; fiscal year 

20    '28, 9.8 billion; and fiscal year '29, 11 billion 

21    of structural deficits moving forward.

22                 How is this budget setting us up -- 

23    or why is this budget setting us up with these 

24    outyear gaps?

25                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Sorry.  I 


                                                               1037

 1    appreciate my colleague's questions.  And even 

 2    his statement about -- earlier in his prequestion 

 3    was about concerns about affordability.  And I 

 4    want to assure everyone the Democratic Conference 

 5    is very focused on affordability for New York.  

 6    And if we weren't just talking about the 

 7    financial plan but, rather, what we have put in 

 8    our one-house budget and what we have not 

 9    accepted from the Governor, the bottom-line theme 

10    of that is how we increase affordability and 

11    protect New Yorkers of lower incomes to be able 

12    to stay here and take care of their children and 

13    pay their taxes and continue to live and work and 

14    thrive here.

15                 So we are very focused on 

16    affordability, which we'll probably get to a 

17    little later, hopefully in the presentation.

18                 And as far as outyear debt, I've 

19    been here 23 years.  I'm not sure when we've not 

20    shown outyear debt looking pretty bad, sometimes 

21    horrible.  It's one of the reasons we did support 

22    the Governor in investing even more money in 

23    state reserves and rainy day funds, so that if in 

24    fact bad things happen to our economy or bad 

25    policy comes out of Washington -- always a 


                                                               1038

 1    possibility right now -- we will be able to try 

 2    to sustain that.

 3                 In fact, if something radically 

 4    different happens within the budget year or 

 5    heading towards the following budget year, guess 

 6    what?  We'll be back, and we'll have to adjust.

 7                 But right now the fact that there is 

 8    outyear debt showing approximately I think 

 9    7 billion -- do we agree with that?  

10    Approximately, we agree.  We have lived through 

11    years where we saw much larger dollar amounts in 

12    outyear debt.

13                 I guess the other good news for us, 

14    we have less debt per capita now than we've had 

15    in 20 years.  So New York is actually financially 

16    in a very strong position, or was by the end of 

17    2024.  Again, lots of things may be happening in 

18    2025.  

19                 Our growth rate is good.  Actually, 

20    we're seeing people return to the State of 

21    New York, based on demographic data.  Job 

22    opportunities have been strong, and our debt per 

23    capita and in relationship to GDP has actually 

24    been lower, and the bond market is assuring us 

25    they are very comfortable with the state's debt 


                                                               1039

 1    situation and are still very positive about the 

 2    future of New York economically.

 3                 Thank you, Madam President.

 4                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Through you, 

 5    Madam President, if the Senator will continue to 

 6    yield.

 7                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 8    Senator yield?  

 9                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

10                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

11    Senator yields.

12                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Senator, in 

13    addition to spending $259 billion in this 

14    one-house budget proposal, there are, by my 

15    count, 162 Article VII policy proposals in this 

16    budget.  Most or certainly many of those are 

17    really nonbudgetary items of policy in here, one 

18    of the biggest ones being the NY HEAT Act that is 

19    your legislation, and that has no budgetary 

20    impact on the budget.  

21                 Why is that and all these other 160 

22    policy proposals in this budget?  

23                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Well, there's a 

24    different answer for each one of those policy 

25    questions.  But since -- thank you very much for 


                                                               1040

 1    bringing up my NY HEAT Act.  The NY HEAT Act is 

 2    projected by our work and by outside reviewers to 

 3    save the ratepayers of New York an enormous 

 4    amount of money.  

 5                 So we often think of looking at 

 6    budget issues as what's going to cost us money, 

 7    but isn't it refreshing to actually have a policy 

 8    proposal that would save the ratepayers of 

 9    New York so much money as is projected the NY 

10    HEAT Act would do?  

11                 Very simply, just on one part of it, 

12    if we are not spending hundreds of millions of 

13    dollars per year to put new oil pipes in the 

14    ground, that saves the utility companies that 

15    cost and that saves us as ratepayers that cost.  

16    And frankly the State of New York as a government 

17    also has to pay these costs in our own utilities.  

18    So I think that's the perfect example of the kind 

19    of policy issue we should take up in the budget.

20                 SENATOR O'MARA:   Through you, 

21    Madam President, actually just on the resolution.

22                 Thank you, Senator --

23                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Thank you, sir.

24                 SENATOR O'MARA:   -- for your --

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 


                                                               1041

 1    O'Mara on the resolution.

 2                 SENATOR O'MARA:   You know, I'll 

 3    just reiterate my strong concerns with this 

 4    increased spending proposal, $259 billion.  Now, 

 5    we on this side of the aisle, you know, we lost 

 6    the majority in the election of 2018.  It has 

 7    been one-party rule in this state starting in 

 8    2019.  The budget that year was $168 billion -- 

 9    $90 billion less than this year's budget in just 

10    seven years.  

11                 That increased spending is 

12    unsustainable.  It is leading to and is an 

13    exacerbation of the affordability of living in 

14    this state.  And we're seeing it with people 

15    voting with their feet and leaving this state.  

16                 We're seeing it with our largest 

17    industry in this state, the financial services 

18    industry -- 20 percent of our total revenues -- 

19    leaving this state for greener pastures, leaving 

20    to Texas where they're being lured.  And now we 

21    have the biggest players in the financial 

22    services industries encouraging their top 

23    employees to leave New York State.

24                 The concerns are immense.  But just 

25    in addition to the spending increases of $90 


                                                               1042

 1    billion in seven years, the state's population 

 2    has only increased 1.5 percent since that time.  

 3    So the per-capita spending is much higher than it 

 4    was.  

 5                 We have, in this budget proposal, 

 6    162 Article VIIs.  The NY HEAT Act, which has 

 7    absolutely nothing to do with this budget -- and 

 8    I'm not asking any questions on this because we 

 9    have members here that are eager to ask these 

10    questions.

11                 But, you know, policies in here, in 

12    this budget, like allowing bars and restaurants 

13    to buy 12 bottles or liquor or wine from a liquor 

14    store, that's not related to a budget.  There's 

15    just things in here that are totally unrelated to 

16    the spending plan and should not be included in a 

17    budget.  They should be debated individually on 

18    this floor so that we can get into those, the 

19    pros and cons of each.  

20                 Certainly in a $259 billion budget, 

21    there's a lot of good things in here that you 

22    can -- that you can look at and say yeah, that's 

23    good, that's great.  But is it affordable?  And 

24    is it sustainable for the citizens of New York 

25    State to continue down this road of spending -- 


                                                               1043

 1    increasing $90 billion in just seven years, from 

 2    a $168 billion budget, which was too big then, to 

 3    a $259 billion budget, which is way too big 

 4    today?  

 5                 This budget further does nothing 

 6    to -- despite all the spending, does nothing to 

 7    pay down the unemployment insurance debt that was 

 8    built up during COVID.  My understanding is the 

 9    Assembly's one-house budget does eliminate that, 

10    which is an important thing to eliminate for the 

11    cost of doing business in New York so that 

12    employers are not being assessed fees upon every 

13    employee, when 35 other states in this country 

14    used their COVID -- federal COVID relief funds to 

15    pay down that debt, yet we're still somewhere 

16    around $7 billion owed on that and taxing every 

17    employer every year on that.

18                 It's something that needs to be paid 

19    down.  It's something that we should be 

20    addressing in this budget.  It's something we 

21    should have addressed in the last several years' 

22    budgets.  And it's just -- it's not appropriate 

23    to not be dealing with that.  It's irresponsible 

24    to not be paying that down.

25                 We need to be looking at ways to 


                                                               1044

 1    make the cost of doing business in New York 

 2    lower, the cost of living in New York lower.  

 3    Most everything in this budget is making things 

 4    more expensive and less affordable, and that is 

 5    not the direction that we should be going.

 6                 But thank you, Madam President.  

 7    I'll be voting no on this one-house budget 

 8    resolution and encouraging others to join me.

 9                 Thank you.

10                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

11    you, Senator.

12                 Senator Mattera.

13                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Thank you, 

14    Madam President.  

15                 This is on Part EEE, the HEAT Act.  

16    And would the sponsor please yield for a couple 

17    of questions?  

18                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Will the 

19    Senator yield?  

20                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I certainly will.

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

22    Senator yields.

23                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Thank you.  And 

24    it's great to see you, Senator Krueger.

25                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Thank you.


                                                               1045

 1                 SENATOR MATTERA:   And I know you're 

 2    very consistent and persistent on your HEAT Act.  

 3    But --

 4                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I like to be 

 5    consistent and persistent on almost everything.  

 6    Thank you.  

 7                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Oh, you are.  And 

 8    I'm going to tell you, it's just a total disaster 

 9    for all New Yorkers.  

10                 (Laughter.) 

11                 SENATOR MATTERA:   I see that before 

12    January 1, 2030, that no resident customer will 

13    have gas services discontinued without the 

14    consent of the customer.  Will customers have 

15    their gas services discontinued after January 1, 

16    2030, with -- against their consent?  Will the 

17    customer have a say?

18                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Thank you.  Thank 

19    you for asking the question.

20                 So actually we have amended the bill 

21    introduced this year, because we do hear people 

22    and we try to modify to make our bills better, 

23    and I think we have.  

24                 So in this new version in fact there 

25    is a two-year process with community 


                                                               1046

 1    participation and review before there's any 

 2    decision about ending gas service in any specific 

 3    geographic area.  And there has to be 

 4    alternatives available before any gas service 

 5    would be ended.

 6                 So no, there's no reason for people 

 7    to worry that if they haven't shifted to an 

 8    alternative or are not able to shift to an 

 9    alternative, that they will lose their gas 

10    service.

11                 SENATOR MATTERA:   So, 

12    Madam President, will the sponsor still continue 

13    to yield.

14                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

15    Senator yield?  

16                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I will.

17                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

18    Senator yields.

19                 SENATOR MATTERA:   So does that mean 

20    that the community gets together and they say, We 

21    don't want to eliminate our natural gas, we're 

22    fine with this -- you're then okay with this 

23    bill, this is saying that that's okay?  

24                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   If the community 

25    doesn't come to an agreement about the proposal 


                                                               1047

 1    being made and there's no other alternatives 

 2    available to people there in existing buildings, 

 3    yes.  

 4                 Although I think that dialogue over 

 5    two years might really focus on "Look how 

 6    expensive your current utility costs are and how 

 7    much cheaper it will be if we do change to a less 

 8    costly sustainable."

 9                 And I suspect many of these 

10    communities, once they go through this process, 

11    will come to the same conclusion many of us 

12    already have come to, that our utility rates are 

13    eating us alive because we're on an oil-and-gas- 

14    based system and there are far less expensive and 

15    safer options.

16                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Madam President, 

17    would the sponsor still continue to yield for 

18    questions.

19                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

20    Senator yield?  

21                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I will.

22                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

23    Senator yields.

24                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Will the bill 

25    still include the language to eliminate the 


                                                               1048

 1    so-called hundred-foot rule, which requires 

 2    utilities to provide gas services to new 

 3    customers that are within a hundred feet of the 

 4    gas line for free?

 5                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   So 

 6    Madam President, yes, it still has the ending of 

 7    the hundred-foot rule.  Which, one, allows PSC to 

 8    decide to waiver and allow the pipes if there's a 

 9    justification that that's the only option 

10    available in that specific building -- often a 

11    manufacturing setting or location.  

12                 But also it transfers the cost of 

13    that to whoever is asking for that new pipe to go 

14    in, rather than all of us utility ratepayers 

15    having to pay that cost.

16                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Will the sponsor 

17    still continue to yield.

18                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

19    Senator yield?

20                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I will.

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

22    Senator yields.

23                 SENATOR MATTERA:   So -- good, so 

24    you did answer that.  So right now the customers, 

25    there it is, there's five homes that -- usually 


                                                               1049

 1    that's how that works, is a lot, five homes.  

 2    They go and they put the application in -- just 

 3    want to make sure all New Yorkers understand 

 4    this.  If they go put the application in, that 

 5    means the utility will be coming in and they will 

 6    be putting that in for free and it's not going to 

 7    cost any of the ratepayers.

 8                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   No.  Right now it 

 9    costs all the ratepayers.  We pay for all of that 

10    through our rates.

11                 Under this law, only those 

12    facilities that we're waivering out of not being 

13    able to get the pipes and got approval to 

14    continue to put the pipes in for those new 

15    buildings, would pay for it themselves instead of 

16    every one of us in the state paying for it.

17                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Would our sponsor 

18    still continue to yield.

19                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

20    Senator yield?  

21                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I do.

22                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

23    Senator yields.

24                 SENATOR MATTERA:   So will the 

25    ratepayers pay for all the electrification then 


                                                               1050

 1    also?  

 2                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Actually, the 

 3    state will be paying for the transition costs 

 4    moving into an electrification system, with 

 5    special programs even within my legislation to 

 6    have the maximum utility cost be no more than 

 7    6 percent of people's income.  Many people are 

 8    paying more than that now, particularly I think 

 9    in Nassau County, where my colleague lives, I 

10    think has one of the highest utility rates 

11    certainly in the state, but maybe in the country.  

12    So that it will actually be lower utility rates 

13    as we transition to electricity, with the state 

14    picking up much of the cost of the transition.

15                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Would the sponsor 

16    still continue to yield for --

17                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

18    Senator yield?

19                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I will.

20                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

21    Senator yields.

22                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Where is this in 

23    any of -- I haven't seen any of that language -- 

24    in other words, the state is going to be paying 

25    for this.  Because right now our ratepayers, 


                                                               1051

 1    right now their bills are skyrocketing because of 

 2    the mandates that have been put in place.

 3                 So do you believe that the emission 

 4    mandates under the CLCPA are still achievable by 

 5    the 2030 deadline?  Do you really feel, in other 

 6    words, that our infrastructure -- it's always the 

 7    cart before the horse, what we do here.  Do you 

 8    feel that our infrastructure right now can handle 

 9    what we're looking to do by 2030?  I know on 

10    Long Island not one thing has been done about 

11    that to go and make sure the infrastructure's put 

12    in place, then we can transition into renewable 

13    energy.

14                 So my question again is, where does 

15    it say in here that, in other words, the state's 

16    paying that?  Because I know our utility bills 

17    are going up as we speak because of this mandate.

18                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

19    Madam President.  Our utility bills are going up 

20    because we're so heavily dependent on oil and 

21    gas, often foreign, and the skyrocketing costs of 

22    the products we're using under the system we 

23    have.  

24                 The costs are not going up because 

25    of the CLCPA.  My colleague is right, we're not 


                                                               1052

 1    as far along as we hoped to be.  I think we'd 

 2    actually be seeing utility rate decreases if we 

 3    were further ahead.  

 4                 But his two specific questions, 

 5    where in this bill does it say that that cost is 

 6    going to be taken on by the state -- and I will 

 7    refer him to Section 3008--B, page 108 on my 

 8    printout, section -- it's always a challenge -- 

 9    66-z and paragraph 4, Section (b), "have access 

10    to funding and technical support for the purchase 

11    and installation of customer-owned equipment at 

12    low or no cost" through the state.

13                 And on the bigger question, Can we 

14    meet the targets of the CLCPA - and my colleague 

15    might be right.  But you know what we did in the 

16    CLCPA that takes care of that question?  We 

17    require reliability.  So if we don't have the 

18    alternative options with reliability, we are not 

19    going to meet the 2030 deadline.  We will have to 

20    extend.  But it requires no legislative change 

21    now.  

22                 But to assure all New Yorkers, when 

23    we wrote the CLCPA we were very conscious about 

24    making sure that reliability was a top priority, 

25    along with transition to sustainable options.  


                                                               1053

 1    And so you don't get one without the other.  We 

 2    require both.  It doesn't require us to change 

 3    the law if we aren't going to meet a 2030 

 4    deadline in any specific subsection of that law.  

 5    We were smart.  We're covered.

 6                 Thank you, Madam President.

 7                 SENATOR MATTERA:   So would the 

 8    sponsor still yield for a couple of questions.

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

10    Senator continue to yield?

11                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

13    Senator yields.

14                 SENATOR MATTERA:   So I am so happy, 

15    I am so thrilled that you finally told all 

16    New Yorkers that in other words that we're not 

17    going to meet this goal, because it's again the 

18    cart before the horse.  

19                 So who is going to pay for the 

20    equipment needed for this transition?  Who is 

21    going to be -- who is going to be -- who is going 

22    to be using -- who's going to get this equipment?  

23    Who's going to be -- to transition into this?  

24                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

25    Madam President, I think I just read the section 


                                                               1054

 1    of the NY HEAT Act that explains that, that it 

 2    will be a cost that applies to the state.  And 

 3    we're prepared to deal with this because, guess 

 4    what, it's going to be saving everybody money.  

 5                 So there are some up-front costs in 

 6    infrastructure to change our model of heating and 

 7    air conditioning and lighting our houses into new 

 8    sustainable models.  But that infrastructure cost 

 9    will be made up for very quickly because the 

10    actual kilowatt hours of cost dramatically 

11    plummet when you make that change, not to mention 

12    the advantages for the environment and our 

13    personal health.  So I'm not concerned about 

14    that.  

15                 And you say I've made some grandiose 

16    statement that we might not hit the 2030 

17    waiver -- '30 deadline.  Some sections of it are 

18    2035, some sections I think are even later than 

19    2035.  That's right, we recognized when we wrote 

20    the law, when we worked for several years on a 

21    plan, that we were going to do our best, we were 

22    going to be as broad-based-thinking as we could 

23    be, and we were going to count on the industry to 

24    actually come up with new models that could be 

25    even more effective and save us even more money.  


                                                               1055

 1                 And you know what?  Even though we 

 2    haven't hit any of those deadlines, that's 

 3    exactly what's happened.  The kilowatt-hour costs 

 4    for wind and solar and geothermal have dropped 

 5    significantly.  The technology's getting better 

 6    and better.  So even though, yes, we have 

 7    infrastructure costs in changing the model of how 

 8    we handle energy in our state, it's not just a 

 9    win economically, it's not just a win for 

10    climate, it's also resulted in a whole new world 

11    of jobs opening up, today and in the future.

12                 And that's -- so it's a win/win/win.  

13    We're saving people money long term.  We're 

14    creating an infrastructure that has good-paying 

15    labor jobs, unionized jobs.  And it's actually 

16    ultimately cost-saving the state and utility 

17    payers dramatically larger amounts of money than 

18    if we didn't do what we're doing.

19                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Will the sponsor 

20    please continue to yield.

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

22    Senator yield?  

23                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I will.

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

25    Senator yields.


                                                               1056

 1                 SENATOR MATTERA:   I'm so glad, 

 2    Senator, that you brought up jobs.  Do you 

 3    realize the jobs, the millions of jobs that are 

 4    going to be lost?  We had the pipefitters up here 

 5    yesterday.  Really, they are so concerned.  The 

 6    apprentices, there they are.  Do you realize in 

 7    the State of New York that we have licensing, we 

 8    have to have certifications that the state put 

 9    forward.  Right?  The gas operator's 

10    qualification, this came about.  

11                 We make sure that we have to train 

12    all these workers to say to them, Guess what, now 

13    you're going to have to become an electrician.  

14    That's how bad this is.  Millions of jobs, not 

15    just for the contractors, don't -- seriously, 

16    this is the truth.  They were up here yesterday, 

17    very, very concerned.  

18                 We're asking the state to make -- 

19    the state is asking to make sure that our workers 

20    are certified.  We do this.  The next thing you 

21    know, to say to them, Guess what, we're going to 

22    shut it down by 2030 -- which I hope it's going 

23    to be a pause, just like congestion pricing was a 

24    pause.  But guess what, then it continued.  

25                 But my point again is this.  What 


                                                               1057

 1    about the contractors, the utility workers that 

 2    are trained for this?  Because New York State 

 3    makes that sure that we train all these workers.  

 4    Just me personally, what I have done to get the 

 5    hardworking men and women to go to work, get into 

 6    that trench, to learn, to be qualified.  And 

 7    you're saying it's going to create jobs?  Are you 

 8    telling right now all these workers, Senator, 

 9    that guess what, you better go right now, get 

10    training to be an electrician?

11                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

12    Madam President --

13                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Because there's 

14    nothing in here that states where the funding is 

15    for all these people to get retrained.  I was 

16    wondering -- I was hoping -- we talked about this 

17    last year, that we were going to have something 

18    like that in here this year.

19                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

20    Madam President.  We continue to invest in 

21    training in our state budgets across the board on 

22    many different issues.  

23                 The pipefitters -- and I know my 

24    colleague is a pipefitter, so I appreciate his 

25    unique specialty area.  We're not laying off 


                                                               1058

 1    pipefitters tomorrow.  These are 25-year 

 2    timelines.  It's new generations of people coming 

 3    in who will need to be trained and certified and 

 4    licensed in new fields, not just the traditional 

 5    ones that pipefitters have been doing.  

 6                 There will still need to be 

 7    pipefitters, but they might be running different 

 8    products through those pipes.  In fact, yesterday 

 9    I believe the pipefitters were here in New York 

10    State talking about support for training in 

11    geothermal because they're so excited about 

12    moving into geothermal.  So they recognize 

13    themselves that the world is changing, that the 

14    opportunities for the next generation of workers 

15    coming in are real.  

16                 But there will be new training 

17    requirements.  And frankly, I've talked to many 

18    construction unions about what the impact is of a 

19    changing world, and they recognize as proactive 

20    unions that jobs change for their workers over 

21    time all the time, hence why they have continuing 

22    education, continuing training, internships and 

23    apprenticeships that are training people in 

24    different skills than perhaps their father who 

25    was in the same union 30 years earlier.   That's 


                                                               1059

 1    what happens in the world and in business and in 

 2    jobs.  

 3                 And again, the data is clear:  There 

 4    are more jobs for people in a -- moving into a 

 5    green economy than there are under the current 

 6    system.  So no, I don't worry that we're going to 

 7    be laying people off and telling them "There's no 

 8    future for you."  I do not accept that argument.

 9                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Through you, 

10    Madam President, I want to take a little time for 

11    just a couple more questions, please.  Would the 

12    sponsor please --

13                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

14    Senator yield?

15                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I do.

16                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

17    Senator yields.

18                 SENATOR MATTERA:   You know, and I'm 

19    going to say something that was so important, 

20    that there it is, you're eliminating natural gas.  

21    This is what you're looking to do.  I know this.  

22    And you know what, for somebody that you're 

23    sitting there saying it's not going to eliminate 

24    jobs, and you're sitting there and saying, 

25    Senator, that in other words they have to be 


                                                               1060

 1    retrained -- there's nothing in this that shows 

 2    that, in other words, we are going to put money 

 3    into education with the apprenticeship programs.  

 4    There isn't anything.

 5                 So the other thing is we talked 

 6    about, yes, we're talking about -- which is very, 

 7    very important -- thermal energy.  Okay?  I have 

 8    nothing in here that says anything about thermal 

 9    energy.  

10                 Let's talk about green hydrogen.  

11    There's nothing in here that says anything about 

12    that.  

13                 Let's talk about retooling our 

14    existing power plants, which I have bills out 

15    that I'm hoping that Senator Parker will be 

16    looking to do this, to go show about carbon 

17    capture.  Any stack that's going up that we could 

18    actually recover.  

19                 You know what?  And again, anything 

20    in the City of New York where you live, thousands 

21    and thousands and thousands of gallons per day of 

22    condensate that is being dumped out, all that 

23    water that's being dumped out into the East River 

24    that could be reused.  That's something that I 

25    would have loved to see -- 


                                                               1061

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

 2    are you on the resolution?  

 3                 SENATOR MATTERA:   So my question 

 4    is -- thank you, I just wanted to get into my 

 5    question.  My question is, I would have loved 

 6    that to be into your HEAT Act, that you were 

 7    going to add all this renewable energy.  But you 

 8    see nothing.  All this says is we're going to 

 9    eliminate natural gas in the future.  

10                 But you don't have anything else in 

11    there.  If you would have put a couple of things 

12    in there, it would have made me feel warm and 

13    cozy, I would feel very, very happy if you were 

14    to do that.  But you know what, there's nothing 

15    about education and there's nothing about other 

16    sources of renewable energy.  We just hear about 

17    it.  

18                 So I wish you would please maybe 

19    amend this and add this and make me happy.  

20                 (Laughter.)

21                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I'll try to 

22    make -- 

23                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

24    Senator was on the resolution.

25                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Well, I don't -- 


                                                               1062

 1    in fairness, Senator Mattera is right.  All of 

 2    that is not in the HEAT Act.  It's one bill.  I 

 3    carry many bills, many of us carry bills to 

 4    expand our transition to a climate-protecting 

 5    model of energy.  My colleague Senator Parker, as 

 6    the Energy chair, works on this all the time.  My 

 7    colleague Senator Harckham works on this all the 

 8    time.  

 9                 Many of the questions my colleague 

10    is asking me are answered actually in the CLCPA 

11    law that we've already passed, are answered in 

12    the Scoping Plan that has also been approved.  So 

13    that the answers are there.  But are they in this 

14    piece of legislation, just a small piece of the 

15    bigger assignment?  No, they're not in this piece 

16    of legislation.

17                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Madam President, 

18    again, on the bill.  And I thank you, 

19    Senator Krueger --

20                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

21    Mattera on the resolution.

22                 SENATOR MATTERA:   -- but please, 

23    amend this to do something.  

24                 You know, just so all New Yorkers 

25    understand what is going on over here, you right 


                                                               1063

 1    now with this HEAT Act is eliminating our natural 

 2    gas for our future.  It's amazing when I go speak 

 3    to my constituents and say that to them, 

 4    especially, you know, there it is, cooking that 

 5    you're going to make sure by 2030 if something 

 6    does happen, you're not going to be able to 

 7    replace your gas stove, your boiler, dryer, 

 8    et cetera -- ovens.  That's the way this is 

 9    looking right now.

10                 You're going to be losing -- if a 

11    business has gas in that building and for some 

12    reason is trying to rent a store out, just so 

13    everybody understands, a certain amount of time 

14    that they don't rent that, that gas will be 

15    eliminated.  That's what's going to be happening.  

16                 Natural gas is being eliminated from 

17    New York State.  Again, the cart before the 

18    horse.  Wind, solar, I could sit there and say, 

19    you know what, I like it, it's just not going to 

20    make -- it's not going to produce enough energy 

21    for what we're looking to do with the CLCPA.

22                 Battery storage is nothing but a 

23    total disaster.  All it is is an experiment.  And 

24    it's going to cost all New Yorkers trillions of 

25    dollars in their utility bills.  And it's already 


                                                               1064

 1    starting to happen, everybody.  And you know 

 2    what?  I'm receiving phone calls -- and I 

 3    guarantee you, everybody in this room, in this 

 4    great chamber, is receiving phone calls that 

 5    their bills are already starting to go up because 

 6    of this mandate.  

 7                 We need to sit back, you know what, 

 8    just sit there and say $280 billion is going to 

 9    fix our grid and all New York State -- that's the 

10    number I heard.  Two hundred and eighty billion 

11    dollars?  That's not even going to fix the grid 

12    in New York City, no less the rest of New York 

13    State.

14                 Again, it's going to cost billions 

15    of dollars with this experiment, and it's not 

16    going to work.  Let's do the right thing.  Let's 

17    look at the bills that I have right now in the 

18    Energy Committee that's not moving forward, 

19    because they're the right ones.  The most 

20    economical way and the most efficient way is to 

21    go right now, retool our existing power plants.  

22                 The other thing no one talks about, 

23    too, close to 40 percent -- 40 percent of our 

24    transmission lines come from other states.  We 

25    don't even talk about that.  But guess what, that 


                                                               1065

 1    are ran on fossil fuels.  That are ran on fossil 

 2    fuels.  We don't talk about eliminating them to 

 3    be self-sufficient and self-reliant.  We don't 

 4    talk about that.  

 5                 Right now we're boosting up the 

 6    pressure on the Iroquois Pipeline because we have 

 7    a gas capacity shortage.  Look at what just 

 8    happened this past winter.  A very cold winter.  

 9    We needed to make sure we boosted up.  But it's 

10    okay to have trucks, natural -- frozen natural 

11    gas.  Right now, guys, just understand this, 

12    driving on our roadways and our bridges, frozen 

13    natural gas.  Then it gets liquefied and gets 

14    pumped into our system.  That's the way 

15    New Yorkers -- that's what we have, a capacity 

16    shortage on natural gas.  But it's okay to have 

17    frozen natural gas to be on our roadways and our 

18    bridges right now.

19                 Again, this is called dysfunctional 

20    government at its worst.  If we don't do 

21    something about this right now, that -- other 

22    resources of renewable energy?  Sorry, our 

23    infrastructure cannot handle it.  

24                 It needs to be put on pause.  It 

25    needs to be stopped.  This is ridiculous.  It's 


                                                               1066

 1    just continuing every time, every year.  Jobs are 

 2    going to be lost.  My brothers and sisters in the 

 3    workforce are going to be losing their jobs.  But 

 4    there's nothing in here that states that we're 

 5    going to go and put money in education, we're 

 6    going to go and put money, in other words, that 

 7    we're going to protect your jobs.  But no, you've 

 8    got to go and find a new profession.  

 9                 Guess what?  The electricians are 

10    sitting back and going like this (gesturing).  

11    Which is good, I have good friends with 

12    electricians.  We need to make sure that we 

13    protect all jobs and continue.  There's a reason 

14    why we have certifications.  There's a reason why 

15    we have licenses.  And then what are we going to 

16    do?  We're going to just shut it down?  I 

17    understand that.  

18                 I wish -- I wish we would just put 

19    this on pause and just stop this madness.  And I, 

20    Madam President, vote no on this.

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

22    you, Senator.

23                 SENATOR MATTERA:   Thank you.

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

25    Stec.  


                                                               1067

 1                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

 2    Madam President, I just want to point out that my 

 3    colleague's last set of statements weren't 

 4    relating to the budget.  None of that is in the 

 5    NY HEAT Act.  None of that is actually in the 

 6    budget.  

 7                 Although there is an Article VII 

 8    section of the budget that has a number of 

 9    proposals to advance language for evaluating our 

10    energy situation, reviewing whether we in fact 

11    need to make any changes and updates in our gas 

12    supply infrastructure capital planning 

13    requirements, targets to limit energy burden and 

14    not to exceed the 6 percent of household income.  

15                 We already know from the CLCPA, 

16    which my colleague really was debating -- fine, 

17    it's just that it's not on the floor right now -- 

18    that there's a projected 200,000 new jobs in a 

19    green economy that will grow out of the law we 

20    did pass that he continues to urge that we pause.  

21    And he has every right to, but just for the 

22    record, none of it was germane to the bill we're 

23    debating today.

24                 Thank you, Madam President.

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 


                                                               1068

 1    you, Senator.

 2                 Senator Stec.

 3                 SENATOR STEC:   Thank you, 

 4    Madam President.  If the sponsor will yield, this 

 5    naval nuclear engineer is going to give everyone 

 6    a pass on my opinions on the lunacy of the energy 

 7    policies in this chamber.  I think my colleague 

 8    Senator Mattera covered that very well.  

 9                 I would like to discuss corrections 

10    and public protection.  Not the criminal 

11    protection, but the public protection portion of 

12    the budget.  

13                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

14    Salazar.

15                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Senator Salazar 

16    will be covering us for that.  

17                 SENATOR STEC:   Thank you.  

18                 Madam President, through you, if 

19    Senator Salazar would yield.

20                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

21    do you yield?

22                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

23                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

24    Senator yields.  

25                 SENATOR STEC:   Thank you, 


                                                               1069

 1    Madam President.  

 2                 This one-house budget includes the 

 3    Governor's proposal to authorize the closure of 

 4    up to five of our remaining prisons, is that 

 5    correct?

 6                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

 7                 SENATOR STEC:   Thank you, 

 8    Madam President.  If the sponsor would continue 

 9    to yield.

10                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

11    Senator yield?

12                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

13                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

14    Senator yields.  

15                 SENATOR STEC:   Does this budget 

16    repeal the HALT Act?  

17                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Through you, 

18    Madam President, no, it does not.

19                 SENATOR STEC:   Will the sponsor 

20    continue to yield?  

21                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

22                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

23    Senator yields.

24                 SENATOR STEC:   Thank you.  

25                 Does this budget make any changes at 


                                                               1070

 1    all to the HALT Act?  

 2                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Through you, 

 3    Madam President, no, it does not.

 4                 SENATOR STEC:   Will the sponsor 

 5    continue to yield?

 6                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 7    Senator yield?

 8                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

10    Senator yields.

11                 SENATOR STEC:   Thank you.  

12                 Does this budget include anything 

13    that would address the valid concerns of safety 

14    that we've been hearing from corrections officers 

15    since the adoption of HALT went into effect?

16                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Through you, 

17    Madam President.  I believe that the proposals, 

18    including the correctional facility closures, 

19    actually do address safety concerns.  

20                 It is in the interest of public 

21    safety and prison safety that prisons are able to 

22    operate effectively and efficiently, and right 

23    now that is not the case in many of our 

24    correctional facilities due to staffing 

25    shortages.  Which is a problem that the closure, 


                                                               1071

 1    potential closure of up to five facilities would 

 2    seek to address.

 3                 SENATOR STEC:   Will the sponsor 

 4    continue to yield?

 5                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 6    Senator yield?  

 7                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

 8                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 9    Senator yields.

10                 SENATOR STEC:   Thank you.  

11                 While I'm not sure that the 

12    corrections officers would agree that fewer 

13    corrections officers and concentrating remaining 

14    nominates into fewer prisons is a step in the 

15    direction of addressing issues of HALT or their 

16    own workforce safety.

17                 But the question would be, is there 

18    nothing in the budget that expands the ability 

19    for DOCCS to impose disciplinary sanctions on 

20    inmates who assault COs, staff or other inmates?  

21    Is that correct?

22                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Through you, 

23    Madam President, it is correct.

24                 And I would add that correction 

25    officers do already have the ability to 


                                                               1072

 1    discipline incarcerated individuals.

 2                 SENATOR STEC:   Through you, Madam 

 3    President, would the sponsor continue to yield?

 4                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 5    Senator yield?

 6                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

 7                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 8    Senator yields.

 9                 SENATOR STEC:   I suppose that would 

10    significantly depend on the -- what your 

11    definition of discipline is.

12                 But does Part II direct the IG -- 

13    does it direct the IG to investigate sexual 

14    assaults on inmates?

15                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Through you, 

16    Madam President.  It would authorize the 

17    Inspector General to receive complaints of sexual 

18    misconduct, including sexual assault from 

19    incarcerated individuals, yes.

20                 SENATOR STEC:   Will the sponsor 

21    continue to yield?

22                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

23    Senator yield?

24                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 


                                                               1073

 1    Senator yields.

 2                 SENATOR STEC:   Is there any part of 

 3    this public protection bill that would direct the 

 4    IG to investigate assaults on corrections 

 5    officers or staff?

 6                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Through you, 

 7    Madam President, no.  If a correction officer or 

 8    corrections staff is sexually assaulted or is the 

 9    victim of a sex crime, they have multiple avenues 

10    of recourse and ways of reporting that crime that 

11    are not currently available to incarcerated 

12    individuals because they don't have the liberty, 

13    for example, to report a crime to State Police.

14                 SENATOR STEC:   Will the sponsor 

15    continue to yield.  

16                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

17    Senator yield?

18                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

19                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

20    Senator yields. 

21                 SENATOR STEC:   And there continues 

22    to be significant limitations on the ability of 

23    DOCCS to separate dangerous inmates from the 

24    general population, correct?

25                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Through you, 


                                                               1074

 1    Madam President, I -- I disagree.

 2                 SENATOR STEC:   Well, if I could 

 3    have another question.  Will the sponsor yield?  

 4                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 5    sponsor yield?  

 6                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

 7                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 8    Senator yields.

 9                 SENATOR STEC:   So an inmate that 

10    puts a padlock in a sock and is walking down the 

11    hallway and hauls off and swings that sock and 

12    breaks somebody's eye socket -- staff member or 

13    inmate -- the appropriate behavioral control 

14    there or message to send to that inmate and other 

15    inmates would be that the most that they could 

16    possibly get, assuming that they're older than 22 

17    and younger than 55 -- because if you're younger 

18    than 55, you're still dangerous, but if you're 

19    older than 55, you're not dangerous.  And for the 

20    record, I'm older than 55, and I'm certain I'm 

21    dangerous.  

22                 (Laughter.)  

23                 SENATOR STEC:   If that incarcerated 

24    individual hauls off and hits somebody and they 

25    happen to be between the ages of 22 and 55 when 


                                                               1075

 1    they do so, smashes that person's face -- and 

 2    that person's out of work for months or maybe 

 3    never works again -- that the most that that 

 4    person can get, their punishment, would be 

 5    15 days in solitary confinement, which is special 

 6    housing, which is a cell the same size as general 

 7    population; they have more access to tablets; 

 8    they have more access to programming; they are 

 9    mandated to make sure that their needs are met 

10    before those in the general population.  So when 

11    I talk to an Honor Block inmate and they say, You 

12    know what, the message here is that people have a 

13    better deal if they're in SHU than if they're in 

14    the general population -- I'm not sure that's the 

15    message we want to send to the incarcerated.  

16                 But that the most that that person 

17    is going to get punished would be 15 days of less 

18    time with their fellow inmates but more access to 

19    tablets and programming for 15 days while that 

20    person, that employee of ours, may be out of work 

21    for months because they shattered bones in their 

22    face.  Does that seem like a good behavioral 

23    control to you?  

24                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Through you, 

25    Madam President.  I will just note that 


                                                               1076

 1    currently -- well, first of all, the HALT 

 2    Solitary Confinement Act did not modify the size 

 3    of cells.  So even if HALT were not the law, the 

 4    SHU cells would the size that they are right now 

 5    and were before HALT was enacted. 

 6                 I'll also add that the tablets that 

 7    are available to incarcerated individuals are 

 8    available to individuals in the general 

 9    population as well.  There's also now wifi 

10    available to incarcerated individuals in the 

11    general population, as it is in SHU or RRU.  

12                 What Senator Stec has described is 

13    what I would say is an assault that causes 

14    physical injury, for which someone can be given a 

15    SHU sentence or an RRU sentence.  And I think 

16    that that is an appropriate response.  

17                 I don't think that it is appropriate 

18    to put people in solitary confinement 

19    indefinitely or for a long period of time.  It's 

20    well-documented the physical, even, and mental 

21    negative impacts on individuals if they are held 

22    in solitary confinement.  

23                 And additionally, people 

24    decompensate if they are kept in solitary 

25    confinement for a long time, and that is not in 


                                                               1077

 1    the interest of safety for staff or anyone else 

 2    in a correctional facility.

 3                 SENATOR STEC:   Will the sponsor 

 4    continue to yield?  

 5                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 6    Senator yield?  

 7                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.  

 8                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 9    Senator yields.

10                 SENATOR STEC:   All right.  Again, 

11    I'm not sure that most people would agree that 

12    wifi in special housing is a terrible punishment.

13                 And again, I'll point out that if 

14    you're 55 or older or 21 or younger, you can haul 

15    off with that padlock in a sock and you don't 

16    receive any discipline for that.

17                 But contraband overdose and exposure 

18    continues to be a major problem for everyone 

19    inside our facilities.  In 2023's ELFA bill, body 

20    scanners were made optional for visitors and 

21    inmates.  Does this budget make them not 

22    optional?

23                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Through you, 

24    Madam President, I will note that visitors who 

25    come to a correctional facility, as well as 


                                                               1078

 1    incarcerated individuals, are expected to go 

 2    through a body scanner as part of security.  And 

 3    if they refuse to go through the body scanner or 

 4    if, let's say, for example, the visitor or the 

 5    incarcerated individual is a pregnant person, 

 6    right, they for health reasons should not be 

 7    subjected to these body scanners.

 8                 If they refuse or are ineligible to 

 9    go through the body scanner, they are subject to 

10    a different search technique.  They may be 

11    strip-searched.  They also may be denied entry to 

12    the facility.

13                 I will also note that contraband is 

14    a serious problem.  Incarcerated individuals and 

15    visitors are not the only people who bring in 

16    contraband.  And it is noteworthy that staff, 

17    DOCCS staff, correction officers, are not 

18    required to go through the body scanners.  And it 

19    might be worth considering that this is an 

20    opportunity for contraband to be introduced to 

21    facilities as well.

22                 SENATOR STEC:   Will the sponsor 

23    continue to yield.  

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Will the 

25    Senator yield?  


                                                               1079

 1                 SENATOR SALAZAR:   Yes.

 2                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 3    Senator yields.

 4                 SENATOR STEC:   You know, if you 

 5    want to get on a plane, good luck telling the TSA 

 6    you're not going to get scanned.  And pregnant 

 7    women get scanned in the airport.

 8                 These are contact visits.  If you 

 9    don't want to have a contact visit, then you 

10    don't need to go through the scanner.  Monticello 

11    just put out a temporary emergency directive that 

12    makes a reasonable modification:  If you don't 

13    want to get scanned, right now, today, then you 

14    have a noncontact visit.  You have Plexiglass 

15    between you.  You're still seeing the same 

16    person, but you're not sharing a bag of gummies.

17                 So there are options.  And it is a 

18    major problem.

19                 On the resolution.

20                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

21    Stec on the resolution.

22                 SENATOR STEC:   New York State is 

23    experiencing its most significant crisis in the 

24    history of the Department of Corrections right 

25    now.  It started long before more than half of 


                                                               1080

 1    the 14,000 corrections officers and sergeants 

 2    went on strike in February.  It started long 

 3    before two dozen of my constituents at Upstate 

 4    Correctional Facility in Malone were exposed to 

 5    an unknown chemical, a contraband chemical, and 

 6    more than two dozen of them went to the emergency 

 7    room in one night back in January.  It started 

 8    long before the beating death of an inmate at a 

 9    correctional facility in December.  It started 

10    with the adoption of HALT in 2021 that went into 

11    effect in 2022.  DOCCS's own data has shown the 

12    tremendous, undeniable spike in inmate-on-staff 

13    assaults and inmate-on-inmate assaults.

14                 Now, this budget, I've noticed, 

15    we've allocated $400 million and language that 

16    would mandate body cameras be worn by everybody 

17    at all times working in a correctional facility, 

18    essentially.  And that's fine.

19                 But I'll point out that last year 

20    seven inmates died of overdose.  They didn't get 

21    it legally; this is contraband.  Now, a couple of 

22    years ago we spent $13 million on body scanners.  

23    We're about to spend $400 million on cameras -- 

24    again, fine.  But a couple of years ago we spent 

25    $13 million on body scanners, had them installed 


                                                               1081

 1    in every facility.  

 2                 And I've been in eight facilities in 

 3    the last couple of weeks, and I've seen them 

 4    collecting dust.  They're optional.  Again, they 

 5    don't have dust on them at the airport.  And the 

 6    ELFA bill, when we authorized them a couple of 

 7    years ago, said that they're optional.  Why on 

 8    earth would you spend that kind of money, and 

 9    then make it optional, is beyond me.

10                 Where does this budget address the 

11    shortcomings of HALT or contraband?  It doesn't.  

12    Where is the Department of Labor on workplace 

13    safety and safe staffing ratios?  We talk about 

14    staffing ratios around here.  What about some 

15    staffing ratios and staffing hours and what's a 

16    reasonable amount of time to expect somebody to 

17    keep their head on a swivel because they're 

18    working amongst people that are convicted felons 

19    and most of them dangerous unless they're 22 or 

20    younger or 55 or older.

21                 The majority members usually climb 

22    over one another to get to a strike line to 

23    support these employees.  Where have they been 

24    for the 14,000 COs that felt so threatened by 

25    their safety -- for their own safety that they 


                                                               1082

 1    struck against the provisions -- the very painful 

 2    provisions of the Taylor Act?  Where has 

 3    Governor Hochul been?  Her response to thousands 

 4    of COs was to threaten them with arrest, strip 

 5    families of the employees of their health 

 6    insurance, and ultimately to terminate 2,000 of 

 7    our employees.

 8                 The National Guard is going to be 

 9    there forever.  They're going to be there for 

10    many, many months.

11                 It will take years to recruit and 

12    train corrections officers to replace these 2,000 

13    people that the Governor says have no place in 

14    employment anymore.

15                 And that's of course assuming that 

16    this recruitment poster of the last three weeks 

17    is going to do good for recruiting future 

18    corrections officers.

19                 This budget had an opportunity -- 

20    the only place for real movement inside for 

21    corrections facilities' safety to have happened 

22    was in this budget.  And your budget and the 

23    Governor's proposed budget are utter failures 

24    when it comes to corrections and safety in our 

25    facilities.  I'll be voting no on this resolution 


                                                               1083

 1    and I'll be voting no on any budget bill that 

 2    fails to do what needs to be done in our 

 3    correctional facilities.  

 4                 Thank you, Madam President.

 5                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

 6    you, Senator.

 7                 SENATOR GIANARIS:   Thank you, 

 8    Madam President.  

 9                 Just for purposes of time 

10    management, there are several members of the 

11    Minority Conference on the list to ask questions 

12    and speak.  We are halfway through the two-hour 

13    period, and we do intend to shut down the debate 

14    in one hour.

15                 Please continue.  Thank you.

16                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

17    Gallivan.

18                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Thank you, 

19    Madam President.  I have several questions in the 

20    health area of the budget -- of the proposal, and 

21    ask if the sponsor would yield.

22                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

23    Rivera will answer your questions.

24                 SENATOR RIVERA:   And will yield.

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   And he 


                                                               1084

 1    will yield.

 2                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   So total state 

 3    Medicaid spending this year or in the proposed 

 4    budget will be $35.7 billion.  And given all the 

 5    drivers that have led to this total, it appears 

 6    that there's a 2.0 billion dollar Medicaid 

 7    deficit for fiscal year 2026, which the Governor 

 8    has proposed to make up in a number of different 

 9    ways.  But as we project into the future, we're 

10    looking at a $1.6 billion deficit in fiscal year 

11    '27, 1.9 billion in fiscal year '28, and a 

12    $3.4 billion Medicaid deficit in 2029.

13                 This Senate one-house proposal 

14    increases Medicaid spending and eliminates the 

15    Executive's proposed Medicaid deficit offsetting 

16    measure using the $500 million in funding that 

17    the Governor was using towards the deficit from 

18    the MCO tax in spending in the various areas.  

19    And they're designated, they're lined out, and I 

20    don't intend to go to the individual items.

21                 But my question is given the 

22    increased Medicaid deficit in this upcoming year 

23    and the outyears, according to the financial 

24    plan, why reallocate this funding that the 

25    Executive meant to help close the deficit, to 


                                                               1085

 1    spend more without proposing additional Medicaid 

 2    cost-saving measures to offset the action?  

 3                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Through you, 

 4    Madam President.  So there's a lot there, but 

 5    let's start with some basics.

 6                 The -- what you're talking about is 

 7    the Medicaid cap.  One of the things that you're 

 8    talking about is the Medicaid cap, which is a 

 9    fiction that was created by the former 

10    administration to act like they had Medicaid 

11    costs and Medicaid growth under control.

12                 We never -- well, not never, but 

13    certainly over the last couple of years have not 

14    believed that the cap was something that we 

15    should have.  And you are correct, we do away 

16    with it in this budget resolution.  And I have a 

17    bill to get rid of it altogether.  But if we're 

18    going to talk about Medicaid shortfalls -- and 

19    let's remember what we're talking about.  

20    Medicaid is an insurance product that is for poor 

21    and working-class folks that have not just lived 

22    downstate, but certainly live in your districts 

23    as well.  

24                 What we should be focusing on is the 

25    attacks of the federal government and the cuts 


                                                               1086

 1    that are going to come from your friends in 

 2    Washington that are going to severely hurt 

 3    New Yorkers all across the state, not just in my 

 4    district but certainly in yours as well.

 5                 So -- but the 500 that -- the MCO 

 6    tax that you're referring is something that we 

 7    got approved last year.  We managed to get it 

 8    approved again from the prior administration.  I 

 9    doubt very much we would have gotten it approved 

10    under the current one.  And this gave us about 

11    $500 million that the Governor proposed to use 

12    for what they call Medicaid cap relief.  Since we 

13    do away with the Medicaid cap in our resolution, 

14    what we did is we actually shuffled some of that 

15    around for reinvestment in different areas that 

16    are incredibly necessary.  Which again, I will 

17    point out, benefit the entire state, not just 

18    Democratic districts. 

19                 Whether we're talking about hospital 

20    investments, safety net transportation programs, 

21    nursing homes, hospice treatments, Federally 

22    Qualified Health Centers, whether we're talking 

23    about assisted living programs, et cetera, there 

24    is a breakdown of it and we can certainly go down 

25    each one.  But what we did with the 500 is that 


                                                               1087

 1    we reshuffled it around and we put it into areas 

 2    of need, trying to shore up what will certainly 

 3    be places that are going to be severely struck by 

 4    what the federal government is going to choose to 

 5    do in the next couple of years.

 6                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Thank you.  

 7    Would the sponsor continue to yield.

 8                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 9    Senator yield? 

10                 SENATOR RIVERA:   I do.

11                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

12    Senator yields.

13                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   It should be 

14    noted that there are those that believe that 

15    there should be a cap on Medicaid spending.  But 

16    in talking about the federal government, we know 

17    that there's been discussion about this MCO tax 

18    and the potential for the federal government to 

19    rescind its approval of that.  

20                 How does -- what is the Senate's 

21    plan to make up for this money if in fact the 

22    federal government cuts this funding or cuts this 

23    approval?  

24                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Well, through you, 

25    Madam President, first things first.  The cap is 


                                                               1088

 1    not a cap on spending, the cap is a cap on 

 2    growth.  What the cap proposes, the -- not the -- 

 3    which we do away with, because we think it's -- 

 4    in this proposal, because we think it is not a 

 5    good idea.

 6                 But it was a method, it was a 

 7    calculation that was baked back in 2011, and I 

 8    think it has remain unmoved since then.  So it's 

 9    a calculation on a year-to-year basis as far as 

10    the growth of the program.  And we do not believe 

11    that that measure is valid any longer, which is 

12    the reason why we do away with it.

13                 As it refers to the MCO tax, we have 

14    been approved for at least two years.  So in this 

15    fiscal year, so '25-'26, and then '26-'27, we 

16    should receive about 1.5 million -- billion, 

17    apologies, 1.5 billion, roughly.  So 3.8 billion 

18    total over that two-year period.

19                 And as far as making up the 

20    shortfall, we will have some very tough decisions 

21    to make.  And certainly I will speak strictly for 

22    myself and not what is in the current Senate 

23    one-house, but I certainly believe that we should 

24    be taxing the wealthy at a higher rate so that we 

25    have more revenue to be able to cover some of the 


                                                               1089

 1    shortfalls that we're going to have from, again, 

 2    your friends in Washington.

 3                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Well, I don't 

 4    know that we would characterize people as 

 5    friends, but there are people that are separately 

 6    elected -- 

 7                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

 8    are you on the resolution?

 9                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Yes.

10                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Okay, 

11    Senator Gallivan on the resolution.  

12                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   I don't know 

13    that we would characterize everybody in 

14    government as friends, but we do recognize and I 

15    certainly recognize that people are elected to do 

16    a job at every level of government.  Our level of 

17    government is state government, and that's what 

18    I'm focused on, not necessarily what decisions 

19    will ultimately be made in Washington by our 

20    federal partners, regardless of who is voting for 

21    it of either party.  And of course unless it has 

22    an impact on our New York State policies, budget 

23    and our constituents.

24                 I'd like to move on to nursing homes 

25    and ask if the sponsor would continue to yield.


                                                               1090

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 2    Senator yield?

 3                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Yes.

 4                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 5    Senator yields.

 6                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   We know that 

 7    New York hasn't updated its methodology to set 

 8    the rates for nursing homes in close to 

 9    two decades, and I think that we both believe 

10    that this is something that should change.  

11                 And my question is, why does the 

12    one-house not include language that would require 

13    the Department of Health to rebase the nursing 

14    home rates?

15                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Through you, 

16    Madam President.  So there are a few things that 

17    we have that are in this proposal, whether it's 

18    some rates -- we do have some rate increases that 

19    are related to this, just one year.  So it's not 

20    a permanent thing like the rebasing would do.  

21    And we also have a capital rate add-on as it 

22    relates to capital expenses that might happen at 

23    nursing homes.  

24                 But we did not include the language 

25    for rebasing on a permanent basis.  It's ironic, 


                                                               1091

 1    because although I certainly agree that we should 

 2    actually do that, that would actually certainly 

 3    cost us more money, which I think we should do.  

 4    But we're trying to balance out based on what we 

 5    have before us.  

 6                 You will actually see that we did 

 7    not make -- some of the big additions that were 

 8    being spoken about by some of my colleagues 

 9    earlier, weirdly enough, don't happen in this 

10    part of the budget.  We actually took most of 

11    what the Governor proposed and we just reshuffled 

12    it around a little bit.  So even though we did do 

13    increases to nursing homes, we did not include 

14    language that would permanently change the rates.

15                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Thank you.  

16                 Would the sponsor continue to yield.

17                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

18    Senator yield?

19                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Yes.

20                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

21    Senator yields.

22                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   The next 

23    question has to do with the Consumer Directed 

24    Personal Assistance Program and that 

25    transition -- commonly known as CDPAP, of course.  


                                                               1092

 1    I know we've had tremendous discussion about 

 2    this.  There was significant discussion about 

 3    this at the Health Budget Hearing and many of us, 

 4    on both sides of the aisle and in both houses, 

 5    expressed great concern about this transition and 

 6    whether or not it was -- well, first, whether or 

 7    not it was appropriate.  But moving past that, 

 8    whether or not it was feasible that it would meet 

 9    this April 1, 2025, deadline for the transition 

10    to the one fiscal intermediary.  

11                 My question is, does the one-house 

12    budget address this transition at all?  And if 

13    so, why not?

14                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Through you, 

15    Madam President.  I can assure you that it is 

16    something that we are deeply concerned about as a 

17    conference, and we remain involved in all sorts 

18    of conversations about it.  We chose not to 

19    include it in this particular budget proposal.

20                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Is there 

21    separate plans outside of the budget -- will the 

22    sponsor continue to yield?  

23                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

24    sponsor yield?

25                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Yes, ma'am.


                                                               1093

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 2    Senator yields.

 3                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Are there 

 4    separate plans outside of the budget to deal with 

 5    this transition, the deadline, April 1st, if it 

 6    cannot be met?  

 7                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Through you, 

 8    Madam President, as I can assure you, there are 

 9    continued conversations even to -- I'm getting a 

10    text right now regarding this stuff.  

11                 It is something that we as a 

12    conference and certainly me as chair remain 

13    deeply involved in because I have the concerns 

14    that I expressed last year on the floor right 

15    here during this conversation that we had last 

16    year, that I've expressed both publicly and 

17    privately about this incessantly since the 

18    beginning of the year.  

19                 So I can assure you that we're 

20    deeply involved in conversations to try to 

21    resolve the issue, but we chose not to include it 

22    in this particular proposal.

23                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   My last question 

24    has to do with -- 

25                 SENATOR RIVERA:   And I will yield.


                                                               1094

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 2    sponsor will yield.

 3                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Excellent.  I 

 4    was just going to ask if he would.

 5                 The last question has to do with HMH 

 6    Part S, and that has to do with material 

 7    transactions.  And what that specifically has to 

 8    do with, of course, is independent medical 

 9    practices looking to come together.

10                 The Governor proposed significant 

11    reporting requirements for this healthcare 

12    transaction where somebody might want to merge or 

13    bring in different investors.  And the Senate 

14    one-house actually increases the amount of data 

15    that is required to be collected and reported, 

16    and then of course there's different deadlines.

17                 The concern, though, is -- well, do 

18    you have a concern that the administrative burden 

19    presented by the combination of the Governor's 

20    proposal and the amendment in the Senate 

21    one-house will be so burdensome as to prevent 

22    these transactions and these mergers from taking 

23    place, which would ultimately lead to the closing 

24    of many of the independent practices and the 

25    consolidation of the medical providers in 


                                                               1095

 1    hospitals?

 2                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Through you, 

 3    Madam President, no.

 4                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   In the proposal 

 5    it allows for the reporting requirements and a 

 6    Department of Health response.  The Department of 

 7    Health is permitted six months --

 8                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

 9    are you asking the Senator to yield?  

10                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Yeah, I was just 

11    giving him a little background information before 

12    I did, though.  

13                 (Laughter.)

14                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Would the 

15    sponsor continue to yield.

16                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Will the 

17    sponsor yield?  

18                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Only if he'll 

19    provide background information.

20                 (Laughter.)

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

22    Senator yields.  

23                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   Thank you.

24                 For this transaction or proposed 

25    transaction after all this information is 


                                                               1096

 1    submitted, the Department of Health has 180 days 

 2    to review this information and make a decision, 

 3    of course, delaying the process even further and 

 4    putting these independent practices in further 

 5    jeopardy.

 6                 If the Department of Health, when 

 7    they do their review, and at the end of six 

 8    months has additional questions and they send 

 9    them back out there to the people involved in the 

10    transaction, could this potentially delay this 

11    another six months?

12                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Through you, 

13    Madam President.  The language that we included 

14    in this proposal does not lay out a timeline, so 

15    I would not be able to answer the question about 

16    whether or not it would add six months or not.  

17    Hopefully it would not.

18                 SENATOR GALLIVAN:   On that 

19    particular portion of the bill, Madam President, 

20    I have great concern -- you know, we look across 

21    the state at our healthcare providers and we know 

22    that we struggle to ensure that we have enough 

23    healthcare providers that provide quality 

24    healthcare to all.  And the imposition of this 

25    particular provision that would put impediments 


                                                               1097

 1    in the way of independent providers being able to 

 2    continue as independent providers, I think can 

 3    lead to an even greater share -- an even greater 

 4    number of problems as it relates to the 

 5    availability of providers that are out there and 

 6    negatively impact our healthcare system.

 7                 So of course I too, like Senator 

 8    Mattera, want to be happy.  I'm not -- I don't 

 9    know that this makes me happy or unhappy, but I 

10    think it's problematic.  I'll be voting no as 

11    well.  

12                 Thank you, Madam President, and 

13    thanks to Senator Rivera for his responses.

14                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

15    you, Senator.

16                 Senator Murray.

17                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you, 

18    Madam President.  I have a few questions in 

19    different parts, so I'd like to start with public 

20    protection discovery, Part PPGG, Part B.

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

22    Bailey will respond.  

23                 Senator Bailey, do you yield?  

24                 SENATOR BAILEY:   Certainly.

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 


                                                               1098

 1    Senator yields.

 2                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you, Senator 

 3    Bailey.  

 4                 The first -- the Governor included a 

 5    proposal that made several changes to the 

 6    discovery reform laws in an effort to make the 

 7    laws fairer for prosecutors and victims.  Not all 

 8    of the DAs loved the changes, but thought it was 

 9    at least a start.  And these would prevent cases 

10    from getting dismissed for minor errors in 

11    discovery disclosures.  

12                 Does this resolution include that 

13    proposal?

14                 SENATOR BAILEY:   Through you, 

15    Madam President, the Senate Majority thought that 

16    while the Governor's proposal was the beginning 

17    of a conversation, we omitted it and put language 

18    in there that shows that we are committed to the 

19    conversation that says that as legislators we are 

20    responsible enough to consider possible changes 

21    and that the dialogue will continue.

22                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Would the sponsor 

23    continue to yield.

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

25    Senator yield?


                                                               1099

 1                 SENATOR BAILEY:   I do.

 2                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 3    Senator yields.

 4                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you, 

 5    Senator.  

 6                 So is there anything in this 

 7    proposal that would in fact change the 

 8    discovery laws?

 9                 SENATOR BAILEY:   Through you, 

10    Madam President, there is no statutory language 

11    that would specifically change anything in the 

12    discovery laws.

13                 However, this is the one-house and I 

14    want to remind everybody that this is on the 

15    one-house and this is not changing the law -- 

16    nothing in this is changing the law, and that we 

17    are committed to an ongoing conversation 

18    regarding the discovery laws.

19                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Will the sponsor 

20    continue to yield, Madam President.

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Will the 

22    Senator yield?

23                 SENATOR BAILEY:   I certainly do.

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

25    Senator yields.


                                                               1100

 1                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you.

 2                 And now a question on the 

 3    Challenging Wrongful Convictions Act.  That act 

 4    passed both houses and was vetoed by the Governor 

 5    in 2023 because as she stated, and this is her 

 6    quote:  "A sweeping expansion of eligibility for 

 7    postconviction relief and relaxation or outright 

 8    elimination of certain procedural rules would 

 9    upend the judicial system and create an 

10    unjustifiable risk of flooding the courts with 

11    frivolous claims."

12                 Does the version included in the 

13    one-house budget have any changes from the 2023 

14    version that was vetoed by the Governor?

15                 SENATOR BAILEY:   Through you, 

16    Madam President, there were no changes to the 

17    that bill.

18                 However, in the actual text of the 

19    bill that Senator Murray referenced, there is a 

20    permissible standard that no court has to act 

21    upon with the statutory language.  It is 

22    permissible.  So there is no mandate on there.  

23    So we would -- I would respectfully point that 

24    out.

25                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Would the sponsor 


                                                               1101

 1    continue to yield, Madam President.

 2                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 3    Senator yield?

 4                 SENATOR BAILEY:   I do.

 5                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 6    Senator yields.

 7                 SENATOR MURRAY:   So just for 

 8    clarification, though, was this proposal that's 

 9    included here, was it changed at all from the 

10    2023 proposal that was vetoed?  

11                 SENATOR BAILEY:   Through you, 

12    Madam President, the bill that makes it 

13    permissible and not required by the courts was 

14    not changed.

15                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Okay, got it, 

16    thank you.  

17                 Would the sponsor continue to yield?  

18                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

19    Senator yield?

20                 SENATOR BAILEY:   I yield.

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

22    Senator yields.

23                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Does this 

24    resolution -- and I'm kind of switching gears 

25    here, but I want to talk about law enforcement 


                                                               1102

 1    and hiring and recruiting and the shortages that 

 2    we have, including our corrections officers.  

 3                 Does this proposal have any 

 4    incentives or anything to help law enforcement 

 5    with hiring and retention?

 6                 SENATOR BAILEY:   Through you, 

 7    Madam President.  In personal conversations that 

 8    I've had with sergeants and detectives and other 

 9    members of law enforcement, they've had 

10    conversations about a piece of legislation that 

11    is in this bill that is not necessarily public 

12    protection related.  But they indicate that it 

13    would assist them in the retention of certain 

14    members who hit a certain point -- I think it's 

15    past 20 years -- in their service.

16                 So direct conversations with 

17    members, high-ranking members of those unions 

18    have indicated to me specifically and directly 

19    that that would help with some retention, one of 

20    the bills in there.

21                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you, 

22    Madam President.  Will the sponsor continue to 

23    yield?  

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

25    Senator yield?


                                                               1103

 1                 SENATOR BAILEY:   Through you, 

 2    Madam President, I've been, you know, informed as 

 3    to the prior question by the Incredible Avengers 

 4    assembled behind me -- 

 5                 (Laughter.)

 6                 SENATOR BAILEY:   -- that there is a 

 7    Part C that does remove residency requirements 

 8    for I believe State Troopers as well as 

 9    correction officers, which would expand the 

10    options for possible officers.  I just wanted to 

11    make sure we clarified that, that we are doing 

12    more to make sure for our friends in 

13    law enforcement that we can expand the pool.  

14                 But I do yield, Madam President.

15                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

16    Senator yields.

17                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you, 

18    Madam President.  

19                 So I believe the section you were 

20    talking about in regards to that was for NYPD, 

21    and it was regarding Tier 3 and changing the 

22    retirement -- the 20-year retirement plan.  Which 

23    does affect, in fact, the NYPD but not 

24    necessarily those outside of New York City.

25                 So I ask, is there anything in this 


                                                               1104

 1    resolution to address Tier 6?

 2                 SENATOR BAILEY:   Through you, 

 3    Madam President, no.  

 4                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you, 

 5    Madam President.  

 6                 I'd like to switch gears now -- 

 7    thank you, Senator Bailey.

 8                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

 9    you, Senator.

10                 SENATOR MURRAY:   I'd like to switch 

11    gears now, and I don't have the actual section in 

12    front of me, but it's regarding OTDA -- which 

13    actually might be you, Madam President, now that 

14    I think about it.

15                 (Laughter.)

16                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

17    Krueger will answer your questions.

18                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Okay, very good. 

19                 Would the Senator yield?  

20                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I'll give it my 

21    best.

22                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

23    Senator yields.

24                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Okay.  So I was 

25    looking at the budget; I believe that we've 


                                                               1105

 1    allocated in this resolution $8.1 billion for the 

 2    Office of Temporary Disability Assistance.  Part 

 3    of that regards SNAP benefits.  There's been an 

 4    ongoing problem with SNAP benefits being stolen 

 5    from the EBT cards because of the strips, and 

 6    we're doing the swiping instead of the chip 

 7    technology.

 8                 Is there any money allocated -- I've 

 9    had many conversations with the commissioner.  

10    She says the cost would be 40 million to make the 

11    switch, thereabout.  However, we pick up only 

12    half of that.  Is there any money allocated in 

13    here to switch to chip technology regarding the 

14    SNAP benefits cards?  

15                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   So the Governor's 

16    Executive Budget does have money to help with the 

17    transition to the chip cards on EBT.  We did not 

18    amend that section or -- so we accepted the 

19    Governor's proposal.

20                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Would the sponsor 

21    continue to yield.

22                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

23    Senator yield?

24                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 


                                                               1106

 1    Senator yields.

 2                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Is there a time 

 3    frame for that, and do you have an amount that 

 4    was allocated for that?  Is it basically whatever 

 5    is needed, or was there a specific amount 

 6    allocated?

 7                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   So I know we've 

 8    also had conversations with the commissioner of 

 9    OTDA about this, because we share your concern 

10    that New York is seemingly becoming a center of 

11    criminal activity stealing people's SNAP 

12    benefits.  And the federal government was helping 

13    reimburse for those for a while, but has stopped.  

14    So it's really crucial that we address this.

15                 There seem to be some delays in 

16    trying to do the contracting for this because not 

17    that many states have moved forward yet, and 

18    those that have each run into their own issues, 

19    including I think there's only one company now 

20    that's bidding -- I may be wrong.  When you only 

21    have one company out there bidding for a 

22    contract, sometimes they try to blow up their 

23    profit margin beyond what we think is 

24    appropriate.  So I think there's been some 

25    struggle to try to get this contract let at an 


                                                               1107

 1    appropriate amount of money.  

 2                 But I will assure you that we urge 

 3    the Governor and her agencies to get this done as 

 4    quickly as possible because it's a lose/lose.  

 5    The people who need these benefits aren't getting 

 6    them, which also means the stores that they go 

 7    food shopping in aren't getting the revenue and 

 8    the jobs that they should be getting.  

 9                 And it's a national issue, as I 

10    think you and I both know, and I wish the federal 

11    government was doing more to move this more 

12    quickly, but unfortunately I don't feel like they 

13    are right now.

14                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you, 

15    Madam President.  

16                 I'd like to switch gears now and 

17    finally go to -- and again, I apologize, I'd like 

18    to address the MTA.  So Transportation, whatever 

19    portion that would be.  Would that -- there you 

20    go, okay.  

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

22    do you yield?

23                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Would the Senator 

24    yield?  

25                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I will.


                                                               1108

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 2    Senator yields.

 3                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you.  

 4                 Can you give us the current status 

 5    of the MTA's 2025 to 2029 capital program?  What 

 6    is in this resolution regarding the capital 

 7    program?  

 8                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

 9    Madam President.  We made a commitment in our 

10    resolution that we are going to work with the 

11    Governor and the Assembly to come up with the 

12    funding to meet the full MTA capital plan needs 

13    for the '25-'29 capital plan.  But we didn't put 

14    a specific dollar on it, nor the revenue streams, 

15    because those are still in discussion between the 

16    MTA, the Governor's office, and both houses.

17                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you.  

18                 Will the sponsor continue to yield?  

19                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

20    Senator yield?  

21                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, just 

22    to clarify also, we did accept the Governor's 

23    ongoing $3 billion commitment which has pretty 

24    much been an annual arrangement.  So we didn't 

25    take -- we neither increased or decreased that 


                                                               1109

 1    amount.

 2                 Sorry.  Now, yes, of course I yield.

 3                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 4    Senator yields.

 5                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you very 

 6    much.  

 7                 I'd like to address the -- first the 

 8    expansion of the -- Fair Fares program.  We're 

 9    expanding that program.  Do you have a dollar 

10    amount of how much that expansion will cost?  

11                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   We put in 

12    $40 million to assist with the Fair Fares 

13    program, but the rest of the cost, which would be 

14    significantly more, would be the obligation of 

15    the City of New York.

16                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Will the sponsor 

17    continue to yield.  

18                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

19    Senator yield?  

20                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

22    Senator yields.  

23                 SENATOR MURRAY:   So in regards to 

24    the Fair Fares program -- and we're putting in 

25    $40 million.  That means all taxpayers in 


                                                               1110

 1    New York are paying that.  But even though the 

 2    expansion of that program applies to the LIRR and 

 3    the Metro-North, a resident of Nassau or Suffolk 

 4    County or Westchester County, would they be able 

 5    to take advantage of this?

 6                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   No, not unless 

 7    those counties came forward and asked to 

 8    participate in some kind of program where they 

 9    also pick up the majority of the costs.

10                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Would the sponsor 

11    continue to yield.  

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

13    Senator yield?

14                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

15                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

16    Senator yields.

17                 SENATOR MURRAY:   So this also 

18    expands -- this resolution calls for the 

19    expansion of the city's Fare-Free Bus Pilot 

20    Program with an additional 15 new fare-free 

21    routes.  How much would that cost?

22                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   An estimated 

23    $45 million.

24                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Forty-five.  Okay, 

25    very good.  


                                                               1111

 1                 Madam President, I'd like to go on 

 2    the bill, please.  Or on the resolution.

 3                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

 4    Murray on the resolution.

 5                 SENATOR MURRAY:   Thank you, 

 6    Senator Krueger.  

 7                 A lot to unpack here, so I'll go 

 8    quickly; I know there are others.

 9                 Let's start with the OTDA and the 

10    SNAP benefits.  So while that answer was nice, in 

11    doing some further digging into this, we've lost 

12    $40 million since 2002 through stolen benefits.  

13                 And while, yes, the federal 

14    government said we're not going to start 

15    replenishing that, it's because we have the 

16    solution.  The federal government said, We're not 

17    going to continue to throw good money after bad 

18    because we have the solution to fix the problem 

19    so we won't lose that funding.  And yet we're not 

20    acting on it.  

21                 As for the vendor to change to the 

22    chip technology, we had the vendor.  We changed 

23    vendors.  How do I know this?  Because the 

24    New York State Department of Labor uses the chip 

25    technology for their unemployment benefits 


                                                               1112

 1    already, and they go through Conduent.  Conduent 

 2    is the vendor.  OTDA had Conduent as their vendor 

 3    and changed.  

 4                 The Department of Labor's been using 

 5    this technology for almost two years.  But yet we 

 6    continue to allow New Yorkers who need these 

 7    benefits to go hungry,  and they will continue to 

 8    go hungry because we're not acting quickly 

 9    enough.  And the money hasn't been there.  We 

10    need to do better.

11                 Finally, with the MTA.  I mean, year 

12    after year after year they're coming asking for 

13    more money.  We lost nearly $800 million last 

14    year to toll and fare evasion, and the answer of 

15    the Senate Majority now is let's give away more 

16    free rides.  Great.  I'm sure the rest of the 

17    taxpayers love footing the bill.  

18                 By the way, the ones that are 

19    abiding by the law and are paying their fares, 

20    they got hit with a fare increase, just so we 

21    know.

22                 And then, finally, the capital plan.  

23    Again, year after year we need more money, more 

24    money.  I've heard the number thrown out 

25    33 billion for the five-year capital plan that we 


                                                               1113

 1    still need.  And that is, Well, congestion 

 2    pricing would cover that.  Well, I think that's 

 3    probably going to be gone.

 4                 I don't understand how we're passing 

 5    a budget resolution that leaves that gaping hole 

 6    with no explanation of how we're going to fill 

 7    it.  I just want to read the statement that's in 

 8    here.  This is what the Senator was referring to.  

 9    This is the statement in this resolution 

10    addressing that.  

11                 "The Senate recognizes the 

12    importance of a fully funded MTA capital program 

13    to the tristate region and, correspondingly, to 

14    the national economy, and fully supports 

15    identifying and mobilizing financial resources to 

16    properly fund the 2025-2029 MTA Capital Plan in 

17    partnership with the Metropolitan Transportation 

18    Authority, City of New York" -- hold on -- "the 

19    New York State Assembly, and the Governor of the 

20    State of New York.  The Senate also recognizes 

21    the importance of the MTA using its resources 

22    efficiently and transparently, so that it can 

23    instill confidence in the taxpayers and riders 

24    who rely on the system."

25                 That's your budget proposal.  I 


                                                               1114

 1    don't hear a dollar sign.  I don't hear any plan 

 2    for how we're going to get there.  I guess I'll 

 3    just tell my mortgage lender that I'll get a plan 

 4    and figure out how to pay my mortgage.  

 5                 This isn't a full budget proposal if 

 6    we haven't answered these questions.  So for that 

 7    reason and many, I'll be voting no.

 8                 Thank you, Madam President.

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

10    you, Senator.

11                 Senator Borrello.  

12                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Thank you, 

13    Madam President.  

14                 I have questions on Rev Part WW, 

15    specifically with the Unemployment Insurance 

16    Benefit Fund.

17                 Madam President, will the sponsor 

18    yield for a question.

19                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

20    Krueger, do you yield?  

21                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes, I do.

22                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

23    Senator yields.

24                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Oh, so you're 

25    handling labor as well now, I see.  


                                                               1115

 1                 (Laughter.)

 2                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   So you are 

 3    multitasking today.  Yes, thank you.  

 4                 Well, for years now we've known that 

 5    there is a giant hole in our Unemployment 

 6    Insurance Fund.  It started at $11 billion; it's 

 7    now down to about 6.5 billion entirely paid by 

 8    the businesses, small businesses like myself, for 

 9    largely fraud that was committed during the 

10    pandemic unemployment insurance.

11                 I know you have a questioning look 

12    on your face because the Department of Labor will 

13    not tell us how much fraud we experienced.  

14    However, the Comptroller estimated it at 

15    $11 billion.  So the amount of the whole 

16    unemployment insurance deficit equals the amount 

17    of fraud that the Comptroller thinks that we 

18    experienced here during that.

19                 So most every other state except for 

20    New York took the pandemic relief money from the 

21    federal government and filled that hole so that 

22    their businesses wouldn't be burdened with these 

23    additional costs.  But New York didn't dedicate a 

24    dime to it, not one thin dime.  

25                 So as a result, every business right 


                                                               1116

 1    now in New York State is paying the top 

 2    unemployment insurance rates and a fine assessed 

 3    every quarter, that to the tune of about $215 per 

 4    employee.  So billions of dollars that are 

 5    actually being obviously passed along to the 

 6    consumers here in New York.

 7                 Now, in this bill you've added 

 8    $6 billion -- billion with a B -- to appropriate 

 9    the Unemployment Insurance Benefit Fund, to 

10    subsidize that deficit.  Can you please tell me 

11    how that money is going to be distributed?  Or is 

12    it just going to go right into the fund?  

13                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

14    Madam President.  No, this is specifically to go 

15    to small businesses, 50 employees or less, to pay 

16    the cost difference between their pre-COVID UIB 

17    costs and their post-COVID UIB costs.  Which have 

18    gone up, I agree with my colleague.  And so this 

19    is specifically to address that issue for the 

20    small businesses in New York State.  

21                 I do have to take objection to my 

22    colleague's description that our costs grew so 

23    much because of fraud.  I think the national data 

24    shows that our cost of unemployment skyrocketed 

25    because so many businesses did lay off people 


                                                               1117

 1    during the COVID pandemic.  Hence, we drew down 

 2    more unemployment benefits for people -- and 

 3    thank goodness we did at the time.  

 4                 And yes, the state has had a 

 5    significant obligation to pay back the federal 

 6    government.  I'm advised that I think at the rate 

 7    it's getting paid back now, we'll be completed 

 8    in -- three years or two years?  '27.  In 2027.  

 9    So in two fiscal years, that will have been 

10    completed.  

11                 We could also have a further 

12    discussion of maybe we didn't have enough money 

13    in our reserve fund for UIB because we hadn't 

14    been increasing the UIB rates on our businesses 

15    for many years, while other states had been.  But 

16    that's a discussion perhaps either for history to 

17    review or for us to discuss in the future about 

18    making our UIB trust system more ready to handle 

19    downturns.  

20                 Let's hope we never have a pandemic 

21    like that again, although I worry -- I suspect my 

22    colleague also worries about that.

23                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Madam President, 

24    will the sponsor continue to yield.  

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Will the 


                                                               1118

 1    Senator yield?

 2                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

 3                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 4    Senator yields.  

 5                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Yes, we both 

 6    agree that there -- we fear something like that 

 7    ever happening again, and let's hope it doesn't 

 8    happen.  

 9                 The real issue wasn't so much that 

10    New Yorkers -- in droves, they were basically 

11    forced to be laid off.  The businesses didn't 

12    choose to.  I can tell you that our experience in 

13    our businesses was we had a pile of unemployment 

14    claims piling up on our desk while we were 

15    receiving requests for unemployment for people 

16    that could have worked.  So the problem was a lot 

17    of those people didn't actually work for us, 

18    because they were -- there was fraud in the 

19    system, a tremendous amount of fraud, because we 

20    had a software program for unemployment -- 

21                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

22    are you on the resolution?

23                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   I'll ask a 

24    question based on this.  But will the sponsor 

25    yield?  


                                                               1119

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

 2    sponsor yield?

 3                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

 4                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 5    sponsor yields.

 6                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   So you mentioned 

 7    changing the rules so that it's not just filling 

 8    the gap, which is what we should do, but we're 

 9    going to have a tax credit for employers with 50 

10    or less people.  Now, is that people or is that 

11    FTEs?  In business we measure employment by FTEs, 

12    which is a full-time equivalent.  

13                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   So the definition 

14    references a worker earning at least $13,000 a 

15    year.  And so I don't think we tried to go into 

16    FTE in the definition because there can be so 

17    many different categories of people who work.  

18                 So I can try to get better 

19    clarification for you, but that's the best I can 

20    offer right now.  Yes.

21                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   All right.  

22    Madam President, will the sponsor continue to 

23    yield.  

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

25    Senator yield?  


                                                               1120

 1                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I do.

 2                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 3    Senator yields.

 4                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   So every 

 5    business in New York State that has an employment 

 6    that pays, you know, unemployment insurance 

 7    benefits -- in other words, anybody that's not a 

 8    sole proprietor is paying for this.  This is not 

 9    government money.  This is paid for by employees 

10    and employers, the unemployment insurance that 

11    they pay.  And we have funds that were drained 

12    because of the -- more money paid out than was 

13    going into the system, as you referenced earlier.  

14                 So why would we limit this to just 

15    this number of people?  We owe about 6.5 billion 

16    right now.  This is a $6 billion appropriation.  

17    So you could virtually cover it all.  With an 

18    extra near half a billion dollars, you could get 

19    rid of it entirely.  Why would we limit this to 

20    just certain businesses?  

21                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

22    Madam President, we project this is $490 million 

23    a year for two years, so close to a billion of 

24    the cost.  And, you know, it would be an 

25    interesting discussion that my colleagues would 


                                                               1121

 1    want to find 6 billion to pay, which probably 

 2    would require even further tax increases, which I 

 3    suspect my colleagues would choose to vote no on, 

 4    but I can't assume that.

 5                 So we actually think we are making a 

 6    reasonable expansion beyond the Governor to try 

 7    to address the small businesses who we know often 

 8    carry the biggest weights on their shoulders when 

 9    something changes in the economy.  

10                 And so we are fairly confident that 

11    the larger businesses in this state will continue 

12    to be able to make the payments as they have been 

13    doing since the end of pandemic.  And again, we 

14    estimate that it's only two more years till we 

15    resolve the post-pandemic obligations to the 

16    federal government.

17                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Madam President, 

18    will the sponsor continue to yield.  

19                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

20    Senator yield?  

21                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

22                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

23    Senator yields.

24                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   I will have to 

25    respectfully challenge that two-year payoff.  The 


                                                               1122

 1    NFIB, the Business Council and others have 

 2    assumed this would be a 10-year payback, of which 

 3    we are about four years into it.  So to 

 4    accelerate to two years I think would be 

 5    unrealistic. 

 6                 So we did have the opportunity -- 

 7    and I'm going to get to a question if the sponsor 

 8    would continue to yield.

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Will the 

10    sponsor yield?

11                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I do.

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

13    Senator yields.

14                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Why didn't we 

15    spend the federal money like every other state 

16    did to help fill that gap the first time around?  

17    Because you said we should raise taxes to fill 

18    this gap.  But we had the money in our hands, and 

19    we spent it on other things.  In fact, we spent 

20    it on creating new programs and new, you know, 

21    bureaucratic jobs that we now have to continue to 

22    pay for with that federal money.  

23                 So why didn't we take the money that 

24    we were given that every other state, almost, 

25    used to fill that unemployment insurance gap?  


                                                               1123

 1    Why didn't we do it then?

 2                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

 3    Madam President.  Budgets are a set of 

 4    priorities, and you make your decision about what 

 5    you're prioritizing.  I know that post-pandemic 

 6    California and New York found themselves with the 

 7    biggest gaps in having to have had borrowing.  So 

 8    we did have a larger obligation to meet during 

 9    the pandemic than most states, leaving us in this 

10    situation.

11                 I'm not sure what it means that we 

12    instead used the money for more bureaucrats.  So 

13    I guess I would need more clarification on that.  

14    But every year we come here and we do our best to 

15    figure out what revenue we have, what we should 

16    be using it for, whether we need to raise more, 

17    and how we prioritize our issues for the people 

18    of New York State.  

19                 And my colleague and I may in fact 

20    disagree on how money was prioritized to not 

21    factor in a bigger or quicker solution for 

22    businesses on their UIB obligations.

23                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Madam President, 

24    on the bill. 

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 


                                                               1124

 1    Borrello on the resolution.

 2                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Thank you, 

 3    Senator Krueger.

 4                 I think that the issue here is that 

 5    the Assembly actually proposed paying off the 

 6    debt entirely, what's left.  Because keep in mind 

 7    that nearly half of it's already been paid on the 

 8    backs of every worker and business in New York 

 9    State.  

10                 But this is more of a kind of a -- I 

11    guess more for show.  Because when you limit it 

12    to 50 people or less -- which is great, those are 

13    small businesses -- you're also excluding most 

14    businesses, all of which paid that UI debt.  

15                 So I have a -- I take issue with 

16    that.  The Assembly I think has a better 

17    solution, and it's one that I think is long 

18    overdue in New York State.  

19                 So then I'm going to switch gears 

20    now and would like to talk about TED Part EEE, 

21    the HEAT Act.

22                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   What are we on 

23    now?  

24                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   It's the HEAT 

25    Act.  I'm sure you're familiar with it.


                                                               1125

 1                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I'll give it a 

 2    shot.  I was just checking if it was anybody 

 3    else's territory.

 4                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Will the sponsor 

 5    yield for a question?  

 6                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

 7    do you yield?  

 8                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I do.

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

10    Senator yields.

11                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   We've referenced 

12    in a previous debate that we know that our energy 

13    costs are up here in New York State.  No one 

14    disputes that.  But one of the key components of 

15    this is that we're going to somehow limit what we 

16    know is going to be an increase in energy costs 

17    with a 6 percent cap.  How is that 6 percent cap 

18    being funded?  

19                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

20    Serrano.

21                 SENATOR SERRANO:   Sorry to 

22    interrupt.  I just wanted to remind members to be 

23    mindful of time as we have about 15 minutes left 

24    in this debate.

25                 Thank you.


                                                               1126

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

 2    you, Senator.  

 3                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Through you, 

 4    Madam President.  I'll try to get the answers out 

 5    faster.

 6                 In this budget we have allocated 

 7    200 million to help pay for those costs to make 

 8    sure we can hit the 6 percent cap.  And the 

 9    Assembly did as well.

10                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Madam President, 

11    will the sponsor continue to yield?  

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

13    do you yield?  

14                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

15                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

16    Senator yields.

17                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   So that's the 

18    Energy Affordability Program.  But we're 

19    estimating this gap to be more like $3 billion.  

20    So that's, what, 12, 15 percent of what the cost 

21    is going to be?  So how are we going to get the 

22    rest of it?  Is this going to be ratepayers?  

23                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I am not aware of 

24    any math that shows that number.  So I'd be happy 

25    to talk to my colleague, perhaps not on the floor 


                                                               1127

 1    today, about that projection of the cost.  

 2                 But I have been working on this bill 

 3    and moving it through houses for several years, 

 4    and I don't ever remember seeing a number like 

 5    that.

 6                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Madam President, 

 7    will the sponsor continue to yield.  

 8                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

 9    do you yield?  

10                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I do.

11                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

12    Senator yields.

13                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Just a quick 

14    answer to your question:  This is what utility 

15    companies are expecting.  And we can have that 

16    discussion later.  

17                 But I want to move on to the actual 

18    policy that we're going to allow the PSC to 

19    essentially have the authority to discontinue 

20    service.

21                 Why does -- if this is really -- if 

22    people are still going to have the option of 

23    being able to keep natural gas, then why does the 

24    PSC need the ultimate authority to disconnect 

25    customers?


                                                               1128

 1                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   The PSC already 

 2    has authority to make decisions about whether new 

 3    pipes can be put in the ground or not.  That's 

 4    existing law.  What we are saying within this law 

 5    is the PSC can actually, through a process in 

 6    community participation, evaluate whether that 

 7    should be continued automatically for any new 

 8    buildings, since we have now changed the law to 

 9    require new buildings to be operated without gas 

10    unless there is a necessity to, in which case 

11    they can continue to waiver to allow the pipes to 

12    be put in.  

13                 So I think -- maybe you weren't here 

14    when I was discussing it with Senator Mattera.  I 

15    think we went through this step-by-step.  

16                 So yes, if you still need this and 

17    you can show that you can, PSC can say fine.  

18    Right now PSC can also say no to you.  And there 

19    will be a formal process by which you 

20    participate, PSC with community, to evaluate the 

21    options available.  And last but not least, gas 

22    will not be turned off anywhere unless there is 

23    another option available.

24                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Madam President, 

25    will the sponsor continue to yield.


                                                               1129

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 2    Senator yields?

 3                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Yes.

 4                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 5    Senator yields.  

 6                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   But this is -- 

 7    you're calling this a transition away from gas.  

 8    So how can we say it's really a transition if 

 9    people will still be able to use it?  And why 

10    would we allow the PSC to discontinue service 

11    that already exists?

12                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Again, if there's 

13    an alternative that is cheaper and safer and less 

14    polluting, I'm a little confused why somebody 

15    wouldn't want that option.  Because in fact what 

16    we know is the alternative options even available 

17    today -- and more will be coming -- actually are 

18    cheaper per kilowatt hour, are cleaner, and are 

19    actually in people's best interests based on 

20    those who have already gone through transition 

21    who come to our hearings and testify that it's 

22    actually working terrifically for them.  

23                 So we are supporting transition -- 

24    not specifically alone in this bill, but we 

25    passed an entire package of energy and 


                                                               1130

 1    environmental transition obligations through the 

 2    CLCPA.  Then we spent two years with experts 

 3    advising us on exactly the steps we ought to 

 4    take.  And we built into all of this a 

 5    requirement for reliability so that we're not 

 6    leaving anybody hanging out there.  

 7                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   On the bill, 

 8    Madam President.  

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

10    Borrello on the resolution.

11                 SENATOR BORRELLO:   Thank you, 

12    Senator Krueger.

13                 Just quickly, I'm going to say that 

14    this is not about giving choice to customers.  

15    This is about discontinuing the most reliable, 

16    most affordable form of energy we have -- natural 

17    gas.

18                 Also, these alternatives are not 

19    cheaper.  I mean, no one actually believes that 

20    except for the folks that have voted yes on the 

21    CLCPA.  So the reality is we're already seeing 

22    electric costs go up 40 percent -- 40 percent.  

23    And we're seeing renewable energy projects being 

24    canceled in the droves because they can't afford 

25    to build the projects unless they get gobs and 


                                                               1131

 1    gobs more, billions upon billions more of 

 2    taxpayer dollars to do so.

 3                 So I'm not sure where the affordable 

 4    part's coming from, because we can't afford to 

 5    build the things now that were already proposed.  

 6                 So this is a disaster, as my 

 7    colleague has mentioned before, but it's a 

 8    disaster that's going to be paid for by the 

 9    people of New York State.  And with that, I will 

10    be voting no on this.

11                 Thank you.  

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

13    you, Senator.

14                 Senator Rhoads.

15                 SENATOR RHOADS:   Thank you, 

16    Madam President.  

17                 In the absence of Senator Rivera, 

18    would Senator Krueger please rise to answer a few 

19    questions?  On health.

20                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   We can wait until 

21    he returns.

22                 SENATOR RHOADS:   Okay.  May not 

23    have that kind of time.

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

25    do you yield?


                                                               1132

 1                 SENATOR RIVERA:   (Rapidly entering 

 2    chamber.)  I got this.

 3                 (Laughter.)

 4                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 5    Senator will yield.

 6                 SENATOR RHOADS:   Thank you.  

 7                 With respect to Part EE in the 

 8    Governor's budget, I actually found something 

 9    which I never thought I'd find in the Governor's 

10    executive proposal, which is something that 

11    resembled a good idea.

12                 SENATOR RIVERA:   By the way, I 

13    yield.  

14                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   I did, 

15    yes.

16                 SENATOR RIVERA:   The involuntary 

17    commitment and assisted outpatient treatment, 

18    right?  The Senate one-house bill rejects the 

19    Executive proposal to allow intervention when 

20    individuals are at a substantial risk of harm due 

21    to their inability to meet basic needs of food, 

22    shelter or medical care.  It would improve care 

23    for individuals at risk of self-neglect, it would 

24    prevent crises by allowing people to get 

25    treatment as opposed to being released back out 


                                                               1133

 1    onto the streets, which would assist with our 

 2    homeless population.  It included the inability 

 3    to meet --

 4                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator?

 5                 SENATOR RIVERA:   Madam Chair, 

 6    through you.  In the sake of limited time, that I 

 7    will go back to my bagel, since Senator Brouk 

 8    will actually answer questions regarding this.

 9                 SENATOR RHOADS:   Okay.  

10                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

11    Brouk?

12                 SENATOR BROUK:   Hi.

13                 SENATOR RHOADS:   Senator Brouk, 

14    will you yield to a question?

15                 SENATOR BROUK:   I will.  I will 

16    yield.

17                 SENATOR RHOADS:   Did you hear the 

18    first part of my question?

19                 SENATOR BROUK:   I did.  We can pick 

20    up where you left off.

21                 SENATOR RHOADS:   It would have 

22    included eligibility for court-ordered outpatient 

23    treatment, and it also would have ensured 

24    vulnerable individuals who might fall through the 

25    cracks due to inability to meet basic needs were 


                                                               1134

 1    not left without necessary healthcare.  

 2                 The Senate, in its one-house, put 

 3    that the Senate remains committed to 

 4    collaborating with the Executive and the Assembly 

 5    to develop a balanced solution that helps people 

 6    experiencing mental health challenges access the 

 7    care that they need.  But what other than 

 8    sunshine, rainbows and good intentions does the 

 9    Majority intend to actually propose in response 

10    to the Governor's proposal?

11                 SENATOR BROUK:   Through you, 

12    Madam President.  I'd like to start with one 

13    fact, that sunshine is a major part of 

14    maintaining mental wellness and mental health, so 

15    we would add that if we could.

16                 On a more serious note, though, you 

17    know, I think this Senate body in particular has 

18    really put forward a number of proposals and 

19    investments over the last four years when it 

20    comes to fighting our mental health crisis.  This 

21    is the body that started with the first 

22    cost-of-living adjustment for our mental health 

23    workforce in over 10 years.  There has not been a 

24    legislative session that has passed without this 

25    body taking major steps in addressing the mental 


                                                               1135

 1    health crisis.

 2                 And if one were to look at our 

 3    one-house budget, what they will see is that we 

 4    have once again really taken major steps forward 

 5    in not just addressing the mental health crisis 

 6    but in ensuring that we are bringing in the 

 7    voices of impacted individuals, of mental health 

 8    providers, of those who are in the field seeing 

 9    this crisis on the ground.  

10                 Some of the things that we've done 

11    are we have increased our investments in peer 

12    services.  Every study shows that when it comes 

13    to really bridging the gap when individuals can't 

14    find the care they need or are not in a position 

15    to seek that care, having peers creating 

16    relationships with individuals with severe mental 

17    illness can be a kind of stopgap to get them to 

18    bridge over to that care.  So we've increased 

19    investment in those peer services.  

20                 We've also expanded our ability to 

21    get voluntary services to those who need them by 

22    including the entire bill text of Daniel's Law in 

23    this one-house budget.  That is one way that we 

24    are able to ensure that those who are in mental 

25    health crisis are not escalating that crisis, but 


                                                               1136

 1    rather we are sending mental health 

 2    professionals -- peers, social workers, crisis 

 3    counselors -- to meet folks who are in that 

 4    crisis.

 5                 And with this budget resolution we 

 6    have taken this a step further with not only an 

 7    initial $22 million investment that includes a 

 8    statewide technical assistance center, 

 9    particularly for the safety of our first 

10    responders and those in mental health crisis.

11                 We also make a commitment for 

12    continual funding so that, statewide, we can 

13    have, for once and for all, a mental health 

14    crisis response system that works.

15                 SENATOR RHOADS:   Thank you, 

16    Senator.

17                 On the resolution.

18                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

19    Rhoads on the resolution.

20                 SENATOR RHOADS:   The Governor's 

21    proposal would have done all that simply by 

22    allowing these facilities to be able to have an 

23    involuntary hold, expanding it from 72 hours to 

24    30 days.  It would have provided those vital 

25    services that those who are facing a mental 


                                                               1137

 1    health crisis would have needed, and would have 

 2    kept them off the streets.  

 3                 I also want to comment on the fact 

 4    that Nassau University Medical Center again 

 5    receives no funding, despite the request that was 

 6    made by four members of this body to provide that 

 7    funding, that critical funding for Long Island's 

 8    only safety-net hospital, despite the fact that 

 9    SUNY Downstate has received last year 400 million 

10    in a direct allocation and receives another 700 

11    million this year -- over a billion dollars for 

12    Downstate.  While Nassau University Medical 

13    Center, facing its own fiscal crisis, receives 

14    nothing.

15                 With respect to public protection 

16    and the V-FIRE grant, there's an additional 

17    $10 million.  But I wanted to make the point that 

18    in the V-FIRE grant, Long Island fire departments 

19    were excluded.  Not a single Long Island fire 

20    department was judged to meet the criteria for 

21    the V-FIRE grant.  And there is nothing within 

22    this budget proposal, other than adding 

23    additional funds, that corrects that injustice.

24                 Thank you, Madam President.

25                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 


                                                               1138

 1    you.  

 2                 Senator Walczyk.  

 3                 SENATOR WALCZYK:   Madam President, 

 4    how much time do we have left?

 5                 SENATOR BROUK:   Three minutes.

 6                 SENATOR WALCZYK:   Madam President, 

 7    I'll go on the resolution.  

 8                 Do we have more than three minutes?  

 9    All right, thank you.

10                 On the resolution.  So here's some 

11    of the questions I was going to ask.  

12                 Disappointed in your conference's 

13    proposal because even your Majority Leader kicked 

14    off this legislative session saying 

15    affordability, affordability, affordability.  

16    This increase in spending is not going to make it 

17    more affordable for New Yorkers.  So one question 

18    I was going to ask is what are we doing about the 

19    $2.3 million spending per day on the National 

20    Guard in our prisons?  Didn't see anything in 

21    your budget resolution or in the Governor's 

22    budget to address how much additional spending 

23    we're going to be doing on the New York National 

24    Guard.  

25                 And the Governor has refused to ask 


                                                               1139

 1    the president of the United States to federalize 

 2    the National Guard, which would save us that 

 3    $2.3 million per day.  

 4                 I was also going to ask about why on 

 5    earth is automatic voter registration in our 

 6    budget?  And I had some good questions on that 

 7    one, but that's probably the most poignant.  

 8                 I also wanted to ask why a public 

 9    banking commission is worth spending half a 

10    million dollars on it and why only Democrats 

11    would be appointed to that banking commission.  

12    Six appointments from a Democratic Governor, 

13    three appointments from a Democratic Majority 

14    Leader, three appointments from a Democratic 

15    Speaker of the Assembly, and one from the 

16    Comptroller, who is a Democrat.

17                 Why is public banking a partisan 

18    issue?  Why wouldn't you want to have Republican 

19    input?  

20                 I was also going to ask some 

21    questions -- which my colleagues did -- about why 

22    the HEAT Act would be included in this budget 

23    proposal.  You're already doing a lot 

24    legislatively to ban natural gas in the State of 

25    New York.  None of that is going to make energy 


                                                               1140

 1    more affordable in the State of New York.  And 

 2    energy costs continue to go up.  

 3                 This resolution also increases a 

 4    special assessment on gas and electric 

 5    corporations from 28.7 million to 35.7 million 

 6    dollars.  Why do we want the ratepayers and the 

 7    taxpayers to pay more for their energy?  

 8                 It also doesn't eliminate NYSERDA's 

 9    systems benefit charge.  It also creates a 

10    $1 billion new slush fund for NYSERDA called 

11    Sustainable Futures Program.  And I had a lot of 

12    questions about what the heck that $1 billion is 

13    going to go to and why only the Finance chair and 

14    the Ways and Means chair would be put on that 

15    program.  Why no rankers?  Why no chairs of the 

16    Energy committees in either house?  Why no 

17    accountability?

18                 And actually, if there's a couple 

19    more minutes, maybe someone would yield for a 

20    question on the education portion of this 

21    resolution.

22                 SENATOR MAYER:   Yes, I'm happy to 

23    answer.

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

25    Mayer will respond.


                                                               1141

 1                 SENATOR WALCZYK:   Thank you.  So 

 2    there's a modification in this Senate proposal to 

 3    regionalize cost factors, is that correct?  

 4                 SENATOR MAYER:   Yes, there is.  

 5    Through you, Madam President.

 6                 SENATOR WALCZYK:   And through you, 

 7    Madam President, would the sponsor continue to 

 8    yield?  

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Does the 

10    Senator yield?  

11                 SENATOR MAYER:   Yes.

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

13    Senator yields.

14                 SENATOR WALCZYK:   Am I reading this 

15    right?  That's for New York City, for Dutchess, 

16    for Orange, for Putnam, for Rockland, for 

17    Sullivan, for Ulster and for Westchester counties 

18    only?

19                 SENATOR MAYER:   Well, first -- 

20    through you, Madam President -- it is increased 

21    modestly for New York City.  It is increased for 

22    the Hudson Valley and for Long Island -- or it 

23    remains the same for Long Island.

24                 SENATOR WALCZYK:   And through you, 

25    Madam President, that begs the question why not 


                                                               1142

 1    for Long Island, why not for Central New York, 

 2    why not for the capital region or the Mohawk 

 3    Valley, why not for Northern New York?

 4                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

 5    do you yield?  

 6                 SENATOR MAYER:   Yes, I yield.  

 7                 Through you, Madam President.  The 

 8    Regional Cost Index is intended to reflect the 

 9    increasing cost or the additional cost of labor 

10    in some regions of the state.  It's not equally 

11    distributed.  These are the regions as determined 

12    by the Department of Labor, and that's what we 

13    used here.

14                 SENATOR WALCZYK:   Thank you, 

15    Madam President.  On the resolution.

16                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

17    Walczyk on the resolution.

18                 SENATOR WALCZYK:   South Dakota, 

19    New Hampshire, Vermont, Idaho, Delaware, 

20    Arkansas, Rhode Island, Mississippi, Alaska, 

21    Wyoming, Montana, West Virginia, Iowa, New 

22    Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Alabama and 

23    Maine.  You know what all of those and all of 

24    those states in the Union have in common?  Their 

25    budgets, their total state budgets are smaller 


                                                               1143

 1    than what your resolution, than what your 

 2    resolution proposes in increase over last year's 

 3    state budget in the State of New York.  You're 

 4    proposing a larger increase to our state budget 

 5    than all of those states have for their total 

 6    spend.

 7                 The United States budget didn't even 

 8    reach $259 billion until 1974.  They ran the 

 9    entire country, they fought communism and the 

10    Vietnam War on less than what you're proposing to 

11    spend here in the State of New York.  And you 

12    have the gall to say this is going to make it 

13    more affordable for New Yorkers.

14                 If you could tax and spend your way 

15    into affordability for the residents of the State 

16    of New York, we would be the most affordable 

17    place to live on earth.  But the residents know 

18    that is not the case.

19                 So you're including bloat, 

20    inefficiency, graft, waste, political slush 

21    funds, hundreds in ill-advised policies in your 

22    resolution, hidden taxes, fees, non-hidden taxes, 

23    and expensive mandates.  You say the word 

24    "affordable," but your resolution tells me you 

25    have no idea what that means.


                                                               1144

 1                 Madam President, I vote no.

 2                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

 3    you, Senator.

 4                 The debate is now closed.

 5                 Call the roll.

 6                 (The Secretary called the roll.)

 7                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

 8    Brouk to explain her vote.

 9                 SENATOR BROUK:   Thank you, 

10    Madam President.  

11                 As chair of the Senate Mental Health 

12    Committee and as a member of the Rochester 

13    community, I recognize that we are in a unique 

14    time.  This month will mark five years since the 

15    death of Daniel Prude, and the mental health of 

16    all New Yorkers is still in crisis.  The 

17    Prude family has been patiently waiting for some 

18    semblance of justice for Daniel, and we have to 

19    make sure that we deliver it.

20                 As legislators and leaders with the 

21    ability to make positive change, I urge us to 

22    consider the weight of this moment.  I urge us to 

23    rise to the challenge of solving our mental 

24    health crisis.  Last year the Daniel's Law Task 

25    Force gathered public input on how to best 


                                                               1145

 1    implement Daniel's Law statewide, and we are now 

 2    including the initial $22 million investment to 

 3    make that a reality.

 4                 What this means is that we are 

 5    closer now than we ever have been at providing 

 6    lifesaving care through Daniel's Law.  With a 

 7    statewide crisis response system, we will see 

 8    fewer individuals falling through the cracks of 

 9    our mental health care system.  We will see more 

10    people getting the help that they need.  

11                 The inclusion of Daniel's Law in 

12    this budget will help us care for all New Yorkers 

13    and make our state a safer place for all of us to 

14    live.

15                 Thank you, Madam President.  I 

16    proudly vote aye.

17                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

18    Brouk to be recorded in the affirmative.

19                 Senator Fahy to explain her vote.

20                 SENATOR FAHY:   Thank you, 

21    Madam Speaker.  

22                 I just rise to note the reasons I am 

23    in support of this one-house resolution.  And I 

24    think there are a whole host of them.  I'm just 

25    going to briefly mention a few.  


                                                               1146

 1                 I'm going to start here in the 

 2    Capital Region, where I am grateful that the 

 3    Governor has included 400 million to focus on our 

 4    downtown revitalization efforts as well as a 

 5    dated State Museum as well as transforming the 

 6    787 highway that was overbuilt in its time and 

 7    it's now way overbuilt.  

 8                 Also very grateful that we have 

 9    included language to transform the Harriman 

10    Campus to bring it into the 21st century.  Also 

11    very grateful to see the Earned Income Tax Credit 

12    included, which will begin to address some of the 

13    affordability issues.  And it's one of the 

14    strongest antipoverty programs since the 1960s.  

15    We're expanding it here in this state to really 

16    target noncustodial parents who are often young 

17    men, and this incentivizes and rewards work.  

18                 Lots on education here.  Grateful to 

19    what the Governor has put in.  We are going 

20    beyond that and also including additional monies 

21    for pre-K which are so critical, as well as 

22    expanding the floor that has been such a problem 

23    in so many districts.  

24                 Same on higher education with 

25    operating dollars as well as increased TAP 


                                                               1147

 1    dollars.  We know if we encourage students we are 

 2    reversing national trends by helping to expand 

 3    TAP, and we are growing our enrollment, 

 4    particularly in SUNY and CUNY, and also adding in 

 5    capital dollars that are critical for their 

 6    energy transition plans and more.

 7                 The same on childcare as well as the 

 8    Child Tax Credit, which is so critical to 

 9    assisting families and again addressing the 

10    critical affordability issues that so many 

11    families face these days.

12                 Similarly on the housing vouchers 

13    which will be important, as well as Aid to 

14    Localities to address additional housing matters.  

15                 Transportation, which is always -- 

16                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator, 

17    how do you vote?  

18                 SENATOR FAHY:   I vote in the 

19    affirmative, and very grateful for a number of 

20    these additions.  Look forward to future 

21    conversations on this.  

22                 Thank you.

23                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

24    Fahy in the affirmative.

25                 Senator May to explain her vote.


                                                               1148

 1                 SENATOR MAY:   Thank you, 

 2    Madam President.  

 3                 I rise in support of this resolution 

 4    because, among other things, it is showing how 

 5    our conference is standing up for upstate 

 6    communities.  

 7                 In the wake of the Congressional 

 8    Republicans voting to gut food assistance 

 9    programs, we are increasing the minimum SNAP 

10    benefit and providing more markets for our 

11    farmers to connect with our schools.

12                 On the day the EPA administrator 

13    bragged about getting rid of air pollution 

14    protections against acid rain, we are fighting 

15    for the health of our lakes and trying to address 

16    the harmful algal bloom program that is ravaging 

17    communities across upstate.

18                 On the day after the Homeland 

19    Security czar came here to threaten farmworkers 

20    and home care workers, we are standing up for our 

21    farmers by promoting more research and investment 

22    in their infrastructure.

23                 In a week when the President 

24    deliberately drove up the cost of construction 

25    materials, we are investing in building more 


                                                               1149

 1    housing with a revolving loan fund and a number 

 2    of other funds to really promote construction and 

 3    reconstruction of homes and apartments.

 4                 And in the face of mass layoffs at 

 5    the federal Department of Education and an 

 6    all-out assault from Washington on our 

 7    world-renowned higher education and medical 

 8    research programs, we are investing in our 

 9    schools and universities.

10                 I am proud to vote aye for this 

11    resolution.  Thank you.

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

13    May to be recorded in the affirmative.

14                 Senator Mayer to explain her vote.

15                 SENATOR MAYER:   Thank you, 

16    Madam President.

17                 I'm proud to vote aye on this 

18    resolution.  I want to highlight two issues.  

19                 One, this resolution includes two of 

20    the bills I sponsor with many of my colleagues to 

21    force changes in the way the Public Service 

22    Commission approves sky-high utility rates that 

23    benefit utility shareholders and hurt regular 

24    ratepayers.  We need a change in the way these 

25    rates are approved, and my bills would do that.


                                                               1150

 1                 Secondly, in the area of education, 

 2    we have shown our direct commitment to public 

 3    education, particularly in the face of this 

 4    federal administration's efforts to gut public 

 5    education.  We've added Foundation Aid, we've 

 6    reflected a true Regional Cost Index, we've 

 7    continued our commitment to pre-K, and we have 

 8    really put our foot down that we need continued 

 9    commitment to career and technical education.

10                 I want to thank the Majority Leader 

11    for her steadfast support of public education, 

12    which is reflected in this resolution.  

13                 I proudly vote aye.

14                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

15    Mayer to be recorded in the affirmative.

16                 Senator Skoufis to explain his vote.

17                 SENATOR SKOUFIS:   Thank you very 

18    much, Madam President.  

19                 I'm surprised to hear comparisons to 

20    other states from some of my colleagues across 

21    the aisle in terms of what we spend here in 

22    New York, with the increases here in New York, 

23    compared to states like West Virginia was on the 

24    list that was rattled off before.  

25                 You know what the life expectancy 


                                                               1151

 1    here in New York is?  Seventy-nine years old.  

 2    You know what it is in West Virginia?  

 3    Seventy-one.  You live eight years less in 

 4    West Virginia than you do here in New York.  

 5                 Let's compare air quality.  Let's 

 6    compare teacher pay.  They had a teacher strike 

 7    in West Virginia just a few years ago.  Maybe, 

 8    just maybe there is something to be said about 

 9    investing in your people in a state government.  

10    And so that's what we do here in this one-house.  

11                 And I didn't hear anything in the 

12    questioning about the actual affordability that 

13    is advanced here in this one-house, from the 

14    Working Families Tax Credit to the reduction in 

15    your PIT if you make under $300,000 a year, to 

16    free breakfast and lunch for all.  That's going 

17    to save most families over a thousand dollars a 

18    year.  

19                 In Orange County, toll relief on the 

20    Thruway, toll relief on the Tappan Zee Bridge, 

21    and so much more.  Senior citizens, three years 

22    of checks.  

23                 It's disingenuous to suggest there 

24    is nothing that speaks to affordability in here.  

25    This is chock-full of affordability.  I proudly 


                                                               1152

 1    vote yes.

 2                 Thank you.

 3                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

 4    Skoufis to be recorded in the affirmative.

 5                 Senator Hinchey to explain her vote.

 6                 SENATOR HINCHEY:   Thank you, 

 7    Madam President.  

 8                 I too rise to celebrate what is in 

 9    this one-house resolution today.  There is a lot 

10    to be proud of.  The week that the federal 

11    government is actually disinvesting in our 

12    farmers and our ranchers across the country by 

13    cutting multiple programs that help get 

14    farm-fresh food into our schools for our kids -- 

15    the weak they are disinvesting and cutting those 

16    programs, we in this resolution not only are 

17    continuing our expansion of universal school 

18    meals for all kids across the state, but we are 

19    also expanding, expanding the Farm to School 

20    program to include all meals -- breakfast, lunch 

21    and snacks -- because we know that kids in every 

22    single community in every corner of the state -- 

23    and, quite frankly, the country -- deserve to eat 

24    locally sourced healthy food.  

25                 We are investing in our upstate 


                                                               1153

 1    communities at a significantly higher rate than 

 2    we have historically by expanding housing 

 3    programs that work for smaller communities and 

 4    rural communities like ours across the state.  

 5                 We're also making sure that we're 

 6    looking at public transit.  And I celebrate the 

 7    study for the Mid-Hudson Transit Authority, and 

 8    hopefully we make it into the final budget, 

 9    because we actually in upstate deserve public 

10    transit too, and that's something that we are 

11    investing in here.

12                 And I celebrate the investment in 

13    our education, specifically looking at the cost 

14    of living in our Hudson Valley communities that 

15    have skyrocketed since the pandemic.  Our budget 

16    takes that into account to make sure that we're 

17    actually supporting our children and recognizing 

18    the cost of living where we live in the 

19    Hudson Valley.

20                 So I am proud to vote aye on this 

21    resolution, and I encourage all of our colleagues 

22    to do the same.

23                 Thank you, Madam President.

24                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

25    Hinchey to be recorded in the affirmative.


                                                               1154

 1                 Senator Brisport to explain his 

 2    vote.

 3                 SENATOR BRISPORT:   Thank you, 

 4    Madam President.  

 5                 I'd like to start by acknowledging 

 6    that for decades, nationwide, the Democratic 

 7    Party has traded away its credibility as a 

 8    stronghold for working-class people, accepting 

 9    corporate campaign donations and becoming 

10    increasingly relying on them, underregulating 

11    entire industries and enabling the resulting 

12    monopolies to raise prices and drive inflation.  

13    Making repeated cuts to social infrastructure 

14    like public education and transit, robbing the 

15    working class of stability and quality of life.  

16                 These were only Republican 

17    strategies, but in following their lead, the 

18    Democratic Party neutralized itself and 

19    normalized empty rhetoric.  The consequence was 

20    widespread disillusionment and vulnerability to a 

21    billionaire con artist.  

22                 To recover, we must rapidly and 

23    fully divorce our party from the ultra-rich and 

24    their corporations.  Our Governor has so far 

25    lacked either the will or the courage to do so.  


                                                               1155

 1                 On the other hand, our Majority 

 2    Leader has put together a budget proposal that 

 3    would move us in the right direction.  By rolling 

 4    back tax breaks on millionaires and billionaires, 

 5    we can implement bold policies to transform the 

 6    lives of working-class families and rebuild a 

 7    viable economy.

 8                 Universal childcare offers us the 

 9    chance to show the nation what genuinely 

10    left-wing policies can do for them.  On top of 

11    resolving the childcare crisis that's crushing 

12    families, funding universal childcare is one of 

13    the most cost-effective ways we can strengthen 

14    our economy.  

15                 Notably, though, while the Governor 

16    claims to support universal childcare, her budget 

17    proposal was absent of the actual funding for it.  

18    Our Majority Leader thankfully has included 

19    $500 million in this proposal to grow and invest 

20    in our childcare workforce, an absolutely 

21    essential step in building universal childcare.  

22                 Stronger messaging that we care 

23    about working-class struggle will not turn the 

24    tides against President Trump.  Funding real 

25    solutions will.  As the final budget is 


                                                               1156

 1    negotiated, Governor Hochul must hear this from 

 2    all of us in this room and across New York.  

 3                 I vote aye.

 4                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

 5    Brisport to be recorded in the affirmative.

 6                 Senator Webb to explain her vote.

 7                 SENATOR WEBB:   Thank you, 

 8    Madam President.  

 9                 I first want to thank our Senate 

10    Majority Leader and our entire staff for working 

11    diligently to put forward this one-house 

12    resolution.

13                 In this moment, this one-house 

14    resolution reflects the conversations and 

15    investments we've been making in our chamber, 

16    most certainly in my time of being here, but 

17    beyond.  And that is this moment we find 

18    ourselves in of continuing to push for more 

19    equitable investments for working families -- and 

20    also meeting the moment that no one wanted to see 

21    and that we are continuing to reel from, and that 

22    is the drastic and devastating cuts and proposed 

23    cuts that will create disparaging impacts on 

24    everyone.  

25                 This one-house resolution reflects 


                                                               1157

 1    our intentionality in making sure that no 

 2    New Yorker is left behind.  When you talk about 

 3    the investments we're continuing to make in 

 4    education, healthcare, our communities are still 

 5    reeling, as the chair of Women's Issues, from the 

 6    overturning of Roe v. Wade.  Yet we are 

 7    continuing as a state to make investments in 

 8    reproductive health and maternal health as we 

 9    deal with the very real crisis of maternal 

10    mortality in our state.  

11                 This one-house resolution reinforces 

12    all those things and more.  Madam President, I 

13    proudly vote aye on this resolution and look 

14    forward to our final budget that will continue to 

15    center the needs of our working families across 

16    this great state of ours.

17                 Thank you, Madam President.

18                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

19    you, Senator.

20                 Senator Webb to be recorded in the 

21    affirmative.

22                 Senator Baskin to explain her vote.

23                 SENATOR BASKIN:   Thank you, 

24    Madam President.  

25                 I rise to also thank the leader for 


                                                               1158

 1    this resolution before us today.  I want to thank 

 2    the leader and our staff for increasing funding 

 3    for lead service line replacement by $100 million 

 4    in the Clean Water Infrastructure Act.  

 5                 The federal government last year 

 6    implemented a rule that all lead service lines 

 7    across the country must be replaced by the year 

 8    2037.  And my district has a disproportionate 

 9    number of lead service lines, particularly in the 

10    City of Buffalo.  So this funding will go a long 

11    way to replace this dangerous source of lead 

12    poisoning and ensure that our children and our 

13    facilities can safely drink water out of their 

14    faucets without worrying about its potential 

15    impact on their health.

16                 Also, Madam President, in this 

17    budget I want to thank the leader and our staff 

18    for improving resources for our small businesses 

19    community.  In this budget particularly we have 

20    emerging entrepreneurs, minority and women-owned 

21    business enterprises, and service-disabled 

22    veterans, who will receive an immense amount of 

23    resources.  

24                 This budget proposal increases 

25    technical assistance and mentorship for our small 


                                                               1159

 1    businesses across the state, and it also creates 

 2    a pathway to get more small businesses into the 

 3    pipeline of contracting with New York State.  If 

 4    a small business can add to their resume that 

 5    they have worked with the State of New York on a 

 6    project, it can be a launch pad for them to take 

 7    the next step and grow their business, which will 

 8    ultimately help our economy.  

 9                 This is why it is important to 

10    holistically improve discretionary buying, which 

11    is also what this budget proposal does, to ensure 

12    that our discretionary buying policies are 

13    resulting in a variety of business types, 

14    benefiting those who engage with state 

15    contracting.  

16                 Madam President, I proudly vote in 

17    the affirmative.  Thank you.

18                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

19    Baskin to be recorded in the affirmative.

20                 Senator Cooney to explain his vote.

21                 SENATOR COONEY:   Thank you, 

22    Madam President.  

23                 You know, at a time when our country 

24    and our state is so divided, transportation 

25    brings us together, both literally and 


                                                               1160

 1    figuratively.  You know, I've heard the debate 

 2    over today's session, and we didn't have a lot of 

 3    debate around transportation, because this budget 

 4    delivers big across our state -- whether we're 

 5    talking about a record investment in upstate 

 6    public transportation, increasing that frequency 

 7    and that opportunity in upstate cities, or 

 8    whether we're talking about our neighbors in 

 9    New York City and our commitment to fully fund 

10    the MTA as it should be.

11                 We are also doing two particularly 

12    interesting things by looking at transportation 

13    through the lens of equity.  So we have proposed, 

14    as the Senate Majority, a new fund of $10 million 

15    to connect workforce opportunities that are 

16    coming to our communities that don't have access 

17    to public transportation, so that all New Yorkers 

18    can access these good-paying jobs.

19                 We've also continued to advance -- 

20    to dream bigger about public transportation, to 

21    dream bigger about how we better connect upstate 

22    to downstate, and we do that through high-speed 

23    rail.  And in this budget we make sure that we 

24    are committing the dollars to study an 

25    alternative route to connect Toronto to New York 


                                                               1161

 1    City.  

 2                 That's the type of big thinking that 

 3    this Senate Majority continues to deliver.  And 

 4    I'm grateful for the leadership of Andrea 

 5    Stewart-Cousins as our Majority Leader, and I 

 6    will be voting in favor of this budget 

 7    resolution.  

 8                 Thank you, Madam President.

 9                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

10    Cooney to be recorded in the affirmative.

11                 Senator Krueger to explain her vote.

12                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Thank you, 

13    Madam President.

14                 First, I want to thank my colleagues 

15    for their participation here today from both 

16    sides of the aisle.  I particularly want to thank 

17    my colleagues in the Democratic Conference for 

18    their incredible work over weeks and weeks and 

19    weeks of hearings, workgroups, intense 

20    discussions going to late at night, fighting out 

21    amongst ourselves what we felt the priorities for 

22    the State of New York should be.

23                 And I hear my colleagues on the 

24    other side say, But this is a big budget, it 

25    keeps going up.  And they're right.  New York 


                                                               1162

 1    State is an expensive state, because we make 

 2    investments that are paying off.  We make 

 3    investments in our education, in our 

 4    infrastructure, in our clean water and air, in 

 5    our training of people to be able to compete here 

 6    for jobs in New York and to compete with the 

 7    world economy.  Because we are the center of this 

 8    country's world economy.

 9                 A new study that just came out 

10    evaluating the 50 states on 28 economic metrics 

11    said that New York State is the highest ranking 

12    and best economy contributing the most to the 

13    country's economic growth.  The analysis looked 

14    at all 50 states, evaluating GDP, unemployment 

15    rate, fiscal health, to determine ones that are 

16    pulling the most weight when it comes to moving 

17    the U.S. economy forward.  

18                 And there's data point after data 

19    point -- yes, our budget costs go up, but nothing 

20    in comparison to how rapidly our GDP has been 

21    going up over the last decade.  Our statewide GDP 

22    now is over $2.3 trillion -- $2.3 trillion in 

23    economic activity in this state.  

24                 So despite the fact that we have 

25    some higher costs than other states, people are 


                                                               1163

 1    coming here, staying here, doing business, 

 2    frankly being incredibly successful in their 

 3    businesses.  We are considered the global hub for 

 4    finance, tech, advertising, media, fashion.  We 

 5    have seen strong growth and recovery since the 

 6    pandemic -- under Democratic leadership at the 

 7    federal level and the state level.  Interesting.

 8                 We have seen a rebound of our GDP 

 9    after everyone's plummeting during the pandemic.  

10    And New York State alone is one of the largest 

11    exporting states in the country, sending nearly 

12    $1.63 billion worth of goods to overseas markets 

13    in 2022, a critical issue for us particularly now 

14    in light of the strange tariff wars we are facing 

15    that will no doubt drive up our costs and 

16    probably result in unemployment.

17                 And this budget is a reflection of 

18    those values and those goals to continue New York 

19    on the path of being so effective and successful 

20    in translating our government priorities to the 

21    programs and services that the people of New York 

22    need.

23                 And as you heard already from my 

24    colleagues, even though the questions weren't 

25    asked of us, we've built in all kinds of new 


                                                               1164

 1    improvements of affordability for the New Yorkers 

 2    who need the help, which is many.  And so we are 

 3    investing in child tax credits.  We are investing 

 4    in expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit for 

 5    those without children.  We are investing in 

 6    rebate checks for older New Yorkers who find 

 7    themselves very often in housing problems because 

 8    their costs of property taxes are growing as 

 9    their fixed incomes are not.  

10                 We are making investments in 

11    affordable housing.  In fact, the Governor 

12    proposed a $1 billion fund for the City of 

13    New York, City of Yes.  We took a look and said:  

14    But we know exactly where that money should be 

15    spent and how it could be most effectively used.  

16    So we outlined in our one-house exactly where 

17    that billion dollars should be spent.  

18                 And then we said, but we need to do 

19    more for upstate housing as well, so we invested 

20    in expanded programs and new programs for 

21    affordability in housing -- not just for the City 

22    of New York, where they were already putting 

23    4 billion in and we were adding a billion, but 

24    also for the rest of the state.

25                 We understand that mass transit is 


                                                               1165

 1    the future of the economy not just of the City of 

 2    New York, not even just of the MTA region, but 

 3    the entire New York-Connecticut-New 

 4    Jersey-Pennsylvania region.  We understand that 

 5    those kinds of investments -- which create great 

 6    jobs, by the way, all over the State of 

 7    New York -- are the kind of investment we need to 

 8    be making so that we continue to be the leader in 

 9    the 21st century for our state and our country.  

10                 And the data's clear.  So my 

11    colleagues like to talk about some increase in 

12    costs of -- I think they said 28 million to 

13    35 million specifically for one issue in 

14    utilities.  So that's like $7 million.  I think 

15    the Con Ed president just gave himself a bigger 

16    salary increase than that for one person.

17                 There's a lot of questions that need 

18    to be asked, and they should be asked here and 

19    other places.  But I am incredibly proud to be a 

20    member of this Senate, of being given the honor 

21    of being the Finance chair of the New York State 

22    Senate.  And I'm very, very proud of the work 

23    we've done and what we've delivered, and I 

24    proudly vote yes.  

25                 Thank you, Madam President.


                                                               1166

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Senator 

 2    Krueger to be recorded in the affirmative.

 3                 Majority Leader Stewart-Cousins to 

 4    close.

 5                 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS:   Thank you 

 6    so much, Madam President.  And thank you for 

 7    presiding over this very important discussion 

 8    around our budget resolution.  

 9                 I also want to thank Deputy Leader 

10    Mike Gianaris as well as our chair of our 

11    conference, Senator Serrano, for helping us get 

12    through this debate.  

13                 Of course to our Minority Leader, 

14    Robert Ortt, and Senator Gianaris's counterpart, 

15    Senator Lanza.  I am sorry I missed your birthday 

16    yesterday, but a belated Happy Birthday.  I'm 

17    sure you'll be celebrating; we're going to get 

18    you out of here soon.

19                 (Laughter.)

20                 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS:   And of 

21    course to the Finance ranker Tom O'Mara and all 

22    of our colleagues across the aisle for your 

23    constructive engagement.  

24                 And of course a special 

25    acknowledgement to my Finance chair.  You did a 


                                                               1167

 1    great job of doing part of my speech.  I don't 

 2    even --

 3                 (Laughter.)

 4                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   Sorry.

 5                 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS:   Yeah, 

 6    that's good.

 7                 -- who, you know, tirelessly -- 

 8    you know, she always threatens to -- I'm glad you 

 9    said you were honored.  I will make sure to tell 

10    you every time you say "Oh, why me?" that -- but 

11    I really, really thank you for your tireless 

12    commitment to getting it done and getting it 

13    right.  And, you know, your expertise and 

14    experience really helps us in so many ways.  So I 

15    thank you.

16                 And of course I want to further 

17    extend my gratitude to Governor Hochul and to 

18    Speaker Heastie for their year-round partnership.  

19                 And as I always say, I am grateful 

20    to be engaged in a rowing exercise where we are 

21    all usually rowing in the same direction, and the 

22    same is here in this budget.

23                 Also I want to offer deep gratitude 

24    to the staff on both sides of the aisle.  But I 

25    do want to give a special thank you to Jonathan 


                                                               1168

 1    Lang, secretary of the Majority Counsel Program; 

 2    to Dorothy Powell -- yeah, give a little 

 3    applause -- 

 4                 (Laughter; applause.)

 5                 SENATOR STEWART-COUSINS:   To 

 6    Dorothy Powell, counsel; to David Friedfel, 

 7    finance secretary; to Mike Murphy, communications 

 8    director; Leah Goldman, director of 

 9    intergovernmental affairs; and all the staff 

10    members whose hard work and dedication have made 

11    today's one-house budget possible.  So again, 

12    thank you to you all.  Thank you.  

13                 (Applause.)

14                 SENATOR MAYER:   And of course I 

15    want to thank my own Senate Majority colleagues 

16    for your unwavering dedication, your hard work, 

17    your advocacy not only for your districts but for 

18    the entire state.  You know, and a real shared 

19    vision for the prosperity of the state and 

20    everyone in it.

21                 Today we come together at a unique, 

22    chaotic and arduous moment in the world outside 

23    these chambers.  As your Senate Majority Leader, 

24    we're honored to present our one-house budget 

25    resolution, a bold, compassionate and fiscally 


                                                               1169

 1    responsible plan that directly addresses the most 

 2    pressing concern for New Yorkers:  Affordability.  

 3                 We hear a lot about affordability 

 4    across the aisle, yet my same colleagues stood 

 5    silent when the Trump administration and 

 6    Republican congressional majorities proposed 

 7    massive tax breaks to the ultrawealthy while 

 8    hardworking lower- and middle-class New Yorkers 

 9    are paying more for less support, beginning with 

10    cuts to Medicare, housing, now Social Security, 

11    even food.  

12                 In stark contrast, this Senate 

13    Majority has delivered and expedited the lowest 

14    middle-class tax rates New York has seen in over 

15    70 years.  And now we're even ending the luxury 

16    yacht tax break our colleagues across the aisle 

17    handed out during your last majority.

18                 As I've always said, budgets are 

19    priorities.  Our budget modifies the Governor's 

20    rebate proposal, ensuring long-term financial 

21    support for seniors as well as an expansion of 

22    the Working Families Tax Credit and the Earned 

23    Income Tax Credit, delivering sustained relief to 

24    low- and middle-income families.  The Earned 

25    Income Tax Credit is expanded to younger workers 


                                                               1170

 1    by lowering the eligibility age from 25 to 19, 

 2    and increasing refunds for single working people 

 3    to help cover essential costs like rent and 

 4    groceries.  

 5                 Housing remains a cornerstone in our 

 6    budget.  We commit 250 million to the Housing 

 7    Access Voucher Program to prevent homelessness 

 8    and ensure rental assistance.  We invest 75 

 9    million in public housing authorities outside of 

10    New York City, 50 million to rehabilitate vacant 

11    rental units.  And as part of the City of Yes 

12    proposal that my colleague just mentioned, we 

13    provide a billion dollars for housing, including 

14    $500 million for public housing.  And we also 

15    provide funding to help homeowners remain in 

16    their homes across the state.  Every New Yorker 

17    deserves a safe and stable home.  

18                 We continue our historic commitment 

19    to education by fully funding Foundation Aid, 

20    expanding universal pre-K with $150 million, and 

21    investing a half a billion in childcare workforce 

22    stabilization to increase childcare availability.  

23    Additionally, 25 million is allocated to expand 

24    nontraditional-hour childcare.  

25                 We build on the Governor's proposal 


                                                               1171

 1    for universal free school meals by expanding Farm 

 2    to School programs, ensuring children receive 

 3    nutritious, locally sourced food, and providing a 

 4    boost to our New York family farms.  

 5                 Our budget also significantly 

 6    expands support for higher education with an 

 7    additional 74.3 million for SUNY, 114 million for 

 8    CUNY.  We create a five-year $1 billion annual 

 9    capital plan to modernize campuses and hospitals, 

10    increase support for student mental health, and 

11    expand financial aid.

12                 With looming abhorrent Medicaid cuts 

13    slated by Republicans in Washington, we safeguard 

14    healthcare access with 1.5 billion in new 

15    investments, including $355 million for 

16    hospitals, 250 million for nursing homes, and 

17    100 million for New York City Health + Hospitals.  

18                 We strengthen reproductive 

19    healthcare with 35 million for the Reproductive 

20    Freedom and Equity grant program and expand 

21    Medicaid protections for vulnerable communities.  

22                 Additionally, we invest $100 million 

23    in children's behavioral health clinics and 

24    allocate 22 million for crisis response teams 

25    under Daniel's Law.


                                                               1172

 1                 Public safety remains a priority, 

 2    with 46 million for violence prevention and other 

 3    public safety programs, $20 million for 

 4    Family Court access, and expanded support for 

 5    jail-based medication assisted treatment to 

 6    combat opioid addiction.

 7                 Our small businesses, the backbone 

 8    of our economy, receive targeted support, 

 9    including new unemployment insurance tax credits 

10    for small businesses with 50 or fewer employees, 

11    helping offset some of their costs.  We also 

12    increase MWBE funding and support for Main Street 

13    revitalization.

14                 Our commitment to affordability and 

15    economic security extends to the hardworking 

16    people who keep our state running.  That's why 

17    this budget takes significant steps to support 

18    workers across industries.  We expand temporary 

19    disability insurance to ensure that more 

20    New Yorkers have the financial support they need 

21    during health challenges.  Construction workers 

22    will see stronger prevailing wage protections, 

23    guaranteeing fair pay on publicly funded 

24    projects.  

25                 This budget reflects our fundamental 


                                                               1173

 1    belief that when we invest in workers, we 

 2    strengthen New York's economy, families and 

 3    communities.  We take bold steps to address the 

 4    climate crisis by expanding clean water funding 

 5    to $700 million, increasing funding for energy 

 6    affordability programs by 200 million, and 

 7    creating a $2,000 rebate for used zero-emission 

 8    vehicles.

 9                 Despite misinformation from fossil 

10    fuel interests, states like Texas have 

11    demonstrated that renewable energy can provide 

12    the cheapest electricity in the nation.  Our 

13    budget meets this urgency with an additional 

14    $100 million investment in the Environmental 

15    Protection Fund, funding for clean water 

16    projects, incentives for zero-emission vehicles, 

17    and accelerated renewable energy infrastructure.

18                 Additionally, we establish the 

19    Office of Climate Resiliency to coordinate state 

20    responses to climate threats and invest in 

21    floating solar incentives.

22                 Finally, as the daughter of a combat 

23    veteran who bravely served despite 

24    discrimination, I was really outraged by a recent 

25    Congressman -- a Republican Congressman whose 


                                                               1174

 1    dismissive remarks about veterans employment 

 2    rights not being God-given.  Our budget honors 

 3    veterans with an increase in veterans' services 

 4    funding, a new property tax exemption for 

 5    100 percent service-disabled veterans, and 

 6    expanded Gold Star annuity benefits.  This 

 7    includes additional funding for the Federal 

 8    Defense Program and $300,000 for New York Helmets 

 9    to Hard Hats to support veterans transitioning to 

10    trade careers.  

11                 Our budget provides nearly 

12    $4 million more for veteran housing, job 

13    training, legal assistance and mental health 

14    care.  Our veterans fought for us.  We must fight 

15    for them.

16                 As we progress, I welcome the 

17    challenging yet necessary conversations and 

18    negotiations with the Executive and the Assembly.  

19    Though the road ahead may be difficult, through 

20    collaboration and our shared commitment, we can 

21    create greater opportunities and build a stronger 

22    New York even in these perilous times for our 

23    nation.

24                  Today is about more than the 

25    budget.  It's about our collective promise to 


                                                               1175

 1    every New Yorker.  It's about reaffirming our 

 2    shared values of fairness, equity and resilience, 

 3    and our commitment to a brighter, stronger future 

 4    for our state.  We have repeatedly proven that 

 5    when we invest in our people, we strengthen our 

 6    communities, our economy and our state.  

 7                 So I look forward to the work ahead 

 8    and delivering on our shared promise to build a 

 9    New York that truly works for everyone.

10                 Thank you, Madam President.  I vote 

11    yes.

12                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Thank 

13    you.  Majority Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousins to 

14    be recorded in the affirmative.

15                 (Applause.)

16                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   Announce 

17    the results.

18                 THE SECRETARY:   In relation to 

19    Resolution 488, those Senators voting in the 

20    negative are Senators Ashby, Borrello, 

21    Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick, Chan, Gallivan, Griffo, 

22    Helming, Lanza, Martins, Mattera, Murray, 

23    Oberacker, O'Mara, Ortt, Rhoads, Rolison, Stec, 

24    Tedisco, Walczyk, Weber and Weik.

25                 Ayes, 36.  Nays, 21.


                                                               1176

 1                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   The 

 2    resolution is adopted.

 3                 Senator Serrano.

 4                 SENATOR SERRANO:   Is there any 

 5    further business at the desk?

 6                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   There is 

 7    no further business at the desk.

 8                 SENATOR SERRANO:   I move to adjourn 

 9    until Monday, March 17th, at 3:00 p.m., with the 

10    intervening days being legislative days.

11                 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:   On 

12    motion, the Senate stands adjourned until Monday, 

13    March 17th, at 3:00 p.m., with intervening days 

14    being legislative days.

15                 (Whereupon, at 2:05 p.m., the Senate 

16    adjourned.)

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