Public Hearing - February 14, 2022

                                                                       1

 1  BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE
    AND WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES
 2  -----------------------------------------------------

 3          JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING

 4             In the Matter of the
           2022-2023 EXECUTIVE BUDGET ON
 5                MENTAL HYGIENE
    
 6  -----------------------------------------------------

 7  
    
 8                              Virtual Hearing 
                               Conducted via Zoom
 9  
                                February 14, 2022
10                              11:04 a.m.
    
11  
    PRESIDING:
12
              Senator Liz Krueger
13            Chair, Senate Finance Committee
    
14            Assemblywoman Helene E. Weinstein
              Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee
15  
    PRESENT:
16
              Senator Thomas F. O'Mara
17            Senate Finance Committee (RM)
    
18            Assemblyman Edward P. Ra 
              Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)
19  
              Senator Samra G. Brouk
20            Chair, Senate Committee on Mental Health
    
21            Assemblywoman Aileen Gunther
              Chair, Assembly Committee on Mental Health 
22  
              Senator John W. Mannion
23            Chair, Senate Committee on Disabilities
    
24


                                                                   2

 1  2022-2023 Executive Budget
    Mental Hygiene
 2  2-14-22
    
 3  PRESENT:  (Continued)
    
 4            Assemblyman Thomas J. Abinanti
              Chair, Assembly Committee on People with
 5             Disabilities
    
 6            Senator Pete Harckham
              Chair, Senate Committee on Alcoholism 
 7             and Substance Abuse
    
 8            Senator Diane J. Savino
    
 9            Assemblyman Angelo Santabarbara
    
10            Senator John Liu
    
11            Assemblywoman Melissa Miller
    
12            Assemblywoman Mary Beth Walsh
    
13            Senator Sue Serino
    
14            Assemblywoman Chantel Jackson
    
15            Assemblyman Khaleel M. Anderson
    
16            Assemblyman Harry B. Bronson
    
17            Senator George M. Borrello
    
18            Assemblywoman Sarah Clark
    
19            Assemblywoman Nathalia Fernandez
    
20            Senator Michelle Hinchey
    
21            Assemblyman Philip A. Palmesano
    
22            Assemblyman Edward Gibbs
    
23            Assemblywoman Anna R. Kelles 
    
24            Senator Mike Martucci
    

                                                                   3

 1  2022-2023 Executive Budget
    Mental Hygiene
 2  2-14-22
    
 3  PRESENT:  (Continued)
    
 4            Assemblyman Harvey Epstein
    
 5            Assemblywoman Didi Barrett
    
 6            Assemblyman Chris Burdick
    
 7            Assemblywoman Judy Griffin
    
 8            Assemblyman Erik M. Dilan
    
 9            Senator James Tedisco
    
10            Senator Peter Oberacker
    
11            Assemblyman Jarett Gandolfo
    
12            Assemblyman Keith P. Brown
    
13            Senator Anna Kaplan 
    
14            Assemblyman Edward C. Braunstein
    
15            Senator Simcha Felder
    
16            Assemblywoman Emily Gallagher
    
17  
    
18

19

20

21

22

23

24


                                                                   4

 1  2022-2023 Executive Budget
    Mental Hygiene
 2  2-14-22
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS
    
 4                                       STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  Ann Marie T. Sullivan
    Commissioner
 6  NYS Office of Mental Health            13          22
     (OMH)
 7  
    Kerri Neifeld 
 8  Acting Commissioner 
    NYS Office for People With
 9   Developmental Disabilities           120         125
     (OPWDD)                              
10  
    Dr. Chinazo Cunningham
11  Commissioner
    NYS Office of Addiction 
12   Services and Supports (OASAS)        179         188
    
13  Denise M. Miranda 
    Executive Director
14  NYS Justice Center for the
     Protection of People with 
15   Special Needs                        218
    
16  Tracy Schneider
    President
17  Federation of Mental Health 
     Services
18       -and-
    Glenn Liebman
19  CEO
    Mental Health Association
20   in New York State                    
         -and-
21  Laura Kelemen
    1st Vice Chair 
22  NYS Conference of Local
     Mental Hygiene Directors             
23       -and-
    Nadia Chait
24  Director of Policy & Advocacy
    Coalition for Behavioral Health       225         239 

                                                                   5

 1  2022-2023 Executive Budget
    Mental Hygiene
 2  2-14-22
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued  
    
 4                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  
    
 6  Donna March Tilghman
    SAPIS Chapter Chairperson 
 7  Local 372 NYC Board of Education 
     Employees, DC 37 AFSCME
 8       -on behalf of-
    Substance Abuse Prevention and
 9   Intervention Specialists (SAPIS)
         -and-
10  Andrea Smyth
    President & CEO
11  NYS Coalition for Children's
     Behavioral Health
12       -and-
    Matthew Shapiro 
13  Director of Public Affairs
    National Alliance on Mental 
14   Illness of New York State             
         -and-
15  Alice Bufkin
    Associate Executive Director
16   of Policy and Advocacy
    Citizens' Committee for 
17   Children of New York
         -and-
18  Arthur Diamond
    Supreme Court Justice (Ret.)         255        273
19  

20

21

22

23

24


                                                                   6

 1  2022-2023 Executive Budget
    Mental Hygiene
 2  2-14-22
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued  
    
 4                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  
    
 6  Harvey Rosenthal 
    Executive Director 
 7  NY Association of Psychiatric
     Rehabilitation Services              
 8       -and-
    Ruth Lowenkron
 9  Director, Disability Justice
     Program
10  NY Lawyers for the Public Interest
         -and-
11  Evelyn Graham Nyaasi
    Steering Committee Member
12  Correct Crisis Intervention 
     Today-NYC
13       -and-
    Mary Tanillo
14  Director
    Western NY Comprehensive Care
15   Center for Eating Disorders            280       294
    
16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24


                                                                   7

 1  2022-2023 Executive Budget
    Mental Hygiene
 2  2-14-22
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued  
    
 4                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  Annette Montstream
    Service Coordinator
 6  Judicial Process Commission
         -and-
 7  Jeffrey Berman
    MICA Project Attorney, Mental 
 8   Health Unit, Legal Aid Society
         -for-
 9  Treatment Not Jail Coalition
         -and-
10  Charles King
    CEO
11  Housing Works
         -and-
12  John J. Coppola
    Executive Director
13  NY Association of Alcoholism 
     and Substance Abuse Providers
14       -and-
    Dr. Angelia Smith-Wilson
15  Executive Director
    Friends of Recovery New York          
16       -and-
    Allegra Schorr
17  President
    Coalition of Medication-Assisted
18   Treatment Providers & Advocates          301       321
    
19  Rachelle Kivanoski
    Family Advisory Collaboration
20   and Statewide CCO Member
         -and-
21  Susan Platkin
    Advocate
22  NY Self-Determination Coalition
         -and-
23  BJ Stasio
    Board Co-Vice President 
24  Self-Advocacy Association 
     of New York State                        337       347

                                                                   8

 1  2022-2023 Executive Budget
    Mental Hygiene
 2  2-14-22
    
 3                     LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued  
    
 4                                        STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
    
 5  Erik Geizer
    CEO
 6  The Arc New York
         -and-
 7  Michael Seereiter
    President & CEO
 8  New York Alliance for
     Inclusion & Innovation
 9       -and-
    Winifred Schiff
10  Associate Executive Director 
     for Legislative Affairs
11  InterAgency Council of
     Developmental Disabilities
12   Agencies
         -and-
13  George Contos
    CEO
14  YAI
         -and-
15  Sebrina Barrett
    Executive Director
16  Association for Community 
     Living (ACL)                           352       369
17  
    
18  

19

20

21

22

23

24


                                                                   9

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Good morning.  I 

 2           am State Senator Liz Krueger, the chair of 

 3           the Senate Finance Committee, and I am 

 4           cochairing today's budget hearing.  This is 

 5           Monday, February 14th -- Happy Valentine's 

 6           Day.  Our hearing today is on the mental 

 7           hygiene sections of the Executive Budget.  

 8                  Today is the 10th of 13 hearings 

 9           conducted by the joint fiscal committees of 

10           the Legislature regarding the Governor's 

11           proposed budget for state fiscal year 

12           '22-'23.  These hearings are conducted 

13           pursuant to the New York State Constitution 

14           and Legislative Law.

15                  Today the Senate Finance Committee and 

16           the Assembly Ways and Means Committee, 

17           chaired by Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein, 

18           will hear testimony concerning the Governor's 

19           proposed budgets for the Office of Mental 

20           Health, the Office for People With 

21           Developmental Disabilities, the Office of 

22           Addiction Services and Supports, and the 

23           Justice Center for the Protection of People 

24           With Special Needs.


                                                                   10

 1                  Following each commissioner's 

 2           testimony there will be some time for 

 3           questions from the chairs and relevant 

 4           members of the fiscal committee and matching 

 5           committee to the commissioner's topic.

 6                  I will now introduce members of the 

 7           Senate, and Assemblymember Helene Weinstein, 

 8           chair of the Assembly Ways and Means 

 9           Committee, will introduce members from the 

10           Assembly.

11                  In addition, Senator Tom O'Mara, the 

12           ranking member of the Senate Finance 

13           Committee, will introduce members from his 

14           conference, and I believe Assemblymember Ra 

15           will do the same for his.

16                  So starting out with the Senators who 

17           are with us so far today -- and more and more 

18           will be joining us as the day goes on -- I am 

19           joined by Senator Samra Brouk, the chair of 

20           the Mental Health Committee, Senator George 

21           Borrello, Senator John Liu, Senator Tom 

22           O'Mara, my ranker that I just mentioned, 

23           Senator Diane Savino.  Just double-checking 

24           if I've missed anyone else.  Senator Sue 


                                                                   11

 1           Serino, Senator Tedisco.  And I believe -- 

 2           Senator Mike Martucci, Senator Oberacker.  We 

 3           have a bunch jumping on right as I speak.  

 4                  I think that's it for now, so let me 

 5           pass it to Tom O'Mara to introduce his 

 6           members, although I think I just introduced a 

 7           few.  Sorry about that.

 8                  SENATOR O'MARA:  I think you just did, 

 9           Liz, but that's fine.  We got them in.  Happy 

10           Valentine's Day, everybody.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  I got 

12           carried away, Tom.  I was on a roll.  

13                  And now turning it over to 

14           Assemblymember Helene Weinstein to introduce 

15           the Assembly.

16                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  We 

17           have with us our Mental Health chair, Aileen 

18           Gunther.  Then Assemblymembers Anderson, 

19           Bronson, Burdick, Clark, Dilan, Epstein, 

20           Fernandez, Jackson and Santabarbara.

21                  And let me turn it over to 

22           Assemblyman Ra, the ranker on Ways and Means, 

23           to introduce the members of his conference.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, Chair.  


                                                                   12

 1           Good morning, everybody.

 2                  We are joined currently by 

 3           Assemblywoman Missy Miller, who is the 

 4           ranking member on our Committee on People 

 5           with Disabilities; Assemblyman Gandolfo, our 

 6           ranker on Mental Health, and Assemblyman 

 7           Palmesano.  And I believe our ranker on 

 8           Alcoholism and Substance Abuse, Keith Brown, 

 9           should be along shortly as well.  Thank you.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Back to the 

11           Senate.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

13                  Okay.  So we already had a weekend, so 

14           just to remind everybody of the rules, the 

15           commissioners will summarize their testimony 

16           in 10 minutes or less.  There's a clock for 

17           everyone to keep their eye on, on the screen.

18                  We have everyone who's testifying's 

19           full testimony, so we can be following along 

20           or we may have read it in advance.

21                  After the commissioner testifies, the 

22           chair of the relevant committee will have 

23           10 minutes to ask questions.  The rankers 

24           will have five minutes.  Everyone else will 


                                                                   13

 1           have three minutes.

 2                  With that, I would like to introduce 

 3           Dr. Ann Marie T. Sullivan, the commissioner 

 4           of the New York State Office of Mental 

 5           Health.  

 6                  Good morning, Commissioner.

 7                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Good 

 8           morning.  Good morning.  

 9                  I'm Dr. Ann Sullivan, commissioner of 

10           the New York State Office of Mental Health.  

11           Chairs Krueger, Weinstein, Brouk, Gunther and 

12           members of their respective committees, I 

13           want to thank you for the invitation to 

14           address the OMH's '22-'23 budget.

15                  As we all know, the last two years of 

16           the COVID pandemic have presented 

17           unprecedented challenges to the mental health 

18           of individuals and families across our state. 

19           The mission of the New York State Office of 

20           Mental Health is to promote the mental health 

21           of all New Yorkers, with a particular focus 

22           on providing hope and recovery for adults 

23           with serious mental illness and children with 

24           serious emotional disturbances.  


                                                                   14

 1                  With an estimated 40 to 50 percent of 

 2           New Yorkers having a significant mental 

 3           health impact from this pandemic, there is an 

 4           increased need for timely and effective 

 5           services that reach equally to all our 

 6           communities.  The pandemic has also alerted 

 7           us to the increased need for mental health 

 8           prevention and wellness, and the need to 

 9           address any hesitancy about asking for help 

10           when needed.  

11                  Governor Hochul's Executive Budget 

12           this year provides an exceptional opportunity 

13           to build the mental health infrastructure 

14           needed to better support New Yorkers by 

15           proposing a historic $577 million increase to 

16           the mental health budget.  

17                  From the very beginning of the 

18           pandemic, our mental health care workers have 

19           been on the front lines.  The pandemic has 

20           dramatically exacerbated concerns related to 

21           recruiting and retaining essential workers. 

22           The Governor's budget recognizes that we must 

23           address the current hemorrhaging of our 

24           workforce -- by not just saying that we owe a 


                                                                   15

 1           debt of gratitude, but by actually paying the 

 2           debt we owe.  

 3                  This year's Executive Budget includes 

 4           an historic 5.4 percent cost of living 

 5           adjustment for community mental health 

 6           providers licensed, designated and/or funded 

 7           by OMH.  The Governor's budget also includes 

 8           legislation authorizing retention bonuses up 

 9           to $3,000 for full-time essential frontline 

10           workers.  Additionally, the budget includes 

11           resources for the statutory minimum wage 

12           increases.  These much-needed investments 

13           will help rebuild and grow the workforce, 

14           improve the career pipeline, and expand 

15           access to services.  

16                  We also know that despite the 

17           resources that we develop in the community, 

18           there are individuals who are not able to 

19           access those services without a great deal of 

20           support.  The Governor has launched the Safe 

21           Options Support initiative to assist 

22           individuals living with serious mental 

23           illness who are homeless.  Beginning with 

24           individuals living in the subways of New York 


                                                                   16

 1           City, the budget includes $11 million in 

 2           '22-'23 to develop 20 new Safe Options 

 3           Support teams, with a multidisciplinary team 

 4           of 12 staff, to reach thousands of homeless 

 5           individuals using an evidence-based Critical 

 6           Time Intervention model.  

 7                  This investment in support services, 

 8           combined with a two-year plan to provide for 

 9           additional stabilization investments in 

10           community residential programs, provides for 

11           a comprehensive approach to housing the 

12           homeless.  

13                  The pandemic has had a particular 

14           impact on the mental health of young people 

15           across the nation.  In New York, between 

16           March and July of 2020, it is estimated 

17           tragically that 4,200 children lost a parent 

18           or caregiver to COVID, and early estimates 

19           show more than 6,000 deaths by suicide 

20           nationally in children and young adults 

21           during 2020.  

22                  This year's budget has several 

23           initiatives to address the mental health 

24           crisis among youth and families, including 


                                                                   17

 1           $10 million to fund the expansion of the 

 2           Home-Based Crisis Intervention Program.  

 3           Home-based crisis intervention provides 

 4           short-term, intensive, in-home intervention 

 5           services to a family in crisis as an 

 6           alternative to admitting their child to a 

 7           psychiatric hospital.  The expansion will 

 8           enable these programs to serve more than 

 9           2,600 families each year, doubling the 

10           current volume.  

11                  Addressing the trauma caused by the 

12           pandemic in school-aged children is a 

13           priority.  The Governor's budget includes 

14           $10 million in new resources to invest in 

15           school-based mental health to provide 

16           statewide learning and mental health grants 

17           to high-need school districts, including 

18           additional funding to expand access to mental 

19           health services in schools.  

20                  The funding will support the hiring of 

21           mental health professionals, the expansion of 

22           the almost 1,000 school-based mental health 

23           clinics, particularly in the most impacted 

24           communities, and other evidence-based mental 


                                                                   18

 1           health supports for students and school 

 2           staff.  

 3                  The budget also includes resources to 

 4           expand the NYS Trauma-Informed Network 

 5           throughout the child-serving system, to 

 6           address the range of experiences that may be 

 7           trauma-inducing for young children and their 

 8           families, especially since the start of the 

 9           pandemic.  

10                  And for those youth and families that 

11           need intensive, brief residential supports, 

12           there is increased funding to support our 

13           residential treatment facilities and advance 

14           the most innovative best practices.  

15                  OMH has been working diligently in 

16           collaboration with the Office of Addiction 

17           Services and Supports and stakeholders on the 

18           implementation of the 988 three-digit 

19           behavioral health hotline as a single point 

20           of entry for behavioral health crises, which 

21           will begin in July of this year.  This year's 

22           budget includes $35 million for FY '23 and 

23           grows to $60 million in FY '24 in new 

24           resources for the expansion of call center 


                                                                   19

 1           capacity, which builds on an already existing 

 2           $17 million in federal grants currently 

 3           underway, for the necessary start-up 

 4           resources to build that capacity and expand 

 5           functionality to include 24/7 call, text, and 

 6           chat capacity across the state as well as 

 7           support linkages to New York's 

 8           community-based crisis system. 

 9                  To better serve New Yorkers, the 

10           crisis continuum includes expanded mobile 

11           crisis services, the development of crisis 

12           stabilization centers, and crisis residential 

13           programs.  

14                  The Governor’s Budget includes 

15           $65 million in new resources in 2022-'23 and 

16           an additional $39 million next year, as part 

17           of a two-year plan for investments in 

18           supported housing, single-room occupancy and 

19           community residence programs.  The budget 

20           also includes $36 million for full support 

21           for the residential pipeline, including 

22           almost 1,700 new supported beds.   

23                  The local capital budget includes 

24           $60 million in capital funding to address 


                                                                   20

 1           maintenance, repairs, and preservation 

 2           projects for existing community beds.  And to 

 3           support the expansion of community care and 

 4           crisis services, the 2022-'23 Executive 

 5           Budget annualizes another $22 million for 

 6           Community Mental Health Reinvestment.  

 7                  Additionally, the increased need for 

 8           mental health services caused by the pandemic 

 9           is addressed by enhanced clinic rates and 

10           additional resources designed to improve 

11           access to care.  The Executive Budget also 

12           includes appropriations for the full 

13           reinvestment of $74 million state share in 

14           projected recoveries, which represent OMH's 

15           share of the reinvestment of managed care 

16           savings recovered from managed care 

17           organizations.  

18                  OMH will also be providing new 

19           resources to expand the integration of mental 

20           health services into primary care through 

21           HealthySteps, an evidence-based prevention 

22           program which improves health and behavioral 

23           health outcomes.  To expand capacity, OMH and 

24           DOH will partner to provide Medicaid 


                                                                   21

 1           reimbursement for dyadic services offering 

 2           support for parent and child at the same time 

 3           in these programs, and licensed behavioral 

 4           health professionals will be fully integrated 

 5           into pediatric well-child visits.  

 6                  Building on the success of the crisis 

 7           counseling services provided by New York 

 8           Project Hope, this year's budget includes 

 9           $2.5 million in new resources to pilot a 

10           mental health wellness program designed to 

11           equip a community-based workforce of lay 

12           personnel trained in mental health to focus 

13           on wellness.  

14                  We also know that helping individuals 

15           to become employed increases wellness and is 

16           at the heart of rehabilitation and recovery.  

17           This year $2.5 million in new resources has 

18           been budgeted to improve employment 

19           opportunities throughout New York State 

20           through a unique partnership between OMH and 

21           the Department of Labor called the Employment 

22           Services System, which is at the forefront of 

23           Employment First initiatives.  

24                  Importantly, the Governor's budget 


                                                                   22

 1           also includes $7.7 million in funding for 

 2           statewide coverage for the Joseph P. Dwyer 

 3           Veteran Services Program that provides 

 4           peer-to-peer support to vets.  

 5                  Again, thank you for this opportunity 

 6           to report on our efforts to address historic 

 7           needs in response to a pandemic and to 

 8           support and continue the work that we have 

 9           jointly embarked upon to transform New York's 

10           mental health system.  

11                  I'm happy to answer any questions you 

12           have.  Thank you.  

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

14           much, Commissioner.

15                  Our first questioner will be the chair 

16           of the Mental Health Committee, Senator Samra 

17           Brouk.

18                  SENATOR BROUK:  Good morning.  

19                  Good morning, Commissioner.  Happy 

20           Valentine's Day.  Thank you for joining us 

21           today.  

22                  First of all, I just want to 

23           acknowledge the fact that a lot of the things 

24           you just described are things that the state 


                                                                   23

 1           has been working towards, certainly that I've 

 2           been working towards for quite some time, so 

 3           they're definitely positive and encouraging 

 4           steps forward as we've been able to talk.

 5                  You know well that my priorities as 

 6           chair have been threefold.  One is rebuilding 

 7           our mental health crisis system, specifically 

 8           through that lens of racial justice.  As many 

 9           of us have seen, there is so much inequity 

10           and racism in the systems that we have 

11           existing, and so any rebuilding or 

12           reinvestment that we're doing, we want to 

13           make sure that we are righting those wrongs 

14           of the past.  

15                  Two is diversifying and growing our 

16           workforce.  The Governor has done a lot for 

17           that in this proposal, and we're grateful for 

18           the 5.4 percent COLA.  Of course we know that 

19           there's more to be done there with the 

20           $500 million fund for really historic lack of 

21           payment to these folks.

22                  And then, finally, services to our 

23           youth.  I'm so glad to hear you highlight 

24           that in such a big way in your testimony, 


                                                                   24

 1           that we are all under the understanding that 

 2           we are in a crisis for our youth and their 

 3           mental health.  The Surgeon General 

 4           understands that there's that crisis.  And I 

 5           would like us to do more than just have our 

 6           school-based interventions.  I think some of 

 7           the things you outlined are going to be 

 8           important in addressing those.

 9                  So thank you for some of those things 

10           coming through.

11                  I want to hone in on one piece of the 

12           Executive Budget, specifically on Kendra's 

13           Law and some of the expansion that the 

14           Governor has proposed.

15                  Can you just walk me through, first of 

16           all, roughly how many New Yorkers -- how many 

17           New Yorkers have been affected by Kendra's 

18           Law or under the AOT orders?

19                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Currently 

20           there are about 3,400 New Yorkers, about 1400 

21           in the city and the rest upstate, who are 

22           currently on AOT orders.  And the number of 

23           individuals over time who have received 

24           orders have been about 19,000.  Kendra's Law 


                                                                   25

 1           began in 1999.

 2                  SENATOR BROUK:  And out of that, 

 3           whether you have for the 19,000 or for the 

 4           3,000 now, how does the racial makeup of 

 5           those individuals affected relate to the -- 

 6           or reflect the demographics of the state 

 7           overall?  

 8                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  There's 

 9           definitely a higher number in Kendra's Law of 

10           both Black and Hispanic than white members, 

11           both upstate and downstate -- a little bit 

12           higher downstate than upstate.

13                  Sadly, those numbers also match the -- 

14           pretty close to the number of individuals who 

15           are generally in the public mental health 

16           hospitals and also in the community-based 

17           hospitals.  So that disproportionate number 

18           is something that has been, sadly, in place 

19           for a long time and seems to be a part of the 

20           intensive services of the mental health 

21           system in New York.

22                  So many factors may contribute to 

23           that.  Some of them may be environmental, and 

24           some of them may be social determinants.  But 


                                                                   26

 1           it is something that needs to be looked at 

 2           very, very closely.

 3                  When there was a study done by Duke, 

 4           who looked at our AOT, they didn't feel that 

 5           AOT as a commitment, outpatient commitment, 

 6           was really being used disproportionately, 

 7           they felt it was just symptomatic of what's 

 8           unfortunately and sadly a part of our mental 

 9           health system.

10                  SENATOR BROUK:  And I can see that.  I 

11           think a lot of us see that.  And I'm glad you 

12           brought up social determinants of health.  

13           This is -- you know, we can never look at 

14           mental health as a silo, right?  And this is 

15           all part of, you know, someone's holistic 

16           life and the access they have to resources, 

17           how they're seen by emergency first 

18           responders, how they're seen by judges.  

19           We've seen it through the criminal justice 

20           system; we have a lot of reforms here in 

21           New York to correct some of those.

22                  But I guess my question is, you know, 

23           with the understanding that I 

24           think especially since a couple of summers 


                                                                   27

 1           ago, a lot of us have started to reckon with 

 2           the fact that it is incumbent on us, as we 

 3           expand and invest in these emergency 

 4           resources, to make sure that we are righting 

 5           these wrongs.  So while it might not be the 

 6           fault of AOT or something inherently wrong 

 7           with Kendra's Law, the fact of the matter is 

 8           there are people being disproportionately 

 9           affected and losing control and the ability 

10           to voluntarily seek treatment.  

11                  So my question is as we think about -- 

12           we know Kendra's Law is set to expire.  The 

13           Governor's proposal both not only extends it 

14           but also expands its ability to be used 

15           quite -- even easier than it's being used 

16           now.

17                  So what steps are you all looking 

18           at -- you said you're looking into it.  What 

19           steps are you taking, especially now as we 

20           think about potential extensions of this law, 

21           to correct some of those systemic racial 

22           injustices and to make sure that if we're 

23           moving forward, we're actually going to 

24           correct some of these things that we've seen?  


                                                                   28

 1                  And perhaps it not all lies in 

 2           Kendra's Law, right?  Perhaps there are 

 3           alternatives that we need to be looking at to 

 4           make sure that at the end of the day people 

 5           are getting help they need, but in a way that 

 6           makes sense for them and that is safe for 

 7           them.

 8                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  

 9           Absolutely.  I think what we're -- you know, 

10           this has to begin further downstream than 

11           when you get to Kendra's Law.  

12                  We are looking at all the new services 

13           that we're putting up, including the crisis 

14           stabilization centers and some of the other 

15           crisis services, and the expansions.  We're 

16           looking at the areas of the state most 

17           impacted and the areas in the state that are 

18           most in need.  And I think that's where you 

19           begin.  You really begin by looking and being 

20           very careful about where and how you set up 

21           services, and then you have to evaluate over 

22           time that you are really doing a good job of 

23           what you think you're doing.

24                  And one of the things which we are 


                                                                   29

 1           going to be putting out soon -- we have 

 2           already done it to the state hospital system, 

 3           and we'll now be going into the community -- 

 4           is something we're calling a diversity 

 5           dashboard, where we really look at data to 

 6           show us whether we are serving our 

 7           communities well.  

 8                  So for example, are Black and Hispanic 

 9           individuals getting the same degree of 

10           primary care if they have mental illness as 

11           individuals who are white?  And we're going 

12           to look at the data to show that throughout 

13           our system.  We've already started to do that 

14           in the state hospital system and the clinic 

15           system, and we'll be expanding it outside.  

16                  So we have to begin to right the 

17           wrongs of what's been going on in not just 

18           the mental health system, but throughout 

19           healthcare, of the disparities in care which 

20           exist between Black and brown communities and 

21           the white communities.  And some of that is 

22           beginning to put our services in places and 

23           to make sure that they are acceptable and 

24           culturally appropriate for those areas.  


                                                                   30

 1                  You know, we can't design something 

 2           that people won't come to.  I mean, that's 

 3           not going to help.  And you see that.  It's 

 4           happened.  I'm not going to say it doesn't 

 5           happen.  When we did Project Hope, New York 

 6           Project Hope, we had a helpline.  The 

 7           helpline was a telephone line.  The telephone 

 8           line is primarily utilized by whites.  There 

 9           are Blacks and Hispanics who use it, but 

10           primarily the white population.  

11                  And then we thought, jeez, that's 

12           interesting, isn't it?  And then we looked at 

13           what we were doing in our outreach, and we 

14           were not reaching the underserved 

15           communities.  

16                  So what we did was we connected with 

17           grassroots organizations, went out and made 

18           sure that we were talking to the communities.  

19           And currently the populations that are seen 

20           by New York Project Hope, 40 percent of the 

21           calls -- 40 percent of the contacts, not the 

22           calls, but the contacts are in our Black 

23           communities, and 38 percent in our Hispanic 

24           communities.


                                                                   31

 1                  SENATOR BROUK:  Thank you --

 2                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  So it can 

 3           be done.  It can be done.  We just need to 

 4           focus on it -- I'm sorry, Senator -- and make 

 5           sure that as we put out these services, we 

 6           are looking at disparities and making sure 

 7           that we're taking care of people who need it.

 8                  SENATOR BROUK:  I couldn't agree more 

 9           on that.  So because you brought data 

10           collection up, I'm going to just quickly 

11           pivot.  And as brief as you can be as 

12           possible, because we have so much to get 

13           through.  And I hate interrupting people, 

14           frankly.

15                  So I want to move on to the 988 bill, 

16           which is obviously a huge priority.  Our team 

17           has worked on that last year, along with 

18           Assemblywoman Gunther, the other chairwoman.  

19           But you did mention data collection and 

20           reporting when it came to Kendra's Law.  I 

21           agree, data collection is incredibly 

22           important when we're tracking who's 

23           benefiting from these.  But one thing I was 

24           disappointed in, in the implementation plan 


                                                                   32

 1           we saw for 988, it wasn't nearly as robust 

 2           the type of data collection that we had 

 3           originally wanted to see, specifically to 

 4           make sure we're holding ourselves accountable 

 5           for how we are treating hard-to-serve 

 6           populations.

 7                  So do you plan on putting into effect 

 8           a data collection reporting mechanism 

 9           specifically on how you're treating different 

10           populations through 988?

11                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes.  Yes.  

12           And I know it isn't in the bill, but yes, it 

13           will be.  And all the data will be broken 

14           down by, you know, race and ethnicity, 

15           et cetera.  And we'll be looking at that data 

16           and will be clearly parsing it to understand 

17           who's using the services and how well we are 

18           providing them.  Yes, absolutely.  

19                  And I know it's not in, but it will 

20           be.

21                  SENATOR BROUK:  Where will that be 

22           available?  Is that going to be publicly 

23           available?  

24                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes.  Yes, 


                                                                   33

 1           absolutely.

 2                  SENATOR BROUK:  Wonderful.  I can't 

 3           fit anything possibly in 35 seconds, and I 

 4           know Senator Krueger will cut me off.  So 

 5           thank you, Commissioner.  I look forward to 

 6           speaking with you more on a lot of these 

 7           issues, and appreciate what you've done so 

 8           far.

 9                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.  

10           Thank you, Senator.  

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And thank you for 

12           handing back your 22 seconds, Samra, 

13           appreciate it.  

14                  I want to introduce some other 

15           Senators who joined us:  Senator Michelle 

16           Hinchey, Senator Pete Harckham, Senator John 

17           Mannion, Senator Anna Kaplan, Senator Simcha 

18           Felder.  And I'm now going to turn it over to 

19           the Assembly to introduce and call the next 

20           chair.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We've been 

22           joined by Assemblymembers Gibbs, Braunstein, 

23           Kelles, Barrett, Griffin.  

24                  And we go to our Mental Health chair, 


                                                                   34

 1           Aileen Gunther, for 10 minutes.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  Hi, and good 

 3           morning.  How are you?

 4                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Good 

 5           morning.  Good morning.

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  So Samra asked 

 7           some questions that were going to be similar 

 8           to mine, so I won't be repetitive.

 9                  So first of all, she did touch on the 

10           COLA of 5.4 percent.  And beyond this fiscal 

11           year, will we be extending that out year 

12           after year?  You know, there has been such -- 

13           they've really suffered from such low wages 

14           for so long, I just want to assure that this 

15           is only the beginning, not the end.

16                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  This 

17           current COLA of 5.4 percent is -- that's 

18           permanent.  However, whether there will be an 

19           additional COLA next year, that will be 

20           decided next year.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  Well, I hope 

22           that you will advocate for that.  Because 

23           it's been so long, it's mostly a woman's 

24           profession -- and I would encourage you, 5.4, 


                                                                   35

 1           you know, when you -- it's a step in the 

 2           right direction, but we need a lot more 

 3           steps.  We've got to go up to the top of the 

 4           steps soon.

 5                  So the second thing I wanted to ask 

 6           you, in HMH, Part B establishes that New York 

 7           State will join the Interstate Medical 

 8           Licensure Compact and Interstate Nursing 

 9           Licensing.

10                  Does this proposal impact the 

11           behavioral health service system?  

12                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes, it 

13           should make it easier for individuals to move 

14           and serve clients in New York State.  You 

15           know, sometimes that's a bit of a deterrent 

16           because New York State has been a little 

17           cumbersome in terms of getting your licenses 

18           renewed or started.  So I think basically, 

19           yes, it should help.  It should help.

20                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  I know for 

21           myself I got my nursing license in 

22           California.  And so when I came back, I had 

23           to go through that horrible process.

24                  The Executive Budget also proposes 


                                                                   36

 1           Article VII language to provide bonuses of 

 2           $3,000 to healthcare and mental health staff.  

 3           And we already mentioned the COLA.  Are there 

 4           any other proposals in the budget that would 

 5           help behavioral health service providers 

 6           recruit and retain their employees, such as 

 7           loan forgiveness or a rate increase that 

 8           would allow them really to increase their 

 9           salaries either way?  Is there anything for 

10           that?  

11                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yeah, 

12           there's a number of proposals.  Well, from 

13           the block grant -- or from the SAMHSA block 

14           and the FMAP, there are dollars which will be 

15           going out in terms of giving providers the 

16           ability to do things like additional bonuses 

17           for retention, tuition reimbursement, 

18           individuals -- perhaps hazard pay, whatever 

19           those providers are doing.  So that's all 

20           being figured out in terms of -- I think 

21           it's almost $25 million in the block grant 

22           and then there's another input from the FMAP.

23                  In addition to that, some of those 

24           dollars which also came from the federal 


                                                                   37

 1           government are going to be used to try to 

 2           grow the mental health workforce pipeline, 

 3           with some stipends for individuals who 

 4           would -- for example, working with CUNY and 

 5           SUNY for like $10,000 stipends of individuals 

 6           who will then work for two years in a mental 

 7           health program anywhere that's funded by 

 8           Medicaid.

 9                  So those kinds of initiatives are 

10           there and moving out to help enable growth of 

11           the mental health field.

12                  And then in addition, there's a number 

13           of rate increases, which are really very 

14           important.  There's going to be an additional 

15           rate increase, I believe another 5 percent on 

16           top of the 5.4 percent for clinic services, 

17           which raises the clinic rate, and also 

18           increased -- rate increases for PROS Act and 

19           our residential services.

20                  So those are all embedded in a 

21           contribution of funding from federal and also 

22           the savings that were attributed from the 

23           managed care companies in terms of the MHLR 

24           and BHT.  And LR.  So there is an increase in 


                                                                   38

 1           rates.

 2                  As you said, Aileen, getting those 

 3           rates up helps providers then be able to pay 

 4           the salaries that enable them to recruit more 

 5           people.  

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  They're still 

 7           low, though, Dr. Sullivan.  But, you know, 

 8           they're climbing a little bit, but are still 

 9           very -- you know, if you live in New York 

10           City, they're working in two different places 

11           because they can't afford to live unless they 

12           do.

13                  So I also want to go into child mental 

14           health.  And most of our schools at this 

15           point -- and many of our schools -- I know in 

16           the budget there are increases in social 

17           workers.  But, I mean, there really needs to 

18           be some standard at this point.  Our 

19           children, because of the COVID isolation, the 

20           anxiety of the parents, are -- are impacting 

21           the children.

22                  So what are we going to do between 

23           those children from 5 to 17 years old, 

24           they've missed school, isolation, they're 


                                                                   39

 1           talking about young children that have worn 

 2           masks and the fact that they're emotionally 

 3           kind of stunted, they don't see smiles, they 

 4           don't see sad faces.  So what are we going to 

 5           do to invest in this generation of children?  

 6           We are in trouble, in my mind.

 7                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I think 

 8           there's been a -- you know, as you said, 

 9           there's been a serious impact on our youth 

10           from this pandemic.  There's --

11                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  Delayed 

12           language -- delayed language is part of it.

13                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  I mean, it 

15           goes through the gamut.  And I think that 

16           between mental health and I think education, 

17           we have to be more than just proactive.  

18           There was a doctor, I'm going to pronounce 

19           her name wrong, Dr. Murthy, M-U-R-T-H-Y, she 

20           did -- U.S. Surgeon General, and she talked 

21           about isolation and loneliness, anxiety, 

22           stresses, the economic stresses.  And really 

23           we should be worried.  And the investment -- 

24           we should at this point start that 


                                                                   40

 1           investment.  

 2                  There aren't the social workers in 

 3           school.  We cannot wait for this.  We don't 

 4           have psychiatrists, they don't take Medicaid.  

 5           There are so many different things that I 

 6           really -- you know, we've talked about other 

 7           things, but I'm worried about our children 

 8           and this generation.  And what are we going 

 9           to do?  Psychiatrists don't take my health 

10           insurance.  So what are we going to do to get 

11           these children the care that they need, get 

12           social workers back in the school, get a 

13           registered nurse in every school?  This is 

14           what we have to do going forward.  I mean, I 

15           want your help.

16                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.  

17           And you'll -- you will have our help.  

18                  First of all, we have now in the 

19           schools about a thousand school-based 

20           clinics, and we're going to be growing those 

21           school-based mental health clinics.  I think 

22           that's the most effective way in some ways to 

23           have an impact in the schools.  

24                  Secondly, we'll be working with the 


                                                                   41

 1           Department of Ed, and they have received a 

 2           large -- $100 million to look at putting, as 

 3           you said, Aileen, some social workers and 

 4           others in the schools.  And we work jointly 

 5           with them.

 6                  The third thing is we're doing a --

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  When you say 

 8           they work jointly, I -- that word to me is 

 9           the most important word.  A lot of times we 

10           dictate from the top-down.  We're still doing 

11           it.  We're still doing it.  You're telling 

12           people how to run their schools or what their 

13           children need.  And you know what, it's a 

14           top-down -- I want to see who is getting the 

15           money, how it's going to be spent, and what 

16           innovative way can we have to recharge 

17           children, as well as within our community.  

18                  Those are the things.  You can throw 

19           as much money as you want.  I want to know 

20           process and program.

21                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well --

22                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  And I know 

23           you're used to it, you've been under the 

24           tunnels and everything else.  But we don't do 


                                                                   42

 1           it.  We don't do it.  We're not doing it.  

 2           You know?  We have to be -- we have to change 

 3           our ways.

 4                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I agree.  

 5                  And just to highlight one program that 

 6           we're going to be -- it's the doubling of our 

 7           home-based crisis intervention services.  

 8           That serves about 1300 families across the 

 9           state now.  In the budget we're going to go 

10           to 2600 families.  So that's something very 

11           concrete that will grow within the next year.  

12           And that provides intensive home-based 

13           services for the families that are in the 

14           most crisis.  And that will be --

15                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  That's an 

16           itty-bitty number, though.

17                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, it's 

18           a --

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  We're in one 

20           of the largest crises that we've had in I 

21           don't know how long.  That's an itty-bitty 

22           number.  We have to -- you know, instead of 

23           giving it to capital programs, you know, 

24           let's build these programs to make people 


                                                                   43

 1           healthy.  And you know what?  New York State 

 2           will save a boatload of money.

 3                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  The --

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  I know that 

 5           the -- there also, with the Joseph P. Dwyer, 

 6           you have 7.7 million to fund the statewide 

 7           expansion, which I thank you for.  

 8                  The home-based crisis intervention 

 9           program expansion is phenomenal, and I hope 

10           that we can work together.  And I hope that 

11           the Governor is aware that the needs in the 

12           mental health community are so great, greater 

13           than ever.  

14                  And I'm willing to work with all of 

15           you, but I feel like my last word would be, 

16           don't -- don't legislate from the top down.  

17           Please legislate from the bottom up, because 

18           that's the only way we're going to solve any 

19           of these problems.

20                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  Am I 

22           cutting you off, Aileen, or were you done? 

23                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  No, you're not 

24           cutting me off.  My big mouth is shut now.


                                                                   44

 1                  (Laughter.)

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I did not say 

 3           anything to that effect, just for the record.  

 4           I Was just double-checking that I was not 

 5           cutting you off.  Thank you.  

 6                  Our next Senator is Senator Jim 

 7           Tedisco, ranker on Mental Health, for five 

 8           minutes.  

 9                  I know he was here until just a second 

10           ago.  Jim, are you here?  Oh, his chair is 

11           empty.  I think that's a sign he's not with 

12           us.  So I'm actually going to jump over him 

13           to Senator John Liu, and we'll come back.

14                  Hi, John.  Are you ready?

15                  SENATOR LIU:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  

16           I'd be happy to take over the minutes that 

17           the ranker has.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Sorry, can't do 

19           that.

20                  SENATOR LIU:  Okay.  Well, I tried.

21                  But Commissioner, thank you very much.  

22           I appreciate the thoughtfulness about -- in 

23           your comments about the mentally ill and 

24           those who need additional services and 


                                                                   45

 1           resources.  

 2                  Unfortunately, in the Asian-American 

 3           community we have seen our share of 

 4           individuals who fall under that category, and 

 5           I hope that your department will undertake 

 6           every effort to provide that kind of 

 7           assistance, support and services to 

 8           individuals who unfortunately have been a 

 9           danger to themselves and to others.  And 

10           unfortunately, in at least a couple of 

11           incidences just this past month, having 

12           tragic circumstances, including the killing 

13           of a person in Chinatown yesterday morning 

14           and the shoving of Michelle Go onto the 

15           subway tracks about a month ago.

16                  At the same time, the Asian-American 

17           community, as you're well aware of, has been 

18           facing a crisis of anti-Asian attacks, 

19           bigotry, bias incidents.  And that also has 

20           had an effect on the mental health of the 

21           community.  I'm wondering if there's anybody 

22           in your office or any team that's been put 

23           together to assess the impact of the ongoing 

24           anti-Asian hate on the community, and what 


                                                                   46

 1           resources or what services your department 

 2           may be able to provide.

 3                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, 

 4           thank you, Senator Liu.

 5                  And yes, within the department we have 

 6           an Office of Diversity and Inclusion, which 

 7           has been looking at the needs of communities 

 8           that suffer from racism, suffer from hate, as 

 9           you said, and suffer from those very tragic 

10           societal influences that can cause the tragic 

11           events that have happened recently.

12                  And that group is working on the 

13           various marginalized communities throughout 

14           the state, including the Asian community.

15                  We've been working with, for example, 

16           a group of providers in the Lower East Side 

17           of New York City who serve, largely, the 

18           Asian community.  They have come to us, and 

19           we've been working with them on helping them 

20           screen and work with individuals who are 

21           coming in with anxiety and depression 

22           secondary to the incredible pressures that 

23           are happening right now in the Asian 

24           community.  And we are keeping track of the 


                                                                   47

 1           number of -- the access of -- the ability for 

 2           our Asian population, our Asian members in 

 3           the state to access services, especially in 

 4           hard-hit areas like New York City.

 5                  So we are definitely working with the 

 6           communities, and we will continue to work 

 7           with them.

 8                  SENATOR LIU:  Commissioner, I'm happy 

 9           to hear that you're working with these 

10           organizations, many of which are probably 

11           more equipped -- better equipped than 

12           government, whether they be state or city 

13           government, to reach these communities and 

14           provide that relief.  

15                  Do you think that there are enough 

16           resources for these organizations, or might 

17           your department be able to help with more 

18           resources?  

19                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, we 

20           share what resources we have.  I think we're 

21           kind of assessing how many -- what the 

22           resource need is.  We're constantly -- and I 

23           know that the Governor is very concerned with 

24           making sure that we deal with the trauma that 


                                                                   48

 1           everybody has experienced, both from the 

 2           pandemic and the results of the pandemic.  

 3                  So yes, we're evaluating the resources 

 4           that are needed.  And there may be more 

 5           needed; it's not clear yet.  But we are 

 6           looking.

 7                  SENATOR LIU:  Thank you so much.

 8                  Thank you, Madam Chair.

 9                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.  

10                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go now to 

11           the Ways and Means ranker, Assemblyman Ed Ra.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, Chair.  

13                  Good morning, Commissioner.  Thank you 

14           for your testimony.

15                  So the pandemic has drastically 

16           changed the working environments for both 

17           healthcare workers and first responders.  

18           These individuals, as you know, have put in 

19           endless hours, had to navigate all the 

20           changing mandates, and seen and dealt with 

21           immense loss and tragedies.  And I think it's 

22           imperative, as the pandemic winds down, that 

23           these individuals are not forgotten and we 

24           continue to provide services and programs 


                                                                   49

 1           that will help them deal with the mental 

 2           strain the pandemic has caused.  

 3                  Our conference for many years has been 

 4           a major proponent of the Joseph P. Dwyer 

 5           Program that helps veterans receive mental 

 6           health services, and we are very glad to see 

 7           the program is expanded and included in this 

 8           year's Executive Budget.  And we would like 

 9           to see perhaps a portion of the $2 billion 

10           reserve for COVID-19 public health response 

11           included in the Executive Budget to be used 

12           to seed and create a similar program and 

13           services to help healthcare workers and first 

14           responders deal with the mental health 

15           impacts from the pandemic.

16                  What would your thoughts be about 

17           perhaps using some portion of that money 

18           that's reserved for COVID response and relief 

19           to seed some type of program for those 

20           populations?

21                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, we 

22           are working with -- we have a fairly 

23           extensive, what we call a trauma-informed 

24           network that has been funded and has been 


                                                                   50

 1           funded in this year's budget by the Governor 

 2           for $10 million to expand.  And what that 

 3           does in particular is work with the 

 4           individuals who -- frontline workers -- it 

 5           works with others as well, but a lot of 

 6           workers, frontline workers who have 

 7           experienced the trauma of the pandemic.  

 8                  And I think that those resources are 

 9           important for individuals who have 

10           experienced the kind of loss and the kind of 

11           pain that our frontline workers have 

12           experienced.

13                  We've also used a lot of those 

14           resources from New York Project Hope to also 

15           work with frontline workers and have the 

16           availability of working with them in terms of 

17           dealing with the trauma that they've 

18           experienced.  

19                  So there's a lot of work going on 

20           currently.  And I think that, you know, we 

21           have to assess what else is needed over time, 

22           and we will look at that.  But I think that 

23           we need to be very open to the prevention we 

24           need with frontline workers, but then also to 


                                                                   51

 1           have the mental health services available if 

 2           they need them, and have easy access to 

 3           mental health services, which is the other 

 4           issue that the budget builds upon.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you for that.

 6                  So going back to the Dwyer program, 

 7           though, you know, I think it's a great thing 

 8           that the Governor has included it in the 

 9           Executive Budget.  I think this is, you know, 

10           a program that everybody supports, and it 

11           shouldn't ever be kind of used as a, you 

12           know, political football like the former 

13           governor used to use it.  So I definitely 

14           applaud the Governor including it and the 

15           expansion of it as well.

16                  Do you know, you know, how many 

17           additional counties will be able to be 

18           included with this additional funding?  Are 

19           we going to be able to expand it statewide to 

20           all counties that don't currently have 

21           programs?  Or how will that work in terms of 

22           selecting these counties and disbursing the 

23           funding?  

24                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  We think 


                                                                   52

 1           we'll be able to expand it to all the 

 2           counties that don't have the programs now, 

 3           with the funding.  That's the goal, and we'll 

 4           make sure that happens.  

 5                  I think that the Dwyer program is 

 6           exceptionally effective with veterans.  

 7           Peers, we know, veterans talking to former 

 8           veterans is the best way to help them, 

 9           especially in that transition from service 

10           back to the community.

11                  So yes, the intent is here to have it 

12           in every county across the state.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Great.  Thanks so 

14           much.

15                  Madam Chair, I will give back my 

16           minute and a half. 

17                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Great.  

18                  We've been joined by Assemblywoman 

19           Gallagher, and back to the Senate.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

21           much.  

22                  And I don't believe I see Senator 

23           Tedisco back yet, so we are going to continue 

24           to move along until we find him, with Senator 


                                                                   53

 1           Borrello.

 2                  SENATOR BORRELLO:  Thank you, 

 3           Madam Chair.  And thank you, Commissioner, 

 4           for being here.  

 5                  You know, we've had a lot of talk 

 6           today about Kendra's Law, and I'm glad to 

 7           hear that.  But for me, Kendra's Law is 

 8           actually very personal.  It's named after 

 9           Kendra Webdale.  And her and I grew up 

10           together and went to school together in the 

11           little town of Fredonia.  And I can tell you 

12           that her tragic death back in 1999 shocked 

13           our whole community.  

14                  And, you know, last year we tried to 

15           strengthen Kendra's Law in the budget process 

16           and allow those -- a lot of that was just 

17           stripped out.  It was -- we were talking 

18           about civil rights of potentially those 

19           folks.  But the reality is is that the civil 

20           rights of Kendra Webdale and now, tragically, 

21           Michelle Go were stripped away in an instant 

22           by someone that should just not have been on 

23           the streets.  

24                  And that's really what this is about, 


                                                                   54

 1           because Kendra's Law is great, but from what 

 2           I understand, it's grossly underutilized.  

 3           You've got about 40 percent of people in 

 4           New York City, the most seriously mentally 

 5           ill, are going untreated.  And these tools 

 6           are effective.  It's been proven to reduce 

 7           homelessness and arrests and violence and 

 8           incarceration in about 70 percent of the 

 9           time.

10                  So my question to you is, you know, 

11           it's great to talk about strengthening it, 

12           but are we actually going to do it?  And what 

13           specifically are we going to do to ensure 

14           that this law is utilized to help those 

15           people that are suffering such severe mental 

16           crises?  

17                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yeah, 

18           thank you, Senator.

19                  You know, just -- you're absolutely 

20           right that Kendra's Law has been tremendously 

21           effective in terms of decreasing 

22           hospitalizations, decreasing violence, 

23           decreasing homelessness.

24                  So I think it's a very effective use 


                                                                   55

 1           of what some people consider a reduction in 

 2           rights, but I think what it does is really 

 3           help individuals get their lives on track and 

 4           do better.  

 5                  Basically Kendra's Law, we're asking 

 6           first of all for a five-year extension again, 

 7           so that the law continues.  And then there 

 8           are a couple of things that will make it, I 

 9           think, as you said, utilized more.

10                  One is when someone is coming off 

11           Kendra's Law, there's a six-month period that 

12           we're requesting that it would be easy -- 

13           essentially, by going back to court without 

14           having to go back to the original criteria -- 

15           to have someone go back and see the judge 

16           again if, during that six-month post-Kendra's 

17           Law there is a significant return of symptoms 

18           or inability to care for yourself.

19                  It's interesting that the law -- the 

20           law has certain requirements, and basically 

21           during that particular -- as you come off, 

22           and you don't want to be able to go back to 

23           those original requirements, because they may 

24           not be applicable.  So that's one way to be 


                                                                   56

 1           able to help individuals who may need the 

 2           help after they leave Kendra's Law.  

 3                  The other is to have video 

 4           conferencing available for physicians to 

 5           testify.  A major issue with making Kendra's 

 6           Law timely for individuals is physician 

 7           availability.  We all know about the crisis 

 8           of physician shortages, especially 

 9           psychiatrist shortages across the state.  So 

10           that video conferencing will be extremely 

11           helpful.

12                  And then the third is just to ensure 

13           that when someone has been put under Kendra's 

14           Law, they are on AOT, that they can easily 

15           get the records from their hospitalization.  

16           And that has been a little bit of an issue 

17           relative to some HIPAA requirements.  By 

18           putting that in statute in New York State, 

19           that means that all that information will be 

20           available to the AOT team if you've been 

21           hospitalized, that the hospitals can give 

22           that information.  And that's very important 

23           in terms of doing a good job for AOT.  

24                  So those are the proposals which are 


                                                                   57

 1           currently in to extend and also to hopefully 

 2           be able to expand the use of Kendra's Law 

 3           appropriately -- always appropriately -- for 

 4           individuals who are in need.

 5                  SENATOR BORRELLO:  Thank you so much.  

 6                  And I know Senator Savino is also hot 

 7           on this issue as well, and I appreciate 

 8           everyone's support.  This should be a 

 9           bipartisan issue to try and get those folks 

10           help.

11                  Thank you.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

13                  Back to the Assembly.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We have the 

15           ranker on Mental Health, Assemblymember 

16           Gandolfo, for five minutes.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Chair, I think he had 

18           to hop off.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Okay, so then 

20           we will go to -- thank you.  We'll go to 

21           Assemblymembers who will be three minutes 

22           each, but the first, who's been waiting 

23           patiently, is Assemblymember Fernandez.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FERNANDEZ:  Thank you so 


                                                                   58

 1           much, Chair.  

 2                  And thank you, Commissioner, for being 

 3           here today.

 4                  I want to echo, first off, the 

 5           comments of our Senate chair and our Assembly 

 6           chair of Mental Health about the need to 

 7           really address what's happening in our 

 8           schools.  We know that children have been 

 9           suffering, and I commend you for making sure 

10           that that is in the budget.  But to follow 

11           off Aileen Gunther's concerns, we really want 

12           to make sure that money is going to the 

13           communities that need it, that our schools 

14           are implementing it well.  And I trust that 

15           you will make sure that happens, and you hear 

16           our concerns.  

17                  But in regards to mental health and 

18           our prison systems, I didn't hear you mention 

19           anything about making sure that those that 

20           are incarcerated are getting the help that 

21           they need.  We know that Rikers Island in 

22           New York City is the biggest in the city, if 

23           not the state, when it comes to being a 

24           mental health hospital.  


                                                                   59

 1                  So in the midst of a very public 

 2           conversation about the intersection between 

 3           mental health and crime, currently 50 percent 

 4           of incarcerated people at Rikers qualify for 

 5           mental health services.  Rikers, by default, 

 6           is one of the largest mental health 

 7           facilities in the country, as I said.  How 

 8           can we better support people suffering from 

 9           mental health challenges with the criminal 

10           legal system and better end this cycle of 

11           incarceration to make our communities safer?

12                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I think in 

13           the prison system, which is the place where 

14           the Office of Mental Health has our services, 

15           and we are responsible for the services in 

16           the prison system, I've done a number of 

17           things which I think Rikers could easily -- 

18           well, Rikers could consider in terms of the 

19           city providing these kinds of services.

20                  First of all, we have a continuum of 

21           services that includes hospital -- which 

22           Rikers also has, because it refers to Health 

23           + Hospitals.  But then we have crisis beds, 

24           we have intensive beds for individuals, for 


                                                                   60

 1           inmates, and we also have an established 

 2           clinic system, almost, of treatment within 

 3           the prison system.

 4                  You need to have mental health 

 5           services that reach all levels of mental 

 6           health intensity in the prison system.

 7                  The second thing we have -- and I 

 8           think Rikers has some of this, but it's very 

 9           important -- is for individuals -- again, in 

10           the prison system, people stay for a longer 

11           period of time.  So before they leave, we 

12           have specialized units for individuals with 

13           significant mental illness where they get 

14           specialized treatment and readiness for going 

15           back into the community.  

16                  And then we have a whole host of 

17           after-care services that include once people 

18           leave the community, which includes some 

19           specialized housing, some specialized 

20           forensic teams, et cetera.  So you need that 

21           kind of continuum of services.

22                  Now, jails, people do not stay as 

23           long, so those things could be abbreviated.  

24           But I think within -- it's something for 


                                                                   61

 1           places of the jail system to consider putting 

 2           those mental health services in place.  We 

 3           feel that that has been effective in the 

 4           prison system, where we're responsible for 

 5           the mental health care.

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FERNANDEZ:  Okay.  Well, 

 7           I could say too that Rikers certainly needs 

 8           more assistance in getting those services, as 

 9           well as other prisons in the state.

10                  But are you familiar with the 

11           Treatment Not Jails legislation that's 

12           currently pending in the Assembly and the 

13           Senate?  And what are your thoughts about 

14           expanding community-based, court-mandated 

15           treatment options for people facing criminal 

16           charges?  

17                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I think 

18           expanding the ability to divert individuals 

19           with mental illness from prisons and jails is 

20           tremendous.  I think we need to be thinking 

21           more and more about that in various ways.  I 

22           can't comment on the particular legislation, 

23           but that process of diversion, the intercept 

24           model, which looks at all the places where 


                                                                   62

 1           individuals with serious mental illness 

 2           intercept into the justice system.  And at 

 3           each point you can help with diversion, you 

 4           can do it pre-arraignment, post-arraignment, 

 5           there's all kinds of ways.  

 6                  But the services have to be set up.  

 7           So that kind of work that helps individuals 

 8           not get into incarceration, but get the 

 9           services they need in the community.  And we 

10           have done some of that work across the state 

11           with grants out of the SAMHSA funding that we 

12           get.  And they've been very successful.

13                  So yes, it's very important to come up 

14           with ways to intercept, in quotes, 

15           individuals entering the criminal justice 

16           system, and then to give them the services so 

17           they don't come back and they don't end up 

18           returning to the criminal justice system.  

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you, 

20           Commissioner.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN FERNANDEZ:  I agree.  

22           Thank you so much.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.


                                                                   63

 1                  Still not seeing Senator Tedisco, so 

 2           moving to Senator Savino.

 3                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you, Senator 

 4           Krueger.  Good to see you, Commissioner.

 5                  I want to go back to the discussion on 

 6           Kendra's Law.  I know a lot has been said 

 7           about it.  And I think you said it yourself:  

 8           When Kendra's Law works, it works.  But it 

 9           doesn't always work.  And in fact there's 

10           been a lot of discussion around how we amend 

11           it, how we improve it, how we extend it.

12                  And so I've been doing some work on 

13           that, speaking to providers, speaking to 

14           psychiatrists, speaking to the head of the 

15           New York City Health and Hospital 

16           Corporation, the head of Greater New York 

17           Hospital.  And there's a couple of things 

18           that have come to my attention.  One, of 

19           course, has been the disinvestment in 

20           hospital beds.  Over the past 10 years we've 

21           closed many psychiatric beds in the state 

22           system, and we disincentivized the public 

23           hospitals and we disincentivized the 

24           nonprofits because of the reimbursement rate 


                                                                   64

 1           for psychiatric beds.  

 2                  But what has come to my attention 

 3           clearly, after speaking to all of them, is 

 4           the flaw is in the definition under Mental 

 5           Hygiene Law that allows a hospital to retain 

 6           a patient.  Section 9.39 of the Mental 

 7           Hygiene Law says that a patient can be 

 8           retained if it can be proven by clear and 

 9           convincing evidence that the patient is 

10           mentally ill and in need of further care and 

11           treatment because they are a danger to 

12           themselves and others.  It's a deliberately 

13           vague statute that only applies at that time.  

14                  And so many people are brought into 

15           the emergency room or into a psychiatric 

16           emergency room, like that individual who 

17           pushed Michelle Go off the subway platform, 

18           because they are clearly a danger to 

19           themselves or other people.  But as it's been 

20           demonstrated to me in my discussions with 

21           providers, the minute that person either is 

22           provided with medication or with food or 

23           something else, they are no longer in that 

24           state and they cannot be retained, but they 


                                                                   65

 1           clearly need hospitalization.  

 2                  So would you support changing the 

 3           definition of what makes someone a danger to 

 4           themselves or others to expand it to them 

 5           being a danger because their mental illness 

 6           makes them incapable of taking care of 

 7           themselves, tending to their ability to 

 8           obtain food, clothing, shelter, taking their 

 9           medicine, so that they could get the 

10           necessary mental health services they need to 

11           stabilize them?

12                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.

13                  You know, there's been a lot of 

14           discussion about commitment law.  And I think 

15           that you have to be very, very cautious --

16                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Absolutely.

17                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  -- with 

18           commitment law, and very, very careful. 

19                  I do think there is part of a current 

20           statute, which is the 9.27, which allows for 

21           a two-physician certificate.  And that 

22           two-physician certificate for involuntary 

23           treatment is not as immediate and as 

24           stringent as what is described in the 9.39 


                                                                   66

 1           emergency admission criteria.  It has not 

 2           been used, in my view, as well as it could be 

 3           for many of the individuals that you're kind 

 4           of describing.  It talks to substantial harm, 

 5           but it doesn't talk to immediacy.  

 6                  And I think one of the things that we 

 7           are in the process of doing is working with 

 8           emergency rooms and others to begin to think 

 9           about using that statute.  

10                  Expanding the statute -- I know 

11           there's a lot of discussion about it.  I 

12           think it has to be very, very thoughtful and 

13           careful because of expanding the issue of 

14           civil rights, which I know you appreciate.  I 

15           know you do.  But this particular -- there 

16           are ways, I believe, within -- and also in 

17           case law there is case law of a couple of 

18           cases, one was Billie Boggs and one was Larry 

19           Hogue, which did allow looking at history as 

20           a reason for committing someone for a stay in 

21           a psychiatric hospital.  And that has not 

22           been utilized as much as I think it could be.

23                  So I think that education is something 

24           that we are definitely going to be working on 


                                                                   67

 1           with our providers across the system.

 2                  SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you.  My time 

 3           is up, but I would love to follow up with you 

 4           on this, Commissioner.

 5                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.  

 6           Thank you, Senator Savino.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 8                  Assembly.  

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

10           Assemblywoman Barrett, three minutes.

11                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BARRETT:  Thank you, 

12           Chairs.  

13                  And thank you, Commissioner.  Thank 

14           you for being here.  

15                  And as the chair of the Assembly's 

16           Committee on Veterans Services, I too want to 

17           say how grateful we are to the Governor, and 

18           I'm sure your influence, to include Dwyer in 

19           the budget and the increase in the amount of 

20           money to really expand this to -- across the 

21           state.  And I know we're requesting some 

22           money as well for programs that will help 

23           take those who are training to work in Dwyer 

24           to the next level.  So hopefully, you know, 


                                                                   68

 1           we'll be able to expand that program.  

 2                  I have two questions, and I'm going 

 3           to, you know, just ask them and then let you 

 4           answer.

 5                  One is -- the most important for me is 

 6           really what are we doing to ensure workforce 

 7           for our rural communities.  I mean, every 

 8           meeting I have with people, whether it's 

 9           school districts or businesses or everything, 

10           we're talking about mental health as just a 

11           crisis-level challenge.  But as one of the 

12           doctors I spoke to from -- I think it was 

13           Westchester said, everybody is asking for 

14           a -- particularly, in this case, children, a 

15           pediatric psychiatrist, but no one's ever 

16           seen one.  And, I mean, I think that's 

17           really -- you know, that sort of captures 

18           what's going on.  We don't have pediatric 

19           beds at all in the two counties that I 

20           represent.  There's a shortage of workforce.  

21           If you want to bring in experts into the 

22           school system or if you want to offer even, 

23           you know, therapy, there aren't therapists 

24           around.  


                                                                   69

 1                  So how are we -- what in the budget 

 2           are you doing to ensure that we have a -- you 

 3           know, a pipeline, or at least a plan, to 

 4           start offering and being able to serve the 

 5           people in districts like mine?  

 6                  And then the other question -- I'm 

 7           sorry, quickly -- is also where do we stand 

 8           with that merger of the two -- of your office 

 9           and OASAS?  I know that came up last year, 

10           and I didn't know if that was still in the 

11           works.

12                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Okay, 

13           thanks.

14                  First, on the rural side, I think 

15           there's two things.  One is the expansion of 

16           telehealth, which I think can be extremely 

17           helpful in this area.  It's not the total 

18           solution, but I think it can be extremely 

19           helpful and will enable a lot of work in both 

20           schools and also connections between, for 

21           example, as you say, pediatric psychiatrists 

22           to be able to do consultations with general 

23           psychiatrists, to also do the work themselves 

24           through telehealth, et cetera.  


                                                                   70

 1                  We're in the process of expanding that 

 2           significantly.  And --

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BARRETT:  Well, we have 

 4           to do that with expanding broadband, because 

 5           we don't necessarily have that effectively.  

 6                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes.  Yes.  

 7           It has to have the broadband and the 

 8           telehealth, but also telephonic is also 

 9           something which has been paid for with 

10           Medicaid in the budget.  That's in there.  

11           The telephonic care would be paid for.  

12                  Now, they can't -- you have to have an 

13           initial assessment, but after that telephone 

14           care as well as telehealth like this.  So 

15           that's one big thing.

16                  The other is we are doing this 

17           outreach and recruitment.  And one of the 

18           issues for individuals who would take a small 

19           stipend in order to go into mental health -- 

20           and we're working -- that's across the state.  

21           That's statewide.  So those stipends will be 

22           available with colleges and universities as 

23           we go up through the state, and those 

24           stipends are to work then in the mental 


                                                                   71

 1           health field for more than two years 

 2           afterwards, depending upon the stipend.  And 

 3           we hope that will encourage people to work in 

 4           the mental health field, get to like rural 

 5           areas, et cetera.  

 6                  So I think there's a number of things 

 7           that we're doing in the rural area.

 8                  On the merger issue, at this point in 

 9           time that is not something that's being 

10           considered.

11                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN BARRETT:  Thank you.  

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Back to the 

13           Senate.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

15                  Senator Tedisco, are you back there 

16           with us?  You have your camera off, so I'm 

17           just double-checking.  No?  

18                  I'm going to move on to Senator 

19           Hinchey.

20                  SENATOR HINCHEY:  Thank you, Chair.  

21                  And Commissioner, it's great to see 

22           you.  Thank you.

23                  I echo some of the sentiments of 

24           Assemblymember Barrett, especially on the 


                                                                   72

 1           telehealth piece.  So I hope we can all work 

 2           together on that.

 3                  And also Senator Savino touched on one 

 4           of my questions.  As you know, we lost all of 

 5           our mental health beds in the City of 

 6           Kingston under the guise of COVID surge.  

 7           Those beds moved multiple hours away for the 

 8           people who used those services.  And we know 

 9           that we are not the only community that is 

10           facing this.  

11                  So my question is twofold.  One, what 

12           is your plan to make sure those beds come 

13           back?  Because right now there is no plan.  

14           The hospital has removed them entirely, 

15           they've shifted them.  Under their 

16           Certificate of Need, they are supposed to 

17           have them.  So what is the plan from the 

18           state to make those beds come back?  

19                  And then additionally, we know that 

20           those beds moved because of the low 

21           reimbursement rates.  And so I know we're 

22           having conversations generally about Medicaid 

23           reimbursement rates, but have you 

24           specifically asked the Governor for -- or us, 


                                                                   73

 1           for that matter -- for increased 

 2           reimbursement rates for mental health 

 3           services?

 4                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes, 

 5           across the state there have been hundreds of 

 6           beds that closed due to COVID or migrated due 

 7           to COVID, and we're looking at every one 

 8           carefully.  And even in the specific instance 

 9           you're talking about, we will not approve 

10           beds changing or moving -- nothing has come 

11           forward for our approval unless we're 

12           absolutely sure that the community still gets 

13           the services they need.  So I know that 

14           there's still negotiations about those 

15           particular beds.

16                  But across the state, yes, with COVID 

17           numbers of beds were closed.  We are looking 

18           to reopen all those beds.  And if they are 

19           not to be reopened, then exactly what are the 

20           communities proposing in terms of providing 

21           the services that could make the difference?  

22           And we are really pushing to make sure those 

23           beds come back online.  

24                  You're absolutely right that the 


                                                                   74

 1           reimbursement is one of the issues.  A couple 

 2           of years ago we significantly reimbursed 

 3           child beds so that their rates went up about 

 4           25 percent.  As of August of '21, there was a 

 5           10 percent increase to the rates for the 

 6           psych beds, psychiatrist adult beds across 

 7           the state.  On Medicaid, I'm talking about 

 8           Medicaid increase.  Medicaid is the primary 

 9           payer for a lot of the psych beds.  So a 

10           10 percent increase.  So that's there.

11                  And we're also working with the 

12           commercial insurers to pay a parity for 

13           mental health services, to make sure that 

14           they are paying similarly for mental health 

15           inpatient -- this is for commercial 

16           insurance.  So yes, there is an issue with 

17           rates, and we are working very hard to make 

18           sure that those rates are adequate to make 

19           sure that we can reimburse for the services 

20           that are so needed.

21                  SENATOR HINCHEY:  Just to say, in my 

22           last 20 seconds, it should not be on the 

23           community to figure out how to backfill the 

24           beds.  Right?  Like we have to get these 


                                                                   75

 1           hospitals to bring them back.  It should not 

 2           be how is the community going to then fill 

 3           those services.  Which is maybe not what you 

 4           meant to say, but it sounded like what you 

 5           said.  

 6                  So I look forward to communicating 

 7           with you further on that.  Because again, we 

 8           know also the mental health reimbursement 

 9           rates were significantly lower than any 

10           other -- outside of detox, significantly 

11           lower than any other reimbursement rates as 

12           well.  So thank you.  

13                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  

14           Absolutely.  No, it's not up to the 

15           community, absolutely not.  What I meant was 

16           that sometimes community-based services can 

17           be established that sometimes -- I'm not 

18           saying in your instance -- sometimes can have 

19           an impact that would allow perhaps a lowering 

20           of beds.  We always have to consider that 

21           when we look at community services versus 

22           beds.  But no, it's not up to the community  

23           to make those services real, that's up to us.

24                  SENATOR HINCHEY:  Thank you.  


                                                                   76

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 2                  Assembly.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman 

 4           Burdick.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you.  

 6                  And thank you, Dr. Sullivan.  

 7                  I have a few questions regarding OMH 

 8           services in cooperation with DOCCS.  And you 

 9           had provided testimony in September 2020 in a 

10           State Senate hearing, and I'd appreciate a 

11           brief update on those services, the caseload, 

12           suicide prevention, use of telepsychiatry and 

13           additional ways to use technology, and, you 

14           know, just generally the challenges your 

15           office is facing and how you're dealing with 

16           them -- and would greatly appreciate a 

17           written update, if that might be possible.

18                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes, 

19           surely.  We'll be glad to give you a written 

20           update.

21                  In terms of working with DOCCS, I 

22           think the working relationship is very good.  

23                  I just want to say a couple of things 

24           you brought up -- one was suicide prevention.  


                                                                   77

 1           We have, in the past year, now we have the -- 

 2           maybe two years -- the director of suicide 

 3           prevention in DOCCS, which works with us.  

 4           That has been very, very helpful in terms of 

 5           looking at the issues that the inmates face 

 6           in terms of the stress that can lead to 

 7           making suicide attempts and, sadly, some lost 

 8           by suicide.  

 9                  So basically that director helps.  We 

10           have also got a peer-to-peer program, which 

11           is now in three -- I believe it's three 

12           prisons.  That's inmates who work with 

13           individuals who have made suicide attempts.  

14           When they leave the intensive service they're 

15           in and go back to general population.  And we 

16           have been putting that forward.  We also do a 

17           lot of work with -- it's a model that was in 

18           Rhode Island which was very successful with 

19           inmates, and it's now in three of our 

20           prisons.

21                  And we also do a lot of work with our 

22           staff and with DOCCS on training to recognize 

23           the issues, signs and symptoms that could 

24           bring someone issues with being at risk for 


                                                                   78

 1           suicide, suicide attempts.  One is 

 2           transitions.  When inmates move from one 

 3           place to the other, we know it's a risky 

 4           time.  And also changes at home.  Things that 

 5           are happening outside of the prison can also 

 6           be a risky time.  So that's some of the work 

 7           that is going on.

 8                  In terms of the general services, we 

 9           also have our discharge units, which are 

10           working very well at helping individuals who 

11           have serious mental illness get ready for 

12           leaving.  About three to five months before 

13           they leave, they're in those units to help 

14           them get ready to transition back into the 

15           general population.  And we do extensive 

16           discharge planning and case management for 

17           those individuals when they leave.

18                  And the --

19                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  And what's the 

20           caseload, if I might ask?  

21                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  The 

22           caseload right now is 8,000 individuals.  Of 

23           those 8,000, about 20 percent -- I mean, I'm 

24           sorry, 9 percent of the 8,000 -- 10 percent 


                                                                   79

 1           of the 8,000 are seriously mentally ill.  But 

 2           8,000 is the total caseload at this point in 

 3           time.  I believe about 30,000 inmates, but I 

 4           might not have that number right.

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Yeah, so that's 

 6           a fairly high percentage of those 

 7           incarcerated.

 8                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes.  Yes.  

 9           It's about 20 percent, yup.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you.  And 

11           if it's possible to provide a written update, 

12           that would be super.

13                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes, 

14           definitely we will.  Thank you.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you very 

16           much.

17                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  To the Senate.  

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

20                  And Commissioner, whenever any 

21           individual member asks you for materials in 

22           writing, we -- Helene and I -- ask you to 

23           send them to us as well so we can make that 

24           available to everybody.  So thank you to 


                                                                   80

 1           Assemblymember Burdick, but we'll try to get 

 2           it for everyone as well.  Thank you.

 3                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Next, I still 

 5           don't see Senator Tedisco back, so I'm going 

 6           to go to Senator Sue Serino.

 7                  (Pause.)

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  We're not hearing 

 9           you, Sue, for some reason.  (Pause.)  No, 

10           we're still not hearing you.  I'm so sorry.  

11                  There you go.

12                  SENATOR SERINO:  Can you hear me now?

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Now I can.

14                  SENATOR SERINO:  I'm so sorry about 

15           that.

16                  So recently I had a meeting with Astor 

17           that has a parents' group that meets once a 

18           month, you know, for support and, to tell you 

19           the truth, out of frustration.  Right?  So 

20           these parents feel like they're hitting a 

21           wall on the mental health front where, yes, 

22           they can access certain services through 

23           their schools during the day but feel like 

24           they really hit a wall after school hours.  


                                                                   81

 1                  Like for example, the kids are doing 

 2           well in school, they're assessed, and then at 

 3           home they have a mental health crisis and the 

 4           parents are, like, now what?  

 5                  And yes, like I'm very fortunate to 

 6           have a community that really makes mental 

 7           health a priority.  So we have our 

 8           stabilization center where they can go for 

 9           something immediately.  But that's not a 

10           long-term solution.  You know, after that 

11           they've gotten nowhere left to turn, they 

12           have to jump through hoops and tons of 

13           paperwork before they can even get anywhere.  

14                  So just wondering, what do you say to 

15           these parents about what's in the budget to 

16           tangibly like bolster those services and cut 

17           through that red tape when people need to 

18           access these services?

19                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes, thank 

20           you.  And yes, I think you're right that 

21           basically sometimes it's been way too 

22           bureaucratic to get the kinds of services you 

23           need.

24                  What we're dealing with now is we're 


                                                                   82

 1           going to be significantly increasing the 

 2           intensive services that families may need.  

 3           One, as we mentioned before, is the 

 4           home-based crisis work, which will double the 

 5           number of families from 1300 to 2600.  We're 

 6           also going to be opening 20 ACT teams, ACT 

 7           teams for youth.  

 8                  This is new.  We have always had 

 9           Assertive Community Treatment teams for 

10           adults, but not for youth.  These are 20 

11           teams across the state.  They all have a 

12           caseload of about 48 each, so that's a 

13           significant influx of services.  

14                  ACT teams work with the family in the 

15           home and also in the community, wherever it 

16           works.  So it's much more accessible, and for 

17           families in crisis it will be much better 

18           able to serve those families.  

19                  And your crisis stabilization center 

20           which you have is something else that we will 

21           be increasing, and we're also going to be 

22           increasing mobile crisis outreach with an 

23           emphasis on the mobile crisis teams being 

24           able to serve families and youth as well.


                                                                   83

 1                  So that's for the high-end services.  

 2           On the other end, we have been greatly 

 3           expanding the intensive outpatient services 

 4           in our clinic system.  We have money in the 

 5           budget to start those up and to expand those 

 6           across the state.  That enables someone, for 

 7           example, who comes to the stabilization 

 8           center to then transition to a local clinic 

 9           system with intensive services at the 

10           beginning, where someone can see both the 

11           social worker, the psychiatrist, the nurse, 

12           the psychologist all in the same day, and 

13           that team can then work with that individual 

14           and also make home visits if necessary.  

15                  So we are building the continuum to 

16           make it easier and more seamless for our 

17           families, because I know there have been 

18           problems in the past.

19                  SENATOR SERINO:  And I'd like to 

20           follow up in conversations with you about 

21           that as well.  

22                  But I know my colleagues have talked 

23           about the number of beds, right, for mental 

24           health.  For me, it's about the youth, too.  


                                                                   84

 1           Right?  We have such a problem, you know, in 

 2           all of our communities.  But my local 

 3           community has been asking for quite some 

 4           time -- I recently sent a letter to the 

 5           Governor asking for funding to support the 

 6           creation of the additional beds, especially 

 7           for youth.  And I haven't yet received a 

 8           response.  

 9                  Like our kids right now, they'll go to 

10           the fifth floor of our hospital, they're 

11           mixed in with adults, and it's just -- it's 

12           not -- it's not a place where kids need to 

13           be.  They need to have this care and these 

14           beds.  So what can you tell me about that, 

15           Commissioner?  

16                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yeah, 

17           we'll be glad to work with you and the local 

18           providers to see what's possible.

19                  As I said, we significantly increased 

20           the rates for youth beds, and we have had 

21           some communities come forward recently to say 

22           they're interested in opening some youth 

23           beds.  So I'd be glad to talk with you, 

24           Senator Serino, about that.


                                                                   85

 1                  SENATOR SERINO:  Thank you.  

 2                  And I don't know if I'm out of time 

 3           yet, but I'd also like to have a conversation 

 4           with you about what's in the budget to 

 5           incentivize New Yorkers to actually enter 

 6           into a career for mental health.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  You don't have 

 8           time to answer that because she is out of 

 9           time.  So keep that on your assignment list.

10                  SENATOR SERINO:  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

12                  Assembly.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

14           Kelles, three minutes.

15                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Good morning, 

16           Commissioner.  Thank you so much, and really, 

17           truly thank you for one of the most important 

18           services right now, in particular, for the 

19           state. 

20                  I just had a few questions.  One, you 

21           mentioned earlier there are block grants, 

22           rate increases, FMAP dollars going to 

23           providers.  Are there any requirements for a 

24           percentage of those funds to go directly to 


                                                                   86

 1           employees?

 2                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  It is 

 3           expected, yes.  The providers -- the money is 

 4           going to the providers, but the providers 

 5           have to get a plan back to us.  And it is 

 6           expected that a number of those things that 

 7           are flowing will go to the employees.  

 8           They're going to have to report to us how 

 9           they did that.  They're also --

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  It's not 

11           required but they -- they will be --

12                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, no, 

13           it is -- yes, it's required.  It's basically 

14           required.  Yes, it is.

15                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Okay.  Thank 

16           you.  

17                  And you mentioned -- a lot of people 

18           have asked you about the youth mental health 

19           services.  Of course the national Surgeon 

20           General's report that came out -- pretty 

21           severe, I think.  The estimate, for example, 

22           for teenage girls' increase in suicide 

23           attempts was an increase of 51 percent.  And 

24           we had a crisis already going into this.


                                                                   87

 1                  I have, in my district, some schools 

 2           that only get a provider a couple -- one to 

 3           two times a month, even though some children 

 4           have been assessed and they're supposed to be 

 5           getting it like once a week.  

 6                  I saw there's $10 million to school 

 7           systems, but not specifically allocated any 

 8           funding for an increase in providers, mental 

 9           health providers in schools.  There have been 

10           some estimates that it would be about 

11           $80 million to have a provider in every 

12           school.  I'm wondering, you know, what 

13           percentage of this is expected to go to 

14           mental health service providers to increase 

15           that, and what you're seeing as the need.

16                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  A fair 

17           amount of that 10 million will go to expand 

18           school-based clinics.  When you put up a 

19           school-based clinic it's actually done with a 

20           provider in the community who then puts some 

21           of their staff as a satellite clinic, a 

22           satellite clinic in the school.  And they can 

23           then bill for services.  So basically you're 

24           not -- the reimbursement comes from Medicaid 


                                                                   88

 1           and also some commercial payers, who then pay 

 2           for the school-based services.

 3                  So a good part of that 10 million is 

 4           going to be the expansion of our clinics.  We 

 5           have, across the state now, in schools a 

 6           thousand school-based clinics.  We need to 

 7           get more of those out there into the schools.  

 8           This is start dollars that will enable people 

 9           to start to build those clinics.  That's one 

10           piece of the puzzle.  And --

11                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Let me ask you 

12           one other really, really quickly. 

13                  So one of the things that we've talked 

14           about is the need of students outside of the 

15           schools and getting them on-boarded.  What do 

16           you think of creating a state offering of 

17           telehealth, at least a couple of appointments 

18           that they can get assessed and do crisis 

19           management, suicide prevention, to get them 

20           on-boarded into systems?

21                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  That's 

22           great.  That's great.  There's no reason that 

23           that can't be done.  And I think that's an 

24           encouraging -- that's something we need to 


                                                                   89

 1           encourage our clinics to do more of.

 2                  Sure, you can start treatment now by 

 3           tele.  You do not have to have an in-person 

 4           visit for Medicaid.  You still need one 

 5           in-person visit for Medicare, but not for 

 6           Medicaid.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  And what about 

 8           being offered by the state?

 9                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, we 

10           do it through -- you mean being offered -- we 

11           do it with reimbursement from the insurers.  

12           Partly we do that because that's their job, 

13           to be paying for mental health care in that 

14           realm.  And it's important that they be part 

15           of the expenditure for this.  And it's 

16           billable, it's totally billable.

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Thank you.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay, thank you.  

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  The Senate.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Sorry.  Thank 

21           you.  

22                  Next is Senator Tom O'Mara.

23                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Thank you, 

24           Chairwoman.  Thank you, Commissioner --


                                                                   90

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Our ranker, for 

 2           five minutes, please.  Sorry.  Sorry, Tom.  

 3                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Yeah.  Thank you, 

 4           Commissioner.  Good morning.  

 5                  You mentioned earlier that there's no 

 6           longer discussions of the merger of OASAS 

 7           with Mental Health.  Can you let us know what 

 8           efforts are underway to deal with the 

 9           dual-diagnosis issues that are prevalent in 

10           our communities?

11                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yeah, 

12           we're working very, very closely with 

13           Dr. Cunningham in OASAS on a couple of major 

14           initiatives.  One is our crisis stabilization 

15           centers, which are coming up on being dually 

16           established, dually developed by both of us, 

17           with full capacity to treat both substance 

18           use and mental health and all the crossovers.

19                  Our CCBHCs, which are Certified 

20           Community Behavioral Health Centers, by them 

21           being designated as such, must have 

22           integrated care and have done a really great 

23           job at integrating substance use.  We have 

24           13 of those sites and an additional 20 that 


                                                                   91

 1           have some funding from the federal 

 2           government.  All those are required to do 

 3           integrated care.

 4                  We recently did a collaborative with 

 5           us, OASAS and emergency rooms across the 

 6           state that involved a hundred of our medical 

 7           emergency rooms, on how to deal with crises 

 8           that come in, whether it's an overdose or a 

 9           suicide attempt or a sort of violence.  And 

10           we're working together with OASAS with all 

11           those emergency rooms on the standards that 

12           should be utilized for care.

13                  So there's a lot of collaboration 

14           going on between the agencies at the level of 

15           actually providing care, and we're going to 

16           continue to work to grow that.  Even if we're 

17           separate agencies.

18                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Well, thank you for 

19           that.  And I encourage you to continue that, 

20           because that's a significant issue in our 

21           communities, I think both rural, suburban and 

22           urban as well.

23                  You know, as you know, our jails, our 

24           local jails had been kind of a last-resort 


                                                                   92

 1           provider of mental health services to many 

 2           incarcerated individuals in the community.  

 3           And now, with no bail, those individuals are 

 4           not getting incarcerated.  And I'm not 

 5           suggesting that the jails should be used for 

 6           mental health treatment, but that's in fact 

 7           what they've been doing for many years with 

 8           the lack of services in the community.

 9                  So now we have this revolving door, 

10           you know, to -- the citizens of my 

11           communities, it makes no difference to them 

12           whether they're victimized by a bad guy or a 

13           mentally ill person.  You know, we need to 

14           have better services to stop these 

15           individuals from just being a revolving door 

16           in our criminal justice system and risking 

17           the safety of our communities.

18                  What's being done about that?

19                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I think 

20           one -- there's two things.  One I think is 

21           working with individuals who are brought into 

22           the criminal justice system.  It's that 

23           diversion point.  

24                  And there's a number of programs that 


                                                                   93

 1           we have established across the state in 

 2           various jurisdictions to have mental health 

 3           workers there, whether it's -- sometimes it's 

 4           pre-arraignment, sometimes it's 

 5           post-arraignment, sometimes it's a discharge 

 6           from jail, to work with individuals.  And I 

 7           think that's something that we absolutely 

 8           have to continue to grow.  

 9                  Bail reform has meant, yes, that less 

10           people are being actually in the jail.  So at 

11           the point where they are seen by the judge, 

12           there needs to be people there to work with 

13           individuals, that can easily connect with 

14           that individual, to work with them to enable 

15           them to get into the services that they need.

16                  So it's a little bit different.  And 

17           we have been setting these up in various 

18           communities across the state, and we'll have 

19           to continue to grow that.  It's very 

20           important to capture people when you can get 

21           to them.

22                  SENATOR O'MARA:  Yeah, exactly.  I 

23           agree wholeheartedly with that.  And 

24           unfortunately, that is what our jails were 


                                                                   94

 1           doing for a long period of time.  

 2                  I'm not so sure that just a judge 

 3           telling somebody, you know, you're not 

 4           setting bail but you've got to go to this 

 5           outpatient clinic or treatment, is going to 

 6           be the answer.  Because a lot of these 

 7           individuals just aren't going to show up.  

 8           And they're going to end up right back in 

 9           front of another judge on a different charge.

10                  So, you know, we're really lacking in 

11           inpatient options for judges, or just the 

12           community in general, because the beds have 

13           been cut back so much, particularly in our 

14           rural areas, when it takes an hour and a half 

15           or two hours to get to a treatment facility.  

16                  So we really need to ramp up our 

17           efforts on inpatient options for everybody.  

18           I'm not just talking about those that commit 

19           crimes, but for everybody with significant 

20           mental illnesses that need that because 

21           they're not compliant with their medications 

22           or their treatment protocols.

23                  But thank you very much.

24                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.


                                                                   95

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 2                  Back to you, Assembly.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We've been 

 4           joined by our chair of the Disabilities 

 5           Committee, Assemblyman Abinanti.  

 6                  But we go first to Assemblywoman 

 7           Miller for three minutes.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Thank you.  

 9                  Good morning, Commissioner.  Nice to 

10           see you again.

11                  I have two questions.  I'll try and be 

12           quick so that maybe you can answer.  But if 

13           not, you know, please send in writing if 

14           there's anything that you don't get to 

15           answer.

16                  My first, has SED or the Governor, the 

17           Governor's office, asked you for any data on 

18           the impact of the pandemic on school-age 

19           children on their mental health, specifically 

20           remote learning and masking?

21                  My second question is basically we all 

22           agree, I've heard it again and again, that we 

23           need mental health services, a big, you know, 

24           increase in mental health services for our 


                                                                   96

 1           frontline workers.  But I feel like talking 

 2           about it and actually putting it into place 

 3           are two very different things.  

 4                  Is there any way that we can urgently, 

 5           now, put in some supports for those frontline 

 6           workers, whether it be within hospital 

 7           systems or in the community?  So many of 

 8           these frontline workers are literally on the 

 9           verge of burnout, have already collapsed or 

10           are suffering from PTSD.  And we're doing a 

11           lot of talking about they need those 

12           supports, but they're not available yet in 

13           many of these instances.

14                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, 

15           first of all, on the frontline workers, we do 

16           have available New York Project Hope.  And 

17           New York Project Hope will provide -- all you 

18           have to do is call, it's immediately 

19           available -- will provide up to five crisis 

20           counseling sessions with someone to deal with 

21           the impact of the pandemic, trauma, loss, 

22           et cetera.  And then --

23                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Are they 

24           through telehealth or in-person?  


                                                                   97

 1                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  It can be 

 2           both.  We are doing both.  We are doing both 

 3           tele, phone and in-person.  

 4                  So we have about 600 counselors across 

 5           the state who are available for this, and we 

 6           can connect people through New York Project 

 7           Hope to that immediate connection for 

 8           counseling.  

 9                  Now, if someone after that needs more 

10           intensive mental health, they will then be 

11           referred by that counselor, for someone who 

12           needs more.  But that's really right there 

13           and available, and that's been one of the 

14           most effective outreaches that we have had 

15           during this pandemic.

16                  On your other question, it just 

17           slipped my mind.

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Has SED or the 

19           Governor's office reached out to you for 

20           data?  

21                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  We have a 

22           number of meetings that we talk about these 

23           things.  The data is still not entirely clear 

24           what's out there about the impact, for 


                                                                   98

 1           example, of masks, et cetera.  There are 

 2           things being written, but I think we're still 

 3           waiting for some good studies that will tell 

 4           us what the impact is.  I mean, we're all 

 5           assuming there's an impact because it seems 

 6           like there would be.  But to get the really 

 7           good data, I think we're still waiting for 

 8           those studies to come from people who 

 9           normally do that.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  What would you 

11           consider really good data?  Like a really 

12           good study, what would that --

13                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, you 

14           want academics to go in and look at what -- 

15           get information from kids, but then also 

16           track their performance and link it to what 

17           the youth are saying and what the families 

18           are seeing.  So you'd like to see, for 

19           example -- 

20                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  And that's not 

21           being done yet or it's just not --

22                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  It's being 

23           done.  It's being done.  We don't have the 

24           results of it yet.  It's being done.  There's 


                                                                   99

 1           a number of people doing it from the various 

 2           universities across the country.  We just 

 3           don't have good results yet to know.  I mean, 

 4           we're all supposing there's going to be a 

 5           significant impact, but we don't know.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Thank you.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

 9                  Hi.  I think I'm up next for the 

10           Senate, Commissioner Sullivan.  

11                  And obviously many people have raised 

12           Kendra's Law, and I think there is real 

13           debate about whether Kendra's Law needs to be 

14           fixed or it's just not being used correctly.  

15           But I want to highlight that we can have that 

16           debate, but unless we actually have beds for 

17           people to go to when they are diagnosed as 

18           needing to be in a psychiatric institution, 

19           it doesn't matter.  

20                  And I just want to highlight -- I know 

21           other people have raised this with other 

22           examples, but apparently since 2018 New York 

23           City alone has 900 fewer psychiatric 

24           inpatient beds than we did in 2012.  And we 


                                                                   100

 1           know that in the last two and a half years, 

 2           because of COVID, that number has reduced in 

 3           the private and the public hospitals because 

 4           we know the hospitals are saying -- 

 5           literally -- We can't take you here, we have 

 6           lots of sick people.

 7                  And so what are we going to do to 

 8           increase the number of psychiatric inpatient 

 9           bed options that we have?  Because if we 

10           don't have that, it doesn't matter what we're 

11           talking about with laws.

12                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I think 

13           the first step is to reopen the beds that 

14           were closed during COVID.  

15                  Two years back, we lost 400 beds that 

16           came offline that were active beds.  You 

17           know, counting the number of beds is always a 

18           little tricky, because sometimes they're down 

19           for construction, et cetera.  But due to 

20           COVID, we lost a significant number of active 

21           psychiatric beds across the state, in both 

22           New York City and upstate.  We need to get 

23           those beds reopened.  

24                  And I think that that's where -- now, 


                                                                   101

 1           part of it is we're still dealing with COVID, 

 2           so that's still putting some stress on the 

 3           hospitals.  But we do have concerns that the 

 4           hospitals put back up those beds that were 

 5           there, and they are in the hundreds that are 

 6           down because of COVID.  It's critical, I 

 7           absolutely agree with you, that those beds 

 8           come back up and that they are available for 

 9           individuals.  So yes, we need to.

10                  Now, many of the hospitals are saying 

11           they will be putting them back up, but the 

12           time lag has been significant.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  So I was told, 

14           because I was chatting with them the other 

15           day, that the psychiatric state hospital 

16           beds, at least in New York City, the space is 

17           there but they don't have the staff to 

18           reopen.  Is the state committing to helping 

19           reopen those beds?

20                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  We're -- 

21           we -- yes.  The complement that we've had, we 

22           will continue to have.  

23                  In fairness to the other hospitals, 

24           too, it's a staffing issue.  Across many of 


                                                                   102

 1           the hospitals, it's getting staff.  But yes, 

 2           we have -- the complement of beds that we 

 3           have are open.  

 4                  You know, New York City in four years, 

 5           from -- going back four years, only 24 beds 

 6           were lost in the state system.  And they were 

 7           lost because of construction, because we got 

 8           a new South Beach and we had less 

 9           availability.  We have over a thousand beds 

10           in New York City, just for New York City, on 

11           the state system.  And that number will 

12           continue.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  So I don't 

14           know that anybody has brought this up yet 

15           today, but according to the State Department 

16           of Health, there are 92,000 individuals in 

17           New York State who are evaluated and eligible 

18           for the program called HARPs, which is 

19           intensive Medicaid managed care for people 

20           with serious and persistent mental illness, 

21           but only 2.3 percent of this population is 

22           enrolled in HARPs.  

23                  Can you talk to me about that and 

24           what's been going wrong and whether you agree 


                                                                   103

 1           that getting people signed up for this 

 2           program would address much of the concern 

 3           that we're seeing out there today?   Any of 

 4           the concern?  

 5                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I'm just 

 6           not sure about those numbers.  We do have 

 7           over 140,000 members in the HARP that are 

 8           eligible.  A number of individuals -- the 

 9           eligibility for health home of the members in 

10           the HARP is very low.  I mean, the number of 

11           people enrolled in health homes.  So I'm not 

12           sure about that number.

13                  Getting people enrolled in HARP has 

14           not been as much an issue as making sure they 

15           get the services that they needed once they 

16           were enrolled in the HARP.  That includes 

17           things like health homes, making sure that 

18           for the very high end individuals who need a 

19           lot of support, that they get the kind of 

20           intensive services that they need.  And when 

21           we talk about wrapping very intensive 

22           community services around the very seriously 

23           ill individuals in the HARP, the managed care 

24           companies have not always been great partners 


                                                                   104

 1           with us in making sure that that happens.  

 2                  So there is an issue with getting the 

 3           appropriate -- making sure that especially 

 4           the high-need end of individuals in the HARPs 

 5           get what they need.  I don't know that the 

 6           enrollment per se is the problem, it's 

 7           getting the services for the individuals in 

 8           the HARP.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And which state 

10           agency is responsible for contracting with 

11           that kind of specialized managed care program 

12           and getting the match made?

13                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, we 

14           work closely -- technically, DOH is -- the 

15           Department of Health is overall responsible, 

16           but we work extremely closely with them.  And 

17           this is one of the reasons that DOH is 

18           looking for a reprocurement of managed care.  

19           I mean, it's one of the issues in terms of 

20           their looking for reprocurement, is to be 

21           able to better serve certain populations, and 

22           one of those is the seriously mentally ill.

23                  I think that the managed-care plans 

24           have done not so badly with certain 


                                                                   105

 1           populations.  But with the seriously mentally 

 2           ill, that's a serious issue from our point of 

 3           view, and that's part of the procurement 

 4           issue that's going on now.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Are there any 

 6           providers who you think are doing a stellar 

 7           job with this at this point?  

 8                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I think 

 9           there are pockets of a little bit better, but 

10           we issued 150 citations to managed-care 

11           companies based on parity and difficulties 

12           with paying claims, et cetera.  So, you know, 

13           it's pretty much across the board, although 

14           some probably do a bit better.  We had to 

15           carve out companies that were particularly 

16           problematic, and some of the managed-care 

17           companies have let those carve-out companies 

18           go.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And would you 

20           make the case that for the severely mentally 

21           ill, turning over responsibility to 

22           managed-care providers has not proved to be a 

23           successful model and we should look at an 

24           alternative?


                                                                   106

 1                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I think 

 2           the question here is being able to work 

 3           effectively with the managed-care companies.  

 4           And there's just so many in New York State.  

 5           So I don't know that we need another model.  

 6           I think we need solid protocols and 

 7           procurement that could make sure that the 

 8           seriously mentally ill get what they need in 

 9           managed care.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  So the Governor 

11           recently announced, with you and with several 

12           of my colleagues, the proposal to expand a 

13           model and open 12 sites, I believe within the 

14           next five years, that are, I guess, 24-hour 

15           respite sites for people with mental illness.  

16                  And I read the press release and I 

17           thought, Well, that's not going to work, with 

18           all due respect.  Twenty-four hours is what 

19           you can get someone now in an ER, but they 

20           never get help in the 24-hour period.  And 

21           then some of my colleagues said, No, no, no, 

22           this is a very good model, Dutchess County 

23           has a terrific model for this.  But then I 

24           went looking and I learned it's not for the 


                                                                   107

 1           homeless, it's a different population.

 2                  So what are we doing for the homeless 

 3           mentally ill?  Because that's, I think, what 

 4           at least in the City of New York people are 

 5           really in a panic about at this time, that 

 6           there is a small percentage of mentally ill 

 7           people who act out, particularly if they're 

 8           homeless with no services, no anything, and 

 9           they act out violently and they become the 

10           newspaper headline pretty much every third 

11           day in the New York City newspapers at this 

12           time.

13                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  In the 

14           budget are the Safe Options Support teams.  

15           And I think you'll probably say to me, Well, 

16           you've always had outreach teams.  The 

17           difference with these teams is that they're 

18           not just doing outreach, they will work with 

19           that client.  Once they begin to work with 

20           them in the subway, they will stay with them.  

21           If they move into an emergency room, they 

22           will stay with them.  If they get 

23           hospitalized, they will stay with them.  If 

24           they move into housing.  They become the kind 


                                                                   108

 1           of glue that works with them and engages 

 2           them.

 3                  The biggest problem is real engagement 

 4           of these individuals.  And when you hand them 

 5           off from one group to the other, that 

 6           engagement isn't so successful.  

 7                  So the Safe Options Support teams are 

 8           teams of 12 individuals who are going to be 

 9           present in -- and there are going to be 20 of 

10           them across the state.  There will be 12 of 

11           them in New York City.  And they will be 

12           there to work with, as you said, this small 

13           group of very, very vulnerable individuals in 

14           intense need.  And they will stay with them 

15           and they will help transition them from one 

16           phase of the treatment to the other.

17                  This model has worked.  It's worked 

18           with discharges that we've had from 

19           hospitals.  It's just never been pushed up to 

20           this level of scale.  By doing this, I think 

21           we can really reach those individuals and get 

22           them into the services that they need.  It 

23           will take time.  It won't happen overnight, 

24           but it will happen.  And I think it's that 


                                                                   109

 1           continuity that's so important.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I certainly hope 

 3           you're right, Commissioner.  

 4                  I also want to go on record -- you 

 5           know, if you watch this hearing you might 

 6           think we all think people with mental 

 7           illnesses are all violent, and I want to 

 8           reemphasize we know that the vast, vast 

 9           majority of people who are suffering from 

10           different kinds of mental illness are not 

11           violent, are not criminals, and actually are 

12           disproportionately the victims of crime.

13                  But I do think that our communities 

14           are becoming very, very aware and fearful of 

15           that small percentage of people, 

16           disproportionately who have no services or 

17           options being made available to them who are 

18           acting out violently.  And we need to figure 

19           out the best way to keep them safe and our 

20           communities safe.

21                  So thank you.  My time is up.  And I 

22           am going to jump to Assemblymember Palmesano.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Yes, thank 

24           you, Commissioner, for being here.


                                                                   110

 1                  I'm going to kind of go off a question 

 2           my previous colleague talked about, 

 3           Ms. Miller, relative to the mask wearing and 

 4           the impact it's having on our young kids.  I 

 5           know you said there was data out there being 

 6           collected, but we've heard from -- I'm sure 

 7           all of my colleagues have heard from parents 

 8           and teachers about the negative impact that 

 9           mask wearing is having on kids, especially 

10           with special needs like speech therapy, 

11           speech needs, sensory issue needs, not being 

12           able to see the lips and facial expressions 

13           and how all of that impacts their personal 

14           growth and development.

15                  It seems to me that -- and a number of 

16           my colleagues -- that the negative long-term 

17           mental health and development impacts for our 

18           kids are taking a back seat to these 

19           mask-wearing mandates.  I know you said 

20           there's data being collected, but we're two 

21           years into this pandemic.  I know my other 

22           colleague asked the question previously of 

23           the health commissioner at a previous 

24           hearing, is the Department of Health doing a 


                                                                   111

 1           study, and the answer was no, we aren't.

 2                  Is your office actually doing a study 

 3           on the impact of mask-wearing mandates on our 

 4           young kids in our schools and our childcare 

 5           centers?  And if so, what are you asking, 

 6           when do you expect it back, and what are you 

 7           going to do with it?  

 8                  Because again, we're two years into 

 9           it.  So the data we're hearing is from our 

10           constituents, our parents, our teachers, of 

11           the negative impact this is having on our 

12           children.  It's documented they're taking 

13           steps backward with their mental health, 

14           they're taking steps backward with their 

15           speech and other sensory development issues.  

16           This is an important issue, that's why I 

17           wanted to bring it up again, and I think this 

18           is something that the public really wants to 

19           hear, especially our parents, the impact it's 

20           having on kids.

21                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  I 

22           understand.  But no, we are not, the Office 

23           of Mental Health itself is not doing any 

24           studies.  There are some that are being done 


                                                                   112

 1           by other academic institutions and things out 

 2           there that I've heard about, but no.  No, we 

 3           are not doing any.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  But 

 5           Commissioner, I mean, your job as 

 6           commissioner of the Office of Mental Health, 

 7           you've certainly heard over the past two 

 8           years, because we're two years into this, and 

 9           what kind of data are you possibly 

10           collecting?  I mean, are you talking to -- we 

11           see and hear every day from parents, teachers 

12           and community members who are impacted that 

13           kids are so devastatingly impacted by these 

14           mask-wearing mandates.  Again, kids with 

15           speech issues that need that interaction, 

16           other sensory issues, that facial connection, 

17           interaction eye to eye, face -- being able to 

18           see their lips, being able to see their 

19           facial expression is not being done, and 

20           they're taking steps backwards.  And again, 

21           it just seems like long-term mental health 

22           aspects are being given a back seat to the 

23           mask mandates.

24                  And so what input are you saying to 


                                                                   113

 1           the Governor and the Department of Health, 

 2           Commissioner, on this?  Because this is a 

 3           real impact.  The mental health is just as 

 4           important, if not more, than the other health 

 5           issues that are being raised, especially the 

 6           long-term impacts.

 7                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  There are 

 8           many impacts from this pandemic on youth and 

 9           on families, and it's teasing out what is 

10           what.  You know, just the degree to which 

11           there were those periods of isolation.  

12           There's the issue of masks.  There's the 

13           issue of loss of loved ones, probably the 

14           most devastating effect on our youth.  The 

15           issue of loss of jobs, employment.  There's 

16           all kinds of impacts that affect kids and 

17           families as a result of this pandemic.

18                  And so I think lots of things have to 

19           be looked at to understand the impact it's 

20           having on our children and families across 

21           the state.  And I appreciate what you're 

22           saying, but I think to really understand, 

23           when you say what is the impact of one thing 

24           or another, you have to really be very 


                                                                   114

 1           careful about assuming those impacts.

 2                  Yes, I agree that for many people the 

 3           focus is on masks.  But there are many 

 4           issues, many, many issues that are affecting 

 5           our families and youth today.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Yeah, the 

 7           learning and development of our kids is a 

 8           priority.  

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Thank you.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

12           much, Assemblymember.

13                  Next up is Assemblymember Griffin.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Okay, thank 

15           you, Chairs.  

16                  And thank you, Dr. Johnson {sic} for 

17           being with us this morning and afternoon.  

18                  I want to echo many of the comments 

19           that were already spoken today about Kendra's 

20           Law, mental health rehabilitation for those 

21           involved in crimes -- or not -- increasing 

22           the availability of patient services, mental 

23           health for children, the Dwyer Program, 

24           increasing mental health for our first 


                                                                   115

 1           responders, and expansion and parity with 

 2           telehealth.  

 3                  But I wanted to ask you a couple of 

 4           questions about some programs that I was 

 5           really happy to see.

 6                  The expansion of the Healthy Steps 

 7           program I think is wonderful, and I really 

 8           appreciate that it's integrated into 

 9           primary-care well visits, because every -- 

10           most children are going to regularly see 

11           their pediatrician, and this is something -- 

12           a place where mental health could be 

13           addressed easily.

14                  And I just wondered, what age does 

15           that start?

16                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  That's a 

17           mental health professional that's in the 

18           pediatrician's office, so it goes from zero 

19           up.  So that mental health professional will 

20           work with doing screenings, talk with 

21           families, look at the health of kids.  

22                  So it really starts very, very early.  

23           So it's pre-mental health issues, and it's 

24           primary prevention.  It's a very exciting 


                                                                   116

 1           program that I think in the long haul can 

 2           have a significant impact.  I agree with you, 

 3           it's great.

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Yeah, I think 

 5           it's great.

 6                  And so it's that someone will be 

 7           screened -- it's not like someone has to come 

 8           in and say, I think there's a mental health 

 9           problem, they will be screened to find out if 

10           there is.

11                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Yes.  And 

12           also obviously if the physician feels that 

13           there's something, he would have that person 

14           talk with them, et cetera.  

15                  And this mental professional is right 

16           there in the practice, so it's very easily 

17           accessible and very acceptable to the parent 

18           who's coming in.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Is this a 

20           pilot program, or is this going to be 

21           widespread?

22                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  We have it 

23           at 59 sites across the state now, serving 

24           several thousand kids and families.  And 


                                                                   117

 1           we're going to -- with the billing, getting 

 2           the billing straight, we're hopeful that once 

 3           we can get that straight, we will be able to 

 4           expand it further across the state through 

 5           Medicaid.

 6                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Yeah, that is 

 7           fantastic.  And it seems like a great way to 

 8           address mental health problems for children.

 9                  The other pilot program I was really 

10           happy to see was the New York Project Hope, 

11           where it's providing training to a community 

12           workforce of lay people.  Now, from reading 

13           it I got the impression that people who have 

14           gone through recovery and are rehabilitated 

15           can be trained.  Is that true, or did I just 

16           make that connection and it isn't true?

17                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Well, 

18           that's a part of it.  Certainly people who 

19           have lived experience can be part of that.  

20           It could also be other lay individuals in the 

21           community.  

22                  The effort here is to get people who 

23           know the community and do that kind of 

24           grassroots connection with people who 


                                                                   118

 1           traditionally would kind of shy away from 

 2           mental health services.  But it could also 

 3           be -- it could include individuals with lived 

 4           experience.

 5                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Okay, that 

 6           sounds really good.  And I even think 

 7           families of people would be really helpful 

 8           too.

 9                  If you could send any more information 

10           on both of those programs, I would love that, 

11           if you could send it to the chairs.

12                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  

13           Absolutely.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Thank you so 

15           much.

16                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.  

17                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  

18                  And I believe I had Assemblymember 

19           Brown on the list.  Is he still with us to 

20           ask questions?  He was here, and then his 

21           hand went away.  So I'm making the leap that 

22           he changed his mind for now.  

23                  And has Senator Tedisco returned?  I 

24           don't think so.


                                                                   119

 1                  All right, so I think I have completed 

 2           the Senate and Assembly lists for the 

 3           Mental Health commissioner.  Assemblywoman 

 4           Weinstein got called away to a meeting with 

 5           the mayor of New York City, who apparently 

 6           popped up in Albany today, so I'm playing 

 7           both roles for a while.

 8                  So with that, I want to thank 

 9           Commissioner Sullivan for being with us and 

10           answering all our questions, and appreciate 

11           your hard work on behalf of vulnerable 

12           New Yorkers who need all the help we can give 

13           them.  

14                  And with that, I will excuse you to go 

15           on with your busy day, and I will invite the 

16           New York State Office for People With 

17           Developmental Disabilities Acting 

18           Commissioner Kerri Neifeld to join us.

19                  OMH COMMISSIONER SULLIVAN:  Thank you.  

20           Thank you.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

22                  Are you with us, Acting Commissioner?  

23                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  I'm 

24           here.  Can you hear me?


                                                                   120

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yes, and we can 

 2           see you now.  Thank you very much.  

 3                  So welcome.  The rules of the road are 

 4           you have up to 10 minutes to present the 

 5           highlights of your testimony.  All of us here 

 6           have your full testimony, and the public has 

 7           access to that as well.  And then afterwards, 

 8           chairs, rankers and other members will ask 

 9           you questions.  

10                  So start the clock at 10 minutes.

11                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Great.  

12           Thank you.  Well, good afternoon, Chairs 

13           Krueger and Weinstein, when she returns, 

14           Disability Committee Chairs Mannion and 

15           Abinanti, and other distinguished members of 

16           the Legislature.  

17                  I am Kerri Neifeld, acting 

18           commissioner of the New York State Office for 

19           People With Developmental Disabilities.  

20           Thank you for this opportunity to provide 

21           testimony about Governor Hochul's fiscal year 

22           2023 Executive Budget and how it will benefit 

23           New Yorkers served by OPWDD.  

24                  I would like to start by saying that 


                                                                   121

 1           this budget shows the Governor's 

 2           extraordinary commitment to people with 

 3           developmental disabilities.  This is the 

 4           first time in recent memory that a governor 

 5           has acknowledged our service system within 

 6           the State of the State address, and Governor 

 7           Hochul has backed up that acknowledgement 

 8           with a 12 percent funding increase for the 

 9           OPWDD system in her proposed budget.  

10                  At OPWDD, we applaud this budget as a 

11           welcome and refreshing demonstration of our 

12           state's commitment to the over 100,000 people 

13           with developmental disabilities that our 

14           agency supports.  The Executive Budget is an 

15           acknowledgement of how vital people with 

16           developmental disabilities are to our 

17           communities and to our state.  

18                  Last fall, when the Governor first 

19           spoke with me about becoming commissioner of 

20           OPWDD, she told me that she wanted to see our 

21           state once again lead the nation in supports 

22           for people with developmental disabilities. 

23           If actions do indeed speak louder than words, 

24           then the Governor has delivered with a budget 


                                                                   122

 1           that is fair, balanced and provides 

 2           approximately $1.2 billion in new investments 

 3           for OPWDD to pursue the changes and 

 4           advancements that our stakeholders have told 

 5           us are important to them. 

 6                  The funding for our service system is 

 7           targeted at critical system improvements that 

 8           will make a difference, ones that will allow 

 9           OPWDD to build on what works and push further 

10           towards the goals our stakeholders envision 

11           for our future -- more people prepared for 

12           and supported to work; more people living 

13           with greater independence, supported by the 

14           right level of community-based services; more 

15           people better supported when crisis strikes; 

16           and more people able to receive the supports 

17           and services they need when they need them, 

18           provided by a well-respected and better-paid 

19           workforce.  The 2023 Executive Budget 

20           contains this support and more.  

21                  Specifically, this proposed budget 

22           provides long overdue and necessary support 

23           for one of the most pressing challenges of 

24           our time:  The shortage of direct support 


                                                                   123

 1           professionals to deliver the care and 

 2           services New Yorkers need.  As the COVID-19 

 3           pandemic has continued to impact every 

 4           sector, the workforce shortage in the 

 5           developmental disabilities service system has 

 6           become a crisis, requiring difficult measures 

 7           to ensure the people we support are safe. 

 8           This has impacted our ability to provide 

 9           quality services in every part of the state. 

10           It has confounded our nonprofit partners as 

11           well as our state-operated programs.  

12           People's lives have been and continue to be 

13           impacted. 

14                  The Governor's budget boldly 

15           acknowledges the severity of this crisis and 

16           the urgent need to act and turn the tide.  It 

17           commits over $780 million to support several 

18           actions that will improve the ability of the 

19           state and nonprofit sectors to recruit and 

20           retain essential direct care and clinical 

21           workers.  These actions include a 5.4 percent 

22           cost-of-living adjustment to increase 

23           reimbursement levels of nonprofit providers, 

24           recruitment and retention bonuses of up to 


                                                                   124

 1           $3,000 each, and funding to provide minimum 

 2           wage increases for staff in the nonprofit 

 3           sector.  

 4                  This support, along with the funds we 

 5           will receive through the American Rescue Plan 

 6           Act and devote to workforce initiatives, will 

 7           begin to correct the course in how we value 

 8           and support our frontline workers.  

 9                  But beyond these critical investments 

10           in our workforce, the proposed budget 

11           provides long-overdue funding to increase the 

12           housing subsidy used by people who want to 

13           live with greater independence in their own 

14           homes and apartments, as well as funding to 

15           restore room and board reimbursement levels 

16           to residential providers, and $15 million in 

17           new capital funding to expand the 

18           availability of affordable housing 

19           opportunities.  

20                  The proposed budget also supports 

21           OPWDD to improve how we assess the needs of 

22           children with developmental disabilities, 

23           allowing us to recognize and understand their 

24           unique need for services.  And the budget 


                                                                   125

 1           funds OPWDD to upgrade and improve our 

 2           information technology platforms.  This, in 

 3           turn, will improve our data collection and 

 4           reporting in support of more efficient and 

 5           informed operations.  

 6                  There is great excitement within our 

 7           service system at the opportunity that this 

 8           budget provides us.  We look forward to an 

 9           enacted budget which will allow us to advance 

10           OPWDD's supports and services to provide a 

11           better life for people with developmental 

12           disabilities and the dedicated and talented 

13           staff who support them.  

14                  I look forward to working with all of 

15           you as we make these critical system 

16           improvements a reality.  And I'm happy to 

17           answer any questions you may have today.  

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

19           much.  

20                  And our first questioner will be chair 

21           of the committee, Senator John Mannion.

22                  SENATOR MANNION:  Thank you, Senator 

23           Krueger.

24                  Thank you, Commissioner.  Sorry for 


                                                                   126

 1           the situation.  I hope you can hear me okay 

 2           across the way here, and you can probably see 

 3           my breath vaporizing in front of you.

 4                  So the budget proposal this year is 

 5           very different than any other year.  As 

 6           opposed to last year when the OPWDD service 

 7           system was facing huge cuts, today we're 

 8           looking at a budget proposal which would 

 9           provide a $416 million increase in state 

10           dollars.  Last year we were trying to prevent 

11           millions of dollars in cuts.  We secured the 

12           first-ever cost-of-living adjustment in a 

13           decade.  But that is not enough to fix the 

14           systematic underfunding of these services.  

15                  This budget contains a lot of good -- 

16           a historic increase for the housing subsidy, 

17           which will allow more people to live 

18           independently; huge bonuses for staff.  

19           However, I strongly believe that additional 

20           funding is necessary to address all the needs 

21           of this vulnerable population.  

22                  So here are my questions.  As you 

23           know, advocates have been shouting from the 

24           rooftops about the workforce crisis.  We're 


                                                                   127

 1           facing a massive shortage right now.  This 

 2           budget proposes $3,000 bonuses for DSPs and 

 3           clinical staff.  My questions are, why did 

 4           the agency propose a one-time bonus instead 

 5           of a salary enhancement for these critically 

 6           important jobs or rather than a multiyear 

 7           commitment to these bonuses?  And what is the 

 8           incentive for individuals to stay beyond that 

 9           one year?

10                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.  

11           That's a great question, thank you.

12                  And obviously we're very supportive as 

13           well of our direct support workforce and 

14           agree with the need to continue to enhance 

15           their salaries and recognize the really 

16           valuable work that they do in support of 

17           people with developmental disabilities.

18                  What I would say about the -- you 

19           know, what this budget does to support wages 

20           for direct support professionals is certainly 

21           the one-time up to $3,000 bonuses for 

22           healthcare workers, of which we are a part, 

23           will be really impactful.  A $3,000 bonus is 

24           a pretty significant amount of bonus dollars, 


                                                                   128

 1           especially when you think about the annual 

 2           salary of the workers that we're talking 

 3           about.  

 4                  Additionally, the 5.4 percent COLA 

 5           will be a 5.4 percent increase for all of our 

 6           providers, and we would expect our providers 

 7           and we will work with our providers to make 

 8           sure that those funds are proportionately 

 9           spent.  Right?  So we know our providers -- 

10           the largest part of their budget is 

11           personnel, and so we would expect a 

12           significant amount of the funds that they 

13           receive through the COLA to go towards 

14           personnel and staffing needs.  

15                  We know obviously we need to 

16           recognize -- with the exception of the 

17           1 percent COLA last year, which I know you 

18           were a champion of, this is the first COLA in 

19           a long time.  So flexibility will be 

20           necessary for our providers to stabilize.  

21           But we do expect to see a lot of those 

22           dollars.

23                  Additionally, what's not included in 

24           this budget but is part of our enhanced FMAP, 


                                                                   129

 1           through the ARPA funds, is $1.5 billion that 

 2           is going directly into the pockets of our 

 3           direct support professionals.  Again, that's 

 4           a one-time bonus, but really it's four 

 5           one-time bonuses going directly to our direct 

 6           support professionals, one of them being 

 7           optional if individuals choose to be 

 8           vaccinated.

 9                  But I think between ARPA, between the 

10           5.4 percent COLA, and between the Governor's 

11           proposed bonus, we're seeing a significant 

12           amount of funds going into the pockets of 

13           DSPs, you know, for previous fiscal years, 

14           for this fiscal year, and even for the next 

15           fiscal year.  So I do see this as really 

16           stabilizing for, you know, previous years and 

17           for, you know, at least this year and next 

18           year.

19                  SENATOR MANNION:  Thank you, 

20           Commissioner.  I'm going to move on to our 

21           second important issue.  

22                  Nearly 100 state-operated group 

23           homes are under temporary suspensions due to 

24           a lack of staff.  In your recent response to 


                                                                   130

 1           my letter about a staffing emergency plan for 

 2           OPWDD, you mentioned there are 2,300 less 

 3           direct care staff and 227 less clinical staff 

 4           than in 2020.  What does this budget propose 

 5           to ensure that these are truly temporary 

 6           suspensions and not closures?  And what is 

 7           the proposed date to begin reopening these 

 8           suspended homes?

 9                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Great 

10           question.  Again, the up to $3,000 bonuses 

11           will be allocated to state-operated staff as 

12           well, so we see that as helping in terms of 

13           recruitment and retention of (Zoom 

14           interruption) -- are structured.

15                  We have -- as you know, in the budget 

16           there is $30 million allocated for just 

17           general increase in in-services, and so some 

18           of that will go to helping to cover the 

19           additional need for certified beds as we need 

20           them.  

21                  You're right that it was -- 

22           approximately 80 homes were temporarily 

23           suspended due to staffing issues, so we're 

24           hoping to see, as the staffing crisis levels 


                                                                   131

 1           out and we're able to, you know, recruit and 

 2           retain additional staff, that we'll be able 

 3           to look at those areas where we made those 

 4           temporary suspensions and make decisions 

 5           about how and when to reopen.  And, if 

 6           necessary, you know, for other reasons, make 

 7           permanent decisions about closures.  And 

 8           obviously we'll be doing that with full 

 9           transparency and in conversation with the 

10           Legislature and the unions.  

11                  And, you know, we've discussed before, 

12           right, the decisions to make temporary 

13           suspensions to services are not ones that we 

14           make easily or take very lightly.  Right?  

15           Those decisions are made when we are put in a 

16           position to have to make changes in order to, 

17           you know, manage health and safety and make 

18           sure that we have adequate staffing resources 

19           to serve the people that are living in the 

20           certified groups homes.  

21                  And so when we make those decisions, 

22           it's unfortunate, and we understand how 

23           disruptive they can be.  And we do have every 

24           intention of, where possible, bringing those 


                                                                   132

 1           homes back online as soon as staffing allows.

 2                  You're muted, Senator.  

 3                  SENATOR MANNION:  Not ideal.  Thank 

 4           you very much, Commissioner.

 5                  Has OPWDD failed to renew any of the 

 6           leases for these homes that are temporarily 

 7           closed?

 8                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  I'll 

 9           need to double-check because I certainly 

10           don't want to misspeak, but my understanding 

11           is that when the homes are temporarily 

12           suspended and when we make the decisions to 

13           temporarily suspend those services, we 

14           maintain the buildings, we maintain the 

15           leases, as necessary, so that, you know, 

16           those are not -- you know, those issues don't 

17           stand in the way of us bringing those 

18           services back online.

19                  As a separate issue, sometimes we do 

20           have to temporarily suspend services because 

21           we're having lease challenges with the 

22           landlord.  But if we made the decision to 

23           temporarily suspend due to staffing, we would 

24           maintain the property and maintain the lease.  


                                                                   133

 1           And like I said, I can double-check and we 

 2           can follow up with you if I'm incorrect in 

 3           what I'm saying here.

 4                  SENATOR MANNION:  Thank you.  I 

 5           appreciate that.

 6                  The budget includes $30 million in 

 7           funding and $60 million fully annualized for 

 8           new supports and services.  This is the same 

 9           allocation as in previous years.  So I am 

10           asking, how is OPWDD working with families, 

11           State Ed and other agencies to identify new 

12           and additional individuals who qualify for 

13           services and assure there's appropriate 

14           infrastructure in place to meet their needs, 

15           if we are maintaining that same funding as in 

16           the previous three years?

17                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  That's a 

18           great question.  And as you know, we do work 

19           very closely with school districts, with 

20           State Education, with our care coordinating 

21           agencies to make sure that individuals who 

22           need access to services in the OPWDD system 

23           when they age out of the educational system 

24           have that access.


                                                                   134

 1                  We believe that the 30 million that -- 

 2           you're right, that annualizes to 60 million 

 3           and then drops down as -- you know, with 

 4           federal resources as well, as a match, is 

 5           sufficient to support, you know, the usual 

 6           expansion in services that we need, which is 

 7           roughly 2,000 individuals a year.  Two 

 8           thousand new individuals a year is what we 

 9           are used to seeing.

10                  And, you know, obviously we continue 

11           to work with the Division of the Budget and 

12           the Executive to make sure that we're 

13           allocating new resources appropriately to 

14           support growing need.

15                  SENATOR MANNION:  Thank you, 

16           Commissioner.  The last one here:  How is 

17           OPWDD planning to address the more than 1,000 

18           individuals identified in emergency need for 

19           certified residential opportunities, and the 

20           nearly 2,000 individuals identified as 

21           substantial need?  

22                  Along with that, at what rate is OPWDD 

23           able to create new residential opportunities 

24           under this budget proposal?


                                                                   135

 1                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.  

 2           Great questions.

 3                  You know, we are very eager to see 

 4           residential opportunities come to fruition 

 5           for the individuals who are waiting for those 

 6           opportunities.  Staffing challenges have been 

 7           pervasive, as you know, and have really 

 8           resulted in our providers and in state 

 9           operations, you know, having a difficult time 

10           bringing in new individuals to residential 

11           opportunities.  

12                  So at this time we actually have a 

13           significant number of vacant beds across the 

14           state, in state operations and in our 

15           voluntary providers.  So as we start to see 

16           some of the investments in the Governor's 

17           proposed budget assist with the workforce 

18           crisis, we expect to be able to staff 

19           additional beds and to make residential 

20           opportunities available to those people who 

21           are waiting.

22                  Of course, when there are situations 

23           of crisis, we always, you know, work with 

24           providers, we work with our state operations 


                                                                   136

 1           team, and we work with the families to make 

 2           sure that individuals have what they need.  

 3           But it has been very challenging over the 

 4           last couple of years.  

 5                  If we get to a point where we assess 

 6           that our system does need additional beds, 

 7           the budget does support us to make additional 

 8           beds available.  But as I said, right now we 

 9           have vacant beds and it's really more a 

10           matter of having staff.  Because, you know, 

11           as we talked about, right, a vacant bed is 

12           really not worth very much without the 

13           necessary staff to support the individual who 

14           lives there.

15                  SENATOR MANNION:  Understood.  Thank 

16           you, Commissioner.  I appreciate your time 

17           and your leadership.  

18                  And with that, I'll pass it back to 

19           Madam Chair.  Thank you.  

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, 

21           Senator Mannion.  I hope you get inside where 

22           it's warmer.

23                  Next up is Chair Tom Abinanti from the 

24           Assembly.


                                                                   137

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  Thank you, 

 2           Senator.

 3                  Nice to see you, Commissioner.  I know 

 4           we've had some conversations, and I very much 

 5           appreciate your open door -- or your open 

 6           Zoom, whichever way you want to look at it.

 7                  Let me start by saying that, you know, 

 8           people with disabilities only want what 

 9           everybody else wants, to be able to live a 

10           good-quality life.  And OPWDD was set up to 

11           support people with disabilities in that 

12           endeavor.  There's been a big disappointment 

13           over the years because OPWDD, rather than 

14           being an advocate, has become an apologist.  

15           And I'm hopeful that we're going to see you 

16           as an advocate publicly for people with 

17           disabilities to the Governor and to the rest 

18           of the world.

19                  I am pleased with the way you've acted 

20           so far.  I just hope that you're going to be 

21           able to continue that, and that you speak out 

22           as an advocate for people with disabilities.

23                  Now, the Senator covered most of the 

24           things that I wanted to talk about.  Let me 


                                                                   138

 1           just raise some of issues again in maybe a 

 2           different way.  We're talking about money for 

 3           one-time bonuses.  If we were to raise the 

 4           salaries of the entire industry that is under 

 5           OPWDD, do we have any idea what that would 

 6           cost?  I mean, there are people saying that 

 7           we need to increase salaries 150 percent 

 8           permanently so that we can go from $15 an 

 9           hour to $22 an hour in order to compete with 

10           Amazon and McDonald's and all of those other 

11           places.

12                  Do we have any estimate what the real 

13           cost of that would be?

14                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Well, I 

15           would have to get back to you.  I don't -- I 

16           certainly don't have it off the top of my 

17           head.

18                  And I think, as you know, right, every 

19           provider, based on sort of where they are 

20           located, what their rate is, et cetera, you 

21           know, have sort of a different starting 

22           salary for their staff.  And then as you 

23           talked about, right, there are levels of 

24           compression, there are clinical titles.  And 


                                                                   139

 1           the rate of pay, based by provider, based on 

 2           where they're located, based on the home that 

 3           they're in, all might be slightly different.  

 4           So --

 5                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  Well, that's 

 6           valid.  I would just -- I would just like 

 7           to -- I'm sorry, I'm going to move quickly 

 8           because otherwise -- but I want to urge you 

 9           to please do that study.  Because I think 

10           it's important that we understand what our 

11           target is.  

12                  At the same time, I'd also like to ask 

13           you to include the cost to the providers.  

14           Like I've heard from them that they're saying 

15           the health insurance costs for their 

16           employees have gone up 40 percent.  And they 

17           have other insurance costs and other things 

18           like that that have gone up.  So when you do 

19           that study, if you could please include those 

20           types of costs so we have somewhere to start.

21                  The second thing is we've talked about 

22           a 507 plan, which I guess is a five-year plan 

23           that is supposed to be due every five years 

24           or something like that.  Do we have any idea 


                                                                   140

 1           where that is at this point and when we can 

 2           expect that to come out?  The last 

 3           commissioner promised that it would be out, 

 4           you know, two years ago and we still haven't 

 5           seen it.  Do you have any idea when we'll get 

 6           to see that?  

 7                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure, 

 8           yeah.  And the 507 plan is something that 

 9           we're actually very excited about within 

10           OPWDD.  Over the summer, you know, we 

11           embarked on significant stakeholder 

12           engagement related to that.  And the draft -- 

13           and there is a draft in process now.  

14                  As you know, right, at the end of the 

15           summer, new Governor, new deputy secretary, 

16           new commissioner.  So wanted to make sure 

17           that, you know, I had the opportunity to hit 

18           the ground running, talking to folks, 

19           understanding people's input, and make sure 

20           that I was taking a fresh look at the 507 

21           before we finalize the draft.  

22                  We expect to have a draft out by 

23           mid-April, and then a final version of that.  

24           Once the draft goes out, it will be open for 


                                                                   141

 1           public comment.  Obviously we'll have, you 

 2           know, conversations with you, Senator 

 3           Mannion, the DDAC.  And then we'll have 

 4           finalized the final version of the 507 plan 

 5           by November.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  Commissioner, 

 7           you said that you're talking to the 

 8           stakeholders, the people who are out there.  

 9           I'd like to urge you to set up more formal 

10           processes where parents and guardians and 

11           those in the field can have more input.  

12                  I know there are some processes 

13           already.  They don't seem to really be having 

14           the input that they should.  I know you're 

15           putting out an RFP to look at the whole 

16           system, et cetera.  I would really like to 

17           see us use that money, instead of for an RFP, 

18           for housing and other services and that we 

19           instead do it in-house and hear from the 

20           stakeholders.  

21                  I had a Zoom meeting on Saturday.  We 

22           had, I don't know, 60 people show up.  We 

23           took selected testimony, a few minutes from 

24           each.  And I've got a list of things that we 


                                                                   142

 1           could use to review and revise the way OPWDD 

 2           functions.

 3                  So I would urge that you do that kind 

 4           of a thing, hold some public forums, bring in 

 5           different groups of people, and maybe save 

 6           the money that an RFP would cost.

 7                  The other thing is when we're talking 

 8           about the -- we've heard -- I don't know 

 9           where to start here.  The Senator did a lot 

10           of what we need to do.  On the -- what 

11           efforts are being made to fill those 4,000 

12           beds that you spoke about?  I don't have a 

13           sense that those beds are empty because of a 

14           lack of personnel but just because of a lack 

15           of money from OPWDD to the voluntary agencies 

16           to fill those beds.  

17                  Is there any effort to look at that 

18           and to try to get that money out the door to 

19           them?

20                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.  I 

21           think there's a lot of effort going on.  And 

22           certainly, you know, staffing is definitely a 

23           significant challenge.  And individuals, you 

24           know, needing residential opportunities, like 


                                                                   143

 1           I said, need to have the staff there to 

 2           support them.

 3                  We have several things in the proposed 

 4           budget.  Certainly the COLA will increase, 

 5           right, by 5.4 percent the rate to all of our 

 6           providers, which will help with additional 

 7           funds, the $3,000 bonus, what we're doing 

 8           through ARPA, will all work towards 

 9           recruitment and retention.

10                  The other thing that we're doing that 

11           you and I have talked about is we are 

12           revising the way that we make rates for our 

13           providers.  Currently our rates are based on, 

14           you know, two-year-old cost information, and 

15           it's not based on the needs of the individual 

16           that will be served in that bed.  So we are 

17           instead working with the Department of Health 

18           and the state's actuary to come up with a new 

19           rate-making methodology that recognizes 

20           acuity and will help pay a provider based on 

21           the needs of the individual and will help 

22           make sure that the resources that the 

23           individual needs to live in a residence are 

24           met.  So -- 


                                                                   144

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  On that point, 

 2           if I can.  If I can -- if I can.

 3                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  I have heard 

 5           from some agencies that they are willing to 

 6           take some of the most severe cases if OPWDD 

 7           would work with them to develop the programs.  

 8           I know OPWDD is trying very hard to bring 

 9           people back from out of state, but thus far 

10           we do not have the capability of dealing with 

11           those people, because that's why they're out 

12           of state.

13                  Can we get a commitment that you will 

14           sit down with the agencies and develop a plan 

15           to replace the services that are out of state 

16           with equivalent services?  Rather than just 

17           burdening the agencies and say, You've got to 

18           take these people, figure out a way to do it.  

19           I think some agencies are willing to work and 

20           to put in the monies necessary and the effort 

21           necessary, but they need a specific 

22           commitment from OPWDD that OPWDD will work 

23           with them to develop these programs.

24                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  If there 


                                                                   145

 1           are providers who are willing to develop 

 2           programs for some of the more complex and 

 3           hard-to-serve individuals in our system, I'd 

 4           be happy to meet with them and have my team 

 5           present so that we can discuss what those 

 6           ideas are and how OPWDD might support them, 

 7           definitely.  

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  Commissioner, 

 9           I'd also like to set up a -- to have you set 

10           up another group to meet with those who 

11           distribute the services, like the brokers and 

12           the fiscal intermediaries and people like 

13           that.  Because I'm hearing that on a 

14           day-to-day basis there is a problem.  

15                  There's a disparity of distribution, 

16           of workforce in the different regions, and 

17           that it takes months to make a simple change 

18           in a self-direction budget when the money is 

19           in the budget and they just want to move it 

20           from one place to another, and that it takes 

21           forever to do all kinds of things -- that 

22           people have to be fingerprinted twice if they 

23           work for two different agencies, and there's 

24           delays.  All kinds of small problems like 


                                                                   146

 1           that that I think could be taken care of.  If 

 2           you were to send one of your deputies to meet 

 3           with the different agencies, make a list of 

 4           these, and try to deal with these day-to-day 

 5           problems, I think that would save money for 

 6           your agency, it would save time out on the 

 7           outside for those who are doing the 

 8           day-to-day work and provide a lot better 

 9           service for those people.  

10                  And I think this is budget-related, 

11           because those monies can then be taken and 

12           put back into the system.

13                  So again, I'd like to ask for a 

14           commitment that you will designate somebody 

15           to deal with representatives from, you know, 

16           the self-direction field all over the state.  

17           They all have problems, and many of them 

18           are -- you know, some of them are different 

19           than others.

20                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Yeah, 

21           absolutely.  We are finalizing right now -- I 

22           know that you thought that maybe some of the 

23           funds could be better used than RFPs.  But, 

24           you know, we feel very strongly that, you 


                                                                   147

 1           know, we have an opportunity with some of the 

 2           enhanced federal dollars to take a look at 

 3           some of our programs, self-direction being 

 4           one of them.  And we are going to be issuing 

 5           an RFP soon, an RFA, to bring on a consultant 

 6           to take a deep dive and look very thoroughly 

 7           at our self-direction program.  You know, 

 8           certainly talking with FIs, with brokers, 

 9           with family members and with self-advocates.  

10           So we --

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  But 

12           Commissioner, we can't wait a full year or 

13           two for that report to come back.  It's got 

14           to be a very short time frame.  

15                  And I will tell you, these are 

16           professionals who know exactly what needs to 

17           be done.  Like one of the things that I just 

18           want to bring -- a very small problem, but to 

19           some people it's a big problem.  The 

20           inflation rate is now 7 percent a month, and 

21           there's no increase in the housing 

22           allocations.  You know, under self-direction.  

23           And the agencies themselves also are having a 

24           problem.  They're struggling.  


                                                                   148

 1                  Is there any way we can come up with 

 2           some emergency monies to deal with the 

 3           crunch?  I mean, you know, people get, what 

 4           is it, $3,000 a year to deal with telephone 

 5           and utilities and heat and whatever?  And 

 6           that's gone now.  I mean, with 7 percent, 

 7           they were struggling before.  There's no way 

 8           they're going to be able to stay in their 

 9           apartments.  Can we get some kind of 

10           emergency funding for that in this budget?  

11                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Well, 

12           certainly the Governor's proposed budget does 

13           include the increase to the housing subsidy, 

14           if that's what you're referring to, and that 

15           would go into effect --

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  Yeah, but 

17           that's just needed for the day-to-day.  We 

18           needed an increase in housing subsidy anyway.  

19           Now what we're seeing all of a sudden is zero 

20           inflation has gone to 7 percent overnight.  

21           And so that is -- that's another crunch in 

22           addition to the additional money.  

23                  So I would ask you to take a look at 

24           that and see if we can get some emergency 


                                                                   149

 1           supplement, even short term, as long as 

 2           inflation is now whatever -- you know, this 

 3           high rate.

 4                  My time is up.  I want to thank you 

 5           very much.  Thank you, Senator.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 7           much.  

 8                  And Tom, I don't know if you noticed, 

 9           but we had mistakenly only given you 

10           five minutes and then we added extra time for 

11           you, so --

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  Thank you, 

13           Senator.  

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  -- we did not 

15           diss you as chair, we just started off a 

16           little wrong.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN ABINANTI:  Thank you.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  You're welcome.

19                  So Senator Hinchey asked me to skip 

20           her for the moment, so I'm going to move to 

21           the ranker for the Assembly, Assemblymember 

22           Miller.

23                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Hi.  Hello, 

24           Commissioner.  How are you?


                                                                   150

 1                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Good, 

 2           thanks.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Good.  So, 

 4           gosh, five minutes for so much to say here, I 

 5           don't even know how to cram this all in.  I'm 

 6           going to do my best.

 7                  You know, it's funny, when I listen to 

 8           Chair Abinanti talk and he says OPWDD is 

 9           supposed to be the advocate, we look to you 

10           to be the advocate, and recently has just 

11           been more of an apologist -- when we have a 

12           family or individual in need, they're 

13           suffering tremendously.  And when they hear 

14           things like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm 

15           so sorry, again and again, it isn't doing 

16           anything to fill that need or help them.  

17           Those of us that live this life -- I think 

18           you can somewhat say that both Tom and I have 

19           a different perspective because we intimately 

20           know this need because we live it with our 

21           own children.  And I hope that that is heard 

22           and respected when we're asking these 

23           questions.  You know, yes, I'm asking for the 

24           hundreds of people that I hear from, but I'm 


                                                                   151

 1           also living this day to day as well.  

 2                  That being said, I applaud the 

 3           Governor's attention and the budget 

 4           allocations for this year, after years of 

 5           just being cut and underfunded.  But I have 

 6           to really question the sustainability of 

 7           this.  It's been brought up before that, you 

 8           know, these bonuses, they're temporary.  Is 

 9           there anything at the end of March 2023 that 

10           promises sustainability, future budget 

11           commitments -- a five-year commitment, like 

12           Pataki did?  You know, this just feels like a 

13           big fat Band-Aid.  And we need 

14           sustainability.  We need to know that once 

15           these bonuses wear off, it's not going to 

16           drop off again and people will be quitting 

17           left and right and we'll be in a worse 

18           position than we are now.

19                  And I have just a few technical 

20           questions.

21                  In the fall, the former commissioner 

22           had mentioned increasing the starting state 

23           salary for DSPs from Salary Grade 7 to 

24           Grade 9.  Do you know the status of this?


                                                                   152

 1                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  That has 

 2           taken effect.

 3                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  It has, very 

 4           good.  Okay.  

 5                  And the state-employed DSPs have a 

 6           higher starting wage.  What's the department 

 7           doing to address this disparity in the DSP 

 8           pay?

 9                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Well, 

10           certainly, you know, the investments that 

11           we've discussed here -- the COLA, the 

12           30 million that's in the budget, you know, to 

13           help providers meet the minimum wage 

14           requirements, the multiple bonuses through 

15           ARPA and through the Governor's proposed 

16           budget -- all of that goes directly to the 

17           DSPs in the nonprofit sector.  The Governor's 

18           up to $3,000 bonus, that goes to 

19           state-operated staff as well.  But the ARPA 

20           funds went only to our voluntary providers.

21                  So we are -- you know, we do see those 

22           investments as ways to help bridge that gap.  

23           And then additionally, as we continue to 

24           evaluate our state-operated system, you know, 


                                                                   153

 1           we continue to look to the state-operated 

 2           system to be the safety net provider and 

 3           begin to serve individuals that are more 

 4           complex or harder to serve.  So we are 

 5           looking for the state-operated system to do 

 6           that.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Okay.  And as 

 8           far as the Governor signing legislation for 

 9           the Office of the Advocate for People with 

10           Disabilities, is there something included in 

11           this budget to support the activities of this 

12           officer?

13                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Yes.  

14           The officer will report directly to the 

15           chamber and will be a member of the 

16           Governor's executive team.  However, our 

17           budget, the OPWDD budget, was given 

18           additional dollars, I believe it's $330,000 

19           additional dollars that we can 

20           administratively support that office in 

21           hiring staff.  So we should see that 

22           individual have a team that works in the 

23           Executive Chamber.  And we're very excited 

24           about the creation of that Chief Disability 


                                                                   154

 1           Officer.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Okay, that's 

 3           good.

 4                  Also, as far as intensive behavioral 

 5           services, when will the 30 percent increase 

 6           in intensive behavioral services rates occur?

 7                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  That's a 

 8           great question.  And honestly, I don't have 

 9           the answer.  So we'll have to follow up.  

10           We'll follow up following the hearing with 

11           the timeline for that.

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Okay, great.

13                  And in my last 20 seconds or so, I 

14           just want to say, regarding the CCOs around 

15           the state, I still hear from so many families 

16           that are just not getting what they should be 

17           from their CCO.  You know, I was a bit of a 

18           squeaky wheel at last year's budget, so my 

19           experience has improved, but it hasn't for so 

20           many others.  And they don't have the ability 

21           to, you know, bring attention to it the way I 

22           did.

23                  Is there any oversight?  Is there any 

24           seeking family feedback saying, Is this not 


                                                                   155

 1           working for you?

 2                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Yes.  

 3           Okay for me to answer the question, I think?  

 4                  We are -- we're working on a CCO 

 5           evaluation right now as we speak.  And one of 

 6           the large components of creating that 

 7           evaluation is seeking feedback from the 

 8           families who utilize the CCO services.  We 

 9           certainly also hear some of the challenges 

10           with care management.  We hear a lot of the 

11           successes as well.  And we want those 

12           successes to be, you know, ones that 

13           everybody who has CCO services feels.  

14                  So we are conducting a thorough 

15           evaluation with the family and self-advocates 

16           input into what does need to be evaluated.  

17           And we're looking forward to conducting that 

18           evaluation and making improvements in the 

19           system, the way that we administer the 

20           program and the way that CCOs, you know, 

21           provide the service.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

23                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN MILLER:  Thank you.  

24                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  


                                                                   156

 1                  We've been joined by Assemblywoman 

 2           Walsh.  

 3                  And now to the Senate.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  I 

 5           think Senator Hinchey is still at a committee 

 6           meeting, waiting to come back.  So let's 

 7           continue with the Assembly for now.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So we go to 

 9           Assemblyman Burdick for three minutes.

10                  (Pause.)

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Chris, I see 

12           you.  Are you -- Chris, can you hear us?  Can 

13           you unmute yourself if you wanted to speak?

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Yes, thank you.

15                  Commissioner, thank you very much for 

16           your work.  And I do appreciate your having 

17           met with me to discuss some of the issues 

18           that we determined through hearings that we 

19           held on employment opportunities and barriers 

20           to them for people with disabilities.  

21                  I just want to follow up on our 

22           meeting a bit.  We spoke about streamlining 

23           the intake process and issues, and in fact, 

24           Chair Abinanti also mentioned them for minor 


                                                                   157

 1           changes in the budget.  And you had mentioned 

 2           at the time that you plan on kind of 

 3           overhauling the intake process as well as the 

 4           process for dealing with changes in budget.  

 5           And not in this question-and-answer, but if 

 6           you might be able provide us in writing just 

 7           an update, that would be great, because then 

 8           I could share that with others.  And I know 

 9           that the chairs would like to see that as 

10           well.

11                  We talked about legislation which 

12           Senator Mannion is carrying on the Senate 

13           side and I'm carrying in the Assembly, and 

14           was wondering about the possibility of 

15           including in the 30-day amendment the 

16           proposal for a 250,000 pilot workforce 

17           training program, partnering with NYSED.  And 

18           you had suggested that I speak to the 

19           Governor's office, which I did.  And we also 

20           had a bill that was dealing with changing 

21           the -- updating "preferred source" in the 

22           finance law.  And I'm wondering if you can 

23           update me on that.

24                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Well, I 


                                                                   158

 1           think what we discussed, at OPW we're very 

 2           supportive of anything that will help to 

 3           engage individuals with developmental 

 4           disabilities and further education and 

 5           employment opportunities.

 6                  And so, you know, I don't know the 

 7           status of where those bills are at the 

 8           moment.  But as I said, you know, we're very 

 9           supportive of engaging the people that we 

10           support and providing opportunities for them 

11           to engage in employment and educational 

12           opportunities.  So I'm happy to follow up 

13           with --

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  If you could.  

15           because I know that the deadline for the 

16           30-day amendment is I think the 17th.  So 

17           we're kind of coming right up on it.  

18                  And if you might be able to let me 

19           know about that, that would be terrific.  

20           And, as well, the feedback on the preferred 

21           source bill with Senator Mannion.

22                  Thank you so much.

23                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Thank 

24           you.


                                                                   159

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 2                  Back to the Senate.

 3                  (Pause.)

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Sorry, I was 

 5           muted by accident.

 6                  I don't think Senator Hinchey's back, 

 7           so let's continue with the Assembly.

 8                  SENATOR HINCHEY:  I'm here.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Oh, there you 

10           are, Michelle, I'm sorry.  My camera went 

11           off, so I'm operating blind.

12                  Senator Michelle Hinchey.

13                  SENATOR HINCHEY:  No worries.  Thank 

14           you so much, and apologies for double duty 

15           here.  But thank you so much, Chair.

16                  And Commissioner, it's great to see 

17           you.  Thanks for being here. 

18                  I have one question, and it stems from 

19           a constituent case that we're dealing with.  

20           I have a constituent who, when she was 16, 

21           she suffered a traumatic brain injury.  She's 

22           now in her twenties, and the level of care 

23           that she was receiving or the ability for 

24           care that she was receiving when she was a 


                                                                   160

 1           minor has expired.  And she actually, after 

 2           her mother was searching for years every day, 

 3           trying to get the quality and level of care 

 4           that she needed -- it ended up they left our 

 5           community and they moved to Long Island to 

 6           actually be able to get the kinds of services 

 7           that her daughter needed.

 8                  Obviously we feel that that's 

 9           unacceptable.  People should not have to 

10           leave their home, they shouldn't have to 

11           leave their community to seek care because in 

12           upstate areas we have a lack of it.  And so I 

13           actually have a bill that would require OPWDD 

14           and DOH to conduct a study that would examine 

15           the accessibility, affordability and delivery 

16           of services to individuals with TBIs across 

17           the state.

18                  But in the meantime, I'm curious what 

19           it is that you think you can direct your 

20           office to do now, or what you are doing to 

21           start to look at these challenges in services 

22           across the state.

23                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.

24                  Well, with regard to the individual 


                                                                   161

 1           case, we can certainly follow up offline and 

 2           see if there's anything that we can do to 

 3           better understand exactly what happened for 

 4           the individual and their family that you're 

 5           talking about so we can understand, you know, 

 6           which services were and were not available in 

 7           your community.

 8                  In general, I would say that, you 

 9           know, we're very focused and very much want 

10           there to be equity across the state in terms 

11           of people's ability to access services.  And 

12           we do have challenges, there are some 

13           challenges geographically.  Sometimes it's 

14           based on just not having, you know, people to 

15           do the work.  Sometimes it's just that there 

16           are not enough providers.

17                  We are -- when we are aware that there 

18           is a lack of a certain service, we do try to 

19           work with our providers to make additional 

20           services available.  And so I'm happy, you 

21           know, to continue to do that and certainly to 

22           look into the issues that you're talking 

23           about.  But it is very important that 

24           individuals don't have to leave their 


                                                                   162

 1           community in order to access services.  

 2           Right?  I mean, People should be able to be 

 3           in their homes, where they want to live, and 

 4           be served in the ways that they need to be 

 5           served.  So.

 6                  SENATOR HINCHEY:  Great, thank you.  

 7           Yes, I look forward to hopefully working with 

 8           you on that.  

 9                  I mean, I can attest our office talked 

10           to your agency numerous times.  They had a 

11           lawyer, they've talked to everybody.  These 

12           services were just not here, and there was no 

13           ability to bring them.  There was also lots 

14           of red tape that people went through that we 

15           found just, quite frankly, ridiculous for her 

16           to have to go through and then having to 

17           fully leave our area.  

18                  So look forward to working with you to 

19           make sure that we have better equity across 

20           the state.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

23                  Assemblyman Palmesano.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Thank you, 


                                                                   163

 1           Commissioner.  Certainly overseeing an agency 

 2           that looks over the most vulnerable of our 

 3           citizens needs to be a priority, and 

 4           certainly what comes along with that, respect 

 5           and dignity, treating those individuals and 

 6           their families.

 7                  Which brings me to a concerning issue 

 8           that happened around Thanksgiving of this 

 9           year, particularly in the Finger Lakes area, 

10           where a number of group homes were shut down 

11           with no notification to family members, no 

12           notification to individuals.  Where some 

13           people were home with their family members 

14           over Thanksgiving, and they were not 

15           notified, their belongings were moved out 

16           without them knowing.  

17                  Then in instances where people were 

18           moved out of the home in Dansville two weeks 

19           prior, and then a group of individuals were 

20           moved from one home to the group home in 

21           Dansville two weeks later, which really made 

22           no sense.

23                  Part of the discussions we heard -- we 

24           heard about 11 homes, I think, were issued as 


                                                                   164

 1           temporarily suspended, a number in the 

 2           Finger Lakes.  We heard that part of this was 

 3           due to the staff -- severe staff shortage, 

 4           900 employees statewide, it was claimed, 120 

 5           in the Finger Lakes area.

 6                  So my question is this.  And some of 

 7           this, I guess, was being planned ahead of 

 8           time, but then it was expedited, we were told 

 9           that, over the holidays.  But again, number 

10           one, why wasn't there any notification 

11           provided to these families, and why was it 

12           done so quickly?  Is this -- what's the 

13           status going on with these house closures?  

14           Are they reopened?  Is this going on anywhere 

15           else across the state?  And what are we 

16           seeing as far as the staffing shortages that 

17           were used as the reason for this?  Because 

18           this just seems like the way it was handled, 

19           it was not handled properly, and poorly, and 

20           really not treating those individuals and 

21           their families with respect and dignity.

22                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.  

23           It's a great question.  And certainly we do 

24           everything that we can to make sure that the 


                                                                   165

 1           families and the individuals that we're 

 2           serving in our residential system have, you 

 3           know, as much notification as possible when 

 4           an emergency move or a temporary suspension 

 5           needs to take place, you know, for the 

 6           reasons that you identified.  It's a major 

 7           disruption for the families, and we want to 

 8           respect the dignity and the choice that 

 9           people have about where they live and how 

10           their belongings are treated and all that.

11                  The situation that happened over the 

12           course of the Thanksgiving weekend in the 

13           Finger Lakes is not isolated to the 

14           Finger Lakes.  You know, as we were 

15           approaching the holiday weekend, holidays 

16           traditionally are more difficult for 

17           staffing.  That, compounded by the staffing 

18           crisis that we're experiencing, which is a 

19           result of the pandemic and other sort of -- 

20           you know, other factors we've talked about 

21           here at this hearing, you know, it became 

22           clear to us that we were no longer going to 

23           be able to meet the health and safety needs 

24           of the individuals living in that home.


                                                                   166

 1                  And it's a very delicate balance for 

 2           us, because we try very hard not to make 

 3           those type of temporary suspensions and make 

 4           those types of disruptions.  And so we wait a 

 5           period of time to hope that staffing will 

 6           level out.  We undertake efforts to recruit 

 7           people, to do overtime, things like that, so 

 8           that we have the staff available.  But when 

 9           it becomes clear to --

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Commissioner, 

11           real quick.   Where do we stand with those 

12           closures and places closing, the houses 

13           affected statewide -- where do we stand with 

14           that?  And how are we addressing that 

15           shortage?

16                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  I'll 

17           have to look at the exact homes in the 

18           Finger Lakes to understand.  My -- I believe 

19           that they are still temporarily suspended as 

20           a result of the staffing challenges.  Our 

21           staffing situation has not improved 

22           drastically since Thanksgiving, although it 

23           is improving, you know, little by little 

24           every month.


                                                                   167

 1                  And like we've talked about here, you 

 2           know, I'm hopeful that the investments that 

 3           are proposed in the Governor's budget will 

 4           help to improve the staffing situation 

 5           statewide.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO:  Thank you.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I'm sorry, you're 

 9           out of time.

10                  Assembly, it's still your turn, 

11           because I see several Assemblymembers and no 

12           Senators.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Okay.  So we go 

14           first to Assemblywoman Kelles and then 

15           Assemblywoman Griffin.

16                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Thank you so 

17           much.  

18                  I am new to the committee that I'm on, 

19           so I'm still picking up speed.  So I don't 

20           have many questions.  But one that's been 

21           brought up to me -- well, one, I want to say 

22           thank you, I did see that there was an 

23           increase in Independent Living Centers 

24           funding, I think by 1.6 million.  It hasn't 


                                                                   168

 1           been increased in a long time.  

 2                  So I know that this is sort of outside 

 3           the purview of your department, but it does 

 4           supplement or support the delivery of 

 5           independent living services.  And I see that 

 6           was increased by 16 million as well, which is 

 7           desperately needed.  

 8                  But there's another, the Child and 

 9           Adolescent Needs and Strengths assessment.  I 

10           have heard a lot of criticisms of that 

11           program, that it is a lengthy process, but 

12           it -- they haven't seen -- parents and 

13           families haven't seen a return on the 

14           investment of going through that assessment.  

15                  So I wanted to know if you are doing 

16           an evaluation, a 360 of that program as well, 

17           and how to implement the findings that are 

18           coming out of those assessments to more 

19           accurately and effectively help the families.

20                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.  

21           It's a great question, and the CANS is a 

22           really important tool.  And it's actually -- 

23           we are working on it now.  It is in sort of 

24           an implementation phase.  We are rolling it 


                                                                   169

 1           out.  

 2                  And what I would say about the CANS is 

 3           that it is a tool, it is an assessment that's 

 4           utilized by other systems.  It is an 

 5           evidence-based tool that's specifically 

 6           designed to understand the needs of children.  

 7                  Currently the assessment tools that we 

 8           use in the OPWDD system are not designed and 

 9           targeted specifically for children, which 

10           obviously children have very different needs 

11           than adults.  And we have to -- in order to 

12           understand their needs, right, we need to use 

13           certain methodologies aimed at understanding 

14           their needs.  The CANS looks specifically at 

15           behavior and some of those challenges as 

16           well, which is also very different than our 

17           current tool.  And while we are rolling it 

18           out, continuing to evaluate, you know, the 

19           rollout, continuing to make sure that it is 

20           smooth and that families, you know, are 

21           engaged appropriately.  

22                  You know, I don't -- there's no plan 

23           to change the tool, but we continue to work 

24           with families.  If there are discrepancies or 


                                                                   170

 1           if families identify something that doesn't 

 2           make sense to them, we have a process by 

 3           which families can bring that discrepancy to 

 4           our attention and we can engage with them, 

 5           make sure that it is corrected if it needs to 

 6           be, or explain why it looks the way it does.  

 7                  And we can make sure you can have that 

 8           information for your constituents, if that 

 9           would be helpful.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Yeah, that 

11           would be really helpful.  And if there could 

12           be a formal process for -- that we as 

13           legislators could direct our families to, to 

14           give feedback on the tool.  I understand that 

15           there's no plan right now to change it.  But 

16           given that it wasn't designed explicitly for 

17           children, you know, there is that concern.

18                  So that would be wonderful to see 

19           that, maybe on the website.

20                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.  

21           And just to clarify, it is specifically 

22           designed for children.  But we'll be happy 

23           to --

24                  (Overtalk.)


                                                                   171

 1                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Yeah.  But an 

 2           iterative process of honing it in to be 

 3           effective here.  Thank you, yes.  Absolutely.  

 4           Thank you for the clarification.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

 6           Griffin, then Assemblyman Ra.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Okay.  Thank 

 8           you, Chair.  

 9                  And thank you to Ms. Neifeld for being 

10           with us today.  

11                  I just wanted to echo the comments 

12           regarding the bonus as opposed to increasing 

13           the salary across the board.  

14                  And I wanted to turn attention to 

15           employment for people with disabilities.  I 

16           recently, just this past Friday, was at an 

17           event sponsored by NYSED, Center for 

18           Disability Services, New York Alliance for 

19           Inclusion and Innovation, and AHRC Nassau.  

20           And this event was to recognize and really 

21           celebrate the contribution that people with 

22           disabilities can make on our economy when 

23           they are hired by all kinds of businesses.  

24           And, you know, this event was all about that 


                                                                   172

 1           and showed, you know, the billions of dollars 

 2           people with disabilities make on our economy 

 3           by contributing to -- you know, being part of 

 4           our workforce.  And, you know, had 

 5           information posted about that.  

 6                  And then a smaller group, a nonprofit 

 7           in my community who does amazing things for 

 8           people with disabilities -- truly, truly 

 9           amazing -- and they have been embarking on 

10           this, trying to find employment for their 

11           range of people with disabilities.  You know, 

12           these are all people older than 21.  And she 

13           called me, and she's like, How do we find out 

14           more?  How do we learn what we can do?  

15                  And I wondered, can you provide -- you 

16           might not be able to provide it here, but 

17           could you send any information which could 

18           provide this group with how they can -- like, 

19           what steps they need to take to really help 

20           the people in their organization find 

21           employment?

22                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure, 

23           we'd be happy to.  We can connect offline and 

24           we can learn about that organization.  We can 


                                                                   173

 1           connect directly with them as well.  

 2                  And then also I think it's just worth 

 3           highlighting that in the Governor's State of 

 4           the State and in her Executive Budget 

 5           proposal, she has two really great proposals 

 6           around increasing employment opportunities 

 7           for people with developmental disabilities.  

 8           Part of it will be on us at OPWDD to improve 

 9           and make changes to, you know, our 

10           certification process so that more providers 

11           can provide employment services.  And then in 

12           the Executive Budget there's also a 

13           $2 million grant program which will grow to 

14           $10 million in the outyears that will be 

15           available to providers so they can help 

16           individuals develop the skills necessary to 

17           enter the workforce.  

18                  So we're really excited about that.

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Okay, thank 

20           you.  That's great to hear.  And I think 

21           those are two, you know, ideal proposals for 

22           this community.  So thank you very much.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  We 

24           go to Assemblyman Ra to close for questions.


                                                                   174

 1                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  

 2                  Good afternoon, Commissioner.  

 3                  I just wanted to go back a little bit 

 4           to two questions.  One was with regard to the 

 5           ARPA funding.  I was wondering if you could 

 6           provide any further detail as to the 

 7           retention efforts that are being aided 

 8           through that funding.

 9                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.  

10           So through the ARPA funding, we have two -- 

11           basically two different buckets of funding.  

12                  One is going directly to our direct 

13           support professionals.  That's $1.5 billion.  

14           That is going out in the form of a "Heroes" 

15           bonus, so that's an up to $1,000 bonus, you 

16           know, for individuals based on the number of 

17           hours they worked and the time -- you know, 

18           the duration of their employment throughout 

19           the pandemic.  

20                  There's a $500 bonus for individuals 

21           who choose to take the vaccine.  

22                  And then there are two additional 

23           bonuses that are meant to cover the two 

24           fiscal years of the pandemic that are the 


                                                                   175

 1           equivalent of 20 percent of the salary of the 

 2           DSP.  And we're working with our providers 

 3           now to get the important information back 

 4           that we need to be able to disburse those 

 5           funds, hopefully disbursing those within a 

 6           matter of, you know, the next six weeks or so 

 7           at most.

 8                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  

 9                  And I know this was somewhat asked, 

10           but, you know, like many of my colleagues we 

11           love the ideas of these investments being 

12           made -- bonuses, all this stuff is great.  

13           You know, increasing salaries this year is 

14           great.  But what commitment do we have from 

15           the administration that in the outyears we're 

16           going to be able to continue to build on that 

17           commitment and continue to increase salaries 

18           and actually get this workforce where they 

19           need to be to enable long-term retention?  

20                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Good 

21           question.  I mean, I think what we've seen 

22           this year, between the COLA, the bonuses, the 

23           major investments in OPWDD's budget and in 

24           this system and in people with developmental 


                                                                   176

 1           disabilities, it's just an incredible 

 2           commitment on behalf of the Governor to the 

 3           system and to the people that we support.  

 4                  You know, so I look forward to, you 

 5           know, implementing this budget, this enacted 

 6           budget, which I know the Legislature has a 

 7           major role in shaping the enacted budget, and 

 8           then to continue to support additional budget 

 9           efforts over the course of the next several 

10           years.  I have no reason to believe that the 

11           Governor's commitment to people with 

12           developmental disabilities will end after 

13           this fiscal year, and I know certainly the 

14           Legislature as well.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you.  And we 

16           look forward to working with you.  I think we 

17           all know that the prior administration had 

18           frankly, I'll say it, a disgraceful legacy 

19           with regard to these issues.  So I'm glad to 

20           see Governor Hochul making this a priority in 

21           this budget.  But I think we all recognize 

22           the longer-term needs.  So thank you.  

23                  Chairs, I will yield back my two 

24           minutes.


                                                                   177

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  We 

 2           do have one more:  Assemblymember Brown.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  Chair, I wasn't 

 4           going to ask a question or comment, but I 

 5           heard -- I was also talking to the president 

 6           of SUNY Stony Brook.  To what extent do you 

 7           collaborate with other agencies, like DOL or 

 8           the SUNY system, to find gainful employment 

 9           for people with disabilities?  Thank you.

10                  ACTING COMMISSIONER NEIFELD:  Sure.  

11           It's a great question.  And honestly, we 

12           collaborate everywhere, and we're really 

13           proud of those collaborations.  

14                  We do a lot of collaboration with the 

15           Department of Labor.  Commissioner Reardon 

16           and her team are incredibly supportive of 

17           both our direct support professionals and 

18           individuals with developmental disabilities 

19           gaining employment.  

20                  We have great partnerships with BOCES 

21           across the state, great partnerships with 

22           SUNY and CUNY.  We're doing a lot for our 

23           direct support professionals within the SUNY 

24           and CUNY systems, including access to their 


                                                                   178

 1           EOCs, working with them to create specific 

 2           credentialing and curriculum designed 

 3           directly for DSPs, to support the work that 

 4           they're doing and help them to obtain college 

 5           credit based on the work that they're doing.  

 6           We are meeting with them also to talk about 

 7           different ways to enhance the educational and 

 8           employment opportunities for people with 

 9           developmental disabilities.  

10                  And we work with a lot of other state 

11           agencies on lots of other issues -- really, 

12           anywhere that there is an opportunity for 

13           collaboration -- with Civil Service, with 

14           OMH.  We are all about that collaboration and 

15           that sort of cross-system understanding and 

16           approach to serving individuals, looking to 

17           break down those silos. 

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  Great.  Thank you.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

20                  So we go back to the Senate.  I think 

21           we're done with the Assembly.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  I 

23           think we are complete with questions for you, 

24           Acting Commissioner.  I don't see any other 


                                                                   179

 1           hands being waved at me madly.  

 2                  So I'm going to thank you very much 

 3           for your participation with us today, thank 

 4           you for your work on behalf of the state, 

 5           tell you to get back to work, and call up the 

 6           commissioner of the New York State Office of 

 7           Addiction Services and Supports, Dr. Chinazo 

 8           Cunningham.  

 9                  Are you with us, Dr. Cunningham?

10                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  I am.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Oh, hello.  Good. 

12           Welcome.

13                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Thank 

14           you.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Welcome to your 

16           first budget hearing, and congratulations on 

17           your confirmation through the Senate.

18                  So I think you might have already 

19           learned the rules of the road.  You have up 

20           to 10 minutes to highlight the key points of 

21           your testimony.  We all have your full 

22           testimony.  And afterwards, we will have 

23           chairs and rankers and other members ask you 

24           questions.


                                                                   180

 1                  With that, start your 10 minutes.

 2                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Great, 

 3           thank you.  

 4                  Good afternoon, Senator Krueger, 

 5           Assemblymember Weinstein, Senator Harckham, 

 6           and Assemblymember Steck.  My name is 

 7           Dr. Chinazo Cunningham, and I am the 

 8           commissioner of the New York State Office of 

 9           Addiction Services and Supports, or OASAS. 

10           Thank you for the opportunity to present 

11           Governor Hochul's fiscal year 2022-2023 

12           Executive Budget as it pertains to OASAS.  

13                  As you are aware, the COVID-19 

14           pandemic and the overdose epidemic have 

15           brought unprecedented challenges to our 

16           system of care and its workforce.  As a 

17           primary care physician working in a 

18           Bronx hospital at the height of the pandemic, 

19           I personally experienced the impact firsthand 

20           while on the front lines.  So first and 

21           foremost, I would like to acknowledge the 

22           individuals in our field for their tremendous 

23           courage and dedication to ensuring that OASAS 

24           services have remained accessible to those in 


                                                                   181

 1           need throughout the pandemic.  

 2                  As we look ahead, lessons learned will 

 3           help guide efforts to improve access to 

 4           addiction prevention, treatment, recovery, 

 5           and harm reduction services.  We are focused 

 6           on building our system back to full 

 7           utilization, while also maintaining and 

 8           enhancing initiatives that have proven 

 9           extremely valuable in the delivery of 

10           services, particularly in underserved 

11           communities.  We will continue working with 

12           our Opioid Treatment Programs on the 

13           expansion of mobile treatment and telehealth, 

14           as well as building on our medication 

15           delivery experiences to implement new and 

16           innovative services statewide.  

17                  To continue supporting these efforts 

18           and to help expand the reach of our services, 

19           Governor Hochul has proposed a budget that 

20           will ensure OASAS has the resources needed to 

21           meet these ongoing challenges.  The proposed 

22           OASAS budget appropriates more than 

23           $1.5 billion, including approximately 

24           $164 million for state operations, 


                                                                   182

 1           $102 million for Capital Projects, and 

 2           $1.3 billion for Aid to Localities.  This is 

 3           an increase of over $543 million, or a 

 4           56 percent increase from fiscal year 

 5           2021-2022.  

 6                  The budget proposal reflects opioid 

 7           stewardship funds, which have been 

 8           specifically allocated to harm reduction and 

 9           initiatives to make treatment and medication 

10           more affordable; and opioid settlement funds, 

11           to expand opioid addiction prevention, 

12           treatment, and recovery services, consistent 

13           with the terms of the settlement agreements.  

14                  OASAS has engaged with stakeholders to 

15           fully understand issues our field has faced 

16           as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and the 

17           overdose epidemic.  During these 17 statewide 

18           meetings, we repeatedly heard from providers 

19           and advocates that supporting the workforce 

20           is critical and a top priority.  We fully 

21           agree with this.  That's why it was extremely 

22           important that the budget included a 

23           5.4 percent human services cost-of-living 

24           adjustment.  To further recognize and help to 


                                                                   183

 1           retain staff, the budget provides up to a 

 2           $3,000 recruitment and retention bonus for 

 3           frontline and direct care services staff, in 

 4           addition to a minimum wage increase for OASAS 

 5           providers.  

 6                  Consistent with that feedback, and to 

 7           support our provider system, we will reinvest 

 8           the funds realized from the transition from 

 9           Medicaid fee-for-service to Medicaid managed 

10           care back into behavioral health services. 

11           Funding is allocated to help leverage 

12           enhanced federal Medicaid dollars for home 

13           and community-based services.  Providers will 

14           also be supported with increased capital 

15           allowances for minor alterations and 

16           improvements for OASAS-funded facilities.  

17                  The Executive Budget supports OASAS's 

18           crucial mission and ongoing efforts to ensure 

19           equitable access to life-saving treatment, 

20           including medication treatment.  This 

21           includes innovative initiatives that 

22           strengthen and modernize our outpatient 

23           system.  

24                  To ensure we bring medication 


                                                                   184

 1           treatment to where people are, we are 

 2           expanding our Opioid Treatment Programs 

 3           throughout the state by implementing a 

 4           multipronged approach.  First, we will invest 

 5           in new mobile methadone units and retrofit 

 6           existing mobile units.  We will continue to 

 7           leverage telehealth by installing equipment 

 8           on mobile transportation units.  

 9                  Second, we will remove financial and 

10           geographic barriers that prohibit people from 

11           accessing evidence-based medication treatment 

12           by requiring pharmacies to stock medications 

13           to prevent overdose and treat opioid use 

14           disorder.  We will also implement a Treatment 

15           Affordability Initiative and a Medication 

16           Affordability Initiative to assist uninsured 

17           and underinsured individuals obtain 

18           treatment, including life-saving medications.  

19                  Likewise, the Behavioral Health Ombuds 

20           Project will receive additional support to 

21           assist individuals in navigating their 

22           insurance and assisting them with maximizing 

23           coverage for mental health and substance use 

24           services statewide.  


                                                                   185

 1                  Additionally, the budget includes a 

 2           statewide Non-Medical Transportation 

 3           Initiative to help individuals access 

 4           prevention, treatment, recovery, and harm 

 5           reduction services -- further breaking down 

 6           identified barriers to care.  

 7                  As the state and country continue to 

 8           experience unprecedented rates of overdose 

 9           deaths, we must implement strategies aimed at 

10           meeting individuals where they are, to help 

11           keep them alive while we work to engage them 

12           in services.  The budget supports this goal 

13           with the establishment of a new Division of 

14           Harm Reduction within OASAS to develop and 

15           incorporate these strategies across the 

16           continuum of care.  

17                  This unit will work collaboratively 

18           with the Department of Health to support 

19           individuals most at risk by expanding access 

20           to opioid overdose prevention kits, safety 

21           kits, fentanyl test strips, and sterile 

22           syringes; and developing a public awareness 

23           campaign specifically focused on preventing 

24           overdose deaths in public settings.  


                                                                   186

 1                  We also know how important ongoing 

 2           support services are to helping individuals 

 3           remain healthy and maintain their recovery.  

 4           Safe, stable housing is a core component of 

 5           recovery and reintegration into the 

 6           community.  Therefore, the budget provides 

 7           funding for short-term transitional housing 

 8           for individuals leaving OASAS residential 

 9           treatment or correctional facilities who 

10           cannot otherwise access permanent housing.  

11                  The budget also gives OASAS the 

12           ability to develop standards and voluntary 

13           certification for Recovery Supportive 

14           Housing.  Recovery Supportive Housing 

15           provides safe environments and mutual support 

16           for individuals in recovery.  OASAS 

17           certification of these programs would ensure  

18           that individuals in recovery are protected 

19           from potentially predatory housing practices.  

20                  Finally, the budget allows us to 

21           continue advancing our prevention initiatives 

22           through a comprehensive approach which 

23           includes educational activities, raising 

24           public awareness, early interventions, and 


                                                                   187

 1           environmental change strategies.  We will 

 2           also expand the Alcohol Awareness Program to 

 3           the Substance Use Awareness Program, to 

 4           promote education rather than penalty for 

 5           violations related to underage alcohol and 

 6           cannabis use.  

 7                  As we continue to manage the system of 

 8           addiction prevention, treatment, recovery, 

 9           and harm-reduction services, our number-one 

10           priority is to ensure the safety and 

11           well-being of those who are most vulnerable.  

12           The budget will support funding for all of 

13           these critical initiatives I discussed and 

14           allow OASAS to meet the needs of those we 

15           serve.  

16                  I'm excited and ready to work on the 

17           many challenges ahead at OASAS, and I look 

18           forward to working alongside you as we 

19           continue striving to help all those who have 

20           been impacted by substance use and addiction 

21           throughout New York State.  

22                  Thank you.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

24           much, Dr. Cunningham.


                                                                   188

 1                  And the first questioner will be the 

 2           chair of the OASAS committee, Pete Harckham.

 3                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Thank you very 

 4           much, Madam Chair.

 5                  Dr. Cunningham, it's great to have you 

 6           aboard.  Welcome.  Thank you for your 

 7           testimony.  And thank you for your 

 8           conversations since you have joined.  It's an 

 9           open-door policy, and it's much, much 

10           appreciated.  So thank you.

11                  A few questions for you.  First, just 

12           a general statement in the sense that we're 

13           at a time of real peril and real promise.  

14           You know, peril, as you know, because of the 

15           historic highs in overdose deaths.  But 

16           promise in a new Governor with a 

17           collaborative style who understands this 

18           issue; a new commissioner, obviously, which 

19           we're pleased about; and new funding.  But 

20           some of that funding is blood money coming 

21           from corporations who contributed greatly to 

22           the deaths of many members of our 

23           communities.  And those families want us to 

24           really make sure that we're spending this 


                                                                   189

 1           money wisely on evidence-based treatment, 

 2           something that you believe strongly in.  So, 

 3           you know, that's the spirit in which I ask 

 4           these questions today.

 5                  We appreciate the Governor 

 6           understanding the workforce issue.  And as 

 7           we've heard from other departments with 

 8           workforce initiatives, we're discovering that 

 9           within each agency and each department, some 

10           people are eligible and some people are not 

11           eligible.  So who exactly in the OASAS system 

12           is eligible for the COLA, eligible for 

13           certain bonuses and whatever retention money 

14           is available, and who might not be?

15                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Right.  

16           Thank you.  So, you know, I just want to 

17           reiterate how important it is to support the 

18           workforce.  I mean, this is something that we 

19           hear consistently with all of the meetings 

20           that we have with our constituents and our 

21           advocates and programs.

22                  So, you know, the bonuses are really 

23           for direct people, those who are providing 

24           direct patient services, right, on the 


                                                                   190

 1           frontline.  So we are still, you know, 

 2           working out the details of exactly who that 

 3           means.  But we recognize that this is, you 

 4           know, absolutely critical for the workforce.

 5                  In terms of the cost-of-living 

 6           adjustment, that's 5.4 percent, that's really 

 7           going to be across all of the programs that 

 8           are with OASAS.

 9                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Right.  And will 

10           any of the for-profit providers be eligible 

11           for this funding, or just like the prior 

12           federal funding that dealt with employee 

13           issues last year that was only nonprofits?

14                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  From 

15           my recollection I know that some of this is 

16           limited to not-for-profits.  But I can get 

17           back to you with the specifics for these 

18           different initiatives.

19                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  All right, thank 

20           you.  Yeah, I know they'd appreciate that.

21                  Let's continue on the line of the 

22           federal money.  You know, the SAMHSA money 

23           has come up today in relation to OMH.  We 

24           received a $100 million tranche and then a 


                                                                   191

 1           $95 million tranche.  It's not clearly 

 2           evident in the budget where exactly that 

 3           money is, because it's kind of woven in.  Can 

 4           you explain to members what that money is 

 5           being used for and whether that was 

 6           supplementing state efforts or supplanting 

 7           state efforts?

 8                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  

 9           Absolutely.  So I would just start out by 

10           saying that these dollars were not 

11           supplanting dollars but in fact supplementing 

12           dollars.  So I just want to make that clear.

13                  And so I can certainly go through -- 

14           you know, we have given out already over 

15           $70 million in funding opportunities that 

16           have been announced, of the total of 

17           $230 million.  And so our first priority here 

18           was really to stabilize programs and to 

19           stabilize our workforce.  And so $20 million 

20           was given for stabilizating organizations, 

21           and nearly $20 million for stabilizing the 

22           workforce.

23                  In addition, we want to ensure access 

24           to medication treatment, and so that includes 


                                                                   192

 1           medication delivery systems for methadone, 

 2           mobile medication units, a regional network 

 3           for transportation so people have access to 

 4           that medication.  We've also invested a 

 5           million dollars in transitional housing, 1.5 

 6           million in telehealth infrastructure.  In 

 7           addition, there's huge investments in 

 8           prevention, including over $10 million in 

 9           primary prevention infrastructure, $4 million 

10           in prevention community coalitions, 

11           collaborations with the New York State 

12           Education Department.  And then also recovery 

13           youth clubhouses received $1.8 million, and 

14           then to our peers as well.

15                  So there's really a variety of ways in 

16           which, you know, all across our system 

17           prevention, treatment and recovery services 

18           have really been strengthened and expanded.

19                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Terrific, thanks.

20                  Let's talk a little bit about some of 

21           the new initiatives with the settlement 

22           dollars and the opioid stewardship dollars.  

23                  Number one, the Governor proposes 

24           fully funding the Ombudsman Program for the 


                                                                   193

 1           first time, which is very welcome.  But in 

 2           the prior years, the old -- half of the 

 3           Ombudsman Program that was funded was funded 

 4           with kind of dubious funding from Office of 

 5           Financial Services settlements for non-parity 

 6           compliance issues.  And that's not 

 7           necessarily a sustainable stream.

 8                  Are we now just fully funding the 

 9           Ombudsman Program straight out of budget 

10           line?

11                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  From 

12           my knowledge, it still is out of parity 

13           funds.  I know we have $1.5 million this year 

14           to really strengthen and expand the efforts 

15           there across the communities.  We know this 

16           is a really big issue around parity, 

17           absolutely, and we're committed to addressing 

18           that.  And so there is this expansion of 

19           services there.

20                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Yeah, I mean the 

21           focus on parity is a good thing.  I just 

22           question the long-term sustainability of us 

23           relying on the Ombudsman Program coming from 

24           fines versus us, you know, line-iteming it in 


                                                                   194

 1           the budget.  But, you know, that's something 

 2           we can talk about moving forward.

 3                  One of the other new initiatives the 

 4           Governor discusses is creating an Office of 

 5           Harm Reduction within OASAS.  And it looks 

 6           like for this year a lot of the 

 7           harm-reduction services are still going to be 

 8           done in the Health Department at the AIDS 

 9           Institute.  

10                  What is the plan for the Office of 

11           Harm Reduction?  Will there be duplication?  

12           Will there be services brought in from the 

13           Health Department?  How is that going to 

14           work?

15                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Yeah, 

16           great, thank you, Senator Harckham.  As you 

17           know, this is something that I feel very 

18           strongly about.  Harm-reduction services are 

19           evidence-based services that are needed now 

20           more than ever, as more and more people are 

21           dying.  

22                  So we work very collaboratively with 

23           the Department of Health.  We're absolutely 

24           not interested in duplicating services here.  


                                                                   195

 1           We meet regularly, and this was one of the 

 2           priorities when I first started, is to have 

 3           those regular meetings, which have already 

 4           begun.

 5                  And so some of the services will be 

 6           really provided with DOH when we collaborate 

 7           with them, and some of them will be more 

 8           housed in OASAS.  And so, you know, I think 

 9           that's less important in terms of which 

10           agency it falls under, but just more that 

11           people are getting the services that they 

12           need.

13                  And so for us, having a new division 

14           of harm reduction will work really closely 

15           with the Office of Drug User Health in the 

16           Department of Health.

17                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  All right, thanks.

18                  And then my last two minutes I want to 

19           talk a little bit about co-occurring 

20           disorders.  I don't want to get into the 

21           debate about merger or no merger; you know, 

22           that's a bigger debate outside of this.  But 

23           I want to discuss what the Governor is 

24           recommending in her budget, and there's 


                                                                   196

 1           additional funding for co-occurring 

 2           disorders.  What exactly is that going for?  

 3                  And how are we moving our system 

 4           towards a no-wrong-door system?  Because we 

 5           still hear on a daily basis that patients are 

 6           turned away from treatment for presenting 

 7           with co-occurring mental health disorders.  

 8                  And how do we get to a system where 

 9           there is no wrong door?  Some of our 

10           providers, as we know, are terrific about 

11           this, and others have not evolved yet, I 

12           should say politely.  So in the last 

13           minute-five, I'll let you talk about that.

14                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Great.  

15           So we definitely recognize the importance of 

16           co-occurring disorders, absolutely.  And 

17           about half of the people who come into 

18           OASAS-certified programs have symptoms of 

19           mental health symptoms, and many of them have 

20           trauma.  

21                  So first what I would say is that we 

22           require mental health screening upon 

23           enrollment into all of our programs, so that 

24           should be happening a hundred percent of the 


                                                                   197

 1           time when people enter into the 

 2           OASAS-certified programs.  We also do 

 3           trainings, we work closely with the Office of 

 4           Mental Health and do trainings so that our 

 5           providers identify and can treat or refer 

 6           people with mental health conditions to get 

 7           appropriate treatment.  And then we also 

 8           cross-train them in terms of substance use 

 9           disorders, the OMH staff.

10                  And then I would just say going 

11           forward, you know, in terms of no wrong door, 

12           we have crisis stabilization centers and 

13           CCBHC, which are the certified community 

14           behavioral health centers, which are dually 

15           funded by OASAS and OMH and for exactly this 

16           reason, where there's no wrong door, 

17           particularly in the crisis stabilization 

18           centers that are 24/7 availability.

19                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Thank you, 

20           Commissioner.  

21                  Thank you, Madam Chair.  My time is 

22           up.  Depending on what my colleagues ask, I 

23           may or may not come back for three more 

24           minutes at the end.  Thank you.


                                                                   198

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Very good.  We'll 

 2           check with you.

 3                  Assemblywoman.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We're going to 

 5           go to our ranker on Alcoholism, Assemblyman 

 6           Brown.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  Thank you, Chair.

 8                  Can you hear me okay?

 9                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Yes.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  Okay.  Hi, Doctor, 

11           how are you?

12                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Good.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  Good to follow up 

14           with you.  I enjoyed our conversation last 

15           week.

16                  So I don't have much time, so I'm 

17           going to have to fire away at some questions.  

18           The first one, which I'll save -- if you 

19           could answer last, actually:  How do you 

20           expect to spend the opioid settlement money?  

21           If you could just drill down a little bit on 

22           what I heard in your overview.

23                  I also want to know about how you 

24           anticipate how much cost increase there will 


                                                                   199

 1           be with the legalization of marijuana, and 

 2           how you will deal with adults and children 

 3           with marijuana disorder.  We know from 

 4           Colorado, the Rocky Mountain Study, that 

 5           there was an increase, a spike in marijuana 

 6           use disorder after legalization.  Is there 

 7           anything in the budget to address that?  

 8           We'll start with that question.

 9                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  So in 

10           terms of the, yeah, adult-use cannabis 

11           legalization, so because the -- you know, 

12           this has not been implemented yet, it's 

13           unclear to us in terms of the dollar amount 

14           that we will receive from the taxation.  So 

15           it's very difficult to speak on that.

16                  But what I do want to say is that we 

17           certainly, you know, are prepared really to 

18           address issues, and so we've been doing 

19           webinars with our providers, informing them 

20           about legalization, informing them about, you 

21           know, sort of the risks and benefits of 

22           cannabis, developing toolkits for effective 

23           prevention strategies.  We're doing public 

24           education and media campaigns, including 


                                                                   200

 1           underage use, and we're expanding our Alcohol 

 2           Awareness Program to be Substance Use 

 3           Awareness Program, particularly around 

 4           cannabis and underage use so that, you know, 

 5           instead of having penalties people can get 

 6           education around that.

 7                  So that's -- so those are some of the 

 8           examples.  And then our treatment system is 

 9           really ready to provide cannabis-use disorder 

10           treatment.  It has been and will continue to, 

11           you know, going forward.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  That's great.

13                  Are you looking to do any limits on 

14           people who have cannabis-use disorder to 

15           purchase marijuana at dispensaries?

16                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  That's 

17           a good question.  That's not something that 

18           we've discussed here at OASAS.  I mean, you 

19           know, we also work with the Office of 

20           Cannabis Management, and so I think that 

21           would be a discussion to have with them.  But 

22           yeah, that's an interesting idea.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  I was listening 

24           earlier with the new crisis hotline, the 988 


                                                                   201

 1           number that OMH is putting forward.  Have you 

 2           discussed about crossover between the 988 

 3           number and the Hope New York number?

 4                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  

 5           Absolutely.  And so the 988 number is really 

 6           for behavioral health, so not just specific 

 7           to mental health but also substance use 

 8           disorders.

 9                  And so, you know, we're in discussions 

10           right now about the various sort of hotlines 

11           that we have, and making sure that we don't 

12           duplicate but that, again, we expand the 

13           possibility for people to access services and 

14           get the help that they need.

15                  And so, you know, going forward we are 

16           going to be figuring out how they all sort of 

17           work together.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  Yeah, because we 

19           would hate to have someone call one number 

20           and not be able to be transferred over to get 

21           the help that they need.

22                  So I want to go back to my first 

23           question.  With the opioid settlement money, 

24           it seems to me that with the crisis of 


                                                                   202

 1           overdoses, you know, reaching the heights 

 2           that it has, has there been any discussion 

 3           about creating an opioid task force and using 

 4           some of that money for that purpose?  

 5                  Did you hear the question?

 6                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Yes, I 

 7           did.  I mean, I know that there is the 

 8           existing Heroin Board that has been around 

 9           for a while.  And then I know that we have 

10           the Opioid Settlement Board, that is in the 

11           process of being constituted.  So -- but, you 

12           know, as far as another board, that's not 

13           something that I've heard.

14                  You know, we also have met -- we've 

15           had 17 forums across the state, meeting with 

16           our stakeholders to understand what our 

17           providers and people affected with substance 

18           use, what they want the dollars to be used 

19           for.  So we certainly are -- you know, want 

20           to hear what our providers and the 

21           communities have to say in terms of how these 

22           dollars are spent.

23                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  {Inaudible; Zoom 

24           interference.}


                                                                   203

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman 

 2           Brown, you're breaking up quite a bit.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  Thank you for 

 4           the -- I will -- I want to follow up with you 

 5           about possible codification of that in 

 6           New York law.  

 7                  So I yield the rest of my time back to 

 8           the chair.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Actually, the 

10           time is up.  So --

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  Did you hear that 

12           last part in terms of the CDC guidelines for 

13           prescription opioids?

14                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Oh, I 

15           didn't exactly catch that but --

16                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  I'm sorry, the 

17           time's up and it's --

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN BROWN:  Hello?  Hello?

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We're going to 

20           go back to the Senate.  If you can just 

21           respond in writing to us.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  Thank 

23           you.

24                  Okay, is Senator Oberacker available?  


                                                                   204

 1           I wasn't sure he had questions.

 2                  (No response.)

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I don't hear him.  

 4                  Okay, then I'm going to actually go 

 5           back to Senator Harckham for his final three 

 6           minutes as the chair.

 7                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Thank you very 

 8           much, Madam Chair.

 9                  All right, a couple of things that we 

10           didn't get to talk about.  One is 

11           transportation.  You know, we've spoken about 

12           that before, what a challenge that is for -- 

13           to get to other services to create a holistic 

14           recovery environment, especially in our rural 

15           areas and urban transit deserts.

16                  There are two pilots that were funded 

17           in the budget a year ago, one for rural, one 

18           for urban, that were supposed to come online 

19           this year.  Do you know what the status of 

20           that -- those two projects may be?

21                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Yes.  

22           So the RFP for that demonstration program for 

23           transportation is being finalized and will be 

24           released anytime soon.  So I can certainly 


                                                                   205

 1           let you know when that RFP has been posted 

 2           and, you know, made available to the public.

 3                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  All right, that's 

 4           excellent.  Thank you.

 5                  And then what is the other -- there is 

 6           enhanced transportation money proposed by the 

 7           Governor.  What is that money supposed to be 

 8           going for?

 9                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Right, 

10           so there's also non-medical transportation.  

11           So that's specific to people, you know, 

12           affected by substance use disorders but will 

13           allow for transportation outside of just the 

14           typical appointments, like medical 

15           appointments.  And so for jobs, for 

16           childcare, for other needs that are -- you 

17           know, to help support recovery.

18                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  So it's actually 

19           very similar to those pilots in many ways.

20                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Yes.  

21           Yes.  It's just strengthening and expanding 

22           them, yeah, further.

23                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Great.  That's good 

24           news, thank you.


                                                                   206

 1                  And then the last has to do with the 

 2           construction side, which was historically 

 3           done by the individual treatment providers, 

 4           and then apply for a license.  We're now 

 5           bringing DASNY in, which can use DASNY's 

 6           purchasing power and their expertise.  That 

 7           can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending 

 8           on who you speak with and their opinion of 

 9           DASNY.  No offense, but -- so how is that 

10           exactly going to work?  I mean, the folks at 

11           the Dormitory Authority, you know, work very 

12           hard, they're overworked.  

13                  So how is this process going to work 

14           to fit in with what they do?

15                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Right.  

16           So, you know, so we'll be using state-owned 

17           land, right, and DASNY to really facilitate 

18           the construction of programs.  

19                  You know, we have heard about the 

20           delays.  And then we also know -- in terms of 

21           a lot of the providers don't necessarily have 

22           the expertise, right, for these sort of 

23           construction and capital improvements.  

24                  So we believe this will actually 


                                                                   207

 1           facilitate the process.  We will bring 

 2           programs in early, you know, to work with 

 3           DASNY in terms of what the sites look like.  

 4           And, you know, making sure that communities 

 5           are also involved in terms of the needs and 

 6           working with local government units.

 7                  So, you know, we think that this is 

 8           going to be a substantial improvement and 

 9           just will have less delays and really will 

10           facilitate new programs and new buildings.

11                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Well, thank you 

12           very much, Commissioner.  

13                  And thank you, Madam Chair.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

15                  We're going to go to Assemblywoman 

16           Gallagher now.

17                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER:  Hi, thank 

18           you so much for being here and for answering 

19           these questions.

20                  So in New York City we have some pilot 

21           OPCs, overdose prevention centers.  And as of 

22           January 25th, we have saved over 85 lives 

23           with reversed overdoses.  So I'm interested 

24           in how we can make sure that these get 


                                                                   208

 1           expanded across the state.  I know that many 

 2           of them are privately funded or they require 

 3           federal exemption.  But I know that we've 

 4           been lobbying and having -- Linda Rosenthal 

 5           has a great bill about adding OPCs across the 

 6           state.  I'm wondering what we need to do to 

 7           push that forward.

 8                  And then my second question is do we 

 9           have a proactive plan for handling fentanyl?  

10           And is there a way that we could work to make 

11           fentanyl test strips more widely available 

12           across the state?  And how can I be a partner 

13           on that?

14                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Great.  

15           Thank you.  I'm going to start with the last, 

16           in terms of fentanyl.  

17                  So as you know, fentanyl is really 

18           driving much of the overdose deaths, and so 

19           this is really an important issue.  So, you 

20           know -- and really I think this speaks much 

21           more to harm reduction in general and all of 

22           the harm-reduction strategies, which are 

23           really a continuum of strategies, right.  

24                  And, you know, making sure that people 


                                                                   209

 1           are aware of fentanyl through fentanyl test 

 2           strips is absolutely part of that.  And that 

 3           is something that we are expanding with this 

 4           budget.  

 5                  And then also just expanding nalaxone, 

 6           right?  So that's medication to reduce death 

 7           when people overdose.  And so again, that 

 8           will work with fentanyl, but people may need 

 9           to have multiple doses.  So again, making 

10           sure that people have that medication to 

11           reverse overdoses.  

12                  In terms of, you know, overdose 

13           prevention centers, as you mentioned, this is 

14           not something -- these programs are not 

15           receiving funding that's from the state, they 

16           are not regulated or certified or monitored 

17           by OASAS.  And so, you know, they are part of 

18           the harm-reduction continuum, but we really 

19           are not funding them or certifying them or 

20           monitoring them.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER:  Can I ask 

22           how we could make the fentanyl test strips 

23           easily distributed?  Because I know of very 

24           few places in New York City where you can 


                                                                   210

 1           actually get them.  And I've actually had a 

 2           flood of requests in my own efforts at being 

 3           like a harm-reduction advocate.

 4                  So I would really like to know how can 

 5           we expand this process across the state.

 6                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Yeah, 

 7           absolutely.  I mean, right now in the budget 

 8           there's $7 million, you know, towards 

 9           harm-reduction services.  And so this is 

10           absolutely part of this.  And so working with 

11           community members, harm-reduction 

12           organizations, community providers to see 

13           where the need is, and really just expanding 

14           access to them is something that, you know, 

15           we definitely look forward to doing.

16                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER:  Okay.  So if 

17           I request for some of that harm-reduction 

18           money to be especially for test strips for 

19           New York City organizations, that would work.

20                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Yes.

21                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER:  Okay, thank 

22           you.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

24                  We go to Assemblywoman Kelles.


                                                                   211

 1                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Thank you so 

 2           much.  

 3                  I have a few questions, actually, from 

 4           my district, from the Alcohol and Drug 

 5           Council in my district.  

 6                  One of them is that they were awarded 

 7           funds in October/November, and they haven't 

 8           heard anything about them, they haven't been 

 9           disbursed.  It was a small amount, it was 

10           $50,000.  But she was saying across the state 

11           all the providers that received funding from 

12           the SAPT workforce investment and the SAPT 

13           stabilization are having similar experiences.  

14           So I was curious when they can expect those 

15           disbursements.

16                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Yes.  

17           So, you know, we're in the good position to 

18           be, you know, sending money out the door, and 

19           in order to do this with the SAPT 

20           supplemental funds, we've just hired many new 

21           staff members in order to help with this 

22           process.  

23                  So we know that there have been some 

24           delays, but we are hiring up and really very 


                                                                   212

 1           much focused on getting the dollars out the 

 2           door.  So this is absolutely a priority of 

 3           ours.

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Okay.  And the 

 5           other comment I've been hearing is that the 

 6           COLAs from OASAS provider staff were not 

 7           implemented for over a decade in the last 

 8           administration.  So I just wanted to note 

 9           that this has resulted in nearly -- as you 

10           know, of course -- a 30 percent disparity 

11           related to other fields, including other ones 

12           that we've heard from today that have also 

13           been hurt over the last 10 years.

14                  So what plans beyond the 5.4 percent 

15           COLA adjustments are there to address the 

16           base funding rates for OASAS funding programs 

17           that they can -- so that you can do the 

18           recruitment, train and retain the workforce?  

19           And can you talk a little bit more about 

20           funding that you're putting into workforce 

21           development, in particular addressing 

22           difficulties in the licensing process?

23                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  

24           Absolutely.  So, you know, we recognize, 


                                                                   213

 1           again, that there's a huge priority in terms 

 2           of the workforce and strengthening and 

 3           stabilizing the workforce.

 4                  So as you mentioned, we have the 

 5           cost-of-living adjustment, we also have the 

 6           bonuses that are up to $3,000 for those, you 

 7           know, who are frontline providers.  We have a 

 8           $2 million increase for minimum wage 

 9           increase.  The SAPT supplement funding, the 

10           first allocations were to strengthen the 

11           workforce, and that was $19 million.

12                  We also have initiatives that we're 

13           working on like loan repayment, scholarships, 

14           college credits and these, you know, kinds of 

15           incentives, to attract people and keep people 

16           as well.  And then we're also reinvesting 

17           funds from F -- from the --

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  I'm going to 

19           just -- yes, absolutely, I've heard of those.  

20           One question.  Has there been any analysis of 

21           a potential benefit cliff from the bonuses 

22           that are being disbursed?

23                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  I have 

24           not heard of an analysis like that.


                                                                   214

 1                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Right.  It 

 2           concerns me a little bit, because some of the 

 3           people that -- the base pays are so low that 

 4           it could be something that could tip them 

 5           over.  I'd love if there could be some 

 6           analysis in that disbursement to not hurt 

 7           people.

 8                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  

 9           Understood, yes.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Thank you so 

11           much.  I appreciate it.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

13                  Assemblywoman Griffin.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Okay, thank 

15           you very much.  And thank you for being here, 

16           Dr. Cunningham.

17                  I -- just two questions I wanted to 

18           ask, is I was really glad to see the budget 

19           is including more money for non-medical 

20           transportation, for individuals to access 

21           treatment, recovery, harm-reduction services, 

22           et cetera.  And I just wondered how much that 

23           is.  I know, speaking with a lot of families 

24           and people that are in recovery, the families 


                                                                   215

 1           in recovery, that seems to be a huge problem.

 2                  I represent Long Island, which is, you 

 3           know, a very congested area.  But there's a 

 4           lot of people that just -- you know, they're 

 5           kind of like they go -- leave the rehab unit 

 6           and they really don't have much assistance as 

 7           far as, you know, job placement, as far as 

 8           transportation.  There are some nonprofit 

 9           organizations that really run themselves 

10           ragged on Long Island bringing people to 

11           where they need to be.

12                  And I just wondered what kind of -- 

13           what kind of amount of money is being put 

14           towards this important area?

15                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  Right.  

16           So for -- as part of the increase in the 

17           budget, for non-medical transportation now 

18           it's -- we have $1 million going towards 

19           that.  And, you know, earlier we heard about 

20           the transportation demonstration program.  

21           That's another $500,000 going towards that.  

22           We also have, you know, additional funding 

23           from the SAPT grant dollars going towards 

24           transportation as well.


                                                                   216

 1                  So there's many pots, I would say, of 

 2           dollars that are really addressing 

 3           transportation, and the one in the SAPT 

 4           grants is $4.2 million.  So those are just, 

 5           you know, some of the ones from the different 

 6           pots of money.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  And another 

 8           question is, again, you know, I represent an 

 9           area of Nassau County, but Nassau County has 

10           an extremely high addiction rate, has had an 

11           extremely high number of overdoses.  But yet 

12           there's really not enough accessible 

13           treatment facilities.

14                  And I wondered if that's part of -- is 

15           there any plan in OASAS to really focus in on 

16           areas that have, you know, very high rates of 

17           addiction, of overdose, but yet have very low 

18           rates of rehab facilities and accessibility 

19           to that?

20                  OASAS COMMISSIONER CUNNINGHAM:  

21           Absolutely.  And so this is, you know, one 

22           example of bringing medication, bringing 

23           treatment to where people are.

24                  And so examples of this include the 


                                                                   217

 1           mobile medication unit, where this is 

 2           something we, you know, plan to fund 35 of 

 3           them in really locations that don't have 

 4           access to medication and treatment, and this 

 5           is one way to address that. 

 6                  We also have medication units, similar 

 7           ideas as, you know, bringing treatment to 

 8           places where they're not.  So this is 

 9           definitely a priority in the budget to really 

10           bring medication and treatment to where 

11           people are.

12                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GRIFFIN:  Okay.  Thank 

13           you very much.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Assembly, are we 

15           done with Assemblymembers?  Yes.  I'm not 

16           hearing you, but I know you're there.  She's 

17           on the phone.  No problem.

18                  So Commissioner, with that, I'm going 

19           to thank you very much for your participation 

20           today, wish you all the best for your true 

21           challenges as our new commissioner of OASAS.  

22           We will all be following up with you, I am 

23           sure.

24                  And I am going to next turn it over to 


                                                                   218

 1           the New York State Justice Center for the 

 2           Protection of people with Special Needs, 

 3           Executive Director Denise Miranda.

 4                  Denise, are you with us?

 5                  EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MIRANDA:  I am 

 6           here.  Good afternoon, Senator.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Good afternoon, 

 8           Denise.

 9                  So you've been with us before, so you 

10           know --

11                  EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MIRANDA:  Yes.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  -- share with us 

13           in under 10 minutes, if possible, the 

14           highlights of your testimony -- we all have 

15           the full testimony -- and then we will ask 

16           you questions.  Thank you.

17                  EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MIRANDA:  Thank 

18           you.

19                  Good afternoon, Chairs Brouk, Krueger, 

20           Mannion, Abinanti, Gunther, and Weinstein, as 

21           well as other distinguished members of the 

22           New York Senate and Assembly.  My name is 

23           Denise Miranda, and I am the executive 

24           director of the New York State Justice Center 


                                                                   219

 1           for the Protection of People with Special 

 2           Needs.  

 3                  I would like to thank you for the 

 4           opportunity to testify regarding 

 5           Governor Hochul's Executive Budget proposal.  

 6                  The Justice Center opened its doors 

 7           nearly nine years ago. In that time, we have 

 8           investigated tens of thousands of abuse and 

 9           neglect cases.  Since 2013, more than 

10           800 people have committed egregious acts of 

11           abuse and neglect, and they are now barred 

12           from working with people with special needs.  

13                  Hundreds of thousands of criminal 

14           background checks have been completed, 

15           keeping violent offenders out of facilities.  

16           Abusers are no longer free to move from 

17           facility to facility unchallenged.  There is 

18           no doubt that vulnerable New Yorkers are now 

19           safer than before.  

20                  But the Justice Center's work goes 

21           well beyond incident investigations.  We also 

22           place great emphasis on preventing reportable 

23           incidents from happening.  The agency's abuse 

24           prevention efforts are critical to advancing 


                                                                   220

 1           our mission to support and protect the 

 2           health, safety, and dignity of people with 

 3           special needs.  We do this by creating 

 4           materials to equip staff with the tools and 

 5           skills they need to identify situations that 

 6           pose a risk of harm to people receiving 

 7           services.  

 8                  We currently have eight prevention 

 9           toolkits published on our website.  The 

10           latest one, published last year, focuses on 

11           body checks.  This toolkit provides 

12           information about the importance of 

13           performing regular body checks as well as 

14           tools to support the practice in the 

15           provision of care.  Body checks can identify 

16           injury or illness and ensure appropriate care 

17           is received.  Critically, this preventative 

18           measure can also identify if someone is being 

19           mistreated.  

20                  The Justice Center also launched an 

21           innovative online training on one of our most 

22           popular prevention toolkits:  Professional 

23           boundaries.  Trend analysis identified the 

24           failure to maintain professional boundaries 


                                                                   221

 1           as commonly reported.  This online training 

 2           tool presents users with real-life scenarios 

 3           and helps them navigate them appropriately.  

 4                  The agency has now launched a 

 5           committee dedicated to prevention work that 

 6           will be producing more materials in the year 

 7           ahead.  

 8                  Another pillar of the Justice Center's 

 9           work is assisting individuals receiving 

10           services and their families.  Since 2013, 

11           agency advocates have helped more than 

12           16,000 people.  Our highly trained staff 

13           members supported individuals and family 

14           members to understand the process of an 

15           investigation.  They also accompany victims 

16           during interviews and guide people through 

17           the process of obtaining records.  

18                  This past year, the agency contributed 

19           to the COVID relief efforts across the state, 

20           lessening the burden on New Yorkers.  Justice 

21           Center staff assisted in processing rent 

22           relief, ensured compliance with State Liquor 

23           Authority regulations, and helped coordinate 

24           operations at state vaccination sites, among 


                                                                   222

 1           other initiatives. 

 2                  Looking ahead, the Justice Center will 

 3           continue to improve accessibility and 

 4           connection with the public.  We have welcomed 

 5           the opportunity to increase transparency 

 6           regarding the agency's work and proudly share 

 7           what we do.  

 8                  We have published a plan that outlines 

 9           several steps aimed at providing stakeholders 

10           with more insight into our agency operations.  

11           This includes the publication of new data 

12           points that will enhance monthly and annual 

13           reports.  The goal here is to shine more 

14           light on internal processes.  We also plan to 

15           publish more in-depth reports on our forensic 

16           work.  Meeting summaries from our 

17           Advisory Council have already been posted on 

18           our website for review.  We value open 

19           government and will continue to find ways to 

20           enhance transparency going forward.  

21                  Again, thank you for this opportunity 

22           to report on our important work.  We look 

23           forward to continued partnerships with the 

24           state oversight agencies and the Legislature 


                                                                   223

 1           in '22.  I now welcome your questions.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 3           much.

 4                  And I am looking for any hands raised.  

 5           I don't see any Senate hands raised.

 6                  Helene Weinstein, do you have any 

 7           Assemblymembers?

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We do not, 

 9           Senator.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  All right.  I 

11           think you're getting a little bit of a break 

12           this year from our normal experience in this 

13           hearing.

14                  EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MIRANDA:  It 

15           appears so.

16                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  So I appreciate 

17           your coming.  And I am sure that people who 

18           do have questions, they realize later, 

19           actually will follow up with you.  Perhaps 

20           everyone was so overwhelmed with COVID issues 

21           this year that some of the other issues took 

22           a back bench around these topics.

23                  So thank you for your continued good 

24           work, and we are going to excuse you.  Thank 


                                                                   224

 1           you.

 2                  EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MIRANDA:  Thank 

 3           you, Senator.  Good afternoon.  Thank you.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 5                  All right.  Well, this threw me off a 

 6           little bit.  So now we are going to move to 

 7           the non-governmental representatives.  Those 

 8           of you who have the agenda see we have quite 

 9           a few panels today, so I'm going to read 

10           off -- well, first off, I'll explain for the 

11           rest of the day the panelists will each get 

12           three minutes, and then when the list of 

13           people on a panel are complete, then 

14           legislators will get three minutes to ask 

15           questions of the panelists in total.  

16                  So it becomes much more of a quick 

17           ask-and-response system.  There are no 

18           exceptions for chairs or rankers.  Everybody 

19           gets their three minutes to ask questions of 

20           the panelists after they each get three 

21           minutes.  

22                  But the full testimony of everybody 

23           testifying is in front of you or has been 

24           sent to you by computer, as has the testimony 


                                                                   225

 1           of people who were not accepted to testify.  

 2           And just to clarify, sometimes we get 

 3           10 people who want to testify on the exact 

 4           same thing, and we don't choose all 10; we 

 5           try to make sure we are interspersing all the 

 6           different topics people want to bring to our 

 7           attention, and a geographic mix from the 

 8           state.  

 9                  But anyone who has requested to 

10           testify and who has submitted testimony, the 

11           testimony is there.  People who still wish to 

12           submit testimony, even if the hearing is 

13           over, we accept the testimony and add that to 

14           the record of the hearing.  

15                  With that, we're moving to Panel A:  

16           Federation of Mental Health Services, Tracy 

17           Schneider, president; Mental Health 

18           Association in New York State, Glenn Liebman, 

19           CEO; New York State Conference of Local 

20           Mental Hygiene Directors -- and we've had a 

21           replacement person, so instead it will be 

22           Laura Kelemen, instead of Katherine, for the 

23           New York State Conference of Local Mental 

24           Hygiene Directors.  And the Coalition for 


                                                                   226

 1           Behavioral Health, Nadia Chait, director of 

 2           policy and advocacy.  

 3                  I'm hoping all four of you are with 

 4           us, and I will start with Tracy Schneider.

 5                  Good afternoon.

 6                  MS. SCHNEIDER:  Thank you, Senator.

 7                  First I'd like to thank the 

 8           Legislature for having us, giving us the 

 9           opportunity to speak today on the budget.  It 

10           was very humbling, actually, to hear so many 

11           people speak to the issues that we share with 

12           you and see you as our partner.

13                  I represent the Federation of Mental 

14           Health Services, which is a 56-year-old 

15           membership organization, with most of our 

16           members downstate in New York City.  We have 

17           15 member agencies that are both Article 31s 

18           or 32s, which means they provide either 

19           mental health services licensed under OMH or 

20           services licensed under OASAS, and many of 

21           our agencies have joined integrated licenses.

22                  So we really share the mission with 

23           everybody else at the table today to assure 

24           that there is increased access that is 


                                                                   227

 1           available, is quality, that's evidence-based.  

 2           And that we were really thrilled by some of 

 3           the things that were in the budget as 

 4           proposed by the Governor, but mostly that 

 5           there also were no cuts.  That was also very 

 6           significant for us to see.

 7                  So I want to -- you know, I know that 

 8           you have our testimony, and I don't want to 

 9           reiterate and be redundant to a lot of the 

10           things that were heard, so I really just want 

11           to stress five or six points that I think 

12           really can be brought home to assure that, 

13           moving forward, we continue that partnership, 

14           because our agencies are dedicated to rapid 

15           access, we're dedicated to community care, 

16           we're part of the fabric of those 

17           neighborhoods.  And we really need to assure 

18           that there is sustainability for us, because 

19           we believe ourselves to be part of that 

20           safety net for the continuity of care for 

21           patients that are seeking services at our 

22           sites.

23                  The first thing that I really wanted 

24           to speak to you about was, again, recognition 


                                                                   228

 1           of the extension of the APG rates through 

 2           2027.  Those are really important for us, and 

 3           we really need to make sure that, moving 

 4           forward, that they continue and that any 

 5           increase to keep up with the cost of living 

 6           occurs.

 7                  The next thing, the COLA, at 

 8           5.4 percent, is essential for us because our 

 9           costs have gone up as well.  We appreciate 

10           seeing it and hope that that also continues.

11                  The telehealth access issues, we 

12           really want to assure that parity continues 

13           for audio-only, because most of our care has 

14           been rendered that way in the pandemic and 

15           will continue to be moving forward.  

16                  And lastly, and importantly, I want to 

17           speak to the procurement and the protections 

18           for our sector in managed care.  I see I only 

19           have 26 more seconds, but I want to make sure 

20           that in fact that issue gets recognized, 

21           because behavioral health has not been 

22           well-served to date with the way the 

23           managed-care companies have applied our 

24           services.  And we really hope, moving 


                                                                   229

 1           forward, if it's competitive-bid and there is 

 2           no duplication and the numbers are limited, 

 3           we can be at the table and assure that we get 

 4           the kind of recognition we need to continue 

 5           the services we provide.

 6                  I thank you for your time.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 8           much.

 9                  Next up, Glenn Liebman, Mental Health 

10           Association in New York State.  Are you with 

11           us, Glenn?

12                  MR. LIEBMAN:  Yup, I am.  Sorry.  Good 

13           afternoon.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Good afternoon.

15                  MR. LIEBMAN:  Thank you very much for 

16           this opportunity.  Really appreciate it very 

17           much.  My name is Glenn Liebman; I'm the 

18           long-time director of the Mental Health 

19           Association in New York State.  Our 

20           organization is comprised of 26 affiliates in 

21           52 counties.  We provide community-based 

22           mental health services, but we're also very 

23           much engaged in our mission around advocacy, 

24           education and training. 


                                                                   230

 1                  So what I would say is if I were to 

 2           define a word over the last 20 years in terms 

 3           of New York's mental health system -- and the 

 4           country at large, not just New York -- but 

 5           it's the erosion, it's the erosion of 

 6           services that we've seen.  It's especially 

 7           been amplified by the last two years around 

 8           COVID.  But the number -- how do we know 

 9           this?  The number of deaths of despair that 

10           we have seen has skyrocketed.  The number of 

11           young people who have completed suicide.  The 

12           number of people who have contemplated 

13           completing suicide.  The number of overdose 

14           deaths that we've seen over this time period.  

15           And the increase around homelessness and 

16           incarceration and even the day-to-day piece 

17           around the long waiting lists -- that people 

18           are waiting two, three years to get into 

19           housing programs, that people are waiting a 

20           year to see a psychiatrist.  This is 

21           something that is dire for us as a country, 

22           as a society, as New York State.

23                  But this year is different.  This year 

24           we feel like we're very hopeful that we've 


                                                                   231

 1           pivoted, that we've made a movement in the 

 2           right direction.  I think that Governor 

 3           Hochul deserves a lot of credit.  I think 

 4           Commissioner Sullivan deserves a lot of 

 5           credit.  This is the best budget I've seen in 

 6           my 20 years in this position.  

 7                  What we have seen is every year I have 

 8           led, for the last 10, talking about a COLA.  

 9           And this year the COLA's been addressed.  

10           That 5.4 percent was addressed.  Last year, 

11           because of the Legislature, it was also 

12           addressed.  So we finally have movement 

13           around COLA, we have seen all these changes 

14           around workforce retention bonuses, we're 

15           seeing these changes around housing, we're 

16           seeing these changes around veterans' mental 

17           health, children's services, school-based 

18           mental health services -- all to the 

19           positive.  And we are excited about this.

20                  But -- there's always a "but," and we 

21           know that.  And we know that what's happened 

22           with the COLAs over the years.  We've had 

23           14 years of COLAs.  Only the last two and the 

24           first year were actually funded fully.  


                                                                   232

 1           Eleven of those years were not funded or were 

 2           minimally funded.  As a result, according to 

 3           our calculations, over $500 million has been 

 4           lost to our system during that time.  Imagine 

 5           how our system would be so much more 

 6           responsive instead of reactive -- we would be 

 7           a whole different system of care in terms of 

 8           mental health.

 9                  But sadly, we've lost that funding and 

10           we can't get it back.  But we can try to 

11           advocate for more funding.  And that's why we 

12           want to work with you as the Legislature, us 

13           and our 10 other fellow statewide advocacy 

14           groups are urging a $500 million increase 

15           beyond what the Governor's already put in for 

16           mental health services, for behavioral health 

17           services, for all those things I've talked 

18           about and highlighted I think are very 

19           significant.  

20                  And we hope -- we look forward to 

21           working with you around that $500 million 

22           increase.  

23                  Thank you very much for your time.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 


                                                                   233

 1           much.

 2                  Next, the New York State Conference of 

 3           Local Mental Hygiene Directors.

 4                  MS. KELEMEN:  Thank you.  My name is 

 5           Laura Kelemen, and I'm the first vice chair 

 6           for the New York State Conference of Local 

 7           Mental Hygiene Directors.  

 8                  I would like to first thank the chairs 

 9           for the opportunity to testify.  Thank you 

10           for letting us be here today.

11                  The conference represents the county 

12           mental health commissioners for each county 

13           in New York.  Under the Local Services 

14           provisions for Article 41, we are responsible 

15           for the planning, development, implementation 

16           and oversight of services to adults and 

17           children in our communities impacted by 

18           mental health, substance use disorders, and 

19           intellectual developmental disabilities.

20                  We work closely with the commissioners 

21           of the O agencies and their staff, and 

22           maintain a drone's-eye view over the system, 

23           seeking to meet the complex needs of our 

24           constituents. 


                                                                   234

 1                  The conference seeks to amend the 

 2           statutory framework that governs 730 

 3           competence restoration.  My colleagues and I, 

 4           along with our partners at the New York State 

 5           Association of Counties, ask the 

 6           Legislature's support for the inclusion of 

 7           Bill S7461/A8402 in this year's final enacted 

 8           budget.  We applaud Chairs Brouk and Gunther 

 9           for their introduction of this legislation, 

10           which will significantly alleviate the 

11           devastating fiscal impact to every county 

12           across the state, including New York City.

13                  The 2021 enacted budget included an 

14           assumption that allowed the state to begin 

15           charging counties 100 percent of the costs of 

16           restoring mentally ill defendants to 

17           competency.  This action is based on an 

18           archaic statutory framework that has resulted 

19           in tens of millions of dollars in new 

20           expenses for county government.  Restoration 

21           is not mental health treatment.  Individuals 

22           who are unable to understand charges against 

23           them and lack the capacity to defend 

24           themselves or participate in their defense 


                                                                   235

 1           are currently sent to a secure forensic 

 2           setting.  It takes an average of 90 to 150 

 3           days to be restored to competency, but many 

 4           individuals, for competency, it's fleeting.  

 5           They can cycle back into the system for more 

 6           services multiple times on the same charges, 

 7           and some never are restored to competency.

 8                  At more than $1,000 a day, these 

 9           excessive confinements siphon very limited 

10           county resources away from the local 

11           community.  Enactment of this legislation is 

12           critical to ensure that high-needs 

13           individuals who can't be restored receive 

14           treatment, and that millions of dollars in 

15           expenditures currently directed to the 

16           state's General Fund are sent back to 

17           counties so that, through their local 

18           oversight authority, they can reinvest in 

19           critical community-based services.  

20                  Shifting gears a little bit, the 

21           conference applauds the executive for the 

22           inclusion of 8.75 million for jail-based 

23           substance use and medication-assisted 

24           treatment programs in this year's budget.  


                                                                   236

 1           Knowing that costs of medical services, 

 2           nursing services and pharmaceuticals will far 

 3           exceed the 8.75 million, we're asking for an 

 4           additional 15 million for these services.

 5                  Thank you very much for your time.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 7                  And last on this panel, Nadia Chait, 

 8           from the Coalition for Behavioral Health.

 9                  MS. CHAIT:  Good afternoon, and thank 

10           you for the opportunity to testify today.

11                  I'm Nadia Chait, the director of 

12           policy and advocacy at the Coalition for 

13           Behavioral Health.  We represent about a 

14           hundred community mental health and substance 

15           use providers who collectively serve over 

16           half a million New Yorkers annually.

17                  And Glenn has teed me up wonderfully 

18           by discussing the COLA and that wonderful 

19           investment, but also the need for more funds 

20           for our sector.

21                  Over the last two years we've seen 

22           what was already a severe workforce shortage 

23           turn into a devastating crisis.  It is with 

24           shocking regularity that I hear from our 


                                                                   237

 1           members that they had to close intakes for 

 2           certain programs because they simply don't 

 3           have the staff to process the individuals who 

 4           are coming into our system.  They've had to 

 5           add waitlists to programs that have never 

 6           previously had waitlists.

 7                  This is not serving New Yorkers.  It 

 8           is limiting their access to care.  We are 

 9           hearing from parents whose children are 

10           desperately in need of services and who are 

11           being told that they need to wait for weeks, 

12           or sometimes months.  As New Yorkers' 

13           overdose rates are increasing at a 

14           devastating clip, we're seeing folks not 

15           being able to access the services they need.

16                  And so it's critical that we invest 

17           this year in the workforce that can deliver 

18           these lifesaving services to New Yorkers 

19           throughout our state.

20                  While the workforce bonuses are a 

21           helpful start, they're simply not sufficient 

22           for the wildly inadequate salaries of our 

23           field.  We need to really look at our 

24           Medicaid rates and increase rates for these 


                                                                   238

 1           critical services to actually cover the cost 

 2           of care and provide a wage to our staff that 

 3           recognizes their expertise and the value that 

 4           they provide to our state and to New Yorkers.

 5                  It's critical that we modernize the 

 6           scope of practice for many of our licensed 

 7           mental health practitioners so that we don't 

 8           lose licensed mental health counselors and 

 9           other providers who have been providing 

10           critical services, including diagnosis, for 

11           about 20 years in our state and yet who are 

12           at risk of losing that ability and moving to 

13           neighboring states where they are able to 

14           practice to that scope.

15                  But we also must build the pipeline 

16           for our field.  We do not have enough people 

17           coming into our field, and we're not 

18           successfully retaining those who are entering 

19           the field.  And so we would like to see more 

20           funds for both loan forgiveness and tuition 

21           reimbursement, as well as funding for the 

22           internships that are required in our field.  

23           It's incredibly challenging for individuals 

24           who are getting a master's degree in our 


                                                                   239

 1           field to be able to work while they do so, 

 2           because they of course need that internship 

 3           experience to be successful when they start 

 4           in the field, but those internships are 

 5           unpaid, which makes it inaccessible for many 

 6           individuals.

 7                  And in my last 20 seconds, I would 

 8           like to state our support for the competitive 

 9           procurement of Medicaid managed care 

10           proposal.  The current Medicaid managed care 

11           system has vastly increased the 

12           administrative costs for providers, 

13           threatening their financial sustainability 

14           and consumers' access to care, and those 

15           funds have simply lined the pockets of the 

16           managed care companies without improving the 

17           situation on the ground for clients. 

18                  Thank you.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you all 

20           very much.  

21                  I'm going to first send it to Senator 

22           Samra Brouk.

23                  SENATOR BROUK:  Hi.  Thank you all for 

24           joining us today.  You touched on a lot of 


                                                                   240

 1           things that we've been trying to accomplish 

 2           through this budget.  But I think -- I want 

 3           to just pinpoint my question to Glenn, and 

 4           then perhaps someone else can follow up on 

 5           that.  

 6                  But you did talk about the need for 

 7           workforce development and the fact that we do 

 8           have the 5.4 percent COLA.  But I think it's 

 9           important that people understand what happens 

10           if we don't take this action.  So I 

11           appreciate your support that, you know, we 

12           can't have a one-time COLA, this has to be -- 

13           that's the whole point of a COLA, is that 

14           it's a cost-of-living adjustment, and we need 

15           to adjust it every single year, not just one 

16           year. 

17                  You talked about the $500 million on 

18           top of that, because we are dealing with 

19           decades-long stagnation with our payment for 

20           this workforce that is burnt out.  And of 

21           course we do need to modernize our 

22           licensures, to make sure that people can stay 

23           in these positions.

24                  Can you describe -- you know, those 


                                                                   241

 1           are some things we've talked about needing to 

 2           do.  What happens if we fail at doing that 

 3           this year?

 4                  MR. LIEBMAN:  Well, first of all, 

 5           Senator, thank you very much.  That's an 

 6           excellent question.  I just really want to 

 7           thank you and your leadership last year, 

 8           along with Assemblymember Gunther, in terms 

 9           of getting that 1 percent COLA last year.  

10           That was huge.  That was symbolic and very 

11           important, and then it helped lead to this 

12           one. 

13                  I will say a few things.  First of 

14           all, you know, I've been doing this a long 

15           time.  I don't -- I'm not an alarmist.  I try 

16           not to be an alarmist.  I try to be a 

17           realist.  And the reality in the streets is 

18           not good.  You said it perfectly.  I think 

19           that the fear is that if we don't get a 

20           continuous enhancement of, you know, making 

21           sure that this COLA is permanently in 

22           language that we get it every year and 

23           there's a commitment every year, that things 

24           are going to fall apart.


                                                                   242

 1                  We -- you know, Nadia said it 

 2           perfectly.  We are sitting here on the brink 

 3           of people -- 30, 35 percent, 40 percent of 

 4           our workforce is leaving us on a regular 

 5           basis.  We can't continue to operate the 

 6           programming without that workforce.  It's one 

 7           thing to talk about services and systems of 

 8           care, as you know, and it's great and 

 9           innovative and there's some incredibly 

10           innovative programs and ideas -- but we don't 

11           have the staff to run them.  We don't have 

12           the -- we're dying on the vine here around 

13           trying to get more staffing.

14                  And it's frustrating.  And if we don't 

15           continuously get this kind of funding, things 

16           will fall apart.  And the retention bonuses 

17           are excellent, that's great that we're 

18           getting $3,000, but it's a one-time money.  

19           And it's not going to substantially change 

20           and impact a lot of people in our field.  And 

21           I'm fearful, as someone said this morning, 

22           I'm fearful that people are going to Amazon, 

23           they're going to go to McDonald's, they're 

24           going to go someplace else.  And we will lose 


                                                                   243

 1           people who are very mission-driven and care 

 2           greatly about our work.  And unfortunately, 

 3           we're going to lose them.

 4                  So, you know, the deaths of despair 

 5           and everything else I was talking about, 

 6           that's a real consequence of not having the 

 7           services.

 8                  SENATOR BROUK:  Thank you.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  Thank 

10           you very much.

11                  Assembly.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

13           Assemblywoman Gunther, three minutes.

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  So I guess I 

15           wanted to check in on the upstate resource 

16           center and how you're doing.

17                  MR. LIEBMAN:  I'm sorry, the --

18                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  The upstate 

19           resource -- the School Resource Center, 

20           excuse me.

21                  MR. LIEBMAN:  Thank you.  Thank you 

22           for that, Assemblywoman.  

23                  Yes, we have funding for the School 

24           Resource Center.  This is our fourth year of 


                                                                   244

 1           funding.  Thank you to the Assembly for -- 

 2           and you personally for your support for it in 

 3           Year 1.  In the last several years it's been 

 4           in the Executive Budget.  

 5                  This is, as we know, we heard the 

 6           questions, this is such a huge issue for us.  

 7           We're sitting here on the precipice of all -- 

 8           you know, both families and teachers and 

 9           students are suffering greatly during this 

10           crisis.  We know about the isolation.  We 

11           know about the depression.  We know about the 

12           anxiety.  

13                  And having the School Resource Center, 

14           the first of its kind in the country, has 

15           really been significant.  The number of calls 

16           that we've seen has increased dramatically, 

17           the expansion of services has -- there's a 

18           need that continues.  And we're in the 

19           schools all the time talking to the schools 

20           about mental health.  Not just about social 

21           workers, which are significant, and 

22           clinicians, which is incredibly significant, 

23           but also about changing the environments of 

24           schools, making sure that the school 


                                                                   245

 1           environment is much more conducive to mental 

 2           health conversations.  I think that's 

 3           incredibly important. 

 4                  And, you know, there's $500,000 in the 

 5           budget this year.  We're hoping to be able to 

 6           expand that an additional $500,000.  So thank 

 7           you very much for your question.

 8                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  Yeah, I mean, 

 9           when you go into the schools, each 

10           individually, you know, and when you talk to 

11           the schools, is there some sort of a protocol 

12           that you're making or some, like, menu to 

13           follow?  I mean, we're going to have children 

14           that haven't been in school, parents haven't 

15           worked, lack of money, lack of food -- 

16           there's like a million things that are going 

17           on with these children.

18                  So is there a short-term plan and a 

19           long-term plan?  I mean, I think one of the 

20           most important things is no matter how much 

21           money we gave you, Glenn, we do have to get 

22           professionals in our schools --

23                  MR. LIEBMAN:  Agreed.

24                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  -- and that's 


                                                                   246

 1           where it begins.  You have a captive audience 

 2           at that point.

 3                  And, you know, we used to have 

 4           guidance counselors, social workers in the 

 5           school, a nurse in every school.  All of 

 6           that, to me, is vitally important in this day 

 7           and age.

 8                  MR. LIEBMAN:  You know, Aileen, I 

 9           totally agree with you.  I think we do have 

10           to have -- we do have to have the counselors 

11           in the schools, and the social workers, 

12           because there's a huge lack of that.  But 

13           there's also a huge lack of still 

14           understanding about mental health.  And it's 

15           tenfold now because of COVID.  All that 

16           anxiety, all that isolation, all that 

17           depression is now all of a sudden, you know, 

18           in the surface of what's happening in the 

19           schools right now, and you're seeing it. 

20                  And teachers have a tough enough job.  

21           And now all of a sudden they're becoming 

22           clinicians for the students, on top of all 

23           their difficulties.  And you talk to the 

24           school associations, and they're all saying 


                                                                   247

 1           that teachers are -- they need self-care, 

 2           there's a desperate need for self-care for 

 3           teachers.

 4                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  Well, I think 

 5           that that -- there was an article in the 

 6           Washington Post that everybody should read, 

 7           and it's about what this isolation and the 

 8           impact that it has on everybody down the 

 9           line.  You know, it does.  I mean, from the 

10           school nurse to the parent to the child 

11           watching the parent to the child that really 

12           hasn't seen any faces since they're behind 

13           masks.  There's a whole bunch of things that 

14           are going on there.

15                  And, you know, I mean there needs to 

16           be some sort of a program in place or some 

17           kind of a process in place to begin healing.  

18           Not from -- from the teacher to the parent to 

19           the child.  I mean, there's -- what you're 

20           hearing from teachers is that, you know, 

21           children are aggressive because they're 

22           angry.  I mean, there's all of these things.  

23                  And, you know, I'm hoping that at some 

24           point in time that we need to spend part of 


                                                                   248

 1           our education money on that success with 

 2           children regarding mental health and getting 

 3           kids back to, you know, I'm saying, in 

 4           quotes, some sort of normalcy, but guiding 

 5           them along the way.

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 7           Assemblywoman, the time has expired.

 8                  We're going to go back to the Senate 

 9           now.

10                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  Okay.  You can 

11           go.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I think it's my 

13           turn next, thank you.

14                  Laura, I understand what you were 

15           saying about the draconian approach of 

16           Governor Cuomo to requiring counties to play 

17           a certain role, perhaps without any funding.  

18           But as you might have heard earlier, a huge 

19           number of my colleagues are very concerned 

20           that we have totally inadequate residential 

21           beds and intensive services for the severely 

22           mentally ill who may be acting out in 

23           criminal ways.

24                  So even though you got handed an 


                                                                   249

 1           assignment you don't necessarily think you 

 2           were prepared for, was not your assignment to 

 3           provide intensive residential services for 

 4           this population?

 5                  MS. KELEMEN:  The challenge becomes 

 6           when individuals are in an incarcerated 

 7           setting who are unable to stand trial.  

 8           Currently what's happening is they're going 

 9           to a forensic setting that's secure.  And 

10           what the legislation that we're seeking will 

11           do is actually hopefully assist in returning 

12           individuals to the community faster and 

13           having them in a better place.

14                  So for example, when we're seeking -- 

15           when a court is referring somebody -- and I 

16           hate to get deep in the weeds, but when a 

17           court is referring somebody to a psychologist 

18           and psychiatrists for are they even competent 

19           to stand trial, right now there is no request 

20           for an impression about whether people can 

21           ever be restored to competence or not.

22                  The new legislation {Zoom audio 

23           dropped}.  It also will allow for the court 

24           systems to more often bring somebody back in 


                                                                   250

 1           front of them so that they can hear about 

 2           what their treatment plans are, they can hear 

 3           about how that restoration is going, so that 

 4           someone is not just simply languishing in a 

 5           forensic setting where they're receiving 

 6           services on how to train them to understand 

 7           the role of the courts -- but they're not 

 8           necessarily receiving the intensive therapy 

 9           that they would receive in a different 

10           setting.  

11                  And that's what this legislation 

12           really seeks to allow us to do, is to have 

13           people receive those services in a 

14           hospital-based setting, and also take these, 

15           you know, millions of dollars and provide 

16           them back to the community so that we can 

17           provide more intensive residential supports, 

18           so we can ensure that there's workforce 

19           support so that people who are HARP-eligible 

20           actually have workers who can help provide 

21           those services in the community, so we don't 

22           have people getting arrested.  We can fund 

23           those services to avoid people being 

24           arrested.


                                                                   251

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 2           much for the clarification.  

 3                  Anyone else for this panel?

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes, 

 5           Assemblyman Epstein.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you, 

 7           Chair.  Liz, you were going to forget about 

 8           me there.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I apologize, 

10           Harvey.  Your picture was off, so I didn't 

11           see you.

12                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Yeah, sorry 

13           about that, we're trying to double-Zoom all 

14           the time.

15                  So yeah, I just wanted to go back to 

16           what you were saying around the shortage of 

17           workers.  And I'm wondering if you see a 

18           larger shortage of workers who are working 

19           those 24-hour shifts.  Glenn, I mean we've 

20           seen -- you know, when people are being paid 

21           for 13 out of the 24, do you see a bigger 

22           problem in there?  And I know we need fair 

23           pay for home healthcare, and I'm with that.

24                  But I'm wondering what you think the 


                                                                   252

 1           solutions are for the 24-hour shifts that we 

 2           see across the state.

 3                  MR. LIEBMAN:  Well, thank you very 

 4           much.

 5                  I think that there -- I guess there 

 6           are a lot of issues to unpack with that.  

 7           First of all, these 24-hour shifts are 

 8           brutal.  I think that it becomes incredibly 

 9           difficult.  And it's difficult for the 

10           individual, it's difficult for their agency 

11           to have to rely on somebody who's going to do 

12           those kinds of shifts.  

13                  And it's sort of a bad cost-benefit 

14           analysis that unfortunately we have to 

15           undertake because of the fact that we have to 

16           pay overtime, and it becomes very difficult 

17           for the individual who appropriately gets the 

18           overtime, and for the provider who has to pay 

19           overtime because they don't have enough staff 

20           to have somebody else in there. 

21                  So as a result you're getting somebody 

22           who's tired, who's burnt out, who's sitting 

23           there working these long shifts.

24                  So I think it really is a matter of -- 


                                                                   253

 1           you know, money doesn't solve everything, we 

 2           know that.  But I think that it would be 

 3           helpful to see an enhancement beyond the 

 4           $3,000 stipend, which I think is terrific, 

 5           but I think we have to do more than that.  We 

 6           have to raise that enhancement.  I think 

 7           there's a bill out there around a tax credit 

 8           for direct care workers as well that I think 

 9           is a significant bill as well.  We should be 

10           doing everything we can.  And I know we've 

11           talked about it, I know the commissioner has 

12           talked about it appropriately, about -- that 

13           we have to have tuition reimbursements, we 

14           have to have loan forgiveness.  

15                  We have to throw everything on the 

16           table here.  We're in a crisis that we've 

17           never had.  Yet at the same time, we have a 

18           better budget than we've ever had.  So we 

19           should take advantage of that in making sure 

20           that our workforce, which is critical to 

21           everything we do, we can't do anything else 

22           without them -- that make sure you put a 

23           compilation together of all these things and 

24           move forward and do something around that.  


                                                                   254

 1           That's what I would suggest, Assemblyman.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  And so Nadia and 

 3           Laura, do you think we should just end the 

 4           24-hour shifts in total at this point and go 

 5           to shifts -- two 12-hour shifts for workers?

 6                  MS. CHAIT:  I'm not sure -- my members 

 7           are all community mental health programs.  

 8           I'm not sure that any of them have 24-hour 

 9           shifts so I can't comment to that specific 

10           issue.

11                  But, you know, I think in general 

12           anytime we're looking at really long shifts 

13           and overnight shifts, we need to be as 

14           flexible as we can to staff those shifts.

15                  MS. KELEMEN:  Glenn is right, we're in 

16           a crisis.  Throwing everything at it to help 

17           address the situation is absolutely 

18           necessary.  Twenty-four-hour shifts are 

19           challenging for anybody.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

21                  So back to the Senate.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

23                  And seeing no other Senator's hands 

24           up -- just double-checking, nobody pops up -- 


                                                                   255

 1           I'm going to thank this panel for your 

 2           participation today and for the work of you 

 3           and your member organizations every day 

 4           throughout the State of New York.

 5                  The next panel -- and it's my fault, 

 6           but I made it way too big.  So I'm breaking 

 7           it up into two, and I'm only going to call 

 8           the first five members of the panel.  We'll 

 9           do those five members, and then we'll go to 

10           the second part of the panel.

11                  So Local 372, New York City Board of 

12           Education Employees, Donna March Tilghman, 

13           SAPIS chapter chairperson; New York State 

14           Coalition for Children's Behavioral Health, 

15           Andrea Smyth, CEO; National Alliance on 

16           Mental Illness New York State, Matthew 

17           Shapiro, director of public affairs; 

18           Citizens' Committee for Children of New York, 

19           Alice Bufkin, associate executive director; 

20           and justice of the Supreme Court, retired, 

21           Arthur Diamond.

22                  So we'll call up those five, starting 

23           with Local 372.  Are you there?

24                  MS. TILGHMAN:  Yes, hi, good 


                                                                   256

 1           afternoon.  Can everyone hear me?

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Yes, we can.  

 3           Good afternoon.

 4                  MS. TILGHMAN:  So good afternoon, 

 5           Chairwoman Krueger, Chairwoman Weinstein and 

 6           distinguished members of the New York State 

 7           Senate Finance Committee and Assembly Ways 

 8           and Means Committee.

 9                  My name is Donna March Tilghman, and I 

10           am the SAPIS chapter chairwoman.  SAPIS 

11           stands for "Substance Abuse Prevention 

12           Intervention Specialist."  And I thank you 

13           for the opportunity to provide testimony on 

14           the Governor's proposed mental hygiene 

15           budget.  

16                  I speak today on behalf of the 

17           president of my local, Local 372 of District 

18           Council 37, President Shaun D. Francois I; 

19           also Executive Vice President Donald Nesbit, 

20           and another person who's not here with me 

21           today, the SAPIS chapter secretary, 

22           Mr. Nestor Reyes.

23                  We all work for the New York City 

24           Department of Education, public schools of 


                                                                   257

 1           New York City.  We represent -- we service 

 2           1.2 million students.  We are funded by 

 3           OASAS.  

 4                  And today we are seeking an increase 

 5           of $1 million.  Previously we were 

 6           supplementally funded through the Joint 

 7           Legislative Appropriation Committee with 

 8           $2 million, and the majority of our funding 

 9           comes from OASAS.

10                  Our students -- it is no secret that 

11           our students are facing a mental health 

12           crisis caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.  

13           According to the CDC, the proportion of 

14           children's mental health visits to emergency 

15           departments have skyrocketed since April 

16           2020.

17                  Since 1971, the SAPIS have provided 

18           mental health services to the children of 

19           New York City.  We provide a number of 

20           services, which include counseling, we do 

21           scientific, evidence-based curriculum to the 

22           students.  We have a variety of curricula, 

23           from life skills to Second Step to violence 

24           prevention, Too Good for Violence.  Also we 


                                                                   258

 1           do with children -- we conduct positive 

 2           alternatives, whether they're book clubs, 

 3           music, drama, to our children to help 

 4           introduce them to other alternatives to not 

 5           start the use of drugs, so to be involved in 

 6           drugs or any type of gang violence.  

 7                  So also we provide parent workshops to 

 8           parents and we work with parents as well as 

 9           other people in the school.

10                  So it is our goal to partner with the 

11           state in making an investment again into our 

12           students.  I don't tell my students they're 

13           the future, I tell them they're the now.

14                  And I thank you so much for listening.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

16           much for getting all of that in so quickly.

17                  (Laughter.)

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  It's a challenge.

19                  Next, New York State Coalition for 

20           Children's Behavioral Health, Andrea Smyth.

21                  MS. SMYTH:  Thank you, Senator 

22           Krueger.  Thank you, members of the fiscal 

23           committees and the mental hygiene committees.  

24                  I'm Andrea Smyth, the president and 


                                                                   259

 1           CEO of the New York State Coalition for 

 2           Children's Behavioral Health.  My comments on 

 3           the Executive Budget will fall into three 

 4           categories -- rates, workforce and new 

 5           recommendations.

 6                  So the Surgeon General has announced 

 7           that this country has a children's mental 

 8           health emergency, and the final budget really 

 9           must respond to that crisis.  Without 

10           available community mental health services, 

11           emergency departments become the default 

12           option for children who need on-demand care.  

13           But a recent study showed that a non-acute 

14           pediatric mental health visit in the 

15           emergency department costs about $219 an hour 

16           and that neither families nor the child 

17           really benefit from what happens there.

18                  So without appropriate community 

19           services, emergency departments are the 

20           default, and we want to stop spending on 

21           low-value emergency department care and, 

22           instead, fund quality services and more 

23           workers.  And to do that, we need to accept 

24           the Governor's recommendation on home-based 


                                                                   260

 1           community intervention, although Aileen -- 

 2           and I will agree with you, Assemblymember 

 3           Gunther, that it's a tiny number, 2600 

 4           families -- amending the Governor's 

 5           recommendation to expand the mental health 

 6           benefits covered by Child Health Plus and the 

 7           extension of the APG rates to make sure that 

 8           any ambulatory children's mental health 

 9           service gets the APG extension until 

10           March 27th.  Adding 21.5 million, 4 million 

11           to prevent a rate cliff -- that's going to 

12           happen in October, 5.5 to support 

13           county-by-county expansion of family support 

14           services for non-Medicaid families, and 

15           12 million to create a short-term hospital 

16           diversion service for complex-care, 

17           cross-systems youth.

18                  And workforce, the bonuses need to be 

19           adjusted to include our workers who work 

20           fewer than 20 hours a week.  The COLA needs 

21           to be adjusted so it includes children's 

22           health home care managers, and to authorize 

23           the COLA for five consecutive years.

24                  Add a state income tax credit for 


                                                                   261

 1           direct workers so we can retain them for the 

 2           next five years.  And then add funding for 

 3           the Master's in Mental Health Scholarship 

 4           Fund that Senator Brouk and Assemblywoman 

 5           Fahy have introduced.  And include revisions 

 6           to the scope of practice for licensed mental 

 7           health counselors.

 8                  New.  Capital needs.  We need a more 

 9           targeted approach to the capital needs for 

10           behavioral and developmental disability 

11           providers.  There's a statewide healthcare 

12           facility proposal; we want a statewide 

13           behavioral and developmental healthcare 

14           facility transformation program.  

15                  And we think we have to work really 

16           diligently to enact the Medicaid managed care 

17           reforms, especially protecting children with 

18           special needs.

19                  Thank you.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

21                  And our next up is Matthew Shapiro, 

22           National Alliance on Mental Illness New York 

23           State.

24                  MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you so much, 


                                                                   262

 1           Senator.  Good afternoon.  My name is Matthew 

 2           Shapiro.  I'm the director of public affairs 

 3           for NAMI-New York State, the state chapter of 

 4           the nation's largest grassroots organization, 

 5           dedicated to improving the lives of 

 6           individuals and families impacted by mental 

 7           health disorders.  

 8                  Before I start, I want to quickly 

 9           mention that during the day here many 

10           legislators have detailed the importance of 

11           meeting the mental health needs of frontline 

12           workers.  And NAMI-New York State does offer 

13           free programs to enhance frontline wellness, 

14           so a pitch for that.

15                  New York cannot recover and begin to 

16           move forward from the events of the past two 

17           years without addressing the growing mental 

18           health crisis -- which has existed long 

19           before the onset of the pandemic.  The time 

20           is now to invest in programs and supports 

21           designed to help those impacted by mental 

22           health and substance use disorders.  NAMI-New 

23           York State has three main priorities for this 

24           budget:  Making the necessary investments to 


                                                                   263

 1           address years of underfunding in behavioral 

 2           health services, providing a mental health 

 3           response to a mental health crisis, and 

 4           investing in New York's mental health housing 

 5           programs.

 6                  My colleagues Glenn and Nadia earlier 

 7           spoke on our first concerns, and you'll see 

 8           it in our written testimony that we fully 

 9           support their asks, as they're long overdue.

10                  I want to focus on the historic 

11           opportunity New York has to address one of 

12           our greatest social justice issues, the 

13           criminalization of mental illness, by 

14           supporting Governor Hochul's proposed 

15           investments in the 988 mental health crisis 

16           line and crisis stabilization centers.  

17                  The implementation of 988 provides New 

18           York with an opportunity to reimagine crisis 

19           response and create a fully functional mental 

20           health response system.  988 is more than a 

21           number.  988 will provide a diversion from 

22           the criminal justice system and a gateway to 

23           recovery, healing and hope.

24                  I urge you to support the Governor's 


                                                                   264

 1           proposal to provide $35 million in fiscal 

 2           year '22-'23, which will expand to 

 3           $60 million in fiscal year '23-'24 for 988.  

 4           Every penny of that investment is needed, as 

 5           to be successful and truly aid those it is 

 6           designed to help, 988 must be appropriately 

 7           funded in order to provide 24-hour statewide 

 8           coverage, seven days a week, with all the 

 9           services offered in-state with the ability to 

10           provide local resources in a linguistically 

11           and culturally competent manner.

12                  Additionally, funding must be 

13           available to educate the public on the 

14           differences between 988 and 911.

15                  Governor Hochul's funding proposal 

16           will meet these needs, and we urge you to 

17           support this transformative investment.

18                  Governor Hochul has also paired 988 

19           with a proposed $100 million investment over 

20           the next five years to create 12 new crisis 

21           stabilization centers across the state.  

22                  These centers will provide immediate 

23           care for people who are experiencing a 

24           behavioral health crisis, providing a 


                                                                   265

 1           treatment-appropriate and cost-effective 

 2           alternative to the two options currently most 

 3           utilized, police departments and hospital 

 4           emergency rooms.

 5                  Senator Krueger, you expressed some 

 6           concerns earlier about this model, and I'd be 

 7           happy to discuss those with you and answer 

 8           any questions you might have.  And just 

 9           really quickly, I do want to say that 

10           NAMI-New York State does also support 

11           Kendra's Law, and I'd be happy to answer any 

12           questions about that as well.

13                  Thank you.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

15                  And our next testifier is Alice 

16           Bufkin, from Citizens' Committee for 

17           Children.

18                  MS. BUFKIN:  Thank you, Chair Krueger, 

19           and thank you, Chair Weinstein and all the 

20           members of today's committees, for holding 

21           this hearing today.

22                  My name is Alice Bufkin.  I am the 

23           associate executive director of policy and 

24           advocacy at Citizens' Committee for Children.  


                                                                   266

 1           We're a multi-issue children's advocacy 

 2           organization committed to ensuring every 

 3           New York child is healthy, housed, educated 

 4           and safe.  We also help coordinate Healthy 

 5           Minds, Healthy Kids, which is a statewide 

 6           coalition dedicated to ensuring all New York 

 7           children receive the high-quality behavioral 

 8           healthcare they need.  

 9                  Before I discuss the budget, I want to 

10           touch very briefly on the depth of the need 

11           facing young people in our state.  We're 

12           entering the third year of COVID-19.  We are 

13           hearing from young people, from families on 

14           the ground, from those who work directly with 

15           children -- some of whom you've heard from 

16           today -- the effects of loss of loved ones, 

17           of isolation, anxiety, economic insecurity 

18           and hunger, school disruption.  These are 

19           factors that will have an impact on 

20           children's mental and emotional well-being 

21           for the rest of their lives unless we support 

22           them through this.

23                  In New York the effects of COVID have 

24           been able to take such strong root in the 


                                                                   267

 1           minds of children and families because we 

 2           have never had the right foundation or 

 3           commitment to children's behavioral health.  

 4           We have a system that reacts rather than 

 5           invests in prevention.  Families struggle to 

 6           access care when they need it until 

 7           eventually all they can fall back on is 

 8           emergency rooms and hospitals, after their 

 9           child missed so many opportunities to get 

10           help early.

11                  We need to do better, and we need to 

12           change the vision of our state so we fully 

13           invest in supports that children and families 

14           need at all stages of their lives.

15                  We feel the Executive Budget takes 

16           critical steps towards achieving this goal.  

17           I want to touch on some of these areas today, 

18           and I urge support from the Legislature.  

19           Given the depth of need, there are also areas 

20           where our state must do more.

21                  The primary reason children and 

22           families are unable to access services is 

23           because we don't have adequate provider 

24           capacity.  That shortage is driven by a 


                                                                   268

 1           chronic history of inadequate rates.  That's 

 2           why we're so supportive of the 5.4 percent 

 3           COLA for human service workers, and the 

 4           enhanced FMAP funding in the Executive 

 5           Budget.  Combine this with a significant and 

 6           much-needed increase to outpatient mental 

 7           health clinics.  

 8                  We hope the recoupment of funds from 

 9           managed care plan underspends, which itself 

10           addresses a great injustice, will allow these 

11           rates to be sustained and made permanent. 

12                  We also urge the Legislature to 

13           support language in the Executive Budget that 

14           includes children's services as part of the 

15           permanent extension of the COLA, as opposed 

16           to current statute, which has excluded 

17           children's providers.

18                  Despite the real difference these 

19           enhancements will make for access, we know 

20           the children's behavioral health system has 

21           been underresourced for years, and we need to 

22           fundamentally reexamine how we've been 

23           calculating rates.  That's why we urge the 

24           state to reform rate methodologies to ensure 


                                                                   269

 1           rates are sufficient to meet children's needs 

 2           and to conduct an annual assessment of the 

 3           viability of clinical rates.

 4                  We also ask that the state address the 

 5           rate cliff that will occur for children and 

 6           family treatment and support services on 

 7           October 1st if additional funding isn't 

 8           provided.

 9                  I want to briefly touch on other areas 

10           we support in the Executive Budget.  These 

11           include additional funding for workforce 

12           bonuses, home-based crisis intervention and 

13           RTFs, proposals to ensure telehealth parity, 

14           and the alignment of services in Medicaid and 

15           CHIP.

16                  We do, however, believe there are 

17           additional areas that need deeper 

18           investments.  It's very encouraging to hear 

19           Commissioner Sullivan's remarks about adding 

20           funding for Healthy Steps.  We strongly 

21           support additional funding for two 

22           generational multidisciplinary models that 

23           integrate mental health for young children 

24           and caregivers in pediatric primary care 


                                                                   270

 1           settings.  We also support additional funding 

 2           to extend family support services to families 

 3           without Medicaid, and to build on many of the 

 4           workforce supports Commissioner Sullivan 

 5           referenced.

 6                  I want to thank you all again for your 

 7           time, and please look to my written testimony 

 8           for more details.  Thank you.  

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

10           much.

11                  And last on this panel, Justice of the 

12           Supreme Court, retired, Arthur Diamond.

13                  JUDGE DIAMOND:  Thank you very much, 

14           Chairs Krueger, Weinstein, members of the 

15           committee.  Thank you for having me here.  

16           And a special hello to Assemblyman Ra.  It's 

17           nice to see a Nassau County friendly face 

18           there.

19                  Prior to my retirement from the bench 

20           in March of 2020, I was, amongst other 

21           things, the supervising judge of guardianship 

22           matters in Nassau County.  As you probably 

23           know, under Article 81 of the New York State 

24           Mental Hygiene Law, once an individual is 


                                                                   271

 1           found to be incapacitated by a justice of the 

 2           Supreme Court, the statute states that the 

 3           courts must -- shall -- appoint a guardian 

 4           for that person.

 5                  Unfortunately, today there are 

 6           instances where judges are not able to find 

 7           individuals who are willing to serve in that 

 8           capacity.  

 9                  I am here today asking that the funds 

10           for a former grant that we had obtained for 

11           us by then-Senator Kemp Hannon to address 

12           this need, be reinstated so that we can begin 

13           to use those funds in these cases where we 

14           are unable to find guardians.

15                  At that time with those funds we in 

16           Nassau County established a pilot program 

17           which utilized specialized social workers, 

18           known as geriatric care managers, to be 

19           guardians in these cases where we had no one 

20           to serve.  This alleviated the need to put 

21           judges in the uncomfortable position of 

22           asking attorneys off the Part 36 list to 

23           serve as guardian for free, which had been 

24           the practice up until then.


                                                                   272

 1                  Attorneys today simply do not want to 

 2           serve as guardians anymore, especially when 

 3           they can't get paid.  

 4                  The grant, which had been for 

 5           $250,000, allowed us to meet our statutory 

 6           requirement of appointing graduate guardians 

 7           by appointing geriatric care managers to fill 

 8           the gaps in cases where, one, there was no 

 9           family member or friend who was willing to 

10           serve and, two, where the individual did not 

11           meet the requirements of the county's public 

12           guardian program.

13                  During the time of the grant's 

14           existence, we found that the $250,000 that 

15           was allocated to us actually served to solve 

16           the problem.  As I'm sure members of this 

17           committee know, the elderly population in 

18           New York, as in the rest of the country, is 

19           the fastest-growing segment of our state.  

20           The number of incapacitateds is likewise 

21           growing incrementally.  I believe the 

22           statistic is that by the year 2030, there 

23           will be more 80-year-olds than 5-year-olds in 

24           our state.


                                                                   273

 1                  Incapacitated persons may very well be 

 2           the most vulnerable members of our 

 3           population.  Many have severe dementia and 

 4           Alzheimer's.  They live alone and simply need 

 5           guardians to survive.  I hope that you will 

 6           see the value in our program and reinstate 

 7           the grant in this year's budget.

 8                  Thank you very much for the 

 9           opportunity.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

11           much, Judge. 

12                  All right, I see the hand up of my 

13           chair of Mental Health, Samra Brouk.

14                  SENATOR BROUK:  Thank you so much.  

15           And thank you to all of our panelists.

16                  I'm going to hone in on a question to 

17           Alice.  Alice, I appreciated your testimony 

18           specifically as it pertains to the effects 

19           it's having on children.

20                  So there's no surprise, I agree with 

21           you in terms of supporting the COLA, knowing 

22           that we need to extend the COLA -- and the 

23           fact that money is not going to be enough to 

24           actually solve this crisis and make sure that 


                                                                   274

 1           our young folks are getting the services that 

 2           they need.

 3                  So I wanted to bring something to your 

 4           attention and get your reflection on it.  So 

 5           in the Governor's proposal in this Executive 

 6           Budget, not necessarily within the mental 

 7           health piece, but with respect to nurse 

 8           practitioners and pharmacists, we've seen 

 9           that there have been scope-of-practice 

10           changes proposed in the Executive Budget.  So 

11           my question is, given the exacerbation of the 

12           COVID-19 pandemic and the workforce shortage 

13           that you've talked about, that many folks in 

14           here have talked about in New York State for 

15           mental health providers, I want to hear more 

16           about what that impact would be if we did the 

17           same for our LMHCs, our LMFTs and licensed 

18           psychoanalysts on reducing some of the 

19           challenges that we currently have with 

20           children's mental health.  

21                  And then I'm just going to pile this 

22           on there and give you the rest of the time to 

23           speak.  Similarly, even if we won the 

24           500 million additional funding, even if we 


                                                                   275

 1           continue with the 5.4 percent COLA and we get 

 2           it not to sunset after next year, what will 

 3           happen if we don't change the scope of 

 4           practice of these licensures for our young 

 5           people?

 6                  MS. BUFKIN:  Thank you so much, 

 7           Senator, for that question.

 8                  So absolutely, the scope of practice 

 9           issue is one that I know, you know, you're 

10           focused on and that I think many of our 

11           partners are as well, given that, you know, 

12           one of the challenges within the state is 

13           that we just don't have enough providers who 

14           are able to diagnose.

15                  And so there's so many places within 

16           the system where we have a logjam where 

17           children are blocked, there's so many doors 

18           that shut in the face of families, and that's 

19           one area, is the ability around diagnosis.  

20           And so I know that's one area where having 

21           LMHPs have that ability can increase the 

22           opportunity to have more children able to 

23           receive a diagnosis and ultimately receive 

24           services.


                                                                   276

 1                  Now, of course I think there are lots 

 2           of areas where we wish we could get services 

 3           to children without a diagnosis.  But because 

 4           that is needed, we really need to address 

 5           that issue around licensing.

 6                  So, you know, I think that's very 

 7           important because -- to the second part of 

 8           your question -- anything we can do to 

 9           increase not only the number of providers but 

10           the ease with which children and families 

11           access it.  Because I think beyond the lack 

12           of adequate provider capacity, the thing you 

13           hear from families is:  I don't know where to 

14           go.  Or:  I went somewhere and it was 

15           overwhelming or intimidating, and so I 

16           couldn't get in to get services.  

17                  So, you know, with the last seconds 

18           I'll just say I strongly support, you know, 

19           that opportunity to increase the ability of 

20           more people to provide services to young 

21           people.

22                  SENATOR BROUK:  Thank you.  Very well 

23           said, and very quickly.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Assembly?


                                                                   277

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We go to 

 2           Assemblyman Ed Ra.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, Chair.

 4                  Judge Diamond, good to see you.

 5                  Just a question for you.  Is this -- 

 6           was this program unique to Nassau County?  

 7           Does it exist anywhere else in the state?

 8                  I think you're muted.

 9                  JUDGE DIAMOND:  So there are other 

10           guardianship providers.  For example, you may 

11           be familiar with Project Guardianship, which 

12           receives money from the OCA budget, that 

13           functions in the five boroughs.

14                  We do not get any money from there.  

15           This grant was unique to Nassau and Suffolk.  

16           But I would say it essentially functioned in 

17           the same way, which is to avoid using 

18           attorneys as guardians and instead using 

19           social workers who specialize in this area.

20                  But Project Guardianship does not 

21           serve any county outside of the five 

22           boroughs.  So we're not eligible to receive 

23           services from them.  So our pilot was unique, 

24           to my knowledge, to every county outside of 


                                                                   278

 1           the five boroughs.  If that answered your 

 2           question.  

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Yes.  Well, thank you 

 4           very much for being here to testify about it 

 5           and advocate for it.  I certainly appreciate 

 6           it, as a representative of Nassau County.

 7                  JUDGE DIAMOND:  Thank you very much.  

 8           I appreciate your kind words.

 9                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Just one other 

10           question, for Mr. Shapiro.  

11                  You mentioned your program with regard 

12           to, you know, helping frontline workers and 

13           all of that.  If you can elaborate on that 

14           program and comment at all on what I asked 

15           the Mental Health commissioner about this 

16           morning, which was should we perhaps use some 

17           of that $2 billion that's set aside for COVID 

18           recovery and relief in this budget to maybe 

19           seed some mental health programs for first 

20           responders, healthcare workers, people who 

21           have, you know, suffered trauma serving the 

22           public during this pandemic.

23                  MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, Assemblyman.  

24           I appreciate that question.


                                                                   279

 1                  NAMI is not a direct provider of 

 2           services.  We offer peer-led supports.  So 

 3           again, any of our trainings or support groups 

 4           are, you know, peer-led.

 5                  So for frontline workers, you know, 

 6           NAMI on the national level has been very 

 7           dedicated to this issue and created a 

 8           program, a frontline wellness program where 

 9           we go in and give presentations.  And they've 

10           been to everything from, you know, people who 

11           run suicide hotlines to direct care workers 

12           to childcare workers.  I mean, the definition 

13           of frontline workers has certainly expanded.  

14                  And we do have, like I say, a free 

15           program that we offer to these different 

16           providers, frontline providers, to talk about 

17           their mental wellness, give them strategies 

18           to enhance their wellness, and give them the 

19           opportunity to discuss the experiences that 

20           they're having.

21                  To the second part of your question -- 

22           and again, sir, if you contact me, I'll be 

23           more than happy to give you more information 

24           about that program. 


                                                                   280

 1                  To the second part of your question, 

 2           you know, as not a provider of direct 

 3           services, I'm not sure if I'm qualified to 

 4           say how that money should be spent.  But 

 5           thank you for asking.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Okay.  Well, thank 

 7           you for your work.

 8                  MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, sir.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

10                  I don't see any other Senate hands.  

11           You may or may not have other Assemblymembers 

12           in line.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  No, we don't.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  Then I'm 

15           going to thank this panel for your 

16           participation today, and I'm going to move on 

17           to what I said was the second half of a 

18           panel, but it really was its own panel, my 

19           printout just left the "Panel C" part out. 

20                  So Panel C:  New York Association for 

21           Psychiatric Rehabilitation Services, Harvey 

22           Rosenthal, CEO; New York Lawyers for the 

23           Public Interest, Disability Justice Program, 

24           Ruth Lowenkron, director; Correct Crisis 


                                                                   281

 1           Intervention Today-New York City, Evelyn 

 2           Graham Nyaasi, steering committee member; and 

 3           Western New York Comprehensive Care Center 

 4           for Eating Disorders, Mary Tanillo, director.  

 5                  So we'll start with Harvey.  Good 

 6           afternoon, Harvey.

 7                  MR. ROSENTHAL:  Hello, Senator.

 8                  And thank you to the chairs and the 

 9           members of the committees for your long and 

10           strong support for New Yorkers who live with 

11           mental illnesses.  And again, to the Governor 

12           and the Mayor for hitting the ground running, 

13           as you heard this morning.

14                  NYAPRS agrees with all of the 

15           advocates you've heard from here today about 

16           the COLA, the investment funds and all that 

17           side.  I'm not here to really focus on that.  

18           I'm here to focus on Kendra's Law and 

19           alternatives to Kendra's Law.

20                  I'm a person in recovery, and I 

21           represent people in recovery across the 

22           state,  people with fairly serious mental 

23           illnesses.  Our hearts go out to the Go 

24           family.  We know about violence.  We're 11 


                                                                   282

 1           times more likely to be victimized.  There is 

 2           a mental health crisis in New York City, and 

 3           it's around the state and the country, and 

 4           it's been here a long time. 

 5                  Examples can be found in the New York 

 6           Times articles on both Andrew Goldstein in 

 7           1999 and Simon Martial a few weeks ago.  Both 

 8           of these gentlemen were subway pushers.  They 

 9           both wanted help.  They weren't trying to 

10           avoid help.  They both wanted longer hospital 

11           stays.  They both wanted better medication.  

12           They didn't want to have to deal with short 

13           admissions, failed discharge plans.  They 

14           both wanted housing.  They both experienced a 

15           lack of access, engagement, activism, poor 

16           follow-up, as well as low coordination and 

17           accountability.

18                  The tens of thousands that NYAPRS 

19           represents are frightened, and their health 

20           is worsened by the characterizations of them 

21           as dangerous, and this round-'em-up mentality 

22           and calls to sweep them up and sweep away 

23           their rights, and proposals to 

24           institutionalize them for 90 days, one year 


                                                                   283

 1           and three years.

 2                  We feel that the public and 

 3           politicians are blaming the victims here.  It 

 4           is not our fault, and their fault, that 

 5           they're not able to get access to good care.  

 6           It's not their fault that they're not able to 

 7           get people who have time to listen and 

 8           respond and, when they don't show up, go out 

 9           and find them and don't call them 

10           noncompliant.  It's not their fault that they 

11           have to wait in traumatizing emergency rooms 

12           for days and then leave in a few days for 

13           hospitalization.

14                  It's not their fault, folks, it's our 

15           fault.  The Governor and the Mayor have 

16           really shown some real steps here, and those 

17           are the real solutions.  We shouldn't be 

18           forcing people into the same services that 

19           have failed them.  These new programs that 

20           are coming online -- help is here, and help 

21           is on the way, and much more is coming.  And 

22           those are our solutions.  And peers need to 

23           be in -- people who are in recovery like me.

24                  I'm heartened by the Mayor's 


                                                                   284

 1           appointment of the commissioner, Ashwin 

 2           Vasan.  He's a recovery guy.  He's going to 

 3           do a great job.

 4                  In terms of the services that we have, 

 5           you heard about 988.  You don't get a 

 6           policeman, you get a counselor.  Community 

 7           stabilization centers, I did call the guy 

 8           that runs it.  They do take homeless people.  

 9           Just wanted to note that clarification.

10                  There's a model in Western New York -- 

11           oh, I got to go faster than that.  So there's 

12           outreach and engagement programs, crisis 

13           stabilization, housing-first programs.  We 

14           really ought to have longer stays in 

15           hospitals, better discharge planning with 

16           housing and peer bridgers, who help people 

17           make it in the community.  These are the real 

18           remedies.

19                  So we call on policymakers to look 

20           beyond the false solutions getting pushed in 

21           this atmosphere of fear, tragedy and media 

22           pressure.

23                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

24           much, Harvey.


                                                                   285

 1                  Our next presenter, New York Lawyers 

 2           for the Public Interest, Ruth Lowenkron.

 3                  MS. LOWENKRON:  Thank you so much.  

 4           Good afternoon.  Ruth Lowenkron, director of 

 5           the Disability Justice Program at New York 

 6           Lawyers for the Public Interest.  We are also 

 7           a member of Correct Crisis Intervention 

 8           Today-New York City; you're going to hear 

 9           from one of our members.

10                  And very importantly, I want to share 

11           that I am what's known as a family member.  I 

12           have a sister with severe mental illness, and 

13           that informs a lot of my thinking and 

14           certainly provides me with a lot of the 

15           passion for my advocacy work.

16                  I'm here, like Harvey, to say -- as I 

17           have said and my organization has said since 

18           its inception -- no to expanding Kendra's 

19           Law, no to amending Kendra's Law.  And why?  

20           Because Kendra's Law is not the answer.  I am 

21           with Harvey to say of course what happened to 

22           Michelle Go, what happened to Kendra Webdale, 

23           it's horrible.  But this is not emblematic of 

24           our community.  Our community, as Harvey 


                                                                   286

 1           says, is much more likely to be the victim.  

 2           Not a violent community.  

 3                  But we don't want to ignore there can 

 4           be violence and danger, and we do want to 

 5           address it.  So how to do that is by the 

 6           other routes that Harvey and I have both laid 

 7           out extensively in our testimony, and that 

 8           Commissioner Sullivan has also addressed, and 

 9           which include housing and employment options. 

10                  What's critical is there's no place 

11           for coercion.  Forced treatment is not 

12           treatment at all.  It's long been rejected by 

13           practitioners -- I have cites to that in my 

14           testimony.  The vast racial disparities in 

15           implementation are key to consider.  

16           Seventy-seven percent of Kendra's Law has 

17           been enforced against people of color in 

18           New York City.  That is already a huge 

19           question mark about Kendra's Law.

20                  It's never been shown to be 

21           successful, notwithstanding some attempts to 

22           suggest otherwise in reports.  It's not a 

23           violence-prevention strategy.  And there are 

24           the less-invasive models that we lead to.  


                                                                   287

 1                  I suppose I should close, as an 

 2           attorney, to talk about the legal problems 

 3           with Kendra's Law, lest we think it is only a 

 4           problem from a sociological perspective.  It 

 5           is also very much so a problem legally.  

 6                  When you try to suggest that we can 

 7           amend the law with a vague standard of now 

 8           having it applied to those who have 

 9           experienced, quote, a substantial increase in 

10           symptoms of mental illness, with no 

11           definition provided, and absolutely no 

12           requirement that there's the showing of 

13           dangerousness, you are violating rights.  And 

14           I can't say it more strongly than that. 

15                  And in the same way that I think that 

16           will be a huge infringement of rights -- and 

17           again, to repeat, just the wrong way of going 

18           about what we want.  We want to eliminate 

19           dangerousness.  AOT, Kendra's Law, does not 

20           do that.  

21                  Just in the same way that we are 

22           concerned about Kendra's Law, we're also 

23           concerned about what we understand are moves 

24           afoot to amend and make it easier to commit 


                                                                   288

 1           individuals under forced commitment 

 2           procedures.  We strongly oppose that as well.

 3                  Thank you so much.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 5                  Correct Crisis Intervention Today, 

 6           Evelyn Graham Nyaasi.

 7                  MS. NYAASI:  Hello.  I would like to 

 8           thank the Assembly for allowing me the 

 9           opportunity to speak.

10                  I just want to say that I am a peer, I 

11           am also an advocacy specialist, and I work at 

12           Community Access.  And I'm also a steering 

13           member on CCIT-NYC, Correct Crisis 

14           Intervention Today.

15                  I wanted to say that my family -- 

16           someone called the police on me and said that 

17           I had a knife, and I didn't have a knife.  

18           And I was taken to Bellevue Hospital and 

19           dropped off.  They kept me there for two 

20           weeks.  I did nothing wrong, and I couldn't 

21           believe it.  When I came back out, I was 

22           traumatized and I had no trust for the 

23           doctors or therapists or family members at 

24           that time.


                                                                   289

 1                  I can only imagine how someone who's 

 2           homeless and who has a mental challenge would 

 3           feel out on the street, and also to have 

 4           something done to them when they did nothing 

 5           wrong.

 6                  CCIT-NYC opposes the extension of 

 7           Kendra's Law because no one should be forced 

 8           to do anything.  People were failed by the 

 9           mental health system and other agencies.  

10           Minorities are under systemic racism because 

11           the majority of them are the ones under 

12           Kendra's Law.  They should replace Kendra's 

13           Law with intensive mobile treatment, which 

14           has a very good success rate, and they have 

15           it already in New York City.

16                  People with mental challenges should 

17           not be hospitalized and thrown back into the 

18           streets.  I'd like to thank the Governor and 

19           Legislature for passing the New York State 

20           988 number.  CCIT-NYC would like to have the 

21           budget passed so that they can keep the 

22           program going and that everything would be 

23           good.  Yeah.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  All right.  Thank 


                                                                   290

 1           you very much.

 2                  And our last testifier on this panel, 

 3           Western New York Comprehensive Care Center 

 4           for Eating Disorders, Mary Tanillo.

 5                  MS. TANILLO:  Thank you, Chairs 

 6           Krueger, Weinstein, Brouk and Gunther for the 

 7           opportunity to discuss the Comprehensive Care 

 8           Centers for Eating Disorders today.  

 9                  I'm the director of the Western 

10           New York Center at the University of 

11           Rochester Medical Center.  And the Western 

12           New York Center, along with the Metro Center, 

13           based in New York City at New York 

14           Presbyterian/New York Psychiatric Institute, 

15           and the Northeast Center, based in Albany at 

16           Albany Medical Center, provide a 

17           cost-effective, coordinated, and integrated 

18           model of care and infrastructure across our 

19           state.  

20                  We're here to ask that you restore 

21           funding to the centers, as our funding was 

22           again dramatically slashed by 90 percent in 

23           the Executive Budget.  Without your support, 

24           this critical piece of healthcare access and 


                                                                   291

 1           infrastructure will end up closing.  

 2                  New York State established the 

 3           Comprehensive Care Centers for Eating 

 4           Disorders in 2004 in an effort to increase 

 5           timely access to comprehensive and continuous 

 6           care, to maintain high-level quality of care, 

 7           keep residents in the state for their 

 8           treatment, and avoid the creation of 

 9           redundant services in order to reduce costs.

10                  Additionally, the programs in our 

11           center network are the only ones that cover 

12           the full continuum of service specifically 

13           for eating disorder treatment for New Yorkers 

14           who are covered by Medicaid or Medicare.

15                  The centers also provide a number of 

16           services that are not covered by health 

17           insurance which are critical to timely 

18           recognition and treatment and relapse 

19           treatment.  For example, care management, 

20           care coordination, patient peer mentoring, 

21           parent peer mentoring and life coaching, 

22           especially for the outlying areas of our 

23           state with no specialty care resources.

24                  We educate lay persons and 


                                                                   292

 1           professionals, and we use something called 

 2           Project Echo, which is a telementoring, 

 3           tele-education virtual platform for K-12 

 4           school personnel, primary care and behavioral 

 5           health, to help them figure out how to 

 6           intervene more quickly.  We also offer 

 7           statewide education and online education.  

 8                  We also do research to come up with 

 9           best practices.  

10                  Providing these services helps 

11           significantly reduce the downstream costs to 

12           our state by decreasing the use of acute-care 

13           services, decreasing readmission rates for 

14           individuals with eating disorders.  These 

15           folks are known to be high service utilizers 

16           in the absence of well-coordinated care.  The 

17           center model epitomizes a coordinated, 

18           effective approach to high need/high cost 

19           individuals, which is promoted by the 

20           New York State Department of Health and 

21           DSRIP.  And what we do also supports the 

22           state's triple aim of improving care and 

23           health and reducing costs.

24                  Eating disorders are serious 


                                                                   293

 1           psychiatric illnesses associated with 

 2           significant medical and psychiatric morbidity 

 3           and high rates of mortality.  For example, 

 4           anorexia nervosa has the highest mortality 

 5           rate of all psychiatric illnesses, surpassed 

 6           only by opioid dependence.

 7                  Eating disorders are difficult to 

 8           treat.  They require specialized clinicians 

 9           and programs.  Early intervention is critical 

10           to success.  Proper diagnosis is often missed 

11           because people still don't have a lot of 

12           education in their own disciplines.  And 

13           treatment insurers often still limit 

14           treatment stays and settings.  

15                  We're grateful for the 1.06 million in 

16           additional funding the State Legislature 

17           regularly provides us in the enacted budgets, 

18           because without this we would close.  We 

19           can't meet our legislative mandates with the 

20           proposed budget of $118,000, which is less 

21           than $40,000 for each center.

22                  I appreciate the time this afternoon, 

23           and I'm happy to answer any questions.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 


                                                                   294

 1           much.

 2                  And with that, I'm going to open it up 

 3           to anyone with their hands up from the 

 4           Senate.  Samra, did you put your hand up?

 5                  SENATOR BROUK:  I did, thank you, 

 6           Chairwoman.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  You did, sorry, 

 8           yes.

 9                  SENATOR BROUK:  It was a last-minute 

10           hand raise.

11                  First of all, I just want to thank you 

12           all for your testimony today.  I want to 

13           especially thank you, Ms. Graham Nyaasi, for 

14           sharing your story and for being here with us 

15           today.  It's always powerful to hear 

16           firsthand accounts.

17                  And I want to direct my question to 

18           Harvey.  I want to thank you for pointing out 

19           the responsibility that policymakers should 

20           be taking.  I think you're absolutely right, 

21           both myself, as a newer policymaker, and 

22           those who have been in charge of funneling 

23           funds either to or away from what we know to 

24           be proven, impactful interventions for mental 


                                                                   295

 1           health and substance use crises.  And so we 

 2           do have that responsibility.

 3                  And there's a reason, as you say, that 

 4           a lot of folks who need these services, who 

 5           would likely seek out these services, do not 

 6           have them accessible to them -- they are not 

 7           in a culturally competent way.  They are not 

 8           accessible to them in their communities.  

 9           They can't afford them.  They don't know that 

10           they exist.  They're underfunded.  The 

11           workforce isn't there for them.  A number of 

12           things.

13                  So I want to give you half my time 

14           here to present -- we've heard a lot of 

15           statistics about what a success Kendra's Law 

16           has been.  On the counter side of that, what 

17           data or evidence do you have for what 

18           Kendra's Law has done to the population that 

19           is suffering from mental illness?

20                  You're muted, Harvey.

21                  MR. ROSENTHAL:  Sorry.

22                  I want to thank you for your work on 

23           988 and stabilization centers.  And 

24           Mrs. Gunther, I want to thank you, Aileen, 


                                                                   296

 1           for that million dollars that set up that 

 2           INSET program that engages people who might 

 3           otherwise be on a court order 80 percent of 

 4           the time.  So I think that's really special.

 5                  Senator, you know, on the issue of 

 6           research, a lot of people say that Kendra's 

 7           Law is proven.  But really science, as I 

 8           understand it, is when you do a control 

 9           study, head to head.  And they did that in 

10           Bellevue Hospital in 1994, after people 

11           got -- everybody got more and better 

12           services.  Half got court orders.  There was 

13           no difference.

14                  So when Kendra's Law was established, 

15           there was no real research -- there was 

16           program evaluation data, which means it was 

17           not a comparison, it was just people in the 

18           program.  Didn't say why they were getting 

19           better.

20                  And the Legislature, when they 

21           extended the law in 2005, said there should 

22           be a head-to-head study.  But when the 

23           researchers came in, they did not do that.  

24           They failed to basically compare head to 


                                                                   297

 1           head.  

 2                  So we still don't know why people are 

 3           getting better.  Higher accountability, more 

 4           access, you're getting to the front of the 

 5           line of services, you know, you're getting 

 6           sort of care coordination?  Things -- 

 7           everybody should get that.  You shouldn't 

 8           have to have a court order to get a working 

 9           system.  

10                  So we don't -- I mean, the evidence is 

11           not in on that.  And I don't think we should 

12           be fooled by that.  I think the Bellevue 

13           study was the model.  And even though the 

14           Legislature asked -- and I would ask you to 

15           ask again, to really compare them head to 

16           head, because there are 20,000 alternative 

17           sort of voluntary sort of packages, and 

18           20,000 court orders since 1999, but we've 

19           never compared them.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

21                  Assembly?

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We do not have 

23           any members.  Thank you.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  Then I'm 


                                                                   298

 1           going to take a couple of minutes.  I want 

 2           to, I think follow up on the same question as 

 3           Samra's, so both for Ruth and Harvey.

 4                  I hear you that a Kendra's Law that 

 5           simply locks people up in some way and 

 6           doesn't do any kind of real follow-up or 

 7           care, you know, is basically just what we do 

 8           with half the population on Rikers every day, 

 9           whether we ever put them through an AOT or 

10           not.  And we know that that's a horrible 

11           model and is the least humane approach to 

12           mental health certainly in my lifetime.  But 

13           it is also --

14                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  I just want to 

15           say quickly they don't lock them up, they -- 

16           just for the record, they don't lock people 

17           up, they basically afford them treatment.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  In Rikers?

19                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  I mean -- no.  

20           I thought you were talking about 

21           Kendra's Law.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Well, no, I'm 

23           saying that Kendra's Law doesn't get used 

24           statistically that often.  What we actually 


                                                                   299

 1           do is just put people in Rikers, at least in 

 2           New York City.  So -- but thank you, Aileen.

 3                  So my point was there's got to be some 

 4           model, at least in my city, for evaluating 

 5           that somebody is acting out and beyond the 

 6           ability to care for themselves that is not 

 7           24 hours in an emergency room, back on the 

 8           streets -- or take you to Rikers.  Those are 

 9           the two models we seem to have.

10                  I know you both don't think expansion 

11           or continuation of Kendra's Law is an answer.  

12           Tell me what you think does work.  Because 

13           we're not going to get the universal type of 

14           coverage you want, given limited resources 

15           and the reality we live in, how do we target 

16           the most intensive services for the most in 

17           need so that we can counter this growing 

18           panic of the general population?

19                  MR. ROSENTHAL:  I think all the 

20           services that Ruth and I spoke about are the 

21           ones that people ought to get.  There should 

22           be a lot more of them.  In fact, the 

23           stabilization centers, they should have one 

24           in the subways.  


                                                                   300

 1                  We've really got to go full-bore on 

 2           putting these kinds of services available to 

 3           people -- and all people, you know, 

 4           regardless of culture or race.

 5                  So, Senator, there's -- we -- that's 

 6           been my point today, was we have so many new 

 7           models that are coming on or have been on.  

 8           We just have to build them real fast.  And 

 9           that's why we're encouraged that the Governor 

10           with the SOS teams, and the Mayor -- we can't 

11           get them up fast enough.  We know how to help 

12           folks.

13                  And I hate to say it this way, but if 

14           somebody is a danger to themself or others, 

15           we have a statute for that.  People are 

16           admitted involuntarily.  But if they're not, 

17           then it's our responsibility to engage them.  

18           And we have all these voluntary tools now; we 

19           just need to build them up quickly.

20                  But before we -- what we ought to do 

21           is build them up quickly, not expand a law 

22           that's very controversial and is unproven, as 

23           far as I'm concerned.

24                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Ruth, you got 


                                                                   301

 1           12 seconds.  You want to add anything?

 2                  MS. LOWENKRON:  No.  Spot on, what I 

 3           would say.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 5           much, both of you.

 6                  Okay, I see no other hands -- just 

 7           double-checking -- and Helene doesn't appear 

 8           to have any, right?

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Right.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  So I'm going to 

11           thank you all for your testimony today, and 

12           your hard work every day.  

13                  And I'm going to call up the next 

14           panel, which starts with -- sorry.  It's 

15           Panel D, Judicial Process Commission, 

16           Annette Moonstream {sic}; Treatment Not Jail 

17           Coalition, Jeffrey Berman; Housing Works, 

18           Charles King; New York Association of 

19           Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Providers, 

20           John Coppola; Friends of Recovery, 

21           Dr. Angelia Smith-Wilson; and Coalition of 

22           medication-Assisted Treatment Providers and 

23           Advocates, Allegra Schorr.

24                  Starting with Judicial Process 


                                                                   302

 1           Commission, Annette Monstream {sic}.  I think 

 2           I've gotten your name wrong twice now, I 

 3           apologize.

 4                  MS. MONTSTREAM:  That's fine.  Thank 

 5           you for having me.  

 6                  Thank you for the opportunity to 

 7           testify today.  I'm a service coordinator at 

 8           the Judicial Process Commission, also known 

 9           as JPC, in Rochester, New York.  At JPC we 

10           help many people apply for and obtain 

11           Certificates of Rehabilitation, along with 

12           sealing criminal records.  

13                  There are close to 40 percent of 

14           people in state and federal prisons that are 

15           diagnosed with a mental illness.  

16           Prisonpolicy.org research shows that 

17           incarceration is linked to major depressive 

18           disorders.  The carceral environment can be 

19           damaging to mental health by removing people 

20           from society and eliminating meaning and 

21           purpose from their lives.  People with mental 

22           illness stay four to eight times longer in 

23           jail than someone without a mental illness, 

24           for the exact same charge.  


                                                                   303

 1                  At JPC we work in close collaboration 

 2           with Legal Assistance of Western New York, 

 3           the Center for Community Alternatives, and 

 4           the Monroe County Public Defenders Office, to 

 5           ensure that each of our clients has access to 

 6           treatment, both mental health and substance 

 7           abuse, including legal representation.  We 

 8           have helped hundreds of our neighbors.

 9                  We have called ourselves the Rochester 

10           Reentry Advocates, which is a group of four 

11           organizations who meet regularly and share 

12           clients internally so that we are better able 

13           to meet their needs.  Right now there are 

14           only six individual professionals providing 

15           these services.  This is insufficient to meet 

16           the needs just of the people who reach out to 

17           us for help, and absolutely insufficient to 

18           support our outreach and public education 

19           efforts.

20                  JPC was not funded at all by New York 

21           State last year, and we truly struggle to 

22           provide funding every year.  We are asking 

23           that you include possibly 300,000 in the 

24           budget to fund our collaborative efforts, 


                                                                   304

 1           which would enable us to double our staff 

 2           capacity across three organizations in Monroe 

 3           County.  We would like to ensure that all of 

 4           our clients have access to treatment, along 

 5           with advocacy by highly trained, skilled 

 6           professionals.

 7                  In closing, I would like to thank you 

 8           for allowing me to testify.  And if anyone 

 9           has any questions, please feel free to ask 

10           me, or you can refer to my written testimony.

11                  Thank you for this opportunity.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

13           much.

14                  Next we have Jeffrey Berman from the 

15           Treatment Not Jail Coalition.

16                  You're on mute, Jeff.

17                  MR. BERMAN:  Good afternoon, and thank 

18           you very much.  

19                  I am a 25-year public defender and 

20           mental health specialist with the Legal Aid 

21           Society.  I'm here to urge the Legislature to 

22           pass the Treatment Not Jail Act, which will 

23           create statewide treatment courts for 

24           justice-involved individuals with underlying 


                                                                   305

 1           and unaddressed mental health and substance 

 2           use diagnoses.

 3                  It is a lie that incarceration makes 

 4           our communities safer.  To the contrary, 

 5           incarceration actually makes people more 

 6           likely to reoffend.  In my practice I have 

 7           seen how incredibly traumatizing and 

 8           destabilizing incarceration is.  Too often, 

 9           people languish inside jail and prison with 

10           inadequate mental health treatment and 

11           medical care, while exposed every day to 

12           violence and rampant drug use.  They then 

13           emerge from incarceration into shelters or 

14           the streets without stable housing, medical 

15           care and mental health treatment in place.  

16           They're expected to procure housing, 

17           treatment, jobs and benefits while navigating 

18           the adverse collateral consequences of their 

19           criminal conviction.

20                  This is a recipe for increased 

21           substance use, untreated mental health 

22           conditions and recidivism.  It is a grotesque 

23           revolving door that harms not only these 

24           individuals but our communities as a whole.  


                                                                   306

 1           Fearmongers spread misinformation that people 

 2           with mental illness are more dangerous.  

 3           Meanwhile, the statistics prove they are 

 4           10 times more likely to be the victims rather 

 5           than the perpetrators of violence.

 6                  Misinformation also abounds that 

 7           people facing violent charges or with prior 

 8           violent convictions are less likely to 

 9           succeed in diversion.  

10                  We all care about public safety no 

11           matter our race, ethnicity, socioeconomic 

12           status, or political affiliation.  But to 

13           increase safety, we must amend existing 

14           judicial diversion to extend opportunities to 

15           those with mental health conditions.  We 

16           should no longer buy into the fearmongering 

17           fallacy of us versus them and law-abiding 

18           citizen versus criminals.  After all, we are 

19           all fellow community members equally 

20           deserving of the law's protection.

21                  The Treatment Not Jail Act will expand 

22           the Drug Court Statute passed by Senate 

23           Republicans through the budget process in 

24           2009.  Currently a minuscule fraction of 


                                                                   307

 1           nonviolent drug and theft-related charges are 

 2           eligible for judicial diversion.  However, 

 3           people with serious mental health, 

 4           intellectual or developmental disabilities 

 5           are routinely rejected because substance use 

 6           is not the primary diagnosis.  

 7                  And there is no diversion statute for 

 8           people with mental illness.  This is despite 

 9           the fact that one in five New Yorkers have a 

10           mental health diagnosis, roughly half of 

11           New York's carceral population is recommended 

12           for mental health treatment, and diversion 

13           courts that incorporate evidence-based best 

14           practices in the field of treatment science 

15           are very successful.  

16                  Access to existing makeshift mental 

17           health courts is unevenly and minimally 

18           applied, due to the prosecutor's gatekeeping 

19           power.  Abysmally, only 30 mental health 

20           courts serving approximately 140 participants 

21           exist in New York -- despite there being over 

22           40,000 incarcerated people, almost half of 

23           whom have mental health diagnoses.  Even 

24           where there is a connection between the 


                                                                   308

 1           criminal allegation and the person's mental 

 2           illness, rejection abounds.

 3                  Without legislating mental health 

 4           courts, our judges have zero power to admit a 

 5           deserving person.  With this legislation, our 

 6           communities benefit and flourish, because an 

 7           individual member in need will receive 

 8           treatment and not jail.

 9                  Thank you for your time.

10                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

11           much.

12                  Housing Works, Charles King.

13                  MR. KING:  Thank you, Chairs.

14                  We welcome the substantial commitment 

15           of funding in the Executive Budget to address 

16           substance use disorder.  We urge the 

17           Legislature to support the full range of new 

18           OASAS investments and initiatives, such as 

19           the expansion of mobile treatment services to 

20           increase access to MOUD, as well as new 

21           funding allocated to the AIDS Institute for 

22           additional harm-reduction services and 

23           naloxone distribution.

24                  We applaud Governor Hochul's 


                                                                   309

 1           appointment of Dr. Chinazo Cunningham as 

 2           commissioner of OASAS.  She is exactly who we 

 3           need in this position.

 4                  Every year, an increasing number of 

 5           New Yorkers are dying of drug overdose.  It 

 6           is time for New York to implement overdose 

 7           prevention centers.  We urgently call on the 

 8           Hochul administration to authorize and the 

 9           Governor and the Legislature to provide 

10           $3 million to fund at least the first five 

11           pilot overdose centers in the state.

12                  Significantly, two overdose prevention 

13           centers that opened in New York City in 

14           November of 2021 report that as of 

15           February 3rd they have already reversed 

16           124 overdoses.

17                  We also need to decriminalize 

18           lifesaving buprenorphine and remove it from 

19           the list of substances it is illegal to have 

20           in one's possession.  

21                  We need to transform New York's 

22           homeless response, especially for people with 

23           mental illness.  Over 30 years, Housing Works 

24           has housed many people with substance use 


                                                                   310

 1           disorder and serious mental illness.  Our 

 2           Housing First model has proved incredibly 

 3           successful, maintaining and stabilizing 

 4           people with serious behavioral health issues.  

 5           Increased support teams, as the Governor's 

 6           budget proposes, will do little to decrease 

 7           the number of unsheltered homeless people 

 8           with serious behavioral health issues, 

 9           without transitional and permanent supportive 

10           housing that provides essential behavioral 

11           health and case management services. 

12                  For good reason, most of these folk 

13           refuse to stay in the mass congregate shelter 

14           system.  Yet hospitals continue to discharge 

15           people with psychiatric admissions to the 

16           shelter system, and outreach teams do exactly 

17           the same.

18                  Housing Works is piloting a drop-in 

19           center and stabilization hotel for people who 

20           are homeless and living on the streets.  It 

21           will have all of these services on-site.  The 

22           facility will be low-threshold, harm- 

23           reduction oriented, and provide people with 

24           private rooms.  We need to replicate this 


                                                                   311

 1           model across the state.

 2                  With regard to the underinvestment in 

 3           the nonprofit sector, we urge three things:  

 4           First of all, that the COLA be applied to 

 5           Health Home.  Second, we call for a $21 an 

 6           hour minimum wage for all New York 

 7           State-funded health and human service 

 8           workers.  And third, we call for all New York 

 9           State health and service contracts to 

10           recognize the federally approved indirect 

11           rate rather than giving just a 10 percent 

12           indirect rate.

13                  Finally, in my final seconds, I'd like 

14           to call for justice for Nushawn Williams.  

15           Nushawn Williams, in 1999, a young 

16           HIV-positive Black man, pled guilty to 

17           reckless endangerment and statutory rape 

18           arising from allegations that he had sex with 

19           young women while knowing he was 

20           HIV-positive.  

21                  On April 9, 2010, four days before the 

22           end of Mr. Williams' 12-year prison sentence, 

23           then-New York State Attorney General Andrew 

24           Cuomo filed an application to have him 


                                                                   312

 1           indefinitely civilly committed as a dangerous 

 2           sex offender, based almost entirely on the 

 3           fact that he was sexually active while 

 4           HIV-positive.

 5                  I testified at Mr. Williams' review 

 6           last January, and he was denied --

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Charles, I have 

 8           to -- I'm sorry, I have to cut you off.  

 9           You've gone past your time.

10                  MR. KING:  I -- I know I have.  I'm 

11           happy to answer any questions about 

12           Mr. Williams.  Thank you.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

14                  Next, the New York Association of 

15           Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Providers, 

16           John Coppola.

17                  MR. COPPOLA:  Hi, good afternoon.

18                  I want to just thank you for the 

19           opportunity to testify on behalf of substance 

20           use disorder prevention, treatment, recovery 

21           and harm-reduction service providers across 

22           the state.

23                  And I want to begin by thanking 

24           Governor Hochul for making it possible to 


                                                                   313

 1           provide testimony this year with actual 

 2           resources on the table that could make a 

 3           significant difference and will make a 

 4           significant difference.  

 5                  And also thank you to Commissioner 

 6           Cunningham for setting the right tone for 

 7           discussion of the OASAS budget by starting 

 8           with a thank you to the substance use 

 9           disorder's workforce in the middle of the 

10           COVID crisis and overdose epidemic.  I really  

11           appreciate that.  

12                  And I want to just say that relative 

13           to the Governor's budget, we're very 

14           supportive of the proposals that folks have 

15           already specifically referenced.  I want to 

16           make a plea that as the workforce increases 

17           and incentives are implemented, that we leave 

18           nobody behind, that we use a lens of equity 

19           in looking at that particular -- at those 

20           increases, so that people who do 

21           transportation, people who do custodial work 

22           in facilities, while they don't necessarily 

23           do direct practice per se, that they also be 

24           included, and everybody be included.


                                                                   314

 1                  And then also we support the 

 2           $500 million look at the -- to strengthen the 

 3           workforce, to restore the 30 percent that has 

 4           been cut from their salaries over the failure 

 5           to include cost-of-living increases in their 

 6           salaries for 15 to 20 years, almost.  So we 

 7           really support permanent changes to the 

 8           workforce so that they can get the support 

 9           they need.

10                  A small adjustment that we'd like to 

11           request in the capital budget -- the Governor 

12           moved from $100,000 to 150,000 the definition 

13           of minor repair and maintenance.  So we'd 

14           like for the minor repair and maintenance 

15           definition to be increased from 150,000 to 

16           $200,000, particularly given all of the 

17           inflationary things that are happening now 

18           with building supplies, et cetera.

19                  I want to mention the social work 

20           licensing issue, which all of you have been 

21           dealing with for close to two decades now.  I 

22           want to suggest that since we have had the 

23           exemptions in place for that entire 19 years 

24           and the system has been able to function very 


                                                                   315

 1           well, that we make the exemptions permanent 

 2           and that we move, as the Governor suggests, 

 3           oversight of the workforce from State Ed to 

 4           DOH.

 5                  I want to also suggest that we look at 

 6           the pharmacy cut-out, carveout.  The 340B 

 7           program provides vital services to 

 8           underinsured, uninsured, and undocumented 

 9           folks.  We want to make sure that they get 

10           the services that they will lose if that 

11           carveout goes forward.

12                  I want to support the Governor's 

13           proposal that we make changes to managed 

14           care.  

15                  I just want to end by saying that 

16           we've asked you, the Senate and Assembly, to 

17           make sure that the funds that are in this 

18           budget are used well and support the vision 

19           of our commissioner to strengthen services to 

20           the underserved communities for prevention, 

21           treatment, recovery, and harm reduction.  

22                  Thank you.  

23                  Senator Krueger, I think you need to 

24           unmute yourself.


                                                                   316

 1                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Well, thank you 

 2           very much.  I failed to do that.

 3                  Dr. Angelia Smith-Wilson, Friends of 

 4           Recovery.

 5                  MS. SMITH-WILSON:  Good afternoon, 

 6           Chairs.  

 7                  Friends of Recovery New York thanks 

 8           you so much.  We love coming here and being 

 9           able to bring the voice of the recovery 

10           community.  We thank our legislative partners 

11           who have continued to work with us and who 

12           have shown up time and time again -- Senator 

13           Pete Harckham, the Senate Majority Leader, 

14           and all of our legislative partners.

15                  We also stand in solidarity today with 

16           our mental health providers, as the recovery 

17           community has seen far too many Daniel 

18           Prudes.  We've felt and seen far too many.  

19           And so we stand in solidarity with our mental 

20           health partners today.

21                  FOR-New York works to build an 

22           infrastructure around the state through local 

23           recovery community organizations.  We are 

24           here to strongly advocate for that 


                                                                   317

 1           infrastructure to be supported financially.  

 2           We are forever grateful for the increase in 

 3           the budget, but I'm not sure if you guys are 

 4           aware that recovery is still not funded as it 

 5           should be in order to properly support 

 6           treatment, individuals who leave treatment.

 7                  And not to mention there are 

 8           individuals who never make it to treatment.  

 9           They receive services directly in the 

10           community from recovery community 

11           organizations and recovery community outreach 

12           centers.

13                  We are in strong support of building 

14           an infrastructure of recovery-oriented 

15           systems of care that will address people 

16           where they are, in the community.  If an 

17           individual has, like I said, come from 

18           treatment, then recovery-community-oriented 

19           systems of care support an individual as they 

20           remain in the community.

21                  I think New York has a -- we're at an 

22           opportunity here where we can really grow the 

23           infrastructure of recovery community-based 

24           services beyond what we've had over the last 


                                                                   318

 1           year.  We've suffered and continue to suffer 

 2           losses to the opioid epidemic as well as 

 3           COVID.  FOR-New York is going beyond New York 

 4           and advocating with our federal partners for 

 5           a recovery set-aside.  And I think this is an 

 6           excellent opportunity for the Legislature to 

 7           really go beyond other states and support a 

 8           recovery set-aside.

 9                  This recovery set-aside would ensure 

10           every year the funds that are needed to build 

11           this recovery-community-based infrastructure 

12           that's needed, and also to improve the peer 

13           workforce and be able to properly pay the 

14           peer workforce.  You've heard today from many 

15           of our partners with regards to workforce.  I 

16           just -- I would be remiss if I did not speak 

17           about the peer workforce.

18                  So those are our concerns and our 

19           considerations that we would like for you to 

20           consider today.

21                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

22           much.

23                  And then our last for this panel, 

24           Coalition of Medication-Assisted Treatment 


                                                                   319

 1           Providers and Advocates, Allegra Schorr.

 2                  MS. SCHORR:  Thank you so much.  

 3                  Thank you for the opportunity to 

 4           testify today.  And we are also thankful for 

 5           a really good budget.

 6                  But according to the CDC, fentanyl 

 7           overdoses are now the leading cause of death 

 8           in people 18 to 45.  Since 2020, fentanyl 

 9           overdoses have killed more people age 18 to 

10           45 than COVID.  And that is too young to die.  

11           And it's also crucial that overdose deaths 

12           for Black Americans exceeded the rate of 

13           white Americans.

14                  So as I said, we're grateful that the 

15           Executive Budget expands access to lifesaving 

16           medications that have been proven to be 

17           effective to treat opiate use disorder, and 

18           that it specifically supports access to 

19           methadone.  And that's important because as 

20           we see fentanyl, we're going to need access 

21           to that higher -- those higher medications 

22           that methadone specifically is going to be 

23           able to treat effectively.

24                  There are many initiatives that we 


                                                                   320

 1           support, including mobile methadone.  But 

 2           nevertheless, to implement these initiatives 

 3           and to ensure that all New Yorkers who need 

 4           MAT can access it, we must take the 

 5           opportunity to address some of the 

 6           fundamental underlying gaps that exist in the 

 7           OASAS system.

 8                  So we keep talking about workforce 

 9           shortage.  We have to be able to address 

10           that, to expand and to maintain these kinds 

11           of initiatives without destabilizing our 

12           existing programs.  So yes, the 5.4 percent 

13           COLA is important, but it is insufficient to 

14           address this current crisis.  So we need that 

15           $500 million that we asked for, a Medicaid 

16           rate increase.  

17                  But specifically, it's going to be 

18           necessary to restructure that reimbursement 

19           rate.  We're going to need to look at how to 

20           incentivize MAT and how to pay for 

21           higher-credentialed staff in our programs so 

22           that we can support co-occurring disorders 

23           within those programs that we're now doing.

24                  And a major barrier to expanding 


                                                                   321

 1           access is the disparity that is already there 

 2           in our outpatient program in the OASAS 

 3           system.  So an OASAS SUD outpatient provider 

 4           and an OTP provider, both outpatient -- the 

 5           outpatient program gets paid at a higher rate 

 6           than the OTP for the identical service.  

 7                  So why would an outpatient OASAS 

 8           provider want to go ahead and add that 

 9           methadone when they're not going to get paid 

10           the same amount, they're going to get paid 

11           lower?  It does not make sense for them to do 

12           that.

13                  So finally, I just want to call our 

14           attention to that we have to be mindful of 

15           expanding services when communities around 

16           New York are seeing an increase in 

17           homelessness, active drug use and crime on 

18           the streets.  So that's something that we're 

19           going to need to pay attention to.

20                  Thank you very much for taking the 

21           time to hear us today.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

23                  And the first hand I saw up was Pete 

24           Harckham, the chair of our OASAS Committee.


                                                                   322

 1                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  Thank you very 

 2           much, Madam Chair.  

 3                  And thank you to all the panelists.  

 4           Great to see everybody.  Fabulous testimony.

 5                  Unfortunately, in my short time I can 

 6           only really focus on one subject area, so I 

 7           want to follow-up on what Allegra was saying 

 8           and also what John alluded to about the 

 9           Medicaid reimbursement rate.  You know, 

10           there's some good things to look at in the 

11           budget, but one of the underlying 

12           fundamentals has been the insufficient 

13           Medicaid rate and then some of the structural 

14           things about that. 

15                  So, Allegra, if you could expand a 

16           little more.  And then, John, if you could 

17           talk about how it impacts your providers.  

18           And then if anyone else wants to join in.  

19           And if everyone could be as short and 

20           succinct as possible so we can get as many 

21           folks in.  Thanks.

22                  MS. SCHORR:  Sure.  So thank you for 

23           that question, Senator, I appreciate it.

24                  On the outpatient side I would say 


                                                                   323

 1           OASAS has a plan and has been working on 

 2           integrating the two licenses.  But a big 

 3           barrier is this -- the fact that there's a 

 4           disparity in the rate system.  So if we could 

 5           look at that and put some resources into 

 6           balancing those two rate structures.

 7                  I think also we've heard over and over 

 8           again that the ability for outpatient 

 9           programs that are not OTPs to have more 

10           prescribers is a big barrier to adding MAT 

11           services.

12                  And then as we talked about, being 

13           able to support the higher credential to get 

14           some master's level people that could 

15           actually diagnose those mental health needs 

16           for our patients.  And I do think that there 

17           are ways that we could look at to make 

18           adjustments in those ways -- get that 

19           prescriber on board and make those 

20           adjustments.

21                  And then very briefly, we do need to 

22           look at how to add methadone to our inpatient 

23           so that we get a more seamless delivery.  

24           We're still so very siloed, and there's 


                                                                   324

 1           just -- that needs to be addressed also.

 2                  SENATOR HARCKHAM:  John?

 3                  MR. COPPOLA:  So I think a big thing 

 4           is just looking at rates and saying, you 

 5           know, are rates adjusted on an annual basis 

 6           to keep up with inflation?  It should not be 

 7           possible for somebody to have the same rates 

 8           today that they had 10 years ago.

 9                  But I think a more fundamental thing 

10           is have rates been trended?  Anyplace where 

11           they have not, why not?  And then how do we 

12           sort of revise that?

13                  And I think a second thing is really 

14           looking at incentivizing best practice, 

15           incentivizing justice, equity, diversity and 

16           inclusion as a main piece of the way services 

17           are delivered, like rewarding a behavior, 

18           attaching value to the services, and 

19           incorporating that into the rate system.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

21                  Helene, Assembly?

22                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We do have 

23           Assemblyman Burdick.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you.


                                                                   325

 1                  I first have a question for 

 2           Mr. Berman.  And thank you for your testimony 

 3           and for your support for the Treatment Not 

 4           Jail Act.  I am a cosponsor of that, and part 

 5           of that is based on my being a member of the 

 6           Correction Committee of the Assembly and 

 7           seeing the need for this.  

 8                  Do you know whether there's any kind 

 9           of budget initiative, either in the 

10           Governor's proposed budget or whether there's 

11           any member who is proposing additions to the 

12           budget for, say, a pilot program to get this 

13           off the ground?

14                  MR. BERMAN:  Thank you.  I don't know 

15           of a pilot program to get this off the 

16           ground.

17                  But I will say this.  Right now all 

18           treatment courts in New York State have a 

19           budget of $15 million.  And we are proposing 

20           doubling that amount to prepare 

21           implementation for fiscal year 2023.  That 

22           would involve hiring, training, setting aside 

23           court --

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Okay.  Let me 


                                                                   326

 1           interrupt you, if I can.

 2                  MR. BERMAN:  Sure.

 3                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  What I'd like to 

 4           do is if you can contact me offline --

 5                  MR. BERMAN:  Sure.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  -- so that I can 

 7           see whether there's someone that I can join 

 8           with on that initiative.

 9                  I have a question for Angelia 

10           Smith-Wilson.  And there are a number of 

11           bills in here that it only lists the Senate 

12           numbers.  And so perhaps if you can provide 

13           me the Assembly companion bills, that would 

14           be very helpful.  And I may already be on 

15           them.  And if not, I have a good deal of 

16           interest in it.

17                  MS. SMITH-WILSON:  Absolutely.  We can 

18           get that to you.  I do have the Assembly 

19           numbers here, but I will have our director of 

20           policy email you -- email your office right 

21           away.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  That would be 

23           great.  That would be great.  Thank you so 

24           much.


                                                                   327

 1                  MS. SMITH-WILSON:  You are welcome.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  That's all I've 

 3           got, thanks.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  I don't 

 5           see --

 6                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We also have 

 7           Assemblywoman Gallagher.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Good.  I'm just 

 9           going to make -- just one quick question -- 

10           no, that's okay -- also for Jeffrey Berman.  

11                  My understanding is there are mental 

12           health courts in each judicial district.  So 

13           how would your community court for the 

14           mentally ill model be different?

15                  MR. BERMAN:  Sure.  I mean, what we 

16           are proposing is expanding existing Criminal 

17           Procedure Law 216, which is very, very 

18           limited in eligible charges -- expanding it 

19           so that anybody with a mental health 

20           diagnosis or intellectual disability or a 

21           neurocognitive disability or a traumatic 

22           brain injury -- and the list goes on -- would 

23           be eligible for judicial diversion in 

24           New York State.


                                                                   328

 1                  So we would be expanding existing 

 2           CPL 216 and essentially legislating mental 

 3           health courts in the State of New York.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And I'm familiar 

 5           with the community courts, at least as they 

 6           operate in New York City.  Does one argue 

 7           that it really costs a lot more money, or 

 8           you're just changing the job description of 

 9           some courts and courtrooms?

10                  MR. BERMAN:  So I think this -- I'm 

11           going to go back to my prior answer.  So 

12           again, we are expanding what is already in 

13           existence right now.  

14                  So right now all treatment courts in 

15           New York State are covered by a $15 million 

16           budget, and that includes the drug courts, 

17           that includes the ad hoc mental health 

18           courts, ad hoc veterans courts.  What I mean 

19           by "ad hoc" is they're not legislative, 

20           they're not statutory.

21                  So we are proposing doubling that 

22           amount of money -- and what's beautiful about 

23           Treatment Not Jail is we're building on an 

24           existing framework of statewide Article 216 


                                                                   329

 1           courts.  We already have drug courts in each 

 2           county.  The change is to expand it so that 

 3           people with mental health conditions or other 

 4           types of disabilities can access treatment in 

 5           each county.

 6                  So that -- I hope that answers your 

 7           question.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  No, it does.  But 

 9           I'm -- probably I was looking for the answer 

10           that it decreases the number of people going 

11           through more traditional courtrooms so it 

12           actually should decrease OCA costs on one 

13           side of the ledger, so to speak, because 

14           we're shifting into another model that you 

15           argue is more effective for people.

16                  MR. BERMAN:  Essentially, yes.  We 

17           would -- the idea would be to centralize all 

18           treatment-based dispositions throughout New 

19           York State in each county, in a mental health 

20           court or in a drug court.  And then we would 

21           have specialized treatment staff, specialized 

22           judges who are intimately familiar with 

23           providing treatment mandates to people who 

24           become entrenched in the criminal legal 


                                                                   330

 1           system with health conditions.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 3                  Now back to you, Assembly.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We have two 

 5           Assemblymembers.  Assemblymember Gallagher 

 6           first.

 7                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER:  Hi.  It is 

 8           such an honor to be here and asking this 

 9           panel questions; so many of you run 

10           organizations that I really look up to.

11                  And one of the things I was thinking 

12           about while listening to your testimony is 

13           that substance use disorder is a chronic 

14           condition.  It is ongoing and it needs 

15           constant care.  So I'm wondering, what gaps 

16           do you see in the continuum of helping people 

17           recover should we be advocating for to fill?  

18                  You know, we've been talking about 

19           housing and we've been talking about Medicaid 

20           reimbursement, but I know that there are many 

21           other pieces of a program that helps someone 

22           reenter into society, and I'm wondering what 

23           we could offer specifically in the budget 

24           that might help with that.


                                                                   331

 1                  MR. COPPOLA:  I think, you know, when 

 2           the commissioner spoke a little bit earlier, 

 3           she mentioned harm reduction.  And, you know, 

 4           that's a whole area that has been overlooked 

 5           and underfunded forever.  And, you know, even 

 6           underfunded at the Department of Health.  So 

 7           there's I think a significant amount of work 

 8           that could be done to strengthen harm 

 9           reduction.  I think the recovery programs are 

10           not available, readily available in every 

11           county in the state.  That's really not 

12           acceptable.  There's a significant amount -- 

13           you know, as all of us have been absolutely 

14           deluged with advertisements for gambling, 

15           et cetera, and there's very little in the way 

16           of resources for people with gambling 

17           disorder.  The sort of need to counter all of 

18           the advertising and also the problem gambling 

19           I think is a huge need that's just coming up.  

20                  And I think, you know, just the 

21           underfunding of prevention for years and 

22           years and years.  I mean, there is no 

23           shortage of really invaluable opportunities 

24           to invest in the system.  A lot of the 


                                                                   332

 1           innovative medication-assisted treatment 

 2           issues related to transporting medication, 

 3           making it more accessible, the strengthening 

 4           of our residential treatment programs -- 

 5           there's no place in the system that hasn't 

 6           been impacted by the failure to adequately 

 7           fund it for the last two decades.

 8                  So I think there's lots of 

 9           opportunities to do some really exciting 

10           things.

11                  MS. SMITH-WILSON:  And I think just to 

12           support what John is saying, with regards 

13           to -- FOR-New York does a point-in-time 

14           survey every year at our conference where we 

15           intently and purposely ask the members of the 

16           recovery community, What are the issues?  

17           What are you facing with regards to gaps in 

18           services, or what are your concerns?  So we 

19           have submitted that information in the form 

20           of our testimony even today.  

21                  But one of the things that I think 

22           about is, you know, when individuals have an 

23           opportunity to go to a recovery community 

24           center, an outreach center, they, you know, 


                                                                   333

 1           have an opportunity to work with someone 

 2           one-on-one where they can look at every 

 3           aspect of their life.  And if that is dental 

 4           needs -- I mean, a lot of times folks don't 

 5           even think about that.  And, you know, we are 

 6           focusing on the major things:  Housing, as we 

 7           should; transportation, as we should.

 8                  But there's individuals, as they look 

 9           to restore their lives and their dignity, 

10           there are those in-between services that we 

11           kind of take for granted.  And so I think 

12           that having an opportunity for individuals to 

13           have these recovery community outreach 

14           centers in their community, where they live, 

15           to actually, you know, see and feel what goes 

16           on, gives people an opportunity to partner 

17           with someone right in their neighborhood to 

18           begin to help them to rebuild their lives.

19                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

20                  So now we'll move to Assemblywoman 

21           Kelles.

22                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  Thank you so 

23           much.  And I think there's no way to ask all 

24           the questions of, you know, of all of you.  


                                                                   334

 1           The information you've given is incredible.  

 2           I wish I had several days to read the 

 3           testimonies before the event, but I will go 

 4           through all of them and may follow up with 

 5           some of you.  

 6                  I did have one question for 

 7           Mr. Berman.  I asked a question of OCA in 

 8           their hearing about mental health courts, or 

 9           wellness courts and whether or not it's 

10           possible to have one in each county, given 

11           how successful they are.  And the response 

12           was basically "We need more money for that," 

13           or "It's too expensive."  

14                  And so I'm wondering -- you know, you 

15           mentioned 15 million to add to all of them.  

16           Is the vision that you have that you would 

17           centralize, in each county, that there would 

18           be sort of a central administrative system in 

19           place for all of the treatment courts?  Is 

20           that what you were envisioning?  And is that 

21           a recommendation?  

22                  My understanding is that -- and you 

23           mentioned this, and so I'm just trying to get 

24           clarification -- that there are treatment -- 


                                                                   335

 1           there are assistants and case managers in the 

 2           court system specific to each treatment court 

 3           that are necessary and that might not be able 

 4           to overlap between them.  So I'm just trying 

 5           to get a sense of what that picture would be 

 6           and whether or not that 15 million that 

 7           you're requesting would cover all of the 

 8           treatment courts.  In your assessment.

 9                  MR. BERMAN:  So the 15 million would 

10           be an amount of money that would help, 

11           essentially, before this new law takes place, 

12           takes effect.  That money will be used to 

13           prepare the State of New York, prepare the 

14           courts, prepare the stakeholders, to put 

15           everything in place so that it runs well.

16                  As I said before, there's already -- 

17           there already are treatment courts in each 

18           county in New York State.  One of the key 

19           components of the Treatment Not Jail Act is a 

20           transfer mechanism.  What that means is that 

21           if you don't have a mental health court in 

22           your community, then you would be able to 

23           transfer your treatment to another community 

24           that does.  And that's something that we can 


                                                                   336

 1           discuss, if you'd like.

 2                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES:  I would love to 

 3           follow up.

 4                  And then just really quickly, in my 

 5           last couple of seconds, one of the things we 

 6           haven't discussed, and this I guess is for 

 7           the whole panel, is support in workforce 

 8           development for the population.  So if 

 9           someone wants to attack that issue, that 

10           would be great.

11                  MS. MONTSTREAM:  Just for myself, I 

12           mentioned that our non-for-profit 

13           organizations have been helping apply for 

14           Certificates of Rehabilitation or 

15           Certificates of Good Conduct once someone has 

16           a conviction.  

17                  And some of the mental health and 

18           substance abuse participants need their 

19           background cleared so that they would be able 

20           to be employed and become productive citizens 

21           in the community, and that holds them back.  

22           So that we have to obtain their rap sheet, we 

23           have to go through their rap sheet, and then 

24           they have to apply.  


                                                                   337

 1                  And so that's very emotional, also, 

 2           for them to go back through and go -- writing 

 3           personal statements, going back through their 

 4           life experience, what had happened, and then 

 5           applying for that.

 6                  But we do a lot of encouragement, we 

 7           help them be positive, take classes, go into 

 8           treatment and achieve those certificates of 

 9           rehabilitation and succeed in life.  So that 

10           is our goal, is helping the people become 

11           independent in their life.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

14                  All right, I'm going to ask -- I'm 

15           going to thank this panel.  

16                  And I'm going to move on to Panel E, 

17           where we're starting with the Family Advisory 

18           Board, Care Design New York, Rachelle 

19           Kivanoski, member; Families Together in 

20           New York State -- actually, I think we have 

21           not heard from her, we'll see if she shows 

22           up -- New York Self-Determination Coalition, 

23           Susan Platkin; and the Self-Advocacy 

24           Association of New York State, BJ Stasio. 


                                                                   338

 1                  So we'll start with Rachelle.

 2                  MS. KIVANOSKI:  Good afternoon, 

 3           everyone.  I am the parent of a 38-year-old 

 4           son with autism and intellectual disability.  

 5           I speak today representing not only Care 

 6           Design but the Member and Family Advisory 

 7           Boards of all seven Care Coordination 

 8           Organizations and our 110,000 members and 

 9           their families.  

10                  I want to thank Senator Krueger, 

11           Assemblymember Weinstein, Senator Mannion, 

12           Assemblymember Abinanti, and all the 

13           committee members here today for the 

14           opportunity to share our views on the 

15           proposed budget for OPWDD.

16                  We are enormously grateful for the new 

17           spirit of collaboration displayed by Governor 

18           Hochul and Acting Commissioner Neifeld.  We 

19           welcome their recognition of the needs of 

20           people with I/DD and also share their 

21           assessment of the severity of the workforce 

22           emergency we are confronting.

23                  We applaud the proposed COLA, which 

24           will begin to financially stabilize I/DD 


                                                                   339

 1           providers and enhance the resources available 

 2           for people under self-direction.

 3                  The administration has proposed many 

 4           potentially life-changing measures, such as 

 5           the enhanced ISS subsidy, money for new 

 6           supported housing, and plans for enhancing 

 7           employment opportunities.  The career ladders 

 8           and enhanced educational opportunities for 

 9           DSPs are also critical investments.  

10                  But the sad reality is that none of 

11           these wonderful new programs are viable 

12           without a stable workforce.  It is 

13           unspeakably heartbreaking that many people 

14           with I/DD are now consigned to a 

15           quasi-institutional lifestyle.  So many spend 

16           their entire days indoors, whether in their 

17           group home, their family home, their 

18           apartment, or a day hab program -- or 

19           sometimes, sadly, just stuck in bed.  Access 

20           to programming is even more limited for those 

21           with the most complex needs or historic lack 

22           of access.  

23                  The resulting diminished self-esteem, 

24           loss of skills and behavioral regression is a 


                                                                   340

 1           tragic byproduct of this staffing crisis.

 2                  We must, however, respectfully 

 3           disagree with Acting Commissioner Neifeld.  

 4           The proposed DSP bonuses will at best only 

 5           help to maintain the unacceptable status quo.  

 6           One-time funding does not raise the base pay 

 7           above minimum wage and so will not 

 8           significantly help recruitment.  Taking care 

 9           of this vulnerable and extremely diverse and 

10           complex population is clearly not a 

11           minimum-wage job.  

12                  We urge the Legislature to start the 

13           process of permanently increasing DSP wages 

14           by 20 percent this year.  Convert the final 

15           proposed $3,000 bonus payment to a salary 

16           increase for these workers of approximately 

17           10 percent now.

18                  We also ask for an additional 

19           investment of at least $100 million in state 

20           funds -- 200 million with federal match -- 

21           and support OPWDD's proposal prioritizing 

22           part of the provider COLA to fund wage and 

23           benefit increases for their lower-paid 

24           workers. 


                                                                   341

 1                  Ultimately, establishing a permanently 

 2           funded living wage is the only way to resolve 

 3           this acute and chronic staffing emergency.  

 4           We must have a concrete plan to phase in a 

 5           true living wage for DSPs within the next 

 6           three years.  This would --

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.  I'm 

 8           sorry, you've used up your time.  But we have 

 9           the full testimony.  Thank you.

10                  Next is the New York State 

11           Self-Determination Coalition.

12                  MS. PLATKIN:  Hi.  Good afternoon.  

13           Thanks for the opportunity to comment on the 

14           budget.  I represent the New York 

15           Self-Determination Coalition, an independent 

16           group of volunteers who have been advocating 

17           for self-directed services for people with 

18           I/DD for over 10 years.

19                  We appreciate the proposed increases 

20           in funding to OPWDD.  However, there is more 

21           work to do.  OPWDD's self-directed services 

22           represent the most authentic expression of 

23           the ADA, the Olmstead decision, and the HCBS 

24           Home and Community Settings Rule.  


                                                                   342

 1                  For example, my daughter Ruth, 35, has 

 2           used self-directed services since finishing 

 3           high school.  Despite being challenged by a 

 4           rate genetic disorder causing significant 

 5           intellectual disability and hard-to-treat 

 6           bipolar disorder, and requiring her to have 

 7           24/7 support, she lives in a regular house 

 8           with a roommate.  With the help of staff, she 

 9           shops, cooks, cleans, does laundry, takes out 

10           the trash, says hi to her neighbors just like 

11           the rest of us.  Despite all her challenges, 

12           Ruth is living a good life with friends, a 

13           part-time job, and hobbies in the community 

14           where she grew up and went to school.

15                  To live safely and productively, most 

16           people with I/DD needs staff.  Even as our 

17           lives now are starting to open up, many 

18           people with I/DD are still in virtual 

19           lockdown without staff to support them.  New 

20           York State needs to pay a living wage to all 

21           direct support staff.

22                  Parents of neurotypical children worry 

23           about where they'll go to college, will they 

24           find love.  Get any group of parents of kids 


                                                                   343

 1           with I/DD and ask them their worst fear:  

 2           It's "Where will my child be when I'm gone?"  

 3           For parents over 60, this fear keeps us awake 

 4           at 3 a.m.

 5                  In the past, the solution was get your 

 6           kid into a group home.  But we've moved on 

 7           from this for most people with I/DD.  We 

 8           applaud the proposed increase in the ISS 

 9           housing subsidy in the Governor's budget.  

10           Increasing subsidies to the HUD fair market 

11           rate will allow people with various support 

12           needs to better afford to live where and with 

13           whom they want.  People will no longer have 

14           to give up living in neighborhoods that they 

15           know and where people know them.

16                  Next I want to talk about access to 

17           self-direction.  The Department of Health's 

18           CDPA program allows consumers or their 

19           representatives to recruit, hire, train and 

20           supervise staff to do health-related tasks.  

21           But people who use OPWDD's self-directed 

22           services are unable to use their direct 

23           support staff for these tasks.  That means if 

24           someone needs assistance taking medicine or 


                                                                   344

 1           insulin shots, for example, they must either 

 2           live with their parents or in certified 

 3           housing.  They have no other options.

 4                  These are not highly technical tasks; 

 5           they're things that people usually do for 

 6           themselves.  There's no medical reason not to 

 7           extend what has been working so well for 

 8           personal care to people with I/DD by amending 

 9           Section 6908 of the Nurse Practice Act.

10                  Finally, more than any other group, 

11           people with I/DD need an independent 

12           ombudsperson.  Because of their disabilities, 

13           they're even more challenged to deal with the 

14           complex and often inefficient systems they're 

15           forced to use.  Such a program would provide 

16           individual assistance to people with I/DD, 

17           family members and associates statewide, 

18           advise and advocate on individual cases and 

19           concerns, and provide accessible training on 

20           navigating the system.

21                  Thank you.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

23           much.

24                  And our last on this panel, BJ Stasio, 


                                                                   345

 1           Self-Advocacy Association of New York.

 2                  MR. STASIO:  Hello, everyone.  Thank 

 3           you for having me here today.  Our president, 

 4           Tony Phillips, sends his regrets; he could 

 5           not be here today.  That's why I'm here.  I'm 

 6           the co-vice president of the board of 

 7           directors for SANYS.  

 8                  And our points are we would like to 

 9           thank the Governor for the proposed budget.  

10           It is clear to see that New Yorkers with 

11           disabilities are once again a priority, and 

12           we ask that you stand with our Governor on 

13           many areas of the proposed budget that will 

14           help improve our lives.

15                  The Governor is taking our direct 

16           support professional workforce crisis 

17           seriously, and we ask that you approve the 

18           following proposed investments in healthcare:  

19                  Worker retention bonuses that would 

20           help incentivize DSPs to remain in their 

21           current positions; 

22                  A much-needed cost of living 

23           adjustment;

24                  Pathways to promote new skilled 


                                                                   346

 1           workers in the DSP workforce, such as the 

 2           SUNY for All Partnership; the Direct 

 3           Professional Career and Technical Education 

 4           Program at BOCES; and the Connect Immigrant 

 5           New Yorkers to Direct Support Professionals 

 6           Program.  

 7                  These are all important, but they are 

 8           not enough.  We need investments to increase 

 9           personal care assistance wages for people.  

10           Many New Yorkers with developmental 

11           disabilities depend on CDPA staff to meet 

12           their personal care needs, and many of us are 

13           in trouble.  Even if the other investments 

14           happen, if we don't address the issue with 

15           CDPAP many of us will have our most basic 

16           needs not met and we will continue to suffer 

17           at home or end up falling into hospitals, 

18           nursing homes, or many traditional services.

19                  This situation cannot stand anymore.  

20           It has taken years for New York State to 

21           understand and begin to respond to the DSP 

22           staffing crisis.  You must also respond to 

23           the personal care crisis.  People are really 

24           suffering, and it is our duty to act.  The 


                                                                   347

 1           time to act is now.  We ask that you add an 

 2           increase to the CDPAP personal care assistant 

 3           wages in the New York State budget.

 4                  Last, I would like to -- I would like 

 5           to congratulate the Governor on the 

 6           appointment of the disability officer today.  

 7           I read it, and it was good to see that.  

 8                  However, once again, this is not 

 9           enough.  New Yorkers with developmental 

10           disabilities need an ombuds office to ensure 

11           that our rights are being honored and that 

12           our services are of the highest quality.  And 

13           we ask that you recognize and fund this need 

14           in the new budget.

15                  Thank you.

16                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

17           much.

18                  All right, I don't see Senate hands 

19           up.  I do see an Assembly hand, Helene.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes.  So we go 

21           to -- first to Assemblyman Epstein.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you, 

23           Chair.  

24                  And thank you, panelists, for being 


                                                                   348

 1           here, and your testimony.  

 2                  Winnie {sic}, if -- I just wanted to 

 3           turn our attention just to employment 

 4           opportunities for people with disabilities.  

 5           What do you think the state needs to do to 

 6           strengthen those so we can employ more people 

 7           with disabilities across the state?  I know I 

 8           only have a couple of minutes, so if you 

 9           could be short on your answer, I'd appreciate 

10           it.

11                  MS. SCHIFF:  So should I comment?  

12           Because this is not my panel.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Oh, sorry.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Oh, no, no, no.  

15           Winnie will come back when you're in the 

16           right panel.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Sorry about 

18           that, Winnie, I apologize.

19                  (Laughter.)

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Can I just -- 

21           for the other panelists, I just want to also 

22           raise the issue about the 24-hour work rule 

23           for care for people with disabilities.  

24                  And I just wanted to get a sense of 


                                                                   349

 1           how people felt about the split shifts or the 

 2           24-hour work cycle and whether people felt 

 3           like it was helping -- is it having a 

 4           negative impact on the people -- the 

 5           recipients in the industry, or a positive 

 6           impact?

 7                  (No response.)

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I guess nobody 

 9           wants to take you up on that one, Harvey.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Well, okay.  All 

11           right, then I'll come back for the next 

12           panel, then, Liz.  Thank you.

13                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  You're welcome.

14                  Helene, I think you have another 

15           member with a hand up?

16                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes, 

17           Assemblyman Burdick.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thanks very 

19           much.  And I want to thank all the panelists 

20           for their advocacy and for taking the time to 

21           meet with us.

22                  I have a question for Susan Platkin.  

23           And you mention in here in your testimony 

24           advocating an increase in the ISS housing 


                                                                   350

 1           subsidy.  And I'm wondering if you could be 

 2           more specific about that.

 3                  MS. PLATKIN:  Sure.

 4                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  And also whether 

 5           you happen to have any members in the Senate 

 6           or in the Assembly that are trying to urge an 

 7           increase in that, either through the 30-day 

 8           amendment or by going through the one-house 

 9           budget route.

10                  MS. PLATKIN:  Yeah, I do believe it's 

11           in the Governor's budget.  I could be 

12           incorrect, but I believe that it is.

13                  And, you know, I think Senator 

14           Mannion --

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  And are you 

16           satisfied with the proposal of the Governor 

17           that's in the budget?

18                  MS. PLATKIN:  Yeah, to my 

19           understanding it's basically a housing 

20           subsidy that allows people who don't want to 

21           live in a group home to be able to --

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Sure.  No, I'm 

23           familiar with it, I just wanted to know 

24           whether you're satisfied with that.


                                                                   351

 1                  MS. PLATKIN:  I believe that it's not 

 2           really completely clear that it is going to 

 3           the -- I've heard talk that it will go to the 

 4           HUD rate, and that would be great.  It's been 

 5           10 years since it was increased.

 6                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  And then you 

 7           also -- is there legislation that you're 

 8           advocating for amending the Nurse Practice 

 9           Act?

10                  MS. PLATKIN:  Yeah, it -- I don't 

11           believe it's -- I think it's been -- it 

12           was -- I don't believe it's in front of 

13           anyone at this point.  But we're moving 

14           towards that.  It's not going to be a 

15           budgetary increase.

16                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  No, no, no, I 

17           recognize that.  It looks like a 

18           legislative -- you also -- ombudsperson 

19           needed.  There is legislation afoot for 

20           that --

21                  MS. PLATKIN:  Yes.  Yes.

22                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  -- that perhaps 

23           you can help support.

24                  MS. PLATKIN:  Oh, yes, absolutely.  


                                                                   352

 1           Yes.

 2                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Great.  Thank 

 3           you.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  To the Senate.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 6                  I don't think that we have any Senate 

 7           hands up.  Do you have any others, Helene?

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  No.  No.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  All right, then 

10           I'm going to thank this panel very much for 

11           your very effective advocacy, day in, day 

12           out, on behalf of so many people.  So thank 

13           you for being here with us today.

14                  And now we are going to jump to 

15           Panel F:  The Arc New York, Erik Geizer; 

16           New York Alliance for Inclusion & Innovation, 

17           Michael Seereiter; InterAgency Council, 

18           Winifred Schiff; YAI, George Contos; and the 

19           Association for Community Living, 

20           Sebrina Barrett.

21                  And we'll start with Erik from 

22           The Arc.

23                  MR. GEIZER:  Thank you, Senator.

24                  I'd like to take the opportunity to 


                                                                   353

 1           thank the esteemed members of the Senate and 

 2           the Assembly for the opportunity today to 

 3           provide feedback on the Executive Budget and 

 4           the impact on our field and the people we 

 5           support.

 6                  My name is Erik Geizer.  I'm the CEO 

 7           of The Arc New York.  Our organization is a 

 8           family-led organization that advocates and 

 9           delivers essential supports and services, and 

10           our mission is to provide people with 

11           intellectual, developmental and other 

12           disabilities with the ordinary and 

13           extraordinary opportunities of life.

14                  We are the state's largest voluntary 

15           I/DD provider.  We support more than 60,000 

16           individuals, and we employ more than 30,000 

17           people at 36 operating chapters, and we're in 

18           every county of the state.

19                  For years we've come to you advocating 

20           for investment into our system.  Inflation 

21           has risen nearly 25 percent in the past 

22           decade, yet our field has received only a 

23           1.2 percent COLA over that same period, with 

24           little other meaningful investment.  This 


                                                                   354

 1           lack of funding has resulted in wage 

 2           stagnation for our staff and the inability of 

 3           providers to maintain their basic physical 

 4           infrastructures.  

 5                  This decade-long lack of investment, 

 6           compounded by COVID-19, has driven us to a 

 7           crisis point that threatens the safety and 

 8           well-being of the vulnerable New Yorkers we 

 9           support and the future viability of the 

10           programs and services they rely on.

11                  We have sat at this very table, 

12           although virtual this year -- and we've 

13           called for change, year after year after 

14           year, while our system eroded underneath us.  

15           Today, finally, I come to you with hope, not 

16           in desperation.  

17                  The proposed budget includes a 

18           5.4 percent statutory COLA, investments in 

19           workforce bonuses, recruitment and retention 

20           initiatives, capital funding, and special 

21           education funding.  It includes promise for 

22           the people with I/DD.  Finally, our need has 

23           been heard.  Finally, our workforce and 

24           services are being recognized as an integral 


                                                                   355

 1           part of the healthcare system.  Finally, 

 2           New Yorkers with I/DD are being recognized as 

 3           worthy of the care and opportunities we 

 4           strive to provide them.

 5                  On behalf of our organization and the 

 6           entire field, we ask that you support the 

 7           Governor's proposed investments by including 

 8           them in your one-house budgets.  We ask that 

 9           you consider these investments nonnegotiable.  

10           Specifically, the 5.4 percent COLA must be 

11           included in the budget.  The workforce 

12           retention bonuses and recruitment initiatives 

13           must be included in the budget.  Capital 

14           funding and special education funding must be 

15           included in the budget.

16                  This will not mark an end to our 

17           crisis, but it will shift our course towards 

18           a solution.  We will need sustained 

19           investment into our field to make sure we 

20           never hit this point again.  Yet our basic 

21           call to you is this:  Investment is 

22           desperately needed.  Investment is finally 

23           proposed.  Support that investment and 

24           continue to use your influence into 2023 and 


                                                                   356

 1           beyond.  

 2                  Thank you.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

 4           much.

 5                  And our next speaker will be Michael 

 6           Seereiter -- I'm sorry if I'm saying it 

 7           wrong -- New York Alliance for Inclusion & 

 8           Innovation.

 9                  MR. SEEREITER:  Thank you, Senator.  

10           It's Michael Seereiter, yes, from the 

11           New York Alliance for Inclusion & Innovation.  

12           We represent providers of services to people 

13           with disabilities and the individuals and 

14           families that they support.  We are also a 

15           member of the New York Disability Advocates 

16           organization.

17                  In past years we have appeared before 

18           you pointing to the dire consequences that a 

19           decade of intentional disinvestment was 

20           having on New Yorkers with intellectual and 

21           developmental disabilities supported by 

22           OPWDD.  This year we have a remarkable turn 

23           of events -- an Executive Budget more 

24           positive than any we have seen in recent 


                                                                   357

 1           memory.  And what's the difference here?  We 

 2           have a new administration, in stark contrast 

 3           to the previous one, that is making 

 4           New Yorkers with intellectual and 

 5           developmental disabilities a priority.

 6                  Overall, we are very pleased with the 

 7           Executive Budget proposal this year.  But it 

 8           is not one year of prioritization and 

 9           investment that will undo a decade's worth of 

10           neglect.  Rather, we need sustained 

11           prioritization and sustained investments.  

12           This year's budget makes major strides 

13           towards stabilizing our system, while also 

14           beginning to work towards changes and 

15           investments necessary to sustain our system 

16           for the long term, and make it something that 

17           New York State can once again be proud of.

18                  So let's talk about stabilization, 

19           workforce.  We support the one-time direct 

20           support professional bonuses in the 

21           Governor's budget.  But if there are going to 

22           be any conversations about sustained wage 

23           increases for frontline workers, we need to 

24           be at the table.  


                                                                   358

 1                  Secondly on workforce, we suggest an 

 2           add to the one-house budgets for a tax credit 

 3           for direct support professionals like that 

 4           which is proposed by Senator Mannion.

 5                  Third, we would recommend including 

 6           resources to expand the pilot BOCES and the 

 7           pilot community college direct support 

 8           professional recruitment programs currently 

 9           underway.  We recommend including resources 

10           to build a direct support professional 

11           credential and a career ladder, like those 

12           that are supported by Assemblymembers 

13           Abinanti, Gunther, and Senator Brouk.  

14                  And lastly on workforce, we would 

15           recommend expanding the eligibility for the 

16           Nurses Across New York loan forgiveness 

17           program, to include I/DD service providers.

18                  Secondly, we support the COLA, the 

19           5.4 percent COLA, as it would better support 

20           the infrastructure that serves as a 

21           foundation on which direct support 

22           professionals can be employed and can support 

23           people with disabilities.  Importantly, 

24           though, we need both.  We need both the 


                                                                   359

 1           workforce investments and the COLA in order 

 2           to keep up with our rapidly changing 

 3           environment, while catching up for years of 

 4           disinvestment.

 5                  Let me give you an analogy in an 

 6           article from Auto Racing:  "We can pay the 

 7           driver all we want, but if we don't keep the 

 8           brakes in good working order, put gas and new 

 9           tires on the car, and have a pit crew that 

10           can do all that work to support the driver, 

11           the results can be catastrophic."

12                  Lastly, we would recommend support for 

13           the Nonprofit Infrastructure Capital 

14           Investment Program and encourage the 

15           Legislature to amend the Statewide Healthcare 

16           Facilities Transformation Program to include 

17           nonprofit I/DD providers under OPWDD.

18                  And on looking forward to the long 

19           term, we recommend supporting the $13 million 

20           for housing subsidies in the OPWDD's ISS and 

21           Self-Direction programs, like was mentioned 

22           before; adding resources for a specialized 

23           I/DD ombudsperson; and adopting a resolution 

24           acknowledging the importance of using 


                                                                   360

 1           assistive and enabling technology to support 

 2           people with disabilities.

 3                  Thank you.

 4                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 5                  Next is Winifred Schiff, from the 

 6           InterAgency Council.

 7                  MS. SCHIFF:  Thank you, Chair Krueger.  

 8           And thank you to all the chairs and committee 

 9           members.  

10                  I am Winifred Schiff, from the 

11           InterAgency Council of Developmental 

12           Disabilities Agencies.  We represent about 

13           150 not-for-profit providers of services in 

14           the metropolitan area, and our members 

15           provide services through the life span of 

16           people with developmental disabilities.

17                  We are grateful to your continual 

18           support of our programs and services and 

19           people, and this year we're grateful to the 

20           Governor and our new Commissioner, also, who 

21           have given us hope for the future. 

22                  I will echo the words of my 

23           colleagues, and I can't say it any better 

24           than Michael.  His race car driver analogy is 


                                                                   361

 1           really perfect.  After a decade of neglect, 

 2           we're so grateful for the 5.4 percent COLA, 

 3           which will help us to do a number of things, 

 4           including raise DSP salaries, but it's 

 5           employee health benefits, it's increasing 

 6           wages for other frontline workers, and 

 7           numerous other expenditures that help us 

 8           provide quality services to people and their 

 9           families.  It all needs to happen at once.

10                  As Michael mentioned also, the 

11           workforce bonuses we're greatly appreciative 

12           of, and the personal refundable tax credit 

13           and the Nurses Across New York tuition loan 

14           forgiveness programs.  But absolutely, we 

15           need a correction in salaries.  So if there's 

16           any discussion on increasing wages, DSP 

17           salaries and other frontline workers' 

18           salaries need to be part of that 

19           conversation.  

20                  I won't say too much more, although I 

21           could go on and on about employment programs.  

22           And I would like to answer Assemblyman 

23           Epstein's question.  We have lots of work to 

24           do in residential and technology.  We look 


                                                                   362

 1           forward to participating in the 507 planning 

 2           process with our new commissioner.  And as I 

 3           said, we're very hopeful.

 4                  In the area of employment, before I 

 5           leave, I think things that would really 

 6           change things for people with disabilities in 

 7           employment would be to facilitate entry into 

 8           the system and movement within the system.  

 9           So right now there are so many barriers to 

10           becoming eligible and then moving from one 

11           funding stream to another, and even from 

12           service to service within the same state 

13           agency.  Also working with kids during their 

14           last three years of high school would really 

15           assist in helping them to transition into 

16           adult services and employment.

17                  And then of course extra funding for 

18           wages -- you know, DSPs absolutely deserve 

19           additional salary enhancements, but the 

20           employment staff have to have additional 

21           expertise.  It's a very nuanced and 

22           interesting but not so easy position, and 

23           those staff really also deserve more money.

24                  And then we love the idea of the pilot 


                                                                   363

 1           programs that OPWDD is suggesting too.

 2                  Thank you.  

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Our next up is 

 4           George Contos, from YAI.

 5                  You're silent -- oh, there you go.

 6                  MR. CONTOS:  Okay.  Hello.  Thank you, 

 7           and thank you for this opportunity.

 8                  I'm the CEO of YAI, and since 1957 YAI 

 9           has been providing innovative services to the 

10           intellectual and developmental disability, 

11           I/DD, community.  Today I'm testifying on 

12           behalf of YAI's more than 4,000 employees 

13           who, every year, support more than 20,000 

14           children and adults with I/DD and their 

15           families.

16                  I'm testifying to help spotlight the 

17           reality that New Yorkers working in the I/DD 

18           field need your help.  YAI, like every other 

19           I/DD agency, is experiencing a workforce 

20           crisis.  Our program staff are struggling.  

21           According to a 2021 survey by the New York 

22           Disability Advocates, 25 percent of I/DD 

23           provider positions are vacant.  More than 

24           90 percent of agencies are showing a decrease 


                                                                   364

 1           in job applicants, and nearly 40 percent seem 

 2           unable to open programs due to staff 

 3           shortages.  

 4                  More than 70 percent of senior staff 

 5           report covering multiple shifts a day, 

 6           working overtime, to ensure that the people 

 7           we support are receiving quality care.  But 

 8           the reality is that by virtue of residing in 

 9           one of the highest cost-of-living states in 

10           the country, many of our staff need the 

11           overtime hours to pay their bills.

12                  In what seems like a lifetime ago, 

13           working as a DSP meant earning above minimum 

14           wage and feeling respected by a government 

15           that acknowledged their challenging work.  

16           Fortunately, with New York's new 

17           administration and a united legislature, 

18           opportunity and ability exist to right the 

19           wrongs of the last decade.  The 5.4 percent 

20           COLA increase for the I/DD sector and 

21           additional incentive payments for frontline 

22           staff included in the Governor's budget are 

23           greatly appreciated, but a true game-changer 

24           for the I/DD field and workforce would ensue 


                                                                   365

 1           by realizing the wage increase in the 

 2           proposed Fair Pay for Home Care legislation 

 3           supporting salaries for home care aides at 

 4           150 percent of minimum wage.

 5                  I urge the Legislature to move forward 

 6           in securing the Fair Pay for Home Care 

 7           language in the final budget and ensuring 

 8           that it applies to the OPWDD-funded 

 9           workforce.  With overwhelming support in both 

10           chambers, in concert with a state budget 

11           containing higher-than-expected revenue, a 

12           Fair Pay for Home Care wage increase would be 

13           a catalyst in reinvigorating and 

14           revolutionizing New York's system of I/DD 

15           supports.  

16                  Our staff gave tirelessly throughout 

17           the pandemic, risking health and safety to 

18           provide best-in-class services to the 

19           children and adults we support.  The time has 

20           come for the great State of New York to 

21           recognize their efforts by providing them 

22           with base compensation that's competitive and 

23           commensurate with the constant challenges 

24           that a frontline healthcare worker faces.


                                                                   366

 1                  Thank you.  

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 3                  And our last panelist, Sebrina 

 4           Barrett, Association for Community Living.

 5                  MS. BARRETT:  Thank you for this 

 6           opportunity.

 7                  On this Valentine's Day, let me say 

 8           that we love the proposed Executive Budget.  

 9           Specifically, we support the two-year 

10           commitment of 104 million for community-based 

11           mental health housing, the 5.4 percent COLA 

12           for human services, the funding to support 

13           988, and the property pass-through for 

14           supported housing.

15                  Many of my colleagues who have been in 

16           the field for decades characterize these new 

17           dollars as unprecedented, and they are.  But 

18           I prefer the term "game changer" because if 

19           these funds become reality, housing providers 

20           may, for the first time in decades, be able 

21           to move from feeling helpless to hopeful, 

22           from anticipating crises to embracing 

23           certainty, from struggling to survive to 

24           seeing programs thrive.  


                                                                   367

 1                  And for our weary frontline staff and 

 2           our resilient residents, these funds say that 

 3           they are seen after decades of underfunding.  

 4           It says they matter, recovery matters, mental 

 5           health matters.  And so we thank 

 6           Governor Hochul, and we urge that these 

 7           allocations be fully funded.  

 8                  For years we've advocated for 

 9           modernization of the mental health housing 

10           models, some of which were created nearly 

11           40 years ago.  In short, costs have risen, 

12           clients need a higher level of care due to 

13           multiple co-occurring mental and medical 

14           conditions, and we can no longer pay staff a 

15           living wage.  

16                  First let's look at costs.  Since the 

17           '80s, health insurance has risen more than 

18           740 percent.  It costs about $50 today to buy 

19           the same amount of groceries that $20 bought 

20           in the '80s.  Rent has skyrocketed, not to 

21           mention new costs related to technologies, 

22           charity, privacy and, with the pandemic, PPE, 

23           tests and cleaning supplies. 

24                  Second, today's residents require 12 


                                                                   368

 1           to 15 medications daily, up from one or two 

 2           in the '80s.  And they face multiple 

 3           co-occurring medical conditions.  We surveyed 

 4           our members about residents who are aging in 

 5           place.  More than 40 percent of our residents 

 6           are age 55 and over, and they are 

 7           experiencing a total of 166 different medical 

 8           conditions.  Highest reported include 

 9           hypertension, diabetes, COPD, heart disease, 

10           arthritis, cancer and dementia.

11                  For these individuals, transition into 

12           a nursing home isn't a possibility.  Nursing 

13           homes won't take people with severe mental 

14           illness.  And even if they were to, they 

15           don't have the ability to care for their 

16           needs.

17                  However, more than 75 percent of the 

18           housing providers who responded to our survey 

19           said that they also are not equipped to 

20           assist their residents with their aging 

21           medical concerns.  They need nursing staff, 

22           on-site health aides, ADA-compliant space, 

23           additional staff and better pay.

24                  Finally, our members have reported a 


                                                                   369

 1           near 25 percent average statewide vacancy 

 2           rate, with some having as much as 50 to 

 3           60 percent.  Since the '80s, the work has 

 4           gotten more challenging, but the pay has 

 5           diminished.  Many of our direct care staff 

 6           make just minimum wage.  They can't afford 

 7           rent, food and childcare.  And for the past 

 8           two years, they have put their lives at risk 

 9           to care for others.

10                  Our members are seeing fewer qualified 

11           applicants, a sharp increase in interview 

12           no-shows, and senior-level staff are filling 

13           direct care shifts just to keep the doors 

14           open.  This is unsustainable, and the funding 

15           in this proposed budget is crucial to the 

16           ability for these programs to survive.

17                  Thank you.

18                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you very 

19           much.  Appreciate it.

20                  I see Assembly hands; I'm just 

21           double-checking for -- oh, I see Senator Mike 

22           Martucci.  

23                  Hello, Mike.  I'm going to give you 

24           the microphone first.


                                                                   370

 1                  SENATOR MARTUCCI:  Thank you, 

 2           Chairwoman.  I appreciate it.  

 3                  Great to see everyone here.  The first 

 4           thing I will start off by saying is your 

 5           voices are being heard loud and clear here.  

 6           You are certainly some of the strongest 

 7           advocates we always have in the budget 

 8           process.

 9                  My question -- so you know that -- all 

10           of you that have been in contact with me know 

11           that I'm all in for the OPWDD-funded 

12           workforce being included with Fair Pay, 

13           because at the end of the day that's really 

14           what we need as a big part of the solution.

15                  But my question is for Mike Seereiter.  

16           Michael, could you talk a little bit about 

17           the needs as you see them in that capital 

18           assistance program, sort of like where they 

19           are, broadly?  Because that's sort of an area 

20           of interest that I want to give you another 

21           minute or two to talk about, because I think 

22           it's important.

23                  MR. SEEREITER:  I can do a little of 

24           this, but providers can do this even better, 


                                                                   371

 1           and I'll ask George if he wants to jump in.  

 2                  But, I mean, I'm thinking about all 

 3           the -- any of the things that go into the 

 4           general operating functions of these 

 5           organizations, whether it's putting a new 

 6           parking lot in, whether it's the new roof, 

 7           the investments in IT, the investments in 

 8           telehealth, the investments in any of the 

 9           things that are like the new modern era.  We 

10           need to keep these organizations and the 

11           services that they provide up with the modern 

12           era if people with I/DD and others are going 

13           to be participatory in that economy, in that 

14           service delivery mix, if you will.

15                  So it's everything across the board.  

16           And organizations like YAI and others are 

17           gigantic organizations that can use those in 

18           a multitude of ways to support people from 

19           the things that Winnie was just talking 

20           about, from employment -- and using that 

21           technology to support people in maybe remote 

22           ways, when it comes to supporting people -- 

23           helping people pursue their employment goals, 

24           but also in that clinical space, in that 


                                                                   372

 1           really heavily involved, supporting 

 2           individuals with complex needs, et cetera.

 3                  These are -- it could be anything and 

 4           everything in there.  And here's an example 

 5           of a place where that investment can also go 

 6           an awfully long way for the entire sector.

 7                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Okay.  Thank you.  

 8                  SENATOR MARTUCCI:  Yeah, thank you, 

 9           Chairwoman.  And yeah, thank you, Michael.  I 

10           just -- that's certainly what I suspected, 

11           and I think it is important that we make 

12           significant strides in that respect.  

13                  So I'll yield you back a minute.  

14           thank you, Chairwoman.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you, Mike.

16                  All right, Assemblywoman?

17                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes, we have 

18           several Assemblymembers.  We'll start first 

19           with Assemblyman Ed Ra.

20                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Thank you, Chair.  

21           Thank you, everybody on the panel for -- 

22           Winnie and some of the others, I just wanted 

23           to see if you can elaborate on -- you know, I 

24           think it's been a theme of the hearing today, 


                                                                   373

 1           both amongst legislators and advocates, that 

 2           this is kind of a refreshing change to be 

 3           talking about this budget in the context of 

 4           making investments in this workforce, which 

 5           is a great thing -- but the need that that 

 6           continues in years to come.

 7                  So, you know, the COLA, the ARPA funds 

 8           that are being used for bonuses and retention 

 9           and all of that, all great.  But what do we 

10           need to get to in the 2024 fiscal year, 2025, 

11           2026, to actually get this workforce to 

12           appropriate wages and ultimately be able to 

13           retain and recruit new people to work with 

14           this population?

15                  MS. SCHIFF:  So just like lack of a 

16           COLA for over a decade forced us to allow our 

17           salaries to stagnate, we need continual COLAs 

18           every year to help us continue to face the 

19           increasing costs, continue to raise wages.  

20           You know, it can be an incremental thing.

21                  On the other hand, like I said, we 

22           really do need a correction for that time 

23           period of neglect.  And it's because the ARPA 

24           funds are wonderful for staff who currently 


                                                                   374

 1           work for us, but it's not going to help us to 

 2           recruit new people.  So the $3,000 bonuses, 

 3           that's something.  But we need to absolutely 

 4           raise higher in-rates for the DSPs and other 

 5           frontline workers in order for us to be able 

 6           to solve our staffing emergency.

 7                  MR. SEEREITER:  Senator, I'd offer 

 8           here that I think the prioritization point 

 9           from before applies here.  It's not one year 

10           of fixes, it's going to be multiple years of 

11           fixes.  

12                  And as an environment changes, and as 

13           that environment -- I mean, look at 

14           inflation.  I mean, if inflation continues to 

15           do what it's doing now, we're going to need 

16           to have a very different conversation in a 

17           year or two.  It's not like just picking a 

18           number and sticking with it, it's more of 

19           making sure that this remains -- these issues 

20           remain top-of-mind as we are talking about 

21           the budget for New York State and making sure 

22           that the services and supports for people 

23           with I/DD are there for years to come.

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN RA:  Great.  I just -- you 


                                                                   375

 1           know, thank you to all of you for your 

 2           persistence.  And you know you have partners 

 3           in the Legislature who are going to keep this 

 4           at the forefront.  And it's great to be 

 5           having this hearing, like I said earlier, you 

 6           know, with some optimism that we're finally 

 7           moving forward.

 8                  So thank you.

 9                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

10                  I think it's still yours, Assembly.

11                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes, so we go 

12           first to Assemblyman Epstein.

13                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you, Chair 

14           Weinstein.

15                  And Winnie, I'll try this time again, 

16           okay?  So maybe we can talk about more of 

17           what we need to be doing for employment 

18           opportunities for people with disabilities to 

19           create better pathways for all levels of 

20           employment.  And I know we don't have a lot 

21           of time, so ...

22                  MS. SCHIFF:  I mean, I think the first 

23           place to look is getting people into the 

24           system and helping providers to get them into 


                                                                   376

 1           jobs.  So there's so many kind of structural 

 2           barriers to eligibility and moving people 

 3           from one funding source to another, if it's a 

 4           different state agency, like SED, ACCES-VR, 

 5           and OPWDD.  

 6                  And just moving from a service like 

 7           day habilitation to employment.  And I think 

 8           what we're working on those things, like 

 9           within OPWDD, but we really need a 

10           cross-systems facilitation of getting people 

11           eligible and moving them from one place to 

12           another.

13                  And then, for sure, it's helping 

14           students in their last three years of high 

15           school prepare for employment by getting them 

16           engaged with providers of adult services and 

17           employment services particularly.

18                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  And just so I 

19           can just go on.  So are there enough 

20           resources?  I know we're hearing a lot about 

21           resources and we're doing better this year 

22           than we've seen.  But are there really 

23           targeted resources that we could be doing 

24           here?


                                                                   377

 1                  MS. SCHIFF:  So the other thing that I 

 2           was mentioning before is that while DSPs need 

 3           salary increases, employment staff have a 

 4           more specialized, nuanced job that really 

 5           requires additional skills.  They have to 

 6           have excellent communication skills, and 

 7           they're really doing a lot of fine analysis 

 8           and teaching and just facilitating the whole 

 9           process.  Not to mention the whole consumer 

10           service.  We're relying on the business 

11           community to hire the qualified employees 

12           with disabilities.  So those staff salaries 

13           should even be higher.

14                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Okay.  So 

15           centralized process system, that would be 

16           really helpful.  Additional resources to help 

17           get people in high school into these job 

18           training programs or readiness programs.  

19           additional money for resources as they go 

20           through college and beyond.

21                  Is there anything else missing from 

22           that piece of the puzzle that we are -- that 

23           you see that we don't see?

24                  MS. SCHIFF:  Well, I mean, I think 


                                                                   378

 1           pilot programs, especially those that are 

 2           tailored to the expertise of particular 

 3           providers.  Because we've got tons of 

 4           experience, many of us have been placing 

 5           people in jobs for 35 and 40 years, and we 

 6           have ideas about how to do things differently 

 7           and better.  And I think that the pilot 

 8           programs is a great way to do something 

 9           that's replicatable.

10                  ASSEMBLYMAN EPSTEIN:  Thank you.

11                  And I know I'm almost out of time, so 

12           thank you, Chair.  And thank you for 

13           answering those questions.

14                  MS. SCHIFF:  Thank you.

15                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

16                  We go to Assemblyman Burdick.

17                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thanks very 

18           much.  And thanks to all of the panelists.  

19           You are doing heroes' work in continuing to 

20           advocate, and I think the timing is exquisite 

21           of a real opportunity that we have with the 

22           new administration.  So please, keep that up. 

23                  I just have a couple of questions 

24           here.  One's a quick one, for Michael 


                                                                   379

 1           Seereiter, and maybe you can just email it to 

 2           me:  Just the Assembly bill number that's the 

 3           companion to John Mannion's bill on tax 

 4           incentives --

 5                  MR. SEEREITER:  I do not believe 

 6           there's an Assembly same-as.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Okay, well, 

 8           contact me.  Maybe -- I work with John all 

 9           the time.  Maybe -- maybe I'll carry it.

10                  MR. SEEREITER:  Thank you.

11                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  To Winifred 

12           Schiff, you mentioned the need to work in the 

13           last three years of school.  

14                  Do you think that it would be helpful 

15           to expand the transitional services of 

16           ACCES-VR working with school districts to 

17           help in that regard?

18                  MS. SCHIFF:  Absolutely.  And what I 

19           didn't say is that providers can work with 

20           students in their last three years, but they 

21           can't get paid for providing those services 

22           during the school day, and that's what makes 

23           it hard.

24                  So if we could, through ACCES-VR, 


                                                                   380

 1           solve that problem, it would go a long way to 

 2           getting more students -- they would graduate 

 3           with jobs.  And then all we would have to do 

 4           is support them in those jobs.  Because they 

 5           can get all kinds of great experience while 

 6           they're in school and get jobs.

 7                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Great.

 8                  And George Contos, just a quick 

 9           question for you.  You -- if I understood you 

10           correctly, you're a little concerned about 

11           the language in the Fair Pay for Home Care 

12           bill, which I'm cosponsoring.  Do you feel 

13           that we need to clarify that, to expand it?

14                  MR. CONTOS:  Well, not being an 

15           expert -- you know, so I'll start with that.  

16           But I believe, from what I've been told and 

17           from the conversations I've had, there's a 

18           little bit of a lack of clear definition as 

19           to whether or not the OPWDD frontline staff 

20           would fall --

21                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Would be 

22           covered?

23                  MR. CONTOS:  Yes.  And -- and --

24                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Okay, so that -- 


                                                                   381

 1           I'm sorry, I only have a minute or two.

 2                  Here's what I might suggest on that.  

 3           If you'd please work with others that are 

 4           looking at this and let us know.  Because 

 5           those that are in this, members of the Senate 

 6           and the Assembly, I know would be very 

 7           interested in looking at this to see if 

 8           something needs to be modified. 

 9                  And whatever you find, if you could 

10           provide it to the chairs, Chair Krueger and 

11           Chair Weinstein, then they would be providing 

12           it to other members of the Legislature.  That 

13           would be very helpful.

14                  MR. CONTOS:  Of course.

15                  ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK:  Thank you so 

16           much.  And thank you again, all of you, for 

17           your advocacy.

18                  MR. SEEREITER:  Assemblyman Burdick, I 

19           need to correct the record.  It was Assembly 

20           9200, I believe is the Assembly same-as for 

21           the tax credit bill.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you.

23                  And thank you, Chris Burdick, for 

24           being trained so well to make sure everybody 


                                                                   382

 1           knows to get the copies to Helene and I as 

 2           well.  Thank you.

 3                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  We have no 

 4           other questioners.

 5                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I guess I have 

 6           just one question for this panel.  

 7                  So there's been discussion at various 

 8           times about sending younger people out of 

 9           state when we don't have the right services 

10           and programs here.  Do you think we're making 

11           any progress in getting the right match for 

12           our own citizens so that we don't have to 

13           keep sending people so far away from their 

14           families?  Are there models, pilots, anything 

15           out there that are working?

16                  MS. SCHIFF:  You first, Michael?

17                  MR. SEEREITER:  No, go ahead.

18                  MS. SCHIFF:  I was just going to say 

19           that the tuition that the out-of-state 

20           schools charge is way higher than what 

21           New York State pays for our residential 

22           school placements.

23                  If we raise the rate a little bit, 

24           then we could provide the intensive services 


                                                                   383

 1           that some of these students need, and keep 

 2           them in-state.  

 3                  So as it stands, there aren't enough 

 4           opportunities and there sometimes isn't 

 5           enough support for certain people who have 

 6           really high needs.

 7                  MR. SEEREITER:  I would echo that 

 8           similarly, Senator.  I think we have made 

 9           little progress on that front, but I think we 

10           have some of the tools that we need to be 

11           able to make some progress, including things 

12           like moving toward an acuity-based rate 

13           structure for services in the OPWDD sector 

14           that would adequately and appropriately 

15           reflect the needs of individuals with complex 

16           needs. 

17                  There are many provider organizations 

18           that I think are more than willing to stand 

19           up and support individuals with more complex 

20           needs, but they need adequate reimbursement 

21           to be able to do so safely and appropriately.  

22           I think if we can start to move some of those 

23           administrative pieces of this puzzle around, 

24           we can probably start to make some progress 


                                                                   384

 1           on that front.

 2                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  And you're 

 3           reinforcing something I believed I knew, that 

 4           we are prepared to pay much more when we send 

 5           them out of state.  So that while we always 

 6           claim it's a monetary issue, we could 

 7           actually conceivably save money and keep 

 8           people closer to their families and their 

 9           homes.  

10                  And of course one of the issues with 

11           out-of-state placements is we have no 

12           regulatory authority over what's really 

13           happening once they go there.  They're no 

14           longer in New York State and might not even 

15           let us come and visit.

16                  So you are confirming my concern and 

17           that there is an answer.

18                  MS. SCHIFF:  And we get no federal 

19           Medicaid match either.

20                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Ah, thank you.

21                  MR. GEIZER:  So, Senator, I would 

22           agree.  And by -- you know, whether or not we 

23           would save money by keeping individuals who 

24           are complex here in New York -- I think we 


                                                                   385

 1           would save money.  But even if we didn't, we 

 2           would be investing into New York State 

 3           providers and supporting them to continue to 

 4           build up programs that can support more 

 5           complex individuals.

 6                  So it's -- from my perspective, it's a 

 7           win/win.

 8                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Thank you all for 

 9           that.  Thank you all for your work.

10                  If there are no other -- oh, I see 

11           Aileen Gunther has her hand up, Helene.

12                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Yes, she does.

13                  ASSEMBLYWOMAN GUNTHER:  You know, as I 

14           listen to the conversation -- I talked to a 

15           gentleman that runs a center for people with 

16           disabilities, and I think that one of the 

17           major investments they have to make in 

18           New York State is building facilities so 

19           that -- right now many of the facilities have 

20           bed blockers.  They can't move their adult -- 

21           their adult folks into a permanent residence 

22           because there are no residences available. 

23                  And what's happening now is we're 

24           sending them out of state, spending boatloads 


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 1           of money, double what you'd spend in New York 

 2           State, rather than making the assessment now 

 3           in New York State.  It's a very big problem.  

 4           It's been going on, Winnie, for 10 years 

 5           right now.  Nobody's listening.  Nobody's 

 6           counting their pennies.  

 7                  And, you know, it's a much more 

 8           efficient way to do business.  Plus there's a 

 9           relationship with the family that loves you. 

10           So this is just -- it's kind of a travesty 

11           what's happening right now.  And, you know, 

12           we've called -- I mean, I've talked to people 

13           till I'm blue in the face.  We -- me and Mike 

14           Martucci, we represent the Center for 

15           Discovery.  They have a ton of older, elder 

16           people.  They're -- you know, you have a 

17           24-year-old with a 7-year-old child.  It's an 

18           inappropriate placement.  But because of the 

19           blood -- bred -- bed blockers -- it's like 

20           a -- it's a twist to my language -- there's 

21           nothing to do.

22                  So I think that in the future one of 

23           the goals we should have is building those 

24           facilities for people that have come into 


                                                                   387

 1           adulthood that belong in a different space 

 2           than with a bunch of young children.  And I 

 3           think it's the most important thing we can do 

 4           for people with disabilities, and we need to 

 5           do it right away.  And we've been talking 

 6           about it for a while, Winnie.  You know.  

 7           It's really -- and it's so stupid.  We're 

 8           spending so much money.  It's the dumbest 

 9           thing I've ever seen in my life.  

10                  It's like you've got to put the 

11           initial investment in, and then we're going 

12           to be clear sailing -- or better sailing.  

13           That's all.

14                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  Well, I think 

15           that's a very good place for us to end this 

16           hearing, Aileen Gunther.  Unless Helene has 

17           another hand up somewhere that I missed --

18                  CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  No, we do not.  

19                  I just want to thank this panel as 

20           well as all the other witnesses who were with 

21           us -- and the commissioners -- today.

22                  CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER:  I want to join 

23           you in thanking all the panelists from the 

24           final panel and all the rest of the panels 


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 1           today.  You know, it's a lot of meat when you 

 2           put all these issues together in one hearing.  

 3           Although I do think they go together.

 4                  So I want to thank you all.  I want to 

 5           close down this hearing and tell everyone not 

 6           to worry, you can come back 9:30 tomorrow 

 7           morning for the Transportation hearing.  And 

 8           then Wednesday we'll have our final two 

 9           hearings of this season's budget -- I don't 

10           know, is it like a -- it's not a rush, but 

11           what do you call it?  It's a 26-mile run, the 

12           budget hearings.  So we will complete then 

13           sometime Wednesday evening.

14                  With that, thank you very much, 

15           everyone, for your participation.  Thanks, 

16           staff of the Senate and Assembly, for making 

17           sure this all works every day.  And we'll see 

18           you all tomorrow.  Bye.

19                  (Whereupon, the budget hearing 

20           concluded at 5:14 p.m.)

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