Joint Legislative Public Hearing on 2018-2019 Executive Budget Proposal: Topic Higher Education - Testimonies

Hearing Event and Video:



 2  ----------------------------------------------------


 4             In the Matter of the
          2018-2019 EXECUTIVE BUDGET ON
 5               HIGHER EDUCATION
 6  ----------------------------------------------------

 7                           Hearing Room B
                             Legislative Office Building
 8                           Albany, New York
 9                           January 23, 2018
                             9:33 a.m.


12           Senator Catharine M. Young 
             Chair, Senate Finance Committee
             Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein
14           Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee

16           Senator Liz Krueger 
             Senate Finance Committee (RM)
             Assemblyman Robert Oaks
18           Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM)
19           Senator Diane Savino
             Vice Chair, Senate Finance Committee
             Assemblywoman Deborah J. Glick
21           Chair, Assembly Higher Education Committee
22           Senator Kenneth P. LaValle
             Chair, Senate Higher Education Committee
             Senator Toby Ann Stavisky


 1  2018-2019 Executive Budget
    Higher Education 
 2  1-23-18
 3  PRESENT:  (Continued)
 4           Assemblyman Marc Butler
 5           Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon 
 6           Assemblyman John T. McDonald III
 7           Assemblyman Jeffrion L. Aubry
 8           Assemblywoman Earlene Hooper
 9           Senator Susan Serino
10           Assemblywoman Barbara S. Lifton
11           Assemblywoman Patricia Fahy
12           Assemblywoman Rebecca Seawright
13           Assemblyman Al Stirpe
14           Senator Marisol Alcantara
15           Assemblywoman Catherine T. Nolan 
16           Assemblyman Michael J. Cusick
17           Senator James N. Tedisco
18           Assemblywoman Alicia Hyndman 
19           Senator Kathleen A. Marchione
20           Assemblyman David G. McDonough
21           Senator Kevin Parker
22           Assemblyman Félix W. Ortiz
23           Assemblywoman Rodneyse Bichotte
24           Senator Jamaal Bailey


 1  2018-2019 Executive Budget
    Higher Education 
 2  1-23-18
 3  PRESENT:  (Continued)
 4           Assemblyman Victor M. Pichardo
 5           Assemblyman William Colton
 7                   LIST OF SPEAKERS
 8                                     STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
 9  Kristina M. Johnson
    Chancellor                             9       20
    James Milliken 
11  Chancellor 
    City University of New York          128      144
    MaryEllen Elia 
13  Commissioner
    NYS Education Department             191      202
    Elsa M. Magee
15  Executive Vice President 
    NYS Higher Education
16   Services Corporation                234      239
17  Andrew Pallotta
    Executive Vice President 
18  NYSUT                                
19  Frederick Kowal 
20  United University Professions        
21  Barbara Bowen
22  PSC/CUNY                             259      274



 1  2018-2019 Executive Budget
    Higher Education
 2  1-23-18
 3                   LIST OF SPEAKERS, Cont. 
 4                                    STATEMENT  QUESTIONS
 5  Mary Beth Labate
 6  Commission on Independent 
     Colleges and Universities 
 7   (CICU)                              300      309
 8  Smitha Varghese 
    Board Chair 
 9  Conner Wolf
    Legislative Policy Assoc.
10  Blair Horner
    Executive Director 
11  NYPIRG                               344      352
12  Donna Stelling-Gurnett
    President and CEO
13  Association of Proprietary 
     Colleges (APC)                      357      362
    Samuel Rowser
15  Executive Director
    Kevin Marken
16  Utica Director
    On Point for College                 364
    Marc J. Cohen
18  President
    Austin Ostro
19  Chief of Staff
    SUNY Student Assembly                369      378
    Francesca Royal 
21  Vice Chair, Fiscal Affairs
    Jasper Diaz
22  Delegate
    Wali Ullah
23  Delegate
    CUNY University Student 
24   Senate (CUNY USS)                   387      402


 1                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Good morning.  

 2                 Today we begin the first in a series 

 3          of hearings conducted by the joint fiscal 

 4          committees of the Legislature regarding the 

 5          Governor's proposed budget for fiscal year 

 6          2018-2019.  The hearings are conducted 

 7          pursuant to Article 7, Section 3 of the 

 8          Constitution, and Article 2, Sections 31 and 

 9          32A of the Legislative Law.  

10                 Today the Assembly Ways and Means 

11          Committee and the Senate Finance Committee 

12          will hear testimony concerning the Governor's 

13          budget proposal for higher education.

14                 I am Helene Weinstein, the chair of 

15          the Assembly Ways and Means Committee.  I 

16          will introduce the members from the Assembly, 

17          and Senator Young, chair of the Senate 

18          Finance Committee, will introduce members 

19          from the Senate.

20                 Before introducing our first witness, 

21          I'd like to remind all the witnesses 

22          testifying today to keep your statement 

23          within the allotted time limit so that 

24          everyone can be afforded the opportunity to 


 1          speak.

 2                 Witnesses are respectfully reminded 

 3          that the testimony which had been submitted 

 4          in writing will be made part of the record of 

 5          the hearing, so there's no reason to read 

 6          your testimony verbatim.  In fact, experience 

 7          has shown that the best presentations to the 

 8          committees are the ones that provide a 

 9          concise statement of the highlights of the 

10          testimony.  This will allow members' 

11          questions to be more focused and productive.

12                 The witnesses are also reminded that 

13          their remarks should be limited to the time 

14          remaining on the countdown clocks here in the 

15          hearing room.  It's very important in order 

16          to afford all of the many people here today 

17          seeking to testify an appropriate 

18          opportunity.

19                 Likewise, members' questions will be 

20          limited by the countdown clock, and we ask 

21          that members keep an eye on that clock.  I 

22          would like to thank everybody in advance for 

23          adhering to these guidelines.  

24                 And before I call our first witness, 


 1          I'd like to acknowledge the Assemblymembers 

 2          who are here.  Assemblymember Deborah Glick, 

 3          the chair of our Higher Education Committee; 

 4          Assemblywoman Hooper, our deputy speaker; 

 5          Assemblywoman Lipton; Assemblywoman 

 6          Seawright; Assemblywoman Nolan -- the women 

 7          are able to get up early today -- Assemblyman 

 8          Cusick, at the end; Assemblyman Aubry; 

 9          Assemblyman McDonald, Assemblywoman Hyndman; 

10          and Assemblyman Stirpe.

11                 I'd like to introduce Assemblyman Bob 

12          Oaks, our ranking member of Ways and Mains, 

13          to introduce the Republican members.

14                 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS:  At this point it's 

15          Dave McDonough, who is with us as well.

16                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So now I'd like 

17          to turn the mic over to Senator Young for 

18          some opening remarks and to introduce the 

19          members of the Senate.

20                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you very 

21          much, Chairman -- or Chairwoman, I should 

22          say, Weinstein.  

23                 And first of all I'd like to welcome 

24          you.  This is your first hearing in your new 


 1          role, and I think it's fantastic --

 2                 (Applause.)

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  I'd also like to 

 4          welcome everyone who is here today.  And they 

 5          like to say that the holidays are the most 

 6          wonderful time of the year.  Actually, in 

 7          New York State, budget time is the most 

 8          wonderful time of the year, right?  

 9                 (Laughter.)

10                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  And we're kicking 

11          it off today.  

12                 And so I look forward to the 

13          testimony.  We have many, many distinguished 

14          people who are here to give input on the 

15          Governor's budget proposal.  

16                 And I would also like to point out 

17          that I'm joined by my colleagues Senator Liz 

18          Krueger, who is ranking member on the Senate 

19          Finance Committee, and also Senator Toby 

20          Stavisky, who is ranking member on the Higher 

21          Education Committee.

22                 So welcome, and we look forward to the 

23          testimony.

24                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So our first 


 1          witness is Kristina Johnson, chancellor of 

 2          the State University of New York.

 3                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you very 

 4          much.  It's a pleasure to be here.  I am 

 5          Dr. Kristina Johnson, the 13th chancellor of 

 6          the State University of New York.  And the 

 7          focus of my remarks will be about the budget 

 8          with regard to three areas:  Stabilization, 

 9          health and safety, and restoration.  

10                 I want to thank Chairpersons Young, 

11          Weinstein, LaValle, and Glick, members of the 

12          Senate and Assembly, and legislative staff 

13          for allowing me this opportunity to share our 

14          perspective on the Executive Budget.  

15                 I also want to acknowledge and thank 

16          Chairman Carl McCall, who is here today, and 

17          the entire SUNY Board of Trustees for their 

18          leadership and support.  

19                 I know that you are aware that SUNY is 

20          the largest comprehensive system of 

21          postsecondary education in the nation, with 

22          64 unique colleges and universities.  And you 

23          know that we serve nearly 1.3 million 

24          students, and that we stretch from New York 


 1          City and Long Island up to the North Country 

 2          and from the Hudson Valley to Buffalo and 

 3          Jamestown.  A SUNY institution is located 

 4          within 30 miles of almost every single 

 5          citizen in the State of New York.  

 6                 SUNY awards a third of all higher 

 7          education degrees in the state, and 

 8          two-thirds of all public degrees conferred in 

 9          the state.  And after four years, 73 percent 

10          of those graduates still work and live in the 

11          State of New York.  So our mission is crucial 

12          to the success and future of the state.  

13                 Our research and discovery results in 

14          about a billion dollars of externally funded, 

15          sponsored activity each year.  That means we 

16          have an enormous social and economic return 

17          on that investment.  In fact, a 2011 RIG 

18          study mentioned that for every $1 that's 

19          invested in SUNY, there's a return on 

20          investment of about $5. 

21                 When I came to New York, I was 

22          pleasantly surprised to learn how much state 

23          support SUNY receives, thanks to both the 

24          Governor and the Legislature.  In fact, 


 1          according to a recently released State Higher 

 2          Education Finance Report, New York State is 

 3          among the most generous states in recent 

 4          years, with year-to-year funding to higher 

 5          education in New York exceeding the national 

 6          average.  

 7                 We're extremely grateful for these 

 8          investments and what they mean to the system, 

 9          such as the continued maintenance of effort 

10          and predictable tuition program at our 

11          state-operated campuses, as well as essential 

12          indirect support for benefits and capital 

13          improvement costs included in the Executive 

14          Budget.  This support creates a solid 

15          foundation from which SUNY has grown and 

16          served the State of New York.  And building 

17          on this foundation, the Executive Budget 

18          includes proposals to increase access to 

19          higher education for students through the 

20          DREAM Act, provides further protections for 

21          students with loan debt, and continues the 

22          expansion of the Excelsior Scholarship 

23          Program.  

24                 And speaking of the Excelsior 


 1          Scholarship Program, I would be remiss if I 

 2          did not thank Governor Cuomo and the 

 3          Legislature for this first-of-a-kind free 

 4          tuition program for students attending SUNY 

 5          and CUNY.  Less than a year after its 

 6          inception, 23,000 students at SUNY and CUNY 

 7          are recipients of the Excelsior Scholarship.  

 8          And together, the Excelsior Scholarship 

 9          Program, the Tuition Assistance Program, and 

10          other state-supported scholarships enable 

11          50 percent of full-time students to attend 

12          college tuition-free.  

13                 To continue this growth and build on 

14          this investment, we intend to speak to you 

15          today on three areas of concern that pose a 

16          potential threat to SUNY's success.  Despite 

17          the challenging economic environment and 

18          fiscal constraints facing New York, it is 

19          important that we identify and confront any 

20          barriers to SUNY and the State of New York's 

21          future success.  Today we are categorizing 

22          these areas under stabilization, health and 

23          safety, and restoration.  

24                 Stabilization with regard to the 


 1          community colleges.  The community colleges' 

 2          funding model right now is a volume-based 

 3          model.  And what I mean by that, it's flat 

 4          funding per FTE.  However, at many of our 

 5          community colleges, such as Onondaga, the FTE 

 6          might be 7500, but the total number of 

 7          students coming through the doors is almost 

 8          double that.  And those students require the 

 9          same kind of services that everyone would 

10          require, and those are fixed costs.

11                 So what we're asking is to consider, 

12          as we go forward, to revise that funding 

13          mechanism.  Last year, SUNY convened a 

14          working group to explore national best 

15          practices for funding community colleges and 

16          to redesign the funding formula to provide 

17          stable support from the state.  Based on the 

18          newly released Executive Budget, the proposed 

19          formula that was included in our 2018-2019 

20          budget request adopted by the SUNY Board of 

21          Trustees would cost the community colleges an 

22          additional $24 million.  

23                 We realize that this one-year 

24          implementation is an extremely heavy lift in 


 1          a difficult year, but the importance of the 

 2          request to look at state funding for SUNY 

 3          community colleges cannot be overstated.  If 

 4          our community colleges are meant to continue 

 5          to be the innovative producers of the 

 6          educated workforce that the State of New York 

 7          needs, stability, predictability, and 

 8          investment should be on the forefront of our 

 9          efforts.  

10                 To that end, we look forward to 

11          working with you to explore this issue in 

12          pursuit of the direct state tax support and 

13          legislative changes needed for our community 

14          colleges to evolve their operations for new 

15          realities.  

16                 With regard to our state-operated 

17          campuses, we also ask you to consider 

18          implementing legislative changes that would 

19          enable state-operated campuses to increase 

20          operational efficiencies, capture new 

21          revenue, and lessen the impact of increasing 

22          costs.  Allowing, for example, consortium 

23          purchasing of services and limited 

24          differential tuition rates would help meet 


 1          these goals.  And with your support, we can 

 2          achieve those efficiencies and relieve the 

 3          strain on our operations.  

 4                 With regard to health and safety, 

 5          SUNY’s Academic Health Centers, including 

 6          hospitals at Upstate Medical University, 

 7          Downstate Medical Center, and Stony Brook 

 8          University, treat approximately 1.3 million 

 9          patients annually and educate approximately 

10          12,500 students for health, medical, and 

11          biomedical careers, all while operating under 

12          a continually changing healthcare landscape.  

13                 We are currently working with the 

14          Division of Budget to mitigate the 

15          operational impact of the proposed 

16          redirection of direct state tax support to 

17          state-supported bonded capital, to 

18          accommodate changes anticipated at the 

19          federal level.  We look forward to working 

20          with both the Legislature and the Executive 

21          to identify additional options to address 

22          funding shortfalls for all our hospitals.  

23                 In the meantime, in recognition of 

24          these challenges, I would ask that these 


 1          institutions be given the opportunity to 

 2          operate with the flexibility that businesses 

 3          require to be successful.  The first step on 

 4          this path is to address the application of 

 5          the 2 percent operating rule metric to their 

 6          operations.  These three safety net 

 7          hospitals, that also are the research and 

 8          development economic engines in our 

 9          communities, treat the state's most 

10          vulnerable populations and produce research 

11          of the highest quality. Our operations in 

12          this area should be treated similarly to 

13          health and hospital-related activities 

14          elsewhere in the state budget.  

15                 The second part of health and safety  

16          is the safety of our students, faculty and 

17          staff that work in our facilities.  SUNY's 

18          state-operated campuses account for 

19          40 percent of all state-owned buildings, and 

20          75 percent of the footprint of the 

21          state-owned real estate.

22                 We have an aging infrastructure.  

23          Thirty-five percent of SUNY's academic 

24          facilities at state-owned campuses are more 


 1          than 50 years old.  The Executive Budget's 

 2          investment of $350 million is appreciated, 

 3          and we look forward to working with you to 

 4          find additional avenues to address the 

 5          growing concern of critical maintenance for 

 6          our building stock.  

 7                 State-operated campuses face a growing 

 8          backlog of critical maintenance projects that 

 9          are needed to ensure the health and safety of 

10          our students, faculty, and staff.  They also 

11          provide opportunities to retrofit these 

12          facilities, thereby relieving the operating 

13          budget by saving energy on an annual basis.  

14                 Mental health tele-counseling.  Mental 

15          health and well-being is an increasingly 

16          critical issue in higher education.  

17          Nationally, one in three college students 

18          suffers from mental health issues.  Last 

19          year, thanks to the advocacy of the SUNY 

20          Student Assembly and your support, $300,000 

21          was allocated to provide access to expert 

22          mental health care to SUNY students.  The 

23          SUNY Student Tele-Counseling Network pilot 

24          program provides counseling services through 


 1          telehealth to students has been launched on 

 2          four campuses.  Restoring this funding will 

 3          ensure the continuation of these necessary 

 4          services.  

 5                 The last is restoration.  With our 

 6          opportunity programs, the proposed funding 

 7          level for the Educational Opportunity Program 

 8          would mean 765 fewer students would be 

 9          admitted to SUNY's program in the fall of 

10          2018, and direct aid awarded to students in 

11          the program would decrease by $500 per 

12          student.  

13                 We have many other programs that we 

14          would also like to see restored, and in the 

15          interests of time, I can talk about those 

16          during the Q&A.  But I want to make sure that 

17          I leave time for the last point, which is 

18          legislative changes.

19                 The SUNY Board of Trustees and I of 

20          course are happy to see New York's version of 

21          the DREAM Act and are supportive of its 

22          inclusion in the final enacted budget.  We're 

23          also supportive of the student loan 

24          provisions and believe they will expand upon 


 1          our initiatives to inform students and 

 2          families on loan debt.  We applaud the 

 3          Governor for addressing this issue.  

 4                 In terms of proposals for expansion of 

 5          the Inspector General’s purveyance, or the 

 6          establishment of a new chief procurement 

 7          officer, we look forward to continued 

 8          discussions on the need for such actions.  

 9          And the SUNY Board of Trustees has taken 

10          steps to address our procurement actions, as 

11          well as our foundations and affiliates.  

12                 Lastly, I'd like to express our hope 

13          that several of our proposed legislative 

14          changes will be included in the enacted 

15          budget.  These include items such as land 

16          lease legislation for a Ronald McDonald House 

17          to be built at Stony Brook University and a 

18          new escrow account to facilitate an 

19          affiliation between Eastern Long Island 

20          Hospital and Stony Brook University Hospital.  

21          We stand ready to provide additional 

22          information on any of these items.  

23                 It is a privilege to come before you 

24          on behalf of the State University of 


 1          New York, and I look forward to meeting and 

 2          working with you all during the upcoming 

 3          legislative session.  My colleagues and I are 

 4          here and happy to address any questions you 

 5          might have.  Thank you very much.  

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senator Young.

 7                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Yes.  We're very 

 8          pleased that we've been joined by 

 9          Senator Diane Savino, who is vice chair of 

10          the Senate Finance Committee, and also 

11          Chairman Ken LaValle, who is chair of the 

12          Higher Education Committee in the Senate.

13                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  In the Assembly 

14          we've been joined by Assemblywoman Fahy and 

15          Assemblywoman Bichotte.

16                 I'd like to turn to our chair, Deborah 

17          Glick, for some initial questioning.

18                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you very 

19          much, Madam Chair.

20                 Thank you very much, Chancellor.  

21          Welcome to your first round of budget 

22          hearings.

23                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you.

24                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  We're very 


 1          pleased to have you with us today and to have 

 2          you at the helm.

 3                 On the Excelsior Scholarship, we're 

 4          wondering how that's impacted SUNY and if you 

 5          could, if you don't have that information 

 6          now, we would very much like to have an 

 7          understanding of how many students came to 

 8          SUNY as a result, the raw number, which 

 9          campuses had the most increases, and we'd 

10          like to understand how these students have 

11          been absorbed into classes.  Have class sizes 

12          increased?  Have you had to provide 

13          additional course sections and dorms and 

14          other campus services, whether it's the 

15          health services or recreational facilities?  

16                 So if you have some idea now of how 

17          Excelsior has impacted SUNY in general, we'd 

18          like to hear that.  

19                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you very 

20          much for that question.  

21                 So as you know, the Excelsior program 

22          was established after the applications were 

23          submitted and then accepted last year.  

24          Having said that, as I mentioned earlier, 


 1          23,000 students, both at SUNY and CUNY, are 

 2          receiving Excelsior awards.  We do know this 

 3          year and issued a press release that 

 4          applications are up -- about what, 8 percent?

 5                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  (Nodding.)  

 6                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  So we are 

 7          expecting that we may see increases this 

 8          year, which would be very well received.  

 9                 I'm going to turn that over to my 

10          colleague Eileen McLoughlin, who's our CFO, 

11          to give some of the specifics, and we're also 

12          happy to provide more details.  

13                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So we certainly 

14          will provide more details as we continue to 

15          analyze the data.  

16                 But in direct answer to your question 

17          on issues of class size and capacity, before 

18          the Excelsior program was initiated, SUNY had 

19          looked at its capacity and we felt that we 

20          could absorb a 10 percent increase -- at a 

21          minimum increase of students at our 

22          state-operated campuses, and a lot more in 

23          our community colleges.  So at this point we 

24          are not concerned about capacity, but we 


 1          continue to monitor class size, monitor the 

 2          number of faculty we have to make advising 

 3          services we have available.  

 4                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  How much did you 

 5          say applications were up?

 6                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  For the 

 7          state-operated campuses they went up -- for 

 8          all of them, they went up 8 percent.  But 

 9          I'll give you the breakdown between -- we'll 

10          provide you with the breakdown between 

11          state-operated and community colleges.

12                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you.

13                 I appreciate your concern about the 

14          funding for community colleges.  Those have 

15          been -- it's been a model that has been in 

16          place for a very long time.  That there have 

17          been various counties that, struggling under 

18          a 2 percent cap, have expressed their concern 

19          about their ability to provide their share.  

20          And so I'm wondering whether there are 

21          specific campuses that are affected by a 

22          decrease in enrollment which is affecting 

23          their bottom line.  Are there -- and how many 

24          are there?


 1                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Sure.  There are 

 2          -- 27 of the 30 community colleges will be 

 3          receiving less funding this year than last 

 4          year under the current budget.  

 5                 And just to give an example, two 

 6          colleges that I know of, I mentioned 

 7          Onondaga, where roughly the number of 

 8          students to the FTE ratio is about two to 

 9          one.  So funding is based on FTE, but they 

10          have twice as many students.  So the same 

11          services have to be provided across double 

12          the number of students.

13                 At Monroe Community College, we have 

14          about 4500 students different, between the 

15          FTE and the number of students attending.  So 

16          it's about 9,000 students -- 9,000 FTE and 

17          about 13,000 students attending.  So you can 

18          see that just in those two examples there's a 

19          tremendous number of additional students 

20          relative to what the funding model is based 

21          on.

22                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Has there been 

23          any review of why there has been a 

24          decrease -- I mean, you don't think that 


 1          there's a decrease in enrollment, you think 

 2          that the issue is actually that there are 

 3          students who -- a large number of part-time 

 4          students.  Is that what the analysis shows?

 5                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I think that 

 6          there are -- certainly the enrollments are 

 7          going down in the community colleges, because 

 8          many of our community colleges are upstate 

 9          and the enrollment in the population is 

10          decreasing in terms of college-age students.  

11                 So I think my point I was trying to 

12          make is yes, the -- when the enrollments go 

13          down, the funding goes down if it's based on 

14          FTE.  But the number of students that are 

15          attending is larger than the base of the -- 

16          so the FTEs go down that we count.  And an 

17          FTE, a full-time-equivalent, means that they 

18          need to be taking at least, what, six -- like 

19          15 credits?  So you might have five students 

20          taking six credits, and that would be two 

21          FTE, but you need to provide the students 

22          with registration and advising and the 

23          classrooms and other activities that all the 

24          students can avail of if they are a student 


 1          that's registered for a class.  So that's 

 2          what I mean.  

 3                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Have you seen 

 4          students move from community colleges to 

 5          four-year colleges because now their families 

 6          can see them affording a four-year school 

 7          with an Excelsior Scholarship?  

 8                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Yes.

 9                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  And also just -- 

10          if you don't mind, in addition, you know, 

11          community colleges are more and more serving 

12          that adult population, so that the trend for 

13          these upstate community colleges will be to 

14          have more of that part-time student.  So 

15          that's another reason why we felt it was time 

16          to study that formula.

17                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I guess just to 

18          then clarify, the fixed costs stay the same 

19          even if the enrollment goes down.  So it's 

20          basically a total-volume-based model.  But 

21          you have fixed costs and then on top of that 

22          you have a very -- just to be clear.

23                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Right.  On the 

24          SUNY hospitals, I know that you referenced 


 1          your discussions are continuing with the 

 2          Division of Budget, the fourth branch of 

 3          government.  But what have the hospitals been 

 4          saying to you about a shift from operating 

 5          support to capital?  

 6                 There's no question, I'm sure, that 

 7          again those facilities also need upgrades and 

 8          so forth.  But at a time when there is this 

 9          rather cataclysmic change in the way in which 

10          we are funding or not funding healthcare, how 

11          is it possible for those hospitals that are 

12          so critical in their areas to actually absorb 

13          what is essentially an elimination of 

14          operating aid?  

15                 We have over time seen a decrease, and 

16          both the Senate and Assembly have repeatedly 

17          restored those cuts.  But this is an 

18          elimination.  And what do you foresee would 

19          be the effect if in fact we are not able to 

20          restore that operating aid?

21                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Well -- and as 

22          you mentioned, we are working to restore the 

23          operating piece.  At some point you run out 

24          of the capital that you can actually put to 


 1          work.  And so I think that's where we are 

 2          concerned, is given the decrease from the 

 3          federal side as well with the disproportional 

 4          hospital payments, as well as the operating, 

 5          it would be very difficult, very challenging 

 6          for the hospitals to continue to operate.

 7                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  On the 

 8          Excelsior, the students who were receiving 

 9          aid for TAP were under 80,000.  That was the 

10          top award.  Or family income, I should say.

11                 Now that it has jumped to -- and this 

12          year will jump up to 110, is SUNY seeing a 

13          change in its demographics?  Are we seeing a 

14          shift in who will be going to SUNY and who we 

15          will be serving?

16                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I think it's a 

17          very good question.  I'd like to get back to 

18          you on that.  I'd have to look at some of the 

19          details.  I don't know -- I mean, if you have 

20          any --

21                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  I think we need 

22          to get back to you.  It is a good question.  

23          We have to do that analysis.

24                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I think that 


 1          makes sense, especially -- we're focusing on 

 2          enrollment just because of the -- it drives 

 3          everything that we do.  So we'll get back to 

 4          you on those details.

 5                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Yeah, I think if 

 6          there is an 8 percent increase in 

 7          applications, that would be a place to look 

 8          at who -- what is the application base and 

 9          how has that changed over the last number of 

10          years.  And I appreciate you getting back to 

11          us.

12                 I am now out of time; I may come back 

13          for some additional questions after everyone 

14          else.  Thank you.

15                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

16                 Senator Young?

17                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you, 

18          Assemblywoman.

19                 So we've been joined by Senator Sue 

20          Serino.  Welcome.

21                 SENATOR SERINO:  Good morning.

22                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Chancellor, I've 

23          got a few questions.  And again, 

24          congratulations on your new role.  And we had 


 1          the opportunity to meet a few months ago.  

 2          And so SUNY is extraordinarily important to 

 3          the state's economic engine and the fact that 

 4          they provide so many wonderful opportunities, 

 5          certainly very important in my district.  

 6                 I did want to start -- and there's 

 7          been a little bit of discussion about your 

 8          new model for community colleges, which I'm 

 9          very happy to hear that you're looking to 

10          stabilize the community colleges, because 

11          they need that kind of help.  The question I 

12          have is, are you basically talking about 

13          block granting?  And how would that work, if 

14          you are, and who makes the decision about how 

15          funds are distributed?  

16                 You reference several, for example, 

17          community colleges, very important ones in 

18          urban areas.  But I'm concerned about the 

19          rural areas also.

20                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Sure.  

21          Understood.  I'll respond to that and then 

22          see if Eileen wants to further make some 


24                 What we're asking for is to have a 


 1          similar funding model as at the 

 2          state-operated campuses so that we maintain 

 3          the support to the community colleges, like 

 4          the maintenance -- that they're part of the 

 5          maintenance of effort that we sustain like we 

 6          do at the state-operated campuses.

 7                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  So how would it 

 8          work?

 9                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So I think, you 

10          know, we're looking for predictability.  So 

11          we would set a base for each college that was 

12          at the current year, our 2017-2018 base.  

13          That would allow us to have a predictability 

14          in our planning and be able to continue to 

15          invest in those high-need, high-cost programs 

16          like nursing and engineering, which is where 

17          the greatest demand is.  So that would be the 

18          focus of the formula.

19                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  But how would the 

20          formula work or -- I'm really not clear as to 

21          how you would determine what the funding 

22          levels would be.

23                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  I didn't quite 

24          hear you; there's a noise out there.  So --


 1                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Maybe somebody 

 2          could close that door.

 3                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  I think we would 

 4          keep the funding level the same for each 

 5          campus as it currently resides -- or is.  And 

 6          then where there's need for investments on 

 7          those high-need programs, we'd target those.

 8                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  So you referenced 

 9          things like nursing, which we have nursing 

10          programs --

11                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Right.

12                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Okay, thank you for 

13          that.

14                 I know that the Governor actually has 

15          proposed to centralize SUNY community college 

16          workforce development programs, and those 

17          have been very instrumental.  I know that 

18          across the state the workforce development is 

19          a huge issue.  And I know that those programs 

20          have worked in conjunction with local 

21          employers to make sure that we had a highly 

22          qualified, highly skilled workforce.

23                 So maybe you could discuss a little 

24          bit are there any improvements that could be 


 1          made to the contract courses, SUNY apprentice 

 2          and job linkage programs at SUNY's community 

 3          colleges?  Because the concern is if you're 

 4          centralizing them, turning them over to the 

 5          Regional Economic Development Council 

 6          control, actually are there things in the 

 7          works to enhance those programs or not?

 8                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  I think the -- I 

 9          don't know if centralizing the workforce 

10          development programs would necessarily be 

11          hurtful.  I would think that SUNY would be 

12          participating in those decisions as those 

13          awards are made.  

14                 We have done some of that at SUNY 

15          ourselves, in which we've taken that money 

16          and used a competitive process to determine 

17          where the best investment would be.

18                 So I think -- I see this as really 

19          just working with the regional councils, 

20          which many of our presidents also serve on 

21          those councils, to really make the right 

22          decisions.

23                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I think six of 

24          the 10 regional councils are cochaired by our 


 1          presidents in their communities.

 2                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  So you don't 

 3          foresee any enhancements, it's just a shared 

 4          responsibility of how the funds are disbursed 

 5          now under the Governor's model?

 6                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  I think there's 

 7          an opportunity for enhancements, sharing it.

 8                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  

 9                 Another question I had has to do with 

10          collectively bargained salary increases.  So 

11          although collectively bargained salary 

12          increases will cost the system additional 

13          money this year, the Governor does not 

14          include any funding for that.  I'm not sure 

15          exactly what the amount is.  I think it's 

16          around $94 million, if that's correct.  

17                 But how will these increases be paid 

18          for if there's no funding included in the 

19          budget?  Because I know you talk about the 

20          investment in education, and the Legislature 

21          strongly believes in that, and we have 

22          stepped up.  But I also know that all the 

23          SUNY campuses are under fiscal stress right 

24          now, and lack of resources, and oftentimes 


 1          those costs are just passed along to the 

 2          students.

 3                 So I'm just curious because it really 

 4          stood out that there wasn't any funding that 

 5          was outlined in the budget.

 6                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you very 

 7          much for that question.

 8                 We're working right now with the 

 9          presidents of the individual campuses and 

10          also across SUNY to find synergies and 

11          efficiencies in order to respond to the 

12          difficult economic climate that we have in 

13          the State of New York and with this 

14          particular budget.

15                 I also would note that we don't have 

16          yet a contract, and so therefore we don't 

17          have exactly what is going to be the impact.  

18          So I think until we have that contract, we 

19          won't know what the impact is going to be.  

20          But we are anticipating that this is a 

21          difficult economic climate and we're trying 

22          to be as efficient as we can with our 

23          resources in order to serve the state.

24                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  You talk about 


 1          contracts not being settled.  What's the 

 2          current status of those discussions?

 3                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I think they're 

 4          still in negotiation.

 5                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  You anticipate that 

 6          they'll be settled this year?  

 7                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I'm not sure.

 8                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  So if they are 

 9          settled and we don't have money in the 

10          budget, then how will those costs be paid by 

11          the campuses?  

12                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Well, we're 

13          working with the campuses right now to 

14          identify opportunities.  And I think, when I 

15          think about it, there are resources that we 

16          will need to find efficiencies with.  

17                 Now, whether we use those to do -- you 

18          know, whether they're used to do the 

19          collective bargaining or used to invest in 

20          building, I think those are the tradeoffs 

21          we're going to have to make once we know what 

22          the amounts are going to be and once we know 

23          what our savings can be.

24                 So we're certainly going to anticipate 


 1          that it is a tough economic climate, that we 

 2          want to do our part as part of SUNY in order 

 3          to help the state.

 4                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  And I think that 

 5          if those contracts do get settled, we would 

 6          anticipate having additional conversations 

 7          with the Governor and Division of Budget.  

 8          Contracts can include a pay bill.

 9                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Okay.  So the 

10          concern, though, is driving up costs for 

11          students or having the colleges just have to 

12          eat those costs and having to cut programs or 

13          making other changes that aren't optimal.

14                 One of the other things I wanted to 

15          ask about has to do with SUNY capital 

16          appropriations.  So do you feel that the 

17          level of capital funding in the Executive 

18          Budget is sufficient?

19                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  As you know, 

20          right now there's $350 million in the budget 

21          for capital funding.  And we're hoping that 

22          that will be restored as part of the 

23          restoration to the 550, which is what we had 

24          last year.  As I mentioned, most of our 


 1          buildings on average are at least 47 years 

 2          old, and they're in need of critical 

 3          maintenance.  So we're hopeful that the 

 4          funding would be restored.

 5                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Do you think that 

 6          $350 million is sufficient to cover the 

 7          needs?

 8                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  From what our 

 9          study is -- and we have Bob Haelen here, who 

10          heads up our construction fund who can 

11          comment further.  But our study would show 

12          that we have a backlog of about $4 billion 

13          over five years, which is why we requested 

14          $800 million in the budget.  

15                 But maybe, Bob, you want to comment 

16          further on that.

17                 VICE CHANCELLOR HAELEN:  Just given 

18          our size and age and complexity of our 

19          facilities, there's a tremendous capital need 

20          across the entire system.  And, you know, the 

21          data that we have been looking at and looking 

22          at how quickly we are aging and decaying, and 

23          coupled with our existing backlog, it would 

24          suggest that we need an order of magnitude of 


 1          about $800 million a year to keep our 

 2          facilities in a state of good repair.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  So there's quite a 

 4          gap there, then.  

 5                 Okay, thank you very much.  That's all 

 6          I have.

 7                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 8                 We've been joined by Assemblywoman 

 9          Fahy and Assemblyman Ortiz and Crystal 

10          Peoples-Stokes sitting at the far end.

11                 And our next questioner is Deputy 

12          Speaker Hooper.

13                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HOOPER:  Good morning.  

14                 I don't have a question, but I would 

15          like to make a statement -- I beg your 

16          pardon?   

17                 (Comments off the record.)

18                 I'll start again.  I would like to 

19          first welcome new Chancellor Johnson.  

20                 But I would like to make a statement 

21          more than a question in reference to what has 

22          been happening in Nassau County, the Nassau 

23          County Community College.  

24                 The college was being challenged this 


 1          past year by the middle schools in reference 

 2          to reaccrediting the school as for 14 issues 

 3          that they found outstanding.  And I'm very 

 4          delighted that the college has now been 

 5          granted the reaccreditation.  And this is a 

 6          very good thing because Nassau Community 

 7          College and the survival of this school, 

 8          which is a premier educational institution -- 

 9          it is a major employer in all of Long Island 

10          in every aspect of employment.  And the loss 

11          of that institution, aside from educating the 

12          students, it would have an impact on the 

13          vendors, the employees, the professionals, 

14          and everyone and all of us who utilize those 

15          services.

16                 But I want to also point out that the 

17          Nassau Community College needed to raise its 

18          Hispanic population up to 25 percent, but 

19          they did not have enough funds to do the 

20          necessary advertising.  And the state was 

21          able to provide them with the funds.  And 

22          because they received those funds, they are 

23          now able -- up to 25 percent of the Hispanic 

24          students, which allows them to seek a 


 1          $3 million grant under Title III.  And that's 

 2          a good thing.

 3                 But I want to especially thank H.  

 4          Carl McCall, president, and I want to thank 

 5          Duncan-Poitier.  Because without their 

 6          assistance and without their working with me 

 7          in order to save this college, it could not 

 8          have been done.

 9                 So thank you, H. Carl McCall, and 

10          thank you for your staff, in assuring that 

11          this college survives.

12                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you.  

13                 May I just say that the funds that 

14          were provided for that particular program 

15          were from the Performance Investment Fund, so 

16          we deeply appreciate that support.  Thank 

17          you.  

18                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  

19                 Senator Savino.

20                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you, Senator 

21          Young.

22                 Chancellor, I want to turn your 

23          attention to a part of your testimony where 

24          you talked about several factors that you 


 1          wanted to bring to our attention -- 

 2          stabilization and the community colleges, 

 3          health and safety, and capital.  In the 

 4          health and safety portion of the testimony, 

 5          you mention the concern that you have about 

 6          the hospital system -- SUNY Upstate, SUNY 

 7          Downstate, and Stony Brook.  And you mention 

 8          briefly the effect of the 2 percent operating 

 9          rule and how it's affected you, but you don't 

10          really put forward a proposal as to what you 

11          would like.  

12                 And so in the Governor's budget there 

13          is obviously something of great concern 

14          because it talks about the elimination of the 

15          state subsidy of almost $80 million to the 

16          SUNY hospital systems, but that somehow a 

17          shift to capital will make up for that.  Can 

18          you speak to that and what your understanding 

19          of it is and whether or not you think that's 

20          a good idea?  

21                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I will, and then 

22          I'll turn also to Bob Megna, who is our chief 

23          operating officer, to further opine.

24                 I think the first thing you said is 


 1          about the 2 percent, the request.  So the 

 2          request for the hospitals involves the 

 3          $80 million, and it also involves asking for 

 4          flexibility in order to spend funds that are 

 5          generated, like from other revenues not from 

 6          the state, above the 2 percent.  So I want to 

 7          just be clear.  What we're asking for is 

 8          flexibility.  As other health aspects of the 

 9          budget have the flexibility to spend above 

10          the 2 percent, we're asking for the same 

11          thing.  

12                 With regard to the operating budget, 

13          I'll turn to Bob to comment on that.

14                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you.

15                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  I think, 

16          Senator, the theory behind the budget move 

17          was to provide flexibility that there was 

18          enough operating money spent at the hospitals 

19          that could be converted to capital.  I think 

20          in our conversations with them we have let 

21          them know that we think that would be a 

22          difficult thing to accomplish and it would 

23          have to be accomplished over a number of 

24          years, and have asked them to look at 


 1          different alternatives.  And they've been 

 2          very open to that.  So I'm hoping we can get 

 3          this resolved quickly.

 4                 SENATOR SAVINO:  So thank you for that 

 5          explanation.  So this is not the flexibility 

 6          that you're searching for, though, that 

 7          you --

 8                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  The flexibility 

 9          is the 2 percent spending cap and the other 

10          alternatives we're still exploring.

11                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Okay.  Thank you.

12                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you.

13                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

14          Fahy.

15                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Before that, I'd 

16          like to point out that we've been joined by 

17          Senator Kathy Marchione and Senator Jim 

18          Tedisco.  Welcome.

19                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you.  Thank 

20          you, Madam Chair.  Appreciate that.  

21                 And welcome, Chancellor.  It's a 

22          pleasure to have you and your team here.  And 

23          also very much appreciated your comments 

24          yesterday.  I found your vision with your 


 1          four themes very helpful, particularly the 

 2          innovators and entrepreneurs.  I'll be 

 3          stepping out shortly to talk about that on 

 4          net neutrality, actually.  

 5                 I also need the record to note that 

 6          I've got my purple on for UAlbany.  I would 

 7          be remiss if I didn't give my UAlbany 

 8          shout-out.

 9                 But I also -- just a couple of 

10          comments and one question.  Very interested 

11          in the capital budget, the $4 billion that we 

12          are waiting on or that there are needs for 

13          the capital budget.  I also want to put that 

14          plug in for the Engineering School at 

15          UAlbany, which I know is very important.  So 

16          we are very supportive of the needs on the 

17          capital.  

18                 Very supportive of the EOP.  And I was 

19          a little concerned to see that there were 

20          some cuts there.  As somebody who is 

21          first-generation American and 

22          first-generation college attendee and college 

23          graduate, while I did not benefit from the 

24          EOP program, I think it is essential that we 


 1          allow others to.  And it has been a raging 

 2          success at UAlbany, particularly with 

 3          retention rates, which I think is one of the 

 4          most critical methods that we can use in 

 5          terms of success of those type programs.

 6                 So that is very important.  The other 

 7          thing that I -- related to that is the 

 8          Excelsior program.  While I am very 

 9          supportive, my ongoing concern with that -- 

10          and again, I think the 23,000 new 

11          opportunities that's given to 23,000 students 

12          is extraordinary.  But quality is going to be 

13          essential, especially with retention rates, 

14          especially with those freshman classes.  I 

15          don't think we will have accomplished a 

16          lot if we go from 100 kids in a classroom to 

17          400 kids in a classroom.  So I want to be 

18          supportive that we keep up our quality while 

19          we continue to support the Excelsior program.

20                 And that brings me to my question on 

21          community colleges.  Heard your comments, and 

22          I really appreciate your thoughts.  Again, I 

23          wouldn't be here if it weren't for a 

24          community college in my home state.  So 


 1          affordability, accessibility is essential for 

 2          those of us who are first generation.  But 

 3          one issue, in addition to the costs that you 

 4          raised with the FTE -- one issue that has 

 5          caused tensions here, which I think is 

 6          unfortunate, is the charge-back rate.  And if 

 7          you have any updates on that this year, that 

 8          has caused some tensions with the counties.  

 9                 Our community college here is Hudson 

10          Valley, a terrific college.  It sits in 

11          Rensselaer County.  And Albany County pays 

12          what some would say is a higher charge-back 

13          rate.  And I think it causes unnecessary 

14          tensions.  Because of that, there's been an 

15          effort to address charge-back rates, which we 

16          have appreciated over the last couple of 

17          years.  

18                 I just wondered if you had a quick 

19          update.  Thank you.

20                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Sure.  Eileen?

21                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So the update is 

22          that we are scheduled to start in 2018-2019, 

23          so it's scheduled to start this fall, and it 

24          will be phased in over a five-year period.


 1                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Okay.  So will 

 2          that give any relief to Hudson Valley this 

 3          year?

 4                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Starting this 

 5          fall, it will start to give relief, but full 

 6          relief over a five-year period.

 7                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Okay.  All right.  

 8          Thank you.  

 9                 And thank you again, Chancellor.  I 

10          look forward to working with you on all of 

11          these issues.  I know time is pressing.  

12                 And thank you, Madam Chair.  I very 

13          much appreciate the opportunity.

14                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  May I just say 

15          one thing in response to what you said?  And 

16          I appreciate the comments on the charge-back.  

17                 Going back to retention and quality, 

18          that is of utmost importance to us, because 

19          we need to have quality programs, we need to 

20          make sure that the students do graduate and 

21          that we retain them.  

22                 So just a couple of programs that 

23          you've probably heard of, Quantway, Statway, 

24          and we're starting an English accelerator.  


 1          So these are the two gateway programs that 

 2          we're doing concurrent enrollment and 

 3          intervention, and it's working.  

 4                 So we will keep you apprised of that.  

 5          I'm really proud of what the system is doing 

 6          to attract more students and to graduate more 

 7          students.

 8                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Much appreciated.  

 9          Thank you again, Chancellor.

10                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  

11                 Senator LaValle.

12                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Good to see you 

13          again, Chancellor.

14                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Good to see you 

15          too, Senator.

16                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  This is your first 

17          rite of spring or whatever.

18                 I have a concern with the maintenance 

19          of effort.  How are you going to be handling 

20          that?

21                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Well, as you 

22          know, right now we have both maintenance of 

23          effort and predictable tuition.  The enhanced 

24          maintenance of effort, which would include, 


 1          in addition, collective bargaining and other 

 2          activities, we're waiting to see what the 

 3          negotiations bring and what the impact would 

 4          be.  And anticipating those, we're looking at 

 5          working with the individual campus presidents 

 6          as well as looking across SUNY to see where 

 7          we can create savings and efficiencies that 

 8          we can address it.  Once we know what the 

 9          impact is, we're hoping to have further 

10          conversations with regard to the opportunity 

11          to address that.

12                 We appreciate it's a very difficult 

13          economic environment that we're in and it's a 

14          tight budget, so we're trying to do our part.

15                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Chair Glick and I 

16          have not only once, but twice, passed 

17          legislation that has been vetoed by the 

18          Governor.  And while we haven't spoken, we're 

19          committed to trying to do something about 

20          this.  Because as you talk to campus 

21          presidents and so forth, they may put a good 

22          happy face on their comments to you, but I'm 

23          not sure that -- we need to address that 

24          issue, and we need your help in order to do 


 1          that.

 2                 Just rolling to capital, I have 

 3          colleagues that are very concerned about we 

 4          have engineering schools that need to be 

 5          replaced, one at $100 million, the other at 

 6          $75 million.  Senator Akshar has been focused 

 7          and been very diligent, as the Binghamton 

 8          campus, on School of Pharmacy.  So maybe you 

 9          could tell me where we are in addressing just 

10          those three projects.

11                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Sure.  Bob, would 

12          you like to take that one on the three 

13          specifics?  

14                 VICE CHANCELLOR HAELEN:  So you had 

15          engineering, pharmacy --

16                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Pharmacy at 

17          Binghamton and UB and Stony Brook engineering 

18          schools.

19                 VICE CHANCELLOR HAELEN:  So we had a 

20          variety of capital needs across the system, 

21          and you're picking out what we would consider 

22          some -- what we would consider the more 

23          complex buildings, more expensive buildings, 

24          and hence, you know, your price tags of 


 1          $50 million, $75 million.

 2                 The School of Pharmacy at Binghamton 

 3          is well under construction.  That project is 

 4          ahead of schedule.  I don't have the exact 

 5          completion date, but that is progressing 

 6          quite nicely.  

 7                 With UB, you know, we have a 

 8          variety -- engineering is growing, right?  

 9          And they're doing their best to accommodate 

10          the engineering program within the existing 

11          facilities, but there still is some concerns 

12          there and some additional funding is needed 

13          for those facilities.  We did complete a 

14          brand-new School of Engineering at UB.  So 

15          we've accommodated quite a bit of the program 

16          growth before it occurred, but they're still 

17          growing and there's still a need there.

18                 With Stony Brook, you know, again, a 

19          great deal of need is on that campus.  You 

20          picked out one program, but there are several 

21          other programs -- chemistry, the lecture 

22          hall, the fine arts center, school of 

23          business.  There's a lot of competing 

24          priorities.  And, you know, we have to do our 


 1          best to allocate what precious funds we do 

 2          have to address those programs and the 

 3          facilities that accommodate those programs.

 4                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  The issue at Poly, I 

 5          have a member on my committee, his name is 

 6          Senator Griffo, who has concerns.  What do I 

 7          tell Senator Griffo, he's worrying too much?

 8                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  Senator, I 

 9          would never tell anyone they're worrying too 

10          much.  It's -- I think pretty dramatic steps 

11          have been taken to reform activities at Poly, 

12          both with respect to the not-for-profits 

13          Fuller Road and Fort Schuyler and with 

14          respect to the operation of the university at 

15          the campus.  

16                 I think folks are working very 

17          diligently.  The interim president I think  

18          is doing a wonderful job at trying to 

19          reorganize and efficiently put back in place 

20          the academic programs at Poly.  And I think 

21          the economic development programs are now 

22          being run through a very transparent and open 

23          process subject to open meeting laws and 

24          subject to procurement laws that are very 


 1          similar to those of the State of New York.  

 2                 So I think we're making progress 

 3          towards addressing those worries.

 4                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Does the interim 

 5          president live on the grounds of Poly?

 6                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  I believe 

 7          he spends his time between both the Utica and 

 8          the Poly campuses.

 9                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Yeah.  Yeah.

10                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Is there any hope 

11          that -- I think Senator Griffo has concerns 

12          that presidents should be there full-time.  

13          Is there any chance of that happening, 

14          Chancellor?  

15                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  So in thinking 

16          about Poly, I want to step back for a moment 

17          and just say I -- obviously it predated my 

18          chancellorship, but I'm very aware of the 

19          technology, being an electrical and optical 

20          engineer, of the quality of the work that's 

21          going on there on the academic side.  And I 

22          think it's something that is extraordinary.  

23          The 5-nanometer transistor that was developed 

24          this last summer is 16,000 times smaller than 


 1          the diameter of a human hair.  This is going 

 2          to revolutionize our chip industry, it's 

 3          going to potentially revolutionize Internet 

 4          routers and switches.  

 5                 What we need to do is continue to 

 6          build on that excellence with the integrated 

 7          photonic AIM program that we have with 

 8          Rochester.  So I see that the research 

 9          trajectory, the research and academic agenda 

10          is very bright.  

11                 The president right now, Bahgat 

12          Sammakia, is terrific.  He is an interim.  He 

13          is there full-time.  He would like to return 

14          to his previous life, although I think he'd 

15          be an extraordinary permanent president.

16                 So we're in the process of -- first, 

17          we have -- the Board of Trustees has approved 

18          a loan to Poly, subject to my approval of the 

19          budget.  We're very close to that.  We're 

20          then, as Mr. Megna said, we're actually 

21          working through the restructuring.  And then 

22          the next step will be looking at the 

23          permanent academic structure of those 

24          campuses.  So it's a work in progress.  I 


 1          think we're making very, very good progress, 

 2          and I think the future is very bright for it.  

 3          Thousands of jobs are being created, and I 

 4          think thousands more will be created.

 5                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  If we could find 

 6          some time, maybe sit down with Senator 

 7          Griffo --

 8                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  That would be 

 9          great.  That would be great.

10                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  He's been through a 

11          lot of ups and downs.  So I would appreciate 

12          that.

13                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Certainly.

14                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Just going back to 

15          the buildings on the Stony Brook campus, I 

16          think their number-one priority, although 

17          they have many things, I think President 

18          Stanley has made it clear that the School of 

19          Engineering is the number-one priority.

20                 VICE CHANCELLOR HAELEN:  I would 

21          agree.

22                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  If I could just 

23          say one little thing about Stony Brook in the 

24          context of the capital budget.  It is 


 1          something I mentioned yesterday in the State 

 2          of the University System address.  

 3                 One of the many things that Stony 

 4          Brook has done that are definitely worth 

 5          noting is the investment of $5.7 million -- 

 6          thank you for the support -- to invest in 

 7          retrofitting and energy efficiency on those 

 8          buildings.  It will save $832,000 a year, 

 9          which is a payback of less than seven years.  

10          That's the value of that capital investment, 

11          is to be able to invest in something that's 

12          going to give you a payback of over 

13          14 percent a year.  After seven years, that 

14          800,000 will accrue every year.  

15                 If we can take that at scale across 

16          the SUNY campuses, we believe we can save the 

17          operating budget of each and every campus.  

18          And that's one of the reasons that we asked 

19          for the capital investment we did, along with 

20          an $80 million energy retrofit fund.  So that 

21          when we're doing the critical maintenance, 

22          that's the most cost-effective time for us to 

23          also do the energy efficiency and save those 

24          individual campuses money.


 1                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Okay.  I'm just 

 2          going to make one final comment.  I know both 

 3          Chair Glick and I have, on two occasions, 

 4          asked the Executive for a five-year capital 

 5          plan.  There are many needs.  There's not 

 6          only the critical maintenance, but we need to 

 7          move forward on buildings.  I know I have 

 8          members chasing after me to try and have help 

 9          on that.  So I think it's important if you 

10          can, with us, lobby the Executive so that we 

11          have a five-year capital plan.

12                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

13          Lifton.

14                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON:  Thank you.  

15                 Good morning, Chancellor, and 

16          welcome --

17                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you.

18                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON:  -- to your new 

19          very important position as the head of our 

20          wonderful State University.  Which I am a 

21          graduate of, and many of my colleagues are, 

22          you no doubt know.  I'm a proud alum of SUNY 

23          Geneseo, the daughter of a professor at 

24          Geneseo as well, so I got a double hit here.


 1                 So your answer on the last question 

 2          was part of my question to you about the 

 3          energy retrofits.  I was very glad to hear 

 4          you talking about that.  I'm sure you know 

 5          that many New Yorkers are very concerned 

 6          about the growing problem of climate change 

 7          and understand that, you know, buildings are 

 8          a really important piece of that.  And the 

 9          ability to build green buildings and retrofit 

10          old buildings is a very important, valuable 

11          way to help bring down the demand for energy 

12          and therefore the release of greenhouse 

13          gases.  So I'm very glad to hear you 

14          emphasizing that and talking about the 

15          economic benefits, obviously, as well.

16                 So my question was going to be I 

17          assume you're doing -- you've done some sort 

18          of assessment on that at the campus level --

19                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Yes.

20                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON:  -- and you've 

21          just cited some data.  So you have the data 

22          on --

23                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Yes, we do.

24                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON:  -- on the costs 


 1          and the benefits already ready to go.  

 2                 Do campuses currently have the 

 3          discretion, with their capital money, to make 

 4          those decisions?  Or does it call for action 

 5          from Albany -- from SUNY Central or from 

 6          Albany in terms of broadening that or making 

 7          sure that that happens in a sensible way?  

 8                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  You know, I think 

 9          one of the things I said yesterday in the 

10          State of the University System address is 

11          that I really see the vision of SUNY to be 

12          that hybrid organizational model where you 

13          enable the network and the local campuses to 

14          act and really do what they know best with 

15          their knowledge and mission, at the same time 

16          you coordinate.  

17                 And I think one of the ways that we do 

18          that brilliantly is the work that Bob Haelen 

19          does as head of the Construction Fund.  So 

20          I'm going to ask him to comment on one of 

21          specifics of your question.

22                 But I think that we do coordinate and 

23          prioritize the application of our capital 

24          construction fund.  And what we've found 


 1          out -- and this is working with Rocky 

 2          Mountain Institute, we did a charrette this 

 3          fall with Bob's group and some of the campus 

 4          leaders in sustainability -- is that it's 

 5          exactly when you do the critical 

 6          maintenance -- and it makes sense -- that you 

 7          do the retrofit.

 8                 So, you know, we're responsible for 

 9          about 40 percent of compliance with Executive 

10          Order 166, and we take that responsibility 

11          very seriously.  And we're pretty excited 

12          about doing that.  And so as a result, we've 

13          signed an MOU with NYSERDA, and they are 

14          agreeing to cofund an energy manager at each 

15          eligible campus or region to help us identify 

16          both the low-hanging fruit and get that 

17          done -- where you have payback maybe within a 

18          couple of years, and campuses can see that.  

19                 When you think about what Stony Brook 

20          was able to accomplish, it did take 

21          $5.7 million, and that's a lot of money.  

22          They do get the $832,000-a-year payback, 

23          which is great, and save almost 4,000 tons of 

24          CO2, to your point.  So we are trying to get 


 1          a grip on our carbon emissions.  

 2                 The question that has really plagued 

 3          energy efficiency throughout the country is 

 4          the question, if you've heard this, of the 

 5          $20 bill.  And what that means is if you can 

 6          save all this money, it's like $20 bills on 

 7          the street.  Why don't people pick them up?  

 8          Why don't we do energy efficiency at scale?  

 9                 And what I realized by thinking about 

10          this after the charrette that Bob hosted, and 

11          the workshop with RMI, it's because it's not 

12          a $20 bill in one place at one time.  It is a 

13          line of little pennies or dimes or nickels, 

14          and you have to go along and pick each one 

15          up.  And after a while, you don't want to do 

16          that.  And so therefore it's not the ability 

17          to put all that money up front and be patient 

18          and wait for the payback.  Because, one, you 

19          don't have it and, two, you don't have the 

20          time to go and pick them all up.  

21                 And that's why we propose to coinvest, 

22          when we're doing these capital improvements, 

23          a small fund -- and it's about 10 percent.  

24          And we got numbers from Rocky Mountain 


 1          Institute.  So who is Rocky Mountain 

 2          Institute?  They celebrated their 35th 

 3          anniversary.  They did the Empire State 

 4          retrofit.  They saved the Empire State 

 5          Building $3.4 million a year on a $10 million 

 6          energy efficiency.  So that's a payback of 

 7          less than three years, or about three years.  

 8          That's what we want to do.  And we want to do 

 9          that at scale.

10                 And so I know I said I'd ask Bob to 

11          answer, and I haven't really let him.  So 

12          would you like to say something, Bob?

13                 (Laughter.)

14                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON:  Do I get any of 

15          this time back -- no, it's wonderful, I'm 

16          really glad to hear this.

17                 VICE CHANCELLOR HAELEN:  There's many 

18          ways that the campuses approach energy 

19          efficiency.  First of all, we've come quite a 

20          ways in monitoring our energy use.  There's 

21          metering in all our buildings.  We know which 

22          ones are energy-intensive, which are not.  

23                 We also have a variety of programs 

24          available through the state, through NYPA and 


 1          NYSERDA.  The campuses work directly with 

 2          those organizations, and they've done a whole 

 3          range of energy-saving initiatives -- LED 

 4          lighting, for example, interior and exterior 

 5          lighting.  So there are some great programs 

 6          out there.  

 7                 And then when it comes to the capital 

 8          program, our approach is to work 

 9          collaboratively with the campus, let's 

10          identify which project is a high priority, 

11          which needs a lot of critical maintenance 

12          investment.  And when we're going to approach 

13          that design, we're going to design to a 

14          minimum of a LEED Silver standard.  All 

15          right?  So you're already achieving quite a 

16          bit of energy savings through that process.  

17          And we exceed energy code on every one of our 

18          projects.  So we want to continue that effort 

19          and even go a lot further with our energy 

20          savings.  

21                 But it is definitely a collaborative 

22          process with the campus.  It's their home, 

23          they've got to help us decide what's the next 

24          project to do.


 1                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LIFTON:  So I'm out of 

 2          time, but another time I'll ask you about 

 3          full-time versus adjunct faculty and where we 

 4          are on our SUNY campuses, a very important 

 5          topic as well.  Thank you, Chancellor.

 6                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you.  

 7                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  We've been joined by 

 8          Senator Alcantara.  

 9                 Our next speaker is Senator Stavisky.

10                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.  And 

11          welcome, Chancellor.  

12                 A quick follow-up on the Excelsior 

13          scholarship.  You said that there's been an 

14          increase of 8 percent in terms of 

15          applications.  Has there been any tracking of 

16          both the completion of the 30 credits and any 

17          impact on their GPA amongst the applicants 

18          for the Excelsior scholarship?  

19                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  It might be too 

20          early on the GPA because we just have that 

21          first semester and I know the grades are in.  

22          But I think we have some information with 

23          regard to the 30-credit completion.  I think 

24          Patty Thompson is here with that.  Or do you 


 1          know?

 2                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  I think it's 

 3          a -- We did see like an 11 percent increase 

 4          in students taking the 15 credits.  We're 

 5          still, you know, in the second semester, 

 6          so --

 7                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  So it's working.

 8                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So I think 

 9          preliminarily it's working, yes.

10                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.  

11                 Let me ask the perennial question that 

12          I ask every chancellor, and that is the 

13          question of full-time faculty compared to the 

14          part-time or adjuncts.  What's happening to 

15          the ratio, and what is the percentage and 

16          what's the trend?

17                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Right.  This is 

18          an area that's very much a passion of mine.  

19          And so when I think about full-time faculty, 

20          we -- and I'm going to ask Eileen to pull up 

21          the percentage if you have it.  But I think 

22          it's something like 40 percent of our faculty 

23          are adjuncts or part-time.  We'll get you the 

24          exact number.  


 1                 But it's a large percentage, and this 

 2          is a concern to me.  I would -- I really want 

 3          to invest in more full-time faculty.  I think 

 4          that one of the things that we're going to be 

 5          seeing with 40 percent of our faculty of or 

 6          near retirement age -- so right now about 200 

 7          faculty retire a year from the SUNY system.  

 8          But if you've got anywhere from between a 

 9          third to 40 percent that could retire 

10          tomorrow, this is something we've got to get 

11          ready for, because that's going to double 

12          that amount.

13                 And so one of the things that I'd like 

14          to see is that we really put an effort into 

15          raising endowed chairs and graduate 

16          fellowships and the kinds of things that 

17          attract the faculty members to come to SUNY 

18          and to get the very best academic talent so 

19          we can continue to build on the quality of 

20          our existing outstanding faculty.  

21                 And I'd like to bring them on sooner 

22          rather than later so they can learn from the 

23          distinguished faculty before we lose that 

24          institutional knowledge.  So we're looking at 


 1          many ways to either build partnerships, to 

 2          raise our philanthropic sights in order to 

 3          make those kinds of investments.

 4                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  The 40 percent you 

 5          say is full-time faculty, approximately.  

 6          Does that include the Research Foundation?

 7                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Yeah, I'm not 

 8          sure that it's -- I believe, and I'm trying 

 9          to remember these numbers.  We'll get you the 

10          exact numbers.  I think it's 40 percent of 

11          our faculty are part-time, but I might be -- 

12          that might be -- 

13                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  If you would get me 

14          that, I'd appreciate it.  And secondly, 

15          whether that includes --

16                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  That might be a 

17          little high.  We'll text somebody and get you 

18          the number real quick.  I used to have it off 

19          the top of my head, and it's just one of 

20          those numbers that went out.

21                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Does that include 

22          Research Foundation faculty, people who may 

23          be assigned as researchers whom they're 

24          counting as full-time faculty?    


 1                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  If they are 

 2          faculty --

 3                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  If you'd just get 

 4          me the --

 5                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  We'll get you the 

 6          numbers.  But then it would include faculty 

 7          that are research faculty if they're 

 8          full-time.  But we'll get those numbers.

 9                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  One other question 

10          involving the SUNY charter schools.  

11          Originally it was suggested that the 

12          prospective teachers have a minimum number of 

13          hours.  Now it's up to, I think, 100.  Can 

14          you tell me what's happening, how that's 

15          trending? 

16                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I think it might 

17          be too early to tell how it's trending per 

18          se.  But we -- as you know, we charter 

19          through the Charter Schools Institute about 

20          187 schools right now.  I think we've shut 

21          down 19.  Those are roughly the numbers.  

22          I'll verify the numbers.

23                 So I think the thing that I'd like to 

24          say is that we're committed to quality, we're 


 1          committed to making sure that we provide 

 2          quality.  And if the schools aren't 

 3          performing to that, we will shut them down.

 4                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  That's not my 

 5          question.  My question is the lack of 

 6          classroom-contact hours by the teachers.  

 7          That has been a problem.  When I was a -- I 

 8          did my student teaching upstate, and I spent 

 9          a whole semester in a junior high school.  A 

10          lot of contact hours with the students.  To 

11          me, that's irreplaceable for training 

12          purposes.  You can't learn in a classroom as 

13          much as you can learn teaching, you know, 

14          actual kids.  

15                 Would you get back to me with the 

16          information --

17                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I will absolutely 

18          get back to you, yup.

19                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  -- on the training 

20          for the teachers?  Because a child needs a 

21          good teacher, period.

22                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you.  

23          Understood.  We'll get back to you.

24                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  One last quick 


 1          question.  What are you spending in terms of 

 2          remediation for kids who are not prepared to 

 3          take classes?

 4                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Well, there's two 

 5          things that we're doing.  One is the Carnegie 

 6          Institution's Quantway/Statway program.  And 

 7          so what that means is that there are two 

 8          gatekeeping classes that prevent our students 

 9          from graduating.  One is the math 

10          requirement, the other is English.  

11                 And so what we've done with 

12          Quantway/Statway, we've invested and we're 

13          expanding it now to over 20 of our campuses.  

14          We do concurrent enrollment with a class that 

15          provides some of the foundational mathematics 

16          as well as they take a stats class.  Then we 

17          have the -- concurrently they're enrolled in 

18          another class that gives them the foundation 

19          to understand some of the higher concepts in 

20          the stat class.

21                 What we've found with that -- and this 

22          is the statistics that I think is 

23          interesting -- is that in the past only 

24          25 percent of our students would pass, after 


 1          two semesters, a math course.  Now 

 2          75 percent, on this concurrent model, are 

 3          passing the first time.  Now we're extending 

 4          it also to the English accelerated course.  

 5                 So I think these are two of the things 

 6          that we're doing to support our students in 

 7          the classroom and getting them to graduation.

 8                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  And the amount, the 

 9          cost?

10                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So those 

11          programs that the chancellor is referring to 

12          are programs that are sort of improving our 

13          remedial instruction.  That investment is 

14          about 5 million.  But remedial instruction 

15          costs the system, if you look at courses that 

16          you could identify as remedial courses, it's 

17          probably closer to 60 million.  

18                 But I also wanted to say that the 

19          chancellor was correct, we do have 40 percent 

20          part-time adjunct faculty.

21                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.

22                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

23          We've been joined by Assemblywoman Jo Anne 

24          Butler.  Mr. Oaks?  


 1                 Excuse me, Assemblywoman Jo Anne 

 2          Simon.  I combined two members.

 3                 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS:  And we have been 

 4          joined by Assemblyman Mark Butler, who is the 

 5          ranking member on Higher Ed.

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Mr. Butler, 

 7          now, for some questions.

 8                 ASSEMBLYMAN BUTLER:  Thank you very 

 9          much.  And welcome, Chancellor.  

10                 First of all, my apologies.  I had a 

11          committee meeting, I got here a little bit 

12          late, so I hope I'm not covering ground 

13          that's already been addressed.  

14                 It seems to me, at its most 

15          fundamental level, many of the questions 

16          we're asking revolve around money and 

17          funding.  We all know we're facing a serious 

18          deficit this year with the state, and we also 

19          know of the Governor's penchant for 

20          consolidations and shared services and those 

21          kinds of arrangements as shared services.

22                 Now, I'm new in this position but I 

23          had a sense a few years ago that there was an 

24          effort to look at shared services, shared 


 1          staffing, shared programs, perhaps even going 

 2          back and forth between campuses between 

 3          programs.  I know in that very prestigious 

 4          school up north, SUNY Potsdam and Canton had 

 5          an arrangement.  And it seemed to me -- and I 

 6          haven't been paying full attention, but it 

 7          seemed to me that maybe that effort had kind 

 8          of tapered off a little.  I wonder if you 

 9          could tell me, has that effort been ongoing?  

10                 And considering our financial 

11          situation this year, do you foresee that 

12          possibly even as part of this budget 

13          discussion we're going to be talking about 

14          that on some of these SUNY campuses, 

15          particularly community college campuses?

16                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So that effort 

17          is ongoing.  We had set ourselves a goal of 

18          reaching 100 million of identified savings, 

19          and we've reached that goal.  And we continue 

20          to have a continuation annually of savings.  

21                 The areas that we target are shared 

22          procurement in a lot of IT contracts.  We 

23          have shared procurement in managed print and 

24          travel and all series of commodities that we 


 1          purchase.  

 2                 So that is continuing, and we are 

 3          looking -- and we're also, in some of those 

 4          contracts and in some of these services we 

 5          will get, we actually have structured them so 

 6          the community colleges can participate.  An 

 7          example is the community colleges participate 

 8          in our Security Operations Center, which is 

 9          our cybersecurity center to protect our data.

10                 Some of the flexibility or the 

11          language we're looking for to allow us to do 

12          a combined consortium for services will kind 

13          of help us to continue to accelerate that a 

14          little bit more.  

15                 So thank you very much for the 

16          question.  We're always looking at how we can 

17          get savings.

18                 ASSEMBLYMAN BUTLER:  Well, thank you 

19          very much for that.  

20                 Again, I hope -- and this may have 

21          been asked earlier, but I know some of the 

22          community colleges are advocating for a 

23          change in the manner of funding away from the 

24          FTE and going to another system.  Is that 


 1          something that may be considered in this 

 2          budget cycle or in the very near future?  

 3                 It seems -- you know, from my cursory 

 4          reading it seems to make a great deal of 

 5          sense.  You have a lot of, in these community 

 6          colleges, a lot of remedial work that needs 

 7          to be done, a lot of students that need these 

 8          financial assistance programs and those kinds 

 9          of things.  And I think perhaps our community 

10          colleges need a little touchup.  I think they 

11          haven't been given the full consideration 

12          that they warrant.  They do a great job.

13                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  This is something 

14          we would like for you to consider and for the 

15          Executive to consider in this budget year.  

16          And the reason why is that it's a bit of a 

17          two-part story at the community college.  

18                 You have certain fixed costs, about 

19          80 percent are fixed, and then you have the 

20          variable costs.  And as the enrollment 

21          declines, you start to -- where the 

22          enrollment declines, the funding is based on 

23          enrollment, so it's based on volume.  But the 

24          costs are based on -- the majority are fixed.  


 1          So then you run into a place where we are 

 2          asking for a, if you will, a 

 3          maintenance-of-effort-type approach to the 

 4          community college so that they can continue 

 5          to be the gems that they are in their local 

 6          communities.

 7                 ASSEMBLYMAN BUTLER:  Okay.  Well, I 

 8          know at Herkimer College they have an 

 9          additional expense, they have to buy more and 

10          more cabinets for all the medals and trophies 

11          they win in national championships.  

12                 (Laughter.)

13                 ASSEMBLYMAN BUTLER:  But I thank you 

14          for your time.  I appreciate it.

15                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you.

16                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

17                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Senator Marchione.

18                 SENATOR MARCHIONE:   Thank you.  Hi, 

19          Chancellor.  Good morning.  Thank you for 

20          being here.  

21                 And I know a question was just asked 

22          on community colleges, but I want to weigh in 

23          as well.  I have a couple of community 

24          colleges in my district.  One of them is 


 1          Columbia-Greene, and I have much conversation 

 2          with President Campion.  And exactly what 

 3          you're saying is how can each of them -- he 

 4          has said to me it's actually a perfect storm, 

 5          because colleges work countercyclical to the 

 6          economy, and when jobs are plentiful, people 

 7          are working.  And with unemployment low -- 

 8          which are all good things -- the reality 

 9          means fewer students to the colleges.  

10                 And this is really very serious to us.  

11          Certainly colleges are meant to teach, but 

12          they are also a hub in the community.  And in 

13          Columbia County, much goes on in education 

14          outside of the students.  I'm having a heroin 

15          forum there at the end of February to help 

16          the community type of things.  I have my 

17          Golden Gathering, which is a services-based 

18          program, in October where over 13,000 seniors 

19          come for flu shots and services and education 

20          on what's offered to them.  

21                 Our community colleges are vital in 

22          our districts.  And, you know, I've heard 

23          what you have said.  So you can comment if 

24          you care to.  But as Senator Griffo is 


 1          worried, I'm very worried over our community 

 2          colleges.

 3                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Well, thank you 

 4          very much.  I think, considering it, I would 

 5          agree with what you said.  Forty percent of 

 6          the students that attend community colleges 

 7          are adults.  And when the economy is better 

 8          and they're full-time working, they reduce 

 9          the amount of credits they take.  So then you 

10          have to have many students make up that 

11          one-time full-time-equivalent person of which 

12          the funding basis is based on.  

13                 So it definitely is countercyclical.  

14          They're definitely very important to our 

15          communities.  And I think the other thing is 

16          many of our community colleges are taking on 

17          the burden of the high-need, high-cost 

18          programs in order to retrain individuals for 

19          the high-tech -- you know, the future of 

20          work.  It's the labs that are really 

21          expensive.  And I've been at a few places 

22          that have opened up new advanced industrial 

23          manufacturing centers.  And they're 

24          beautiful, they're necessary, they train our 


 1          workforce for the future, but they're more 

 2          expensive than a regular classroom.  

 3                 So I think we need to be mindful of 

 4          the mix of not only the classes we're 

 5          teaching, the number of students and their 

 6          demographics as well.  But it is, as you 

 7          said, a perfect -- potentially a perfect 

 8          storm.

 9                 SENATOR MARCHIONE:  I have just one 

10          further question, and just really for my own 

11          information.  Do you stream a lot of your 

12          classes across your campuses?  I mean, do you 

13          find that best-practice teacher who is just 

14          best in their field and stream those classes?  

15          I mean, streaming is such a technology.  

16          There are churches in our area that have one 

17          pastor, and he's amazing, and they stream to 

18          their sister churches.  Are you using that 

19          technology?

20                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Senator, we are, 

21          and I think it's actually a lovely idea.  We 

22          have 524 online degree programs and thousands 

23          of online classes.  

24                 I think the opportunity -- and we've 


 1          been discussing this with the Board of 

 2          Trustees -- is sort of a digital badging and 

 3          microcredentialing where you can take that 

 4          professor who may know force fields better 

 5          than anybody else in the world, and you take 

 6          that particular class from that professor at 

 7          that university, and another class from 

 8          another professor to augment, and you create 

 9          sort of a digital badge of knowledge that you 

10          can actually put on your resume, and people 

11          can click on that badge and actually see what 

12          you've taken.  And that's really where this 

13          whole program is going.  I'm proud that SUNY 

14          is a leader in this area.  

15                 So thank you for that question.

16                 SENATOR MARCHIONE:  And that does mean 

17          that if I am a student on campus, you're 

18          using that technology on campus, as well as 

19          the student who's sitting at home -- you're 

20          using them both.  

21                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  That's right.  

22          That's right.  Exactly.

23                 SENATOR MARCHIONE:  Thank you very 

24          much.  I appreciate your comments.


 1                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 2                 Assemblyman Oaks.

 3                 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS:  Yes, Chancellor, 

 4          you talked a bit earlier in the questioning 

 5          and some response to it on the retention 

 6          issues and some of the programs you're 

 7          looking for that.  

 8                 Do we have some numbers comparatively 

 9          from year to year on how retention is going 

10          at SUNY?  I know your predecessor was 

11          obviously very interested in that as well.  

12          But just thinking through of success in the 

13          overall system, certainly attempting to raise 

14          those numbers is good for them, good for all 

15          of us.

16                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Absolutely.  We 

17          do have those numbers; I can provide them to 

18          you.  Let me just share, though, a couple of 

19          programs that are helping those numbers, and 

20          then Eileen will give you the exact numbers.  

21                 So we started a program at New Paltz, 

22          under the leadership of the president there, 

23          there are about a hundred students that ran 

24          into unforeseen nonacademic difficulties.  In 


 1          one case, it was the loss of a parent.  And 

 2          in another, a parent who was working two jobs 

 3          to put their daughters through college at 

 4          New Paltz, couldn't work two jobs because 

 5          they had to take care of their spouse.

 6                 So the campus put aside a small amount 

 7          of money and gave little microgrants to about 

 8          a hundred students.  Eighty-seven of them 

 9          came back to school and are on-track to 

10          graduate.  And when you look at the number of 

11          graduates per year and you look at the 

12          increase of 87 -- and I've done the numbers.  

13          It's a significant percentage -- well, when I 

14          say significant, it might be between 3 and 

15          4 percent increase in their graduation rate.

16                 So we've taken this example, and I 

17          think this is the power of SUNY, we went out 

18          and through the generosity of the Gerstner 

19          Foundation and the Heckscher Foundation for 

20          Children, we've received $600,000 in grants 

21          in order to pilot that same program now at 

22          seven different campuses.

23                 Again, small loans -- can't pay an 

24          electricity bill, don't have some of the 


 1          basics, gets a flat tire.  The sorts of 

 2          things that kids come across that even the 

 3          most dedicated student has to drop out.  So 

 4          once we pilot this across seven, we're going 

 5          to keep that data, or track it, and then our 

 6          goal is to pilot it across all the students.  

 7                 You know, one of the things that was 

 8          in the Governor's State of the State agenda 

 9          is a food pantry.  So we formed a task force 

10          in order to ensure that every single one of 

11          our campuses either has a food pantry or is 

12          affiliated with a food pantry so that food 

13          insecurity for our students is not a reason 

14          they don't complete their degree.  

15                 Now I hope I filibustered long enough 

16          to get the data on the actual numbers on how 

17          we're doing on retention.

18                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So when it comes 

19          to public systems, SUNY is only behind the UC 

20          system, the University of California system, 

21          in our performance.  

22                 But on average, SUNY is above the 

23          average.  Our six-year graduation rate is 

24          67 percent.  With public universities, the 


 1          six-year rate is 58 percent; with privates, 

 2          the six-year rate is, on average, 65 percent.  

 3          The industry standard is the six-year 

 4          graduation rate.  

 5                 On the four-year graduation rate, we 

 6          are still better, on average, than the 

 7          publics.  Our four-year graduate rate is 

 8          50.5 percent versus 34.1 percent for publics, 

 9          versus 52.5 percent on average for privates.  

10                 But of course we want to continue to 

11          invest in these programs because 

12          50.5 percent, even if you're above the 

13          average, is not good enough.

14                 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS:  Thank you.  

15                 One of the things in the budget, we 

16          found the Governor's proposal was 

17          $300 million to support projects to foster 

18          research and development and whatever.  Do we 

19          have any sense if SUNY or the private 

20          colleges are going to be able to tap into 

21          that?  

22                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I don't think 

23          that it's clear how those funds will be 

24          allocated.  But we certainly would like to be 


 1          part of anything that is going on in that 

 2          arena.

 3                 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS:  I'm sure.  And I 

 4          know there was a quick reference to some of 

 5          the compliance issues, and I know -- and just 

 6          oversight.  And I know Mr. Megna related that 

 7          you feel like you've made some progress in 

 8          that area.  I know the Governor proposes 

 9          requiring affiliated nonprofit organizations 

10          of SUNY to adopt written financial policies.  

11          And I'm just asking, are you confident that 

12          what he's proposed, that you will be able to 

13          comply with that, or what's negotiated?

14                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  Well, 

15          again, at the Poly facilities I think we've 

16          already adopted, you know, guidelines for the 

17          operation of the board and for the 

18          procurement of services that pretty much 

19          follow that already.  So I'm pretty confident 

20          we're --

21                 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS:  That you're maybe 

22          already in compliance with what the Governor 

23          said.

24                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  I think 


 1          that's right.

 2                 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS:  Thank you very 

 3          much.

 4                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  We've been joined by 

 5          Senator Bailey.  

 6                 And Senator Krueger.  

 7                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Good morning.  It's 

 8          still morning.

 9                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Good morning.

10                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Actually following 

11          up on the last questions about governance and 

12          management, has SUNY actually created new 

13          management and a transparency system for your 

14          affiliated organizations and foundations?  

15          And are they available to us?

16                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So in the spring 

17          of 2016, the SUNY Board of Trustees approved 

18          new guidelines for oversight of all of our 

19          foundations and campus-related entities that 

20          bring their standards up to the standard of 

21          the New York State Nonprofit Law of 2013.  It 

22          also allows SUNY to have complete access in 

23          terms of auditing and oversight on affiliate 

24          creation.  So they have tightened up those 


 1          policies.

 2                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  And are the reports 

 3          being done publicly available?

 4                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  The reports on 

 5          the audits when they're completed are 

 6          publicly available, yes.

 7                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Is there a schedule 

 8          for audits, or is it just a --

 9                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  I can provide 

10          that to you.

11                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Okay, thank you.

12                 And do you know how many, in total, 

13          SUNY has of affiliated organizations and 

14          foundations?

15                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  We can provide 

16          you with that number.

17                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  That would be great.  

18          I mean, are we talking 10, 75?  I don't know.

19                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  We can provide 

20          you with the list.  I'm going to say it's 30.  

21          But I can give you that number.

22                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Great.

23                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  And I'll give 

24          you that breakdown.


 1                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Thank you.

 2                 And the chancellor actually just 

 3          touched on it in answering another question, 

 4          the issue of food pantries available either, 

 5          on campuses or affiliated with, based on the 

 6          Governor's commitment to deal with hunger and 

 7          nutrition issues for young people.  

 8                 I'm wondering whether SUNY has a plan 

 9          to expand and assist your students to become 

10          eligible for the federal SNAP program.  The 

11          data shows that about 50 percent of 

12          low-income students in the CUNY and SUNY 

13          systems are not participating in SNAP because 

14          of the employment requirement for college 

15          students, but that with creative use of 

16          work-study and other employment-type 

17          activities related to being a college 

18          student, a much greater number of our 

19          students could draw down SNAP, which of 

20          course is 100 percent federal money 

21          specifically to buy food.

22                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  We'll look into 

23          that.  Thank you.

24                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  I appreciate that.  


 1          I urge the Governor to take on that challenge 

 2          as well.

 3                 When we allowed the tuition increase 

 4          from last year, it was explicitly to be used 

 5          to support faculty and student success 

 6          initiatives.  I know it's very early, it only 

 7          being January, in implementing this this 

 8          year, but do you have a sense of which 

 9          specific programs are being expanded and 

10          supported by the tuition increase?

11                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  We can get back 

12          to you on that.  I think that the increase is 

13          $200 per student.  So how much would that be 

14          altogether?

15                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  About 

16          20 million, based on enrollment.  It does 

17          vary by campus.

18                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  And it does vary 

19          by campus.  So let us think about that and 

20          get back to you on that.

21                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  So do you think 

22          it's -- I'm sorry, there's a TV camera I 

23          think talking to us by accident or something, 

24          talking to us. 


 1                 Do you think it's by campus, each 

 2          campus gets to determine how they're 

 3          investing this tuition increase for these 

 4          purposes?  Or is it a systemwide policy?

 5                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Each campus puts 

 6          a financial plan together for us, but the 

 7          tuition dollars are all focused on 

 8          instructional and advising needs.

 9                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Okay, I look forward 

10          to all this information.  Thank you.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

12          Rodneyse Bichotte.

13                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Yes, thank 

14          you.  

15                 Thank you, Chancellor, for being here, 

16          and congratulations on your new role.

17                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you.

18                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  I certainly 

19          look forward to working with you.  

20                 I must say that I am a proud product 

21          of the SUNY system.  I'm a graduate of SUNY 

22          Buffalo State College as well as SUNY 

23          University of Buffalo in both STEM programs, 

24          engineering and math, and a proud former 


 1          tutor of the math program in the Educational 

 2          Opportunity Program.

 3                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Ah, thank you.  

 4          Thank you for your service.

 5                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  So my 

 6          question actually revolves around the topics 

 7          and programs that made me a success story.  

 8          And first I want to start with the 

 9          Educational Opportunity Program.  

10                 I'm certainly deeply concerned that 

11          765 students will be impacted from being part 

12          of the program, as well as $10 million in 

13          cuts on the centers as well as the program.  

14          As mentioned, although I was not a member of 

15          EOP, I worked with the students.  I have a 

16          number of colleagues who are success stories 

17          who are doing wonderful things as a result of 

18          having the opportunity to excel.  And so I'm 

19          deeply concerned.  

20                 I'm also deeply concerned with the 

21          cuts in the Diversity Graduate Fellowship 

22          Program, as well as CSTEP, another program 

23          that I was part of and overall STEM.  So to 

24          me, it seems like programs that are helping 


 1          low-income students, minority students, and 

 2          pushing students towards science and 

 3          technology so that they can be better 

 4          prepared in the world, so that they can have 

 5          options in the workforce, are just being 

 6          disregarded.  

 7                 And I'm very concerned, and I'm hoping 

 8          that you have a different strategy in terms 

 9          of restoring those funds and actually 

10          increasing those funds.  

11                 Another question I have -- well, a 

12          comment.  Just -- community colleges just 

13          should be free.  I think community college 

14          should be free.  So I think we should think 

15          about the direction that we want to take in 

16          terms of finding a way to make community 

17          college free.  It would help the four-year 

18          institutions in their debt load.  

19                 DACA, as you know, on the federal 

20          level is under threat to being ended.  And I 

21          notice that you have the DREAM Act as a 

22          priority.  But how much of a priority will it 

23          be given the state of DACA on the federal 

24          level?  Students who are here who came into 


 1          the United States at a very young age, who 

 2          didn't have the decision to come or not, are 

 3          now growing up, and we've been pushing for 

 4          them to have an opportunity to afford to go 

 5          to college.  So we want to know what's going 

 6          on with that.  

 7                 And lastly, going back to your 

 8          Excelsior program, I noticed that you said 

 9          that 23 students at SUNY and CUNY are 

10          recipients of the Excelsior?

11                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  23,000.

12                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Sorry, 

13          23,000.  How many of those are SUNY?  And 

14          what percentage of the total SUNY body are 

15          receiving Excelsior scholarships?

16                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  If I'm correct on 

17          that, it's about 17,000 for SUNY?

18                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Right.

19                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  About 17,000.  So 

20          the split is about 17,000 -- so 6,000, in 

21          order to make up the 23,000.

22                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  So about 

23          6,000 students?

24                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  It's about 


 1          17,000.

 2                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Oh, 17,000 at 

 3          SUNY.  And what's the total SUNY population?

 4                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  It depends on how 

 5          you count.  But there's about 453,000 

 6          full-time -- you know, I think that that 

 7          would be the cohort you'd compare the 

 8          Excelsior to.  So it would be 17,000 out of 

 9          about 465,000.

10                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Okay.  Wow.

11                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  But half the 

12          SUNY population -- with all aid programs 

13          available, about 50 percent of SUNY students 

14          have free tuition.

15                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Say that 

16          again?

17                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Fifty percent of 

18          SUNY students have free tuition, based on all 

19          the programs that are available to them, in 

20          addition to Excelsior.

21                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  So that's a 

22          last-dollar program.

23                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Yes.

24                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  So if they 


 1          have a Pell or if they have a TAP or 

 2          whatever.  

 3                 But how many students who are not 

 4          receiving TAP and Pell and other assistive 

 5          programs of the 453 -- you said 50 percent of 

 6          the students who are receiving aid are 

 7          getting Excelsior.

 8                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So how many 

 9          students get Pell and TAP up to the cost of 

10          tuition so they do not qualify for the 

11          Excelsior, is that the question?

12                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Yes.  Yeah.

13                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  I think we'll 

14          have to get that data for you.  

15                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Okay.  I 

16          would like to get that, because the thing 

17          is -- the issue is --

18                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman, 

19          Assemblywoman, I'm sorry, we're going to move 

20          on to the next speaker.

21                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Okay, thank 

22          you.  

23                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  But I just want 

24          to remind members that if you have questions 


 1          that we don't have an opportunity to answer, 

 2          we'd be happy to -- I know our witnesses 

 3          would be happy to respond to questions that 

 4          the committee will send in writing.  So I'd 

 5          just have everybody keep that in mind.

 6                 Our next questioner?

 7                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Are there any other 

 8          Senators that have questions?

 9                 (No response.)

10                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Next, 

11          Assemblymember Cathy Nolan, chair of 

12          Education.

13                 ASSEMBLYMAN OAKS:  She's not here.

14                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  I think she's 

15          stretching her legs.  

16                 Assemblywoman Crystal Peoples-Stokes 

17          for a question.

18                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  Thank 

19          you.  And good morning, good afternoon, 

20          whatever time it is now.

21                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Good morning.


23          appreciate you -- (microphone off).  I'd just 

24          say that I'm encouraged and very much looking 


 1          forward to your tenure here because of your 

 2          background in business.  

 3                 I see the college and university 

 4          system as an economic driver in the community 

 5          I live in, and I believe in everybody else's 

 6          community as well, and also see it as the 

 7          creator of the future workforce.  And so I 

 8          think combining those two pieces, academics 

 9          and economics, you bring a value to our 

10          system that I surely look forward to seeing 

11          you further engage in.

12                 I just have two questions.  One is on 

13          the funding for existing programs.  How is 

14          that decided which existing programs will be 

15          continued, will receive continued funding?  

16          Is there some sort of metric that looks at 

17          outcomes?  Do we know that we're getting a 

18          good result as a result of the funding for, 

19          say, the Teacher Opportunity Corps?  

20                 That's just an example of one.  

21          There's also resources for the National Board 

22          of Professional Teaching Standards 

23          certification grant, high-needs nursing 

24          program, and actually opportunity programs.  


 1          Is there anyone looking at outcomes for these 

 2          initiatives?

 3                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Yeah, there is.  

 4          The provost's office at SUNY system has those 

 5          outcomes.  We can provide that data.  The 

 6          provost's office has that data, and we can 

 7          provide that to you.

 8                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  And if I may 

 9          amplify that just for a minute.

10                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Yup.


12          you're saying you do have data on the 

13          outcomes for these initiatives that are being 

14          re-funded in the budget.

15                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Yeah.  Yup.


17          secondly, on the Teacher Opportunity Corps, 

18          is there any amount of that grant or those 

19          dollars that are going to be used to look at 

20          diversity in the classroom?  I know there's 

21          been a study by the Education Trust Fund.  

22          There's probably any number of other studies, 

23          as well as the My Brother's Keeper commission 

24          last year went across the state last year 


 1          talking to young men, and it was always 

 2          brought up that there is an issue with the 

 3          lack of diversity in the classroom.  So is 

 4          there any specificity with the Teacher 

 5          Opportunity Corps that looks at diversity in 

 6          the classroom?

 7                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  The Teacher 

 8          Opportunity Corps is a State Education 

 9          Department-managed program, not a 

10          SUNY-managed program.  But we do have 

11          diversity programs at SUNY that we invest in.  

12          I don't have the -- there's a recurring 

13          budget in the SUNY office plus a $3 million 

14          program that we have that funds proposals 

15          from our campuses to do diversity programs on 

16          their campuses.

17                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  I'm 

18          sorry, would you repeat that one more time?  

19          You said there's what?

20                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  We have a 

21          diversity office at SUNY System, and we have 

22          $3 million which we administer through a 

23          competitive grant program to support proposal 

24          programs at our campuses that support 


 1          diversity initiatives.  And we particularly 

 2          look for ones that we can scale across the 

 3          system.

 4                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  Okay.  

 5          Well, I appreciate that.

 6                 Is there a relationship between the 

 7          EOCs, which I'm noticing have been cut, and 

 8          community colleges?  It would seem that that 

 9          would be a natural stream or a natural 

10          pipeline towards EOC, community college, a 

11          four-year college, and so on.  So is there a 

12          connection between the two?  Are there 

13          regular conversations about how do we make 

14          this pipeline go smoothly?  And what are the 

15          numbers on that?

16                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  First of all, 

17          absolutely, there's a regular conversation 

18          going.  

19                 And we can do better.  I've visited 

20          some of the EOC as well as the community 

21          colleges in the regions.  They are working 

22          together.  In some places, for example, in 

23          Rochester, they're in the same buildings.  So 

24          they are very tightly connected.  I think we 


 1          can always do better and improve that.  

 2                 I did want to comment just on the 

 3          diversity program.  I know a few years ago 

 4          that at each campus we've established an 

 5          Office of Diversity and Inclusion Excellence.  

 6          So at each individual campus, we are working 

 7          on diversity as well as programs that Eileen 

 8          McLoughlin mentioned across the system.

 9                 Having said that, I think one of the 

10          areas that you pointed to -- and I would like 

11          to amplify, if I may -- is that the 

12          importance of role models, people in the 

13          classroom that look like the students in the 

14          demographics that we're teaching, so that 

15          they can look at that person and say, I too 

16          could be a professor or I too could be an 

17          engineer or I too could be a lawyer or a 

18          public servant or any particular area that 

19          they want to pursue.

20                 It turns out that our faculty is about 

21          5 to say 7 percent underrepresented minority 

22          faculty.  The high across the public 

23          institutions is probably as high as 15 

24          percent and as low as, you know, a few 


 1          percent.  We need to do better.  

 2                 And so one of the things that I'm 

 3          looking at as we invest in full-time faculty 

 4          is how do we diversify the faculty in the 

 5          classroom in order to be those role models 

 6          for our students and our citizens of the 

 7          State of New York.  

 8                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  Thank 

 9          you.

10                 SENATOR LaVALLE:  Senator Tedisco.

11                 SENATOR TEDISCO:  Thank you for your 

12          testimony, first of all.  

13                 I wasn't here -- I'm sorry I was a 

14          little bit late; I had a committee meeting.  

15          I don't know if you've talked about 

16          retention, staying in New York State for 

17          students or any research that's been done for 

18          those who graduate from our two-year colleges 

19          and our four-year schools and get degrees 

20          here.  And how are we doing on that?

21                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  So I can respond 

22          to that.  And we didn't talk about it, so 

23          thank you for the question.

24                 Four years after graduating from the 


 1          SUNY system, 73 percent of our graduates are 

 2          still living and working in the State of New 

 3          York.  So it's a pretty high percentage.

 4                 SENATOR TEDISCO:  Of all students who 

 5          graduate, two-year and four-year?  

 6                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  And that's 

 7          systemwide.  I think we can probably get you 

 8          the breakdown from four years to 

 9          state-operated to technical and to community 

10          colleges.  

11                 But across the whole system, 

12          73 percent of our students, once they 

13          graduate, four years later are still living 

14          and working in the State of New York.

15                 SENATOR TEDISCO:  And how long do they 

16          usually stay in the State of New York?

17                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  That's a good 

18          question.  I'll have to get back to you on 

19          that.  I know at least for four years.  I 

20          think that first year it's maybe around 

21          80 percent.

22                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  It's four 

23          years after graduation.

24                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Four years after 


 1          graduation.  And I think four years is an 

 2          important metric, because folks have always 

 3          told me that you put permanent roots down 

 4          after two years in a place.  So I think that 

 5          that's a -- it would be interesting to look 

 6          longer term.

 7                 SENATOR TEDISCO:  Yeah.  What would 

 8          you think of a concept of a -- let's say a 

 9          graduate of a two-year school, for the first 

10          five years we said up to $20,000 a year, you 

11          paid no taxes on for five years in a row?  

12          That would be a hundred thousand dollars.  If 

13          they made $50,000 a year, they'd still pay 

14          taxes on $30,000.  

15                 For four-year graduates here, we'd say 

16          for five years, you could make up to $50,000, 

17          you'd pay no taxes on that for five years.  

18          Because I agree with you, you said if you 

19          stay here for four, five or six years, you 

20          buy a house, you get a job, you build a 

21          business, you get married, you have roots, 

22          like you said, you're more than likely going 

23          to stay here.  

24                 Now, those are just some of the 


 1          numbers that I've been rolling around in my 

 2          head.  But, you know, we have the numbers man 

 3          over here.  I wondered, is any kind of 

 4          concept like that something that could even 

 5          make us better in terms of retaining 

 6          students?  Or is that something that is not 

 7          worthwhile looking at?

 8                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  Senator, I 

 9          think any ideas and incentives to keep people 

10          in this state are worth looking at.  I think 

11          I would want to talk to the tax folks about 

12          how effective they thought that would be.

13                 SENATOR TEDISCO:  Thank you.

14                 Did you have something?  

15                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  No, I just wanted 

16          to -- I was thinking.  You could tell.  You 

17          know, what I was considering is -- going back 

18          to some of the numbers that our CFO 

19          mentioned -- and that is retention is very 

20          critical.  So we lose -- even though we might 

21          be number two across the U.S. in system and 

22          be at a 65 percent six-year graduation rate, 

23          that still means a third of our students are 

24          not graduating.  


 1                 And so I think it's a question of 

 2          we've got to -- and we are; with some of the 

 3          targeted programs, we look at the reasons for 

 4          that.  And so some of it, as I mentioned 

 5          before, are other nonacademic issues.  One in 

 6          five women going to college are single moms.  

 7          So this is one of the reasons we feel very 

 8          strongly about supporting with childcare.  

 9                 I mean, there are some of the other 

10          issues -- the emergency funding program that 

11          we're piloting -- we're trying to get at the 

12          root of how can we retain as many of the 

13          other 35 percent who don't make it through in 

14          six years.  So that's what I was thinking of 

15          as you were looking and saying did you want 

16          to say something.  

17                 SENATOR TEDISCO:  Appreciate it.  

18          Thank you.

19                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

20          Nolan.

21                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NOLAN:  Thank you.  

22          Thank you.  Such a happy day -- (microphone 

23          dysfunction).  I have one of those loud 

24          voices -- how about that, better?  Okay, 


 1          thank you very much.  

 2                 It is such a very happy day to welcome 

 3          you, Chancellor, on a day when women lead and 

 4          that Helene Weinstein and Cathy Young have 

 5          really made history today.  I feel so happy 

 6          about it, I had to be here.  

 7                 I have the good fortune of chairing 

 8          the Education Committee, and love what I do.  

 9          I'm a happy SUNY mom, first-year SUNY mom, 

10          sitting with another happy SUNY mom.  

11                 I want to give a shout out to Nancy 

12          Zimpher, because she I think really did 

13          change SUNY's recruitment policy in the city.  

14          When I got to Albany, I always felt that was 

15          a problem, that they weren't recruiting in 

16          the city.  And I think now that you do.  

17                 I want to give a shout-out to 

18          Alfred -- which is not the school my kid goes 

19          to, but they're doing so much recruiting in 

20          schools in my district.  I'm very, very 

21          grateful to them for that.  

22                 But there's always that but, you know, 

23          that happens in these hearings, so this is my 

24          "but."  First of all, I'm happy Chancellor 


 1          McCall is here, because, Carl, Deborah and I 

 2          are still waiting for that meeting to talk 

 3          about the Charter School Institute.  We're 

 4          very unhappy.  The Assembly takes the issue 

 5          that they do not have the authority to do 

 6          what they did.  

 7                 So I don't want to saddle you, you're 

 8          new, some of this predates you.  But there's 

 9          a lot of concern.  And I'm so happy that 

10          Senator Stavisky brought it up.  So what I'd 

11          like to do is not go over the past, because 

12          that's on Carl, not on you.  

13                 (Laughter.)

14                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NOLAN:  But I'd like to 

15          have you talk a little bit about the teacher 

16          training programs.  Because we've heard so 

17          much talk -- and everyone loves those big 

18          muscular -- you know, the engineering and the 

19          pharmacy and the STEM.  Meanwhile, you are 

20          training more teachers than almost anyone in 

21          America.  But somehow -- and I can even argue 

22          it's because it's a female-dominated 

23          profession, but we won't say that today -- 

24          somehow the teacher training programs are -- 


 1          you know, they're there, and there's a lot of 

 2          people in them, but you never hear anybody 

 3          talk about them.  And so I'd like to hear a 

 4          little bit from you about what your 

 5          priorities are in this year's budget to 

 6          support outstanding teacher training programs 

 7          at SUNY schools.  Not undercut them with 

 8          crazy 100 hours is enough to be a teacher 

 9          nonsense.  We can't hold you for that, like I 

10          said.  But I have heard from just about every 

11          one of the people -- I hear from people who 

12          teach in every one of your teacher training 

13          programs, in real concern and panic at the 

14          watering down of teacher quality that your 

15          SUNY charter people did to that charter 

16          school program.  

17                 So what are you doing to support your 

18          existing programs?  And can you tell us a 

19          little bit about them?  Because not one word 

20          has been said today from you about the 

21          teacher training programs.  Everything is 

22          always about the things that cost a fortune.  

23          But the teacher training programs are about 

24          educating people for our children that I deal 


 1          with in the Education Committee, K-12, for 

 2          the future.  

 3                 So -- but we welcome you on your happy 

 4          day.  

 5                 (Laughter.)

 6                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Wow.  Thank you, 

 7          Assemblywoman.  I hear the passion in your 

 8          voice, just -- which I love.  And as you may 

 9          know, I'm also a teacher and I taught in the 

10          classroom for, oh, maybe 25 years as a 

11          professor, so I share that.  My family, five 

12          girls and two boys, all of them were teachers 

13          on the girls side, and the two boys lost 

14          their way and became lawyers.  I didn't 

15          really say that, did I?  Okay, anyway.  But 

16          I'm very passionate about teaching.  

17                 And so I wanted to share a little bit 

18          with what we've started to think about and 

19          do.  I mean, it's still early days; I'm five 

20          months into my term here.  I have met with 

21          all the deans of the education schools, I 

22          actually invited them in.  Not all were able 

23          to attend, of course.  And we sat down and we 

24          talked about it.  We talked about what does 


 1          it take to educate the teacher of the future, 

 2          what are the kind of skill sets.  

 3                 And this is something that the Faculty 

 4          Senate is very concerned about.  We had a 

 5          Faculty Senate meeting last Friday in Utica 

 6          that I attended, and one of the resolutions 

 7          was how do we define the liberal arts degree 

 8          of the 21st century.  So these are 

 9          conversations -- you first have to start to 

10          get to know what's going on before you make 

11          any particular change.  I'm very supportive, 

12          met with the deans, talked about the 

13          programs.  

14                 And some of the things we started to 

15          talk about, it started to kind of connect the 

16          dots, that you've got faculty members getting 

17          Ph.D.s and graduate degrees in the liberal 

18          arts who aren't able to get faculty 

19          positions.  And so I commented, can we 

20          prepare those Ph.D. students to teach in our 

21          K-12 programs?  And what would that look 

22          like?  

23                 So that's one area where we're trying 

24          to look at, how do we increase and continue 


 1          to train and better prepare our teachers.

 2                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NOLAN:  How much teacher 

 3          training programs do you have, and how many 

 4          students do you have in them?  

 5                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Let's see, we 

 6          have, what, 19 schools -- I think there are 

 7          19 deans, so it must be 19 schools of 

 8          education.  And as you said, we train and 

 9          educate the majority of the teachers in the 

10          State of New York.  

11                 Continuing on one of the things that I 

12          mentioned, I've also met with the Charter 

13          Institute.  And I said, can we get those two 

14          groups together to talk about what quality 

15          means and what we're doing together.  And so 

16          they are meeting now.  And that hadn't 

17          happened before.  So you take each step as we 

18          go along, and I'll look forward to -- well 

19          before next year, I'd love to get together 

20          with you individually and talk about what 

21          we're doing.  

22                 But these are the first couple of 

23          steps that I think are very important.  And 

24          so I think out of these conversations will 


 1          come creative ideas to further the 

 2          preparation of our teachers to be even more 

 3          successful in the classroom.  

 4                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 5                 Assemblyman Stirpe.

 6                 ASSEMBLYMAN STIRPE:  Good morning.

 7                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Good morning.

 8                 ASSEMBLYMAN STIRPE:  When we met back 

 9          in November, you gave a little presentation 

10          and you talked about one of your goals was to 

11          double the amount of research and development 

12          that flows through SUNY.  

13                 And, you know, you having been in that 

14          world a little bit in the past, do you have a 

15          specific plan of action of how to do that?  

16          Any organizations you know about that you're 

17          going to?  And how might that help SUNY in 

18          general during times of government financial 

19          stress?

20                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Well, thank you 

21          for that question.  And you're right, in 

22          November -- and I repeated it again yesterday 

23          at my State of the University System, 

24          broadened it a bit to talk about really not 


 1          just research in terms of external funded 

 2          research dollars, but really doubling our 

 3          scholarly work, our start-ups, our research, 

 4          our outreach and our engagement.  

 5                 And so I'm very passionate about that.  

 6          When anybody says double, you know, you ought 

 7          to ask how long is that going to take, right?  

 8          It could take 50 years, it could take one 

 9          year.  I've set a goal for the next decade to 

10          at least double.  

11                 And so then you look at -- in order to 

12          be successful, you need a strategy, which is 

13          what I think you're asking and where are you 

14          going to put those investments.  And so one 

15          of the areas that I believe that the State of 

16          New York and SUNY needs to be front-runner 

17          in -- and that's going to be in artificial 

18          intelligence and augmented intelligence, 

19          because that will affect every single 

20          industry in the State of New York.  

21                 Automation -- a lot has been said 

22          about the number of jobs that automation will 

23          disrupt and already has disrupted.  It's 

24          actually entire industries that will 


 1          disappear.  When you have 57 Fortune 500 

 2          countries that are headquartered in New York, 

 3          that's the future of the State of New York.  

 4                 So I think in terms of us being 

 5          targeted and strategic about where we place 

 6          our investments.  And so the major ones are 

 7          going to be education, healthcare, of course, 

 8          and it's also going to be understanding how 

 9          multidisciplinary and educated the students 

10          of the future and the workforce needs to be.  

11          So it's going to be liberal arts that 

12          understand how cognitive computing is going 

13          to impact the ability for them to be creative 

14          and successful, and how STEM students are 

15          going to need to have persuasive oral and 

16          written skills as well as a concept of 

17          history and politics and philosophy.  So it's 

18          a new way of thinking about education.  

19                 I think that these ideas are 

20          compelling.  They're not just mine, they're 

21          already being done throughout SUNY.  We are a 

22          leader in a lot of these areas.  So advanced 

23          materials -- it just came out in the paper 

24          that there's been over a thousand or 1100 


 1          patents in the Capital Region alone.  Seven 

 2          hundred are from Global Foundries and IBM 

 3          working in the facilities that created that 

 4          5-nanometer transistor.  

 5                 We've got to build on those.  We build 

 6          on those -- what people want to invest in is 

 7          not just an individual anymore, because they 

 8          understand that the problems are very 

 9          complicated and you need a team.  So we're 

10          going to build teams, and we're going to 

11          build on the teams we already have, and we're 

12          going to connect the dots.  

13                 So one of the strategies that we've 

14          put in place is that we've started these 

15          workshops across SUNY, all inclusive, invited 

16          people, we've done them in AI, we've done 

17          them in opioid abuse, and get the best 

18          researchers together to talk about where is 

19          the future going.  And then through these 

20          investment programs, we will seed money in 

21          order to get early data, because that's what 

22          makes our proposals then successful.  

23                 And then the last thing, I've met with 

24          the Distinguished Faculty.  We have a 


 1          thousand Distinguished Faculty members, and 

 2          over half of them have said they still want 

 3          to be active, they still want to help us.  So 

 4          I propose, well, why don't you help review 

 5          the proposals?  Because they'll be colleagues 

 6          like yourself.  And studies have shown that 

 7          when you have somebody review the proposal, 

 8          especially our Distinguished Faculty is more 

 9          than just somebody, the chances of getting 

10          that funded go up by a factor of two to four.

11                 So that's just one idea of what we're 

12          working with right now.  And so I'm pretty 

13          passionate, as you can tell, about this.  I 

14          think that it's going to help be that 

15          economic engine in the future.  And just 

16          remember, every dollar that's invested in 

17          SUNY has a return on investment of about $5, 

18          in addition to the social and economic return 

19          on investment.  So we can double our research 

20          and go from a billion to 2 billion in this 

21          next decade.  We're going to increase the 

22          number of jobs, the number of patents, the 

23          number of start-ups, the impact and the 

24          outreach in our communities.


 1                 ASSEMBLYMAN STIRPE:  Thank you.

 2                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

 3          Glick.

 4                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you very 

 5          much.  Just a few follow-ups.  

 6                 The area of student fees.  The cost of 

 7          going to school, most people understand it's 

 8          tuition, room and board.  But then there's 

 9          this entire area of student fees.  And that 

10          is generally not covered by -- it's certainly 

11          not covered by TAP.  

12                 And so I have two questions about 

13          that.  Are those set by individual campuses?  

14          And whether the system looks at it and 

15          whether what has been a growing trajectory of 

16          larger and larger -- is there any thought or 

17          consideration of across the system of either 

18          standardizing certain aspects of it or trying 

19          to figure out how to fold some of them into a 

20          tuition so that, for some students, that too 

21          would be covered by TAP? 

22                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I'll ask Eileen 

23          to give some of the details on that, but I 

24          will say that we are looking at it at the 


 1          system level.  

 2                 And maybe you can comment about how 

 3          the fees are set at the campuses and at the 

 4          system.

 5                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So the campuses 

 6          do not set fees on their own, they do come to 

 7          System for us to approve, and we do have a 

 8          process, which I can give you the details on 

 9          where they cannot increase those fees above 

10          what's called the HEPI index, which is the 

11          Higher Ed Price Index, without demonstrating 

12          need and support for the particular service 

13          they're trying to collect the fee for.  And 

14          part of that demonstration has to include 

15          student input, that the students want these 

16          services.  

17                 So we can share a very brief summary 

18          with you of what that process is.

19                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  That would be 

20          helpful.

21                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  I think, 

22          Assemblywoman, there's also an issue of 

23          uniformity -- you raised it -- across the 

24          campuses that probably, as part of that, 


 1          should be looked at; how we can kind of get 

 2          everyone on the same footing.  

 3                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  I look forward 

 4          to having a more detailed conversation on 

 5          that.  

 6                 First of all, let me say that I'm very 

 7          pleased to hear that you're committed to 

 8          doing more with renewables and retrofits that 

 9          are cleaner.  And obviously it's an enormous 

10          payback if we can do that.  It's not just 

11          payback in dollars, which we're always 

12          concerned about, but also in making the 

13          campuses cleaner and healthier, for them and 

14          the surrounding community.

15                 So at some point if we could get a 

16          little bit more of what your plan is or where 

17          you're targeting.  I don't expect that today.  

18          But I would like to understand where you're 

19          headed and to be somewhat certain that that 

20          is geographically balanced.  I know that 

21          Oswego did a tremendous job in their new 

22          science building, and that is a great model 

23          for the rest of SUNY.  So I'd like to 

24          understand more where that's headed on your 


 1          facilities.

 2                 VICE CHANCELLOR HAELEN:  Yeah, we can 

 3          get back to you on that.

 4                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Finally, I do 

 5          want to have a little bit more of a 

 6          conversation at some point about the theory 

 7          behind differential tuition.  

 8                 Fifty percent of your students are not 

 9          going to school with assistance.  And so I 

10          would not want to see a student in one 

11          school -- I know that this has been a 

12          long-standing issue, long before you arrived 

13          on the scene -- that the university centers 

14          have always felt that they have to support a 

15          tremendous overhead and a wide range of 

16          programs, and so they want to charge more.  

17          To some extent, they are charging a little 

18          bit more.  

19                 I don't know what you're thinking 

20          about in terms of how you would determine who 

21          would get to have a differential bump, but I 

22          would not want us to see students in the 

23          future decide that they cannot go to Buffalo 

24          because it's an extra few hundred dollars, 


 1          and they make their choices and we lose out 

 2          on perhaps somebody who could in fact be the 

 3          next Nobel Prize winner down the road because 

 4          for the want of a few hundred dollars.

 5                 Now, I did have a conversation with an 

 6          enormously wealthy human being who said, I 

 7          can't imagine that for $200 or $300, someone 

 8          would choose not to go to a particular 

 9          school.  And I said, Well, in your world that 

10          is true, but in the rest of the state where 

11          you need to see -- you know, $25,000 is a 

12          good salary in a lot of small towns.  And 

13          that I presume was, you know, like the fee at 

14          the golf course for membership.  

15                 So that is a concern that I have 

16          around that issue.

17                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  So thank you for 

18          your concern.  Where we really want to focus 

19          looking at differential tuition right now is 

20          in border states.  So our schools like 

21          Fredonia, who border some other type of 

22          states, to be able to charge more than the 

23          in-state tuition rate but a little bit less 

24          than our current out-of-state rate.  


 1                 We can get you the data on this, but 

 2          many New Yorkers leave the State of New York 

 3          to go to Pennsylvania or New Jersey or some 

 4          of our bordering states to get their 

 5          education there, because our neighboring 

 6          states are offering more competitive tuition 

 7          rates to them.

 8                 So we would like to be able to 

 9          position our border-state campuses in that 

10          market, as well as attract students into the 

11          State of New York, that's one.  

12                 And then the other area we're looking 

13          at is our graduate and professional master's 

14          programs.  So these are our professional 

15          master's programs where the return on 

16          investment for that individual student is 

17          pretty tremendous.  And we have some 

18          specialized graduate programs that really 

19          cost us more, so if we can have some level of 

20          differentiation on some of these specialized 

21          programs.

22                 To get back to your tuition and fees, 

23          I just wanted to also let you know that the 

24          average fee across the system is about 


 1          $2,000, and our tuition and fees in total is 

 2          still among the lowest in the nation.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 4                 And before we conclude your first 

 5          testimony before the joint budget committees, 

 6          I had two quick questions.  

 7                 In the Governor's proposed budget I 

 8          see that the funding for the community 

 9          college childcare centers, the SUNY community 

10          college childcare centers, is reduced by $1.1 

11          million.  And I was just wondering who 

12          utilizes the services.  Is there a reduction 

13          in the use of the services that would warrant 

14          a reduction in the dollars to support these 

15          centers?

16                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  I didn't quite 

17          get that question.

18                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  I apologize, 

19          Chairperson.  Oh, is it childcare, did you 

20          say?  

21                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  The childcare 

22          centers.  The Executive Budget shows a 

23          $1.1 million reduction.

24                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  So as I mentioned 


 1          before, one in five women attending college 

 2          are single mothers.  So this will be 

 3          difficult for women that need childcare in 

 4          order to pursue advancement in terms of a 

 5          degree and also in terms of their life.

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  And would 

 7          additional support for the childcare centers 

 8          enable additional women with children to be 

 9          able to partake of the community college 

10          experience?

11                 SUNY CFO McLOUGHLIN:  Yeah, we can get 

12          that data to you, how much more children and 

13          parents we can serve if we got increased 

14          funding, and what the impact will be on the 

15          reduction.

16                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  And just -- I 

17          know you spoke about this change of dollars 

18          for the SUNY hospitals from operational to 

19          capital.  In your testimony you said you were 

20          working with the Division of Budget to 

21          mitigate the operational impact.  

22                 And I was just wondering what 

23          specifically your conversations have been 

24          around mitigating that negative impact.


 1                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Go ahead, Bob, if 

 2          you'd like to.

 3                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  I think, 

 4          Assemblywoman, there are alternative ways to 

 5          achieve the savings that I think would not 

 6          have an immediate or as devastating an impact 

 7          on the hospitals.  

 8                 And I think their belief was that, 

 9          again, this operating/capital substitution 

10          would not have an impact on the hospitals.  I 

11          think we believe that it would have a 

12          significant impact on the hospitals, and 

13          we're providing them three or four 

14          alternatives that they can look at to see if 

15          they work better.

16                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  And could you 

17          share, subsequent to the hearing, some 

18          additional information about the specific 

19          impact to each of the SUNY hospitals of loss 

20          of operational funds?

21                 SR. VICE CHANCELLOR MEGNA:  

22          Absolutely.

23                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you very 

24          much for testifying, and we're going to move 


 1          on to our second witness, hopefully.

 2                 CHANCELLOR JOHNSON:  Thank you very 

 3          much.  Appreciate the time.

 4                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  As we move, we 

 5          won't be as long.

 6                 Our next witness is the chancellor of 

 7          the City University of New York, James 

 8          Milliken.  

 9                 If we could take conversations outside 

10          so we can continue the hearing.

11                 Chancellor, thank you for being here.  

12          You can begin.

13                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Thank you.  

14          Morning?  Morning, yeah, still morning.

15                 Members of the committee, guests, I'm 

16          James B. Milliken, I'm the chancellor of the 

17          City University of New York.  This is my 

18          fourth time to appear before you to discuss 

19          the goals and priorities of the City 

20          University of New York and the state's 

21          budget.  

22                 I want to thank my friend and new 

23          colleague Chancellor Johnson for joining us 

24          in higher education in New York and for doing 


 1          what Chancellor Zimpher used to do, which is 

 2          to take all the tough questions for about two 

 3          hours from this group before I take the hot 

 4          seat.

 5                 I'm joined by several of my 

 6          colleagues, and I'll introduce them at an 

 7          appropriate time if there are questions that 

 8          I need some assistance with.

 9                 So I just want to start by saying 

10          something that I know you all know, and it's 

11          evident from the questions that you asked 

12          during the testimony of Chancellor Johnson, 

13          and that is that despite the skepticism that 

14          we read about, astonishingly enough to me, 

15          about the continuing value of higher 

16          education in this country, there has never 

17          been a time when it's more important.  Most 

18          of the new jobs created require education 

19          beyond high school.  So the opportunity that 

20          we provide as a nation, as a state, and as a 

21          city in New York depend on higher education.

22                 I'm a firm believer that talent is 

23          evenly distributed across all areas of 

24          demography.  It does not depend on race, 


 1          ethnicity, wealth, or national origin.  But 

 2          opportunity is not equally distributed.  And 

 3          one of the ways in this country that we 

 4          address that inequality is through higher 

 5          education, and CUNY is one of the great 

 6          engines of social and economic mobility in 

 7          this country that allow us to address that.

 8                 So I want to thank this Legislature -- 

 9          it was mentioned earlier by Chancellor 

10          Johnson that New York is in a better position 

11          than many states in terms of the public 

12          support for higher education.  That's 

13          absolutely true.  The TAP program in New York 

14          is known across the country as an effective 

15          way of supporting low-income students.  Add 

16          to that the Governor's Excelsior program from 

17          last year, again in this year's budget and 

18          increasing the income eligibility, which adds 

19          additional members of the middle class to the 

20          ranks of students that are supported by the 

21          State of New York and able to attend college.  

22                 So all of this support has helped CUNY 

23          to advance its essential mission of access, 

24          of inclusion, of high quality, and makes me 


 1          -- and I believe the members of my board and 

 2          my presidents -- optimistic about the future 

 3          of the City University of New York.  And if 

 4          you haven't seen it, I hope that you will see 

 5          some of our billboards, our advertisements.  

 6          Those of you who are on the subway may have 

 7          already seen it.  

 8                 In light of the attention that CUNY 

 9          has gotten over the last year as the 

10          unparalleled leader of social and economic 

11          mobility in this country, we have decided to 

12          demonstrate that recognition through our new 

13          marketing effort, which unabashedly and I 

14          think quite deservedly refers to CUNY as the 

15          greatest urban university in the world.  And 

16          if you have any questions about why that's 

17          the case, I'd be happy to get into that 

18          later.

19                 Nothing is more important to the 

20          economic strength of the state and to 

21          individual opportunity than having a talented 

22          workforce to attract investment and good jobs 

23          and to foster the innovation necessary to be 

24          competitive.  And increasingly, as I 


 1          mentioned, college education is essential to 

 2          that.  

 3                 High-growth industries need employees 

 4          with not only technological skills, but they 

 5          also need a workforce that is nimble, that 

 6          collaborates effectively, and that functions 

 7          in different cultures and languages.  In 

 8          short, they need talent, they need skills, 

 9          and they need diversity, and that is what 

10          CUNY offers on a scale that no other 

11          university in the country can match.  

12                 I know that you have seen and are 

13          familiar with the landmark study that was 

14          released just about a year ago from a group 

15          of Stanford and other economists with 

16          actually an amazing amount of research, with 

17          30 million IRS records and 30 million student 

18          enrollment records.  So this  groundbreaking 

19          research demonstrated really for the first 

20          time which institutions across this country 

21          are the ones that are most effectively 

22          propelling students from the lowest quintile 

23          of wealth, the lowest-wealth students, to the 

24          middle class and beyond.  


 1                 So the good news is while not every 

 2          institution is doing a terrific job of 

 3          that -- not every institution is enrolling, 

 4          in my view, enough low-income and 

 5          underrepresented students -- of the top 10 in 

 6          the country, CUNY occupied six of the top 10 

 7          spots in terms of moving students from the 

 8          lowest quintile of wealth to the middle 

 9          class.  CUNY sends more students from 

10          low-income to the middle class than the eight 

11          Ivy Leagues, Duke, MIT, Chicago, and Stanford 

12          combined.  

13                 So this is a badge of honor, I think, 

14          for New York and speaks well of support from 

15          the Governor and this Legislature for the 

16          programs at CUNY that make this kind of 

17          social and economic mobility possible.  

18                 Our students are exceptional.  And if 

19          you ask me about them, I'll give you specific 

20          examples.  But I want to keep my comments now 

21          brief and get into questions, but I can't 

22          move on without giving responsibility for the 

23          great achievements that CUNY has made to our 

24          outstanding faculty.  And we look to you, to 


 1          the state, and we look to the city for 

 2          continuing help to allow us to recruit and 

 3          retain the highest-quality faculty who make 

 4          possible the work that we do with our 

 5          students, make possible the research that's 

 6          done at CUNY, make possible our outreach 

 7          programs.

 8                 I'm particularly proud of the fact 

 9          that since I arrived at the City University 

10          of New York almost four years ago, we have 

11          strengthened our faculty considerably while 

12          increasing diversity markedly among the 

13          faculty.  Almost 44 percent of new faculty 

14          hires last year were from underrepresented 

15          groups, which is a continuation of an upward 

16          trend.  The result is the percentage of 

17          minority faculty members has reached an 

18          historic high at CUNY of 36 percent today.  

19          It's not enough, but it is progress, and 

20          we're moving strongly in the right direction.

21                 Also, I listened earlier to the 

22          discussion of adjunct and full-time faculty.  

23          I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to mention 

24          that, but I do want to mention that I am very 


 1          pleased that we have been able to 

 2          significantly improve terms for our adjunct 

 3          faculty over the last few years, including 

 4          through our work with the Professional Staff 

 5          Congress, including health insurance for 

 6          eligible adjuncts and greater job security in 

 7          the last contract that we settled with 

 8          providing for three-year appointments for 

 9          eligible adjuncts.

10                 So the investment in the Executive 

11          Budget that's been made will help further 

12          advance our strategies, and I believe there's 

13          compelling evidence that the investment in 

14          CUNY is paying off dramatically.  A couple of 

15          data points.  Last year we graduated 52,000 

16          students, the most in the history of the City 

17          University of New York, and we had a freshman 

18          enrollment last year that was at a record.  

19          We had an applications increase last year of 

20          almost 10 percent, and this year an over 

21          10 percent increase, year to year, over that 

22          all-time high last year in terms of 

23          applications to CUNY.

24                 So we are growing, and that is a good 


 1          thing.  One of the most important elements of 

 2          our strategy is what we do when those 

 3          students arrive, and that is to help them be 

 4          successful and complete their college 

 5          education on time.  And part of our new 

 6          strategic plan is a focus on success and 

 7          increasing the graduation rates at the 

 8          community college and the baccalaureate 

 9          level.  

10                 There is a new university-wide culture 

11          of completion across CUNY.  Nothing could be 

12          more important than students taking as many 

13          courses as they can reasonably manage to 

14          graduate on time.  We talk about the cost of 

15          education all the time.  The greatest single 

16          way to reduce the cost of education is to cut 

17          the number of years that students are 

18          pursuing their education.  They're a fixed 

19          cost that students pay every year they're 

20          pursuing -- so if we can reduce from five 

21          years to four years the time in school, we've 

22          just cut 20 percent of the cost of a 

23          student's education.

24                 So I am very pleased that our 


 1          presidents, our faculty, have taken this 

 2          challenge on and are working on strategies to 

 3          help our students increase graduation rates.

 4                 So an example.  Last year the number 

 5          of full-time students taking a 15-credit-hour 

 6          load was 31 percent.  This year it's 

 7          41 percent, a 10 percent increase in one year 

 8          of the students taking a 15-a-year credit 

 9          load, which will keep them on track to 

10          graduate in two and four years.

11                 We are on track to meet the ambitious 

12          goal that we announced last year with our new 

13          strategic plan, and that is to double the 

14          graduation rates of our community colleges.  

15          Double them.  

16                 The urban community college graduation 

17          rates in this country are a scandal.  They 

18          are way too low, and they have been too low 

19          at CUNY, but we are now ahead of the national 

20          average -- and over a five-year period, we 

21          will double the graduation rates and be the 

22          national leader.  There are already several 

23          states, including California, Ohio, Virginia, 

24          Tennessee, that are adopting CUNY's 


 1          strategies to increase their graduation rates 

 2          at their community colleges, and we're 

 3          working with them.

 4                 The good news for this progress is 

 5          that the impact, the disproportionate impact 

 6          at CUNY that increasing graduation rates will 

 7          have on low-income, immigrant, and 

 8          underrepresented groups who represent by far 

 9          the dominant share of CUNY's enrollment.

10                 A second element of the plan is to 

11          increase our ability to help students launch 

12          great careers.  We own the space, we believe, 

13          with employers, preparing our students 

14          adequately for the workforce, giving them the 

15          experiential learning and internships they 

16          need to increase their networks, to increase 

17          their performance in school -- which research 

18          demonstrates that it does -- have them become 

19          acquainted with businesses, not-for-profits 

20          where they want to work, and give them a 

21          positive step to employment.  

22                 So we are spending a great deal of 

23          effort, have raised a significant amount of 

24          private funding to increase our internship 


 1          programs and our workforce preparation 

 2          programs.

 3                 With regard to the specifics of the 

 4          Executive Budget, there's a $70 million 

 5          increase for the senior colleges, which is 

 6          critical to our progress and includes 

 7          mandatory fringe benefit increases which 

 8          would be essential to us in the future.  It 

 9          also includes a second year of the use, the 

10          promotion, the development of free online 

11          textbooks and course materials, which is one 

12          of those elements of the cost of college we 

13          have traditionally had the least control over 

14          and has probably increased at a rate higher 

15          than almost any other element of cost.  

16                 This is an exciting story for both 

17          CUNY and SUNY, and I believe a part of the 

18          future of maintaining costs will be reducing 

19          significantly the amount of textbooks and 

20          course materials, and our faculty have taken 

21          on this assignment with great enthusiasm.

22                 The Executive Budget also includes 

23          adoption of the DREAM Act in New York.  And I 

24          want to say a word about this, because this 


 1          is something that is extremely important to 

 2          me personally and something that our board 

 3          has always advocated in favor of.  So 

 4          everybody knows about the intense national 

 5          debate, not yet over -- hopefully will be 

 6          successfully over soon -- to renew the DACA 

 7          program.  But I don't know that everyone is 

 8          as familiar, and I think as policymakers in 

 9          the state you should be familiar with the 

10          actual impact that the program has on 

11          students.  

12                 So students -- there may be 5,000 or 

13          6,000 undocumented students at CUNY, and 

14          there are a large number of DACA students at 

15          CUNY, between a thousand and 2,000, not 

16          eligible for any public support -- TAP, Pell, 

17          any other -- that their high-school 

18          classmates are eligible for.  

19                 But we have pursued aggressively 

20          private funding to be able to close that gap, 

21          and we have a robust partnership with 

22          TheDream.US, which is the brainchild of Don 

23          Graham, a former publisher of the Washington 

24          Post.  When I arrived at CUNY four years ago, 


 1          there were 30 students that were receiving 

 2          TheDream.US scholarships allowing 

 3          undocumented students to have their tuition 

 4          paid for.  Since that time, almost 800 CUNY 

 5          students have gone to school because of 

 6          TheDream.US program.  

 7                 Last year there were 475 Dream.US DACA 

 8          students enrolled at CUNY, and these students 

 9          do tremendously well.  The retention rate 

10          year to year for our DACA students who were 

11          receiving Dream.US scholarships is 

12          90 percent.  It is higher than their US 

13          citizen peers in the classroom.  Of these 

14          475 scholarship winners, I mentioned last 

15          year 70 percent maintained a GPA of over 3.0.  

16          These students are mentors, leaders in 

17          student government, club officers, and 

18          valedictorians.  So I can't say enough about 

19          how important it is to us at CUNY, to our 

20          students, to the community in New York that 

21          the Governor has once again advocated for the 

22          DREAM Act, and we hope that the Legislature 

23          will support that.

24                 I mentioned the second phase of 


 1          Excelsior, increasing the income eligibility 

 2          level to add even more students to the group 

 3          that will receive it.  I think another very 

 4          important initiative this year, the No 

 5          Student Goes Hungry initiative of the 

 6          Governor's, something that we at CUNY have 

 7          been concerned about for some time -- our own 

 8          faculty at the School of Public Health have 

 9          done significant research on this and 

10          identified food insecurity as one of the key 

11          factors for students dropping out and 

12          underperforming in school.  

13                 And about half of our campuses have 

14          food pantries now, but we hope to increase it 

15          to all.  We have a number of campuses also 

16          that have single-stop offices that help 

17          students with all of the benefits to which 

18          they are entitled already and may not be 

19          getting, and that's something that we have 

20          continually sought additional investment in 

21          so we can expand it to all of our campuses --

22                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Chancellor, I 

23          don't mean to interrupt -- I wonder if you 

24          could just wrap up, because we'd really like 


 1          to start to get to some questions.  The 

 2          members are very anxious --

 3                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  I was hoping to 

 4          filibuster completely and then everybody 

 5          would be going to lunch.

 6                 (Laughter.)

 7                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So far you've 

 8          done a good job.

 9                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Okay.  So you've 

10          caught me.  Even though this is your first 

11          year of chairing here -- Senator LaValle must 

12          have mentioned something to you about my 

13          testimony.

14                 A quick word on the capital budget.  

15          Very pleased, second year in a row, 

16          $284 million in critical maintenance for the 

17          senior colleges, hugely important.  CUNY, 

18          like SUNY, has an aging capital 

19          infrastructure and we need this investment, 

20          and the same thing with the community 

21          colleges.

22                 We need to be able to use our space 

23          effectively.  We have added 40,000 students 

24          to CUNY over the last decade, which is the 


 1          size of the University of Michigan, without 

 2          significant new space.  So our capital 

 3          request also includes the opportunity to 

 4          expand to support this group.

 5                 So on behalf of the Board of Trustees 

 6          of the City University of New York, my 

 7          colleagues at the colleges, and myself, we 

 8          thank you for your investment, and I look 

 9          forward to the opportunity to address any 

10          questions you may have.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

12                 We'll move on to Assemblywoman Glick.

13                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you.

14                 Thank you very much, Chancellor.  A 

15          few questions.  

16                 I know that because CUNY is a more 

17          compact set of schools, you have had for 

18          quite some time a large number of students 

19          who have gone to school with appropriate 

20          supports.  The student body tends to be less 

21          wealthy than students who go to SUNY, so more 

22          of your student body, a larger percentage, 

23          have for a long time between TAP and Pell 

24          been able to attend without tuition costs.  


 1          But I'm wondering, there does seem to be, 

 2          based on some of the numbers we have, an 

 3          increased number for the Excelsior program, 

 4          which has brought more students than you had 

 5          before.  

 6                 And I'm wondering if there are 

 7          particular campuses which have seen that 

 8          cohort go to more than others, and whether or 

 9          not those particular campuses are already 

10          overcrowded.  How is the system dealing with 

11          that?

12                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  So I do believe 

13          that the announcement of Excelsior and the 

14          very discussion about making access, 

15          improving access last year, helped increase 

16          the number of applicants that we had.  And so 

17          I do think that it's a contributing factor.

18                 I have a list of the campuses and how 

19          many students they have, but I don't happen 

20          to have it in front of me.  You know, I would 

21          say that in a university that's increased by 

22          40,000 students over the last 10 years 

23          without significant new physical space, this 

24          is an issue that we have been facing for some 


 1          time.  And while Excelsior has no doubt added 

 2          additional students, it's a bigger issue than 

 3          just the Excelsior students.

 4                 One of the things that we are going to 

 5          have to do that I talked to this committee 

 6          about, these committees about before, is the 

 7          increased use of online education, increased 

 8          partnerships with other entities, whether 

 9          they're libraries or other probably public 

10          and in some cases private entities, to use 

11          space effectively in one of the most 

12          expensive real estate markets in the country.  

13          But there is a need for expansion, and there 

14          is also a need for investment in laboratory 

15          space and others that we can't replicate in 

16          partnerships, and we can't simply add more 

17          students to the classrooms in those cases.

18                 So this is a long-term issue that we 

19          need to deal with, with your help, to address 

20          what I hope will be continuing growth in 

21          enrollment at CUNY.

22                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Were there 

23          particular campuses that seemed to have been 

24          the focus of these new applicants 


 1          specifically from Excelsior?  And do you even 

 2          know whether they're applicants that are -- I 

 3          mean, I'm not quite certain whether the 

 4          Excelsior scholarships in some instances may 

 5          have already been students who are currently 

 6          enrolled but were able to, because of the 

 7          change in the eligibility at the higher end 

 8          of the salary/income range, have been able 

 9          to -- they were sophomores, they're going to 

10          be able to get their junior and senior year 

11          covered in a way that had not occurred 

12          before.

13                 So I'm just wondering -- and if you 

14          don't have it in front of you, that's fine, I 

15          just would like to understand that later --

16                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Yeah.

17                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  -- what your 

18          analysis of the numbers are and whether there 

19          were particular campuses that attracted 

20          students more than others.

21                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Right.  So as I 

22          look through the list of 24 campuses and -- 

23          well, not 24 because of undergraduates -- but 

24          those that are receiving students with 


 1          Excelsior, the numbers are as you might 

 2          expect.  The largest campuses receive the 

 3          largest number of them and the smallest the 

 4          smallest.  

 5                 But they are not the kinds of numbers 

 6          that in and of themselves would create a 

 7          significant drain on the resources of a 

 8          campus or tax the facilities.  Again, the 

 9          larger question of the total enrollment 

10          growth over a period is a little different 

11          issue, but it all adds up.

12                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  On that matter, 

13          when it comes to the facilities, there has 

14          been over the last 10 years some tremendous 

15          improvement in the facilities of some of the 

16          campuses.  That was some long-range planning.  

17          We have not been successful at getting a 

18          five-year capital plan embraced by the 

19          Executive.  

20                 But within that context, where do you 

21          see the ability of the system to address both 

22          some really needed new facilities -- science 

23          buildings in particular are expensive -- but 

24          I know that there are at least a couple that 


 1          need to be addressed soon.  And yet you, with 

 2          40,000 other students, there are other kinds 

 3          of facilities you need.  Where are you in 

 4          your planning?  What are you targeting?

 5                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Well, I'm a fan 

 6          of planning.  And despite the lack of a 

 7          five-year plan, we have a five-year plan 

 8          which identifies our priorities for capital 

 9          needs across the university.  And as you 

10          mentioned, several of the highest priorities 

11          relate to science and health professions 

12          because of areas of growth in the economy.  

13          And there are several of these facilities 

14          which have been a part of our request for a 

15          number of years.  

16                 We know this is a tough budget period 

17          this year, but we will continue to make the 

18          case for new facilities at both the senior 

19          colleges and the community colleges.  Some of 

20          this is probably going to have to be done 

21          with private investment.  Increasingly we are 

22          raising money for some kinds of facilities at 

23          CUNY, and this is a trend across the country, 

24          as you know.


 1                 But I don't see the time in the near 

 2          future when we are going to be able at CUNY 

 3          to raise the kinds of private funds we need 

 4          to invest in some of the most important, 

 5          sophisticated science and health science 

 6          kinds of facilities.

 7                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  You talked about 

 8          the terrific faculty -- as a Queens College 

 9          graduate, I will say that they are 

10          exceptional.  And you have done -- you know, 

11          you're in a marketplace where you can attract 

12          more diversity to the faculty than perhaps in 

13          some other parts of the state.  So I'm very 

14          proud of the record that you've established.  

15                 But I'm wondering where you are in 

16          your ratio of full-time faculty to adjuncts 

17          at this point.  Kudos for trying to be more 

18          supportive of adjunct faculty, giving some -- 

19          instead of the year-to-year situation where 

20          so many faculty members didn't know until 

21          classes were starting whether they had a job 

22          or not, weren't eligible for unemployment 

23          because they had a letter that said "You're 

24          likely to get a spot," but it wasn't clear.  


 1          So that put a lot of very intelligent, smart, 

 2          hard-working people in a very difficult 

 3          place.

 4                 So where are we on the full-time 

 5          faculty trajectory?

 6                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  One to 1.5, over 

 7          7,000 full-time faculty, 7,500 -- about 

 8          11,500 adjunct faculty.  Part of our request, 

 9          part of what we will be using funds for in 

10          the budget is to hire more full-time faculty.  

11                 I do want to remind you -- which I 

12          know you know well -- it's something I 

13          mentioned earlier, which is the establishment 

14          in our agreement with the PSC in the last 

15          budget cycle to create a three-year 

16          appointment process for eligible adjunct 

17          faculty, which I personally am hugely in 

18          favor of and think it's a step forward for 

19          just the reason that you mentioned.

20                 But of course our goal is to increase 

21          the number of full-time faculty who are 

22          necessary to the sort of academic community 

23          that we are creating at CUNY, with a culture 

24          of completion where there are faculty 


 1          available to do academic advising in addition 

 2          to their teaching, who are available and have 

 3          the time to do research and other scholarly 

 4          work, to keep them at the top of the game and 

 5          benefit our students.

 6                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  My time is 

 7          expired, but I would be interested in finding 

 8          out what your year-to-year movement will be 

 9          in increasing full-time faculty.

10                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Sure.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senator 

12          LaValle.

13                 SENATOR LAVALLE:  Thank you.

14                 Good to see you again, Chancellor.

15                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Thank you.

16                 SENATOR LAVALLE:  There was no mention 

17          of the maintenance of effort, and how are you 

18          going to be handling the additional costs 

19          that you are incurring?  How are you going to 

20          deal with that?

21                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Well, the 

22          Executive Budget and -- including the 

23          recognition of our tuition increase, will 

24          provide the funding that we need in our 


 1          financial plan to support CUNY's goals in the 

 2          next year.

 3                 Could we do more if we had additional 

 4          funding?  Absolutely.  We could hire more 

 5          full-time faculty.  We could implement 

 6          programs more rapidly to accelerate the 

 7          graduation rates and build the workforce 

 8          linkages.  But we recognize the constraints 

 9          on the budget this year.  

10                 We are pleased that things like the 

11          fringe benefits, which is a significant 

12          investment, is there so we don't have to 

13          reallocate to fund that.  And the tuition 

14          increase of $200 at the senior colleges will 

15          provide that additional funding that we need 

16          to support our faculty contract and to do 

17          some additional hiring.

18                 SENATOR LAVALLE:  One of the things 

19          that CUNY has always had a voracious appetite 

20          for is for -- and you have a book that you 

21          held up before, "Five-Year Capital Plan."  

22          The presidents lobby heavily for projects -- 

23          critical maintenance is very important, 

24          facilities age -- but in order to keep up 


 1          with both equipment and physical space, we 

 2          need capital.  So will you be dragged a bit 

 3          -- will there be some drag on you?  Because 

 4          that book that you have looks pretty thick.

 5                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  CUNY's a big 

 6          place with a lot of students and an aging 

 7          infrastructure where I think the average age 

 8          of our building is over 50 years old.  With 

 9          the investment in critical maintenance, we'll 

10          do the best we can to keep those buildings up 

11          and rehabilitate them to be at 2018 standards 

12          for what they're used for.

13                 But there's no question, as I 

14          mentioned before, because of the increased 

15          enrollment at CUNY, which is significant, 

16          some of our campuses are experiencing space 

17          challenges.  And we're pretty efficient in 

18          the use of space across CUNY.  But also those 

19          high-end buildings that the State of New York 

20          wants SUNY and CUNY to have available to 

21          train the next generation of healthcare 

22          professionals, research scientists, 

23          information technology workers, engineers.  

24                 So we will have to keep making our 


 1          case and, when the state is in a position to 

 2          be able to invest in new facilities at CUNY, 

 3          we certainly hope it will do so.

 4                 SENATOR LAVALLE:  I wanted to make a 

 5          comment that both Assemblymember Glick and I 

 6          and our colleagues on our respective 

 7          committees have been strong proponents of 

 8          full-time faculty.  It's a key element in 

 9          our -- how the members feel on the committee 

10          and the committee's feel.  

11                 The area of workforce development 

12          programs, how the Governor has some specific 

13          ideas on that -- can you tell me how you're 

14          going to more forward on workforce?

15                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Yeah.  So our 

16          strategic plan basically has three main 

17          pillars, and the third one is this whole idea 

18          of helping launch our students on great 

19          careers.  And I mentioned earlier it's partly 

20          done through expanding across CUNY our 

21          internship opportunities.  

22                 We're working in 10 segments in the 

23          economy that we believe are the most 

24          important growth areas in the economy in the 


 1          City of New York.  It's IT, it's healthcare, 

 2          it's finance, it's arts and culture.  So 

 3          we're developing relationships with specific 

 4          businesses -- whether it's Infor, Revature, 

 5          IBM, Accenture, others -- to help set up 

 6          internships, recruit mentoring opportunities 

 7          and have students be first in line for jobs, 

 8          and we're doing it with entire segments of 

 9          the economy.  

10                 New program a year ago for internships 

11          in the arts programs and culture programs in 

12          New York City where students have paid 

13          internships to work in this area where they 

14          wouldn't have before, and they are hiring our 

15          graduates now as full-time employees.

16                 So this is a major effort.  So it's 

17          partly done at the college level, and they 

18          build relationships -- and I don't want to 

19          interfere with those -- they build 

20          relationships with employers based on the 

21          strengths of their programs at that college.  

22                 But there are also things that we need 

23          to do at the system level, and that's why the 

24          philosophy here is a sort of a hub and a 


 1          spoke.  Where we can provide one-stop 

 2          shopping to an industry, to a particular 

 3          large employer, and help position our 

 4          colleges and their students for access, we're 

 5          going to do that.  We're going to try to take 

 6          some of the friction out of the recruiting 

 7          process so a large New York City employer 

 8          does not need to go to 24 colleges, they may 

 9          go to a central hub  where we will facilitate 

10          the recruitment of students across CUNY.

11                 SENATOR LAVALLE:  A couple of years 

12          ago I felt we needed some oversight with the 

13          foundations, and the Governor has weighed in 

14          on this issue.  So where are you?

15                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Where I am is 

16          over the last year, together with our board 

17          and our presidents and working with these 

18          affiliated foundations, we have significantly 

19          improved the oversight, we have put in place 

20          new overarching policies on financial 

21          management across CUNY, including new 

22          guidelines for every one of the affiliated 

23          foundations, new MOU agreements with every 

24          one of our affiliated foundations, a number 


 1          of other improvements across CUNY -- a new 

 2          freestanding audit committee, I recommended 

 3          to the board and it was adopted, a new 

 4          position -- a university-wide risk management 

 5          and compliance.  

 6                 So I feel like the university is in a 

 7          good spot today in terms of the extensive 

 8          work that we have done over the past year on 

 9          this area.

10                 SENATOR LAVALLE:  Recently there was 

11          an article that I read about the presidential 

12          housing allotment.  Do you feel you have a 

13          tight reign on what we're spending as a 

14          housing allotment for presidents?  Or how 

15          they -- I guess there are options that they 

16          can choose?

17                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  So as is the 

18          case at most universities across the country, 

19          there is some provision for housing for CUNY 

20          presidents.  There's not an option for them.  

21          There's an option that the CUNY Board of 

22          Trustees has.  This is a matter that is in 

23          the executive compensation policy of the 

24          board, always has been.  So it is set by the 


 1          Board of Trustees. 

 2                 At some point in the '60s there was a 

 3          decision by the board to increase the number 

 4          of university-owned residences for presidents 

 5          as part of a way to help recruit presidents 

 6          into a very-high-cost real estate market.  

 7          That has shifted some over time.  CUNY has 

 8          sold some of those residences, may have -- 

 9          may own, I would say, five, probably five or 

10          six residences now where presidents are 

11          required to live as a condition of their 

12          employment.  

13                 For those presidents -- where CUNY 

14          does not own residences, they provide a 

15          housing allowance.  And that's the case for 

16          every CUNY president.

17                 SENATOR LAVALLE:  Just this one last 

18          question.  Excelsior program, overcrowding.  

19          Is that an issue at CUNY, overcrowding?  

20                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  That's not a 

21          cause and effect, I don't believe.  And so 

22          I -- overcrowded is a generalization.  

23          Obviously at our campuses some are more taxed 

24          with regard to space than others.  


 1                 But I believe if CUNY is successful in 

 2          continuing to increase enrollment, which I 

 3          hope it is -- we have 800,000 people in 

 4          New York City who have college credit and no 

 5          college degree.  I want those people to come 

 6          to CUNY, whether it's online or in-person, so 

 7          they get the benefit of a college degree.  I 

 8          want more students who are leaving our high 

 9          schools to come to CUNY.  

10                 We're going to have to address this 

11          situation, Senator, and I think it's going to 

12          be a combination of things.  It's going to be 

13          more space at CUNY, significantly more online 

14          -- and I want to -- I'm sure you saw this, 

15          that CUNY has the highest-rated online 

16          undergraduate program in the State of New 

17          York, and the top 20 in the country.  We need 

18          to increase the number of students we serve 

19          that way.  And I think we need to do this 

20          through partnerships with other institutions 

21          in the city so that we find creative ways to 

22          make space available.

23                 We have an employer, a major employer 

24          in the city now, where they have provided 


 1          space in their facility where we're educating 

 2          CUNY students who are -- as part of their 

 3          internship program, and hopefully go on to 

 4          work there.  And I think we're going to have 

 5          to develop more of those kinds of things.

 6                 SENATOR LAVALLE:  Thank you.

 7                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Thank you, 

 8          Senator.

 9                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

10                 We've been joined by Assemblyman 

11          Colton and Assemblyman Pichardo.

12                 Assemblywoman Bichotte has some 

13          questions.

14                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Hello.  How 

15          are you?

16                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Good morning -- 

17          afternoon.

18                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Afternoon.

19                 It's really good to see you here, 

20          Mr. Chancellor, and I want to thank you for 

21          your commitment and dedication to the CUNY 

22          community and all of our students, so thank 

23          you so much.  And I'm happy to see you.  

24          You're looking great.


 1                 I also appreciate the fact that you 

 2          mentioned a student who is a daughter of 

 3          Haitian immigrants such as myself, by the 

 4          name of Thamara Jean, who lives in my 

 5          district who was named a Rhodes Scholar.  

 6          We're very proud that she is the first 

 7          Hunter College student to be named a 

 8          Rhodes Scholar.  And I just hope that the 

 9          president of the United States takes a little 

10          lesson on what Haitians in our community -- 

11          how they can contribute.

12                 My question was around the capital 

13          budget.  As you may know, I am the chair of 

14          the Minority and Women-Owned Business 

15          Enterprises.  And over more than $284 million 

16          is dedicated to the capital budget.  I wanted 

17          to know what percentage is dedicated to 

18          MWBEs.  Are we going to hold to the standard 

19          that the state is expecting us, which is to 

20          the 30 percent MWBE goal?

21                 That's one question.  I also want to 

22          say that we really need to address the 

23          maintenance-of-effort issue.  It's been an 

24          ongoing issue for many years, and it just 


 1          needs to be addressed.

 2                 And lastly, Excelsior.  I wanted to 

 3          get a sense of how many students are 

 4          benefiting from the Excelsior program.  In 

 5          one sense, we raise tuition by $200 and we're 

 6          telling the whole world that we incorporated 

 7          a free college tuition program -- but again, 

 8          it's only a very small sliver percentage of 

 9          students who are already getting aid are 

10          being subsidized with this scholarship.  The 

11          vast majority of families across the State of 

12          New York and the City of New York are not 

13          benefiting.  

14                 And it becomes a problem for me 

15          because I have parents who are thinking that 

16          their students can go to college for free, 

17          and that's not true.

18                 Thank you.

19                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Okay.  Thanks.  

20          And I want to thank you -- I do know of your 

21          position, and I want to thank you each year 

22          for participating in the CUNY MWBE 

23          conference.

24                 So a couple of things.  It's easier to 


 1          look at the operating side in the capital 

 2          because there's a spend every quarter and 

 3          every year that we can look at.  And I would 

 4          say that we are very close, we have a little 

 5          bit of fluctuation to the 30 percent goal in 

 6          operating and capital.  

 7                 Our contracts that we are letting are 

 8          all meeting the goal, but if you measure it 

 9          by the spends, some of which date back years 

10          on contracts that were let, there's a 

11          discrepancy there.

12                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Okay.

13                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  So those would 

14          not be as high MWBE as the more recent ones 

15          are.  

16                 So it is a high priority at CUNY, a 

17          high priority of our board.  I don't think 

18          there's a meeting that goes by that this 

19          isn't a meeting of discussion at our board 

20          meeting, and so I think we share your concern 

21          and your interest and are pursuing it 

22          aggressively.

23                 Excelsior -- so I do think it has 

24          helped grow our enrollment, I think it has 


 1          certainly helped grow interest and 

 2          applications to CUNY.  With Excelsior, we 

 3          have a total of over 60 percent of our 

 4          undergraduates who pay no tuition at CUNY, so 

 5          for those students it is free in the sense 

 6          that we talk about free tuition.  Obviously 

 7          there are other costs of attendance that are 

 8          not covered for all of those people.  But 

 9          it's in excess of 60 percent today.

10                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Okay.  And 

11          those are for only students who are receiving 

12          aid.

13                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  I'm sorry?

14                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Those are -- 

15          the students who are eligible to receive the 

16          Excelsior scholarship, those 60 percent, they 

17          are all receiving aid?

18                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Well, so the 

19          60 percent is the total percentage of 

20          undergraduates at CUNY that are not paying 

21          tuition.  Now, a very significant part of 

22          that is Pell from the federal government, TAP 

23          from the State of New York, Excelsior as the 

24          newest component of this aid.  So I'm putting 


 1          all of them together.

 2                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Oh, okay.  

 3          You don't want to say the percentages of 

 4          Excelsior, of that 60 percent?

 5                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  There are about 

 6          5,000 students -- you heard earlier from 

 7          Chancellor Johnson, 23,000 total CUNY and 

 8          SUNY students receiving Excelsior.

 9                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  Okay.

10                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  About 5,000 at 

11          CUNY and 17,000 at SUNY.

12                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE:  A low 

13          percentage.  Okay, thank you.

14                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  

15                 Senator Stavisky.  

16                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you, 

17          Chancellor, for your service.

18                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Thank you.

19                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  I appreciate each 

20          year that you come, and we do appreciate 

21          everything that you have done to continue the 

22          traditions of CUNY.  

23                 You didn't introduce your colleagues, 

24          but I see Vice Chancellor Sapienza.  And I 


 1          have a constituent here, Vice Chancellor 

 2          Christopher Rosa.

 3                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Thank you.

 4                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  I have a couple of 

 5          questions.

 6                 I found the 60 percent number that you 

 7          just mentioned interesting, because I assume 

 8          a large number of those students are not 

 9          full-time; am I correct?  And is that the 

10          reason why -- I'm sorry, of the 40 percent 

11          who are not receiving the full amount.

12                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  It's a 

13          combination of eligibility, income 

14          eligibility, but it's also credit hour 

15          eligibility.  It's also those that are taking 

16          enough credits to get a Pell or a TAP.  

17                 So yes, a combination of them.  And it 

18          probably is significantly part-time.

19                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Have you found that 

20          of the students who have opted to take the 

21          Excelsior program plus the Pell grants plus 

22          the TAP, that their graduation -- that 

23          they're on track to graduate?  This is the 

24          same question I asked the SUNY chancellor.  


 1          The 30 credits plus maintaining a grade point 

 2          average.

 3                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Well, if they 

 4          are eligible for Excelsior and maintain their 

 5          eligibility for Excelsior, they will 

 6          absolutely be on track for timely graduation 

 7          because of the requirements of the program.  

 8          But the most important thing I think, 

 9          Senator, that I can say about this is a point 

10          I mentioned earlier about how one of the key 

11          elements of our strategic plan is to increase 

12          graduation rates, and we went from last year 

13          with 31 percent of our full-time students 

14          taking 15 credits to this year 41 percent of 

15          full-time students taking 15 credits.

16                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  That's my point.

17                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  That's going to 

18          keep a very significant number of students on 

19          the pathway to graduation.

20                 And it's all good.

21                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  That was the 

22          purpose of my question.  I assumed this to be 

23          the case.

24                 Would the increase of $200 in tuition, 


 1          and with the Excelsior amount being somewhat 

 2          flat, there's a gap that has always been 

 3          there where we've had that problem with -- 

 4          how is CUNY dealing with the what I used to 

 5          call the TAP gap, the gap between what the 

 6          students have to pay out and what they 

 7          receive?

 8                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Well, that's a 

 9          cost that CUNY has to bear, which is about 

10          $59 million right now, the gap.

11                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  And can you tell 

12          us -- again, I asked this question of SUNY -- 

13          what is the cost of remediation for those 

14          students who come to CUNY and are not 

15          prepared for college work?

16                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Did SUNY tell 

17          you that number?

18                 (Laughter.)

19                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Yeah.

20                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  I didn't 

21          remember hearing it, so maybe I should say 

22          "What she said."

23                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  I think that was 

24          one of the "I'll get back to you" answers.


 1                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  You know, I 

 2          think in the past we have estimated our 

 3          number to be about a little less than half of 

 4          what SUNY's is.  

 5                 You know, it's no secret that we have 

 6          had a challenge with students requiring 

 7          remedial education, and we used to -- when I 

 8          came before this committee I talked to you 

 9          about 80 percent, give or take a couple 

10          percentage points, of students who present at 

11          our community colleges who required some 

12          remedial education before they could 

13          matriculate.  

14                 That number is down significantly now, 

15          and there are a number of factors for that.  

16          One of them is that I believe we have 

17          significantly, after a year of study 

18          university-wide, improved our approach to 

19          remediation and adopted some national best 

20          practices in remedial education.  I could 

21          give you some details about it, but what it 

22          has done -- in no way changing the 

23          requirements for admission and the 

24          requirements for graduation, so students are 


 1          still meeting the same obligations -- but I 

 2          think CUNY was a little out of step with 

 3          national best practice on how to do 

 4          remediation.  

 5                 To give you one quick example, 

 6          students who scored right below the cut line 

 7          on being admitted, there's a lot of research 

 8          that demonstrates that if you allow those 

 9          students to matriculate, their chances of 

10          success are considerably higher than the 

11          students who are not allowed to matriculate 

12          but go into remedial courses without making 

13          any progress towards their degree.  

14                 So if we know that and can do a 

15          provisional admit, or an admit at the same 

16          time to get credit for courses while they're 

17          becoming proficient, we've increased our 

18          success and we've done those students, I 

19          think, a great service.

20                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.  Because 

21          I've always felt that that is not a cost that 

22          should be borne by CUNY, the failure to 

23          prepare adequately for college.

24                 Thank you.  Thank you for your 


 1          service, again.

 2                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 4                 I have a couple of quick questions, 

 5          and I think then we just have a few more 

 6          members.  

 7                 The Executive proposal allows for 

 8          $60 million from the sale of CUNY property to 

 9          be used for state support.  Is CUNY planning 

10          on selling any assets for $60 million?

11                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  I don't believe 

12          there's a plan at this time to sell any of 

13          our assets.

14                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  And then on -- 

15          I know you were just talking about some of 

16          the support for students, and I know that 

17          CUNY has been focusing on supports for 

18          students to aid in both retention and 

19          graduation.  How will the Executive Budget 

20          proposal impact your strategies to further 

21          improve student success?  I'm thinking in 

22          particular of the $4-million-plus reduction 

23          in SEEK funds.

24                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Well, the first 


 1          thing that it does is by including the 

 2          mandatory costs, it keeps us from having to 

 3          reallocate those funds within our senior 

 4          college budget.  So that allows us not to 

 5          have to make up ground for that, that's very 

 6          positive.

 7                 Second, it continues a $4 million 

 8          investment in the online resources for 

 9          textbooks and course materials, a 

10          significant, we believe -- which will pay off 

11          many times that investment in terms of the 

12          amount that we can save our students, and of 

13          course cost is always one of the top factors 

14          in students not persisting.  So we think 

15          that's a positive.

16                 Recognizing the increase in tuition at 

17          our senior colleges will allow us to have a 

18          significant level of funding, over $30 

19          million, to invest primarily in faculty 

20          resources.  So that, together with some 

21          adjustments that we have made recently in 

22          agreement with the PSC, which will provide 

23          opportunities for more academic advising by 

24          our faculties so that students will have the 


 1          benefit of that and be able to continue 

 2          progress towards degrees.  There's really 

 3          nothing more important than that, I think, in 

 4          terms of students staying on track.

 5                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you very 

 6          much.  

 7                 We have, as our next speaker, Senator 

 8          Savino.

 9                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you.  Thank 

10          you, Senator Young.  

11                 Thank you, Chancellor.  It's good to 

12          see you, and for once I don't have to ask you 

13          about the fate of the Murphy Institute 

14          becoming a full school, so I want to thank 

15          you for making good on that commitment.  It 

16          seems like yesterday we were meeting in your 

17          office to talk about it.  I know it's very 

18          important to CUNY, it's very important to the 

19          labor movement, and it's personally very 

20          important to me, so I want to thank you for 

21          your efforts on that.

22                 I want to follow up on something you 

23          said in your testimony about one of the ways 

24          we can reduce the burdens on students and the 


 1          costs on students is to make sure that they 

 2          graduate on time and get out of school 

 3          sooner.  One of the ways we can do that, I 

 4          believe, is through advanced placement 

 5          courses, AP courses.  

 6                 There was a recent report put out by 

 7          the Independent Budget Office, though, that 

 8          shows that participation in advanced 

 9          placement courses at the high school level is 

10          significantly below what we would like.  Only 

11          about 30 percent of students are taking them, 

12          and in low-income neighborhoods where you 

13          have poorer communities, they are even less 

14          likely to do so.

15                 So now while it really is the 

16          responsibility of, I would say, the 

17          Department of Education to encourage advanced 

18          placement, since it benefits students who 

19          eventually become your students, is there a 

20          role that CUNY can play in expanding access 

21          to information about advanced placement 

22          courses or working with local high schools to 

23          see to it that students enroll in those 

24          courses?


 1                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Yeah.  So you're 

 2          right.

 3                 SENATOR SAVINO:  I love it when they 

 4          say that.  Thank you.

 5                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Increasing 

 6          advanced placement would be fine, but I do 

 7          think there are other ways at CUNY that we 

 8          are doing things which in my view are even 

 9          more important than that.  

10                 One is we have between 25,000 and 

11          30,000 students in New York City who are 

12          taking college courses now throughout high 

13          schools in New York.  So not just advanced 

14          placement, these are courses for which they 

15          are getting college credit, and they are 

16          taking them free now in the high schools and 

17          getting acquainted with college-level work.  

18          I see no reason why we can't significantly 

19          expand that number, and I would like us to do 

20          that.  

21                 So Early College and College Now 

22          programs that CUNY has been a pioneer in -- 

23          the P-TECH model high schools, combination 

24          high school two-year programs of which we 


 1          support -- I can't think of the number right 

 2          now, 14 or 15 in New York City are partners 

 3          with DOE and individual industries, the first 

 4          one being IBM and DOE and CUNY -- where 

 5          students go through the program, get a high 

 6          school degree, get a two-year degree, and 

 7          then get a job.  I think those are other 

 8          ways.

 9                 So I think there are -- advanced 

10          placement is one of the strategies, but I 

11          don't think it's the only one.

12                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Oh, that's good to 

13          know.

14                 But I'm just concerned about what 

15          appears to be a disconnect at schools between 

16          the DOE and -- just letting students know 

17          that advanced placement is one of the tools 

18          that they can use, and it is literally money 

19          in your pocket.  You know, if it's a course 

20          you don't have to take at CUNY that they -- 

21          it comes out of your budget, but it doesn't 

22          come out of their budget.  So I just think we 

23          need to do more, so.  

24                 And again, let me just say one more 


 1          time, thank you for the commitment on Murphy 

 2          Institute.  Thank you.

 3                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  You're very 

 4          welcome.

 5                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 6                 Assemblywoman Glick.

 7                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Just a couple of 

 8          follow-ups.  

 9                 The graduation rates that have been 

10          deemed to be so dismal -- is it not true that 

11          if a student starts in a community college 

12          and goes for a year and then transfers to a 

13          four-year school, they have not actually 

14          completed a degree at the community college 

15          and the community college doesn't actually 

16          get credit for a graduation at that point?

17                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Used to be.  It 

18          used to be the case, and I think that's a 

19          significant problem for a variety of reasons.  

20                 But we have instituted about two years 

21          ago something which is unartfully referred to 

22          across the country as reverse transfer, and 

23          how it works is this:  You go to Bronx 

24          Community College for a year, you transfer to 


 1          Lehman, you spend another year at Lehman -- 

 2          your credits that you have earned at Lehman 

 3          would be sufficient for you to have received 

 4          an associate's degree at Bronx.  We are now 

 5          providing the associate's degree.  

 6                 One of the reasons is that we believe, 

 7          I think like you, that if a student has 

 8          earned a credential, they should receive that 

 9          credential.  And if they leave early and are 

10          successfully pursuing a four-year degree, 

11          they shouldn't be penalized in this way, not 

12          receiving the other earned credential.  Maybe 

13          that student will drop out in three years, 

14          but in this case they'll now have the 

15          community college degree.  

16                 So I think it's an important point, 

17          and I'm very pleased with the numbers that we 

18          are seeing now.  It's been a successful 

19          program.

20                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  At some point 

21          perhaps you can share with the committee -- 

22          since it's two years old, it's not going to 

23          have a long trajectory --

24                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Correct.


 1                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  -- but just if 

 2          you could give us some information on that.

 3                 In addition, there are many people 

 4          that already have a degree but for one reason 

 5          or another -- perhaps it's a requirement of 

 6          their employer, that they take a couple of 

 7          credits or a couple of courses, and they show 

 8          up as a student at a community college, never 

 9          intending to graduate.  Do we have any idea 

10          of what that universe might be?

11                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  I don't, off the 

12          top of my head.  I can get it to you -- it's 

13          probably pretty hard to unwrap that with 

14          precision.  

15                 But I would say to you I want that 

16          number to get much bigger.  Because, you 

17          know, what they say -- when I went to school, 

18          you graduated and thought you'd get a job and 

19          you'd be there and you'd retire later.  Now 

20          they estimate that students who graduate with 

21          a four-year degree are going to have over 

22          five career changes, five or seven, by the 

23          time they're 35.  Often they're going to need 

24          to retool.  


 1                 I read a statistic the other day that 

 2          said that over half of the jobs that will 

 3          exist 15 years from now haven't been 

 4          conceived of yet.  It would be tough for us 

 5          to prepare students, except in a general way, 

 6          for those.  So the retooling that has to be 

 7          done, the new skills that people are going to 

 8          learn and that kind of thing, I want them to 

 9          come to CUNY for that, whether it's for a 

10          short credit load certificate or whether it's 

11          just for a course or two.  

12                 And so I'll give you the numbers we 

13          have on this, but I think it will be 

14          successful if we can increase those numbers.

15                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  I don't disagree 

16          with you.  My concern is that as we do 

17          that -- which I think you're 100 percent 

18          right, lots of people are going to find the 

19          need to find a new way of making a living -- 

20          that we not penalize or denigrate our 

21          community colleges with a false notion that 

22          their graduation rate, which is tagged to 

23          something different, makes them less 

24          successful if they have larger numbers of 


 1          people coming back for three or four courses 

 2          that were never intended to get a specific 

 3          credential but have been encouraged.  

 4                 So unless we're going to be doing much 

 5          more in the way of identifying "these four 

 6          courses provide you with this kind of 

 7          certificate" --

 8                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Right.  I don't 

 9          think we'll do that.  Typically we measure 

10          graduation rates based on a cohort of 

11          first-time full-time freshmen.  So the person 

12          coming back years later is not going to be 

13          part of that mix and not drag down the 

14          graduation rates.

15                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Great.

16                 One final question is, how many 

17          education programs do you have?  I have 

18          talked to the DOE chancellor; she identifies 

19          a couple of the programs that she thinks are 

20          fabulous and then some that she doesn't think 

21          are so great.  What's happening with 

22          producing New York City teachers?

23                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  We produce a 

24          huge number, between 30 and 40 percent of 


 1          New York City's teachers.  

 2                 So let me take a quick step back.  A 

 3          huge part of our strategic plan, I would say 

 4          the first third of it -- it's all called 

 5          Connected CUNY.  And the reason it's called 

 6          that is because we realized that we can't 

 7          achieve what we need to achieve without deep 

 8          partnerships with a whole lot of 

 9          institutions.  The most important one is DOE, 

10          and we're taking responsibility for that part 

11          of the education, the life from early 

12          childhood education -- where we're a leader 

13          on -- so students are college-ready when they 

14          come to CUNY.  

15                 We can't point fingers at each other.  

16          We produce a huge number of the teachers in 

17          DOE, and so we believe we are responsible in 

18          significant part for the quality of education 

19          there.  So the more we can deepen that 

20          relationship, the more our teacher candidates 

21          can get experience in New York City schools, 

22          the better prepared they are when they get 

23          there -- we think the better those students 

24          will be prepared -- and our students when 


 1          they get to CUNY will succeed.  

 2                 So we have a number of initiatives 

 3          going on now where we have -- we're bringing 

 4          together all of the deans of education, 

 5          working closely with the DOE and with the 

 6          academic -- with the provost's office at 

 7          CUNY.

 8                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you.

 9                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

10                 Senator Krueger.

11                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Good afternoon, 

12          Chancellor.

13                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Hi.

14                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  So many questions 

15          have been asked, so just a few, I think, 

16          follow-ups.

17                 It's a question I asked SUNY as well.  

18          Have you implemented adopting bylaws and 

19          fiscal management policies for all the 

20          CUNY-affiliated organizations, and can those 

21          be made available to us?

22                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  I'm sorry, we 

23          adopted what?

24                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Bylaws and fiscal 


 1          management policies --

 2                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Oh, yes.

 3                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  -- for all of the 

 4          affiliated organizations.

 5                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Yes, we 

 6          absolutely have.  We've put in place new 

 7          guidelines specifically for related 

 8          fundraising foundations and new guidelines 

 9          for all auxiliary operations, completely 

10          revised and adopted by the Board of Trustees, 

11          and a new required MOU to be signed by every 

12          auxiliary operation and every affiliated 

13          foundation.  And that has been done.

14                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  So as I asked SUNY, 

15          if you could please get that to me 

16          afterwards.

17                 And do you know approximately how many 

18          organizations there are under CUNY?  SUNY 

19          said they thought about 30.

20                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  So I'm going to 

21          let the chief financial officer answer this, 

22          because I can't tell what he's whispering to 

23          me --

24                 (Laughter.)


 1                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  But if the 

 2          question is about affiliated foundations, the 

 3          supporting foundations, there's essentially 

 4          one per college.  So there are 24 of those 

 5          fundraising foundations, and frankly there 

 6          will be 25, because we will -- with the 

 7          hiring of a new vice chancellor for 

 8          advancement at the systemwide level, we will 

 9          create a foundation to support CUNY-wide 

10          initiatives as well which will comply with 

11          the same requirements that the college 

12          foundations comply with.

13                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  But there are others 

14          besides foundations, and I guess what I'm 

15          also asking for is those reports that would 

16          be publicly available to show us how much 

17          money is going through each of these.

18                 CUNY CFO SAPIENZA:  Yeah, Senator, in 

19          total we have 86 affiliated organizations, as 

20          the chancellor said, including the college 

21          foundations, the auxiliary enterprises, the 

22          student associations, the childcare centers.  

23          In total, there's 86.

24                 And all of the new policies that we 


 1          have in place that the chancellor mentioned 

 2          earlier in response to your question, they're 

 3          all available on our website.  We'll have to 

 4          send you and the rest of the members the link 

 5          to the website.  

 6                 So we're very pleased at all of the 

 7          work that has been done over the last year to 

 8          get us to this place.

 9                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Good.  I look 

10          forward to seeing that.  Thank you.

11                 And Chancellor, you actually talked 

12          about the CUNY sort of open education online 

13          system that has actually gotten awards.  I'm 

14          curious whether you have looked at what 

15          online coursework has translated into as far 

16          as student success.  Do students who use 

17          online programs graduate sooner, less soon?  

18          Do they have to repeat -- I mean, do they 

19          fall into certain categories?  

20                 I'm just curious, in this world that's 

21          ever-changing, what online college means for 

22          us.

23                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  There's a fair 

24          amount of research on this now, and I believe 


 1          we're getting new and better data.  It 

 2          wouldn't surprise you that student success in 

 3          online mirrors in some degree their success 

 4          in physical delivery.  The better prepared a 

 5          student is, the more mature a student is, the 

 6          better they will do with online.  In fact, 

 7          the level of independence probably requires 

 8          that a student, to be successful, be even 

 9          more mature and ready.

10                 You know, there's a huge benefit to 

11          physical delivery, and in many areas -- your 

12          lab courses, et cetera -- while there are 

13          great digital models now, they're still 

14          required.  And the best education -- and 

15          fortunately at CUNY, where we're all in one 

16          place, I believe we're going to be able to be 

17          leaders in this sort of hybrid and blended 

18          educational opportunities where students are 

19          taking some of their courses -- some portion 

20          of it online, some portion of it in classroom 

21          discussion.  

22                 And actually what the research 

23          demonstrates is that that may be the most 

24          effective learning for many students, is some 


 1          combination of this.  And I frankly 

 2          personally believe that as students continue 

 3          to be more and more sophisticated in the use 

 4          of technology, that will only increase, that 

 5          the demand to deliver at least a portion of 

 6          the curriculum online is going to continue.

 7                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  So is there data, 

 8          what percentage of CUNY students are using 

 9          online or what percentage of your total 

10          coursework is allowed to be online?  Is it 

11          more in the senior colleges than in the 

12          community colleges, based on what you just 

13          said?

14                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Yes.  There is 

15          more at the senior colleges.  

16                 I'd have to get you the percentage of, 

17          for instance, credit hour delivery that's 

18          done online versus physical.  I don't know it 

19          offhand.  

20                 I can tell you that there is great 

21          interest, my own and many of my presidents, 

22          in significantly increasing the number that 

23          is available online.  There's been a good 

24          deal of work that's gone into this, and as I 


 1          mentioned, CUNY has a very successful track 

 2          record with online bachelor's courses.

 3                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  And is there a 

 4          maximum that you can take as your total 

 5          credits, being online versus in a classroom?

 6                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  No.  It would 

 7          depend on the mix of courses available in a 

 8          major.  

 9                 At the School of Professional Studies, 

10          you could take 100 percent of your courses 

11          online for particular degree programs.  The 

12          rate-limiting factor would be the course 

13          availability in the program.

14                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Thank you.

15                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you, 

16          Chancellor, for being here.  Your filibuster 

17          seems to have worked; we're on our schedule.

18                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Can I just add 

19          one --

20                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Senator 

21          Stavisky, yes.

22                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  One quick point.  

23          There was a story in the New York Times 

24          within the last couple of days that talked 


 1          about online and it added that it was even 

 2          more successful when it was a combination of 

 3          a teacher and online.

 4                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Yeah.  Exactly 

 5          right, and I agree with that.

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Okay.  Thank 

 7          you again for being here, and there may be 

 8          some followup questions from the committee.

 9                 CHANCELLOR MILLIKEN:  Thank you very 

10          much.  Happy to answer any questions that 

11          come up later.

12                 Thank you.

13                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Our next 

14          witness is the commissioner of the New York 

15          State Education Department, MaryEllen Elia.

16                 I'll give you a moment to catch your 

17          breath.  We're earlier than we anticipated.

18                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  It's been a busy 

19          morning over at State Ed.

20                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Whenever you're 

21          ready.

22                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Great, thank you.  

23          I have another person joining me.

24                 Well, good afternoon, Chairs Young, 


 1          Weinstein, LaValle and Glick, and members of 

 2          the Senate and Assembly here today.  My name 

 3          is MaryEllen Elia, and I'm the Commissioner 

 4          of Education.

 5                 I will be joined by Deputy 

 6          Commissioner for the Office of Higher 

 7          Education John D'Agati.  I'm sure he's on his 

 8          way over.  We also have Deputy Commissioner 

 9          for the Office of Professions Doug Lentivech 

10          and Deputy Commissioner for the Office of 

11          Adult Career and Continuing Education 

12          Services Kevin Smith.

13                 You have my full testimony before you.  

14          Before I begin, I want to also welcome 

15          several members of the Board of Regents who 

16          are either in the audience or on their way 

17          over, and they include Chancellor Betty Rosa, 

18          Regents Ouderkirk, Mead, Cashin, Collins, 

19          Tilles and Hakanson.

20                 The Regents' priorities in higher 

21          education are laser-focused on equity and 

22          access to post-secondary education 

23          opportunities, particularly for our 

24          underrepresented students, because we know 


 1          from multiple indicators, as you can see on 

 2          Slides 2, 3 and 4, that college completion 

 3          leads to better employment opportunities and 

 4          higher income.  

 5                 As you can see on Slides 5 through 9, 

 6          the Regents recommend an increase of 

 7          $10 million for our higher education 

 8          opportunity programs.  These programs provide 

 9          access to post-secondary education for 

10          students that are at the highest risks of 

11          either not attending college or not 

12          completing their degree.  Almost 37,000 

13          students are served by one of these programs.  

14          And with the additional investments we've 

15          recommended, we would reach more students 

16          across the state as well as provide them, 

17          under our STEP and CSTEP programs, for 

18          examples, with opportunities to participate 

19          in STEM-based research, internships, or 

20          exploratory career opportunities at area 

21          facilities.

22                 On Slide 10, our teaching workforce 

23          should be as diverse as the student 

24          populations being served by our schools.  


 1          This benefits all of our students.  Our new 

 2          Teacher Opportunity Corps, or TOC II program, 

 3          continues to be funded by the My Brother's 

 4          Keeper initiative, for which we want to thank 

 5          all of you again, especially Speaker Heastie. 

 6                 TOC II is designed to increase the 

 7          participation rate of individuals identified 

 8          as underrepresented and underserved in the 

 9          teaching professions -- African-American, 

10          Hispanic-American, American Indian, or Alaska 

11          natives.  The program also aims to enhance 

12          the preparation of teachers in addressing the 

13          learning needs of students in high-needs 

14          districts to become culturally responsive 

15          educators.

16                 And finally, TOC II will assist in the 

17          recruitment, retention and certification 

18          activities necessary to increase the supply 

19          of qualified teachers in schools and in 

20          districts experiencing teacher shortages, 

21          schools and districts having a high 

22          concentration of students at risk, and in our 

23          most troubling schools.

24                 We appreciate the strong support that 


 1          you have demonstrated for our opportunity 

 2          programs.  These programs work, and your 

 3          support and funding has made the difference.  

 4                 Our access and opportunity agenda also 

 5          includes enactment of the New York State 

 6          DREAM Act.  The Regents and the department 

 7          have long been advocates of this important 

 8          legislation, which is highlighted on Slide 

 9          11.  We're glad to see this proposal included 

10          within the Executive Budget once again, and 

11          we're hopeful that this is the year when the 

12          DREAM Act is finally signed into law and 

13          these young New Yorkers are no longer 

14          punished for decisions that they had no 

15          control over.

16                 And as you negotiate this budget, 

17          please remember that our workforce and our 

18          workforce pipeline are the state's most 

19          important infrastructure and our best 

20          economic development program.  A 

21          state-of-the-art workforce pipeline does not 

22          depend only on traditional college pathways.  

23                 As you can on Slide 12, the Regents 

24          are requesting a $3 million investment in 


 1          Bridge programs, to enable out-of-school 

 2          youth and adults to obtain essential basic 

 3          skills, a high school equivalency or HSE 

 4          diploma, industry recognized credentials, and 

 5          preparation for post-secondary study and 

 6          careers.  The programs would consist of 

 7          partnerships between an adult education 

 8          program and colleges or training providers of 

 9          demonstrated effectiveness.  This proposal 

10          could pilot up to 10 Bridge programs across 

11          New York State.  One of the best examples of 

12          this Bridge program model exists in CUNY's 

13          LaGuardia Community College.  

14                 One of our new priority budget 

15          proposals, described on Slide 13, would be to 

16          enhance supports and services for 

17          post-secondary success of our students with 

18          disabilities.  In May 2017 the department's 

19          Advisory Council on Post-Secondary Education 

20          for Students with Disabilities recommended -- 

21          and our Board of Regents adopted -- a 

22          proposal to work with representatives from 

23          our higher education sectors to develop a 

24          funding proposal that would provide 


 1          much-needed enhanced supports and services to 

 2          over 61,000 identified New York students with 

 3          disabilities in degree-granting colleges and 

 4          universities, to aid in their success.

 5                 Since May, the department has been 

 6          engaged in collaborative efforts to establish 

 7          a legislative framework advocating for 

 8          critical new funding that would supplement, 

 9          not supplant, any other funding in existence 

10          for such purposes.  The idea, which we've 

11          been working on finalizing with our 

12          higher-education-sector stakeholders, would 

13          be to allocate $15 million in a proportionate 

14          manner by each identified student with 

15          disability per sector, to SUNY, CUNY and our 

16          New York State degree-granting independent 

17          and proprietary colleges, pursuant to an 

18          approved plan.

19                 This program would be designed to 

20          supplement funding for support and 

21          accommodations of students with disabilities; 

22          support summer college preparation programs 

23          to assist individuals with disabilities 

24          transition to college and prepare them to 


 1          navigate campus facilities and systems; 

 2          provide full- and part-time college faculty 

 3          and staff with disability training; and 

 4          improve the identification process of 

 5          individuals with disabilities and enhance 

 6          data collection capabilities.

 7                 I'm mindful that this is a new 

 8          initiative in a difficult fiscal environment.  

 9          However, I want to start this critical 

10          conversation of how we need, collectively, to 

11          better support our students with disabilities 

12          to be successful in college.

13                 Moving on to Slide 14, during this 

14          past 2017 session, both Chairs LaValle and 

15          Glick introduced and, along with their fellow 

16          legislators, overwhelmingly passed 

17          legislation that would ensure that the 

18          department has sufficient staff and resources 

19          to continue our important institutional 

20          accreditation work.  And we want to thank you 

21          for this.

22                 There are currently 14 institutions of 

23          higher education in New York that are 

24          accredited by the Board of Regents, such as 


 1          Cold Spring Harbor Lab, the American Museum 

 2          of Natural History, and the Gerstner School 

 3          at Sloan-Kettering, and your efforts 

 4          demonstrate support not only for the 

 5          department to continue to do this work, but 

 6          dedication to these important programs.  

 7                 I was very pleased to see that the 

 8          Governor included within his proposal the 

 9          establishment of a special revenue account 

10          with over $500,000 to support institutional 

11          accreditation work at the department, through 

12          staffing and related expenses.  

13                 This provision, along with the 

14          authority to charge a fee for this very 

15          labor-intensive accreditation work to provide 

16          staff and resources which the Division of 

17          Budget would approve, will hopefully allow 

18          the department to once again obtain approval 

19          by the U.S. Department of Education to remain 

20          as an accrediting agency for these 

21          institutions, as well as new ones.  I'll be 

22          traveling to Washington, D.C., in February to 

23          seek this approval and will keep you posted 

24          as we continue our move through the federal 


 1          process.

 2                 On Slides 15 through 19, we provide 

 3          you with updates on the work of the Office of 

 4          Professions.  I want to bring particular 

 5          attention to e-licensing on Slide 18.  In 

 6          2009, the Legislature and Executive approved 

 7          a 15 percent registration fee increase so 

 8          that we could replace a 35-year-old 

 9          COBOL-based licensing system and enhance our 

10          customer experience.  We again thank you for 

11          the bipartisan efforts to make these 

12          resources available to the department.  

13                 The department has developed and 

14          rolled out over 20 online license 

15          applications, but this is only the very 

16          beginning of the work that needs to be done.  

17          We're requesting authority to spend funds we 

18          already have on hand in the Professions 

19          account to develop our own custom-built 

20          electronic licensing system.

21                 We want to thank the Governor for 

22          including this critical provision in his 

23          proposed budget this year, as well as the 

24          Assembly for including this in their 


 1          one-house the previous two years.  We hope 

 2          that the Senate will join the Assembly and 

 3          the Executive in supporting this, as it would 

 4          have no fiscal impact to the state.  Your 

 5          support would remove a significant barrier in 

 6          helping the department assist your 

 7          constituents by having a faster and more 

 8          efficient professional electronic licensing 

 9          system, rather than the largely paper-based 

10          system we now have.

11                 If we want to ensure that New York 

12          State is business-friendly, ensuring that our 

13          future doctors, nurses, accountants, and 

14          engineers are able to obtain their licenses 

15          in an efficient manner only makes sense.

16                 Before I take your questions, I want 

17          to once again thank you for all the 

18          opportunities we've had to discuss our 

19          priorities with you, and for your support 

20          last year.  We look forward to working with 

21          you again on our shared goals.  

22                 And thank you, and we can move to 

23          discussion now.

24                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  I 


 1          call upon our Higher Ed chair, Deborah Glick.

 2                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you, 

 3          Commissioner.  Just a few questions.

 4                 I know you said that there were, 

 5          overall, 37,000 students who are assisted by 

 6          a variety of different programs for 

 7          opportunity programs.

 8                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Yes.

 9                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  At some point if 

10          we could have a breakdown of how many 

11          students are in each of those groups, it 

12          would be helpful.

13                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Okay, we will 

14          provide that for you, and the differences in 

15          the various programs, and give you particular 

16          numbers that we have on students from each of 

17          the institutions that are serving them.

18                 I think it's an eye-opener in terms of 

19          those colleges and universities that really 

20          take this seriously and are very focused on 

21          it.  So we'll be happy to do that, and we'll 

22          provide it for everyone.

23                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  As well as for 

24          things like Liberty Partnership, how many --


 1                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Yes.

 2                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Because those 

 3          are -- and CSTEP, those are -- different 

 4          areas of the state maybe have a greater 

 5          participation rate.  

 6                 So we'd kind of like to understand -- 

 7          I personally believe that the opportunity 

 8          programs serve an incredible range of young 

 9          people and are vital to ensuring that we have 

10          a diverse college demographic, as well as 

11          encouraging kids who -- at a younger age to 

12          look at certain programs.

13                 Now, I know that everybody is into 

14          STEM.  I'm wondering what the department 

15          views as -- and what you're doing to deal 

16          with STEAM.

17                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  So STEM has now 

18          evolved to STEAM.  

19                 So we have focused -- in fact, some of 

20          the programs that you have, the Science and 

21          Technology Entry program, the STEP program 

22          and the CSTEP program, have a focus on STEAM.  

23          And we will be, in the next -- probably the 

24          next several months be rolling out an 


 1          opportunity for students to actually, in our 

 2          K-12 system, to be able to use an arts major 

 3          and certify and get their diploma through 

 4          that 4+1 category.  

 5                 So there's a number of things that 

 6          we're doing.  We've just recently adopted, in 

 7          K-12, the new art standards, so we're moving 

 8          on establishing them as well.

 9                 I have to say that when you look at 

10          the opportunity programs that we have in 

11          place and then you look at the graduation 

12          rates for those students, they're -- because 

13          of the support that they receive through 

14          these programs, it is clear that they have -- 

15          those programs are working in the fact that 

16          they have a high graduation rate compared to 

17          all of the other institutions and the 

18          students in the institutions where they're 

19          attending.  So those support programs are 

20          very powerful for students.

21                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  There's no 

22          question.  And I think that there are some 

23          institutions that have those programs and see 

24          the value of them and are trying to figure 


 1          out how they can, for students who have been 

 2          accepted without being part of those 

 3          programs, how some of their students who 

 4          appear after a year to be more at risk for 

 5          retention purposes, to apply some of those 

 6          same principles to giving supports to those 

 7          students who were otherwise accepted on their 

 8          own merits.  

 9                 And retention in the second year of 

10          college is a key indicator of whether 

11          somebody will succeed or not, and I've talked 

12          to a number of presidents who see the value 

13          particularly of their opportunity programs.

14                 When it comes to the e-licensing, 

15          obviously I'm very pleased to see that the 

16          resources that have been collected over a 

17          period of time for this purpose will be able 

18          to be directed, hopefully, at the end of the 

19          budget in that direction.  

20                 What is the projection of how long it 

21          will take to move towards e-licensing in 

22          those 20 licensed areas?

23                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Well, let me point 

24          out that that fund is now at $4.2 million and 


 1          that this is something that will take a 

 2          longer -- as you pointed out, this isn't 

 3          going to happen overnight.  We're building a 

 4          system that can support it.

 5                 I'm going to ask Doug Lentivech if he 

 6          could respond on the specific timeline.

 7                 DEP. COMMISSIONER LENTIVECH:  Yes, 

 8          thank you, Chair.

 9                 The 20 you speak about, these are 

10          online applications we have out there now so 

11          people don't have to put a postage stamp on 

12          things and do things they did a hundred years 

13          ago.  

14                 We're moving on a pretty rapid basis 

15          to get all of the 54.  It took 20 in, say, 

16          the last year, so, you know, we could do the 

17          math.  In the next couple of years it would 

18          be helpful to get all 54.  But the real bulk 

19          of the issue for the e-licensing program is 

20          to get the back-office stuff going on.  And 

21          that's so that, you know, nurses around the 

22          country, first, and then around the globe 

23          will be able to get information to us and 

24          they won't touch human hands.  


 1                 And, you know, eventually we will get 

 2          there.  But that's probably depending upon 

 3          what stage of the process -- if you're 

 4          talking about, say, New York nurses, that's 

 5          the easier lift, because they go to a program 

 6          in the state electronically connected to us, 

 7          they take an exam electronically connected to 

 8          us, and there's no experience requirement.  

 9          That's one you would expect to see in the 

10          first year or so after implementation.

11                 An engineer who's practiced in the 

12          U.K., now you're talking about a more 

13          difficult scenario.  But that's our plans.

14                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  So for the most 

15          difficult, maybe that's a five-year horizon, 

16          10-year horizon?  I'm just trying to 

17          understand.

18                 DEP. COMMISSIONER LENTIVECH:  Well, I 

19          would say probably, you know, five years gets 

20          us -- you know, I'm optimistic, although 

21          we've been at this since 1977.  But I'm 

22          optimistic here that we get the program, we 

23          start doing it, and in five years we're 

24          touching all the professions in ways that 


 1          we're licensing all the professions.

 2                 If you want to talk about those last 

 3          remnants, the very difficult cases, the 

 4          people that are educated and, you know, 

 5          seeking documentation from places that aren't 

 6          even hooked up to the internet, places that 

 7          are difficult to even find the schools, 

 8          they're not very comfortable with our 

 9          e-licensing system and the world is going to 

10          have to come up to them.  

11                 So, you know, I can't make a guess.  

12          I'm saying in five years we should be 

13          touching all the professions; in 10 years, 

14          hopefully, we're really running in the world.

15                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  So within about 

16          five years New York State residents will find 

17          themselves in most professions being able to 

18          make the application online.  And then your 

19          ability to move through that review will also 

20          theoretically be much more expedited because 

21          you'll have documentation submitted also -- 

22          not just an application, but the backup 

23          material will also be electronically 

24          transferred.  So that for New York State 


 1          residents, we should see a dramatic 

 2          improvement within the five-year period.

 3                 DEP. COMMISSIONER LENTIVECH:  Oh, I 

 4          would think so.  I think that's --

 5                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Much earlier than 

 6          that.

 7                 DEP. COMMISSIONER LENTIVECH:  Yeah, I 

 8          think maybe earlier than that.  

 9                 I think we are going to struggle -- 

10          and I have talked to other members of the 

11          committee about, you know, some of the most 

12          challenging aspects of licensing are for 

13          people that we're not even certain that the 

14          institution exists, and we use various 

15          methods to try to do that.  Those are always 

16          going to be a struggle for us.  

17                 But I think, you know, you take the 

18          group that can give you the most benefit -- 

19          there's 300,000 licensed nurses.  They're a 

20          big portion of what we do.  And the majority, 

21          the vast majority, come from New York.  So if 

22          you take care of licensed nurses coming from 

23          New York, you're talking about a lot of our 

24          licensed members.


 1                 So, you know, it's optimistic but I 

 2          think we'll -- I think we can put all the 

 3          resources that we saved on that on the next 

 4          level.  So we're optimistic.

 5                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  One last 

 6          question at this point.  The ability for the 

 7          department to review new programs that 

 8          colleges and universities -- they want to add 

 9          either a BA or an MA in a particular area 

10          which they had not previously been authorized 

11          to do so.  That has been an issue that has 

12          been raised over time, and some of it was, 

13          you know, a lack of personnel.

14                 I'm wondering where that stands and 

15          what your outlook is for the next year or 

16          two.

17                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  So I want to 

18          appreciate the support that a number of both 

19          Assemblymen and -women as well as our 

20          Senators have done in supporting the 

21          department and facilitating getting staff 

22          appointed through the Division of Budget.  

23          And we have in fact seen some support come 

24          through for us.  So in that particular 


 1          function that you're talking about, we have 

 2          been able to fill a number of positions.

 3                 As you're I'm sure aware -- and a 

 4          number of you have contacted us when there's 

 5          issues, and when we check back with John and 

 6          his staff, the reality is that very often the 

 7          process that's put in place -- that we have, 

 8          by the way, expedited, put reauthorizations 

 9          for various departments online, we have 

10          streamlined the application so that it's much 

11          easier now for them to do that.  And in fact 

12          I talked to Chancellor Johnson about looking 

13          at ways that we can continue that work of 

14          streamlining that process.

15                 But given all that, when the 

16          applications come to us and we're reviewing 

17          them, there very often is this give and take 

18          between the department staff going back and 

19          saying, We need to have additional 

20          information or additional guarantees on staff 

21          members that you may be putting in place to 

22          support the students in these programs.  And 

23          if that's missing, then it takes time between 

24          the two agencies to do that.


 1                 So we're working very hard to make it 

 2          as expedited as possible, but also make sure 

 3          that when a program is opened, that it in 

 4          fact can serve the students that it accepts 

 5          into that program well, and support them so 

 6          that they can graduate with a degree.

 7                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you very 

 8          much.

 9                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Thank you.

10                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Senator Stavisky.

11                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  I notice on your 

12          slide on page 19 that the licenses were 

13          processed within two weeks.  And 

14          incidentally, I know you mentioned in your 

15          testimony the increase in the licensure fees; 

16          that was my bill, almost ten years ago.  And 

17          I'm obviously concerned about the use of 

18          those fees.  

19                 Since the costs presumably are 

20          declining, it's costing less and less to 

21          process, and yet we increased the fees -- as 

22          we should have.  What is happening to those 

23          fees?  That's the first question.

24                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Well, right now 


 1          those fees are collected in an account, and 

 2          we don't have access to the ability to use 

 3          the fees.  So that's one of the reasons that 

 4          we're coming to you and supporting, in fact, 

 5          the ability for the department to use the 

 6          fees that have already been collected and 

 7          establish an e-licensing procedure that 

 8          ultimately would really make that a much more 

 9          efficient approach.

10                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Yup, I think that's 

11          reasonable.

12                 During the last two years of your 

13          testimony, I've asked about the foreign 

14          nurses.  We've brought this issue up twice; 

15          this is the third time.  And I thank the 

16          deputy commissioner for his responsiveness on 

17          that issue.  

18                 But there have been terrible delays 

19          when you use that foreign accrediting company 

20          called CGFNS.  And it's extremely difficult 

21          for the graduate of a legitimate foreign 

22          school who holds a bachelor's and a master's 

23          degree.  It happened to somebody I know very 

24          well.  She is from the Philippines, she has a 


 1          master's and a bachelor's degree from a very 

 2          legitimate university, and it took her almost 

 3          nine months to get the licensure approved by 

 4          SED because she was forced to go through this 

 5          licensure company.

 6                 And my suggestion to you is that you 

 7          should, I think, put the material from the 

 8          licensure, from this company that does the 

 9          foreign accreditation.  If it's online, then 

10          perhaps we might be able to speed up the 

11          process.

12                 I know that nurses pay something like 

13          $140; I don't remember the exact amount.  It 

14          costs $390 to use that accreditation company, 

15          and it doesn't work because they don't do 

16          what they're supposed to do.  And you're not 

17          allowed, according to the old website at SED, 

18          to contact them because then you would void 

19          the entire process completely.

20                 So this is something that perhaps the 

21          Commissioner would address and look at how we 

22          can make it easier.  And the reason I'm so 

23          concerned is that I represent a district in 

24          Queens that is really a high-immigrant 


 1          population, particularly from Asia.  And we 

 2          have many really wonderful people coming to 

 3          the United States with advanced degrees, and 

 4          we should be using them if there's a nursing 

 5          shortage.  It ought to be addressed.

 6                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Well, I appreciate 

 7          your comment.  I remember last year you 

 8          brought it to us, and Doug and I had specific 

 9          conversations about it.  We changed the 

10          website in many areas.  We are still making 

11          updates in our website.  

12                 And one of the other things that we 

13          did was that we took away that requirement 

14          that they had to have gone through that other 

15          agency.  But it doesn't take away our 

16          responsibility to make sure that they in fact 

17          have the requisite training so that we can 

18          license them.

19                 So you're absolutely right, Senator 

20          Stavisky, that is an issue for us.  And as we 

21          are becoming more attuned to how we can get 

22          -- how we can find agencies that either are 

23          good and responsible about getting those 

24          records to us, or we can encourage 


 1          individuals who are trying to get their 

 2          certifications and licensure to come and work 

 3          with us closely.  

 4                 I know that Doug has taken specific 

 5          time working with some of the individuals 

 6          that are here in areas -- as you pointed out, 

 7          nursing is one of the ones that we need staff 

 8          across the state, and actually across the 

 9          country.  So it does open up lots of 

10          opportunities.  It's an issue and a challenge 

11          for us that we know we have to take on.

12                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.

13                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

14                 Assemblywoman Hooper.

15                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HOOPER:  Thank you.

16                 Commissioner, thank you so very much 

17          for being here today.  It's a delight to see 

18          you here.

19                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Thank you very 

20          much.

21                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HOOPER:  I want to 

22          really impart to you how much I appreciate 

23          what you have been doing -- certainly it's 

24          probably statewide, what is happening in the 


 1          Hempstead Union Free School District.  And 

 2          your input, your staff, your communication 

 3          with me, ongoing, your tenacity is greatly 

 4          appreciated, and it's felt.

 5                 And I want to apprise you and to 

 6          assure you that I look forward to working 

 7          with you as we begin to turn around these 

 8          long-term, overdue issues that permeate the 

 9          inability for students to get education in 

10          that district, as well as the professionals 

11          and the support staff who have a right to ply 

12          their trades.

13                 I encourage your continued attention.  

14          I thank you for going to the district last 

15          week and speaking to the appropriate persons.  

16          And I want to assure you that it would be 

17          unfair for me to ask you to give me a 

18          detailed premature outcome of what you have 

19          so far begun, but I want you to know that we 

20          in the Hempstead community look forward to 

21          working with you, and we thank you for 

22          working with us to assure that this is 

23          resolved once and for all.

24                 Thank you so much for being here.


 1                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Well, I appreciate 

 2          your comments, Deputy Speaker Hooper.  And as 

 3          we've talked, I am committed to the Hempstead 

 4          School District and to the work that my staff 

 5          and I are doing there.  And we believe we'll 

 6          be moving forward.

 7                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HOOPER:  Thank you 

 8          kindly.  Good to see you.

 9                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Thank you.

10                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HOOPER:  And please let 

11          the persons who work with you, Bianchi and 

12          the other staff and the Deputy Commissioner 

13          and Rosa, I thank them very, very much for 

14          all the help we're getting from the State 

15          Education Department.  Again, thank you.

16                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Thanks.

17                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you, 

18          Commissioner.  

19                 I just have a couple of questions.  

20          And they're really less budget-related than 

21          they are issues that come under your purview.  

22          As you may or may not know, in 2014 

23          Assemblymember Gottfried and I sponsored the 

24          Compassionate Care Act in New York State, 


 1          which is the program that created medical 

 2          marijuana.  And I realize now that I'm 

 3          probably going to spend the rest of my career 

 4          working on that program.  It's like an onion; 

 5          we just keep peeling back layers.  So we're 

 6          constantly finding new areas that we have to 

 7          work on.

 8                 One of the issues that came to our 

 9          attention in the past year is many of the 

10          patients are children, and they attend 

11          schools.  And so they're attending school and 

12          they're certified medical marijuana patients, 

13          they bring their medication with them, but 

14          nurses in many of the schools were afraid to 

15          dispense it because they felt that there was 

16          a conflict with their license.

17                 Now, I know recently your department, 

18          your deputy counsel issued a response to our 

19          request for clarification about nurses who 

20          were dispensing medical marijuana in -- 

21          whether it's a school or somewhere else, that 

22          the department won't hold that against them, 

23          that it won't be considered illegal.  And I 

24          thank you for that; it's very important.  


 1                 What I would ask you to do, though, is 

 2          to more widely distribute that to school 

 3          districts around the state because we are 

 4          constantly getting requests from schools to 

 5          clarify this policy.  

 6                 And then there's also the issue that 

 7          some nurses and some practitioners may not 

 8          want to participate in the program, and 

 9          that's fine.  They're allowed to refuse to do 

10          so.  But then there has to be some way that a 

11          student who attends school, brings their 

12          legal medical marijuana medication with them, 

13          is able to have it administered to them.  

14                 Some school districts have suggested 

15          the parents come to school, which may be -- 

16          it may not be possible.  I got a letter from 

17          one school that was really struggling with 

18          how to solve this, but they believed that 

19          even if they allowed a parent to attend the 

20          time of day that the child needed to have 

21          their medication dispensed, that they would 

22          have to remove the child from the school a 

23          thousand feet away so as not to conflict with 

24          the federal Drug-Free School Act.


 1                 So again, any effort that your 

 2          department can play in clarifying and widely 

 3          distributing the answer to this -- because I 

 4          believe as the program grows and more 

 5          children are enrolled in it, it's going to 

 6          become a bigger problem.  So I think clarity 

 7          is critically important in a program like 

 8          this.

 9                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  When that was 

10          brought to us, as you pointed out, we did a 

11          clarification.  We also distributed that 

12          clarification to every district in New York 

13          State.

14                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Good, thank you.

15                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  So letting us know 

16          that we have an issue with people not 

17          understanding or perhaps not seeing it, we 

18          will move forward on that.  I do understand 

19          the situation.

20                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you.

21                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

22          Nolan.

23                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NOLAN:   Thank you.  So 

24          glad to see the Commissioner here --


 1                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Great to see you.

 2                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NOLAN:  -- and with the 

 3          full support of Chancellor Rosa and so many 

 4          members of the Board of Regents and your 

 5          wonderful staff.  I see Jen -- tireless 

 6          workers, Jen {inaudible} from this 

 7          department.  

 8                 So really glad to be here on a great 

 9          day with women leading all over the place -- 

10          chancellors, commissioners, chairs of 

11          committees.  It's very exciting after so many 

12          years of sitting here when it was different.

13                 But I have one quick question about 

14          the Bridge to College and Careers Pilot 

15          Program.  And you were nice enough to give a 

16          shout-out to LaGuardia Community College, 

17          which does such a wonderful job.  And you're 

18          requesting $3 million, and I guess I'd like 

19          on the record, where is it in the budget 

20          proposal?

21                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  It is in one of 

22          the agendas that we have --

23                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NOLAN:  Right.  But is 

24          it in the Executive's proposal?


 1                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  No, it's not in 

 2          the Executive proposals.  Thank you for 

 3          pointing that out.  

 4                 We would like it to be in everyone's 

 5          proposal.  We think that this is a great 

 6          opportunity.  And I believe that you -- you 

 7          actually were the one that facilitated the 

 8          meeting that I had at LaGuardia concerning 

 9          their program and reviewing it.  And they 

10          have incredible data to show the success of 

11          that program, and that really led to the 

12          Regents feeling that this was a great model 

13          for us to attempt to take across the state.

14                 So up to 10 districts would be able to 

15          put that Bridge program in place and use the 

16          LaGuardia model.

17                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN NOLAN:  Well, we're 

18          excited about it.  

19                 You know, the Governor was visiting 

20          LaGuardia just last year to announce his 

21          college tuition program, and I know that, you 

22          know, we'd be happy to continue to press him 

23          to support the College and Career Program, 

24          the Bridge to College Readiness Program.  


 1          It's an outstanding thing.  Disappointing it 

 2          wasn't in the budget, but you know, the 

 3          Legislature -- I know Assemblywoman Glick has 

 4          made it a priority, and certainly adult ed is 

 5          a priority of mine, representing many people 

 6          in my district who continue to struggle later 

 7          in life, maybe not having the skills to read 

 8          and write well in English.  

 9                 So we thank you for the work you do, 

10          and thanks for the shout-out for LaGuardia, 

11          and all the Regents that are here, all these 

12          hardworking -- I don't want Bill Colton to 

13          feel bad.  We've got a lot of hardworking 

14          women at the panel here, and it's exciting -- 

15          a few others.  But very excited to be here 

16          today, and congratulations to you again, 

17          Commissioner, for your work.

18                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Thank you, Chair 

19          Nolan.

20                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

21                 Senator Krueger.

22                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Thank you.

23                 And I'm sorry, I had to run out for a 

24          sub meeting.


 1                 So in your material -- and if someone 

 2          asked while I was gone, just tell me too 

 3          late, I missed it.  But in your materials you 

 4          talk about the data on if you have a college 

 5          degree, if you don't, your first slide.  And 

 6          then I think your second and third slides.

 7                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Right.

 8                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  And the data appears 

 9          to be from national statistics.  Are those 

10          New York-specific data pulled out of a larger 

11          national statistical bank?

12                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  So the references 

13          are on each specific slide.  The first slide 

14          specifically is from the National Center for 

15          Education Statistics, and that's the national 

16          view.  And that's the most up-to-date; it's 

17          2017.

18                 And then when you look on the second 

19          page, the most up-to-date that we have there 

20          is the new skills at work, and it looks 

21          specifically for New Yorkers.  And the source 

22          is "Closing America's Skills Gap:  A Business 

23          Roundtable Vision and Action Plan."  However, 

24          that is not updated from the 2014.  So that's 


 1          the most up-to-date information there.

 2                 And then the next one is actually the 

 3          College Access & Completion Matters, and that 

 4          is from Career Outlook from the U.S. Bureau 

 5          of Labor Statistics, and again that's a 2017.

 6                 So two of them are very, very current, 

 7          and one of them is from 2014.

 8                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  So my reason for 

 9          asking whether we had New York-specific data, 

10          I was wondering whether you can then in fact 

11          go in and see by institution or field.  

12          Because we talk about you have X degree and 

13          it means Y, but it doesn't always mean Y.  It 

14          could mean, you know, one-half of Y, or 3 

15          times Y.

16                 And do we do anything where we look at 

17          the correlation of specific kinds of degrees 

18          or specific degrees from specific 

19          institutions and outcomes?

20                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Well, let me point 

21          out, in my experience that really should be a 

22          requirement that is placed on those 

23          institutions that give the degrees.  And one 

24          of our issues that we have in New York is we 


 1          aren't always connected.

 2                 And so you have degree-granting 

 3          institutions where we don't know exactly what 

 4          jobs the person may go into, what 

 5          opportunities they've had after they've 

 6          received their degree.  And I know that I've 

 7          had conversations with SUNY and CUNY about 

 8          the need for a connected data system so that 

 9          we have that kind of data and we can make 

10          decisions and you can make decisions based on 

11          where we can really target and know where we 

12          have to put programs that will support 

13          students to complete and then, once they 

14          complete, to get into the job market.

15                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  So yesterday I 

16          participated with some colleagues and the 

17          Erie County D.A. in a press conference about 

18          the fact that private schools in New York -- 

19          this would be K through 12, even though this 

20          is a higher ed hearing, but you're both -- 

21          don't have to report as mandatory reporters 

22          when there are abuse situations.  And I'm 

23          curious what the SED's position is, either 

24          for colleges or for the K-12 world about 


 1          people who receive state money having to 

 2          report when they know that there's abuse 

 3          going on.

 4                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  I'm adamant that 

 5          that should be a requirement across the 

 6          state.

 7                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  And is it a 

 8          requirement for our colleges?

 9                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  We have the 

10          college program Enough is Enough that was 

11          passed at -- in fact, that's the Campus 

12          Sexual Assault Prevention Act that was 

13          passed.

14                 There are multiple agencies that work 

15          to support that, including the Division of 

16          State Police, the services of the rape crisis 

17          centers across the state, and college 

18          campuses themselves.  SED's role in that is 

19          to collect the data and then make that 

20          available.  

21                 And since this program was put in 

22          place -- it was passed in 2015 -- there was a 

23          lag time of getting all of those different 

24          agencies on page.  We are now -- I think 


 1          we're in the process of putting out an 

 2          interim report on where we are, but we'll 

 3          have the full report in September -- October 

 4          of this year.

 5                 But yes, we do believe that we have 

 6          covered the colleges, but we don't have those 

 7          same rules in place for other schools.

 8                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  And you talk 

 9          about -- I'm sorry, on page 16, disciplinary 

10          investigations completed, 6,576.  Are these 

11          on individuals that are licensed in 

12          professions, or institutions, or some 

13          combination?  What does that data actually 

14          mean?

15                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  So your referral 

16          was to the disciplinary investigations 

17          completed?

18                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Yes, it's on 

19          page 16, "Professions 2017 Results."

20                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Okay.  Doug?

21                 DEP. COMMISSIONER LENTIVECH:  Yeah, 

22          those are -- we have disciplinary authority 

23          over primarily individuals, but also we have 

24          disciplinary authority over professional 


 1          corporations, pharmacy registrants, that sort 

 2          of thing.

 3                 This is the totality of anybody that 

 4          calls us on all those things, but the 

 5          overwhelming majority is individuals.  The 

 6          majority is individuals, but we do have 

 7          authority over corporations.  If a pharmacist 

 8          is the supervising pharmacist of a pharmacy, 

 9          they will both end up being disciplinary 

10          cases, they will both be investigated.  But 

11          most of our cases are individuals.  Most of 

12          our licensees are nurses, so they make up 

13          close to 40-some percent, and those are all 

14          individuals.

15                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Thank you.  Thank 

16          you.

17                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

18          Hyndman.

19                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Thank you very 

20          much, Chancellor Elia.  Thank you for coming 

21          to Queens on behalf of Chairwoman Nolan, and 

22          just the work that you're doing throughout 

23          the state.  I think you're bringing a breath 

24          of fresh air, and you're very accessible.  


 1          And thank you to Jennifer and your staff, 

 2          who's been helpful in answering my questions.

 3                 Just kind of along the lines of what 

 4          Senator Krueger was asking when it comes to 

 5          the proprietary school sector, you're dealing 

 6          with a lot of private schools, but at the 

 7          same time they are subject to rules and 

 8          regulations.  What if anything is being done 

 9          regarding sexual harassment reporting?  

10                 Or if nothing's being done, is that 

11          something we can work on making sure that the 

12          schools put something in their catalog or 

13          printed materials what their policies are and 

14          what reporting they will be doing regarding 

15          sexual harassment, whether it's staff or 

16          students?  

17                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  So Jen just 

18          informed me, the Enough is Enough campus 

19          sexual assault prevention and reporting is 

20          for degree-granting institutions.  And not 

21          all of the proprietary schools are 

22          degree-granting.  So there is that issue that 

23          some are and some are not.  

24                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  So my question 


 1          is, don't you think that this sector -- that 

 2          has over 400 schools with over 15,000 

 3          students throughout New York State -- should 

 4          have some type of reporting in place or 

 5          policy looked at regarding those schools?  

 6                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Well, I do.  And 

 7          that gets back to Senator Krueger's comment.  

 8          I do believe that that should be part of what 

 9          is an overall review of what's happening in 

10          our campuses.  So the fact that we have a 

11          group that are not, I would suggest that that 

12          be addressed. 

13                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Okay.  My 

14          other question is I notice in the handout 

15          there's no place at all that speaks to those 

16          schools, the proprietary sector, at all.  And 

17          those schools do generate revenue which is -- 

18          which they are assessed on through assessment 

19          and fees.  And their budget is swept every 

20          time there's a -- usually during the budget 

21          process, they are swept.  

22                 You didn't include any of that 

23          information in this report.  Is it not 

24          relevant or is it not part of this --


 1                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  So we didn't have 

 2          any specific references to proprietary 

 3          schools.  We do have data on proprietary 

 4          schools, and we'd be happy to provide that to 

 5          you.

 6                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN:  Okay, thank 

 7          you.

 8                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  We'll make sure 

 9          you get that.

10                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

11                 Hi.  I just wanted to say hello.  I 

12          apologize, I had to duck out to go over to 

13          the chamber for session.  But I just wanted 

14          to say so glad that you're here, and I look 

15          forward to the Education Hearing also.

16                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  Thank you.

17                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

18          Thank you for being here also, and we'll see 

19          you next week.

20                 COMMISSIONER ELIA:  That's it.  Next 

21          week.

22                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So next we have 

23          the New York State Higher Education Services 

24          Corporation, Elsa Magee, executive vice 


 1          president.

 2                 Whenever you're ready.

 3                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  Good 

 4          afternoon, Chairwoman Young, Chairwoman 

 5          Weinstein, Chairperson Glick, and members of 

 6          the Senate and Assembly.  Thank you for the 

 7          opportunity to speak today about the 

 8          Governor's 2018-2019 Executive Budget 

 9          recommendations that impact the New York 

10          State Higher Education Services Corporation, 

11          or HESC.

12                 I'm Elsa Magee, executive vice 

13          president of HESC, and today I'm providing 

14          testimony on behalf of Acting President 

15          Dr. Guillermo Linares.  

16                 HESC does not participate in the 

17          policy-making process but is instead 

18          responsible for administering more than two 

19          dozen New York State student financial aid 

20          and college access programs that help to ease 

21          college costs for New York State residents.  

22          Collectively, these programs provide nearly 

23          $1.1 billion in financial aid awards to 

24          support the costs of approximately 


 1          400,000 students who are attending public and 

 2          private colleges inside our state.  This 

 3          includes roughly $750 million for students 

 4          attending public colleges and over 

 5          $300 million for students attending a private 

 6          college.  

 7                 Governor Cuomo's 2018-2019 Executive 

 8          Budget continues to ensure all New Yorkers 

 9          can go to college and achieve their dreams by 

10          providing full support for all existing state 

11          grant, scholarship and loan forgiveness 

12          programs.  

13                 Last year, building on the state's 

14          generous tuition assistance programs, the 

15          Governor launched the Excelsior Scholarship, 

16          which provided tuition-free college for 

17          middle-class families.  The first-of-its-kind 

18          program in the nation covers tuition at New 

19          York’s public colleges and universities to 

20          families making up to $125,000 a year, 

21          ensuring this year that more than 53 percent 

22          of full-time SUNY and CUNY in-state students 

23          are going to school tuition-free.  For 

24          2018-2019, the Excelsior Scholarship will 


 1          enter the second of its three-year phase-in, 

 2          under which the income eligibility threshold 

 3          will increase to allow New Yorkers with 

 4          household incomes up to $110,000 to be 

 5          eligible to attend a public college 

 6          tuition-free, and ensure that more families 

 7          have access to a quality education and the 

 8          skills needed to succeed in the 21st-century 

 9          economy.  

10                 To continue this landmark program, the 

11          Executive Budget includes $118 million to 

12          support 27,000 students in the Excelsior 

13          Scholarship program in 2018-2019 and provides 

14          $22.9 million for the Enhanced Tuition Awards 

15          program.  

16                 Each year, many talented students 

17          remain unable to fulfill their potential 

18          because they lack access to tuition 

19          assistance to help pay for college.  The 

20          Governor's 2018-2019 budget proposal 

21          reintroduces the DREAM Act and includes 

22          $27 million to open the doors of higher 

23          education to thousands of New Yorkers.  

24                 At a time when a college education is 


 1          more important than ever, student debt 

 2          continues to reach record highs, accounting 

 3          for 10 percent of our nation’s debt balance 

 4          and amounting to $1.48 trillion.  To combat 

 5          the exploding student debt, the Governor has 

 6          proposed a series of new reforms that will be 

 7          managed by the New York State Department of 

 8          Financial Services, which I'd like to 

 9          highlight briefly including the creation of a 

10          Student Loan Ombudsman; requiring that all 

11          New York State colleges annually provide 

12          students with estimated amounts incurred for 

13          student loans; increasing consumer protection 

14          standards throughout the student loan 

15          industry, including requiring student loan 

16          servicers to be licensed, and including 

17          consumer protections for student debt 

18          consultants to operate in NY State; and, 

19          fourth, prohibiting the suspension of 

20          professional licenses of individuals who are 

21          behind or in default on their student loans.  

22          Through these measures, the Governor will 

23          ensure that current and future New Yorkers 

24          are protected.  


 1                 In closing, Governor Cuomo is leading 

 2          the nation in expanding access to a quality 

 3          and affordable college education. The 

 4          2018-2019 Executive Budget increases state 

 5          support for higher education to $7.5 billion, 

 6          an increase of $1.4 billion -- or 24 percent 

 7          -- since fiscal year 2012.  Under his 

 8          leadership, New York has implemented an 

 9          unprecedented number of new and strategic 

10          student financial aid programs and 

11          initiatives to make college more affordable 

12          and encourage the best and brightest students 

13          to build their future in New York, including 

14          the landmark Excelsior Scholarship, the 

15          Enhanced Tuition Awards Program, the STEM 

16          Incentive Program, the NYS Get On Your Feet 

17          Loan Forgiveness Program, the 

18          Masters-in-Education Teacher Incentive 

19          Scholarship, and the New York State Standard 

20          Financial Aid Award Letter. His 

21          recommendations for higher education programs 

22          continue to pave a path to an affordable and 

23          high quality college education.  

24                 The 2018-2019 Executive Budget enables 


 1          HESC to continue administering an array of 

 2          programs and services that support the 

 3          attainment of a college degree for all 

 4          New York State students.  On behalf of 

 5          Governor Cuomo, HESC is pleased to play a 

 6          vital role in providing New York State's 

 7          students with a gateway to a successful 

 8          college career.  

 9                 Thank you, and I'd be happy to answer 

10          any questions.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

12                 Assemblywoman Glick.

13                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Good afternoon.

14                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  Good 

15          afternoon.

16                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  And thank you 

17          for your assistance in understanding some of 

18          the more arcane portions of the TAP program.

19                 Not only do you administer TAP and now 

20          Excelsior, but there are a host of smaller 

21          programs -- I don't expect you to have that 

22          information with you today, but if you could 

23          provide the committee with an understanding 

24          of -- I mean, we see the numbers, but how 


 1          many students are assisted in each of those 

 2          individual scholarship or loan forgiveness 

 3          programs?  That would be helpful for us to 

 4          understand the context.

 5                 Somewhere between 22,000 and 23,000 

 6          students are being assisted by Excelsior.  

 7          How many applications did HESC receive?

 8                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  So we 

 9          received 95,000 applications for students 

10          applying for Excelsior.  46,000 students are 

11          actually eligible, they meet the eligibility 

12          requirement.  Roughly half of those, 23,000, 

13          had their tuition covered through programs 

14          such as TAP and Pell, and 23,000 had 

15          remaining tuition expense which is being 

16          covered by Excelsior.

17                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  What was the 

18          last thing you said?

19                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  23,000  

20          students are having their tuitions covered by 

21          Excelsior, but there are actually 46,000 

22          students who are eligible.

23                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  And what 

24          happened to the other 23,000?  


 1                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  23,000 

 2          students had their tuitions covered through 

 3          programs such as TAP and Pell.  When they 

 4          combined those awards, it was already 

 5          covering their tuition.  

 6                 But those students would not have to 

 7          apply again if their other awards were 

 8          reduced; they would then simply be receiving 

 9          awards.  So we have the potential for 46,000 

10          students to be receiving a payment under the 

11          program.

12                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  There may have 

13          been some students who were in the other 

14          upper ranges of income who wouldn't qualify 

15          for Pell but might qualify for some TAP but 

16          not a lot.  At some point if the committee 

17          could sort of see what that distribution was 

18          like for Excelsior, that would be helpful.  

19          Obviously there were lots of students who 

20          applied who were above the 80,000, so they 

21          would never have gotten any TAP, but there 

22          were folks along that continuum.

23                 So at some point we'd really like to 

24          understand the distribution that actually 


 1          occurred.

 2                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  And we're 

 3          still working through the process.  We're now 

 4          just certifying the first fall semester 

 5          recipients.  But once we have a full year's 

 6          data, we can certainly provide it by income 

 7          range for you.

 8                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  That's great.  

 9          Thank you.

10                 Along with that, since we believe that 

11          computers can help you do anything, 

12          understanding how many were new students and 

13          how many were current students who may have 

14          been sophomores or juniors or what have 

15          you -- we'd like that distribution as well.  

16          We really want to get a good handle on who 

17          was actually participating and if somebody 

18          was near the end of their college career, 

19          that would perhaps open up more resources for 

20          students coming in at some point.  

21                 So we'd like to see all of those 

22          distributions when you have the full 

23          shake-out.

24                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  We can 


 1          certainly do that.

 2                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Now, because it 

 3          was a large onslaught -- we recognize it was 

 4          an overwhelming avalanche -- how long did it 

 5          take for the bulk of students to get 

 6          notified?

 7                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  It ranged.  

 8          There were students who were notified within 

 9          days of applying because they were, as you 

10          can expect, new students.  Once they were 

11          verified that they did not previously attend 

12          colleges and these were first-time freshmen, 

13          they could receive notification.

14                 But then we also had students who were 

15          looking to catch up on credits during the 

16          summer.  So it took us until -- schools not 

17          able to really verify until the end of August 

18          whether these students had earned enough 

19          credits to become eligible.  So it ranged 

20          greatly depending on a particular student's 

21          situation.

22                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  I was in touch 

23          with folks -- both the Governor's office and 

24          at HESC.  It seemed there were about 6,000 


 1          students in October who still weren't sure 

 2          whether they were in or out.  What accounted 

 3          for that?

 4                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  We worked 

 5          with SUNY and CUNY, who was looking to do the 

 6          verification.  The holdup was really in being 

 7          able to verify credits that the student was 

 8          earning.  There were some students who had 

 9          been doing study abroad, and it was our 

10          understanding that it takes longer for the 

11          credit information to come for study-abroad 

12          students.

13                 There were students that we were still 

14          waiting for information on where income may 

15          not have been able to be verified for various 

16          reasons.  So we did, you know, numerous 

17          outreach to students where we could triage if 

18          we were still waiting for income information.  

19          There were students who it was unclear 

20          whether they were state residents, they met 

21          the 12 continuous months, where they had to 

22          provide supporting documentation.

23                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Going forward, 

24          having had this experience, are there things 


 1          that HESC believes it can or should do to 

 2          improve the application information -- or the 

 3          criteria, I guess is what I'm saying, the 

 4          eligibility criteria.  

 5                 Because it seems that there were -- if 

 6          you're saying that, well, 23,000 were 

 7          accepted and there were 23,000 others who 

 8          could have been if it hadn't been for the 

 9          fact they were already getting full 

10          assistance -- so between 95,000 and 46,000, 

11          there are tens of thousands of families and 

12          youngsters who may have thought that they 

13          were eligible but for some reason weren't.  

14          That could have been -- some of it could be 

15          accounted for:  You know, apply, throw it 

16          over the wall and hope.  And then there were 

17          some who perhaps could not figure out clearly 

18          what the criteria was and whether they 

19          actually met it.

20                 So what has HESC done to figure that 

21          out and do a better job of making it clear to 

22          students who are perhaps in school now, and 

23          those who are new students, whether they have 

24          a good chance of being part of the Excelsior 


 1          Scholarship?

 2                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  Well, our 

 3          experience with Excelsior just in this first 

 4          term alone shows it's consistent with our 

 5          experience with the TAP program.  Which after 

 6          45 years, we're still seeing a roughly 50 

 7          percent approval ratio of students who are 

 8          applying for TAP.  

 9                 The reasons for the ineligibility is 

10          very consistent -- including residency, 

11          income -- between TAP and Excelsior.  But as 

12          far as notification of students, I think what 

13          -- we provide full information on our 

14          website.  I think one thing that we know is 

15          that the generation of students that we work 

16          with are less likely to read, so we are going 

17          to be making information available via video 

18          as to what the eligibility requirements are 

19          for the programs, in the hopes that people 

20          will, you know, be able to get a better 

21          understanding from the videos if they're not 

22          looking to go read all of the information 

23          that we make available as to the eligibility 

24          requirements.  


 1                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  And I probably 

 2          should have done this before the hearing, but 

 3          I didn't go on the website to see whether 

 4          it's updated or not.  I know that over time 

 5          there have been some additional programs that 

 6          have been added, and they sort of got added 

 7          at the bottom after the how do you get -- you 

 8          know, re pay.  So people who may have been 

 9          looking didn't look all the way down.  

10                 Have you reconfigured the website so 

11          that all of the programs are higher up so 

12          that anybody looking at the website will know 

13          all of the options that are available?

14                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  From our 

15          website, if you're looking to look for 

16          scholarships to pay for college, there is a 

17          tab that goes to pay, how to pay for college.  

18          And when you click on that, you will see all 

19          of our grant programs and then you can look 

20          for all of our scholarships as well.  

21                 But you would be able to find the 

22          Excelsior Scholarship and Enhanced Tuition 

23          Scholarships easily from our site.

24                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Well, what I was 


 1          thinking of were some of the -- there was a 

 2          veteran program and the foster youth, which 

 3          at some point was added on and actually 

 4          didn't pop up immediately on the tabs.  So 

 5          you're saying that's been corrected.

 6                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  I'll take a 

 7          look to see where the veterans and foster 

 8          youth programs are.  But I know the 

 9          scholarships are all listed under "How to pay 

10          for college."

11                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you.

12                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  

13                 Well, welcome, Executive Vice 

14          President Magee.  We're glad to have you here 

15          today.  

16                 And I would like to piggyback on 

17          Assemblywoman Glick's comments, first of all, 

18          regarding the Excelsior program.

19                 And it recently came to my attention 

20          that there was a FOIL document that was 

21          submitted and that it revealed that Empire 

22          State Development spent $3 million last May 

23          and June in marketing Excelsior.  And while 

24          those dollars aren't HESC dollars, there is a 


 1          concern to Assemblywoman Glick's point that 

 2          there are several programs that operate under 

 3          HESC that maybe aren't being marketed as they 

 4          should be so that people know about them.  

 5                 So one, for example, that we've heard 

 6          from advocates about has to do with the 

 7          social work loan forgiveness program and 

 8          marketing that.  So there is kind of a little 

 9          alluding in the Governor's Executive proposal 

10          that there would be an internal review of 

11          marketing for HESC programs.  Can you tell us 

12          about that, what that might entail?

13                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  Well, we 

14          currently do not have funding that's targeted 

15          for advertising, currently for any of our 

16          programs.  We typically work with sectors 

17          like licensed social workers.  We do work 

18          with the professional organizations for 

19          licensed social workers, to spread the word 

20          about the program, and they tend to be more 

21          targeted.  

22                 We similarly work with the Department 

23          of Ag and Markets and the farming industry to 

24          advertise information about the young 


 1          farmers' loan forgiveness programs.  

 2                 So we have really tried to engage with 

 3          the professional organizations for these 

 4          specific programs to ensure that anyone who 

 5          would be eligible for the program would be 

 6          aware of it, especially when the time frame 

 7          for applying is limited.  We make sure we 

 8          notify them in time, just ahead of when the 

 9          application becomes available each year.

10                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you for that 

11          answer.

12                 As far as the Excelsior program goes, 

13          it seems to me that there was a lot of 

14          confusion when it was first rolled out.  And 

15          it also seems to me that the most effective 

16          entities that you can deal with to educate 

17          students about the program would be guidance 

18          counselors.  Instead of spending $3 million, 

19          for example -- I know it wasn't your money -- 

20          but spending $3 million on TV ads, that it 

21          should be outreach about educating guidance 

22          counselors.  

23                 Is HESC doing anything along those 

24          lines?


 1                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  Yes, we 

 2          work directly with guidance counselors to 

 3          inform them about the programs, and that was 

 4          done for both Excelsior and ETA.  

 5                 For Excelsior, there were also emails 

 6          sent to every high school junior and senior 

 7          who took the SAT or PSAT exam, so they 

 8          directly received information.  Families were 

 9          informed through school portals as well as 

10          about the program and the eligibility 

11          requirements for the program, so there was --

12                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Okay, so that's an 

13          ongoing thing, that you continue to talk to.  

14          How do you communicate with them?  Is it 

15          through emails, or --

16                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  We provide 

17          newsletters.  We're actually working with 

18          school district superintendents now to make 

19          sure that we're touching every guidance 

20          counselor, because right now we contact those 

21          who notify us.  But now we're going to just 

22          be more proactive to ensure that we have, 

23          from school districts, the contact 

24          information for every guidance counselor, so 


 1          everyone is sure to know about the programs.

 2                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  And I 

 3          would encourage you to continue to do that, 

 4          because that makes a lot of sense.

 5                 Switching gears, Senator LaValle, as 

 6          you know, is our chair of the Higher 

 7          Education Committee in the Senate, and one of 

 8          his priorities last year during the budget 

 9          negotiations was developing an award to 

10          provide assistance to students attending 

11          community college on a part-time basis.  As 

12          we know, oftentimes students at community 

13          colleges are what we would term 

14          nontraditional students -- maybe they're 

15          older, maybe they've lost their job and they 

16          need to develop new work skills, and they may 

17          have the demands of a family or not enough 

18          resources to go to school full-time.  So we 

19          put $3.1 million in the budget for this 

20          program last year.  

21                 But although the Governor's proposal 

22          actually appropriates an additional 

23          $3.1 million for the program, it's my 

24          understanding that the HESC governing board 


 1          has not approved any regulations allowing the 

 2          program to be created.  And it's been eight 

 3          months since the board approved regulations 

 4          to establish the Excelsior Scholarship and 

 5          Enhanced Tuition Award last May, and over 

 6          nine months since the scholarship program was 

 7          actually enacted into law.  

 8                 So the question that I have is when 

 9          can we expect the part-time program to be put 

10          into place, established and off the ground?  

11                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  The program 

12          will be put in place this semester.  We have 

13          been providing information on our website 

14          about the program.  We have students or 

15          parents who want to register to be notified 

16          as soon as the application becomes available.  

17                 We -- the application will be 

18          available -- we hope to meet soon with the 

19          board and we're ready to launch the program.  

20          And when we do launch the program, students 

21          will be getting the awards retroactive for 

22          the whole year.  No one will be harmed.

23                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Oh, okay, so that 

24          was a question.  


 1                 Is there any particular issue that 

 2          held up the implementation?

 3                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  No, we've 

 4          just been working through the regulations for 

 5          the program.  And again, we're trying to make 

 6          sure as we roll out each new program, we 

 7          streamline the process as much as possible so 

 8          we're prepared to move quickly.

 9                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  I'm 

10          glad to hear you say that it would be 

11          retroactive, I think that's really good.

12                 So when can we realistically expect 

13          students to benefit?  Because you said this 

14          semester.  But do you have kind of a target 

15          date that you're working toward?  

16                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  We would 

17          hope -- we can roll it out as soon as we have 

18          our board meeting.  We're ready to roll it 

19          out the next day.  So we're hoping very soon.

20                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  When is your board 

21          meeting?  

22                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  We're 

23          looking to schedule a board meeting within 

24          the next week or two.


 1                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Great, okay.  Well, 

 2          thank you very much.

 3                 Oh, we're back to the Senate.  Very 

 4          good.  Senator Stavisky.

 5                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.  And 

 6          thank you for your explanations for many 

 7          issues, and your experience, which is really 

 8          invaluable.  

 9                 One question.  What is happening to 

10          student debt?  And do you track the 

11          individual students and help them understand 

12          the financial implications?

13                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:  As a 

14          guaranty agency, we guarantee federal student 

15          loans.  What we are finding is that -- what 

16          we're seeing at our agency is that 

17          students who are going into default -- 

18          there's fewer going into default, but the 

19          volume of debt that they carry is larger.  

20                 What we try to inform students of is 

21          the availability of the many income-driven 

22          repayment programs that are available through 

23          the federal government, where no one really 

24          should be struggling to repay their student 


 1          loans.  These programs, you can pay as little 

 2          as zero or up to 10 to 15 percent of your 

 3          disposable income.  

 4                 So that's what -- we try to encourage 

 5          everyone, before they enter into default, to 

 6          take advantage of these programs.

 7                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.

 8                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  

 9                 Senator Krueger.

10                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Hi.  So about a 

11          month ago, Congress proposed a bill they're 

12          calling PROSPER, 542 pages.  It covers 

13          everything from free speech on campus to the 

14          application for federal aid.  It calls for 

15          reducing the number of federal loan types, 

16          capping the amount graduate students and 

17          parents can borrow, changing the current 

18          suite of student loan options, doing away 

19          with the rules that the last administration 

20          had implemented to assure that if you flunk 

21          some basic tests in successful completion 

22          rates by students, you weren't eligible for 

23          federal loans and you actually had to allow 

24          the students to write off the debt.


 1                 I don't know if you have had a chance 

 2          to look at this proposal yet, but it would 

 3          seem to me to fly in the face of pretty much 

 4          everything the Governor and the Legislature 

 5          here in New York is trying to do.  

 6                 Is there anyone looking at what this 

 7          federal proposal is and what we would need to 

 8          do to protect our students here in New York 

 9          if in fact this package of seven proposals -- 

10          as far as I can tell, five of which are 

11          fairly terrifying -- actually got implemented 

12          by Congress?  

13                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:   I'm not 

14          familiar with the package.  We do have 

15          someone -- we would be happy to take a look 

16          at that and discuss the impact that it may 

17          have on students here in New York.

18                 SENATOR KRUEGER:   I would urge you to 

19          do so and then to help us understand the 

20          ramifications for all our college students 

21          here in New York.  Because my minimal 

22          understanding, in reading the summary of the 

23          542-page bill, is this will be a tragedy for 

24          students attempting to go to college in 


 1          New York State if not the other 49 states.

 2                 Thank you.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  I think 

 4          we're done.

 5                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you very 

 6          much.  We look forward to having some of 

 7          those -- you know, when you have run all the 

 8          numbers, we look forward to having that 

 9          information.

10                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:   

11          Absolutely.

12                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you very 

13          much.

14                 EX. VICE PRESIDENT MAGEE:   Thank you.  

15                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you for being 

16          here today.

17                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  The next panel 

18          is the NYSUT panel:  Andy Pallotta, Fred 

19          Kowal, Barbara Bowen, Chris Black.  

20                 Thank you, one and all, for being 

21          here.  If I haven't had a chance to say so, 

22          Happy New Year.

23                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Hi, everybody.

24                 MR. PALLOTTA:  Hi.


 1                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  So we're 

 2          summarizing today rather than reading.

 3                 MR. PALLOTTA:  Yes, yes, there will be 

 4          quick summaries, no reading.  

 5                 Chairperson Young and Chairperson 

 6          Weinstein and members of the Assembly and 

 7          Senate, thank you for having us here today to 

 8          be able to present before you.  We represent, 

 9          at NYSUT, over 600,000 teachers, 

10          school-related professionals, professional 

11          faculty in higher ed and healthcare.  Today 

12          we're representing over 80,000 faculty and 

13          professional staff at colleges and 

14          universities around the state.  

15                 I am joined by Dr. Fred Kowal from 

16          UUP, Dr. Barbara Bowen from PSC, Dr. Mike 

17          Fabricant from PSC, and Chris Black from 

18          NYSUT Legislation.

19                 You have a copy of my testimony, so 

20          I'll be very brief.  We start out with the 

21          concept here today that due to years of 

22          austere budgets, CUNY and SUNY have not had 

23          the resources they need to address the 

24          demands for additional full-time faculty, and 


 1          this is the major issue we're facing.  

 2                 The enactment of the Excelsior 

 3          Scholarship Program last year was a first 

 4          step, and this year we hope that the second 

 5          step is taken to focus on quality education.  

 6          And we say we shouldn't speak about access to 

 7          public higher education without discussing 

 8          funding to preserve and enhance the quality 

 9          of that education.  As enrollment increases 

10          at four-year campuses, we know that we have 

11          to do this.  It's an imperative.  

12                 We would like to thank the Legislature 

13          for once again unanimously passing 

14          legislation to enact an enhanced maintenance 

15          of effort.  We thank you for that.  And we 

16          are also aware that it was very unfortunate 

17          that this bill was vetoed.

18                 Providing funding to cover mandatory 

19          costs for CUNY and SUNY should be covered by 

20          the state.  We understand the financial 

21          challenges that lie before us and ask the 

22          Legislature to make a down payment on this 

23          investment by reimbursing campuses for 

24          tuition credits, also known as the TAP gap, 


 1          which is estimated at $113 million.

 2                 On the issue of full-time faculty, 

 3          NYSUT is pleased to see that a budget 

 4          appropriation previously allocated for 

 5          performance-based funding has been modified 

 6          to allow these funds to be used for new 

 7          classroom faculty, which will directly help 

 8          students.  We believe that this 

 9          acknowledgment substantiates the fact that 

10          more full-time faculty are needed.  We look 

11          forward to working with the Legislature to 

12          make funding for new classroom faculty a 

13          reality in this year's budget.  

14                 I'd like to talk a little bit about 

15          community colleges.  The Executive Budget 

16          proposes flat funding per FTE for community 

17          colleges.  While state-base-aid funding is 

18          flat, some of our community colleges will 

19          receive less funding due to enrollment 

20          fluctuations.  

21                 NYSUT will ask the Legislature to 

22          increase base aid by $253 per FTE.  This 

23          would raise the level per student to $3,000.  

24          This funding will help enhance the course 


 1          offerings that are in demand by local 

 2          businesses and industry and will offset the 

 3          decline from the local sponsor.

 4                 Finally I'd like to discuss the SUNY 

 5          hospitals and the Executive Budget proposal 

 6          to eliminate the state subsidy and replace it 

 7          with a state capital appropriation.  The 

 8          elimination of this subsidy is deeply 

 9          troubling.  

10                 We thank the Legislature for your 

11          efforts in the past to restore the state 

12          subsidy and urge you to once again restore 

13          this subsidy, which is a vital lifeline to 

14          hospitals.

15                 In conclusion, New York took a step 

16          forward last year with the Excelsior 

17          Scholarship Program, which will increase 

18          access to higher education.  We must now move 

19          on that next step and provide the funding to 

20          preserve and enhance the quality of 

21          education.  We ask the state to increase its 

22          state investment in SUNY and CUNY.  

23                 And again, I thank you for this 

24          opportunity to testify here today.  


 1                 I now turn it over to Dr. Kowal, who 

 2          will be followed by Dr. Bowen.

 3                 DR. KOWAL:  Thank you.  

 4                 Chairperson Young, Chairperson 

 5          Weinstein, distinguished members of the 

 6          Senate Finance Committee and the Assembly 

 7          Ways and Means Committee, thank you for 

 8          granting me the opportunity to speak to you 

 9          today on behalf of the 42,000 members of 

10          United University Professions.  

11                 I would also like to thank and 

12          recognize Senator Ken LaValle and 

13          Assemblymember Deborah Glick for their 

14          aggressive support for the university that 

15          UUP serves -- most notably, your leadership 

16          on the maintenance of effort legislation over 

17          the past couple of years.  We deeply 

18          appreciate that support.  

19                 Also, we applaud the Legislature for 

20          the work that you did last year in helping to 

21          restore the $9.3 million to the SUNY hospital 

22          subsidy, and also your steadfast support for 

23          opportunity programs.  

24                 I will speak about opportunity 


 1          programs first, and that is to basically 

 2          emphasize that here we have incredibly 

 3          successful programs that unfortunately once 

 4          again have received a cut in the Executive 

 5          Budget proposal.  We propose not only that 

 6          that cut be restored, the funding be 

 7          restored, but that these programs be 

 8          expanded.

 9                 In response to a question that was 

10          raised earlier today in the hearing 

11          concerning retention of students, I'll have 

12          you know that in the educational opportunity 

13          program in SUNY, the retention rates at 

14          doctoral-degree-granting institutions from 

15          the first to second year is 92 percent, far 

16          above the national average.  At the 

17          comprehensive campuses in SUNY, it's 81 

18          percent.  

19                 These programs work.  And though we 

20          don't have a lot of UUP members who work in 

21          these programs, we believe they are crucial 

22          for the future of SUNY in serving 

23          underrepresented and underresourced families.  

24                 In a similar vein, we advocate 


 1          strongly for SUNY's academic medical centers.  

 2          They provide healthcare to hundreds of 

 3          thousands of New Yorkers who otherwise would 

 4          not have access to quality healthcare.

 5                 It's important to remember as well 

 6          that these state-operated public hospitals 

 7          are also teaching hospitals:  85 percent of 

 8          first-year students at SUNY's medical schools 

 9          are from New York State, and the vast 

10          majority of graduates from these medical 

11          schools stay in New York State upon 

12          completion of their education and training.

13                 The education, research, and 

14          healthcare that takes place in these 

15          institutions are a state responsibility.  At 

16          a time when the federal government is 

17          attacking healthcare for those least able to 

18          pay, we request that New York commit itself 

19          to SUNY's academic medical centers at Stony 

20          Brook, Brooklyn, and Syracuse by fully 

21          restoring the state subsidy to the academic 

22          medical centers to where it was in 2008.

23                 UUP's other main concern is the 

24          long-term flat state funding.  Since 2010, 


 1          that has been the financial reality facing 

 2          SUNY.  In 2007-2008, state support for SUNY 

 3          was at $1.36 billion; this year, 

 4          $694 million.  The result of that has been 

 5          the loss of full-time faculty, and that's 

 6          where you see it most egregiously.  At the 

 7          turn of the century, 10,000 full-time faculty 

 8          were teaching 185,000 full-time students.  

 9          Now, there are 8,000 full-time faculty within 

10          SUNY teaching 222,000 students.  

11                 We believe that the best way to 

12          address this shortfall in these tough times 

13          is to add $265 million to cover the so-called 

14          TAP gap.  This will free up resources to hire 

15          the full-time faculty so necessary to 

16          maintain quality education in SUNY.  

17                 Finally, I would draw your attention 

18          to my written testimony where there is also 

19          discussion of some other proposals that we're 

20          making that address issues such as the lack 

21          of diversity in education from pre-K through 

22          professional education; changing the nature 

23          of medical education; and the need for green 

24          energy careers in upstate New York 


 1          especially.  

 2                 Once again, thank you for the time 

 3          that you have granted me to discuss UUP's 

 4          priorities, and I look forward to working 

 5          with you to make our State University better 

 6          than ever.  Thank you.

 7                 DR. BOWEN:  Thank you very much.  I'm 

 8          pleased to be joined by Dr. Mike Fabricant, 

 9          who's the vice president of the PSC.  

10                 And thank you all so much for 

11          listening to us today, for being here and 

12          giving us this opportunity.  And also we want 

13          to give a special thanks to the 

14          Legislature -- I join my colleagues in 

15          this -- in your advocacy for the enhanced MOE 

16          bill.  That was bipartisan support.  You did 

17          a fabulous job getting that passed.  As we 

18          know, it's been vetoed twice.  But the 

19          existence of even the basic MOE shielded CUNY 

20          in this very challenging budget and made sure 

21          that we had the addition of the increased 

22          costs for fringe benefits.  That's 

23          $44 million.  Every single dollar counts at 

24          CUNY.  


 1                 So we thank you for those efforts and 

 2          we look forward to working with you on some 

 3          structural solutions, especially to something 

 4          that was in the initial enhanced MOE, and 

 5          that's the TAP tuition credit waiver that 

 6          Fred Kowal and Andy spoke about.  

 7                 So I start with thanking you.  I 

 8          really have a story to tell about what has 

 9          happened in New York.  How is it that we keep 

10          hearing that the state's Executive proposals, 

11          Executive Budgets for higher education, 

12          public higher education, are increases, and 

13          yet you listen to us and we say there's been 

14          a decrease?  

15                 New York has invested strongly in 

16          access to higher education, and that is a 

17          great thing.  And it was especially important 

18          when the funding for higher education was at 

19          a high level; then the access was to 

20          institutions that could support the students 

21          who go there.  What has happened in New York 

22          State is that the funding for access is not 

23          met by funding for resources.  That's the 

24          basic story.  


 1                 When you look at New York in terms of 

 2          funding for higher education, you see high 

 3          numbers.  That's because of TAP.  Excelsior 

 4          is relatively small in that, but we heard 

 5          it's been very highly promoted.  And yet what 

 6          you don't always see is the story that the 

 7          state appropriations for the operating 

 8          budgets -- I'll just talk about operating for 

 9          a minute -- the operating budgets have gone 

10          down year after year.  

11                 So this year's Executive proposal, 

12          which is presented as an increase, is 

13          actually another decrease.  You have to look 

14          at it in terms of per-student money.  I mean, 

15          there's no way of really measuring what's 

16          happening without looking at the per-student 

17          money.  So in per-student and 

18          inflation-adjusted terms, New York's funding 

19          for CUNY, state funding for the senior 

20          colleges, is down 18 percent since 2008, and 

21          it's down 4 percent since Governor Cuomo took 

22          office.  

23                 We know this is a very challenging 

24          budget year, but we have to look at the 


 1          reality that one of the most powerful 

 2          solutions to challenging times -- higher 

 3          education, and public higher education in 

 4          particular -- is being systematically -- not 

 5          accidentally, but systematically underfunded.  

 6          And we are asking you to work with us to 

 7          change that.  

 8                 My colleagues have mentioned one of 

 9          the key things we'd like to focus on, which 

10          is the gap between the cost of full tuition 

11          and the maximum TAP award.  As the law 

12          currently stands, CUNY and SUNY must absorb 

13          the cost of that.  So for every student who 

14          receives TAP, there is a gap, and the 

15          institutions are covering that.  That money 

16          should not be paid by CUNY and SUNY.  It's 

17          $59 million at CUNY, it's going up.  I worry 

18          that it will be a disincentive to accepting 

19          students with TAP; I think that is a real 

20          issue.  And we are calling on you to find a 

21          solution for that, which I think has to be a 

22          structural solution outside the bounds of 

23          just incremental additions.  

24                 You heard Chancellor Milliken this 


 1          morning talk about the extraordinary record 

 2          that CUNY has as an institution that propels 

 3          people from the poorest communities in this 

 4          country into stable and steady middle-class 

 5          incomes.  That's an amazing record.  And we 

 6          as faculty, here representing all the faculty 

 7          and staff, we're very proud to own that 

 8          record.  It's there because our students are 

 9          incredible with their explosive knowledge 

10          from their own histories and struggles, and 

11          it's there because of the hard work of the 

12          faculty and staff.  

13                 But many, many students from CUNY do 

14          not graduate.  That study measures the 

15          progress of graduates, not students.  Imagine 

16          how powerful CUNY's record and potential 

17          would be if more students graduated, if twice 

18          the number graduated.  

19                 We already have the example of the 

20          ASAP program at CUNY to show us that when you 

21          invest less than $4,000 more per student, the 

22          graduation rate more than doubles.  

23                 So what we say to you as faculty and 

24          staff members, as representatives of the 


 1          30,000 faculty and staff at CUNY, is if 

 2          New York is serious about student success, 

 3          about students really succeeding in 

 4          college -- not just adding up the numbers and 

 5          going to college, but succeeding in 

 6          college -- then there is a simple solution 

 7          that's sitting right out there, and it's 

 8          investment.  

 9                 So we call on you to work with us on 

10          several areas.  One is on the tuition waiver 

11          credit, the TAP gap.  We also ask you to look 

12          closely at Excelsior, which has, as we've 

13          heard earlier today, increased the number of 

14          applications.  It has probably been 

15          responsible for some of the large enrollment 

16          growth at CUNY.  CUNY has added the 

17          equivalent of two full colleges since 2000, 

18          but Excelsior is responsible for part of 

19          that.  Excelsior should have come with 

20          substantial funding per student so that those 

21          students actually could progress through 

22          college.  So with an increased census of 

23          students must come increased funding.  

24                 And I just mention a few other things 


 1          quickly; there's more in our testimony.  But 

 2          CUNY is now 4,000 full-time faculty short.  

 3          You know, as you heard earlier, we now have 

 4          more than 12,000 adjuncts who are teaching.  

 5          We have about 7600 full-time faculty, about 

 6          12,000 adjuncts.  They teach the majority of 

 7          courses at CUNY, and they earn about $3,500 a 

 8          course.  Several thousand of them are earning 

 9          their whole living teaching courses here and 

10          there at CUNY.  They're living on $25,000 a 

11          year in New York City.  They're people with 

12          Ph.D.s.  That is cruel to them, and it sends 

13          absolutely the wrong message about the value 

14          of college teaching.  And it sends the wrong 

15          message to students because it does not 

16          enable those faculty to help our students 

17          work towards completion in the way that 

18          full-time faculty are able to do.  

19                 So we ask you to look at that.  

20          Obviously, there are collective bargaining 

21          issues, and we are proud to have made 

22          progress on collective bargaining issues for 

23          adjuncts.  But we need the budget to be able 

24          to restore full-time faculty positions, to 


 1          pay something other than a shameful wage to 

 2          the adjunct faculty, and to address the other 

 3          needs throughout the system.  

 4                 So we look forward to working with 

 5          you.  You'll see our other testimony strongly 

 6          supporting the DREAM Act and the funding that 

 7          is needed for collective bargaining in this 

 8          budget.  And we're happy to take questions.  

 9          Thank you so much.  

10                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  Is that 

11          the end of the presentations?

12                 MR. PALLOTTA:  That is it.  Thank you.  

13                 DR. BOWEN:  We can say more, but --

14                 (Laughter.)

15                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Assemblywoman.

16                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you very 

17          much.  

18                 I know that you made reference to 

19          seeking an increase in the FTE for community 

20          colleges.  SUNY is in part looking at -- and 

21          I don't know if it's the same situation in 

22          CUNY, but SUNY, because of the wide range of 

23          diversity in geographic numbers of people who 

24          can attend -- I mean, you know, you don't 


 1          want to have to travel a hundred miles to go 

 2          to college.  Some don't have to travel that 

 3          far, but some might.  

 4                 So there have been some reductions in 

 5          enrollment, and they are concerned, the 

 6          colleges are concerned about the funding 

 7          formula and whether or not there is some 

 8          different way to approach funding our 

 9          community colleges.  I think it's exacerbated 

10          by counties that, out of their own economic 

11          shortfalls, are looking at wanting to get out 

12          from under their responsibility.

13                 So I'm just wondering whether you've 

14          thought about or have an opinion on what 

15          might be a different model for support for 

16          our community colleges.

17                 MR. BLACK:  That's a very good 

18          question, Assemblymember.  And we have 

19          thought about it, and we are certainly for 

20          always looking at different -- anything that 

21          can stabilize our SUNY community colleges, 

22          anything that could, you know, potentially be 

23          a better way to fund them, certainly.  

24                 We will be meeting with SUNY.  We 


 1          don't have all the details of their 

 2          particular plan, so we'll reserve judgment on 

 3          that.  We'll be meeting with them to discuss 

 4          it.  But certainly we want to hold harmless 

 5          those campuses that, for instance, may see 

 6          some small dips in enrollment because we know 

 7          year to year while enrollment may dip 

 8          slightly, costs don't go down, right?  So we 

 9          certainly want to hold those campuses 

10          harmless.  

11                 But I would say that said, we want to 

12          ensure that the autonomy of these campuses 

13          are maintained and that funding is, you know, 

14          directly appropriated to them.  So we 

15          wouldn't want to see anything that would 

16          hinder that current process.  

17                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  I would just 

18          opine that some of the problem for some of 

19          the schools is that it's not even that they 

20          have fewer students, it's that they have 

21          fewer students that can add up to a full-time 

22          equivalency.  

23                 So that was one of the issues that was 

24          raised by the chancellor, that they have a 


 1          large number of students they're just -- the 

 2          mathematics of when you get -- what triggers 

 3          a full-time equivalency with credit hours is 

 4          a problem.  

 5                 So it's not that they've necessarily 

 6          lost bodies -- they have plenty of bodies in 

 7          some instances -- but the way in which what 

 8          triggers a full-time equivalency may take -- 

 9          what might have been two students in the past 

10          now is three students.

11                 So they're actually, in some 

12          instances -- it's not that they have fewer 

13          students.  That may be true in some 

14          instances, in a few instances, but in, I 

15          think, a significant number.  And it may be a 

16          reflection of people having to have two jobs 

17          while going to college, where in the past 

18          maybe one job actually made it possible for 

19          them to take enough credit hours to trigger a 

20          full-time equivalency.

21                 So I just want us to be thoughtful and 

22          careful about trying to do that which is 

23          stabilizing for the colleges and supports the 

24          options and maintains the quality available.  


 1                 I don't think the city is in the same 

 2          situation, because geographically we're 

 3          compact.  And I don't know that the same 

 4          situation exists.  It's something that we 

 5          would have to talk to CUNY and you folks at 

 6          PSC more.  But it clearly is an issue for 

 7          SUNY.

 8                 MR. PALLOTTA:  And we'll definitely 

 9          bring that up at the conference that we have 

10          annually with the community colleges.  We get 

11          together with the presidents from the 

12          colleges, and that definitely will be on the 

13          agenda.

14                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  We'd be happy to 

15          hear what comes out of that conversation, 

16          because it is a concern.

17                 Now, we've heard from the CUNY 

18          chancellor a very positive picture of moving 

19          towards more full-time faculty.  Has there 

20          actually been a moving in the dial, or is it 

21          just that they're relieved that they're 

22          getting some of the fringe benefits and so 

23          they're -- you know, it's the exuberance of a 

24          surprise that maybe puts a happier face on 


 1          things?  

 2                 So I'd like your view of whether the 

 3          dial has moved at all on that full-time 

 4          ratio.

 5                 DR. BOWEN:  Well, there always is the 

 6          exuberance of surprise when there's any 

 7          additional funding, so we do have that.  

 8                 But there has been a movement of the 

 9          dial in terms of raw numbers, actual, 

10          absolute numbers of full-time faculty.  The 

11          problem is that the number of students has 

12          far outpaced that.  And I can send you a 

13          chart that shows the number of students 

14          graphed against the increase in full-time 

15          faculty and part-time faculty.  

16                 In 2000, there were about 7,000 

17          part-time faculty.  Now there are actually 

18          14,000 people teaching as part-time faculty.  

19          Some might do something else at CUNY, so 

20          let's say about 12,000.  And there are about 

21          7600 full-time faculty.

22                 So the growth -- I mean, what CUNY has 

23          done in the face of that enormous growth in 

24          students, which we all celebrate, and the 


 1          failure of state funding to keep up, is fill 

 2          in that gap with part-time faculty who are 

 3          radically underpaid.  So yes, there has been 

 4          a growth in full-time faculty, but not nearly 

 5          fast enough.  My own department had 80 

 6          full-time faculty when I came, you know, in 

 7          the late '80s, and about 40 part-time 

 8          faculty.  Now it has about 40-full time 

 9          faculty and about 100 part-time faculty.  I 

10          mean, that tells the story.  

11                 So yes, there has been an improvement.  

12          And we are happy to work with that and for 

13          that and support the chancellor in doing 

14          that.  But the real story is that faced with 

15          underfunding, CUNY has saved money on their 

16          chief job, which is instruction, and found a 

17          way to do it on the cheap and for about a 

18          third of the cost of the full-time faculty.  

19          And that is a terrible labor model, it's a 

20          terrible message to the students about how 

21          much this state cares about them, and it's a 

22          terrible impediment to helping students move 

23          forward.  They are wonderful faculty, and 

24          CUNY is very lucky to be in New York and 


 1          attract the adjuncts we have.  But those 

 2          faculty are not on campus all the time, they 

 3          don't have the continuity.  And it hurts them 

 4          and it hurts the students.  So it really is 

 5          the most visible story of the underfunding.

 6                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  The notion of a 

 7          three-year contract is a very positive one.

 8                 DR. BOWEN:  Yes.

 9                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Are we in Year 1 

10          of that?  

11                 DR. BOWEN:  We are.  And in the first 

12          year -- well, we're just coming up to Year 2.  

13          Just for people who aren't as up-to-date on 

14          adjunct employment, usually in most places 

15          they are employed semester by semester.  And 

16          they can prepare a full course and the day 

17          before the course starts they're told, Oh, 

18          sorry, full-time is going to teach that, you 

19          get nothing.  And often that means losing 

20          their health insurance.  

21                 So with the university, a very tough 

22          negotiation, but we succeeded in negotiating 

23          a three-year contract with a provision to 

24          guarantee income over that period.  And we 


 1          did the first year of it last year, 1500 

 2          people benefited from that.  That's 

 3          fantastic.  We're just coming up to the 

 4          eligibility for this year.  There probably 

 5          won't be as many this year because there was 

 6          kind of a backlog.  

 7                 But it's been phenomenal.  We would 

 8          like there to be better job security for 

 9          adjuncts.  Some have taught 25, 30 years as 

10          an adjunct, and they are holding up the basic 

11          programs in math and English and other places 

12          in the university.  So they should have that 

13          job security at a minimum.  So we're very 

14          pleased to have that.  It's been working 

15          really well, and we'd like to expand it.

16                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  I would say that 

17          it's also -- for students, there's a certain 

18          continuity.  If you have an excellent 

19          professor and you're taking a second-level 

20          course and that professor is available 

21          teaching that, you might in fact be more 

22          encouraged to move forward.

23                 DR. BOWEN:  That's exactly right.

24                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  So it does seem 


 1          to me that even if somebody is not 

 2          full-time -- which is of course our goal, to 

 3          support more full-time faculty -- if you at 

 4          least have stability in the adjunct corps, 

 5          that is at least a step in the right 

 6          direction.

 7                 DR. BOWEN:  That's right.  That was 

 8          exactly our argument.  

 9                 And we did do some conversion of 

10          part-time to full-time positions.  So far 

11          we've done about 225 together.  I'd like to 

12          do many, many more because there are 

13          part-timers with extraordinary 

14          qualifications.  It costs less to move them 

15          to a full-time position than to create a 

16          whole new position, and that would be a 

17          beautiful use of the $59 million from the TAP 

18          waiver.  I mean, it would really change the 

19          complexion of CUNY in many ways.

20                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you.

21                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

22                 So UUP has been without a contract for 

23          two years; is that correct?  

24                 DR. KOWAL:  It will be two years on 


 1          June 30th.  Hopefully we won't get to two 

 2          years.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  I know, I hope so 

 4          too.

 5                 DR. KOWAL:  Thank you.

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  And I understand 

 7          that negotiations are still ongoing.  So you 

 8          feel optimistic that there will be a 

 9          resolution this year?

10                 DR. KOWAL:  As the chancellor 

11          responded this morning, she hopes so.  As do 

12          I.  I think a great deal depends on the 

13          uncertainties that transpire in the course of 

14          collective bargaining discussions.  But I 

15          remain optimistic that we will have a 

16          contract so that we won't reach that 

17          second-year anniversary.

18                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  That would be 

19          great.  It would be wonderful for the members 

20          to get that settled.  

21                 And, you know, we've heard a lot about 

22          the TAP gap and some of the constraints that 

23          we have on campuses.  And you heard me talk 

24          to the chancellor earlier, but the fact that 


 1          there's no money in state operations to pay 

 2          for a resolution is concerning, because 

 3          obviously it can only come from three places:  

 4          Cuts, out of tuition, or, you know, if we 

 5          increase aid to the colleges.  

 6                 So I'm concerned that there's no plan 

 7          in place to really deal with that going 

 8          forward.  And, you know, there's a lot of 

 9          concern in the Legislature.  That's why we 

10          passed that maintenance of effort bill.  But 

11          there's a lot of concern in the Legislature 

12          about having the proper resources to make 

13          sure that we're providing high-quality 

14          education on our campuses.  

15                 So hopefully it does get resolved, but 

16          I think we need to be forward looking as far 

17          as making sure that the resources are there 

18          to address the issue.

19                 DR. KOWAL:  I agree, Senator.  And I 

20          think what bears study is when you look back 

21          at our previous five-year collective 

22          bargaining agreement, which included three 

23          zeroes -- and we do not have a step system of 

24          automatic salary increases, so those were 


 1          real zeroes.  But then also there were two 

 2          furlough days, there were lag days, seven lag 

 3          days, which for all intents and purposes was 

 4          an interest-free loan to SUNY.  

 5                 You know, I think an appropriate 

 6          question for SUNY is to determine what has 

 7          transpired with those funds that literally 

 8          came out of our members' paychecks.  And 

 9          those -- you know, the loans have been repaid 

10          now.  That was part of the contractual 

11          agreement.  But in fact as we went into this 

12          round of negotiations, as I'm sure you've 

13          heard from your constituents, especially from 

14          Fredonia and Alfred, they really feel like 

15          this is a round where there needs to be some 

16          makeup because of what happened in the last 

17          round.  

18                 And granted, though, we understand the 

19          financial difficulties and challenges, and 

20          we're hopeful that we can come to an 

21          agreement that will benefit our members and 

22          maintain SUNY's financial position.

23                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you for that.

24                 DR. BOWEN:  Senator, excuse me.  May I 


 1          just say quickly, thank you so much for 

 2          raising that.  

 3                 And we mentioned that there are no 

 4          funds, as you say, in the Executive Budget 

 5          for future collective bargaining costs for 

 6          CUNY either.  We are starting bargaining for 

 7          a new contract, having waited six years for 

 8          the last one.  And I really thank you and 

 9          your colleagues for calling attention to 

10          that, because it should not be normalized 

11          that the institutions do not get money to pay 

12          basic raises.  I mean, nobody goes into 

13          academia to get rich.  Even to have a cost of 

14          living -- or public service, especially in 

15          the Assembly and Senate.  

16                 But, you know, even to have a cost of 

17          living increase is a minimum, and even that 

18          is not covered in the funding.  Which means 

19          that the universities, as you say, end up 

20          eating into academic programs to pay just 

21          basic employee expenses.  And that's not 

22          fair, and it shouldn't be normalized year 

23          after year.  

24                 So we really thank you for 


 1          highlighting that and ask you to work with us 

 2          to change that in an ongoing way.  That 

 3          cannot become acceptable, because it's -- 

 4          again, it's impoverishing the academic 

 5          programs for the students.

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you for that.

 7                 I also -- once you get together on the 

 8          community colleges proposal, I would be very 

 9          interested in hearing what you come up with 

10          too.  I think it's a little bit troubling 

11          that although they're talking about 

12          stabilizing the campuses, which I think is a 

13          great goal to have, it was unclear to me, 

14          even when I spoke to the chancellor today, 

15          about how it actually would work.  They 

16          talked kind of vaguely about technical 

17          programs.  It almost sounds like block grants 

18          or something like that.  But who's going to 

19          make those decisions?  How are they going to 

20          make those decisions?  

21                 As you know, in my area I have several 

22          community colleges, and I'm concerned about 

23          their future.  And if it's more focused on 

24          urban areas and not every area of the state 


 1          or whatever may happen, I'm very concerned 

 2          about getting left behind.  And we need to 

 3          have that resource.  As you know so well 

 4          through your members in our communities 

 5          across the state, whether it's rural, urban, 

 6          suburban, we need to have those educational 

 7          opportunities available.

 8                 So I just wanted to raise that.  I 

 9          don't know if anybody wants to address it.  

10          But please keep us informed as you move 

11          forward.

12                 MR. PALLOTTA:  Will do.

13                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

14                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Mr. Colton.

15                 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON:  Yes, good 

16          afternoon.  I had just a couple of questions.  

17                 I have been becoming increasingly 

18          alarmed over the strain that may be put on 

19          CUNY and SUNY.  The TAP gap and now 

20          Excelsior, which is a good step in the right 

21          direction, which benefits students -- but are 

22          there warning signs?  This is very early, but 

23          my concern is that when we have an increasing 

24          number of students and we don't provide 


 1          additional monies, that there's going to be a 

 2          strain that's going to basically undermine 

 3          the good that we're intending to do.  And, 

 4          you know, we want to in the Legislature see 

 5          any warning signs early, because I think we 

 6          have to start drastically changing the 

 7          priority here.  Education is the economic 

 8          engine for the state, and we need that most 

 9          importantly now.

10                 So are there any things that we should 

11          be looking for in terms of, you know, numbers 

12          of increases in certain campuses or, you 

13          know, where there's a warning sign that we 

14          really need to do something that could prompt 

15          us to then act upon it?

16                 DR. KOWAL:  Well, I would point you in 

17          the direction, Assemblyman, towards any 

18          indication that students are having 

19          difficulty getting their courses that are 

20          required for graduation, thereby threatening 

21          their ability to complete in four.  

22                 And I know that later this afternoon 

23          you will hear from the Student Assembly at 

24          SUNY.  And we've been working very closely 


 1          with them on just this issue, and that is to 

 2          track what's happening at the campuses.  

 3                 I certainly would not expect anything 

 4          to have happened in this first semester, in 

 5          the fall semester.  But in the spring and 

 6          then next year, as the numbers -- of 

 7          necessity -- will grow, then you may start to 

 8          see difficulty in getting classes.  And then 

 9          you'll start to feel the pressure.  And my 

10          concern, like yours, is that this will happen 

11          in isolated areas, in departments scattered 

12          here and there in SUNY or in CUNY, but there 

13          won't be the systematic situation that will 

14          attract undue attention.

15                 And that's why what's vitally 

16          important is that we hear from our members 

17          who are teaching and we hear from the 

18          students as to what's happening in their 

19          experiences.  It's incredibly important that 

20          that take place.

21                 DR. BOWEN:  Thank you for the 

22          question.  

23                 The one thing I would add, I have 

24          heard from Baruch College at CUNY, where 


 1          several of the majors have a very tight 

 2          sequence of courses -- you know, you have to 

 3          take Accounting 101 before you can take 102.  

 4          And if you can't get into 101, you might have 

 5          to wait a whole year, and then you can't take 

 6          102 and you get left behind in your major.  

 7                 I have heard a concern at Baruch.  I 

 8          wouldn't say that we've seen evidence yet, 

 9          because as Fred said, it's too early, but 

10          that's the concern I've heard, that in 

11          tightly sequenced majors where there is a 

12          squeeze and our students have other things in 

13          their lives -- you know, a huge percentage of 

14          them are working and they're squeezing their 

15          courses -- even Excelsior students might be 

16          working to contribute to their families, and 

17          so they don't have the freedom just to take a 

18          course at any time of the day or week.  And 

19          in that kind of sequence, there may not be 

20          enough sections offered so that they can 

21          actually take one.  

22                 And that's a concern that's been 

23          raised with so much pressure on the Excelsior 

24          recipients to take the 15 credits.  We're all 


 1          for that, but when students don't have the 

 2          support to do that and when they have to 

 3          scramble to get courses -- you know, there 

 4          are obstacles all over the place.  It is not 

 5          given to them that they can move forward 

 6          smoothly.  And so we are concerned that with 

 7          all that pressure and the penalty of 

 8          irrevocably losing your scholarship for not 

 9          keeping up, we do have that concern.  

10                 So -- and it's symptomatic, as you 

11          say, it's symptomatic of the larger pattern 

12          of bringing in students, bringing in 

13          students, and celebrating that without 

14          funding their success.  And that is a very 

15          disturbing pattern.

16                 DR. FABRICANT:  What I think may be 

17          both offering great benefit to the university 

18          but also represents a threat is online 

19          learning.  I think we've got to be very 

20          clear.  Online learning can be an 

21          extraordinary experience for students, but it 

22          can also become a safety valve, a way in 

23          which an infrastructure that's crumbling, 

24          students not getting what they need in the 


 1          classroom -- expanding the size of a class 

 2          online, not providing the supports that the 

 3          students need, becomes the safety valve for 

 4          continuing to reduce the budgets and moving 

 5          students into a virtual circumstance of 

 6          learning, for many of which it's a misfit.  

 7                 So that, it seems to me, is something 

 8          to keep an eye on.  You know, many of the 

 9          systems have talked about this.  It can be a 

10          great boon, but it can also undermine rapidly 

11          the quality of education.

12                 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON:  The other 

13          concern, we go through this budget dance 

14          every year with the opportunity programs -- 

15          among other things, but the opportunity 

16          programs.  What is the impact of the 

17          uncertainty of whether the opportunity 

18          programs -- do you feel any negative impact 

19          to students when every year they hear they 

20          may not have opportunity programs and then 

21          finally the Legislature restores it?

22                 DR. KOWAL:  Absolutely.  We know for 

23          an absolute certainty that in the aftermath 

24          of the proposed Executive Budget that we 


 1          heard from our members that students were 

 2          very upset, they were concerned if there was 

 3          going to be space for them going forward, let 

 4          alone the ability to recruit.

 5                 Remember that the application rates 

 6          for the SUNY opportunity programs, EOP 

 7          specifically, range between 20,000 and 30,000 

 8          per year, and yet the numbers that can be 

 9          admitted under the program is just in the few 

10          thousands.

11                 And so absolutely there is that impact 

12          where students feel like they may be losing 

13          their only opportunity to get a college 

14          degree.

15                 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON:  Thank you very 

16          much.

17                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Senator Savino.

18                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you, Senator 

19          Young.  

20                 Thank you, guys, for your testimony.  

21                 I'm going to ask you all your opinion, 

22          because you mentioned the issue of the 

23          hospitals, SUNY Downstate, SUNY Upstate, and 

24          Stony Brook.  And you were here earlier, so 


 1          you heard me ask the chancellor about it.  

 2          And I'm not sure I really got an answer to 

 3          that question, because in her testimony she 

 4          talked about stabilization and the health and 

 5          security of their healthcare delivery system 

 6          and wanting some flexibility.  I still don't 

 7          understand what that means.  

 8                 And as you all know, in the Governor's 

 9          budget he's suggesting that we zero out the 

10          state subsidy, which is close to $90 million, 

11          and somehow that will be made up with capital 

12          money of some sort, I don't know.  

13                 But do you have any idea what they're 

14          talking about when they suggest they need 

15          flexibility in the way they operate?

16                 DR. KOWAL:  Well, I do know, Senator, 

17          that the word that we've gotten from the SUNY 

18          leadership is that they are eager to work 

19          with us, to move work with the Legislature to 

20          get the subsidy reinstated.  I know that.

21                 Secondly, there are real concerns in 

22          SUNY about the shift to capital funding.  

23          Because even though in this proposed 

24          Executive Budget there is some allowance for 


 1          the debt servicing, the fact is capital 

 2          expenditures are not the same as the subsidy 

 3          required for daily operations, literally.

 4                 And so what I can tell you is that we 

 5          will be advocating as strenuously as we can.  

 6                 We're also encouraged that the new 

 7          president at Downstate is very assertive in 

 8          promoting that excellent institution.  We 

 9          feel the same about the new leadership at 

10          Upstate.  Stony Brook is, you know, 

11          potentially going through some transition on 

12          the hospital side.  But I think that that's 

13          where I see a much more strenuous effort on 

14          the part of the presidents at the hospitals, 

15          the chief executive officers, to advocate for 

16          their institutions.  

17                 There is absolutely no way that there 

18          would not be great harm to the hospitals 

19          without that subsidy.  And I am hopeful that 

20          if you read between -- or if I read between 

21          the lines, that the chancellor was committed 

22          to fighting hard for this.  I can't imagine 

23          why she wouldn't.  These are world-class 

24          institutions.  They produce more 


 1          professionals in the medical field than any 

 2          other institutions in New York State.  And as 

 3          I said in my testimony, the great majority 

 4          stay here.  

 5                 And so there has to be that 

 6          commitment.  So I'm hopeful.  I'm not saying 

 7          I heard anything different than you did, but 

 8          I'm hopeful.

 9                 SENATOR SAVINO:  I'm hopeful too.  I'm 

10          assuming -- well, perhaps we should assume 

11          that she thinks you guys will lead the fight 

12          and they'll just follow along.  And perhaps 

13          that is the way it will turn out.  

14                 But I agree with you, it's almost 

15          impossible to absorb a cut that large without 

16          it having an effect.

17                 DR. KOWAL:  Exactly.

18                 SENATOR SAVINO:  And, you know, to 

19          simply say, Well, if we had some of the 

20          flexibility that exists in other healthcare 

21          institutions, that somehow that would make 

22          the money magically reappear -- which of 

23          course is absurd, so.  

24                 DR. KOWAL:  Right.  And as you know, 


 1          the hospitals provide a subsidy for the 

 2          medical schools.  And so their financial 

 3          strength is crucial to the continued 

 4          operation of those medical schools.

 5                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Right.  Not to 

 6          mention the effect of a disastrous decision a 

 7          few years ago to marry SUNY Downstate to LICH 

 8          in an effort to save that hospital, which 

 9          eventually went the way of other closed 

10          hospitals.  So I think SUNY Downstate is 

11          still reeling from that, and it has an effect 

12          on SUNY Upstate as well.  

13                 So thank you.

14                 DR. KOWAL:  Thank you.  

15                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you very, 

16          very much.  We appreciate it.

17                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

18                 MR. PALLOTTA:  Thank you.

19                 DR. BOWEN:  Thank you.

20                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Our next witness 

21          is Mary Beth Labate from CICU, the Commission 

22          on Independent Colleges and Universities.  

23                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Good 

24          afternoon.


 1                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Good afternoon.

 2                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  And thank you, 

 3          Chairperson Young.  It's a pleasure to see 

 4          and have two women at the helm of such 

 5          influential and important committees; it 

 6          really thrills me.  

 7                 I would also like to acknowledge and 

 8          thank Senator Stavisky and Assembly Higher Ed 

 9          Chair Deborah Glick for all your leadership 

10          in these very challenging times.

11                 I'm Mary Beth Labate, president of the 

12          Commission on Independent Colleges and 

13          Universities, representing more than 

14          100 private, not-for-profit colleges and 

15          universities across the state.  We are in 

16          every corner of the state.  Even if you don't 

17          have a campus in your district, you can be 

18          certain that we educate and employ your 

19          constituents.  We educate 500,000 students 

20          annually; 300,000 of them are New Yorkers.  

21                 Our students are diverse.  More black 

22          and Hispanic students earn degrees at our 

23          campuses than anywhere else in New York.  

24          About 72,000 of our students receive TAP 


 1          because their families earn less than $80,000 

 2          annually.  And our students hail from every 

 3          state in the nation and from around the 

 4          world.

 5                 We are major economic drivers in 

 6          communities across the state, from upstate to 

 7          Long Island to New York City.  We bring 

 8          $80 billion in economic activity to the 

 9          state, and our schools generate over 400,000 

10          jobs.  

11                 We are keenly focused on college 

12          access, affordability and completion, as 

13          evidenced by the fact that our campuses give 

14          $5.4 billion in student aid from their own 

15          resources every year and have the highest 

16          graduation rates in the state.

17                 Investment in New York's private 

18          colleges allows the state to stretch its 

19          higher ed dollars.  New York could not 

20          educate the 1.2 million college students 

21          currently enrolled if it relied exclusively 

22          on its public systems.  We get just 5 percent 

23          of the state's higher education budget, but 

24          our campuses enroll 39 percent of all college 


 1          students in New York, and we confer 

 2          60 percent of bachelor's and graduate degrees 

 3          in the state.

 4                 The average net price that our 

 5          students pay for tuition, room and board at 

 6          one of our campuses is $26,336, significantly 

 7          less than the so-called sticker price.  And 

 8          after you adjust for inflation, that amount 

 9          has been basically flat over the past decade.

10                 Three in 10 of our students don't 

11          borrow at all to pay for their degree.  Those 

12          who do borrow owe on average $30,824 when 

13          they graduate with a four-year degree.  And 

14          just to put that in context, SUNY's average 

15          four-year debt is $27,425, and the average 

16          car loan in the U.S. is $30,032 -- and that 

17          car will depreciate the moment you drive it 

18          off the lot.

19                 Like CUNY and SUNY, our schools launch 

20          students towards upward mobility.  

21          Unfortunately, despite our pivotal role in 

22          educating students and serving as economic 

23          and research engines for communities in every 

24          corner of the state, some proposals advanced 


 1          in the executive budget threaten our ability 

 2          to consider serving the public, the public 

 3          good, and could derail our collective efforts 

 4          to keep college affordable.

 5                 So let me focus just for a minute on 

 6          actions that we would like to see in order to 

 7          preserve New York's carefully balanced higher 

 8          education ecosystem.  

 9                 First and foremost, we urge you to 

10          restore Bundy Aid.  In the 1960s, New York 

11          created the SUNY and CUNY systems.  Prior to 

12          that, New York had relied almost exclusively 

13          on its private colleges.  With the creation 

14          of the public higher education system, 

15          New York's lawmakers recognized that without 

16          targeted support for private not-for-profit 

17          colleges, many of those schools would not be 

18          able to compete with a highly subsidized 

19          public system.  

20                 Bundy Aid was born as a means to 

21          insure a vibrant public and private higher 

22          education landscape that offered student 

23          choices.  Without us, the fledgling public 

24          institutions of the 1960s could not possibly 


 1          have absorbed all the students our schools 

 2          educated and supported all the communities 

 3          they anchored. 

 4                 So you fast forward 50 years, and the 

 5          rationale that gave birth to Bundy is more 

 6          relevant than ever, particularly with the 

 7          state grappling with budget deficits and with 

 8          renewed concerns over a taxing structure that 

 9          makes it impractical to fund large-scale 

10          expansions of the public systems.

11                 Since 1968, the Bundy Aid program has 

12          created a compact between the state and our 

13          schools.  Bundy Aid funds critical student 

14          aid and is earned on the basis of the number 

15          of degrees we award.  This year's Executive 

16          Budget proposes the unprecedented elimination 

17          of the entire $35.1 million program.  This 

18          proposal comes in the midst of particularly 

19          acute enrollment challenges that many of our 

20          schools now confront, in part as a result of 

21          recent changes to student aid programs here 

22          in New York.

23                 We urge you to restore critical 

24          Bundy Aid.  We greatly appreciate that the 


 1          Executive Budget included $35 million for the 

 2          HECap program.  That funding had been 

 3          eliminated from the current year budget, and 

 4          we're very glad to have it back.  It's an 

 5          important program for our campuses, and it 

 6          creates construction jobs across the state.  

 7          However, it is not an adequate alternative to 

 8          Bundy Aid, and its restoration does not 

 9          warrant the elimination of Bundy.  

10                 The two programs are in no way 

11          alternatives for each other.  Restoring HECap 

12          funding for next year is the right thing to 

13          do, but it does not justify eliminating 

14          Bundy.  As I shared, Bundy is used primarily 

15          to fund student aid and other operating 

16          supports that get students over the finish 

17          line.  Nearly all of our campuses receive it 

18          and they receive it in regular, predictable 

19          intervals throughout the school year.  

20                 In contrast, the HECap program 

21          provides grants for capital projects to a 

22          small group of schools and universities with 

23          timelines that are often difficult to 

24          predict.  Both programs are important, but it 


 1          is critical that they not be conflated.

 2                 Funding for opportunity programs like 

 3          HEOP, C-STEP, STEP, and the Liberty 

 4          Partnership Programs suffered a 17 percent 

 5          cut in the Executive Budget.  Each of these 

 6          programs expands access to higher ed and 

 7          degree completion for New York's neediest 

 8          students.  We urge you to restore and 

 9          hopefully increase funding so that our 

10          campuses can meet the demand for these 

11          life-changing programs.

12                 We want to thank the Governor for 

13          fully funding the TAP program in the 

14          Executive Budget, and we hope to see the 

15          Legislature continue its long-time support 

16          for this critical program.

17                 Last year the Legislature created the 

18          Enhanced Tuition Award Program to help 

19          students at private colleges and universities 

20          meet college costs.  I was pleased to see 

21          funding for this program increased to account 

22          for the raised income eligibility.  However, 

23          unless the program is modified slightly to 

24          make it possible for more students to 


 1          participate, I fear that it will be 

 2          underutilized again.  There are several 

 3          improvements that you can make to the program 

 4          that would allow more students to take 

 5          advantage of the enhanced tuition awards.  

 6                 In my written testimony I detail 

 7          changes to the tuition freeze, matching funds 

 8          requirement, and the program's timing that 

 9          would improve utilization of the program.  I 

10          hope that we can continue to have productive 

11          dialogues with the Legislature and the 

12          Executive about these changes.

13                 Last year we were grateful to the 

14          Legislature for passing bills that would have 

15          allowed our students to participate in the 

16          existing STEM and Masters-in-Education 

17          Scholarship programs.  Those bills were 

18          vetoed in December with the veto message 

19          citing the need to address these proposals 

20          within the context of the budget.  We 

21          certainly hope you will do so this year.

22                 New York really has one of the most 

23          vibrant higher education systems in the 

24          world.  That didn't happen by accident.  It 


 1          is the result of a strategic, sustained 

 2          investment in a robust public/private 

 3          partnership.  After a year of unprecedented 

 4          challenges to our schools, the full impact of 

 5          which are still playing out, we find 

 6          ourselves once again at a crossroads.  Only 

 7          with your leadership will not-for-profit 

 8          colleges be positioned to continue serving 

 9          not only as dedicated educators of our 

10          current and future workforce but also as 

11          major employers in their communities.

12                 More than most people you will hear 

13          from over the next three years, I completely 

14          understand the challenges of developing a 

15          responsible and responsive spending plan, 

16          particularly as the purse strings begin to 

17          constrict.  In this context, we are not 

18          asking for a significant expansion of 

19          funding.  We are, however, calling on each of 

20          you today to reverse the reductions to the 

21          opportunity programs and the unprecedented 

22          elimination of Bundy Aid, a program that for 

23          the past five decades has been a hallmark of 

24          the covenant between New York and its 


 1          not-for-profit colleges.

 2                 Thanks for your time.  I know it's 

 3          been a long day, but I welcome your 

 4          questions.

 5                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Let me ask you, 

 6          and you may not have the numbers with you, 

 7          but at some point we'd like to see -- I don't 

 8          know that all schools have subscribed to the 

 9          Enhanced TAP, the Enhanced Tuition from the 

10          added Excelsior.  

11                 So maybe you could provide us with 

12          those schools that have joined the program 

13          and whether there are some other schools that 

14          have indicated that if there were some 

15          changes they too would step into the program, 

16          just so we have an understanding -- you know, 

17          you have a very large sector, some of the 

18          schools probably have more of an endowment 

19          than others, it's varied.  

20                 So we'd like to understand who's 

21          joined and who hasn't and whether -- I know 

22          you've made some recommendations, we'll look 

23          at that in your written testimony -- what 

24          might make it more attractive or doable, and 


 1          we'd like to understand more of that.

 2                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Sure, we can 

 3          provide you with that.  There are 30 schools 

 4          that have opted into the program for this 

 5          initial year.  I'm quite confident that if 

 6          there were changes made to the program to 

 7          make it more conducive to some of the 

 8          challenges that our campuses face, I think 

 9          you will see more campuses participate and 

10          therefore more students be able to take 

11          advantage of it.

12                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Right.  And in 

13          that, give us some of the demographics of the 

14          school:  how large the student body is --

15                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Yes.  Sure.

16                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  -- and perhaps 

17          some additional information about the makeup 

18          of the school, so that we can understand 

19          whether they are in a position by virtue of 

20          having more full-pay students in essence 

21          subsidizing their operation.

22                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Right.

23                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  I just want to 

24          understand what the universe is so that we 


 1          can figure out if there's any maneuvering 

 2          that can be accomplished.

 3                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Okay.  Those 

 4          are important data points.  We can get you 

 5          those.

 6                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  I think many of 

 7          us were surprised at the elimination of Bundy 

 8          Aid.  We understand that that's important.  

 9                 I guess there's always been this 

10          question, since most of the schools submit a 

11          report that says that this is how much they 

12          have used for student financial aid -- but 

13          it's not required, it's unrestricted dollars.

14                 I'm not asking you for an answer in 

15          public.  Have there been any thoughts or 

16          discussions about any restructuring of it if 

17          it is to be reauthorized or reappropriated?

18                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Well, we know 

19          now that the vast majority of the aid is used 

20          for student aid.  It's also used for those 

21          extra services that are needed really to get 

22          students over the finish line, and because of 

23          that we have the strongest graduation rate in 

24          the state.  


 1                 So I think you can be assured that it 

 2          is going for student services, and in going 

 3          for student services and student financial 

 4          aid -- because those dollars are there, that 

 5          is less pressure on tuition rates.  That is 

 6          less pressure on the student to borrow.

 7                 So I do think it is a situation where 

 8          for many of our schools, every dollar counts 

 9          at this point.

10                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  I think that's 

11          it.  We'll go to you, and then we'll go back 

12          to Ms. Peoples-Stokes.

13                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

14                 Thank you, President Labate, for being 

15          here today, and thank you for your testimony.  

16                 I had just a couple of follow-up 

17          questions, because I think that there was a 

18          misperception last year about some of our 

19          private colleges where they were portrayed as 

20          being extremely wealthy and that only rich 

21          kids go there.  

22                 As you know so well, I have very 

23          wonderful private colleges in my district, 

24          whether it's St. Bonaventure University, 


 1          which has the history of Franciscanism and 

 2          being established in 1858, a very small 

 3          liberal arts college -- the same with 

 4          Houghton College, Alfred University.  And the 

 5          vast majority of students that go to those 

 6          colleges are not wealthy.  

 7                 Can you expound on that?  Because you 

 8          touched on it in your testimony.

 9                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Sure.  As I 

10          said in my testimony, 72,000 of our students 

11          receive TAP, which means that their family 

12          earns less than $80,000 a year.  Two-thirds 

13          of our New York State students make under 

14          $125,000 a year.

15                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  So there is a wide 

16          diversity also in the student population.  

17          Could you talk about that?

18                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Certainly.  

19                 We are an extraordinarily diverse 

20          sector.  We graduate more students of color 

21          than either of the other sectors.  We attract 

22          students from all over the world -- that is a 

23          good thing for the economy.  We're bringing 

24          people into places where sometimes others are 


 1          leaving.  As you said, we have great economic 

 2          and income diversity within our group.  

 3                 I wish I could sit here and say all of 

 4          our schools are well-endowed and wealthy.  It 

 5          would be an issue we'd love to have.  But 

 6          that's simply not the case.  We have -- about 

 7          80 percent of schools serve under 2,000 

 8          students.  So changes in financial aid, 

 9          changes in enrollment, really can turn the 

10          tide for these schools.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  I assume you've 

12          done studies on economic impacts -- speaking 

13          of economic issues, of the colleges in the 

14          communities -- and for example, 

15          St. Bonaventure, again, it's one of the 

16          largest employers in Cattaraugus County, and 

17          many of those jobs are higher-paying jobs.  

18          So could you expound on that?

19                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Sure.  

20                 Our overall economic impact is about 

21          $80 billion, 400,000 jobs.  And what we know 

22          is that jobs are directly -- and economic 

23          impact is directly correlated with 

24          enrollment.  So when we see changes in 


 1          enrollment, we also see changes in jobs.

 2                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

 3                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  And we know 

 4          that in many corners of the state, we are the 

 5          job market.  And we're proud of that.

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you. 

 7                 So private colleges in upstate 

 8          New York already have seen some demographic 

 9          changes prior to the Excelsior program.

10                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Right.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  And were there any 

12          indications that this trend, where they're 

13          going with lower enrollments, was reversing 

14          before the Excelsior program was established?

15                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  We were 

16          certainly -- the data suggest, when you look 

17          at -- there was a study done by Georgetown 

18          University that suggested that a movement 

19          towards free college would impact enrollment 

20          at private not-for-profit colleges.  We have 

21          seen that borne out.  

22                 Obviously, enrollment changes for many 

23          reasons.  We certainly can't ascribe all 

24          changes to any single factor, including 


 1          Excelsior.  But what you saw is that schools 

 2          that primarily served New York State students 

 3          saw an unusually large drop in particularly 

 4          New York State freshmen who were enrolling in 

 5          those schools.  

 6                 For 30 of our schools, the aggregate 

 7          drop for New York State freshman was 

 8          8 percent.  If you -- from the fall of 2006, 

 9          the fall of 2007 -- if you took a snapshot of 

10          those same schools the year before, they 

11          actually saw a small uptick in New York State 

12          freshman enrollment.  

13                 So clearly the demographics are 

14          challenging for everyone, and I don't want to 

15          dismiss that, but I think what we're seeing 

16          here is something different than that.

17                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  And obviously a 

18          decline in enrollment in a freshman class is 

19          a four-year problem.

20                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Right.  It 

21          will just ripple through the cycle.

22                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  So you're seeing an 

23          uptick, and now you're seeing the enrollments 

24          go down since the Excelsior program.  What 


 1          are the private schools doing to try to 

 2          compete with free college education?

 3                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Well, I think 

 4          we're stepping up the things that we've 

 5          always done that have always allowed us to 

 6          work collaboratively and be a competitive 

 7          alternative to the public systems, and that 

 8          is we continue to increase the amount of 

 9          financial aid we provide.  Over the last 

10          decade, it's increased almost threefold.  

11                 You can only do that for so long, 

12          though, because you get that financial aid 

13          from tuition resources.  And obviously we're 

14          always sensitive -- we're continually 

15          sensitive about increasing tuition too much 

16          in order to recycle it back into students who 

17          really need the financial aid.  

18                 But we are making a very strong 

19          investment in additional financial aid.  

20          You'll see some colleges doing tuition 

21          resets, you'll see colleges will do -- 

22          colleges that are adopting more programs 

23          where students can graduate in three years.  

24                 So there is a lot that we're doing on 


 1          our own to make ourselves more competitive, 

 2          but there's only so much one can do.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  I too 

 4          am concerned about the proposal by the 

 5          Governor that actually would take away 

 6          Bundy Aid, $35 million.

 7                 And you spoke briefly about the HECap 

 8          program, which is the capital program for 

 9          private schools.  Are there barriers or 

10          challenges in using that type of funding?  Is 

11          it difficult or easy to use?

12                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Well, there 

13          are restrictions on it.  They're not 

14          unreasonable restrictions in many cases, but 

15          there is a three-to-one match.  Many of our 

16          schools do not and are no longer in a 

17          position to provide a three-to-one match.  

18                 It's also a cyclical program, so it's 

19          a competitive program and it's really an 

20          administrative decision when those 

21          competitions will be run.  So it's not 

22          something our schools can always rely upon.  

23          And it's the sort of program that in any one 

24          cycle, competitive cycle, perhaps 10 to 


 1          20 schools might get an award, and they'll 

 2          get an award for a capital program.  Some of 

 3          our schools are not delving into capital 

 4          projects right now because they have other 

 5          priorities.

 6                 And the main difference with Bundy is 

 7          Bundy is a source of operating aid that every 

 8          school gets, based on degree completion, so 

 9          it's an accountable program and it's very 

10          predictable.  So schools know that they will 

11          be getting the money, provided they're 

12          graduating the students that they typically 

13          graduate, and it can be used for financial 

14          aid, student supports -- it doesn't have to 

15          be used to build a building or renovate a 

16          building.  

17                 We like HECap.  We'd like to see more 

18          of it at some point.  But it's not the 

19          alternative to Bundy.

20                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

21                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

22          Crystal Peoples-Stokes.

23                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  Thank 

24          you, Madam Chair.  


 1                 And thank you, young lady, for your 

 2          presentation.  I was --

 3                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  And thank you 

 4          for calling me "young lady."

 5                 (Laughter.)

 6                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  I guess 

 7          I would join my colleagues in being a little 

 8          surprised with the total cut of Bundy Aid.  

 9          And I note in your comments that you gave us 

10          that it has been in existence since 1960.

11                 The amount of Bundy Aid that's totally 

12          cut from the budget, is it equal to what 

13          capital projects at private colleges and 

14          universities receive?

15                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  No.  No.  

16                 There are a few things about Bundy Aid 

17          funding.  Bundy Aid, when you look at the 

18          statute in the formulas in Bundy Aid -- 

19          Bundy Aid should be at about $181 million.  

20          That's what the formula drives.  Our schools 

21          haven't received that in a long time.  We've 

22          been pretty stable at $35 million, but that 

23          is not equivalent to any sort of capital 

24          spending.


 1                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  So --

 2                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  It's a number 

 3          that's been pegged for quite some time now.


 5          understand that the capital was a matching 

 6          grant.  But do you know what the total dollar 

 7          value of that is for your colleges and 

 8          universities?

 9                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Well, the 

10          HECap program is $35 million, so if you have 

11          a match of three-to-one, you'll have upwards 

12          of $100 million.

13                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  Okay.

14                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Unfortunately, 

15          many of our schools just aren't in the 

16          position to make that three-to-one match at 

17          this point.

18                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  Okay.  

19          I'm just trying to get an understanding of 

20          how we can wrap our heads around these two 

21          things as they relate to private schools and 

22          universities.  As you know, I have 11 of them 

23          in my area, and they all do -- actually do 

24          very well.


 1                 And I also noticed in your comments 

 2          that a lot of students of color are 

 3          successful at private colleges and 

 4          universities, graduating on time.  And those 

 5          that don't, your programs are successful at 

 6          retaining them until they graduate.  I wonder 

 7          if your staff and administrators look the 

 8          same as the student population.  

 9                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  I don't have 

10          that data with me now.  I can look into it.  

11                 Clearly our schools are placing a 

12          premium on diversity, on ensuring that the 

13          students we bring in have role models like 

14          themselves who have similar life experiences.  

15          But I could try to get you some data on that.

16                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  Okay.  

17          Well, I would love to see that data if you're 

18          able to get access to it.  

19                 Finally, it's going to be a challenge 

20          for us to figure out how to balance a budget 

21          when we have less resources coming from every 

22          direction.  But, you know, some things are 

23          really important, and clearly higher ed is 

24          the thing that fuels our economy.  And so I 


 1          can just say from my perspective that there 

 2          will be efforts put in to make sure that 

 3          students have access to good quality higher 

 4          ed in the State of New York.

 5                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Well, I 

 6          appreciate that.  And when you look at -- and 

 7          I know there are lots of tradeoffs in this 

 8          budget.  But when you look at an investment 

 9          of $35 million to ensure that we continue to 

10          have a solid network of private 

11          not-for-profit colleges, that doesn't just 

12          benefit our students, that benefits SUNY and 

13          CUNY students as well.  

14                 You've heard today that there are 

15          stresses in those systems as well.  Imagine 

16          how those stresses would be exacerbated if 

17          students were to feel that our schools were 

18          no longer a viable option and that they had 

19          to go to the SUNY and CUNY system.

20                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  Okay, I 

21          notice I have one minute and 32 seconds, so 

22          let me just ask this question quickly.  As it 

23          relates to student debt, when students are 

24          done with graduation, four year or six year, 


 1          how do your private schools match with, say, 

 2          SUNY or CUNY?

 3                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Yes, you'll 

 4          see some numbers in my testimony, 

 5          Assemblymember.  

 6                 Our average debt after four years -- 

 7          we know that the key to being able to repay 

 8          borrowing is to complete your degree, so 

 9          that's why we're so pleased that we do so 

10          well on that -- is about $30,000.  SUNY's 

11          average borrowing is about $27,000 for four 

12          years.  

13                 You'll hear a lot of talk about people 

14          owing hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Only 

15          5 percent of all student borrowers owe over 

16          $100,000, and those are borrowers who tend to 

17          go on for advanced degrees.  They're also 

18          borrowers who are most likely to be able to 

19          repay, because those advanced degrees are 

20          bringing them a very good return on their 

21          investment.

22                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  So the 

23          average student that graduates from, say -- 

24          I'll just pick Medaille -- ends up with a 


 1          debt load of $30,000 or so?

 2                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Correct.  

 3          Correct.  Which I think this is a national 

 4          number --

 5                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  That's 

 6          surprising.

 7                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  -- but about  

 8          4 percent of your income goes towards 

 9          repaying your student loan over about a 

10          10-year period.

11                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES:  Okay.  

12          Thank you.

13                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Sure.

14                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Sorry.  Senator 

15          Stavisky.

16                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.  Thank 

17          you for coming.

18                 Can you bring the loss of Bundy Aid 

19          down to the local level?  In other words, as 

20          Senator Young mentioned about 

21          St. Bonaventure, how is that going to affect 

22          the local community if you lay off X number 

23          of people?

24                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Absolutely.  


 1                 Well, we know that we can certainly 

 2          tell, and I can give some examples of -- we 

 3          certainly know what kind of economic impact 

 4          our schools bring throughout the state.  

 5                 We know, for instance, in the North 

 6          Country we have an economic impact of 

 7          $675 million, we employ -- we are responsible 

 8          for almost 4,600 jobs.  In the Southern Tier, 

 9          we have an impact of $5.3 billion, we're 

10          responsible for about 35,000 jobs.  

11                 Any diminution of funding that causes 

12          a retrenchment in our schools will impact our 

13          job numbers.  We certainly hope it would 

14          never be such a retrenchment that you would 

15          see schools having to make the ultimate sorts 

16          of decisions, but we clearly know that when 

17          we lose enrollment, when we're not in a 

18          position to keep students because they know 

19          they're having issues with affordability -- 

20          and a loss of Bundy will exacerbate that -- 

21          we know that that impacts jobs.

22                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Well, in other 

23          words, what you're -- extrapolating what 

24          you're saying, that there's going to be a 


 1          burden on the local social services --

 2                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Absolutely.  

 3          We are such a major presence, and you all who 

 4          have our schools or are near our schools know 

 5          that as well as I.  We are such a major 

 6          presence, when we catch a cold, you sneeze, 

 7          or whatever it is they say.

 8                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Everybody sneezes.

 9                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  And it's 

10          really bad flu season, so we don't want that 

11          to go around.

12                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Let me ask you one 

13          other totally different question, and that is 

14          the HECap awards.  I know we've spoken about 

15          it.  

16                 The first part of the question is, 

17          have any of the colleges had a problem in 

18          meeting the three-for-one match?  And the 

19          second part, are there any other ways that it 

20          can be done?  I was thinking perhaps in terms 

21          of endowment or some other mechanism.  

22                 Are there any other ways that 

23          institutions can receive capital money 

24          without the onerous burden -- if they just 


 1          can't raise the --

 2                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Yup, our 

 3          schools --

 4                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  You know, 

 5          Columbia -- with all due respect, they'll 

 6          have no problem matching.

 7                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Right.

 8                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  But St. John's used 

 9          to be in my district, and they received a 

10          HECap award about 10 years ago.

11                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Right.

12                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  I don't know --

13                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  So I think the 

14          match requirement, you know, really depends 

15          on the school's situation at any point in 

16          time and how critical the capital repair is, 

17          whether they're going to put that match 

18          requirement ahead of other things.  But I do 

19          think for some schools the match requirement 

20          is a very difficult thing.  

21                 The fact that it does take a long 

22          period of time to access the money, and 

23          during that period of time, time is money -- 

24          so if you were hoping to get shovels in the 


 1          ground on a building and it's taking a year 

 2          to know whether you're going to get the HECap 

 3          award, that's going to affect your 

 4          willingness to participate in the program.

 5                 When the program was first conceived 

 6          in 2005, it was a formulaic program where 

 7          every campus received money based on their 

 8          graduation rates, their TAP enrollment, and 

 9          that allowed campuses to better plan for how 

10          they would use the money.  They knew they'd 

11          be getting it, they knew they could, over 

12          time, accumulate the match that they would 

13          need.  There was a three-to-one match, but 

14          because they knew how much they'd be getting, 

15          they also knew how much of a match they'd 

16          have to put in and they could plan for it.  

17                 That's something we'd certainly like 

18          to discuss, whether we can go back to that 

19          sort of formulaic approach.

20                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Right.

21                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  And I think it 

22          cuts out a lot of the administrative burdens 

23          of running the program.

24                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Yeah, I've heard 


 1          complaints about the lack of speed in 

 2          receiving the funding that they've already 

 3          planned and are entitled to receive.

 4                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Yeah, and our 

 5          schools like the program.  And we're very -- 

 6          we're very pleased that right now we're in 

 7          the middle of a competition, and there's 

 8          $70 million out there.  It's a few years of 

 9          funding that hadn't been released, so now 

10          it's being released, and we're very grateful 

11          for that.  

12                 It's just -- I think our main takeaway 

13          from all this is we certainly hope it won't 

14          be an either/or, either Bundy or HECap.

15                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.

16                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

17                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Victor 

18          Pichardo.

19                 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO:  Thank you, 

20          Madam Chair.  

21                 Madam President, thank you for your 

22          time today at this hearing.

23                 I have two questions.  I'll try to 

24          keep as brief as possible.  So first and 


 1          foremost, in your testimony you mentioned 

 2          that part of the point is to provide a 

 3          separate match for minorities serving 

 4          institutions.  

 5                 You have 18 undergraduate campuses 

 6          that are considered 25 percent or more as 

 7          minority-serving institutions.  So what would 

 8          be the difference in the cost between a 

 9          non-minority-serving institution to one of 

10          the minority-serving institutions?  What is 

11          the difference to the school, and what is the 

12          difference to the state in terms of the 

13          Excelsior program?

14                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  We can get you 

15          some -- I'll have to get back to you on data 

16          on what the net cost of some of our 

17          minority-serving institutions is versus a 

18          non-minority-serving institution.

19                 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO:  Sure.

20                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  But I think 

21          the important takeaway from that is we 

22          already have colleges, particularly 

23          minority-serving institutions, that because 

24          they keep their tuition very low, they don't 


 1          have the capacity to provide significant 

 2          financial aid.  Nor do they necessarily need 

 3          to provide significant financial aid, because 

 4          they have measured their tuition to know 

 5          that's affordable for the students that 

 6          they're serving.

 7                 So when you come in with a program 

 8          like the Enhanced Tuition Award and you tell 

 9          those institutions "Your students can only 

10          get this money if you provide a match," they 

11          are the least likely to have the resources -- 

12          because they are a low-tuition institution -- 

13          to be able to provide that, and therefore 

14          their students are not able to access the 

15          money that's made available.

16                 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO:  If you can give 

17          me just a -- even a ballpark figure just to 

18          have a sense, that would be great.

19                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Okay.

20                 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO:  And my second 

21          question -- I think I already know the answer 

22          to this, but you mentioned earlier that the 

23          Legislature passed in both houses to extend 

24          two state scholarship programs to allow 


 1          students at private not-for-profit colleges 

 2          and universities to benefit, and the 

 3          Executive vetoed it.  

 4                 Did the Executive include this in his 

 5          budget?

 6                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  They were not 

 7          included.  But I'm hopeful that we can have 

 8          discussions about it.  

 9                 I know it's a tough budget year, I 

10          know the Governor, and there's lots of 

11          decisions that need to be made by my friends 

12          in the Budget Division, and I just hope we 

13          can discuss some of these issues.

14                 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO:  Hope springs 

15          eternal.  Thank you, Madam President. 

16                 Thank you, Madam Chair.

17                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Senator Krueger.

18                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Thank you.

19                 So Bundy Aid's $35 million.  The 

20          Governor seems to imply in his budget he's 

21          taking that, but he's giving you the capital 

22          money.  You pointed out here that you 

23          don't -- one, you would like both, but two, 

24          you see it as apples and oranges and 


 1          different issues.

 2                 I need to understand a little more 

 3          about how Bundy Aid is distributed among -- 

 4          you have 110 members?

 5                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  A little -- 

 6          right.  Right.

 7                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  So is it just 

 8          $350,000 each college?  Or how --

 9                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  No, it's based 

10          on actually the mean -- the mean award is 

11          about $330,000 per college.  But it varies 

12          significantly based on degrees awarded.

13                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  The number of 

14          degrees awarded.

15                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  So there is an 

16          incentive.  It's outcome-based, in that if 

17          you're not graduating students -- and we know 

18          there are bad outcomes for students who start 

19          college and aren't able to finish, so we know 

20          how important it is to get them over the 

21          finish line.  So it's based on, basically, 

22          the number of degrees you award.

23                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  But not necessarily 

24          the number of low-income students you're 


 1          providing degrees to --

 2                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Correct.

 3                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  -- just across the 

 4          board.

 5                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Correct.

 6                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  But the Bundy Aid 

 7          itself is then used by the colleges 

 8          specifically as financial assistance to 

 9          low-income students?

10                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Bundy Aid is 

11          unrestricted, but one of the requirements of 

12          the program is that they submit to HESC what 

13          the use of the money and the purpose of the 

14          money -- and the money is primarily used for 

15          financial aid.  And really any money that 

16          goes towards reducing the need for a tuition 

17          increase or tuition revenues is really aid 

18          that's going to help the student.

19                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  And are you able to 

20          give me an estimate so -- you said the mean 

21          distribution is $330,000 per institution.  Do 

22          you know what the mean distribution of 

23          financial aid in total for your schools are, 

24          on average?


 1                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  We know that 

 2          our schools provide about $5.4 billion a year 

 3          in total.  I don't have -- I could see if I 

 4          could get how that breaks out.

 5                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Five-point-four 

 6          billion a year --

 7                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Billion.  From 

 8          their own resources, right.

 9                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  -- of financial aid.

10                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Right.

11                 And I have to say, it's amazing when 

12          you -- relatively small schools, when I hear 

13          the kind of money they put into financial 

14          aid, I'm kind of blown out of the water.  You 

15          will have a small school that's providing 

16          $20 million, $30 million of financial aid a 

17          year.  And they do that by discounting their 

18          tuitions.

19                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  So I know you 

20          originally from your work in Budget.  So all 

21          in all, as much as $35 million sounds like a 

22          lot of money for any of us to lose, it's a 

23          relatively small amount of money for these 

24          institutions to lose in the total package of 


 1          financial assistance that they are providing.

 2                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  I would 

 3          disagree with you on that.  I think our 

 4          schools, so many of our schools are so 

 5          challenged at this point that -- you know, 

 6          and again, it will sound cliched, but every 

 7          dollar counts.  

 8                 If a school that is -- if a school 

 9          loses $100,000, there is going to be less 

10          financial aid.  They simply -- there are only 

11          a certain number of avenues schools can go 

12          down anymore to find revenues.  We're trying 

13          to keep a line on tuition revenues.  There's 

14          only so many places one can look.

15                 So I think it is very impactful for 

16          our schools to lose this money.  I also think 

17          it sends a message to our schools.  Our 

18          schools have always looked at Bundy Aid as 

19          kind of that covenant between the state and 

20          our private colleges, that we want you here, 

21          we need you here to help educate 1.2 million 

22          students.  We can't do it alone, taxpayers 

23          can't do it alone.  

24                 If you take away that sole funding 


 1          source that is for private colleges and 

 2          private colleges only, I do fear it really 

 3          kind of starts redefining the state's 

 4          relationship with our private colleges.

 5                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  And because the 

 6          Governor's people make the argument it's a 

 7          small drop in the bucket á la the math we 

 8          just discussed, and it's not necessarily 

 9          going to the schools in greatest need of more 

10          assistance and financial aid, is there a way 

11          to rethink targeting the Bundy Aid to, as you 

12          just described, the schools who have the 

13          greatest need and are serving the significant 

14          numbers of low-income students who would not 

15          be able to go to these institutions if not 

16          for this money?  Is there a way to rethink it 

17          in light of the debate that's going on with 

18          the Governor's budget?

19                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  You know, I 

20          think the first thing -- I think that 

21          conversation becomes more possible if we were 

22          to fully fund the program.  

23                 But at $35 million, I think the way to 

24          distribute it now is fair.  We have some 


 1          schools that are larger schools that confer 

 2          more degrees -- those are incredibly 

 3          important schools both to local economies, to 

 4          the opportunities that they provide students, 

 5          to our national and international 

 6          reputation -- and I think they need to be 

 7          part of that, part of that assistance. 

 8                 And they are also the very schools 

 9          that when they're able to recruit low-income 

10          students, those students go at an 

11          incredibly -- many of them for free or at 

12          incredibly reduced cost.  And it's things 

13          like Bundy that make it possible and really 

14          incentivize our schools to have more skin in 

15          the game.

16                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  And what would be 

17          your definition of a fully funded Bundy Aid 

18          program fee?

19                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  The statute -- 

20          and I'm not calling for it this year, but if 

21          anyone wants to do it, go ahead.  The statute 

22          would, if you ran the formula that's in the 

23          statute, it'd be about $181 million.

24                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  Thank you very much.


 1                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblywoman 

 2          Fahy.

 3                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Thank you, 

 4          Madam Chair.  I appreciate it.  

 5                 And thank you, Ms. Labate.  It's great 

 6          to have you here, and I very much appreciate 

 7          your testimony.

 8                 And I have to say this -- it may be a 

 9          rare moment, I rarely would have to disagree 

10          with my friend and colleague Senator Krueger, 

11          but $35 million sounds like a big number to 

12          me from the Bundy Aid, with all due respect 

13          to Senator Krueger.

14                 SENATOR KRUEGER:  (Inaudible.)

15                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  So with all due 

16          respect, it sounds like a very big number, 

17          and I know -- I very proudly represent a few 

18          private schools -- St. Rose, Sage Colleges, 

19          College of Pharmacy.  And they -- well, I 

20          know many of them really try to be as 

21          supportive as possible -- the Excelsior 

22          program last year -- they also recognize the 

23          financial challenges that they face.  And the 

24          one thing I have so appreciated about -- 


 1          especially here in upstate New York, because 

 2          I'm not a native New Yorker, is the wealth of 

 3          options.  Because different things work for 

 4          different students, and I hear this all the 

 5          time from my own children and their friends.  

 6          Some children thrive and want large campuses, 

 7          and others need more of that intimacy that 

 8          they may get at the smallest of the 

 9          colleges -- in my area, Maria College.

10                 So the Bundy Aid is of particular 

11          concern.  And I also want to echo the 

12          comments of another colleague, Assemblywoman 

13          Peoples-Stokes, and the thing I've been most 

14          impressed with, with some of the private 

15          schools, and that is their graduation rates 

16          of underrepresented populations, children of 

17          color.  And again, it's the graduation rates.  

18                 So if you could just -- if you have 

19          any statistics at your fingers, that would 

20          really help me.  And I also need to know that 

21          I'm one of the two bills -- it was my bill 

22          that was vetoed last year.  I was 

23          disappointed that it wasn't put into the 

24          budget, because it was vetoed based on the 


 1          budgetary concerns with regards to master's 

 2          in teaching education.  So I would welcome 

 3          the opportunity to work with you and of 

 4          course my colleagues here again with moving 

 5          that bill and ideally even putting it into 

 6          the budget.

 7                 But could you just talk a little bit 

 8          about the impact -- it seems like there's a 

 9          real divide in some of the private schools, 

10          and the Bundy Aid would be, I would think, 

11          just devastating, the loss of that.

12                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  I think it 

13          would be.  I think it would, for some -- for 

14          many of our schools that again are on 

15          razor -- are on thin margins.  They're okay, 

16          but they're on thin margins, and yet another 

17          hit to the system, I think, would be -- what 

18          it will mean is less financial aid for 

19          students or less support for jobs in the 

20          communities, jobs at the campuses.  

21                 There will be some impact, and some 

22          impacts that I don't think any of us want to 

23          see when a school loses aid from the state.  

24          There simply are not a lot of avenues to go 


 1          down for many of those schools to make that 

 2          up.

 3                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Okay.  And 

 4          Bundy Aid at its height -- I know you were 

 5          just asked about what you would be entitled 

 6          to overall, but at its height I understand it 

 7          was much bigger a few years ago.  So you're 

 8          already at -- this is an all-time low anyway, 

 9          the $35 million, is that the lowest it has 

10          been?

11                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  It has been 35 

12          for about four years now.  It was a little 

13          over 44 before that.  It was cut in half, I 

14          believe, in the 1980s, and that was a really 

15          hard pill to swallow.  But we have been 

16          holding firm at 35 -- about 35 million.

17                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  For four years.

18                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  And it's an 

19          important 35.

20                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Okay.  Any 

21          follow-up statistics on students of color, 

22          the graduation rates --

23                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  We can get 

24          that -- let me get you that.


 1                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  Because I know 

 2          that -- I remember some of those from last 

 3          year, and they were very powerful.

 4                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Yeah, okay.

 5                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN FAHY:  I look forward to 

 6          working with you on all of this, because I 

 7          share many of the concerns that you've raised 

 8          today.

 9                 And thank you again, Madam Chair.

10                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Thank you.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

12          Thanks for your testimony here today.

13                 CICU PRESIDENT LABATE:  Thank you.

14                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

15                 Next, NYPIRG, Smitha Varghese.

16                 MS. VARGHESE:  Good afternoon.  My 

17          name is Smitha Varghese.  I am the 

18          chairperson of the New York Public Interest 

19          Research Group, otherwise known as NYPIRG.  I 

20          am also a student at Queens College.  

21                 With me today is Conner Wolfe, who is 

22          NYPIRG's legislative policy associate.  He is 

23          also working on our higher education 

24          campaign, and he goes to SUNY Oneonta.  And 


 1          Blair Horner, our executive director, is with 

 2          us as well.  

 3                 As you may know, NYPIRG is a 

 4          statewide, college-student-directed 

 5          organization.  All of the members of our 

 6          board of directors are college students 

 7          elected by the student body at each of the 

 8          campuses that have voted to have a NYPIRG 

 9          chapter.  We have chapters at SUNY, CUNY, and 

10          independent colleges.  

11                 We appreciate this opportunity to 

12          share our preliminary perspective on the 

13          Governor's 2018-2019 Executive Budget for 

14          higher education in New York State.  We will 

15          now summarize our written testimony, and 

16          we're available to take questions afterwards.

17                 MR. WOLFE:  Both the public and 

18          independent college sectors provide important 

19          services to their at-risk students, those who 

20          come from educationally disadvantaged 

21          communities and have qualified for college 

22          admission.  These opportunity programs, 

23          including HEOP, EOP, SEEK, and ASAP, are an  

24          incredible asset to the State of New York.  


 1          They are often designed for the educationally 

 2          and economically disadvantaged and have a 

 3          steady track record of success in increasing 

 4          graduation rates.  

 5                 Students involved in the nationally 

 6          recognized ASAP program offered by the City 

 7          University of New York graduate at more than 

 8          double the rate of non-ASAP students, with 

 9          increases in graduation rates after three 

10          years of at least 30 percent.  

11                 In addition, we urge that Bundy Aid be 

12          restored.  These programs' successes are 

13          bolstered by not only providing resources 

14          like economic counseling but, in cases like 

15          ASAP, the ASAP program at CUNY, money for 

16          textbooks, tuition, and transportation.  

17          Programs known to be widely successful -- and 

18          in many cases the only opportunity some 

19          students may have to pursue a higher 

20          education -- must be adequately funded by the 

21          government.  NYPIRG strongly urges the 

22          Legislature to reject the Executive's 

23          proposed cuts to these important programs and 

24          to take steps towards expanding funding to 


 1          these opportunity programs.  

 2                 The biggest financial aid program in 

 3          the State of New York is the Tuition 

 4          Assistance Program.  Like the opportunity 

 5          programs, TAP offers assistance to 

 6          lower-income college students in both the 

 7          public and independent college sectors.  

 8                 TAP should cover more than the cost of 

 9          tuition for those who qualify and be flexible 

10          enough to meet the needs of all types of 

11          New Yorkers, not just the traditional 

12          straight-from-high-school-to-college 

13          full-time student it was initially designed 

14          to serve.  

15                 Regarding public colleges, the maximum 

16          TAP award should cover the full tuition 

17          charge.  Beyond that, TAP should expand to 

18          offer assistance to part-time students, 

19          undocumented students, incarcerated 

20          individuals, and graduate students.  

21                 The Governor took a positive step by 

22          including funding for college students who 

23          are undocumented.  We now urge your support.

24                 MS. VARGHESE:  Now, last year we 


 1          strongly supported the stated position of 

 2          Governor Cuomo that the cost of attending 

 3          public college has become too expensive and 

 4          that the state should ensure that low-, 

 5          moderate-, and middle-income college students 

 6          can all attend public college tuition-free.  

 7          Thus we supported the philosophy behind the 

 8          Governor's proposed Excelsior Scholarship 

 9          Program, which would charge no tuition to 

10          students whose income does not exceed 

11          $125,000.  

12                 However, like many first-year 

13          programs, there are additional steps that 

14          should be taken to help it achieve its goals.  

15          As you know, Excelsior recipients that fail 

16          to graduate within four years are faced with 

17          a daunting problem:  The entire previous four 

18          years of free tuition get turned into a loan 

19          which they then must pay off.  

20                 Additionally, since there is a 

21          30-credit per year requirement to maintain 

22          Excelsior eligibility, SUNY and CUNY will 

23          need to ensure that courses are available to 

24          them.  Yet according to a CUNY survey, over a 


 1          third of CUNY students reported not being 

 2          able to register for a course they needed for 

 3          their major.  

 4                 To ensure that students are able to 

 5          graduate on time, more funding must go 

 6          towards expanded course availability and 

 7          student advisement services.  We have heard 

 8          from a number of students who struggle to 

 9          balance their full-time course load, jobs, 

10          and personal obligations.  Some students 

11          can't afford to take a full-time course load.  

12          In a recent report put out by the CUNY Office 

13          of Institutional Research and Assessment, of 

14          students that work, 79 percent reported that 

15          they work to pay for living expenses, and 

16          over a third of those who work believe that 

17          having a job negatively impacts their 

18          academic performance.  

19                 While it's laudable that the Excelsior 

20          Scholarship will increase its income 

21          threshold to $110,000 and more students will 

22          qualify for free tuition, we urge that the 

23          program be further expanded to students in 

24          need, including part-time students.  


 1                 In addition, this year's Executive 

 2          Budget continues to hike tuition for all SUNY 

 3          and CUNY students who don't qualify for 

 4          financial assistance.  Ironically, this year 

 5          the Executive wants to do more to protect 

 6          college students from the predatory student 

 7          loan practices.  While we urge support for 

 8          that proposal, freezing public college 

 9          tuition would help even more by reducing the 

10          need to take out student loans to begin with.  

11          We urge that the Legislature freeze tuition 

12          this year.

13                 In order to ensure that more 

14          affordable public higher education comes 

15          without compromising quality, our 

16          universities must receive more state support.  

17          State funding remains largely flat, even as 

18          the costs to maintain SUNY and CUNY have 

19          increased.  NYPIRG recommends that the 

20          Legislature enhance funding for CUNY and SUNY 

21          senior and community colleges in order to 

22          help students get the classes they need to 

23          graduate, reduce class sizes, and bolster 

24          student advisement.  


 1                 We also support the Governor's 

 2          proposal to require that public colleges 

 3          establish food pantries.  A recent report by 

 4          NYPIRG and other groups looked at food 

 5          insecurity on college campuses.  Consistent 

 6          with prior studies, 48 percent of respondents 

 7          reported food insecurity in the previous 

 8          30 days.  That's 48 percent.  NYPIRG urges 

 9          that the Legislature include monies in the 

10          budget to allow public and independent 

11          colleges and universities to develop 

12          recommendations on how best to tackle food 

13          and housing insecurities, including opening 

14          food pantries at all CUNY and SUNY campuses.

15                 MR. WOLFE:  In conclusion, the demand 

16          to graduate more students from college with 

17          less student loan debt should result in 

18          policies that both decrease tuition and 

19          increase state support to institutions of 

20          higher education, as well as funding to 

21          financial aid programs such as TAP and the 

22          Excelsior scholarship.  In order to provide a 

23          quality and affordable higher education for 

24          all New Yorkers, the state must commit itself 


 1          to increasing public funding.  

 2                 Thank you.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

 4                 Briefly to Assemblywoman Glick.

 5                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  First of all, 

 6          thank you for your communication with us.  

 7                 I know that you have some more 

 8          detailed information on the inability of 

 9          students to get course sections, which is 

10          obviously a concern of ours, so at some point 

11          if we could have the data that you have on 

12          that, that would be very helpful.  

13                 And I thank you for your continuing 

14          advocacy on behalf of college students, of 

15          one I used to be, and thank you for -- where?  

16          I'm a Queens alum, so --

17                 MS. VARGHESE:  Oh, cool.

18                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you very 

19          much for being here today.

20                 MS. VARGHESE:  Thank you.  

21                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  

22                 Senator Stavisky.

23                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Thank you.  

24                 Assemblywoman, I am also a -- I was a 


 1          graduate student at Queens College.  And I 

 2          thank you for coming.  Queens College is in 

 3          my Senate district, so I'm particularly 

 4          proud, and I've had a -- Blair is smiling, 

 5          because he knows I've had a long connection 

 6          through mutual friends, so to speak, with 

 7          NYPIRG.  And I thank you.

 8                 Let me ask you one question.  You 

 9          have -- if you've been listening to the 

10          testimony here today, what's your reaction?  

11          How do you feel about what the 

12          administrators, the higher-ups at SUNY and 

13          CUNY and the private colleges are saying?  

14          How do you feel as a student?

15                 MS. VARGHESE:  I just feel, as a 

16          student, that there needs to be more of a 

17          conversation on the fact that low-income 

18          students are kind of getting the lower end of 

19          all of this.  

20                 You know, I'm low-income, and I 

21          wouldn't be able to go to Queens College, I 

22          wouldn't be able be here today if it were not 

23          for TAP.  My brother is a SEEK recipient as 

24          well.  


 1                 But they're cutting the funding for 

 2          the most vulnerable students, and I feel like 

 3          that conversation hasn't really been talked 

 4          about so much.

 5                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  Well, thank you for 

 6          what you're doing.  We're very proud of 

 7          Queens College, and we're proud of everything 

 8          that takes place there, as well as other 

 9          institutions of CUNY.  

10                 Thank you.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  

12                 Senator Savino would like to speak.

13                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you.  

14                 Thank you for your testimony.  You 

15          mentioned towards the end of your testimony 

16          the issue of food insecurity, and you're not 

17          the first people to talk about that today.  

18          And I think we don't really think about that, 

19          but the number of students that are actually 

20          suffering from food insecurity is rising.  

21                 And you mentioned the CUNY program 

22          which is kind of like a facilitated 

23          enrollment program which identifies students 

24          based on their financial need and tries to 


 1          match them up with whatever potential 

 2          benefits they might be entitled to.  Is that 

 3          only happening at CUNY?  Or do other -- to 

 4          the best of your knowledge, do other -- does 

 5          SUNY do that, do other private colleges do 

 6          that?  Do they have a similar program?  

 7          Because I think that that would be one of the 

 8          ways to help close that gap.  

 9                 If you don't know the answer, that's 

10          fine, but I think it's something that we 

11          can --

12                 MR. HORNER:  The short answer is -- 

13          the Single Stop program?

14                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Yeah.

15                 MR. HORNER:  I don't believe that SUNY 

16          has a program in the same way as CUNY does.

17                 SENATOR SAVINO:  I'm sorry, say that 

18          again, Blair?

19                 MR. HORNER:  They don't have a program 

20          in the same way as CUNY.

21                 SENATOR SAVINO:  In the same way -- 

22          but that would certainly be something that I 

23          think we should be advocating for, because 

24          again, there should be a place where the 


 1          student walks in the door and the first thing 

 2          they encounter besides the bill or the 

 3          tuition bill is access to information that 

 4          could help them remain in school.  

 5                 And if being food-insecure is one of 

 6          them, they may not know they're eligible for 

 7          SNAP, they may not know that they're eligible 

 8          for cash assistance or what other benefits 

 9          might exist there.  

10                 So it's great that CUNY seems to be 

11          doing it.  I'd be interested to see where 

12          they do it, at what point of interaction with 

13          students, and then how we can encourage other 

14          universities to do that.  Because local 

15          social service agencies could certainly 

16          participate in expanding information in what 

17          we call the facilitated enrollment process.  

18                 Thank you.

19                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.  

20                 Thank you for being here today.

21                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

22                 MR. HORNER:  Thank you.

23                 MS. VARGHESE:  Thank you.  

24                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Next we have 


 1          the Association of Proprietary Colleges, 

 2          Donna Gurnett, president.

 3                 MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  All right.  Can 

 4          you hear me?  Okay.  

 5                 Chairwoman Young, Chairwoman 

 6          Weinstein, Assemblywoman Glick, members of 

 7          the Legislature, thank you for this 

 8          opportunity to present this testimony on 

 9          behalf of the Association of Proprietary 

10          Colleges.  My name is Donna Stelling-Gurnett, 

11          and I'm the president of the association, and 

12          it's my honor to be here today.  

13                 APC represents the degree-granting 

14          proprietary sector here in New York State.  

15          We currently have 12 members located on 

16          23 campuses across the state, and all of our 

17          members offer at least associate degrees.  

18          Most also offer bachelor's degrees, and some 

19          offer master's and doctoral-level programs.

20                 APC members have a long-standing 

21          history of providing an affordable and 

22          quality education.  Most APC members are 

23          privately held, family-owned-and-operated 

24          institutions handed down from generation to 


 1          generation.  On average, our members have 

 2          been in existence for over 90 years, and more 

 3          than half of our members have been founded 

 4          over 100 years ago.  

 5                 We educate over 35,000 students and 

 6          employ more than 6,000 faculty and staff, 

 7          making our members strong economic drivers in 

 8          their local communities.  APC members are 

 9          committed to keeping student loan debt low, 

10          academic achievement high, and the pathway to 

11          employment is our priority.

12                 Now I'd like to talk with you today 

13          about the Enhanced Tuition Assistance 

14          program, or ETA, and its impact on our 

15          sector.  As you know, during the last budget 

16          year the Enhanced Tuition Assistance program 

17          was founded to provide additional financial 

18          support for students attending the state's 

19          private not-for-profit colleges.  

20                 Unfortunately, students attending the 

21          state's proprietary colleges were 

22          inadvertently left out of this program.  So 

23          I'd like to take this opportunity to thank 

24          the Legislature and particularly 


 1          Assemblyman Pichardo and Senator Klein, who 

 2          introduced legislation in both houses that 

 3          essentially expanded the definition of a 

 4          private institution to include students that 

 5          attend all private colleges in New York 

 6          State.  These measures passed with 

 7          overwhelming bipartisan support.  

 8                 However, unfortunately, late last 

 9          month when the measure went to Governor 

10          Cuomo, it was vetoed and he indicated that 

11          these were issues that should be renegotiated 

12          during the next legislative session.

13                 So as we start this new session, we're 

14          hopeful that we will be able to get this 

15          oversight corrected.  Both Senator Klein and 

16          Assemblyman Pichardo have once again 

17          introduced legislation that would enable all 

18          students attending private colleges to 

19          participate in the ETA program.  Senate Bill 

20          7353 and Assembly Bill 7697 have recently 

21          been introduced, and I would ask for your 

22          support of these two measures.

23                 We think that students attending 

24          APC-member colleges are a perfect fit for the 


 1          ETA program.  For instance, over 90 percent 

 2          of our students come from New York State, and 

 3          over 90 percent of our graduates remain in 

 4          the state to live and work.  As well, our 

 5          on-time graduation rates are very strong, our 

 6          associate and bachelor-level rates are in 

 7          line -- they either meet or exceed the 

 8          statewide average, and many of our colleges 

 9          offer a three 12-credit semester education 

10          model which encourages their students to 

11          attend college year-round, which actually 

12          makes them be able to graduate early.  We 

13          also think that on-time graduation is key to 

14          keeping student loan debt low.  

15                 APC members are known for their small 

16          classroom sizes, individual attention,  

17          financial aid counseling, and financial 

18          literacy training -- and these are all key 

19          components to keeping student loan debt low.  

20          In fact, if you look at the data from the 

21          college scorecard, you'll see that students 

22          at APC member institutions carry $21,900 in 

23          student loan debt.  So that's significantly 

24          lower than we see at the state average of 


 1          $32,000 or the national average of $29,000.  

 2                 As well, we have high job placement 

 3          rates, with over 85 percent of our graduates 

 4          finding jobs in their field of study within 

 5          12 months of graduation.  

 6                 And finally, APC member institutions 

 7          educate a truly diverse student body.  We 

 8          have a high percentage of women, minorities, 

 9          and veterans, all exactly the type of student 

10          that the ETA program was designed to help.

11                 In my written testimony I provide many 

12          stories, personal stories from students that 

13          would benefit from the ETA program if they 

14          were eligible to participate.  We estimate 

15          that approximately 8500 students would be 

16          eligible for an ETA award at some level, for 

17          a total usage of between $5 million and 

18          $7 million.  So I ask you to consider these 

19          stories and support parity for our students 

20          by allowing them to participate in the ETA 

21          program.  

22                 In conclusion, I'd like to thank you 

23          for your past support of our students and ask 

24          that you please consider our request, and I'm 


 1          happy to answer any questions.  Thank you.

 2                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  I think we'll 

 3          pass with that shout-out to Assemblyman 

 4          Pichardo and -- unless, Senator Young, do 

 5          you?

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  I just want to say 

 7          thank you so much for your testimony today.  

 8                 The Legislature did want to fix the 

 9          situation with the Excelsior Scholarship 

10          Program last year.  We did take action.  And 

11          as you know, you have several members that 

12          range all the way from New York City to 

13          Long Island to Western New York, including 

14          Jamestown Business College in my district --

15                 MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  Right.

16                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  They all do a great 

17          job.  The job placement rate from the 

18          business colleges is phenomenal, and we need 

19          to have them as part of our array of 

20          educational opportunities for people so that 

21          they can go out, join the workforce, and have 

22          productive careers.  

23                 So I want to thank you for your 

24          advocacy.  And I know with the veto message 


 1          the Governor said that it was a budget issue, 

 2          it needs to be solved in the state budget, so 

 3          I agree that now is the time to take care of 

 4          that.  So thank you so much.

 5                 MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  Thank you.

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

 7                 SENATOR STAVISKY:  On behalf of Plaza 

 8          and Monroe, we thank you.

 9                 MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  Oh, thank you 

10          very much.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So I think 

12          that's it.  If there are any follow-up 

13          questions, we'll be in touch by email.

14                 MS. STELLING-GURNETT:  Okay.  Thank 

15          you very much.

16                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

17                 Our next witnesses are On Point for 

18          College, three individuals:  Samuel Rowser, 

19          Kevin Marken, Allison Palmer.  Actually -- 

20          and Judy Lorimer.  Four.  Well, I guess the 

21          women decided not to stay.

22                 MR. ROWSER:  Good afternoon.

23                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Good afternoon.

24                 MR. ROWSER:  Judy and Allison won't be 


 1          accompanying us.  They couldn't get out of 

 2          New York City quick enough, so they weren't 

 3          able to make it.

 4                 My name is Sam Rowser.  I'm the 

 5          executive director for On Point for College, 

 6          and I have Kevin Marken, who is director for 

 7          our On Point programming --

 8                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Can you pull 

 9          the mic a little closer to you?

10                 MR. ROWSER:  Sure.  A little better?

11                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Much better.

12                 MR. ROWSER:  Okay.  Again, my name is 

13          Sam Rowser, I'm the executive director for 

14          On Point for College in Syracuse, and I have 

15          with me Kevin Marken, who is director for 

16          On Point in Utica.  

17                 I want to thank you, Madam Chair, for 

18          this opportunity to share with you and the 

19          Joint Budget Higher Ed Committee the NYS 

20          Postsecondary Success Network, and that is a 

21          combination of On Point for College, 

22          Goddard Riverside Options Program, and the 

23          New Settlement Apartments Program.  

24                 Today, On Point has evolved in two 


 1          offices.  We have over 24 employees, and 

 2          7,000 students have enrolled in college.  In 

 3          2012, On Point received funding from the HESC 

 4          organization.  It was part of the College 

 5          Access Challenge Grant, a federal grant that 

 6          enabled On Point to double its staff in 

 7          Syracuse, open a site in Utica, and provide 

 8          funding and guidance for a retention program 

 9          at the Goddard Riverside Options Program in 

10          Manhattan and New Settlement Apartments in 

11          the Bronx.

12                 This is the origin of the NYS 

13          Postsecondary Success Network.  Participants 

14          in this program are 17-to-29 years old, 

15          low-income, first generation.  Services are 

16          provided in 24 community centers, Boys and 

17          Girls Clubs, settlement houses, homeless 

18          shelters, libraries, municipal housing, 

19          refugee schools, GED sites.  Most of our 

20          participants are not in high school when they 

21          join our programs.  

22                 In one of our programs, 30 percent of 

23          the students that participate have no parent 

24          in their life, and 70 percent return for 


 1          their second year of college.  

 2                 One of the unique elements beyond 

 3          FAFSA and college application is the 

 4          non-academic support that we provide.  We 

 5          meet students in their neighborhoods and 

 6          provide college supplies, transportation to 

 7          New York State colleges through on-campus 

 8          visits.  In the first three weeks, we visit 

 9          all of our students when they go away to 

10          college.  We want to make sure they have 

11          their books, food, and meet their campus 

12          angels.  

13                 We continue our campus visits monthly 

14          for any of our students that are attending 

15          two-year colleges, weekly for community 

16          colleges in Syracuse, Utica, Herkimer, and 

17          New York City.  We provide reenrollment 

18          services, transfer services, job placement 

19          certificate program information, and free 

20          summer housing at Le Moyne College in 

21          Syracuse for homeless youth from any of our 

22          network locations. 

23                 Our vulnerable youth get help with 

24          eyeglasses, winter coats, and dentistry.  For 


 1          on-campus support, On Point supports all our 

 2          network students in upstate New York, while 

 3          Options and New Settlement work with all our 

 4          students in downstate New York.  

 5                 The Federal College Access Grant which 

 6          was administered by HESC ended in August of 

 7          2016.  Because of that support and funding, 

 8          from 2012 to 2016 the NYS Postsecondary 

 9          Network increased the number of students 

10          enrolled in college.  

11                 The decrease in funding has resulted 

12          in a decrease in staff and funding for basic 

13          needs.  We're not able to support as many 

14          students as we could before, so there's fewer 

15          crucial resources that keep them from 

16          dropping out.  We request funding to support 

17          our students to the finish line.  

18                 I'd like to thank the New York State 

19          Assembly for their support of On Point for 

20          College over the last two years.  They've 

21          given us $400,000 to work with over those 

22          last two years after the funding for HESC 

23          ended.  Given the funding, the network will 

24          be able to build a strong foundation and 


 1          position ourselves to expand next year to 

 2          support other students, especially the most 

 3          vulnerable Excelsior students.

 4                 We've been good stewards of the HESC 

 5          funding.  Securing HESC funding has enabled 

 6          On Point to leverage over $1 million from 

 7          national foundations like USA Funds, Kresge, 

 8          TG, and Lumina.  We were able to bring in 

 9          $2.8 million through our First in the World 

10          grant.  The Pell funding for the 4,000 

11          students that we currently serve has allowed 

12          us to raise $23 million each year for federal 

13          funding.  Over 10,000 students have 

14          participated between the three 

15          organizations -- 3,100 of those students have 

16          graduated, and 4,000 of them are currently in 

17          college.

18                 We thank you for this opportunity to 

19          share, and we are open for questions.

20                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  I think we're 

21          set, not needing questions.  Thank you for 

22          your work in the community.  And if we do 

23          have any follow-up questions, we'll be sure 

24          to reach out to you.


 1                 MR. ROWSER:  Thank you kindly.

 2                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  We 

 3          appreciate you being here today.

 4                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Next we have, 

 5          from the SUNY Student Assembly, Marc Cohen 

 6          and Austin Ostro, the president and the chief 

 7          of staff.  

 8                 Glad you could come up here.

 9                 MR. COHEN:  Thank you very much, Madam 

10          Chair.  

11                 On behalf of the Student Assembly and 

12          SUNY's 1.3 million students, I would like to 

13          thank Chairpersons Weinstein and Young and 

14          the entire Assembly Ways and Means and Senate 

15          Finance Committees for allowing us to testify 

16          today.  I'd also like to thank Chair Glick 

17          and Senator LaValle and the entire Assembly 

18          Higher Ed and Senate Higher Ed Committees for 

19          all that they do to support the State 

20          University of New York.  

21                 My name is Marc Cohen.  I'm a graduate 

22          student at the University at Albany, and I 

23          serve as president of the SUNY Student 

24          Assembly and as a member of the SUNY Board of 


 1          Trustees.  I'm joined by Student Assembly 

 2          Chief of Staff Austin Ostro. 

 3                 The Student Assembly is the recognized 

 4          system-wide student government, established 

 5          in state law, supporting SUNY’s 1.3 million 

 6          full- and part-time students.  The Student 

 7          Assembly advocates on behalf of the -- at the 

 8          local, state, and federal levels on behalf of 

 9          the collective student interests across a 

10          large range of policy areas.  Twice annually, 

11          SUNY SA brings hundreds of the system's 

12          student leaders from across the 64 campuses 

13          together for our general conferences where we 

14          establish our advocacy priorities, and 

15          student leaders have an opportunity to 

16          network and learn from one another.

17                 Outside of our conferences, elected 

18          representatives for our four-year and 

19          community college campuses meet monthly for 

20          executive committee meetings where we review 

21          progress on our advocacy efforts and refine 

22          our goals and strategy.  The Student Assembly 

23          also serves as the vehicle for representation 

24          of the student voice on the SUNY Board of 


 1          Trustees.  

 2                 The Student Assembly president, by 

 3          statute, is a voting member of the board, the 

 4          only voting member not appointed by the 

 5          Governor.  The Student Assembly also operates 

 6          standing committees devoted to prioritized 

 7          policy areas, which have open membership for 

 8          any interested student.  Focuses of these 

 9          committees include diversity, equity, and 

10          inclusion, sustainability, and campus safety.  

11                 In just her first few months in 

12          office, Chancellor Kristina Johnson has gone 

13          out of her way to engage the Student Assembly 

14          in a wide array of policy discussions.  We 

15          appreciate the input SUNY allowed the 

16          Student Assembly to have in crafting its 

17          executive budget request in November.  

18                 We were pleased to see certain key 

19          SUNY and Student Assembly legislative 

20          priorities find their way into the budget 

21          proposed by the Governor last week.  We 

22          applaud the Governor's call for a food pantry 

23          serving every public college campus in 

24          New York State so that no student need worry 


 1          about where they will find their next meal as 

 2          they focus on excellence in education. 

 3                 We were also pleased to see the 

 4          continued expansion of the Excelsior 

 5          Scholarship in the Governor's budget, which 

 6          will help even more New Yorkers access a 

 7          higher education.

 8                 There were some significant funding 

 9          areas where the Executive Budget falls short, 

10          and we encourage legislative action to ensure 

11          vital services continue to be provided to all 

12          SUNY students.  Last year, thanks to the 

13          leadership of Assemblymember Glick and 

14          Senator LaValle, $300,000 was appropriated in 

15          the enacted budget to launch a pilot program 

16          offering tele-mental health counseling to 

17          students on four SUNY campuses, which you 

18          heard Chancellor Johnson speak a bit about 

19          this morning.  

20                 Nearly two-thirds of SUNY students 

21          lack access to a full-time mental health 

22          professional on their campus.  Telemedicine 

23          is a cutting-edge way to give them access to 

24          the medical resources they need in a 


 1          cost-effective way.  While the program only 

 2          launched this past semester, we have already 

 3          heard from student government leaders and 

 4          administrators on the four pilot campuses 

 5          about how beneficial the program is proving 

 6          to be for students.  

 7                 We would like to see the program 

 8          expanded in the coming budget year to 10 

 9          campuses, which SUNY’s Academic Affairs 

10          office estimates would cost $1.15 million.  

11          Unfortunately, the proposed Executive Budget 

12          removes all funding for this program.  It is 

13          essential that the Legislature act to ensure 

14          students across the system have access to the 

15          mental health resources they need to thrive.  

16                 Successful pilot programs deserve to 

17          be taken to scale, and we hope that the 

18          Assembly and Senate see fit to include 

19          increased funding for tele-counseling in 

20          their proposed budgets.  Promoting mental 

21          health can have a positive impact on a host 

22          of policy priorities, including combating the 

23          opioid addiction, ensuring college 

24          completion, keeping campuses safe, and 


 1          enhancing the overall college experience.

 2                 As previously stated, the Student 

 3          Assembly appreciates the Governor's 

 4          commitment to combating food insecurity on 

 5          campuses.  Nearly 25 percent of students 

 6          reported experiencing food insecurity in the 

 7          2015-2016 academic year, based on a survey of 

 8          students attending 40 colleges by the 

 9          National Student Campaign Against Hunger and 

10          Homelessness. 

11                 We appreciate the work the SUNY system 

12          and our campuses have done over the past few 

13          years to promote food security.  Seventy 

14          percent of SUNY campuses currently operate a 

15          food pantry.  The Governor announced a 

16          $1 million appropriation to support the 

17          creation of food pantries in the lead-up to 

18          the State of the State, but that 

19          appropriation failed to materialize in his 

20          proposed budget.  At least some new funding 

21          should accompany a requirement for all 

22          campuses to operate food pantries or be 

23          associated with one, such that they don't 

24          have to redirect funding from other 


 1          functions.

 2                 The proposed budget also continues the 

 3          state’s traditional full-time equivalency 

 4          basis for funding of community colleges.  The 

 5          issue with using FTE as the sole basis for 

 6          funding is that a decrease in full-time 

 7          enrollment does not automatically translate 

 8          to a decreased need by students for academic 

 9          and administrative services on their 

10          campuses. 

11                 In a year when 27 out of the 30 of our 

12          community colleges are facing decreasing 

13          enrollment, this issue takes particular 

14          prominence.  SUNY proposed changing the 

15          community college formula in its budget 

16          request to ensure the same type of funding 

17          guarantee enjoyed by our four-year campuses 

18          schools through maintenance of effort.  If 

19          the Legislature does not act to fix the 

20          broken FTE basis for our community colleges, 

21          students will suffer the consequences of cuts 

22          to essential services.

23                 Students were also disappointed to see 

24          cuts to opportunity programs like EOP and EOC 


 1          in the Governor's proposed budget.  Cuts 

 2          exceeding $10 million to these programs would 

 3          harm SUNY's ability to strengthen the 

 4          diversity of the system and to ensure it is 

 5          an accessible institution for low-income, 

 6          often underrepresented minority New Yorkers.  

 7                 We appreciate that in past years the 

 8          Legislature has added millions to the 

 9          Governor’s requests for these programs, but 

10          thousands of EOP and EOC students are being 

11          forced to worry about the future of the 

12          programs they have come to rely on.  The 

13          budget deficit should not be erased at the 

14          expense of students who need a helping hand 

15          from the State of New York most.

16                 Thousands of SUNY Dreamers, 

17          undocumented students who come to the 

18          United States through no fault of their own, 

19          also have reason to worry.  Washington is 

20          letting them down, and many have reason to 

21          fear for the future in the only country they 

22          have ever known.  Albany should do its part 

23          to make up for Washington's failure by 

24          passing the DREAM Act, which is included in 


 1          the Governor’s proposed budget.  Every 

 2          New Yorker should have access to the Tuition 

 3          Assistance Program and to the Excelsior 

 4          Scholarship, including Dreamers.  The 

 5          Legislature should act to give these students 

 6          some measure of security in our state.

 7                 Students across the state are counting 

 8          on you to adequately fund the programs they 

 9          depend on.  Remember that all money 

10          appropriated towards higher education is an 

11          investment in our collective future.  As the 

12          Chancellor noted this morning, 73 percent of 

13          SUNY graduates stay in New York after they 

14          complete their education.  

15                 Every dollar invested in SUNY yields a 

16          five-to-one return, and the skills and 

17          knowledge accrued at SUNY power our state's 

18          economy.  Properly investing in SUNY now will 

19          yield tremendous benefits for New York State 

20          in the decades to come.  

21                 Once again, I would like to thank you 

22          very much for the opportunity to testify this 

23          afternoon, and we look forward to answering 

24          any questions you might have.


 1                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  From our Higher 

 2          Ed chair, Assemblywoman Glick.

 3                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Good to see you 

 4          both again.  Thank you very much for being 

 5          here.  

 6                 And obviously, most of your testimony 

 7          is totally consistent with concerns that the 

 8          Assembly majority has embraced for years and 

 9          years.  But I'd like to ask you a little bit 

10          about your perspective on student fees.  

11                 And we touched on this with the -- I 

12          think with the chancellor, but I'd like to 

13          understand from the students' perspective, 

14          because there was something that was said 

15          about they are generally not willy-nilly from 

16          one campus to another, but there isn't a 

17          consistency across the system.  They do 

18          apparently get approved by SUNY Central, but 

19          then they said something about with input 

20          from the students.  And I wasn't really sure 

21          what that meant, whether there's any survey 

22          that's done or whether it's that students 

23          have been asking for a particular activity 

24          and now you're going to get it but this is 


 1          what it's going to cost.  

 2                 So if you could talk a little bit 

 3          about that.

 4                 MR. COHEN:  Assemblymember, that's an 

 5          excellent question.  Thank you.  

 6                 "With input from students" is an 

 7          interesting way to put that.  Generally, 

 8          there is a student on such committees that 

 9          determine new fees, increases in fees -- I 

10          hate to use the word "token," but I can 

11          assure you there is not a majority population 

12          on these committees of students.

13                 It's interesting that you brought this 

14          issue up just today.  At our SUNY board 

15          meeting, I for a moment stood on my soapbox 

16          and argued against a new rule which is being 

17          implemented, which is to raise a fee, a 

18          broad-based fee, from $25 to $125 at our 

19          four -- at the four university centers.  What 

20          that means, Assemblymember, is increasing 

21          tuition an additional $100.  So we got a $200 

22          increase, they wanted a $300 increase, so 

23          they raised a fee from $25 to $125.  

24                 We don't often know where these fees 


 1          go, exactly.  There's a health fee, which we 

 2          know goes to the health center; there's an 

 3          intercollegiate athletics fee, which we know 

 4          goes to fund athletics.  Different campuses 

 5          have different fees.  There is something of a 

 6          similar sort of structure across campuses, 

 7          but oftentimes the university excellence fee 

 8          of $600 at university centers, it's called a 

 9          broad-based comprehensive fee, and they 

10          allocate that where they see fit.

11                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  So students who 

12          are going to the university centers, they 

13          have larger fees than someone going to 

14          Oneonta?

15                 MR. COHEN:  Absolutely.  As you know, 

16          we don't have differential -- per law, we 

17          don't have differential tuition in New York 

18          State, which is certainly a conversation we 

19          could have at whatever time you'd like.  We 

20          don't have differential tuition in New York, 

21          and so to ensure that the larger campuses 

22          have the resources and can offer the quality 

23          of programs that students have come to 

24          expect, they assess such fees as additional 


 1          means of revenue.

 2                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  What's been the 

 3          student experience in general from the 

 4          availability of health centers?

 5                 MR. COHEN:  The availability of?

 6                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Health centers.  

 7          You are at SUNY Albany -- most schools used 

 8          to have what they called the student 

 9          infirmary, now they have health centers.  I 

10          don't know if it's anything more than what 

11          was the student infirmary, but perhaps you 

12          can enlighten us.

13                 MR. COHEN:  That's a good question.  

14                 Different campuses -- again, depending 

15          on the size of the campus, two-year schools, 

16          community colleges versus comprehensives 

17          versus four-year.  University centers have 

18          oftentimes very different services.  At a 

19          school like Upstate or Downstate, there are 

20          medical schools, so they've got far more 

21          resources than a school like, you know, a 

22          smaller comprehensive may have.  

23                 Austin, do you want to talk a little 

24          bit about the University at Albany and what 


 1          they offer?

 2                 MR. OSTRO:  Sure.  So as a result of 

 3          the Affordable Care Act, there were some 

 4          changes to the fee policy.  Students used to 

 5          have an option to buy insurance through the 

 6          university.  Once the Affordable Care Act was 

 7          fully implemented, that was no longer 

 8          necessary, so students are now buying their 

 9          insurance either through the exchange or 

10          getting it through Medicaid or independently.  

11                 I know that our campuses assess a 

12          health fee to operate the health centers 

13          which is independent of the expense that 

14          students can be billed for the services 

15          provided by health centers.  I also know that 

16          the tele-counseling service which we spoke 

17          about in the beginning of the testimony is 

18          usually independent of health centers.  It 

19          can be in a separate place on campus, and 

20          there are coordinators paid by the campus 

21          administration to operate on-site and 

22          coordinate with the person, either Skyping or 

23          FaceTime or videoconferencing in to provide 

24          the service to students.  So that's the 


 1          extent of my knowledge about health centers.

 2                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Okay.  Well, I 

 3          guess we'll be talking to the system a little 

 4          bit more about health centers and how they 

 5          are funded and how -- now, in order to go to 

 6          one, you're required -- if you're going to 

 7          SUNY, you're required to have health 

 8          insurance in some form, right?

 9                 MR. COHEN:  Right.

10                 MR. OSTRO:  Yes.

11                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Okay.  We'll be 

12          looking into that and how that works out and 

13          whether they're actually billing your 

14          insurance or how they're operating.

15                 MR. COHEN:  That's an interesting 

16          question too, both for health centers as well 

17          as for counseling centers, and whether or not 

18          there's a difference between billing for 

19          counseling centers, billing for health 

20          centers.  We are looking into that.  We had a 

21          number of meetings with -- Assemblyman 

22          Pichardo was one of them, and others as well.  

23                 So we're looking into that as well.

24                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you.


 1                 MR. COHEN:  Let us know if you find 

 2          out first.

 3                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you very 

 4          much.

 5                 MR. OSTRO:  Thank you.  

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  And as 

 7          a former member of the SUNY Fredonia Student 

 8          Association, I'm glad to see student leaders 

 9          here today, and I think that you are very 

10          articulate.  You have great issues that 

11          you're talking about.  

12                 I'm very interested in the tele-health 

13          and the counseling also.  That's been sorely 

14          needed at campuses all across the state, and 

15          I'm glad to see that the program is 

16          implemented.  I think that it's something 

17          that we need to look at as a Legislature and 

18          build on that program, because there 

19          certainly are needs for mental health 

20          services all across the state but on the 

21          campuses also.  

22                 So I just want to say thank you and 

23          look forward to working with you in the 

24          future.


 1                 MR. COHEN:  Thank you, Senator.

 2                 MR. OSTRO:  Thank you, Senator.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Also I want to 

 4          join in thanking you for being here.  

 5                 I don't know if you were here when I 

 6          asked a question of the SUNY chancellor about 

 7          the childcare centers and the big cut that is 

 8          proposed in the budget.  I wonder if you have 

 9          had any experience, or is that something that 

10          you might want to survey some of the campuses 

11          to see whether -- what kind of needs 

12          currently exist, whether there should be not 

13          a decrease but actually an increase that 

14          would help some students be able to go 

15          forward with their education.

16                 MR. COHEN:  Madam Chair, thank you for 

17          that question.  

18                 We have included childcare funding in 

19          our legislative agenda for at least the last 

20          three years, and I know I've spoken with 

21          probably many of your offices about childcare 

22          funding.  It's critical.  And as the 

23          chancellor spoke about, the number of single 

24          mothers, single parents in general who are 


 1          enrolled in SUNY who rely on childcare 

 2          services on campuses -- particularly 

 3          community college campuses, but all across 

 4          the system -- is very high.  We've got a ton 

 5          of data to show that faculty members, staff 

 6          members, and community members rely on these 

 7          childcare centers.  

 8                 And similar to the opportunity 

 9          programs, it's not quite fair, and I think 

10          some of you may agree that there are cuts in 

11          the Executive Budget every year because 

12          there's the assumption that things like 

13          childcare funding and opportunity program 

14          funding are just going to be restored by the 

15          Legislature, causing you to use, you know, 

16          whatever capital is allocated.  And we would 

17          like to see at least a hold-harmless sort of 

18          system and then have the Legislature add 

19          money back, rather than you being forced to 

20          add it in.

21                 But we've seen the direct impact of 

22          insufficient funding for childcare centers.

23                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  So I would 

24          appreciate it if you can email us some of 


 1          that supporting data --

 2                 MR. COHEN:  Sure.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  -- that shows 

 4          the need on the various campuses.  As you 

 5          said, community college campuses in 

 6          particular.  

 7                 And thank you again for being here, 

 8          and look forward to continuing to work with 

 9          you through this year.  Thank you.

10                 MR. COHEN:  Thank you very much.

11                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.  

12                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Our final group 

13          for today, for the higher ed hearing, is the 

14          CUNY Student Assembly.  I believe there are 

15          three individuals:  Francesca Royal, vice 

16          chair, Jasper Diaz, delegate, and -- okay, 

17          there's a whole group of you.  And we almost 

18          lost one.  And I have Wali Ullah, delegate.

19                 If there are other people sitting at 

20          the table, if you could just introduce 

21          yourselves.

22                 MS. ROYAL:  Greetings, members of the 

23          New York State Legislature.  My name is 

24          Francesca Royal.  I am a junior at Hunter 


 1          College at the City University of New York, 

 2          double majoring in economics and public 

 3          policy, with a concentration in education 

 4          policy.  I am a proud member of the 19th 

 5          Assembly District, represented by 

 6          Assemblymember Edward Ra, and the 5th Senate 

 7          District, represented by Senator Carl 

 8          Marcellino. 

 9                 I have the privilege of serving as the 

10          vice Chair for fiscal affairs for the City 

11          University of New York University Student 

12          Senate, also known as CUNY USS.  

13                 USS is the elected student governance 

14          organization responsible for representing the 

15          interests of the 500,000 students that attend 

16          CUNY.  We are charged with preserving the 

17          accessibility, affordability, and excellence 

18          in higher education.

19                 On behalf of USS, we thank you for 

20          providing us this opportunity to share the 

21          student experience.  We are here today to 

22          articulate the needs and concerns affecting 

23          CUNY students, and how initiatives outlined 

24          in Governor Andrew Cuomo's Executive Budget 


 1          proposal for fiscal year 2019 directly impact 

 2          the accessibility, affordability, and 

 3          excellence in higher education at campuses in 

 4          CUNY system.  

 5                 I will begin by providing an update on 

 6          the state of student affairs across our 

 7          system.  At the end of my testimony, I will 

 8          share USS's recommendations that will offer 

 9          you ways to address the issues.  Then my 

10          colleagues will share the experience of 

11          students at community colleges and at senior 

12          colleges.  

13                 We hope these testimonies will inspire 

14          you to take immediate action to ensure CUNY 

15          remains an engine of social mobility to 

16          achieve the American dream in the land of 

17          opportunity.

18                 In 2017, Governor Cuomo took steps to 

19          advance the conversation of improving higher 

20          education when the Governor proposed a plan 

21          that would make CUNY and SUNY tuition-free 

22          for middle class families.  In addition, the  

23          State Legislature restored and expanded 

24          support for opportunity programs and 


 1          services.  We were excited about the 

 2          initiatives that would make CUNY more 

 3          affordable and accessible.  

 4                 However, it was disheartening to learn 

 5          that there would be a $200 increase in 

 6          tuition for students at senior colleges, that 

 7          the maintenance of effort bill would be 

 8          vetoed by the Governor, and part-time 

 9          scholarships for community college students 

10          would not be made available on time.  These 

11          issues increase student debt, hinder student 

12          success, and impact the quality of services 

13          provided by CUNY faculty and staff due to the 

14          lack of funding to support students' needs.

15                 Although CUNY is considered one of the 

16          most affordable universities in the country, 

17          students still face barriers which hinder 

18          student success and stifle social mobility. 

19          The cost of living in New York City is 

20          expensive.  There aren't enough healthy and 

21          affordable food options, and transportation 

22          is costly, unreliable, and inadequate. 

23          College students should not face shelter and 

24          food insecurities which also lead to health 


 1          issues.

 2                 This legislative session, Governor 

 3          Cuomo is committed to expanding food pantry 

 4          services to all CUNY campuses to address food 

 5          insecurities.  We are excited that CUNY has 

 6          been at the forefront of this educational 

 7          initiative by providing food pantries and 

 8          food vouchers at various colleges for several 

 9          years.  This additional support will help 

10          CUNY serve more students.  

11                 Students, however, are frustrated 

12          about continuous increases in tuition.  We 

13          are looking forward to the expansion of the 

14          Excelsior Scholarship and implementation of 

15          the part-time scholarship for community 

16          college students.  During this session we 

17          would like to participate in discussions to 

18          improve the Excelsior Scholarship and other 

19          financial aid programs.

20                 We are disappointed with the 

21          performance of the federal government, which 

22          has led to a government shutdown.  We cannot 

23          depend on the federal government, as the 

24          state of our union is under attack.  We need 


 1          the State of New York to act swiftly to 

 2          protect our democracy and members of 

 3          immigrant communities and enact the state 

 4          DREAM Act.  We need leadership in the state 

 5          now more than ever.

 6                 The University Student Senate is eager 

 7          to work with members of the Legislature and 

 8          the Governor’s office to improve the quality 

 9          of life for all New Yorkers.  On behalf of 

10          the 500,000 CUNY students, USS requests that 

11          the New York State Legislature take the 

12          following actions to restore and enhance the 

13          accessibility, affordability, and excellence 

14          in higher education at the greatest urban 

15          university in the world.

16                 Number one, reject the proposed 

17          $200 tuition increase and provide 

18          $31.3 million in support to a tuition freeze 

19          for the 2018-2019 academic year.

20                 Number two, restore funding to support 

21          opportunity programs and services to ensure 

22          CUNY remains diverse and fully inclusive.

23                 Number three, pass the New York State 

24          DREAM Act.


 1                 Number four, provide the necessary 

 2          funding to support capital projects to ensure 

 3          CUNY facilities are hospitable.

 4                 Number five, adopt an enhanced 

 5          maintenance of effort to adequately fund 

 6          CUNY’s operating budget.

 7                 Thank you for your time and 

 8          consideration.  

 9                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Thank you.

10                 Next?

11                 MR. DIAZ:  Greetings, members of the 

12          New York State Legislature.  My name is 

13          Jasper Diaz, and I have the privilege of 

14          serving as Baruch College's University 

15          Student Senator and delegate to the City 

16          University of New York University Student 

17          Senate, CUNY USS. 

18                 I am a proud resident of the 72nd 

19          State Assembly District, represented by State 

20          Assemblymember Carmen de la Rosa, and the 

21          31st State Senate District, currently 

22          represented by State Senator Marisol 

23          Alcantara.

24                 I am pursuing a bachelor's of science 


 1          in public affairs at Baruch College's Marxe 

 2          School of Public and International Affairs, 

 3          with a minor in political science and 

 4          certificate in survey research.  I have 

 5          aspirations of attending graduate school and 

 6          one day pursuing a career in public service 

 7          to help address the needs of members in my 

 8          community.

 9                 My experience at Baruch College has 

10          been rewarding yet challenging, due to the 

11          lack of an enhanced maintenance of effort 

12          also known as MOE.  This has negatively 

13          impacted the quality of services at senior 

14          colleges.  Buildings and classrooms are 

15          overcrowded, and there aren't enough faculty 

16          and staff members available to address 

17          student needs.  The quality of our 

18          educational experience has diminished because 

19          our professors are overworked, teaching 

20          several courses within highly populated 

21          classes.  The student service lines are long.  

22          Students can spend hours waiting to see an 

23          academic advisor, career counselor, financial 

24          aid specialist or tutor. 


 1                 Furthermore, the continuous trend of 

 2          tuition increases has put our students under 

 3          stress.  Tuition has increased by at least 

 4          $250 annually in the last seven out of eight 

 5          years.  We have made tremendous sacrifices to 

 6          complete our studies, and students deserve at 

 7          least a two-year break.

 8                 We are very thankful for the Excelsior 

 9          Scholarship.  We still need aid to cover book 

10          expenses.  We still need aid to cover living 

11          expenses.  We still need aid to cover 

12          transportation expenses.  It would be truly  

13          wonderful if we were able to get a 

14          reduced-fare MetroCard to ensure that 

15          students can get to classes throughout the 

16          semester.  Our students are not able to 

17          adequately use the college library and labs 

18          because students cannot afford to come to 

19          campus on days they don't have classes.  

20                 In addition, food insecurity is a 

21          crisis that is affecting students as well.  

22          Over the past several years, CUNY has begun 

23          to address this issue at community colleges.  

24          However, there aren't enough resources to 


 1          support the expansion at all CUNY senior 

 2          colleges. 

 3                 We thank Governor Andrew Cuomo for 

 4          addressing the growing and rampant issue of 

 5          food insecurity on college campuses by 

 6          mandating that every public college in 

 7          New York State establishes a food pantry.  We 

 8          would especially like to thank the New York 

 9          State Legislature for fulfilling capital 

10          budget allocations for the fiscal year 

11          2017-2018, finally initiating the first 

12          five-year phase of bringing Baruch College's 

13          1929-era Lawrence and Eris Field Building at 

14          I7 Lexington Avenue into the 21st century.  

15          We must make sure CUNY has state-of-the-art 

16          facilities to offer students an environment 

17          in which they can learn.

18                 CUNY senior colleges need more support 

19          to assist students in earning a college 

20          degree.  The University Student Senate is 

21          eager to work with members of the Legislature 

22          and the Governor's office to improve the 

23          quality of affordable public higher education 

24          for all New Yorkers. 


 1                 Thank you for your time and 

 2          consideration.

 3                 MR. ULLAH:  Greetings to all members 

 4          of the New York State Legislature.  My name 

 5          is Wali Ullah, and I am a student at Bronx 

 6          Community College at the City University of 

 7          New York, majoring in political science.  I 

 8          am hoping to transfer to the City College of 

 9          New York to pursue a bachelor's in political 

10          science and economics, with hopes of pursuing 

11          a career in grassroots organizing and public 

12          service. 

13                 I am a proud resident of the 80th 

14          State Assembly District, which currently does 

15          not have an elected representative, and the 

16          34th State Senate District, which is 

17          currently represented by Senator Jeffrey 

18          Klein. 

19                 I have the privilege of serving as the 

20          Bronx Community College delegate in the 

21          University Student Senate, as well as the 

22          executive officer of legal and legislative 

23          Affairs of the Student Government Association 

24          at Bronx Community College.


 1                 I would like to extend the warmest of 

 2          gratitudes to CUNY for providing the 

 3          opportunity for me to serve in student 

 4          government, the students who elected me as 

 5          their representative, and the New York State 

 6          Legislature for allowing me to testify today. 

 7                 In my testimony, I will share my 

 8          experience and the experience of other 

 9          students at Bronx Community College, also 

10          known as BCC.  

11                 As we all know, community colleges 

12          play a vital role in our economy.  Community 

13          college is the platform which offers workers, 

14          parents, the younger, older and first 

15          generation students access to higher 

16          education.  However, society categorizes some 

17          of these students as non-traditional. 

18          However, it is this very same demographic of 

19          students that is so common in CUNY.  Due to 

20          the community college 24/7 course schedule, 

21          students have the option to attend college in 

22          early mornings, late nights, weekends, and 

23          online while fulfilling other 

24          responsibilities.  Students prefer to attend 


 1          community colleges because the tuition rate 

 2          is much lower than four-year colleges, and 

 3          community colleges have a more flexible 

 4          course schedule.

 5                 I began my journey at BCC as a 

 6          part-time student.  I have not been able to 

 7          enroll full-time due to a lack of financial 

 8          resources and other external obligations.  I 

 9          receive no financial aid, as my parents are 

10          undocumented and I have had difficulty paying 

11          for -- they've had difficulty paying taxes in 

12          the past due to their immigration status.  I 

13          do not work, either, as many of the job 

14          opportunities I have sought thus far require 

15          a higher level of experience.  

16                 My story is that of many community 

17          college students, as nearly 40 percent of all 

18          CUNY community college students are part-time 

19          students, according to the CUNY Office of 

20          Institutional Research.  Most students that 

21          attend part-time would love to take more 

22          classes.  However, there isn't enough 

23          financial aid for students that attend 

24          part-time. 


 1                 In addition, due to a lack of funding 

 2          for on-campus childcare services, students 

 3          are forced to work more hours to cover the 

 4          costs for child care services off campus. 

 5                 I would like to thank Governor Cuomo 

 6          for his efforts to make BCC more accessible 

 7          and affordable.  As in 2017, Governor Cuomo 

 8          created a part-time scholarship to provide 

 9          aid for students enrolled at CUNY community 

10          colleges.  Students were excited to learn 

11          about this new level of support that would 

12          help them earn their degree.  However, we 

13          were unable to apply because the application 

14          was not available in the fall.  This 

15          prevented some students from enrolling in the 

16          fall 2017 and spring 2018 semesters. 

17                 The Excelsior Scholarship is great for 

18          students who have the ability to enroll 

19          full-time.  However, we need support to help 

20          part-time students.

21                 Next, I would like to talk about the 

22          Accelerated Studies in Associate Programs, 

23          otherwise known as ASAP.  ASAP is a program 

24          available in every CUNY community college 


 1          which provides students resources such as 

 2          MetroCards, book vouchers, and smaller class 

 3          sizes to better meet student needs.  The ASAP 

 4          model has received praise nationwide, as it 

 5          has doubled three-year graduation rates.

 6                 Hence, community college students are 

 7          requesting that the ASAP model be expanded to 

 8          all CUNY senior colleges, to ensure current 

 9          ASAP students have a seamless transition when 

10          they transfer to earn their bachelor's 

11          degree.

12                 We thank CUNY for leading the effort 

13          to address food insecurity by offering food 

14          pantries at community colleges, and we thank 

15          the Governor for wanting to expand this 

16          program.  We appreciate all the support that 

17          we have received from the Legislature.  

18          However, despite the apparent strides that we 

19          have recently made in the advancement of 

20          higher education in State of New York, there 

21          is still much ground that remains to be 

22          covered.  We must not forget about the needs 

23          of the diverse community we serve, especially 

24          in our community colleges.


 1                 Thank you for your time and 

 2          consideration.

 3                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Thank you.

 4                 MS. ROYAL:  Thank you, and we can take 

 5          any questions now.

 6                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Assemblyman 

 7          Pichardo.

 8                 ASSEMBLYMAN PICHARDO:  Thank you, 

 9          Madam Chair.  I will be brief.

10                 As the proud representative of Bronx 

11          Community College in the 86th Assembly 

12          District, thank you so much for your time and 

13          your leadership on this issue.  

14                 I couldn't agree with you more.  I 

15          think Excelsior was a step in the right 

16          direction, but it has to consider that not 

17          all students can attend college full-time and 

18          have other obligations, either familial or 

19          professional or otherwise, and we need to 

20          make sure that we do a better job of 

21          expanding opportunities for students and 

22          making it cheaper for all students to attend 

23          college.  

24                 So I appreciate your testimony this 


 1          afternoon, and thank you for your leadership 

 2          on this issue.

 3                 MR. ULLAH:  Thank you, Assemblyman 

 4          Pichardo.

 5                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Let me say that 

 6          I very much appreciated that you identified 

 7          five concrete things in your testimony.  So 

 8          to some extent, that undermines any questions 

 9          we might -- because you actually did, ahead 

10          of time, identify what it is you're asking us 

11          to do.

12                 MS. ROYAL:  Thank you.

13                 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GLICK:  Thank you.

14                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  Senator Savino.

15                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you.  I want to 

16          thank all of you for coming and presenting 

17          your testimony, and the SUNY students as well 

18          before.  

19                 You all mentioned the issue of food 

20          insecurity, and I'm just surprised how -- I 

21          guess I shouldn't be -- but how prevalent it 

22          seems to be.  

23                 But since CUNY does have the one-stop 

24          program -- what's it called?


 1                 MR. ULLAH:  It's called Single Stop.

 2                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Thank you, Single 

 3          Stop.  

 4                 Have you had any experience with how 

 5          well it works?  How do students encounter it?  

 6          And how successful are they at actually 

 7          connecting students with potential sources of 

 8          aid they would be entitled to, do you know?

 9                 MR. ULLAH:  So as far as I know, I am 

10          not a recipient of aid of Single Stop, 

11          although I have been to their office numerous 

12          times.  They have a food pantry, they provide 

13          tax resources for students who are looking to 

14          file their taxes, there is generally like --  

15          if you make more than $50,000, then you are 

16          ineligible for, you know, tax aid from -- 

17          they essentially help you file your taxes.  

18                 Currently, the Single Stop chapter at 

19          my college is organizing a winter clothing 

20          drive, pop-up drive, which is around January 

21          30th and January 31st.  So essentially they 

22          do their best to help students that are in 

23          need and -- you know, I just gave a couple of 

24          examples of resources that you find.


 1                 SENATOR SAVINO:  To the best of your 

 2          knowledge, does it require students to go in 

 3          search of Single Stop, or are they connected 

 4          at the point of enrollment that they might be 

 5          benefited by visiting the Single Stop?  

 6                 And if you don't know the answer, 

 7          that's fine.  I'm just trying to figure out 

 8          how well it works, how it could be replicated 

 9          in other colleges, whether they be public or 

10          non-public colleges, and the best way to make 

11          sure that students become aware that there's 

12          possible benefits that they might be entitled 

13          to.  Again, if you don't know the answer, 

14          that's fine.

15                 MS. ROYAL:  I personally don't know 

16          the answer, I'm sorry.  But we would be happy 

17          to follow up with you with an email with a 

18          more detailed response.

19                 SENATOR SAVINO:  Great.  Thank you.

20                 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN:  Again, thank 

21          you all for being here and spending the day 

22          with us.  

23                 This concludes the Higher Education 

24          hearing for the joint budget committees.  And 


 1          for those listening and the members of the 

 2          Ways and Means Committee who are here, we'll 

 3          see you again tomorrow morning at 9:30 for 

 4          Housing.

 5                 CHAIRWOMAN YOUNG:  We get to do it all 

 6          over again tomorrow.

 7                 But I want to thank the student 

 8          leaders for being here today.  It shows a lot 

 9          of initiative.  We're very proud of your 

10          accomplishments, and I know that you all have 

11          bright futures.  So thank you.

12                 MS. ROYAL:  Thank you very much.

13                 MR. ULLAH:  Thank you so much.

14                 MR. DIAZ:  Thank you.  

15                 (Whereupon, the budget hearing concluded 

16          at 4:35 p.m.)