Public Hearing - May 9, 2012

    


       1      BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE
              STANDING COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE
       2      --------------------------------------------------

       3                         PUBLIC HEARING

       4                  CRUELTY TO COMPANION ANIMALS

       5
              -----------------------------------------------------
       6
                               Utica State Office Building
       7                       207 Genesee Street - 1st Floor
                               Utica, New York 13501
       8
                               May 9, 2012
       9                       2:30 p.m. to - 5:30 p.m.

      10
              PRESIDING:
      11
                 Senator Patricia A. Ritchie
      12         Chair

      13

      14      SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT:

      15         Senator Joseph A. Griffo

      16         Senator David J. Valesky

      17

      18      ALSO IN ATTENDANCE:

      19         Todd Kusnierz
                 Director
      20         Standing Committee on Agriculture

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25







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       1      SPEAKERS:                               PAGE QUESTIONS

       2      Jed Painter                               11     19
              ADA, Animal Crimes Unit
       3      Nassau County DA's Office

       4      Scott D. McNamara                         34     42
              District Attorney
       5      Oneida County DA's Office

       6      Mark Williams                             43     47
              Chief of Police
       7      Utica, New York

       8      Bill Ketzer                               54     69
              Senior State Legislative Director
       9      Northeastern Region of ASPCA

      10

      11                            ---oOo---

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25







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       1             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Welcome.  Good afternoon,

       2      everyone.

       3             I would like to open the public hearing of

       4      the New York State Agriculture Committee on the

       5      issue of cruelty to companion animals, by thanking

       6      everyone for joining us today.

       7             And I'm joined by my colleague on the

       8      Agriculture Committee, Senator Valesky;

       9             And, also, Senator Griffo, whose home

      10      district this is.  And I would like to thank

      11      Senator Griffo for inviting me today to deal with

      12      this important issue.

      13             Due to time constraints, today's testimony is

      14      by invitation only.  But, I would like to tell

      15      anyone in the audience, if you're interested in

      16      submitting comments, suggestions, please feel free

      17      to submit your written testimony to my office,

      18      either in Watertown or in Albany.  And we certainly

      19      would appreciate it, and we'll check each submitted

      20      testimony in, and we will respond, and let you know

      21      the progress we're making.

      22             So, thank you for coming today.

      23             Today we will hear testimony from law

      24      enforcement and from the American Society of -- for

      25      the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, "ASPCA," and







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       1      what New York can do to strengthen the laws, and to

       2      help law enforcement combat the issues of cruelty to

       3      animals.

       4             I know many of you in the audience here, this

       5      is an issue, when it comes up, that it is near and

       6      dear to your heart.  Something that is very

       7      emotional.  So, I appreciate each and every one of

       8      you for taking the time out of your schedule today

       9      to come down and listen to the testimony.

      10             Many of the animal-cruelty bills, they

      11      actually end up in the Agricultural Committee, and

      12      from that Committee, many are forwarded on to the

      13      Codes Committee.

      14             So, it's important that each bill that comes

      15      in, we have the opportunity to discuss them, and to

      16      forward them on to the Committee for the Committee's

      17      feedback.

      18             Because it deals with the Ag and Markets Law,

      19      we did invite the Commissioner, and his staff was

      20      unavailable today.

      21             This year we have had a number of bills, just

      22      recently over the last two weeks, who have been --

      23      that have been forwarded through the Committee.

      24             I have with me my Committee director from

      25      Albany, Todd Kusnierz, and he is just going to read,







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       1      briefly, the four bills that we have recently

       2      passed, and some of the details to go along with

       3      that.

       4             TODD KUSNIERZ:  Thank you very much, Senator.

       5             The first bill that we reported out of the

       6      Agriculture Committee this year was a measure

       7      sponsored by Senator Ritchie, Senate Bill 6774.

       8      It's also carried in the State Assembly by

       9      Assembly Member John McEneny.

      10             And this is -- measure essentially specifies

      11      that any person who intentionally owns --

      12                  (no audio)

      13             -- sells --

      14                  (no audio)

      15             -- manufactures animal --

      16                  (no audio)

      17             -- with the intent to otherwise promote or

      18      facilitate animal fighting is guilty of a Class B

      19      misdemeanor, which the fines are also increased with

      20      this piece of legislation.

      21             And just last week, in the

      22      Senate Ag Committee, there are four other bills that

      23      were reported out.  And I'll just briefly touch on

      24      those.

      25             The first one is Senate Bill 5083, sponsored







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       1      by Senator Ball.  It's being carried in the Assembly

       2      by Assembly Member Tedisco.

       3             And this measure specifies that a person is

       4      guilty of aggravated cruelty to animals when, in the

       5      course of the commission of a felony, or in the

       6      immediate flight therefrom, such person causes

       7      physical injury or death to a companion animal.

       8             Also, another measure sponsored by

       9      Senator Ball, which was reported out of Committee,

      10      is Senate Bill 5084, also carried by

      11      Assembly Member Tedisco in the Assembly.

      12             And this measure is supported by

      13      New York State Bar Association.

      14             This measure prohibits a person convicted of

      15      aggravated cruelty to animals from owning or

      16      possessing a companion animal, unless authorized by

      17      a Court order after an appropriate psychiatric or

      18      psychological testing which indicates that there's

      19      clear and convincing evidence that the person is

      20      capable and has sound mental capacity and ability to

      21      own and properly care for that animal in a humane

      22      manner.

      23             Another measure that was reported out of

      24      Committee last week, Senate Bill 5702-A, by

      25      Senator Klein, that's being carried in the Assembly







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       1      by Assembly Member Paulin.

       2             This measure prohibits the use of cage or box

       3      dryer at a companion-animal grooming facility, which

       4      contains a heating element, with the heating element

       5      turned on for the purpose of drying or aiding in the

       6      drying of a companion animal.

       7             And the final bill, which I believe the

       8      Nassau District Attorney's Office may touch on this

       9      afternoon, is Senate Bill 6730, which is sponsored

      10      by Senator Fuschillo.  It's being carried in the

      11      Assembly by Assembly Member Rosenthal.

      12             And, essentially, it's a very long bill, but

      13      it clarifies, modernizes, and restructures the

      14      animal-cruelty laws --

      15                  (no audio)

      16             -- certain sections of the Ag and Markets Law

      17      into the penal law.  And, it does a host of things:

      18      redefining terms, increasing penalties.

      19             And I think we'll let the District Attorney's

      20      Office maybe touch on that a little bit more later.

      21             It's a measure that was reported out of the

      22      Ag Committee.  New York Farm Bureau poses it in its

      23      current form, but we have been working with the

      24      sponsor on that measure.  And the sponsor is working

      25      to address many of the concerns that Farm Bureau has







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       1      on that.

       2             So, those are the bills for this session so

       3      far.

       4             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Thank you, Todd.

       5             One of the largest categories of animal-abuse

       6      classification is:  Neglect by an owner.

       7             And I'm actually here today by invitation

       8      from Senator Griffo, because of the horrific case

       9      that happened --

      10                  (no audio)

      11             -- Senator Griffo, I thank you for the

      12      invitation.  Appreciate the opportunity the get

      13      feedback from law enforcement so we can put in place

      14      a law on the books, to help you to do your job.

      15             Senator Valesky, did you want to make any

      16      comments before we hear testimony?

      17             SENATOR VALESKY:  Sure, just briefly.

      18             As you have all heard, the Senate Agriculture

      19      Committee, under the outstanding leadership of

      20      Senator Ritchie, has already been very active in the

      21      area of animal abuse --

      22                  (no audio)

      23             -- that we have taken in the Committee, and

      24      hopefully we'll be taking at the level of the entire

      25      Senate and the Assembly --







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       1                  (no audio)

       2             -- that you may have to come forward with, so

       3      that Senator Ritchie and I and others on the

       4      Committee can make sure that we have the toughest

       5      laws on the books in New York State that we

       6      certainly ought to have.

       7             So, Senator, thank you for being here.

       8             And, certainly, Senator Griffo, it's always

       9      great to be with you in your Senate district.

      10             Thank you.

      11             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Senator Griffo, do you want

      12      to elaborate on that tragic case, and your

      13      perspective on this important issue?

      14             Once again, thank you for bringing it to the

      15      forefront, and inviting me here today.

      16             SENATOR GRIFFO:  (No audio) --

      17      Chairwoman Senator Ritchie.

      18             I want to first thank both of my colleagues

      19      here, because I'm fortunate that I have the

      20      opportunity to serve with both of my colleagues, and

      21      share coverage with them in, both, the north country

      22      with Senator Ritchie, and here in the central

      23      Mohawk Valley Region with Senator Valesky.

      24             So, I'm very fortunate to have two colleagues

      25      that --







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       1                  (no audio)

       2             -- our respective regions.

       3             I want to also commend Senator Ritchie, as

       4      Senator Valesky did, for her exceptional leadership.

       5             And she has done an extraordinary job during

       6      her short tenure as Chair of the

       7      Agriculture Committee.

       8             We appreciate your work and efforts.

       9             And her responsiveness, too.

      10             As Senator Ritchie indicated, I was not only

      11      alarmed, but disgusted, by the acts of cruelty that

      12      we witnessed, unfortunately, in our area here.

      13             But it doesn't only take place here, it takes

      14      place across the state.

      15             So anytime -- and I approached

      16      Senator Ritchie, with support from Senator Valesky

      17      and our other colleagues, with the idea of holding a

      18      public hearing.

      19             And I want to emphasize the significance of

      20      holding a Standing Committee public hearing of the

      21      Senate.  It shows that we attach --

      22                  (no audio)

      23             -- in dealing with problems as we have

      24      witnessed, not only here in the central New York

      25      area, but across the state.







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       1             You know, I look at this, and anyone who

       2      treats a living thing with this callus disregard and

       3      downright cruelty, really disgusts me.  And it is

       4      need for us to call attention, and to put in place

       5      appropriate measures that may be necessary, in order

       6      to help law enforcement and the prosecutors do their

       7      job, and also to get the perspective from many of

       8      you who are involved in animal advocacy.

       9             So, Senator Ritchie, again, thank you for

      10      your willingness to put this hearing together so we

      11      could hear the oral testimony that we will hear

      12      today, but, also, anyone here can submit written

      13      testimony, so as we in Albany begin to deliberate,

      14      and determine the best course of action to deal with

      15      the subject matter, we will have input from the

      16      community, across the state.

      17             So, I thank you again for the opportunity to

      18      have -- to host you here today.  And, again,

      19      appreciate the significance and importance that

      20      we're placing on the subject matter by your interest

      21      in holding the hearing.

      22             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Thank you, Senator.

      23             If we could have the first two speakers come

      24      up to the table:

      25             Jed Painter, Assistant District Attorney of







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       1      the Animal Crimes Unit, Nassau County DA's Office.

       2             And thank you for making the long trip up.

       3             And, Scott McNamara, Oneida County District

       4      Attorney.

       5             And, Chief, do you want to make testimony

       6      today too?  Do you have any comments?

       7             CHIEF MARK WILLIAMS:  Yes.

       8             SENATOR RITCHIE:  I'll have you come right up

       9      then, too, please.  Thank you.

      10             And, Jed, since you had the farthest ride,

      11      we'll let you open up here.

      12             ADA JED PAINTER:  Thank you very much,

      13      everybody.

      14             Thank you very much for the invitation.

      15             It was a pleasure to drive that far to be

      16      here, and I'm really happy to be on this -- and

      17      privileged to be on this panel, to the left and

      18      right of me.

      19             My name is Jed Painter.  I am chief of the

      20      Animal Crimes Unit for the Nassau County District

      21      Attorney's Office.

      22             A little bit about Nassau County:

      23             It's population is approximately 1.4 million

      24      people.

      25             It is a metropolitan area.  Prosecutor's







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       1      Office borders Queens, and so we get a lot of

       2      overflow of dog-fighting activity.

       3             We also get a little more rural -- a little

       4      bit more rural, to the east, where we border

       5      Suffolk County.

       6             So, we do have a variety of animal crime to

       7      deal with.

       8             And like all metropolitan area district

       9      attorney's offices, or larger district attorney's

      10      offices, we're subdivided into bureaus and units:

      11      sex crimes, vehicular crimes, environmental crimes,

      12      tech crimes.

      13             And at some point along the way, that point

      14      being 2010 specifically, at the beginning of it,

      15      DA Rice decided that animal crime was a legitimate

      16      category of crime, which it absolutely is.

      17             And as law enforcement strategy, decided to

      18      dedicate a unit to it.

      19             And at the time, it did make waves, but I

      20      think -- I think it's common sense.  I think it's

      21      logical.

      22             You have an entire category of crime.  Why

      23      not, if you're subdividing into bureaus and units,

      24      have an animal crimes unit for specialized

      25      expertise.







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       1             Now the Animal Crimes Unit has:  Myself, as

       2      chief.  There's four ADAs who staff it.  There's

       3      in-house detectives who staff it.  There's support

       4      staff.

       5             There's a 24-hour hotline and Internet

       6      complaint system that's manned, and it goes right to

       7      a prosecutor.

       8             And in addition to that proactive work, we

       9      also take whatever municipal law enforcement brings

      10      us.

      11             So whether it be one of our county police

      12      officers or city police officers, or anybody within

      13      our county, we'll take and prosecute that as well.

      14             I learn a lot more from the cases that we

      15      don't make.

      16             We've had approximately 1,500 complaints in

      17      the last two years.  Made about 50 to 60 cases.

      18      About 25 percent of those felonies.

      19             But, again, it's the constant pop quizzes

      20      that come in on the hotline, answered by a

      21      prosecutor, and eventually reviewed by myself,

      22      that -- that develop the most interesting legal

      23      education.

      24             And I believe a lot of that -- again, I won't

      25      hog all the time by talking about Senate Bill 6730,







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       1      but a lot of that was -- tried to be incorporated.

       2      A lot of the issues were -- tried to be corrected in

       3      Senate Bill 6730.

       4             Apart from serving as chief of the

       5      Animal Crimes Unit, I also work in Public Corruption

       6      Bureau, where I investigate political entities and

       7      public officials for corruption.

       8             It's good to be an investigative bureau like

       9      that because I now can avail myself of an

      10      investigator grand jury at all times.

      11             So, in that, I find that helpful when it

      12      comes to investigating complex things, like

      13      dog-fighting rings, or other types of enterprise

      14      cruelty, of which there's a big problem, if one pays

      15      attention.

      16             It is interesting, though, and I will put

      17      this to the Committee right now, that as much work I

      18      could do investigating a dog-fighting ring, and

      19      possibly getting a warrant if I know a fight's in

      20      progress, and raiding the dog-fighting ring with

      21      law-enforcement members, if they find a certain

      22      amount of drugs on the table, or one gun that's

      23      loaded, all of a sudden, that's the top charge, and

      24      not the dog fighting.

      25             There's a little bit of a disparity in the







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       1      ways that the laws are currently structured, that it

       2      does make it interesting, to me -- to me, in my

       3      opinion -- that the majority of animal cruelty is --

       4      even the highest level, is an unclassified felony.

       5             Penal-law provisions make it an E felony, but

       6      with the special sentencing caps in place in the

       7      Agriculture and Markets Law, it's even a lesser

       8      E felony.

       9             And I'll give you an example.

      10             A standard E felony would be 1 1/3 to

      11      4 years.  Indeterminate sentence is a max sentence.

      12             Aggravated cruelty to animals, 353-A, is a

      13      felony, and it could be characterized as a Class E

      14      felony; however, there's a special sentencing cap,

      15      making it two-years' incarceration.

      16             So even there, it's a facade of a penalty.

      17             And, again, I think also by housing this

      18      category of crime, outside of the Agriculture and

      19      Markets Law -- as out of the penal law, in the

      20      Agriculture and Markets Law, does seem to

      21      disassociate that logical connection that this is a

      22      category of crime, just like economic crime, sex

      23      crime, or vehicular crime.

      24             That takes place in an ideological level, but

      25      also by its disassociation with the penal law, it







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       1      functions on a practical level.

       2             Matters such as fingerprinting, are not

       3      standardized.  In fact, misdemeanor dog fighting is

       4      not a printable offense.

       5             Pretty much, a lot of misdemeanors that are

       6      contained in the Agriculture and Markets Law are not

       7      printable.

       8             And now with the new legislation that's

       9      passed about DNA, none of that's taken.

      10             Standard things, like recordkeeping,

      11      reporting to the State, reporting convictions to

      12      DCJS, all of these things, just by its absence,

      13      shoulder-to-shoulder with other laws, are lacking.

      14             And, finally, besides that legal aspect,

      15      there's another practical aspect that I -- I can't

      16      speak for all police departments, but I do know,

      17      from slight experience, that it's not very common

      18      for an average patrol officer to have a copy of the

      19      Agriculture and Markets Law in their glove

      20      compartment of the patrol car.

      21             And if they find it, and, you know, it's not

      22      even common, in my experience, for a desk officer

      23      back at the precinct to have one.  And then they end

      24      up Googling it.

      25             And that's a horrible thing, if it's that







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       1      unavailable and inaccessible.

       2             If you're lucky enough to find it, it's text,

       3      which began in 1826, I believe, is still very much a

       4      nineteenth-century dialect.

       5             And after combing through a few pages of,

       6      "Am I permitted to justifiably run a horse on a

       7      plank road?" or "Sell baby chicks that have been

       8      imparted in an artificial color?" after a few combs

       9      through that, if they don't -- if the police officer

      10      can't find it fast enough to respond to the urgent

      11      situation, you might then be -- I completely

      12      understand if a warning is given rather than an

      13      arrest.  It might dissuade actual action on some

      14      less urgent, or I'll call it, more "garden variety"

      15      situations of neglect.

      16             I think that it should be the goal, that laws

      17      should be written, that an average police officer on

      18      patrol should be able to find the law, understand

      19      the law, and apply the law, all in middle of the

      20      night at a crime scene, within moments.

      21             And I believe, right now, the laws aren't

      22      written that way.

      23             So, again, my office, District Attorney Rice,

      24      and Senator Fuschillo, and Assemblywoman Rosenthal,

      25      have put forward this Senate Bill 6730-A, and 9917,







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       1      and revisions are going as we work out the kinks,

       2      but, we put forward this bill for exactly that

       3      purpose.

       4             And, so, I am happy to take questions on it.

       5             And thank you very much for hearing me out.

       6             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Thank you.

       7             You mentioned that there are

       8      1,500 complaints.

       9             Out of the complaints, how many -- do you

      10      know how many individuals were actually

      11      prosecuted --

      12             ADA JED PAINTER:  Yes, ma'am.

      13             SENATOR RITCHIE:  -- at the end?

      14             ADA JED PAINTER:  Yes.  In the past -- in

      15      2011, we had 23 successful arrests out of,

      16      approximately, 600 complaints.

      17             Keep in mind that we keep track of all of the

      18      data -- we track our database so we are able to

      19      cross-check addresses.  So, many of those complaints

      20      might have been multiple complaints against the same

      21      address.

      22             And, we allow callers to be anonymous.

      23             The virtue of that is, in situations of

      24      neglect, we encourage business, so to speak.  And we

      25      get a lot of business from ex-wives reporting







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       1      ex-husbands, nephews reporting uncles, and things

       2      happening within the household.

       3             I think, as anybody can tell you on this

       4      panel, that most of animal crime happens in a very

       5      constitutionally protected place.  It happens behind

       6      closed doors, and the victim can't call 911.

       7             And getting through that barrier is very

       8      difficult.  So, we encourage anonymous complaints.

       9             But that doesn't necessarily mean they're

      10      going to take it to next level, and testify.  But

      11      it's better that we know about it, and can

      12      cross-check it, and possibly, even, if the law

      13      allows us to intervene or check it out for

      14      ourselves, our detectives' eyes or municipal law

      15      enforcements' eyes can't take the place of the

      16      witness's eyes, as long as we're ready and dedicated

      17      to do surveillance.

      18             Or, if it's a matter of neglected animal in

      19      the backyard that's in plain view, then we just

      20      substitute ourselves for the witness.  We take them

      21      out of the equation, and we proceed that way.

      22             So there is going to be a huge gap between

      23      the amount of complaints that we get and the amount

      24      of arrests that we can make.  That's just the name

      25      of the game with the victim that can't talk.







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       1             I can't tell you how many times I have

       2      actually almost gotten to the point of craziness,

       3      where I've actually wanted to talk to the dog, and

       4      see, you know:  Who did this to you?

       5             [Laughter.]

       6             ADA JED PAINTER:  Who tied you to the stop

       7      sign?

       8             And, where did you get that scar?

       9             And, how long has this person had you?

      10             And, is this the person who did it?

      11             Because there's always deniability when the

      12      victim can't speak.

      13             And it's simple things that you take for

      14      granted.

      15             You know, I wasn't always an animal-crimes

      16      prosecutor.  I came up through the ranks like every

      17      other prosecutor, and I prosecuted assaults, and

      18      things like that.

      19             You take it for granted, that if somebody's

      20      assaulted, they can point out their accuser in

      21      court.

      22             You're never going to have that luxury with

      23      the animal crimes, so you have to fill in the gaps

      24      from around.

      25             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Do you see that as an







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       1      increase, the 1,500 complaints?

       2             Is that an increase in recent years, or --

       3             ADA JED PAINTER:  My personal belief -- and

       4      I'm not a statistician.

       5             My personal belief is, that people are just

       6      becoming more attuned to this as an issue.

       7             I can't tell if you there's been a rise in

       8      cruelty, but I can tell you there's definitely been

       9      a rise in the level of awareness.

      10             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Senator Griffo, or Valesky,

      11      do you have any questions?

      12             SENATOR GRIFFO:  I actually -- Jed, you

      13      talked about -- I'd be interested in the best

      14      approach that you would recommend.

      15             And I applaud the DA for her initiatives, and

      16      your willingness to travel to be a part of this.

      17             You said that you would like to have law

      18      enforcement find, understand, and apply.

      19             What would be the best way to do that?

      20             Would it be to equip them with, you know,

      21      something in vehicles?

      22             Or do you have an idea of how that should be

      23      accomplished?

      24             ADA JED PAINTER:  Well, two things come to

      25      mind when you say that, Senator.







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       1             First, is just the simple transplant of

       2      crimes, from the Agriculture and Markets Law to the

       3      penal law.

       4             If the patrol scenario crimes are not the

       5      more commercial-type provisions that, maybe, a state

       6      agency is enforcing -- like, a railway transport for

       7      horses, for example -- if you take them on

       8      patrol-oriented crimes, codify those in the penal

       9      law, I believe that we'll have a much-enhanced,

      10      effective police-academy training.

      11             I -- again, other witnesses on this panel

      12      will be more apt to answer these questions, but most

      13      police academies do focus on vehicle-and-traffic

      14      law, and penal-law training.

      15             Now, granted, there are crimes outside of the

      16      penal law.  There's tax-law crimes.  But, I can't

      17      think of an urgent tax-law crisis that requires a

      18      radio dispatch and immediate action.  That's usually

      19      something that can be handled calmly at a desk.

      20             A lot of these cases with dog fighting in

      21      progress, or severe neglect, or something that

      22      requires immediate intervention, that's not a

      23      tax-law crime.  That's something that a patrolman or

      24      patrolwoman needs to be equipped with immediately,

      25      to act on.







                                                                   24
       1             Now, as you were speaking, you indicated a

       2      certain computer system.

       3             An anecdote, that I'm hoping that the Senate

       4      might take up, is, pursuant to Agriculture and

       5      Markets Law, Section 374(8)(c) -- it used to be

       6      -(5)(c), but it's -(8)(c) now for the most current

       7      copy -- a Court, upon conviction for an animal

       8      crime, is permitted to sentence the abuser to not

       9      have any contact, possession, or control of animals

      10      for a time period which the Court deems reasonable,

      11      moving forward.

      12             Farm animals are excluded, but, in general, a

      13      convicted animal abuser can be barred from having

      14      any non-farm animal for a period of time which the

      15      Court deems reasonable.

      16             Recently, and only in maybe the last year, we

      17      developed a protocol with our local county PD, that

      18      when we get that order from a Court after a

      19      conviction, which is a written order, just like an

      20      order of protection, the county PD will enter it

      21      into our local chief's system which sends something

      22      out to a radio car.

      23             It's the same system that they check for an

      24      order of protection.  So, they're responding to a

      25      situation of domestic violence, or, really anything,







                                                                   25
       1      at any address, and they run the address in their

       2      due diligence as an officer.

       3             Usually they'll see, "Oh, there's an order of

       4      protection in effect for this household.  I might

       5      make an arrest on that."

       6             Or they'll see now, an order of protection

       7      against animals for residents of that household.

       8      And that's how they might uncover it, ancillary to

       9      other purposes.

      10             In conversations with my chief clerk, and

      11      various other chief clerks, there's no statewide

      12      clearinghouse for that order to be entered in the

      13      NYSPIN system.

      14             So, while it's a statewide order, if you're

      15      convicted in Nassau, and I have a great order

      16      against you that I got after a hard-fought case, and

      17      it's entered in my county system, which is the most

      18      I can do right now, there's no procedure to get it

      19      into the NYSPIN system, that I'm aware of currently.

      20      And I believe that's as simple as a memo to the

      21      clerk's office or OCA.

      22             So, when you made that radio-car remark,

      23      that's something that rang a bell.

      24             SENATOR GRIFFO:  The -- we don't know, and

      25      maybe the chief can answer this eventually, too,







                                                                   26
       1      relative to the level of incidence, whether there is

       2      an actual increase that are being reported, but you

       3      said that you do believe there are -- is greater

       4      awareness.

       5             So as a result of that, do you believe

       6      there's a greater and a heightened need for

       7      intervention than there has been in the past?

       8             ADA JED PAINTER:  I do believe, as the public

       9      sensibility has changed, we owe it to the public to

      10      respond accordingly.

      11             Now, there's always going to be this

      12      philosophical and subjective component to animal

      13      crime that makes it unlike any other type of crime.

      14             I give the example that, murder is -- with

      15      the exception of self-defense, murder is wrong.

      16      Rape is wrong.  Arson is wrong.

      17             It's, killing an animal is wrong, unless...

      18             And then you start all of these exemptions:

      19      hunting and fishing, and slaughtering for human

      20      consumption, and various things like that.

      21             There's no "unlesses" with other crimes that

      22      allow for some subjectivity going on.

      23             And, it really is the only type of crime,

      24      where the legislature has hard-and-fast put forward

      25      a definition of "animal" that includes every living







                                                                   27
       1      creature except a human being.

       2             And then, 353, which says it's a crime to

       3      unjustifiably kill or unjustifiably injure any

       4      animal.

       5             So, the legislature has made it absolutely

       6      clear that all animals are protected.

       7             Practically, though, for -- for many

       8      reasons -- if I give the example of, a patrolman

       9      sees somebody squash a spider on the street, and

      10      actually stops the patrol car, and goes up to the

      11      person and says:  Why did you just squash that

      12      spider?

      13             Person says:  I don't like spiders.  That's

      14      why I killed it.

      15             Now, the officer has seen the unjustified

      16      killing of an animal, and he's elicited a

      17      confession, he's got great evidence.  Why isn't he

      18      not arresting?

      19             And it goes back to this: public sentiment

      20      comes first.

      21             First:  Would the public even report such a

      22      thing behind closed doors?

      23             If you saw your friend kill a spider in your

      24      own household, when it's a protected animal:  Would

      25      they call the police on you?







                                                                   28
       1             Would the police then can come?  Would the

       2      police then arrest?  Would a prosecutor then not

       3      laugh it off?  Would a judge then not throw it out

       4      on a Clayton motion?  And, then, would a jury even

       5      convict on it? -- when the legislature has given

       6      that spider the same protection, by their blanket

       7      language, as a turtle or a dog.

       8             So, there's a subjective level to criminal

       9      law enforcement that makes this area of crime a

      10      little more difficult than everything else that can

      11      be so objective.

      12             And this whole thing about public awareness,

      13      it's the public's sentiment.  It's really the jury

      14      nullification.

      15             Does the public care about the species of

      16      animal?  And, also, the species of animal in a

      17      specific situation?

      18             Because there are, sometimes, when it's your

      19      pet gerbil, and sometimes it's a feeder mouse to a

      20      snake.  Or, something you set out a mousetrap for.

      21             So it's not even species-driven.  It's even

      22      social mores and local customs.  And, where was the

      23      animal at the certain time, to make it, unjustified,

      24      a killing?

      25             It's very difficult.







                                                                   29
       1             It's very difficult to assess where the

       2      public sentiment is at any given time.

       3             But, that's as specific as I can be.

       4             As the public sentiment evolves, so does law

       5      enforcement.

       6             SENATOR GRIFFO:  Thank you.

       7             SENATOR RITCHIE:  That definitely shows how

       8      hard it must be to deal with this.

       9             Just for my own knowledge:  If you were

      10      called out on a complaint, when are you allowed to

      11      pick up the animals?

      12             What do you need to actually witness in order

      13      to take the animals out of the house?

      14             ADA JED PAINTER:  There's a few things that

      15      are at play there.

      16             I always -- excuse me.

      17             I almost entirely ignore the Agriculture and

      18      Markets Law's provisions for seizure of animals.

      19             I go back to Article 690 of the

      20      Criminal Procedure Law, with warrants.

      21             And I go to the emergency exceptions to the

      22      warrant requirement.

      23             There hasn't been too much -- there's many --

      24      well, let me put it the other way.

      25             There's many state courts and many federal







                                                                   30
       1      courts that have concretely held that the rescue of

       2      an animal is an emergency exception to the warrant

       3      requirement.

       4             So you don't need -- if you see an animal

       5      being tortured or severely neglected, it needs

       6      emergency medical intervention, and I get that call

       7      as a prosecutor, and the police officer's asking for

       8      guidance, I'm telling him to seize the animal right

       9      away.

      10             And I'll back it up in court that it was a

      11      public-safety seizure, that their primary -- because

      12      it was:  Their primary goal was not to commence a

      13      criminal investigation, but to rescue an obviously

      14      distressed animal.

      15             If it doesn't get to that point, where they

      16      don't feel that urgency, I might then just go to a

      17      judge and get a warrant, to make things very -- just

      18      make sure I'm covered.

      19             I have had situations where I have gotten one

      20      warrant to seize an animal, and then I had to get a

      21      second warrant to examine the animal after it died,

      22      because it was just too far gone.

      23             And once a living animal turns to a dead

      24      animal, the law regards all animals as property.

      25      And examination of the interior of a dog, is no







                                                                   31
       1      different than a warrant to power on a cell phone

       2      and search its contents.

       3             So, in that one case, in a matter of

       4      24 hours, I had to seek two warrants.

       5             And, then, even with those two warrants that

       6      I got, to play it by the book, I still got a motion

       7      from defense counsel, for spoliation of evidence.

       8      That I had destroyed evidence in bad faith.

       9             Because, once the necropsy was completed on

      10      the animal, I had two options from the lab:  It was

      11      to group cremation or sole cremation.

      12             I chose sole cremation.

      13             But either way, he -- the defense attorney

      14      made an apt argument that I destroyed evidence that

      15      he could then not analyze.

      16             And the judge agreed with him, saying that,

      17      yeah, I could have kept it in a refrigerator and not

      18      examined the animal further, to make a stronger case

      19      about the abuse that was going on to the animal.

      20             Also -- I've also had -- and I got to tell

      21      you, the way the criminal-procedure law is written,

      22      it's not written to handle living evidence.  So I

      23      got to hand it to the defense attorney; it was smart

      24      argument to make.

      25             And another smart argument that I've seen







                                                                   32
       1      happen, is on a case where a person shot a dog in

       2      the head with a shotgun.  Had no justification for

       3      doing it, at least that was the theory of my case.

       4             When the police showed up, he alleged,

       5      simply:  Oh, it bit me on the hand.

       6             He had no injury, but he said:  He bit me.

       7             Because of the statement that the dog had it

       8      bitten him, pursuant to the law, they had to chop

       9      the dog's head off and send it to Albany for rabies

      10      testing.

      11             And that destroyed my evidence.

      12             And it also, ultimately, really impacted the

      13      case because, once again, the State -- not the

      14      defendant -- the State had destroyed evidence.

      15             So, again, there's a lot of these technical

      16      issues that criminal law was not designed very well

      17      in handling living evidence.

      18             I gain most of my case law from customs, from

      19      when illegal plants come in through the border, and

      20      they are destroyed by border patrol agents.  And

      21      things like that.  Things that can't remain static.

      22             A gun will remain static on a shelf.

      23             A bag of cocaine will, more or less, remain

      24      static on a shelf.

      25             An animal has financial issues, and you don't







                                                                   33
       1      want to keep it static.

       2             As law enforcement, if I'm seizing an animal,

       3      it's because something's very, very wrong with that

       4      animal.

       5             It's sick, or it's starved, or it was stabbed

       6      nine times, or it was shot in the face, and I want

       7      to help it.

       8             It's my goal to change the status of that

       9      evidence, not to preserve it in state.

      10             And issues come up with that.

      11             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Can I just have one

      12      follow-up question.

      13             If you have a warrant, or if you go out to a

      14      house, and there's a complaint against the

      15      individual for one animal, if you see any other

      16      animals in the house, are you able to confiscate all

      17      the animals, or just the one specifically the

      18      complaint has been about?

      19             ADA JED PAINTER:  It depends on the

      20      situation.

      21             My -- it depends greatly on the situation.

      22             But my general inclination would be, to --

      23      for a lot of reasons.  I haven't seen a case like

      24      that in a while, but -- but my inclination would be,

      25      to get a seizure order for the one animal, and then







                                                                   34
       1      do an impound-in-place order for the remaining

       2      animals.

       3             And the impound-in-place order, which is

       4      sometimes used -- used a lot in farm animals, when

       5      you really don't have the facilities to move them,

       6      there is a provision of the law that allows a judge

       7      to order that, during the pendency of a criminal

       8      case, a law-enforcement entity or an SPCA, or any --

       9      the State -- the State, can go to the person's house

      10      and check on the status of the other animals.

      11             It doesn't foreclose a warrant at a later

      12      date.

      13             But it's -- and it also is an order against

      14      the defendant, to maintain their health and comfort

      15      during the pendency of the criminal action.

      16             So, financially, for a municipality, it's a

      17      benefit to have one of those orders because, now,

      18      they're not boarding 13 different animals.  It

      19      doesn't foreclose a warrant at a later date.

      20             And, also, if the person does progress, or

      21      neglect those animals, then they're arrested for

      22      contempt, as well as arrested again for more counts

      23      of animal cruelty.

      24             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Thank you very much.

      25             Scott, did you want to --







                                                                   35
       1             DA SCOTT D. MCNAMARA:  Sure.

       2             First, I would like to thank the Committee

       3      for inviting me to speak here today about this very

       4      important issue.

       5             As most people in this room, and at least two

       6      of the Senators are aware, we've had some pretty

       7      horrific crimes here locally, involving the

       8      mistreatment and murder of animals.

       9             Typically in such cases, I'm "flooded."  And

      10      I don't use that word lightly, but, flooded with

      11      e-mails, suggesting that we take the crime serious,

      12      that we prosecute it to its maximum, and also ask

      13      for the maximum punishment.

      14             I'm also typically confronted with e-mails

      15      that suggest that different forms of corporal

      16      punishment, and even the death penalty.

      17             Obviously, everyone knows that's not legal,

      18      but, that's how emotional these cases become.

      19             I'm going to limit my comments, really, to

      20      companion animals, as that's what I understand what

      21      this is about, so, I won't talk about farm animals.

      22             As some of you know, I was raised on a local

      23      dairy farm.

      24             I presently own a dog.  I consider myself an

      25      animal-friendly person.







                                                                   36
       1             I'm -- try to break this down and make it as

       2      simple as I can.

       3             I strongly believe, right now, that our laws

       4      minimize the value of an animal's life.

       5             Often, within our laws, the legislature has

       6      thrown in elements that make prosecution difficult,

       7      if not sometimes impossible.

       8             So, let me just kind of tell you how I would

       9      suggest, if you could look it:  I agree with --

      10             And it's, Jed; right?

      11             ADA JED PAINTER:  Jed.

      12             DA SCOTT D. MCNAMARA:  Jed.

      13             -- I agree with Jed, about moving it to the

      14      penal law.

      15             I would also suggest that you break it down

      16      the same as we do people.

      17             That we, first of all, make a crime of

      18      causing physical injury to an animal.  A companion

      19      animal, is what we're talking about.

      20             And the next thing, that we make a separate

      21      crime for causing serious physical injury to a

      22      companion animal.

      23             And then, finally, making the most serious

      24      crime, causing death -- intentionally causing death

      25      to a companion animal.







                                                                   37
       1             Right now, the difficulty that our office has

       2      when we have these cases, and I can't really talk

       3      about the facts of the case, but there's a case

       4      pending right now involving six dogs, is proving the

       5      felony-level crime, which most people think should

       6      be happening.

       7             And under the felony-level crime, as you're

       8      all aware of, aggravated cruelty to animals, we have

       9      to prove, within that section of the law, aggravated

      10      cruelty.

      11             It's not enough that we can prove that a

      12      person intentionally takes the life of a companion

      13      animal.  We have to additionally prove aggravated

      14      cruelty.

      15             Under that, we have to prove that they

      16      intended to cause extreme physical pain; and, also,

      17      it was done, or it was done -- not also -- in a

      18      depraved and sadistic manner.

      19             So the mere fact that somebody intentionally

      20      kills a companion animal doesn't do the trick.

      21             And let me give you a fact pattern.

      22             My dog gets loose, runs next door, and my

      23      neighbor takes out his shotgun, and shoots and kills

      24      my dog.

      25             Right now, that crime would have to be







                                                                   38
       1      prosecuted as a misdemeanor.

       2             Most likely, we would look at it as some sort

       3      of property crime; meaning, criminal-mischief-type

       4      of level crime.

       5             Now we're getting into the value of my dog,

       6      trying to determine whether or not what the value

       7      would be.

       8             So, we're not look it a like we would, that

       9      we're talking about an actual living animal that was

      10      killed.

      11             And in that situation, it would be difficult,

      12      and I submit to you, impossible, to prove the

      13      extreme physical pain, or the depraved and sadistic

      14      manner, because, the problem with the law, as it's

      15      written right now in the Ag and Markets, you haven't

      16      defined a lot of these terms.

      17             So, ultimately, we have to fall back on the

      18      definitions that are in the penal law, which apply

      19      to people, and those definitions don't support a

      20      one-shot killing to justify that level of a crime.

      21             I'll give a perfect example of a case we had

      22      here locally, which I'm sure some people are

      23      familiar with.

      24             A few years ago, we had a gentleman in the

      25      town of Kirkland, who got mad at his wife.  He took







                                                                   39
       1      his wife's dog down into the basement of their

       2      house, he shot and killed it.

       3             His intent was to hurt his wife; to hurt her

       4      feelings.

       5             Which, clearly, he did.

       6             He also killed an innocent animal, for no

       7      other reason than out of anger.

       8             And when it came time for us to prosecute

       9      that case, the problem we had was, proving the

      10      extreme physical pain, because it was a one-shot

      11      situation, where the dog died immediately.

      12             That, to me, defies the logic of the crime

      13      that he committed.

      14             I mean, it's a very unnecessary crime.  I

      15      don't know why we should have to prove the

      16      aggravated cruelty.

      17             And if we're going to prove aggravated

      18      cruelty, I would submit to you, then make that a

      19      higher-level crime.  But give us a felony-level

      20      crime of intentionally killing a companion animal

      21      without justification or necessity.

      22             And I say the "justification" and

      23      "necessity," obviously, I think some of you know

      24      what I'm talking about; but "justification" would

      25      be, you know, obviously, the self-defense situation,







                                                                   40
       1      where the dog was attacking you.  Or, a "necessity,"

       2      if the dog had rabies, and it was necessary.

       3             But, I really think, if we broke this down

       4      and just made it a lot simpler.

       5             Right now, the Ag and Markets Law is very

       6      difficult to read.

       7             And I agree: the police don't typically have

       8      that on them.

       9             And, we could make this a lot easier.  And

      10      also provide rights to our animals, and also provide

      11      rights to the owners of these animals, that

      12      currently don't seem to be there.

      13             Couple of other things I just wanted to touch

      14      upon, which I won't go into a great amount of

      15      detail:

      16             You know, obviously, defining the words that

      17      are in that Ag and Markets Law would be very

      18      beneficial to us, so that we don't have to guess or

      19      rely upon a Court's interpretation.

      20             And another thing that is a concern of ours,

      21      and especially in my office, and the prosecutor that

      22      handles a lot of the cases:  Because these are under

      23      the Ag and Markets Law, they don't apply for second

      24      felony offender.  They don't apply for -- as was

      25      said before, they don't apply for DNA.  And some







                                                                   41
       1      don't even apply for fingerprinting.

       2             So, you know, those are the type of things

       3      that we need to look at.

       4             Because, if we have somebody who is -- has a

       5      long history of criminal conduct, and it's all under

       6      the penal law, and then he goes out and

       7      intentionally kills his neighbor's dog for no

       8      reason, other than just because he felt like being

       9      mean, we're left with a relatively minor crime, with

      10      very little punishment available to us.

      11             And, honestly, the public doesn't understand

      12      that.

      13             They do not understand, when I try to explain

      14      to them, you know, that the law doesn't provide for

      15      more protection for companion animals.

      16             So, that's what I would, you know, just ask

      17      you to consider, and to push forward, because, you

      18      know, as the law is written right now, it's very

      19      difficult for us to prosecute.

      20             And, honestly, you know, it's written, as was

      21      explained, with enough loopholes in it, that a good

      22      defense attorney -- as we saw recently in a case

      23      here, involving a dog that was shot three times and

      24      killed, a good defense attorney doesn't really have

      25      a problem getting somebody acquitted on these type







                                                                   42
       1      of charges.

       2             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Thank you.

       3             DA SCOTT D. MCNAMARA:  Thank you.

       4             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Do you have any questions?

       5             SENATOR GRIFFO:  Scott, when you talk about

       6      it being minimized right now, do you believe --

       7      there are a number of ideas, and that's one of the

       8      reasons to conduct the hearing, too, that are out

       9      there right now; is, DA Rice has some suggestions,

      10      and there are other members who have ideas.

      11             Do you think the best means to accomplish

      12      this would be through strengthening some of the

      13      existing laws, or looking at new laws?

      14             And, then, where is that best placed?

      15             I know I heard something, saying, maybe out

      16      of Ag and Markets, and into, you know, another

      17      aspect of the criminal code.

      18             I mean, what is the best way?

      19             Should we strengthen what we have, and -- or

      20      should we look to some new things that have to be

      21      done?

      22             And, then, where's the best place?

      23             DA SCOTT D. MCNAMARA:  I can only speak for

      24      myself.

      25             I would like to see it moved to the penal







                                                                   43
       1      law.  And I would like to see it --

       2             [Applause.]

       3             DA SCOTT D. MCNAMARA:  And I would like to

       4      see it rewritten, to be broken down similar to how

       5      we handle crimes on people; and that be:

       6             Physical injury.

       7             [Applause.]

       8             DA SCOTT D. MCNAMARA:  And that would be with

       9      a physical-injury element, which in -- with people,

      10      is assault, you know, third.

      11             With serious physical injury, which, with

      12      people, is assault in first or second degree,

      13      depending on how it's done.

      14             And, ultimately, you know, the murder of an

      15      animal.

      16             So, I would rather see it done that way, than

      17      to try to take things out of the Ag and Markets Law

      18      that make it difficult.

      19             That would be my position.

      20             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Chief, do you have some

      21      comments?

      22             CHIEF MARK WILLIAMS:  Yes, thank you.

      23             I'm Chief of Police Mark Williams.  I'm the

      24      chief for the city of Utica.

      25             We serve, roughly, a population of







                                                                   44
       1      62,000 people.

       2             I have a 163 men and women on the police

       3      force.

       4             And, we have one full-time animal-control

       5      officer that we nearly lost during the last budget

       6      process, where we wouldn't have any.

       7             It certainly presents its challenges.  And

       8      what we have had to do, is reach out to other

       9      entities, to get training for several of our police

      10      officers, to fill in for our animal-control officer

      11      when he's not available.

      12             But, just to give you an idea of what we face

      13      during the course of a year:

      14             During the year 2010, we, roughly, responded

      15      to about 12,000 calls for animal control, and we saw

      16      about 46 arrests during that year.

      17             And last year, that increased to well over

      18      1,800 calls.  And, again, we saw an increase in

      19      arrests: about 54.

      20             And this year, we're well on pace to exceed

      21      the amount of animal-control calls that we're going

      22      on, as well as the amount of arrests.

      23             So, the problem that we're having is

      24      certainly increasing.

      25             A lot of the cases that we come across, when







                                                                   45
       1      it comes to animal cruelty, believe it or not, are

       2      cases involving our drug investigators executing

       3      search warrants in a lot of these houses.

       4             Unfortunately, a lot of these dogs,

       5      especially the pit bulls, are becoming nothing more

       6      than tools of the trade for the drug dealer, who are

       7      trying to ward off anybody that may come into the

       8      house, to try to take their stash, and to protect

       9      it.

      10             And, what we're seeing in a lot of those

      11      cases is the cruelty charges as well.

      12             I mean, last year alone, we executed over

      13      150 drug search warrants here in city of Utica.

      14             And, you know, like, again, we certainly saw

      15      our challenges.

      16             And, again, the primary dog that we're --

      17      type of breed of dog that we're seeing is certainly

      18      the pit bull, that we're seeing.

      19             But, just to highlight on a couple of things

      20      that the other two speakers talked about prior to

      21      myself:

      22             I do agree that, now, the law should be

      23      changed to the penal law.

      24             When I first came on the job, back in 1988, I

      25      didn't know that the Agriculture and Markets Law







                                                                   46
       1      existed.

       2             It took, maybe, three years into my career,

       3      that I had studied for a sergeant's exam, that I

       4      found out about the Agriculture and Markets Law,

       5      and, more importantly, about the animal-cruelty

       6      laws, to boot.

       7             Since that time, you know, thank God, police

       8      training has changed dramatically.

       9             But even today, I mean, our officers do have

      10      access to the Agriculture and Markets Law, through

      11      their mobile data terminal, which is their computer

      12      in their car.

      13             But, they have to search for it.  You know,

      14      they have to do a search query.  They got to know

      15      that it's in the Agriculture and Markets Law, to

      16      find it.

      17             So, I think by moving it to the main law that

      18      we use every day, which is the penal law, it makes

      19      it simpler and more easy to use.  And, you tend to

      20      find that the laws in the penal law are the ones

      21      that tend to get the most attention when it comes to

      22      police academy and training, and in-service training

      23      as well.

      24             So, other than that, I'm certainly open to

      25      any questions that you may have.







                                                                   47
       1             SENATOR RITCHIE:  You talk about the number

       2      of cases.

       3             Can you tell me what percentage were actually

       4      neglect and abuse?

       5             I mean, you must get calls for other reasons.

       6             So, I guess, what percentage would you

       7      consider were neglect or abuse?

       8             CHIEF MARK WILLIAMS:  I don't have those

       9      stats available.

      10             I can certainly get those for you.

      11             I will tell you this:

      12             Is that, you know, back about a year and half

      13      ago, I instituted a new policy with the Utica Police

      14      Department, and we created a "public information

      15      officer" position.

      16             And what we saw is, that whenever any of

      17      these animal-cruelty cases, you know, was put out to

      18      the news media, they go viral.

      19             And the phone calls to my office, I mean,

      20      they're not limited to Utica, New York, they're not

      21      limited to the state of New York.  They're

      22      limited -- they're -- you know, they come in from

      23      all entities, include some other countries.  And,

      24      letters.

      25             So, it's obvious that people are speaking.







                                                                   48
       1             This is a serious concern.  You know,

       2      nationwide, worldwide, it's a serious problem.

       3             And I think, likewise, we got to strengthen

       4      the laws, and make it workable for the police

       5      officers to be able to properly charge that.

       6             There's always going to be challenges in

       7      enforcing the laws, too, because one of the things

       8      that you got to prove, is intent.

       9             And, one of the biggest problems you're

      10      dealing with, you're dealing with a victim that,

      11      obviously, they can't speak for itself.

      12             So, there are certainly challenges.

      13             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Do you have a question?

      14             SENATOR GRIFFO:  Chief, when -- you, and,

      15      obviously, in many communities across the state, are

      16      being financially challenged right now.

      17             So, even though you have officers who are

      18      entrusted with that specific responsibility,

      19      so-called "animal-control officers" in many

      20      communities, in many instances, you're going to have

      21      to rely on the rank and file also to augment that,

      22      because, as you said, you're never going to have

      23      enough officers that you may need to deal with the

      24      situation.

      25             CHIEF MARK WILLIAMS:  Absolutely.







                                                                   49
       1             SENATOR GRIFFO:  So, how do you prepare your

       2      department, then, to do that?

       3             With adequate training?

       4             And, what's the best approach?

       5             Because, again, you have fiscal challenges;

       6      but, obviously, you can't rely on one particular

       7      segment of the department, or public safety, to take

       8      care of the whole situation.

       9             CHIEF MARK WILLIAMS:  Absolutely.

      10             Just recently, we had an outside animal -- I

      11      forgot the name of the organization that came in and

      12      did in-service training for, basically, about

      13      five officers that volunteered, that basically do

      14      the work of an animal-control officer, in his

      15      absence.

      16             What we have -- in addition to that training,

      17      we opened it up to the Stevens-Swan Humane Society

      18      organization as well.

      19             And, one thing I would like to highlight with

      20      the Stevens-Swan Humane Society:  We have an

      21      excellent working relationship with them.  They are

      22      phenomenal.

      23             They themselves have, you know, financial

      24      challenges as well.

      25             And, you know, we work well with them.







                                                                   50
       1             But, what's nice about specifically training

       2      several other officers to do the work of the

       3      animal-control officers, now, in those absences,

       4      when he's not work his 8-hour day, we can now fill

       5      that void, and have officers there, specially

       6      trained to deal with these matters.

       7             SENATOR GRIFFO:  But let me ask a follow-up,

       8      maybe -- and anybody can answer this, because I

       9      think you brought up an interesting point here.

      10             Because we look at balance, we're here to try

      11      to protect animals, obviously companion animals.

      12      And that's what we're trying to gather information

      13      on, and to determine the best course of action.

      14             But you brought up a point, where animals are

      15      trained to be weapons.

      16             And then, as a result, you put

      17      law-enforcement officers in harm's way.  Or,

      18      potentially, even community residents.

      19             I mean, how do we strike that balance there,

      20      with owner accountability, and if an animal is

      21      trained to become, and used against individuals who

      22      is are trying to execute and enforce the law too?

      23             CHIEF MARK WILLIAMS:  There is provisions of

      24      the penal law that do deal with a -- you know, a --

      25      and it's in the assault section, I believe, they







                                                                   51
       1      deal with an animal that is used as an extension of

       2      the owner, to strike out as a police officer.

       3             The problem that we face, is that we execute

       4      no-knock search warrants.  So when we initially

       5      enter, the first person -- or, the first thing

       6      that's going hear us is the animal.

       7             And the next thing you know, our officers are

       8      coming through the door, and they're faced with a

       9      charging pit bull, most of the times.

      10             SENATOR GRIFFO:  I'm just asking, from

      11      prosecutorial or law enforcement, what else could we

      12      do with ownership?

      13             Because, obviously, there's got to be owner

      14      accountability too.  And, many of these are

      15      criminals.

      16             So, I mean, are there additional charges that

      17      can be put on --

      18             DA SCOTT D. MCNAMARA:  I would think, yes,

      19      Senator.

      20             I would think that you should have a law that

      21      specifically addresses the situation where people

      22      are using their dog to do -- and not make us try to

      23      make it work.  Okay?

      24             So, for example:  If someone's using their

      25      dog to be a weapon, and then we're trying to prove







                                                                   52
       1      it through an assault section, that's very

       2      difficult, because then you have, within the middle

       3      of that:  Well, the dog did it on its own.  I didn't

       4      intend it.

       5             And that becomes very difficult.

       6             And, you know, another thing is, just the

       7      neglect and the mistreatment of the dog that goes on

       8      when they're doing that.

       9             You know, a lot of times, they're making

      10      these dogs mean.

      11             You know, I've read different things.

      12      Pit bulls, you know, not always by nature, are a

      13      mean dog.

      14             They're made mean, because they want them to

      15      be aggressive when people come in the back door, and

      16      the front door, as the case might be.

      17             So, that all needs to be looked at if we're

      18      really going have a serious discussion about, you

      19      know, animal rights, and passing laws that address

      20      these problems.

      21             SENATOR GRIFFO:  So it would be owner

      22      accountability as well as animal rights?

      23             DA SCOTT D. MCNAMARA:  It's like endangering

      24      the welfare of a child.

      25             I mean, we look at that situation, when







                                                                   53
       1      people, how they interact with children.

       2             The same thing, some form of that, with a

       3      dog, I would submit, would be an appropriate.

       4             You know, obviously, it's going to be a

       5      lesser charge, but it should definitely be something

       6      that we could prosecute.

       7             Right now, it's very difficult to do that.

       8             ADA JED PAINTER:  And on that note:  One of

       9      our best partnerships is with CPS and APS.

      10             We found out, very early on, that neglect is

      11      neglect.  And whenever we see an animal neglected,

      12      we've usually seen some child neglect; and

      13      vice versa.

      14             And CPS knows that.  And that's one of the

      15      professional relationships we've worked hard to

      16      develop.

      17             There's all of these studies about serial

      18      killers coming out of, you know, animal tortures,

      19      and gang activity coming out of dog fighting.

      20             And I've seen a lot of those links firsthand.

      21             But, I got to tell you, I don't understand

      22      why there has to be so many studies, to show that a

      23      violent person is a violent person, and a neglectful

      24      person is a neglectful person.

      25             [Applause.]







                                                                   54
       1             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Senator Valesky, did you

       2      have any questions?

       3             Thank you all.

       4             ADA JED PAINTER:  Thank you.

       5             DA SCOTT D. MCNAMARA:  Thank you.

       6             CHIEF MARK WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

       7             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Bill is going to testify.

       8             Bill, do you want to come up, please.

       9             SENATOR GRIFFO:  Senator Ritchie, while we're

      10      getting situated here, I also want to mention that

      11      we have many local advocates in our community that

      12      are here today.

      13             The Stevens-Swan Humane Society is here.

      14             Spring Farm CARES is here.

      15             Central New York Kennel Club is here.

      16             I want to thank all of the public who have

      17      come, but particularly organizations who have shown

      18      their interest and have provided written testimony.

      19             Thank you.

      20             SENATOR RITCHIE:  And the final speaker will

      21      be Bill Ketzer, senior state legislative director,

      22      Northeastern Region of the ASPCA.

      23             Thank you very much for coming today.

      24             BILL KETZER:  Thank you.

      25             Thank you for having me, Madam Chair,







                                                                   55
       1      Senator Griffo, Senator Valesky, Mr. Kusnierz.

       2             My name is Bill Ketzer.

       3             And like you mentioned, I am the senior state

       4      legislative director for the northeast, for the

       5      ASPCA.

       6             I am, actually, fairly new to this position.

       7             In my previous capacity, I was a

       8      deputy commissioner of the Department of Agriculture

       9      and Markets.

      10             And before that, I was, what I like to call,

      11      a creature of the legislature myself.

      12             And, so, I know what goes into putting these

      13      meetings, and taking them on the road, especially

      14      during a busy May legislative session.

      15             So, thanks for the opportunity to be here

      16      today.

      17             I can speak reasonably confidently for our

      18      200,000 New York members when I applaud your

      19      interest in learning more about the existing

      20      challenges in regards to companion-animal cruelty.

      21      And also, perhaps, taking action to address some of

      22      the more problematic public-policy issues we face

      23      today, which -- some of which were very eloquently

      24      described by folks who preceded me.

      25             This -- these laws are, you know, often the







                                                                   56
       1      first, and only, defense for companion animals.

       2             And, so, I can't really stress the importance

       3      of a public forum like this to increase the

       4      visibility of these types of issues.

       5             So, thank you.

       6             State-level anti-cruelty laws generally

       7      penalize two types of actions, and we've touched on

       8      that a little bit.

       9             So you have (a) intentional acts, and (b) the

      10      failure to act; or an act of omission, so to speak.

      11             So, currently, only three states in the

      12      country failed to differentiate between the two, and

      13      provide some sort of felony offense for the

      14      intentional aggravated commission of animal cruelty.

      15             In New York State, as also mentioned earlier,

      16      the intentional act of aggravated animal cruelty is

      17      a felony, applicable only to companion animals.

      18             And this is more commonly known as

      19      "Buster's Law."  And this is Ag and Markets Law,

      20      Section 353-a.

      21             And the language of the statute was pretty

      22      carefully negotiated upon its enactment in '99, from

      23      what I understand, and is very prescriptive, in

      24      that:  "The offender must" --

      25             And this is the definition.







                                                                   57
       1             -- "with no justifiable purpose,

       2      intentionally kill or intentionally cause serious

       3      physical injury to a companion animal with conduct

       4      either intended to cause extreme physical pain or is

       5      carried out in an especially depraved or sadistic

       6      manner."

       7             So there's a lot of intents in there, and

       8      it's a very tight definition.

       9             And perhaps, in part, due to specificity of

      10      this law, many cruelty situations in New York, more

      11      typically fall, of course, into the failure-to-act

      12      realm.  And the General Animal Cruelty Law is

      13      applicable to all animals, and quite broadly

      14      scripted.

      15             And, typically, these violations carry a

      16      Class A misdemeanor, and include -- and, again, this

      17      is a very antiquated statute:  Overdriving,

      18      overloading, torturing, cruelly beating,

      19      unjustifiably injuring, maiming, mutilating,

      20      killing, depriving of unnecessary sustenance, food

      21      or drink; or willfully engaging, instigating, or

      22      furthering any of the above acts.

      23             But, despite this expansive definition, the

      24      law does not specifically, in my opinion -- and I'm

      25      not a prosecutor or an attorney, and I don't play







                                                                   58
       1      one on TV.  Like I said, I'm a creature of the

       2      legislature. -- but, in my opinion, the law doesn't

       3      specifically include provisions for what is,

       4      overwhelmingly, the most common injustice humans

       5      inflict upon animal companions, and that is: actual

       6      abandonment.

       7             In neighboring states, and in most

       8      U.S. states, "abandonment" is either kind of tucked

       9      in the definition of the state's cruelty laws, and

      10      punishable under the same.  Or, a broad definition

      11      of "abandonment," is provided, that can include

      12      private premises.

      13             And, of course, as in all situations, you'd

      14      like to think, you know, these are broadly defined

      15      to allow for factual circumstances, to determine

      16      criminal culpability.

      17             But New York, by contrast, interestingly, has

      18      a separate and distinct law on the books for

      19      abandonment of animals, that has been determined to

      20      be applicable, "when any animal is left to suffer or

      21      die" --

      22             That's a quote from the statute.

      23             -- "suffer or die in a public place."

      24             And that's Section 355 of the Agriculture and

      25      Markets Law.







                                                                   59
       1             And Mr. Painter commented on how antiquated

       2      law these laws are.

       3             And, so, this "abandonment" provision, in

       4      particular, was chaptered in 1961.  So that's about

       5      50 years ago.  And the statute was most likely -- I

       6      wasn't alive back then, but, most likely, it was

       7      geared towards curtailing abuses of work animals.

       8             And, now, is also readily applicable to

       9      situations where folks leave animals at shelters

      10      without formally surrendering the animal.

      11             I have the definition in the testimony.  I'm

      12      not going of sit here and read the entire thing.

      13             But, to me, unfortunately, what this means,

      14      is that the abandonment law is kind of useless in an

      15      incident like the one here recently in Utica, where,

      16      you know, the eight dogs were found abandoned in a

      17      Whitesboro Street residence.

      18             So, the owner has been charged -- and someone

      19      can please correct me if I'm incorrect -- but I

      20      believe the owner has been charged with eight counts

      21      of misdemeanor cruelty.

      22             That's the failure to act.

      23             And several non-criminal violations:

      24      Unlicensed dog, and things of that nature.

      25             But there's, I think, a significant missed







                                                                   60
       1      opportunity here to -- you know, if the abandonment

       2      law included abandonment of an animal on a private

       3      premise, that would be an additional, separate and

       4      distinct crime that could be prosecuted under the

       5      Agriculture and Markets Law.

       6             And, I would like to think of that as more of

       7      an early intervention mechanism.

       8             I mean, as it stands now, the -- a

       9      law-enforcement official cannot charge an owner

      10      solely on the basis that or she has abandoned a pet

      11      in a residence, despite the potential, and almost --

      12      and a lot of times, unfortunately, inevitable

      13      consequences if the animal's left unchecked.

      14             This is, I think -- I want to just stress the

      15      importance of it, because, you know, neglect and

      16      abandonment are, by far, the most common crimes,

      17      according to a lot of different national

      18      organizations.

      19             I use as an example, petabuse.com, because

      20      they are a New York-based organization.

      21             But, they're national, not-for-profit.

      22             And they compile animal-cruelty information

      23      state by state.

      24             And, you have a chart here.  I couldn't bring

      25      my PowerPoint today, but you can see that, on the







                                                                   61
       1      chart, that abandonment is, by far, the most common

       2      crime.

       3             And, interestingly, right above that is,

       4      animal hoarding, which is a topic for another

       5      hearing, I believe.

       6             For many years, Assembly Member John McEneny

       7      has attempted to close this abandonment-law loophole

       8      with, this year's bill is A-1878.  This bill would

       9      make abandonment applicable to private property.

      10             The Assembly Agriculture Committee reports

      11      this regularly, but it has actually never reached

      12      the floor for a full vote in that house.

      13             The legislation does not currently have a

      14      Senate sponsor.  However, Senator Valesky, your

      15      predecessor, took this bill on for many -- many

      16      years, and was able to get it through the Senate.

      17             So, I would be happy to work with members of

      18      this Committee, or any member of the Senate or their

      19      staff, to take a harder look at the way these

      20      sometimes antiquated laws are constructed, with an

      21      eye toward providing better prevention and response

      22      and prosecutorial tools for law enforcement.

      23             So, and that said, I just wanted to talk a

      24      little bit more about other anti-cruelty proposals

      25      that are out there in the legislature right now.







                                                                   62
       1             Todd, you mentioned Senator Ball's two bills.

       2             5804, which would provide that no person

       3      convicted of a violation of Buster's Law --

       4             That's the felony cruelty.

       5             -- can no longer possess a companion animal

       6      unless authorized by the county court, following a

       7      psychological evaluation.

       8             And then, also, the expansion of the felony

       9      cruelty law to include harm-training laws during the

      10      commission of a felony.

      11             So, thank you for reporting that recently.

      12             The other two I would just like to mention:

      13      There's a lot of animal bills in the legislature, as

      14      I'm sure that you know all too well.

      15             These are general concepts that a lot of

      16      members have tried to tackle, and have struggled

      17      with over the years.  And, so, I'm just mentioning

      18      these as examples, as just general examples, of

      19      these concepts.

      20             Assemblywoman Paulin from Westchester has a

      21      bill, A-269, which would make any misdemeanor a

      22      cruelty violation within five years from the date

      23      prior.

      24             Basically, if you have been convicted of

      25      misdemeanor cruelty within five years, and then you







                                                                   63
       1      offend again, that would be a crime on the level of

       2      the Buster's Law statute.

       3             So, that would be a Class E felony -- or, the

       4      lesser Class E felony, as Mr. Painter had

       5      described.

       6             In addition, and this one is actually new, it

       7      comes and goes, but I think it's actually very

       8      important to mention, it's not directly, necessarily

       9      related to the cruelty statute, but,

      10      Assemblyman Magee, the Agriculture Chair in the

      11      Assembly, has introduced a bill that would prohibit

      12      the tethering of dogs to stationary objects or

      13      certain types of mobile devices.

      14             Pretty carefully scripted.

      15             Pretty consistent with the New York City's

      16      new law on the books, as of, I believe, last year.

      17             And, consistent with a lot of what other

      18      states are looking at.

      19             It basically provides exemptions for, you

      20      know, a lot of obvious stuff.  You know, veterinary

      21      and grooming and hunting and training, and other

      22      types of activities.

      23             And, this was a brand new bill, 10053.  And

      24      also, currently, does not have Senate sponsorship.

      25             So, certainly, a significant degree of debate







                                                                   64
       1      always surrounds the expansion of the existing

       2      cruelty statutes in the legislature.

       3             But, public forums like this, I can't stress

       4      enough, are essential to further that discourse, and

       5      elevate public visibility.

       6             So, thanks to you all for being here today as

       7      well.

       8             I wanted to talk a little it be about the

       9      ASPCA's law-enforcement resources that are available

      10      to municipal law-enforcement officials.

      11             So, in addition to the legislative solutions

      12      we just talked about, other means exist to

      13      strengthen the safety net for animal protection, and

      14      show the public that New York means business when it

      15      comes to enforcing its existing animal-cruelty laws.

      16             I really would -- I would be remiss not to

      17      make the Committee aware of our outreach services,

      18      as they relate to cruelty.

      19             We have an anti-cruelty group.

      20             The legislature -- the legislative unit used

      21      to fall under the anti-cruelty group, was -- our

      22      government-relations arm is now growing, and it has

      23      come out from underneath anti-cruelty unit, leaving

      24      the anti-cruelty group to really focus on what it

      25      does.







                                                                   65
       1             They have an actual contract in New York City

       2      to do humane law enforcement in New York

       3      City-proper.  But in addition to that, they provide

       4      professional education to law-enforcement officials.

       5             And that's available on an as-needed basis,

       6      upon request, as resources, as we're able to do

       7      that.

       8             The anti-cruelty-group umbrella also houses a

       9      field services department, which works with

      10      professionals in the veterinary, judicial,

      11      law-enforcement, and social-services fields, to

      12      educate them on detecting, investigating, and

      13      prosecuting animal cruelty.

      14             We do this all over the country.  And, it's

      15      vital, because a growing body of research is, of

      16      course, as others have talked about today, have

      17      documented the link between violence to humans and

      18      animal abuse.

      19             The ASPCA also recently announced the

      20      creation of a legal advocacy department, to increase

      21      legal protections for animals across the country.

      22             This department is headed up by a woman named

      23      Stacy Wolfe, who's actually my, not immediate

      24      predecessor, but, a predecessor.

      25             She was the former lobbyist for the ASPCA in







                                                                   66
       1      New York State.

       2             She heads-up our humane legal-services

       3      department.  And then, also, the legal-advocacy

       4      department.

       5             That's a lot of hats to wear.

       6             And they're going to provide second -- this

       7      was recently announced, literally, last week, but

       8      it's been in the works for quite some time.

       9             And what they're going to do is, provide

      10      second-chair legal support through the coordination

      11      of legal and other expert services that are vital to

      12      the effective handling of animal-cruelty

      13      prosecutions, as well as conduct selective,

      14      affirmative civil litigation cases, in instances

      15      where the potential to effect substantial change in

      16      a given state exists for a nationwide impact.

      17             So, I'm going to provide my -- you have my

      18      contact information, but I'll leave some cards as I

      19      leave.  And I urge anyone to contact me regarding

      20      our availability for law-enforcement training, and

      21      any other services we offer in your districts, and

      22      surrounding jurisdictions.

      23             Lastly, I was simply -- I was pleased to see

      24      in your press release announcing this hearing,

      25      Senator, that this week is "Be Kind To Animals







                                                                   67
       1      Week."

       2             And this is a great time to focus on -- for

       3      everyone to share -- to focus on sharing love and

       4      compassion of animals, particularly with children.

       5             Since they -- you know, they literally

       6      inherit our future.  And, humane education begins,

       7      first, at home, and then can continue in the

       8      classroom, whether it's volunteering at your local

       9      shelter, learning about how to report animal abuse,

      10      adopting a homeless animal, or simply just getting

      11      involved locally and advocating for change.

      12             I hope some of you here today will find ways

      13      to support programs that educate children to treat

      14      animals humanely, and encourage others to do the

      15      same.

      16             So to close:  In the last few years of the

      17      twentieth century, animal welfare has received a

      18      great deal of legislative attention.

      19             When I was in the legislature, and for about

      20      five years prior, I was fortunate enough, when I was

      21      the director of the Assembly Agriculture Committee,

      22      I was left a huge body of information; lots of

      23      different public hearings on companion-animal

      24      issues.

      25             40 miles from here, a gentleman named







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       1      Michael Bragman, then Assembly and former majority

       2      leader, way back, when was the chairman of the

       3      Agriculture Committee in that house, and did a ton

       4      of work on this stuff.

       5             But, recently, and there's tons -- there's

       6      many, many reasons for this, of course, but,

       7      hearings and roundtables and other public

       8      opportunities of this sort, have been few and far

       9      between.  And that's a shame, because, in a

      10      prolonged economic downswing, like we're currently

      11      experiencing, and, hopefully, kind of creeping our

      12      way out of, a lot of bad decisions are made

      13      regarding pet ownership.

      14             So, interestingly, the infrastructure for

      15      animal care and sheltering and other services are

      16      slowly changing as well, as a lot of effort is being

      17      put into rescue organizations, and formalizing the

      18      relationship they have with shelters.

      19             It doesn't sound controversial on its face,

      20      but it is an enormously controversial issue.  And,

      21      so, that's coming up at the same time.

      22             So, I really applaud your efforts to bring

      23      folks together here today, to talk about this issue.

      24             And I hope that -- I look forward to future

      25      opportunities in that respect.







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       1             So, I would be happy to answer any questions

       2      you might have.

       3             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Thank you, Bill.

       4             Just for clarification:  You were talking

       5      about New York City and education for law

       6      enforcement.

       7             Did you say that was available locally --

       8             BILL KETZER:  Yes.

       9             SENATOR RITCHIE:  -- or just in New York

      10      City?

      11             BILL KETZER:  No, it's available to anybody

      12      who wants to request that.

      13             I can -- I'll take the information of

      14      anybody.

      15             What we do is, our humane law-enforcement

      16      division will go out into communities, and provide

      17      educational seminars to local law-enforcement

      18      officials.  That could be county government, county

      19      sheriffs.  That can be, we do state police academy,

      20      we do local police.  All over the state.

      21             In New York City, in addition to that, the

      22      ASPCA has long-held the contract for the City, to do

      23      actual humane law enforcement.  So -- and that's the

      24      only place we do that.

      25             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Thank you.







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       1             Senator Griffo?

       2             SENATOR GRIFFO:  Quickly, putting your former

       3      hat on, we did invite the Department of Agriculture,

       4      but I think they were unable to attend.

       5             As a former deputy commissioner, is that the

       6      appropriate place for jurisdiction or

       7      responsibility, who we deal with?

       8             BILL KETZER:  Oh, boy.

       9             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Nothing like putting you on

      10      the spot.

      11             BILL KETZER:  The cameras are gone; right?

      12             No.  No.

      13             I mean, and I'm confident to say that.

      14             And that's not a knock on the Department of

      15      Agriculture.

      16             The Division of Animal Industry has no

      17      law-enforcement capability.  They do not -- they are

      18      not authorized in this state, to -- to prosecute, to

      19      investigate, animal cruelty.

      20             And that would be -- they have no

      21      jurisdiction over Article 26 of the Agriculture and

      22      Markets Law.

      23             So, they often -- you know, they -- what

      24      happens is, the legislature has given them some

      25      companion-animal programs over the years.







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       1             The only one that's left is the Pet Dealer

       2      Program.  A lot of folks call that the "puppy mill

       3      program," but it's -- it's a pet-dealer program.

       4      It's -- they go after who they can with the

       5      resources that they have.  And what that means,

       6      really, is pet stores.  They do very few breeders

       7      selling at retail.

       8             SENATOR GRIFFO:  We talked about the

       9      financial difficulties facing communities,

      10      organizations.  We have a number of great

      11      organizations that are present here today, as I

      12      indicated.

      13             Do you -- because they're also facing

      14      financial challenges, do you cooperate and

      15      collaborate with them, to assist in trying to

      16      provide some of the things that you talked about?

      17             Like, training, that maybe the Utica Police

      18      Department might need, and you could help, the

      19      Stevens-Swan Humane Society.

      20             Are those type of collaborations in

      21      existence?

      22             BILL KETZER:  Yep.  We -- I don't know right

      23      off the top, whether or not we have collaborated

      24      with Stevens-Swan.

      25             But, we do have a community-outreach







                                                                   72
       1      department.

       2             And -- which has recently kind of been

       3      overhauled.  And, so, we do have a

       4      community-outreach person, who serves both New York

       5      and New Jersey.  Jo Van Tyle [ph.] is her name.

       6             And she is the one who is the direct --

       7      that's the person that not-for-profit organizations,

       8      SPCAs, animal shelters, can reach out directly --

       9             SENATOR GRIFFO:  But there is a willingness,

      10      and a possibility, to also interact with our

      11      organizations who are, as I indicated, facing

      12      financial challenges too, that, maybe, in a

      13      collaborative effort, they could help communities

      14      and municipalities that may need additional training

      15      and other types of assistance?

      16             BILL KETZER:  Absolutely.  Absolutely.

      17             And I should -- I guess I would be remiss,

      18      too, to mention that, at the sheltering level at the

      19      humane society -- the local humane-society, local

      20      SPCA level, the -- as a part of the -- I'm going to

      21      put my old hat back on for one more minute -- the

      22      2010 budget, the Department of Agriculture and

      23      Markets used to have an animal population-control

      24      program.  And what that is, is it's funded by a

      25      surcharge on dog licenses.







                                                                   73
       1             The department wanted out of the business.

       2      The 2010 budget got them out of the business, and

       3      created a great, much more expansive program, in

       4      terms of the types of eligible programs that

       5      shelters can apply for.

       6             And, counties and municipalities are eligible

       7      as well.

       8             That's a -- over -- it's a 5-year contract.

       9      The ASPCA has the contract.

      10             So, as you can imagine, I'm going to be

      11      forbidden to work on that in-particular program,

      12      pursuant to our ethics laws.

      13             But, it's certainly -- there is no law

      14      disallowing me to promote it.

      15             It's a wonderful program.  It's a -- over

      16      five years, a multi-million-dollar program.

      17             And, during the off-session, when I have my

      18      wits about me, we'll be out, especially in upstate

      19      New York, promoting the availability of that money

      20      to shelters and to municipalities.

      21             [Applause.]

      22             SENATOR GRIFFO:  Thank you.

      23             BILL KETZER:  Thank you.

      24             SENATOR VALESKY:  Yeah, I just want to follow

      25      up, briefly, on Senator Griffo's first question.







                                                                   74
       1             You're certainly in a unique perspective,

       2      having worked in the legislature, worked at the

       3      department, and now doing the work that you're doing

       4      now.

       5             The previous guests here, who certainly

       6      suggested strongly, that we look at, in effect,

       7      moving the entire body of law from the

       8      Agriculture and Markets Law to the penal law.

       9             Notwithstanding the legislative challenges of

      10      moving an entire set of law that has been written

      11      over several years, and I understand that, but, from

      12      your perspective, would that have a significant

      13      positive impact, to look at something as dramatic

      14      as --

      15             BILL KETZER:  Based on -- I thought the

      16      testimony that preceded me was quite valuable.

      17             You know, based on those, based on that

      18      factual experience, I would say it certainly

      19      warrants attention.

      20             The ASPCA has supported that idea, in

      21      concept, for many, many years.  But, it wasn't only

      22      until recently, where someone like Mr. Painter in

      23      Nassau County, really kind of took the bull by the

      24      horns, so to speak, and really tried to -- it's not

      25      necessarily -- it's not -- well, it's not a bill you







                                                                   75
       1      can write on a cocktail napkin, you know.

       2             It's -- you really have to go through this.

       3      And, I've have written bills on cocktail napkins, so

       4      I can say that.

       5                  [Laughter.]

       6             BILL KETZER:  But, it really has to be done

       7      the right way.

       8             And as I believe I just mentioned, our humane

       9      law-enforcement division is actually reviewing that

      10      right now, because, clearly, the Senate means

      11      business, in terms of advancing the bill.

      12             I'm not quite sure whether where the Assembly

      13      is.

      14             But, at the same time, given the problems

      15      that boots-on-the-ground law enforcement has, and

      16      given the fact that, yes, it's very -- it's highly

      17      unlikely that a beat cop is carrying a copy of a

      18      McKinney's in his glove box, yeah, I think it

      19      warrants a lot of attention, sure.

      20             SENATOR VALESKY:  Thank you.

      21             SENATOR RITCHIE:  I would just like to thank

      22      you, and Jed, and the other two gentlemen, for your

      23      testimony today.

      24             BILL KETZER:  Thank you.

      25             SENATOR RITCHIE:  Certainly appreciate your







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       1      time.

       2             And I look forward to working with you and my

       3      colleagues here, to help to protect our pets, and to

       4      move this issue forward.

       5             So, while the public hearing is closed at

       6      this point, if there's anyone in the audience who

       7      would like to submit testimony for us to look at,

       8      have any questions, please feel free to contact our

       9      office, either in Watertown or in Albany.

      10             And thank you again for taking time out to

      11      come today.

      12             BILL KETZER:  Thank you, Senator.

      13                  [Applause.]

      14

      15                  (Whereupon, at approximately 3:50 p.m.,

      16        the public hearing, held before the New York State

      17        Senate Standing Committee on Agriculture,

      18        concluded.)

      19

      20                            ---oOo---

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25